00:00:37 <elliott_> google's front page was weird in 2006
00:00:47 * elliott_ has a copy of it in this directory for no obvious reason...
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00:03:44 <oerjan> heh dagbladet.no has a title translating as "Judgement day may still be close - as now "Duke Nukem Forever" is finished."
00:04:29 <elliott_> i'm not going to find thesef iles am I :(
00:04:40 <elliott_> oerjan: can you put a good word in with the synchronicity gods for me
00:04:57 <elliott_> <oerjan> you think they listen to ME?
00:05:15 <oerjan> Dear Synchronicity Gods; Please give Elliott Hird a clue. Amen.
00:05:49 <oerjan> well no they don't listen to me, that's true. You should be safe.
00:10:05 <oerjan> i note my landlady chose the best possible week to take a vacation in mallorca...
00:10:35 <oerjan> might not see her again in a while.
00:11:09 <oerjan> um that's how it's spelled, isn't it
00:12:35 <elliott_> wp article title agrees with me
00:12:39 <elliott_> Majorca (or Mallorca) (Catalan: Mallorca, IPA: [məˈʎɔrkə] or [məˈʎɔrcə]; Spanish: Mallorca, IPA: [maˈʎorka])
00:12:56 <elliott_> has she gone to Deutschland too? :D
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00:15:46 <elliott_> maybe i should just generate a list of every single file on the drive to find it
00:17:32 <oerjan> the majorca spelling is not used in norwegian, neither is majorka which would be the complete retranscription (and which seems to be used in polish)
00:18:39 <oerjan> it probably does not have an old enough connection to norway to get a norwegianized name
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00:20:20 <elliott_> everyone say hi to my old old lisp bot
00:20:45 <lithpbot> (err) need at least 2 args, got 0
00:20:46 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> GHC.Bool.Bool)
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00:22:30 <elliott_> I wonder what on earth it freed?
00:22:32 <lithpbot> (py err) AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'val'
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00:22:54 <lithpbot> (err) need at least 2 args, got 0
00:23:33 <elliott_> > (define hog (lambda (n) (if (> n 9999) () (cons 'x (hog (+ n 1))))))
00:23:33 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
00:23:38 <lithpbot> (py err) AttributeError: 'bool' object has no attribute 'val'
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00:26:26 <elliott_> ｔｈｉｓ ｗｏｕｌｄ ａｎｎｏｙ Ｖｏｒｐａｌ ｔｏ ｎｏ ｅｎｄ ｉｆ ｈｅ ｃｏｕｌｄ ｓｅｅ ｉｔ
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00:35:44 <elliott_> oerjan: tunes are like flowers
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00:36:22 <elliott_> ｆｌｏｗｅｒｓ ｉｎ ｓｕｍｍｅｒ ａｒｅ ｌｉｋｅ ｉｄｉｏｔｓ ｉｎ ｓｐｒｉｎｇ ＴＨＩＳ ＩＳ ＦＡＣＴＵＡＬ
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01:01:39 <elliott_> [5] Please act expeditiously to remove the file-downloads found at the following URLs:
01:01:39 <elliott_> http://www.fileserve.com/file/cWAKEDR
01:06:11 <elliott_> something to do with ps3 homebrew it seems
01:06:17 <elliott_> based on the rest of the links in https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2011-01-27-sony.markdown
01:06:24 <elliott_> which are less humorous as they actually link to github
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01:58:07 <elliott_> the files are gone forever rip
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02:15:50 <pikhq> Ｗｈａｔ ｉｓ ｗｉｔｈ ｔｈｅ ｆｕｌｌ−ｗｉｄｔｈ Ｌａｔｉｎ， ａｎｙｗａｙｓ？
02:28:24 <elliott_> Hey, Shift-JIS art would break without it. :p
02:32:10 <elliott_> "A 4.7 GB DVD-R full of one-time-pad data, if shredded into particles 1 mm² in size, leaves over 100 kibibits of (admittedly hard to recover, but not impossibly so) data on each particle."
02:32:28 <elliott_> has anyone ever actually recovered from those particles
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03:08:31 <pikhq> elliott_: Shift-JIS art breaks without the right *fonts*...
03:11:08 <pikhq> (many of the characters used in Shift-JIS art are actually proportional, and so the art assumes the metrics of MS PGothic)
03:13:24 <pikhq> (IPAMonaPGothic also works)
03:14:13 <pikhq> (yes, the transcription is retarded; in Japanese, it's IPA モナーPゴシック)
03:19:10 <elliott_> well it's just the metrics right
03:19:33 <elliott_> ipamonapgothic is the free one right
03:21:01 <pikhq> The whole effort wouldn't be even slightly necessary if they used a monospace font.
03:21:20 <pikhq> But *no*, they had to use a freaking proportional font.
03:21:22 <elliott_> can you find my old php code from oh-six pikhq i tried to today but i couldnt
03:21:44 <pikhq> When monospace actually is a decent approximation for Japanese text.
03:22:14 <pikhq> (doing proper Japanese typesetting, however, is about on par with English typesetting in difficulty of getting right)
03:23:43 <pikhq> elliott_: Sorry, but I have never even *seen* your old PHP code to my recollection.
03:23:58 <elliott_> you should still find it though
03:24:11 <pikhq> I'm not about to spelunk for something I would only wince at.
03:24:34 <elliott_> i just want to stare at it ;_;
03:24:40 <elliott_> but i found every php file on my old drive
03:24:41 <pikhq> Actually, "PHP code" is what makes it worthy of insulting.
03:24:58 <elliott_> i think i deleted them but i don't know why i'd do something so horrible
03:25:01 <elliott_> pikhq: oh no it was especially bad php code
03:25:09 <elliott_> i did not really understand sql or anything iehter
03:25:17 <pikhq> Oh, so it was average PHP code.
03:25:48 <elliott_> i had started coding two years earlier, also in php
03:25:55 <elliott_> my very first php script used an Access database
03:26:04 <pikhq> Holy *fuck* you were young when you got in here. Just saying. :P
03:26:19 <elliott_> i was like twelve when i started coming here?
03:26:26 <elliott_> ok maybe eleven for a short while. but i didn't really talk much then ;D
03:26:29 <pikhq> Something like that.
03:26:35 <elliott_> i'd got over php, is the point
03:26:40 <elliott_> my debilitating illness had ended
03:26:42 <pikhq> ... Not that I should criticise too much.
03:26:51 <pikhq> I've been IRC'ing since like 9 or 10.
03:27:06 <elliott_> oh me too i just didn't come here until i was a bit less of an idiot
03:27:46 <pikhq> Yeah, I would've been, what, 16?
03:28:06 <elliott_> i used to think you were like AT LEAST twenty one in two thousand and seven
03:28:24 <pikhq> I've had people assuming that for over a decade now.
03:28:41 <elliott_> someone assumed i was like twenty in two thousand and six because i knew a lot about coding
03:28:48 <elliott_> i realise that person was an idiot
03:28:57 <pikhq> For quite a bit less time, I've given that impression IRL.
03:29:29 <elliott_> my darkest fear is that i will never not look twelve. ok not really but this is just ridiculous.
03:29:32 <coppro> elliott_: I was contacted by a Microsoft recruiter around the age of 15
03:29:45 <pikhq> coppro: "Like to call back in 3 years?"
03:29:46 <elliott_> coppro: you should have lead them on
03:29:55 <elliott_> coppro: but let's be honest here, microsoft recruiters contact everybody
03:30:13 <elliott_> they contacted esr without even reading a single word he wrote, or they'd realise he's a raging shithead and not bother
03:30:26 <pikhq> They contacted *esr*?
03:30:36 <elliott_> "If you had bothered to do five seconds of background checking, you
03:30:36 <elliott_> might have discovered that I am the guy who responded to Craig
03:30:36 <elliott_> Mundie's "Who are you?" with "I'm your worst nightmare", and that I've
03:30:36 <elliott_> in fact been something pretty close to your company's worst nightmare
03:30:41 <elliott_> -- esr, neopagan and self-proclaimed sex god
03:30:58 <elliott_> its like they found the ego button in his soul and pressed it until he exploded
03:31:04 <coppro> pikhq: if I was at all interested, maybe
03:31:17 <elliott_> a job at ms would probably be nice, if you could sleep at night
03:31:29 <pikhq> It'd depend on what I was doing at MS, quite honestly.
03:31:44 <elliott_> i think a job working on windows might actually be interesting
03:31:52 <elliott_> not /fun/ necessarily but... interesting
03:32:04 <elliott_> i'd probably just sit there all day and read the code for fun...
03:32:17 <pikhq> elliott_: Even *there*, it'd depend.
03:32:23 <elliott_> i'd probably have huge trouble resisting the urge to copy it all to a usb stick
03:32:29 <pikhq> Working on the kernel could legitimately be interesting, TBH.
03:32:47 <elliott_> pikhq: man can you imagine their development cycle though
03:32:53 <elliott_> i wonder how long it takes to recompile windows after a change
03:32:55 <pikhq> Working on APIs would make me want to stab a bunch of developers.
03:33:01 <elliott_> booting a version of windows you modified would feel really weird
03:33:06 <elliott_> it doesn't feel like the kind of os you could do that to
03:33:14 <pikhq> For the most part *not* developers in Microsoft, actually.
03:33:27 <elliott_> pikhq: if theres one thing the Old New Thing teaches me its that theres no way the kernel team doesnt have to deal with that too
03:34:00 <elliott_> and you'd be contributing to windows
03:34:21 <pikhq> The thing is, from what I know of it, the kernel for Windows is *actually well-designed*.
03:34:36 <elliott_> well do you mean nt or win subsystem
03:34:45 <pikhq> I mean NT. The *actual kernel*.
03:34:53 <elliott_> well the windows subsystem is a kernel too, to be honest
03:35:27 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, it is technically part of the kernel.
03:35:43 <pikhq> But it's more like an overcomplicated system call compatibility layer.
03:36:11 <pikhq> No, no, I mean "like FreeBSD's Linux support"
03:36:20 <elliott_> yeah but that's what a kernel is
03:36:25 <elliott_> freebsd's is small because they're quite close
03:36:47 <pikhq> It's a mapping between a foreign system call layer and a native one?
03:36:52 <pikhq> You have a very strange notion of kernel.
03:37:10 <elliott_> yep, except sometimes the native one involves some memory-mapped jiggery rather than an int/sysenter/etc. call
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04:32:55 <elliott_> wow, raymond chen actually uses ie
04:33:17 <pikhq> Less surprising than it would have been a few years ago.
04:33:41 <pikhq> IE at least seems to be a decent, tolerable browser now.
04:33:51 <elliott_> yeah but does anyone actually switch /to/ IE?
04:33:58 <elliott_> i'm worrying that he's never not used IE in his life now ;_;
04:34:07 <pikhq> Not in over a decade.
04:34:49 <elliott_> hehe "ive stopped using the netscapes it doesnt work with msn so im using the ies now"
04:34:54 <pikhq> Remember, Netscape used to suck.
04:34:57 <elliott_> am i roleplaying the 90s properly
04:35:30 <pikhq> No, really, Netscape was *worse* than IE for a while.
04:36:40 <elliott_> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/05/18/10165605.aspx#10165884
04:36:40 <elliott_> [In practice, the only time anybody set a nonstandard timeout was to set an extra annoying timeout. -Raymond]
04:36:48 <elliott_> windows starts ignoring parameters because they're only used to annoy people
04:37:14 <pikhq> "We changed our API behavior because, y'know what, *you guys suck*."
04:37:48 <elliott_> next time on the old new thing "in windows 8 requests to create a borderless window result in your application being surrounded by not one but TWO normal window decorations and an angry letter being mailed to your parents"
04:38:04 <elliott_> "and if it can PROVE that you're about to draw your own border, it kills the programmer immediately"
04:38:26 <pikhq> Remember, some programs *in Windows* do that.
04:38:33 <pikhq> (well, at a minimum, WMP does.)
04:38:52 <elliott_> yes but as we've established everyone at ms hates everyone in a different team
04:39:01 <elliott_> the gui/office rivalry is potent
04:39:28 <pikhq> The hatred is often justified.
04:39:49 <elliott_> i bet like half the kernel is working around bugs in lotus and office
04:40:39 <pikhq> A good 7/8ths of the Windows team is probably working around application bugs.
04:40:51 <pikhq> Because they seem to absolutely fellate backwards compatibility.
04:41:40 <elliott_> can you imagine the complaints theyd get if they broke old apps
04:42:26 <elliott_> so changing topic entirely, after reading that terrible new coding horror post im actually surprised that chrome doesnt update without restarting
04:42:37 <elliott_> it occurs to me that patching a running binary is not yet a solved problem
04:42:45 <elliott_> which is interesting because it should be!
04:43:28 <pikhq> "Patching" a running binary is a solved problem. You "merely" serialise your state and restart! :P
04:43:42 <elliott_> yeah but chrome updates every second
04:44:05 <elliott_> considering it updates silently i am honestly surprised that it does not start running the new version instantly
04:44:33 <elliott_> and i'm wondering if it's actually possible to do in-place updating with an updated() function that is called after the ptach
04:44:41 <elliott_> I think it might be since Chrome uses that fancy update format that uses symbolic addresses
04:44:49 <elliott_> so it's not like code is just going to jump around the place and be impossible
04:45:15 <Patashu> I think it's not done because it would require the browser to pause
04:45:29 <elliott_> Patashu: would it? I don't see what would take so long
04:45:42 <elliott_> and you could always wait until the user does nothing for a few seconds :-)
04:45:43 <Patashu> even 1 second would annoy people with how frequently it updates
04:46:01 <elliott_> i think there are harder problems than that :P
04:46:10 <elliott_> like, I don't know how thorough their symbolic thing is
04:46:20 <elliott_> could you apply the patch to the running memory image without addresses invalidating?
04:46:48 <elliott_> if so, then I think it could be as simple as doing that, then passing control over to an oops_you_just_updated() function, which I guess would have to handle the task of migrating data structures and updating the UI...
04:46:56 <elliott_> that's still quite manual i guess but it would be cool
04:48:11 <Patashu> so every pointer pointing into code would need to be updated?
04:48:26 <elliott_> Patashu: i don't think so, that's why they invented their new patch format isn't it?
04:48:33 <Patashu> well, the code still changes size
04:48:37 <elliott_> i guess it fixes up the pointers itself
04:48:41 <Patashu> their patching function is just a really compressed diff
04:48:43 <elliott_> they already do that patching already
04:48:47 <Patashu> that uses knowledge of the original function pointers
04:48:52 <elliott_> they already do that patching already, to the binary
04:48:58 <elliott_> so they can do it to the in-memory image too
04:49:09 <elliott_> they could copy the memory image aside and do it to that so it could be swapped quicker
04:49:17 <Patashu> yeah, but what if a function suddenly changes its internal state?
04:49:21 <Patashu> or is removed while it's being run?
04:49:32 <elliott_> Patashu: well it'd have to restore the browser to the start of the event loop or whatever
04:49:40 <elliott_> i.e. if any functions are busy running it'd have to postpone it until it's at a predictable state
04:49:49 <elliott_> my worry is that e.g. they insert a field in the middle of a class
04:49:52 <elliott_> now all instances of that class need migrating
04:49:56 <elliott_> it's like sql migration but worse :)
04:50:12 <Patashu> but it sounds like black magic stuff
04:50:30 <elliott_> i note that it's easy if you work at a higher level than machine code.
04:52:12 <Patashu> let's write a browser in LUA
04:52:16 <Patashu> then on the fly updating is -really- easy!
04:52:24 <elliott_> (says the guy not capitalising)
04:52:53 <elliott_> i dont see how lua would make it any easier than any interpreted language
04:53:14 <elliott_> i mean you'll still have a bunch of values floating around without newly-added fields
04:53:27 <elliott_> so your whole application sort of has to deal with things randomly being uninitialised for seeminlgy no reason
04:53:32 <elliott_> which is a rather awkward way to code
04:53:41 <Patashu> yeah, i guess for anything carrying state it would still be tough
04:53:52 <Patashu> anything that's functional you can plug and play but you can already pretty much do that
04:53:58 <elliott_> but i'm thinking that with anything that has a semantic description of object types e.g. CLOS
04:54:13 <elliott_> (not things like python or ruby since they have no actual specification mechanism for types, its all in the initialisers)
04:54:18 <elliott_> you could have it actually migrate every object on-the-fly
04:54:28 <elliott_> and call added hooks in the program to assign default values
04:54:40 <elliott_> you sort of need a diff of the data structures themselves
04:58:10 <elliott_> Patashu: i half-suspect that chrome startup is short enough that they could just load the new binary into memory, save the current rendering state and position of all tabs and windows, and just quickly run the new one and kill the old one without anyone noticing
04:58:19 <elliott_> ok you'd have to keep the old windows drawn while it starts but
04:58:26 <elliott_> i guess plugins make that harder though
04:58:39 <Patashu> what about flash plugin state?
04:58:58 <Patashu> I've never seen a browser preserve where my youtube video playthrough is up to across killing tabs, rebooting, etc
04:59:03 <Patashu> if it's possible surely it'd have been done by now
04:59:36 <elliott_> but apart from that it sounds doable because i mean chrome usually re-renders everything when it starts
04:59:45 <elliott_> if you can reduce the migration problem to translating the rendering structures to the new format if it's changed
04:59:49 <elliott_> then it sounds a lot more tenable
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06:48:11 <Patashu> You don't have to type words into wordpad when you're recording your screen for youtube anymore. We have annotations now
06:50:34 <pikhq> Better still. We have audio.
06:51:17 <Patashu> Some things text conveys better but yeah
06:58:13 <Patashu> Multiple DSL subscriber lines are multiplexed into a single, high-capacity link using a DSL access multiplexer (DSLAM) at the provider location.
06:58:16 <Patashu> I need to start a religion called DSLAM
06:58:20 <Patashu> or maybe it's a wrestling move
06:58:25 <Patashu> all I know is it sounds awesome
07:00:59 <pikhq> Aaah, DSL. The networking technology that only sees use because possible competitors don't feel like taking competition seriously.
07:01:18 <pikhq> I repeat: the possible capacity of a DOCSIS network is 6 *gigabits* per second.
07:03:33 <pikhq> Sorry, 6.77504 gigabits per second.
07:04:09 <pikhq> This is presuming that all 158 channels on the North American cable TV frequency plan are allocated to DOCSIS.
07:05:21 <pikhq> If they decided to use better modulation, they could get just shy of *tripling* that.
07:06:09 <pikhq> But 6.77504 gigabits per second is the bandwidth they could start offering right this instant if they felt like it.
07:06:44 <pikhq> (modulo not-last-mile bandwidth availability, of course)
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07:10:24 <pikhq> For comparison, the theoretic maximum of VDSL2 is 0.250 gigabits per second.
07:11:03 <pikhq> And that's if you hook up right at the centrol office.
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07:41:02 <fizzie> VDSL2 in Finland is mostly used in the scenario where there's fiber to the basement telephone switchboxery and vsdl2 from there to apartments, to avoid rewiring.
07:41:24 <fizzie> In that case you do get the relatively reasonable rates.
07:44:08 <fizzie> The cable networks are I guess DOCSIS3-compatible, but they only sell up to 200M/10M speeds to consumers.
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08:07:05 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
08:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's registered to one Alan Dipert, which I know is not graue's name.
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10:00:58 <Sgeo> elliott: Homestuck update
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10:07:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Homestuck update
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10:10:01 <cheater__> Sgeo, you should be telling me too :p
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11:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> So in other news my chemistry exam has hit a new low in objective wrongness.
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11:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It asked the kind of bonding present in a substance that melted at over 3000°C and oxidised to a gas at room temperature.
11:27:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I put metallic, since there is a metal which fits that exact description.
11:28:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The correct answer was apparently some kind of covalent bonding, and since it was a multiple choice there was only one correct option.
11:30:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Not that it bothers me too much, since I got 92% anyway, but it irks me.
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12:33:23 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any good and small test case for debugging unlambda interpreter?
12:52:08 <lifthrasiir> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, i ended up with comparing the trace of computation to other (working) one
12:54:09 <lifthrasiir> wait, it seems that i finally get it correct...
12:55:00 <lifthrasiir> ugh, i found the bug: ?x didn't really check if the current character is x...
12:57:12 <ais523> what did it do instead?
12:58:06 <lifthrasiir> ais523: `?xX actually returned `Xi, no matter what the current character is, except on the EOF
12:58:31 <lifthrasiir> yeah, turns out that i'm not quite fluent in ocaml.
12:59:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: can you please not put copyright violations on the wiki?
12:59:36 <ais523> that image isn't even freely licensed, let alone public domain
13:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes OK it was not a terribly good idea in hindsight but dammit.
13:00:55 <Patashu> http://i.imgur.com/25g7Z.jpg
13:01:12 <ais523> I also think it was a questionable idea in the first place, but the copyvio is more relevant
13:01:57 <Patashu> http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/24/paul-gosar-millionaire/
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13:37:24 <ais523> does Firefox have a "search in all tabs in this window" feature?
13:38:10 <ais523> it'd be useful right now, for me
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14:18:17 <Vorpal> gah. Why did I suddenly decide to read the back of the milk packaging. Arla (the largest dairy in Sweden) always put some text about various things on the back, changing it every week or so. This time they went for something so overloaded with puns it was quite painful to read.
14:18:49 <Vorpal> of course, it wouldn't translate at all to English.
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14:34:31 <fizzie> Arla's ad slogan in Finland several years ago (1999) used to be "Kohta meissä kaikissa asuu pieni lehmä"; in English, "soon in every one of us there will live a small cow".
14:35:37 <fizzie> It was selected as the slogan of the year by some agency that bothers to select a slogan of the year.
14:40:32 <ais523> Vorpal: you could translate it both ways round; we still wouldn't get the joke but we could see how awkward it sounded
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15:07:37 <Vorpal> ais523, well "cow" in Swedish is "ko". "organic food" is "ekologisk mat". Now they invented a story about a professor "E.Ko" for teaching children about what organic food means. And from that point on the pun storm went on.
15:08:30 <ais523> that pun almost translates into English as "ecowlogical", although it wouldn't quite have the same meaning
15:08:42 <Vorpal> ais523, there was some very bad pun about this invented "professor" having won the "Kobel price" and so on too
15:09:45 <Vorpal> ais523, oh and en:buddy = sv:kompis. I forgot what pun they made on that, but they managed one.
15:10:16 <Vorpal> well google says that is how it translates. it suggests "chum" as an alternative. Possibly closer
15:10:52 <ais523> informal word for "friend"?
15:16:53 <Vorpal> ais523, oh and sv:naturligvis ~ en:"of course". But svn:"naturligt vis" ~ en:"natural way". They used that one too. Except they mangled it so it made less sense, in that context the form "naturligtvist" would have been used, so they ended up with "naturligt vist" which could possibly mean something like "naturally wise", except that makes less sense since the form "vist" would never be used about a noun
15:16:54 <Vorpal> for a person. (Words about persons are invariably reale, not neuturm, no clue what those classes are called in English, something related to grammatical "gender" I think (except it isn't like male/female at all in modern Swedish)
15:17:05 <Vorpal> so in effect it ended up utterly awkward
15:18:47 <Vorpal> wait, could be utrum. Hm Swedish wikipedia isn't terribly clear on which our grammatical genders are...
15:19:50 <Vorpal> and uh, I can't actually see what the difference between reale and utrum is based on the examples on wikipedia... They seem the same?
15:23:01 <Vorpal> English wikipedia says "Swedish nouns and adjectives are declined in genders as well as number. Nouns belong to one of two genders—common for the en form or neuter for the ett form[31]—which also determine the declension of adjectives.".
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15:43:26 <Vorpal> huh, mplayer on ubuntu fails to play this movie. I'm sure mplayer on arch managed
15:45:25 <olsner> Vorpal: stare at the wall until you go mad
15:45:26 <Vorpal> ais523, any suggestion?
15:45:47 <Vorpal> olsner, as mentioned above
15:46:16 <Vorpal> olsner, btw, it was on the ecological whole milk I saw this. Not sure if it is the same across the entire product range
15:49:36 <Vorpal> oh damn, it seems I need to possibly recompile ffmpeg with support for it
15:50:46 <olsner> Vorpal: I have no idea what you're talking about, maybe you're already done staring and have gone mad
15:51:05 <Vorpal> olsner, which discussion
15:51:15 <Vorpal> olsner, the Arla one or the codec one
15:51:17 <olsner> which discussion indeed
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17:19:58 <elliott> ais523: lol at ph's upload/edit + your revert
17:20:18 <ais523> elliott: it was a copyvio!
17:20:29 <elliott> I'm SURE that's why you removed it >:D
17:23:39 <ais523> elliott: it was also both silly and offtopic
17:23:46 <ais523> as well as described incorrectly
17:23:50 <ais523> but a copyvio is an even better reason to delete
17:24:00 <elliott> it was the image from the guardian article, right?
17:24:15 <elliott> (that's just a guess based on context, I didn't see it)
17:24:29 <elliott> ais523: you know, you have no proof that PH isn't the photographer of that
17:24:33 <ais523> I'm not sure it accomplished much besides making the photographer look stupid, but it's their fault
17:24:37 <ais523> elliott: PH is a woman?
17:24:49 <elliott> ais523: It's not out of the question.
17:24:52 <ais523> also, the Guardian would own the copyright, or the photo agency, not the photographer
17:25:00 <elliott> Well he could be the boss of the photo agency.
17:25:13 <elliott> Maybe he IS the photography agency ITSELF.
17:25:29 <elliott> I AM JUST SAYING THAT YOU ARE BEING TOO HASTY
17:25:38 <ais523> elliott: these theories aren't convincing me
17:25:46 <ais523> and even suspected copyvios should be deleted until there's proof they aren't
17:25:53 <elliott> That's what they said about Columbus, too
17:26:29 <elliott> Hmm, XMMS2 clients seem rather bitrotten
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17:43:35 <zzo38> Maybe post a link to the file on here in case.
17:51:02 <zzo38> I think there is a bug in GNU dc, when there is unimplemented command the error message is sent to stdout instead of stderr, it seems?
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18:17:19 <lifthrasiir> http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/esotope/ trying to revive a project.
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18:35:56 <elliott> "Nice to see you use present tense when speaking about 16-bit applications. I spend 30-50% of my time maintaining an old C++ 16-bit application, so I still live with all the joys of 64K limits :-)"
18:36:01 <elliott> people wrote sixteen-bit C++ programs?
18:36:29 <elliott> how did they even fit in to RAM :P
18:36:50 <ais523> elliott: back then, C++ didn't look like modern C++ at all
18:36:51 <pikhq> It was first called "C++" in *1983*.
18:37:07 <ais523> it was more like C with a vague attempt to do object-orientation badly
18:37:13 <elliott> lifthrasiir: well iostreams and the like hardly applied to windows anyway
18:37:15 <pikhq> C++ had rather a large amount of changes up to its ISO-isation.
18:37:18 <elliott> ais523: I guess so, it's still just surprising
18:37:26 <ais523> and the string class (not std::string back then) and iostreams were about the most OO it got in the standard libraries
18:37:32 <elliott> Considering that people wrote assembly by hand and weren't considered insanely hardcore, at the same time
18:37:36 <ais523> old-fashioned C++ is nothing like modern C++
18:38:02 <pikhq> The STL itself only really came about in the 90s.
18:38:27 <pikhq> Templates were, like, 1990.
18:38:38 <olsner> at a conference at work a while ago there was a talk by one of the oldies about how memory management used to work in our C++ code back in the 16-bit days
18:39:15 <pikhq> It was *recognisable* but distinctly different starting with, oh, the mid-80s.
18:39:58 <pikhq> And you're first going to get something that would compile in, say, g++ starting in 1998.
18:40:23 <pikhq> (presuming STL use)
18:40:29 <pikhq> (the names of the header files changed in the ISO committee)
18:40:53 <pikhq> Yeah, they removed .h from all the headers.
18:41:21 <pikhq> You can push it back a bit further, perhaps to 1989, if you're talking about code that only used ISO C headers. If you're lucky.
18:41:44 <elliott> I can't stop myself from liking DOS :(
18:41:44 <pikhq> (before then, all bets are off. This was the nasty land of *K&R C*.)
18:41:53 <pikhq> elliott: Don't feel bad.
18:42:03 <pikhq> elliott: DOS was not a bad design for the time.
18:42:13 <pikhq> Computers have just gotten *so much better*, and DOS has not.
18:42:27 <elliott> Hmm, I wonder what the first DOS that was compatible with anything was
18:42:33 <elliott> First version had no directories so that is pretty much out
18:42:39 <elliott> Seems like it only supported ten meg disks
18:42:47 <pikhq> "Compatibile with anything"?
18:43:08 <elliott> pikhq: "Compatible with a wide range of applications and games made for DOS"
18:43:17 <elliott> e.g., the popular thirty-two bit extenders should work
18:43:39 <elliott> hmm, all Wikipedia lists 3.0 as adding is larger disk support, but I guess their changelog might not be very complete :-)
18:43:49 <elliott> oh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_x86_DOS_operating_systems is better
18:44:03 <elliott> Microsoft releases MS-DOS 2.0, which introduces a Unix/Xenix-like hierarchical file system, installable device drivers (e.g. ANSI.SYS) in the system configuration file CONFIG.SYS, and adds internal commands BREAK, CHDIR or CD, CLS, CTTY, EXIT, FC, MKDIR or MD, PATH, PROMPT, RMDIR or RD, SET (environments), VER, VERIFY and VOL. New external commands are DISKCOPY (not identical to IBM's version), PRINT (spooling); three filters supported with stand
18:44:04 <elliott> ard devices and redirection: FIND, SORT and MORE; BACKUP, RESTORE and RECOVER. New batch file commands are ECHO, FOR, GOTO, IF and SHIFT. CONFIG.SYS commands are BREAK, BUFFERS, DEVICE, FILES and SHELL. New file attribute bits are read-only, volume label, subdirectory and archive. A team of six developers produced version 2.0, led by Paul Allen, Mark Zbikowski and Aaron Reynolds.[1]
18:44:11 <elliott> pikhq: are you sure it's not 2.0? that's a lot of modernisation there
18:44:29 <pikhq> DOS 3.0 did some minor API tweaks for the larger disk support.
18:44:53 <elliott> now i just need to find dos 3 floppies >:)
18:44:57 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure they didn't actually change the API past that.
18:45:07 <elliott> http://torrentz.eu/search?f=DOS+3 ;; lame
18:45:08 <pikhq> Just add more features to what was already there.
18:45:16 <fizzie> The 32 Mb partition limit was there for quite long, if I recall correctly.
18:45:25 <elliott> FireFly: better than ten megs
18:45:30 <fizzie> Went away in 3.something.
18:45:42 <elliott> http://oldfiles.org.uk/ oh man this design.
18:45:54 <elliott> FireFly: Version 3.0 (OEM) - Support for larger Hard Disk Drives
18:45:54 <elliott> Version 3.31 (OEM) - Compaq 3.31 supports FAT16 and larger drives.
18:46:02 <elliott> So I suspect the first three version was it
18:46:38 <fizzie> I do recall splitting a huge 40 MB disk into 32/8 and putting Populous' DOS port on the D: part.
18:46:51 <elliott> What's the point of that :P
18:47:04 <elliott> Oh, to get around the limit.
18:47:23 <fizzie> Right. It's the only thing I remember using D: for, but I'm sure there was something else too.
18:47:41 <elliott> fizzie: Populous is rather newer than these versions, though. But I guess Scandinavia was ~slow~.
18:49:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_x86_DOS_operating_systems "Technical specifications" / "Max Hard Drive partition size" says the 32M limit was there for the whole 3.x series, and only 4.0 bumped it up to 2G.
18:50:13 <fizzie> Not sure what to trust; my own very fallible memory would've put the change around 3.33.
18:50:16 <elliott> Holy shit, in two thousand and sixteen Microsoft will be forty years old.
18:50:44 <pikhq> And still dealing with the legacy of their choice to support a CP/M clone.
18:52:27 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table#Initial_FAT16 speaks of the partition size limit too.
18:52:44 <elliott> I appear to be unable to find dos three floppies.
18:53:12 <fizzie> I have a 3.2 box somewhere, but no operational floppy drive at the moment, I don't think.
18:53:42 <fizzie> (I'm 1300 km from the box anyway.)
18:53:43 <elliott> fizzie: Not that you'd ever do something so illegal, after all; haven't you read that open letter by Bill Gates?
18:54:25 <fizzie> Yes, I suppose DOS 3's still selling quite well.
18:55:18 <elliott> I wonder if you can still actually buy it.
18:56:28 <fizzie> From eBay, at least. :p
18:56:40 <elliott> Noooooo, I want to give back to the Big G.
18:57:16 <coppro> holy shit I have money
18:57:48 <coppro> elliott: also why is your TV so much better than the Americans'?
18:58:14 <elliott> I take it you mean the "terrestrial" channels rather than the full range on freeview or Sky, because the latter ios 90 percent absolute pap.
18:58:23 <elliott> And the answer is communism.
18:58:31 <fizzie> Today's interesting things from the conference: there was one rather nice-looking texture reconstruction (in the photoshop "context-aware fill" style) poster that at least had pretty pictures. (One assumes they've selected the best-working examples, of course.)
18:58:36 <zzo38> There is also FreeDOS, which can be modified to do the things you want it to do instead.
18:59:08 <elliott> BBC? Government. ITV and Channel 4? Public service. Channel 5? Erm, shitty.
18:59:30 <elliott> fizzie: That's quite a popular kind of thing nowadays isn't it.
19:00:04 <elliott> fizzie: Reddit gave this amusing example recently:
19:00:15 <elliott> (Source image) Badly-stitched thing: http://i.imgur.com/RBELd.jpg
19:00:19 <elliott> Photoshop content-aware filled: http://i.imgur.com/ZBSkK.jpg
19:00:35 <elliott> GIMP filled with resynthesizer: http://i.imgur.com/biWF6.jpg
19:02:06 <fizzie> Then there was a thing that can distinguish singly- and doubly-encoded JPEGs, for the use case where you detect forgeries by assuming they've been double-compressed. (I don't think they really took into account the various other ways -- like stupid(tm) rotation -- images can get double-compiled, I mean compressed.)
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19:03:04 <elliott> fizzie: Was there anybody doing a demonstration of why speech recognition is useless and pointless and nobody will ever want it ever and it's basically just this big ol' joke?
19:03:42 <fizzie> Well, the day's plenary talk was sort-of.
19:03:52 <fizzie> Though maybe not in those exact works.
19:04:03 <elliott> He's making typos I think I upset him
19:04:21 <fizzie> I blame the laptop keyboard. (A convenient excuse.)
19:04:30 <elliott> "Also my uncontrollable sobbing."
19:04:46 <elliott> Hey pikhq do you have an ms dos floppy.
19:04:54 <fizzie> That too. Inconspicious topic-shift! The Resynthesizer(tm) is indeed one of my favourite things.
19:05:15 <elliott> I would definitely go and visit http://i.imgur.com/biWF6.jpg, that's for sure.
19:05:33 <elliott> I like how it sort of invented a volcano in the stitch.
19:05:35 <zzo38> Is there some program that can convert JPEG to format that you can convert back without changing the lossy part of the compression? But that the new file can then be rotated and manipulated in ways before it is put back?
19:06:22 <elliott> 3.01984Support for high-density (1.2 MB) floppy disks and 32 MB hard disks was added.
19:06:26 <elliott> 3.31987This release was written to take advantage of IBM's PS/2 computer range. It added support for high density 3.5" floppy disks, more than one partition on hard disks (allowing use of disks bigger than 32 MB) and code pages.
19:06:49 <elliott> fizzie: So 3.3 just let you circumvent the /drive/ limit by letting you partition it.
19:06:57 <elliott> 4.01988This version provided XMS support, support for partitions on hard disks up to 2 GB and a graphical shell. It also contained a large number of bugs and many programs refused to run on it.
19:07:02 <elliott> Probably that added bigger-partition support too.
19:09:51 <elliott> File name: Microsoft DOS 3.31 (3½).rar
19:09:51 <elliott> File description: Microsoft MS-DOS 3.31 By LsFer010
19:09:55 <elliott> Oh hey cool, Google pays off.
19:10:35 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1.5M 1996-12-24 23:32 Disk1.img
19:10:44 <elliott> It was two thousand and ninety-six in the archive. :p
19:12:15 <elliott> fizzie: pikhq: Wow, it displays the current year correctly.
19:13:01 <fizzie> I think it was two 5.25" floppies, but could be the other one was something non-essential.
19:13:25 <elliott> File name: Microsoft DOS 3.2 (5¼).rar
19:13:37 <elliott> 3.31987This release was written to take advantage of IBM's PS/2 computer range. It added support for high density 3.5" floppy disks, more than one partition on hard disks (allowing use of disks bigger than 32 MB) and code pages.
19:14:03 <elliott> Hey how did you actually install DOS anyway I do not even know.
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19:14:51 <fizzie> zzo38: There are at least tools that rotate (and mirror and crop; with some restrictions) JPEG images without decompressing; I don't think there's any standard easily-manipulatable format though.
19:17:16 <elliott> I do not even know this thing.
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19:19:06 <elliott> Do you just copy all the files to C:\DOS.
19:19:10 <elliott> Is that what you do fizzie.
19:19:38 <fizzie> The versions I recall more clearly used to have a SETUP.EXE.
19:19:53 <fizzie> You do need to at least SYS the drive to get the boot thingies in place.
19:20:11 <elliott> Do I need to sys the drive before I setup.
19:20:24 <fizzie> Nah, the setup will take care of it.
19:20:37 <elliott> "setup" just seems to... hang.
19:20:41 <fizzie> You may need to FDISK the drive before, though.
19:20:42 <elliott> Maybe it is working very hard.
19:20:52 <elliott> OK fdisk is a thing I can do.
19:23:58 <elliott> fizzie: Seems like the setup tool doesn't like me so I'll just do it manually.
19:24:06 <elliott> CONFIG.SYS and COMMAND.COM have to be in the root directory, right? What else?
19:25:28 <fizzie> Not much that I recall; you do need to either SYS it or FORMAT /S (if I recall the flag right) to make it put a boot sector. And I can't quite recall what made it put the usual code into MBR.
19:25:48 <fizzie> SYS will copy command.com too, I think.
19:25:50 <elliott> I seem to have a boot sector, it just complains about a lack of command interpreter now.
19:26:01 <elliott> "SYS C:" doesn't seem to copy t.
19:26:24 <elliott> C:\DOS is the usual place for all the other files though, right?
19:27:16 <fizzie> You could try with FORMAT /S and then copying the necessary things in \DOS.
19:27:39 <elliott> Geh, how do you move things.
19:27:45 <elliott> "rename DOS\COMMAND.COM COMMAND.COM" doesn't work.
19:28:00 <elliott> Also, no /S here it seems; too MODERN.
19:29:10 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't have any MOVE.
19:29:36 <elliott> Or maybe this download sucks.
19:31:42 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you messing with dos?
19:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, or is it badly coded or something?
19:33:44 <elliott> Too new, lame protected mode, PEH
19:33:50 <elliott> Now how do you stop DOS asking for a new date/time on each boot.
19:36:38 <fizzie> Make an autoexec.bat for it.
19:36:50 <fizzie> I think the date/time query only hits if you don't have one.
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19:45:50 <Sgeo> I was playing Portal 2
19:45:58 <Sgeo> It closed out on me after being minimized
19:46:00 * pikhq beats head against wall
19:46:08 <pikhq> "Occam's Razor Is Simply Wrong!"
19:46:16 <Sgeo> It's just not on the taskbar
19:46:17 <pikhq> OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH
19:46:27 <pikhq> THE PAIN AND AGONY IS ASTOUNDING
19:47:06 <pikhq> Oh. Poe's Law in full force.
19:47:33 <pikhq> Thanks be to goodness.
19:48:10 <ais523> gah, I keep forgetting what Poe's Law is even despite looking it up at least twice
19:48:12 * ais523 looks it up a third time
19:48:31 <pikhq> It's a very fundamental law of discourse.
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19:58:05 <Vorpal> wait what, firefox makes sound when you type in something for search on page and it isn't found!?
19:58:31 <Vorpal> I usually only use sound when listening to music or playing games, I guess that is why I never noticed before... But how do you turn that off...
20:02:17 <zzo38> I don't know, maybe go to about:config and then find the correct setting to turn off
20:03:51 <Vorpal> hmm. accessibility.typeaheadfind.enablesound looks promising.
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20:14:39 * cpressey inks out "ais523" and "zzo38" on his "#esoteric Bingo" card
20:14:56 -!- Tritonio has joined.
20:15:53 <cpressey> oh, and "Phantom_Hoover". score. only five more squares until blackout
20:16:05 <ais523> cpressey: people who are in the channel simultaneously with you?
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20:16:58 <cpressey> yeah, see, many of the nicks here, are always here, and thus not interesting to observe, when I join
20:17:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, neither ais523 nor zzo38 are always here
20:18:24 <ais523> Vorpal: that's what cpressey implied
20:18:50 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, didn't he imply that you were always here?
20:19:03 <ais523> because if I were, me being here wouldn't be interesting
20:19:08 <ais523> and he clearly found it interesting
20:19:17 <Vorpal> ais523, I have no idea how bingo works
20:19:21 <ais523> there are so many genders I don't know
20:19:38 <Vorpal> ais523, is blacking it out interesting or non-interesting
20:19:56 <Vorpal> ais523, what does it mean in real bingo?
20:20:02 <ais523> basically, you have a list of numbers on the card, and the announcer calls out random numbers
20:20:10 <ais523> if they call out a number on your card, you get to cross it off the card
20:20:15 <ais523> you win when there are none left
20:20:22 <ais523> and often also get a prize if you manage to form certain patterns
20:20:27 <ais523> it's an entirely luck-based game
20:20:37 <ais523> variants often replace the numbers with something else
20:20:55 <Vorpal> ais523, I was just about to suggest that simply applying a PRNG once to decide who won would be easier. But it would not handle the pattern case.
20:21:11 <ais523> Vorpal: that would defeat most of the interest in the game, though
20:21:27 <ais523> which is people thinking "ooh, I've almost won" and then just getting beaten
20:21:30 <Vorpal> ais523, apart from the pattern bit, this game doesn't sound very interesting
20:21:34 <ais523> I don't find it a particularly interesting game myself, though
20:22:01 <ais523> oh, also I think the announcer never repeats numbers, but that's just to save time
20:22:12 <ais523> (note that you don't get to choose the numbers on the card, they're random too)
20:22:56 <cpressey> it's almost entirely luck. there is the small factor of being able to pay attention to the announcer.
20:23:17 <cpressey> if you are easily distracted, that can work against you.
20:24:04 <cheater__> the game is a secondary factor, the primary factor is the social aspect of many people sitting in one room, and everyone hoping to be the one who gets to shout bingo! drawing attention to themselves.
20:24:34 <cpressey> yeah, what they don't realize is that you can just join an IRC channel and do that.
20:24:44 <cheater__> except that just randomly choosing who gets to stand up and shout bingo! is too stupid even for those people, so they make the pretense of an actual game
20:25:51 <cpressey> so I was going to try my hand at implementing Deadfish in ooc
20:26:08 <cpressey> then I realized that the ooc compiler is self-hosted
20:26:17 <cpressey> and you need a binary package to bootstrap it
20:26:52 <ais523> you can use a cross-compiler in order to break the infinite regress
20:27:19 <cpressey> there might. i haven't come across it though
20:27:47 <cpressey> but what I was thinking is: doesn't this go against open-source a little? how do I know what this binary contains? how do I know it was compiled from these sources?
20:28:26 <cpressey> doesn't supporting all these platforms impose a drain on resources?
20:29:43 <cpressey> if there was an ooc interpreter in a popular scripting language, wouldn't that do the job for bootstrapping just as well?
20:29:46 <olsner> "Q: If I don't need another ooc compiler to compile this one, how does it work? What does 'make bootstrap' do?
20:29:46 <olsner> A: 'make bootstrap' builds a rock binary from the C sources in build/c-source, calls it bin/c_rock, and uses it to recompile itself to bin/rock"
20:30:18 <cpressey> "make" does not tell you any of this -- it tells you to go fetch a bootstrap package
20:31:22 <olsner> I guess the FAQ could be out of date, if it isn't just the makefile that is a lying bastard
20:31:24 <cpressey> er, it apparently IS a crock. "make bootstrap" tells me the same thing
20:31:36 <olsner> they're probably both wrong
20:31:37 <cpressey> I think the faq is out of date
20:32:10 <Sgeo> Plugged in, not charging
20:32:14 <Sgeo> A reboot tends to solve this
20:32:19 <Sgeo> !@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@#$%^*(&%$@@#$^&*(O
20:32:36 <cpressey> ...the Makefile *looks* like that should work.
20:34:49 <cpressey> no, looks like the version of rock on github does not include the necessary C sources.
20:35:47 <cpressey> back to boring javascript debugging fun fun
20:35:59 <CakeProphet> javascript is the easiest language to debug by far.
20:36:01 <olsner> the next point in the faq mentions another make target for generating the C sources (using rock)
20:37:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:38:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:38:22 * Sgeo_ is most certainly not CakeProphet
20:39:03 <CakeProphet> you're my utter reflection, Sgeo, what do you mean?
20:41:34 <cpressey> olsner: the awesomeness of this build system has defeated me.
20:43:15 <cpressey> I mean, it would appear rock is required to build the C sources required to build c_rock required to bootstrap rock
20:43:35 <olsner> at one point in my life I should just go ahead and write a compiler directly in the language that it will compile from, and not bother figuring out how to bootstrap it before releasing it
20:44:42 <CakeProphet> There's a bug in this Perl IRC bot I made that I haven't been able to figure out for 2 days now.
20:46:42 <cpressey> But Perl is almost as easy to debug as Javascript!
20:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> God, that expressive type system makes finding bugs nigh-impossible!
20:57:53 <cheater__> wouldn't perl be great for like.. interactive programming
20:58:00 <cheater__> say you have some data set that you need to process
20:58:26 <cheater__> you're in the editor, and every time you enter something it gets re-run with that data.
20:58:35 <cheater__> in another pane you have a live display of the data set.
20:59:09 <cheater__> so let's say you're doing some statistics, you could have a live display of the data analysis, like say a distribution graph.
21:00:23 <cheater__> perl is very terse, so it lends itself to this sort of thing.
21:04:09 <cpressey> Yes, Perl should be used for interactive statistics. While R is better suited for IRC bots: https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype
21:14:43 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:17:23 <ais523> oklopol: in what context?
21:17:42 <oklopol> don't ruin my fun by being like that
21:18:14 <oklopol> in the context "my ape is a grape"
21:18:40 <oklopol> (it is actually not a grape)
21:19:22 <oklopol> so ais523, what you been up to?
21:19:42 <ais523> trying to get a report finished
21:19:53 <ais523> also training Pokémon for the national Pokémon championships in a couple of weeks
21:20:14 <ais523> it's a particularly boring report, trying to demonstrate that I know enough about what I'm doing to be allowed to continue on a PhD
21:20:48 <oklopol> i just got my funding for the phd like, umm, yesterday or something
21:21:09 <ais523> I got my funding ages ago
21:21:16 <oklopol> i mean officially, it was rather obvious from the start that i'd get it
21:21:33 <ais523> but after a year, they make people do a report to determine whether I've actually been doing something PhD-worthy or whether they should stop funding it and cut their losses
21:21:40 <oklopol> but i only finished my master's degree this year
21:22:24 <oklopol> although i'm sure they only cut it if you directly admit you've been doing drugs and whores the whole time.
21:23:01 <oklopol> given that it's rather hard to measure the progress of an artist :o
21:23:14 * oklopol likes to think of himself as an artist
21:23:50 * oklopol 's ex was always like lol u no artist u just a scientist
21:24:04 * oklopol on the other hand was like stfu i'm so
21:24:28 <oklopol> also i'm rather drunk in case that was not obvious
21:25:56 * oklopol 's dad on the third hand is always like he so an artist even though he's mostly a drunk
21:28:50 <oklopol> i'm writing this survey, and it's hard because people haven't proven the things i want to mention, and i'm not supposed to prove them myself
21:31:07 <zzo38> Why are you not supposed to prove them yourself?
21:31:38 <oklopol> that's not the point of a survey
21:32:04 <oklopol> the point of a survey is to present the current state of a theory
21:32:48 <zzo38> Can you not present the current state if there is no proof?
21:32:49 <oklopol> the problem is people tend to prove trivial things that sound nontrivial instead of actually trying to solve things
21:33:23 <oklopol> proofs are the only things that further the theory in mathematics
21:33:36 <zzo38> If it is required that it is proven, then use a pseudonym or whatever
21:33:54 <oklopol> what do you mean? prove it myself in another paper?
21:34:06 <zzo38> Yes, if you know how to prove it, that is.
21:35:00 <oklopol> well i already present some of my own results, but i mean there are these couple of things that are obviously true, but i have no idea how to prove them without doing probably a month of research
21:35:10 <oklopol> so it'd be nice if someone had done this
21:35:43 <oklopol> but yeah you're right, if i had a complete existing proof
21:35:46 <zzo38> Yes I think you might be correct. What matematical theories are these that you are dealing with?
21:35:48 -!- lambdabot has joined.
21:36:09 <oklopol> the theory of picture-walking automata
21:36:42 <oklopol> the stuff i did in my master's thesis
21:39:36 <oklopol> so zzo38 what YOU been up to?
21:40:26 <zzo38> I have been playing D&D on the weekend I was in Victoria, and then yesterday I was recording the game on my computer.
21:41:26 <zzo38> However I have plans to work on TeXnicard, too. I have a request for you: If you have any ideas or feature requests for TeXnicard, tell me I can put them near the end of the book (just before the index).
21:41:45 <zzo38> oklopol: Recording http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/
21:41:54 <zzo38> That's what it means.
21:41:56 <oklopol> so what was this texnicard exactly
21:42:44 <Sgeo_> My computer is making distressing noises
21:42:46 <zzo38> oklopol: TeXnicard is not related to the D&D game. For information about TeXnicard: http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git
21:42:55 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What noise, to be specific?
21:43:14 <Sgeo_> As though something's rattling around
21:43:33 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Then open it and look inside to see if something is rattling around. Maybe the fan?
21:44:00 <oklopol> Sgeo_: so what you been up to?
21:44:49 <Sgeo_> Hoping that my computer isn't physically dying
21:45:01 <Sgeo_> And being obsessed with Homestuck
21:45:09 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:45:15 <oklopol> i've been hearing about this homestuck thing
21:45:19 <zzo38> oklopol: Do you have opinions about TeXnicard or about the D&D recording files?
21:45:56 <oklopol> zzo38: not really. i only have opinions on math nowadays :\
21:45:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:46:12 <oklopol> well, and some other things. but not texnicard or dd
21:46:20 <zzo38> oklopol: Do you have opinions about the twin primes conjecture?
21:46:50 <oklopol> well i have my usual line w.r.t. conjectures: "it's obviously true"
21:47:05 <ais523> oklopol: is that adjusted for P=NP?
21:47:09 <oklopol> although in the case of twin primes conjecture, i'm not sure that's actually my opinion since i don't know anything abou tit
21:47:17 <oklopol> yeah P!=NP is obviously true
21:47:29 <oklopol> in fact, the whole polynomial hierarchy is obviously proper
21:50:38 <oklopol> actually in the picture-walking automata case, the polynomial hierarchy has at least two propers levels!
21:50:48 -!- micahjohnston has changed nick to ebay.
21:50:51 -!- ebay has changed nick to micahjohnston.
21:50:57 <oklopol> of course, this has nothing to do with the corresponding complexity theory problem
21:51:31 <oklopol> mostly i decided to call another thing a polynomial hierarchy, because it had a similar feel to it
21:53:18 <Sgeo_> Why won't the event viewer work? :(
21:54:27 -!- micahjohnston has changed nick to elliotcable.
21:56:01 <Sgeo_> Nothing that looks hardware related. Well, one thing about some communications failure
21:56:26 <Sgeo_> "The embedded controller (EC) did not respond within the specified timeout period. This may indicate that there is an error in the EC hardware or firmware or that the BIOS is accessing the EC incorrectly. You should check with your computer manufacturer for an upgraded BIOS. In some situations, this error may cause the computer to function incorrectly."
21:56:29 <Vorpal> a* Phantom_Hoover → sleep <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. <-- heh
21:57:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, weeeelll that sounds like big problems
21:57:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I presume it is a laptop?
21:57:37 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:58:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, at least on thinkpads there is an EC deeply involved in making "laptopish functions" work
21:58:33 <Sgeo_> "laptopish" functions?
21:58:49 <Sgeo_> Um, does that include moving the HD head elsewhere when there are vibrations?
21:58:49 -!- elliotcable has changed nick to micahjohnston.
21:58:52 <zzo38> Do you mean, like, when it is closed/open?
21:59:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, everything from setting brightness on screen and setting battery charge tresholds to enabling and disabling wlan and bluetooth
21:59:38 <Vorpal> <Sgeo_> Um, does that include moving the HD head elsewhere when there are vibrations? <-- I'm not sure how it reads the accelerometer
21:59:41 <Sgeo_> Easiest thing for me to test?
21:59:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, well it could be for some stuff only *shrug*
22:00:08 <Vorpal> I don't *think* that accelerometer reading uses the EC.
22:00:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:00:17 <Vorpal> the actual hd head moving does not use it
22:00:24 <Vorpal> but the accelerometer reading might
22:00:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, is that a thinkpad you have there?
22:00:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, well it could be very different for that brand
22:01:16 <Vorpal> I have next to no experience with that
22:02:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I think the EC on my thinkpad handles stuff like Fn-PgUp turning on LED lighting up the keyboard
22:03:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, what is the issue you are seeing?
22:04:07 <Sgeo_> There's a funny sound when I tilt my laptop sometimes
22:04:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, you are doing it wrong. You don't tilt laptops
22:04:55 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I would argue using laptops in your lap is stupid :P
22:06:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:07:03 <Vorpal> oh hi oerjan! There are some bad puns in the logs. Grep for Arla.
22:08:07 <ais523> `addquote <Vorpal> night → <Vorpal> oh hi oerjan! There are some bad puns in the logs. Grep for Arla. <Vorpal> night →→
22:08:10 <HackEgo> 428) <Vorpal> night → <Vorpal> oh hi oerjan! There are some bad puns in the logs. Grep for Arla. <Vorpal> night →→
22:11:21 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:13:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:13:41 <oklopol> oerjan: so how about those simplicial complexes
22:15:04 -!- Rtype has joined.
22:15:12 <oerjan> well simply put, they are complex
22:15:37 <oklopol> well actually they don't seem to be complex in either sense of the word
22:16:11 -!- Rtype has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:40 <oklopol> how about that homotopy though? :D
22:17:46 -!- Rtype has joined.
22:17:57 <cpressey> hi Rtype are you gonna crash on me?
22:18:26 <cpressey> I should probably take you to another channel Rtype
22:18:39 -!- Rtype has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:18:46 <oklopol> this is a good channel for Rtype imo
22:19:19 <oerjan> well the functor from continuous functions to homology groups identifies homotopic functions, is what i recall, and this is somehow obvious from the simplicial complexes i even more vaguely recall
22:20:25 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:20:36 <oklopol> no yeah i don't know what that is
22:20:51 <oerjan> ...what else would you use simplicial complexes for
22:21:24 <oerjan> i only know them as a step on the road to getting the groups (or modules, if you have a more arbitrary ring)
22:21:27 <oklopol> well they are nice little spaces
22:21:33 <cpressey> Is that functor a continuous functor? I... am trying to wrap my head around such things existing
22:22:30 <oerjan> i don't know what continuity would mean for functors, although someone has probably defined it
22:22:33 <oklopol> you can build pretty much any space you can think of out of simplicial complexes
22:23:00 <cpressey> Well, functions can be continuous on the reals; you can have spaces of functions which resemble the reals; sooooo....
22:23:07 <oklopol> well, assuming you have a sucky imagination
22:23:11 <cpressey> I haven't mathed in a long time
22:23:18 -!- h[a]gb4rd has joined.
22:23:27 <oerjan> oklopol: oh hm i'm a bit confused on the terminology
22:23:30 <oklopol> a functor is not a function from functions to functions in this case
22:24:04 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:24:43 -!- Tritonio has joined.
22:24:48 <oerjan> argh this bloody laptop and its constant leaking of memory
22:25:10 <oklopol> oerjan: my definition is simplicial complex = collection of simplexes closed under faces (plus intersections of simplexes are faces)
22:25:57 <oklopol> pardon the extreme simplification, that doesn't really mean much :D
22:25:59 <cpressey> now oerjan's lap is covered with blood and memory
22:26:47 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm just reading this book on algebraic topology, not sure what they're going to use simplicial complexes for, yet.
22:27:03 <oerjan> oklopol: i was confusing simplicial complexes with the chain complexes made from them
22:28:15 <oerjan> those being the next step after you construct simplicial complexes, just before you construct the homology groups
22:28:20 <oklopol> i'll probably take a rather deep look into this algebraic topology thing, i saw this one general proof about exact sequences and it was just incredible
22:29:46 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't have a kind-of definition for them?
22:31:02 <oerjan> they're a sequence of modules/abelian groups with a homomorphism from each to the next such that neigboring homomorphisms compose to 0
22:31:30 <oerjan> exact sequences being a subset of them, i think
22:31:37 <oklopol> oh so a... well what do you call a non-exact exact sequence
22:32:11 <oerjan> well my advisor spoke about half exact sequences, but that's a bit different again
22:32:20 <oklopol> in an exact sequence, the image is exactly the kernel of the next
22:32:37 <oerjan> well in a chain complex the image is simply contained in the kernel
22:32:57 <oklopol> so i guess the idea is you have a space and then you build a space on top of that and then another space on top of that and so on
22:34:28 <oklopol> what i most love about math is that the technical aspect is so entertaining the authors usually don't bother to mention what they're actually doing
22:34:49 <oerjan> the homology groups give some exact sequences later
22:34:53 <oklopol> even when there's a clear intuitive idea
22:35:31 <oklopol> also it's possible you're supposed to come up with that on your own, it's certainly a rather small task compared to understanding the details
22:36:08 <oklopol> but umm homology groups, what are the elements and what is the operation?
22:36:32 <oklopol> not the fundamental group?
22:37:14 <oerjan> oklopol: oh there was a blog post on something like this on reddit, i'd find it but my computer is currently thrashing
22:37:34 <oerjan> (about not bothering to mention things)
22:38:02 <oerjan> oh wait it's still in my recent tab list
22:38:21 <oklopol> oh? interestingly enough, no mathematician has ever bothered to mention that they tend not to bother to mention things.
22:39:03 <oerjan> the homology groups are the quotients of consecutive terms of the chain complex you construct from the simplicial complex
22:39:22 <oerjan> http://scienceblogs.com/evolutionblog/2011/05/monday_math_a_rant_about_jargo.php
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22:40:00 <oklopol> i have to go to sleep now, i'll talk to you more after learning everything about this stuff
22:40:16 <oerjan> cpressey: pretty much, this is the field which _inspired_ category theory in order to be able to build things like that
22:41:23 <oerjan> *from the simplicial complexes
22:41:50 <oerjan> the chain complex is constructed from all of them for a space
22:42:50 <oerjan> although i think you can do restrictions such as differentiability (i think the famous de rham theorem may involve that)
22:43:03 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:43:39 <oerjan> oklopol: the _first_ homology group is the abelian part of the fundamental group, the rest are pretty unrelated
22:44:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:32 -!- micahjohnston has changed nick to micah|insane.
22:44:48 <oklopol> that article is not quite about what i'm talking about
22:45:02 <oklopol> in fact, i'm rarely satisfied with the amount of formality in textbooks
22:45:03 <oerjan> well it sounded related
22:45:29 <oerjan> yeah but this article is about how most err the other way, possibly _as well_
22:46:01 <oerjan> i suppose you could have too little formality _and_ too little motivation at the same time
22:46:21 <cpressey> leave relevance to those... physicists or whatever they're called
22:46:29 <oklopol> well see i'd like immense formality, but on the other hand it would be nice if they started with MENTIONING the why
22:46:35 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:46:47 <cpressey> don't assume they know the why
22:47:18 <oklopol> well true, the best part of math is when you don't really know the why, you can just skip it and be correct
22:47:22 <oerjan> cpressey: it's not just about relevance, but about _internal_ motivation as well
22:47:23 -!- wareya has joined.
22:47:43 <oerjan> which is suppose is the same as relevance to other mathematics
22:49:45 <oklopol> really i don't know what it is in general that i feel is missing from math texts.
22:50:19 <oklopol> but usually there's some simple idea that i get after reading the material a few times, and i just feel like it should've been the first sentence of the book
22:50:55 <oklopol> instead of definition 1.1.1 N is the set of nonnegative integers
22:51:27 <cpressey> if i'm lucky, i get that idea, too
22:52:03 <cpressey> but mathematics is about RESULTS! not intuitions! because intuitions can LIE!
22:52:19 <oklopol> well often there are many of them and in fact for each of them, one of the theorems says *exactly* that
22:53:33 <oklopol> but understanding things by reading is very, very hard. i guess that's why they have exercises. but who does those unless they have to.
22:53:36 <cpressey> i don't think you can call mathematics on "jargon", though, because unlike other fields, each of the pieces of "jargon" is (or should be) a well-defined abstraction, that is built upon
22:54:44 <oklopol> in fact i'd say there is no jargon, you don't really say anything unless you defined it yourself or it's english for monkeys
22:54:54 -!- elliott has joined.
22:54:57 <oklopol> or if it's a well-known math term
22:55:20 <oklopol> of course, well-known is rather relative and about 100 people actually know the term but anyhow
22:55:31 <pikhq_> And well-known math terms are themselves quite well defined.
22:56:56 <elliott> cpressey: i made you win your bingo maybe
22:59:17 <elliott> cpressey: ooc has a java interpreter btw
22:59:22 <elliott> i don't know if it can bootstrap their compiler though
22:59:55 <elliott> 20:35:59: <CakeProphet> javascript is the easiest language to debug by far.
23:00:43 <elliott> 21:04:09: <cpressey> Yes, Perl should be used for interactive statistics. While R is better suited for IRC bots: https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype
23:00:43 <elliott> dunno if i've mentioned how awesome you are lately
23:01:00 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:10:13 <cpressey> I /am/ pretty awesome, but not as awesome as ooc's build process. That one is /highly awesome/.
23:10:45 <elliott> re: the open source thing, I think it might be a fallacy in disguise
23:10:59 <elliott> do you audit gigantic C interpreter source trees before you compile them?
23:11:11 <elliott> doubtfully, so you're still essentially trusting that the source does what they say it does (interprets a language)
23:11:24 <cpressey> did I say that didn't bother me too?
23:11:24 <elliott> that's not really different to trusting that their pregenerated C source is compiled from their compiler sources
23:11:43 <elliott> cpressey: well no but it shouldn't bother you /much/ or... everything will bother you
23:11:46 <cpressey> and I doubt Intel will give me the schematics of this cpu here
23:12:19 <elliott> I mean unless you're going to do the double-compiling rigmarole constantly and only use things whose full source code you've audited, you're always going to be making assumptions with our current terrible security models
23:12:45 <cpressey> well, there is a possible world which will contain more of this (I download an ooc binary) and a possible world which will contain less of this (I don't download the ooc binary and, rather, forget ooc exists)
23:13:06 <cpressey> Still trying to figure out why Bitbucket thinks it's popular enough to include in its list of languages
23:13:21 <cpressey> Still unable to find a project on Bitbucket that is identifiably "crafted in ooc"
23:13:43 <zzo38> What does "ooc" means?
23:14:02 <cpressey> I don't know what it stands for, if it stands for anything.
23:14:16 <Sgeo_> The creator comes here sometimes
23:15:23 <elliott> does bitbucket even have search by language
23:15:49 <elliott> but then i guess that's what bitbucket is...
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23:22:03 <zzo38> I seem to be bad at code golf except in a few cases...... for Deadfish challenge, I beat everyone at AWK but not at anything else. I almost beat everyone at C, I did badly with JavaScript, and I don't know much about Perl.
23:23:17 <zzo38> (I did, however, beat a few people on this channel, as far as I know: ais523 and adam.)
23:24:18 <zzo38> (And #esoteric did beat ditto and bk1e.)
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23:26:01 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=736
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