00:00:08 -- | A variant of '<*>' with the arguments reversed. 00:00:09 (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 00:00:09 elliott: what? that would be useless 00:00:11 so.... 4hu is -4? 00:00:19 oerjan: well it's an aesthetic thing... 00:00:30 CakeProphet: no, luhu is -4 00:00:38 oh 00:00:48 > [1,2] <**> [(+5), (+10)] 00:00:48 [6,11,7,12] 00:01:03 > flip (<*>) [1,2] [(+5), (+10)] 00:01:04 [6,7,11,12] 00:01:11 elliott: nope i was right :) 00:01:25 ah ookay, because with liftA2 or whatever you're doing when you call <**>, you're chaining the two monads together with >> 00:02:02 ...somewhere. 00:02:37 oerjan: um i am quoting from the code itself here 00:02:44 -- | A variant of '<*>' with the arguments reversed. 00:02:44 (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 00:02:44 (<**>) = liftA2 (flip ($)) 00:02:51 crock of shit documentation 00:02:54 CakeProphet: well another way to say it, is x <**> f = flip ($) <$> x <*> f 00:03:11 oerjan: oh i think it means the arguments to the _function_ 00:03:11 right 00:03:40 elliott: yeah it also reverses the intuitive execution order, which is why <**> is useful here... 00:03:59 oerjan: I was basically forgetting that, since Parsecs matching semantics are carried through >>=, when you use things like applicative functions you're still chaining together the parsers. I'm not entirely sure what I thought was going on before. 00:06:04 CakeProphet: well this is sort of because by convention when you make monads into applicatives you let <*> have a left-to-right execution order 00:06:24 it occurs to me that would be an entirely correct Applicative instance to do it reversely, actually. 00:06:37 in fact you could make a newtype for it, does it exist? 00:06:53 ?hoogle liftM3 00:06:53 Control.Monad liftM3 :: Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> a3 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m a3 -> m r 00:06:54 ?hoogle liftA3 00:06:55 Control.Applicative liftA3 :: Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> d) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> f d 00:08:11 i don't find it, but it would be like 00:08:22 okay with fundeps, saying a -> b is basically saying that a decides what b is yes? 00:08:29 "If the function returns, this is an expression, otherwise it is a statement." 00:08:33 insert vomiting 00:09:01 I'm not entirely sure what that DOES, but I think I understand the /concept/ 00:09:15 elliott: lol. if a function doesn't return, it's probably not a function. 00:09:41 instance Applicative a => Applicative (Reverse a) where pure x = Reverse (pure x); (Reverse f <*> Reverse x) = Reverse (x <**> f) 00:09:43 elliott: from what is that 00:09:46 monqy: [[SyL]] 00:09:47 (I'm vomiting too) 00:10:01 strapping young lad? 00:10:03 newtype Reverse x = Reverse x 00:10:13 erm 00:10:17 monqy: on the esowiki 00:10:23 * elliott complains on the talk page 00:10:28 newtype Reverse a x = Reverse (a x) 00:11:19 CakeProphet: ^ i believe that would give you a modified Applicative which did all execution chaining in the opposite direction 00:11:31 but still fulfilled all the laws (i assume) 00:12:15 so is this language's special thing purely based on what names it uses for things 00:12:32 pardon my highly technial terminology 00:12:59 monqy: well it's kind of neat to have every program be fully pronouncable 00:13:17 if you remove all the whitespace you can have, like, full function definitions be "words" 00:13:19 which is nice aesthetically 00:13:23 but yes the semantics are nothing special 00:13:40 i'm just implementing it because i'm bored 00:14:10 it's not precisely the first pronunciation-based language 00:14:16 implement speech to text for it 00:14:20 (Ook!) 00:14:35 oerjan: true, but that's not really the same thing :P 00:14:50 where by speech to text I mean speech to program 00:15:22 I confess that the main reason I'm implementing it is because I can call the implementation sylladex 00:15:32 :( 00:15:52 monqy is disappointed in my shallow reference-based reasons for implementing languages. 00:15:58 always 00:18:33 -!- calamari has joined. 00:18:49 maharba is a bad person 00:20:15 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 00:20:18 you should see his evil twin mwahaharba 00:21:37 elliott: were there any remaining functions to prettify? 00:22:50 oerjan: not yet, but there will be as soon as maharba replies :D 00:36:31 does anyone know of a hash function that optimises for the size of the resulting hash? 00:36:35 like crc but less... useless 00:36:38 like 00:36:41 a dynamic-length hash i guess... 00:36:50 right now I'm imagining maharba meant "if the function terminates, it is an expression; otherwise, it is a statement". makes everything better. 00:36:50 hmm i'm not thinking right 00:36:58 monqy: xD 00:37:04 beautiful 00:43:38 ais523 00:43:38 it's amazing how inconsistent Crawl's interface actually is, it's much worse than NetHack's 00:43:39 -- http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html 00:43:43 wisdom 00:44:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 00:45:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:45:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 00:45:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:50:10 ?pl \x -> "gah" ++ [x] 00:50:10 ("gah" ++) . return 00:51:12 elliott: cheating. 00:51:36 pure is shorter than return... 00:51:48 oerjan: xD 00:52:06 oerjan: but import Control.Applicative is not shorter than an empty string. 00:52:36 CakeProphet: i was assuming he had it imported already 00:53:17 :t optional 00:53:18 forall (f :: * -> *) a. (Alternative f) => f a -> f (Maybe a) 00:53:39 > optional [1] 00:53:40 [Just 1,Nothing] 00:53:55 however if n*2 > 26 where n is the number of uses of return, then you will save bytes overall. 00:54:19 assuming you don't already have Control.Applicative imported, which you probably do. :P 00:55:03 this isn't about golfing :P 00:55:14 IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT GOLFING. 00:55:15 > reverse.(:"hag")$'i' 00:55:16 "gahi" 00:55:25 SAYS YOU 00:55:54 grossly, SyL is not whitespace-irrelevant 00:56:08 lack of unambiguous number terminators :( 00:56:11 angry square mouth man is angry that you never use him and always use his pure counterpart (:[]) 00:56:51 @hoogle x -> f x 00:56:51 Data.Generics.Aliases unGM :: GenericM' m -> a -> m a 00:56:51 Prelude return :: Monad m => a -> m a 00:56:51 Control.Monad return :: Monad m => a -> m a 00:57:20 hm... 00:57:28 @hoogle a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i -> j -> k -> l -> m 00:57:43 thread killed 00:58:02 > (<$"a") 1 00:58:03 [1] 00:58:14 CakeProphet: what 00:58:34 monqy: I don't know, ask lambdabot. 00:58:43 no I mean 00:58:45 why would you do that 00:58:47 or angry square mouth man, depending on what you're referring to. 00:58:55 ???? 00:59:22 monqy: why do we do anything? why can I answer questions with more vague generic questions that apply to any situation? 00:59:23 SHUT UP STUPID FLY 00:59:40 why would you search for that function 00:59:45 to find it. 00:59:50 I mean 00:59:51 it's a quest. 00:59:54 OF KNOWLEDGE 01:00:05 it's pretty obvious that it doesn't exist 01:00:08 if you think about it 01:00:17 also what's this about (: []) 01:00:17 ...why? 01:00:24 it does exist obviously 01:00:27 oh wait 01:00:29 no it doesn't 01:00:32 i mean, apart from nudefined 01:00:41 because it returns a polymorphic parameter it isn't given 01:01:08 :t zipWith13 01:01:09 Not in scope: `zipWith13' 01:01:12 :t zipWith9 01:01:12 Not in scope: `zipWith9' 01:01:15 :t zipWith5 01:01:15 forall a b c d e f. (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [e] -> [f] 01:01:31 oerjan: ban maharaba plz he is crime of no replying 01:01:40 now why does zipWith5 even exist... 01:01:55 because sometimes you've got to zip 5 lists, I mean come on. 01:02:16 but never 9 01:02:17 NEVER 01:02:29 :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,) 01:02:29 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m. a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i -> j -> k -> l -> m -> (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m) 01:02:45 define tuples in template haskell, make generic zipwith 01:02:57 :t zap 01:02:57 oerjan for the win. 01:02:57 Not in scope: `zap' 01:03:00 monqy: there's that proposal for hlists as tuples 01:03:07 (a,b,c) == a :- b :- c :- HNil or whatever 01:03:08 :t zapp 01:03:09 Not in scope: `zapp' 01:03:14 which I guess you define like 01:03:18 hm didn't it get added recently 01:03:30 @hoogle [a -> b] -> [a] -> [b] 01:03:30 Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 01:03:30 Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 01:03:30 Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 01:03:38 hmm wait 01:03:41 I could use that in Shiro... 01:04:26 (zapp? being the equivalent of ap / <*> for zipping, naturally) 01:05:02 data CZ = CZ 01:05:02 data CS r = (:-) {-# UNPACK #-} !Value {-# UNPACK #-} !r 01:05:04 wonder if that would work 01:05:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:05:13 i.e. two-dimensional is CS (CS CZ) 01:06:29 i'm pretty sure unpacking / unboxing only works with fields of fixed size, possibly even fixed type 01:07:01 oerjan: hmm, right 01:07:04 :t ((,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,)) 01:07:05 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1 i1 j1 k1 l1 m1 a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2 i2 j2 k2 l2 m2 a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3 i3 j3 k3 l3 m3 a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4 i4 j4 k4 l4 m4 a5 b5 c5 01:07:05 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5 i5 j5 k5 l5 m5 a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6 i6 j6 k6 l6 m6 a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7 i7 j7 k7 l7 m7 a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8 i8 j8 k8 l8 m8 a9 b9 c9 d9 e9 f9 g9 h9 i9 j9 k9 l9 m9 a10 b10 c10 01:07:05 d10 e10 f10 g10 h10 i10 j10 k10 l10 m10 a11 b11 c11 d11 e11 f11 g11 h11 i11 j11 k11 l11 m11 a12 b12 c12 d12 e12 f12 g12 h12 i12 j12 k12 l12 m12. (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i -> j -> k - 01:07:05 > l -> m -> (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m), a1 -> b1 -> c1 -> d1 -> e1 -> f1 -> g1 -> h1 -> i1 -> j1 -> k1 -> l1 -> m1 -> (a1, b1, c1, d1, e1, f1, g1, h1, i1, j1, k1, l1, m1), a2 -> b2 -> 01:07:05 c2 -> d2 -> e2 -> f2 -> g2 -> h2 -> i2 -> j2 -> k2 -> l2 -> m2 -> (a2, b2, c2, d2, e2, f2, g2, h2, i2, j2, k2, l2, m2), a3 -> b3 -> c3 -> d3 -> e3 -> f3 -> g3 -> h3 -> i3 -> j3 -> k3 -> l3 -> m3 -> ( 01:07:07 [7 @more lines] 01:07:10 ?more 01:07:10 a3, b3, c3, d3, e3, f3, g3, h3, i3, j3, k3, l3, m3), a4 -> b4 -> c4 -> d4 -> e4 -> f4 -> g4 -> h4 -> i4 -> j4 -> k4 -> l4 -> m4 -> (a4, b4, c4, d4, e4, f4, g4, h4, i4, j4, k4, l4, m4), a5 -> b5 -> 01:07:11 @more 01:07:11 c5 -> d5 -> e5 -> f5 -> g5 -> h5 -> i5 -> j5 -> k5 -> l5 -> m5 -> (a5, b5, c5, d5, e5, f5, g5, h5, i5, j5, k5, l5, m5), a6 -> b6 -> c6 -> d6 -> e6 -> f6 -> g6 -> h6 -> i6 -> j6 -> k6 -> l6 -> m6 -> ( 01:07:12 ?more 01:07:13 ?more 01:07:13 a6, b6, c6, d6, e6, f6, g6, h6, i6, j6, k6, l6, m6), a7 -> b7 -> c7 -> d7 -> e7 -> f7 -> g7 -> h7 -> i7 -> j7 -> k7 -> l7 -> m7 -> (a7, b7, c7, d7, e7, f7, g7, h7, i7, j7, k7, l7, m7), a8 -> b8 -> 01:07:13 ?more 01:07:14 ?more 01:07:15 ?more 01:07:15 c8 -> d8 -> e8 -> f8 -> g8 -> h8 -> i8 -> j8 -> k8 -> l8 -> m8 -> (a8, b8, c8, d8, e8, f8, g8, h8, i8, j8, k8, l8, m8), a9 -> b9 -> c9 -> d9 -> e9 -> f9 -> g9 -> h9 -> i9 -> j9 -> k9 -> l9 -> m9 -> ( 01:07:17 a9, b9, c9, d9, e9, f9, g9, h9, i9, j9, k9, l9, m9), a10 -> b10 -> c10 -> d10 -> e10 -> f10 -> g10 -> h10 -> i10 -> j10 -> k10 -> l10 -> m10 -> (a10, b10, c10, d10, e10, f10, g10, h10, i10, j10, k10, 01:07:19 l10, m10), a11 -> b11 -> c11 -> d11 -> e11 -> f11 -> g11 -> h11 -> i11 -> j11 -> k11 -> l11 -> m11 -> (a11, b11, c11, d11, e11, f11, g11, h11, i11, j11, k11, l11, m11), a12 -> b12 -> c12 -> d12 -> 01:07:21 e12 -> f12 -> g12 -> h12 -> i12 -> j12 -> k12 -> l12 -> m12 -> (a12, b12, c12, d12, e12, f12, g12, h12, i12, j12, k12, l12, m12)) 01:07:23 yea verily this is a good use of the channel 01:07:33 :t (((,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,)),((,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,)),((,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,, 01:07:34 ,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,)),((,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,)),((,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,, 01:07:34 parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 01:07:35 ,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,),(,,,,,,,,,,,,))) 01:07:38 lol. 01:07:39 `-` 01:07:41 No output. 01:07:55 :t (.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................) 01:07:57 Not in scope: 01:07:57 `................................................................................................................................................................................................ 01:07:57 ....................................................................................................................................................................................................... 01:07:57 ......................' 01:08:02 :( 01:08:04 good job 01:08:15 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:08:16 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1 i1 j1 k1 l1 m1 a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2 i2 j2 k2 l2 m2 a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3 i3 j3 k3 l3 m3 a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4 i4 j4 k4 l4 m4 a5 b5 c5 01:08:16 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5 i5 j5 k5 l5 m5 a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6 i6 j6 k6 l6 m6 a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7 i7 j7 k7 l7 m7 a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8 i8 j8 k8 l8 m8 a9 b9 c9 d9 e9 f9 g9 h9 i9 j9 k9 l9 m9 a10 b10 c10 01:08:16 d10 e10 f10 g10 h10 i10 j10 k10 l10 m10 a11 b11 c11 d11 e11 f11 g11 h11 i11 j11 k11 l11 m11. (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i -> j -> k -> l -> m -> (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m), 01:08:16 a1 -> b1 -> c1 -> d1 -> e1 -> f1 -> g1 -> h1 -> i1 -> j1 -> k1 -> l1 -> m1 -> (a1, b1, c1, d1, e1, f1, g1, h1, i1, j1, k1, l1, m1), a2 -> b2 -> c2 -> d2 -> e2 -> f2 -> g2 -> h2 -> i2 -> j2 -> k2 -> 01:08:16 l2 -> m2 -> (a2, b2, c2, d2, e2, f2, g2, h2, i2, j2, k2, l2, m2), a3 -> b3 -> c3 -> d3 -> e3 -> f3 -> g3 -> h3 -> i3 -> j3 -> k3 -> l3 -> m3 -> (a3, b3, c3, d3, e3, f3, g3, h3, i3, j3, k3, l3, m3), 01:08:18 [6 @more lines] 01:08:25 :t (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) 01:08:26 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62 01:08:26 t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109 01:08:26 t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148 01:08:26 t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187 01:08:28 t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226 01:08:30 [16 @more lines] 01:08:42 woohoo 01:09:08 needs moar zipWith 01:09:14 eek ghc defines that many? 01:09:17 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:09:20 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62 01:09:20 t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109 01:09:20 t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148 01:09:20 t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187 01:09:20 t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226 01:09:22 [379 @more lines] 01:09:28 (i think the haskell report only requires up to 15 or something) 01:09:29 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:09:34 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62 01:09:34 t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109 01:09:34 t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148 01:09:34 t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187 01:09:34 t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226 01:09:36 [889 @more lines] 01:09:39 ...... 01:09:44 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:09:52 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62 01:09:52 t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109 01:09:52 t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148 01:09:52 t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187 01:09:52 t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226 01:09:54 why would you do this 01:09:54 [1569 @more lines] 01:10:04 OK 01:10:06 I'll take it to PM~ 01:10:07 >:3 01:10:19 yes we need no filthy lambdabotsex here in public 01:10:21 get a room 01:10:46 OR NOT 01:10:48 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:10:49 parse error on input `in' 01:10:51 :< 01:10:59 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:11:00 A 71-tuple is too large for GHC 01:11:01 (max size is 62) 01:11:01 Workaround: use nested tuples or define a data type 01:11:04 :< 01:11:12 Disappointing. 01:11:15 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:11:16 A 70-tuple is too large for GHC 01:11:17 (max size is 62) 01:11:17 Workaround: use nested tuples or define a data type 01:11:24 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:11:31 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62 01:11:32 t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109 01:11:32 t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148 01:11:32 t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187 01:11:32 t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226 01:11:33 [1711 @more lines] 01:11:37 :t let a x = (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) x in (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) 01:11:39 I love how they suggest a workaround. As though anyone needs a 72-tuple. 01:11:51 forall a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z t28 t29 t30 t31 t32 t33 t34 t35 t36 t37 t38 t39 t40 t41 t42 t43 t44 t45 t46 t47 t48 t49 t50 t51 t52 t53 t54 t55 t56 t57 t58 t59 t60 t61 t62 01:11:51 t63 t64 t65 t66 t67 t68 t69 t70 t71 t72 t73 t74 t75 t76 t77 t78 t79 t80 t81 t82 t83 t84 t85 t86 t87 t88 t89 t90 t91 t92 t93 t94 t95 t96 t97 t98 t99 t100 t101 t102 t103 t104 t105 t106 t107 t108 t109 01:11:51 t110 t111 t112 t113 t114 t115 t116 t117 t118 t119 t120 t121 t122 t123 t124 t125 t126 t127 t128 t129 t130 t131 t132 t133 t134 t135 t136 t137 t138 t139 t140 t141 t142 t143 t144 t145 t146 t147 t148 01:11:51 t149 t150 t151 t152 t153 t154 t155 t156 t157 t158 t159 t160 t161 t162 t163 t164 t165 t166 t167 t168 t169 t170 t171 t172 t173 t174 t175 t176 t177 t178 t179 t180 t181 t182 t183 t184 t185 t186 t187 01:11:51 t188 t189 t190 t191 t192 t193 t194 t195 t196 t197 t198 t199 t200 t201 t202 t203 t204 t205 t206 t207 t208 t209 t210 t211 t212 t213 t214 t215 t216 t217 t218 t219 t220 t221 t222 t223 t224 t225 t226 01:11:55 CakeProphet: what workaround 01:11:58 CakeProphet, yep. 01:11:59 Lymia: i thought you were taking it to pm 01:12:02 elliott, couldn't. 01:12:07 lambdabot didn't respond. >:( 01:12:08 CakeProphet: oh i see 01:12:17 Lymia: you need ?type or @type 01:12:17 not :t 01:12:21 elliott: 21:11 < lambdabot> Workaround: use nested tuples or define a data type 01:12:25 Lymia: also, take pics 01:12:32 @more 01:12:33 CakeProphet: right 01:12:33 t227 t228 t229 t230 t231 t232 t233 t234 t235 t236 t237 t238 t239 t240 t241 t242 t243 t244 t245 t246 t247 t248 t249 t250 t251 t252 t253 t254 t255 t256 t257 t258 t259 t260 t261 t262 t263 t264 t265 01:12:33 t266 t267 t268 t269 t270 t271 t272 a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1 i1 j1 k1 l1 m1 n1 o1 p1 q1 r1 s1 t1 u1 v1 w1 x1 y1 z1 t281 t291 t301 t311 t321 t331 t341 t351 t361 t371 t381 t391 t401 t411 t421 t431 t441 01:12:33 t451 t461 t471 t481 t491 t501 t511 t521 t531 t541 t551 t561 t571 t581 t591 t601 t611 t621 t631 t641 t651 t661 t671 t681 t691 t701 t711 t721 t731 t741 t751 t761 t771 t781 t791 t801 t811 t821 t831 01:12:33 t841 t851 t861 t871 t881 t891 t901 t911 t921 t931 t941 t951 t961 t971 t981 t991 t1001 t1011 t1021 t1031 t1041 t1051 t1061 t1071 t1081 t1091 t1101 t1111 t1121 t1131 t1141 t1151 t1161 t1171 t1181 01:12:33 t1191 t1201 t1211 t1221 t1231 t1241 t1251 t1261 t1271 t1281 t1291 t1301 t1311 t1321 t1331 t1341 t1351 t1361 t1371 t1381 t1391 t1401 t1411 t1421 t1431 t1441 t1451 t1461 t1471 t1481 t1491 t1501 t1511 01:12:35 [1938 @more lines] 01:12:58 I need to learn more Haskell... 01:13:07 ..I need to get op privs. 01:13:57 XD 01:14:06 CakeProphet++ 01:14:13 CakeProphet: i was slightly tempted there 01:14:30 at least a kick. 01:14:37 not a kickban :P 01:14:39 `addquote [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] I need to learn more Haskell... ..I need to get op privs. 01:14:40 ​441) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] I need to learn more Haskell... ..I need to get op privs. 01:14:46 possibly the backstory lessens the humour of that one :D 01:14:53 -!- foocraft_ has joined. 01:15:01 what humour 01:15:02 it's all gone 01:15:14 monqy: there is no humour because I AM NOT ENGLISH. 01:15:15 foocraft_: stop crafting foos 01:15:15 dissected with the frog 01:15:36 or we'll put you behind bars 01:15:49 ohhh snap! 01:16:57 ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8m3wC5pH-8 01:17:28 oh snap 01:17:39 -!- foocraft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:17:40 oerjan: can you ban Maharba[exclamation mark][asterisk]@[asterisk] preemptively for not replying 01:17:42 yes, a 3 second youtube video. 01:19:03 yes, i can. 01:19:12 maybe i'll implement some other language but still call the implementation sylladex 01:19:13 mwahahaha 01:19:54 meanwhile, the loper blog has now completely degenerated into idiocy 01:20:06 * CakeProphet is devising one of those self modifying thingamajiggers. 01:20:14 fascinating 01:20:17 what's loper now 01:20:22 loper-os.org 01:20:27 oh that 01:20:34 it used to be interesting if you could get past stanislav's... stanislavosity 01:20:37 now it's... not 01:20:40 consisting of the self-modifying language and a sister ESOTERIC REGULAR EXPRESSION LANGUAGE. 01:20:49 CakeProphet: latter already exists (cyclexa) 01:22:03 but is it awesome? 01:22:13 the key here is that mine will be awesome. 01:22:18 it's tc :) 01:22:23 it's an ais lang 01:22:28 -yawwwwn- 01:22:35 it's actually really interesting 01:22:38 ask him about it sometime. 01:22:58 perhaps I shall. 01:22:59 only time I heard of loper was in a conversation about laughing at the losethos guy I forget his name 01:23:12 monqy: stanislav is like the losethos guy but less insane 01:23:14 and more coherent 01:23:34 It makes sense that some hypotheticals are unanswerable 01:23:47 oh, sgeo is here. 01:23:51 But not things like what if the sun stopped existing, would we still orbit 01:24:07 hi sgeo 01:24:09 Hi 01:25:08 wow I'm trying to read the loper blog 01:26:15 Sgeo: um that's because "the sun stopped existing" is a violation of energy conservation, so it reduces to "if this thing ruled out by the laws of physics happens, what would the laws of physics say about this intuitively related thing" 01:27:33 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:30:14 to make the sun "disappear" _without_ violating energy conservation and general relativity, you would have to actually _move_ the energy at lower-than-light-speed somewhere, at which point you could try to calculate the results 01:31:10 oerjan: There's another means. 01:31:29 oerjan: except that it's more like freeze-framing the universe in a debugger, and removing the sun itself 01:31:29 oerjan: The sun could exhibit an exceptionally improbable instance of quantum teleportation. 01:31:40 sure, the laws of physics don't actually allow this, except maybe as pikhq said 01:31:43 but we can model it conceptually 01:31:55 pikhq: hm 01:32:01 (assuming that wave-particle duality holds for such large objects, which is admittedly an open question) 01:32:01 just have a special "event" sun-disappears which has those effects on state, in the laws of physics 01:32:10 and evaluate it to the point where you can be sure that sun-disappears never interacts with the earth 01:32:12 i'm explaining this badly 01:32:14 but basically 01:32:26 you can "implement" things that don't interact with everything else in the universe, in the laws of physics 01:32:35 and as long as you can prove that no such unevaluatable interaction occurs 01:32:41 you can say what the effects would be without actually reconciling this paradox 01:33:02 which is why we can give a perfectly satisfactory answer to the question "what would happen to our orbit if the sun disappeared instantly?" 01:33:50 And that answer is, of course, "Nothing, until the lack-of-gravity and lack-of-light propogates (about 8 minutes)". 01:33:59 elliott: um i interpret "unanswerable" as there is no answer that can be deduced from anything we can plausibly do 01:34:15 oerjan: you mean we can't test it? 01:34:19 of course one could make up hypotheses 01:34:21 that's not what's being asked, the question is one of theory 01:34:57 oerjan: We can make very highly plausible hypotheses from our understanding of valid theories. 01:34:59 oerjan: the question is actually -- "If the laws of physics had a special-case mechanism which made a special state transition at this particular arbitrary point, then what would happen?" 01:35:19 oerjan: now, this is answerable as long as the specific scenario doesn't actually cause some kind of logical contradiction in the theory 01:35:24 even if the theory as a whole has "impossible" scenarios 01:35:37 oerjan: Which is the only reasonable way to interpret questions about such hypotheticals. 01:35:45 oerjan: i mean /any/ hypothetical question is like this 01:36:34 I don't see where RRC made such a comment to someone who asked such a question, link? 01:36:36 Doesn't matter if the hypothetical situation itself could, likely, never be tested without an infinite improbability drive. 01:36:51 Sgeo: see log 01:37:08 Help me understand (self.askscience) 01:37:08 submitted 5 hours ago by Numerous1 01:37:09 If humans are NOT supposed to be monogamous, and are supposed to find the best genes, survival of the fittest and all that, why do humans fall in love? 01:37:14 totes question for /r/askscience 01:38:03 "The other way of quantifying distance is to imagine freezing time at some instant, and then physically measuring the distance between A and B using a series of rulers. Of course, you can't freeze time and physically measure cosmological distances. But you can compute what those instantaneous distances are, using inferences gleaned from astronomical observations and some maths." 01:38:12 why robotrollcall, it looks like you're using a hypothetical impossible scenario here 01:39:07 It's not on http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/hsrsq/what_would_happen_in_terms_of_gravity_if_you/ as far as I can tell, or her userpage 01:39:07 Did she delete it? 01:39:17 its linked from that thread 01:39:19 didn't einstein explain this measuring distance stuff pretty thoroughly 01:39:37 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/hai2t/does_the_gravity_of_one_object_affect_attract/ 01:39:45 oerjan: i'm just mocking 01:40:15 "Personally, I think the #1 reason to distrust Bitcoin is that both the libertarian nuts and the gold nuts love it." hmm... this person isn't thinking right 01:41:07 Ah, ty 01:42:35 RRC: "Okie doke, so let's say something accelerated the sun very quickly… 01:42:35 No, let's not. Let's consider only things that are actually possible." 01:43:05 yeah, that's the objectionable comment IMHO 01:44:20 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/hai2t/does_the_gravity_of_one_object_affect_attract/c1tvm5c well, this does make sense 01:44:23 three days without homestuck update, starting to lose ability to metabolise 01:44:40 elliott, SJAHJ update recently. 01:44:47 Sgeo: the situation is not comparable 01:44:50 and i'm aware of the sbahj update 01:52:10 http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/123187958.html 01:52:14 >how dose i tor 02:00:11 It's more brazen than anything else by lightyears. 02:00:32 Is Shumer utterly unaware that Tor is also being used to keep the website anonymous? 02:00:37 *Schumer 02:01:46 "It's an online form of money laundering used to disguise the source of money, and to disguise who's both selling and buying the drug" - Schumer on Bitcoins 02:02:26 -!- _foocraft has joined. 02:05:44 -!- foocraft_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:07:04 elliott: cyclexa is indeed interesting. 02:08:02 I now have some new ideas for my own language. But I'll be focusing more on the ability to define new matching/zero-width operators. 02:11:27 so the language I'm brainstorming currently resembles a traditional language designed for pattern matching more than it resembles a regular expression language. I guess that makes it esoteric. :P 02:15:53 CakeProphet, you mean Perl? 02:16:00 No. :P 02:16:06 #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Perl in a nutshell. 02:16:53 it's still a regular expression language, it's just slightly more verbose. 02:16:59 and has more operators. 02:17:08 that do things not related to matching patterns in text. 02:17:39 essentially they're treated as zero-width assertions. 02:18:11 are you talking about perl or your new language now? >:) 02:18:17 new language. 02:19:24 -!- Lymia has set topic: PEANUTS FOR THE PPLEASURE | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | #!/bin/perl -sp0777i but yes, step one will the regular expression language. step two is the self-modifying language. Because the second one will be able to use pattern matching constructs in the first. 02:19:38 -!- elliott has set topic: PEANUTS FOR THE PPLEASURE | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 02:19:47 :< 02:19:57 you can bash any lang w/ obfuscated code. 02:19:57 perl out of a nutshell 02:20:36 you can even bash bash with obfuscated code. 02:21:30 and in the above example of obfuscated Perl, you can even obfuscate code with bash and bash that too. 02:22:27 There is a result of my experiment that is not according to my theory, though 02:22:43 Sgeo: time to revise the theory. 02:22:51 At low enough gravity, the test object higher up never responded to gravity, but the one nearer the ground did 02:23:01 ...woah. 02:23:07 some kind of field? 02:23:26 I did predict such an effect, but not that low down, and didn't think strength of gravity could affect it 02:23:44 This is in Second Life, btw 02:24:10 My current hypothesis for an explanation is that terminal velocity is lower for lower gravity 02:24:26 elliott, golfed code vs obfuscated code. 02:24:26 oh. lol. well, in actual physics, the strength of gravity most certainly determines the effective radius of the field (even though it's theoretically infinite iirc). 02:25:19 and by "strength of gravity" I actually mean the mass of the object. 02:25:22 Sgeo, just break out the disassembles. 02:25:43 that doesn't help for serverside 02:27:06 Sgeo: try adjusting the gravity and see if the inverse square law applies. If it does you should be able to calculate some kind of cutoff distance for a given mass to not be affected by the gravity. 02:27:33 cutoff distance? 02:28:10 Hmm, test if gravity is as strong in the air as near the surface? 02:28:30 What is big G on Second Life? 02:28:46 yes, basically. and test if it's inversely proportional to the square of the distance, specifically. 02:29:40 -!- _foocraft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:29:48 um note in ordinary gravity it's distance to the earth's _center_, not the surface 02:29:52 I doubt it, but I'll try it 02:29:56 oerjan: right. 02:30:09 -!- Kustas has joined. 02:30:17 Sgeo: yeah I'm probably expecting too much from Second Life there. :P 02:30:35 I think it's easier to test terminal velocity first, though 02:30:52 but it would explain why objects off the ground wouldn't be affected by a low gravity. 02:31:03 i should do that in elliottcraft 02:31:03 *higher off the ground 02:31:19 infinite threedee plane OBVIOUSLY HAS A CENTRE 02:31:23 CakeProphet, I have a diferent explanation 02:31:58 elliott: is that going to be like a crazy physics playground? 02:32:07 because I would totally play that. 02:32:16 If terminal velocity is not enough to pull the object down 1 representable float within 1 frame, then gravity can't do anything 02:32:19 something that like updated Garry's Mod would be awesome. 02:32:48 Sgeo: ah. That makes some sense. 02:32:58 Then again, the oberved approximate cutoff suggests, under my model, that in low gravity, terminal velocity is reached in about a second, so that seems a bit... um, weird 02:33:03 but does it explain why the elevation matters? 02:33:07 CakeProphet: minecraft done right. by which i mean: completely differently/ 02:33:09 But I should just measure it already 02:33:18 more similar to dwarf fortress, even. 02:33:25 elliott: it should be an awesome physics playground.. 02:33:25 CakeProphet, yes. Higher elevation == representable floats are more distant 02:33:40 elliott: ...text based? 02:34:26 or more similar in that it's more complex. 02:34:42 CakeProphet: no, threedee 02:34:50 :p 02:35:53 elliott: Make it first-person style with AWESOME PHYSICS GUNS that can do things like shoot a projectile through the air and remote detonate it to produce a sustained gravity field at the center of the blast point. 02:36:10 I like to call representable floats of altitude "cosmic shells" 02:36:13 It's more fun 02:36:38 elliott: and a gun that dilates time in a region of space. 02:36:48 no. 02:37:00 ..and then make it a puzzle game. 02:37:05 FINE. I'll just make my own game. 02:37:07 that's for asteroids ii 02:37:12 (time dilation) 02:37:38 I think time dilation would be an excellent element to a puzzle game. Along with a gravity field generating thing. 02:37:41 It's theoretically possible that the gravitational delay I observed is a measuring artifact, I guess. 02:37:52 But the fact that gravity stopped at higher altitudes is not an artifact. 02:37:58 (for low enough gravity) 02:38:13 asteroids ii is a shooter though. but the engine could be reused. :p 02:38:18 Sgeo: perhaps you've discovered a theory of special Second Life relativity. 02:39:10 that has nothing to do with the real one.. 02:39:28 are you suggesting second life isn't real 02:39:42 what? of course not. 02:39:52 I am a second life character, after all. 02:42:56 -!- _foocraft has joined. 02:47:06 beware of the crafty foos 03:14:20 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:14:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:14:54 odd, for some reason my mouse just decides to not work for several seconds at a time. 03:23:29 if it does not affect the keyboard the same way, then it's something esoteric 03:31:24 CakeProphet: after typing? 03:38:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:39:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:51:30 elliott: sometimes. But that's a different problem related to me accidentally brushing the touchpad, which somehow interferes with the mouse I believe. 03:53:33 CakeProphet: system -> preferences -> mouse -> touchpad, disable "disable touchpad while typing" 03:53:35 (ubuntu) 03:53:42 that might help. very annoying behaviour. 03:57:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:58:16 god i feel ill 03:59:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:59:58 still no homestuck update. world as we know it starting to decompose. suicide imminent. 04:00:58 "I certainly sat in lots of Scheme design meetings where I pushed for obvious things like branch cuts, error handling, and other "useful" things and was told that such things would ... make the language "too useful" [thus meaning too many people would flock to it and it would be the end of the designers' ability to do the things to the language that _they_ wanted to do]." 04:01:00 --Kent Pitman 04:01:31 Ah, yes, avoid success at all costs. 04:02:05 -!- olsner_ has joined. 04:02:11 To be fair, in Haskell that's achieved by trying to pack in as much abstraction as possible, rather than omitting useful things. :p 04:02:44 It's definitely a sentiment I can get behind, though; god knows how many ideas are ruined because the thinker starts considering other people. 04:03:31 http://christian-success-institute.org/ DEVELOPING SUCCESSFUL CHRISTIAN ENTREPRENEURS THROUGH BIBLICAL SUCCESS PRINCIPLES 04:04:02 * elliott checks if Eigenclass has updated lately. 04:04:07 Nope. 04:05:18 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:12:27 hey pikhq_ 04:12:30 how much does everything suck 04:14:07 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 04:14:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:14:40 -!- Lymia has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:14:42 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia. 04:14:44 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 04:14:44 -!- Lymia has joined. 04:16:46 current suckage level: 62.8% 04:17:28 you forgot "and rising" 04:17:36 also, that's far too low a value 04:18:06 Sturgeon's law would imply that only an infinitesimal percentage of things do not suck 04:18:28 Woah, I'm like... writing a language spec. 04:18:35 it's been like 3 years or so I think? 04:18:37 CakeProphet, you are? 04:18:46 yes, I'm working on a regular expression language. 04:18:55 that like, makes sense and stuff. 04:18:56 I usually just write troll languages nowadays. 04:19:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php 04:19:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php 04:19:33 (both named after talk pages spambots repeatedly created; I made the article versions so that the admins couldn't legitimately keep the talk pages protected to prevent vandalism :D) 04:21:12 Well, that was astounding. 04:21:26 Somehow, Firefox was causing swap thrashing without having any pages in swap. 04:21:54 I do believe that's a whole new level of fail. 04:23:01 ewww swap. groooss. 04:23:57 I have no idea why my computer decided to allocate 244 KBs of swap when it's only used 1.6 gigs of memory out of 3.7 04:24:09 It had 0 swap. And thrashing. 04:24:20 *And it was fucking swap thrashing*. 04:24:32 At least, that's what iotop showing kswapd using a bunch of IO tells me. 04:24:53 * CakeProphet uses Chrome, has no problems other than Flash crashing occasionally. 04:25:18 Chrome actually uses more virtual memory than Firefox, although I think less real memory 04:25:24 Since all the code can be shared, pretty much 04:25:29 Of course, virtual memory is irrelevant on sixtyfour-bit 04:25:51 The thing with Chrome for me is that it scales much better with large numbers of tabs whereas Firefox doesn't. 04:26:41 elliott: also see: frequent crashing in Firefox 04:27:17 A program written in an unsafe language crashing? I'm shocked. 04:27:26 Chrome crashes semi-often too, but it's at least usually localised to a tab or a few. 04:44:46 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:44:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:44:56 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 04:44:56 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:45:12 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to Kallisti. 04:45:22 Yeah, virtual memory is basically a non-issue. Heck, mmap the entire address space and it doesn't even matter. 04:45:54 (well, except that your page table might hate you if you don't madvise to tell Linux to use huge pages) 04:46:21 -!- Kallisti has changed nick to CakeProphet. 04:48:52 night 04:49:19 sleep well. 04:51:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:54:19 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:54:25 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:57:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:57:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 04:57:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:58:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:21:59 -!- Patashu has joined. 05:31:22 And now, the comic is technically no longer Dresden Codak's full-time job. 05:31:32 Let's see if this changes anything at all with the update schedule. 05:34:30 pikhq_: nonsense. 05:36:38 CakeProphet: Previous observations seem to suggest this will be utterly unnoticable. 05:37:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:23 -!- Kustas has quit (Quit: disco out of the blues). 05:46:27 " has rodgerthegreat ever actually said anything that's true? i'm honestly curious" <<< i cannot quite recall such a miracle 05:46:43 then again i recall very few concrete things he has said and many of them you just pasted 05:49:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:49:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:49:38 " 05:31:04: Many diseases, conditions and other types of deviations work like this." <<< also what he says about homosexuality sounds correct enough in the sense that the correct modern explanation to everything is "it's complicated" 05:50:40 but i guess you were more worried about his calling gays diseased, so to speak. 05:51:53 It amuses me somewhat that, for a while, I could have probably been called a Christian deist... 05:52:06 Which is such a contradiction in terms I can't help but giggle. 05:52:38 why is it a contradiction? 05:53:09 oklopol: Typically, Christianity holds that there is a large amount of divine intervention in the world. 05:53:16 Deism holds that there is none. 05:54:10 oh that was deism hu 05:54:29 i guess i'm a deist then! 05:54:43 Yeah, deism is the belief that there was a deity who created the world and has since not intervened. 05:55:11 well you know i get this nice feeling in my balls if i think the big bang had a beard and liked marshmellows. 05:55:32 It's perhaps the only theistic claim that doesn't directly contradict known empirical evidence. 05:55:45 *allows 05:55:55 Though, having no basis *in* empirical evidence, it is most likely bullshit. 05:56:31 well it makes it rather meaningless and thus the adult thing is not to talk about it 05:56:33 let's go weak atheism! 05:56:40 Buddhism has some theistic claims that are supported by empirical evidence. Particularly the positive effects of meditation on the brain. 05:56:46 though 05:56:48 CakeProphet: That's not a theistic claim. 05:56:53 that might stretch the definition--yes, that. 05:56:55 CakeProphet: A theistic claim is a claim that there is a deity. 05:57:18 yeah because prayer certainly never has effects on the brain 05:57:29 I interpreted theistic as meaning "something that concerns religious practice", but that's not quite right. 05:57:34 The common subset of the beliefs termed "Buddhism" does not contain a theistic claim. 05:57:36 meditation is different from prayer 05:57:55 Supernatural claims, sure, but not theistic ones. 05:57:55 pikhq: Is Therevada the most common subset? 05:58:16 Not "the most common subset". "The common subset". 05:58:39 As in, the set of beliefs that is common to all beliefs which are called "Buddhism". 05:58:44 ah 05:59:00 INTERSECTION 05:59:12 Though, actually, I'm pretty sure Therevada is fairly close to that. 05:59:19 somewhat. 05:59:22 coppro: i'm not saying they're the same thing, i'm saying i doubt meditation is better 05:59:53 You've got to be pretty damned careful when discussing Buddhism, though. It makes Christianity look homogenous. :P 06:01:03 coppro: Whoo, weak atheism! 06:01:09 what's weak atheism 06:01:20 oklopol: The belief that there is *probably* no deity. 06:01:28 Therevada is at least the most traditional. The common subset would be parts of the Pali Canon I think. 06:01:36 the teachings therein, that is. 06:01:55 And that, even if there is, there is no reason to think *that* there is currently. 06:02:14 As opposed to strong atheism, the belief that there absolutely, positively, IS NOT a deity. 06:02:21 mm 06:02:36 and has as much logical foundation as any theistic claim 06:02:49 Strong atheism is not a very common position. 06:02:50 i'm sure it does 06:03:19 Though it is a commonly held position of strawmen. 06:03:36 From now on, all atheists will be assigned fuzzy atheism values determining their strength of belief in a lack of a deity. 06:04:05 -!- _foocraft has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:04:36 -!- augur has joined. 06:04:38 There's also the belief that atheists... Hate $DEITY (typically YHWH). 06:04:42 That one confuses me greatly. 06:04:54 I can't hate something that I don't believe in. 06:05:01 pikhq: that one's not special to atheists 06:05:02 Yeah, precisely. 06:05:12 coppro: Oh? 06:05:14 coppro: Oh dear. 06:05:32 pikhq: though it's possible to hate that other people believe such a thing. Or to hate the concept itself. So that's not out of the question, and would be very similar to hating the deity itself for someone who believes these things. 06:05:36 Any person not of $RELIGION hates $DEITIES[$RELIGION] 06:05:37 duh 06:06:08 CakeProphet: Distinct from hating the deity personally, though. 06:06:26 I CLEARLY DESPISe EVERY DEITY EVER 06:06:26 * @{$DEITIES{$RELIGION}} if this is Perl.. of course. :D 06:06:32 pikhq: right. 06:06:32 BANJO CAN SUCK MY COCK 06:06:47 there should be a term for people who love to talk about this stuff, that's really all that matters. maybe theist should mean that. 06:07:02 i'd be the only atheist in town 06:07:21 then again i love telling people how annoying these talks are when they occur, so i guess i'm just as bad 06:07:41 I enjoy my stance of agnosticism, primarily because I don't have to explain much. 06:07:53 CakeProphet: Do you believe that there is a deity? 06:08:10 pikhq: I believe that I can't know the answer to that question. 06:08:22 What's your best guess? 06:08:25 no 06:08:34 weak atheis 06:08:39 s/$/t/ 06:08:39 CakeProphet: I'm not asking "Do you think there is a deity, or do you think there is not a deity?" 06:08:45 -!- oklopol has quit. 06:08:53 CakeProphet: I'm asking "Do you think 'There is a deity' is definitely a true statement?" 06:09:20 pikhq: I know exactly what you asked. :P There are multiple questions I can't know the answer to. 06:09:28 Applying aristolean binary on/off logic to deities and religion is a GREAT idea guys!!! 06:09:39 Let's argue about undecidable questions 06:09:48 eeh eeh eeh! do do do! 06:09:51 * Patashu smug 06:09:53 Patashu: Fuck you and your lack of reading comprehension. 06:10:22 I prefer to apply nine-valued vdhl logic to logical statements about deities. 06:10:44 I believe that the truth of "There is a deity" is U (uninitialized) 06:10:49 http://www.abelard.org/category/category.php 06:10:52 this guy will free ur mind 06:10:57 CakeProphet: Then you're an atheist. Congrats. 06:11:15 CakeProphet: BTW, 9-valued VHDL logic is definitely a good choice for this. :P 06:11:25 pikhq: well, sure. Atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive believes. 06:11:28 what's VHDL logic again? high, low, don't know, don't care, error... 06:11:29 *beliefs 06:11:32 CakeProphet: Quite true. 06:12:35 Patashu: I believe there are two for "true" and "false" with no high and low impedence quality. 06:13:00 so that's...six in total? 06:13:04 if you meant no/high/low 06:13:11 Patashu: I'm going to insist on a proof that this person has attended an "Intro to Logic" course. 06:13:26 or a Philosophy class would do. 06:13:32 Patashu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1164 06:13:36 there. :D 06:14:07 CakeProphet: Well, yes. Any course with a satisfactory treatment of deductive logic would work, really. 06:14:29 ty cakeprofit 06:14:33 err, prophet 06:14:34 O:) 06:15:12 there's 6 for (weak|strong) (true|false|unknown), then high impedence, don't care, uninitialized 06:15:20 -!- Vorpal has joined. 06:15:21 interesting 06:15:45 Patashu: Also, this discussion seems to start off with wrong *premises*. 06:15:50 the true, false, unknown bit is also a ternary logic system in itself. 06:16:02 and then the strong weak stuff comes from four-valued logic used in circuits. 06:16:04 yeah, though not a useful one I think? 06:16:09 right 06:16:09 things that, I don't know anything about. (circuits, that is) 06:16:22 Patashu: ternary logic can be useful. 06:16:26 Patashu: Categorical logic is not commonly used these days, due to being a relatively weak system of logic. 06:16:30 I agree it can be useful 06:16:43 but if one of the values is 'unknown'...unless that's a specific value, not the value is unknown? 06:16:59 in programming languages, it's not common to have a real ternary logic system though. Most languages simply treat the undefined value as false. 06:17:09 unknown is a specific value. 06:17:17 representing the case where the truth is unknown. 06:17:28 mmk 06:17:39 It's truth-functional propositional logic that's commonly used, and the discussion you linked to doesn't even make any claims against it. 06:17:41 (true or unknown) = true; (false or unknown) = false 06:17:50 (though, the claims it *does* make are non-sense) 06:17:57 s/non-sense/nonsense/ 06:18:02 (true|false) and unknown = unknown 06:18:10 it all makes intuitive sense. 06:20:22 not unknown = unknown 06:21:11 what about fuzzy logic? 06:21:12 I'm not sure how conditional statements work, or anything like that. I assume you just construct everything with (and|or) and not 06:21:15 true and 0.6*true = 0.6*true 06:21:16 Patashu: what about it? 06:21:30 fuzzy logic doesn't really work that way, I think. 06:21:55 well, if it has a 60% chance of being true and a thing that is always true, the and is 60% too 06:22:03 that's not the same as fuzzy logic 06:22:19 that's probability logic. 06:22:30 fuzzy logic is a "degree" of truth. 06:22:57 x AND y = minimum(truth(x), truth(y)) 06:23:03 according to wikipedia 06:23:17 although that's just one way of defining it 06:23:35 okay that makes sense. 06:23:45 or is max I'd imagine. 06:23:59 and not is 1-p 06:25:01 you could also define it as with probability. With and as multiplication, and or as addition with a maximum value of 1. 06:25:36 depends on the application. 06:25:39 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:26:41 :t (||) 06:26:42 Bool -> Bool -> Bool 06:26:52 honestly the boolean operators should be typeclass methods. 06:27:55 http://www.captchart.com/post/2546187692/corgling-good-submitted-by-stammsternenstaub I want one 06:28:02 :t min 06:28:03 forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> a 06:28:19 > min True False 06:28:20 False 06:28:22 thought so 06:28:26 is there an Unknown in haskell? 06:28:32 not in Bool no 06:28:40 there's Nothing, which is of type Maybe t 06:28:46 which can act as an unknown value. 06:28:52 there's undefined 06:28:55 or a number of things. But it doesn't fit into the ternary logic model. 06:28:55 One could define a Trivalue type just fine. 06:29:27 though you'd have to give true and false a different name 06:29:33 data Trivalue = Unknown | True | False -- Note: will need a qualified import 06:29:43 CakeProphet: Or do a qualified import of Prelude. 06:29:44 ah, or do that. 06:30:16 undefined is something quite different from unknown in this sense. 06:30:28 Yeah, bottom is very different. 06:30:45 I wasn't paying attention so I didn't know what you were talking about 06:30:52 monqy: Trivalue logic. 06:31:02 mm 06:31:08 Perl employs a kind of three-valued logic between true, false, and undefined 06:31:18 how does it work there 06:31:19 damnit I have all these tabs open but everyone is talking about things on IRC and they are interesting 06:31:20 -!- jcp has joined. 06:31:58 undef is considered false in a boolean context, but many functions will return undef to signify something different than true and false. 06:32:05 usually "another kind" of false. 06:32:27 and then there's defined(x), which returns true for both true and false values, but false for undef. 06:32:39 I think SQL does ternary logic 06:32:44 with true/false/null 06:33:26 is true or null = true? 06:33:47 think so...let me try and find out 06:33:48 or is it like most languages where null/nil/undef is a special kind of false value. 06:34:03 None in the case of Python. 06:34:05 according to ye wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic#Applications 06:34:13 You could rather easily do trivalue logic in Java. 06:34:41 Note that a missing value is not the same as either a numeric value of zero, or a string value of zero length. 06:34:45 Though you'd have to do the operators manually. I'm at least pretty sure that trying to do an operator on a Null will get you an exception. 06:35:00 huh, operator on a null/ 06:35:04 in java only objects can be null 06:35:07 and primitives won't work on objects iirc 06:35:14 Oh? Fuck Java even more. 06:35:15 because you can't define operators for things 06:35:30 well except for the capital letter object versions of primitives and strings, of course 06:35:31 which are Special 06:35:39 one of my favorite things about Perl logic is that the boolean operators also serve as control flow statements. and/or return the last parameter evaluated. 06:35:47 iirc the biginteger class has a big ass list of add(biginteger a, big integer b) type methods 06:35:55 I was, of course, referring to the objected version of Bool... 06:36:01 hmmmm 06:36:02 one second 06:36:10 yes a boxed Bool can be set to null. 06:36:10 I hate it when people use boolean operators as control flow 06:36:18 CakeProphet: That's actually fairly common in imperative languages... 06:36:19 bugs me so much 06:36:27 CakeProphet: As typically, the boolean operators short-circuit. 06:36:39 monqy: why? it's not very difficult to follow and makes things very convenient. 06:36:41 Boolean has compareTo, equals, booleanValue 06:37:00 CakeProphet: You can, in fact, do it in C, though not as usefully without GNU expression statements. 06:37:03 compareTo throws nullpointerexception 06:37:03 CakeProphet: it's not very difficult to follow until it gets difficult to follow 06:37:04 oh lord 06:37:12 equals does not thank god 06:37:13 pikhq: but in C for example they return bool. Perl literally returns whatever the parameter was. Perl doesn't actually have boolean data types. 06:37:42 CakeProphet: No they don't. 06:37:44 lots of languages are like that aren't they 06:37:47 CakeProphet: They return int. 06:38:01 pikhq: er, right. 06:38:02 CakeProphet: C doesn't actually have boolean data types. 06:38:11 scheme and lua, for two 06:38:16 (well, there's _Bool, but that's just an integer type) 06:38:18 pikhq: bool is a kind of synonym for int, yes. 06:38:44 haskell is lazily evaluated so you never need that nonsense 06:38:55 ...I'm not talking about short-circuiting. 06:39:12 well then 06:39:18 haskell is functional so you never need that nonsense 06:39:41 I'm saying. you can do things like: function($x || 4) and it will return 4 if $x is false. 06:40:28 monqy: that was more directed to above statements that I didn't have time to respond to. 06:40:52 Aaaah, bad type systems. 06:40:56 heheheh 06:41:04 more like "almost no type system" 06:41:11 I must say I do like a good type system 06:41:14 CakeProphet, that example sounds perlish 06:41:25 it is very perlish. 06:41:44 CakeProphet: You see, bad! 06:41:50 $x //= 3 will give $x a value of 3 if it's currently holding undef (which it does by default) 06:41:56 CakeProphet, what does it do in perl? 06:42:03 And it definitely has an extensive type system. Those damned sigels would have no meaning otherwise. 06:42:11 the $x || 4 one I mean 06:42:35 same sort of thing as || does in shell? 06:42:44 anyway in haskell you'd probably use the maybe monad for that sort of thing 06:42:46 Vorpal: function is just a dummy name. || returns the last value evaluated by short-circuiting or. 06:42:50 Vorpal: I think so. 06:42:54 ah 06:42:57 yes sounds like it 06:43:11 and <|> 06:43:19 CakeProphet, it would just equal 1 in C. I have to say that is somewhat saner 06:43:27 at least I think you'd use <|> and Maybe 06:43:28 well, 1 or 0 06:43:35 that sort of construct that is 06:44:01 which language has more operators. haskell or perl? 06:44:04 Vorpal: it's the exact same effect, except you can now pass the original value to outer expressions. 06:44:22 haskell operators are just functions 06:44:25 Patashu, I would assume haskell, though maybe not if you limit yourself to prelude 06:44:28 dunno about perl 06:44:33 Vorpal: because if $x || 0 returns 0, that is false in boolean context. $x || 4 would return 4, which is true. 06:44:45 Patashu, and only count those that you don't need ` for 06:45:00 CakeProphet, hm 06:45:03 yeah when I say operator I mean 'funny symbol string' 06:45:09 :D 06:45:26 Patashu: Then Haskell. 06:45:28 Haskell has more operators for sure. 06:45:35 > let (~~!~~) = (++) in "look " ~~!~~ "operator" 06:45:37 Patashu: Because there are infinitely many possible such things. 06:45:39 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 06:45:42 oops 06:45:44 lol 06:45:45 nice 06:45:45 oh 06:45:48 does perl let you define your own operators? 06:45:49 I used a bad thing 06:45:53 Vorpal: No. 06:46:02 ah, definitely haskell then 06:46:04 > let (.+.) = (++) in "look " .+. "operator" 06:46:04 you can however overload existing operators OO-style. 06:46:06 "look operator" 06:46:09 :) 06:46:10 there's a library for perl that lets you define new operators 06:46:13 by chaining unambiguous ones together 06:46:24 eww 06:46:29 so... perlish! 06:46:34 haha perl 06:46:35 yep! 06:46:48 and there's a template system for C++ that lets you define constants by drawing cubes 06:46:58 Patashu, *blink* 06:46:58 because it's an unambigous series of operators once all the whitespace is removed 06:47:03 let's see if I can find it again 06:47:03 Patashu, care to link me? 06:47:19 wow what 06:47:19 but anyways, Perl's boolean operators are awesome because I don't have to pull out if statements to do something very very simple, like return a default value in the case that something is false/undefined. 06:47:23 http://weegen.home.xs4all.nl/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml ah ha! 06:47:40 Vorpal: It used a similar trick to that IOCCC entry that computed pi by examining its own area. 06:48:05 pikhq, that one depended on K&R CPP iirc? 06:48:20 Vorpal: I don't think it was anything inherent. 06:48:30 CakeProphet: Perhaps you should use a better language. 06:48:38 pikhq, hm. 06:49:30 CakeProphet: what languages do you know, anyway 06:50:51 http://weegen.home.xs4all.nl/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml ah ha! <-- ew 06:50:53 Perl, Python, C, Java, C#, Haskell (though it escapes me very quickly), sh. Those are the ones I'm pretty comfortable with. 06:51:13 so you're comfortable with haskell but it escapes you? 06:51:19 yep. 06:51:24 haskell is definitely complex to learn. I know some of it. But there is so much of it. 06:52:07 I now Haskell. Syntax and semantics. All of the abstract modules that most Haskell programs rely on? No. 06:52:14 *know (I also know English) 06:52:31 CakeProphet: I find the abstractions to be utterly simple, personally. 06:52:50 Of course, I'm a freak who picked up Haskell in a week. 06:52:51 :P 06:53:28 pikhq, haskell has a vast standard library. I only know a fraction of it yet. 06:53:41 Vorpal: Prelude really isn't that large. 06:53:52 Some of the other stuff that comes in GHC is, though. 06:54:13 pikhq, I meant stuff like Control.Whatever and so on 06:54:29 Control.CategoryTheoreticalAbstractionNumberFourteen 06:54:35 Yeaaah, that's not standard stuff. 06:54:36 coppro, :D 06:54:43 pikhq, well, it is used quite a bit 06:54:44 Some of it ships in the Platform, though. 06:54:51 pikhq, if we keep to prelude I'm quite okay 06:54:54 Languages I don't know as well (I'll be constantly referring to reference material, but I know the language itself): C++, PHP, Javascript, Scheme 06:54:56 That "some" is relatively easy, though. 06:54:56 I know C++ and java and I can pretend to know haskell, bash and python 06:54:57 aw yeah!!! 06:55:00 I need to learn more languages 06:55:17 I try not to know php 06:55:17 Patashu: I can pretend to know Ruby. :) 06:55:19 (The misuse of Theoretical instead of Theoretic was a design mistake that was standardized early and no one has since bothered attempting to correct in order to maintain backwards compatibility) 06:55:22 CakeProphet: Pretty much all C++ programmers will need to keep a reference manual handy. 06:55:23 hehe 06:55:24 monqy: me too. 06:55:29 CakeProphet: C++ is just too big to keep in your head. 06:55:42 couldn't you do some kind of aliasing thing to let you use either? 06:56:01 either of? 06:56:10 theoretic or theoretical 06:56:43 Patashu: it's a highly contentious issue 06:56:49 haha 06:56:50 I know C very well. Bash I know intimately. Haskell I know some of. And then there is a crapload of other languages which I knew but haven't used much or know some of and so on, including everything from pascal and vhdl to python and scheme. 06:57:49 monqy: the main trying to not know PHP is a good idea is because it's a very poorly designed subset of Perl with a standard library that makes absolutely no sense. 06:57:53 *main reason 06:57:56 python is easy to pretend to know 06:58:19 Python was the first language I completely mastered. 06:58:30 wasn't difficult. 06:58:31 There's a lot of languages where you can hum a bar and I can fake it. 06:58:35 CakeProphet: I am the sort of awful person who dislikes it when people like php 06:58:42 monqy, I actually coded in it though (python that is) 06:58:50 mostly university stuff 06:58:54 python is easy to code in 06:58:58 yes 06:59:11 oh erlang, I know that fairly well. Better than haskell definitely. 06:59:14 I used to think Python was a good language. I have since learned better. 06:59:33 I can pretend to know erlang but I don't know any of the standart guard/function/whatever names 06:59:35 CakeProphet, I'm mostly annoyed at python's abysmal speed. 06:59:41 even pypy is utterly slow 06:59:57 I don't judge languages based on implementation speed 07:00:06 I don't see what's so special about python though 07:00:07 what kind of person thinks -python- is a bad language 07:00:10 ?_? 07:00:11 monqy, true, but I have yet to see a fast python implementation 07:00:38 monqy: someone who exects more and doesn't enjoy being treated like a child from the perspective of the language designer. 07:00:41 er 07:00:44 ^ Patashu 07:00:49 heheheheh 07:00:54 Patashu: If nothing else, there's the bit about van Rossum being convinced that TCO is a misfeature. 07:00:55 Patashu, come on, dynamically typed, and not pattern matching. At least erlang has the latter. 07:01:15 okay guys 07:01:16 this is it 07:01:19 what is The Best Language 07:01:24 all languages suck 07:01:26 yep 07:01:30 * Patashu goes home 07:01:32 Patashu, that depends on what you plan to use it for 07:01:32 Haskell has the lowest level of suck. 07:01:40 I have to agree with pikhq on that one. 07:01:42 I think I'll learn python next anyway, can't be worse than java 07:01:46 pikhq, haskell would not be very good for programming FPGAs in 07:01:52 Patashu: you should learn Perl because it is the best thing ever. 07:01:56 I should huh 07:01:58 Vorpal: I was giving a statement about the general case. 07:02:00 Patashu: and Python is much better than Java. 07:02:11 pikhq, I'm saying it is domain dependent which is the best language 07:02:12 I know python has a module for making GUIs/graphics stuff in it somewhere 07:02:14 does perl? haskell? 07:02:22 Vorpal: Most languages do. 07:02:23 imagining using opengl from within haskell gives me a shiver 07:02:24 haskell is good until I get really annoyed with what it lacks and how it's a pain to metaprogram 07:02:25 there are some things where sed is excellent. 07:02:25 Erm. 07:02:26 Patashu: ^ 07:02:28 Patashu: uh, what? 07:02:34 doesn't make sed a good language for most tasks 07:02:52 also I have a gripe about infix operators but that is just me 07:02:59 Patashu, yes, I think the existing opengl bindings for haskell are pretty much a direct mapping 07:03:00 Patashu: The only issue with the OpenGL binding in Haskell, for instance, is that it's all in IO, and hence not that Haskelly. 07:03:02 which... sucks 07:03:08 yeah that's what I mean 07:03:12 opengl is a global variable state machine 07:03:14 haskell is not 07:03:19 Python is actually pretty good at metaprogramming. But, so is any decently made dynamically typed and interpreted language 07:03:50 The only languages that are "pretty good" at metaprogramming are Lisps. 07:03:57 indeed 07:04:00 yep 07:04:40 easy to metaprogram, yes. I was talking about pure capability. 07:04:58 pure capability: do it by hand 07:06:53 as I see it, at a certain point, languages are all about making things nice (in a general enough sense to encompass safety and friends) 07:07:40 Even more generally, languages are all about making things good. 07:07:54 insert definition of good. 07:08:05 I'll equate nice and good here so we can agree 07:08:27 oh yes, we were always in agreement. 07:08:49 languages are about communication, be it between humans, between a human and a compiler, between two programs or whatever. 07:09:13 but is it nicegood communication 07:09:20 monqy, possibly 07:09:29 monqy, but why does English exist then? ;P 07:09:34 :'( 07:09:46 okay, French is harder to learn, definitely. 07:09:51 is french better 07:09:56 what 07:10:00 than english 07:10:04 I said harder to learn, that means worse 07:10:06 oh 07:10:23 I meant in terms of elegance, power, lack of ambiguity, and friends 07:10:27 "Harder to learn" is not an objective statement regarding languages. 07:10:31 of course, all natural languages suck apart from lojban possiblyu 07:10:34 possibly* 07:10:40 Lojban is not a natural language. 07:10:41 lojban is very natural 07:10:42 It's a conlang. 07:10:48 true 07:10:49 of course I jest 07:11:23 pikhq, what is a generic term for languages used to communicate between humans then? 07:11:31 verbal? 07:11:32 human languages? 07:11:36 hm 07:11:36 not necessarily verbal 07:11:39 yeah true 07:11:57 do you need a more generic term? 07:12:06 I guess "human languages" work 07:12:06 (less generic?) 07:12:23 though it *does* exclude aliens. 07:12:24 "Natural languages" is a term but only if you exclude constructed ones. 07:12:40 fizzie, constructed ones should be included. That was the point. 07:12:46 There's not a commonly used generic term. 07:12:48 Didn't bother to read backscroll, and it shows, yes. 07:13:05 fizzie, speaking of which. Hi. 07:13:05 "Spoken language" doesn't include sign languages, "natural language" doesn't include conlangs, ... 07:13:17 "Human language" probably includes programming languages. 07:13:22 afaik language only referred to how humans communicated until programming came along 07:13:30 I meant human languages as in meant for human communication 07:13:34 hm I should learn to *speak* Lisp. 07:13:42 programming language would be meant primarily for communication with machines 07:13:42 just to fuck up the term "spoken languages" 07:13:47 so you'd verbalize a program that outputs the result you want to communicate? 07:13:53 Patashu: And then came Chomsky. 07:13:54 Open bracket open bracket... 07:14:02 Patashu, no that is it rendered in English 07:14:15 Or would you come up with a syllable for each symbol 07:14:19 So ( would be like weoop 07:14:23 and ) is deeoop 07:14:30 you need to speak the *actual* language. Presumably somehow speaking the AST. 07:14:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:14:43 hm 07:14:51 well then you can't use sugar can you :( 07:15:00 oh good point 07:15:10 if you want to learn to speak a programming language, learn to speak golf script 07:15:16 it'll take you the least amount of time 07:15:22 good point 07:15:26 speaking perl would be pretty great 07:15:48 monqy, oh god, I wonder what a typical JAPH would sound like XD 07:16:33 how would a human interpret something like erlang 07:16:38 http://spikedmath.com/272.html 07:16:50 monqy, hm... 07:16:59 assuming actual use of concurrency and friends 07:17:38 generally, interpretation of any sort of complicated control/flow would be interesting 07:18:02 monqy: There is no requirement that concurrency be implemented by many *actual* simultaneous threads of execution. 07:18:10 monqy, using Petri nets you could understand them I guess. 07:18:11 It's sufficient to merely keep track of multiple program counters. 07:18:16 but that is not what you asked 07:18:52 pikhq, and registers. erlang compiles to a register machine byte code iirc. 07:19:26 Ah, right, it does. 07:19:30 pikhq: right, but for a human to keep track of it at all (in common conversation) would be nice 07:19:38 where by nice I mean hilarious 07:20:26 where by hilarious I mean interesting 07:21:17 monqy, where by interesting you mean nice? 07:21:25 possibly 07:23:32 a language with really crazy flow and necessitation of a lot of memory 07:23:53 designed to be difficult for human communication 07:24:21 I need to find a way to ethically measure terminal velocity 07:24:30 ethically? 07:25:12 you're still talking about second life right? 07:25:15 Yes 07:25:16 always 07:25:31 Can you explain second life ethics? 07:25:33 I'm dropping stuff off of high heights 07:25:40 I set it up so that they're "temporary" 07:25:45 After some time, they die 07:25:46 alternatively, an extremely straightforward language where nearly all remembering is done as part of learning it 07:25:48 But they're dying too soon 07:25:51 designed to be easy for humans to use 07:25:59 They're dying too soon 07:26:08 Sgeo: why not make them something other than temporary? 07:26:09 monqy, which language is that 07:26:11 Disabling the temporary might mean accidentally leaving litter all over the place 07:26:25 CakeProphet, I'll probably set them up to respond to a simwide command to die 07:26:31 Vorpal: purely hypothetical, as far as I know :( 07:26:49 monqy, ah. a language with really crazy flow and necessitation of a lot of memory <-- that one likely does exist though 07:26:50 Sgeo: is it you that enjoys MUDs/text-based-games? 07:27:07 SL isn't text-based 07:27:11 I know. 07:27:14 sgeo is the virtual worlds guy 07:27:18 he enjoys virtual worlds 07:27:20 monqy, I would suggest something based on malbolge 07:27:28 Sgeo: do you enjoy MUDs? 07:27:39 since they are very much like virtual worlds. 07:27:39 CakeProphet, MUSHes, a little 07:27:41 and MOOs 07:27:47 Sgeo, what about table top rpgs? 07:27:54 Sgeo: well, right, I use MUD as a general term for all of those things. 07:27:54 Vorpal, I do like Paranoia 07:27:59 oh my 07:28:16 Sgeo, what about the classical ADnD? 07:28:21 the problem with MUSH is it has awful syntax. MOO is a little better. 07:28:44 s/n/\&/ 07:28:51 does malbolge have crazy control flow 07:29:00 monqy, very. Check the esolang wiki 07:29:03 ooh 07:29:18 Paranioa? 07:29:19 CakeProphet, I like MOO coding, at least from what I understand of it, but LambdaMOO may as well be dead, there's no one there 07:29:22 Paranoia* 07:29:25 Vorpal: no need to escape things in the replacement string of a substition. ;) 07:29:26 The RPG? 07:29:30 Oh, yes. 07:29:30 Lymia, yes 07:29:33 I should host that. 07:29:34 :D 07:29:41 CakeProphet, you fail at sed 07:29:48 CakeProphet, & means "the match" 07:30:01 CakeProphet, so *yes* I need to escape it 07:30:05 Vorpal: so..... s/n/n/? 07:30:17 CakeProphet, that is what s/n/&/ would do yes 07:30:23 ah. 07:30:25 CakeProphet, which is quite pointless 07:30:28 yes. 07:30:58 yes, I do fail at sed. Because I use Perl instead. oh ho! 07:31:12 master of rhyme. 07:31:20 ooh "Set code pointer to the value pointed to by the current data pointer." always good 07:31:41 variable goto considered harmful 07:32:11 monqy, malbolge still? 07:32:17 malbolge always 07:32:35 Patashu, you are talking about malbolge. I would just say "malbolge considered harmful" 07:32:51 is there variable goto in non-malbolge languages? 07:33:06 gcc c has it 07:33:20 Patashu, most assemblers have it 07:33:27 thought so 07:33:31 indirect jump or so 07:34:20 ridiculous continuation usage such as to emulate variable goto 07:34:28 a favorite pasttime 07:34:37 ew 07:36:49 the fakest thing in the world is freddiew beating stacker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_NiwPz-MQ 07:37:20 My terminal velocity hypothesis is slowly being debunked 07:41:17 Sgeo, so Second Life does inverse square law? 07:41:41 Lymia, wasn't trying to measure that 07:41:58 Wasn't taking notes on exact velocities either 07:52:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:01:42 I enjoy this IOCCC entry: http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2000/primenum.c 08:03:31 though it's not very obfuscated... 08:19:32 CakeProphet, I like the one that is shaped like an aircraft 08:19:32 OR IS IT? 08:19:36 forgot which year 08:19:57 that is some absurd timing. Quiet for many minutes, and then we spoke within a second of each othjer 08:20:00 other* 08:20:05 1998 08:20:12 it's a flight simulator. 08:20:32 CakeProphet, calling it a simulator is stretching it 08:21:00 CakeProphet, I mean, it doesn't even stall. Or behave reasonably in any way 08:21:12 well... I don't actually run any of this code I just go by the description. 08:21:14 http://www0.us.ioccc.org/1994/schnitzi.c 08:21:20 this is by far my favorite one that I've seen so far. 08:22:16 it opens a file and mirrors it along a diagonal. Running it on itself produces a program that does the same thing. 08:25:59 wow, that's neat 08:28:24 my thoughts too 08:28:26 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:28:53 though I don't believe running it a second time will work. 08:29:07 according to the .hint file 08:31:55 well no, that would be impossible I think. applying the program twice to itself should produce the original. I think I misread. 08:32:09 ah, it's not perfectly symmetrical. 08:33:12 -!- olsner_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:49:46 Oh hey, the author of that program lives in Marietta, GA too 08:50:19 I wonder if he still does. 09:01:11 heh, there's an entry that is: #include "/dev/tty" 09:01:32 won best abuse of the rules. 09:05:39 nice 09:16:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:16:41 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:22:05 -!- myndzi has joined. 09:25:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:25:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:28:18 CakeProphet, so... 09:28:21 It's a C compiler? 09:28:21 =p 09:31:56 CakeProphet, link to the /dev/tty thing? 09:31:59 Also, the rule added to stop it. 09:32:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 09:33:04 Lymia: http://www0.us.ioccc.org/1988/spinellis.hint 09:33:20 ...change .hint to .c to see the source code. But I have no idea why you would do that since I told you what it was. 09:34:13 wait 09:34:17 #include "/dev/tty" 09:34:18 ... 09:34:19 oh my god 09:34:22 it includes whatever you type 09:34:30 Yes. 09:34:33 O_O 09:39:29 -!- Tritonio has joined. 09:51:40 `run head -c 10 /dev/random 09:51:44 No output. 09:51:52 `run ls /dev/random 09:51:54 No output. 09:52:55 aw 09:54:10 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:56:26 CakeProphet, hm, the IOCCC is dead now however? 09:56:27 what other horrible things could you include 09:56:33 include a socket, have C code streamed from other computer? 09:56:44 Patashu, #include "/dev/urandom" 09:56:49 thought of that 09:56:52 but it'd never generate code 09:56:54 or end for that matter 09:56:54 wait, no, it cannot be used 09:56:55 yes 09:57:26 I often sit and stare at /dev/urandom seeing if it will ever output a C program... 09:57:36 can you include a named pipe? 09:58:02 CakeProphet: but all it does is perl, right? 09:58:16 lol 10:02:08 but it'd never generate code 10:02:09 well 10:02:16 unlikely 10:02:19 'never' 10:02:20 but it *could* happen 10:02:21 you know what I mean 10:02:36 Patashu, I'm still catting it waiting to get a free copy of every book written 10:02:47 how would you know when you had it? 10:02:48 it would be interesting to attempt to express as a probability. 10:02:52 also, extremely complicated. 10:03:07 Patashu, well, some sort of sense when interpreting it as ascii? ;P 10:03:20 what's the shortest possible C program? 10:03:35 with some compilers the null string is an acceptable C program. 10:03:41 & 10:03:43 er 10:03:47 what he said. 10:03:55 i was gonna do ^ :p 10:04:25 otherwise I think it would be like... 10:04:40 int main(); 10:04:41 ? 10:04:44 no. 10:05:03 it needs to have -something-, right? 10:05:04 you'd basically just declare an empty main. 10:05:21 int main(){return 0;} 10:05:22 CakeProphet, const char main[] = "\0"; <-- likely to segfault 10:05:23 no it can be empty I believe. Just { } 10:05:31 if it even compiles 10:05:37 doesn't it -have- to return something? guess it depends on the standard 10:05:57 Patashu, main? not in C99. Then main has an implicit return 0 at the end 10:06:02 stupid change IMO 10:06:22 can't main be void as well? 10:06:43 CakeProphet, not in standard C afaik 10:08:05 this might be of interest: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Timeout 10:08:20 according to whatever (probably extremely lax) compiler golf.shinh.org uses, this is a valid C program 10:08:24 main=-277; 10:08:33 and so is this 10:08:33 main='\xfe\xeb'; 10:08:42 > (1/256)**(length "int main {}") 10:08:43 No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int) 10:08:43 arising from a use of... 10:08:51 bah 10:08:58 > (length "int main {}") 10:08:59 11 10:09:06 > (1/256)**11 10:09:07 3.2311742677852644e-27 10:10:19 there is your probability of randomly picking 11 bytes and getting that string. 10:11:41 however, if you combine that probability with several hundred variations of short C programs you might get some more reasonable odds. 10:12:14 http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/programming/zipperfs 10:12:26 but anything more than a few bytes becomes effectively indistinguishable from 0 10:12:39 "one can cd into a lambda-term in bash." 10:12:41 wtf 10:12:45 > ((1/) . genericLength . group . sort $ "int main {}") ^ (length "int main {}") 10:12:47 1.1641532182693481e-10 10:13:22 Deewiant: hmmm? 10:13:48 Patashu, so, wait. 10:13:51 CakeProphet: Filtering out bytes that don't exist in "int main {}" 10:13:57 You could submit a string that looks like main='[binary blob]'; 10:14:18 And.. win. 10:14:19 With C. 10:14:20 Deewiant: er, why? 10:14:25 well, of course 10:14:26 good luck 10:15:21 CakeProphet: Just to see how much it would increase the odds 10:15:35 ah okay. 10:16:20 > (1/256)^(length "main=-277;") 10:16:21 8.271806125530277e-25 10:17:10 so yeah, effectively not ever going to happen. 10:17:54 > ((^).(1/).genericLength.nub)<*>length $ "main=-277;" 10:17:56 2.8679719907924403e-10 10:18:37 perhaps the odds of generating /any/ valid C program is significant... but still most valid C programs are going to have /tiny/ probabilities of occuring randomly, so I don't think their summation will be much better. 10:19:44 What about the odds of getting any valid Perl program? 10:19:48 10:20:33 considering it's based entirely on program length there's probably a better chance because Perl has a larger number of valid, small programs. 10:20:44 still very small though. 10:20:47 Did this conversation start on Reddit? I remember seeing something like this before 10:21:04 No this conversation started with weird #includes 10:22:17 Weird #includes were mentioned on Reddit 10:22:20 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:22:23 how the fuck: 10:22:24 ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ cat /dev/urandom | strings | tr "\n" " " | while read -d -n1 s; do echo -n $s; sleep 0.1; done 10:22:24 ,J[g? 3 +! ?krNQAudiobooks Desktop Documents Downloads imazing Music Pictures Podcasts Public Templates Ubuntu One VideosR ML7AkM:X %X_8Pl OC@U #D| 10:22:41 Moth decided to fly into my eye 10:24:51 lolwhut 10:25:05 if "$s" happens to be "*", echo $s will list all non-dot files in current dir. 10:25:25 ah, yes. 10:25:50 ahhh 10:26:07 how do i prevent it from happening? 10:26:21 echo -n "$s", perhaps. 10:26:23 echo -n "$s" 10:26:44 does "$s" not fix it? 10:26:54 or is globbing still on with double quotes? 10:27:32 seems to have worked 10:27:44 indeed. 10:27:48 `run ls "*" 10:27:50 No output. 10:28:08 `run ls "*" 2>&1 10:28:10 ​/bin/ls: cannot access *: No such file or directory 10:32:31 btw /dev/urandom is quite good at generating befunge programs 10:32:46 :P 10:33:34 `run echo * 10:33:35 ​1 babies bin bluhbluh env foo paste ps quine.pl quine2.pl quine3.pl quotes quotese tekst tmpdir.11854 Ñ‚ÑкÑÑ‚ 10:59:06 `run cat quine3.pl 10:59:07 ​syntax error at quine3.pl line 2, at EOF. \ Execution of quine3.pl aborted due to compilation errors.. 10:59:13 `run cat quine2.pl 10:59:15 ​#!/bin/perl \ open 0; print while <0> 10:59:18 `run cat quine1.pl 10:59:20 No output. 10:59:25 `run cat quine.pl 10:59:27 ​open 0; print <0> 11:02:08 what happens if a control character is in a befunge program? 11:02:13 compile fail? interpreter fail? ignored? 11:02:21 no compiler rather 11:02:29 well, maybe 'when loaded into memory' fail 11:02:36 Patashu, it reflects off it when running 11:02:40 really? 11:03:15 yes 11:03:24 how come though? I guess it's a good behaviour for \0 11:03:35 Invalid commands do that 11:03:39 yeah 11:03:59 I'm not sure if any interpreter does UTF-8, if so I guess you could get invalid code points 11:04:02 other than that however 11:06:12 Patashu, I used somewhat filtered output from /dev/urandom for fuzz testing. Filtered to reduce reflecting since I wanted to test the behaviour of actual commands. Found a few crash bugs that way (division by zero in a fingerprint, and a few other things) 11:06:22 does befunge expect windows or unix style line breaks? 11:06:29 vorpal: yeah that's a good use of it 11:06:34 Patashu, both! 11:06:38 Patashu, mac style too 11:06:46 does it look at the first one it finds and use that? 11:07:02 Mixed should work 11:07:06 mixed works 11:07:09 yeah 11:07:18 ah ok 11:08:08 Patashu, for cfunge at least the only way you can get a loading error would be a system call for reading failing. Since it uses mmap it couldn't use /dev/urandom directly (you can't mmap character devices) 11:08:21 oh and out of memory I guess for too large program 11:09:20 also mmap is nice. That way you don't have to deal with newlines split across fgets() chunks and so on 11:09:26 (for the \r\n case) 11:09:53 it's amazing how something as simple as how to break up lines is done differently on every OS 11:10:20 well the mac case doesn't apply on OS X iirc 11:10:25 only on older mac os 11:12:51 Deewiant, does ccbi handle unicode for the source? 11:13:05 Old versions did, not currently 11:13:11 Deewiant, how comes? 11:13:41 Because I read the spec as disallowing unicode 11:13:48 (past tense) 11:14:13 ah 11:14:21 Deewiant, you used to argue otherwise 11:14:54 Like I just said, I used to think Unicode isn't allowed and now I think it is :-P 11:15:32 Deewiant, hm, but isn't there a limit to the largest character constant allowed in source 11:15:46 some very large value 11:16:00 2^31-1 yes 11:16:18 Deewiant, ah yes that doesn't completely cover unicode does it? 11:16:42 0x10ffff covers practically all unicode you'll run into 11:16:51 Deewiant, but not the complete unicode 11:18:04 I forget how exactly 0x110000 and upwards works 11:18:24 Is it closer to user-defined or undefined by Unicode 11:18:28 isn't the private use area up there somehow 11:18:31 somewhere* 11:19:00 0x100000 - 0x10fffd is private use 11:19:51 I'm pretty sure that 110000 and upwards is not part of unicode 11:20:08 Of course you can encode it with UTF-any and use it internally but you can't call it unicode anymore 11:20:12 Not completely sure though 11:20:19 hm 11:20:43 But in any case, you can always map anything up to 0xffffffff to the corresponding 32-bit signed integer and thus never break the rule of "no larger than 2^31-1" ;-) 11:21:15 true 11:21:17 which will we run out of first, unicode addresses or ipv6 addresses? 11:21:50 the "burn rates" are very different. 11:21:52 hard to tell 11:22:09 although I suspect unicode will be replaced before ipv6 is replaced 11:30:57 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:31:03 -!- clog has joined. 11:36:05 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:39:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:53:15 -!- ralc has joined. 12:05:19 -!- ralc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:19:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:20:17 Huh. That's strange. 12:20:50 As I approach the point where gravity starts working again, when I give the object weight..... gravity starts to affect it, just a little, then stops 12:21:58 SL edge case testing? 12:24:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:29:43 Not helping is the fact that I'm not 100% sure if the function I'm using to scale down gravity actually scales down gravity 12:40:20 My previous points about gravity, that it does take longer to take effect at higher altitudes 12:40:31 Well, this new experiment seems to be in conflict with that 12:48:03 Time to start doing an automated binary search for the minimum gravity that stays active 12:50:36 -!- Kustas has joined. 12:51:07 -!- Kustas has quit (Client Quit). 12:52:28 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Andrei_Machine_9000 12:53:08 Help me figure this out. 12:53:09 D: 13:02:39 -!- Kustas has joined. 13:03:06 -!- Kustas has quit (Client Quit). 13:03:59 Lymia: it's like a massively more complex version of Eodermdrome 13:05:08 also, that syntax is insane 13:05:19 I notice the example only uses the wimpmode syntax, which isn't fully general 13:05:21 Show suitable is it for making a golfing contest around? 13:05:31 if you want to go mad I guess 13:05:35 So* 13:05:45 So is it suitable for making a golfing contest around* 13:06:11 * Lymia needs sleep... 13:06:15 Lymia, that was some weird typos yeah 13:06:52 I'm not sure what I was thinking.... 13:07:10 ais523, how hard is it to implement? 13:07:10 ais523, wimpmode? I don't see any mention of that in the article 13:07:24 Lymia: really nasty 13:07:29 pattern-matching on graphs always is 13:07:33 Golfing contest nasty? 13:07:42 Vorpal: the alternative syntax for graphs 13:07:42 you'd have to be mad to codegolf that 13:07:45 Lymia: no, worse 13:07:53 the sort of thing where getting a working program at all would take hours or days 13:08:11 oklopol could probably do it in a few hours, but lesser mortals like me would take ages 13:08:14 ais523, that is. a contest to make an implementation of it. 13:08:21 oh, an implementation of it 13:08:27 hm 13:08:30 Lymia: writing in it looks like it would be easier than implementing it 13:09:33 ais523, so if I asked you to golf it... 13:09:39 Lymia, would you make a contest to make a befunge-98 interpreter with all the fingerprints ccbi implements, including TRDS? 13:09:50 well okay, that would be even harder. 13:10:10 Vorpal: I'd say implementing TRDS would be easier than AM9K, but take longer 13:10:16 as in, it's more obvious how to go about it and what to do 13:10:16 ais523, heh 13:10:20 true 13:10:23 but there's more work involved 13:10:38 ais523, aren't there any good algorithms for pattern matching on graphs? 13:10:44 that you could simply make use of 13:10:51 Hah! Minimum absolute gravity IS altitude dependent! 13:10:52 I don't know 13:11:14 but the particular sort of pattern matching involved there could match several independent parts of the graph 13:11:20 I wouldn't be surprised if it was NP-complete or worse 13:11:26 ah 13:11:47 and a programming language where every independent step of execution is NP-complete is going to be a pain to implement, and very slow even if you manage it 13:11:54 huh. Why did the lamp and the external monitor suddenly flicker. 13:12:20 no change to the laptop's internal monitor. 13:12:29 thunderstorm maybe. hrrm. 13:13:02 ais523, I need a reference implementation. Keep it secret. 13:13:05 ais523, why is it that thunderstorms can cause electric devices to flicker? 13:13:13 Lymia, make it yourself? 13:13:16 Vorpal: because they disrupt the power supply 13:13:16 k 13:13:30 ais523, hm, how? induction? 13:13:36 no, lightning hitting power cables 13:13:43 or outdoor transformers 13:13:49 that has a noticeable effect on things like the voltage 13:13:54 must be quite some way from here though. No thunder sound 13:14:08 sometimes during a thunderstorm the power companies have to switch between main and backup circuits a lot 13:14:14 ah 13:14:15 and they often have slightly different voltages 13:14:47 ais523, is that done automatically? The switching I mean. 13:15:06 Vorpal: I thin kso 13:15:07 *think so 13:15:59 ais523, how damaging is it to electronics? 13:16:06 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache < zzo, you... 13:16:18 it varies on what those electronics are 13:16:36 things that are sensitive often have extra circuitry to filter out unexpected voltage changes 13:16:37 ais523, computers, TFT-monitors, that sort of stuff 13:17:03 and you can get "surge protectors" that do the filtering themselves (they tend to filter out not just surges but spikes and similar issues) 13:17:22 hm 13:18:22 Lymia, fun that it is implemented! 13:18:52 ais523, should probably get a surge protector at some point. Cheaper than an UPS surely? 13:19:01 yep, pretty cheap 13:19:10 you can get them crossed with multi-way power strips 13:19:54 I looked at UPSes but most of the capacity that would be useful to me seems to have internal fans or suchlike. 13:20:04 and I aim for a quiet environment 13:23:47 http://esolangs.org/wiki/MONOD < Let's start a golf contest for this. 13:24:16 I remember that one 13:24:17 It's great 13:44:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:50:40 -!- nooga has joined. 13:50:46 aaaaaaaaaaargh 13:51:02 How do I binary search on a value that, each comparision, comes out differently? 13:51:07 This is nuts 13:51:14 Of course, I'd have to find a range or something 13:51:28 Sgeo: that's nuts :D 13:51:37 although i have still pondered the problem 13:52:20 (basically, my idea was never to do a comparison that could contradict a previous one) 13:53:02 I NEED TO CODE SOMETHING INNOVATIVE OR ELSE I WILL DIE 13:53:19 which i think binary search usually does. actually i think i pondered the more tricky problem of doing that while _sorting_ 13:53:52 (still possible, i believe) 13:55:02 oerjan, by comparision, I mean determining whether the value is higher or lower than my current estimate. I can't know what the value is, and the value keeps changing. 13:55:13 maybe umm... regex jit compiler (optimizing) 13:55:46 in fact you might think one criterion of an efficient sorting algorithm would be that it does just that... never gives the comparisons a chance to contradict themselves, because that means you knew what the answer should be and not every comparison can then give information 13:55:54 *that would mean 13:56:02 nooga, why would you die 13:56:03 nooga: program a shell optimizer 13:56:17 that sees things like sort | head, and uses a different version of sort that goes O(n) rather than O(n log n) in that case 13:56:19 Sgeo: well are you trying to constantly change your estimate, and it changes only slightly each time? 13:56:33 *the actual value only 13:56:45 so it's a what, a fuzzy binary sort? 13:56:47 I don't know how much the actual value changes 13:56:48 Vorpal: my tasks are so mind numbing that i can feel a constant loss of grey matter 13:56:55 could you take the average of N samples? 13:57:04 Patashu: search, but yeah that sounds like it 13:57:05 nooga, do what ais523 said 13:57:11 yeah search I mean 13:57:19 With the naive binary search I've been doing, I got 0.003125 and 0.006250 13:57:28 thunderstorm near 13:57:29 cya 13:57:30 Wildly different answers as far as I'm concerned 13:58:00 I don't know if just continuing to do this, and averaging, will.. do anything useful 13:58:15 Well you have a rough estimate 13:58:18 that sees things like sort | head, and uses a different version [...] <-- i thought it was possible to make a sort which did that automatically if cut off, see ghc's sort 13:58:21 Why not take samples around that range 13:58:23 ais523: a bit crazy ;] 13:58:23 graph it and look at the graph 13:58:41 oerjan: it may be, but I think that relies on the way Haskell does laziness 13:58:49 and the way UNIX pipes do laziness isn't good enough 13:59:11 does ghc's lazy sort work in every single way? could I ask for element number 8 and it would optimize around that? 13:59:16 or the last element 13:59:31 And quite frankly, all I want to know is if two of these values, one at one altitude and one at the other, are equal or not 13:59:40 Ooh, statistics time blargh 13:59:51 Sgeo: hm i guess this is a distribution finding problem restricted by your only being able to get one bit of information on each sample 14:00:10 Minimum Absolute Gravity was so much easier. At a lower altitude I got 0 always, higher altitude non-0 14:00:12 i cannot say i recall seeing that :P 14:00:13 oerjan, yes 14:00:22 finding the eighth highest element is as computationally difficult as finding all the first eight, isn't it? 14:00:35 I -think- so 14:00:36 unless you know in advance the length of the list and it's less than fifteen members long? 14:00:55 ais523: sounds reasonable, but i don't know 14:01:25 if you somehow proved seven numbers are higher than it and no others are without sorting those then that would do 14:01:29 but how would that even work, quicksort-ish? 14:01:46 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:02:16 it seems possible to set up but too edge case-y 14:02:25 Patashu: you mean verifying that a number is the 8th highest in a list, rather than finding the 8th highest? 14:02:34 Sgeo: i vaguely recall something about order statistics which are used for comparing two completely unknown (but continuous) distributions 14:02:36 hrm... 14:03:09 Ugh, there are at least two different qays to ask "Is gravity working or not", and they give different answers. I just thought of a third. 14:03:16 *ways 14:03:29 Why does secondlife implement gravity to such a level 14:03:37 Really bored techies? 14:03:41 Well, not ways, so much as "what do you mean by 'working'"? 14:04:05 -!- TOGoS has joined. 14:04:05 I'm almost certain that it's just edge cases not being considered 14:04:15 Maybe you should file a bug report 14:04:23 FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY I CAN'T IMPLEMENT MY SPACE STATION LIKE THIS 14:05:02 And quite frankly, all I want to know is if two of these values, one at one altitude and one at the other, are equal or not <-- are both random and changing? if so you cannot do much more than getting a heap of comparisons between them, can you... but that could still be enough to check statistically what you want 14:05:09 I just want to know why gravity sometimes starts then stops. 14:05:15 If it's low enough 14:05:22 floating point rounding errors? 14:05:29 ais523, probably 14:05:35 But I want to know the exact nature of these 14:06:36 And by probably, I mean yes, I'm almost certain that's what's going on, and that's what I want to understand better. 14:07:26 perhaps they're actually using a random algorithm for small values >:) 14:07:31 lol 14:07:50 it might be some kind of multithreading race condition that makes it essentially random 14:08:41 like if gravity is 0.5 of what is needed to go one minimal step each time unit, then it does so randomly half the time 14:08:42 I think it's more likely that the physical framerate keeps changing 14:09:12 The unit of time is dependent on how laggy the server is. 14:09:58 ouch 14:16:07 Maybe Havok documentation has all the answers or something, and I should just go read it 14:18:07 Havok documentation is behind a paywall 14:18:09 * Sgeo sads 14:21:18 Maybe if I try the experiment in a less laggy place, I'll get similar results more consistently? 14:22:13 presumably 14:44:00 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:46:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:49:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:56:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:00:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:04:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:05:16 Is there a name for a function similar to call/cc except it never returns? 15:25:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:25:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:25:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:27:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:27:49 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 15:27:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:30:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:39:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:49:28 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:54:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:57:06 What kind of measurement of the size of a program can you use? * Bytes * Lines * Pages * Semicolons * Tokens * Executable file size 15:58:36 -!- TOGoS has left. 15:58:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:05:07 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:05:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:09:32 Depends on what you're using the measurement for. 16:12:13 But what kind of ideas you have for what measurement, and what it can be used for? I am thinking generally just to see a measure of how large that a large program is. 16:14:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:14:48 Hmm, I wonder... 16:14:49 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 16:17:00 * Sgeo lays out the syntax he's been imagining for his language 16:17:12 @messages 16:17:12 You don't have any new messages. 16:17:17 :( 16:17:37 https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/secondlifescripters/2011-June/006245.html 16:17:46 Erg, wow, I should have used pastie 16:19:39 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:27:02 GGGGC: Seemingly consistently faster than Java's GC? :) 16:27:28 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:28:55 Gregor, ooh cool. 16:29:31 Gregor, how did you test it? Using the same code but with java's gc and then with yours? 16:31:37 Using Boehm's GCBench as well as binary trees. It's not really fair since Java is JITting and I'm not, but the code is trivial here so hopefully the GC is the biggest price. 16:31:47 -!- zzo38 has left. 16:34:00 Going to ISMM this year gave me two good ideas, both of which helped :) 16:43:01 I have not the slightest idea how to make something into an AST 16:43:30 Or even enough Javascript to visualize what an AST looks like in Javascript 16:43:50 ... uhhh, that's pretty sad? 16:44:03 It... doesn't seem that complex. 16:44:12 It's not. 16:45:07 http://pastie.org/private/hf2bkigtu21ciny5oso3a acceptable syntax or nightmare from hell syntax? 16:45:39 And semantics 16:50:34 Sgeo, what language is that? 16:50:43 Phantom_Hoover, the language I want to make 16:50:54 Why the pipes? 16:51:30 Inspired by Fancy lambdas, which are kind of like Ruby lambdas except with the arguments on the outside of the {} 16:51:38 Why, do the pipes suck? 16:51:49 Is function(){} better? 16:51:58 No, they just confused me. 16:52:23 But yeah, that doesn't look impossible to ASTify. 16:53:12 But does it look like a decent language to work with? That is, should I not be shot for making it? 16:53:35 GO 16:54:10 Sgeo, dunno about that; ask elliott if you want a 'yes'. 16:54:25 Erm, 'yes you should be shot'. 16:54:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:55:04 {x y z: something something something} 16:55:20 .......ooooooooohhhhhhh 16:55:44 Wait, but then, I can't have the { on a separate line after the arguments 16:56:06 Hmm, not sure how important tha is to me 16:56:14 a matter of style 16:56:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:01:26 -!- olsner has joined. 17:11:28 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 17:13:57 full grammar for PCRE is probably longer than a full grammar for ANSI C 17:14:12 so KISS 17:14:51 PCRE? 17:15:21 This language is not a regex. 17:17:15 can you write a PCRE that matches all PCRE:s? 17:17:36 I assume so. 17:17:48 Wait, maybe not. 17:18:27 PCREs can't match things recursively, can they? 17:18:43 PCRE is TC. 17:18:51 I kind of thought PCRE:s were even turing complete (or whatever the corresponding term is for grammars, fully recursive?) 17:19:01 and there pikhq said it too, proof? 17:20:04 http://big-o.nl/apps/pcreparser/pcre/PCREParser.html#name.grammar 17:20:07 this is not all 17:20:15 only a subset ;o 17:21:37 -!- elliott has joined. 17:22:10 Hi elliott 17:22:22 I posted a sample of the language I'm imagining. 17:23:01 oh joy 17:23:01 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 17:23:07 oh joy 17:23:12 oh joy 17:23:16 elliott is here 17:24:06 yeah 17:24:10 i'm always here 17:24:35 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snack 17:24:39 this fucking shit should be illegal 17:25:02 elliott: the TURKEY BOMB style of esolanging, except not innovative or interesting in any way? 17:25:03 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 17:25:07 @messages 17:25:07 Phantom_Hoover said 56m 57s ago: Here you go. 17:25:17 ais523: hey, you didnt follow the instructions 17:25:23 [asterisk]didn't 17:25:25 ah no, more like Deadfish 17:25:29 and I'm a rebel in that way 17:26:08 "SIMPLE Interpreter:" 17:26:10 What. 17:26:40 Suggest we all gang up on SmallBug. 17:26:45 wait, that language is actually worse than DeadFish 17:27:30 Therefore, it will have more implementations than DeadFish? 17:27:36 I hope not 17:27:48 Phantom_Hoover: Now now, they clearly do not understand what they are doing. 17:27:54 at least DeadFish was a) aware it was possible, and b) almost interesting 17:27:55 I have helpfully clarified on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Snack. 17:28:27 between this and NetFuck, we sure are getting a lot of dreck today 17:28:31 erm, nowadays 17:28:51 Esme... makes no sense to me 17:28:57 ais523: that interpreter is ... interesting 17:29:02 wtf did "stack" come from? 17:29:16 oh, and I'm not sure cin >> stringvar actually works as expected 17:29:21 Sgeo, fun fact: my first significant conversation on #esoteric was confirming that I didn't make Esme. 17:29:29 elliott: if it's a std::string, I think it does 17:29:32 lol 17:29:35 or at least, it does something moderately sane 17:29:50 I'd like to read that log 17:29:56 hmm, I think Dagoth may have made Esme just to troll zzo38 17:29:59 I'm adding Category:Shameful. 17:30:04 Phantom_Hoover: don't 17:30:12 elliott, why, wrath of graue? 17:30:13 the more it's used the more diluted it gets 17:30:34 I removed it from a bunch of pages a while ago because of that 17:30:38 It's only used on FURscript and Esme. 17:30:40 elliott: that one almost deserves shameful, but I'm not quite sure 17:30:46 ais523: yes, it's definitely close 17:30:47 it needs category:languages, anyway 17:30:48 And you just called it the worst language on the wiki. 17:31:05 the whole point of shameful is that it's rare enough that people wouldn't determine its existence 17:31:06 I think we'll have to see what SmallBug does next to decide, we must be cautious with this important task of ours 17:31:19 (and I'd definitely delete the category description page if someone created one, it doesn't work if it isn't a redlink) 17:31:31 ais523: re: troll zzo, [[Talk:Esme]] is a pretty funny page 17:31:41 elliott: I know, that's what I was referring to 17:31:56 10.01.12:11:57:27 The sysrq key? ↠this was honestly the first thing I said in-channel. 17:32:16 hmm, the stub template on [[Hashes]] implies that we actually want someone to expand it 17:32:20 I find this quite a dangerous remark to have 17:32:32 (diff) (hist) . . Language list‎; 17:28 . . (-12) . . Phantom Hoover (Talk | contribs) (Undo revision 23225 by Special:Contributions/SmallBug (User talk:SmallBug) No. Just no.) 17:32:34 Expansion can only be interesting. 17:32:35 Phantom_Hoover: that was unwarranted 17:32:48 :[~~~~K] $[L.~K] -> Q !L <- Q 17:33:32 * elliott categorises 17:33:46 elliott: wrt your rvv edit summary, it's referring to novelty contact lenses designed to make your eyes look different as part of a halloween costume 17:33:58 ais523: yes, but what a thing to spam a wiki with 17:34:11 well, generic spam won't get very far, you'll just be outspammed 17:34:12 it's obviously a wiki spambot/person, because it used the correct syntax 17:34:19 highly specific spam is more likely to get the results you want 17:34:23 you know 17:34:29 ais523: I suppose it's just trying to get the googlejuice 17:34:34 but what wiki doesn't use nofollow? 17:34:48 the latest trick is creating thousands of different domains, each optimised for a slightly different query 17:34:53 and making them all soft-redirects to your actual site 17:35:08 well, there are probably later tricks I don't know about 17:35:17 I just consider that one particularly ridiculous 17:36:08 when i was 12 and tried to learn Delphi, my idea of perfect computer language was that it would let me to easily write a tetris clone with constructs like: make green rectangle, move rectangle etc. 17:36:38 elliott, if FURscript is shameful, then Snack is unquestionably shameful. 17:37:11 probably inventor of FURscript was 13 when he invented it and now he's ashamed 17:37:34 Phantom_Hoover: have you /seen/ FURscript? 17:37:42 [DIRFORMAT="DIRECTORY","BYPASSSECURITY?"] FORMATS A DRIVE AND ASKS WHETHER TO BYPASS ALL RESTRICTIONS 17:37:43 elliott, I just did. 17:38:07 heh, the WRITE command has different syntax 17:38:23 BASIC fan probably 17:38:32 elliott maybe 17:38:40 olsner: ? 17:38:53 elliott: hmm, given that it's formatting a drive but given a dir as an argument, I wonder if it's intended for POSIXy systems? 17:38:53 elliott: I was suggesting that you invented furscript 17:39:09 the only plausible way I can think of to specify a drive using a directory is to specify mountpoint 17:39:16 ais523: considering that the compiler was to be written in VB6, I doubt it 17:39:17 (see talk page) 17:39:21 ais523: and C:\ 17:39:23 D:\ 17:39:23 etc. 17:39:26 "The structure is based off a mix of html, turbo pascal, and BASIC." <-- rright 17:39:46 It is, of course, unrelated to FurryScript. --Zzo38 18:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC) 17:40:09 ais523: have we moved over to Timwi's server yet? 17:40:14 I'm not keeping track of these thing 17:40:15 s 17:40:35 elliott: not as far as I know 17:40:39 :D 17:41:06 Timwi offered a server? 17:41:15 Did he win the NetFuck prize? 17:41:16 Phantom_Hoover: no, he "offered" to take over 17:41:20 because Graue is such a terrible person 17:41:20 "but I think he got as far as a text box and a copyright notice before going back to programming his graphics calculator. " 17:41:27 I loved TI-BASIC 17:41:29 (because Graue wouldn't respond to his email asking for sysop rights) 17:41:32 I'm offended. 17:41:37 elliott, where. 17:41:45 Wait, is it TI-BASIC? 17:41:51 Phantom_Hoover: FFS, it's in the logs, stop expecting me to know where something happened. 17:42:22

Copyright (C) Alex Smith 2011

17:42:32 ais523: wat 17:42:43 elliott, since Gregor stopped updating the codu HG logs, I haven't had searchable logs. 17:43:05 Phantom_Hoover: How does this relate to me having to nkow where every damn thing happened? 17:43:11 Besides, get the rsync glogbot logs. 17:43:13 That's what they're for. 17:43:18 elliott: it's a text box and a copyright notice 17:43:21 Oh, right. 17:43:23 I'm not sure if it actually /works/, though 17:43:27 ais523: heh 17:43:34 FWIW, there is no indication anywhere that they exist. 17:43:46 and that textarea syntax is really old-fashioned 17:43:50 because I learnt HTML far too long ago 17:44:01 Phantom_Hoover: there is in glogbot's help message 17:44:09 would you like it to spam the channel at regular intervals instead? 17:44:18 !logs 17:44:22 try it 17:44:42 ais523: AFAIK that's the current textarea syntax 17:44:48 whoa, really? 17:44:55 ais523: well, except that not doing it with CSS probably makes you a bad person 17:44:59 I at least expected the dimensions to be done with CSS nowadays 17:45:08 I'll check the spec 17:45:11 elliott, no, but I would like it if it indicated their existence in the page on codu, or in the topic of #glogbot. 17:45:14 and I hate that syntax because it basically means you have to guess the browser user's screen width and font size 17:45:21 rather than having it become a sensible size automatically 17:45:32 no wonder browsers are offering resizable textboxes as a feature nowadays 17:45:40 glogbot has a channel? 17:45:44 ais523: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#the-textarea-element 17:45:55 yep, rows and cols still exist 17:46:02 and don't appera to be deprecated, either 17:46:05 [asterisk]appear 17:46:10 but ofc, there's basically no reason not to use CSS instead 17:46:11 Fucking HTML. 17:46:11 Oh, and the rsync command provided doesn't actually work. 17:46:25 Phantom_Hoover: topic of glogbot: 17:46:27 "See !glogbot_help for how to use it." 17:46:29 !glogbot_help 17:46:32 -glogbot- glogbot is a logging bot. Source: https://codu.org/projects/stuff/logbothg/ . Anyone may request that glogbot log their channel by inviting it: /invite glogbot . This usually requires ops. It will stop logging a channel if kicked: /kick glogbot . If you cannot /invite or /kick it, you can also ask Gregor to add or remove your channel. See also !glogbot_cmds, !logs . 17:46:37 WHOOPS TURNS OUT IT DOES GIVE YOU THAT INFORMATION 17:46:43 And the rsync command does work, you fucked it up. Quit whining. 17:46:46 "If the cols attribute is specified, its value must be a valid non-negative integer greater than zero. If applying the rules for parsing non-negative integers to the attribute's value results in a number greater than zero, then the element's character width is that value; otherwise, it is 20." 17:46:47 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:47:02 how arbitrary 17:47:06 elliott, I copied and pasted it from glogbot's own message. 17:47:09 ais523: how is that arbitrary? 17:47:13 it's just handling a parse error 17:47:16 Phantom_Hoover: you fucked it up. 17:47:24 elliott: wouldn't it make more sense to treat the attribute as not there 17:47:30 rather than picking 20 for the width out of thin air? 17:47:31 elliott, "rsync --size-only -avz rsync://codu.org/logs/glogbot/ logs/" 17:47:36 ais523: 20 is the default width if it's not specified 17:47:40 ouch 17:47:40 ais523: so it /does/ act like it's not there 17:47:43 for a multiline text box? 17:47:49 ais523: hysterical raisins 17:47:51 Please tell me a) where that is fucked up and b) where it deviates from the command given in !logs. 17:48:16 Phantom_Hoover: Seriously, just shut up, I am not your personal tech support, especially when you're being this whiny. 17:48:25 You haven't even told anyone what error you received, just "it doesn't work", which is laughable. 17:49:02 elliott, maybe I wouldn't be "whiny" if your immediate response hadn't been to treat me like an idiot. 17:49:12 Phantom_Hoover: seriously. shut up. 17:49:24 And if I so obviously fucked up, why would you even need to know the error? 17:50:03 It was clearly my idiocy in composing it; such an astonishing intellect as yours would be able to point out the error without effort. 17:50:08 I once wrote some perl that read C source code and spit out still compilable C source, but fucked up with random indentation, single line declarations (with initializers), mixed bracing style and use of whitespace, and added comments like "increment i" when it saw "++i". 17:50:24 I love the choice of Perl as a language for doing that munging, it seems to fit somehow 17:50:27 And the new Nintendo console is (surprise, surprise) approximately 4 Wiis duct taped together. 17:50:32 Or, 8 Gamecubes duct taped together. 17:50:36 cool 17:50:47 just came up with a new hack for hardware that doesn't even exist yet 17:50:51 pikhq: really, it doesn't need to be that much powerful than the Wii to hit Nintendo's core market, though 17:51:03 ais523: Yeah, true. 17:51:04 apparently, an LED can also be used as a light *sensor* 17:51:13 does it even need to be *any* more powerful than wii? 17:51:13 cheater_: that's not surprising at all 17:51:19 ais523: The Wii U is pretty fucking stupid, though. 17:51:23 in fact, a regular diode can be if you cut the top open 17:51:25 they should've just made a new controller like everyone else 17:51:31 in the future, when monitors are made out of LEDs, you could imagine a possible hack to the monitor's firmware to make it a camera 17:51:35 pikhq: the name is a pretty silly start, at least 17:51:40 Its *controller* is probably more powerful than the Wii. 17:51:42 not only is it stupid, it's also difficult to pronounce 17:51:43 granted, it wouldn't be too focused, but you could post-process that 17:52:08 so you could stalk people with LED monitors 17:52:15 The *controller*, the *controller* has a 6.2" display and a touch screen. 17:52:47 does it even need to be *any* more powerful than wii? 17:52:54 The Wii is getting really dated, to be honest 17:53:03 pikhq: this reminds me of the GameCube games designed to use a GBA as the controller 17:53:10 I gather that Super Mario Galaxy 2 was a bit of a pain to develop because the console is so outdated 17:53:28 some of the best games tend to be done on consoles getting outdated, though 17:53:35 indeed 17:53:37 because they bring together a lot of talent to work out how to really use the consoles well 17:53:41 ais523: Except as an official accessory. 17:53:42 also, "Wii U"? are Nintendo /aiming/ for bad names at this point? 17:53:51 Pee U 17:53:53 Weyoun? 17:54:06 I wonder if the Wii U will also support Gamecube games & controllers. 17:54:25 elliott: but was the wii any more powerful than gamecube? my point is that they just need to stick it a new box with a new name and a new controller and they could be done as far as most of their customers are concerned 17:54:27 If so, then it will be fucking absurd. 17:54:37 olsner: yes, the Wii was more powerful than the gamecube 17:54:51 olsner: The Wii had a higher clocked PowerPC. 17:54:51 pikhq: well, the Wii needs the Classic Controller, rather than a Wiimote, for many of its games 17:54:58 and you can substitute a GameCube controller instead 17:55:04 GCN: CPUIBM PowerPC "Gekko", 486 MHz 17:55:06 Wii: CPUIBM PowerPC-based[1] "Broadway" 17:55:09 So, anyone who doesn't think wanting help is whining want to tell me what "rsync error: some files/attrs were not transferred (see previous errors) (code 23) at main.c(1526) [Receiver=3.0.7]" means? 17:55:12 no clock rate info, but I'll bet >486 MHz 17:55:20 It was 700-something. 17:55:27 ais523: The Wii U supports Wii controllers. 17:55:49 olsner: yeah, the Wii was more powerful than the gamecube by quite a bit 17:55:50 The Nintendo Wii does use many similar hardware to GameCube. 17:56:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube#Technical_specifications 17:56:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii#Technical_specifications 17:56:26 zzo38: The Wii's backwards compatibility is done by, basically, dual-booting. 17:56:34 (Once I put a game in and it did not recognise it as Wii so it started it in GameCube mode, it displayed the title screen correctly, including animation, but did nothing else.) 17:56:48 zzo38: heh, really? 17:56:50 that's impressive 17:56:51 Yeah, it just has a port of the Gamecube's OS to the Wii. That's their BC. 17:57:07 pikhq: with what zzo38 said, I wonder if it even needed porting 17:57:16 I mean, apart from controller support, I guess 17:57:43 elliott: ok, so maybe a *little* bit more than putting same thing in a new box will be required :P 17:58:00 It occurs to me that Nintendo could introduce absolutely any new controller they wanted and people wouldn't dismiss it, just because of how badly that backfired with the Wii 17:58:04 The hardware access was radically different on the Wii; all hardware access went through an ARM chip, for the sake of DRM. 17:58:11 were they decent trolls, they'd have exploited this 17:58:33 elliott: Well, their new controller is making the NES brick look ergonomic. 17:58:48 I don't see how they'll pull off the fancy Wiimote stuff with it 17:58:57 it doesn't exactly look like a very good sword or tennis racquet 17:59:02 You can also use a Wiimote. 18:00:01 hmm, the screen is actually quite clever, because it allows for secret information 18:00:09 which has always been an advantage of internet play IMO 18:00:36 apple why are you emailing me about the new os x version... 18:00:46 elliott: do you want me to email you about the new os x version too? 18:00:50 Yeah, this is the *second* means of doing that the Wii U has to offer, BTW. 18:00:57 pikhq: what's the first? 18:00:59 Phantom_Hoover, I don't think wanting help is whining, but I'm not exactly capable of helping you, sorry. 18:01:01 GBA link. 18:01:16 ah, the Wii U can do that? 18:01:26 you'd think they'd at least use DSes or 3DSes 18:01:33 Presuming GC compatibility, which honestly would take little more than a couple extra lines off of a motherboard. 18:02:02 Idea of screen, I already had similar idea. And actually some older systems had it too, I think, just ones that nobody used. 18:02:09 pikhq: it would need controller ports 18:02:11 being able to link up to a DS as a controller would be cool 18:02:38 that's the big issue with some other consoles and backwards compatibility, the major issue to using old controllers was the lack of correctly-shaped ports 18:03:07 ais523: Actually, the big issue was no freaking way to execute old software. 18:03:26 Nintendo does not have this problem, because they've been using the PowerPC since the Gamecube. 18:03:31 pikhq: I'm not talking about old software, but just use of old controllers for new games 18:03:36 Aaaah. 18:03:51 Is there any information on the system specs of the U? 18:03:55 Yeah, that's basically a non-issue. If you want to support old controllers, it's easy. 18:04:09 hmm, the console itself looks quite ugly 18:04:13 in comparison with the Wii 18:04:16 Especially with older consoles where the controllers used the same damned protocol. 18:04:27 (which actually had functional use, too; you could fit it practically anywhere) 18:04:57 I have many ideas making up my own system instead. It will not have these kind of problems! I fix many things. And it will describe *everything* in the manual. 18:05:06 zzo38: i can hardly wait. 18:05:24 "Claims have been made that the new machine is significantly more powerful than the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360." 18:05:32 source is IGN and Kotaku, so I'm not about to start believing that immediately 18:05:51 I already got some people who can build the circuitboards and stuff like that. 18:06:15 elliott: It's not like it'd be *too* hard. 18:06:24 zzo38: assuming it's not massively overpriced and there's a sensible way to ship it from Canada, I'd buy it 18:06:25 "01net also claims to know some of the technical specifications of the new console (translation from Develop): "CPU is custom IBM PowerPC with three cores, GPU should be an ATI from the R700 family, with a shader unit at version 4.1. RAM should be at least 512 MB."[19]" 18:06:30 Just slip a more recent multicore processor and a modern GPU in there. 18:06:34 I made some timesheets programs for their company and I told them I can have barter instead of paid in cash 18:06:36 -!- augur has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 18:06:49 IT'S TOO DAMN HOT! 18:07:01 Of course, Nintendo's still running technology that's competitive with the PS2. :P 18:07:58 pikhq: and the PS2 was so successful that that's a good thing 18:08:14 it's always impressive how low-spec consoles tend to be 18:08:15 ais523: The first few units produced will probably be overpriced but they will also be colored in gold and have other stuff specific to the limited editions. So, the normal edition will not be overpriced, but will have the same electronic hardware basically, can run the same software, and so on. 18:08:28 you need, like, a PC with twice the specs to get the same quality out of them 18:08:40 because people optimise aggressively for consoles since they're uniform 18:08:41 pikhq: why Canada? 18:09:08 coppro: Wut. 18:09:13 coppro: did you mean to ping me with that? 18:09:17 I thought zzo38 was Canadian 18:09:25 Yes I am Canadian 18:10:00 yeah, I meant ais523 18:10:09 zzo38: how much will the gold edition cost 18:10:09 misread 18:10:32 makes more sense for ais523 to want a Canadian one due to price, but there's region-locking and format issues if you do that 18:10:45 elliott: I don't know how much any edition will cost yet 18:10:53 coppro: it's just that I assumed that zzo38 being in Canada, that's where they'd be made 18:11:05 zzo38: not even approximately? 18:11:17 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:11:17 coppro: you think /zzo's/ console will have region-locking? 18:11:21 No. I have not selected the specific hardware parts yet. Only in general I have. 18:11:31 zzo38: can you leak any details? :D 18:12:37 ais523: oh, I thought you meant the Wii U 18:12:48 ah, no 18:13:01 gah, that name hurts my head just when I try to mentally pronounce it 18:13:17 thus, I have to skim comments containing it (no mental pronunciation) rather than read them (which does normally cause mental pronounciation for me) 18:13:18 It will have region-coding, but only for regions with different TV format (such as NTSC/PAL), and the programs and hardware that is built-in is all open so you can even override that. 18:13:19 -!- nooga has joined. 18:14:07 what games-containing media will it take? 18:14:14 So, the Canadian software should work fine in United States, and in Japan, but to use in England it is PAL so it is different. 18:14:27 zzo38: In the modern world, there's no need for that. 18:14:39 yeah, if the software outputs digitally that's unnecessary 18:14:41 -!- monqy has joined. 18:14:56 elliott: DVD. Also USB for small files downloadable from kiosks or whatever, if such things exist. 18:15:17 ew, optical media :( 18:15:37 USB also works so you do not need to use optical media if you do not like it. 18:15:39 The hardware can have built-in converters for video formats anyway 18:15:41 zzo38: you realise that USB drives are competitive with DVD for storage space, btw? 18:15:55 in fact, with an SDHC cart, it can far surpass DVDs 18:15:59 [asterisk]card 18:16:01 (plus USB reader) 18:16:01 Especially USB 3 18:16:11 coppro: er, that only affects speed, no? 18:16:50 well yes 18:16:53 but speed is important 18:16:58 fuck loading screens 18:17:05 coppro: sure... it's hard to be slower than optical drives, though 18:17:19 actually, personally I would just include a USB port or two, and no DVD drive -- after all, there are plenty of USB DVD readers 18:17:27 heh, yes 18:17:36 so you could support optical media entirely within software, and make the console smaller and (slightly) cheaper too 18:18:00 elliott: Thanks for the idea, I might consider that, maybe 18:18:15 No stupid CSS licensing fees too 18:18:34 coppro: CSS is optional isn't it? 18:18:42 yeah... 18:18:46 and if the console didn't support it, nobody would use it 18:18:49 so that's kind of irrelevant :P 18:18:51 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:19:03 I was not going to license CSS anyways I was trying to make it to remove all CSS from the drive so that it must be done in software if at all. 18:19:25 yeah 18:19:46 If I choose not to have a optical drive, I will have more than 2 USB ports, though. 18:20:04 why would you ever need more than two media in at once? 18:20:12 (and also have sufficient power requirements that a USB hub wouldn't suffice?) 18:20:13 hmm 18:20:16 or are controllers USB too? 18:20:31 in which case, yeah, obviously you'd want like five ports 18:20:33 -!- nooga has joined. 18:20:34 No, controllers are not USB. 18:20:38 hmm, what are they? 18:20:45 Synchronous serial. 18:20:49 wtf 18:21:01 Packets are 32 bits. 18:21:09 it seems like it'd be simpler to do the controllers over USB too since you could reuse the driver 18:21:21 and also it means that if you used fewer controllers, you could use more storage media 18:21:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 18:26:51 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:27:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:27:32 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:31:56 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:32:54 -!- nooga has joined. 18:34:44 -!- augur has joined. 18:34:49 beh 18:35:09 wat, nintendo's E3 press site is "open" 18:35:21 "open"? 18:35:28 as in it has an obvious username and password 18:35:31 http://press.nintendo.com/E32011/ username: E32011, password: nintendo 18:35:38 it even has videos 18:35:42 lol 18:35:47 elliott: did you guess them? 18:35:51 someone gimme a wget command to mirror everything :D 18:36:00 oh wait, the videos are huge 18:36:02 and the server is slow 18:36:03 and are the videos subdirs of that page? 18:36:11 ais523: it's an HTML page 18:36:13 with lots of info and links 18:36:26 I mean, are the links to subdirs of the directory the page is in? 18:36:32 yes 18:36:36 "Please note: Nintendo 3DS screenshots are provided as 2D images." 18:36:38 otherwise, if you follow all links, you can end up mirroring the whole Internet 18:36:45 -!- elliott has set topic: Please note: Nintendo 3DS screenshots are provided as 2D images. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:36:59 use peg/leg OR write parser by hand 18:37:04 I'm surprised this page doesn't have some spiel about NO UNAUTHORISED ACCESS 18:37:14 help me with decision 18:37:22 ESRB Age-Gate Notification: 18:37:23 This video/trailer may only be displayed if it is behind an age-gate that: (1) is age-neutral (i.e., requires the user to input their date of birth or select it from a drop-down bar); (2) employs reasonable technical measures to keep underage users from re-entering their age after initially being denied access; and (3) does not display any ESRB rating information on the trailer player or the age-gate itself. Failure to implement these requirement 18:37:23 s may jeopardize your ability to obtain material of this nature from us in the future. 18:37:26 I bet it's designed for people to access while still maintain plausible deniability 18:37:31 wat 18:37:48 you're... not allowed to tell people the ESRB rating? 18:38:04 elliott: it's basically "how old are you? PS if it's too low you don't get to get in, but we're not going to /tell/ you what it should be in the hope that you'll give your real DOB rather than calculating one that will let you in" 18:38:16 ah 18:38:25 is there anybody who doesn't just select the oldest age possible on those? 18:38:33 I don't know 18:38:45 I mean, who would bother picking out their real birthdate? 18:39:11 hmm, it seems everything on this press site is in a zip 18:39:16 even things that are only a few hundred kilobytes 18:40:04 elliott: wget -r -k -p -np (in an empty directory) might work 18:40:07 and I can't open the zip I tried 18:40:14 elliott: password-protected? 18:40:23 dunno, file-roller just gives up 18:40:26 ais523: the server's slow enough, and the files sufficiently numerous, that I don't care enough to mirror it 18:40:36 yep, I was just looking up out of curiosity 18:40:39 I mean, it's not like there's going to be any information or video or whatever here that won't be available publicly soon enough 18:40:54 * elliott nabs the upcoming list of [console] games, though 18:41:54 a /minute/ to download a thirty-seven kilobyte file 18:41:55 ? 18:41:57 really, nintendo? 18:42:16 it's going to take twenty hours to download this fifty-megabyte Wii factsheet, apparently 18:42:42 oh well 18:42:48 perhaps they're being Slashdotted (via something other than Slashdot) 18:43:46 ais523: probably by everyone with legitimate access :P 18:44:05 oh, it looks like it's on /v/ 18:44:10 that probably explains it 18:44:36 it'll probably all be in a torrent by the end of the day 18:46:27 elliott: you actually checked 4chan in order to see if they were responsible for massive access to a site? 18:46:37 or was it a guess followed by asking someone likely to know / checking a page likely to indicate? 18:46:54 ais523: no, I googled the url 18:47:09 ah, clever 18:47:21 I'm surprised Google even indexed them; they're 404'd already 18:47:24 the threads, that is 18:47:31 although I'm surprised that Google finds results from 4chan, given how quickly the threads are deleted 18:47:35 ah, seems you are too 18:47:37 pseudo-snap 18:47:51 perhaps Google pay for a constant stream of changes to 4chan, just like they do to Wikipedia 18:47:56 I have a feeling Google does a lot more than just spidering nowadays 18:48:06 they probably try and "subscribe" to rapidly-updating websites via feeds or whatever 18:48:45 no dinosaurs 18:48:46 yep 18:49:02 also, they own quite a few of the rapidly-updating places, like YouTube and Blogger 18:49:33 ICH 18:49:50 SIE? 18:49:50 Deceased bug in bowl. Soap and _cold_ water enough to get it decently clean? 18:49:55 There is no hot water. 18:49:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:50:02 no 18:50:04 it is not enough 18:50:06 you need hot water 18:50:09 elliott: guessing? 18:50:10 or all the germs will stay 18:50:14 ais523: no this is cold hard fact 18:50:19 trolling? 18:50:24 i'm offended 18:50:52 it's too hot 18:51:37 nooga: how hot 18:56:21 my gf's laptop refused to work 18:56:26 because of heat 18:57:15 nooga: have you tried bashing on the case a couple of times, a couple of centimetres further from the touchpad and to the left of the power switch, as soon as it starts to make the clicking noise? 18:57:28 or does she not have the exact same laptop as me? 18:59:44 and you guys make fun of me for not fixing these number keys :D 18:59:56 -!- foocraft has joined. 18:59:57 elliott: well, this is easily workaroundable 19:01:04 maharba continues to be a bad person for not responding to my questions ;( 19:01:27 hmm, just noticed: esolangs tend to disobey Wadler's law, don't they? 19:01:43 to the extent that DownRight didn't have a syntax at all until people forced one on me, and then came up with one quite quickly 19:02:06 ais523: /good/ esolangs disobey it 19:02:11 consider how many languages are /all about/ the syntaz 19:02:13 [asterisk]syntax 19:02:21 ais523: btw my proposed syntax for downright was much better :< 19:02:44 elliott: even BF derivatives tend not to argue a lot about comment syntax 19:02:51 heh, true 19:03:04 there's not much languages like postscript nowadays 19:03:35 underload 19:03:54 Sadly, what's the difference between lexical syntax and syntax? 19:04:01 elliott: thanks 19:04:19 Sgeo: lexical syntax is syntax of lexicals 19:05:41 just like in IOCCC, syntactic obfuscation is boring 19:06:37 unless it's tied into computation somehow 19:09:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:10:04 What isn't a lexical? 19:10:21 * Sgeo really, really needs to read about how to parse and lex and.. whatever code 19:10:58 weeps quietl 19:10:59 y 19:11:53 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:12:22 Sgeo: hint, lexical != lexeme != lexical analyser 19:13:33 17:18:27: PCREs can't match things recursively, can they? 19:13:34 17:18:43: PCRE is TC. 19:13:44 the latter doesn't actually necessarily imply the former 19:14:15 because TC does not imply "input-complete" 19:14:19 the syntax for recursive matching is (?1) 19:14:22 or you can use other numbers 19:14:39 e.g. (a(?1)b) matches strings of a given number of a, followed by the same number of b 19:14:49 erm 19:14:52 that's only enough to make it a PDA, though, rather than TC 19:14:53 "input-complete"? 19:15:06 olsner: like the difference between TC and BF-complete, I think 19:15:18 s/the former/that PCRE can parse everything that is decidable/ 19:15:28 yeah that was the idea 19:15:43 consider how many languages are /all about/ the syntaz 19:15:58 Esolangs in general have extremely syntax, though. 19:16:04 Even the ones based on it. 19:16:09 extremely syntax 19:16:14 *simple 19:16:21 Extremely syntaz. 19:17:16 yeah obfuscation is usually limited to using unreadable base tokens, isn't it. 19:17:30 (e.g. single character ones) 19:17:44 oerjan: that's not even intentional obfuscation, I think 19:17:50 it can actually make langs easier to read when you're used to ir 19:17:52 *it 19:18:03 it's just the esolang's style 19:18:04 it just makes implementing it easier :P 19:18:26 I suspect that half the crappy BF derivatives were just caused by someone who wanted to try writing an interesting program with , but couldn't be bothered actually making something original. 19:18:26 also easier to parse... i suspect many esolangers would have trouble implementing a language which didn't use single-char tokens 19:18:46 oerjan: which is depressing 19:19:49 >:< 19:20:06 nooga: feel targeted? :P 19:20:20 ais523, is {a b c: code} vs |a,b,c| {code} for lambdas syntax or lexical syntax? I'm... guessing the latter, but not sure 19:20:23 i want a language that mutates during the parsing 19:20:45 > let x >:< y = x ++ y in "a" >:< "b" >:< "c" 19:20:51 eek 19:21:00 ;> 19:21:02 oerjan, eep 19:21:09 lambdabot existence failure 19:21:14 I want to learn how to do things sanely 19:21:18 oerjan: no I dont, this nice token just came to my head 19:21:29 lambdabot :( 19:21:32 come baaack 19:21:35 Sgeo: and this is certainly the place to learn *sane* ways to do stuff 19:21:39 Sgeo: I thought you'd have looked it up for yourself by now, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_grammar 19:21:52 Sgeo: the former definitely. lexical syntax is about how you find your language's basic "words" 19:21:57 ais523: implying Sgeo would ever google anything when he could ask it awkwardly on irc instead 19:22:05 ty 19:22:07 elliott: well, people wouldn't imply that about me 19:22:12 (note that I didn't google it either) 19:22:14 ;s 19:22:20 ais523: the "awkwardly" part is important 19:22:25 yep 19:22:26 ais523: anyway, I am using google in the genericised sense here 19:22:31 looking it up on wikipedia counts 19:22:32 I often ask on IRC when I think it's the easiest way 19:22:35 since that's basically what googling would achieve anyway 19:22:40 "Please quote to me the dragon book. You may begin with chapter 1 for I know nothing." 19:22:45 Sgeo: e.g. because FORTRAN doesn't have a lexical syntax you get such absurdities as the famous FORI=1,10 vs. FORI=1.10 bug 19:22:53 olsner: i'll have to get permission from my dad first 19:23:05 oerjan: I'm not familiar; got a link? 19:23:17 (the former starts a for loop, the latter assigns to the variable FORI) 19:23:23 ah 19:23:34 elliott: I was about to tell you that, but oerjan was faster 19:23:39 INTERCAL of course does that on purpose :D 19:23:47 oerjan: actually, no it doesn't 19:24:04 it /almost/ does, but has a specific rule saying you aren't allowed to do things like that 19:24:07 ais523: um it doesn't use whitespace to separate tokens, doesn't it? 19:24:10 it's even in the original manual 19:24:17 oerjan: no, but it still tokenizes deterministically 19:24:30 DOX always parses as DO X 19:24:36 ais523: ok not that kind of example (which has horrendous lookahead) 19:24:54 the only corner case is DOREADOUT as DO READ OUT vs. DO REA DO UT 19:24:58 which caught out J-INTERCAL 19:25:08 heh 19:25:08 but people ignore that one as they can't figure out what the intended behaviour is anyway 19:25:30 the case I was referring to was array syntax 19:25:43 ais523: that example that the manual explicitly prohibits, I'm really sad about 19:25:49 who cares about infinite lookahead? 19:25:51 which requires unlimited lookahead to parse correctly, except that if you write a case that would require unlimited lookahead, compilers are allowed to crash 19:25:59 yes which is bad >:( 19:26:00 or, well, mis-parse it 19:26:01 and evil and wrong 19:26:02 I know C-INTERCAL does 19:26:05 and ITRALCEN won't do it 19:26:17 however, even handling the reduced version is insane 19:26:29 C-INTERCAL does so using a stack of bits, which is packed into an array of integers 19:26:35 that's a reason to do something, not to not do it :( 19:27:00 Sgeo: so basically if your language has multicharacter keywords or identifiers, it makes sense to have an initial stage that just finds the boundaries of those, that's lexical analysis, which also throws away whitespace and comments (which become irrelevant once you have done the division) 19:27:02 the funny thing is, I even found a program that hit the limit of nested spark/ears groups and had to increase the limit 19:27:15 oerjan: it doesn't really make sense IMHO 19:27:18 it's a bit of an obsolete notion 19:27:28 probably resulting from Joris' experiments in inlining an entire sequence of expressions into one 19:27:37 joris? 19:27:52 oerjan: probably the most active C-INTERCAL developer who isn't actually a maintainer 19:28:02 he's done a lot of useful work in finding/fixing bugs, and improving the optimiser 19:28:12 he should get more credit 19:28:32 i should actually write itralcen sometime 19:28:59 the world needs more INTERCAL impls 19:29:26 what level of compatibility would you be aiming for? -72? -72 with COME FROM and text I/O? common subset of C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL? something else? 19:29:29 yes, unfortunately itralcen is very precisely defined, and I don't really feel like writing a GNUstep program to run in qemu which communicates with the host machine via a socket 19:29:36 (to actually run ITRALCEN) 19:29:46 ok so that could possibly wait ;D 19:30:02 ais523: COME FROM isn't in a standard? 19:30:07 Deewiant: computed COME FROM isn't 19:30:08 ais523: at the very least, computed COME FROM 19:30:21 Deewiant: even original COME FROM isn't in the -72 standard 19:30:24 and there are no other standards 19:30:28 wow, really? 19:30:29 ok 19:30:29 ais523: the ideal would be to have its very special own set of extensions and compatibility libraries for C and CLC, though 19:30:39 elliott: like C and CLC do for each other 19:30:51 ais523: The implementation strategy is basically inspired by CLC I think 19:30:59 I think modern intercals should come with all the known COME FROM variants, including computed and parallel 19:31:01 is that even /possible/? 19:31:07 that would imply that somebody knew how CLC worked 19:31:09 haha 19:31:22 I only managed to reverse-engineer the basic outline, and CLC himself has long since forgotten 19:31:27 ais523: except that, instead of just having a separate orthogonal language jammed in, it'll be based on the program you're running rewriting itself 19:31:32 basically, it'll have self-modifying features 19:31:39 and all the basic commands will rewrite themselves down to primitives 19:31:52 which might be inline machine code, or maybe just VM instructions, etc. 19:32:06 will one of the primitives run arbitrary Perl, like in CLC-INTERCAL? 19:32:08 so basically, the whole language will be implemented in its macro system 19:32:13 ais523: boring 19:32:22 elliott: it's funny in context 19:32:28 especially as it's hardly used for anything 19:32:34 and is deliberately undocumented 19:33:10 hmm, I might bootstrap it by having the bootstrapping code be just one big instruction 19:33:18 [run arbitrary ] "huge string", basically 19:33:29 and that would set up the system to a point where it could run the macro system and self-modify 19:33:34 and the rest would be built up in ITRALCEN 19:33:49 and the actual bootstrapping script would just do "eval str_param" 19:34:03 thus reducing the amount of code not written in full valid ITRALCEN to a line or two 19:34:30 NATO vs Anonymous = LOL 19:34:50 ais523: I'm not sure how I'll actually handle parsing 19:35:08 ais523: I think every command will define how it's parsed, pretty much 19:35:22 elliott: note that CLC-INTERCAL's parser's interpretation of ambiguous statements was determined by experiment 19:35:23 elliott: i thought about it 19:35:24 So all it'd do is lex everything, and start running (which would equate to rewriting itself down to primitives, and then running those primitives) 19:35:26 Would | | be lexed into beginlambdarglist and endlambdaarglist or just pipe? 19:35:29 as nobody could work out what the results of the rules are 19:35:39 Sgeo: you can't do the former 19:35:46 lexers don't have that kind of information 19:35:52 Ok 19:35:55 Sgeo: elliott is right 19:35:57 also, note that if you support the whole of CLC-INTERCAL, the way a program parses or even lexes could change at runtime 19:36:09 nooga: thanks for the confirmation 19:36:30 ais523: same with my system, the /whole thing/ is based around commands parsing their invocations and then rewriting themselves 19:36:34 elliott: i was just about to answer him but then you came so I confirmed 19:36:39 ;f 19:36:46 nooga: :P 19:36:52 ais523: I'm aiming to handle that explicitly-forbidden infinite-lookahead example, anyway 19:37:14 but how do you un-rewrite if the meaning of a command was changed from behind you? 19:37:15 I still have more questions, but they'd probably be better answered by reading 19:37:16 -!- foocraft has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:37:31 e.g. DO STASH .1 DO EXCHANGE STASH VARIABLE LIST WITH RETRIEVE VARIABLE LIST 19:37:35 followed by looping 19:37:52 at least, I can't remember the exact syntax of EXCHANGE, would you really expect me to? 19:37:59 but it's much simpler than CREATE's, at least 19:37:59 ais523: well, "the meaning of a command changing" is just newspeak for "the command has a branch" 19:38:18 elliott: ah, so you'd work out all the possible meanings of a command at compile time? 19:38:32 what if the CREATE statement was in a linked Befunge library rather than in the program itself? 19:38:34 ais523: possibly; OTOH, it sounds more fun to unrewrite 19:38:50 ais523: which would mean that I'd tag every part of the primitive call with the string of INTERCAL that it originated from 19:38:56 (I had to implement that as soon as I realised it would be possible, and not too difficult) 19:38:57 and then piece it together to unrewrite 19:40:12 ais523: I'm really tempted to make the only supported target platform Wine 19:40:26 elliott: the development tools will be a pain 19:40:32 ais523: Wine with Cygwin, I mean 19:40:36 but that's the only thing making it a bad idea 19:40:40 also, Cygwin doesn't run under Wine 19:40:43 all it'd require is for me to use a handful of Windows calls gratuitously 19:40:44 I know, I actually tried 19:40:46 ais523: ugh, still? 19:40:50 people have gotten it working in the past, IIRC 19:40:52 well, not last time I tried, at least 19:41:04 ais523: well, I could just link to Winelib 19:41:10 that doesn't prohibit you from linking to a POSIX libc, after all 19:42:06 ais523: ooh, I could make the rewrites "timeless" 19:42:20 invalid statements would simply not get rewritten, and executing something which can't be rewritten and isn't a primitive causes an error 19:42:29 then, CREATE would simply introduce a new command 19:42:30 hmm 19:43:09 elliott: Well, you'd get symbol conflicts if you didn't link to the system libc. 19:43:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:43:37 pikhq: indeed, but the system is POSIX 19:43:40 (because it can run Wine) 19:43:54 True. So there's no real reason you *can't* just link to the system libc. 19:44:25 you have to to use Winelib, I think 19:44:58 Yes, and that's why you'd have symbol conflicts if you didn't use the system libc for your libc. 19:45:03 $ winegcc 19:45:03 winegcc: gcc-4.5 failed 19:45:05 top-notch tool 19:45:31 ais523: hmm, maybe I'll fork tcc for ITRALCEN 19:45:36 ais523: and make it compile into memory only 19:45:41 that way, I can make my inline instruction be "inline C" 19:45:51 haha 19:46:00 I'm deadly serious. 19:47:05 hmm, what's the Windows function to create a dirt-simple alert box? 19:47:08 :) 19:47:25 gah, that name hurts my head just when I try to mentally pronounce it 19:47:27 it occurs to me that I'll have to think of an actually decent reason to use Windows functions 19:47:33 elliott: MessageBoxEx, I think 19:47:35 Wii U NO LIKE IT? 19:47:37 unless they've changed it again 19:47:44 oerjan: AAARGH! 19:47:48 ais523: so, MessageBox then 19:47:53 ugh, hWnd 19:47:56 I'm not sure if that one ever existed 19:47:56 >how does I winapi 19:47:57 oh i forgot ais523 is allergic to puns 19:48:01 and that's the parent, you can pass in NULL 19:48:10 it is MessageBox in visual basic at least (was? dunno about .net) 19:48:10 if you don't have a window yourself to parent it to 19:48:14 LPCTSTR... 19:48:17 that's not a C string is it 19:48:37 not in the normal format, I don't think 19:48:37 (what do you _mean_ i would probably have done it anyway) 19:48:40 (LPCWSTR)L"Resource not available\nDo you want to try again?", 19:48:40 ugh 19:48:47 it's a *long* pointer to a constant wide (or ansi) string 19:48:55 olsner: that's what I was guessing 19:49:07 I didn't recognise the T, but guessed it indicated UTF-16 19:49:11 the first T, that is 19:49:16 a long pointer ahahaha 19:49:22 winapi: so bad??? 19:49:25 most API calls use long pointers 19:49:26 L stands for herp, T stands for derp, the rest is meaningless 19:49:38 ais523: calling MessageBox outside of WinMain is a dumb idea, right? 19:49:42 I'm trying to use a regular Unix main() 19:49:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:50:00 /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: fatal error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory 19:50:02 r u srs 19:50:04 of course 19:50:07 wine doesn't support sixty four bit 19:50:08 elliott: a regular main() will emulate all the stuff you need to make it act like a C89 main, I thought 19:50:13 this just keeps getting betterer and betterer 19:50:27 TCHAR is either a char (for an ANSI string) or a WCHAR (on a Unicode platform). 19:50:40 hmm, is L"string" a Windowsism, or in one of the actual C standards? 19:50:44 I think the latter, but am not sure 19:50:48 I know it's basically only used on Windows 19:50:57 L"" makes a wchar_t string, it's standard 19:50:58 because other platforms tend to do their Unicode by hand 19:51:16 but you don't know what it means, it "can" be non-unicode 19:51:27 yep, depending on what wchar_t is 19:51:32 no wonder people generally do it by hand 19:51:36 even when it is unicode, sometimes it's UCS-4, sometimes UCS-2 and sometimes UTF-16 :) 19:51:52 utf-16 should just die 19:52:00 there's pretty much no justification to use it, ever 19:52:19 elliott: what's your opinion on the similar-but-different ucs-2? 19:52:37 ais523: UCS-2 can't even handle non-BMP, can it?? 19:52:42 "It is not possible to encode these code points in UCS-2." 19:52:42 indeed 19:52:43 even worse 19:52:54 yep 19:52:57 _T is either an empty macro or L, for defining TCHAR string literals. 19:53:08 UCS-2 is basically UTF-16 except surrogates are meaningless rather than being usable to express astral planes 19:53:22 UCS-2 made sense before the astral planes 19:53:26 now, it's unacceptable 19:53:26 fizzie: isn't _T in implementation namespace? 19:53:42 UTF-16 is acceptable only when you're upgrading from UCS-2, I guess 19:53:55 Which is why Windows uses it for internal APIs. 19:54:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:54:28 test.c: In function ‘main’: 19:54:28 test.c:6:3: warning: passing argument 2 of ‘MessageBoxA’ from incompatible pointer type 19:54:38 ok i'll use _T and a cast 19:54:39 I have talked with the other project manager and can now answer some of your other questions. 19:54:41 ais523: At least it only gets defined if you ask for tchar.h. 19:54:54 We will not omit the optical drive in favor of USB only. 19:54:56 elliott: just disable warnings 19:55:10 that'll fix it! 19:55:22 zzo38: hm, why? 19:55:34 If it's MessageBoxA, it sounds like it's using the ANSI version, where you should be able to pass a char* too. 19:55:39 fizzie: error: ‘_T’ undeclared 19:55:41 guess wine doesn't have it 19:55:50 and no, it's MessageBox(), which I guess is defined to be MessageBoxA? 19:56:00 elliott: Two of the reasons are: * Optical discs are less expensive in general * Optical discs last longer in general * There are other reasons too 19:56:20 zzo38: optical disks last longer than USB disks? 19:56:21 that's not two reasons 19:56:22 I haven't heard that one. 19:56:23 Yes, but the fact it gets turned to MessageBoxA instead of MessageBoxTheOtherThing indicates ansi. 19:56:33 s/TheOtherThing/W/ 19:56:42 Right. 19:56:56 I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ASCII 19:57:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:57:09 zzo38: anyway, I thought the point was that you could easily plug a USB DVD drive in, so it saves space overall 19:57:15 * elliott goes back to convincing winegcc to work 19:57:21 The gold edition is currently estimated at $20000.00 although the price will likely go down. Standard edition will be reasonably priced, though, although we cannot yet estimate the price. 19:57:27 I BELIEVE IN 1-BYTE UTF-8 19:57:29 * coppro explodes 19:57:30 $20000 19:57:36 is that a typo 19:57:40 Yes, it is very overpriced. 19:57:40 elliott: no 19:58:05 The standard edition will be way less than that. And even the price of the gold edition might not actually be that high, it is just estimate. 19:58:33 yay, I just ran a program that uses both fork and MessageBoxA 19:58:36 elliott: I think you're supposed to a) define some macro to say whether you want T stuff to mean wchar or char, b) include the header full of T stuff 19:59:02 (I will try to include enough stuff with the gold edition to justify the high price for the purchasers) 19:59:04 but using HerpDerpA functions with normal strings should work fine too 19:59:20 You can include to get the stuff, including the _T thing. 19:59:31 the stuff, including the thing :D 19:59:36 zzo38: you realise that's approximately five hundred times as expensive as the most expensive consoles, right? 19:59:48 woah, I think I just got a job. 20:00:12 CakeProphet: where at? 20:00:18 (Or explicitly define _UNICODE I guess, which should make it use to FooW functions that take wchar_t strings.) 20:00:35 lmao, the .exe winegcc generates is actually a shell script 20:00:38 elliott: Yes I do realize that. However, I did say that it is possible the price might go way down even before it is actually sold. Also, the standard edition is not going to cost anywhere near that high price, it is going to be a lot a lot less. 20:00:38 Wal-Mart. Working the night shift, stocking shit in the wee hours of the morning. 20:01:00 so, yet another brainfuck encoding, this one both herps and derps: https://gist.github.com/1013014 20:01:29 olsner: did you write this 20:01:38 elliott: yeah :/ 20:01:53 olsner: :( 20:03:08 ugh, sometimes I hate thunderbird 20:03:38 coppro: me too; for instance: whenever i'm using thunderbird 20:04:02 out of curiosity, what do you use? 20:04:11 gmail.com because i'm lazy as fuck 20:04:14 ah 20:04:18 it has a decent UI, at least 20:04:27 i've muscle-memoried the keyboard shortcuts mostly 20:04:38 Yeah, it's a non-terrible web UI. 20:04:40 my problem with gmail is the filtering was a bit braindead last I tried 20:04:43 I couldn't switch to any client without the conversation view, pretty much 20:04:45 the UI is good 20:04:46 Which is actually pretty amazing. 20:04:49 well, I don't know if I got the job yet, but they're asking me to meet them at the bathroom tomorrow at 10 AM, which PROBABLY means they're going to drug test me, and I'm pretty sure they don't drug test people without hiring them. 20:04:57 great, no setting to disable these disgusting automatic smileys in xchat 20:05:04 coppro: hmm, the only filters I have are 20:05:07 Matches: to:(agora-business@agoranomic.org) 20:05:07 Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora"[etc.] 20:05:12 elliott: yes 20:05:20 what do you do that gmail can't handle? 20:05:26 but if you try to reapply such a filter after something happens like you accidentally delete a label 20:05:34 it filters the whole damn conversation 20:05:38 not individual mesasges 20:05:50 well... gmail doesn't really have a concept of "message" as something that can move 20:05:53 this is unacceptable when I'm using IMAP 20:05:59 i don't use imap :) 20:06:19 in particular, I keep A-B and A-D in separate folders 20:06:32 ugh 20:06:39 that's a terrible practice; I did that, but it turns out it makes reading things a royal pain 20:06:49 so I stopped as soon as I actually registered 20:07:19 now, if I switched to the web UI exclusively now that they have offline access, that would work; I'd have to learn that I can't do the separate folder thing which would be ok if a bit annoying 20:07:56 but there are a few other issues that annoy me sufficiently 20:08:13 better than thunderbird 20:08:21 actually, no 20:08:44 well, things in total are better with thunderbird 20:08:49 what about Sylpheed/Claws? those are pretty popular with the kind of silly people who use traditional-style desktop mail clients 20:09:02 if GMail could act as an IMAP client, I'd like that 20:10:03 I very much like the webserver I use 20:10:13 what? 20:10:27 My email is hosted on a server 20:10:30 to which I IMAP 20:10:32 I like this server 20:10:45 you typo'd; s/webserver/server/ 20:10:48 ah 20:10:54 meant mailserver 20:15:01 "Checking for exit in -lboost_regex" 20:15:04 *facepalm* 20:15:12 whee name mangling 20:15:18 DON'T BE RETARDED YOU RETARD 20:17:01 EXIT IS NOT EVER GOING TO BE IN -lboost_regex. EVER. 20:17:23 pikhq, where was this? 20:17:39 This is actually in the AX_BOOST_REGEX macro. 20:18:13 It does that test *using C*, no less. 20:18:42 ... It later goes on to do an AC_CHECK_LIB for *main*. 20:18:47 wtf 20:18:52 MAIN IS EVEN LESS LIKELY TO BE IN -lboost_regex. 20:18:57 im a oifd 20:19:13 FUCK YOU, BOOST. FUCK YOU. 20:19:30 elliott: yes ur 20:19:40 coppro: cob 20:19:48 Also, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE, USE PKGCONFIG. 20:19:59 IT IS STRICTLY BETTER THAN YOUR STUPID BULLSHIT. 20:20:08 I think what it's trying to see is if an empty program can successfully link to -lboost_regex 20:20:27 olsner: Yes, and AC_CHECK_LIB does not do that. 20:20:52 it might do that if you give it nonsensical symbol names to check for :P 20:21:23 AC_CHECK_LIB checks to see if you can successfully link a program that contains a reference to a symbol in a given library, *and then execute it*. 20:21:29 aoifj 20:23:09 So, if you use a symbol that's not in the library you're checking, you're doing it wrong and you suck. 20:23:24 Did I happen to mention that you should use pkg-config? 20:25:51 I do believe that you did 20:26:48 It bears mentioning often. As pkg-config is The Right Answer. 20:27:10 olsner: do you know how to get bochs to stop outputting all that junk when it starts up 20:27:27 elliott: nope 20:27:32 olsner: :( 20:27:38 its just such a pain to useeee 20:28:39 don't use it then? 20:29:00 are you proposing i use qemu :p 20:29:44 no, I was actually only proposing you don't use bochs :P 20:30:01 psht 20:30:09 whether that means replacing it or just ceasing all activity is up to you 20:30:21 youre a bad person 20:30:26 haha, right 20:30:33 I'm a bad person! 20:30:38 yes 20:30:40 youre all abd people, die 20:30:56 I'm not an abd person :( 20:31:09 youre the most abd fuckin person ive ever heard of 20:31:25 well of course I'm abd fuckin 20:31:25 ABD people, the very worst kind of people 20:31:28 who isn't? 20:31:36 im abd fuckin every day 20:31:51 I bet you're extremely syntax too 20:31:57 * pikhq kinda wonders what level of configurability eglibc actually *has*... 20:32:00 syntaz actually 20:32:09 i like parsing so i will write a parser for a language that you can use to write a parser which is jit compiled and parses text 20:32:25 Most definitely nothing comparable to uclibc, but still, curious. 20:33:48 like uh, grep specializer 20:34:02 it's the ... grepalizer! 20:34:04 i must prove it 20:34:34 i did it once but it sucked 20:34:52 i want to make a second attempt 20:35:00 btw 20:35:14 so what makes you think it will go better this time? 20:35:41 i was in a hurry because i wanted to show it on my university 20:36:08 i've got this Puss Ruby DSL, in which you define grammar and then it generates random strings that comply to that grammar 20:36:45 what would happen if one defined a grammar of that DSL to generate random grammar definitions and feed them into the Puss itself 20:37:30 pusseption? 20:38:04 sorry, I mean P U S S E P T I O N, of course 20:38:19 https://github.com/nooga/puss 20:38:33 i must check it 20:38:53 but i don't want to accidentaly divide by 0 20:38:58 The world needs a fresh recursion meme. 20:39:10 indeed 20:39:14 or 20:39:15 not 20:39:26 Yo dawg, division by zero, I N C E P T I O N... they're all tired. 20:39:37 yep 20:39:46 elliott: you mean the ones we have are good enough? 20:39:46 division by zero is a recursion meme? 20:39:58 elliott, it's often used as one. 20:40:03 howso 20:40:06 olsner: no i mean they suck 20:40:17 By which I mean people reference it when recursion crops up. 20:40:52 "The Seventh Voyage", in which a spaceship defect forces Tichy through a series of time vortices, creating a multitude of temporal copies of Tichy. 20:41:01 from the Star Diaries by S. Lem 20:41:24 could be a good source of confusing paradoxes 20:41:49 Hmm. eglibc is rather less configurable than I'd hoped. 20:42:01 Though still a hell of a lot better than glibc. 20:43:43 It's possible to make a glibc that won't use dlopen with static linking. That's nice, at least. 20:44:09 brb 20:44:15 nooga, has anyone read the Star Diaries? 20:45:46 what's the star diaries 20:45:57 monqy, exactly. 20:46:19 Wow, apparently just getting rid of eglibc's locale support suts a giant swath of the libc's size. 20:46:20 DAMMIT MAHARBA 20:46:23 i'm emailing that bastard 20:46:32 You must be logged in and have a valid e-mail address in your preferences to send e-mail to other users. 20:46:33 oh come on 20:46:42 * elliott confirms his fucking email address 20:47:09 This user has not specified a valid e-mail address, or has chosen not to receive e-mail from other users. 20:47:10 lol 20:47:20 i guess i will just wait then 20:48:41 SUCKER 20:48:46 what 20:48:57 shut up tarski............ 20:50:15 banach-tarski banach-tarski 20:50:21 HYOURE A BANACH 20:50:49 Hmm, does Banach-Tarski work as a recursion meme... 20:51:14 probably not 20:51:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]). 20:51:25 i'll ban your ach tarski 20:51:31 Not to the layman, no. 20:51:45 banach-tarski works both as a recursion meme and as a recursion meme, separately 20:52:04 people who exist suck 20:52:32 hmm, LtU has slown down lately 20:52:41 elliott: NEEDS CONTROL GROUP FOR VERIFICATION 20:52:42 and Arcane Sentiment hasn't seen a post since April 20:53:47 Is Arcane Sentiment written by a Clojure fan? 20:59:21 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:00:03 -!- elliott has joined. 21:00:43 is there really no haskell package for fixed-sized arrays... 21:00:45 i.e. three by three by three 21:01:03 encoded in the type 21:01:20 I mean I know I could do ((a,a,a),(a,a,a),(a,a,a)) but that's ugly 21:01:40 type Cool a = ((a, a, a), (a, a, a), (a, a, a)) 21:02:30 elliott: (a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a) then? :) 21:02:35 didn't i see a linear algebra package like that when someone was asking for how to do gauss elimination in haskell a while ago 21:03:06 (for bfjoust scoring) 21:03:18 and btw did anyone ever get that implemented 21:03:23 elliott, ISTR something like that. 21:03:28 well there's 21:03:28 hmatrix-static library: hmatrix with vector and matrix sizes encoded in types 21:03:35 Phantom_Hoover: there's repa, but that just encodes dimension in type 21:03:39 oerjan: nobody has yet, AFAIK 21:03:46 Also, aren't you essentially talking about dependent typing? 21:04:18 ...no. 21:05:18 Um. 21:05:38 elliott: oh wait you actually want arrays, not matrices? 21:05:43 oerjan: yeah 21:05:45 i.e. not linalg related 21:05:47 I mean, the array type depends on the dimensions, no? 21:05:56 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. This has nothing to do with dependent types. 21:06:08 If you think it does, you are mistaken about what dependent types are. 21:06:23 "In computer science and logic, a dependent type is a type that depends on a value" 21:06:27 (WP) 21:06:40 Phantom_Hoover: this is ok without dependent types because you have to encode the dimensions as a _type_, you cannot convert it from a value 21:06:52 oerjan, oh, that makes more sense. 21:06:55 oerjan: it is ok even if you have values at the type-level. 21:07:00 there is no use of the dependent function arrow. 21:07:13 it's definitely not dependent typing 21:07:20 elliott: well i mean it's ok in haskell 21:07:28 Right. 21:08:23 iirc didn't ghc recently get an extension where integer literals could be used as types, was that for this kind of stuff... 21:08:44 It did? 21:08:49 That would be really nice, do you have any links? 21:10:01 :1:2: 21:10:02 Couldn't match expected type `()' with actual type `Grid (S n0) a0' 21:10:02 In the first argument of `(:*:)', namely `() :*: () :*: ()' 21:10:02 In the expression: (() :*: () :*: () :*: X) :: Grid T3 () 21:10:06 derp herp 21:10:44 > (9DOLLAR SIGN0:) 21:10:48 :( 21:10:50 no lambdabot, no dollar sign 21:12:47 *Main> :t () :*: () 21:12:47 () :*: () :: Grid n () ~ () => GridS n () 21:13:04 beautiful~ 21:13:59 i think : has same precedence as ++, 6 or so 21:14:09 Constraint is no smaller than the instance head 21:14:09 in the constraint: Show (Grid n t) 21:14:09 (Use -XUndecidableInstances to permit this) 21:14:10 or wait 21:14:10 sob 21:14:21 data GridS n t = t :*: Grid n t 21:14:22 deriving instance (Show (Grid n t)) => Show (GridS n t) 21:14:24 why is this not ok :( 21:14:39 elliott: um doesn't the (0$0 :) trick work in ghci? 21:15:09 oerjan: yes yes yes fix my bug 21:16:30 well "Constraint is no smaller than the instance head" looks pretty accurate 21:17:39 but i want the show ;_; 21:19:59 i think : has same precedence as ++, 6 or so 21:20:00 five actually 21:20:24 ah 21:20:53 N :*: (N :*: N) :/: (N :*: (N :*: N) :/: N :*: (N :*: N)) 21:20:54 oh come on 21:20:56 i may have misunderstood; at least i cannot find these number literal types in the language options 21:21:02 I said it was infixr why don't you take that into account :( 21:21:19 oerjan: but hey look, planet overkill: http://sprunge.us/IAJR 21:21:33 Show instances don't; we've discussed this before i think 21:21:53 *derived Show instances 21:22:17 define showsPrec yourself if you want it to be nice 21:22:27 yeah yeah :D 21:24:57 class (Show t => Show (Grid s t)) => Grid s t where 21:25:00 that's not a valid constraint, is it. 21:27:57 er no? 21:28:14 you might want a , there 21:28:33 or wait 21:28:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wiy_eHdj8kg 21:28:55 Cool. 21:29:03 oerjan: nope 21:29:29 oerjan: hmm, now i'm venturing into dependent typey territory (wanted to make xs!n a type error if n is too big :D) 21:32:41 argh... this is irritating 21:47:59 oerjan: i'm still working on it :D 21:49:45 oh 21:49:46 this won't work 21:49:48 because of how I... argh 21:53:55 i'm writing an infinite, recursive loop that won't kill the stack :D 21:54:02 in C 21:55:17 _portable_ C? 21:59:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:00:10 -!- wareya has joined. 22:01:38 oerjan: i wish haskell had proper overloaded integers :( 22:01:57 (you can't define a LessThanFour type where (4 :: LessThanFour) causes a type error) 22:02:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:04:09 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:04:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:14:16 oerjan: i use cdecl and pop function address from the stack as an argument 22:14:52 nooga: so, not portable. 22:15:30 who cares 22:15:39 it's a hack 22:15:41 PERFECTIONISTS 22:17:14 nooga: well it's not /C/ 22:18:11 nor /b/ 22:18:23 nor /d/ 22:24:41 -!- oscuro has joined. 22:24:44 -!- oscuro has quit (Client Quit). 22:44:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:50:14 nooga: You could just assume GNU C and make it easy on yourself. :P 22:51:49 For example, ''pabi'' plus ''raha'' (5) is written ''gahaha pabi raha''. 22:51:51 gahaha 22:51:55 monqy: gahaha 22:52:47 mmmm syl 22:53:21 gahaha is a good name for addition 22:56:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:04:38 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:05:25 pikhq: hey i'm reading a log where you mock me for proposing writing everything above the kernel and drivers in a high-level language because you'd need a supercomputer to do anything :D 23:05:27 thought you should know 23:06:37 O-o 23:06:50 nooga: its ok hes less of a terrible person now 23:06:56 SLIGHTLY LESS 23:07:06 nooga: I have learned that C sucks terribly. 23:07:20 i heard that i'm a terrible person 23:07:24 lol apparently Singularity is proof that nothing good will come from Microsoft ever :DDDD 23:07:30 it's ok to mock all you guyses past selves right 23:07:35 And that smart algorithms > smart microöptimizations, 99% of the time. 23:07:35 i mean i do it to your present selves so i figure 23:07:45 from GLaDOS while playing portal 2 23:08:01 00:32:36: Bring back Lisp Machines! Write the OS in Lisp and let the user-mode language be Haskell! 23:08:01 00:32:49: VIVA LA GRAPH REDUCIÃ<93>N! 23:08:02 00:33:23: You say this because you are unfamiliar with anything more low-level than a simple GUI. :P 23:08:03 hurt my feelings :( 23:08:09 (vim messing up the unicode, that is) 23:08:54 Also, if you're *going* to do C, it should suck less. 23:09:19 apparently if lisp machines were at all good at anything they would still be being made because there's a niche market for them :x 23:09:22 -!- Tritonio has joined. 23:09:49 Haskell machine? 23:09:59 someone should make a lisp cluster in one FPGA chip 23:10:05 CakeProphet: Reduceron 23:10:06 http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ 23:10:06 massive thunk registers. 23:10:11 nooga: stanislav is ostensibly working on a lisp fpga :P 23:10:17 oh 23:10:19 CakeProphet: It's a symbolic graph-reduction FPGA machine 23:10:28 CakeProphet: Specified in York Lava, which is a Haskell library for declarative hardware 23:10:35 It's the coolest damn thing ever 23:10:49 declarative hardware sounds mind blowing 23:10:54 I'm not sure if your definition of cool is representative. 23:11:05 -!- dnm_ has left. 23:11:09 CakeProphet: How is this not cool. 23:11:19 nooga: see YorkLava.txt in http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/york-lava.tar.gz 23:11:25 nooga: also, ais' work is similar to this 23:11:33 in that he's working on something "one level up" from VHDL 23:11:37 that's declarative 23:11:55 that's why he's spending his days compiling algol 60 code into vhdl :) 23:12:04 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:12:24 But yeah, the Reduceron is just the coolest thing. and the memos are mind-expanding. 23:12:46 I've heard similar things about various drugs. 23:12:52 Shush you. 23:13:17 cool 23:13:38 nooga: but yeah, the entire Reduceron is specified in York Lava 23:13:58 there's also an emulator in ~seven hundred and fifty lines of C 23:14:03 (including whitespace and comments) 23:14:09 with speculative evaluation, too 23:14:10 what are we talking about? 23:14:18 Patashu: The Reduceron http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ 23:14:20 yeah, i'm reading the emulator src ;] 23:14:23 at the moment 23:14:32 or rather browsing it 23:14:33 Patashu: a purely-functional, symbolic graph reducing CPU architecture 23:14:36 implemented on FPGAs 23:14:49 wait what 23:14:56 Define "wait what" :P 23:15:13 nooga: look at fpga/Reduceron/Reduceron.vhd... gotta love generated code :D 23:15:18 so it's haskell in ur circuitry 23:15:28 Patashu: "ur circuitry"? 23:15:46 The actual stuff the Reduceron evaluates is more like term-rewriting languages (think Q, Pure) than Haskell 23:15:51 But yes, it's functional hardware. 23:16:08 Defined with York Lava, which is a Haskell library for declarative hardware development that outputs to VHDL. I feel like I'm repeating myself. 23:16:13 Probably because I am repeating myself. 23:19:47 !addinterp len perl $_=<>;print length 23:19:47 ​Interpreter len installed. 23:19:56 !delinterp len 23:19:57 ​Interpreter len deleted. 23:19:58 -!- augur has joined. 23:20:01 !addinterp len sh wc -c 23:20:01 ​Interpreter len installed. 23:20:06 !len abcd 23:20:07 ​5 23:20:12 !delinterp len 23:20:13 ​Interpreter len deleted. 23:20:15 !addinterp wc sh wc 23:20:16 ​Interpreter wc installed. 23:20:18 !wc abc def 23:20:18 ​1 2 8 23:20:25 !delinterp wc 23:20:25 ​Interpreter wc deleted. 23:20:34 !addinterp wc sh wc -wm 23:20:34 ​Interpreter wc installed. 23:20:35 I think what you're looking for is.. 23:20:37 !wc abc def 23:20:38 ​2 8 23:20:41 Excellent. 23:20:45 nope.. 23:20:49 Nope? 23:20:54 It shows words, and characters. 23:20:57 elliott: lol at the vhdl code 23:20:58 Looks good to me. 23:21:16 nooga: you should look through the memos, they're really cool 23:21:26 !delinterp wc 23:21:27 ​Interpreter wc deleted. 23:21:27 i will, but tomorrow 23:21:28 !addinterp len perl $_=<>;print `wc $_` 23:21:28 ​Interpreter len installed. 23:21:37 CakeProphet: ... 23:21:40 for a start 23:21:41 that won't work 23:21:43 for a second 23:21:44 got to go, good night 23:21:44 SRSLY? 23:21:50 elliott: what won't work? 23:21:53 nooga: night 23:21:54 CakeProphet: your perl 23:22:01 ...because? 23:22:10 `wc $_` 23:22:12 No output. 23:22:21 ...uh, okay? 23:22:26 !wc -c "sup dawg" 23:22:26 think about it. 23:22:38 fail 23:22:38 I am. 23:22:39 you forgot sh 23:22:44 !sh wc -c "sup dawg" 23:22:44 ​/usr/bin/wc: sup dawg: No such file or directory 23:22:52 btw, it's actually 23:22:53 !sh wc -c sup dawg 23:22:54 ​/usr/bin/wc: sup: No such file or directory 23:22:55 you don't quote it at all 23:23:08 why do I sh? 23:23:25 what? 23:23:33 ` ` /is/ sh... 23:23:34 No output. 23:23:45 i meant in 23:23:47 !wc -c "sup dawg" 23:24:11 ? 23:24:14 I forgot sh in that? 23:24:16 sigh 23:24:26 your version is borken, simple as :P 23:26:16 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:26:53 !addinterp wc perl $_=<>;print `wc $_` 23:26:53 ​Interpreter wc installed. 23:26:57 !wc -c sup dawg 23:26:58 ​/usr/bin/wc: sup: No such file or directory 23:27:11 lol 23:27:20 !delinterp len 23:27:20 ​Interpreter len deleted. 23:28:53 !delinterp wc 23:28:53 ​Interpreter wc deleted. 23:29:03 hmm 23:29:19 not useful if I can't specify options as well as the standard input. 23:29:24 i'm doing so 23:29:35 with Perl right? :P 23:29:42 nope 23:29:59 not going to be as awesome then... 23:30:36 !addinterp wc sh text=`cat`; opts=`echo "$text" | sed 's/\b[^-].*//'`; text=`echo "$text" | sed 's/.*\b\([^-]\)/\1/'`; echo "$text" | wc $opts 23:30:37 ​Interpreter wc installed. 23:30:39 `wc abc 23:30:41 No output. 23:30:45 !wc abc 23:30:46 ​1 1 4 23:30:49 oh god... 23:30:50 !wc -c abc 23:30:51 ​1 1 4 - 23:30:55 bah 23:30:56 i'll fix it later 23:34:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:06 !perl $_="test";@x=s/test//g;print @x 23:36:07 ​1 23:36:23 * elliott drools over the reduceron memos some more 23:36:57 "To see the impact of the dynamic sharing analysis, look at the 23:36:57 differences between the numbers of updates and unwinds. Without any 23:36:58 sharing analysis, these numbers would be the same. On average, the 23:36:58 dynamic sharing analysis avoids 60% of updates." 23:37:41 oerjan when i make the perfect computer you can have one ok 23:37:47 * elliott kind 23:41:13 OK 23:41:37 oerjan: you were meant to say "thank you you are so kind" 23:42:07 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:42:07 Danke schön, Sie sind so Kind 23:42:33 :D 23:42:43 caret _______ caret 23:42:48 * oerjan whistles innocently 23:42:50 oops now you guys know my widemouthed secret too 23:45:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:45:51 !addinterp wc2 perl $_=<>; $r=qr/^\w*([-]\W*\w*)*/; $opt=join(' ', m/$r/); s/$r//;print `echo "$_" | wc $opt` 23:45:51 ​Interpreter wc2 installed. 23:46:01 !wc2 -c sup dawg 23:46:02 ​11 23:46:07 ...not quite. 23:46:30 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:46:32 stop using perl asshole 23:46:35 :( 23:46:48 `run echo "-abc donkeys" | sed 's/\b[^-].*//' 23:46:49 ​- 23:46:51 ... 23:46:52 ..asshole? What about Perl makes me an asshole. 23:46:59 CakeProphet: perl :| 23:47:00 ok now for good sh time 23:47:11 `run echo "-abc donkeys" | sed 's/\( \|^\)[^-].*//' 23:47:13 ​-abc 23:47:29 `run echo "-abc donkeys" | sed 's/.*\( \|^\)\([^-]//' 23:47:31 No output. 23:47:36 `run echo "-abc donkeys" | sed 's/.*\( \|^\)\([^-]\)/\/' 23:47:36 fuck 23:47:37 No output. 23:47:37 X just fucked up 23:47:43 !delinterp wc2 23:47:43 ​Interpreter wc2 deleted. 23:47:45 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:11 -!- elliott has joined. 23:48:45 !addinterp wc sh text=`cat`; opts=`echo "$text" | sed 's/\( \|^\)[^-].*//'`; text=`echo "$text" | sed 's/.*\( \|^\)\([^-]\)/\2/'`; echo "$text" | wc $opts 23:48:45 ​There is already an interpreter for wc! 23:48:48 !delinterp wc 23:48:48 ​Interpreter wc deleted. 23:48:48 !addinterp wc sh text=`cat`; opts=`echo "$text" | sed 's/\( \|^\)[^-].*//'`; text=`echo "$text" | sed 's/.*\( \|^\)\([^-]\)/\2/'`; echo "$text" | wc $opts 23:48:49 ​Interpreter wc installed. 23:48:54 !wc abc 23:48:54 ​1 1 4 23:48:58 !wc -c abc 23:48:59 ​4 23:49:08 hmm... 23:49:08 oh 23:49:10 !delinterp wc 23:49:10 ​Interpreter wc deleted. 23:49:16 !addinterp wc sh text=`cat`; opts=`echo "$text" | sed 's/\( \|^\)[^-].*//'`; text=`echo "$text" | sed 's/.*\( \|^\)\([^-]\)/\2/'`; echo -n "$text" | wc $opts 23:49:17 ​Interpreter wc installed. 23:49:20 !wc -c abc 23:49:20 ​3 23:49:23 nice 23:49:27 !wc -m abc 23:49:28 ​3 23:49:29 !wc -l abc 23:49:29 ​0 23:49:32 !wc -wm abc 23:49:33 ​1 3 23:49:34 !wc -w -m abc 23:49:35 ​1 3 23:49:39 CakeProphet: bow to your new god 23:49:44 !addinterp wc2 perl $_=<>; $r=qr/^\w*([-]\W+\w+)*/; m/$r/; $opt=$1; s/$r//;print `echo "$_" | wc $opt` 23:49:44 ​Interpreter wc2 installed. 23:49:48 !wc -wm abc 23:49:49 ​1 3 23:50:04 AWWW YEAH I'M LEIBNIZ 23:50:05 fail 23:50:08 !addinterp wc2 23:50:10 !wc 23:50:13 ROFL 23:50:17 -ahem- 23:50:23 that's because you STOLE It. 23:50:33 !wc2 -wm abc 23:50:34 ​2 2 9 23:50:37 haha 23:50:40 why are there bans on this channel 23:50:45 could someone please remove them all 23:51:09 they're all for you 23:51:09 why 23:51:09 :( 23:51:15 in case you ever want to use those hosts 23:51:17 they irk me 23:51:18 :D 23:51:21 * #esoteric Banlist: Tue Mar 29 04:26:23 honey!*@beehive.insectopia.us kornbluth.freenode.net 23:51:24 thats an important ban oklopol 23:51:26 !delinterp wc2 23:51:26 ​Interpreter wc2 deleted. 23:51:28 why 23:51:31 because honey 23:51:33 we are at war 23:51:34 with the bees 23:51:45 please remove that 23:51:47 you should totally remove the shutup bans though oerjan 23:51:49 i have a bee nest outside my window 23:51:51 not joking here 23:51:56 oerjan: could you remove the bans 23:52:08 really think those people are trying to get in? 23:52:30 shutup would definitely return if its ban was removed 23:53:30 !addinterp wc2 perl $_=<>;chomp;/^\w*([-]\W+\w+)*/;$opt=$1;s/$opt//;print `echo "$_" | wc $opt` 23:53:31 ​Interpreter wc2 installed. 23:53:37 !wc2 -c abc 23:53:37 ​1 2 7 23:53:42 ...? 23:53:44 lol 23:54:29 we already did a ban list cleanup not _that_ long ago 23:54:53 those are all over a month old 23:55:26 definitely think we need shutup unbanned 23:55:37 elliott: fix my program for me. 23:55:42 ...by which i mean something like < 6 months ago 23:55:44 CakeProphet: i did, by rewriting it in sh, in the past 23:56:00 !delinterp wc2 23:56:00 ​Interpreter wc2 deleted. 23:56:44 !addinterp wc2 perl $_=<>;chomp;/^\w*([-]\W+\w+)*/;$opt=$1;s/$opt//;print;#print `echo "$_" | wc $opt` 23:56:44 ​Interpreter wc2 installed. 23:56:49 !wc2 -c test teorkjwerijwer 23:56:49 ​-c test teorkjwerijwer 23:57:02 ...WHUT. 23:57:22 nt;# 23:57:34 t//;print;#print `ec 23:57:34 yes I know that was intentional. 23:57:35 to be precise 23:57:47 homp;/^\w*([-]\W+\w+)*/;$o 23:57:53 well thats not... kosher. 23:57:57 or is it. 23:57:58 hmm. 23:58:03 is that a boolean matching? 23:58:03 -!- lambdabot has joined. 23:58:03 what? 23:58:07 yes. 23:58:26 ah I know what I could do... 23:58:31 !delinterp wc2 23:58:32 ​Interpreter wc2 deleted. 23:58:47 * oerjan hugs lambdabot 23:59:20 !addinterp wc2 perl $_=<>;chomp;s/^\w*([-]\W+\w+)*//;$opt=$1;print;#print `echo "$_" | wc $opt` 23:59:20 ​Interpreter wc2 installed. 23:59:23 !wc2 -c test 23:59:24 ​-c test 23:59:25 .... 23:59:33 something's wrong with the regex then. 23:59:55 ooooh 23:59:57 right. :P