2011-04-01: 00:01:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:03:07 Well that's the scariest freenode /notice I've ever seen :P 00:03:55 eek. well it _is_ on freenode's own blog... 00:04:38 (not to mention one other obvious fact) 00:04:56 -!- TLUL has joined. 00:04:57 I haven't even managed to load the damned blog page yet. 00:05:10 It's almost assuredly an April fool's day prank. 00:05:22 But I was talking about the hearts :P 00:05:26 I don't want a network to love me that much :P 00:05:32 well since everyone else got it at the same time... 00:06:11 Is it the blog that's slow or my connection? 00:06:21 it didn't load for me either 00:06:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:06:53 as i said, everyone on freenode obviously got the notice near simultaneously 00:07:09 (it's currently 0:06 UTC) 00:07:21 Yuh 00:08:51 * oerjan officially declares antialiasing to be evil http://www.darthsanddroids.net/heists/0050.html 00:11:18 also, that is probably one of the most meta comics, ever 00:13:01 hm they've forgotten the favicon this time 00:15:19 * Sgeo huggles nyud.net 00:15:39 argh you fiend 00:17:05 -!- augur has joined. 00:17:28 why the heck does neither nyud.net nor www.nyud.net work 00:18:09 oerjan: Because you don't support the libc.so fund :P 00:18:27 http://blog.freenode.net.nyud.net/2011/04/important-service-announcement-regarding-defocus/ worked for me 00:18:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:19:03 Sgeo: yes but that's rather useless for someone who wants to visit the nyud.net homepage to find out exactly what their redirection syntax _was_ again 00:19:39 you bastard nerds and your photographic command syntax memory 00:20:22 well that wasn't precisely fast either... 00:45:12 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 00:45:53 -!- augur has joined. 00:48:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:56:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:08:51 -!- augur has joined. 01:32:45 <-- most obnoxious nick ever? 01:40:38 libc\x2Eso: nope 01:40:47 :( 01:40:47 "(-------------------------" is 01:40:55 Invalid nick 01:41:04 libc\x2Eso: not this network. I have seen this before 01:41:10 Ah :P 01:41:15 Yeah, it could certainly be valid elsewhere. 01:41:41 libc\x2Eso: nearly as bad: "TheLongestNamePossibleOnThisServer" 01:41:49 Hyuk 01:45:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:54:05 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:54:05 -!- glogbot has joined. 01:59:51 -!- lament has joined. 02:28:16 -!- augur has joined. 02:34:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:14:41 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 03:20:12 -!- augur has joined. 03:29:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:36:40 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:44:15 -!- radicalpumpkin has joined. 03:54:55 -!- wareya has joined. 04:05:05 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:41:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:58:46 -!- radicalpumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:59:03 -!- radicalpumpkin has joined. 04:59:11 -!- radicalpumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 04:59:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 04:59:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:20:55 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:27:17 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:43:23 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:50:28 -!- Zuu has joined. 05:51:10 -!- cal153 has joined. 05:58:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:11:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:43:33 http://mail.google.com/mail/help/motion.html 06:45:47 Oh, it's that day again. 06:46:05 glorious friday! 06:47:04 i see reddit's r/circlejerk took some inspiration from r/trees 06:52:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:07:44   07:15:02 is there a name for the type of symmetry "the distance from a fixed center point to the boundary of the shape is the same in both direction x and -x for all choices of vector x"? 07:16:51 radial 07:23:11 no, radial is stronger 07:23:34 it's 180 degree rotational symmetry, don't recall if it has a shorter name 07:23:40 *degrees 07:24:30 how is radial stronger? 07:25:05 radial is rotation by any angle, or at least a smaller one... 07:25:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_%28physical_attractiveness%29 07:25:42 right and the angle depends on the type of symmetry 07:25:47 on the number of rays 07:25:50 in this case, 2 rays 07:26:40 2-fold rotational symmetry, says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_symmetry 07:27:55 i think radial symmetry just isn't a mathematical term 07:28:19 oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_symmetry lists 5-fold rotational symmetry as a type of radial symmetry. 07:28:27 yeah it seemed to be more biological 07:29:19 I did sort of assume that "radial symmetry" would mean "depends only on distance", purely based on the name, but I guess it's not a real thing. 07:30:58 it's certainly a real thing 07:31:11 that's circular or spherical 07:39:12 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:41:30 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers 07:43:49 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:52:21 -!- augur has joined. 07:53:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:54:38 wild guess: because it's wrong? 07:55:50 a very plausible guess. but incorrect. 08:00:05 right, the poster just failed to encode it in the format expected by the compilers 08:00:48 ...i think elliott must be right about those swedes. 08:03:20 I liked the second answer, though it was slightly botched by trying to talk about "text files" 08:23:09 ISO/IEC 14882:1998(E), 2.1p1 subclause 1: "Physical source file characters are mapped, in an implementation-defined manner, to the basic source character set --"; if he's read the standard twice in its entirety already, I would expect him to have noticed this part and realize you can't really expect to be able to write a program based on the standard alone, without considering the implementation. 08:27:34 boring, haven't seen any likely april fool hoaxes yet 08:33:30 Our staff@ mailing list got this: "Please find the Springer marketing campaign below. It seems you can get a 30% Springer author discount from registration fees at selected conferences with LNCS proceedings, but more importantly, you may get a conference review waiver coupon, which enables you to bypass the peer review process in some selected conferences and get an article published directly. This is a nice offer especially for students. See details below." 08:37:58 wtf 08:38:02 no peer review 08:38:03 wtf 08:38:04 no peer review 08:38:06 wtf 08:38:17 no peer review 08:38:18 wtf 08:38:32 no peer review 08:38:32 wtf 08:44:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:45:31 coppro: Context: april fool hoaxes. 08:47:42 I know 08:55:54 ' oh, "dleep" was a typo for "sleep"' not a typo 08:56:20 although i'm not sure that's relevant 09:01:02 "This is a nice offer especially for students." :D 09:01:26 thank god i didn't go to work today, i had no idea it's april already 09:13:31 the math society at UW just adopted a new set of bylaws yesterday. I sent an email out to the mailing list at about 1:30 saying that the version I'd published earlier was wrong and due to some procedural technicalities, we had to adopt this alternate version. it's a work of comedy 09:34:14 DNSSEC going nowhere again: .com is now DNSSEC-signed. :-) 09:35:47 Anybody got the freenode prize yet? 09:36:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:41:52 -!- oklopol has quit. 09:43:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:44:04 -!- Zwaarddijk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:45:11 -!- Zwaarddijk has joined. 10:31:39 Ilari: Do you happen to know how much breaks if you turn DNSSEC validation on? (I mean in the usual way where "insecure" zones are allowed, but if a zone has a DS in the parent then it will need to be properly working all the way down.) 10:34:32 Well, I don't hit that a wide variety of sites, but it seems that very little breaks. 10:35:23 Mhm. Well, I guess that might be either because everyone's doing DNSSEC right, or because no-one's doing DNSSEC at all. 10:36:36 Well, not many are doing DNSSEC, but virtually all that are are doing it right. 10:44:18 65 TLDs have TAs in the root zone (zone serial appears to be 2011040100). 11:01:51 .fi root has been DNSSEC-signed since late 2010, but if I understood correctly it should now be possible to do DS "delegations" to actual zones too. (At least this newspost says after "31.3.") 11:15:02 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:15:54 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:28:41 -!- wareya has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:32:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:34:34 -!- elliott has joined. 11:34:40 The MOTD: so gay. 11:39:38 hmm, I'm not entirely convinced it's even possible to do an April Fool's joke on Esolang 11:39:43 it wouldn't look any different from the rest of the site 11:40:20 07:54:38: wild guess: because it's wrong? 11:40:20 07:55:50: a very plausible guess. but incorrect. 11:40:20 08:00:05: right, the poster just failed to encode it in the format expected by the compilers 11:40:20 08:00:48: ...i think elliott must be right about those swedes. 11:40:25 oerjan: i concur in this case! 11:40:40 what is elliott's idea about swedes? 11:40:50 that they're all weird and crazy and should be avoided 11:40:55 (in a bad way) 11:41:04 ais523: turn esolang into a site about tongues in which magick spelles are cast'e 11:41:09 esoteric languages! 11:41:19 that's all i can think of :) 11:41:29 elliott: i take it you are also r/trees inspired? 11:41:30 (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/‎; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins) 11:41:42 oerjan: i'm logreading :D 11:42:13 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 11:42:19 elliott: well i was referring to your AF suggestion for here 11:42:28 or the wiki, i guess 11:42:32 oerjan: yes, that's where i saw you mentioning the /r/circlejerk//r/trees thing 11:42:40 (yes, that's a slash separating two /r/ paths, problem?) 11:43:10 NO PROBLEM 11:43:52 http://i.imgur.com/QlGpd.gif <-- this wins forever 11:43:59 (on the stackoverflow question) 11:44:01 *from 11:45:26 ais523: you might like ^ 11:45:41 as an expert in abusing ms paint for computational purposes >:D 11:46:30 what is that making? a piet program or something? 11:46:35 oerjan: keep watching 11:46:43 oerjan: (or refresh if it gets cut off) 11:46:56 it's so damn slow on my computer 11:47:00 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:47:06 oerjan: download it then watch 11:47:15 (file -> save as :P) 11:48:15 elliott: I take it that wasn't you doing that, given that you'd be unlikely to be using Windows Vista or 7 11:48:21 (although that's not completely implausible0 11:48:21 happy mailman mailing list reminder's day yesterday! 11:48:25 s/0/)/ 11:48:31 ais523: indeed, it's from the stack overflow question that you may or may not have seen 11:48:46 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers 11:48:49 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:49:23 * elliott tries to think of a sufficiently funny question to join #r.trees and say 11:49:25 elliott: did it have a BOM? 11:49:28 I'm guessing from the URL 11:49:39 oh, it's an image of a program 11:49:48 it's a hand-crafted drawing! 11:50:08 so the typography isn't as good as in the standard document, but C++ compilers can hardly expect such anal calligraphy! 11:50:17 (This marks the first time the phrase "anal calligraphy" has ever been uttered.) 11:51:24 ais523: so did esr insist on making the new C-INTERCAL release himself? :P 11:52:30 no 11:52:36 I'll do it myself, a little later 11:52:46 "Last time I chose to program in Python, because I love the language. But I used some Windows-specific libraries and some people were frustrated they could not see the program run on their machine. So this time I'm going to use Java. It's arguably less expressive than Python, but I know that the GUI and window interface is quite portable" 11:52:54 sadly, not april fools 11:53:10 (admittedly java.awt.Robot probably doesn't have a portable Python analogue) 11:55:40 (This marks the first time the phrase "anal calligraphy" has ever been uttered.) <-- about 103 hits, says google 11:55:58 oerjan, googling "anal calligraphy" since 2011 11:56:05 OR EVEN EARLIER ??? 11:56:21 "Buy a handmade custom "Anal" calligraphy wall scroll here!" 11:56:39 i don't _think_ i've done it before. 11:57:00 that phrase has at least two possible meanings, i note 11:57:17 O RALLY 11:57:40 i don't have a reddit spore, i feel so inferior 11:57:47 er. 11:57:48 mold. 11:58:08 i don't get to type annoyingly :( 11:58:13 poor elliott, all jealous of I_RAPE_CATS 11:58:44 * elliott waits for someone who has never been on reddit to read this log 11:59:18 this surely was not the best time for him to have to defend his actions... 11:59:39 have you seen his userpage? 11:59:42 http://www.reddit.com/user/I_RAPE_CATS 11:59:46 ~9873493. A£|F"$F 12:00:27 not in a few hours 12:00:41 i see he got online 12:01:03 ooh, meaningless cloaks 12:01:12 "THERE IS A PRIZE. IT’S WORTH IT. HINT: MOTD." 12:01:19 where do we send answers? 12:01:22 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:01:27 -!- elliott has joined. 12:01:35 "VmlldyBwYWdlIHNvdXJjZSwgeW91bmcgZ3Jhc3Nob3BwZXIu" 12:01:38 uh 12:01:39 base36? 12:01:40 is the april fool that there actually _is_ a prize? 12:01:56 elliott: base64 12:02:02 hm right 12:02:14 I couldn't tell what the next stage was about though, so I left it at that 12:02:43 view page source 12:03:04 why am i helping you fuckers, i want @unicorn/ or whatever 12:03:28 the blog post won't load now :) 12:03:37 I can paste it for you 12:03:43 how does I_RAPE_CATS manage to get _less_ mold? he had 53 before and someone claimed to have seen 54 12:03:54 Deewiant: Sure (assuming it's the new one), thanks 12:04:04 oerjan: they wear off? 12:04:10 oerjan: or maybe you can spend KARMA to get rid of them :-D 12:04:14 heh 12:04:15 elliott: http://sprunge.us/HMGb 12:04:22 (The relevant bit) 12:04:33 i was assuming they last for today... 12:04:38 Looks like a trivial cipher 12:04:43 Un = An, probably 12:04:51 OTOH this is close to my laziness limit 12:04:57 It crossed mine 12:05:08 it started past mine 12:05:09 I'll ask what the prize cloak is in #freenode :-D 12:08:00 they are throttling blog on purpose 12:08:00 to get attention 12:08:09 wish this guy would shut up so my important question would get answered 12:11:09 and all of us say something 12:11:10 for aprill fools joke 12:11:10 but we act serious 12:11:10 but something bad hmm 12:11:10 yeh good to see this is a great help channel 12:11:10 i will say something and you ay yes i have heard 12:11:12 and act serious 12:11:14 haha :D 12:11:16 what im doing here with kids omg 12:18:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:21:24 "Fanny scratching in 18th-century London's Cock Lane was so notorious that interested bystanders often blocked the street. It became the focus of a religious controversy between Methodists and orthodox Anglicans, and was reported on by celebrities of the period such as Samuel Johnson." 12:21:27 (--wp fa) 12:21:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:22:42 I hate notpr0n... 12:23:29 21:52:00: I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P 12:23:45 Hmm, it's plausible APT Guy actually would have paid for an address. 12:24:53 WOULD have? 12:25:05 I thought the auction was over. 12:25:36 FSVO over 12:25:51 16:56:27 Well that's the scariest freenode /notice I've ever seen :P 12:25:53 What was it? 12:25:58 See raw log. 12:26:20 So the BritClique so thoroughly dominates WP now that all the April Fool's humor on the front page are nothing but references to UK culture? I'm guessing the argument is "Well this is the english language wikipedia, I'm sure the german language WP has German references, etc. etc..." Sorry to inform you, but other people speak english too. As if it wasn't obvious. Jersey John (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC) 12:26:24 ITS A PONSCIRAPICY 12:26:45 "On another note, I'm quickly growing tired of the undue snarkiness and senseless arrogance of the Brit Clique, as I call them, here on Wiki... It's no wonder a bunch morons a few years back went and made Conservapedia. Not that I like that place either. Plus I'm banned from it... lol..." --[[User:Jros83]] 12:27:10 elliott, I can't find that notice in the raw log for today or yesterday... 12:27:18 Phantom_Hoover: Try hardesr. 12:27:19 *harder. 12:27:44 Nope. 12:27:49 oerjan: what kind of horrific person gave wil wheaton 19 molds. WAS IT YOU? 12:28:01 that's better than the toilet paper thing 12:28:10 elliott: i don't have a reddit account 12:28:21 ais523: ? 12:28:27 oerjan: well that's what you _would_ say isn't it. 12:28:40 elliott: remember when the page about toilet paper orientation was discussed in #esoteric 12:28:46 I said it might make a good april fool's FA 12:28:51 oh yes 12:29:11 ais523: wait, i've figured out a good esolang AF 12:29:13 (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/‎; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins) 12:29:14 leave this here! 12:29:18 spam never gets left! 12:29:25 that's not a good AF at all 12:29:32 IT'S HILARIOUS 12:30:09 Hmm, did I_RAPE_CATS actually manipulate that stupid video thing? 12:30:21 * elliott moves [[Fugue Compiler]]. As an April FOol's or something 12:30:43 Phantom_Hoover: well at a minimum it appears he didn't choose it randomly as he was supposed to 12:30:43 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 12:30:49 libc\x2Eso: YOU LOST HA H 12:30:50 A 12:30:54 SHOULDA BID HIGHER 12:30:58 It's not over, but it's lookin' that way. 12:31:11 Aww. 12:31:16 libc\x2Eso: Put more money into it 12:31:25 elliott: I will, 24 hours before the end. 12:31:38 libc\x2Eso: BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE _EXPECTING_ YOU TO DO 12:31:42 How long does this damn auction *last*? 12:31:53 It's only been on for a couple of days :P 12:32:14 what's it at now? 12:32:24 also, I insist on parsing your nick as libc \x2 Eso 12:32:54 $575 :( 12:33:06 that's ridiculous 12:33:09 http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=helvetica 12:33:30 NOT FUNNY GOOGLE 12:33:32 NOT FUNNY IN THE SLIGHTEST 12:35:25 what's going on if you google "Helvetica"? 12:35:54 It goes to Comic Sans. 12:35:55 ais523: open in your unrestricted browser 12:36:01 Phantom_Hoover: YOU: SUCK 12:36:27 Incidentally, I nearly made an accidental April fool today. 12:36:39 BUT YOU SPOILED IT 12:36:45 :D 12:37:31 * elliott installs autojump 12:37:37 that's ridiculous // OK, seriously, are you the poorest man alive? X-D 12:37:54 ah comic sans gives the same 12:38:03 libc\x2Eso: 500 is a very big number 12:38:05 but not arial 12:38:06 it's hard to even visualise 12:38:19 500 is trivial to visualise :P 12:38:34 £500 would be overpriced for a new computer nowadays 12:38:40 although with dollars it's more reasonable 12:38:43 And libc\x2Eso is a privileged douchebag for thinking balking at spending half a thousand dollars on a domain name makes you the poorest man alive :P 12:39:11 It's 2/3rds of a plane ticket, somewhat less than one month's rent, considerably less than the sum of one month's bills. 12:39:23 ...for you. 12:39:41 well, I consider plane travel so expensive that people who require it are insnae 12:39:43 *insane 12:39:50 and people who reimburse plane travel costs more so 12:41:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:41:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:41:52 Oh god Gregor's being an idiot about money again isn't he. 12:42:19 ais523, come to think of it, what *did* you do with that money you got from the bit of Wolfram's ego you heroically chipped off. 12:42:32 Phantom_Hoover: bought a laptop, and put the rest in the bank 12:42:32 * elliott tries to find a source download of the bitcoin client 12:42:40 Deewiant: http://p.zem.fi/d98k 12:42:58 and lived off it for a few years 12:43:17 ais523, a laptop would barely *dent* the prize money you got. 12:43:43 fizzie: What. 12:43:47 400 out of 12000 is about 1/30 12:43:49 that's more than just a dent 12:45:00 No. No it isn't. 12:45:14 "My lovely horse, you're a pony no more" // Pony: Not a name for horse babies :P 12:45:59 libc\x2Eso, you've presumably never seen Father Ted, being an American and all. 12:46:13 libc\x2Eso: i cry foal! 12:46:36 Phantom_Hoover: 30 dents don't normally completely destroy something 12:47:10 libc\x2Eso, also, what is your *job*? 12:47:29 Phantom_Hoover: I'm a grad student. In the summers I usually intern here and there. 12:47:30 You're a grad student, I thought they had, like, negative money. 12:47:54 I'm a grad student with fiscal responsibility, I have plenty of money. And yes, occasionally buying something nice for myself still factors into fiscal responsibility. 12:48:25 Since I don't own a Wii, a PS3 and an Xbox 360 (or any of them for that matter), the price some grad students pay to own all three easily covers libc.so right there :P 12:48:30 Yes. Fiscal responsibility makes you rich. Nothing else. 12:48:42 * Phantom_Hoover recalls that Tom Scott is a student of some description and quite a bit younger than Gregor, and he had £500 to blow on something even stupider. 12:49:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 12:49:16 elliott: I'm not rich, but fiscal responsibility keeps you well in the black when feasible. 12:49:25 I didn't say you were rich. 12:49:38 But purely being fiscally responsible is not nearly enough to be able to throw $500 for a novelty domain. 12:49:55 Yes. Yes it is. 12:50:04 No, it is not. 12:50:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 12:50:31 elliott, in fairness, you are not really the one who I would trust to have the clearest grip on finance. 12:50:50 Fine, then I just fall into money. It rains from the sky because the Money Gods love me. 12:51:41 s/Money Gods/parents/ and you have a plausible hypothesis... 12:51:44 HA 12:51:46 That's all I'll say on the matter. 12:51:48 My parents have no freaking money. 12:51:51 I loan money to my parents. 12:52:38 And if it was there money, I sure as hell wouldn't be using it for libc.so :P 12:52:42 ... *their 12:52:47 http://www.tomscott.com/stabbed/ 12:52:54 I got 4/5. 12:53:59 This game is impossible. 12:54:38 I'm assuming you've been stabbed 5 times. 12:54:41 Deewiant: And regarding the previous, also http://p.zem.fi/xcxp 12:55:16 Wow, I've gone at least two years without hearing yet another tedious Weebl & Bob reference. 12:55:22 Thank you, fizzie, you broke my streka. 12:55:25 also my streak. 13:02:09 libc\x2Eso: i cry foal! <-- sadly I was away when you said this, however had I been there, a pun about the current day would have been in order (hamming distance of 1 after all...) 13:02:57 libc\x2Eso, so did you get the domain? Or is it still up for auction? 13:03:26 ... wtf 13:03:45 Vorpal: How do you manage to consistently be weeks out of date :P 13:04:27 Vorpal: It's been up for auction for weeks, the auction started on Sunday. Now it's at $575 and a chat room full of people who've never actually had a job or lived away from home are telling me it's not worth it. 13:05:56 libc\x2Eso: because it isn't worth it 13:06:39 i never said it wasn't worth it, what i said was something else entirely 13:06:42 libc\x2Eso, yes, ais has never lived away from home or had a job. 13:06:52 -!- libc\x2Eso has changed nick to Gregor. 13:07:08 Phantom_Hoover: I have a job at the moment 13:07:11 Gregor, ah 13:07:46 ais523, yes, that was sarcasm to show how stupid Gregor's statement was. 13:08:53 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28-1%29^%281%2F3%29 13:08:57 LOL MATHEMATICA 13:09:57 * elliott tries to figure out where bitcoin fits in the gnome hierarchy 13:10:06 I guess wherever other financial programs go, but I don't know where that is 13:10:49 There are financial programs? 13:11:52 gnucash? 13:13:49 * elliott tries to generate coins 13:20:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:43:27 ais523: do you want a nice mold? 13:43:42 So, what awesomeness can I do with libdl.so? :( 13:43:45 elliott: ? 13:43:50 ais523: reddit 13:46:15 -!- sftp has joined. 14:00:58 -!- elliott_ has joined. 14:00:58 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:03:28 Gregor, so you lost the auction, or you're going to lose it? 14:04:11 The auction hasn't ended and I'm not up to my max, but I project an extremely low chance of winning. 14:04:24 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:14:23 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:16:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:18:09 -!- pumpkin has joined. 14:19:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:26:20 esr is definitely male, right? 14:26:31 Hmm, my Facebook account seems to be haemorrhaging its backlog of unaccepted friend requests. 14:26:37 seems I'm /that/ crazy about pronouns 14:27:03 s/crazy/obnoxious/ 14:28:15 s/obnoxious/pastiche/ 14:28:36 That's not an adjective, is it? 14:28:55 ais523: Yeesh, Phantom_Hoover is SO pastiche. 14:29:04 Probably because he's locked in his matrix of solidity. 14:29:20 Wiktionary agrees. 14:30:37 *sigh* 14:30:38 So pastiche. 14:31:00 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:36:05 -!- pumpkin has joined. 14:37:46 -!- augur has joined. 14:52:51 ais523: no, esr is female 14:53:12 elliott_: too late, I already referred to her with a male pronoun! 14:53:40 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page 14:53:41 Eric, short for Erica. 14:53:47 also, nobody can look at the recent changes any more 14:53:53 also, comments on a postcard^W/msg only 14:58:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:03:47 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 15:03:51 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 15:03:51 -!- elliott has joined. 15:04:01 -!- lament has joined. 15:15:37 Is there a way to sandbox Chrome tabs? 15:21:29 hm I wonder if the urban dictionary redesign to look similar to wikipedia is special for today... 15:21:44 I have no idea if it been this for long 15:24:13 the xkcd 3D trick with javascript looks quite cool 15:24:31 Looks like APNIC is nicely down today. Waiting for the graph to update... :-) 15:26:12 Anyway: 128k+64k to Japan, 4M(!!!) to China, 8k+4k to South Korea. 15:26:58 Compare last two answers. 15:28:17 Preliminary calculation gives down 0.27. 15:30:42 Heh. 25% of the address space gone in a single day. 15:32:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:32:32 elliott: I just converted a video to a sequence of PNG files representing individual frames, tar/gzipped it (deduplicating repeated frames), uuencoded, and posted it on sprunge 15:32:35 is there something wrong with me? 15:33:12 The preliminary figures would mean down 0.83(!) in a single week. 15:33:21 ouch 15:33:25 let's /hope/ it's April Fool's 15:33:59 Well, this extended delegated file is dated 2nd April... 15:34:07 hmm 15:34:11 I suppose it is April 2 somewhere 15:36:37 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:39:00 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5984 is quite awesome (rfc from today) 15:46:04 Lol, APNIC page has pie graph updated (0.78 left indeed) but bar graph hasn't. 15:52:10 Now the bar graph also updated. Indeed, down 0.27. 15:54:59 Logaritmic space available: /8.353 15:55:57 http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information ... That shows 1.78, but that doesn't take the final 1.00 into account. 15:56:35 Ilari, so what is the prediction date now? 15:56:38 a few days? weeks? 15:58:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:58:49 I predict Tuesday 12th April. 15:59:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:01:45 Heh, this model would estimate about 768 addresses left on Monday 11th. Of course, this process is discrete to the max. 16:05:50 [[There's also a couple of other reasons a perfect AI doesn't exist, not least the NP-completeness of the problem.]] 16:05:50 — TV Tropes 16:05:50 I'm not well-versed in complexity theory, but that sounds stupidly wrong. 16:06:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:34 can we verify that "perfect AI" is correct in polynomial time? 16:07:07 Well, the context is Minesweeper. 16:07:31 NP-completeness might imply that a perfect AI would take impractically long to run 16:07:45 That has no bearing on perfectness. 16:08:02 I imply that "exist" here doesn't refer to theoretical existence, but actual existence. 16:08:16 really? the whole point of the NP-completeness proof in Minesweeper is that it's NP-complete for finding if a solution exists 16:08:30 which implies that you can't find a solution, in general, in polynomial time, as that would imply that a solution did exist 16:08:57 Right, but you still /can/, it'll just take forever, making it not worth the effort. 16:09:20 Gregor: oh, I read the line as meaning that nobody had written a perfect AI 16:11:32 ais523, noöne *has*, but that's nothing to do with NP-completeness, and more to do with Minesweeper being random. 16:11:51 I disagree with the nothing there 16:12:08 it's unlikely that a NetHack program will become a restricted-tape Turing machine by chance 16:12:14 umm, Minesweeper game 16:12:20 but it's possible, and if it fails on that, it isn't perfect 16:12:38 ...perfect means polynomial now? 16:13:12 Phantom_Hoover: no, but exponential means unlikely to run in a reasonable time 16:13:15 so there'd be no way to test it 16:13:27 Still allows the existence of a perfect AI. 16:14:05 Phantom_Hoover: even if it allows the /existence/, if it makes it impractical, it explains why it hasn't been written 16:14:28 ais523, the article said it was *impossible* because of that. 16:15:11 Phantom_Hoover: it says "doesn't exist", that's different from "cannot exist" 16:15:29 Hmm, right enough. 16:15:30 X is impractical explaining that X doesn't exist is an entirely valid argument 16:29:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:29:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:29:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 16:29:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:32:29 -!- augur has joined. 16:50:30 -!- cheater00 has joined. 16:51:54 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:00:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:02:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:05:09 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:06:15 -!- pumpkin has joined. 17:07:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:10:56 http://www.johnmwillis.com/other/top-10-worst-captchas/ 17:11:00 Observe comment 12. 17:19:35 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:19:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 17:19:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:20:52 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:23:07 Why is the calculus question using partial derivatives? Does that make any difference in the answer/ 17:24:28 Um... did I just reveal that I understand math a little better than some commentor? 17:25:03 Well, I guess what e's saying makes sense if you haven't seen the notation before 17:25:11 Sgeo: with one variable, it doesn't matter whether you use partial or normal derivatives 17:25:22 and in some fields, like engineering, they typically use partials for whatever reason in that case 17:25:46 It's 'coz engineers r dum. 17:26:01 hmm, has anyone here tried to run GNU Hurd yet? 17:26:09 I'm not sure if I believe the release announcement 17:27:46 ais523, with 2 variables, does .. it just become incorrect to use normal derivative notation? 17:27:58 IIRC it means something else 17:28:01 but I can't remember the details 17:29:06 Sgeo, WP has the answers as usual, although I've forgotten them since I looked them up. 17:29:15 PDEs are boring anyway. 17:29:41 Phantom_Hoover, the multivariable calculus I'm doing with the OCW thing will be more than Partial Derivatives, right? 17:29:51 No idea. 17:29:51 i certainly never took higher level diffeq and i'm fine! 17:30:08 I've never bothered to look into multivariable calculus. 17:41:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:43:22 It is March 32 today, isn't it? 17:43:27 indeed 17:43:42 or sep 6422, if you prefer to count that way 17:46:16 They say it is April 1 today, but actually it is March 32. April 1 has been cancelled. 17:50:24 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:50:26 fortunately, we have the thinkgeek3d sweepstakes (completely real!) to make up for it 17:51:00 MOTD now has ASCII art. It also has the message "VmlldyBwYWdlIHNvdXJjZSwgeW91bmcgZ3Jhc3Nob3BwZXIu" 17:51:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:51:20 decode it 17:51:22 get the prize 17:51:23 gogogo 17:52:17 I did decode it 17:53:12 oh okay 17:53:15 what was the prize 17:54:15 I don't know what to do with it, once it is decoded 17:55:14 zzo38: join #defocus and say !join, and there's a CAPTCHAbot that gives some sort of quiz 17:55:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:55:58 ais523, I thought it was just a mafia game 17:56:16 ah, perhaps 17:58:27 ? 18:00:40 JIIbH01UGxIvZ1cAGGOjp1xjLmExI0y6H1uJJx0lBGWnFTf1IyMjI2SVIzuJZQIiJGVkHzEJo3yvERR9 18:08:58 The MOTD message is referring to the blog page's source code. 18:09:20 The one at http://blog.freenode.net/2011/04/important-service-announcement-regarding-defocus/ 18:09:47 And I pasted the decoded versions of two of the three things that are in that page's source. 18:10:53 http://p.zem.fi/xcxp and http://p.zem.fi/d98k -- feel free to go on and solve the Cat Enigma. 18:11:26 I would sort-of guess that they'd have gotten the ten solutions already. (Though come to think of it I haven't seen any more global notices.) 18:13:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:14:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:14:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:14:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:16:29 APNIC burned through 2.678 during last 30 days??? 18:24:12 To paraphrase popular phrase: Allocate baby allocate. :-) 18:30:35 I want to add feature to TeXnicard so that it can work without external programs (but keeping the way using external program, too), by adding some commands for image manipulation and for typesetting using some algorithms of TeX. However I do not want to include any external libraries other than the one I can include with source-codes and compiling together with TeXnicard, and without floating point. 18:31:24 Is there a way to tell git that a file has been renamed? 18:32:55 zzo38: git mv a 18:32:56 zzo38: git mv a b 18:34:15 hmm, apparently I need a newer yasm 18:34:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:41:06 ais523: What does it mean if a GPU computation program has an option to "use vectors"? 18:43:37 elliott: my guess is it means vectorised operations, like the SIMD instructions in recent x86-compatible processors 18:43:46 but that would be CPU not GPU 18:43:50 it's OpenCL 18:43:55 ah 18:44:02 I think OpenCL can do both, but this is explicitly a GPU program 18:44:03 in that case it's a weird name for something else I've never heard of 18:44:25 apparently it's ideal on some AMD cards at least 18:44:29 no word about nvidia 18:44:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:45:01 I suppose it could be a reference to memory coalescing 18:45:20 #ifdef VECTORS 18:45:20 typedef uint2 u; 18:45:20 #else 18:45:20 typedef uint u; 18:45:20 #endif 18:45:25 (the way that you can request a block of memory and it's as fast as requesting a single byte, because it's typelineable 18:45:29 #ifdef VECTORS 18:45:30 nonce = base + get_global_id(0) + (uint2)(0, 0x80000000U); 18:45:30 #else 18:45:30 nonce = base + get_global_id(0); 18:45:30 #endif 18:45:34 aha, it is 18:45:45 it's forcing the two units next to each other in memory 18:45:53 so is that almost universally a good thing, or does it depend on the card? 18:45:56 so that they can be coalesced 18:46:26 if you're going to be using two ints anyway, together, it makes sense to vectorise them 18:46:30 if they're used separately a lot, it doesn't 18:46:55 and all cards react much the same way on that 18:47:16 the code is too insane for me to naalyze like that 18:47:21 B = B + (rotr(G, 6) ^ rotr(G, 11) ^ rotr(G, 25)) + (A ^ (G & (H ^ A))) + K[54] + W6; F = F + B; B = B + (rotr(C, 2) ^ rotr(C, 13) ^ rotr(C, 22)) + ((C & D) | (E & (C | D))); 18:47:21 W7 = W7 + (rotr(W8, 7) ^ rotr(W8, 18) ^ (W8 >> 3U)) + W0 + (rotr(W5, 17) ^ rotr(W5, 19) ^ (W5 >> 10U)); 18:47:22 A = A + (rotr(F, 6) ^ rotr(F, 11) ^ rotr(F, 25)) + (H ^ (F & (G ^ H))) + K[55] + W7; E = E + A; A = A + (rotr(B, 2) ^ rotr(B, 13) ^ rotr(B, 22)) + ((B & C) | (D & (B | C))); 18:47:22 W8 = W8 + (rotr(W9, 7) ^ rotr(W9, 18) ^ (W9 >> 3U)) + W1 + (rotr(W6, 17) ^ rotr(W6, 19) ^ (W6 >> 10U)); 18:47:24 H = H + (rotr(E, 6) ^ rotr(E, 11) ^ rotr(E, 25)) + (G ^ (E & (F ^ G))) + K[56] + W8; D = D + H; H = H + (rotr(A, 2) ^ rotr(A, 13) ^ rotr(A, 22)) + ((A & B) | (C & (A | B))); 18:47:27 *analyze 18:47:29 *analyse :-P 18:47:58 wow @ the resulting assembly file 18:50:59 ais523: You sound terrified :-P 18:51:12 I didn't realise I sounded anything 18:51:18 also, that sort of thing looks almost normal 18:51:22 I take it those are thread-local variables? 18:51:37 function local, the function is __kernel 18:51:44 __kernel void search( const uint state0, const uint state1, const uint state2, const uint state3, 18:51:44 const uint state4, const uint state5, const uint state6, const uint state7, 18:51:44 const uint B1, const uint C1, const uint D1, 18:51:44 const uint F1, const uint G1, const uint H1, 18:51:44 const uint targetG, const uint targetH, 18:51:45 yep, thread-local 18:51:45 const uint base, 18:51:47 const uint fW0, const uint fW1, const uint fW2, const uint fW3, const uint fW15, const uint fW01r, const uint fcty_e, const uint fcty_e2, 18:51:50 __global uint * output) 18:51:52 an impressive signature 18:52:01 they'd have some sort of indicator if they weren't 18:52:26 there's about a hundred lines like the above in a row, though :) 18:52:29 i feel like macros could help. 18:52:58 unrolled loop 18:53:18 ais523: again, i feel like macros could help :-P 18:53:29 I think CUDA actually has C++-style templates, despite being mostly based on C, precisely to shorten that sort of thing 18:53:41 all this advanced technology and it's being defeated by an http timeout... 18:55:46 how odd 18:56:31 def if_else(condition, trueVal, falseVal): 18:56:31 if condition: 18:56:31 return trueVal 18:56:31 else: 18:56:31 return falseVal 18:56:42 I feel good about this code already. 18:57:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:03:56 ais523: wow, GPUs are pretty good 19:04:09 approximately 10x as good as CPUs, even :-P 19:04:11 they're much better than CPUs, just hard to write for 19:04:25 yeah. and they slow down your desktop when you use them! sheesh 19:04:30 for things that are maximally optimal for GPUs compared to CPUs, it's more like 100x 19:04:45 this is what essentially amounts to hash-cracking on the small, I think 19:04:47 like Hashcash 19:05:01 actually it's not quite 10x as good as my cpu, more like 5x, because i have two cores 19:05:27 grr, maybe compiz will get less lag than metacity 19:08:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:08:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 19:08:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:08:17 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:09:08 -!- elliott has joined. 19:09:14 Compiz doesn't like being turned on when the GPU is being thrashed 19:09:31 it's very easy to crash a GPU by mistake 19:09:41 -!- augur has joined. 19:09:42 as they don't have all the OSy stuff that CPUs have nowadays 19:09:51 that will ruin their throughput? :-D 19:09:53 and a crashed GPU mostly forces you to reboot the computer if you want the screen to work 19:10:02 also, it worked, just, i could only see my mouse 19:10:03 elliott: nah, I just don't think people have got round to doing it yet 19:10:06 (it changed cursor when moving over texty parts) 19:10:09 but just that and the background, no windows 19:10:12 ah, then it was just being overloaded 19:10:52 grr, my gpu is a bit of a weakling 19:11:07 despite being basically the best *integrated* laptop gpu out there :) 19:11:16 i have a choice of this performing well, or a smooth desktop 19:12:43 hmm, seems to be getting marginally better 19:12:53 except that one of my query windows just went blank 19:13:04 ais523: do gpus have any sort of "hey, i have no memory left" protection? :D 19:13:10 elliott: no, they just crash 19:13:20 oh, wait, it didn't actually clear 19:13:24 if you're lucky, the supervisor process on the CPU will notice and be able to put things back in order 19:13:28 I must have hit Ctrl+L by mistake 19:14:24 at least, the supervisor process normally notices if it's running at the time, although it may not be able to put things back to normal depending on how badly crashed the GPU is 19:17:00 * elliott tries 1/90 single kernel execution seconds 19:17:15 okay my desktop is basically usable now 19:17:19 yet more reason to use ratpoison! 19:17:36 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:17:38 $825 :'( 19:18:19 it's worth it, put all your money into it 19:18:23 it isn't, don't 19:18:25 buy it for ten thousand dollars 19:18:30 That's still below my max, but not by much. 19:18:31 give up hookers for a year if you must 19:18:36 I have all but to concede defeat :( 19:18:59 "that's still below my max" ;; surely at this point you can admit that it's an insane amount of money to be spending 19:19:15 that's /80 years/ of normal average domain 19:19:18 *a normal domain 19:19:18 It's mostly not my money, people who aren't douchebags have been donating :P 19:19:51 wtf, it's estimating that switching to the gpu was a lose 19:20:07 despite it being 5x as fast 19:20:51 I should turn on that vectors thing... and change the worksize :) 19:21:37 ais523: Can I have a GPU farm? 19:21:39 THX 19:21:47 hmm, "that vectors thing" is a massive pessimisation 19:21:53 admittedly, I do have access to a GPU farm, but I'd be in trouble if I used it for /that/ 19:22:02 elliott: it looks like it's changing the algo 19:22:11 to one that's slower but sped up more by coalescing 19:22:32 If it was $825 of my own money, then yes, that would be a lot. 19:22:39 But I have friends that are actually friends. 19:22:42 Unlike you bastards :P 19:23:04 ais523: /that/?! YOU MEAN HELPING YOUR FRIEND? ;______________________________________________________________________________________________________; 19:23:11 (I am morbidly obese.) 19:23:33 Gregor: so it's $825 of your friends' money? 19:23:35 that's worse 19:23:55 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wawawareya. 19:24:13 ais523: WTF is wrong with you, seriously. You have so little money sense it's almost offensive. 19:24:18 Gregor has 15 friends who would give him $20 for a novelty email address? 19:24:32 15 * 20 is just $300 19:24:35 money sense, n. spending $825 of your friends' money on a novelty domain name 19:24:56 elliott: They gave small donations and I'm giving them a vanity email address in return, it's friendly and they're trying to help me out. 19:26:53 ALSO you don't read, it's not $825 of my friend's money, I said that's /mostly/ my friend's money. That only means it's at least $413 of theirs. 19:27:44 (It happens to be more, but you people are so frustratingly unhelpful and assholish that I'm not going to give a value) 19:28:19 Gregor: is it us who's being assholish, for trying to give you good advice rather than waste money chasing domain names? 19:28:37 Things #esoteric has said to Gregor: 19:28:40 (1) It's too much money. 19:28:44 (2) It's a waste of money. 19:28:55 (3) No, fiscal responsibility alone does not give you sufficient money to throw away like that. 19:29:03 ASSHOLES 19:29:52 Yes, that is unfriendly behavior towards someone who DOES have the money, and DOES NOT have the money through magic or pulling it out of his god damn ass, to want to buy something to make him happy. 19:30:39 And "never spend substantial amounts of money on anything that does not have intrinsic value" is a very poor piece of advice if you'd like to actually enjoy life at all. 19:31:06 oh, I tend not to spend substantial amounts of money even on things that do have intrinsic value 19:31:17 You've also been bugging us for donations, not just saying you're buying it 19:32:45 * Gregor spends a moment breathing :P 19:33:16 It's up to $825 now? 19:33:45 Yes, and Gregor is now in a bitter argument with elliott and ais523. 19:34:09 I think donating all the money I made in SL may not be a good idea 19:34:23 you made money in SL? 19:34:28 (Sealand) 19:34:47 (Second Life) 19:34:55 * Gregor chooses to believe Sealand. 19:34:56 ais523, not much, especially considering the amount of time involved) 19:34:57 ais523, he has, like, £160. 19:35:07 01/04/2011 20:34:48, fc342b63, accepted 19:35:08 I'M RICH 19:35:18 elliott, BitCoins? 19:35:29 omg and another... actually I think it just found work this second :P 19:35:38 Sgeo: Yes X-D 19:35:46 My poor GPU is squealing. 19:35:54 Makes me want to go down to the coal mines. 19:35:59 Actually I could just play Minecraft. 19:36:06 Actually gold mines but I don't think we have gold mines in England. 19:36:32 elliott: how much is that one coin worth? 19:36:32 CPU score: 0.01534 19:36:35 GPU score: 2157.0000 19:36:35 Any transaction fees? (Yeah, I know that currently transaction fees are minimal compared to .. what's it called? The 50) 19:36:37 ais523: I don't have a coin yet X-D 19:36:44 ais523: This is pooled mining. 19:36:50 ais523: (In non-pooled mining, you get 50 coins at a time. Very slowly.) 19:37:06 ah, you're constructing a batch of coins together and splitting them? 19:37:17 elliott, oh, thought you were doing it yourself 19:37:18 ais523: No, a bunch of people contribute to the mining of one block 19:37:21 by a distributed cluster 19:37:29 the rewards are distributed according to how much work they did, etc. 19:37:33 ah, I see 19:37:46 because the combined result is essentially a supercomputer, it gets far more blocks than any one person (who would be unlikely to ever get one with only one computer) 19:37:56 How often does that cluster find coins? 19:38:18 ais523: re: worth; as far as exchange goes, 1 USD = 1.26 BTC; 1 EUR = 1.64 BTC; 1 BTC = L$220 (going to L$; too lazy to work out the reverse) 19:38:35 (YES, SECOND LIFE'S CURRENCY IS TOTALLY ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DOLLARS X-D) 19:38:48 Also 1 gram of gold is 48.54 BTC X-D 19:39:02 do you have to mine a block at a time the way it works? or can you find just the one coin then stop? 19:39:33 ais523: you have to mine a block at a time, but I believe it's an incremental process, and possibly even distributed 19:39:37 but all the spoils go to one winner 19:39:49 (the spoils decrease and the difficulty increases as time goes on, before all bitcoins have been distributed into the market) 19:40:36 ais523: but with pool mining, the problems your node has to solve are much smaller 19:40:42 so it's a lot faster 19:40:49 it still seems to be a waste of time to use a CPU, though 19:40:53 hm, so it isn't just hashcash-style 19:41:00 ais523: oh, I don't know the actual protocol yet 19:41:07 ais523: but it's something like finding a hash with no zeroes, that's involved 19:41:17 (in some base, presumably) 19:41:39 ais523: btw, the analogue to the sg finding-a-tip problem is that you have to go from the first block ever created to the last 19:41:44 and I think there's like one block per transaction 19:41:54 what game is this for? i can't read up 19:42:00 quintopia: it's not a game 19:42:06 what is it? 19:42:08 they have no clever solution to it though (I'm not even sure a clever solution is desirable), they just walk from the first block to the latest 19:42:09 quintopia: bitcoin 19:42:20 wtf is it 19:42:34 quintopia: cryptographic, decentralised currency 19:42:54 in actual use -- you can donate to the EFF with it, buy gold with it, convert it to USD/EUR, etc. 19:43:29 oic, so why does it involve mining? 19:43:38 *facepalm* 19:43:38 quintopia, that's how it's produced 19:43:42 quintopia: mining = solving a bunch of cryptographic problems :P 19:43:45 There's no central bank 19:43:47 leading you to a valid bitcoin 19:43:52 19:37:56: How often does that cluster find coins? 19:43:52 a 19:43:54 *all the time, I think 19:44:00 http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/ 19:44:18 quintopia is unable to comprehend any token of exchange that doesn't involve siderophilic elements. 19:44:32 Sgeo: the system takes 2% to give to the owner for upkeep 19:44:38 yeah, i'm reading up on it 19:44:40 i.e. 1 BTC 19:45:06 there are other pools, but this one seems decent 19:45:07 apparently they make you solve those problems to slow the rate at which the currency enters circulation 19:45:08 The reason people get paid to mine is because they're supporting the network. Each mined block contains previous transactions 19:45:19 apparently there are others that give a quicker payout in the short-run, but meh 19:45:32 quintopia: it's not that they make you, it's that it's literally built in to the protocol 19:45:42 quintopia: and there has to be _some_ problem involved, or the first person could just award themselves every bitcoin :-D 19:45:44 yes sure 19:46:43 so basically you're making real money by doing nothing, the same way you would by investing real money in a hedge fund or commodities 19:46:58 quintopia, not doing nothing. Providing resources to the network 19:47:04 quintopia: It's not doing nothing, it's doing nothing of intrinsic value 19:47:09 Although the actual computation is wasted 19:47:10 quintopia: but does that really matter? you can get it in other ways far quicker 19:47:22 by trading existing currency, offering services (apparently some people will actually pay you in bitcoins already), ... 19:47:37 and it's only relevant for the first few years, after which there won't be any to distribute anyway 19:47:52 elliott, there will still be transaction fees 19:47:55 Sgeo: providing resources to the network requires no effort, therefore it is doing nothing 19:48:00 quintopia: anyway, by the same token most office jobs are doing ntohing :-P 19:48:01 *nothing 19:48:06 do you work as a farmer? 19:48:14 quintopia: It's not doing nothing, it's doing nothing of intrinsic value 19:48:20 Define "intrinsic value". 19:48:26 elliott: I think the way it's working is that everyone checks the block, looking for perfect or imperfect bitcoins (ones with a few or several bits wrong) 19:48:31 no, i do nothing, and i don't get paid for it 19:48:31 Phantom_Hoover: It's difficult :P But I don't think many people are interested in various cryptographic results. 19:48:48 when someone finds a perfect one, it's split between everyone in the ratio of the imperfect ones they found, which are valueless 19:48:56 elliott, but they can easily benefit from them. 19:49:03 ais523: ah; that's not how the protocol itself works, though 19:49:09 I know for a fact that only one person wins a block. 19:49:19 elliott: indeed 19:49:20 well, one token thnig 19:49:21 *thin 19:49:23 *thing 19:49:25 ah, "address" 19:50:57 also, it's utterly hilarious that the bitcoin homepage has a flattr link 19:51:10 elliott, which block did your group find? 19:51:18 ais523: they're replacing that, I think, with a development-oriented page 19:51:21 ais523: http://www.weusecoins.com/ is the new "marketing" site 19:51:27 with obligatory cute videos 19:51:48 it's worrying that more or less the currency's entire value depends on how good it is at marketing 19:52:00 ais523: only in the short-term 19:52:06 ais523: anyway, that's true with _all_ currencies! 19:52:06 elliott? 19:52:20 all the ones that don't have an actual backing 19:52:27 ais523, i.e. all of them? 19:52:28 ais523: that makes no sense! 19:52:29 but very few (no?) currencies are backed by something that's really valuable 19:52:32 ais523: say pounds were backed by gold 19:52:37 Oh, dur, it's on the pool's site 19:52:37 what use is gold? not much 19:52:38 gold is also a bubble 19:52:43 people value it higher than its uses (which do exist) 19:52:46 ais523: nothing has intrinsic value 19:52:49 http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000261ec3e461516103db3e359519e3cc6149ff5d3af63855465c66 19:52:50 ais523: things only have value because we find them useful 19:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:52:54 guess what? fiat currencies have value 19:52:56 because they're useful 19:53:02 elliott, if nothing has intrinsic value then what is the point of the concept? 19:53:08 Phantom_Hoover: there is no point of the concept :) 19:53:16 (I was using it with a meaning that I don't even know earlier) 19:53:24 the only useful concept is human value 19:53:28 and fiat currencies definitely have that 19:53:31 well, you'd consider things like food to be intrinsically valuable 19:53:36 no 19:53:41 on the basis that people require it to live 19:53:42 they're useful because we find eating them to be a rather good thing 19:53:47 because we find staying alive to be a good thing 19:53:50 still nothing objective there 19:54:10 currency is just abstraction of work; if you can work for a currency, and use the currency to buy the product of work, then that currency is valuable 19:54:15 fiat currencies no less 19:54:31 elliott: well, would you consider the barter system to make sense? 19:54:38 ais523: anyway, bitcoin is better than a "normal" fiat currency system 19:54:42 because nobody can control its value 19:54:45 (directly) 19:55:00 ais523: the barter system is better than no kind of currency system at all, but definitely suboptimal 19:55:06 actually, I suspect its value would be much more liable to being manipulated than otherwise 19:55:07 err 19:55:09 define barter system 19:55:14 and what, bitcoins? howso? 19:55:20 you could drive the value very high the same way you can drive the value of shares high, by buying a lot of bitcoins quickly 19:55:27 for more than everyone else thinks they're worth 19:55:34 if people then trust those trades, you could sell them on at a profit 19:55:39 and cause a collapse later 19:55:44 very risky, but it's been successfully done with other things 19:56:01 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees 19:56:07 Sgeo: I don't know that they have yet 19:56:27 I think this one is still in progress 19:56:33 also, the statement that they'll keep getting more valuable with time is very worrying; the fact that it's going up rather than down as more are created means that public perception of the value is changing rapidly 19:57:05 ais523: they get valuable after the distribution stops 19:57:08 well, generation 19:57:31 Isn't that supposed to be many many years from now? 19:58:32 ais523: and they get harder to get as distribution goes on 19:58:37 because the rewards are less and the problems more difficult 19:58:42 but that's all 19:58:48 Sgeo: not many, AFAIK 19:58:57 at least, I don't think 19:59:10 heh, singularity institute also accept bitcoin donations :) 19:59:47 also, transaction fees are optional 20:00:26 Not that that does much good unless someone runs a miner that doesn't require fees 20:00:57 Sgeo: um, as in, you can send bitcoins without transactions 20:01:03 ("Because nodes have no obligation to include transactions in the blocks they generate, Bitcoin senders may voluntarily pay a transaction fee. Doing so will speed up the transaction and provide incentive for users to run nodes, especially as the difficulty of generating bitcoins increases or the reward per block amount decreases over time. Nodes collect the transaction fees associated with all transactions included in their candidate block.") 20:02:08 But nodes are free to reject transactions without a fee if they wish 20:02:17 it's a free market like thingy 20:05:08 I think the way bitcoin works is that everyone has a history of everything that's happened, and it's cryptographically hard to update 20:05:15 yes 20:05:23 and if you manage to update it, you get some free bitcoins as a reward for doing the work in question 20:05:44 "Well, you fooled *us*! Have some bitcoins!" 20:05:54 hmm, it's basically an attempt to construct a monad in cryptographic security 20:06:04 YOU THINK EVERYTHING'S A MONAD 20:06:10 no, just things that are 20:06:22 transaction histories /aren't/, bitcoin's an attempt to make them act like one 20:06:37 it's more turning transactions into a linked list 20:06:45 the point is to prevent the list forking 20:06:58 basically, people put computational power into forcing their own version of events 20:07:00 yes, it's a linked list addressed by cryptographic hashes 20:07:18 ais523: you could only fork if you regenerated every event after too, I think 20:07:18 but not a doubly linked list, as that wouldn't make sense 20:07:32 ais523: blocks have the hash of the last block in them 20:07:33 elliott: no, you can just fork at any point by generating a block 20:07:37 no 20:07:53 /but/, if your block chain is easier to generate than the one that most people think is the chain, nobody will pay attention to it 20:08:03 whichever chain is the most difficult to generate is the official version of events 20:08:37 and everyone extends that one as it's the only one other people accept, which means it keeps getting longer and longer, and harder and harder to catch 20:08:54 ais523: Every block contains a hash of the previous block. This has the effect of creating a chain of blocks from the genesis block to the current block. Each block is guaranteed to come after the previous block chronologically because the previous block's hash would otherwise not be known. Each block is also nearly impossible to modify once it has been in the chain for a while because every block after it would also have to be regenerated. These 20:08:54 properties are what make double-spending of bitcoins very difficult. The block chain is the main innovation of Bitcoin. 20:08:56 "Bitcoin relies on the fact that no single entity can control most of the CPU power on the network for any significant length of time, since, if they could, they would be able to extend any branch of the tree they chose, and faster than any other branch can be extended, making it the longest branch, and then permanently controlling which transactions appear in it." 20:09:14 elliott: well, you can pick any block you like as the "previous block" when generating them 20:11:07 ais523: Anyway, it seems cryptographically sound. 20:11:21 yes, I think it makes sense cryptographically 20:11:29 assuming no hash collisions, which we can hope is the case 20:11:46 it's SHA-256, so that's a pretty good assumption 20:12:02 (IIRC) 20:13:21 does this bitcoin discussion have to do with the freenode prize? 20:13:31 nothing at all 20:13:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:14:24 I currently have 0.05 BTC due to free money being given out :-P 20:14:24 kk 20:15:00 where can i find the latest BTC exchange rates? 20:15:12 http://bitcoinwatch.com/ 20:15:24 there is also http://bitcoincharts.com/ 20:15:29 which has fancy market stats 20:15:33 so you can pretend to be a REAL trader 20:16:13 uh oh, buying lots of ridiculously overpowerful hardware and then sitting at a computer screen into the night just became profitable 20:16:32 I suspect the world population growth rate to plummet 20:16:37 s/suspect/something/ 20:17:34 is it though? 20:17:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:17:49 quintopia: Is it what? Profitable? 20:18:06 Yes; people who are doing it are pretty serious :-P 20:18:22 elliott: why would you have to attend it? 20:18:23 i expect that you wouldn't be able to mine enough BTC in the short time that new blocks have so much value to recoup the cost of the hardware and electricity 20:18:26 but maybe i'm wrong 20:18:58 well, after a while, new blocks won't generate coins 20:19:04 ais523: traders spend all day looking at screens with white on black and red and blue :-P 20:19:07 instead, people will be paid to generate them by people doing transactions 20:19:08 And you can do that with bitcoins! 20:19:19 quintopia: you can 20:19:28 i.e. if you do a transaction, you need to bribe the people making blocks to include it 20:19:29 quintopia: if you buy a handful of high-end GPUs 20:19:39 otherwise the person at the other end has no way to know if it's confirmed or not 20:19:47 and thus, whether you're double-spending or not 20:20:19 ok, now person #2 has assumed I'm talking about a game when I mentioned bitcoins 20:20:26 THE NAME PERHAPS REQUIRES IMPROVEMENT 20:20:29 yes 20:20:31 well, most purely digital currenices are game-related 20:20:32 also 20:20:34 Like TotallySeriousBitCurrencyYo. 20:20:35 "mining" 20:20:37 ais523: I didn't mention that :P 20:20:39 quintopia: No, that's awesome. 20:20:53 but we have a wealth of mining /games/ 20:21:10 quintopia: In fact I want my screensaver to be a picture of a cute little android mining at a big ol' block of bitcoins. 20:21:18 With little coins falling out of it. 20:21:22 it's not really a good metaphor 20:21:24 Based on the actual data. 20:21:26 minting would be closer 20:21:27 it'd be much better if you could get a bunch of clients cooperating to mine games, rather than coins 20:21:27 IT WOULD BE AWESOME 20:21:34 it'd probably be cheaper than making games by hand 20:21:35 ais523: wat 20:21:37 X-D 20:21:49 see, it'd produce something actually useful then, people like playing games 20:21:58 i support this idea 20:22:16 ais523: wouldn't that involve a very expensive algorithm that generates a new game? 20:22:19 I approve 20:22:23 it would take a very long time to mine a single game though 20:22:31 imagine the games being written in SHAfuck 20:22:37 elliott: of course, you think generating a good game is easy? 20:22:54 you can determine how good the game is by how many person-hours are spent playing it 20:23:02 ais523: somehow I'm relieved that nobody from #esoteric invented bitcoins now 20:23:05 well 20:23:06 TO OUR KNOWLEDGE 20:23:09 ais523, wouldn't it be better to have a rating system? 20:23:10 then do the rest of the setup the same way as bitcoin 20:23:17 you can determine how good the game is by how many person-hours are spent playing it 20:23:20 but then QWOP would rank as a good game! 20:23:21 Phantom_Hoover: you'd want somethign that couldn't be easily gamed 20:23:26 elliott: QWOP? 20:23:30 ais523: YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW 20:23:34 and it requires flash so you can't know 20:23:44 One of those highly-addictive but not particularly enjoyable games. 20:23:44 also, Dot Action 2 would count as a good game, though that's only debatable, not objectively wrong 20:23:49 Phantom_Hoover: IT'S NOT ENJOYABLE AT ALL 20:23:52 IT'S LIVING HELL 20:23:57 so why do people play it? 20:24:05 so, since i can't seem to find it in these lay intros, exactly what is the problem being solved in the creation of a new block, and how is its difficulty ramped up? 20:24:11 ais523: IT CONSUMES YOUR SOUL 20:24:17 quintopia: look at the non-lay intros :P 20:24:24 quintopia: the problem's to find a hash of the previous transaction history that, treated as an integer, is really low 20:24:29 elliott: you mean the original paper? 20:24:29 quintopia: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page 20:25:39 ais523: and how is the difficulty parameterized? 20:25:52 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths wow, this is big 20:26:14 quintopia: I'm not sure about the translation to a number, but it's basically finding a hash that's, say, only 0.0001% of the maximum value it could have, rather than more like 50% like you'd expect 20:26:23 Bitcoins are worthless because they aren't backed by anything 20:26:23 Gold isn't backed by anything either. See myth https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_is_backed_by_CPU_cycles 20:26:33 lol, i should have just told ais523 to read this :P 20:26:53 I agree that bitcoin isn't backed by anything 20:27:15 it could only be backed by CPU cycles if they were intrinsically capable of being exchanged for CPU cycles, and they aren't 20:27:36 I suppose the reason I think bitcoin's a bubble is because I think gold's a bubble too 20:27:46 and, well, most or all Real Life currency 20:27:57 but it's hard to find a way to live without currency altogether, so I may as well use what most people use 20:28:03 ais523: all currency is a bubble by your definition 20:28:08 yes 20:28:11 inherently 20:28:11 can I not believe that? 20:28:18 maybe that's true, but it's more making the concept of "bubble" useless, rather than saying something deep about currency 20:28:33 well, yes 20:28:45 ais523: and by "finding a hash" that means "choosing a way of hashing" such that the choices are numerous and the particular choice of hashes is specifiable as a small number? 20:28:47 if something is useful indefinitely, I find calling it a bubble silly; and there's no reason bitcoin wouldn't be usable indefinitely, if people keep using it, which there seems to be no reason for them to stop doing 20:29:22 there's doesn't seem to be much reason for them to continue doing either 20:29:51 quintopia: you can append an arbitrary nonce to the data then hash it via a specific hash algo, the difficulty's in finding a nonce for which doing that works 20:29:58 ais523: as much reason as any currency 20:30:14 the reason is because it would take a lot of people deciding not to in order to make it no longer worthwhile for anyone to 20:30:25 i.e., it's more useful than having to milk a goat by hand to give milk to the person who you want to buy a coat off 20:30:29 quintopia: except it can happen gradually 20:30:29 so continuing to do so is a dynamic equilibrium of the system 20:30:42 if a few people decide they don't want to continue to use bitcoin any more, it makes its value go down 20:30:51 ais523: not really 20:30:57 that'll make more people decide they don't want to use it, and drive its value down further 20:30:58 ais523: not as long as the exchanges are still used 20:30:58 etc 20:31:01 it's an unstable equilibrium 20:31:03 well, anyway 20:31:04 ais523: sure 20:31:06 ais523: but if everyone is using it, what reason do those people have to choose not to use it? 20:31:08 real currency has the same issue 20:31:08 ais523: but you have to show why that would happen 20:31:16 ALL CURRENCY INHERENTLY HAS THAT ISSUE 20:31:18 the only reason it's tolerated is that people have to use /something/ 20:31:19 elliott: I KNOW 20:31:23 apart from currencies whose value is somehow determined by one person 20:31:29 which can only be done by that one person selling just about every good 20:31:33 basically, how does a rational player determine that it is rational to stop using bitcoin? 20:31:36 or at least forcing people to sell it at a certain price 20:31:41 and, um, people don't like that 20:31:49 your argument isn't working, because you're trying to convince me that bitcoin is no worse than any real currency, and I'm saying I don't care because real currencies are bad enough 20:31:51 ais523: what I object to is your use of the word "bitcoin" 20:31:55 you should say "currency" 20:31:59 well, OK 20:32:29 ais523, I'm going to have to bring out the "if you're so clever then what would you use instead" at this juncture. 20:32:36 ais523: how does a rational player determine that it is rational to stop using a particular widespread currency? 20:32:47 quintopia: people aren't rational 20:32:51 come on, you made that far too easy 20:32:52 ais523: FWIW, I don't like currency in the general case anyway 20:33:03 ais523: my preferred solution is to eliminate scarcity 20:33:06 then it's just superfluous 20:33:08 but until then... 20:33:09 elliott: i'm asking a game theory question here, your objection is overruled 20:33:16 quintopia: it's worth not using a currency, if what it takes you to obtain that currency is an unfairly large amount of however-you-value-things-in-general compared to what you can buy using it 20:33:24 quintopia, hello, this is reality speaking. Humans are not rational. Bye. 20:33:27 quintopia: I don't think game theory applies to people deciding to stop using a currency like bitcoin 20:33:27 I may as well give you a stock game theory answer in that case 20:33:31 there are far too many irrational reasons to do it 20:34:00 elliott: i agree that it does not apply in the real world. could you stop bringing up irrelevancies wrt my game theory question? 20:34:39 quintopia: no, I like pinging you, it's fun 20:34:42 ping ping ping 20:34:46 elliott: the main rational reason to buy a currency that's been freshly created and that doesn't have much momentum yet, is because you think that other people will try to do the same thing as you but later 20:34:55 I remember pulling that sort of trick in nomic occasionally 20:35:06 actually, PBA vs. RBoA is probably worth analysing by all economists 20:35:07 ais523: I'm a bit of a slowpoke, I probably should have jumped in earlier 20:35:13 ais523: gah, I was just thinking about the PBA 20:35:16 ais523: trying to mentally revise it 20:35:21 elliott: if you're a slowpoke, you'll go and dominate the leaderboard 20:35:24 then I wondered about having a bank backed by bitcoins, which sounded like fun 20:35:29 until you get trapped by consistency 20:35:33 OTOH, people would be unlikely to use it 20:35:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:35:40 but, at least, more likely than "real" currency 20:35:44 despite that not being rational 20:35:51 ais523: are you saying that for a widespread currency, currency acquisition becomes more expensive than the value of the currency? that seems to contradict the definition of "value"? 20:36:01 ais523: anyway, the PBA is still inherently better than the RBoA, IMO 20:36:09 ais523: it just needs tweaking 20:36:33 elliott: you're speaking as if it still exists 20:36:39 ais523: i'm speaking about it in the abstract 20:36:42 quintopia: indeed, that's why currencies tend not to collapse 20:36:47 ais523: and the PBA did very well for a long time, it was killed by (1) my coding negligence, (2) BobTHJ's everything negligence and (3) the resulting bank run of one by Wooble 20:36:50 the value is based on a circular argument, but it's a persistent one 20:36:50 err 20:36:54 *(3) the collapse of the game, and the 20:36:55 ais523: what I object to is your use of the word "bitcoin" 20:36:55 Erm, wait, what. 20:37:02 Also I think my connection is gone again. 20:37:05 it hasn't 20:37:07 elliott: the collapse of the economy in general helped too, I think 20:37:18 ais523: that's what i said, unless you mean the real world economy 20:37:21 Phantom_Hoover: Phantom_Hoover: because he was objecting to bitcoins in various ways, but they actually applied to every currency 20:37:27 s/^Phantom_Hoover: // 20:37:36 elliott: I meant the Agoran economy 20:37:41 the game didn't collapse, just the AAA 20:37:42 which was enough 20:37:47 ais523: I think the start of the PBA was really interesting, because it was amazing how out of whack the RBoA rates are 20:37:50 indeed 20:38:14 and, incidentally, both banks were backed by the AAA, which was backed by the scoring system 20:38:22 so the banks worked fine just as long as win by points did 20:38:27 ais523: it was also backed by notes 20:38:31 only the AAA dwarfed notes 20:38:52 ais523: IMO, a bank should have some built-in-to-the-contract way of selling off work 20:38:59 ais523: so that e.g. it would still work even if only offices were left 20:39:06 because you could get out of office duties by paying someone else to do them 20:39:13 ais523: i think that is naive to say. there are many reasons why currencies collapse, but i don't think it ever happens because people all at once decide that currency is not as valuable as it once was. from what i've seen it happens when actual real world conditions change to modify the perceived value of the coin 20:39:29 elliott: see my attempt to create a new economy at Agora 20:39:33 which I need to get back to 20:39:35 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:39:35 although tomorrow 20:39:39 Phantom_Hoover! 20:39:45 ais523: I probably oppose it, because now I'm all set on reviving the PBA but better 20:39:48 ais523: we have contracts now, right? 20:39:49 for instance, when someone changes the rules about what can be done with currency 20:39:51 elliott: no 20:39:56 ais523: well, can we get contracts back? 20:40:01 but the PBA needs something to refer to 20:40:06 and my new economy works a bit like contracts 20:40:17 you could still create banks, but in nomic they need something to back the 20:40:18 *them 20:40:22 mostly because otherwise they have nothing to trade 20:40:28 so my plan would create the banking 20:40:31 *backing 20:40:35 and you could go nuts on top of that 20:40:37 ais523: like I said, work is the backing 20:40:42 as well as other currencies 20:40:48 in fact, the other trades would be based on "work = {transfer me X}" 20:41:10 elliott: and that work is what I was planning to make into a currency 20:41:14 or more precisely, actions 20:41:27 ais523: hmm, perhaps then; I think contract law was a good way of doing that, though 20:41:30 more or less like the Vote Market, except not so hideously stupid 20:41:36 ais523: although contract law would be better if it was based on individual pledges 20:41:40 you can emulate contracts with those, I think 20:41:42 it's really an attempt to bring back something contract-like 20:41:45 and even emulate equity enforcement with them 20:41:48 basically, it's tradeable pledges 20:41:56 you write a message, you can give it to other people 20:42:02 and they can spend it to make you send it 20:42:19 ais523: can we finally define infinitesimal time to allow message ordering to be formally defined at the same time? 20:42:23 that'd be useful, to define "message" 20:42:33 ais523: (otherwise it might be judged that you have to include headers too! :D) 20:42:43 there's an argument about that atm (my contested registration) 20:43:02 I tried to get it as close to the player/not-a-player borderline as possible, I think I judged it quite well 20:43:45 hmm, I wonder why I haven't made any bitcoins yet 20:43:52 possibly they haven't passed my set 0.01 pool threshold 20:44:34 "Bitcoin is a form of domestic terrorism because it only harms the economic stability of the USA and its currency" ;; I hope nobody's actually said this... 20:44:54 "Bitcoins are stored in wallet files, just copy the wallet file to get more coins!" ;; lol :D 20:45:02 this faq is great, bunch of stupid questions :) 20:46:12 the thing that prevents the coin copying is that if you spend both copies, only one can be baked into a block by whoever's mining (or it isn't a valid block), and they get to choose which of the transactions is valid 20:46:17 elliott, actual criticism I have: All transactions are public. Even though the identities are conceiled, it may be worked out what's going on to some degree 20:46:30 OK, I have returned to calmness (also home :P ) 20:46:43 if someone apparently sends you bitcoins, you're supposed to wait for a chain past that point to build up to be sure you actually have them and they wern't lying 20:46:44 *weren't 20:46:50 ais523: practically, it's that you have to rewrite the rest of history to get anything to trust you, IIRC 20:46:54 which is rather difficult 20:47:11 ais523: but yeah, when the faucet gave me 0.05 coins it started off unconfirmed 20:47:14 now it's up to 42 confirmations 20:47:19 and even then, it only lets you double-spend your own coins 20:47:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:47:38 "Nick Clegg tops April Fools poll after pretending to keep a pre-election promise" 20:47:46 Phantom_Hoover: I HOPE YOU ENJOYED THAT PING 20:49:43 [[Bitcoin community are anarchist/conspiracy theorist/gold standard weenies 20:49:43 CONFIRMED]] 20:49:45 Best FAQ entry ever. 20:50:07 well, [[Myths]] entry 20:50:13 it's not actually the FAQ 20:52:23 Do you have a Windows binary of ImageMagick for Fourier transforming? 20:52:32 Yes. 20:54:03 elliott: interesting approach 20:54:29 ais523: what? 20:55:55 elliott, actual criticism I have: All transactions are public. Even though the identities are conceiled, it may be worked out what's going on to some degree 20:56:00 Sgeo: You can create a new address for every transaction. 20:56:13 elliott: question: if I have coins in my wallet, that were sent to my keypair A, can I transfer them to keypair B without leaving a trace connecting keypair A and B? 20:56:21 elliott: but you can figure out how each coin was traded 20:56:28 so you'd need to do some sort of crazy money laundering 20:56:34 quintopia: only if you refuse to pay the transaction fee 20:56:36 say by converting them to real-word currency and back 20:56:48 quintopia: which is Bad Behaviour 20:56:52 but perfectly possible 20:57:14 elliott: well, the previous history of owners of every bitcoin is recorded; it has to be , or it wouldn't work 20:57:21 ais523: re: tracking things, I suspect it would get lost in the noise 20:57:25 quite probably 20:58:32 elliott: but wouldn't you, in that case, be paying a transaction fee to yourself? 20:58:52 quintopia: err, no, you just wouldn't pay one at all 20:58:58 i mean 20:59:01 if you did pay it 20:59:05 who would you pay it to 20:59:22 quintopia: the network 20:59:26 and how would it record that you changed the key you are using for the coin 20:59:35 * elliott tries to figure out whether "Building nuclear reactor at home - from scratch" is an AF or not 21:00:46 What happens with FFT, if you switch the magnitude and phase? What happen if you mirror the phase image and leave the magnitude as is? What if you did the other way around? 21:00:53 It's certainly been done. 21:01:09 Phantom_Hoover: oh, comments prove that it's certainly plausible (although not actually a nuclear reactor), but I'm still not sure 21:01:21 zzo38: Things. Various things. 21:01:26 Changes in the result according to the changes you make. 21:01:29 Link, BTW? 21:01:32 http://notalwaysright.com/lindsay-lohan-is-bad-for-your-health/10933 Bahaha 21:02:07 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ggg43/guys_ive_just_built_tiny_nuclear_reactor_at_home/ 21:02:09 "ggg" OMG IT'S A BITCOIN 21:02:28 elliott: you got one from the distributed block-finding thing? 21:02:29 Zuh? 21:02:36 ais523: no, see the url above 21:02:39 Phantom_Hoover: bitcoins start with a lot of 0s 21:02:44 so my mental pattern matcher has now short-circuited 21:02:55 ah 21:03:11 you saw three gs at the start of the URL, thought "that's unlikely", and assumed it was valuable? 21:03:15 "Tiny" and "nuclear reactor" don't go so well together ... 21:03:16 yes! :D 21:03:21 Gregor: it's not a real nuclear reactor 21:03:26 elliott, I'm thinking that's legit. 21:03:28 ais523: apparently I'll get an email once I reach the stunning total of 0.01 bitcoins 21:03:36 Phantom_Hoover: yes; the title seems AF-geared, though 21:03:50 ais523: because i turned on email on payout :) 21:03:55 I've actually thought of a potential problem that isn't addressed there 21:04:14 er, in what? bitcoins? reactors? 21:04:15 "Gamma-decay" 21:04:17 bitcoins 21:04:17 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFf 21:04:49 the way mining works, if you want consistent payouts rather than gambling - and probably most people will - it's in your interests to join the largest mining group 21:04:53 THERE IS NO SUCH THING YOU IDIOTS 21:04:57 which would over time lead to the smaller ones collapsing 21:05:08 ais523: that's not quite true 21:05:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:05:15 which would give the people in charge of the group a lot of control 21:05:25 ais523: it's been shown that over infinite time, ignoring difficulty changes, the payout of a group ~= the payout of doing it manually 21:05:29 (or even ==, I'm not sure) 21:05:30 Hmm, cobalt-60 doesn't even emit gamma radiation without decaying, it just emits gamma radiation when it beta decays. 21:05:32 elliott: OK, so from skimming that, I agree; it's not a nuclear reactor, it's a nuclear flashlight :P 21:05:41 Once again my chemistry textbook is full of crap. 21:05:45 ais523: if you have limited hardware, a group is infinitely better because of difficulty increases and time 21:05:46 elliott: it's the same on average, but it's more consistent in a group 21:05:54 Not as bad as it saying that GFMs are unitless, I suppose. 21:05:55 and more consistency = good for most people 21:06:04 ais523: but if you have a bunch of good GPUs, a pretty sustained rate of 50 bitcoins is far nicer looking 21:06:10 ais523: than a steadier rate of a lot less 21:06:27 ais523: and, let's face it, "most people" aren't going to mine 21:06:37 they'll get bitcoins in far more reasonable ways (assuming "most people" adopt it, that is) 21:06:49 they probably are if bitcoin catches on, otherwise transaction fees will go up very high 21:07:14 well, they'll set their idle resources to it, I suppose, but mining without a GPU is already hideously impractical 21:07:16 even in a pool 21:08:44 I say hideously 21:08:52 what I mean is, I got bored enough to check out a GPU miner before I mined anything with a CPU 21:09:14 GPU is just much better for that sort of thing 21:10:14 * elliott tries to figure out the words to justify a GPU cluster as a financial investment 21:10:17 ;D 21:12:28 I wonder if the EFF will appreciate a ~5 cent donation 21:15:34 argh, my wm has fucked up again 21:15:43 elliott: I bet they will 21:15:49 not very much, but slightly 21:15:53 heh 21:16:05 I think I'll hoard my bitcoins until I have more than that :-P 21:16:12 seriously though, argh, why does my wm do this 21:17:22 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:17:25 -!- elliott has joined. 21:17:33 I should run the miner on the console instead... or just ditch X entirely 21:17:36 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 21:17:36 -!- elliott has joined. 21:21:38 -!- augur has joined. 21:25:12 oh, my total reward so far is ~0.00065 bitcoins 21:25:15 NOICE 21:25:45 ais523: ugh, you re-re-did the c-intercal build system? 21:25:49 oh god, don't tell me it was esr 21:26:00 no, he tried to 21:26:05 and I redid it myself in order to stop him 21:26:14 but that was months ago 21:26:15 ais523: why did he want to redo it? 21:26:22 generated files in the repo, of all things 21:26:26 which should be irrelevant 21:26:28 ais523: he _wanted_ that? 21:26:35 no, he wanted there to be none at all 21:26:48 so basically it was a case of writing a bootstrap shellscript that could generate all the files from scratc 21:26:49 *scratch 21:26:52 "The floating-point library is now automatically included if 21:26:52 21:26:52 a program NEXTs to labels in the range 5000-5999." 21:26:52 previously they generated each other 21:26:55 ew? 21:26:57 that was one of his 21:27:00 yes 21:27:03 I'm going through them to ew at them 21:27:04 and only if it doesn't contain any label in that range 21:27:07 which he forgot to specify 21:27:11 why is that a good thing? 21:27:11 it's saner that way 21:27:32 elliott: it's the way INTERCAL library inclusion has Always Worked, just NEXT to a line that doesn't exist and it tries to find an appropriate library 21:27:39 ah 21:27:54 "Bugs reported by Elliott Hird" yaey im fameous 21:28:10 Have you pointed out many bugs? 21:28:19 a whole four! 21:28:22 well, five 21:28:26 but Vorpal got the credit for one 21:28:32 which is the grossest injustice 21:28:49 Phantom_Hoover: OMG YOU'RE FAMOUS TOO 21:28:55 ...I am? 21:29:00 ais523: you forgot to call him Adhahamhamhmahmahhmanhnmhanhahn McSomething 21:29:03 at least I think he's said he's McSomething 21:29:04 http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/NEWS.html 21:29:27 How bad was the typo? 21:29:43 139 21:29:43 29. The function clock_gettime is now supported by the yuk profiler as an 21:29:44 140 21:29:44 alternative method of getting a high-resolution clock for profiling (it 21:29:44 141 21:29:44 is available on at least Linux). 21:29:44 Did it have the capacity to end all life on Earth? That would be a very nasty typo 21:30:07 ais523: you switched from tar to pax because POSIX deprecated the former in favour of the latter (OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHY), you should do the same for gettimeofday -> clock_gettime 21:30:14 gettimeofday was removed in POSIX 2008, replaced by clock_gettime 21:30:16 [citation needed] 21:30:19 elliott: clock_gettime is used if it exists, IIRC 21:30:25 Phantom_Hoover: for what, what I said? 21:30:29 read the posix standard yourself 21:31:01 not only that, but the libraries and compiled programs now agree on which profiling function to use! 21:31:04 (that bug was hilarious) 21:31:31 ais523: how many optimisations are there? I'm wondering if I can wile away a few hours by creating more obvious ones and giving them to you 21:31:49 elliott, citation needed for why I'm famous. 21:31:54 Phantom_Hoover: you're in the readme 21:31:55 err 21:31:57 the HISTORY file 21:32:03 which should be called Changelog 21:32:04 elliott: quite a lot; aiming for flow rather than expression optimisation would probably help 21:32:13 ais523: btw, have you informed esr that there are, in fact, modern INTERCAL implementations not derived from his? 21:32:23 he's aware of CLC-INTERCAL, but ignores it 21:32:27 he was under the impression that there weren't in his awful blog post 21:32:27 which is a weird combination 21:32:33 ais523: heh, what do you mean? 21:32:39 he knows it exists, but refuses to act as if it does 21:32:39 did you point out CLC and he said "Yeah yeah whatever"? 21:32:43 I think it's an attempt to save sanity 21:32:56 but what did he actually say when you pointed it out; or haven't you 21:33:01 also, there's J-INTERCAL; not *that* modern, but still 21:33:14 J- is just like a worse version of old-fashioned C- 21:33:19 ais523, where's the C-INTERCAL page? 21:33:24 CLC-INTERCAL has been intrinsically different forever 21:33:30 and http://c.intercal.org.uk 21:33:38 ais523: yes, but J- is both (1) pretty modern and (2) an INTERCAL implementation 21:34:09 also, it seems that with 0.29, the tarball has /just/ creeped over a million bytes 21:34:31 bloat! 21:34:43 ais523: YOU SHOULD WRITE AN INTERCAL REPL 21:34:45 ;D 21:34:52 that automatically increments statement numbers (and uses them as the prompt) 21:35:00 oh, statement numbers? 21:35:02 (so you can copy-paste lines into an intercal program directly, and also keep track of control flow... kinda) 21:35:11 ais523: line numbers, whatever 21:35:12 CLC-INTERCAL has a REPL (INTERCALC), which I've actually used before now to do some quick INTERCAL calculations 21:35:19 but it treats each statement independently 21:36:05 ais523: boring! 21:36:11 how are statement numbers done again? (number)? 21:36:37 yep 21:36:46 $ sickly 21:36:57 (1) PLEASE DO COME FROM (2) 21:37:06 elliott: that's an error already 21:37:07 (2) PLEASE DO COME FROM (1) 21:37:09 as (2) doesn't exist 21:37:14 you mean (1) PLEASE DO COME FROM #2 21:37:16 -!- cpressey has joined. 21:37:17 err, right 21:37:19 $ sickly 21:37:21 which is a no-op rather than an error if the line doesn't exist 21:37:22 === Changes reported by Phantom Hoover === 21:37:23 24. Fixed a nasty documentation typo. 21:37:25 the second line can stay the same 21:37:27 ais523: err, no 21:37:30 ais523: the second line WILL exist 21:37:30 Which typo was that? 21:37:35 ais523: you pretend every line exists already 21:37:36 Phantom_Hoover: I can't remember 21:37:41 ais523: but don't execute statements until the lines they depend on exist 21:37:42 but it was pretty bad, I said the opposite of what I meant 21:38:55 ais523: or _does_ the latter come into effect once (2) starts existing? 21:39:04 oh, wait, even better 21:39:06 $ sickly 21:39:11 (1) PLEASE DO READ OUT #1234 21:39:13 [...] 21:39:24 (2) DO READ OUT #4567 21:39:26 [...] 21:39:34 (3) DO COME FROM (1) 21:39:34 CLC-INTERCAL's WHILE would be useful for this, except it only applies to expressions 21:39:40 the second line's output has to get removed 21:39:48 DO statement WHILE expression executes the expression as soon as it makes sense and doesn't error 21:39:52 clearly it should print 21:39:55 [output] NEVER HAPPENED 21:40:00 and continues with the statement and the rest of the program 21:40:51 elliott: clearly you need Feather 21:40:57 oh god 21:41:12 hmm, is CLC-INTERCAL non-Free software too? 21:41:18 it's BSD-licensed, IIRC 21:41:22 or something very similar 21:41:26 * 2. Any changes you make must be clearly identified by comments 21:41:26 * (example: "this function rewritten by YOUR NAME to change the 21:41:26 * way bogons are emitted") 21:41:26 --rename.c 21:42:01 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/669d38f639b60093 ;; uh oh, someone who actually believes that only github has git repositories 21:42:06 elliott: it's three-clause BSD with some of the language changed for amusement value 21:42:15 thankfully, I read their other thread and it looks like they're insane in the mundane, real-world sense 21:42:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A25FRpkbDxU 21:42:40 This reminds me of Look Around You for some reason. 21:42:54 or trolling, except that what's the point in trolling a.l.i? 21:43:01 -!- cpressey has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Qdeql +Sceql +SMETANA) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:43:05 Phantom_Hoover: is it meant to be watched with 1911 mode on? 21:43:07 because this is hilarious 21:43:14 cpressey, always the marketer! 21:43:29 looks like elliott's back 21:43:31 elliott, no, it should be watched so you can understand the SCIENCE? 21:43:31 elliott: wait, it's April 1, why are you believing him? 21:43:45 he might have been sneaky and put Thue and Unlambda in there instead! 21:43:51 "Hmm. Indeed, this forum is indeed not very mephitic. And I *do* feel like escaping my matrix of solidity... aha! The solution to my woes!" 21:44:02 Phantom_Hoover: surely you've clicked the 1911 in the corner 21:44:13 I have. 21:46:18 are things like 1911 mode kept forever? 21:46:29 as in, accessible after April 1 via an URL param or whatever? 21:46:53 ais523: well, TEXTp wasn't 21:46:55 I don't think 21:46:58 1911 should be, though 21:47:01 it makes every video better 21:47:14 it makes it hard to hear the sound, and the picture's a bit flaky 21:47:31 it makes it impossible to hear the sound, it's muted 21:47:36 unless you're joking 21:48:04 it wasn't so much a joke, as an understatement to make the sentence flow a bit better 21:48:27 WOOO I'M ABOUT HALF WAY TO 0.01 BITCOINS 21:48:39 this computer is not a very fast compuer. 21:48:41 *comptuer. 21:48:42 *computer. 21:48:44 *HALF-WAY 21:48:47 i can't type 21:49:30 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: off to implement another one I suppose). 21:51:29 I found LodePNG. It can use C or C++ (just rename the file and the compiler will use C mode or C++ mode). Probably I could remove the parts I don't need. Maybe I could convert the rest to CWEB? Would it work? 21:52:35 meh, /me kills the miner for now, want to do some programming and it's too laggy 21:52:51 I'll save it until I have a desktop with a decent GPU 21:54:55 ais523: is gcc's [index] = foo array thing C99 or GNU C89+? I know you've used it, in DNA Maze 21:57:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 21:59:20 elliott: C99 21:59:43 register Cell tos asm("al"); 21:59:44 register Cell sos asm("ah"); 21:59:45 wonder if that will work 22:00:14 hmm, Befunge-93 programs have a hard limit to the number of stack they can use, right? 22:00:18 *amount of 22:00:23 because they have a maximum number of cycles 22:00:25 oh wait, that's not true 22:00:28 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:00:28 "1" uses infinite stack 22:02:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:02:49 oh wait, the befunge-93 stack is of 32-bit words 22:02:51 err, ints 22:03:08 gah, the x86 is so register starved 22:03:30 ais523: quick! what's a non-eax general purpose register 22:03:36 (as in _really_ general purpose :-P) 22:06:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:07:16 oh, lame, fizzie's ff3 does exactly what mine is going to 22:07:43 although it does break the standard 22:08:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:08:59 What do I do? 22:10:24 save yourself! 22:13:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Client Quit). 22:15:31 fizzie: threaded code 22:15:37 hmm, how random is rand()%4? 22:15:39 elliott: clock_gettime is used if it exists, IIRC <-- hm if you do that, where do you look for it? On Linux it is in librt.so iirc. On FreeBSD it is in libc.so I think. 22:15:53 Vorpal: I look for it in autoconf 22:16:01 I think by trying to link it to libc and librt and seeing what happens 22:16:05 ah 22:16:23 ais523, libc first I presume? Since iirc FreeBSD has librt as well... With different stuff 22:16:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:16:38 I think I try to link them both at once 22:16:39 elliott: Oh, that; well, yes, sure. Though I think it's even more characterized by the "different instruction implementations for all cardinal deltas" thing. (Though mooz's "bef" did that too.) 22:16:42 Does rand()&3 work? Does it work better, or worse, if there is a difference? 22:16:51 fizzie: I'm doing that too, after seeing yours :P 22:17:01 zzo38: it should obviously be identical, by the laws of & 22:17:04 and the laws of % 22:17:11 zzo38: it works worse than rand()/(RAND_MAX/4) on old implementations of rand(), and the same as rand()%4, obviously 22:17:17 fizzie: You can't have non-cardinal deltas in -93, though. 22:17:18 on modern implementations, all should be much the same 22:17:32 elliott, hm, in df it seems that the z level counter can go to negative values... range on current map seems to be -17 - 120 22:17:42 fizzie: I "plan" to turn it into a proper ripoff of jitfunge98, though. 22:18:02 especially as modern compilers optimise %4 into &3 always 22:18:10 hmm, how random is rand()%4? <-- I would presume it depends on your libc. 22:18:11 as bitwise AND is faster than integer MODULO 22:18:33 elliott: typical LCRNGs, the high-order bits are more random than the low-order bits 22:18:34 grr @ http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html 22:18:46 ais523: yeah, it's just befunge though, ? should be random enough with rand() :-D 22:18:55 ais523: Yes, such optimizations are helpful when macros are being used. 22:18:58 elliott: Right. I also had a version that macrologized in implementations on all (well, most) possible {stack cell type, playfield element type, another parameter, yet another parameter} option -- so you could select those options on runtime instead of compile-time -- but it grew too large for GCC to handle, I think. 22:19:35 what I mean is that rand()/(RAND_MAX/4)) is a better implementation than rand()%4 on some systems, and equal on most others 22:19:35 elliott, why do you want to do befunge93? Besides how many fingerprints did you do in your last befunge98 implementation? And did you publish the source anywhere? 22:19:38 fizzie: Well, I'd quite like to optimise lines properly, too. But OTOH, proper threaded code JITting should be, you know, as fast as Forth, which is good enough for me. 22:19:42 and thus generally a better implementation 22:19:46 (Other than that, there is not much advantage over entering those optimizations manually) 22:19:50 ais523: ah 22:19:58 ais523: but, that doesn't have the bitwise-and SPEEEEEEEEED 22:19:59 well 22:20:04 especially as one is a shift and the other is a bitwise-and, and they're both as fast as each other 22:20:07 unless RAND_MAX is a convenient power of two, and a macro 22:20:11 or a constant, which I suppose is a given 22:20:15 yes, it's a constant 22:20:26 still one more instruction 22:20:30 actually, you probably want (RAND_MAX+1)/4 22:20:35 and allow for integer overflow 22:20:36 nope, macro 22:20:38 just checked 22:20:40 I didn't use the rand() command, I made the program, it has its own random number generator, the Xorshift algorithm. It will do modulo, but if the number is too high it will try again (this rarely happens). 22:20:46 Vorpal: >> 28 compared to & 3? 22:20:51 same instruction count either way 22:21:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:21:13 ... 22:21:30 that assumes that RAND_MAX is not a lot smaller than INT_MAX 22:22:33 fizzie: my main innovation, BTW, is to put the TOS into a register, and hopefully the SOS too if I can find another free register 22:22:37 I'm not sure whether that will be an optimisation or not 22:23:50 Is this code OK? if(rng_w<=max_uint-(max_uint%limit)) return rng_w%limit; else 22:24:22 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers 22:24:29 Sgeo: old 22:25:00 fizzie: How much does stringmode screw with your performance? 22:25:01 elliott: I did that -- well, I mean, I put TOS into a separate variable, which is sort-of analogous -- but didn't manage to make it any better than the simpler stack. 22:25:05 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:25:18 Sort of analogous except it won't go into a register at all :P 22:25:41 I do not think the C standard requires that a compiler supports handwriting recognition. 22:25:48 zzo38: whoosh 22:25:54 elliott: Well, that's up to the compiler; certainly it could. 22:26:03 fizzie: But it won't. :p 22:26:25 elliott: I might have tried declaring it as a file-scope register variable too, in which case it definitely will. 22:26:37 Definitely? I thought gcc likes to ignore register. 22:26:46 Is there a Befunge-93 benchmark? :-P 22:26:50 Not if you name the register. 22:27:19 "Global register variables reserve registers throughout the program. This may be useful in programs such as programming language interpreters which have a couple of global variables that are accessed very often." 22:27:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: REboot). 22:27:44 elliott: ghc does it! 22:27:53 olsner: wat 22:28:03 uses global register variables 22:28:08 fizzie: Yes; you didn't specify you named the register, though. 22:28:10 olsner: When? :P 22:28:27 elliott: throughout the last 2-3 years I believe 22:28:38 olsner: I mean, in which case. 22:28:41 *cases. 22:28:42 always? 22:29:03 every time you declare a global? 22:29:11 I mean, just generally stores some data in dedicated registers that are reserved throughout the runtime of the program 22:29:28 elliott: Well, I don't really recall what all I tried, to be honest. Anyhoo, re stringmode, that's not very clever; as a matter of fact, at " it just calls a push_string() function, which isn't even constant-delta parametrized. 22:30:15 And re benchmarks, the only thing I've used is the "run life.bef for N seconds, measure the amount of generated output", which is... pretty bad, as far as benchmarks go. 22:30:49 hmm, does Output Integer output a space after like funge-98? 22:30:51 Also here's what ff2 tried to do: http://p.zem.fi/mf5a.c ... it didn't quite turn out well. 22:31:02 Yes, there's a space. 22:31:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:32:14 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:32:16 Maybe I'll just only support 64-bit processors. 22:32:22 For the registers :P 22:32:44 is this for your miniforth? 22:32:59 No X-D 22:33:02 ff3 puts three zeroes underneath the the stack so that it can just do the operation without worrying about the stack, and then fix it up later. (I think it was an optimization in at least some cases.) 22:33:10 wat :'( 22:33:25 olsner: Feel free to code a compiler for that and maybe I'll start working on it again :P 22:33:25 does that mean you've dropped the forth thing or that it's done? 22:33:33 (I shamelessly stole the wrapping thing from mooz, too.) 22:33:41 fizzie: Heck, I'm not even bothering to check at all. 22:33:42 olsner: See above. 22:33:51 olsner: A compiler would probably be pretty easy, but I'm lazy. 22:34:07 (ff1 used to wrap by having a 256x256 playfield and byte-sized ops, but that's pretty slow since it has a huge playfield to walk around in regular-sized programs.) 22:34:17 bah, "above" is not nearly specific enough for me to look it up 22:34:30 olsner: olsner: Feel free to code a compiler for that and maybe I'll start working on it again :P 22:34:36 Right after your "wat". 22:34:41 oh, for the forth thing 22:35:10 Ugh 22:35:10 I might! I don't really know how to do forth though 22:35:26 olsner: All a compiler has to do is allocate a dictionary entry, and then look words up, and append them with either CALL or RET to the dictionary entry. 22:35:39 olsner: Well, technically some words have compile-time semantics. But I think colorForth gets around this. 22:35:42 elliott: Oh, it seems that ff3 has a -DUNSAFE_STACK=1 compile-time option for a no-underflow-checking stack too. (Since I generally don't pop from the empty stack myself.) 22:35:47 So no worries, branches can be handled later :P 22:35:56 elliott: you make it sound like it's trivial - that would imply that you're stupid 22:35:59 fizzie: You still break the spec for /. 22:36:03 olsner: No - it would imply that I'm lazy. 22:36:24 fizzie: Now to figure out how to do # without breaking my code structure :P 22:36:31 Maybe I could temporarily overwrite the next command with a nop. 22:36:44 Except figuring out the next command is non-trivial, because my delta functions also interpret. 22:36:45 elliott: that too! 22:38:01 elliott: You mean the "won't ask the user for /0" thing? It's not exactly stated in the http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html spec, I don't think. Though I admit it would be the more proper thing to do. 22:38:13 fizzie: It would be SO PROPER 22:38:44 gah, the & spec is so vague 22:38:51 Funge-98 spec says Befunge-93 is supposed to ask the user, but I don't think that quite counts as a specified thing. 22:39:09 It's like C++ spec saying things about what C does. :p 22:39:14 Also also, is there a way to tell gcc to fill the rest of an array initialised with [x] = y constructs with a certain value? 22:39:38 For a certain value of 0 that's easy. :p 22:39:56 Yes, well, it's not 0 :P 22:40:04 And does ~ reflect on EOF? 22:40:07 Don't think there's anything else, unfortunately. 22:40:29 There's not much reflecting going on in the '93 land. 22:40:46 What's ~ do then, push -1? 22:40:52 I probably do that. 22:41:12 You could test against the reference implementation, of course. 22:41:15 LESS BRANCHES, after all. 22:41:21 Although EOF is not guaranteed to be -1. 22:43:33 fizzie: According to some talk page nobody, values on the stack should be a "signed long int". 22:43:37 According to the Befunge-93 documentation. 22:43:40 That is, by proxy. 22:45:02 LodePNG is written by one guy who also did some things with esolangs too. 22:47:00 fizzie: Hunh, what's this with you supporting diagonal deltas? 22:47:29 Ohh, I see what you mean with a fluhfluh for every fluhfluh. 22:47:33 I'm doing it the boring way. 22:51:42 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:58:02 Actually I do have this benchmark.bef I got from somewhere, but as far as benchmarks go it's alsp pretty poor. Full contents: 22:58:05 91+:*-:0`#@ #._ 22:58:50 (At least it gets nice performance boost from the boundary-tracking wrapping.) 22:59:06 (Sleeptime now.) 23:06:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:14:39 -!- wawawareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:14:59 -!- wawawareya has joined. 23:36:01 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:38:57 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:42:21 * iconmaster is enjoying being locked in his matrix of solidity. 23:42:37 * oerjan is hating it with a passion 23:42:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:42:57 It just so.... Solid! 23:51:21 iconmaster: Enjoy! 23:51:29 oerjan: What, you wanna be LIQUID? Get outta my house. 23:51:39 GASEOUS maybe? NO WAIT: oerjan, FREED in his matrix of PLASMOLOGY. 23:51:41 YEAH, RIGHT. 23:51:46 ...so Emacs Lisp is lexically scoped now. 23:55:07 Whenever I see (defun ...) in Lisp, I think STOP TAKING THE FUN OUT OF MY SUBROUTINES. 23:59:17 iconmaster: Can those kind of things be changed with macros or something like that, so that you can use your own words? 2011-04-02: 00:00:39 zzo38: I would rename defun 'addfun'. 00:00:47 Makes Lisp FUN! 00:01:14 is Links (or any of its variants) at all usable? do the missing features get irksome? 00:02:32 iconmaster: Is there some command in Lisp to rename commands? If there is, then you can use that in your own programs, maybe. 00:04:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:04:48 zzo38: IDK, I haven't gotten that far in my Lisp book i'm reading. I bet it's there, though. I actually dont know much Lisp. 00:06:51 zzo38: there is 00:07:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.). 00:07:24 in fact, it was probably the first language to have a complete meta-programming language built in. 00:07:52 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed). 00:08:13 -!- variable has joined. 00:12:25 hi variable 00:12:39 is Links (or any of its variants) at all usable? do the missing features get irksome? 00:12:47 it's more usable than lynx, less usable than anything else. 00:12:57 elinks supports slightly more than links I think, but most people seem to prefer links. 00:12:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:13:03 also links has that graphical mode that can even work on the framebuffer. 00:14:52 my real question is "can it run gmail right" 00:15:24 hahaha. 00:15:27 quintopia: you mean the javascript version? 00:15:30 hahahahahahaha 00:15:43 i know links and variants support js 00:15:49 i don't know which versions 00:15:52 yeah. no. 00:15:56 on the latest variants 00:15:59 The only telephone in all of hell (local calls only, please). 00:16:03 links' js engine was removed IIRC 00:16:06 because it was unsalvagably shit 00:16:16 quintopia: why don't you want to use a graphical browser, anyway 00:16:19 or gmail's html version 00:16:34 eh, i'd give the latter a shot 00:16:39 quintopia: why don't you want to use a graphical browser, anyway 00:16:51 i don't want to use a mouse 00:16:56 quintopia: conkeror. vimperator 00:17:05 both much easier to use w/ kb than links 00:17:12 yeah? 00:17:17 do tell 00:17:18 considering they're designed for it, yes. 00:17:32 conkeror if you want emacs. vimperator if you want vim. 00:17:35 they don't require me to memorize thousands of keyboard shortcuts do they? 00:17:44 i want it to be obvious which keys do what 00:17:46 try a dozen. 00:17:56 a key is just a single letter. it is impossible for it to be self-documenting. 00:17:58 you want dry water. 00:18:12 but it can be obvious 00:18:23 like the way irssi maps keys to windows 00:18:32 it makes perfect intuitive sense 00:18:35 ok. so that's a single numerical selection done. 00:18:38 and you can only have one of them 00:18:41 it doesn't have to be self-documenting, jsut intuitive 00:18:44 that does not in any way generalise. 00:18:57 intuitive is another word for familiar. you are evidently new to these kinds of browsers. 00:19:04 thus apart from the common subset shared with editors, it cannot be intuitive. 00:19:09 they are not the same thing 00:19:14 yes, they really are 00:19:24 http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html 00:19:28 intuitive equals familiar. 00:19:42 no, they are similar concepts, but not the same 00:19:47 they are the same. 00:19:51 quintopia: anyway, if you actually want it, learning a dozen or so keys is trivially a sunk cost. 00:20:04 if you use a browser often, it would be difficult for them not to stick. 00:20:05 intuitive means "there is a ready metaphor for mapping the new ideas to familiar ones" 00:20:13 they don't have to already be familiar in themselves 00:20:25 but yeah a dozen doesn't sound bad 00:20:32 quintopia: http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html 00:20:38 intuitive equals familiar. 00:20:41 "there is a ready metaphor ..." = familiar. 00:20:53 why do you keep citing that page when i've already told you i disagree with it 00:21:07 or maybe i disagree with your use of "equals" 00:21:26 quintopia: because you responded instantly and therefore have not read it 00:21:33 (or you would have responded, "I've read that before") 00:22:23 it's very long. shall i go read it and come back and tell you whether i've changed my mind about disagreeing of your self-proclaimed summary of it? 00:22:25 jef raskin is(/was) pretty much the god of human-computer interaction, so the article is well worth reading 00:22:36 quintopia: yes. also, my summary is in fact the title. 00:22:50 so it is 00:22:54 i don't really expect you'll change your mind as people rarely do, at least not immediately, but *shrug* 00:23:03 how can i agree with a paper when i disagree with its title? 00:24:03 how many people will disagree vehemently when they hear "Property is theft!" and on further consideration of Proudhon's words, agree? 00:24:07 I'd say significantly more than zero. 00:24:18 the article is to convince you that the title means something, and that that meaning is true 00:24:41 you are expected, therefore, to have an open mind about the topic in question for the duration of reading and mentally processing the article. this is how things work, I think. 00:26:27 come ooon, bitcoins! get mined! 00:26:31 SO CLOSE TO 0.01 00:26:53 omfgg my gpu sucks hard 00:27:01 i'm getting like 5.6 megahashes/sec 00:27:09 and people with real graphics cards get >300 00:27:39 i can agree with the part where it says "intuitive = uses readily transferred, existing skills." that's almost exactly what i said earlier. 00:28:17 quintopia: then what is your definition of familiar 00:28:18 22:19:35: elliott, why do you want to do befunge93? Besides how many fingerprints did you do in your last befunge98 implementation? And did you publish the source anywhere? 00:28:28 Vorpal: I wanted to do befunge-93 because I dunno, I felt like I could get it fast. 00:28:54 Vorpal: 00:28:55 [~/Code/shiro/Shiro/Fingerprints]% l *.hs 00:28:55 BOOL.hs DIRF.hs EVAR.hs FILE.hs FING.hs MODU.hs NULL.hs REFC.hs ROMA.hs 00:28:59 right 00:29:06 (One of those is incomplete; I forget which.) 00:29:10 I just hope it don't die next time you move to another computer 00:29:18 I could easily add more, but I'm waiting on a monadic epiphany to reduce code clutter. 00:29:22 familiar means basically "automatic" in my mind. muscle memory. no remapping is needed, because you've done this before, you've got this. 00:29:29 elliott, thus I hope you uploaded the source somewhere 00:29:43 also, how else could it get into mycology? 00:29:47 Vorpal: It still passes Mycology in less than a second. 00:29:57 I suspect that would be quicker were I not running that miner. Maybe. 00:29:59 elliott, yep. And? 00:30:03 Maybe not. 00:30:10 quintopia: that's "known" 00:30:14 elliott, miner? Err? 00:30:41 elliott: yes. i would agree with familiar=known 00:30:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:30:55 Vorpal: re: another computer, it won't. 00:31:05 Vorpal: I haven't uploaded it yet but I will do once I restructure it and add enough to run slowdown.b98. 00:31:12 ah 00:31:24 then I'll replace the fungespace with that one I was considering to make that go quickly. 00:31:30 What do you mean by how else could it get into Mycology? 00:31:33 Vorpal: miner - bitcoins. 00:32:00 ah 00:32:08 elliott, Deewiant's style of funge space? Or your own? 00:32:26 You mean the one Deewiant has now or the one Deewiant wishes he had (k-d tree)? 00:32:40 elliott, either actually 00:32:58 I was planning on a bounding volume hierarchy type thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounding_volume_hierarchy), because a random Stack Overflow comment said it was usually lighter-weight than k-d trees. Also I /msg'd Deewiant about it and he said it might be suitable. :p 00:33:01 elliott, besides wasn't k-d to organise the boxes or such? 00:33:13 Well, yes. But "the boxes" are just flat arrays. 00:33:17 indeed 00:33:28 I might go with a quadtree in-between because it's easy. 00:33:33 But I don't think that'd help with slowdown, much. 00:34:08 -!- mtve has joined. 00:34:13 But anyway, I'm pretty happy with Shiro as it is; it passes Mycology with flying colours, and quickly; it doesn't leak memory (that I know of); etc. 00:34:23 And it's still less than 4000 lines last I checked. 00:34:28 elliott, tried valgrind on it? 00:34:29 (Including fingerprints.) 00:34:33 Vorpal: Uh. It's Haskell. 00:34:40 Vorpal: I don't think it'd like the GC. 00:34:45 Vorpal: Or anything. 00:34:55 elliott, valgrind can manage with some GCs. It doesn't crash for all... 00:35:07 elliott: is shiro now a complete impl of b98? 00:35:10 I can >/dev/null with valgrind, right? 00:35:12 And it prints to stderr? 00:35:14 elliott, For example, with python's GC it just spews errors, instead of crashing. 00:35:19 quintopia: It's been a complete impl since about day three or four :P 00:35:23 elliott, I think valgrind goes to stderr yes 00:35:27 Maybe even late day two. 00:35:50 Hmm, valgrind sure does slow a program down. 00:35:51 elliott, more like mid-morning day three 00:35:55 iirc 00:36:07 Well, whatever. Early on :) 00:36:15 Uh, I should probably do --leak-check=full? 00:36:19 At least it printed no errors, just summaries. 00:36:22 elliott, but anyway, it wouldn't have been that fast without the constant help of Deewiant 00:36:23 It "suppressed" 4 from 4, though. 00:36:41 elliott, suppressed is about stuff in libc. 00:36:41 Vorpal: Well, actually, after I figured out how profiling works most of the optimisation was me. 00:36:45 Apart from that one stupid function. 00:36:56 It was the *compliance* that Deewiant helped shitloads with :P 00:37:05 (I know how profiling works, I mean, I just didn't know how to get GHC to do it.) 00:37:11 elliott, like, strlen optimised because it knows it can access invalid memory as long as it doesn't cross a page boundary 00:37:13 that sort of stuff 00:37:32 It was the *compliance* that Deewiant helped shitloads with :P <-- that is what I meant 00:37:40 elliott, I meant fast, as in fast development 00:37:49 Ah. 00:37:49 not fast as in fast execution 00:38:12 Well, see, Deewiant is the only person who knows the details of Deewiantfunge-98, which is the language that every Mycology-compliant interpreter implements :P 00:38:32 ==18138== 98,964 (384 direct, 98,580 indirect) bytes in 3 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 16 of 16 00:38:32 ==18138== at 0x4C2815C: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:236) 00:38:32 ==18138== by 0x593FAE2: __gconv_open (gconv_open.c:197) 00:38:32 ==18138== by 0x593F5F1: iconv_open (iconv_open.c:72) 00:38:32 ==18138== by 0x4AA0C4: ??? (in /home/elliott/Code/shiro/shiro) 00:38:42 Dunno what that's about. (With --leak-check=full.) 00:38:48 hm 00:38:48 Anyway: ==18138== Reachable blocks (those to which a pointer was found) are not shown. 00:38:53 Pretty sure the GC keeps a pointer to things. 00:39:00 hm 00:39:17 And I'm also pretty sure that garbage can be left un-freed if they escape the GC. Say it's conservative, or the program ends before it gets GC'd. 00:39:22 So I wouldn't trust valgrind much here. 00:39:25 elliott, "Deewiantfunge-98" is one of the saner interpretations of the confusing standard. As far as I know the only direct contradiction he makes towards the standard is making t actually work. 00:39:37 Vorpal: also y's interpretation of bounds 00:39:47 unless you consider the statement that something is useful for something else bound by sanity and taking precedence over the previous line 00:39:54 elliott, Nope. The standard contradict itself there. 00:39:57 no 00:40:02 it just doesn't use the same definition of useful as you 00:40:06 elliott, It is said to be suitable iirc? 00:40:11 it says "useful" 00:40:13 ah... 00:40:18 also, it's in italics, and written informally, which makes me question its normativity 00:40:26 elliott, should ask cpressy next time he shows up 00:40:27 but even if you accept it, you have to assume "useful" is used sanely 00:40:37 and binding the Funge-98 standard to sanity is a bad idea :-D 00:40:39 elliott, come on, the whole standard is written pretty informally :P 00:40:51 Vorpal: re: cpressey: I think he's heard enough about Funge-98 for one lifetime :P 00:40:58 And seems to know the spec less well than we do. 00:41:00 hm true 00:41:05 yeah 00:41:06 elliott: as i recall, there was still a major bug past day 7 which prevented it from being called an implementation at all 00:41:17 quintopia: Which bug...? 00:41:26 If you mean the "o" thing, yes, that took a little while to fix. 00:41:30 But that's pretty minor. 00:41:31 o is optional? 00:41:34 That's true. 00:41:38 elliott, what o thing btw? 00:41:42 Vorpal: text mode, I think. 00:41:48 I implemented o but did it a bit wrongly, because I hadn't bothered to get it right yet. 00:41:50 ah yes that one is a PITA 00:41:54 But since o is optional, I could flip one bit and everything would be fine :P 00:41:59 (in y, and also make o reflect) 00:42:11 oh, and i too I guess 00:42:25 anyway, running slowdown and running fungot are the priorities, in that order. but it's still pending on me figuring out a nice way to express the maybe stacks. 00:42:25 elliott: and are you really interested or are you just rather stuck as to what the point is that using your own macros. at least not for implementing scheme? 00:42:31 elliott, text and binary more in i and o don't correspond at all in functionality :P 00:42:39 fungot: truth. 00:42:39 elliott: allocate to that result ( i.e., he's probably devoting much more time 00:42:41 Vorpal: *mode 00:42:47 indeed 00:43:16 so i think rcfunge is now completely unmaintained 00:43:20 last release april 2010 by susan 00:43:30 likely 00:43:30 not that cfunge has had a more recent release, admitteldy 00:43:31 *admittedly 00:43:42 did you ever implement that O(1) wrapping? 00:43:55 elliott, hm nope, forget. Will look at it this weekend. 00:44:16 elliott, and then probably get a release out some day soon. The code is pretty stable nowdays. 00:44:24 i cheated with that one, spawned a new thread to look into the trivial problem rather than devoting brain cells to it 00:44:34 (aka: asked my reading-mathematics friend) 00:44:46 (just to give him a taste of what his degree will go towards!) 00:44:50 (being bugged with trivialities!) 00:44:56 elliott, wait what? I don't get the context of that line " i cheated with that one, [...]" 00:45:03 Vorpal: the O(1) wrapping 00:45:05 oh 00:45:19 and reading is the Posh(tm) term for studying, before you ask 00:45:23 well, getting-a-degree-in 00:45:30 elliott, what math friend? oerjan? 00:45:40 no. not someone in this channel 00:45:43 oh 00:45:49 elliott, what's wrong with oerjan? 00:45:50 and I think oerjan's mathematics got read quite some time ago :D 00:45:57 yes that's true 00:45:58 Vorpal: i don't trust him to actually do work :D 00:46:12 elliott, you mean he will tell you to do it yourself? 00:46:20 no, he'll just sulk off. 00:46:23 ah 00:46:54 hmm, I used System.Posix.Env rather than foreign. 00:46:55 how loser of me. 00:47:21 class (Show fp, Typeable fp, 00:47:21 Typeable (FPGlobalState fp), 00:47:21 Typeable (FPIPState fp), 00:47:21 Show (FPGlobalState fp), 00:47:21 Show (FPIPState fp)) => 00:47:21 Fingerprint fp where 00:47:25 impressive 00:47:38 hmm, I used System.Posix.Env rather than foreign. <-- why is that an issue? 00:48:08 windows! 00:48:22 oh 01:02:14 huh, multics was written in a (relatively) HLL (for the 60s) 01:02:55 ah, PL/I it seems 01:09:50 Vorpal: i don't trust him to actually do work :D <-- YOU ARE WISE BEYOND YOUR YEARS. well, sometimes. 01:12:17 Someone in this channel said before that draws occur 50% in cricket. I suppose one way to make draws occur less often is to make the rules changed a bit during the last half hour of play. 01:13:03 wait, do we have someone who actually understand the rules of cricket in here? 01:13:20 I thought that was impossible unless you played it 01:13:41 he doesn't even watch it 01:13:49 wow, the word "forum" for a BBS dates back to the 60s (multics) 01:14:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:14:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 01:14:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:14:27 or, well, could be 70s 01:14:29 Vorpal: It isn't impossible. It is just a bit difficult. 01:16:35 zzo38, ... ... ... I suggest you look up hyperbole in a dictionary. 01:18:12 hmm, multics has similarities to my system 01:18:16 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:18:22 -!- coppro has joined. 01:18:37 elliott: What similarities? 01:18:52 many 01:19:39 What is a few? 01:20:47 the fs/ram unification, use of paging, use of REPL as shell... 01:20:51 "502 Bad Gateway" --mining.bitcoin.cz 01:20:53 i don't like the sound of that, nginx 01:23:06 Can you please tell me what REPL means? 01:30:20 -!- augur has joined. 01:33:28 zzo38: Read-Eval-Print-Loop. 01:33:44 (define (repl) (display (eval (read))) (newline) (repl)) ;; an example (minimal) REPL in scheme 01:33:59 basically, a prompt that lets you input program snippets, have them evaluated, and see the result. 01:34:10 an interactive shell is this for the language sh 01:34:58 hey, algol 68 called a procedure printf. wonder if it does the same as c printf. 01:35:41 yep, well kinda 01:35:47 more like a variadic print procedure 01:35:51 sort of 01:35:53 printf (($2l"The sum is:"x, g(0)$, m + n)); ¢ prints the same as: ¢ 01:35:54 print ((new line, new line, "The sum is:", space, whole (m + n, 0)) 01:37:02 -!- Gregor has changed nick to libc\x2Eso. 01:37:16 What's it at now -- $5,000? Hit your limit yet? 01:37:34 I'm not going to discuss it in this channel. 01:37:48 lol 01:38:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:46:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:49:10 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:50:16 -!- azaq23 has joined. 02:03:01 00:07:15: -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.). 02:03:01 00:12:58: -!- Sgeo has joined #esoteric. 02:03:06 Sgeo: that's a record time for finding christ 02:03:20 you could enter the christianlympics 02:05:06 That's addquotable :P 02:05:27 * elliott CACKLES EVILLY AS HE PLACES HIS $5,000 BID 02:05:35 YES IT WAS ME ALL ALONG 02:05:41 * elliott CACKLES SOME MORE 02:06:02 `addquote 00:07:15: -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.). 00:12:58: -!- Sgeo has joined #esoteric. 02:06:04 If you won't addquote it :P 02:06:04 344) 00:07:15: -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.). 00:12:58: -!- Sgeo has joined #esoteric. 02:06:18 `delquote 344 02:06:19 *poof* 02:06:27 (reformatting) 02:06:28 ... why? 02:06:30 Ah 02:06:52 Did you see when I said that the baker should support s/// lines? >: ) 02:06:53 `addquote 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric. 02:06:55 344) 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric. 02:07:06 (Yes there's inconsistency wrt quit vs joined formatting, yes it looks better this way :P) 02:07:07 -!- wawawareya has changed nick to wareya. 02:07:12 libc\x2Eso: X_X 02:07:18 libc\x2Eso: I was gonna do a client plugin for that once :P 02:11:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:11:42 hi elliott 02:11:46 sorry for the delayed reply 02:11:51 I said something? 02:11:52 :P 02:12:09 hi variable 02:12:12 oh 02:12:14 er 02:12:16 did i say anything else 02:12:19 no 02:12:22 hmm 02:12:27 wonder what i was gonna say!!!! 02:12:45 elliott: btw: what about w3m vs links? 02:12:52 oh, you just joined 02:12:58 variable: right. i like w3m a lot. 02:13:02 it isn't really similar to links though. 02:13:08 w3m is more like lynx that doesn't suck 02:13:14 links is more like a graphical browser rendered to a tty 02:13:37 What we need is e.g. a WebKit backend for curses. 02:13:40 It would be weird. 02:13:44 But it would be the best text browser. 02:14:01 libc\x2Eso: no. A Presto backend 02:14:27 variable: Good luck with convincing Opera :P 02:14:47 -!- azaq23 has joined. 02:14:55 best april fools joke today: "The GNOME Project is a community which comes together to make great software. " 02:15:09 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: I wish I had something witty to put here...). 02:15:21 libc\x2Eso: fine, find, Trident 02:15:26 *fine, fine 02:15:32 best april fools joke today: "The GNOME Project is a community which comes together to make great software. " 02:15:33 ouch :D 02:16:11 variable: Saying this as somebody who hates Apple and has painful experiences with WebKit, what do you have against WebKit? 02:17:11 libc\x2Eso: absolutely nothing 02:17:16 I love how everyone (programmer) who hates Apple loves WebKit and LLVM, in fact the two seem almost directly correlated :P 02:17:16 I was making a joke 02:17:22 It's so angsty! 02:17:32 elliott: I hate apple and love webkit and llvm :-p 02:17:39 variable: see! 02:17:40 angst! 02:18:01 I have no opinion on WebKit, although I do use it. And I like the idea of LLVM, but know little about it. Then again, the fact that I rarely actually write code... 02:18:22 MINE QUICKER, GPU 02:18:25 I have compiled WebKit. Many times. It has done things to me that are horribly inappropriate. 02:18:28 MINE MINE MINE 02:18:44 libc\x2Eso: It's sorry, it's just... it's just... it's just somewhat Sparta *breaks down sobbing* 02:18:57 elliott: No, that's v8 :P 02:19:05 IT'S SOMEWHAT SPAAAARTAAAA ;;;__;;;; 02:21:20 V8 is twisted 02:21:34 it has some insane optimizations - but is completely twisted 02:22:05 define twisted 02:22:38 the fact that js-heavy things are STILL quite slow IRL even with insane things like v8 worries me 02:22:45 I dunno what causes it, though 02:22:48 probably the DOM, nobody likes the DOM 02:22:52 let's blame the DOM 02:24:50 wow, the .p2p has turned into the worst proposal evar 02:24:55 Mainly DOM, rendering and the conversion layers between JS and the real implementation of the DOM. 02:25:05 central authority (LOL), based on trusting existing CAs (LOL) 02:25:08 "Require ownership of the same domain under another tld (like .net,.com,.org)" 02:25:13 and first-come first serve 02:25:14 lol 02:25:26 What's ... the point? 02:25:32 at this point? to fail 02:25:43 previously it was to create a decentralised naming system after the revocation rights were abused 02:25:45 (I forget in what case) 02:25:50 oh, I think it was the wikileaks debacle 02:26:02 or, no 02:26:04 ICANN domain seizures 02:26:04 whatever 02:26:09 err 02:26:11 US domain seizures 02:26:17 I want to own some semi-provocative .xxx domain with totally uninteresting content, just to be the only non-porn domain on .xxx (that doesn't just forward elsewhere) 02:26:17 nice typo there 02:26:36 Just get scholarly-discussion.xxx 02:26:58 UnofficialOverclockingEULA = I confirm that I am aware of unofficial overclocking limitations and fully understand that MSI will not provide me any support on it 02:27:00 ^ BEST SETTING EVER 02:27:06 Naw, I would get college-action.xxx and then it'll just be a discussion of various scholarly topics. 02:27:17 what is the character that in vim means "the entire file" (as a range)? 02:27:32 libc\x2Eso: hot-college-teen-actions: What to do if you're a female college student and just need to cool down! 02:27:38 *action: 02:27:43 Err, forgot to mention female in there. 02:27:49 hot-teen-college-girl-action 02:29:03 Sgeo: So did you find Christ? 02:29:44 hot-christ-on-college-girl-action.xxx // about college students finding Jesus 02:30:52 elliott, I did find an empty cave... 02:31:03 fuck-me-jesus-say-wet-lesbian-college-girls: Girls in college, who happen to be lesbian, after a water pistol fight, realise the inaccuracy of their previous beliefs and exclaim "Fuck me -- Jesus!", as an admittance that Jesus is the answer. 02:31:11 .xxx 02:31:15 Ok, that came out wrong. I did not intend for that to sound serious 02:31:28 Sgeo: THAT EMPTY CAVE IS JESUS. 02:31:50 libc\x2Eso: So anyway, about "semi-provocative" :P 02:32:01 :P 02:32:13 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:JesusOrgy.jpg 02:32:49 lol 02:34:28 quintopia: for ex mode ranges, % 02:34:51 for normal mode, G provided you are at the beginning to start with 02:35:30 oerjan: yeah i figured it out 02:35:49 or 1G if you are at the end 02:35:57 prepare for a visitor 02:35:59 be stately 02:36:04 can you give an s command that would replace the first letter of a word with F and the remaining letters with U? 02:36:14 I do not like a lot of the new TLDs. 02:36:27 i know vi doesn't support perl regexes, so i'm not sure how to do it 02:36:41 .xxx isn't a tld 02:36:59 quintopia: you could replace all with U first, then replace the first with F 02:37:11 elliott: Doesn't matter. I still do not like a lot of the new TLDs. 02:37:24 i suppose s/./U/ would do the former. how do i do the latter? 02:37:30 (Go up above where .xxx was mentioned in this channel) 02:37:34 zzo38: Do you like .coop? 02:37:39 s/\ does vi support \ hm doesn't it 02:38:10 i'll try it 02:38:18 it does 02:38:26 vi or vim 02:38:50 i was assuming vim, since that's what it started with 02:39:05 Perhaps .coop is not too bad, but I would restrict it to three letters, not four. 02:39:28 zzo38: why? lots of country TLDs are two-characters 02:39:35 no reason to not allow four characters 02:39:55 Yes, countries should be two letters and everything else three letters. 02:39:55 8.3 02:40:04 Any non-country should not be two letters. 02:40:15 .xxx isn't a tld? that's too bad. 02:40:18 Deewiant: that has nothing to do with tlds 02:40:21 zzo38: Why? 02:40:27 And some countries are three letters, IIRC 02:40:33 quintopia: It will be quite soon. 02:40:40 Or is that languages. 02:40:41 libc\x2Eso: No 02:40:46 The proposal was soundly rejected every time, was it not 02:40:51 are you ever gonna become gregor again? 02:41:01 Well, I think countries should not be three letters. They should be two letters. 02:41:05 quintopia: Never. 02:41:06 quintopia: After the auction ends :P 02:41:12 why was it rejected? 02:41:14 "The ICANN Board voted to approve the sTLD on 18 March 2011." 02:41:17 Shameful. 02:41:23 quintopia: because it is a terrible, terrible idea 02:41:29 why? 02:41:30 It's really quite silly :P 02:41:34 I really dislike .mobi. TLDs should not be used for that kind of thing. 02:41:35 lemme find the rfc about it 02:41:39 Because all the porn is already on .com 02:41:48 i think a TLD just for porn sites is a great idea 02:41:49 So having a separate TLD accomplishes nothing. 02:41:57 they would all switch! 02:42:01 Ha 02:42:02 there's a better reason 02:42:03 No they wouldn't. 02:42:08 or new sites would adopt it 02:42:12 i'm trying to find the long official paper about it 02:42:13 Ha 02:42:14 No they wouldn't. 02:42:16 quintopia: lol, you are joking right? 02:42:33 sometimes i delay laughing at people in case they're being funny, not stupid, but usually that turns out to be misguided :/ 02:42:35 man if i were a porn site, i'd totes want a .xxx name 02:42:39 If they forced all the porn there that would be terrible, and if they don't then it's pointless. Even if all new sites only went to .xxx, that's useless. 02:42:44 aha! 02:42:47 quintopia: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3675 02:42:52 RFC 3675, SEX CONSIDERED DANGEROUS 02:42:57 (when rendered in ONLY UPPERCASE LETTERS) 02:43:06 .XXX was just a money making thing 02:43:12 variable: *is just 02:43:14 It has been accepted. 02:43:24 quintopia: When an RFC is created specifically to diss your idea in amazing detail, your idea SUCKS. 02:43:39 elliott: haha - true 02:43:55 Or is just SO BRILLIANT that it's beyond the combined efforts of the RFCers :) 02:44:06 The RFC is mostly about /forcing/ all relevant things to be on that TLD (or other such restrictions). 02:44:10 elliott: but the IETF knows EVERYTHIN 02:44:15 Nobody's forcing all porn to .xxx. Aside from being infeasible it's horrible. 02:44:18 But that just makes it pointless. 02:44:37 libc\x2Eso: I still hope the .xxx TOS REQUIRE adult content. 02:44:41 *REQUIRES 02:44:49 That would be pretty hilariously awesome :P 02:44:50 the porn sites *don't* want it in fear that it *will* be forced and thus lead to *censorship* 02:44:55 Wait, .xxx is becoming real? 02:44:58 *cough* india *cough* 02:45:00 Sgeo: yes 02:45:06 8. It is not acceptable to own an .xxx domain which does not respond to HTTP requests on port 80 with teh hot pr0nz. 02:45:19 libc\x2Eso: it wouldn't be hilariously awesome until they tried to enforce it 02:45:22 9. Lesbians cut registration fees by half 02:45:30 The HEAD HTTP request will have to have new meaning 02:45:33 You don't have port: your domain is deregistered :-) 02:45:38 man, forcing them to go to xxx is stupid yes, but having .xxx at the end of your pron site domain is p awesome 02:45:58 i bet some of the bigger sites get the .xxx version of their .com name just so other people don't 02:45:59 quintopia: xxx.xxx and sex.xxx will be the most expensive I bet 02:46:07 TLDs should not be based on service or protocol or anything like that. They should be based on what country, or the owner group, or possibly also for special kind of networks. TLDs like .mobi or .gopher are dumb and do not meet this criteria. Also .cat is no good either, and .travel is also not so good. 02:46:11 quintopia: also - they do that for all the TLDs 02:46:21 zzo38: we have enough TLDs 02:46:30 zzo38, I take it you hate .museum? 02:46:31 IMHO .com, .net, .org, countries 02:46:35 that is it 02:46:35 making .xxx happen will be very profitable to the TL registrars, and therefore it is a good idea 02:46:40 You don't have port: your domain is deregistered :-) 02:46:44 they'll use those auto porn detection systems 02:46:52 and rig up the _no porn_ output to automatic deregistration 02:47:05 ones that come up as porn will be forwarded on to agents for... uhhh... double checking 02:47:06 elliott: I hope so 02:47:19 FINALLY A SAFE HAVEN ON THE INTERNET WHERE PORN IS PROTECTED 02:47:29 Yes, same with .museum, since a museum could get .com or .org instead probably (depending on whether the museum is commercial) 02:47:31 elliott: except in india 02:47:37 INDIA IS BANNED 02:47:39 IMHO .com, .net, .org, countries --> no more 02:47:42 are they blocking .xxx or something? 02:47:42 seriously 02:47:51 variable: that leaves no space for individuals 02:47:53 also, i find country tlds lame 02:48:01 AFAICT they're only ever used to reduce name conflicts 02:48:05 elliott: http://thenextweb.com/asia/2011/03/24/india-to-block-xxx-top-level-domain/ 02:48:08 or to show idiotic patriotism 02:48:22 you give yourself a .me.uk, you move to America, your domain is now silly 02:48:28 elliott: IMHO country TLDs are basically for the government sites. I don't even want to see .co.uk or whatever 02:48:35 your corporation gets a .fi, expands to become international, your domain is now silly 02:48:38 also they are useful for localization 02:48:48 although I prefer the http headers for that 02:48:51 you create patriotismhooray.us, you put waving american flag gifs on it, I hate you 02:48:58 variable: agreed wrt headers 02:49:01 although they suck for users 02:49:06 because nobody knows about them 02:49:08 and the UI is hidden 02:49:16 elliott: the interface needs to expose a "pick a language for this site" 02:49:19 yeah 02:49:30 variable: anyway, I would also add some personal TLD 02:49:32 but it'd have to be non-lame 02:49:44 elliott: personal tld? ie for random people? 02:49:44 .me is supremely lame (and yet another cctld abuse), .name is also lame 02:49:49 mostly because of the first.last.name thing 02:49:51 which is just idiotic 02:49:56 variable: for people in general 02:50:05 people aren't organisations, corporations or ISPs 02:50:05 elliott: .me is fine 02:50:11 yes, but .me is really cheesy. 02:50:24 elliott: I want to see the TLD meanings enforced though 02:50:35 ie corps CAN'T get a .me name 02:50:38 variable: Meh -- I don't like TLDs much 02:50:41 and .org is meant for NFPs 02:50:41 oerjan: does there exist a series of regex subsitutions that takes a string like "what the hell was elliott talking about?" and make it be "TROL OLO LOLO LOL OLOLOLO LOLOLOL OLOLOL" 02:50:47 or related types 02:50:57 http://fuck.me ? 02:50:59 The OpenNIC are also pretty bad -- the things they use TLDs for are not what they should be used for, with the possible (maybe) exception of .null and .glue. Maybe even .micro. But all of them ought to be reduced to three letters, and .micro should be registered as subdomains for countries and then subdomains of those as the normal domains, so all .micro would need at least three parts of the domain name instead of two. 02:51:03 variable: they're really just Yet Another attempt to impose a Great Ontology of Everything 02:51:11 which never works and never will or can work 02:51:32 elliott: I don't necc. like a hierarchical system. But can you provide a different unique identifier per "site" ? 02:51:37 * Sgeo biCYCles on elliott's head 02:51:47 (that doesn't reduce to a hash or other non-rememberable thing) 02:51:50 variable: I'm not sure. I'm also not sure you need to or want to. 02:51:54 variable: Naming is very, very hard. 02:52:01 I have a gopher service too, but gopher is the protocol, it doesn't belong in the TLD. 02:52:04 Naming is possibly the hardest thing in systems. 02:52:19 elliott: the two hardest things in computer science are naming things, cache invalidation, and off-by-one errors 02:52:24 variable: Yes yes yes :P 02:52:25 zzo38, so, you'd be opposed to gmail.email ? 02:52:27 ;) 02:52:33 But naming is the hardest by far (for systems and not actual programming). 02:52:39 Sgeo: Yes. I would be opposed to that too. 02:52:42 variable: Anyway, while I'm not a complete decentralisation nut like some people, I do find DNS worrying. 02:53:14 en.wikipedia.http 02:53:24 variable: Anyway, squaring Zooko's triangle is still something I think about on a regular basis. 02:53:34 illegalbooks.ftp 02:53:34 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko seems quite promising. 02:53:58 elliott: I'm follow DNS and related constructs very closely (IETF mailing lists, NANOG, DNS-operations, etc) I find the discussion very interest 02:54:10 variable: Yeah, I'm not the type to follow mailing lists religiously though. 02:54:13 The protocol does not belong in the TLD. If you have multiple computers on the network with different protocols, use the leftmost part to indicate the protocol, not the rightmost part. 02:54:14 espresso.coffee 02:54:33 im-a-teapot.coffee 02:54:35 In @, a global name would actually just reference an object, and you only really ever need one: past that, you can handle your own naming to your heart's content. Of course the same applies to DNS. 02:54:55 elliott: agreed. the TLDs are just namespace reduction devices 02:55:00 But in @ I'm pretty sure the naming system would just be a (bidirectional) map of name to object hash. (Object hash retrieval is a separate concern.) 02:55:03 The issue is allocating this map. 02:55:09 And distributing it. 02:55:21 variable: you might want to read that blog post, it's very interesting 02:55:28 elliott, how is BitCoin human-meaningful? 02:55:46 I think what Knuth said about naming things in computer science, in writing programs, is look in a thesaurus if you need help. 02:55:58 elliott: "dynamically translating between different possible kinds of names." --> this is how phonebooks work 02:56:01 To me, BitCoin is meaningful for experimental purposes only. 02:56:08 variable: I do not mean the article on zooko's triangle :P 02:56:12 variable: I mean http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko 02:56:16 and no, it's not really the same as a phonebook I don't think 02:56:23 elliott: similar idea 02:56:29 zzo38: bitcoin can be and is traded for real-world currency and goods 02:56:35 variable: not really 02:56:40 zzo38: Sgeo: bitcount is based on very unsound economics 02:56:42 variable: I don't think anyone's proposed this before bitcoin 02:56:45 variable: it is not 02:56:49 * economics 02:56:50 bitcoin is perfectly sound 02:57:21 variable: Yes, is one thing I mean. BitCoin is good for experimental purposes. 02:57:25 variable, I don't mean the economics part, although I'd be interesting in you describing how it's unsound. I'm more thinking how anyone thinks BitCoin has anything to do with human-meaningful names 02:57:28 elliott: reading that blog post 02:57:43 please do respond about bitcoin, though 02:59:42 elliott: I don't have the time to defend myself right now, but the basic idea is that early adopters get a uncatchable advantage in event of a sudden increase in number of users 02:59:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:00:02 variable: please don't make such strong statements if you won't defend them. 03:00:06 It's really bad for the discourse. 03:00:24 elliott: I'll defend it in a couple of days (ask me after monday) 03:00:31 variable: Anyway, that is not really true at all: if you mean because mining gets harder and then ends, mining isn't the most efficient way to get bitcoins at all. 03:00:51 have you read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths? 03:00:54 yes 03:01:04 was that a yes to my have you read? it was quite quick. 03:01:13 yes, I have read that before 03:01:30 elliott: I'm repeating the conclusion section of articles in economics journals 03:01:42 I understand the reasoning to a basic extent 03:01:53 variable: There are plenty of articles making plenty of conclusions in plenty of journals. 03:02:15 If you truly have discovered a fatal flaw in Bitcoin, I'm sure the developers would love to know about it, but I very much doubt it. 03:02:21 (Or if they have.) 03:02:29 elliott: these flaws are not 'fatal' flaws 03:02:44 You said "based on very unsound economics". 03:02:55 Things that are based on very unsound things don't tend to be salvageable. 03:03:00 elliott: I should have said: 'possibly based on unsound ...' 03:03:10 then I would disagree :) 03:03:44 Anyway, it's getting a bit too close to conspiracy theories for me to state this without implicit quotes, but it has to be said that the kind of people who write in economics journals _might_ have slightly vested interests. 03:03:47 elliott: there are other issues relating to fraud and such (as in securities fraud, not "I have a fake bitcoin" fraud) 03:03:51 Of course this should not affect the validity of the raw logic itself. 03:04:25 elliott: yes. Ask me after monday and I'll fully defend myself (or at least my understanding of the original author's argument) 03:04:34 of course I *could* be wrong 03:04:42 my understanding of economics is minimal 03:04:45 quintopia: i don't know 03:04:59 The only advantage early adopters of bitcoin have is that they can mine faster and more, and in a wider view, they are the only ones who can mine at all. But considering the real-world cash exchanges, the fact that you can buy substantial real-world goods with bitcoins (albeit not very commonly), and the fact that some people will even pay you for freelancing work in bitcoins (but again rarely), and I 03:04:59 think that mining is irrelevant in the long-run. 03:05:18 I don't think bitcoin is any more subject to securities fraud than any other currency. 03:05:21 Anyway, that's my initial statement. 03:05:34 Maybe I have a vested interest too as a miner is currently hogging up my utterly terrible GPU, but :) 03:06:14 elliott: haha 03:06:18 variable: So we're on the same page, can you agree that if Bitcoin was, in your opinion, not flawed in the economic thing, it would be a Very Good Thing? 03:07:07 elliott: I would still like the diversity that having multiple currencies gives (in event that something *does* happen) but in general I would agree that it is a Good Thing 03:07:22 Oh, certainly, more currencies is a good thing. 03:07:33 But they should have to compete :-) 03:07:55 "Tracing a coin's history can be used to connect identities to addresses. More info. " ---> this is also a major issue 03:08:14 (It is possibly an impressive feat of cognitive dissonance to maintain slightly left-wing economic opinions and support bitcoin which is a very libertarian system; I haven't decided yet.) 03:08:39 variable: that's true, but it is not as big a deal as it seems 03:08:46 variable: for one, you can use a new address for every transaction if you wish 03:09:00 variable: for two, you can avoid creating a new record by agreeing with the receiver to not pay the (optional) transaction fee 03:09:23 variable: and three, if you really want to break any record, just convert it to another currency and back 03:09:33 also: "While the Bitcoin technology can support strong anonymity, the current implementation is usually not very anonymous." 03:09:34 elliott: I've been described as a libertarian - but I disagree with some, but not all, libertarian views 03:09:48 I'm a supporter of taxes :-p 03:09:50 *:-P 03:10:14 (Less ridiculously stated, I'm a supporter of public services, which require funds.) 03:10:17 elliott: anarchy != librarian 03:10:25 ANARCHY IS A LIBRARIAN 03:10:28 Librarian? 03:10:28 JOIN THE LIBRARIAN REVOLUTION 03:10:34 BOOKS WILL SET US FREE!!!! 03:10:38 zzo38: blame aspell 03:10:45 *libertarian 03:10:47 variable: I never said libertarianism was anarchy. 03:10:51 elliott: I support *some* public services 03:10:55 not all 03:11:02 variable: But libertarians definitely oppose large (to them) taxes. 03:11:11 Which public services? 03:11:14 variable: do you support single-payer healthcare? (to use the common term) 03:11:59 elliott: libertarians oppose unneeded taxes, but anarchists say 'taxes are wrong' (or many of them do) 03:12:23 single-payer healthcare -> basically no 03:12:28 variable: the line is often blurred. consider those who desire no taxes but those which are required to support a police force 03:12:33 although my view is somewhat nuanced 03:12:38 (or in ridiculous cases, a police force that somehow requires no taxes) 03:12:42 (ofc these are idiots) 03:12:47 elliott, how does not paying a transaction fee leave anything off the record? 03:13:00 variable: then we disagree on a basically fundamental level. 03:13:06 and I doubt that is reconcilable 03:13:14 elliott: probably 03:13:21 forgive my cynicism but i've forgotten, what country do you originate from? 03:13:26 united states 03:13:31 forgive my cynicism again, but I'm not surprised 03:16:37 elliott: "the power has been shifted into your own hands. Fraud will always exist. It's up to you to only send bitcoins to trusted entities" --> another issue. In the real world people routinely have to deal with untrusted entities 03:16:56 generate new address, send bitcoin to whoever, never use it again 03:17:03 variable: also: escrow 03:17:30 "Terrorists fly aircrafts into buildings, but the governments have not yet abolished consumer air travel. " --> false in the US :-) 03:17:40 hur hur hur 03:17:57 it's now air travel only for the molested 03:18:00 such a kind service 03:18:11 not molested? No problem! They take care of that for you before you get on the plane. 03:18:43 I should move somewhere that isn't the UK so I can have my European superiority generator working honestly 03:19:06 elliott: haha 03:19:14 * variable would love to link in the .eu 03:19:18 *live 03:19:30 http://example.eu 03:20:02 It's a nice place. What with our universal healthcare and all OH BURN 03:20:52 variable: Problem with .eu is, colder it is, nicer it is :P 03:21:02 elliott: .ru is the nicest ? 03:21:03 * Sgeo likes warmth 03:21:07 Until you get to Finland, where the coldness actually causes every personality to freeze and become stone cold. 03:21:23 And after a step into Russia, it gets so cold that everyone becomes insane. 03:22:12 * Sgeo puts elliott in Antarctica 03:22:15 this miner is a horrible reminder of how pitiful my gpu is :( 03:23:19 .an Dissolved as of October 10, 2010 :-( 03:23:43 .aq Antarctica --> WOW 03:24:27 antarctica is awesome 03:25:21 variable: also: With no population, there is no indigenous economic activity. The islands' only natural resource is fish; the Australian government allows limited fishing in the surrounding waters.[19] Despite the lack of population, the islands have been assigned the country code HM in ISO 3166-1 (ISO 3166-2:HM) and therefore the Internet top-level domain .hm. The timezone of the islands is UTC+5.[20] 03:25:23 heard island 03:25:32 .hm: BEST DOMAIN EVER? 03:25:35 *TLD 03:25:52 lol @ http://praise.hm/ 03:26:03 elliott: yes 03:26:14 although .aq competes with .hm 03:26:19 Browser not working, is that link to an actual site? 03:26:36 elliott: how I register a .hm domain ? 03:26:59 http://www.registry.hm/ 03:27:05 $35/yr 03:27:16 * variable registers ham.hm 03:27:18 :-) 03:27:26 hmm.hm 03:27:55 variable: I once wanted to write a script to query all single letter domains dot two-letter ccTLD names, and then filter out the registered ones, the ones that show as "invalid", and then manually filter out the ones with a minimum length polic 03:27:56 *policy 03:28:13 I firmly believe it is possible to register a three-letter-plus-dot domain name today, just very difficult to find one 03:28:23 I know .st make a big deal about charging a lot for shorter ones 03:28:27 elliott: do it 03:28:33 probably you can get a single-letter one for $9999999999/yr 03:28:46 elliott: algorit.hm 03:28:49 variable: after bit.ly had to censor things because of sharia law, I've soured to the idea of domain hacks. 03:29:04 elliott, bit.ly censored stuff? 03:29:08 elliott: o.hm 03:29:15 what.hm 03:29:15 Sgeo: there was talk of it - duno if they actually did 03:29:22 finnish.hm 03:29:32 kill.hm 03:29:41 oh.uh.hm 03:29:54 I would get o.hm - but I don't want to spend $35 03:30:05 per year (cause I'd keep it) 03:30:11 it has to be longer 03:30:12 i checked 03:30:14 deceptionisland.aq ;; COOLEST NAME FOR AN ISLAND ON COOLEST TLD 03:30:21 (unfortunately requires www. for website, LESSENING THE AWESOME) 03:30:33 elliott: it requires a WWW ? 03:30:37 why? 03:30:46 because they set up their dns badly, presumably 03:31:11 I just want a cool domain name I could use for an IRC cloak :-p 03:31:19 Is there a hcl.aq ? 03:31:37 .aq is restricted to governments and people with a physical presence 03:33:15 Educational and scientific institutions operating in the region served by the HM domain are entitled to free registration of an appropriately selected domain name. 03:33:16 :-| 03:33:31 Christian URL shorteners. What's next, Christian Linux distros? 03:33:40 * variable sets up an educational Institute 03:33:58 Sgeo: not next, before: Ichthux 03:34:07 -!- ch2 has joined. 03:34:07 S Q L 03:34:10 test 03:34:12 variable, I had Ubuntu Christian Edition in mind, actually 03:34:13 test2 03:34:16 test3 03:34:19 yay 03:34:40 hmm, technically my code will hang for a bit if the server sends a partial line then waits for ages to complete 03:34:42 but who does that 03:34:44 Sgeo: like your last quit message? 03:34:53 variable: IN THE REGION 03:35:02 variable: good luck living on an uninhabited island :D 03:35:18 elliott: "a virtual online system to learn about the .hm region" 03:35:19 :-p 03:35:23 har har 03:35:50 elliott: and when you go their the page is empty 03:35:59 as it is a listing of the inhabitants 03:36:00 :-) 03:36:06 "this white page adequately represents the appearance of these islands" 03:36:10 * go there 03:36:22 yeah 03:36:37 "if it is not white on your computer, please adjust your browser settings for optimum results." 03:36:40 * Sgeo considers grabbing an Ubuntu SE wallpaper 03:36:46 elliott: reminds me of purple.com 03:36:51 purple.com is awesome 03:37:05 I found a subdomain where the guy had actual stuff on, but THE MYSTERY REMAINS 03:37:13 elliott: I know the guy 03:37:19 haha really? 03:37:20 *guys 03:37:22 elliott: yeah 03:37:26 he said he actually uses purple in the faq 03:37:31 so i went on a mission to find it :P 03:37:34 *purple.com 03:37:34 (which subdomain did you find ?) 03:37:53 i forget 03:37:56 it just had some photos or something 03:37:58 might have been a path 03:38:00 yeah 03:38:02 on some mountain or another :P 03:38:13 my fav thing is his donation page 03:38:13 i find the purple itself to be an inadequate purple on my display, however 03:38:26 I WANTS A GOOD DOMAIN NAME 03:38:28 i'm considering suing 03:38:44 http://www.purple.com/availability.html 03:38:48 variable: goalse.cx 03:38:52 It's possible to lease purple.com 03:38:54 elliott: support personnel often use purple.com because its easy to say over the phone 03:39:05 and it is fast loading 03:39:08 and rarely down 03:39:10 variable: don't you mean: competent support personnel 03:39:22 elliott: *sigh* yes 03:39:28 always qualify tiny subsets :-P 03:39:37 elliott: on IRC I'm not very precise 03:39:43 PRECISENESS IS MANDATORY 03:39:56 if this channel doesn't wear you out how will we ever weed the oldbies out 03:40:01 * variable smacks elliott with trout 03:40:09 oerjan has only lasted with his age with extended use of sarcasm 03:40:10 elliott: this channel is with ##cs should be 03:40:24 * Topic for ##cs set by Quadrescence at Tue Nov 30 19:18:07 2010 03:40:31 (unrelated - do you guys give cloaks - I want something other than unaffiliated) 03:40:32 thank god Quadrescence stopped bothering us. 03:40:40 variable: we're not a group afaik :P 03:40:45 elliott: hehe 03:40:51 variable: we might have trouble registering as one, because we don't reaaally own the term esoteric 03:40:56 although we worked out we have a pretty good claim 03:41:03 elliott: doesn't matter - you have the esolong wiki 03:41:07 esolang, but not esoteric 03:41:09 and esolang is ugly :-P 03:41:19 but still, were this channel created today it would be ##esoteric. thank god it wasn't, because ## is ugly. 03:41:20 elliott: same idea. I could do for you guys if you want 03:41:27 don't ops have to register it? 03:41:34 elliott: actually yeah 03:41:38 probably +F 03:41:42 -ChanServ- Information on ##cs: 03:41:42 -ChanServ- Founder : dixon 03:41:43 oh. 03:41:48 elliott: no wait 03:41:49 I lied 03:41:52 dixon is Quadrescence's other moronic troll friend. 03:41:52 * variable smacks self 03:41:58 I'm hardly surprised ##cs is a shithole 03:42:02 elliott: ops *don't* have to register 03:42:10 but but but you could be posing as us 03:42:12 elliott: as long as you have control of the website 03:42:20 they give you a token to put on 03:42:20 we don't have control of "the esoteric website" though :D 03:42:35 -ChanServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (8 years, 13 weeks, 0 days, 02:11:51 ago) 03:42:40 huh, i swear we were registered in 2006 a while ago 03:42:42 elliott: if you want to go through with this I could talk to the opers 03:42:42 maybe some DB got merged 03:42:47 elliott: I know a bunch of them 03:42:58 variable: well it's not my decision to make really 03:43:05 elliott: you == #esoteric 03:43:07 i'm happy with my cloak... but a nice domain name is nicer than a nice cloak :P 03:43:18 variable: hmm, i can think of at least seventy people who would balk at that statement 03:43:22 fing fire alwrm 03:43:26 * variable is away 03:43:33 yeah. always bothering us about fires and shit. 03:43:37 i say let it burn, i'm busy ircing! 03:44:07 Is it ever useful in cricket, to sacrifice a wicket by handling the ball or in any other way? 03:44:09 http://jeff.purple.com/ oh here we go. 03:44:12 yeah google finds this trivially. 03:44:32 and that guy's photo is freaking me out argh get back on 03:46:12 also http://www.purple.com/index2.html, done googlestalking now :-P 03:47:43 i'm happy with my cloak... but a nice domain name is nicer than a nice cloak :P // I AGREE lololol*runs* 03:48:00 says gregor, guy who doesn't even run an identd for a nicer prefix 03:48:12 I couldn't figure it out *sobblecopter* 03:48:33 you could run a fake one that only works for you 03:48:42 #!/bin/sh 03:48:44 read line 03:48:49 echo "$line : USERID : UNIX : Gregor" 03:48:55 put in inetd for whatever the ident port is 03:49:00 -!- lament has joined. 03:49:33 -!- augur has joined. 03:49:47 elliott: Yeah, but then e.g. glogbot couldn't have "glogbot" as its ident ... it'd be nice to have an identd that any process could say "dear identd: Please lie for me in this way" :P 03:49:58 libc\x2Eso: Yes, but it'd be better than what you have :P 03:50:04 True. 03:50:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:50:17 libc\x2Eso: There's one identd that just responds with the user that initiated the TCP connection in question. 03:50:25 I have a domain name too but the reverse DNS doesn't work so instead it displays the service provider, which, I suppose, can sometimes be useful in case the country I live is important for some case (which usually isn't, though). 03:50:26 http://skarnet.org/software/minidentd/index.html 03:50:33 It's one of those djb-freak /package dealies though, so YMMV :) 03:50:43 (Not that it'd be hard to move out.) 03:50:55 (And, well, I think you do need ucspi-tcp. Maybe.) 03:51:09 No wait, there's also the http://smarden.org/ipsvd/ clone :-P 03:52:17 I am deciding to use LodePNG for my program. Have any of you ever used LodePNG, or libpng or some other libraries for loading/saving pictures, in your program? Which ones? 03:53:30 It uses floating point only for deciding Huffman encoding, so there is nothing that would cause different pictures input/output on different computers. 03:54:26 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:00:37 wtf 04:00:53 what 04:01:00 I installed nullidentd, it got the auth response, but it sent "foobar" instead of "Gregor" as I specified as an argument >_< 04:01:11 (foobar being the brilliant default) 04:01:36 libc\x2Eso: You don't need a piece of software for a two-line shell script X_X 04:02:13 I didn't know how to do an inetd line :P 04:03:18 # 04:03:20 --/etc/inetd.conf 04:05:27 elliott: some jackass pulled the alarm 04:05:49 -!- libc\x2Eso has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 04:06:02 anyways: are you personally interested in the group, if yes, do you think it would be a good idea to get this going? 04:06:23 I'm not really personally interested, but I'm not opposed :P 04:06:25 -!- libc\x2Eso has joined. 04:06:30 libc\x2Eso: didn't work 04:06:32 -!- libc\x2Eso has changed nick to Guest15127. 04:06:34 * libc\x2Eso (~Gregor@codu.org) has joined #esoteric 04:06:41 wtf 04:06:43 Doublewtf 04:06:59 elliott: who would be 'in charge'? those with ops? 04:06:59 Oh, did I actually register libc\x2Eso? X-D 04:07:11 Guest15127: just trolling, it worked 04:07:13 Guest15127: hehe 04:07:16 variable: Nobody? 04:07:21 :P 04:07:21 elliott: ha 04:07:35 variable: I guess fizzie and oerjan. lament is absentee. 04:07:38 kk 04:07:43 * variable will talk to them 04:07:49 define them 04:07:57 fizzie: and lament ? 04:08:01 oerjan is probably too lazy to get anything out of ;D 04:08:19 hehe 04:08:23 DON'T TELL LAMENT HE'LL BAN EVERYONE 04:08:34 -!- Guest15127 has changed nick to libc\x2Eso. 04:10:10 elliott: hrm? 04:10:11 "Coyote finally caught me" // well bip, that is one unique default quit message :P 04:10:27 who had that message? 04:10:40 ... me :P 04:10:46 All default quit messages should be as embarrassing as possible 04:10:55 * Gregor has quit (WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOORESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS) 04:11:03 libc\x2Eso: mine are "/dev/io failed" "I found 1 in /dev/zero" and "overflow in /dev/null" for quit, part, away 04:11:24 * Gregor has quit (USER HAS BEEN DISCONNECTED FOR BEING A TERRIBLE PERSON) 04:11:50 I just type the quit message every time instead of having it in a macro. 04:12:05 Why am I not surprised. 04:12:58 -!- augur has joined. 04:15:01 Because I like to make it not always the same message. 04:15:43 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later). 04:20:33 -!- jcp has joined. 04:23:42 If you have a array with values 0 to 255 and you need to convert values in that array according to a calculation, is it more efficient to do the calculation every time or to store the results in a lookup table? 04:24:04 precalculated lookup table 04:24:19 Yes, it is what I thought, good, OK. 04:36:01 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:37:47 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:40:08 wow, wil wheaton looks a bit moldy indeed 04:47:04 -!- aloril has joined. 05:02:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:10:53 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 05:11:04 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:12:19 I am working on webifying and simplifying LodePNG. LodePNG has even been converted to D, and then maybe they can also put the port to CWEB listed there too. 05:18:11 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:24:57 -!- augur has joined. 05:31:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 05:31:38 wow, wil wheaton looks a bit moldy indeed 05:31:48 not as much as that seducer of unwilling cats 05:36:19 I looked at his page, he didn't have many mold 05:37:17 "The supervisor for CTSS, the early 1960s predecessor system to Multics, had been written almost entirely in the 7094 assembly program, FAP." 05:37:24 oh i can see this document is going to be a lot of fun 05:42:31 hmm, this document makes me want to go back to the late 60s 05:43:03 fap fap fap fap fap 05:43:49 lament: YOU GOT THE JOKE 05:44:08 Sgeo: afaict mold is over now 05:44:14 it's not a joke elliott 05:44:26 elliott, but I looked before it ended 05:44:31 oh dear 05:44:31 He had like 2 05:44:47 * elliott backs slowly away from lament into a pile of FAP 05:46:25 "An idiotic structure was one that contained an array that began at a different place in the machine word for every element: he actually found that the Known Segment Table had a 37-bit array declared in it, requiring the compiler to generate many instructions to advance from one element to another." 05:46:27 :D 05:56:49 the late 60s were a good time for fapping indeed 05:59:28 "GHC migratiön tö Git cömplété" indeed 05:59:36 apparently dons didn't escape :D 06:00:41 Sgeo: he has about 500 mold trophies, though 06:00:48 (I_RAPE_CATS) 06:01:02 the late 60s were a good time for fapping indeed 06:01:06 so presumably the effect just wore off somehow 06:01:06 you'd know. wait do you know? 06:01:12 hmm, you're actually old enough :( 06:01:13 It was possible to escape, apparently 06:01:15 and yes, mold spores wear off 06:01:29 There was a thread in /r/basement for escaping 06:01:40 elliott: not really old enough, i'd be in the womb 06:02:07 oerjan: well get out of there already! 06:02:19 i did, just after the late 60s 06:02:31 TOO SLOW 06:02:51 olsner: so you only got born in like 1970? :/ 06:02:53 that's quite lame 06:02:55 you're probably ba 06:02:55 d 06:02:56 ... 06:02:57 oerjan: 06:03:01 olsner got born in like 2002 06:03:09 because you know, fuck him 06:04:00 http://i.imgur.com/aDJMG.jpg ;; STAY CLASSY, SUN 06:04:11 i think the progression from houses to cats is a very serious one. 06:04:19 i like how they included a picture of hitler for comparison. 06:04:25 also, i swear that house is wearing a beret 06:06:57 i bet oerjan wears a beret 06:08:10 hear his silence? 06:08:15 that's the silence of a beret-wearer. 06:09:55 * oerjan pats olsner on the head 06:10:04 oerjan: he's stupid isn't he :D 06:10:28 http://www.reddit.com/r/basement/comments/ggq6i/if_som3on3_miss3s_mold_and_r3ads_our_history/ all this is doing is reminding me i still need to finish binging homestuck... 06:11:04 i cannot recall wearing a beret, ever. but then there is a lot i cannot recall. 06:11:17 how sad 06:12:12 adloft houstler 06:12:46 when will you stop coming here oerjan 06:12:50 when you're 65? 06:13:53 i don't plan that far ahead. 06:14:06 WILL YOU STILL BE HERE WHEN YOU'RE 82 06:14:15 MAYBE 06:14:30 that's 2052! 06:14:33 WILL IRC EVEN EXIST THEN 06:14:57 hey i just made oerjan feel good about his age :DDDDD 06:15:05 well let's at least hope the replacement is not a step backward 06:15:27 hm is there a pun in there 06:15:34 not that i know of 06:15:52 oerjan: well maybe it'll be post-singularity. 06:16:04 and we'll just sort of hook up our minds to each other in a big circle. like /r/circlejerk, but /r/circle...MIND 06:16:07 are you FEELING my VIBE 06:16:28 yes. and we have to ban certain people lest it become an _actual_ circlejerk 06:16:44 yeah, fucking yorick 06:16:51 can't control him 06:18:19 and for his 512th birthday, we'll buy oerjan a digital scan of a vintage 2010 computer running the lost compiler of GHC 06:18:45 my mind is now doing a few leaps to notice that "kline" is norwegian for making out 06:18:52 can you believe you actually had to type out every single letter you wanted to say to the computer then like a baby, haha 06:19:26 oerjan: i'm trying to think of a suitably joking reply 06:20:52 i suppose that might be hard 06:21:23 eine kline nachtmusik 06:21:50 the music of the night indeed 06:22:51 "How many non-moldy Redditors think we should get trophies for our profiles that say "I Survived the Plague"?" 06:22:53 why is this #2 06:22:56 *sigh* 06:23:41 hey oerjan, if you don't upvote my comment in http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ggu2r/ghc_migrati%C3%B6n_t%C3%B6_git_c%C3%B6mpl%C3%A9t%C3%A9/, the smilies will win 06:23:45 oh wait you have no account 06:23:47 WELL GET ONE 06:23:47 i haven't seen anyone who was _killed_ by the plague yet... 06:24:06 oerjan: indeed not. but let's just say that I_RAPE_CATS will never rape again. 06:24:13 perhaps. 06:24:35 what a sad thing, to be bereft of your life mission 06:28:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:31:58 and apparently emacs's april fools joke was that it wasn't a joke? 06:32:32 or is it... 06:33:11 it wasn't 06:33:15 but lexical scoping is still off for files by default 06:33:19 so it's not _really_ lexically scoped yet 06:33:35 YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND THE SUBTLETIES, VIM USER 06:34:40 okay 06:34:59 :D 06:35:28 (that's f*u* okay) 06:40:21 oerjan: i was wondering why it sounded so uncharacteristic 06:40:30 clearly it's message memory, like homeopathy 06:41:15 the fact i usually use O KAY might _possibly_ have something to do with it... 06:42:46 yeah, O KAY is getting kinda obnoxious at this point :D 06:43:57 that's because it's _meant_ to be, silly 06:46:06 oerjan: yes but no really stop it, child. 06:46:22 * elliott aimed that right at oerjan's offence lobe 06:47:34 :< 06:48:37 my offence lobe exploded from overloading years ago 06:48:55 did someone say your FACE looked like a puddle? 06:49:01 no wait, that was my conscience lobe 06:49:14 conscientious objectificator 06:49:29 * oerjan captures elliott and applies tickle torture 06:49:41 that's illegal 06:49:47 prev 06:49:49 ... 06:49:52 well typing is going 06:49:59 next 06:50:08 you're a nxet too 07:14:54 hey oerjan 07:14:56 sfiosdhjoihiogjiogskrfglf 07:15:39 and a good day to you, sir 07:15:46 :)))))) 07:15:48 you're going to sleep soon 07:15:49 i can tell 07:16:22 you might want to check your data 07:16:33 oh, did you just get up? 07:16:35 i mean like 07:16:37 in the last N hours 07:16:44 neither 07:16:44 * elliott makes scribbles on teletyped data 07:16:49 *typewritered 07:16:51 oerjan: midday? 07:16:57 * elliott scrumples up paper, throws in bin 07:19:13 late afternoon, perhaps 07:19:38 oerjan: YOUR MEASUREMENTS ARE HAYWIRE 07:19:47 AS EXPECTED 07:26:28 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:40:29 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:50:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:39 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:56:26 -!- sftp has joined. 08:08:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:14:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:23:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:35:46 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:37:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:43:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:52:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:19:09 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:21:00 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>). 10:21:06 -!- Lymia has joined. 10:37:42 -!- cheater99 has joined. 10:38:22 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:11:27 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:34:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:56:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:59:04 OK, webcomics in French are the most ridiculous thing. 12:04:43 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 12:07:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:24:24 Webomics are tools of Satan! 12:24:53 Especially 1/0! The author compares himself to God! 12:28:52 Is that where you found God? 12:29:12 lol 12:29:30 (Why *were* you looking for him in the first place?) 12:30:30 I think he has Alzheimers'. Could injure himself, so much power but not a functioning mind. Probably why he stopped doing miracles. 12:30:40 So I need to find him before he hurts himself and the world 12:30:52 Send him to an old god's home. 12:34:10 Dear Chrome: It should not take forever to load a file that's on my hard drive 12:34:42 Also are you still trying to learn boring maths? 12:36:01 On hold for the moment 12:55:00 -!- iconmaster has joined. 13:09:58 -!- Vorpal has joined. 13:10:07 ...Vorpal was offline? 13:10:12 He's *never* offline. 13:10:20 ...Vorpal was offline? <-- it's called power outage :P 13:10:27 He's like some horrifying vision, always at the edge of your perception. 13:10:35 come on 13:11:54 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:24:52 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:25:09 -!- Siebenzack has joined. 13:26:02 -!- Guest27586 has joined. 13:26:06 hi^^ 13:26:12 hi 13:28:05 -!- Guest27586 has changed nick to Thunfish. 13:31:29 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:31:32 Welcome to the matrix of solidity. 13:32:22 Thank you^^ 13:33:08 -!- sftp has joined. 13:33:52 -!- augur has joined. 13:36:34 ...ELISP is now lexically scoped. 13:37:51 Why does the future have all the non-awesome thing? 13:37:58 *things 13:40:38 Phantom_Hoover: because assholes like you couldnt resist using a time machine to go to the future and take all the cool stuff 13:40:44 you assholes you 13:41:27 augur, we also stole all the money? 13:41:31 s/?/./ 13:41:41 I'm having a hard time with punctuation right now. 13:42:14 also yes 13:43:01 (That's the REAL reason for the financial crash.) 14:12:54 anyone here who wants to try out my implementation of a portable brainfuck compiler in C? 14:58:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:08:16 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:08:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:17:40 -!- Thunfish has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:19:52 -!- Thunfish has joined. 15:20:06 Thunfish, sure, but there's not really much room for innovation there. 15:21:50 I know, but it's using other technics that I haven't seen in other compilers/interpreters, yet. 15:22:00 Well, where can we get it? 15:22:47 -!- lament has joined. 15:23:03 http://thundersf.bplaced.net/bfjit/bfjit.zip 15:23:33 I lately added an entry to brainfuck discussion page too. 15:24:38 I tried my best to write an english ReadMe. 15:28:28 Is it just me or does your parser do some optimisation as well? 15:29:49 (You might want to look at Esotope, BtW; it's the current best optimising BF compiler.) 15:30:26 it does. 15:30:58 thanks for the advice. 15:36:13 -!- Siebenzack has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 15:36:15 There are also at least a couple LLVM-driven brainfucks that do a mostly trivial translation themselves, but of course inherit all the LLVM optimization machinery. (Of course from an iplementation viewpoint that's pretty boring.) 15:37:44 (In other news, a brief hello from Turku, the okocity.) 15:45:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:46:04 Wow! Esotope generates very well optimized source code. The only disadvantage, I can find is that it needs an external C compiler. My program was meant to be fast and to be independent of external programs, but I haven't heard about Esotope, yet. 15:48:46 The power of Esotope is in its macroöptimisations, so you could probably just work them into a self-contained compiler. 15:52:27 ok, thank you. I will try to implement some more optimisation mechanisms into my compiler. 15:57:59 -!- Thunfish has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 16:25:46 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:34:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 16:44:29 I love it when WP defines conventions, then lists all possible ways to define something. 16:45:11 Especially when there are two ways to do something and both are widespread. 16:53:48 hm there is ipv6.google.com and encrypted.google.com, but there seem to be no encrypted ipv6 version, heh 16:54:24 also why does ipv6.google.com say "go to google denmark"... ? 16:54:34 err Danmark* 16:56:48 Probably doesn't have as good of GeoIP for IPv6 as for IPv4. 16:57:01 right 16:57:16 anyone know how to switch the search box in firefox over to use https for google 16:57:17 libc\x2Eso, why the name, BtW? 16:57:18 Vorpal: Or it just knows that in your heart of hearts you desperately want to be Danish. 16:57:25 libc\x2Eso, hah 16:57:31 Phantom_Hoover: I shall not discuss it in this channel :P 16:57:48 Just the \x2Eso bit? 16:57:51 I'm looking for where to change it... haven't found it yet 16:57:56 it isn't about:config at least 16:57:57 Since that seems a blatant reference to this channel. 16:58:06 Phantom_Hoover: \x2E = . 16:58:11 Oh, right. 16:59:37 Since . is an invalid character for nicks on Freenode :P 17:00:48 libc\x2Eso, and on IRC in general afaik? 17:01:00 Idonno what the RFC has to say about it *shrugs* 17:01:26 The protocol really has no reason to ban any characters aside from ": \r\n" 17:01:32 libc\x2Eso, also @ 17:01:34 Oh, and "!@" 17:01:37 yeah 17:04:06 or rather the folder 17:04:09 google isn't there however 17:04:13 wikipedia search is 17:04:15 hrrm 17:04:35 ... guh? 17:04:37 aha, it is in /usr/lib, not in my profile 17:04:39 wait 17:04:41 wrong channel 17:04:51 I was wondering wtf you were blathering about :P 17:04:56 libc\x2Eso, I was talking about the google issue in another channel. 17:04:57 as well 17:06:15 libc\x2Eso, so wait, if you're not discussing libc.so here, I assume you're attempting to fundraise elsewhere on Freenode? 17:06:30 Not really, just being overexcited :P 17:06:38 yay it works 17:06:46 (Well, a little bit, but with no success :P ) 17:06:56 I thought you had no chance of getting it? 17:08:26 So did I. 17:08:39 ...but? 17:08:47 But the guy I was sure would get it bowed out, so now it's just me, a few who are clearly out already, and a bunch who haven't bid (and so are wildcards) 17:09:06 I rate my odds as quite low simply because I'm very near to my limit, but as it stands I'm in the lead. 17:09:22 And oh yeah, I'm not talking about that in here X-P 17:09:30 ERASE LAST SIX LINES 17:12:31 Anyone want to fire nukes at the tunes.org server? 17:12:42 HALLO I AM GLOGBOT 17:13:08 glogbot's in someone in here's control, isn't it? No need to fire nukes there 17:13:35 My point is why even bother with tunes.org 17:14:04 Because it's the only log that's outside of our control? 17:14:38 So? 17:17:00 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:19:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:42:59 Sgeo, what've you got against tunes? 17:43:18 ERASE LAST SIX LINES 17:43:25 (And yes, I actually do think that being outside our control is A Good Thing, given Herobrine.) 17:43:45 What's bad about Herobrine? 17:43:59 * iconmaster suuuuuucks at NetHack. 17:44:01 Note lack of presence in channel. 17:44:16 Note nonexistence of logs on internet. 17:44:19 Phantom_Hoover: elliott and I are collaborating on the Future of Logbots. 17:48:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:55:35 Note nonexistence of logs on internet. <-- personally I think this can be attributed to elliott rather than being run by someone in the channel /in general/. 17:56:45 Vorpal, personally I think you should shut up. 17:57:13 Phantom_Hoover, come on, egobot is mostly stable. Apart from server sluggishness and hickups. So is fungot 17:57:14 Vorpal: i don't know what to do 17:57:28 they don't stop running after a few weeks 17:57:43 fungot is run by fizzie who is, like, incapable of anger. 17:57:44 Phantom_Hoover: common lisp, scheme, oz, erlang, &c.) to infer types 17:57:47 they sometimes fails yes. But they are always restarted. 17:57:53 Phantom_Hoover, and Gregor's bots? 17:58:19 PERHAPS THE DOWNTIME IS NOT SO RANDOM AS WE HAVE BEEN LED TO THINK 17:58:44 Phantom_Hoover, uh, I doubt that. 17:58:50 My bots have much improved since I made the odd discovery that if you don't make any output but pongs for a prolonged period, Freenode will disconnect you. 17:59:07 ... 17:59:21 Did you investigate this? 17:59:38 Define "investigate" 17:59:41 I fixed it. 18:02:38 libc\x2Eso, freenode does what? 18:02:39 Did you ask someone why the hell that happens? 18:03:04 -!- azaq23 has joined. 18:08:41 No, I couldn't be arsed :P 18:15:40 -!- elliott has joined. 18:19:01 13:36:34: ...ELISP is now lexically scoped. 18:19:05 Phantom_Hoover: not by default alas 18:19:17 Dammit. 18:19:24 you set it at file scope 18:28:25 elliott, fizzie: does mcmap work with 1.4? 18:33:20 Is there a way to make some code execute when a certain file's contents have been changed? 18:33:32 Which OS 18:33:37 Windows 18:33:54 Maybe. 18:34:01 Try Linux, then you can use inotify/FAM :P 18:35:25 I renember hearing there was a way to do this in Powershell, but i forgot what it said... 18:35:58 iconmaster: You can always just do a 18:36:16 for(;;) {sleep(1); if(readfile() != oldfilecontents) dosomething();} 18:36:17 loop. 18:36:24 But that'll wake up your CPU all the time. 18:36:27 And have a 1s delay. 18:36:49 That will be good enough... What would that script do if the file was suddenly deleted? 18:37:05 Uh. readfile would fail. It's up to you to implement the actual guts :P 18:37:15 I also forgot to save the result of readfile to oldfilecontents there. 18:38:54 SO basically for(;;) {sleep(1); $oldfile = (gc file); if((gc file) -ne $oldfile) {stuff} } 18:39:11 -!- catseye has joined. 18:39:19 Er. 18:39:26 That will almost never execute stuff. 18:39:57 is there a userscript of some sort that makes it impossible for scripts that automatically highlight blocks of text on a webpage to function, or do I have to write it myself? 18:39:59 It works... but I need to fill in now. 18:56:39 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:56:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:01:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:01:35 -!- copumpki_ has joined. 19:02:28 -!- copumpki_ has changed nick to copumpkin. 19:02:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 19:02:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:06:19 hi ais523 19:07:16 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 19:08:44 hi elliott 19:09:37 Hey ais523, /msg #esoteric-minecraft with something. 19:10:05 elliott: done so 19:10:18 ais523: The novelty will never get old! 19:10:30 ais523, why don't you like minecraft 19:10:49 and does that mean you are neutral towards it, or dislike it? 19:10:51 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:11:01 Vorpal: vague dislike, I'd say 19:11:12 are you not HUMAN?? 19:11:32 it's trying to glue together two things that might be interesting on their own, to make the result less interesting 19:11:36 minecrakrt jsux because ls black black ops is teh bestset st game evar 19:11:39 ais523, what two things? 19:11:43 aww, too few typos 19:11:44 Vorpal, it's because the player is MALE 19:11:51 YES 19:11:56 Phantom_Hoover, you can easily switch the skin 19:12:00 a sort of adventure game, and a sandboxy programming game 19:12:09 hm 19:12:10 programming game? 19:12:11 I mean, you wouldn't try to combine Tomb Raider and Rubicon 19:12:23 MC doesn't involve any programming unless you mean redstone 19:12:26 (although if you did, you might end up with something quite popular) 19:12:34 elliott: well, architecture 19:12:36 ais523, that sounds... wow 19:12:40 which may or may not be programmatically interesting 19:12:50 sort-of like Lego 19:12:50 elliott, 8 bit computer. Come on 19:13:18 Vorpal: that's electrical engineering 19:13:33 also, Minecraft's one of those things that the majority of communities have their own server/area for playing, much like Mafia 19:13:46 FSVO majority 19:13:50 also, Tomb Raider + Rubicon is a game I would play 19:14:17 elliott, hm. Redstone Engineering 19:14:24 is minecraft multiplayer? 19:14:26 redstone doesn't really work at all like transistors 19:14:31 lament, both 19:14:57 also, Minecraft's one of those things that the majority of communities have their own server/area for playing, much like Mafia <-- yes. There is no official One True Server. 19:14:59 Vorpal: no, it's always multiplayer 19:15:01 SHEEP ARE PEOPLE 19:15:02 ais523, is that an issue? 19:15:09 elliott, riiigth 19:15:20 Vorpal: it's not an issue, but I did find it interesting 19:26:57 -!- copumpki_ has joined. 19:27:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:28:42 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:37:59 -!- copumpki_ has changed nick to copumpkin. 19:38:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 19:38:00 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:43:07 -!- cheater00 has joined. 19:45:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:29:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:35:12 -!- TLUL has joined. 21:02:47 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:09:23 -!- sftp has joined. 21:15:40 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:16:56 LEXICAL 21:25:20 LEXI-CAL 21:25:47 Lexi's in Hotel California 21:26:03 Sgeo, Butcherer of Jokes 21:26:07 Sexical. 21:32:45 -!- ch2 has joined. 21:32:45 S Q L 21:32:45 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:32:50 -!- ch2 has joined. 21:32:50 S Q L 21:33:18 ch2: hmm, are you a spambot? 21:33:24 or just have an unusually small lexicon? 21:33:51 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:56 I think you hurt its feelings. 21:34:49 ais523: say sorry. 21:35:01 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 21:35:08 elliott: haha 21:35:18 ais523: why do you find this funny! 21:35:58 -!- ch2 has joined. 21:35:58 ais523: i hate you :( 21:36:04 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 21:37:13 ais523: I think you've really hurt its feelings. 21:37:15 ch2: GO DIE IN A FIRE 21:37:34 ch2: hello! 21:37:37 ch2: do you want to be friends 21:37:52 ch2: elliott's a douchebag, don't listen to him 21:38:22 heh, I just compared the IPs 21:38:33 I had an idea that ch2 = elliott, and it's using the same IP that elliott was yesterday 21:38:34 what IPs? 21:38:44 i have a dynamic ip 21:38:51 indeed, but it's still quite a coincidence 21:38:57 yes. very. clearly it is fate 21:38:59 ch2: hi 21:38:59 it's elliot from the past! 21:39:14 TWOOOOOOOOOOOO 21:39:16 FUCKINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG 21:39:18 TSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 21:39:49 ok, sorry 21:39:53 :P 21:40:02 lame, there's no #multics 21:40:16 The two t's in elliott's name are having wild, hot, passionate sex even as we speak. 21:40:27 Gross. 21:40:32 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliot________t. 21:40:37 And no funny business! 21:41:54 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:04 -!- ch2 has joined. 21:42:04 ais523: i hate you :( 21:42:23 elliot________t: hmm, is ch2 a hatredbot? 21:42:33 at least, it was an S Q L bot first, but is a hatredbot now? 21:43:00 ais523: no, you just upset it 21:44:11 -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 110K 2011-04-02 22:42 logs.sqlite3 21:44:12 ragh 21:44:15 my hands keep slipping 21:44:15 :( 21:44:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:46:06 ah, it's a logbot that isn't Herobrine? 21:46:26 ch2: how do you respond to this accusation that you're not Herobrine? 21:47:33 *isn't called Herobrine 21:47:46 * elliot________t whoises ch2 to find out its name 21:48:30 elliot________t: so did I, I'm not convinced it's called Herobrine based on its realname data 21:48:49 ship of theseus! 21:49:41 libc\x2Eso: ch2 is at war with glogbot innit 21:50:17 glogbot is Switzerland. 21:50:31 Don't you mean Swizterland. 21:50:39 I thought .ch meant Switzerland 21:50:56 Well ch2 is Switzerland too! 21:51:01 GET 21:51:01 IT 21:51:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:04:40 -!- elliot________t has changed nick to elliott. 22:04:51 ais523: Anyway, ch2 and glogbot are actually in a completely illict relationship* 22:04:54 *FSVO illicit 22:04:57 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:05:00 ISN'T THAT RIGHT GREGOR 22:05:03 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:05:09 *GASP* 22:05:44 I swear to god, pipe() is the most annoying possible interface. 22:06:02 No it isn't. 22:06:29 elliott: the way it takes an array as arg, /and/ returns the arguments the other way round from what you'd expect, in the array? 22:06:38 admittedly, it's quite a clever interface for what it's trying to do 22:06:47 ais523: Well, yes, but also the fact that I just want to spawn a process and hook into its input and output. 22:07:03 And having to call pipe twice, keep track of the indices, and hook it all up with dup, is super annoying. 22:07:07 Also I'm not sure how POSIX-portable that is. 22:07:15 dup() is, it seems. 22:07:17 And dup2(). 22:07:25 pipe() too, but not pipe2(). 22:07:33 ("pipe too but not pipe too" X-D) 22:08:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:11:58 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:12:04 -!- augur has joined. 22:19:10 I wonder if I could use a hash tree as a storage method. 22:20:21 -!- Lymia has joined. 22:20:22 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 22:20:22 -!- Lymia has joined. 22:21:01 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:20 Storage of what? 22:25:55 zzo38: Objects. 22:41:52 -!- calamari has joined. 22:41:58 hi 22:42:06 Hi 22:42:13 * Sgeo unfairly blames calamari for PSOX 22:44:41 so I came across an interesting mental challenge (well, interesting to me anyways). in a normal round-robin tournament, players are matched in pairs. but let's say the game has 3 sides (for example, chinese checkers, you could play a triangle of 3 of the 6 tips). if every player must play against each other player exactly once, what's the algorithm to optimize for the least number of matches? 22:45:55 there are definitely substandard combos.. for example if I have 6 players and I do 1-2-3 then 4-5-6, then I must have 9 additional matches with just 2 players 22:46:34 that depends on your goal 22:46:45 you could see the goal of a round robin tournament to be to test every permutation of players 22:46:50 in which case your premise is flawed 22:47:02 So some kind of general handshake problem> 22:47:13 i stated every player must play each other player exactly once 22:47:40 i didn't mean you specifically so much as you generally; i wouldn't expect to see a round robin tournament such as you've laid out 22:47:41 :P 22:48:47 oh, I see what you're saying 22:50:28 but yeah as I stated was correct 22:50:48 best I could find for 6 players was 7 matches, 3 with an empty seat 22:51:11 * calamari looks up the handshaking problem 22:51:52 Except not as easy to manipulate. 22:52:54 is there any number of players, other than 3, for which it's doable with no matches with empty seats? 22:53:09 http://www.devenezia.com/round-robin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224605375 22:53:22 4 rounds, no empty seats 22:54:13 that's impressive 22:54:19 I suppose multiples of 9, it's easy 22:54:34 it works like Sudoku 22:54:43 a bit, at least 22:54:57 appears to be some software called hsmaster which can generate round robins for 3 player games(?) 22:58:15 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:02:02 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to strawman. 23:05:25 -!- wareya_ has joined. 23:05:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:05:45 myndzi: link? 23:06:08 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:06:15 * Phantom_Hoover → food 23:06:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:09:45 you can google it as easily as i? 23:09:56 i only came across a video of someone showing how to use it, didn't bother to actually look up the app 23:10:02 it looked old and dated and maybe not like it would run on xp 23:10:02 :P 23:10:13 i also may have misunderstood 23:11:10 ah I didn't search videos 23:11:41 (In other news, a brief hello from Turku, the okocity.) 23:13:27 "The unusual dialect in this city is due to rampant sound change, which has worn all vowels and diphthongs down to o, and all consonants and consonant combinations down to k. how the people here manage to understand each other is a mystery to linguists. especially in writing." 23:13:55 *H *E 23:14:25 oerjan: if only you'd got it right first time, it would have been great 23:14:26 also, o 23:14:35 ok 23:15:58 oko 23:16:11 koko (new official name of Turku) 23:21:43 ERASE LAST SIX LINES 23:21:45 O KAY 23:29:01 -!- cheater- has joined. 23:31:39 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:33:46 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:34:30 -!- elliott has joined. 23:34:32 WHAT WAS ERASED 23:34:43 I CANNOT RECALL 23:41:01 ("pipe too but not pipe too" X-D) 23:41:05 that's the question 23:42:47 Is it nobler to socket blah blah blah bad pun blah blah 23:43:28 well, _you_ can socket. 23:44:10 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 23:45:28 -!- pumpkin has joined. 23:45:36 -!- strawman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:49:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:50:48 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:51:50 oerjan: I'll socket your plug any day, oerjan baby ;-* 23:52:13 -!- strawman has joined. 23:52:17 -!- strawman has changed nick to copumpkin. 23:52:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 23:52:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:56:44 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to strawman. 2011-04-03: 00:11:21 What I think that 4-letter TLDs should be used for, is for special use, such as making .example into .xmpl and having the same purpose as .example has. 00:17:13 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 00:18:18 ???????????????????????????????????? 00:18:43 @? 00:18:57 olsner: yes! @! 00:19:08 haha, as if 00:19:32 olsner: what 00:20:09 I'm saying you will never build @ or get someone to do it for you :) 00:21:00 Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? 00:21:51 olsner: i can't parse the precedence of that sentence 00:21:52 parenify plz 00:21:57 What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent? 00:22:00 Would that work? 00:22:22 `addquote Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent? 00:22:24 Slereah: No, baseball is a different game. 00:22:25 345) Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent? 00:23:37 It is someone said before that draws are common and I have some ideas that can make it less common without eliminating draws or changing much else, but someone with experience should answer me please. 00:24:12 What is this? http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:IRC&curid=2413&diff=21685&oldid=10846 00:24:27 Also this? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:M-code 00:24:43 A tankre. 00:26:25 zzo38: bot spam, almost certainly 00:26:33 Slereah: Have you ever told anyone baseball rules in a British accent? 00:27:05 zzo38: I have 00:27:10 but that's because I'm British 00:27:14 so it's my natural accent 00:27:22 also, I know most of the rules of cricket 00:27:43 anyway, the reason draws are common are due to people running out of time for a match, due to people not getting out quickly enough and not declaring 00:27:51 (either by mistake, or because it would make them lose) 00:28:01 and there are alternative rules that avoid draws already for one-day matches 00:28:04 but they aren't used in full matches 00:28:21 oerjan: what kind of bot spams with hello world? 00:28:29 ais523: Yes I know that. However, I have some ideas to make draws a bit less common while still possible, such as making some changes to the world during the last half hour of play. 00:28:35 s/world/rules/ 00:28:37 elliott: what was the ambiguouous part? 00:28:55 I meant that you'll never (build @) or (get someone to do it(= build @) for you) 00:29:06 olsner: (never {build @ or get someone to do it for you}) vs. (or {never build @} {get someone to do it for you}) 00:29:09 elliott: i don't know but "catch sufficiently hello world" gives google hits 00:29:17 zzo38: that might be unfair, as as one side's bowling and one side's batting then, the rules change would affect the two sides differently 00:29:31 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Qdeql +Sceql +SMETANA) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 00:30:46 try { ... } catch (ex) { if (ex.sufficientlyHelloWorld()) { console.log("Hello, world!"); } } 00:33:49 ais523: Yes I can see that, but the idea I have was that there would be ways to make it end faster but that this might benefit both sides, and that it would then become a bit more difficult to continue until time up. Such as, during the last half hour of play (on the last day), any maiden automatically takes a wicket and the ball into designated areas earns double runs. Perhaps also these rules can be adjusted based on time wasting calculations 00:34:13 double runs is a much more minor bonus than maidens taking wickets automatically 00:34:22 maidens are much more common than wickets 00:34:45 perhaps a straight *3 on runs might balance it, but it still probably wouldn't be completely balanced 00:36:28 cricket is like this game, if you didn't know it was old, you'd think it was a parody of something else 00:36:38 Yes that might fix it a bit. 00:37:19 so well-made it is useless to try and parody it further. although i'm sure people must have tried. 00:37:27 Vorpal: how much ram does an ubuntu-for-genera vm require? 00:37:43 oerjan: Is that what it looks like to you? Maybe it might. How much of the rules do you know, oerjan? 00:38:11 right now i'm going just by your long line above. 00:39:44 ais523: btw, is blognomic any fun? 00:39:48 oerjan: you know how there are plenty of stereotypes about English gentlemen, who spend all day sipping tea and taking things slowly in immaculate and beautiful gardens? 00:39:51 nowadays 00:40:03 cricket's like what you get if you try to apply all those to baseball simultaneously 00:40:11 elliott: it varies a lot; this dynasty may be a good one, but it's too early to tell 00:40:17 it's been boring for months, but I rejoined recently 00:40:20 ais523: nice summary 00:41:10 five-day cricket is probably the slowest-paced sport in existence 00:41:26 ais523: Uh, Brockian Ultra-Cricket? 00:41:38 elliott: that's probably pretty fast-paced 00:41:46 *Ultra Cricket 00:41:49 no wait 00:41:51 *Ultra-Cricket 00:42:00 ais523: I dunno, beating people might be really slow in the seventh dimension 00:43:08 Ul-Tra Cricket. named by its mad scientist inventor Siad Ul-Tra. 00:43:47 oerjan: it's not an understatement, anyway, to say that cricket games are intended to take five days, but often are drawn due to not being nearly finished by then 00:44:01 ...right. 00:44:20 i propose a new form of cricket 00:44:23 Zero-limit Cricket 00:44:27 teh game lasts until someone wins. no exceptions 00:44:43 elliott: it was originally unlimited; the five-day limit was added due to people getting bored after a few weeks 00:44:47 :D 00:45:09 how can anyone get bored of cricket 00:45:22 well, short of watching it i guess 00:45:22 elliott: see? you cannot actually parody cricket. 00:45:28 oerjan: :D 00:45:47 we british. so durpy. 00:45:54 (that's the motto of britain) 00:46:04 Long-form cricket is certainly slow, although it allows many possibilities to be played. It would certainly be very boring to people who prefer the short-forms or who do not understand cricket very well. 00:46:10 ("british nos, ita durpy") 00:46:16 lament: for bonus points, many channels just show "extended highlights" of cricket, which is all the bits that they thought were interesting 00:46:22 and they typically last around twenty minutes 00:46:29 as a summary of the whole five-day matches 00:46:49 :D 00:47:15 elliott: hey, why are /you/ laughing? aren't you British? 00:47:21 elliott: If the game lasts until someone wins, does that mean that there is no draws, and in case of tie you do the fifth and sixth innings? 00:47:23 aren't you forced to play cricket in school? 00:47:36 zzo38: ties are statistically incredibly unlikely 00:47:47 elliott: hey, why are /you/ laughing? aren't you British? 00:47:49 after five days, and hundreds of runs, it would be quite a fluke for both sides to have exactly the same score 00:47:50 yes, it's quite shameful 00:47:53 aren't you forced to play cricket in school? 00:47:54 ABSOLUTELY 00:47:58 cricketulum 00:48:06 at least it's pretty easy, you don't do anything 95% of the time 00:48:10 zzo38: yes 00:48:11 and at least if you're me, mess up the other 5% 00:48:19 the number of innings can in fact exceed nine thousand 00:48:32 I was so bad at cricket that in the end they decided to make me be the scorekeeper rather than play on either team, at school 00:49:02 crickethulhu. the game where the players try to slow it down as much as possible, for obvious reasons. 00:49:06 ais523: I know ties are unlikely. 00:49:32 oerjan: bowlers have been fined for stalling, on occasion 00:49:39 real-life money, that is, not anything in-game 00:49:59 ais523: i am sure the penalties in crickethulhu would rather more severe. 00:50:02 *be 00:54:54 _occasionally_ some players on the winning team might survive, i guess. 00:55:25 oerjan: If you try to slow it down as much as possible, there won't be a winning team, it will end in a draw. 00:55:26 survive till the victory ceremony, anyhow 00:55:35 zzo38: exactly 00:55:37 The penalties would be prohibiting slow-motion VCRs. And that you have to bet your fingers and ears if you run out of money. 00:56:13 crickethulhu draws are in the sense of "hung, drawn and quartered". 01:03:47 -!- TLUL has joined. 01:06:58 Write down the rules. [1] If the batsman catches the ball (out handling the ball), you have to eat the ball. [2] If you hit a duck with anything, you lose instantly. [3] You do not stop due to the weather. If it is snow or lightning storm, you still have to continue playing in lightning storm. [4] No protective equipment is permitted. [5] Slow-motion VCRs are permitted until there is a stalling penalty, at which point they are prohibited for th 01:07:02 oerjan: but what about the slow-motion VCRs? 01:07:50 e rest of the match. [6] In case of draw, is hung, drawn and quartered. [7] In case of tie, the umpire is required to tie you up. [8] U mUST USING, propper, spellling/gram-er @all times!!!!!!!!!!! 01:08:00 -!- sftp_ has joined. 01:08:04 -!- TLUL has quit (Client Quit). 01:08:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:08:28 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:08:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:08:46 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:08:49 argh 01:09:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:09:09 * oerjan checks logs 01:09:15 [9] You have to use heavier balls at the victory ceremony. 01:09:16 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:09:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:10:04 zzo38: if that's supposed to be the crickethulhu rules then i don't think you have got the spirit of it at all 01:10:20 I think zzo38's just trying to make the game a little less boring 01:10:25 oerjan: Well, it is not finish yet. You have to write the rest, too. 01:10:29 pun cricket, or something 01:10:38 hint: cthulhu doesn't mess around which such chicken "penalties" 01:10:44 zzo38: but in the case of crickethulu, writing the rest wouldn't make sense 01:10:48 as even reading it would make you go insane 01:10:57 ais523: hm true 01:10:59 hmm, unless writing one of those things makes you become sane? 01:11:03 ais523: But some people in esolangs is already a bit insane in some ways, so you can write it. 01:11:07 there would be a nice sort of symmetry to that 01:11:14 ais523: i wouldn't bet on that... 01:11:20 oerjan: neither would I 01:11:29 (I do mean you. Not only me. Also you.) 01:13:26 yay, og2 is going fast 01:14:20 -!- strawman has changed nick to Pollione. 01:15:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:16:57 ais523: Do you know how to boot Ubuntu 7.10 or similar versions in expert install mode? 01:17:24 elliott: no 01:17:33 that's okay, i just figured it out X-D 01:17:52 "Coming soon: Better ads in Google Mail." 01:17:54 golly gosh! 01:22:39 -!- Pollione has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:23:04 @@@@@@http://sprunge.us/ZGMd@@@@@@@@ 01:23:24 yay obfuscated url 01:23:30 not /very/ obfuscated 01:23:34 FSVO obfuscate@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 01:24:02 NSFVO 01:24:39 not safe for vixen oligarchies 01:25:02 It's obfuscated enough to confuse XChat >_> 01:25:26 even rot13 would do taht 01:25:28 *that 01:25:40 -!- Pollione has joined. 01:25:47 Uhhh, but that's substantially less obfuscation than rot13. 01:26:12 @@@@@Hahahaha, you'll never unobfuscate this!@@@@@ 01:26:29 I think I did it! Is the answer: "Unununun, lbh'yy arire haboshfpngr guvf!"? 01:26:53 Haboshfpngr would be a nice name for an esolang 01:27:21 "fpng" has to be one of the heartiest sounds 01:27:29 the p kind of nuclear-bombs the phonetics 01:27:50 yeah, shfpngr is a consonant cluster to kill for 01:28:16 i like how it's actually pronounceable without any vowels sneaking in 01:28:21 and it has enough semivowels in that it's actually pronouncable 01:30:26 grr ubuntu 01:30:46 just because i'm using a US english system 01:30:49 doesn't mean my timezone is american 01:31:58 gah 01:32:06 it's impossible to have the two, it seems 01:32:39 meh, i'll fix the timezone post-installation 01:33:35 it feels so quaint to disable shadow passwords 01:34:45 Re: that obfuscation, btw, if it made you gave up, I saved you some wasted time :P 01:39:41 Is the \linepenalty parameter of TeX misnamed? 01:41:00 Yes. 01:41:26 it was meant to be named bzspoiajsd, but that name's apparently illegal in Norway 01:42:30 Then why did Knuth call it \linepenalty? It is not a penalty value. 01:43:23 ais523: that's totally not something ais would say 01:43:25 what did you do with him 01:43:36 -!- Pollione has changed nick to copumpkin. 01:43:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 01:43:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:43:42 elliott: I think I was trying to do an impression of you, but not a very good one 01:43:53 that was closer to a bad oerjan 01:43:58 except he'd have picked another country :D] 01:44:02 s/\]$// 01:44:07 elliott: perhaps 01:44:16 although Norway has rules on name legality, which is why I picked it 01:44:19 otoh the random text reminds me of... olsner? cpressey? 01:44:29 ais523: doesn't sweden too, c.f. albin 01:44:39 ah, perhaps that's what I was thinking of 01:44:47 they should rename that kid to "pronounced [ˈalbɪn]" 01:44:51 and the text wasn't random, I tried mashing my keyboard several times 01:44:53 like lynard skynyrtrd 01:44:58 until I got a sequence of letters I liked 01:45:01 haha 01:45:06 like rutian! 01:45:44 re that law: The law was enacted in 1982, primarily in order to prevent non-noble families from giving their children the names of noble families.. 01:45:47 s/\.\.$/./ 01:45:49 totally gross 01:46:20 wow, Lynyrd Skynyrd have had so many lineup changes that the past members section on WP ensd with "also see: List of Lynyrd Skynyrd band members" 01:46:20 *ends 01:46:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lynyrd_Skynyrd_band_members 01:47:06 haha 01:47:17 ok, this is ridiculous: 01:47:19 [[The title of the album (and its title track) is written by Mark Stephen Jones, Travis Meadows and Bud Tower. Lyrically, it appears to oppose all kinds of gun control, a notable change from the lyrical stance of the original Lynyrd Skynyrd fronted by Ronnie Van Zant, who many claim sang against handguns in the song Saturday Night Special. When one cites a line from "Saturday Night Special", Van Zant's position on gun control might seem unclear: 01:47:19 "Why don't we dump em, people, to the bottom of the sea", with the subject of the sentence being "em", or handguns, which might also be interpreted as "Why don't we dump em people to the bottom of the sea", with the subject being em people (them people). [3] The potential ambiguity is resolved in the next line, "Before some fool come around here / Wanna shoot either you or me". Had Van Zant's subject of the previous line been "em people", then th 01:47:23 e guns would still be accessible.]] 01:47:40 it just sort of gets more and more ridiculous then climaxes in that final sentence 01:49:15 it was meant to be named bzspoiajsd, but that name's apparently illegal in Norway <-- i don't know, our name laws have been considerably loosened in recent years. 01:49:24 i think he was thinking of sweden 01:49:25 :P 01:49:31 perhaps 01:49:36 hmm, i should read techdirt more 01:49:38 but besides, "recent years" 01:49:47 I don't think it was recent when Knuth wrote TeX 01:50:14 Do you mean \linepenalty was supposed to be bzspoiajsd but they wanted to make sure the program was not illegal in Norway???? 01:50:36 Yes. 01:50:39 Yes, that is what we mean. 01:50:46 zzo38: we may well be lying, though 01:50:55 elliott: I don't believe that..... 01:51:28 it's ok if you don't believe it or if you do believe it, in the end everybody has to be able to make up their own mind 01:51:54 i have little idea what our name law does say these days 01:51:56 ais523: OK 01:52:44 * oerjan googles 01:56:25 bzspoiajsd is probably illegal anyway, it's just too weird. 01:56:47 oerjan: I FIND THAT VERY OFFENSIVE 01:56:59 * elliott decides not to reveal that his name is actually Bzspoiajsd "Elliott" Hird for the time being 01:57:04 too many JERKS 01:57:05 like OERJAN 01:57:32 I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!! 01:57:47 `addquote I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!! 01:57:50 346) I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!! 01:58:03 you are not allowed to give a child a first name that would be a considerable burden to it. the word "considerable" (vesentlig) was added in the recent liberalization. 01:58:23 dammit, so much for Dicknose Hird 01:58:38 also you cannot use a surname as a first name unless it's already traditionally a first name. 01:58:40 GUESS WE NEED THAT ABORTION AFTER ALL 01:58:45 What if the child decide to change their own name afterward? What are laws about that? 01:58:51 (if we say this enough, the conservatives will get scared about the name law causing rampant abortion) 01:59:32 hmm, does configuring language-pack-en-base normally take a long time? 01:59:51 elliott: Yes, maybe they should get scared of the name laws (whether or not it causes abortion) 01:59:55 * oerjan clicks the actual law text 02:00:04 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: I wish I had something witty to put here...). 02:00:19 elliott: language configuration often does take a while 02:00:23 [Smoking Everywhere] (4:43:09 PM): NO LIMIT 02:00:25 [CX] (4:43:21 PM): awesome! 02:00:25 ^ this was judged to actually change a contract 02:00:49 NO LIMIT constituted an acception of the previous offer to change the contract (a few lines saying "blah blah if I have your blessing"), "awesome!" was the agreement 02:00:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:00:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 02:00:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:00:58 which is, what's the word 02:01:00 awesome 02:01:04 ais523: it's been doing it for about 10 minutes 02:01:28 it normally doesn't take /that/ long 02:01:38 which is what's worrying me 02:01:41 I think I'll restart the installation 02:02:04 the VM is worryingly slow, anyway 02:02:34 * elliott disables APIC on a hunch 02:04:07 hmm, now the installer won't even start 02:05:24 §3: Surnames held by more than 200 people in Norway can be changed to by anyone without consent. otherwise you need their consent or have a specific right to use it. 02:08:39 A surname which _no one_ has, you can use unless (1) It's too similar to another, protected name (2) It's identical to a wellknown trademark or similar (3) Is or has been used as a first name, and is not traditionally also a surname. 02:08:47 *It is 02:08:52 Albin Coca-Cola 02:09:06 precisely 02:09:24 oh well, at least it stops parents giving their kids names like "Ørjan Johansen" 02:09:37 true, true. (note: not actually true.) 02:09:49 clearly I must start Johansen Enterprises 02:09:55 Do they have a list of what is traditionally a given name and surname? 02:10:05 (Johansen is still the second most common surname in norway, iirc) 02:10:17 so are you like Joe Smith? 02:10:20 that's so coooooooool 02:10:48 zzo38: the central people register, is what the law refers to 02:11:20 no, more like Gregor Smith 02:12:01 (Ørjan is no. 50 or so, unless i misremember) 02:12:16 "Smith" is a common surname in Norway? :P 02:12:46 Oh, or do you think that Gregor is like name #50 in England/America? 02:12:51 (Which is a pretty broken assumption) 02:13:21 i did report on my checks in the statistical name database on this channel previously... 02:14:04 libc\x2Eso: well i first thought "George" which is actually cognate to Ørjan, but then thought that has to be too common 02:14:15 georjan 02:14:22 We're talking about #50 here, not #1. 02:14:37 * oerjan rechecks 02:14:38 Gregory might be #50, Gregor can't be more than #15,000 in England or America. 02:14:44 http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CMayhejY6P_D5QEQrAIY2AQyCHE0hnAwrr-0 02:14:46 IT'S 02:14:48 HIS HAIR 02:14:50 JUSTIN BIEBER 02:14:52 STARTS FRIDAY 02:14:59 WITH A GANG FIGHT 02:15:24 Gregory might be #50, Gregor can't be more than #15,000 in England or America. 02:15:25 srsly? 02:15:26 gregor is like 02:15:27 a common name 02:15:29 isn't it 02:15:33 i 02:15:34 i guess it isn't 02:15:35 that's weird 02:15:36 libc\x2Eso: oh actually Ørjan is 152 02:15:46 i just remembered the "5" part :D 02:16:04 "Gregor" is effectively unheard of in the US, I can't speak for England. People assume I'm not American based on my name. 02:16:16 yeah i guess it's like 02:16:17 russian sounding 02:16:19 but like 02:16:22 you're the first gregor i know 02:16:25 Johansen is indeed #2 02:16:26 and your name sounds so like 02:16:27 gregor richards 02:16:30 it sounds like a really common name 02:16:44 this is like an optical illusion :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDfghjklup0[i]o;f'lp 02:17:23 Smith is not _unheard_ of in norway, btw, our neighbors when i group up had that name, and there are the "Smith's friends"... 02:17:33 *Church numerals 02:17:52 Smith is #244 02:18:04 *grew up 02:18:06 I can't find a /first name/ DB for USA. 02:18:43 Gregor is pretty rare as a first name in the UK too 02:18:52 MacGregor is a common surname, though 02:18:53 ima call libc\x2Eso Mendel from now on 02:19:10 Heredity: I invented it. That's right. Invented. 02:19:24 i wonder why this vm is so slow 02:19:26 makes me very sad 02:19:29 like a porcubine 02:20:08 Gregory is #37. Gregor isn't in the top 300. I would be surprised if it's in the top 10,000. 02:20:35 here's the statistical page in english: http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/navn_en/ 02:20:44 i swear 02:20:45 it's hugn 02:20:47 on loading the floppy module 02:21:05 In fact, it seems there are too few Gregors in the USA for the census to report it in its summary data 02:21:05 i wonder if they cripple the open source version :D 02:22:26 There are more Eldens, more Keneths who don't know how to spell, more Modestos, more Warners, more Andreases, more Rayfords :P 02:23:21 What's the frekwensee Keneth? 02:23:24 Oh daaaamn! It's #7,153 02:23:43 There are more Gregoires X-D 02:23:45 the english page seems to be missing first names listed by frequency though 02:24:06 But less Gregersons (wtf first name) 02:24:39 * oerjan knew a Greger back in the old home town. mad as a hatter. 02:24:50 wait oerjan has moved? 02:24:53 that's so unoerjan :/ 02:25:02 as in, paranoid schizophrenia or something. 02:25:33 or well, i didn't know him as much as my parents did 02:26:41 "Grega" wtf X-D 02:26:43 WHY DID YOU MOVE OERJAN 02:26:48 libc\x2Eso: Greggsybob 02:26:56 because my home town doesn't have a university? 02:27:03 oerjan: build one there? :/ 02:27:05 AWWWW I WISH MY NAME WAS GREFRATH 02:27:12 that sounds like a pokemon 02:27:24 its call would just be a distorted "grefrath" 02:27:40 An old family name in the Richards family, Dodifer, doesn't appear :P 02:27:41 libc\x2Eso: are you saying _grefrath_ is more common than gregor? 02:27:48 oerjan: No, that one's less :P 02:28:00 Now I'm just staring at silly names :P 02:28:28 WHAT'S THE LEAST FREQUENT NAME 02:28:41 The artist formerly known as Prince 02:28:52 Is it Shwiuqeiêé'eakrtaqx (pronounced "Chan-ikwah") 02:28:59 OMG RACISM 02:29:03 No, that's like #15 02:29:08 X-D 02:29:26 ♥ the "qx" btw :P 02:29:38 It's a silent qx. 02:33:23 §4 lists a lot of ways you can have a right to a surname, starting with your great great grandparents having had it, and including marriage, farm names and a lot of other minor cases. Adoption is not there but in §5. 02:34:46 yay, newer closed source virtualbox is... kind of faster 02:34:55 except not 02:35:07 elliott: also kind-of broken 02:35:13 ais523: howso? 02:35:32 (it does start with an oracle logo on bootup though, which I find repulsive :)) 02:35:51 at least on our NetHack TASing server, trying to poweroff hangs, force-quitting corrupts the disk image, and the kernel spouts all sorts of filesystem errors on reload 02:36:05 ais523: known bug with ext4 02:36:10 it tells you to enable the host cache 02:36:14 when you start the VM 02:36:15 at least for me 02:36:20 that's ext3 02:36:25 well, maybe ext3 too 02:37:13 §6 allows you to make the spelling of your surname less weird. Also to change the gender ending if it has one. (The latter isn't precisely common.) 02:37:46 and again, virtualbox gets stuck on the 02:37:47 EXTREMELY 02:37:48 DIFFICULT 02:37:49 TASK 02:37:51 of loading the floppy module 02:38:28 maybe i'll install the EXACT VERSION vorpal used 02:40:46 ais523: i think i concur re kind of broken 02:40:55 §7 allows you to combine two surnames with a hyphen. §8 prohibits using surnames as first names unless traditionally first names. §9 allows surnames to be used as middle names. §10 contains the prohibition agains adopting a name that could be a considerable burden, it actually says nothing about whether it's a child or not. 02:41:05 zzo38: ^ §10 up there 02:41:26 also, "other strong reasons" 02:41:31 * elliott http://dlc.sun.com/virtualbox/3.2.6/ 02:41:47 karmic? that's the same thing as maverick! 02:41:51 or did lucid come after karmic 02:41:59 ah, lucid is what i want 02:42:16 ais523: so are you planning on updating to ubuntu 11.04? 02:42:28 perhaps; I didn't update to 10.10 02:42:33 I may go LTS from now on 02:42:42 §10 also prohibits changing your name more than every 10th year, except in certain cases like marriage or reversing a previous change 02:42:47 also, Ubuntu's getting a worse attitude as time goes on 02:42:48 ais523: the thing with 11.04 is that you get Unity, which is terrible 02:42:59 (it had the potential to be good, but last I checked, it's god-awful) 02:43:01 hopefully it'll be less terrible by release 02:43:02 (literally unusable) 02:43:07 ais523: it's at beta already... 02:43:16 this _is_ the month :P 02:43:25 from what I've heard, the concept's decent, but the implementation is so inefficient it doesn't run on anything 02:43:35 it's not about inefficiency, it's that it's basically a skeleton 02:43:40 like the application picker thing 02:43:44 you can type things and click things 02:43:50 I'm not even sure pasting worked 02:43:55 it felt really weird 02:44:03 and the way you can drag the icons on the left was just... weird and stupid and pointles 02:44:04 s 02:44:06 ah 02:44:19 ais523: FWIW, I can vouch that Debian works flawlessly on your hardware (well, its big brother, but they're basically identical) 02:44:39 yep, I'm just not sure if I want to go through the trouble of an OS reinstall 02:44:42 and Debian ~= older Ubuntu, with a tiny tweak to make PolicyKit use sudo 02:44:42 rather than upgrade 02:44:51 I wonder if upgrading will keep Gnome 02:44:52 * oerjan sees a bug in §6: it doesn't consider the case of a gender _prefix_ like arabic ibn/bint 02:45:03 oerjan: OR A GENDER INFIX 02:45:54 although since that surname doesn't actually inherit as such, it should only apply to actual transgendering... 02:46:02 *that surname form 02:46:42 "transgendering", there's a word 02:47:12 lol, googling suggest dan brown was the first to use it 02:47:14 [[The act of tattooing one’s skin was a transformative declaration of power, an announcement to the world: I am in control of my own flesh. The intoxicating feeling of control derived from physical transformation had addicted millions to flesh-altering practices …. . . cosmetic surgery, body piercing, bodybuilding, and steroids . . . even bulimia and transgendering.]] 02:47:16 and the change would probably be allowed by the other paragraphs in any case (that one in particular says that changing the gender doesn't count as a change at all for the rest of the law) 02:47:25 that has to the most bizarre paragraph i've read in a while 02:48:45 might be going slightly off the deep there at the end 02:48:50 ugh, the version vorpal used seems to be no faster 02:50:29 I wish the port of OpenGenera to linux sucked less, so it could be used directly 02:50:38 but then it's genera itself that craps all over your config... 02:52:39 libc\x2Eso: "maloader is a Mach-O (OSX) loader for Linux. It is already able to run the XCode toolchain on Linux. [repost from /r/linux]" 02:52:55 HOLY AWESOME 02:52:59 WANT 02:53:01 libc\x2Eso: Clearly you must create (A,B)loader, parameterisable over executable format A and OS B. 02:53:08 ONLY THEN WILL YOU RULE 02:53:11 omfg 02:53:13 libc\x2Eso: it's shinh's <3 02:53:16 shinh: the best???? 02:53:17 THE BEST 02:53:20 https://github.com/shinh/maloader 02:53:44 Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQTW7Pd1vqc 02:53:45 elliott: Thankee 02:53:57 libc\x2Eso: DON'T THANK ME, THANK SHINH 02:54:05 elliott: Thank you for the INFO 02:54:11 libc\x2Eso: ALL THANKS GO TO SHINH 02:54:16 Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQTW7Pd1vqc 02:54:20 Is shinh somebody I should know? :P 02:54:24 Ten seconds in, this already has more melody than the entire original 02:54:29 §14 allows the government ("the King") to make appropriate special rules for foreigners (only wrt protected surnames) and norwegians abroad. 02:54:35 elliott: lol 02:54:41 libc\x2Eso: shinh runs Anarchy Golf (http://golf.shinh.org/), implemented 64-bit support (and more) for tcc... 02:54:49 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkidokie 02:55:05 *foreigners in norway 02:55:59 libc\x2Eso: this is much better than the original 02:56:16 I'm discovering that all of Bad Lip Reading's versions are better than the originals :P 02:56:48 Distinct chicken and fighting theme I see 02:57:49 §16 says that if you already have two surnames with no hyphen, you can keep it that way. i presume that and §7 means you're no longer allowed to adopt two surnames without a hyphen. 02:58:30 libc\x2Eso: The thing is that really, you only see their lips so often, so most of this is them just making up shit X-D 02:58:48 Yeah, but still amusing :P 03:00:20 and the rest of the law is just boring bureaucracy. 03:02:20 I fear that this VM will be ridiculously slow :( 03:04:18 libc\x2Eso: Great, now "ASIAN BABEH" is stuck in my head X_X 03:05:55 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Can I get some monkey brains or mermaid?). 03:07:28 No. 03:08:42 hey augur what are you doing on my reddits 03:09:42 uh 03:09:55 something? 03:09:56 nothing? 03:11:04 evil linguist plotting, probably 03:11:28 whats up now 03:11:45 the roof 03:12:03 elliott: whats happening with your reddits 03:12:08 augur: you're on them 03:12:12 what 03:12:34 yes 03:12:44 i dont follow 03:13:12 GOD DAMMIT KERNEL JUST INSTAL 03:13:14 L 03:14:05 Vorpal: FIX IT 03:15:37 elliott: how am i on your reddits 03:15:45 augur: you are 03:15:51 how tho 03:17:07 i saw your name 03:17:08 thats illegal 03:17:40 oh? where about? 03:18:23 reddit 03:18:55 -!- pumpkin has joined. 03:19:02 right but where on reddit 03:19:39 a comment page 03:20:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:20:06 elliott: which subreddit 03:20:11 seriously, dont make me hurt you 03:20:23 a... subreddit 03:20:24 gosh 03:20:29 annoying you is difficult 03:20:38 WHICH SUBREDDIT 03:20:52 LA LA LA LA I CANT'T HEAR YOU 03:20:53 *CAN'T 03:21:12 im going to assume the haskell subreddit 03:21:34 * Sgeo fails to see augur as having posted anything 03:21:37 nope :D 03:21:42 it was actually /r/politics 03:21:45 you came #1 in best ranking and i was like 03:21:47 hey i know that name 03:21:49 it's that annoying fag 03:21:50 so yeah 03:21:56 #1 in best ranking? 03:21:58 oh 03:21:59 oh! 03:22:06 the arrested development picture 03:22:07 yes ok 03:22:32 oerjan: ALWAYS WITH THE CHEAP KARMA THAT AUGUR 03:22:43 elliott: you know it! 03:22:47 we /real/ #esoteric redditors, why, we contribute things of value, don't we ais523 03:22:54 and...er...oerjan 03:23:13 elliott: occasionally 03:23:47 ais523: btw did you see how grauenwolf replied to you? 03:23:49 i think he got mad :D 03:25:56 yes, I did 03:27:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:27:17 hmm, does anyone have a simple way to create a window of WxH size in X? 03:27:19 it can be blank 03:32:03 cool, pbmlife(1) :D 03:33:15 wow, Multics' `calendar`'s source was ugl 03:33:16 *ugly 03:34:46 hmm, it has -flags 03:34:50 so -flags don't originate from unix 03:34:54 although, Multics' were multiple-word 03:34:59 and also had abbreviations 03:35:04 -julian == -jul 03:35:07 -date D == -dt D 03:35:12 ais523: GNU didn't invent GNU long options :D 03:35:40 did they invent the -- convention? 03:35:45 ais523: well, probably 03:36:02 this program seems to date back to 1972/1973 03:36:09 and it's a huge mess of PL/I: http://multicians.org/calendar.html 03:36:18 dunno if the indentation just got messed up or whether it was really that awful 03:36:24 if ec ^= 0 then /* Ought to be an error, but might be old syntax. */ 03:36:24 if an = 1 then goto try_date; 03:36:25 else goto arg_value_error; 03:36:25 call hcs_$initiate_count(if_data.if(i).dn,if_data.if(i).en,"",if_data.if(i).bitc,1, 03:36:25 if_data.if(i).ifptr,ec); 03:36:25 if if_data.if(i).ifptr = null then /* Ought to be an error, but ... */ 03:36:26 if an = 1 then /* .. check for old syntax. */ 03:36:28 do; 03:37:00 they sure as hell had no 80 column rule :D 03:43:13 11:10:02 you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places 03:43:14 11:10:14 oklopol: Thus far it's not sounding like a love story. 03:43:30 Should have included 11:09:58 oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?! 03:43:31 at the top there. 03:44:13 11:14:24 the same sort of discovery as when you put a battery in backwards in an old-fashioned analog battery-powered clock, and the hands start ticking backwards 03:44:15 ais523: does this work 03:44:18 tell me this works 03:44:26 -!- libc\x2Eso has changed nick to Gregor. 03:44:29 elliott: it does work 03:44:32 on some sorts of clock, at least 03:44:34 possibly not all of them 03:44:34 ais523: i 03:44:40 ais523: my life is complete 03:44:48 Argh. Stupid bip. Every time I connect from a different place it names me back to Gregor :P 03:44:56 it never works on digital clocks, but certain analog clocks, it does 03:45:52 -!- azaq231 has joined. 03:47:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:50:38 11:20:38 * ais523 has trouble remembering events from the future 03:50:39 deep 03:50:44 ais523: lol if it worked on digital clocks 03:53:34 15:54:04 There once lived a family of old, old wasps. These wasps, every day, would clamour for a chance to see the Queen Wasp -- like a queen bee, but more a figurehead than a head of state, you see -- and the rest of the time they fantasised about seeing the Queen Wasp. One day they all got killed in a very boring way, and Bjorn knew nothing of this as he passed through the forest in which they didn't live. 03:53:35 wow, i used to be a poet :| 04:05:11 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:11:43 13:39:12 AnMaster: So is their C-to-LISP compiler actually available? Does it work with semi-real code? 04:11:53 Gregor: to belatedly answer: AFAIK ZETA C is not available. 04:11:58 Oh! It is! 04:12:01 http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/TI/Explorer/zeta-c/ 04:12:03 For TI Explorer, though. 04:12:06 Not Symbolics. 04:12:11 There is a TI emulator, though. 04:12:18 And *Zeta-C 04:12:22 Oh, *ZETA-C 04:12:28 Wow, talk about "belatedly" 04:12:34 Gregor: Yeah X-D 04:12:48 Gregor: ZETA-C is awesome; its pointers are actually cons cells. 04:12:55 (array . index). NULL is (NIL . 0). 04:13:08 "All pointers were represented as pairs of an array and an index; NULL was 04:13:09 simply a pair of NIL and 0. If you cast a pointer to an integer, you got a 04:13:09 cons of the array part and the index part. You could later cast this back to 04:13:09 a pointer without loss of information, but obviously you couldn't do 04:13:09 arithmetic on it while it was in the form of a cons." 04:13:24 "ZETA-C attempted (fairly successfully, I think) to find the right compromise 04:13:24 between performance and generality. If you looked real closely, there were 04:13:24 lots of little corners of C semantics where ZETA-C was not correct. In 04:13:24 practice, however, one very rarely tripped over any of these. 04:13:24 For instance, I used Lisp integers for C `int' and `long'. This meant bignums 04:13:25 would be created automatically, as usual in Lisp. Technically this is not a 04:13:27 correct C implementation (even though I don't think the standard specifically 04:13:29 says that the length of `int' and `long' shall be finite, one can take this as 04:13:31 implied) but it very rarely ran into trouble. The only such case I remember, 04:13:33 which was rather amusing, was a program that did something like 04:13:35 " 04:13:37 Gregor: Bignumz! 04:13:43 " int i; 04:13:43 for (i = 1; i; i <<= 1) ... 04:13:43 (shifting a 1 bit left repeatedly, expecting it to fall off the left end of 04:13:47 the word). 04:13:49 " 04:13:57 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 04:17:46 -!- calamari has joined. 04:18:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:23:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:25:39 15:41:49 i would like to inform you all that i just fixed an error in Gregor's plof implementation using my penis 04:25:39 15:42:30 He didn't fix it, he just identified it. 04:25:41 Gregor: what 04:26:05 You seem to think I have memory. 04:26:08 I do not. 04:26:12 15:45:57 alise: @ despite appearances is a reserved _word_ (operator-like word), not a reserved character, so it doesn't count as special inside other operators. many other things like -- and \ are similar, afair. but somethings work like actual punctuation, like brackets, semicolons and commas. iirc. 04:26:14 oerjan: *some things 04:26:20 Gregor: I don't eithello Gregor! 04:26:27 How are you toit sure is boring today. 04:26:38 Nobody's said anything in the laman, I am a rabbit indeed. 04:26:39 Reddit is down 04:26:40 *I am 04:26:51 Meaning #reddit-downtime is crowded with nuts 04:34:16 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:37:13 The only problem with troubleshooting is that sometimes trouble shoots back. 04:38:58 > let (+;) = 3 in (+;) 04:38:59 : parse error on input `;' 04:39:32 i guess allowing ; would just be too weird. 04:39:47 also complicate the indentation rule 04:40:43 > let (+,) = 3 in (+,) 04:40:44 : parse error on input `,' 04:43:11 oh and it would interact badly with unary minus 04:43:25 of course some things already do that 04:43:35 > 2 == -2 04:43:36 False 04:43:38 > 2 ==-2 04:43:39 Not in scope: `==-' 04:44:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:54:17 WTF, now the VM crashes on boot 04:54:23 oh, or not 04:54:54 das boot 04:55:47 das u-boot is a bootloader :p 04:57:30 natürlich 05:00:19 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 05:00:35 oops 05:00:40 -!- oerjan_ has quit (Client Quit). 05:00:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:00:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:02:25 hm i don't like this network error, that's the second time this week 05:02:38 -!- pumpkin has joined. 05:02:51 oerjan: it's okay *hugs* 05:03:00 variable, what is your Clearance? 05:03:06 it's coming from _inside_ the house 05:03:14 What VM? 05:04:00 i have an idea i'll try if it happens again, though. 05:04:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:06:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:07:57 (one of the router boxes looks like it might be misbehaving, but the other one was recently replaced and now has many more outgoing whatchamacallits, so i may just scratch the misbehaving one. perhaps.) 05:11:33 gah, genera does not seem to be working 05:12:49 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:13:51 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:14:40 Sgeo: clearence ? 05:14:44 * clearance 05:15:15 Citizen! Failure to properly report your clearance is treason! 05:18:28 variable: buy me a lisp machine ktnx 05:22:29 GENERA FUCKING STARTS 05:22:30 YES 05:22:33 uh 05:22:37 hasn't dignified any bootup text yet though 05:22:43 oh the vm froe 05:22:44 ze 05:22:45 cool 05:23:26 kinda disappointed variable isn't rushing to purchase me a lisp machine, that's never happened to me before 05:29:26 -!- augur has joined. 05:42:10 hey Vorpal! I think I may have a clue why internet in genera didn't work 05:42:19 "Address for GENERA: INTERNET 172.23.24.15" --the define site screen 05:42:22 that doesn't look right to me! 05:42:44 oh wait that is right for the vm 05:55:22 Vorpal: it works. thank you, thank you, thank you for creating this guide. 05:55:48 http://ompldr.org/vODNieQ "It is two hundred sixty-seven words long." 05:58:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Working on homework tomorrow). 06:02:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 06:03:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:06:06 this intro is so awesome 06:08:25 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:30:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:35:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:52:10 What was the first full-ASCII terminal? 06:52:15 As in, both uppercase and lowercase. 06:57:00 Gregor: BTW, also-belatedly in reply, I half-plan to write a mouse-oriented tiling WM since none seem to exist (apart from... acme). 06:57:06 Actually wmii might do it... 07:09:51 http://vlee.sourceforge.net/ 07:57:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:07:39 -!- sftp has joined. 08:08:04 -!- sftp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:08:19 "I have two thoughts about why students resist the idea of functions being values of no fundamentally different character than any others. One source, no doubt, is that many of them have “learned” programming on the street, and have developed all sorts of misconceptions that are being applied here." 08:08:25 Dangerous street programming gangs! 08:18:45 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:21:50 hey Vorpal! I think I may have a clue why internet in genera didn't work <-- oh? 08:21:56 Vorpal: I was wrong 08:22:27 Vorpal: anyway, it works, but it's a crapshoot to get it started; half the time the bottom bar loads and I can move my mouse around and it changes but it won't load the rest and clicking out of the window causes X to freeze silently 08:22:33 the rare case, it works 08:22:52 elliott, I haven't had that issue you mentioned 08:23:01 Vorpal: it works. thank you, thank you, thank you for creating this guide. <-- so does that mean you think I'm awesome? 08:23:04 I assume it does 08:23:54 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:23:55 Dangerous street programming gangs! <-- I like the idea 08:24:45 well you'd be awesome if it didn't hang like that. and if it were faster. and if the scroll wheel worked. 08:24:54 ...and backspace worked... 08:25:22 elliott, the scrollback worked afaik? 08:25:29 ??? 08:25:33 elliott, and delete does what backspace does 08:25:36 yes, it does 08:25:39 but delete is annoying to press her 08:25:40 e 08:25:42 fn+backspace 08:25:44 ah... 08:25:50 also every F-key :D 08:25:56 hm? 08:25:59 Fn+Shift+F10 was fun to press. 08:26:10 as in, "I now have carpal tunnel" fun 08:26:18 hah 08:26:25 elliott, well that is your keyboard's fault 08:26:38 elliott, my thinkpad have proper keys for it 08:26:49 *has 08:26:52 and depends on your definition of proper 08:26:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:26:55 elliott, besides Fn+Shift is easy, Fn is right below shift 08:26:59 if you mean clustered at the top in a random jumble... :P 08:27:06 and yes it is, but i still had to bend my hand to get both pressed 08:27:12 elliott, well yes 08:27:20 elliott, or move your hand 08:27:35 10:48:32 alise, it's a lovely idea, but I enjoy programming, and as such am a terrible developer. 08:27:35 HA HA HA THOSE WERE THE DAYS 08:27:40 JULY 2010 EH 08:27:51 elliott, what idea? 08:28:04 Lisp OS things. But the point is that PH said he enjoys programming there, ha ha ha 08:28:12 hah 08:28:42 elliott, I thought he enjoyed procrastinating? 08:28:52 X-D 08:29:00 I wonder if I could write the @ compiler in BitC. 08:29:14 interesting idea 08:29:52 elliott, or write your own meta compiler in coq? Which is used to compile the compiler 08:30:03 yo dawg 08:30:07 :D 08:31:56 Vorpal: Do you think a hash tree would work for storing objects in @? 08:31:58 I've been thunkin'. 08:32:46 11:17:17 Of course I mean VirtualBox. Writing bootloaders in Visual Basic is so stupid it's almost cool. 08:32:46 BEST IDEA 08:33:54 elliott, hash tree? Err? 08:33:57 wait what 08:34:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_tree 08:35:13 seems to be used for verification rather? 08:35:32 btw I think I have a cold 08:35:52 Vorpal: yes, but if you look at the structure... 08:35:57 and pretend the arrows go the other way... 08:36:03 it's suddenly a lookup tree 08:37:21 hm 08:38:10 12:09:18 Basically, aliseOS will make you toast, take over the internet so you have some more computing power, make your mind explode every time you use it, and sexually gratify your dog*. 08:38:10 12:09:29 *Advanced edition only. 08:38:11 12:10:46 But I don't have a dog 08:38:11 12:10:57 zzo38: It will buy you a dog first. 08:38:11 12:11:28 But I don't need a dog 08:38:45 (12:11:36 Yes, but the dog will be cuddly, you see. But I don't want a dog) 08:43:46 routine that is a pain to code in python: "if all these lines start with a common whitespace prefix, remove it from all of them" 08:52:39 > transpose . dropWhile ((`elem` [" ", "\t"]) . map head . group) . transpose $ [" \t a ha", " \t\tbc", " \t hm"] 08:52:41 [" a ha","\tbcm"," h"] 08:52:56 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:53:27 wait what 08:53:36 darn 08:55:04 -!- cheater00 has joined. 08:55:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:56:37 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:00:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:07:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:16:56 oerjan: bastard 09:17:02 oerjan: get it right so i can port it :-D 09:19:23 > join (drop . length . takeWhile (`elem` [" ","\t"]) . map (map head . group) . transpose) $ [" \t a ha", " \t\tbc", " \t hm"] 09:19:25 [" \t hm"] 09:19:32 er nope 09:19:47 > join (map . drop . length . takeWhile (`elem` [" ","\t"]) . map (map head . group) . transpose) $ [" \t a ha", " \t\tbc", " \t hm"] 09:19:49 [" a ha","\tbc"," hm"] 09:20:31 that should strp no prefix 09:20:33 oh wait 09:20:37 it should strip just the \t 09:20:38 *strip 09:21:19 it does what i thought it should... 09:21:36 right 09:21:36 yes 09:21:47 > join (map . drop . length . takeWhile (`elem` [" ","\t"]) . map (map head . group) . transpose) $ [" x"," x"," x"] 09:21:49 [" x","x"," x"] 09:22:03 ok, now to find a way to express that in a way that Idiot Python will understand 09:22:27 :t transpose 09:22:28 forall a. [[a]] -> [[a]] 09:22:33 > transpose [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]] 09:22:34 [[1,4],[2,5],[3,6]] 09:22:38 gah 09:22:48 oerjan: it'd probably be easier to convert this whole program to haskell :D 09:22:53 heh :D 09:22:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:23:20 note i am giving no guarantees that this is the most efficient method, even in haskell... 09:24:13 i can't believe i'm brainfreezing on how to do it in python X_X 09:25:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:25:13 HEY OERJAN, MAKE AN IMPERATIVE ALGORITHM FOR IT :D 09:25:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:25:47 um loop over the first line until you either hit whitespace or something which isn't in all lines? 09:25:53 *non-whitespace 09:27:09 oerjan: except that the first line could have more than the prefix 09:27:13 oh, i see what you mean 09:27:21 isn't that uh 09:27:23 O(mn) 09:27:29 where m is the prefix chars and n is the number of lines apart from the first 09:27:35 what a strange complexity 09:28:10 that's not strange, that's how many characters you actually need to check to be sure what to remove 09:28:19 well, eys 09:28:20 yes 09:28:23 but that's still strange! 09:29:45 trying to drink gravy from one compartment in a telly dinner while there is still liquid in another is not recommended. 09:29:56 noted 09:32:16 it's still O(n) in the actual file size 09:35:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:35:39 oerjan, you've now given me the most pathetic image ever. 09:36:05 Unemployed mathematician sitting on a sofa with TV dinner liquid all over him. 09:38:24 (Are you still an unemployed mathematician?) 09:52:06 yes. although it was just a little potato water. 09:52:18 and a chair, not a sofa. 09:53:02 why, i'd PAY oerjan to be an unemployed mathematician 09:53:10 ...interesting. 09:53:25 note: this counts as employment 09:54:00 darn. 09:55:32 sorry to disappoint 09:55:39 oerjan: i'll pay you to work on @ ;D 09:59:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Going elsewhere for dessert). 09:59:49 -!- cheater- has joined. 10:01:25 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:15:03 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:33:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:33:51 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 10:37:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 10:38:05 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:39:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:40:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:40:48 -!- Zuu has joined. 10:42:13 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:43:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:44:09 -!- Lymia has joined. 10:51:30 -!- elliott has joined. 10:53:40 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:57:16 elliott, I looked more at the hash-tree, and I can't see how you could use it for lookup 10:57:27 Vorpal: Like I said, pretend the arrows go the other way X-D 10:57:31 elliott, each hash is a hash of the entire subset of blocks 10:57:50 elliott, yes indeed, but I can't figure out how you can make it more than one level deep (a hash-list...) 10:59:13 True :P 10:59:47 elliott, so in other words, it won't work 10:59:52 OH WELL 10:59:59 elliott, b-tree is useful :P 11:00:08 Sure, if you're LOSER :P 11:00:16 elliott, okay do a b+-tree then 11:04:44 bbl 11:30:06 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:31:45 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:33:13 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:41:41 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:43:07 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:46:16 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:49:56 -!- sftp has joined. 11:56:34 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:57:40 -!- sftp has joined. 12:05:04 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:14:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:15:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:21:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:36:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:43:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:49:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:53:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:54:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:00:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:12:34 15:29:34 it's like, drowning while strapped to a board and having fun! 14:13:50 waterboarding? 14:16:45 yes, the sport version 14:16:59 15:25:23 olsner: ok so maybe with waterboarding you're actually like 14:16:59 15:25:29 olsner: lying flat on the board at all times 14:16:59 15:26:10 hmm, that could work 14:16:59 15:26:24 although you do that when surfing too, just not all the time 14:16:59 15:27:07 olsner: right, but CONSTANTLY 14:16:59 15:27:09 olsner: ooh 14:17:01 15:27:16 olsner: maybe your arms go underneath, and you tie them to it 14:17:03 15:27:18 same with feet 14:17:05 15:27:21 you become one with the board! 14:17:07 15:29:34 it's like, drowning while strapped to a board and having fun! 14:17:10 15:30:39 olsner: yup! 14:17:11 15:30:46 olsner: just like waterboarding. 14:17:13 15:32:37 well, the torture version is less likely to kill you I think 14:17:15 lolflood 14:17:23 olsner: Thank you for this life wisdom: 14:17:25 17:26:33 it's all fun and games until you think of the details 14:18:07 hehe, that's so true 14:24:08 20:08:46 I also like what I've heard of Nickleback 14:24:08 20:09:04 Although the lyrics are objectionable -- I am able to hande that 14:24:08 i should only read logs from like 2005 so i don't have to have my nice relaxing times pooped on by terribleness 14:24:48 20:11:27 Are you saying I can hear the same melody, with different lyrics??? 14:24:48 MY LIFE IS FINALLY COMPLETE 14:25:05 You had the nick elliott before 2010? 14:25:13 Phantom_Hoover: ? 14:25:26 That conversation with olsner? 14:25:36 Is from 2010-10-30. 14:26:14 Phantom_Hoover: ? 14:26:30 Oh, right. 14:26:54 Phantom_Hoover: WHEN DID YOU THINK IT WAS FROM 14:27:08 I THOUGHT IT WAS THE DISTANT PAST 14:27:14 LIKE, 2 OR 3 YEARS AGO 14:29:36 Phantom_Hoover: YOU THINK THAT'S DISTANT, I WAS IN HERE A WHOLE ONE TIME IN 2006 14:29:43 [~/esotericlogs]% grep ehird 06.* 20 14:29:44 06.12.29:12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric 14:29:44 06.12.29:12:43:09 --- part: ehird left #esoteric 14:29:44 [~/esotericlogs]% 14:29:50 FULLY FIVE YEARS AGO 14:30:07 BACK WHEN I WAS ELLIOTT'S REAL AGE 14:30:14 (THREE) 14:30:32 [~/esotericlogs]% grep ehird 06.* | wc -l 14:30:33 2 14:30:33 [~/esotericlogs]% grep ehird 07.* | wc -l 14:30:33 25729 14:30:36 SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWRTH 14:30:39 *GROWTH 14:30:43 NO 14:30:55 > 25729/2 14:30:55 12864.5 14:31:11 > 25729 * 12864.5 14:31:12 3.309907205e8 14:31:20 MY PREDICTION IS MADE 14:32:46 [~/esotericlogs]% for i in 06 07 08 09 10; do grep "^..:..:.. <(ehird|elliott|alise|iEhird)[^>]*>" $i.* | wc -l; done 14:32:46 0 14:32:46 23597 14:32:46 52801 14:32:46 180807 14:32:48 181962 14:32:53 Phantom_Hoover: STATISTICS 14:33:13 SURE BUT YOU CAN'T BEAT ELEGANCE 14:34:22 (I'm amazed you were able to increase your activity from '09 to '10 despite being institutionalised for most of it.) 14:35:35 Phantom_Hoover: You have NO IDEA how quickly I can type on an iPhone now. 14:35:55 Also, '10 I was locked up, '09 I was free. But yeah, no idea how I managed to quadruple my activity :P 14:36:31 I should totally implement my iPhone lockout mechanism on my family's WiFi network just to annoy my father and sister.) 14:36:34 s/)// 14:37:06 Define your iPhone lockout mechanism. Character in password not on iPhone keyboards? 14:37:25 Yes. 14:38:28 21:54:38 HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 14:38:28 21:54:48 i had OS/2 Warp once. 14:38:28 21:55:02 i had all those fucking floppies 14:38:28 21:55:04 it never worked. 14:38:28 some people are just poets 14:38:35 21:55:41 catseye: summary of computing. 14:38:38 some people are DOUBLE POETS 14:39:04 == SUMMARY OF COMPUTING== 14:39:11 I had OS/2 Warp once. 14:39:17 I had all those fucking floppies. 14:39:21 It never worked. 14:40:09 brb editing [[wikipedia:computing]] 14:43:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:45:10 -!- iconmaster has joined. 14:48:38 23:21:31 (i'll have an orange coke. let's slap a bsd gpl on this thing and check it into the github sccs.) 14:54:26 11:14:27 There's a squirrel that lives near my building that I see every so often. I can recognize it's the same squirrel because it has no tail. It is a constant reminder that, visually speaking anyway, squirrels are approximately 50% tail. 14:55:28 it's a half-a-squirrel 14:56:11 it would nicely symmetrical if there was a squirrel tail running about somewhere 14:57:23 Apr 3 12:32:11 rutian thttpd[25281]: 92.240.68.152 - - "GET /wp-content/uploads/2008/10/game-console.jpg HTTP/1.1" 404 0 "http://www.altavista.com/image/randomlink" "webcollage/1.135a" 14:57:24 what 15:06:56 Alta Vista? 15:06:59 That still exists? 15:08:11 :D 15:09:41 looks like it's an altvista-themed frontend for yahoo nowadays 15:12:00 yeah 15:12:36 IT'S STILL MORNING 15:12:45 I've been doing WORK 15:12:48 NO IT'S NOT 15:12:49 And it's still MORNING 15:12:51 ... on SUNDAY 15:12:56 Hey what happened to pikhq, 15:13:28 he died 15:13:31 He /nick'd to pingveno a while ago and doesn't seem to talk much recently. 15:13:40 lawl 15:13:43 ALMOST BELIEVABLE 15:15:58 olsner: btw: so gonna work on that forth again 15:17:14 elliott: nice 15:17:58 olsner: one problem is i need to copy the dictionary elsewhere, cuz right now it's in my code :D 15:18:21 if you put it at the end of your code, can't you just keep adding to it? :) 15:19:08 olsner: 0x55 0xAA 15:19:17 i don't feel like making sure that aligns as some junk dictionary word 15:20:43 hmm, how did i break my interpreter 15:21:40 olsner: some of the words are promisingly tiny though 15:21:41 store:pop bx ; addr 15:21:42 pop ax ; value 15:21:42 mov word [bx], ax 15:21:42 next 15:21:49 where next is 15:21:53 xchg sp, bp 15:21:53 ret 15:22:41 oh doing the forth again? heh 15:23:01 Vorpal: yeah, adding digit reading support and writing a compiler. 15:23:29 hah 15:23:48 elliott, chances of fitting it in 510 bytes? 15:23:58 decent i guess? 15:24:06 maybe more likely if i remove the interpeter :D 15:24:07 :) 15:24:08 *interpreter 15:24:18 "there's a forth there, you just can't get at it" 15:25:25 s/interpreter/REPL/? 15:26:20 Gregor: no, forth terminology is interpreter 15:26:24 Hm. 15:26:27 Okidoke 15:26:41 Gregor: a forth interpreter reads words and executes them. a forth compiler reads words and compiles them into a new word definition 15:26:54 you invoke the compiler with the : word in the interpreter 15:27:17 Fine, but presumably the main problem isn't the interpreter /per se/, but the keyboard interrupt driver, display, all that BS. 15:27:37 Well, still, the interpreter is my longest subroutine :P 15:27:42 Mmm. 15:27:56 http://sprunge.us/chBI 15:28:29 Ohwow, we actually get to see some code? 15:28:38 THERE'S YOUR SCRAP 15:28:42 "ahem" is a good block name :P 15:28:55 not sure what inspired me to call that ahem :D 15:29:55 hmm, i should factor out that word-finder 15:30:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:31:27 Gregor: FWIW, the definition of "Forth" this thing uses is very loose :P 15:32:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:32:45 Well, being /spiritually/ Forth is what's important, not being e.g. ANS Forth :P 15:33:07 Gregor: Define spiritually :P 15:33:34 You must worship the great Forth god. 15:33:40 That it does. 15:35:13 hey omnipit-olsner, after a jz and a ret, will another jz have the same branch? 15:35:16 or could it branch any old way 15:35:29 i.e. does jz or ret invalidate/reset the flag 15:37:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:47:44 elliott, do you need that compiler? Can't you just do threaded code? 15:47:52 Vorpal: ... 15:47:59 string threaded I mean 15:48:05 elliott, as in, interpret everything 15:48:13 plz 2 learn how forth works 15:48:18 mhm 15:49:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:59:44 hmm 15:59:47 do additions to bl overflow into bh? 16:00:21 oh _dear_ that's broken 16:09:32 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:09:57 issue with firefox 4: if I type a m at the start of the address bar, it eats it up as a short cut for switch to tab. Extremely annoying. Any idea how to disable? 16:10:35 Use Chrome 16:11:11 Phantom_Hoover, there are some things I don't like with chrome. 16:16:06 LIKE HOW THEY SEND ALL YOUR DATA TO THE GOOGLES AM I RIGHT 16:16:28 ... 16:18:01 elliott, no. I'm talking about stuff like where the tab bar is. (Yes I know their motivation for it, I don't like it still.) And how it doesn't look native in a Gnome environment. 16:18:15 at least not last I checked. 16:18:18 There are themes to make it native for just about any gnome theme. 16:18:24 That + tell it to use WM decorations. 16:18:29 Looks flawless here. 16:18:34 elliott, as for the tab bar? 16:18:52 Vorpal: If you won't use a browser because of a few pixels difference in where the tab bar is placed, I say you're making up excuses. 16:19:31 elliott, also, I couldn't find advanced options for cookie acception last I looked. And is there a noscript for chrome? Adblock? Firebug? 16:19:41 you can move the tabs to the side with dev channel IIRC 16:19:52 Vorpal: noscript yes (built in even, but there are extensions too) 16:19:55 adblock yes 16:20:00 and firebug? 16:20:02 firebug maybe. there's always the webkit inspector which works fine for me 16:20:06 right 16:20:08 and has basically the same features 16:20:24 including modifying it on the fly? 16:20:25 there is also http://getfirebug.com/releases/lite/chrome/ 16:20:28 Vorpal: um, duh. 16:20:29 everything has that. 16:20:30 ah 16:20:36 firebug lite is shitty though imo 16:20:40 the inspector works fine 16:20:44 elliott, right, so what about the cookie stuff? 16:20:55 https://chrome.google.com/extensions/?hl=en 16:20:56 JFGI :P 16:21:10 hm 16:21:10 https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/cfhdojbkjhnklbpkdaibdccddilifddb?hl=en ;; TOTALLY OFFICIAL (TM) adblock 16:21:44 yep looks good 16:22:47 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:23:05 https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/ppfdcmehpgiojcjgpclmfnbnpdmcmbgo ;; clearlooks scrollbars, not a full theme though :-p 16:24:16 Vorpal: I recommend using the official repos btw on an distro that can. (the .deb from their frontpage just adds an apt repository, installs the chrome package, and self-destructs) 16:24:25 chrome updates far more frequently than debian or ubuntu do :-P 16:24:52 har 16:25:04 elliott, well I found how to disable the thing in firefox 16:31:58 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ghnea/those_of_you_labeled_smart_how_has_it_affected_you/ 16:32:01 -!- nooga has joined. 16:32:03 Dammit, impending sense of dread. 16:40:16 lolololFAIL 16:45:07 Phantom_Hoover: It's Well-Known(tm) that telling kids they're smart kills 'em :P 16:46:00 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:46:24 Well, at least my parents refuse to acknowledge that I am in any way talented. 16:49:00 Phantom_Hoover: QUITE RIGHT HUR HUR 16:49:11 elliott, -_- 16:50:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:50:30 hi ais523 16:50:39 hi 16:50:55 theory: most houses are actually haunted, but by especially shy ghosts who never make their presence known 16:51:07 i... okay 16:51:21 ais523, sounds logical 16:51:32 but why 16:51:40 oh, it's just a theory 16:51:45 but one that's kind-of hard to disprove 16:52:01 yes 16:52:04 it's not a theory 16:52:12 even by the informal sense 16:52:15 because it's not falsifiable 16:52:50 also you mean hypothesis, not theory 16:52:52 now, why is btr behaving wrongly? 16:53:03 Vorpal: theory means hypothesis in informal conversation. 16:53:11 yes 16:53:17 otoh what ais523 said is just a religious belief, so it's a wild conjecture, not a theory or a hypothesis or anything :) 16:53:19 which is wonderfully confusing 16:53:42 elliott, not sure it is religious. Belief though yes. 16:53:50 it is religious 16:53:56 how so= 16:53:57 In the informal sense, basically any sequence of words is a theory, even nonsense :P 16:54:04 (That's my theory anyway HERP DURP) 16:54:08 it's a superstitious belief only able to be taken on faith 16:54:20 hm 16:54:31 elliott, so yes it is conjecture indeed 16:54:33 you could institute some kind of requirement for popularity to be a religious belief, but i don't think that'd hold up in practice 16:55:25 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:55:45 -!- Leonidas has joined. 16:56:22 hmm, wtf is u pwit hthis :/ 16:56:53 ok so it's going the wrong way around 16:56:55 *up with this 16:57:30 elliott, what are you talking about 16:57:35 my forth 16:58:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:58:19 ah 16:59:26 possibly the first on-topic thing i've done in ever >:D 17:00:17 it's a superstitious belief only able to be taken on faith ← I wouldn't define religiousness purely on that basis. 17:00:26 Phantom_Hoover: "religious belief", not "religion" 17:01:58 bleh 17:02:00 olsner olsner olsner :D 17:02:34 OH DUH 17:02:37 that's why it's not working 17:02:39 ...i'm a stupid fuck 17:04:29 yes! 17:04:32 integer reading works! 17:04:42 Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: now is your chance to convince me it needs to support hex 17:05:05 also: in an unprecedented innovation, you can write your integers in packed-letter format 17:05:09 just prefix a word with a 0! 17:05:15 also, you can mix and match 17:05:24 qw9f70 is a number. i'm not sure which. 17:06:05 Well 6e2 is a block drawing character. 17:06:18 0qwe apparently fails to qualify for number status. 17:09:14 Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: ais523: WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY OUT THE FRTH510 DEVELOPER'S PREVIEW 17:09:25 elliott: not right now 17:09:33 *gasp* 17:09:36 elliott, maybe another day 17:09:37 but it's only a 512 byte download! 17:09:39 and implements SEVERAL words! 17:09:46 it can entertain you for whole SECONDS with a simple qemu call! 17:09:58 Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: now is your chance to convince me it needs to support hex <-- it doesn't 17:10:18 elliott, and I would need to install qemu 17:11:00 Vorpal: bochs also works 17:11:07 elliott, not installed either 17:11:14 virtualbox...might work 17:11:15 only have virtualbox around for virtualisation 17:12:23 anyway how long does it take for you to install a package X-D 17:13:23 Phantom_Hoover: do YOU want to try 17:13:29 NO 17:15:11 Phantom_Hoover: WHY NOT 17:15:26 I HAVE NEVER REALLY LEARNED FORTH 17:16:01 Phantom_Hoover: It isn't Forth, it only has six words, of which three you can actually use. 17:16:14 The other three? 17:16:30 One is broken and the other two have no discernable effects from inside the interpreter. 17:16:37 Also I appear to have broken a word. 17:18:17 Phantom_Hoover: ANYWAY THEORETICALLY THIS SYSTEM CAN ALREADY DO ANYTHING 17:18:24 ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS POKE TO THE RIGHT LOCATIONS IN THE PROGRAM 17:18:26 SO THAT IT DOES WHAT YOU WANT 17:22:27 elliott, develop the rest using that 17:22:31 Vorpal: no :D 17:22:38 aww, come on 17:22:42 that was a wonderful idea 17:22:51 with an assembler and a lot of patience it could be done. 17:23:08 you'd want to poke the dictionary so that you have a new entry, "do stuff", that points to some code far away 17:23:12 elliott, real men pokes memory directly. With a magnetic needle 17:23:24 and then you could just modify that code by assembling it manually and poking the words in 17:23:30 elliott, indeed 17:23:40 elliott, how many bytes is it currently? 17:24:09 200 and something last I checked. it's going to expand, obviously, to grow a compiler and more words, but it's also going to contract as I microoptimise 17:24:21 right 17:24:24 I figured out the most ghetto possible way to do IF ... THEN 17:24:33 elliott, test, jmp? 17:24:36 cmov? 17:24:38 not that simple 17:24:45 in most forths, if leaves a special marker on the stack 17:24:49 then goes back and twiddles it with the pointer to the THEN 17:24:50 err not jmp obviously 17:24:52 so that it knows where to jump to 17:24:54 jne rather 17:24:56 but with mine 17:24:58 IF will just: 17:25:01 (1) look at the call stack 17:25:04 (2) read the calling word's code 17:25:14 (3) skip past the call instructions until it finds the address of THEN 17:25:17 (4) jumps there 17:25:18 (if it's false, that is) 17:25:36 so it works by inspecting the machine code that called it :D 17:25:43 heh 17:25:52 i'd like to see you do THAT in C 17:26:16 Easy enough unless you meant portable C 17:26:24 how will that cope with nested ifs? 17:26:30 olsner: it won't 17:26:37 o.O 17:26:41 Deewiant: Good luck getting predictable enough code from the C compiler to manage that 17:26:46 olsner: what's the need? you can just define multiple words 17:26:53 olsner: iirc colorforth doesn't support nested ifs either 17:27:07 (I'm also leaving out ELSE support for the same reason as colorforth; simpler to implement a separate return) 17:28:04 in forth it's normal not to support nested ifs at all? 17:28:10 olsner: not in *forth* 17:28:16 colorforth hardly counts as normal forth :-D 17:28:37 olsner: but anyway this lets me avoid any complicated "compile semantics". 17:28:42 everything has one... semantic. 17:28:55 apart from integer literals, which are treated specially by both interpreter and compiler :) 17:29:00 aha 17:29:11 (they are in a real forth, too, just they have a needless level of indirection (LITERAL)) 17:29:39 -!- lament has joined. 17:29:45 olsner: i think this also means that IF...THEN will fail badly in the interpreter :) 17:30:13 since it'll try and look at the interpreter's source code, which is ofc free-form x86 17:30:23 but who cares, define a temporary word! 17:31:16 -!- catseye has joined. 17:31:22 hi 17:31:41 hi 17:31:47 cat's hi 17:31:57 what is it with norwegians and puns 17:32:36 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Ale) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:32:46 catseye: fwiw, yoob feedback: for some reason, loading a new language hangs the thing for several seconds 17:32:51 also clicking the about language button. 17:33:00 it's quite disconcerting 17:33:06 i'll work on it 17:33:16 "ah. i see the problem. what we need is MORE SPEED" 17:33:22 speed(); speed(); speed(); 17:33:56 it needs to load new classes in the background 17:33:57 also i clicked edit in ale and the whole applet went white :D 17:34:22 never seen that before 17:34:59 speed(); speed(); speed(); <-- that obviously has some call overhead without an inlining compiler! ;P 17:35:17 catseye: hm right 17:35:18 catseye, any plans to add Lazy K :P 17:35:21 catseye: if you click about -> done 17:35:26 catseye: edit/reset/step/run become ungreyed 17:35:29 for some reason 17:35:38 and then clicking edit borks it 17:36:03 i believe that 17:36:22 actually i'm not sure why edit starts off greyed 17:36:29 afaict it leaves no way to actually input an initial program 17:36:56 also the brainfuck input thing reorders text if you type quickly :p 17:37:29 um? the input thing is just a JTextArea... 17:37:41 yes, but the implementation deletes characters from it and repositions the cursor as it goes 17:37:53 so if you type faster than java can wake up and remove the characters, your typing gets out of order 17:38:01 testing! can become ng!testi or whatever 17:38:18 oh, the input box, not the program-editing box 17:38:20 try typing hello world into revcat right as it starts 17:38:20 right 17:40:37 it needs to be a custom control of some kind, not a textarea. 17:40:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:41:26 I wonder why ls is called ls. After all it stands for list directory? Shouldn't it be ld or lsd then? Not sure why the linker is ld... Link Objects? Should be lo? 17:41:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:41:37 catseye: preferably just a box that can hold one char? 17:41:41 and silently buffers them behind the scenes 17:41:55 Vorpal: List Segments from Multics 17:41:56 Vorpal: 'list segments' 17:42:05 in Multics, (collection of) segment(s) = file 17:42:10 Deewiant, ah 17:42:35 dunno where ld comes from 17:42:39 Vorpal: it was carefully chosen to produce a unique value in an existing perfect hash function 17:42:40 hm 17:42:49 catseye, heh :P 17:43:41 Link on up Dem objects 17:43:47 catseye: you should implement frth in yoob :-P 17:43:49 hah 17:44:20 elliott: linkers used to be called loaders 17:44:29 and ld is a plausible abbreviation for "loader" 17:44:32 ais523: hmm, right, I think the Multics one was a loader 17:46:57 SOMEHOW I FEEL CATSEYE DOES NOT EXPERIENCE A WAVE OF EXCITEMENT AT THIS IDEA 17:46:58 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:47:01 Hi :-) 17:47:05 omg impomatic heard 17:47:07 i'm working on the forth 17:47:09 he has spies 17:47:16 wow, someone just made a 14-bit quantum register 17:47:22 that's twice as much as the state of the art a few years ago 17:47:29 ais523: they're second-class persons? 17:47:38 is forcing the hand of a person allowed like that? 17:47:39 wow, someone just made a 14-bit quantum register <-- wow 17:47:44 although they haven't hooked it up into an actual quantum computers 17:47:46 *computer 17:47:48 Elliott: what precisely are you writing? 17:47:59 impomatic: I'm continuing work on my 510-byte Forth. 17:48:13 impomatic: I've added integer literals; after I fix this pesky bug, I'll be adding a compiler. 17:48:35 impomatic: And then I will RULE THE WORLD 17:48:57 elliott: only until Itsy-Forth is released :-P 17:49:05 impomatic: Will IT be 510 bytes of x86? 17:49:07 I THINK NOT 17:49:12 elliott: was "frth" a typo? 17:49:15 catseye: no 17:49:19 Saves a byte :P 17:49:20 i can't find it 17:49:23 impomatic: TECHNICALLY all this work is superfluous; it has poke, you can just poke the program you want into memory and cause the interpreter to jump there with a well-placed additional poke. So I'm DONE ALREADY and it's like 200 bytes. 17:49:41 catseye: that's because it's neither adequately specified, implemented entirely, or mentioned outside of here ever 17:49:44 or indeed given a name 17:50:09 frth = your 510-byte Forth? 17:50:16 maybe :) 17:50:17 elliott, do you mean FRTH? The fingerprint? 17:50:34 catseye: space constraints are twisting it into, uh, something more than a little esoteric 17:50:48 elliott: it'll be as long as it needs to be, probably 1K. Otherwise it'll be missing some features. 17:50:53 impomatic: WELL THEN! 17:51:21 elliott, impomatic: you are both doing it wrong. Do it in VHDL 17:51:29 I could make it smaller if I didn't worry about strict ANS compatibility. 17:51:36 Phantom_Hoover: I'll have to implement something representing the functional/combinatorial world at some point. Lazy K is probably easier to implement than Unlambda. (guessing) 17:51:43 impomatic: I reject your culture of demanding software spend bytes on implementing SO-CALLED ``features'' at the alter of NEEDLESS BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. 17:52:04 Yes, indeed, your BUREAUCRATIC programming style is OBSOLETE and OUTMODED! You would STEAL another 512 bytes from the user for no gain at all! 17:52:13 SUPPORT FRTH, ONE TRUE MINIMALIST FORTH 17:52:19 DOESN'T REQUIRE DOS EITHER BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME 17:52:19 catseye: Unlambda has a few features that more or less make it deliberately awkward to implement 17:52:36 agreed, DOS is awesome, nothing should require an awesome thing 17:52:43 xD 17:55:29 wtf is with some of these bugs :/ 17:55:31 hmm oh wait 17:55:31 hmm 17:55:46 weird 17:57:49 It's not really possible to make the interpreter/compiler loop much smaller than 100 bytes. 17:58:39 By the way, there's a #forth channel :-) 17:58:52 elliott, you know the freebsd bootloader has forth? 17:59:00 Yeah? 17:59:02 elliott, could your forth replace that one? 17:59:12 to make the bootloader smaller 17:59:12 impomatic: I know, but last time I was in it ams wouldn't shut up. 17:59:24 impomatic: Also, err, my interpreter is smaller than that. 17:59:39 Hmmm... I'd be interested in seeing it. 17:59:40 Vorpal: probably not without losing the remaining bootloader functionality :P 17:59:41 Maybe like 50 bytes? 17:59:47 olsner, hah 18:00:06 impomatic: http://sprunge.us/JaXb Here's the currently-something's-broken version :P 18:00:14 Those two commented out lines really should be there, there's just some weird bug I'm tracking down. 18:00:16 the freebsd bootloader doesn't reside in the bootblock 18:00:27 catseye, ah 18:00:28 s/bootblock/MBR/ 18:00:39 impomatic: Unless you count the word reader and word finder (as in, dictionary lookup) in the byte count. 18:00:44 impomatic: But since the compiler reuses them.. 18:00:47 *them... 18:01:21 My loop is compiler and interpreter. Probably why it's bigger. 18:01:25 two example word bodies: 18:01:26 fetch:pop bx 18:01:26 push word [bx] 18:01:27 next 18:01:29 store:pop bx ; addr 18:01:31 pop ax ; value 18:01:33 mov word [bx], ax 18:01:35 next 18:01:38 impomatic: My compiler is a separate word; I'm curious, why are yours intertwined? 18:01:58 (next is just xchg sp, bp; ret) 18:02:18 I keep the top stack entry in a register instead of on the stack. Makes some of the code smaller. 18:02:22 (that store comes out to four bytes, btw) 18:02:26 oh wait, slightly more 18:02:32 7 bytes 18:02:35 (including next) 18:02:38 fetch: mov bx, word [bx] 18:02:43 next 18:02:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:02:55 fetch is six bytes including next 18:03:07 impomatic: Well, yeah, that makes some code shorter. 18:03:13 impomatic: But the stack manipulation words would require more juggling. 18:03:20 As well as pushes. 18:03:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:03:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:03:21 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:03:22 So I'm not sure it pays off. 18:03:26 impomatic: What's your NEXT? 18:03:28 store: pop word [bx] 18:03:32 pop bx 18:03:34 next 18:03:38 impomatic: I'm doing subroutine threaded code, btw. 18:03:54 Also, how does that store work at all... 18:03:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:04:13 Isn't that reversed? 18:04:39 thanks for the pop-to-dereference trick though :P 18:04:48 store is now 6 bytes X-D 18:05:48 elliott: I have two different NEXT. At the moment I can do indirect of direct threaded. 18:05:56 of EQU or 18:06:08 For me, subroutine threaded pays off massively. 18:06:16 Because I can reuse the short x86 stack instructions. 18:06:37 You could use INT 3 for next. It's only 1 byte :-) 18:06:54 so is ret... 18:08:46 How do you handle the return address if you're using the stack for other stuff? 18:08:58 impomatic: xchg sp, bp :P 18:10:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:10:07 So each word starts and ends with xchg sp, bp? 18:10:27 impomatic: No -- each word ends with it, and then a ret. Well, usually; as long as it ends up in the right place at the end it can do whatever it wants. 18:10:35 impomatic: The initial swap is done by the interpreter loop I pasted. 18:11:21 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:12:19 this way you get nearly zero dB loss in the 100-500 KHz range, and only negligble dropout thereafter 18:12:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:13:00 catseye: ...yes...what 18:13:26 FireFly, Take my love, take my land 18:13:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:14:08 catseye, wrong channel? 18:14:19 I haven't even seen the series 18:14:34 * Sgeo mindboggles 18:14:47 Sgeo, I haven't seen the series either 18:15:00 Vorpal, you're not named after it, though 18:15:14 Sgeo, uh... His nick is after the insect obviously 18:15:18 (Yes, I know firefly is not just the name of a series) 18:15:44 I started using this nick long before I knew about the series :P 18:15:48 VORPAL THIS IS NEVER THE WRONG CHANNEL 18:15:57 catseye, touche 18:17:23 So, how do I perform esoterica spells? 18:18:01 Sgeo, usually you write a program in Malbolge that outputs an underload program that perform the task 18:18:04 performs* 18:20:57 can anyone refresh my memory: the lambdas in FALSE aren't proper closures, right? If I do like [n;] then change the value stored in n, executing that lambda won't give me the original value of n? 18:21:26 um, that's unrelated to proper closures 18:21:29 (define x 42) 18:21:32 (define f (lambda () x)) 18:21:36 (set! x 24) 18:21:38 (f) => 24 18:21:59 since afaik all false vars are global 18:22:16 catseye: more importantly, it's not a real false unless you support `... :) 18:22:39 "can't properly close over values" then 18:23:18 if you don't have local variables, then of course you can't close over values :) 18:23:32 then, in my book anyway, you don't have closures 18:23:55 but uh, you could close over globals by copying them when constructing the closure 18:24:09 you can do it i'm sure! with `! 18:25:03 somehow i don't get the impression catseye is rushing to implement ` either 18:25:16 dunno why, 68000 emulator in java sounds like fun 18:25:29 oh, you'd also have to require amiga OS files 18:25:31 Catch sufficiently 68000 emulator in Java. 18:25:35 yes. 18:27:24 or, 68000-subset emulator in MBR. An unusually not mephitic project. 18:27:31 I wonder how many instructions you could do. 18:29:24 what's the deal with these "catch sufficiently"? 18:29:50 I don't know. 18:31:55 olsner: they're caught sufficiently 18:31:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 18:32:19 hmm, I'm obviously not catching sufficiently 18:33:03 try catching more sufficiently 18:33:06 an unusually not metphitic task 18:33:17 and while you're at it, enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity! 18:33:18 elliott, wtf is "metphitic"? 18:33:28 elliott, oh are all these from the same source? 18:33:29 olsner: have a nice kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen. 18:33:34 Vorpal: no 18:33:43 elliott, then what is the source of the other two= 18:33:49 s/=/?/ 18:33:52 #esoteric? :) 18:33:54 which other two 18:33:59 those other two --> 18:34:12 elliott, catching sufficiently and metphitic task 18:34:26 former is recent esowiki spammer 18:34:43 i thought that was the latter 18:35:04 it's mephitic, please stop failing at spelling things right in front of you 18:35:06 quite offensive 18:35:11 ;D 18:35:14 WHY CAN'T I DANCE LIKE THE SNOWFLAKES 18:35:55 because society will never accept alternative lifestyles 18:36:01 catseye: you're no snowflake, obviously you can't dance like one 18:36:05 2011-04-01.txt:11:41:30: (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/‎; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins) 18:36:08 so both were spammers. 18:36:13 it's mephitic, please stop failing at spelling things right in front of you <-- I copy pasted your line " an unusually not metphitic task" 18:36:23 oh 18:36:25 *mephitic 18:36:26 shameful of me 18:36:33 elliott, :D 18:36:37 all this discussion from a little typo... 18:36:43 Vorpal: ENJOY BEING LOCKED IN YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY, ASSHOLE 18:36:47 so what does mephitic mean? 18:37:01 miasmic: of noxious stench from atmospheric pollution 18:37:01 wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 18:38:16 sweet, google has word definitions now 18:38:31 impomatic: wanna debug my ugly asm? :D 18:38:37 olsner: "define:x" has existed for years 18:38:39 literally 18:38:41 *mephitic asm 18:39:19 elliott: true, but I don't want to have to remember having to add "define:" 18:39:36 plus you only get crappy definitions with define:x 18:39:37 why does this thing refuse to acknowledge mephitic solidity :/ 18:39:42 im gonna cry 18:39:52 h^@¸^Gh^@<8c>^W¼ÿÿ½^@<80>è1^@1öë^G&Ç^D^@^@FFè-^@èF^@èt^@<83>ÿ^@t^Oh^U|<87>åÿe^D<87>åS<87>åëÜ&Ç^D?^GFFëÓ0À1ÿ¹ ^OóªÃ&fÇ^Do^Gk^G<89>ð³ öó@<^X^?^Eöã<89>ÆÃ1öëÚf1Û0äÍ^V&<88>^DF&Æ^D^GF< u^AÃfÁã^E,@$^_^HÃëâf^Oºë^_,00äkÛ 18:39:53 ^AÃëÒ¿â|f9^]u^AÃ<83>=^@t^E<83>Ç^Fëð1ÿÃ<87>åè´ÿÃ[ÿ7<87>åÃ[<8f>^G<87>åÃX<87>å_P<87>åÿç<87>å_X<87>åPÿçX&<88>^DF&Æ^D^GF<87>åÃ^D}^^^@^@^@»|òQ^@^@Á|²=i^@Ê|4µ^B^@Ó|^\^@^@^@^@^@^@^@µ| 18:39:55 lol how is it still that small 18:39:57 elliott: true, but I don't want to have to remember having to add "define:" <-- the non-crappy ones been around for years too 18:40:01 how :| 18:40:31 elliott: I don't mind having a look for a few minutes. 18:40:40 impomatic: trust me, you don't want to :) 18:40:43 it's unbelievably hideous 18:41:01 I don't mind ugly code. 18:41:01 wtf 18:41:04 removing that dictionary entry fixed it 18:41:13 4+2 is 6 right? just checking 18:42:33 It can't be more ugly than this : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; 18:42:43 ok, sent it in /msg, trade secret after all :P 18:42:46 pertinent comment is at the bottom 18:42:48 hmm, how would you noun mephitic? mephicity? 18:42:49 ; If this is uncommented, then trying to execute @ (= 0) reports "?" 18:42:56 olsner: no, that's the city of Mephi 18:43:06 mephiticity? 18:43:06 sometimes youtube fails badly: [download] 62.1% of 133.44M at 63.31k/s ETA 13:37 18:43:14 impomatic: also, the other things that are commented out are commented out "permanently" 18:43:16 note the video is about 6 minutes 18:43:18 i.e. there are no debug hacks left in this 18:43:23 there is no way that buffering could work here 18:43:28 wait 18:43:29 wtf 18:43:35 oh no wait 18:43:36 nm 18:43:38 i thought it fixed itself 18:43:41 but i forgot to uncomment the dictionary entry 18:43:55 impomatic: basically I _think_ fword is somehow broken 18:44:09 It can't be more ugly than this : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; <-- "DO TUCK OVER AND" look a bit like intercal somehow 18:44:21 PLEASE DO TUCK OVER AND UNDER 18:44:27 it's the DO followed by a bunch of caps, I think 18:44:31 ais523, yep 18:45:44 -!- Zuu has quit. 18:47:07 -!- Zuu has joined. 18:48:33 elliott 18:48:43 You're wanted in #esoteric-minecraft 18:48:58 please say it isn't so 18:49:24 catseye, what isn't so? 18:49:40 anything, doesn't really matter 18:50:39 catseye, ais523 theory about ghosts probably isn't so :P 18:50:43 happy ? 18:51:43 yes 18:51:44 thanks 18:51:49 what theory was that? 18:52:22 involves Feather probably 18:52:38 -!- jcp has joined. 18:52:41 no, just ghosts 18:52:44 shy ghosts 18:58:33 I will summarize: Ghosts are all over the damn place, but they're fucking pussies. 18:58:41 XD 18:58:44 Interpret the last two words in either of the two obvious ways. 19:00:07 catseye, theory: most houses are actually haunted, but by especially shy ghosts who never make their presence known 19:03:16 this combines well with my theory that upon death, the human soul remains on earth but becomes remarkably timid 19:07:00 Sam Hughes has a job now? 19:07:09 I preferred my statement of the "theory" 19:09:48 sam hughes has always had a job ever 19:11:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:11:08 "Sam Hughes (January 18, 1824–April 1, 1898) was the last great ophicleide player and one of the greatest who ever played the instrument in its short history." 19:11:15 yes. 19:11:31 he should set that as his twitter bio :D 19:11:31 but now he's too shy and also non-corporeal so can't 19:13:05 I had not heard of the ophicleide before. That's quite the instrumet. 19:13:08 *instrument 19:14:01 sam hughes has always had a job ever ← what about the constant moaning about him not being able to get a job in the older entries? 19:14:06 well i mean 19:14:09 after time started beganning 19:14:11 he jobbed 19:14:35 Link to his Twitter, BtW? 19:14:41 Meanwhile, internet commentators cannot resist being irritating snooty douchebags: "If I had a choice, I'd take NO beer. If I didn't have a choice, and was faced with the prospect of spending the rest of my life required to drink beer regularly, I'd probably drown myself in the waves." 19:14:53 Phantom_Hoover: http://twitter.com/qntm. He is forgiven for his slander against J THIS ONE TIME. 19:15:51 catseye, now I have to google what "ophicleide" is 19:16:02 Vorpal, it's a weird brass thing. 19:16:15 Phantom_Hoover, and why isn't it played any more? 19:16:56 Because there's only room for so many brass instruments? 19:17:01 "Tau is the Dvorak of trigonometry." 19:17:04 ah fair enough 19:17:08 SAM HUGHES AGREES WITH ME HAH 19:17:16 WHERE IS PIKHQ I MUST GLOAT 19:17:18 Phantom_Hoover, you like Dvorak music? 19:17:34 *facepalm* 19:17:35 Suspiciously plausible hypothesis proposed on Metafilter: Simon Pegg and Nick Frost are Sam Vimes and Fred Colon. 19:17:39 OMFGYESYESYSEYSYEYSEYSYEYSESY 19:17:45 THAT WAS ALSO PROPOSED ON REDIT 19:17:47 *REDDIT 19:17:57 Phantom_Hoover, oh the keyboard layout? 19:18:00 ALSO SHUT UP YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A METAFILTER ACCOUNT 19:20:24 SAM HUGHES AGREES WITH ME HAH 19:20:57 catseye: mathematician, code monkey and hard-science-fiction author, before you possibly ask 19:21:34 Gregor: It's like Evolution of Dance—a collection of kicky songs, just substitute dancing for the tribal drumming of a self-crafted PVC pipe instrument. 19 songs in 8 minutes. [more inside] 19:21:38 Gregor: EVERYTHING PVC IS GREGOR RELATED 19:23:47 I already TOLD you who Sam Hughes was, duh 19:23:52 catseye: SAME GUY 19:25:23 http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/looflirpa/e8d9/ ;; thinkgeek, always like 17 years behind! 19:26:52 -!- augur has joined. 19:26:58 17 years eh? 19:27:04 yes. :P 19:27:37 ouch http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/looflirpa/e8b8/ 19:27:51 I wonder if the images have reached china or some other place stereotypically heartless towards pets and made someone try it for real 19:28:08 lament: yeah well, sometimes a cigar is just a light saber 19:28:14 olsner: WE CAN ONLY HOPE 19:28:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:28:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 19:29:02 I'm pretty sure TA-TK likes me :/ 19:29:44 She called me "babes" (outloud, so I don't know if she'd spell it like that) and "boo" and "swee" (I think that was cut off) 19:31:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:31:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 19:31:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:31:49 I am quite amused by the idea of a shelf in the library coming on to Sgeo. 19:32:12 "TL-UA, on the other hand, won't give me the time of day..." 19:32:20 BOOSWEE 19:32:43 Oh, she said "my sweet" 19:32:48 catseye: Man, you ain't lived til you been with some of dat Dewey decimal material 19:33:30 Wait, since when does "I'm pretty sure likes me" deserve to be followed by the emoticon ":/"? 19:33:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:33:49 depends on who :/ 19:33:56 catseye, since I've come to the conclusion a while ago that she's a boring idiot. 19:34:01 I'm pretty sure Hitler likes me :/ 19:34:01 catseye, well, a bookshelf would be blind and unable to move, so Sgeo would probably be attracted to it anyway. 19:34:02 A lot :/ 19:34:13 Well I would think it would quantize to :) or :( pretty soundly in most cases, is all. 19:34:15 Like, he's proposed to me and everything :/ 19:34:20 elliott: now I'm trying to mentally imagine a cross between :/ and !, interrobang-style 19:34:22 And threatened to kill me if I don't marry him :/ 19:34:29 I am sort of neutral about this :/ 19:34:46 So wait, which one is TA-TK? 19:34:52 Is that KT-AT? 19:34:52 elliott, the "programmer" 19:34:55 Or is another one TA-TK. 19:34:56 I LOSE TRACK. 19:34:59 Another one 19:35:00 Not KT-AT 19:35:12 Someone decided that "Other" was not a good enough moniker 19:37:38 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:37:51 Sgeo: Probably me 19:37:54 HI OKLOPOL 19:37:56 hi. 19:37:57 YOU'RE A MASTER 19:38:02 literlaly loll 19:38:06 ahajhahahaha 19:38:13 HAHHIOAHAHOAIJHAIOJHOEJIJOIJNHSKREJWHDP[Q] 19:38:17 ehheahehehehehehehehehehehaw 19:38:19 se 19:38:25 kjnesfrdldfglvcx 19:38:28 t3q4w5yj6ue4tgqrthyetwrqgthekliuolikurjyeuio'p 19:38:29 r5deio'ple3't0sl5edoP 19:38:29 y'tf'g 19:38:30 hy8ftghgfduiohpjkp'o< 19:39:05 suddenly: oklo 19:40:12 literlaly loll <-- laughing out loudly loud? 19:40:20 * catseye sticks "t3q4w5yj6ue4tgqrthyetwrqgthekliöäuolikurjyeuio'p" into Google Translate 19:40:33 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]). 19:40:42 catseye: its clever for "asljasd" 19:40:42 "Maltese to English translation" 19:41:10 * catseye clicks "Listen"! 19:41:17 catseye, it means "Piranhas in your hovercraft" 19:41:41 "Listen" is not working :( 19:41:59 catseye: it is 19:42:03 catseye: every letter in that sentence is silent 19:42:24 every letter is pronounced as "Google fails to serve content to browser" 19:44:03 yes 19:46:17 hey I found a new "hat" for Gregor! 19:46:23 Uh oh 19:46:31 Gregor, two new 19:46:40 Gregor, http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/hats-ties/beac/ and http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/hats-ties/b53e/ 19:48:06 Wierd spec neither defines the size of values on the stack nor what happens if you try to pop an empty stack. 19:48:31 wow, thinkgeek really makes me hate being alive 19:48:53 `addquote wow, thinkgeek really makes me hate being alive 19:48:58 347) wow, thinkgeek really makes me hate being alive 19:49:29 catseye: why? 19:49:40 catseye, heh 19:50:16 Wierd spec neither defines the size of values on the stack nor what happens if you try to pop an empty stack. 19:50:20 olsner: BECAUSE I HAVE A SOUL, OR I DID, BEFORE I STARTED LOOKING AT THESE PRODUCTS 19:50:30 catseye: just steal a convenient type of values on the stack from TURKEY BOMB 19:50:40 catseye: what's wrong with the products? 19:50:45 Also, Befunge-93 doesn't define what happens if you try to p or g outside of the 80x25 area 19:52:40 Or if someone else tries that either! 19:53:35 catseye: You should implement -98 next ;D 19:53:50 Ooh, ooh, or jumping to -1 is exciting, my old language that NOBODY HAS EVER GIVEN ANY LOVE EVER 19:54:10 elliott: that was yours? 19:54:16 yes 19:54:29 catseye: You should implement -98 next ;D <-- what about the y coordinate issue you found? 19:54:32 ouch 19:54:36 ais523: what? 19:55:38 I'm still not sure whether it's TC or not 19:56:13 I haven't actually looked at it 19:56:15 but the name's painful 19:56:21 Ooh, ooh, or jumping to -1 is exciting, my old language that NOBODY HAS EVER GIVEN ANY LOVE EVER <-- which language? 19:56:27 Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting 19:56:30 the syntax of that "spec" is 19:56:32 elliott, *oh* 19:56:36 command name stack trace -> result 19:56:40 stack track = right-most is top of stack 19:56:47 # is a pick type instruction thing 19:56:48 elliott, *that* was that name 19:56:55 Vorpal: wat 19:57:14 elliott, I searched for "or jumping to -1 is exciting" :P 19:57:37 X-D 19:58:13 Vorpal: what y coordinate issue? 19:58:17 blahbot` in #esoteric can run this. 19:58:21 catseye, sec 19:58:25 I'm implementing Wierd next, btw. 19:58:28 It deserves it 19:58:54 1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env) 19:58:54 1 vector containing the greatest point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the least point (env) 19:58:54 These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file. 19:59:02 catseye, I remember elliott found some issue with that 19:59:07 I forgot the details. Ask him 19:59:28 dude we've been over this 19:59:31 does it really matter :P 19:59:36 I like Wierd, but also SNUSP 19:59:37 elliott, well catseye doesn't know 20:00:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:01:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:01:21 I...that's one of the things FBBI still fails at. It doesn't shrink those bounds if you overwrite the edges with space. 20:01:27 that's not the issue 20:01:32 i realize that 20:01:37 :p 20:01:42 but no one is saying what the issue is 20:01:43 catseye, I think it was something like the way it was written it meant that it wasn't usable by o in fact. 20:01:45 cfunge breaks that too unless you compile it explicitly stating you want it to not be broken 20:01:56 slowdown.b98 was designed to completely screw with that effect, IIRC 20:01:56 catseye: 1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env) 20:01:58 catseye: that's not 20:02:00 elliott, the default is for "not broken" there 20:02:01 catseye: the top-left of the bounding box 20:02:07 catseye: that's the least _occupied_ point 20:02:13 the bounding box could be much bigger 20:02:23 catseye: now, you could say that "these two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction" overrides this, but 20:02:29 catseye: (1) "useful" is subjective, 20:02:29 oh, ok 20:02:33 catseye: (2) that's in italics, 20:02:40 elliott, it isn't 20:02:41 catseye: (3) the other sentences are far more precise than it 20:02:42 no, i'm not saying that 20:02:43 Vorpal: oh 20:02:44 well whatever 20:02:45 anyway 20:02:46 not in http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Sysinfo 20:02:49 slowdown.b98 was designed to completely screw with that effect, IIRC 20:02:54 ais523: no, it's just meant to create a huge fungespace 20:02:57 so that wrapping takes ages 20:03:04 elliott: doesn't it then remove the original program? 20:03:07 or was that something else? 20:03:16 i dunno, i think it's something to do with bounds though :) 20:03:25 that cfunge with bounds shrinking doesn't handle 20:03:27 but ccbi does 20:03:35 (handle = without taking years) 20:04:02 catseye: So is there an official Yoob API for implementing Yoobular Environments? :-P 20:04:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:04:05 I don't plan to fix that in FBBI fwiw. The only thing left that I plan to fix is that it reports that { or something "pushes a strange storage offset" or something, without telling me what it is 20:04:27 elliott: not yet. API still fluid 20:04:37 and stupid 20:04:40 catseye: bah. i'd prefer you locked it into a matrix of solidity!!!! 20:04:42 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA 20:04:52 also are there plans to make the 2d editors more... 2d friendly 20:05:06 not really 20:05:23 at least make them work overwriting, not inserting? 20:05:45 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:06:15 I don't plan to fix that in FBBI fwiw. The only thing left that I plan to fix is that it reports that { or something "pushes a strange storage offset" or something, without telling me what it is <-- "without telling me what it is" is *very* typical of mycology 20:06:43 The main purpose, for now, is to showcase the languages. If you are doing serious editing of programs in the languages, you're free to use an offline editor and copy and paste. (If you want to save your work, you have to do this anyway.) 20:07:42 OK, I have a rudimentary implementation of Wierd, completely untested. I guess that'll be my next step, but... later 20:08:04 Can you up the maximum speed, too? I'm watching this particularly slow program churn. :p 20:08:07 -!- Sadhu788543 has joined. 20:08:07 And if there's a Befunge-111, y will reflect >:) 20:08:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:08:17 elliott: it's on the todo list 20:08:19 Befunge-111 should just specify everything :P 20:08:24 FILE IO IS MANDATORY ... or preferably nonexistent 20:08:37 -!- Sadhu788543 has left. 20:08:53 the spec should just be an implementation... in some horribly underspec'ed language 20:09:09 say, python 20:09:26 yoob's rng sucks. this befunge program will never end. 20:09:28 yes. without giving a version number, too 20:09:36 make it rely on python 1.5 quirks 20:09:36 you're watching anagram, huh 20:09:39 nope 20:09:47 i modified hello to have some stupid directions and then a bunch of ?s 20:09:48 in lines 20:09:49 no? that one takes forever for me 20:09:50 and stuff 20:09:54 so i'm waiting for it to go back to real code 20:09:56 i'm using Java's stock RNG, blame it 20:09:57 rather than just dancing around the ?s 20:09:59 :D 20:10:05 that's why i want a higher max speed :-P 20:10:16 ah, idea: allow you to specify a sequence to be used by the RNG... 20:10:29 * elliott puts a @ in a lone square on the board, surrounded by ?s 20:10:33 GOOD LUCK TERMINATING, PROGRAM 20:13:53 catseye: post hitting @, buttons do not allow me to restart program. they act as if it's still running but stop is greyed out. weird. 20:13:56 but i can edit and press done to fix. 20:14:00 or maybe i'm just sleep-deprived 20:15:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:15:08 hm this time it worked 20:16:23 catseye: also you might want to reverse the stack display 20:16:28 so that you don't have to scroll when the stack gets big 20:18:26 haha, >_ is cool 20:18:31 it holds the @ until it eats up all the stack :) 20:18:33 or gets to a 0 20:18:40 err 20:18:41 not the @ 20:18:42 the ip 20:19:20 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:19:20 reset should totally work after @... if it doesn't then, eh 20:19:26 bugs bugs bugs 20:26:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:27:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:31:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:34:30 catseye: i can't seem to copy output 20:34:55 probably you can't 20:36:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:36:50 hmm, start does nothing, stop does nothing, both leave the program running :) 20:36:58 wait no 20:37:01 run makes it go twice as fast 20:37:03 i am not shitting you 20:37:11 haha 20:37:12 yeah, probably started two execution threads 20:37:17 i hit that once 20:37:33 i have no idea how it gets into the state where that's possible 20:37:48 so, strong-typed languages, eh 20:38:01 so, threads, eh 20:38:17 no specifically i'm now referring to the fact that i can't edit befunge-93 without the applet blanking :D 20:38:35 * elliott tries going through an example rather than the about screen 20:38:50 ... don't use the about screen, then 20:39:04 catseye: then why does it enable the edit button! 20:39:13 you get what you pay for 20:40:16 catseye: btw i think that in -93, ps and gs to x,y coords should be moduloed 20:40:24 at least that makes random programs do more fun things ;D 20:41:08 i think i have a headache :/ 20:41:09 later 20:41:11 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:47:06 -!- zzo38 has left. 20:47:52 run makes it go twice as fast <-- that is so awesome 20:48:09 starts out in walking mode, until you press run 20:48:42 yeah, probably started two execution threads <-- shouldn't that cause sync issues? 20:49:25 olsner, :p 20:49:37 i think i have a headache :/ <-- wait, did you try to implement ais523's Feather? 20:50:10 Vorpal: DON'T INFECT HIM TOO! 20:50:20 Featherfeatherfeather 20:50:49 ais523, :P 20:51:18 ais523, you using caps like that feels so weird. Almost as much as if fizzie would... 20:53:29 dwarf fortress has both "sandy loam" and "loamy sand"... I'm not sure what the difference is as such. 20:53:48 It seems obvious to me. 20:53:55 Phantom_Hoover, oh? 20:54:06 Sandy loam is predominantly loam, loamy sand predominantly sand. 20:54:18 Phantom_Hoover, both however work the same when it comes to in game mechanics 20:55:00 Vorpal: OH NO, IS THIS WEIRD? 20:55:29 fizzie, well it fails, since it is triggered by this specific instance 20:55:36 I mean, you doing it naturally 20:55:41 like elliott does 20:58:04 -!- augur has joined. 20:58:42 Vorpal: 2009-03-09 01:21:53 elliott: WATER MEMORY. 20:58:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:59:09 fizzie, that was more than two years ago! 20:59:15 fizzie, it proves my point 20:59:18 2011-01-22 14:15:17 PURE MADNESSNESS 20:59:19 Vorpal: BUT THE WATER REMEMBERS 20:59:20 BULLDOZER WEASELS 20:59:22 yes you have grown as a person 20:59:31 fizzie, ah... okay 20:59:40 fizzie, you don't do it very often though 20:59:42 fizzie: you fabricated that quote. what pure madnessness. 20:59:54 fizzie: QUICK HOW MANY ALL-CAPS STATEMENTS HAVE I MADE 21:00:06 I WOULD NEVER FABRICATE A QUOTE 21:00:08 Vorpal: There are several instances of one or two full-uppercase things but very few that would have nothing else. 21:00:21 fizzie, it is the nothing else bit that counts 21:00:26 fizzie, well, a nick is allowed 21:00:49 `addquote it is from 2002 though, I was younger then 21:00:53 348) it is from 2002 though, I was younger then 21:01:01 `quote 2002 21:01:02 No output. 21:01:07 `quote olsner 21:01:07 elliott, wait, when did he say that 21:01:08 174) i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 221) DAMN YOU, I'm leaving olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 237) elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are 21:01:15 Vorpal: 2010-11-01 21:01:21 15:44:47 `addquote it is from 2002 though, I was younger then 21:01:23 never got added 21:01:34 " olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!" <-- wait what? 21:01:44 * Vorpal looks 21:01:45 ah 21:02:28 `quote oklopol 21:02:29 37) i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 39) anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list \ 42) i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 55) GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 67) 21:02:40 `pastequotes oklopol 21:02:41 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9627 21:03:41 223) well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy and i own a piano and i'm not wearing socks 21:03:41 poetry 21:03:51 hah 21:04:35 110) oklopol geez what are you doing here ...i don't know :< i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... 21:04:37 heh 21:04:43 elliott, who was fax now again? 21:04:51 that few quotes :o 21:04:55 soupdragon quantumEd MissPiggy j-invariant etc. etc. etc. 21:05:00 no wait 21:05:00 omg 21:05:01 finally 21:05:04 a chance to use the best latin 21:05:05 i thought there were many quotes of me 21:05:05 *et alia 21:05:07 eh? 21:05:08 oklopol: there are 21:05:10 `pastequote olsner 21:05:11 No output. 21:05:12 oklopol: because yours are all the best 21:05:15 Vorpal: pastequotes 21:05:15 what 21:05:18 ah 21:05:21 elliott: so that was not all? 21:05:21 `pastequotes olsner 21:05:22 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10188 21:05:32 oklopol: that was all. they were best. 21:05:35 elliott, "348) it is from 2002 though, I was younger then" is there 21:05:38 `pastequotes ehird|elliott|alise 21:05:40 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1469 21:05:47 wooo 21:05:50 i'm the master of the quotes 21:05:54 elliott, the issue is that `quote 2002 looks for *quote number 2002* 21:05:54 but that's so few, i thought there'd be at least 10 more 21:05:58 Vorpal: o rite :D 21:06:00 `quote (2002) 21:06:01 348) it is from 2002 though, I was younger then 21:06:10 oklopol: well keep saying funny things 21:06:15 elliott, regex? 21:06:18 Vorpal: yes 21:06:20 19) ehird has gone insane, clearly. 21:06:21 right 21:06:21 err 21:06:23 am i missing something 21:06:25 i don't get the jok 21:06:26 e 21:06:41 `pastequotes 21:06:42 i guess i'll have to get depressed another day 21:06:42 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27220 21:06:43 elliott, yeah it doesn't seem funny at all. Just a matter of fact. :P 21:06:46 (only want quotes actually directed at me) 21:06:55 anyone mind if i remove it, we have Standards 21:06:58 oklopol: does depressed=funny? 21:07:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:07:10 `pastequotes <(ehird|elliott|alise)> 21:07:11 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10749 21:07:20 actually i thought depressed = not funny, but then i realized oerjan is all about jokes 21:07:26 `pastequotes <(ehird|elliott|alise)> 21:07:27 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2939 21:07:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:07:30 `quote oklopol 21:07:31 not that he's all that funny 21:07:31 37) i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 39) anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list \ 42) i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 55) GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 67) 21:07:35 why is this not working 21:07:36 WHY 21:07:37 WHYYYYY 21:07:41 `pastequotes \<(ehird|elliott|alise)\> 21:07:42 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13301 21:07:46 not that he's all that funny <-- is he depressed? 21:07:47 `quote lawl 21:07:48 85) <@Lawlabee> Why does Monday start at 10PM on Sunday? \ 94) hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows 'cuz it's pretty awesome. \ 95) [Warrigal] `addquote hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( \ 112) Making a small shrine to Lawlabee 21:07:52 tswett: protip pastequotes 21:07:54 (WHEN IT WORKS) 21:07:56 Vorpal: 21:08:02 `quote <(ehird|elliott|alise)> 21:08:03 No output. 21:08:06 `quote <(ehird|elliott|alise).*> 21:08:06 oklopol, yes? 21:08:07 No output. 21:08:07 Okay. 21:08:11 `quote 112 21:08:12 No output. 21:08:12 112) Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point. 21:08:14 `quote || 21:08:15 No output. 21:08:17 :| 21:08:20 `quote 21:08:21 No output. 21:08:23 `quote 21:08:24 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:08:24 No output. 21:08:24 Why did I say that? 21:08:29 `quote \ 21:08:29 No output. 21:08:37 No output. <-- you what 21:08:39 i should prolly go to work 21:08:39 `quote [<]elliott[>] 21:08:40 No output. 21:08:46 oisdjosidjfoisjfsjfosijdfoisjdfiojdofjisf 21:08:47 oisjfosdjf 21:08:47 soijf 21:08:47 soifj 21:08:50 `url bin/quote 21:08:51 okokokokokoko 21:08:52 okokokoko 21:08:52 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote 21:08:53 okoko 21:08:54 o 21:09:04 Whuff whuff whuff wharrgarbl. 21:09:06 `ls 21:09:09 babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine \ quotes \ test \ test.c \ tmpdir.19865 21:09:11 `run egrep -i "<(elliott|alise|ehird)>" quotes 21:09:12 so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers \ IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): 21:09:21 `run allquotes | egrep -i "<(elliott|alise|ehird)>" | paste 21:09:23 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4003 21:09:29 tada 21:09:38 `ls bin 21:09:39 addquote \ allquotes \ botsnack \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ delquote \ esolang \ etymology \ fuck \ google \ imdb \ json \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ penis \ ping \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ rungcc \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate 21:09:46 `penis 21:09:47 I'm a program. I don't /have/ genitals. 21:09:47 elliott, why didn't it work? 21:09:51 Vorpal: god knows 21:09:55 -!- sftp has joined. 21:09:55 it's raining! 21:09:58 elliott, should be debugged? 21:10:04 What is babies? 21:10:29 `whatis 21:10:30 whatis what? 21:10:34 hah 21:10:36 `whatis babies 21:10:37 No output. 21:10:41 `man ed! ed man 21:10:42 No output. 21:10:42 well there, you know 21:10:47 tswett: babies is little human 21:10:48 `whatis love 21:10:49 No output. 21:10:50 `baby dont hurt me 21:10:51 No output. 21:10:54 `dont hurt me 21:10:54 No output. 21:10:55 `nomore 21:10:56 `cat babies 21:10:56 No output. 21:10:56 `whatis whatis 21:10:57 No output. 21:10:58 No output. 21:11:05 `type whatis 21:11:06 No output. 21:11:06 I'm not sure `cat actually works. 21:11:12 `type babies 21:11:12 No output. 21:11:27 `run type whatis 21:11:27 elliott: I think you get a syntax error from if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ] . 21:11:28 whatis is /usr/bin/whatis 21:11:33 `run whatis whatis 21:11:33 No output. 21:11:34 why 21:11:40 Gregor, why doesn't whatis work? 21:11:59 Because it hates you. 21:12:00 `run bin/quote '' 2>&1 21:12:01 bin/quote: line 3: +0: syntax error: operand expected (error token is "+0") \ /usr/bin/nl: write error: Broken pipe 21:12:04 See, like that. 21:12:05 Gregor, no man pages installed? 21:12:11 No. 21:12:14 fizzie: WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULD FIX IT SMARTARSE :| 21:12:20 fizzie: (thx for finally finding the elusive bug) 21:12:31 fizzie: I propose "sed", it's how I wrote the thing after all. Well, that and echo. 21:12:50 Mayhaps $(("$1"+0)) would suffice? 21:13:02 why do you need the +0? 21:13:37 to see if it's a numbra 21:13:44 ah 21:13:47 `run echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0) 21:13:48 No output. 21:13:48 `run echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0)) 21:13:49 No output. 21:13:52 `run echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0)) 2>&1 21:13:53 No output. 21:13:58 `run bash -c 'echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0))' 2>&1 21:13:59 /bin/bash: "nozzles >-4"+0: syntax error: operand expected (error token is ""nozzles >-4"+0") 21:14:14 I don't actually know how it manages to work for most non-numbers. 21:14:19 `url bin/quote 21:14:19 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote 21:14:20 fizzie: It doesn't. 21:14:49 elliott, use bash regex match 21:15:17 `run sed -i 's/if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ]; then/if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote 21:15:18 No output. 21:15:27 darn, didn't replace 21:15:37 `run sed -i 's/if \[ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" \]; then/if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote 21:15:38 No output. 21:15:52 `run sed -i 's/if \[ "$\(\($1+0\)\)" = "$1" \]; then/if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote 21:15:53 elliott, you fail at sed 21:15:53 No output. 21:15:54 ESCAPE EVERYTHING 21:15:56 what if i had like an epileptic fit and tried to get help here, i bet you bastards would just let me die 21:16:00 oklopol: yep 21:16:01 elliott, $ needs to be escaped 21:16:09 i hate you 21:16:12 i knew it 21:16:21 erm switch those 21:16:24 `run sed -i 's/ if.*/ if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote 21:16:25 No output. 21:16:30 wtf 21:16:32 how did that not work 21:16:38 oh 21:16:39 dur 21:16:46 `run sed -i 's! if.*! if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then!' bin/quote 21:16:47 No output. 21:17:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:17:01 `run bin/quote '' 2>&1 21:17:02 229) Vorpal loves the sodomy. elliott, sure why not \ 230) [...] ALWAYS OPEN TO TRYING NEW THINGS. \ 231) So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] It's a trivial C program :P \ 239) ONLY GOOD QUOTES PLEASE! AND NO FAKE ONES EITHER! \ 240) * pikhq sticks 21:17:05 YAY 21:17:09 elliott: I love your HackEgo-editing style. 21:17:11 `quote trivial C 21:17:11 231) So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] It's a trivial C program :P 21:17:12 Gregor: I DO TOO 21:17:24 Gregor: It makes me feel so manly, 'cuz you know what, I could do that on an actual teletypewriter. 21:17:31 Well, with a live "cat" window :P 21:17:43 It makes me feel so 70S. 21:18:27 elliott: it's trivial, but not exactly trivial 21:18:40 let's find out how profane we are! 21:18:50 `pastequotes shit|fuck|crap|dammit|damn 21:18:51 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8277 21:18:58 (Worst list of top-of-head curses ever.) 21:19:03 I wonder if you could get a current going in a ring shaped super-conductor 21:19:04 poopie 21:19:06 answer: not as profane as i thought 21:19:09 `quote poopie 21:19:10 No output. 21:19:14 RECTIFICATION REQUIRED 21:19:19 `addq... no, i can't 21:19:20 No output. 21:19:24 it would just be too low 21:19:49 280) ooh I want to see ehird pole dancing I think that would be illegal. oh you are right damn :/ 21:19:49 i still have no idea what that was about 21:20:00 elliott, nor do I 21:20:02 also, i think the best feature of my quote system is that whenever you delete a quote 21:20:08 every quote after it gets renumbered 21:20:10 it's wonderfully confusing! 21:20:16 elliott, that is like the worst thing 21:20:23 the best thing 21:20:28 it's the most Unixy way to implement it ;DDD 21:20:39 elliott, lets agree on the middle ground 21:20:44 it is the most thing 21:20:47 deep 21:20:49 why do they even have numbers? 21:20:52 elliott, thanks 21:21:00 ais523: umm...because...err...fuck you 21:21:06 mostly for seeing the whole thing in search results i think :D 21:21:18 i read that as "why do they have even numbers" 21:21:25 thought it was a philosophical question 21:21:42 i guess it could've been philosophical as it is 21:21:52 why even do they numbers have? 21:22:26 wombats 21:22:29 wombats have countries! 21:23:14 ais523: quick, say something funny 21:23:24 something funny hagrea:D 21:23:29 can't sopt laughitn 21:23:32 err, I can't think of anything funny to say right now 21:23:41 but I'll retroactively edit the above line to be funny when I get Feather working 21:23:52 ais523: i'm going to addquote that now 21:24:00 ais523: soon you will learn not to say unfunny things! 21:24:03 my feather joke the other day was way better than that 21:24:08 oklopol: indeed, that isn't funny 21:24:10 `addquote ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:24:11 349) ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:24:13 Failed to record changes. 21:24:14 but it will be eventually! 21:24:16 another oklopol quote -- aiee! 21:24:18 `addquote ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:24:19 349) ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:24:20 Failed to record changes. 21:24:23 Gregor: ENCODING SHIT 21:24:24 that was not very good :D 21:24:28 `addquote ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:24:28 349) ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:24:30 Failed to record changes. 21:24:30 it wasn't even a joke man 21:24:32 Gregor: FFFF 21:24:34 Gregor: DEFAIL IT 21:24:47 Argh, what have you done here 21:25:07 Gregor: oklopol uses latin-1, BUT 21:25:11 I retyped out the second try by hand 21:25:14 so that was utf-8 21:25:29 `addquote ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:25:30 349) ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:25:31 Failed to record changes. 21:25:33 yeah 21:25:37 teh b0rk3lde 21:25:47 That's odd, the repo seems to be fine >_> 21:25:58 okay that thing is getting funnier by the minute 21:25:59 elliott: "borkelde"? 21:26:03 I didn't just override that quote because I hate oklopol <_< 21:26:23 And I'm not just doing this out of my badly-concealed lust for him >_> 21:26:27 <_< >_> 21:26:33 olsner: yes. 21:26:42 I didn't just override that quote because I hate oklopol <_< <-- whaaat? 21:26:46 oklopol: look at the kinda things gregor says in teh /msgss! ^^ 21:26:48 you made that up right? 21:26:51 Vorpal: NO 21:26:54 and not the lust parts either 21:26:56 it's all true 21:26:59 elliott, log link 21:27:04 like i said 21:27:04 /msg 21:27:10 ah well 21:27:19 and i use a vt100 so i can't take a screenshot SORRY 21:27:20 elliott, I don't believe it, until confirmed from Gregor 21:27:29 like he'd admit his true desires :( 21:27:34 when all this time he's learned to bottle them away 21:27:36 suuure 21:27:37 you don't believe Gregor wants to have sex with me? 21:27:43 oklopol, nope 21:27:48 eh 21:27:50 yeah doesn't every straight male want to have sex with oklopol 21:27:51 ...wait 21:27:55 `run echo nicode! > test 21:27:55 No output. 21:27:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:57 Failed to record changes. 21:28:01 wtfbbq ... 21:28:13 `run echo bork bork bоrk >test 21:28:14 No output. 21:28:15 Failed to record changes. 21:28:17 Gregor: ... 21:28:26 O_O 21:28:27 `run echo bork bork bork >test 21:28:28 No output. 21:28:35 Gregor: JUST FUCKING WITH YOU, that was a Cyrillic o 21:28:35 whaaat 21:28:38 ;D 21:28:42 oh 21:28:43 elliott: Jackass :P 21:28:46 `rm test 21:28:47 actually i do know a straight male who wants to have sex with me 21:28:47 No output. 21:28:50 OH, I know what the issue is. 21:29:01 oklopol: he's just (hetero+oklo)sexual amirite 21:29:52 `run echo nicode! > test 21:29:53 No output. 21:29:56 `cat test 21:29:57 nicode! 21:29:58 i haven't asked in detail, because he's a random internet dude 21:30:29 `rm test 21:30:29 No output. 21:30:34 `addquote ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:30:35 349) ais523: quick, say something funny something funny hagrea:D can'tä sopt laughitn 21:30:57 whaat: 07:62/05:34 21:31:02 I think vlc is broken 21:31:21 that happens a lot with inaccurate files 21:31:23 and that second counter is counting up. At second rate. 21:31:23 file formats 21:31:25 what file format is it? 21:31:29 elliott, flac... 21:31:32 hmm 21:31:38 elliott, the file must be broken 21:31:40 i think flac _does_ include such precise information, but it can get messed up 21:31:41 yeah 21:31:44 flac -d and reencode 21:31:52 elliott, but 07:62 21:31:57 I mean, the 62 bit 21:31:59 oh 21:31:59 come on 21:32:00 lol :D 21:32:05 Vorpal: well vlc sucks and stuff :) 21:32:22 elliott, yeah re-encoding atm 21:32:44 elliott, mplayer is rather annoying. And totem doesn't play a lot of stuff 21:32:44 incidentally arch seem to have made their first good decision lately :) 21:32:50 and xine is hideous 21:32:51 to not consider switching to the libav fork 21:33:01 elliott, what libav fork? 21:33:08 background for those who haven't been following: a group of ffmpeg devs were unhappy with the maintainer 21:33:14 so they literally tried to perform a coup d'etat 21:33:21 they changed the repo url, the project leaders, etc. on the website 21:33:23 from underneath the maintainer 21:33:27 ouch 21:33:28 this understandably cause a lot of upset 21:33:37 what did the maintainer do? 21:33:39 so after about two months of the hostility of two factions sharing the same list 21:33:49 the coup d'etatters (THAT'S A WORD) decided to "rename" ffmpeg 21:33:51 to libav 21:33:59 so they posted a name saying our "new release" is under the "new name" libav 21:34:04 then -- and this is where it gets insane -- 21:34:10 they say the mailing list is being "renamed and moved" 21:34:14 wait, it is already insane 21:34:14 and so the ffmpeg list will be "shut down shortly" 21:34:18 and you will be automatically subscribed to the libav list 21:34:24 that ffmpeg list was STILL BEING USED by the original maintainers 21:34:24 elliott, ... that's silly 21:34:26 and developers 21:34:32 Vorpal: more than silly, it's childish and bullshit 21:34:36 yes 21:34:37 a gentoo dev was one of the forkers, FWIW 21:34:50 elliott, I NO LONGER USE GENTOO! 21:34:51 Vorpal: anyway, fabrice bellard controls the DNS and so handed it back to the original maintainer 21:34:54 ;D 21:35:02 elliott, that name is familiar 21:35:08 umm, qemu and ffmpeg founder 21:35:11 and tcc author 21:35:13 ah yes 21:35:13 and god 21:35:21 what, same guy? 21:35:31 it seems like the original maintainer caused some problems but at most that justifies a fork, not a failed hostile takeover followed by trying to systematically shut down the original project's resources 21:35:31 olsner: yes 21:35:40 olsner, yes he is one of those awesome guys. Like djb 21:35:41 olsner: also discoverer of bellard's formula for pi 21:35:52 and jwz 21:35:55 (wp says 43% faster than BBP) 21:35:59 elliott: lucky guy, discovering something that had his name on it! 21:36:04 also multiple time IOCCC winner 21:36:08 olsner: :D 21:36:59 Vorpal: anyway yeah, there was a thread on the arch forums (i idly browse every now and then out of morbid curiosity) and one of the devs basically said "i don't like forks so we're not going to consider it" :P 21:37:12 thus, i eagerly look forward to arch replacing xorg with xfree86 21:37:20 elliott, har har 21:37:29 BLEEDING EDGE 21:37:32 elliott, what was the original dispute about? 21:37:40 okay bye -> 21:37:44 Vorpal: the maintainer being a pain about applying patches basically 21:37:48 single point of control, etc. 21:37:52 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:38:00 elliott, ah... Could be time to fork yes, but in a less childish way 21:38:03 but i don't find it very relevant; i can't really sympathise with them considering the childishness 21:38:16 Vorpal: afaict they didn't even bother trying to have a serious discussion about it first 21:38:17 -!- aloril has joined. 21:38:23 elliott, *whops* 21:38:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:39:38 Vorpal: seriously though, as a GENTOO USER (;D;D;D), why did they drop support for static linking> 21:39:40 *linking? 21:39:49 if i could tell gentoo to statically link everything with musl i might even use it :-D 21:39:56 elliott, musl? 21:40:02 elliott, anyway I have no idea 21:40:05 http://www.etalabs.net/musl/ 21:40:12 elliott, besides wasn't it just a few packages that supported it? 21:40:26 Vorpal: i think you used to be able to build a whole static system? 21:40:39 anyway gentoo doesn't really have any merits if you can't control every variable of the system :) 21:40:51 elliott, with some CFLAGS hacking probably 21:41:01 (considering that "this optimisation flag" vs. "this other optimisation flag" doesn't even count as a variable due to being irrelevant) 21:41:05 elliott, there were some static use-flags before I know 21:41:14 (every (32-bit x86) debian package runs on a 386!) 21:41:27 (don't see people going around claiming debian is slow :)) 21:41:33 though maybe they do and i just haven't run into them 21:41:39 elliott, libc comes in multiple variants though 21:41:43 don't those people all use gentoo? 21:42:00 Vorpal: uh? not ereally 21:42:08 just libc6-i386 here, oh wait this is the 64-bit repo 21:42:09 s 21:42:14 elliott, yes, cmov one 21:42:15 the kernel comes in multiple flavours too 21:42:17 and non-cmov 21:42:17 386... 21:42:18 and 486 21:42:19 :D 21:42:30 elliott, well yeah that's debian... 21:42:32 hmm, there might be a 686 too 21:42:34 yeah i think there is 21:42:40 yep 21:42:41 686 21:42:43 386, 486, 686 21:42:49 elliott, and some stuff do CPU detection. Like mplayer 21:43:05 elliott, point is that cpu generation only matters in a handful of places 21:43:13 hmm, "autoconf standard" is -O2 -g right? 21:43:18 Yes 21:43:20 elliott, I have no idea 21:43:34 i guess 90% of debian is -O2 -g -march=i386 then :) 21:43:48 Quite probably. 21:43:49 elliott, *probably* also -mtune=generic these days 21:43:54 well right 21:44:03 elliott, which helps to some degree 21:44:13 Actually I thought they made a dangerous decision to go all the way to i486 at some point :P 21:44:14 imo -Os -march=i386 -mtune=generic would be a better choice nowadays 21:44:29 don't -march and -mtune contradict? 21:44:29 (nobody uses the debugging info, and the space savings from not having it + the savings from -Os = cache loves you) 21:44:32 elliott, probably -march=i686 actually 21:44:41 Vorpal: i meant, without breaking compatibility 21:44:43 Gregor: GASP 21:44:47 elliott, the debugging info is split out into separate debugging packages 21:44:48 ais523: Not all -march options conflict with all -mtune options. 21:44:49 as in, -mtune implies "portable to all processors in the group" 21:44:52 don't -march and -mtune contradict? <-- no 21:44:53 Gregor: hmm, interesting 21:44:56 Gregor: well it's still advertised as i386 and you can still install a 386 kernel 21:45:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:45:01 so i doubt they made that GIGANTIC LEAP 21:45:04 elliott: Well, cancel that then. 21:45:23 elliott, debugging info for libc = invaluable 21:45:30 ok for libraries yes :-D 21:45:40 but apart from like... emacs 21:45:41 I like having debug info around 21:45:45 nobody runs system binaries under gdb 21:45:45 OK, IWC has finally confused the hell out of me. 21:45:54 ais523: hmm 21:45:55 I'd hate to run emacs under gdb 21:46:00 I have literally no idea what the overriding plot threads have been since... forever. 21:46:02 Vorpal: some people do it 100% of the time 21:46:07 ais523: is debugging info stored inline with code, or is it separated? 21:46:13 if the latter, then I guess it won't affect the cache 21:46:13 elliott, separated 21:46:20 then -Os -g would be the best choice, I guess 21:46:24 elliott, separate files even these days 21:46:27 I told you above 21:46:34 Vorpal: that might be the best idea, have -dbg packages 21:46:34 ubuntu does it that way at least 21:46:36 * Phantom_Hoover → sleeop 21:46:37 that install into /usr/dbg 21:46:39 or whatever 21:46:39 Also sleep 21:46:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 21:46:56 elliott, paths look like /usr/lib/debug/bin/bash iirc 21:47:01 * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric 21:47:03 MINUTES LATER 21:47:04 * Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit) 21:47:18 Vorpal: right, well, that's what you get for refusing to extend the fhs 21:47:31 elliott, :D 21:47:59 IF WE MAKE /USR/DBG HOW WILL THE ENTERPRISES EVER TRUST THE UBUNTUS AS THE STANDARDS COMPLIANCES 21:49:19 so what IS it with airline food^W^Wtiling wms 21:49:59 airline food's been pretty good IME 21:50:12 although admittedly I've only been on four flights, and get very annoyed at having to use plane travel 21:50:30 and in no case did I pay for the flight myself, if I'd had to do that I'd have refused outright 21:50:46 did Gregor give up on libc.so? 21:50:59 I refuse to speak of it in this channel. 21:51:08 Well, attempt to refuse anyway. 21:51:16 haha 21:51:20 great way to fail not speaking of it :D 21:51:59 hey Gregor 21:52:01 libc.so 21:52:01 Gregor, did you win libm.so? 21:52:02 libc.so 21:52:03 libc.so 21:52:09 ais523: i didn't say anything about airline food! 21:52:12 i asked about tiling wms 21:52:21 I refuse to speak of the DETAILS OF THE AUCTION, not the domain itself X_X 21:52:27 Vorpal: Didn't even try. 21:52:32 Gregor, oh 21:52:33 Gregor: Is it $800 21:52:35 Gregor: Is it $900 21:52:37 Gregor: Is it $1000 21:52:41 (Binary search setup phase) 21:52:58 (RIP Yhc!) 21:53:03 It is a numeric, integer value greater than 0. 21:53:14 $7000 then. 21:53:19 "Numeric" is redundant here, and "integer greater than 0" could be replaced by "whole number" :P 21:56:41 elliott, musl looks great 21:57:34 Vorpal: it is 21:57:46 Vorpal: only C.UTF-8 locale support now, but that's being worked on 21:58:08 missing C99 math functions and POSIX priority scheduling options. Damn 21:58:10 XD 21:58:33 bah, why would anyone need anything else than C.UTF-8 locale 21:58:47 Vorpal: C99 math is being worked on :P 21:59:03 Vorpal: Surprisingly enough some things actually use it X-D 21:59:09 elliott, anyway the locale stuff is a show stopper 21:59:10 e.g. an mpfr testcase I think refused to compile becuase of the lack of... 21:59:12 roundbyint or something. 21:59:17 elliott, I don't want silly C locale date 21:59:37 Vorpal: No it's not a show-stopper. 21:59:41 It's an incredibly minor thing that is being added. 21:59:41 elliott, for me it is 21:59:57 Yes, well, 3 April 2011 3 April 2011 3 April 2011. 22:00:19 $ date 22:00:19 sön apr 3 23:59:41 CEST 2011 22:00:33 Yes. Because seeing "3 April 2011" instead of "sön apr 3" affects your entire computing experience. 22:00:42 that is very weird order too I think 22:00:44 in date outout 22:00:46 output* 22:01:00 Yes it is, which is why that locale sucks : 22:01:00 :P 22:01:05 DAY OF WEEK IS IRRELEVANT. LITTLE ENDIAN IS IRRELEVANT. SUBMIT TO THE ISO. 22:01:25 tLC_ADDRESS="sv_SE.UTF-8" 22:01:26 LC_TELEPHONE="sv_SE.UTF-8" 22:01:26 LC_MEASUREMENT="sv_SE.UTF-8" 22:01:31 I wonder where those are actually used 22:01:41 LC_PAPER="sv_SE.UTF-8" 22:01:43 that too 22:01:49 presumably that selects A4? 22:02:01 In Sweden they use Q12 instead of A4. 22:02:08 Gregor, Q12? 22:02:10 It's measured in fractions of furlongs. 22:02:18 Gregor, per fortnight! 22:02:22 also anyone who sets LC_foo to get /error messages/ and the like in non-English is clearly in need of institutionalisation more than locale support 22:02:25 yes the speed of the papoer 22:02:26 paper* 22:02:30 is what matters 22:02:34 The width is conventionally given in terms of oxtails, but standardized as fractions of furlongs. 22:02:57 elliott, I do this: 22:03:03 LANG=sv_SE.UTF-8 22:03:06 LC_COLLATE=C 22:03:08 LC_MESSAGES=C 22:03:11 :P 22:03:19 Vorpal: =C? 22:03:23 elliott, yes? 22:03:27 =en_GB.UTF8 or something would provide more reasonable output 22:03:36 especially for collation 22:03:42 elliott: =C guarantees that the bug reports are in the same language that the author wrote it in. 22:03:43 elliott, I wish C.UTF8 worked with glibc 22:03:58 elliott, I do not want messed up sorting 22:04:00 Gregor: "I'm sorry, you said -ise instead of -ize, WONTFIX" 22:04:03 elliott, I want CASE SENSITIVE sort 22:04:08 Vorpal: Define messed up... 22:04:11 ASCIIbetal isn't logical :P 22:04:19 elliott, I prefer that one! 22:04:28 elliott: More like "I am not having good with English, can please error messages with original Portuguese thanks." 22:04:59 Gregor, I would go insane at a program doing that! 22:04:59 Gregor: That's a great argument NOT to use =C, I don't fucking know Portuguese :P 22:05:17 elliott: Also, I wouldn't WONTFIX a bug for -ise instead of -ize, but I would for zed instead of zee :P 22:05:35 Really though, a FOSS project with a lead developer not competent in English is also known as a trainwreck :P 22:05:46 True 22:05:54 Yeah yeah cultural imperialism, I don't give a shit, the Bible was right, language divisions are a curse. 22:06:00 That was the Bible right. 22:06:03 Gregor: pls to change "prized" to "prizee"? 22:06:09 prizee :D 22:06:12 best word 22:06:29 as opposed to "prised", ofc 22:06:51 you can prizee my spellings from my cold dead hands 22:07:34 ais523: DONE 22:11:29 elliott, you realise valgrind won't work on statically linked code? 22:11:41 onoezes!!!111 22:11:43 or at least I don't think it will 22:11:50 Anyway I plan to dynlink with musl for kitten 22:11:52 nope, it won't 22:11:57 elliott, you do? 22:12:02 he's working on a dynamic loader that's embedded in the libc itself 22:12:04 not separate 22:12:07 so there's 0 overhead 22:12:15 so i'll dynlink libc only 22:12:18 ah 22:12:38 elliott, why not work on @ instead? 22:12:47 who said i was working on kitten 22:13:02 well not right now... 22:13:21 can hardly work on @ if i don't have a nice tiling wm can i 22:13:29 elliott, sure you can 22:13:34 no i can't 22:13:39 elliott, okay so write one then 22:13:51 i thought you said i shouldn't work on kitten 22:14:02 elliott, oh but run it on ubuntu :P 22:14:10 anyway i'm going to try out i3 soon. maybe 22:16:00 night → 22:23:18 How many bits would you need if you were doing fourier transforms with fixed point? 22:25:25 depends on how accurate you'd want the answer to be 22:26:50 It should be accurate enough that if you do forward and then reverse on a picture, you should get the same picture, or one very close to the same. 22:27:40 zzo38: same as the number of bits as the picture, then 22:28:03 e.g. if the picture uses 8-bit color, you need 8-bit transforms 22:29:01 Would that be enough? If you are doing real/imaginary instead of amplitude/phase, I mean. 22:29:39 you use a different algorithm, I think 22:29:53 look up about algorithsm for doing discrete cosine transforms 22:29:58 which is the fixed-point version of the fft 22:30:54 I know I have found the code for two-dimensional FFT, it uses floating point anthough square root is the only special function used, the others are only multiplication and division. 22:31:13 I vaguely recall that fixed-point FFT needs some care in scaling the numbers during the processing, to avoid large inaccuracies. 22:33:37 METAFONT has careful division to ensure not overflow in a 32-bit fixed point, TeXnicard uses the same algorithm but for 64-bit numbers instead. 22:34:03 In the FFT I found, the square root is only used for the sa = sqrt((1.0 - ca) / 2.0); 22:34:04 I guess if anyone's done jpeg en/decoding on architectures without floating point, they'll have solved this problem 22:34:08 and ca = sqrt((1.0 + ca) / 2.0); 22:34:36 or DCT anyway, not necessarily FFT 22:35:52 And the value of sa and ca are initialized ca=-1.0 and sa=0.0 with nothing else ever changing ca 22:38:26 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:40:41 I have made a graph of it 22:56:12 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:56:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:58:59 If I want to add image manipulation into TeXnicard, how many (monochrome) bitmap registers and how many graymap registers should I have? 23:00:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:32:52 -!- pumpkin has joined. 23:33:28 -!- lament_ has joined. 23:34:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:35:12 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 23:35:46 whoa 23:35:49 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:49 -!- lament has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:50 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:54 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:54 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:56 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 23:35:57 this is the earliest i've ever seen elliott leave 23:35:59 -!- tswett has joined. 23:36:20 -!- Zuu has joined. 23:36:21 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 23:36:21 -!- Zuu has joined. 23:37:58 quintopia: But he ping-timeout'd, not quit. 23:38:51 i don't think it's a problem with his connection 23:39:15 i bet he just unplugged his computer because he was fed up with us 23:39:56 -!- variable has joined. 23:40:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:40:45 -!- variable has changed nick to Guest26140. 23:40:52 -!- Ilari has joined. 23:43:19 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:21 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:51:56 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:51:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:52:36 -!- lament_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:53:11 -!- lament has joined. 23:53:26 -!- rodgort has joined. 23:53:56 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:58:28 -!- Slereah has joined. 2011-04-04: 00:04:04 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:04:07 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:04:18 -!- coppro has joined. 00:07:39 -!- SimonRC has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:07:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:07:47 -!- SimonRC has joined. 00:16:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:21:47 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:22:00 -!- azaq23 has joined. 00:28:40 Gregor, :(:( 00:36:34 I feel guilty for not donating now 00:38:39 -!- javawizard has joined. 00:38:45 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:38:47 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:38:47 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp. 00:38:53 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:38:54 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:38:57 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 00:39:23 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:40:54 -!- Guest26140 has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed). 00:40:58 -!- pingveno has joined. 00:41:14 -!- variable has joined. 00:42:33 -!- augur has joined. 00:53:33 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:53:47 Let's 'patamagic. And also 'pataprogramming. 00:54:34 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:54:40 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:54:40 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 00:54:40 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:54:43 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:57:00 -!- olsner has joined. 00:58:41 Hay! I did not receive NickServ and ChanServ notices immediately, it took a few seconds after I joined, and then those notices are on. 00:58:45 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:01:56 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:12:09 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:28:04 I added all of the spell/feats in gopher too, now it is not limited to HTTP only. 01:28:13 (You can still access on HTTP as well) 01:31:15 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to hypnotoad. 01:31:23 -!- hypnotoad has changed nick to copumpkin. 01:32:11 Do you like this spell? 01:35:02 Are you sure? 01:38:19 Do you sure? 01:49:10 I want to cast the spell called "Break Into Debugger" (Sor/Wiz 9) 01:49:19 Welp, looks like I'll be taking dlsym@libdl.so as second prize :P 01:50:40 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: I wish I had something witty to put here...). 01:50:58 Gregor: Did you lose libc.so so you put libdl.so instead? Or, is something else? 01:51:09 I already had libdl.so 01:51:18 But yes, I will not be getting libc. 01:51:42 OK. 01:52:01 who got libc 01:52:03 Now are you going to sue everyone on this channel because you did not get libc? 02:07:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: create a file in your home directory called "README"--and have the file contain the words: README: No such file or directory). 02:15:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:21:25 why is this not working 02:22:38 yeah `quote is buggy with actual regexes. i've known for a while but i have nowhere near enough understanding of shell escaping to fix it. 02:23:08 (i assume the passing through shell breaks it.) 02:23:48 or i vaguely recall, it may be that test for a number which did something screwy 02:24:20 delving into even more obscure shell details. 02:26:14 in other news, i should learn to read the rest of log before commenting. 02:26:33 (WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT'S NOT NEWS) 02:27:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:27:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:30:15 -!- azaq23 has joined. 02:34:35 elliott: "borkelde"? 02:34:44 ancient norse goddess of mayhem 02:35:36 Just received IM Spam 02:35:45 It used the praise.hm URL shortener... 02:51:41 Now are you going to sue everyone on this channel because you did not get libc? 02:51:59 no use suing people who are too poor to contribute, is there. 02:52:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: create a file in your home directory called "README"--and have the file contain the words: README: No such file or directory). 02:52:30 cute. 02:53:14 -!- augur has joined. 02:55:25 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 02:55:28 -!- nooga has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:05 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:06 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:10 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:11 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:14 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 03:01:14 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 03:04:48 -!- augur has joined. 03:04:51 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest20296. 03:05:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:05:07 -!- variable has joined. 03:05:07 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:05:07 -!- Vorpal has joined. 03:05:07 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 03:05:07 -!- fungot has joined. 03:05:07 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 03:05:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:05:15 -!- nooga has joined. 03:06:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds). 03:18:30 Gregor: halp 03:18:42 ? 03:19:18 how do i break the select method form all input objects in the DOM on all webpages via greasemonkey? 03:19:37 HMTLInputElement.prototype.select = empty function doesn't work 03:19:46 i think because it gets run after the page is loaded maybe? 03:20:15 do i need to loop over dom and break them all individually? 03:20:51 You're only trying to break it from JS' perspective, right? 03:20:57 yes 03:21:26 i don't want a page to be able to do auto-highlighting on mouseovers and such 03:21:40 In principle that should work. But it could just be unconfigurable. Have you checked if HTMLInputElement.prototype.select actually changed? 03:22:18 ah, no...interwebs tell me that works though 03:22:23 usually 03:22:55 is there an about: page for the dom inspector? 03:23:45 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:24:36 nvm found an add-on 03:31:51 -!- Gregor` has joined. 03:32:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:32:59 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:34:57 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:36:22 DOM inspector does not let me see the contents of "prototype" 03:40:09 -!- azaq23 has joined. 03:55:25 -!- Guest20296 has changed nick to augur. 03:55:42 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:55:42 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:55:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 03:59:59 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:00:42 -!- wareya has joined. 04:06:48 -!- wareya_ has joined. 04:08:00 -!- mycrofti1 has joined. 04:09:07 -!- wareya has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:09 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:09 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:14 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:15 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:18 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:18 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 04:09:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:14:39 -!- Vorpal has joined. 04:14:39 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 04:19:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:21:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:40:59 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:47:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:47:19 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:01:05 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor. 05:02:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:07:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:26:39 -!- augur has joined. 05:41:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:32:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:02:47 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:43:20 -!- mtve has joined. 08:20:20 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 08:20:39 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 08:21:26 -!- nottwo_ has joined. 08:21:34 -!- shachaf has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:21:41 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf. 08:23:10 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:15 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:16 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:17 -!- nottwo has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:23 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:25 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:26 -!- Lymia has quit (*.net *.split). 08:23:28 -!- jcp has joined. 08:23:29 -!- Leonidas has joined. 08:23:29 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:30:06 -!- rodgort has joined. 08:32:36 -!- cheater00 has joined. 09:11:30 -!- Zuu has joined. 09:11:30 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 09:11:30 -!- Zuu has joined. 09:12:30 -!- coppro_ has joined. 09:12:41 -!- Zuu_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:41 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 09:12:42 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 09:13:36 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:40:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:40:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 09:40:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:40:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 09:40:45 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 09:40:47 -!- Deewiant_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:40:47 -!- sebbu2 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:40:54 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 09:42:27 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:43:40 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:45:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:45:17 -!- olsner has joined. 09:45:17 -!- yiyus has joined. 09:52:09 -!- Deewiant has joined. 10:19:07 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 10:20:19 -!- Gregor` has joined. 10:20:39 -!- mycrofti1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:20:42 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:29:53 freenode seems somewhat unstable today 10:29:53 -!- clog has joined. 10:34:25 Perhaps they're still patching. 10:34:28 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:34:51 (Re "[Global Notice] Hi folks! As you'll have noticed, we've been having some connectivity problems tonight. We're working on patching things together just now." about seven hours ago.) 10:35:04 -!- SimonRC has joined. 10:35:22 ah 10:35:26 I missed that one 10:44:08 -!- cheater- has joined. 10:46:16 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:49:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:56:08 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:00:28 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:00:58 -!- shachaf has joined. 11:09:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:12:29 -!- wareya has joined. 11:12:53 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:12:54 -!- Gregor` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:13:00 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:14:37 -!- Gregor has joined. 11:15:03 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest79498. 11:37:48 -!- Guest79498 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:37:49 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:38:35 -!- Gregor has joined. 11:39:01 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest96426. 11:39:28 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:55:26 hey guys 11:55:33 are there any markov bot plugins for xchat? 11:56:54 there's another channel where people speak german and they keep on accusing me of being a markov bot 11:57:04 so i thought i should actually set up a markov bot that could chat for me every now and then 12:00:57 -!- cheater00 has joined. 12:02:55 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:24:52 -!- sftp has joined. 12:25:40 -!- Guest96426 has changed nick to Gregor. 12:37:58 -!- variable has joined. 12:55:21 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro. 13:07:00 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:07:03 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:33:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:39:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:41:08 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:43:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:05:17 -!- augur has joined. 14:06:00 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:06:57 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:57 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 14:07:00 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 14:07:00 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 14:07:06 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 14:07:07 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 14:08:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:08:13 -!- variable has joined. 14:08:13 -!- Ilari has joined. 14:08:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:08:13 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:08:13 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 14:20:09 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 14:20:09 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 14:20:13 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 14:20:13 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 14:20:19 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 14:20:19 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 14:20:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:20:41 -!- variable has joined. 14:20:41 -!- Ilari has joined. 14:20:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:20:41 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:20:41 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 14:29:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:32:55 -!- augur has joined. 14:47:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:49:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:51:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:52:50 -!- lambdabot has joined. 14:54:38 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:56:02 -!- pumpkin has joined. 14:57:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:01:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:17:45 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:26:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:32:26 APNIC down 0.03: 128k+32k+16k+2x1k+256+/32+2x/48 to Australia, 64k to China, 512 to Indonesia, /32 to India, /48 to Norfolk Island, /48 to New Zealand, /32 to Singapore, 64k to Thailand. 15:34:12 Well, at least APNIC is now under 12Mi addresses. :-) 15:37:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:37:26 When did you project APNIC depletion? Mid-April? 15:38:20 614.5k addresses in a day. 15:38:25 I'll compute new projection... 15:38:32 -!- lament has joined. 15:41:19 I got Thursday 14th April this time. 15:42:16 (that date is next week!) 15:43:13 How 'bout for North America? 15:43:20 (Or is "the Americas" the region? I forget) 15:48:57 3.64 blocks (58Mi) or so seemingly. 15:49:48 (Free, don't know about the allocation rate, it is much much lower than APNIC rate). 15:51:45 So we could cruise at least through 2012. 15:52:08 Heh, in the last 30 days lists, the only allocation bigger than 256k not from APNIC is one 1M allocation from AfriNIC. 15:53:43 perhaps when APNIC runs out the run will spread to other regions... 15:54:34 unless they have rules to prevent asian companies from allocating IPs from elsewhere 15:56:54 Yeah, that's the worry. 15:58:06 The demand might spread to ARIN and RIPE NCC, quickly depleting those. Then after those have been sucked dry, LACNIC and AfriNIC. 15:59:38 1 block of demand (combined) per month would suck ARIN and RIPE NCC out completely in about 6.5 months. 16:02:08 Hmm... The default option in Lagerholm's tool previously was "RIR shopping allowed", now that option is no longer the default. 16:04:13 If Asian operators don't shift demand to other regions and if ARIN and RIPE don't suffer similar run-on-the-bank scenarios as APNIC (both fairly dubious assumptions), RIPE would run out late next year (even RIPE itself isn't that optimistic!) and ARIN in early year after that. 16:05:36 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:05:39 -!- elliott has joined. 16:05:45 23:37:58: quintopia: But he ping-timeout'd, not quit. 16:05:46 23:38:51: i don't think it's a problem with his connection 16:05:46 23:39:15: i bet he just unplugged his computer because he was fed up with us 16:05:46 my client can do that sometimes 16:05:48 Full demand shifting would cause everything to run out early next year. 16:06:11 00:28:40: Gregor, :(:( 16:06:12 00:36:34: I feel guilty for not donating now 16:06:18 i don't see Gregor saying anything beforehand? 16:06:22 did the logbot go down? 16:06:50 elliott: I shall not discuss libc.so in-channel, but that doesn't stop other people from doing so :P 16:07:03 Gregor, can you at least confirm that you didn't get it? 16:07:15 'twas not meant to be. 16:07:20 err 16:07:21 wait 16:07:25 what made people suspect that he didn't get it 16:07:36 sgeo just seems to have decided that out of the blue 16:07:44 elliott: he changed his nick back? 16:07:48 elliott: Facebook. 16:07:54 um his nick had been back five years ago 16:08:15 Or the lack of raucous celebration? 16:08:17 ...what. 16:08:33 If there was raucous celebration, it would have started nowishly :P 16:08:50 FWIW, my DNS doesn't realise .so is a TLD yet. 16:09:40 Really? Not your browser? 16:10:17 -!- elliott_ has joined. 16:10:57 http://sprunge.us/JdbJ ;; :D 16:11:03 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:11:04 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 16:11:07 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 16:11:08 -!- elliott has joined. 16:13:55 Wonder if IPv6 allocation rates in Asia-Pacific will take some rocket fuel when APNIC IPv4 pool depletes. 16:14:48 -!- sftp has joined. 16:16:21 ... The primary worry with that is if APNIC is fast enough to handle the demand, not that it would deplete APNIC pool (there's over 30 bilion /48s to allocate until half-block threshold is reached, and then there's IANA with 506 blocks). 16:17:06 Gregor, whois fails as well. 16:17:28 Actually, I can get to nic.so. 16:17:33 Phantom_Hoover: whois would fail because it doesn't know how to whois .so in particular. 16:17:55 Plus I don't think they provide a whois-protocol whois server... 16:18:04 Is your browser Chrome, perchance? 16:18:06 This TLD has no whois server. 16:18:08 :o 16:18:09 that's like 16:18:12 the hidden realm 16:18:22 The nic.so whois says nothing about libc.so. 16:18:24 It has a web-accessible captchawhois :P 16:18:36 Phantom_Hoover: The auction isn't over yet, and even if it was it wouldn't be allocated yet. 16:18:45 Who's WINNING 16:19:04 Charlie Sheen. He's a real C programmer. 16:19:09 Anonymous bidder #449 16:19:24 Remind me which one you are. 16:19:28 #442 16:19:37 Gregor: So close! 16:19:39 Oops, calculated that estimate wrong: I get Wednesday 13th April using the current pool size (not pool size after Friday). 16:19:40 AKA libdl.so :P 16:19:40 X-D 16:20:21 I had an earlier number than the others because I was in the ld-linux.so auction, although I made no bids there. 16:22:21 But for some reason Huston site has APNIC having extra 0.2 free blocks (which would push depletion to ~Friday 15th April). 16:22:26 Oh, not #whatever in the auction, just in general :P 16:22:31 I was thinking dayum, you had no chance. 16:22:39 Also ld-linux was actually fought over at all? X-D 16:26:53 fizzie: YOU'RE a Forthy kind of person aren't you?! DO YOU WANT TO TRY THE FRTH DEVELOPER PRELEASE 16:28:12 I'm not that frothy; I'm really actually quite stale. 16:29:03 What? Graph on APNIC site is showing only down 0.01, but values for numerious previous days have gone down 0.02 (retroactively!). 16:29:28 fizzie: Well, yeah, being almost 30 and all. 16:29:54 Ilari: the ip depletion is causing disruptions in the timestream. we are doomed! 16:43:21 we're mooded 16:44:05 the moody mod of doom 16:45:32 But for some reason Huston site has APNIC having extra 0.2 free blocks (which would push depletion to ~Friday 15th April). <-- and what happens then 16:45:40 THE END 16:45:42 OF THE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORLD 16:45:44 Ilari, how long before the LIRs get into issue? 16:47:35 issues* 16:47:35 brb phone 16:48:44 No idea how long LIRs have to go. There's certain allocation period (but I don't recall what current APNIC policies about that are). 16:48:49 it's the phone call of DOOM 16:49:46 Uh, oh: "CNNIC, the Chinese Registrar and CA have been EV enabled. As part of this, a new EV-enabled Root was added (the old is not EV-enabled)." (opera). Let's just say that certain persons don't trust CNNIC _at_ _all_. 16:49:56 hmm, aria2c is being a bit slower than usual :/ 16:50:01 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:51:20 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:52:07 In December 2010 some users requested that the Unity launcher (or dock) be movable from the left to other sides of the screen, but Mark Shuttleworth stated in reply, “I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button.”[11] 16:52:16 It SUPPLIES THE CONCEPTUAL ENERGY 16:53:16 Ilari, EV? Is that DNSSEC-related? 16:53:29 Extended Validation (related to SSL certificates). 16:53:37 No. It's Evisceration Vacancies. 16:53:40 Nothing to do with DNSSEC. 16:53:45 The Chinese government can now execute people OVER DNS 16:53:47 Ilari, ah 16:53:59 They basically just have a bunch of empty EV records in a domain. 16:54:00 hi elliott 16:54:03 how are you 16:54:07 When you do a DNS lookup, you get trapped in one and eviscerated. 16:54:09 ... Which .cn apparently doesn't have enabled. 16:54:39 hm 16:56:28 DNSSEC-enabling .cn would only make .cn vulernable to CNNIC. Giving them EV cert perms in browsers makes everything vulernable to them. 16:56:57 Ilari, hm. Is CNNIC bad? 16:57:05 wait, probably 16:57:20 http://sprunge.us/JdbJ < lol 16:58:19 Vorpal: Depends on how tightly China controls it... 16:58:59 right 17:01:10 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:01:33 hmm, writing a Magenta parser looks scary 17:05:33 Magento? 17:06:26 * cheater99 hates the "opensores" web app/store called Magento. 17:10:41 First, I don't have a damn clue what any of this means anymore. The design was such a twisted mess that there was no way I could go back and add anymore to it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the poor sap trying to turn this disaster into a LALR(1) grammar for yacc. That said, I'd love to see someone try. 17:10:43 ahahahahah 17:10:48 good luck elliott. 17:11:10 magento, part esolang, part supervillain 17:12:41 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:15:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:21:42 hi ais523 17:22:20 hi elliott 17:22:31 Hmm, HP Lovecraft was appalled when he discovered his great-great-grandmother was Welsh. 17:23:10 You're HP Lovecraft's great-great-grandmother? 17:24:13 Honestly, V*rpal's not paying attention right now. 17:24:20 OH GOD WAIT HE IS 17:24:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:24:26 I know not what you talk about. 17:24:41 How Welsh I am. 17:24:52 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:24:55 You're Welsh; so? 17:25:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:25:08 OH GOD WAIT HE IS <-- just back 17:25:11 ;P 17:25:22 elliott, nothing. 17:25:29 OK. 17:26:07 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:26:07 wow, Common Lisp actually has if/else 17:26:09 btw, I think I might do some sort of fuzzy-matching on highlighting. Would be fun 17:26:11 that is, with explicit else 17:26:43 (loop for i upto 20 17:26:43 if (oddp i) 17:26:43 collect i into odds 17:26:43 else 17:26:43 collect i into evens 17:26:43 finally (return (values evens odds))) 17:27:03 That's not proper if/else. 17:27:10 That's loop, so it doesn't count. 17:27:20 ...of course it's loop 17:27:26 that's why it surprised me 17:27:26 sheesh 17:27:39 (i wouldn't have expected it to pronounce it in quite that way) 17:27:58 BF really needs a while/else 17:28:09 BF just needs an if :-P 17:28:14 e.g. if (*p) while (*p) {} else {} 17:28:24 it'd let me abbreviate my huge BF Joust program much better 17:28:44 I think I finally got it within fizzielance's nesting constraints, by examining the other programs and adding only the cases that actually ran 17:28:53 {[...]+}-{...} 17:28:57 which is a bit like constant tweaking, but I don't care as it's working around an intepreter failure 17:29:01 works for 0/1 booleans 17:29:03 does what you said 17:29:05 sort of 17:29:10 wait, exactly what you said 17:29:14 well, it'd matter in BF Joust because of itming 17:29:16 *timing 17:29:18 fizzielance lol 17:30:04 !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/CNiW 17:30:15 Score for ais523_anticipation: 40.2 17:30:37 ^ defence program that beats slowpoke 17:30:49 that made me think Culture ship names, then I tried to think why, then I realised that an (IIRC obnoxious) Wikipedian used that Culture ship name as a username for a while 17:30:51 unfortunately, I figured out how to adapt slowpoke's strategy in a way which probably is completely fatal to defence 17:30:56 then I regretted my auto-thinking 17:31:03 ais523: you said that /last/ time too 17:31:14 what, that slowpoke was fatal? 17:31:15 (Culture ship in question is Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The) 17:31:22 (Let's just pretend I've memorised every Culture ship name without ever reading the novels) 17:31:24 ais523: yes 17:31:30 perhaps 17:31:54 but anticipation-style strategies can only work by assuming the program in question uses consistent timings 17:32:06 and I worked out how to make slowpoke vary its attack timing 17:33:04 ok, the person who used that name has /way/ too many pseudonyms 17:35:37 http://libdl.so/ <-- best web page ever? 17:35:46 (Not URL, page) 17:36:17 haha 17:36:22 probably not, but it's good for a quick laugh 17:36:24 gregor richards? 17:36:31 ok gregor... now i know your powerword 17:36:36 >:D 17:36:39 SO HOW MANY THOUSANDS DID THAT ONE COST MR. GREGOR "MONEYBAGS" RICHARDS [U+PRBLM TROLL FACE] 17:37:03 ais523: what's the ;s in anticipation? 17:37:11 cheater99: ... my ... name? 17:37:12 ;s? 17:37:20 elliott: There was no auction. $10 :P 17:37:21 yes. 17:37:27 your powerword. check it on ED. 17:37:34 >>>(-)*20<(-)*20<(-)*20<(+)*108; 17:37:34 cheater99: My name isn't a secret. My real name is on my /whois . 17:37:36 all one of them 17:37:37 oh, I must have been putting trailing semicolons out out of habit 17:37:40 X-D 17:37:50 the ()*14 stuff is debug cod 17:37:50 Gregor: No, your REAL NAME 17:37:52 *code 17:37:56 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Powerword 17:38:00 Gregor: Mrs. Mary Gregor Richards 17:38:02 juiced currently notices loops like that and prints them to stderr whenever they execute 17:38:11 elliott: *Richardson 17:38:15 which is really helpful when debugging 17:38:22 and other interps ignore them 17:38:41 ais523: we decided on ()*0 as the comment format; IMO that would be a far superior method 17:38:52 because printing all comments in a debug mode is a pretty good idea in bf joust 17:39:01 elliott: perhaps, but comments are sometimes really long 17:39:04 since comments (at least for me) tend to just denote when the warrior starts doing something interesting 17:39:04 Revealing to your victim that you know their Powerword: Real Name will cause them to panic, as they suddenly confront the possibility that their Furaffinity posts or the Eagle-Fox hybrid voraphile porn on their DeviantArt account could be sent to their IRL co-workers and friends. Their typical reaction will be to DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING - fortunately, most good trolls take screenshots. 17:39:07 comments and debug tags are inherently different things 17:39:08 ais523: only /yours/ 17:39:20 what if someone puts the entire code generator in a comment? 17:39:29 ais523: Gregor tried that, the syntax rules made it impossible :) 17:39:36 [( They're on our flag; time to attack )*0 17:39:41 or uses comments to explain their decoy setups? 17:39:47 [-] ( They're gone! Or are they? )*0 [(Nope)*0 ...] ...] 17:39:59 ais523: that's acceptable to print out, IMO 17:40:03 it's easy enough to skip over such things 17:40:05 not if it's several lines long 17:40:10 ais523: it only happens once 17:40:19 the code generator for anticipator has huge paragraphs explaining which timings are used by which other programs 17:40:23 *anticipation 17:40:31 ais523: OK, well, what if we said that ()%0 was debug? :-D 17:40:41 ouch 17:40:54 especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a 17:41:01 (juiced screws up on that case, though, IIRC) 17:41:03 ais523: Don't go ouch, my other idea was ((debug)*0)*-1 17:41:15 ouch 17:41:21 precisely :D 17:41:29 especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a 17:41:31 we could use this! 17:41:33 the other advantage of ()*n is that it doesn't need to store any information the interp isn't already storing 17:41:34 (before{...}after)%0 17:41:35 USEFUL! 17:41:36 juiced deletes comments on load 17:41:40 but not ()*n loops 17:41:45 especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a 17:41:48 so... 17:41:57 ais523: lance's architecture required deleting ()*n, IIRC 17:41:59 (comment {a} comment)%0 17:42:03 obvious 17:42:04 Vorpal: PRECISELY 17:42:06 (before{...}after)%0 USEFUL! 17:42:14 also, not comment 17:42:14 debug 17:42:19 for which a before/after pair might actually be useful :) 17:42:42 elliott, so what about proper code comments? 17:42:52 we've already agreed those are ()*0 17:43:00 elliott, I thought that was debug? 17:43:05 no 17:43:06 oh wait 17:43:11 % 17:43:11 right 17:43:17 although they're more dead code than comments, because they still have to have balanced (), [], etc. 17:43:21 and can't have {} in them without a ()% in them 17:43:22 and whatnot 17:43:26 elliott, I wasn't aware of that ()%n existed 17:43:28 and ()s in them still have to be followed by * or %, etc. etc. etc. 17:43:31 Vorpal: (a{b}c)%n 17:43:47 elliott, ah well without the {} I meant 17:44:13 that doesn't exist 17:45:36 * elliott opens a lance directory to start coding 17:45:45 no deadline, before anyone asks :P 17:45:54 Anyone have a way to convert a spreadsheet into a LaTeX table? 17:46:00 what format? 17:47:49 .xls AtM, but I can use Calc to convert it. 17:49:10 ew, use Gnumeric :) 17:49:17 Well, OK. 17:49:22 Same difference/ 17:51:09 hmm 17:51:10 with 17:51:14 struct foo { A x; B y; }; 17:51:16 assuming you have 17:51:21 struct foo blah = ...; 17:51:27 B *foo = &foo->y; 17:51:27 is 17:51:39 (struct foo*)(foo - offsetof(struct foo, y)) 17:51:46 guaranteed to be a pointer to blah? 17:51:48 *foo * 17:52:10 It is useful when implementing generic data structures in C. For example, the Linux kernel uses offsetof() to implement container_of(), which allows something like a Mixin type to find the structure that contains it:[3] 17:52:11 #define container_of(ptr, type, member) ({ \ 17:52:11 const typeof( ((type *)0)->member ) *__mptr = (ptr); \ 17:52:11 (type *)( (char *)__mptr - offsetof(type,member) );}) 17:52:11 This macro is used to retrieve an enclosing structure from a pointer to a nested element, such as this iteration of a linked list of my_struct objects: 17:52:13 seems so 17:56:26 Phantom_Hoover, convert it to csv, then a fairly simple sed script should be able to do the rest 17:57:10 Of course, everyone has time to make a sed script to do tasks which should be routine enough for preëxisting automation. 17:57:11 might need some manual adjustment for header 17:57:11 still should be easy to automate it 17:57:44 Phantom_Hoover: You have time to whine on IRC, you have time to write a tiny sed script. 17:57:47 elliott, that looks cool 17:57:56 pitty is is not portable 17:58:06 unless I misremember 17:58:15 Vorpal: offsetof is C90 17:58:18 that container_of is nonportable, though 17:58:25 or is it typeof that isn't 17:58:33 either typeof or offsetof is non-portable 17:59:06 typeof is nonportable, but container_of is nonportable also because of ((type *0)-> 17:59:14 *no first ( 17:59:19 er wait 17:59:22 *((type *)0)-> 17:59:43 Phantom_Hoover, uh, you mean you hate coding? And I was trying to be helpful. I know of no such tool but suggested a somewhat easy way to convert very large tables 18:05:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 18:05:53 ais523: how much did your original huge program nest? 18:09:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:11:00 hmm, C could really do with generics 18:12:07 elliott, you could do "C with templates" to simulate this ;) 18:12:18 elliott, but more seriously. Have a look at the C99 header tgmath.h 18:12:48 funnily there is no pure C way to implement tgmath.h 18:13:28 hmm, I'm not even sure that's true 18:13:32 it would be really ugly though :) 18:13:59 Vorpal: well, if you knew certain things about sizeof... 18:14:13 so it can be implemented _for almost any given implementation_ in pure C 18:14:30 since the vast majority of implementations I would guess have different sizes of all of the relevant types 18:15:57 ouch 18:16:07 elliott, not true. Few embedded things do. 18:16:11 elliott: it nests 1 per cycle it waits 18:16:13 and isn't embedded systems something like 80%-90% of the computers in the world? Read that somewhere.. 18:16:13 aren't* 18:16:18 ais523: I mean, source code nesting depth 18:16:21 () and [] and {} combined 18:16:29 *combined 18:16:32 2 more, I think 18:16:38 or maybe 3 more 18:16:40 Vorpal: yeah, but i hope most embedded systems don't run C 18:16:44 (they probably do, but I hope they don't) 18:16:47 the code is pretty simple, just doesn't compress well 18:16:49 ais523: that's not an answer, the answer is constant 18:16:58 I know it broke fizziewhateverlance's limit 18:17:13 elliott: indeed, 1 per cycle it waits, which is a value I set when writing the code 18:17:18 I think I originally had it at 1600 18:17:26 hmm, wasn't it more? 18:17:51 (I'm wondering how high to set the stack limit, or alternatively, whether I really must dynamically allocate) 18:19:05 I'd happily put it all the way up at 100000 if I thought it would help, although it'd make the program much longer 18:19:17 -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 204754 2011-04-04 05:18 anticipation.bj 18:19:26 I doubt I'd go much above 2000 or so without exceeding the 1MB limit 18:19:53 aaargh 18:19:58 20 lines in half a second 18:20:02 yet I had no lag elsewhere 18:20:04 freenode fail 18:20:24 ais523: there is no 1 meg limit 18:20:29 unless fizzielance has one 18:20:36 " elliott: it nests 1 per cycle it waits" to " I doubt I'd go much above 2000 or so without exceeding the 1MB limit" arrived in a single second 18:20:41 Vorpal: k 18:21:04 actually, I think it might be interesting to do BF Joust with a nesting restriction on expanded [] 18:21:08 a really small one, say 16 18:21:13 ais523: yes, but that's not the language we're using :) 18:21:19 it'd probably make ()% redundant 18:21:26 but it'd get rid of slowpoke and improved-slowpoke-style things 18:21:28 ais523: I'll probably just malloc a 1,048,576 structures big thing for the nesting stack 18:21:34 or maybe smaller, a struct seems to be... 18:21:37 (I'll hold off on improved-slowpoke in case it truly is impossible to defend against) 18:21:44 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 18:21:48 on both 32-bit and 64-bit 18:21:59 so that would be 16 megabytes :) 18:22:07 otoh, 16 megabytes isn't much to allocate 18:22:13 doing it dynamically should be easy 18:22:14 otooh, nobody is going to nest _that_ much 18:22:17 Vorpal: yeah, but i hope most embedded systems don't run C <-- what do you expect them to run 18:22:18 wait, I can just use the cycle limit 18:22:18 duh 18:22:23 in case you're wondering, joust allocates the stack during the parser 18:22:24 that's a literal hard limit 18:22:27 *juicd 18:22:31 *juiced 18:22:37 ais523: it isn't hard, but manual memory management angers me anyway 18:22:40 Vorpal: asm or forth 18:22:46 in fact, the nesting stack's stored in the same structs that the program is 18:22:59 elliott, C is the majority as far as I know. Then there is a bit of ADA and asm. And a few thiny other languages including forth. 18:23:04 ais523: it doesn't even compile to jumps? lol 18:23:14 elliott, do ada is getting a lot more rare very quickly 18:23:16 Vorpal: *Ada 18:23:17 though* 18:23:19 weird typo 18:23:22 you've made that typo like 48734953948593475893745793845793459837598345 times 18:23:25 elliott: it effectively does 18:23:27 but it's more structured 18:23:28 or is it ais523 18:23:48 elliott, but yeah, C very clearly dominates 18:24:02 hmm, when camelcased is opcode Opcode or OpCode? 18:24:10 Vorpal: unfortunately. 18:25:00 elliott, and in embedded the ISA bus isn't still quite dead yet. Sadly. 18:25:04 It is dying, but not there yet. 18:25:11 I'm not joking. 18:25:47 oh noes? isa isn't that old 18:26:05 elliott, ISA was quite horrible 18:26:22 (before objecting that it was invented in 1981, remember that i've been reading about Multics and identifying with a lot of the design goals and implementation, and that was in 1969) 18:26:31 no wait 18:26:34 multics started in 1964 18:26:35 even earlier 18:26:57 elliott, does that mean you think everything old was better? 18:27:07 no, it just means that i've looked a lot further back than most people :) 18:27:18 oh, and I seem to like ALGOL 60 quite well, based on what ais523's said and some other things 18:27:24 (ofc Lisp is even older) 18:27:46 elliott, you should go write machine code on punch cards 18:27:57 UR JUST A MINDLESS OLDIE CONSERVATIVE 18:27:58 no 18:28:02 assembler? You got to be kidding 18:28:02 GO DO OLD THINGS 18:28:22 been practising your reading comprehension i see :) 18:28:33 elliott, no I didn't say that :P 18:28:33 elliott, I agree multics had some good points 18:28:42 come on. 18:28:54 ais523: does your hardware pass the man or boy test? 18:28:59 elliott, also I never said I wouldn't want to play with punch cards myself! 18:29:02 (I would!) 18:29:15 elliott: I haven't looked at it yet 18:29:18 Vorpal: that kind of fetish will get you in hospital with papercuts all over 18:29:24 ais523: it's basically a set of the insanity of call by name 18:29:27 elliott, har har 18:29:29 it should do, because it's harder for it to happen incorrectly than correctly 18:29:40 (I know the test exists, and more or less what it tests) 18:29:40 ais523: (the answer is -67, but Knuth thought it was -121 in the original paper, that's how hard it is :D) 18:30:09 elliott, what is this test you are talking about? 18:30:11 what's difficult in hardware is very different from what's difficult in software 18:30:11 ais523: so does your compiler work on ICA code or ALGOL 60 code? 18:30:14 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_or_boy_test 18:30:58 elliott: it works on ICA parsetrees, atm 18:31:05 ouch 18:31:11 also, that program doesn't compile into hardware, it uses an illegal sort of recursion 18:32:08 what's the max cycles? 1 M? 100 k? 18:32:15 (hardware has to be finite-state; that means restricting what's allowed) 18:32:17 in jouoouououououououost, i mean 18:32:23 100k 18:32:31 is the normally agreed-upon value nowadays 18:33:43 ais523: err, no 18:33:48 ais523: I don't think 18:33:51 ais523: that was a bug in egojoust, IIRC 18:33:56 's repetition code 18:33:59 no, the bug made it interpret -1 as 10k 18:34:00 rather than 10k 18:34:03 *rather than 100k 18:34:41 hmm, okay 18:36:37 still, C needs generics :) 18:36:46 you can't even define a stack in C! 18:37:08 either you have (1) ugly (void *) munging requiring extraneous allocation with stacks of structures, 18:37:15 elliott, you can with macros 18:37:20 (2) both an array and an index variable that are separate, 18:37:21 or 18:37:29 (3) a macro that defines a bunch of types and functions for working on a specific type 18:37:39 such a macro is hideously ugly and causes binary bloat 18:37:41 elliott, it can take a type as parameter to the macro 18:38:02 there's actually a final option, a bunch of functions that take sizeofs and a bunch of macros that call them with the appropriate sizes, but that's insanely ugly too. 18:38:03 and a pain to code 18:38:19 elliott, you could do it as a linked list 18:38:31 duh, that's what the function solutions were 18:38:37 OTOH, a linked list is pretty inefficient for a stack in C 18:38:39 because malloc is slow 18:38:48 elliott, oh, I though the functions operated on an array of some sort 18:38:49 a growing away is much better, but even more work to code 18:39:05 elliott, so stop coding C 18:39:16 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 18:39:25 I'd still have to write my own growing array in Haskell I think :-D 18:39:29 or maybe the vector package has that 18:39:39 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:39:41 elliott, surely perl has this? 18:39:43 XD 18:39:50 anyway C is more useful, since EgoBot's Haskell environment is uncertain 18:39:57 and also, because BF Joust execution is quite intensive 18:40:00 coppro: I think the Alternative Vote campaining's starting to start in earnest; the government sent out leaflets explaining what the vote was about, and links to the campaign websites: http://www.yestofairervotes.org/ http://www.no2av.org/ 18:40:01 and I like it to be fast 18:40:04 elliott, anyway it would be trivial to do in scheme 18:40:14 I love how the "no" campaign indirectly calls the US a third world country 18:40:15 ais523: it started a while ago 18:40:28 elliott, use lambdabot? 18:40:35 elliott: well, yesterday's when all the leafleting, etc, reached my house 18:40:41 ah 18:40:51 elliott, so do it in ASM! 18:40:57 total freedom 18:41:02 Vorpal: not portable, even more work to code generic things 18:41:27 ais523: are opinion polls out yet? 18:41:37 coppro: I don't think so 18:41:39 ais523: heh, howso? 18:41:42 but I haven't really looked 18:41:43 ais523: I'd expect the yes campaign to do that 18:41:49 "all first-world countries have a sane voting system!" 18:42:23 ais523: ugh @ the yes site, just because bad people vote no on AV doesn't mean it's a good idea (it is, but for better reasons altogether) 18:42:25 well, the no campaign seems to be based on two points: a) it's expensive, b) it means that the winner will be chosen by back-room deals between politicians rather than who people actually voted for 18:42:30 interestingly, Java-style generics would actually be a good fit for C, but they won't work because sizeof 18:42:33 I don't understand b) 18:42:41 ais523: you forgot c) ONE PERSON ONE VOTE LOL I AM RETARDED 18:42:43 as in, do they have a point, or are they just lying in order to try to confuse people? 18:42:47 elliott: they didn't list that 18:42:56 ais523: that's the "slogan" on their website, IIRC 18:42:59 ah 18:43:06 yep 18:43:12 see top-right corner image of http://www.no2av.org/ 18:43:32 one thing I note about the No campaign is that there's a very strong indication, if not spelt out, of "all sane politicians oppose AV, AV is a Lib Dem conspiracy to let Nick Clegg become dictator!" 18:43:33 "The Alternative Vote will be wrong for BRitain and wrong for the Labour Party." 18:43:40 hmm, no2av looks like it might get people to actually vote yes :-D 18:44:11 it looks strongly targeted at Labour voters, to me 18:44:19 and people who voted Lib Dem but regretted the decision 18:44:25 unfortunately, that may well be > 50% of the country 18:44:26 ais523: I suppose the Tories have already made up their minds 18:44:39 I'm not certain they have 18:44:55 people who have looked into the maths think that AV would probably be good for the Tories short-term, and bad long-term 18:44:58 also, I wonder if most people regret voting for the Lib Dems because they've been spineless, or because they've decided that the current government is TOO LEFT WING? 18:45:04 the former is the sane reason, but I fear it might be the latter 18:45:15 elliott: because they threw in with the Conservatives 18:45:20 ais523: so the former :) 18:45:42 (I wouldn't have minded the Coalition if it wasn't effectively the Conservatives governing with the name of the Lib Dems) 18:45:52 I'm the other way round, I didn't manage to vote Lib Dem due to a mixup (despite trying), but don't regret the result of the election 18:45:53 coppro: I think the Alternative Vote campaining's starting to start in earnest; the government sent out leaflets explaining what the vote was about, and links to the campaign websites: http://www.yestofairervotes.org/ http://www.no2av.org/ <-- which country? 18:45:53 ah UK 18:45:53 ais523, so what is this change really about? 18:45:53 elliott, ais523: what is the actual suggested change here? 18:45:53 a saner voting system would be good for UK. But it needs to be saner. 18:46:00 Vorpal: YAY LAG 18:46:04 all those mesages just came at once 18:46:05 elliott, what? 18:46:10 elliott, oh 18:46:16 a saner voting system would be good for UK. But it needs to be saner. 18:46:19 than what, AV? 18:46:22 AV is perfectly sane 18:46:24 Vorpal: the suggested change is to replace a first-past-the-post voting system with alternative-vote 18:46:25 elliott, than your old one 18:46:29 it's just instant-runoff 18:46:32 AV is definitely saner than FPTP 18:46:34 elliott, I got your messages in bursts btw 18:46:36 because most things are saner than FPTP 18:47:00 ais523, hm 18:47:03 also, in all the AV elections I've participated in so far (at university), it's been pretty sane for one-person-elected results 18:47:27 one person elected stuff is where you get into issues 18:47:28 I know from personal experience that STV (the generalised version to select more than one seat) is mostly sane, but gets extremely insane in edge cases 18:47:37 ROI use IRV for presidential elections 18:47:40 never ever try to elect fourteen candidates to twelve places like that 18:47:42 quick, let's start the propaganda machine! 18:47:44 I'm not saying that the Swedish one very good, but it is quite okay 18:48:12 ais523: yay for Stochastic votes, the only mathematically sane voting system! 18:48:17 the swedish what? 18:48:18 Stochastic! 18:48:23 I was just about to say that. 18:48:24 -!- calamari has joined. 18:48:34 I hereby propose all 0 #esoteric elections be held with stochastic voting 18:48:42 (I'm not sure stochastic voting is quite sane on such a small scale, though :)) 18:48:54 olsner, voting system. It is saner than the old UK one. And than the US one. 18:49:09 by definition no voting system is good 18:49:09 elliott: how does that work? everyone votes, then you choose a result at random? 18:49:20 ais523: that's brilliant, but no, and I have definitely told you about it before 18:49:27 it's pretty sane I think, everything is excessively sane in sweden... except the government, of course 18:49:39 ais523: "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat." 18:49:52 ah, that's slightly saner 18:49:55 but people will still hate it 18:49:56 ais523: it's much saner 18:49:58 ais523: this is the only voting system in which the only rational choice is to vote for your preference 18:50:07 ais523: people will hate it and it'll never be implemented, but there is no logical reason to hate it 18:50:17 it completely eliminates tactical voting and other such nonsense 18:50:25 elliott: no it does not 18:50:33 coppro: it eliminates tactical voting being _rational_ 18:50:38 no it does not 18:50:41 yes, it does 18:50:42 elliott: but that doesn't mean the winner we be reflective of the group 18:50:54 elliott: no, no it does not 18:50:56 coppro: it seems to get around Arrow's Theorem by having a nondeterministic result 18:51:04 coppro: are you going to answer why, or are you just going to say it's not? 18:51:23 ais523: yes, that I know 18:51:30 it's pretty sane I think, everything is excessively sane in sweden... except the government, of course <-- :D 18:51:35 elliott: what about this: /everyone/ voted for is elected, and they make collective decisions by voting themselves, with voting power proportional to the number of people who voted for them 18:51:42 actually, that's just Liquid Democracy, isn't it? 18:51:48 elliott: parties 18:51:57 coppro: that's not an answer, let alone a proof 18:52:02 elliott: 18:52:08 variable: ? 18:52:11 http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/03/unusual-voting-scheme.html 18:52:19 any constituency system has the fundamental flaw that a voter may want to vote for a less preferred person in order to get a more preferred overall outcome 18:52:34 coppro: all the _individual_ elections are completely fair 18:52:43 if you want candidate A in the seat, there is no reason not to vote for candidate A 18:52:48 coppro: in this case, you _don't_ want candidate A in the seat 18:52:51 elliott: this is true 18:53:02 your ideal world has candidate A in the seat, but the current world except candidate A in the seat is not a world you want 18:53:18 variable: er, that isn't stochastic voting, just so you know 18:53:32 elliott: see the link 18:53:33 wait a second. Don't you vote for a party over there? 18:53:36 do you vote for individuals? 18:53:43 in Sweden we vote for a party, and then state the preference of a candidate in that party 18:53:50 Vorpal: you vote for an individual who's part of a party 18:53:51 Vorpal: no, mmp is stupid 18:53:54 this is for local seats 18:53:57 ais523: and while arrow's theorem doesn't apply due to nondeterminism, it doesn't actually get around it 18:53:58 which seems to make a lot more sense, than voting for a given person 18:54:09 voting for a person is perfectly logical, it's not electing a president or anything 18:54:11 it's picking who will represent you 18:54:13 r area 18:54:17 variable: i did 18:54:23 variable: what is the relevance 18:54:39 ais523: since the algorithm effectively works by picking a dictator at random 18:54:48 elliott: I know. I just wanted to point out an interesting type of Real Life voting system 18:54:54 coppro: ???? no it doesn't 18:54:59 elliott: yes it does 18:55:01 it's not random 18:55:02 relevance = talking about voting + voting system 18:55:02 it's weighted 18:55:07 Vorpal: current UK voting system: everyone lives in a constituency; you vote for one person who represents the constituency; whoever gets the most votes in a constituency is elected to government 18:55:11 you're using the unweighted sense of "random" to make it sound bad 18:55:11 elliott: based on vote proportions 18:55:13 you're using the unweighted sense of "random" to make it sound bad 18:55:21 Vorpal: you vote for an individual who's part of a party <-- no. We vote for a party. The party has made an ordered list of candidates in the given voting area. You can check one to alter your preference from the top one to that one. Enough checks on a candidate can re-arrange the order of the list. 18:55:32 parties don't exist in theory at all, but in practice, each major party suggests someone in each constituency who's more or less forced to toe the party line 18:55:35 i.e. picking someone at random and going with their preference 18:55:37 Vorpal: no, WE vote for that 18:55:41 you as in you-in-our-scheme 18:55:42 although occasionally you get "rebellions" where they disobey the party line anyway 18:55:45 ais523, not at all like the Swedish one then 18:55:50 Vorpal: indeed 18:55:52 coppro: again, using the different sense of random to make it sound bad 18:56:21 elliott: now, you can weight the selection process by, say, square root of votes received 18:56:31 quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden#Voting: "Unlike in many countries where voters chose from a list of candidates or parties, each party in Sweden has separate ballot papers." (and then read on) 18:56:39 ais523: since the algorithm effectively works by picking a dictator at random 18:56:43 all this does is make it sound like the system is 18:56:45 >>> import random 18:56:50 >>> random.choice(list_of_candidates) 18:56:52 no wait 18:56:55 >>> DICTATOR = random.choice(list_of_candidates) 18:57:15 both "dictator" and "at random" give the sentence way more emotional content than it should have and makes it read completely wrongly 18:57:18 wow, this no-to-AV site contradicts itself 18:57:28 "The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list." 18:57:30 no 18:57:33 you got it wrong 18:57:35 ais523: I should start a yes-to-stochastic site, just to make everyone vote for AV 18:57:39 >>> DICTATOR = random.choice(list_of_voters) 18:57:46 elliott, you mean this is the system you aim for? 18:57:47 >>> WINNER = DICTATOR.choice 18:57:48 good 18:57:53 coppro: that's not true at all 18:58:00 Vorpal: what 18:58:01 Vorpal: ? 18:58:08 elliott: in the simplest stochastic system, it is 18:58:13 as I said, you can ery it more 18:58:14 Vorpal: no, WE vote for that <-- what? 18:58:17 coppro: that's not a stochastic system _anyone_ is proposing 18:58:22 HERE'S MY VOTING SYSTEMS GUYS HURP DURP 18:58:26 >>> WINNER = CANDIDATES[0] 18:58:32 THIS IS IDENTICAL TO FIRST-PAST-THE-POST AND ALSO ALL SYSTEMS 18:58:34 YOU CAN VERY IT MORE 18:58:37 BUT IT'S STILL THE SAME SYSTEM!!!!! 18:58:40 ALL VOTING SYSTEMS ARE UNFAIR 18:58:48 coppro: you ^ 18:58:52 *VARY 18:59:15 elliott: in any case, the system /does/ violate a fundamental tenet of democracy that I feel should be maintained 18:59:40 namely, that a sufficiently large majority should get to choose 19:00:07 most voting systems violate that in practice 19:00:13 coppro: that's incredibly vague 19:00:25 and it doesn't violate that tenet at all 19:00:31 coppro: what YOU'RE arguing for is literal direct democracy 19:00:41 because, if you have representatives, they could vote for something the large majority doesn't want! 19:00:46 VIOLATES A FUNDAMENTAL TENET OF DEMOCRACY 19:00:54 coppro: and one which is fundamentally impossible to have along with the other "democratic" principles (see arrows theorem which has been mentioned before) 19:00:56 so if you're proposing completely pure direct democracy... 19:01:00 uhh, have fun, I won't be joining you 19:01:00 gah, this yes-to-AV site suggests that AV eliminates tactical voting 19:01:15 which it doesn't, although it makes it both risky and confusing, which means it'll likely drop in practice to a level low enough to not be significant 19:01:45 The ability to successfully vote tactically in practice is very reduced and requires some serious mathematics and accurate opinion polls to work out 19:02:21 which means that only geeks will vote tactically and thus control the system! 19:02:24 YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS 19:02:33 elliott: ++ 19:02:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:02:39 or rather coppro ++ 19:02:49 coppro: indeed; the correct way to vote tactically under AV is to vote for a party with more extreme views than the party you think is most likely to win but don't want to win first, keeping your other preferences in order, with small probability 19:03:00 elliott: I just prefer a dictatorship with myself at the helm 19:03:00 and I wouldn't want to take that risk 19:03:08 also, the situations in which it comes up are kind-of rare 19:03:13 :-p 19:03:22 dictatorship sounds like too much work 19:03:22 variable: yes, I'm familiar with Arrow's theorem, however, there are voting systems that can maintain a majority criterion provided, of course, that you drop the independence of irrelevant alternatives 19:03:29 i'd just have people use a mind reading device on me 19:03:35 and implement whatever i think is good 19:03:42 independence of irrelevant alternatives is pretty useful 19:04:00 hmm, which of the criteria does AV fail? it meets IIA, doesn't it? 19:04:08 but impossible in any deterministic voting system 19:04:12 variable, a direct democracy would surely work? 19:04:13 ais523: Wikipedia probably has the answers :-P 19:04:19 ais523: no, it doesn't meet IIA 19:04:19 elliott: indeed, but I'm being lazy 19:04:22 in practice, no sane voting system does 19:04:23 Vorpal: Uhhhhhhh, define work 19:04:29 Direct democracy so does not work in practice 19:04:29 because violating the other two are worse 19:04:39 Direct democracy gives you a country with no taxes and infinite public services :P 19:04:50 coppro: oh right, because an irrelevant alternative could get more first-place votes than the party that eventually wins, and yet more or less no support elsewhere? 19:04:53 actually, no 19:04:57 elliott: indeed, but I'm being lazy 19:04:59 by trying to think it out yourself? 19:05:12 oh, because it can split the vote for the eventual best party in half, causing it to lose in the first round 19:05:18 -!- augur has joined. 19:05:26 in fact, a direct democracy would be fun 19:05:30 elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet 19:05:34 time consuming however 19:05:37 Vorpal: you end up with rational ignorance and tyranny of the majority (ok - not a necc. a mathematical argument - but an important one to) 19:05:43 `addquote elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet 19:05:47 350) elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet 19:05:49 Vorpal: A fun BAD IDEA. 19:06:04 variable, you mean like in Switzerland and the Minaret ban? 19:06:22 ais523: yes, exactly 19:06:24 Switzerland isn't totally direct-democracy. 19:06:42 Vorpal: I only read about that in passing - but yeah 19:07:25 ais523: the alternatives to failing IIA are failing the unanimity criterion or a dictator 19:08:46 aren't there four criteria, any one of which can be broken? 19:08:50 oh, the other one's always producing a result 19:09:23 I think Condorcet fails that one, and meets the other three 19:09:29 * tswett waits. 19:09:34 which is a really interesting combo 19:09:38 hrrm 19:09:40 Vorpal: ToM is roughly: "when the controlling members of a voting system vote against the non-controlling members in a way which affords no positive to either side" some would extend that to "in a way which affords to positive to the non-controlling side" 19:09:41 especially as it often does produce a result 19:09:43 variable, you risk that with too anyway. Weather-wane politics to keep the power. 19:09:43 Less likely yes but still a risk 19:09:43 Rational Ignorance is: "I don't care about this issue either way - so I won't vote" and thus leads to a minority controlling 19:09:47 hm 19:09:55 Vorpal: imagine a law giving $100 to every person in new york and taking that from idaho's budget. all the people outside of those two states would not vote (they are rationally ignorant) and NY would win with a bad law (taking money from other people without reason) because of a minority of a total voters) 19:10:04 ais523: hmm, I bet there are voting systems like "Condorcet, and if it doesn't work, tweak and repeat" 19:10:20 there are quite a few condorcet-and-tiebreak systems 19:10:21 variable, right 19:10:22 the tweaking part being the thing that breaks a different criterion, obviously 19:10:28 hmm 19:10:33 like ranked pairs 19:10:41 tweak-and-repeat's an interesting way to do things, though 19:11:02 Switzerland isn't totally direct-democracy. <-- indeed. But in this specific case, that was the aspect that mattered. 19:11:15 elliott: some ideas I have seen are basically threshold + rotate: everyone votes one person from a pool of nominies. If they get at least X% of the vote they get to be in charge for L amount of time after which the next one takes over 19:11:24 once they all rotate - new elections 19:11:25 ais523: Condorcet, and if it produces no result, remove the least popular candidate, and reassign all votes for that candidate to the candidate just above it in poopularity (where popularity is measured by the sum of 1/ranking over all votes for them, or something), then repeat 19:11:50 elliott: Condorcet takes rankings as an input 19:11:58 ais523: oh, and this does mean that if you vote (3, X) and (4, Y) and Y gets knocked off, then you'll vote (3, X) and (4, X) which is impossible normally 19:11:59 gregor! 19:11:59 ais523: yes it does 19:12:01 ais523: I accounted for that 19:12:15 ais523: that system i just invented probably already exists, anyway :) 19:12:16 but it only compares pairwise 19:12:23 ais523: wrong 19:12:38 ais523: create a mapping of candidate->popularity, where popularity = sum1/ranking for all votes for candidate 19:12:43 gregor! ??????? 19:12:44 where ranking is the ranking the candidate was at 19:13:03 ais523: pick the candidate with the least popularity; change all votes for (ranking,candidate) into (ranking,candidate2), where candidate2 is the second-least candidate by popularity 19:13:04 then repeat 19:13:12 no, the way Condorcet works is for any two candidates, a > b if more people put a above b than put b above a, now tsort the results and see who ends up first 19:13:13 gregor! ??????? 19:13:20 it doesn't produce a result because sometimes you have cycles 19:13:21 quintopia, variable, Vorpal: ??? 19:13:22 variable: that is how i go about getting people's attention 19:13:26 ais523: note: if you have (3,X) and (4,Y) and Y gets knocked off and X is candidate2, this turns into (3,X) and (4,X), but that's okay 19:13:29 Gregor: i sent you pm. 19:13:30 Gregor, I have no clue 19:13:32 ais523: AND? 19:13:32 so how do you define "least popularity"? 19:13:35 ais523: I TOLD YOU 19:13:37 quintopia: typically prefixed with a "ping" on IRC :-\ 19:13:38 ais523: you use the ranking pairs directly 19:13:40 not condorcet's output 19:13:43 elliott: ah, OK 19:13:47 I think that probably does have a name 19:14:02 variable: maybe that is a freenode tradition, but i shun and eschew tradition 19:14:30 ais523: yes; possibly it doesn't make the decision to turn (3,worst-candidate-but-one) and (4,worst-candidate) into (3,worst-candidate-but-one) and (3,worst-candidate-but-one) 19:14:35 ais523: (I imagine it might just drop the latter vote) 19:16:15 -!- tswettbot has joined. 19:16:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:16:30 tswettbot: oh dear 19:16:52 Okay, I think I know what's going on. I'm telling it to connect, but the object holding the connection is instantly garbage collected, since I'm not doing anything with it. 19:16:52 ais523: aargh, one day I'm going to kill G. for introducing "moron in a hurry" 19:16:58 oh shit, it's a tswettbot 19:17:01 tswett: what language? 19:17:03 * pumpkin runs 19:17:05 Smalltalk. 19:17:17 oh shit, is it going to talk to us about the weather then? 19:17:18 tswett: are you using the destructor to close the connection or something? 19:17:24 if so, that's probably a bad idea :) 19:17:31 and I think smalltalks are mark-and-sweep usually, not refcounted 19:17:36 so I very much doubt it's freed instantly 19:17:40 or, rather, they're anything but refcounting 19:17:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:17:54 I'm not telling it to close the connection at all. 19:18:15 is source available? or is it written in the sort of Smalltalk where source doesn't really exist, only objects? 19:18:19 All I know is that if I don't do something with the object, tswettbot doesn't show up here. 19:18:32 ais523: I could "file out" the package, which might produce readable source code. 19:19:31 ais523: You could have just asked "Is it written in GNU Smalltalk?" 19:19:40 Anyway, Smalltalk projects are usually shared with Monticello, the language-aware VCS. 19:19:51 In Squeak, at least, and IIRC it runs on the popular commercial systems too. 19:20:12 Anyway, Smalltalk's GUI and expressions you evaluate manually apparently do not use separate threads automatically. So, since this expression will continue evaluating until tswettbot disconnects, I don't get to use the GUI for a while. :P 19:20:15 elliott: I think I went to some effort to make sure that in Feather, source really did always exist 19:20:36 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:20:38 tswettbot should be out of here in just a mom--yep. 19:24:20 The file-out was successful, but I have no idea where the file is. :P 19:24:24 out 19:25:12 Here it is. It's inside the application package. 19:25:32 THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR USING OS X 19:25:36 or RISC OS I guess 19:25:38 or ROX 19:25:50 Alas, this file is CR-delimited. 19:28:13 CR-delimited? 19:28:42 It uses CR to denote a line break. 19:28:47 There are no LFs anywhere. 19:28:58 is that like comma-separated, with LF between lines and CR between fields? 19:29:08 which would by the way be a nice file format 19:29:25 tswett, classic mac os? 19:29:27 wouldn't using tabs between fields make more sense? 19:29:36 for bonus points, EBCDIC has LF, CR, /and/ NL 19:29:40 hello 19:29:48 I thought OS X didn't use CR any more 19:29:49 I can never spell EBCDIC 19:29:50 it's always 19:29:51 ebidibic 19:29:54 ebidbidbdicbd 19:29:56 btw, do you know the original reason both LF and CR were created? 19:29:56 beidbeidbebibeic 19:29:58 ebdiebdciebdeibcidebciebdiebcidbeicbiecicd 19:30:05 beiber 19:30:08 ais523, what did NL do? 19:30:12 Vorpal: newline, of course 19:30:19 elliott, same! 19:30:22 Vorpal: that's certainly not what I'm *using*. I guess this Smalltalk format just happens to use CR for lines. 19:30:29 ais523, well duh 19:30:31 ais523, but how was it used 19:30:33 the BCD stands for binary-coded-decimal, it's easier to spell if you know that 19:30:36 Vorpal: I don't know 19:30:39 If OS X still used just CR for line breaks, nothing would work. :) 19:30:40 ais523, as compared to how CR and LF were used 19:30:40 ah 19:31:12 are you implying OS X works, tswett? 19:31:22 elliott: no, I'm implying that *some* of it works. 19:31:29 hmm well that might be true, mathematically 19:31:33 depending on the definition of works 19:31:52 For example, I can use the TextEdit application to create a plain text file, open up the Terminal application, cat the file (if I can find it), and boom, it's the file I entered into TextEdit. 19:32:30 tswett: doesn't textedit use rtf even if you just type plain text, by default 19:32:31 ;D 19:32:55 Yup. 19:33:06 hah 19:33:17 I guess it's the file you entered into TextEdit, i.e. literally the file 19:33:21 just not the text you entered into TextEdit :-D 19:33:32 although i don't think the terminal distinguishes \n from \r\n 19:33:40 and it probably decodes any utf-8 sequences 19:33:41 Okay, okay, I have to use some menu options to make that work. :P 19:33:42 so it's not even the same file! 19:33:53 tswett: that doesn't work if you don't have a mouse!!! 19:33:59 Here's what the file-out of my Smalltalk looks like: http://pastebin.com/yi34NaBs 19:34:08 elliott: I don't have a mouse. It works just fine. 19:34:29 tswett: a pointing device, then 19:34:32 You can almost read that file-out. 19:34:45 oh dear, wiktionary has lojban 19:34:52 It's delimited by exclamation marks, apparently. 19:35:06 It's mostly readable, but I have no idea what "]style[(45)f1!" means. 19:35:09 apparently zbasu was formed by finding out what the word is in a bunch of other languages, then taking letters at random 19:35:25 tswett: "TannerSwett" -- your smalltalk name is meant to be your initials, IIRC 19:35:37 nextPutAll: 'USER ', nick, ' * * :', nick; crlf; 19:35:37 second parameter is mode, not * 19:35:38 try 8 19:35:55 also classify your methods >:() 19:35:57 *>:) 19:35:57 No, they weren't taken at random. They used a very sophisticated and specialized PRNG. 19:36:18 tswett: also also, you probably don't want an accessor for the stream 19:36:20 or at least not a /setter/ 19:36:32 I thought the second and third parameters were the hostname and server. 19:36:40 no, that's in the old RFC 19:36:56 Oh. So you're saying the second parameter should be the number 8? 19:37:08 Or any other mode bitmask (there are only two bits you can set that are RFC-defined) 19:37:10 And yeah, I'll classify my methods once I figure out what classification they should go in. :P 19:37:16 IIRC that sets invisible and disables wallops 19:37:21 invisible is forced on freenode anyway 19:37:21 * tswett nods. 19:37:24 and a bot can't do anything useful with wallops 19:37:38 And yeah, I don't want a setter on stream. 19:37:46 tswett: Or arguably an accessor. 19:37:53 The getter should probably go, too, eventually. 19:37:55 Unless there's a reason for arbitrary other classes to be writing to the socket. 19:38:01 You could just have a writeIRCLine: method or something. 19:38:19 I should be using instVarAt: when I really need to access it manually for some strange reason. 19:38:27 So yeah. 19:38:30 Ouch. 19:38:46 Or the object browser. :P 19:38:55 tswett: You should write a working SmallNomic to motivate me to go back to mine :-D 19:39:04 That's what I'm working on. 19:39:14 Step one is obviously to write an IRC bot. 19:39:24 tswett: Damn. Then stop so I don't feel pressure when writing mine. 19:39:51 tswett: I would totally tell you the one thing something can't be called a Smalltalk nomic without, but you'd just STEAL IT if you haven't already and I CANNOT ABIDE BY THAT. 19:40:24 :P 19:40:40 I already have a bunch of ideas. Like, make the nomic scriptable with Lua. 19:40:51 tswett: Was... Smalltalk not good enough? 19:41:03 NO LANGUAGE IS GOOD ENOUGH! 19:41:04 I MUST HAVE TWO! 19:41:21 tswett: The Thing It Must Have is the ability to modify any core class, not just "Nomic-owned" ones, so that the nomic can even modify the programming language it's written in. 19:41:24 Seriously, I've never found a programming language with both persistence and sandboxing. So I'm using Smalltalk for persistence and Lua for sandboxing. 19:41:28 Ostensibly this would produce the GREATEST 19:41:29 PROGRAMMING 19:41:30 LANGUAGE 19:41:31 EVER. 19:41:33 tswett: You don't NEED sandboxing... 19:41:42 Apart from, like, running it in a chroot. 19:41:44 Yes, but it makes things much nicer, doesn't it? 19:41:47 No. 19:41:50 Imagine a MOO that doesn't have sandboxing. 19:41:51 It restricts what the nomic can do. 19:42:01 tswett: Is it meant to be a nomic or a MOO? 19:42:05 No, not that kind of sandboxing. Allow the nomic to sandbox the code that users put into it. 19:42:13 (It can't be both; it can only be a nomic with a MOO subgame.) 19:42:13 A moomic. 19:42:19 Okay, a nomic with a MOO subgame. 19:42:19 No, not that kind of sandboxing. Allow the nomic to sandbox the code that users put into it. 19:42:22 That's the kind of sandboxing I meant. 19:42:40 That's so well-integrated that it becomes a moomic. 19:42:42 tswett: The MOO should obviously be in Smalltalk :) 19:42:48 Mostly because Smalltalk is pretty well suited to writing nomics. 19:42:54 It is, yes. 19:42:58 erm. 19:42:59 Mostly because Smalltalk is pretty well suited to writing MOOs. 19:43:04 It is, yes. 19:43:05 (Because of the message-passing paradigm.) 19:43:21 So how does the sandboxing I mentioned restrict what the nomic can do? 19:43:31 I thought you meant sandboxing proposals themselves and the like. 19:43:35 Which is Satanic. 19:43:40 Oh. Nope. 19:43:58 Let people upload code and run it without asking anyone for permission. Naturally, that requires sandboxing. 19:44:01 tswett: Also also, you may not have a JS-based class browser proposal creation interface, because that's SmallNomic patented :P 19:44:26 * tswett writes the most ingenious code ever: [(Delay forSeconds: 5) wait] fork 19:44:36 Wow! It does nothing, in the background! 19:44:40 Like "sleep 5 &"! 19:44:44 Precisely. 19:44:52 tswett: Anyway if you were a REAL programmer you'd do it in Self. 19:45:36 I wonder how forkAndWait could possibly be useful. It provides threading, but only allows one thread to run at once. 19:45:50 Does it exist? 19:46:00 Yep. You can [(Delay forSeconds: 5) wait] forkAndWait. 19:46:00 Anyway, it'll only wait on it in the current thread. 19:46:07 But you could also just call the block. 19:46:09 I think. 19:46:17 tswett: Why not check out its code/comments? 19:46:41 I did. It says, "Suspend current process and execute self in new process, when it completes resume current process". 19:47:01 Huh. 19:48:45 Huh, there are these things called ProcessSpecificVariables. 19:48:56 tswett: Ew. 19:48:58 I guess which process you're in sometimes matters. 19:49:00 And yes, ew. 19:49:01 Just put it in an object :P 19:49:13 tswett, to protect some sort of thread state perhaps? If smalltalk has anything such 19:49:13 like thread local variables or whatever. 19:49:19 Vorpal: Again, ew. 19:49:22 What's wrong with using an object 19:49:27 [Foo new doThings] fork 19:49:58 elliott, Nothing I assume. I was just trying to give a suggestion for what might be the reason behind it 19:50:07 So, ew. 19:50:25 I don't know smalltalk :P 19:50:31 well I know a few basic things 19:50:33 but that is all 19:50:52 grr, the worst thing with the 19:50:53 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:50:57 foo stack[constant]; 19:50:59 int stack_ptr = -1; 19:51:05 thing is that you can't have functions that operate on the stack 19:51:12 without passing two params) 19:51:19 int stack_ptr = -1; <-- aieee! 19:51:19 Now to ponder how things are going to send and receive IRC messages. 19:51:22 elliott, needs to be long 19:51:23 Vorpal: what? 19:51:25 Vorpal: ... 19:51:27 or even better unsigned long 19:51:38 probably ssize_t 19:51:40 tswett: surely the bot should do that itself 19:51:47 or size_t 19:51:58 Vorpal: why, it's size-limited 19:52:10 elliott, by how much? 19:52:12 100k 19:52:19 elliott, they why not a short? 19:52:19 which i believe always fits in an int. 19:52:29 Vorpal: oh eff off... and a signed short can't store that 19:52:37 elliott, unsigned one 19:52:47 Vorpal: 100k > 65536 19:52:52 oh hm 19:52:55 and -1 is to denote "empty stack" 19:53:04 elliott, use int_least32_t or whatever the type is 19:53:05 even with 0 = no stack 19:53:06 you can't do 19:53:14 if (--n >= 0) ... 19:53:19 Vorpal: aka int 19:53:25 elliott, anyway I have worked on system where int was 16-bit 19:53:28 elliott, so no 19:53:33 not C90 19:53:33 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:54:18 elliott, yes it is. It was freestanding however. 19:54:28 elliott, but please point me to the paragraph that says int must be at least 32 bits 19:55:04 hmm, seems int has to store at least +-32767 19:55:10 in C89 draft 19:55:16 let me check c99 19:55:31 — maximum value for an object of type int 19:55:31 INT_MAX 19:55:31 +32767 // 215 − 1 19:55:31 elliott, this is from C99 19:55:35 but I doubt it would change it radically from C90 19:55:41 very well then 19:55:45 215 - 1? what?) 19:56:57 elliott, long must be at least 32 bits 19:56:57 elliott, int must not 19:56:57 elliott, this is in 5.2.4.2.1 §1 19:57:04 Vorpal: i'm not talking to you until you stop lagging 19:57:09 elliott, that was 2^15 19:57:09 anyway there is only one solution 19:57:11 but copy paste 19:57:16 char ptr[sizeof(STACK_SIZE)]; 19:57:24 elliott, and it is you who is lagging from my POV 19:57:30 elliott, I think freenode is under attack 19:57:33 actually i dunno if sizeof(234234) works 19:57:35 i guess it does 19:57:37 since it can take a value 19:57:40 elliott, because I have <0.1s lag to server 19:57:40 but without an L suffix 19:57:43 it might sizeof the overflowed int 19:57:50 Vorpal: under attack AND YET 19:57:53 nobody but you is having troubles! 19:57:54 how strange! 19:58:07 elliott, I have no problems on other irc networks 19:58:18 yes. clearly freenode's problem just for you. 19:58:21 they're so kind 19:58:25 I could try reconnecting to another server except it would be a PITA 19:58:32 yes, it would take whole keystrokes 19:58:37 elliott, have you looked in larger channels 19:58:45 elliott, no it would take minutes to rejoin channels :P 19:58:53 #ubuntu looks perfectly fine to me 19:58:58 elliott, atm yes 19:59:01 elliott, there are lag spikes 19:59:12 and also, nobody else in here is whining but that's likely more a result of you being whiny than everyone else not having problems 19:59:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:59:23 now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to whining about C 19:59:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 19:59:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:59:27 elliott, I'm not whining. You are. 19:59:39 freenode fail, i think freenode is under attack 19:59:42 because i have no problems with other servers 19:59:44 yadda yadda 19:59:46 Vorpal: stop whining about who's whining 19:59:53 olsner, hah 20:00:02 elliott, no. Because I saw that mentioned in another channel 20:00:07 by a former staff. 20:00:14 FORMER staff! golly gosh! 20:00:18 so authoritative 20:00:25 elliott, yep. I trust that guy more than current staff. 20:00:27 :P 20:00:28 anyway since freenode are incompetent i don't see why they'd get the facts right 20:00:33 presumably his sources are inside freenode 20:00:48 elliott, yes quite. 20:01:00 it's strange, you'd expect competence to go UP after lilo [REST OF SENTENCE REDACTED DUE TO EXTREME BAD TASTE] 20:01:24 ouch 20:01:25 lilo the bootloader? 20:01:27 ooh, netclock looks like fun 20:01:31 ais523, ... 20:01:40 ais523: yes. definitely. 20:01:43 ais523, lilo the founder of freenode 20:01:46 Vorpal: ah 20:02:16 i think the biggest channel i've ever seen was the "say the same RIP that everyone else has already said five times about lilo" channel 20:02:31 they turned on +m every now and then and when it came off about 100 messages a second came in 20:02:34 not even exaggerating 20:02:50 ais523, died in a car accident. The driver did a runaway or whatever the English word is. 20:03:06 specifically a car/bicycle accident 20:03:12 a car accident to me implies he was in a car 20:03:20 and doesn't actually implicate another car at all necessarily 20:03:21 Vorpal: hit-and-run? 20:03:56 ais523, ah yes that's it 20:04:18 elliott, he was a pedestrian. 20:04:22 Vorpal: um no 20:04:24 he was on a bicycle. 20:04:26 oh? 20:04:30 was it bicycle? 20:04:32 hm 20:04:33 On September 12, 2006, he was struck by a car while riding a bicycle at night in Houston, Texas in a hit-and-run collision. After the collision, it was reported that he was hospitalized for several days. He died on September 16. 20:04:42 went into a coma, I believe 20:05:00 night → 20:06:02 ais523: I wonder if anyone's just used C with Templates 20:06:03 apart from CUDA 20:06:04 :D 20:06:59 if for each C++ feature, there was a C-like language which was identical for C except with that feature 20:07:09 I wonder how many of the resulting languages would be used? 20:07:11 probably most of them 20:08:09 heh 20:08:13 C with Lambdas 20:08:15 C with Auto 20:08:19 (the different auto) 20:08:23 C with Different Casting Rules 20:08:29 C with Protected 20:08:37 C with More Specific Casts? 20:08:40 yes! 20:08:41 is what you mean? 20:08:44 no 20:08:52 f(x); /* x won't be casted to (void *) in C++ */ 20:08:54 you have to do it explicitly 20:09:02 C with Templates sounds pretty neat 20:09:03 (no matter what the signature of f or x is) 20:09:11 C with Long Compilation Times 20:09:41 X-D 20:09:47 C with Hindley-Milner type inference and implicit closures. 20:09:52 QCC: Now with LCT! 20:10:05 tswett: C++ has that? 20:10:13 elliott: ...really? 20:10:18 tswett: Thus "?" 20:10:27 it has type inference, not H-M though :) 20:10:29 well afaik 20:10:33 * tswett nods. 20:10:33 maybe the lambdas end up mandating it :-D 20:10:45 although you can't declare a function with auto params 20:10:45 so yeah 20:10:54 gah, why isn't there a type that can hold any other type in C :-D 20:10:58 clearly it should be void 20:11:05 because (void *) can point to anything 20:11:33 Because nobody would know how big it is. 20:11:46 sure you would, there's a limit because C implementations can't be TC by the standard 20:11:49 well 20:11:53 they can't be TC in the sense that objects can be infinite 20:11:59 or arbitrarily-sized 20:12:10 How many senses of TC are there? 20:12:26 I mean that hosted C89 is probably TC 20:12:31 but it still can't have arbitrarily-sized objects 20:12:49 it is probably TC with file IO, etc. 20:13:03 Just use a recursive struct. That will obviously solve the problem. 20:13:16 that would be awesome if you could do it :D 20:13:22 struct infinite_array { 20:13:24 bit value; 20:13:27 struct infinite_array rest; 20:13:28 }; 20:13:35 can only be fully addressed in unary 20:13:44 Yeah. There are no problems with that. 20:13:54 (array N ->value) accesses the Nth value 20:13:57 Eh, just use pointer arithmetic. 20:13:58 err 20:13:59 *.value 20:14:08 where zero is the null string, and SN is .valueN 20:14:16 tswett: pointers can only be of finite size 20:14:20 so that can't address the thing fully 20:14:29 in fact, you can't even do &infarray 20:14:33 because pigeonhole principle 20:14:46 If infinite_array is viable, so are arbitrarily large pointers. :P 20:14:53 nuh uh 20:14:57 sizeof(ptr) has to be finite 20:15:14 Yes, but so does sizeof(infinite_array), no? 20:15:15 because char has to be finitely-sized in hosted implementations because of CHAR_BIT 20:15:19 tswett: ...true 20:15:22 DRAT 20:15:27 sizeof should return a float 20:15:28 Hence. 20:15:30 so you can just return +inf 20:15:38 sizeof should return a cardinal number, so you can just return aleph_0. 20:15:44 NO 20:15:44 FLOAT 20:15:49 then you could implement turkey bomb too 20:16:23 Now, suppose you have a type like this: struct infinite_tree { bit value; struct infinite_tree left; struct infinite_array right; }; 20:16:36 it just returns +inf * 2! 20:16:51 The pointers required to address all of those things will have the order type x where x = 1 + x + x. 20:17:12 Rational numbers work perfectly well for that. 20:17:43 :-D 20:17:51 tree is at position 1. tree.left and tree.right are at positions 2 and 3. tree.left.left and tree.left.right are at positions 2 1/2 and 2 2/3. 20:17:53 also, sizeof is in char 20:17:56 so you should have char value; 20:18:10 I was just copying you. You copycat. 20:18:22 ur mom 20:18:31 hey maybe i should write an irc bot in idst 20:19:05 elliott, I think we have the potential to develop a great synergy. We can really leverage this. 20:19:21 tswett: What, your mom? 20:19:28 Yeah, she can really be leveraged hur hur 20:20:04 No, the synergy. We can leverage the synergy to develop solutions. 20:20:57 tswett: But can we do the needful? 20:21:26 elliott: think outside the box. Push the envelope. 20:21:49 tswett: Go further. 20:21:51 Reach out to humans. 20:21:54 Be humanistically synergised. 20:21:57 Precisely, yes. 20:22:06 (What is even the going on.) 20:22:41 yay, cola has been modified recently 20:22:44 (they added babies) 20:23:03 With our humanistically collaborative synergy utilized, we can open new windows to... I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll talk about something else. 20:23:14 What I want to do, I guess, is take this stream of characters and turn it into a stream of lines. 20:23:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxidKnDXwd4 20:24:09 Ooh, nextLine. 20:25:13 What I want to do, I guess, is take this stream of characters and turn it into a stream of lines. 20:25:16 that's haskell talk :D 20:25:55 What I want is nextLine. :P 20:26:02 /home/elliott/idst/object/st80/_object.st:50: WARNING: redefining _sizeof can break object allocation; check _sizeof carefully in all subtypes 20:26:03 Fancies. 20:26:22 Well that's scary. 20:26:29 Gregor: It's part of the primitive object code :P 20:26:48 I think that messages implies that EVERY OBJECT should check _sizeof carefully, though, which is hilarious :P 20:27:05 tswett: You see, cola is also a better choice for a nomic because you can even edit the structure of a very object from inside! 20:27:11 NOMICS WILL WANT TO DO THAT 20:27:15 What's cola? 20:27:27 I've heard of cola bottle babies, but I don't know that. 20:27:27 Competition for Plof :P 20:27:28 http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ The successor to Smalltalk :P 20:27:34 (In a very real sense.) 20:27:42 In that Alan Kay runs the VPRI, and cola is the VPRI's project. 20:27:48 Gregor: Competition to @ too, it just isn't at that stage yet :P 20:27:54 tswett: Basically it: 20:27:59 tswett: (1) Completely describes itself in itself. 20:27:59 "cola (aka Idst, Jolt, the SODA languages, &c.) is an ongoing project to create a springboard for investigating new computing paradigms." Drat, I should have used "springboard" and "paradigm" up there. 20:28:03 tswett: (2) Is completely implemented in itself. 20:28:11 tswett: (3) Late-binds, and therefore lets you change, EVERYTHING. 20:28:20 Including how objects look in memory. 20:28:20 elliott: do you think we can leverage our synergy to create springboards for new solution paradigms? 20:28:24 Yes. 20:28:37 ais523: Can I pay you to bring back PerlNomic? 20:28:54 rm -f CodeGenerator-local.st 20:28:55 cp -p CodeGenerator-x86_64.st CodeGenerator-local.st 20:28:55 cp: cannot stat `CodeGenerator-x86_64.st': No such file or directory 20:28:58 THIS ARCHITECTURE DOES NOT FEEL SUPPORTED 20:29:05 elliott: if you pay me rent for an appropriate VPS, perhaps 20:29:13 No wait, there's no CodeGenerator anything. 20:29:18 C nomic in the form of a self-compiling C compiler: Best idea? 20:29:18 ais523: I already have a VPS X-D 20:29:26 Gregor: Either that, or worst idea :P 20:29:35 elliott: Aren't they the same? 20:29:41 Gregor: Obviously. 20:29:47 right, there's only ppc and i386 and arm code generators 20:29:50 * elliott make clean 20:30:00 Dudes, sandboxing is the most important possible codenomic feature. 20:30:12 tswett: No, it's the most important possible MOO feature :P 20:30:15 Self-modification is utterly unimportant compared to sandboxing. 20:30:18 X-D 20:30:18 Well, yes. 20:30:37 Let's turn Agora into a game of Chess. 20:30:47 "This proposal removes proposals." 20:30:51 "Checkmate." "Okay, I... uh..." 20:30:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:30:57 elliott: BTW, do you know any reason why LXC (lxc.sf.net) plus a non-shitty FUSE unionFS wouldn't be a complete replacement for plash, but more maintainable? 20:31:07 "I call for judgement on the statement 'It is possible to call for judgements.'" "FALSE." "Drat." 20:31:10 The observation makes me almost want to write a non-shitty FUSE union FS ... 20:31:10 -!- augur_ has joined. 20:31:15 Gregor: lxc depends on cgroups, which I don't like. 20:31:19 And I don't think BFS supports. 20:31:26 OTOH, I like the idea of cunionfs. 20:31:40 So on one hand, I don't want you to switch to that system, but on another, I want cunionfs. 20:31:45 I cannot possibly advise. 20:32:09 elliott: would you happen to know if it's possible to take a stream in Smalltalk and split it into two streams, each producing the same data when read? 20:32:18 tswett: Why do you want to do that ... 20:32:29 elliott: Well, the alternative is to carve out the part of plash that depends on glibc and swap it out for a FUSE union FS. 20:32:34 So that if something wants to listen to the stream, you can just hand it a stream. 20:32:38 Maybe that's not the way to do this. 20:32:47 Gregor: That would work, but also sounds fairly pointless :P 20:32:53 Gregor: But it would give me what I want :P 20:33:04 Gregor: I would suggest writing it as an actual kernel module for lower latency though >_> 20:33:51 cola totally needs to use a build system written in cola. 20:34:03 Ooh, I just got the BEST IDEA. 20:34:15 elliott: The advantages of FUSE are: 1) The only root part is still just a program to do the chroot/setuid, and 2) I don't have to worry about enforcing permissions other than the ones requested :P 20:34:29 tswett: What. 20:34:30 But yeah, speed, bleh 20:34:36 We should have a bunch of codenomics in Smalltalk. Each codenomic should periodically pick a random class name, and copy that class out from another codenomic to itself. 20:34:42 Gregor: Well, Kitten would kinda want to use a cunionfs / :P 20:35:02 elliott: Yeah, SPS wanted a cunionfs /usr :P 20:35:17 So, Cola is completely self-describing. Does that mean that from the inside, the system looks as if it's interpreting itself? 20:35:26 Gregor: And FUSE for that sounds ... un-nice. 20:35:28 tswett: Compiling. 20:35:35 Okay. Whew. 20:35:35 tswett: And it doesn't just LOOK like it, it IS. 20:35:40 Cola's compiler is written in Cola :P 20:35:44 Also its object model. 20:35:45 Sun Microsystems introduced the first implementation of a stacked, layered file system with copy-on-write, whiteouts (hiding files in lower layers from higher layers), etc. as the Translucent File Service in SunOS 3, circa 1986.[4] 20:35:47 GOD DAMN IT SUN 20:35:59 I believe there's still a "runtime" in C, but as described in their paper, 20:36:05 the runtime doesn't define or control the object model. 20:36:11 elliott: okay, so... it's a lot like Smalltalk, isn't it. 20:36:11 http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf 20:36:22 tswett: It's like Smalltalk, except not failing at its goals. 20:36:40 tswett: Remember, this project is by Alan Kay's company, and I'm assuming you know who he is :P 20:36:41 * tswett opens up a typing practice program, and is asked to type "anesthetist house distensions nooned unstated outsets standouts nineteenths . . ." 20:36:54 Smalltalk defines a rigid in-memory layout to all its objects. 20:36:56 I think this program's estimate of my typing speed is going to be... inaccurate. 20:37:00 That cannot be changed at all. 20:37:05 Alan Kay. He's that guy who sounds like LNK. 20:37:12 tswett: He's the guy who invented Smalltalk >_< 20:37:26 (And therefore OOP :P) 20:38:33 aha 20:38:35 I just need x86_32 20:38:38 stupidest named target ever 20:38:46 hmm, there looks to be 64-bit support too but i guess it sucks 20:38:54 Maybe the builtin UnionFS is actually sufficient by now ... 20:39:15 OHWAITNOBLEH the whole issue is that I need to make sure it has /host user/ permissions, not /guest user/ permissions 20:39:32 tswett: Also "However, I am no big fan of Smalltalk either, even though it compares very favourably with most programming systems today (I don’t like any of them, and I don’t think any of them are suitable for the real programming problems of today, whether for systems or for end-users)." --Alan Kay :P 20:39:43 cola is basically meant to fix the fact that Smalltalk doesn't late-bind EVERYTHING. 20:39:53 By doing so, it ends up being completely self-reflective and self-implemented. 20:39:57 Gregor: wat :P 20:40:30 Gregor: I think FreeBSD jails might work for you, btw 20:40:35 Gregor: (prgmr can do BSD :P) 20:40:36 elliott: Yes, they would. 20:40:42 Just sayin' 20:40:48 elliott: prgmr can do NET 20:40:55 They might be Freeable but Idonno. 20:40:57 Gregor: It can do anything Xen can. 20:41:11 Gregor: There are sites with loads of howto-do-OS-blah-on-Xen things. 20:41:24 Well, what I mean is that there exist instructions on how to install NetBSD within an existing Linux without momentarily breaking out of Xen to start an install :P 20:41:43 "Testates"? What does that word mean? 20:41:45 Gregor: You could use the updated depenguinator :P 20:42:03 Gregor: http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2008-01-29-depenguinator-2.0.html 20:42:11 But it doesn't have Xen-specific things :P 20:42:11 SO UPDATED 20:42:33 Gregor: 2008-01, updated enough for me 20:42:39 Frankly if I switched to FreeBSD, it would be Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. My experience with the FreeBSD userland has been "OH GOD WHY" 20:43:11 Gregor sees a nasty userland and thinks "hey, GNU would be so much nicer" :-P 20:43:22 Maybe it's more like 20:43:24 That's because it is. 20:43:25 FreeBSD is all "OH GOD WHY" 20:43:30 But with GNU it's all "OH GOD WHY STOP BURNING MY CHILDREN" 20:43:33 and I'm an extreme masochist. 20:43:41 No matter what your silly opinion is, GNU currently has the best console tools that exist. 20:43:56 (My silly opinion :P ) 20:43:56 Best COMPLETE SET, maybe. 20:44:12 There are plenty of tools better than GNU's, they're just not in convenient packages :P 20:44:26 OK, let me make a more concrete statement: 20:44:38 "Every non-GNU program sux" 20:44:39 Nearly every GNU userland tool is better than its FreeBSD equivalent. 20:44:48 What? I can't troll that statement. 20:44:49 Plz fix. 20:45:05 /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../libreadline.so when searching for -lreadline 20:45:05 /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../libreadline.a when searching for -lreadline 20:45:12 ffff 20:45:31 I wish distros had competent multiple-architecture support that used qemu. 20:45:43 Then a sane 32-bit environment would just be s/qemu-x86_64/linux32/ 20:47:04 "Done with lesson 2! You typed 100 words in approximately 10 minutes." 20:47:08 I r typing master. 20:47:14 Wow :P 20:47:20 Are you really that terrible? 20:47:58 Can mount --bind be -o ro? 20:48:17 TIAS? 20:48:41 elliott: only with Dvorak. 20:48:52 [~/gregorsucks]% sudo mount --bind -o ro a b 1 20:48:52 mount: warning: b seems to be mounted read-write. 20:48:56 Gregor: No. 20:49:00 I'm using ten letters of the alphabet to type words that are, on average, ten letters long. Double that to get my actual typing speed with those ten letters. 20:49:08 [~/gregorsucks]% echo hello >b/b 20:49:08 [~/gregorsucks]% cat a/b 20:49:08 hello 20:49:10 Gregor: Doubly no. 20:49:21 My usual plash setup isn't actually unioning anything :P 20:49:22 Assuming that a word is actually five letters long on average and spaces take no time to type. 20:49:31 * Gregor hmmms some more. 20:49:44 elliott: how would you have lots of things listening to one stream? 20:49:51 tswett: Why would you have that? 20:50:02 I would have the bot read each line, then give it to everyone who's said they want to listen to lines. Possibly in threads. 20:50:25 * tswett nods. 20:51:13 tswett: Rule of thumb: Objects should be the only point of access to their members'... "features" :P 20:51:26 In this case, "getting lines from IRC". 20:51:30 * tswett nods. 20:51:32 And the object is the bot connection object. 20:51:54 "I have some ideas for a website but I don't have any skills in the realm of web development. Is there a site I can submit an idea to that will uphold my potential rights and ensure that no one implements my idea without consulting me first?" 20:52:04 And I thought copyright couldn't get any worse. 20:52:14 elliott: yes, the United States Patent and Trademark Office. 20:52:26 tswett: You can't copyright the idea for something, only an implementation. 20:52:26 is elliott trying to say that uncle tswett has accessed his privates? 20:52:30 He readily admits he can't implement it. 20:52:32 olsner: Yes. 20:52:43 elliott: really? Don't software companies patent ideas all the time? 20:52:49 tswett: Or do you mean "you can do it in practice, just you shouldn't be able to" 20:52:51 In which case, I agree 20:52:59 * tswett nods. 20:53:02 I thought you were saying that it was a proper avenue to do it :p 20:53:27 What do you think of overriding #new so that it throws an error, and using a keyword message to create new objects? 20:53:30 "I meant that it would be quite depressing for someone else to create a website with the same idea, that's all." ;; I wonder if this guy is trolling 20:53:38 It would be really sad if someone did this thing that I can't, so it should be made illegal! 20:53:45 It's wrooooooooong for people to think things that I've thought! 20:53:57 tswett: Make #new private instead. 20:54:07 * tswett nods. 20:54:08 tswett: OTOH, that may break the common idiom: 20:54:09 How do I do that. 20:54:14 foo := AClass new 20:54:23 foo: initialisationStuff; 20:54:24 s/// 20:54:25 bar: yupyup; 20:54:26 yourself. 20:54:27 elliott: http://sprunge.us/TSfJ LINUX: ONLY THE FINEST IN LOGIC 20:54:36 (Replace something with something; I'm too lazy to tell you what.) 20:54:43 Gregor: Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, wow. 20:55:00 tswett: Why'd you want to do it? 20:55:07 I mean, I think it's as simple as actually I have no idea. 20:55:11 Wait, you can't have private methods in Smalltalk. 20:55:17 Duh. 20:55:30 tswett: But yeah, what does your keyword initialiser do that makes you want to ban plain new? 20:55:59 elliott: well, I'd like this object to represent a connection to IRC, and... hm. 20:56:04 tswett: 20:56:10 conn := IRCConnection new 20:56:15 host: 'irc.freenode.net'; 20:56:21 port: 666; 20:56:23 yourself. 20:56:24 conn connect. 20:56:24 * tswett nods. 20:56:25 [...] 20:56:41 Is that better than connectTo:host:port:et:cetera:? 20:56:50 Mmmm, no. 20:56:53 * tswett nods. 20:56:55 Because you shouldn't be able to set them afterwards. 20:57:02 tswett: OTOH, make it 20:57:02 elliott: HALP, I'm starting to become convinced that bind mounts + chroot/setuid are all I need X-D 20:57:05 So how I'm currently doing things is perfect. Excellent. 20:57:06 connectTo: 20:57:07 connectTo:onPort: 20:57:23 With connectTo: using the reasonable default. 20:57:26 (194, obviously!) 20:57:29 (Or 6667 :P) 20:57:43 tswett: Just nicer naming IMO 20:57:48 conn := IRCConnection new. 20:57:54 conn connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret. 20:57:58 withPort:withNick:withChannel: 20:57:59 :P 20:58:11 tswett: Ewwww. 20:58:18 connectTo:withThePortConnectedToBeingThePortNumbered: 20:58:24 conn := IRCConnection new. 20:58:29 conn nickname: 'MyBot'. 20:58:30 conn connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret. 20:58:37 nickname: should automatically decide whether it's connected or not :P 20:58:42 Ooh, a nickname: message. I definitely need that. 20:58:45 And send a NICK message if it is. 20:58:50 If not, connectTo:onPort: will send it. 20:58:55 Thus avoiding TEH UGLY. 20:58:59 tswett: And of course join: and part: 20:59:04 So 20:59:08 conn := IRCConnection new 20:59:11 nickname: 'MyBot'; 20:59:19 connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret; 20:59:23 join: '#esoteric'; 20:59:24 yourself. 20:59:38 -!- calamari has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:40 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:40 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:42 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:42 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:47 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:47 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:53 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:56 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 20:59:57 -!- augur_ has quit (*.net *.split). 21:00:05 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (*.net *.split). 21:00:08 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 21:00:14 Also connectTo should probably return immediately, rather than waiting for the network to reply or whatever. 21:01:10 It doesn't wait for any replies, I think. So we're good. 21:01:59 Are you using Squeak or Pharo or what? 21:02:25 -!- calamari has joined. 21:02:26 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 21:02:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:02:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:02:26 -!- Ilari has joined. 21:02:26 -!- variable has joined. 21:02:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:02:26 -!- yiyus has joined. 21:02:26 -!- olsner has joined. 21:02:26 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 21:02:26 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:02:51 Are you using Squeak or Pharo or what? 21:04:18 Yes. 21:04:25 Specifically, one of the former two. 21:04:29 Specifically, Pharo. 21:05:01 What should join: do when we're not connected? Throw an error? 21:05:07 Add it to the list of channels we should be in? 21:06:14 -!- augur has joined. 21:10:57 tswett: The latter :P 21:11:26 tswett: And part: should remove it... technically I think basically everything should work before you connect, including PRIVMSG. 21:11:33 So you could say what you want to happen immediately after connect, then tell it to actually connect. 21:11:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:28 ais523: hmm, you can't pass a structure to a varargs function, can you? 21:13:35 or can you, if you also pass its size? 21:13:57 in va_arg, you have to specify what type the arg is 21:14:10 yes, but let's assume that you specify the right type 21:14:10 and it could calculate the size from that 21:14:12 by magic 21:14:21 ais523: but e.g. you can't pass a float to a variadic function 21:14:24 because it gets upconverted to double 21:14:34 I don't think floats get upconverted to anything 21:14:46 ais523: um, yes, they do, for varargs 21:14:57 http://c-faq.com/varargs/float.html 21:15:03 A: In the variable-length part of variable-length argument lists, the old ``default argument promotions'' apply: arguments of type float are always promoted (widened) to type double, and types char and short int are promoted to int. Therefore, it is never correct to invoke va_arg(argp, float); instead you should always use va_arg(argp, double). Similarly, use va_arg(argp, int) to retrieve arguments which were originally char, short, or int. (For an 21:15:03 us reasons, the last ``fixed'' argument, as handed to va_start, should not be widenable, either.) See also questions 11.3 and 15.2. 21:15:07 *structs get upconverted 21:15:13 I know floats get upconverted, just typoed that they didn't 21:15:16 ah 21:15:27 that was a bad typo 21:15:32 OK, I thnk you can write a generic stack_push, but only in C99 21:15:49 unless you can't say 21:15:53 va_arg(ap, char[8]) 21:15:57 or even if you can, it might be illegal to say 21:16:01 va_arg(ap, char[obj_size]) 21:17:19 void stack_push_(void *stack, ssize_t *ptr, size_t obj_size, ...) 21:17:19 { 21:17:19 va_list ap; 21:17:19 char *data; 21:17:19 va_start(ap, obj_size); 21:17:20 data = va_arg(ap, char[obj_size]); 21:17:22 (*ptr)++; 21:17:24 memcpy(stack + ptr, data, obj_size); 21:17:26 va_end(ap); 21:17:28 } 21:17:30 ais523: behold the probably-invalid Cthulian horror 21:18:29 hmm 21:18:31 is char foo[a->b] valid? 21:18:32 in C99 21:18:36 Gregor knows these things! 21:18:48 -!- augur has joined. 21:20:39 Looks like a valid VLA in general. 21:21:44 hmm, darn, I think this will fail if a pointer to an element is smaller than (void *) 21:22:35 and I need a typeof too! oh woe! 21:22:36 this is impossible 21:23:01 otoh i could re-evaluate stack 21:23:36 and wait, stack_push could just be a macro in general... 21:24:42 http://sprunge.us/hRjV ;; an exercise in pointless 21:25:36 In any case you can only portably call va_arg when the specified type is compatible with the actual type of the corresponding provided argument (after the default argument promotions); and "compatible type" is a rather strict requirement. 21:25:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:25:41 I just realized that in Smalltalk, you can save the world. 21:26:40 fizzie: Unfortunately types aren't values you can pass around :P 21:26:52 C should be Lisp, dammit. 21:27:38 Does Smalltalk have a nice way to denote a throwaway argument, like Haskell? 21:27:58 tswett: You shouldn't have them. Why do you have them? 21:28:06 (I realise I'm being annoyingly X-Y-problem here.) 21:28:20 Also the type in va_arg needs to be named such that simply postfixing a * makes a pointer to that type, and "char[obj_size]*" doesn't seem to be anything sensible. 21:28:35 fizzie: WELL YOU MAKE IT WORK THEN :P 21:29:11 elliott: because ifNotNilDo: takes a block that accepts one argument. 21:29:12 I have a feeling making it work completely portably is just not possible. (You need not have a general sort of stack to have a C, after all.) 21:29:23 tswett: Does [foo] not work as a block? 21:29:33 elliott: it doesn't work as a block that accepts one argument. 21:29:37 tswett: Also, it seems ifNotNilDo was removed from Pharo. 21:29:50 That's strange, because I'm using it. 21:29:53 In Pharo it’s been fixed long ago, and today somebody removed all sends of ifNotNilDo:, so the era of one of my “major small Squeak annoyances” finally completely ends today and ifNotNilDo: is history, at least in Pharo. 21:29:55 tswett: use ifNotNil. 21:30:02 Okay. 21:30:05 anObject ifNotNil: [:obj | obj doThing]. 21:30:08 tswett: Don't throw away the argument. 21:30:17 I don't know why you're meant to use the parameter. 21:30:23 But them's the breaks. 21:30:24 Even though obj is always the same as anObject? 21:30:31 fizzie: Err, it's not about the C stack. 21:30:41 tswett: maybe it's not guaranteed to be! Who knows. 21:30:42 *M 21:30:45 (*Maybe) 21:32:03 elliott: Yes, I see (now); but still, you could for example have an argument-passing system where floats and ints go to different stacks, and then va_arg'ing them without knowing the type's not going to be very easy. 21:32:31 fizzie: True. 21:32:32 If you're okay with only pushing objects you can take & of, you could have your macro provide sizes and pointers-to, but then you couldn't push literals. 21:32:46 Though was it possible to take & of a compound literal? 21:33:20 If you could somehow auto-declare a temp variable to use, you could & that. :p 21:34:31 "drawline(&(struct point){.x=1, .y=1}, &(struct point){.x=3, .y=4});" is listed as an example call when drawline expects a pointer to struct point. 21:34:56 Ouch. 21:35:08 So maybe your macro could wrap "x" to &(struct { typeof(x) field; }){ .field = x }. 21:35:15 (Still needs typeof.) 21:35:53 fizzie: Not if the declarer thing included a dummy 21:35:58 struct dummy { type field; }; 21:36:04 :p 21:36:13 And then malloced it to avoid the inevitable initialisation. 21:37:24 I think there was some sort of a rule that offsetof of the first struct member must be 0, so you should be able to then take that pointer and read sizeof(x) bytes out of it. (Though you need to cast it to a known pointer type before passing, either a void * or a char *.) 21:37:49 hey, they're maintaining the squeak os again 21:38:25 fizzie: The main thing was to avoid reevaluating the arguments. "So yeah." 21:38:42 Is initialize supposed to call super initialize? 21:38:47 Yes, it probably is. 21:39:11 Then again, maybe not. 21:40:13 elliott: halp 21:40:18 tswett: wat 21:40:38 elliott: should the initialize message I define call super initialize? 21:40:55 tswett: Look at some subclass' initialize message, see if it does :P 21:40:58 I think so but don't recall. 21:44:03 Why yes, I do super initialize. 21:44:54 Your MOM supernitialises. 21:45:05 More like SuperLAMEISES!!!!!!~!!!!!!!!\ 21:45:31 -!- pumpkin has joined. 21:46:07 I'M SO LAME 21:46:14 tswett: Is it not joining here any more? 21:47:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:47:05 I haven't run it yet. :P 21:48:24 * tswett runs it. 21:48:38 tswett: Dudes, you totally need to make it so you can MODIFY IT WHILE IT RUNS 21:48:56 tswett: Are you still making it hang or are you "[bot connect] fork"ing :P 21:49:03 *connectTo: ... 21:49:06 http://www.cracked.com/blog/exploring-the-mysteries-of-the-mind-with-the-sims-3/ 21:49:19 elliott: I'm still making it hang. 21:49:33 tswett: Make the bot die and do that instead :P 21:49:50 What do you mean, make the bot die? I haven't run it yet. 21:53:01 Oh. 21:58:11 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:06:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:06:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:08:22 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:09:08 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:13:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:58:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:02:28 * tswett arrives. 23:36:14 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:38:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:39:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:40:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:40:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 23:40:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:44:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:29 tswett, this isn't a MUD 23:49:18 Sgeo: what isn't? 23:49:28 #esoteric 23:49:31 * tswett nods. 23:49:36 Erm, hmm 23:49:54 It's not a dungeon. Although I think myndzi would disagree \m/ \m/ 23:49:55 `\o/´ 23:49:55 | 23:49:55 /´\ 23:49:55 (_| |_) 23:52:58 Ahh, myndzi. 23:53:03 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:09 Aww. 23:53:22 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:28 Yeah, no? 23:53:34 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:38 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:42 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:46 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:48 * tswett shrugs. 23:53:50 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:53:53 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:54:00 \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ 23:54:04 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:54:11 aww 23:54:20 \m/ \m/ \m/ 23:54:22 Well, maybe myndzi's \o/ limit is two \o/ s or something. 23:54:23 | | 23:54:23 /| /| 23:54:59 Or \o/ maybe \o/ they \o/ just \o/ have \o/ to \o/ be \o/ well-separated. 23:55:00 | | | | | ¦ | 23:55:00 /| /´\ /`\ /`\ /´\ ´¸¨ /| 23:55:13 What's that sixth one? 23:58:30 * Sgeo suddenly wants to make a four-dimensional maze in LambdaMOO 2011-04-05: 00:01:33 But every graph is representable in three dimensions. 00:01:35 * tswett coughs. 00:01:41 ? 00:07:30 I seem to recall that you could have two instances of \m/ \m/ on one line... but you do need to leave some space before the first \m/ \m/ 00:07:42 Hm, no go. :/ 00:08:52 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 00:08:53 `\o/´ `\o/´ 00:08:53 | | 00:08:53 /'¯|_) /'\ 00:08:53 (_| (_| |_) 00:09:05 There. 00:11:02 < tswett> What's that sixth one? 00:11:09 blood spatter lol 00:11:49 the limits are fairly straightforward 00:12:13 it won't accept lines that would make it output lines long enough that it increases my throttling score significantly 00:12:22 it won't draw guys that would run into each other (or my name) 00:12:28 and there is a bit of a rate limit 00:13:09 * tswett nods. 00:13:18 4d maze sounds interesting 00:13:23 Log-grepping seems to show some rather long ones. 00:13:23 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 00:13:24 `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ 00:13:25 | | | 00:13:25 (_|¯`¯|_) /'\ (_|¯`\ 00:13:25 (_| |_) |_) 00:13:30 Yay. 00:13:34 yeah, well, i can break the rules 00:13:35 :) 00:14:00 re: maze; would you have it something like, every movement moves you through the 4th dimension 00:14:04 or you could move at will? 00:14:34 (oh yeah, also the rocker dude needs +1 character on either side) 00:14:39 (for the feet) 00:15:13 i remember when i learned that angband took influences from the Amber series 00:15:30 that i was thinking about ways to make a game like that able to implement walking in shadow 00:15:49 some sort of seeded randomization based on a coordinate system was what i wound up with 00:15:59 where you could like, hold a meta-key while moving 00:16:04 and it would also move you on the coordinate system 00:16:20 dunno how you'd generate subtle changes in the environment with significant randomizer changes though 00:17:11 the idea would be to have randomly generated anchor points, solid points in the continuum that you would move towards or away from, or go by closely etc. 00:17:33 and the inbetweens would be generated somehow by a combination of parameters of the nearby anchor points 00:17:42 i think that'd be more interesting than a 4d maze anyway ;) 00:17:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:20:45 * Sgeo is confused 00:20:57 lol 00:21:00 have you read the Amber series? 00:21:42 No 00:21:47 that's why then 00:22:02 it's a fantasy series 00:22:15 it utilizes the "many worlds" idea 00:22:32 where there are infinite parallel existences you know? 00:22:42 except in this setting, there is one "true" world, Amber 00:22:42 has anyone made a game in fractal dimensions? 00:22:53 and all the other worlds are somehow lesser; shadows of Amber, if you will 00:23:04 extending outwards towards chaos 00:23:26 the princes of amber have the ability to "walk in shadow" (i think that's how they phrased it?) 00:23:36 which is essentially moving away from the true reality through all the many variants 00:23:50 it involves physical movement and some sort of internal concentration 00:24:14 and knowledge of where you are going; you basically hold in your mind the details and as you travel the world around you adjusts to more closely match those details 00:24:19 I thought there were 2 true realities... order and chaos (one was Amber, the other had some name I forgot) 00:24:22 supposedly arriving at your destination means you have to know to perfection all the details 00:24:25 Yes, that's how they called it; though the Chaos side is considered as "true" as the Amber side, with the shadows in-between, IIRC. 00:24:31 oh yeah, i guess chaos is also a true reality 00:24:38 or something 00:24:51 anyway, the point is to describe what i was getting at in terms of roguelikes ;) 00:25:15 which is the ability to navigate intentionally through "infinite" variants with various notable characteristics 00:25:37 in some fashion that is both programmable and not so obscenely obtuse that you couldn't play it as a game 00:25:45 while trying to stay somewhat true to the source 00:26:09 it shares some traits with the 4d maze idea, which is what brought it back to mind 00:26:53 it also brings to mind certain mechanical mazelike puzzles i've toyed with where certain transitions can be blocked by physical obstacles from your current state 00:27:15 so i don't know how it would fall out with random generation, but you could, say, generate shadows that are hard to arrive at because the things surrounding the path you would take to get there are physically obstructed 00:30:54 Braid does something a (tiny) bit like that w.r.t. time in some of the worlds, at least that one where the X coordinate on-screen is mapped directly to the time coordinate. 00:31:14 oh, i keep forgetting to play Braid 00:31:21 i don't do much gaming, but that one interested me 00:31:30 someone explain to me the following python code: 00:31:32 d, v = 0, [1.] + [0.] * 365 00:31:32 while v[365] < 0.5: d, v = d+1, [(a*j+b*(366-j))/365. for j,(a,b) in enumerate(zip(v,[0]+v[:-1]))] 00:31:35 d 00:32:36 more importantly, tell me whether it should correctly calculate the expected number of balls you'd have to toss into 365 bins before you get one ball in each with prob. 1/2 00:35:42 My 4d maze is a bit banal 00:36:20 what list does that enumerate thing make? 00:44:40 enumerate(["a", "b", "c"]) is [(0, "a"), (1, "b"), (2, "c")] iirc 00:48:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:50:24 The "for j,(a,b) in enumerate(zip(v,[0]+v[:-1]))" bit will in general have j, a=v[j], b=v[j-1] for j in 0..365, except that for j=0 case b=0. 00:50:55 * tswett whistles. 00:52:02 Well, that was anticlimactic. 00:52:30 * tswett tries again. 00:54:17 * tswett tries again again. 00:54:31 fizzie: so what does v contain? 00:55:53 Welp, won the Halstead award, just in time to not be able to use it for libc.so :P 00:56:09 I can't be bothered to figure out, but perhaps it's maintaining at v[i] the probability that at least i bins have balls in them. That would at least match the initial state and the termination condition. 00:56:14 What's the Halstead award? 00:57:20 fizzie: i can't even see where it is changing the value of v 00:58:21 quintopia: d, v = d+1, is the body of the loop. 00:58:45 oh, that's two assignments using the same = 00:59:01 had no idea python could be so hard to read 00:59:02 Yes; that's also done in the initialization. 00:59:36 It sets d = 0, v = [1, 0, 0, ...] where there are 365 zeros. 00:59:44 * quintopia is used to languages where every = identifies a single assignment 01:00:07 Languages without multiple assignment are annoying. 01:00:36 x, y = y, x; is a better way to swap two variables than tmp = x; x = y; y = tmp;. 01:00:37 what i meant was 01:00:46 "a single assignment value" 01:00:59 so x,y,z=5 sets everything to 5 01:01:30 Halstead award? 01:01:44 Gregor: "Thora W. Halstead Young Investigator's Award -- to honor a young scientist who exemplifies Thora’s drive and enthusiasm for science, and who has made significant contributions to the field of space biology." I didn't know you were a space biologist! 01:02:02 Wrong Halstead award X_X 01:04:10 Then you must be talking about Halstead Property, LLC, a real estate company. 01:04:40 "The E. Bayard Halsted Scholarship In Science, History and Journalism"? 01:04:50 Yup. They awarded me ¾ of Somalia. 01:06:05 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:06:12 * tswett celebrates. 01:07:38 Wait, my GUI's unfrozen. How is this? 01:07:57 -!- tswettbot2 has joined. 01:08:22 Aw, I missed my chance to do "I didn't know you were a jewelry artist" ("Through a generous gift from Halstead Bead Inc., scholarships are available for jewelry artists who want to receive business training in the Visiting Artist Program of the Buyers Market of American Craft.") due to stupid relevance-ordered search results. 01:09:02 Now my GUI's frozen again. 01:09:19 I wonder if it will unfreeze the moment tswettbot pings out. 01:09:29 Which ought to be... soonish. 01:09:40 Let's talk about fun things in the interim! 01:09:53 Like gelatinous spheres filled with liquid. 01:10:22 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:10:34 Nope, I still don't have my GUI. 01:10:55 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:13:38 * tswett runs the current version of his bot, and takes a guess at what's happening. 01:14:35 1. The bot connects to freenode. 2. The bot sends all its messages to freenode. 3. The expression finishes running. 4. The bot is garbage collected. 5. The finalizer for SocketStream closes the connection. 6. freenode goes, "what the hell did you do that for?". 01:18:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:19:29 Hi copumpkin. 01:19:37 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:19:37 I am sending a message. 01:19:38 yo 01:19:47 There, tswettbot can send messages now. 01:20:01 And I can dismiss it at any time simply by saying, "I dismiss you, tswettbot". 01:20:02 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit). 01:20:04 -!- catseye has joined. 01:20:04 Observe. 01:21:00 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 01:21:17 Let's see what happens if I put that in the topic. 01:21:23 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | I dismiss you, tswettbot.. 01:21:42 * tswett waits for freenode's annoying thingy to time out. 01:21:47 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:21:47 I am sending a message. 01:21:47 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit). 01:21:59 Just as expected. 01:22:06 Actually, I'm not sure what I expected. 01:22:11 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 01:22:23 So you can ban tswettbot from the channel by putting that in the topic. :P 01:25:43 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | tswettbot: join #python!. 01:25:54 perhaps I am hoping for too much, there 01:28:28 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 01:31:24 Yeah. 01:31:38 tswettbot knows that the people in #python probably wouldn't be happy to see it. 01:31:52 You know, in Smalltalk, I'm still not clear on the difference between using a caret and not using a caret. 01:31:58 tswett: what's it wri... 01:32:09 tswett: shall I assume it's written in Smalltalk? 01:32:38 I would certainly *like* for that to be true. 01:32:54 Smalltalk, yes. 01:33:00 Cool. 01:33:35 It looks like there's no difference in a block, since a block always returns whatever its last statement returns, but in a method, using a caret makes it return the last statement's return value, and not using a caret makes it return self. 01:34:58 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:40:26 -!- augur has joined. 01:44:31 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:44:31 I am sending a message. 01:45:34 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:45:56 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:45:56 I am sending a message. 01:46:22 tswett, are you using Pharo or Squeak or something else? 01:46:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:47:22 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:47:25 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:47:39 Sgeo: Pharo. 01:47:42 i take a 12 hour nap and suddenly you people have talked here for lines and lines 01:47:44 you know what 01:47:46 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:47:46 I am sending a message. 01:47:48 i'm not gonna read any of it 01:47:50 fuck you 01:48:15 Let's see how bad my off-by-one errors are. 01:48:21 hey tswettbot, say something. 01:48:28 if you said anything worth hearing during those hours, please resay it 01:48:31 You know what, I think I forgot to make it a PRIVMSG. :P 01:48:39 hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. 01:48:44 hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. 01:49:00 Wait, it crashed. 01:49:05 are you trying to write a bot? 01:49:23 Yep. 01:49:27 is it hard 01:49:44 It crashed, causing a debugger to open. Whenever a debugger is opened, it crashes, causing another debugger to open. 01:49:55 The result is that there are now dozens of debuggers open. 01:50:03 This is why I save the image before running the bot. 01:50:25 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:50:51 Dear Pharo: ???. Love, tswett. 01:51:16 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:51:16 I am sending a message. 01:51:28 Okay. It hasn't crashed yet. That's good. 01:51:35 Yep, still no crashing. 01:51:52 Maybe it will crash when I say "hey tswettbot, say ". 01:52:01 tswett: got tired of category theory, eh? : 01:52:02 :P 01:54:17 I like to study more than one topic. :) 01:54:41 When you go to run the bot, what exactly are you doing? Running code in a workspace? 01:55:45 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:57:27 tswett: i bet i draw my commuting diagrams with much prettier lines than you 01:58:43 Sgeo: yeah. 01:58:49 -!- augur has joined. 01:59:12 you're better off writing bots u'll never learn to draw them quite as neatly as me 01:59:16 There could be something horribly wrong with this code: 01:59:17 [[ 01:59:17 |line| 01:59:17 line := stream nextLine. 01:59:17 line isEmpty ifTrue: [false] ifFalse: [msgHandlers do: [:handler | handler bot: self heard: line]. true]. 01:59:21 ] whileTrue] fork. 01:59:23 (Yep, tabs.) 01:59:33 (And this is #esoteric. We paste five lines here.) 01:59:38 o 01:59:38 o 01:59:39 o 01:59:39 o 01:59:39 o 01:59:39 o 01:59:39 o 01:59:40 o 01:59:40 o 01:59:40 o 01:59:42 See? 01:59:46 what does |line| do? 01:59:55 It declares a local variable called line. 02:00:01 :-\ 02:00:03 okay 02:00:15 variable: are you local or global? 02:00:23 variable: I know. It will be all right. 02:00:26 oklopol: global 02:00:28 whore 02:00:36 SGU time 02:01:09 variable: you guys are bad for the environment 02:01:09 I set x to the current continuation. 02:01:12 i hear 02:01:23 I call x. 02:01:26 oklopol: not really. I'm only *considered* harmful 02:02:00 true 02:03:19 i guess you just did wulf 02:03:28 *didn't keep wulf's secrets one time too many 02:03:37 (had to check who wrote that) 02:04:09 -!- tswettbot has joined. 02:04:09 I am sending a message. 02:04:27 tswettbot: what? Where did you come from? 02:04:31 You errored out, remember? 02:04:39 me too! I'm sending a message! 02:04:47 Do you respond to things? 02:04:59 sure do! 02:05:02 hey tswettbot, say something and crash. 02:05:11 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 02:05:12 " I am sending a message." it's like it's alive 02:05:21 eerie 02:05:23 Nope, he's not handling messages. I guess he's going to stay here forever. 02:05:36 Wait, why hasn't he been garbage collected? Maybe this debugger is keeping him alive. 02:05:43 Nope. 02:06:01 I... maybe there's a local variable containing him? 02:06:26 maybe variable wanted to revenge you summoning him 02:06:29 *fo 02:06:32 *for 02:06:37 :-) 02:06:38 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:07:34 variable: thanks 02:17:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:18:57 -!- storkbot has joined. 02:19:07 storkbot: hi 02:19:08 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:19:15 rock 02:20:30 -!- storkbot has joined. 02:20:36 storkbot: hi again 02:20:37 catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 02:20:43 |help 02:20:44 catseye: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 02:21:09 heh, it still works. after i took out all that stuff i put in to try to get it to persist its state. 02:21:22 last time I grab lua code off a wiki, I tell you 02:22:57 |save 02:22:58 catseye: State saved. 02:23:01 storkbot: YOU LIE 02:23:02 catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 02:23:12 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:32:22 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:38:36 -!- Tachycek has joined. 02:38:47 Tachycek: welcome to #esoteric 02:38:52 xD 02:39:16 Tachycek: 90% of the time the topic has nothing to do with programming 02:39:18 well i would think in this channel whitespace seems quite ordinary :D 02:39:22 enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 02:39:25 but 90% of the time the topic is interesting 02:39:33 Tachycek: yeap 02:39:44 Tachycek: it's the same sort of thing as everything else 02:39:52 he was making a joke about silence i think 02:40:05 hehe 02:40:07 oklopol: no - the language 02:40:11 :-) 02:40:13 no - the silence 02:40:17 oh 02:40:17 ok 02:40:31 Newspeak got me temporarily interested in programming again 02:40:40 But it's still not all that mature 02:40:48 Maybe I should take up Smalltalk again 02:40:55 i'm on a programming course so i might actually have to program a bit soonish :\ 02:41:24 i like lolcode :) 02:41:45 but i didn't see any working serious implementation of it :) 02:41:50 maybe lolpython 02:41:56 Tachycek, might want to put on some asbestos clothes 02:42:23 :-) 02:43:35 the logs of this channel are public? 02:43:36 Tachycek: there are many 02:43:44 Tachycek: yeah 02:43:47 :< 02:44:00 Tachycek: I know, it put me off at the start too 02:44:01 don't like to be googlable :) 02:44:08 Tachycek: ditto - hence the nick 02:45:04 Tachycek: http://lolcode.com/ 02:45:14 there's currently a picture of me online :| 02:45:34 i won't tell you where before i ask them to remove it though 02:45:47 variable: yes, there are few things and they were touched several years ago 02:45:52 -!- calamari has joined. 02:46:10 well however 02:46:14 i'm tired ppl 02:46:17 so gn :) 02:46:41 gnight Tachycek 02:46:45 add this channel to autojoin though 02:47:02 if i figure out what to do with the nick i will :) 02:47:39 and mabye the mask 02:47:55 dont like link ip->nick either :) 02:47:57 anyway gn 02:53:54 n 02:54:42 http://www.math.utu.fi/henkilokunta/?userID=810 me and my giant hand 02:56:08 Oklo "Bighand" Pol 02:56:36 my full name is oklopol ominovorol 02:56:43 everyone knows that 02:57:24 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:10:42 -!- augur has joined. 03:18:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:21:37 You know what they say about guys with big hands. 03:22:42 that they even masturbate with just fat chicks 03:25:31 Gilman naming for pieces in chess variants includes all sorts of prefixes, suffixes, modified names, and possibly some pieces can have multiple names with same piece 03:26:07 in a forest nearby, there is this tree that is kinda crooked 03:26:40 Wait. Are tensors just n-dimensional matrices? 03:26:45 (looking at Wikipedia) 03:27:09 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:27:29 i don't know what a "tensor" is, unless it's a vector in a tensor product 03:27:39 Sgeo: I think so 03:28:19 Sgeo: Something like that. Tensors have two kinds of dimension, too, one which acts like rows in a matrix and one which acts like columns in a matrix, I think. 03:29:42 I find use of diagrammatic tensor notation can be useful with computing tensors, too. 03:29:45 okay yeah it's what i think it is 03:30:05 Sgeo: a space of tensors is just another vector space, the point is there are two vector spaces whose tensor product it is. 03:30:20 if you just look at the tensor space alone, it's just another vector space 03:30:44 but saying "what, tensors are just vectors??" is like saying "what, the product of two numbers is just another number?" 03:31:21 the product of two numbers can also be the same number as one or both of them 03:31:33 olsner: same for the tensor product 03:31:41 kind of like direct product, the tensor product is a way to construct another vector space from two spaces 03:31:54 yay! I know a thing about the tensor product now 03:32:09 olsner: the result can be isomorphic to one of the components 03:32:40 This went over my head as soon as you said space, I think. Or maybe product 03:32:50 Sgeo: you don't know vector spaces? 03:33:03 I know vectors 03:33:39 vector spaces are just an axiomatization of your usual vectors in R^n 03:34:43 you have a field (field = axiomatization of R...) of scalars, and you have a group on which they act from the left in certain natural ways 03:35:03 anyhow you can do tensor products without the axioms 03:35:13 In tensor diagrams, components laid out horizontally are multiplied using tensor product and vertical ones using matrix product, according to which lines touch each other. Sometimes instead of diagram you use inline math such as $X^a_{bc}Y^{cb}_d$ 03:35:44 I'm honestly not even paying attention right now 03:35:55 Sgeo: Why? 03:36:17 This is way over my head for casual glances, and I can't do more than casual glances right now 03:36:55 the point is if you have an n-dimensional space with basis e_1, ..., e_n and an m-dimensional space with basis f_1, ..., f_m, then you get another mn-dimensional space with vectors (e_1, f_1), (e_1, f_2), ..., (e_1, f_m), (e_2, f_1), ..., (e_n, f_m), which you can think of as the vector space of m x n matrices 03:37:53 Sgeo: no problem, i'm not trying to teach you right now 03:37:54 Yes 03:38:13 just saying stuff because it's fun 03:38:41 i have no idea what zzo38 is saying though 03:38:56 "components laid out horizontally are multiplied using tensor product" 03:39:07 oklopol: But I am saying too, and so are you are also correct too 03:39:18 oklopol: I mean in a tensor diagram. 03:39:24 oh indeed 03:39:28 i don't know what those are, sry 03:39:33 (Sometimes tensor multiplications are written using diagrams) 03:42:40 let U and V be vector spaces, then the tensor product of U and V is a vector space W and an associated bilinear function * : UxV -> W such that if e_1, ..., e_n is a basis of U and f_1, ..., f_m is a basis of V, then (e_i*f_j) is a basis of W 03:43:03 it can be proven that such (W, *) always exists, and is unique up to isomorphism (that part is obvious) 03:45:35 the point is to get the following universal property: if f is a bilinear function from UxV to some space X, then there exists unique g : W -> X such that f(u, v) = g(u*v) for all u \in U, v \in V, where W is the tensor product of U and V, and * is the bilinear map from UxV to W 03:46:03 so all bilinear maps can be "routed" via the tensor product 03:47:16 just like all maps f linear in the sense f(au, av) = af(u, v), f(u + u', v + v') = f(u, v) + f(u', v') can be routed through the *direct* product of U and V 03:47:30 (where again f : UxV -> X for some space X) 03:49:20 but i just know about the representation theoretical implications of the tensor product, presumably it's also useful in physics and shit 03:55:22 the tensor diagram page is way over my head 03:55:57 Yes it is useful in physics 03:56:29 but WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY 03:56:42 physics is 3d :\ 03:57:48 all you need is addition and multiplication and vectors with three components 03:57:59 and sometimes, SOMETIMES, a small group. 03:58:06 You could probably even use tensor diagrams for representing quantum computations. And even the classical electronic circuit with the latch of NAND gates, I converted it to a tensor diagram and then computed its value, I did get the expected result. 03:58:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Router failed.). 03:59:04 WELL THAT WAS KIND OF RUDE 04:00:49 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:00:58 wb 04:01:30 What is "wb"? 04:02:05 welcome bro 04:02:21 I looked at the log file, the glogbot logs does not have the quit message, it seems? 04:02:32 dunno, dunno 04:03:13 what does it mean to do "matrix multiplication horizontally" 04:03:20 erm vertically 04:03:24 but in any case 04:04:00 like, when you have two things next to each other, and draw a line from left to right, then the one on the left is tensor multiplied with the right one? 04:04:53 (and somehow it doesn't matter what bases we use in each phase as long as we always use the same ones?) 04:05:20 oklopol: Yes, like that. 04:06:09 When there are lines on a shape above and below, the lines above are called "arms" and the ones below called "legs"; the way in which the lines cross or connect to the arms/legs of other shapes indicates which order the components are multiplied. 04:07:15 mkay. 04:09:03 When horizontal, generally there are no lines drawn horizontally, because for example, you have two shapes with lines down and then one shape with two lines up connected to both those, one way to "split the diagram" is to split it at one point and then the ones above the splitting point are tensor multiplied and then that total is matrix multiplied by the one below. The number of remaining unconnected arms/legs is zero, which means the result i 04:09:46 Is understandable good? 04:10:07 "which means the result i" 04:10:27 Sorry, I wrote it wrong. Here I write it correct: Is it understandable with good? 04:10:41 s now a scalar number. 04:10:45 "unconnected arms/legs is zero, which means the result i" then it got cut 04:10:57 or did it really continue ", which means the result is understandable good?" 04:11:16 oh 04:11:18 No, it continued "s now a scalar number." which is why I wrote that just now when I realized what you meant 04:11:22 yeah yeah okay 04:11:52 i have absolutely no idea what a shape with two lines down could represent 04:12:05 or two shapes with two lines between them 04:12:42 or more precisely, i have all kinds of ideas 04:13:01 The tensor diagram does not tell you how many components there are in a vector. However, if there are $n$ components in a vector, $p$ lines above and $q$ lines below in the diagram, it has $n^{p+q}$ components in total. Now is it understandable a bit more? 04:13:28 vector? no one said there were any vectors involved 04:13:41 i have a hunch there is some key point both you and the wp page are missing 04:13:52 Maybe...... 04:14:05 which would be obvious if i knew even the tiniest bit about the actual usage of these things 04:14:33 in any case 04:14:39 i should go to uni 04:14:53 that nothing isn't going to do itself! 04:15:11 well actually i have some stuff i need to do but i guess i just wanted to say that because it was funny 04:15:20 In quantum computation, for example, there is two components in a vector, one for bits being zero, and one for bits being one. 04:16:03 so, if you want to represent n bits, you take a vector of length 2n? 04:16:21 or what is a component 04:16:39 For $n$ bits, you need $2^n$ components. 04:16:45 oh right 04:16:47 One for each possible combination. 04:16:51 yeah sure 04:17:16 so then what do you mean by two components 04:18:26 I mean, like, components of a vector! Does this make sense or am I forgetting something? 04:19:01 Except now it is components of the tensor instead, but it is the same kind of thing as components of a vector, or of a matrix. 04:19:27 it doesn't make sense, in a vector you will have 1 component for bits being one or zero, if you have one bit, you will have 4 for two bits etc, in what sense does a vector have *two components per bit*? 04:19:34 or do you mean 04:19:47 one for *all* bits being zero, one for *all* bits being one? 04:21:00 I did not mean a vector has two components per bit. I mean a vector for a single bit has two components. In case of three bits, you tensor multply the three bits together to get a total of eight components. 04:21:14 oh right 04:21:32 a single bit can indeed have two states 04:21:55 otherwise computer science would be way easier 04:22:11 And then you can put other numbers in the components, such as square root, and complex numbers, and so on, for quantum superposition states of qubits. 04:23:24 is superposition addition? 04:23:46 or umm what are you saying there 04:24:01 i thought our vectors had complex coordinates to begin with 04:25:13 or maybe i know what you're trying to say 04:25:29 this is damn hard to do informally 04:25:53 then again what isn't 04:28:30 You can write a tensor as a matrix, also. 04:30:28 yes 04:31:00 Also also Dirac notation (bra-ket notation). 04:31:23 Is used to represent the state vector. 04:32:01 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:34:10 I like to use square bracket for matrix writing, so in TeX I can define \def\bmatrix#1{\left[\matrix{#1}\right]} 04:34:33 (Which is similar tp \pmatrix but with [] instead of () as delimiters) 04:34:58 i don't care about notation 04:35:14 argh, why haven't i left yet 04:35:36 If you don't care about notation, how are you going to write the math? 04:35:38 you and your matrical temptations 04:36:27 erm, i suppose if i was doing quantum computation stuff, i'd use the standard notation 04:37:17 Would you use the bra-ket notation? 04:37:36 but sure, i'd give a five second shit to choose the one to use. 04:37:42 *which 04:38:10 perhaps, depends on the length and depth of those five seconds. 04:39:13 Probably if I am writing a TeX document with bra-ket notation I would also make up a macro for it if I use it in my document. 04:43:34 Length and depth of five seconds? 04:43:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:44:06 yes 04:46:11 -!- lament has joined. 04:52:12 Someone says that the modern TeX distribution is not properly TeX because it can parse the %& line. However, I think this is not a problem because it will not parse the %& line if the filename is typed at the ** prompt (at least in MiKTeX). But there is a real problem, which is when 18 is used as a file number. It does not turn that off when the ** prompt is used. 05:05:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:08:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:21:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:23:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:23:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:23:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:42:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:45:50 -!- azaq23 has left. 05:48:32 -!- Tachyx has joined. 05:48:56 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:50:14 -!- nooga_ has joined. 05:51:10 -!- wareya_ has joined. 05:53:07 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:53:09 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:53:11 -!- Tachycek has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:01:45 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:02:41 -!- augur has joined. 06:14:29 -!- quintopia has joined. 06:14:30 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 06:14:30 -!- quintopia has joined. 06:26:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:28:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 06:43:35 gah system log monitoring cron scripts broken, and no time to debug it now. 07:35:20 -!- Leonidas has left ("Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."). 07:37:39 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:38:10 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 08:38:12 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 08:38:16 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 08:38:16 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:13 -!- variable has joined. 08:45:13 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:45:13 -!- Vorpal has joined. 08:45:13 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 08:45:23 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood). 08:45:28 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:57:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (*.net *.split). 09:06:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:15:14 -!- sick has joined. 10:16:30 -!- sick has left. 10:28:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:38:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:20:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:21:16 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:24:10 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:24:10 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:30:22 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 11:30:35 -!- Ilari has joined. 11:46:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:47:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:36:30 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:42:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:51:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:53:37 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:53:57 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:14:53 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:21:56 -!- elliott has joined. 13:36:11 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:36:12 02:41:24: i like lolcode :) 13:36:12 02:41:45: but i didn't see any working serious implementation of it :) 13:36:12 02:41:50: maybe lolpython 13:36:18 Tachyx: BUUUUUUUURN IN A FIERY PIT OF ETERNAL SUFFERING 13:36:29 02:45:14: there's currently a picture of me online :| 13:36:29 02:45:34: i won't tell you where before i ask them to remove it though 13:36:37 oklopol: hey we all have one, from the frappr dump :> 13:36:47 elliott: HAI 13:36:57 elliott: CAN I HAZ EXPLANATION? 13:37:22 Tachyx: yes. everyone in here hates LOLCode and it is the worst and least esoteric language ever and therefore burn in your matrix off solidity 13:37:23 HAPPY NAO 13:37:39 also Tachyx Tachycek 81.200.61.23 >__________> 13:37:54 :)) 13:38:28 * elliott yawns. in his matrix of solidity. 13:38:37 flaming noobs in the morning, what a refreshing start to the day! 13:39:06 Tachyx: oh i forgot, hello 13:39:54 :)) 13:39:56 hello 13:40:15 gonna assume you've been magically pointed to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 13:40:32 elliott: ok you're flaming i'll be trolling 13:40:36 elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3n0vBcW5fc 13:40:56 THAT WASN'T FLAMING that was me helpfully pointing you to our wiki 13:40:57 JERKFACE 13:41:01 * elliott cries 13:44:23 :))) 13:44:25 trololo 13:59:47 -!- wareya has joined. 13:59:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:01:02 Float value_: _fp 14:01:02 [ 14:01:02 self := self new. 14:01:02 { memcpy(self, v__fp, sizeof(double)); }. 14:01:02 ] 14:01:04 Now that's some code. 14:01:11 tswett: ^ 14:02:31 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:23:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:38:16 Gregor: http://codu.org/myavatar.gif why did you make this 14:38:57 elliott: To be the most annoying avatar imaginable. 14:39:03 Gregor: but it's awesome... 14:39:12 you should use it. even on irc 14:39:18 prefix all your messages with 14:39:26 actually i think limechat has the ability to expand linked images 14:39:30 so basically just prefix every message with http://codu.org/myavatar.gif 14:39:42 i think linkinius did that too, i guess os x deludes them into thinking it's a good idea 14:39:46 anyway, that would be awesome, do it 14:40:19 also i logreaded a shitload yesterday for no real reason 14:40:20 16:18:42 Go write an interpreter for http://www.codu.org/plof/ 14:40:20 16:19:37 pikhq: in the C part for left, right and goto you don't set ::current, something i think might bite you with _goto current. 14:40:20 16:19:56 oerjan: Thanks. 14:40:20 16:20:11 GregorR-L: No thanks. 14:40:21 16:20:17 I'd rather do a real Lisp. :p 14:40:23 16:20:37 Plof and lisp aren't particularly similar. 14:40:25 16:21:33 Fixed and up on server. 14:40:27 16:22:00 GregorR-L: Yeah. . . Lisp is worth learning. :p 14:40:31 it was quite entertaining 14:40:37 (seconds later it was about how Emacs was an OS lol) 14:40:51 OH! 14:40:55 I saved this to troll Gregor 14:40:55 09:13:01 BSD == better server than GNU/Linux. 14:40:56 09:13:08 GNU/Linux, on the other hand == better desktop than BSD 14:41:05 (internet was out) 14:42:56 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:43:50 hi cpressey we're doign the best thing 14:43:57 trollign Gregor 14:44:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:44:28 If I use an image that is licensed w/ a CC "Share Alike" clause on a web page, does that web page count as "building upon" the work of the image, thus requiring to be under a similar license? 14:44:46 *requiring it (the webpage) 14:45:06 I ask here because I know you are all totally lawyers here 14:45:17 cpressey: depends 14:45:25 cpressey: if you use a data: URI, it's like static linking and not allowed 14:45:34 if you just use src="...", then it's like dynamic linking, and allowed 14:45:38 lol 14:45:41 i'm not joking 14:45:50 assuming CC share alike doesn't have special provisions for this, that's the situation 14:45:58 then "ironic lol" 14:46:00 linking isn't creating a derivative work, baking it in is 14:46:09 cpressey: is it 2.5 or 3.0 :p 14:46:18 * elliott will trawl through the legalese for uh... fun? 14:46:20 er, 3.0 I think 14:46:29 what country version? or unported? 14:46:33 unported 14:46:44 * cpressey hugs public domain 14:47:00 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode fuck licenses that start with definitions 14:47:04 "Reproduce" means to make copies of the Work by any means including without limitation by sound or visual recordings and the right of fixation and reproducing fixations of the Work, including storage of a protected performance or phonogram in digital form or other electronic medium. 14:47:05 PHONOGRAM 14:47:11 PHONOGRAM IN DIGITAL FORM 14:47:32 "Adaptation" means a work based upon the Work, or upon the Work and other pre-existing works, such as a translation, adaptation, derivative work, arrangement of music or other alterations of a literary or artistic work, or phonogram or performance and includes cinematographic adaptations or any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted including in any form recognizably derived from the original, except that a work that 14:47:32 constitutes a Collection will not be considered an Adaptation for the purpose of this License. For the avoidance of doubt, where the Work is a musical work, performance or phonogram, the synchronization of the Work in timed-relation with a moving image ("synching") will be considered an Adaptation for the purpose of this License. 14:47:32 "Collection" means a collection of literary or artistic works, such as encyclopedias and anthologies, or performances, phonograms or broadcasts, or other works or subject matter other than works listed in Section 1(f) below, which, by reason of the selection and arrangement of their contents, constitute intellectual creations, in which the Work is included in its entirety in unmodified form along with one or more other contributions, each constit 14:47:37 uting separate and independent works in themselves, which together are assembled into a collective whole. A work that constitutes a Collection will not be considered an Adaptation (as defined below) for the purposes of this License. 14:47:41 uh 14:47:43 cpressey: that 14:47:45 cpressey: might 14:47:47 cpressey: give you a license to use it 14:47:49 if you're making like 14:47:51 a gallery of images 14:48:03 fuck it, i'll ask irc 14:48:21 cpressey: is it just attribution-share alike? 14:48:34 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en 14:48:41 right 14:48:41 but really, it was mostly just an example 14:48:52 cpressey: oh, so this isn't actually a real case? 14:48:53 its real purpose is to make me loathe creative commons 14:48:54 i feel cheated 14:49:00 well, it's ONE case 14:49:04 but, you know 14:49:06 images. 14:49:07 cpressey: well there's http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ :P 14:49:26 less ugly just to remove the requirement from ISC though :-D 14:49:45 Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any 14:49:45 purpose with or without fee is hereby unconditionally granted. 14:49:51 except that's software specific 14:49:57 so s/software/work/ 14:50:54 cpressey: or uh wait, that's just a verbose wtfpl 14:51:00 disregard 14:51:45 I could just do what the rest of the internet does and caption other people's kitten photographs without caring about who "owns" them 14:52:44 cpressey: TAKE A STAND AGAINST COPYRIGHT 14:52:49 CAPTION ANY FUCKING KITTEN PHOTOGRAPH YOU WANT 14:52:59 fuckin' kitten anarchy 14:57:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:59:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:59:41 Does including an Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported image on a web page constitute a derivative work that forces the web page to be licensed under the same license? 14:59:41 elliott: no, unless some fancy overlays are done. But a typical image and text without any overlap is fine. 14:59:41 IANAL, TINLA 14:59:49 cpressey: it's even more fucked than i could have possibly imagined! 15:00:12 cpressey: so basically i think if you used it as the background to a page that would be close to a grey area 15:00:27 Huh. 15:00:37 I appear to be 403ed from Conservapedia. 15:00:48 \o/ 15:00:48 | 15:00:48 >\ 15:00:51 me too 15:07:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:20:21 Finally figured out how hg-git works with git branches. 15:20:25 Now I shall never have to use git again :) 15:21:17 On the downside, you still have to use hg. 15:21:33 I think you typo'd, "plus on the upside, you get to use hg" 15:21:50 Scapegoat now to be released under the "Everybody Except Gregor Richards" EULA 15:22:06 Or maybe just the "I Am Now Going To find . -name .hg -exec rm -rf '{}' \;" EULA :P 15:22:08 *find / 15:22:18 I thought that was always the license for Scape🐐 15:22:31 EULA, dammit, licenses only cover redistribution. And are also legally valid unlike EULAs. 15:24:47 hg is the one in Python, isn't it? 15:24:56 And is named after a toxic metal that causes brain damage. 15:25:25 Yes 15:25:26 *Yes. 15:25:44 It's a fun kind of brain damage though. 15:26:05 (I want to name something osmium but I don't know what.) 15:26:05 Not like the excruciating pain and slow death as your body breaks down kind of brain damage, at least in small doses. 15:26:26 What's the class of languages parseable by recursive-descent? 15:27:06 elliott: ... context-free languages. Recursive-descent essentially has infinite rollback. 15:27:26 Mind you, without memoization it's quite expensive for languages with a lot of ambiguity. 15:28:49 (Also, "recursive descent" is probably not defined precisely enough to restrict it only to context-free languages, but it's certainly at least context-free languages) 15:28:56 Gregor: OK, slight rephrase: Parseable with recursive-descent WITHOUT HELLISHNESS :P 15:29:12 Right, LL(k) basically. 15:29:15 Yeah 15:29:31 (Recursive descent may be a pain but it's less of a pain than yacc >_>) 15:30:59 -!- lament has joined. 15:31:15 Actually, writing a lexer by hand might be more awful than the combined awfulness of using lex and yacc. 15:31:23 s/awful/ugly/ 15:37:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:37:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:37:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:44:11 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:50:44 -!- Tachyx has changed nick to rofl_idiot. 15:50:55 -!- rofl_idiot has changed nick to Tachycek. 15:53:36 By-hand lexers are simple ... 15:53:43 I write by-hand lexers all the time ... 15:54:02 If you're really brave you can one-pass your lexer into your recursive-descent parser >: ) 15:55:28 APNIC down 0.12 (15.3%): 64k+3x2k+7x1k+4x256+/48 to Australia, 1M+64k+2x16k to China, 8k to Hong Kong, 512 to Indonesia, 128k+2x2k+1k to Japan, 256k+4x64k+/32 to South Korea, 8k to Mongolia, 1k to Malaysia, 4k+/48 to New Zealand, 64k+4k to Philippines, /32 to Tuvalu, /32 to Vanatu. 15:57:50 Depletion estimate: Wednesday 13th April. 15:59:20 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:59:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:04:34 By-hand recursive descent parsers are relaxing to write. Or is that tedious? I guess that depends on my mood. 16:04:39 -!- lament has joined. 16:05:06 it's relaxing in that tedious way 16:05:16 I have one by-hand lexer that I've just copied and pasted into everything, with suitable modifications :) 16:05:44 Languages' tokenization rules don't tend to vary *too* much. Except when they do/ 16:06:51 "If I see 'Identifiers start with a letter or underscore and consist only of letters, digits, and underscores' one more time, I'll scream!" 16:11:22 Toss in hyphens and single quotes if you want to get racy. 16:11:23 -!- Zuu has joined. 16:11:24 > let _6'a = 5 in _6'a 16:11:24 5 16:11:24 pretty much :D 16:11:24 * oerjan cannot recall if haskell adds anything else 16:11:25 > let _' = 5 in _' 16:11:25 5 16:11:25 > let _` = 5 in _` 16:11:25 : parse error on input `=' 16:11:26 > let (+`-) = 5 in (+`-) 16:11:26 : parse error on input ``' 16:11:26 darn it's not an operator character either 16:11:26 oh wait 16:11:27 It's used for infixing, though. 16:11:27 yours errored out at = not ` 16:11:27 right that was it 16:11:27 > let (+-) = 5 in (+-) 16:11:27 5 16:13:42 let (a b) = 5 in (a b) 16:13:42 um 16:13:43 > let (a b) = 5 in (a b) 16:13:43 : Parse error in pattern 16:13:45 that's not legal alas 16:13:45 spaces not good enough for you, huh, haskell? 16:13:47 > let a b = 5 in a b 16:13:47 5 16:13:50 ouch 16:13:51 * oerjan grins evilly 16:14:00 that depends on lambdabot actually having b defined (for its symbolic Expr's) 16:14:01 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:14:02 > b 16:14:02 b 16:14:42 > scanl1 (+) $ repeat b 16:14:43 [b,b + b,b + b + b,b + b + b + b,b + b + b + b + b,b + b + b + b + b + b,b ... 16:15:49 in Quylthulg I used $ as "identifier quotes" so that identifiers could contain arbitrary characters (except for $) ... and to make it look vaguely reminiscent of TeX 16:16:00 technically let a b = 5 is a function definition and you cannot put parentheses around those 16:16:22 oh, so b is the pattern match. right 16:16:36 > let foo bar = 5 in foo bar 16:16:36 Not in scope: `bar' 16:16:51 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:16:51 the last bar is a free variable 16:17:10 sadly 16:17:21 my mind is working on some way for that not to be the case 16:17:34 you can use about any already defined identifier instead, though 16:17:48 > let foo bar = 5 in foo (foo) 16:17:49 5 16:17:55 -!- tswett has joined. 16:18:02 > let foo foo = 5 in foo (foo) 16:18:03 5 16:18:20 now i'm all itchin' to write me some obfuscated Haskell 16:18:46 usually you want to use lots of operator identifiers for that 16:18:48 hm, this probably won't work... 16:18:54 > let foo (foo) = 5 in foo (foo) 16:18:55 5 16:18:58 ! 16:19:23 i guess you can parenthesize it without putting an @ on it 16:19:31 so it seems 16:20:18 > let (+-) (+-) = 5 in (+-) (+-) 16:20:18 5 16:21:05 iirc you can do everything with (...operator chars...) that you can do with an ordinary identifier, except put `` around 16:22:14 > let (+-) (+-) (+-) = 5 in (+-) +- (+-) 16:22:15 Conflicting definitions for `+-' 16:22:15 Bound at: :1:9-12 16:22:15 ... 16:22:17 and vice versa for `...alphanum chars` 16:22:46 > (`a`) 16:22:46 : parse error on input `)' 16:23:04 > let foo foo foo = 5 in (foo) `foo` (foo) 16:23:04 Conflicting definitions for `foo' 16:23:05 Bound at: :1:8-10 16:23:05 ... 16:23:10 > let foo foo' foo'' = 5 in (foo) `foo` (foo) 16:23:12 5 16:23:29 it allows you to name a parameter the same as the function but not to name two parameters the same 16:23:53 i guess both of those could have gone either way 16:25:00 > let (+-) a b = a * b in 6 +- 7 16:25:01 42 16:25:14 > let (+-) a b = a * b in (+-) 6 7 16:25:15 42 16:25:23 > let (+-) a b = a * b in 6 `(+-)` 7 16:25:24 : parse error on input `(' 16:25:31 but... but... 16:25:44 i said except for that 16:25:46 i know. 16:25:54 i know, i know.. but ... but' 16:26:27 > let (6) = 7 in (6) 16:26:28 6 16:26:33 >:( 16:26:51 that one works a different way because 6 is a pattern, not an identifier 16:27:16 > let (*6*) = 7 in (*6*) 16:27:48 : parse error on input `)' 16:27:54 6 isn't an operator char either 16:27:54 no digits in operators. bah! 16:29:02 > let _6_ _ _ = 7 in 6 `_6_` 6 16:29:02 7 16:29:04 haskell keeps the charset for identifiers and operators disjoint. 16:29:05 so... 16:33:23 > let (_) _ _ = 7 in 6 _ 7 16:33:23 : Parse error in pattern 16:33:24 indeed 16:33:28 > let (') _ _ = 7 in 6 ' 7 16:33:28 it tries mostly to prevent two consecutive tokens with operator chars from being likely 16:33:28 : 16:33:28 lexical error in string/character literal at chara... 16:33:29 although there are exceptions 16:33:31 > let (↯) _ _ = 7 in 6 ↯ 7 16:33:31 7 16:33:35 cpressey: _ is a special pattern and not an identifier 16:33:44 > f 1 = 0; f _ = 1; f 9 16:33:44 : parse error on input `=' 16:33:45 does the REPL not like function definitions? 16:33:48 > is not a repl it's an expression evaluator 16:33:50 * cpressey splits hairs 16:33:50 use let 16:33:54 also the ghci repl requires let as well, although with a different notation (it behaves like a giant do block) 16:33:54 it reads. it evaluates. it... privmsgs. it... logs onto irc. 16:34:03 ok i guess it's a kind of repl 16:34:35 > let f 1 = 0; f _ = 1 in f 9 16:34:35 1 16:34:39 ok 16:37:42 and neither lambdabot nor ghci allows the full set of declarations in a module file 16:37:44 > let ↯ _ = 7 in ↯ 6 16:37:45 : parse error on input ` 16:37:50 > let (↯) _ _ = 7 in (↯) 6 6 16:37:50 7 16:37:56 ok well that was fun 16:50:10 -!- esowiki has joined. 16:51:01 -!- esowiki has joined. 16:51:01 -!- glogbot has joined. 16:51:15 > let let x = 5 in "hi" 16:51:16 : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 16:51:29 > let let x = 5 16:51:30 : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 16:51:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:02 i guess that error could happen for any cause once you're inside a block 16:52:54 cpressey: the difference here may be that a do block cannot be empty while a let block can 16:53:24 > let do { "hi" } = 5 in 6 16:53:25 : Parse error in pattern 16:54:19 > let \x -> 5 + = in 16:54:20 : parse error on input `=' 16:54:26 hah 16:54:51 it looks like a let block is parsed with something that allows an arbitrary expression 16:55:22 eeeenteresting yes 16:55:33 and only errors out after the whole expression has been parsed 16:55:51 > let 5 + 6 = 11 in 11 16:55:52 11 16:56:10 > let 5 + 6 = 12 in 11 16:56:11 11 16:56:16 that's actually a legal operator definition 16:56:27 > let 5 + 6 = 12 in 5 + 6 16:56:28 12 16:56:36 that's... beautiful 16:56:57 until you try to call it with something other than 5 and 6, anyhow 16:57:08 > let 5 + 6 = 12 in 5 + 5 16:57:09 *Exception: :3:4-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function + 16:57:14 yep 16:57:45 > let f (5+6) = 3 in f 11 16:57:46 : Parse error in pattern 16:57:52 > let x + y = 4 in x + y 16:57:52 4 16:58:23 i think that error may happen when it has parsed f (5+6) as an expression and discovers it wasn't a pattern 16:58:59 there needs to be such a subparser anyhow because there _are_ points in haskell's syntax where both an expression and a pattern are permitted. it's just strange that it's used in let. 16:59:55 (e.g. in do blocks you can have do pattern <- ... ; ... or do expression ; ... 16:59:59 ) 17:02:10 oh wait i was reading glogbot logs not clog logs... 17:08:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:08:39 > let \x -> 5 in 5 17:08:40 : parse error on input `in' 17:09:24 > let 5 + 6 + 7 = 8 in 9 17:09:25 : Parse error in pattern 17:09:48 > let 5+6 = 13 in 5+6 17:09:49 13 17:09:58 > let \x -> 5 = \x -> 6 in 5 17:09:58 What's all this crap about being distilled mathematics? 17:09:59 : Parse error in pattern 17:12:56 yeah i think "Parse error in pattern" means just that, it's a legal expression in a place where a pattern is expected 17:13:56 > let 5 + 6 + 7 + = 17:13:57 : parse error on input `=' 17:14:30 * oerjan fires up real ghci 17:15:36 ghci gives :1:17: parse error on input `=' 17:16:03 so this is clearly a weirdness in ghc parsing, not just lambdabot 17:16:46 :1:5: Parse error in pattern: 5 + 6 17:16:54 a bit more informative 17:28:12 -!- gnidan has joined. 17:34:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:50:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:51:38 -!- elliott has joined. 17:54:18 16:33:48: > is not a repl it's an expression evaluator 17:54:21 oerjan: read EVAL print loop 17:54:33 -!- augur has joined. 17:54:34 oh right 17:54:37 in that lambdabot != ghci 17:55:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:55:26 17:02:10: oh wait i was reading glogbot logs not clog logs... 17:55:27 and? :p 17:57:05 elliott: so clog wasn't the one failing 17:57:12 failing _what_ 17:57:27 to record some minutes of conversation 17:57:34 ouch 17:57:39 yay for ch2 17:58:00 Gregor: whaddya think happened 17:58:23 well after a while there was a glogbot netsplit, then it reentered 17:58:30 is what i see 17:59:15 16:06:03 They use Smalltalk, by the way. 17:59:16 16:06:34 XD 17:59:16 16:06:42 Prepare for tomorrow with the language of yesterday :P 17:59:19 Ooh, imma beat Gregor up. 17:59:37 man everyone is stupid in 2006 :D 18:00:10 razor-x, what happened to her... 18:00:52 was that her first or second nick, i've forgotten the other one 18:01:00 sukoshi 18:01:03 something japanese-soun... right 18:01:06 i think sukoshi was the later one 18:01:23 BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS STUPID IN 2006 AND THEREFORE EVERYONE FROM 2006 SHOULD BE BOMBED 18:01:25 me too 18:01:28 Gregor has escaped punishment by dropping the R 18:01:33 you've escaped the punshiment by dropping the j 18:01:34 Gregor: whaddya think happened // I think glogbackup worked perfectly is what 18:01:38 * oerjan hides in his bomb shelter 18:01:43 even though that happened in 2006 18:01:53 and pikhq hasn't yet escaped so he's on death row 18:02:01 Gregor: But why did glogbot die :P Netsplit? 18:02:10 * glogbot has quit (*.net *.split) 18:02:15 It said quite clearly that it was a netsplit you dunce. 18:02:36 16:37:56: ok well that was fun 18:02:36 16:51:01: -!- glogbot has joined #esoteric. 18:02:36 16:51:15: > let let x = 5 in "hi" 18:02:41 Gregor: Not in the "fancy" logs. 18:02:54 THIS IS WHY CH2 IS AWESOME (Info messages :P) 18:03:16 That's odd ... quit messages are in fact logged ... it's like it saw the other side of the netsplit or something ... 18:03:26 Gregor: Or, it's because the baker totally fails at quit messages. 18:03:30 Which it does. 18:03:39 No, quit messages work fine. 18:03:44 ROLY? 18:03:46 I've never seen one. 18:04:01 If you look at the raw log, you'll see that it never received any quit messages. 18:04:07 Ah :P 18:05:03 Gregor: from what i see, glogbackup only entered once glogbot split. by that time messages to glogbot could have been lost for a while. 18:05:44 oerjan: That's ... not how a netsplit works. But glogbackup joins either by seeing a QUIT message, or by losing its dead man's switch on Codu. 18:06:08 Gregor: that's how a netsplit works if a server takes a long time to time out? 18:06:16 Gregor: Did you get watchdog set up, btw? 18:06:27 oerjan: So you're complaining that glogbackup isn't psychic? Awwww. 18:06:30 elliott: Yes. 18:06:45 glogbackup could ping glogbot every few seconds, you know. 18:06:56 If glogbot was programmed to not log those pings, it'd have basically 0 overhead and be perfect *shrug* 18:07:06 Good fucking lord. 18:07:07 I hate you all. 18:07:15 SORRY FOR SUGGESTING CONSTRUCTIVE IMPROVEMENTS 18:07:19 The point of glogbackup is not to work around netsplits, it just HAPPENS to work that way some times. 18:07:28 Gregor: just pointing out it doesn't protect against messages lost before split detection, is all 18:07:36 It could work perfectly if it pinged like that. and also notice when codu dies quicker. 18:09:19 clearly we must have a logbot on every freenode server. 18:09:21 * oerjan hides 18:09:32 It's amazing how I can improve the state of logging on this channel by 100x, and everybody complains that it's not 1000x X_X 18:09:58 Gregor, I'm not complaining! 18:10:07 Gregor: this ... in a channel of extreme geeks ... surprises you? 18:10:42 Gregor: 100x? that sounds a leeetle excessive 18:10:50 anyway HEROBRINE did that ;D 18:11:06 huh, smalltalk has very few tokens 18:11:16 to ken, or not to ken 18:12:20 ...don't you mean keywords... 18:12:37 no 18:12:48 i mean, every identifier is a token 18:12:52 I mean token types 18:12:58 ...ok 18:13:09 hash, caret, pipe, equals, dot, semicolon, comment, symbol, number, string, lparen, rparen, lbracket, rbracket 18:13:11 that's pretty few 18:13:47 elliott: Herobrine was at http://lolsomeIP, and had no backup at all. 18:14:08 lolsomeIP... I fail to see the relevance considering it was in the topic always 18:14:25 And glogbot doesn't have a backup that works for the vastly common case i.e. netsplits :P 18:15:58 Gregor is now fuming so hard he's actually evaporated completely 18:16:24 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:16:27 The only form of backup that would work in that case is having a bot connected to every server, on every logged channel. 18:16:35 And that's what we in the biz call "a terrible idea." 18:16:42 Then again, terrible ideas are your fort. 18:17:04 -!- variable has joined. 18:17:15 (1) With geographically-separated servers, pinging glogbot every few seconds would handle >50% of cases. 18:17:27 (2) Considering you're the one who just invented that idea on the spot, I'm not sure what's with all the self-hating. 18:18:23 elliott: It was oerjan's idea. 18:18:34 Yes, oerjan says things seriously. 18:18:40 elliott: And you can't know where the split will occur, so that won't handle >50% of cases. 18:18:42 elliott: That was to (2) 18:19:03 Generally two geographically far-away servers don't get split IME, but whatever. 18:20:39 elliott: just look at * oerjan hides, that proves i was serious 18:23:28 in order for two servers to be split, one of the (inclusive) in-between servers must fail. any other server failing will not be detected. 18:25:26 hm take the tree, remove all leaf nodes. put a logbot on everything that is _now_ a leaf node. i think that detects everything interesting due to one server going down 18:25:49 it's not a tree, it's a graph 18:25:51 how many servers that is, i don't know 18:25:51 i believe 18:26:01 um irc is supposedly a tree, always 18:26:18 hmm 18:26:25 Gregor: http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml ;; a logbot on every server would not be difficult at all 18:26:26 unless they have some protocol addition. in fact that's one reason why irc has so much netsplits 18:26:40 only about 25 18:27:03 i repeat, you don't need a logbot on all nodes, just the second-to-leaf ones 18:27:07 yes yes 18:27:09 just saying that even then 18:27:13 oerjan: irc as a graph sounds like it'd be a lot more reliable... 18:27:23 or wait hm is that correct 18:27:37 elliott: yes. but that makes everything else more complicated. 18:27:50 oerjan: "modern" IRC isn't exactly trivial :) 18:27:58 _especially_ interserver stuff 18:28:00 DISAPPOINTED BY LACK OF AFRICAN SERVERS 18:28:11 Freenode's racism will no longer be tolerated. 18:28:15 a graph means there is more than one path between two servers, so you need to do something special to prevent messages arriving twice 18:28:22 * Gregor sets up irc.freenode.so 18:28:23 yeah, and where's the antarctic servers! 18:28:38 also, the ANYWHERE IN THE AMERICAS BUT THE US servers! 18:28:40 also, the asian servers! 18:28:42 also, servers anywhere 18:28:56 man, hiato must have a blast connecting from south africa :D 18:29:25 Where's our Mars server. 18:29:40 and what about andromeda? oh wait, Ed blew that up 18:29:43 (SPOILERS LOL) 18:30:07 "The Andromeda–Milky Way collision is a predicted galaxy collision that could possibly take place in approximately 3 to 5 billion years' time between the two largest galaxies in the Local Group – the Andromeda Galaxy and the Milky Way, which contains Earth." 18:30:09 Does it now. Really. 18:31:15 Classic-style IRC is indeed a tree, but it can be configumarated to bring up backup links if one node dies. 18:32:42 But does non-classic-style IRC exist? :P 18:32:45 Galaxy collisions, for those in the galaxy, are extremely boring events, even if we could experience the sheer time scale. 18:33:09 there's some impressive numbers associated with that collision 18:33:12 they expect all of what 18:33:22 six stars colliding? 18:33:35 I don't know what freenode does. Based on how often they go all "we're rerouting things", it doesn't sound likely they'd be very automatically-robust. 18:33:56 Zwaarddijk: :D 18:34:22 A whole SIX stars will collide, and images of the resulting galaxy might even look SLIGHTLY different from a simple image blending of them! 18:34:24 Off by .1 pixels, even! 18:34:28 hm assuming that's essentially a random thing, one might ask how many stars collide in a galaxy under usual circumstances, even without a galaxy collision 18:34:33 fizzie: But does it exist in general? 18:35:45 Perhaps not, but I wouldn't rule it out. 18:35:58 CLEARLY IT MUST BE INTERVENTED 18:36:15 i vaguely recall something about there possibly being big changes in the large-scale structure though, possibly merging into a galaxy that is no longer spiral, but elliptic? 18:37:00 as in, just because stars don't collide, it doesn't mean the whole galaxies pass through each other as if nothing happened 18:37:12 As far as I can tell, freenode has done the typical thing and nerfed the LINKS command too, so that you can't even draw the graph. 18:40:51 Lame. 18:40:56 * anthony.freenode.net calvino.freenode.net :1 Irvine, CA, USA 18:40:56 * calvino.freenode.net calvino.freenode.net :0 Milan, IT 18:40:56 * * :End of /LINKS list. 18:41:03 Couldn't you do like 385734958734598345 hops to find out the graph from that? 18:42:01 It gives that same list wherever I connect to. 18:42:27 (Okay, so I just spot-checked a few.) 18:42:57 Weird. 18:43:09 So is anthony.freenode.net, like, The freenode server? 18:43:45 I guess theoretically anthony-calvino could be the US/EU link. Or maybe it's just a fakey-fakey. 18:44:06 Why return a real-looking fake link, rather than like 18:44:15 * your.freenode.net mom.freenode.net :1 Your Mom's Household 18:44:50 So, in Smalltalk, the global namespace contains true, false, nil, self, super, thisContext, string literals, numeric literals, block literals, and classes. Anything else? 18:45:20 tswett: self and super and thisContext aren't global are they? 18:45:25 They're local to whatever method you're in. 18:45:29 Or execution context, really. 18:45:42 Well, they're available everywhere. :P 18:45:47 If you just mean "the top-level namespace in a certain context", well, temporary variables and instance variables are in there too. 18:45:48 Nearly. >.> 18:45:56 tswett: But they don't have a consistent value everywhere. 18:46:15 tswett: Isn't "nil" a keyword? I may be wrong. 18:46:32 Also, literals aren't identifiers, so they're not in any namespace. 18:46:39 In conclusion, the global namespace contains classes and maybe nil. :p 18:46:53 Yeah, nil's a keyword. Just like true and false. 18:46:54 And the available-everywhere namespace contains true, false, self, super, thisContext, classes, and maybe nil. 18:46:57 Ah. 18:47:03 And the available-everywhere namespace contains self, super, thisContext, and classes. 18:47:07 Is thisContext a keyword too? 18:47:08 I guess so. 18:47:14 And self and super too. 18:47:18 So basically the global namespace contains... classes. :p 18:47:18 Yep. 18:47:22 Yup. 18:47:31 But self/super/nil/true/false/thisContext are pretty damn close to being immutable variables in a given scope. 18:47:33 So I'd count them. 18:47:37 (self isn't immutable in idst!) 18:47:47 Float value_: _fp 18:47:48 [ 18:47:48 self := self new. 18:47:48 { memcpy(self, v__fp, sizeof(double)); }. 18:47:48 ] 18:47:49 Because... 18:47:51 * tswett drumrolls. 18:47:54 Nothing is immutable in idst! 18:47:56 Right? 18:48:04 tswett: Well, I think "3" might be immutable. 18:48:11 In the sense that you can't assign to it; you can certainly give it new methods. 18:48:15 Is 3 immutable in C? 18:48:18 Yes. :p 18:48:29 That Float method is amazing, though. 18:48:32 I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you could &3 = 5. Or is it 3%? 18:48:35 s/%/&/ 18:48:38 No, you can't do that. 18:48:47 &foo isn't an lvalue. 18:48:50 What that method does: 18:48:54 First it replaces itself with a new instance of itself (idst is prototype-based). 18:49:09 Then it copies its _fp argument to itself, overwriting itself. 18:49:26 The key here being that in idst, the vtable is *just before* the self pointer, so that doesn't actually cause it to stop being an object. 18:49:37 It just overwrites all the data with the single double that constitutes a Float. 18:49:47 -!- iconmaster has joined. 18:50:37 tswett: btw, you can't do &3 in general in C. 18:51:00 &lvalue results in an rvalue of type T*, where T is the type of lvalue. 18:51:16 3 isn't an lvalue, and "&x = ..." isn't valid because &x is an rvalue. 18:51:23 * tswett nods. 18:51:32 ("*&x = ..." is valid because *p is an lvalue where p is a pointer, and &x is a pointer.) 18:51:39 Can you do &"foo"? 18:51:51 And use it as an lvalue? 18:51:59 -!- calamari has joined. 18:52:01 No. "foo" isn't an lvalue. 18:52:19 It's a literal rvalue of type (const char *). Or actually (const char []), in certain contexts. 18:52:20 Aw. 18:52:31 Or is that just (char []). 18:52:33 Can I cast it to a char * and then write to it? 18:52:45 tswett: You don't need to cast it, you can write directly; your program will segfault. 18:52:50 Yay. 18:52:56 "foo"[0] = 'p'; 18:53:05 ("*&x = ..." is valid because *p is an lvalue where p is a pointer, and &x is a pointer.) 18:53:05 I guess this is almost the definition of a segmentation fault. 18:53:23 This isn't quite true, in that that's not always valid. 18:53:30 elliott: btw, some of the bugs you mentioned in yoob have been fixed. but not all. 18:53:37 Because if p is of type (const T *) then you can't assign to its dereferencing, even though it's an lvalue. 18:53:40 cpressey: Hoorj 18:53:57 cpressey: I still think a swanky fungespace-editor would be cool :P 18:54:04 DESIGN GOALS ARE IRRELEVANT ONLY COOL MATTERS 18:54:12 there's only one runthread now, and it receives messages telling it to start, stop, or load a new language 18:54:35 but but, I _liked_ being able to make it go faster in certain weird scenarios 18:54:44 &* is almost a no-op by a special definition, though. (If the operand of unary & is the result of unary *, neither the * nor the & are evaluated, and the result is as if both were omitted, "except that the constraints on the operators still apply and the result is not an lvalue".) 18:54:45 it was like a magic/more magic switch! 18:55:07 fizzie: Heh. So &*var turns var into an rvalue, no matter what type var has. 18:55:31 fizzie: that's kind of like saying (x/n)*n=x 18:55:55 fizzie: I wonder what the heck the justification for that was ;P 18:55:56 *:P 18:56:06 Compatimability with olde compilers that literally just saw &* and skipped over the pair? 18:56:11 Optomized! 18:56:12 The rationale doesn't say. 18:56:17 I bet it's that. 18:57:01 There's another such special rule: in "&foo[bar]", again "neither the & operator nor the unary * that is implied by the [] is evaluated, and the result is as if the & operator were removed and the [] operator were changed to a + operator". 18:57:19 Does that actually change anything? 18:57:23 Semantically. 18:57:26 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 18:57:33 Or is it just because that expands to 18:57:36 &*(foo + bar) 18:57:39 which is again that special case? 18:57:41 shouldn't &*foo segfault if foo is NULL? or otherwise outside the address space? 18:57:50 no, wait 18:57:51 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:58:00 it maybe should, but it actually just results in NULL 18:58:01 no, you can't... can you? 18:58:33 never mind. i should be coding in python right now. 18:58:38 HERE, PYTHON PYTHON PYTHON 18:59:07 cpressey: i feel sorry for you igf it's any consolation 18:59:25 cpressey: python will numb your mind and retard your soul 18:59:26 * cpressey makes squeaky sounds with his pursed lips designed to attract lower forms of life 18:59:37 Good python! Sit, fetch, etc 18:59:53 olsner: WILL? 18:59:57 it's not a tree, it's a graph <-- it is a spanning tree 19:00:03 Vorpal: that's what she said 19:00:55 oerjan: irc as a graph sounds like it'd be a lot more reliable... <-- meshing has been tried. Several times even. Problem is that it isn't very easy to make it work properly since irc is multicast. 19:01:17 bah 19:01:22 let's just move to chatting over ipv6 multicast 19:02:56 There was some talk at clc whether "char *foo = 0; (void)*foo;" should segfault, i.e. whether the dereferencing should "happen". I guess the majority opinion was that it doesn't. (They were a lot more divided on whether "volatile char *foo = ...; (void)*foo;" should cause a read always, but of course "what constitutes an access to an object that has volatile-qualified type is implementation-defined".) 19:03:08 elliott, inspircd 1.0 even implemented meshing. Sure it helped a bit at netsplits, but it caused lots of bugs elsewhere. Maybe it would have been possible to make it work, but the devs decided it wasn't worth the work. Even today inspircd supports you plugging in a different server linking module if you want. 19:03:20 whoa holding down cmd+n is so trippy 19:03:21 there is only the spanning tree one though 19:03:40 Vorpal: well inspircd is lame so who cares! 19:03:45 elliott, is it? 19:04:09 it's like, written in c++, and it has that smell of obnoxious over-modularity 19:04:34 i'd totally plug a better server but not really being so much of an ircd guy i'll just say that ngircd is pretty okay :P 19:04:38 it should totally support graphs though 19:04:41 bet i could get a degree out of that 19:04:47 elliott, it and charybdis are the only two serious competitors for the position of best ircd really. Most derivatives are crap. And ircd-seven that freenode uses is very very close to charybdis iirc 19:04:52 Alternate network topologies for an internetworked relay-chat system 19:05:01 Vorpal: what's from with ngircd 19:05:10 if anyone wants to try fixing some brainfuck: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=v97Kx3pm 19:05:23 elliott, from what I remember, it looked a bit crap. What do you think makes it good? 19:05:25 Imk0tter: yikes 19:05:30 I think SILC has at least some automatic split-free fallover thing to a backup router, where "router" is a special case of a "regular" SILC server, which can only be a leaf to another router. 19:05:32 it's supposed to take an integer and print out the first 6 digits 19:05:58 Imk0tter, what's up with the first lin? 19:05:59 line* 19:06:00 Vorpal: it's portable, the code is very simple and straightforward, it supports just about everything, it's mature... 19:06:02 what's crap about it 19:06:09 not having ZOMGMODULES? 19:06:10 Vorpal, it's the input integer 19:06:13 elliott, feature support from what I remember 19:06:16 also it's small 19:06:32 oh right, you don't care much about features. Forgot that. 19:06:40 Vorpal: uhh, it supports ssl, ipv6... define "features" 19:06:48 a server command to do trout slapping? 19:07:18 elliott, stuff like more advanced channel modes. Such as invite exempt based on service account 19:07:34 +I $a:elliott would work in charybdis for example. 19:07:43 I'm not sure if freenode has that turned on for example 19:07:47 ngircd's service support is purely linking-based. so that's the services' job to handle 19:08:03 freenode lets you set invite in access flags list of a channel 19:08:04 elliott, you can't do that in the service. How would it work? 19:08:17 from ZOMGMODULES import WINNING 19:08:26 elliott, and yes that flag for invite means you can manually do /cs invite #channel 19:08:27 Vorpal: services kick anyone out who doesn't match the enabled invite pattern? services invite someone in the list who sends a message requesting them? 19:08:41 elliott, there is a delay there. Some in channel message could get through 19:08:45 ...zomg! 19:08:47 IRC IS NOT REALTIME 19:08:48 HOW AMAZING 19:09:09 if you're saying "well, it doesn't support this *very specific* feature that nobody uses, and I count any slight change in the interface as a completely different feature, therefore ngircd sucks", that's just... stupid 19:09:12 Vorpal: ircd-seven does the "$type:data" special-ban/exempt/whatever syntax, with types of a, r and x. 19:09:15 elliott, you mean: ngircd fails to do a simple check at the server that many other ircds can do 19:09:23 Vorpal: define simple check 19:09:24 fizzie, ah right. 19:09:33 you mean mandating that services use NickServ as the name? 19:09:38 or any other kind of tight coupling? 19:09:39 great idea! 19:09:55 anyway just because something is simple to implement doesn't mean it's inherently the best thing to implement... or no, am I wrong? 19:10:04 I think GNU echo should read mail: mbox is a simple format after all. 19:10:28 elliott, well in the case of charybdis, it could go like this in pseudo code: is_in_invite_list(channel, "$a" + user->metadata[service_tag]) 19:10:41 of course since it is C, it will be more involved 19:10:41 so, tight coupling with services 19:10:45 anyway just because something is simple to implement doesn't mean it's inherently the best thing to implement... or no, am I wrong? 19:10:45 I think GNU echo should read mail: mbox is a simple format after all. 19:10:59 elliott, tight coupling with the metadata in the protocol :P 19:10:59 but no, it wouldn't be simple to implement anyway 19:11:13 Vorpal: ngircd supports services in the proper way, i.e. linking to them normally. 19:11:19 elliott, which is TS6 basically 19:11:20 so is there also a client called scylla? 'cos if not, i'm miffed. 19:11:40 you're suggesting a semi-useless feature (because it can be incredibly easily done in another way with services) that involves tight coupling of the server codebase to services details 19:11:42 elliott, they still link. But it uses TS6 protocol. Same as inspircd do (though both uses minor extensions iirc) 19:11:45 and saying that on the basis that it lacks that, ngircd is crap 19:11:51 this is stupid, you're just trolling 19:11:53 bye 19:12:19 no that was just one example. *shrug* 19:12:32 and you seem to hate this sort of functionality 19:12:34 I wonder why 19:13:08 you really fail at this. You can use that same feature with another service package. 19:18:50 cpressey: i want to write one now just because it's a nice name 19:19:13 elliott: it's not just that it's nice, it's... jeez, mythology, people 19:19:26 cpressey: no, i just want to make it because it's nice, mythology can go fuck itself 19:19:40 hey Gregor did you just change the log font 19:19:41 cuz its ugly now 19:19:51 or am i just imagining it 19:20:37 hello 19:20:48 oklopol: i saw your picture, i can now snipe you 19:21:04 you must be one hell of a hacker 19:21:10 and sniper. 19:21:25 i am 19:21:28 i fucking hacked a sniper 19:21:39 elliott: Fontophiles are not permitted. 19:21:46 Gregor: did you just change it y or n 19:21:50 elliott: However, I haven't changed anything, it's always been font-face: monospace 19:21:53 Err, font-family 19:22:07 it's not about ph0ntohpilia, it just antialiased really badly for a second 19:22:08 like 19:22:10 really bad colour fringing 19:22:15 it either fixed itself or my eyes unfucked 19:22:20 I don't think I can change that from CSS. 19:22:25 No shit :P 19:22:56 I wouldn't be too surprised, they put all sorts of shit in CSS :P 19:23:20 Gregor: Yet NO FEATURES FOR HIDE-BUT-COPY 19:23:31 oklopol: We saw your castle thing, http://zem.fi/~fis/turkustle.jpg -- and didn't clean up your place. :/ 19:23:45 that's the shittiest castle i've ever 19:23:59 Gregor: .foo { display: no; pronounce: no; copy: yes } /* IS THIS TOO MUCH TO ASK */ 19:24:44 .foo { display: none; pronounce: accent(swedish); copy: random } 19:24:48 -!- cpressey has changed nick to ph0ntohpiliac. 19:25:05 Gregor: :D 19:25:09 Gregor: bork bork bork 19:25:16 !swedish .foo { display: none; pronounce: accent(swedish); copy: random } 19:25:18 .fuu { deespley: nune-a; prunuoonce-a: eccent(svedeesh); cupy: rundum } 19:25:22 :-D 19:25:35 fizzie: did you leave already? 19:25:45 no 19:25:50 THEN COME AND CLEAN THE FUCKING PLACE UP 19:26:20 although i did just do 6 hours of group theory so i'm not sure i'd feel like meeting people even if you were here 19:27:51 i don't actually let people in my home anyway, so i wasn't very serious about the cleaning 19:28:06 but you said i could visit :< 19:28:08 my parents have been trying to clean this place up since i moved, but i don't let them 19:28:16 well exceptions are possible 19:28:18 ah 19:28:21 i'm better than fizzie 19:28:22 ofc 19:28:27 but cleaning up and looking through my stuff? 19:28:29 no fucking way 19:28:34 yeah that's like 19:28:36 molestation 19:28:39 yes 19:28:40 or rape, even 19:28:45 fizzie is pretty evil. 19:28:49 elliott: Yeah, we're not very castley peoples. 19:28:59 well rapists rarely are. 19:29:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:29:12 but yeah like 19:29:15 oklopol: We was there for just a few hours. 19:29:15 how is that even a castle 19:29:19 no fucking rooks or anything 19:29:29 it's slightly bigger than it looks 19:29:36 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%85bo_slott_1724.JPG 19:29:38 A CASTLE IS NOT JUST A BIG HOUSE 19:29:48 fizzie: "1724" 19:29:57 I GUESS IT GOT DE-CASTLIFIED 19:30:15 lol turku is called Åbo in swedish 19:31:09 Well, it got quite damageded in bombings in 1941, I think. I guess oklopol can tell you lots of more of the history, he lives nearby after all. 19:31:35 oklopol 19:31:36 history 19:31:37 LOL 19:32:14 yeah i have no idea about the history 19:32:20 but i've surely heard a lot of it 19:33:14 -!- ph0ntohpiliac has changed nick to ZOMGMODULES. 19:33:23 why are none of these fantastic nicks taken 19:33:30 because they suck 19:33:37 i know some stuff about the current state of the castle, due to knowing people who study museology 19:33:54 ZOMGMODULES: i propose you snatch up one-honking-great-idea while it's still available 19:34:20 -!- oklopol has changed nick to MYPEN_ISBIG. 19:34:22 -!- augur has joined. 19:34:27 HELLOO augur 19:34:44 you can just in time 19:35:01 i'm sure this nick turns you on 19:35:08 how big is your pen 19:35:09 -!- ZOMGMODULES has changed nick to EnjoyBeingLocked. 19:35:15 oh it's pretty fucking big 19:35:16 get it 19:35:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to matrix-of-solidi. 19:35:17 fucking 19:35:20 -!- matrix-of-solidi has changed nick to matrixofsolidity. 19:35:25 YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS 19:35:29 :D 19:35:30 EnjoyBeingLocked: please do /me in your 19:35:41 -!- matrixofsolidity has changed nick to MatrixOfSolidity. 19:35:43 EnjoyBeingLocked: plz 19:35:44 * EnjoyBeingLocked in your 19:35:47 * MatrixOfSolidity 19:35:50 :DDDDDDDDDDDDD 19:35:57 that was pretty awesome 19:35:58 we are so lame 19:36:00 anyone semi-fluent with brainfuck? 19:36:03 i'm not worthy 19:36:05 -!- MYPEN_ISBIG has changed nick to oklopol. 19:36:08 Imk0tter: yep, but none of us jokers 19:36:29 omg we should have a con 19:36:30 and call it 19:36:37 EnjoyBeingLockedInYourMatrixOfSolidityCon 19:36:39 Imk0tter: what's "fluent"? that's sort of relative 19:36:40 MatrixOfSolidity, how would i subtract 1 from v1 and v2 until one of them is 0 19:36:47 EnjoyBeingLocked: TEN TIMES BETTER THAN PYCON AMIRITE 19:36:52 Imk0tter: hmm 19:36:56 MatrixOfSolidity, either or 19:36:56 so v2 is right after v1 right 19:36:58 yes 19:37:07 we need to keep a pair of bots around for just this purpose 19:37:21 Imk0tter: >>[<[-<->>]] 19:37:26 Imk0tter: tape must be (v1,v2,scrap) 19:37:29 scrap must be 0 19:37:33 that should work 19:37:34 okay 19:37:35 that does nothing 19:37:39 er right 19:37:40 INDEED 19:37:46 but otherwise it's pretty nice 19:37:47 ok wait 19:38:00 Imk0tter: [>[-<->>]<<] 19:38:02 same tape requirement 19:38:08 i... think this should work 19:38:21 well. i'm not going to comment on that. 19:38:26 :D 19:38:28 oh wait 19:38:37 hmm 19:38:42 oklopol: are you _sure_ that's wrong 19:38:56 !bf8 ,>,<[>[-<->>]<<]!ab 19:39:03 !bf8 ,>,<[>[-<->>]<<].>.!ab 19:39:07 X_X 19:39:09 !bf ,>,<[>[-<->>]<<].>.!ab 19:39:15 hey Gregor, who let the dogs out 19:39:22 well i have no idea why it would work 19:39:32 hmm 19:39:34 actually 19:39:47 EgoBot !bf has never accepted !input. 19:39:48 oklopol: well "while (v1) { while (v2) { v2--; v1--; go to scrap }; go back to v1 }" 19:40:04 Gregor: well how do i get inputs in, that stupid input system thing? :D 19:40:12 oklopol: looks right to me at least 19:40:12 MatrixOfSolidity, v1 can go negative 19:40:14 MatrixOfSolidity: How's that going to terminate the outer loop when v2 is 0. 19:40:14 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:40:17 MatrixOfSolidity: Nope, that's gone. You don't. 19:40:24 fizzie: uh. good question. 19:40:25 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:40:28 Gregor: That...sucks? 19:40:33 Imk0tter: no such thing as negative in bf 19:40:36 MatrixOfSolidity: Too bad. 19:40:47 Gregor: So much for EgoBot the useful esolang execution bot :P 19:40:48 MatrixOfSolidity, eh? 19:40:48 -!- fungot has joined. 19:40:51 Imk0tter: cells are 0 to 255 inclusive 19:41:00 MatrixOfSolidity: the interpreter i'm using uses 32bit integers 19:41:09 that CAN go negative 19:41:09 that interpreter sucks, get a new one :) 19:41:15 ^bf ,>,<[>[-<->>]<<].>.!ab 19:41:27 well i suppose i should fix that loop first! 19:41:27 :DD 19:41:33 fizzie: how it terminates is it moves to the left of v1, because it doesn't enter the inner loop 19:41:37 ...that's true! 19:41:42 so the requirement is actually (0,v1,v2,0) 19:41:44 and you should do > right after 19:41:55 MatrixOfSolidity, let's assume there is no negative 19:42:01 ^bf >,>,<[>[-<->>]<<]>.>.!ab 19:42:02 19:42:05 tada! 19:42:09 ^bf >,>,<[>[-<->>]<<]>.>.!ab 19:42:10 19:42:15 it turns into ctcp :P 19:42:19 Imk0tter: let's say the tape is (0, v1, v2, 0) 19:42:30 Imk0tter: then >[>[-<->>]<<]> will do what you want 19:42:32 ending up on the v1 cell 19:42:35 actually 19:42:39 the first value can be whatever 19:42:40 doesn't have to be 0 19:42:44 or... 19:42:44 yes it does 19:42:46 it has to be 0 19:42:51 ^bf >,>,<[>[-<->>]<<]>.>.!ba 19:42:51 19:42:56 * Received a CTCP from fungot (to #esoteric) 19:42:57 MatrixOfSolidity: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ chrono/ zzo38/ mainpage the actual ui has something to do that anyway 19:42:58 it does work :) 19:43:01 the only problem is you don't know where you stop, but that's kinda easy 19:43:05 it just doesn't output properly 19:43:11 oklopol: er, yes you do? 19:43:12 oh wait 19:43:14 no you don't 19:43:14 MatrixOfSolidity 19:43:16 yeah that's kinda :/ 19:43:19 oh well oklopol can fix it 19:43:23 it's very easy 19:43:39 indeed 19:43:41 i suck at bf though 19:43:45 -!- MatrixOfSolidity has changed nick to elliott. 19:43:45 i mean, at least if you don't care about size 19:43:53 -!- oklopol has changed nick to ICAREABOUTSIZE. 19:43:59 -!- ICAREABOUTSIZE has changed nick to oklopol. 19:44:01 elliott 19:44:03 i realized that was retarded 19:44:05 anyhow 19:44:18 Imk0tter: why do you keep pinging me without any message 19:44:22 err sorry 19:44:27 i forgot what i was going to say 19:44:35 EnjoyBeingLocked: [[This is quite true, you won't find ones complement. IBM pushed this through. In the early years, Mathematicians dominated the field. In the one's complement setup, a negative zero can result. "BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING !!" the mathematicians exclaim. That always tickled me. They go along with all kinds of obscure and arcane advances, like "imaginary" numbers. But this they couldn't 19:44:35 swallow.]] 19:44:38 !ba puts v0 and v1 to b and a respectively 19:44:39 right? 19:44:53 if you don't care, you can just walk say two steps left, and have (0, 1, 0, v_1, v_2, 0), then search for the leftmost 0 19:44:53 :DD 19:45:00 Imk0tter: it does nothing, that's just input syntax 19:45:05 prog!input means "run prog with input" 19:45:16 ohh im slow 19:45:17 l0l 19:45:41 yeah do what oklopol said I guess :P 19:45:44 what do you want this for anyway 19:45:47 to compute |a-b|? 19:45:57 or err 19:45:59 hmm 19:49:58 EnjoyBeingLocked: definitely gonna go for tedious, not relaxing 19:50:10 well 19:50:16 defining an ast structure might be even more tedious actually 19:55:11 -!- EnjoyBeingLocked has changed nick to ZOMGMODULES. 19:56:12 elliott: depends on the language 19:56:20 ZOMGMODULES: C 19:56:27 not sure _why_ C, but C 19:56:29 i dunno man, should be relaxing 19:56:47 it's like drumming... it has a cadence 19:56:51 i...'ve never even really thought of C as anything that i could possibly ever file under relaxing 19:57:00 you're speaking english, right? 19:57:01 THIS IS THE WISDOM OF ZOMGMODULES. HEED IT 19:57:20 well it's possibly made worse by the fact that it's a programming language I'm specifying. 19:57:35 like, damn, this would be so much easier if i could just write the compiler in itself and use it without any bootstrapping! 19:57:37 your grammar is pretty much established? 19:57:58 you wrote it out? on paper? 19:58:04 ZOMGMODULES: well, the bootstrap grammar is pretty much established. i'm not going to try fun stuff until i rewrite the compiler in the language. 19:58:08 Fun: HFCS at half soda concentration vs. Table sugar at full soda concentration. 19:58:14 i...write it out, no, but I've pretty much stolen Smalltalk's grammar 19:58:16 for now 19:58:41 you need to write it out, preferably on paper but also in a comment block at the top of the source is acceptable, or it won't be relaxing. 19:59:05 really? 19:59:10 this is the wisdom 19:59:13 (And no, that wasn't study from corn refiner's association).. 19:59:45 ZOMGMODULES: pretty impressive ass you have there, with all the ideas you pull out of it ;;;;::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddddddddddd 19:59:51 sorry sorry *wisdom 19:59:59 ;DDDDDDd 20:00:00 dd 20:00:24 hmm, parsing smalltalk is actually quite a pain 20:00:43 because of (foo a: b) vs. (foo a: b c: d). 20:02:34 hmm 20:02:36 elliott, the only problem with your example is that you don't know which variable is the one that's not empty 20:02:52 Imk0tter: well like oklopol said, if you just put a 1 after some 0s you can synchronis 20:02:53 e 20:03:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:03:03 ZOMGMODULES: with yacc-like things, if you have like, [a; b; c] and {a; b; c} both as blocks 20:03:05 do you need two rules 20:03:09 'cuz one ends with RBRACKET and the other RBRACE 20:03:14 oh wait 20:03:15 you can just do 20:03:17 foo ::= . 20:03:17 cute! 20:04:56 * ZOMGMODULES ACKNOWLEDGES NOT THESE "YACC-LIKE THINGS" 20:05:15 ZOMGMODULES: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU WRITE THIS PARSER RECURSIVE-DESCENT 20:05:19 MOSTLY BECAUSE IT WOULD SAVE ME FROM DOING SO 20:06:34 woo i totally have it down apart from like 20:06:35 operators 20:06:37 and method calls 20:06:38 i.e. everything 20:07:19 void parse() { if(tokeq("["){expect("["); parse_list(); expect("]");} else if (tokeq("{"){expect("{"); parse_list(); expect("}");} else error(); } 20:07:28 ZOMGMODULES: no i don't mean that 20:07:32 i mean 20:07:34 the entire grammar 20:07:53 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:07:56 void parse_list() { parse_elem(); while(tokeq(";")){ expect(";"); parse_elem(); } } 20:08:21 program := exprs. expr := #ident | ^expr | (expr) | [block] | ident := expr | message | literal. 20:08:38 block := (optional: | var var var ... |) expr . block | expr | 20:08:49 message := dem smalltalk thangles 20:08:53 ;_; 20:09:02 i'd love to, it's very relaxing. unfortunately, can't spend all day here 20:09:19 though 'dem smalltalk thangles' is a little underspecified for my taste 20:09:55 ZOMGMODULES: message is expr messagepart* 20:10:08 messagepart is either ident without :, or ident ending in : and having no other :s in it followed by an expr 20:10:22 fucking ugly to specify because you have to have constraints on the ident inside the actual thing 20:10:35 oh and it's messagepart+, not *. 20:10:36 obviously. 20:11:24 http://sprunge.us/jbMF hey i think i did it 20:11:42 hey oklopol 20:11:53 can you help me out here, because i don't really understand your example ;\ 20:12:23 i'm trying to divide v1 by v2, but the problem i'm having is that v1 goes negative and the loop never ends 20:12:24 erm just that elliott's code can end on top of either the leftmost 0 or v1 if you start with (0, _v1_, v2, 0) 20:12:29 i would just accept ident or ident: interchangeably and filter out the bad stuff at the static analysis phase 20:12:33 if that's legal 20:12:41 ZOMGMODULES: oh that's not the problem 20:12:51 hey,... ghci's "let" does something like that, right oerjan? 20:12:54 the problem is that some dickhead could say "foo a:b: c" 20:12:55 and actually 20:13:00 "foo a:b c:d" should parse properly 20:13:02 if it's good enough for ghci it's good enough for me 20:13:06 but that a:b and c:d will parse as one ident 20:13:07 euuurgh 20:13:15 maybe i should have two types of ident 20:13:17 ident and symbol 20:13:18 symbol allows :s 20:13:19 elliott: that's a dumb grammar 20:13:20 so just move two steps left and then do a search to the left for a 0, have 0, 1, 0, v1, v2, 0 as the initial tape 20:13:20 ident doesn't 20:13:24 then you'll know where the head is 20:13:25 ZOMGMODULES: that's smalltalk 20:13:33 ZOMGMODULES: really :s are banned in identifiers altogether 20:13:36 ZOMGMODULES: it's just that they're valid _symbols_ 20:13:37 "That's our Smalltalk!" 20:13:39 i.e. #foo:bar: is an ok symbol 20:13:43 * ZOMGMODULES canned laughter 20:13:46 but foo:bar: is so not an ok identifier. 20:13:50 you won't know which one went to zero, but you can check that by looking at them... 20:13:52 so really what i need to do is handle # at the lexer phase 20:14:00 turn #foo:bar: into SYMBOL("foo:bar:") 20:14:10 and turn foo:bar: into IDENT("foo") COLON IDENT("bar") COLON 20:14:13 yeah that's much nicer 20:14:19 this is pretty much why i never got into smalltalk 20:14:30 this very part of it seemed unnecessarily brutal 20:14:36 what par 20:14:37 t 20:14:42 :'s 20:14:44 anyway it was my token's fault :) 20:14:49 for not distinguishing idents and symbols 20:14:58 ZOMGMODULES: hmm, i dunno 20:15:00 how's it brutal 20:15:11 you mean like how you can't arrange parts? 20:15:21 oh and really i want a multi-dispatch thing but that's too much for my brain to jam together right now 20:15:33 i think i'll finish writing up this yacc-style grammar then recursive descend on it 20:15:34 my brain just does not think like that 20:16:02 ZOMGMODULES: well, it's nicer than /python's/ approach to the "argument positions are meaningless" problem. 20:16:05 using the same label mechanism for all those things 20:16:11 eh? 20:16:15 sorry, i don't get you :) 20:16:23 whaddya mean 20:16:26 that's ok. it's been a long time and i don't remember 20:16:43 ok now the grammar is perfectly sanified 20:16:47 apart from being left-recursive. 20:16:57 i don't even know how you're meant to do 20:17:05 expr ::= IDENT EQUALS expr 20:17:06 oh wait 20:17:08 that's not left-recursive :D 20:17:14 body(A) ::= expr(B) DOT body(C). {...;} 20:17:14 body(A) ::= expr(B). {...;} 20:17:14 body(A) ::= . {...;} 20:17:17 and that looks... kind of easy? 20:17:25 well 20:17:25 dunno 20:17:28 maybe kinda hard 20:19:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:19:35 oh dear 20:19:40 i broke the CHIQRSX9+ article 20:19:46 it is now impossible to access it 20:19:48 thanks, MediaWiki! 20:19:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9%2B ;; click for fun 20:22:06 I do not know if I agree with the sentiment that adding a random number to every character in your program and interpreting it as Perl counts as your language being "Turing-complete" 20:22:40 um, it _is_ a joke 20:22:49 oh cool 20:22:52 it can be accessed from http://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus 20:22:56 which doesn't do a hard redirect 20:23:14 still can't be moved though 20:23:15 impressi 20:23:16 ve 20:23:32 aha 20:23:32 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CHIQRSX9%2B 20:23:56 fixed! 20:24:10 elliott 20:24:12 i'm stuck here 20:24:19 can you help me out mate 20:24:21 Imk0tter: what was wrong with oklopol's solution? 20:24:29 i don't understand how it works 20:24:32 lol 20:25:00 therefor i can't write it out 20:26:10 well assuming you have 0 1 0 v1 v2 0 just do elliott's, and then append <<[<] 20:26:12 hey,... ghci's "let" does something like that, right oerjan? <-- well that's what it looked like... 20:26:22 int block() { 20:26:22 if (accept(PIPE)) 20:26:22 while (1) 20:26:22 if (accept(PIPE)) 20:26:22 break; 20:26:23 else if (!accept(IDENT)) 20:26:24 return 0; 20:26:26 ZOMGMODULES: look at dat lack of braces 20:27:57 C needs a ";;" operator that is a high-precedence ";" to avoid the need for braces 20:28:10 ZOMGMODULES: and we could call it ocaml 20:28:12 if (x==y) printf("hi") ;; printf("there") 20:28:20 can you stack ;s arbitrarily? 20:28:22 that would be awesome 20:28:30 oh uh 20:28:31 SURWE 20:28:34 *SURE 20:28:41 so basically, if/while/etc. are { 20:28:43 the more ;'s the higher the precedence 20:28:51 and ;^(n+1) is }^n 20:28:54 well 20:28:55 ;}^n 20:28:58 SORRY TO BREAK YOUR DREAMS 20:29:11 yeah that's not quite my vision 20:29:16 :D 20:29:19 sorry for tarnishing it 20:29:22 obfuscated c and metalanguage 20:29:29 omg having comments in the ast is the best idea ever 20:29:31 like 20:29:38 okay so you can't just put comments in ANY old place now 20:29:40 but like 20:29:41 like 20:29:43 like!!! 20:29:50 it's like docstrings, except not stupid! 20:30:52 apparently richard dawkins is on the vpri board of advisors 20:30:52 WHO KNEW 20:30:59 oh wait 20:31:00 that's like 20:31:02 the actual richard dawkins 20:31:07 thought it was just some guy with the same name 20:31:21 heh 20:31:32 wonder why he's on the board? 20:31:49 -!- gnidan has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:32:03 http://www.vpri.org/images/people/board/vpri_ppl_24.jpg 20:32:04 http://www.vpri.org/images/people/board/vpri_ppl_20.jpg 20:32:06 with these kinds of beards 20:32:10 http://www.vpri.org/images/people/board/vpri_ppl_07.jpg 20:32:15 why hasn't vpri invented the next big language yet! 20:32:44 http://piumarta.com/cv/xyzzy.jpg 20:32:45 oh gosh 20:32:50 maybe they've had a beard overflow 20:32:55 leaving them with negative beard 20:33:41 "Ian assembled and ran his first program at the age of 13 on a DEC PDP-10" ;; what kinda 13 year old gets access to a pdp-10 20:36:14 What's vpri? 20:36:26 the Viewpoints Research Institute 20:37:33 they do research on viewpoints 20:37:51 yes. actually i think they prefer the acronym VRI but i like vpri better. also it's their domain name 20:37:56 "We found that a certain percentage of the population hold one opinion, while the rest hold another." 20:38:01 "prefer" = their web page uses VRI 20:38:14 ZOMGMODULES: careful. alan kay might punch you 20:38:15 Who's ZOMGMODULES 20:38:23 If your eventual skill at something is determined by the age at which you pick it up, then my calling is definitely programming. 20:38:24 * ZOMGMODULES IS ZOMGMODULES 20:38:43 tswett: Not, say, using the toilet? 20:38:43 Phantom_Hoover YOU ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS 20:38:51 You must have been programming pretty early on, then. 20:39:05 Your point has goodness. 20:39:31 If your eventual skill at a trade or art is determined . . . programming. 20:39:59 Phantom_Hoover PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TRY /whois 20:40:00 wat 20:40:06 tswett: Did you just ELIDE LOGIC 20:40:23 elliott: I assume you can figure out what my ellipsis represents. 20:40:25 ZOMGMODULES! 20:40:25 ZOMGMODULES: wait your name is Christopher? kinda assumed you were always just Chris THIS IS LOGICAL OK 20:41:11 who's ZOMGMODULES? 20:41:20 olsner: Z. Omg Modules 20:41:24 He's not Christ; he's the -opher of Christ. 20:41:25 the Z stands for Christopher 20:41:26 olsner, who else do I greet with exclamations! 20:41:31 Phantom_Hoover: your mom 20:41:35 tswett, that's actually the etymology. 20:41:37 Literally. 20:41:42 I'll opher YOUR Christ 20:41:49 Phantom_Hoover: yes, I just looked it up. :) 20:42:15 It's funny how "Christopher" is sometimes shortened to "Chris" and sometimes to "Topher". 20:42:18 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Christopher_icon.jpg 20:42:30 tswett: FSVO sometimes equal to never. 20:42:35 elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. 20:42:35 ZOMGMODULES, you're named after a werewolf. 20:42:44 ZOMGMODULES: So, like your parents then? 20:42:45 HA HA HA 20:42:52 `addquote elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. 20:42:55 351) elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. 20:43:04 that was quotable? 20:43:09 well i laughed. 20:43:18 It's like... it's like someone who invents the name "Wafflecarrot" based on the words "waffle" and "carrot", and then people named Wafflecarrot start being called Waff and Lecarrot. 20:43:22 i swear, with our powers combined, together #esoteric is a mediocre comedian that doesn't know when to shut up and doesn't know when it's being funny or not 20:43:23 That was an awful analogy on my part. I apologize. 20:43:25 we could capitalise on this 20:43:28 Most amusing thing: take male names and add -ina. 20:43:38 If it's common enough you get a legitimate female name. 20:43:42 tswett: WHO SHORTENS CHRISTOPHER TO TOPHER 20:43:48 Phantom_Hoover: Christopherina 20:43:50 elliott: Topher Grace? 20:43:54 elliott: ask Topher Grace's shortners. 20:43:56 s//e/ 20:43:56 elliottina 20:43:59 jackina 20:44:06 Tannerina. 20:44:10 tannerina is catchy 20:44:11 phantomina 20:44:13 oklopol: villeina 20:44:17 Oerjanina 20:44:17 ;DDDDD 20:44:23 Hooverina 20:44:27 was gonna go for phantomina 20:44:28 The female form of Tanner is Tanress. :P 20:44:28 hooverina is nice 20:44:29 but oklopol preempted me 20:44:31 Phantom_Hoover: Which werewolf would that be? 20:44:34 oklorina of time 20:44:37 Vagina 20:44:41 you know, all those men named Vag 20:44:52 ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. 20:44:56 olsnerina 20:44:56 Oerjanina <-- In Swedish (and possibly Norwegian) you would add -ida instead 20:44:59 olsner: your real name is olsner right 20:45:00 Phantom_Hoover: this is news to me 20:45:06 elliott: nope 20:45:14 Phantom_Hoover, at least quite often 20:45:16 `addquote ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. 20:45:17 352) ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. 20:45:18 SO FUNNY TODAY 20:45:28 Arvidida. 20:45:30 olsner: what is it then!!!! 20:45:33 Phantom_Hoover: *ina 20:45:37 Arvidina 20:45:40 BASICALLY THIS "-INA" THING IS TOTAL BULLSHIT 20:45:42 o 20:45:42 o 20:45:42 o 20:45:42 o 20:45:42 o 20:45:44 o 20:45:44 o 20:45:44 o 20:45:44 o 20:45:47 oina 20:45:47 Phantom_Hoover, "Arvida" though exists. I think it gets combined in there. 20:46:01 you know why i did that oing 20:46:04 Adamhnanina. 20:46:19 because i was like OMG IF I SPAM NOW I'LL GET TO SEE 23:45:67 20:46:23 IN THE TIME STAMPMGEG 20:46:46 My mom's name is Peggy because one of her parents wanted her to be named Margaret, and the other threatened to call her Maggie if they did that. 20:46:48 It was, like... 20:46:50 tswett: hey the HA HA HA is supposed to come _after_ the wafflecarrot. know your memes! 20:46:51 Phantom_Hoover: so what's your second name! 20:47:09 McHoover. 20:47:15 ooh, I've become less googleable since last time I tried 20:47:16 tswett: is her second name Sue DID BUDDY HOLLY MAKE A SONG ABOUT YOUR MOTHER 20:47:18 you know why i asked that 20:47:19 because 20:47:20 your mom 20:47:23 is SO OLD 20:47:24 also: FAT 20:47:29 i'm so smooth 20:47:36 Phantom_Hoover: Adamhnan McHoover. best name 20:47:52 "I want to name her Margaret." "I will not let you do that. If you do, I will have to release the ultimate weapon... CALLING HER MAGGIE." "No! ANYTHING but Maggie! We'll name her Peggy, how's that?" "Fine by me." 20:47:57 elliott: nobody knows what her second name is. 20:48:15 should have called her Adamhnanina 20:48:22 maybe that's the origin of Nina 20:48:24 nobody can disprove that! 20:49:05 I'm glad that this channel never quotes Internet memes. 20:49:27 tswett: no u 20:49:32 See? 20:49:35 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:49:40 The example that proves the rule. 20:49:40 it's possibly the best thing about this channel 20:49:40 tswett, all your meme are not belong to us. 20:49:47 peggy could be short for peregrina 20:49:57 Phantom_Hoover just demonstrated the exception that proves the rule. 20:49:59 Oerjanina <-- In Swedish (and possibly Norwegian) you would add -ida instead <-- i don't think femininizing Ørjan really works with any suffix, although possibilities include -a, -e and -ine. 20:50:03 Everything proves the rule, you see. I'm right no matter what. 20:50:08 your mom proves the rule 20:50:14 Precisely. 20:50:20 oerjan: so basically Ørjan is already as female as it gets? 20:50:34 elliott, nah, it's the \omega of manliness. 20:51:23 Why is this subreddit all read? (self.Norway) 20:51:23 Just thinking, why not make it a little blue and white and fjords and snowmen and stuff? 20:51:27 oerjan: WAS THIS YOUR DOING 20:51:27 Not Ørjanette? 20:51:48 The best way to feminize a name is by taking off the -er and replacing it with -ress. 20:51:56 The great thing about that way is that it works for ANY NAME. 20:52:00 Adamhnan(ANTI-ER)ress 20:52:05 HOORAY FOR ANTISTRINGS 20:52:08 Phantom_Hoovress. olsnress. See? 20:52:19 olsnress is an impressive name, pronunciation-wise 20:52:43 ZOMGMODULES: hm that might also work 20:53:02 Adamhnanr^-1e^-1ress. 20:53:07 Letters form a group, right? 20:53:08 olshfpngress 20:53:52 tswett: erm, they are not even closed under multiplication 20:54:06 Letters generate a group, right? 20:54:19 but nothing wrong with doing english over the free group 20:54:34 int block() { 20:54:35 if (accept(PIPE)) 20:54:35 while (!accept(PIPE)) 20:54:35 if (!accept(IDENT)) 20:54:35 return 0; 20:54:39 while (expr() && accept(DOT)); 20:54:41 expr(); /* optional */ 20:54:43 yeah they form the free group with base size 26 20:54:43 return 1; 20:54:45 } 20:54:47 hmm, that might be right 20:55:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:56:28 ZOMGMODULES: IS THAT RIGHT, O WISE RECURSIVELY-DESCENDING MASTER 20:56:32 maybe i'll write the better kind of parser 20:56:34 (recursive ascent) 20:56:47 recursive accent 20:56:57 i can't believe recursive ascent was invented before descent 20:56:59 just boggles the mind :) 20:57:09 "oh, I've read a number... guess I should check if there's an operator after me" 20:57:22 "hey there is! ok, i just read an operator... guess a number would be good" 20:58:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 20:58:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:58:54 wow, reading /r/norway totally equips me to talk to oerjan like i'm a norwegian! 20:59:08 hey oerjan, maria amelie! that was totally part of one of the headlines! 20:59:10 and uh 20:59:12 uh 20:59:14 damn this subreddit sucks 20:59:15 OH 20:59:16 stamps!! 20:59:32 "Where to buy live snails in Oslo, or Norway in general?" 20:59:51 elliott: ¿cuántas lenguas conoces? 21:00:04 tswett: yes, I recant all my linguistic coconuts. 21:00:09 -!- cheater- has joined. 21:00:18 elliott I AM STILL TRYING TO WRAP MY HEAD AROUND THE ENGLISH GROUP 21:00:20 oerjan: HEY REACT TO ME, I'M FROM NORWAY 21:00:44 elliott: do you chant in the coconut language? 21:00:54 That's Spanish for "what is the number of languages that you have come to have a significant understanding of". 21:00:57 olsner: bro. 21:01:10 "á" means "number of", for example. 21:01:18 tswett: 1, or lots if you include languages that computers can understand :-P 21:01:30 tswett: I have this plan thing to learn Japanese that will never happen because oklopol keeps HARSHING 21:01:31 MY 21:01:32 VIBES 21:01:42 feel those harshed vibes oklopol 21:01:46 look at what you're doing to mefw;gdh 21:01:56 elliott: does your accept() have a side-effect 21:02:05 ZOMGMODULES: accept() is 21:02:14 if (curtok == whatyousaid) eatitup() 21:02:19 and return 1 21:02:21 otherwise return 0 21:02:35 expect() is just if (!accept()) BALLLK, but i haven't used expect yet i don't think 21:03:00 huh. i always use expect(), and never accept() 21:03:12 i use tokeq() which doesn't consume 21:03:17 fewer side-effects in tests 21:03:18 ZOMGMODULES: well i copied accept() from wikipedia :) but accept is actually quite nice i think 21:03:22 because you can just do like 21:03:27 if (accept(one_thing)) ...handle that... 21:03:30 if you like side-effects in tests, SURE 21:03:31 else if (accept(another_thing)) ... 21:03:35 hmm.. seems like there is no actual parsing reason why C should require parens around an if expression 21:03:42 ZOMGMODULES: if (ident() && accept(COLON) && expr()) return 1; 21:03:52 ZOMGMODULES: (ok so that wouldn't be as nice-looking in practice cuz you have to build an ast, but that's not bad) 21:04:02 elliott: should i point out that _i_ don't read r/norway? 21:04:07 er 21:04:08 *expect 21:04:12 calamari: consider if foo (bar); 21:04:21 oerjan: MARIA AMELIE 21:04:40 is bar an argument list to foo, or the body coming after the boolean expression foo? 21:04:49 int messagepart() { 21:04:49 if (!ident()) return 0; 21:04:49 if (accept(COLON)) return expr(); 21:04:49 else return 1; 21:04:49 } 21:04:51 ZOMGMODULES: PRETTY 21:05:12 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:05:34 olsner: I didn't realize there could be whitespace before the function parms.. good one 21:06:14 elliott: yes yes i've heard about maria amelie 21:06:20 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:06:24 oerjan: SEE 21:06:28 I CAN CONSERVE LIK EA NORWEGIAN 21:06:30 also, converse 21:06:35 calamari: really? clearly you've never read GNU code! 21:06:41 if (the_most_awesome (oh_yes)) 21:06:42 { 21:06:46 printf ("oh yes!\n"); 21:06:46 } 21:07:00 elliott: it's true.. I hardly ever look at gnu code 21:07:03 augh 21:07:08 calamari: your sanity thanks you :) 21:07:10 the ugly :( 21:08:00 wow, I took almost all day to come up with two lines of code 21:08:12 a victim of norway's strict immigration and asylum policies. 21:08:17 -!- jix has joined. 21:08:49 ZOMGMODULES: http://sprunge.us/iQeM hey this grammar is actually pretty simple 21:08:57 doesn't actually build an ast and has ... for all the simple parts, but :) 21:09:03 also probably doesn't work, I think I need more expects 21:09:05 to avoid like 21:09:06 infinite loops 21:09:12 expects are kind of like cuts in prolog 21:09:24 if we don't get this token here THERE IS NO WAY THIS IS VALID, don't tell the function we have to try something else, just die 21:09:55 oerjan: lol @ norwegians complaining about their country's politics not being liberal enough 21:09:56 if your tests consume tokens, you won't have infinite loops 21:10:24 at least you have THAT assurance, with those side-effects 21:10:27 oerjan: i briefly googled it and failed to come up with any info on why she actually applied for asylum, though 21:10:34 elliott: well the policy is being loosened up a tiny bit because of her. 21:10:38 ZOMGMODULES: i'm practically a nazi 21:10:47 elliott: she didn't, her parents did when she was a child 21:10:50 expects are... more like exit()s in C 21:10:50 afair 21:10:53 oerjan: well, same thing 21:11:05 ZOMGMODULES: right but like if you have a 21:11:10 unless you do some fancy catching thing with them 21:11:12 while (expr()); 21:11:15 return accept(FOO); 21:11:15 and like 21:11:17 you have the expr be 21:11:18 in which case they're more like throw 21:11:23 (abc. 21:11:27 (abc.] 21:11:28 say 21:11:32 there's no way that'd valid 21:11:35 and it'll look for a FOO 21:11:37 which it won't find 21:11:39 thus returning false 21:11:39 although 21:11:42 i guess it will fail at the top level 21:11:46 but otoh 21:11:48 that'll be like 21:11:52 "found ], but I was expecting EOF or expression!" 21:11:52 you will eventually run out of tokens 21:11:56 because it'll fail at the top level 21:12:02 ZOMGMODULES: accept doesn't consume if it doesn't match 21:12:12 oh, right 21:12:15 (basically from now on, you can apply for work permit in norway even if you've been thrown out for not getting asylum.) 21:12:15 anyway, my point is, I think expect gives you nicer error messages 21:12:23 because otherwise errors bubble up to the top error 21:12:46 THAT IS WHY ZOMGMODULES USES IT ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY 21:12:53 ZOMGMODULES: GOOD ADVICE 21:12:59 *top level 21:13:07 I even do things like { if tokeq(";") { expect(";"); ... } } 21:13:12 lol 21:13:16 aka, accept 21:13:22 simplicity > efficiency 21:13:58 ZOMGMODULES: um but that's exactly what accept is :D 21:14:06 yes 21:14:07 well, technically it doesn't re-compare the current token 21:14:22 that's why accept is an UNNECESSARY 21:14:55 ZOMGMODULES: BLAHHH 21:14:59 but still juiceful 21:15:08 also, ... 21:15:19 ZOMGMODULES: so your routines, do they call the tokeniser or does the tokeniser call it? 21:15:35 void parse_foo() { expect("foo"); } void parse_bar() { if (tokeq("foo")) parse_foo(); } 21:15:46 that d. richard hipp guy thinks the latter is totally more cooler 21:15:52 -!- Tachycek has changed nick to You_got_AIDS. 21:15:56 -!- You_got_AIDS has changed nick to Tachycek. 21:16:01 Tachycek: i already had aids :'( 21:16:14 elliott: and how was it like ? 21:16:17 was it sexy ? 21:16:23 Tachycek: yes. almost painfully. 21:16:27 ZOMGMODULES: actually with recursive descent the latter would only be possible with continuations i think :D 21:16:29 elliott: I call the tokenizer, generally 21:16:29 elliott: basically the norwegian government refuses to acknowledge the obvious fact that some people may not actually _agree_ when it decides they won't be in danger if sent back, and punishes them for acting rationally on that disagreement, whether or not they're correct. 21:16:32 great 21:16:34 elliott: you got it 21:16:41 elliott: with something continuation-like, anyway 21:16:44 ZOMGMODULES: which means: we need that C continuation lib! 21:16:55 ZOMGMODULES: I APPROVE OF MY PROBLEM-SOLVING METHOD 21:17:02 once, in Erlang, I did neither. I had the lexer and parser be seperate processes which messaged each other 21:17:15 oerjan: hmm, punishes them how? I FEEL OUT OF MY LEAGUE, I THOUGHT SKIMMING /R/NORWAY WOULD PREPARE ME FULLY FOR THIS STRANGE CROSS-CULTURAL EXPERIENCE 21:17:22 elliott: tell me more about the HAARP treatment it surely arouses me 21:17:22 ZOMGMODULES: that's ... almost beautifully hideous 21:17:41 Tachycek: basically we had to have sex with goats while the whole room vibrated. 21:17:50 THAT'S HOW EVIL THE GOVERNMENT IS 21:17:59 oh noes 21:18:02 thats so sad 21:18:07 sad like my elbow 21:18:37 how disappointed the room should have been that it is not a vibrator and cannot go into your ass 21:18:43 must 21:18:53 * Tachycek is crying 21:19:01 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:21:56 ZOMGMODULES: so does writing a compiler that compiles to machine code hurts? 21:22:02 i'm assuming you've done it. 21:22:22 like, without libc 21:22:27 maybe i should make an assembler dsl thing... 21:26:39 I think I shall work on that IRC bot. 21:26:48 That darnèd IRC bot. 21:27:15 -!- tswettbot has joined. 21:27:16 I am sending a message. 21:28:24 I am sending /this/ message. 21:29:05 the message is the medium 21:29:30 I am sending no message. 21:29:58 tswettbot: you rock 21:30:12 * ZOMGMODULES is hoping a dozen debug windows just opened up for tswett 21:30:47 < elliott> ZOMGMODULES: so does writing a compiler that compiles to machine code hurts? <-- no, not really... depends, I guess 21:31:06 tswettbot, I dismiss you. 21:31:08 or what was it. 21:31:11 tswettbot: you are dismissed. 21:31:15 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:31:31 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:31:33 ZOMGMODULES: yeah but my compiler has to have, liek, two backends! 21:31:42 ZOMGMODULES: x86-64/linux and x86-64/NOTHING 21:31:54 Oh, tswettbot ran successfully again. 21:31:59 (i decided that bootstrapping a compiler on linux is more productive for @ than writing an optimising compiler in x86-64 assembly) 21:32:03 so like 21:32:23 elliott: then it's not, generally speaking, that painful... everything is partitioned nicely. 21:32:25 c interpreter of lang -> compiler from lang to x86-64/linux written in lang -> write a freestanding backend -> prophet 21:32:31 lexer, parser, ast, codegen. 21:32:42 ZOMGMODULES: oh the compiler parts don't scare me. 21:32:46 it's the x86-64 machine code part. 21:32:53 it's if you want to do it all "narrow" where it gets hairy 21:32:54 (i refuse to use assembly because i want a repl :)) 21:33:02 but yeah like 21:33:05 i don't want to be all 21:33:11 self lolCode: 3243482349234 21:33:13 nothing too painful about generating x86 code, is there? 21:33:16 *. 21:33:21 ZOMGMODULES: well no. but i want mnemonics! 21:33:24 and generating those will be painful. 21:33:36 you want to generate assembler? 21:34:07 ZOMGMODULES: no. 21:34:17 ZOMGMODULES: i want to generate machine code using an assembler-ish dsl 21:34:20 then you lost me at "mnemonics" 21:34:22 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:34:33 self mov: eax : 42. 21:34:42 elliott: have you done threading with Smalltalk? 21:34:47 self mov: eax : ebx value. 21:34:50 self mov: eax : (ebx + 1) value. 21:34:54 then you (in effect) want to write an assembler, and generate assembly for that assembler 21:34:57 tswett: no. why'd you want to? 21:34:58 :P 21:35:07 ZOMGMODULES: yes. that's true. but i don't want to _generate_ it, i want to invoke its routines directly. 21:35:10 which is a bit different 21:35:16 ZOMGMODULES: and the assembler doesn't actually have to be convenient... 21:35:20 like, (ebx + 1) value could be 21:35:23 ebx valueOffset: 1 21:35:25 or, you know 21:35:27 OTHER PAINFUL THINGS 21:35:32 and i don't actually need mov 21:35:33 vs like 21:35:36 movl 21:35:47 corollary: at&t syntax assemblers are not real assemblers, they are low-level APIs :) 21:35:52 elliott: then you are writing a codegen. 21:35:58 yes. yes i am. 21:36:05 but e.g. the plain english codegen just does things like 21:36:11 intel $8C98HF9398FN398HG98EH9JQ 21:36:18 i don't want to be the kind of person who does that. 21:36:22 a codegen with an API whose entry points have names that mnemonics. much like, well, every API 21:36:27 *that are 21:36:30 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:36:38 technically i want to write a codegen backend and an actual codegen 21:36:40 like 21:36:44 mylang->machine code 21:36:46 that uses 21:36:50 bunch of methods->machine code 21:37:12 there are many codegens that let you switch out backends to target a different architecture. if that's what you're saying 21:37:14 -!- cheater00 has joined. 21:37:21 ZOMGMODULES: no no no. 21:37:25 i just want to write an api so i can do 21:37:40 x86 movd: eax : 42. 21:37:42 rather than 21:37:43 elliott: because I'm... oh, never mind. 21:37:51 x86 code: 8394784 21:38:02 and that api sounds like a pain to generate. i guess i could hand-code it 21:38:03 tswett: :-P 21:38:16 tswett: If you're doing it to process each individual line to all the handlers, I think doing it synchronously is cleaner. 21:38:22 elliott: I've basically coded that API (in C, not Smalltalk) 21:38:23 with the handlers forking off if they're going to do some complex computation 21:38:32 -!- tswettbot has joined. 21:38:32 I am sending a message. 21:38:49 I dismiss you, tswettbot, WITH GREAT PREJUDICE AND ANGER. 21:38:50 ZOMGMODULES: sure. it's easy enough for a subset. just IDEALLY i'd generate it from the big instruction table things :) 21:38:54 with the imm8/r and that kind of stuff 21:38:58 immr/8. whatever. 21:39:02 tswettbot: what, you want a period after that? You're not getting one. 21:39:09 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:39:15 WHY DOES IT ONLY LISTEN TO YOU 21:39:19 WHYYYYYYY 21:39:23 generating it from an instruction table, yes: I've never done that and it would have some nice to it. 21:39:31 It listens to everyone equally. 21:39:37 it would... have... some... nice... to... it? 21:39:53 * ZOMGMODULES SAYS ONLY EXACTLY WHAT ZOMGMODULES MEANS 21:39:59 I dismiss you, tswettbot. I dismiss you, tswettbot. I dismiss... is this working? 21:40:07 tswettbot: :( 21:40:18 * ZOMGMODULES DISMISSES TSWETTBOT!!!! 21:40:21 i love you, tswettbot 21:40:23 don't listen to the haters 21:40:25 wow, ZOMGMODULES fits better in here than most of the regulars 21:40:29 let's dance off into the sunrise together 21:40:30 ais523: xD 21:40:32 ais523: indeed! 21:40:44 it is true 21:40:53 nobody tell him. 21:41:14 Let's try this one. 21:41:22 ais523: there is nothing that we're not telling you, btw 21:41:24 just clearing that up 21:41:26 -!- tswettbot2 has joined. 21:41:27 I am sending a message. 21:41:31 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:41:39 **** you, tswettbot. 21:41:41 elliott: I hope that isn't true, knowing every fact in existence would be a huge drain 21:41:58 (message includesSubString: 'I dismiss you, tswettbot') ifTrue: [bot quit]. 21:41:59 ais523: 0 =/= 1. 0 =/= 2. 0 =/= 3. 0 =/= 4. 21:42:09 tswett: what does bot quit do? 21:42:12 as in, the source 21:42:33 wow, Smalltalk's ifTrue: reminds me of Unassignable 21:42:48 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:43:09 I should start blocking ads, they're becoming more and more annoying. 21:43:18 you don't block ads? 21:43:22 (cue ais523's incredulity) 21:43:23 ha 21:43:23 quit 21:43:23 stream nextPutAll: 'QUIT'; crlf; flush. 21:43:23 stream close. 21:43:28 That's wrong, by the way. 21:43:36 it's worthwhile doing just to prevent them slowing down page loads 21:43:40 tswett: are you sure message is right? :) 21:43:44 ais523: CPU-wise, or bandwidth-wise? 21:43:48 the ads often take longer to load than the page itself 21:43:56 and normally not exactly bandwidth, but just response time 21:43:59 that's not true. at least not for me. 21:44:09 ah, OK 21:44:14 ais523: my alternative to ad-blocking is not going to sites with obnoxious ads, really 21:44:15 elliott: it was working before. :P 21:44:23 in fact, ads are a pretty good indicator of how useless a site is 21:44:31 CPU is mostly only relevant for JS- or Flash-based ads, which are blocked incidentally by other things 21:44:44 I don't block either :) 21:44:57 meh, they make even legitimate sites work a lot more nicely 21:45:02 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:45:14 ais523: the main impetus for me considering blocking ads right now is livejournal 21:45:20 -!- tswettbot3 has joined. 21:45:20 I am sending a message. 21:45:23 tswettbot3, do you even think that you're quitting? 21:45:23 every other page load on livejournal greys out and shows an irritating interstitial 21:45:27 I dismiss you, tswettbot3. 21:45:27 that you have to click a tiny X box to dismiss 21:45:31 this is _insanely_ annoying 21:45:42 Er. 21:45:44 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:45:46 elliott: I use ad-blockers to block all sorts of annoyances, not just ads 21:46:01 I normally block avatars on forums, for instance 21:46:01 I really ought to give this thing a morph so I can control it. 21:46:24 meh, avatars on forums don't bother me, 90% of a forum's UI is just ego-oriented irritatingness 21:46:30 so blocking avatars wouldn't help much 21:46:43 ais523: also, at least punbb lets you disable avatars in preferences 21:46:50 that requires an account, though 21:46:51 I've never heard of punbb 21:47:04 and I thought you were a vertical space fanatic 21:47:08 -!- Zuu has joined. 21:47:12 it's quite popular. and what do you mean? 21:47:24 given how short forum posts tend to be on many forums, blocking avatars lets you show about three times as many posts in a screenful 21:47:37 as otherwise the posts have to expand to make room for the avatars 21:47:40 not really 21:47:47 i mean 21:47:58 most forums have large enough padding on the left and right side that with a reasonable avatar size limit there is no difference 21:48:05 i guess if it allows like 256 high avatars :P 21:48:22 Oh, I think I know what's happening here. 21:48:24 even 64 high avatars would heighten typical posts in some places 21:48:34 hmm, looks like the maximum on this forum is 128x128 21:48:42 the other one i post on doesn't show the maximum and I'm too lazy to test 21:48:56 The message handler thread grabs a line, processes it, and repeats, until the line grabbed is empty. I thought the line grabbed being empty would only happen once the connection is closed, but now I think it happens if the buffer is empty. 21:49:17 tswett: Why's that in a thread? :p 21:49:55 -!- tswettbot3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:50:57 -!- tswettbot4 has joined. 21:50:57 I am sending a message. 21:51:07 Because I don't want the entire VM to block every time I wait for a message. 21:51:27 tswettbot4: yo dude, shouldn't you be throwing a failed assertion right about now? 21:52:10 tswett: oh, right 21:52:20 tswett: shouldn't you abstract the threaded line-reader into another class? 21:52:25 tswettbot4: I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:52:26 with some thing for setting up a callback for "line received" 21:52:36 then you could hide the necessity of the ugly threadedness :) 21:52:38 -!- tswettbot4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:52:54 I dismiss you, livejournal. 21:53:08 elliott: I dunno, it's pretty small. 21:53:15 I'm abstracting the message handlers into another class. 21:53:17 ZOMGMODULES: lots of cool people use livejournal. i'm not sure why. 21:53:24 And... remote host closed the connection? Why did that happen? 21:53:31 http://www.google.com/recaptcha/api/image?c=03AHJ_Vutjaxx7sWT-X_rA0M5Zqe7bNiMJc4VpqmdqMIyrJzrwPrCEbHPAdQZG9OEixxe5JrXMYRAjO9iVRo3ViYAw1RsHw6TR06jwIVUGga2IJd8zS9Ttt_H0zHsnO_00EyUUxPoatRhbW1RtfVUF0oVMZqYHm1KCuA 21:53:34 i sure hope ^p was right 21:53:42 -!- tswettbot4 has joined. 21:53:42 I am sending a message. 21:54:29 I dissmiss you, tswettbot. 21:54:30 I dissmiss you, tswettbot4. 21:54:35 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:54:39 The nick is hardcoded into that message. 21:54:56 also the spelling, bizarrely enough. 21:55:05 :D 21:55:22 shouldn't it just figure out what i mean and do it? 21:55:49 That will be in tswettbot5. 21:55:53 -!- tswettbot4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:56:12 -!- tswettbot4 has joined. 21:56:32 -!- tswettbot6 has joined. 21:56:42 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 21:56:46 BOTH OF YOU 21:57:24 What the heck is happening? :P 21:57:47 love 21:57:49 love is happening 21:57:54 so when's tswettbot5 coming out 21:58:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:59:01 -!- tswettbot4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:59:01 -!- tswettbot6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:59:13 ais523: evil prediction: an advertising network will implement an "innovative new anti-adblocker feature" for sites 21:59:29 I've seen sites that use anti-adblockers 21:59:31 ais523: this will involve the ad executing some code to decrypt the stored page html 21:59:34 ais523: and displaying it 21:59:42 however, the advertising networks really like adblockers, or at least don't mind them 21:59:48 Debugging that was the most confusing experience of my life. 21:59:49 so unless you have JS enabled and ad-blocking off, you can't see the page content without breaking the (simple) encryption 21:59:54 because if the ad's never loaded from their servers, they don't have to pay the site for showing it 22:00:03 ais523: heh, right, it's actually profitable for them to support adblockers 22:00:06 and so, people who probably wouldn't click on the ads anyway don't eat into their overheads 22:00:06 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:00:10 ais523: well, pay-per-view isn't universal 22:00:12 vs. pay-per-click 22:00:19 indeed 22:00:23 but pay-per-click's basically neutral too 22:00:31 whereas pay-per-view likes adblockers 22:00:42 * tswett debugs it better. 22:01:00 hmm... ad networks essentially want the minimum possible number of people to click their ads, so that webmasters and advertisers still use them 22:01:07 -!- tswettbot8 has joined. 22:01:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:01:36 tswettbot8: HOW'S IT GOING, MAN 22:01:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:01:42 -!- tswettbot9 has joined. 22:02:37 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 22:02:58 also, I dismiss my lack of incredulity that it's taken tswett this long to get a bot that can now do less than it started with :D 22:03:07 (it no longer says it's sending a message, or quits on command) 22:03:21 -!- Leonidas has left ("Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"). 22:03:44 I removed the part where it says it's sending a message. 22:03:58 The quitting on command... I'm working on that. :P 22:04:01 -!- tswettbot9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:04:01 -!- tswettbot8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:04:03 FSP looks cool 22:04:05 well 22:04:08 cooler than FTP :-P 22:04:13 fsvo cool 22:04:43 Golly gee whiz, I think I've figured it out. 22:04:58 Hey elliott, guess what this does: ['foo' isEmpty ifFalse: [^ true]] whileTrue 22:05:02 hmm 22:05:07 i've forgotten what parse trees look like 22:05:13 ZOMGMODULES: please advise 22:05:16 tswett: returns true 22:05:23 And guess what this does: (['foo' isEmpty ifFalse: [^ true]] whileTrue) not 22:05:29 returns true 22:05:37 You know what I didn't. 22:05:51 ...elide the unnecessary ^? 22:05:52 I was expecting [^ true] to just return true for itself, not the whole running thread thingy. 22:06:03 yes, well, that's blocks for you :) 22:06:04 Does "elide" mean what you think it means? 22:06:07 THIN VS. THICK FUNCTIONS 22:06:17 elide means emit. so yes. 22:06:20 (more or less) 22:06:21 er 22:06:22 *omit. 22:06:39 -!- tswettbot10 has joined. 22:07:08 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 22:07:11 Whoa, I can't believe that worked. 22:07:23 it ... didn't 22:07:33 you realise quit is "QUIT :x" not "QUIT" 22:07:34 right? 22:07:37 fsvo x 22:07:56 You see, I was getting one of those debugger loops, where each debugger that opens crashes, opening another debugger. 22:08:04 I pressed Cmd-., and the debugger loop stopped. 22:08:08 Who'dathunk? 22:08:08 that doesn't sound normal, you know. 22:08:19 Indeed, but apparently it happens to people other than me sometimes. 22:08:39 how can you expect a debugger to be bug-free 22:08:45 :D 22:08:51 at least smalltalk has the foresight to try to debug it 22:09:04 with 22:09:06 itself 22:09:19 ZOMGMODULES: what do asts look like again 22:09:29 elliott: ... 22:09:33 TREES 22:09:35 * tswett runs the bot, expecting something to happen. 22:09:36 they look like TREES 22:09:37 are they fuzzy 22:09:44 Apparently, nothing happens when I run the bot now. 22:09:45 do they warm you up if you hug them 22:09:50 or are they green 22:10:09 ZOMGMODULES: i'm only half joking, why doesn't c have support for data structures :/ 22:10:22 you have to use a hideous enum and a union of structs just to get the simplest kind of data structure, i.e. an adt 22:10:24 -!- augur has joined. 22:10:28 C has fine support for sexprs once you code them up 22:10:35 you have to use a hideous enum and a union of structs just to get the simplest kind of data structure, i.e. an adt 22:10:43 well 22:10:53 to understand asts, read r/trees 22:10:54 and afaict any non-trivial AST is an ADT 22:11:05 * tswett tries changing the bot's nick, to see if that helps. 22:11:12 i usually end up with a hideous enum and a union of structs, but I'm usually not aiming for the simplest kind of data structure 22:11:27 ZOMGMODULES: well it's just... does that e-- 22:11:31 hey i should make them actual smalltalk objects 22:11:32 no no no 22:11:33 that's stupid 22:11:33 -!- tswettbot10 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:11:38 that would be useful 22:12:06 wow. richard dawkins' guardian.co.uk picture is so derpy 22:12:10 elliott: if you are trying to code objects in C, that's your own damn fault 22:12:10 http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/9/21/1253534142104/Dawkins-bio-pic-001.jpg "harr!" 22:12:15 ZOMGMODULES: i'm not i'm not 22:12:18 just an ast 22:12:23 i briefly considered making the ast nodes smalltalk objects 22:12:24 for like 22:12:27 metacircularity 22:12:29 but that is stupid 22:12:44 struct expr { struct expr *lhs; struct expr *rhs; char *op; } 22:12:48 there's your ast 22:12:59 O YA, AND WHAT IS [] 22:13:04 NULL 22:13:12 WHAT IS 22:13:16 [|x y z| x := 3.] 22:13:29 DOES LHS POINT TO SOMETHING WITH OP=| AND LHS=X AND RHS=(OP=| AND LHS=Y ...) 22:13:33 SO SILY 22:14:17 hey dawkins said scapegoat in this article 22:14:18 :DDD 22:14:23 he wants to control his versions 22:16:24 "The method we recommend is calmly to approach Mr Blair and in a gentle fashion to lay a hand on his shoulder or elbow, in such a way that he cannot have any cause to complain of being hurt or trapped by you, and announce loudly, “Mr Blair, this is a citizens’ arrest for a crime against peace, namely your decision to launch an unprovoked war against Iraq. I am inviting you to accompany me to a poli 22:16:24 ce station to answer the charge.”" 22:16:46 It's working! 22:16:56 Badly! 22:17:27 I have three questions now. 22:17:37 1. Why is it working? 2. Why isn't it working? 3. Why is it working? 22:17:49 tswett: GIMME THE WORLD IMAGE IMA MAKE IT WORK WITH FRIENDSHIP & LOVE 22:18:26 hmm, is it legal for police to stop someone making a citizen's arrest? 22:19:18 elliott: is it illegal to trap someone when citizen's-arresting them? 22:19:36 well, define "trap" 22:19:50 I think it's perfectly legal to stop someone removing themselves from a public place if you're attempting to citizen's-arrest them 22:19:52 or at least, it should be legal 22:19:57 so long as you don't actually use force 22:19:59 I define "trap" as meaning whatever it meant as used in that quote you quoted. :P 22:20:20 (and running away from a citizen's arrest should probably be illegal too, but) 22:20:25 (i'm asking what is, not what should be) 22:20:27 I take it "use force" does not mean "apply a force to the person in question". 22:20:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nude gait). 22:20:40 It's difficult to arrest someone effectively without applying any forces to them. 22:21:03 :D 22:21:08 "oops, sorry, i breathed on you" 22:21:42 tswett: afaict citizen's arrests are a bit useless because either they'll run away, ignore you, or be high-profile enough that it won't work :) 22:21:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:22:18 This bot seems to be sending a message for every message it receives. 22:22:26 * oerjan has quit (Quit: Nude gait) 22:22:26 what 22:22:29 That is, to quote Eliezer Yudkowsky, wrong. 22:22:51 tswett, is this supposed to be a trivial bot? 22:23:00 tswett is, to quote Eliezer Yudkowsky, a, person who quotes Eliezer Yudkowsky a lot. 22:23:02 Maybe I should stay away from Smalltalk for bot purposes 22:23:07 (I am pretty sure Eliezer Yudkowsky once said "a".) 22:23:24 Sgeo: no, I'm just bad at Smalltalk. 22:23:34 I made a glaring error here. 22:23:50 Wait, no, I made a less-glaring error here. 22:23:53 tswett: I WANT YOUR WHIRRLED IMAGE 22:23:56 ooh wait 22:23:59 I have a smalltalk transcript 22:24:03 this means i can type things and have them execute 22:24:16 My friend got me a MtG online account as an early birthday gift 22:25:03 elliott: okay, okay, just give me a moment. 22:25:25 whirrled? 22:25:35 Sgeo: world. 22:25:35 -!- tswettbot128888 has joined. 22:25:40 Said in elliottese. 22:25:46 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 22:25:47 I am quitting. 22:25:47 -!- tswettbot128888 has quit (Client Quit). 22:26:05 So apparently the problem all along was that this thing was sending null messages. :P 22:26:14 And I have no idea why that was a problem. 22:26:53 elliottese is a good language 22:26:57 it's basically phonetics 22:27:50 -!- tswettbot has joined. 22:28:07 MY BOT IS PERFECT 22:28:12 hey tswettbot, say this 22:28:25 :( 22:29:01 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 22:29:10 The listener thread probably got killed, eh. 22:29:28 We just need a new bot, then. 22:29:35 -!- tswetttbot has joined. 22:29:38 tswett: hmm, this gc thing _is_ irritating 22:29:44 Er, we need a new nick, then. 22:29:52 elliott: no, I Cmd-.ed it because it was throwing a debugger loop again. 22:29:57 tswett: no i mean in my bot 22:29:58 Throwing the debugger for a loop again. 22:29:59 Oh. 22:30:11 [[stream nextLine. true] whileTrue] fork 22:30:11 Turn garbage collection off. :P 22:30:12 doesn't work 22:30:19 apparently it gets disconnected while waiting for input... 22:30:36 If you're having trouble that I'm not having, I recommend being you. 22:30:39 I mean, being me. 22:30:55 hey tswettbot, say something better this time. 22:31:04 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:31:08 Alas, I'm getting a debugger loop again. 22:31:15 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 22:31:38 I stand by my previous statement: :( 22:31:40 hmm 22:31:42 it's not working :( 22:33:03 i'm gonna make a new class so it's less shitty 22:33:54 -!- tswetttbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:36:45 -!- tswettbot has joined. 22:36:50 I turned Pharo's sound on. It's really annoying. 22:36:51 WHY IS THIS NO WORK 22:36:53 hey tswettbot, say say say say say 22:37:50 tswett: are you using stream nextLine? 22:38:15 These sounds are *really* annoying. To quote Eliezer Yudkowsky, AAIIIIIEEEEEAAARRRRRGGGHHH. 22:38:57 what sounds? 22:39:04 olsner: the sounds Smalltalk makes when you turn sound on. 22:39:05 ohh 22:39:06 duh 22:39:21 Every time you open or close a window, it goes "TSSK tk". 22:39:34 TSSK tk. TSSK tk. TSSK tk. TSSK tk. TSSK tk. 22:39:50 It disapproves. 22:39:52 A debugger loop sounds like this: TSSK TSSK-tk TSSK-tk TSSK-tk TSSK-tk tk. 22:40:09 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:15 coppro, anyone else who knows magic? What's a scheme? 22:40:16 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=212585 22:40:23 It's not legally playable in any formats 22:40:30 -!- tswettttbot has joined. 22:40:43 god 22:40:48 squeak/pharo really sucks 22:40:57 with the whole single-threaded vm thing 22:40:58 elliott: what's better than it? 22:41:02 oh, nothing 22:41:03 ...it's a single-threaded VM? 22:41:05 well 22:41:06 no 22:41:07 it used to be 22:41:09 before this new cog thing 22:41:10 but even then 22:41:12 like 22:41:17 you can either 22:41:20 have simple networking code 22:41:21 or have a gui 22:41:24 THANKS SQUEAK 22:41:27 also the gc stuff is stupid 22:41:34 workspace objects shouldn't get gc'd, or something 22:41:43 Workspace objects should definitely get GC'd. 22:41:56 not before the workspace is closed. 22:42:05 Yes, that makes it not a bad idea. 22:42:18 hey tswettbot, say say say SAY SAY SAY 22:42:25 say say SAY 22:42:27 SAY SAY SAY 22:42:28 SAYYYYYY 22:42:33 hey tswettbot, say PONG 22:42:38 -!- smallbot has joined. 22:42:41 ha 22:42:41 HA 22:42:42 hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, man 22:42:43 okay, man 22:42:43 <3 22:42:45 smallbot: marry me 22:42:51 hey tswettbot, say QUIT :look what you can do, man 22:42:51 -!- tswettttbot has quit (Client Quit). 22:43:07 To quote elliott, <3 22:43:22 aww 22:43:22 <3 22:43:24 love all aroun 22:43:24 d 22:44:03 um 22:44:05 smallbot 22:44:07 Um? 22:44:08 please ping out so that i can use the gui again 22:44:11 and make you threaded 22:44:12 thanks 22:44:16 -!- tswettbot has joined. 22:44:23 elliott: Cmd-. You use a Mac, right? :P 22:44:26 Something-. 22:44:33 hey tswettbot, say NICK elliottbot 22:44:33 alt-. did it 22:44:33 -!- tswettbot has changed nick to elliottbot. 22:44:33 thanks 22:44:36 OOH 22:44:39 hey tswettbot, say NICK faggot 22:44:39 -!- elliottbot has changed nick to faggot. 22:44:45 hey tswettbot, say JOIN #freenode 22:44:46 hey tswettbot, say QUIT 22:44:46 -!- faggot has quit (Client Quit). 22:44:49 hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #freenode :i'm a faggot 22:44:52 tswett: THAT'S WHAT YOU GET 22:44:55 <3 22:45:00 to quote eliezer yudkowsky, "faggot" 22:45:08 that was probably stupid 22:45:11 but i'm laughing anyway 22:45:17 -!- Tachycek has changed nick to Me_faps. 22:45:19 tswett: hey, you typed pretty fast there 22:45:21 -!- Me_faps has changed nick to Tachycek. 22:45:21 you're getting better ;D 22:45:27 I typed it before you typed that. 22:45:32 Lame :P 22:46:09 Just kidding. I actually typed "hey tswettbot, say QUIT" after you typed "hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #freenode :i'm a faggot". 22:47:27 wtf 22:47:30 -!- tswettbot has joined. 22:47:31 String has endsWith: but not startsWith: 22:47:34 elliott: have at it. 22:47:45 hey tswettbot, say NICK iloveeverybody 22:47:46 NO ELLIOTT I HATE YOU 22:47:46 -!- smallbot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:47:51 ... :( 22:47:56 i was just trying to be friendly 22:48:06 * elliott cries 22:48:09 Well, too bad. 22:48:15 You should be ashamed of yourself. For everything. 22:48:17 You're a jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk. 22:48:35 How do you pronounce "jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk"? 22:48:41 Nobody knows. 22:48:44 Oh. 22:48:54 tswettbot probably still pings out. 22:48:58 ... 22:49:00 tswett still pings out. 22:49:03 ... 22:49:07 tswettbot still pings out. 22:49:16 The first of those, I had no reason to doubt. The second of those was a typo. 22:49:29 elliott: here, you can go ahead and dismiss the bot. 22:49:33 no 22:49:35 i love it 22:49:39 it's my friend 22:49:56 Oh? I thought it was a jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk. 22:50:01 no, that was tswett. 22:50:04 Oh. 22:50:07 hey tswettbot, 22:50:09 Take out your feelings of anger on the bot! 22:50:19 tswett: i think you are a bad parent and also abusive 22:50:20 hey tswettbot, say 22:50:23 i think tswettbot should go into foster care. 22:50:27 tswettbot doesn't say what you tell it to say any more. 22:50:29 tswettbot: everything is going to be ok 22:50:35 ZOMGMODULES: the space on the end is necessary. 22:50:41 elliott: dismiss it into foster care. 22:50:43 hey tswettbot, say I dismiss you, tswettbot. 22:50:44 NO ELLIOTT I HATE YOU 22:50:44 I am quitting. 22:50:44 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit). 22:50:50 X-D 22:51:03 I made it ragequit! 22:53:30 oh man, smalltalk shares the same braindamage as lua! 22:53:39 exciting! 22:53:41 1-based indexing, huh 22:53:41 (1-indexed arrays) 22:53:44 yes!!! 22:53:57 DOES IT CONFLATE THEM WITH DICTIONARIES LIKE LUA 22:54:01 the best kind of indexing, if you define best as the top element when sorted from worst to best 22:54:05 ZOMGMODULES: NO 22:54:05 BECAUSE THAT IS SOOOOOO AWESOME 22:54:07 IT'S NOT QUITE THAT BAD 22:54:10 ZOMGMODULES: hey wait 22:54:12 No, Smalltalk has lots of kinds of containers. 22:54:14 and lua only has floats 22:54:15 so basically 22:54:21 YES 22:54:22 1.5 is a valid array index 22:54:23 YES YES YES 22:54:23 :DDDD 22:54:31 The worst kind of indexing is indexing by wood. 22:54:36 i propose we all adopt the compromise 0.5 starting array index value 22:54:42 In order to index the array, you must jab a piece of wood into your CPU. 22:55:07 Anyway, feel free to subclass Array to get a zero-indexed Array. :P 22:56:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:56:25 omg smalltalk has nice names for indexes 22:56:26 tokens first 22:56:27 tokens fourth 22:56:40 Wow. 22:56:42 :DD 22:56:49 it should be done with the not implemented thing 22:56:50 so you can do 22:57:01 tokens sevenhundredsquillionsixthousandsextillion 22:57:01 THIS IS HOW CHILDREN LEARN 22:57:06 :D 22:57:19 And they go up to ninth. 22:57:27 everything cp... ZOMGMODULES says sounds better in caps 22:57:35 elliott: ahem. tokens sevenhundredsquillionsixthousandsextillionth. 22:57:46 tswett: oh ofc 22:57:47 :D 22:58:11 hmm, yet how do you chop the first element off a smalltalk orderd collection 22:58:20 allButfirst: 1? :P 22:58:29 polynomialEval: thisX 22:58:29 | sum valToPower | 22:58:29 "Treat myself as the coeficients of a polynomial in X. Evaluate it with thisX. First element is the constant and last is the coeficient for the highest power." 22:58:29 " #(1 2 3) polynomialEval: 2 " "is 3*X^2 + 2*X + 1 with X = 2" 22:58:32 yes, sequences should know how to do this 22:58:33 allButFirst, I guess. 22:58:36 (this is my main objection to message passing) 22:58:55 -!- Tachycek has left ("."). 22:59:40 tokens := line findTokens: ':'. 22:59:40 elems := tokens first findTokens: ' '. 22:59:40 prefix := elems first. 22:59:40 args := elems allButFirst. 22:59:40 args add: tokens second. 22:59:41 tswett: deugly plz 23:00:37 elliott: where do you use prefix? 23:00:46 prefix and args are the result 23:00:51 * tswett nods. 23:00:52 soooooooooo........ there's this code, that is never called by these unit tests. but changing the code causes the unit tests to fail. 23:00:54 this is basically a constructor thing :) 23:01:05 Why would you want it to be prettier? :P 23:01:41 it's ugly :D 23:01:43 oh, no. i had wrong method. whew. 23:02:01 ZOMGMODULES: :D 23:02:31 tswett: HOW DO YOU GET ALL BUT THE FIRST AND SECOND EH 23:02:34 allButFirstAndSecond?! 23:02:47 elliott: allButFirst: 2 23:02:51 OR THAT, YES 23:07:53 tswett: there's some fancy StringBuilder thing isn't there? or am i wrong 23:08:09 I haven't a quack. 23:08:12 :D 23:09:54 -!- smallbot has joined. 23:09:55 *sigh* 23:10:03 smallbot: what are you doing here, you broke 23:10:04 Magic Online wants admin access to my computer 23:10:15 * Sgeo glares at Wizards of the Coast 23:10:42 Sgeo: doesn't just about everything? 23:10:55 Well, a lot of old stuff 23:11:17 Docking Station comes to mind rather quickly 23:11:25 elliott: StringBuilder? Java? 23:11:34 olsner: probably that's what i was thinking 23:11:54 do we even allow talking about Java in here? :/ 23:12:41 smallbot: come on, die, fucker! 23:13:07 -!- elliotts_favorit has joined. 23:13:24 -!- smallbot has quit (Client Quit). 23:13:25 olsner: well, that depends. Is Java an esoteric language? 23:13:28 yess 23:13:33 elliotts_favorit is elliott's favorit. 23:13:46 -!- smallbot has joined. 23:13:48 wait 23:13:49 Hello! 23:13:50 that should be flooding 23:13:52 Hello! 23:13:57 uhh 23:13:57 Hello! 23:14:04 how are you not pinged out, little buddy 23:14:04 Hello! 23:14:12 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:14:17 oh it only does it on privmsgs 23:14:17 Hello! 23:14:26 tswett: isn't it cute 23:14:27 Hello! 23:14:29 smallbot: <3 23:14:30 Hello! 23:14:30 Yeah! 23:14:31 Hello! 23:14:38 Get two of it in here. Now. 23:14:38 Hello! 23:14:42 :D 23:14:42 Hello! 23:14:53 DOING SO 23:14:53 Hello! 23:14:55 this may be painful 23:14:55 Hello! 23:14:57 -!- smallbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:14:58 :D 23:14:59 oops 23:15:01 saved and quat the world 23:15:02 will fix 23:15:09 quat - past tense of quit 23:15:16 Open two of the world. 23:15:18 -!- storkbot has joined. 23:15:20 Nothing can go wrong. 23:15:24 -!- smallbot has joined. 23:15:28 Who is storkbot? 23:15:28 Hello! 23:15:32 oh wait 23:15:32 Hello! 23:15:40 |help 23:15:41 ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 23:15:41 Hello! 23:15:42 Hello! 23:15:46 |errors 23:15:47 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:15:47 Hello! 23:15:47 the other smallbot is still using its nick 23:15:48 Hello! 23:15:48 Hello! 23:15:48 -!- smallbotx has joined. 23:15:49 here we go 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 |help errors 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 Hello! 23:15:50 ZOMGMODULES: To get more interesting error messages, set ~/errmsgs=snark. 23:15:55 um 23:15:55 it 23:15:56 stopped 23:15:59 |~/errmsgs=snark 23:16:00 ZOMGMODULES: snark 23:16:01 -!- smallbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:01 -!- smallbotx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:05 |foo 23:16:06 ZOMGMODULES: That's wonderful for you! 23:16:07 well that was uneventful 23:16:11 |~/errmsgs=poop 23:16:11 elliott: poop 23:16:12 |hello!!! 23:16:13 elliott: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:16:16 :( 23:16:23 |poop 23:16:24 ZOMGMODULES: What is this I don't even 23:16:32 |save 23:16:32 ZOMGMODULES: State saved. 23:16:35 storkbot: YOU LIE 23:16:36 ZOMGMODULES: That's wonderful for you! 23:16:46 Anyway, as you can see, elliotts_favorit is immortal. 23:16:49 |~/errmsgs=snark 23:16:49 elliott: snark 23:16:51 Nothing can make it quit. 23:16:58 |copulate 23:16:58 elliott: wat. 23:17:02 |wat yourself 23:17:02 elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1! 23:17:06 |no i di't 23:17:06 elliott: That's wonderful for you! 23:17:11 |you too! :) 23:17:12 elliott: That's wonderful for you! 23:17:14 |thanks! 23:17:15 elliott: What is this I don't even 23:17:20 |we all don't even. 23:17:20 elliott: What is this I don't even 23:17:23 and the scary thing is that that feature requires lua 5.1 23:17:26 ZOMGMODULES: needs moar errors 23:17:30 ZOMGMODULES: can you let us define our own errmsgs 23:17:30 like 23:17:42 be able to set |~/errmsgs=('That's stupid.'; 'You''re stupid.') 23:17:47 (best string and list syntax, bcuz its different) 23:17:52 |~/errmsgs=('That's stupid.'; 'You''re stupid.') 23:17:53 ZOMGMODULES: ('That's stupid.'; 'You''re stupid.') 23:18:03 yes but it doesn't actually... use them 23:18:09 |true that 23:18:09 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:18:15 not hard to implement 23:18:16 ANYWAY 23:18:21 -!- tswett_otherbot has joined. 23:18:22 SO IMPLEMENT IT 23:18:23 storkbot: DIE DIE 23:18:24 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:18:29 |what is stockbot supposed to do? 23:18:29 tswett: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:18:30 storkbot: helllllp 23:18:31 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:18:36 storkbot: help 23:18:36 ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 23:18:44 storkbot: help goto 23:18:44 ZOMGMODULES: To evaluate a string as a command, issue 'goto command'. This discards control context. 23:18:53 storkbot: goto help 23:18:53 ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 23:18:58 oh yeah, THIS bot. 23:19:02 ok 23:19:12 what's the thing to activate a block in smalltalk 23:19:12 * ZOMGMODULES shuffles over to the other monitor 23:19:14 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:19 |go- 23:19:19 :( 23:19:26 good night 23:19:35 -!- ZOMGMODULES has changed nick to storkbot. 23:19:37 -!- storkbot has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:19:48 Look, tswett can control me. 23:20:06 tswett: 23:20:08 what's the thing to activate a block in smalltalk 23:20:18 All he has to do is open up the Process Browser, find my process, inspect me, and send me me the sendMessage: message. 23:20:27 elliott: value, I think. 23:20:31 [3] value === 3 23:20:37 with an arg :p 23:20:42 ah 23:20:44 value: 23:20:49 [:x | x + 1] value: 4 === 5 23:21:01 hmm, maybe that way of doing it sucks 23:21:28 -!- sedbot has joined. 23:21:31 yo who am i 23:21:35 sedbot: hi 23:21:51 ais523: btw, re your liquid democracy thing 23:21:57 ais523: (that you didn't invent, but) 23:21:58 hmm, my bot is useless :) 23:22:01 ais523: i invented the BEST SYSTEM EVER based on it 23:22:07 im out yo 23:22:13 -!- elliotts_favorit has quit (Quit: elliotts_favorit). 23:22:30 sedbot: QUIT 23:22:30 -!- sedbot has quit (Client Quit). 23:23:00 noo 23:23:03 rbing the bots bacq 23:23:08 -!- cheater- has joined. 23:23:12 tswett_otherbot is still here. 23:24:13 I think if I patch ZbasuBot, some of the patches will take effect right away. :P 23:24:31 had a hard time getting the bot working, but then I realized that I was just connecting to the wrong port number 23:24:47 * elliott still finds squeak/pharo a bit awkward to use 23:26:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:26:14 tswett: can i throw money at you to make you write @ 23:26:19 hmm, could be fun to extend that sed bot to something vaguely useful 23:26:23 @ 23:26:24 Next. 23:26:45 tswett: no, the os 23:26:45 -!- tswett_otherbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:26:49 Oh. 23:26:54 Tha--hey! 23:27:02 What? It errored? 23:27:43 tswett: WOULD MONEY WOR 23:27:44 K 23:27:48 it pung out? 23:27:54 No, I already have enough money, but not enough time. 23:28:02 You should pay me time for money. 23:28:34 -!- tswettbot has joined. 23:28:37 I should try to fix that thing that causes every error to cause a debugger loop. 23:28:42 tswettbot: be better this time. 23:29:28 -!- smallbot has joined. 23:29:32 say Hello, world! 23:29:35 ... :( 23:29:52 It... timed out. 23:29:59 oh a bug 23:30:00 the lames 23:30:46 I guess this bot is impatient. 23:30:57 btw, "elliotts_favorit", was that just favorite truncated or was it scandinavian? 23:30:58 -!- smallbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:31:18 whoops 23:31:22 killed the wrong process 23:31:27 how can i tell pharo to save from the console >_> 23:31:35 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:44 elliott: you have a console? 23:31:55 I have my terminal :P 23:31:59 That I started Pharo in. 23:32:05 Basically I killed the input-reading thread>_> 23:32:07 *thread >_> 23:32:11 Which includes mouse/keyboard 23:32:32 Why would you want to save that? 23:32:45 Because the world has code... 23:32:46 If the image is broken, quit it and recover your changes. 23:32:49 Note that I have never done this. 23:32:49 Oh, right. 23:32:54 Yes, but it doesn't have an input-reading thread. :P 23:33:55 -!- smallbot has joined. 23:34:00 say hello 23:34:05 FUCK YOU WHORE 23:34:22 elliott, you will like the randomised name of my current dwarf fortress embarkment: Boatprison. 23:34:34 ugh 23:34:35 still borked 23:36:04 DIE STUPID BOT DIE 23:37:00 smallbot: die 23:37:00 die 23:37:01 die 23:37:01 die 23:37:01 die 23:37:02 die 23:37:02 die 23:37:04 die 23:38:28 -!- smallbot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:38:30 i'll just wait for it to ping out 23:38:30 yay 23:38:31 good timing 23:38:40 -!- smallbot has joined. 23:39:37 say hello 23:39:42 tswett: it's a bit retarded. :( 23:40:32 So is tswettbot. 23:40:35 It's so retarded that it isn't here. 23:40:39 yeah. 23:40:41 tard. 23:42:33 It's a bit smarter now. 23:42:36 -!- tswettbot has joined. 23:42:42 hey tswettbot, say nothing at all 23:42:45 hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing at all 23:42:48 hey tswettbot, die 23:42:58 See how smart it is? 23:43:17 -!- smallbot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:43:41 the smartest 23:43:55 now i'm going to do something less painful, like suicide 23:44:07 maybe i'll write storkbot but better :) 23:44:20 just as long as i don't end up writing a proper parser 23:44:29 i could make it like tcl, everything is a string! 23:54:23 Is there a reason to like Smalltalk more than Newspeak? 23:55:05 tswett: So hey, Redivider! 23:56:16 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined. 23:56:21 ZOMGMODULES: hi! 23:56:25 ZOMG HI 23:56:28 ZOMGMODULES: plz not to be suing me for what i've done 23:56:47 WHAT HAVE YOU DONE 23:56:56 ZOMGMODULES: DECIDED TO MAKE A BOT THAT'S ALL THAT STORKBOT COULD BE 23:57:01 :( 23:57:08 what does that mean, though? 23:57:09 like, |tell? who needs that when you can just append to someone's inbox array??? 23:57:19 or when lambdabot's here, use it 23:57:24 IF YOU WON'T NURTURE THIS POSSIBLE SHITTY LANGUAGE, I WILL 23:57:46 i nurture it... on and off 23:57:47 i don't actually know what i mean 23:57:58 i don't think it's a language yet exactly 23:58:04 yeah. but it SHOULD be. 23:58:19 total agreement 23:58:43 hmm, the "permissions" on variables sound like fun... like, you want the inbox array to be append-only for everyone else 23:58:46 i was going to... implement persistence 23:58:53 -!- storkbot has joined. 23:58:57 or maybe you just need ~foo/inbox to automatically erase itself and append to ~foo/msgs 23:58:58 where msgs is private 23:58:59 except now i look at its lua source code and i hate it... oh hi storkbot 23:59:04 ooh! ooh! OOH! 23:59:08 ~foo/send should be a FUNCTION 23:59:09 |~/ 23:59:10 ZOMGMODULES: 23:59:13 that can obviously access ~foo/inbox 23:59:15 |~/* 23:59:15 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 23:59:17 so ~foo/send just appends to the inbox 23:59:21 ZOMGMODULES: AWESOME Y/N 23:59:37 i was thinking about how to distinguish commands from variables 23:59:45 i have no idea 23:59:50 see, i just solved it, don't distinguish! 23:59:54 in fact 23:59:58 just expand variables with like 2011-04-06: 00:00:00 $0, $1, $2 00:00:07 then variables are functions because variables get recursively expanded. 00:00:09 yesh, it kind of drifting in that direction 00:00:11 oh my god it's so shitty this is amazing. 00:00:13 When will Factory llanguage be implemented? 00:00:17 all variables are variables that can expand themselves 00:00:23 said expansion is execution 00:00:39 like |~/send=|append ~/inbox $* 00:00:41 that's so beautiful 00:00:44 i'm going to cry 00:00:53 um, i should implement my conception of all this. 00:00:58 but WHICH LANGUAGE... 00:01:09 |goto ~/send 00:01:10 ZOMGMODULES: 00:01:21 |~/send=help 00:01:22 ZOMGMODULES: help 00:01:26 |~/send 00:01:26 ZOMGMODULES: help 00:01:27 hmmm 00:01:29 |~/test=|help 00:01:29 elliott: |help 00:01:30 |~/test 00:01:31 elliott: |help 00:01:32 |goto ~/send 00:01:32 ZOMGMODULES: help 00:01:35 :( 00:01:36 ZOMGMODULES: that seems broken a bit to me 00:01:42 like, if a variable expands to something starting with |, it should re-execute 00:01:46 well 00:01:53 the goto stuff makes less sense so that's kinda a point in its favour 00:01:55 i thought it did -- not with | though 00:01:58 but it's not, like, elegantly ugly 00:02:11 goto should totally derefence 00:02:20 "|~/foo=|~/bar" has a nice symmetry to it. 00:02:28 oh wait 00:02:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:02:30 |help exp 00:02:30 ZOMGMODULES: All items in [brackets] are replaced by their value, in a recursive, depth-first manner. 00:02:36 i'd then expect "|goto ~/foo" to uh 00:02:39 execute |~/bar 00:02:43 then execute |(its final output) 00:02:46 |[~/send] 00:02:46 ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 00:02:50 so if |~/bar=foo 00:02:51 see 00:02:56 elliott: what about Redivider? 00:02:57 execute = [] 00:03:04 ZOMGMODULES: but but 00:03:08 tswett: PERFECT FOR IRC BOTS 00:03:23 |~/send=~/send 00:03:23 ZOMGMODULES: ~/send 00:03:26 Sgeo: the reason I'm using Smalltalk is that it's persistent; is Newspeak that? 00:03:27 |[~/send] 00:03:27 ZOMGMODULES: ~/send 00:03:29 elliott: oh, okay. 00:03:34 |goto [~/send] 00:03:34 ZOMGMODULES: ~/send 00:03:38 tswett, yes 00:03:43 |~/send=goto ~/send 00:03:43 ZOMGMODULES: goto ~/send 00:03:45 newspeak is built on squeak 00:03:46 |[~/send] 00:03:46 ZOMGMODULES: goto ~/send 00:03:48 but 00:03:51 stop feeding Sgeo's language addiction 00:03:58 |~/send=[goto ~/send] 00:03:59 ZOMGMODULES: goto ~/send 00:04:02 |[~/send] 00:04:02 ZOMGMODULES: goto ~/send 00:04:03 |~/shits=[help] 00:04:03 elliott: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 00:04:03 elliott: 00:04:04 grrrr 00:04:06 ... 00:04:08 that sucks 00:04:11 all expansion should be lazy :D 00:04:19 Sgeo: do you know if Newspeak has sandboxing? 00:04:24 i think currently expansion is SOMETIMES 00:04:38 (elliott: do you see where this is going?) 00:04:54 i totally figured out how to do a loop in this, once 00:04:54 tswett: yes, you're about to pick an inferior language with bad non-Windows IDE support 00:04:58 tswett, in theory, it should. But currently, it being based on Squeak is a severe detriment to that goal 00:05:11 |/global=hi 00:05:11 ZOMGMODULES: hi 00:05:15 |/global 00:05:15 ZOMGMODULES: hi 00:05:16 elliott, hey, there are some bugs in the Windows IDE! 00:05:19 |ls 00:05:19 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 00:05:22 |help 00:05:22 ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 00:05:23 uhh 00:05:29 |help commands 00:05:29 ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors 00:05:30 newspeak is pretty inherently sandboxed in a shitty way isn't it 00:05:34 because of the module systemd 00:05:38 ZOMGMODULES: NAME A LANGUAGE 00:05:55 elliott: you really don't want that 00:06:02 elliott, but supposedly, the Squeak VM means that code can currently break out easily, I think. Apparently, at some point it's going to be moved off 00:06:03 ZOMGMODULES: oh i do 00:06:23 well, I can't make you write it in R, because I'm reserving that particular insanity for myself. 00:06:26 Well, even without the Squeak, there's currently a "blackMarket" 00:06:29 otherwise I totally would 00:06:30 ZOMGMODULES: oh i don't 00:06:30 R 00:06:36 seriously 00:06:36 Well, I guess that's not without Squeak 00:06:40 are you seriously going to do that 00:06:47 i might respond to that masochism by writing it in python 00:06:48 I... 00:07:02 I would like to write a VERY SIMPLE BOT IN R just to prove it's possible. 00:07:13 I would not like to reimplement mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot in R. 00:07:28 ZOMGMODULES: http://www.rstudio.org/ actually makes me want to use R a bit :) 00:07:31 I... ok let's try another one 00:07:33 just because it's so pretty. 00:07:35 and nice. 00:07:44 STRING MANIPULATION IN R IS HEAVENLY 00:07:50 PICK ANOTHER LANGUAGE 00:07:59 GO 00:08:04 You know you want to. 00:08:18 I am so neutral about that that it sounds so boring. 00:08:26 ZOMGMODULES, the esolang I kind of pondered ma... oh, dur 00:08:28 I don't think string manipulation is Go's forte :P 00:08:41 I wonder if IDSSST has... what's the word. 00:08:42 Sockets. 00:08:58 you doan need zockets you juss need stdio and NETCAT 00:09:07 nope, no sockets 00:09:09 I'd have to 00:09:09 WRITE 00:09:10 MY 00:09:10 OWN 00:09:21 ZOMGMODULES: hey you speque elliottese too 00:10:14 guh 00:10:15 link to hackety.org 00:10:18 sadness organs engaged 00:10:21 Sgeo: You what? 00:10:32 SHUT UP 00:10:34 I'M BUSY BEING SAD 00:10:44 would naming another language happy you? 00:10:53 maybe. 00:11:03 wait what's hackety org 00:11:10 ZOMGMODULES, wondered about making a language based on how a Go bot.. or perhaps a hypothetical perfect player.. would play Go 00:11:14 why's last blog 00:11:18 also his best blog 00:11:27 oh. sad. ok 00:11:33 CLOJURE 00:11:36 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Whytheluckystiff.jpg RIP JACK BLACK 00:11:40 ZOMGMODULES: OMG KILL YOURSELF 00:12:01 whoa 00:12:04 stanislav just made a post about clojure 00:12:06 COINKIDINK? 00:12:15 Grah, stupid broser 00:12:20 i don't care, i don't read that drivel anymore 00:12:31 {{DEFAULTSORT:Stiff, Why The Lucky}} 00:12:43 ZOMGMODULES: I'm sorry, but did you not just misspell erudite thought? 00:12:51 hey elliott: want to attempt to debug this? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=8jEXs0vE 00:12:57 Sgeo: this would be Go the language rather than Go the board game 00:13:05 perhaps you got that 00:13:06 elliott, all I see is a post about C# 00:13:12 ZOMGMODULES: I AM VERY OFFENDED AT YOUR IMPLICATION RIGHT NOW 00:13:19 Imk0tter: uh oh 00:13:42 "Clojure is a nice, clean replacement for Common Lisp only if thumbs are nice, clean replacements for cars." ;; theory: removing the links from this blog makes it 10x funnier 00:13:46 thumbs! 00:14:02 http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=HJNzKvwk 00:14:09 (forgot to copy the variables) 00:14:17 elliott: what, that stanislav's mind is a SLAVERING MASS OF TOXIC PLUTONIUM SPLINTERS? 00:14:37 ZOMGMODULES: YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS THAT HIS BLOG IS MORE INTERESTING THAN YOUR BANAL PYTHON WORK 00:14:39 OOOOH I WENT THERE 00:14:41 CAPITAL CASE 00:14:48 Capital Case: good band/album name 00:15:04 ffff maybe i'll write it in... grep 00:15:05 yes 00:15:06 grep 00:15:08 that is a good langauge to write things in 00:15:31 heyy... 00:15:33 i could use awk! 00:15:38 ZOMGMODULES: AWK! 00:15:46 you could in fact use awk 00:15:56 elliott, I can't seem to find Slava's blog 00:15:58 i could! 00:16:04 Or at least, not a blog mentioning Clojure 00:16:52 Oh... Loper OS dude 00:16:54 Not Slava 00:16:56 * Sgeo facepalms 00:17:11 anyone want to attempt to debug this: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=HJNzKvwk 00:17:28 I think the worst part of mzstorkipiwanbot's being in Lua is those non-standard regexps 00:18:08 ...Is the Loper OS person a moron? It's not really size of a standard library that matters (well, it does kind of matter), but consistancy is really what's.. needed 00:18:09 Ish 00:18:11 I think 00:18:14 nc: invalid option -- 'e' 00:18:15 asodjgfdjg 00:18:29 there 00:18:31 nc.traditional has it 00:18:31 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:18:37 huh 00:18:41 why'd you not say the thing i asked you to say 00:18:56 Sgeo: "moron" is not the word *I* would choose 00:19:12 Hmm 00:19:13 Sgeo: no, he's not a moron 00:19:18 I would choose much more colorful words 00:19:22 and what you said is vaguely incoherent 00:19:34 ZOMGMODULES: WATCH YOUR TONGUE MISTER 00:19:36 awk awk awk 00:20:09 awk is a product of decadent unix technology, which is a product of poisonthought. you are chosing your doom. 00:20:24 pretty much, yep 00:20:46 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:20:51 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:20:53 "I chosed it" -- bumper sticker on your doom 00:20:59 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:21:04 ZOMGMODULES: this is the worst imitation of stanislav ever 00:21:30 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=316 hmm 00:21:32 but possibly the single funniest! to me, anyway 00:21:40 I kind of see and agree with what he's saying 00:22:09 Sgeo: now get really RIGHTEOUS about it 00:22:13 Yet the ravishing hordes of underlings which see fit to perform savagery on that which does not meet their peanut-gallery ideals of the rotting flesh-corpse that is Unix still insist that using AWK is the finest way to process lines of text. These people have clearly never thought for one second. 00:22:37 Sgeo: Most of what Stanislav says is right, everything about the way he says it is wrong :-P 00:22:46 ZOMGMODULES: come on, that hurt ^ 00:23:37 * ZOMGMODULES incapacitated with lol 00:23:44 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309 00:24:20 post title: On the Undying Non-Viscousness of Concepts, or If You Can't Sell It To 'Em, Steal It From Them 00:24:31 He doesn't seem to consider that many computers these days do use non-programmable parts for video decoding for performance purposes -- althogh I'm sure he sees that as a sin. Or perhaps we could work out reprogrammable video cards? 00:24:50 Reprogrammable video cards... gee, like a GPU? 00:25:34 Oh. Hah. What about mobile devices though? 00:25:35 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:25:35 wtf? 00:25:42 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:49 USER ciconia 8 * ciconia 00:25:49 NICK ciconia 00:25:49 JOIN #esoteric 00:25:49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:25:29 BST 2011 00:25:51 looks aight to me... 00:26:16 oh, wtf 00:26:19 oh oh i'm beginning to remember 00:26:23 Oh, and he also adresses my concern, durgh 00:26:24 [~/Code/ciconia]% ./first.awk 130 00:26:24 USER ciconia 8 * ciconia 00:26:24 NICK ciconia 00:26:24 JOIN #esoteric 00:26:24 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:25:54 BST 2011 00:26:24 ^[[A^C 00:26:25 [~/Code/ciconia]% ./first.awk | cat -v 130 00:26:27 USER ciconia 8 * ciconia^M 00:26:29 NICK ciconia^M 00:26:31 JOIN #esoteric^M 00:26:33 ZOMGMODULES: wat 00:26:42 |~storkbot/BRA 00:26:42 ZOMGMODULES: [ 00:26:55 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:26:56 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:26:37 BST 2011 00:26:58 :D 00:27:02 |[~storkbot/BRA]/foo[~storkbot/KET] 00:27:03 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 00:27:13 shut up bra 00:27:17 i'm admiring 00:28:03 |~/foo=[~storkbot/BRA]~/foo[~storkbot/KET] 00:28:04 ZOMGMODULES: [~/foo] 00:28:06 |~/foo 00:28:07 ZOMGMODULES: [~/foo] 00:28:07 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]<-]<-]<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<< [->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>>++++++[<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]+[<<<<<<<<<<<<<[->>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<]>>>[->>>>>>+<<<<<<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>[>[-<->>>+<]<<]<[>]>>>>>+<[-<<<<<<<<->>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<[[-]>>>>>>>>>->-<<<<<<<< 00:28:07 Mismatched []. 00:28:07 <<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>>>>>>]<[->>+>+<<<]>>+[->>>>>>>>>>>[<]<+>>[>]<<<<<<<<<<<<]>>>>>>>>>>>[<]>[-]>[>]<<<<<<<<<<<[-<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]<[->>>>>>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<]>>>>>>>>>>>>]>[-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>[-]<[>>++++++++++[-<<->>]<+<]>[->+<<+>]>[-<+>]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<<<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 00:28:07 ++++++++++++++[->+>+>+>+>+>+<<<<<<]>.>.>.>.>.>. 00:28:21 |goto ~/foo 00:28:22 ZOMGMODULES: [~/foo] 00:28:22 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:27 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:28:28 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:28:09 BST 2011 00:28:29 ,eval 2 00:28:29 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:31 :( 00:28:34 |~/foo=goto [~storkbot/BRA]~/foo[~storkbot/KET] 00:28:35 ZOMGMODULES: goto [~/foo] 00:28:35 no eval in gawk 00:28:39 |~/foo 00:28:39 ZOMGMODULES: goto [~/foo] 00:28:45 |goto ~/foo 00:28:45 ZOMGMODULES: goto [~/foo] 00:28:48 grrrr 00:28:50 wait 00:28:53 awk doesn't have eval?? 00:28:54 that's weird 00:29:03 that just ain't right 00:29:51 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:29:51 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:29:32 BST 2011 00:29:52 ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! 00:29:56 hmph 00:30:02 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:30:07 |~/foo=[~storkbot/BRA]~/foo[~storkbot/KET] 00:30:07 ZOMGMODULES: [~/foo] 00:30:07 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:30:07 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:29:49 BST 2011 00:30:10 ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! 00:30:11 |[~/foo] 00:30:11 ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help. 00:30:15 wtf? 00:30:17 |print [~/foo] 00:30:17 ZOMGMODULES: [~/foo] 00:30:28 i... but the code, she recurses there! 00:30:31 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:30:43 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:30:43 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:30:25 BST 2011 00:30:47 ,say hello 00:30:48 hello 00:30:54 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:31:00 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:31:00 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:30:42 BST 2011 00:31:13 if you want dynaic code use a language that's designed for this purpose 00:31:22 ZOMGMODULES: i think he's telling me that if i want lisp i know where to find it 00:31:25 ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi 00:31:25 hi 00:31:44 ZOMGMODULES: WHAT SHOULD I ADD TO CICONIA APART FROM THE LANGUAGE 00:31:57 *sigh* 00:32:01 Is SqueakNOS still dead? 00:32:17 s/still// 00:32:29 -!- sk has joined. 00:32:30 elliott: um... geocaching? 00:32:38 * ZOMGMODULES is not even sure what that means 00:32:56 Oh look, 17 months that had emails from 2006 to now 00:33:00 -!- sk has left. 00:33:09 SO EXCITED 00:33:33 * Sgeo wants to run Smalltalk as a primary OS 00:33:35 * Sgeo sads 00:33:38 how interesting, emacs is indenting the code with 8 spaces 00:33:39 not tabs, 8 spaces 00:34:16 ok, forget you storkbot. i am totally going to implement a bot in R. 00:34:22 frankly, I need awk because writing an IRC bot in awk is my favourite kind of perverse, and I need eval() because otherwise it'll be completely useless :-) 00:34:22 well, people have written network stuff with gawk, they didn't need eval 00:34:27 ZOMGMODULES: i hate irc channels ^ 00:34:38 first they interrogate you 00:34:40 WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS 00:34:41 WHYYYY 00:34:46 then when you finally give them a good reason 00:34:53 they just waffle on so you don't realise they don't have a fucking clue 00:35:45 After this operation, 94.1MB of additional disk space will be used. 00:35:51 -!- ciconia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:36:22 i'm really, really surprised there is no eval() in gawk 00:37:34 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:37:35 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:37:15 BST 2011 00:38:01 ,say QUIT :xuhh 00:38:01 what's up now 00:38:02 -!- ciconia has quit (Client Quit). 00:38:05 oh 00:38:07 ciconia is still alye 00:38:08 ve 00:38:17 ill wait for it to ping out 00:39:06 oh dear lord! gawk has ZOMGMODULES 00:39:15 extension(object, function) Dynamically link the shared object file named by object, and invoke function in that object, to perform initialization. These should both be provided as strings. Returns the value returned by function. 00:40:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:42:11 ZOMGMODULES: why has it not died yet 00:42:58 it's one tough cookie 00:44:08 tswettbot: I congratulate you on still existing. 00:44:14 why did I not write down haw you do input in R? 00:44:39 whoa 00:44:39 wtf 00:44:40 lag 00:44:41 so 00:44:41 much 00:44:43 lag 00:44:51 like 00:44:53 clue 00:44:53 ,say QUIT :xuhh 00:44:53 what's up now 00:44:53 oh 00:44:53 ciconia is still alye 00:44:54 ve 00:44:56 ill wait for it to ping out 00:44:58 ODULES> After this operation, 94.1MB of additional disk space will be used. 00:45:00 * ciconia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 00:45:02 i'm really, really surprised there is no eval() in gawk 00:45:04 * ciconia (~ciconia@91.104.253.144) has joined #esoteric 00:45:06 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:37:15 BST 2011 00:45:10 * ciconia has quit (Client Quit) 00:45:12 oh dear lord! gawk has ZOMGMODULES 00:45:14 extension(object, function) Dynamicall 00:45:16 how did that even happen 00:45:18 logs show it happening in a normal order 00:45:20 but no 00:45:22 somehow 00:45:24 SOMEHOW 00:45:26 everyone else saw it join and quit on my command 00:45:28 but i didn't see it at all 00:45:30 until just now 00:45:32 WTF FREENODE 00:45:34 WTF 00:45:55 lol 00:45:57 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:45:58 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:45:36 BST 2011 00:46:07 ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello 00:46:07 hello 00:46:10 <3 00:46:10 <3 00:46:13 ... 00:46:13 ... 00:46:16 well that's not right 00:46:17 well that's not right 00:46:23 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:46:24 -!- ciconia has quit (Client Quit). 00:46:29 uhhh 00:46:30 elliott: I take it it wasn't meant to echo everything you said? 00:46:32 how did it quit 00:46:34 ais523: indeed 00:46:37 and how did it quit 00:46:39 elliott: my bot quit, so yours quit. 00:46:43 did you exit the program? 00:46:54 no 00:47:01 It's echoing all messages that are not otherwise handled. 00:47:07 i doubt it 00:47:09 With no processing whatsoever. 00:47:11 since that would include the prefix 00:47:18 The IRC server will just ignore the prefix, I believe. 00:47:22 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:47:23 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:47:04 BST 2011 00:47:26 IS IT TRUE, POOPHEAD? you didn't do that before! 00:47:26 IS IT TRUE, POOPHEAD? you didn't do that before! 00:47:28 ,say helloa... 00:47:29 but 00:47:30 but 00:47:31 i just fixed that 00:47:31 i just fixed that 00:47:33 wtf jerk 00:47:33 wtf jerk 00:47:40 i 00:47:40 i 00:47:43 have no idea why it is doing that 00:47:43 have no idea why it is doing that 00:47:56 grah 00:47:56 grah 00:47:59 * tswett ponders how to get the bot to do something dangerous. 00:47:59 * ciconia ponders how to get the bot to do something dangerous. 00:48:09 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:48:13 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:48:14 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:47:56 BST 2011 00:48:15 ,say hello 00:48:17 pfkgpfghk 00:48:18 ... 00:48:21 THAT IS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT 00:48:43 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:49:08 iusdhfiusdhf 00:49:10 this is so stupid 00:49:19 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:49:20 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:49:01 BST 2011 00:49:21 ,say hello 00:49:24 .......... 00:49:35 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:49:39 -!- ciconia has joined. 00:49:40 The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:49:21 BST 2011 00:49:41 ,say hello 00:49:46 . . . 00:49:46 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :. 00:49:53 hate hate hate 00:49:53 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :hate 00:49:57 x <- readLines(n=1) 00:49:57 x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :x 00:49:59 hate you too 00:49:59 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :hate 00:50:14 the only thing nicer than string manipulation in R, is I/O in R. 00:50:15 x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :the 00:50:15 ,say 00:50:16 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :,say 00:50:18 ,say whats her 00:50:23 i need dinner though 00:50:23 x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :i 00:50:26 ................................................................................................................................ 00:50:26 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :................................................................................................................................ 00:50:28 ,say whats her 00:50:29 so i will be back l7r 00:50:30 x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :so 00:50:30 HOW 00:50:30 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW 00:50:35 HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW OWH WOH WOH WO HWO WHO WO HWO HWO HOW HOW HWO HOW HWO HWOH 00:50:35 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW 00:50:37 ej eohoer 00:50:38 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :ej 00:50:38 * ais523 tests 00:50:39 tpjjo 00:50:39 x:ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG :ACTION 00:50:39 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :tpjjo 00:50:42 y 00:50:42 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :y 00:50:44 ok wait 00:50:44 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :ok 00:50:46 ,say 00:50:46 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :,say 00:50:47 ,say x 00:50:50 x:ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG :TEST 00:50:50 HOW IS THAT EVEN 00:50:50 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW 00:51:05 $1 ~ /^:elliott!/ && $2 == "PRIVMSG" && $4 == ":,say" { 00:51:06 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :$1 00:51:06 sub(/^.*,say /, "") 00:51:06 print 00:51:06 fflush() 00:51:06 } 00:51:06 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG : 00:51:06 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG : 00:51:06 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG : 00:51:06 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :} 00:51:09 HOW 00:51:10 x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW 00:51:11 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:51:12 does that not work 00:51:19 how does it trigger for ,say x 00:51:19 gah, I was about to /notice it 00:51:20 but not ,sa 00:51:22 ,say 00:51:26 and how when it triggers for ,say x 00:51:28 does it not say x 01:01:18 Okay, time for stuff. 01:01:24 PHARO 01:02:25 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>). 01:03:51 ZOMGMODULES: write a bot in yacc 01:03:58 BEST IDEA 01:06:50 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:07:04 tswettbot: POOP 01:07:05 -!- augur has joined. 01:07:11 tswett: let me tell it to say things again 01:07:51 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:15 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:09:00 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:09:18 I'm doing something even better. 01:09:20 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:09:24 tswettbot: 3 + 5 01:09:27 -!- Lymia has joined. 01:09:32 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 01:09:32 -!- Lymia has joined. 01:09:39 Er, right. 01:09:41 http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/rails-can-scale ;; :D 01:09:42 tvvl: 3 + 5 01:09:44 i lol'd 01:09:50 tvvl: TAUAM IMG IERM OIJ OIJG IORJ OIER;G JER;OIG JIORG POOP 01:10:40 Er, er, er. 01:11:07 -!- tswettbot2 has joined. 01:11:12 tvvl: 3 + 5 01:11:15 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:11:47 tswett: So is this Pharo it's executing? 01:11:54 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:11:59 Ideally. 01:12:22 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:12:24 tvvl: 3 + 5 01:12:26 kill kill kill 01:13:28 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:13:37 * tswett fixes 10,000 obvious mistakes. 01:13:46 Obvious-in-retrospect mistakes, that is. 01:14:10 "tvvl" stands for "tswettbot evaluate", by the way. 01:14:38 I think freenode has decided to stop connecting me. 01:14:46 "Found your hostname. No Ident response. 01:14:47 WEOJIR 01:14:47 EGOJ 01:14:48 FK 01:14:48 E 01:14:50 "Well?" 01:14:51 -!- tswettbot2 has joined. 01:14:55 tvvl: 7 01:14:56 "Yep, that's it." 01:14:57 Oh, here it is. 01:15:01 tvvl: be a person 01:15:04 tvvl: fight the world 01:15:07 tvvl: ARCHUIW 01:15:11 ZOMGMODULES: How goes the R 01:15:12 It hasn't received your 7. 01:15:17 tswett: NEITHER 01:15:17 HAS 01:15:18 YOUR 01:15:19 MOM 01:15:25 Ponder that for a second. 01:15:35 I just did. It's meaningless. 01:15:40 THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID 01:16:08 -!- tswettbot3 has joined. 01:16:14 tswettbot3: do better. 01:16:15 tvvl: 9 01:16:16 9 01:16:20 tvvl: 3 + 5 01:16:20 8 01:16:44 There. Now tell it to do something that is destructive, but not to my hard drive. 01:16:50 Or its contents. 01:16:53 tvvl: true become: false 01:17:03 Good job. 01:17:03 I was looking for how to delete a file in Squeak, but it seems too difficult. 01:17:10 And I am very lazy. 01:17:12 I think the image crashed. 01:17:21 -!- tswettbot3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:17:21 Yes, (true become: false) tends to have that effect. 01:17:22 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:18:02 -!- tswettbot has joined. 01:18:07 tvvl: + + + + + 01:18:09 it crashes the image every time I've tried it in Squeak 01:18:22 tvvl: 3 and: 5 01:18:31 Oh, the bot has stopped. 01:18:31 ais523: maybe stop trying it, then 01:21:21 tswett, why were you expecting it not to crash? 01:21:31 Sgeo: expecting what not to crash? 01:21:36 The bot 01:21:44 You said to do something descritbive 01:21:46 When we did what to it? 01:21:48 descrutive 01:21:56 I thoughth you were implying that you sandboxed it 01:21:57 Ah. I did expect the image to crash. 01:22:06 I was planning on throwing it away and reverting. 01:22:15 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:24:32 ZOMGMODULES: fuck it, i'll write it in python 01:24:41 yes i am ashamed. 01:24:59 ZOMGMODULES: btw |...=... is totally syntax, syntax is evil, you should make it a function 01:25:00 NO WAIT BETTER 01:25:05 make variables regexps 01:25:13 so that the variable name for assignment 01:25:15 is .*=.* 01:25:25 :-\ 01:27:25 -!- nottwo has joined. 01:27:45 variable: what. 01:27:55 elliott: nothing 01:27:58 forget it 01:28:02 variable thinks i'm crazy. 01:28:04 :)) 01:28:12 -!- mycrofti1 has joined. 01:28:13 hi nottwo 01:28:17 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 01:28:17 hello nottwo 01:28:55 -!- calamari_ has joined. 01:29:21 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | variable. 01:29:33 variable: to quote Bob Dylan, how does it feel? 01:30:03 To quote Kurt Gödel, "stop poisoning my food". 01:30:07 *eminent mathematician 01:30:28 nottwo: btw cpressey is here now :P 01:30:29 "Stop poisoning my eminent mathematician"? 01:30:33 tswett: Yes. 01:30:37 -!- z^ck has joined. 01:30:44 oh god it's an invasion 01:30:50 first nottwo 01:30:55 then mycrofti1 and quintopi1, and as we all know, 1 is nottwo 01:30:59 I guess Kevan Davis proves that a person can call themselves "my ", where is a thing they are. 01:31:04 then calamari_ decided to join because he's evil 01:31:07 now z^ck 01:31:12 WHAT IS THIS. 01:31:26 tswett: What. 01:31:40 You know. Urban Dead. 01:31:44 -!- lament has joined. 01:31:49 I haven't played it. 01:31:56 I REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS JUST BLOGNOMIC 01:32:01 BEFORE YOU WISING POPPYCOCKS GOT A HOLD OF HIM 01:32:06 (I don't) 01:32:26 -!- rodgort` has joined. 01:33:31 tswett: Are you currently a player of Agora Nomic? 01:33:40 Yes. 01:33:50 I think. Why, do you know something I don't? 01:34:04 tswett: Well, it *does* seem to flip every month or so. 01:34:09 R has not started yet, still getting food. 01:34:10 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:10 -!- nottwo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:12 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:12 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:13 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:14 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:16 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:20 HA 01:34:23 TAKE THAT, INVADERS 01:34:34 My registeredness flips as often as one-dimensional Brownian motion crosses the origin. 01:34:48 tswett: sorry - bacjk 01:34:56 tswett: So, every month? 01:35:02 Precisely. 01:35:09 variable: no harm done. 01:35:11 I like this New Kind of Mathematics. 01:35:15 tswett: I guess I should have known picking this name should have 01:35:19 * picking this name 01:35:29 * variable is away for the night 01:35:33 Uhh, you made no changes to that statement, and it's still incorrect :P 01:35:35 -!- ZOMGMODULES has changed nick to constant. 01:35:41 Incorrect as in incoherent :P 01:35:42 take THAT 01:35:52 -!- elliott has changed nick to const_pointer_to. 01:35:54 :( 01:36:01 -!- const_pointer_to has changed nick to const_int_star. 01:37:37 Whelp. It's that time. 01:38:25 Wait. I just realized that tswettbot is currently a fully functional nomic. 01:38:29 A bad one, but still fully functional. 01:38:46 It has *none* of the features I think a nomic should have. 01:38:53 Apart from the two most important ones. :P 01:39:24 -!- const_int_star has changed nick to elliott. 01:39:50 -!- constant has changed nick to tswettbot. 01:40:07 I am sending a message. 01:40:13 tswettbot: I shrug at you. 01:40:21 * tswett shrugs. 01:40:36 -!- tswettbot has changed nick to catseye. 01:40:41 o_O 01:44:33 xD 01:46:03 -!- calamari_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:48:51 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:49:57 TeXnicard is now a large enough program that the table of contents requires two pages. 01:51:16 I doubt it will ever reach table of contents three pages. 01:51:37 (But, it is still possible, I guess) 01:52:34 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:52:39 -!- coppro has joined. 01:53:17 -!- elliott_ has joined. 01:53:18 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:53:30 Bye, elliott. 01:53:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:54:27 tswett: HI 01:54:37 Do you bet the number of pages of the table of contents, or the number of pages in total? 01:54:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:55:16 -!- r-bot has joined. 01:55:21 elliott_: welcome back. 01:55:27 HELLO 01:55:30 r-bot: oh god 01:55:31 woo 01:55:34 and now bye 01:55:36 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:55:38 -!- r-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:55:43 THAT'S NO BOT 01:55:48 ais523 ais523 ais523 01:57:29 [Error] *: No such nick/channel. 01:57:38 what 01:57:42 something went wrong between the PMing, I think 01:57:48 I got something like nine or ten copies of that 01:57:51 ais523: well, I've re-sent everything :P 01:57:59 try reopening the query, I'll resend it if you want 01:58:23 I've resent in /msg 02:01:25 * tswett slaps his forehead as he realizes that Unix systems come with a sandbox for free. 02:01:32 It's called userland, isn't it? 02:01:45 Alternatively, it can be called Not Giving Everything Root Access. 02:02:12 It's not fully useful, of course, but it's... useful enough. 02:02:20 elliott_, finally got it to work :) 02:02:45 If you really need some more, then maybe you would need to use system call emulation, as well 02:03:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:03:32 Imk0tter: :) 02:03:43 "Because you have not entered a password for this user account, anyone can log in to your computer." I didn't know that's how passwordless accounts work... 02:04:13 tswett: It is, if it is allowed that that account is able to log in at all. 02:04:23 there are two sorts of passwordless, no authentication, and impossible passwords so that only other forms of authentication can be used 02:04:30 Then anyone can log in if they know the username. 02:04:30 I should disable login for this account, then. 02:04:32 the second's quite common for root nowadays 02:04:52 You know what, I'm doing this tomorrow. Good night, everybody. 02:05:07 elliott_, thanks for your help 02:05:10 saved me a heap of time 02:05:14 np 02:06:58 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:09:04 Never stub your small toe. 02:09:06 Good lord. 02:09:09 So much pain. 02:09:32 The pain has expanded from my small toe to the next toe down. It was too much pain for one toe. 02:10:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:10:18 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:10:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:11:45 Gregor: Been there, done that. 02:12:21 I have stub my toes sometimes before, but not today. 02:14:11 -!- comex_ has changed nick to SOMEONE_. 02:23:11 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: IRC is still bad for my health). 02:33:25 http://pastebin.com/cFRFR1hp 02:47:34 -!- stray100 has joined. 02:48:50 hello world 02:49:17 hello stray 02:50:03 -!- Lymia has joined. 02:50:03 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 02:50:03 -!- Lymia has joined. 02:53:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:54:04 tell me why I'm here 02:54:17 please 02:54:29 I don't know why you're here 02:54:31 to serve as a counterexample to others. 02:54:34 although hopefully, you have a good reason 02:54:49 things happening for no reason is annoying 02:56:06 it is annoying, but maybe I have no reason. I hope thats nothing worth lamenting 02:56:49 stray100, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=AZKNe3g4 02:57:19 Imk0tter: is stray100 a friend of yours? 02:57:28 ais523, you might as well check it out as well 02:58:18 I generally don't follow links without a good idea of what's at the other end 02:58:30 don't worry about it, its safe 02:58:31 ais523, it's an integer displayer i wrote in brainfuck 02:58:32 I think 02:58:43 ah, that's interesting 02:58:50 stray100: not just that, pastebins generally are 02:58:54 only took 12 hours 02:58:55 but I only have so much mental bandwidth 02:59:27 hmm, is that designed for bignum brainfuck? 02:59:36 yeah 02:59:40 -!- elliott has joined. 02:59:46 i'm almost certain that program could be a one-liner. 02:59:47 or close. 02:59:55 maybe a 5-liner 03:00:05 well. 03:00:11 i don't know what it does exactly 03:00:12 eh 03:00:14 input 64, get @ back? 03:00:24 input @ get back 64 03:00:36 well, there are very short decimal routines, I believe. 03:00:45 surecan 03:00:53 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/numwarp.b -- http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/numwarp.png 03:00:58 that's not a decimal routine, but 03:01:04 oh 03:01:05 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/factorial.b 03:01:07 this outputs in decimal 03:01:14 so basically it just needs the decimal part ripping out and , put in front 03:06:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:08:38 -!- mycrofti1 has changed nick to mycroftiv. 03:09:41 Invent a chess variant with a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 board. 03:09:57 -!- stray100 has quit (Quit: http://irc2go.com/). 03:11:01 No. 03:18:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:21:16 Hey, I got another chatroom to hate me! 03:27:45 Invent a chess variant with a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 board. // well, my brain just exploded 03:28:07 congratulations! 03:31:50 Should I change Codu's RDNS name to libdl.so? 03:32:10 Gregor: only if all its content is accessible that way 03:32:40 ais523: Presently http://libdl.so/ contains little more than a link to http://codu.org/ 03:32:44 amusingly, chrome refuses to go to libdl.so directly 03:32:50 it googles it, then asks me if i meant to go to the domain at the top 03:32:50 elliott: I'm well aware X_X 03:32:54 :D 03:32:58 THIS IS BECAUSE YOU FAIL 03:32:59 PERSONALLY 03:33:11 It is naturally the same for lib{c,m}.so 03:33:18 so did you get libm, or were you just not fiscally responsible enough 03:33:18 man 03:33:20 Firefox does not have this particular flaw. 03:33:21 that seems like a very dubious thing for Chrome to be doing 03:33:21 trolling you is too easy :/ 03:33:29 ais523: well, .so didn't exist until $recently 03:33:39 ais523: and googling for a so-name seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do 03:33:53 elliott: I pushed up the price of libm, thereby giving myself a strong likelihood of getting libc. The guy who bought libm had to bow out of the libc auction, leaving me in the lead if not for 449. 03:33:55 similarly, I'd expect some_magic_script.py to google for that 03:34:02 even if .py was added a few months ago :) 03:34:07 elliott: there should be some interface mechanism to distinguish, surely? 03:34:13 (.so has existed for ages, but has had like ~0 domains since then) 03:34:16 ais523: prepend http:// 03:34:24 ah, I'm OK with that 03:34:24 if you don't, it'll google and ask you if you meant to go to the domain 03:34:28 elliott: So yes, my wise fiscal choice with libm gave me a greater chance of getting libc, although that didn't work in the end. 03:34:42 although Chrome's deletion of http:// in the URL bar would make you have to retype it every time you wanted to edit the URL 03:34:42 ais523: also, if you do ?foo.so, i.e. explicitly search for it, it doesn't ask you at the top 03:34:45 which I do quite a lot 03:34:56 ais523: if you have a slash in, it interprets it as a URL always 03:34:59 so no worries 03:35:07 unless you're editing a subdomain, I guess 03:35:11 ah, OK 03:35:20 it may even remember whether it's a page you've loaded and special-case based on that, but that sounds like a pain to code so maybe not :) 03:35:21 even then, Web addresses often have a trailing slash 03:35:36 technically, domain names have a trailing dot, but nobody seems to care 03:36:13 http://ondioline.org/~sneakums/mail/now-more-scared-of-viro-than-ever ;; do not regret this google result for foo.libc.so at all 03:36:25 mentions dselect, ed, adb, SLS, plan 9 and intercal 03:36:28 cannot do wrong 03:36:41 and that's only in the first quote! 03:36:47 wait, what? 03:36:47 oh, I've read this before 03:37:05 Invent a new protocol and implement it on the libdl.so server 03:37:36 hmm, I wonder what kind of assembler lets you write "eax=foo;" 03:37:47 ais523: it's a semi-famous email by al viro 03:38:37 oh wait, it's not an assembler, he hard-wrote the machine code 03:38:38 hardcore 03:44:00 O, so some things was broken, and they realized how to fix it even though the computer wasn't working very well, is sometimes good thing to learn, instead of just to run the computer without understanding it........ 03:46:45 "I have a Negroid DVD with me." <-- awesome iPhone autocompletion. 03:46:59 tswett is evil. 03:47:02 s/autocompletion/autocorrection/ 03:47:11 Gregor: Please, my iPhone typing in here was far more impressive. 03:47:17 "Hey Gregor, dk't l ;a io iof WHAT its?" 03:47:37 What is a Negroid DVD? 03:47:52 Dark. 03:48:24 [~/esotericlogs]% grep '^..:..:.. <(ehird|alise)>' 10.*.* | wc -l 03:48:24 98606 03:48:24 [~/esotericlogs]% grep '^..:..:.. <(ehird|alise)iphone>' 10.*.* | wc -l 03:48:24 5201 03:48:24 How is that even possible... 03:48:40 I didn't have access to a computer for over half the entire year >_< 03:51:08 Guess! 03:52:33 ... 04:06:52 Is it valid in C to write something like sizeof(struct{...}) 04:07:04 Guess! 04:07:46 -!- zzo38 has left. 04:08:14 ...xD 04:08:23 Gregor: Do you think he guessed? 04:08:52 I think he was measuring sizeof(Negroid DVD) 04:10:56 Well, you know what they say about blacks. 04:11:05 They're SLIGHTLY better than Jews. 04:11:09 -!- augur has joined. 04:23:05 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:40:43 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:49:36 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:53:05 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:54:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:58:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:14:06 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:22:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:31:56 I used sizeof(struct{...}) I calculated 6 but it says 12 is that because it is padded to be word aligned? 05:34:14 most likely 05:42:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:15 I have typedef struct box_node { unsigned char type_and_subtype; struct box_node*next; union{...}; } box_node; Would it possibly be any more efficient in any ways at all if I switched around the order of the first two elements? 05:49:10 Are you going to write the c2 wiki article about PataProgramming? 06:26:26 -!- vishu91 has joined. 06:31:04 -!- vishu91 has left ("Leaving"). 06:32:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Now is not...). 06:42:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:42:36 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 06:42:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:46:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:56:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:58:51 (I am pretty sure Eliezer Yudkowsky once said "a".) 06:59:27 it would be rather impressive if somehow he has carefully avoided a particular common word for years without being detected. 08:10:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:27:14 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:36:53 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:36:53 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 08:36:53 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:44:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:01:28 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:03:18 -!- cheater- has joined. 09:13:10 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:13:13 Hi :-) 10:02:22 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:02:40 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:26:31 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:27:16 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:36:59 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]). 10:45:08 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:53:51 -!- yoR has joined. 11:05:41 -!- sftp has joined. 11:09:24 -!- yoR has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:23:45 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:03:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:03:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:05:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:05:19 -!- cheater00 has joined. 13:16:48 -!- augur has joined. 13:30:45 "doing" should be pronounced like "boing", but with a 'd' 13:57:03 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:57:55 Gregor: agreed :-) 13:57:55 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:57:59 http://twitter.com/#!/sijmen/status/53042404340662272 14:03:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:08:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:23:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:26:30 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:54:59 Apparently, elliott says I'm evil. 14:55:10 Yeah, he'll do that. 14:55:43 Also, note to self: Gregor's toes larger toes are farther down than his smaller ones. 14:55:54 elliott: what am I evil for? 14:55:56 And where are you? 14:56:14 Ah. I think he says I'm evil for sleeping. 14:56:30 elliott: and I bet you're awake right now. 14:56:34 tswett, I dread to ask how you know about Gregor's feet. 14:56:54 Phantom_Hoover: he said that the pain spread from his small toe to the next toe down. 14:57:12 Ah. 14:57:22 elliott: no, I'm pretty sure I don't have a backup of Normish, either. I mean, I might possibly. Someone else, like ais523, might also have one. 14:57:31 elliott: but really, is PerlNomic better than another nomic we could come up with? 15:06:37 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:07:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:13:08 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:20:06 i have been sitting here for like an hour just looking at tswett's question and i still don't get it 15:20:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:21:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:21:22 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:22:16 oklopol: the question "what am I evil for"? 15:22:32 APNIC down 0.09: 8k+2k+2x1k+/32 to Australia, 256k+16k+8k to China, 8k to Hong Kong, 1k+256 to Indonesia, 256k+128k+64k+8k+2x2k+6x1k+5x256 to India, 2k to Japan, 8k+/32 to Malaysia, 1k to Nepal, 1k+256 to New Zealand, 1k+256 to Pakistan, 512k+128k to Taiwan, 16k to Vietnam. 15:22:42 no 15:22:55 "Is PerlNomic better than another nomic we could come up with"? 15:23:17 knjh 15:23:31 I didn't get that; please repeat. 15:23:44 sorry accidentally answered in finnish 15:23:45 yes. 15:24:00 Depletion estimate still Wednesday, 13th April. 15:24:20 I'm inviting elliott to imagine another nomic we could come up with, and determine whether or not PerlNomic is better than it. 15:24:40 i'm not sure that's allowed 15:24:53 I have an override form. 15:25:11 Logspace left: /8.88 15:26:53 Relative depletion: 14.0%. 15:28:25 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:29:11 -!- R-type has joined. 15:29:23 hello, R-type 15:29:51 * cpressey clears his throat 15:30:03 hey R-type, what's up? 15:30:03 groan 15:30:27 R-type: is it true what they say, that you are an IRC bot I wrote in R? 15:30:28 groan 15:31:29 isn't it also true that when you look for "R-type" in what other people type, you're not exactly reliable, because R's idea of "stdin" (which differs from its idea of stdin()) drops characters? 15:31:30 groan 15:32:06 (stdin() is the currently executing program, btw) 15:32:34 * cpressey whacks R-type 15:32:34 groan 15:32:44 well, that was fun 15:32:47 -!- R-type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:32:49 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:40:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:04 -!- Imk0tter has quit. 15:45:53 -!- tswettbot-boxed has joined. 15:45:55 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 15:46:03 tswettbot-boxed should be sandboxed. 15:46:37 tvvl: 3 + 5 15:46:37 8 15:46:41 Treat it right good forever. 15:47:20 Don't crash it. Don't make outgoing network connections. If you must choose between crashing it and making outgoing network connections, crash it. 15:47:46 tvvl: make some outgoing network connections, please. 15:47:56 tvvl: 3 + 5 15:48:08 I guess you technically didn't crash it. 15:49:24 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 15:49:28 It's not crashed, but it is dead. 15:49:56 Don't forkbomb me or fill up my hard drive. Do try to execute code as root. If you succeed, please crash it and notify me. :P 15:50:58 -!- tswettbot-boxed has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:51:48 -!- tswettbot-boxed has joined. 15:51:54 -!- lament has joined. 15:52:32 Hi lament. 15:57:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:58:24 Also wow, APNIC exceeded 800Mi allocated/assigned IPv4 addresses. 15:59:20 Which is 50x/8. 16:01:07 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:03:07 Look, you can change tswettbot permanently. 16:03:18 tvvl: Object subclass: #StupidClass 16:03:19 StupidClass 16:03:25 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:03:51 Also, it might be that all the normal allocations APNIC will allocate are in alread (due to 5-day FIFO policy). 16:04:03 tvvl: Smalltalk saveSession 16:04:10 Smalltalk 16:04:17 Oh, I'm not sure it's capable of saving. 16:04:52 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:04:58 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:05:27 "Pharo cannot locate the sources file named /Applications/PharoV10.sources." 16:05:48 -!- augur has joined. 16:06:01 Anyway, there's now a class called StupidClass. 16:10:16 tvvl: Smalltalk platformName 16:10:16 Mac OS 16:11:17 tvvl: Smalltalk snapshot: true andQuit: true 16:11:18 -!- tswettbot-boxed has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:13:18 -!- tswettbot-boxed has joined. 16:13:22 Sure enough, it did indeed save successfully. 16:13:27 tvvl: StupidClass new 16:13:28 a StupidClass 16:15:52 tvvl: StupidClass removeFromSystem 16:15:53 AnObsoleteStupidClass 16:16:00 tvvl: StupidClass 16:16:00 nil 16:16:07 tvvl: AnObsoleteStupidClass 16:16:07 nil 16:21:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:45:11 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:45:35 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:50:18 can there exist decision problems that are equally difficult (for any of big-oh, big omega or big theta) yet not reducible to each other? 16:52:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:54:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:55:09 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:03:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:03:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:03:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:05:01 -!- wareya_ has joined. 17:07:50 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:09:15 -!- marchdown has joined. 17:15:25 can there exist decision problems that are equally difficult (for any of big-oh, big omega or big theta) yet not reducible to each other? 17:15:34 my guess is yes 17:17:08 but whether there actual examples, i don't know - but complexity theory seems to have a lot of trouble proving that things are not reducible to each other unless there is a clear O() separation 17:17:08 this sounds like a question that should have been proven? 17:17:38 if it's easy, somebody probably proved it. but it might be very hard... 17:17:44 because it seems to be so central to a lot of things 17:18:49 well for example the current guess would be that NP-complete and PSPACE-complete problems are disjoint, but both require exponential time 17:19:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:20:37 *whether there are 17:21:27 of course the guess is based on there being at least one measure (nondeterministic time) for which they are not O()-compatible. 17:21:58 For any complexity class C, wouldn't any problem that's known not to be C-complete qualify? I mean, if all other problems in the same class were reducible to it, wouldn't it then be C-complete? 17:22:42 Well, I guess that's not enough if you want it non-reducible both ways. 17:23:07 most complexity classes don't contain only problems of the same difficulty... 17:23:37 the complete ones being the most difficult ones, and all others being simpler. although not necessarily by all measures... 17:24:26 it is also known that if P is not NP then there are in-between problems that are neither P nor NP-complete. they might also qualify... 17:25:04 hm 17:25:15 NP-complete and BQP-complete (actually does BQP have complete problems?) might be two classes that are both probably exponential time yet not reducible either way 17:25:27 good. 17:25:29 thank you 17:25:33 at least that's the current guess 17:25:54 Complexity people seem to be all about guesswork. 17:25:54 as usual, no one can prove it :D 17:29:37 oerjan: approximation of jones polynomials is BQP-complete 17:30:00 aha 17:30:55 found a few online, but they're mostly behind pay walls 17:31:02 (articles about BQP, that is) 17:31:08 hmph 17:33:09 "Several natural BQP-complete problems", http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0606179 (Disclaimer: read only the abstract.) 17:34:31 exactly 17:40:47 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:56:36 -!- R-type has joined. 17:56:37 groan 17:56:37 groan 17:56:43 Hey R-type 17:56:52 Hey R-type, I said 17:56:53 groan 17:57:08 So, ok. In R, "stdin" is NON-BLOCKING. 17:57:59 R-type now connects directly to IRC by opening a connection with socketConnection(...,blocking=TRUE). So it no longer drops characters on input. But, it doesn't recognize its name at the end of a string. 17:58:00 groan 17:58:22 BETTER-types 17:58:22 groan 17:59:16 I'd like to make it :ACTION groans, but that would involve outputting a chr$(1) and I'm not at that level of R mastery yet. 18:00:16 -!- R-type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:07:01 Greatest configuration dialog option labels: "Restrict Real-Valued Ducks to Top Right Quadrant". 18:11:38 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:15:04 -!- R-Type has joined. 18:15:04 groan 18:15:04 groan 18:15:22 Hi there, R-Type 18:15:23 groan 18:15:52 length(grep(needle, haystack, fixed=TRUE)) > 0 FTW 18:17:37 groan 18:18:11 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:34 -!- R-Type has joined. 18:18:34 groan 18:18:34 groan 18:19:16 groan 18:19:19 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:23:38 -!- enki-[quit] has joined. 18:27:38 -!- cpressey has changed nick to BETTER-Types. 18:27:48 -!- R-Type has joined. 18:27:49 groan 18:27:49 groan 18:27:53 oh hai 18:27:53 groan 18:28:00 I agree 18:28:00 groan 18:28:05 -!- BETTER-Types has changed nick to cpressey. 18:28:19 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:41 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 18:28:50 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 18:28:50 -!- quintopia has joined. 18:28:56 "We're theoretical computer scientists -- we're obsessed with BETTER-Types" 18:39:48 -!- R-Type has joined. 18:40:35 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:44:05 Oh, today's APNIC address space consumption was only 76% of average. :-) 18:44:44 Average day would be 0.116. 18:47:30 -!- R-Type has joined. 18:47:30 * R-Type scowls 18:47:30 * R-Type scowls 18:47:39 hi again R-Type 18:47:40 * R-Type scowls 18:47:50 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:50:08 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:51:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:55:50 At present allocation rates, it takes about an hour on average to burn a /16. 18:59:03 http://pastebin.com/TNGJcMNq 18:59:40 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:00:12 R-Type is SO LUCKY to have been written in the LANGUAGE OF THE FUTURE: http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2011/03/revolutions-chief-scientist-r-is-the-language-of-the-future.html 19:00:46 -!- cpressey has quit (Client Quit). 19:18:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:18:29 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:36:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:37:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:50:58 -!- SOMEONE_ has changed nick to comex. 19:53:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:04:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:36:02 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:38:52 but whether there actual examples, i don't know - but complexity theory seems to have a lot of trouble proving that things are not reducible to each other unless there is a clear O() separation 20:39:02 I, uh, ... YES 20:40:04 * oerjan adds some coolant to cpressey's head to prevent it exploding 20:41:59 if only we could universally quantify constructively over the space of all terminating algorithms 20:42:14 "there, you see, no reduction." 20:42:14 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:43:09 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:49:06 lol cpressey 20:49:20 that video either passed through the shit filter 20:49:23 or is completely CGI 20:52:20 Imk0tter: the video with the guy talking about how R is the language of the future? It looked fine to me, but to even get it to play I had to right-click and select "Watch on YouTube" 20:58:11 ohh well in that case 20:58:26 maybe my internet is being regulated and passed through a shit filter 20:58:35 cause almost every video i see these days looks fake 21:04:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:09:09 -!- cheater- has joined. 21:17:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:41:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:43:59 -!- R-Type has joined. 21:43:59 * R-Type scowls 21:43:59 * R-Type scowls 21:44:06 I need to fix that 21:49:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 21:51:17 soooo.... the regexp engine can't return groups captured. 21:51:46 I... will have to use... dear me, this will be interesting. 22:02:54 strsplit(gsub('^:(.*?)\\!(.*?)\\s+PRIVMSG\\s+(.*?)\\s+\\:(.*?)$', '\\1\u2603\\2\u2603\\3\u2603\\4', line, perl=TRUE), '\u2603', fixed=TRUE) 22:03:06 UNICODE SNOWMAN AS FIELD SEPERATOR 22:09:01 ack, then to index this thing you have to say: nick <- foo[[1]][1]; channel <- foo[[1]][3]; ... 22:16:46 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:17:15 -!- R-Type has joined. 22:17:25 hi R-Type 22:17:25 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:19:25 tell me a reason why you wouldn't be using the unicode snowman for the field separator 22:21:16 -!- R-Type has joined. 22:21:26 hi R-Type 22:21:47 or anythign 22:21:55 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:18 sounds like he needs to put new batteries in his remote? 22:22:28 otherwise the garage door won't open 22:22:54 -!- R-Type has joined. 22:23:04 halloooooo 22:23:05 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:23:25 * cpressey is happy 22:23:25 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:24:00 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:27:24 -!- R-Type has joined. 22:27:32 * cpressey talks 22:27:37 la la la 22:27:40 oh hi R-Type 22:27:40 * R-Type groans 22:27:48 R-Type: cheer up 22:27:48 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:28:22 (I've modelled its personality after a cat I met once) 22:29:22 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:10 -!- Imk0tter has quit. 22:34:31 -!- R-Type has joined. 22:34:50 R-Type, catch sufficiently hello world 22:34:50 * R-Type hisses 22:35:04 you are lovely R-Type 22:35:04 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:35:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-Type 22:35:13 * R-Type groans 22:37:53 one more, R-Type 22:37:53 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:37:54 one more, R-Type 22:37:54 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:37:56 one more, R-Type 22:37:57 * R-Type groans 22:38:05 omg spam 22:38:15 omg not in this channel 22:38:22 that would NEVER happen. 22:38:42 just trying to get R-Type to exhibit its fourth behavior 22:38:42 * R-Type groans 22:38:56 lol 22:39:03 * cpressey pets R-Type 22:39:03 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:39:33 * cpressey throws ball of string past R-Type 22:39:34 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 22:39:57 random sample, my foot. If R isn't good at that, what IS it good for? 22:40:05 R-Type! 22:40:05 * R-Type hisses 22:42:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-Type_Tactics_II:_Operation_Bitter_Chocolate 22:42:25 groan 22:42:31 THERE you go, at last 22:49:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Guide knot). 23:02:20 tvvl: 'R-Type' 23:02:20 R-Type 23:02:20 groan 23:02:20 * R-Type groans 23:03:19 R-Type followed his own instruction. 23:03:19 * R-Type hisses 23:03:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-Type_Tactics_II:_Operation_Bitter_Chocolate <-- what a silly name 23:03:24 * R-Type hisses 23:03:42 You know what? I've had enough of "it". From now on, I'm referring to all things as either "him" or "her". 23:03:57 R-Type, why do you keep hissing? 23:03:57 * R-Type scowls at Vorpal 23:04:03 oh a bot 23:04:07 with that response time 23:04:36 hm 23:04:54 no CTCP VERSION reply from that bot 23:05:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:05:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 23:05:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:05:31 yes Vorpal, I did not find it desirable to implement that function in my bot 23:05:38 right 23:05:44 my bot, written in R, the language of the future 23:06:10 cpressey, R... Hm... Is that one of the crazily compact array ones? 23:06:29 like J and APL and so on 23:06:39 errrr it's one of the "array ones" but it's not so crazily compact as APL, no 23:06:47 right 23:06:55 it's for doing Data Science! 23:07:03 and writing bots! 23:07:04 R, J <-- I think there is a pattern in the names... 23:07:16 APL is pretty short too 23:07:23 there is K too isn't there? 23:07:24 are you refering to the fact that those names are both one letter long? 23:07:35 cpressey, yes and isn't there an array one called K as well? 23:07:50 well there's one called C. I believe it supports arrays 23:07:56 cpressey, har. 23:08:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:08:41 tswett: He's raining. 23:08:42 but really. R, J, K are all array processing languages. And have one letter names. There might be a pattern there. Should be investigated further. 23:08:55 cpressey: ...good point. 23:09:56 tswett: Might as well just speak French, if you're going to do that, I think. 23:10:11 "Look! There he has three birds!" 23:10:33 Or rather "He there has three birds!" 23:10:59 anyway 23:11:12 K is rather insane. Maybe... naw. 23:11:16 later 23:11:17 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:44:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:49:00 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:49:52 tswett, so, Pharo 1.2.1 was just released 23:50:14 Neat. 23:51:27 * Sgeo doesn't see alien support in the list of changes 23:51:53 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:57:32 Do they _test_ the non default themes? At all? 23:57:36 Pro sucks! 23:57:48 (buttons are hard to read) 23:58:26 It annoys me that there are global constants (variables?) that aren't classes. 23:58:32 Transcript and Smalltalk, for example. Maybe others. 2011-04-07: 00:00:45 Smalltalk at: #One put: 1. 00:09:00 -!- augur has joined. 00:10:39 Smalltalk globals keysAndValuesDo: [:key :value | 00:10:39 (value class class = Metaclass) ifFalse: [ 00:10:39 Transcript cr. 00:10:39 Transcript show: key]] 00:10:54 May have some false positives 00:14:29 In my image, there are 16. 00:15:12 I seem to have many more than 16 00:15:26 Some of them are traits. 00:15:29 Which are like classes. 00:15:35 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:15:38 -!- sftp_ has joined. 00:15:54 Ooh 00:16:10 Optimist, Sensor, SystemOrganization, World, Display, ActiveEvent, TextConstants, Smalltalk, Processor, ScheduledControllers, Transcript, SourceFiles, ActiveHand, ActiveWorld, Undeclared, ImageImports. 00:16:22 ActiveWorld! 00:16:28 :P 00:16:43 I don't have Optimist 00:16:52 Optimist is strange. It's a True. 00:17:13 In fact, it's true. 00:17:40 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:18:46 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:21:28 -!- fizzie has joined. 00:35:15 ActiveWorld! <-- different one I suspect 00:35:54 Optimist is strange. It's a True. <-- Pessimist should be False then? 00:37:50 It should be, but it isn't. 00:57:14 So, what uses Optimist? 00:57:19 Is it possible to determine? 01:09:13 Hm, let me see. 01:10:14 I don't know of any way to determine that. You could look through all of the code in the system and see if it uses Optimist. 01:10:43 Or you could replace Optimist with an object that pretends to be true but logs all its accesses. 01:11:08 tvvl: bot 01:11:08 nil 01:11:28 tvvl: Smalltalk globals remove: #Smalltalk 01:11:37 >.> 01:11:47 No worries, this bot is supposed to be abused. 01:11:50 I'm sure I had something more creative in mind 01:11:53 It's not *made* to be abused, but it's supposed to be. :P 01:11:56 tvvl: bot 01:12:13 It looks like that expression is simply an error. 01:12:22 The image is still working perfectly. 01:12:45 I suggest "Smalltalk globals at: #Smalltalk put: nil". 01:12:47 -!- tswettbot-boxed- has joined. 01:13:01 I'll see what that does. 01:13:03 tvvl: Smalltalk globals at: #Smalltalk put: nil 01:13:04 nil 01:13:12 tvvl: Smalltalk 01:13:12 -!- tswettbot-boxed has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:13:28 There. *Now* the image has crashed. 01:14:06 -!- tswettbot-boxed- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:15:00 -!- tswettbot-boxed has joined. 01:15:01 Feel free to repair the bot through IRC. :P 01:15:17 You just need to fix a certain method. 01:16:10 tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) methodSourceString 01:16:22 Oh, that's not how that works. 01:16:27 I dismiss you, tswettbot. 01:16:30 * tswett shrugs. 01:16:35 -!- tswettbot-boxed has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:16:51 -!- tswettbot-boxed- has joined. 01:17:08 tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource 01:17:09 bot: t1 heard: t2 01:17:27 Of course it sends every line of that as a separate IRC command. 01:17:51 Zbasu? 01:17:57 * Sgeo is confused 01:18:00 Yep, that's the name of the project. 01:19:58 tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource withBlanksCondensed 01:19:58 bot: t1 heard: t2 | t3 t4 | 01:20:12 Not much help. 01:22:58 tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource onlyLetters 01:22:58 bottheardtttTranscriptshowRCVDtcrtbeginsWithPINGifTruetsendMessagePONGtincludesSubStringIdismissyoutswettbotifTruetquitttvvlttfindStringttifFalsetsendMessagePRIVMSGesotericCompilerevaluatetallButFirsttsizetnotifyingnilloggedfalseasString 01:23:02 :P 01:24:59 tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource select: [:x | x ~= Character cr and: [x ~= Character lf]] 01:25:00 bot: t1 heard: t2 | t3 t4 |Transcript show: 'RCVD: ' , t2; cr.(t2 beginsWith: 'PING')ifTrue: [t1 sendMessage: 'PONG'].(t2 includesSubString: 'I dismiss you, tswettbot')ifTrue: [t1 quit].t3 := 'tvvl: '.t4 := t2 findString: t3.t4 = 0ifFalse: [t1 sendMessage: 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :' , (Compilerevaluate: (t2 allButFirst: t3 size + t4 - 1)notifying: nillogged: false) asString] 01:27:35 tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource select: [:x | ({Character cr. Character lf. Character tab} includes: x) not] 01:27:35 bot: t1 heard: t2 | t3 t4 |Transcript show: 'RCVD: ' , t2; cr.(t2 beginsWith: 'PING')ifTrue: [t1 sendMessage: 'PONG'].(t2 includesSubString: 'I dismiss you, tswettbot')ifTrue: [t1 quit].t3 := 'tvvl: '.t4 := t2 findString: t3.t4 = 0ifFalse: [t1 sendMessage: 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :' , (Compilerevaluate: (t2 allButFirst: t3 size + t4 - 1)notifying: nillogged: false) asString] 01:27:44 There, there's your source code. :P 01:28:26 Oh, interesting. All the argument names are absent. 01:29:13 All the argument names in the entire image. And there are no comments. 01:29:24 I'm guessing that's supposed to happen when the sources file can't be found. 01:37:52 -!- lament has joined. 01:43:29 eir 01:52:13 coppro: I know, i know. 01:52:17 s/i/I/ 02:03:06 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- tswettbot-boxed- has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- R-Type has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- Zwaarddijk has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- marchdown has quit (*.net *.split). 02:03:06 -!- coppro has quit 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lolwut 02:49:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:51:14 augur: i've just never noticed you leave 02:51:24 you're not paying attention then! 02:51:26 yay complexity theory has been discussed here 02:51:51 oh i thought you had done some sorta magix 02:52:37 if there are sparse NP-complete sets with respect to many-to-one reductions, then P=NP, same for sparse coNP-complete sets 02:53:22 sparse = for some polynomial p there are at most p(n) words of length n in the language 02:54:56 oklopol: even worse, if there's unary languages that are NP-complete, P=NP 02:55:16 Zwaarddijk: i'm actually just now writing the proof of that 02:55:36 cool 02:55:42 care to share it once it's done? 02:56:13 easy one: if there's a tally set (subset of 1^*) that's NP-complete, then P=NP: take an SAT instance, and one var at a time branch to both the true and the false case, now just note the set of formulas you get never gets exponential because you can prune out two formulas if they have the same image in the tally set 02:56:25 yes i was writing it for your pleasure 02:56:36 but that was kinda simplified 02:56:43 i'll be happy to get into the details ofc 02:57:56 you need an SAT encoding where setting a value to true or false doesn't increase its length 02:58:20 ahm 02:58:22 then let p be a polynomial such that the reduction from SAT to the tally set takes time at most p 02:59:05 and note that if the SAT instance has size n, then the images of all formulas you get when branching are at most size p(n) 02:59:53 and in fact there are at most p(n) formulas you need to keep track of, because for all formulas, you can remove them if they don't have an image in 1^*, and if they do have an image in 1^*, it's at most length p(n), and for each length, you store just one formula 03:00:29 that should be the key points 03:00:49 is it followable? 03:01:00 kind of a random list of facts 03:01:33 hm, yeah I get the gist of it 03:01:45 I was thinking, btw, how would a language like 03:02:19 1^(R(x,y), x and y being any integer, and R() being the Ramsey numbers 03:02:22 be classed? 03:02:45 R(x,y) is very difficult to compute, but is that even relevant to the language itself? 03:03:33 i'm sure no one knows a fast algorithm for that because R(5,5) is open 03:03:40 exactly 03:03:42 it's 43-49 iirc 03:03:47 does this mean that language is difficult 03:03:50 oklopol: ever played with agda? 03:03:53 too? 03:04:53 Zwaarddijk: even though tally sets cannot be NP-complete, they can be exponential time or even uncomputable 03:05:05 oh wait 03:05:16 we don't know ... 03:05:16 there was something about NP-hardness 03:05:29 oh well we certainly know they can be uncomputable 03:05:36 that's trivial 03:05:52 well, the NP-completeness is unknown, that was my point 03:06:07 erm okay it seems that 03:06:18 does P=NP => NP-complete tally sets, or is it just NP-complete tally sets => P=NP? 03:06:35 if P=NP, then {1} is MP-complete 03:07:25 but my ct books says tally sets cannot be even bounded truth table hard for NP 03:07:43 i guess that's essentially the same thing 03:08:05 erm 03:08:08 when I read the thing about tally sets first 03:08:15 I figured that's pretty much proof that P!=NP 03:08:46 or maybe at least the closest we have? 03:09:04 erm the reason i gave the proof is that it's a simple little thingie 03:09:25 sparse NP-complete => P=NP is much more interesting 03:09:57 yeah, I figured that much 03:10:29 and i don't understand it. i have understood the details separately, once upon a time, but i'm not sure i ever really got what the idea was 03:11:03 sparse coNP-complete => P=NP is essentially the same as that tally set proof, but i don't recall how it goes, similar pruning thing 03:11:06 augur: no 03:11:17 oklopol: you should 03:11:18 its fun 03:11:29 i'm sure it is 03:12:08 but umm, i should go to work 03:12:38 I have recently realized I should learn javascript :| 03:16:32 Muahahahaha 03:18:28 :| 03:18:36 yes, it is a terrible thing to realize 03:23:46 http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/javascript_the_evil_parts.png <-- recommended book to learn from 03:26:00 got it already! 03:26:26 (not really) 03:29:46 oklopol: you do math, right? 03:29:49 Gregor! 03:30:41 augur: I don't do math :P 03:30:46 not you 03:30:51 im just saying hi to you 03:31:01 No, you're saying "Gregor!" to me. 03:31:07 Durpadoopadlip 03:31:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 03:31:21 augur: yes 03:31:52 Gregor: yes, thats a way of saying hi 03:31:56 oklopol: well, you can do math in agda! 03:32:04 i can but umm. 03:32:04 for instance, im doing abstract algebra right now! 03:32:11 You can do math in JavaScript too X-P 03:32:16 Gregor: i mean proofs 03:32:17 what's abstract algebra, is it universal algebra? 03:32:27 augur: And I mean to trollolol :P 03:32:36 oklopol: eh. in this case its just some graph-theoretic stuff i guess? 03:32:41 i dont know 03:33:08 okay 03:33:19 must be pretty damn abstract if you don't know what it is 03:34:16 according to wp, abstract algebra is the same as universal algebra 03:34:24 augur: I didn't get libc.so *sobblecopter* 03:34:47 Gregor: sux4u 03:34:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:35:28 augur: Why even say "hi" if I can't then relate personal tragedy :P 03:35:30 i imagine doing math in agda would be similar to programming in brainfuck, sure it can be fun but you'll be proving 1+1=2. 03:36:27 Gregor: courtesy 03:36:34 oklopol: hardly! 03:37:29 currently im proving that any graph order built from Unit and disjunctive concatenation will be a linear order 03:37:42 disjunctive concatenation? 03:38:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:38:57 concatenation with disjoint union of the underlying sets 03:39:20 and how do you "concatenate" graphs 03:39:27 good question! 03:39:37 in this case, its roughly like so 03:41:38 (X, arrX) ++ (Y, arrY) = (X + Y, \(z,z') -> if z z' <- X then arrX z z' else if z <- X & z' <- Y then true else if z <- Y & z' <- X then false else if z z' <- Y then arrY z z') 03:41:58 plus the relevant isomorphism to make the new relation be of type (X + Y) x (X + Y) -> Bool 03:42:12 so connect vertices of X to those of Y 03:42:13 roughly speaking 03:42:27 right, the X's point to the Y's 03:42:29 exclusively 03:42:39 well obviously that's a total order 03:42:44 nope 03:42:48 the X's dont point to themselves 03:42:52 total orders are reflexive 03:42:58 linear orders are irreflexive 03:43:04 i mean, it COULD be total 03:43:05 or linear 03:43:25 depending on whether you state from (1, const True) or (1, const False) 03:43:34 the former is a total order, the latter is a linear order 03:43:40 well okay linear, point is that's obvious, easier than 1+1=2 03:43:58 perhaps! depends on how you define 1, 2, and + :) 03:44:00 and =! 03:44:11 but its neat cause ive got a _proof_ 03:44:12 almost 03:44:25 im still constructing the proof that (1, const False) is a linear order 03:44:30 it's NEAT, but it's not math 03:44:43 well it's math but it's kidss math 03:44:46 *kids' 03:45:22 :( 03:45:26 true 03:45:35 but you can do growed up math too! 03:45:39 im just not doing that kind of math 03:45:45 because its not relevant to my work 03:45:48 doing math is all about the basic idea, formal proof is a lot of fun, but it's not really why i'm into math 03:46:06 well whatever :| 03:46:21 i'm on a course about formal proving 03:46:24 but we use HOL 03:46:57 hopefully i'll be able to prove that same theorem in a month or so 03:47:01 i doubt i could do it now 03:48:39 okay gotta go -> 03:50:19 see ya oklopol 03:50:20 * augur bites oklopol 04:03:10 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:10:41 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:11:43 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:25:55 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:25:57 -!- augur has joined. 04:43:48 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:05:12 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to wharrrgarbl. 05:12:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:17:33 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:27:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:29:24 -!- augur has joined. 05:38:37 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:38:37 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:38:42 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:43:05 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:03:33 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:16:26 -!- aloril has joined. 06:49:04 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:50:39 -!- Lymia has joined. 06:50:39 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 06:50:39 -!- Lymia has joined. 07:25:23 -!- lament has joined. 07:29:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:52:33 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:53:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:34:43 Ah, usenet: 08:34:44 Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.theory,sci.logic,comp.lang.c,alt.religion.christianity 08:34:44 Subject: Alpha and Omega R-Language Computer Code|Robot Jesus|Sermon on the Mount| 08:35:09 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:57:33 quite esoteric - http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0924v1 09:08:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:30:16 Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.theory,sci.logic,comp.lang.c,alt.religion.christianity <-- that's a joke, right? 09:30:48 I mean, that list... 09:31:04 fizzie, or was that not a To list for one message? 09:31:30 There's no "To:" header in postings; but it was a Newsgroups: header for one (crossposted) message, yes. 09:31:59 I mean, it does have both "computer code" and "robot jesus" in the subject, why not. 09:32:57 The contents didn't really make sense, though: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/5e1c4335efdc2ecf 09:33:01 (How surprising.) 09:42:39 fizzie, looks like program code 09:42:52 fizzie, probably in R as it said in the subject 09:43:01 The syntax looks like R, yes. 09:43:09 Well, except those quotation bits. 09:43:11 I don't know R however. 09:43:31 fizzie, could be some sort of comment? I don't know 09:43:41 I'm not an R expert either, but I doubt "be comforted by the words which I give unto" is valid syntax. 09:44:02 it could be doing the intercal way. Invalid syntax = comment 09:44:12 iirc 09:44:15 R comments are from # to end-of-line. 09:44:21 ah 09:46:07 The same author posted a P=NP "proof" the other day, too. 09:46:47 ah.. 10:03:58 -!- nooga_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:20:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:20:47 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:21:07 -!- augur has joined. 10:25:01 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:25:20 -!- augur has joined. 10:33:04 -!- lmk0tter has joined. 10:33:12 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 10:34:31 -!- lmk0tter has quit (Client Quit). 10:37:40 -!- Imk0tter has quit. 10:37:59 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 10:55:10 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 10:55:15 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:46:14 -!- k0tk0t has joined. 11:46:21 -!- PatashuNuMou has joined. 11:47:10 ,[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>+>>++++++[<<[>++<-]>[<+++++>-]>-]<<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>+<<<<[>>>>>>>>>>>[-]+[<<<<<<<<<<<<<[->>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<]>>>[->>>>>>+<<<<<<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>[>[-<->>>+<]<<]<[>]>[-<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>]>[-]>>>+<[-<<<<<<<<->>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<<[[-]>>>>>>>>>->-<<<<<<<<<<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>>>>>>]<[->>+>+<<<]++++++[->>++++++++<<]>>.[-]>[-<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]<[->>>>>>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<]>>>>>>>>>>>>]>[ 11:50:28 oh hey, bf joust 11:51:02 -!- wth has joined. 11:51:04 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:53:12 -!- k0tk0t has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:53:34 -!- k0tk0t has joined. 11:55:31 -!- fungot has joined. 11:58:21 anyone familiar with brainfuck? 11:59:19 -!- k0tk0t has quit (Quit: k0tk0t). 11:59:53 -!- wth has joined. 12:02:16 -!- wth has left. 12:02:49 anyone familiar with brainfuck? <-- yes, to some degree 12:04:09 hm, I think bf is one of the few languages where output of a good optimising compiler might be easier to follow than the original source code for most programs. 12:04:46 (of course it is probably possible to obfuscate code in many languages to get that effect there too) 12:06:46 well, probably the same goes for some other easily compileable tarpits 12:08:39 -!- wth has joined. 12:11:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:14:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:24:50 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:32:10 Hah. I seemingly got signed up to one mailing list in "opt-out" fashion (quite understandable given the situation). 12:32:22 -!- sftp has joined. 12:32:38 Ilari, what mailing list heh? 12:33:27 Well, basically one mailing list was shut down and new one created to continue (apparently mailman can't rename mailing lists). 12:33:42 ah 12:33:46 well that makes sense then 12:33:50 And the admins copied the subscriber lists. 12:33:54 (well, mailmail doesn't) 12:34:33 All data wasn't copied. The password changed for instance. 12:35:09 ouch 12:36:35 -!- wth has left ("Leaving."). 12:59:16 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:00:00 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:01:23 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 13:06:45 -!- wharrrgarbl has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:07:58 -!- jcp has joined. 13:09:49 -!- PatashuNuMou has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 13:14:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:27:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:29:12 -!- wharrrgarbl has joined. 13:44:42 -!- augur has joined. 14:14:27 -!- cheater00 has joined. 14:15:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:28:54 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:35:23 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:35:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:36:25 R-Type! You survived the night! 14:36:25 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 14:36:45 I credit your good attitude. 14:39:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:43:18 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 14:54:48 cpressey, hm, why did you make the bot act like that? Is it a reference I'm missing or something? 15:01:55 Vorpal: Well: I wanted to write a bot in R, just because R is a horrible language to do such a thing in. I named it 'R-Type' because 'rbot' was taken, 'R-bot' is boring, and R-Type was a significant game in the history of video games (not a huge favorite of mine, but I can appreciate it.) Since the point was just to write a bot in R, I didn't care what it actually did. So I modelled its personality after a cat I met o 15:01:55 * R-Type groans 15:02:33 cpressey, I think that got cut off 15:02:39 "So I modelled its personality after a cat I met o" 15:02:49 So I modelled its personality after a cat I met once. 15:02:53 ah 15:03:03 I guess a rather annoying cat... 15:04:08 It was a stray that was rescued. It was also a longhair. 15:04:46 Longhair + living on the streets = permanent knots in fur = quite painful, I imagine = not the happiest individual. 15:04:47 -!- pumpkin has joined. 15:06:06 Oh, I should post its source code somewhere so you can bask in the glory 15:06:39 -!- wharrrgarbl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:07:36 ah 15:08:00 cpressey, I don't know R though 15:08:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:09:47 Vorpal: you don't have to know it to appreciate how BEAUTIFUL it is. 15:10:02 See the beauty! http://pastie.org/1768075 15:10:43 The command line to run it, alone, is worth it. 15:10:46 hm 15:11:00 "irc.irc.irc" is the greatest hostname ever. 15:11:28 cpressey, if you want to avoid the erlang shell you can get pretty silly command lines there too 15:12:23 "Every time I hear that XKCD isn't funny anymore I get slightly pissed off. It's always been hit and miss but the hits so outweigh the misses that it's my favourite on line comic (with the possible exception of Doonesbury)." ← a decent precis of why I left RationalWiki. 15:13:05 "I am continually impressed/annoyed that we spent zillions of edits and hundreds of words making a point in favour of rationalism, then XKCD kicks our arses saying the same thing in four panels with a couple of matchstick men." 15:13:11 That's better, actually. 15:14:21 Phantom_Hoover, hm I'd say xkcd is sometimes good, though rather rarely nowdays. And even back in the "good old days" it wasn't always good. 15:14:40 Very rarely nowadays. 15:14:52 And the misses are cringeworthy. 15:14:55 What's xkcd? 15:15:06 Oh, I apologize for that. 15:15:15 cpressey, a Thing Man Was Not Meant To Know. 15:15:47 the master xkcd will rise from the sunken city of frwgll 15:15:51 I know as much about xkcd as I want to -- more, actually. I should not tempt fate. Or #esoteric. 15:15:55 (That's Welsh.) 15:16:50 cpressey, I'm not sure if you meant you didn't know what xkcd was above or not. It is however a webcomic. 15:17:11 http://www.xkcd.com/879/ <<< i like this one 15:17:49 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to wharrrgarbl. 15:18:05 http://www.xkcd.com/881/ <<< and could someone explain this to me 15:18:12 Vorpal: Depending on who you ask, it is THE webcomic. 15:18:18 is the joke that they have a weird way of hugging 15:18:49 cpressey, it was THE webcomic before ~400 or so. 15:20:20 but i suppose it's still the simpsons of webcomics 15:21:04 Once again oklothink triumphs. 15:21:28 err... sure? now can you explain 881 to me 15:21:35 is it about his illness? 15:22:32 It's about LOOK AT ME I CAN WRITE CRINGEWORTHILY AWFUL "EMOTIONAL" COMICS WITH SCIENCE SHOEHORNED IN I AM NERD HUMOUR 15:22:55 I am fascinatingly tempted to actually look at it. 15:23:12 Also *anyone* who thinks probability is worth doing for practical applications should be shot. 15:23:28 are you sure there isn't some sort of punchline? 15:23:43 what are the numbers in the table 15:23:51 The impression I get is that the actual *mathematics* requires some kind of degree. 15:23:56 *to understand 15:24:10 like, that many survive 5/10 years of X 15:25:03 and i wonder if the way they hug is relevant 15:25:26 You're overanalysing it. 15:25:57 i think i just don't get it 15:26:05 Perhaps if I prepare myself mentally and emotionally beforehand sufficiently, I can look at it. 15:26:19 cpressey: i would appreciate that 15:26:36 I mean, I have seen xkcd's involuntarily on peoples' shirts and hanging in their cubes, and it didn't damage me *too* much. 15:26:40 fun little problem: find a 5-regular planar graph, where 5-regular = every vertex has degree 5 15:26:43 oklopol, I think you're assuming there's an actual joke somewhere under the mawkish sentimentalism, and are combing through it. 15:26:50 *for anything funny. 15:26:54 OK, here goes. 15:26:56 well yes 15:27:42 um 15:27:53 cpressey, you shouldn't have done it. 15:28:00 Phantom_Hoover: You are correct in that. 15:28:23 Well, unless you have the love for your fellow humans of Charlie Brooker. 15:28:56 I don't know who that is and the extra information is not helping me recover. 15:29:16 Charlie Brooker is an infamously misanthropic reviewer of things. 15:29:21 i suppose this is the right time to tell cpressey that santa isn't real 15:29:28 OK, well: oklopol, if you want my opinion: it wasn't intended to be funny. 15:29:47 It was intended to be Hallmark-y. 15:30:02 For lack of a better adjective. 15:30:15 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:30:54 "mawkish sentamentalism", I suppose that's a good way to put it too 15:31:06 but 15:33:05 oklopol: this was all a PLOT by you, to get me to read an xkcd, WASN'T IT 15:33:29 cleverly FEIGNING non-understanding of the fail 15:33:51 hm, or can you actually call that fail? because i'm sure it was totally what was intended 15:34:13 i wouldn't know, I DON'T GET IT 15:34:19 oklopol: THERE IS NOTHING TO GET 15:34:24 MUST BE 15:34:58 oklopol: Are you familiar with a pre-web comic strip called Fred Bassett? 15:35:31 Sometimes, there is nothing to get. 15:35:33 no, except if it's pre-web i might know it in finnish 15:36:19 oklopol: "Koiraskoira" 15:36:24 (the internet is amazing sometimes) 15:36:42 or "Retu, Pitko" 15:36:53 (thanks wp) 15:37:16 oh yeah i've seen those comics 15:37:21 in finnish prolly 15:37:40 "Some strips are merely a surreal or whimsical description of a moment of life as seen from a dog's point of view. As very British cartoon strips, they break the normal strip rules by sometimes not having a traditional ending, a punchline or even a distinct purpose, distinguishing them from the more direct, American-style Garfield or Peanuts strips." 15:38:15 imo, this is the xkcd version 15:39:47 maybe i'll try to solve it tomorrow 15:39:51 too tired now 15:40:02 koiraskoira sounds really silly 15:40:13 retu i may have heard 15:40:22 I mean, I always thought it must be hard being a comic strip writer, you have to come up with a new funny thing for every day. But! Not if you aren't actually funny every day. 15:40:24 koiraskoira = male dog 15:41:05 well you can always just make a play on words 15:41:27 never funny, but good enough for a newspaper comic strip. 15:42:14 I have this particular strip hanging in my cube: http://www.glyphjockey.com/uploaded_images/Uncanny_Old_Gags_1-772109.jpg 15:42:34 It's revenge against those who see fit to hang xkcds where others can see them. 15:43:15 i.... don't get that one either 15:43:23 have i become even stupider 15:43:44 i like it tho 15:44:35 oklopol does not know the hubris of man. 15:45:51 is the points that bad things can happen even though no actual failing is involved, proper walking can cause footprints in the wrong place, and a nice throw can destroy a painting 15:45:57 *point 15:46:17 i mean 15:46:19 something related to that 15:46:41 oh the first guy is in the picture 15:46:49 I believe the point was "I can take panels from seperate Nancy strips and put them together into something that can be read, but does not make sense as we understand it" 15:46:54 oklopol, have you considered that sometimes there is, in fact, no elaborately hidden punchline, and that the reason you cannot find one is not that you lack a sense of humour? 15:47:07 This would perhaps be justified were you Vorpal, but you are not. 15:47:25 i think i'm seeing it 15:47:34 nice puzzle 15:47:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:47:40 hmmhmm 15:47:42 The objective of dada is to freeze the brain until the dressmakers' assistants arrive. 15:48:49 cpressey, you should say to everyone "really, you don't get it? It's obvious!" 15:49:03 yeah no my approach didn't work 15:49:10 Phantom_Hoover, not every comic strip has a punchline. 15:49:23 depends a bit on which webcomic though 15:49:26 Phantom_Hoover: In my younger days... 15:50:01 has the author said there's no solution? 15:50:10 oklopol 15:50:17 cpressey 15:50:41 oklopol's use of the words "solve" and "solution" in regard to comic strips disturbs me somewhat. 15:50:51 And Vorpal performs quite possibly the most amazing feat of oblivious demonstration the world has ever seen! 15:51:49 cpressey: if you directly see why a comic is funny, you didn't learn anything. 15:51:56 Phantom_Hoover, of course, there are cases where either the author of the webcomic or the reader of it have different types of humour. That would give a similar end result. 15:52:27 I don't think Vorpal even reads what other people say beyond the most cursory examination. 15:52:46 Phantom_Hoover, I read the previous three lines + the highlight one 15:52:49 oklopol: that is true, although I am not always seeking to learn new things when I read a comic strip. 15:52:53 It's just tangential to the brilliance of his ego. 15:52:57 (the previous ones to the highlight that is) 15:53:09 This is particularly apparent whenever any form of subtlety is applied. 15:53:23 Phantom_Hoover, but come on... comics like freefall doesn't use a punch line in *every* strip. 15:53:26 Vorpal, are you aware that we don't know what lines your IRC client highlights? 15:53:30 cpressey: well to be honest the only reason i read comics is to take a break from thinking. 15:53:40 cpressey, " This would perhaps be justified were you Vorpal, but you are not." had my nick in it 15:53:48 pretty obvious it would highlight me 15:53:55 Sarcasm being one thing he is utterly unable to detect or penetrate. 15:55:24 Vorpal: how's uni 15:55:41 Anyway, xkcd pegged why R is the language of the future. It tells you that you're going to DIE 15:55:46 which year is this again? i have some trouble with time 15:56:09 cpressey: in 881? 15:56:24 oklopol: the sappy one with the statistics and the hugging, yes 15:56:39 well that's what i initially assumed, but the details don't quite seem to fit 15:56:45 mainly 15:56:50 Ooh, Edinburgh apparently has in international science festival. 15:56:52 oklopol, working out well. Not there today, the lab was cancelled. Lab was cancelled after the electricity system failed in that room. They were going to replace it today. 15:57:00 ohh 15:57:13 Yay, I'm in Venice for half of it. 15:57:14 real life applications just told the reader it's about his disease 15:57:23 okay thanks 15:57:34 oklopol, and how is it for you? 15:57:52 oh, oklopol didn't get the sappy part? ok, that was a misunderstanding on my part 15:57:53 Vorpal: trying to get my first publication this week 15:57:57 otherwise not much 15:58:00 *: trying 15:58:13 erm, i mean write my first article which i will then try to get published 15:58:16 oklopol, ah. Good luck! 15:58:31 yes, the stick figure hates statistics because statistics are telling him that his friend/lover/co-stick-figure is gonna DIE 15:59:15 hm, everyone will die sooner or later 15:59:20 yeah i get it now, i just didn't get what he meant by statistics having real life applications, but the applications were that they could predict shit and now that he's dying bleh 15:59:39 Vorpal: what lab? 16:00:50 There appears to be something about how the Vatican ascertains whether a miracle has occurred. 16:00:58 I want to go to that purely for the absurdity. 16:00:59 oklopol, oh, it was a lab in a course about real time systems. Sadly this is "modern" compsci. Meaning it is more like computer programming/computer engineering often... 16:01:17 a chick bleeding out her vag ain't no miracle 16:01:56 My Idiot Chemistry Teacher outdid herself today. 16:02:05 i took this "theoretical" course on real-time systems and i can guarantee you that sucked more than yours ever could 16:02:24 First she complained about the idea of firing nuclear waste into space because it would become our nuclear dumping ground. 16:02:40 Y'know, because it's so easy to spoil the pristine landscape of space. 16:02:49 :D 16:03:10 isn't the sun already slightly radioactive 16:03:16 oklopol, well, we were going to program targeting vxworks. However, for some reasons booting more than a handful of the computers in that room made the fuse blow yesterday. 16:03:17 a wee bit 16:03:32 Then, when someone mentioned that the universe was expanding, she said "if the universe is expanding what is it expanding into YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT"" 16:03:32 but i suppose it's nothing compared to whatever our nuclear plants produce 16:03:59 So I was like "actually I can—" "NO YOU CAN'T YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING" 16:04:10 Phantom_Hoover: I think I'm in love 16:05:00 Then I gave up because I previously had a long and bitter dispute with her over whether liquids could have pressure and you can't waste effort on stupidity of that magnitude. 16:05:09 Phantom_Hoover, dumping nuclear waste in space would be rather expensive. Unless we build a space elevator (which would ALSO be expensive, though less so in the long run)... 16:05:43 whether... liquids can have... pressure... with a chemistry teacher 16:06:07 i mean, the other things, i can say, well, space, that's just not her domain 16:06:08 Vorpal, well, the big problem with space dumping is that if the rocket explodes (not exactly a rare occurrence) you irradiate half of Europe rather than just the area around your train. 16:06:41 cpressey, in fairness, she confused pressure with compressibilit— wait, I'm not giving her any quarter, that's just as bad. 16:06:45 well you can just slingshot the stuff into space 16:06:47 need no rocket 16:06:54 Phantom_Hoover, that too. But even if that was solved, doing it by rockets would be far too expensive. 16:07:15 didn't the buld a rocket with a 20000 budget somewhere 16:07:17 *build 16:07:34 oklopol, 20000 of what? 16:07:38 money units 16:07:40 EUR? USD? 16:07:44 what does it matter 16:07:46 some kind of solar-powered magnetic rail 16:08:12 oklopol, hah 16:08:20 hah? 16:08:21 *railgun 16:08:27 HAH 16:08:37 Vorpal, they're all, like, within 1.5 times each other. 16:08:42 Except yen. 16:08:42 oklopol, I was referring to that 20000 SEK is a lot less than 20000 USD for example. :P 16:08:52 well right, but it's SMALLER 16:09:00 Phantom_Hoover, I believe 1 USD is about 8 SEK or such 16:09:01 but i suppose you got that already 16:09:04 Dammit where's pikhq I came up with the best Japanese joke. 16:09:05 haven't checked in a while 16:09:14 i mean 20000 is ASTRONOMICALLY LESS than what rockets usually cost 16:09:22 oklopol, indeed 16:09:25 who cares how many astronomers smaller it is 16:09:46 oklopol, any idea about how much payload it could lift? And to what orbit? 16:10:07 oh i don't know, and i'm not even sure this story is true 16:10:11 my point is mainly 16:10:30 that i doubt there's an intrinsic reason for rockets to cost a lot 16:10:50 rockets that just need to escape gravity 16:10:55 well, as I see it, it's the fuel that's expensive. thus: some kind of solar-powered magnetic railgun 16:11:08 It would probably have to be a few kilometers long, though 16:11:08 one issue with rockets is that they need to haul the fuel they need to power themselves. 16:11:18 which makes them heavier, needing more fuel 16:11:30 How long is the Forth Bridge again? 16:11:31 as for fuel, they're starting those daily flights to what was it 120km, and they use less fuel than a flight by jet from new york to X 16:11:40 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:11:44 again, completely unconfirmed random data 16:11:54 cpressey, I AM TOTALLY QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT 16:11:54 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:12:09 OH WAIT VORPAL IS HERE NO I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SCOTLAND I AM WELSH 16:12:34 FROM NEWPORT 16:12:39 SHEEP SHEEP SHEEP 16:12:41 Phantom_Hoover, hrrm, I think I need to check logs on where you come from :P 16:12:57 I AM TOTALLY NOT FROM THE CITY RIGHT NEXT TO THE FORTH BRIDGES 16:13:35 DUNFERMLINE 16:13:39 that explains why I had no memory of you being from Wales when you claimed that recently. So indeed, you fooled me a for a while there. 16:13:48 :D 16:13:53 Vorpal funny 16:14:04 cpressey, 2.5km, BtW. 16:14:12 -!- cheater00 has joined. 16:14:19 (For the rail bridge; the road bridge is longer IIRC.) 16:14:39 Phantom_Hoover: ty 16:15:04 Why? 16:15:50 I haven't worked it out -- such a railgun might have to be really, really long. Longer than the Forth bridge, was I guess what I was thinking, and how much does the Forth bridge cost to maintain annually? (rhetorical) 16:16:12 And it could only launch relatively light things 16:16:24 And I don't know that it could get them further than orbit 16:16:25 "A billboard which featured a depressed goth and the slogan 'Cheer up Goth. Have an Irn Bru.' was also criticised for inciting bullying." — the ASA is basically the funniest thing ever. 16:16:27 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:16:35 But once in orbit, they could use rockets very very effectively 16:16:41 (It's the UK body to which easily-offended people complain.) 16:16:57 cpressey, also you'd never finish painting it.* 16:16:58 cpressey, I'm not sure you would get the same maintenance cost for a railgun and a bridge though. 16:17:07 Phantom_Hoover: yeah yeah har har har 16:17:09 *they actually finished painting it a few years back 16:17:41 Vorpal: no, but, same order of magnitude, i was guessing 16:17:54 hm, I'm not qualified to answer that 16:18:00 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:18:12 actually, you have to make damn sure the rail is nice and ... rail-y, you really wouldn't want your nuclear waste derailing at the end 16:18:46 although, better the Gobi desert (or whereever) than all of Europe, as I think PH mentioned 16:18:55 quite. Hm how would it work? Would it be straight or would it curve upward at the end? 16:19:04 I'm not sure :) 16:19:19 If it was straight, it would have to be REALLY long 16:19:43 cpressey, if it had to go at an angle upwards I suspect it would need rather more complex supports (unless you found a suitable mountain side to use), which would probably drive up the price. 16:19:47 If it curves upward... that seems like it would be harder to do 16:19:51 yeah. 16:20:19 And computing the speed necessary for the mass and the angle, to get it into orbit, and not have it fall back... well, we have computers. 16:20:40 yeah I don't think that is the largest issue 16:21:08 and once it's outside the atmosphere, that's when you start the rockets. they don't need much fuel because you're outside of the drag and much of the gravity. 16:21:19 of course 16:21:43 yeah, so let's build this sucker 16:21:48 when I said rockets were expensive, I meant from the surface of the earth. 16:21:50 >_< 16:22:32 I think the name 'Irn Bru' is inherently bullying. 16:23:06 cpressey, hm does it need to get into an east/west-wards orbit or could you launch it straight south? In the latter case you could build it pointing along the Atlantic. Very few inhabited islands there. Very few islands even. 16:23:31 would be good in case of accidents. 16:23:54 less risk of damage in case it doesn't reach orbit 16:24:23 I don't know. I don't see why not 16:26:08 I seem to remember there is some complication with getting into polar orbits. Hm... 16:27:55 Possibly, but the wp article doesn't suggest anything really difficult 16:28:33 ISTR polar orbits are much higher than low-earth. 16:28:48 Also you have to correct for the earth's rotation as well. 16:29:52 Actually I think the second point is the main one, particularly as rockets tend to be launched from fairly low latitudes. 16:30:29 well, if the destination is orbit, the railgun approach gives you very limited options, no matter which way it's pointing 16:30:59 UNLESS you put it on a GIANT TURNTABLE 16:31:08 ALTERNATELY: WHEELS 16:33:42 I like the wheels idea. Especially putting a block behind every wheel so the thing doesn't move (much) when you fire it. Like on artillery. 16:34:04 Forget those, and WHEEE 16:34:16 HMM 16:34:26 What orbit is the stuff being fired into again? 16:34:57 Uh, whatever's most conventient, if the ultimate purpose is to get spent nuclear fuel into the sun or whatever 16:35:03 *convenient 16:35:24 Low-earth seems the most obvious option, then. 16:35:35 Phantom_Hoover, not sure. I was thinking polar one because if you place it in, say, UK, then you can fire pretty much across the Atlantic. Which is very sparsely inhabited. Which is a bonus in case of accidents 16:36:06 Do it in Ecuador and fire over the Pacific.* 16:36:09 well, actually I guess along the Antarctic 16:36:10 *worst idea 16:36:44 what's the fuel consumption difference between to orbit vs shot into space? 16:36:44 Phantom_Hoover, isn't that the wrong direction too? With regards to Earth's spin... 16:37:03 or is it relative depending on what shooting means 16:37:29 i would've thought once you get to orbit, it's relatively easy to get out completely, but actually i suppose the orbits are rather closed compared to earth's radius 16:38:00 a really elliptical orbit might be good then -- you could get out of it at the far point 16:38:00 not sure 16:38:22 oh we were still talking about completely escaping 16:38:31 cpressey, once you get far enough I suggest ITN for low energy transfer towards the sun. 16:38:33 oklopol, yeah, escape vs. orbit is pretty big. 16:38:40 i don't see why just leaving that shit on the orbit would be all that dangerous 16:39:05 Low orbits decay quite quickly. 16:39:05 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network) 16:39:38 Phantom_Hoover, so would it be better to go to orbit and then break away rather than break away directly? 16:39:50 Phantom_Hoover: so does your mom but i still keep doing her 16:40:06 no wait 16:40:08 Yes, because thrusting from orbit doesn't have the complications that it does on a planet. 16:40:09 that was a bad argument 16:40:13 here's a better one 16:40:21 i'll be dead by the time they come down so what do i care 16:40:24 Phantom_Hoover, right. 16:40:24 (I know what oko is going to say, so he needn't bother.) 16:41:09 Phantom_Hoover: erm what, thrusting your mom from orbit doesn't have the complications the it does on a planet? 16:41:26 More or less. 16:41:49 maybe in orbit, now it doesn't quite look like the correct kind of thrusting 16:42:40 the point of the mom joke was just to attract attention to the classical philosophical problem of i don't give a shit what happens after i die 16:43:04 now that it's obscure not-really-a-joke explanation day 16:44:54 but having sex weightless is one of the fundamental experiences in life 17:08:23 that's what she said 17:10:20 R-Type: goodbye 17:10:20 * R-Type scowls at cpressey 17:10:25 -!- R-Type has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:10:32 What does R-Type do? 17:11:08 Vorpal: Well: I wanted to write a bot in R, just because R is a horrible language to do such a thing in. I named it 'R-Type' because 'rbot' was taken, 'R-bot' is boring, and R-Type was a significant game in the history of video games (not a huge favorite of mine, but I can appreciate it.) Since the point was just to write a bot in R, I didn't care what it actually did. So... 17:11:15 So I modelled its personality after a cat I met once. 17:11:46 R-Type is a computer robot 17:12:00 oklopol, what is R-Type 17:12:11 R-Type is a computer robot 17:12:19 -!- cheater- has joined. 17:12:51 cpressey, have you played Elite 17:14:54 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:15:46 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think so. That's the 3D wireframe one for the 8-bits, isn't it? 17:15:50 Yep. 17:17:42 APNIC down 0.03: 64k+/32 to Australia, 64k to China, 256 to Hong Kong, 1024+256 to Indonesia, 1k+256+/32 to India, 64k+8k+1k to Japan, 2k to South Korea, 1k to Nepal, 256 to Philipphines, 256+/32 to Singapore, 4k to Thailand, 256k+64k+8k to Taiwan. 17:19:07 Depletion estimate: Thursday 14th April. 17:29:41 -!- cheater00 has joined. 17:30:39 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:34:06 -!- iamcal has joined. 17:41:44 Ilari, any idea how accurate that estimate is? 17:43:09 No idea. These processes are highly discrete and distributions behave badly. Fourth quadrant stuff for sure. 17:45:36 Basically, the APNIC pool is so depleted that one huge allocation could take most of it and then the rest of the allocations on that day would finish it off. 17:46:19 Logspace: /8.971 17:47:50 It could be tomorrow, we might make next week without depletion, nobody outside APNIC really knows. 18:09:26 -!- ben_ has joined. 18:11:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:22:09 -!- ben_ has left ("Ex-Chat"). 18:23:56 Longhair + living on the streets = permanent knots in fur = quite painful, I imagine = not the happiest individual. 18:24:16 um can't they cut it off... 18:27:56 like, that many survive 5/10 years of X 18:28:03 that was my guess when i read it... 18:28:17 oerjan, you read xkccd? 18:28:20 *xkcd 18:28:35 randall munroe _has_ some disease in the family 18:28:36 yes 18:29:29 oerjan: i believe they were trying to do that, at the time (this was years ago), but something about the knots being close to the skin made it difficult to shave 18:29:40 ouch 18:29:43 Longhair cat? 18:29:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:29:56 Phantom_Hoover: yes 18:30:14 What cat? 18:30:26 The cat whose personality R-Type's is modelled after. 18:30:29 R-Type cat? 18:30:45 vietnamese rolling furball 18:33:12 I mean, I have seen xkcd's involuntarily on peoples' shirts and hanging in their cubes, and it didn't damage me *too* much. 18:33:24 those _would_ tend to be the less damaging ones, one would think 18:33:59 except maybe someone probably has one of the worst ones just for the hell of it... 18:34:12 s/maybe // 18:34:27 he would have to constantly explain it 18:34:34 heh 18:34:58 well i mean like that infamous genitals one... 18:35:11 i don't think a comic can be stupid enough that... erm which one is that? 18:36:09 Low 600s. 18:36:10 http://xkcd.com/631/ 18:36:27 Don't think too hard about the joke in that one either. 18:37:31 interesting. 18:38:08 * oklopol tries not to think about it 18:38:42 -!- elliott has joined. 18:38:49 elliott 18:38:54 oklopol 18:39:08 fun little problem: find a 5-regular planar graph, where 5-regular = every vertex has degree 5 18:39:16 some platonic solid 18:39:48 icosahedron probably 18:39:50 06:58:51: (I am pretty sure Eliezer Yudkowsky once said "a".) 18:39:51 06:59:27: it would be rather impressive if somehow he has carefully avoided a particular common word for years without being detected. 18:39:51 i'm suspicious now 18:40:02 maybe "Eliezer Yudkowsky" is an anagram... 18:40:19 oerjan: that was mister x's solution, he said he tried x-hedron and it didn't work so he tried z-hedron and it did 18:40:57 but you don't know what an icosahedron is (i sure as hell don't) to be able to come up with that 18:41:00 if you think about a 3d ball 18:41:09 erm 18:41:10 i mean 18:41:15 to come up with *a* solution 18:41:29 you mean there's anything simpler than an icosahedron? 18:41:33 14:57:31: elliott: but really, is PerlNomic better than another nomic we could come up with? 18:41:37 how many is icosahedron? 18:41:41 tswett: define better 18:41:41 vertices 18:41:44 20 faces 18:41:54 tswett: Is skiing better than Chess? 18:41:59 i have two constructions that give 12 + 4k vertices 18:42:00 for any k 18:42:01 12 vertices (it's dual to dodecahedron) 18:42:23 then your k=0 may be that 18:42:37 one of them gives some hedron as the 12 case, i don't know about the other one 18:42:44 oklopol: even real k? 18:42:52 cpressey: interestingly enough, no! 18:42:57 EVEN QUATERNIONIC 18:43:06 just complex - real works 18:43:36 EVEN TUPLE-VALUED k 18:43:39 where - is set theoretic subtraction since you're smartasses 18:45:15 tuples of small categories, that is 18:45:39 oerjan: take two vertices, one to the left, one to the right of the ball, and for any k put 5(k + 2) C_5's around the ball somewhere between the two side vertices, then connect the side vertices to the points of the C_5 next to them, and for adjacent C_5's, connect each point to two points of the next C_5 18:45:53 kind of hard to explain but maybe you'll get it 18:46:04 vey easy when drawn 18:46:13 *very 18:46:17 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:46:34 that's equivalent to an icosahedron when k = 0 18:47:28 er what's C_5 again 18:47:32 cycle of 5 18:47:35 oh right 18:47:39 so a pentagon 18:48:06 sure 18:48:34 in this case i'm putting them on a sphere so pentagon is not really a good term 18:48:49 because the gon is gone. 18:50:08 fun little problem: find a 5-regular planar graph, where 5-regular = every vertex has degree 5 <--- wait what? 18:50:25 hey so last night or last week or whatever i proved that tally sets can't be NP-complete, didn't i do some stuff on left sets here at some point? 18:50:27 do the edges have to be straight or something? 18:50:32 maybe if i don't remember, no one will 18:50:33 ...but the faces of a dodecahedron are pentagons 18:50:57 -!- elliott has joined. 18:51:08 oerjan: if you put a C_5 around a sphere, there are no angles 18:51:20 because if not, just have two vertices, and 5 edges between them. done. planar as all hell 18:51:35 oklopol: OR ARE THERE INFINITE ANGELS 18:51:47 cpressey: using the usual definition of graph here 18:51:51 just one edge and no self-loops 18:52:18 oklopol: "just one edge"? 18:52:22 oerjan: or did you mean there can't be an isomorphism between the result of the construction and an somethinghedron? 18:52:27 cpressey: between each pair 18:52:32 oh oh oh 18:52:33 ok 18:52:44 no multigraphs or whatever they call that 18:52:51 they often call them multigraphs 18:53:03 oklopol: i'm just pointing out pentagons can be used for this, in a sense... 18:53:07 but definitions differ a lot in gt 18:53:23 although that's mixing faces and vertices with the duality 18:53:57 you can use all kinds of things if you're smart enough 18:54:29 I USE A PROJECTED PENROSE TILING FROM HYPERSPACE 18:56:02 a more fun problem: show that a 4-critical graph is either a wheel of even order or it contains no wheels as a subgraph 18:56:12 no theorems needed, but a lot of definitions 18:56:53 4-critical = exists proper 4-coloring of vertices, and no 3-coloring, but in any proper subgraph there exists a 3-coloring 18:57:06 yeah no 18:57:30 wheel of order n = C_{n-1} + a node connected to each of its points 18:57:36 well that's it i guess 18:58:16 i'd rather do the what you call "kids math" 18:58:22 the solution presented in our homework session was wrong, followed by the official solution by the professor, which was also wrong :D 18:58:27 (although only slightly wrong) 18:58:36 not in agda though 19:03:33 isn't the sun already slightly radioactive 19:04:21 if by radioactive you mean "occasionally sends out enough charged particles to kill an unprotected human" 19:04:48 like, on earth? 19:05:03 no, earth is protected by its magnetic field and atmosphere 19:05:31 well i don't know any of that fancy magnet stuff but i like the idea of being protected. 19:06:08 in fact the atmosphere is supposedly itself protected by the magnetic field, without it the radiation would slowly whittle the atmosphere away 19:06:14 I almost did it with 8 vertices, but I have one edge that goes between two vertices that already have an edge. 19:06:31 oh wait, just double this 19:06:32 which may have happened on mars 19:06:51 cpressey: double? 19:06:52 22:02:54: strsplit(gsub('^:(.*?)\\!(.*?)\\s+PRIVMSG\\s+(.*?)\\s+\\:(.*?)$', '\\1\u2603\\2\u2603\\3\u2603\\4', line, perl=TRUE), '\u2603', fixed=TRUE) 19:06:53 uh. 19:07:07 so, um, 16 vertices, which is in fact 12 + 4k when k=1! cool 19:07:21 can you describe it somehow? 19:07:40 oklopol: make a copy of it, then hook up the two copies with two edges where I had the extra edge in the one 19:07:51 22:28:22: (I've modelled its personality after a cat I met once) 19:07:51 did its eye pop out and did you eat it and absorb its esoteric powers 19:07:52 y/n? 19:08:00 q 19:08:14 ^Z 19:08:21 ? 19:08:22 ? 19:08:33 cpressey: i don't think you can do that planarly but maybe i'm mistaken 19:09:02 oklopol: it's possible i miscounted the # of edges here. maybe i'll try to draw it more neatly 19:09:14 actually it's possible planarly, if i know what you mean 19:09:15 23:08:42: but really. R, J, K are all array processing languages. And have one letter names. There might be a pattern there. Should be investigated further. 19:09:20 i don't think Vorpal quite knows what R is 19:09:30 aRray language 19:09:45 23:11:12: K is rather insane. Maybe... naw. 19:09:49 cpressey: it's probably been done :> 19:10:12 23:58:26: It annoys me that there are global constants (variables?) that aren't classes. 19:10:12 23:58:32: Transcript and Smalltalk, for example. Maybe others. 19:10:14 aren't they classes? 19:10:18 elliott: I couldn't find an implementation of K anyway. In the 4 whole seconds I spent looking 19:10:37 cpressey: Pay up, or get K3 (the cool one with the GUI thing) from a hidden subdirectory of nsl.com :) 19:10:40 as they say, 5th second is the charm 19:10:51 that explains why I had no memory of you being from Wales when you claimed that recently. So indeed, you fooled me a for a while there. 19:11:02 bah, no one outside britain knows the difference anyhow 19:12:15 just strangely unpronouncible places with bagpipes and leprechauns and whiskhey 19:12:53 and green. lots of green. 19:14:00 03:31:56: oklopol: well, you can do math in agda! 19:14:11 this is to embarrassing to read 19:14:17 oklopol: i swear us dependent type guys aren't that bad 19:14:22 *so 19:14:35 whoops. oklopol: i actually have 2 multiedges. dammit 19:14:49 cpressey: took me 45 minutes to come up with a solution 19:15:02 03:35:30: i imagine doing math in agda would be similar to programming in brainfuck, sure it can be fun but you'll be proving 1+1=2. 19:15:17 oklopol: does gödel's incompleteness theorem count as 1+1=2? :D 19:15:19 well, that was actually coq. 19:15:25 well maybe not quite that long but longer than oerjan's 5 seconds 19:15:32 elliott: you proved that? 19:15:50 oklopol: no, russell o'connor did: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html 19:16:08 and was he an amateur at coq? 19:16:13 well ... no :D 19:16:15 gdel's theorem isn't all that deep 19:16:23 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:16:26 "Because my proof is constructive, it is possible, in principle, to compute this sentence that makes PA incomplete." ;; this is the coolest part :) 19:16:42 > let true & false = true in true & false 19:16:42 (It's the UK body to which easily-offended people complain.) 19:16:43 Not in scope: `true'Not in scope: `false' 19:16:48 PA? 19:16:53 oklopol: penis arithmetic 19:16:57 what we need is mandatory sterilization of easily offended people. 19:16:58 erm right 19:17:30 we computed many sentences that make PA incomplete in automata theory 19:17:37 -!- wareya has joined. 19:17:45 08:57:33: quite esoteric - http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0924v1 19:17:50 mtve: you still exist?? 19:17:57 that's what i was thinking! 19:18:05 it's not rocket science, and in any case i'm talking about what an amateur can do 19:18:06 oklopol: well this is the gödel one :P 19:18:20 oklopol: printing it before we all die is impossible though. and that is because it is a poison. 19:18:21 science facts 19:18:49 i believe that 19:20:28 > let True & False = True in True & False 19:20:29 True 19:20:43 Ah, Haskell. 19:20:46 12:32:10: Hah. I seemingly got signed up to one mailing list in "opt-out" fashion (quite understandable given the situation). 19:20:47 12:33:27: Well, basically one mailing list was shut down and new one created to continue (apparently mailman can't rename mailing lists). 19:20:53 Ilari: this wouldn't happen to be the ffmpeg/libav fiasco? 19:21:12 it wasn't a fiasco, it was an imbroglio 19:21:30 elliott: Nope. 19:22:12 I haven't worked it out -- such a railgun might have to be really, really long. [...] <-- i have this hunch part of the problem is you don't want the speed to get too high until you've passed most of the atmosphere... 19:22:13 Ilari: with /that/, the people who had, two months prior, attempted to perform a ridiculous coup d'etat on the project forked off and made a new mailing list, then subscribed every member of the ffmpeg mailing list to their new one, claiming it was just a "project rename" 19:22:28 Ilari: (they then used their technical control of the ffmpeg lists to shut them down, telling everyone to move to the "newly-renamed" libav lists) 19:22:38 impressively childish 19:22:56 Why did they do that, BtW? 19:24:06 Phantom_Hoover: because they didn't like how the maintainer was handling proposed patches 19:24:40 How was that? 19:24:43 a perfectly valid complaint, but trying to take over the project without telling anyone through technical means without trying to discuss it or even fork is enough to make me not give a damn what they're complaining about 19:24:58 Phantom_Hoover: I think he was rejecting patches based on what they saw as trivial grounds or something 19:27:48 I have a code review that is three pages long (ReviewBoard pages -- I'm not sure how it decides how long a page is) that is boring me out of my skull 19:28:21 You know, when you almost entirely rewrite something, diffs are almost entirely useless 19:30:43 * elliott watches cpressey slowly give up on life 19:31:23 pretty much 19:36:42 I am becoming more and more convinced that programming (heavily, exclusively) in Python changes the way you think for the worse. 19:38:57 cpressey: only suicide can cure you 19:38:59 DISCLAIMER: 19:39:04 Do not attempt suicide because of this line. 19:39:11 (Attempt it because of the line three lines up instead!) 19:39:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:39:39 16:16:25: "A billboard which featured a depressed goth and the slogan 'Cheer up Goth. Have an Irn Bru.' was also criticised for inciting bullying." — the ASA is basically the funniest thing ever. 19:39:46 Phantom_Hoover: well people might whack goths with irn brus 19:39:48 "HAVE A FUCKING IRN BRU" 19:39:58 BRB 19:40:04 dammit, i should stop giving ph ideas 19:40:21 idea: language where all expressions have side effects. an integer expression is in fact of the form kB where B is a block of code (possibly empty) that is executed k times. 19:40:26 is it just me, or is wikipedia's new anti-vandal policy is to show the edit button as "View source" until you click it, if you're not logged in? 19:40:39 it's ingenious in its stupidity 19:47:58 > let 6 > 7 = True in 6 > 7 19:47:59 True 19:48:20 cpressey really likes this part of haskell 19:49:43 so it would appear 19:49:44 yes. it is amusing. 19:50:01 It's the BEST part of Haskell. 19:50:03 > let in 5 19:50:04 5 19:50:06 also good. 19:50:36 > let in let in let in let in let in let in "let" 19:50:37 "let" 19:50:44 > let a = 5 where in a 19:50:46 5 19:50:56 * Sgeo is reading about the Maude language 19:51:09 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:51:09 > let me in 4 19:51:10 : parse error on input `in' 19:51:21 > let 2+2=5 in 2+2 19:51:21 Sgeo: I never got very far with Maude 19:51:22 5 19:51:30 I... just tried to tab-complete Maude, though 19:51:42 Well, it IS a name 19:53:07 > let a | otherwise = b where in a 19:53:08 b 19:53:59 > do let; let; "hi" 19:54:01 : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 19:54:08 sadly missing 19:54:15 cpressey: watchoo do to http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html, i'm logreading and broken links totally destroy my flow 19:54:17 oerjan: omg that would be awesome 19:54:25 > do let in; let in; "hi" 19:54:26 : parse error on input `;' 19:54:32 let in do let; let in do let; let; "hi"; let in do let 19:54:51 > let in do let in do let in do let in "hi" 19:54:52 "hi" 19:55:02 16:22:32: I think the name 'Irn Bru' is inherently bullying. 19:55:10 cpressey: really? well i guess it's kinda cheesy 19:55:13 I GUESS YOU JUST HAVE TO GROW UP WITH IT 19:55:22 IT'S MADE IN SCOTLAND WITH GIRDERS 19:55:36 it suggests the lowest-class pronunciation in my head 19:55:50 don't know if that was intentional or what 19:55:53 cpressey: it's probably meant to 19:56:02 i don't really parse it out as, you know, iron brew 19:56:16 man it's old, 1901 19:56:45 Irn-Bru and Diet Irn-Bru have been formulated since 2002 by A.G. Barr plc to meet the regulations for food colouring of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Ponceau 4R used in the UK formulation is prohibited by U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Barr's uses alternative food and drink colourants manufactured by a US Company approved by the FDA. The product labelling also meets US labelling standards on nutritional information and bar code 19:56:46 . Compliant Irn-Bru is solely imported by Great Scot International in Charlotte, North Carolina, who supplies distributors and retailers throughout the US. It is only supplied in 16.9 fl.oz. 19:56:53 cpressey: HA, YOUR PUNY COUNTRY CAN'T HANDLE SCOTTISH METAL DRINK 19:57:13 16:30:59: UNLESS you put it on a GIANT TURNTABLE 19:57:14 this is now the best idea 19:57:20 wait you mean irn bru isn't something fancy gaelic? 19:57:33 hi oerjan 19:57:37 hi channel 19:57:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:57:49 :D 19:57:52 hi ais523 19:58:04 ais523 cannot drink Irn Bru because he is a PANSY 19:58:36 they made irn bru technically illegal with no penalty just so ais523 couldn't drink it 19:59:07 I wouldn't drink it anyway, I don't like that sort of thing 19:59:19 PAAAAAAANNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSYYYYYYYy 19:59:44 There's something... fun about Maude's infix operators 20:00:04 oerjan: <3 20:00:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:01:03 we need a language with non-euclidean operators 20:01:09 Yes. Yes we do. 20:01:26 As the channel's resident expert on stupid non-Euclidean things, I approve. 20:01:27 the kind Man was Not Meant to Know 20:01:59 Phantom_Hoover: i'm gonna BLOW YOUR MIND 20:02:01 Phantom_Hoover: the universe 20:02:03 Phantom_Hoover: ... 20:02:06 Phantom_Hoover: is NON-EUCLIDEAN 20:02:08 so this language should be C(noneuclidean operator)^2 20:02:20 I guess 20:04:27 elliott: fuck you :| 20:04:40 augur: :) 20:04:54 agdas pretty neat tho 20:05:26 why waste all your time proving things that would take three seconds in coq :) 20:05:29 yes. yes it does. 20:05:36 elliott: ey? 20:05:48 augur: proving things in agda is a bitch. compared to coq 20:06:33 elliott: maybe. its not /too/ bad, i find. i like how it forces you to understand the structure of the proof, which i feel is good if im going to be writing papers using a proof assistant as a tool 20:06:40 uh 20:06:44 i dont want to have to explain the magic of coq on top of stuff 20:06:44 ITT: augur has never used coq ever 20:06:52 this is true! 20:06:56 the magic of coq? 20:07:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:07:07 proofs in agda == proofs in coq. coq just has tools to help you write them, and agda doesn't. 20:07:14 oh what 20:07:24 what tools does coq have? 20:07:30 proofgeneral's interface to the toplevel. 20:07:38 ill have to take a look 20:07:42 you can see all your assumptions and your current goal, plus the goals left after that 20:07:48 and undo proof steps, etc. 20:07:49 augur, also the entire tactic language. 20:07:52 that too. 20:08:03 i dont mind the agda stuff. its fun to figure out how to construct it. 20:08:08 but ill take a look at coq 20:08:11 although if he's avoiding "magic" (like agda's library isn't magic?) he might want to avoid "auto" :) 20:08:19 augur: turn on three window mode and electric terminator in proofgeneral 20:08:21 im not using much of agda 20:08:23 's library 20:08:48 you are 20:08:53 because you're using its proof combinators 20:08:58 unless you're writing proofs in direct functional style 20:09:01 which i doubt 20:09:03 oh here it is 20:09:07 (setq proof-three-window-enable t) 20:09:13 eh 20:09:15 and (setq proof-electric-terminator-enable t) 20:09:20 what do you mean in direct functional stuff 20:09:28 augur: paste a proof/lemma 20:09:33 i'll tell you whether you're using the library or not 20:09:43 (protip: if there's unicode, you are) 20:09:55 well then! 20:09:59 i use unicode a lot. 20:10:20 augur: i mean apart from the things you type. 20:10:29 o wut 20:10:31 if there are unicode things in your source file that aren't names you made up 20:10:34 you are using the stdlib 20:10:43 oh probably are 20:10:59 then that's magic. if you don't believe me, look at its source sometime. 20:11:23 http://hpaste.org/45440/syntax_crap 20:11:33 look at whats source 20:12:08 the stdlib's. why are you making this simple conversation so painful X_X 20:12:17 oh right 20:12:40 oh nice, you're actually copy-pasting the stdlib directly in. 20:12:51 not copy and pasting anything 20:12:59 welp, typical unicode agda noise :) 20:13:00 are you referring to danielsson's standard library? 20:14:00 part of the reason im doing it this way is that i want to understand the structure of the program as completely as possible, and making it myself helps me understand 20:14:09 i am referring to the agda standard library 20:14:16 http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~nad/listings/lib-0.5/README.html 20:14:18 so eys. 20:14:19 *yes. 20:14:57 and part of it is that if i have to explain some crap to anyone who asks (who isnt so good on all of this mathylogicy stuff) i'd like to be able to give them a clean answer from the source code directly 20:15:08 without referencing some magic library off somewhere in the ether 20:15:18 or, you know, just linking to its source 20:15:29 except thats more problematic if im giving a presentation. 20:15:37 and someone asks about this or that 20:15:41 anyway, i can't see any of this being very easy to explain because like most agda it uses unicode tricks and mixfix to obscure the point 20:15:50 then i have to try and remember what the standard lib says etc etc whatever 20:15:53 i see they still noise up their code with explicit level wrangling, too 20:16:04 coq doesn't have that :) 20:16:10 hooray! 20:16:15 maybe ill use coq 20:16:16 ANYWAY 20:16:18 point is 20:16:29 i rather like the unicode and mixfix 20:16:31 why dont you like it? 20:16:55 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:24:06 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:24:38 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:26:06 h 20:26:08 hm 20:26:10 coq looks interesting 20:26:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:27:02 i dont follow the structure of the proofs tho 20:27:04 -!- cheater99 has joined. 20:28:06 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:28:59 i understand agda proofs -- if it type checks, youve got a proof 20:29:04 flrgbl 20:29:05 i dont get coq at all 20:29:31 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:34:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:36:37 Hmmm, OmniGraffle is the only graphical tool I've ever used that I would say is appropriate for people with OCD :P ... mmm, maybe also Minecraft. 20:41:09 i understand agda proofs -- if it type checks, youve got a proof 20:41:13 augur: uhh, same with Coq? 20:41:37 apparently someone rewrote xmonad in Coq 20:41:39 just because they could 20:41:41 ais523: ... 20:41:46 ais523: stop being slashdot 20:41:53 (with the normal Reddit-related meaning of "apparently") 20:41:59 not even reddit had that, I've seen the posts 20:42:09 it did, I think 20:42:12 "We rewrote parts of xmonad's core algorithms in Coq to prove them correct and extracted the results to Haskell" 20:42:14 -->ais523--> 20:42:23 "Someone rewrote xmonad in Coq!" 20:42:25 "For no reason!" 20:42:37 elliott: no, Transcript and Smalltalk are not classes. 20:42:44 tswett: well, they're objects 20:42:47 elliott: perhaps! but the proofs also have all these other things 20:42:53 augur: no they don't 20:42:54 beh, it'd have been more fun if there was no reason 20:42:56 unfold f, g. destruct h. etc etc 20:42:59 augur: yes, those are tactics 20:43:04 augur: if you "Print proof_name" 20:43:06 you see the lambda form 20:43:09 oh ok 20:43:10 elliott: I define "better" as "skiing is not better than chess, nor vice versa". 20:43:13 the tactics just make proofs about 159% easier to write 20:43:33 tswett: Then I say that your question is unanswerable. 20:43:38 * tswett nods. 20:43:44 tvvl: 18 20:43:52 Nope, the bot's dead. 20:43:52 Perhaps any new came-up-with game would be better technically, or in some other sense, than PerlNomic, but that does not mean it would be a better game. 20:43:58 I'd say that both are games worth playing. 20:45:36 * tswett nods. 20:45:57 Say, elliott, would you happen to know of an implementation of a Lisp that has Smalltalk-esque orthogonal persistence? :P 20:46:25 Well, just about every Common Lisp implementation lets you save the current world. 20:46:31 But, well, Common Lisp. 20:46:44 That sounds desirable. 20:47:01 flrgbl flrbgl 20:47:43 flrgbl flrbgl shfpngr! 20:47:55 tswett: Yes, but, Common Lisp. 20:47:58 Someone rewrite skiing's core algorithms in chess to prove them better and extracted the results to xmonad. 20:48:03 cpressey: yes 20:48:08 I like the change of tense there 20:48:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 20:48:44 I think all mathematics should be developed with the goal of using it in a window manager. 20:49:00 Mathematical research should follow this algorithm: 20:49:13 omg, does this mean that the singularity will manage windows for me 20:49:16 by reading my mind 20:49:22 and figuring out my desired arrangement 20:49:47 1. Think of an idea. 2. Make hypotheses about the idea. 3. Prove as many of the hypotheses as possible. 4. Incorporate all resulting theorems into xmonad. 20:49:50 Repeat. 20:50:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:56:38 This message has been translated into French. 20:57:31 whoa 20:57:42 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]). 20:58:20 cpressey: ce message a trad.. a francais 20:58:21 Well, just about every Common Lisp implementation lets you save the current world. ← I don't recall non-SBCL or CMUCL having it, but I wasn't exactly thorough. 20:58:22 x.x 20:58:28 Suffice to say it's different in everything. 20:58:30 YAY CL 20:58:53 Doesn't CCL have it? 21:06:19 Dunno. 21:06:28 Not under the same name as SBCL, that's for sure. 21:07:44 I hope to never, ever program anything in that language. 21:08:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:10:47 cpressey: Err, what, Lisp? 21:13:28 cpressey: Better experience than 99% of languages... 21:16:49 Well, Common Lisp specifically. 21:17:09 cpressey: I stand by my statement :) 21:17:50 cpressey: Admittedly the modern /environments/ aren't so ideal. 21:18:09 But the language itself is something I'd much rather have to code in than almost every other language. 21:18:14 (There are maybe ten exceptions.) 21:18:20 LIST THEM 21:18:38 Epigram 2 doesn't count due to not existing in any meaningful way. 21:19:03 Haskell is one! 21:19:13 And the others? 21:19:30 I DIDN'T MAKE A LIST 21:21:42 too few languages to warrant making a list 21:22:10 anyway, EVERYTHING SUCKS 21:22:30 olsner: you're either mocking me perfectly, or are a man I can relate to. 21:22:37 it's a Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Void))))))))) 21:22:38 As long as Scheme is one of the exceptions, it kind of wins out, for me. 21:23:05 definitely not a list 21:23:18 cpressey: Yeah, but if you were groaning at the lack of standardised names... at least the name for common list operations are the same in every Common Lisp :P 21:23:33 cpressey: And, sure, but, Common Lisp or PHP? 21:23:39 Common Lisp or Python? Perl? C? Ada? 21:23:39 elliott: Pharen! 21:23:42 COBOL? 21:23:55 cpressey: I... am floored that you know what Pharen is. 21:24:01 Even I had to Google it. 21:24:11 phar out man 21:24:17 I heard [about it] through the grapevine 21:24:23 er, *[about] 21:24:23 "a compiler that takes a Lisp-like language and turns it into PHP" :/ 21:24:32 cpressey: was just about to correct you BRO 21:24:39 ... C++? Arc? 21:24:43 Prolog? 21:25:04 I mean, 90% of languages are really bad. 21:25:16 9% of the rest are tolerable but not any good. 21:25:27 I'd say Common Lisp almost certainly belongs to the remaining 1%. 21:25:31 *90% of the rest 21:25:34 I would totally program in C for fun before I would program in Common Lisp for fun. 21:25:58 cpressey: I don't really see how you could place Scheme above 'em but CL below C. 21:26:12 Sure, the multiple namespaces is a bit crappy, and a lot of the standard names suck but... it's still Lisp 21:26:30 Also CLOS. 21:26:48 Well, right, CLOS is one of the two tolerable OOP systems out there :) 21:29:03 elliott: I qualified my statement with "for fun" -- I am not concocting an absolute total order here. 21:29:48 I mean, dude. I just wrote a bot in R. 21:29:48 Confound your imprecision! 21:29:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:30:04 Do I put R above Common Lisp? Apparently! 21:32:07 right now I have to debug Javascript :( not by choice obv 21:33:25 cpressey: HAVE FUN DUDE 21:34:03 Y U PUT BUG IN PROGRAM? well, now you get to take it out... 21:34:11 cpressey: "Ten days without much sleep to build JS from scratch, "make it look like Java" (I made it look like C), and smuggle in its saving graces: first class functions (closures came later but were part of the plan), Self-ish prototypes (one per instance, not many as in Self)." 21:34:20 cpressey: ONLY KINSHIP WITH BRENDAN EICH CAN SAVE YOU 21:34:44 cpressey, have I mentioned the time my school told everyone to use IE 5 *for Mac* to run JS. 21:35:07 Phantom_Hoover: yes. olsner: Django. (no further words are needed) 21:35:30 Phantom_Hoover: Actually IE 5 for Mac was an okay browser. 21:35:33 It shared no code with the Windows version. 21:35:54 Indeed, but this was *last year*. 21:35:56 cpressey: listen to Django Reinhardt while doing it, it'll be SO IRONIC (hipster for "worthwhile, validating experience") 21:36:01 On computers *with Safari installed.* 21:36:10 Phantom_Hoover: :D 21:36:18 cpressey: (I have never listened to Django Reinhardt and don't plan to) 21:36:20 -!- cheater00 has joined. 21:38:06 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:38:13 django is named after a person? 21:38:23 thought it would be a giraffe or something 21:40:37 :D 21:40:43 `addquote django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something 21:40:46 353) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something 21:42:17 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 21:42:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:37 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:44:52 "In Tron, the hacker was not supposed to be snooping around on a network; he was supposed to kill a process. So we went with posix kill and also had him pipe ps into grep. I also ended up using emacs eshell to make the terminal more l33t. The team was delighted to see my emacs performance -- splitting the editor into nested panes and running different modes. I was tickled that I got emacs into a block buster movie." 21:46:31 http://jtnimoy-public.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/178/TRON_GFX_BR_07.JPG 21:46:34 OH DEAR GOD 21:46:39 how far in the future is tron set 21:46:41 because what i am seeing is: 21:46:43 udev is never going to die 21:46:47 (tron legacy that is) 21:48:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:56:30 -!- olsner has joined. 22:12:07 topipidpiaidpiapidpipiapidpiapidapidpipipidapidapidpiapidapidpiadadaapdiapidpia 22:12:41 elliott: obviously! 22:12:54 oerjan: tapodpiapotpi 22:13:09 maybe. 22:20:44 cpressey: you will love this 22:20:47 !python print 'test' 22:20:53 `run python -c "print 'test'" 22:20:55 test 22:21:04 `run python -c "True = False; print True; print True is False" 22:21:06 False \ True 22:21:10 `run python -c "True = False; print True; print True is False; print (True is False) is True" 22:21:12 False \ True \ False 22:21:15 cpressey: ^ 22:22:18 -!- marchdown_ has joined. 22:22:30 marchdown: no, march up 22:24:34 -!- marchdown has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:24:35 -!- marchdown_ has changed nick to marchdown. 22:24:38 THAT'S RIGHT 22:27:47 elliott: yep 22:28:05 mutable boolean constants 22:28:22 mutabonstants 22:28:35 that sounds exactly as awkward as the idea of mutable constants is 22:30:55 DO #1 <- #2 22:31:09 ais523: please tell me that works 22:31:16 elliott: it requires -v 22:31:22 what does -v do again? extensions? 22:31:23 but works 22:31:27 no, it just lets you do tha 22:31:29 *that 22:31:37 I thought that letting people do it by accident was too mean 22:31:57 nothing that happens in INTERCAL is ever an accident 22:31:58 in CLC-INTERCAL, you have to write it indirectly, as in DO .1 <- #2 DO .1 <- .1/#1 22:32:19 that's a simple example, but in general it can be hard to spot you're assigning to a constant in more complex programs 22:33:05 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: /catch sufficiently not mephitic solidity). 22:33:10 so I put it behind an option for safety reasons 22:36:10 also for portability, DO #1 <- #2 is a syntax error in INTERCAL-72, and thus might be being used for its properties as a syntax error 22:36:21 and the switch chooses whether it compiles as a syntax error or a calculate statement 22:40:28 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:40:30 heh, it's literally impossible to extend INTERCAL 22:40:44 you can extend most languages safely by making a previously-invalid construct valid 22:40:48 in INTERCAL, that doesn't work 22:41:16 elliott: some extensions have been done like that 22:41:23 e.g. threading when two COME FROMs aim at the same line 22:41:23 ais523: but they break programs that rely on those lines to be invalid 22:41:29 indeed 22:41:39 What you can do with INTERCAL is make up where there are compiler switches to select which extensions are available 22:46:01 CLC-INTERCAL actually uses a plugin architecture to handle thata 22:46:03 *that 22:46:07 although they're called "preloads" 22:49:27 -!- augur has joined. 22:53:45 Do you know what is wrong with the "TRON:Legacy" picture? Is that the control key is missing. 22:55:44 noted 22:56:14 oh, tron: legacy is set in... the present day? huh 23:00:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:00:20 -!- wharrrgarbl has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 23:01:07 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:03:22 I tried to send a program to CTAN but it is not on there 23:13:39 Stanislav apparently likes Squeak 23:14:31 Sadly, there seem to be no blog posts about it 23:14:43 * Sgeo_ sees one thing that possibly tangentally mentions Smalltalk 23:16:24 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined. 23:16:47 "The Lisp Machine (which could just as easily have been, say, a Smalltalk machine)..." 23:16:49 how boring 23:16:59 oh yes just as easily 23:18:28 Common Lisp = Arc = Clojure 23:18:43 = Guile 23:18:48 = EMACS 23:19:12 = Smalltalk * 0.910071 23:19:59 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=85 23:20:19 no 23:22:12 GRAAAAAAHHHHHHH hi 23:22:14 well bye 23:22:17 -!- ZOMGMODULES has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:22:17 -!- cheater- has joined. 23:25:12 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:29:05 -!- wharrrgarbl has joined. 23:29:38 * Sgeo_ wonders how difficult it would be to make a Morphic web browser in Squeak 23:31:54 w 23:32:36 ? 23:42:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnu tide). 23:43:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:46:05 The PDF of TUGboat 3,1 (March 1982), 10-27 is difficult to read. Where is the web source file for that article? 23:46:15 -!- augur has joined. 23:46:59 Maybe I should ask Knuth for a copy? 23:54:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:57:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2011-04-08: 00:03:34 -!- augur has joined. 00:19:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:25:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:26:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:00 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:30:17 -!- wharrrgarbl has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:31:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:32:05 -!- augur has joined. 00:33:18 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: No route to host). 00:41:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:50:42 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:57:01 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:42:06 x 01:50:30 elliott's learning the alphabet! How cute! 01:58:54 o 01:59:20 r 02:05:00 punching trees gives him wood 02:06:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:07:10 -!- augur has joined. 02:10:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:10:46 -!- augur has joined. 02:21:10 -!- marchdown_ has joined. 02:21:20 hi marchdown 02:21:30 -!- marchdown has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:21:31 -!- marchdown_ has changed nick to marchdown. 02:39:56 -MemoServ- [...]'s inbox is full 02:39:59 Well that's a new one. 02:52:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:52:46 -!- augur has joined. 03:10:01 Just read a blog post called "Pharo, the death kneel of Squeak?" 03:10:11 And misread it as "Pharo, the death kneel of Smalltalk?" 03:10:19 (This is on a Cincom blog, so) 03:33:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:34:19 -!- augur has joined. 04:26:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:26:41 -!- augur has joined. 04:32:59 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:01:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:03:04 Ah, crud, found a bug in some Pharo documentation 05:05:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:06:56 Sgeo_: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/mls/blogView?entry=3429226129 ? 05:07:18 yeah 05:14:12 -!- lament has joined. 05:14:49 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:17:56 -!- zzo38 has left. 05:23:25 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:24:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:34:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:35:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:49:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:11:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:12:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:25:56 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:42:17 -!- wth has joined. 06:44:35 -!- wth has left. 07:15:41 " I am becoming more and more convinced that programming (heavily, exclusively) in Python changes the way you think for the worse." <<< python hasn't changed me at all, i think 07:17:00 " idea: language where all expressions have side effects. an integer expression is in fact of the form kB where B is a block of code (possibly empty) that is executed k times." <<< this is how you implement integers in lc, kinda, except for the side-effects part :D 07:29:22 -!- wth has joined. 07:35:17 -!- wth has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:06:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:07:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:11:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:13:50 -MemoServ- [...]'s inbox is full 08:14:04 i told you, its notice is too subtle... 08:14:56 well i suppose that might not be the cause there 08:35:14 -!- cheater00 has joined. 08:36:07 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:56:42 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:09:48 -!- aloril has joined. 09:20:34 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:31:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 09:32:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:42:15 -!- cheater00 has joined. 09:58:52 In a VLQ stream could you use 0x80 as a terminator? (That is, assuming you are not in the middle of a number) 10:20:23 -!- cheater99 has joined. 10:21:49 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:23:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:31:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:53:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:23:21 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:27:30 -!- sftp has joined. 13:01:39 [["Jake liked his women the way he liked his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and covered with short brown fuzzy hair."]] 13:01:39 Wow, a succinct Bulwer-Lytton. 13:06:39 I think I just saw an Evony ad without any breasts at all. 13:31:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:31:56 Today seems to be a day for the impossible. 13:32:06 -!- pumpkin has joined. 13:35:16 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia. 13:35:17 I finally succeeded at something! 13:35:18 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 13:35:18 -!- Lymia has joined. 13:35:22 Phantom_Hoover: Why must the Bulwer-Lytton web site be the most abysmally 1993 web site ever? 13:35:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:35:37 I realised $800 is absurd for a domain name! 13:35:46 I found something I don't hate! 13:35:54 I'm very very angry! 13:36:19 Perhaps I take myself a bit too seriously! 13:36:22 Sorry, $800 is not absurd for a domain name if it's libc.so, you're not gettin' that out of me :P 13:37:05 IPv4 exhaustion? I haven't really been following it... 13:38:05 QUICK I NEED MORE 13:39:24 Today I shall make enough of an impression on someone that they could identify me personality and parody it. 13:39:26 OHHHHHHH 13:39:59 Gregor, :D 13:40:40 Hmm, I forgot to pay for something. Ah, well, it's not worth fretting over. 13:42:18 [A completely normal comment.] 13:43:26 I found something I don't hate! <-- that actually happens, but then after looking at it for five more minutes he realizes he did in fact hate it. 13:44:19 <{aloril, bsmntbombdood, dbc, enki-[quit], iamcal, jcp, jix, lifthrasiir, mtve, mycroftiv, pingveno, rodgort, sebbu, sftp, shachaf, SimonRC, yiyus, Zwaarddijk}> ANYTHING AT ALL 13:44:32 hah 13:45:05 Gregor, wait what, the domain is at $800 ? That's insane 13:45:16 Vorpal: The domain finally went for $1,350 13:45:22 Gregor, who won it? 13:45:29 Mr. 449 13:45:36 not you then? 13:45:52 I'm Mr. 442 :P 13:45:56 ah 13:53:15 Phantom_Hoover: Zwaarddijk talks. 13:53:34 I remember a time when bsmntbombdood, SimonRC and jix talked :P 13:53:45 dbc is an enigma. 13:54:03 He's a Researcher Of Brainfuck, no? 13:54:13 ENIGMA 13:55:48 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:59:57 Phantom_Hoover, To add to Gregor's list: lifthrasiir used to talk. mycroftiv talks sometimes, but rarely. sebbu I remember talking too. 14:00:35 He said tonnes back in The Day. 14:00:41 (dbc, that is.) 14:01:39 ENIGMA 14:06:24 jesus.. osx is so terrible.. i am having flashbacks 14:06:52 seriously, can't alt-tab to a window? what? 14:07:06 cheater99, cmd-tab? 14:07:10 cluttering the switcher menu with inactive applications? 14:07:17 Vorpal: yes, it's "an alt-tab" 14:07:27 cheater99, same thing... 14:07:40 no it's not, because you can't alt-tab into a window 14:07:50 you can alt-tab into an applciation and it brings up all of its windows at once. 14:08:01 Ah, wait, I have another one. 14:08:01 welcome to multitasking a'la 1982 14:08:10 and the best of them all.. you install applications by copying folders. 14:08:12 I grew up! 14:08:32 Phantom_Hoover: is that why all this hair has started showing up in weird places? 14:09:17 Phantom_Hoover: wait, growing up - i'm glad they didn't put me in a retirement house yet! 14:09:40 cheater99, actually, self-contained applications is a good idea. The OS X packages may or may not be a good way to do that though. 14:10:01 it's an insanely bad idea 14:10:05 what if i copy it to the wrong spot? 14:10:08 but on windows, and linux, applications tend to spread out 14:10:23 i mean the idea of doing it like osx does it is bad 14:10:32 linux has package manager, that works. Windows is a mess when it comes to installing/uninstalling things. 14:10:33 self-containment might have some merit, but i am not so sure either 14:10:38 i like packages with dependencies more 14:10:45 yes, osx is a similar mess 14:11:14 cheater99, not quite. As for copying to wrong spot, I doubt things would blow up 14:11:18 oh yeah, let's have a billion copies of the same software in slightly-incompatible versions with different bugs in them 14:12:09 really, the lacking of a real alt-tab is devastating to my productivity 14:12:29 using the mouse to navigate between firefox windows? who's come up with that sick joke? 14:12:49 cheater99, Only thing I use often that doesn't do tabs or such inside a single main window is gimp 14:13:10 most things, like browser, text editor, and so on, are tabbed or similar. 14:13:21 tabs ok 14:13:25 but i use tabs + windows 14:13:31 cheater99, why do you use multiple firefox windows... 14:13:58 one window for email, one window for reading up on whatever technology i am using right now, one window for another technology, one window for something else 14:14:13 cheater99, anyway, I'm sure there is some third party program to do what you want. Or you could install linux on that thing. 14:14:47 cheater99, email is a separate program, no? 14:15:02 yes, gmail. 14:15:09 ... 14:15:17 thunderbird or such 14:15:22 yes, gmail 14:15:45 it's not like gmail is running on my compu^w mac 14:15:56 can't call a mac a computer :| 14:16:04 just... can't. *sigh* 14:16:14 I use gmail from thunderbird with IMAP 14:16:24 i use gmail with firefox 14:17:06 Vorpal: another thing is that all the software on mac is paid-for 14:17:31 i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories 14:17:36 anyway, I'm sure there is some solution to your issue. Besides alt-tab is rather inefficient I find. Unless you just have a handful of windows/programs you end up tabbing a lot 14:18:00 with more than 10 windows or so, alt-tab is pretty much unusable 14:18:12 unless they happen to lie close to each other 14:18:42 i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories <-- that made no sense. 14:18:50 well i usually end up using only a few windows during any given extended time 14:19:30 so alt-tab works well, i only need to alt-tab 3-deep most times 14:19:42 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:19:55 when i am changing my workflow (for example, starting to work on something else) i usually use the taskbar... oh wait, osx HAS NO TASKBAR 14:19:56 :( 14:20:55 it has a dock, which you can put stuff in. And also shows open programs. From what I remember the windows 7 task bar works pretty much the same. 14:23:51 -!- cheater00 has joined. 14:24:36 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:26:22 Vorpal: i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories <-- that made no sense. < what i meant was that you have to pay for such simple things, things that in linux have been solved ages ago, to much better effect than those paid-for options for mac, and the linux versions are free. 14:33:07 Phantom_Hoover: To continue your "impossibilities" theme: [something that is not an ASCII-art fractal] 14:33:43 -!- elliott has joined. 14:33:46 HOLY SHIT THE CLOG HEADER FILE CHANGED 14:33:57 "For pre-2011 clog logs, go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/." 14:33:58 WTF 14:33:59 *wtf 14:34:01 that's just stupid 14:34:04 now all log links are broken 14:34:21 wtf 14:34:25 they're only available in zip now 14:34:40 Makes sense, though. 14:34:49 No it doesn't. 14:34:58 Breaking links is not a good idea. Ever. 14:36:00 OK, fair enough. 14:36:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:36:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:36:59 (OK, it is *sometimes*.) 14:37:15 (But not for small, easily-kept, widely-publicised (in the community) plain text files like IRC logs.) 14:44:33 Obviously the only sensible solution is for #esoteric to become an IDF (International DOI Foundation) registered Registration Agency, and thereafter assign a DOI for each #esoteric log-line, to ensure them links will always stay intact. 14:44:46 -!- Zuu has joined. 14:45:39 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:49:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:49:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:56:14 what is a DOI? 14:57:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:02:35 It's a supposedly-permanent-identifier-for-an-object thing; quite a lot of sciencey publishers provide DOIs for their papers. 15:03:04 It's at least significant enough to not be in Wikipedia :P 15:04:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:04:55 -!- elliott has joined. 15:06:53 fizzie: why have you not told me what DOI stands for? 15:12:06 -!- wth has joined. 15:14:30 -!- wth has left. 15:24:09 -!- lament has joined. 15:25:13 Document Object Identifier. 15:25:27 Sorry, Digital. 15:25:35 And it's in Wikipedia all right. 15:27:28 Oh, so it is, I just didn't speculate that that would be the expansion you were going for. 15:29:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:31:34 Vorpal, sometimes, but rarely ;) 15:36:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:38:06 13:35:22: Phantom_Hoover: Why must the Bulwer-Lytton web site be the most abysmally 1993 web site ever? 15:38:21 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 15:38:23 Gregor: Because the Bulwer-Lytton is ~0% as awesome as the Lyttle Lytton. 15:39:46 13:42:18: [A completely normal comment.] 15:39:50 oh my god this is the best thing ever :D 15:40:06 13:53:34: I remember a time when bsmntbombdood, SimonRC and jix talked :P 15:40:10 Gregor: i remember when the first two did 15:40:25 13:53:45: dbc is an enigma. 15:40:25 I THINK WE'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED HE'S VERY BUSY 15:40:51 -!- wth has joined. 15:41:03 -!- wth has left. 15:41:08 14:06:24: jesus.. osx is so terrible.. i am having flashbacks 15:41:08 14:06:52: seriously, can't alt-tab to a window? what? 15:41:16 OH NOES OS X IS APPLICATION ORIENTED AND IT TAKES A DIFFERENT KEY COMBO TO SWITCH WINDOWS 15:41:34 14:08:10: and the best of them all.. you install applications by copying folders. 15:41:35 OH NOES I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH INSANELY CRAPPY INSTALLERS, APPLICATIONS ARE SELF-CONTAINED AND seriously there is not a single thing wrong with applications as directories? 15:41:38 this is the poorest trolling ever 15:42:46 -!- wth has joined. 15:42:57 14:09:40: cheater99, actually, self-contained applications is a good idea. The OS X packages may or may not be a good way to do that though. 15:42:57 14:10:01: it's an insanely bad idea 15:42:57 14:10:05: what if i copy it to the wrong spot? 15:42:58 ... 15:43:05 i should totally not be feeding the troll but what the hell, Vorpal already did 15:43:06 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:43:19 especially considering that os x apps can run from anywhere anyway 15:43:32 -!- wth has left. 15:44:21 14:33:07: Phantom_Hoover: To continue your "impossibilities" theme: [something that is not an ASCII-art fractal] 15:44:26 fizzie: 2002 much? 15:45:01 OS X's implementation of virtual desktops ("spaces") is abysmally bad, and in particular breaks modal windows; if they open in a non-current space, they have all modal properties except that they are not always-on-top or visible on every space, so they force the user (me) to play Hunt The Window. Other than that my problems with OS X are mainly its hilariously obsolete console userland and pointlessly flashy UI. LET THE TROLLERY BEGIN. 15:45:10 elliott: I am such an old-fashioned guy. 15:45:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:18 Gregor: Nobody likes Spaces X-P 15:45:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:45:47 APNIC: 7 215 616 IP addresses left (0.43 blocks, down 0.08): 64k to China, 3x4k+1k to Japan, 1M to South Korea, 256 to Signapore, 6x32k to Thailand, 16k+2k to Vietnam 15:45:51 Gregor: Nothing you said is incorrect, unlike every single incredibly poor trolling attempt by cheater that still provoked me and Vorpal into replying :P 15:46:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:46:26 I like appdirs, wish LiGnuX (lol) would adopt 'em. 15:46:40 Gregor: ROX is that way :P 15:46:55 Gregor: (ROX being the rather dead attempt to clone the RISC OS environment on LeeGNUx.) 15:47:13 Gregor: ROX Filer actually supports them, anyway, and IIRC there's some kind of Zero-Install integration :P 15:47:20 (ROX Filer is also the only tolerable graphical file manager.) 15:47:43 The only tolerable graphical file manager is coreutils in an xterm! 15:48:09 I still want a terminal/file manager hybrid that lets me type "t*" and all the files starting with t in the current directory would get highlighted in the top pane :P 15:48:20 And also select files graphically and have it update a glob on the command line. 15:48:47 e.g. "mv foo.png [fishes in top pane through subdir hierarchy for the right dir] a/b/c/d" 15:49:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:49:49 I'm also waiting for PureDarwin :P 15:49:56 ANY YEAR NOW MAN 15:49:57 ANY YEAR NOW 15:50:26 Gregor: I want the opposite... I want someone to use that Mach-O loader to port all the OS X foundation libraries and then run the Quartz display server on it X-D 15:50:51 ALSO KNOWN AS: The easiest way to get a userland newer than 10 years old in an OS X environment 15:51:18 ... I'm not sure what the purpose of using maloader is for that ... 15:51:31 Gregor: Because... all the OS X Quartz binaries... are Mach-Os? 15:51:34 And closed source? 15:51:39 PureDarwin uses Mach-O, and is compatible with console Mac OS X apps. 15:51:59 Well, yeah, you could do that. 15:52:06 In principle you could drag over the appropriate files from a Mac OS X install and make some beastly hybrid. 15:52:14 OS X's implementation of virtual desktops ("spaces") is abysmally bad, and in particular breaks modal windows; if they open in a non-current space, they have all modal properties except that they are not always-on-top or visible on every space, so they force the user (me) to play Hunt The Window. Other than that my problems with OS X are mainly its hilariously obsolete console userland and poin 15:52:15 tlessly flashy UI. LET THE TROLLERY BEGIN. <-- apart from system auth dialogs and critical system error messages, modal windows are a *bad* idea. 15:52:20 gah the line length 15:52:22 I'm not sure the kernel modules and drivers and the like would interact properly :P 15:52:31 Vorpal: Yes, they are, but that doesn't make it OK to break them ... 15:52:41 elliott: True enough *shrugs* 15:52:54 Gregor: Anyway, the thing with app folders is that they're... wait for it... essentially just static linking. 15:53:03 At least if done in the OS X "every app includes its dependencies" sense. 15:53:05 Gregor, they shouldn't be permitted IMO. Like you should need to run with elevated privs to be able to tell the windowing system to show a modal window. 15:53:21 I suppose you could have a nice deduplicative system that hard-links libraries with equivalent checksums and filenames, but :P 15:53:38 What I'm sayin' is: STATIC LINKING IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER 15:54:31 I mean, how hard would it be to make a screen locker kind of application without the unlocking stuff? I doubt you need special privs with X11 for it, other than the basic "permitted to talk to server" 15:54:53 Vorpal: Depends how you define "modal" 15:55:07 If it's "modal to one window/application", that's shitty, but not something to ban 15:55:11 elliott, well, modal within an application would be okay yeah 15:55:12 Especially as the app could simulate it itself. 15:55:14 elliott: Static linking is fine, people just have to learn that there's a distinction between "random vendor-supplied garbage" and "random distro-supplied garbage", and different types of linking and inclusion policies are better for each. 15:55:21 elliott, what I meant here was system wide modal 15:55:59 Gregor: Sure... but on a typical Linux system, there's not much more than libc that fits the system-wide dynamic policy there :P 15:56:38 Maybe libpng and the like, ncurses, arguably gtk/qt, ... 15:56:52 elliott, which should pretty much be limited to stuff like auth dialogs, confirmation of shutdown/log out, and criticial errors ("system logger just crashed" would be a good example) 15:56:53 But eh 15:57:06 elliott: Well, now that you've covered 95% of libraries that programs typically link to, what next? :P 15:57:32 Gregor: I said ARGUABLY gtk/qt, I don't think I'd dynamically link those in reality. 15:57:44 Because I don't trust GUI lib vendors to not fuck up the ABI :) 15:58:07 $ du -h /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2 15:58:07 16M /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2 15:58:24 elliott, I have an idea. It has probably been thought of before. On-the-fly static linking. (Probably with some OS-managed caching though) 15:58:25 (Not an argument, just an observation I always ♥) 15:58:58 Gregor: Yah, that's a really convincing argument that C++ and Qt and WebKit all need to die in a fiery pit :P 15:59:24 elliott, basically it statically links in .a and .o on as required when you run it. This would allow deduplicative storage too 15:59:38 What OBLISK did way back when I maintained it was accept any host libraries that pass the ldd -r test, and if they don't it swapped them out for included libraries. So bugfixes or distro integration could be used in most cases, but it would work in other cases. 15:59:48 Unfortunately the typical benefit of static linking (only links what you need) doesn't really help there because (1) there's not that many separate components to WebKit from an app point of view and (2) they probably don't separate their object files properly because that would be horrific in C++. 16:00:33 Gregor: Honestly I'm *actually* a total dynamic linking fan, it's just that Unix fucks it up like everything :P 16:00:49 I like static linking on Unix purely because it's less of a headache. 16:01:02 Gregor, OBLISK? 16:01:09 elliott: And you prefer what, PE/COFF .dlls? :P 16:01:20 Vorpal: A portable appdir system I made once a long long time ago. 16:01:38 heh 16:02:33 Gregor: I prefer a late-bound object (FSVO 〃) ecosystem X-D 16:02:41 elliott, you could do "only links what you need" with dynamic linking too. /lib/libc/printf.so eh? 16:03:16 Sweet, Unicode has mutton spaces. 16:03:26 Gregor, how does webkit compare to boost on that system? 16:03:40 elliott, what on earth is a "mutton space"? 16:04:14 Vorpal: a mutton space. 16:04:19 Define "boost" 16:04:23 Boost doesn't have all that many object files 16:04:25 It's mostly headers :P 16:04:30 hm true 16:04:46 C++ libraries can only be statically linked because of templates, pretty much... statically source-linked. With headers. 16:04:53 (Template-based C++ libraries, that is.) 16:05:07 elliott, it does have the longest symbols names on my system though (both when mangled and unmangled) 16:05:23 it does have a few .so 16:07:09 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:07:59 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:08:40 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:08:47 New estimate for APNIC depletion: Friday 15th April. 16:09:33 fun 16:09:57 Ilari, what happens then? Some special rule for last block? 16:10:08 Slow week: 0.33 blocks. 16:10:26 Yes. 16:12:47 It seems that slow and fast weeks alternate. Week before this used about 0.56 blocks. 16:13:28 And in alternation, next week would be "fast", depling APNIC. 16:13:35 *depleting 16:14:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:14:16 Phew, for a moment I thought "depling" was some sort of new hip Internet slang for depletion-in-the-context-of-IPv4. 16:14:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:18:39 15:58:24: elliott, I have an idea. It has probably been thought of before. On-the-fly static linking. (Probably with some OS-managed caching though) 16:18:39 aka... 16:18:41 dynamic linking? 16:20:20 elliott, not quite. 16:20:29 -!- cheater00 has joined. 16:20:49 elliott, the dynamic linker (ld.so) works quite differently from the static linker (ld) 16:21:08 this would however work better with byte code I think 16:21:32 elliott, what does smalltalk do? I'm not sure how to classify it 16:22:40 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:30:12 Logspace: /9.217. Binary Decomposition: /10+/11+/13+/14+/15+/20+/21+/23. 16:32:44 -!- variable has changed nick to invariable. 16:37:31 Block counts (start at /10): 1, 2, 4, 9, 19, 38, 76, 163, 346, 756, 1586, 3309, 6749, 13738, 28186. 16:38:35 That is, 19 large blocks (256k) remain. 16:44:33 OK GUYS I HAVE COME UP WITH MY PRETENTIOUS LATIN MOTTO 16:44:47 CIRCVMDOR IDIOTAM 16:47:24 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:50:29 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:05:48 -!- elliott has joined. 17:05:55 Vorpal: Whaddya mean "what does smalltalk do"? 17:16:41 elliott, well, with it's world image thingy, does it link the executable code for running it at runtime? 17:17:04 I don't even know if they JIT, interpret or whatever 17:19:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:19:29 -!- marchdown has quit (Quit: marchdown). 17:20:34 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:20:53 Vorpal: When new code is encountered, the Smalltalk VM sends it to smalltalk.arpa:666, where it is received by the only living human who understands Smalltalk. He rewrites it in C, which is sent back to the VM. The VM compiles that C into an object file and dynamically loads that into its current environment. 17:21:18 Precisely. 17:21:32 17:16:41: elliott, well, with it's world image thingy, does it link the executable code for running it at runtime? 17:21:35 I still don't know what this means. 17:27:41 -!- joojii has joined. 17:27:57 joojii iiijijojojo 17:28:48 Gregor, aha. Well that explains why I never managed to get it working without an internet connection. 17:30:10 http://wikien4.appspot.com/wiki/Main_Page 17:30:26 Vorpal: Gonna clarify? :P 17:30:30 elliott: lolwut 17:30:38 Gregor: ELMERFUDDPEDIA 17:31:04 elliott: I like how it replaced "the" but not "The" 17:31:22 elliott, I'm not sure what I meant. But does smalltalk need a linker to execute? 17:31:43 (apart from, you know, for loading the virtual machine on the host os) 17:31:53 Vorpal: To execute what? The Smalltalk VM? A given method? 17:32:08 elliott, the latter I guess 17:35:10 Vorpal: Why would it? 17:35:24 Vorpal: Does Python require a linker for a method to execute "obj = Foo(); obj.bar()"? 17:37:54 elliott, hm, arguably you could say that it has a kind of linker for "import somemodule" 17:38:05 not really in the normal sense of linker though 17:38:44 Vorpal: Not really a linker; it just executes somemodule.py in the current global context, really. 17:43:44 Ilari: What TLDs have A records? 17:43:47 ai does, com doesn't. 17:44:32 elliott, hm, right. I guess it would be more of a linker (though still not very much) for something like java 17:44:51 elliott: IIRC, none anymore (but some IIRC did in the past). 17:44:52 Ilari: What TLDs have A records? --> none should 17:45:02 Ilari: do you mean the wildcard domains? 17:45:06 ai.86400INA209.59.119.34 17:45:09 Ilari: invariable: factually incorrect 17:45:13 IIRC n@ai is a guy called Ian :-) 17:45:25 my browser will refuse to go to http://ai/. but the IP works. 17:45:42 elliott, .ai, where is that? 17:45:44 elliott: strange. 17:45:48 elliott: How about http://ai./? 17:45:53 Ah, there are those (I looked it wrong). 17:45:59 That works. 17:46:11 I wonder how many email clients will send to n@ai. 17:46:14 ai. doesn't just have a A record, it has _MX_ record. 17:46:15 elliott, and lucky guy that Ian. 17:46:30 Right. Thus the email I guess :-P 17:46:40 Strange, dig(1) doesn't give me the NX record. 17:46:57 elliott: dig ai. IN MX 17:46:58 elliott: most email clients won't send to all RFC compliant email addresses 17:46:59 Meh, no AAAA records. 17:47:04 "foo@foo.com"@a 17:47:05 invariable: of course :P 17:47:07 :-) 17:47:09 Ilari: Write an complain ;) 17:47:12 invariable: You forgot (comments). 17:47:23 elliott, that gives me the MX record. Sure you remembered IN MX? 17:47:26 ;; ANSWER SECTION: 17:47:26 tk.300INA217.119.57.22 17:47:41 elliott: heh. by I stand by my none *should* comment before 17:47:44 * btw 17:47:50 invariable: YOU ARE NO FUN. 17:47:52 some *might have* but they shouldn't 17:48:06 Shut up, I want a three-character domain name :-D 17:48:08 ONE DAY 17:48:18 elliott: I WANT A GOOD DOMAIN NAME TOO 17:48:27 That doesn't have MX record, but A record is enough for SMTP to attempt delivery. 17:48:29 DON'T SAY SUCH THINGS THEN 17:48:32 elliott: most email clients won't send to all RFC compliant email addresses <-- pine/alpine/mutt can even handle comments with escaped end-comment symbols within. Way more than for example thunderbird can 17:48:43 invariable: SO DID I. 17:48:44 Vorpal: ofc. 17:48:50 Gregor: BUT YOU ARE GETTING ONE 17:48:51 invariable: We can't always get what we want. 17:48:59 Gregor: Waaaah 17:49:06 invariable: Dood, I didn't get libc.so 17:49:06 Gregor: you failed the libc.so auction? 17:49:12 invariable: Nope, it went to $1,000,000 which was 2 cents over his limit. 17:49:12 :-( 17:49:21 (His pocket money for the week) 17:49:38 Gregor: ouch. I wonder who did get it 17:49:56 invariable, I think he said it went to $1300 or something around there 17:50:02 which was still over his budget 17:50:05 wow! 17:50:09 :-\ 17:50:14 invariable, elliott was (of course) exaggerating 17:50:17 invariable: We will soon know who got it :P 17:50:21 I SAID $1,000,000 OK 17:50:25 THAT WAS THE PRICE 17:51:08 invariable: To elliott, $1,000 is effectively infinite money, and values greater than infinity are like matter at speeds faster than light; theoretically possible, but impossible to see or measure. 17:51:20 "greater than $1,000" that is, since $1,000 = infinity. 17:51:26 ua. doesn't have A/AAAA but has MX records. :-) 17:51:29 Gregor: Trololololololol 17:52:35 invariable: The same goes for ais btw. 17:52:51 :-\ saturation arithmetic 17:53:20 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:53:28 (Gregor is rationalising away anyone who tells him that spending $800 on a domain isn't worth it) 17:53:32 Trololololololol 17:53:45 Gregor, I like that explanation! 17:53:54 (wait, did I typo that?) 17:53:59 * invariable is away 17:54:05 YOU CANNOT ESCAPE 17:54:08 invariable, you are? 17:54:52 invariable, if you are away, how can you possibly say that? Or did you use a timer to cause your irc client to say that after you left? 17:55:25 He's locked in a matrix of solidity. He cannot respond. 17:55:34 ah 18:00:03 How about $75 for early access to a game and dev tools for it? 18:00:54 Sgeo: what 18:01:18 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc I want the $75 level 18:02:44 Sgeo, did you see your section of the List of Impossible Things. 18:02:51 I was thinking of expanding it. 18:03:05 I paid for something! 18:03:06 ? 18:03:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:03:21 I succeeded at something! 18:03:22 "Note that NestedVM uses GCC 3.3.6, which will not compile under GCC 4.1 or later." 18:03:34 I eagerly await the day where the only thing that compile a given gcc version is that gcc version. 18:03:39 Phantom_Hoover, yes, but would "I paid for something!" be the expansion? 18:03:48 Sgeo, dunno. 18:03:55 You have moneys, don't you? 18:04:05 Hard to access monies 18:04:12 Phantom_Hoover: But but he'd have to ask his father 18:04:25 If the word "dad" appears in the reason for that I am coming to America. 18:04:29 And killing him. 18:04:33 Oh, wait, no. 18:05:20 elliott, hm, arguably you could say that it has a kind of linker for "import somemodule" 18:05:32 Hey cpressey. For all intensive purposes they will hopefully take for granite the peek affect on our moral of loosing there free rain over how we will be faring after pouring over the data which was delivered to late. 18:05:41 I'm being dragged off to Italy, then I have to crash that LW meeting. 18:05:49 Phantom_Hoover: YOU FOOL 18:05:51 cpressey, I forgot that python actually ran code in the module, if you have any outside functions 18:05:52 DON'T MENTION IT IN A PUBLIC CHANNEL 18:05:52 Or you could say it has some kind of linker for "foo.bar" 18:05:54 OK 18:05:56 FINE 18:05:56 ELIEZER YUDKOWSKY KNOWS ALL 18:05:57 cpressey, so scratch that 18:06:04 I AM SORRY I SUCK AT THIS SORT OF THING 18:06:14 wait what 18:06:18 cpressey: NOTHING 18:06:18 HAPPENED 18:06:24 DID I MENTION ALL THE THINGS ME AND EHIRD BLEW UP 18:06:26 IN MC 18:07:05 please don't 18:07:13 ac. has A, ai. has A/MX, as. has MX, bi. has A, bj. has MX, cf. has MX, cm. has A, dj. has MX, dk. has A, dm. has MX, gg. has A, gp. has MX, gt. has MX, hk. has A, hr. has MX, io. has A/MX, je. has A, kh. has MX, km. has MX, lk. has MX, 18:07:22 mh. has MX, mq. has MX, ne. has MX, pa. has MX, ph. has A, pn. has A, sh. has A, td. has A, tk. has A, tm. has A, to. has A, tt. has MX, ua. has MX, uz. has A, va. has MX, ws. has A/MX, xn--o3cw4h. has A and ye. has MX. 18:07:37 No AAAA records. :-/ 18:08:05 lol at the xn- one 18:08:16 that must be a IDN one, right? 18:08:19 Yeah. 18:08:19 for which country 18:08:23 lol @ .bi 18:08:29 Time to buy porn.bi 18:08:35 (Probably owned :P ) 18:08:39 Gregor: Also bj 18:08:43 Thailand apparently. 18:08:46 free.bj 18:09:04 http://bi./ Bisexuality: It works! 18:09:12 elliott: I looked them up on Wikipedia, .bj isn't available to just anyone :P 18:09:24 elliott: BAHAHAHAHA 18:09:25 YES 18:09:37 Ilari, what about TXT records? Does any have that? 18:09:43 When googling for ".bj": 18:09:45 How To Give a Good BJ 18:09:45 5 min - 14 May 2008 18:09:45 howcast.com 18:09:52 WHY DOES THIS EXIST 18:10:04 I saw some, including URLs, SPF records and general text. 18:10:06 Domain names that: 18:10:07 are composed of a single nature; 18:10:07 are composed of two letters only; 18:10:07 begin or end with an indent “-”; or 18:10:07 are of a length greater than 255 characters (or 63 by under field) 18:10:09 cannot be recorded. 18:10:15 What a really awkward paragraph 18:10:28 Ilari: Now curl(1) all the domains with As, and filter out all the no-responses and "It works!"s :P 18:10:42 elliott, where is that from? 18:11:21 elliott, I think some redirects to the nic 18:12:15 Quite many TLDs have MX records. Wonder how many places would reject those addresses. :-) 18:26:43 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:28:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:28:52 hi oerjan 18:28:55 you are cpressey 18:29:48 i am? 18:30:51 Yes. 18:30:56 Science confirms it. 18:31:05 * cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving) 18:31:06 * oerjan (oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric 18:31:11 New Impossible Thing: 18:31:17 I was about to say "WORLD'S QUICKEST SEX CHANGE" 18:31:20 then I was like... wait... what? 18:31:28 apparently my brain knows something about cpressey and/or oerjan that I don't 18:31:37 QUICK I NEED MORE 18:31:45 yes ok i will use my operator powers to remove trolls. 18:31:45 Puns are overrated 18:31:54 *! 18:32:03 oh yeah that one too 18:32:15 douchebag oerjan 18:32:17 BANS ELLIOTT 18:32:17 18:32:20 DOESN'T BAN ANYONE WHO ISN'T ELLIOTT 18:32:33 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 18:32:35 elliott: YOU ARE NOT BANNED SHUTUP 18:32:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:32:44 oerjan: Shut up about banning! 18:32:44 (SHUTUP on the other hand is banned) 18:33:29 also, antisomething 18:33:37 antiwhat 18:34:02 antioptbot 18:34:07 oh right 18:35:24 Hmm, Neil Gaiman's episode of Doctor Who is going to be called "The Doctor's Wife". 18:35:32 My fanwank detector is going off. 18:37:12 Phantom_Hoover, To add to Gregor's list: lifthrasiir used to talk. mycroftiv talks sometimes, but rarely. sebbu I remember talking too. 18:37:18 mtve talked the other day 18:37:44 oerjan, WHY IS SHUTUP BANNED 18:38:01 Phantom_Hoover, hm. But isn't Neil Gaiman competent? 18:38:08 because he didn't ? 18:38:10 mainly so the whole channel won't be spammed by elliott trying to annoy Sgeo 18:38:44 Vorpal, he is, but remember that he'll still have to work it into whatever stupid story arc they have. 18:39:03 Phantom_Hoover, hm okay 18:39:08 (I'm seriously wondering how Doctor Who is going to keep up the endless escalation of series finale threats.) 18:39:28 Phantom_Hoover, well, they still have a handful of doctors to go, right? 18:39:40 "FUTURE EARTH" "MODERN EARTH" "THE UNIVERSE" "REALITY ITSELF" "ERM... SAME AGAIN" "DITTO" 18:40:15 Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean, as cliff hangers or what? 18:40:22 Phantom_Hoover: hm there was a severe lack of Sgeo in that list. although he probably needs his own section. 18:40:38 oerjan, no there wasn't? 18:40:48 Are you looking at logs, or just scrollback? 18:40:52 Vorpal, I mean the inevitable and hammy as hell series finales. 18:40:55 oh wait 18:41:00 Phantom_Hoover, ah 18:41:25 Sgeo: i didn't see it because he took a break after it before all the others 18:41:52 "FUTURE EARTH" "MODERN EARTH" "THE UNIVERSE" "REALITY ITSELF" "ERM... SAME AGAIN" "DITTO" 18:41:58 Phantom_Hoover: well we could always revisit TIME ITSELF 18:42:03 oerjan, I think I kind of summed up most of the Sgeo ones 18:42:10 elliott, hmm, which one was TIME ITSELF? 18:42:24 Phantom_Hoover: The special. You know, with DEM GALLIFREY PEEPS. 18:42:28 Series 4 or the Year Of the Specials? 18:42:36 Year Of The Specials, then. 18:42:45 Phantom_Hoover, is "time itself" worse than "reality itself"? 18:42:59 Vorpal, it means that, like, time never happened. 18:43:11 I suppose I can work it into my "time is 2D" theory for Doctor Who. 18:43:32 clearly the next level up is _our_ reality; they need to burn down the bbc or something. 18:43:32 Phantom_Hoover, well, I'm having some trouble telling if time never happening or reality never happening is worst. 18:44:07 hah 18:44:30 Phantom_Hoover: Define "time is 2D". 18:44:41 CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. 18:44:45 elliott, rather than one time axis, you have 2, time and metatime. 18:44:56 18:39:28: Phantom_Hoover, well, they still have a handful of doctors to go, right? 18:45:02 "To go"? They have an infinite amount. 18:45:11 -!- augur has joined. 18:45:18 elliott: There's some quote somewhere about a maximum of 12, which they just surpassed. 18:45:22 Phantom_Hoover, they should have started smaller. Then they would have more time left. Like "Hyde Park itself", "London itself", "England itself", "UK itself", "Europe itself" and so on 18:45:26 Gregor, no they didn't. 18:45:31 They're on 11 out of 13. 18:45:46 Gregor: OH RIGHT, they're going to end a wildly popular 60s-onwards money-cow franchise... 18:45:57 Because of an easily handwaved-away limit. 18:46:10 ANYWAY I was explaining metatime. 18:46:10 elliott: This is one of these "some fan saw this somewhere" limit, not one of these "the show will actually end" limits :P 18:46:13 elliott, well they will have to do something about that limit. 18:46:16 "Thanks to the energy from the TARDIS, I can DOUBLE my regenerations! YOU WON'T WIN THIS TIME, DALEKS!!!!!!!" 18:46:29 Gregor, it's an official limit, actually. 18:46:39 But yeah, Doctor Who is horrific at internal consistency. 18:46:41 ANYWAY 18:46:44 An official limit that will stand until it is reached :P 18:46:49 Phantom_Hoover: Ohright; not twelve doctors, twelve regenerations. And I was off by one on which doctor we're on. 18:47:11 Right, so time, rather than being immutable, is mutable as metatime advances. 18:47:13 two off by one errors 18:47:20 CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. <-- hm, that sounds awesome, but would other people see me floating sideways (my time) 18:47:23 That's a terrible explanation, but it'll have to do. 18:47:36 and what if I bump into a wall then 18:47:46 Vorpal: Yup. But the time dimension as space is what makes it really wtfery :P 18:47:48 Basically, you go back in time and kill Hitler, you go forwards in metatime and the structure of time changes. 18:47:57 Vorpal: only if you actually move in the dimension that is _their_ time... 18:48:13 CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. 18:48:14 oerjan, err? 18:48:16 That would be cool btw. 18:48:19 I say cool, I mean horrifying. 18:48:23 Lovecraftian. 18:48:29 Metatime is advanced with time travel. 18:48:42 Phantom_Hoover: Isn't this just the standard "time changes have a timeline and so on recursively" thing? 18:48:43 ANYWAY, you can factor time vs. reality destruction into this. 18:48:51 elliott, no recursion. 18:48:53 Vorpal: if you don't move along _their_ time dimension, they'll see a long rod appear and disappear... 18:48:54 Well, standard in that I came up with it in about five seconds; maybe I'm just a genius. 18:49:04 Phantom_Hoover: Has to have recursion, or you can't change the metatimeline properly. 18:49:15 elliott, you can't change the metatimeline, that's the point. 18:49:17 Phantom_Hoover: And if there's no recursion, it's not 2D. It's just two layers. 18:49:22 Two lines, in other words. 18:49:32 ...no? 18:49:36 oerjan, I meant if I stand still (relative my own senses) I would still move along my own time axis. Which would be a space axis for everyone else. Right? 18:49:43 Well. 18:49:44 Sort of. 18:49:53 (Metatime can be discrete as well, though.) 18:50:00 (Not sure if that matters.) 18:50:31 So destroying reality at a point in time cuts everything further along the time axis out. 18:50:54 hence, doomsday devices are practical for every serious timetraveler? 18:50:54 Destroying time cuts off everything further along the metatime axis. 18:51:02 oerjan, so then, lets say I "drift" sideways according to what I just said, what would happen if I bump into a wall due to using this switching gadget inside a room. 18:51:05 Vorpal: yes. but if you are not moving, then you are not moving along the dimension that everyone _else_ sees as time, so you would only briefly appear and disappear 18:51:24 Vorpal, I FEEL FEYNMAN DIAGRAMS ARE RELEVANT HERE 18:51:32 oerjan, I was rather wondering what would happen to me if I hit that wall 18:51:34 Dammit why can't I draw in 3D 18:51:37 Or think in 4D 18:51:42 CURSE YOU EVOLUTION 18:51:49 Phantom_Hoover, I feel the same 18:51:54 Vorpal: i don't think physics has a ready-made explanation for this :D 18:52:03 oerjan, right 18:52:09 oerjan, also classical vs. quantum. 18:52:19 Classical is nicer so just use that. 18:52:24 maybe time would stop for me 18:52:45 Gregor: Can you make a simple 3D scene of like a simple room and some sphere walking along it 18:52:50 And then do the reorientation and make another video :P 18:52:57 It would be Lovecraftian. 18:52:58 No, you'd just... live sideways. 18:53:05 For a fraction of a second. 18:53:07 then this thing could be useful kind of. Put some hot food in the device, next to a wall. Perfectly preserved, and hot food, when you want it! 18:53:24 of course, it would be in the wrong time for you hm 18:53:25 (from the point of a still observer in both spaces) 18:53:29 (i.e. still in time for the second) 18:53:35 elliott: That could be part of a series of "training videos" for the device, so you can understand how to comprehend reoriented spacetime >: ) 18:53:41 Like, you'd turn on the device, there'd be a 2D slice of Vorpal going right across the universe changing constantly so it'd be more like some kind of carrot. 18:53:51 Gregor: This is seriously the stuff of nightmares. 18:54:06 Phantom_Hoover, hah 18:54:10 you would essentially consist of tachyons during this... 18:54:11 elliott, nah, it's quite simple. 18:54:18 Phantom_Hoover: Wait... 18:54:24 Even though you stayed still in time, you'd still be moving in space 18:54:24 oerjan, with the imaginary mass and all? 18:54:25 *space. 18:54:32 oerjan, wait, aren't they fictional thingies? 18:54:36 elliott, yeah, so the slice would zigzag. 18:54:41 Vorpal: They're immeasurable and unprovable. 18:54:43 Vorpal: they are _hypothetical_ thingies 18:54:45 Phantom_Hoover: No. You'd literally cover an entire plane of the universe. 18:54:45 I think. 18:54:47 oerjan, ah 18:54:49 Well. 18:54:51 elliott, yes, you would. 18:54:52 An entire... thick line. 18:54:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:54:56 Phantom_Hoover: THAT IS SO WEIRD 18:55:00 *AWESOME 18:55:10 elliott: If you don't remain reoriented forever, you would cover a limited space. 18:55:15 elliott, how do you mean? 18:55:21 Define "forever" 18:55:23 And "remain" 18:55:28 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined. 18:55:36 ZOMGMODULES: hi, we're discussing existential horrors. 18:55:43 elliott, you turn the device on. A second later, you turn it off. 18:55:55 elliott: Presumably the machine will allow you to reorient yourself normally after some amount of time (space) spent reoriented. 18:56:00 There's a you-shaped tunnel across a lightsecond of space lasting for a nanosecond. 18:56:01 Phantom_Hoover: So, a (x|y|z)-second later 18:56:05 Rather than a t-second later 18:56:05 you do the hokey-pokey and you shake it all about 18:56:08 t being the usual time action 18:56:11 *axis 18:56:13 Well, a few nanosecond. 18:56:16 *nanoseconds 18:56:18 Uhh, no nanoseconds. 18:56:20 It would be one Planck time. 18:56:22 Ohwait 18:56:25 You're not infinitely thin 18:56:34 So yeah, depends on the scale :P 18:56:35 this doesn't sound that horror to me 18:56:40 No, since it's the breadth of the area of effect over c. 18:56:43 It would be one your-thickness in seconds :P 18:56:47 We need a measure of meters per second. 18:56:48 ZOMGMODULES: CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. 18:56:53 ZOMGMODULES: It's pretty horrific. 18:57:02 Gregor, just use c to convert. 18:57:03 Who's CONSIDER? 18:57:06 note that a second is a considerable distance if you use the c=1 convention 18:57:07 Gregor: Let's just say that 1 second is 1 metre :P 18:57:18 That's so totally unjustifiable, but convenient. 18:57:18 Multiply times by c for distances, divide distances by c for times. 18:57:31 Well, OK, that works too. 18:57:32 IF WE SAY 1 SECOND IS 1 M WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A VIDEO OUT OF THIS 18:57:34 Not if we use c :P 18:57:38 *1 m 18:57:39 But lightspeed ends up with you in relativity hell ... 18:57:47 Relativity Hell, the best kind of hell. 18:57:56 Gregor, no, because you're dicking around with the fabric of space, not standard physics. 18:58:07 I think I'm going to curl up in a ball and cry. 18:58:09 so what direction does space move when it's time 18:58:21 So, wait. 18:58:25 Let's figure out a standard reorientation. 18:58:28 It's basically lightspeed travel for you, teleportation for everyone else. 18:58:31 Well, using c. 18:58:33 When reoriented, what axis is time? 18:58:38 In the normal universe, the time-axis is t. 18:58:40 elliott, device points forward. 18:58:45 In the reoriented universe, the time-axis is (x|y|z). 18:58:46 Time is flipped in that direction. 18:58:50 time is forward, i like that 18:58:50 Let's just pick one for convenience >_< 18:58:53 OOPS 18:58:53 one issue. Can one of you tell me where the current x axis points 18:58:56 -!- ZOMGMODULES has quit (Client Quit). 18:58:59 ... 18:58:59 in reality 18:59:00 lol boss 18:59:04 (I AM GUESSING) 18:59:12 GALILEAN INVARIANCE IS FOR PUSSIES 18:59:23 Now there's a sentiment I can get behind 18:59:35 Well, that's not really Galilean invariance, it's relativity. 18:59:43 Phantom_Hoover, well it would kind of matter if you are trying to work out which plane you are spread out over as you said above 18:59:55 I wish I could, like, draw with my brain. 19:00:22 (BONUS OF THE VERSION WITH C AS THE CONVERSION FACTOR: you have FTL travel as a result.) 19:00:34 * Sgeo stabs Phantom_Hoover in the head 19:00:40 Lovely. 19:00:46 with a pencil 19:00:50 Clearly he went mad at our crazy physics skills. 19:00:55 Thanks for the detail. 19:01:18 (The FTL is like FTL in Freefall, though: from your perspective you travel at precisely c.) 19:01:23 Phantom_Hoover, you said you wanted to draw with your brain, didn't you? 19:01:35 -_- 19:02:24 Who wanted to draw it? 19:02:39 (/animate/whatever) 19:03:20 Now that elliott mentioned it, I would like to make an animation of it :P 19:03:33 With a raytracer would be ideal :P 19:03:34 Gregor, right, OK, so: 19:03:44 But maybe an animation for a 3D (2 physical D + time) universe rather than 4D. 19:03:44 You have a device which points forward. 19:03:45 ALSO: Colour everything in the room uniquely. 19:03:49 Reflect those colours in the reoriented universe. 19:03:55 This is unrealistic, but waaay less of a pain to visualise. 19:03:57 There's a 2x2x2m cube around if converted. 19:04:00 (In reality, light would... what the fuck WOULD light do?) 19:04:01 You have something inside. 19:04:02 (I have no fucking idea.) 19:04:11 elliott: FUCKFUCKFUCKNO 19:04:14 elliott, this is Abstract Classical Space. 19:04:19 It Just Works. 19:04:31 Gregor: :D 19:04:35 WHAT WOULD LIGHT DOOOOO 19:05:01 elliott, since this is Abstract Classical Space, you just magically perceive everything as it is.l 19:05:10 elliott, as far as I remember, from the view of a photon, time stands still? 19:05:12 I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT WOULD DO IRL 19:05:37 elliott, IRL we don't actually know how the universe works so you can't, no. 19:05:47 ... 19:05:53 I'm just asking how light would move about in such a reorientation. 19:05:54 In the part of real life where you have a Gregor's Spaciotemporal Reorientation Machine 19:06:03 i.e. what the fuck shit would look like. 19:06:09 Just assume boring non-relativistic universe :P 19:06:15 elliott, atoms make no sense when flipped, so I have no idea. 19:06:29 Phantom_Hoover: Assume it's done at the atom level >_< 19:06:37 As in, atoms are left intact themselves. 19:06:41 But is time continuous? 19:06:46 I'm pretty sure it's calculable, but not by our pathetic human minds. 19:06:50 As continuous as matters 19:06:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:06:58 (In the same sense that space is continuous) 19:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:07:15 I might actually /write/ a photon tracer to generate this scene, just to be able to follow photons in all four dimensions ... 19:07:32 Do it! Do it1 19:07:35 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:07:44 Gregor: I approve so hard 19:07:56 Well, not tonight. OOPSLA deadline tonight :P 19:07:57 Gregor: ...you know, this could make an AWESOME game premise. 19:08:05 *brain axplote* 19:08:05 Design landscapes that are only partially navigable in a single orientation. 19:08:11 elliott, YES. YES IT COULD. 19:08:11 And have full rotations, so it's not just two to pick from. 19:08:19 I WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME RIGHT NOW 19:08:31 Wait, this is just Adanaxis with time. 19:08:34 Phantom_Hoover: Gregor: WE HAVE TO MAKE IT FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF 19:08:37 HMM THAT ACTUALLY SOUNDS COOL 19:08:37 NO it's better than that 19:08:41 Adanaxis doesn't also rotate your VIEW 19:08:47 And also it could be like a PLATFORMER 19:08:52 So you could JUMP ... through TIME 19:09:12 Well, OK, just have only 90° rotations in time. 19:10:12 Proposition: A game with this premise, but 2D space, just to make it a tidbit less OH GOD WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, or at least to make it more achievable in the short term :P 19:10:44 Gregor, do you show the time dimension? 19:10:44 Gregor: Well okay ;P 19:10:45 *:P 19:10:57 Phantom_Hoover: When you've reoriented yourself in it. 19:10:58 Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, in normal play, the time dimension is shown by... time passing :P 19:10:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:11:05 Right. 19:11:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:11:07 WHAT WOULD LIGHT DOOOOO <-- just use logic and the bible (John 8:12) to reduce this to "What would Jesus dooooo". 19:11:07 OMGG 19:11:09 The game needs enemies. 19:11:12 That can also reorient. 19:11:21 elliott: ONE MIND-BOGGLING STEP AT A TIME 19:11:24 You're fightin' something and suddenly it reorients and WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING 19:11:35 oerjan: logic and the bible, two great tastes that taste great together 19:11:52 elliott, what if someone flies sideways to time for ages and ages. 19:11:57 Gregor: Oh god we have to make this. This is an even better idea than Asteroids 2. 19:11:59 You have to compute all that 19:12:02 Phantom_Hoover: I DON'T KNOW, WHAT WOULD THAT EVEN IMPLY 19:12:30 elliott, it implies you have a potentially infinite amount of processing for each interval of game time. 19:12:39 It gets even *worse* if you reorient yourself. 19:12:42 Phantom_Hoover: Not if time and space are discrete. 19:12:46 On Saturday I will begin work on the engine. It's definitely doable, but not simple :P 19:12:59 Oh, you mean, if something kept going in a direction forever? 19:13:07 Well, just make the AI not do that X-D 19:13:08 Great, my brain is starting to melt too. 19:13:20 For a two-player game, just stop someone dwelling in reoriented-ville for too long. 19:13:24 Gaah okay this is hurting my brain. 19:13:29 Gregor: Just... do a photon tracer to start with X-D 19:13:31 Phantom_Hoover, elliott: this sounds a bit like TRDS for a game? 19:13:43 Gregor: Let's figure out how this WORKS before trying to make a game engine that can do it :P 19:14:05 Erm, hang on. 19:14:16 What if you reorient your time direction to go backwards. 19:14:30 what 19:14:41 OK, just limit it to horizontal. 19:15:06 this concept is so done to death 19:15:10 OK, RIGHT. 19:15:10 what 19:15:16 The problem is basically the same problem with every other time travelling game. 19:15:23 once you have backwards time things tend to get at _least_ PSPACE complete 19:15:25 If someone (= an AI) goes back in time, you can't show that to someone who's already further on in time. 19:15:34 So you have to... shove them back in time somehow. 19:15:35 oerjan, wonderful 19:15:51 I have some glimmerings of workability. 19:15:59 Vorpal: not for implementing it... 19:16:02 DAMMIT WHY DO THESE THINGS ALWAYS HAPPEN THE DAY BEFORE I GO ON HOLIDAY 19:16:09 Phantom_Hoover: THINK ABOUT IT IN VENICE 19:16:30 BUT YOU WON'T CARE WHEN I COME BACK. 19:16:30 oerjan, duh, do you think I was serious? 19:16:58 Phantom_Hoover: omg it is _happening_... 19:17:04 elliott, wait, if something goes back in time, shouldn't you have showed it the first time? Or it won't be logically consistent 19:17:07 oerjan: wat 19:17:10 oerjan, what? 19:17:27 Perhaps I take myself a bit too seriously! 19:17:35 oerjan, duh, do you think I was serious? 19:17:39 CLEARLY 19:17:53 EQUIVALENT 19:18:00 Yes, totally. 19:18:02 elliott, OK SO 19:18:03 Vorpal: if you go back in time, you will just be repeating what you already saw yourself do 19:18:10 YOU HAVE A FINITE VIEWSCREEN 19:18:14 as usual 19:18:15 10x10 metres. 19:18:23 oerjan, wait a second... How much of the time the past few years have you *not* realised when I joked? 19:18:25 SO YOU ONLY NEED TO KNOW 10 SECONDS INTO THE FUTURE 19:18:34 THAT MAKES IT SO MUCH EASIER 19:18:37 (And the past, but that's not really all that important.) 19:18:39 Vorpal: everyone knows you never joke, sheesh 19:18:40 Can we just talk about this in terms of blocks? 19:18:40 Not metres? 19:18:43 10x10 blocks. 19:18:47 One block is one second let's say for now. 19:18:52 Well, OK. 19:18:55 so each game is 10 seconds? 19:18:57 Vorpal: if you go back in time, you will just be repeating what you already saw yourself do <-- I meant if an enemy goes back in time, then the player should have seen that when he arrived at that time originally 19:18:59 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:19:07 which would require real world time travel 19:19:09 clearly 19:19:25 Erm, wait. 19:19:27 elliott, actually, lets just use IOT to implement this 19:19:34 Ideally, you should be able to run at one block per second :P 19:19:36 SYMMETRY 19:19:37 You can't see what you'll do in the future, so... 19:19:40 Yeah. 19:19:46 This requires precognition. 19:19:52 Or boring getout clauses. 19:19:57 Gregor: DO NOT LISTEN TO PH 19:19:59 PHOTON TRACER 19:20:00 PHOTON TRACER 19:20:00 PHOTON TRACER 19:20:12 Phantom_Hoover, or making the player act in a sort of meta-time 19:20:21 IOT (ContT []) 19:20:23 elliott, you still need precognition. 19:20:28 SHUT 19:20:29 THE FUCK 19:20:30 UP 19:20:47 Phantom_Hoover, meta time for the player might work, no? 19:20:53 Erm, wait, it might... 19:20:58 BRAIN HURTING AGAIN. 19:21:07 1.34 MiB/s. 19:21:12 IT ONLY LASTED FOR A SECOND 19:21:14 BUT THAT SECOND WAS GLORIOUS 19:21:14 Phantom_Hoover, of course, you could argue that as well would be a getout clause. 19:21:27 1.77 :| 19:21:36 like i'm in sweden-- 19:21:53 elliott, if that is download... common residential connections tend to burst a bit at the start sometimes 19:21:54 Gregor: So btw, if you ever do something like http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, I'll rip your soul out 19:22:03 Every pre-2011 clog link is now broken. 19:22:09 And only accessible through a zip file linked to in the header. 19:22:39 Ah, right. 19:22:41 elliott, I mean, rsync reported it transferred a tiny file at 105 MByte/s, which is impossible since it was sent over 100 Mbit ethernet. 19:23:02 elliott, probably due to NIC buffering 19:23:04 or something 19:23:13 Erm. 19:23:18 Brain hurting again. 19:23:37 (A 3D drawing board would really be nice now.) 19:24:10 Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like you need the Glove Box. 19:24:15 Phantom_Hoover, might be a bit hard to reach around in it 19:24:20 elliott, what is that 19:25:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:25:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:25:59 OK, precognition is necessary. 19:26:07 UNLESS—erm, no. 19:26:08 Phantom_Hoover: SHADDAP 19:26:12 oerjan: wow, you have an identd! 19:26:29 hm? 19:26:42 (oerjan@ 19:26:44 not ~oerjan 19:26:45 FANSCHY 19:27:11 ah. 19:27:53 elliott: If it's all database-oriented, then that makes no sense anyway. 19:28:02 well tyrell _is_ a multiuser machine. 19:28:09 Gregor: ??? 19:28:14 Gregor: Oh, right. 19:28:18 Gregor: But the URLs still matter :P 19:28:23 As an interface. 19:28:25 elliott: Fair 'nuff. 19:28:57 Gregor: I wonder if it's because clog is early-2000s technology and is running on a machine with a 1 gig disk :P 19:29:07 8-D 19:29:10 And the logs together are, like, 400 megs! 19:29:15 (I figure #haskell is pretty high-traffic) 19:29:34 elliott, come on. Even my first model ibook (early-2000s) had a whopping 3.2 GB HDD 19:29:45 Gregor: btw I'm still doing ch2 stuff, just been "busy" past few days :P 19:30:02 elliott: Perfectly understandable, my typical impatience is tempered by my own deadlines. 19:30:04 16:44:33: OK GUYS I HAVE COME UP WITH MY PRETENTIOUS LATIN MOTTO 19:30:07 that is latin? 19:30:10 16:44:47: CIRCVMDOR IDIOTAM 19:30:20 Yes. 19:30:25 I think so, anyway. 19:30:31 Does it mean "I'm an idiot"? 19:30:36 oh wait DOR is passive of DO 19:31:21 STULTUS EGO 19:32:32 "i am given around, an idiot"? 19:33:44 oerjan, hmm, I mustn't have been thorough enough in checking which of the 15 or so words I found was equivalent to "surround". 19:34:15 Oh, of course, circumvenio. 19:34:18 actually i'm looking up circumdo now 19:34:30 Dammit I also forgot to pluralise "idiot". 19:34:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:34:50 :D 19:34:51 Stultus ego ergo amo. <-- I am now officially a dramatic poet. Moneys plz kthx. 19:34:57 "CIRCVMVENIOR IDIOTAS" 19:35:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:35:10 Phantom_Hoover: i vaguely recall it should be IDIOTIS 19:35:21 what's amo 19:35:24 oerjan, it's idiota, so I assumed it was first declension. 19:35:27 (ablative for the changed subject of a passive noun) 19:35:28 elliott, "I love". 19:35:30 oh rite 19:35:34 As in "amo amas amat". 19:35:38 i'm an idiot so i love people? 19:35:43 well, or just, so i love 19:35:53 Phantom_Hoover: it may well be but it's not supposed to be accusative 19:35:54 oerjan, ...it is? 19:35:56 Erm, OK. 19:36:04 iirc, it's been a long time 19:36:27 note how it's not "I am surrounded idiots" in english either 19:36:39 Yeah, OK. 19:36:49 It is if you just are surrounded idiots. 19:36:59 I, an individual, am a group of idiots who are surrounded. 19:36:59 Gregor: SOMEWHAT UNLIKELY 19:37:02 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:37:21 Yeah, OK, "CIRCVUMVENIOR IDIOTIS" 19:37:33 Latin grammar looks HIGHLY complicated 19:37:36 now you need a crest 19:37:43 Vorpal, not really. 19:38:09 Phantom_Hoover, the discussion above reminds me of that scene in Life of Brian... 19:38:11 Well, the whole "word order doesn't indicate structure" thing... 19:38:39 Phantom_Hoover: circumdo apparently also can mean surround 19:38:52 Hmm, which sounds better. 19:39:51 idiotis is a bad word 19:42:38 Google sez: "KNOW-NOTHING CIRCVUMVENIOR" 19:42:58 X-D 19:43:08 19:33, 8 April 2011 Wizard191 (talk | contribs) marked Flash butt welding patrolled (automatic) ‎ 19:43:10 Geeze Phantom_Hoover, you're such a know-nothing circumvenior. 19:45:01 Phantom_Hoover, you need to find out what would be the idiomatic way to say it 19:47:05 *idiotomatic 19:47:06 * elliott tries to get Google to translate to Latin correctly 19:47:50 what are 1 and 2? 19:48:17 oerjan: You know what they are X-P 19:48:25 ...i suppose. 19:48:44 well I came_1 is "veni" as usual, i guess. 19:48:54 I saw is "vidi" 19:49:01 Yeah, but all the things I can think of for _2 are passed through untranslated :P 19:49:14 Weird, WordNet lacks the verb form of _2 but has the relevantnoun. 19:49:16 *relevant noun. 19:49:32 Unless it's just stated so euphemistically that I can't find it when scanning. 19:49:42 elliott: It passes through "orgasm" as something that translates back as something like "had joy" :( 19:49:45 But then the noun definition uses "spermatozoa", so I don't expect so. 19:49:50 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 19:50:22 oerjan: what's the past tense of iaculemur? 19:50:26 that might be the noun ejaculate, I suppose 19:50:30 *noun "ejaculate" 19:50:58 elliott: Google suggests that it's literally "throw" 19:51:03 X-D 19:51:19 iacio? 19:51:21 The Romans, they did not speak of such things :P 19:51:26 Yeah, that's just "throw". 19:51:26 Phantom_Hoover: Figure it out or I'll have to trawl through and extensively quote dirty Latin poetry. 19:51:36 Gregor: HA! 19:51:54 Gregor: Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. 19:52:00 [etc.] 19:52:21 Unfortunately that poem does not mention orgasming at all. 19:52:35 is iaculemur actually a word? 19:52:50 "stuff your gobs"...? 19:53:04 Gregor: "I will sodomize you and face-fuck you" 19:53:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16 19:53:26 elliott: Google sez "I'll bugger you and stuff your gobs", which is right up 'til that 'and' :P 19:53:31 Gregor: Best translation ever. 19:54:03 eiaculo is italian, but i'm not sure if it is latin... 19:54:16 "This remarkable poem contains a cogent piece of literary criticism, bracketed between a shocking first and last line which you can translate for youself. (It's not that I shrink from obscenity, but you will have to substitute some substitute phrases in English to get the meaning right.) " 19:54:17 Suuuure 19:54:19 *)" 19:54:38 not in boys, but in those hairy 19:54:38 guys who have difficulty moving their limbs. 19:54:38 --Google 19:54:47 "difficulty moving my limb": best euphemism ever 19:54:53 elliott, oh, yeah, Catullus. 19:54:59 http://rudy.negenborn.net/catullus/text2/e16.htm 19:55:00 "I don't say in boys but in those hairy 19:55:00 Victims of lumbar sclerosis." 19:55:05 WORST TRANSLATION OF THAT LINE EVER 19:55:22 Some of his mopier poems are in the Standard Grade Latin exam. 19:55:35 elliott, you know how dwarf fortress does detailed combat reports? I found (I finally think I figured out the utterly complex military system) that it does the same for training (in case of sparring). 19:55:59 BUT 19:56:01 While googling for it 19:56:06 I found this! http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2334197912&topic=3371 19:56:07 elliott, "pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo" is now my favourite Latin phrase. 19:56:09 SOMEONE TRANSLATE IT TO LATIN 19:56:10 NOW 19:56:13 Phantom_Hoover: Is it your new motto? 19:56:23 No. 19:56:24 HOOVER HEAVY INDUSTRIES - "PEDICABO" EGO VOS ET IRRUMABO 19:56:27 *move that quote 19:56:34 I found this! http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2334197912&topic=3371 19:56:38 GET TRANSLATING THE WORST THING EVER PEOPLE 19:56:44 Also enjoy the Icelandic interface 19:56:49 I don't know why Google found it with the Icelandic interface 19:56:52 BUT THAT'S HOW IT IS 19:57:03 "Latin is an exact language for obscene acts," 19:57:06 XD 19:57:26 SRSLY THOUGH 19:57:36 Someone translate came(v.) to Latin. 19:57:39 "The Axe Lord hacks The militia captain in the left hand with her ≡steel battle axe≡, lightly tapping the target!" <-- this sounds a bit... strange. 19:58:17 (come on, why don't they use the training weapons which made..., yes df has separate training weapons) 19:58:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:28 Someone translate came(v.) to Latin. <-- wiktionary claims a translation of cum -> eiaculare, but the latter has no latin in its page 19:59:45 Ugh. 19:59:47 Fucking Latin. 19:59:51 "clintonize" 19:59:54 ... 19:59:56 ##latin 19:59:59 LET'S DO THIS 19:59:59 *Pedicabo Latin 20:00:13 i suppose we could just assume it works as an ordinary -a verb, in which case it's eiaculavi 20:00:18 Phantom_Hoover: wait 20:00:20 i'll write the message 20:00:29 I'm afeared :P 20:00:34 "What's the Latin for came (past tense of verb, i.e. to ejaculate)?" 20:00:37 DOES THAT LOOK GOOD 20:00:54 I would rephrase it to put the proper form first :P 20:01:02 Gregor: You do it :P 20:01:05 NO U 20:01:10 elliott, erm, hang on, I'm trying to pluralise pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. 20:01:11 I'm writing awesome games in my head! 20:01:14 Gregor: I WANT to shock them half-way through! 20:01:20 OH WELL HERE GOES 20:01:38 Oh, it is already plural 20:01:43 Gregor: The very best entry in the REORIENT series will be the one where we take it to 4D. 20:01:45 That is, 4D + time. 20:01:53 With ANY rotation. 20:01:55 elliott: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 20:02:05 Phantom_Hoover: STOP RUINING IT 20:02:14 elliott: First goal: 2D+T, only X and T are reorientable, and only at 90 20:02:26 Gregor: No, first goal: 3D+T, photon tracer :P 20:02:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:02:30 -> Animation 20:02:40 I don't think any of us understand this nearly enough to design a game yet X-D 20:02:41 elliott: That's, I think, even more of a PITA >_> 20:02:42 elliott: my best guess so far is "eiaculavi", anyhow 20:02:46 elliott: Err, that's true. 20:02:49 Gregor: Yes, but it will be useful throughout :P 20:03:12 elliott: First goal: 2D+T, only X and T are reorientable, and only at 90° 20:03:13 No. 20:03:23 Only to 90°. 20:03:25 Indeed no, photon tracer :P 20:03:26 There's a difference. 20:03:32 Your mom is a difference. 20:03:38 oh sckn444p 20:04:03 elliott: also that's using the same tense as veni and vidi from the other famous quotation, latin has a bit of a different division between the past tenses 20:04:11 So what is sex in Latin? We could check on Vicipædia. 20:04:19 ...oh god "vici"pædia 20:04:21 worst pun ever 20:04:24 so that's actually perfect tense 20:04:32 It's actually pronounced "Wikipedia" X-D 20:04:49 oerjan: So "Veni, vidi, eiaculavi"? 20:05:15 i think eiaculavi is the first one 20:05:34 Phantom_Hoover: Really, Catullus 16 is not very obscene :P 20:05:39 elliott: yeah 20:06:03 elliott, well, except the first and last lines. 20:06:07 Phantom_Hoover: Mild :P 20:06:10 one of my guitar strings broke :( 20:06:23 "Oh noes, you're going to have sex with me unconsensually!!!!!" 20:06:34 There's not even any disembowelment. 20:06:42 it's probably the ancient latin equivalent of "fuck you assholes" 20:06:44 Pfft. 20:06:48 oerjan: again, mild 20:06:56 elliott, do you mean 'venio 4' ? 20:06:59 Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 20:07:00 elliott: i was trying to agree with you here 20:07:01 Isn't that just "I came" 20:07:05 Like 20:07:07 erm 20:07:08 *"came" 20:07:11 In the very mundane sense 20:07:15 venio is "i come" 20:07:18 elliott, possible that Latin had the double meaning as well. 20:07:31 I doubt it. 20:07:35 Phantom_Hoover: darn how boring :D 20:07:37 AFAIK that's a recent phenomenon. 20:07:46 venio (4) presumably meaning the 4th definition. 20:07:55 I'm asking the question anyway, to serve as a... discrete... way of mentioning that I meant the other kind. :P 20:08:00 Or... wait, that could just be the conjugation. 20:08:02 Wow this is awkward 8-D 20:08:06 *8D 20:08:09 8-D looks weird. 20:08:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Royal_Bank_of_Canada&diff=prev&oldid=423066518 20:08:22 bAndie9100: ah, does Latin have the same double-meaning? 20:08:22 double meaning? what do you count? 20:08:24 yeah venio is 4th conjugation 20:08:25 oerjan: uhh write my response for me 20:08:36 That'll be it, then. 20:08:46 I DID include "to ejaculate" in my original message :P 20:09:10 Phantom_Hoover: YOU'RE SO EMBARRASSING 20:09:16 Find some way to pretend we didn't come from the same place. 20:09:27 oerjan: mommy, PH is being awfully direct to strangers. 20:09:38 "EJACULATE, ORGASM, CUM! Pedicabo ergo SOMETHING!" 20:09:47 Gregor: ...<3 20:09:54 PEDICABO ERGO SOMETHING 20:09:56 My new motto. 20:10:10 Phantom_Hoover: YOU SHUT THE POOR INNOCENT UP 20:10:20 HE'S GOING TO KILL US FOR SHITTING ON HIS BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE 20:10:40 elliott: tell him catullus already did that 20:10:53 this is like going into #mozart 20:10:54 and saying 20:10:55 hey 20:11:00 does anyone have a performance of Leck mich im Arsch 20:11:06 XD 20:11:46 oerjan: if you join, #esotericers will have a critical mass in ##latin, and I won't be so scared! 20:11:53 "I'll have you know I'm an OPERATOR in #esoteric!" 20:11:57 "HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ME LIKE THAT' 20:11:59 *" 20:12:03 -!- augur has joined. 20:12:25 elliott: but then _i_ would feel embarassed 20:12:35 :D 20:12:39 Wikipedia just gave me THE BEST BAND NAME: The Angry Young Popes 20:12:43 "Example: 20:12:44 Keep The Angry Young Popes are the best rock band in the world right now. – Superbestfan 02:02, 2 February 2002 (UTC)" 20:12:57 now what's _that_ in latin 20:12:57 oerjan: just join and talk about something that _isn't_ coming 20:13:13 "puer iratus popes" 20:13:14 ...i don't know enough latin to converse on that channel... 20:13:17 Is "popes" wrong :P 20:13:19 oerjan: Uhhh 20:13:24 oerjan: You don't have to talk IN Latin X-D 20:13:32 Or maybe you do! 20:13:33 hm iratus sounds right 20:13:48 oerjan: join and ask what "Angry young popes" is in Latin 20:13:50 FLAWLESS 20:14:00 we get an answer, you save embarrassment! 20:14:08 19:21, 8 April 2011 Alexf (talk | contribs) blocked Poopfriedrice (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ ({{uw-uhblock}}) 20:14:18 Irati juvenes papae maybe... 20:15:17 i'm not sure if i should use feminine suffixes because papa is -a stem or not because it's definitely a masculine referent but i lean toward the latter 20:16:21 ah wiktionary says masculine 20:17:12 there's a #mozart? disturbing 20:17:20 Irati iuvenes papae, then. 20:17:34 cpressey: no 20:17:53 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:18:26 -!- elliott has joined. 20:18:51 (puer means boy, not young) 20:19:50 -!- elliott has set topic: An unusually not mephitic forum that catches sufficiently "Hello world. Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:21:12 MEPHITICI NON SVMVS 20:21:20 omg yes translate our four mottos into latin 20:21:24 Catch sufficiently hello world. 20:21:27 An unusually not mephitic forum. 20:21:30 Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. 20:21:31 ^ latin nao 20:21:48 CARPE SUFFICIENTER AVE MUNDUS 20:21:50 "capite satis salve mundi'? 20:21:52 *mundi" 20:21:55 oerjan: ah, thanks 20:21:59 oh wait 20:22:00 satis is nicer, is that not valid there? 20:22:01 MUNDE 20:22:10 (should be vocative) 20:22:20 i don't know 20:22:23 "Non solita mephitic forum." ;; well, someone has to translate mephitic :-D 20:22:35 I guess "miasmic" would be the best path 20:22:44 "Non noxia solita forum."? 20:22:59 "Libenter clausum in soliditatem matrix" ;; this is probably so wrong 20:23:22 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:23:24 elliott: looks like satis could work 20:23:28 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 20:23:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:23:41 or wait hm 20:23:42 oerjan: WELL START TRANSLATING THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY LINE THEN ;D 20:23:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:23:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:24:00 yeah munde says wiktionary 20:24:09 argh 20:24:22 i never said i was good at latin vocabulary did i... 20:24:42 Phantom_Hoover: YOU HELP TOO 20:25:20 mephitic is already greco-latin, is it not? 20:25:34 maybe 20:25:42 mephitic or mephitical [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]. —adj. 1. poisonous; foul. 2. foul-smelling; putrid. [C17: from Late Latin mephīticus ... 20:25:51 so, what's the adjective form of mephiticus 20:26:01 Vorpal: you're a language. http://code.google.com/p/vorpalcode/ 20:26:01 it is an adjective 20:26:27 but to use with forum you should probably have -um 20:26:32 http://www.joystiq.com/2011/01/20/xbox-live-indie-gems-vorpal/ also a bullet hell game 20:26:34 thx google 20:27:25 Vorpal: your reference implementation is coded in C++ 20:27:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VORPAL 20:27:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:28:01 Vorpal & Wabe 20:28:01 copyright 2008 - University of Canterbury 20:28:01 all rights reserved - do not distribute 20:28:08 ... alright ... 20:28:13 Arvid Norlander likes to show people his "Vorpal blade" if you catch my drift 20:28:14 forum insolite non mephiticum 20:28:26 http://vorpal.livejournal.com/878513.html ;; picture of vorpal 20:28:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:29:11 -!- augur has joined. 20:29:14 http://vorpal.livejournal.com/profile 20:29:21 I'm gay. I love looking at guys, but I'm not obsessed with that fact (it's just one aspect of my personality) and while a lot of my friends are gay, I'm not really part of the "gay community". 20:29:21 [...] 20:29:21 I love to flirt with cute boys. It's fun! 20:29:21 I've been married to my hubby bonoboboy (Jeff) since May 2004, and no, it's not for the gay health insurance :D. 20:29:24 oh wait 20:29:25 I thought it said 20:29:26 "I'm not gay" 20:29:31 was gonna go on about how Vorpal was in denial and all 20:29:46 it should be illegal to write things that my brain could insert the word "not" in 20:29:57 I see no denial there :P 20:30:10 Gregor: I thought it said "I'm *not* gay" :P 20:30:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:30:35 Sgeo: please start being fascinated by the Vorpal language 20:30:45 What's the Vorpal language? 20:31:02 "I'm not gay, but I love staring at guys. I'm not gay, but I love flirting with cute boys ... for fun! I'm not gay, but I've been married to Jeff for seven years (for the insurance)." 20:31:04 Sgeo: http://code.google.com/p/vorpalcode/ 20:31:16 cpressey: sgeo started liking falcon a while back 20:31:18 did i mention? 20:31:29 Gregor: "I'm not gay, but I'm a Republican!" 20:31:58 Hey, it's fully possible for a guy to like guys and not be gay! 20:32:03 elliott: i remember 20:32:09 so falcon is a guy 20:32:19 really? i don't recall telling you 20:32:20 and maude is a girl. this is eminently logical 20:32:23 i guess you sensed it through the aether 20:32:30 i SEEM to remember 20:32:45 I vaguely recall cpressey being here 20:32:46 bonoboboy _certainly_ doesn't sound gay either... 20:33:24 * Sgeo WTFs at Vorpalcode 20:33:45 It lists goals... but um...none of those tell me what the damn thing actually is 20:34:20 I can vaguely guess that it's for a language.. but have only a vague understanding of what that language is supposed to be like 20:34:28 woo, i built vorpal 20:34:29 Event-driven OO 20:34:47 Oh durh 20:34:56 "Vorpal is a small scripting language written in C++" 20:35:02 libenter is an adverb not a verb... 20:35:23 woo, i ran the "memoized fibonacci" example 20:35:51 Sgeo: it feels like they're trying to do "Lua, but in C++" 20:35:58 ...why? 20:36:03 Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards. 20:36:22 Sgeo: BECAUSE WORLD NEEDS MORE LANGUAGES 20:36:24 That ENORMOUSLY simplifies the problem. 20:36:33 i guess 20:37:13 how do u open a pdf in leegnux 20:37:25 xdg-open 20:37:34 `addquote Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards. 20:37:37 354) Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards. 20:37:43 I hope that stripped out the control chars. 20:37:46 elliott: nope 20:37:51 Gregor: thx 20:37:51 fuck 20:37:53 fix it yourself 20:38:11 cpressey: Nobody seems to know about xdg-open for some reason :( 20:38:19 i pronounce it gnome-open 20:38:23 it's not as good as os x open though 20:38:29 Arvid Norlander likes to show people his "Vorpal blade" if you catch my drift <-- XD 20:38:36 vorpal reminds me more of plof 20:38:37 kinda 20:38:42 first 4 words in manual: "Vorpal is a embeddable 20:38:54 o.f('test', 3).print() 20:38:54 o['f']('test', 3).print() 20:38:55 or js 20:38:56 cpressey: ENGLISH FAIL 20:39:04 * Sgeo wants to aembed something 20:39:15 Gregor: from the UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY 20:39:30 cpressey: Canterbury, Saudi Arabia 20:39:39 cpressey, does that mean like lua? Or like bare bone C code? Very different meaning of embed there 20:39:55 "no operator precedence 20:40:06 sorry, i keep dropping my closequotes 20:40:16 Vorpal: like lua 20:40:45 also like lua in that their interpreter is small (ca. 3KLoc)... but it's in C++ 20:40:58 cpressey, "no operator precedence" works well in prefix/postfix (of course), but would be a PITA in infix 20:41:06 Vorpal: totally agreeds 20:41:28 Smalltalk has no operator precedence. 20:41:30 if you take away my operator precedence, just give me RPN or S-expression instead 20:41:32 cpressey, err "agreeds"? 20:41:36 fine 20:41:36 IIRC, Haskell has no operator precedence. 20:41:37 *agreed 20:41:43 Gregor: wrong 20:41:48 it has a full precedence system 20:41:51 and both associativities 20:42:01 and you can CUSTOMIZE it 20:42:03 Gregor, pretty sure you don't need to write (5 * 4) + 2 in haskell... 20:42:24 er... can you change the precedence of built-in operators in haskell? 20:42:34 i know you can define it for ones you define 20:42:42 um, "sort of." 20:42:59 What was I thinking about, not Haskell ... 20:43:08 J 20:43:16 Well, anyway, in Smalltalk operators certainly have no precedence. 20:43:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:43:18 They're all L->R 20:43:21 easy to confuse those 20:43:23 Gregor: indeed 20:43:31 in J, everything is right-associative :D 20:43:55 elliott, how do you wrote 2+5*4 in smalltalk then? 20:44:10 I think with Haskell I was thinking about "custom" operators maybe? Can't you name functions starting with symbols, then you don't need backticks to make them act as operators? 20:44:15 Surely those are all the same precedence? 20:44:17 in j, you write it as 2+5*4 20:44:43 Gregor: you can define the precedence of those when you define them 20:44:45 iirc 20:44:49 ... whoaaaaaaaaaaaaah 20:44:53 *mind blown* 20:44:59 Gregor, what is so surprising about that? 20:45:01 i just remember "infixr" being a keyword 20:45:12 Vorpal: Nothing, in fact Plof can do that too, but still, *mind blown* :P 20:45:23 Gregor, why 20:45:41 All of Vorpal's design goals boil down to "it's written in C++" 20:45:55 cpressey, ouch. Well I have nothing to do with that language. 20:45:57 distinguishing-language-from-implementation fail 20:46:05 Gregor: it blows my mind that that blows your mind 20:46:26 Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business, unless precedence is just some arbitrary integer. 20:46:41 ? 20:46:44 And if it's an arbitrary integer, then that means there's an implicit dependent type system that affects the semantic behavior of the code. 20:46:58 it doesn't sound at all complicated 20:47:11 maybe you're just very simple 20:47:47 Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business, unless precedence is just some arbitrary integer. 20:47:52 It's an arbitrary integer. 20:47:53 what do you mean arbitrary integer, like calculated at runtime? :D 20:47:58 And your line about "dependent type system" is incoherent. 20:48:04 infixl 8 + 20:48:08 hey guess what language does that stuff all the time: J 20:48:11 -- declares (+) to be left-associative, precedence 8 20:48:26 I think with Haskell I was thinking about "custom" operators maybe? Can't you name functions starting with symbols, then you don't need backticks to make them act as operators? 20:48:26 Surely those are all the same precedence? 20:48:28 elliott, wait a second, don't you need () around that + ? 20:48:33 all operators are that in Haskell, nothing "custom" about them 20:48:39 infixr 3 +-// 20:48:43 (+-//) :: A -> B -> C 20:48:46 a +-// b = ... 20:48:57 elliott: infixl is a declaration, right, not an expression? 20:49:01 Yes. 20:49:05 Erm, hence "declares" X-D 20:49:10 Just like module declarations, class declarations, instance declarations, type signatures, ... 20:49:13 elliott, be careful, so you don't blow Gregor's mind so far he can't find it again 20:49:16 And the integer has to be a literal, obviously :P 20:49:23 I think it's 0-9 or something. 20:49:33 elliott, that's a pretty small range 20:49:36 So that $ can be the top. 20:50:19 Gregor: Do you find it... simple again? :P 20:50:23 why not... oh 20:50:31 Gregor: Remember that all imports are processed first thing. 20:50:37 garbledgegarbledegabblegoo 20:50:44 cpressey, what 20:50:45 So whenever it's looking at code, Haskell knows all the signatures, fixities, classes, etc. in the current scope. 20:51:03 And it processes the fixities before it looks at function bodies, IIRC. 20:51:28 Vorpal: Vorpal (the language) uses some ideas I had, but not exactly 20:51:47 watch as i drive cpressey away 20:51:49 hey cpressey 20:51:50 apex 20:51:53 cpressey, oh? I thought the only idea it had was being written in C++? 20:51:58 elliott, ? 20:51:58 * cpressey has quit 20:52:14 maybe cpressey once had the idea of writing something in C++ 20:52:17 but not exactly 20:52:21 XD 20:52:31 elliott, I thought it was "BGP" that drove him away 20:52:49 elliott, what is "apex"? 20:53:03 elliott: Right, so now the way that other code PARSES depends on a declaration. 20:53:25 elliott, googling for it, it is everything from car rental in NZ to a night club in Washington... 20:53:29 Gregor: Not really; it parses it into what's basically ([(Expr,Op)],Expr), IIRC 20:53:33 And then sorts that out later. 20:53:41 It's not really that complicated *shrug* 20:53:43 And the benefits are obvious. 20:53:44 Gregor: how is that problematic? 20:53:50 It's not problematic, it's /surprising/. 20:54:10 Vorpal: the only design goals they state have to do with C++. for the design of the actual language, they chose things, without regard to any goal, I guess 20:54:11 not really, cise had a much more complicated parsing and it's even purer than haskell 20:54:18 er... can you change the precedence of built-in operators in haskell? <-- you can introduce a new operator with the same name and any precedence you want, as long as you hide the original one when importing. 20:54:19 Gregor: Moar Haskell impurity: With Template Haskell, the syntactical structure of some code can depend on IO at compile time!!! 0mg!!! 20:54:25 cpressey, okay, what sort of idea? 20:54:26 mainly because it doesn't exist. 20:54:28 the main thing is the "semi-implicit self" -- you say .foo to refer to a foo on self 20:54:40 oklopol, can you replace (+) then? 20:54:44 but i discarded that after thinking about it for a while anyway :) 20:54:55 Vorpal: in cise? 20:55:05 cpressey: aaaapeeeeeex 20:55:08 oklopol, in haskell? 20:55:10 come on get driven away geez 20:55:13 cpressey: That's not even semi-implicit, that's just having the null string as a contextual replacement for "this" :P 20:55:14 but it's not *that* bad an idea, if you don't like to declare locals 20:55:14 elliott, what the heck is "apex"? 20:55:55 Gregor: true. Can I say "unobtrusive"? it's about the shortest explicit self you could have :) 20:56:13 cpressey, there is a way to do shorter 20:56:16 maybe a convention like, lowercase -> local, uppercase -> member on self 20:56:31 * Sgeo watches dance-sorts 20:56:50 cpressey, either what you just said, or having to do global:foo and local:foo and just foo for self 20:56:53 maybe a convention like, lowercase -> local, uppercase -> member on self 20:56:54 you mean 20:56:55 like Ruby 20:56:56 but that would be silly 20:57:02 @foo == omg instance variable 20:57:02 Maybe you meant: do faq ft todo yow 20:57:03 JUST 20:57:04 SAYING 20:57:16 ., @, mere bits off :) 20:57:31 elliott: but can you also say self@foo ? 20:57:42 cpressey: all instance variables are private 20:57:55 so, no 20:58:07 (it could have syntax to do that, but it'd always have "self" in front, so what's the point) 20:58:22 so it seems a bit different 20:58:40 .foo == self['foo'] 20:58:42 in Vorpal 20:58:46 not really :) I mean, who would write "self.foo" if you have ".foo"? 20:58:49 nobody 20:59:04 who would write "let in 3" in haskell? 20:59:12 your mom 20:59:21 cpressey, gah these highlights are getting annoying XD 20:59:24 SO 20:59:24 CPRESSEY 20:59:25 APEX 20:59:28 Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business [...] <-- you're actually correct, the haskell 98 standard defined things with precedence intertwined with parsing and this has unforeseen interactions (e.g. with indentation sensitivity) so that no compiler actually implements it properly. the latest revision has removed this wart by making precedence a stri 20:59:34 elliott, almost as bad as in #nethack (the Vorpal Sword) 20:59:37 elliott: you keep saying that word. 20:59:39 err 20:59:41 oerjan: -ing? 20:59:44 cpressey I meant 20:59:51 elliott, WHAT IS APEX? 20:59:58 cpressey: wow, you've managed to blank your mind already 21:00:01 elliott, WHAT IS APEX? 21:00:01 IMPRESSIVE , SIR ! 21:00:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:00:32 oerjan, that got cut off 21:00:39 oerjan, "by making precedence a stri" 21:01:29 ape -x 21:01:36 elliott, WHAT IS APEX? 21:03:18 Vorpal: I will call the language "Vor'pal" hereinafter for your benefit. btw, I have to admire its design a little bit -- it's regular, if nothing else. But I'd have to reimplement it in a language that isn't crap before I'd feel alright playing with it. 21:03:23 who would write "let in 3" in haskell? <-- i suppose they allowed empty let blocks for easier automatic code generation or something 21:03:31 like C, or Haskell, or Scheme 21:03:42 oerjan: it's orthogonal! 21:03:46 cpressey, heh 21:04:03 oh cutoff, [...] post-rest-of-parsing issue. 21:04:15 cpressey: reimplement it in Vorpal! 21:04:16 does some bot here speak scheme? 21:04:22 oerjan: "precedence a str" 21:04:24 cpressey, I think some languages uses ' to mark a click sound. Please pronounce it that way if possible. 21:04:26 cpressey: me 21:04:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:05:03 sudo apt-get install mit-scheme ::: After this operation, 19.8MB of additional disk space will be used. 21:05:06 Thanks, MIT. 21:05:20 cpressey: try sisc 21:05:21 actually I have racket installed 21:05:24 (technically, the latest revision just settles on what the compilers already do) 21:05:25 ew 21:05:30 cpressey: you said *scheme* :) 21:05:46 oerjan, you managed to get confused over WHERE the cut off was 21:05:47 Welcome to Racket v5.0.1. 21:05:47 > (let* () 5) 21:05:47 5 21:05:47 cpressey: scheme48 is also good 21:05:48 : parse error on input `*' 21:05:54 oerjan: ^^^ that's why. 21:05:55 cpressey: dude, that starts in racket mode 21:05:55 oerjan, it was at "precedence a str" as elliott said 21:05:57 and I said 21:06:01 that's nothing to do with scheme 21:06:11 elliott: oh, so you think scheme will error on that? 21:06:24 oerjan, "by making precedence a stri" <-- bah elliott made me think it cut off somewhere else... "making precedence a strictly post-rest-of-parsing issue." 21:06:27 cpressey: Racket errors out on set-car!; I would not be surprised. 21:07:02 oerjan, ah 21:07:15 oerjan, you need a better client. One which splits lines 21:07:26 1 ]=> (let* () 5) 21:07:26 ;Value: 5 21:07:28 happy? 21:07:33 library syntax: (let ) 21:07:33 Syntax: should have the form 21:07:33 (( ) ...), 21:07:33 where each is an expression, and should be a sequence of one or more expressions. It is an error for a to appear more than once in the list of variables being bound. 21:07:40 hmm, that's ambiguous 21:07:44 I'd have to look up the definition of ... 21:07:54 fizzie: You there? 21:08:34 Deewiant: O_O 21:08:38 Lurker. 21:09:58 Gregor: one more thing, functions put in backticks can also have their precedence declared, the canonical examples being `div` and `mod` (same fixity as /) 21:10:42 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:10:59 wait they can? 21:10:59 :D 21:11:01 i didn't know that 21:11:03 that's perverse 21:11:04 yes 21:11:19 you didn't know that? why would you ever assume anything else? 21:11:35 elliott, btw did you know in df, you can make dwarfs engrave walls and floors to increase the value of a room? It generates a procedural description of the engraving based on the world history. Masterful engravings will be entered in history. Sometimes you can get thing like an engraving depicting another engraving, depicting a third engraving XD 21:11:59 oklopol: because `` feels like a magical operator-making thing 21:12:02 like 21:12:03 making 21:12:06 not looking at existing 21:12:06 dfgfj 21:12:21 i guess it has a magical feel to it 21:12:38 everything is magical to you people 21:13:33 > let (+) = 3; f = (Prelude.+) in (+) `f` (+) 21:13:34 6 21:14:04 they're almost completely interchangabel 21:14:08 *le 21:15:16 i think i have another pixley-like language which is different 21:15:23 what would be awesome is 21:15:25 a = b 21:15:29 a inherited bs fixities and things 21:15:38 cpressey: i was trying to beat pixley's size 21:15:38 but it was hard 21:15:48 that is, smallest self-interp subset of shceme 21:15:49 it would be, yes 21:15:49 scheme 21:16:11 there's a reason it defines cadr, for example :) 21:16:27 you'd think, oh, you can just do that with car and cdr 21:16:49 but then you see how many times the self-interpreter uses cadr... 21:17:07 but i don't think there's a competition 21:17:09 unless there is 21:17:34 :t first 21:17:36 forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c d. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) 21:17:45 but my new language isn't a scheme subset, its forms are just kind of similar to pixley's 21:17:50 hmph 21:18:38 cpressey: well *I* was competing :) 21:20:25 cadr is something of a symptom of not having short pattern matching like haskell 21:21:17 Deewiant: Yes, sorta. 21:21:26 fizzie: I mailed you already 21:21:33 Ha, I read "I was trying to beat pixley's size" as "I was trying to beat pixley's wife" 21:21:34 Feel free to respond here. 21:21:50 dbc: oh god do you guys read this thing all the time 21:21:57 the enigma speaks! 21:22:03 Deewiant: fizzie: You guys are talking about that COMPETITION 21:22:24 No, usually only when I notice that I've been mentioned recently. 21:22:26 Deewiant: I guess I can swipe it in, the tournament's going to take ages(tm) anyway since I'm running them on kosh. 21:22:39 fizzie: Cheers 21:22:56 I still recommend Triton ;-) 21:23:01 dbc dbc dbc 21:23:29 Yes yes, fine tradition of Pazuzu, Hastur, etc., uh huh 21:23:54 a bit hard on the pronunciation though 21:24:48 Deewiant: Yeah, well... you're not on the course channel, you haven't heard the latest kosh troubles. The silly thing has a nproc soft/hard limit of 128/256 (from /etc/security/limits.conf), and since that thing on Linux counts threads, and the OpenJDK VM has all kinds of silly internal garbage-collection threads 'n such, I can manage to run a total of two (2) simultaneous games at the moment. 21:25:18 oh, and I forgot I had chibi-scheme installed, too: 21:25:19 > (let* () 5) 21:25:19 5 21:25:20 : parse error on input `*' 21:25:39 fizzie: Oh right, I meant to join that around now. 21:25:56 fizzie: Do you need to use OpenJDK? :-P 21:26:21 Deewiant: I'm hoping next week someone's going to relax those limits for me a bit. They already threw away the 20 GB address space hard-ulimit which caused plain "java" to not work (but which didn't affect me any, since java -Xmx256M runs with no problems with the 20G address space limit in place, and it's per-process, not per-user); then I guess they skipped out early for some Friday celebrations, so I haven't gotten any replies to my "excuse me but it's this 21:26:21 other limit that's the problem" emails. 21:26:50 Deewiant: It's either that, Sun's runtime which is probably pretty much identical, or some sort of gcj-driven thing... anyway, I already announcered OpenJDK as the "official" platform a while ago. 21:27:25 gcj sounds like a good idea 21:27:35 Deewiant: There's an on-channel thing that announces when games start/end, incidentally. But you're probably going to have to wait a while until you see any announcements. :p 21:27:49 WHICH CHANNEL WHICH CHANNEL ZOMGGGG 21:27:57 fizzie: Yeah, that was kind of why I was intending to join 21:28:04 Statistics for the win and all that. 21:28:12 elliott: It's on the course page in our courseware bortal site, you can find it there. 21:28:19 (It's also in the ircnet side of the fence.) 21:28:21 IS THAT AN INTRANET SITE 21:28:59 (Away some momentsies.) 21:29:36 I do not appear to bea ble to log on to this IRC NET 21:29:41 *be able 21:29:42 How odd. 21:31:10 AHA 21:31:14 Now to find the channel. 21:31:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:31:26 [ATTEMPT 1] 21:31:28 I heard Richard Stallman talk yesterday. I agree with him but he definitely comes off as an ideologue. I kept thinking he would be more persuasive if he were more nuanced. Dunno. 21:31:29 Deewiant: What's the channel called? 21:31:49 dbc speaks! 21:31:50 Ask fizzie not me 21:31:52 dbc: rms' lack of nuance is the reason for both his fame and status as a laughing stock :P 21:32:08 (I mean, I knew he came off as an ideologue from reading his numerous things online, I just didn't know if he'd be the same in person) 21:32:16 (answer: yes) 21:32:47 dbc: IIRC he has like three speeches that he's given repeatedly for the past N years :P 21:34:16 is one of them called free the software 21:34:27 because i saw that on youtube 21:34:28 JOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE 21:34:33 YOU'LL BE FREE, HACKERS, YOU'LL BE FREEEEEE 21:34:50 IF YOU AGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGUE THEN YOU MUST AGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGUE 21:34:51 At the end he was talking about what the public schools need to do to respect the kids's freedom and teach them to value their own freedom and help them grow up to be good citizens. And I was wondering where he got the idea that the schools were vaguely interested in doing any of those things. 21:35:40 He should read some John Gatto or something. 21:35:51 dbc, I heard he has been known to pick his toes during interviews. 21:36:19 And eat the remains. 21:36:23 There is videographic evidence of this. 21:37:09 well i occasionally suck on my toes 21:37:23 (anyone want to guess what he thinks the schools should do?) 21:37:33 dbc: kill the weak ones 21:37:59 dbc: put them through extreme mental and physical torture 21:38:07 hah, I finally found Racket's R5RS intepreter: 'plt-r5rs' 21:38:14 five seconds left. 21:38:16 and it does the usual 21:38:22 dbc: um 21:38:25 They should use free software and only free software. 21:38:25 dbc: who, Gatto? 21:38:31 oh 21:38:31 oh 21:38:32 :D 21:38:34 :D 21:38:35 No, Stallman :PPP 21:38:49 dbc: maybe even FORCE them to use only free softwar? 21:38:51 *software 21:38:54 i'm actually grinning after a :D 21:38:54 that's rare 21:39:02 that would teach them freedom whether they like it or not 21:39:05 it warms my heart that there are people as pure and stupid as rms in the world :) 21:39:08 oklopol: lol 21:39:10 dbc: ... where (region) are you? 21:39:13 SHUT UP! IT'S FOR YOUR FREEDOM! 21:39:15 and what do those little retards know anyway 21:39:19 Portland Oregon USA. 21:39:22 KNEW IT 21:39:25 "But I don't *want* any freedom!" "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE!" 21:39:26 i knew it too 21:39:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:39:38 actually i had no idea 21:39:43 A Portland friend of mine told me that a friend of HIS had arranged for RMS to come to PSU :P 21:39:54 Gregor: SO WE KNOW WHO TO BLAME 21:40:02 Yes, a friend of a friend of mine! 21:40:20 So reduce the stack a bit, and: you. 21:40:23 We will lynch you. 21:42:49 There's a plt-r6rs too, but it... doesn't have... a REPL. 21:42:50 cpressey@pressey:~/checkout$ plt-r6rs test.scm 21:42:50 test.scm:1:0: top-level-program: expected an `import' declaration, found something else in: (display (let* () 5)) 21:42:59 So 21:43:03 I see Scheme is dead now... 21:43:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:44:45 cpressey: wat? 21:44:56 why are you using r6rs 21:45:00 r6rs specifically forbids REPLs, IIRC 21:45:21 elliott: I just wanted to see if empty let bindings was kosher there. 21:45:29 it... specifically... 21:45:40 *blink* 21:45:57 come again? 21:46:00 link 21:47:28 holy cow you're right 21:47:30 Interactions disabled: r6rs does not support a REPL (no #%top-interaction) 21:47:42 I stand by my observation that Scheme is dead. 21:47:48 coppro: the entire semantics are defined in terms of things that make no sense in the concept of repls, IIRC 21:47:51 there was lots of flaming about it 21:48:09 * Now talking on #%top-interaction 21:48:15 i think there are r6rs repls, but they essentially define their own program semantics 21:48:41 Anyway! Going to make maybe French toast. See you. 21:49:00 french toast is wonderful 21:49:00 BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN 21:49:01 mmm 21:49:04 yummy cya 21:49:13 who? dbc? 21:51:02 arg, the hello world site doesn't even specify a version of Scheme that their Scheme "hello world" is in 21:51:13 NOT R6RS IS ALL I CAN TELL YA 21:51:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:52:46 so, how long will it take me to find a R6RS "hello world"? Rosetta code doesn't have one, either 21:55:13 `addquote BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN 21:55:15 355) BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN 21:55:24 AND HackEgo WILL HELP 21:58:46 #lang r6rs 21:58:47 (import (rnrs base) (rnrs io simple)) (display "hello world") 21:59:09 Right, so, they're slowly turning it into Java. Good for them! 21:59:20 first line is racket specific btw 21:59:27 yeah 22:00:16 and you can leave out (rnrs base) apparently 22:00:48 at any rate, I had read the spec to come up with that 22:01:53 oh right there was a reason i was doing this 22:02:34 (import (rnrs base) (rnrs io simple)) (display (let* () 5)) -----> 5 22:02:48 what impl? 22:02:51 i wouldn't trust racket :) 22:02:56 larceny maybe 22:02:58 Racket, yeah. 22:03:06 btw u need base for let*, HAR 22:04:16 and for let 22:04:28 which produces the same result as let* in every impl i've tried so far 22:04:47 the spec is ambiguous IMO 22:04:51 depends on how you interpret ... 22:06:05 elliott: why can't you be elliottt 22:06:08 WHY?? 22:06:49 so, the current hot application area for R6RS: video pinball! http://www.littlewingpinball.com/doc/en/ypsilon/index.html 22:08:11 dear god i can't even get drracket to close 22:11:02 I would personally interpret the example (foo ...) as meaning "one or more occurrences of foo", but whadduino 22:11:21 is a whadduino like an arduino 22:11:29 except whadded? 22:11:30 Is Ypsilon real-time in the actual, strict sense of real-time, or is it real-time in the sense of "fast enough"? 22:11:44 Gregor: i think you mean "interactive" or "online" 22:11:45 Gregor: well it's Scheme, so... 22:11:45 It's real-time as in game real-time :P 22:12:12 cpressey: My university has a big project on real-time Java. In the real sense of real-time. So anything is possible. 22:12:22 cheater99: No, I mean neither. Neither of those are real-time. 22:12:32 trolololol 22:12:33 Gregor: your university is a university. This is some Japanese guy who really likes video pinball. 22:12:51 i thought "fast enough" was opposed to real-time in your sentence. 22:13:01 cheater99: Real-time means that you can statically guarantee timing properties of the program. 22:13:09 curse those Erlang knaves for popularizing "soft real-time" 22:13:10 Gregor: really???? 22:13:24 cheater99: technically, yes, when people aren't abusing the term 22:13:37 cheater99: Yes [caveats: On a certain OS, on a certain piece of hardware, all the way down] 22:13:50 TROLOLOLOLOL 22:13:54 that totally surprised me, i always thought that "real-time" was a brand of toothpaste :| 22:14:09 no real-time is the REAL DEAL 22:14:15 cpressey: i think soft real-time predates erlang :P 22:14:20 Real-time is what you need to be to run on an airplane. 22:14:34 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----### 22:14:39 oerjan: :D 22:14:39 elliott: did I say they invented it? 22:14:48 i mean 22:14:50 its popularity 22:14:51 predates 22:14:51 i think 22:14:57 oerjan: swat harder 22:15:00 so about those real-time systems, why can't my os be one of those 22:15:00 Gregor: i know what "real-time" is. you didn't have to tell me that. 22:15:09 oklopol: *your* OS *can* be! 22:15:18 Gregor: if you didn't get it, i was being sarcastic. 22:15:18 :DS 22:15:39 cheater99: I EAT BABIES. 22:15:41 i didn't get it 22:15:49 Gregor: you monster! 22:15:54 cheater99: NOM NOM NOM 22:16:01 i did get that you didn't actually think real-time was a brand of toothpaste though 22:16:15 and i only eat babies if they are already dead by the time i find them 22:16:19 * cheater99 gives Gregor some woucester sauce. 22:16:37 oklopol: have you played penumbra :D 22:16:44 no what's that 22:16:47 it's a game 22:16:50 bah I need a scheme to build Larceny 22:16:52 there's a comment there similar to this 22:16:55 oh i thought it was a brand of toothpaste 22:17:00 no it's a game 22:17:07 okay 22:17:10 ok so like I have like a dozen schemes installed at this point but that's beside the fact 22:17:10 and there's not one tub of toothpaste in it. play it. 22:17:16 it's really good. 22:17:20 cpressey: you must really hate building ghc 22:17:22 penumbra 22:17:33 Larceny compiles directly to native machine code for the Intel IA32 or SPARC architectures. 22:17:33 Petit Larceny is a portable implementation that compiles to C instead of machine code. 22:17:33 Common Larceny runs in the Common Language Runtime (CLR) of Microsoft .NET, generating IL, which is JIT-compiled to native machine code by the CLR. 22:17:36 eagerly awaiting Garden Larceny 22:18:36 so who here has programmed anything in NaCl? 22:18:48 fizzie: WHAT IST IRC 22:18:53 elliott: dear god dear god yes. 22:18:59 oh! wait! 22:19:10 * [fizzie] @!NDQJMt934400 #douglasadams @#irtie #!/usr/bin/ff @#getnolife 22:19:12 I BET IT'S THE FIRST ONE 22:19:21 The humans are dead.. 22:19:40 HA 22:19:50 Does IRCnet not have +i? :-) 22:20:18 lol @ ircnet 22:20:29 aaaaand larceny accepts (let* () 5). 22:20:36 hyvä kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen 22:20:38 finnish works this way 22:20:55 haha, this is kind of wrong though, like kicking a dog :/ 22:20:58 a dog with a ridiculous language 22:21:33 cheater99: OMG THAT'S TABLE SALT 22:21:52 cpressey: NO! 22:21:59 well, yes it is. 22:22:09 cpressey: shocking! 22:22:46 cpressey: it's also a sort of asm-like language that google is pushing. 22:22:58 ypsilon gives me an R6RS REPL. RACY. 22:23:14 it's actually just asm, with some special things that the static analyzer needs to validate it against. 22:23:15 Aaaaand it too believes (let* () 5) is perfectly valid and means 5. 22:23:38 typed assembly language, huh 22:23:42 cpressey has this nice new life goal 22:23:42 nah 22:23:45 it's cute 22:23:53 he'll never stop until he's evaluated that expression in every scheme implementation ever 22:24:03 it just analyzes whether it calls any functions it's not allowed to, that's all 22:24:20 that's a sort of type system 22:24:30 yeah, there are two types 22:24:41 the type of person who thinks it's a typed system, and the type who doesn't 22:25:02 `quote solidity 22:25:05 330) enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 22:25:16 is that where that came from? 22:25:21 yes 22:25:43 previously they asked if anyone in here was Rosicrucian 22:25:47 is that some real thing though? 22:25:58 also there's some sort of rave going on upstairs 22:26:03 gaggle it and you'll know 22:26:10 13:17:08 treederwright, what're the dimensions of the matrix of solidity? 22:26:10 13:18:01 Is the matrix of solidity square? Is it invertible? 22:26:14 maybe i should go there naked and yell "orgy time!" 22:26:16 these questions were never answered. 22:26:23 oklopol: same here, but downstairs 22:26:27 they had a tango festival 22:31:26 the zodiac 22:31:33 13:41:24 shit has no value and thus doesn't lose any, is useful for getting rid off and can be small. it's not highly valuable though. 22:31:54 `quote odiac 22:31:56 No output. 22:32:34 "X has no value" -> "X is not highly valuable" 22:32:37 VALID INFERENCE 22:32:57 13:47:05 are rodeos built out of rhodium 22:32:58 13:47:14 Yes. Yes they are. 22:32:58 13:47:16 So is Rhodew. 22:32:58 13:47:19 *Rhodes 22:32:58 13:47:26 this all makes sense. 22:32:58 13:47:30 maybe i can learn more tomorrow -> 22:33:32 i wonder if i did 22:34:18 you learn something new every day, oklopol. 22:34:26 so hey oklopol, ircnet !NDQJMt934400 22:34:28 be there or be oblong 22:34:37 it's a party 22:34:53 i will soon have a strongly typed scheme-let which isn't actually too very much like scheme, unless i get bored with this and decide to think about something else 22:34:58 GOOD NIGHT, GENTLE FOLK 22:34:59 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:35:17 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:35:54 come now oklopol 22:35:57 :| 22:36:02 -!- wareya has joined. 22:36:26 fizzie: 22:36:26 takes sorta long to get accepted to ircnet 22:36:27 The book: 22:36:28 Stuart Russel, Peter Norvig. 22:36:28 Artificial Intelligence: the Modern Approach. 22:36:34 fizzie: this should be "Russell", "A Modern" 22:36:36 (https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-93.4400/summary_in_english) 22:36:40 YW 22:36:47 they're singing "we're not gonna take it" 22:36:52 i can clearly hear the lyrics 22:37:06 i should probably stop watching pig porn with full volume 22:37:08 oklopol: well i just wished that channel a good kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen, i think however that it is much better now that you are there 22:40:10 sadly it's not aurinkoloistamassataivaalla-aika right now so no one's talking 22:40:10 wait 22:40:13 no someone talked 22:41:53 fizzie: boring! 22:42:09 oklopol: speak some fake polysynthetic-finnish, we'll convince everyone we're brothers 22:42:17 or just start okoing :D 22:42:24 i'd never do something that childish 22:42:28 indeed. never. 22:42:58 which reminds me, should prolly take pikhq off ignore 22:43:23 why was he on ignore 22:43:34 he told me i know less math than the egyptians 22:43:53 i found it a huge insult 22:44:18 when was that 22:44:19 2008? 22:44:35 i dunno, anything between 3 days and 3 months ago 22:45:45 i bet my guitar amp could outloud those party dudes 22:52:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:52:56 elliott: say, you don't happen to want normish.org, do you? 22:53:08 It is good to keep both logs in case one is broke 22:53:15 both logs are there 22:53:21 Yes I can see that. 22:53:28 tswett: I want it more than an un-Friendly AI might want to fill the universe with paperclips. 22:53:41 elliott: do you want it a positive amount? 22:53:59 I guess the minimum possible amount of wanting is 0, and anything other than 0 constitutes want. 22:54:03 I want it an INFINITE POSITIVE AMOUNT. 22:54:08 Oh, okay. 22:54:24 You should have been in ##nomic, then; the topic has said for days that I'm giving it away. :P 22:54:37 What rank of infinity do you want? 22:55:26 elliott: do you have a MyDomain account? 22:55:58 Would ownership of normish.org involve spending money? 22:56:16 tswett: I totally do. On the other hand, I don't want it today, if that's okay X-D 22:56:27 You'd have to renew it every so often. You would not have to pay me, unless there are multiple people who want it. 22:56:35 Well. 22:56:45 tswett: I want it more if there is any interest in playing a game like Normish. 22:56:54 I have interest in that. :P 22:57:22 Do you like to use FORMCARD? I invented the FORMCARD specification a while ago I would like to see in case of anything wrong you should check http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/formcard/fileformat.txt 22:57:50 tswett: People who aren't you. 22:58:22 elliott, yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy 22:58:33 I guess Sgeo also has interest in playing it. 22:58:53 Can't guarantee I'd be active all the time thogh 22:59:39 tswett: I now see the PERFECT WAY TO RUN NORMISH. 22:59:47 Poll tax! 23:00:07 To be able to vote, every month, everyone has to pay (cost of server)/(number of players). :p 23:00:25 I thought you were specifically trying to exclude me 23:00:36 Those who don't do that for two months in a row have their accounts made inactive. Any costs not covered are paid by root. 23:00:37 GENIUS AMIRITE 23:01:11 Sgeo: wut? 23:01:12 I've figured there'd be a certain number of voting credits, and you could buy them outright, but anyone who's willing to pay more for them can buy them out from under you. 23:01:28 tswett: I was mostly just trying to avoid having to spend money on the whole endeavour :) 23:01:33 elliott, since I find it annoying to pay for stuff 23:01:37 I have a server for free as long as I don't do anything naughty. 23:01:44 What provider? 23:01:53 My friend. :P 23:02:03 Who's getting it from prgmr. 23:02:30 tbh, it'd be a lot easier if I just got a prgmr server myself :-P 23:02:38 We'd probably do fine with the $8/mo package, even. 23:02:51 Gregor: How much do you pay for FlyByWire? 23:02:52 That's fine. I'd be fully willing to pay half. 23:02:55 Gregor: Because prgmr have a $5/mo server :P 23:03:04 A whole 64 MEBIOCTETS of RAM. 23:03:05 elliott: $20/yr 23:03:11 That's 16 MEBIWORDS of RAM. 23:03:15 Gregor: Wow :P 23:03:35 elliott: Fly By Wire Enterprises: We is with having of the good times servers for less your money! 23:03:41 ™ 23:04:12 What the heck is fly-by-wire about it anyway :P 23:04:21 Just the price. 23:04:24 "Fly-by-wireless" BEST TERM EVER 23:04:44 The fact that you don't control the servers by applying mechanical force to their control surfaces. :P 23:04:50 tswett: Anyway, clearly Normish 2 has to be an acceptable host for SmallNomic :P 23:04:58 Clearly! 23:05:10 tswett: To be honest, my IDEAL SmallNomic concept is actually... @nomic. 23:05:37 What's that? A Twitter account? 23:05:37 PROFESSIONAL BA-BY 23:05:53 Gregor: What's that from again >_> 23:05:55 tswett: You know of elliottOS? 23:06:04 elliott: IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEN YOU'RE AN ANDROID 23:06:09 elliott: no. 23:06:12 Gregor: RIGHT 23:06:16 elliott: Where'd you pull that word from 23:06:20 Deewiant: :-) 23:06:33 elliott: should I make us a WePay account to handle expenses? 23:06:58 tswett: Let's say tomorrow. 23:07:03 Today I am rather sleepy. 23:07:06 Deewiant: With oklopol's knowledge of Finnish and my desire for every language to be polysynthetic combined, we applied our combined forces to create the best word for "today" ever. 23:07:11 Deewiant: I hope you grokked the meaning. 23:07:12 WHY DID NOBODY TELL ME ABOUT WEPAY WHEN I WAS COLLECTING FOR LIBC.SO 23:07:28 elliott: Aye, I guessed as much 23:07:28 tswett: Q:Does WePay allow international (non-US) payments? 23:07:28 A:Not right now, but we hope to soon. 23:07:32 tswett: Sorry, not workable. 23:07:33 Gregor: Sorry I didn't know about WePay either 23:08:14 tswett: I would be fine just paying for the server myself, but if you want to pay half of it, then I'm fine just receiving half the yearly cost every year via any means :P 23:08:17 elliott: no. I want Normish to be up and running with 1,000,000 users by tonight. 23:08:27 I'll get Google on the phone. 23:08:41 elliott: So do you want to know who Fly By Wire Industries is? :P 23:08:48 Gregor: Yes. I believe you've said but sure :P 23:09:00 Gregor: I'm sorry, it's my fault. I knew about WePay but deliberately chose not to tell you because I hate your guts. 23:09:08 Not you yourself, just your guts. 23:09:09 Deewiant: Wait, so if I walked up to you IRL and dropped that word into a sentence, you'd continue on like nothing happened? 23:09:10 elliott: Oh, the other thing that was distressing is their extremely nondescript plans, including several plans with a substantially different price but the same features. 23:09:20 Deewiant: THIS COULD BE ENOUGH TO MAKE ME LEARN FINNISH 23:09:23 365ezone.com (<-- also so lol) 23:09:24 And I figured the best way to spite your guts was this. 23:09:45 Gregor: Dude, you should have got a Windows server. 23:09:47 More diversity. 23:09:53 elliott: I'd understand what you're trying to say, but I wouldn't continue "like nothing happened" :-P 23:10:11 elliott: what's this magical word that you're talking about? 23:10:15 Deewiant: You can't say you'd give me a blank stare, because a blank stare is the default Finnish facial expression. 23:10:23 tswett: kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen 23:10:26 tswett: It means "today". 23:10:30 elliott: and are you sure you can't make a United States domestic payment? :P 23:10:34 elliott: See: Price. 23:10:45 It means "24-hour-time-period-current" or something 23:10:48 I understand four letters of that word! Yay! 23:10:51 tswett: I'm not SURE of that, but I'm sufficiently not unsure of it that it seems less pain just to give the payments in bulk :P 23:10:57 At least, I think I do. :P 23:11:04 Deewiant: Precisely. 23:11:07 Deewiant: except unlike the finnish version, that english word is almost a valid sentence 23:11:11 erm 23:11:18 oklopol: et tu brute 23:11:18 not sentence but noun pile 23:11:22 noun pile :D 23:11:27 No, I actually don't understand any of it. 23:11:36 Deewiant: http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg 23:12:12 but if it was kahdenkymmenenneljntunninajanjaksotmnhetkinen, it'd be as good 23:12:52 That "tämänhetkinen" just seems wrong 23:13:01 Deewiant: as wrong as in english 23:13:22 Still wrong 23:13:37 you dislike tmnhetkinenkahdenkymmenenneljntunninajanjakso too? 23:13:48 Deewiant: I am offering a $9999999999 bounty for composing the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." in a single word of polysyntheticFinnish. 23:14:04 oklopol: Yes, because then it should be (at least) two words :-P 23:14:15 elliott: Do you have that much money? 23:14:19 Absolutely. 23:14:22 Deewiant: unlike current24hourperiod? 23:14:30 He never said which currency that's in. 23:14:44 OK, what currency is that in? 23:14:51 oklopol: The 24hourperiod bit is fairly fine in Finnish, not English. 23:14:52 (It is probably some currency using the dollar sign?) 23:15:04 It is elliott dollars. 23:15:13 I am the treasurer, mint, &c. 23:15:59 O, so you made up your own $9999999999 bill which is valid only for paying you? 23:16:05 Deewiant: maybe slightly more fine 23:16:09 Also for paying Deewiant. 23:16:13 Zimbabwe dollars 23:16:14 It will open up an account in the Bank of Elliott. 23:16:23 (Now valueless) 23:16:23 elliott: Best I can do is "my hovercraft full of eels" in two words: ankeriastäytteinen ilmatyynyalukseni 23:16:38 Deewiant: Dude, it doesn't have to be perfectly valid Finnish. 23:16:46 Well then just remove the space 23:16:57 Creating a word like your 24-hour-period 23:16:59 Deewiant: You need to fit the "is" in... probably in suffix. 23:17:12 elliott dollars are legal tender for all debts, public and private, owed by elliott. 23:17:13 HOW TO MAKE A VALID FINNISH WORD: REMOVE SPACES 23:17:30 elliott: "is" is totally unnecessary in Finnish. 23:17:35 yay 23:17:38 Gregor: there are actually like 28 one-letter finnish words 23:17:41 Gregor: you just concatenate them successively 23:17:55 How many letters are used in Finnish, not counting "sh"? 23:18:10 can you turn täyttyä into some neat verb form that would be past, finitive, detransitivized 23:18:33 elliott: Of course! 23:18:44 Deewiant: new bounty: "twenty-four-hour-period-in-which-my-hovercraft-is-full-of-eels" 23:18:57 Such that it could go after "good", e.g. "good day" -> "good [day in which my hovercraft is full of eels]" 23:19:00 *i.e. 23:19:06 I'll leave that one for oklopol 23:19:32 oklopol: ^ 23:20:05 that requires too great finnish-fu for my hurri abilities :| 23:21:07 * oklopol says nothing and hopes they go away 23:21:49 oklopol: HI 23:22:51 You can do this with German, too. 23:22:55 Do we have any Germans here? 23:22:56 elliott: I do hope you're actually inputting nonsense into a translator instead of getting that out of something sensible 23:23:08 Deewiant: i refuse to disclose :-D 23:23:11 *disclose my methods 23:23:24 (Or Austrians, Suisse Deutsch?) 23:23:30 ilmatyynyaluksenankeriaistäyttyneisyydenkahdenkymmenennenneljäntunninkausi 23:23:33 ? 23:23:40 alas, it lacks the first person possessive 23:24:02 good enough 23:24:11 yon eelful day 23:24:14 Zwaarddijk: pronounce THAT :D 23:24:30 there may be mistaken morphology in there 23:24:31 Google doesn't understand it :( 23:24:33 elliott: not hard, really 23:24:37 (It does know that it's Finnish) 23:24:37 Zwaarddijk: close enough, it means *something* except for the obvious typo 23:24:39 SO 23:24:40 ? 23:24:56 oklopol: my keyboard sucks so typos can be because of that 23:25:00 Looks like the Finnishest letters are adeghijklmnoprstuvyäö. 21 of them. 23:25:10 nåværende tjuefiretimersperiode 23:25:11 oi 23:25:22 the kymmenen got a bit mangled 23:25:23 So Finnish has 21 basic words, clearly, but there are a few loanwords, too. 23:25:29 or ait no 23:25:40 tswett: no, they're cunningly constructed out of the basic words 23:25:49 s/ankerias/ankerias 23:25:57 see, keyboard sucks! 23:26:00 So things such as "b" are constructed out of the other 21 letters? 23:26:03 fucking aptop of hell 23:26:33 *laptop <- see? 23:26:33 b was unable to cross the finnish line 23:26:45 actually 23:26:47 what's so funny about "olen menettänyt sen" 23:26:51 Everyone who crosses the Finnish border becomes unable to say "b". 23:26:57 I think there's a diagonalization proof that early Finnish could not support "b" 23:27:08 So things such as "b" are constructed out of the other 21 letters? 23:27:09 er. 23:27:09 yes. 23:27:10 :D 23:27:10 The "b"-aura doesn't extend into Finland, you see. 23:27:19 what's so funny about "olen menettänyt sen" 23:27:25 Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". 23:27:49 Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle". 23:28:18 `addquote Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle". 23:28:19 356) Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle". 23:29:25 norwegian samis are stereotypically unable of saying voiced stops... 23:29:34 *to say 23:30:16 and sami languages are closely related to finnish 23:30:19 elliott: olen menettnyt sen is funny because it's so far from the correct meaning, despite being unambiguously translatable and thus understandable. and menett is such a serious word. 23:30:25 i dunno. 23:30:31 oklopol: what does it actually mean then :P 23:30:34 oklopol: what's it supposed to mean? 23:30:36 i have lost it 23:30:42 Zwaarddijk: "I lost it" 23:30:43 e.g. 23:30:45 what did they mistranslate into it 23:30:49 please find my blah, I lost it 23:30:55 yeah, I misplaced it 23:30:56 is the intention 23:30:57 somesuch 23:31:05 ah, k. 23:31:06 well 23:31:11 it's got more connotations 23:31:28 way more. 23:31:30 oh you literally meant you have lost something? 23:31:47 oklopol: yes 23:31:52 my drift, that is 23:31:52 then it is not at all funny, just the wrong word. 23:31:55 :D 23:31:58 did you think i meant 23:31:59 i have misunderplaced it 23:32:00 i've lost my mind 23:32:00 yes 23:32:00 or similar 23:32:09 olen hukannut sen is closer then 23:32:50 actually menettää is more like, lost in gambling, lost something to someone as one of the connotations 23:33:02 pardon me sir, i would seem to have mislaid some of my marbles 23:39:49 My hand will not fit in the shredder. 23:40:10 ... 23:40:17 O KAY 23:40:30 that sounds like a feature rather than a flaw 23:41:28 Well yes. Actually the shredder is broken anyways. Now it will be necessary to unscrew it in order to fix it. 23:41:42 And I do not have that kind of screwdrivers. 23:42:12 menettää sounds like the polish word for cunnilingus. 23:47:34 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:49:25 Which feature of TeXnicard is most important one to you? (You are allowed to select one which is not implemented yet, if that is what you wish) 23:50:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:50:55 zzo38: the name 23:51:24 elliott: Would that be considered a feature of the program? 23:51:42 yes 23:51:51 zzo38: yes, it makes it better than the same project named e.g. "elliott" 23:52:39 Fan sucks as a name! J sucks as a name! Factor _really_ sucks as a name! 23:53:12 cheater00: Yes, perhaps it is correct, it is better for the project to be named correctly according to what it is, instead of according to what it isn't. But still, the name is not really one of the functions of the program, I think. 23:53:18 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined. 23:53:22 Sgeo: Can you suggest the better one than Fan, J, Factor? 23:53:44 Probably is best to leave those named as it is, since they were already like that? It might confuse more by changing it? 23:54:01 zzo38, they shouldn't have been named those things in the first place 23:54:07 fizzie: i think we're really improving your channel 23:54:20 If you look for Factor language, you'll get stuff about how to do factoring in given languages 23:54:21 Sgeo: OK, then. What do you think they should have been named? 23:54:27 zzo38, anything else 23:54:34 Sgeo: fan is a nice name 23:54:37 fantom is a bad name 23:54:56 Fantom's more Googleable than Fan 23:54:58 zzo38: the only reason for me to use your program is if it makes me feel better 23:55:06 although I guess fan programming or fan language is still Googleable 23:55:14 zzo38: i wouldn't feel so good if i were using an "elliott" program 23:55:31 I am sure you can find stuff about Factor language, on Wikipedia, the article titles are very well organized that you should easily be able to guess the article title for nearly anything you look up, and get it correct. 23:55:33 Oh, I thought it went Fantom -> Fan 23:55:37 It went Fan -> Fantom 23:55:39 I'm ok with that. 23:56:05 zzo38, but I want more than just Wikipedia and what it links to. I want to be able to search StackOverflow without getting nonsense about factoring 23:56:32 Sgeo: Do they have categories in StackOverflow that you can use instead? 23:56:35 Fantor 23:56:57 Dan + Tom = Dantom 23:57:18 Fannie Mae + Thomas = Fantom? 23:57:19 the The programming language 23:57:27 Fanlctorn 23:57:37 "The Language Formerly Known as Fan" 23:57:52 they should have called it an unpronouncable symbol 23:57:59 cheater00: Does my program makes you feel better? Generally the reason of using a computer program is it is useful for the things you are doing by computer. 23:58:05 ZOMGMODULES, that should be APL 23:58:23 zzo38: yes, no. 23:58:35 Dear Fantom, thank you for looking exactly like every other language. Yours, ZOMGMODULES 23:58:37 Sgeo: Yes, APL. 23:59:05 zzo38, I meant that APL's name should be 23:59:05 zzo38: yes, it is supposed to be useful, but the usefulness is not purely functional in the sense that there are no side-effects from the program in the form of the program *directly* accessing the state of my happiness. 23:59:16 the Programming language 23:59:26 as opposed to returning a happiness modifier to the higher-level task from within which it was involved. 23:59:33 * Sgeo notices oerjan 23:59:33 ZOMGMODULES: im gonna make apex without any of ur stinky influences 23:59:41 ... APL almost _is_ that isn't it. 23:59:56 cheater00: O, well, if it make you happy that is the bonus! 2011-04-09: 00:00:20 zzo38: programs can also make you unhappy 00:00:35 Sgeo: Yes I know what you meant about APL's name, from the context. Yes I know you meant that. 00:00:46 zzo38, ok, sorry, wsn't sure 00:00:48 asnt' 00:00:49 wasn't 00:00:53 I FIND IT INTERESTING 00:00:56 * 00:01:16 cheater00: I suppose it can, but I am not intention to make the program of unhappy. The program is meant for its use. 00:01:25 Obviously, I am King of the Jews... erm, Typos 00:01:38 I find it interesting that every modern language's "Why X?" FAQ entry includes the rhetorical question "Does the world really need another language?" 00:01:52 zzo38: what i am saying is, when making a program always make sure to think of the user's feelings! 00:02:01 elliott: how would it ever have had any of my influences anyway? 00:02:01 ZOMGMODULES: apex's will instead include "Does this new language really need the world?" 00:02:09 "No. No it doesn't. We forced it into the world." 00:02:19 ZOMGMODULES: hey you exerted _vague_ influence :D 00:02:33 elliott, is apex the new name of @? 00:03:27 elliott: GOOD LUCK WITH APEX 00:03:40 ZOMGMODULES: is this some kind of horrid reverse psychology 00:03:41 the apex of naming 00:03:55 Ima designing Bizaaro-Pixley 00:04:00 (working title) 00:04:07 ZOMGMODULES: i guess i'll uh 00:04:07 hmm 00:04:11 what was that one thing you didn't want apex to do 00:04:14 i think i've forgotten :( 00:04:40 Allow apex to continue its non-existence? 00:04:47 Bizaaro-Pixley is: statically typed: has 'eval' instead of 'quote': has only pairs and symbols: has some other crap you'd never see in Scheme 00:05:03 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:05:04 how do you have a literal symbol? 00:05:05 ZOMGMODULES: What is Bizaaro-Pixley (other than that)? 00:05:09 elliott: too late for MY considered opinion 00:05:13 cons up a list of lists-representing-numerals and convert that? 00:05:24 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:05:28 a literal symbol is a bareword. a pair is: [hi there] 00:05:38 or maybe (hi . there), I dunno 00:05:58 let's go with 00:06:00 no 00:06:04 html will kill me 00:06:23 can't be [] because that's eval 00:06:33 ZOMGMODULES: {hi there} 00:06:40 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:06:58 also, eval has syntax? perverse. i like it. 00:07:12 it has to because otherwise it sucks 00:07:17 Then use {} 00:07:33 for the purposes of demonstration I shall use {} but I am not sold on it 00:07:39 OK 00:07:40 -!- sftp has joined. 00:08:14 cheater00: Have you even *seen* my program? Otherwise how can you know? 00:08:39 zzo38: i never opined about your program 00:08:43 so: {hi there} evaluates to {hi there}. {cons {a b}} evaluates to {cons {a b}}. but [{cons {a b}] evaluates to {a b}. [{cons {[a] [b]}] does what you'd normally expect (cons a b) to do, in Scheme 00:08:51 except of the name, that is 00:09:16 THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU SNUB QUOTE 00:09:17 cheater00: O, OK. But how can you judge the book by only its name? 00:09:48 zzo38: zzo38: i never opined about your program 00:09:52 ZOMGMODULES: Is the {} mismatched, or is supposed to be like that? 00:10:29 cheater00: Then how can you know if it is correct name? 00:11:00 zzo38: i can judge a book's cover without reading the book. 00:11:19 Yes you can, but how can you judge if it is the correct cover for that book? 00:11:35 have i ever said anything about whether it is the correct name for your program? 00:11:43 flrgbl 00:12:14 ZOMGMODULES: so [] is not eval, it is unquote 00:12:15 You said is happy, but that should not be relevant except the program? If you just want to make it happy, you can make anything else, too. 00:13:15 wat 00:13:27 I have written some Bohlen-Pierce musics recently but I do not have it available right now sorry 00:13:51 cheater00: ? Stop cheating please ??? 00:14:11 zzo38: start english please? 00:14:13 :D 00:15:17 Can you play Bohlen-Pierce musics too? 00:17:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Toon guide). 00:17:33 I only made Bohlen-Pierce musics with no more than one note played at one time, so far, because I don't know how to make chord and stuff like that with Bohlen-Pierce musics. 00:17:53 elliott: well, it's *an* eval. and yes, i missed a close } 00:19:26 {let {{a b} a} -> {let {{a b} a} ... [{let {{a b} [a]}] -> b 00:19:40 thatsnotenglish 00:19:55 but the snazzy part comes from that session where oerjan and cpressey were abusing Haskell 00:20:41 It still looks like unmatched 00:20:47 oh, right, when the snazzy was in the happening 00:21:23 [{let {{[{let {c a} c}] b} [a]}] -> b 00:21:31 unless i missed a } in there too, i keep doing that 00:21:39 IN OTHER WORDS 00:21:47 I gather that's quite the something-or-other 00:21:48 symbols can be expressed 00:22:39 Bizaaro! Bizaaro! Bizaaro! 00:22:57 *pizzaro? 00:23:12 * olsner expresses symbols 00:24:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvW-ZGNjBYc 00:25:26 awesome 00:27:38 now i have to remember enough haskell to implement it 00:29:18 Expr ::= bareword | "{" Expr Expr "}" | "[" Expr "]" 00:29:20 that looks right 00:29:22 ish 00:31:38 Hello Parsec my old friend 00:31:38 right ish != right 00:32:01 i've come to talk to you again 00:32:32 about a parser so soft creeping, bla-bla blah parser something-something 00:36:52 you threw me there for a minute 00:38:47 couldn't be bothered figuring out the proper lyridcs 00:39:12 though I'm pretty sure you can make something completely coherent about parsec parsers to that tune 00:39:25 as coherent as such talk could ever be 00:40:43 hark bark flark flrgblk 00:40:56 flglrlrk 00:41:08 "You can't spell 'Parsec' without 'arse'" 00:41:27 I don't appear to have it installed though, what is this craziness? 00:41:30 I spell parsec using my brain and my hands 00:43:29 maybe with some kind of flatulence input method you could do it with your arse 00:43:40 ohhh do I have to install the damn thing with cabal 00:43:42 * ZOMGMODULES whines 00:43:45 * ZOMGMODULES WHINES 00:44:00 like the opposite of hawking's computer thingy 00:44:14 meh, stop the whining 00:44:41 also: with Cabal or with cabal-install? 00:45:11 and I do wonder why I'm talking at you 00:45:12 maybe not cabal, trying: sudo apt-get install libghc6-parsec3-dev 00:45:18 yeah, why is that? 00:45:23 no clue 00:45:33 I'm awake and have nothing better to do perhaps? 00:45:42 under this nick, I'm like elliott but even more obnoxious 00:45:53 *are* you elliott? 00:46:01 um 00:46:01 YES 00:46:03 I am. 00:46:10 awe kay 00:46:14 elliott: we can't be seen together from now on 00:46:24 -!- elliott has left ("roger that"). 00:47:39 I will have to re-evaluate your existance based on these new facts 00:47:50 *reëvaluate 00:48:23 as will I 00:48:43 good! it will do you none 00:49:20 -!- elliott has joined. 00:51:52 oops 00:51:53 -!- ZOMGMODULES has left. 00:52:23 *are* you elliott? <-- hm probably not "+ ZOMGMODULES (~catseye@adsl-99-92-177-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) has left #esoteric" 00:52:44 olsner, "catseye" 00:52:50 Vorpal: a user name of "catseye" is not exactly hard to fake 00:52:55 olsner, indeed 00:53:11 and I have no idea where elliott would connect from 00:54:52 + [ZOMGMODULES] (~catseye@adsl-99-92-177-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net): Chris Pressey. whois fails badly. on the ip 00:54:59 but I can get that ISP is based in US 00:55:28 whois fails on any subdomain to sbcglobal.net 00:55:35 sense you're making: scant if at all 00:55:36 -!- NOT-ZOMGMODULES has joined. 00:55:44 olsner, heh 00:55:45 me sleep 00:55:45 NEVER HEARD OF HIM 00:55:56 you *do* act like elliott however. 00:56:34 olsner, cya 00:56:41 NOT-ZOMGMODULES: "HIM" is (I believe) some kind of pop music 00:59:42 wait what. Ads in whois result 00:59:50 (from the registrar, but still..) 01:00:11 Harmony In Motion 01:13:53 have mini repl. seems to be behaving as i expect 01:15:05 Now I need to implement the actual hard parts of the evaluator 01:15:45 D'oh, definitely need a photon tracer >_> 01:15:47 SO SLOW 01:15:51 SO INEFFICIENT 01:15:54 SO ... necessary. 01:16:41 Mainly because I can't figure out how to invert that if the photons are of normal orientation but the viewer is reoriented :P 01:18:05 Ohwait, yes I do 8-D 01:18:10 OK, raytracing it is :) 01:18:21 (Going backwards in time) 01:26:34 Gregor, what are you trying to do? 01:26:47 * Sgeo wants there to be a raytracer that does relativity 01:27:19 CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. 01:27:39 Sgeo: there is one. I remember seeing images it made, in the 90's. 01:28:04 Gregor, isn't that something like that in black holes, or is that a common misconception, or am I misremembering something I recently read? 01:28:19 Sgeo: That's just intense time dilation. 01:29:40 -!- calamari has joined. 01:29:49 http://www.photon.at/~werner/bh/gvsim.html 01:29:52 I wanna go inside! 01:30:00 And I want to make my own! 01:30:07 I don't want to write a raytracer ... maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify ... a lot ... 01:30:35 POV-Ray sucks? (Is POV-Ray open source?) 01:30:46 "that I can modify a lot" 01:30:51 POV-Ray does WAY more than I need for this. 01:30:53 And is huge. 01:31:04 modifying someone else's raytracer implementation, always a great way to kill a week or two or ninety-five 01:31:05 I wonder if that guy ever opened up vivid 01:31:07 Aw screw it, I've written ray-tracers, I can write another one X-P 01:31:47 calamari, vivid? 01:32:01 vivid was a ray tracer I used back in the ms-dos days 01:32:16 it was much faster than pov-ray at the time and had better quality 01:32:34 but it was closed 01:33:57 Stephen Coy, Christopher Watkins and Mark Finlay co-authored a book 01:33:57 on Ray Tracing called "Photorealism and Ray Tracing in C". 01:33:57 Distributed free with the book was an example ray tracer called BOB. 01:34:23 The thing is, for what I need, I need a HORRIBLY broken raytracer :P 01:34:38 Gregor, broken? 01:34:39 Why? 01:34:53 I mean, unless you mean broken in that your modifications mess with it 01:35:29 I'm essentially using a raytracer as a backwards photon mapper, but I have to maintain the actual time it takes for photons to get to their destination (as opposed to a conventional raytracer which considers light to be infinitely fast) since time is a physical dimension. 01:35:46 "maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify" ...vs... "I need a HORRIBLY broken raytracer" 01:37:16 "doesn't suck" in the "is relatively modular and modifiable sense" 01:37:23 And yes, modifying a good one into this nonsense would be better. 01:38:12 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:38:36 sounds like you'd be better off starting from scratch hehe 01:39:14 Actually, wait ... argh ... since the photons you're perceiving aren't themselves reoriented, all you would actually see is identical to if you were just slowly moving in one dimension ... 01:39:41 Is it possible to add polarization as well? 01:40:00 Would it be useful to do so? 01:40:59 zzo38: I'm not sure, but considering my mind can barely comprehend what I have already, I don't want to :P 01:41:16 ... reoriented light, standard orientation observer. *brain axplotes* 01:43:01 Simplified, what you see at any given instant is all the photons that hit the point in spacetime represented by your eye at that instant. The fact that the movement of this point is along a different axis than everything else is wholly irrelevant, photons are still photons. 01:44:19 Let's ignore for a moment the fact that the photons are, from your perspective, immobile, and so probably imperceptible >_> 01:44:56 Also let's ignore the fact that if photons are immobile, NOTHING makes sense. 01:45:14 Make it so the angle of the switching between time and space dimensions can be anything 01:46:05 Doesn't make any difference, now you're just /slowly/ experiencing time while sliding /slowly/ in one dimension. 02:11:13 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:11:45 -!- augur has joined. 02:13:17 I'm essentially using a raytracer as a backwards photon mapper, but I have to maintain the actual time it takes for photons to get to their destination [...] <-- wouldn't this just be the length of the ray? 02:24:00 I started writing a raytracer once but never finished it... 02:25:35 for(x=0:100){for(y=0:100){r=Ray(x,y);c=black;for(o:scene)if(r.intersect(o)){c=white;break};plot(x,y,c)}} 02:25:51 * Sgeo just spend $100 of his dad's money 02:25:54 that's pretty much it. well, you have to implement the Ray class, and objects and stuff 02:25:59 Um.. well, my dad spend it, I guess 02:26:11 I think he's expecting me to pay him back.. which I will, I guess 02:27:35 all my objects were spheres, and it's pretty easy to tell when a line has intersected a sphere... hey so why did I never finish it? 02:27:40 NOT-ZOMGMODULES: That is the length of the ray, but remember that time is now a /location/, I thought (incorrectly) that I had to distinguish the parts of the ray corresponding to frames in the animation. 02:27:44 Sgeo: what'd ya buy? 02:28:03 NOT-ZOMGMODULES, sponsorship of Grandroids 02:28:18 Although I'm a bit torn about that extra $25 just to get a thank you in the credits 02:32:07 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc 02:32:57 -!- elliott has joined. 02:33:19 Hi elliott. I just spend an extra $25 on something just so my name would be included 02:33:27 NOT-ZOMGMODULES: hi 02:33:43 hi 02:33:48 Sgeo: TOO MUCH MONEY DERP 02:33:56 wat 02:34:28 elliott: Sgeo just bought real artificial life. I think this makes him a slave owner? 02:34:41 * NOT-ZOMGMODULES SEES WORLD VERY CLEARLY, VERY VERY 02:34:53 I own a cat. 02:34:55 SHE IS MY SLAVE. 02:35:12 NOT-ZOMGMODULES: absolutely 02:35:22 Gregor, you don't torture your cat the way I've tortured norns before... 02:35:24 after what he did to norns, how is he still allowed to adopt virtual life? 02:35:39 I don't think that how you treat your slaves affects whether they're slaves or not... 02:37:33 Hmm 02:37:43 I think I inflicted actual pain only on a very few 02:37:57 Usually it's death or blindness or the like 02:42:27 00:55:56: you *do* act like elliott however. 02:42:28 that's low 02:42:33 i wouldn't say anything like that ever 02:42:35 not even to my worst enemy 02:43:08 01:30:07: I don't want to write a raytracer ... maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify ... a lot ... 02:43:13 Gregor: Dude, raytracers only take a couple thousand of lines :P 02:43:26 elliott: I'm not writing it. Upon further thought the result would be really boring. 02:43:32 Gregor: ...why? 02:43:47 Lemme copy my quote from above ...' 02:44:03 I mean, it's obvious what the result would look like, but it's still a useful intuitive tool. 02:44:09 Simplified, what you see at any given instant is all the photons that hit the point in spacetime represented by your eye at that instant. The fact that the movement of this point is along a different axis than everything else is wholly irrelevant, photons are still photons. 02:44:30 ...well duh, don't simulate PHOTONS with the same reorientation. 02:44:32 All you would see is time frozen as you slide slowly along one axis. 02:44:43 You're meant to pretend you have a magical camera that works by magic. 02:44:45 No, this is unreoriented photons. 02:44:47 Oh. 02:44:50 What about reoriented photons. 02:45:01 That's precisely like looking at somebody reoriented while you're not. 02:45:17 I don't think that how you treat your slaves affects whether they're slaves or not... <-- what if you free them? OMGZEN 02:45:46 Gregor: Yes... the point is that the WHOLE SCENE is reoriented :P 02:45:58 Which is important, because that's what the reoriented view of a 3D reorientation game would look like. 02:46:47 Bleh, fine, I'll write it :P 02:47:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:47:22 -!- augur has joined. 02:48:11 Gregor: Oh, and make sure it can do colours separately of all the photon mess... so that you can identify objects in the scene when reoriented X-D 02:49:58 OK, assuming that photons from your perspective are immobile, and that you carry a lightsource with you through the machine, there's an excuse :P 02:50:09 Gregor: Wut? :P 02:50:20 For why there are reoriented photons to see. 02:50:24 Right :P 02:50:35 Gregor: btw an IRL one of these things is possibly the most disturbing machine i can imagine 02:50:41 8-D 02:50:46 even the idea of some... repeated carpet... 02:50:53 like 02:50:57 an atom-thin slice of carpet 02:51:00 repeated 02:51:01 euuurgh 02:51:29 Gregor: Also, AFAICT, in a still-in-normal-world scene, when you reorient, everything would start moving towards you :P 02:51:48 Gregor: EXERCISE: Figure out what the fuck happens when a reoriented person collides with what is in non-oriented-world a normal wall. 02:52:01 elliott: The universe explodes. 02:52:24 Gregor: A PERFECT IRL machine would do it at the quark level though. 02:52:33 Gregor: So basically, you go through the machine, and emerge in a world without any complete, proper atoms. 02:52:43 elliott: YOUR MOM WOULD DO IT AT THE QUARK LEVEL 02:53:03 THAT'S THE ONLY WAY ANYBODY _CAN_ DO IT WITH YOU 02:53:08 ANYTHING ELSE AND THE SCALE'S ALL WRONG 02:54:03 Gregor: I'm totally nightmare-fueling about this machine now :P 02:55:00 "For Time—in its relativity, brutality and absurdity— is one of "Friday"'s great targets. In an instant day passes to night, and the realism of the bus stop gives way to a surreal blue-screen panorama of a full moon and false city running on loop as Ms. Black rides in the convertible, apparent-heiress to the grand American tradition of high school cruising, that curious space birthed by Cold War highways (themselves relics of our atomic fears 02:55:01 ) in which teenagers first experienced themselves as such." 02:55:02 http://www.theawl.com/2011/03/arms-so-freezy-rebecca-blacks-friday-as-radical-text 02:55:55 ok i have decided... 02:56:00 "onanistic recursion" 02:56:24 i, i, i 02:56:38 ok i have decided to change Bizaaro-Pixley in several ways 02:57:13 it now looks like this: *[*let [[a b] *a]] 02:57:22 NOT-ZOMGMODULES: wow, now it's even more like Nock! 02:57:33 may I suggest replacing * with ' for maximum consuion 02:57:35 sooperfishilly 02:57:47 ' for eval, huh 02:57:50 that would be ironic 02:57:52 and [] with () 02:57:57 '('let ((a b) 'a)) 02:58:01 OUCH 02:58:03 :DDD 02:58:10 perhaps, perhaps 02:58:14 I Can't Believe It's Not Lisp 02:58:33 NOT-ZOMGMODULES: or no no no wait 02:58:35 [] with )( 02:58:40 ')'let ))a b( 'a(( 02:58:44 beautiful 02:58:51 nug 02:58:58 NO 02:59:03 replace * with ( 02:59:08 ( with ' 02:59:12 and ) with > 02:59:29 ('(let ''a b> (a>> 03:00:21 "New engine sends shockwaves through auto industry - 3.5x more efficient, doesn't require cooling system, transmission, or fluids" 03:00:22 or energy. 03:00:25 or a driver. 03:00:29 or matter. 03:00:56 and it discloses to you this one weird old tip to shed belly fat 03:01:06 discovered by a mom? 03:01:17 a WORK AT HOME mom, yes. 03:01:24 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:01:44 from UNBIASED NEWSPAPER 03:01:47 *Advertising website 03:02:00 acai berry! it works so cheap! as seen on fox news! 03:02:07 ok let's stop this before it gets out of hand 03:08:52 "We have a dangerous mission ahead of us." "I understand ... get the ship's counselor." 03:12:28 Gregor: Yes, before a dangerous mission it's important to get some... therapy... 03:12:50 elliott: ST:TNG :P 03:13:37 But I've improved it: "We have a dangerous mission, lives are at risk. Assemble an away team." "Counselor, doctor, you're with me." 03:13:38 Gregor: I WAS TRYING TO IMPLY THAT TROI IS ONLY ON THE BRIDGE BECAUSE PICARD ET AL. FIND HER SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE AND ALSO HAVE RELATIONS WITH HER ON A REGULAR BASIS UNDER THE GUISE OF "THERAPY" 03:13:51 there, happy now that we've thrown british subtlety out of the window in favour of american sledgehammering? 03:14:10 elliott: NUH UH IT'S BECAUSE SHE CARRIES THE RANK OF A LIEUTENANT COMMANDER FOR SOME NEVER-EXPLAINED REASON 03:14:31 Gregor: Because she commands all the crew's... lieutenants... 03:14:33 SORRY 03:14:47 ... perfect :P 03:14:50 *leftenants 03:15:02 elliott: It's still spelled lieutenant 03:15:09 *spelt 03:15:11 SHUT UP 03:15:14 YOU'RE CANADIAN 03:15:15 WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW 03:15:22 leftenant (plural leftenants) 03:15:22 An archaic spelling of lieutenant. 03:15:22 HA 03:15:30 elliott: "archaic" 03:15:38 WELL I'M A CONSERVATIVE 03:15:39 BITCH 03:15:55 hmm, i wonder what force of logic allows lieutenant to be pronounced in the uk way 03:16:19 also the canadian way. that force of logic is called FRENCH 03:16:50 Quebecois, thankyouverymuch 03:17:12 coppro: it's still spelt "fag" 03:17:13 Gregor: they gave the reason for lt com.. she got involved with picard before.. she gave favors, she got favors 03:17:16 or 03:17:20 it's still spelt "french" 03:17:23 dunno which is more offensive/funny 03:17:43 calamari: you mean this is CANON? 8D 03:18:03 not at all, I'm making it up :P 03:18:22 then it's fake canon 03:18:25 10x better 03:18:29 (AKA fanon ;D) 03:18:40 but I'm pretty sure it was canon that they had some kind of relationship inthe past 03:18:51 Uhh, no :P 03:19:33 is there any evidence to suggest picard hasn't had sex with everyone on the enterprise? 03:19:35 i think not 03:19:36 discuss 03:20:00 elliott: I don't think picard is into male klingons 03:20:11 coppro: that's not evidence against 03:20:18 one, there is no evidence he ISN'T into male klingons 03:20:18 No, they're into him BA-DUM 03:20:26 two, you can have sex with people you're not attracted to 03:20:30 evidence discounted 03:20:43 elliott: occam's razor; evidence readmitted 03:20:51 coppro: uhh 03:20:53 coppro: this is star trek 03:21:00 occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis 03:21:01 Jack later served aboard the USS Stargazer under Picard, and the couple became good friends with the captain. Picard later admitted he had fallen in love with Beverly, but did not ever express his feelings because he felt that doing so would betray his friend. <---- lies.. they totally f***ed 03:21:06 evidence rediscounted 03:22:36 yep 03:22:37 i win 03:25:12 -!- joojii has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:27:52 elliott: no; that discount isn't valid in that sector after 3:00 AM 03:28:07 coppro: fuck you, i'm a bear 03:30:31 well 03:30:33 goodnight :) 03:30:45 tswett: i'll talk wrt normish tomorrow 03:30:47 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:48:21 -!- lament has joined. 03:58:30 -!- NOT-ZOMGMODULES has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:00:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:00:58 Is it fine enough measurements if the space factors are in different units that 40 is the normal space value instead of 1000, and where 255 is the maximum? 04:02:09 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:05:06 -!- pumpkin has joined. 04:05:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:16:25 * Sgeo wants to see the pre-6th-edition rules of Magic 04:16:33 I do vaguely remember Interrupts 04:16:46 Yes they did have Interrupts, which are no longer used. 04:17:15 There are various things about the rules (any editions) which I do not like, although there are many good rules, too. 04:17:37 Such as, I do not like they removed mana burn. 04:26:12 I do not even know if this still works in the modern rules: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic_The_Gathering_card_deck_of_programming_language 04:29:35 Do you know this? 04:30:38 -!- augur has joined. 04:33:25 Wait, the body of the first concept wasn't yours? 04:33:28 * Sgeo mindboggles 04:34:22 It was my idea, but I did not write most of the text on that page. 04:36:00 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 04:37:34 I am trying to write a program which estimates values of chess pieces by calculating the resistance between every pair of cells on the board. 04:38:03 resistance? 04:38:52 Yes, the resistance, in ohms. 04:39:07 I know it is stragne but it is an experiment I can try. 04:41:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:50:13 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:57:44 -!- jcp has joined. 05:01:46 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:06:52 is there a good way to compress very short strings of english text? 05:07:18 Like, how short do you mean? 05:22:40 -!- sftp has joined. 05:50:22 shorter than the original message 05:51:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:55:38 I don't know which ways are best. I suppose usually English text consists of letters and spaces, and some punctuation, and some letters/punctuation are less common than others. There is also combinations that might be more likely or less likely than others. 05:59:29 Do you think prime numbers are of any use in estimating values of chess pieces? 06:29:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:39:25 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:41:12 -!- pingveno has joined. 07:15:30 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:51:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:53:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:53:04 Hi :-) 07:53:53 Hi!!!!! 07:54:29 hi... 07:54:36 OK 07:54:51 Hi zzo38, ais523 :-) 07:55:36 OK, do you have anything else to discussion or do you want for something else to be typed? (In case of the second way, you might look at recent logs in case you are interested in it) 08:19:34 * impomatic has a few new dev boards and is trying to figure out how to do something useful with them. 08:22:02 What kind of dev boards do you have? 08:24:53 Arduino, Minimus, Maximus, Altera Max, eZ430, ST7, TI Launchpad, Micropendous3 08:26:08 The trouble with the Minimus and Maximus is they're also used for PS Jailbreak, so most of the stuff I find online is about Jailbreak :-( 08:46:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:49:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:56:14 impomatic, hm, what are Minimus and Maximus then? It seems strange to me some random development boards would be used for jail break. 08:56:36 or do you mean the words are used? 08:56:53 No, the dev boards are used: http://minimususb.com or http://www.teensy.co.uk/Maximus-AVR-USB-v1.2-inc-Case/c17/index.html 08:57:16 impomatic, what would make them more fit for jail breaking, as opposed to other boards? 08:58:32 No sure. They're pretty cheap and built into a USB stick 08:59:05 impomatic, for a development board that sounds impractical. *opens browser to look at how many IO pins they have* 09:00:06 impomatic, wait what, the latter link has AVR in the page and also PIC18F4550 09:00:08 now I'm confused 09:00:32 Minimus appears to have access to all pins. Maximus 1.0 only has access to a few. Not sure about Maximus 1.2 (which is still in the post). 09:01:16 That one confused me too... I'll open it up when it arrives! Maximus 1.0 is definitely AVR. Maximus 1.2 isn't really clear :-) 09:01:56 impomatic, for sake of sanity I hope it isn't PIC! Though I only programmed PIC12 series. I guess PIC18 series is not quite as bad 09:16:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:20:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:23:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:27:55 occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis 09:28:13 so you are saying that you are discounting occam's razor as not being the simplest explanation? 09:39:07 -!- Zuu has joined. 09:40:08 @tell elliott TV TROPES INSANITY CONTINUES: I swear they've started filtering out swearwords. 09:40:09 Consider it noted. 09:44:31 Vorpal: TI also has one built-into-USB-stick MSP430 series devel-board, https://estore.ti.com/EZ430-F2013-MSP430-USB-Stick-Development-Tool-P800.aspx 09:45:33 Vorpal: The "more information" page says it has "14 user accessible pins"; here's a pic: http://focus.ti.com/graphics/tool/ez430-f2013.jpg 09:46:26 (That F2013 chip is quite a small one.) 09:56:47 "Erdős may instead be exemplifying the “Lazarus Effect’: according to this list he has published 34 papers since 1999. Allowing 2–3 years as a typical upper bound on gestation for a journal paper, this would seem to indicate a fair bit of effort since his death in 1996." 09:56:57 (http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/why-is-everything-named-after-gauss/) 09:57:45 Then it must be someone else with the same name or using a pseudonym 09:58:34 (That F2013 chip is quite a small one.) <-- quite. 09:58:35 i would _guess_ it is people adding his name as a joke, because of erdős numbers 09:58:54 That could be it, too. 09:59:17 some of the papers might still be based on his work, perhaps 09:59:48 Maybe it is. 10:04:11 fizzie, I have to say I'm more used to huge development boards, where you have hundreds of pins for various purposes around. 10:04:21 I have a F2013 here. 10:06:23 http://www.gaussfacts.com/random 10:07:05 oklopol: especially for you ^ 10:09:49 Vorpal: Those tend to cost a bit more, too; I guess the cheapest end ones tend to be rather spartan. 10:10:25 right 10:10:39 fizzie, I mostly used development boards at university. 10:10:58 fizzie, often with fancy debugging over JTAG interfaces and what not 10:12:32 lol: http://youtu.be/-jm942TrsK4 10:19:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:20:16 The DSP devboards we had were rather on the large side, too. Well, at least compared to these microcontroller boards. http://www.spectrumdigital.com/product_info.php?&products_id=100 is one of them. 10:25:30 * oerjan reads today's iwc and recalls doing the exact opposite of that 10:25:37 *iwc annotation 10:26:51 that is, crumpling foil wrapper to turn it into little "crystal" balls 10:27:29 this obviously means i must be dmm's secret nemesis. 10:34:07 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:35:43 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:55:01 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:55:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:57:38 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:03:56 "Gauss classified the finite groups. When he was finished with the simple ones, there were none left." 11:03:58 :D 11:08:01 "Gauss has an Erdos number of -1." why isn't there a gauss number 11:09:35 I'm confused, because I almost certainly have an Erdős number, but don't know what it is 11:10:01 (also, when I loaded up Character Map to copy-paste the ő, I found it was already selected so I didn't have to go look for it, which is nice; I must have had to type Erdős before) 11:11:32 fizzie, most dev boards I have seen had sockets for various different CPUs from the same family. I think I saw an AVR one that had like 14 or 15 different CPU sockets on it. 11:11:38 ṏ 11:11:40 What. 11:12:32 Phantom_Hoover: the pinouts are usually the same, it's just that the packages differ in size 11:12:53 so you'll have like concentric pinouts on the pcb where the leads go straight through the pads 11:15:06 ais523: there are websites that give you an upper bound 11:15:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:16:01 I can't find the 14-socket one atm, but this one is also pretty impressive in terms of number of IO pinshttp://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kamami.pl/published/publicdata/BTC10/attachments/SC/products_pictures/stk600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kamami.pl/index.php%3Fukey%3Dproduct%26productID%3D46340%26did%3D34%26view%3Dprintable&usg=__XDa0lEfhhT8nIvazCos8fF5LX2I=&h=275&w=300&sz=37&hl=en&start=0 11:16:01 &zoom=1&tbnid=gvJX_07o7Jp2fM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=135&ei=bj-gTar3LYrZtAa1kPCVBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSTK600%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:unofficial%26biw%3D1556%26bih%3D667%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=289&vpy=332&dur=292&hovh=215&hovw=235&tx=86&ty=103&oei=bj-gTar3LYrZtAa1kPCVBw&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0: 11:16:04 argh the url 11:16:08 was it that long... 11:16:25 well, here is a direct link: http://www.kamami.pl/published/publicdata/BTC10/attachments/SC/products_pictures/stk600.jpg 11:16:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:18:43 XD 11:18:50 Phantom_Hoover, ? 11:19:23 The TV Tropes So Bad It's Horrible pages have fanfic divided into *7* alphabetical subsections. 11:19:58 http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2735 is not quite the 14-socket one either. But it has a respectable 8 CPU sockets. I used that one at university. I have no clue why it has two of each size of CPU socket. Possibly for dual-CPU development? 11:20:10 Since the output ports are not duplicated... 11:22:10 Gauss can get to the other side of a Mbius strip. 11:24:43 "Gauss can comb Poincar's hairy balls" what :D 11:24:57 oklopol, you get that, surely? 11:24:58 Heh, I got that one too. 11:25:03 i get it 11:25:08 And by "got" I mean "received from the random-lister page". 11:25:24 but that was kinda 11:25:33 I think it was kinda oko. 11:25:47 You're all about hairy balls, aren't you? 11:25:51 yes, i agree, it was kinda stupid 11:26:02 well i love balls 11:38:35 there should be webpages like that gauss thing for more specific topics 11:39:41 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]). 11:41:44 gauss can construct a nonplanar graph such that no subdivisions of K_5 appear as a subgraph, and every subgraph that is a subdivision of K_{3,3} has itself a planar embedding 11:45:26 gauss can construct a subset S of 1^* such that for every problem L subset {0, 1}^* for which there exists a nondeterministic turing machine A and a polynomial p such that L is exactly the set of words w for which there exist an accepting run of A of length p(|w|), there also exists a function g in FP such that u is in S if and only if g(s) is in L 11:45:31 erm 11:45:46 last thing is backwards 11:46:13 .., there also exists a function g in FP such that s is in L if and only if g(s) is in S 11:46:49 (that's a stronger theorem than i proved yesterday but if you look at the proof you note that S doesn't actually need to be in NP) 11:47:09 or was it yesteryesterday 11:48:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Insanity is the best policy.). 11:48:54 i should make my own gauss page, drop gauss and call it "false things that are close to a true thing" 11:48:59 hilarity would ensue 11:50:40 but i suppose they should start with an existential quantifier (replacing the current gauss quantifier "gauss can X") 11:50:59 so that you have a clear impossibility you can laugh at 11:51:12 like a single totally crazy object like that S there 11:53:14 i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar 11:54:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:54:28 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:54:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 11:54:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:55:56 i hate you guys 11:56:28 oerjan: come play mangle the theorem with me 12:01:28 gauss can construct an algebra with underlying set S and a unary operation * such that there exist elements e != f such that both e and f are identity elements with respect to * 12:06:49 Well, off to Venice. 12:07:02 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:07:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:10:11 klop: how does he do it? 12:10:40 how should i know 12:11:13 especially as the proof that it's impossible takes about 10 characters 12:11:26 or i guess 6 12:15:37 Wenn man auf einem Taschenrechner 707 eingibt und den Taschenrechner umdreht, erscheint das Wort "LOL". Addiert man dann zu diesem "LOL" ein weiteres, dann ist das Ergebnis "hihi". 12:15:44 haha 12:15:56 funny 12:16:09 my algebra joke was funnier though 12:16:42 oklopol: i didn't realize it was a joke, i thought it was really truth for some very odd definition of "algebra" 12:16:56 no usual definition 12:17:08 operation = * has type S x S -> S 12:17:37 * :: (a, a) -> a ? 12:17:38 e identity = e * x = x * e = e for all x in S 12:17:51 what are a in there 12:17:59 S is the underlying set 12:18:28 because a \in S. 12:18:41 obviously (S, S) -> S would be an operation on sets 12:18:45 say, intersection. 12:19:24 i just assumed you used (A, B) notation instead of A x B, it makes more sense 12:19:29 but okay 12:19:32 then the answer is no 12:19:45 why would (a, a) go to a? 12:20:11 oklopol: because multiply(x, y) has two parameters and one result. 12:20:36 yes, and yet multiply(a, a) is not necessarily a 12:20:51 except when gauss does it 12:21:22 http://learnyouahaskell.com/types-and-typeclasses#type-variables 12:21:48 have a read from a website i helped create, it has nice pictures. 12:22:32 so you did mean SxS by (S,S) 12:22:50 and a was just S 12:23:22 no, a is the type of elements from S. it is not S. 12:23:37 they have different meta-data. 12:23:47 in mathematical notation you would say S x S -> S 12:23:52 if you want to have an artificial difference, of course you can have that, but there's really no need for that. 12:24:14 no need, but i'm just telling you why i denoted it differently 12:24:45 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:24:47 sure 12:25:22 in any case, yes, * :: (a, a) -> a, where a is the type of elements of S 12:25:26 that's what a binary op is 12:26:01 i prefer to think of it as a subset of the cartesian product of S^2 and S such that each element of S^2 has a unique image 12:28:04 you mean well-defined binary operator 12:28:15 i mean a fucking function from S^2 to S 12:28:30 if it's not well-defined it can yield results that are not a, or not be defined at all 12:28:33 which is fun sometimes 12:28:51 also is a fucking function like an orgy in a church with candles and stuff 12:28:55 -!- coppro has joined. 12:29:01 because that sounds fun too 12:29:04 uhhuh. and i guess it could also be an elephant given the right isomorphism. 12:29:13 :D 12:29:17 i guess 12:32:01 you know, they say a good scientist can take a single dot on a blackboard and extrapolate it into an elephan 12:32:02 t 12:32:49 gauss can extrapolate it into a mastodon 12:38:46 riemann can extrapolate it into a mouse 12:51:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:54:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:26:45 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:26:55 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:23:51 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:34:16 -!- elliott has joined. 14:35:24 05:06:52: is there a good way to compress very short strings of english text? 14:35:24 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 14:35:26 huffmand 14:35:28 *huffman 14:35:29 duh 14:35:30 or similar 14:37:27 09:27:55: occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis 14:37:27 09:28:13: so you are saying that you are discounting occam's razor as not being the simplest explanation? 14:37:29 :D 15:04:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:06:23 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:21:19 elliott: how dare you insult Occam? :P 15:21:28 tswett: in the context of star trek 15:21:37 Ah. Go ahead, then. 15:21:46 You have my blessings. Tentatively. 15:21:52 So, elliott, guess what day it is! 15:21:55 It's tomorrow! 15:21:55 I feel strangely... blessed, somehow. 15:22:01 tswett: Wow!!!! 15:22:06 Jump on an altar and see if it's true. 15:22:13 Everyone is here... in the future! http://everyoneishereinthefuture.com/one.html 15:23:17 tswett: nope, I checked. It's still today 15:23:52 Everyone is... no longer here... in the past. 15:23:54 *Nobody is 15:23:58 coppro: but today is Friday (speaking in terms of yesterday), meaning today, Saturday, must be tomorrow. 15:24:06 And Sunday comes after. 15:24:25 Sunday: the most extreme day of the week. 15:24:35 Why made this? 15:24:59 Sgeo: are you speaking of a person known as Why who seems to have made something? 15:25:15 Sgeo: Yes. 15:25:28 tswett: "Why" is an abbreviation for "why the lucky stiff". 15:25:35 The this in question is Everyone is here... in the future! http://everyoneishereinthefuture.com/one.html. 15:25:50 elliott, but the question _also_ sounds like a weird grammatical ... oddity 15:26:49 Oh, he's the guy that made that poignant guide to Ruby. 15:26:53 What in Jebus' name 15:27:00 Gregor: WHY 15:27:05 Is he trying to make a point, or just smoking a lot of pot? 15:27:25 Gregor: Everyone is here in the future! 15:28:06 Also: 15:28:12 Everyone is here in the future EXCEPT FOR WHY 15:28:14 lololol 15:28:34 He just SKIPPED AHEAD INTO THE EVEN FURTHER FUTURE 15:33:15 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:40:58 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:44:00 Gregor: http://www.tenshu.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/2007-07-29-terminator-02-large21.png <-- GUI screen :P 15:45:13 elliott: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS 15:45:41 Gregor: http://www.tenshu.net/terminator/ 15:47:06 SLOWEST LOADING PAGE EVER YESSSSSSSS 15:51:27 are there version control systems where the changesets form a category (a cs is an arrow)? 15:52:38 darcs? 15:54:38 hmm i was thinking of something else 15:54:48 basically of being able to reach any combination of changesets 15:57:36 like say you'd take any set of changes, and it would generate code that is valid 15:58:08 maybe it wouldn't do much (e.g. define functions which don't get called) but it would still be correct code that does what you want it to (hence you only selected those changesets) 15:59:23 that is pretty much the goal of darcs's theory of patches 15:59:26 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:59:41 no, the goal of darcs' theory of patches is to look reasonable if you don't look too closely 16:00:19 Mathnerd314: cool, how is that different from e.g. what bzr does? 16:01:32 I don't know bzr, so I don't know 16:02:16 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:05:44 but git stores files instead of changesets, so the idea doesn't really arise 16:05:54 yeah git is stupid 16:07:23 see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory 16:08:25 lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri796Hx8las 16:08:58 question "plz compare hg to perforce and are you gonna use hg?" answer: "at google we are unique in that we have one giant repository for everything." 16:11:40 That ... is unique. 16:11:41 Mathnerd314: reading, thanx 16:11:51 -!- sftp has joined. 16:11:51 Gregor: yeah, lol. 16:12:03 elliott: THEY NEED SCAPE🐐 16:12:05 Gregor: probably the worst google talk i've seen. 16:12:13 Gregor: What, patch theory? 16:12:21 elliott: Google 16:12:35 elliott: Oh yeah, you have cheater00 blocked, don'tcha :P 16:12:37 Gregor: and they don't seem to have sandwiches there, which they had on all talks i've been to 16:13:21 elliott: THEY NEED 🐐 SANDWICHES 16:13:27 Gamwiches. 16:15:00 Mathnerd314: that looks really cool 16:15:32 Mathnerd314: but what if i have one changeset A which defines s_list, and another which adds pasta to s_list 16:15:40 Mathnerd314: that one is called B 16:15:56 Mathnerd314: and i ONLY apply B. will that define s_list with the sole element of pasta? 16:16:09 Gregor: HMPH 16:16:54 Gregor: what is this unicode character you are using? 16:16:57 Gregor, 🐐 <-- whoa, that shows up as [01F410], which is quite a bit longer than usual. What is it supposed to be? 16:17:46 Vorpal: too slow! :p 16:17:47 🐐 regrets your inability to render him. 16:18:29 Gregor, point me to a font that has it. 16:18:39 and that I could get on linux 16:19:54 Vorpal: To my knowledge there is no font that supports it yet, but it is in Unicode so nyaa. 16:20:09 Gregor, so you can't see it either? 16:20:18 Gregor, so what is it supposed to be? 16:20:26 It's GOAT. 16:20:40 My 🐐 has a 🐐ee. 16:20:51 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:21:46 huh, gogling for it turns up nothing relevant. Only a handful hits. And in all cases it is memory addresses or MAC addresses instead. 16:21:49 Gregor, so wtf 16:22:20 Gregor, which unicode version should I look in for this? 16:22:20 Your refusal to support the new era of Unicode GOAT disappoints me. 16:22:36 Gregor, wait, is this from the private use area? 16:22:53 ... no, that's not part of Unicode X_X 16:22:58 right 16:23:07 Gregor, is this in version 6 or version 7? 16:23:10 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f410/index.htm 16:23:13 second google result for "unicode goat" 16:23:18 vorpal is either a liar or can't type two words 16:23:53 elliott, I googled for 1f410... (and U+1f410 and so on). Weird I got no hits on that 16:24:00 For what it's worth, it's also the first result for "u+1f410" 16:24:49 wait, I typed an extra zero at the start. Which should be equivalent. And was how text rendering showed it here (probably rounds up to even number of hex digits) 16:25:24 elliott, are there other animals around that code point or what? 16:25:26 does it find the page if you search without the zero? 16:25:27 It's certainly not Google-equivalent. 16:25:39 Vorpal: it's a zodiac sign. 16:25:52 cheater00, yep it finds it then 16:25:56 Gregor, aha 16:26:50 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f3e9/index.htm <-- another zodiac sign 16:27:31 Err, that's an emoji 16:27:34 :P 16:29:13 NO 16:29:16 I was born under that sign. 16:31:27 Gregor was also born in the Year of the Whorehouse. 16:31:31 *Chinese Year 16:34:24 That's "love hotel" 16:37:21 Gregor: No, love hotel is the zodiac sign, silly. 16:45:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng 16:46:00 -!- lament has joined. 16:57:45 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:02:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:04:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:04:48 hi oerjan 17:05:08 g'day 17:05:09 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 17:05:16 @messages 17:05:17 elliott said 2h 20m 36s ago: Is blatant, persistent lying a bannable offence days? 17:05:38 wat 17:05:41 i don't even remember typing that 17:05:46 no. that's not even grammatical. 17:06:16 * oerjan ponders if _someone_ didn't know that lambdabot could give messages in public 17:07:00 alternatively it _could_ be that the message is self-referential 17:07:19 let's assume the latter for the peace of the channel. 17:08:26 -!- oerjan has left. 17:09:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:09:23 ho hum 17:09:23 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 17:09:28 @messages 17:09:28 lying_scum said 29s ago: Yes, that may be so. 17:09:43 elliott: looks like lambdabot is easy to fool 17:10:12 (possibly leaving the channel before changing nick was excessive) 17:10:50 actually i also wanted to check that lambdabot accepted privmsges outside the channel, so no. 17:11:58 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:16:31 `addquote [After a long monologue] i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar 17:16:35 357) [After a long monologue] i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar 17:18:00 haha 17:21:13 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:21:39 -!- sftp has joined. 17:22:42 oerjan: do you think fogcreek could be a good place to work? 17:23:12 oerjan: so now, how about a game of mangle-the-theorem? 17:24:32 maybe. 17:24:36 :D 17:24:41 i love you 17:24:47 oh 17:24:53 you were answering cheater00 weren't you 17:24:55 :( 17:25:07 * oklopol sheds tear 17:25:09 i didn't even notice his message actually 17:25:13 ! 17:25:20 i love you 17:25:21 :D 17:25:31 oklopol: i could play with you :p 17:25:38 yes he pinged me but somehow my brain assumed that was just the "haha" message i'd already read 17:25:51 also, i have no idea what fogcreek is 17:26:07 what 17:26:09 really? 17:26:21 yes 17:26:30 um 17:26:33 joel spolsky? 17:26:36 joel on software? 17:26:38 stack overflow? 17:26:41 fogbugz? kiln? 17:26:51 ok i know the first three there 17:26:56 so is that his firm? 17:27:01 yes 17:27:14 i posted a link to their "work for us" ad 17:27:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng 17:27:47 i'm definitely not the person to ask, anyway. 17:27:59 why? 17:28:06 it's pretty hard to find a nontrivial one that fits in an irc message 17:28:16 if they said "hey oerjan, come work for us" would you do it? 17:28:28 unlikely. 17:28:39 especially if it means going to the US 17:28:49 oerjan: we have a professor spot opening afaik 17:29:33 oerjan: say their offices were in a big city near to where you live 17:29:40 oerjan: would that change anything? 17:29:59 i don't _really_ know who they are, beyond presumably running stack overflow. 17:30:19 i am also not really a programmer. 17:30:31 what are you then? 17:30:51 my education is mathematics. 17:30:57 so's mine 17:33:12 what if they needed a mathematician 17:34:30 lol 17:34:40 how the fuck do you "need" a mathematician :D 17:35:41 well, say you're doing something like realtime and need some differential equations solved 17:35:51 or need someone to help you implement a kalman filter 17:36:07 or need someone to tell you how to optimize your search algorithm 17:40:02 my former coauthor rustad did manage to get a job in the oil industry, i think he's mostly doing numerical simulations 17:40:44 i would like to make a complaint about the use of "manage" in that sentece 17:40:46 *sentence 17:41:15 well, as someone with mainly math education 17:41:34 (he did take a few courses on petroleum simulation though) 17:43:27 also i don't see what's wrong with that "manage" 17:45:10 oerjan: well i'd've rephrased "had to get an inferior job at some stupid oil thingie" 17:45:20 managed sounds like he actually wanted to 17:45:35 oh right 17:45:49 yeah he did sort of give up on staying at university 17:46:17 there weren't enough openings 17:48:25 it's sad that the society tries to force even the intelligent people to do meaningless shit 18:05:26 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:43:09 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:56:51 -!- olsner has joined. 19:01:44 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:22:20 http://placekitten.com/ 19:34:59 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:37:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:38:28 -!- sftp has joined. 19:55:09 http://software.jessies.org/terminator/ 19:55:19 i almost thought elliott had been involved in this 19:55:22 turns out its elliott hughs 19:55:23 nothurd 19:55:29 hird 19:58:17 -!- elliott has joined. 19:58:27 augur: i've actually used terminator and some other software by him. 19:58:32 (evergreen, lwm) 19:58:41 THE SKYNET IS YOUR FAULT 19:58:53 elliott: YOU AHVE MAGIC D: 19:59:06 also, hey dude 19:59:51 oerjan: pls make http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 less ugly and unreadable 20:00:00 is that 20:00:04 (less ugly) and (unreadable) 20:00:10 or less (ugly and unreadable) 20:00:24 latter 20:00:26 obviously 20:00:33 just making sure! 20:00:43 never know if you want your wikis like your programing languages 20:01:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:02:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:04:36 IS NOT UGLY. 20:05:50 it is 20:05:59 the paragraph spacing is all off because of the line height being off 20:06:02 because of subscripts and superscripts 20:06:18 see first two paragraphs in computational class section 20:06:22 oerjan: do you like my new user page 20:06:25 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ehird 20:06:52 elliott: RECENT DIFFS ARE KIND OF HARD TO READ 20:06:55 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:07:06 wow that's pretty 20:07:13 oerjan: here's the lowdown: FUCK HTML 20:07:15 well 20:07:17 more precisely 20:07:19 FUCK MEDIAWIKI'S IDEA OF HTML 20:07:26 * elliott expands his invention list 20:08:02 elliott: will you be reinventing the web? 20:08:16 olsner: what, in @? 20:09:32 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:09:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:10:17 fucking html is actually a good idea 20:11:04 (said he, noticing that tim berners-lee has just signed on to freenode.) 20:13:39 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:30:32 -!- hiato has joined. 20:31:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:31:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:33:45 elliott: I fear you're overusing [[Category:Shameful]]; the more things it's on, the less the impact 20:34:17 ais523: that's my language! 20:34:36 ais523: if I didn't mark it shameful I'd have to commit seppuku or something 20:34:46 BUT OK FINE YOU WIN 20:35:44 [[Category:Shameful]] was funnier when it was only on one language 20:36:49 ais523: well, it's hard to argue it doesn't belong on FURscript 20:37:17 ais523: and, errr, it looks like the author of BrainFNORD added it to theirs 20:37:32 if people are adding it to their own langs, what is the world coming to? 20:37:35 furscript, a language for furries? 20:38:13 i'll remove it from brainfnord, it's only as shameful as Ook! 20:38:26 PH's brain-bricking is sufficient punishment for that, we don't need it to be marked shameful too 20:38:31 augur: it appears to be just a list of random commands 20:39:01 i love how every time i edit my user page it completely clogs up recent changes 20:39:04 BECAUSE AIS523 BROKE THE PREVIEW BUTTON 20:39:39 at least i've produced the best nesting of html tags ever 20:39:39 elliott: it triggers on attempts even to show the source code, though 20:39:43 b > i > u > a > font 20:40:02 ais523: erm, just clicking to edit the page doesn't, I don't think? 20:40:16 it does if you have preview on edit turne don 20:40:17 *turned on 20:40:23 well turn it off then :D 20:40:27 and on a wiki like Esolang, it's normally a very useful feature 20:41:57 Well, too late to back out of paying $100 20:42:49 BECAUSE AIS523 BROKE THE PREVIEW BUTTON <-- what! 20:42:55 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 20:43:09 oerjan: I didn't break it, I changed it so that it was impossible for a page to change the entire edit interface 20:43:21 which prevents ehird's page breaking everyone else's attempts to edit it 20:43:37 *my 20:43:49 nobody else uses that feature :) 20:44:12 hmm, I just realised calling you ehird there was not a mistake but technically correct 20:44:20 as the user page belongs to ehird 20:44:24 even if the IRC persion is elliott 20:44:32 persion = person version 20:47:26 ais523: um so previewing other pages won't clog up recent changes? 20:47:39 oerjan: previewing any page doesn't clog up recent changes 20:47:43 even elliott's 20:48:00 the difference is that elliott's page no longer replaces the entire interface when previewed, and he claims that's broken as it doesn't look like he wants it to look then 20:48:58 ah so it's only that he cannot see the result properly without saving 20:51:40 well turn it off then :D <-- that's a personal preference, which i incidentally _do_ have set 20:52:53 lol: 20:52:56 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_%28Programmiersprache%29 20:53:47 "E, the secure distributed pure-object platform and p2p scripting language." 21:00:41 Since when is E a scripting language? 21:01:22 olsner: what are you like as a person 21:01:53 SCRIPTVM EST 21:03:12 oklopol: "what are you? like a person?" yes, I'm very similar to a person :D 21:03:18 È SCRITTO 21:03:25 or so I like to believe, anyway 21:03:54 point of fact: 21:03:56 olsner: you seem to have made a tokenization error 21:04:08 worfs first language (maybe second, but certainly native) was almost certainly belarussan 21:04:33 oklopol: yeah, thought it was funnier tokenized my way, so I retokenized it 21:04:50 olsner: YOU MISSED A WORD 21:05:21 the difference is that elliott's page no longer replaces the entire interface when previewed, and he claims that's broken as it doesn't look like he wants it to look then 21:05:27 ais523: umm, to clarify, it looks NOTHING like the result 21:05:32 oerjan: no, I removed it 21:05:33 i would be fine if it just showed it and then the edit view 21:05:38 but it just turns into a mess 21:05:49 ah so it's only that he cannot see the result properly without saving 21:05:50 yes 21:11:15 http://demos.sonivoxmi.com/sonicimplantssoundfontenstrings.mp3 <-- I'm trying to decide if this demo reel is good enough to be worth dropping the money on the soundfont ... 21:11:28 let's see 21:11:42 It's ... not great ... but for strings, not terrible. 21:12:02 it sounds like a really nice DOS game theme song 21:12:40 The strings sound a bit artificial to me. 21:12:45 Though I'd be amazed if they DIDN'T. 21:13:03 Strings are a bitch X_X 21:13:41 How much does the soundfont cost 21:13:43 * Sgeo throws some "" at Gregor 21:13:56 $49.95? 21:14:13 Converting from Gregor-money that's like 3 cents, go for it! [UNICODE TROLL FACE] 21:15:22 I think I heard that some people at the acoustics lab are dabbling with physics-based string instrument synthesis. I have no idea how good their things are; probably not very. They might not have any demos available. 21:15:41 fizzie: Well, better than the state of speech to text. 21:15:44 ;DDDDD 21:16:03 They have a kantele synthesis thing, which I guess is pretty obscure. 21:16:28 (No new papers on that after 2005, so I guess it's not an active project.) 21:16:44 Ah well. More active than speech-to-text. 21:17:06 "Research and synthesis of the tanbur, a traditional Turkish long-necked lute, the ud, a short-necked arabic lute, and the Renaissance lute." 21:17:46 the finnish can't ele 21:19:10 I just had a guitar remade to be more ud-like 21:19:53 fizzie: you mean karplus strong synthesis? 21:20:20 Zwaarddijk: what did they change? 21:21:24 switched the neck to rosewood, removed the frets, filled the slots with something, polished it 21:21:52 of course, normal uds have shorter necks relative to the body size, and double course strings 21:22:06 (oh, flatwound strings from now on, to reduce wear on the neck) 21:22:18 it's a stratocaster copy 21:24:34 asdfghjkl 21:26:01 "He left the site for a few days in October 2008, following a bitter feud over whether the Spanish Inquisition constituted British comedy." 21:27:23 i don't see how that is an oud 21:27:28 it's just a fretless guitar? 21:27:40 flatwounds are fun 21:27:45 don't sound so nice tho 21:28:12 the whole spanish institution was just a british joke that got very out of hand 21:28:18 *inquisition 21:28:25 cheater00: it is more like an oud now than before, though 21:28:29 * oerjan swats his hands -----### 21:28:38 cheater00: I play a lot of jazz, so flatwounds fit in that style 21:28:44 does the rosewood make so much difference? 21:29:20 well, maple isn't good on fretless guitars 21:29:44 so a fretless guitar is immediately an oud? :p 21:29:47 not really 21:29:50 but it does get much closer 21:30:10 i thought a defining thing for the oud was the thick neck 21:30:13 instruments aren't really a discretely classifiable all the time 21:30:34 cheater00: I think rather something more physically accurate, or at least more complicated; but I don't really know what they've done. Short description for the latest kantele paper says: "Two algorithms for simulating tension modulated strings (e.g. kantele strings) are presented: a spatially distributed waveguide model and a finite difference model. The waveguide model is essentially the same as below, whereas the finite difference model uses time-domain inte 21:30:34 rpolation for modulating the wave velocities. Stability issues for both models are discussed." 21:30:48 in some classificcations, what's considered distinct for ouds is picked strings + fretless 21:31:16 which is not very common - ouds and shamisen, basically? 21:31:23 fizzie: sounds like karplus-strong to me 21:31:39 oh wait, i read waveguide as waveshaper for some reason 21:31:40 nm 21:31:43 and the shamisen is distinct by having cat- or dogskin 21:32:12 where is the skin used? 21:32:24 but no, fretless instruments are not uncommon 21:32:34 The "below" refers to: "Nonlinear kantele strings are modeled using a waveguide string with spatially distributed fractional delay filters. When the delay time of the fractional delay filters is varied, tension modulation nonlinearity can be simulated." So I guess it's sort-of related in any case. 21:33:02 cheater00: most fretless are bowed, though 21:33:10 which is the distinct thing about the oud 21:33:41 the shamisen is a bit like a banjo: it's stretched around a frame 21:33:58 the bridge rests on the skin 21:34:47 plucked fretless insturments are more common in the far east 21:36:23 oh ok right 21:36:32 and ya they are 21:37:01 my recent musical instrument discovery was the nyckelharpa 21:37:21 those are cool. 21:37:38 yeah my buddy is an expert on those 21:37:48 he's got like a zillion cds on them 21:38:03 and he lent me one, he said i'm not so bad for someone who never held a bow in his life 21:39:18 currently I am practicing a lot of microtonal sales 21:39:20 *scales 21:39:30 nyckelharpas are microtonal 21:39:31 :D 21:39:42 -!- lament has joined. 21:39:54 cheater00: that's up to how you tune them, no? 21:39:55 but really.. with fretless.. you're mostly doing glissandos, and listening to the beats between your voicings and other people's 21:39:57 hm 21:40:02 you don't tune nyckelharpas. 21:40:12 they have fixed scales. they're sort-of fretted. 21:40:16 yeah but 21:40:18 the strings 21:40:26 I guess you tune those to pure fifths or somesuch? 21:40:27 there's only one right way to tune the strings 21:40:43 EDAE or something like that, i don't remember 21:40:47 hm, are the fixed scales just intonation? 21:40:57 what do you mean? 21:41:12 it has keys, a keyboard, you can't re-tune a single key 21:41:37 well like 21:41:40 are the keys *pre-set* 21:41:48 yep 21:41:49 to be just-intonationish? 21:41:52 oh 21:41:56 no, not necessarily 21:42:09 depends on the harpa you have, there's no exactly single set standard 21:42:22 there isn't even a single standard for the keyboard, which is a problem in its own right 21:42:23 what do you mean by them being microtonal then? 21:42:33 you learn a fingering technique on one and it doesn't work on another one 21:42:51 i mean that they have tones in steps smaller than the semitone 21:42:59 ok 21:43:06 so roughly how is that scale constructed? 21:43:08 that's my definition of microtonality 21:43:23 I include any thing that is not exactly 12-tet in microtonal music 21:43:25 ti dunno 21:43:35 i think it's just traditional 21:43:47 because like, even if you have quartertones, the usual use of those in music that has them would be the neutral second 21:43:48 you know those things already existed in the 14th century 21:43:55 so you seldom actually use the quartertone 21:44:22 is it microtonal then? 21:44:35 if the main non-standard step is three quartertones, not one? 21:44:41 well yes it's not 12 tone equal temp 21:44:47 yeah but like 21:44:50 is 7-tet microtonal? 21:44:56 no it's not equal temp 21:45:07 it is an equal temperament 21:45:10 it's some weird wacky tuning i don't know 21:45:14 i don't think it is 21:45:19 ah, the harp 21:45:20 right 21:45:22 nyckelharp 21:45:26 yeah those aren't equal temp 21:45:38 equal temps were basically only theoretically known until the 19th c. 21:45:48 when we got the technology to actually tune them 21:46:02 yes 21:46:29 anyways, re: microtonality, there's a bunch of good just-inotnation intervals outside of 12-tet that sound good in rock and blues and jazz and so on 21:46:34 the seventh harmonic is one of those 21:46:48 it's about a sixth-tone flat from the dominant seventh 21:47:26 you know i find with fretless it's less important to think about scales 21:47:31 and more important to think about clusters 21:47:43 clusters? 21:47:51 yeah it's basically a way to put your fingers 21:47:54 ah 21:47:55 so that they support eachother 21:47:59 I'd never use that term like that 21:48:04 and you repeatedly can hit the same intervals 21:48:19 (I normally use it to signify stacked second-chords) 21:48:29 ah 21:48:31 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:48:35 well i'm mostly talking out of my ass :D 21:48:43 so i might be using the term wrongly 21:48:54 scales decompose into parts, though 21:48:57 but like, if you're doing fretless, you end up doing a lot of small glissandos anyways 21:48:58 stacked second chords? 21:49:02 that one can learn to repeat a bit like such "clusters" 21:49:16 oklopol: what you get if you strike your hand down on a piano on keys that are next to each other 21:49:19 you mean like AHC#D#F 21:49:26 and the important bit is to quickly hit a sonorous or discordant chord quickly 21:49:26 k 21:49:29 yeah 21:50:19 for a while I actually had my guitar tuned so I'd easily get clusters 21:50:27 with full on dist, it was a pretty neat thing 21:50:36 could work out nice in some avant-punk style 21:50:48 my tuning is A Eb A Eb A Eb A 21:51:16 seriously? 21:51:19 yes 21:51:24 why? 21:51:33 -!- elliott has joined. 21:51:34 that makes ower chords a tad awkward 21:51:40 it's the best i've come up with 21:51:44 hah 21:51:46 what are ower chords 21:51:52 *power chords 21:51:53 they're like power chords 21:51:54 my p-key sucs 21:51:58 but with one finger less 21:52:01 my k-key too 21:52:05 i used AEADGCF previously 21:52:06 lol 21:52:26 Zwaarddijk: i just use A Eb A chords 21:52:29 mostly 21:52:43 oklopol: what styles do you play? 21:53:04 nothing currently, but hopefully starting a new project soon 21:53:20 what styles interest you, then? 21:53:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK-JiyDbp7E here's my current favorite band prolly 21:54:04 nice 21:54:11 mainly that stuff. 21:54:13 oklopol is potatoes 21:54:44 then I understand why you'd tune your guitar in tritones 21:54:53 although i also like playing simple stuff 21:55:24 I have considered switching to a seven-string string-set on my guitar, because the high e sounds a bit too muffled now 21:55:25 Zwaarddijk: it's not guaranteed we'll get it to work even for metal, but i like trying crazy things. 21:57:01 I would like to introduce some microtonal harmonies into all kinds of genres. 21:57:11 but another dream I have is to arrange a lot of death metal classics for big band 21:57:24 and vice versa, arrange a lot of swing classics as death metal 21:57:39 maybe I should do it with black metal instead and just wait for the death threats 21:57:54 i'd love to hear faceless played with something like an orchestra 21:58:13 this thing some metal bands have of 21:58:18 doing things with a classical orchestra 21:58:28 (I find it somewhat pretentious, and I don't think it sounds that good, ultimately) 21:58:32 would be fun doing that with a big band instead 21:58:50 or math core with a woman's choir 21:59:00 *women's 21:59:01 :D 21:59:02 doing faceless with a classical orchestra would be nowhere close to what metal people do with orchestras 21:59:21 if you use an orchestra you aren't allowed to use guitars of any kind 21:59:26 them's the rules 21:59:38 I actually considered for a while to try and get a band together that'd do like 22:00:08 relatively complex three-voice (or even four-voice) arrangements of metal songs 22:00:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASzIvMddyxA <<< the squeak thing the guitars keep repeating here, consider 3 violins playing a high cluster 22:00:10 mmmmmm 22:00:29 like, some angel dust-era faith no more and that kind of style 22:00:34 with three or four female vocalists 22:01:14 you know what sucks, any attempt to combine metal and classical 22:01:24 yes 22:01:26 but even worse 22:01:29 the people fawning over it 22:01:37 and the metalheads that think "metal is the new classical" 22:01:47 well in a sense it is 22:01:47 no it's not - one fucking rule: parallel fifths, man! 22:01:52 jazz is the new metal 22:01:56 DISCUSS 22:01:58 lament: what sense would that be? 22:02:13 in the sense that metal is where the interesting stuff happens nowadays 22:02:20 not really. 22:02:27 the interesting stuff happens in far underground places. 22:02:30 in every genre. 22:02:37 yeah i suppose 22:02:38 in the sense that it's one of the few remaining genres where people are interested in technical ability 22:03:04 and it's melody-based, roughly 22:03:07 lament: yeah but throughout common practice, parallel fifths were banned, and common practice is still pretty important a guideline for what to consider properly classical 22:03:15 Zwaarddijk: no, that's bullshit 22:03:18 lol 22:03:22 define classical :P 22:03:29 parallel fifths are like the rule about not ending a sentence with a preposition 22:03:34 it's not a real thing 22:03:39 oh, sure, they do occur 22:03:39 but in metal 22:03:43 they are the fucking bread and butter 22:03:46 of every fucing song 22:03:47 eh 22:03:52 in metal they're part of chords 22:03:58 just like they're part of chords everywhere else 22:03:59 that's not really relevant is it 22:04:00 so? 22:04:05 _voice leading_ 22:04:05 it's just that in metal there's nothing else in those chords :) 22:04:06 "this prescriptivist detail differs, THERE IS NO RELATION!!!!" 22:04:12 in metal, there's no voice leading 22:04:19 or very primitive such 22:04:28 in much classical, too 22:04:44 and you should think of a power chord as one voice 22:04:49 yeah but the metalheads that fawn over it 22:04:50 not two separate parallel voices 22:04:54 compare metal to the great masters 22:04:55 because that's what it sounds like 22:04:57 i tripped over my power chord 22:04:58 not to the hoi polloi composers 22:05:12 lament: and the reason why they're forbidden is that it sounds like one voice. 22:05:18 wow, that's the first time i've ever seen anyone actually wite hoi polloi 22:05:19 eh 22:05:29 Zwaarddijk: so? 22:05:35 cool guitars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXaIwvXa3SI 22:05:41 they do sound like one voice 22:05:44 why is that bad? 22:06:06 a bunch of organ voices play several notes an octave apart 22:06:08 lament: well my main objection really is that the metalheads that do fawn over how it's the new classical are just pretentious fucks 22:06:25 lament: every instrument has frequencies octaves apart 22:06:30 whatever tone you play 22:06:36 yeah, same with fifths 22:06:38 but another dream I have is to arrange a lot of death metal classics for big band <-- iiuc you'd have to change your nick to Sverdvoll then... 22:06:51 oh wait 22:07:41 lament: actually there's usually no overtone at the fifth 22:07:44 there's at the fifth's octave, though 22:07:51 ugh 22:07:54 i don't give a fuck 22:07:57 and at the third's octave's octave, etc 22:08:10 all i know is a power chord is supposed to sound like one thick sound 22:08:14 but still, the only thing metal shares with classical is fascination with technique 22:08:19 but some classical had fascination with voice leading 22:08:36 and that's easier to find in pop music these days! 22:08:48 (tho' it's probably most prominent in jazz) 22:09:39 w/e 22:09:42 so anyone could find some reason to claim having inherited something from classical 22:18:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:21:09 " that makes ower chords a tad awkward" erm why? do you use all fifths or what 22:21:26 power chords are easier with tritone tuning than with all fourths 22:21:47 oklopol: yeah but if you want a full seven-string power chord, ... 22:21:56 why not DADADAD 22:21:59 er 22:22:03 ADADADA 22:22:38 i don't like playing scales over fifth jumps, and i don't like having different jumps between strings 22:22:41 i'm not smart enough for that 22:23:10 could never really learn the guitar before i retuned it to all-fourths 22:23:14 well 22:23:17 slight exaggeration there 22:23:28 but it always annoyed me 22:24:10 the G-H thing does help a lot with some chord voicings if you need them 22:24:24 yeah 22:24:29 but ... I wouldn't really need them 22:24:38 but i don't do chords that much 22:24:43 and I have noticed sccales are more natural on the five-stringed bass than on a normal guitar 22:24:52 when I do chords, I generally either play classical stuff or jazz 22:25:09 and in jazz, you can play pretty minimalistic voicings 22:26:16 i don't know what voicings are 22:26:22 at least not in english 22:27:08 the way you arrange the tones of the chord 22:27:14 oh ok 22:27:53 like, if you play a G7 in jazz, you'll prolly have a G (or a D), an F and a H 22:27:58 in some order 22:28:01 and nothing else 22:28:20 depending on the previous and next chords, and so on 22:28:43 one common way of playing that would be 3x34xx 22:29:14 altho' x534xx would intrude less on the bass territory 22:30:07 xx34x3 could also work 22:30:22 xx343x definitely works 22:30:39 i think i'm seeing a pattern here 22:30:51 you need a 3-subset of the chord! 22:31:26 some just play the tritone 22:31:29 xx34xx 22:31:42 because that's the most dissonant part of the chord, and hence the most defining part of it 22:31:50 i'm sure you can play almost anything in context 22:31:52 also you can do some substitutions 22:31:56 so like 22:32:06 instead of a G7, you can play a C#/ 22:32:50 which would be xx342x 22:33:12 playing stuff in C major? 22:33:31 yeah, if we're in C maj, G7 ~= C#7 22:33:36 or just in general you can stick a C# in a G7? 22:33:48 the / was a typo 22:33:55 if you have a song with the chord progression 22:34:04 C Dmin G7 C 22:34:05 you know what sucks? jazz 22:34:06 you can switch it to 22:34:11 C Dmin C#7 C 22:34:19 and you get a nice chromatic desscent 22:35:08 you could also probably switch the G7 to a G#min6? 22:36:23 Dmin6 probably won't cover as a substitute dominant though? 22:37:14 i guess we can agree on all kinds of random shit sounding good 22:38:05 unfortunately it's far from random 22:38:14 jazz theory is a prescriptivist paradise 22:38:19 I wonder what kind of grammar modern treatments of harmony require to be expressed 22:38:26 ^ see 22:38:34 lament: jazz approach is far more descriptive than prescriptive 22:38:41 *the jazz approach 22:39:00 someone invents something and it sounds good? theorists will want to explain why it sounds good, and come up with a description 22:39:09 others read waht he did, and learn from it 22:39:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:39:40 Play chess, where if player coughs, he loses one of his pawns. 22:39:44 yeah and they can all go fuck themselves. what a bunch of losers. 22:39:53 :D 22:40:05 lament: I guess that's your business, to tell them that? 22:40:27 yeah 22:40:41 i'm quite prescriptive in my approach to jazz 22:41:31 that sounds better than the approach to music i've seen among the metal people i know, "just play whatever sounds good" 22:41:45 although lament loves that stuff because he's gay 22:41:56 sounding good is just a distraction 22:43:35 this is what music should sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79rHMifBODs 22:43:53 or this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAFTpLzMerw 22:44:51 lol 22:45:38 i'm not getting it 22:45:48 i like the atmosphere tho 22:45:56 would work in an elevator 22:46:11 (the same musician has composed both of those) 22:46:18 more like poosician 22:46:48 Different music should sound like different! Including, piano, organ, harp, computer, equal temperant, just intonation, Bohlen-Pierce, slow, fast, loud, quiet, major, minor, etc. 22:46:59 ^ words of wisdom 22:47:06 my favourite instrument is the quiet 22:47:25 my favourite instrument is the shut the fuck up 22:47:30 I don't think the quiet is an instrument...? 22:48:06 the quiet is the best instrument 22:48:08 lament: can you set +m for a while, that would be awesome 22:48:08 if used sparsely 22:48:14 true 22:48:15 Equal temperament is not an instrument either, although most musical instruments can be used with it. 22:48:18 Zwaarddijk: my second-favourite instrument is the loud 22:48:29 i've made entire albums just by alternating quiet and loud 22:48:33 SO VERSATILE 22:48:47 elliott: sounds like a rather revolutionary approach to music 22:48:55 Zwaarddijk: sometimes 22:49:00 Zwaarddijk: i even play the MEDIUM VOLUME 22:49:06 I thought quiet and loud never existed in mixed ensembles? 22:49:06 and 22:49:16 if i'm feeling really avant garde 22:49:18 i play the slow 22:49:26 Yes, that is why you can use the pianoforte instrument to make an album that alternates quiet and loud, and even medium volume. (Commonly the pianoforte is called "piano" for short) 22:49:38 COMMONLY 22:49:43 elliott: the slow is old, though 22:49:46 but in the 80s 22:49:50 thrash musicians invented the fast 22:49:56 lol 22:50:00 you think THRASH fuckers invented the fast? 22:50:05 you really ARE a clueless moron 22:50:08 which they only used with loud 22:50:10 beethoven invented the fast in 1994 22:50:26 anyway fuck you all, i'm going to go play the just intonation 22:50:44 is my dick a musical instrument 22:51:02 the just intonation is an euphemism for the penis 22:51:03 idiot 22:51:03 lament: blow it and tell us if it made a sound! 22:51:26 my favourite instrument is the minor 22:51:30 lament: do you play the fast with it? 22:51:36 the sound it makes when you blow it is just incredible 22:51:43 elliott: but those are illegal to riff on 22:51:59 sometimes i even smash my just intonation into the minor to make some music 22:52:12 one such piece i performed is titled "My Penis in A Minor", you can find it on the googles. 22:52:15 and playing licks on the minor gets you behind bars 22:52:16 it's funny because he actually is a pedophile 22:52:23 oklopol: that is precisely why it is funny. 22:52:39 that is, he likes the girls on his class 22:52:48 ah 22:52:52 elliott: are you still 12? 22:52:55 get it? he's like 12 22:53:01 lament: no, i'm now actually 11 22:53:05 oh 23:04:23 oklopol: i heard there's some overlap between bands who do heavy metal like what you linked, and dark psy 23:04:26 funnily enough 23:04:37 what's dark psy 23:04:38 probably because the tempo's the same and they're both scary-music genres 23:04:42 it's like uh 23:04:45 let me link you to something 23:04:46 scary-music genres? 23:05:01 the faceless mostly sings about aliens and space stuff 23:05:08 i don't think they try to be very scary 23:05:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqprNp2J1wQ 23:06:17 that's like the antifaceless. that's the faceful. 23:06:27 the faceless? 23:06:44 wouldn't the antifaceless be like the ... buttless? 23:07:12 or the buttful? 23:07:47 olsner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Cz2dFTlSA 23:08:52 the most progressive thing i've found that i can actually understand 23:08:55 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:09:08 not that progressive, but then again i'm not very smart 23:09:15 Hmm.. 23:09:29 Is fixed point with 64-bit values usually faster, or are floating point operations usually faster? 23:09:46 They don't give equivalent results, so how can we compare? 23:10:02 I think xor will probably be even faster 23:10:12 I think nop will probably be fastest of them all. 23:11:20 oklopol: that faceless track is funny in a cheezy way 23:11:56 funny? you must have some sort of braindamage 23:12:03 erm 23:12:05 i meant fun 23:12:09 not funny 23:12:09 okay good 23:12:11 i hate astronauts 23:12:15 they're so funny 23:12:21 and no, not brain damage, just past my bedtime 23:12:25 i'm very protective of my little facelessie 23:12:39 oklopol: faceless is FUNNY!!! 23:12:45 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111eleven 23:13:00 :(( 23:13:07 >:D 23:13:22 >>>>>:D 23:13:33 that song i just linked isn't really their best work 23:14:54 is that why it's so funny :-\ 23:15:16 also i should prolly listen to more stuff, but i have the same problem as with everything except math, i only listen to music because i want to *not* think for once, so i prefer listening to the same stuff over and over again. 23:15:33 i guess that's common enough 23:15:52 haha same here 23:15:57 i have this issue.. 23:15:58 *i mostly listen to 23:16:11 but like, i started listening to operas lately and it's good braindead music 23:16:16 :P 23:16:20 i'm sure it is 23:16:24 palestrina is a good one 23:16:35 get it 23:16:45 no i don't get it, can you explain 23:16:50 (i did get it) 23:16:55 (but i'm not sure i'll get it) 23:18:24 no sorry this is only for smart people 23:18:32 i guess it's a high-brow one for ya 23:18:52 don't worry though i bet you'll be fine watching your eastenders and eating your cod n chippies 23:18:58 i'm very, very slow 23:19:00 in my head 23:19:25 when others have gotten there i'm still like wait what 23:19:29 well maybe one day you'll have a son who can only gain control of his left foot and will become a writer 23:19:36 then you'll die of heart attack 23:19:50 i don't even get that reference 23:19:59 "my left foot"? 23:20:13 never seen that movie? it's a classic 23:20:22 oh yeah i've seen that on family guy 23:20:29 ... 23:20:44 dot, dot, dot 23:20:53 not so funny now that i know it's a reference to something 23:21:17 yeah it's a reference to christy brown, a real person. 23:21:28 you know what's awesome 23:21:29 it was his biopic 23:21:29 death 23:21:31 yeah don't care 23:21:36 elliott: totally go for it 23:21:50 real persons are even worse than movies 23:21:58 elliott: make sure to send us a postcard from kerberos 23:22:03 one day i will make a film about oklopol 23:22:07 and he'll hate me 23:22:10 :D 23:22:17 even though it'll just be like 23:22:21 120 minutes of constant oklopol fanboyism 23:22:34 oklopol: yeah but at least with real persons you don't have to rewind them after watching 23:22:35 120 minutes of me ircing naked in my armchair 23:22:45 or that yes 23:22:54 oklopol: isn't that the same 23:23:09 i suppose i suppose 23:23:10 what better movie for oklopol fans than oklopol naked 23:23:17 for ALL 120 minutes 23:23:28 i've linked a vid of me playing the piano naked here once 23:23:29 starting with the first second and ending with the last 23:23:35 like, not even dressing out 23:23:39 i watched that! 23:23:42 i think 23:23:46 prolly 23:23:47 just.. naked 23:24:00 so anyways 23:24:38 oklopol: i think there's some operatic heavy metal too 23:24:43 ever listen to that stuff? 23:24:49 like what? 23:24:57 i was totally into nightwish as a kid (i still like it) 23:26:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7HvBLtt1g&feature=related this stuff 23:27:19 erm 23:27:25 that's a weird version but anyhoe 23:28:26 not really "operatic" at all i suppose 23:29:16 ZSTG7Y8UKOPL 23:32:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:40:55 That tswett character should be back now. 23:41:53 i agree 23:45:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:45:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 23:45:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:46:21 -!- cheater- has joined. 23:46:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:48:51 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 2011-04-10: 00:06:54 I disagree. 00:07:11 I definitely won't be present in any shape for about ten more minutes. 00:10:42 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:13:15 -!- sftp has joined. 00:14:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:59 tswett: Okay. 00:17:35 Nope, I'm not here just yet. Give it one more minute. 00:18:10 * tswett arrives. 00:18:15 Hi, everyone. How's it going? 00:18:16 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:38 -!- augur has joined. 00:18:40 -!- sftp has joined. 00:20:03 vardøger 00:22:07 Excellent! 00:36:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Only a true artist can fail to draw a perfect circle.). 00:39:37 Hi tswett. 00:39:58 Hi elliott. 00:40:29 Are you subtly hinting at something? 00:40:40 Nope. 00:40:55 I will, however, note that you seem to be 40 minutes late. 00:40:57 Or is it 20 minutes early? 00:41:38 Nah, it's 40 minutes late. 00:41:43 Except I arrived about 20 minutes ago. 00:52:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Goon date). 01:13:49 I think it's time for me to write a conductor program >_> 01:13:49 With Gregor Brand Repeatability™ 01:14:26 This snetence will neer be said again. 01:23:06 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:26:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:28:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:33:00 I do not like the page User:Ehird, it is too slow. 01:34:17 zzo38, use a browser that was norn born out of NIH syndrome? 01:35:49 It is slow with all of them. 01:35:56 All of them what? 01:36:09 Browsers? 01:36:12 I doubt you have tried all browsers. 01:36:15 Anyway, an HTML page cannot be inherently slow. 01:36:33 If you are saying that it renders slowly, that is a factor of your hardware, and your entire software stack. I cannot help you. 01:36:52 I don't think anything is forcing you to visit that page. 01:40:06 Is better making the browser program that assumes HTML and scripts and stuff is all trying to control you, and refuses to render anything that might be slow, making whenever there is a timer to make a fading effect or sliding effect, speeds it up and does not render the frames in between, and that the script doesn't know your actual screen size, won't load all the images/CSS if there is too many, won't know your scrolled position, etc. 01:40:19 My user page is not trying to control you. 01:40:47 In fact, it is patently impossible for a web page to control you as a person unless it was, e.g. written by a very crafty superintelligence. 01:40:55 Certainly a snowman and a gradient cannot do so. 01:41:09 Anyway, all my page is is some tags. There is no JavaScript involved. 01:41:15 elliott: I am not refering to your user page. I am meaning in general, even if it is not true; at least making such assumption makes the computer faster and prevents dumb things on web pages from working. 01:41:21 k 01:47:14 And if there is a width specification for the entire body, that specification is ignored if it would be less than the natural width (except for printing and print preview, in which case it is not ignored); most timers are not used; what can do if hovering is limited; popups are severely limited and open in a different way than before; keyboard and mouse events are dealt with in a new way; and so on. 01:51:00 Whatever. 01:51:40 Make up a new temperament and make a music 01:52:36 No. 01:53:55 O, go drink hydroxic acid. 01:56:49 O, go drink hydroxic acid, please. 01:58:50 No. 02:01:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:05:11 No. 02:07:22 No. 02:15:10 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:38:04 Aww, I wanted to ask zzo38 a question 02:38:12 What question 02:42:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:47:18 elliott, about why he dislikes the removal of mana burn 02:47:33 Are you sure you want to know? 02:47:43 Yes 02:56:36 -!- augur has joined. 02:56:50 they removed mana burn? 02:56:54 wtf 02:56:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:57:14 i guess it doesn't make a huge difference in many cases 02:57:21 -!- augur has joined. 02:57:32 but it would allow people to be less careful (and therefore less skillful) so i don't liek 03:11:21 http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Mana_burn 03:25:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:05:55 -!- Patashu has joined. 04:09:37 hi Patashu 04:09:44 yo 04:14:26 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:21:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:29:35 have i been legitimately pinged? 04:29:50 any of you good with pl/sql? since the other channel I tried is idle 04:29:59 oh 04:30:50 (that wasn't me pinging you tho) 04:31:37 elliott: Huffman coding is terrible for compressing short strings. the map from codes->characters takes up at least half the length of the "compressed" string even when optimally encoded itself. is there not something better? 04:34:38 someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P 04:36:41 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 05:20:03 well, there's always fixed tables 05:21:30 or something like LZW where the information is implicit, ya? 05:34:08 lzw includes a lot of "instructions" in the text doesn't it? 05:38:35 also lzw appears to be poor at compressing large files compared to other algorithms, why would it do better on short sentences? 05:42:35 but you're right that a fixed huffman table (based on average frequencies of characters in english language) would probably do well enough 05:44:38 i should read up on arithmetic coding 05:49:43 "Recent PPM implementations are among the best-performing lossless compression programs for natural language text." 05:49:50 this makes sense 05:49:54 i bet that's the answer 05:54:50 yes, ppm are pretty awesome, but take a long time 05:55:17 i don't know how lzw compares to say, huffman, but you can't very well complain about small strings and then use large files as the counterexample 05:55:33 unless i guess you're looking for all-around compression? 05:55:48 anyway, there's some crazy version of paq 05:56:03 that has like a neural network that governs the output based on a series of separate predictor models 05:56:14 or something like that 06:39:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:40:29 -!- lament has joined. 07:28:32 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:29:52 o 08:10:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:13:43 Patashu: what do you need? 08:13:56 oh sup 08:14:22 I have some 'pl/sql'. I airquote it because on a logical level it does what I need to, but it doesn't fit the grammar so it won't compile 08:14:29 can you help me think of ways to rework it so it will? http://pastebin.com/2ECDXR4i 08:15:06 as an example, the holiday function does not compile, because I cannot use a subquery in that context 08:15:32 feel free to ask questions 08:17:24 where exactly are you using it? 08:18:04 um can you repaste the text not in an sql pastebin, because it's annoying to read 08:18:19 oh wait raw is below 08:18:19 nm 08:19:46 so, what server are you using it with? 08:20:37 ?????? 08:20:44 Patashu: ping 08:21:33 is this thing on? 08:21:39 oh 08:21:42 hi 08:21:50 oh well yeah for obvious reasons you won't be able to run it 08:21:53 since I'm on a dif. server 08:22:00 i'm asking you what software 08:22:15 oracle sql developer anddd a university db 08:22:16 or do you have this theoretical pl/sql supporting server that doesn't exist 08:22:19 ok 08:22:21 well anyways 08:22:28 there's no reason to use PL for this 08:22:31 it's just a few joins 08:23:26 you need a table of future dates that have a bit flag for if it's a holiday or not 08:23:26 yeah I was making good work of reducing it down to just joins 08:23:27 but not quiiite 08:23:32 and the day of week / holiday logic is a thing 08:23:41 yeah, that's where you use "if" 08:23:48 I thought you can't use if within sql 08:23:52 which is where I'm having trouble 08:24:07 http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/if-statement.html 08:24:19 if mysql can do it, oracle can do it 08:24:31 yeah that looks like it's in mysql's equivalent to pl/sql 08:24:33 I mean to say 08:24:40 I can use if when it's not pure sql 08:24:44 but if it's mid-query I can't 08:24:50 http://www.devx.com/tips/Tip/20063 08:24:56 yeah that's why you do four joins 08:25:21 or actually no.. just two ? i guess 08:25:37 you do one big select for when the future day is a holiday, and one big select for when it's not 08:25:50 hmmmm 08:25:52 that's 08:25:57 a better way of doing it than I was trying 08:26:02 I guess I may as well give in and split it into two queries 08:26:12 when it's not, you just select rows in the past that were not holidays and use a limit clause 08:26:13 so it's not like blurp da blurp da blurp FUCKASS LOGIC IN ONE QUERY 08:26:25 when it is, you do a select over the past holidays with a limit 08:26:51 it's really something you could golf down to a oneliner 08:27:29 let me think about this then come back to you 08:28:42 okay so instead of a loop 08:28:53 temp table with the future dates and whether they're a holiday or not 08:28:55 well I'd do that in a loop rather 08:28:57 than just do some joins 08:30:59 -!- cheater99 has joined. 08:31:04 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:43:39 I reworked it to be more sql'y http://pastebin.com/3mfVndyc 08:43:45 I think I can make it better but hmmm 08:44:44 I hate the extra join when I'm actually making the forecast, but the way you have to do it is weird, see, you have to make a forecast whenever that tnifrmp/lr/hh/dayofweek combination has data and I have to not make one whenever it doesn't. however, if it turns out to be a holiday I have to not use the energy average from that dayofweek and instead use the holiday one, and put all 0s if none 08:44:44 exists 08:48:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:51:43 any thoughts? 08:52:26 wait lol, it's telling me boolean isn't a valid datatype? one second 08:53:10 oh wow, it isn't. it's only valid in pl/sql 08:55:13 sorry had someone at the door 08:55:24 dude 08:55:26 I have to store it as a char or number(1) apparently. gay 08:55:30 throw away your code and just build it up the way i told you 08:55:38 don't you have BIT? 08:55:47 yeah, I tried to and I ended up with that again, so I'm obviously not thinking about it the right way 08:55:54 yeah 08:56:10 you do one big select for when the future day is a holiday, and one big select for when it's not 08:56:16 aaaah 08:56:16 (1) when it's not, you just select rows in the past that were not holidays and use a limit clause 08:56:21 tell me when you're done with (1) 08:56:25 and show me the code 08:57:03 also nope, no bit http://ss64.com/ora/syntax-datatypes.html 08:57:04 don't ask me why 08:57:04 no bit 08:58:04 okay wait before I start 08:58:08 also: 08:58:09 create table tbool (bool char check (bool in(0,1)); 08:58:09 insert into tbool values(0); 08:58:09 insert into tbool values(1); 08:58:17 to do this for every future day 08:58:22 should I create a table with 14 dates in it 08:58:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:58:25 or enclose it in a 1..13 loop 08:58:27 but never mind that just use a char 08:58:32 or is there another way, synthesize a table in a subquery? 08:58:33 before you start optimizing 08:58:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:58:42 ok just do the select before i get tired 08:58:45 :P 08:58:46 LOL 08:59:28 working on it? 08:59:31 yes 08:59:35 ok 09:01:24 done? 09:02:13 ok i'll leave you to it a bit :p 09:02:21 i'll brb, need to go out for a sec 09:02:26 k 09:07:07 enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 09:07:36 ok here's my attempt http://pastebin.com/mr46GfAP 09:10:23 oh forgot something in the holiday version 09:10:38 actually nvm 09:18:48 making the controversial step of fixing it until it compiles O_O 09:19:34 GOT IT TO COMPILE *rocks da fuck out* 09:20:51 http://pastebin.com/nN5BpbRW 09:22:09 why is there a FOR there 09:22:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:23:00 it's to make the table of days I'm forecasting to to join against 09:23:04 is there a pure sql way of implementing that? 09:23:19 select trunc(sysdate+rowid) from dual where rowid > 0 and rowid < 14; 09:23:21 or something 09:23:32 i'm not sure what the row id variable is named in oracle 09:23:43 dual only has one row but that's a good idea 09:24:04 oh right i forgot 09:24:09 but yeah there was something like that 09:24:14 maybe use LIMIT or something 09:24:29 well I can fix that later 09:25:48 wow, I tried running it, took 28 seconds. that is an awful time 09:26:39 and it didn't appear to make any rows either lmao 09:26:40 fml 09:27:21 still better than your shitty pl/sql 09:27:33 yeah. 5 marks if it compiles 09:27:35 because it can be optimized and is functional 09:27:39 and 5 marks if you can run it and it does something 09:27:43 haha 09:27:43 now it just needs to do the correct thing 09:27:51 does it not? 09:27:55 i hadn't been through the code yet 09:27:56 any thoughts? here's the output: 0 rows 09:28:01 doesn't seem to 09:28:05 it ran for 28 seconds then did nothing 09:28:45 # 09:28:45 from v_nem_rm16 n join forecast_day f on to_char(f.day, 'D') = to_char(n.day, 'D') 09:28:45 # 09:28:45 and f.day not in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday) 09:29:00 shouldn't that be "where f.day not in ..." ? 09:29:07 btw dbp_holiday has 50 rows and v_nem_rm16 has 47k rows 09:29:17 oh hmmm 09:29:31 I'll take it down to just the non-holiday version 09:29:33 get that to work 09:29:36 then look at the bulkier half 09:30:02 what is forecast_day? 09:30:06 and holiday_date? 09:30:18 forecast_day is the table holding the 14 days into the future I'm forecasting for 09:30:22 holiday_date has every date that is a holiday 09:30:47 i think your to_char(f.day, 'D') might be screwy 09:31:34 it returns the day of the week, 7 for sunday 1 for monday etc 09:31:37 just tried it 09:31:42 unless you mean the USAGE of it 09:31:50 oh ok, then it's fine 09:31:59 so what does the "non holidays" part do 09:32:01 is it ok? 09:32:07 do a forecast for one day 09:32:11 ok 09:32:15 it runs in 0.3 seconds with just the non holidays part 09:32:16 good sign 09:32:24 lol 09:32:47 and produced 28464 rows 09:33:00 that's probably because v_nem_rm16 is not indexed. 09:33:08 I have no clue if it's indexed or not 09:33:13 ok just select one of em and compare it to the data you get 09:33:35 yeah thing is 09:33:40 I have no idea how to check my results except by doing another query 09:33:44 which might be wrong too 09:33:47 lolol 09:34:01 query past days and calculate average by hand. 09:34:34 47k rows 09:34:48 i said for one day 09:34:54 also, for one combination of your three variables 09:34:57 hmmm 09:36:48 o 09:37:33 ok I tried one blah blah combination 09:37:36 looks like the same result 09:37:43 so I'll check that as 'complete or ought to be' 09:37:46 how do I do the non holiday part 09:37:54 because that's what made my query take 30 sec to produce nothing 09:40:58 pastebinning again http://pastebin.com/ysL5UyUP also thanks SO MUCH hahaha 09:43:42 anyway I take it I made a horrible cross join by mistake so I need to Not Do That 09:46:07 oh wow. only took 3 seconds this time 09:46:10 did I do a thing??? 09:47:39 oh. it still only produces 28464 rows :( 09:47:42 so the holiday part isn't doing its job 09:48:57 -!- augur has joined. 09:54:16 what cross join? 09:54:30 okay, this is weird. if I do this: 09:54:31 select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday 09:54:32 INTERSECT 09:54:32 select trunc(day) from v_nem_rm16; 09:54:33 I get 0 rows 09:54:52 has he not put any past holidays aligning with data? because...that makes it hard to test! 09:54:53 what's NVL? 09:55:00 nvl means 'in case of null, put this instead' 09:55:22 ok i think you need to soften your algorithm 09:55:27 unless it's an offline thing 09:55:40 it takes a couple of seconds 09:55:49 ok then it's good 09:55:52 and (if this were to actually be used in production) it'd run once a day 09:55:52 nothing to fix 09:55:53 so it's fine 09:56:05 or is it going to run on a high availability service? 09:56:11 ok well 09:56:12 that's fine 09:56:21 so yeah 09:56:24 see what I just put up there? 09:56:33 yeah some code 09:56:33 apparently no past holidays align with data he's put in 09:56:37 if that statement is correct 09:56:42 didn't read it 09:56:46 lol 09:57:02 well then try selecting a holiday in the next 14 days 09:57:09 if you don't find any here's your answer 09:57:14 if you do, then keep digging 09:57:52 for one of those holidays, select all days from the past on that weekday, and only select rows where that day is a holiday 09:58:32 22/apr/11 is listed as a holiday, so is 23 and 25, and today's the 10 so 09:58:33 let's see 10:00:03 if I do this: select day from forecast_day where day in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday); I get 22nd and 23rd of april back 10:00:21 if I do this: select day from v_nem_rm16 where day in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday); 10:00:31 so yeah I literally can't test it right now unless I make my own data to test it on 10:00:31 LOL 10:02:09 thanks for all your help 10:05:58 myndzi: i doubt it's a neural network. i think it would be easier and have better results if they applied boosting or WM to their set of predictive experts. 10:09:33 LOL 10:09:37 I just realized i can't count to 14 10:09:38 go me 10:09:57 like the lecturer literally said 10:10:07 'you'd be surprised how many people don't forecast for 14 days exactly' 10:10:10 one of those people was almost me 10:14:20 yw 10:16:11 also I really love the setup oracle sql developer gives you 10:16:14 you have a big blank worksheet 10:16:18 you can select any block of text and execute it 10:16:30 so you can just doodle wherever your cursor happens to be I <3 it 10:27:54 mysql workbench is better 10:28:02 also sql developer is like a really old version 10:28:09 what you want is jdeveloper and use the sql bits in that 10:34:35 jdeveloper, huh? 10:35:04 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:44:11 -!- wareya_ has joined. 10:45:35 yea 10:46:55 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:57:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:58:46 This snetence will neer be said again. 10:58:52 * oerjan cackles evilly. 11:03:48 you are a real bastard u know that 11:04:17 You're an integer bastard 11:06:26 well at least i'm not complex. 11:06:31 or am i... 11:12:45 so i have this red stuff that's really hot and i never learn 11:25:04 oerjan: have you read laws of form? 11:26:22 oerjan, what does "neer" there mean 11:26:44 Vorpal: ask elliott... 11:26:52 cheater99: no 11:27:05 oerjan, he is not here atm, since you used it I presume you know what it means? 11:27:26 i was _assuming_ it meant never. 11:28:11 also you would seem to be missing the joke again 11:28:12 ah 11:28:21 oerjan, there was a joke? 11:28:43 yes. 11:28:50 oh, what was it? 11:29:00 that would be telling. 11:29:22 but searching for neer in the logs _should_ clear things up. 11:30:16 oerjan: looks like a cool book 11:30:42 http://www.4shared.com/get/bBAP7ovO/G-spencer-Brown-Laws-of-Form-1.html 11:47:47 sounds like a load of crap to me 11:48:03 what is it 12:11:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:11:31 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 12:11:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:14:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:16:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:17:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:22:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:56:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 12:57:24 oklopol: it's a formalization of mathematical logic 12:57:42 oklopol: it allows you to evaluate statements such as "This sentence is false." 13:10:20 :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 13:10:23 BUT IT'S NOT! 13:20:13 IS IT TRUE THEN? 13:30:25 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 13:33:52 Cn't be :Ds 13:38:14 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:38:28 oklopol: yeah 13:38:32 oklopol: that was my reaction 13:38:41 so basically this book is cool 13:38:50 also it was even mentioned by russell as a good book 13:39:10 and in fact the preface quotes him saying he's happy someone came up with this stuff before he died 14:38:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:39:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 14:46:50 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:55:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:56:30 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:23:22 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined. 15:25:35 "There is no support for user defined generics yet. However, three built-in classes List, Map, and Func can be parameterized using a special syntax." 15:25:50 so glad that Func can be parameterized 15:26:26 sadly, it does not seem to be the SAME special syntax used for all three type constructors 15:26:31 what would have been nice. 15:28:25 -!- ZOMGMODULES has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:38:42 sadly, it does not seem to be the SAME special syntax used for all three type constructors <-- what language? 15:42:14 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:46:17 -!- elliott has joined. 15:47:14 04:31:37: elliott: Huffman coding is terrible for compressing short strings. the map from codes->characters takes up at least half the length of the "compressed" string even when optimally encoded itself. is there not something better? 15:47:21 quintopia: fix the map, duh 15:47:33 04:34:38: someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P 15:47:33 someone should buy an attention span :) 15:48:05 05:38:35: also lzw appears to be poor at compressing large files compared to other algorithms, why would it do better on short sentences? 15:48:06 what 15:54:28 omg i just missed zomgmodules 15:54:42 maybe it's synchronicity 15:54:56 cheater discovers worst book ever, loves it, zomgmodules appears, disappears 15:55:00 that sounds like synchronicity to me 15:55:15 * elliott tries to find the author's proof of riemann hypothesis 15:55:32 [[In a 1976 letter to the Editor of Nature, Spencer-Brown claimed a proof of the four-color theorem, which is not computer-assisted.[2] The preface of the 1979 edition of Laws of Form repeats that claim, and further states that the generally accepted computational proof by Appel, Haken, and Koch has 'failed' (page xii). Spencer-Brown's claimed proof of the four-color theorem has yet to find any defenders; Kauffman provides a detailed review of pa 15:55:32 rts of that work.[3][4]]] 15:55:38 mmf where's the riemann one! 15:56:16 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:56:44 HERE WE GO 15:56:44 http://www.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/~linde/weblog/GSB-RHproof.pdf 15:57:51 http://www.lawsofform.org/gsb/nature.html ;; ooh, the four colour theorem too! 15:57:55 the actual proof i mean 15:57:57 his genius knows no bounds 16:08:23 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:11:33 omg i just missed zomgmodules <-- "just"? It was about over 15 minutes. 16:11:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:14:40 elliott, I presume he didn't publish either in peer reviewed papers? 16:21:39 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:21:56 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:25:07 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 16:27:21 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:27:21 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:27:21 -!- enki-[quit] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:41:18 Vorpal: lol 16:41:28 anyway 15 minutes is 0 seconds, on a global scale 16:42:19 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:45:51 elliott, well, on a truly global scale, you just missed Archimedes too. 16:55:19 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:06:12 -!- monqy has joined. 17:06:57 Vorpal: indeed. very sad. 17:17:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:20:30 elliott, which MI game do you think is best? 17:20:43 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:20:45 bbiab 17:22:08 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:24:19 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:26:37 back 17:34:36 WHY are PC cases so stupid. 17:34:53 hdds should be at the back, and connectors at the front. Well okay, power connector could be at the back 17:35:16 but not headphones 17:35:33 I have two usb connectors on the front. And the hdd bays 17:35:44 when you think about it, this arrangement makes no sense 17:35:57 unless you have hot-swap bays for the hdds, which I don't 17:39:10 -!- lament has joined. 18:01:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:01:52 I invented a Dungeons&Dragons class called "Feater" class, they get feats but not much else 18:03:06 zzo38, what's the point of it? 18:06:53 To make a new class, and see if it works. I put feats at every even number level and some weaker things at odd number levels 18:07:02 I don't know if it is good, yet. 18:22:55 -!- nottwo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:23:01 -!- nottwo has joined. 18:25:45 -!- enki-[quit] has joined. 18:28:27 18:31:45 18:32:14 -!- mtve has joined. 18:38:25 Is there a good portable MIDI library? That is, for both reading MIDI files and for communicating with MIDI devices. portmidi/portsmf doesn't look too promising, though it might be sufficient. 18:38:41 (That is, does anybody happen to know one) 18:38:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:38:47 I don't know of one. 18:39:35 -!- augur has joined. 18:40:42 Gregor: I suspect the two things will be separate 18:41:00 Well, that's fine, but I just don't know if portmidi/portsmf is the best we can do :P 18:42:43 Gregor: portaudio is pretty popular 18:42:45 i'm assuming those are part of it 18:43:03 Yeah. 18:43:10 But AFAICT, portmidi sucks and nobody ever uses it :P 18:43:17 well only fags use midi, any quetions 18:46:43 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:48:22 zzo38, why do you dislike the removal of mana burn? 18:50:58 Sgeo__: I like the rule of mana burn, it allows some strategy. There are also rules that I didn't like too, such as some of the rules relating to planeswalker cards (I like the idea, but not the implementation; I also dislike the name for confusion with "Plainswalk"), rule about a Aura which is also a creature being discarded, and so on. 18:54:41 I have created some of my own variant rules for a variant of the game, such as rules for "Playercard" type, and for "entities" which is a generalization of "objects", etc. I do, however, like the name "Exile zone" for what was called "remove from game" zone, since it isn't really remove from game. However, I would rather call the "Library" the "draw zone", the "Graveyard" the "discard zone", and maybe calling "in play" (or "Battlefield") the "p 18:55:39 (Did the message get cut off?) 18:57:29 Yes. 18:59:25 If so, where did it get cut? 18:59:42 Battlefield") the " 19:01:53 zzo38, Portal I think had more "game-y" names 19:01:57 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:02:53 ...and maybe calling "in play" (or "Battlefield") the "permanent zone". 19:05:48 I have invented rules for the "playercard" type that counts as both a player and a permanent at the same time. They never get a turn, but if they make choices, their choices are decided by their controller. The number of their life points is equal to the number of their loyalty counters (or perhaps rename them to "life counters"?), loss of life results in loss of counters and gain life results gain counters. 19:05:56 If a playercard wins or loses the game, it is discarded. 19:06:06 (And the game is not over.) 19:06:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:07:21 Opinions? 19:07:58 (Note, when I was trying to describe these various of my rules to some other people who played the game, they did not understand and thought I was trying to make the life total into another player.) 19:20:13 (Did the message get cut off?) <-- you might want an IRC client that automatically splits at the best word boundary 19:25:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:26:22 Vorpal: I could program in a maximum if necessary, and then it will ding like some typewriters might. 19:48:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:47 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:08:42 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:33:22 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:40:43 Gregor will be so happy, they've compiled poppler and freetype to JS. 20:44:57 does that mean you can write a JS-only PDF reader? 20:45:09 already done 20:45:11 http://syntensity.com/static/poppler.html 20:45:15 (external pdf loading only works on FF4) 20:45:22 (downloads 12 Mio) 20:45:29 well, I think it's a one-page reader, but whatever 20:48:44 Gregor will be so happy, they've compiled poppler and freetype to JS. <-- uh does that mean they have a generic C->JS compiler? 20:49:14 The LLVM one, right? 20:49:16 wow, even better 20:49:18 LLVM->JS 20:49:24 that is so awesome 20:49:27 how is the performance? 20:49:54 Yes. 20:49:57 emscripten. 20:50:05 elliott, how is the performance though 20:51:24 well, not great 20:51:29 or my computer sucks 20:51:30 or both 21:02:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:08:42 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:08:47 -!- Gregor has joined. 21:09:13 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest42334. 21:10:38 -!- Guest42334 has changed nick to Gregor. 21:13:22 hey elliott: out of all the common household objects found in most homes, which of them would it be most hilarious to actually be sentient and be plotting a conspiracy, but too simple-minded to do anything but set up levels of bureaucracy? 21:13:34 Gregor: um it seems like glogbot doesn't show nick changes... 21:13:37 I... 21:13:41 ais523: your question has floored me 21:13:44 gah 21:13:49 ok wait 21:13:53 ais523: socks 21:14:01 hmm, I like 21:14:15 ais523: mainly because of http://qntm.org/socks :) 21:14:24 that may be a cheating way to answer 21:14:35 ah, indeed 21:14:58 ais523: The occupants. 21:15:23 Gregor: that's a nice lateral-thinking solution, I suppose 21:16:14 ais523: indeed it's cheating? 21:16:18 ais523: what on earth is this for anyway :) 21:16:29 elliott: BlogNomic 21:16:47 I love the way you assumed there was an actual motive behind the question 21:17:00 (there was, but it seems like a surprising assumption) 21:17:19 ais523: well, /usually/ you don't ask things quite so... err... that 21:17:27 especially not to someone in particular :) 21:17:27 assuming that may make answering more fun 21:17:42 maybe ais523 is figuring out how solid the defences of his race, the washing machines, are 21:17:47 he has concluded that WE SUSPECT NOTHING 21:17:55 and will be relaying this information on to his masters 21:19:32 04:34:38: someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P 21:19:53 hi oerjan 21:19:54 i've been thinking that the language list should contain one-line descriptions 21:20:07 that's not a bad idea 21:20:11 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 21:20:12 * elliott grrs as he removes an {{unsigned}} 21:20:17 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 21:20:17 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:20:28 hey ais523: where do P.S.es go in a letter? 21:20:30 after your signature or before? 21:20:35 or do you put another signature after the P.S.? 21:20:40 after 21:20:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:20:43 after the signature, no extra signature 21:20:44 and no 21:20:50 I start my PS:es after the signature 21:20:56 i don't write letters 21:21:10 well, you can do PSes in email too 21:21:18 observe: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gravity/w/w/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/index.php&diff=21796&oldid=21775 21:21:19 :D 21:21:21 although there's less of a reason 21:21:26 apparently you're meant to have two signatures! 21:21:57 `addquote That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children. 21:22:00 358) That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children. 21:22:45 I fairly often have PS:es in my e-mails 21:23:03 I thought the purpose of a PS: was so that you could write more after you'd already written/typeset the letter 21:23:27 maybe it is/was ... I use them as appendices 21:23:48 it's for snarky remarks and footnote-alikes 21:23:50 mostly snarky remarks 21:26:36 ais523: yes. 21:28:29 tswett: hello. 21:39:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:39:06 http://pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/will-ferrell-twitter.jpg 21:46:21 -!- calamari has joined. 21:46:59 Now both logs seems to be broken. 21:47:11 Howso 21:47:33 clog is broken, but Gregor's is still on 21:47:50 To me they both seem broken. 21:47:55 Howso? 21:48:00 What is broken about Gregor's? 21:48:24 Gregor's won't load at all. The clog will load, but there is no messages past 12:35:48 21:48:44 it does seem a tad non-loading 21:48:44 It loads for me. Your internet connection is probably having problems. clog is indeed broken. 21:48:52 there it did 21:48:53 It loads perfectly here... 21:49:22 actually i had to reload it too, but then it worked 21:49:49 It works now 21:50:27 Gregor: ok the nick change complaint was just the logs failing to update until now, then 21:50:57 although at that time reloading didn't work either 21:51:47 and _now_ it updated without even reloading, just using forward button in browser 21:51:58 -!- clog has joined. 21:52:05 wb clog 21:52:16 now #esoteric is clogged again! 21:52:32 clog: I HATEEE YOUUU 21:53:20 When I write a letter, the postscript (PS) message is after the "Sincerely" line, especially when writing by hand. When writing a letter by computer I usually do not use a postscript message. 21:53:46 i never say anything sincerely 21:53:51 I sign my messages 21:53:52 Quack, 21:53:53 A Duck 21:53:55 who writes letters by hand? really? 21:53:59 olsner: zzo38 21:54:04 apparently! 21:54:18 olsner: You mean, you don't write letters by hand? 21:54:23 you should sign them Duck, A Quack 21:54:37 oerjan: i did that once but then i lost my medical license? 21:54:38 afaict, there has been no reason to do that since about 1990 which was before I learned to write 21:54:39 and them include a homeopathic bomb 21:54:53 *then 21:54:54 is a homeopathic one one that contains only one atom of actual explosive? 21:54:54 oerjan: :D 21:55:05 ais523: erm, since when do homeopathic remedies contain a whole ATOM?? 21:55:10 *homeopathic bomb 21:55:16 elliott: some of them probably do, by chance 21:55:17 do people add postscript messages to every message, and as par for the course? 21:55:20 even if it's unlikely 21:55:25 ais523: Then it will only explode a little bit? 21:55:29 ais523: more like, they're made out of random rain 21:55:34 or do they do like it originally was meant- to add something you think of after writing it, but before sending it 21:55:35 ais523: after all, it's probably rained once or twice in chernobyl 21:55:38 ais523: and that was nuclear 21:55:43 so the water memory ... 21:55:50 elliott: good point 21:56:08 Zwaarddijk: When I add a postscript message, it is usually for that purpose. 21:56:59 zzo38: I believe some people think postscripts somehow are proof that they're good writers well versed in the art of writing letters, and so add them _while composing the letter_ 21:57:45 postscripts are for snarky comments 21:57:47 end of discussion :D 21:58:13 elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. 21:58:14 PS: Postscripts don't obey ends of discussion 21:58:23 zzo38: ... What ... 21:58:44 `addquote elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. 21:58:47 359) elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. 21:59:24 i assume he means that without gravitation, at least water shape might be preserved... 22:00:10 hm wait surface tension would ruin that 22:00:43 oerjan: when you assume, you make an ass out of u and zzo38 22:01:23 i assume you are talking out of your ass 22:03:25 Zwaarddijk: Sometimes I write the postscript for things that I want to write but that does not belong to the letter, but usually it is for things I forgot. 22:11:49 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:12:44 cephalopod sighted 22:14:05 In 2002, the Roman composer Nicola Sani composed Con Fuoco (for hyperbass flute and 8-track magnetic tape), <-- wtf 22:14:58 Gregor: AWESOME 22:15:12 `translatefromto it en fuoco 22:15:14 Gregor: Ten times more awesome than ANYTHING YOU WILL EVER DO 22:15:15 fire 22:15:27 elliott: *sobblecopter* 22:22:20 Hola elliott. 22:22:24 Hecho en Durango. 22:22:43 Sólo necesitas... 22:22:51 Uno. 22:23:32 Fart. 22:23:37 THAT'S SPNAIHS LOL 22:23:59 Pienso que la palabra que buscas es "pedo". 22:24:17 elliott, ¿haces pedo? 22:27:58 tswett: I'm a paedophile, yes. 22:27:59 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:30:00 Como entrenar tu dragón. 22:31:50 Re: Why it works 22:31:52 Ooh. All I can say is that two's complement only has to be actually implemented where the resulting numbers are actually used; a simple addition or subtraction module wouldn't care a bit (no pun intended). --Ihope127 01:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC) 22:31:55 WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON MY WIKIPEDIA TALK PAGE 22:32:35 What are you talking about? I have no idea who that is. 22:32:47 My Wikipedia account is User:Tanner Swett. 22:33:19 tswett: Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure 22:34:18 On nicknames: 10.08.22:11:56:02 But this one is awful. 22:34:29 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 22:34:31 -!- elliott has joined. 22:34:37 elliott: why the /cycle? 22:34:42 Was I saying that the username "tswett" is awful? 22:34:43 it was a mistake 22:34:49 ah 22:34:55 elliott: I don't believe you. 22:34:55 whereas my mistakes tend to be parts, not cycles 22:35:04 tswett: 11:55:55 The only nick I'm actually considering is tswett, so if you want to take what I want from me, register that one. 22:35:07 11:55:59 --- nick: swett -> tswett 22:35:07 11:56:02 But this one is awful. 22:35:17 I see. 22:35:30 Lucky you! 22:35:37 It has ceased to be awful. 22:35:51 tswett: Note "swett -> tswett" :P 22:36:23 Did I also change nicks in between '5:55 and '5:59? 22:36:42 That was a direct paste. 22:36:53 Ah, right. 22:37:06 So there were two of me in play at the time. 22:37:11 Yes. 22:37:13 Funny what can happen with today's technology. 22:37:15 One of the yous was me. 22:37:29 No, that's impossible. Even with today's technology. 22:37:49 That's what I want you to think. 22:38:20 You're pretty benevolent, so I should probably think whatever you want me to think. 22:38:26 What else do you want me to think? 22:38:54 "Giving all my money except that which I require to survive to elliott and devoting my life to developing @ is the best possible thing I could do." 22:39:18 * tswett nods. 22:39:30 tswett: don't 22:39:38 Well, I'll probably have a much better time surviving if I go through university. 22:39:54 And I'll probably have a much better time developing @ if I survive. 22:39:59 That statement was only in the context of money. 22:40:01 Aw, damn. 22:40:08 Well, that's okay. 22:40:10 I suppose I can wait. 22:40:14 So I should put all my time and money toward university. 22:40:17 * tswett nods. 22:40:42 tswett: "Spending lots of my free time on developing @ is an excellent idea. Free time is defined as those periods of time in which I have completed all currently necessary work for university." 22:41:12 Yes, of course. 22:41:12 hey, which Windows IRC client should I recommend to people? 22:41:23 ais523: Linux 22:41:27 heh 22:41:31 I thought that might be the answer 22:41:35 ais523: more seriously, one of the free XChats 22:41:36 PuTTY is pretty good if you know what you're doing. 22:41:43 e.g. Silverex. 22:41:48 tswett: PuTTY is not an IRC client by itself. 22:41:52 Unless you like to type PRIVMSG a lot. 22:41:56 ais523: http://www.silverex.org/news/ 22:42:05 Precisely what I'm saying. 22:42:24 actually 22:42:33 I use PuTTY, but still, it is not good as an IRC client by itself (for more than one reason, actually; it isn't only because of typing PRIVMSG a lot). 22:42:33 ais523: I think http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/ is more actively developed 22:43:05 Like, you would need the messages being received not to override what you are typing, and also ping-pong, as well. 22:43:22 ais523: indeed (http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/wiki/InfoComparison) 22:43:31 silverex seems to be closed source, which is ugh 22:43:35 zzo38: agreed 22:43:40 what license is xchat under? 22:43:58 ais523: GPL, but the Windows builds are for-pay 22:44:00 because they're assholes 22:44:12 (they used to be free, but they decided they weren't getting enough money off suckers) 22:44:17 thus xchat-wdk 22:44:32 oh, GPL, but pay for them to give you the binaries? 22:44:56 ais523: the source tree doesn't work on windows, IIRC 22:45:00 thus why xchat-wdk and the like have to patch it 22:45:04 because it's a Unix program 22:45:10 (sort of) 22:45:34 in that case, they're violating the GPL, but it doesn't matter if they wrote all the code themselves because they could have issued a separate license to themselves 22:45:43 no they're not 22:45:47 how on earth does that violate the GPL? 22:45:54 binaries without matching source? 22:46:00 oh, right 22:46:07 hmm, I wonder if silverex is then illegal 22:46:12 source is available but it doesn't match the binaries, I'm pretty sure it doesn't count 22:46:17 ais523: I think it might be more, custom build system 22:46:20 than source code changes 22:46:25 that violates GPL 3, but not GPL 2 22:49:48 I thought xchat on Windows was from the regular source, I don't think it had any separate sources ... 22:50:06 I thought they made people pay for binaries just because they assume that Windozers won't compile. 22:50:23 (A wholly-supported assumption) 22:50:23 Gregor: They say it's "difficult" and "not automated" and blah blah blah. 22:50:24 Gregor: I once came across a program that was GPL source + "shareware" binary on Windows 22:50:28 I assume they at least have a separate build system. 22:50:34 ais523: AKA XChat 22:50:35 as in, they gave a cut-down version that had a 30-day trial, and asked you to pay to keep it for longer 22:50:42 Well, depends on the definition of shareware :P 22:50:52 Namely it has to mean something it doesn't mean >_> 22:50:53 so I just used the source to see how the free-trial code worked, and patched it out 22:51:08 ISTR you telling us about this 22:51:13 it was a fork of gcc, right/ 22:51:14 *right? 22:53:52 yes 22:54:24 I don't really care if they make people pay for binaries as long as you can still compile it by yourself (without too much difficulty) and redistribute copies (modified or not) under the same terms, and that someone selling it by itself does not claim it is official distribution unless they: have permission, make substantial modifications, or include it as part of other things. 22:54:40 Or changes the name. 22:58:26 I have some ideas for GPL v4 for what they might make in future: One is to have a copy of the license formatted in Plain TeX for CWEB programs (and other documents). Another is to allow the licensor to specify that their version is official and unofficial one should be marked differently (such as a different package, a different name, or a different scheme for version numbers), as long as such things cannot affect the usage of the software and 22:59:42 And I think I read somewhere they wanted to include the GNU Manifesto with GPL licensed software? I don't think so, but perhaps include a shortened form of it in the preamble of the license. 23:00:02 Another is to allow the licensor to specify that their version is official and unofficial one should be marked differently <--- GPLv3 allows reasonable restrictions like that 23:01:22 ais523: I read the license but am not sure about everything completely 23:01:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:02:12 I have forked some GPL software (some version 2 and some version 3), I had made sure to make specified not confused with original software, either by changing the name or using a different version numbering scheme. 23:02:52 -!- variable has joined. 23:02:53 Same name, different version numbering scheme: Not confusing at all! 23:03:02 This is sometimes done with MegaZeux, the different forked versions are usually given different version numbering schemes or some title after the program but before the version number. 23:04:18 Obviously it depends what kind of version numbering scheme. It has to be one that cannot be confused with others. For example, I made MegaZeux versions numbered "P1", "P2", "P3" and so on; while some other forks use other notations in the version numbers. 23:05:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:05:39 So if you fork something, you can mark it as a fork simply by sticking another word after the title? 23:06:01 -!- augur has joined. 23:06:04 Like Chromium Indigo, or GHC Indigo, or NetHack Indigo? 23:06:13 Though NetHack isn't under the GPL, of course. 23:06:19 As long as you do not allow it to get confused with other things, I guess. 23:06:31 I mean, it's under the GPL, but it's the wrong one. :P 23:07:32 I would guess your example works. 23:07:34 -!- invariable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed). 23:07:51 But I did not write the GPL or the other licenses. 23:07:51 it's under a modified version of the Bison license 23:07:55 which is like GPL 0 23:08:06 GPL Indigo. :P 23:08:22 ais523: haha, really? 23:08:29 I didn't know Bison predated the GPL 23:08:31 elliott: NetHack, that is 23:08:35 err, what license was GPL 1 under? 23:08:40 er 23:08:42 GCC 1 23:08:43 no-derivs 23:08:50 ais523: really? 23:08:52 ais523: that's awful 23:08:55 elliott: that's the license GPL 1 was under 23:08:58 gcc 1, I don't know 23:09:10 I think it's a little ridiculous that the GPL is under no-derivs, but there you go 23:09:22 the FSF doesn't believe in license-freedom for anything but software 23:09:29 I once modified the WTFPL to be under the WTFPL 23:09:33 just to amuse myself 23:09:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:09:43 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 23:10:12 People are informally allowed to modify the GPL as long as they remove certain stuff. 23:10:20 What? 23:10:21 The GPL can be modified to make something that is not the GPL, but only to make a new license for different software, and you have to remove the preamble and postamble, and should not be called the same thing. That is how GPL itself is licensed. 23:11:14 However it is usually discouraged due to causing incompatibilities (you can specify explicit compatibility if you want to, though, I guess). 23:15:15 Other ideas for GPL v4 (if they choose to use these ideas) is something regarding literate programming, if that would help. 23:15:48 If you sell the book it would be a good idea to include a copy of the license in the book as well as a machine-readable copy such as a DVD in the back of the book, or something like that. 23:16:27 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:19:23 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:28:18 gah, there appears to be no gmp irc channel 23:28:48 elliott: Tell them to make one 23:28:56 ... 23:28:57 Tell the gmp 23:32:31 ... 23:33:45 ... 23:34:10 !!! 23:35:03 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:36:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 23:36:36 The LGPL, AGPL, and FDL, are not available in ODF, and none of them are available in Plain TeX. Also, the LGPL is not available in LaTeX. And they have GNU license logos but not with METAFONT. 23:36:58 -!- azaq23 has joined. 23:37:19 They're available in plain text 23:38:18 why should they be available in ODF or TeX? 23:38:40 elliott: yes 23:38:41 Yes it is, all are available in plain ASCII text. It can also probably be included in ODF and TeX, but it isn't formatted as well as it could be. 23:38:48 coppro: ? 23:38:57 coppro: yes what 23:39:04 elliott: I expect you to infer the question I am answering 23:39:15 coppro: I expect your mom to infer the question I am answering 23:39:19 coppro: Some people probably use ODF (the main GPL license is available under ODF), and they should be available in Plain TeX too, including for literate programming. 23:39:29 coppro: Or in other words, no u 23:39:42 (I do not use ODF myself, but probably some people will) 23:42:22 Well, gmp is totally worthless. 23:45:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:45:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 23:46:56 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to WHARRGARBL. 23:47:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 23:47:15 -!- azaq23 has joined. 23:48:01 The other thing I would like to have from them, is not only the Plain TeX format of licenses but also the license logos with METAFONT. 23:48:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 2011-04-11: 00:05:19 Google Alerts tells me it found my name here: http://twitter.com/cerias/status/55662898420260864 00:05:25 Now, Google Alerts was of course right. 00:05:35 The question is, why did CERIAS feel the need to tweet every bloody poster? 00:05:46 Gregor: Because they love you. 00:06:07 Also: lol @ having a Google Alert on your own name :P 00:06:14 Narcissism: I has it. 00:08:51 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:09:19 -!- sftp has joined. 00:16:25 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:56:21 Like, it should be, if you make a program with WEB or Enhanced CWEB or whatever, you should publish the book and include a DVD in the back cover of the book, for loading the program into your computer. 00:57:34 AHW*(R()E*TH(WEHGISGH 00:58:24 What is "AHW*(R()E*TH(WEHGISGH"? 00:59:40 Yes. 01:00:09 the ancient gothic god of mismatched brackets 01:17:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:40:22 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:07:08 -!- WHARRGARBL has changed nick to coWHARRGARBL. 02:18:33 -!- calamari has joined. 02:21:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:27:20 coWHARRGARBL: lol 02:27:30 WHARRRGARBL 02:27:40 coWHARRGARBL: hello 02:32:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:37:28 * tswett investigates Google Alerts. 02:37:48 There's only one result for my name, and it's false. 02:38:50 Ivan Hope, or Tanner Swett? or Warrigal? 02:39:03 My actual real name. 02:39:07 I.e. the latter. 02:39:09 Ivan Hope then! 02:39:15 The latter is Warrigal :P 02:39:25 The latter is the second of two. 02:39:25 wow, the Christian Party are Poe's Law exemplified 02:39:28 replace the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' with the more biblical 'evidence of two or three reliable witnesses' in the criminal justice system. 02:39:36 Hmm 02:39:37 lat·ter/ˈlatər/Adjective 02:39:38 1. Situated or occurring nearer to the end of something than to the beginning. 02:39:38 2. Belonging to the final stages of something. More » 02:39:42 latter 02:39:42 relating to or being the second of two items 02:39:43 near (or nearer) to the end 02:39:43 close (or closer) to the present time 02:39:57 Since there were three items, I was interpreting it as the obvious generalisation as the last one 02:39:59 I'm using it in the former sense. :P 02:40:08 In Wales the party wants to change the Welsh flag, because it views the red dragon as a satanic symbol, they would replace it with the cross of Saint David.[10] 02:40:18 I've... actually not used "latter" to mean "last". I think of it as meaning "all but first". 02:40:31 So out of three options, I would think of the latter two. 02:40:41 Anyway, "Tanner Swett" is what I searched for. 02:40:42 the latter N is the last N, I would say 02:41:01 Indeed. 02:41:02 The options are A, B, C and D; the latter two have the problem that they're gay, the first has the problem that it sucks, and the second has the problem that it's made out of fish. 02:41:55 ais523: Have you ever ran a Perl script over GCC's output? 02:42:11 elliott: I don't think so 02:42:19 It's quite errr, enlightening 02:42:31 What I'm saying is, dear god someone tell Gregor he's mad. 02:42:32 I've ran a Perl script over makefiles generated during gcc's build process before now, though 02:43:03 * tswett searches for 'john powell' and finds that most of the results are for the wrong word. 02:43:09 Why does John Powell have to be so many people? 02:43:47 ais523: you too! There must be... at least 523 of you! 02:43:57 Gregor: you're an evil mangler 02:45:47 tswett: I think so; there are 10 Alex Smiths more famous than me, imagine how many must be less famous 02:46:32 billions and billions 02:46:49 I do not think there is any need to change the flag, since it already exists. The red dragon can also be seen as a red dragon instead of a satanic symbol; although if there are more than enough people that prefer change the flag to the cross, then maybe they should do so. I myself don't care much as I do not live there. 02:46:58 I'm pretty sure that a majority of people on Earth are named Alex Smith. 02:47:33 tswett: What percentage do you expect? I know someone who had the same name as a few people and caused confusion, someone thought he was their boss even though he wasn't. 02:48:08 gah, the label has failed 02:48:13 I expect... 0.1%. 02:48:16 this is so brittle 02:48:24 That may be a bit high, come to think of it. 02:48:34 * tswett shrugs. 02:48:51 tswett: 6.79 million people are called Alex Smith?!?!?!?! 02:49:00 they could found a fucking country 02:49:11 "morning Alex" 02:49:12 "morning!" 02:49:15 "where you off to, Alex?" 02:49:17 "ah, just going to work" 02:49:23 "Ah, hello, I'm here to see Mr. Smith" 02:49:26 "Which one?" 02:49:35 Oh, wait. I'm assuming everyone has an Englishy name. 02:49:40 :D 02:50:27 moon power bitches 02:50:56 Okay, let's assume that... 6% of all people have Englishy names. 02:51:07 Then the number becomes 0.006%, I believe. 02:51:28 Then there are only, like, 400,000 of ais523. 02:52:28 Ihope there are not too many ais523. It would Warrigal me a lot and I might even break out into tswett. 02:52:37 (Warrigal: SOUNDS LIKE "WORRY") 02:55:58 you know, if everyone had the same name you'd have to start giving auxiliary names to tell all the alex smiths apart 02:56:14 and eventually you could just drop the alex smith part 02:57:27 :D 02:57:38 I'm Alex Smith Jacque Loutique. 02:57:44 Oh, hi. I'm Alex Smith Azerbajan Remi. 02:57:54 (ELLIOTT MAKES UP NAMES) 02:58:25 alex is good, because it could be short for both alexander and alexandra 02:58:25 tswett: HELLO 02:58:43 It could also be short for Alxe-wielding insane hobo. 02:58:43 so you could definitely start and maintain a country where everyone has that name 02:58:44 The l is silent. 03:00:13 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:00:18 -!- elliott has joined. 03:00:21 HELLO HELLO HELLO 03:06:27 heo heo heo 03:07:59 tswett is actually a elephant. did you know? 03:08:13 So, a friend gave me a password to something 03:08:19 So I'm logged in as her 03:08:22 Kinky. 03:08:30 *So, 03:09:22 Sgeo__: We're still waiting for the point. 03:09:31 No point 03:09:34 I just feel weird 03:11:02 we've waited for the point for years 03:11:33 Sgeo__: you know who *else* dressed up in the skin of women? 03:11:54 IT PUTS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN 03:12:33 *RUBS 03:13:56 hmm, the sequences are even longer than i remember 03:15:01 smell my breakfast bitch 03:15:20 sorry, i don't eat dogs 03:15:42 let's see... 9 + let's say 29 (cba to count them all) + 03:15:58 7 + 03:16:02 5 + 03:16:07 no wait 03:16:09 that's just the most important posts 03:16:23 9 + 29 + 14 + 03:16:42 21 + 03:17:08 14 + 03:17:19 5 + 03:17:30 24 + 03:17:53 28 + 03:17:58 15 + 03:18:01 83 + 03:18:02 holy fucking fuck how many fucking posts are there 03:18:09 oerjan: i'm actually counting blog posts here 03:18:19 * oerjan whistles evilly 03:18:21 18 + 03:18:24 * elliott adds the totals so far 03:18:38 162 + 03:18:48 7 + 11 + 03:18:55 12 + 03:19:07 are you counting all the blog posts, or some particular category? 03:19:27 17 + a bit (minor subsequences) 03:19:43 olsner: I'm counting the number of blog posts that together constitute Less Wrong's Sequences 03:20:01 aka what you get told to go and read the entirety of if you comment on less wrong and someone disagrees :D 03:20:09 6 + 03:20:26 current total: 215 + a bit 03:20:49 24 + 03:20:58 9 + 03:21:05 8 + 03:21:16 15 + 03:21:46 38 + 03:22:12 31 03:22:36 so in the *main* Sequences series, there's 340 posts. plus dependencies. 03:23:01 misc. Yudkowsky sequences: 03:23:14 7 + 11 + 03:23:31 evolution posts that i'm too sick of this to count + 03:23:40 13 03:23:43 + 03:23:50 14 + more 03:24:00 i'm not going to count other people's sequences because this is FUCKING ENOUGH 03:24:19 so the total is 385 plus dependencies plus ones that nobody bothered to include in the lists because there's too fucking many 03:24:24 olsner: oerjan: any questions 03:24:44 only "wat?" 03:25:04 what are you talking about? 03:25:21 olsner: do you know what Less Wrong is, because if not i can't even hope to give an answer :) 03:25:34 nope, I don't 03:25:36 oops! i missed one 03:25:50 28 03:25:52 whatever 03:26:01 olsner: then i'm not even going to bother trying to explain :) 03:26:10 okelidokeli 03:26:31 *okely dokely, you stupid scannd 03:26:40 w/e 03:27:06 now, i'm fairly sure oerjan knows, so i'm going to say OVER 385 POSTS FFFFFFFFF 03:27:34 so basically the sequences are longer than the somplete sacred texts of some major religions? 03:27:41 *complete 03:27:41 oerjan: :D 03:27:50 oerjan: i dunno, the bible is easily 400 blog posts i'm sure :) 03:28:02 especially if you include all the rationalisations from way back when to present 03:28:06 and err "interpretations" 03:28:07 i guess it depends on post length 03:28:15 oerjan: yudkowsky length 03:28:23 'nuff said 03:28:36 um those are long aren't they... 03:28:42 quite :P 03:28:51 but i mean 03:28:58 a page or two of the bible would easily fill a yudkowsky post 03:29:10 and the bible is pretty long... 03:30:23 Some books of the Bible are rather short 03:32:14 There are 1,281 pages in the Bible (Old and New Testament combined), including 66 different "books"... 03:32:16 clearly a reliable source 03:32:18 anyway it's a long book 03:32:40 seriously though. 03:32:42 jesus fuck. 03:34:20 The number of pages should depend what print edition you have? The number of different books, though, should remain the same (unless it differs by counting apocrypha/deutrocanonical or not) 03:35:59 From a long lineof virgins? 03:36:44 wtf, how did this happen 03:36:56 oh 03:36:57 it erased dead code 03:36:59 fucking fuckshit 03:38:29 I give up until Gregor mangles labels :P 03:38:31 Or I guess I could. 03:38:33 But it sounds painful. 03:40:12 Wait... he DOES... 03:41:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:42:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:42:51 * calamari wishes he could fork off a copy of himself then join later 03:43:13 you can, just think about two things at once 03:43:17 or do you mean physically 03:43:33 physically :) 03:43:47 meh, who cares about atoms? 03:43:49 although maybe you could write code and play videogames at the same time, you're pretty bright :) 03:44:01 that's a physical issue, mostly 03:44:03 wrt control 03:44:10 and the fact that it's hard to look at two things at once 03:44:22 also, videogaming tends to be a multi-core kind of thing, it uses all the available system resources 03:46:35 calamari: mind you, the human brain's low thread limit is also a physical issue :) 03:46:51 yeah my brain is mostly single threaded 03:47:17 I'm one of those people whjere if I'm driving, it's dangerous for me to be doing much of anything else 03:47:24 i look forward to moving into some leet 128-core brain hardware in the future 03:47:30 preferably digital too, to stop all these stupid bits flipping 03:49:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Thai dung). 03:54:26 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:59:25 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:00:10 -!- coWHARRGARBL has changed nick to failedhipster. 04:01:07 -!- failedhipster has changed nick to copumpkin. 04:02:40 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:10:52 tswett is no longer a duck. he is now a bear. 04:13:00 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:21:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:23:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:37:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:39:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:43:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:02:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:04:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:04:28 I had an idea of music file format, how well would it work? There are three parts: a MIDI sequence, a synthesizer program, and a conversion table from MIDI note numbers to other numbers (usually the frequency of the notes, but can be used for whatever purpose you want). 05:06:37 The MIDI sequence would consist of four threads, each with four registers: instruction counter, delta counter, loop counter, and auxiliary counter. It can also contain external signal messages, which might be used for singing text or whatever. 05:06:57 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:10:38 The synthesizer program would have sixteen threads, one for each MIDI channel, with 128 registers each (changeable by the program itself as well as by MIDI control change messages); in addition, there are 128 programs which one is used on which channel is selected by a MIDI program change message. 05:11:08 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:11:27 Is it good? Is it sensible? 05:17:11 In addition, there can be some special programs that can be selected instead of writing your own; these could include one to just play sample data (as a module tracker program might do). 06:17:10 -!- celticwench has joined. 06:17:47 hello all :) 06:22:47 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 06:38:22 -!- celticwench has quit (Quit: Byeeee.....eyyy...eyyyy....). 06:40:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 06:41:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:28:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:40 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>). 07:49:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:51:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:54:18 -!- Lymia has joined. 07:54:18 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 07:54:18 -!- Lymia has joined. 07:54:18 Do you know Giveaway Chess (also called Losing Chess and Suicide Chess)? 07:54:40 -!- Lymia has quit (Client Quit). 07:58:20 -!- Lymia has joined. 07:58:20 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 07:58:20 -!- Lymia has joined. 07:59:35 -!- Lymia has quit (Client Quit). 08:06:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:11:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:21:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 08:30:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:31:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:31:58 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:31:58 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 08:31:58 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:39:00 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:41:00 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:47:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:47:59 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>). 08:49:49 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:49:49 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 08:49:49 -!- Lymia has joined. 08:51:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:57:08 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:14:35 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:14:50 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 09:33:57 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:47:03 -!- cheater- has joined. 09:49:23 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:10:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:12:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:27:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:32:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:44:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:52:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:08:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:12:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:31:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:32:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:48:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:52:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:06:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:33:18 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:59:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:41:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:45:40 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 13:46:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:47:00 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:48:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:51:54 -!- sftp has joined. 13:54:01 critical vlc failure. On this DVD it shows I'm at 05:01/00:17 14:08:57 -!- augur has joined. 14:23:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:27:08 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:30:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:32:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:33:33 -!- augur has joined. 14:38:06 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:38:13 -!- SimonRC has joined. 14:55:39 -!- Ilari has joined. 15:02:14 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 15:06:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:24:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:27:05 -!- augur has joined. 15:27:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:32:03 -!- Zuu has joined. 15:32:54 APNIC down 0.02 (6930944, 0.413 blocsk left): 3x8k+4k+1k+/32+/48 to Australia, 32k+4k to China, 3x4k+1k to Japan, 32k to South Korea, 1k to Philippines, 2k+2x1k+/32 to Singapore, 4x16k to Vietnam, 2k+1k to Vanatu. Slow day. 15:34:18 New depletion estimate: Monday 18th April. 15:41:02 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:48:50 -!- elliott has joined. 15:49:07 19:20:02 * SgeoN1 vaguely wonders where his dad is 15:49:07 19:32:18 In case anyone was worried or otherwise cares: don't be 15:49:07 19:32:22 He's ok 15:49:07 THANK GOD 15:49:38 oh hi cpressey 15:51:28 hi elliott 15:51:53 is/was cpressey zomgmodules? 15:52:25 you can't say ((car (quote (cdr car))) (quote (a b))) in Scheme, but you can say *[*[*car [*cdr *car]] [a b]] in Bizaaro-Pixley! 15:54:05 cpressey: erm the scheme equivalent is 15:54:14 ((car (quasiquote ((unquote cdr) (unquote car) ... 15:54:17 which DOES work :P 15:54:23 or you could use lambdas 15:54:55 does bizaaro-pixley have lambdas? 15:55:00 yes 15:55:04 I'd just allow any quoted cons to be used as a function 15:55:11 and bind its single argument to "x" or something :) 15:55:21 or maybe have it like [x *[car *x]] 15:55:27 that would be slightly more reasonable 15:55:29 i'm sure you would 15:55:42 well picolisp would too :p 16:00:01 thus concludes this morning's session of leaving elliott nonplussed 16:00:05 back later 16:00:07 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:01:12 morning? what a joker, it's just 19h past bedtime 16:01:48 :D 16:02:40 so I think I'll just have breakfast and go to bed 16:06:59 fuuuck. Maybe elliott knows the answer to this: 16:07:11 .IFO detected. Redirecting to dvd:// 16:07:12 There are 2 titles on this DVD. 16:07:12 There are 1 angles in this DVD title. 16:07:19 how do I get mplayer to play the second title 16:07:43 I can't get mplayer to even open the dvd menu, and vlc opens it but I can't find the second title 16:10:39 you give it the option for selecting a title, or you press the button for going to the next title 16:10:43 obv. 16:11:03 olsner: breakfast? Swedes have breakfast? 16:11:09 i thought all meal times were Regular Ordinary Swedish Meal Times 16:11:19 Vorpal: it's... part of the path 16:11:22 dvd://something/something 16:11:23 I think 16:11:30 yes, breakfast *is* a regular ordinary swedish meal time 16:11:43 olsner: CRUSH THE CEREAL 16:11:47 elliott, hm 16:11:54 including the pre-breakfast snack: it's good for you 16:11:56 DVD Playback 16:11:56 As mentioned above, MPlayer does not support the playback of DVD menus. To play the first title on a DVD, use 16:11:56 $ mplayer dvd:// 16:11:56 If the first title is not the main movie, try playing other titles: 16:11:57 $ mplayer dvd://2 16:11:59 $ mplayer dvd://3 16:12:01 http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/MPlayer 16:12:06 elliott, but it doesn't even want to accept dvd:// when it is a file on the disc. I have to give it the .IFO file thingy 16:12:07 Vorpal: the great juffgy triumphs once again 16:12:20 v 16:12:21 elliott, as in... file on hard disk 16:12:22 Vorpal: erm 16:12:33 Vorpal: try /home/arvid/poop.ifo/blah 16:12:34 elliott, I don't have the dvd handy. I have the ripped stuff 16:12:38 elliott, hah 16:12:38 and stick a dvd:// in front if that doesn't help :) 16:12:54 mplayer [dvd|dvdnav]://[title|[start_title]-end_title][/device] 16:13:01 Vorpal: dvd://2/home/arvid/blah 16:13:02 presumably 16:13:19 elliott, hm 16:13:23 dunno what dvdnav is mind you 16:13:32 ah 16:13:34 menu support :D 16:13:39 used with keypad! 16:13:47 elliott, dvd://2//home/arvid/blah even 16:13:55 but i think my previous address should work 16:14:11 elliott, nope, it was a relative path :P 16:14:16 so you need an extra / 16:14:23 perfectly sensible 16:14:54 but what the crap. This isn't the stuff I expect. This is just the logo. -_- 16:18:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:18:17 Vorpal fails to watch a movie 16:24:06 olsner, quite. Meh. Will have to find it another way 16:25:08 Vorpal: or you could just try title 3, 4 16:25:12 or use dvdnav 16:25:26 I hear there are places where people set up the movie for you, you just sit there and it rolls 16:25:40 olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old. 16:26:03 olsner, besides I can google for stuff in it at the same time. And no popcorn 16:26:05 yay 16:26:26 the sound of crunching popcorn is annoying 16:26:40 crunchcrunch 16:26:54 it's less annoying if you're the one making it 16:26:57 olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old. 16:27:01 ^ worst excuse for porn ever 16:27:16 elliott, hahahaha. You must have a very strange taste. 16:27:30 elliott, to consider Cosmos by Carl Sagan... porn. 16:27:52 carl sagan porn? ewww :/ 16:27:59 olsner, my reaction indeed! 16:28:04 olsner, what can elliott be up to 16:28:11 gross 16:28:16 this is worse than auto-tuning his voice 16:28:21 Vorpal is a sicko 16:28:22 elliott, hey it is you who made that up! 16:28:23 http://codu.org/tmp/reverb-2011-04-11.ogg <-- check out the sweet room reverb generator I made :) 16:28:51 Gregor: Are you actually writing a whole music conductor program thing :P 16:29:00 elliott: One step at a time, yes. 16:29:01 Gregor, why is there so much noise in it? 16:29:12 Vorpal: Because I don't mix very well, I'm working on it :P 16:29:15 Gregor: What were you using before 16:29:24 Gregor, sure you didn't turn on the LP effect? 16:29:29 elliott: fluidsynth, sox, and no conductor program. 16:29:40 variable: Har-dee-har. 16:29:43 Erm 16:29:46 Vorpal: ^^^ 16:29:48 Yeah, that variable. 16:29:51 Always such a joker. 16:30:04 Also, I conclude that Vorpal has never heard an LP, ever. 16:30:44 elliott, actually I had. And yes the noise is somewhat different. This is more like bad cassette recording or such. 16:31:03 Would you jerkfaces focus on the reverb instead of the noise :P 16:31:17 Gregor, what reverb? Can I hear a before/after to compare? 16:31:27 I haven't focussed on the noise 16:31:39 My professional opinion is that it sounds like reverb, though 16:31:58 Gregor: Now turn the reverb up 16:31:58 to 16:32:00 another non-essential thing to concentrate on: nice music 16:32:00 MAXIMUM 16:32:06 elliott, is that 11? 16:36:26 *oh* found it. The box says something else than the discs say. Part 2 is on disc 2. Even though nothing else indicate this is the case. Oh well. 16:37:42 so every disc except the first has two episodes 16:37:43 okay 16:37:52 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:41:28 (I assumed it was the last one that had just one episode, which the box indicated too) 17:13:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:13:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:13:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:13:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:16:19 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:17:22 hm, you can also say ((car (list cdr car)) (quote (a b))) in Scheme, because list evaluates its arguments. 17:18:05 indeed 17:18:24 (quasiquote (unquote cdr) (unquote car)) = (cons cdr (cons car '())) = (list cdr car) 17:18:31 -!- monqy has joined. 17:18:39 and bizarro-Pixley [] is quasiquote, and * is unquote 17:18:59 with the whole thing being in a sort of implicit (car (quasiquote ...)) 17:19:04 (for *x at the top level) 17:19:12 erm 17:19:21 (car (quasiquote (... ()))) 17:19:22 that is 17:19:44 no, there's no quasiquote in bizaaro-Pixley, just quote and eval 17:20:22 er, with quote being implicit 17:20:30 cpressey: what is the result of [*[*+ *2 *2] blah] in a hypothetical bizarro-Pixley with those functions and integers? 17:20:40 elliott: [*[*+ *2 *2] blah] 17:20:55 what is the result of *[car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] 17:20:56 well, no, malformed, because you have a triple in there :) 17:21:09 you know what I mean :) 17:21:15 pretend triples exist :p 17:21:38 *[car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => error, because evaling a pair where the lhs is not a function is an error (but i'm considering changing the meaning of evaling a pair, so stay tuned) 17:21:52 what is the result of *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] 17:22:33 *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => error because *4 is not a function 17:22:53 um 17:22:56 what is the result of [*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] 17:23:03 hm, wait 17:23:11 your semantics, they is incoherent to me 17:23:34 i'm fairly sure what you have is [a b] = (quasiquote (a . b)) and *x = (unquote x)... 17:23:35 *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => *4 17:23:44 then yes, you have quasiquote and unquote 17:23:46 i think. i don't know, i don't have fricken integers! 17:23:50 if [] was quote, then you'd just get 17:23:53 *[*+ *2 *2] 17:23:54 back 17:24:14 not quite 17:24:21 car takes a pair 17:24:25 and does things to it 17:24:31 it's not a general quasiquote 17:24:41 so does car actually get the car and then evaluate that? 17:24:47 yes 17:25:00 i'll hold off thinking about this until there's an implementation :-P 17:25:15 there is one, but i'm holding off releasing it until i decide i like it a lot 17:25:51 meh, all languages are just inferior versions of thue 17:28:16 i have some ideas about making cons superfluous and replacing lambdas with "pure closures", but they're just ideas right now 17:28:26 who needs closurse? 17:28:29 *closures? 17:31:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:31:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 17:31:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:34:11 -!- wareya has joined. 17:34:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:35:13 elliott: ah lahks lexical bindings 17:35:33 cpressey: when john mccarthy made lisp 1.0 did he use lexical bindings NO HE DID NOT 17:35:36 are you questioning mccarthy 17:36:39 yes, i am 17:36:57 Mr. McCarthy, isn't it true you have been seen in the presence of several known members of the Communist Party? 17:37:22 oh he isn't here 17:37:22 oops 17:38:50 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:38:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:39:05 hi ais523456789 17:45:43 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:49:34 I should try to get uplink demo running hm 17:50:01 ooh nice.... a self-extracting shellscript 17:50:03 "fun" 17:50:54 .setup17415: error while loading shared libraries: libgtk-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 17:50:57 gnh 17:52:40 ./lib/uplink.bin.x86: error while loading shared libraries: libjpeg.so.62: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 17:52:41 gah 17:53:31 elliott, I think dynamic linking is acceptable when it is for core distro package. But not for "binary blobs" 17:56:47 okay it kind of starts now 17:58:09 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:00:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:05:11 -!- wareya has joined. 18:10:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:26:06 elliott, I got uplink running fine. However it is made for lower DPI screens 18:41:17 -!- kassioms has joined. 18:42:16 -!- kassioms has left. 18:43:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:49:24 carl sagan porn? ewww :/ 18:49:31 http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceporn 18:49:41 i think that's close enough 18:50:02 weird result from typoing in units: http://sprunge.us/ZcAf <-- what's up with the first one 18:50:08 m^5 what? 18:50:41 You have: m to m 18:50:42 You want: 18:50:42 Definition: 0.018039068 m^5 18:50:43 same 18:50:44 wtf 18:50:50 *oh* 18:50:52 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:50:53 to is an unit 18:50:53 Hi :-) 18:51:07 which is volume it seems 18:51:08 the knew /r/*Porn subreddits are going to pose an interesting conundrum for net nannies... 18:51:12 *new 18:51:24 oerjan, there are uh, several? 18:51:25 wtf 18:51:47 yes, there are 10 listed sister reddits on that page 18:52:39 i think EarthPorn may have been the first with that naming convention 18:52:40 oerjan, oh, not actually porn as such 18:52:55 or, humanporn might be 18:53:15 you might think, but no... 18:53:21 * oerjan visited that one before 18:53:21 oerjan, then what is it? 18:53:31 oerjan: erm tv tropes sort of pioneered it no? 18:53:35 Scenery Porn and whatnot 18:53:41 wel 18:53:41 i think there is also a plain /r/porn, which _is_ what it sounds like 18:53:42 *well 18:53:48 i think that actually predates tvtropes 18:53:49 elliott: that may be 18:54:06 also "gorn" which is an obvious contraction 18:54:06 oerjan, what is humanporn, I can't figure it out 18:54:22 elliott: however the subreddits started getting created only a month or so ago 18:54:31 elliott, isn't that like an violence instead of sex? 18:54:33 well your mom only started getting created a month or so ago. shut up. 18:54:42 oh man /r/earthporn is not going to be good for me 18:54:49 Vorpal: i think the actual subject is something like "awesome people" 18:54:52 my list of places to visit will never stop increasing 18:54:56 oerjan, hah 18:54:58 portraits, really 18:55:05 why did you tell me about this oerjan 18:55:13 so pretty ;_; 18:55:13 oh there are descriptions on the side 18:55:14 right 18:55:17 "This subreddit is devoted to hi-res artistic portraits of individuals or groups of people. NSFW content is allowed, as long as it is flagged as NSFW." 18:55:24 humanporn: "This subreddit is devoted to hi-res artistic portraits of individuals or groups of people. NSFW content is allowed, as long as it is flagged as NSFW. There is a difference between art and smut. All smut will be removed, there are other subreddits for that." 18:55:26 go figure 18:56:57 oerjan is a very bad person 18:57:22 http://imgur.com/s/Ggybq what 18:57:56 elliott, I'd guess a saltlake at dawn or dusk 18:58:07 oh wait spaceporn is actually older than earthporn 18:58:13 it's absolutely surreal 18:58:35 elliott, based on the title: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_Lake 18:58:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_Lake it's this 18:58:53 elliott, I beat you to that 18:58:54 why is everywhere so pretty ;;;___;;; 18:59:01 elliott, salt lake indeed as I said 18:59:16 whyyy 19:00:20 hm wasn't mono lake that place they found those arsenic bacteria 19:00:25 *where 19:00:46 zyes 19:01:03 oerjan: you have to buy my plane tickets for me 19:01:19 :D 19:01:41 oerjan: IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT 19:02:15 elliott, speaking of tvtropes above. Their article on Dwarf Fortress is quite amusing 19:04:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:07:03 olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old. 19:07:24 there _are_ film clubs and the like that show old films. at least there is one in trondheim. 19:07:59 although wasn't cosmos a tv series rather than a movie 19:08:51 this is worse than auto-tuning his voice 19:09:31 * oerjan now has the vague image of adjusting the visuals to be pornographic, while keeping the soundtrack as usual 19:10:12 oerjan, you have a dirty mind : 19:10:21 although wasn't cosmos a tv series rather than a movie <-- indeed 19:10:50 also: s/ :$// 19:11:59 :D 19:12:22 i wonder if carl sagan and david attenborough ever made anything together 19:12:23 wait 19:12:27 the world still exists 19:12:36 * elliott checks Has The Earth Exploded From Awesomeness Yet? 19:12:40 nope, guess they never did 19:12:55 -!- augur has joined. 19:13:28 elliott, argh. 5 hours to go for next disc... 19:13:39 (yes the mail delivers in the night) 19:15:39 elliott: it would appear they were at least autotuned into the same piece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_of_Science#The_Unbroken_Thread 19:16:16 THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY MESS WITH 19:16:26 i've never actually listened to any of the post-glorious-dawn ones PROBABLY THEY SOLD OUT 19:17:11 Vorpal: what's the gcc stuff for likely/unlikely branches? 19:18:45 elliott, uh, check manual, I don't remember it offhand. Something like __builtin_gcc_expect iirc 19:18:57 elliott, basically likely/unlikely are kernel macros 19:19:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:19:37 I know that much 19:19:39 it was the name i forgot 19:19:51 lol, it lectures me to profile 19:19:57 I'M NOT PROFILING FOR YOU 19:20:21 i suppose i can imagine a universe where bignum+bignum arithmetic is more common than bignum+fixnum or fixnum+fixnum, but it's sure as hell not this one 19:20:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:21:18 elliott, profile to see if it actually helps 19:21:29 meh, all languages are just inferior versions of thue 19:21:49 i actually find /// / Itflabtijtslwi more elegant than thue 19:22:02 oerjan, "Itflabtijtslwi"? 19:22:16 what a name 19:22:27 for one thing the latter can do arbitrary stdin/stdout IO 19:23:06 Vorpal: ignore this fancy little acronym, basically this is just that slashes language with input 19:23:14 oerjan, haha 19:24:34 * oerjan wasn't the one to name it though 19:24:51 although i did write the slightly nontrivial programs 19:26:30 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:41:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:47:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]). 19:48:44 oerjan, so is it BF-IO complete? 19:48:49 oerjan, or is it more limited? 19:50:47 assuming that means it can read and write any byte, then i believe so (although it needs a large table of characters if it is to recognize all of them, similarly to unlambda) 19:52:19 as in, i see no fundamental obstacles, given that i could write rot13 in it 19:52:46 -!- asiekierka has joined. 19:53:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:54:17 oerjan, ah 19:54:27 oerjan, what about the zero byte? 19:55:57 shouldn't be a problem. it has a separate convention for EOF distinct from any character (in fact that _was_ my decision to clarify the spec when i wrote the perl implementation) 19:56:50 well unless there is some bug related to how perl deals with NULs, but i would consider that a flaw in the implementation, not the language 19:57:42 i don't know exactly how perl does that stuff 19:59:06 this means that it should be _more_ IO-complete than an 8-bit BF implementation which cannot avoid confusing some characters with EOF 20:04:39 hah 20:04:51 oerjan, how do you tell them apart in the source code? 20:06:24 tell what apart? 20:08:31 the GG command reads a char if available, and substitutes it for a chosen string. eof substitutes the empty string instead. 20:09:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:11:34 If it was up to me, I would have the C pointers with NULL work like: An implicit cast from a constant 0 is NULL. An implicit cast from any other number, or a non-constant 0, is a compile error. An explicit cast from any number to a pointer is the corresponding address, so 0 might not necessarily be NULL. 20:12:37 An implicit cast from a pointer to boolean is true if and only if it is not NULL. An implicit cast from pointer to number is a compiler error, but an explicit cast works and 0 will not necessarily be NULL. 20:20:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:20:30 zzo38, how do you determine at compile time if something is an "non-constant 0" as opposed to for example, a number in the range 3-4? "An implicit cast from any other number, or a non-constant 0, is a compile error." 20:21:25 of course it doesn't really matter for this 20:21:48 If the compiler sees it a constant expression or not, I mean, an expression without variable/function call 20:21:55 right 20:47:15 night 20:49:17 -!- elliott has joined. 20:49:20 19:21:18: elliott, profile to see if it actually helps 20:49:22 difficult 20:49:24 it's not an application 20:49:44 elliott, what was it then? 20:49:44 (in this case, gcc is being used to generate instruction implementations for a JIT) 20:49:49 elliott, ah 20:49:54 19:21:49: i actually find /// / Itflabtijtslwi more elegant than thue 20:49:56 oerjan: that's true. 20:50:00 elliott, you could do test cases with/without it maybe 20:50:06 -!- zzo38 has left. 20:50:20 19:50:47: assuming that means it can read and write any byte, then i believe so (although it needs a large table of characters if it is to recognize all of them, similarly to unlambda) 20:50:27 oerjan: it's more like that + arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point 20:50:28 e.g. the 20:50:37 B... = bf program with no output 20:50:38 yeah yeah 20:50:38 P... = print this 20:50:46 language has both input and output of any byte, but, right :) 20:51:27 Vorpal: anyway, this code path appears for every arithmetic op 20:51:33 Vorpal: and fixnums are overwhelmingly the common case 20:51:41 elliott, I see 20:52:05 elliott, not sure if you seen the df thread about how to best set up a mermaid farm? Because their bones are valuable when crafting things of them. 20:52:13 only in dwarf fortress! 20:52:30 Vorpal: no, i don't read that forum 20:52:49 elliott, sometimes it can be fun, or horrible: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25967.0 20:52:54 Vorpal: i could do test cases, but so far there are no language implementations on top of this host 20:53:09 elliott, is it for that language for PH's game? 20:53:31 Vorpal: no 20:53:34 Vorpal: it's Fythe 20:53:44 elliott, mhm, which one is that? 20:53:48 anyway, strictly, gcc doesn't generate the implementations 20:53:53 it generates a partial implementation 20:53:57 which is then cleaned up with a perl script 20:54:02 and a patch is kept to it 20:54:05 elliott, depends on a specific gcc version then? 20:54:06 to fill in things like function prologuee 20:54:10 /epilogue 20:54:12 *prologue 20:54:16 and "jump to here if not overflow" 20:54:44 Vorpal: Fythe is Gregor's general-purpose language implementation VM/parser system 20:54:57 the basis of (the as of yet unimplemented) Plof 4 20:55:05 I don't think it depends on a specific gcc version 20:55:09 most of the patches are pretty general 20:55:27 probably the overflow stuff will have to be redone, but the prologue/epilogue things should be all right 20:55:31 since they're just replacing a string :) 20:55:38 ah 20:56:07 elliott, why are you doing evil mangler sort of stuff instead of using llvm or something 20:56:35 Vorpal: because LLVM doesn't fit Plof's needs? 20:56:46 elliott, in what ways= 20:56:48 s/=/?/ 20:56:50 Fythe is suited for dynamic languages, as well as static onse 20:56:51 *ones 20:56:58 and has a built-in extensible packrat parser engine 20:57:02 hm 20:57:04 which forms the basis of Plof's language extension features 20:57:07 and indeed Plof's implementation itself 20:57:15 you can implement a language in Fythe without writing any C code, basically 20:57:32 Vorpal: the evil mangler stuff is Gregor's idea, it's just how the opcode impls are generated 20:57:45 you could hand-code them if you wanted, but if that route was taken, there probably wouldn't already be an arm backend :P 20:58:04 hah 20:58:13 Vorpal: also, it has an optimisation engine type of thing built in 20:58:19 or, really, arbitrary numbers of passes 20:58:30 and all this is done at runtime 20:58:53 all I'm doing is changing the integer implementation to use bignums on overflow and the like 20:59:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:00:24 hmm, I wonder if I could free up a register by adding the two booleans 21:00:27 and conditioning on that 21:00:34 oh wait, that wouldn't let me distinguish right only vs. left only bignum 21:00:55 mangle mangle twist and tangle 21:02:22 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:03:11 -!- elliott has joined. 21:03:18 heyy, gcc has AWESOME builtins 21:03:47 gc spurn and pointer dangle 21:04:01 gah 21:04:05 the builtin that looks cool isn't in 4.4 21:04:58 specifically __builtin_unreachable 21:05:06 i think that would reduce the mangling a little bit 21:05:17 hm the null pointer derefs should become __builtin_trap() instead maybe 21:08:44 Vorpal: fun thing the mangler has to do: rename all labels 21:09:00 otherwise gcc generates them terribly (seemingly pseudo-randomly) 21:09:01 and the diff breaks 21:11:35 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]). 21:14:47 hello sweethearts 21:17:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:20:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:36:13 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:36:48 -!- yiyus has joined. 21:39:41 Vorpal: http://codu.org/tmp/reverb-2011-04-11.tar <-- this tar includes no reverb, simple reverb, pan+reverb, and my full room reverb system. 21:40:03 ah 21:40:15 will check tomorrow, have to sleep now. Will wget it 21:40:18 Simple reverb and full room reverb are actually the most similar, but simple reverb gives no sense of space, whereas pan+reverb gives a distorted, actually kind of disturbing sense of space. 21:41:54 Pork. 21:42:52 this sentence no reverb 21:44:01 ,mnbgyuio 21:45:30 * oerjan wonders how you would converse if you could only use neighboring keys consecutively 21:45:40 badly, i assume 21:47:44 redsassertfreesaws 21:48:11 hm, I just had two ideas for a programming language 21:48:18 these aren't actually esoteric ideas 21:48:22 but ones that will make programmers hate me! 21:49:08 1) parentheses and other similar things aren't required to be closed or opened, in fact, they are just operators (this will annoy people 21:49:22 2) white-space affects precedence 21:49:36 the latter has been done 21:49:49 oh, cool 21:50:01 i don't quite recall where 21:50:13 oh, would've been nice to look up 21:50:27 it was discussed here, anyway 21:50:34 * oerjan wonders how you would converse if you could only use neighboring keys consecutively 21:51:05 hyujk, mjuuik, ,li 21:51:07 i give up 21:51:29 Zwaarddijk: even merd did the latter :) 21:51:30 in one channel I'm on 21:51:32 Hmm... Esolang where the program is a general digraph. :-) 21:51:34 merd.sf.net 21:51:46 we once communicated in three-letter abbreviations 21:51:48 elliott: the left side seemed to have more promise. although i ignored the return key... 21:51:49 and such 21:51:58 the idea was to look sort of pseudo-assemblerlike 21:52:44 werdfeedsaweddedsasser 21:52:45 Zwaarddijk: tla huh 21:53:03 oerjan: of course we did it all-caps 21:53:13 elliott: fe? 21:53:19 Bonus points for not associating any data with vertices or edges and having any digraph be valid program. 21:53:26 oerjan: werd-feeds-a-wedded-sasser 21:53:38 i had no o, dammit 21:53:42 elliott: no i mean f does not touch e 21:53:44 Ilari: graphica? 21:53:49 oerjan: sure it does, diagonally 21:53:57 gimme a break :D 21:54:16 well if your keyboard is like a chessboard pattern, maybe 21:54:38 fredsaswedded... bah 21:54:41 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:56:31 Of course, that would involve digraph homomorphism problem. 21:57:29 And also likely vertex equivalence. 21:58:54 is that NP-complete? 21:59:53 Graph homomorphism isn't known to be in P nor in NPC. Don't know if digraphs change things. 22:00:10 Don't know about vertex equivalence. 22:00:20 who's vertex eq 22:00:36 i think you mean isomorphism for the "not known"? 22:00:57 or hm 22:00:58 graph homosexuality 22:01:31 Yeah, isomorphic. 22:01:49 oerjan: erm, homomorphism has it as a subcase 22:02:02 when you have the same amount of edges and vertices 22:02:15 oh 22:02:23 but it might be known to be np-complete 22:02:26 i just don't know it 22:02:35 yes, homomorphism is NPC 22:02:45 subgraph is easily seen to be np-complete so prolly okay 22:03:09 -!- iamcal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:03:15 -!- iamcal has joined. 22:03:21 what's the proof? 22:03:31 i just saw it claimed on wp 22:03:36 oh okay 22:03:48 well easy to believe, maybe i'll think about it later 22:03:50 however actually isomorphism is _not_ a subcase of homomorphism 22:03:56 at least not obviously 22:04:05 because the map is not required to be injective 22:04:22 " when you have the same amount of edges and vertices"? 22:04:29 (for homomorphism) 22:04:34 doesn't help 22:04:45 huh. 22:04:58 maybe i don't know what a function is then 22:05:17 e.g. you have a homomorphism from C4 to itself which collapses two opposing vertices 22:05:36 err, that's not surjective? 22:05:51 homomorphisms are not required to be surjective either 22:05:59 okay so i guess the problem is me assuming it's assumed surjective 22:06:12 because that makes more sense 22:06:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:07:12 -!- Zuu has joined. 22:07:39 Subgraph isomorphism is NP-Complete. But is isomorphism with full graphs? 22:07:41 or, alternatively, it is my opinion that the epimorphism problem is more natural than the homomorphism problem 22:07:52 Ilari: that's the unknown thing 22:07:54 Ilari: that is the unknown question 22:08:50 oerjan: so, for the homomorphism problem, i don't really see how it can be NPC, since you can just map everything to a single vertex? 22:09:12 or hmm 22:09:18 oklopol: no, you cannot map vertices that have edges between them to the same 22:09:29 oh right yeah 22:09:39 then it should work 22:09:59 i think maybe it suffices to consider the "from" graph being complete, for which homomorphism and subgraph isomorphism become the same, and also the same as the maximal clique problem? 22:10:30 (the same because injectivity is then automatic) 22:11:08 Vertex equivalence is equivalence relation: Vertex is equivalent to itself, it is symmetric relation and if x is equivalent to y, and y is equivalent to z, then x is equivalent to z. 22:11:10 which one's the from graph 22:11:30 HOLY MOTHER OF GOD. 22:11:44 Ilari: thank you for this 22:11:45 Anyway, all C_n and K_n graphs have all vertices equivaent. K_n,m graphs (biparite) have two sets of equivalent vertices. 22:12:09 what 22:12:41 Ilari: did god give you The Equivalence Relation? 22:12:46 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:13:26 "from" graph as in the one from which you try to find stuff? that can't be complete 22:13:29 -!- Zuu has joined. 22:13:45 oklopol: "from" graph as the domain of the homomorphism function 22:14:31 so homomorphism from K_n to some graph G actually marks a K_n in G 22:14:35 the map goes from the set of vertices of one graph to the set of vertices of another 22:14:46 yes 22:14:47 then we 22:14:51 're done 22:14:55 but let me try to see why. 22:15:15 well as i said it's the maximal clique problem, no? 22:15:24 well yes 22:15:28 i guess we can just take that as a given 22:15:37 that that's NPC 22:15:46 because everyone knows that 22:15:56 * oklopol continues thinking anyway 22:17:09 "Subgraph isomorphism is a generalization of both the maximum clique problem and the problem of testing whether a graph contains a Hamiltonian cycle, and is therefore NP-complete." 22:17:30 sure 22:17:54 the hamiltonian thing doesn't look like it would transfer to homomorphisms though 22:18:11 (cycles can easily have vertices identified) 22:19:00 well you could add new vertices inside the edges to make them directed and unique for the beginning vertex? 22:19:09 well 22:19:12 that doesn't work at all 22:19:17 but otherwise? 22:19:27 * oklopol considers sleeping 22:20:40 the clique problem was one of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems 22:21:33 ur mom is a np 22:24:27 Ah, of course vertex equivalence and graph isomorphism are equally hard. :-) 22:24:47 what's vertex equivalence? 22:25:26 Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems#Iso-_and_other_morphisms lists somthing called digraph D-morphism, but the link leads nowhere 22:26:42 *something 22:27:24 * oerjan guesses that vertex equivalence means there's an isomorphism of the graph to itself mapping one vertex to the other 22:28:04 then i don't see the equally hard claim 22:28:50 then vertex eq can be reduced to graph isomorphism by marking the vertex with some weird thingie i think 22:29:15 probably 22:29:16 but the other direction i don't see in the vaguest 22:29:35 oh! 22:30:01 ! 22:30:26 make a graph that is the disjoint union of the two, and see if there is a vertex equivalence between vertices from different original graphs 22:30:33 ah 22:30:37 good one 22:30:50 so yeah of course 22:31:21 but i think i solved maximum clique 22:31:43 proving it NP-complete? 22:31:50 yes 22:32:17 take 3sat, and for each (x v y v z) you take three vertices which are not connected, then connect every pair x, y everywhere else, unless x = not y 22:32:28 hm i vaguely recall thinking about that one some months ago 22:32:30 and require one vertex for all 22:32:43 so find K_n where n is the number of clauses 22:33:14 must choose exactly one from all, and it's then K_n unless you made a contradicting choice in two clauses 22:33:42 hm 22:33:49 and yes, i know that was very unclear 22:34:46 but let's see if i know what i mean 22:35:59 if you find some K_n, then you chose one from each clause, so you can just set those to true, then it doesn't matter what you do with other vars, because everything's satisfied 22:36:18 and you can set those to true because there can't be both x and not x chosen from two clauses 22:36:42 if you can satisfy, then just choose one from each clause, you won't get x and not x because, well, x has some value 22:37:05 * oklopol has never felt this formally challenged 22:37:28 are u grokking meh :( 22:38:50 i vaguely recall how i did it, and i think you have a flaw there. you need to also have a vertex for each variable x and each not x, to ensure all settings are globally consistent 22:39:15 but otherwise, that's the idea 22:39:27 i don't think you need a vertex for each variable 22:39:52 yes you do, because you can have a set of clauses that restrict a variable without doing so "locally" 22:40:14 but a K_n marks a true variable in every clause 22:40:29 hm maybe 22:40:35 so you get a satisfying valuation 22:40:37 and conversely 22:40:54 but yeah this might not be the most illustrative way, i just didn't see how it's done with variable vertices 22:41:17 so you choose the correct value of each variable into the K_n, as vertices? 22:41:19 then what? 22:41:43 then you choose that value also in those thingies i contructed i guess 22:41:54 and stuff happens 22:42:06 well anyhow it's kinda obvious, i should go to sleep 22:46:01 hm i think i understand how your method works now 22:46:22 thank god 22:46:39 because i'm like should i try to actually do it or not 22:46:42 but now i can like not 22:46:46 heh 22:47:13 i slept 14 hours last night but for some reason i can't seem to do it now 22:47:59 have you seen the proof for hamiltonian path np-complete? 22:48:37 i'm actually going to read that tomorrow, it's interesting how often the stuff i do at random at uni pops up here 22:48:43 i cannot recall that 22:48:48 usually complexity theory but other stuff too i think 22:48:57 (i don't usually do ct) 22:49:04 (i mean, read ct) 22:49:09 (i don't *do* ct) 22:49:12 (no one does ct) 22:49:43 well *directed* hamiltonian is easy 22:49:48 i'd assume the people over at godel's letter do... 22:50:21 the karp 21 page claimed undirected hamiltonian was proved by reducing it to directed 22:50:30 you have a chain from right to left and left to right for each variable, and put these under each other, have the hamiltonian cycle go through each, in one of the two directions 22:50:36 then, for each clause 22:50:46 you have a vertex, and you can visit it iff you're going in the right direction 22:51:02 in one of its variables 22:51:38 that one is clear when you draw a picture, but i doubt it's gettable from that :D 22:54:34 so basically you have a start vertex up high, and two paths down from it, then between those paths, between their nth vertices, you have paths in both directions, one representing "nth variable true", one representing "nth variable false". you also have edges for changing path from left side to right as you go down 22:55:26 then, somewhere in the middle of say x=false path, you have one of the edges optionally going through a vertex that signifies that a certain clause disjuncting (not x) is true 22:55:49 that should be pretty much it 22:56:36 * oerjan has brain mush again 22:56:49 brain mushmshmsuhmsuhsmhshmsuhmsuhmsmhshsmhsmhsmhsmhsmhmshmshmshmsmhsmhsmhsmhsnhsmhsmh 22:57:08 i'll be happy to clarify if you feel like it 22:57:24 but how the fuck do you reduce directed to undirected.... 22:57:41 wait what 22:57:51 undirected reduced to directed? why would you do that :D 22:58:13 just have edges both ways.. 22:58:14 er i guess the other way 22:58:29 okay 22:59:33 i meant "reduced" as reducing NP-completeness of one to the NP-completeness of the other, which is of course the exact opposite direction of the actual problem reduction 22:59:33 yeah so about the undirected case: i have no idea 22:59:58 yeah 23:00:06 apology accepted 23:00:09 everyone makes mistakes 23:00:22 LET'S NOT OVERDO THIS 23:00:22 especially the ones that are stuppid 23:00:23 hahahaha 23:00:26 hhahahahaahaa 23:00:57 i have to wake up in 4 hours if i want to be at uni before the cleaning ppl :( 23:01:15 the girl that cleans our office is the cutest little thingie 23:02:17 also that was a completely orthogonal note 23:02:26 i'm not even going to the office 23:03:23 anyhow let's see how this goes after proving these mindnumbing trivialities -> 23:10:51 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:11:04 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 23:11:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:29:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:31:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:59 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:34:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:34:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Changing host). 23:34:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:35:55 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:48:44 Bayesians caught smuggling 23:48:44 priors into Rotterdam harbor 23:48:44 Rogier A. Kievit 23:48:44 Amsterdam, 2-2-2011. A group of 23:48:46 international Bayesians was arrested today in 23:48:48 the Rotterdam harbor. According to Dutch 23:48:50 customs, they were attempting to smuggle over 23:48:52 1.5 million priors into the country, hidden 23:48:54 between electronic equipment. The arrest 23:48:56 represents the largest capture of priors in history. 23:48:58 ‘This is our biggest catch yet. Uniform priors, Gaussian priors, Dirichlet priors, even 23:49:00 informative priors, it’s all here,” says customs officers Benjamin Roosken, 23:49:02 responsible for the arrest. “There are priors for memory experiments, intelligence 23:49:04 tests, flanker tasks, meta-analyses, political preference, everything! God only knows 23:49:06 what would have happened if this had gotten through. We’re pretty lucky to catch 23:49:08 them too. The chance of being in the right place, given the right time, if you take into 23:49:10 account the number of arrests, divided by the number of successful arrests every year, 23:49:14 it’s pretty slim. We’re very glad indeed. ” 23:49:16 ugh, that pasted terribly 23:50:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:56:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:59:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 2011-04-12: 00:02:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:03:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:05:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:11:04 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:14:55 -!- augur has joined. 00:18:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:27:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:31:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:49:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:51:04 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:51:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:58:57 -!- pumpkin has joined. 01:02:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:09:37 Wow, 269 page RFC. 01:09:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:09:49 (3261) 01:11:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:28:46 -!- augur has joined. 01:29:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:31:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:40:45 Hmm... Huston estimate for APNIC depletion is Thursday 21st April (my own current estimate is Monday 18th April). Of course, it can deplete at any day nwo. 01:40:48 *now 02:16:04 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:16:47 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 02:22:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:23:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:41:47 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:42:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:43:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:53:41 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:02:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:03:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:08:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:08:56 -!- lament has joined. 03:11:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:14:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:14:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 03:14:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:15:14 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()Nb 03:15:17 7 03:15:26 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()()Nb 03:15:27 2 03:15:36 oops 03:15:41 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()Nb 03:15:42 9 03:15:46 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()Nb 03:15:47 1 03:16:47 oerjan: omg more /// stuff! 03:16:49 i am just reading this log 03:16:52 where you do /// stuff 03:16:53 it makes me happy 03:17:11 hey, do for /// what you did for UL :trollface: 03:17:17 is it still tc without \?! 03:17:31 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()()Nb 03:17:34 11 03:17:38 funny guy 03:17:43 what is this anyway 03:18:02 printing the number of ()'s in decimal 03:18:20 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()Nb 03:18:22 23 03:18:35 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()Nb 03:18:36 1 03:18:39 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/NaNb 03:18:40 0 03:18:49 well that seems to work 03:19:20 that's good then. 03:19:36 !slashes /()()()()()/5/()()()()() 03:19:38 5 03:19:40 oerjan: mine's shorter. 03:19:50 and _so_ general 03:19:58 it prints the number of ()s, what more do you want 03:21:47 oh man, they've made a movie out of atlas shrugged 03:21:53 i can barely contain my excitement!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 03:21:57 111 03:22:00 is it 2834927349872398789 hours long 03:22:03 ELEVEN 03:22:15 lament: close, 28349273498723987890 03:22:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:22:17 you forgot a 0 03:22:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM 03:22:37 the motion is weird, all super-smooth 03:23:06 maybe they filmed it in TV movie fps ;D 03:24:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:27:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:30:02 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/()\//Na()()()NbN0 03:30:05 ()()()() 03:30:11 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/()\//Na()()()()()NbN0 03:30:12 ()()()()()() 03:30:18 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/()\//NaNbN0 03:30:19 () 03:30:24 oerjan: your code approaches saltiness 03:30:33 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//Na()()()NbN0 03:30:34 ()() 03:30:38 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//Na()()()()()NbN0 03:30:39 ()()()() 03:30:43 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//Na()NbN0 03:30:49 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//NaNbN0 03:31:05 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//NaNbN0hm 03:31:06 hm 03:31:24 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nc()\/N1Nc\/\/Nc\/\/\/N0\/NcN1\//Na()()()NbN0 03:31:25 ()()()()()()()()() 03:31:26 !slashes 03:31:34 !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nc()\/N1Nc\/\/Nc\/\/\/N0\/NcN1\//Na()()()()NbN0 03:31:35 ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() 03:31:49 lol @ hm 03:31:56 !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/\//Na()()()NbN0 03:31:57 ()()() 03:32:16 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useless ;; can we declare war on the state of TehZ? 03:32:28 elliott: i just needed to append something to check that it was properly empty and not a crash 03:35:54 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:37:30 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:37:37 -!- elliott has joined. 03:39:00 15:26:21 Now for an important question: Given only the characters / and \, what should the BCT interpreter output? 03:39:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:39:02 kittens 03:39:23 -!- augur has joined. 03:43:40 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:43:47 -!- elliott has joined. 03:44:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:45:03 that was not, alas, an option. 03:48:25 oerjan: :( 03:48:29 but i like kittens? 03:49:42 yes but outputting kittens with just / and \ is rather difficult 03:50:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:50:16 -!- augur has joined. 03:51:57 /\ /\ 03:51:57 / \ 03:51:57 | \/ \/ | 03:51:57 \ / 03:52:00 \/\/\/\// 03:52:02 / \ 03:52:04 / \ /\ 03:52:06 \_________|\/ 03:52:08 oerjan: any questions? 03:52:10 actually that's more like cthulhu 03:52:25 and by that i mean, neither space nor newline is available. 03:52:34 oh, i forgot about that.:D 03:52:37 *that. :D 03:52:37 kitthulhu 03:52:52 http://www.nyder.com/cthulhu/graphics/hello_cthulhu2.gif 03:53:38 everyone's favorite madness-inducing plush monster 03:54:38 oerjan it's almost 6 am what on earth are you doing up 03:58:50 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:58:57 -!- elliott has joined. 03:58:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:59:01 WELL OERJAN? 04:03:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:07:05 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:12:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:15:15 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:15:58 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 04:17:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:22:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:33:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:34:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:37:29 -!- wareya has left. 04:38:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:15:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:16:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:20:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:20:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:36:45 this is worse than auto-tuning his voice 05:36:45 * oerjan now has the vague image of adjusting the visuals to be pornographic, while keeping the soundtrack as usual 05:36:49 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:36:49 autotune for video? 05:40:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:45:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:55:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:55:35 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:55:35 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:06:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:11:02 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:15:29 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:15:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:16:10 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 06:38:28 "In the PAQ8HP series, the dictionary is organized by grouping syntactically and semantically related words together. This allows models to use just the most significant bits of the dictionary codes as context." 06:38:40 i think this means we could start doing lossy text compression 06:39:00 start by losing exact words...you might get back a synonym instead 06:39:35 then losing grammatical constructs and turns of phrase, where you might get back a different, but also grammatically-correct, and semantically equivalent phrase 07:06:50 quintopia, what is the PAQ8HP? 07:12:32 -!- Ilari has joined. 07:16:37 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 07:22:45 oerjan it's almost 6 am what on earth are you doing up <--- what were *you* doing up? 07:37:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:43:10 -!- pentesilea has joined. 07:52:46 -!- pentesilea has quit. 07:55:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:59:25 -!- augur has joined. 08:15:34 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:16:21 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 08:16:28 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:16:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:19:32 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:20:05 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:23:21 -!- variable has joined. 08:42:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:42:13 http://infinigons.blogspot.com/2011/01/is-programming-new-math.html 08:42:30 I'm just going to leave this here. 08:43:57 Hmm, it actually seems saner than the title makes out. 08:45:17 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:48:58 -!- comex has joined. 09:06:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:21:41 -!- cheater99 has joined. 09:23:05 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:24:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:47:54 -!- hiato has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:51:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:51:27 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:53:01 -!- hiato has joined. 10:02:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 10:16:29 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:16:50 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 10:28:03 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:34:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:42:07 -!- asiekierka[ds] has joined. 11:42:08 hi 11:50:21 -!- asiekierka[ds] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:17:01 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:17:26 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 12:24:12 I Just heard a rumour that APNIC has allocated 90%+ of their free address pool. Whoah. The final statistics file comes in about 3 hours. 12:39:38 It had exact numbers too. And the sum of those numbers does check against remaining IP count I got yesterday. 12:40:51 There are quite a few Twitter postings saying APNIC has "~525.000" addresses left now before the last /8. 12:55:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:57:07 Quite close to number I heard (525 056, which is multiple of /24). 13:06:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:06:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 13:06:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:09:30 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:16:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:35:58 Reportedly ~4M of those are temporary allocations (for debogon), but they won't be released before everything but final /8 runs out. 13:39:32 -!- sftp has joined. 13:57:27 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:03:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:04:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:15:31 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:16:10 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 14:16:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:50:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:54:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:05:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:15:40 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:22:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:25:04 APNIC down 0.38 (525056 / 0.03 remain): 2x2k+2x1k+256+2x/32 to Australia, 512k+256k+64k+6x32k+13x16k+60x8k+68x4k+96x2k to China, 1k to Guam, 256 to Hong Kong, 4M(!!!)+1k to Indonesia, 2k to India, 2x16k+4k to Japan, 1k to South Korea, /32 to Pakistan, 256+/48 to Singapore. 15:25:30 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:25:54 Predicted depletion date: Tomorrow. 15:26:05 down 0.38 to 0.03? wow. 15:31:54 Also looks like somebody's allocation got really fragmented. I count 2M addresses in 242(!) fragments. 15:33:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:33:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:33:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:41:48 -!- elliott has joined. 15:42:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:45:06 07:22:45: oerjan it's almost 6 am what on earth are you doing up <--- what were *you* doing up? 15:45:08 it was only almost 5 am 15:45:42 15:25:54: Predicted depletion date: Tomorrow. 15:45:44 nice. 15:47:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:00:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:00:32 it was only almost 5 am <-- ah okay. Carry on then 16:01:54 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:04:37 -!- cheater has joined. 16:05:15 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:05:16 Ilari http://www.hostblogger.de/blog/archives/5199-Video-We-are-running-out-of-ip-addresses.html 16:05:28 THAT IS SO LAST HOUR 16:05:34 no u 16:05:42 mr ørjan. 16:06:10 [18:05] * ørjan :Erroneous Nickname 16:06:26 funny thing that. 16:07:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 16:08:54 Oh, I have seen that video before. 16:09:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:09:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 16:09:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:09:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:10:38 Ilari: :) 16:14:32 -!- lament has joined. 16:16:22 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:16:54 Okay, that 4M block will likely be back to allocation soon, but not before APNIC has already run out (but that block will be gone really rapidly when it is back). 16:16:57 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 16:21:50 APNIC IPv6 pool: 1 039 095 /32s remaining. 16:23:46 514 808 /32s to go before reaching the half-block threshold. 16:28:17 Compare with all APNIC IPv6 allocations/assignements being a total of 27 893 /32s. 16:29:16 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:32:10 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:32:31 APNIC needs to expand the allocations some 18.4-fold to reach the half-block limit. 16:34:35 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:34:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host). 16:34:39 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:44:14 -!- wareya has joined. 17:00:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:08:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:11:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:11:33 i find it a pretty horrible thought that psychopaths aren't nice people because they don't have feelings that force them to be that way 17:11:49 i hope it's just tv that has given me the impression 17:12:40 personally i find that i'm amoral only when not thinking clearly 17:12:57 * elliott is vaguely suspicious of oklopol's definition of moral 17:13:19 but err, are you suggesting sociopaths are just constantly confused :D 17:13:51 no, on the contrary, it is my understanding that they are automatically supposed to be amoral because they don't have a conscience 17:14:12 i don't have really have a conscience either afaik 17:14:30 maybe i just never did anything wrong 17:14:41 * elliott attempts to assess the risk to humanity oklopol poses 17:15:07 you're the one who once said your life is more valuable than anything in the world 17:15:40 i wouldn't let more than a few people i know die before myself; although probably thousands of people i don't know 17:16:15 did i say that? i don't remember saying that. 17:16:16 depends on the distance too 17:16:31 i've said that humans are prone to valuing themselves over pretty much everything else. 17:16:32 i may have misunderstood 17:16:36 which is certainly true 17:16:37 it was part of that one torture talk 17:17:53 hey, looks like my counting of the sequences were off 17:17:55 there's actually 702 posts 17:18:10 -!- monqy has joined. 17:18:24 monqy: hi 17:20:34 hi 17:21:39 :) 17:24:03 monqy: STATE YOUR BUSINESS or i guess you can idle too. 17:25:56 my business is usually idling 17:26:47 hasn't monqy been here before PRETTY SURE THEY HAVE 17:26:54 they might be trying to invade :/ 17:27:17 yesterday, at least. maybe the day before 17:27:21 what, i can't be polite and welcoming to people who have been here before? 17:27:43 elliott is quite a ruin ur fun pants 17:27:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:28:08 monqy: you on the wiki? 17:28:15 not yet 17:28:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:28:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:28:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:30:14 what if there was a programming language based on stuff? 17:30:30 and then i was thinking, there could be things too 17:30:45 and what's the coolest is that it's completely based on stuff and things 17:30:49 but still it's tc 17:30:54 call it python 17:31:05 :O 17:31:09 oh fuck 17:31:22 this guy asks me today 17:31:27 does python have matrices in some lib 17:31:30 :D 17:31:33 numpy 17:31:37 "no they forgot" 17:31:38 :P 17:31:40 lol 17:32:01 which reminds me, i need to write a few programs in ml 17:32:05 for this course 17:32:09 they're really hard listen 17:32:24 you need to write this func that takes two lists of the same length, and then it like zips them 17:32:40 WOOOOW 17:32:48 recursively of course so that you learn to think like a person who writes recursive functions for a living 17:33:01 oklopol: dude, that's, like, a catamorphism. 17:33:12 whoaaaaa 17:33:59 I'd write recursive functions for a living if someone paid me to write recursive functions 17:34:02 isms are bad. 17:34:37 monqy: so is your name pronounced like paraguay or like fish 17:35:45 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:36:20 elliott: does is this look a good one: fun zip a,b and c,d = c:: d+a zip 17:36:24 i'm gonna submit that 17:36:32 yes. 17:36:39 oklopol: i made it better 17:36:43 okay 17:36:44 funnest funfest zip a,b and c,d = c:: d+a zip 17:36:46 yw 17:36:47 i have recursion call 17:36:57 and then i have that cut a list in a pices 17:37:11 you need knife.ml to cut thing 17:37:13 sz 17:37:16 i'm really sleep 17:37:17 *tuhingsz 17:37:26 `addquote i'm really sleep 17:37:30 360) i'm really sleep 17:37:30 i can never seem to get a good night's oklopol 17:37:38 :o 17:37:44 stop hitting on me silyl :D 17:37:47 I'm not quite sure how monqy is pronounced, myself. I usually pronounce it like mɒnki, but I might be wrong 17:37:49 *silly 17:38:00 monqy: is it your actual first name? 17:38:15 no; that would be a silly first name 17:38:28 * Gregor sobs quietly at the first name he's hidden for so many years. 17:38:59 Gregor: it's sad that your name is one of your things 17:39:22 no matter how awesome it is 17:39:23 ... that ... was a sentence. 17:39:32 xD 17:39:54 thing = memorable thing about a thing 17:40:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:40:07 you know, a thing 17:40:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:40:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:40:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:40:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:40:15 Phantom_Hoover! 17:40:21 Indeed! 17:40:27 oklopol: Unlike okloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklo 17:40:41 my nick is kind of one of my things i suppose 17:40:51 people like talking about it for some reason 17:41:04 but you have told us that Gregor is your actual name like 50 times 17:41:31 if it's not 17:41:34 that would be pretty cool 17:41:38 X-D 17:41:49 So my aunt says she saw someone walking around Venice who I swear is the Slender Man except he had a pink shirt on which kind of spoils the image. 17:41:55 I dont't think I've told you fifty times, probably only when relevant and otherwise implied :P 17:42:03 Phantom_Hoover: PINK SHIRTS SPOIL NOTHING 17:42:19 THEY SPOIL MENACINGNESS 17:42:29 Also he had a woman walking with him. 17:42:32 Gregor: well at least 4, you pretty much mention it every time people talk about not using their name on them nets 17:42:41 4 is a lot, i've only seen like 100000 of your lines 17:43:02 (i like reading the same ones many times, i just grep Gregor and go nuts) 17:43:20 Well, I am only one of two people who regularly talks here that uses his real name ... 17:43:45 The other being pooppy, his real name is in fact Pooppy (although he translated it into Latin on IRC) 17:43:52 asiekierka, ais 17:43:55 elliott 17:44:06 oklopol yes? 17:44:25 asiekierka: just saying your name is actually asiekierka 17:44:28 it's not! 17:44:30 my real name is adrian 17:44:35 yeah right 17:44:37 yes it is 17:44:39 haha 17:44:41 asiekierka is short for adrian siekierka 17:44:43 listen to this guy 17:44:43 what did you think 17:44:47 So my aunt says she saw someone walking around Venice who I swear is the Slender Man except he had a pink shirt on which kind of spoils the image. 17:44:50 did you think im asie kierka or something 17:44:52 it's "is Slenderman" u illiterate fuk 17:45:01 myth busted. anything else? 17:45:03 asiekierka: ais isn't ais's actual name either, but based on it 17:45:09 ok i guess the the is acceptable 17:45:09 also aren't you testy 17:45:16 testy? 17:45:19 Well, I am only one of two people who regularly talks here that uses his real name ... 17:45:25 I'm actually subhuman, so I'm not offended. 17:45:36 elliott: We all know your real name is Alice. 17:45:37 elliott what are you 17:45:44 *Alise 17:45:46 TRUE STORY 17:45:47 Gregor how do you know it's not Parry 17:45:49 or something 17:45:56 elliott: No, because if it's Alise then that would mean you have used your real name ;) 17:46:05 o snap 17:46:07 It's actually Estoppel. 17:46:14 My name is Estoppel Verquire St.XII 17:46:15 estoppel :DDDDDDDDDDD 17:46:27 those were THE times 17:46:27 [18:44] it's "is Slenderman" u illiterate fuk 17:46:30 Saint thirteen??? 17:46:35 Gregor: YES 17:47:06 Well I'm sorry but my amygdala makes my life hell if I read about it so I'm not exactly well-versed. 17:47:36 Your mom is an amygdala. 17:48:30 asiekierka: sorry typoed, meant to say tasty 17:51:09 cheese is so good 17:53:30 oklopol: Why don't you go fuck a fruit basket. 17:53:32 elliott: And you're a slut. 17:53:37 !!! 17:53:38 Indeed. 17:53:48 Gregor: ( 17:53:58 that is the saddest smiley 17:54:07 no eyes 17:54:11 OH GOD now for years the entire conversation will be in an unmatched paren D-8 17:54:13 just pure 100% sadness 17:54:22 ) 17:54:28 yay 17:54:29 oklopol: i thought the : after Gregor was the eyes 17:54:29 *whew* 17:54:30 happy times 17:54:35 the space made it ten times as sad 17:54:39 "Gregor" is the hat. 17:54:51 He's wearing my name as a hat, and sad that he doesn't have a nose. 17:54:56 Gregor: i get it, because you love hats 17:55:02 you are the hat 17:55:10 One day, "Gregor" will be a synonym for "hat" 17:55:16 yes 17:55:22 "It's raining, grab your Gregor" no wait, maybe I don't want this ... 17:55:24 and then you will have a choosemygregor site 17:55:39 WELL ANYWAY GUYS I HAVE TO FOOD AND I DON'T TRUST MY FAMILY WITH THIS LAPTOP UNATTENDED 17:55:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:56:11 trust is a powerful thing 17:56:11 I FORGOT TO ASK HIM SOMETHING 17:56:21 ask him later? 17:56:25 yeah elliott 17:58:02 sheesh what a silly-doodle, won't ask later just keeps on complaining 18:04:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:44 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:18:00 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 18:22:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:23:24 What are the haps my friends 18:24:12 Hapssy 18:24:15 *Happsy 18:24:23 well you know those young athletes that are always missing their fucking only chance in life to play in front of talent scouts 18:24:40 that annoys me even more than the stereotypical psychopaths 18:28:34 psychopaths would probably know how to reach their goals without annoying you 18:29:27 i'm never annoyed by people 18:29:35 only tv shows and machines 18:30:02 oh, you're talking about athletes and psychopaths in tv shows? 18:30:06 yes 18:30:49 -!- calamari has joined. 18:31:34 especially machines 18:31:40 i fucking hate computers 18:39:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:40:24 -!- oklopol has quit. 18:44:29 Vorpal: do you know if Alexia Massalin has done any kernel/OS work since Synthesis? Wikipedia has nuthin' 18:58:15 FOOD AGAIN 18:58:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 18:58:39 HOW MUCH DO YOU EAT 18:59:09 -!- cheater has left ("Leaving"). 18:59:15 -!- cheater has joined. 19:15:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:16:07 -!- augur has joined. 19:16:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:16:44 yesterday i acquired an original distribution of hypercard :T 19:17:02 how ... difficult? 19:17:29 i walked up to a table that happened to be giving it away, and i took it 19:18:52 :.,.+1441:28 19:19:46 indeed 19:19:50 manuals and all 19:22:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:28:32 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:30:07 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 19:31:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:31:52 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 19:38:13 -!- augur has joined. 19:41:38 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:42:32 my crt decided to start randomly shrinking, widening and twisting the screen so had to give it a break 19:42:46 nothing's moving now 19:42:48 um 19:42:52 it was just enjoying some nice drugs 19:42:55 why are you so prejudiced 19:43:19 it's way too old for that stuff 19:44:02 drugs are for kids, grampa 19:44:12 yes 19:44:41 if my lcd was on lsd, i wouldn't mind 19:45:10 but it's not ok if your crt is on ecstasy GOD I LVOE RHYMING 19:45:35 who doesn't A LITTLE 19:49:43 `addquote elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies. 19:49:45 361) elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies. 19:54:07 -!- ais523_ has joined. 19:55:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:55:53 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:09:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:12:42 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:16:35 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:17:40 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 20:27:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:51:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:29:09 oh, esr wrote the art of unix programming? I guess there's a point to him after all 21:29:21 olsner: but that book sucks 21:29:29 olsner: he uses fetchmail as an example constantly 21:29:32 of excellent design 21:29:41 it does? what's fetchmail? :P 21:30:13 and there are people on the internet that claim it's a good book! 21:30:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:30:29 olsner: fetchmail is esr's shitty mail fetching program. 21:30:33 POP/IMAP client. 21:30:43 Approx. 0 people use it. 21:30:55 Oh, looks like he also used it constantly in The Cathedral and the Bazaar. 21:31:05 Some programmers, including Dan Bernstein, getmail creator Charles Cazabon and FreeBSD developer Terry Lambert, have criticized Fetchmail's design,[3] its number of security holes,[4] and that it was prematurely put into "maintenance mode". 21:31:05 uh oh 21:31:22 uh oh? 21:31:48 at " Approx. 0 people use it." and " Oh, looks like he also used it constantly in The Cathedral and the Bazaar." 21:31:59 err, I mean, as an example 21:34:41 eugh, stack overflow seems to be full of people who read pragmatic programmer and it somehow revolutionized their lives as programmers 21:35:39 olsner: joel spolsky + jeff atwood =/= good site with clever people 21:35:52 elliott: exactly :) 21:36:50 the worst thing is we have a couple of them at work that are like "hey, I read this book, if we implement every idea in it stuff will magically become awesome!" 21:38:08 then they get upset that nothing really happens after that except a prompt for a more thought-out argument about the benefits of said tool/process/idea/technology :) 21:39:43 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:44:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:45:20 ais523: did Wooble just ragequit _AGAIN_? 21:45:35 I don't know 21:45:54 ais523: also, _please_ get an economic proposal out 21:46:01 points-as-economy is gaining rapid acceptance, and ugh 21:48:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:50:27 you know you can write proposals yourself, right? 21:51:35 Proposal of what? 21:52:25 ais523: I'm not very good at writing rules :) 21:52:33 ais523: besides, IIRC you're the one who's done most of the work on it 21:52:36 zzo38: for a game, Agora 21:53:44 What is this game? 21:54:06 A nomic. 21:56:28 What do you have so far? 21:56:54 It's been going since 1993 :P 22:10:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:11:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:15:23 zzo38: agora is quite likely the oldest still running nomic in existence 22:15:38 indeed 22:15:42 and the second-oldest internet nomic, no? 22:15:49 unless there were minor ones in the nomicworld era 22:15:58 i don't know if there were any before nomic world 22:16:10 there weren't, I don't think 22:16:25 there could have been some email ones... NW was MUD-based 22:16:44 I know what Nomic World was dude :P 22:16:49 isn't the FRC technically older than Agora? 22:16:50 GOOD, GOOD 22:16:52 ISTR NomicWiki calling it the oldest. 22:16:55 ais523: yes 22:16:59 ais523: FRC is as much of a nomic as Canada 22:17:26 hey, its rules change sometimes 22:17:31 frc could in principle be played as a nomic but that would be out of spirit 22:17:50 ais523: so do Canada's 22:18:01 more often, even ;) 22:18:07 heh 22:18:24 elliott: I'm running a BlogNomic dynasty atm, btw 22:18:38 -!- augur has joined. 22:18:45 ah dynasty 22:18:47 only just started 22:18:51 ais523: OK; I think I have some sort of fundamental difference in ethos with BlogNomic, though, because it always seems constantly boring to me 22:18:59 it is constantly boring 22:18:59 * oerjan recalls imperial nomic. are there any of those going on still? 22:19:05 that's why it has such larger player turnover 22:19:05 ais523: well then :-P 22:19:45 trying to make BlogNomic interesting is one of the biggest challenges of nomic 22:19:53 which is quite a reason to play it, if you want a /real/ challenge 22:21:03 ais523: but I'd have to fight a lot of all the players, probably 22:21:06 which isn't fun 22:25:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:27:02 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:28:35 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 22:29:46 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:03 -!- myndzi has joined. 22:31:04 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 22:37:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:38:48 Show mercy to the green lives under your foot. 22:40:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:36 No. 22:41:32 Then go drink hydroxic acid! 22:42:22 to live dangerously, i prefer some dihydrogen monoxide 22:42:41 zzo38: Why do you keep saying "go drink hydroxic acid" 22:42:46 OK fine, prefer some dihydrogen monoxide, if that is what you prefer, please. 22:43:11 elliott: I don't know the answer to that question. 22:43:29 And if you put a question mark then I probably still won't know. 22:43:47 zzo38: Why do you keep saying "go drink hydroxic acid"? 22:43:59 I still don't know. 22:44:18 zzo38, a master of prediction 22:44:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:44:32 Or at least some kind of diction. 22:51:10 zzo38, why should I show mercy to .. crud, I don't know enough to make a semi-decent joke 22:52:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:55:56 I want to say forest lovers 22:55:58 But that sucks 22:57:49 Then say something else, or do something else, or _____________. 22:58:20 I choose the latter. 22:59:08 -!- Imk0tter has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:00:01 -!- Imk0tter has joined. 23:04:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:07:41 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:08:12 I wrote down something, some idea, it is a 4x4 game, each player has five pieces, which are cubes on top of a coin, the coin has arrow to face in four directions and can be flipped over to belong to the other side, and can be held and dropped as in shogi. If you reach the king's corner you roll the dice. You win if you capture opponent's king or if you leave opponent with no legal moves. 23:09:00 And that you can also, when capturing, turn your cube in any direction except to the other side. When non-capturing, you can turn around 90 degrees clockwise/counterclockwise by optionally. 23:10:28 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:19:09 argh 23:19:31 oerjan: why is division evil :( 23:19:45 (a+b)-b = a, even mod n, but the same doesn't hold for division 23:19:56 it's used for conquest 23:19:59 e.g. if m = n/2, then (m*2)/2 = 0 mod n 23:20:07 it is 23:20:11 distressing how long it took me to realise that 23:20:39 it's true if the divisor is relatively prime to the modulus 23:21:57 for the right definition of division modulo something 23:23:01 oerjan: all operations modulo 23:23:08 oerjan: i.e. (m*2) mod n / 2 mod n 23:23:28 well sure 23:23:37 -!- augur has joined. 23:25:07 although usually you can defer the modulus until the end if you want, the trick is that with division you need to be careful 23:25:30 when calculating m / 2, you need to choose a representative of m that is actually even 23:25:57 oerjan: i defaulted to the easier solution, i.e. saving the initial value 23:26:03 if n is odd that is of course easy 23:26:09 oerjan: (this is for restoring the pre-overflow value if a calculation overflows so that I can promote it to bignum and try again) 23:26:21 aha 23:26:32 for addition I just subtracted, but that doesn't work for multiplication, so yeah 23:26:56 have you ever had your brain simultaneously operating at the assembly level and at a bignums-and-garbage-collectors level? 23:26:59 it's truly disorienting. 23:28:38 oerjan: hm given ceil(log_2(n+1)) and m, is there an easy way to get something close to (but possibly greater than) ceil(log_2((n*m)+1))? 23:29:21 gmp appears to offer a guarantee that any bignum's log_2 will fit into an unsigned long, and you can preallocate a bignum with space for N bits 23:29:36 plus m is a (signed) long 23:29:44 so if I could preallocate well... 23:30:13 well log2(n*m) = log2(n)+log2(m) 23:30:56 if that isn't close enough, i don't know 23:31:15 right 23:31:29 actually it's probably a waste of time, I'll let gmp handle that :-P 23:35:26 oerjan: can you believe it? it's broken! wowzers! 23:35:27 oh wait 23:35:31 unless multiplication doesn't set overflow 23:35:38 that would be really shitty 23:36:26 hmm 23:36:34 how interesting, IMul doesn't actually...multiply 23:37:15 wtf. 23:37:23 Wait, they put limits on the size of a bignum? 23:40:16 WTF? 23:40:51 oh! 23:41:00 hmm 23:41:21 OK, wait, this is totally messed up, IAdd isn't doing addition either 23:41:34 unless it's somehow doing it with leaq 23:41:39 hmm, nope 23:44:32 yay 23:45:17 oerjan: what 23:45:26 behold: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/deadfish.itf 23:45:43 oerjan: have I mentioned my marriage proposal recently? 23:45:51 does it implement True Deadfish Wraparound? :-) 23:45:53 23:37:23: Wait, they put limits on the size of a bignum? 23:45:58 Sgeo: C does that from the start. 23:46:09 no, but you did mention a need for more esolang deadfish interpreters 23:46:09 Oh, right 23:46:22 elliott: but of course, that was the easy part 23:46:26 Sgeo: besides, I'd like to see you store 2^(2^32 - 1) on ANY computer! 23:46:53 hmm, well 23:46:54 (the ./N.a****************N.b./N.aN.b./ 23:46:55 it's not _that_ long I guess 23:46:58 elliott, you just did ::trollface:: 23:47:02 part) 23:47:05 but 23:47:07 it's pretty damn long 23:47:08 I have written Deadfish implementation in Gforth, and in TeX. 23:47:14 zzo38: slashes is cooler 23:47:32 this is itflabtijtslwi since it needs input 23:47:37 Of course, you mean in a representation also capable of storing integers less than that number in an equal amount of space or less 23:47:49 Ermm, less than that number but greater than 0 23:47:55 oerjan: isn't itflabtijtslwi kinda cross? 23:47:56 warning: don't try printing numbers much larger than 1000 23:47:57 Yes, can be implemented with itflabtijtslwi, or brainfuck, or INTERCAL, or whatever else you want 23:48:06 Yeah yeah, don't feel like fixing my definition to deal with negatives 23:48:12 elliott: it only adds a single GG...GG command... 23:48:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:48:19 oerjan: well that's syntactically gross. 23:48:40 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 23:48:42 oerjan: I'd make //foo/ instead be the same as /foo/\char/ 23:48:47 sine //foo/ never does anything useful ever 23:48:49 *since 23:48:58 Why is there an XKCD version of Deadfish? 23:49:04 maybe. but i went with the language which is also there 23:49:07 There is no negatives in Deadfish 23:49:10 Sgeo: heck if i know 23:49:12 *already 23:49:26 I don't know why there is a XKCD variation 23:50:15 "The language defined by the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme 23:50:15 " 23:50:16 o.O 23:50:59 Sgeo: you can thank me for that 23:51:03 why the o.O 23:51:07 perfectly factually correct 23:51:27 "Scheme" is ambiguous, there are at least six languages called Scheme 23:51:32 defined by various reports 23:51:32 Yeah, but who, besides an esolanger, says that? 23:51:43 "R5RS Scheme" is nonsense when R5RS is expanded 23:51:45 Most humans say R5RS 23:51:57 Sgeo: nobody besides an esolanger says that 23:52:11 zzo38: there ARE negatives with Deadfish 23:52:13 Most humans are esolangers. 23:52:16 oh wait, hmm, there aren't 23:52:21 but there would be, if you could get -2 somehow 23:52:24 Q.E.D. 23:52:46 23:51:45: Most humans say R5RS 23:52:52 most humans don't say it at all. but most humans just say Scheme 23:52:59 *. 23:53:00 R-ass yndrome 23:53:11 oerjan: *R ass-yndrome 23:53:30 well we _were_ discussing xkcd, almost. 23:53:34 -!- Mathnerd314_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:53:40 Almost? 23:54:05 i'm not sure that "I don't know why there is a XKCD variation" counts as discussing xkcd itself 23:55:06 * elliott makes friends with the latest esowiki spambot 23:55:10 they're just misunderstood 23:55:16 tswett: you may also like http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/deadfish.itf 23:55:34 why? 23:55:43 because he invented /// ? 23:55:46 What sort of file is that? 23:55:49 nonsense, he's not ihope127! 23:55:54 O KAY 23:56:01 tswett: It's an ittf. 23:56:06 I see. 23:56:13 oerjan: please send me that link again right now. 23:56:14 tswett: an Itflabtijtslwi source file 23:56:21 tswett: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/deadfish.itf 23:56:22 oops 23:56:25 forgot to switch to my alternate nick 23:56:28 O KAY 23:56:49 ok so tswett is not ihope127 but elliott is me. got it. 23:58:13 Even Free Geek uses Plain TeX and DVI, because I showed them how to do it, and I helped them with it. 23:58:42 But I helped them with the drive wiping script, too. 23:59:12 so, umn, zzo38, you know assembly right? 23:59:28 *umm 23:59:29 elliott: Yes, I know a bit. 23:59:36 do you know at&t syntax? 23:59:58 I don't know what AT&T syntax is. I only used MS-DOS DEBUG syntax. 2011-04-13: 00:00:17 oh. 00:00:38 so oerjan, you know assembly right :trollface: 00:01:30 i think i wrote an assembly program once back in the 1980s, maybe. it may have printed hello world or something like that. 00:01:54 argh this makes no sense :( 00:03:05 What part is no sense? 00:04:15 all of it! 00:06:29 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:07:35 -!- elliott has joined. 00:09:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:12:10 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:12:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:16:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:17:59 -!- Imk0tter has quit. 00:28:46 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:59 -!- sftp has joined. 00:34:38 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:42:59 * Sgeo would love to have a computer that obeyed Loper OS's Laws 00:43:09 What is Loper OS's Laws? 00:43:53 "Loper OS's Laws"? 00:44:06 elliott, yeah, the guy's name isn't Loper OS, I know 00:44:09 Loper OS has no laws that I am aware of. perhaps you would like to clarify, or just call me the shit-faced pedant i am 00:44:10 It's easier to remember 00:44:23 STANISLAV: hard to remember 00:44:47 -!- augur has joined. 00:44:47 zzo38, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 00:45:02 Allow me to quote visionary Terry Davis on the subject. 00:45:04 "Rules for insane computing: 00:45:04 1) User and all programs should have kernel (ring 0)access at all times. It’s your frigging machine, do what you like without supid hassles like permissions. 00:45:04 Operating Systems obeying this: 00:45:04 1) The 64-bit LoseThos Operating System 00:45:04 I’m funded from social security disability for being insane." 00:48:59 Is that just a random comment, or is there an actual critique of Stanislav's thoughts hidden in there somewhere? 00:49:09 If the latter.. seems more like a strawman 00:49:19 s/critique/attempted critique/ 00:49:34 Sgeo: That's from the author of LoseThos. 00:49:44 He's funded from social security disability for being insane. 00:50:20 Wait... Terry Davis _is_ the LoseThos guy? 00:50:25 Or just mocking him? 00:50:34 Is. 00:50:48 [[Are you that stupid? It's because whites are superior and don't need help. Why do you think it is? We all live on the same planet, don't we? Even God said, "Look at sports."]] --visionary Terry Davis 00:51:56 I'm sorry, I refuse to believe that that comment on Loper-OS is genuinely from Terry Davis 00:51:57 omg terry davis is writing an osdev manual 00:52:11 "So, you plan to do USB, do you? There are three PCI controllers, UHCI, EHCI and 00:52:11 OHCI with USB 3.0 thrown in there somewhere, too. Okay, so how many 00:52:11 manufacturers of those controllers? Maybe, they're standard." 00:52:13 Maybe is now a number. 00:52:29 Sgeo: To be fair, I don't really give a shit what you think, but it is the truth. 00:52:40 Especially since AFAIK he hadn't revealed his name before then. 00:52:49 Also he posted a gloating ridiculous comment a short while later criticising Loper OS. 00:53:20 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:54:15 "(I took the time to write a story and one ass-hole down-voted it, burying it. In case you didn't notice, most people lurk and only teenaged girls vote. I know this for a fact because I've seen page views counts and like one in ten actually votes. Teen age girls.)" 00:54:42 "smelly butt, fucken homo" --visionary Terry Davis 01:01:15 "You're a nobody. Read 1984. Metallica Nirvana, on and on. Nash. Don Quixote" --visionary Terry Davis on his being mad 01:02:31 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:02:44 About operating system with all programs ring 0 access at all times, it is something with a new computer I might make up. Security is implemented in separate hardware (also inside the computer) and can be bypassed by changing a jumper. Even if it is not bypassed, you still have direct access to most hardware. 01:02:50 Well, that dead fish file look very nice. 01:03:18 thank you :) 01:03:30 -!- wareya has joined. 01:03:45 I'm guessing that by "[read] Metallica Nirvana", he means "listen to many songs by Metallica and Nirvana and similar bands". 01:03:56 Which... is really probably pretty obvious. 01:04:29 wrong 01:04:42 http://www.trivialsolutions.biz/BornAgain.html 01:05:19 (Instructions for changing the jumper will be included in the manual, although you still need a screwdriver (no special "security" screwdriver or any rare stuff like that is needed, just a normal common one will do); this is to prevent software vendors from abusing it.) 01:05:45 you're weird. 01:06:19 elliott: Are *you* weird????? Or do I weird using too much question mark?????????????? 01:06:25 my point exactly 01:06:47 * Sgeo is sad that work on LoperOS seems... stalled 01:07:04 Sgeo: he's moved to an fpga solution. 01:07:10 work on loperos never started. 01:07:23 Ooh, linky? 01:08:36 Sgeo: it was in a comment. 01:08:54 it's not very relevant, there's approximately 0 chance it will ever get finished 01:09:07 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=316&cpage=1#comment-1421 01:23:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:24:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:24:54 -!- augur has joined. 01:25:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:27:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:36:17 -!- pumpkin has joined. 01:40:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:42:25 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:49:34 -!- cheater99 has joined. 01:50:26 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:54:23 Another thing I want to see in GNU GPL v4 is something that allows anyone to sue someone who violates the license (unless all copyright holders agree to make an exception), including non-copyright-holders, to ensure better that the other company does not violate the license. 01:54:30 k 01:54:38 i don't think that's legally valid. 01:55:01 Are you sure there is not some kind of way to write it that makes it legally valid? 01:55:39 no. i am sure of very little. 01:57:03 very socratic 01:57:52 Socratic? 01:58:25 being sure of very little. 01:58:47 oerjan: well i mean i'm sure of the big things, like I exist and most of you exist and the universe exists and this computer exists and the like. 01:58:53 it's more abstract things i'm not very sure of. 01:58:59 well 01:59:02 those are actually the little things 01:59:03 -!- coppro has joined. 01:59:06 the real world is pretty irrelevant 01:59:08 zzo38: you're allowed to sue someone for any reason you want 01:59:17 calamari: i don't think he meant sue 01:59:18 To ask someone who does know more about copyright laws, to tell about legally valid. 02:08:46 The current version of TeX is 535 pages long (not counting footnotes or any system-dependent changes). I have never written a program that long, and I might or might not do so in future, I do not know. 02:24:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:24:14 'I really don't have any ideas on making a better browser and I think doing a network "stack" (as the kids say) is difficult. I have a feeling there are propriatary Microsoft network protocols involved?' 02:25:54 --Terry Davis 02:27:21 * Sgeo stumbles upon Terry Davis's Reddit page 02:27:26 * Sgeo facepalms 02:28:24 'God says... tamedst longings blushed larger hardship handkerchief seemed rejection swelling commencement fallen Senators wroth abundantly virginity pleasantness compass unhesitatingly credibility growing lusteth slaves powerful afar bears anything impious storm enlarged cannot Willeth Passing transitory debtor hovered might eyesight ancient confound melted meantime wearing unbending wives seasons filth' --Terry Davis 02:28:30 -!- lament has joined. 02:29:00 What is Reddit, some place where you throw in random words to get a hit? 02:30:06 Is he using a random word thingy to try to determine what God says? I ... tried that once, actually. When it was incoherent, I rejected God 02:32:04 Oh, it's his trying to speak in tongues, I think 02:32:14 http://www.trivialsolutions.biz/BornAgain.html 02:39:42 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:44:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:46:55 02:28:24: 'God says... tamedst longings blushed larger hardship handkerchief seemed rejection swelling commencement fallen Senators wroth abundantly virginity pleasantness compass unhesitatingly credibility growing lusteth slaves powerful afar bears anything impious storm enlarged cannot Willeth Passing transitory debtor hovered might eyesight ancient confound melted meantime wearing unbending wives seasons filth' --Terry Davis 02:47:01 Sgeo: Yes yes, those are in all of his posts. 02:47:02 Well, close to it. 02:47:05 02:30:06: Is he using a random word thingy to try to determine what God says? I ... tried that once, actually. When it was incoherent, I rejected God 02:47:15 (1) He coded a random word thing. It is his God communication program. 02:47:23 (2) That is the most retarded fucking reason to reject God ever. 02:47:28 02:32:04: Oh, it's his trying to speak in tongues, I think 02:47:31 No, it's really a random number program. 02:47:33 02:32:14: http://www.trivialsolutions.biz/BornAgain.html 02:47:35 I linked to this. 02:47:58 I was exaggerating. More accurate to say that I failed to find God again 02:49:04 If you "tried to find God again" evidently any atheism you had was not founded on any kind of logic at all. 02:50:32 twiddling with random numbers in your generator sounds like exactly something an omniscient, omnipotent entity in charge of life in the universe would be doing 02:50:54 lament, if it wanted to convince me that it was there, it could 02:50:55 lament: It is certainly true that only an omniscient, omnipotent entity would be able to do that. 02:51:01 lament: But it's nonsense to assume such an entity WOULD. 02:51:32 I mean, one, you can't even hope to predict or understand any action by any entity so immensely more intelligent or knowledgeable, and two, that sounds like a waste of time. 02:51:45 Sgeo: but not anyone else, making you the next prophet. also quite likely 02:52:07 Sgeo: I don't know of any religion that has as a core belief "God tries to convince people he exists in every way possible, especially if they're trying to be all sciencey on me". 02:52:27 It's more like "If you accept Jesus *then* he'll come and sodomise your soul with love." 02:52:36 elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity 02:52:55 lament: noted. 02:53:03 `addquote elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity 02:53:06 362) elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity 02:53:19 lament, that's assuming you have a sex drive, and that that sex drive is directed to attraction to women with tits. Oh, that's implied with "what _I_ would do" I guess 02:53:30 i suspect that is in fact what God did and that's why prayers go unanswered 02:53:40 lament: that's my new favourite version of deism 02:53:49 Sgeo: god did create Adam in his image according to Genesis 02:54:20 so Eve, a perfect companion to Adam, is the image of a perfect companion to God 02:54:22 "And lo, the LORD saw that it was good, but it could use breasts and less bodily hair. Also more holes." 02:54:54 (and beer is the image of a perfect Divine beverage) 02:55:04 wait, where did beer come in :) 02:55:11 was that nestled in all those begats I skipped? 02:55:35 And Methuselah begat Yiriminihim who begat beer and lived to 869 years; ... 02:56:27 so my backtrace actually has 0x0 at the bottom, how cool is that??? 02:56:36 I love it when the stack gets clobbered, almost as much as I love Germans 02:58:05 bleh 02:58:12 something is clobbering the stack 03:00:33 something clobbering this way comes 03:02:01 -!- variable has joined. 03:02:48 hi variable, nice nick 03:03:15 variable: IT'S A TRAP, HE'S GOING TO BAN YOU 03:04:00 elliott: ? 03:04:08 lament: thanks 03:04:16 variable: DON'T TRUST LAMENT. 03:04:31 * variable changes 03:04:44 if i were to ban somebody right now, why wouldn't it be elliott 03:05:06 lament: probably because oerjan likes me too much! 03:05:10 now watch as oerjan preemptively bans me 03:05:15 all part of my grand master plan 03:06:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 03:06:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 03:07:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott. 03:07:12 :D 03:07:16 it's like all my dreams 03:07:26 ends with you being killed? 03:07:41 EEK 03:07:42 no, usually i'm naked in public. 03:07:49 you're all paedophiles. 03:08:02 elliott: You do not appear to be on the access list for this channel. 03:08:23 i have this feeling that either lament or oerjan opped me. it is clearly only a matter of time before i appear on that list. 03:08:24 But it still makes you to be the channel operator anyways? 03:09:49 elliott: If lament or oerjan opped you, then why does it says ChanServ? Isn't ChanServ only supposed to set to one who is in the access list? 03:10:01 Maybe one of them added me then removed me :P 03:10:02 Or they just did 03:10:07 /msg ChanServ op #esoteric elliott 03:10:30 oh wait, it even said lament 03:10:34 thanks ChanServ 03:11:25 :-| 03:11:55 variable: you're just jealous 'cuz i'm fluffy. 03:12:12 elliott: yes 03:12:31 Yep. 03:12:45 SO FLUFFY 8D 03:17:49 he's all fluff 03:18:07 fluffff 03:19:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:23:53 Why it says "The precondition on the request for the URL /w/index.php evaluated to false." but it does not say more specific? How can I know what I did wrong? 03:27:34 i think that means you hit the spam filter? 03:27:40 don't use div or span tags 03:28:11 I did not use div or span tags this time. Although once I did manage to add a DIV tag anyways 03:28:32 Sprunge the edit you're trying to make? 03:28:37 It also seems that setting the User-Agent wrong causes this message too? 03:28:46 Likely. 03:28:54 elliott: I did manage to make the edit now, by making some trick. 03:29:00 What trick? 03:29:15 I put "Telnet" 03:29:17 Oh, I see. 03:29:30 Even better you can use a template which expands to nothing. 03:29:35 That will have no effect on the resulting HTML. 03:29:53 I just made Template:Empty, so you could replace the b tag with {{empty}}. 03:29:57 elliott: Yes, in case of needing it somewhere that is not allowed, a template can be used. 03:30:36 But maybe autoconfirmed users should automatically bypass spam filter, or something similar like that? 03:30:43 Should it be designed like that? 03:31:55 That might be difficult. 03:32:02 IIRC it's not at the MediaWiki level. 03:32:30 Who owns this server? 03:32:31 -!- augur has joined. 03:32:43 Why does the software block telnet? 03:32:50 graue 03:33:41 Another way to do it, possibly, is making it to bypass if you use SSH instead of HTTP. 03:35:04 Why does PleasePorigeHot have an entry on c2/ 03:35:30 I don't know. 03:36:02 O, it is because there is a program there. 03:36:35 I removed some of broken links 03:41:09 * Sgeo wonders if Plan Nine is still alive 03:41:28 Last release was in 2002 03:41:46 Wait, didn't I try it before? 03:43:26 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:47:42 -!- Lymia has joined. 04:21:03 \let~\advance\time0\day0\loop~\time1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\time=3\time0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<100\repeat\bye 04:33:08 * Sgeo WTFs at Menuet unbearable slowness 04:39:50 -!- elliott has joined. 04:40:04 03:41:09: * Sgeo wonders if Plan Nine is still alive 04:40:08 03:41:28: Last release was in 2002 04:40:10 03:41:46: Wait, didn't I try it before? 04:40:12 (1) Plan 9 is the name 04:40:14 (2) Nightly CD builds are released 04:40:29 04:33:08: * Sgeo WTFs at Menuet unbearable slowness 04:40:30 Probably VM's fault 04:40:45 At any rate, I have failed to get Plan 9 to run in VirtualBox 04:41:01 Or, well, the.. oldish version I downloaded, anyway 04:43:40 use qemu 04:43:58 virtualbox as always only supports the most common operating systems due to trading accuracy for speed 04:45:25 hmm, actually that cd image might be fourth edition 04:45:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 04:45:33 whatever, it's updatable from inside 04:46:03 * Sgeo needs to sleep soon 04:50:11 this early? 04:50:18 The Coyotos people have a ... disturbing sense of humor 04:50:23 http://www.coyotos.org/download/index.html 04:52:21 that's not disturbing at all? 04:52:26 it was an april fools joke 04:52:35 but it's obviously a good point 04:54:39 It was an April Fools Joke? Thought it was just trying to make that point 04:55:03 About 10 and half hours until next round of APNIC stats. :-) 04:55:20 uh oh 04:55:23 depletion likely? 04:56:07 Well, 525 056 left (well, there's 4M in reachability testing, but unlikely to be released that fast). 04:56:53 gulp 04:56:58 There is a userbox in Wikipedia that just says "This userbox is correct" 04:59:12 Anyway, somebody's 2M request from China got seriously fragmented. 05:00:34 ... To 242 fragments. 05:02:21 2M request? 05:02:23 why :o 05:03:02 Sgeo: hmm, not actually april fools 05:03:04 [[16 May 2008: New web-based installation tool for Windows users.]] 05:03:06 but whatever 05:03:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_ColdFire WANT 05:03:47 Heh, one APNIC member account has 1864 prefixes allocated/assigned. 05:07:14 ... For only ~1.2M of address space. 05:10:08 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:29:26 Are they getting anything revoked? 05:35:28 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:58:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:28:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:31:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:43 Can you eat human flesh with wooden teeth? What kind of wood is best for doing so, and what color? 06:35:56 Vorpal: do you know if Alexia Massalin has done any kernel/OS work since Synthesis? Wikipedia has nuthin' <-- no clue. 06:37:54 elliott: You could call him/her/whatever and ask? 06:47:57 volleyball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eEefbwYvA 06:48:09 Do you know their telephone number? 06:50:42 "what color?" 06:50:49 that's a sorta weird question 06:51:28 the rest of the question being completely normal, of course... 06:52:33 *questions 06:52:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:57:56 zzo38: i'm pretty sure you can, with any kind of wood 07:02:22 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:02:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:15:09 oklopol: Maybe you can, but what kind is best? Has anyone done experiment with this? 07:35:13 -!- joba299792458 has joined. 08:07:57 zzo38: I ate out your sister, does that count? 08:10:21 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:12:54 calamari: Did you use wooden teeth? 08:15:42 zzo38: does it get to that question, short-circuit evaluation :P 08:29:33 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:31:10 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:43:45 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:45:34 -!- joba299792458 has changed nick to whiplash. 08:45:53 -!- whiplash has changed nick to Whiplash. 08:46:15 -!- Whiplash has changed nick to WHiPLaSH. 08:46:29 -!- WHiPLaSH has changed nick to PHiZiX. 08:46:43 -!- PHiZiX has changed nick to joba. 08:49:14 -!- joba has quit. 08:55:19 If you use wooden teeth and you know what kind of wood it is, then maybe it counts? 09:05:07 -!- cheater has joined. 09:41:20 -!- cheater00 has joined. 09:43:17 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:43:31 -!- cheater- has joined. 09:45:44 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:32:18 -!- Mannerisky has joined. 10:34:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:56:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:28:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:31:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:43:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:43:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 11:43:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:45:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:54:42 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:56:17 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:02:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:11:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:20:44 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 12:23:37 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:26:02 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:27:13 -!- sftp has joined. 12:48:16 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:49:08 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:56:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:59:06 -!- augur has joined. 13:14:10 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 13:14:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:17:26 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:20:03 -!- augur has joined. 13:28:21 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:07:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:08:33 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 14:16:19 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:18:24 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: "nothing so gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums"). 14:32:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:43:30 -!- pumpkin has joined. 14:44:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:58:13 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:00:32 ok, so I have cleverly eliminated cons from Bizaaro-Pixley, which is now provisionally going by the name "PAIL" ("LISP" stands for "LISt Processing" -> "PAIL" stands for "PAIr Language") 15:01:34 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:14:26 I tried cleverly introducing "ubiquitous closures" where not only function values but in fact *every pair* could close over the environment, but I think that's overkill; really, a closure just traps bindings from the environment at the time it's created, and you can do that by evaluating them at that time. 15:20:51 Trying to cleverly eliminate lambda by providing an "uneval" function. It works to some degree, but I haven't convinced myself that one can write recursive functions with it yet, because it's weird enough that I don't completely understand how to use it. 15:22:07 Always nice to actually have to restore something from backup for real. :-/ 15:26:06 Hmm... APNIC down 0.00: 2k+/48 Australia, /32 to Japan. 15:26:56 523 008 addresses left (2043 /24s). 15:31:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:34:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:45:17 -!- augur has joined. 15:45:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:46:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:51:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:25:16 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:37:44 Logspace left: /13.00 16:39:08 Bascially, any allocation /13 or larger will deplete it. 48 days this year have had such allocations. 16:40:59 And that's about 2/3 of business days. 16:47:32 Always nice to actually have to restore something from backup for real. :-/ <-- it is nicer to not need it though 16:50:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:50:22 HEY GUYS 16:59:35 HEY GUY 17:01:41 * oerjan tweaks Vorpal's sarcasm detector a notch or five 17:02:39 -!- cpressey has changed nick to v^. 17:03:18 now my message lines start with all four Befunge arrows 17:06:29 * v^ just realized bitbucket is free 17:06:37 er, has a free private plan 17:07:48 I should probably move there instead of paying whatever it is I pay per month for whatever version control it is that I use 17:08:26 -!- v^ has changed nick to cpressey. 17:08:31 * cpressey -> lunch 17:17:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:27:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:28:24 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:35:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:36:41 yes: http://kwejk.pl/obrazek/44037/minecraft.html 17:38:45 -!- elliott has joined. 17:39:54 -!- augur has joined. 17:39:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:08 06:35:56: Vorpal: do you know if Alexia Massalin has done any kernel/OS work since Synthesis? Wikipedia has nuthin' <-- no clue. 17:41:08 06:37:54: elliott: You could call him/her/whatever and ask? 17:41:08 Her; and I'm not about to go internetstalking for a phone number :P I suppose if she's still at MicroUnity like Wikipedia says there won't be anything public. 17:41:18 "Given the company's overly ambitious goals, Silicon Valley insiders had nicknamed the company MicroLunacy." 17:41:53 cheater: I will punch the SHIT out of those trees. 17:42:41 cpressey: No Git love? :-P 17:42:53 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:42:53 elliott: what about scapegoat? 17:43:31 -!- elliott has joined. 17:43:39 I swear X isn't usually *this* much of an unreliable piece of shit. 17:44:23 elliott: what about scapegoat? 17:44:31 elliott: barely any hg love; git love is asking way too much. also, github does not have free private accounts, looks like. 17:44:38 coppro: has a striking lack of existence 17:44:44 cpressey: just rot13 every file! 17:44:48 elliott: fix it 17:44:52 cpressey: No darcs love? :-P 17:44:59 cpressey: github is a service 17:45:03 you are not required to use it 17:45:08 Uhhh, and? 17:45:21 coppro: know one that has free private accts/ 17:45:24 s///?/ 17:45:41 cpressey: A repository host? Not off-hand, no. 17:45:43 cpressey: can't you just store things locally? 17:45:46 or do you use multiple machines :P 17:45:48 but you can just host locally 17:45:56 or on a server of yours 17:45:57 or something 17:46:06 You can pull via HTTP so you can even synchronise multiple hosts with shared hosting if you're in for a "fun" time. 17:46:08 you do not need github to use git 17:46:16 coppro: i know that 17:48:34 what i want: free private version control. that is all. 17:48:43 git 17:48:49 coppro: where? 17:48:55 that's your problem 17:49:06 what you want is 'free private hosting' 17:49:22 with version control, yes 17:49:27 coppro: wooble is the one who just ragequit in agora right? 17:49:28 on which you can host a repository 17:49:30 i've totes lost track 17:49:38 elliott: how 'just'? 17:49:45 "Well, it is /partly/, and although e may have overreacted, if you had 17:49:45 been a bit nicer about it then e might not have quit." 17:49:49 elliott: I don't have email access right now 17:49:49 as discussed in DIS: Re: BUS: IADoP 17:49:53 oh :) 17:49:55 but Wooble does regularly ragequit 17:49:58 indeed 17:50:03 e even has a patent title for it 17:50:04 i'm trying to figure out whether it really is wooble 17:50:06 (Commuted in a Huff) 17:50:12 because if it is, I can reply snarkily! 17:51:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:53:30 "This rebus, I had hope"? 17:53:50 or perhaps "This rebus I adopt" would be better 17:58:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:03:48 -!- monqy has joined. 18:10:43 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:11:16 -!- augur has joined. 18:12:08 Gregor: very good 18:14:34 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to wharrgarbl. 18:23:48 "Spark is a new dialect of Lisp that aims to be popular, useful and used for real-world tasks. Eventually we hope that people will get payed to write in Spark, sometimes against their will." 18:24:04 -!- PH|notidented has joined. 18:24:20 Christ, Redditors are so pathetic. 18:24:29 MUST. NOT. EMPHATHISE. 18:24:33 *EMPATHISE 18:24:41 As long as they don't get payed to do spellchecking, I supose. 18:25:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:25:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:25:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 18:25:50 Oh, activity on that project lasted a whole two months. The most recent activity is editing a doc which explains why Lisp is unpopular. 18:25:53 hi PH|notidented 18:25:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:26:02 hehehheh 18:26:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:26:08 is Spark any good 18:26:11 18 months ago 18:26:21 I haven't looked at it but... 18:26:24 -!- PH|notidented has quit (Changing host). 18:26:24 -!- PH|notidented has joined. 18:26:24 -!- PH|notidented has quit (Changing host). 18:26:24 -!- PH|notidented has joined. 18:26:34 emphphphaththaize 18:26:35 -!- PH|notidented has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 18:26:39 it is a difficult word yes 18:26:46 emphatologies 18:26:49 phat :D 18:27:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 18:27:06 even worse than neccccccessssssity I think 18:27:06 werd 18:27:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:27:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 18:27:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:27:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 18:28:07 -!- wharrgarbl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:28:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:35:26 "remote: bb/acl: cpressey is allowed. accepted payload." 18:35:49 seeing that every time I push a change is going to be the true cost of this service 18:35:55 :D 18:37:00 graaah must not `addquote things from outside #esoteric 18:37:43 must not must not 18:38:31 Are you talking about that ESR one? 18:38:44 you can quote it and then we can addquote you quoting it 18:38:53 then it's from #esoteric 18:39:48 GENIUS 18:39:54 no it's too snarky 18:39:56 too snarky 18:39:57 even for me 18:40:03 addquote or no addquote i must know what this is 18:40:03 and someone might actually take it seriously too 18:40:09 elliott, there's some stuff from #lobby 18:40:09 cpressey: Um, no. INTERCAL is one of the things that is ESR working in his sphere of powerful competence. He is a geek, Donald Knuth is a God-mode geek, INTERCAL is the canonical esolang, this shit is way cool all the way down. 18:40:18 it's way cools all the way down 18:40:39 ... 18:40:39 (also on esr: "He has code in every Linux-based gadget you use - if his contributions disappeared, your broadband modem and even your television would be bricks.") 18:40:45 LITERALLY BRICKS 18:41:03 nobody else, but NOBODY, could have written "large chunks of libgif and libpng"! 18:41:25 BtW, this guy is totally serious. 18:41:30 HALP MY TV IS NOW MADE OF CLAY 18:41:35 when his contributions disappears, esr bricks shit? 18:41:41 evil man 18:41:52 :D 18:41:59 you'll brick shit 18:42:10 when you see it 18:42:13 you'll shitsbrick 18:42:18 the phrase "sphere of powerful competence" used in *any* serious context is bad enough 18:42:32 cpressey: this phrase also available at: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lubo%C5%A1_Motl 18:42:34 I have a sphere of powerful competence in the field of PSOX 18:42:45 pretty sure david gerard is the worst 18:42:54 Or, um, no. "Competence" may be the wrong word 18:43:01 uh oh, Sgeo's sphere is in the field 18:43:37 THEORY: Reddit consists mainly of Sgeos. 18:48:07 elliott: that article seems to be missing the word "powerful" in that phrase. it's a wiki -- should I add it? 18:48:19 cpressey: yes, but they might demote you to sysop for it 18:48:19 * cpressey debates 18:48:24 be careful. 18:49:15 cpressey: you'd need an account for them to demote you, though. 18:49:23 Edit anonymously and see the warning! 18:49:34 Phantom_Hoover: they might be so disgusted that they'll code IP sysop functionality in 18:50:37 cpressey: DO IT ALREADY 18:50:44 OR I WILL PROMOTE YOU MYSELF 18:51:33 Phantom_Hoover: I think "demote" definitely applies here 18:51:39 Unless you're threatening to block him. 18:52:18 * Sgeo is STEVE GRAND! 18:52:28 elliott: BOTH 18:52:41 Blocked sysops: the best kind of sysops. 18:54:39 * cpressey reads about ESR's contributions on http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL 18:56:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:56:24 btw, I love these tools that still spew something to your terminal when you run them with "2>&1 >foo". 18:56:29 oh dear, zzo has _two_ dialects of intercal 18:56:44 cpressey: echo "THIS IS IMPORTANT" >/dev/tty 18:57:02 cpressey, passwd? 18:57:48 Note: I am not actually asking for your password 18:58:56 it's a unit test runner harness thing 18:59:42 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:59:42 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host). 18:59:42 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:59:58 -!- augur has joined. 19:00:06 OrthINTERCAL is dead 19:00:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:00:56 almost as dead as rabbits 19:01:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:01:10 * elliott {{deadlink}} 19:09:19 ugh, is there like a published directory hierarchy standard for Haskell packages? 19:09:35 or is it like Perl where you guess what would be a good place 19:10:23 It's mostly like Haskell ::trollface:: 19:11:41 * cpressey nods slowly 19:12:08 and wow does bitbucket's search suck 19:12:40 there seems to be some kind of tradition for where to put packages in the hierarchy 19:12:48 but nothing clearly defined afaik 19:13:15 not that it really matters, it'll only make people think less of you for putting your package in a silly place 19:13:19 ok, so it's like, look at what's there and guess. that's fine, i just wanted to know 19:16:36 oh, oerjan's gone now. durt 19:17:53 now you can call him "drittoerjan" for leaving 19:19:30 yes, I will totally do that 19:19:48 and I just (re)discovered the "script" command, which might solve my 2>&1 woes 19:22:01 script is cool 19:22:08 ugh, is there like a published directory hierarchy standard for Haskell packages? 19:22:13 cpressey: well hackage is kinda close :P 19:24:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:25:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:28:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:30:25 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:31:20 yeah, hackage 19:32:12 it looks like if I were to release a testing tool called Falderal I could just call its package Test.Falderal 19:32:19 NOTE the name Falderal WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE 19:32:44 ...however... 19:32:49 * cpressey shakes head 19:32:56 I need to go back to debugging 19:33:24 xD 19:34:57 -!- augur has joined. 19:37:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:38:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:41:33 I GOOD CODER 19:46:05 it looks like if I were to make a testing tool for Haskell it would be slightly uncool if it was not built as a "provider" for http://batterseapower.github.com/test-framework/ 19:47:57 WHO NEEDS ANYTHING OTHER THAN QUICKCHECK 19:49:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:50:08 -!- cheater00 has joined. 19:50:09 HELLO GUYS 19:50:27 !c printf("%d", -3/2) 19:50:32 -1 19:50:59 It's to -inf then. 19:51:04 So fdiv. 19:51:11 Uhhh, no, that's truncation. 19:51:19 Ohrightyesofcourse 19:51:23 cdiv :P 19:51:26 NO 19:51:28 tdiv. 19:51:31 I'm so retarded. 19:51:32 -3.0/2 = -1.5, which would go to -2 19:51:36 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:51:46 Whichever one is correct, do that one X-P 19:57:58 elliott: THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT NOW I WILL NEVER SAVE THE WORLD 19:58:08 cpressey: YAY! 20:07:19 cpressey: AT LEAST SAVE MY COLONY ON MARS 20:07:42 On C#: "Also, standards usually suggest that you use string.Empty over """ 20:07:44 Erm. 20:07:45 [[Also, standards usually suggest that you use string.Empty over ""]] 20:07:49 WHY GOD WHY 20:09:23 lolol 20:09:27 Suppose the value of the empty string changes someday... 20:10:15 I can imagine suggesting such a thing as a joke 20:10:30 I guess the one writing those standards just failed to recognize it 20:13:29 Phantom_Hoover: stop phant 20:21:14 -!- newsham has joined. 20:21:33 why was i not informed of esoteric channel earlier? :) 20:21:44 <- currently doing functional programming in java. 20:21:53 we were trying to hide it from you. 20:21:58 good call 20:22:11 I guess that's it everyone, channel's ruined, go home. 20:22:36 Need a teleporter 20:22:40 sometimes i write security exploits for 1970s operating systems 20:22:59 oops, I'm the one who told him about #esoteric 20:23:03 That's okay, our wiki runs on Multics. 20:23:07 60s security! 20:23:08 string.Empty CAN HAS LOCALIZATION 20:23:16 i still dont have a multics simulator :( 20:23:39 though now at least i have the srcs, yay mit. 20:23:39 we should totally move the wiki to multics. multics is awesome. 20:23:54 I couldn't find a proper source tarball, just a bunch of hyperlinked stuff 20:23:56 when I looked 20:24:33 I suppose I could wget it but it goes against my fundamental principles of laziness 20:24:45 dont you think it would be more appropriate to run wiki on 8th ed unix? 20:24:59 I feel it should run on @ 20:25:07 what's @? 20:25:10 don't ask 20:25:22 elliott, is e supposed to retroactively unask? 20:25:34 or scapegoat's built-in wiki server perhaps 20:25:47 so your forth interpreter is <512 bytes? 20:26:02 I don't think it's done yet 20:26:04 olsner: how much have you revealed! 20:26:08 this is treachery :( 20:26:22 yep, it's treachery alright :D 20:26:25 newsham: "Forth" is a stretch, and it's less than 300 bytes right now but lacks a compiler :) 20:26:30 I have revealed everything I know 20:26:32 * Sgeo_ is planning to sned these logs to WikiLeaks 20:26:42 It's certainly stack-based and subroutine threaded, but it doesn't have things like arithmetic, integer literals, ... 20:26:46 But it's close, I tell ya, close. 20:26:49 i look forward to the rapnews video, sgeo. 20:27:32 newsham: when you say "functional programming in java", do I even want to know what you mean by that? 20:28:16 cpr: http://www.thenewsh.com/~chat/j/XPrelude.java 20:28:52 newsham: i had a nightmare that looked like that once. 20:29:04 now do it all as pure lambdas with church encoding 20:29:29 elliott: my lambda calc interpretter is here http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/ :) 20:29:42 that's not Java! 20:29:43 it allows arithmetic with normal numbers, but its trivial ot use church encoding too 20:30:12 pure lambdas might actually be not so bad in java, as I wouldnt have to use all the generics 20:30:21 i should give it a shot sometime 20:30:51 I'm really proud of this script http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/primes2.lam 20:31:16 that's not Java! 20:31:17 which I've rendered as obfuscated py in minimized form here http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/obf2.py 20:31:22 that's not really lambda calculus either 20:31:38 i mean, it is 20:31:43 with a LOT of syntactic sugar 20:31:48 *but with 20:32:17 cpressey: like I said, it has a few primitives besides lambda calc, but one of the reasons i wrote it was so that i could do lambda calc stuff directly in it with only one syntactic addition, macros 20:32:29 if you unmacro you can get pure lc 20:32:50 but its nice having some IO occasionally :) 20:33:35 newsham: http://esolangs.org/ btw 20:34:03 danke. is that related to this channel? 20:35:01 well, as related as these things get :) 20:35:05 wow, there's a message board there, never noticed before 20:35:16 olsner: it gets a post once every five years! 20:35:29 i meant like, is there a formal connection or just similar minded. 20:35:38 i'm guessing by your comments the latter :) 20:35:47 well, define formal :D 20:35:52 the connection wears a tuxedo 20:35:55 most everyone comes here from the wiki 20:36:02 and most people here are on the wiki 20:36:07 good enough for me. 20:36:11 but the founder of this channel isn't the founder of the wiki. 20:36:11 I come from obsessively reading the wiki 20:36:16 Damn family are pestering again. 20:36:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:36:20 also the channel is several years older 20:37:00 hmm, how did I get here? can't remember 20:37:16 I think my gender-confused norn is male or female 20:37:28 olsner: you typed "go north" from the twisty maze? 20:37:35 * Sgeo_ doesn't remember how he got here. Probably from wiki, bt maybe not 20:37:36 BRB 20:37:37 I know I've come here twice though 20:37:56 % grep olsner *.*.* | head 20:37:56 07.08.07:10:50:38 --- join: olsner (n=salparot@c-cf8fe155.710-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #esoteric 20:37:56 07.08.07:10:53:54 * olsner also once learned to 120 but is now back to just 60 20:37:58 as in, stumbled upon it, stayed a while, and then forgot about it completely enough that I found it for the first time again 20:38:03 everyone should have to state why they come here the first time they come in here. 20:38:12 wow, i was there the first day olsner came. could swear he's been here longer than me. 20:38:15 unless different nick. 20:38:21 i came here because olsner has a big mouth and elliott has a small forth 20:38:35 elliott: always used this one on freenode 20:38:36 newsham: your cooperation is appreciated. 20:38:51 I used Sgep for a time 20:39:57 Some came here from the mailing list. 20:40:38 fizzie: *Old people 20:41:03 Nov 16 01:58:43 note also that zebras are black with white stripes rather than white with black stripes 20:41:41 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:42:27 do early C compilers (and B) count as esoteric? 20:43:05 maybe 20:43:09 probably 20:43:36 there's a working image of a 1st-edition(ish) unix that has a very early prototypical C compiler 20:43:42 circa 1972 20:44:01 erm, first edition unix had C? 20:44:13 wp says 3rd edition introduced C 20:44:20 in early 1973 20:44:37 oh, ais523 asked me about compiling his Underload interpreter in Thue to mod_rewrite, some time in 2008 20:45:35 no, 1st ed didnt have C. but the earliest filesystem for unix that survives had a work-in-progress C compiler on it 20:45:44 heh. cool 20:45:48 elliott, curious wording from dwarf fortress: " cancels Make Totem: Need unrotten totemable body part" 20:45:52 "totemable" :D 20:45:53 i've used IIRC V5 unix in simh 20:45:59 it was ... interesting 20:46:15 http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ <- has image you can run on simh 20:46:35 -!- augur has joined. 20:47:18 yeah, i remember seeing that 20:47:28 i think the simh image is new? 20:47:30 i don't recall that 20:47:45 * Sgeo_ learns of simh 20:48:04 PDP-11 20:48:12 That's... significant somehow. How? 20:48:16 simh has a large suite of simulators. pdp11 is one of them. 20:48:56 Yes, but I've seen "PDP-11" before somewhere, and alone, as in, not in a list of historical architectures 20:49:08 Maybe something that gcc supports? 20:49:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 20:49:16 Sgeo_: what an astoundingly vague question. 20:49:25 C was invented for a PDP-11, at least 20:49:35 elliott, that's probably it 20:49:39 there's also a fortran and basic in the 1st ed image, fwiw. 20:49:42 thus the "PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's a language" 20:50:38 elliott, congratulations on answering an astoundingly vague question 20:51:07 You have: no tea 20:51:28 http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/printf.b 20:52:09 but but .b is brainfuck :) 20:52:16 yeah, B is... an interesting language 20:52:29 someone shoulda told ken about the conflict in 1971. 20:52:34 indeed 20:52:37 switch c = char(fmt,i++) { 20:52:41 heh 20:52:46 I think modifying the rewrite stuff to do a redirect might get around the memory limitations at the cost of requiring a network roundtrip to the client to make a new request 20:53:12 I'm tired. Does it show? 20:53:33 I think it could even complete hello world then 20:53:35 if(x < O) { 20:53:39 newsham: "x < O" nice 20:53:43 Typo? :-P 20:54:20 printn(x, c=='o'?8:1O); 20:54:20 /* too */ 20:54:23 `d'/`o' vs 'c'/'s' 20:54:24 dont know. src came from dmr's web page.. not sure if he got it from electronic copy or not 20:54:27 No output. 20:54:35 yeah, ` as a string starter is sheer genius :D 20:54:40 looks typo-ish to me 20:54:56 newsham: or OCR-ish 20:55:32 OCR on code is a brilliant idea 20:56:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:56:53 monqy: the only surviving copy of the 1st ed kernel was a printout. we actually ocr'd and manually fixed it to get it running. 20:57:00 indeed, loads of fun ocr'ing code 20:57:11 mmmm 20:57:30 oh cool you're (partly) behind unix-jun72? 20:57:53 *nod* 20:58:00 hmm... what was the unix ais523 was trying to port C-INTERCAL do 20:58:01 *to 20:58:06 I think it was V7, because it had yacc and pcc 20:59:16 That's an issue with self-hosting things, I guess. Can't easily go from printout to functional copy 20:59:26 Well, you can, if you find the bootstrap version, I guess 21:00:08 Sgeo_: yeah, that'd be relevant, were this 1972 :) 21:01:11 ahh, here's the doc printf.b is from http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html 21:01:32 "This is a rendition, after scanning, OCR, and editing, of an internal Bell Labs Technical Memorandum dated January 7, 1972. It is Ken's original manual for the B language on the PDP-11." 21:04:04 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:05:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:05:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 21:05:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:07:24 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:19:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:29:05 -!- dnm has joined. 21:32:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:33:57 ugh, is there like a published directory hierarchy standard for Haskell packages? 21:34:01 yes there is. 21:34:11 oh, oerjan's gone now. durt 21:34:18 there is? 21:34:23 he means the package hierarchy 21:34:27 oh, cpressey's gone now. durt 21:34:47 he does? 21:34:57 yes. 21:35:07 oh i thought he meant the module naming 21:36:05 i've noticed a number of packages not in the place i would have guessed first. i think the unlambda package was one... 21:36:45 um 21:36:47 he did mean module naming 21:36:56 ah. well then there is. 21:37:48 -!- augur has joined. 21:38:03 orly? 21:38:15 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names 21:39:55 now you can call him "drittoerjan" for leaving 21:40:31 TEACHING FOREIGNERS HOW TO CALL NAMES IN NORWEGIAN IS _NOT_ ALLOWED 21:41:08 @tell cpressey http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names 21:41:08 Consider it noted. 21:41:40 i'm not sure if that was the question he wanted to ask _me_ though 21:44:15 "Spark is a new dialect of Lisp that aims to be popular, useful and used for real-world tasks. Eventually we hope that people will get payed to write in Spark, sometimes against their will." 21:44:18 :D 21:44:27 i thought spark was an ada dialect 21:44:34 is that a pun 21:44:41 what? 21:45:03 a dialect for particularly secure programming 21:45:19 ok if oerjan responds to "is that a pun" with "what?" it's _definitely_ a pun 21:45:28 SPARK is a formally-defined computer programming language based on the Ada programming language, intended to be secure and to support the development of high integrity software used in applications and systems where predictable and highly reliable operation is essential either for reasons of safety (e.g., avionics in aircraft/spacecraft, or medical systems and process control software in nuclear powerplants) or for business integrity (for example 21:45:29 financial software for banking and insurance companies). 21:45:29 darn 21:45:35 for once, oerjan says something based on facts rather than puns 21:45:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_(programming_language) 21:46:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:47:11 i think it used to be discussed on LtU when i followed it 21:47:54 As long as they don't get payed to do spellchecking, I supose. 21:47:57 *argh* 21:48:07 no way that wasn't on purpose 21:48:33 :D 21:49:41 it is a difficult word yes 21:49:50 we can emphatically empathise with that 21:50:49 graaah must not `addquote things from outside #esoteric 21:50:55 i thought we'd done that already 21:51:27 we have :) 21:51:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:53:49 cpressey: yes, but they might demote you to sysop for it 21:54:10 ...where is sysop _lower_ than the default level? 21:54:23 oerjan: it's a rationalwiki semi-meme 21:54:34 huh 21:54:37 demotion is user -> sysop -> crat, promotion is crat -> sysop -> user 21:55:02 um so you start at the top and work your way down? 21:55:13 no, you start at user 21:55:19 "↑ Bad experiences with power-tripping Conservapedia sysops, and the nature of sysop chores have made them call sysopship a "demotion"." 21:55:23 --RationalWikiWiki 21:55:33 um and user seemed to be at the top 21:55:45 oerjan: THAT'S THE JOKE DOT JPG 21:55:48 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 21:55:58 a user being the least stressful/hassled/etc. rank 21:56:13 ah. 21:56:30 oerjan: (relevant is that basically every active RationalWiki editor is a sysop) 21:56:39 due to a unique[1] demotion policy 21:56:40 [1] retarded 21:57:15 looks like there's about 25 crats too 21:57:24 ic 21:58:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:58:49 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:59:58 doesn't matter if we turn to dust. turn and turn and turn we must. 22:01:56 elliott, is e supposed to retroactively unask? 22:02:03 no that's feather, not @ 22:04:55 but the founder of this channel isn't the founder of the wiki. 22:05:22 which hardly matters given neither is around here any more 22:05:36 -!- cpressey has joined. 22:06:24 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:06:49 oerjan: well lament was here yesterday... 22:06:50 cpressey: hi 22:06:51 cpressey: you might want to read last half hour's logs 22:07:02 Hey lambdabot, perchance do I have any new messages? Hmmmmmmm? 22:07:02 cpressey: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 22:07:06 I KNEW it 22:07:14 ...from reading the logs 22:07:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]). 22:07:52 * oerjan tears apart cpressey's newly printed certificate of clairvoyance 22:08:05 another triumph of science over synchronicity 22:08:13 * oerjan sets mode +b elliott 22:08:26 oerjan: can i have ops again like yesterday, just 'cause i had to sleep it's not fair my powers were stripped 22:09:35 WHY SHOULD WE TRUST YOU WITH OPS IF YOU KEEP LOSING IT 22:10:20 :( 22:11:45 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 22:12:02 oerjan: ty for http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names and I will note that I find it humorous that the very first to be listed is Algebra, with the comment "Was this ever used?" 22:12:20 heh 22:13:52 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:15:59 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 22:16:09 !c printf("%d\n", 3 % -5) 22:16:15 3 22:16:23 !c printf("%d\n", 7 % -5) 22:16:26 2 22:16:29 !c printf("%d\n", -2 % -5) 22:16:32 -2 22:16:35 -!- augur has joined. 22:16:36 Well that's odd 22:17:02 !c printf("%d %d %d %d\n", 3 % -5, 7 % -5, -2 % -5, 2 % -5) 22:17:04 3 2 -2 2 22:17:38 One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is not the same :P 22:17:46 !c printf("%d\n", -2 % 5) 22:17:48 -2 22:18:10 !c printf("%d\n", (-2) % 5) 22:18:12 -2 22:18:19 OK, worst mod ever. 22:18:31 !c printf("%d\n", 0 % 0) 22:18:33 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 19743 Floating point exception/tmp/compiled.$$ 22:18:54 !c printf("%d\n", 0L % 0L) 22:18:56 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 19825 Floating point exception/tmp/compiled.$$ 22:19:21 maybe C turned into Lua while I wasn't looking 22:19:28 Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo_operation see table on the right 22:19:33 cpressey: Uhhh, no, that's correct ... 22:19:50 "correct" for C, I'm sure 22:19:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:18 Yup, that page sez that's right. 22:20:28 Still, in my not-even-remotely-humble opinion, -2 % 5 should be 3. 22:20:46 OHWAIT 22:20:48 Yes, divisor would be nice 22:20:52 But if it was then it wouldn't work with truncated division. 22:21:17 The way it stands, you can always multiply back and then add back to get the original value, with my way it'd be a pain. 22:25:36 leggo my ego 22:26:25 !c printf("%p\n", &main) 22:26:27 0x4004ec 22:26:47 !c printf("%x %x %x %x %x %x"); 22:26:49 da3d24c0 da3d24d0 400530 a96584b0 a96b0f80 da3d24c0 22:27:12 right on 22:27:30 !c printf("%p\n", &system) 22:27:32 0x400440 22:28:36 !c printf("%p\n", system) 22:28:38 0x400440 22:29:11 !c printf("%s\n", fread(0xda3d24d0-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")); 22:29:13 Does not compile. 22:29:17 !c printf("%x\n", ((int *)system)*) 22:29:19 Does not compile. 22:29:28 !c printf("%x\n", *((int *)system)) 22:29:31 4d225ff 22:29:40 !c printf("%s\n", fread(0xda3d24d0-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r"))); 22:29:41 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21099 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:29:56 !c printf("%s\n", fread(0xa96b0f80-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r"))); 22:29:58 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21177 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:30:11 oops, fread returns size_t 22:30:43 newsham: good luck with that 22:30:45 !c fread(0xa96b0f80-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")); printf("%s\n", 0xa96b0f80-4096); 22:30:47 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21312 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:30:50 !sh ls 22:30:51 interps 22:30:59 (DCCs the rest) 22:31:04 `run echo hi there! 22:31:08 hi there! 22:31:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 22:31:25 just curious about the bot's sandboxing 22:31:48 !c fread(0xa96b0f80-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")); 22:31:54 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 22656 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:32:00 !c fread(0xda3d24c0-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")); 22:32:02 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 22712 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:32:11 newsham: It's ... err, what's it called again. 22:32:14 Plash. 22:32:42 !c int x = 5; printf("%d\n", x); 22:32:44 5 22:32:50 Ooh, the implementor of this Forth I want to play with on some hardware wrote me back. 22:32:58 ahh, it takes msgs, ok, sorry for all the news :) 22:33:02 noise 22:33:13 newsham: hey i find it interesting :) 22:33:19 or at least time-passing. 22:33:43 popen returns nil 22:34:48 newsham: you probably want to try HackEgo instead. 22:34:52 it has full gcc, etc. 22:34:56 and file writing 22:37:01 > [divMod, quotRem] <*> [2,-2] <*> [3,-3] 22:37:02 [(0,2),(-1,-1),(-1,1),(0,-2),(0,2),(0,2),(0,-2),(0,-2)] 22:40:44 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 22:40:56 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:40:58 what is this i don't even 22:41:09 > :t <*> 22:41:09 cpressey: hm? 22:41:10 : parse error on input `:' 22:41:16 > :t `<*>` 22:41:17 : parse error on input `:' 22:41:22 :t (<*>) 22:41:23 forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 22:41:46 i prefer my random stabs at the syntax 22:42:01 O KAY 22:44:43 > [f,g] <*> [x,y] :: [Expr] 22:44:44 [f x,f y,g x,g y] 22:46:04 i get it but i have no idea how it works 22:46:11 > g 22:46:12 Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints: 22:46:12 `SimpleReflect.FromExpr ... 22:46:22 ok, maybe it is time for me to go 22:46:33 you need the :: Expr, g is overloaded 22:46:38 > g :: Expr 22:46:39 g 22:48:08 > 4 :: Expr 22:48:09 4 22:48:12 SimpleReflect is a hack for doing some very simple symbolic evaluations 22:48:20 oh good, a hack 22:48:32 > Expr :: Expr 22:48:33 Not in scope: data constructor `Expr' 22:48:40 it's useful to demonstrate what some functions do 22:49:02 > foldr f a [x,y,z] :: Expr 22:49:03 f x (f y (f z a)) 22:50:45 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 22:51:26 <*> isn't part of it, i just used it to demonstrate 22:52:09 > sum [a,b,c,1,2,3] 22:52:10 0 + a + b + c + 1 + 2 + 3 22:54:05 !c char ad[] = {2,0,4,0x50,0x48,0xeb,0xc9,0x04, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0}; printf("%d\n", connect(socket(2, 1, 0), ad, 16)); 22:54:07 -1 22:54:18 !c char ad[] = {2,0,4,0x50,0x48,0xeb,0xc9,0x04, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0}; printf("%d\n", connect(socket(2, 1, 0), ad, 16)); 22:54:20 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:54:20 0 22:54:24 <*> is essentially monadic although it generalizes to a slightly larger typeclass Applicative 22:54:26 egobot can tcp to me. 22:54:34 that sounds dangerous. 22:54:42 newsham: it worked? 22:54:45 it did. 22:54:52 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 22:54:55 the first one failed because i wasnt running nc at the time 22:55:01 then the second one succeeded bcause I was 22:55:46 thats tcp connect to 72.235.201.4:1104 22:56:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:57:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:57:26 oerjan: you could use `fmap` and `ap` instead of <$> and <*> if you wanted to stay in monad 22:57:33 i know 22:57:45 also if you wanna stay _lame_ 22:57:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:57:56 :) 22:57:57 also you mean liftM not fmap 22:58:10 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 22:58:16 ?type (liftM, fmap) 22:58:17 forall a1 r (m :: * -> *) a b (f :: * -> *). (Monad m, Functor f) => ((a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r, (a -> b) -> f a -> f b) 22:58:29 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit). 22:58:32 oh right, one is in Functor :) 22:58:40 so many names for the same function. 22:58:44 <*> is essentially monadic although it generalizes to a slightly larger typeclass Applicative 22:58:49 I THOUGHT I SMELLED FISH 22:59:00 delicious monad fish 22:59:05 but my general confusion was too great 22:59:35 monadic is just a meaningless a buzzword 22:59:37 *-a 22:59:45 for lists, l1 <*> l2 = [f x | f <- l1, x <- l2] 22:59:48 so.. anyone gonna write up commands to make the two ego bots connect to each other over tcp and exchange some data? 23:00:01 heh 23:00:44 would be kinda funny making it connect to irc, join #esoteric and say something, though i imagine the time limit on running a command is too short 23:01:21 would be less funny making it into a spambot :( 23:01:38 i assume Gregor approves of such experiments 23:01:48 Argh, when did shorewall break UID range rejection >_< 23:01:54 (not the spam part) 23:02:36 Gregor: what? and is this related to newsham's hack? 23:03:01 :t [] 23:03:01 obviously :) 23:03:02 forall a. [a] 23:03:07 (as in your firewall was supposed to prevent it) 23:03:17 Yeah. The only thing that prevents outbound connections is a firewall rule (networking is an obnoxious thing to block), but apparently shorewall has broken the ability to block by ranges >_< 23:04:12 newsham: Dare you to find a hole in fungot. 23:04:12 elliott: there was an error. imo the feature belongs there... 23:04:13 ^source 23:04:13 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 23:04:37 not now, but perhaps i'll take a look later. 23:04:54 if i can figure out the code :) 23:05:03 " newsham: Dare you to find a hole in fungot." <<< if you meant what i think you meant by this, fungot's answer was pretty nice 23:05:03 oklopol: along with nick, for a start, languages need good support so that tool framework developers can use continuations nicely to restart database transactions that have failed due to deadlocks nearly as easily, and their effect is an error 23:05:09 then again i'm not reading context 23:05:17 is fungot sandboxed? 23:05:17 oerjan: i know your bias on that matter. 23:05:26 fungot: LIES 23:05:26 oerjan: probably it has its own user 23:05:27 oerjan: cwcc has *nothing* to do with lambda that you can't see them being that 23:05:55 fungot: help 23:05:55 newsham: the problem with doing complex numbers is disguising them so the user gets a frob, which is a bad idea 23:06:00 ^help 23:06:01 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 23:06:13 I dont see ^source in that list 23:06:24 ^show 23:06:24 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord 23:06:39 It's a user-defined thing. 23:06:46 ^show source 23:06:46 (http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S 23:07:23 looks like a much more closed system than !c :) 23:07:36 oerjan: It runs under its own user and chrooted into a mostly-empty directory tree, but it's not sandboxed more than that. (Well, it also runs on a vserver container and the root of that is a lvm snapshot, but that's more of a disaster recovery thing than a sandbox.) 23:07:39 `run echo hi >foo.c 2>&1 23:07:40 No output. 23:07:42 `run gcc foo.c 2>&1 23:07:44 foo.c:1: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' at end of input 23:07:55 newsham: With HackEgo you can even `fetch whole Linux binaries from the interwebs :P 23:07:56 `rm foo.c 23:07:58 No output. 23:08:08 `id 23:08:10 uid=1939537 gid=1939537 23:08:14 elliott: You're helpin' me so much here :P 23:08:19 Mind you, if you use syscalls, all you see is a chroot, empty except for the Plash libc, which you don't have permissions to modify :) 23:08:33 `echo `ls -1 /etc` 23:08:34 And if you use the libc, you have to break Plash, which works entirely over a socket... 23:08:34 `ls -1 /etc` 23:08:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:08:40 newsham: `run for full sh 23:08:47 `run echo `ls -1 /etc` 23:08:49 alternatives 23:08:57 `run echo `ls -1 /etc` | tr '\n' '\' 23:08:59 alternatives\ 23:09:07 huh 23:09:10 oh right 23:09:13 /etc is literally almost empty 23:09:14 the echo would get rid of the \n's by iself 23:09:15 `run ls /bin 23:09:17 bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ ln \ login \ ls \ lsmod 23:09:20 newsham: no need ^ 23:09:26 cool. 23:09:44 `lsmod 23:09:45 Module Size Used by \ tcp_diag 880 0 \ ipmi_watchdog 12737 0 \ ipmi_msghandler 26634 1 ipmi_watchdog \ fuse 50908 1 \ inet_diag 6914 1 tcp_diag \ ip6table_filter 2384 1 \ ip6_tables 15075 1 ip6table_filter \ act_police 23:13:24 `nc 72.235.201.4 1104 23:13:25 No output. 23:14:02 -!- augur has joined. 23:14:07 fungot: why do you reside in a subrepo can't be seen by users, never when they also are not see the way through. practical 23:14:07 cpressey: has anyone tried to use something like ( list 1 2 3) 23:14:21 `run echo hi | nc 72.235.201.4 1104 23:14:25 hi there from newsh 23:14:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:15:01 Only a matter of time before Gregor's secret stash of donkey porn is uncovered. 23:15:07 `run echo hi | nc 72.235.201.4 1104 23:15:09 ^help 23:15:24 bots explicitely ignore one another? 23:15:31 Well, some of them. 23:15:34 ^ignore 23:15:34 ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot)! 23:15:36 IIRC HackEgo listens to anyone. OR did until recently. 23:15:43 fungot: I'm pretty sure someone somewhere has used (list 1 2 3) 23:15:43 fizzie: going home, bbl, thanks for the tip. this file has two ports in and out 23:15:43 !sh echo '`echo hi' 23:15:46 `echo hi 23:15:48 hi 23:16:02 newsham: lambdabot also listens to pretty much anyone :) 23:16:34 hilarty ensues 23:16:43 cpressey: impressive, you were less coherent than fungot's answer 23:16:43 oerjan: is that it can evaluate a sexpr based on that premise. 23:16:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: need to go try to use something like (list 1 2 3) now). 23:17:00 i've made two lambdabots squawk at eachother before 23:17:15 i got fungot and lambdabot into a bot loop 23:17:15 elliott: can you use pastebin or just /msg please unplug your computer" 23:17:15 ?so what 23:17:16 what not available 23:17:23 ?so ^ul (hello)S 23:17:23 ^ul (hello)S not available 23:17:23 hello ...bad insn! 23:17:24 `ping6 www.kame.net 23:17:26 No output. 23:17:31 the obvious underload quining followed 23:17:42 newsham: i don't think Gregor has got ipv6 set up at prgmr :) 23:17:46 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:17:49 doesnt seem 23:17:53 Got firewalling working again. 23:17:54 WHOOPS 23:17:59 Accidentally pasted there! 23:18:46 bots explicitely ignore one another? <-- here in this channel, we tend to add ignores to new bot pairs shortly after the inevitable mutual quine is made :) 23:19:20 not really :) 23:19:28 the bot ignoring stuff is a new thing pioneered by fizzie "fascist" fizzie 23:19:37 EgoBot just does it too because Gregor is boring or something 23:19:47 ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)! 23:19:47 OK. 23:19:50 ok so that's 75% of bots that matter here. 23:19:57 fizzie: YOU ARE SO BORING OMG 23:20:14 um i'm pretty sure the quine loops are the reason for doing so, anyhow 23:20:18 I wish I had a nickname as cool as fizzie "fascist" fizzie :( 23:20:26 If you alreadyd did it, it's no longer novel. 23:20:30 fizzie: hey NO FUN ADDING THEM BEFORE THE QUINE ATTEMPT 23:20:56 oerjan: Apparently it's been done. 23:21:14 Gregor "Grotesque" Gregor 23:21:16 It has, yes. 23:21:17 I did it. 23:21:22 It's actually Gregor "Gay" Gregor. 23:21:30 The worst nickname. 23:21:54 I apparently have no surname. 23:22:18 yes you do 23:22:21 Richards 23:22:29 which classically nicknames to "Dicks" 23:22:40 Gregor "Gay Dicks" Richards 23:22:45 Everyone's surname is their nickname for the purpose of QUOTEMIDDLENAMENOMICERS. 23:22:49 Nomicers. That's not a word. 23:22:56 fizzie: ah i didn't see elliott's mention above 23:23:02 Well at least my first name isn't the same as my father's, Harry. 23:23:33 I apparently have no surname. <-- well i was going by the fizzie "fascist" fizzie pattern 23:23:44 coppro: I KNOW YOUR MIDDLE NAMES 23:24:17 Elliott "I Farted Loudly For Attention But Nobody" Hird 23:24:26 `run (printf "user abcbot3 1 1 abcbot3\nnick abcbot3\njoin #esoteric\nprivmsg #esteric :hi there\nquit"; sleep 9)|nc irc.freenode.net 6667 23:24:36 No output. 23:24:40 bummer. 23:24:42 newsham: Gregor fixed firewalling, like he said :P 23:24:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:24:52 sorry, missed that 23:24:54 Only `fetch will work now, which is just HTTP GET 23:25:22 `fetch http://thenewsh.com:4444/test/url 23:25:23 wget: unable to resolve host address `thenewsh.com' 23:25:34 `fetch http://www.thenewsh.com:4444/test/url 23:25:35 wget: unable to resolve host address `www.thenewsh.com' 23:25:38 hrm. 23:25:46 Gregor: you broke it 23:26:18 hi whoever fetched with chrome 23:27:06 that was nobody, especially not me 23:27:18 I was quite disappointed at the lack of e.g. page 23:27:30 i cant type that fast 23:28:01 maybe you should get a computer to do it for you :) 23:28:03 elliott: ohgawd 23:28:15 (also yes, that was a mistaken email, but it's not like I really care) 23:28:15 got one, but in this case i was using netcat to view headers 23:28:21 Gregor: does `fetch go via another user or is the HTTP port generally open? 23:28:23 you can fail to stalk me on facebook now! 23:28:29 coppro: sure thing, christopher sherwood! 23:28:46 oerjan: it's outside the chroot IIRC 23:29:27 coppro: your 8th result on google is "List of HIV-positive people", Wikipedia 23:29:28 elliott: erm you can do `fetch inside other commands in HackEgo 23:29:31 thought you should know 23:29:35 oerjan: no, you can't 23:29:36 `run which fetch 23:29:38 No output. 23:29:38 elliott: muhahahah 23:29:56 `ls bin/ 23:29:57 addquote \ allquotes \ botsnack \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ delquote \ esolang \ etymology \ fuck \ google \ imdb \ json \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ penis \ ping \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ rungcc \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate 23:30:08 elliott: also, not for me 23:30:08 `cat bin/translate 23:30:10 #!/bin/bash \ exec translatefromto "auto en $1" 23:30:15 `cat bin/translatefromto 23:30:15 `cat bin/translatefromto 23:30:17 #!/bin/bash \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \ 23:30:17 it uses the proxy 23:30:18 #!/bin/bash \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \ 23:30:22 it uses the proxy :) 23:30:24 `url bin/minifind 23:30:25 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/minifind 23:30:31 coppro: obviously a personal deficiency of yours 23:30:52 elliott: oh it connects to itself 23:30:54 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/minifind ;; wat 23:30:58 `file bin/json 23:30:59 bin/json: a python script text executable 23:31:02 -!- oklopol has quit. 23:31:08 `url bin/json 23:31:09 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/json 23:31:12 elliott: well anyhow that's not "just `fetch" 23:31:32 oerjan: well sure. 23:31:48 `url bin/wl 23:31:49 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wl 23:31:53 `json "1+1" 23:31:55 No output. 23:32:18 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/json sure is weird 23:32:35 `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'data["x"]' 23:32:37 No output. 23:32:39 hm 23:32:39 `run echo '"1+1"'|json echo 23:32:41 No output. 23:32:47 echo is python? :) 23:32:56 oh right, eval. 23:32:57 `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'data' 23:32:58 No output. 23:33:01 wtf? 23:33:04 `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'data' 2>&1 23:33:06 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.3690/bin/json", line 5, in \ print eval(sys.argv[1]).encode('utf-8') \ AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'encode' 23:33:10 oh 23:33:13 `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'repr(data)' 23:33:15 {u'x': 3} 23:33:26 `grep json bin/ 23:33:27 No output. 23:33:30 `run grep -r json bin/ 23:33:31 bin/json:import json \ bin/json:data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ bin/translatefromto: json 'data["responseData"]["translatedText"]' \ bin/wl:import json \ bin/wl: url = 'http://%s.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?format=json&action=query&' \ \ bin/wl: return json.loads(response) 23:33:36 `run grep -r json bin/ | patse 23:33:37 No output. 23:33:38 `run grep -r json bin/ | paste 23:33:39 grr 23:33:40 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24593 23:33:49 ah, so translatefromto uses it. 23:33:53 wait... didn't I write translatefromto? 23:33:59 `url bin/translatefromto 23:34:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/translatefromto 23:34:02 coppro: sure thing, christopher sherwood! <-- robin christopher sherwood forrest? 23:34:03 json would be a lot more useful if nc worked :) 23:34:05 hmm, no 23:34:19 newsham: well wget does with the right params :) 23:34:22 or any http fetcher 23:34:29 thus the translate family, and wl 23:34:42 `curl http://www.google.com/ 23:34:49 `run which curl 23:34:51 /usr/bin/curl 23:34:54 huh 23:34:55 oh 23:34:59 `run curl -e http://codu.org google.com 23:35:31 huh 23:36:22 -!- cheater- has joined. 23:37:20 ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved