00:00:57 -!- itidus20 has joined. 00:01:08 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:01:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:03:27 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:03:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 00:03:27 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:17:51 I have now made approximately one third of the DVI optimizer program. 00:45:28 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 00:50:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:10:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:12:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:13:47 -!- myndzi has joined. 01:21:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:35:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:35:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:43:43 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:45:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:46:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:47:22 I found list of spells of D&D game including "Explosive Familiar" it makes the caster's familiar explosive, and "Feign Invisibility" which causes others to believe the caster is invisible even though they can clearly see the caster, they must think they can see him somehow even if he is invisible. 01:48:21 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:50:08 -!- yorick has joined. 02:43:18 Do you know Double Fanucci? 02:58:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:02:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:40:55 zzo, sort of like how stage hypnosis is supposed to work eh. 03:42:10 i've seen an [obviously staged] video of a guy who hypnotized a woman to think he was invisible and then he would tickle her with a feather and make her look up with confusion 03:42:20 on youtube 03:42:45 zzo38: do you know any good math games? 03:43:00 but i am trying to put such bizzare fetishes behind me. 03:43:22 it might not have been youtube :-? i forget 03:44:17 and there is that book whose name i am not sure of which apparently has this word fnord which the citizens have been conditioned to block out 03:44:32 instilling fear in them because it is present in their texts even though they cannot conciously see it 03:46:59 as far as I know, the actual experience of such things is a deep form of submission whereby you let someone force you to fake it till you make it 03:47:21 fungot: do you know anything about this? 03:47:22 oerjan: computergram via first! peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter norton, founder of peter deutsch and warren teitelman ( all the major problems, consider that " if the translators of the 03:47:29 ^style 03:47:29 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 03:47:35 ^style irc 03:47:35 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 03:47:49 fungot: could you elaborate on that? 03:47:50 oerjan: 1-based would be confusing? i hope i someday understand call/ cc will restore the stack and the registers. 03:48:04 fungot, you disappoint me. 03:48:04 oerjan: i'm just curious if he had his student do it :) 03:49:00 something is wrong, i cannot see fungot's fnords. oh wait... 03:49:01 oerjan: yes... roots are bad... 03:49:37 So, who has the mysterious libc.so? 03:50:05 it was after a girl in a chatroom started actually doing this to me that I knew I had to leave her. 03:51:54 Sgeo_: some guy called Error: Malformed requestDomain Name 03:55:47 -!- Lymee has joined. 04:07:39 quintopia: I don't know a lot of math games 04:07:54 Although there are some games that you can possibly involve mathematics with 04:07:58 hmm 04:08:02 math games.. 04:08:04 for example? 04:08:42 quintopia, single or multiplayer? 04:08:47 multi 04:09:02 I don't have a specific example; I just mean in general some specific things having to do with certain games might be related to mathematical involving things, or maybe I wrote something wrong I don't actually know how to say this so I write like this is all mixed up sorry 04:10:52 I have a small stash of ebooks which I more or less just hoard and don't investigate, some of which may actually be relevant. 04:13:30 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers some computer game from when he was a kid 04:14:03 When playing pokemon card I play for overmate. (Even if overmate is not relevant to the rules being used; it is certainly not relevant in the standard rules.) 04:14:25 lewis carroll, raymond smullyan, douglas hofstadter 04:14:46 i don't know if they entirely reach the topic. 04:14:52 I have one book written by Douglas Hofstadter. 04:16:16 i am sure john conway is relevant to the topic but i don't have any ebooks that are really related to him 04:19:41 winning ways, probably 04:20:39 puzzles are more common than actual games 04:21:16 * oerjan has simon tatham's lightup in the other window 04:23:26 depressing wiki comment backs me up "This article is about using mathematics to study the inner-workings of multiplayer games which, on the surface, may not appear mathematical at all. For games that directly involve mathematics in their play, see mathematical puzzle." 04:25:12 maybe things aren't so bad 04:25:19 anyway here is the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_game 04:28:07 all the math games i know are too hard for mere humans to do in their heads 04:30:34 As a wannabe game designer it gives me great pain to think about how the only reason games are possible is due to imperfections in the players. 04:31:08 relative to perfect play that is 04:31:37 but thats probably a naive view i hold too often 04:32:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:32:49 That is the cynical depressing view that all gaming is to demonstrate some level of deviation from perfect play higher than the opponent. 04:33:35 Then again we find that perfect play is a waste of time. 04:34:02 And yet it helps motivate us to play if we idealize perfect play. 04:34:18 All of this of course is my cynical views which are probably wrong. 04:35:57 this is only true of mathematical games 04:36:08 and not even all of those 04:36:17 im full of shit ^_^; 04:36:42 here's an example: the simple three player game help-or-hinder 04:36:56 it's practically unanalyzable 04:37:16 so winning has nothing to do with perfect players... 04:37:39 i analyze things too much 04:37:39 -!- Elizacat has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:38:03 i can think of arguments against my earlier comments but its all just a pile of crap comments 04:38:41 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:38:49 humm 04:39:03 you know what i havent seen much is coop games 04:39:34 i was talking to this guy once about it 04:40:32 -!- Elizacat has joined. 04:41:49 Now I have the DVI file of my and my brother character sheet. Currently it has no story text or footnotes. 04:42:26 omg the first result on google is an xkcd page 04:42:36 -!- mtve has joined. 04:42:49 Result of what? 04:43:20 http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16990 04:43:42 omg quintopia posted on that page 04:44:41 yeah, i am skillful googler 04:45:31 good find 04:46:47 Did you expect the Spanish Inquisition? 04:47:13 well i searched on: "3 player game" "help or hinder" 04:47:24 didn't work in bing so i proceeded to google and it did 04:47:41 OK now I know what you search 04:47:56 yet an MS spokeswoman says "if google didn't exist bing would be good enough" 04:48:52 i didn't remember that that guy invented that game 04:49:01 anyway, it's a good example 04:49:15 yeah good enough for me to use as fertilizer 04:49:47 3 player eh 04:50:00 so.... by having an odd number of players the dynamics become much more complex 04:50:42 Isn't Diplomacy a 7 player game? 04:50:55 Not really mathematical in that way though 04:51:12 Although I wonder what would happen if you took the board out and just made it that sort of game 04:52:08 this very sort of topic is what eventually led me to a chatroom for esoteric programming languages 04:53:14 so this page is like anti-3 player games 04:53:17 but i am all for it 04:54:21 ashbash makes the point 04:54:23 Theoretical maximum overmate in pokemon card is eight. Try to design a situation using only cards in Pokemon Card GB2 where the player whose turn it is can win with eight overmate on this turn. Better if the number of things that must be done is increased and/or if chance based things are involved although when combining them properly you can guarantee a win 04:54:50 chance is fun. 04:55:42 oh 04:55:50 an idea just came to me, 04:56:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phutball this one is good. solving it is PSPACE-complete! 04:56:29 Alternatively, instead of overmate (since overmate is not standard rule), do such that you have six side cards remain and zero cards in draw pile, opponent has many cards in draw pile but only one side card remain. And you are poisoned. 04:56:48 i am a genius of course.. so ideas often come to me 04:57:33 but you are keeping it to yourself 04:57:34 tell me 04:57:37 ok i am "confident" you have not heard of this game before 04:57:51 This is "The Ultimate Pokemon Card Puzzle Game". 04:58:01 so.. each player has 2 private 8x8 boards 04:58:17 following with me so far? 04:58:50 itidus20: OK. So far. But that isn't much. 04:59:02 they each have a pair of 8x8 boards that only they can see.. thus a total of four 8x8 boards 04:59:09 OK 04:59:34 they also have a bunch of tiles... lets say 128 tiles just to be safe 04:59:45 128 each 04:59:55 OK. 05:00:16 That should be sufficient to cover the board unless they are allowed to be stacked. 05:00:25 and uh.. 2 more tiles of a second color.. and 2 more tiles of a third color 05:00:50 so.. color 1) 128 tiles, color 2) 2 tiles, color 3) 2 tiles 05:00:51 OK what are these second and third colors mean? 05:00:56 hehe 05:01:26 I understand so far what you have written, but not sure of its significance yet due to you can write it later the rules, and then is known its significance to the game. 05:01:43 ok now.. they begin by placing color 3 tiles on the boards.. 1 on each board 05:01:59 at location.. x = 4, y = 8 05:02:31 OK. What next? 05:02:37 now, on one of the boards, they place a color 2 tile somewhere 05:03:09 so far so good? 05:03:31 OK. Do you place of your choice position? Is it allowed to stand on top of the other tile or not? 05:03:48 oh.. its allowed anywhere except the first tile position 05:03:55 OK. 05:04:10 for now.. that rule might turn out to need altering 05:04:52 ok.. next.. you build a maze with the color 1 tiles leading to the color 2 tile 05:05:14 from the color 3 tile to the color 2 tile 05:05:26 OK. (I was going to ask exactly that) 05:06:50 diagonal moves are not possible, but the maze has to be a solid object in the way that a tetris piece is a solid object 05:07:00 uhh sort of 05:07:04 OK, I think I understand what you mean. 05:07:07 maybe it can have gaps 05:07:14 but uhhh 05:07:17 hummm blah 05:07:21 yeah anyway moving along 05:07:21 Have gaps? How would that work? 05:07:32 well im not sure.. this part is tricky to formalize in words 05:08:03 If you cannot do it in words, do it in pictures, or in mathematics. 05:08:11 so anyway... what happens is.. in any order.. doesn't matter.. each turn.. both players are told which directions have walls 05:08:21 so it might be like "east and west have walls" 05:08:34 OK 05:08:51 itidus20: the easiest way to say what i think you are trying to say is "no 2x2 region can contain no color 1 tiles" 05:09:08 and then the player tells the other player which direction he makes his move 05:09:13 I think I can see what this is doing a bit 05:09:33 and both players update their boards.. and its a race to reach the end of the maze 05:09:37 but 05:09:44 why does each player have two mazes 05:09:49 oh 05:10:01 so they can construct the other player's maze on their own board 05:10:04 yup 05:10:14 its not a bad idea right? 05:10:16 Yes I think I know exactly what this is now. 05:10:17 it's like multiplayer adventure game :P 05:10:40 except you can never be in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike 05:10:46 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:10:49 Something like battleships, except not battleships at all. 05:11:20 an idea: what if the mazes can be arbitrary graphs but every node has unique number? :P 05:12:10 sorry, i always try to make things difficult. for instance when i saw the phutball game i said "i wonder if it would be harder on a projective plane?' 05:12:20 Then it is somewhat similar to Wumpus game?? 05:12:21 oh i am empty of ideas now. just had to spill that one 05:12:39 or you can make it so the mazes are on tori! 05:12:47 that would be super interesting 05:13:04 quintopia: Have you ask on this channel a few days ago about FurryScript document? I have now written the document in case you were looking for it. Or, was it someone else who asked for it? 05:13:14 yes i saw you said that and thanked you 05:13:40 Maybe you can make a maze with the tiles and also chess as well. 05:15:48 it is by jumping into such random convos that such ideas come to me 05:15:51 i never get them on my own 05:17:04 zzo, yeah i like to consider every possible use of the chessboard other than to play chess :-? 05:18:37 itidus20: Yes you can make other games using the same or similar board. Some game similar to chess includes Xiangqi, Shogi, played with their own board, but it is still like chess, you still take turn moving 1 piece each, you attack opponent's king and can win, etc. 05:18:48 i actually created a wild image with my wacom tablet the other day to show my desire to stretch the game of chess 05:20:42 There are many variants and I have invented some chess variants. Some which are played with the same board. I made one game "123456 Chess" which is a chess variant that you can use a chess/checker/backgammon set. You start with rook standing on checkers, and two dice each with 1 on top at start. You can advance the dice which uses up a turn. Capture with checkers must be done if able. 05:22:05 Or, another game, once my brother put eight checkers in front of the pawns for joke. But then we decided to actually play that way. We discussed the rules although as it turned out both of us already agreed on the exact rules to use in our mind, before discussion! 05:22:11 I liked the chess variant shown on the big bang theory 05:22:26 i made my own game with chess pieces once. it had a much higher branching factor than chess, because it was possible to respawn captured pieces 05:22:53 http://oi55.tinypic.com/15n2fro.jpg 05:22:55 but the goal was simpler...simply to get a pawn to the opponents first rank 05:23:16 but i forgot the initial configuration and rules of motion 05:23:31 never wrote it down 05:24:34 damn 05:24:42 I have read of another variant where that is the case, win by a pawn on opponent's first rank. 05:25:09 But in that variant, it was otherwise as normal (FIDE) chess and you can win by checkmate too. 05:26:01 i dont like chess because i have no clue how to play.. and that being the best is ridiculously difficult 05:26:37 and a game like chess to me is the perfect thing to exploit into other games 05:28:33 I once had idea in Magic: the Gathering cards, a card, both players assign permanents to each chess piece (with not allowed two pieces for the same permanent), and then play chess. Any captured piece causes corresponding permanent to be discarded. In case of checkmated, losing player permanent corresponding to their king is discarded. 05:29:09 the maze thing is probably not as good in practice as it sounds. 05:29:33 itidus20: I believe you. 05:29:51 but the idea is fun 05:31:01 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 05:31:10 Yes, I think it is something like battleships, except that it isn't battleships at all. 05:31:13 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:32:05 Do you know how to play Magic: the Gathering card or play pokemon card? 05:32:10 you're right... its basically battleships except reduced down to 1 small ship 05:33:23 no i don't. 05:33:42 itidus20: i am getting another idea for a maze game 05:34:41 If anyone has idea, try to invent "The Ultimate Pokemon Card Puzzle Game". 05:34:57 this one will take some thinking since it is not symmetrical 05:35:03 zzo38: i'm not really into pokemon 05:35:52 quintopia: OK. You are not really into pokemon 05:35:57 quintopia: I once had an idea about generating a maze by dice rolls 05:36:57 itidus20: i want to make a cross between pacman and fox-and-geese, where the geese player is the only one who knows the maze and the positions of everything. 05:37:21 and only four geese/ghosts 05:38:01 zzo, i am fascinated by some dragonball z emulated roms based on card games 05:38:22 ah fox and geese.. i have a book around with a lot of games described 05:38:24 but the problem is you can't let the maze be designed by the geese player because they could make it a labyrinth (unicursal) and trap the fox too easy 05:38:24 I once had an idea about making up an entire set of rules for a chess variant by dice rolls. 05:38:44 zzo38: such games have existed since the beginning of chess 05:39:19 No, I mean, before the game starts roll the dice to determine each individual small part of the rules. And then the game is played without dice. 05:39:20 theres 1 special book about chess history which i have been unable to locate on the internet 05:40:02 oh 05:40:03 What book? 05:40:18 ill check my browser history 05:40:23 zzo38: make it a drinking game too 05:40:28 I do know, however, of chess variants with dice, including Ludus Equitum (roll two d6 dice to determine which two pieces you are allowed to move, and it is allowed to pass one or both parts) 05:40:35 quintopia: That's the only way I get anything done anymore~ 05:41:11 zzo38: that sounds similar to one particularly ancient one i was thinking of 05:41:13 A History Of Chess by some H.J.R. Murray 05:42:06 Ludus Equitum is not particularly ancient. It is relatively modern. However, it is the Society of Creative Anachronism game, so it is using old style rules. 05:42:43 itidus20: Surprisingly, I can't find it either. I thought I had a near comprehensive set of books on chess. 05:42:54 its very special that one 05:43:01 will be hard to find 05:43:52 I learned about it when I started to want to know about the very origins of chess 05:44:48 I hope I solve chess. That'd look great on a resume~ 05:47:27 theres something so compelling about chess.. but yet for me there is a certain boredom that i imagine with it 05:48:27 Chess is always exciting, unless you play with people who know a little about it 05:48:42 People who know nothing are interesting because they are hard to predict 05:48:56 People who know a lot are exciting because they think in the metagame 05:49:20 People who know a little have a small repertoire and decent middlegame. No fun at all 05:49:52 itidus20: I think I have also played some kind of card game Dragonball Z on NES, although I am unsure of the rule. Each card two numbers, one above is dots tell you how many times to move, the one below I am not sure what it means. 05:50:15 But I like pokemon card. 05:50:18 zzo38: I remember that game :D 05:50:20 zzo38: yeah.. thats exactly the kind of game i mean. they're fun to watch 05:50:31 I much prefer Magic to Pokemon 05:50:36 i have no clue what goes on though 05:52:20 I do know reading numbers with kanji, and also some words with hiragana and katakana, a bit. 05:52:48 oh well i think theres some translations anyway 05:52:56 but even still i would have no idea 05:54:27 so, zzo, did you learn much about chess variants? 05:55:22 i actually basically independantly discovered the theory of chess variants 05:55:45 and, at the end i googled it and found out with dismay that what i had discovered was nothing new at all 05:55:57 -!- Taneb has joined. 05:56:10 Hello 05:56:32 Theory of chess variants> 05:56:42 How is there a "theory" of such things? 05:56:51 But what I can tell is you are allowed to step in the same square twice when walking, and that when you have to fight it might be useful if Gokuu and Pikkoro stand in the same place because then you can have both on your side fighting. And there are also some item cards. And different tiles have different effect stepping there. Also "Z" seems to mean eight 05:56:56 perhaps theory is the wrong word.. but i will explain 05:56:59 itidus20: http://chessvariants.org/ 05:57:25 Anyone want a game of chess? 05:57:27 oh, well, by discovering it myself i had insight into exactly what chess variants are. 05:58:07 they are taking the properties of the individual pieces and forming an abstract class which you might call "chesspiece" 05:58:21 and.. deriving from that class.. new pieces 05:58:42 this general process is exceedingly powerful 06:01:40 Apparently a Whaling meeting ignored Whales! 06:01:44 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14153779 06:04:55 so naturally most chess moves resolve into vectors. either specific lengths or unlimited 06:05:40 now .. this creates a problem if you imagine a chessboard of say 1000x1000 ... do you still want some pieces crossing it in one go -- that is -- are unlimited movement vectors implied on boards > 8x8 06:05:57 its all very fun for a rainy day 06:05:57 I would assume so 06:06:55 Pieces such as the queen and the rook have less of a vector and more of an angle 06:07:40 of course one way around that would be to divide the board up into districts 06:07:54 where a piece has to stop at the edge 06:08:00 sort of 06:08:54 how about making it instead of pieces moving, they clone themselves into some available square. no piece ever moves, but they die after some fixed number of moves. 06:09:06 But what would happen at the border to districts? 06:09:20 Trees seem to be the most correct representation, at least to my mind 06:09:41 representation of what 06:09:46 chess games? 06:09:46 Chess 06:10:03 it is too general 06:10:11 any game is represented as a tree 06:10:14 What if they're moving in some sort of jelly? 06:10:21 Generality is a flaw? 06:10:28 yes 06:10:32 Different pieces can move further through the jelly 06:10:37 the trouble starts when you start trying to abstract moves like en passant and castling 06:11:10 then it feels like a scripting language would be useful 06:11:21 in the definition of the pieces 06:11:22 when a representation is too general to give insight to a human individual, it is not a useful model 06:11:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:11:29 You know, I've only played en passant once? 06:11:33 Ever? 06:11:47 en passant was a very late addition to the game 06:11:51 What insight are we after? Optimal strategy? 06:12:21 Optimal description of pieces and how they work, I think 06:12:47 En passant is the rule that no one knows about unless they play regularly. Most of the adults I played with recreationally when I was younger had never heard of it 06:13:05 Taneb: Ah, I see. Well, that does make a tree a little ridiculous 06:13:31 I've beaten someone who's beaten someone who was at one time the chess champion of Australia 06:14:28 I suppose what I'm curious about is what exactly we are trying to quantify about the pieces and their movements. 06:14:48 back 06:14:57 dandy: variant pieces 06:15:09 Ah, okay 06:15:12 well, i don't know. perhaps the conversation has multi-threaded too 06:15:22 which is nice 06:15:30 I'm pretty much in a conversation with myself 06:16:06 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:16:57 So I decided when I was thinking about chess variants that the minimal conditions I would find acceptable is a system which could describe all the rules of chess 06:17:27 including castling and pawns moving 2 spaces on their first go, and queening, and en passant etc 06:17:51 hmm 06:18:27 Are we talking a computational system, or a general formalization? 06:18:46 I did try for a little while. I think as I became aware of the existence of professionals who had already done a lot of it, I lost interest. 06:18:52 both :D 06:19:45 I had plans on making a program to do it but it started to make me sweat so by then i had thrown in towel 06:20:07 I wouldn't have done that 06:20:15 I would have used the towel to dry off the sweat 06:20:19 And then continued 06:20:27 Maybe got someone to bring you a new towel 06:20:29 I didn't have any exciting ideas anyway 06:20:48 Depends what you find exciting, I guess 06:20:49 I simply realized that chesspieces could be highly generalized. 06:21:48 Also, there is the draw I feel towards making a realtime chess 06:22:00 I have seen a youtube video of kungfu chess. 06:22:30 http://www.tempestchess.com/ 06:25:51 I feel a small joy reading "I would rather take the real-time chess concept as far as it can go." 06:26:52 but yeah.. sumo volleyball sounds like the kind of nonsense I would be looking to create 06:30:34 I would define a piece as: a list of vectors/angles defining how it can move 06:30:47 A boolean defining whether it can "jump" like a knight 06:31:10 And a series of scripts for special events such as castling, en passant, and promotion 06:31:29 Of course, pawns are weird 06:31:38 well, i decided to define a boolean named virgin for whether or not a piece has moved yet :D 06:32:27 How about a second series of vectors/angles defining how it can take, and if this is omitted, the movement one is used for this as well 06:33:08 i also abstracted the role of the king into an idea of like a squad leader 06:33:19 Also, somebody's spammed the wiki 06:33:22 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008 06:33:26 Can anyone here fix that? 06:34:20 First let me grab those sweet free Dutch dating links!~ 06:35:08 so uh.. you could have a chess army consisting of multiple squads.. 06:35:15 and if you take down the leader, the whole squad falls 06:35:58 yeah, i am full of ideas on this kind of thing.. it provides me some kind of perverse pleasure 06:38:15 I need to find a charger cable 06:38:31 Actually, can anyone recommend an IRC client for Windows XP? 06:39:06 YChat works. 06:39:08 Taneb: mIRC, Leafchat 06:39:11 I dunno how it compares 06:39:36 * Sgeo_ uses Silverex, which has "YChat" in the title bar 06:40:13 hmm.. seems they are related 06:40:29 Leafchat looks cool 06:40:41 looking on the about box one of the devs of this ychat has an email address silverex@silverex.org 06:41:15 I'm going to leave, shut down, have breakfast, turn on a different computer, install leafchat, and return 06:41:18 itidus20, so basically, you're using Silverex, which just puts YChat as the name of the program 06:41:20 Taneb: Leafchat's got perl scripting and so on, which is neat 06:41:21 But not yet 06:41:33 im using some version of it 06:41:40 i dont know 06:42:05 its listed as: X Chat 2 in the start menu 06:42:46 weird 06:45:29 Silverex is just a build of XChat 06:45:49 Use irssi-proxy and any client you like 06:45:53 Problem solves 06:45:57 *solved 06:46:21 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:08:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:08:18 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 07:10:33 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:11:03 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:11:14 Hello 07:11:32 Hiyo 07:13:25 This computer is quite slow 07:13:38 It was a normalish computer in 2006 07:13:44 So what did I do? 07:13:49 I installed Dwarf Fortress 07:14:30 Naturally 07:20:28 -!- mtve has joined. 07:24:30 So, what's happening in the world of esoteric programming? 07:25:04 You wouldn't have heard about it B-\ 07:25:35 "it B-\"? Sounds interesting 07:25:39 Could you elaborate? 07:26:27 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discoblog/files/2010/11/hipster-cat.jpg 07:26:44 There's no ironic hipster emoticon 07:26:50 This is their greatest triumph 07:32:33 Oh, why are ink cartridges so tricky to replace? 07:32:53 So you'll ruin them and have to buy more. 07:33:50 To punish you for not buying a laser printer. 07:34:31 I was holding it upside down 07:35:02 Still, you should definitely invest in a laser printer. 07:35:19 Y'know, a printer that you'll probably have to put in your will for your grandchildren. 07:37:23 I can't afford one of those! 07:37:37 A grandchild, not a laser printer 07:37:42 Ah. 07:37:46 You can afford only one or the other 07:38:00 NihilistDandy: Clearly the laser printer is the superior choice. 07:38:06 But you can't use Postscript on a grandchild 07:38:08 pikhq_: Exactly 07:38:18 Also, you need to have children first. 07:38:42 And in this anti-sanity economic climate, children are likely to cost you twice all the money. 07:38:45 pikhq_: Unless you're a creative adopter 07:40:18 Adopting pregnant adults, to minimise effort to gain grandchildren? 07:40:45 Taneb: You can have pregnant non-adults, y'know. 07:41:03 At least, as far as the US is concerned. 07:41:15 (it's a fairly common thing, though) 07:41:43 Yeah, but then you need to look after them 07:42:02 I was trying to minimise long term effort 07:42:41 I think it may be undoable in the Status Civitatis Vaticanae... 07:44:49 The way things are with the people of the Vatican? 07:44:56 As long as you didn't pronounce that in the style of Church Latin, I'm okay with it 07:45:22 stahtus kiwitahtis waticahn-eye 07:45:27 <3 07:45:40 GCSE Latin, hopefully coming this August 07:45:41 NihilistDandy: I actually find Church Latin somewhat unnatural. 07:45:47 pikhq_: Exactly 07:45:55 It's good for ominous chanting 07:46:05 Taneb: I'm so glad I'm not the only one who took Latin 07:46:10 I don't even really know Latin, I just know that Church Latin sucks. :P 07:46:34 (my knowledge of Latin is limited to: orthography, pronunciation, obvious cognates) 07:46:36 Church Latin is what happens when you let Italians ruin things :| 07:47:04 (and random things memorised courtesy of high school choir) 07:47:17 lingua latina Pateri mala est 07:47:26 Taneb: The age of consent in the Vatican is 12. 07:47:30 I learned more about English in two years of Latin than I did in all my other schooling 07:48:11 pikhq_: And no one is surprised~ 07:48:24 * NihilistDandy is a master of outdated topical humor 07:48:36 NihilistDandy: They copied most of the laws in existence in Italy in the early 1900s. 07:48:41 Including their age of consent. 07:48:49 And have since not changed it. 07:49:00 God did it. His Laws are unchanging. 07:49:01 "The claim is sometimes made that "In the Vatican State, there is an equal age of consent set at 12 years of age",[48] but this is incorrect. In 1929, when the Lateran Treaty was signed, the age of consent in Italy was 12,[49], and this was indeed adopted by the Vatican. However, as stated above, the rise in the Italian age of consent applied automatically to the Vatican City." 07:49:03 Duh.~ 07:49:09 ^From Wikipedia 07:49:17 Taneb: D'awww. 07:49:24 Well, that's my vacation shot 07:49:36 D: 07:49:44 It's 13 in Spain 07:49:47 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:50:24 And 12 in parts of Mexico 07:50:26 Spanish is an awful language :/ 07:50:26 o.O 07:50:31 But that's just me 07:50:39 Hong Kong has an age of consent of 16 for heterosexual sex. 07:50:44 And no age of consent for homosexual sex. 07:50:57 It's 9 in Yemen 07:51:03 But you have to be married 07:51:08 Precisely 07:51:10 Not because it's illegal to be gay. 07:51:13 Esoteric, indeed 07:51:30 But because the only law estabilishing an age of consent was struck down in the courts. 07:51:37 If the FBI asks, this was a very complex conversation about combinators 07:51:55 So, it's legal for Catholic priests to fuck little boys in Hong Kong. 07:52:09 "Note all the 'Y's" I'll say 07:52:13 But not little girls. 07:52:27 pikhq_: I'm sure complaints are minimal 07:52:35 My English Teacher moved to Hong Kong 07:52:53 And my piano teacher moved to China 07:53:06 Pedophiles, all 07:53:12 or *paedo, I guess 07:53:51 *pædo 07:58:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:00:09 -!- esowiki has joined. 08:00:50 -!- esowiki has joined. 08:01:39 -!- esowiki has joined. 08:02:18 -!- esowiki has joined. 08:03:01 -!- esowiki has joined. 08:03:01 -!- glogbot has joined. 08:03:22 Also, is it properly Mancuvian, or Mancunian? 08:03:36 For someone from Manchester? 08:03:46 yeah 08:03:54 Mancunian 08:04:14 Where the hell did I hear Mancuvian, then? :/ I've thought that that was the term for ages 08:04:27 I have no idea 08:04:33 Bizarre 08:04:43 I'm a novacastrian, incidentally 08:05:00 That's even better than liverpudlian :D 08:05:02 *novocastrian 08:05:33 Don't have a thick enough accent to be a geordie 08:06:03 Haha 08:06:26 Damn, I was wondering what was killing my battery life. Had some Monte Carlo Java nonsense running in the background 08:06:29 * NihilistDandy not amused 08:06:31 *is 08:08:04 There's a geordie comedian I see on QI occasionally that I find very funny, but I can never remember his name 08:08:14 Ross Noble? 08:08:34 That's the one 08:09:14 I'm mostly in it for the Stephen Fry goodness, but they get some good people on there :D 08:09:26 I watch it for Alan Davies 08:09:39 Also a winner 08:10:38 How about... an esolang based on QI! 08:12:06 I'm sure it's already been done and abstracted to some absurd level already :D 08:12:22 whats QI? 08:12:29 British panel show 08:12:41 is it IQ backwards? 08:12:48 It stands for Quite Interesting 08:12:57 Sort of a trivia show, but with vague points and barely any right answers 08:13:06 ah yes 08:13:17 "What language did the Romans speak?" 08:13:20 News items, too 08:13:23 *silence* 08:13:29 "...Dutch?" 08:13:42 "Name a poisonous snake." 08:13:44 You lose points for saying the obvious answer 08:13:47 "Piers Morgan" 08:14:02 "What was the great dissapoitment" 08:14:10 "Have you been talking to my husband?" 08:14:14 "last night" 08:14:16 hehehehe 08:14:41 Ross Noble had some surprisingly accurate answers about hedgehogs a few weeks ago 08:14:48 A few weeks ago? 08:14:58 Man, where was I a few weeks ago... 08:14:58 May have been more 08:15:17 I doubt that there is a QI esolang though. 08:15:24 I download it since I can't do the BBC video thing from here and they don't show it on BbCA 08:15:28 *BBCA 08:15:37 There's a very good reason for that 08:15:44 They use a lot of copyrighted stuff 08:15:48 True 08:15:50 Which is licensed only for the UK 08:15:51 although.. much to my surprise, a term i thought up "hashashins weed" has already been used 08:15:54 And New Zealand 08:16:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRkkVQ6OSE 08:16:34 Oh, good, they finally updated the HTML5 player on youtube 08:17:01 Pubenda is a great word 08:17:19 Might have to name our QI esolang that 08:17:45 How about BCL with Q and I instead of 1 and 0 08:17:54 Or Alan Davies and Stephen Fry 08:18:18 The Davies constant 08:19:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA8qT5PzSS4&feature=related 08:20:40 David Mitchell's brilliant, as well 08:22:23 Grover Cleveland was two presidents of the United States :D 08:23:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kndxsByVscA&feature=related 08:25:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDCwP2SnI4&feature=related 08:41:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aX26k5ZNzI&feature=related 08:41:41 Comedic timing at its finest 08:43:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:46:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:25:21 -!- azaq23 has joined. 09:25:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host). 09:25:26 -!- azaq23 has joined. 09:27:55 Back 09:39:44 Hello? 09:46:50 morning 09:47:11 My town's got a music festival this afternoon 09:47:15 i just did a full 14'er 09:47:38 14'er? 09:47:44 we had a music festival a few weekends ago 09:47:48 well you know a full night's sleep 09:47:54 Ah 09:48:14 I don't think i've ever been asleep that long 09:48:27 Had about two hours last night 09:48:42 But yeah, I remembered why I don't like it when I'm cleanshaven 09:49:34 I look like a freakin' elf 09:50:26 you make the awesomest palindromes, you don't need sex and you don't need sleep. you are a fucking superhuman :| 09:50:37 oh and you can transform into an elf 09:51:10 people think i'm 5-10 cm shorter than i actually am because of my crouching 09:51:20 but i'm not sure that's transforming into an elf 09:51:30 That's a dwarf 09:51:33 Or maybe a hobbit 09:51:38 Depends on your facial hair 09:51:39 santa's elves are drarves 09:51:50 Santa's elves are gnomes 09:52:42 but they have the property of dwarves which made you say dwarf in the first place 09:52:45 *dwarves 09:52:53 Except for facial hair 09:53:26 If anything, Santa's elves are Sami 09:53:37 well yeah but i have my own way of elving up and it uses a different breed of elf 09:54:47 ?pl i f x = i f $ f x 09:54:47 i = fix ((.) =<<) 09:55:00 ... 09:55:01 What? 09:55:06 Can you make Lambdabot call itself? 09:55:30 no know 09:55:36 @src lambdabot 09:55:36 Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another! 09:55:47 @src LambdaBot 09:55:47 Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. 09:56:04 @src foldl' 09:56:04 foldl' f a [] = a 09:56:05 foldl' f a (x:xs) = let a' = f a x in a' `seq` foldl' f a' xs 10:05:10 so did i tell you i met this canadian guy who thought stars are planets and was pretty sure scientology is the science of studying science 10:05:18 No 10:05:31 But one of my friends thought the capital of the US was in British Columbia 10:05:44 ...how? 10:05:59 Got mixed up with Distric of. 10:05:59 Washington BC 10:07:08 but anyway it was kinda fun, 21yo dude who had never been told the first thing about space (perhaps they teach something that's actually useful instead in canada, dunno what tho) 10:07:22 then again knowing the capital of anything is useless trivia, especially when it isn't the largest or most famous city in the country 10:07:23 Fighting polar bears? 10:07:31 hmm, true 10:07:33 And take in mind that some people just can't be taught. 10:08:01 (i.e. the capital of america is new york) 10:08:12 After we did the early USSR in History for about three months, some people in my class still had no idea who Lenin was 10:08:20 (and Australia's is Sydney) 10:08:38 he was studying accounting and i'm like isn't that stuff just adding up numbers? and he says nono there's so much more there's, let's see, managerial accounting, and then ummmm cost accounting, and well that's all i've had sofar. and i ask what those are and he's like 10:09:40 ...which i assumed meant "adding up numbers". 10:10:19 Sylvester McCoy is going to play Radagast the Brown in the Hobbit movie! 10:13:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0&feature=related fny sho 10:14:51 I'm going to quote you on my user page 10:15:51 go ahead, although it's HackEgo quotes i'm after 10:21:42 hehe :P 10:26:37 oklopol, your message got cut at "he's like" 10:29:36 cheater_: no it didn't, actually 10:29:44 sorry, i suppose that's a bit confusing of a thing. 10:32:00 he made a reaction of the kind that you would assume meant "adding up numbers" 10:32:17 no actually he said nothing 10:32:25 erm 10:32:37 well what olsner said but my cutting it off meant precisely what i said 10:33:35 pretty cool: https://markup.mozilla.org/en-US/#/mark/new 10:36:51 It's essentially a simpler version of DeviantArt Muro? 10:37:16 they won't let ie users in 10:37:29 What, DeviantArt? 10:38:31 On another not, Oerjan demonstrated how easy it is to program in NUmberwang 10:38:35 This is a problem 10:38:42 It should be hard to program in 10:41:13 no what cheater_ linked 10:41:37 ^*note 10:43:41 i preferred on another not 10:49:09 Bye 10:49:19 -!- Taneb has changed nick to TanebIsGone. 10:52:11 That's Numberwang 11:18:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:24:32 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRbj1Q4tXNo&feature=related these are just amazing 11:27:47 Casting them for the Mac ads was genius. 11:28:02 Webb plays the smug, pretentious git so well. 11:36:53 ^style 11:36:54 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 11:44:13 shit these are good 12:07:54 þÿÿÿRsåv…såv 12:08:38 Same to you 12:18:45 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 12:18:45 -!- itidus20 has quit (*.net *.split). 12:19:58 -!- itidus20 has joined. 12:19:58 -!- augur has joined. 12:24:47 -!- foocraft has quit (Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish!). 12:24:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:49:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 12:49:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 12:49:28 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 13:05:04 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:07:28 doesn't causation correlate to correlation? 13:07:49 yes, but that doesn't mean there's a causation 13:08:28 THEREFORE CAUSATION DOESN'T CAUSE CORRELATION 13:08:29 my god. 13:08:51 this should be published. This is world-breaking research. 13:09:05 i'm not following you, but i'll gladly coauthor it with you 13:09:36 speaking of which, i should get my euler number in august yay 13:09:42 I don't think you actually have to be right to get published in an academic journal. 13:10:12 I think you just need to have a lot to say and a lot of sources. 13:10:13 why so :o 13:10:26 i don't have a lot to say? 13:10:50 i wrote two articles last week 13:11:07 well, it's not strictly required that you be full of shit to publish something, of course. 13:11:16 but I think it happens. It's just a hunch, really 13:11:20 It helps 13:11:34 Read the last 6 preprints on arXiv 13:11:38 oh i misread you :D 13:11:43 I'll bet 3 of them are bullshit 13:11:58 i read " I don't think you actually have the right to get published in an academic journal." :D 13:12:05 4 if you only read the physics section 13:12:20 i'll gladly admit i'm full of shit but i certainly have a lot to say :D 13:12:51 oklopol: and lots of sources, no doubt. 13:13:50 i'm sure i do 13:19:00 -!- tswett has joined. 13:42:21 -!- TanebIsGone has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:43:26 taneb is gone is gone 13:52:59 Floodatkaa. 13:53:12 Flöödätkää. 13:53:42 Turhauttavinta. Käyttämisessä. Pitää. 13:53:54 okokokokokokokoko 13:53:55 okokokokoko 13:53:57 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 13:53:58 okokokokokoko 13:53:59 okokokoko 13:54:01 okokokokokokokokokokoko 13:54:02 okokokokokokokoko 13:54:03 okokokokoko 13:54:06 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 13:54:07 okokokoko 13:54:09 okokoko 13:54:11 okokokokokokokokokoko 13:54:16 kaikkein turhauttavinta. 13:54:56 Laumastastasta suomi. 13:55:10 Okokoko turhauttavinta. 13:56:11 i don't think a double elative is very meaningful 13:56:27 "from from a herd" 13:56:37 Is elative for when you're very happy. 13:56:51 yes, lauma = herd, laumasta = happy herd 13:56:52 Triple, isn't it? 13:57:00 whoops 13:57:04 sorry misread 13:57:08 been doing that a lot today 13:57:23 read laumastastansa 13:57:25 close enough 13:57:35 Raikuja! Raikuja koirut siviisetsa! 13:57:37 that is, from from his herd 13:58:45 Sölötölövölötölöstän. 13:59:03 Laumassa. Laumat. Laumoineen. 13:59:53 oklopol: say, didn't I plan to meet you somewhere in Finland some time in the year 2014? 13:59:57 I'm afraid I must reschedule. 14:00:05 why? 14:00:11 you coming early or dying of cancer? 14:01:47 Well, I've forgotten the time and place, for one. 14:02:15 if someone were to find that promise in the logs, would there be further problems 14:02:55 also what did you end up studying at the uni, i only recall your prechoice mumblings on the matter 14:03:19 Math. 14:03:49 cool so how many years now, 1? 14:04:47 and what have you learned 14:06:52 i don't know if you know this but i love math 14:10:38 -!- oklofok has joined. 14:11:28 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:11:34 correlation correlating with causation is correlated with correlation causes causation, and thus causes correlation to cause causation 14:11:40 er 14:11:47 correlation correlating with causation is correlated with correlation causing causation, and thus causes correlation to cause causation 14:13:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:13:08 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 14:13:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:15:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:18:40 just think about what you could do with a hundred million moneys 14:19:22 i mean you have to admit 14:19:25 that's a manyload of moneys. 14:21:44 yes it is almost too many manyloads, so many I cannot think of many more. 14:22:50 that is a hundred of a million. I don't even know what kind of math you would need to calculate one hundred millions. 14:23:16 more math than you can carry around in a purse that's for sure. 14:23:37 > just consider having eight sevens. 14:23:38 : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 14:23:47 what does that even mean? 14:23:54 no idea 14:23:57 fucking miraculous. 14:24:09 It means that your expression is so wrong it can't even work out where to start. 14:24:26 ^ 14:24:49 what if I have a pizza and a choice of 3 out of 12 toppings. 14:24:58 like, I don't think they've gotten enough math for that. 14:25:10 you mean you have a choice of 1 out of 4 toppings 14:25:37 What? no, that's uh... three less of those. Fuck how do you even describe that. 14:25:49 3/12 = 1/4 14:26:02 it's like having the thing that a hundred millions makes, but then reversing it. 14:26:06 what does that even mean. 14:26:22 I'm so confused. I think I'm going to go to sleep. 14:26:27 good night 14:26:36 * CakeProphet should have majored in the maths. 14:26:40 CakeProphet, you mean 000000001? 14:26:41 you should have. 14:26:54 everyone should major in maths, because maths is better 14:27:19 you know, better than. 14:27:58 er wait, is 12 choose 3 == 1 choose 4 14:28:05 I am pretty sure it is not. 14:28:12 obviously, you choose every fourth 14:28:12 It is not. 14:28:14 but do not feel like getting my computer to calculate it. 14:29:10 pascal's triangle would be so fucked.. 14:29:34 oh whoops 14:29:42 yeah 12 choose 3 != 1 choose 4 14:29:46 it's 4 choose 1 14:29:55 in any case, I didn't really make it entirely clear that that was the actual problem. 14:30:25 but yeah, math can't even do that shit. it's unpossible. 14:30:43 anyways, good night. 14:30:50 what can't math do? 14:30:52 math can do it 14:31:13 obviously you have never read the definition of unpossible. 14:31:29 STOP MAKING ME REPLY. yes, you are making me, with voodoo. 14:31:31 indeed i unhave read it 14:31:59 should go out but i can't find my unbrella 14:34:22 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ir3xv/we_know_the_universe_is_very_nearly_flat_does/ 14:34:39 "[I] have taken an advanced undergrad course in topology." 14:34:49 "I accept this assumption, but even with it I'm not seeing the connection between the universe's boundary and its geometry." 14:43:09 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:44:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:44:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 14:44:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:44:49 þÿÿÿRsåv…såv 14:56:21 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:02:49 3 choose 12 is equal to 1 choose 4. 15:05:49 Is it? 15:05:54 No. 15:05:59 Yes, it is. 15:06:13 I have no idea what you are talking about 15:06:27 They're equal. 15:06:28 I think you're trying to do division, but have chosen the wrong word 15:06:37 Nope. It's the "choose" operator. 15:06:37 tswett, it... really doesn't seem like it should be. 15:06:48 What language? 15:07:00 Taneb, maths. 15:07:02 3 choose 12 equals 1 choose 4 equals zero 15:07:22 x choose y is the number of subsets of size y of a set of cardinality x. And 3 choose 12 is equal to 1 choose 4. 15:07:28 12 choose 3 does not equal 4 choose 1 15:08:51 It's definitely different. 15:09:07 Sure, but 3 choose 12 is the same as 1 choose 4. 15:09:15 Oh, right. 15:09:17 And 7 choose 71278 15:09:25 Taneb, also zero. 15:09:29 Whenever the second is more than the first, it's 0 15:09:32 Just looked it up 15:09:38 But I always forget which way round it is. 15:09:59 Well, just remember the phrase. "From 3, choose 12." 15:11:04 I had never encountered that operaor before 15:11:44 Taneb, wait, you have a GCSE and stats and you'd never encountered the choice function? 15:11:55 Nope 15:12:00 O.o 15:12:38 All we seemed to learn about was the difference between primary and secondary research and how we could do market research 15:12:43 Taneb: quick, express (a + b)^n as a summation! 15:13:46 Now you're just making fun of the poor quality of my education 15:17:56 I have no idea what I'm even trying to do 15:29:51 Could you explain it? 15:30:33 Taneb, give a closed form for the nth term of (a + b)^n, basically. 15:32:53 no one's saying 12 choose 3 is equal to 4 choose 1 AS A NUMBER, but they are PHILOSOPHICALLY the same 15:33:09 Phantom_Hoover:... 15:33:55 Taneb, well, it should be the mth term, since the two ns aren't the same. 15:34:13 Or better still, the kth term. 15:34:26 yeah and when you're done, give us the third term of the set {1, 5, 4, 6, 2, 76, 8, 4, 2} 15:35:30 so GCSE means what exactly, i think i asked this recently 15:35:46 A relatively low level qualification 15:36:02 but you haven't done any math, cs or physics? 15:36:06 By which you mean the lowest-level qualification. 15:36:24 oklofok: Kind of like ylioppilaskirjoitukset but done after the yläaste-equivalent 15:36:30 oh okay 15:36:32 Done maths and physics, awaiting results 15:36:35 i bet i didn't know that operation at that point either 15:36:45 Although our qualifications in Scotland go insanely low; there are like 4 types of idiot exam. 15:37:08 actually i had taken a few high school courses in elementary school so i guess i did know it 15:37:34 but i don't recall choice having been taught there otherwise 15:38:25 Although nobody ever actually takes the lowest 3 to my knowledge. 15:39:22 ppl so stuppid rite? :DD 15:39:34 we... we something upper than that. 15:39:48 You something upper than that 15:39:51 *? 15:40:03 upper an idiot i'm way! :\ 15:40:20 so i tried borrowing people's cellphones 15:40:50 Wh... what? 15:41:03 idgi, in paris and other third world countries the streets are full of all sorts of crooks and everyone still treats you like you're a person; out there everyone assumed i was going to do something fishy 15:41:07 i asked like 20 ppl 15:41:10 two gave me their phones 15:41:26 one typed the number in himself, and looked a bit scared 15:41:37 (i'm pretty scary) 15:41:53 and the other one was a druggie so he was nice ofc 15:41:57 Maybe if you didn't go around wearing a stocking on your head all the time. 15:42:28 well i was driving around on my scooter/kickboard/whatever, which makes people look at you a bit weirdly as only kids use those 15:42:32 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37X4WAmwiJQ 15:43:17 Taneb, I was also referring to that picture of oklofok I've seen. 15:44:31 oh. that was a football though 15:45:17 no bank robber would wear something like that 15:45:52 I reckon that nowadays a bank robber would wear their underwear and never leave their house 15:46:42 well true 15:47:19 Oh dear god the weather 15:47:27 so umm were those real reactions? 15:47:29 wtf 15:47:44 I've lived in the UK for 14.5 years and I'm still not used to the weather 15:47:48 why would you assume someone's a robber before they have stated this 15:48:05 i hate people 15:48:06 Because they are prejudiced 15:48:17 Especially the Asians. 15:48:46 why be prejudiced about something that's not true 15:49:08 a robber wouldn't wear something like that because you can see their face 100% 15:49:12 That is the best thing to be prejudiced about 15:49:32 oklofok, I'm guessing it makes it harder to make it out on CCTV. 15:49:42 oh that's actually a good point 15:50:13 I've lived in the UK for 14.5 years and I'm still not used to the weather 15:50:32 Have I mentioned that my breath fogged up in mid-morning in May inside my house. 15:50:35 still, the guy with the stocking on his head did nothing wrong, bite your fucking tongue 15:50:46 horrible people 15:50:59 They're in Australia 15:51:09 They have to assume that everybody is trying to kill them 15:51:13 It's the safest way 15:53:17 Well, the rain is really heavy 15:53:24 i love the rain 15:53:27 <3 15:53:48 My front road's going to flood again 15:54:49 small price to pay 15:55:11 The majority of my towns sewage flows through a small pipe along my roud 15:56:01 *roud 15:56:03 *road 15:56:16 so? 15:56:32 When my road floods, it smells awful 15:56:34 we don't have floods here, so maybe i'm missing something 15:56:37 oh 15:59:28 Well, now one side of the road is dangerous to drive through 16:00:12 Both paths 16:00:29 That bus just left a freakin' wake 16:00:48 The majority of my towns sewage flows through a small pipe along my roud 16:00:58 well don't drive 16:01:00 Please don't tell me you live in Hexham. 16:01:06 How did you know 16:01:23 Seriously, you just worked out where I live 16:01:23 You... you do live in Hexham, don't you. 16:01:28 Yes 16:01:31 wat 16:01:31 he can't 16:01:33 This 16:01:34 No 16:01:35 that would be too cool 16:01:45 I do 16:01:55 no you don't 16:01:58 The rain's just stopped 16:02:01 I honestly do 16:02:10 how many people live in hexham? 16:02:17 Just short of 12000 16:02:35 then either you do not live in hexham or we know who brought you here 16:02:47 neither seems that unlikely 16:03:20 I seriously do live in Hexham 16:04:14 then you were brought here by your irl contacts 16:04:33 msg me a name? 16:04:42 it's not a secret, so no 16:04:44 And I wasn't 16:04:59 I got here from the wiki, which I got from Wikipedia 16:05:08 huh. well elliott lives in hexham as well 16:05:22 Mann? 16:05:26 Elliott Mann? 16:05:27 mann? 16:05:30 no 16:05:34 Taneb, Hird. 16:05:40 do you know him? 16:05:46 No, I do not 16:05:53 he's this kid who refused to meet me a few weeks ago 16:06:07 He lives in Hexham? 16:06:30 Age range? 16:06:51 12 iirc 16:07:02 or maybe he's 18 now 16:07:14 WE MAY NEVER KNOW 16:07:16 I know neither any 12 nor 18 year olds 16:07:27 Taneb, yes, this is because he is neither of these. 16:08:26 I can conlude he probably doesn't have a Facebook account 16:08:53 someone still uses facebook? 16:08:54 lol 16:09:28 I let my Facebook get out of hand. 16:09:37 -!- monqy has joined. 16:09:37 1789 friends 16:10:06 Man, what a crazy day 16:10:10 yep 16:10:26 I can prove that I live in Hexham! 16:10:37 Earlier today, I said I was going to a music fest in my town 16:11:05 http://www.visitnorthumberland.com/site/events/shows-and-festivals/selefest-2011-p573711#ProductList-/site/events/shows-and-festivals/selefest-2011-p573711 16:11:26 That's... not very good proof. 16:11:35 a guy with your palindrome talent could easily work it out we were going to ask you if you lived in hexham. 16:11:42 *-it 16:12:01 I had no idea that you were going to ask me if I lived in Hexham 16:12:27 But if you look at the date of that website, it's today! 16:12:46 how many festivals a year does hexham have? 16:12:57 As far as I know, 1! 16:13:23 But then there's that other time when the rollercoasters come 16:13:39 XD 16:13:42 And that other time when there's a historical redoey thingy on about the Hexham Protests 16:13:55 Reenactment 16:13:57 Riots 16:14:30 ""Hexham" was used in the Borders as a euphemism for "Hell"." 16:14:43 I've never heard that except on Wikipedia 16:14:52 Sure, but do you live in the Borders? 16:15:02 True 16:15:43 That is, I don't live in the Borders 16:15:49 Except by a really loose definition 16:15:57 Taneb didn't you say you have read the whole wp 16:16:05 No 16:16:12 I said I read Wikipedia often 16:16:17 well right 16:16:23 That includes my hometown 16:17:34 I've edited the Wikipedia page for my School! 16:17:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queen_Elizabeth_High_School,_Hexham&action=history 16:18:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Queen_Elizabeth_High_School,_Hexham&diff=prev&oldid=371171660 16:18:15 that proves nothing, you could've edited every school's wp page at that time. 16:18:30 Why the hell would I do that 16:18:45 the question is.. 16:18:49 why would you *not* do that? 16:18:52 yeah. 16:18:55 and also 16:19:03 you could've done that SO YOU COULD FAKE LIVING ANYWHERE YOU WANTED 16:19:14 what a silly question 16:19:15 except for finland 16:19:21 except for finland. 16:19:40 because i know all the other 4 finns 16:19:49 and they're all drunk 16:19:57 -!- foocraft has joined. 16:20:04 I have no need for alcohol 16:20:13 AHA!!! 16:20:19 THAT PROVES YOU DO NOT LIVE IN FINLAND 16:20:28 WE ARE HOT ON YOUR TRACK, MISTER 16:20:35 Taneb: ...can you fly? 16:20:42 Never tried 16:20:44 hm. 16:20:48 you prolly could :| 16:21:08 * Phantom_Hoover notes that Taneb's user page redirects to "High Middle Ages". 16:21:24 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ABCD does anyone understand this 16:21:43 21:39:06: I'm a Northumbrian <-- and you say that after i was joking the other they that you were coincidentally Elliott's next door neighboor 16:21:52 New theory: oerjan is actually a prophet. 16:22:03 also http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:ABCD_Programming_Language_Family 16:22:04 I was? 16:22:27 also the "revolver architect" deal on that guy's user page http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Billlam 16:22:55 I'm in the talk pagges for two of those 16:22:57 Taneb, well, you're practically his next-door neighbour, especially in internet terms. 16:23:19 My next door neighbours are Mr Snowdon and the Bradshaws! 16:23:27 None of whom are called Elliott 16:23:28 * oklofok repeats he has found his next-building neighbor not through this channel 16:23:33 I mean, based on the fact that he probably goes to the same school as you... 16:23:34 erh 16:23:38 * oklofok repeats he has found his next-building neighbor through this channel 16:24:39 Someone's just crossed the still flooded road barefoot 16:24:52 " http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ABCD does anyone understand this" <<< i can honestly say i do 16:25:06 please enlighten me 16:25:25 It's essentially deadfish with no square function, as well as input 16:26:08 monqy, it's basically a matter of "idiots exist". 16:26:24 :( 16:26:49 brb 16:32:54 OK so guys I am being dragged off to Ireland in two days and I need something to stave off the boredom for a week. 16:33:26 err drugs? 16:34:31 also the druggie probably only lent me his phone because he wanted to know where you can get drugs here in turku 16:34:35 oklofok, rather hard to obtain on such short notice. 16:34:54 eh? 16:35:00 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to EstablishmentLov. 16:35:07 -!- EstablishmentLov has changed nick to copumpkin. 16:35:27 walk outside and find a dealer? 16:36:19 oklofok, could take a while. 16:36:46 i told this german girl prostitution is illegal on every street in finland, and she's like "okay, so where do the prostitutes work then?" 16:36:57 i wish we were more like europe 16:37:14 ...you are in Europe. 16:37:33 but we're not like europe 16:38:12 when i say i wish i spoke japanese like a jap i don't mean i wish i spoke japanese like a jap who doesn't have a mouth because he ripped it off 16:38:58 Can't fault your logic. 16:39:40 mostly we just use the phrase "like europe" in here to refer to non-scandinavic europe (oh we also refer to finland as a part of scandinavia usually) 16:40:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:40:30 i mean we are essentially the same country as sweden except for the language 16:40:35 and the army 16:41:49 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:45:13 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:45:46 And the ducks. 17:01:30 okay this chasers thing is incredibly awesome as well 17:01:36 maybe i'm just really easy to impress today 17:01:55 IF I HAVE TOLD YOU YOU'RE AWESOME TODAY, SORRY, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT TRUE AND YOUR LIVES ARE SAD AS SHIT. 17:02:08 just in case 17:02:19 so i was thinking maybe i'll start smoking 17:02:25 like, now 17:02:29 wonder if i have a lighter 17:02:35 oklofok, have you got to their APEC stunt? 17:02:42 nope not yet 17:02:50 link surfing at random 17:08:58 i've actually always wanted to try handing out money on the street 17:16:48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GclCE0cLA-o best ending 17:17:18 "i'm sorry, i outrank you" "can i ask what's going on here?" "sorry, i'm afraid it's classified" "no problem" 17:17:44 -!- cheater_ has joined. 17:22:04 oklofok, that's not the one I was talking about, but I hadn't seen it. 17:22:52 actually when i linked it i had forgotten about your suggestion completely, just randomly linke, so lucky me, what's the real one? 17:24:51 The one with the motorcade. 17:27:21 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 17:27:56 what's SFA? 17:28:05 you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdnAaQ0n5-8 ? 17:48:39 i hadn't heard of this but that's like straight outta hustle 17:57:32 Based on the one episode of The Hustle I've seen, I agree. 18:00:01 -!- foocraft has quit (Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish!). 18:01:19 -!- foocraft has joined. 18:01:33 -!- cheater__ has joined. 18:02:37 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:03:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hcFuxVc_Q&feature=related xD 18:04:22 Hello 18:04:39 hello friend 18:05:59 Still not believing I live in Hexham 18:06:19 ? 18:06:36 i'm currently acting on the assumption that you will consistently claim to be from hexham 18:06:41 if that's what you mean 18:06:46 Yes 18:07:03 I cannot think of a way to prove that I am in Hexham 18:07:10 but i wouldn't say i believe it's a physical fact that you live there, although i currently highly suspect that to be the case 18:07:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:07:17 If you think of one, let me know 18:07:26 there are very easy ways to do that 18:07:39 Such as? 18:08:20 go to one of the things hexham has that is on the internet and put something of my choice there 18:08:32 say a shoe on top of the most famous building 18:08:42 I am not going on top of the Abbey 18:09:09 I will stand next to the abbey in site of the Hexham Courant Webcam for a while with a sign saying "I AM TANEB" 18:09:12 But not today 18:10:05 okay, that would be nice of you 18:10:19 And confusing to everyone around me 18:10:20 i would certainly believe you then 18:11:16 full belief is so liberating compared to even a slight doubt 18:11:28 because all you need to store is the fact, you can just forget the proof 18:11:42 It's like Turing-Completeness 18:12:08 I have no idea how to prove Lambda Calculus is Turing Complete 18:12:20 Quite simply? 18:12:29 Probably 18:12:37 The point is I don't need to 18:12:47 Because everyone who has an interest already knows 18:13:12 i have an interest, but i wouldn't say i actually know, i'm pretty sure i could do it tho 18:13:25 Just use the Brainfuck interpreter Ben Gould provided, then use the reduction from BF to P´´, then use Bohm's proof that P´´ is TC. 18:13:33 but yeah i get your point 18:13:59 (unlike ph, i'm going to guess) 18:14:10 nah he's smart 18:14:16 i couldn't find a lighter :( 18:14:19 gonna go buy one 18:14:46 Does anyone know an IRC client that works on a Kindle? 18:14:48 Just craft one out of flint and steel. 18:15:22 Taneb, it's not on Google, therefore it doesn't exist. 18:15:48 I got Mibbit working for Kindle 18:15:54 But Freenode blocks mibbit 18:16:09 Try Freenode's webchat? 18:16:41 are there any consensus for the bit-packing order of bit input/output operations on esolangs? 18:17:02 What, big-endian or little-endian? 18:17:08 No. 18:17:18 lifthrasiir, why would there be? 18:17:31 There's not even a consensus IRL 18:18:16 IRL here, of course, means in conventional programming 18:18:45 Of course not, consensus is stupid for things like that. 18:19:02 well, i didn't mean whether it'd be big or little endian, i meant whether the bit-packing order *is* fixed. 18:19:09 Consensus is important for stuff like EoF in BF, because they're all meant to be doing the same thing. 18:19:29 Is consensus second or fourth declension? 18:19:36 is there any esolang that may use little endian or big endian for bit packing from time to time? 18:20:35 Not as far as I'm aware 18:20:42 Taneb, 4th. 18:20:46 Okay 18:21:09 There's not even a consensus as to which order to list cases for Latin words! 18:21:29 What's with this Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Abl, Voc? 18:21:46 You put voc last? 18:21:50 Eew. 18:21:54 Wiktionary does 18:22:12 Wait, and it puts acc after gen and dat? 18:22:16 Yep 18:22:19 ... 18:22:30 Example: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sensus 18:23:45 I do it like Cambridge Latin Course does. 18:23:58 Nom, Voc, Acc, Gen, Dat, Abl 18:24:12 It doesn't come from sensus also Oxford Latin Course does it the same way. 18:24:33 Maybe it's them who's weird 18:25:21 Other than myself playing 123456 Chess on a chessboard, there have been two other games over computer I am not a player in either one of them. There has been Nicholas Wolff against Vitya Makov and je ju against Nicholas Wolff. Wolff won the first game and I think they will probably win the second game as well. 18:26:23 What? 18:26:51 It's best to just ignore him. 18:27:45 You know, I'm told over and over again to not release any personal details on the internet 18:27:56 But when you do, nobody believes you! 18:28:17 Then don't release any personal details on the internet. 18:28:39 They worked it out. 18:28:44 Some people ask me so hard that I lie. But, they are making up lies to try to get my information too. (It is on IRC) 18:29:41 I'm pretty sure you're not listening to anything I say except the first comment of 19:27 BST 18:30:37 Do you mean me? Also it is not my timezone 18:30:46 Yeah 18:30:53 Except it was the last of 19:26 18:30:55 I misread it 18:31:16 I am not always connected to IRC 18:31:27 It didn't say you had left 18:31:58 I still don't know what comment you refer to since that isn't my timezone 18:32:21 You know, I'm told over and over again to not release any personal details on the internet 18:33:17 " What's with this Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Abl, Voc?" <<< obviously acc comes before dat 18:33:31 also what Phantom_Hoover said 18:33:32 i watched this amazing video on yt.. "history of fps-games 1974-?" ..notice the performance of the first 3D shooters is unrecheached (and mabe finds its most darkest hour) for the next 15yrs 18:33:46 " What's with this Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Abl, Voc?" <<< obviously acc comes before dat 18:33:57 i watched this amazing video on yt.. "history of fps-games 1974-?" ..notice the performance of the first 3D shooters is unrecheached (and mabe finds its most darkest hour) for the next 15yrs 18:34:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aipGP5oAuWQ&feature=related 18:34:02 sry 18:34:08 Um, the One True Ordering is nom, voc, acc, gen, dat, abl. 18:34:54 " You know, I'm told over and over again to not release any personal details on the internet" <<< eh? have you heard of facebook, no one says that anymore, nowadays everyone says STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE AND PUT YOUR FACE ON FACEBOOK. 18:35:15 yay darkest hours are always the most thrilling 18:35:17 I never said I wasn't recieving conflitcting messages 18:35:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what oklofok has as his profile picture on Facebook. 18:36:27 so after years of wanting to start smoking, i just managed to smoke a cig! 18:36:36 Once I start a business I might release some information on internet, such as telephone 18:36:45 And also full name 18:37:34 oklofok: Today was the first day I could bear the smell of ciggarette smoke. 18:37:51 " Um, the One True Ordering is nom, voc, acc, gen, dat, abl." <<< well i dunno latin, just that in german it's nom acc dat and gen is last because it's not used that much 18:38:31 "* Phantom_Hoover wonders what oklofok has as his profile picture on Facebook." <<< i don't have a facebook account 18:38:46 Taneb: how come? 18:38:52 because it's coincidence day? 18:38:57 i've always loved the smell 18:38:59 Possibly 18:39:06 Or possibly because some of my friends smoke 18:39:09 but i'm not very good at doing things 18:39:18 i mean 18:39:29 in the sense that i usually don't really do anything. 18:40:04 at least it feels that way 18:40:44 and oh wow do i love the high cigs give you, way better than weed and alcohol 18:43:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecO6uWCEgec&NR=1 xD 18:44:19 What are the dimensions of the bars in POSTNET? 18:44:27 Lumistalka. 18:44:38 2 by 4 18:45:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:45:10 hi oerjan 18:45:17 g'day 18:45:20 Hey 18:46:30 hagb4rd, is your point that the first 3d shooters are more awesome than the ones which followed? 18:46:38 noo! ----### 18:46:42 this is batland 18:46:50 yea 18:46:56 what was the first 3d shooter? 18:47:02 i mean the first one that had 3d physics 18:47:02 * oerjan is worried about a proliferation of fake swatters 18:47:08 at least for about 10 -12 years 18:47:13 anyone have a time machine? 18:47:14 yea 18:47:21 it was moving 18:47:29 in bout 6fps 18:47:32 !! 18:47:35 oh wait i can actually get to the future myself 18:47:51 just sit back and wait :> 18:47:58 By sitting in a broken oven 18:47:59 no we just have an archive 18:48:00 on it! 18:48:40 so i'll just come back and report on the first 3d shooter when they make it. 18:48:42 OH WAIT 18:48:47 hagb4rd: I have become aware in my thoughts that software developers tend to take credit for improvements caused by hardware 18:49:01 the point is.. ih this guys were still livin, hell.. what would they out of the machines of today? ..maybe they'd turn them off 18:49:23 +put/pull 18:49:33 peek 18:49:37 &poke 18:49:58 hagb4rd: are you happy with 6fps? im a little confused where you actually stand on this 18:50:24 okay.. let there be ten, and yes.. look at the first games in 90s 18:50:54 and then back to this awesome atari game, what was it called? 18:50:56 dunno 18:51:09 i am amazed atari had a fps 18:51:32 a mean frames per second ;) 18:51:42 first person shoote 18:51:56 need new keyboard 18:52:21 this one smells like...beer 18:52:50 Can you make Lambdabot call itself? 18:52:57 you can chain commands somewhat 18:53:36 and i'm still waiting for you guys io implement this planet processing engine for my elite sequel 18:53:49 so keep your eyes on it 18:53:50 ;)= 18:53:51 oh speaking of oerjan, tswett: why did you never tell me what you've learned? :\ 18:54:17 @@ @run 3 + @read @run '5' : @show 9*2 18:54:18 121 18:54:49 wait what 18:54:56 @@ @read @run '5' : @show 9*2 18:54:57 59*2 18:55:01 oh 18:55:12 oklofok: oh, right. 18:55:13 @@ @run 3 + @read @run '5' : @show @run 9*2 18:55:15 8 18:55:17 I've learned... mathematics. 18:55:23 wtf 18:55:28 Specifically, things from analysis and algebra. 18:55:30 @@ @read @run '5' : @show @run 9*2 18:55:32 5 18 18:55:40 what have you learned about algebra? 18:55:44 what's an algebra? 18:55:49 hm that's not what i was going for 18:55:56 oerjan script is busy 18:55:58 I haven't learned what an algebra is. 18:56:13 you have learned no definitions for the term "algebra"? 18:56:19 @@ @run 3 + (@read (@run '5' : (@show (@run 9*2)))) 18:56:21 8 18:56:27 wat 18:56:34 Well, I learned what an algebra for a monad is. But not in class. 18:56:36 we wish we could have him that far, but ..ya know always busy 18:56:37 @@ @show @run 9*2 18:56:38 " 18\n" 18:56:59 hm 18:57:01 i still don't really know what monads are in math 18:57:18 pesky spaces 18:57:23 i'm not really smart enough for category theory 18:57:24 They're tribes who move from place to place 18:57:31 Oh, they're just this thing equipped with that thing such that yonder thing commutes. 18:57:50 oh i see 18:57:53 Anyway, I learned that at GVSU, "ring" means "pseudoring". 18:58:03 modands is used to impress human resources @ 1st case 18:58:20 are you familiar with the idea of having a set S and a set of operations with type S^n -> S for various n? 18:58:27 sophisticated stuff 18:58:37 that's one of the definitions for an algebra 18:59:11 but it can mean all kinds of other stuff as well 18:59:19 what's your favorite theorem in algebra? 18:59:24 That sounds like it's almost the definition of an algebraic structure. 18:59:41 or subtheory that you enjoy but can't quite reduce into one main theorem 18:59:48 tswett: yeah those are called algebras 19:00:27 Anyway, I don't really have a favorite theorem in algebra. 19:00:42 but an algebra is also when you have a vector space but you can multiply vectors afaiu 19:00:46 my favorite theorem is the various compactness theorem 19:00:55 there are no structires out there but the ones we might have tried to engrave in stone! 19:00:55 How about... the matrix theorem. 19:00:58 I like the axiom of choice 19:01:07 I don't know of any theorem called "the matrix theorem", but I would probably like it. 19:01:27 I like the axiom of constructibility. It answers a lot of questions. 19:01:41 i guess my favorite algebra stuff is in semigroup theory, idempotents and all that shit 19:01:42 "Any sci-fi movie with Keanu Reaves made post-2000 sucks" 19:01:51 The Matrix Theorem 19:01:58 especially inverse semigroups 19:02:08 lol 19:02:20 You know, I like free objects. 19:02:40 is the axiom of constructability "that object of yours? yeah it exists all right." 19:02:49 oklofok: I've heard square matrices of a given dimension referred to as 'linear algebras' with reference to their properties as a vector space plus the multiplication operation (or, similarly, linear maps on a given vector space, being themselves vectors in a different space, form a linear algebra with composition) 19:02:59 oklofok: nah, it says that every set is constructible. 19:03:43 I like the interesting number theorem 19:03:53 That's interesting 19:03:58 Theorem: every number is interesting 19:04:00 coppro: well i dunno what the consensus is on these terms, i don't think there really is one, but that would certainly make sense, and is what i'm referring to. 19:04:13 I disagree with the interesting number theorem. I think the smallest uninteresting number is 217. 19:04:34 what's the matrix theorem? can't find it 19:04:40 Proof: Consider the set of non-interesting numbers. If it is non-empty, pick the least element under some ordering. 19:04:49 tswett: That's a centred hexagon number 19:05:02 Taneb: so? I don't know what those are. 19:05:09 This element is the least non-interesting number under that ordering, which is interesting 19:05:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centered_hexagonal_number 19:05:23 oklofok: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+matrix+theorem%22 19:05:24 Thus we have a contradiction, and the set of non-interesting numbers must be empty 19:05:26 It's one of those. 19:06:00 Taneb: well, that's a pretty boring property. 19:06:06 Recreation mathematics: more addictive and worse for your health than cocaine 19:06:16 what's your favorite theorem in algebra? <-- i like that subdirect product of subdirectly irreducible algebras theorem 19:06:56 that's pretty damn neat alright 19:07:03 hagb4rd: I am glad you showed these fps videos. Anyway I think that the fps genre is losing creativity. 19:07:12 the theorem being that gives you all algebras 19:07:15 man, next term is going to be interesting 19:07:15 of a certain type 19:07:29 I'm going to have a linear algebra class that I actually attend 19:07:32 last term's class sucked 19:08:16 i had to learn linear algebra before taking the course on it because we used a lot of the theory for finite fields in coding theory 19:08:17 oklofok: i once used it to prove that kripke models work for intuitionistic logic via heyting algebras 19:08:35 that sounds cool 19:08:41 The seven Huzita-Hatori axioms 19:08:43 you talked about doing some stuff with heyting algebras but i still don't really get what heyting algebras re so 19:08:45 *are so 19:08:48 nor kripke models 19:08:54 and i'm still waiting for you guys io implement this planet processing engine for my elite sequel 19:09:03 Oh jesus are you trying to make an Elite sequel. 19:09:08 oklofok: basically heyting algebras are to intuitionistic logic what boolean algebras are to boolean logic 19:09:17 Why bother? Just make Oolite plugins 19:09:27 oh 19:09:36 I disagree with the interesting number theorem. I think the smallest uninteresting number is 217. 19:09:45 i can't actually see what that means but i'll memorize that factoid for now! :P 19:10:27 Actually, it's 11630. 19:10:54 I think the most interesting number is 12 19:11:06 tswett: i don't think there are any relevant hits on that google page 19:11:53 Why bother? Just make Oolite plugins 19:12:03 You've clearly never looked into the way OXPs work. 19:12:10 They're infuriatingly limited. 19:12:14 oerjan: i only know about heyting algebras from burris and sankappanavar's "a fun little course in universal algebra" and it was just in a list of examples, dunno if there'd've been theory on them later on 19:12:28 they have a lot of stuff on boolean algebras, should prolly read that at some point 19:12:38 oklofok: basically T is a theorem of intuitionistic logic iff T = 1 is a valid equation for heyting algebras, which is exactly the same as for boolean logic/algebras 19:13:02 oh! 19:13:08 that's awesome 19:13:30 What ways more, a pound of gold or a pound of feathers? 19:13:46 Taneb: a pound of feathers 19:13:53 *weighs 19:14:04 Can you explain why? 19:14:08 yes 19:14:13 Good 19:14:18 but then what's intuitionistic logic here, (a -> b -> c) -> ((a -> b) -> (a -> c)) and (a -> (b -> a))? 19:14:44 Taneb, it depends. 19:14:45 oklofok: well those would be theorems yes 19:14:57 but are those the axioms 19:15:04 erm 19:15:14 (a -> (b -> c)) -> ((a -> b) -> (a -> c)) and (a -> (b -> a))? 19:15:35 oklofok: in intuitionistic logic you include more than ->, because the operators are much more independent of each other than in boolean logic 19:15:42 Gold is weighed in Troy pounds and feathers in avoirdupois 19:15:54 oh 19:15:59 so and, or, not as well 19:16:12 avoirdupois is 12.53% heavier than troy 19:16:13 Why bother? Just make Oolite plugins <-- will do, at least for the less math-dependent parts.. still enought to do.. find nice ways to let my spaceilots having a good time interacting with its vivid world.. how bout a lambda bot in the boardcomuter? :D 19:16:25 well non-intuitionistic (you said boolean, does that mean classical?) logic has not as well 19:16:37 oklofok: of course you can probably find axioms for the -> fragment like with boolean logic 19:16:40 Taneb, not to mention the fact that it depends if you're talking about pound mass or pound weight. 19:16:49 oklofok: yeah 19:17:04 Assuming their in the same gravity, does that make a difference? 19:17:05 ah it's metamath 19:17:15 yeah metamath uses those two as the intuitionistic axioms 19:17:26 and then there's umm (not a -> not b) -> (b -> a) 19:17:44 Taneb, ah, but you don't explicitly state that assumption. 19:18:06 Where else are you gonna find both feathers and gold? 19:18:12 for classical 19:18:25 but this doesn't fit on gravity 19:18:56 Taneb, gold is pretty common in space, you know. 19:19:05 But feathers aren't 19:19:19 hag: I had some ideas about planets in 2d. 19:19:38 yea ok.. 19:19:44 oklofok: actually one simplification is possible: also in intuitionistic logic not a = (a -> false) 19:19:50 like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8_-78G8D_I&NR=1 19:19:54 looks nice! 19:19:56 The first idea I had is that if you walk far enough to the left or right in 2d you can come up on the other side 19:20:12 itidus20, ... 19:20:14 Um. 19:20:14 we had 2d planets in 85 19:20:17 That 19:20:25 That is not even remotely a new idea. 19:20:37 10 years later we had videos and spites of them (like in wing commander) 19:20:51 itidus20: you mean you came up with the idea of somehow making R^2 into a torus? 19:21:00 oklofok, he's a genius, I tell you! 19:21:01 or do you just mean the torus? 19:21:08 but no matter how long you wre riding ..you didnt get there 19:21:11 :'( 19:21:20 Gonna get some eats now 19:21:28 -!- Taneb has changed nick to TanebIsEating. 19:21:31 hagb4rd, suggest you look at Infinity: The Quest for Earth and despair. 19:21:33 i am happy to admit i am full of crap and can laugh at myself about it 19:21:37 joining the left and right sides can be done like that, or you can add a point at infinity whose open balls are the complements of closed balls around the origin 19:21:46 k.. thx hoover 19:21:51 by "like that" i mean the torus 19:21:51 hehehe, balls. 19:22:19 oklofok: when I was thinking about it what I really wanted to achieve is to do it without a sense of cheating the player 19:23:09 let's forget the player for now and discuss this in the context of topology okay 19:23:45 R^2 is already over my head, but I can still carry on 19:24:45 well in that case, a way to do it without cheating the player is the torus 19:24:49 are you familiar with it 19:24:58 i have wiki at my side 19:25:05 oh don't look at it 19:25:15 torus = take a finite square and glue the ends together. this is done in many 2d games. 19:25:36 in comet busters, the comets would come out the other side when they went over the border for instance 19:25:52 but so this wasn't entirely enough for me. there was more. i wanted to allow the player to "dig through the planet" 19:25:54 but i suppose you want something fancier than that 19:25:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:26:10 can you specify? 19:26:13 oklofok, 'comet busters'? 19:26:21 Is that what you called Asteroids in Finland? 19:26:29 Phantom_Hoover: a game way older than you, i just assume it's clear what the game is about 19:26:30 apparently it is 19:26:33 humm i will make a quick paint pic 19:26:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s4G1J9Hiwk&feature=related 19:26:40 Phantom_Hoover: i haven't played asteroids, so i dunno if they had a torus 19:26:49 this looks almost nice (planet renedering 19:26:49 * oerjan wonders how many 2d games do klein bottle gluing instead 19:27:05 comet busters came with my windows 3.11 19:27:47 hagb4rd, seriously, just look at the tech demos for Infinity. 19:27:49 * Sgeo remembbers some game on his computer called... Tempest, I think 19:28:02 k will do next : 19:28:04 :D 19:28:08 Sgeo, sometimes I think you do nothing *but* remembering games on your computer. 19:28:51 Sometimes I play games that will someday eventually just be games I remember playing on my computer. 19:28:54 See: Minecraft 19:29:06 now combine that with CP symmetry and you can have some interesting matter/antimatter effects... 19:29:24 oerjan, :D 19:29:31 so say moving left = moving down the klein tube, and up = around it. then the gluing is, you take a square and if you go up you appear in the same column on the bottom, but going left, you appear on the right, mirrored over the middle 19:29:35 -!- TanebIsEating has changed nick to Taneb. 19:29:37 Back 19:29:43 We guessed. 19:29:45 CP? 19:29:51 oklofok, charge-parity. 19:29:57 Dammit 19:30:01 http://oi51.tinypic.com/nl4u1v.jpg 19:30:12 Basically, the laws of physics stay the same if you turn matter into antimatter and swap the parity. 19:30:12 Just typed "Password" instead of my password 19:30:19 oklofok: means the symmetry where mirroring turns matter into antimatter 19:30:36 oh cool 19:30:44 it's not exactly preserved, but _most_ reaction obey it 19:30:45 in this pic you can sort of see the idea of "digging" through but the first problem arises. it looks very odd if the player does not turn his head around as he falls 19:30:52 *reactions 19:31:36 so i had this idea that the center of the planet could be another torus , to borrow your word 19:31:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:32:06 no wait, maybe that wasn't the idea 19:32:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:32:22 (the CPT symmetry where you reverse time as well is still not known to be violated, and the math of quantum mechanics + relativity is supposedly such that it would be very strange if it was) 19:32:34 i don't know the proof myself 19:32:34 anyway.. i thought.. when you reach the center of the planet while falling through, you should reach a dark screen where your path follows a U shape 19:32:53 and you start falling upwards without actually turning upside down 19:34:03 itidus20, suggest you read http://everything2.com/title/Using+Asteroids+to+explain+the+topological+classification+of+2-manifolds 19:34:22 ok 19:34:54 -!- shachaf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:34:58 -!- shachaf has joined. 19:37:32 (still reading the article, even while I type this) my more general theorum is that in practice the earth looks flat. It never actually looks like a sphere to anyone standing on it. So it should never have to look round in a video game. 19:38:03 looks like a good enough article 19:38:21 itidus20: what about on mountains near the ocean? 19:38:27 itidus20, what if someon finds a way to lift off into seep space in the game? 19:38:43 *deep 19:38:54 ya ur rite 19:39:01 but.. 19:39:04 itidus20: you want a surface like that of earth's, but infinitely deep? 19:39:10 maybe its possible to do both 19:39:49 well first I imagined a giant circle. and I thought, how big does the circle have to be so that it looks flat 19:40:14 itidus20, it wouldn't be an absolute size, but a size relative to the observer 19:40:27 you could have a 3-dimensional ball and remove its middle, then have coordinates shrink as you go down to make it appear infinitely deep 19:40:31 erm 19:40:33 (still reading the article, even while I type this) my more general theorum is that in practice the earth looks flat. It never actually looks like a sphere to anyone standing on it. So it should never have to look round in a video game. 19:40:37 remove its center point i mean 19:40:37 Toruses can be flat. 19:41:01 cool thing about such a world: the earth would be the center of the universe 19:41:07 Aren't they then called annuli 19:41:11 annui 19:41:15 ? 19:41:29 erm 19:41:32 annulus 19:41:33 right 19:41:34 :DS 19:41:54 Aren't they then called annuli 19:42:05 oklofok, well i decided that as you reach the center you reach a black background and your sprite follows a U path and when it goes up again it is falling upwards to some other point. so i guess that is infinite depth. 19:42:19 Taneb: no, that's a ring shape and is not topologically a torus at all 19:42:32 itidus20: i think it's better to prevent reaching the middle altogether 19:42:45 just have the distance to the center be infinite 19:42:47 Taneb, it's a different kind of 'flat'. 19:42:53 ooooh 19:43:05 a flat torus would not be possible to embed in usual space, but it would _locally_ look like an ordinary flat surface 19:43:23 So, two annuli ontop of eachother? 19:43:31 NO 19:43:33 I don't think I really understand this, do I? 19:43:36 Taneb, well, the Asteroids screen is a good example. 19:43:42 It's topologically a torus, but it's flat. 19:43:44 Oh, you mean like a net 19:43:46 Taneb: it's a shape which cannot exist in the real universe 19:44:00 I am full of crap. I am a whole magnitude below mathematically. ^_^ 19:44:11 But I think up things from left field. 19:44:19 but whose existence poses no actual mathematical contradiction 19:44:22 if you take the closures of two annuli, and glue together the inner and outer circles, don't you get the torus? 19:44:46 oklofok, remind me what closure is set-theoretically. 19:44:58 Phantom_Hoover: take all points you can find arbitrarily good approximations for 19:45:15 that is, if U is a subset of a topological space, its closure is the set of such points 19:45:23 so for the annulus, you'll just add the circles around it 19:45:39 So I was trying to squiash all this into a tile based side scroller (as an idea) which cannot rotate. 19:45:41 (according to wp it's the set of points more than r, but less than R away from 0) 19:46:12 Taneb: imagine a square where the sides are glued to each other, but not by actually bending the square, instead by making the sides be teleportation portals... 19:46:17 (so you'd add points exactly r or R away from 0, and nothing else, as is easy to check if you know how distance is measured in R^2 (pythagorean theorem being the definition)) 19:46:17 that's a flat torus. 19:46:56 Okay 19:47:00 I understand that 19:47:26 yay 19:47:34 I think a flat sphere would be trickier 19:47:50 Phantom_Hoover: did that make sense? 19:47:55 if you take the closures of two annuli, and glue together the inner and outer circles, don't you get the torus? 19:48:09 I think you'd get a torus if you just glued the inner and outer circles. 19:48:22 Phantom_Hoover: what are the inner and outer circles of the annulus? 19:48:39 uh oh al lot for me to read on later, but not to miss actual topcic: the more you get to the sphere the finer is the net.. then comes the transformations.. first of all ther is an irregular noise trasforming the vertexes into rocky landscapes 19:48:41 An annulus is the region between two cocentric circles 19:48:46 for any point on the annulus, you'll find a point even further away from 0 19:48:51 oklofok, how can you ask me definitional questions when you used the same terms? 19:49:12 oklofok, um, surely it's closed? 19:49:13 there must be a few more layers of transformations. but! : 19:49:21 Phantom_Hoover: well "outer and inner circle" makes sense after taking the closure 19:49:29 inner circle = points at distance r 19:49:33 outer = points at distance R 19:49:34 Taneb: yes, that is impossible. it's to do with the plane not being a cover of the sphere - you cannot wrap a plane around a sphere without some exceptional points 19:49:44 Phantom_Hoover: well "outer and inner circle" makes sense after taking the closure 19:49:53 after n transformation the landsape in a specific place always looked the same.. we thank you braben & bell 19:49:53 But... why do you need the closure in the first place? 19:49:54 :> 19:50:07 Phantom_Hoover: because otherwise i don't know what those terms mean 19:50:16 Is it the open circle with radius R less the closed circle with radius r? 19:50:18 ok i guess theres room for compromise 19:50:20 because the points at distance r and R do not belong to the annulus 19:50:31 oklofok, oh, right. 19:50:51 Yes, looking at WP, you're right. 19:51:03 closure was just a technical term because i wanted to be mathematically precise because that gives me a hard-on. 19:51:10 So wait, why did you need two annuli? 19:51:15 so what do you do.. make the character change size? :D :D 19:51:24 well because otherwise it's not topologically equivalent to the torus :) 19:51:28 well 19:51:39 yeah you could just glue together the inner and outer circles, yeah 19:51:41 but 19:51:48 But? 19:51:48 Then it's creased 19:51:49 we can let it compute pi 19:51:50 i was responding to 19:51:51 :P 19:51:53 perhaps as he falls deeper he scales up 19:52:01 I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be creased 19:52:07 " So, two annuli ontop of eachother?" " NO" 19:52:19 i was saying "or perhaps yes?" 19:52:19 oklofok, ah. 19:52:31 like a map projection, when a man goes to iceland 19:52:36 his body probably grows larger 19:52:56 itidus20, what 19:53:08 yea any points run togeter in x the focus 19:53:12 yeah. greenland/iceland is gigantic on most map projections 19:53:25 I used to think Antarctica was HUGE 19:53:29 " perhaps as he falls deeper he scales up" well more like gets smaller 19:53:31 Taneb, it... is. 19:53:34 Now I know, it is, but not as much as I thought it was 19:53:46 i guess that might depend on your point of view maybe 19:53:51 phantom, it has occured to me that the missing link could be that the character could actually change size to make it all work 19:54:04 thanks to listening to this conversation 19:54:04 Of course! 19:54:12 It all makes sense now! 19:54:17 ease up guys 19:54:18 oklofok: but gluing two annuli would give exceptional points at the crease, which doesn't count to me as really flat 19:54:40 plenty space left to log this all :) 19:54:49 So, a quadrilateral with opposite sides of equal length is the way to go? 19:54:57 oh okay i thought you were just talking topology 19:55:00 ok hagb4rd: like suppose uh.. Zelda.. was played on a typical map projection. 19:55:16 but it gives me an even weirder idea: do like i said previously and glue the outer an inner edge of an annulus with teleportation portals, but _which expand or shrink you as appropriately_ 19:55:19 now when he is standing on iceland his body will be stretched :D 19:55:22 *and inner 19:55:24 Why is Canada Post barcode strange? 19:55:38 oerjan, huh? 19:56:15 Phantom_Hoover: the inner circle is smaller than the outer, so if they are to be glued identically you have to change scale while crossing them... 19:56:17 itidus20: i was thinking maybe you could have a metric such that on every level of depth inside earth, you have a surface with the same circumference as earth, but you have infinitely many concentric balls "on top" of each other 19:56:23 oerjan, well duh. 19:57:08 oklofok, i really did actually commit some of this to paper months ago.. but i am clueless on topology 19:57:08 this is of course going to get ugly if anything manages to cross it outwards enough times... 19:57:21 yea but it's alle processed in realtime dude.. not just stated or persistant 19:57:24 so now it comes to life 19:57:37 oerjan, oh, so you only scale when crossing the border. 19:57:54 easy to imagine this for a 2d world, just take a cylinder that's infinitely tall, digging makes you go down, walking forward makes you go around it 19:58:06 So in other words it's identical to Asteroids if things scale linearly when they move down. 19:58:30 Is this still the Elite sequel? 19:58:42 oklofok: well the deeper paradox of falling through earth is that your up vector has to change at some point 19:58:44 Taneb, god only knows. 19:58:56 Phantom_Hoover: oh i see itidus20 was already bringing up similar ideas. btw this reminds me of a valerian comic... 19:59:04 itidus20: unless you just fall infinitely? 19:59:15 so I decided let him fall in U shape 19:59:24 I'm pretty sure there's some groundbreaking pseudogeometry mathematician who would kill to see this log 19:59:26 are you talking about affine transformation to reduce z axis,? 20:00:12 hagb4rd, dunno, I just mean that distance scales linearly when you move up or down, but is preserved when you move over the edge. 20:00:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_transformation 20:00:36 because if i didnt say let him fall in a U shape then either the map flips upside down or the character flips upside down and it would look awkward 20:00:55 something would have to flip 20:01:09 i also realize that you couldn't actually fall through.. gravity would pin you in the center 20:01:36 Unless you have momentum 20:01:42 e.g., from gravity 20:01:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Across_the_Pathways_of_Space#Funny_Specimens_.28Droles_de_Specimens.29 20:01:57 " I'm pretty sure there's some groundbreaking pseudogeometry mathematician who would kill to see this log" <<< pseudogeometry would be a great name for topology 20:01:57 the idea of falling through is really just to ensure that the planet is real 20:02:37 anyone who quotes that evil man behind general semantics who says the map is not the territory is to be slain >:) 20:03:08 i also realize that you couldn't actually fall through.. gravity would pin you in the center 20:03:10 Um, no. 20:03:12 dont you remember how hard it was to brake soon eough to make a landing? autopilot noobs :p 20:03:18 Learn you some shell theorem. 20:03:26 Unless you had some sort of thrusters (as you are in a spaceship, I'd assume you would), you'd end up falling down then gliding up the other side 20:03:39 In a distanse that approaches zero 20:03:40 otherways you had to go 1 more turn around the sun 20:03:47 Is asymptote the word? 20:04:27 phantom, so uhh.. i don't think any player has any actual reason to dig in a planet. but i think that the idea forces the game to cope with that possibility 20:04:36 if you do something asymptotically, then for any definition of almost doing it, you will eventually be almost doing it. 20:04:52 itidus20, the gravity at a planet's core is 0. 20:05:06 ahh 20:05:18 It averages out to that 20:05:28 does it decrease as you approach the center? 20:05:32 its not 0 20:05:39 I think so 20:05:40 Taneb, no, it's exactly 0. 20:05:45 itidus20, yes. 20:05:59 your impulse is zero 20:06:10 itidus20: basically for a perfectly spherical body, the gravity at a point inside is given by only the part of the body that is further inside from you 20:06:12 not the gravity 20:06:16 I mean, if you just check one side, it'd be 7 or whatever. But because you're being pulled equally in all directions, it's effectively zero 20:06:24 hagb4rd, there is no gravitational force acting on you at the centre of a planet. 20:06:28 Full stop. 20:06:40 Taneb, that's why, yes. 20:06:49 on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other 20:06:51 Unless there were significant variance in density throughout the planet 20:06:52 gravity is acting on me even if'd be shit out of the universe d 20:07:01 its physics 20:07:16 hagb4rd: we are talking total sum of forces here 20:07:17 not your proffession 20:07:19 Which makes it really hard to compute 20:07:21 yea 20:07:25 the sum is 0 20:07:26 " on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other" <<< can i steal this idea and try to do something cool with it next week? 20:07:27 correct! 20:07:40 i mean math stuff 20:07:41 As well as the N-body problem 20:07:50 Taneb, the centre of mass always has 0 gravity. 20:07:50 at least, in this encapsuled sim 20:08:08 all of my ideas are free to do whatever you like with as long as i get to use them myself 20:08:14 lol 20:08:25 But the geometrical centre not necessarily, Phantom_Hoover 20:08:38 Which would make the centre of mass elsewhere 20:08:40 Taneb, indeed, but a planet will always have them almost exactly the same. 20:08:43 as in, i don't want to get cut off from my own ideas 20:08:44 i like the idea of gravity for a ca 20:09:01 oklofok, don't you remember when elliott tried that? 20:09:04 Unless the player starts moving dirt from one side of the planet to the other 20:09:17 Phantom_Hoover: i doubt he tried it in the way i'm thinking 20:09:25 so a tetris piece would have a mass of 4 20:09:29 i'm thinking an actual ca that enforces a gravity 20:09:45 so that two of 1 20:09:47 argh 20:09:49 oklofok, elliott was trying to get relativity to work. 20:09:53 So no, he didn't. 20:10:00 so that two clusters of 1's would attract 20:10:06 but if 2 tetris pieces bumped together, they would become one object with a mass of 8 20:10:11 oklofok, you could have gravitational field cells. 20:10:20 Taneb: the shell theorem only works if the planet consists of perfectly spherical shells, naturally 20:10:22 yeah i was thinking some kind of gravitons 20:10:38 if think now you are ready to turn off autopilot and totally get lost behind beteigeuze c 20:10:55 1's need to be preserved in number, and 0's should be a quiescent state, other states can do whatever they like 20:10:57 *perfectly uniform spherical 20:10:59 *0 20:11:01 for me, diagonal connections in CA's (i love the acronyms you guy use so casually) is good enough to share mass 20:11:16 Taneb: the shell theorem only works if the planet consists of perfectly spherical shells, naturally 20:11:29 Not sure about that... 20:11:54 Phantom_Hoover: well those are the ones that integrate to give 0 gravity inside 20:12:09 itidus20: as i love telling people, i get payed to play with ca all day so acronymizing it gets pretty casual 20:12:11 we can reduce complexity to make it fit on a single floppy!!! 20:12:17 unbelievble 20:12:21 hrhr 20:12:43 Phantom_Hoover: i don't know whether those are the _only_ surfaces giving 0 gravity everywhere inside though 20:12:44 oklofok: ok heres another idea i had (i was on a roll that day) 20:12:55 oerjan, Gauss' law for gravity comes to mind. 20:13:12 a chess game CA where the piece type is determined by the pieces around it 20:13:32 Icehouse Chess? 20:13:46 unlike other things this one won't let me stop and wonder 20:13:48 No wait, that's different 20:14:00 well it would be just a CA... but the pieces would exist as uhh 20:14:01 A CA's a cellular automoton, right? 20:14:03 itidus20: huh? 20:14:07 Taneb: yeah 20:14:13 the pieces would be implied by the rules of the CA I guess.. 20:14:41 so say you had a cell on its own.. that could be a pawn 20:14:47 a continuous shift-commuting self-map of S^Z where S is a finite set and Z are the integers. Z can also be Z^n for some n, for instance for gravity 2 is a natural choice 20:14:47 as an example 20:15:13 itidus20: chess pieces are not really mathematically interesting 20:15:19 i actually drew up some ideas of possible rules for which pieces are which 20:15:24 how do they move? 20:15:56 a lonely queen on the plane wouldn't know what to do! 20:16:05 oh.. well.. ok.. so you start with a regular game of life 20:16:09 also how far can a queen move? 20:16:12 and.. in between turns 20:16:16 turns? 20:16:25 generations? 20:16:28 oaky 20:16:29 oklofok.. the problem you have IS a real problem.. and youreflect it that nice. no'ones sure its gonna ex- or implode 20:16:31 brb 20:16:36 and what happens next! 20:16:55 hagb4rd: can you clarify a bit? 20:16:56 ok lets say its not quite game of life.. lets say you have 2 teams .. so trinary state 20:17:01 no 20:17:08 because its chess 20:17:21 or uhh 20:17:24 uhhhmmm 20:17:30 Phantom_Hoover: yes wikipedia's shell theorem article proves it from gauss' law. but the spherical symmetry is still essential to get 0 at every point rather than just as the total integral 20:17:34 i never really thought about it that way 20:17:41 oerjan, hmm, yes. 20:17:59 two teams? a CA that has two players is still just a CA, since they are deterministic. are we talking tilings maybe? that is, nondeterministic CA 20:18:19 well.. you would have a dead cell, a black cell, and a white cell 20:18:49 oaky 20:19:03 istnt it an approximation at least good enough to to wonder what keeps bananas growing with this specific irregular way 20:19:11 not to 20:19:19 i certainly like the idea of alternation for tilings 20:19:20 so at the end of a generation the player can select 1 cell.. whose type is determined by the cells around it 20:19:35 and move it 20:19:52 (in the sense of an alternating turing machine) 20:20:01 and in all likelihood it is now a new kind of piece having moved 20:20:24 and lets say you can capture an enemy cell by moving onto it 20:20:40 okay, well that's a particular game that's kind of weird 20:20:43 dunno what to ask about it 20:20:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ku5G4ovnUU 20:20:49 i try 20:20:51 hehe 20:20:59 and again, how does a queen move? 20:21:02 can you go arbitrarily far 20:21:32 i was discussing that very question in here last night about how far can a chesspiece move 20:21:34 On a pseudogeometrical torus? 20:21:36 if you can, then the set of valid games might not be closed 20:21:46 whatever that means ;) 20:22:03 I think in this context finite would do better 20:22:06 valid drawings of playings i mean 20:22:10 ok finite ca 20:22:21 The Queen That Went Too Far 20:22:43 lol 20:22:46 so the actual pieces are represented as rules of neighborhoods 20:23:17 and the fun of the design is determining which neighborhoods map to which pieces 20:23:49 I came up with a set but I never did anything with this idea 20:24:09 Changing the subject somewhat, is it possible to construct a physical machine that did functional programming at its lowest level? 20:25:19 See: the Reduceron. 20:26:28 The idea could also be extended into fairy chess. 20:27:42 or even result in resignation. 20:27:44 no! 20:28:01 Wrong convo? 20:28:13 sorry taneb 20:28:19 wrong attitude 20:28:23 i will join your convo 20:29:27 Some sort of von Neumman architecture? 20:29:43 Taneb: "And the next command is the one after that." "that" being _both_ the interpolated commands? 20:29:51 Yes 20:30:03 ok then i think i understand 20:31:44 Taneb, http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ 20:35:49 how about: you have a finite set of states S, partitioned into E and U, the existential and the universal states. now for a point x \in S^Z, you can define its E-successors by changing all the cells of x in an E state to their possible successors, and its U-successors similarly; there's a local rule that tells you what changes are legal. now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N partitions S^Z we get a subset of points from which the game goes on foreve 20:35:59 i'll paste the latter half just in case 20:36:00 there's a local rule that tells you what changes are legal. now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N partitions S^Z we get a subset of points from which the game goes on forever, say for EUEUEUEU... this means from x, for some choice of new cell values by E, for any choice of any cell by U, for some choice of... 20:36:26 one way to have alternation but i'm not sure that's the most natural thing to do. 20:36:52 argh 20:37:17 *now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N we can associate the set of points of S^Z from which the game goes on forever, 20:37:21 sry 20:38:10 working on CAs it must be tough to resist the topic i came up with. 20:39:22 What is your opinion of the way the List of ideas has now been formatted on esolang wiki? 20:39:23 we're gettin wam oklofok 20:39:51 what's wanm 20:39:52 *wam 20:40:04 this tends at least to an idea i had of it.. 20:40:18 so, on looking at reduceron page, I feel my ineptitude. what's the best language to learn functional programming concepts? 20:40:30 BYOB 20:40:34 hagb4rd: ? 20:41:03 without beeing able to implement it an alg0 20:41:10 http://byob.berkely.edu 20:41:30 thanks 20:41:53 i have tried reading up on lambda calc once but i never quite got it 20:42:04 That site's got a tutorial 20:42:09 For BYOB 20:42:12 ^ http://byob.berkeley.edu/ 20:42:14 It's how I leant it 20:42:19 *learnt it 20:42:25 Do you know of some Icehouse+Tarot games? I have read about one such game called Gnostica. However, I have neither Icehouse nor Tarot. 20:42:30 oh nice it's visual programming 20:42:41 Yeah, it's based on Scratch 20:42:59 I won't fuck the room again by my ideas about visual programming. 20:43:02 Taneb, that... doesn't look functional. 20:43:07 ill just quiet down 20:43:17 It has functional bits in it 20:43:23 By which I mean it's not functional by any stretch of the imagination. 20:43:30 Functional bits don't make it functional. 20:43:35 the original idea of course was that s = EEE... would give you SFT's, in some sense. but that's not really happening atm... 20:43:47 Functional bits means you can learn functional programming with it 20:44:06 Scheme or Haskell is basically the best way to go. 20:44:10 because if you think my ideas about torus worlds, gravity CAs, chess CAs make a mess. then visual programming is just as bad 20:44:48 i'll save it for another day 20:48:47 you may have already supplied me with next week's research topic (by putting games and CA close to each other), this is actually something i've been wanting to do for ages but i had to work on my master's thesis last time so it never got anywhere 20:49:05 Yay 20:49:14 I smash them together like a particle collider 20:49:40 gravity + ca is certainly interesting but you could ofc only publish it as a joke 20:49:52 =)) 20:50:09 i mean the answer to my particular question of whether you can implement gravity behavior with a ca 20:50:24 > cycle "Haskell " 20:50:25 "Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Haskell Ha... 20:50:29 Basically I see things as existing in academic space and entertainment space. 20:50:56 but actually a somewhat similar (much simpler) question was recently solved in a famous 150 or so page paper in the 1d case, i just realized 20:51:14 I take inspiration from people like lewis carroll 20:51:45 I take inspiration from JRR Tolkein 20:51:52 hmm... 20:51:54 the academic space is a subset of the entertainment space 20:52:04 I say it's the other way round 20:52:09 this may be off topic, but, i had one chess idea about a castle and a forest 20:52:11 Taneb, nah. 20:52:18 I would say the spaces overlap but neither is a subset of the other 20:52:22 the idea is you can enter the forest and emerge from it whereever you like 20:52:29 thus effectively hiding in it 20:52:32 (i can't imagine any chess related idea being mathematically interesting really) 20:53:07 there was something about guards on the castle. i dunno exactly how it went 20:53:10 (A lot of people would say mathematically interesting is a tautology) 20:53:28 Taneb, nah. 20:53:35 oklofok: well there is the question of complexity class 20:53:36 I didn't say us 20:53:39 There's plenty of boring mathematics. 20:53:42 oklofok, well to me, chess is a CA in disguise. 20:54:12 It just needs to be teased out from its disguise 20:54:20 Like a mime 20:54:29 When you try to make one talk 20:54:30 mine the mimes 20:54:40 oerjan: does this sound familiar: take two topological spaces U and T and a point x in T. stick U in place of x. 20:54:40 oklofok, well to me, chess is a CA in disguise. 20:54:48 itidus20, it's non-deterministic? 20:54:59 assume additional stuff for U and T if useful 20:55:00 hmm... 20:55:12 hoover, well it could be deterministic :D 20:55:14 It's a phase sppace 20:55:16 that would be a cool thing 20:55:19 deterministic chess 20:55:30 It's deterministic in the fifth dimension 20:55:31 itidus20, no, it would literally be the most boring thing in the world. 20:55:33 Or sixth 20:55:41 oklofok: i'm not sure if it has a name but it's a pretty obvious thing to do... 20:55:45 but i was thinking open sets are generated by those of U, and those of T with x replaced by the whole U 20:55:54 oerjan: sure 20:55:57 replace the players with a rule for evolving the chessboard closer to an end. 20:56:03 have you seen it done? 20:56:11 oklofok, isn't that a fibre— no, wait, it's just a single point. 20:56:24 " oklofok, well to me, chess is a CA in disguise." <<< i don't see it that way at all 20:56:34 oklofok: you'd probably want U to be closed as a subspace, since {x} is (assuming hausdorff spaces) 20:56:40 I had an idea once, chess with two time dinensions. 20:56:45 (or T1) 20:56:55 I once tried to do battleships as a CA 20:57:06 I didn't get very far 20:57:15 :/ 20:57:19 oerjan: well it would be obviously 20:57:20 Taneb, protip: games are universally nondeterministic. 20:57:26 with my topology 20:57:35 Hence why I didn't get very far 20:57:58 because T - {x} is still open 20:58:11 oklofok: also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgery_theory which is somewhat different but feels related 20:58:13 U would be a clopen set tho so hmm. 20:58:17 theres a mix of ideas that come into play. a binary CA is easily computable and could be said to be properly reduced. or more optimized etc, however -- the factor of human comprehension is always important 20:59:04 humans comprehend chess pieces easily. so are they not better for humans to manipulate than binary tiles 20:59:24 I think there is a tradeoff involved with no perfect answer. 20:59:35 oerjan: i should certainly read some literature on this stuff 20:59:40 itidus20, they're fundamentally different abstractions. 20:59:41 on it, but progress is slow 20:59:46 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 20:59:48 s/abstractions/structures/ 20:59:51 since i constantly come up with new problems to solve :\ 21:00:37 oklofok, meanwhile I still have over a year until university. 21:00:37 well chess has more cell states {pawn, king, queen, knight, bishop, rook} x {white, black} 21:00:41 It's horrible. 21:00:51 Don't forget unoccupied 21:00:54 itidus20: And empty spaces. 21:00:56 yes i forgot that 21:01:04 hmm 21:01:16 ( {pawn, king, queen, knight, bishop, rook} x {white, black} ) + {blank} 21:01:28 oklofok: mind you this is not a field i know much more than the name of either 21:01:36 13? 21:01:49 Where does location fit into that model? 21:01:57 " oklofok, meanwhile I still have over a year until university." <<< math? 21:02:04 oklofok, of course. 21:02:08 :)) 21:02:11 Location is inherent, Sgeo 21:02:12 oklofok: that cell attachment thing mentioned in that article sounds promising but there was no link 21:02:13 yayyy 21:02:19 there are some issues with that model though.. thats true 21:02:28 it is wise to note that theres things missing 21:02:29 By which I mean that these cells are all in the correct location 21:02:33 You could also have additional states if you want to keep track of en passan and castling as cell states as well. 21:02:42 zzo, yup... 21:02:54 itidus20, look, CAs are not well viewed as entities moving around a space. 21:03:05 King-castled and king-notcastled 21:03:05 langton's ant is one exception 21:03:15 Rook-castled and Rook-notcastled 21:03:17 i guess actually the "correct" topology is having T's open sets with x replaced by open sets of U 21:03:26 There are many exceptions, but they are in the minority. 21:03:33 and human intervention is even worse :P 21:03:55 oklofok: interestingly googling "cell attachment topology" is not enough to restrict the hits to mathematics :P 21:04:02 The point is that trying to start viewing CAs that way will just confuse you later on. 21:04:07 like in the movie dark city.. when a generation has finished secret activiies of the night adjust the city 21:04:10 oklofok: interestingly googling "cell attachment topology" is not enough to restrict the hits to mathematics :P 21:04:24 Topologies of biological cells attached to each other? 21:04:27 assuming hausdorff space you will then get the topology of T by taking the open sets of this thing but "rounding elements of U up to x" 21:04:29 Only the rooks need to keep track of castling restrictions, not the king. If the king moves, both rooks change to the one unabled to be castling. 21:04:41 Phantom_Hoover: yeah something like that 21:05:03 I force myself to be iconoclastic and autodidactic in this. 21:05:04 itidus20, and yes, as Sgeo points out, chess has a certain amount of hidden state as well. 21:05:18 yeah i forgot those hidden states, but they can be unhidden :D 21:05:21 Chess doesn't have hidden information. 21:05:22 Hmm, why both rooks, instead of a random rook? 21:05:28 they are sort of hidden 21:05:32 itidus20, yes, but then you're shoehorning. 21:05:34 they were indeed left out of my model 21:05:35 And no, they're not. 21:05:40 They are completely hidden. 21:05:43 its a bit of a kludge, i know 21:05:53 its messy, very messy 21:05:54 Looking at the board, it's impossible to tell if the king has castled. 21:06:02 yes but... you see.. 21:06:08 Yes, and kludges are exactly what you were trying to avoid. 21:06:10 you could add a red king 21:06:10 Unless you had been paying any attention to the game 21:06:12 Sgeo: Both rooks just seems like a better way to do it, it simplifys some things 21:06:13 hahahaha 21:06:24 pre-castled king could be red and yellow 21:06:35 You said yourself you were trying to make a natural chess CA; that is impossible. 21:06:39 thats very creative of you 21:06:42 itidus20, why are you trying to assign colors to this? 21:06:49 Unless you had been paying any attention to the game 21:06:56 Except that's the point. 21:07:03 Game of Life isn't described in terms of black and white, just "living" and "dead" 21:07:04 I think the kings don't need castling state, only the rooks do. 21:07:14 Hidden state means that you can't work out the future moves of the game based purely on its present state. 21:07:14 I'm saying it isn't hidden information 21:07:21 sgeo: because I am trying to not take sides 21:07:31 ...take sides? 21:07:37 yeah 21:07:47 Sgeo: Sometimes black/white, sometimes different colors, by standard called "living" and "dead", although I prefer "on" and "off". 21:07:49 In a game of chess, both players know whether a king has moved, and whether a pawn has just moved twice 21:07:50 OK, I'm defining 'hidden state' to be state not ascertainable by looking at the position of pieces on the board at a given time. 21:07:50 i have proven that you could represent the hidden information if you wanted to 21:08:17 Because the positions of pieces on the board at a given time is all you have in the CA. 21:08:26 yeah thats cos my CA sucked 21:08:37 itidus20, yes, and I have already said that it rules out an elegant representation, which is what you were trying to make. 21:08:39 but i could multiply the states by a few more booleans. i know its ugly 21:08:43 I have also described a few ways in which you can put these information part of the board state, by adding new kind of pieces for this information 21:08:45 :(( 21:08:46 yes 21:08:55 this is true. its inelegant 21:09:01 Phantom_Hoover: well with a CA there is no trouble adding some extra piece types to encode the necessary hidden state 21:09:02 But still what you do not tell, is which player plays next. 21:09:09 oerjan, itidus20, yes, and I have already said that it rules out an elegant representation, which is what you were trying to make. 21:09:33 i never ever ever thought of this before though.. colored pieces 21:09:37 Phantom_Hoover, define "elegant" 21:09:39 yeah, I'm redacting my comment about learning functional programming with BYOB 21:09:49 Now there is 2 kind of rooks, castling allowed rooks, and castling disallowed rooks. 21:09:51 Phantom_Hoover: chess _already_ has pieces which change 21:10:06 Ok I admit that I use no true scotsman logic. I believe it has some value. 21:10:21 And 2 kind of pawns, the kind which has just been moved two spaces, and the normal kind. 21:10:23 Sgeo, one in which the cells are completely analogous to the pieces on the board. 21:10:27 More or less. 21:10:41 That makes "no hidden state" a tautology, of course. 21:10:43 itidus20: yeah everyone knows Phantom_Hoover is no true scotsman 21:10:48 i mean me 21:10:49 Make a CA whose neighborhood also extends backwards in time to the initial state 21:10:51 I drink tea all the time! 21:10:52 oh 21:10:54 hmm im confused 21:11:02 My accent is inexplicably English! 21:11:13 Make a CA whose neighborhood also extends backwards in time to the initial state 21:11:13 Or is that too insane? 21:11:14 there is nothing wrong with revising an argument as long as the intention is good 21:11:23 Preeeety sure that doesn't count as a CA. 21:11:29 For one thing, there's no initial state. 21:11:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:36 itidus20, the joke is that I am Scottish. 21:11:42 cool 21:12:02 Phantom_Hoover: CA have initial states? 21:12:19 i'm going to have to be surprised by this claim! 21:12:23 Some of my best chat friends have been Scots 21:12:24 oh 21:12:32 oklofok, exactly. 21:12:33 you mean no initial configuration or what? 21:12:46 oh you meant 21:12:55 CA have no... no bleh w/e 21:13:03 oklofok, I mean something along the lines that each generation has no idea when the initial state was. 21:13:10 oklofok: in the beginning there was the garden of eden 21:13:15 The transition rules are time-invariant, in other words. 21:13:16 sgeo: the buddha said that you can't do it and you will go mad trying. 21:13:31 We're all mad here 21:14:02 oerjan, what was that Alice in Wonderland quote again? 21:14:12 Can the transition rules mention a specific state? Hmm, that doesn't work, initial chess state is NOT a garden of eden 21:14:21 Thus back in india 2500 years ago or whatever they were discussing that you will go mad trying to trace back to original causes 21:14:24 * oerjan pours some hatmaking chemicals into Taneb's tea 21:14:37 oerjan: god said, let there not be two asymptotically equal states of the world with the same image, and thus there was a garden of eden. 21:14:43 I can't stand tea! 21:14:48 sgeo, the problem is that chess isn't deterministic. if it was then you could 21:15:00 Sgeo: the whole point of CA is they are continuous, meaning they only depend on a finite amount of cells near them 21:15:08 * Taneb absorbs the aroma of tea 21:15:12 Ok, so so much for that 21:15:13 what's a CA? 21:15:17 * Taneb dies of inhaling hatmaking chemicals 21:15:21 argh 21:15:25 sorry oerjan 21:15:27 It's a State in South west US 21:15:28 aitp,atpm? 21:15:31 automaton? 21:15:34 sgeo: I mean, you can't see which piece was the last one to move by looking at a chessboard. 21:15:36 what god said was 21:15:46 let there be two such states. 21:16:06 I can't stand tea! 21:16:09 A CA is a cellular Automaton, cheater_ 21:16:09 DIE YOU BASTARD 21:16:16 I like the aroma 21:16:29 also, suppose that a rook moved left, then right, then left... you couldn't determine how far left and right it moved 21:16:31 Just the aftertaste... 21:16:40 *the afterfnarf 21:16:54 cheater__: i just gave the definition a few hours ago 21:17:24 oh right cellular automaton, i can't believe people don't know the abbrev... 21:17:53 "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." 21:18:41 is that a set theory thing? :D 21:18:49 itidus20: ? 21:18:55 is what 21:19:00 that the teaparty consists of a set of mad people 21:19:02 sorry oerjan <-- wat? 21:19:09 oerjan: my god thing 21:19:11 corrected 21:19:22 I think it's a four dimensional vectors thing 21:19:29 itidus20: where do you think bertrand russell got his teapot from anyway 21:19:46 Taneb, why are you suddenly talking about 4D vectors? 21:20:04 Something to do with the Mad Hatter's Tea Party 21:20:06 so those people that gets healed by faith healers, why don't they get really mad and make a big deal out of it not working? 21:20:07 I'm sure 21:20:11 oerjan: not well read enough 21:20:14 or does it actually work 21:20:38 oklofok: people are complex. 21:21:10 itidus20, well, except the real ones. 21:21:14 there is first of all, certain implications about a person for visiting the faith healer in the first place 21:21:27 just as there is implications about a person visiting a brothel 21:21:27 I'm still trying to figure out how to get that sign I have that says Taneb into town centre 21:21:37 Taneb, carry it? 21:21:43 It's pretty big 21:21:51 How big? 21:21:58 Around A0? 21:22:03 " just as there is implications about a person visiting a brothel" <<< like living in a country that has those? 21:22:06 It'll get wet 21:22:12 australia 21:22:27 what do you expect from convicts 21:22:29 heh 21:22:31 or are there others? 21:22:39 might be 21:22:58 but like.. such a person is unlikely to say put some bloody clothes on 21:23:18 I've got relatives in Australia 21:23:19 and.. also.. if the sex is bad.. is it his fault or her fault 21:23:33 i'm not following you 21:23:42 i suspect that theres not much room for refunds at a brothel 21:24:06 you get naked with a woman and you're not getting a refund 21:24:51 still not 21:25:08 the chances of someone wanting to try a faith healer and then getting angry about what happens is much decreased than if its a skeptic doing research 21:25:09 How are you going to return the goods, oklofok? 21:25:42 how do you return the goods if you go up the eiffel tower and the view was not good? 21:25:51 You don't. 21:25:55 humans, also, are reasonable overall. sometimes they let things go. 21:25:56 You can't. 21:25:59 not saying he's not correct, i'm asking what the fuck he's talking about 21:26:09 Whores. 21:26:10 oh 21:26:11 that 21:26:20 company policies tend to be based around the likelihood of customers to not kick up a fuss 21:26:23 what "the fuck" indeed 21:26:38 " so those people that gets healed by faith healers, why don't they get really mad and make a big deal out of it not working?" 21:26:43 so do you mean people might be ashamed of even thinking it might work? 21:27:06 its actually in human nature to let things be more often than not 21:27:22 Because people who have faith in the faith healers will ignore the naysayers, and people who don't just laugh at the naysayers for being slow 21:27:28 but i don't recall hearing about even one case of a tv faith healing not working 21:27:28 with a few more rambunctious individuals standing up for the greater whole 21:27:45 This is boring, can we go back to talking about maths? 21:27:56 :D 21:27:58 i love ph 21:28:34 and reallly noone knows what is possible 21:28:44 yep 21:28:45 overestimation of knowledgebase is a common occurance 21:28:47 or wait 21:28:51 by noone you mean everyone right? 21:29:08 just as a programmer can't answer every arbitrary question about a computer 21:29:23 a faith healer can't necessarily explain why something might or might not work 21:29:51 Is collective human intelligence turing-complete? 21:29:57 and a person with a working respitory system probably doesn't know exactly how it works either 21:30:06 Or extelligence, even 21:30:10 we more or less have no clue what our bodies are doing 21:30:30 This was addressed in a Terry Pratchett book 21:30:36 Reaper Man, I think 21:30:36 Phantom_Hoover: so did you know that in a compact hausdorff space the closed sets are exactly the compact ones 21:30:58 I do now! 21:31:02 hausdorff = for every x != y you find disjoint neighborhoods for x and y 21:31:08 Is collective human intelligence turing-complete? 21:31:08 No. 21:31:16 maybe i'll prove this now 21:31:22 hmmhmm i wonder how it goes 21:31:31 Even if you include those people with perfect memory 21:31:44 Taneb, for one thing, there's no such thing as infinite storage. 21:32:40 so first, let C be closed, and let S be an open cover for it (open sets whose union covers C). by adding X - C where X is the whole space, we get an open cover for X, and since X is compact, you then find a finite subcover for X, which gives you a finite subcover for C as well. so closed => compact. 21:32:49 as for the other direction, let's see... 21:32:59 i thnk rather than physical and mental, there is the experiential (conciousness and qualia and all that) and the inexplicableness which makes it possible 21:33:36 but to divide them is wrong. theres a lot of evil that goes on when toying with such ideas 21:33:52 not dividing them might also be wrong 21:34:42 so i guess that the natural way of things is to simply admit we don't understand 21:35:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia 21:35:25 let C be compact, and let x \notin C. for every point y in C we find open U_y and V_y such that U_y contains x, V_y contains y and U_y and V_y are disjoint (this is just hausdorffness). now V_y's actually form an open cover of C, so there's a finite subcover (compactness of C) of the V_y. let's say the indices are Y. but now, the intersection of U_y where y \in Y is open (because it's finite!) so in fact we have separated x from C 21:35:30 x is arbitrary => C is closed 21:36:18 this is kind of trivial i suppose but it's very useful to remember since almost all important spaces are hausdorff, and many are compact. 21:37:07 any view which explains everything is necessarily a false view 21:37:18 (for instance all metric spaces are hausdorff and all bounded metric spaces are compact) 21:38:41 Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU FIND THAT TOO TRIVIAL? 21:38:57 YES 21:39:42 do you know what a path is? 21:40:00 well anyway a continuous function from [0, 1] to your favorite topological space 21:40:49 like f : [0, 1] -> X such that f(x) = y implies if y is in an open set U then for small enough perturbations of x, the image won't go outside U 21:40:56 (definition of continuity) 21:41:10 now what is a continuous subset of X? 21:41:12 erm 21:41:13 sorry 21:41:19 *now what is a connected subset of X? 21:41:34 can you come up with a definition using the idea of a path 21:42:51 (i have a bad habit of giving people homework) 21:43:08 "One time I went to buy some ice cream ... I walked over to the vendor and asked her what kind of ice cream she had. 'Fruit ice cream,' she said. But she answered in such a tone that a whole pile of coals, of black cinders, came bursting out of her mouth, and I couldn't bring myself to buy any ice cream after she had answered in that way ..." 21:43:36 I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory 21:43:43 But linked the wrong thing 21:43:50 your link was cool 21:44:28 ok so I had this idea just the other day 21:44:59 Chess variants as XML? 21:45:04 This may sound odd. Normally, we assign a word to only single dimensional numbers. 21:45:16 Like "seven" 21:45:17 but suppose we were to assign words to numbers with more than one dimension. 21:45:25 taneb: yes, like seven 21:45:32 Like "2+6i" 21:45:34 seven = [7] 21:45:38 no.. not quite 21:45:43 can you come up with a definition using the idea of a path 21:46:26 -!- elliott has joined. 21:46:35 hi 21:46:36 elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:46:41 wow 21:46:49 A subset such that \forall x, y \in X, \exists f : f(0) = x, f(1) = y? 21:47:03 suppose I said, lalala = [7][3] 21:47:04 where f is a path, precisely 21:47:06 oops 21:47:09 this is called path-connectedness 21:47:10 Taneb: Are you serious do you live in Hexham. 21:47:12 suppose I said, lalala = [7,3] 21:47:22 oops i am misinterpreting the comma 21:47:26 So, vectors? 21:47:33 maybe we should go with my first comment 21:47:38 Phantom_Hoover: it would've been SLIGHTLY less trivial if i had specified we're asking when Y a subset of X is connected 21:47:40 anyway now 21:47:47 taneb, the trick is that every number is already a vector 21:47:51 seven = [7] 21:48:06 Y is path-connected if, with the subspace topology, what you said is true for it 21:48:06 seven = [7][0] 21:48:11 So, we're giving names to n-length vectors 21:48:19 its an idea i had. yeah 21:48:33 that amounts to Y being path-connected if and only if for all x, y in Y, there's a path f that goes completely inside Y. 21:48:36 so 21:48:39 I don't think we can change the English language like that 21:48:47 the reason i'm saying this is path-connectedness is that there's also another thing called connectedness 21:48:55 which is slightly harder to guess 21:49:32 Taneb: SILENT TREATMENT I SEE 21:49:41 we say X is connected if it cannot be partitioned into open sets except in the trivial way of just having the whole X in one component 21:49:47 ... 21:49:52 Taneb, but it is sort of interesting eh? 21:49:57 Yeah 21:49:58 who's itidus20 btw 21:50:03 now, is there a connection between path-connectedness and connectedness? 21:50:08 I have no ieda 21:50:08 i just stumbled in here. 21:50:16 I have no idea, either 21:50:39 im probably the dumbest in here. 21:50:49 I dunno, I'm here 21:51:12 dumber than asie? 21:51:23 probably 21:51:31 Dumber than oklofok? 21:51:38 certainly 21:51:41 hahah no way that's gonna happen 21:51:45 elliott: Silet treatment about what? 21:51:53 Taneb: Taneb: Are you serious do you live in Hexham. 21:51:54 :-P 21:51:56 you know just now i was like, hey i have some pizza let's eat 21:51:56 Yes 21:51:57 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:51:59 I don't know algebra. 21:52:01 Taneb: Me too. 21:52:04 and then i look in the fridge and it's empty 21:52:04 I heard 21:52:10 and i'm like what the fuck happened to my pizza 21:52:13 Taneb: I find this vaguely inconceivable. 21:52:14 and then i saw i had eaten it 21:52:18 It happens 21:52:19 and i was :( 21:52:41 " I don't know algebra." <<< the true definition of smartness 21:52:41 elliott, you have seen the log when I found out haven't you it is hilarious. 21:52:44 i mean 21:52:47 how well you know algebra 21:53:29 Is there a way to find out how many users there are on the wiki? 21:53:35 hey! Taneb maybe you could also invite elliott to the proof party! 21:53:42 Yeah! 21:53:47 Proof party! 21:53:48 Taneb: Special:Listusers or something 21:53:55 i can say i don't understand any of the quotes in here which get mathematical 21:54:33 itidus20: most of the math stuff i say is just for my own amusement 21:54:35 There are 678 users on the wiki 21:54:45 it doesn't even mean anything 21:54:58 Hexham has a population that I'm gonna call 10000 for easier maths 21:55:05 The world has 6 billion people in 21:55:13 12000 would've been easier silly 21:55:13 Taneb, I don't even need to tell you why that count is crazily skewed. 21:55:41 No you don't 21:55:54 Well, OK, it's only inflated by 50 or so. 21:56:34 elliot: they mentioned you before. when i was talking about the idea of making a CA in which connected live cells have a collective mass and hence gravity. 21:57:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6WKz-z0GYA&NR=1 21:57:04 By these numbers, there is a 1 in 600000 chance of a random person living in Hexham 21:57:22 Now, with 700 users on the esolang wiki 21:57:57 That means there is over a 1 in 1000 chance of one living in Hexham 21:58:04 is there any better way to stalk elliott 21:58:07 Two is over 1 million 21:58:09 Taneb, you of course realise that the probability of a random esolanger being from Hexham is much more than 1/600000. 21:58:09 one in one thousand is pretty bad odds 21:58:10 monqy: ? 21:58:24 Probably 21:58:24 picking random people is pretty lousy 21:58:33 monqy: what are you talking about 21:58:43 apparently something unrelated 21:58:52 As most of those 600000 people don't even know English, let alone move in the social circles that lead to us. 21:58:59 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:59:18 what's the speakation number of english? 21:59:37 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 21:59:45 Taneb: OK fine, the chance of a random person who is both an esolanger and who reads MSPA living in Hexham is pretty low :-P 21:59:47 oklofok: 9 21:59:49 500 million to 1.8 billion 21:59:53 Taneb: ARE YOU HAPPY NOW 21:59:59 YES 22:00:05 MORE SO NOW I KNOW I AM NOT ALONE 22:00:18 Taneb: NOPE, sorry, I'm moving into a cave. 22:00:20 I MUST BE ALONE. 22:00:25 Fine. 22:00:29 Who else is in Hexlam?/ 22:00:29 Be that way 22:00:33 Sgeo: Nobody. 22:00:35 See how I care 22:00:38 Me and Taneb are the only two people in Hexham. 22:00:49 Ah 22:00:56 well i kind of live in hexham too 22:01:02 I thought you uncovered some fax alias or something 22:01:18 Sgeo: wat? 22:01:21 Taneb, do you play Minecraft? 22:01:26 Yes... 22:01:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:01:50 Does Elliott 22:01:52 Well, I think we can chalk that down to coincidence; also go to #esoteric-minecraft now. 22:01:56 elliott, as in, Hexham was where fax lives or something, so it would seem likely that Taneb is fax 22:02:07 (for instance all metric spaces are hausdorff and all bounded metric spaces are compact) <-- BZZZT WRONG. *complete, totally bounded 22:02:09 Yes Taneb is totally fax. 22:02:17 Taneb: WHY ARE YOU LITERALLY ME 22:02:27 I'M NOT YOU 22:02:35 elliott, erm, fax lived in Hexham? 22:02:37 I'M AN ESTIMATED 2-3 YEARS YOUNGER 22:02:40 Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know. 22:02:45 Taneb: How old? 22:02:47 Taneb, 1½, actually. 22:02:48 itidus20: see, what i said earlier didn't make sense without oerjan's addition 22:02:54 16 22:02:55 Phantom_Hoover, no, but I thought maybe that was the case, and that was the "weird coincidence" 22:03:03 That might not have been a coincidence 22:03:14 Sgeo, come on, you've seen fax's socks. 22:03:20 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not seventeen and a half. 22:03:28 oklo: i am a magnitude more clueless about math. 22:03:33 socks? 22:03:42 Taneb, oh, so you didn't live n the UK for 1½ years. 22:03:55 Phantom_Hoover, assuming you mean IP, then I don't pay attention to those 22:03:56 oerjan: what's totally bounded? by bounded i meant the space is a ball. but obviously you will then need to add completeness yeah because R^2 would be a counterexample otherwise 22:03:58 Taneb: I'm almost sixteen :-P 22:04:05 (by using a different metric) 22:04:10 Huh 22:04:34 And I've been outside the UK for why the hell do I have a US keyboard layout 1 1/2 years 22:05:05 Taneb, because you have a Mac? 22:05:10 No 22:05:14 I think it's this client 22:05:24 That's a pretty crappy client. 22:05:46 Ha, you use Windows; I am justifiably superior. 22:05:53 I use Linux 22:05:59 -Taneb- VERSION leafChat 2.3 Windows XP 5.1 http://www.leafdigital.com/software/leafchat/ 22:06:03 Not at the moment 22:06:08 Dammit. 22:06:09 But I do normally 22:06:11 elliott, maybe he's running it in Wine. 22:06:17 Because he is mad. 22:06:32 Taneb, shut up I'm making up crazy theories here and you're spoiling them. 22:06:43 I'm already crazy enough 22:06:46 oerjan: is the proof hard btw? 22:07:05 Taneb: OK so you are required to stop being literally me. 22:07:05 I got famous last year for wearing a dressing gown and joining a political organization 22:07:26 elliott, Taneb probably takes real science subjects. 22:07:26 i don't directly see it, sequential compactness shouldn't be very hard and then i guess you can show compactness eq to that in metric spaces 22:07:30 Taneb: What. 22:07:51 I'm actually serious 22:07:59 Taneb: EXPLAIN YOURSEF 22:08:00 ..L 22:08:02 what does famous mean 22:08:05 Taneb, wait, I wear a dressing gown. 22:08:12 I've been described as a North-East legend 22:08:18 I... 22:08:24 And I'm not famous for being crazy well OK I am but not for wearing a dressing gown. 22:08:41 Taneb: You are required to explain 22:08:53 Summer '09. 22:09:04 good explanation 22:09:32 darthsandroids.net was running a competition 22:09:46 I entered with a picture of me in a dressing gown holding a model lightsabre 22:09:47 Taneb, oh, not the student protests YES I GOOGLESTALKED 22:10:01 Set this as my Facebook profile picture 22:10:08 No, PH, that came later 22:10:16 http://darthsandroids.net/ is a free iPod site. You'd think it'd be a free Android phone site. 22:10:23 (Or, y'know, Darths and Droids.) 22:10:25 Cut to February 22:10:32 War were declared 22:10:38 A galaxy in turmoil 22:10:50 Anyway, Febuary '10 22:10:56 Taneb, and you turned up in a dressing gown and lightsabre? 22:11:01 `addquote Cut to February War were declared A galaxy in turmoil Anyway, Febuary '10 22:11:02 506) Cut to February War were declared A galaxy in turmoil Anyway, Febuary '10 22:11:25 I saw a poster saying "Be a Youth Representative for Northumberland" 22:11:28 Signed up 22:11:30 (We have people in Scotland protesting tuition fee rises for them.) 22:11:35 Won the election by a landslide 22:11:41 (It's hilarious.) 22:11:46 That was November '10, PH 22:11:51 When I did that 22:11:54 Quiet, you. 22:11:59 Got in the Financial Times and everything 22:12:13 Point is, Loads of people across Northumberland heard of me. 22:12:18 I haven't, ha ha ha. 22:12:24 YOU'RE NOT FAMOUS IF I DON'T KNOW YOUR NAME 22:12:29 This was aided by my awesome name and facial hair (RIP) 22:12:29 am i famous 22:12:33 * elliott immediately stops consuming all forms of media. 22:12:41 Taneb: sorry Phantom_Hoover's name is cooler. 22:12:45 Mostly because I can't spell it. 22:12:55 Mine makes me sound like a supervillain 22:12:59 i wonder if i'm famous yet 22:13:21 Adhamhnáin_McCuil: Put him in his place 22:13:25 IF THAT'S YOUR /REAL/ NAME 22:13:30 good name 22:13:37 Which place is his? 22:13:51 The place of slightly inferior names to you. 22:14:13 And now I have 1789 friends on Facebook 22:14:19 Whore 22:14:29 I have 6. 22:14:31 I don't have a real facebook 22:14:34 jealous???? 22:14:37 I have two 22:14:46 i have undefined 22:14:54 english has bad type checking :( 22:15:11 elliott++ 22:15:11 I have carrots. 22:15:14 Zero, Elliott, when I heard you lived in Hexham I checked you out 22:15:23 im stalked 22:15:29 i deleted my facebook ages ago anyway 22:15:37 still only page three for picture languages :-< 22:15:51 Somebody called Robbie Soulsby described you as " Hes nee fukn wanker" 22:16:16 I have no idea who that is and I suspect they're not talking about me :-P 22:16:34 Take it was a complement 22:17:33 what does it mean 22:18:10 He is not someone who both has sex and masturbates 22:18:56 Somebody called Robbie Soulsby described you as " Hes nee fukn wanker" 22:18:59 Combination of bad spelling, profanity, and Geordie 22:19:04 Literate friends. 22:20:30 Indeed 22:20:51 You are currently stalking elliott by asking random friends if they've heard of him y/n 22:20:58 n 22:21:05 Asking random /people/ 22:21:06 Wrong answer. 22:21:16 Is this awesome [Y/n]? 22:21:20 n 22:21:31 PH: I wouldn't count them as friends 22:21:41 ND: It's stalking. 22:21:46 Stalking is bad 22:21:47 OK stop stalking me. 22:21:51 OK 22:22:07 Goodnight 22:22:19 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:25:47 oklofok: i don't remember the proof, i just looked up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totally_bounded_space 22:26:10 also, my jokes seem to be coming true. i need to be careful in the future. 22:26:25 ah 22:26:41 yeah that makes way more sense than the space being a ball since the space being a ball doesn't really give you anything. 22:26:48 topologically 22:26:51 oerjan, quick, joke that I'll discover that I'm heir to a vast inheritance tomorrow. 22:27:54 yes. a vast herd of sheep in the highlands. and a castle, which sadly is in a bit of a need of repairs. 22:28:01 don't we all wish our families would die 22:29:10 oklofok, I already know that I'm heir to my parents' stuff, so that doesn't count as discovering. 22:29:22 good point 22:29:37 oerjan, hmm, how vast are we talking. 22:29:40 i have no idea how much money my parents have 22:30:10 like i have no idea which [10^n, 10^{n+1}] it's in 22:30:34 Phantom_Hoover: enough to eat lamb every day for the rest of your life 22:30:40 oklofok: ask them? 22:30:49 oerjan, hmm, that's a lot of sheep. 22:30:55 I could sell them for a fair amount. 22:30:57 I would guess much less than 100 million moneys 22:31:06 olsner: i doubt they'd tell me 22:31:18 i don't even know if my mom has a religion 22:33:06 i have a hunch she votes for parties that are into that environment protection stuff, but i have no idea about my dad, really i don't even know whether he votes 22:33:38 oklofok, consider that you may be an orphan. 22:33:45 ? :D 22:34:25 in what sense 22:34:56 oklofok, well, for instance, have you ever actually seen your dad. 22:35:05 hmm 22:35:07 good question 22:35:13 i think i have, yes 22:35:20 a couple of times 22:36:05 I mean, your parents may well have died when you were 2 and all you can remember is that your mother voted for environmental parties. 22:36:16 Possibly because she took baby you into the polling booth. 22:36:21 well i did live with them for 19 years or so 22:36:39 oklofok, hmm, that's harder to fit to the hypothesis. 22:37:08 although they spent the last year mostly at our summer house because i liked having the house to myself and they liked gardening and shit 22:37:26 i mean the non-summer house 22:37:55 oklofok, wait a minute why do you like topology it's not even discrete explain?????????????? 22:38:06 that was an awesome year, my last year of high school, all i did was sit in my armchair naked and eat pizza 22:38:24 Phantom_Hoover: i dunno! that is kind of weird! 22:38:45 but S^Z has a topology as well 22:38:57 and it's pretty discrete in spirit 22:39:27 we also measure subsets of S^Z every day 22:39:46 it's a pretty routine thing 23:02:03 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:02:33 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:03:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:04:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:06:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:12:40 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to find citation for the story about Prince Charles' bodyguard at Cambridge. 23:13:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:15:20 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hag[4]rd. 23:15:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:16:44 19:21:21: it does not disappear when i scroll 23:16:44 huh, that's new 23:17:03 yeah 23:18:52 20:09:29: Man, I just got confused when Wikipedia didn't have an article on the Churing-Turch Thesis 23:18:53 but it does? 23:19:38 20:20:38: Taneb: no, my language 23:19:38 20:20:43: http://pastebin.com/MDEebq26 23:19:44 elliott, note last letters. 23:19:45 expired and on a bad pastebin. hth. 23:19:49 *first letters 23:19:53 Phantom_Hoover: :D 23:34:10 pastebin.com is bad? 23:34:24 Also, sometimes I posted pastes in here deliberately set to expire 23:34:27 Like the #jesus stuff 23:34:36 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:35:28 pastebin.com is bad? 23:35:29 Yes. 23:35:31 Also, sometimes I posted pastes in here deliberately set to expire 23:35:32 I hate you. 23:44:04 I don't feel comfortable posting pastes of a non-publically logged channel into a publically logged channel 23:45:01 I don't feel comfortable knowing that expiring pastes exist. 23:45:45 vjn pastes will expire in a year :( although they will just move to another domain 23:46:09 oklofok: which domain, if.njv? 23:46:49 i will tell you when it's relevant 23:48:06 oklofok: SHEESH I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A QUARTER-JOKE 23:49:11 Can you invent any card game using the Fanucci deck? 23:52:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:52:53 elliott: make a whole joke next time hth 23:53:06 oerjan: why? _you_ never do 23:53:12 OHHHH BURN 23:53:35 but that's for the extra fridge logic punch... 23:55:52 http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/01596_2.gif