←2011-06-02 2011-06-03 2011-06-04→ ↑2011 ↑all
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00:17:53 <Sgeo> I think I just figured out how to give my native function calling O(log n) complexity
00:18:10 <Sgeo> Highly inspired by a sleep-deprived misreading of something someone else wrote
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00:27:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, ah, so that's why you all do that.
00:29:48 <Sgeo> Hm?
00:30:02 <Sgeo> I just need to do a hard-coded binary search
00:30:16 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean get sleep deprived.
00:31:23 <olsner> wear down your defences until weird ideas attack you, hoping some of those ideas end up being useful
00:31:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Exactly.
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00:55:55 <Sgeo> It's impossible to do CPS without TCO, right?
00:58:30 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style#CPS_and_tail_calls
01:00:43 <Sgeo> Maybe I should read up on what Chicken Scheme does
01:13:01 <Sgeo> Why can't I do first-class continuations without CPS?
01:22:33 <Sgeo> LSL does, in fact, have a goto
01:22:38 <Sgeo> This would have been good to remember.
01:22:47 <pikhq_> Actually, it's more that CPS completely and utterly eliminates the need for a call stack at all.
01:23:40 <Sgeo> That's not the only reason for going CPS, is it?
01:25:31 <Sgeo> If I don't take the bytecode approach, I can use GOTOs as a sort of call, since there's no need to return from it in CPS
01:26:40 <pikhq_> It is a compelling argument if doing TCO would be a pain but just doing a jump would be easy.
01:27:13 <pikhq_> Still have to manage your closures, but eh, you'd have to do that in most languages.
01:27:47 <Sgeo> Thing is, the jump itself is hardcoded I think
01:28:05 <Sgeo> Not sure if that affects anything, I don't know what C gotos are like
01:28:28 <Sgeo> http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=jump
01:28:54 <Sgeo> "Note: Please see the comments, you can only have a single jump statement going to a label."
01:28:56 <Sgeo> The fuck?
01:30:30 <zzo38> Which means, you need two labels in one place if you want to jump twice?
01:30:47 <Sgeo> Yes
01:31:17 <Sgeo> Well, no, if you call the same jump statement twice
01:32:56 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Give up now.
01:33:28 <pikhq_> If you *really* feel nice, become a Linden and get them to start using ECMAScript or Lua or something else non-revolting.
01:33:32 <pikhq_> Otherwise, give up now.
01:34:12 <Sgeo> If I were to do the jump thing, I'd still have to deal with making them first-class somehow
01:35:36 <Sgeo> pikhq_, which part means I should give up?
01:35:42 <pikhq_> Sgeo: All of it.
01:37:40 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to read up on how Chicken compiles to C
02:01:39 <Sgeo> Why am I so scared to read http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html
02:02:13 <Sgeo> Also, LSL does not have malloc, but its lists can hold items of arbitrary types and lists allocated on the "stack" can be reassigned to with larger lists
02:02:27 <Sgeo> Don't know if that's proper terminology
02:03:15 <Sgeo> Appel's method is boring
02:06:37 <Sgeo> Ugh, this paper uses some sort of archaic C syntax
02:08:24 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or does this require being able to see the stack prior to the most recent function call?
02:08:32 <Sgeo> I don't think LSL is that powerful
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03:02:40 <CakeProphet> so could there be a way to set up a language to do CPS under the hood?
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03:29:08 <CakeProphet> Memes, a regular expression guide.
03:29:20 <CakeProphet> (.*?) .*? is \1
03:30:19 <CakeProphet> (?i)longcat is lo+ng([.!])+
03:31:11 <CakeProphet> (?i)yo dawg, I heard you like (.*?) so we put a \1 in your .*? so you can .*? while you .*?[.!]?
03:31:30 <CakeProphet> correction:
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03:31:44 <CakeProphet> (?i)yo dawg, I heard you like (.*?)(e?s)? so we put a \1 in your .*? so you can .*? while you .*?[.!]?
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03:32:28 <pikhq_> Yo dawg, I heard you like ZALGO HE WHO WAITS BEHIND THE WALL!!!
03:32:37 <pikhq_> </memutation>
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03:43:47 <pikhq_> Jeeze. Is... Microsoft getting rid of WIMP?
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03:47:29 <coppro> but
03:47:30 <coppro> but
03:47:36 <coppro> my weakly interacting massive particles :(
03:48:15 <pikhq_> Window Icon Menu Pointing device.
03:49:04 <coppro> what the hell is that?
03:49:21 <pikhq_> The traditional UI paradigm.
03:51:22 <coppro> define specifically
03:52:49 <pikhq_> Any UI with windows, icons, menus, and a pointing device as the primary features. Examples include Xerox Alto, Mac OS 1-present, Windows 1-7, KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc.
03:53:44 <coppro> ah ok
03:53:59 <coppro> what's microsoft trying to introduce instead?
03:54:02 <monqy> I dislike wimp. is their replacement any good?
03:54:08 <pikhq_> The Windows Phone 7 UI.
03:54:18 <coppro> Oo
03:54:27 <coppro> link?
03:54:33 <pikhq_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I
03:55:35 <coppro> hmm... interesting
03:55:44 <coppro> can't say I'll use it much
03:56:24 <pikhq_> And WINE is, no doubt, hating them so much.
04:00:35 <pikhq_> I really do wonder if they're dogfooding that.
04:00:51 <pikhq_> Actually, no, pretty sure they're not.
04:01:25 <pikhq_> You'd probably see more concessions to not fucking sticking your fingers in your vision if they were.
04:06:41 <coppro> microsoft? dogfood? that doesn't sound right :P
04:06:58 <pikhq_> They dogfood more than you'd expect.
04:07:23 <pikhq_> If it's good and from them, they probably dogfood it. :P
04:07:55 <coppro> so they dogfood nothing :P
04:11:02 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_your_own_dog_food#Criticism_and_alternatives
04:12:22 <coppro> worst part about dogfooding is not having a clue what's public
04:13:26 <coppro> e.g. search by subject was released at some point in the last month, and I haven't a clue when
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06:15:41 <zzo38> I mostly dislike WIMP interface (one reason most of my programs do not use it!)
06:17:29 <zzo38> Why do you think Pokemon de Panepon was designed so that BY DEFAULT THE SCORE ONLY GOES UP TO 99999 (you can push SELECT+A on the option menu to reveal more options, one of which allows the score to go up to 999999)?
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06:25:47 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, but you don't replace it with something which is *strictly worse* in a desktop environment.
06:26:06 <zzo38> pikhq: I agree, that Microsoft is in fact making it worse.
06:27:56 <monqy> I agree too
06:28:21 <monqy> touchscreens themselves strike me as gimmicky, as well
06:28:46 <zzo38> I prefer keyboard control, rather than touchscreens (there is more than one reason for this)
06:28:59 <monqy> keyboards always forever
06:30:17 <monqy> don't have to cover screen with hand, don't have to smear screen, faster to hit keys than drag hand, less awkward to hit keys than touch screen
06:30:20 <monqy> what else
06:31:31 <zzo38> I thought of all those reasons. One more is that there can be room on screen for all text/graphics while typing the keys, instead of having mode-switching on-screen keyboards or other similar things to that.
06:32:33 <monqy> onscreen keyboards suffer from acute awkward
06:33:42 <zzo38> And even another, is that if you have a separate keyboard then you can connect other devices there, such as separate number pad if you prefer it separate rather than joined; that you can build keyboard separately from the user interface; you can (except on some old terminals) physically move the keyboard differently than how the display is (allowing you to set viewing/typing angles)...
06:34:24 <zzo38> And, that in cases where mouse is also useful, sometimes it is useful to use some keys at the same time as that.
06:34:37 <monqy> I think the thing that annoyed me most about the windows 8 video was the fast and fluid app switching
06:35:16 <monqy> cycling through everything until hitting the right one, was it
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06:52:07 <coppro> touchscreens are not gimmicky
06:52:31 <coppro> they can be used in a gimmicky fashion
06:53:03 <coppro> but they have a wider range of input than a mouse and a well-designed interface can take advantage of this
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08:04:24 <oerjan> <pikhq_> If you *really* feel nice, become a Linden and get them to start using ECMAScript or Lua or something else non-revolting.
08:05:02 <oerjan> why do i get the feeling that this LSL thing you keep talking about is kept retarded precisely to _keep_ people from writing such stuff as Sgeo is trying to?
08:05:28 <oerjan> (i'm sure general TC computation is pretty resource intensive, after all)
08:05:42 <Sgeo> LSL is TC
08:05:59 <oerjan> yes but not in a convenient way, it seems
08:06:33 <Sgeo> I mean, except for bounds on how much memory is accessible, but that's like any real computer
08:06:43 <oerjan> hm
08:06:59 <Sgeo> Well, it has non-fixed-sze lists, loops, if statements, etc.
08:07:36 <Sgeo> somelist += [morestuff]; probably works in the crappy way it looks like, but it still works
08:09:14 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Is it just me, or does this require being able to see the stack prior to the most recent function call?
08:09:32 <oerjan> iiuc you need to be able to follow pointers into the stack to move content to the heap
08:09:47 <oerjan> although you don't need to know the stack format
08:10:13 <Sgeo> LSL doesn't have pointers..
08:10:24 <oerjan> bit of a problem right there
08:10:38 <oerjan> what about mutable lists?
08:10:40 <Sgeo> Hmm, if I replace function calls with gotos, maybe I could deal with it that way
08:10:53 <Sgeo> oerjan, does something += [stuff] count as mutable?
08:11:09 <Sgeo> We have mutable triplets and quadruplets of floats! (Useless)
08:12:11 <Sgeo> There is also a goto. It's a bit broken.
08:12:42 <oerjan> oh hm i think the pointer following is essentially a GC
08:13:05 <Sgeo> I was thinking I'd just store all the data and scope stuff in a few globally accessible lists
08:13:16 <Sgeo> And supply functions to get to those
08:13:25 <oerjan> make your own heap, check
08:13:37 <Lymia> Isn't Java technically Turing Complete even though C++, etc arn't?
08:14:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: so lists are immutable then?
08:14:10 <Sgeo> Yes
08:14:14 <Sgeo> As far as I can tell
08:14:32 <oerjan> oh well
08:15:00 <oerjan> Lymia: could well be, C/C++ are non-TC for rather stupid pointer-size reasons
08:15:15 <Sgeo> Do I actually need a heap, can I just have a stack?
08:15:22 <Lymia> oerjan, can anything that low level be TC?
08:15:33 * oerjan swats Lymia -----###
08:16:25 <oerjan> have you even _looked_ at some of the formalisms that _are_ TC? :D
08:17:17 <monqy> mmmm
08:17:23 <oerjan> SUBLEQ is TC, and far lower level than C. it achieves this by simply not having stupid size bounds on its cell contents.
08:17:35 <monqy> I was about to mention subleq too
08:17:44 <Lymia> I see.
08:18:02 <monqy> is bct low-level at all?
08:18:04 <oerjan> (i mention SUBLEQ because it's also essentially interchangeable int/pointer based)
08:18:27 <oerjan> monqy: i'd say so
08:18:39 <oerjan> horribly few abstractions there...
08:19:41 <Sgeo> I should really, really figure out why I'm under the impression that my language doesn't need a heap
08:20:09 <monqy> under an impression and you don't know why? ouch
08:20:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: i am pretty sure i've read several times that general functional programming requires memory layouts which support GC
08:20:47 <oerjan> (basically once you start throwing higher-order functions around, it becomes frequently impossible to know object lifetimes statically)
08:20:47 <Sgeo> oerjan, is that in relation to my heap issue?
08:21:14 <Sgeo> I think my confusion is because I wasn't sure that I'd be GCing anything
08:21:18 <Sgeo> Or that I'd... hmm
08:21:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: yeah. unless you have a very controllable stack (which means you can essentially _use_ it as a heap)
08:21:54 <Sgeo> I should really read up on this
08:22:24 <Sgeo> I'm not even sure why it's called a stack. The way I'm imagining it, it would be a stack, but that's only because of nested... scope.. ish
08:22:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: there have been experiments on using so-called region inference to determine object lifetime in ML variants to avoid heap. however it's an advanced algorithm to achieve _and_ you sometimes need parts to be in a GC-able heap anyway.)
08:22:35 <oerjan> *-)
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08:23:28 <monqy> Sgeo: what
08:24:14 <monqy> isn't it because you traditionally store call frames in a stack
08:24:33 <monqy> and "stack variables", or whatever they're called, go in the call frames
08:24:38 <Sgeo> Oh
08:24:40 <monqy> pardon me if I'm nonsense
08:24:53 <oerjan> sounds reasonable to me
08:25:06 <Sgeo> That makes sense
08:25:20 <oerjan> scheme, because of call/cc, sometimes needs to put call frames on the heap
08:25:43 <Sgeo> Wouldn't a CPS thing not have call frames as such?
08:25:51 <Sgeo> Or am I now misunderstanding "call frame"
08:26:01 <Lymia> I think it still would.
08:26:05 <oerjan> it would have closures instead, which essentially contained the same information
08:26:28 <Lymia> def a(v0,v1,continuation): continuation(v0); continuation(v1)
08:26:49 <oerjan> Lymia: some dead code at the end there
08:27:19 <Lymia> I mean in CPS, that is
08:27:32 <oerjan> Lymia: still dead code
08:27:38 <Lymia> Ah.
08:27:45 <oerjan> continuations not returning is pretty much their _definition_
08:27:46 <Lymia> Does CPS not allow continuations that return?
08:27:50 <Lymia> I see.
08:27:52 <monqy> hehehehh
08:28:09 <monqy> if you want it to "return", give it a continuation to which to return
08:28:16 <oerjan> yeah
08:28:20 <Lymia> :)
08:29:33 <oerjan> take a look at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OriginalIoLanguage
08:30:55 <oerjan> argh the amalthea page is gone :(
08:32:01 <oerjan> ooh someone's made a new implementation in haskell
08:32:19 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Ganymede/0.0.0.5/Ganymede.cabal
08:38:28 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> (?i)yo dawg, I heard you like (.*?)(e?s)? so we put a \1 in your .*? so you can .*? while you .*?[.!]?
08:38:58 <oerjan> i think that e? is a bit tricky since you sometimes want it captured and sometimes not
08:39:51 <oerjan> 20:13:57 <pikhq_> Yo dawg, I heard you like ZALGO HE WHO WAITS BEHIND THE WALL!!!
08:39:54 <oerjan> 20:14:05 <pikhq_> </memutation>
08:40:06 <oerjan> insufficient unicode
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09:32:16 <Lymia> So.
09:32:23 <Lymia> We have a person with a script that does this: \o/
09:32:24 <myndzi> |
09:32:24 <myndzi> |\
09:32:29 <Lymia> I now have a quesion.
09:32:31 <Lymia> question*
09:32:37 <Lymia> What percentage of golfed perl code triggers that?
09:34:53 <oerjan> there was some triggering during the recent deadfish golfing
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10:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Blancmange.
10:23:53 <Slereah_> Are we gonna do a Monty Python bit?
10:26:31 <oerjan> A Monty Python once bit my sister
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10:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Who needs Monty Python when we have oerjan.
10:28:34 <oerjan> INDEED
10:29:00 <oerjan> What have Monty Python ever done for us?
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10:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> NOTHING
10:58:08 <Sgeo> Ooooooooh http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/special/educational.html
10:58:30 <Sgeo> <3
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11:20:12 <Sgeo> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2391.html how I feel about my project
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11:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, suggest you flip a coin.
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11:54:10 <oerjan> > 2281-324
11:54:11 <lambdabot> 1957
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12:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I just heard that the Norwegian for 'kth' sounds like the Norwegian for 'horny'.
12:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> How did you ever learn maths over the giggles.
12:28:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe they used "nth" instead of "kth"?
12:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, doing that is almost certainly more trouble than it's worth.
12:29:40 <Vorpal> bbl
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13:04:41 <Sgeo> !@#$ how did I miss this email? https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/secondlifescripters/2011-June/006229.html
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13:23:31 <Sgeo> Actually, I don't think that's split properly
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14:17:38 <Sgeo> Why is Twittch in my feeds?
14:17:42 <Sgeo> It's a stupid comic
14:17:57 <Sgeo> I think maybe I saw one in a presentation somewhere
14:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Who knows.
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14:54:48 <CakeProphet> Just got back from a job interview at Wal-Mart. I think I give them a pretty impression. Mainly because I'm not a meth addict.
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15:09:28 <CakeProphet> lol pretty impression
15:09:33 <CakeProphet> yes, I was very cute.
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15:18:26 <olsner> which you wouldn't have been if you were a meth addict
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15:40:59 <Sgeo> I'm all for going against the mainstream, but that should NOT be a language's main pitch
15:41:02 <Sgeo> http://www.eiffel.com/general/awareness/try_eiffel.html
15:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Eiffel: the language of hipsters.
15:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Named, of course, after the tower in the city of hipsters.
15:41:58 <Patashu> how is eiffel? I heard it had more sensical types than java
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15:53:55 <Sgeo> I can't helped but be overwhelmed by the buzz buzz buzz BS on the Eiffel site
15:54:02 <Sgeo> And yet, I know I'm going to look into it
15:54:06 <Sgeo> Again
15:55:36 <olsner> wow, that site ... does not look like the site of anything good
15:56:41 <Patashu> those developers have the most :colbert: expression
15:57:07 <Patashu> http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif
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16:04:13 <CakeProphet> Completely object-oriented approach. Eiffel is a full-fledged application of object technology, not a "hybrid" of O-O and traditional concepts.
16:04:16 <CakeProphet> yeah, no thanks.
16:05:04 <CakeProphet> we wouldn't want those nasty functions and top-level non-object things messing up our "object technology."
16:07:34 <CakeProphet> The name of the class is HELLO. Any class may contain "features"; HELLO has just one, called make. The create clause indicates that make is a "creation procedure", that is to say an operation to be executed at class instantiation time. The class could have any number of creation procedures.
16:07:42 <CakeProphet> cool, so now I get to memorize non-standard constructor names.
16:12:09 <CakeProphet> In modeling terms, client roughly represents the relation "has" and heir roughly represents "is". For example we may use Eiffel classes to model a certain system and express that every child has a birth date (client relation) and is a person (inheritance).
16:12:18 <CakeProphet> "roughly" as in "exactly the same thing"
16:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ...oh god
16:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I've run out of Futurama.
16:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, no, there's a season 6.
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16:56:20 <ais523> bleh, Slashdot is down, except for the homepage
16:56:27 <ais523> when logged in, at least
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18:19:21 <oerjan> 08:35:06 <Sgeo> I can't helped but be overwhelmed by the buzz buzz buzz BS on the Eiffel site
18:19:25 <oerjan> 08:35:13 <Sgeo> And yet, I know I'm going to look into it
18:19:36 <oerjan> and thus we realized that Sgeo is a moth
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19:05:01 <oklopol> elliott i need you
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19:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "people need to stop miss-using the concept of double standard.
19:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Boys and girls are different. Treating them differently is NOT a double standard." — Reddit commentor.
19:33:03 <oklopol> i'm sure everyone has a fascinating opinion on this
19:33:10 <oklopol> let's hear them ppl?
19:33:43 <oklopol> i ate too much cheese
19:33:57 <olsner> I did *not* eat too much cheese
19:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you should probably talk to Gregor about that.
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19:45:40 <oklopol> house is... operating on himself
19:46:13 <oklopol> i've been waiting for this for years
19:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Houses all the way down.
19:52:54 <oklopol> the new season is prolly the best sofar
19:53:15 <oklopol> then again that's how series always work
20:00:06 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
20:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, yes, of course.
20:14:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Nobody sane is arguing for complete and utter ignorance of real distinctions.
20:15:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Just calling out real double standards that exist in our culture.
20:16:19 <oklopol> pikhq: i don't doubt that everyone here (except me) has a very nice and neat opinion. i'm just currently extremely bored with this topic family.
20:16:34 <oklopol> so any opinion irks me to some extent.
20:16:36 <oklopol> well not really
20:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I wasn't really looking for opinions beyond "what an idiot".
20:17:23 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well i'm scared easily!
20:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, don't look behind you, then.
20:18:01 <oklopol> please don't do that :D
20:18:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That person is a moron.
20:18:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Happy?
20:18:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, yep.
20:18:18 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover is always happy
20:18:30 <oklopol> well, content enough.
20:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, except for when sshc is around.
20:18:50 <oklopol> i'm not that familiar with sshc
20:18:57 <oklopol> where the fuck is that elliott BITCH
20:19:05 * oklopol tries new approach
20:19:23 <oklopol> called the classic oklopol approach
20:21:46 <pikhq> Wow. E17 is still in development? I think it's trying to beat DNF or something.
20:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> E17?
20:23:49 <pikhq> Enlightenment, version 17.
20:24:06 <pikhq> Began development in 2000.
20:24:12 <pikhq> Still not released.
20:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as bad as Project Xanadu.
20:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> That's older than my parents.
20:25:33 <pikhq> Though at least it's not complete vaporware; SVN snapshots are readily available...
20:25:47 <pikhq> Along the way, it's gotten severe feature-creep.
20:26:14 <pikhq> Last I checked, it managed to turn into a full DE with its own widget library.
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21:13:44 <zzo38> What is a Nexuiz controversy? (It is mentioned in the logs, but now I don't know a lot about it)
21:17:58 <zzo38> Yesterday I quit when sleeping, after coppro wrote "[touch screens] have a wider range of input than a mouse [...]" and no answer yet. I can say, yes it may have sometimesm multitouch (and maybe even pressure-sensitive), but I think in most cases that would not be so useful (there are cases where it helps).
21:18:39 <oklopol> i have a LOT of fingers so it's nice to be able to use them all.
21:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> How many fingers do you have oko.
21:19:02 <zzo38> oklopol: Ten? Or more?
21:19:10 <oklopol> dude i don't spend my days counting fingers
21:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> But what if you want to count things.
21:19:30 <oklopol> but let's just say one digit is not enough to count my digits.
21:20:15 <zzo38> How much total do you think you get if you multiply together the number of fingers on each person's left hand in the world?
21:20:19 <olsner> ... it is rumored that none have yet seen all of any oklo's fingers
21:20:36 <oklopol> ^
21:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The number of oko's fingers is not computable.
21:21:09 <olsner> nor is it comprehensible
21:21:12 <zzo38> With keyboard/mouse, you can do most things with keyboard (especially if you can type fast), and even push multiple keys at once, and you can have some things that can be operated by keyboard or mouse, depending on what you are doing; you can use multiple mouse buttons (and even hover), and you can use keys and mouse at same time
21:21:14 <oklopol> zzo38: good one lololol
21:21:19 <oklopol> i get it
21:21:36 <zzo38> oklopol: You get what?
21:22:32 <oklopol> well you know that 0 joke
21:22:51 <oklopol> it was funny because it was true
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21:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Where is elliott.
21:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps he has been kidnapped by aliens.
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21:33:01 <zzo38> Perhaps elliott was kidnapped by elliott.
21:36:35 <olsner> i.e. by aliens
21:37:39 <zzo38> Are you sure?
21:37:56 <olsner> no
21:38:01 <zzo38> Good.
21:38:12 <olsner> the aliens don't want us to know
21:38:21 <zzo38> That isn't the reason.
21:43:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The reason is that I am an alien and my alien intel tells me that he was kidnapped by werewolves.
21:55:42 <zzo38> I don't think so. I think elliott was kidnapped by elliott.
21:57:09 * Phantom_Hoover checks the phase of the moon.
21:57:22 <olsner> maybe elliott is a werewolf hivemind that staged its own kidnapping
21:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's very slightly past new.
21:57:42 <Phantom_Hoover> He's clearly a cowerewolf.
21:58:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Or wait, the phase is shifted by pi, so he's a -werewolf.
22:00:09 <oerjan> those pesky antiwerewolves
22:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as bad as the tanwerewolves.
22:01:11 <oerjan> wat
22:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> They go from normal to infinitely wolfy as the moon approaches the first quarter, then turn infinitely antiwolfy and increase to normality.
22:04:09 <oerjan> a cosecantwolf otoh is a very pathetic creature.
22:04:57 <oerjan> *-were-
22:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> It's nothing compared to the 1/werewolf.
22:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Alpha's alternate form for cosec: -(2 sin(x))/(cos(2 x)-1)
22:08:21 <oerjan> if you bite a cowerewolf, it turns permanently into a cohuman
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22:11:28 <CakeProphet> anyone not have a Dropbox account and want one?
22:15:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't have a Dropbox account and I want one inasmuch as I have no reason not to want one.
22:34:38 <zzo38> I don't need one
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22:46:42 <Sgeo> <3 /r/askscience
22:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Finally, something Sgeo said that I can agree with.
22:55:02 <CakeProphet> is that kind of like /r/ on 4chan?
22:55:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ...no.
22:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a subreddit.
22:55:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Dedicated to questions about science.
22:56:31 <pikhq> CakeProphet: All subreddits are of form www.reddit.com/r/subreddit
22:57:22 <CakeProphet> ah okay.
22:57:44 <CakeProphet> so there's no porn involved? Suddenly I lost interest.
22:58:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, FWIW, conservation laws arise from fundamental symmetries of models, so I am highly suspect of RobotRollCall's claim.
22:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> *suspicious
22:58:56 <Sgeo> I can't trust RobotRollCall?
22:58:58 * Sgeo has a sad
22:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, she's definitely been wrong at least once before, but that was on a rather minor point.
23:01:28 * Sgeo wikipedias time-translation symmetry
23:01:30 <CakeProphet> son, I am disappoint.
23:03:11 * Sgeo still doesn't understand
23:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't understand Noether's whole symmetry stuff, although it's firmly on my list of Science I Need To Understand Some Day.
23:05:18 <Sgeo> I don't know whether to tell RRC that I still don't understand, or just wikipedia
23:06:28 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy#Noether.27s_theorem
23:06:50 -!- elliott_ has joined.
23:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hello elliott_ what is it like being a -werewolf.
23:07:21 <elliott_> what
23:08:12 <zzo38> elliott_: Read the logs if you wonder what these things means please
23:08:25 <elliott_> 01:13:01: <Sgeo> Why can't I do first-class continuations without CPS?
23:08:25 <elliott_> 01:22:33: <Sgeo> LSL does, in fact, have a goto
23:08:25 <elliott_> 01:22:38: <Sgeo> This would have been good to remember.
23:08:27 <elliott_> uhh
23:08:30 <elliott_> fail
23:09:31 <Sgeo> elliott_, it was just a matter of having more options and not forgetting about them. I had to vaguely wonder if goto was useful, but since I didn't remember that they were present, that option, which I now don't consider likely to be useful, was closed off to me.
23:09:44 <CakeProphet> zzo38: he'll work his way down I'm sure. :)
23:17:30 <wareya> If you take the sine harmonics that make up a triangle wave, and do them with square waves instead of sine waves
23:17:37 <wareya> woah wrong window
23:18:03 <wareya> why am I even in here anymore
23:18:04 -!- wareya has left.
23:18:29 <CakeProphet> the.... sine harmonics? oh... right.
23:21:19 <CakeProphet> I'm pretty sure if you took the harmonics of a triangle wave and turned them into square waves you would end up with a really awful tone..
23:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Triangle wavewerewolf.
23:21:52 <CakeProphet> but hey, it would be spectrally dense. Which is useful.
23:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly wareya left to avoid this biting criticism.
23:26:30 <oerjan> um would it actually?
23:27:10 <CakeProphet> well, it depends on what he meant by "do them with square waves"
23:27:41 <oerjan> i assumed he meant replacing every sine component with a square component of the same frequency
23:28:03 <CakeProphet> but I assume he means substitute the sine component with a square wave in time domain. A triangle wave has all odd harmonics that roll off as the multiple increases. Square wave also has odd harmonics but with less rolloff
23:28:36 <oerjan> yes, so wouldn't the combination have m*n harmonics for m, n odd
23:28:49 <CakeProphet> yes.
23:29:29 <CakeProphet> each odd harmonic would be transformed into all of the odd multiples of itself.
23:29:39 <CakeProphet> which, I'm guessing, has a very noisy quality to it overall.
23:30:12 <CakeProphet> oerjan: well, there might be so overlap on the m*n actually.
23:30:15 <CakeProphet> *some
23:30:49 <CakeProphet> :t odd
23:30:49 <oerjan> um yes but you still get only odd ones
23:30:49 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> Bool
23:31:56 <CakeProphet> oerjan: hmm... well, do you? You're taking odd multiples of each odd triangle harmonic. So it would be "shifted" in relation to the odd harmonics of the original triangle wave. Is that still "all odd harmonics" then?
23:32:28 <CakeProphet> ..forgive me if that's a dumb question. :P
23:32:54 <CakeProphet> :t (>>=)
23:32:55 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
23:32:55 <oerjan> um shifting doesn't change the frequency
23:33:21 <oerjan> or erm
23:33:33 <oerjan> multiples of odd numbers are odd
23:33:42 <CakeProphet> ah, right.
23:33:54 <CakeProphet> so basically you would get.... a really loud square wave I think?
23:33:54 <oerjan> *products
23:34:00 <CakeProphet> or pseudo-square wave.
23:34:01 <oerjan> i dunno
23:36:41 <CakeProphet> > odds >>= (\x -> foldl1 (*) (repeat x) (take 5 odds) where odds = filter odd [1..]
23:36:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
23:37:03 <CakeProphet> > let odds = filter odd [1..] in odds >>= (\x -> foldl1 (*) (repeat x) (take 5 odds)
23:37:04 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:37:07 <CakeProphet> lol.
23:37:16 <CakeProphet> I should never try to program Haskell on the fly.
23:37:22 <CakeProphet> well, right now anyways.
23:37:30 <oerjan> missing )
23:37:41 <CakeProphet> > let odds = filter odd [1..] in odds >>= (\x -> foldl1 (*) (repeat x) (take 5 odds))
23:37:42 <oerjan> also, odds = [1,3 ..]
23:37:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral ([a] -> [b]))
23:37:42 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `...
23:37:48 <CakeProphet> oerjan: ah yes.
23:38:03 <CakeProphet> bleh, I need to go.
23:38:18 <CakeProphet> I WILL INVESTIGATE THIS FURTHER WHEN I HAVE MADE A SIGNAL PROCESSING LIBRARY IN HASKELL.
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23:38:39 <elliott_> WAREYA HAS RETURNED TO STAND TRIAL
23:40:29 <CakeProphet> wareya: so what kind of waveform do you get when you substitute the harmonics of a triangle wave with all of its odd harmonics (a.k.a. turn the sine wave into a square wave)
23:41:36 <CakeProphet> I would think it's an amplified triangle-like or square-like wave, since it still has odd components.
23:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Hungary, I have decided, is unfairly cool.
23:42:10 <wareya> the same kind of waveform as when you do the other way around, with substituting the harmonics that make up a square wave with triangles
23:43:24 <zzo38> Try it, see what happen, then!!
23:43:41 <zzo38> Make both the mathematical formulas, the graph, and the sound.
23:46:15 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: wat.
23:47:54 <CakeProphet> wareya: it would have a kind of reverse roll-off effect, where higher harmonics are louder than the lower onces.
23:49:09 <wareya> Actually, many of the higher ones end up canceling eachother out
23:49:50 <CakeProphet> how does that happen?
23:50:19 <wareya> they're out of phase
23:50:42 <CakeProphet> aaah.
23:52:21 <CakeProphet> well, now that my curiosity is abated. I must go now. Bye.
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