19:55:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
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19:55:51 <ajf> SET A TO (insert ascii code for / here)
19:55:54 <Lymia> Can you say SET [ascii code of A] TO [ascii code of A]
19:55:57 <ajf> PUT ZA
19:56:03 <ajf> would be read as
19:56:06 <ajf> "PUT Z/"
19:56:23 <ajf> Lymia: yes, and that has no effect
19:56:31 <Lymia> ajf, what if A is already rebound?
19:56:39 <Lymia> That would allow you to reset A to A, correct?
19:56:40 <ajf> well
19:56:43 <ajf> no.
19:56:49 <ajf> If A has been bound to, say, Z
19:56:57 <ajf> "SET A TO A" is read as "SET Z TO Z"
19:57:15 <ajf> Please see the code block at the end of here: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator#Fundamentals
19:57:34 <Lymia> SET SIXTYFIVE TO SIXTYFIVE
19:57:36 <Lymia> Would that work?
19:57:41 <Lymia> (65=ascii code of A)
19:57:44 <ajf> ah, yes
19:57:52 <ajf> it would
19:59:50 <Lymia> And newlines are only split once?
20:00:35 <Lymia> What's the maximum value a variable can store?
20:00:36 <Lymia> 255?
20:01:07 <ajf> Yes, 8-bit
20:01:11 <ajf> As it works on ASCII
20:01:37 <Lymia> TWOHUNDREDTHIRTYONE < syntax looks like that?
20:01:52 <ajf> TWOHUNDREDANDTHIRTYONE
20:01:58 <ajf> I'm not American :P
20:02:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:02:18 <Lymia> :V
20:02:40 <ajf> also
20:02:50 <ajf> that makes writing eval hard
20:02:55 <ajf> 26 chars is not a lot
20:03:01 <ajf> and you can't use all of them...
20:03:11 <ajf> unless you only want to use it once
20:05:32 <Lymia> Guh.
20:05:40 <Lymia> Your NOP makes me want to cry.
20:05:46 <ajf> Lymia
20:05:52 <ajf> If you need a NOP
20:05:56 <ajf> there's something much easier
20:06:02 <ajf> It's "/"
20:06:17 <Lymia> I'm trying to figure out how to compile the language.
20:06:17 <Lymia> =p
20:06:25 <ajf> Lymia: Give up already
20:06:27 <ajf> :P
20:06:28 <Lymia> ajf, no.
20:06:39 <ajf> also
20:06:49 <ajf> What I said about only splitting lines once
20:06:56 <ajf> That's just my flawed interpreter
20:07:14 <Lymia> It is the reference.
20:07:15 <ajf> If you did things "right", you wouldn't split at the start
20:07:20 <ajf> Eh I guess
20:08:07 <Lymia> ajf.
20:08:17 <Lymia> It'd be a bigger challenge to compile it than to write it.
20:08:21 <Lymia> And I like challenges.
20:08:27 <ajf> haha
20:08:31 <ajf> OK
20:08:41 <ajf> I challenge you to implement a C compiler in DevPerc
20:08:46 <ajf> Or even better
20:08:53 <ajf> A devperc interpreter in devperc
20:08:56 <ajf> or EVEN BETTER
20:09:02 <ajf> a compiler for devperc in devperc
20:09:03 <ajf> :D
20:11:05 <Lymia> ajf.
20:11:18 <Lymia> You could compile to x86, if you write evil self-modifying code I bet.
20:11:28 <ajf> hmm
20:11:36 <ajf> OK, go ahead. compile it.
20:14:22 <Cheery> yay. now I've got regexes that can parse it.
20:14:40 <Cheery> yet needing little bit of things..
20:14:41 <ajf> Cheery: parse what?
20:14:48 <Cheery> command language
20:14:52 <Lymia> ajf, simplest solution would be the following:
20:15:06 <ajf> inb4 "calculate how it would change, in advance"
20:15:08 <Lymia> 1. have a writable code segment, with each command taking up a constant space, padded with NOPS
20:15:09 <ajf> or
20:15:12 <Lymia> 2. store the source code
20:15:27 <ajf> >store the source code
20:15:28 <Lymia> 3. calculate which variables affect which lines
20:15:31 <ajf> >store the source code
20:15:33 <ajf> >store the source code
20:15:54 <Lymia> 4. when a variable is changed, recompile all affected lines
20:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> "New York officials disagreed, and in January 2007 issued regulations that would prohibit shocking New York students for minor infractions. But a group of New York parents filed a federal lawsuit to stop the state from enforcing these regulations."
20:16:08 <ajf> hey Lymia
20:16:11 <ajf> that's not compiled
20:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> OK humanity seriously what is wrong with us.
20:16:27 <ajf> that's a JIT
20:16:39 <Lymia> ajf, failing that, you could do what you suggested.
20:16:51 <ajf> "Give up "?
20:17:04 <Lymia> "calculate how it would change, in advance"
20:17:22 <ajf> yes
20:17:23 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: If teachers can't shock our kids, WHO WILL?
20:17:24 <ajf> but
20:17:40 <ajf> that's impossible if I use the GET command
20:17:47 <ajf> as you do not know what the input will be
20:18:05 <Lymia> But you know what variables GET could be used on.
20:20:56 <ajf> yes, but why does that matter?
20:21:16 <ajf> the input could change how the code executes.
20:21:36 <ajf> You CAN'T compile this:
20:21:45 <Lymia> ajf, how exactly does PERCOLATE WHILE X/CIRCULATE work?
20:22:00 <ajf> er
20:22:07 <ajf> like the while statement in a program?
20:22:13 <ajf> er, in any other language
20:22:17 <Lymia> So, wait.
20:22:27 <Lymia> Those have to be matched, right?
20:22:33 <ajf> correct.
20:23:01 <Lymia> What happens if they become mismatched by the variables in question being changed.
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20:23:12 <Lymia> To the commands look for their counterparts?
20:23:14 <Lymia> Do*
20:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit what happened to elliott.
20:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god Freenode staff.
20:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> EVERYONE HIDE THE DRUGS
20:24:10 <ajf> Lymia: hmm
20:24:41 <ajf> I have a great idea
20:24:58 <ajf> as I can't think of whether to look for counterparts or remember line number
20:25:11 <ajf> I will remove that statement.
20:25:27 <ajf> It also makes the language even smaller :D
20:27:46 <Lymia> So.
20:28:26 <Lymia> If you encounter a variable that's not A-Z, space, or / in a statement, it's a syntax error, right?
20:28:41 <ajf> that's correct
20:28:50 <ajf> or \n, in a good interpreter
20:29:02 <Lymia> Oh well.
20:29:07 <ajf> oh and also
20:29:11 <ajf> the PUT statement
20:29:15 <Lymia> I'll see if I can figure out how to compile the language once you release a reference.
20:29:26 <ajf> and DEFINE statement
20:29:27 * pikhq is probably completely and utterly crazy: autoconf + tup, away!
20:29:31 <ajf> and GET statement
20:29:44 <ajf> well actually any expression where you use a variable name
20:30:11 <ajf> it takes the value of that variable, then finds the variable named with that value
20:30:25 <Lymia> So.
20:30:29 <ajf> although I figure you guessed that already
20:30:33 <Lymia> DEFINE A PLUS ONE TO A?
20:30:52 <Lymia> Does that work?
20:31:15 <Lymia> ajf, um.
20:31:17 <Lymia> So....
20:31:18 <ajf> yes
20:31:22 <ajf> it does.
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20:31:24 <Lymia> What happens if you write PUT $
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20:31:37 <ajf> syntax error.
20:31:41 <Gregor> Lymia: You're banned from my bots.
20:31:44 <Gregor> For, like, all eternity.
20:31:45 <Gregor> Ever.
20:31:48 <Lymia> Gregor, k.
20:31:48 <ajf> If you said PUT A
20:31:59 <Lymia> But you can bind A to, say, $, correct?
20:32:00 <Lymia> So.
20:32:00 <ajf> and A was defined as the ascii code for $, it would output $
20:32:14 <ajf> Lymia: so you would need to do something like this:
20:32:21 <Lymia> ajf, so.
20:32:23 <Lymia> How does that work.
20:32:30 <Lymia> When the line is first read, A would be replaced with '$'
20:32:41 <Lymia> Making the statement "PUT $" which would be a syntax error.
20:32:42 <ajf> correct.
20:32:42 <ajf> So
20:32:46 <ajf> you would need to do this:
20:32:51 <ajf> DEFINE B TO A
20:32:59 <ajf> DEFINE A TO (ascii code for $ here)
20:33:01 <ajf> PUT B
20:33:09 <Lymia> Ah.
20:33:12 <Lymia> Replacements arn't recursive?
20:33:18 <ajf> Eh?
20:33:33 <Lymia> That's helpful.
20:33:53 <ajf> hey, I thought the code block at the end of Fundamentals would have already made that clear
20:34:20 <Lymia> ajf, unmarked line numbers, and a line number based jump?
20:34:20 <Lymia> Hate.
20:34:32 <ajf> yes.
20:34:40 <ajf> umarked line numbers.
20:34:44 <ajf> because I hate you all.
20:34:54 <ajf> also makes compiling hard
20:34:59 <ajf> if you inserted a newline
20:35:00 <Lymia> A line number based jump when, according to you, a good interpreter is supposed to allow setting to new line to work/
20:35:05 <ajf> trollface.jpg
20:35:11 <ajf> Lymia: yep.
20:35:30 <Lymia> Let's do what the reference does~
20:35:31 <Lymia> =3
20:35:35 <ajf> A good interpreter, by the way, shouldn't split the lines when it starts
20:35:39 <ajf> mine does, but that will change
20:35:47 <ajf> yes I'm warning you
20:36:02 <ajf> It *will* read char by char until encountering a newline
20:36:12 <ajf> trollface.jpg
20:36:23 <Lymia> So how are you planning on implementing GOTO.
20:36:35 <ajf> counting newlines
20:39:06 <Cheery> whee! my parser runs. :)
20:40:34 <Cheery> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/384801
20:40:42 <ajf> OK, now that I stopped being distracted by you, Lymia, I am actually working on expression parsing
20:40:46 <ajf> not commands, expressions
20:40:57 <ajf> e.g. "TWO TIMES FOUR"
20:44:36 <Cheery> little bug there. fixed.
20:44:48 <Cheery> now I can go rampage.
20:47:38 <Cheery> I sort of wonder why there aren't assembly languages that do something similar.
20:47:59 <ajf> woo
20:48:05 <ajf> expression parsing works
20:48:08 <Cheery> I mean.. sort of concise syntax that behaves like madbollocks.
20:51:49 <Lymia> ajf, well.
20:52:02 <Lymia> I have kind of an idea how to do it, but no idea how to do it efficiently.
20:52:29 <ajf> OK.
20:52:37 <Lymia> ajf, so, there are only so many permutations of word lengths that are valid, right?
20:52:59 <Lymia> And for each of those permutations, there are only a few commands that fit.
20:53:18 <Lymia> So, take a string, and find all valid ways to split the string into these valid permutations.
20:53:32 <Lymia> Compile each of these, and generate a block of code that selects the correct one, or errors.
20:54:03 <pikhq> Hmm. It is surprisingly *easy* to make tup and autoconf cooperate.
20:54:28 <Lymia> The only remaining challenge is PROCEED TO.
20:55:55 <ajf> hmm
20:56:10 <Lymia> At the start, strip out all existing comments.
20:56:23 <ajf> Lymia: As much as you are sure you can compile this
20:56:26 <ajf> I sincerley doubt it
20:56:29 <Lymia> And split according to new liens, as new lines cannot be destroyed.
20:56:31 <ajf> But good luck.
20:56:39 <Lymia> lines*
20:58:38 <Lymia> ajf, there's nothing stopping you, if you're willing to accept huge executable and long compile time.
20:59:13 <Lymia> ajf, uh, wait.
20:59:26 <Lymia> A program can only be 256 lines total then?
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20:59:33 <ajf> Uhh
20:59:40 <ajf> Um
20:59:47 <ajf> Yes, now that you mention it
21:00:07 <Lymia> Or is it that GOTO only reaches through 256 lines?
21:00:16 <ajf> Hmm
21:00:23 <ajf> Yes, it would only go to line 255
21:00:29 <ajf> (counting from 0)
21:00:39 <ajf> although
21:00:50 <ajf> it's futile writing a program that long in this stupid language
21:01:20 <Lymia> ajf, it'd be a good challenge to see if I can get something compiling.
21:01:31 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> http://motherjones.com/politics/2007/08/school-shock?page=6
21:01:49 <Lymia> Any reason to have that NOP?
21:02:01 <ajf> none, really
21:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> OK this is seriously like something out of a dystopian novel.
21:02:19 <ajf> let's remove it
21:02:46 <Lymia> PUT A TO STDIO isn't part of Commands.
21:02:48 <ajf> removed
21:02:51 <ajf> uhh
21:02:52 <Lymia> In particular, the TO X part.
21:02:58 <ajf> ah
21:03:02 <ajf> I changed it recently
21:03:16 <ajf> realising, as it's for UNIX, I don't need TO FILE
21:03:47 <ajf> fixed.
21:04:12 <ajf> Maybe I should use # instead of /
21:04:13 <ajf> meh.
21:06:23 <Lymia> All (valid) commands are enumerable, right?
21:06:53 <Lymia> ajf, quick question.
21:06:58 <Lymia> Is A PLUS RANDOM valid?
21:07:14 <ajf> yes.
21:07:17 <ajf> wait
21:07:26 <ajf> er
21:07:45 <ajf> although you "can't" nest expressions, you can actually nest RANDOM
21:07:56 <ajf> due to the stupid way I am implementing this
21:08:02 <Lymia> So.
21:08:06 <Lymia> Random is in essence a value.
21:08:13 <ajf> No, it's an expression
21:08:38 <ajf> You "can't" nest expressions because I limited max length to 3
21:08:47 <ajf> makes parsing easier
21:09:47 <ajf> I don't want to implement order of operations, basically
21:10:38 * Sgeo does something stupid
21:11:11 <cheater53> sup sgeo
21:11:19 <Sgeo> <insert comment about doing someone stupid>
21:11:31 <cheater53> what are you doing that is so stupid, Sgeo?
21:11:35 * ajf thinks Sgeo is stupid because he did something stupid
21:12:01 * cheater53 thinks Sgeo is smart
21:12:04 <Sgeo> cheater53, texting someone who.. likes me, I think, but I'm not so sure that I like her
21:12:06 <Cheery> wee.. again lost my cockfile but fixed it this time.
21:12:22 <cheater53> Sgeo, why would you not like her?
21:13:07 <Sgeo> Besides her .. not being so bright, perhaps, at least when it comes to programming... I think she smokes. She kissed me (near, but not on the lips) and then I smelled smoke
21:13:19 <Sgeo> Then again, there were a lot of people around, maybe one of them was smoking before
21:13:57 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:14:03 -!- hiato has joined.
21:14:11 <cheater53> smoking is a good reason to be put off
21:14:13 <Lymia> ajf, so.
21:14:24 <cheater53> but you know what they say
21:14:25 <Lymia> In essence, there are 26+256+1 possible values, right?
21:14:27 <cheater53> if she smokes, she pokes
21:14:40 <tswett> So if she doesn't poke, she doesn't smoke?
21:14:45 <cheater53> just ask her if she's a smoker
21:14:50 <ajf> Lymia: eh?
21:14:51 <cheater53> and then tell her you are not
21:14:56 <ajf> there are 256
21:15:00 <Lymia> I mean.
21:15:00 <cheater53> she'll keep brushing her teeth and you'll be comfortable.
21:15:02 <Lymia> Possible expressions.
21:15:11 <ajf> uhh
21:15:16 <Sgeo> I can't figure out how "she pokes" can be a euphemism for anything other than her being male
21:15:18 <Lymia> The variables, RANDOM, and constants.
21:15:18 <cheater53> or she won't, and you'll have more of a reason to believe she doesn't care about you.
21:15:32 <ajf> Lymia: and expressions...
21:15:39 <ajf> X EQUALS Y
21:15:43 <Lymia> I know.
21:15:43 <cheater53> Sgeo, "pokes herself with male organs"
21:15:48 <ajf> oh, ok
21:16:04 <Cheery> okay.. maybe that never gets old
21:16:09 <Sgeo> Ah
21:16:19 <Cheery> I'm fine with my cockfiles ^^
21:16:24 <cheater53> Sgeo, just confront her with it if it bothers you so much :p
21:17:00 <Lymia> So.
21:17:03 <Lymia> 560906 possible expressions?
21:17:20 <Lymia> a = 26+256+1
21:17:26 <Lymia> a+(a*a)*7
21:18:25 <cheater53> can a language with a finite number of expressions be TC?
21:18:41 <ais523> cheater53: sure
21:18:54 <ais523> asm has only a finite number of expressions, and it's TC if you use bignums
21:19:09 <cheater53> right, but asm can address any address
21:19:26 <Sgeo> What about BF?
21:19:30 <ais523> even if you just limit it to a finite set of registers, it's still TC with bignums with program counter and two general-purpose
21:19:39 <cheater53> that makes it an infinite number of expressions in fact
21:19:43 <cheater53> aha
21:19:44 <cheater53> ok
21:19:50 <ajf> Lymia: why do you care about the number possible?
21:19:56 <Lymia> ajf, just curious.
21:20:04 <cheater53> Sgeo, i dunno if you can say bf has a finite number of expressions?
21:20:12 <Lymia> So, then.
21:20:13 <ajf> there are a lot of possible expressions.
21:20:15 <ajf> A LOT.
21:20:22 <Lymia> 2 two expression commands, 2 one expression commands.
21:20:25 <cheater53> ais523, can a language with a finite number of programs be TC?
21:20:33 <ajf> Lymia: no
21:20:41 <ais523> cheater53: IMO yes, although that's a definitional problem
21:20:44 <ajf> wait
21:20:45 <ajf> yes
21:20:48 <cheater53> why?
21:20:49 * pikhq is surprised at how autoconf + tup is actually *not* horrific
21:20:53 <ais523> I think that if the only avilable program was a BF interp, for instance, I'd call a language TC
21:21:09 <pikhq> Seriously, you just have autoconf generate the tup.config and... That's it.
21:21:10 <cheater53> yeah, that's what i was thinking
21:21:13 <Sgeo> Dang it
21:21:20 <Sgeo> Why can't I find that thing before ais523 does?
21:21:23 <ais523> or if the only program output a list of all halting BF programs and their outputs, in order of the number of cycles they take to halt plus their length
21:21:33 <ais523> (this is possible computably)
21:21:41 <cheater53> but the question is if we include the programs run in that interpreter as sub-programs of the main program
21:21:42 * Sgeo surrenders
21:21:48 <Lymia> So.
21:21:53 <Lymia> 629232203484 possible commands, if I didn't mess up.
21:21:54 <cheater53> and also, i thought of that too "program that lists all programs"
21:22:04 <ajf> Lymia: stop it
21:22:05 <ajf> please
21:22:08 <cheater53> but then the question is if it just lists them
21:22:14 <Lymia> ajf, why?
21:22:20 <cheater53> but it doesn't interpret them..
21:22:24 <cheater53> is it TC?
21:22:33 <Sgeo> ais523, how could that be possible... oh, threading? And given infinite time, would also output nonhalters?
21:22:38 <ajf> this is stupid
21:22:51 <ais523> Sgeo: it wouldn't output nonhalters after any finite amount of time
21:22:55 <cheater53> Sgeo, to output all halting programs you'd need infinite time.
21:22:59 <ais523> and talking about "infinite time" doesn't really make sense
21:23:02 <ajf> well
21:23:05 <ajf> let's see
21:23:07 <ais523> and doesn't need threading, you can just alternate cycles
21:23:20 <ais523> to simulate something that works a bit like threading
21:23:39 <cheater53> Sgeo, just consider the programs "print $k" for k \in N
21:23:43 <ajf> possible expressions: (256*256)*7+1
21:23:53 <cheater53> you need an infinite amount of time to output all of them
21:24:50 <ajf> possible commands: 2*(256^2*7+1)^2+2*(256^2*7+1)
21:24:56 <ajf> In DevPerc
21:26:01 <ajf> so that's 420909547524 possible commands
21:26:11 <ajf> wait no I didn't factor in all possible expresions
21:26:13 <ajf> uhh
21:26:43 <ajf> possible expressions would actually be: (256*256)*7+1+256
21:27:09 <ajf> so possible expressions is E, which is 459009
21:27:29 <ajf> possible commands is C, which is 2E^2+2E
21:28:03 <ajf> which is 421379442180 possible commands
21:28:05 <ajf> wow.
21:28:13 <ajf> Lymia: do I win
21:28:46 <Lymia> Let's find out.
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21:31:31 <Lymia> ajf, ah, you'd likely need to use an interpreter for commands that look like "QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM"
21:31:52 <ajf> ?
21:32:03 -!- d42nk has left.
21:33:04 <elliott_> ok that's two new names
21:33:15 <elliott_> where are these people coming from :D
21:33:21 <Lymia> Me?
21:33:23 <Lymia> New?
21:33:33 <ajf> me?
21:33:41 <elliott_> no ajf and d42nk :)
21:34:18 <cheater53> and kuraj
21:36:14 <Cheery> lol. that later was just some weirdo
21:38:33 <elliott_> it's an influx :P
21:40:51 <pikhq> elliott_: Y'know, a freaking shell script is better than make for most intents and purposes.
21:41:14 <ajf> Lymia: so uh
21:41:20 <ajf> my reference interpreter
21:41:26 <ajf> now never splits line
21:41:28 <ajf> :>
21:41:31 <Lymia> :>
21:41:33 <ajf> you can insert \ns
21:41:38 <elliott_> :>
21:41:40 <ajf> in other words
21:41:47 <ajf> I made compilation even harder :D
21:41:52 <ajf> pikhq: lies
21:42:00 <ajf> make makes dependencies easier
21:42:13 <ajf> and makefiles are really easy to make
21:42:23 <pikhq> Make as used by most people fucks up dependencies.
21:42:43 <ajf> hn?
21:42:49 <ajf> hm?*
21:43:14 <pikhq> ajf: How many people explicitly list the headers each file depends upon?
21:43:18 <Lymia> ajf, mmm....
21:43:37 <Lymia> Considering that you could just put every letter in a row, and force the compiler to compile for every single possible command.
21:43:42 <Lymia> ...
21:43:43 <Lymia> Actually...
21:44:30 <Lymia> ajf, mmm...
21:44:44 <ajf> pikhq: I do.
21:44:49 <ajf> That's why I use a makefile...
21:44:49 <Lymia> I'll make a program to compile what it can, and use an interpreter for the rest.
21:44:57 <ajf> So I can build zlib before my server
21:45:52 <ajf> Lymia: cheating :P
21:45:57 <pikhq> I prefer actually intelligent build systems, personally.
21:46:06 <Lymia> Later, figure out what do about evil evil statements like "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"
21:46:15 <ajf> Lymia: I removed that...
21:46:22 <Lymia> ajf, it still works if you insert /s
21:46:34 <Lymia> Just in a different way.
21:46:35 <ajf> True.
21:46:38 <ajf> If A is /
21:48:15 <Lymia> You could rewrite that into something like "DEFINE A TO B/OPQRSTUVWXYZ" right?
21:48:40 <ajf> yup.
21:50:48 <Lymia> ajf, you can certainly compile it-- and you can argue that the result isn't compiled at all anyways.
21:51:28 <ajf> eh
21:51:32 <ajf> well
21:51:42 <ajf> you could write a JIT for this... sortof
21:51:57 <ajf> well, you CAN write a JIT for this. definitely
21:52:44 <Lymia> No matter what, for some statements, the end result will have to be aware of the syntax to some degree.
21:55:47 <ajf> Obviously.
21:56:23 <Lymia> When will you release the reference?
21:56:35 <ajf> When I finish it :P
21:56:53 <Lymia> Are you trying to be beat to the punch or something?
21:57:30 <ajf> eh?
21:57:40 <ajf> Nah
21:57:42 <Lymia> The language isn't that complex.
21:57:47 <ajf> sure.
21:57:52 <zzo38> pikhq: I find shell scripts work too, I don't use make for my own projects.
21:58:04 <ajf> Hey, I only started two hours ago
21:58:11 <Lymia> =p
21:58:32 <ajf> ...and defined the language over half a year ago
21:58:37 <Lymia> ajf.
21:58:40 <Lymia> Here's what I'm thinking.
21:58:46 <Lymia> Take the statement DEFINE A AS B
21:58:49 <Lymia> TO*
21:59:03 <Lymia> What could you actually manage to redefine that to, which is still valid syntax?
21:59:13 <ajf> this.
21:59:35 <ajf> GET A/
21:59:35 <Lymia> PUT X/ or GET X/ right?
21:59:42 <Lymia> ajf, how are trailing slashes handled?
21:59:45 <Lymia> Erm.
21:59:46 <ajf> trailing?
21:59:48 <Lymia> Trailing spaces.
21:59:54 <Lymia> Ignored?
21:59:55 <ajf> not ignored.
21:59:59 <Lymia> Invalid?
22:00:01 <ajf> GET A / is invalid
22:00:04 <ajf> GET A/ is valid
22:00:06 <Lymia> No, I mean.
22:00:06 <zzo38> Do you know how to work ligatures with FreeType?
22:00:13 <Lymia> GET A with a space after it, then a new line.
22:00:14 <Lymia> That's invalid?
22:00:21 <Cheery> having porperly working editor is a bless.
22:00:22 <ajf> correct.
22:00:54 <ajf> unlike some people, I take whitespace seriously
22:00:55 <ajf> :P
22:01:09 <Lymia> ajf, compilation is only really annoying for statements where there are huge blobs of letters.
22:01:25 <Lymia> i.e. constant statements and such
22:01:38 <ajf> look, Lymia
22:01:44 <ajf> this language cannot be truly compiled
22:01:55 <Lymia> ajf, define "compiled" and I'll respond.
22:02:14 <ajf> compiled directly to machine code, without needing the source code to run
22:02:19 <Lymia> k
22:02:36 <ajf> and still executing in every single possible scenario the interpreted version would
22:02:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:54 <zzo38> I cannot see anything in FreeType documentatino about retrieving ligature information.
22:05:01 <ajf> zzo38: ?
22:05:06 <ajf> this is #esoteric
22:05:13 <ajf> does this matter for your language?
22:05:32 <Lymia> ajf, well.
22:05:35 <Lymia> Let's see about that.
22:05:35 <Lymia> =)
22:05:54 <Lymia> How long until you get the reference done?
22:06:09 <ajf> not very.
22:06:14 <ajf> stop distracting me :V
22:06:28 <ajf> all expressions are done, only one command so far
22:09:05 <Cheery> I'm just sad I couldn't do proper nodeexprs to handle stuff with even something more than just chains.
22:09:21 <Cheery> well.. something to do some next time :)
22:09:52 <zzo38> ajf: No but I cannot find a channel for FreeType, I will try a different one maybe
22:10:12 <ajf> ok.
22:12:03 <ajf> well
22:12:09 <ajf> I would suggest some other channel
22:12:52 <zzo38> Which one?
22:13:06 <ajf> Just
22:13:15 <ajf> I don't know, one related to fonts
22:13:42 <zzo38> I would like to know which one that would be?
22:13:46 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:14:02 <zzo38> Is ##fonts correct one?
22:14:13 <ajf> I would try.
22:14:36 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:17:17 <elliott_> Games are now officially recognized by the U.S. Government as art. About damn time. (escapistmagazine.com)
22:17:17 <elliott_> "about damn time"?...
22:17:44 <elliott_> Of course games have huge artistic potential, but even I don't think calling them "art" is a certain thing.
22:17:45 <Lymia> *sigh*
22:17:50 <Lymia> The games and arts debate.
22:17:50 <elliott_> I guess it depends on DEFINISHONS
22:17:53 <elliott_> I know.
22:17:56 <elliott_> It's the worst of debates.
22:18:04 <ajf> "DEFINISHONS"
22:18:06 <ajf> hm
22:18:09 <Lymia> I can say this.
22:18:14 <ajf> If I wanted to engrishize it
22:18:16 <elliott_> ajf: You may define that word how you like.
22:18:19 <Lymia> Some games are definitely art.
22:18:22 <Lymia> Saying all games are that is...
22:18:24 <ajf> I'd say DEFINISHONSU
22:18:48 <Lymia> ...risky...
22:18:52 <ajf> yes.
22:18:56 <ajf> but I would argue
22:19:01 <ajf> not all paintings are art
22:19:12 <ajf> If I draw a picture, is it art?
22:19:34 <elliott_> only if it's a nicep icture
22:19:36 <cheater53> you'd say DEHINISHON'SU
22:19:50 <ajf> cheater53: Nah
22:20:01 <ajf> FI is valid, Fu+small I
22:20:17 <cheater53> yea but not popular
22:20:27 <cheater53> so it wouldn't become a popular term
22:20:36 <ajf> DEFINISHONSU
22:20:39 <ajf> nah not really
22:20:48 <ajf> phonetic extensions are everywhere
22:20:57 <Lymia> Japanese now?
22:21:02 <ajf> indeed.
22:21:21 <ajf> for example:
22:21:26 <ajf> Verudasu Orijinaru
22:21:32 <ajf> Note the "Ve".
22:21:37 <Lymia> Don't the Japanese pronounce that as "be" anyways.
22:21:42 <pikhq> I'd write it as "tèhuīnisiȳonnsu", personally.
22:21:42 <ajf> Normally
22:21:53 <pikhq> Lymia: I find it depends on the age of the speaker, actually.
22:22:02 <ajf> This is true.
22:22:23 <ajf> pikhq: That's some wierd rômaji - did you learn from an older guide?
22:22:31 <pikhq> ajf: Nah, made it up for kicks.
22:22:32 <ajf> I am used to hepburn personally
22:22:36 <Lymia> I wonder how your average English Japanese learner pronounces that.
22:22:37 <ajf> haha
22:22:41 <pikhq> ajf: Just a very, very literal encoding of kana.
22:22:48 <ajf> I guess.
22:22:53 <ajf> I prefer using actual kana
22:23:06 <pikhq> Well, yes, [
22:23:08 <pikhq> GAH
22:23:09 <pikhq> IME WORK WITH ME
22:23:18 <ajf> pikhq: inputking.com
22:23:19 <Cheery> what was I doing last time with my lisptoy?.. oh lambda arguments.
22:23:20 <ajf> online IME
22:23:21 <ajf> :>
22:23:31 * Lymia is currently learning Japanese. Kanji are "fun"
22:23:43 <pikhq> Well, yes, 「デフィニションス」 looks nicer to those who know kana.
22:24:19 <ajf> "ヴェルタス・オリジナル"
22:24:23 <Lymia> I need to learn how to read katakana sometime.
22:24:24 <Lymia> :x
22:24:26 <ajf> Verutasu orijinaru
22:24:34 <Lymia> I've neglected to do that for a while now.
22:24:42 <pikhq> Lymia: It's really not that hard.
22:24:42 <ajf> Lymia: Is not that hard, really.
22:24:51 <monqy> mmm
22:24:57 <ajf> You can do it in under a week
22:24:59 <pikhq> But, then, I don't find kanji that hard either, so take that with a grain of salt.
22:25:10 <Lymia> At least you get a good amount of practice with squiggle-kana
22:25:32 <ajf> With "ヴェルタス・オリジナル" - Guess what foreign brand that is
22:25:33 <ajf> Guess.
22:25:36 <ajf> No Googling.
22:25:47 <elliott_> nintendo love hotels
22:25:49 <pikhq> Vertas Original?!? I got nothing.
22:25:53 <ajf> no
22:25:59 <ajf> Werthers Originals
22:26:03 <pikhq> ...
22:26:04 <elliott_> X-D
22:26:06 <Lymia> w->v?
22:26:10 <ajf> Is german though, so W->V
22:26:12 <pikhq> How very German of them.
22:26:13 <ajf> yeah.
22:26:13 <Lymia> Sometimes pronounced b?
22:26:19 <elliott_> Berters original.
22:26:40 <ajf> BEETAASU ORIJINARUU
22:26:41 <pikhq> Lymia: Probably the only hard bit about katakana is the Engrishization of words.
22:26:53 <ajf> This is true.
22:26:57 <ajf> also
22:26:59 <Lymia> pikhq, I just need to find motivation
22:27:00 <Lymia> That's all.
22:27:01 <zzo38> I too prefer actual kana (or kanji with furigana) but in ASCII, you cannot use kana (although you cannot use accent marks either in ASCII)
22:27:24 <ajf> Did you know that
22:27:26 <ajf> リーミャはばか！
22:27:28 <pikhq> 「ウィルス」 (uīrusu) [wirusu] for "virus" is mother-fucking confusing. Still.
22:27:35 <elliott_> Biruswu.
22:27:46 <pikhq> ajf: こんなに馬鹿じゃないと思う。
22:28:02 <Lymia> ajf.
22:28:09 <Lymia> That is not funny.
22:28:09 <Lymia> :<
22:28:17 <ajf> :/
22:28:28 <ajf> You lied, you said you can't read katakana
22:28:32 <ajf> !!
22:28:34 <Lymia> ajf, I can read a few.
22:28:38 <ajf> :V
22:28:39 <Lymia> *cough watched Madoka cough*
22:28:44 <Lymia> *cough mami cough*
22:28:47 <ajf> lol
22:28:53 <monqy> I feel left out
22:28:58 <zzo38> I read katakana and also hiragana
22:29:00 <Lymia> *cough ri looks almost the same in both cough*
22:29:03 <ajf> zzo38: same
22:29:11 <zzo38> And some kanji
22:29:12 <pikhq> elliott_: "wu" is not a valid mora.
22:29:13 <ajf> Well
22:29:22 <ajf> I can write almost all of both syllabaries
22:29:32 <ajf> the only bit I have trouble with is the ma line
22:29:41 <ajf> ...because I never practised it :P
22:29:43 <elliott_> pikhq: You're a mora.
22:29:53 <ajf> pikhq: no
22:29:58 <ajf> It is.
22:30:01 <pikhq> ajf: How would one encode it?
22:30:04 <ajf> Just antiquated and unused
22:30:06 <ajf> er
22:30:18 <ajf> waitasec
22:30:20 <pikhq> ゐ and ゑ certainly exist, but not somewthing for "wu".
22:30:37 <ajf> yes
22:30:44 <ajf> there is only an image on wikipedia
22:30:51 <ajf> it's not even in unicode
22:31:03 <cheater53> pikhq, what are those? my hiragana and akatakana are rusty
22:31:05 <cheater53> katakana
22:31:14 <ajf> cheater53: old kana
22:31:16 <ajf> unused.
22:31:19 <pikhq> cheater53: "wi" and "we", in hiragana.
22:31:28 <cheater53> ok
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22:31:33 <ajf> as I said, unused.
22:31:35 <cheater53> why did they come to disuse?
22:31:38 <ajf> You will almost never find them
22:31:51 <ajf> I don't know, pikhq answer his question
22:31:52 <monqy> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Tory what is this nonsense
22:31:53 <pikhq> cheater53: The mora they encode fell out of use.
22:31:57 <pikhq> s/mora/morae/
22:32:03 <monqy> is this that spambot thing
22:32:03 <cheater53> what is a mora?
22:32:16 <ajf> cheater53: "syllable" in japanese
22:32:26 <cheater53> why did that fall out of use?
22:32:27 <ajf> not really a syllable
22:32:33 <pikhq> cheater53: A mora is a component of a syllable; Japanese is in terms of morae rather than syllables.
22:32:39 <pikhq> ajf: Mora is Latin, actually.
22:32:47 <monqy> aaaaahhh these spambots are ridiculous
22:32:49 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:58 <ajf> pikhq: not what I meant.
22:33:08 <ajf> It's what a Japanese "syllable" is
22:33:21 <pikhq> cheater53: Pronounciation shift; "wi" and "we" came to be pronounced "i" and "e".
22:33:37 <cheater53> why?
22:33:42 <ajf> Because.
22:33:48 <ajf> Also e used to be ye
22:33:53 <ajf> Hence "yen" in english
22:33:59 <pikhq> Because languages change pronounciation over time.
22:34:05 <ajf> Hey, english did too
22:34:11 <ajf> There's a chart somewhere
22:34:12 <cheater53> yes, but why did that happen in this way specifically?
22:34:24 <cheater53> ajf, ooo, show me
22:34:26 <Cheery> Pasted #384865 to http://paste.pocoo.org/show/384865
22:34:32 <ajf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
22:34:34 <pikhq> "wo" also came to be pronounced "o"; that kana now only exists for the gramatical particle.
22:34:37 <ajf> See that.
22:34:41 <ajf> English vowel changes.
22:34:47 <Cheery> should I say HUBRIS at this point?
22:34:48 <pikhq> For hysterical reasons, the grammatical particles use archaic spellings.
22:34:59 <Cheery> I implemented lambdas into my toy lisp example :)
22:35:07 <pikhq> cheater53: Languages change; it's just a basic elementary fact of linguistics.
22:35:18 <ajf> lisp - that's esoteric?
22:35:19 <ajf> :P
22:35:57 <cheater53> pikhq, i know that, i was asking why it changed in that specific way
22:36:08 <cheater53> and not some other way.
22:36:09 <pikhq> cheater53: "Because".
22:36:54 <Lymia> pikhq, it's confusing.
22:37:01 <Lymia> A bunch of particles are pronounced differently.
22:37:01 <Lymia> :<
22:37:34 <ajf> yes
22:37:37 <ajf> ha -> wa
22:37:40 <ajf> wo -> o
22:37:45 <ajf> are there any others?
22:37:56 <pikhq> he -> e
22:38:02 <ajf> huh.
22:38:51 <pikhq> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ky%C5%AB-Kanazukai Basically, the particles are remnants of this.
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22:40:24 <ajf> wow.
22:40:34 <ajf> that old style is really confusing
22:40:35 <ajf> :/
22:40:48 <pikhq> It was phonetic when it came into adoption.
22:41:09 <pikhq> Pronunciation changed, spelling didn't.
22:41:40 <ajf> Ahh
22:41:49 <ajf> So they changed the spelling to reflect pronunciation?
22:41:54 <pikhq> Yeah.
22:41:59 <ajf> Makes sense.
22:42:09 <pikhq> And kept the particles the same for reasons I'm not sure of.
22:42:32 <ajf> pikhq: I guess because having some things separate makes reading easier
22:42:45 <ajf> wo and ha, particularly
22:47:16 <ajf> now to work on reference implementation some more :/
22:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, hey, you got to my Reddit frontpage.
22:50:49 <tswett> Neat.
22:50:57 <tswett> Was it the TIL?
22:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:52:10 <Cheery> this is damn esoteric language.. lol.
22:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Continuing of the theme of "TIL something PH has known for ages" which always throws me.
22:52:33 <Cheery> even if I wrote that 'cond' pretty easily, it takes shitloads of time to type in factorial :)
22:52:51 <Cheery> probably.. I'll need node input mode
22:53:17 <Cheery> but then it suddenly starts looking like usual language.
22:53:32 <Cheery> maybe I'll need to branch it very soon into graphical appearance and editing.
23:03:16 <ajf> Lymia: you still here?
23:04:10 <Cheery> allright!
23:04:18 <Cheery> Pasted #384885 to http://paste.pocoo.org/show/384885
23:04:24 <Cheery> tthis fucker is able to run factorial now
23:05:05 <Cheery> Pasted #384886 to http://paste.pocoo.org/show/384886
23:05:10 <Cheery> there's linepaste of factorial
23:05:44 <ajf> what the fuck
23:06:08 <ajf> oh
23:06:12 <ajf> writing a lisp parseer
23:06:16 <ajf> ??
23:06:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:06:53 <Cheery> no. avoiding writing of lisp parser
23:07:25 <Cheery> well that's like avoiding flood wake but hey trying isn't forbidden?
23:07:55 <ajf> eh?
23:08:00 <ajf> then what are you writing?
23:08:56 <Cheery> http://hg.boxbase.org/coconut
23:09:26 <ajf> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Coconut
23:09:28 <ajf> no results
23:09:29 <ajf> ??
23:10:02 <Cheery> haven't added it yet.
23:10:06 <ajf> Ah.
23:10:18 <ajf> Are you, let me guess, parsing "Coconut" to lisp?
23:10:41 <Cheery> nah. coconut is the file format I use.
23:11:11 <Cheery> even if I wrote a factorial in this thing today, I still have to work it further.
23:11:45 <Cheery> 'texting' that factorial was damn crazy.
23:12:08 <Cheery> at least now there's something under to try it on.
23:12:11 <Cheery> good night
23:12:57 <Cheery> ajf: oh yeah. it's a structured code format.
23:14:19 <Cheery> and I've just written editing tools and an interpreter handling the format
23:15:10 <Cheery> probably getting to the point somewhere soon where I'm yet adding a number into version.
23:15:21 <ajf> cool.
23:15:31 <ajf> I've (almost) finished my DevPerc interpreter
23:15:39 <ajf> after over 6 months in development
23:15:46 <ajf> hopefully it will have been worth the wait
23:15:52 <ajf> - Gabe Newell (paraphrased)
23:15:56 <Cheery> the spec had more features while ago, but I removed excess ones until I get it doing better.
23:16:05 <ajf> Cheery: same.
23:16:12 <ajf> I now have FOUR commands
23:16:39 * Sgeo vaguly looks for an awesome compiled programming language
23:16:47 <Sgeo> Not sure why
23:17:13 <Cheery> tomorrow I'll try get my friend look at that thing, and I perhaps start writing the editor piece.
23:17:24 <Cheery> need to use old code I had. :( that's carp
23:17:25 <Cheery> *crap
23:17:32 <Sgeo> Some people dislike Common Lisp for some reason. Why?
23:18:03 <Cheery> it's fragmented langugae
23:18:13 <Cheery> that's why clisp isn't interesting to many
23:18:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:19:09 * Sgeo remembers looking at Mercury before
23:19:16 <Sgeo> I forgot what my opinion of it was
23:19:53 <Cheery> hmhmhmhm.... I'm wondering right now how I'll proceed with my editor. but then I'm getting that sleep before doing anything.
23:21:04 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:21:27 -!- Cheery has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:23:20 * Sgeo gets bored looking at Mercury
23:25:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at gallium,
23:25:55 <Sgeo> I almost Googled that, expecting to find a language
23:27:09 <ajf> :/
23:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, here, some gallium: http://periodicvideos.com/videos/031.htm