< 1305677171 484353 :DoA-TheGreat!~doa@m4.mullvad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1305677171 945505 :DoA-TheGreat!~doa@m4.mullvad.net PART :#esoteric < 1305677306 14376 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and his faithful dog DoB-Do < 1305677328 217718 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think you're so cool < 1305677332 914253 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me tell you something < 1305677522 236971 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305677602 51013 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i proved that every sequence in roman numeral look and say grows exponentially < 1305677612 527192 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you sneaky bastard! < 1305677621 81400 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1305677640 234774 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not yet sure whether it always grows at a constant limit speed though < 1305677661 619624 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell me later, i'm trying to get to work at a sensible time today < 1305677668 245424 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely now < 1305677674 607541 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the substring VIIIVIIIIVIIIVI always arises, and is self-replicating < 1305677717 975147 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1305677813 993616 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1305677819 50509 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are the breaks in that sequence < 1305677833 974311 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaks? < 1305677958 511747 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be 52434241 or 8986 or something else in between, depending on which standard you choose < 1305677972 722623 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1305677989 775088 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case there are no breaks < 1305678072 880163 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually there's a break before every letter < 1305678135 254791 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: can you tell me the details? < 1305678187 12123 :Tritonio!~TrT@150.140.233.232 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1305678394 521852 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I II III IV V VI (VII VIII ...) are the numerals i use (the larger ones disappear after two-three iterations) < 1305678418 91539 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I II III IIII IVI IIIVII IIIIIVIII VIIVIIII IVIIIIVIVI IIIVIVIIVIIIVII IIIIIVIIIVIIIIVIIIIIVIII VIIVIIIIIVIVIIVVIIVIIII IVIIIIVVIIVIIIVIIIIVIVIIIIVIVI IIIVIVIIVIVIIIIVIIIIIVIVIIVIIIVIVIIVIIIVII IIIII(VIIIVIIIIVIIIVI)VIIVVIIVIIIVIIIIVIIIIIVIIIVIIIIVIIIIIVIII < 1305678436 492016 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that looks right to start with < 1305678446 80311 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305678456 901789 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for V, the same thing happens + extre < 1305678459 135707 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*extra < 1305678459 462768 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: could you please put the breaks in as hyphens so i can tell the difference between 3 and 12? < 1305678463 42205 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you pasted my quote from yesterday < 1305678475 255618 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no i did that just now < 1305678483 740736 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: um they are melted together after each step < 1305678502 222265 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't all too careful but anyhow easy to believe, now i just have to make sure you didn't lie about self-replicating < 1305678516 510732 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :say IIIVII -> III-I I-V II-I -> IIIIIVIII < 1305678564 178944 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: note i needed to consider a few different environments, also i checked with a haskell program < 1305678566 518790 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :I I-I I-II I-III IV-I I-I-I-V-I-I III-I-I-V-II-I etc. < 1305678591 692830 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah environments < 1305678596 834659 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: um no other way around for some of those < 1305678598 655993 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not actually context-free is it... < 1305678642 575220 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: um what does that mean here... < 1305678677 295399 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that a I doesn't actually evolve like that if there's something around it < 1305678693 603329 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it essentially does, i haven't thought about this < 1305678717 876748 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :VIIIVIIIIVIIIVI IVIIIIIVIVIIVIIIIIVII IIIVVIIVIIIVIIIIVVIIVIII IIIIIIVIIIIVIIIIIVIVIIIVIIIIVIIII VIIIVIVIIVVIIVIIIVIIIIIVIVIIVIVI IVIIIIIVIIIVIIIIIVIIIIVIIIIIVVII(VIIIVIIIIVIIIVI)I aaaaaand we're there < 1305678747 48660 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: indeed. in fact that string i quoted is really |IIIVIIIIVIIIV| where the | signifies that if there is a letter on the other side it cannot be the same one < 1305678757 678555 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1305678765 758235 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1305678808 865890 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: the clue here is that if you remove all initial V's after each step, it looks like you are _very_ likely to hit something beginning with that string eventually < 1305678881 77104 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :idgi < 1305678904 77491 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can check that this is true for each of I, II, III, IV, IIV, ... IIIIIIV < 1305678993 785357 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not getting this at all man < 1305678995 710088 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all < 1305679003 390892 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: well to start with the beginning. the problem with this variation compared to ordinary look and say is that there are no atom boundaries (ignoring digits X, L etc. which don't matter after a few steps) < 1305679024 908292 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:14:50 you can tell me later, i'm trying to get to work at a sensible time today < 1305679030 536160 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :every sequence fluctuates between starting with I and starting with V < 1305679034 266677 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is 03:14:50 for him < 1305679035 611769 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1305679052 253228 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1305679116 398982 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what about it < 1305679123 390179 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually i haven't done the case analysis but anyhow < 1305679128 741119 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: morning work best of works < 1305679139 156292 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1305679153 761255 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have all the math to myself < 1305679155 626923 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i did, V -> I immediately and I -> V in at most 6 steps iirc < 1305679167 938831 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :VVVVV => VV < 1305679195 604677 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw you can have at most 2 V's and 6 I's in sequence after the 3rd or 4th generation or so < 1305679206 899279 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1305679223 570257 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then i'm good < 1305679261 249296 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it follows that every block of V's turns into either IV or IIV. thus every block of V's _always_ interacts with the previous block < 1305679344 683166 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if there's a five, then more I's before the V, and if there's an I, then more I's on the next generation < 1305679347 960872 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i therefore mostly merge them together, and treat my basic units as IV, IVV, IIV, IIVV, IIIV, IIIVV, IIIIV, IIIIVV, IIIIIV, IIIIIVV, IIIIIIV and IIIIIIVV < 1305679360 663872 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1305679377 716579 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with beginning and end of the whole string sometimes exempted < 1305679401 142971 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1305679417 389302 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we do this, we see that blocks can send information to the previous block, in the form of an extra V occasionally < 1305679428 465636 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: please tell me it's tc < 1305679432 983371 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll explode with happy < 1305679442 462227 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also only the blocks IIIIV and IIIIVV split into two blocks < 1305679453 124440 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can they send an extra V? < 1305679457 278300 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: i don't know yet, i've just shown it must grow exponentially < 1305679463 474413 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tell me anyway < 1305679474 366612 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well consider our fundamental example < 1305679498 904926 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tell me anyway < 1305679518 713075 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me it's tc < 1305679527 340447 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :|IIIV|IIIIV|IIIV| -> |IIIIIV|IV|IIV|IIIIIV| -> (V)|IIV|IIIV|IIIIVV|IIV| < 1305679536 66629 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.107.4 NICK :elliott < 1305679538 761582 :elliott!~elliott@91.105.107.4 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1305679547 131345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1305679550 640225 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: given four strings u, v, w and z it is RE-complete to tell whether z appears in the orbit of inf^u v w^inf < 1305679563 917088 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see that the blocks with 5 or more I's at each step turn into something beginning with V, which is then merged with the previous block < 1305679569 194411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: no i just want oerjan to tell me that it's tc < 1305679571 181276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kthx < 1305679580 875391 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: can you copy my line for elliott < 1305679597 341086 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1305679635 77122 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: he doesn't like me telling him things < 1305679656 571502 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1305679670 893335 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah five ones does indeed send a V < 1305679684 716972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I and V are the only characters right < 1305679696 655608 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe if it's tc you need to insert others, but that's kinda bleh < 1305679699 642756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(into the initial string) < 1305679719 516881 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the others if you include them shrink quickly to single isolated digits < 1305679727 623206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're irrelevant good < 1305679736 846690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can make a nice pretty drawing program ;D < 1305679738 736318 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be treated as simply equivalent to V followed by an atom boundary < 1305679752 205137 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also that's the sense in which 110 has been proven tc, in case someone missed the reference for some reason) < 1305679769 430184 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(these being the _only_ atom boundaries) < 1305679776 114865 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1305679854 882551 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: now notice that information can only flow leftward in this view < 1305679862 939359 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :noted < 1305679912 765347 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that we don't need to worry about what's to the left in order to find out how the blocks themselves evolve. thus i experimented with throwing away the initial V's at each step < 1305679928 382013 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ppl can have poop children to their left and also send a new V to their leftmost block < 1305679932 889554 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*neighbor < 1305679964 324025 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :alrighty < 1305679977 618951 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1305679983 791748 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i wanna know how that 110 proof goes < 1305680034 460700 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so oerjan you know the polynomial hierarchy right < 1305680064 368512 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well slightly, it's P^NP, P^P^NP etc. isn't it, and maybe something above that too < 1305680066 625205 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language is sparse if there are only at most p(n) elements of length at most n in it < 1305680085 600292 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's P^NP^NP^NP^NP... < 1305680099 168968 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :P^P^NP = P^NP < 1305680100 955247 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1305680119 662026 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1305680172 770235 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you define Sigma_0 = Pi_0 = P, and then Sigma_(i+1) = NP^Sigma_i, Pi_(i+1) = co-Sigma_i < 1305680185 817068 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point of Pi's being clear once i explain the alternative view to this < 1305680186 105 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know the details of that 110 proof i just know it's based on finding gliders that interact the way you want, and making a tag system out of them that requires infinite chain of incoming gliders from both left and right < 1305680233 191377 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are diagrams of the gliders on the net < 1305680257 863420 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably on wikipedia, although there was a site that went into some detail of classification) < 1305680266 580064 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma_i means you have i alternating quantifiers starting with existential, and Pi_i starts with universal, that is, we have an i-ary predicate, and in Sigma_i we guess the first word w_1, universally quantify over the next w_2, then guess the next and so on, and finally check the predicate for the original input and all the w_i < 1305680299 913232 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i-ary predicate that's a P language that is < 1305680331 929824 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah this fits into how QBF is PSPACE complete < 1305680350 59422 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in NP you guess a string of polynomial length, in Pi_1 you universally quantify over all strings of polynomial length, and in general there's alternation up to some length < 1305680390 608235 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does, although i'm not sure in which exact sense < 1305680410 142028 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, the polynomial hierarchy is just the union of the Sigma_i < 1305680424 21140 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what you are doing is just bounding the number of quantifier switches in a QBF problem, i think < 1305680462 804404 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but why does not bounding it give you PSPACE, is there a connection between PSPACE and PH? < 1305680468 31220 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, M-x rot13-other-window < 1305680472 218493 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than just inclusion < 1305680475 756113 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(having the same quantifier several times in sequence doesn't increase the count) < 1305680506 130334 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not bounding means having a polynomial rather than constant bound, i guess < 1305680522 528003 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also define some intermediate classes, namely Delta_(i + 1) = P^Sigma_i, and Theta_(i + 1) = polynomial deterministic languages except you can do a logarithmic amount of queries to Sigma_i < 1305680551 94949 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't they always < 1305680565 177416 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't they always what? define intermediate classes? :P < 1305680578 341303 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, now i can finally list some results < 1305680590 395960 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here know offhand how SMBC is licensed? < 1305680592 85404 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :generalize to the max < 1305680612 723162 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sure, but i'm not just giving Theta for fun, i'm using it in a second < 1305680635 64241 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we already know from my previous rants, if there is a sparse co-NP-hard or NP-hard language, then P = NP < 1305680646 282030 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the polynomial hierarchy collapses to P < 1305680655 725959 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by induction) < 1305680657 886968 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1305680660 148426 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1305680678 398580 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for hardness w.r.t. many-one reductions or bounded truth table reductions only < 1305680683 715723 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :familiar with those? < 1305680691 568211 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to go to bed very soon < 1305680706 580288 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not doing anything complicated, just giving neat results < 1305680714 624440 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1305680734 473657 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um as in you have five minutes < 1305680739 815462 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1305680745 829017 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : i don't know the details of that 110 proof i just know it's based on finding gliders that interact the way you want, and making a tag system out of them that requires infinite chain of incoming gliders from both left and right < 1305680748 357053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it actually proven? < 1305680749 335233 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well are you familiar with those? < 1305680754 71411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought thirty was but not one-one-zero < 1305680756 213908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I mixing those up? < 1305680766 43281 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing is known about 30 < 1305680769 886775 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: probably mixing up, 110 was the famous proof... < 1305680772 10934 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not the next on the list even < 1305680796 658595 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with patented wolfram inflation < 1305680797 128646 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :55 or something is the next one to be proven re-complete for the problem i just gave < 1305680811 334427 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the one with the dancing mushrooms < 1305680846 69776 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is that the totalistic one < 1305680853 213741 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: many-one reduction from L to L' means you have a deterministic polynomial time turing machine A s.t. w in L iff A(w) in L' < 1305680895 231821 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bounded truth table reductions mean you have some constant k such that you have a polynomial turing machine that can do exactly k queries to L', this amounts to just having a truth table < 1305680920 841706 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1305680938 672445 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for turing reductions, that is, having a sparse set S as the oracle, things get slightly more hairy < 1305680957 843161 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is a sparse NP-hard set S w.r.t. turing reductions < 1305680965 493709 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then PH = Sigma_2 < 1305680972 32707 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, NP^NP) < 1305680987 196439 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is a sparse NP-complete set S w.r.t. turing reductions < 1305680998 257303 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then PH = Omega_2 < 1305681012 925950 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(logarithmic amount of queries to NP) < 1305681027 619888 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all < 1305681042 226493 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i think you called Omega Theta above < 1305681049 248892 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i did, sorry < 1305681060 475144 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my head it's the actual symbol < 1305681062 863633 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i misread < 1305681063 650122 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1305681066 845877 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1305681075 15036 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thanks and good night < 1305681080 42804 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup nighties < 1305681087 580507 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1305681102 618838 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :will give the actual proofs once i grasp them a bit better < 1305681155 445304 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a sparse NP-complete set, the proof is not very hard, but for a hard one, it is not very complete. erm i mean it's pretty complicated. < 1305682034 431724 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1305682326 260925 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My linear algebra professor is pretty quick on grading. < 1305682336 755365 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already got the grade on my final. < 1305682344 635932 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was earlier today. < 1305682349 510266 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"E" < 1305682366 892795 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ? < 1305682391 12855 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1305682660 448477 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :our cellular automata exam was graded in about 30 minutes < 1305682669 970018 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again there were like 5 people taking it < 1305682695 417845 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, it does help when you're taking a class with a handful of other people. < 1305682719 4937 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could take that class. it sounds awesome. < 1305682722 768673 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now just waiting on one more class's grade. < 1305682763 115804 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cellular automata class was pretty awesome < 1305682914 719954 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lecture notes can be found at http://users.utu.fi/jkari/ca/, highly recommended < 1305682923 598250 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't really any books on ca < 1305682984 532607 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if someone says a new kind of science i'm going to explode :D < 1305683000 457057 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 should write one. < 1305683004 411294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: try a new kind of science < 1305683006 677056 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ais does ca? < 1305683013 76684 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm what does ais know < 1305683017 613208 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, he's done at least one at the behest of Wolfram. < 1305683030 881071 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy who wrote those lecture notes should write a book < 1305683044 31295 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt ais knows even the basics of ca theory < 1305683061 719429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: eh? < 1305683063 483616 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :although making specific ca's is of course a very useful skill < 1305683064 584465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two,three wasn't a ca < 1305683072 754896 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm sure ais is very good at that < 1305683079 839179 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it wasn't? Thought it was a CA. Anyways. < 1305683088 660448 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why I said that, anyways. < 1305683143 486006 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna say it too now, so you don't get too self-conscious < 1305683150 596296 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 should write a book on ca. < 1305683180 12139 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe finally worky time -> < 1305683220 674490 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are emacs regexp the same as perl's? < 1305683284 589512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no < 1305683294 357135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :emacs is older than perl i think anyway < 1305683295 563867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1305683303 967069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're more like posix regexps < 1305683695 761324 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. swedes are the most likely to be immune to HIV? damn you again, swedes! < 1305683798 504511 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305684023 478817 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1305684182 911704 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1305685198 575270 :CakeProphet!~adam@h198.3.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1305685198 693357 :CakeProphet!~adam@h198.3.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1305685198 693546 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1305685265 462115 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey, a perl regex extension. < 1305685303 964336 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, honestly, I don't really feel like learning an outdated regex syntax.. < 1305685463 697341 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many regex syntaxes are there? < 1305685467 97106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its literally identical < 1305685470 26755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from \ before ( and ) i think < 1305685482 782911 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: As many as there are implementations of regular expressions. < 1305685503 874128 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbf pikhq, they all have the basics the same < 1305685514 146406 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is always kleene star < 1305685521 719063 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] is always a character class < 1305685522 365065 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they do have a reasonable common subset. < 1305685542 920281 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helps that they're all pretty much reimplementations of ed regexps. < 1305685561 590480 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could at least do matching of arbitrary r.e.s with that common subset < 1305685602 915345 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :| requires escaping as well < 1305685628 25015 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the \ special characters are pretty different. < 1305685697 53694 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesn't seem to have lookaround. < 1305686034 412486 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww, the link is broken. No perl regex in emacs seems to exist. < 1305686277 106518 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305688034 163156 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, the Nazis had the most *amazing* hubris. < 1305688260 335877 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to write a language that compiles to LSL < 1305688284 741162 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so great about lsl < 1305688293 286904 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from it being used in second life < 1305688299 776761 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only thing good about it. < 1305688347 123316 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question now is what's so great about second life < 1305688443 131821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual world zomg < 1305688485 643958 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what could you possibly want to script in it < 1305688516 537432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Sgeo what's the function to form a range sequence in racket < 1305688518 427122 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A helmet that takes you 340 trillion trillion trillion meters up < 1305688521 440912 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for ([i ???]) ...) < 1305688528 735184 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in-range < 1305688536 968491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right that < 1305688550 313527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im making an HQ9+ interpreter dude < 1305688552 394359 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You started making fun of me again when I was pulling my hair out looking for it < 1305688554 765060 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want to go 340 trillion trillion trillion meters up in second life < 1305688558 949379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yep < 1305688562 595275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except mine is better cuz its an actual racket language < 1305688568 436973 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh snap < 1305688573 200980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305688578 180301 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up on mine when it stopped being fun < 1305688586 581280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#lang reader "hq9+.rkt" < 1305688587 595274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ < 1305688590 203074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally a valid program now < 1305688592 599097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you install it globally < 1305688594 723854 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#lang hq9+ < 1305688595 763447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ < 1305688600 551351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even exports the final accumulator as a module < 1305688607 599953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckin' integrated up the ass < 1305688620 534863 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't really read about or absorbed the module system < 1305688652 18010 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what's better than Second Life? < 1305688654 754091 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Minecraft*. < 1305688666 33947 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there's no scripting in Minecraft < 1305688678 431215 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There's Redstone. What else could you want? < 1305688705 520692 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability for redstone to affect any change I want in the area around it < 1305688713 566271 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEATHEN < 1305688729 38359 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pistons < 1305688754 300374 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :racket's documentation is awesome < 1305688925 480697 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305689053 735516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Sgeo what's the function to concat n sequences < 1305689740 708252 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably something ending in -append or -append*? < 1305689771 760 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it stream-concat < 1305689788 638887 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno what a sequence is but < 1305689790 207774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stream-append < 1305689792 246278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1305689793 662396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequence-append < 1305689799 907584 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1305689811 689061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just thinking now how to handle the ~elegance~ < 1305689813 358481 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that in-range thing said it made a stream I think?? < 1305689830 348347 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, streams are sequences < 1305689856 917308 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I searched for stream concat and found stream-concat I guess < 1305689864 500725 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should actually learn racket sometime < 1305689895 264282 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stream-concat is in one of Racket's SRFI thingies < 1305689903 108554 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :srfi 41 < 1305689918 119642 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme request for implementation right < 1305689958 535510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :begin (possibly implicit): bad syntax (illegal use of `.') in: (begin . #) < 1305689959 27388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1305689963 730086 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yes < 1305689984 587701 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :racket is intimidating < 1305690001 789153 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much standard library & other extra stuff < 1305690082 375209 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :things with # in them are especially spooky < 1305690155 252733 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1305690236 543636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1305690239 303218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does for actually result in anything < 1305690247 127727 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it called when an anonymous function can access and read variables bound at the higher level, like a closure, but can't modify them such that the higher level sees the modification? < 1305690292 171442 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i need for/list < 1305690306 167306 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even sgeo knew to use for/list < 1305690309 217124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: can they still mutate the objects if they're mutable? < 1305690311 834893 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should learn from the master < 1305690312 361894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. append to a list in a higher scope < 1305690365 248395 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Not sure. Let's say yes (Although I want to know the answer for no too) < 1305690497 574974 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: then python two scoping is what it is calle < 1305690497 988809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1305690500 67252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka terrible scoping < 1305690540 55940 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, keep in mind that I am n00bishly trying to imagine how I'd compile a language with lambdas into a language without them < 1305690574 563685 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd make a huge funcall() function, which would accept a string naming the function, a list of bindings for the "closure", and a list of arguments < 1305690574 665307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, everything works but Q as a FULL RACKET LANGUAGE < 1305690619 723958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1305690621 345697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just < 1305690625 402564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :transform scopes into mutable structures < 1305690632 43918 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with pointers to their parent scopes < 1305690641 357206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have a closure be code + scope < 1305690645 885270 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you even want mutability < 1305690722 194245 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right you probably can't optimize the lsl or whatever it is very well to make up for a pure functional language < 1305690737 390377 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think LSL has tail recursion. Easy fix: Functions (after being transformed into something vaguely-CPS-like) just return the next function, instead of calling it < 1305690760 280677 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so trampolining? < 1305690764 201100 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1305690770 331675 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc what trampolining is < 1305690803 940605 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also do TCO on it if you have the necessary control structures < 1305690810 413110 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you probably don't) < 1305690878 540947 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my current vague plan is to go code with continuations -> intermediate language with first class functions in CPS -> LSL < 1305690893 764860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :. hq9+.rkt:11:0: read: expected a `)' to close `('; indentation suggests a missing `)' before line 15; newline within string suggests a missing '"' on line 38 < 1305690899 138682 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> hats that take you into the air < 1305690901 707496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Why do you need continuations < 1305690909 488190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see. < 1305690920 567348 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's useful for making hats or something < 1305690939 730886 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: did you actually understand what i said about scopes < 1305690980 563863 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not.. really, no... but are you asking just to ask, or do you think it's relevant to why I want continuations (it isn't) < 1305691001 296217 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i was asking because otherwise you're going to implement it terribly? < 1305691009 565444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but im actually surprised you've managed to not understand something that simple, gj < 1305691709 564632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1305691749 250095 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1305691923 186646 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1305691996 917836 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking Linnaean taxonomy. < 1305692000 601419 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does anyone still use it? < 1305692139 166451 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :inertia < 1305692145 92578 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck inertia. < 1305692164 986085 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is your country still serving me drinks in some unit called an 'ounce' < 1305692169 23596 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to be confused with an 'ounce' < 1305692182 181618 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because we hate everyone outside the country. < 1305692196 141116 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :im in ur country < 1305692198 262701 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :working ur jobz < 1305692200 240584 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the unit is a "fluid ounce". Not to be confused with the "dry ounce" or the "ounce". < 1305692220 466448 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: dry ounce archaic) < 1305692814 163362 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, duh < 1305692818 404445 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand what you said < 1305692872 847330 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And e left < 1305693102 80345 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't use native assignment < 1305693110 750308 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I can't use much of native anything < 1305693129 853527 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't use native while < 1305693147 615893 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least, not at the continuation-using -> CPS level) < 1305693194 888645 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs assignment < 1305693440 497468 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1305693463 422921 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSL has a lot of issues. I'm not going to deviate that far from the host language < 1305693474 453284 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just fixing the most pressing issue I see. < 1305693493 141588 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no continuations" < 1305693501 232386 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1305693552 68963 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have first-class functions or proper closures or anonymous functions or anything? I imagine that would be a far more pressing issue < 1305693628 671708 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No first class functions or closures or anonymous functions < 1305693638 141290 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those will be added, then continuations on top of that < 1305693655 298012 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/2i0AfxhS how to make a thing that repeats what others say < 1305693663 871332 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just call a function that gets the last thing said < 1305693700 333224 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or call a function that takes a closure as a callback < 1305693714 82286 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is awful < 1305693730 448718 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION agrees.
< 1305693740 103205 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you were mocking me < 1305693747 641439 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no this is legitimately awful < 1305694113 7485 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, considering that I'm not going to implement "last thing said" but instead "next thing said"... < 1305697376 713379 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1305697675 509992 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305700393 4338 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. < 1305700401 11280 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does trampolining require CPS? < 1305700471 479204 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it requires tail calls so you'd need continuations if you want to do fancy stuff < 1305700487 500716 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you ask? < 1305700549 290869 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was planning on making an intermediate language with TCO and first-class functions etc., but can't imagine how outside of a CPS style < 1305700582 242996 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: convert to CPS < 1305700600 647883 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, just do the continuation-passing transform. < 1305700759 728170 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1305700765 542627 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has homework he needs to do rght now
< 1305700771 67032 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of thinking about this < 1305700771 771054 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1305700891 98137 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Difficulty: I don't know where any of the papers are < 1305701036 486910 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305701270 103875 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPS? Continuation Passing Style? < 1305701281 840941 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1305701589 902152 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do if, while, etc. get transformed into functions? I think they _might_ < 1305701612 168176 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1305701648 195370 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should start writing down my thoughts. Or start doing homework, that might be better. < 1305701776 920183 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean get transformed into functions < 1305702050 846576 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, I make a while(somecode, someothercode, args-for-cps...) thing < 1305702094 917144 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't leave a while(){} loop stay a native while(){} loop < 1305702147 995376 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1305702148 622408 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering now if I should make an intermediary language with functional stuff but no TCO, and put TCO+CPS on top of it < 1305702234 766255 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305702250 248196 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1305702285 384278 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The important thing I think is that I can't do TCO without CPS or visa versa. Doesn't mean I can't do first-class functions without those. < 1305702364 115701 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I ultimately need a funcall kind of function for the functional layer, and I don't want to make another on top of that just... hmmm < 1305702442 210702 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure TCO just means you make tail calls use/replace the current call frame rather than making a new one (and keeping the old one around until you return, but since it's a tail call you won't be doing anything else, so keeping it around is useless) < 1305702488 466820 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what TCO means, but I can't really implement it without trampolining, and to do trampolining I need CPS < 1305702489 109776 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCO goes nicely with CPS because iirc CPS means every call is necessarily a tail call < 1305702500 173091 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you don't need CPS but < 1305702508 940940 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd only be able to do the trampolining on tail calls < 1305702513 658118 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1305702517 532523 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, hold on < 1305702534 516990 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, right >.> < 1305702561 464850 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason, I was mentally applying trampolining to everything, including non-tail-calls < 1305702607 379226 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for while loops, you don't need them at all < 1305702614 345633 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use recursion < 1305702630 108123 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My syntax is going to be LSL-like < 1305702635 192958 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With obvious additions < 1305702643 326299 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) why? (2) what does that mean < 1305702671 962516 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) I want it to be easy for those used to LSL to use. 2) What do you mean, what does it mean? It means I'm not implementing a Scheme < 1305702728 10619 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean does it seriously have major semantic ramifications < 1305702765 226522 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1305702774 687662 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am scrapping the stupid events in place of something else < 1305702781 303224 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think the semantic differences between your language and LSL would be a lot more meaningful than syntax < 1305702805 940102 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my syntax will still have while loops. < 1305702807 253057 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally wouldn't hold onto the old syntax for false familiarity < 1305702812 122565 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want while loops < 1305702814 870317 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though I transform them into something else < 1305702841 27672 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because people know how to use them? < 1305702866 488218 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantics of new language: LSL with first-class functions + TCO + Continuations < 1305702870 514354 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roughly < 1305702877 756375 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm assuming people who want to use your language know something or two about those things < 1305702886 24050 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm assuming people who know those things know about recursion < 1305702905 372649 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, they might not. I'm hoping my sample code will amaze and astound < 1305702911 86257 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1305702927 196110 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuations are sort of not as easy to grasp as recursion < 1305702949 336028 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, but a standard library using them will be < 1305702982 408282 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about first-class functions, closures, &c., then < 1305702984 798271 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, you can just get the next line that will be said in chat with: list line = cpsListen(0, "", NULL_KEY, "")" < 1305703024 297069 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, I'll mention those too. Anyone who wants to use them can use them. < 1305703028 800634 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, is while going to be specially handled by your compiler or just a macro < 1305703038 906660 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specially handled < 1305703043 19559 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1305703286 318670 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you can implement it in terms of if and whatever recursion deal you use, so I wouldn't worry about it < 1305703370 619964 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for if, I think the simplest way to do it is if you implement it as a primitive operation that takes a boolean and two continuations, and evaluates to the corresponding continuation < 1305704012 506058 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote pregnant < 1305704015 638611 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​194) Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. what whaaaaaaaaaaaat \ 195) the pregnant ones are usually taken already. \ 235) (had real world issues) (to deal with) Vorpal's pregnant. yes < 1305704143 48104 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1305704308 593740 :cheater79!~cheater23@ip-80-226-16-83.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote birth < 1305704310 177222 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​160) anmaster gonna give him a birthday bj? IF ONLY I COULD FIND MY PHONE \ 259) And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?) \ 350) < 1305704338 796817 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZOMGODULES _what_? < 1305704349 219553 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 350 < 1305704350 612539 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​350) elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. < 1305704366 758759 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes pregnant < 1305704368 454972 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25433 < 1305704394 437446 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes birth < 1305704395 648527 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9871 < 1305704414 722330 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Gregor Fix your `quote < 1305704414 830065 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1305705231 210389 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How was it broken now? < 1305705404 273487 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also that @tell is one of the worst bug reports ever.) < 1305705511 161104 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1305705528 323773 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there's more to the birth stuff than shown n canenl < 1305705529 587589 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :channel < 1305705551 381195 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell `quote birth doesn't show all birth quotes. < 1305705551 463184 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1305705557 348422 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION facepalms
< 1305705565 890842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Gregor `quote birth doesn't show all birth quotes. < 1305705565 972540 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1305705647 214950 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I hardly think IRC's message length limit is Gregor's fault. < 1305705662 871860 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it could give some indication that it has been reached... < 1305705907 635339 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even that is not really something the `quote command should worry about. (It doesn't do that wrapping to one line with \s either.) < 1305705944 258179 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, HackEgo should worry bout it then < 1305705945 34513 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :about < 1305706023 191778 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote dead < 1305706024 709680 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​225) it seems that CUIL is dead \ 367) haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards" < 1305706029 740801 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote hug < 1305706031 454370 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​314) back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. < 1305709213 515240 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1305709593 453197 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading that CA lecture from a while back and it got me thinking, anyone ever played around with hexagonal CAs? < 1305709614 411029 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use mirek's cellebration and the direction weighted rules to write one < 1305709646 277907 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I suspect it wouldn't be too interesting without diagonals < 1305709722 854138 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah, it'd be really claustrophobic < 1305711740 141128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1305714126 903758 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305714372 439756 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone about < 1305714422 284392 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm messing around with some openGL for a university assignment, and I'm running into a really weird behaviour. Only half of my scene is receiving diffuse/specular light < 1305714467 134214 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, my light is directional for some reason < 1305714472 513837 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what's doing it, because I never set it to be one < 1305715376 122567 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1305716281 608315 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1305716287 284979 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently all I had to do was specify normal vectors < 1305716322 323238 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305716583 793833 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do remember to enable GL_NORMALIZE or GL_RESCALE_NORMAL if you intend to use a modelview matrix that has scaling in it, to avoid non-unit-length-normal related lighting issues. < 1305718182 98439 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1305720212 877418 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1305720733 953401 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, I'll do that < 1305720822 180998 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't find GL_RESCALE_NORMAL so going with the first < 1305721893 526774 :HolyBlood!jassumjas@77.29.10.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305721981 274305 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first is potentially slower. (But also works when the modelview matrix has nonuniform scaling.) < 1305722014 325868 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Neither's needed if you don't scale at all and always provide unit-length normals.) < 1305722517 91153 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :next part's going to be tough: I have to model the sydney opera house using NURBS < 1305722527 112369 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. create something that, if you squint at it funny, looks like you were trying to make the sydney opera house < 1305722608 329623 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to use nurbs as in what commands activate it in opengl, I don't know how to use nurbs as in 'if I want a shape like THIS then I set control points and knot vectors like THIS and dun' < 1305722751 3367 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I was reading that CA lecture from a while back and it got me thinking, anyone ever played around with hexagonal CAs?" <<< in what sense? < 1305722762 391374 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d ca on a hexagona grid? < 1305722788 470198 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a CA that instead of having a chessboard topology has a hexagonal topology, yeah < 1305722795 229530 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :each of those is easily seen to be conjugate to a normal 2d ca < 1305722805 524652 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought about it for a bit and it was really...constrained, with 6 neighbours vs 8 < 1305722806 348650 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1305722808 601500 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :careful about the use of "topology" there < 1305722834 170418 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that "topology" usually refers to the actual topology of the space of configurations < 1305722840 348952 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather different < 1305722867 844872 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: usually CA can have an arbitrarily large neighborhood < 1305722897 74324 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305722955 609794 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if you don't have that, if F is an arbitrary CA with arbitrary nbhd size, you can find a subshift S and a CA G with a "radius 1" neighborhood operating on S such that (S, G) is conjugate to your CA F. conjugate means "is essentially the same CA" and subshift means you don't take all possible starting configurations, but a natural subset < 1305722984 684986 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably a bit hard to internalize but i just gave an hour long lecture so not feeling particularly ranty < 1305723067 663700 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i just said was that the CA that only look at their nextdoor neighbors when deciding on the new state are essentially the same thing as all CA < 1305723080 597313 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm... < 1305723085 639145 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're all turing complete, I guess? < 1305723100 606970 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can always find another CA that can compute the same things? < 1305723102 143650 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not quite < 1305723106 794487 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather your latter statement < 1305723148 272043 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for instance consider this < 1305723156 920494 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a 1d ca that has neighborhood radius 3 < 1305723182 753639 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its local function, when deciding the new state at position x, looks at x-3, x-2, x-1, x, x+1, x+2 and x+3 < 1305723201 626540 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now call the finite set of states S < 1305723221 271157 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the states you use in the configurations, in game of life those S = {0, 1}) < 1305723224 556181 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-those < 1305723236 933811 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we can construct another CA as follows < 1305723252 744647 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the new states take S^6 < 1305723300 867512 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the idea is the new state of (x_1, ..., x_6) < 1305723326 200659 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can be computed by just looking at the left and right neighbor, and the old state of (x_1, ..., x_6) < 1305723381 968094 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we think of the configuration ...(x_1, ..., x_6)(y_1, ..., y_6)(z_1, ..., z_6)... as being a "compressed" version of ... x_1 ... x_6 y_1 ... y_6 z_1 ... z_6 ... < 1305723385 610977 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make any sense? < 1305723423 345842 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll gladly explain notation if that's unclear < 1305723489 2538 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :S^6 means you're having ^6 as many states, so you can represent all the possible combinations of x-3, x-2...etc in just one spot? < 1305723495 952890 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1305723501 847455 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :S^6 is just standard mathematical notation < 1305723503 496515 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305723511 787216 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means SxSxSxSxSxS where x is cartesian product < 1305723519 250888 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1305723526 106540 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, set multiplication < 1305723532 71019 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so S^6 means we group 6 states into one. < 1305723534 580591 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1305723535 273645 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305723541 931324 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1305723554 854225 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you've grouped 6 states into one, a rule with radius 3 only needs to look at the nextdoor neighbors < 1305723555 86357 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even realise there was a channel called # < 1305723563 917543 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a channel called # < 1305723568 315229 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have made some sort of typo, as I ended up joining it automatically when I started this webclient < 1305723582 798023 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if anyone there was there deliberately, there were about 15 people < 1305723589 604917 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's interesting, but things get WAY more interesting than that < 1305723599 811740 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably set up as a hipster establishment < 1305723612 647467 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. 'cool club for cool people who know that you can have channels called bizzare non-things' < 1305723771 2697 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cool kats < 1305723776 627375 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't leave that unharnassed < 1305723791 748136 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in any case as i said the hexagonal grid is just the 2D CA, but in fact people have done research on CA running on weirdly shaped configurations, iirc the garden of eden theorem for instance has been generalized for all automatic groups by this famous blind guy < 1305723839 803477 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :garden of eden theorem = CA is surjective iff it's locally injective < 1305723848 211472 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :surjective meaning all configurations have a preimage < 1305723864 418340 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and locally injective meaning there cannot be two configurations that have the same image and only differ in a finite amount of cells < 1305723911 568519 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and image of configuration c of course means G(c) where G is your automaton, and similarly for preimage) < 1305723957 347719 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic group = certain kind of group, not very restrictive afaiu < 1305723986 632391 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are patterns in the game of life that collapse into the same thing, e.g. if you just add a random on cell out in the middle of nowhere < 1305723989 42063 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not surjective < 1305724001 500258 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite group is the natural place to run a CA, it means an infinite graph that looks the same no matter where you look < 1305724011 725309 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: yes! < 1305724016 992783 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1305724030 301751 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact it is very hard to show GoL is surjective without the garden of eden theorem < 1305724050 955342 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the smallest pattern without a preimage (proving nonsurjectivity) is of size more than 10x10 < 1305724072 268541 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and even after you find that it's certainly not easy to show it doesn't have a preimage) < 1305724092 522806 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of surprising it has to be that large < 1305724106 839021 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one says it has to be large < 1305724111 265339 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1305724113 138852 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in the game of life < 1305724114 700088 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :smallest KNOWN pattern < 1305724116 366775 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1305724131 800234 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but I mean, you'd think there'd be a trivial example < 1305724154 787638 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what patterns in the game of life turns into an arbitrarily big square of on cells? < 1305724166 691809 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would, but this is how it usually goes, hard to show nonsurjectivity, but easy to show local noninjectivity, which is proven to be equal to nonsurjectivity by the theory < 1305724174 889331 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the smallest pattern with no known preimage? < 1305724180 871565 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden_(cellular_automaton) < 1305724186 785375 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's different from the smallest known pattern with no preimage) < 1305724190 51683 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1305724191 60799 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right < 1305724208 373301 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: it's easy to check whether something of size smaller than 10x10 has a preimage < 1305724219 127323 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :via brute force? < 1305724221 649222 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there probably isn't a known example of something we don't know a preimage for < 1305724223 446283 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: yes < 1305724229 959317 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1305724234 275121 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*easy enough < 1305724256 435306 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: who's right? < 1305724262 992858 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof of the garden of eden theorem seems similar to the pigeonhole principle < 1305724281 228350 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pretty much is, isn't it? < 1305724288 463834 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've probably proven it here some time < 1305724293 658251 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyhow the 1D case is very easy < 1305724308 502359 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the finite case is also very easy < 1305724319 583446 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lecture notes i linked earlier have a very nice illustration of the proof for a 1D automaton < 1305724322 270100 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: what does that mean? < 1305724343 898413 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean CA running on a finite group? :D < 1305724350 131029 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: or on a finite playfield < 1305724353 344450 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Life on a torus < 1305724370 287869 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah then it's trivial that surjectivity = injectivity of course < 1305724375 991844 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ep < 1305724378 230640 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yep < 1305724383 375282 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the proof is even easier < 1305724387 112793 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and injectivity = local injectivity by definition < 1305724399 147918 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier, yes, but that's just set theory < 1305724415 300669 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing CA specific about it < 1305724417 289506 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might even be possible to prove in pure category theory < 1305724421 561966 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the infinite cases < 1305724437 271212 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_%26_Night I've always found this to be a very cool CA < 1305724445 636141 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as vibrant as the game of life < 1305724449 380956 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and symmetric < 1305724476 495523 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's kind of pretty < 1305724483 685016 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: can C have monads? < 1305724490 314785 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you download mirek's cellebration it has lots of examples for day and night < 1305724503 355404 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sparkers of lots of periods, spaceships, spaceship guns, novas... < 1305724506 399168 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: I think pretty much any language can, but in C they'd be so awkward to express in a functional way that it probably wouldn't be worth it < 1305724520 108543 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: the theorem that CA = continuous shift commuting functions on any playfield can be proven by just using category theory < 1305724539 424733 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it sounds like the sort of thing that would eb < 1305724540 31599 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*be < 1305724567 176529 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :every CA is obviously continuous and shift commuting, but the other direction was one of the first results in CA theory < 1305724575 648580 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays considered trivial < 1305724586 866418 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: what would a monad do in an imperative language? < 1305724591 610713 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I was thinking "isn't that obvious? oh right" < 1305724599 55903 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: let's make it easier and take an imperative, functional language like python < 1305724601 885763 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: control computation flow < 1305724610 935082 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but like < 1305724611 953896 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a simple example that came up in my job recently < 1305724619 238187 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that look in python? < 1305724620 931359 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok go on < 1305724621 211972 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it that in openGL you define normals on vertices, not surfaces... < 1305724626 242749 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose I have a set of constraints, and I want to transform them into a simpler set of constraints < 1305724633 271015 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: i doubt it's obvious to people who don't know the topology of the configuration space at least < 1305724635 670073 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the constraints are useless things like 0 <= 0 that I want to delete < 1305724636 356764 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know it? < 1305724643 370201 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: no < 1305724647 425854 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised it was only obvious in one direction < 1305724651 171607 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305724657 208124 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: because normals on higher-dimension cells are just interpolations. < 1305724665 622496 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: and some of the other constraints are things like xy = 0, which I want to transform into x = 0 and y = 0 < 1305724670 701965 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas you can't interpolate when you go to a lower dimension. < 1305724688 514697 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topology is such that continuity of G essentially means "if you change something in c, the image of G(c) only changes in a finite amount of places" < 1305724708 471941 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: you mean x = 0 or y = 0 < 1305724711 853696 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: but ok, go on < 1305724716 11380 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: err, right < 1305724717 627149 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not quite what it means, but close enough < 1305724721 496210 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual example was more complicated < 1305724725 635823 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it needs to be an and for this to work < 1305724726 150581 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305724748 838687 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say, xy <= z implies x <= z and y <= z, as I was working with positive integers at the time < 1305724752 555836 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that one's correct < 1305724764 856515 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what I did, when I was writing in OCaml, was I wrote a function that took a constraint as an argument, and returned a list of constraints < 1305724765 22266 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't < 1305724772 82138 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is for positive integers, right? < 1305724776 47460 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1305724780 240196 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :counterexample? < 1305724791 191511 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 <= 1, 2 > 1, 0.5 < 1 < 1305724796 73066 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1305724802 636565 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when was 0.5 a positive integer? < 1305724806 599850 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how this discussion has turned to the arbitrary examples being wrong therefore you are wrong < 1305724808 559763 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, *integers* < 1305724810 263785 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1305724821 119888 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, then it's obviously true :D < 1305724826 380374 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok go on please < 1305724831 154168 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: nah, it's just trying to get things straight otherwise the examples wouldn't work well < 1305724834 317851 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's take that example, it is correct < 1305724839 391109 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305724841 185299 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: well that's called a counterexample < 1305724857 116002 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a universal quantifier in ais523_'s statement < 1305724863 860505 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, I have this function, let's call it transformConstraints, which transforms 0<=0 into [] and xy<=z into [x<=z; y<=z] < 1305724872 377738 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just need a specific example for which it doesn't hold to disprove it < 1305724883 576223 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what I do, is I apply it to every element of my constraints, so I write List.concat (List.map transformConstraints constraints) < 1305724891 432006 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I realised I'd written a monad < 1305724908 443890 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, there's no actual reason for the constraints to be in a list, as the order isn't relevant < 1305724916 22178 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :although after you made the connection GoL locally noninjective => GoL nonsurjective, maybe i shouldn't assume you're an idiot < 1305724916 439982 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I could just as easily have used a set, or a multiset, or whatever < 1305724930 478181 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/Logos/comments/hdzll/reddit_logos_for_the_72_hour_countdown_for_the/ < 1305724950 185404 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Bible Guarantees It! < 1305724956 330929 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: ok, go on < 1305724960 521421 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was basically writing a monad action there < 1305724969 925979 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take a number of possible computation paths, and transform each into a set of others < 1305724991 588941 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reddit better do this. < 1305724999 406367 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, say, in the case of Maybe, if you get Nothing as input you produce Nothing as output, always, if you get Just x you produce either Just y or Nothing as output < 1305725012 513047 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of List and Set, you can produce multiple outputs, each of which is then treated independently from then on < 1305725033 887695 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the List monad, you have concatMap as >>=, and \x -> [x] as return < 1305725076 98486 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just what I was doing in that OCaml code; if I couldn't transform a constraint I left it alone (i.e. calling return), if I could I returned 0 or 1 or more results, and I concatMaped them together < 1305725113 329267 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so, if I was working in Haskell, I could just have transformed 0<=0 into mzero and xy<=z into x<=z `mplus` y<=z < 1305725119 339671 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it'd have worked in any MonadPlus at all < 1305725140 678099 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the difference between MonadPlus and Monad is that in MonadPlus, there's also an operator `mplus` for combining multiple outputs) < 1305725148 416370 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* (return x<=z `mplus` return y<=z) < 1305725171 590457 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, I could have run transformConstraints in any MonadPlus at all, and it wouldn't be constrained to lists < 1305725189 454473 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there, there's a situation where I used a monad in OCaml, and didn't even notice until after I'd written the program < 1305725209 15515 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could do it on trees too? < 1305725211 181427 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do exactly the same thing in Python, again quite easily by mistake < 1305725225 754153 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with trees is that they don't quite have the same sort of structure < 1305725241 626127 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1305725243 965785 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all monads really do is add an "a before b" structure to expression evaluation; that's how the list knows which order it should end up in < 1305725247 852314 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no never mind < 1305725252 852056 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to know about trees < 1305725257 544704 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead answer this: < 1305725263 931128 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : I take a number of possible computation paths << you do? < 1305725268 61748 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'd instead written (return y<=z `mplus` return x<=z), it would output a diffeerent way round < 1305725277 2157 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are these computation paths? < 1305725281 265741 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: well, I'm not just transforming one constraint, but many < 1305725289 702072 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, so? < 1305725296 417539 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does that take us? < 1305725312 356263 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the version of transformConstraint I wrote took only one constraint as an argument, and I had to pass it to concatMap in order to make it take more < 1305725320 73676 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I really wanted to transform a list of constraints < 1305725345 8581 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each of those can be thought of as a separate computation < 1305725362 774976 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're each treated independently < 1305725376 105076 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle set < 1305725376 244119 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :module Data.Set < 1305725376 325916 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Set data Set a < 1305725376 325995 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Network.Browser setAllowBasicAuth :: Bool -> BrowserAction t () < 1305725391 333894 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my homework is i have to prove predicates and implications form a lattice, in HOL < 1305725395 110386 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle x -> (Set x) < 1305725395 327508 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Set singleton :: a -> Set a < 1305725395 432381 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Set deleteMax :: Set a -> Set a < 1305725395 514419 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Set deleteMin :: Set a -> Set a < 1305725405 435425 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexy < 1305725430 314224 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, now I have to remember which of lift and liftM is which < 1305725431 443674 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll cheat < 1305725437 843165 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t lift < 1305725438 451888 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ambiguous occurrence `lift' < 1305725438 547045 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : It could refer to either `Control.Monad.Error.lift', imported from Control.Monad.Error < 1305725438 628958 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : or `Control.Monad.Logic.lift', imported from Control.Monad.Logic < 1305725443 713514 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t liftM < 1305725444 284526 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a1 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r < 1305725469 312515 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the Haskell function that takes a -> M x to M a -> M x? < 1305725496 737240 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Monad M => (a -> M b) -> (M a -> M b) < 1305725496 975324 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you mean: a -> M b -> M a -> M b /count=20 < 1305725497 72275 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b < 1305725497 154252 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b < 1305725546 932095 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm confused now < 1305725572 230545 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (=<<) singleton 4 < 1305725572 894342 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `singleton' < 1305725578 99804 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a tired < 1305725578 221447 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (=<<) Data.Set.singleton 4 < 1305725578 803620 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `Data.Set.singleton' < 1305725588 887898 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (=<<) (\x -> [x]) 4 < 1305725589 474791 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) < 1305725589 555961 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `e_14' at *) a (t :: (* -> *) -> * -> *). (Control.Monad.Logic.MonadTrans t, Monad m) => m a -> t m a < 1305725635 431046 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :LiftM2? < 1305725640 688578 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :liftM2? < 1305725642 362503 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle (m m a) -> (m a) < 1305725642 605590 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative unwrapMonad :: WrappedMonad m a -> m a < 1305725642 687498 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Regex.Base.RegexLike getAllMatches :: AllMatches f b -> f b < 1305725642 687583 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Regex.Base.RegexLike getAllSubmatches :: AllSubmatches f b -> f b < 1305725647 983339 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t liftM2 < 1305725648 663881 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a1 a2 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r < 1305725662 360826 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: that and liftM are just wrapping a normal function into a monad < 1305725682 955402 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'm being stupid < 1305725702 262854 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm looking for is id, because I forgot how monads worked < 1305725713 584825 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah it was =<< < 1305725714 904887 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways < 1305725718 104405 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right ok < 1305725792 467422 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> if x = 2 then [2,3] else [x]) in do {a <- f 4; f a} < 1305725792 979321 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `=' < 1305725805 712517 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm muddling Haskell and OCaml < 1305725828 48437 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t if < 1305725828 685475 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) < 1305725840 83624 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x = 2) then [2,3] else [x])) in do {a <- f 4; f a} < 1305725840 693787 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `=' < 1305725847 21042 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then [2,3] else [x])) in do {a <- f 4; f a} < 1305725847 586949 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [4] < 1305725853 83532 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then [2,3] else [x])) in do {a <- f 2; f a} < 1305725854 76474 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,3] < 1305725856 792295 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1305725872 947907 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f x = [2, 3] if x is 2 else [x] in do {a <- f 4; f a} < 1305725873 632117 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `if' < 1305725875 754579 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then 2 `mplus` 3 else mzero)) in do {a <- f 2; f a} < 1305725876 448719 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instances for (GHC.Num.Num (m a), GHC.Num.Num (m b)) < 1305725876 529602 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a u... < 1305725885 984815 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then 2 `mplus` 3 else mzero)) in do {a <- f 2; f a} :: [Int] < 1305725886 540099 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Int]) < 1305725886 621658 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `f' ... < 1305725887 659759 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f x = [2, 3] if x == 2 else [x] in do {a <- f 4; f a} < 1305725888 270132 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `if' < 1305725890 650601 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1305725891 91694 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf. < 1305725896 944035 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 < 1305725897 539833 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 < 1305725901 375889 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then 2 `mplus` 3 else mzero)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: [Int] < 1305725902 67692 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Int]) < 1305725902 149533 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `f' ... < 1305725906 148228 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then 2 `mplus` 3 else mzero)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: [Integer] < 1305725906 739141 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Integer.Type.Integer]) < 1305725906 820914 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a ... < 1305725907 461027 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :>2 if 2 == x else 3 < 1305725912 520670 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :>2 if 2 == 2 else 3 < 1305725920 306999 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 if 2 == 2 else 3 < 1305725920 861165 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `if' < 1305725923 271623 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: it's if a == b then c else d < 1305725931 83262 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> if 2 == 2 then 3 else 4 < 1305725931 738442 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 < 1305725938 270640 :azaq23!~derivecto@pD9E34F48.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1305725938 906452 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got muddled because OCaml uses = not == < 1305725942 176430 :azaq23!~derivecto@pD9E34F48.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Changing host < 1305725942 258320 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305725965 569516 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then 2 `mplus` 3 else mzero)) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305725966 217312 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) < 1305725966 298417 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `f' at let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (2 `mplus` 3) else mzero)) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305725983 713731 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) < 1305725983 794925 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `f' at let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else mzero)) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305726036 132620 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3] < 1305726037 21811 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same mistake I made and corrected earlier < 1305726055 151210 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, hmm, I expected [2,3,3] there < 1305726066 346312 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then [2,3] else [x])) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305726067 34096 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,3] < 1305726074 110171 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the map id stuff is just to force it to interpret the output as a list) < 1305726083 250814 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, duh < 1305726090 490303 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305726091 295432 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,3] < 1305726095 265870 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then [2,3] else [x])) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305726095 841132 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,3] < 1305726106 339094 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gnarl too < 1305726111 853703 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those two lines are identical, except that the second one (which is very similar to my OCaml) uses only lists < 1305726116 239652 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the first can handle any MonadPlus < 1305726120 412864 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: is that available online somewhere? < 1305726132 168724 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or only as a windows app? < 1305726139 841467 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: Maybe Int < 1305726140 521368 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just 2 < 1305726154 535237 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, Maybe can handle it, but only tracks one of the possible answers, because that's what Mabe does < 1305726160 460826 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: Data.Set Int < 1305726161 149825 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: type constructor or class `Data.Set' < 1305726170 180317 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> import Data.Set; let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: Data.Set Int < 1305726170 804981 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `import' < 1305726181 130023 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then ([2] `mplus` [3]) else return x)) in map id (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305726181 833853 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,3] < 1305726183 179910 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, what's the syntax in Haskell to use a particular library? < 1305726196 119873 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::m +Stuff < 1305726208 562867 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ghci syntax < 1305726212 536620 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno then < 1305726216 218860 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suck at haskells < 1305726217 419107 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in the language itself < 1305726229 57726 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> using Data.Set; let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: Data.Set Int < 1305726229 677151 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `;' < 1305726270 387065 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, apparently it is "import" < 1305726296 473850 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> {import Data.Set; let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: Data.Set Int} < 1305726297 144673 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `{' < 1305726316 895069 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> import Data.Set, let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) :: Data.Set Int < 1305726317 554025 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `import' < 1305726325 593091 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__, try http://psoup.math.wisc.edu/mcell/mjcell/mjcell.html < 1305726329 838132 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = (\x -> (if (x == 2) then (return 2 `mplus` return 3) else return x)) in (do {a <- f 2; f a}) < 1305726330 627974 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m b)) < 1305726330 710116 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `M6596097177... < 1305726347 88905 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's what I expected < 1305726354 825121 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what happened there was, I gave it a function that would run in any MonadPlus and didn't tell it which to use < 1305726368 757218 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and being Haskell, it happily calculated the function anyway and then didn't know how to display it onscreen < 1305726426 425303 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does that quite a lot < 1305726431 440077 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> id < 1305726432 186781 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) < 1305726432 268904 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `... < 1305726443 440979 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if haskell supports openGL :P < 1305726573 397552 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1305726748 764257 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there are bindings < 1305726753 430614 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is the FFI after all < 1305726800 540023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t mplus < 1305726801 236273 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadPlus m) => m a -> m a -> m a < 1305726809 245262 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, what is MonadPlus? < 1305726877 789036 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1305727024 185020 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t MonadPlus < 1305727024 720824 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: data constructor `MonadPlus' < 1305727258 994274 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t => < 1305727259 621168 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `=>' < 1305727266 529313 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t == < 1305727267 202603 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `==' < 1305727270 462185 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (==) < 1305727271 30140 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Eq a) => a -> a -> Bool < 1305727273 812900 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (=>) < 1305727274 436819 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `=>' < 1305727297 221981 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (>=) < 1305727297 357870 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, can I not PM the bot with this stuff? < 1305727297 822840 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> Bool < 1305727298 405891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1305727302 741557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1305727306 566208 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305727322 568023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, you can run this in ghci < 1305727328 134672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what would the use of that be < 1305727352 27478 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::i MonadPlus < 1305727356 350115 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hnm < 1305727358 256067 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1305727363 469395 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it doesn't do :i < 1305727369 692121 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :?src MonadPlus < 1305727369 849158 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. < 1305727375 71589 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle MonadPlus < 1305727375 178561 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad class Monad m => MonadPlus m < 1305727379 840373 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle mplus < 1305727379 996212 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad mplus :: MonadPlus m => m a -> m a -> m a < 1305727384 316007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :?src mplus < 1305727384 397834 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. :( < 1305727409 139694 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude Control.Monad> :i MonadPlus < 1305727409 258874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :class (Monad m) => MonadPlus m where < 1305727409 340774 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : mzero :: m a < 1305727409 340940 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : mplus :: m a -> m a -> m a < 1305727409 341051 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : -- Defined in Control.Monad < 1305727409 842798 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance MonadPlus [] -- Defined in Control.Monad < 1305727411 654809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance MonadPlus Maybe -- Defined in Control.Monad < 1305727414 564737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1305727763 127415 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1305727813 701373 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: MonadPlus is basically the class of monads where it's a meaningful operation for an action to produce more or less than 1 result < 1305727830 476122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1305727830 597964 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1305727847 3645 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in List, there's no problem with producing multiple results from one calculation, they can just become multiple list elements < 1305727865 197257 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in Maybe, it's fine for a computation to not produce a result as you can just put Nothing there and stop the calculation at that point < 1305727866 559073 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i got disconnected < 1305727869 710822 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in, say, IO, it would be meaningless < 1305727884 428741 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :last thing i got was cheater__, try http://psoup.math.wisc.edu/mcell/mjcell/mjcell.html < 1305727890 476353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1305727907 8658 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: don't worry, we got sidetracked and didn't talk about anything relevant in between < 1305727923 362355 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so < 1305727927 894100 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were you getting at? < 1305727938 17232 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that return is the same as constructing the monadic computation? < 1305727946 836760 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that some things have mplus defined? < 1305727954 196054 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1305727971 295102 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :composing return with a function makes it into a monad action that returns one result < 1305727984 957652 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason why monad actions are useful is that they don't necessarily have to be defined in terms of return < 1305728008 747397 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mplus gives you a way to return more than one result (likewise, mzero to return no results) < 1305728022 233517 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1305728033 927564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl, going to make food < 1305728067 476849 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how were you composing return? < 1305728090 940876 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric : and what I do, is I apply it to every element of my constraints, so I write List.concat (List.map transformConstraints constraints) < 1305728124 333180 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh trasformConstraints was using return? < 1305728306 408546 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1305728645 187392 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305729091 514287 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1305729401 500256 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: yes < 1305729412 821372 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in disguise in the OCaml program (where I wrote [a] rather than return a) < 1305729558 453776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1305730793 381215 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1305731382 219714 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable NICK :Guest75185 < 1305732259 899245 :Guest75185!~variable@unaffiliated/variable NICK :variable < 1305732907 235468 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: could we make a monadic generalizer? < 1305732924 319090 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: say we have a computation which isn't monadic. the generalizer takes that and makes it monadic. < 1305732949 701447 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: in the trivial sense, yes, you can just compose the function with return < 1305732971 725464 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, though, not if you want to do anything that actually uses the monadic structure < 1305732979 407778 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1305732980 702699 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because monads inherently have a notion of before and after < 1305732984 322239 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas functions don't < 1305733005 705778 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's fine < 1305733006 991372 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like < 1305733020 49369 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :many functions will just end up being >>= or something < 1305733035 346393 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it depends on what you mean by making a computation monadic in the first place < 1305733119 117010 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t >>= < 1305733119 745654 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `>>=' < 1305733124 447754 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (>>=) < 1305733125 108157 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b < 1305733152 217968 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!src (>>=)::([a] -> (a -> [b]) -> b) < 1305733161 614268 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, wrong prefix < 1305733164 491771 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (>>=)::([a] -> (a -> [b]) -> b) < 1305733164 573769 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. I am sorry. < 1305733170 78332 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (>>=):([a] -> (a -> [b]) -> b) < 1305733170 177347 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it. < 1305733173 604194 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you want a on both < 1305733185 6255 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t concatMap < 1305733185 692127 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b] < 1305733188 671836 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1305733197 928944 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1305733289 423807 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of my OCaml program, I just noticed that I'd written a concatMap, and that I was using lists a lot < 1305733300 422799 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thought "hey, I think I wrote a monad action by mistake" < 1305733316 243850 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that writing one of those is a bad thing, especially not in a program where that's the right thing to do < 1305733337 97839 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell, it would have been trivial to generalise to arbitrary monads at that point, which would help if I ever wanted to change to, say, sets < 1305733360 640428 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets sound like a much better idea, tbh. < 1305733371 976269 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1305733379 496597 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is, though, that your program's polymorphic over all of them < 1305733388 373889 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it more general < 1305733405 513329 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether that's irrelevant, or massively useful, depends on precisely what you're doing < 1305733421 476292 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you're writing a library, being polymorphic over monads is really good as it cuts down on the glue code your user will have to write < 1305733501 469721 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya < 1305733509 872187 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but um < 1305733715 482346 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing stuff that's too general can end up being a bad thing too, can't it < 1305733729 66419 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it gets so general people can't think of the application you had in mind in the first place ... < 1305733743 645188 :geology2!~chatzilla@71-90-32-77.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1305733752 316508 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1305733754 694443 :geology2!~chatzilla@71-90-32-77.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com NICK :geology < 1305733771 122360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1305733779 343313 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305734707 205113 :geology!~chatzilla@71-90-32-77.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027] < 1305735020 986360 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1305735032 769528 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1305736067 841189 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1305739442 594491 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1305739507 473119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello oerjan < 1305739515 287990 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'day < 1305739633 170203 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Client Quit < 1305739737 623432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye oerjan < 1305739957 219032 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd quit too if you gave me a cold welcome like that < 1305741355 659204 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name a vaguely-interesting web program that does not require https. < 1305741355 740834 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1305741359 677696 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wtf < 1305741418 42589 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: define "web program" < 1305741421 385716 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan egojoust hasn't been used in months, that code was known buggy. < 1305741421 467589 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1305741428 22291 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean a "webapp" in the SaaS sense? < 1305741430 494268 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater__: Thing you found on the web that has some JS behavior :P < 1305741435 638734 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1305741450 354601 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even www.google.com is a webapp, it's just not the most interesting one (arguably) < 1305741452 418960 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :newgrounds < 1305741470 734778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1305741471 593704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat... < 1305741499 236161 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wolfgang lambda < 1305741503 390057 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that's a good one < 1305741525 571294 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, unrelated but interesting: http://www.ludism.org/mentat/ < 1305741544 11788 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, I think it has to be something people actually use too. < 1305741564 817046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What are you asking for? :P < 1305741575 60119 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : Name a vaguely-interesting web program that does not require https. < 1305741603 916906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I know that. < 1305741612 243195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just mean that the question is impossible to answer well without knowing why you're asking :P < 1305741626 990990 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm making benchmarks. < 1305741640 718862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can actually access gmail over non-https... < 1305741646 508583 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not any more. < 1305741651 329208 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to see if I can tackle google docs, but it absolutely cannot be used without https either. < 1305741653 582929 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1305741659 471459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't you do https out of curiosity? < 1305741671 182741 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Node HTTP proxy + HTTPS = lol < 1305741688 303191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1305741690 353022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmmmmm < 1305741691 222813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmmmmmm < 1305741691 900132 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Browsers insist on the PROXY having a properly-signed blah blah blah bullshit key. < 1305741692 542863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1305741693 283592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmmm < 1305741694 222604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1305741694 962880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1305741695 468490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :m < 1305741695 808547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1305741702 136779 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means I need a key signed by e.g. Thawte for ... localhost. < 1305741716 172895 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIL Markdown is "parsed" by regex < 1305741716 254926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Isn't there that CA that everyone trusts that gives 'em out for free < 1305741719 522538 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder it's so awful < 1305741729 51840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or you could use one of the mdfive 'sploits, though I doubt anyone trusts the relevant CA any more :) < 1305741730 844231 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, but it won't give you a cert for LOCALHOST :P < 1305741737 288092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Markdown-the-syntax isn't that awful < 1305741743 993561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: and most people don't use Markdown.pl < 1305741746 880409 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in some ways < 1305741754 809871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's not /that/ awful < 1305741765 79930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's better than, e.g. DocBook :P < 1305741779 994801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You could get a cert for lolthisispointedatmymachine.codu.org :P < 1305741783 671383 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a wiki that has markdown syntax sometimes < 1305741785 450980 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spose ... < 1305741791 519742 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its internal links are something bizarre like [link]() < 1305741794 213923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Man, I'm having trouble thinking of anything >_> < 1305741796 761173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a total luddite < 1305741798 66117 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have that backwards in at least two different ways < 1305741800 466973 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's irrelevant, suffice to say it's a pain, I want non-https :P < 1305741803 32696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: That's just a hack around the fact that markdown doesn't have wikilink syntax :P < 1305741806 866510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll just be rewriting href=" < 1305741807 912492 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1305741808 77299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll just be rewriting href="" < 1305741824 644255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Well that's not Markdown's fault. < 1305741832 461340 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it isn't < 1305741847 678307 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Markdown does have a tendency to be used in stupid ways; it's not its fault but it's still aggravating < 1305741862 608261 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, dunno. < 1305741869 928446 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :single-* for italics is also an unfortunate design decision, it happens too often when the special meaning isn't desired < 1305741880 987469 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even MediaWiki runs into trouble occasionally with '' in the middle of words) < 1305742036 177983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, it's better than _ for italics < 1305742040 878459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which Markdown also has < 1305742096 199188 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, ouch < 1305742199 578808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :woiuldntit be aesoekme if oknc e yuioiu stesasdrtred tygpoijn a word yuoiu coudkktmn tkrase yuiore fingerds off thre keytjnbeeors < 1305742211 779843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuou just hasdf to slide thejm arotiuhnd < 1305742506 891759 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You'll probably be glad to know that the FUSE branch of tup was merged. < 1305742522 412766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I saw. < 1305742643 117259 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has yet to get gittup to build.
< 1305742839 115252 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can't tel whether "coudkktmn" was meant to be "could" or "couldn't" < 1305742844 90814 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can't tell < 1305742954 301868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't < 1305743394 506294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1305743401 561564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1305743578 719410 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: Explicitly named file 'built-in.o' not found in subdir 24885. < 1305743591 906492 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(subdir 24885 refers to linux/drivers/watchdog) < 1305743605 798326 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no, that does *not* have a Tupfile) < 1305743683 473243 :cheater__!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1305743772 342189 :cheater_!~cheater@p5099e3f2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1305745758 140694 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/html_node/Objects-created-both-with-libtool-and-without.html#Objects-created-both-with-libtool-and-without This has got to be the most revolting page I've read in a while. < 1305745840 544928 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: is that exploiting a bug in automake to work around a bug in libtool? < 1305745843 257667 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually pretty hilarious < 1305745892 131124 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Not really a *bug* as it is a very obscure feature. < 1305745927 475199 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: It's actually intentional that you get differing object filenames if you use per-target CFLAGS. < 1305745948 862611 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: It's just using per-target CFLAGS here that are not distinct from the normal CFLAGS. < 1305746075 764953 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it is absolutely *astounding* how much crazy shit Autotools does just to work around deficiencies in the C build system. < 1305746195 838494 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's its purpose < 1305746208 805488 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bundling up crazy shit into conveniently reusable m4 macros < 1305746224 175410 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to me it would've been easier to just replace the C build environment. :P < 1305746241 33950 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1305746298 556067 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, at the *time* there was no way they could get away with saying "Yeah, just use GNU everything", and now it'd be a bit impractical to rejigger GCC that extensively. < 1305746320 330545 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1305746371 548334 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1305746371 631287 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1305746376 892865 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages < 1305746376 974922 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor said 1h 22m 35s ago: egojoust hasn't been used in months, that code was known buggy. < 1305746394 201523 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i have no idea what quote of mine you would be referring to < 1305746407 912201 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your long-winded message to me about egojoust having bugs. < 1305746421 476173 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwait < 1305746423 59127 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lololol < 1305746427 296861 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't read the timestamps. < 1305746430 947351 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1305746438 663791 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so here's the question: Why did lambdabot tell me I had messages from three MONTHS ago. < 1305746442 303593 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just today. < 1305746443 392611 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine a world where the C compiler had some intelligence. Here is how you would build a program: "gcc main.c" < 1305746447 207597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well lambdabot was down for a while < 1305746449 196113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not THAT long a while < 1305746495 557458 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone restarted lambdabot from backup < 1305746546 477269 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, dd you aee my maessgae/ < 1305746548 603063 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blag < 1305746583 879195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: dd you aee my maessgae < 1305746638 513037 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No? < 1305746675 196698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dd you aee MY maessgae < 1305746675 441669 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, HackEgo lines that are too long get cut off without any notfication that they're cut off < 1305746678 708174 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :See: < 1305746682 778343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote birth < 1305746683 262074 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Boo hoo. < 1305746684 243137 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​160) anmaster gonna give him a birthday bj? IF ONLY I COULD FIND MY PHONE \ 259) And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?) \ 350) < 1305746687 516891 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes birth < 1305746689 65587 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6452 < 1305746690 743721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We know. < 1305746698 908951 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: i mentioned to oklofok earlier that i at least have proved that roman numeral look and say must grow approx. exponentially < 1305746741 116462 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's not surprising, but it's good to have proved it < 1305746854 593419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :" The best HTML5 is native to the operating system, so Web sites have the fewest translation layers to pass through." < 1305746855 282334 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1305746870 879969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the IE team might actually originate from a different universe < 1305746911 878800 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :html5 kernel mode ftw < 1305746923 442781 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: isn't that what Chrome OS is for? < 1305746931 362235 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck if i know < 1305746955 64378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Chrome OS is actually just Chrome on X on Gentoo < 1305746955 375241 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes algebraic < 1305746956 927864 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31004 < 1305746965 407299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tweaked to be a bit more OS-like < 1305746968 616133 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: did you see the latest Agora mishap, by the way? < 1305746972 875556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: which? < 1305746986 66793 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an errant search-and-replace made it so that every vote has to select either PRESENT, or two other options < 1305746994 58314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, right < 1305746998 439809 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're debating if it's really the case that every vote must be FOR+AGAINST < 1305747012 170406 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if that would make the game unplayable < 1305747025 523669 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Murphy thinks FOR+FOR is legal, G. thinks that plain FOR is legal because the rule now contradicts itself) < 1305747038 742897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIAN would prevent it being unplayable < 1305747240 705078 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, but the problem with AIAN is that it triggers only if there are no workable dictatorship scams < 1305747245 518894 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proving the absence of those is stricky < 1305747248 702558 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tricky < 1305747260 479645 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1305747300 480668 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: ugh, it should be tightened < 1305747400 407478 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-217-117.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1305747411 850420 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1305747504 378879 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, what subject line(s)? < 1305747510 282668 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find it :/ < 1305747581 803693 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: BUS: Re: [Assessor] something < 1305747655 426975 :TOGoS!~Stevens@h69-128-42-2.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1305747661 985170 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found it, ty < 1305747707 406478 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305747759 358328 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, did you see what Murphy said? < 1305747786 988303 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1305747798 898296 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :different people seem to disagree on exactly what happened < 1305747808 523411 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although most people think it isn't fatally broken, they disagree as to why < 1305747855 497740 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at any rate, if it is broken, Assessor can just change the rules as long as no one disagrees < 1305747858 827536 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc < 1305747878 56896 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1305747878 473783 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1305747885 711135 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean ratifying false proposal results? < 1305747908 857391 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that unambiguously works, so AIAN isn't triggered < 1305747910 849992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be illegal, of course < 1305747914 873749 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good idea < 1305747927 272843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: it will be triggered if someone objects continuously, no? < 1305747928 445566 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my idea, it's Murphy's. I think. < 1305747933 727239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then a majority can't change the rules, still < 1305747969 417503 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's not even technically illegal if you state, upfront, in the message that you're ratifying something that you think is incorrect < 1305747971 63350 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It doesn't trigger AIAN as long as "the Assessor announces some results < 1305747971 238073 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're allowed to self-ratify" still works." -- Murphy < 1305747976 842700 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that this is true even if you're allying < 1305747981 357376 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're lying < 1305748268 627403 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : > {import Data.Set; [...] <-- import only works at module top level, which lambdabot doesn't support (you can try with EgoBot) < 1305748283 448105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: eh? it's illegal to ratify a knowingly incorrect document < 1305748331 232357 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: unless you say it's illegal < 1305748346 698072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm really? okay < 1305748349 455969 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : and being Haskell, it happily calculated the function anyway and then didn't know how to display it onscreen < 1305748351 937529 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an exception for if you explain that the document may be incorrect, and the general nature of the inaccuracy < 1305748370 380072 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically it almost certainly discovered it couldn't display it before trying to calculate it < 1305748374 189978 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was added for the case when you're ratifying a currently unknown gamestate, although it helps in using ratification as proposal too < 1305748379 804631 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, did it calculate it anyway? < 1305748385 602916 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not because of laziness < 1305748403 588371 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: no, i'm saying it never started running because that error message is compile-time (type checking) < 1305748411 1272 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1305748419 220015 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot Haskell was compiled < 1305748424 365843 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as I normally use it from an interpreter < 1305748474 245704 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is very compiled, it's just type inference which makes it not show all the time < 1305748497 519087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Haskell even define REPL semantics of any kind? < 1305748507 669711 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1305748510 706159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only specified in terms of batch translation I think < 1305748514 687479 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I did know Haskell was compiled, I just forgot < 1305748515 560786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Full-world) < 1305748548 184849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: still, even interpreted haskell has to type-check first :) < 1305748574 451625 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1305748649 263711 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets bored, tries to convince people on Omegle that he is a representative of Omegle.
< 1305748719 691743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Please tell me your Omegle password." < 1305748720 909009 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: was it you who did that in #minecraft? < 1305748726 873620 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what is Omegle? < 1305748730 154107 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ghci only added full import syntax in a relatively recent version < 1305748735 766515 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, yes, it was. < 1305748893 644219 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, I wonder if haskell supports openGL :P < 1305748914 711152 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like asking if INTERCAL supports ncurses < 1305748920 98701 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that's precisely the graphics library included in the haskell platform < 1305749033 803541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: well, does it? < 1305749072 576718 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, Funge-98 does, and there's an FFI between them < 1305749251 724077 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : in Haskell, it would have been trivial to generalise to arbitrary monads at that point, which would help if I ever wanted to change to, say, sets < 1305749257 354550 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets are not monads in haskell < 1305749273 646080 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could be < 1305749286 738495 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematically, they're monads, and you can write the definitions easily enough < 1305749301 352287 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is that tricky bit about needing Ord or at least Eq to be able to check equality of elements < 1305749311 962323 :HolyBlood!jassumjas@77.29.10.132 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1305749315 253962 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which breaks the standard monad definition < 1305749340 196913 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a monad needs to work for _all_ element types < 1305749354 280649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's that blog post doing it < 1305749362 472170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an alternative (iirc Oleg's) monad class < 1305749366 474770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple classes even I think < 1305749371 951256 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, I see < 1305749382 552498 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematically, there's no issue with sets of functions < 1305749385 629169 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Eq is enough) < 1305749388 985921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.randomhacks.net/articles/2007/03/15/data-set-monad-haskell-macros < 1305749420 533568 :HolyBlood!~jassumjas@77.29.10.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305749447 192325 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks askance at HolyBlood and wonders if e is in the right channel
< 1305749489 281876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: hmm, Timwi hasn't replied yet < 1305749504 468724 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's probably waiting on a reply from Graue < 1305749504 550562 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305749510 527319 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Graue has quite possibly deleted the email < 1305749523 388023 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf google's define: prefix isn't working any more < 1305749524 422392 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/FileCode ;; /sigh < 1305749528 92885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: haha < 1305749540 61881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wfm < 1305749545 920347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it just shows it at the top < 1305749549 525887 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to click "more" for more definitions < 1305749563 784980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I wouldn't think Graue would delete it without sending a reply, but I might be wrong < 1305749572 158164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=22956&oldid=22297 < 1305749574 520046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: please to be block < 1305749577 421982 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i don't know if I get FileCode at all < 1305749604 266798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reverts
< 1305749605 957985 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um i'm seeing a completely ordinary result page as if i had written just the word i search for alone < 1305749624 622954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: localised google? < 1305749645 420353 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: blocked, autoblocked, prevented accounts being created from the same IP < 1305749645 502068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What query, I'll see if I can replicate here < 1305749651 978681 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :define:askance < 1305749683 29430 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I didn't know that the matrix of solidity thing was on the main page < 1305749689 576902 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that become a meme, anyway? < 1305749695 97480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoterica person coming here < 1305749696 442148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote solidity < 1305749697 687926 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​329) enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity < 1305749715 826900 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I missed that < 1305749725 13931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was pretty lol < 1305749728 985878 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good one, anyway < 1305749762 682810 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'll need to reconsider my Omegle strategy. < 1305749797 231076 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, saying I'm conducting a demographic survey for Omegle and asking for a/s/l is good and fine, but it doesn't really tell me if I've fooled anyone. < 1305749826 519832 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: same on english version < 1305749859 346070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what query? < 1305749869 804243 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :define:askance i said < 1305750606 300391 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches the IT Crowd.
< 1305751500 561747 :myndzi!myndzi@c-76-28-158-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305751669 963935 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, now we can \o/ without the fear of having legs added! < 1305751685 458613 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1305751698 202523 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : | < 1305751701 503316 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : / \ < 1305751703 363300 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CURSES < 1305751708 726773 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO CLOSE < 1305751746 642521 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT CLOSE AT ALL < 1305751755 24963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you forgot the penis < 1305751774 11891 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats pikhq for obviously trying to use the wrong kind of nick alignment -----###
< 1305753049 20590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t scanr tail < 1305753049 684739 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `b -> b' against inferred type `[a]' < 1305753049 766530 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the first argument of `scanr', namely `tail' < 1305753049 766692 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the expression: scanr tail < 1305753052 758349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t scanr < 1305753053 376318 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> [b] < 1305753058 766711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1305753076 601433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: [a,b,c,d] -> [[b,c,d],[c,d],[d]] how do < 1305753090 343002 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> tails [a,b,c,d] < 1305753091 17075 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[a,b,c,d],[b,c,d],[c,d],[d],[]] < 1305753110 75034 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> init . tails . tail $ [a,b,c,d] < 1305753111 389487 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[b,c,d],[c,d],[d]] < 1305753128 66751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, thanks. < 1305753141 238033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\(x:xs) -> (x,xs)) tails [a,b,c,d] < 1305753141 896281 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[[t]]' < 1305753141 977373 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type `[a] -> ... < 1305753147 503867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\(x:xs) -> (x,xs)) . tails $ [a,b,c,d] < 1305753148 873587 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(a,[b,c,d]),(b,[c,d]),(c,[d]),(d,[]),*Exception: :3:5-21: Non... < 1305753152 257225 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\(x:xs) -> (x,xs)) . init . tails $ [a,b,c,d] < 1305753153 578970 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(a,[b,c,d]),(b,[c,d]),(c,[d]),(d,[])] < 1305753166 183261 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl init . init < 1305753166 265108 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :init . init < 1305753168 872728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\(x:xs) -> (x,xs)) . init . init . tails $ [a,b,c,d] < 1305753170 283915 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(a,[b,c,d]),(b,[c,d]),(c,[d])] < 1305753173 512693 :HolyBlood!~jassumjas@77.29.10.132 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1305753173 690370 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works. < 1305753176 876217 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t inits < 1305753177 470004 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. [a] -> [[a]] < 1305753261 9220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Map.elems has no predictable result order, right? < 1305753284 668472 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(x:xs) -> (x,xs) == head &&& tail < 1305753300 571999 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not < 1305753304 848095 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That was just a test function. < 1305753307 854550 :HolyBlood!~jassumjas@77.29.10.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305753661 758052 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1305753682 583413 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1305753768 507465 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Weird_Time_Shit < 1305753774 466235 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOPS WRONG THING < 1305753997 575994 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [(x, xs) | x:xs@(_:_) <- tails [a,b,c,d]] < 1305753998 208794 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(a,[b,c,d]),(b,[c,d]),(c,[d])] < 1305754100 892487 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: for your @unpl needs ^ < 1305754158 349243 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (head &&& tail) . filter (not.null.drop 1) . tails $ [a,b,c,d] < 1305754159 640927 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(a,[b,c,d]),(b,[c,d]),(c,[d])] < 1305754325 128457 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, new in Perl 5.14 is the ability to name a package Foo::::Bar < 1305754346 734006 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you're going to have to load it by hand unless your filesystem supports directories with zero-length names < 1305754348 951415 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the patch: < 1305754361 783757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- if (strcmp(name, "Foo::::Bar")) < 1305754397 832647 :TOGoS!~Stevens@h69-128-42-2.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :was 'if (strcmp(name, "Foo::::Bar"))' srsly in the source? < 1305754403 988188 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOGoS: no, elliott is joking < 1305754406 235935 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a good joek < 1305754408 442778 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*joke < 1305754413 522443 :TOGoS!~Stevens@h69-128-42-2.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh thank gourd < 1305754442 575380 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think even Vorpal would have realised that was a joke... < 1305754448 689602 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's TOGoS < 1305754450 900436 :TOGoS!~Stevens@h69-128-42-2.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a hunch but, knowing Perl... < 1305754455 37331 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's a gourd < 1305754459 157630 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, I don't get it < 1305754459 621641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a plant < 1305754467 990998 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: uncanny < 1305754487 624805 :TOGoS!~Stevens@h69-128-42-2.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gourd is what you thank when you find out that some source code is not as ridiculous as it could be. < 1305754505 844831 :TOGoS!~Stevens@h69-128-42-2.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you shake it for good luck < 1305754508 188805 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case you hadn't guessed, I'm reading the Perl 5.14 changelog < 1305754512 26450 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of it looks useful, like s///r < 1305755091 248201 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm amused at Perl having versioned pragmas < 1305755117 739499 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the pragmas are implemented as modules, and modules have version numbers, but it's crazy seeing things like "The overload pragma has been upgraded from 1.10 to 1.13.") < 1305755129 644782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1305755316 580719 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pluggable pragmata's a little bizarre as language features go < 1305755568 330082 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pragmatic plugs < 1305755570 393333 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1305756094 197713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads the beautiful funge 9eight subset log
< 1305756115 991085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n % 2) by outputting to a file and inputting it again, so that you can do xor, so that you can write an adder < 1305756172 461479 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: people were trying to find a minimal Funge-98-complete subset, without abusing fingerprints? < 1305756233 564679 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: no, the topic came up of Funge-98 minus ninety-three < 1305756235 448527 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you do abuse fingerprints, you could just make a feral fingerprint named the null string, that did s/(/0/ on the program and then interpreted it as a program in the language Unary) < 1305756238 737119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. all ninetythree instructions are gone < 1305756238 815972 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah < 1305756248 520609 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are interesting < 1305756256 648824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we couldn't figure out how to get the lowest bit of a number to write an adder with xor < 1305756264 527162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then deewiant realised that the lower bit of its flag determines binary or text mode < 1305756266 973908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1305756324 829216 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you get the higher bits? < 1305756331 938413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1305756612 972993 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305756615 264806 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1305756775 809050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1305757209 446043 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how much time glibc spends to do literally nothing
< 1305757215 168475 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in its build) < 1305757258 108091 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Approximately "Can't tell because it's t3h borken" < 1305757315 170377 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :make[2]: *** No rule to make target `../manual/errno.texi', needed by `../sysdeps/gnu/errlist.c'. Stop. < 1305757360 243618 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more Perl amusement: they went and changed the type that an API function returns < 1305757390 924429 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :defending it partly by saying it was marked as "may change", which is fine, but also that they did a Google code search and found that nobody else was actually using it < 1305757592 480163 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also love reading the lists of bugfixes, just because the bugs were so bizarre < 1305757636 547632 :ais523_!93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.192.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. sub { $_[0] = *foo }->($hash{key}); in 5.12 assigns the /string/ "*main::foo" to $_[0] < 1305757749 832200 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/he4du/til_you_cant_drink_coke_in_space_it_makes_you/c1ur38k < 1305757756 624823 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no words... < 1305758122 142817 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, 5:30 for a build of glibc 2.13 from a clean dir... < 1305758207 968392 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1:16 for a no-op build. < 1305758231 248540 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is fucking ridiculous. < 1305758278 835689 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :minutes? < 1305758416 285386 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1305758441 110432 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1305758467 679208 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, still tuppin'? < 1305758799 61970 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcdexplained.com/ < 1305758803 727464 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, it stopped. < 1305758806 104206 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ages ago, too. < 1305758833 401129 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Today is the day the Author finally discovered a metaphor that perfectly combines his two greatest passions in life: technology and unidirectional relationships wherein a female is able to completely dominate him emotionally." < 1305758842 759426 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So true. Godspeed, good analysts. < 1305758877 980460 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The more astute Reader will realize the true meaning of today’s comic: the Author is using his vast influence to encourage smart engineers around the world to create computer software that will talk nicely to him." < 1305759116 384751 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305759260 73009 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sorry Randall, I cannot do that. < 1305759502 716295 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "The Author hates women." < 1305759761 707547 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Author saw the film Inception and it confused him. He decided to make a comic strip about himself and a squirrel as most visual learners tend to do when frustrated." < 1305759784 727449 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1305760027 328787 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-248-109.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Definitely still tupping. < 1305760040 350473 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tuppin' < 1305760432 715610 :HolyBlood!~jassumjas@77.29.10.132 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1305760503 303440 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The newscaster is doing exactly that which he is being criticized for - letting people without college physics degrees voice their opinions." < 1305760675 598117 :cheater79!~cheater23@ip-80-226-16-83.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305760678 792054 :HolyBlood!jassumjas@77.29.9.93 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305760684 3900 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I particularly like the ubiquitous jabs at Munroe's sexual politics. < 1305760711 552679 :cheater79!~cheater23@ip-80-226-16-83.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1305761143 681840 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1305761286 977705 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1305761563 698775 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1305761589 67416 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make a programming language WORSE than Malbolge! < 1305761712 213653 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whaddya' think? < 1305762065 260899 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1305762075 693547 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not make a class of arbitrarily more difficult languages < 1305762087 719403 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you'll have your work cut out for you < 1305762181 251668 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1305762186 138161 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A class? < 1305762235 590247 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like how there are increasingly more inaccessible ordinals and notations for increasingly larger numbers like conway arrow notation and so on < 1305762247 852342 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a permutation you can do to a language to make it harder? < 1305762277 903920 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1305762286 56168 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge 2.0... < 1305762303 191686 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how do I make it more difficult? < 1305762307 646460 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm picturing a language mutator that randomly applies the side-effect of a different operation to every operation you can do < 1305762311 994312 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't do anything without mucking up something else < 1305762318 921527 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you try to fix that it messes up something else and so on < 1305762323 369330 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like reverse engineering cryptography < 1305762329 612890 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe more encryption? < 1305762359 885197 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Break this SHA-256 hash to continue programming? < 1305762375 109891 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1305762381 520743 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got it! < 1305762425 821050 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already have a hash-breaking esolang < 1305762435 528022 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shafuck or something < 1305762470 104457 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle m (a -> b) -> a -> m b < 1305762470 342412 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b < 1305762470 424381 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b < 1305762470 424584 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b < 1305762474 776130 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitcoinfuck < 1305762490 47679 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :dang there are some weird ass operators in haskel < 1305762503 511721 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not the one i want < 1305762645 868174 :alegend45!~chatzilla@68-116-252-37.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how exactly does Malbolge work? The wiki isn't very good at explaining it. < 1305762663 780058 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a ternary language with lots of arbitrary ternary bit-wise operators that aren't awfully useful < 1305762665 684074 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1305762689 441885 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't the program counter move around randomly? < 1305762733 591310 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :acually there are just two operators iirc < 1305762879 771424 :jassumjas!~jassumjas@77.29.9.93 JOIN :#esoteric < 1305762901 716855 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't move around randomly < 1305762921 872234 :HolyBlood!jassumjas@77.29.9.93 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1305762956 616753 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :however the previously executed instruction is encrypted after each step < 1305762975 707880 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1305762990 643439 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :polymorphic code }:) < 1305762993 118400 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for jumps, for which the encryption hits the instruction before the target instead < 1305763035 974769 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this exception for jumps supposedly makes things much easier to program) < 1305763128 965319 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric