00:02:08 Igelle is the newest distro on this timeline 00:02:10 get that one. 00:02:42 ... 00:02:46 Is LLVM capable of compiling itself? 00:03:29 ISTR they did self-compile clang with clang a while ago 00:04:24 well, the newest one that's also a root. There's Mageia and Fusion (on the Red Hat tree), Arch Hurd (on the Arch tree), Superb Mini Server and Imagineos (on the Slackware tree), Tiny SliTaz (on the SliTaz tree). 00:04:33 ah wait, 4m is the newest root distro. :) 00:04:45 ...? 00:05:03 Because, if GCC is broken for some reason, you can use LLVM. And also other way around if LLVM becomes broken for some reason. 00:05:22 Gregor: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Gldt.svg 00:08:15 "Damn Vulnerable Linux" on the Knoppix looks like a winner. 00:08:21 *Knoppix subtree 00:11:18 Yowsa 00:11:31 I remember SLS :) 00:12:37 Gentoo looks interesting, actually. 00:13:05 I still have some fondness for it. 00:13:20 any huge problems with Gentoo? 00:13:26 Pffff 00:13:34 I got somewhat annoyed by package breaks. 00:13:36 Yet again, people who have forgotten the simple lesson: 00:13:38 Debian is right. 00:13:40 It is always right. 00:13:46 Debian is legion. 00:13:47 Nowait. 00:13:51 Then I switched to Debian, which broke stuff fundamentally. 00:14:04 Gregor: Hey, build GCC. Good luck. 00:14:22 pikhq: Debian's choice to move those crt files was definitely a good one. 00:14:25 yeah, because "build GCC" is the first thing I do after installing a distro... 00:14:28 I don't know WHY they did it, but I know it was good. 00:15:03 CakeProphet: I do odd things. I expect the distro not to break shit behind my back when I'm doing them. 00:15:27 Gregor: They claim "multiarch". 00:15:45 Why sticking crt files elsewhere helps that is beyond me. 00:16:13 (seeing as the *only* compilers that are going to look in /usr/lib for those are native ones) 00:16:25 Because if you're compiling targeting 32-bit on a 64-bit system, but your 64-bit libraries are in /usr/lib, then /usr/lib/crt* is wrong 00:16:49 Multiarch != cross-compilation ... per se :P 00:16:54 Gregor: gcc -m32 is fundamentally broken. Any further questions? 00:17:07 pikhq: use slackware. :D 00:17:31 pikhq: That's a separate observation :) 00:17:39 Gregor: But closely related. 00:17:58 CakeProphet: btw, Damn Vulnerable Linux (just looked it up) is intended to be a training tool for computer security. 00:18:08 Gregor: If your 64-bit libraries are in /usr/lib, a 32-bit compiler looking in there for *anything* is wrong. 00:19:00 pikhq: see: slackware 00:19:30 CakeProphet: Which doesn't even give you the option of running 32-bit programs on a 64-bit install. 00:19:40 problem solved. :) 00:19:48 http://sttngfashion.tumblr.com/ <-- in case anybody hasn't heard of it 00:20:17 In conclusion, fuck everyone and everything. 00:20:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:20:44 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:25:04 pikhq: so basically I think you want Windows or OSX. 00:25:50 With Gentoo Prefix :P 00:30:50 i want to punch zuu hes an idiot 00:30:52 * elliott is reading logs 00:31:08 20:11:11: well, when i say turing complete i really mean LBA (ofcource) 00:31:09 [...] 00:31:09 20:12:54: you dont seem to understand what turing complete means then 00:31:39 pikhq: openVMS 00:31:48 LBA? 00:31:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:32:27 Sgeo: google it 00:32:49 Logical Block Addressing? 00:32:50 "Google?" "google it" 00:33:12 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:33:15 Oh, Linear bound automaton 00:33:18 -!- elliott has joined. 00:33:18 this modern society doesn't have TIME for your questions. 00:33:58 So, basically like TC except with bounded memory? 00:34:15 elliott: so what did you do in the few seconds afforded to you by not answering that question? 00:34:22 >:) 00:35:10 does anyone know if ubuntu comes with xz by default or not 00:35:12 CakeProphet: what question 00:35:39 "LBA?" 00:35:53 i didnt go insane by answering another trivial question thats what 00:36:12 What makes a question trivial? Is this a trivial question? 00:36:34 Is answering questions maddening? I thought questions were a central component of any conversation? 00:37:06 was that last question really a question at all? 00:37:40 In next version of Enhanced CWEB, I plan to correct some problems with the fonts and remove the PDF stuff. And remove a few of the metamacro commands that never worked, but probably add some enhancements to the way C interpreter works. 00:39:05 I wonder why there are no commonly used record-based filesystems. 00:39:07 Or maybe next time I might make up LWEB for making literate programming in LLVM, including macros and stuff. So that, in addition, LLVM can have a preprocessor. 00:39:44 CakeProphet: Do you have some examples of record-based filesystems and in what cases they are used if not for generally common though? 00:40:02 the one I'm looking at right now is Files-11 from OpenVMS 00:40:43 I have no clue what they would be used for. But it seems like affording data types in your filesystem would improve the structure? 00:41:48 -!- oklofok has joined. 00:44:49 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:45:01 zzo38: also it would facillitate interprocess communication by eliminating the need to parse/deparse data into a character stream. 00:45:56 though I could also see it needlessly complicated the system. 00:46:00 *complicating 00:46:18 CakeProphet: Yes it would make the complicated system. 00:46:31 20:17:08: any explanation fo C not being turing complete is a flawed explanation 00:46:39 im going to track him down and cause him to cease existing 00:46:47 20:16:52: Zuu: Yes, attaching an infinite tape to C can model a universal Turing machine. However, this is true for many, *many* a finite state machine. 00:46:48 20:17:37: pikhq: that wouldnt be a finite state machine then 00:46:50 WOW 00:46:51 20:16:52: Zuu: Yes, attaching an infinite tape to C can model a universal Turing machine. However, this is true for many, *many* a finite state machine. 00:46:52 20:17:37: pikhq: that wouldnt be a finite state machine then 00:46:53 WOW 00:47:00 can we all just stare at that for a while 00:48:38 Would C be turing complete if pointers are not interchangeable with numbers? 00:49:41 I assume that means pointer arithmetic is impossible right? 00:50:18 you could use a linked list struct for (virtually) unbounded memory. 00:50:33 No it would not necessarily mean that. Pointer subtraction would be impossible but not adding a number to a pointer. 00:51:24 But it would mean a union cannot mix pointers with non-pointers, I think. 00:51:50 why would that be? 00:52:02 "20:11:11: well, when i say turing complete i really mean LBA (ofcource)" <<< 00:52:40 Or maybe it would still be OK as long as pointers are considered to be stored in a different address space therefore if a union mixed pointers with non-pointers you would access them separately still. 00:53:12 That would allow sizeof to work as well where 1 cell in pointer memory can store unbounded pointer addresses 00:53:27 you computer scientists just make me sick 00:53:37 It would have the consequence that sizeof(int***)==1 00:53:44 (oh and that was not about Zuu, that was intentionally blank) 00:53:55 Although of course all this stuff is impossible on real computer because real computer is not turing completed!! 00:54:03 this is just my usual math pretentiousness 00:54:24 thought i'd explain that to u because you wouldn't have gotten it anyways. 00:54:28 seriously why can't C have tagged unions. 00:54:56 zzo38: do you think we'll ever turing complete it tho? 00:55:19 you are right in that it clearly hasn't been turing completed yet 00:55:24 I suppose you could use a struct to emulate a tagged union. 00:55:26 but this is lame. 00:55:39 tagged union is mean what again? 00:55:48 not remember :\ 00:55:52 like Haskell union types. 00:55:55 CakeProphet: Maybe you can use macros? 00:56:14 is it c++ then that has those 00:56:28 a cobination of a struct containing a tag and an untagged union, and a set of macros to make it not a pain in the ass would work. 00:56:35 uh, I honestly don't know all that much about C++. 00:56:53 because i think union is a keyword in c++ and it means... well union 00:57:19 two types in one, the horriblest creation ever 00:57:30 in C, union creates an untagged union, meaning there is no way to test which type the value is. 00:57:36 ohhh 00:57:45 that's what tagging is 00:57:48 yeah you have to do that manually 00:57:55 oklofok: Not a bad creation, at least in C is not bad. It is very useful to make union. 00:58:10 zzo38: actually it's is a terrifyingly terrible and terrious creation. 00:58:26 no offense mister fanboy 00:58:27 * Sgeo wonders how Rust is coming along 00:58:28 of c 00:58:31 the language of a suck 00:58:34 -!- augur has joined. 00:58:40 augur: it sucks ass right 00:58:43 data [a] = (:) a [a] | [] 00:58:46 tagged union 00:59:11 (more or less) 00:59:18 oklofok: I don't know what "terrious" means but it is OK you and me can have different opinion about it. 00:59:42 zzo38: i think you should be able to infer it from the context 00:59:45 But from what I can tell, LLVM doesn't have unions. 01:01:36 elliott: hey linear bounded automata are totally turing complete i hear the emptiness problem for their languages is re complete i thought that's the math def lolol :SDSDSD 01:01:57 if (x.tag == SHITTY_ENUM_THING) { x.value.type1; printf("baaaah this is stupid."); } 01:02:14 But if you can compile a C code to LLVM code, then it must be able to make unions somehow, with it. 01:02:25 I vaguely remmeber complaining about the bind syntax 01:02:30 oklofok: (or nonemptiness whatever, emptiness is obviously not even RE) 01:02:42 Sgeo: you mean Haskell bind or? 01:02:45 yeah union is 01:02:46 stupid 01:02:48 Possibly just with type casting. 01:02:51 untagged that is 01:02:52 CakeProphet, Rust's bind 01:02:57 oh, nevermind. 01:02:57 its just typecasting in a bad disguise 01:03:30 elliott: let's make our own C, with tagged unions and functional programming and parametric types. What should we call it? 01:03:39 Not C. 01:03:47 haskell 01:04:23 yes, I'm glad I could set that up. 01:04:55 but, seriously, a C-like language with some of the stupid things changed would be good. 01:05:07 see BitC 01:05:12 http://www.bitc-lang.org/ 01:05:50 oh look, it already exists. 01:06:32 nonemptiness is painfully obviously RE, as for completeness, emptiness is not RE because you can use an LBA to check inclusion in the language of any TM's valid runs in LBA style as they do in the ghetto so nonemptiness is in RE - R; we then apply the following formal theorem: everything in RE - R is RE complete unless it's some silly artificial stupidance 01:06:40 CakeProphet: it's a long-term research project, mind you 01:06:46 * oklofok maths it up 01:06:46 it's being designed for http://www.coyotos.org/ 01:09:49 but more precisely, given any RE language L, and any word w, take a TM accepting it L and make an LBA for the language of its accepting runs from w, that LBA will have nonempty language iff L contains w, and thus we have reduced L to the language of LBA that have nonempty languages 01:10:12 perhaps i should've been more precise given that we have to keep track of multiple levels of languageness 01:11:03 i love tv shows 01:11:13 how come they are so good 01:12:09 *take a TM accepting it and 01:12:26 or perhaps *take a TM accepting L and 01:14:41 20:18:08: pikhq: then it coudlnt be turing complete 01:14:41 20:18:22: Zuu: AND C HAS FINITE FUCKING STATE. 01:14:41 20:18:24: either way you tuirn it you will make it false 01:14:43 but in fact it turns out that the emptiness of a single LBA is NOT RE complete! homework: let A be an LBA. give an algorithm that decides whether A has empty language. 01:14:47 20:18:30: Most finite state machines, *when given infinite state to work with*, are magically Turing-complete. 01:14:48 20:18:33: pikhq: no the hardware has 01:14:48 20:18:42: C is a language 01:14:50 kdflhjfghlkghgkjhfdghjfdg 01:14:52 i hate people 01:14:55 especially stupid people 01:15:01 20:19:45: so really, any language you can make up cam be said to have finite state in some spec. 01:15:02 kill 01:15:11 20:20:00: Zuu, the problem is not that the hardware is finite (of course it is). The issue is that the spec enforces any implementation to have finite state 01:15:12 20:20:15: AnMaster: and that is very much beside the point 01:15:12 20:20:15: it is not a valid C implementation if you have infinite state 01:15:12 20:20:18: basically 01:15:12 20:20:25: Zuu, no it is _exactly_ the point here 01:15:13 20:20:26: Zuu: No, that IS THE POINT. 01:15:15 20:20:36: well, then you have argued for nothing 01:15:44 oklofok: i need a hug :( 01:15:54 elliott: solve the problem and you'll get one 01:16:08 solved 01:16:09 gimme hug 01:16:34 20:25:05: ok, give me some hardware with infinite state, and i will write a C program that will act like any universal TC but yet only access a finite set of stats 01:16:34 20:25:18: Zuu, how. 01:16:34 20:25:22: a C program that conforms 100% to the spec i might add 01:16:34 20:25:35: Zuu: How? 01:16:34 20:26:16: By assuming that this finite state is large enough to compute whatever needs to becomputed, otherwise go into an infinite loop 01:16:35 show me solution, sry left that kinda hanging in implicity 01:17:24 you know there's a reason i switched to math 01:17:31 things are just so easy 01:17:48 20:29:50: Just to be explicit, this argument ended at the sime you gius mentioned the finite state stuff form the spec 01:17:51 O, BitC has theorems. 01:17:52 20:30:01: *guys 01:17:53 20:30:08: it just became to rediculous by then 01:18:01 im seriously going to yell at this guy if he ever came in again DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE AN IDIOT A YEAR AGO AND I HATE YOU 01:18:33 20:33:37: there are several other ways to achieve UTC though 01:19:27 elliott, you know there's a Freenode service by the name alis? 01:19:43 Zuu is a horrible person, i think we all agree already, no need to continue. 01:20:14 Sgeo: and? 01:20:17 oklofok: but im still reading 01:20:42 elliott: i'm so tired i'll actually happily read some more of that shit 01:21:16 not enough willpower to resist the urge of enjoying being extremely annoyed 01:21:58 oklofok: he's saying that using POSIX functions to prove C TC is ok because 01:21:59 20:36:51: remember the posic calls are mostly implemented in C aswell 01:22:59 is it okay if i still tell you to shut up about that old bullshit we've heard a million times even though i secretly hope you continue 01:23:36 yes 01:23:47 20:36:59: By the ISO standard for C, C is a finite-state automaton. 01:23:48 20:37:01: *posix 01:23:48 20:37:07: Zuu: POSIX defines extensions *to* C. 01:23:48 20:37:14: doesnt amtter 01:23:50 literally just punched the air 01:23:54 the air represents zuu 01:23:59 20:37:55: ok, i have far more insterresting stuff to do than tell about ways to use C in a UTC way 01:24:11 like being a terrible person and fucking killing kittens 01:24:17 * [Zuu] (~vdsvsd@77.215.149.86): uzzuu 01:24:18 oh 01:24:20 should i tel lhim 01:24:57 is he here 01:25:01 he's here 01:25:02 wow 01:25:05 after all that 01:25:09 he's still here 01:25:12 8| 01:25:14 WHAT THE FUCK 01:25:23 you should probably alert the freenode staff 01:25:33 maybe just paste those quotes on #freenode 01:25:40 i mean the balls on that dude 01:26:02 just like hello here i am again u remember me i'm the c is an utc dude let's have a party :D 01:26:30 and no one understands his sentences because they are written my me so he gets away with it 01:26:36 *by 01:26:41 i'm making no sense 01:27:50 how unusual 01:27:56 wow it's time :\ 01:28:01 4:30 01:28:06 * Sgeo watches idiots play in #wolfgame 01:28:18 Even I'm not that bad I think 01:28:30 Unless maybe it's... um, typical for that channel 01:28:40 it is impossible to use C in a UTC way, have a nice day! :) 01:28:43 this can only go well 01:28:52 man 01:28:54 but i mean 01:28:55 what the fuck are you doing 01:28:57 if you use another timezone 01:28:59 C works perfectly 01:29:04 oklofok: playing w/ devil 01:30:01 i use w/ all the time when i'm doing math on the blackboard 01:30:38 wow i'm obsessed with math today 01:30:42 how unusual 01:30:45 this is a weird night 01:38:01 lol 01:38:18 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:42:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:51:06 -!- cheater_ has joined. 01:52:33 oklofok: wat 01:52:51 augur: c 01:52:57 oklofok: what 01:53:01 the language 01:53:26 although it's kind of late now, not sure i need your input anymore 01:53:43 except out of pure why notness 01:54:16 oklofok: what was the question now 01:54:26 that it sucks right 01:54:40 ass 01:55:02 oklofok: when did i say that 01:55:11 err never 01:55:17 i was just asking you if you agreed 01:55:30 why exactly did you say "wat"? 01:55:36 oklofok: oh. i only got your question 01:55:39 not the line before it 01:55:57 but i then told you what it was about 01:56:23 and still u were so conf u sed 01:56:31 i really nede to slk 01:56:38 eep 01:56:49 skleep 01:56:50 do it 01:56:51 slkeep 01:57:03 quintopia: don't rush me 01:57:10 maybe i will maybe i won't 01:57:21 but you're right i should 01:57:33 write some c code until you fall asleep 01:57:58 that would take so little time i would've probably been asleep all day already. 01:58:16 yes 01:58:18 go for it 01:58:21 (since c is boring as well i guess?) 01:59:26 -!- quintopia has set topic: elliott using his rationale of observable sharing | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 01:59:38 does this make more or less sense? 01:59:38 I decided to buy the PediaPress book on compilers. 01:59:49 700 pages of Wikipedia for $40 :P 01:59:49 oh 02:02:49 Gregor: Buy ALL THE PAGES 02:03:04 elliott: Yesssssssssssssss 02:03:06 that would be many pages 02:03:32 remember that huge book of all the featured articles 02:03:34 that was like feet high 02:07:05 Not only do I not remember that, I'm fairly certain I never heard about it. 02:07:31 i own that book 02:07:39 i bought it because my kitchen stool broke 02:07:50 Gregor: it was just a picture of it 02:07:52 not something actually sold 02:08:05 lul, found it. 02:08:06 Wow. 02:08:17 i think i linked it here once 02:08:25 it was captioned gcc reference manual 02:14:09 "We used the Var x variant in Kansas Lava. We use it to encode two types of variables, Var and Reg, which have different timing semantics. Thus, turning a required annotation into a useful and required syntax." 02:14:12 stop mentioning lava u jerk 02:15:54 http://tinyconcepts.com/invaders.html invaders in lambda calculus 02:16:01 (partial) 02:20:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|RainboyIsWo. 02:20:39 -!- Sgeo|RainboyIsWo has changed nick to Sgeo. 02:22:21 Feel free to speculate! 02:22:33 what 02:25:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:26:46 -!- augur has joined. 02:36:23 I read stuff about rulebooks in Inform 7, including about procedural rulebooks, rulebooks based on kinds, rulebooks producing values, and so on. I would like to figure out how it works I would like to see having some other programming language based on these things possibly being optimized and then compiled to LLVM which can be further optimized. 02:36:48 However there is some problems, one is that the "ni" program is not yet published, also procedural rulebooks are deprecated. 02:37:17 * Sgeo plays Mafia in #wolfgame 02:42:25 i had a dream that i acted in a movie i think 02:42:31 -> 02:43:15 good movie 02:50:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:55:32 Also this new one can have property hook rules, when reading or writing a property you run the property hook rules in order of priority and the return value of one can be passed as the input of another, and so on. And also various other things. And things combining the Inform 7 style rulebooks with things similar to Magic: the Gathering rules. And more. 02:57:23 20:46:52: Hm, what prevents storing such a large number in a bugnum that it slows down the computer? 03:02:26 -!- augur has joined. 03:02:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:03:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:13:56 -!- augur has joined. 03:17:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:23:52 storing your numbers in bugnums is usually not a very good idea. 03:27:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Bottled water is even GST [Greenwich Sandwich Time] free.). 03:28:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 03:33:42 if i sign a form with "i do not agree to this contract" do i still agree to it 03:33:44 coppro: help 03:34:01 -!- azaq231 has joined. 03:36:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:40:12 -!- augur has joined. 03:40:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:59:38 how sleep? :\ 04:00:17 everytime i close my eyes i'm like "so where was i... ah, the markers, let's see how to implement those" 04:01:06 oklofok: never sleep 04:01:10 what markers btw 04:01:25 to prove my conjecture 04:01:45 my second proof was also kind of incomplete (actually the first one wasn't really wrong either, just even more incomplete) 04:02:32 i finally figured out how to do this one helper CA that kinda sparsely marks stuff, but i then realized i need to rewrite all markers already in the point 04:02:44 or those will get confused with stuff 04:02:58 of course due to entropy stuff that should be doable but it's one more pain in the ass 04:03:46 really this will probably blow up into a hugey when i write it up, unless it completely breaks down before i finish it 04:07:18 the thing is i know how to handle periodic points and i know how to handle parts of points that don't have small periods for very long anywhere, except there will be some errors occasionally because stuff happens, and i need to fix those errors and then somehow glue these two parts together 04:08:10 oklofok: im a carp 04:10:04 Sir.. 04:10:04 Good Day! 04:10:04 I was amazed in the "Telehacks" and I've try it.. It was really cool. And I will bookmarked it. I have a question do you know how to hack? I wanted to try to hack my own laptop but i don't know where to start.. Uhm.. is there any way to hack it? I'm just a beginner/noob . 04:10:04 Thank you sir.. 04:10:05 p.s. sorry for my english, grammars and others. 04:12:02 the first step in hacking your laptop is trying to come up with your password 04:12:17 since you came up with it, you should be able to come up with it 04:12:25 if not, ask yourself what it is 04:12:33 and after telling yourself, type that in 04:12:40 I looked a few seconds at the logs and wow Zuu wow 04:13:17 i went to a Zuu once but there were too many monkeys inside so i left quickly 04:16:43 monqy: im seriously his enemy forever 04:16:51 i want to find out where he lives and fly over there and open the door and say 04:16:54 hi do you go by "Zuu" on irc 04:16:58 and hell say yes why who are you a- 04:16:59 is he still existing 04:16:59 and that - 04:17:02 will be me punching him 04:17:03 monqy: hes online 04:17:10 he didnt reply though :( 04:19:41 i am glad i am not in any channels he is in unless he is in good channels in which case i feel sorry for the channels :'( 04:20:14 http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/announcing_olduse.net/ 04:20:14 ^ 04:20:15 yes 04:21:28 http://blog.longnow.org/2011/06/17/major-update-on-the-10000-year-clock-project/ so cool 04:21:47 excavations 04:21:49 you're cool. 04:21:54 monqy: yep 04:23:36 When you build this thing, please display a prominent notice, in a multitude of languages, that we do *NOT* expect the world to end when the clock overflows. 04:23:37 :---D 04:23:39 elliott, is that olduse thing a Zuu thing, or something actually possibly decent? 04:24:22 what 04:26:56 what the fuck is the point of time anyway 04:27:09 by which i mean is the clock just gonna be like buried or will it be seeable 04:27:50 seeable 04:27:55 also i don't recall ever see 04:27:56 yeah 04:28:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_of_the_Long_Now btw 04:28:07 good reading 04:28:24 i will re 04:28:40 I want to build a clock that ticks once a year. The century hand advances once every one hundred years, and the cuckoo comes out on the millennium. I want the cuckoo to come out every millennium for the next 10,000 years. If I hurry I should finish the clock in time to see the cuckoo come out for the first time. 04:28:40 — Danny Hillis, The Millennium Clock, Wired Scenarios, 1995 04:28:49 "Longevity: The clock should be accurate even after 10,000 years, and must not contain valuable parts (such as jewels, expensive metals, or special alloys) that might be looted." 04:28:52 this stuff is intersting 04:28:54 like that radiation field 04:29:00 all the talking of how to convince people not to enter 04:30:33 clockwork more like playground 04:32:29 oh it required maintenance 04:33:24 i thought at most there'd be a population of humans that live inside the clock and keep it going without ever interfering with other humans, teaching their children to do the same 04:33:45 the guardians of time we'd call them 04:33:48 lol 04:33:51 support 04:34:00 and they would have the hugest beards. 04:34:59 ticks once a year huh 04:35:05 how wonderfully boring 04:35:10 lol 04:35:15 it ticks more than that 04:35:18 it just chimes once a year 04:35:19 :( 04:35:29 wait no 04:35:32 it ticks once a year 04:35:33 that's just gay 04:35:34 okay 04:35:35 and chimes every thousand 04:35:35 cool 04:35:43 no cuckoo every mil says wp 04:35:54 So, my mission to make a minimal Linux system that can successfully build itself has resulted in something *somewhat* larger than I would've liked. 04:36:10 oh 04:36:26 Though at least I was able to beat Perl into being reasonable. 04:36:36 perl? reasonable? 04:36:40 does your program now contain every possible bit? 04:37:08 i once wrote a program whose source code contained every bit in existance 04:37:17 me too 04:37:24 :o 04:37:37 monqy: By "reasonable" I mean "I only have miniperl. As /bin/perl." 04:37:43 monqy: mine even had multiple copies of 0 04:38:01 pikhq: and it works? I've never heard of it. will look it up 04:38:04 oklofok: daaaaaaaaaaaang 04:38:15 monqy: Miniperl is part of the Perl build process. 04:38:21 You see, Perl needs Perl to build Perl. 04:38:35 But Miniperl just needs a reasonable C environment. 04:38:42 So it builds Miniperl to build Perl. 04:38:57 I only have it there because Linux requires Perl. 04:39:23 Also, though I'm reasonably confident it'll work, I haven't *tested* it yet. 04:39:31 I literally just got it to boot. 04:41:08 ... And forgot to set a root password. Which makes things somewhat difficult when I'm actually using busybox getty. 04:41:29 nah 04:41:54 By which I mean "I forgot to make /etc/passwd". 04:42:00 the website says it generates a different chime sequence everyday oklofok 04:42:58 *Aaaaah*, that's better. 04:44:28 "free -m" reports 8 megs used. That feels positively amazing. 04:46:19 -!- augur has joined. 05:03:34 Welp, let's see what breaks. 05:18:32 Apparently "the toolchain" 05:19:31 "sh: ./a.out: not found" 05:40:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:40:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 05:40:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:45:40 The Long Now Foundation has purchased the top of Mount Washington near Ely, Nevada which is surrounded by Great Basin National Park, for the permanent storage of the full sized clock, once it is constructed. It will be housed in a series of rooms (the slowest mechanisms visible first) in the white limestone cliffs, approximately 10,000 feet up the Snake Range. The site's dryness, remoteness, and lack of economic value should protect the clock fro 05:45:40 m corrosion, vandalism, and development. Hillis chose this area of Nevada in part because it is home to a number of dwarf bristlecone pines, which the Foundation notes are nearly 5,000 years old. The clock will be almost entirely underground, and only accessed by foot traffic from the East once complete. 05:45:42 so cool 06:10:14 Gotta love Long Now. 06:12:03 yeah 06:12:11 although the whole point of the project kind of baffles me 06:14:15 brian eno is involved, suspend all thinking for the sake of cool please 06:14:45 it strikes me as kind of reactionary, but i suppose their goal is better than a societal meltdown 06:15:37 at the same time i find a lot of what they say makes sense and seems kind of obvious, but then lots of things seem obvious to me 06:16:05 What seems obvious to you is almost impossible to others. 06:16:34 misanthropy: an unproductive position? 06:16:43 experts disagree 06:20:27 elliott: wha 06:20:31 coppro: wha? 06:20:36 t are you responding to 06:21:31 It's so very comical running GCC in a minimal changeroot. 06:21:52 8m for the whole OS. 200m for the compiler. 06:21:53 coppro: question mark 06:22:19 elliott: your comment about misanthropy 06:22:21 is 3.0 still not out yet 06:22:26 coppro: in response to What seems obvious to you is almost impossible to others. 06:22:31 elliott: 3.0 of what? 06:22:37 pikhq: linux 06:22:59 No, though rc6 got pushed late last night. 06:23:47 Erm, no, it was tagged July 4th. My thinko. 06:23:57 UNAMERICAN 06:23:58 Length: 76737255 (73M) [application/x-bzip2] 06:23:58 ugh why is it so big 06:24:12 Linux has a fuckton of shit in it. 06:25:04 2.6.0 was 32M... 06:25:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:25:19 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 06:25:19 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:26:27 it's all drivers 06:28:46 pikhq: im going to make smaller system 06:28:50 feel my power 06:29:04 elliott: Good luck. 06:29:39 swap? who needs it 06:29:58 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:30:03 elliott: that's not zepto enough 06:30:24 what isnt 06:30:24 swap 06:30:26 or not having swap 06:31:24 block layer?? no way 06:36:19 pikhq: does it count if you have to use the serial port 06:36:27 -!- derrik has joined. 06:37:07 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:38:36 pikhq: 06:38:47 elliott: Meh. 06:39:10 pikhq: that's a yes or no question 06:39:21 elliott: Sure, whatever. 06:39:30 you're just upset because i'll win :( 06:39:36 System is 452 kB 06:39:36 with monitor support 06:39:46 elliott: I'm trying to make a bootstrapping system. 06:39:50 pikhq: so am I 06:39:56 elliott: Good fucking luck. 06:40:00 Perl comes to ~50M. 06:40:11 pikhq: i said it would be smaller than yours, not small 06:40:26 pikhq: why aren't you using microperl 06:40:34 Because Linux won't build with microperl. 06:40:38 fix linux 06:41:40 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:41:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 06:41:41 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:42:03 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:43:04 wonder what it means if I get nothing after "Booting the kernel." :) 06:46:38 it means that everything is working fine. 06:48:22 -!- cheater_ has joined. 06:54:37 -!- aloril has joined. 07:01:29 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:31:51 http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/07/10/a-logic-oddity/ yay I spotted the flaw in a decent amount of time 07:32:48 (I think) 07:33:31 Hmm, it's more interesting if you make it probabilities instead of certainties. Certainly the problem as phrased deals with probabilities 07:33:56 I think it pretty obvious. We're not dealing with deductive logic here. 07:34:52 So you can't really do modus ponens on this. 07:34:57 * Sgeo was thinking more that "If it’s not Reagan who wins, it will be Anderson." is in fact true >.> 07:35:08 Sgeo: Yes, that's 100% certain. 07:35:21 However, it's not 100% certain that a Republican will win. 07:35:26 It's merely probable. 07:35:41 Erm, wait. 07:35:42 No. 07:35:45 Sorry, misread you. 07:35:48 That's not true. 07:36:15 Because it's not 100% certain that a Republican will win, you can't conclude that either Reagan or Anderson will win. 07:36:28 If a republican wins, oh shit. 07:37:29 What happens if you assign the first two statements numerical probabilities 07:38:11 I think my initial "flaw" thought was wrong 07:38:14 Then you're dealing with a form of inductive logic, and can get the probability that if Reagan doesn't win, Anderson will. 07:38:25 i.e. That works just fine. 07:39:09 (I'm not too familiar with the relevant formalisms, though, so can't say more than that, really.) 07:45:42 the logic there makes me squirm 07:49:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:49:25 coppro: The problem is only that the premises aren't necessarily true. 07:49:36 It's entirely valid modus ponens. 07:50:02 Which part is valid modus onens? 07:50:51 It's of form "a->b;a;therefore b." 07:51:09 See? Valid. 07:51:34 pikhq: which part specifically, though? 07:51:42 ... That's the entire statement. 07:52:09 which part of the article 07:52:19 ... The syllogism? 07:52:24 ah 07:52:31 yes, you're correct 07:52:31 I'm restating the only thing in there that can be restated in that form? 07:53:10 The oddity comes about simply because a is not (entirely) true, and so we end up getting a not (entirely) true statement from perfectly valid reasoning. 08:00:45 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: no rush). 08:13:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:28:54 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:31:22 "Hash functions are typically one-way functions (these haven't been proven to exist yet, but at this time they're essentially non-reversible)." 08:35:52 wat 08:36:25 f(x)=1 is provably non-reversible :P 08:36:44 there are other conditions for a hash function duh 08:37:13 *one-way function 08:37:51 He just means that you can't find preimages without brute-forcing 08:38:09 hm right so f(x)=1 isn't even that. 08:38:29 yes, i dont know what he was quoting 08:38:54 but my point was that non-reversibility is not the most important property of hashes 08:39:58 it's also pretty nice when they are bijections 08:40:14 err, automorphisms? 08:40:20 is that the word? 08:41:23 And hash functions are demonstrably non-reversible as well. As are all functions that map from a space to a smaller space. 08:42:00 God, people, math isn't hard. :P 08:42:20 automorphism = isomorphism which is also an endomorphism 08:42:30 pikhq: i am considering the set of hashes over possible hash outputs 08:42:41 every hash should hash to a distinct hash 08:43:19 and non-reversibility without bruteforcing is meaningful in this contect 08:43:23 *text 08:45:57 haha guys 08:45:59 you realise that 08:46:00 when i quote osmething 08:46:02 its because its stupid 08:46:03 stop talking 08:46:15 He just means that you can't find preimages without brute-forcing 08:46:32 Deewiant: E directly stated that one-way functions haven't been "proven to exist yet" 08:46:45 That might be what e /means/, but what e says is just confusing 08:47:02 when i quote osmething 08:47:10 An osmething is a thing made of osmium. 08:47:17 youre an osmefuckwit :( 08:47:18 I thought his meaning fairly clear from the rest of the message 08:47:42 Deewiant: Sure, you can obviously "decode" it, but that's not the point, you can decode most things, even nonsense 08:54:01 elliott: afaik, one-way functions _haven't_ been proven to exist. i believe they may require P != NP. 08:54:31 it's hardly well-defined 08:54:44 it's a value judgement 08:54:57 oerjan: Define "one-way". 08:55:07 Function for which there is not an inverse? 08:55:10 \x.1 08:55:13 -_- 08:55:24 pikhq: no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_function 08:55:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:55:49 Oh, sure, give a definition that makes the answer non-trivial. :P 08:55:52 it is _not_ the same as one-to-one/injective 09:08:24 although it's sort of related i think if you look at it from the point of constructive logic where objects to be proven to exist need to be constructible and if you then add the qualifier "in polynomial time" 09:09:36 *randomized polynomial time, if we go with the wiki article 09:09:43 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:21:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:30:14 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:39:51 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 09:41:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:06:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:06:26 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 10:06:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:09:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:26:08 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:58:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:00:54 -!- hagb4rd2 has quit (Quit: hagb4rd2). 12:11:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 12:11:29 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 12:11:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 12:17:33 so is there any reason why this wouldn't work? f (c x y) ls = map ($ y) . map ((c$).($x)) $ ls 12:17:43 where c is an arbitrary constructor. 12:18:10 (I mean, other than it being unsupported in Haskell. I'm talking about a possible extension) 12:21:00 ah, I see a problem. 12:22:21 There are undecidable types. The type of the first argument is a, but what is the type of the second? a list of functions from (...?) to (...?) 12:22:37 it can't be anything, because it depends on the constructors parameters. 12:23:00 which are not known at compile time. 12:34:00 CakeProphet: This does in fact type check http://hpaste.org/new 12:34:13 @unpl (c $) . ($ x) $ y 12:34:14 (c (y x)) 12:36:10 err http://hpaste.org/48909 12:36:33 but you likely mean something different and data T a b is not what you meant 12:36:46 azaq231: He meant having the T be variable 12:37:06 So you could e.g. have also data Y a b = Y a b and f could handle both T and Y 12:45:13 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:45:29 yeah, after thinking about it, it obviously wouldn't work with Haskell's type system. 12:46:39 it's always seemed reasonable to me to allow the tuple type to also represent a sort of anonymous data type with fields of a known type 12:47:10 thus (Int, Int) would represent any type (or subset of a type) constructed from two Int fields. 12:47:53 in that case you could type the above as (a, b) -> [b -> c] -> (c, a) 12:48:44 er [(c,a)] 12:49:40 actually no it would be (a, b) -> [a -> c] -> (c, b) 12:49:47 again, [(c,b)] 12:50:19 I shouldn't be reasoning about Haskell extensions while heavily in need of sleep after work. 12:54:34 but I think it would reasonable to simply make tuples a special kind of anonymous constructor, whose type is all values defined by a certain number of fields with a known type for each field. 12:55:29 but then it would be tempting to simply write all of your functions to return tuples when possible, since this would generalize the function to many different possible types 12:56:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:58:23 -!- cheater_ has joined. 13:40:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:40:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 13:40:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:01:47 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:01:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:18:38 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:28:43 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:41:30 -!- cheater_ has joined. 14:50:56 -!- augur has changed nick to mhosignal. 14:51:59 -!- mhosignal has changed nick to augur. 15:37:38 -!- derrik has joined. 15:44:15 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:58:06 -!- Lymee has joined. 16:27:37 -!- monqy has joined. 16:45:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:46:09 -!- cheater__ has joined. 16:46:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:48:17 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:00:17 -!- derrik has left. 17:20:36 hmm, do we have an opinion on what to do about languages like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Crazed (it has no real information on its page, and the author has lost the specs)? 17:22:20 i suggest a "lost languages" category... 17:34:25 the author suggested deletion 17:50:54 -!- iconmaster has joined. 17:56:55 alright 17:57:00 delete away 17:59:14 :( at lost language specs 17:59:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:00:42 :( at brainfuck with more commands 18:03:42 i dunno if i agree with that sentiment...if it's just that then yes, but i think some brainfuck derivatives have been quite interesting 18:04:01 OK, vaguely interesting BF variant: if you delete [ (and instead have all loops go back to the start of the program), is it still TC? 18:04:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:04:31 hmmm 18:05:19 so youd have to somehow store the entire branching path through the program on the tape to do different loops? 18:06:45 apart from . , and loops, BF is reversible 18:06:58 so presumably you could reverse the whole program so far just after each ] 18:07:14 i would believe it is TC if you wrote multiply in it 18:07:19 in order to give effectively independent bits of code 18:09:10 so is there any reason why this wouldn't work? f (c x y) ls = map ($ y) . map ((c$).($x)) $ ls 18:09:36 for one thing haskell is designed so that you cannot use constructors at all if they aren't exported from the module defining them 18:09:44 (for abstraction) 18:11:13 also the right side can be simplified to map (($y).(c$).($x)) $ ls 18:11:34 (in fact ghc will do so during optimization) 18:16:27 -!- Madk has joined. 18:16:42 Fuck yes 18:16:44 18:16:51 behold, progress 18:17:06 2YZZr™' 18:17:12 further progress has been made 18:17:38 awesome, stuff is moving along faster now 18:17:39 %''7RTTd 18:17:57 hi 18:18:04 my evolutionary algorithm is trying to squeeze "Hello, world!" out of my esoteric language 18:18:33 that most recent sample was from generation 1105 18:18:41 and took about 10 minutes 18:19:09 #%%:]__t—# 18:19:26 do you see that 18:19:34 that is great progress taking place 18:19:47 trololo 18:19:57 .QSSii# 18:19:57 Surface, right? Why do you need such a fancy algorithm when there's a reduction from brainfuck 18:20:11 because the instructions are wrapped around a rather small sphere 18:20:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:20:18 also, because I'm lazy 18:20:31 so instead of writing a hello, world example I wrote a program to write a hello, world example 18:21:54 also, I intend to apply the same code to other esolangs in the future 18:22:16 so I can make some examples for some of the more esoteric languages 18:22:26 i think your GA is too slow 18:22:47 it goes through quite fast 18:22:54 ~100 generations/minute 18:23:08 population? 18:23:09 thing is the complexity involved 18:23:13 a pool of 128 18:23:26 I could go larger, but I decided to try that 18:23:30 -!- Lymee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:24:24 -!- Lymee has joined. 18:24:35 maybe you could include the runtime in the fitness measure, to get faster candidates that should take less time to test 18:24:36 is it in blitzbasic too 18:25:54 olsner: I haven't allowed the program to use a termination command and the IP wraps, so that's a bit impractical at this point. I have set a maximum run time, though 18:26:02 monqy: it's in blitzmax, yes 18:28:12 sounds like you have some optimalization to do 18:28:26 probably 18:28:40 How exactly are you doing this hello world generation thing 18:29:30 I have a pool of initially random programs, I sample 4 of them at a time and replace the program farthest from the desired output with a combination of the best two, with some opportunity for mutation 18:30:03 the samples I've been giving you are the closest obtained output so far 18:30:08 random strings? 18:30:16 the esolang is 2d 18:30:22 so not really strings, but arrays 18:31:24 pfffft 18:31:35 same thing 18:31:50 the length isn't variable, so there's that difference 18:32:10 i was assuming they weren't 18:32:18 ok 18:33:27 hm 18:33:28 shoot 18:33:36 I just realized a mistake I made D: 18:33:43 And how do you measure helloworldness of an output / combine two helloworldy programs 18:34:00 I measure it by checking similarity of characters 18:34:15 not that complicated, but it is more than a 1:1 check 18:34:39 I combine them by using an almost 50/50 chance for each character, with a slight bias toward the program with the better score 18:35:05 mutation rate? 18:35:28 right now each character in an offspring is a 1 in 32 chance of being randomly chose 18:35:46 how long is an offspring? 18:36:04 program code is stored in a 32x12 array 18:36:05 Madk: So you know exactly what parts of each program produce which characters, and are able to separate them cleanly and stick them together nicely? 18:36:25 that is an awfully high mutation rate 18:36:35 monqy: I'm not really sure what you're asking 18:36:38 is there a way to decrease it over time 18:36:40 I'll reduce it a bit, then 18:36:46 I could do that 18:37:39 GA is a really inefficient search paradigm, you know 18:37:42 Madk: You said you combine your programs, right? I asked how you did that, and I reaced based on your response "< Madk> I combine them by using an almost 50/50 chance for each character, with a slight bias toward the program with the better score" 18:38:04 the distribution is random, if that's what you meant 18:38:13 Madk: that's not what I mean 18:38:25 oh, I see now 18:38:25 no 18:38:26 Madk: I mean how do you take two programs and mash them together in a sane way 18:38:35 it's very random 18:38:38 oh 18:38:40 not really sane there 18:38:55 quintopia: but it's so much cooler than just translating a brainfuck hello world 18:39:03 quintopia: if I intended to be efficient I would have written it manually 18:39:06 indeed 18:40:41 exactly 18:40:58 but why GA and not simulated annealing? 18:41:40 Madk: so for combining programs you just go over every character and pick it from one of the two constituent programs? I imagine this won't get you anywhere near hello world 18:42:00 quintopia: the end result can be more interesting 18:42:11 monqy: what could I do that would work better? 18:42:48 monqy: well you'd imagine the programs that survived might be related and so have the same structure, so it starts working better after a while? 18:42:49 I don't know. Breeding for hello world characteristics is not really a simple problem. 18:42:58 oerjan: hm 18:43:31 I did a much simpler GA not long ago that operated on a much less complicated esolang 18:43:40 though for an entirely different purpose 18:43:45 but the GA worked wonderfully 18:43:51 What was it? 18:44:04 it was more similar to corewar than anything else 18:44:13 I put a few programs in an arena 18:44:28 the ones that had the most health (eat food, attack others) bred and replaced the one that did badly 18:44:52 by about 100k generations I had some very complex and intriguing behaviors 18:45:30 And I assume the language was such that good breeding was easier 18:45:41 it was 1d and variable length 18:45:45 so only slightly 18:45:59 well that has little to do with it 18:46:09 if I remember right, some of the best ones had formed good loops structures 18:46:38 the one working currently and that one were only significantly different in that the previous was linear 18:46:47 linear? 18:46:49 1d 18:46:57 sorry 18:47:07 I still stand that that has little to do with it 18:47:13 ok 18:47:45 it's more about the structure of the language in the sense that it's easy to break it up structurally and muck with that 18:47:47 by 1000 generations, the programs I was working with now were outputting the same character twice where 'll' would be 18:47:49 rather than just doing character replacement 18:48:01 Madk: btw i was wondering how you do the sphere wrapping, since there is no entirely clean way of doing so (we had a discussion on channel previously of what surfaces have 2d grid graphs on them and they had to have the same euler characteristic as the torus, and the sphere doesn't) 18:48:03 it's very inefficient, indeed, but it's seemed to work 18:48:14 I have a 2d array 18:48:20 x wraps horizontally 18:48:27 the algorithm for y wrapping is like this: 18:48:47 when a pole is reached, x=(x+width/2) % width 18:48:53 and north and south are reversed 18:49:17 ah. so inspired by an ordinary world map, then. 18:49:21 indeed 18:49:45 it's no different than latitude/longitudinal coordinates 18:50:05 right. this makes the poles into special points. 18:50:47 it does 18:53:58 I had to scrap that progress because I was forgetting to reset program code after going through it 18:54:11 now's a good time to do things like change pool size, w/e 18:54:23 I adjusted the mutation rate to decrease steadily over time 18:54:35 I did a good deal of optimization 18:54:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:54:56 What are the haps my friends. 18:55:12 genererational algorithm to produce a hello world 18:55:21 I'm using an evolutionary algorithm to make a hello world example in my language for me because I don't feel like doing it myself 18:55:42 Madk? 18:55:46 me 18:55:52 that is my alias 18:55:58 Wow, I'm surprised you got anything but a steely reception here. 18:56:04 D: ? 18:56:26 (Yes I am tactless.) 18:56:32 pfft 18:56:45 for more information see http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Phantom_Hoover 18:56:52 monqy beat me to it. 18:57:06 oh 18:57:12 most of my languages aren't 18:57:15 I think 18:57:39 only 3 of them are really that similar to brainfuck 18:57:44 1 other is kinda close 18:57:56 4 aren't 18:58:04 Even one brainfuck derivative is too many. 18:58:12 w/e 18:58:21 anyway, I'm trying to figure the best pool size before I set it back in motion with some fixes I made 18:58:21 Brainfuck. Not even once. 18:58:41 I mean, you'd hardly let a Nazi off because most of the people he killed weren't even Jews. 18:58:50 maybe you wouldn;t 18:58:58 * oerjan hits Phantom_Hoover ===\__/ 18:59:09 is 128 good? 18:59:26 this is essentailly the one thing I can't go and change without scrapping everything 18:59:28 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans oerjan --===\#/ 18:59:48 Madk, how hard can pool size be to configure? 18:59:51 unless I want to inject a bunch of random crap into a developed pool 19:00:05 no, the point being once it's started I don't want to change the pool size 19:00:19 I can change pretty much anything else without impacting a lot 19:00:30 Sorry, which language is this? 19:00:35 it's in blitzmax 19:00:45 the point being it saves the pool every now and then 19:00:53 so I can pick up from where it leaves off 19:00:58 No, I mean the target language. 19:01:01 oh 19:01:02 surface 19:01:02 The one you want HW for. 19:01:07 Um... 19:01:18 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Surface 19:01:47 You reduce it to Brainfuck in the article; how hard can it be to just rewrite the BF HW? 19:02:08 Phantom_Hoover: but but, that would be derivative! 19:02:11 because the space available is too small to translate it like that 19:02:12 and that 19:02:17 * oerjan whistles innocently 19:02:33 oh this reminds me 19:02:36 I started one manually and thought, "what's wrong with me? I should be having the computer do this for me." 19:02:36 `quote unbounded 19:02:37 478) The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells. 19:02:41 Madk: what is this supposed to mean 19:03:05 monqy, it's the Orwellian definition of 'unbounded'. 19:03:19 that it's a limitation of the machine, not the language 19:03:28 sort of 19:03:28 It's unbounded... provided you don't go over the bounds. 19:03:31 yeah 19:04:14 you have complete freedom to follow big brother 19:04:23 yes 19:04:38 well anyway 19:04:44 I'm going on with me pool of 128 19:08:46 awesome 19:08:51 did it work? 19:09:01 stuff is maturing much faster now that it's working properly 19:09:28 there are a few commands that toggle to another when executed 19:09:32 was forgetting to reset them 19:09:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:10:05 and also forgetting to keep track of a program's success instead of re-running it every time I called it into question 19:10:14 so going generally much faster now 19:10:34 //;; 19:10:51 ##99GG 19:11:15 whoops 19:11:24 iconmaster 19:11:31 I did the unthinkable 19:11:38 ? 19:11:40 I registered an account on a furry forum just to contact you 19:11:46 I hope you appreciate this 19:11:47 I saw, lol. 19:11:50 :P 19:12:13 Sadly, the specs for Crazed have been lost for a long time. 19:12:28 that is too bad 19:12:47 In retrospect, it was a crappy language anyways, so no big loss 19:13:03 there are no crappy languages 19:13:03 My first esolang, to be percise. 19:13:06 only crappy programmers 19:13:07 I mean 19:13:22 ...Thanks Madk? 19:13:22 *whistles* 19:13:46 I've seen a few crappy languages 19:14:20 the progress being made in 5 minutes is good 19:14:33 this'll probably happen in a matter of a couple hours 19:14:48 `quote #%%:]__t—# do you see that that is great progress taking place 19:14:50 No output. 19:14:56 FURScript is pretty crappy. Snack too. 19:14:58 ##66YYll 19:15:12 yes 19:15:15 that was great progress 19:15:16 Oops again... 19:15:22 `addquote #%%:]__t—# do you see that that is great progress taking place 19:15:24 493) #%%:]__t—# do you see that that is great progress taking place 19:15:24 but my algorithm was kinda flawed 19:15:50 ` 19:15:51 No output. 19:16:01 how do I make it quote me 19:16:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:16:41 right now this is the best program so far 19:16:41 say `addquote "quote here" 19:16:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:16:43 ^ /^>e.v <]xe^zo+^]+> *>++(-c )\ 19:16:43 (c)? @!-^*)?-..z+*)+o--x@^-!!+ o 19:16:43 o)/o]c@c+z\]\eevz\ -\x 19:16:43 ](!@< c(c!.z+\+++/?\ 19:16:43 z]/x/++oo-]?c?!\/+! +x^+ 19:16:44 )v>o(*z>-@ox c\(c*-@x] c))vc>? o 19:16:44 ^*/x.o\!@e/^> 19:16:45 c @c\ .>^x*o. )@\-e^x\<\- ]^(<- 19:16:45 ) *<^z!e\).?/+(e@(cv>\c ]. ece? 19:16:46 c@z]/v+++++-! \e@c^/e?o) \] 19:16:47 * /cc@)\?o/o !^^-e /ec\>.!.>@*o 19:16:47 )/ vo]zx \\o< cz.(@v/c>..*>\+(@! 19:16:48 !^+x-xev@v)+vc\\]<+x?\>e *ee(z\< 19:16:56 woah 19:16:58 `quote Madk 19:16:59 http://j.mearie.org/post/7462182919/spoken-number-to-decimal shameless advertisement for obfuscated code. :p 19:16:59 493) #%%:]__t—# do you see that that is great progress taking place 19:17:03 oh 19:17:03 cool 19:17:43 there are no crappy languages 19:17:52 You should know what I'm going to say to that. 19:17:56 lifthrasiir: that looks awesome 19:18:04 what about the other way around 19:18:08 `quote iconmaster 19:18:10 No output. 19:18:13 Didnt think so. 19:18:26 ` quote Phantom_Hoover 19:18:27 No output. 19:18:28 Madk: 100 to "a hundred", for example? 19:18:34 Madk, no space. 19:18:37 yeah 19:18:42 `quote Phantom_Hoover 19:18:43 151) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. \ 155) how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. 19:18:44 that'd be certainly a bit-packing challenge. 19:19:02 I found the inverse direction is much more challenging and fun. 19:19:04 Although it's almost always better to use `pastequotes. 19:19:34 `addquote iconmaster `quote iconmaster No output. Didnt think so. 19:19:35 494) iconmaster `quote iconmaster No output. Didnt think so. 19:19:52 `pastequotes Phantom_Hoover 19:19:53 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30844 19:20:34 `quote 155 19:20:36 155) how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 19:21:29 `quote Sgeo's karaoke 19:21:30 400) [on Sgeo's karaoke] Sgeo: awesome sounds like a japan anime sound track \ 401) [on Sgeo's karaoke] That is the thing that made me into a gay vampire. 19:21:42 Huh, I thought there were more than that. 19:21:59 `quote 477 19:22:00 477) I go to clean up the shrapnel from a teabag and you're discussing the definition of god out of nowhere. 19:22:04 `quote 402 19:22:05 I think I still have sgeo's karaoke saved 19:22:05 402) Yeah, I went through a whole series of existential crises when I was 8 or so. 19:22:15 `quote 413 19:22:17 413) Vorpal: it's actually called Happy Vorpal: Do not use it. Use Parsec. This is the wisdom of ZOMGMODULES. 19:22:23 `quote 1 19:22:25 1) I used computational linguistics to kill her. 19:22:40 Madk, note that the quote numbering is highly unreliable. 19:22:45 `quote 42 19:22:46 42) i'm my dad's unborn sister 19:22:58 On account of elliott being a lazy bastard and just making it the line of the file the quote is on. 19:23:14 `quote 256 19:23:15 256) I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer. 19:23:43 YES 19:23:46 WE HAVE A ! 19:23:47 ##66YYll! 19:23:55 wat 19:23:56 ! 19:24:00 ! 19:24:04 ! 19:24:11 ‽ 19:24:17 s/A !/NO BANANAS!/ 19:24:17 Now for the "hello World" part. 19:24:20 !hello 19:24:25 Unknown command () encountered 19:24:32 this one has a ! and an l in the right places 19:24:32 ##66YYll! 19:24:35 wat 19:24:42 !show hello 19:24:42 c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); for (i=0;buf[i];i++)buf[i]=(buf[i]=='\n')?'\0':buf[i]; if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf); 19:24:47 Madk, out of curiosity, how are you defining the fitness function? 19:25:02 oh 19:25:33 note: score=0 should be a perfect match 19:25:33 heh i think it's erroring on the newline 19:25:34 Local score%=Abs(Len(output)-Len(desired))*1024 19:25:34 Local stop%=0 19:25:34 For Local x%=1 To Min(Len(output),Len(desired)) 19:25:34 If Mid(desired,x,1)<>Mid(output,x,1) And stop=0 stop=x 19:25:34 score:+Abs(Asc(Mid(output,x,1))-Asc(Mid(desired,x,1)))*(x-stop) 19:25:35 Next 19:25:35 Return score 19:26:05 hmm 19:26:20 for some reason I thought I'd also added a benefit for characters near where they belong 19:26:24 but apparently not 19:26:29 yeah 19:26:32 sounds bad 19:26:56 it should be like exponential increase in value of a letter as it approaches the desired value 19:27:02 Madk: hamming distance >:) 19:27:09 what language is that Madk? 19:27:19 blitzmax 19:27:19 yeah, that was an intention to make it develop left-to-right but it's doing the opposite 19:27:25 so that was my mistake 19:28:03 I might want to fix that and start over, I'm not sure 19:28:05 Madk: i'd imagine left-to-right would be more robust during evolution 19:28:09 yeah 19:28:17 also are you really only breeding one new program per generation? 19:28:19 that was the intention, I wasn't thinking clearly 19:28:21 no 19:28:28 all initial programs are generation 1 19:28:38 a new program is the greater generation of its 2 parents +1 19:29:11 then what actually does "100 generations per minute" mean? 19:29:36 also, you are caching scores for programs that are kept alive yes? 19:29:37 in one minute the average generation increases by about 100 19:29:40 yes 19:29:46 that's faster now 19:29:55 because I wasn't caching when that was the case 19:30:19 * oerjan detects some kind of basic 19:30:38 blitzmax has sort of basic syntax 19:30:40 sort of 19:30:47 as in, {} are replaced with words 19:30:53 other than that it's not really basic 19:31:00 it just looks prettier in that respect 19:31:57 it is advertised as being basic-like but that's very misleading 19:32:18 it's OO and just happens to have some stuff that's like basic in addition to it 19:36:54 ah it's descended from basic, wikipedia implies 19:36:58 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:37:25 yes, the guy who made it made a few basic languages before blitzmax 19:37:30 so its predecessors were basic 19:39:28 ok, how does this look for my fitness function 19:39:29 Local score%=Abs(Len(output)-Len(desired))*1024 19:39:29 For Local x%=1 To Min(Len(output),Len(desired)) 19:39:29 score:+Abs(Asc(Mid(output,x,1))-Asc(Mid(desired,x,1)))*(Max(Len(output),Len(desired))-Min(x,Len(desired))+1) 19:39:29 Next 19:39:29 Return score 19:39:44 again, the lower the score the more accurate the output 19:46:13 so 19:46:31 a parabolic curve towards the desired character/~? 19:49:42 -!- cheater__ has joined. 19:50:51 pretty much 19:51:58 372) DON'T MOCK ME WITH YOUR ABILITY TO DIVIDE BY TEN 19:58:41 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 20:15:45 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:43:28 -!- Madk has quit (Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.). 20:50:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:59:01 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:14:29 -!- aloril has joined. 21:26:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:07:46 * Sgeo is not happy about his phone being shattered 22:08:27 that's what you get for walking around near red mages holding an artifact 22:08:47 ..? 22:08:53 I have no idea what that's a reference to 22:12:11 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194147 22:17:21 i just saw a bug 22:17:36 "LC is a really nice language. I wasn't able to find a modern, untyped, lazy language." 22:17:42 LC means exactly what you think it meas. 22:17:45 i was like o_O and it was like O_o 22:17:54 *means 22:20:36 Phantom_Hoover: locale? 22:20:53 coppro, -_- 22:21:10 :-D 22:21:38 Lambda Calculus? 22:21:56 aaaand we have a winner 22:23:53 The prize is a phial of catalase in the ear! 22:31:02 -!- DocHerrings has joined. 22:37:08 DocHerrings! 22:37:20 Phantom_Hoover! 22:37:27 I assume that by now you have given up on the Eodermdrome interpreter. 22:37:38 oklofok, are the rumours of you writing an incredibly inefficient one true? 22:37:41 i implemented that once 22:37:45 lol 22:38:04 yeah, also it was asymptotically fast enough 22:38:08 Quite. There was no way to implement it nicely, so I decided not to implement it at all. :) 22:38:08 i think 22:38:14 -!- elliott has joined. 22:38:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:39:08 i think i did some small optimizations before abandoning it, there were no programs so i didn't quite feel the need to make it better. 22:39:28 anyway it's just a graph rewriter, i've written lots of those 22:39:51 I'm really kinda surprised. I don't think anyone else has bothered setting up a Linux system which is just barely capable of building itself. 22:40:01 Quite. There was no way to implement it nicely, so I decided not to implement it at all. :) 22:40:12 pikhq_: i think pikhq did that as well 22:40:18 oklofok: Smartass. 22:40:25 DDDDDDDddddddd: 22:40:29 And no, it didn't bootstrap until just now. 22:40:29 I think it's possible, but my incredible lethargy forbids me from working out further details. 22:40:37 Linux also needs GNU sed. 22:40:48 pikhq_: i don't actually recall if you were underscoreless last time although i have a vague feeling you were 22:41:16 I was. 22:41:18 Personally, I made a function that converted my tag system into a generalized structure of nil values, then attempted to compare them. But it was terribly inefficient. 22:41:55 and graph rewriting is np-complete since as a special case you need to solve the isomorphic subgraph problem, so you can't really completely solve the problem 22:42:06 but i'm sure you can solve all cases that actually occur in programming 22:42:24 oklofok, there's an algorithm which allows it to be done in polynomial time for fixed match subgraphs. 22:42:31 i.e. Eodermdrome match subgraphs. 22:42:32 hurr durr obviously 22:43:01 well yeah, given a single program, it will not be np complete to run it 22:43:04 Personally, I made a function that converted my tag system into a generalized structure of nil values, then attempted to compare them. But it was terribly inefficient. 22:43:21 My general inclination was "gensym all the tags". 22:43:23 but that's kind of beside the point since you need to run more than a fixed set of programs, it becomes relevant that the polynomial grows very fast 22:44:11 Are there hardware description languages without arithmetic? 22:44:26 " oklofok, there's an algorithm which allows it to be done in polynomial time for fixed match subgraphs." <<< from each node, do a depth n search where n is the number of nodes in the needle graph (as opposed to the haystack graph), obviously that's polynomial 22:44:50 because it's x^n where x is the size of the haystack 22:45:35 Phantom_Hoover: But how would you reliably compare all the gensyms? 22:45:40 i'm going to guess there's also an algorithm that works in x^(sqrt n), based on nothing really. 22:46:45 DocHerrings, you'd need to use a subgraph isomorphism algorithm, which is where the inefficiency comes in. 22:46:50 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Pardon me, but I have to go die in NetHack again.). 22:47:18 oklofok, don't polynomials have integral powers? 22:47:32 what do you mean? 22:47:38 Indeed, according to WP, positive integral powers. 22:47:38 oh 22:47:48 lol 22:47:53 are you joking 22:48:10 Phantom_Hoover: Seems to me that we have just agreed that the tag system is arbitrary. :) 22:48:16 f 22:48:17 elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 22:48:19 DocHerrings, yeah, hence gensyms. 22:48:28 so you'd call O(n) and O(n^2) polynomial time but O(n^1.5) not? 22:49:00 i suppose you were joking 22:49:11 Slight misunderstanding, I suppose. 22:49:20 perhapses 22:49:25 n is usually the changing thing 22:49:35 but not in what i just said 22:49:40 so umm 22:50:00 in x^n x is the haystack and n is the needle, and the needle is fixed 22:50:28 I suppose you could have O(n^1/2) if you were doing something to a matrix. 22:50:28 O(x^(sqrt n)) is still polynomial, since it is in particular in O(x^ceil(sqrt n)) 22:50:34 Somehow. 22:51:31 you have O(n^1/2) in many things 22:51:48 well okay not O(n^1/2) so much since usually you have to read the input 22:51:54 but n^3/2 22:52:00 is common enough i think 22:52:24 * oklofok tries to come up with a natural reason for that to occur... 22:52:48 obviously if there's some kind of squares being built that might happen 22:52:50 as you said 22:53:36 (might happen and often happens, just means you are linear w.r.t. height) 22:53:39 or width 22:54:12 Like, you have n integers and arrange them into a square matrix and then sum along one of the columns. 22:54:52 well n^3/2 occurs if you have to, for each column, do something in every cell, what you just described is O(n) if i understand correctly 22:54:55 Or wait, actually, I think just arranging n integers into a square matrix is O(sqrt(n)) 22:55:06 no it's O(n) 22:55:11 Hmm. 22:55:13 you have to go through the integers 22:55:15 :P 22:55:34 if you have n integers, and you touch all of them, that's at least O(n). 22:55:48 Assuming you have a square matrix as a C-style array of pointers to arrays. 22:56:12 well if it's already given like that then summing along say the first column would be n^0.5 22:56:21 as you said 22:56:42 you have n objects, and while summing you touch roughly every squareth of them 22:56:53 You work out sqrt(n), take its ceiling m, then go along each m places in the array of ints you have and sticking the pointer to it in the matrix array. 22:57:15 And then summing the side is just another O(sqrt(n)). 22:57:18 how do you work out sqrt(n)? 22:57:32 are you also given n in binary? 22:57:32 I thought that didn't count. 22:58:27 Assuming n has an upper bound, it doesn't matter. 22:58:51 in that case the working out takes a polynomial of log n time and is just not significant, and not spacewise either. then if you have random access and other real life computery stuff at hand, true, n^0.5 to make a matrix out of the array. 23:00:10 " Assuming n has an upper bound, it doesn't matter." <<< that's a dangerous way of looking at things though, said the mathematician 23:00:49 just say there's an additional log n space wasted but it is hidden by the invisible constant in the linear term 23:00:55 and same for time 23:01:06 oklofok i do not know all these fancy computer things 23:01:10 i am but a foolish youth 23:01:35 what thing did you not understand? 23:01:50 do you know what O(f(n)) means by the way? i usually assume cs people have a firm intuitive grip at least 23:01:59 even foolish youths 23:02:24 It's not actually that I don't understand, more that I'm tired and there are too many words for me to bother with. 23:02:42 oh well, i'm not saying anything important. 23:02:57 HOW UNUSUAL 23:03:05 my little toe has lost feeling again 23:03:11 numb most of the day :( 23:03:22 i think i'm dying maybe? 23:03:23 Freeze it into submission. 23:03:39 mwahahaah 23:03:43 Also you can't be dying it's colder here than it is in Finland in summer TRUE FACT, 23:03:57 :o 23:04:07 MARITIME CLIMATE BITCHES 23:04:10 it is actually reeeeeeeally hot i wish i had a fan 23:04:39 England is stupidly warm as far as I can tell. 23:04:45 you mean merrytime climate amirite 23:04:52 I actually took my jumper off for significant periods of time. 23:05:10 This is the summer you idiot. 23:05:24 Yes 23:05:25 But 23:05:30 I never take off my jumper 23:05:41 Unless there is a real risk of death. 23:07:20 Also there are no hills; how do you not go insane it is a mystery to me. 23:07:33 :-----D 23:07:56 we have upside down hills but they're full of water :( 23:08:17 Ah, but they are still hills. 23:08:25 certainly 23:08:36 a pair of gills and you're ready for some serious mountaineering 23:08:45 Perhaps I can lend some hills to the poor folk of England. 23:09:24 Oh wait no the hills have already spread to where elliott is. 23:10:56 Mystery solved. 23:11:25 * oklofok mutters something inappropriate about elliott's sanity and Phantom_Hoover's comment earlier 23:12:17 oklofok, come now, how can elliott be insane with all those hills. 23:13:08 good point 23:13:11 i want a theremin :( 23:13:40 elliott has a theremin IIRC. 23:13:48 oklofok: how can you want a theremin and complain about other people's sanity at the same time? 23:13:59 olsner, he does not have enough hills. 23:14:04 have i sain i'm sane 23:14:16 i tell you what: i ain 23:14:17 ' 23:14:23 but umm 23:14:30 yeah theremin has got elliott, that's what reminded me 23:18:18 hmm, elliott has the theremin and the theremin has got him, are they in a relation of mutual ownership? 23:18:25 yes! 23:18:34 what a lovely idea 23:19:14 sounds like a degenerated cocktagon 23:19:19 It is like having a cat. 23:20:12 ^ 23:22:17 Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_tk-XrXFHo 23:23:33 I like the way the cats, when confronted with a new thing, try to eat it. 23:23:51 This is essentially what a world run by cats would be like, 23:24:07 They would invent the wheel and then eat it. 23:24:11 It's a good way to handle problems. 23:24:13 oh, he owns both cats and a theremin, that must make some complicated ownership graphs 23:24:16 cat massage 23:24:25 major whisker watch alert 23:24:34 invent massage and then eat it 23:24:35 unless it just becomes a complete graph where everyone/thing owns everyone/thing else 23:24:43 oklofok, please inform olsner that you cannot have very complicated graphs with only three nodes. 23:24:55 Phantom_Hoover: did you count the cats? 23:24:55 you can if the connections get knotted 23:25:18 you can make at least up to K5 based only on that video, assuming an unshown human owner 23:25:35 olsner, oh OK. 23:25:45 there's also *another cat* added since the video was filmed 23:25:48 THERE ARE ONLY TWO DIFFERENT CONNECTED UNDIRECTED GRAPHS WITH 3 NODES MISTER OLSNER 23:25:51 oh wait 23:25:56 one of them is extremely complicated 23:26:16 oklofok: the graph is directed though 23:26:25 oklofok, it's almost as mysterious as cDonald's Theorem. 23:26:26 oh yeah 23:26:54 cats and a theremin :D 23:26:58 i'm gonna watch that! 23:27:18 whoa 23:27:19 Perhaps the classification of these graphs could provide crucial insights into it. 23:27:19 guys 23:27:22 what if cDonald's theorem 23:27:24 was a graph 23:27:28 with only one node 23:27:39 MY GOD 23:27:54 connecting back into itself in a manner bordering on the circuitous 23:27:59 Ho hum. Making a efficient implementation of /// is lisp is kinda fun. 23:28:04 a sort of... one-element tangle. 23:28:08 a circale. 23:28:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 23:29:13 awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 23:29:14 Wait elliott we need to make sure that oklofok understands cDonald's theorem. 23:29:17 hmm, K5 is an undirected complete graph of 5 nodes, I wonder what the standard name is for the corresponding directed graph 23:29:30 (that's the one I actually meant) 23:29:48 i dunno what cdonald's theorem is :\ 23:29:57 oklofok, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI 23:29:58 but i can check if i understand it 23:30:04 Familiarise yourself with this material. 23:30:24 cats are sooooooooo cute :D 23:32:20 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:33:03 45000000000 => 45000000001 BING 23:33:11 classic 23:33:19 This is only the beginning. 23:33:26 oh and the ? 23:33:37 oklofok: not proven to exist and be a number yet, obviously 23:37:02 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:37:21 oh cdonald's theorem is therefrom 23:37:28 perhaps i should've guessed. 23:37:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:40:22 oh my ... cats that play the theremin :/ irresistable 23:41:49 cats are so cute :DSDSDDS 23:44:19 -!- cheater__ has joined. 23:45:47 cheater__: aren't cats cute? 23:45:57 i think cats are cute :D 23:46:15 kill all cats 23:46:46 JUST KIDDING!! kitties are cute. 23:47:32 !sh killall cat 23:47:33 cat: no process found 23:48:17 I think cats are not cute, they just *look* cute as an adaptation to a world where looking cute brings them food 23:48:24 oklofok, cat is a substantial part of my GNU/Linux kernel quine 23:48:49 so i have my energy drink in a can 23:48:52 and the can is frozen 23:49:15 and i opened it just enough for stuff to slowly spill out through the invisible hole 23:49:26 genious really 23:49:27 oh yah? cute? say that to satan cat http://www.inquisitr.com/26619/satan-cat/ 23:49:57 the problem with drinks is they are homogenous, why not have like compartments in the can 23:50:08 what for 23:50:39 well you know, many drinks in one 23:50:44 12:45:29: yeah, after thinking about it, it obviously wouldn't work with Haskell's type system. 23:50:50 separated by these weird little bubbly compartments 23:50:51 CakeProphet: see Data.Data, Data.Typeable 23:50:52 yeah, mix the drink and put it in the can 23:50:54 this is a syb type thing 23:50:57 multiple drinks in one. 23:51:05 alternatively use fluids that don't mix 23:51:10 like say... oil and water 23:51:23 i'm sure you'd enjoy that wouldn't you WOULDN'T YOU 23:51:40 18:04:01: OK, vaguely interesting BF variant: if you delete [ (and instead have all loops go back to the start of the program), is it still TC? 23:51:44 no, all loops terminate immediately 23:52:18 cheater__: mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once 23:52:42 oklofok: ... which is why drinks are usually sold in individual containers 23:52:52 and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. 23:52:57 what is the point of making containers with subcontainers in them? 23:52:57 oklofok, how did you know my hobby 23:53:26 simultaneous parallel audition is the best 23:53:30 olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourself 23:53:40 not everyone knows what sequences of drinks taste the best 23:54:47 18:55:42: Madk? 23:54:47 18:55:46: me 23:54:47 18:55:52: that is my alias 23:54:47 18:55:58: Wow, I'm surprised you got anything but a steely reception here. 23:54:47 this is just going to be painful 23:54:50 prediction of the next few lines 23:54:54 YOU SEE WE ALL HATE YOU ESPECIALLY ME 23:54:56 GO AWAY 23:55:53 18:58:41: I mean, you'd hardly let a Nazi off because most of the people he killed weren't even Jews. 23:55:53 18:58:50: maybe you wouldn;t 23:55:53 "but _I_ would" 23:55:54 drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drinkdrink 23:56:05 *-drink 23:56:09 oklofok: do you have a newslatter 23:56:34 oklofok: also when is the National Museum of Modern Drinks opening 23:56:42 oklofok: ok, this idea is making a lot of sense to me 23:57:17 but I would be too lazy to make it work 23:57:48 I don't care about canposers conveying ideas, I care about drinking something that tastes good 23:57:54 19:02:37: 478) The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells. 23:57:54 this is still great :D 23:58:01 olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both the element of composing and choice, it's kind of like an rpg really 23:58:03 olsner: everything is art, but everything isn't art by default obviously 23:58:07 you have to make things art 23:58:10 oklofok's next project 23:58:14 the shitting museum 23:58:24 elliott: woah, you have to make art art? yourself? 23:58:34 olsner: no. oklofok does it for you 23:59:27 What are the best Free-software ARM emulators? 23:59:28 `addquote mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourself not everyone knows what sequences of drinks taste the best 23:59:29 495) mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. olsner: the point is you don't have to 23:59:36 `addquote drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both the element of composing and choice, it's kind of like an rpg really 23:59:36 496) drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, 23:59:42 best two part quote