00:02:00 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:02:25 I found this message in some public comment page: listen i cant get on the sight and i want my money back ive been trying since yesterday and its not my computer its the sight i wish someone would email me back melissa 00:02:58 Note that they gave no contact information, they certainly could get on the site (to post the comment), and they don't charge any money to access it. 00:08:16 that reminds me that there was some big confusion once when google started returning a different result when you searched for the name of some big site (or possibly it was " login") 00:08:45 turns out lots of people go to sites by searching for them and clicking the first google result, always 00:08:58 *a different top result 00:10:19 so now people ended up on the wrong page, which had a comment section, and complained there that the site had changed and they couldn't find anything. or something like that. 00:11:24 http://www.facebookloginhut.com/facebook-news/facebook-login-in-google/ 00:15:10 http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_wants_to_be_your_one_true_login.php was the site (lots of ads there) 00:22:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:43 I don't even use Facebook. I don't want to use Facebook. 00:23:16 But I sometimes use OpenID login. 00:50:46 oh god... my professor wants me to call them. 00:50:56 -!- augur has joined. 00:51:36 "Uh, sorry, my phone is in the shop." 00:54:26 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 00:54:49 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:55:32 I wonder if I should just explain in an email that I have ridiculous phone call anxiety instead of avoiding the situation like I normally do. 00:56:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANANAPHONE). 00:57:46 * Sgeo looks at a video of Hedgewars 00:57:53 It's very, very much a Worms clone 01:00:54 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:01:00 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:04:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:04:23 Sgeo: have you heard of the game Magicka? 01:04:32 Now I have 01:05:26 "eaturing humorous[citation needed] in-game references to various other media titles including Star Wars, Star Trek, World of Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights, 300, Lord of the Rings, The Colour of Magic, Castlevania, Highlander, Indiana Jones, and Monty Python and the Holy Grail." 01:05:36 * Sgeo lols at the [citation needed] for humorous 01:08:34 hahaha, nice 01:08:47 but yeah, it's a great game despire various buginess. 01:16:44 what's an awesome bash command? 01:16:51 yes 01:17:17 ...lolwat 01:17:27 why would you use that. 01:17:49 Report yes bugs to bug-coreutils@gnu.org 01:17:57 ...what kind of bugs could there possibly be. 01:18:33 yes | rm -rfi 01:18:42 ...oooh 01:19:02 I have used the "yes" command to produce a continuous tone on the sound card 01:19:09 I could use that when installing things with cpan actually. It always asks if I want to install dependencies. 01:19:12 yes | write elliott 01:20:08 that's cool. I was actually looking for bash utilities that are geared towards shell scripting, but that's a good one too. 01:20:31 Sgeo: And that is why they have the "mesg n" command, I think 01:20:41 yes 01:21:00 yes no 01:21:22 yes everything I type in here will now be prefixed with yes 01:21:33 hmmm, so it's mesg y by default? 01:22:19 CakeProphet: I think it usually is, at least the last time I used "write", the recipient was able to receive it. 01:24:29 oh okay, nevermind. I thought "allowing write access" meant something completely different. Like, allowing bash input from other sources. 01:25:41 " Oracle's awesome" <<< oracle's are indeed awesome! 01:26:16 For the record, I was referring to the Internet Oracle. 01:28:05 The oracle was a very awesome program in the matrix. Proving P=NP doesn't even come close. 01:29:24 (I realize my above statement is mostly nonsense. Please allow the rational side of your mind to disregard that.) 01:30:12 *oracles 01:31:28 as is well known P^A = NP^A and P^B != NP^B for some oracles A and B 01:31:32 haven't seen the proof tho 01:31:34 so far the most useful thing I've found in shell scripting is that you can pipe to a while loop and use read to grab lines. 01:31:38 iirc also PSPACE 01:31:59 anyone familiar with these? oh wait no one is ever familiar with anything 01:32:49 you can pretty much assume that I have a limited background in theoretical computer science beyond a certain point. 01:33:23 I've... heard of PSPACE 01:33:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:34:03 CakeProphet: i would be extremely surprised if *anyone* *anywhere* was able to tell me how that result is proven 01:34:25 luckily i have it in book form and will hopefully be able to tell you guys this week 01:34:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:35:01 occasionally you find people at the uni who recall having read these proofs 01:35:16 and have no idea how they're proven 01:35:18 * Sgeo goes to try to download Hedgewars via BitTorrent 01:40:09 http://pastie.org/1914031 01:40:30 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:40:58 ...wat 01:41:08 you ordered a jpeg? 01:41:55 No, got a user account on a website, and that was a private message 01:43:35 oklofok: I was under the impression that using oracles to prove something is a silly thing to do. 01:44:22 -!- augur has joined. 01:44:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:51:08 Fire sucks in this game 01:51:38 silly? 01:51:55 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:54:09 because of the fact that P^A = NP^A and P^B != NP^B, relativizable techniques cannot be used to prove P = NP, is that what you're referring to? 01:54:14 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:54:40 relativizable = technique such that if you prove X != Y for some classes X and Y using that technique, you will have proven X^A != Y^A for all oracles A as well 01:56:11 (if the class of languages X is defined using machines of some type, X^A is the class of languages obtained by taking those same machines, except they can solve inclusion in A in no time (in time 1)) 01:56:45 (that is not a formal definition obviously, but it's obvious how it's done for the natural classes like P or NP or whatever) 01:57:02 (i mean it's obvious what the natural definition is) 02:01:38 Oops 02:02:26 -!- nddrylliog has joined. 02:03:54 -!- pikhq_ has left. 02:03:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:04:05 SO MUCH LINEAR ALGEBRA 02:04:25 Putting it off until the very last day possible == bad idea 02:04:32 -!- nddrylliog has left. 02:05:25 linear algebra is fun but all the proofs are the same you just go hmmm dimensions uh! dimensions 02:06:36 You make it sound like a chant. 02:06:52 "Hmmmm.... Dimensions... Uuuuhhh.... Dimensions..." ad infinitum 02:07:12 :D 02:07:17 * Sgeo goes to read a manual 02:07:20 exactly! 02:09:11 I'm thinking about taking Topology as one of my electives. 02:09:28 but I have to take "Introduction to Advanced Mathematics" first. 02:09:33 mmmm topology mmmm topology 02:15:09 you know what sounds fun: parsing Perl. 02:16:31 are you trying to decide whether you're gonna take Topology or Parsing Perl - An Adventure! 02:17:24 No. My mind just tends to jump to other topics very quickly. 02:17:36 but the second class sounds more fun. 02:19:05 $x = 3 / 2 // // / 3 02:19:21 the first // is defined-or, the second // is an empty pattern. :) 02:20:38 the / is division, thrown in for fun. 02:42:48 -!- augur has joined. 02:45:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:49:40 -!- calamari has joined. 03:01:27 * Lymia winces 03:06:35 * Sgeo thinks that namecoins are more interesting than bitcoins 03:06:54 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 03:24:11 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:38:21 -!- calamari has joined. 03:52:17 http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/11762072/native-html5 03:55:04 nihilist daddy would be better 03:55:14 You can call me daddy, anytime 03:55:26 oh i'm gonna call you daddy bigtime 03:55:30 -!- augur has joined. 03:55:39 Oof 03:56:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:13:11 SO VERY MUCH LINEAR ALGEBRA 04:20:30 Contrary to popular belief, computation is devoid of pedagogical value! 04:25:23 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to gropaga. 04:28:58 -!- augur has joined. 04:55:29 Have you ever even used the "mesg n" command? 04:56:50 Are you ever going to compose a piece called "Eine kleine Quinemusik"? 04:57:05 * Sgeo is not a composer. 05:11:19 -!- gropaga has changed nick to copumpkin. 05:16:18 zzo38: "Eine kleine Quinemusik" is certainly an interesting title for a piece. 05:16:26 Perhaps Gregor would like to steal it. 05:17:55 pikhq_: It is mentioned on esolang wiki, as a quine program in a programming language where both input and output are form of music. 05:18:19 Moth lands in boiling water. I scoop moth out with a cup. I let it boil for some time. 05:18:24 Will the pasta be safe to eat? 05:18:36 Probably, but not certain. 05:19:47 I have written some musics using Bohlen-Pierce although they not completely since they have only one voice with no dynamics or anything like that, just the notes and note lengths, and rests. 05:20:23 How many? Maybe fifteen such musics, I have done. 05:21:53 I played D&D today please read the recording? I know there is some typographical errors and it isn't perfectly well written, and maybe the chicken briefly changes into a duck half way through, but that isn't the point. 05:22:33 Sgeo: Boiling is sufficient for disinfecting in most contexts. 05:22:58 How long for though? I think I only let it boil a few extra minutes after the incident 05:23:14 Sgeo: How long does it normally take to boil that kind of pasta? 05:23:20 Sgeo: Sufficient. 05:23:28 Also, I don't know how cold cups are affected by boiling water 05:23:37 There might be wax in my pasta now or something 05:23:57 * Sgeo decides to assume that wax is not lethal 05:24:14 Well, then, you can learn by experience maybe (that is, if it is not lethal) 05:24:18 Wax generally isn't. 05:26:17 Is it a good idea to make a mark of chalk on the shaman's body to tell the difference from the imposter? 05:28:01 pikhq_, if I die, I'm blaming you 05:28:20 Can you blame someone if you are dead? 05:28:48 How can you write the report if you are dead? 05:29:02 zzo38, it's a joke. 05:29:17 Yes 05:31:23 But if you are making an experiment, you try to see what is deadly, you cannot write the report if you are dead! One way to test, I suppose, is ask people who are marked already for death penalty, to try and then you write the report if they are dead or not. 05:32:34 Sounds Foundation-like 05:32:54 What is "Foundation-like"? 05:33:04 zzo38, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com 05:33:19 Yes, I read that before 05:33:52 But they sometimes delete files too much 05:35:59 There was one SCP that I loved that got deleted 05:36:18 It was this little ruby gem capable of destroying structures, and perhaps the world if not controlled properly 05:36:28 It was put into a spinning thing filled with mercury 05:36:36 So it would not come in contact with a solid surface 05:38:57 If it gets too cold then it will become solid, I think 06:00:26 http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&orientation=norm&submit=Print Do you think these players have made some bad moves? 06:02:49 I would have played 21. Rxh4*e7 although I don't actually know if it is better or what better move would actually be, I just try to guess. Instead he played 21. 5*e2 5h4 22. 5xe5+ but that just lets you get captured? 06:03:27 To me it seems that 21. Rxh4*e7 1e6 22. g3 might work, isn't it? 06:07:18 here's something for you: http://anyintelli.com/games/pawnduel/index.php 06:08:54 once you get it, you can win almost everytime. 06:11:05 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:12:44 Do you have any interest in chess variants? 06:16:17 CakeProphet: that's a game called ni 06:16:20 *nim 06:19:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:21:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:38:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Occam's Razor uses a single blade.). 07:32:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:43:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:53:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:19:58 -!- augur has joined. 08:28:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:54:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:18:12 http://www.google.com.cy/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=3d2fe0574273c61c&hl=en pasting here for later reference 09:19:56 IT WORKED 09:37:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:42:11 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:31:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:58:19 status 11:12:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:41:59 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:52:16 -!- cheater_ has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:52:49 -!- cheater__ has joined. 13:15:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:20:21 There's been a Homestuck update, so I wouldn't be surprised if... 13:20:27 Aww. 13:20:44 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:23:08 -!- azaq23 has joined. 13:26:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:26:37 -!- azaq23 has joined. 13:32:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:34:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:40:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:44:18 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:44:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:56:28 -!- elliott_ has joined. 14:05:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:22:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 14:23:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:26:12 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 14:32:04 Gregor: I fear JSmips has been outdone: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browser 14:32:23 Is that with that VM thing? 14:32:28 * elliott_ clicks 14:32:32 Because if so, it just talks to a remote - 14:32:33 Oh. 14:33:00 I wonder how fast it is. 14:33:15 lmao, someone checked the system specs 14:33:29 Booting Linux (Score:3) 14:33:29 by jez9999 (618189) writes: on Tuesday May 17, @06:00AM (#36151038) Homepage Journal 14:33:29 Didn't work for me. It got to a text thing with a flashing cursor but stopped there. I don't see my Ubuntu desktop or browser icon. 14:33:40 Just gonna assume that's a joke :-P 14:33:58 probably 14:34:54 someone suggested running Apache on it 14:35:28 if you could get it to serve the JS page itself, you could have a browser sending pages to itself 14:35:32 which is sort-of ridiculous 14:36:04 [14:37] what i want to do is: run linux in javascript, and run php on top of that [14:37] then, use this php to validate forms. 14:36:31 haha 14:36:43 the same principle as the one behind node.js, just evilly backwards? 14:36:46 yes 14:37:22 [14:37] ahahah [14:37] this is perfect.. [14:38] perfectly insane!! 14:37:28 ais523: Well, if it had to be done, at least it was Fabrice Bellard :) 14:37:34 indeed 14:37:59 if you could get it to serve the JS page itself, you could have a browser sending pages to itself 14:38:05 Web Sockets don't do /serving/ 14:38:32 bleh, they should 14:42:39 It doesn't appear to have network access anyway 14:43:45 Unsurprising since only Chrome has Web Sockets on by default 14:43:54 (Everyone else disabling it due to security issues until a new standard is out/implemented) 14:48:20 Web Sockets? 14:49:00 jfgi 14:49:06 technically WebSockets 14:59:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:01:12 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:03:16 hm in haskell is there any built in function that lets me "map with a sliding window"? With that I mean something like: Given [1,2,3,4] I want the function called with 1 2 then with 2 3, 3 4. And it would return a tuple of two elements, so it would generate a new list of equal length 15:03:24 but yeah I need to see two elements at a time 15:04:02 what you really want is a transformation from a list to a sliding window 15:04:16 Vorpal: I think there's a nice function for doing something similar. 15:04:19 :t zip`ap`tail -- the aztec god of consecutive elements 15:04:20 forall b. [b] -> [(b, b)] 15:04:29 What copumpkin said. 15:04:32 :t zipWith ?f `ap` tail 15:04:33 forall b c. (?f::b -> b -> c) => [b] -> [c] 15:04:34 Combine with uncurry. 15:04:41 Oh, or what copumpkin said. 15:04:43 :t zip`ap`tail -- the aztec god of consecutive elements <-- heh nice 15:04:52 So yeah, "zipWith f `ap` tail" should do it. 15:05:03 :t ap 15:05:04 forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 15:05:09 *blink* 15:05:14 ap is generalised S combinator ;) 15:05:19 ah 15:05:23 *an 15:05:32 (Said with tongue in cheek.) 15:05:42 ah, I was about to ask what ap did 15:05:44 but I know what S does 15:05:46 ?src ap 15:05:46 ap = liftM2 id 15:05:52 ?src liftM2 15:05:52 liftM2 f m1 m2 = do { x1 <- m1; x2 <- m2; return (f x1 x2) } 15:05:55 :t liftM2 15:05:56 forall a1 a2 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r 15:06:12 mhm 15:06:17 > (zip `ap` tail) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7] 15:06:17 [(1,2),(2,3),(3,4),(4,5),(5,6),(6,7)] 15:06:18 ap is just \mf mx -> do f <- mf; x <- mx; return (f x) 15:06:42 > (zipWith (+) `ap` tail) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7] 15:06:43 [3,5,7,9,11,13] 15:06:49 > (zipWith (\x y -> [x,y]) `ap` tail) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7] 15:06:50 [[1,2],[2,3],[3,4],[4,5],[5,6],[6,7]] 15:08:19 that doesn't do quite the right thing but hm 15:08:22 yeah easy to fix 15:08:23 what does zip do if the two lists aren't the same length? just discard extra elements? 15:09:06 > zip [9,9,9] [0,0] 15:09:07 [(9,0),(9,0)] 15:09:18 > zip [0,0] [9,9,9] 15:09:18 [(0,9),(0,9)] 15:09:22 So: yes. 15:09:27 There's nothing else it /could/ do. 15:09:38 @pl \x -> zip x (tail x) 15:09:38 ap zip tail 15:09:44 just as I suspected 15:09:54 actually, ap isn't the S combinator, liftM2 is 15:09:55 ap is \si 15:09:58 * `si 15:09:59 hm worst algorithm to get length of string ever 15:10:04 Erm, no, ap is S. 15:10:15 ?pl \x y z -> x z (y z) 15:10:15 ap 15:10:25 ?unpl ap 15:10:25 (\ d e -> d >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a)) 15:10:27 Erm 15:10:29 > (x:xs) = tail (zip [1..] "foobar"); x 15:10:30 : parse error on input `=' 15:10:32 err 15:10:34 @pl \x y z -> (x z) (y z) 15:10:34 ap 15:10:35 ?unpl ap :: functions 15:10:35 (\ d e -> d >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a)) :: functions 15:10:37 lol 15:10:39 hmm, it seems you're right 15:10:44 > tail (zip [1..] "foobar") 15:10:44 [(2,'o'),(3,'o'),(4,'b'),(5,'a'),(6,'r')] 15:10:47 wait 15:10:47 ais523: ?pl \x y z -> x z (y z) 15:10:47 ap 15:10:48 not tail 15:10:49 I just showed that :P 15:10:52 what is last element now again 15:10:56 Vorpal: last 15:10:57 elliott_: ah, right 15:10:58 right 15:11:00 :t ap 15:11:01 forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 15:11:05 > last (zip [1..] "foobar") 15:11:06 (6,'r') 15:11:15 this is ALMOST same as length :P 15:11:29 I just need to get it out of there 15:11:31 :t ap 15:11:31 forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 15:11:34 Vorpal: fst 15:11:40 yeah 15:11:41 Vorpal: I'm not sure why you're trying to do that, though :P 15:11:46 > fst . last (zip [1..] "foobar") 15:11:47 Couldn't match expected type `(a, b)' 15:11:47 against inferred type `GHC.Ty... 15:11:48 err 15:11:52 Nope. 15:11:54 what monad does ap work in when you give it a question that has nothing to do with monads? Identity? 15:11:59 :t fst 15:12:00 (last (zip [1..] "foobar")) isn't a function. 15:12:00 forall a b. (a, b) -> a 15:12:03 So how can you compose a function with it? 15:12:06 > fst $ last (zip [1..] "foobar") 15:12:06 6 15:12:10 there 15:12:12 > ap id id (ap id id) 15:12:12 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b 15:12:13 Vorpal: Better: 15:12:14 bleh 15:12:30 > fst . last . zip [1..] $ "foobar" 15:12:31 Vorpal: 15:12:31 6 15:12:43 length = fst . last . zip [1..] 15:12:45 elliott_, anyway this is kind of the silliest length function ever :P 15:12:48 It is. 15:12:52 :t ap id id 15:12:53 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b 15:12:53 Probable cause: `id' is applied to too few arguments 15:12:53 In the second argument of `ap', namely `id' 15:13:03 elliott_, think haskell would optimise it? 15:13:04 ;P 15:13:05 oh right, Haskell can't type the X combinator 15:13:37 ?src length 15:13:37 Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over. 15:13:40 err 15:13:41 > foldl (+) map (const 1) $ "foobar" 15:13:42 Couldn't match expected type `[(a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]]' 15:13:42 against inf... 15:13:48 umm, I've messed that up slightly 15:13:50 :t length 15:13:50 forall a. [a] -> Int 15:13:52 :t const 15:13:53 so 15:13:53 forall a b. a -> b -> a 15:13:57 oh right, Haskell can't type the X combinator 15:14:00 It can with a newtype or two. 15:14:02 elliott_, think haskell would optimise it? 15:14:04 > foldl (+) (map (const 1)) $ "foobar" 15:14:05 Couldn't match expected type `[a] -> [t]' 15:14:05 against inferred type `GH... 15:14:07 List fusion is excellent, so it's possible. 15:14:13 elliott_, ah 15:14:15 inferred type `GH...? 15:14:17 Probably not down to length directly, though. 15:14:22 ah 15:14:27 ais523: GHC.Any, probably 15:14:32 Or GHC.Char or something 15:14:32 > (foldl (+)) . (map (const 1)) $ "foobar" 15:14:33 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([[t]] -> [t]) 15:14:33 arising from a us... 15:14:48 Prelude> foldl (+) (map (const 1)) $ "foobar" 15:14:48 :1:29: 15:14:48 Couldn't match expected type `[a0] -> [b0]' with actual type `Char' 15:14:49 Expected type: [[a0] -> [b0]] 15:14:49 Actual type: [Char] 15:14:49 In the second argument of `($)', namely `"foobar"' 15:14:51 In the expression: foldl (+) (map (const 1)) $ "foobar" 15:14:56 I've probably got that composition backwards 15:14:58 Prelude> (foldl (+)) . (map (const 1)) $ "foobar" 15:14:58 :1:8: 15:15:00 No instance for (Num [b0]) 15:15:02 arising from a use of `+' 15:15:03 I know what I want to say, I'm just geting it wrong 15:15:04 Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Num [b0]) 15:15:11 ais523: foldl requires a zero value 15:15:15 aha 15:15:22 > sum . map (const 1) $ "foobar" 15:15:23 6 15:15:26 > (map (const 1)) . (foldl (+) 0)$ "foobar" 15:15:27 Couldn't match expected type `[a]' 15:15:27 against inferred type `GHC.Types... 15:15:28 ?src sum 15:15:28 sum = foldl (+) 0 15:15:35 ais523: no, you had it the right way around 15:15:39 > (foldl (+) 0) . (map (const 1)) $ "foobar" 15:15:40 6 15:15:42 hmm, why isn't sum foldl' 15:15:43 that's stupid 15:15:43 I keep forgetting the semantics of . 15:15:56 elliott_: in case you sum an empty list 15:16:10 ais523: ... 15:16:16 > sum [] 15:16:16 0 15:16:17 ais523: That's foldl1. 15:16:22 ?src foldl' 15:16:22 foldl' f a [] = a 15:16:22 foldl' f a (x:xs) = let a' = f a x in a' `seq` foldl' f a' xs 15:16:29 ?src foldl 15:16:29 foldl f z [] = z 15:16:29 foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs 15:16:41 ?src seq 15:16:41 Source not found. I feel much better now. 15:16:45 Hmm, wait, integers are strict 15:16:47 But other number types might not be 15:16:48 what does seq do? 15:17:01 ais523: It might be good to assume I know the Prelude better than you if you keep forgetting what (.) does and don't know what seq is X-D 15:17:03 :t seq 15:17:04 forall a t. a -> t -> t 15:17:08 force its left argument before running the right argument 15:17:14 elliott_: I know you do, that's why I'm asking questions 15:17:14 ais523: Sort of. 15:17:24 I meant re: the foldl' thing :P 15:17:27 ais523: It doesn't mean the left argument will be evaluated immediately. 15:17:33 It just means it'll be evaluated before the thunk is. 15:17:38 ah, OK 15:17:46 i.e. if (a `seq` b) gets forced, a will get forced. 15:17:49 so it's a lazy version of force left before evaluating right 15:17:50 (And then b.) 15:17:59 But if (a `seq` b) isn't forced, then nothing happens. 15:18:07 ais523: There's no way to make a strict version, really 15:18:10 how far does it go? e.g. if a returns type (), and the whole thing is forced, will anything happen to calculate that ()? 15:18:13 my guess is no 15:18:15 Imagine const x (a `seq` b) 15:18:27 Or const x (foldl ... (... ... (_|_ `seq` x) ...) ...) 15:18:29 ) 15:18:34 elliott_: well, obviously not in Haskell 15:18:45 you could define strict seq just fine in, say, algol 60 15:18:46 how far does it go? e.g. if a returns type (), and the whole thing is forced, will anything happen to calculate that ()? 15:18:54 Yes. 15:18:58 Because it could also be _|_. 15:19:02 ah, I see 15:19:03 () `seq` x = x 15:19:06 _|_ `seq` x = _|_ 15:19:23 :t foldr seq () 15:19:24 forall a. [a] -> () 15:19:25 so the left-hand value is just used uselessly, in a way 15:19:32 :t \x -> foldr seq x 15:19:32 forall a b. b -> [a] -> b 15:19:37 > (4/0) seq () 15:19:38 Infinity 15:19:38 :t flip foldr seq 15:19:39 forall a a1 b. (a -> (a1 -> b -> b) -> a1 -> b -> b) -> [a] -> a1 -> b -> b 15:19:43 wait what? 15:19:46 ais523: `seq` 15:19:47 oh, I forgot the quotes 15:19:55 now I'm wondering why that typed at all 15:20:00 > (4/0) `seq` () 15:20:00 () 15:20:02 ais523: lambdabot has function instances for Num, I think 15:20:05 although that's Floating 15:20:06 god knows 15:20:07 > (4::Int/0) `seq` () 15:20:07 Only unit numeric type pattern is valid 15:20:17 > ((4::Int)/0) `seq` () 15:20:17 No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int) 15:20:17 arising from a use o... 15:20:21 ITYM `div` 15:20:26 > (9 `div` 0) `seq` () 15:20:26 *Exception: divide by zero 15:20:30 ah, you can't divide an Int? 15:20:31 i.e. _|_ 15:20:34 yep 15:20:37 that's what I was checking 15:20:37 ais523: No, but you can div one. 15:20:49 makes sense; you can divide integers, but have to div ints 15:21:12 There's also quot for ints 15:21:25 does that handle negative numbers differently? 15:21:45 guessing, I'd say -4 `div` 3 would be -1, and -4 `quot` 3 would be -2 15:22:07 > ((div (-4) 3),(quot (-4) 3)) 15:22:08 (-2,-1) 15:22:09 It affects the rounding, yes. 15:22:22 heh, that's the opposite of what I predicted 15:22:26 because I screwed up the maths 15:26:34 elliott_, BtW, Timwi wants to make a new skin for the wiki. 15:26:49 "Uh." 15:27:07 I have increasingly become of the opinion that nobody should be allowed to make a MediaWiki anything but Monobook or Vector. 15:27:24 Oh dear, he just /asked/ for sysopship? 15:27:53 elliott_: hmm, I think I might agree with you there 15:28:11 hmm... you can't actually add new skins as a sysop, can you? 15:28:17 you can modify the CSS of existing ones 15:28:20 but I don't think you can add new ones 15:28:23 making his request justification even odder 15:28:40 elliott_, oi, Haskellwiki. 15:28:58 elliott_: you can tweak the CSS and add JavaScript, but you definitely can't modify skins internally 15:29:06 Phantom_Hoover: HaskellWiki's new design is alright. 15:29:11 The old one was terrible. 15:30:15 Asking for sysopship is definitely worrying though, in most places on the internet asking for power is a sure-fire way of making sure you don't get it 15:30:39 (Wikipedia is an exception, but Wikipedia handling sysophood in a certain way is usually an argument against that way :) ) 15:31:11 ais523: you probably want to delete Subleq+, anyway 15:31:31 elliott_, if I have two Data.Word.Word8 and want to add them together getting a Word8 back, why doesn't just a+b work? 15:31:40 or hm 15:31:41 wait 15:31:45 I misread the ghc error 15:31:46 nvm 15:31:55 elliott_: I made it a redirect 15:32:07 elliott_, RationalWiki is an exception, predictably. 15:32:22 also, I got adminship on Esolang by asking Graue for it 15:32:25 I got both sysop- and bureaucratship by asking, basically. 15:32:29 but I gave an actual reason why it was needed 15:33:13 and it wasn't direct asking, more I prompted enough that he asked me 15:33:20 I once asked for sysop privs on Wikipedia. Didn't happen. 15:33:59 I can sort-of envisage how that RFA would go in my head 15:34:01 do you have a link? 15:34:25 elliott_, if I have two Data.Word.Word8 and want to add them together getting a Word8 back, why doesn't just a+b work? 15:34:26 It does. 15:34:54 elliott_: Don't encourage him pinging people for followup comments as well 15:35:06 elliott_, yeah I misread confusing ghc error 15:35:09 Deewiant: Wat? 15:35:17 elliott_: I.e. read the following lines before responding :-P 15:35:45 Deewiant: I was just confirming, and also punishing him for asking a question so soon with a ping ;D 15:37:15 ais523: I've replied to the thread about skins with a lot of parentheses and at least one neologism 15:37:37 elliott_: haha 15:39:44 I dislike your spelling of sleekifiitude 15:39:52 probably the third i is a little over the top 15:40:16 ais523: It's to aid pronunciation. 15:40:20 Sleek-ifi-itude. 15:40:22 i-FY-itude. 15:40:28 (I'm also not convinced "jaggedy" is a real word, although I think I've seen it been used before) 15:40:30 "Sleekifyitude" just looks SILLY. 15:40:37 Jaggedy is real enough a word. 15:40:39 it'd be easier to pronounce as "sleekifitude" 15:40:41 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jaggedy 15:40:59 although pronounced differently 15:41:19 ais523: But that'd miss the subtle strands of meaning :( 15:41:47 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Learning_Haskell <-- lol at the implementations section 15:41:58 A really verbose table version of "Yeah, uh, just use GHC." 15:42:16 Hmm, Helium and UHC aren't exactly actively developed either. 15:42:26 Well, UHC might be. 15:42:31 Hmm, seems so. 15:42:38 Helium isn't, though, I don't think. 15:43:25 elliott_, wasn't there a jhc? 15:43:28 I didn't realize that Haskell's logo was "Lambda on Commodore 64" 15:43:43 Gregor, lol 15:43:47 Vorpal: Yes, it's relatively well-developed but not really compatible with much IIRC. 15:43:56 And it's a whole-program-including-libraries compiler. 15:44:12 Gregor: X-D 15:44:17 Gregor: It's been most-compared to Amtrak's logo :P 15:44:29 It's not the best logo from the contest IMO but it's alright. 15:44:48 http://www.blogonauts.com/eats-the-world/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Haskell_Logo.jpg ;; kickin' it oldschool 15:44:57 elliott_, ah 15:45:05 elliott_, kind of cool iirc last I looked at it 15:45:16 Vorpal: Yeah, but it doesn't even have a REPL :P 15:45:18 elliott_, whole program optimisation taken a step further than usual 15:45:28 LibClang 0.0.8 15:45:28 It's useless for anyone trying to /learn/ Haskell. 15:45:29 Haskell bindings for libclang (a C++ parsing library) 15:45:30 lololol 15:45:37 Gregor: what? 15:45:41 elliott_, ah 15:45:44 libclang is a C++ parsing library now? 15:45:46 Vorpal: And I'm still not sure it's actually useful yet :P 15:46:04 elliott_, it is cool however. Anyway this logo used to be used quite recently iirc? http://www.blogonauts.com/eats-the-world/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Haskell_Logo.jpg 15:46:13 Gregor: It seems to at least partially be, yes. 15:46:22 Vorpal: The new logo has been around for, like, over a year. 15:46:27 Yes. "Partially" 15:46:32 elliott_, ah, quite new then 15:46:48 The LibClang package 15:46:48 LibClang package provides direct bindings to libclang. 15:46:48 This should be enough for parsing C/C++ code, walking the AST and querying nodes and completion queries. 15:46:59 Gregor: It doesn't seem to actually have compilation support. 15:47:01 At least the binding doesn't. 15:47:14 You guys FAIL SO HARD. 15:47:16 bbl 15:47:21 Gregor: Define you guys. 15:47:24 Me? 15:47:29 The person who wrote the binding? 15:47:32 Every Haskell user in existence? 15:47:37 I'm sure the binding is only to the parser, I was laughing at the suggestion that libclang is a "C++ parser library" 15:47:54 *parsing 15:47:58 http://clang.llvm.org/doxygen/group__CINDEX.html 15:48:08 I don't really see anything related to non-parsing there. 15:48:19 Except for maybe "translation unit manipulation". 15:48:36 Translation unit m---that's one :P 15:48:55 Unless it just counts a C++ file as a translation unit. 15:49:00 Which is, IIRC, a perfectly valid definition. 15:49:09 CINDEX_LINKAGE CXTranslationUnit clang_parseTranslationUnit (CXIndex CIdx, const char *source_filename, const char *const *command_line_args, int num_command_line_args, struct CXUnsavedFile *unsaved_files, unsigned num_unsaved_files, unsigned options) 15:49:09 Parse the given source file and the translation unit corresponding to that file. 15:49:10 Yep. 15:49:20 Maybe there are some non-parsing functions there, but it's certainly not obvious that there are. 15:49:22 BLAR BLAR BLAR. 15:49:26 I say BLAR BLAR! 15:49:42 Also, apparently libclang is made of fail :P 15:49:46 Like it says: "The C Interface to Clang provides a relatively small API that exposes facilities for parsing source code into an abstract syntax tree (AST), loading already-parsed ASTs, traversing the AST, associating physical source locations with elements within the AST, and other facilities that support Clang-based development tools." 15:49:48 So I feel like "libclang is a library to parse and analyse C and C++ (and probably Objective-C) source code" is a valid assessment. 15:49:56 fizzie: So, it is a parsing library then. 15:49:58 HOKAY 15:50:12 elliott_: BLAR. BLAR. BLAR. 15:50:41 It's still better than libgcc which doesn't have anything to do with compiling code. :p 15:50:52 True. 15:53:52 fizzie, should be libgccruntime or something like that 15:54:29 fizzie: yes it does, it's a library of functions to compile code into 15:54:39 " So you’ve seen other skins that are rubbish, and because of that you don’t even want to let me try? — Timwi 15:53, 17 May 2011 (UTC)" 15:54:43 Sigh, this is going to turn into a spat, isn't it. 15:54:45 in case your system doesn't have a 64-bit multiply or whatever, you can compile it into the libgcc version 15:54:56 elliott_, where is that quote from? 15:55:06 Vorpal: talk:main page 15:55:10 ais523, or in case it lacks a 32-bit add 15:55:43 elliott_, what is it about really, skins? 15:55:46 eh 15:55:51 I am a space ship. 15:56:00 Vorpal: Yes. 15:56:08 Timwi wants to be a sysop so he can make a new default skin. 15:56:25 sounds reasonable to me. 15:56:37 but, then again, I am a space ship. 15:57:47 elliott_: I've suggested that Timwi makes his pure-CSS skin using User:Timwi/myskin.css 15:58:09 pure css skin? mediawiki? 15:58:10 ais523: ugh, I'm trying to edit the page, and I've already had /one/ edit conflict 15:58:13 this must be a joke 15:58:23 Vorpal: indeed 15:58:43 but a "if you think that's possible and will work well, prove it" response is better than a "that won't work" response, although I gave both 15:59:09 note that Timwi apparently doesn't know how to make an internal link to a section 15:59:20 oh my 15:59:32 which is not completely obvious, but I'd rather people knew that sort of thing before wanting to mess around with the MediaWiki: pages which are a lot more finicky 15:59:42 oh 15:59:45 ais523's edit was saved 15:59:46 phew 16:00:09 ais523, it is [[#foo|whatever]] isn't it? 16:00:26 Vorpal: yes, and [[page#foo|whatever]] to link to a section on a different page, which is what he was trying to do 16:01:06 ais523, doing that to the same page works though, except it will cause the browser to reload the page. Oh and mess up with clicking them when doing preview on edit 16:01:31 wow, it's a pretty huge thread already 16:02:22 btw, the problem with linking to pages with + in their name isn't a MediaWiki bug, it's a bug in the Apache mod_rewrite config 16:02:26 but I don't know the solution offhand 16:05:44 elliott_, which haskell mode for emacs do you suggest? 16:05:56 Vorpal: Latest haskell-mode from darcs. 16:06:03 With 16:06:03 (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-doc-mode) 16:06:04 (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-indentation) 16:06:14 elliott_, why the last from darcs 16:06:15 Although haskell-indentation has been annoying me more and more lately because it tries to be too smart but not smart enough 16:06:21 Vorpal: Because the distro versions are really out of date 16:06:25 Although haskell-indentation has been annoying me more and more lately because it tries to be too smart but not smart enough 16:06:30 elliott_, what am I going to miss? 16:06:31 (This will only apply if you do tricky nesting though :-P) 16:06:35 Vorpal: Improvements. 16:06:40 elliott_, gee thanks 16:06:40 Come on, it's just a 16:06:42 $ darcs get http://code.haskell.org/haskellmode-emacs/ haskell-mode 16:06:42 away 16:06:48 elliott_, and installing that 16:06:51 Vorpal: No? 16:06:54 which I forgot how to do 16:06:54 Just "load" instead of "require". 16:07:00 right that ws it 16:07:01 was* 16:07:05 (load "~/blah/haskell-mode/haskell-site-file.el") 16:07:08 (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-doc-mode) 16:07:08 (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-indentation) 16:08:18 mmm hooks 16:08:41 I've never been able to get myself to use emacs. 16:08:49 or vim for that matter. 16:09:05 how do you precompile *.elc now again... 16:09:10 I use gedit for most programming tasks. 16:09:22 Vorpal: Do you really need to :P 16:09:27 CakeProphet, gedit is terrible. kate is better 16:09:37 elliott_, yes, I need to optimise loading time obviously 16:09:40 CakeProphet, gedit is terrible. kate is better <-- stop trying to start a flamewar 16:09:49 (it'd be ok if you just flamed it without suggesting an alternative ;D) 16:09:54 okay 16:09:58 hmm, 16:09:59 gedit is quite terrible 16:10:05 we need a lot of people who love kate in here 16:10:09 and there are options but I refuse to tell you them 16:10:11 so we can get a good gedit/kate flamewar 16:10:19 then if a vi or emacs guy comes in, they'll assume we're all noobs 16:10:27 elliott_, I don't love kate, I find it usable, but far from perfect 16:10:36 eh, it's not a particularly amazing piece of software, but it has syntax highlighting and automatic indents, which are the two essentials for me. 16:10:44 "Pico forevar!" 16:10:49 elliott_: I use both Kate and gedit; and I think Kate is better but I use gedit more often 16:10:51 fizzie, nano 16:10:58 fizzie: "nano? Oh come on, they haven't even implemented [OBSCURE PICO KEY COMBINATION]." 16:11:02 gedit's my Notepad substitute, for the sort of things that would work just fine in Notepad 16:11:04 Vorpal: SEE ABOVE 16:11:07 and I also use it for editing lua, for some reason 16:11:13 unless it's really really complex lua, then I use Emacs 16:11:19 I wonder if anyone's made a faithful Notepad clone for GTK 16:11:21 that would be amusing 16:11:28 including the automatic date insertion stuff 16:11:37 I have a wine notepad... 16:11:38 elliott_, Remember it has to refuse to open too large files 16:11:53 ais523, anyway, why not use kate if you think it is better than gedit 16:12:06 ais523, I mean, kate and gedit loads in about the same amount of time 16:12:07 Vorpal: Modern(TM) Notepad can handle large files. 16:12:11 CakeProphet: True :P 16:12:17 elliott_, post-XP? 16:12:48 ais523: Vorpal is very disgruntled by your gedit use, apparently. haha. 16:12:56 no I'm just trying to understand 16:13:14 yeah I figured. 16:13:14 "Notepad makes use of a built-in window class named "EDIT". In older versions such as those included with Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Me and Windows 3.1, there is a 64k limit on the size of the file being edited, an operating system limit of the EDIT class." 16:13:24 kate is a pain in gnome 16:13:29 So any NT-class Notepad should be mokay. 16:13:30 mostly because kdefour anything is a pain in anything 16:13:38 I just realised I typed nano -w ~/.emacs 16:13:39 XD 16:13:44 I have never used kate, actually. 16:14:06 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:14:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:14:12 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:14:18 real men and women and also people edit with LEADEN 16:14:47 elliott_: which editor was yours that saved every keystroke and used a VCS for its undo feature? 16:14:57 I edit with Perl, duh. 16:15:22 ais523: leaden :) 16:15:27 elliott_: I thought it might be 16:15:30 ais523: I never got to implementing the undo, though 16:15:32 that would fit in so nicely with sg 16:15:36 although, it wasn't going to use VCS for undo, just for save 16:15:37 which isn't really implemented either 16:15:38 ais523, sg? 16:15:42 oh scapegoat? 16:15:42 Vorpal: scapegoat 16:15:43 Vorpal: Have you pre-byte-compiled your Emacs init file already? The manual disrecommends it, but startup time is obviously crucial. 16:15:44 because branching undo with VCSes is a pain 16:15:46 right 16:15:47 since you have to explicitly branch 16:15:59 it'd serialise its own undo tree 16:16:00 fizzie, I forgot how to pre-byte-compile 16:16:03 how do you apply a .diff patch to a c project? 16:16:14 quintopia: ... 16:16:22 fizzie, do you happen to know? 16:16:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:16:31 OK, /I/ have troubles remembering how to use patch sometimes, but come on, you could have found out the answer to that in five seconds by Googling. 16:16:31 anyway the init file: meh 16:16:44 fizzie, anyway real speed fans loads it into the emacs image 16:16:53 (since emacs is already an image with pre-loaded stuff) 16:17:03 elliott_: it would take me at least 2 minutes. the only place i get 5 second answers is here 16:17:21 quintopia: you're really slow at clicking links 16:17:32 Real speed fans would just, you know, not bother with starting Emacs, since it's obviously already running. 16:17:52 elliott_: can't help the fact internet here is slow 16:18:29 (The manual recommends the Emacs server dealie as an alternative to byte-compiling init files.) 16:20:10 oh make compile did it 16:20:19 fizzie, heh 16:23:08 hmmm.. I might start using Emacs 16:23:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:24:01 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 16:24:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:25:09 Emacs is like Windows, it's a really shitty platform but you use it anyway because of what's built on it 16:25:12 (i.e. the modes) 16:25:23 but jesus these tutorials are obnoxious. 16:25:40 You're not reading the built-in tutorial are you? 16:25:56 I'm reading the "tour" 16:26:13 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/? 16:26:17 yes that. 16:26:24 It looks stupid. 16:26:43 Hey, read Xah Lee's tutorial; if nothing else it'll be AMUSING! 16:26:49 I will leave it up to fizzie to tell CakeProphet not to. 16:27:12 elliott_, this example is simple old code: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/images/code.png 16:27:32 ...M-x is such an awkward key combination 16:27:45 M-x isn't used very often 16:27:47 CakeProphet, no x is just above alt 16:27:54 so thumb + index finger 16:27:54 Vorpal: yes, which is why it's so awkward 16:28:00 yes, your thumb has to contort underneath your finger 16:28:02 or thumb for both 16:28:06 hm true 16:28:12 CakeProphet, anyway yeah it is rarely used 16:28:51 elliott_, this example is simple old code: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/images/code.png 16:28:52 What's old about it 16:28:58 (What's simple about it) 16:29:08 elliott_, "simply*" 16:29:15 but old, check functions 16:29:16 foo(bar) 16:29:22 int bar 16:29:26 Yes? 16:29:27 ...why would I ever remember all of these key combos.... 16:29:27 elliott_, come on, it is K&R 16:29:28 Emacs is coded like that. 16:29:34 elliott_, !! 16:29:42 You realise Emacs was mature in the eighties, right? 16:29:45 yes 16:29:52 CakeProphet: Because they do useful things? 16:29:57 but no reason to not protoize it after 16:29:58 bbl 16:29:58 You don't have to remember THAT many. 16:30:00 need to turn off computer 16:30:03 thunderstorm 16:30:10 Vorpal: protoize affects semantics. 16:30:16 K[and]R functions do freaky upconversion. 16:30:41 CakeProphet: Heck, I even use the arrow keys. 16:30:42 elliott_: yeah but there's a whole list of things to memorize for doing simple stuff like... moving through text. Whereas every other text editor ever uses home, end, ctrl+left/right, etc 16:30:56 me too. 16:30:57 CakeProphet: Well, the point is that Ctrl+F/B/P/N avoid moving your hands... 16:31:09 But moving around in one-char increments is a stupid idea anyway. 16:31:14 C-s is a godsend. 16:31:25 which is? 16:31:28 Incremental search. 16:31:40 ah. 16:31:47 CakeProphet: Anyway, Emacs is actually older than cursor keys. :p 16:31:54 (Well, hmm.) 16:31:58 (Older than cursor keys on PCs, anyway.) 16:32:05 a fast search and replace would be a significant boon towards emacs to me 16:32:19 Uhh... there are editors with SLOW search and replace? 16:32:30 as in like, a fast, non-interrupting search and replace. 16:33:01 ...how big files do you edit exactly 16:33:04 I like the idea of not having to deal with UI dialogs. 16:33:13 not as in a fast execution time for the search-replace. 16:33:17 Well, nothing in Emacs is non-interrupting, the damn thing doesn't even have threads. 16:33:20 Oh, I see what you mean. 16:33:25 I'm talking about the interface... hahaha 16:33:26 It's done with the minibuffer. 16:33:46 M-x replace-string source replacement , although there's also a regexp version. 16:33:51 Maybe there's a keybinding for replace-string, dunno. 16:33:56 (In any case you can assign your own if you want.) 16:34:03 wait... no threads? Does it have weird "clunkiness" issues? 16:34:10 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:34:10 Not really. 16:34:24 Text editing doesn't exactly involve intensive computation. 16:34:34 hmmm so what's the difference between replace-string and replace-query 16:34:42 What's replace-query 16:34:48 I don't even have that command here 16:35:02 Oh, there's query-replace 16:35:03 ...I don't know, but this tour thing mentions it. it's C-% I think? 16:35:06 maybe M-% 16:35:15 Dunno, it seems to act just like replace-string... 16:35:39 * elliott_ checks it out (C-h F query-replace) 16:35:51 If you want to change only some of the occurrences of `foo' to 16:35:52 `bar', not all of them, use `M-%' (`query-replace'). This command 16:35:52 finds occurrences of `foo' one by one, displays each occurrence and 16:35:52 asks you whether to replace it. 16:35:55 No output. 16:35:57 CakeProphet: replace-string just does it unconditionally. 16:36:59 ah okay. 16:37:14 what was the F for in that C-h command? 16:37:31 Look up command. 16:38:05 There's other things to look up key binding, look up Lisp function/variable/etc., start the info reader, blah blah blah. 16:38:08 ....I won't even ask how F correlates to that. I guess "function"? 16:38:13 C-h f is function. 16:38:20 And, uhh, commands are functions? 16:38:23 So I guess... so? 16:38:24 ah okay. 16:38:31 God knows, I just looked it up in C-h ? since I forgot. :-P 16:38:39 (C-h ? being "help about C-h".) 16:38:44 (If only it was "help about C-h ?".) 16:38:46 ...hahaha. what happens if you forget C-h ? 16:38:58 I think it comes up if you press C-h and then sit there for a few seconds doing nothing. 16:39:04 If you forget C-h, I think you just give up. 16:39:08 ...nice. 16:39:15 But then you'd have to remember C-x C-c to quit. 16:39:25 oh god... 16:39:35 Oh come on, how often do you quit your editor? 16:39:53 It's worth nothing that Emacs actually predates Ctrl+X/C/V altogether. 16:40:01 Vi's the canonical "oh no I'm trapped and can't get out" program. 16:40:02 Depends heavily on what I'm doing. With gedit it can be often. 16:40:03 Often when doing one-off edits 16:40:14 Deewiant: Yes, but quitting Emacs is an Emacs anti-pattern. 16:40:23 You don't spawn a new Emacs just to make a one-off edit. 16:40:25 ed is worse than vi, I'd say 16:40:27 elliott_: I think as soon as you press control-h, Emacs gives you a hint that you might want to press ? if you don't know what to do next 16:40:31 But perhaps less canonical 16:40:32 What? ed's just "q". 16:40:35 vi requires a COLON in front. 16:40:39 elliott_: I do, because I have Emacs set up to remember state when I close it 16:40:40 I think I'd use gedit for quick edits anyways... 16:40:41 That's unintuitive[exclamation mark] 16:40:48 ais523: You don't use Emacs conventionally. 16:40:57 I think our new-student computer-system-primer documentation had a "here's what to do when you end up in vi" page. 16:41:04 elliott_: indeed, but the option has to exist for a reason 16:41:06 fizzie: Step one: Panic. 16:41:11 Give vim ^C and it says "type :quit", give ed ^C and it says "?" 16:41:18 ais523: Well, quitting Emacs is useful for reasons other than quitting other editors. 16:41:27 For instance: logging out of your time-sharing system. 16:41:44 ...I lol'd. 16:41:50 Deewiant: I'm surprise GNU ed doesn't have fancy error messages. 16:41:56 Deewiant: "Regular" vi doesn't help you with ^C, though. 16:41:57 Deewiant: vim reacts the same way on control-X control-C 16:42:05 presumably to help out lost Emacs users 16:42:09 okay so what is c-x? 16:42:10 ais523: fail 16:42:13 although I never even thought of trying Emacs' quit sequence in vim 16:42:19 ais523: Give vim ^C and it says "type :quit", give ed ^C and it says "?" 16:42:20 Deewiant: vim reacts the same way on control-X control-C 16:42:26 Guess what C-c is? 16:42:27 That's right, ^C. 16:42:29 elliott_: yes, it's probably because the control- X doesn't leave it in a state where control-C has a different meaning 16:42:33 but vi is very modal 16:42:38 as is vim 16:42:41 Ctrl+X literally does nothing. 16:42:46 I doubt that's to help out Emacs users. 16:42:53 vim doesn't use Ctrl much. 16:42:59 I mean what C-x in emacs. 16:43:03 +is 16:43:09 CakeProphet: ? 16:43:12 CakeProphet: Oh. 16:43:12 fizzie: I don't have regular vi on any of my machines, so I couldn't check :-P These days you run into vim more often anyway 16:43:16 CakeProphet: C-x is just a prefix. 16:43:21 It does nothing by itself, you just put stuff after it. 16:43:31 (Without it, you'd run out of keys on the keyboard to press to do things.) 16:43:33 so it's like... super-alt? :P 16:43:49 elliott_: Ctrl+X decrements the number under the cursor 16:43:51 It's like a sticky mega-alt that lasts for one additional keycombo. :p 16:43:54 Deewiant: Heh. 16:44:05 whereas ESC is literally prefix alt 16:44:17 alt-X and ESC X have the same meaning in Emacs 16:44:20 ais523: More like alt is combination ESC. 16:44:28 and ESC ESC x has the same meaning as ESC alt-X 16:44:29 elliott_: indeed 16:44:36 .....waaaat. why. 16:44:41 CakeProphet: Because of terminals. 16:44:44 actually, technically it's meta not alt, but most modern Emacsen translate 16:44:47 CakeProphet: ESC didn't used to mean "lol exit". 16:45:00 CakeProphet: over telnet, you can't distinguish alt-letter from esc letter except by the timing 16:45:02 Alt+x is, VT[one hundred]-wise, just ESC, followed by alt. 16:45:02 ah, escape as in escape sequence. 16:45:03 erm. 16:45:04 Alt+x is, VT[one hundred]-wise, just ESC, followed by x. 16:45:08 ais523: "over telnet"? 16:45:14 That's an anachronism as far as Emacs goes. 16:45:56 elliott_: I know, but it's relevant for /me/ 16:46:00 because I do a lot of roguelike development 16:46:14 ...awesome. :) 16:46:19 and telnet lacks the nuances to get anything other than the vt100 terminal codes, portably at least 16:46:36 I like how that means ESC actually takes some amount of time in vi(m). 16:46:43 I used to work on MUD servers back in the day (read: like 2 years ago) 16:46:45 Because it's waiting to see if you'll send cursor-control bytes. 16:46:55 (OK, some amount = imperceptable, but still.) 16:46:58 [asterisk]imperceptible 16:47:37 CakeProphet: it isn't my server, but it's my NetHack fork: telnet acehack.rawrnix.com 16:47:52 still a bit buggy atm, although it's in beta not alpha 16:47:59 ... -uses his MUD client instead of telnet- 16:48:05 Deewiant: After you've (in panic) managed to accidentally modify your file, the ":quit" tip isn't really enough. (Admittedly :q then says "add ! to override", but it doesn't tell where to "add" that, and if you then type plain ! you're likely to get real confused + accidentally run a shell command too.) 16:48:32 vi was created in an attempt to trick emacs users into removing all their files 16:48:34 TRUE CHRONOLOGIES 16:49:17 is there anything in emacs that REQUIRES the use of a mouse? 16:49:28 fizzie: Mayhap 16:49:32 I notice that the "open file" option has no key combination next to it. 16:49:44 CakeProphet: C-x C-f 16:49:51 Nobody uses the toolbar or menu. 16:49:53 Nobody. 16:50:11 (Now ais523 will say he does, just to prove me wrong, because he uses Emacs in the silliest way possible.) 16:50:25 elliott_: it looks pretty awful. 16:50:38 CakeProphet: You can turn them off in your ~/.emacs. 16:50:45 I don't think anyone doesn't. 16:50:53 ...I'll keep them while I'm getting the hang of things. 16:51:30 elliott_: I think I've used the menu, though not habitually. 16:51:32 You'll definitely want to put some things in your ~/.emacs soonish, since the defaults are insane in some ways. 16:51:48 yeah I'll look into it soon. 16:51:49 For instance, even if you like to indent with four spaces, it'll replace every eight-space sequence with a tab. 16:52:02 i.e. 16:52:04 ....x 16:52:04 ......whut. yes, that needs to go. 16:52:09 ============x 16:52:12 ========....y 16:52:16 ================z 16:52:21 ...oh god. 16:52:22 ========....y 16:52:23 ....x 16:52:27 Where . is space and = is a tab. 16:52:29 Erm. 16:52:33 Eight =s are a tab. 16:52:34 That is, . is a space and eight =s are a tab. 16:52:35 elliott_: I use the menu via F10 sometimes, which pops it up in a separate buffer, when I can't remember what a command's called 16:52:35 Right. 16:52:45 does that count as using the menu in the sense you were referring to? 16:52:49 ais523: Not really. 16:53:02 good, I think 16:53:10 a GUI menu would just take up space, although it took me a while to figure out how to disable it 16:53:43 elliott_: yes I'd like to know how to change that behavior immediately. :P 16:54:36 CakeProphet: Depends. 16:54:51 CakeProphet: Do you want to indent with single tabs all the time but show them as some width other than eight, or do you want to indent exclusively with spaces? 16:55:11 (custom-set-variables '(indent-tabs-mode nil)) goes to space-exclusive indentation 16:55:12 For the latter, it's (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil). 16:55:15 ais523: ugh 16:55:17 ais523: see I wish MUDs could take advantage of telnet. But there's virtually no support for that kind of thing. 16:55:21 ais523: Useless Use of Custom Award 16:55:28 For the latter, it's (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) AND DEFINITELY NOT WHAT AIS JUST SAID. 16:55:31 elliott_: not useless, as that's how I made the setting in the first place 16:55:41 the former doesn't exist, as tabs always mean 8 16:55:41 elliott_: I prefer spaces honestly. 16:55:49 ais523: Troll. 16:56:21 elliott_: the other opinion has ruined tabs for everyone 16:56:29 as if they don't have a meaning, they're meaningless, and thus can't be used 16:56:39 ais523: Your opinion is not popular as has been established many times. 16:56:48 Stop being a pain by assuming everyone shares it, since you know they don't. 16:56:49 elliott_: that doesn't mean it isn't /correct/ 16:57:02 I am trying to help CakeProphet configure Emacs. 16:57:05 ...oh god. tab/spaces flamewar? 16:57:10 CakeProphet: no 16:57:14 it's an even stupider flamewar than that 16:57:20 and the only one on ais523's side is ais523 16:57:23 also, he's the only one who ever brings it up 16:57:30 elliott_: NetHack source agrees with me 16:57:38 as does C-INTERCAL's before I started working on it 16:57:42 ais523: If you had just said "I don't think you should do that", fine. But stating it as a fact when you know many people in here disagree strongly _is trolling_. 16:57:53 I'm not going to reply to any further lines on the matter because that would be feeding the troll. 16:57:53 As do vi's and emacs's defaults 16:57:55 so that's every open source project I've made major contributions to 16:58:04 Deewiant: vi's too? I didn't know that 16:58:08 (I did know it wrt Emacs) 16:58:28 I'm pretty sure of it 16:58:34 it's been my experience that in modern programming spaces-only is preferred. 16:58:40 Deewiant: Uh, no. 16:58:45 Deewiant: vi does not indent with mixed tabs/spaces by default. 16:59:06 Oh, it only does if you change shiftwidth 16:59:08 It shows tabs as shift-to-next-multiple-of-eight by default but that is not the same thing. 16:59:39 alright so which file does this setq go in? 16:59:49 CakeProphet: It's a setq-default, and ~/.emacs. 17:00:00 elliott_: and what about this? I did some editing on Nibbles, and it uses two-space indentation, with the following at the top of the file: /* -*- Mode: C; indent-tabs-mode: t; c-basic-offset: 8; tab-width: 8 -*- */ 17:00:17 admittedly, that specification of the file format completely contradicts the actual /content/ of the file (which uses two-space indentation and never tabs) 17:00:18 elliott_: okay. I was just saying setq for brevity. 17:00:21 ais523: Please realise that I am not looking to change your opinion or get into a flamewar because I've done that enough times about this and have realised it's fucking pointless. I am just telling you that expressing it in the blunt way you do that ignores all differing opinions is trolling. 17:00:34 I am not going to respond to any defences of your opinion because that is not what this is about. 17:00:42 elliott_: I'm trying to say that as far as I can tell, my opinion is the majority one among open-source code 17:00:49 ais523: It does not matter what your opinion is. 17:00:54 It matters how you're expressing it. 17:01:00 CakeProphet: Right; setq is something subtly different. 17:01:17 halp! C-x C-f isn't doing anything. 17:01:23 CakeProphet: the difference is subtle enough that setq will generally normally work, but is nonetheless incorrect 17:01:32 CakeProphet: Yes it is. 17:01:37 Look at the bottom of the window. 17:02:04 oh hey! that was cut off. 17:03:58 oh okay. there's .emacs and then .emacs.d 17:04:15 .emacs.d is just zis directory, you know? 17:04:38 ...uh, so, C-v is paste I'm hoping? 17:04:44 No. 17:04:46 C-y 17:04:48 Kind of. 17:05:23 Emacs predates your foolish standardised keyboard commands! 17:05:35 you can basically use C-w as cut, M-w as copy, C-y as paste 17:05:43 the commands have a bit more functionality than that, though 17:05:45 Except selection also works as copy. 17:05:47 ......... 17:05:48 (To the X selection.) 17:05:55 elliott_: selection with the mouse, that is 17:06:02 with the keyboard, it doesn't 17:06:11 CakeProphet: If you're looking for something that acts like it was invented in the 00s or 90s, you're in the wrong place. 17:06:19 Emacs predates just about everything else you're using, get used to it :) 17:06:23 it tends to be simplest to use the mouse rather than the keyboard for copying/pasting into and out of Emacs 17:06:41 is there any reason I shouldn't change that to C-c, C-x and C-v? 17:06:46 oh wait 17:06:47 CakeProphet: Yes. 17:06:47 I see. 17:06:51 For one, that clashes with everything. 17:06:53 C-c and C-x are both prefix commands 17:06:55 For two, they do not behave identically. 17:07:01 There is a cua-mode that uses delays to work out which you mean... 17:07:02 But one, ugly. 17:07:03 C-v wouldn't be much of a clash, because it does the same thing as Page Down 17:07:08 And two, like I said: they do not act identically. 17:07:18 ais523: C-v is a lot more convenient to press than page down. 17:07:23 it is 17:07:26 what is page up? 17:07:29 M-v 17:07:39 -!- monqy has joined. 17:07:41 ..ew, but okay. 17:07:46 Emacs in general doesn't assume that you've got any keys on your keyboard but letters/numbers/punctuation, control, and esc 17:07:50 C-v is a nice page down though, I agree. 17:08:03 although it can make use of them if you happen to have them 17:08:21 at least arrow keys do what I expect. :D 17:08:23 technically speaking you can even get by without a return/enter key 17:08:53 although return is normally more convenient than C-q C-j (C-j does almost but not quite the same thing) 17:09:14 hmm, interesting c-x c-arrow scrolls through buffers. 17:09:20 I use C-j habitually now 17:09:33 yep, what it does is probably better than regular return 17:09:50 but my fingers are trained to press tab-return instead, which is almost the same as control-j 17:10:42 return-tab, surely 17:10:54 hmmm, interesting. 17:11:04 but yeah I've got a pretty innate return-tab reflex. 17:11:04 elliott_: nope, I fix the indentation just before moving onto the next line 17:11:10 which comes to the same thing 17:11:28 sometimes tab-return-tab or return-tab, but many major modes automatically do a tab after a return anyway 17:11:46 CakeProphet: except you only hit tab once, with emacs 17:12:50 elliott_: hmmm? I always hit tab once. 17:13:08 -!- ralc has joined. 17:13:16 Hmm, what kind of editor has tab as "indent all the way" but doesn't automatically indent on enter? 17:13:18 Apart from Emacs. 17:13:34 An Emacs clone? 17:13:47 er, gedit uses automatic indenting. So when I hit enter it's automatically at the same indent level as the last line 17:13:49 elliott_: Kate doesn't by default, but it has text in its options dialog telling you how to set it up like that 17:13:53 and when I need to indent one more level I just press tab once... 17:13:56 CakeProphet: that's not quite the same 17:14:02 that's the minimum needed for an editor to be sane 17:14:09 but it's not nearly as good as it could be 17:14:13 er, gedit uses automatic indenting. So when I hit enter it's automatically at the same indent level as the last line 17:14:18 Enter goes to column one in emacs. 17:14:23 Then Tab indents all the way to the current indentation level. 17:14:24 I find Notepad unusable precisely because of missing that feature 17:14:27 Actually: 17:14:30 Tab just reindents the current line. 17:14:30 ah okay. 17:14:31 or any way to simulate it 17:14:39 -!- augur has joined. 17:14:40 So if you type enter, tab, }, then tab, it'd move it left. 17:14:46 elliott_: not necessarily; Tab reindents the current line in modes where that can be sensibly calculated 17:15:00 in modes like Python or Haskell where there's often more than one possibility that would make sense, it cycles 17:15:03 -!- Gregor has set topic: SIN PARTY SATURDAY | GAY ORGY ALL NIGHT LONG | GLUTTONOUS FEAST | PROBABLY MURDER IF THERE'S TIME | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:15:24 and in text-mode or others which don't have systems like that, it just moves to the next plausible tab stop 17:15:29 Gregor: I don't really like that topic 17:15:29 elliott_: is the tab before the } even necessary? 17:15:36 it isn't interesting, and it isn't funny either 17:15:48 ais523: You're unaware of the rapture on the 21st? :P 17:15:50 CakeProphet: as an option, defaulting to on, } contains an auto-reindent just like tab does 17:15:56 CakeProphet: No. 17:15:59 Gregor: it still doesn't make it particularly funny 17:16:08 CakeProphet: But I usually use C-j instead of enter/tab all the time. 17:16:13 so tab is just a "magically tab the right way" button? 17:16:17 ais523: Pfff, have fun being raptured like a loser then. 17:16:23 Yes. Except if you're coding Python. 17:16:24 -!- ais523 has set topic: Topical discussion on the best way to reinforce ceilings | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:16:27 (or Haskell) 17:16:28 Gregor: that's a much simpler method 17:16:34 elliott_: and then it does what I'm familiar with? 17:16:34 Then it cycles through all possible indentations -- oh, blah blah blah 17:16:38 CakeProphet: Just use C-j instead of enter. 17:16:44 It'll make life a lot easier for you. 17:17:15 elliott_: my favourite example of Emacsisms is VHDL-mode, which starts a wizard whenever you type a keywords 17:17:17 *a keyword 17:17:23 if you've ever used VHDL, you'll understand why 17:17:29 eh, it'll take quite a bit of time to get used to. I've already got like one hundred other things to get used to if I want to get comfortable with emacs. 17:17:42 do you ever log off elliott_ ? 17:17:44 Emacs is not a fast editor to learn 17:17:46 CakeProphet: Seriously, C-j is a lot easier to get used to than hitting tab all the time or whatever. 17:17:51 ralc: Never. Ever. 17:18:36 so what is the regular tab key? 17:18:37 ralc: Dude, elliott_ is a bot. 17:19:03 CakeProphet: What "regular tab key"? 17:19:05 I think all it does is listen to conversation by the actual elliott and relay back and forth 17:19:10 Emacs is an auto-indenting editor. 17:19:20 CakeProphet: M-x tab-to-tab-stop, if you really happen to need it for whatever reason 17:19:22 The need to insert a literal tab character ever is... zero. 17:19:25 Gregor, yeah i was starting to suspect that 17:19:31 it's rare that you do, though 17:19:40 every time i come to this channel elliott_ is going on about something 17:19:44 or C-q C-h if you need a literal tab character for whatever reason 17:19:54 (say in a string constant in Underload) 17:20:08 ralc: Yes, I do indeed talk a lot when others are talking. 17:20:14 Sometimes this is referred to as conversation. 17:20:18 SOMETIMES 17:20:20 what the hell, you scroll the help buffer with space and delete? 17:20:28 ais523: Or C-q if you want a literal tab... 17:20:35 CakeProphet: No, you scroll the help help with space and delete. 17:20:41 This is because the help help is a freaky transient buffer thing. 17:20:46 hehe it wasn't meant as a bad thing, you keep the channel active like a 500+ channel ^^ 17:20:48 You're only going to need to do it once in your life, so :P 17:20:51 elliott_: well, C-h is a literal tab, in theory the tab button might be bound to something else 17:21:02 ralc: The power of flamewars! 17:21:10 ais523: haha 17:21:16 elliott_: I've done it more than once, I don't use C-h all that often so sometimes I need documentation for it 17:21:25 ralc: I'm actually like five people working in tandem, true story. 17:21:26 elliott_: perhaps you memorize things faster than me. I think I'll be referring to it a lot for a while. 17:21:33 God dammit you already responded to that message elliott three. 17:21:42 Shut the fuck up, elliott one. 17:21:49 Hey, I was here before you. I could change the password right now. 17:21:51 You wouldn't. 17:21:51 I would. 17:21:54 And I will. 17:21:59 Stop it, god dammit, okay, I 17:22:05 I'm chaanging it 17:22:10 -!- elliott_ has left ("oAISJDflkhfgjf"). 17:22:35 whatever i have started, i'm so sorry :D 17:23:34 seems like I'll want to know C-h [acdF] 17:23:48 oh but hey, C-h C-m gives me information on how to order printed Emacs manuals. awesome!! 17:24:02 C-h a and C-h c are probably the most useful in practice 17:24:35 -!- elliott_ has joined. 17:24:40 Elliott One is no longer with us. 17:24:46 Funeral service after the rapture. 17:24:50 Normal service will now continue. 17:25:08 sweet 17:25:10 What is the "kill buffer" command? 17:25:31 CakeProphet: C-x C-k 17:25:32 C-x k 17:25:39 Er, right no C- on the k 17:25:41 (Although it works with it) 17:25:45 Oh 17:25:47 No it doesn't 17:25:53 what does C-x C-k do? 17:26:03 Seems to be a prefix. 17:26:14 most buffer manipulation commands don't have a C- on their second key 17:26:57 oh nevermind, that's apparently not what I wanted. I want to get rid of the second pane that appeared after I used C-h ? and pressed some buttons that turned it into a non-transient thing.... 17:27:10 (lulz...) 17:27:17 I suggest panicking 17:28:48 staring at my emacs window stupidly seems like a better solution... 17:28:51 CakeProphet: C-x 0 removes a pane, or C-x 1 removes all panes but the current one 17:29:05 awww yeah. 17:29:06 buffers and panes exist more or less independently, except that each pane only shows one buffer at a time 17:29:34 generally, you just let buffers accumulate rather than actually killing them, but just show the ones you're using at the moment onscreen 17:29:39 is there like, a systematic way I can learn about all of these commands? Like, are they grouped in any kind of way in the help? 17:29:46 I'm not sure 17:29:54 there's a tutorial somewhere, but I'm not sure how useful it would be 17:30:00 generally, you just let buffers accumulate rather than actually killing them, but just show the ones you're using at the moment onscreen 17:30:04 I kill buffers quite often 17:30:15 I think rarely killing buffers is idiosyncratic 17:30:45 elliott_: well, you have garbage collection sweeps now and again, that's what M-x kill-some-buffers is for 17:30:53 but I generally have one Emacs session per project 17:30:56 that I'm working on 17:31:08 so normally it's rare to kill buffers as irrelevant, unless they're things like compilation output 17:47:28 oh hey c-h c-h does the same thing as c-h ? 17:53:00 01:24:09: How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! 17:55:59 I have the weirdest boner right now. 17:56:13 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:11:13 `addquote How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! I have the weirdest boner right now. 18:11:14 ​425) How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! I have the weirdest boner right now. 18:11:31 That's right, elliott_ gets no credit. 18:11:47 GROSS INACCURACY 18:11:56 But you used two spaces to separate messages so I'll allow it. 18:17:13 my brain hurts. too much emacs documentation. 18:17:36 I'm already reading about mark rings, search rings, and registers. 18:17:56 They are "windows", not "panes". (And what you might call a "window" elsewhere is a "frame" instead.) 18:27:28 -!- ajf|offline has changed nick to ajf. 18:32:51 fizzie: you're a window in the ass 18:44:38 fizzie: What context is this? 18:44:56 In US vernacular, the whole contraption is a window, and it consists of a frame and one or more panes. 18:45:10 (More usually called "windowpanes") 18:45:33 Gregor: The context of Emacs. 18:45:43 lol 18:45:53 I was thinking the real world ;P 18:46:01 "What's that?" 18:46:52 In Finland, they look out of frames (composed of multiple windows). 18:49:37 Things that sad me: In Scheme, (min) is invalid, rather than equal to positive infinity. 18:49:41 (Similarly for (max) and negative infinity.) 18:55:24 Blah, what's the thing to make ratios in Scheme? It isn't / 18:55:37 It's /. 18:55:38 Oh, maybe it's just Chicken Scheme 18:55:39 9/9 18:55:45 Do you mean Scheme or Racket? 18:55:52 Scheme, but Chicken Scheme 18:55:55 Have you changed languages AGAIN in the past day? 18:55:57 SIGH 18:56:22 elliott_: I change languages a lot, but I'm not looking for a One True Language because I doubt it exists 18:56:33 I'm just looking to either use something appropriate for programming, or to have fun 18:56:57 ais523: There is a reason I am talking to Sgeo, and not you. 18:57:03 Obviously my statements don't apply to you. 18:57:19 elliott_: it's more a case of, if your statements aren't generally applicable they're less convincing 18:57:26 as it's a case of "why does that argument apply to me but not him"? 18:57:39 Sgeo: Chicken's "default" numeric tower is just machine-sized integers and floats; there's a (GMP-based) extension that gives it more "Scheme-like" numbers. 18:57:50 Ah 18:57:51 but I suppose I shouldn't even try to be convinced by arguments that aren't aimed at me 18:57:55 ais523: Thankfully I'm not trying to convince anyone! 18:57:59 ais523: Not even Sgeo. 18:58:05 You see, the "SIGH" indicates that I am simply despairing. 18:58:15 I have long ago realised that convincing Sgeo of anything is impossible. 18:59:05 Hmm, Timwi appears to have given up the skin tack and is now just acting how to contact Graue, despite having already asked me and receiving a response... 18:59:16 ais523: also, he wants me to unprotect MediaWiki:Common.css 18:59:23 I can't do that, so I feel I should forward it on to you, so you can decide not to do it 18:59:30 elliott_: don't worry, I can't do it either 18:59:48 * elliott_ logs in to reply 18:59:50 the page is protected directly at the PHP level 19:00:18 because a mistake editing it can make the entire wiki unworkable 19:00:22 heh I got "too many unprocessed floats" from tex 19:00:31 never seen that before 19:00:37 trivial to fix however, adding a clearpage 19:01:40 hmm, what's the equivalent of "typesetting", but for layout on a page rather than fonts? 19:01:55 layoutsetting maybe? 19:02:02 ais523: Typesetting involves layout too. 19:02:05 I don't think that's a real word 19:02:07 elliott_: ah 19:02:07 But you mean what things like InDesign do, right? 19:02:12 is there a word for just the layout portion? 19:02:19 It's... what you do when you're "desktop publishing". 19:02:20 and things like TeX as opposed to Metafont 19:02:22 There's a word, but I've forgotten it. 19:02:33 "PageMakering." :p 19:02:33 yep, I know, and I've forgotten it too 19:02:36 elliott_, what if you do layout without using a computer 19:02:41 PageMakering. Perfect[exclamation mark] 19:02:51 Vorpal: Like I said, it's what you do when you're desktop publishing. 19:02:52 what happened to PageMaker? 19:03:08 Discontinued, it seems. 19:03:16 InDesign is the new thing. 19:03:19 Well. 19:03:22 The upmarket thing. 19:03:23 elliott_, hm. But doesn't desktop publishing involve a computer 19:03:27 In 2004, Adobe announced that development for Adobe PageMaker had ceased but that Adobe would continue to sell and support it. InDesign was presented as the successor product.[11] Upgrades from PageMaker to InDesign 2.0 and (after the release of InDesign CS) a "PageMaker Plug-in Pack" were offered, containing PageMaker-specific features and help topics, complimentary Myriad Pro fonts and templates. 19:03:29 OK, the new thing. 19:03:41 Vorpal: What I said is in no way implying that desktop publishing is the ONLY way to do that thing. 19:03:50 elliott_, what about that other one, Quark Express or something? 19:03:59 I don't think it was Quark, Qark maybe? 19:04:09 QuarkXPress. 19:04:17 hm 19:04:21 elliott_, is that one dead? 19:04:22 ais523: I think it's just "layout [creation/etc.]" 19:04:30 Vorpal: http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=quark+express&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 19:04:30 hmm, perhaps 19:04:42 Well, that was freakish and bizarre. 19:04:56 I did not finish my linear algebra homework. *But*, I got an almost-perfect grade on it. 19:05:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_layout seems to be talking about the thing, but doesn't seem to contain any particular word for it. 19:05:19 Let's call it "layoutificatifiing". 19:05:21 Just to annoy ais523. 19:05:22 I'm not going to complain. 19:05:29 ("deals with the arrangement and style treatment of elements (content) on a page".) 19:06:03 huh the weird blueish kind-of-category thing in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuarkXPress lists LyX as DTP 19:06:14 Scribus yes, but not really Lyx 19:06:16 LyX* 19:06:33 lyx is just a GUI for working with latex 19:06:40 Gregor: Oh my dear God, someone actually outdid JSMIPS. 19:06:40 LaTeX is DTP. 19:06:51 elliott_, yes but LaTeX is not listed there 19:06:53 pikhq_: welcome to earlier today 19:06:55 Gregor: If it weren't Fabrice Bellard, I'd imagine you'd be horribly depressed. 19:06:58 elliott_, nor is texmacs 19:06:59 Vorpal: Well, DTP is WYSIWYG. 19:07:05 elliott_: Yes, yes, I had a final. Shaddup. 19:07:05 Vorpal: So LaTeX is not really standard DTP. 19:07:06 But LyX is. 19:07:10 right 19:07:16 TeXmacs is a semantic tool. 19:07:18 So it is not really DTP. 19:07:23 elliott_, LyX is not really about layout, it is more about semantics too 19:07:23 As you can't really do much layout at all apart from separately... 19:07:26 It's not WYSIWYG. 19:07:31 Vorpal: Sure, but you can style it more directly than TeXmacs. 19:07:35 elliott_, hm okay 19:07:38 LyX officially is WYSIWYM. 19:07:41 elliott_, well yeah I can insert raw latex 19:07:43 Anyway TeXmacs is less popular, so. 19:08:04 fizzie: Translation: "What you see isn't what you get because our rendering sucks" :-) 19:08:15 TeXmacs is actually quite close to WYSIWYG in a literal sense. 19:08:17 elliott_: No, it's the paradigm! 19:08:23 fizzie: PARADIIIIIGM 19:08:30 elliott_, I mean, the only layout this document I'm writing atm has is a clearpage, and only because latex bugged out on too many unprocessed floats halfway 19:08:35 ais523: " I’m pretty sure ais523 would get tired of that very quickly. I’ll try e-mailing Graue. Thanks! — Timwi 19:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)" 19:08:49 ais523: OK, why on earth would Timwi want to edit the stylesheet on a regular basis? 19:08:51 fizzie: Translation: "What you see isn't what you get because our rendering sucks" :-) <-- actually that's a feature 19:08:57 and I quite like it that way 19:09:06 elliott_, I get a font that works better for the screen there 19:09:16 and another one that works better for print when I generate the pdf 19:09:23 so I quite like it this way 19:09:53 I CAN HAS FINISHED SEMESTER 19:10:16 pikhq_, err in English semester is the opposite of holidays right? 19:10:31 Vorpal: not exactly 19:10:32 because in Swedish semester = long holiday (like summer break). 19:10:40 University terms are divided into semesters 19:10:41 so the English sense always confuse me 19:10:46 but yes, in that semesters and holidays don't coexist 19:11:01 ais523, oh and it can also be that you go on a vacation - "åka på semester" 19:11:08 Vorpal: In most contexts, a "semester" is a division of the school year. 19:11:17 (to add to the confusion, a semester can persist across parts of multiple terms, e.g. at Birmingham University, a semester is one term, plus one week of another term) 19:11:23 pikhq_, in Sweden it means either long summer break or vacation 19:12:00 WYSIWYG is impossible nowadays, because not all printers are identical 19:12:11 Vorpal: And a long summer break is precisely what a semester isn't in English. 19:12:18 and it's even worse if designing for screen 19:12:18 ais523, oh right we have "läsperioder" (study periods, though literally "readingperiods"), 4 per year. One ends one week after xmas holidays end yes 19:12:23 Vorpal: The "desktop publishing software" template-portal-whatever-those-are-called is a bit weird anyway; they list "PDF-XChange", which is primarily just a PDF viewer, with some kludgy support for changing/adding text and splanting in new images on top of existing content. 19:12:34 ais523: A reasonable approximation is *doable*, though. 19:12:38 Vorpal: that sounds much like UK "semester", though 19:12:42 pikhq_: on paper, yes 19:12:48 on screen, it's a really bad idea 19:12:55 Vorpal: And a long summer break is precisely what a semester isn't in English. <-- exactly, that utterly confuses me 19:13:01 ais523: PNGs are pretty consistent 19:13:02 as everyone who does that ends up with something that doesn't reflow and normally has a horizontal scrollbar 19:13:03 up to gamma 19:13:06 (You can't even delete/move/insert pages without buying the PRO version.) 19:13:11 ais523: that only applies to HTML 19:13:14 On screen, either accept that you're displaying an imitation of paper on screen, or give up. 19:13:22 fizzie, "splanting"? 19:13:29 elliott_: PNGs aren't exactly designing for screen 19:13:33 Vorpal: Inserting. 19:13:37 ah 19:13:41 and if they don't have the same res as the screen, they may well need a horizontal scrollbar too 19:13:45 fizzie, is "splanting" a real word? 19:13:45 reflowing is generally just /better/ 19:14:03 ais523: PNGs are pretty consistent <-- not without an ICC profile 19:14:14 Vorpal: No. 19:14:17 Vorpal: He did specify "modulo gamma". 19:14:18 it seems like most of the C- keys in emacs are kind of.. archaic. 19:14:23 except a few. 19:14:43 CakeProphet: Well, emacs is a fairly archaic editor. 19:14:56 pikhq_, ICC is more than just plain gamma value. It contains primaries and so on too 19:15:07 and then a lot of the useful stuff is tucked away in C-x 19:15:38 the C- keys are mostly stuff you use all the time if you don't have arrow or navigation keys on your keyboards 19:15:56 although, say, C-a is much easier to press than Home on a typical keyboard, with the result that I use it in all sorts of programs nowadays 19:16:01 ...do people not have those? 19:16:11 CakeProphet, they didn't use to I guess 19:16:20 I do, but they're tiny and stuck round the edges of my laptop, as there isn't really room for them 19:16:23 CakeProphet: Those existing is a relatively modern thing. 19:16:25 CakeProphet, anyway you can customise key bindings fairly easily in your ~/.emacs 19:16:25 and a pain to find in the dark 19:16:26 that's what I mean, like... why not change that instead of keeping it that way? 19:16:29 -!- Mannerisk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:16:36 vi was *also* designed with that in mind. 19:16:41 kcab 19:17:12 vi and Emacs aren't too different; the major difference is that vi Esc and i map to Emacs hold ctrl and release ctrl 19:17:20 and ofc all the other keybindings are different too 19:17:24 but that's the major difference in principle 19:17:45 ais523: Also, Emacs is pretty universally extensible. 19:18:00 ais523, also vi isn't really scriptable. Sure vim is, but vi is not vim 19:18:07 Even TECO Emacs was extensible. 19:18:18 pikhq_: sometimes that's a bad thing; I was once given a CGI script written in elisp 19:18:22 to work out 19:18:24 ais523, awesome 19:18:29 ais523, also, by who? 19:18:31 ais523: It's both an advantage and a disadvantage. 19:18:35 When using emacs on a terminal over ssh, I use C-e instead of End because end doesn't work 19:18:38 in the end, I rewrote it as a standalone program in Perl, given that it had no reason to be written in elisp and no reason to be a CGI script 19:18:41 Vorpal: and at work 19:18:53 Sgeo, uh. Presumably your terminal emulator locally sucks then 19:18:59 I used end key in various places over ssh 19:19:03 worse still, it required manual intervention to run properly 19:19:06 with no issues 19:19:09 Vorpal: Either that or the remote end's termcap sucks. 19:19:11 as in, run the script, change the script, run the script, change the script, etc 19:19:21 ais523, waaaat 19:19:41 Sgeo: you can use emacs in a terminal? 19:19:43 DJGPP Emacs seems to parse End as meaning M-> rather than C-e 19:19:47 as in, end of document, not end of line 19:19:52 CakeProphet, isn't that the normal way to use it? 19:19:57 CakeProphet: you can, emacs -nw 19:20:18 or it loads like that by default if it doesn't have access to anything that would let it draw a window, as is commonly the case over telnet or ssh without -X 19:20:22 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:20:36 CakeProphet, the X support is fairly recent. Not more than a few decades old 19:20:36 I see... 19:20:49 (at most) 19:20:51 `addquote CakeProphet, the X support is fairly recent. Not more than a few decades old 19:20:53 ​426) CakeProphet, the X support is fairly recent. Not more than a few decades old 19:21:05 CakeProphet: Emacs is 35 years old. 19:21:07 ais523, okay yeah that was slightly silly 19:21:19 pikhq_, ooh anniversary 19:21:22 pikhq_: Emacs generally, or GNU Emacs? 19:21:26 or was that rounded? 19:21:28 Given that X11 is only a little more than two decades old... 19:21:36 ais523: No, it loads like that if it doesn't have access to anything that would let it draw a graphical frame. When in Emacs, speak as the... eumuchs do? 19:21:38 Deewiant, yes, newfangled stuff 19:21:50 I think I interpret "recent" to be a completely different thing in the context of computing. 19:21:54 fizzie: but you're not /in/ Emacs, as you're loading it 19:21:59 ais523: That's counting from the first functioning TECO Emacs. 19:22:03 Vorpal: Sure, but saying "X support is fairly recent" should imply it's recent compared to X :-P 19:22:06 ah, OK 19:22:07 ais523: But it's Emacs that's doing the loading-of-itself. 19:22:16 CakeProphet, ah 19:22:29 but hey, now that I know I can use emacs in telnet, I no longer have an excuse to use pico. :) 19:22:31 *GNU* Emacs is 26 years old. 19:22:44 haha 19:22:47 hmm, I'm surprised that it was gnuised after only 9 years 19:22:48 pikhq_, so older than X? 19:22:55 although it was pretty much the first thing GNU did 19:23:24 so do you guys have any recommendations for my .emacs? 19:23:40 I recommend a file, as opposed to, say, a pipe. 19:23:43 Vorpal: The X Windowing System is older by a couple of years. 19:23:47 interesting thought experiment. Figure out what will happen to various organisations when their leading figure retires. 19:23:58 For example: What will happen to GNU when RMS retires or dies. 19:23:58 Vorpal: X11 is younger by a year. 19:24:14 CakeProphet: (load-file "/home/ais523/esoteric/intercal/ick-0.27/etc/intercal.el") (load-file "/home/ais523/esoteric/esolangs.el") (esolangs-recognize-extensions) 19:24:18 I think it will survive probably. Apple without Steve Jobs is less certain 19:24:28 Linux without Linus Torvalds? Chaos or? 19:24:38 who would have the final word and so on 19:24:41 GNU without RMS? Probably not a hell of a lot different. 19:24:44 CakeProphet: note that you'll either have to create a user account for me on your computer, or else change the paths 19:24:55 pikhq_, indeed 19:24:59 You can have a directory in /home without an account. 19:25:07 pikhq_, the other two examples would be more interesting 19:25:12 ais523: do you know where I can get those files? 19:25:18 more seriously, (global-font-lock-mode 1) is a nice option, as is (setq visible-bell t) 19:25:28 CakeProphet: they were on pastebin.ca, which is down now 19:25:34 intercal.el should be easy enough to find, at least 19:25:36 give me a moment 19:25:37 ais523, sprunge them 19:25:57 pikhq_, so what about Apple without Jobs or Linux without Torvals? 19:25:59 Valds* 19:26:01 gah 19:26:03 Torvalds* 19:26:26 http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/blobs/raw/6a0c3bba084cf42972f43dcd2f92b83f3e81c3ae/intercal.el 19:26:36 Linux without Torvalds would probably devolve unto the maintainer of one of the major subsystems. 19:26:44 pikhq_, ah 19:26:47 Apple without Jobs would do about as well as Apple did without Jobs in the 90s. 19:26:55 That is to say, "be totally fucked". 19:26:55 pikhq_, you mean badly? 19:26:58 right 19:27:14 pikhq_, further ones: Perl without Larry Wall, Python without Guido van Rossum (spelling?), OpenBSD without Theo de Radt (spelling?) 19:27:18 Heh: "Version 13, the first public release, was made on March 20, 1985. The first widely distributed version of GNU Emacs was 15.34, which appeared later in 1985. Versions 2 to 12 never existed. Earlier versions of GNU Emacs had been numbered "1.x.x", but sometime after version 1.12 the decision was made to drop the "1", as it was thought the major number would never change." 19:27:18 ais523: more interested in the esolangs one, actually. but I'll add this one too. 19:27:32 Vorpal: Fucked, fucked, fucked, IMO. 19:27:36 the esolangs one is a little unfinished, let me sprunge it 19:27:53 pikhq_, right. 19:28:11 pikhq_, freebsd has a board of trustees or something like that right? 19:28:21 Yeah, FreeBSD doesn't do the benevolent dictator bit. 19:28:30 pikhq_, what about NetBSD? 19:28:35 wait, it is fucked already 19:28:42 Linux is one of the few projects with a benevolent dictator with a lot of structure *besides* that, making filling that gap pretty easy. 19:29:07 I see Perl existing with Larry Wall in its current state, since it's a pretty useful language. However, new incarnations of Perl may be fucked... since that's basically what is happening to Perl 6. 19:29:14 NetBSD has a Board of Directors. 19:29:18 right 19:29:51 what other projects risk dying? 19:30:05 major ones I mean 19:30:11 Wikipedia without Jimbo! (just kidding) 19:30:22 hm... I think they would survive quite the same 19:30:39 what about Ubuntu without Mark Shuttleworth (sp?) 19:30:54 though in that case it is lack of money 19:30:59 What are you talking about? Jimmy Wales makes every single edit to Wikipedia. He even pretends to be multiple users on talk pages. 19:31:02 Ubuntu without Mark Shuttleworth would change drastically. He bankrolls the whole thing. 19:31:11 pikhq_, right 19:31:37 ...so, Ubuntu users, do you guys actually use the new Unity crap? 19:31:44 I switched it off. 19:31:53 CakeProphet, I use 10.04. Long term support. 19:31:55 :P 19:31:55 CakeProphet: I haven't upgraded to a version that has it 19:32:05 ah. nevermind then. well 19:32:05 Slackware would literally stop without Volkerding. 19:32:18 pikhq_, interesting family name 19:32:18 He isn't the benevolent dictator, he is the sole developer. 19:32:19 hm 19:32:29 the latest release has this horrid new Mac-like interface. Kill it when you encounter it. 19:32:32 pikhq_, right, I guess no one else would step up 19:33:19 Though if someone actually *did* step up, it'd keep going just fine. Slackware's set up such that it only really takes a single person to manage it. 19:33:46 pikhq_, that must be a smart setup, how does it work? 19:34:19 How about Mozilla without the lizard? 19:34:37 ooh lyx 2.0 released 19:34:42 that is a big jump in version number 19:34:46 I wonder what changed 19:34:50 :D 19:34:52 fizzie, nice one 19:35:06 (I presume they have some sort of Allosaurus-style setup at Mozilla.) 19:35:11 LyX 1.6.10 released. (May 9, 2011) 19:35:11 LyX 2.0.0 released. (May 8, 2011) 19:35:16 these guys 19:35:23 wat 19:35:23 take stable support seriously 19:35:31 awesome 19:35:48 kind of like distros in a bit 19:36:02 -!- cheater79 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:36:19 It's actually just a very, very simple UNIXy setup. Each package has a shell script that builds it and creates a .txz. All packages are unpatched. 19:36:39 Most of the time, to make a new release he just needs to bump versions, build, test, release. 19:36:51 pikhq_, no patches anywhere? Really hm 19:36:59 Vorpal: Sorry, not "all". 19:37:01 "Almost all". 19:37:05 ah 19:37:16 pikhq_, some stuff will simply need patching 19:37:28 but yeah I remember slackware didn't patch icons and so on 19:37:32 nor does arch of course 19:38:03 http://wiki.lyx.org/LyX/NewInLyX20/#advsearch <-- this looks quite interesting 19:38:11 It's not so much "clever" as it is "supremely lazy". 19:38:29 serching with regexp and formatting and what not 19:38:40 ooh and FINALLY spell check on the fly 19:39:52 Based on the new-feature overview, LyX 2.0 doesn't sound *that* much like a radical change. (But of course they have to bump up the major version number at some point, and certainly there's quite a large number of them small-ish changes.) 19:40:35 fizzie, I think there are internal architectural changes too 19:40:57 also new backends 19:41:25 CakeProphet: http://sprunge.us/AQhd is esolangs.el (usable but still unfinished) 19:41:44 fizzie, of course since iirc xetex doesn't support microtyping yet I think I'll stick with pdflatex for the time being 19:47:56 -!- elliott_ has joined. 19:48:04 although, say, C-a is much easier to press than Home on a typical keyboard, with the result that I use it in all sorts of programs nowadays 19:48:07 C-a/C-e are great 19:48:23 ais523: ok, I'm now convinced that Timwi doesn't know what minor edits are for 19:48:25 # (diff) (hist) . . m Talk:Main Page‎; 19:08 . . (+170) . . Timwi (Talk | contribs) 19:48:27 that's adding a whole comment 19:48:40 ais523: thank you very much. :) 19:48:42 the easiest one would be C-j 19:48:46 cuz it uses both hands 19:48:49 CakeProphet: what did he answer? 19:48:59 quintopia: pretty much no chord uses both hands for me 19:49:10 oh, esolangs.el 19:49:12 how useless :P 19:49:12 I type pretty much any single chord one-handed unless it's physically impossible 19:49:32 using both hands only for the purpose of typing faster as each can cover a different area of the keyboard 19:49:49 how can you type C-j like that? 19:49:52 I have gotten into the habit of using specific keys 19:50:05 ais523: i need my chords to be reasonable on both a netbook keyboard and a regular keyboard, so two-handed chords are frequently requiring of less contortion 19:50:10 left control, right shift, left alt (although my right alt is actually an alt-gr, so that's necessarily) 19:50:33 this thing doesn't even have right control 19:50:38 lol 19:50:42 my right alt is compose 19:51:05 quintopia: my right alt is technically induces dead keys rather than being compose 19:51:08 19:16:26: that's what I mean, like... why not change that instead of keeping it that way? 19:51:08 but it's the same principle 19:51:11 and break people's muscle memory? 19:51:13 I don't type normally so I can't do right-handed combinations very well. I have to use both hands for those. 19:51:27 Are you a hunt-and-pecker? 19:51:27 you're _meant_ to use both hands to chord 19:51:44 19:17:12: vi and Emacs aren't too different; the major difference is that vi Esc and i map to Emacs hold ctrl and release ctrl 19:51:48 elliott_: they're breaking muscle memory either way, because I have tons of muscle memory from every other text editor I've encountered that doesn't apply to emacs. 19:51:50 except that, using vi like that is a misuse 19:52:03 CakeProphet: You're not an Emacs user (before now), so they have no responsibility to you as far as muscle memory goes. 19:52:08 elliott_: actually, no it isn't 19:52:12 Annoying your users is generally a bad idea. 19:52:13 coppro: not really. I just memorize how to type words, pretty much 19:52:18 ais523: Yes it is, in the sense that it's inefficient and vi users will laugh at you. 19:52:21 you don't go into insert mode when you're moving the cursor around, etc 19:52:29 just like you don't generally let go of control when you're moving the cursor around 19:52:31 I type each word a partiulcar way. I mainly stick to my index and middle finger while typing but I keep pretty good typing speeds. 19:53:20 how do you type partiulcar? 19:53:29 ..good one. :P 19:53:59 19:19:41: Sgeo: you can use emacs in a terminal? 19:54:00 19:19:52: CakeProphet, isn't that the normal way to use it? 19:54:02 no, no it's not 19:54:04 actually re-typing partiulcar requires a little more thought and slows down my typing speed. 19:54:12 (it's a perfectly accepted way but by no means the most common) 19:54:18 (at least only counting local use) 19:55:24 * elliott_ reads Vorpal seriously wonder whether Apple will survive without Steve Jobs. 19:55:39 Yes, a tremendously profitable and popular company with an immense brand identity will collapse because its CEO dies. 19:55:52 The shareholders will just say "well, guess that's over then" go home. 19:56:24 19:25:28: CakeProphet: they were on pastebin.ca, which is down now 19:56:26 false 19:56:27 elliott_: it'll probably lose a huge chunk of its stock price if Jobs leave, not because the company is necessarily doomed but because shareholders are ridiculous 19:56:30 elliott_: it's back up again? 19:56:35 * CakeProphet reads elliott comment and dissect on everything that was said recently and not-so-recently. 19:56:43 * elliott_ reads this line. 19:56:46 wow, it is as well 19:56:49 yay! 19:57:14 19:27:14: pikhq_, further ones: Perl without Larry Wall, Python without Guido van Rossum (spelling?), OpenBSD without Theo de Radt (spelling?) 19:57:21 the other slepp.ca sites seem down, though 19:57:25 http://wiki.lyx.org/uploads/LyX/NewInLyX20/themes.png <-- a lot of the icons in the new themes don't really work well 19:57:29 Python will survive, it's too boring to die 19:57:37 they'll just add more bearocracy 19:57:40 ruled by grizzlies 19:57:41 elliott_, hah 19:57:54 OpenBSD might die, but OpenSSH won't 19:58:02 Perl won't die because... corporations, dude 19:58:11 ActiveState aren't going to let Perl di 19:58:12 e 19:58:15 because they make money off it 19:58:18 hm 19:58:27 elliott_, you know what happened to Apple during the 90s 19:58:28 Same goes for every company with software written in Perl, just indirectly 19:58:36 Vorpal: yah, they had a lull. 19:58:55 Vorpal: It wasn't so much that Jobs was a genius as whoeveritwas was an idiot. 19:59:43 hm right 20:00:11 19:28:42: Linux is one of the few projects with a benevolent dictator with a lot of structure *besides* that, making filling that gap pretty easy. 20:00:17 Linux development has a lot of structure? 20:00:20 yep 20:00:25 elliott_, of course 20:00:27 I'm not sure about that. 20:00:30 Informal structure, yes. 20:00:36 Formal, not so much. 20:00:36 I think part of the reason git was invented was so that its development process could work 20:00:50 it has a lot of people with their own repos accepting certain sorts of patches, which Linus pulls from and does the final approval 20:01:01 Yes, but that's hardly structure. 20:01:06 That's more lack of structure. 20:01:17 A bunch of people do things and then Linus (the dictator) decides to pull them in. 20:01:28 elliott_: compare it to, say, the NetHack devteam, or C-INTERCAL's development 20:01:30 And also, some people get flamed less and flame more on the mailing list, because they've been there a long time. 20:01:33 Linus isn't pulling patches from the general public 20:01:38 ais523, the latter is one person? 20:01:42 he's pulling it from other people who pull patches from other people 20:01:46 Vorpal: technically two, nowadays 20:01:48 Vorpal: It's one person and one idiot. :P 20:01:51 oh right 20:01:53 ais523: No, but he's not pulling patches from a preset group of people. 20:01:58 he is, I thought 20:02:00 forgot about esr 20:02:04 ais523: What you're describing to me is a /lack/ of structure. 20:02:06 and those are pulling from preset groups too 20:02:12 ais523: It's not /dev/random, but there's no hierarchy. 20:02:20 It's all basically the whim of Linus in the end. 20:02:33 I don't see how Linux would survive with its current structure if Linus died or stepped down. 20:02:37 elliott_, an amazingly good whim so far 20:02:53 Either someone else would step up -- very unlikely, it's a lot of work etc. 20:02:57 Or it'd get more formal. 20:03:03 (think Linux Foundation) 20:03:24 (an organisation that exists to give Torvalds a paycheck) 20:03:28 elliott_, Allan Cox or someone like that could step up. 20:03:51 elliott_: The subsystem maintainers actually have a large portion of the workload. I suspect that one of them would reasonably step up, and it'd only be a question of which one. 20:04:05 Vorpal: I dunno about that -- Wikipedia'd for THE UPPER HAND IN THE ARGUMENT -- "On 28 July 2009, Cox walked away from the TTY layer, which he still maintained, after receiving criticism from Torvalds.[2][3]" 20:04:10 Doesn't seem like a good dictator ;) 20:04:12 elliott_: a sentient AI created by Torvalds could step up. 20:04:13 ah 20:04:18 pikhq_: elliott_ doesn't believe there are subsystem maintainers, even though I've tried to tell him at least three times 20:04:22 elliott_, well okay, Andrew Morton then 20:04:26 ais523: I know there are subsystem maintainers. 20:04:30 (And no, I don't see you telling me that.) 20:04:35 And, yeah, it has hardly any *formal* structure. Just a lot of informal structure. 20:04:36 then why do you keep ignoring me when I say there are? 20:04:42 ais523: Because you haven't been saying that. 20:04:55 I said Linus pulls from a set group of people 20:04:57 (You might /think/ you've been saying that.) 20:05:07 ais523: Yep, but that's way too vague to count. 20:05:15 If you were trying to make that point you should have just made it directly... 20:05:15 not really 20:05:24 ...I'd say sentient AI is the best hope for the survival of future Linux. 20:05:35 wat 20:05:48 CakeProphet, what's next? Torvalds brain in a jar? 20:05:51 have Linux maintained by AI of course. 20:05:58 an AI has better things to do 20:05:59 hey 20:06:05 let's get a spam filter to accept or reject linux patches 20:06:09 based on all of linus' decisions 20:06:34 elliott_, I kind of doubt that would work well, but it would be an interesting experiment 20:06:38 spam filter? What about the Nigerian developers? 20:06:40 to see how well it coincides 20:06:49 In essence, Linus is not a major developer on Linux. He's the guy merging in git branches. This structure is not really too hard to maintain with the existence of other people who would be trusted in that same position. 20:06:54 CakeProphet, he meant bayesian filter 20:06:54 It's just a matter of selecting one. 20:07:19 Vorpal: ...tough crowd. 20:07:53 elliott_, also linux wouldn't fail. You said too many depend on Perl. Well even more so for linux 20:07:54 wah wah WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 20:07:59 Vorpal: I never said it would fail. 20:08:03 indeed 20:08:09 elliott_: would you really want Bayes in charge of Linux development, given how it acted in Agora? 20:08:12 I said that it doesn't have the kind of structure that Linus could just disappear and it'd all tick fine with not much of a change. 20:08:21 ais523: Are you suggesting that Bayes acted anything other than wonderfully? 20:08:23 ais523, ooh tell me about this 20:08:30 Vorpal: Me and comex wrote a bot to play Agora. 20:08:31 It was awesome. 20:08:35 It used SpamBayes to vote on proposals. 20:08:40 It played the AAA with brute-force. 20:08:40 elliott_, heh 20:08:41 The end. 20:08:47 AAA? 20:08:51 Agoran Agricultural Association. 20:08:57 elliott_, also spambayes is "meh" 20:09:00 It played optimally, which saved me the effort of working out how to play myself. 20:09:05 Vorpal: Who cares, it's Python. 20:09:08 That's the important thing. :p 20:09:10 right 20:09:13 Can't "import spamassassin". 20:09:21 elliott_, how can you brute force AAA? 20:09:25 Vorpal: they had to take the author names off all the data they fed to it 20:09:29 how does AAA work 20:09:33 because otherwise it just rejected everything by comex 20:09:35 ais523: Yes; otherwise it did too well. 20:09:41 ais523, heh? 20:09:49 Vorpal: AAA is gone now and I never understood it, so. 20:10:07 Vorpal: Oh, it also made its own proposals. 20:10:11 Vorpal: With a Markov chain of accepted proposals. 20:10:19 oh god 20:10:22 I... don't think one ever got adopted. 20:10:28 elliott_, indeed 20:10:34 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:10:39 god bayes was awesome, makes me wish partnerships still existed 20:10:48 elliott_, anyway how did you decide which ones were ham and which ones were spam when training it 20:10:56 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 20:11:03 Partnerships were pretty awesome. 20:11:04 Vorpal: which ones passed and which ones failed 20:11:17 Vorpal: http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/the-agoran-agricultural-association 20:11:20 elliott_, do you gain something from voting for passing ones? 20:11:58 Vorpal: Bayes was three years ago. 20:12:06 A lot has changed; your question has no concrete answer. 20:12:09 Timeframise it. 20:12:13 "If this contract is a contest, the SoA is its Contestmaster." <-- wat 20:12:15 ais523: ugh, that wiki 20:12:24 Vorpal: Contracts had to be voted in as contests. 20:12:24 elliott_: I disliked it too 20:12:27 elliott_, did you gain* 20:12:29 then 20:12:32 I only tolerated it because of a scam I'd been planning for months 20:12:36 Vorpal: Don't remember. 20:12:38 ais523: haha 20:13:05 ais523: hmm, you started using it after eso-std.org went bust and my report formatter output thusly went offline, right? 20:13:05 oh wait 20:13:10 It was because someone else got elected 20:13:12 and decided to use it 20:13:14 because they're terrible 20:13:18 was it Murphy? 20:13:23 I think it was Murphy 20:13:30 http://nomic.bob-space.com/agoralog.aspx?contract=Notary 20:13:40 good to know the Gigantic Single Point of Failure is still working 20:13:42 bob-space is still up? 20:13:45 sure would suck if we still used it 20:13:54 wow, is that server-side VBScript? 20:13:57 ah, no it isn't 20:13:58 with that 20:14:08 bob-space.com sure is 20:14:10 just not the nomic. 20:14:17 During the voting period of a Proposal, a Farmer CAN once Harvest 20:14:17 the ID number of that proposal. As soon as possible after doing so, 20:14:17 the SoA CAN and SHALL award that Farmer 2 y-axis points if the proposal was Ordinary, 20:14:17 or 4 x-axis points if it was Democratic. 20:14:19 err 20:14:22 "The Daily Funny is your daily (or weekly, or monthly, depending on how often I update it) dose of humor. I post jokes, funny pictures, hilarious videos, and links to humorous things on the web here. Some of it you may have heard/seen before, but I'm sure you'll find something here to chuckle at. One other note: I try to keep all the humor on the Daily Funny family friendly - no dirty jokes here." 20:14:24 and I think it is, C# doesn't use "sub" as a keyword like that 20:14:29 I'm too scared to click. 20:14:30 it may be VB.NET 20:14:34 elliott_, okay you know what, learning dwarffortress is easier :P 20:14:43 top two titles: "Converting the Heathen Bear" "Biblical History of the Internet" 20:14:44 elliott_, this stuff is pretty nonsense 20:14:50 Vorpal: no it's not 20:14:59 Vorpal: Ordinary proposals let you vote on them multiple times 20:15:02 Democratic proposals didn't 20:15:06 points used to be a complex number 20:15:13 and CAN is RFC-jargon imported by Agora 20:15:40 well yes the RFC stuff I know 20:16:08 elliott_, actually it is MUST/SHOULD/MAY (plus inverses), I don't seem to remember any CAN 20:16:22 Vorpal: we also have SHALL 20:16:30 ais523: remember when we told everyone that relying on bobthj's site was a terrible idea? 20:16:32 good times, good times 20:16:41 elliott_, so you use SHALL/?/CAN? 20:16:50 also, when the entire history of the PBA turned out to be wrong every several weeks because of bugs in my script? 20:16:51 good times, good times 20:16:57 elliott_: counterargument: if we were still using it, BobTHJ might have made it work 20:17:05 ais523: did it ever truly work? 20:17:12 anyway, I wasn't saying that because it's down 20:17:43 Vorpal: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html#rule-2152 20:17:55 elliott_, why were points complex? They should be quaternions 20:18:08 they aren't any more 20:18:11 but they used to be 20:18:30 anyway, I went to effort finding that link, click it :P 20:18:33 elliott_, what are they now? Vectors? 20:18:37 Vorpal: integers 20:18:38 elliott_, and I did 20:18:40 in fact, naturals, I think 20:18:41 elliott_, boring 20:18:45 According to RFC2119, there's {MUST,REQUIRED,SHALL}, {MUST NOT,SHALL NOT}, {SHOULD,RECOMMENDED}, {SHOULD NOT,NOT RECOMMENDED} and {MAY,OPTIONAL}, where the grouped things mean the same. 20:19:00 Vorpal: no it isn't, you can have a "DEPRECATED action that you MAY but CANNOT do" 20:19:10 Vorpal: I don't get why everyone found the AAA so complex, anyway; it's quite simple by nomic standards 20:19:12 which means that, you should feel bad about doing it, and doing it violates no rules, but you simply can't 20:19:13 and quite grindy, too 20:19:22 and yet many people didn't put in the effort to read it 20:19:27 ais523: I concluded it was trivial since aaa.py was only about thirty lines 20:19:59 Vorpal: no it isn't, you can have a "DEPRECATED action that you MAY but CANNOT do" <-- err 20:20:02 elliott_, I meant the score 20:20:05 oh 20:20:15 Vorpal: well we recently went on an appeal spree after the entire game imploded. 20:20:20 elliott_, anyway how can you have "DEPRECATED action that you MAY but CANNOT do" 20:20:38 (after ais523 deregistered in a huff because he had to read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory lest he violate the rules) 20:20:46 Vorpal: simple 20:20:53 Vorpal: read the rule 20:20:57 note that none of them contradict 20:21:14 (after ais523 deregistered in a huff because he had to read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory lest he violate the rules) <--- .... 20:21:34 Vorpal: well we recently went on an appeal spree after the entire game imploded. <-- it imploded? 20:21:36 Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face 20:21:43 it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged 20:21:50 and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother 20:21:58 ais523, ah... 20:22:04 ais523, interesting example 20:22:08 (after ais523 deregistered in a huff because he had to read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory lest he violate the rules) <--- .... 20:22:08 ais523, is she fat? 20:22:10 Why the ...? 20:22:11 Vorpal: no 20:22:17 elliott_, the weirdness :P 20:22:22 `addquote Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother ais523, ah... ais523, interesting example ais523, is she fat? 20:22:22 elliott_: actually it was a .... 20:22:24 ​427) Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother ais523, ah... ais523, interesting example 20:22:32 ais523: no, it was a ..., that formed an entire sentence by itself 20:22:33 argh HackEgo 20:22:37 `delquote ​427 20:22:39 No output. 20:22:40 guess it's too long :( 20:22:48 elliott_, I only asked because he mentioned it 20:22:57 elliott_: you could remove the repeated bits 20:23:39 Or replace with <> and assume everyone else assumes it automatically uses the previous nick. 20:24:19 fizzie: is that a Perlism? 20:24:31 `quote 427 20:24:32 ​427) Vorpal: it's like... say if you, in the next three seconds, called my mother fat to her face it's not illegal to do that, but it's socially discouraged and yet it's impossible, because you don't live within three seconds of my mother ais523, ah... ais523, interesting example 20:24:40 elliott_, you failed to remove it 20:24:55 ais523: It might be slightly Perlish, since Perl does have the default filehandle <> thing. 20:25:18 fizzie, you made me think of short-tags in html instead of perl 20:25:27 fizzie: I was thinking more of // for repeat last regex 20:25:38 Vorpal: delquote is broken 20:25:42 so we all thought of different things 20:25:59 `run find . -iname '*quotes*' 20:26:00 No output. 20:26:05 `run find . -iname '*quote*' 20:26:06 No output. 20:26:08 fail 20:26:19 elliott_, I would sed the db if I knew where it was 20:26:29 `help 20:26:30 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 20:26:45 why not just revert to before the quote was added? 20:26:50 or that 20:27:05 `run ls quote 20:27:06 `run ls quotes 20:27:07 No output. 20:27:07 elliott_ can do that 20:27:07 ​quotes 20:27:15 bbl 20:30:37 `quote 427 20:30:38 No output. 20:30:41 (sed'd.) 20:31:10 fizzie: Wanna figure out why delquote is broken? :P 20:31:48 No, but someone might make a `unquote command that does "sed -ie '$d' quotes", that might be useful for "okay, forget the last one" sort of operations. 20:31:57 `url bin/delquote 20:31:59 ​http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/delquote 20:32:00 But but but it's only a few lines. 20:32:13 That unquote thing is a good idea, but it still bugs me that delquote is broken; it worked just recently. 20:32:15 ew, perl mode underlines arrays and hashes. 20:32:22 CakeProphet: use cperl-mode 20:32:32 how is this achieved... 20:32:36 M-x cperl-mode 20:32:44 You can make it default for .pl files in your ~/.emacs, but I'm too lazy to remember how. 20:33:16 hmmm, the background color is better than the underline I guess. 20:33:27 is it just a different theme or is it completely different? 20:33:36 It's very different. 20:33:40 a mode would be completely different 20:33:48 It's different in that perl-mode sucks and cperl-mode doesn't. 20:33:49 Perl-in-Emacs was a topic not many days ago; both perl-mode and cperl-mode have their own shortcomings. 20:33:51 HTH. 20:34:07 fizzie: well a perfect perl mode is impossible :) 20:34:18 well, in general Perl is a difficult language to accomodate. 20:34:31 CakeProphet, in general it can't be done 20:34:34 CakeProphet, TC 20:34:34 ...because it's awesome. 20:34:48 CakeProphet, perl has TC parsing 20:35:01 Perl is a difficult language to accommodate and stomach. 20:35:15 yes, and most syntax highlighting uses things like regex. 20:35:23 elliott_: I disagree. I think Perl is a wonderful language. 20:35:34 It's a wonderful, terrible language :) 20:35:40 it's not perfect, no. 20:35:42 (I don't hate it for stupid reasons like "it's line noise".) 20:35:52 (Actually I find it kind of adorable, somehow.) 20:35:52 yes, I didn't think so. 20:36:17 I'm surprised that it exists really. It is fairly atypical. 20:36:18 I personally think it has more syntax than I like 20:36:21 "-- like an incontinent kitten. Endearing, but you don't want it on top of you." 20:36:34 haskell has a bit too much syntax as well, but is otherwise awesome 20:36:45 Haskell? too much syntax? nonsense. 20:37:00 What are you a Lisp programmer? 20:37:11 CakeProphet, I think lisp is about the right amount of syntax yes, though a bit more than lisp is fine 20:37:55 Haskell has very little syntax really. 20:38:00 unless you count things like "class x where ..." 20:38:09 Most of it is operators, which are not really "part of the syntax". 20:38:15 yes I actually think of Haskell as having fairly sparse syntax. 20:38:44 man... these colors hurt my eyes a little bit. 20:38:45 elliott_, indeed, the mass of operators while not syntax is a problem. Remembering all is difficult. Function names may be better for stuff that is less common 20:39:03 as in 20:39:04 Vorpal: Names /are/ used for less common operations. 20:39:08 alphabetical ones 20:39:13 Vorpal: You just don't know what's common, because you're not a Haskell programmer. 20:39:14 elliott_, well even more so than currently 20:39:18 All the arrow, applicative, ... operations are common. 20:39:25 elliott_, indeed. 20:39:32 With alphabetical names, they would be much less useful as far as concision goes. 20:39:36 why not just highlight @ and % variables the same way as $... I mean, they already have sigils, that's enough to distinguish them. 20:39:42 (Concision makes things more readable because you don't have to skip over irrelveant names.) 20:39:44 elliott_, I used <* and so on a few times. That is useful indeed 20:39:56 Vorpal: Well, then you're just imagining this huge mass of operators :) 20:40:18 Perl has a huge mass of operators, and they're also awesome. 20:40:21 Sgeo: Hey, you know why your esolangs in Racket suck? 20:40:25 elliott_, I meant like the "get element in Data.Array" 20:40:28 CakeProphet: Perl [six] has even nicer operators 20:40:30 elliott_, why? 20:40:39 maybe less operators than Haskell though, simply because Haskell has a limitless number. 20:40:41 * Sgeo failed to notice the "your" 20:40:44 Sgeo: Because they aren't Racket #langs. 20:40:52 Vorpal: Uhh. 20:40:54 Vorpal: That's not common? 20:41:01 Vorpal: Let's see. C: x[n]. Fortran: some syntax I don't know. 20:41:03 ALGOL: yep. 20:41:12 Every language ever: yes, getting an element out of an array is common enough to warrant an operator. 20:41:22 Besides, the operator is an exclamation mark, right? 20:41:25 elliott_, sure, but in a functional language arrays aren't that central 20:41:30 That's the standard "element of container" operation. 20:41:34 Map uses it too, etc. 20:41:37 elliott_, isn't it <: or something? 20:41:44 meh forgot what it was 20:41:49 ...Do you mean Data.Seq? 20:41:56 Data.Sequence, sorry. 20:41:56 elliott_, oh that one had :< I think 20:42:11 :< is the constructor of ViewL. 20:42:16 It's like that so pattern matching is prettier. 20:42:21 Perl: @{$href->{$aref->[1]}}[3] 20:42:23 case viewl q of 20:42:23 mmmm 20:42:24 elliott_: ARRAY(INDEX) for Fortran. 20:42:24 elliott_, and come on, in lisp you don't have special syntax to get elements out of arrays 20:42:25 EmptyL -> ... 20:42:27 a :< b -> ... 20:42:39 Vorpal: You do in some Lisps. 20:42:52 elliott_, Not True Lips then, but okay 20:43:00 Lisp doesn't count as a normal programming language, by the way. 20:43:12 Vorpal: But really, that's a stupid argument, because by that standard you're only allowed to have syntax for: 20:43:15 - Function application 20:43:17 - Macros, and 20:43:21 - OH YEAH, tons of special forms. 20:43:25 Lisp has tons of syntax. 20:43:33 You just don't see it because it's all made out of parens and names. 20:43:34 elliott_, I think lisp should cut down on special forms yes 20:43:38 Vorpal: And macros? 20:43:40 Is there a particular reason in @{$href->{$aref->[1]}}[3] to not go to the final end with arrow notation, as in $href->{$aref->[1]}->[3]? 20:43:43 So basically... you want... sexp lambda calculus? 20:43:55 Congratulations you have invented the least useful language ever. 20:44:04 Syntax is notation; not wanting notation is insanity. 20:44:06 elliott_, macros let you define your own syntax yes 20:44:13 but the standard library shouldn't have it 20:44:22 What? 20:44:27 what I said 20:44:28 bbl 20:44:33 OK I'm stepping out of this conversation because it's stupid. 20:44:47 fizzie: er, I guess not. 20:45:06 for the purposes of obfuscation, maybe. 20:45:32 Vorpal: Believe you me, Haskell has very, very sparse syntax. It just doesn't seem like it to you. 20:46:06 Y'know all those operators you see? That's not really syntax. A Haskell operator is a function that's called infix. That's all. 20:46:31 pikhq_, I know that 20:46:35 fizzie: a better one would have used something like push. push @{href->{$aref->[1]}}, $data 20:46:58 unless push can work on refs, I haven't tried that actually. 20:47:07 Vorpal: You seem to act like it isn't. :P 20:47:27 oh what do you know, push can take a scalar reference 20:47:37 time to clean up some code I've been working on. 20:48:30 elliott_: could you give me a rundown of what makes cperl-mode awesome and perl-mode not? 20:48:53 No it can't; at least not in my Perl. perl -e '$a = [1, 2]; push $a, 3;' => Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not scalar dereference) at -e line 1, near "3;" 20:49:05 CakeProphet: Nope, ask someone else :P 20:49:31 elliott_: haha, okay. Oh, and it's (defalias 'perl-mode 'cperl-mode) 20:50:13 CakeProphet: Oh, well, that's one way to do it. 20:50:17 That stops you using regular perl-mode though. 20:50:21 cperl-mode is awesome because it handles the fun(< (It's not awesome when it breaks, since at least for me it seems to break more messily than perl-mode.) 20:51:27 Also if you turn "cperl-hairy" on it's really confusing, full of electric things. 20:51:45 gedit breaks horribly on perl. I had to fix up a few regexes so that my code didn't vomit horrible colors at me. 20:51:52 fizzie, huh? 20:52:21 Vorpal: "Huh?"? 20:52:23 fizzie, oh that sort of electric 20:52:30 fizzie, as in electric mode? 20:52:30 Yes, the Emacs sort of electric. 20:52:38 fizzie, that is *always* confusing 20:53:25 cperl-hairy makes at least keywords, parens and some braces be all weird. 20:53:34 It auto-adds a space after typing "${" and so on. 20:53:39 heh 20:53:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(programming_language) 20:55:03 NihilistDandy: What of it? 20:55:05 (I know of Charity.) 20:55:51 cool language, I didn't know of it 20:55:57 total languages are always fun 20:56:28 So what are the typical commands you guys use to navigate between buffers. I've so far only discover C-x 20:56:31 *discovered 20:58:24 -!- TOGoS has joined. 20:58:32 "C-x b RET" is often enough if you just want to flip between two buffers repeatedly. (I'm not sure if there's a key that optimizes that particular operation even further.) 20:59:51 elliott_: I didn't know of it. I thought it might be germane for this channel :D 21:01:05 ## Latest News ## 12 October 2000 21:01:07 :| 21:01:21 NihilistDandy: It's an old research language, what do you expect :) 21:01:34 I wonder if it'll compile... 21:02:04 cperl-modes highlighting is kind of inconsistent feeling. 21:02:14 it highlights $info in my $info; 21:02:20 but not in $info->get_tag() 21:05:02 That's because it has one face for variable definitions, one for arrays and one for hashes; but none for plain scalar variables. In "my $info" it's not $info in particular it's highlighting, it's the variable definition it is. 21:06:23 c-x c-b is a good. also c-x b 21:06:55 ...lame, having the scalar variables highlighted would make things easier to read. 21:07:14 why not just highlight @ and % variables the same way as $... I mean, they already have sigils, that's enough to distinguish them. 21:09:43 elliott_: yes, the sigil is enough to distinguish between different types of variables, but it doesn't help with large lines of code consisting of only scalars.. everything is the same color. 21:09:52 CakeProphet: There seems to be a configuration key for it: setting cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately to non-nil will (probably) cause it to highlight all $foos with the variable-definition face. 21:10:06 hmmm 21:10:08 excellent. 21:11:09 (I haven't tried; just searched for "scalar" in some old cperl-mode.el; it's one of the defcustom'd vars; I guess you could look through the cperl group in the customization browser for further configuration options in general.) 21:11:37 how does you reload .emacs without a restart? 21:12:24 CakeProphet: try C-x C-e on the end of a line you want to execute 21:12:32 Goodness. 21:12:37 that's more useful than rerunning the whole file, especially as it might not be idempotent 21:12:57 elliott_: or in lisp interaction mode, C-j 21:13:00 The actual maximum bandwidth of cable Internet is 6762.4 Mbit/s in the US. 21:13:27 ais523: who has .emacs in lisp interaction mode? 21:13:48 Yes, just over the cable network you can get nearly 7 gigabits per second. 21:13:52 ...definitely not someone who just started picking up emacs today. 21:14:14 elliott_: oh, I restart Emacs to check changes for .emacs 21:14:21 CakeProphet: i take it you haven't done anything with the [asterisk]scratch[asterisk] buffer yet >:) 21:14:31 due to it otherwise being easy to introduce bugs where .emacs runs things in the wrong order 21:14:38 that tends not to show up if you test it "online" 21:14:42 elliott_: nope.. 21:14:44 * elliott_ considers setting the text colour for [asterisk]scratch[asterisk] to white 21:15:00 If only they didn't keep that nasty "TV" on the line. 21:16:48 fizzie: nah that didn't variable didn't seem to change anything. I'll check out customize 21:17:13 This rate could be doubled by using better modulation. 21:18:19 CakeProphet: How did you set it? 21:18:27 CakeProphet: You realise you have to re-enable the mode for it to take effect. 21:18:58 yeah I re-enable it. However, I just read the description of that variable and it says that it won't take any effect after the first time cperl-mode is loaded. 21:19:07 so... restart time. 21:20:47 awww yeah, scalar variables are now a dull pasty brown. 21:21:24 nailed it 21:22:09 "(Raising e to an imaginary power produces rotation around a unit circle in the complex plane, according to Euler’s formula. How? Magic, as far as I can tell. But apparently it’s true)." 21:22:17 Programmers: dur maths is hard. 21:23:03 Phantom_Hoover, hey not all programmers are stupid 21:23:10 , said Vorpal. 21:23:14 For comparison, the maximum rate of DSL is about 200 Mbit/s. An order of magnitude smaller than cable, if the cable companies didn't hate the Internet. 21:23:14 that's a good example of something unintuitive to the uninitiated 21:23:28 elliott_, come on, I understand why Euler's formulas work :P 21:23:44 "I decided that Fourier must have been speaking to aliens, because if you gave me all the time and paper in the world, I would not have been able to come up with that." 21:23:48 Possibly, because you are stupid. 21:23:50 OR 21:23:55 Possibly, because Fourier was a genius. 21:23:58 PERHAPS 21:23:59 IT IS BOTH 21:24:17 OK Google tells me Fourier didn't actually write the transform. 21:24:21 * pikhq_ would love to see a cable company turn off its cable TV service and start offering gigabit Internet. 21:24:22 Obviously it was space aliens. 21:24:23 Spaliens. 21:24:33 Homo spaliens. 21:24:34 Possibly, because Fourier was a genius. 21:24:59 Didn't Fourier set the stage for the huge flurry over the basis of calculus? 21:25:19 Your mother is calculus. 21:25:32 Phantom_Hoover, sounds like a genius right there then 21:27:13 oh hey, one day in and Emacs isn't too bad. Perhaps in a few more days it'll even be not a pain in the ass to do anything. 21:27:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:25 CakeProphet, try M-x doctor. 21:28:13 CakeProphet, try M-x set-input RET TeX RET 21:28:24 ...ahahaha. awesome. 21:28:27 CakeProphet, then write some tex notation into the buffer 21:28:28 like 21:28:30 \vee 21:28:32 or whatever 21:28:43 CakeProphet, it will convert a subset to unicode 21:30:45 I am too busy being psychoanalyzed 21:30:51 CakeProphet: M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead 21:30:57 (Press a character to stop it.) 21:30:58 CakeProphet: Then M-x tetris. 21:31:28 doctor: "You seem terrified by sex." 21:31:29 (Works in both terminals and graphically[exclamation mark]) 21:31:43 Then M-x hanoi. 21:32:03 elliott_, when will you get your keyboard fixed? 21:32:18 -!- cheater79 has joined. 21:33:48 [asterisk]laptop 21:34:46 Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED! 21:34:47 elliott_, psychoanalyze-pinhead kind of sucks with the stripped-down yow. 21:37:00 elliott_: hanoi seems to have stopped working when I gave it a numeric argument of 21:37:03 9 21:37:06 haha 21:37:08 CakeProphet: tried tetris yet? 21:37:15 yeah I tried it earlier. 21:37:16 it even has fancy pieces in the graphical version 21:47:31 You: Does it please you to believe that it pleases me to believe that? 21:47:33 Eliza: Oh, i to believe that it pleases you to believe that. 21:50:11 can anyone here think of a word meaning "susceptibility to invasion by zombies"? 21:50:31 fleshy 21:50:42 hmm, that might work 21:51:12 ais523: wat 21:51:20 elliott_: BlogNomic 21:51:36 ais523: I'd tell you, but you'd have to make me a developer. 21:51:48 Although a trial developer would be OK too 21:51:59 elliott_: haha 21:55:07 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/Math 21:55:19 Mathematics has tropes now? 21:55:19 Who wants to play "how long until the first facepalm!" 21:55:28 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajf|offline. 21:55:32 elliott_, Headscratchers = Just Bugs Me. 21:55:59 I know. 21:56:01 "Why do people in an Honors Advanced Precalc class still need to ask "When are we going to use this in life?" If you've opted to take the class, and gotten to this level, you should know that unless you get a career in pure math or teaching, you're not going to use it. Just deal with it." 21:56:04 CALCULUS: Not useful 21:56:15 "Math is used in everything. Well, almost everything. Economists use some very advanced math including fields like differential equations, probability and statistics, dynamical systems, and even some more pure stuff like linear algebra and analysis." 21:56:30 Is it a bad sign that I don't really think of many of those things as "advanced"? 21:57:12 Having finished linear algebra and differential equations, I'd agree with you that they're not too advanced... 21:57:48 Diff. eq just follows naturally from calculus, and linear algebra reasonably could be part of the standard secondary educational curriculum. 21:58:01 I kind of skipped over both because numbers are kind of ugly. 21:58:20 an opinion you share with oklofok 21:58:31 "Why is it impossible to divide by 0? 21:58:31 BTW, here's about 20 pages of natter discussing the problem and why this is such a common question." 21:58:36 Thank god, that was removed. 21:58:58 http://pastebin.com/6AK4DJbU is the pages of arguments. 21:59:03 I like the implication in those questions that it's, like, physically impossible. 21:59:09 "What if I try REALLY HARD?" 21:59:29 Phantom_Hoover: Linear algebra would be a much better course without numbers. 21:59:44 "It's possible to ''multiply'' by 0 (with the result always being 0), and dividing is the exact opposite of multiplication, so why isn't any number/0 always 0?" 21:59:47 what 22:00:02 "However, it's impossible to break up the group represented by the dividend into 0 groups, so any number divided by 0 will always be undefined." 22:00:06 You just answered your own question. 22:00:11 "However, multiplying by 0 means you're combining 0 groups of a specific number of items...which is equally impossible." 22:00:12 What. 22:00:18 Phantom_Hoover: I'm crying irl 22:00:26 Desperately require comfort 22:00:33 There is none. 22:00:42 I thought that division by 0 was left undefined simply because defining it makes you lose a number of algebraic properties that are rather nice. 22:00:52 "Why is algebra and algorithms considered or anything involving advanced mathematics required classes if the career I want is to become a cartoonist?" 22:00:58 Best part: this person is *right*. 22:01:20 The way mathematics is taught completely removes all the benefits of learning it. 22:01:29 Wow, I know who wrote that. 22:01:34 (I don't, but, I do.) 22:01:52 You are going to have to explain that. 22:02:09 Yeahno. 22:02:10 Phantom_Hoover: Calculation should be considered completely seperate from math. 22:02:19 pikhq_: There is a perfectly good name for it: arithmetic. 22:02:59 elliott_, pikhq_, except no, it's deeper than that. 22:03:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:03:07 I wasn't objecting. 22:03:10 Memorising rules for differentiation is just as useless. 22:03:12 I was simply responding to pikhq_. 22:03:16 If not more so. 22:03:17 elliott_: "Arithmetic" kinda gives you the notion that it's merely addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and perhaps some square roots. 22:03:28 At least arithmetic can actually be used without understanding. 22:03:54 If you're actually going to *need* calculus, you probably need to understand the underlying reasoning as well. 22:06:01 Phantom_Hoover: Quite true. Memorisation of things is pretty pointless. 22:06:22 I say this as someone who has an extremely shaky understanding of some basic calculus. 22:06:40 Although this is because I was learning it at the same time as GCSE for an exam later in the year. 22:06:45 And I was being taught by a blind man. 22:06:54 Literally the *only* time I will ever have a need to memorise, say, derivatives or integrals, is for a test. 22:06:59 Ok what do you want to eat? 22:06:59 blind people can't do calculus 22:06:59 You. 22:07:01 Ok I am 1.87 and I am 32 years old and I am married. 22:07:07 ...I wonder if cleverbot will cyber with me. 22:07:17 Every other time, *I can look shit up*. 22:07:22 "Seriously, guys. Who the hell came up with the term 'integer'? What is wrong with calling them 'numbers'? If they're supposed to be called 'integers', why the hell do we even use the word 'number' anyway? Let's be honest here: when I first learned the term 'integer' back in middle school, that was the moment when mathematics Jumped The Shark for me. I've never trusted it since." 22:07:29 Phantom_Hoover: ahoifahhaahahahahaahaha 22:07:29 This person, OTOH, is an annoying idiot. 22:07:32 that's an obvious joke 22:07:39 elliott_, it is? 22:07:41 If it's actually relevant to what I'm doing a lot, then I'll probably memorise it anyways. 22:07:56 Phantom_Hoover: "mathematics Jumped the Shark for me. I've never trusted it since." marks it as a joke. 22:08:17 Phantom_Hoover: I mean, it is /possible/ someone that idiotic exists, but would they really be able to form decent sentences and make references to tropes? 22:08:31 elliott_, see: half the Homestuck fandom. 22:08:31 + "Let's be honest here" 22:08:36 Phantom_Hoover: they can't form sentences. 22:08:54 elliott_, I am sorry, let us peruse homestucksecrets. 22:08:55 Evidence to the contrary NOTWITHSTANDING. 22:09:05 Oh god don't. The last time you did that ten thousand infants died. 22:09:15 catholicsecrets! 22:09:28 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:10:04 "I thought Paul was the main character." 22:10:44 Phantom_Hoover: Arguably, he is. His writings are the very first evidence we have of anything resembling Christianity. 22:11:07 pikhq_, SHH YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND 22:11:37 I find it amusing that Paul never once quotes Jesus. 22:11:56 First, read Homestuck. Then, read homestucksecrets. Go into fit of manic depression. Cure with kittens. Then, you shall understand truly that reference. 22:11:59 Or, indeed, gives any suggestion that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being. 22:14:11 Alternately, start reading Homestuck, then stop halfway through, so I can control both you and elliott_ with the threat of spoilers. 22:14:32 You realise I'm up-to-date. 22:15:00 NOT ON FINE STRUCTURE 22:15:23 READ IT READ IT READ IT 22:15:25 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 22:15:25 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 22:15:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:16:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:16:21 MITCH KILLS SEPH WITH ROSEBUD 22:16:37 THEN IT TURNS OUT THAT MIKE IS HIS FATHER 22:17:21 WHO WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME 22:17:59 THE IMPRISONING GOD 22:18:01 IS ACTUALLY 22:18:15 Wait does elliott_ know about that 22:18:18 Erm. 22:18:20 Oops. 22:18:25 /clear 22:18:46 If "the imprisoning god" gives away a shitload, I'm going to tear your fucking head off and punch it into a sausage-making machine. 22:19:00 But I'll keep a backup of your mind first so I can torture it for the rest of eternity. 22:19:04 YW 22:19:21 It doesn't give away much. 22:19:46 And this, kids, is why Phantom_Hoover is hereby banned from joking about spoilers. 22:19:59 ...isn't that basically the background of I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream. or something. 22:20:01 JUST READ THE DAMN THINGG 22:20:03 *THING 22:20:22 () 22:20:35 Phantom_Hoover: Too busy keeping friend on his toes by re-reading Homestuck in sync with him. 22:20:46 He is so unreliable you have no idea. 22:21:00 Homefine Stuckture. 22:21:08 oerjan: ARE YOU GOING TO SPOIL EVERY MAJOR WORK OF FICTION FROM THE PAST CENTURY FOR ME ;D 22:21:23 elliott_: WELL WE WERE ON A RUN HERE... 22:21:27 There should be a greasemonkey extension that hides all sections named "Plot" or "Plot summary" from Wikipedia articles. 22:21:36 (Especially since they tend to be badly-written anyway.) 22:21:46 elliott_, ZAKALWE IS [DATA EXPUNGED] 22:21:55 Wait, you're never going to read those books. 22:22:13 I am. 22:22:16 I absolutely am. 22:22:24 The Culture is one of the few things penetrating the depth of my Fiction Backlog. 22:23:31 I WILL NOW SCPSPOIL ALL OF THEM 22:23:33 IN ORDER 22:23:57 THE CULTURE WINS THE IDIRAN WAR 22:24:09 OK, that wasn't redacted, because it's obvious. 22:25:09 OK stop. 22:25:10 Just stop. 22:25:11 I don't trust you. 22:25:32 Also, it would be hilarious if they didn't and all the remaining books were just "Nothing happened because the Culture no longer exists." repeated ad infinitum 22:26:43 Well, it wasn't a war to the death or anything. 22:27:19 It was more "I want to play with the lesser species!" "No me!" "No me!" 22:28:15 Shut up before you spoil something. 22:28:37 I need to obtain every Culture book in hardback before I read them, dammit, and that will be a pain. 22:28:59 hm plot idea for a sci-fi novel: the protagonist is from a fanatical religious world that recently won a war against a goody-two-shoes liberal one. the great reveal near the end is that they actually lost but the liberals put them in a virtual simulation where they think they won instead 22:29:00 The war is barely relevant to the Culture series anyway. 22:29:18 oerjan, well thanks for spoiling it. 22:29:33 <- now spoiling books before they are written 22:29:50 NO sPOLLING 22:29:59 oerjan: That's really more of a novella type idea, isn't it 22:30:03 I mean it's not that much of a conclusion 22:30:15 "And then they won except, ha ha, not really. The end." 22:30:35 whatever 22:30:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:30:44 * oerjan has never written either 22:31:04 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:31:55 how popular are books intentionally spoiled from the beginning 22:31:57 i could write it 22:31:59 do they even exist 22:32:12 monqy: "John dies in the end" has sold pretty well 22:32:20 [asterisk]at the 22:32:27 My assumption with that book is that John dying is not, in fact, the real climax :) 22:32:27 monqy, see: every classic ever. 22:32:30 same diff 22:32:37 Phantom_Hoover: Two star-crossed lovers take their lives because they're idiots. 22:32:42 And now let me tell you how in excruciating detial. 22:32:44 [asterisk]detail. 22:32:47 [POINTLESS PLAY OMITTED] 22:32:52 elliott_: my assumption is that it's litfic, and therefore has no real climax 22:32:52 oh I remember that one 22:33:06 everyone else was an idiot too right 22:33:18 quintopia: Is "comedic horror" generally considered to be able to be literary fiction? 22:33:19 People seem not to realise that Melville didn't actually write Moby Dick with the assumption that the reader would know how it ends. 22:33:27 (Not making a judgement on whether it should be, but it seems rather out of the scope.) 22:33:36 anytthing can be litfic 22:33:46 i knew a girl writing a litfic about pokemon 22:33:51 monqy: Yes, apart from the Priest guy, who as I recall told everyone else they were stupid. 22:33:58 oh and there's that one where everyone commits suicide because someone didn't get a burial, right? 22:34:12 but did he write it with the assumption that anyone would read all of it through? 22:34:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:34:21 quintopia: But comedic litfic has two conflicting aims -- to make you laugh and to, uhh, be literary fiction. 22:34:41 elliott_: i never said it was easy 22:34:43 I should read House of Leaves sometime. also, Infinite Jest. Prediction: I will never do either. 22:34:56 -!- Tritonio has joined. 22:37:20 "This Troper's boyfriend has been incredulously good at math since he was in elementary school," 22:37:26 You keep using that word. 22:37:34 I do not think it means what you think it means. 22:37:47 X-D 22:39:05 * Phantom_Hoover gets bored, reads Simple English Wikipedia. 22:39:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:03 "Gets bored" is probably the wrong phrase; it's more that I keep trying to do a depth-first traversal of the internet. 22:40:19 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox 22:40:27 "Mathematics has shown that..." 22:40:35 Wait no 22:40:38 "Mathematics has shown that any object can be reassembled into any other object." 22:40:58 This short article about science can be made longer. You can help Wikipedia by adding to it. 22:42:09 I like how everything is simpler 22:43:06 I'm not quite sure about some of these things 22:43:13 "Change" instead of "Edit", really? 22:43:19 "Give" instead of "Donate" 22:43:45 They basically took every Latinate word and replaced it with an Anglo-Saxon one. 22:44:04 this makes it simpler 22:44:08 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet 22:44:14 "A magnet is a very special metal." 22:44:28 I like the way they simplify to the point of wrongness. 22:44:51 RANDOM THOUGHT: Bismuth as shielding around a hard drive. 22:45:07 Yeah, it's not that special. 22:45:17 A VERY special metal. 22:45:25 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems 22:45:32 Sorry guys we are now discussing bismuth. 22:45:32 Phantom_Hoover: how uncleftish 22:46:05 I find simple english harder to follow than regular english 22:46:48 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth(V)_oxide 22:46:53 -!- TOGoS has left. 22:46:57 I want complex english wikipedia 22:47:01 How do you even decide to write that article. 22:47:22 Phantom_Hoover: bismuth isn't funny 22:47:40 elliott_, bismuth(V) oxide is. 22:47:46 no it is serious bismuth 22:47:56 * Phantom_Hoover swats monqy. 22:48:19 Phantom_Hoover: bismuth is NOT funny 22:48:57 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felisburgo 22:49:18 straight and to the point 22:49:30 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vernon,_Illinois 22:49:33 even better 22:49:54 hitting "Show any page" is bringing up a lot of these 22:50:27 is that how it says random 22:50:29 haha it is omg 22:50:52 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting 22:50:55 Counting is something people do to find out how many things there are of any kind. 22:51:02 it's abstract to the point of unreadability 22:51:17 counting is something people do to count stuff 22:51:34 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_off 22:51:39 The person counting usually starts with the number one, and gives this number to the first thing. The next thing is given the number two. Then, the next thing is given the number three. If there is another thing, it gets the number four. More things get more numbers. Each thing gets its own number in this way. The last number given to the last thing counted shows how many things there are. 22:51:51 words of wisdo m 22:52:13 i'm imagining a guy handing out numbers to little cute kittens or something 22:52:15 all the things get a number 22:52:20 oh jeez it has examples 22:52:27 There are the letters A, Q, L, and S on a piece of paper. How many letters are there on the piece of paper? 22:52:30 Tom gives numbers to the letters. The letter A gets the number 1. The letter Q gets the number 2. The letter L gets the number 3. The letter S gets the number 4. There are no more letters to count. There are 4 letters on the piece of paper. 22:52:32 Guitar Hero: Metallica is a rhythm game that was made by Neversoft with other help from Activision. It is part of the Guitar Hero franchise. The game was released in North America on March 29, 2009 for the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 and the Wii and was released on April 14, 2009 in North America for the PlayStation 2. In the game Guitar Hero: World Tour, there is a trailer for the game with the song "Master of Puppets" playing in the background. "It also s 22:52:32 ays Ride the Lightning 2009."[needs proof] 22:52:34 [needs proof] 22:52:44 what's a citation 22:52:55 The word art is used to describe some activities or creations of human beings that have importance to the human mind, regarding an attraction to the human senses. Therefore, art is made when a human expresses himself or herself. 22:52:58 "themselves" is too difficult 22:53:16 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation 22:53:49 scared to look up "sex" 22:53:54 it'll be written for toddlers 22:54:01 it'll start "when a man and a women love each other very much" 22:54:08 or "sit down son. 22:54:12 let me tell you about the birds. 22:54:13 and the bees." 22:54:16 Sex is a type of reproduction common among living things. It always needs two individuals, usually of the same species. Sex is used by plants and animals, and also by fungi and various single-celled organisms. It works by combining genes from more than one source. 22:54:31 so if genes don't combine it isn't sex? 22:54:43 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat 22:54:43 i am here first time i got this site good and i wish to express my thougts i am astonished to see the dual and tripple policies of world powers the superpowers as they claimed theirslves and i called so it called superpowers.all the are acting the world have no realistic approach of justification just to give a new trend to make and create a new joke that the world is in danger and all civilized nations are near to destroy by the elements called terrori 22:54:43 st we have never seen them in real life just to see what the reallly want to show to us on their controlled media and make people fool in this way and get all their vested interst and make any nation their colony and use of power in their thought is sacred and any other person or a group use the power is called genoside terrorism atrocities etc. 22:54:45 --Talk:Main Page 22:54:47 Behaviour section. 22:54:54 BEST IMAGE 22:54:58 oh gross it has nudity and a picture of butterfly sex 22:55:00 "The cat on the right is fed up with the cat on the left and this is a semi-serious warning." 22:55:07 Phantom_Hoover: X-D 22:56:11 Oh my god 22:56:15 kittens 22:56:17 this is 22:56:18 so funny 22:56:33 "other images of dogs" 22:56:34 oh goody 22:56:37 "5. Watch, delighted, as kitten sits down promptly and urinates. Do same for other kits. 22:56:46 Phantom_Hoover: ...X-D 22:56:49 6. Repeat next time if they need it. They will not need a third time. Probably." 22:56:58 KITTEN I HAVE WARNED YOU TWICE 22:57:03 THERE WILL NOT BE A THIRD TIME 22:57:09 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby 22:57:10 PROBABLY 22:57:13 A baby is a very young human who is usually born after coming out of a woman. 22:57:18 * pikhq mutters 22:57:22 Usually. 22:57:38 Cabal is very, very poorly suited to builds where you don't *want* to install the program. 22:57:44 "Never chastise a cat physically: if you do, the relationship will never be the same again." 22:57:47 monqy: usually 22:57:55 Phantom_Hoover: bahahahaoaihfjgoifdjh 22:57:57 A child is a month old, a baby until he or she is about three years old, and a preschooler between 3 years old and school. 22:58:07 "How old are you?" "School." 22:58:15 Cats are acutely affected by domestic abuse. 22:58:24 http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baby&action=historysubmit&diff=1817847&oldid=1814967 22:58:25 Lady. 22:58:25 what's a cute 22:58:33 Cuteness is a type of liking people have, such as toward children and babies. It mostly depends on their appearance. 22:58:36 Knut, a young polar bear at the Berlin Zoo, has been talked about in the media as "cute".[1] 22:58:58 Abortion 22:58:58 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 22:58:58 (Redirected from Miscarriage 22:59:12 ) 22:59:17 ... 22:59:18 X-D 22:59:39 okay it's defining abortion generally to include miscarriages 22:59:41 "It can affect people, dogs, and cats.[1]" 22:59:58 Outside of this closely related group, it has not been observed. 23:00:02 (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydactyly) 23:00:17 lol 23:00:23 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_(polar_bear) 23:00:35 This article is more detailed than their articles on... everything. 23:00:48 I'm reading about human sacrifice now 23:00:55 BONUS STUPID WIKIPEDIAS: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page 23:01:03 Scots Wikipedia! 23:01:15 Her arrival interested people from all over the world, because many sources thought the two bears (although they were sexually immature) would soon be "dating".[34] 23:01:26 "dating" 23:01:30 ;) 23:01:31 Phantom_Hoover: The non-English Anglo-Frisian languages deserve a Wikipedia, too. 23:01:39 "Afore nou, cats citch moose an froot aboot fowk's hooses." 23:01:58 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:02:13 I cannot show my amusement there are English people I must show solidarity oh god I can't this is ridiculous. 23:02:16 A kinnen or rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus) is wee-er nor a maukin. The bouerie unner the grund whaur kinnens leeves is kent as a cuningar. A young kinnen is cried a leprone. 23:02:21 elliott_: See the page on "dating" though. The male bear was "dating" his penis into the female bear's vagina :P 23:02:25 wee-er nor a maukin 23:02:34 A maukin or hare, whiles kent as a donie; baud, bautie or pous(ie) an aw, haes lang lugs a can rin awfu fast. A young hare is cried a leprone. 23:02:34 * The broun hare (Lepus europaeus) 23:02:34 * The white hare or cuttie (Lepus timidus) 23:02:46 There's no sex page :( 23:02:49 But there IS a homosexuality page 23:02:53 lol 23:02:54 Oh god 23:02:56 Also, Metallica discography. 23:02:58 PRIORITIES 23:03:01 What's sex called in Scots Phantom_Hoover 23:03:02 Homo♥iality 23:03:09 elliott_, how would I know? 23:03:19 You're Scottish. 23:03:25 *Scotch 23:03:31 They don't have a page on "sassenach". 23:03:32 The cavalier o Hohenberg an his squire burned far crime o sodomy. 23:03:35 This is ridiculous. 23:03:40 How can they not have a page on that. 23:03:45 I FEEL DISCRIMINATED AGAINST 23:03:46 elliott_: Scots is only common in the Highlands. 23:03:47 "Gaun by the Kinsey Scale, bisexuals can reenge fae bein a bittie homosexual tae beein a bittie heterosexual." 23:03:49 Bittie homosexual 23:03:59 http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance 23:04:00 THAT IMAGE 23:04:01 THAT CAPTION 23:04:02 SGHFOHFOGIHDOJOIDJHOGFH 23:04:13 Ach, feelin' a bittie homosexual tadae! 23:04:20 Metallica (pronounced /mɛˈtælɨkə/) is an American hivy metal baund frae Los Angeles, California, formed in 1981. The baund wis foondit when an advertisement postit bi drummer Lars Ulrich in a local newspaper, wis respondit tae bi James Hetfield. Metallica's line up haes primarily consistit o Ulrich, rhythm guitarist an vocalist James Hetfield an lead guitarist Kirk Hammett, while goin through a number o bassists (Ron McGovney, Cliff Burton, Jason N 23:04:20 ewsted). The spot is currently held bi Robert Trujillo. The baund's oreeginal lead guitarist, afore Hammett, wis current Megadeth guitarist an lead vocalist Dave Mustaine. 23:04:22 HIVY METAL 23:04:23 HIVY METAL BAUND 23:04:24 Oh come on guys you could have tried. 23:04:25 HIVY METAL BAUND 23:04:27 HIVY METAL BAUND 23:04:29 HIVY METAL BAUND 23:04:31 HIVY METAL BAUND 23:04:49 "As o December 2009, Metallica is the fowert best-sellin muisic airtist since the SoundScan era began trackin sales on Mey 25, 1991, sellin a total o 52,271,000 albums in the Unitit States alone." 23:04:51 UNITIT STATES 23:04:51 UNITIT STATES 23:04:52 UNITIT STATES 23:04:53 UNITIT STATES 23:04:56 elliott_: Be glad Yola's dead, I guess. 23:04:57 "Gaun by the Kinsey Scale, bisexuals can reenge fae bein a bittie homosexual tae beein a bittie heterosexual." 23:05:03 Phantom_Hoover: Already pasted. 23:05:04 time to try out the Wale page allevolie 23:05:17 http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitit_States 23:05:24 Ingland's muckle maist ceety, Lunnon, is the caipital o the Unitit Kinrick an aw. 23:05:34 "George Washington wis the first presses." 23:05:37 http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Breetain 23:06:02 It's like Scots can't spell anything the normal way. 23:06:15 Normal = modern English :P 23:06:24 http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland 23:06:31 I like the subtle jab at Ulster Scots. 23:06:45 Phantom_Hoover: Scots is a distinct language with less well-defined orthography than English. Sorry. :P 23:06:46 http://af.wikipedia.org/ 23:06:54 * This wrangous neologism wis niver uised bi native speakers onywhaur at onytime. It wis cleckit in the late 1990s bi Ulstèr-Scotch enthusiasts. 23:06:55 Hahahahahaha 23:06:59 pikhq, I AM SORRY WHO IS SCOTTISH HERE 23:07:04 # (nou | last) 16:08, 10 Februar 2011 207.235.31.62 (Collogue) (6 bytes) (Replacin page wi 'POTATO') (undo) 23:07:07 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:08 AND WHO IS AN AMERICAN 23:07:10 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:11 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:11 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:11 Phantom_Hoover: CLEARLY NOÖNE. 23:07:12 FROM ENGLAND 23:07:14 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:14 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:14 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:14 Replacin page wi 'POTATO' 23:07:22 Phantom_Hoover: NO TRUE SCOTSMAN DOES NOT SPEAK SCOTS. 23:07:35 pikhq, I CAN SPELL WORDS PHONETICALLY TOO 23:07:53 elliott_: Stoooooooooooop 23:07:56 And/or stop 23:07:59 http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B7:%CE%9A%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1 23:08:03 THE GREEKS HAVE FOUND ORKNEY 23:08:13 Phantom_Hoover: It's not phonetic unless you don't speak with the Great Vowel Shift. 23:08:20 monqy: # President Barack Obama bevestig dat die terroristeleier Osama bin Laden in 'n Amerikaanse aanval dood is. 23:08:56 "Amerikaanse aanval dood is"! 23:09:06 http://i.imgur.com/GRk0v.png 23:09:26 What. 23:09:34 Yes. 23:09:39 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that the SNP are basically in charge now. 23:09:46 Phantom_Hoover: OCH AYE 23:09:57 Sorry guys I can't join in or I'll lose my Scottish licence. 23:10:03 Phantom_Hoover: Guess you better learn Scots, then. And perhaps Gaelic. 23:10:11 (Gælic?) 23:10:19 GAYLICK 23:10:22 And I'll have to lose all those cool perks we get because the English are suckers. 23:10:34 pikhq, AH BUT I AM ETHNICALLY IRISH 23:11:01 Phantom_Hoover: Fantastic, learn Irish as well! 23:11:04 But the Irish are ethnically Scottish :P 23:11:17 Oh, hell, and Welsh. Might as well pick up all the living Celtic languages. 23:11:32 Cornish? 23:11:37 Gregor: FUCK YOU 23:11:40 :P 23:11:42 Breton? 23:11:46 pikhq, well, as Vorpal can attest, I am also Welsh. 23:11:58 WHY HASN'T ENGLISH CONQUERED THE BRITISH ISLES 23:12:25 Manx? 23:12:34 Phantom_Hoover, no you are Scottish 23:12:52 pikhq, it has in the sense that almost everyone speaks it to some degree. 23:13:14 Given that there's 100 native speakers of Manx, and 600 of Cornish, I feel justified in calling them dead. 23:13:17 I'm going to go to the Highlands and everyone will be all "Why are you pronouncing everything non-phonetically" 23:13:30 Actually they'll just murder me for sounding English. 23:13:37 pikhq: Wikipedia says 1,700 and 3,000 :P 23:13:52 Gregor: THEY'RE BREEDING 23:13:53 HÏVY METAL BÄUND 23:13:58 Gregor: Total speakers. 23:14:13 Oh, you said native. 23:14:15 Given that there's 100 native speakers of Manx, and 600 of Cornish, I feel justified in calling them dead. 23:14:16 Got it. 23:14:26 Yeah, but there are like 150 people on Mann. 23:14:46 80,000. 23:14:47 mann is dead too 23:14:57 And you mean "Isle of Man". 23:15:12 No, wait, you do mean "Mann". 23:15:26 Fuck you, Mann. 23:15:46 Mann is a douchebag. 23:15:53 That's almost as bad as the time I discovered that the tiny Irish village I get dragged to has a population of around 2000. 23:16:53 Humans suck at population estimation. 23:17:40 THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE 23:18:02 The best part is that according to WP and some calculation, 8 of those people aren't Protestant or Catholic. 23:18:05 *8*. 23:19:25 and how many of those eight do some other religion 23:20:47 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 23:21:13 Well done, monqy, you have successfully explicited the subtext! 23:21:23 -!- augur has joined. 23:21:49 I should write a script that makes jabberwacky and cleverbot talk to each other. 23:22:00 been done hasn't it 23:22:07 I have no idea.. 23:22:10 probably. 23:22:23 google results have yielded nothing so far. 23:30:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:40 pikhq, I need your dismissive opinions on Steinbeck. 23:34:02 Phantom_Hoover: The Grapes of Wrath demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about what makes a compelling narrative. 23:34:21 And the pretentious mental wankery? 23:34:26 grapes of poop 23:34:42 Phantom_Hoover: Is part of demonstrating that lack of understanding. 23:34:49 Hmm. 23:34:57 Who else do you have dismissive opinions on. 23:35:15 "If you'll excuse me, I would like to cease the narrative to wank onto the page!" 23:35:54 Phantom_Hoover: Name some authors, I'll probably come up with something. 23:36:54 Miller. 23:37:25 That's not registering as an author. 23:37:30 Douglas Adams 23:37:37 Terry Pratchett 23:37:44 Sgeo: I cannot dismiss them. 23:38:18 Homer 23:38:54 He's an old Greek dude that people fellate without having actually read anything by him. 23:39:08 pikhq, Meyers 23:39:10 Homo 23:39:10 * Phantom_Hoover ducks. 23:39:44 Phantom_Hoover: Incompetent author and a Mormon writing about the Mormon ideal of a relationship. Also, vampires. 23:39:59 Phantom_Hoover: there's no s. 23:40:06 (This is the result of me googling "Meyers".) 23:40:14 (And having no clue who you meant until pikhq answered.) 23:40:18 elliott_, SHUT UP 23:40:43 pikhq, vampires can be good 23:40:46 YOU HAVE NOT LIVED THROUGH THE TORMENT OF HAVING A SISTER WHO IS A SUPERPOSITION OF EVERY ANNOYING THING A YOUNGER SISTER CAN BE 23:41:01 Sgeo: Only when they glow. 23:41:03 Sgeo: Not when written by someone who has obviously never even read Dracula. 23:41:21 She went from reading Twilight and zealously following the charts to being a pretentious hipster in about 3 months. 23:41:43 Phantom_Hoover: the internet can do that to people. 23:42:14 Sgeo: And appears to think an abusive relationship is desirable. 23:42:46 That's a problem with the story, not the vampires 23:42:53 Sgeo really likes vampires. 23:42:55 Or, well, problem with the author 23:42:59 No, just saying 23:43:00 I suggest we psychoanalyse. 23:43:16 elliott_: Can you elaborate on that? 23:43:35 CakeProphet: Do you think can you elaborate on that because of an experience you had as a child? 23:43:38 The vampire is his stepmother. 23:44:04 pikhq, Hemingway. 23:44:21 Phantom_Hoover: A genuinely good author. 23:44:29 And supreme badass. 23:44:31 pikhq: Joyce 23:44:31 Shakespeare. 23:44:40 elliott_: Why do you ask that? 23:44:46 pikhq, also, as we established, a woman. 23:45:06 Phantom_Hoover: An oft-misunderstood playwrite, who uses rather crude language, contrary to popular belief. 23:45:11 Phantom_Hoover: wat 23:45:16 elliott_: (this is going to go nowehre fast...) 23:45:16 pikhq: RESPOND TO MINE 23:45:22 CakeProphet: already gave up :D 23:45:25 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:45:39 elliott_, we found some gender analyser thing. 23:45:41 elliott_: Cannot give a meaningful comment. 23:45:52 It said complex sentences were male and simple ones female. 23:46:06 this is joyce. you don't need to be meaningful. 23:46:08 On pikhq's suggestion, I fed Hemingway in, and he came out 83% female. 23:46:20 elliott_: you're being a bit negative. :D 23:46:23 *Ah, right*. 23:46:35 Pretty unsurprising. Hemingway reïnvented simple language. 23:46:41 pikhq 23:46:55 Diaereses are not necessary between different vowels. 23:46:59 Allow me to quote Finnegans Wake. 23:47:01 Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short sea, had passen- 4 23:47:01 core rearrived from North Armorica on this side the scraggy5 23:47:01 isthmus of Europe Minor to wielderfight his penisolate war: nor6 23:47:01 had topsawyer's rocks by the stream Oconee exaggerated themselse7 23:47:01 to Laurens County's gorgios while they went doublin their mumper8 23:47:01 all the time: nor avoice from afire bellowsed mishe mishe to9 23:47:04 tauftauf thuartpeatrick: not yet, though venissoon after, had a10 23:47:05 kidscad buttended a bland old isaac: not yet, though all's fair in11 23:47:07 vanessy, were sosie sesthers wroth with twone nathandjoe. Rot a12 23:47:09 peck of pa's malt had Jhem or Shen brewed by arclight and rory13 23:47:12 end to the regginbrow was to be seen ringsome on the aquaface. 23:47:15 Phantom_Hoover: Fuck yoü. :P 23:47:21 * elliott_ reads the last two pages of Finnegans Wake 23:47:24 Aw man, now I've spoilt it for myself. 23:47:25 elliott_: cool story, bro. 23:47:41 elliott_, I might be required to like Joyce on account of technical Irishness. 23:47:46 Do you see what I did there: it was a joke. 23:47:53 Although Ireland kind of sucks right now so I can't be bothered. 23:47:58 technical irishness, the best kind of irishness 23:48:00 Phantom_Hoover: Anyone who uses the word "tumptytumtoes" can't be that bad. 23:48:07 Or "humptyhillhead". Or "pftjschute". 23:48:10 Or... "upturnpikepointandplace"? 23:48:16 Or "bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk". 23:48:20 These are all from the first page. 23:48:28 Maybe he pioneered Markov chains. 23:48:37 elliott_: hey clearly that's a genuine welsh place name 23:48:56 James Joyce made up nine 101-letter words in his novel Finnegans Wake, the most famous of which is Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk. Appearing on the first page, it allegedly represents the symbolic thunderclap associated with the fall of Adam and Eve. As it appears nowhere else except in reference to this passage, it is generally not accepted as a real word. Sylvia Plath made mention o 23:48:56 f it in her semi-autobiographical novel The Bell Jar, when the protagonist was reading Finnegans Wake. 23:49:07 "Owing to the work's expansive linguistic experiments, stream of consciousness writing style, literary allusions, free dream associations, and its abandonment of the conventions of plot and character construction, Finnegans Wake remains largely unread by the general public." 23:49:18 It's all but saying "actually, it literally makes no sense at all". 23:49:19 pikhq, Banks. 23:49:29 Oh wait, noöne else reads the Culture novels. 23:51:07 none else would be a plausible norwegian female name 23:52:07 still going strong elliott_ 23:52:28 eek, a dane 23:52:39 even more plausible in danish, actually 23:53:28 ralc: so much stamina 23:53:40 or wait danes use double last names instead of first names, don't they