< 1311292834 228044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm you limit kipple stacks to length 32256 iiuc < 1311292867 708361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's spelled "instantiate" ;D < 1311293010 778734 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: can ORK do recursive objects, and so e.g. linked lists? < 1311293023 782930 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't recall :) < 1311293036 474805 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311293331 662883 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1311294644 426659 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/stylesheet.css huh, they're actually interfering with RES < 1311294774 80715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, there's a lot of vitriol in that subreddit < 1311294917 93698 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :DebateReligion -> "there's a lot of vitriol in that subreddit" -> duh < 1311295678 523359 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a little creepy < 1311295680 725233 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, oops < 1311295683 891804 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :/** 'Force' users to use the subreddit style **/ < 1311296852 623647 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src reverse < 1311296853 443458 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse = foldl (flip (:)) [] < 1311297454 668882 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, told someone I was playing with Minecraft, he thought I meant minesweeper < 1311297485 33771 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, or maybe he was joking < 1311297764 152886 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_someone_ probably made minesweeper in minecraft < 1311297773 1097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with real explosions < 1311297866 784543 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-148-131.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, someone actually did. < 1311299556 817147 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311299581 771127 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311300008 825950 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311300125 882084 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161194.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311300907 380524 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311301264 267026 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311301457 1972 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-148-131.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311304877 983350 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311305897 384432 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311306368 554070 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311307708 576893 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1311307716 373651 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1311307727 336854 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux 3.0 is out. < 1311307761 957676 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :!python sum(['aaa','bbb','ccc']) < 1311307762 769068 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): < 1311307781 359298 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason why sum doesn't work on any data type that defines '+'? < 1311307971 274952 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the possible condition that it's order is not guaranteed if it's not cumulative, not associative or has side effects? < 1311311334 588071 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1311311795 656570 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311311825 469122 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played D&D game today. Can you guess the number of each of our experience points (me and my brother) (including both individual and group XP)? < 1311311931 694726 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Do I have any decent chance of guessing correctly? No. < 1311312069 212463 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :69? < 1311312137 269303 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. More than 69. Note we have experience level 20 currently < 1311312162 485403 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that it is not enough to go to level 21 < 1311312258 459856 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: 19,0000 experience? < 1311312284 338189 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the starting experience for level 20. (Also the comma doesn't belong there) < 1311312288 977309 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. 190,000, and why the hell did I do Japanese/Chinese grouping for that. < 1311312296 841847 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1311312301 663393 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the joke. < 1311312314 488553 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the amount gained, not the total amount. < 1311312317 409186 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I wonder if that's actually doable in a single encounter. < 1311312326 686052 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1311312376 627571 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't use encounter experience anyways; the DM assigns XP based on other things, including encounters and other stuff < 1311312426 152735 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But not the encounter experience table used in the book; instead XP is assigned based on what is achieved, meaning if an encounter is achieved then that counts too but based on achievements rather than encounter levels) < 1311312438 229215 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if you somehow stumbled across a vorpal sword at level one and then killed a deity, you could hit level 20. < 1311312458 163567 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: No. Because we also use the rule no more than 1 level up per session. < 1311312472 321498 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Lame. < 1311312485 648496 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And like I said we use achievement-based XP, not encounter-based XP. I prefer these differences in rules actually. < 1311312488 142478 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is indeed lame < 1311312493 811912 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: standard D&D rule is max 1 level per encounter < 1311312499 560743 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you decide to play twice as long one day < 1311312512 390447 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to arbitrarily break into smaller sessions? < 1311312515 320777 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Then a session break is added at one point, when XP is counted < 1311312528 596222 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1311312532 915935 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Lame. < 1311312565 956723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :We use max 1 level per session, and I like it this way so do the other players and the DM < 1311312593 276257 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Personally*, I prefer to have the DM arbitrarily do a level bump. < 1311312598 713684 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just me. < 1311312628 708955 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, XP is never counted except at the end of a session. You cannot level up during a session, even if there is a magic effect that adds XP to your total, in which case it is done immediately but does not level up until end of session < 1311312631 312504 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I happen to dislike CR and experience costs) < 1311312652 727883 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also happen to dislike CR. < 1311312667 412214 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Experience costs though, I don't dislike as much. < 1311312667 690993 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can kill deities in D&D without being one? < 1311312671 901011 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. < 1311312683 426680 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: D&D deities are just extraordinarily strong beings. < 1311312684 609577 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Depends on the campaign too. < 1311312703 379380 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presuming a "standard" setting; some settings can very well have omnipotent, immortal deities. < 1311312717 21947 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Yes. Depends on the campaign. < 1311312740 415891 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nearly every roleplaying game has an omnipotent immortal deity < 1311312751 543449 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, in most RPGs everything can be modified by the campaign. < 1311312754 388830 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The DM? < 1311312775 310412 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: yeah < 1311312957 997759 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in Forgotten Realms, there is one metadeity (the book says it is a deity but I don't believe them) < 1311313009 760860 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ao? < 1311313067 193967 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I mean Ao < 1311313134 299217 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you believe me or do you believe the book (or do you believe both)? < 1311313188 801336 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm inclined to call Ao the in-setting manifestation of the DM, personally. < 1311313193 761891 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a metadeity. < 1311313378 236767 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so you have your own opinion. That is OK, too. < 1311313488 489631 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I updated the pre-game copies of the character sheets on my computer since both of our character also speak Thesk language too. < 1311313584 523027 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since both of us are escaped slaves from the Thesk island, him a arena slave and me a magical assistance slave. We are saved by a dwarf who says we need to do them a favor or be dead by magic, but we don't even know what that favor is!) < 1311314058 427316 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311315245 265733 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i discovered visualboy advance emulator already contains an interframe filter.. i thought i was clever thinking of interframe filters for emulators the other day but clearly some movement has been made in that direction already < 1311316357 165904 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1311316834 402081 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. In Java you can mess with boxing with reflection. In Scala, a lot of language features use boxing "backstage" < 1311316850 931595 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what kind of tangled messes you can create with that kind of functionality. < 1311317088 130216 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe "functionality" should be in quotes) < 1311317487 88870 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311317733 398356 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1311318110 149649 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311319662 712570 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1311319685 451713 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1311319689 189794 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping < 1311319763 397552 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ping ping here and a ping ping there and... I'm sure there's a song like that. < 1311319766 368400 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311319780 371861 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undoubtedly < 1311319806 338005 :CakeProphet!~adam@h85.9.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311319806 755427 :CakeProphet!~adam@h85.9.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1311319806 953179 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1311321053 370299 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311321171 697784 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1311322966 70859 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311323935 524251 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1311324006 880772 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311324287 293317 :Nihilist1andy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311324441 334837 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1311324465 851683 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311326267 968690 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311328022 759503 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1311328058 381904 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311330598 208833 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311332083 308847 :CakeProphet!~adam@h107.18.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311332088 577049 :CakeProphet!~adam@h107.18.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1311332088 772770 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1311332286 856658 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1311332287 55519 :Nihilist1andy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1311332384 296935 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\x -> join((+) `ap` (+x)) x) [1..] < 1311332385 626020 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> b < 1311332403 305704 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\x -> (+) `ap` (+x) x) [1..] < 1311332404 555994 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (a -> a)) < 1311332404 754133 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `e_11' at... < 1311332422 385127 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (+) `ap` (+3) < 1311332423 644680 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => a -> a < 1311332443 32388 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\x -> (+) `ap` (+x) x x) [1..] < 1311332444 197339 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> a -> a < 1311332501 463908 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl (\x -> (+) `ap` (+x) x x) < 1311332502 184497 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :((+) `ap`) . join (join (+)) < 1311332514 463586 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ( < 1311332515 715123 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) < 1311332525 910071 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (\x -> (+) `ap` (+x) x x) < 1311332527 385858 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> a -> a < 1311332527 584536 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Probable cause: `x' is applied to too few arguments < 1311332527 584712 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the second argument of `(+ x)', namely `x' < 1311332546 474602 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... < 1311332551 142984 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (\x -> (+) `ap` (+3) x x) < 1311332552 759735 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> a -> a < 1311332552 958133 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Probable cause: `x' is applied to too few arguments < 1311332552 958308 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the second argument of `(+ 3)', namely `x' < 1311332584 373703 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :?ty ap (+) (+3) < 1311332585 486047 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => a -> a < 1311332596 34024 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (\x -> (+) `ap` (+3) x) < 1311332597 261464 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a < 1311332610 796664 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (\x -> (+) `ap` (+3) x) [0..] < 1311332612 49707 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (a -> a)) < 1311332612 286424 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `e_130' a... < 1311332616 883782 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now that. < 1311332627 205845 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :?ty ap (+) ((+3) 0) < 1311332628 100068 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => a -> a < 1311332683 788386 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (\x -> (+) `ap` (+x) x) < 1311332685 328994 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a < 1311332690 243761 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl (\x -> (+) `ap` (+x) x) < 1311332690 779315 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :((+) `ap`) . join (+) < 1311332803 882111 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl (\x -> (+) `ap` (x+x)) < 1311332804 159731 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :((+) `ap`) . join (+) < 1311332904 618369 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1311332925 271255 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (+) `ap` 3 < 1311332926 334354 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) < 1311332926 532486 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `... < 1311332943 841370 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (+) `ap` 3 < 1311332945 103219 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => a -> a < 1311332948 993548 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (+) `ap` 3 4 < 1311332950 485538 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => a -> a < 1311332974 136827 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :um okay. < 1311332974 334991 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know whether there has been serious attempts at implementing a rewriter engine for undirected graphs? < 1311333012 454408 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I know of, it doesn't sound impossible at all though. < 1311333034 523988 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weren't there some attempts at Eodermdrome implementation? < 1311333052 838055 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where the design of grrr died off, and that's where eodermdrome is lacking. < 1311333083 909007 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrr was supposed to be "graph reduction renderer", to visually explore undirected (but labeled) graph rewriting < 1311333121 829177 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :visualisation would be even more useful for eodermdrome, though. < 1311333167 134885 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :From March of this year: < 1311333168 106538 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am also totally disappointed at the lack of interest in my plans for an Eodermdrome implementations. < 1311333168 304974 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom__Hoover: The language is cursed: people always just talk about implementing it, but never do. (Did oklopol have an eodermdrome thing or how was it?) < 1311333168 305167 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2008-07-17 19:06:16] < oklopol> i implemented eodermdrome < 1311333209 606605 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1311333268 839057 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague feeling that oklopol's implementation was something incredibly slow. < 1311333291 227987 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised < 1311333294 206489 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p565155612.txt < 1311333301 198073 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, no, that was just a running example. < 1311333302 33733 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Caleskell has instance Num (a -> a), which can make some things confusing < 1311333353 37218 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because basically, you can just brute-force the search for rewritable subnets < 1311333363 565544 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that _is_ incredibly slow. < 1311333373 519335 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p646231414.txt <-- yeah, okay, so it's not quite an implementation of the language yet. < 1311333416 103086 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might be later pastes too. < 1311333429 759603 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that oklopol's not very good at sharing what he does with others. < 1311333509 615138 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do recall wondering whether NAUTY would have been of any use in an Eodermdrome impl. < 1311333539 897963 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it might be that it doesn't help in the subgraph isomorphism problem at all. < 1311333594 784838 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1311333596 921782 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are of course other libraries too. < 1311333614 2128 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esolang community has a great record of wasting work :) < 1311333645 998737 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Googling with the obvious words finds Python bindings for something called "VF" that speaks of subgraphs, isomorphisms, and has functions that start with "match", which is of course a good sign. < 1311333655 333840 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't bothered to read any documentation. < 1311333700 435600 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be almost a comparable effort to find out whether some given program does what I was talking about, as to write the frigging program. < 1311333920 170637 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, seems I _have_ actually documented grrr partially < 1311333926 394862 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll have to add that to the wiki. < 1311334149 740594 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just made a surprisingly good BF Joust program < 1311334179 822708 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm all ears. < 1311334180 416139 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1311334250 140852 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311334257 54852 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust lowgate >>>>>>>>>([[-[++]]]>)*21 < 1311334266 315790 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for Taneb_lowgate: 13.4 < 1311334321 469484 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not mad < 1311334332 197228 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite bad, though < 1311334349 253840 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it have double [[]] ? < 1311334372 253445 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it doesn't commit suicide if it wins < 1311334376 277852 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The [++] loop may get locked if there is an odd cell < 1311334394 426319 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would explain why it loses so often < 1311334459 288732 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: There's that GrGen graph rewriting systemajomatic -- http://www.info.uni-karlsruhe.de/software/grgen/index.php -- I suppose it's more commonly used with directed labeled graphs, but the feature list seems to suggest the edges can be undirected too. I don't know the details of the pattern-matching/rewriting language it uses though. < 1311334480 359972 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll translate my python system into JavaScript < 1311334490 383857 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's faster < 1311334502 751153 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, I'll learn C and translate it into that < 1311334505 256473 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I just checked out NAUTY, and it is only partially applicable < 1311334517 944947 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because IIUC it does not search for subgraphs < 1311334537 254110 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then my genetic program will RUE THE DAY < 1311334538 8931 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brute-forcing subgraphs then checking for graph isomorphism is even worse < 1311334551 234960 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: Right. The VF library seems rather more applicable, but the website for that seems to be a bit down. < 1311334581 322001 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the website has a difficult life situation :( < 1311334584 54481 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: That "fizzie_evo_4" on the hill has also been evolvamated. (Well, for some values of, anyway.) < 1311334743 596055 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :VFlib seems to be a library of _graphs_ :) < 1311334800 766513 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's just misleading body text. < 1311334820 785444 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, seems so. < 1311334856 228726 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=840896 describes what they use. < 1311334867 746618 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The library itself lives in some .it address that doesn't want to speak to me. < 1311334883 278997 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Italy, maybe it's on strike. (Who said the art of stereotypisms is dead?) < 1311334907 490971 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~algorith/implement/vflib/distrib/ < 1311334960 22589 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would involve untarballing a tarball to see what it has eaten, far too much work. < 1311334994 249900 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also http://www710.univ-lyon1.fr/~csolnon/LAD.html < 1311335001 348736 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it has the library and some documentation. But you need not bother, this was my quest originally anyway :) < 1311335039 150672 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAD's based on a later-published algorithm than VF, so it's unambiguously better. < 1311335054 313230 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, they wouldn't have gotten it published if it were worse, right?) < 1311335086 358506 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAD seems good, on the surface, at least :) < 1311335107 592148 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do benchmark against VF. :p < 1311335150 519158 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAD seems to be really minimalistic, too. < 1311335162 503372 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it could be rather easy to extend. < 1311335178 867924 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311335444 256295 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it might not make sense to build a graph rewriting implementation on pure static subgraph isomorphism matcher, either < 1311335472 961033 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because different rewritings can fire others, and there's much room for optimisation there < 1311335483 904716 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it's a good starting point anyway. < 1311335585 731150 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. Seems LAD's algorithm might not be applicable to graph patterns where there are constraints that some edges _not_ exist < 1311335596 626990 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the case of eodermdrome "closed" nodes < 1311336056 301829 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a lot more interesting that I'd thought :) < 1311336306 414287 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, Eodermdrome matching is sort of between finding an isomorphic subgraph and an isomorphic induced subgraph. < 1311336322 18106 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311336334 659367 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the matching rules for eodermdrome are smart indeed < 1311336373 252136 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very nifty way to specify _two_ kinds of constraints on the graph. < 1311336394 468414 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, the existence of some arcs, and the absence of others < 1311336413 667924 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :while still being able to leave the existence of some arcs as "don't care" < 1311336485 779256 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also very "intuitive" how to do the replacement, with the open nodes being the ones that are used to "hang" the new graph in place to the larger state graph. < 1311336527 174220 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is super-perplexing < 1311336532 873762 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1311336544 245194 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is caching something somewhere, and i have no idea where it's happening and how to turn it off < 1311336575 595053 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: true, although the rules make it impossible to disconnect arbitrary subgraphs < 1311336605 178995 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in order to leave a node open, you have to mention it on both sides < 1311336627 836327 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in order to mention two nodes on RHS, you have to connect them directly or indirectly < 1311336696 765668 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anytime you want to disconnect a node from some other node, you have to close it - and that means it cannot have a subgraph behind it < 1311336751 886146 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but effectively, the rules of eodermdrome just enforce that the rewrite rules never even produce disjoint graphs. < 1311336784 462801 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: reload(module)? < 1311337226 145723 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, except uwsgi doesn't reload the module on every refresh :p < 1311337232 783179 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've fixed it tho < 1311337772 303406 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1311338193 816428 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep typing undefined as underfined < 1311338209 227999 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got an error message: underfined is not defined < 1311338222 128824 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was ironic until I realised my typo < 1311338245 238240 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl scanl f a = map (foldl f a) . inits < 1311338246 220359 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :scanl = flip flip inits . (((.) . map) .) . foldl < 1311338735 593801 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've translated my BFJoust interpreter to JavaScript < 1311338824 65227 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you do such a th--oh, cool. < 1311338995 681423 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Perl was the earliest language in the C family to have map and filter operators. < 1311339009 628340 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on when they were added. < 1311340147 369679 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs < 1311340148 413217 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :map = fix (flip flip tail . (ap .) . flip flip head . ((.) .) . liftM2 flip (((.) . (:)) .)) < 1311340195 161710 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl map f ls = case ls of [] -> []; (x:xs) -> f x : map f xs < 1311340196 134594 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 26): < 1311340196 412738 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ">" or "-" < 1311340196 610741 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input < 1311340851 965271 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone out there actually use F#? < 1311340858 844582 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you guys ever used F#? < 1311340960 58499 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know any F# users, no. < 1311341557 415013 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :nmcblanket < 1311341573 262487 :nmcblanket!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1311341610 479150 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to wikipedia it is a variant of ML < 1311341722 770633 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1311341866 982907 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other sort of algebraic data type mentioned, "discriminated unions" (type-safe versions of C unions), can be defined to hold a value of any of a pre-defined type. < 1311341879 362679 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does Microsoft have to rename everything terribly. < 1311341912 20411 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1311341915 90546 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually heard someone use the term "managed language" in a conversation recently. < 1311341973 619144 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm pretty sure just means that it runs on a virtual machine and is bytecode compiled. < 1311341993 92077 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some reason Microsoft has to define these new names for things and use those instead, as though it is different somehow. < 1311342189 77496 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The managed/unmanaged distinction is theirs, yes. < 1311342329 163216 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this person said they do not like managed languages. I ask them what they thought that meant < 1311342344 331 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they said it means that it has "hidden code" such as garbage collectors. < 1311342345 333260 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I understand it, managed code is anything represented in the CIL bytecode, though the runtime does not actually run that, it native-code compiles it. I guess it counts as a form of JIT. < 1311342349 402299 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was like... are you serious? < 1311342402 153469 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was spoken in the context of not liking managed languages. So in essence he was saying he doesn't like garbage collection or virtual machines. < 1311342424 912102 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :infuriating, but oh well. < 1311342433 640214 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess that's his prerogative? < 1311342437 495197 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1311342446 581352 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it is based on stupidity... < 1311342477 223710 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked him if he had any problem with using libraries, since this is "hidden code that could potentially cause bugs not in your own code" < 1311342481 964736 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was ambivalent. < 1311342495 361399 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there are still happy assembly coders who don't like any safety features either. < 1311342530 966937 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the idea that using a garbage collector will somehow result in all of these bugs that you have no control over < 1311342538 645538 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a silly one. < 1311342550 950661 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought it was about the performance issue. < 1311342558 935523 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. hidden code. < 1311342567 735126 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :causes bugs. < 1311342588 438920 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you "aren't new to programming" then manual memory management is practically bugfree.... < 1311342589 611127 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just saying "hidden code" might equally well mean performance overhead. But I guess you were there. < 1311342597 776423 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that is silly. < 1311342621 194277 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I was saying that manual memory management will result in /more/ bugs than using a well-tested garbage collector., < 1311342684 186568 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and his rebuttal was that experienced programmers don't have to worry about that. < 1311342687 149870 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something. < 1311342698 816253 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. I am infuriated. :P I should stop remembering this conversation. < 1311342771 432579 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't wait to interact with these people in a work environment. < 1311342794 75261 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will hate me because I will be all snobby about everything. :P < 1311342805 444025 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST WAIT. < 1311342813 170617 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few years from now. < 1311342817 844145 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I have graduated. < 1311342889 52487 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what language I will be programming in when I get a job. My money is on Java or C# if it's a software company. Or Javascript, PHP, Python if it's web programming. < 1311342926 236335 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :People do serious web-things in quite a plethora of languages nowadays. < 1311342929 529351 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a lot of possibilities, these are just common languages for those things. < 1311342932 819841 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1311342947 872217 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby or even Perl is a possibility for web programming. < 1311342969 156436 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ActionScript for sure < 1311343031 80628 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once found a programming gig for SBCL (Lisp) < 1311343053 525469 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't have any qualifications for it, unfortunately. < 1311343073 26392 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking forward to mind-numbing layers of parentheses. < 1311343097 283055 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSH Communications famously (well, not quite) mentioned they use Scheme a lot in one of their job ads. < 1311343105 28042 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in possibly the oldest language that is still in common use. < 1311343135 64899 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the form of dialects, granted. < 1311343284 606301 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311343299 358711 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once got a summer job at Nokia (well, their research side) for knowing Perl. Or maybe Befunge. < 1311343325 62856 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is what they wanted done, but esolangs were discussed quite a lot at the interview. < 1311343325 861176 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, nice. < 1311343335 67564 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should list my esolangs then. :) < 1311343364 247381 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might list Lisp even though I don't really know it, lol. < 1311343381 360773 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning I don't comfortably know a common dialects idioms. < 1311343456 999726 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I read SICP, so that counts for something. :P < 1311343501 665523 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: did they care about having any kind of work experience with Perl, or was just knowing Perl enough? < 1311343563 596256 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they wanted someone who knew Perl, not just knew about Perl. But certainly no Microsoft Certified Perl Expert qualifications. < 1311343595 619731 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I'm just wondering how they verified such things. < 1311343636 114284 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :By asking me, basically. < 1311343651 850330 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, cool. < 1311343660 471988 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is promising. < 1311343665 299974 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was no Perl quiz or anything, I mean. They just asked me how well I knew it. < 1311343674 655525 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it means I can use knowledge of multiple languages in a job interview as an advantage. < 1311343674 853635 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I had to formulate some sort of an answer. < 1311343691 748706 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/1023982 oh god I'm gonna barf. < 1311343693 645508 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently fizzie has had too many fried beans today < 1311343769 497751 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0722/oslo.html < 1311343770 907035 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elizacat: what's wrong with that? < 1311343776 458218 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks perfectly reasonable to me. < 1311343782 594053 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been an explostion in Oslo. < 1311343798 604243 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :a class with lambdas < 1311343802 289824 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one really just made me puke < 1311343805 878298 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever does that needs to be killed < 1311343814 756600 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that lambdas are bad < 1311343820 1798 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't use them like THAT < 1311343821 764749 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that Python's lambdas are bad. < 1311343836 235049 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find lambdas very useful outside of functional programming languages < 1311343836 652082 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1311343854 53370 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, when you can add multiple statements to it < 1311343855 631284 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is. < 1311343859 85653 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :python's lambdas aren't bad, they're just useless < 1311343869 829821 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is a subset of "bad" < 1311343879 466151 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :useless is bad. < 1311343879 744381 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_, yet everyone whines when they are proposed for removal... :p < 1311343892 994856 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would much rather like anonymous functions < 1311343900 43788 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody uses lambdas < 1311343924 151660 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, anonymous functions are lambdas technically. this is what I'm referring to. < 1311343951 770778 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Python has a terrible way of delimiting blocks and so anonymous functions are syntactically difficult. < 1311344068 889726 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print map {s/a/b/g;s/c/d/g;} "abcdefg" < 1311344069 933486 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modification of a read-only value attempted at /tmp/input.11021 line 1. < 1311344112 399604 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1311344125 284792 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print map {s/a/b/gr . s/c/d/gr;} "abcdefg" < 1311344125 741127 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bareword found where operator expected at /tmp/input.11157 line 1, near "s/a/b/gr" < 1311344172 332764 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out I apparently don't know Perl < 1311344178 993576 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though that's what I've been programming in for the past few months. < 1311344308 305710 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyways, point to be made is: Perl has anonymous subroutines. people use them. < 1311344330 398872 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole "lambdas are bad style" thing in Python is probably a result of lambdas looking ugly and being highly constrained in Python. < 1311344405 552748 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, the lambda-only class definition actually doesn't look too bad. It's kind of fun to see how you could write a class functionally in Python. < 1311344477 920856 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311344521 474655 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, not in python < 1311344541 228392 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, a lambda is an expression, in python a function can be multiple expressions, unlike in many languages that have lambdas < 1311344554 869265 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yes, I know how it works in Python. < 1311344559 981350 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because python is descriptive rather than declarative < 1311344571 942551 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather prescriptive < 1311344578 524938 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...imperitive? < 1311344618 756576 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you describe computations in Python by how they "should" work < 1311344620 425518 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think "imperative" does not focus on the important aspect of the difference between so called "imperative" languages and so called "functional" langauges < 1311344624 928811 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe you do that in all languages. I don't know. < 1311344639 588908 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can perfectly well say that python is an imperative, functional language < 1311344653 573122 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's not really all that functional. < 1311344665 70751 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional means a function is a first class object < 1311344671 653777 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it is, because you can manipulate functions < 1311344673 43194 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has first-class functions. that's pretty much the extent of it. < 1311344688 771863 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i rather like to use "declarative" for what people call "functional" because you can say that the nature of those languages is that they say what things are, rather than how to build them < 1311344693 367684 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not really a functional paradigm. but sure, it's functional. < 1311344701 579251 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the problem < 1311344707 58859 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i say "declarative" instead < 1311344708 998469 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose. < 1311344715 277603 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense. < 1311344735 307686 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's why i call "imperative" prescriptive, because it prescribes how to get something < 1311344735 881300 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think "has first class functions" is a very flimsy definition of a functional language. < 1311344755 425879 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd word your concern differently < 1311344756 615477 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really what I connotate from the word functional. < 1311344767 58704 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"functional" is a very flimsy description of haskell, erlang, ocaml and lisp < 1311344807 657093 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has first-class function pointers. is it functional? :P < 1311344821 446705 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know C well enough to answer that question < 1311344835 287891 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write a map in C, it would just need an extra length parameter. < 1311344867 676755 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it wouldn't be declarative < 1311344908 843960 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write it recursively if that's what you mean. < 1311344926 841287 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't declare the map function as its first argument applied to the head of the second, plus map applied to the first argument and tail of the second < 1311344955 318310 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but that's unnatural for the language, and wrong, because it would probably give you a stack overflow < 1311344973 105451 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :without adding several more parameters it would also be in-place. < 1311345007 365396 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack overflow depends on the length of the array and the size of the call stack of course. < 1311345013 571268 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311345024 219434 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, if your recursion would just mean you pass the recursed function the pointer+1, then you're again iterating < 1311345038 887219 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not really declarative < 1311345043 177752 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but by your very weak definition of functional, C is functional. < 1311345051 427701 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1311345055 119150 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i wouldn't be surprised? < 1311345058 116539 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not declarative (aka what I consider functional to mean) < 1311345063 872388 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in C you can have SMC < 1311345076 791561 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can create, modify, append, concatenate, and remove functions < 1311345086 261809 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can copy and overwrite them < 1311345103 977529 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to that extent, C is very much functional < 1311345120 388250 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has even features no other languages have such as concatenation of function bodies < 1311345149 90659 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't really see the distinction between incrementing a pointer recursively as "iterating" and getting the head and tail of a linked list as being "declarative" < 1311345191 11427 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's think of it as an index, rather than a pointer, that starts at 0, then it's 1, 2, and so on < 1311345214 842285 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this index gives you, at any point, information about the global structure < 1311345240 113891 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells the body of the function "at this point, you are at the 60th element" < 1311345243 987925 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is iteration < 1311345245 419954 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really. < 1311345254 191005 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't go back to the 0th element from a recursive call. < 1311345266 643099 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :with head/tail you can't < 1311345284 584941 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't know where you are - your context always assumes that what you're passed is the whole thing < 1311345286 268723 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, also with recursive pointer increments and a length parameter, you cannot deduce where the start of the list is. < 1311345296 418995 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :excuse me, array. < 1311345299 328509 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't you? < 1311345317 202106 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not just an index, you can't just set it back to 0 < 1311345326 414835 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have no other information to get you back to the original index. < 1311345340 114476 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the length parameter won't help you. < 1311345356 359585 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's what i was talking about < 1311345357 561856 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :an index < 1311345361 991219 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :my function is something like f(i, list, func) { list[i] = func(list[i]); f(i++, list, func); } < 1311345380 977341 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a reference to a location in memory, that I am shifting forward one location each recursive iteration. < 1311345396 653745 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar to how a linked list works, but contiguous in memory. < 1311345416 897319 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, if you're given a pointer, then it would be f(start, size, list, func) { list[start] = func(list[start]); f(start+size, size, list, func); } < 1311345423 167558 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i know what you mean < 1311345457 559438 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same thing basically, that if the expressions have no side effects, then what you do in the recursion does not matter. The distinction between iteration and recursion is meaningless because they are equivalent. < 1311345464 16091 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in what i just wrote you're still describing HOW to do something, instead of what you are getting < 1311345481 70780 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're describing the action of going form list to map(list, func) < 1311345520 583964 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, you are describing the structure of map list func and you are describing it with the nouns "map", "list" and "func" < 1311345580 803460 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it's that in a prescriptive language basically you have nouns and verbs, in a declarative language you have no verbs < 1311345609 184382 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't "do to " < 1311345635 493112 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use verbs all the time in Haskell. < 1311345638 347518 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead you say " is an " < 1311345646 354198 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give me an example? < 1311345649 443493 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :map... < 1311345656 440307 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :map f over list < 1311345660 815569 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a command. < 1311345664 80353 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fold as well < 1311345665 51275 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's just a way to read it < 1311345672 268881 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, as is your definition of nouns and verbs... < 1311345716 966843 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say, map paintRed fence = "a fence which is red" < 1311345729 116606 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would say map paintRed fence = "a fence which has been painted red" < 1311345750 714021 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose. I'm just saying a function is very much like a verb. < 1311345766 637701 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i wouldn't say so < 1311345774 60859 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say a function is just a parametrized value < 1311345794 751835 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you define the function, you *declare* what it is < 1311345800 393968 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you use it, you are using it like a verb. < 1311345813 216706 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really - when you use the function, you declare what the output is < 1311345820 279605 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :y = f x < 1311345838 789091 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i declare y to be an x-ish f < 1311345852 648187 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"y is an f of subtype x" < 1311345858 474846 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just completely arbitrary. < 1311345866 314981 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to perspective. < 1311345872 689197 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (+1) [1..] < 1311345884 114555 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey computer, map this function over this list" < 1311345891 297250 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a list of 1, 2, .. incremented by one" < 1311345913 427387 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "incremented by" is an adverb < 1311345922 350768 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311345938 227591 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so map isn't a verb, it's "a list of" :P < 1311345940 66088 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a nount < 1311345941 873193 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it. < 1311345959 439203 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's just what i think when i see map (+1) [1..] < 1311345972 7101 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I say functions are like verbs is because they take arguments < 1311345978 285606 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar to how language verbs have subjects and objects. < 1311345996 578283 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nouns are more like the constants. < 1311346025 472672 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this discussion resonates quite a lot with what i thought when i first started studying mathematics at the university and first started hearing how people actually talk about mathematical objects at work < 1311346034 638659 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjectives and adverbs are also like functions in that they augment or modify existing things (aka their argument) < 1311346051 950571 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was always a case of "function f is ...", never a case of "to get the value of function f, you do ..." < 1311346066 115037 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but functions /do/ things. < 1311346069 447953 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they compute < 1311346076 321362 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i differ < 1311346076 737975 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you declare them, by stating what they are, yes. < 1311346101 434297 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function in mathematics is a constant value, with an argument, which is applied via the substitution principle < 1311346122 737438 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say you have your value q = 1+2 < 1311346168 88551 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can have your value q(x) = 1+x, where what you do is you first take say q(100), then you expand it to 1+x, and then you substitute x := 100 < 1311346169 304564 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a function is also an abstraction of a computation. It maps one set of values to another set. < 1311346187 972154 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but a map is a static object < 1311346192 583759 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't change, move, or run < 1311346195 135856 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just is there < 1311346198 119927 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...sure. < 1311346214 154939 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function exists already in Functions < 1311346223 643896 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functions is the set of all functions. :p < 1311346235 321756 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying you describe functions by saying what they do. I'm saying that functions themselves describe an action. < 1311346252 927524 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a very important notion in mathematics that mathematical objects do not get created, they get discovered < 1311346259 789543 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've been there all the time, behind your back < 1311346288 348226 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in this way, the \Gamma function wasn't discovered, it was described < 1311346290 552192 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a philosphical point I don't think I necessarily agree with. At least not for every mathematical object. < 1311346303 422614 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1311346311 268478 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it wasn't created, it was described < 1311346315 462417 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me it's just a system. it's arbitrary in its man-made rules. < 1311346322 691993 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you name a mathematical object which was *created*? < 1311346333 187123 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't create concepts. < 1311346352 740631 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you said you don't agree and that some objects were created < 1311346362 598214 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you were referring to something else? < 1311346401 298262 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't believe they are discovered. As if they had existed this whole time. I believe they are constructed at which point they become defined. I don't think nature cares about our abstractions. < 1311346422 257347 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just describe what already existed in nature with concepts we create over time. < 1311346428 25365 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... I suppose I am saying they are created. < 1311346492 787231 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, instead i see it this way.. imagine you're in a huge town where you've never been, everyone speaks a language you don't know < 1311346507 4942 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start out at some point and there are trees and you can punch them < 1311346524 863027 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can go to places, and see new things < 1311346531 249392 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they do not have to correspond to anything that actually exists. I could devise a completely arbitrary set of rules. would I have simply discovered that mathematical system or did I create it artificially? < 1311346534 203928 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you remember the path to those things, that's your definition < 1311346544 934718 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, those things were there before you have defined them < 1311346546 93785 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if I discovered it, where was it hiding all of this time? :P < 1311346558 928515 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why are you on that island first of all? < 1311346571 966367 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what is your business there sir? < 1311346582 510152 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, I wasn't referring to your metaphor, actually. < 1311346627 396594 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, your set of rules is the pathway in your mental considerations of mathematics < 1311346644 639784 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lets you arrive at the concept of that mathematical system < 1311346655 405221 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was there, you just haven't ever taken this path before < 1311346697 754320 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems somewhat arrogant to say that mathematics, which is inherently a human conception, somehow /is/ the innate properties of the universe, and not merely an artificial description. < 1311346722 259921 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but mathematics has nothing to do with the universe < 1311346729 238303 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's completely disconnected < 1311346745 923362 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to assign cosmical properties to mathematical objects is called physics < 1311346759 659395 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they only say that the mathematics in question are a model, not that they're the real thing < 1311346762 156630 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I kind of associate existence with being a part of the universe.. < 1311346784 282981 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically what you are saying to me is that you can discover mathematical objects, but they don't really exist. < 1311346786 478701 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no physicist will tell you that the string theory is the nature of the universe < 1311346811 962290 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, no < 1311346817 174675 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, existence is a tricky thing. < 1311346836 724236 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying that mathematical objects exist, and that they always have, and that they are not assigned to any physical objects. < 1311346842 687302 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1311346856 369375 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :physical in the meaning of "tangible" < 1311346886 722973 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideas exist, certainly. But how do you discover ideas? < 1311346899 842559 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they must be made by an intelligence being at some point. < 1311346910 252769 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*intelligent < 1311346942 670903 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't give me that platonic ideal crap :P ) < 1311346943 366298 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say that definitions can be made < 1311346950 84098 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might have been no definition of the idea < 1311346959 885309 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means the idea was outside of your holographic bubble < 1311346979 651647 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can create a definition, by which you arrive at the concept < 1311346997 710932 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the creation of the definition is a secondary concern, it's a means to an end: the concept < 1311347011 610027 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I just find it strange to thing that the idea of freedom of speech existed before any intelligent life thought it up. < 1311347011 888283 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concept, in itself, is what interests us, not the definition of it < 1311347025 392525 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/thing/think < 1311347048 838620 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice how even in english you can "have" an idea, but not "create" an idea < 1311347055 6454 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have it, meaning you grasp it < 1311347062 859597 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in your hand < 1311347085 989189 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :before, it was not available < 1311347096 12599 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like a fruit high up on a tree < 1311347113 993120 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I can understand all of that. I just don't believe there's much distinction then, really. < 1311347123 868467 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there is < 1311347131 85126 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we are talking about is practically the same. because an idea might as well not exist until it is available to us. < 1311347142 433250 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :because look at it: the definition of an idea is secondary to the idea itself, would you agree? < 1311347145 190135 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... whether ot not it existed before someone thought of it is somewhat irrelevant. < 1311347152 585282 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the definition being our action of discovering the idea < 1311347203 102871 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. This is just all too human-centered (or intelligence-centered, if you prefer) to really convince me that these things existed since the dawn of time. < 1311347224 812035 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but look at it this way < 1311347235 189971 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the time interval known as a second has existed before humanity < 1311347249 484393 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be very egoistic to think that seconds have not existed before humans described them < 1311347269 714747 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interval of time existed sure, but seconds as an idea didn't. < 1311347272 92024 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were intervals of time of length one second before humanity! < 1311347277 924696 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, anyways < 1311347307 228515 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'm trying to say is that the difference between the idea and definition is similar to the difference between declarative and prescriptive definitions < 1311347325 501370 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... guess? < 1311347329 536640 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea :: definition == declarative definition :: prescriptive definition < 1311347340 614044 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a prescriptive definition is that one step further from the idea < 1311347364 782957 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will write a language that goes one step closer than declarative! < 1311347378 121327 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be neat < 1311347381 711054 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what that would be < 1311347382 127650 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the ideas just exist without definition or something. < 1311347392 260827 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic. < 1311347404 593434 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or impossible probably. < 1311347425 599302 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible magic < 1311347426 244800 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, can I be an agnostic on the matter? < 1311347435 962410 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can see that a prescriptive definition could be improved < 1311347443 670948 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what the next step would be < 1311347474 585418 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in prescriptive definitions, imo, we have verbs, nouns, and adjectives from which we make those definitions < 1311347476 214289 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't know if the idea existed before the point of grasping because it was not known to us before that point. < 1311347487 213142 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in declarative definitions we seem to have nouns and adjectives < 1311347493 219187 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we do with just adjectives? < 1311347519 856895 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think natural language makes a very good metaphor for programming languages. < 1311347521 906207 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i say "x is five-element, rising, starting-with-one"? < 1311347535 8992 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that be a definition for [1, ... 5]? < 1311347541 19014 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the worst ideas in Perl are based on natural language metaphor < 1311347561 216628 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, they're comparable. < 1311347572 600678 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sentences cannot have as deep of a structure as a program expression. < 1311347587 12428 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you call this a "descriptive language"? < 1311347589 834245 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :do the distinction between verbs and adjectives and adverbs as separate modifiers becomes more irrelevant. < 1311347606 106761 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :descriptive, imperitive, or interrogative < 1311347628 540699 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean this "adjectives only" language < 1311347632 477074 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1311347633 564291 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it be called "descriptive"? < 1311347641 664283 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, well, I would call any language descriptive. < 1311347648 108910 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is what language is for. < 1311347661 912926 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really, if you define things with adjectives, you define everything by describing it, right? < 1311347683 670862 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I can't really imagine how you would not describe something in a language. < 1311347690 821432 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I write an algorithm in C without describing it in some way? < 1311347737 450320 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you construct things < 1311347739 417572 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By not using any comments? < 1311347748 559868 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C you basically construct things < 1311347750 366524 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And obfuscating it loads? < 1311347757 238943 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I describe those constructions. < 1311347767 412075 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with elements of a language. < 1311347772 539869 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that's on meta-level to the language < 1311347776 259117 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't mix those up < 1311347809 819138 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C you say "take some flour, some eggs, some water, and baking powder, mix them together, and you have dough" < 1311347822 881117 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell you say "dough is a micture of flour, eggs, water, and baking powder" < 1311347830 341620 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you describe the steps. functions are descriptions of algorithms. < 1311347839 900781 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't describe the steps on haskell < 1311347847 148363 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, you describe what it is. < 1311347891 859118 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically what I am saying is that all languages are descriptive. You cannot have a language that does not describe something. < 1311347893 668859 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not with dough, but with e.g. a milk shake it's not important if you first put the strawberries, the milk, or the sugar in the mixer < 1311347918 932152 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a chocolate milkshake < 1311347947 455837 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that you don't need to be told the consequence of actions of putthing those things in the shaker < 1311347950 560689 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, heh < 1311347957 312289 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, yes, on a meta-level you're right, but you're again talking in terms of the meta-language, not the language itself < 1311347964 759935 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, C describes actions.. < 1311347973 435375 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the language itself is actions. < 1311347987 767559 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1311347993 379103 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a PROGRAM in C is actions < 1311347997 380697 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language is a...... description of actions. < 1311347998 634280 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is the description of those actions < 1311348002 60915 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ok < 1311348009 391614 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good, we have converged there nicely < 1311348022 932293 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a haskell program is a declaration of objects < 1311348031 19715 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or items < 1311348038 505240 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The declarations are describtions < 1311348055 642839 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i wouldn't say so. < 1311348067 163315 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a cookie dough recipe a description of a ready cookie? < 1311348074 219870 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing with declarative programming languages is that they still semantically perform computations < 1311348075 946723 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much < 1311348077 853581 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1311348080 138862 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I often prefer to think in this way when I am writing in them. < 1311348083 214132 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a description of how to make a cookie < 1311348090 786443 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311348096 321150 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's the cookie that interests us < 1311348097 657726 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still a description < 1311348124 882356 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, you define cookie as "take dough igredients, put in dish one by one, stir, put on pan, bake in 180 degrees for 1 hour" < 1311348132 607117 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably a very wrong recipe < 1311348150 382073 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have any chocolate chips < 1311348167 31557 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes my approach is flawed. For example, using the approach of asking "how do I get the fibonacci sequence in Haskell", I would never think of the this definition < 1311348172 601512 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, you define cookie as "a heat-treated mixture of dough ingredients" < 1311348179 538551 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tails fibs) < 1311348187 295894 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With chocolate chips < 1311348188 129966 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er *tail < 1311348213 858038 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, i'm not even debating the practicality of those families of languages < 1311348216 660536 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, think about this < 1311348224 559747 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I wasn't even debating with those statements. :P < 1311348232 139859 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in prescriptive and declarative languages, you *start out with something* < 1311348256 806519 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that you have to have items, and from these items new items are generated < 1311348257 459302 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, can't make something from nothing. :P < 1311348264 836460 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather: new items are defined in relation from old items < 1311348266 943221 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you sure can < 1311348297 344271 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of similar to a definition of a geometric complex < 1311348302 660687 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the right word? < 1311348311 973706 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me quickly google < 1311348313 337779 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a... building? < 1311348317 810474 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean like geometric series? < 1311348325 767108 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he means like a pentagon < 1311348338 937905 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me "geometric complex" means a building. lol < 1311348351 951238 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :geometric structure? geometric object? geometric construction? < 1311348360 472635 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last one sounds right < 1311348364 340566 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are all pretty synonymy < 1311348370 152445 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with complex. except object. < 1311348376 794709 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or better yet < 1311348380 488173 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's talk about just sets < 1311348387 729133 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics loves sets. < 1311348390 168207 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a convex set is simple to describe < 1311348390 830354 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun. < 1311348408 259427 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a convex set is the intersection of convex sets < 1311348424 610183 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a convex geometrical complex is even simpler to describe < 1311348432 888053 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an intersection of half-spaces < 1311348458 490286 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a half-space is a set where on one side of a surface it's full, and on the other side it's empty < 1311348458 768850 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you need to define certain sets as convex sets in order to actuall have any convex sets? < 1311348476 213250 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you make a convex geometrical complex by taking a block of wood, and lopping off bits in straight cuts < 1311348489 723100 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, you don't need to < 1311348493 212072 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just an example < 1311348526 255127 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the definition is recursive. I don't see how it could apply to anything if there's nothing that is innately convex. < 1311348538 449207 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1311348541 968035 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" a convex set is the intersection of convex sets" <<< what :D < 1311348542 166243 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's declarative < 1311348562 418920 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but... it declares nothing. < 1311348579 142374 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true for any family of sets < 1311348602 647013 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT FOR CONCAVE SETS, SUCKER < 1311348609 817873 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is {1,2,3} a convex set? What are the convex sets it is an intersection of, and how are those sets convex? < 1311348628 314507 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, yeah, that was not a definition, it was just a picture i used < 1311348636 536130 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a visualization < 1311348644 116656 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the convex geometrical complex < 1311348650 482589 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so it's just a property of convex sets and not the definition. < 1311348653 432963 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's defined as an intersection of half-spaces < 1311348685 954632 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have defined half-spaces declaratively, and i have defined convex geometrical complexes declaratively < 1311348696 36998 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the point again? :P < 1311348700 803594 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well here's the thing < 1311348739 937824 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also define convex sets like this. it's a bit more complicated, but you define some starting sets, and then you can create all convex sets from them. < 1311348747 414493 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1311348752 940989 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also define convex sets like this: < 1311348771 588333 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a convex set is a set which is convex < 1311348776 649689 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning, it has the property of convexity < 1311348782 257935 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311348784 341185 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a test for the property of convexity looks like this: < 1311348790 769393 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a true statement is a statement that is true. < 1311348812 638534 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any two points of the set, create a line segment between those two points. if the line segment is a subset of the set in question, then that set is convex. < 1311348828 420565 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has to hold for all pairs of points. < 1311348837 821972 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wording there isn't perfect :) < 1311348856 71860 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand that it looks banal right now < 1311348869 738746 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but once you start adding more and more adjectives you can e.g. define a torus, a sphere, and so on < 1311348884 487344 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my perfectionistic brain is formulating all kinds of nasty inconsistencies in your terribly non-rigorous definition. < 1311348890 394137 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not really) < 1311348950 61578 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ball is a set which is open and which has the property of neighbourhood, meaning that all points are within a neighbourhood to a special point called the center < 1311348978 857184 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" NOT FOR CONCAVE SETS, SUCKER" <<< a concave set is the intersection of concave sets, but i guess you meant convex sets are closed under intersection? so are the finite sets. < 1311348991 337824 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ice cream is delicious < 1311348999 183167 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :however i am still starting with the definition of "set" < 1311349001 8329 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT! < 1311349016 227349 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mathematics, you can lead everything back to the definition of a set < 1311349043 651263 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that if you start out with any definition, it turns out it's just a bunch of sets glued together in special ways. < 1311349053 658034 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "set" is the Ur-Element < 1311349065 155915 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what the whole world is made out of, in mathematics < 1311349091 16578 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in computer languages you have many non-equal Ur-Elements < 1311349091 896443 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, turns out stuff is just groups of stuff. < 1311349106 382952 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have functions, integers, floats, etc < 1311349156 6782 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, what i think i'm saying is that in a declarative language you define things with other things < 1311349156 816967 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeglobs, don't forget those. < 1311349171 421555 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas in a descriptive language, you would define things without other things < 1311349188 526752 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if that's a good idea at all < 1311349195 790395 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fiboncci sequence is...... < 1311349204 687213 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, what do I say now? < 1311349209 711491 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, good question < 1311349233 48896 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's look at it differently < 1311349248 881667 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's talk about.. cars < 1311349344 847682 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C you'd say to get a maserati GT you'd take a ferrari 430, you'd then change the body work, and then you'd furnish it with a nice interior < 1311349393 110415 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, you'd say a maserati gt is a ferrari 430 - bodywork - interior + new body work + new interior < 1311349407 552801 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually in C a masterati GT is just a bunch of pointers. < 1311349418 333615 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bytes. < 1311349440 240780 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a descriptive language, you'd say a maserati gt is a car which is this and this long, it's this and this high, its dimensions are this and that, and its parts are made out of the following materials < 1311349465 493558 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, you have just defined a maserati GT without ever knowing that there's something called a ferrari 430 < 1311349492 27048 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to program descriptively is to program declaratively in a roundabout way. < 1311349493 942411 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, if your description is detailed enough, you will have defined a car which requires what we know as the ferrari 430 engine < 1311349499 992443 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not really < 1311349512 191351 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can describe things imprecisely or more precisely < 1311349533 663900 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say "a ball is a set with the property of neighborhood" < 1311349548 453104 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for most things, this will fit well enough < 1311349565 850015 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, for a real ball, d(B) = {} < 1311349574 18231 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas for our imprecise ball, d(B) = S < 1311349602 681184 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, that's not really important if you're just using balls to, say, define what a 3-dimensional object is < 1311349629 389011 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's an improvement over declarative languages < 1311349676 519270 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a different example < 1311349686 840415 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :persons < 1311349693 115675 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :people :) < 1311349736 647246 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1311349747 38195 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can say in C "to construct Joe, you take Chandler's sperm, and Monica's egg, you fertilize it, you grow the fetus in a womb, and then you let it mature for 30 years and you have Joe" < 1311349762 882155 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell you can say "Joe is the son of Chandler and Monica" < 1311349802 774630 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a descriptive language you would say "Joe has medium-short dark hair, black eyes, of italian descent, is 30 years old, slightly overweight, and likes sandwiches" < 1311349909 567354 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (`replicateM` "+-[]<>.,") >>= [0..] < 1311349943 552875 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in brainfuck, you'd say one of the strings that this Haskell program produces < 1311349951 706656 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't really sure how to work that in English so I did that instead. < 1311349961 700434 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+is Joe < 1311350037 483324 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure how that is related. < 1311350046 368376 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying it's unrelated, i just can't parse this. < 1311350267 14048 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311350446 436643 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i explain well what "descriptive" is? < 1311350537 675568 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be wrong to improve other's BF Joust programs and submit them to EgoJoust as my own? < 1311350559 996828 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it would be cool < 1311350569 707149 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly NICK :FireFly < 1311350582 303413 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it was only an extremely minor improvement? < 1311350593 118714 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVEN MORE SO. < 1311350594 756684 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311350600 762262 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I'm feeling to guilty. < 1311350617 620823 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly? I improved your BF Joust program "meh" < 1311350633 211744 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1311350643 721114 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want it? < 1311350653 158701 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, why not < 1311350666 195309 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"->(+>->)*4([-]>)*21" < 1311350681 147156 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your original stopped just short of the finish on the longest tape length < 1311350688 210705 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311351071 274898 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You going to submit that, or can I? < 1311351129 573583 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well SOMEONE submit it already :\ < 1311351139 711345 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about the children < 1311351166 40471 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust fireflys_meh_improved ->(+>->)*4([-]>)*21 < 1311351168 677317 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for Taneb_fireflys_meh_improved: 20.6 < 1311352047 757359 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just.. you know, borrow it < 1311352049 632543 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind < 1311352070 41313 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also rename it :P < 1311352589 868684 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I rename it? < 1311352596 271195 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what should I rename it to? < 1311352957 792015 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-0-225.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311352959 700752 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311353091 991586 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, switching computers < 1311353100 754668 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311353134 12636 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311353456 307607 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311354200 304140 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've adjusted my random BF program generator to only make ones with matching brackets < 1311354568 227057 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, apparently Python has a maximum recursion depth < 1311354570 358728 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn < 1311354617 382524 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes a ridiculously long error message < 1311354830 739759 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-146-193.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311355159 806009 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :While loops work almost as well < 1311355775 814906 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311356067 144121 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-146-193.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311356076 17724 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah python only does fail recursion < 1311356079 656025 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311356745 525644 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311357271 913233 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311357543 370541 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311357623 811681 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311357810 221223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311357889 11760 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311358168 235205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that was an unexpected security update < 1311358174 608211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrary code execution in logrotate, of all things < 1311358176 685850 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one? < 1311358184 35056 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :drivers/net/loopback.c is so strange... 217 lines... And absolutely no code related to handling packets at all. Just some statistics stuff and driver registering/deregistering code < 1311358185 8103 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1311358193 741008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the Debian/Ubuntu package < 1311358194 18539 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what...? < 1311358197 514327 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how? < 1311358200 616853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also vlc, but that's more plausible < 1311358215 491668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: giving it a malformed config filename on the command line < 1311358225 148405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it calculates its length wrong and does a buffer overflow, or something < 1311358237 135278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it requires root then basically on normal setups? < 1311358260 354191 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not too worried then. No obvious way to use this for privilege escalation. < 1311358299 130492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed, it seems not to be suid < 1311358300 767859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's probably OK < 1311358305 933665 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a privilege escalation bug in logrotate earlier. < 1311358310 627553 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though not in the default configuration. < 1311358322 415605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I assume it has some SUID configuration? < 1311358345 112186 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A shell command injection flaw was found in the way logrotate handled the shred directive. A specially-crafted log file could cause logrotate to execute arbitrary commands with the privileges of the user running logrotate (root, by default). Note: The shred directive is not enabled by default. (CVE-2011-1154)" < 1311358351 448509 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311358354 140145 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you'd still need to be able to craft that logfile. < 1311358366 883488 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how specially it would need to be crafted. < 1311358379 863715 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. would it be enough to just write a user-agent field in an apache log or something. < 1311358384 348458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they never do say, for good reason < 1311358448 848015 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The summary may also be a bit misleading; from the CVE overview it looks like you'd need to put shell metacharacters in the log file name itself. < 1311358468 2384 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So just being able to insert stuff in a logfile wouldn't be enough. < 1311358477 440692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is logrotate written in shellscript? or just uses the shell to do some of its commands? < 1311358507 657230 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The shred_file function in logrotate.c in logrotate 3.7.9 and earlier might allow --" < 1311358514 192729 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the latter. < 1311358569 43199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mind immediately went "bash has functions, and a .c extension doesn't necessarily mean anything" < 1311358572 440796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I admit you're probably right < 1311358595 342827 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "shred" configuration directive causes it to use an external command for supposedly-secure log file deletion. < 1311358606 467125 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it was passing the log file name to that without worrying about metacharacters. < 1311358635 563301 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And did it in a systemy fashion and not an execy one. < 1311358638 678309 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311358653 60481 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends whether it goes through the shell parsing and whether the filename starts with - < 1311358676 892 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm.... echo -n '#!/bin/bash\n...' > foo.hs < 1311358689 736959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1311358691 411959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo -e < 1311358693 153002 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not -n < 1311358695 591170 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1311358750 771966 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1311358823 170399 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing you can do on shebang lines is to type -- after the name of the program, at least, is my idea. But modern kernel don't do suid with #! scripts anyways... but I still type -- when a shell script meant to be run on root account anyways < 1311359676 450615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: don't you need both? < 1311359683 865863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo has to quote its command line literally if the first arg isn't -n < 1311359694 422101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in POSIX mode, you have to do -n -e in order to get escaping with GNU echo < 1311359717 592559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1311359722 53812 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I didn't know that < 1311359726 831030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about -ne? < 1311359733 500482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they have to be separate < 1311359748 551143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(POSIX leaves -n's behaviour impl-defined; GNU echo defines it as "suppress final newline and also accept the -e option") < 1311359765 563959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, implementation defined? Seriously? < 1311359774 737935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there's a lot of impl-defined stuff in POSIX < 1311359777 543618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so... what do other echos do with -n < 1311359788 759739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: some echo it literally < 1311359801 455428 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311359817 89086 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's the traditional UNIX behavior. < 1311359827 397874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been discovering all sorts of interesting things about POSIX recently < 1311359833 427799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as mount(2) being nonstandard < 1311359843 12374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's Linux-specific; I certainly didn't expect that < 1311359843 846800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, so why did POSIX say that -n was implementation defined at all? Why not just don't have it? < 1311359855 565245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because some echos do suppress final newline on -n < 1311359860 31516 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, afaik mount(1) is non-standard too < 1311359871 948416 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Echo cannot accept arguments. < 1311359879 208308 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, yes it can... -n :P < 1311359884 28618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: mount(1) isn't a syscall, so I didn't look at it < 1311359887 992770 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No. < 1311359898 428935 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: POSIX forbids echo from accepting arguments. < 1311359900 1681 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, according to ais523 and POSIX? < 1311359914 328435 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It also leaves "-n" implementation-defined. < 1311359918 751799 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1311359927 89147 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But it's not an argument. < 1311359928 904847 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, which leaves a way open for it to accept options :P < 1311359932 800219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so it doesn't take -n as an argument, it takes it as a string that might cause it to act differently < 1311359937 661687 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1311359941 748178 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Precisely. < 1311359949 876744 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, though at least freebsd has mount(1) I know. Probably a few other *nix too < 1311359966 189673 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: mount(1) is available in pretty much every UNIX. < 1311359969 941996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine most *nix do, because the FHS is written in a way that expects mount(1) exists < 1311359974 436428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm pretty surprise it isn't standard < 1311359991 54473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd expect mount(2) to exist in a range of Unices too, just because mount(1) has to do the mounting somehow < 1311360005 969616 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, hm. what is the difference between POSIX and Unix exactly? The SuS I guess? But I haven't seen that for ages < 1311360021 898173 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: POSIX is a "portable operating system" specification. < 1311360036 223463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, where is Unix defined then, the extra bits like mount(1) and so on < 1311360037 402015 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: UNIX is a class of operating systems which generally meet the above spec. < 1311360044 179475 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loosely defined. < 1311360052 270435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, I think Cygwin aims to be POSIXy, not UNIXy < 1311360057 448810 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, Single Unix Specification, remember seeing that somewhere... < 1311360064 781257 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was like years ago < 1311360066 232544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I went and wrote my own statically-linked version of true(1) < 1311360068 945839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and straced it < 1311360071 754086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :2004 edition or something < 1311360074 772312 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SUS is a strict superset of POSIX. < 1311360077 555517 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and? < 1311360081 324628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any guesses as to which syscalls it uses? (it uses three of them) < 1311360090 338942 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I haven't seen any SUS for POSIX.1-2008 yet < 1311360098 530782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, four, I think there's a call to brk in there too < 1311360099 130777 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well exit is one < 1311360104 273679 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It exists. < 1311360106 933293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's the obvious one < 1311360111 555067 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUSv4. < 1311360121 602060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also uses mmap (presumably startup code getting memory) < 1311360123 84047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, isn't that for the 2001 version? < 1311360126 233426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uname, which is the WTFy one < 1311360128 898151 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. < 1311360135 233882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah wtf < 1311360137 169716 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make "true" and "false" programs shell builtins or write them as programs using machine code, it would not be too difficult to do on each machine; you can also have a C version of the program in case using on computers that it hasn't been ported yet. < 1311360152 697147 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, that's v3. < 1311360153 500445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: true generally doesn't need to be massively optimised < 1311360159 681729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm a little unsure as to what it's doing calling uname < 1311360160 515606 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, mount is not SUS. < 1311360161 906494 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, it is a shell built-in in bash < 1311360170 572063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ type true < 1311360170 769882 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :true is a shell builtin < 1311360171 533952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is a version of true I wrote myself, it called no functions < 1311360175 400786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for false < 1311360178 356766 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311360178 617821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: $ type `which true` < 1311360186 530720 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, it is that as well < 1311360191 404278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1311360194 773204 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it doesn't *need* to be massively optimized, although it can be done so easily since you don't need all the C stuff and so on. < 1311360202 73776 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You need to be able to exec true and false in POSIX. < 1311360203 120016 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ type `which true` < 1311360203 318030 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/true is /bin/true < 1311360204 23272 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1311360207 77273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :happily, ls isn't segfaulting any more < 1311360207 274923 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(silly output) < 1311360224 998962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may actually have found a kernel bug; my statically-linked version of cat ended up with two stacks at one point, which overlapped < 1311360239 362064 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also fun: there is precisely one file guaranteed to exist in POSIX. < 1311360242 56744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's hard to tell, because what I was doing was insane < 1311360243 253575 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how? < 1311360244 378007 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /dev/null. < 1311360244 807481 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1311360247 442668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see if I can reproduce it standalone < 1311360247 720430 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311360253 734236 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, :D < 1311360263 12817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it turns out that Linux doesn't like you mmaping to the stack guard page < 1311360270 346790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can imagine that < 1311360271 195237 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Yes you can just make a machine code file. Such optimization is not particularly important although it can be done very easily. < 1311360274 47102 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311360275 233142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why the fuck would you even do that < 1311360275 431606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the page before the stack that's unallocated so stack overflows can cause segfaults) < 1311360285 72427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, nothing was using it... < 1311360297 666888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it reacts to it by allowing the map and shrinking the stack one page < 1311360300 471767 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You might even be able to store the program in the ELF header, and this can be done for some other programs too) < 1311360302 139441 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn < 1311360302 337600 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, where is /dev/zero defined btw? I kind of relied on that in some shell scripts I think. Nothing to serious if the file is not there < 1311360310 330303 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wrote =+ 1 instead of += 1 < 1311360313 399781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bug seems to happen if you do it repeatedly, after doing it twice I ended up with two stacks of different lengths, according to /proc/self/maps < 1311360328 980295 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: well, nothing was using it... <-- were you out of other available pages to mmap? < 1311360333 425562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no < 1311360338 492786 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus side is, I have ice cream < 1311360344 434956 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you even *need* to specify a specific address to mmap it at? < 1311360345 150075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'd written "mmap the last available page before the stack", without thinking of implications < 1311360348 679878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I did < 1311360354 846660 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Traditional behavior. < 1311360361 745095 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why on earth? Hardware related? < 1311360363 174038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the exact value didn't matter, I needed to specify something < 1311360366 111531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, not because of that < 1311360370 910351 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then what < 1311360378 622766 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, ouch < 1311360380 816095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this program is insane, I thought you'd realised that by now < 1311360392 663916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how else can you make ls segfault? < 1311360394 57669 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how soon until you can tell us what on earth it does < 1311360402 211440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: when I've finished it) < 1311360402 489060 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also LSB. < 1311360411 447605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\)// < 1311360414 480954 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along with /dev/tty, and *nothing else*. < 1311360416 612729 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason they purchased ice cream is because ice cream is good to eat and anyways they don't sell cane. O no, their mother will get mad at them when they get home. < 1311360420 93047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea when that is? next week? next month? next year? in 10 years? < 1311360434 648194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about a week of actually working on it < 1311360439 428532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I probably won't work on it continuously < 1311360442 391411 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, You are making interest sky rocket when you keep mentioning it like this :P < 1311360447 350601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I know < 1311360460 305498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what API does X use to actually draw on screen? framebuffer? < 1311360466 473891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I will be feel very let down if it isn't something spectacular! < 1311360475 722436 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I presume it depends on the driver. < 1311360481 819256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that makes sense < 1311360487 356377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying, but makes sense < 1311360491 806393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to have to reimplement X too < 1311360493 949503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for most drivers, part is done in kernel < 1311360505 391143 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not only for binary drivers < 1311360514 913286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reimplementing init was easy, reimplementing mmap only took a day or so (because I hadn't realised that ASLR was turned on, and then it took me a while to figure out how to turn it off for just one process) < 1311360568 851549 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, my guess for something like nvidia binary driver would be that it mmaps a range of shared pages with the kernel module... And what the kernel does is hard to know, some DMA thing probably < 1311360580 755625 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The fuck are you *doing*? < 1311360592 747039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: it's a secret for now < 1311360601 20208 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would presume a similar setup for most other drivers < 1311360609 237424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the moment specifically, I'm making a list of all the syscalls in Linux and sorting them into categories < 1311360610 359074 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, at least all that have hardware acceleration < 1311360634 519804 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, somehow I can't imagine controlling a screen by PIO using syscalls for each written byte :P < 1311360635 407649 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, *most* Linux X drivers are actually going through the DRM layer. < 1311360636 452505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux actually has undocumented syscalls, but from a grep of the kernel, they all appear to do nothing < 1311360642 486089 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is not even *slightly* X-specific. < 1311360660 958672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, undocumented ones such as? < 1311360663 673398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm trying to do with that is to confuse X into thinking it's talking to the kernel, when in fact it's talking to a usermode process < 1311360668 757533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to grab its output/input < 1311360674 937762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: let me check < 1311360689 176410 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Um, good luck in the general case. < 1311360697 609749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: _newselect < 1311360700 121542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: indeed < 1311360707 829376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that uh... How would you grab it's output? That doesn't even make sense. Use a X server that targets vnc or such instead. Much saner < 1311360715 822455 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's effectively a kernel-mode process for some drivers. < 1311360716 180758 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seen some of those < 1311360717 890777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to work out whether it's easier or harder than reimplementing X < 1311360741 295901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just reuse an X server that uses vnc as backend < 1311360743 265664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that exists < 1311360750 13201 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also Wayland, although in my opinion neither X nor Wayland is designed perfectly. < 1311360755 299667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that might be worth considering < 1311360759 751784 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, anything where it needs to have the GPU's framebuffer mmaped. < 1311360779 267122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I assume you don't care about hardware acceleration anyway... Because that will be impossible in your setup. < 1311360783 358968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about SDL? it appears to use framebuffer as a fallback (I actually ran Wesnoth on the control-alt-F1 console, although I had to be root), but I can't figure out what it's using as its first choice < 1311360790 501408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I do care, I want to make sure it isn't being used < 1311360798 515444 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Depends on environment variables. < 1311360806 187487 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then the vnc variant should work :P < 1311360808 205528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, good to know < 1311360842 239364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I believe there is an x11-framebuffer server too < 1311360852 569689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what it was called < 1311360861 196279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one thing I've pretty much admitted defeat on is UIDs, I don't think you can namespace those in Linux < 1311360884 174939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, if everything went through framebuffer, then it'd make life easier, as framebuffer is just the one character special device < 1311360887 779045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to implement < 1311360888 195780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, do you know where the code for the loopback interface is in the kernel? It isn't drivers/net/loopback.c, at least not for the actual packet handling... < 1311360924 681319 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is just one X11 backend though. You are not going to pull this off for the general case. < 1311360980 31304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need to be the general case wrt X backends < 1311360982 866401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wrt programs < 1311360985 421825 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, a conforming C environment is permitted to make X just summon nasal demons, anyways. < 1311360997 30349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programs don't care about the backend, just the frontend < 1311361034 581943 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I would think can be good is to have a SDL-like interface, where you have different windows and the window manager owns the root window and can intercept things from the child windows and do some other stuff. And can also have clipboard buffers such as PRIMARY, SECONDARY, CLIPBOARD. The "screen size" is actually the size of the window < 1311361042 740641 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well as long as you don't plan to get nvidia-settings, catalyst-control-center or other similar softwares running :P < 1311361054 630984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: heh, I think I'll give a miss on nvidia-settings < 1311361059 710607 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nasal demons. < 1311361061 181233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'd expect that to work < 1311361063 574327 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: :) < 1311361067 199977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even ping(1) I'm putting off for later < 1311361077 209885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, right < 1311361097 609569 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm shouldn't be TOO hard in 3.0 what with the new SOCK_ICMP thingy < 1311361128 718742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's doable, it's just not a priority < 1311361135 368660 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://kernelnewbies.org/LinuxChanges#line-69 < 1311361138 356135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is simulating the other end of the connection < 1311361148 72550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get it to send the pong < 1311361149 878101 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what the... < 1311361178 16618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you know what might be easier? Running two linux in qemu and set up a virtual network between them < 1311361185 953963 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux instances* < 1311361188 120834 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should do so that you can run Linux properly with various devices but not needing any proprietary drivers running on the CPU. < 1311361209 222081 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And not even included in the system) < 1311361237 412120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, yes, that seems like the simplest method < 1311361246 453716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm pretty certain you are doing some sort of layer-above-kernel to virtualise or emulate user space programs, making them not know what their environment is < 1311361258 682289 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you are doing it this insane way you are doing though < 1311361268 925899 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably I have missed some important thing here < 1311361273 340022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, that's a decent description for what I'm doing, although it doesn't explain why < 1311361279 733473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you've noted < 1311361311 113925 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there USB Plan 9 Protocol drivers for Windows and Linux? (and also FreeBSD and Mac OS X) < 1311361332 476182 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh there are plenty of reasons, I just don't know which one. Could be as a security measure for example. Or for running older software. Or for a controlled testbed environment (the "simulating the other end of the connection" bit seems to point at this) < 1311361339 447343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are plenty of other options < 1311361370 687657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that "always pid 2" points towards a controlled reproducible testbed environment too < 1311361381 749487 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any USB devices that use Plan 9 Protocol? < 1311361388 893098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I doubt it < 1311361393 724012 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... what < 1311361395 175230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9 isn't all that popular among hardware manufacturers < 1311361404 95645 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't USB devices use the USB protocol? < 1311361418 150881 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how the fuck would it even work otherwise < 1311361458 609221 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, I mean using the Plan 9 Protocol on top of the USB protocol. < 1311361476 816850 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311361479 308832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, on top of which USB device type protocol? < 1311361490 127404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it defines things like mass storage, HID, and so on iirc < 1311361509 180004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I guess there is some type reserved for "vendor specific" < 1311361512 892127 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, maybe it is necessary to add a new device type (or maybe not) < 1311361551 518454 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or as an alternate data on top of an existing protocol depending on the device (if this is possible) < 1311361579 504361 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1311361609 626305 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I think they should be designed any new kind of USB device, instead of using proprietary protocols you can use Plan 9 Protocol instead. < 1311361681 322022 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Plan 9 even have a driver for using Plan 9 Protocol on USB? < 1311361698 610470 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what /is/ the plan 9 protocol exactly? < 1311361736 186870 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's Plan 9's remote filesystem protocol. < 1311361745 997899 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, being Plan 9, therefore Plan 9's remote everything protocol. < 1311361755 686472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, so not suitable for general purpose USB really? < 1311361760 369370 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it is! < 1311361765 818960 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, what about interrupts? < 1311361769 533183 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember, everything is a file. < 1311361780 614278 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For reals. < 1311361800 685219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, yes I know. But what about interrupts, suspending the usb bus, and so on < 1311361829 795838 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1311362060 527261 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that Dresden Codak remains on the tenth strip of an arc that began over a year ago. < 1311362070 13810 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1311362079 557023 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to try OS/2 Warp now < 1311362200 977985 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that Dresden Codak has the worst update schedule. < 1311362212 904727 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, ah, I see your mistake. < 1311362221 946653 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are assuming that there *is* an update schedule. < 1311362230 822508 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That is the worst update schedule. < 1311362258 792953 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, can it be called an update schedule if there are no updates? < 1311362262 132333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, what about that webcomic that elliott talk about. That hardly ever updates? < 1311362272 98204 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what it was called? < 1311362272 296810 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perry Bible? < 1311362277 207582 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/?// < 1311362282 715858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think it had Torvalds in it < 1311362299 551629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and RMS and so on < 1311362302 500317 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Everybody Loves Eric Raymond. < 1311362316 283459 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that hardly ever updates either < 1311362319 484532 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one which, when it updates, will be the harbinger of the apocalypse. < 1311362329 235826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1311362351 587855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point was, that must be a worse update schedule < 1311362439 962055 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are making the same mistake. < 1311362456 575721 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For there to be an update schedule, updates must, at some point, come out. < 1311362466 898638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it is an update-schedule: int days_to_next_updates = random() < 1311362476 4431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't they be scheduled to come out once every ten years, or whatever? < 1311362478 369171 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just as well ask the update schedule of a banana. < 1311362481 575693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what's RAND_MAX on your system? 2^32-1? < 1311362491 747959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well random returns a long int on my system < 1311362495 887795 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311362502 740259 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, rand() != random() though < 1311362507 236639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1311362509 209915 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :different types on return value < 1311362515 158956 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed, but to infer this two updates ten years apart would have to have come and less than ten years would have had to have passed since the last. < 1311362556 435495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what if it was stated rather than inferred? < 1311362585 907923 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then it would only be worth considering if it was not completely at odds with the evidence. < 1311362606 47833 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :random() in POSIX is said to return in the [0, 2^31-1] range. < 1311362613 95638 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311362631 220002 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, as it stands, ELER is scheduled to update on 21st December 2012. < 1311362632 130584 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :While rand() returns from 0 to RAND_MAX, and RAND_MAX >= 32767. < 1311362634 704360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, thanks for linking me that page about changes in 3.0 < 1311362654 240824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :setns() looks... useful for what I'm doing < 1311362662 104875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the workaround with clone() flags is working well for me so far < 1311362665 32086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, lol < 1311362700 100789 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I presume you are using ptrace for this? To be able to catch system calls happening < 1311362707 290772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1311362719 569977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried single-step but it was too slow < 1311362728 722742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that still doesn't deal with stuff like me opening /dev/console and doing ioctls on it < 1311362736 683420 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a program that does that even < 1311362739 957251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to have to, umm, reimplement all of /dev < 1311362750 520561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except /dev/null and /dev/zero, those were easy < 1311362758 610893 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fun. ALSA is going to be very very latency sensitive :P < 1311362759 723371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the existing devices work for those < 1311362767 135428 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Add /dev/tty and you will have reimplemented everything a LSB application can use. < 1311362770 446924 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1311362775 580257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: LSB? < 1311362780 172549 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, what, really!? < 1311362781 335554 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux Standard Base. < 1311362784 573460 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1311362789 728047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi < 1311362796 19203 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, really. < 1311362798 8595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably going to make a pty and connect stdout/in/err to it < 1311362803 971557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may as well place it at /dev/tty too < 1311362811 656295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can copy ptys just by copying device numbers, right? < 1311362812 491841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what *is* /dev/null btw? < 1311362815 391132 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Vorpal < 1311362818 704748 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: EOF < 1311362824 495841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, and that isn't in LSB? < 1311362824 693857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's a character special file, reads always return EOF, writes always succeed but do nothing < 1311362835 639124 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /dev/null, /dev/zero, and /dev/tty are in LSB. < 1311362837 620949 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't forget /dev/full. < 1311362838 38258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why on earth is /dev/full useful? < 1311362843 33101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: for testing programs < 1311362846 613250 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1311362852 83897 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/bull < 1311362854 61676 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That is the entire contents of the LSB /dev hierarchy. < 1311362854 775767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can redirect stdout to /dev/full, and see if they behave gracefully or stupidly < 1311362874 919459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cp /etc/passwd /dev/full < 1311362876 213641 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp: writing `/dev/full': No space left on device < 1311362898 762735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a great way of checking to see if people are checking the return value of fclose() < 1311362899 638526 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... there are some devices in my /dev that would be very hard to do in user space < 1311362915 773234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, it depends on if people are actually using them < 1311362919 621150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, what about /dev/urandom? < 1311362926 144626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting off with an empty /dev, and implementing things in it as necessary < 1311362930 433278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, /dev/random and /dev/urandom will be easy too < 1311362935 291827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no they won't :) < 1311362946 570467 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ... definitely testbed :P < 1311362972 703012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of putting /dev/zero at each of them, but I'm worried some programs will go into infinite loops if their randomness sources do that < 1311362976 480941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, /dev/snapshot, /dev/vga_arbiter /dev/rtc0, /dev/sda < 1311362988 633408 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make /dev/random return this: < 1311362992 268052 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, of course if you don't want to implement fake "running as root" it will be way easier < 1311362993 24109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/sda is easy, it's readable only by root < 1311363000 206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not faking running as root < 1311363003 268606 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (%256) [0..] < 1311363010 321697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly because root can trivially escape a chroot < 1311363012 734271 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nope. < 1311363020 75330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mkdir x; chroot x; cd ..; chroot .) < 1311363026 792751 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then you make a lot of system calls return EACCESS or similar < 1311363028 63648 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabottttt < 1311363031 599234 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :;a; < 1311363031 840880 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot is missing? :( < 1311363034 646547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that mechanism of escaping chroots is in there deliberate < 1311363038 990330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*deliberately < 1311363043 143529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm not emulating every system call < 1311363046 469170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tinkering with their params a bit < 1311363049 923571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and return values < 1311363058 492775 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Stallman didn't design the chroot syscall. < 1311363060 858171 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I see... < 1311363079 893217 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: you can use EgoBot, although it is a bit different, and has trouble with infinite list output (so use take to shorten it) < 1311363082 462020 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also /proc/self will be fun < 1311363102 24002 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, especially the very weird symlinks found in there... < 1311363103 541481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's one of the few things I have workign correctly already < 1311363114 667163 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, NOMW could be made Turing-complete (or whatever the probabilistic equivalent is) using a crossover square, I think. < 1311363115 364714 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: oh also % won't be imported by default < 1311363116 852036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I'm catting things in /proc/self in order to test my program < 1311363118 206403 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? symlinks to removed files in /dev/fd wortk? < 1311363120 327620 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :work* < 1311363131 407790 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say that if a square is +, then a bobule can enter it, but it cannot leave by a 90-degree angle from the way it entered. < 1311363135 555334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that Linux allows you to mount multiple proc filesystems /that give different results/? < 1311363139 484605 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell take 80 $ map (Ratio.%256) [0..] < 1311363144 442872 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[0%1,1%256,1%128,3%256,1%64,5%256,3%128,7%256,1%32,9%256,5%128,11%256,3%64,13%256,7%128,15%256,1%16,17%256,9%128,19%256,5%64,21%256,11%128,23%256,3%32,25%256,13%128,27%256,7%64,29%256,15%128,31%256,1%8,33%256,17%128,35%256,9%64,37%256,19%128,39%256,5%32,41%256,21%128,43%256,11%64,45%256,23%128,47%256,3%16,49%256,25%128,51%256,13%64,53%256,27%128,55%256,7%32,57%256,29%128,59%256,15%64,61%256,31%128,63%256,1%4,65%256,33%128,67%256,17%64,69%256,35%128,71%256,9%32 < 1311363149 362006 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, all that fancy namespace crap < 1311363152 116540 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1311363153 82457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I'm doing < 1311363154 211270 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, my kernel is compiled without it < 1311363161 318885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because to me, it is useless < 1311363164 804301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you won't be able to run my program then < 1311363166 791944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty useful to me < 1311363169 780346 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell take 80 $ map ((flip mod) 256) [0..] < 1311363172 118225 :tswett!~Warrigal@thay.Stanford.EDU PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boom, transistors. < 1311363172 480894 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79] < 1311363180 649609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well if you tell me what your program is I might recompile the kernel :P < 1311363185 161126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311363187 947748 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: you can use (`mod` 256) < 1311363195 869837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those options are on by default, right? < 1311363197 347298 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311363199 468278 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw, have you check if plash does what you want? < 1311363203 768859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :othewrise everyone will have to recompile their kernel < 1311363211 589476 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, have you revealed what it is? < 1311363216 365987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1311363219 339484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, uh no idea. I incrementally updated my .config over the years < 1311363225 45806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal's been guessing, and come to similar conclusions to you < 1311363244 42627 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, no but he leaked enough and I'm pretty certain he is doing something like virtualisation or emulation of user space programs < 1311363255 396360 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the obvious part < 1311363263 552428 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for what purpose" is the part I guessed at < 1311363264 532376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, *probably* for some sort of controlled reproducible test bed system. < 1311363290 570780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a good description, although I don't mind you figuring out that part, because it's reasonably obvious and not the whole thing < 1311363302 931782 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, since it seems he wants to emulate remote network (wrt ping) and /dev/urandom "wouldn't be easy" < 1311363307 114191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't < 1311363310 961840 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you hate it when you try to do something awesome, then realize it's completely mathematically impossible? < 1311363311 517492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turned off networking so I wouldn't have to do that < 1311363316 83619 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right < 1311363337 650034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it doesn't happen too much < 1311363341 114257 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-31-102.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1311363341 530586 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-31-102.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1311363341 728952 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311363370 817252 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: every ordinary identifier can be turned into an operator by putting `` around it, and every operator identifier can be turned into an ordinary one by putting () around it. (although you cannot iterate this) < 1311363393 527301 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311363437 782567 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you need a ghc option to do it for types < 1311363508 45294 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is sad that you can't iterate it. That would allow stuff like `(* 2 +)` or such < 1311363512 553366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well not exactly that) < 1311363534 577812 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's not quite iterating, although yes that might be useful < 1311363541 896226 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1311363549 577414 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be an extension, right? < 1311363553 684342 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311363561 24735 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but iterating it is only really useful if you can build up expressions between the iterations < 1311363564 81658 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but afaik it hasn't been implemented < 1311363578 605276 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean `(`(+)`)` is utterly useless < 1311363584 59217 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311363597 233784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda seems to use _+_ rather than (+); is there any reason for the change? < 1311363609 233784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_ looking more mathematical, perhaps? < 1311363617 559531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(its syntax is otherwise mostly identical to Haskell's with a few extensions) < 1311363756 15587 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't that sort of part of its mixfix syntax, you can have as many _'s as you want < 1311363769 304295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, that may be what it's about < 1311363771 831768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it did that < 1311363773 152515 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a Haskell code be prettyprinted? < 1311363777 291529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's quite a nifty feature < 1311363780 97275 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't actually know agda < 1311363780 295317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't see why not < 1311363785 979863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: neither do I < 1311363792 488662 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what is _+_ and (+) means? < 1311363793 461109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out I have an Agda fanatic as a coworker < 1311363799 525368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and want to be able to at least vaguely understand what he's doing < 1311363819 738638 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: those are agda's and haskell's way of referring to the + operator as a value, respectively < 1311363839 216774 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of function type) < 1311363847 979213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually, in Agda there's no + operator by default, you have to implement it by hand < 1311363853 13066 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311363858 889798 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.impredicative.com/ur/tutorial/intro.html not that far down, but so far, I think I can wrap my brain around it < 1311363885 599905 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spoke too soon, this syntax I need to slow down for < 1311363932 166517 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome, compose is more understandable than id :/ < 1311363947 480028 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there is a program called hs2tex or something like that which prettyprints haskell, i believe people sometimes use it for math papers. it replaces -> and stuff with proper math symbols. < 1311363951 713961 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I do think being able to refer to operators as function value can be useful in some cases. < 1311363957 794275 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, compose has more... elaboration in its syntax, which makes it more uunderstandable by context) < 1311363964 7533 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun id [a] (x : a) : a = x < 1311363969 31004 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun id [a] (x : a) : a = x < 1311363970 885670 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1311363975 206644 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun compose [a] [b] [c] (f : b -> c) (g : a -> b) (x : a) : c = f (g x) < 1311364000 85641 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also ghc has an option for allowing unicode for many things < 1311364001 246184 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Does it just put every line without > at the start directly as TeX codes? < 1311364021 563060 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: actually, in Agda there's no + operator by default, you have to implement it by hand <-- not in the standard library!? < 1311364028 110950 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And lines with > prettyprinted Haskell codes converted to TeX? < 1311364031 715046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you even have to implement integers by hand < 1311364036 82345 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hm i would guess it uses the \begin{code} convention < 1311364042 808880 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what does the standard library have then < 1311364045 500007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my coworker's master's project was about automatically detecting people trying to implement integers and optimising them into native integers < 1311364051 625219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311364063 505635 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not make a standard library with these in? < 1311364094 207758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly there is one; I'm not too clear on the details < 1311364130 931212 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes I do think being able to refer to operators as function value can be useful in some cases. <-- it is quite frequently used < 1311364131 758547 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I suppose it can be modified to use > if you prefer that way < 1311364160 591873 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell zipWith (+) [1..10] [100, 200.. 1000] < 1311364163 192970 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[101,202,303,404,505,606,707,808,909,1010] < 1311364175 587418 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, in Haskell perhaps it is very useful although in other programming language with function values it can be useful in a few cases to be able to make such thing. < 1311364295 618545 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun id [a] (x : a) : a = x <-- i guess agda's type system requires that for flexible use. the a would be an implicit type parameter, i think? < 1311364309 645975 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda? < 1311364320 476435 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's Ur that I pasted < 1311364323 193372 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1311364324 142154 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For proper Knuth-style literate programming, you would also have index, table of contents, named chunks, and possibly a macro preprocessor if it is useful. (As well as commands that affect how the different kind of operators and so on are treated when making the printout) < 1311364357 783269 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i thought you were still talking about agda. although my guess for what the ur means still stands. < 1311364378 151343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was never talking about Agda. Other people were talking about Agda. < 1311364392 572276 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... I _think_ that guess is correct < 1311364401 680721 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there symbols or combinations of symbols not used in Haskell? I read the documentation. Is `` (with nothing in between) invalid, for example? Others? < 1311364405 415822 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: which is why i was confused, you gave a link and i frequently don't bother to visit links < 1311364411 153584 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Then there's parametric polymorphism. Unlike in ML and Haskell, polymorphic functions in Ur/Web often require full type annotations. That is because more advanced features (which we'll get to in the next chapter) make Ur type inference undecidable." < 1311364416 554918 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i assumed you were linking to an agda tutorial < 1311364452 730827 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh it's that dependent web language that was posted on reddit? < 1311364483 727675 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a for hire ad, iirc < 1311364484 6735 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it was posted on Reddit, but "dependent web language" sounds right. Well, for Ur/Web. Ur itself is not necessarily web related < 1311364498 971984 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hiring < 1311364516 642324 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so there's a plain ur too... < 1311364528 925576 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION may not have bothered to visit that link either ;D < 1311364529 947217 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what else I want to have is Literate LLVM, maybe I will invent that some day (I can call it LWEB maybe) < 1311364540 705028 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with file extension .llw) < 1311364557 741757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike LLVM, it makes all sorts of assumptions that are true in practice but I don't like < 1311364590 500744 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is C-- dead? < 1311364591 994804 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a few things I also dislike about LLVM, although I have made suggestions to correct these things. < 1311364605 739260 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:59:42: Yet Another Haskell Tutorial by some guy Hal Daume < 1311364605 937529 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1311364617 821302 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it's only ever been alive in GHC, I think < 1311364618 19484 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I like to have would be constraint analysis. < 1311364630 112514 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :about what is that itidus20 quote < 1311364638 253275 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: what he's reading < 1311364639 50793 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I even have ideas about how constraint analysis would work.) < 1311364642 743639 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait this is an ancient log < 1311364643 824345 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1311364645 226397 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancient =a day < 1311364656 158108 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well if you use latex you can use its table of contents feature, i assume < 1311364669 949795 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i believe `` is a syntax error, yes. < 1311364684 327344 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: well if you use latex you can use its table of contents feature, i assume < 1311364689 204182 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: don't talk to zzo about latex :O < 1311364698 641669 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1311364707 562948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oracle have bought ksplice? < 1311364710 345380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see that one coming < 1311364716 153081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in retrospect, it's not a ridiculous thing for them to do < 1311364716 512856 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's what most people using hs2tex would be doing < 1311364752 237500 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, you can use things that would be syntax error in Haskell to get out of Haskell code mode, if making a Knuth-style literate programming system for Haskell... < 1311364757 671282 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1311364778 876332 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I understand enough ML to grasp this module system stuff :/ < 1311364792 723023 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i believe (almost?) every printable ascii character is either alphanumeric, a legal operator character, or used in the syntax. < 1311364795 271488 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My understanding of everything prior was fueled by my understanding of Haskell < 1311364797 314153 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in haskell) < 1311364798 865299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oracle have bought ksplice? < 1311364799 819736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1311364801 935952 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ouch < 1311364845 337752 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, but some combinations can be syntax errors, which is why you can use those combinations for such things. < 1311364865 824858 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is `` the only one such or is other combinations possible that can do that? < 1311364867 738079 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and mostly everything which does not combine into an operator or an identifier (which might be a keyword in either case) will split < 1311364882 344281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most characters are legal inside strings < 1311364890 71150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose """ may be a combination that isn't legal in any context at all but comments < 1311364898 533621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do Haskell comments work again? < 1311364917 968362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or can you write a "string1""string2" in Haskell?) < 1311364923 691173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (++) "a""b" < 1311364928 621469 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: '' is also illegal at the start of a token i think, since ' needs to be escaped inside character classes. and also anything with ' ...more than one character representation... ' < 1311364935 676581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@eval (++) "a""b" < 1311364939 377082 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*character literals < 1311364968 717212 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside strings, you can get errors due to nonexisting escapes < 1311364976 663061 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell "\fnord" < 1311364978 954876 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"\fnord" < 1311364981 708683 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1311364982 410603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, could do that as an extension. Overloaded Character literals or something < 1311364989 95357 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait \f _is_ an escape < 1311365000 360508 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell "\possibly not fnord" < 1311365013 108007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it probably drops errors < 1311365014 222349 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gave an error < 1311365019 919877 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does for me anyway < 1311365022 605414 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, it sends them in DCC < 1311365029 20768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah.. DCC is broken for me < 1311365035 961430 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so if I understand this correctly, kinds are ... bigger in Ur than in Haskell, in that they encompass more than just types < 1311365045 360607 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinds are the "types" of more than types < 1311365115 578268 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, derp, I misunderstood what it meant by "type families", so now that bit's clearer. What I said just before is still true though < 1311365127 162783 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i don't know. < 1311365190 878716 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: mind you '' is still legal inside other identifiers, because of haskell's decision to support the common mathematical x', x'' naming < 1311365215 479568 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I think I'm getting this < 1311365248 121003 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the document it seems the "\&" is good, some C document says only 2 hex digits after \x but I have had it allow any number of "\x000000000000000" is still a single character, for example. So, if it had "\&" like Haskell then you can avoid that. Maybe I can make a next version of Enhanced CWEB to support such things and convert it to work with a C compiler. < 1311365288 257330 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ,+ is another sequence which i don't think is legal, because most operators cannot begin an unparenthesized expression < 1311365317 145309 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(, being a delimiter and so not part of an operator) < 1311365352 431914 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it would be legal in a haskell comment < 1311365386 989429 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and in strings, but there would be a parser to check for these things which needs to do so anyways for prettyprinting and indexing. < 1311365435 458007 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I dislike LLVM, it makes all sorts of assumptions that are true in practice but I don't like <-- well if you're big enough you can probably get a patch in to add options, like the ghc people did < 1311365448 675247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's more its fundamental design < 1311365454 321503 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what sort of things does it assume? < 1311365467 713565 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe some things can be done using LLVM metadata? < 1311365480 567853 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:49:55: I think Perl was the earliest language in the C family to have map and filter operators. < 1311365480 845804 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSVO C family < 1311365484 677244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that all its commands can be implemented via native-code commands that have the same semantics as one of its operators < 1311365493 99663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is C family? < 1311365495 286647 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, have a metadata to tell it what thing not to assume, maybe < 1311365497 418626 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to CakeProphet < 1311365499 752577 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl's Awk family. < 1311365509 622117 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it can be said to have a family at all. < 1311365532 208107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, uh they probably can. Using something like libgcc in worst case < 1311365540 484799 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh dear <-- you think YAHT is too obsolete? i already advised him that he should get the haskell platform instead of hugs if he was serious (he said, hypocritically >:) ) < 1311365545 711951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's a false assumption for BF < 1311365567 394511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Ah, what in specific can you not implement by emulation? < 1311365572 839561 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, I told him about LYAH later I think < 1311365581 974839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc tries not to make that assumption; it doesn't actually /work/, but that's due to bugs not design issues < 1311365583 819949 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and I saw that at the time, that's what made me realise it was an old conversation < 1311365585 378991 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... Haskell's more C family than Perl. < 1311365592 161890 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Haskell allows for direct memory access. < 1311365594 316126 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Well, er, no. < 1311365597 452940 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1311365600 424730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, BF requires a temporary to do the equivalent of MOV from x86 < 1311365607 640950 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically, C doesn't. Just common implementations do. < 1311365613 220390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc has actually taken that possibility into account; LLVM hasn't < 1311365627 791277 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I realise that Haskell isn't very C-like. Neither is Perl. < 1311365644 998679 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1311365648 511986 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1311365648 878458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl also allows for direct memory access, I think, somehow < 1311365653 224046 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay, but surely that could be done in the code gen by having every other cell be a temporary? < 1311365653 501705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a really obscure method involving libraries < 1311365663 682460 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, it *is* Perl. < 1311365666 198317 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has everything. < 1311365668 4805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: gcc-bf reserves a temporary for that < 1311365688 134324 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1311365688 828979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right < 1311365694 652721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's ugly having to do most of the code generation in ld < 1311365695 209178 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it can be done then in bf < 1311365702 990551 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : (or can you write a "string1""string2" in Haskell?) <-- yes < 1311365704 103250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather have the compiler do it < 1311365704 301763 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it isn't fundamentally impossible < 1311365723 77821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf I mostly gave up on when it came to implementing rightshifts and multiplication < 1311365726 586325 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "a""b" < 1311365728 586080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much effort < 1311365730 874086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1311365740 829390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I've been getting no reply from lambdabot trying that < 1311365748 538392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the users lists, I suspect it's because lambdabot isn't here < 1311365751 350568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311365753 113424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than because it barfs on it, though < 1311365766 809930 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311365767 7551 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell "a""b" < 1311365767 8691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on Freenode, in fact < 1311365772 914053 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: won't work < 1311365779 893410 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print "oh""no" < 1311365782 236025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311365783 70684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStr ((++) "a""b") < 1311365785 316695 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ab < 1311365791 740565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I win, I think < 1311365794 470907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311365794 749309 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rest in peace lambdabot???? < 1311365801 275207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it'll probably be back later < 1311365808 995577 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nap in peace < 1311365810 9403 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rest in pace;sdgfh < 1311365817 198646 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote rest in peace lambdabot???? monqy: it'll probably be back later nap in peace < 1311365820 887280 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm I wonder why pthread_cancel is defined as a weak symbol in my libgcc < 1311365821 397644 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :528) rest in peace lambdabot???? monqy: it'll probably be back later nap in peace < 1311365834 171746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with a few more pthread functions < 1311365843 238626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm not sure, I don't think I'm going to get pthreads workign < 1311365844 771106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*working < 1311365852 276100 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:22:39: it's because python is descriptive rather than declarative < 1311365852 554310 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:22:51: or rather prescriptive < 1311365852 752074 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:23:40: well, i think "imperative" does not focus on the important aspect of the difference between so called "imperative" languages and so called "functional" langauges < 1311365852 752249 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this log is unbearably bad < 1311365856 666223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, not if the threads use futexes, which they probably will < 1311365865 175859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they do too much in userspace < 1311365870 812540 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: *wince* < 1311365872 989156 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe some other libgcc function depends on pthread calls iff pthread is loaded? < 1311365875 599020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: wait what? < 1311365882 712731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out if that's wrong or meaningless < 1311365884 81048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and just stubs it out if it doesn't need to care about threads? < 1311365889 92726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or correct but pointless, like a tautology < 1311365893 864023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: perhaps < 1311365895 752576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe errno < 1311365900 763207 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that applies to most things cheater_ says < 1311365910 626237 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:23:59: i mean you can perfectly well say that python is an imperative, functional language < 1311365916 440876 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool story, tell me more < 1311365924 732968 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:24:25: functional means a function is a first class object < 1311365924 931488 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1311365942 834249 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dying < 1311365945 419843 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:26:07: "functional" is a very flimsy description of haskell, erlang, ocaml and lisp < 1311365945 618676 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :common lisp is not a functional language. nor is scheme. < 1311365951 591018 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the others are. well, maybe not erlang. < 1311365953 790153 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, possibly some functions like __register_frame_info_table_bases or __emutls_register_common that are in there < 1311365963 237982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :__enable_execute_stack? What? Come on < 1311365975 42860 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :some unwind functions there too < 1311365977 116909 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a lot of ideas of how constraint analysis could work in LLVM. There can be forward constraints, and in some cases (such as reaching "unreachable") backward constraints, and then constranits based on trap values (such as "add nuw"), etc < 1311365985 443435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, any idea what _newselect(2) is for? < 1311365991 504886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't documented, and it isn't implemented either AFAICT < 1311366006 789495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even as a redirect to _ni_syscall like the other unimplemented syscalls < 1311366016 579331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I could try calling it to see what error I got, but that feels messy < 1311366019 551853 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where is it even mentioned it? < 1311366024 589471 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@p5B133F30.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311366032 811673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: in the kernel headers that specify syscall numbers < 1311366033 193001 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it\?/it/ < 1311366037 98868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311366048 514077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the number doesn't seem to clash with any others < 1311366050 794603 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it a low or high number? < 1311366054 57147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediumish < 1311366056 744523 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311366064 34416 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be some abandoned thing < 1311366071 199808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the leading underscore confuses me too < 1311366073 85428 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else I would like in LLVM is if you can tell it to store constant values in code space if possible (in the alignment padding, or in case it exactly matches an instruction), and store variables in the immediate operands to instructions if possible, etc < 1311366075 613715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :syscall names normally don't start with one of those < 1311366080 441106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :abandoned thing is my guess too < 1311366134 328736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, greping kernel sources reveals #define __NR__newselect in lots of arch/*/include/asm/unistd.h plus this line: < 1311366137 841052 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :./scripts/checksyscalls.sh:#define __IGNORE__newselect < 1311366152 788374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed, I did that too < 1311366153 66671 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :./arch/blackfin/include/asm/unistd.h: /* 142 __NR__newselect obsolete */ < 1311366153 706160 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311366157 814425 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1311366165 129092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm/unistd.h is the file responsible for syscall numbers (in the various arches) < 1311366167 180788 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1311366175 443713 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I find this quite amusing: ./arch/mips/include/asm/unistd.h:#define __NR__newselect (__NR_Linux + 142) < 1311366178 507378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and checksyscalls.sh checks to see that every syscall is implemented on every arch, minus the ones defined as ignored < 1311366179 875139 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :__NR_Linux? < 1311366194 859882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: maybe it's trying to avoid a number clash with some other OS < 1311366204 618702 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define __NR_Linux 4000 < 1311366211 542291 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Linux o32 style syscalls are in the range from 4000 to 4999. < 1311366230 397768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311366235 476039 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a huge #ifdef here < 1311366240 614330 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Linux 64-bit syscalls are in the range from 5000 to 5999. < 1311366240 812316 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : */ < 1311366240 812524 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define __NR_Linux 5000 < 1311366242 981773 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :further down < 1311366251 105294 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the entire define list AGAIN < 1311366262 468756 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the hell do they repeat the lines like: < 1311366264 938266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define __NR_read (__NR_Linux + 0) < 1311366273 312262 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1311366277 965465 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is different for different modes < 1311366279 431512 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define __NR_syscall (__NR_Linux + 0) < 1311366281 895605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for another one < 1311366293 686402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 and x64 have different syscall numbers < 1311366303 270022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one syscall (mmap2) actually takes different parameters on the two architectures < 1311366307 246880 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know anything about constraint analysis? < 1311366307 525005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why on earth? < 1311366313 157973 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Linux N32 syscalls are in the range from 6000 to 6999. < 1311366313 356356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : */ < 1311366313 356586 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define __NR_Linux 6000 < 1311366321 720702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, mmap2 is designed for 32-bit systems to open files larger than 32 bits < 1311366326 523625 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311366332 720509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ditto for 64 bits, but they changed the scaling factor < 1311366332 955145 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it isn't needed on 64-bit then < 1311366339 16960 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err what < 1311366349 802023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap2 is like mmap but you specify the offset in units of 4K < 1311366354 848170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4KiB, that is) < 1311366361 339520 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean larger than 64 bits on x86-64? < 1311366369 189181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except on 64-bit, you specify the offsets in units of the page size < 1311366370 591617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think so < 1311366375 224847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which might not be 4KiB exactly < 1311366389 69668 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err x86/x86-64 page size *is* 4KiB < 1311366404 108380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that makes the man page look a bit weird < 1311366418 63396 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless you mean huge-pages, but they are the exception, not the nrom < 1311366418 261565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps they're allowing for a potential future change in page size, but think it'll only happen on 64-bit platforms not 32-bit platforms < 1311366419 744937 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :norm* < 1311366432 801395 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, allows you to create specially crafted 1 MB or larger pages < 1311366441 129743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably about that, then < 1311366441 547189 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : common lisp is not a functional language. nor is scheme. <-- i think that's a rather big shift from the historical use of the phrase. like refusing to call neanderthals humans. < 1311366460 751106 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it can't be... because that is decided on by a per-page basis < 1311366470 66644 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so that doesn't make any sense here < 1311366498 437055 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, Scheme probably counts < 1311366503 740129 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But Common Lisp is unquestionably non-functional < 1311366505 146652 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask any Lisper < 1311366510 601512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to define functional languages well < 1311366526 285759 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Higher-order functions are rare in Common Lisp outside of things like map < 1311366535 251446 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those are usually done with LOOP or ITERATE, even < 1311366541 693934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my working definition of non-imperative is languages in which assignment to mutable variables is nonidiomatic < 1311366555 304631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in common Lisp, setq is fairly common, isn't it? < 1311366557 873366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ getconf PAGESIZE < 1311366561 146855 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :4096 < 1311366567 517539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's 4096 on my system too < 1311366576 626533 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: setf is common, steq isn't < 1311366578 438067 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :setq < 1311366581 867096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any x86 system will give that. Same for x86-64 < 1311366586 601698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does setf do? < 1311366593 202508 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:41:56: i would say, map paintRed fence = "a fence which is red" < 1311366593 880193 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:42:09: you would say map paintRed fence = "a fence which has been painted red" < 1311366599 126151 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the stupidest thing ever omg shut up you idiot < 1311366617 862856 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (let ((x (cons 9 0))) (setf (car x) 0) x) ==> (0 . 0) < 1311366619 914967 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow what < 1311366621 38854 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i < 1311366623 180131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'd interpret "map paintRed fence" as "what results when every component of a fence is painted red" < 1311366624 936821 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it's setq that can set forms with defined setters, too < 1311366639 373932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK, a generalised version < 1311366640 624731 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doubles as a raw variable setter and a structure mutator < 1311366649 543306 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's generally referred to as generalised setq < 1311366652 674080 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the f is for Form < 1311366654 954557 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :setq is set quote < 1311366658 250708 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it used to be (set 'var x) < 1311366665 593564 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when lisps were dynamically scoped and also crap < 1311366673 416659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in C++, setq corresponds to memcpy(&a, &b, sizeof b) and setf corresponds to a=b? < 1311366713 848880 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sure, although it's more like a=b where a must be a variable name < 1311366718 710764 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That memcpy can also write to structure members < 1311366750 258804 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : $ getconf -a | grep PAGE < 1311366750 494898 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAGESIZE 4096 < 1311366750 495092 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAGE_SIZE 4096 < 1311366751 935869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1311366791 40278 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAGES_I_ZE < 1311366809 803249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, alas, they forgot that one < 1311366862 693517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, isn't it possible to overload & in C++? < 1311366865 519785 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oesrijgreoijg < 1311366883 206721 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: memcpy(&a + offsetof(foo, b), &b + offsetof(foo, b), sizeof(b.foo)); ? < 1311366886 279515 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1311366889 454535 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also *. < 1311366894 420748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about sizeof? < 1311366895 241991 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And cast to void*. < 1311366899 399228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :overloading unary * makes more sense < 1311366903 827474 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not -> though afaik < 1311366906 715502 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe < 1311366907 380870 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1311366925 52368 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> is overloadable, IIRC. < 1311366927 207121 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it either -> or . you can't overload? < 1311366933 494977 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[...] demos that intentionally use incorrect style because it's easier to present in a short demo [...] < 1311366933 693489 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one" < 1311366933 912760 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the "." is not, and neither is the ternary operator. < 1311366935 423224 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or sizeof. < 1311366940 960943 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/hidsa/opa_one_language_for_all_the_stack_forget/ < 1311366957 694259 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator-> is overloadable. < 1311366958 143783 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the :: namespace thing, and the ".*" pointer-to-member mess. < 1311366964 358613 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also ->* < 1311366970 410855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does .* actually do? < 1311366998 930398 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: OPA is similar to Ur/Web < 1311367005 535112 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's possible to overload *every cast* in C++. < 1311367007 822782 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with more marketing, and unfortunately less typing < 1311367008 71453 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's used when invoking a pointer-to-member-function. < 1311367012 349102 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"also, not to be an ass, but generally speaking and talking about UR (that you mentioned), i don't really trust a web framework with such a raw site." lol < 1311367019 149828 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish webtards would stop finding Ur < 1311367040 546614 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ur any good should i learn it < 1311367052 444084 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, is that a Opa person who said that or a random person? < 1311367066 704251 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is opa any good should i learn it < 1311367078 430696 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: a random person < 1311367083 583468 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ur is good < 1311367090 207009 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol, Ur's site has now been updated < 1311367091 430007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, you can't overload casts *between* built in types though < 1311367094 324441 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even with friend < 1311367098 589597 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll learn ur < 1311367119 225982 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "Foo foo; void (Foo::*)(int) bar = &Foo::baz; foo.*bar(42);" is basically "Foo foo; foo.baz(42);" except messier. < 1311367143 691391 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ sucks so badly < 1311367144 502534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1311367156 973231 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Shhh, C++ is good because of C++ sudoku < 1311367162 512316 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1311367197 70494 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: it's where you try to accomplish some usually-functional-programming-related task in C++0x < 1311367207 699335 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's great, it's the best game, I play it regularly < 1311367220 865492 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance: maybe in C++ seems easy, but you _cannot_ do it with just a pointer to T < 1311367225 571401 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that forbids T from being a reference type < 1311367237 333422 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to end up taking advantage of everything being convertible to a bunch of chars and back < 1311367329 215485 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :ingenious < 1311367473 533599 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:59:05: trying to assign cosmical properties to mathematical objects is called physics < 1311367478 231315 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop < 1311367479 57589 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking < 1311367479 828545 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the past < 1311367548 493300 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt that backwards wow is cheater_ serious in the past < 1311367549 8951 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, only if you promise never to get born < 1311367559 35393 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_ are you serious in the past < 1311367565 880639 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, totally srs < 1311367572 62071 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1311367576 801920 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: fuck off < 1311367593 46741 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, are you trying to annoy me or arouse me? < 1311367606 554452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering whether to logread to see if elliott_'s cheater quotes are real or fake quotes designed to make him look stupid < 1311367623 825167 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: are you trying to be a boring, egotistic shitheadeaded idiot or does it come without effort < 1311367625 976905 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no they're real quotes that are designed to make me look stupid < 1311367626 811171 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: real < 1311367639 358627 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shitheadeaded" im good with words < 1311367654 735419 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it comes naturally < 1311367655 886460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're missing a d at the end < 1311367668 42377 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shitheadeadedison < 1311367686 397958 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ how long does this log go on for < 1311367700 374447 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR < 1311367701 486889 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:42:24: in C you'd say to get a maserati GT you'd take a ferrari 430, you'd then change the body work, and then you'd furnish it with a nice interior < 1311367701 685273 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:43:13: in haskell, you'd say a maserati gt is a ferrari 430 - bodywork - interior + new body work + new interior < 1311367701 685372 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is literally the worst car analogy i've ever read < 1311367701 685415 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHOLE < 1311367702 642508 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIFE. < 1311367712 271890 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how long this log goes on for. < 1311367722 916419 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that isn't quite as stupid as some of the tohers < 1311367726 641251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*others < 1311367730 300320 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the others aren't car analogies < 1311367731 374110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although admittedly that isn't difficult < 1311367750 25136 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, i'm glad, i really like car analogies, it's great to reach something outstanding < 1311367751 831828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider car analogies inherently stupid, incidentally < 1311367779 77744 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, monads are like cars < 1311367784 853801 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what isnt stupid about car analogies < 1311367797 246587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most car analogies don't compare things to cars in general < 1311367803 579090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but specific parts of cars or models of car < 1311367807 43315 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, elliott_ is smart about everything.. so i'd say elliott < 1311367825 374418 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ is like a car analogy? < 1311367840 837018 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, i think he's like a bad car analogy < 1311367877 167749 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, i'd say elliott :: humans == maserati gt analogy :: car analogies < 1311367973 282426 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: is he really trying to deconvert a cultist of zepto < 1311368023 140282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: oh, disaster: sg(1) is an actual command, so we can't call scapegoat that < 1311368035 722368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the group equivalent of sg(1) < 1311368040 819965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of su(1) < 1311368046 922005 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how have I never tried to run sg before? < 1311368059 925093 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we could lobby for sg to be renamed :-P < 1311368062 78456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it isn't very useful except on a very large system < 1311368063 998277 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it car anaology analogies are unzepto < 1311368066 24867 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just assume the truth, that nobody uses it < 1311368071 998185 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no but I mean, when talking about scapegoat < 1311368078 299938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is redundant to newgrp anyway < 1311368082 578504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: ah, I see < 1311368097 261183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why do sg and newgrp both exist? < 1311368107 473440 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1311368111 322498 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: see, we can totally call it sg, it'll be our campaign against redundancy < 1311368125 394496 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, sg lets you execute a command, but newgrp doesn't < 1311368126 463918 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that, mathematically, something can't work, but I can't figure out what's wrong with my idea of how to do it < 1311368127 546784 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so sg is redundant < 1311368131 114851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sg appears to have a better name and slightly more options < 1311368131 313305 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the shell does that job with newgrp < 1311368137 829788 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see the flaw that I know must be there < 1311368139 941213 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes but we deserve that name more >:| < 1311368142 959738 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, back to reading about 12DL8 < 1311368144 884248 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sigh what is it < 1311368155 741173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who do I complain to about design flaws in UNIX? < 1311368165 633294 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, actually, I'm currently rethinking it in terms of something simpler < 1311368182 214234 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wish I knew < 1311368189 786949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, sg has an amateurish manpage < 1311368193 291865 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd have a nice cup of tea and a sit down with them < 1311368194 568754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like it's trying to justify its existence < 1311368196 98131 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And talk for about three days < 1311368208 127929 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :User Commands 02/14/2011 SG(1) < 1311368209 530852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which is specified by POSIX? < 1311368220 176014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also contains typos, like "doesnt" < 1311368292 268114 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Derp, that was obvious < 1311368390 853474 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I thought maybe you could enumerate through all uncountably infinite states of an infinite 2d binary grid by starting at one point, on and off, then expanding it, etc. I finally realized that those are counting through finite pieces of the grid, not the actual infinite grid < 1311368397 570474 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can be slow sometimes < 1311368413 617622 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_X < 1311368452 171400 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I had to rephrase that in terms of 1d before I got it :( < 1311368491 104762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were you trying to count? the polyset of R**2? < 1311368494 979159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*powerset < 1311368499 809541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if polyset is even a real word < 1311368529 502150 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fairness, the motivating thoughtss were in terms of Game of Life, where even on an infinite grid, any particular finite subgrid, at any particular finite time, could only have been influenced by a finite area around it < 1311368602 307198 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't do struct foo = ((struct foo){...}) in C99, right? < 1311368606 664671 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be struct foo = {...} < 1311368608 54380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a countable number of black/white colored 2D grids that have only finitely many black squares, I think < 1311368615 464644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think you can, actually < 1311368622 301720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can put any expression you like as an initializer < 1311368637 702130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the difference between putting a struct initializer there and a struct constant there, but I think they're both legal < 1311368652 843493 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ISTR it not working, but -- oh, I rememberw hat was wrong < 1311368655 239819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo = {} is almost certainly more efficient, though < 1311368657 161208 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do < 1311368658 730785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or equal < 1311368662 697262 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo = {a,b,{c,d}} < 1311368664 76167 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't do < 1311368668 984652 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo = {a,b,(struct bar){c,d}) < 1311368670 973699 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct foo = {a,b,(struct bar){c,d}} < 1311368671 790663 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311368672 392856 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 QUIT :Changing host < 1311368672 590746 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1311368672 950005 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whatever reason < 1311368679 423797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because semantically, ((struct foo){...}) should make a new struct then copy < 1311368687 130044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, the reason there is that it doesn't know what type the outside struct should be < 1311368720 926819 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, howso? < 1311368737 586003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because C isn't like Perl, context comes from the inside not the outside < 1311368747 182691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it sees type var = expression, not type var = initializer < 1311368751 457989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then doesn't know what type the expression is < 1311368756 84040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the expression itself < 1311368868 812814 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, it should be perfectly possible to make a viewer that lets you view finite pieces of a infinite GoL soup (given unbounded disk space) < 1311368871 977552 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:40:05: pikhq_, hm. what is the difference between POSIX and Unix exactly? The SuS I guess? But I haven't seen that for ages < 1311368874 783774 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SuS requires XSI < 1311368876 668981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX doesn't < 1311368880 674559 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1311368889 880205 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that's all!? < 1311368890 297427 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not efficiently, but that's not the same as impossible < 1311368898 133655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's XSI? < 1311368900 661949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, XSI isn't really that big < 1311368902 50797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a binary standard? < 1311368919 686892 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, just a handful of extra things. < 1311368920 950803 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, last I checked strdup was XSI but not POSIX < 1311368923 619532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1311368924 879125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, aha < 1311368933 756188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much everything does strdup even if it isn't standard, though < 1311368937 195779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been known to actually use it < 1311368951 767848 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure even Win32 C environments have it. < 1311368952 852398 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote pretty much everything does strdup even if it isn't standard, though I've been known to actually use it < 1311368953 547842 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1311368953 965497 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :529) pretty much everything does strdup even if it isn't standard, though I've been known to actually use it < 1311368965 735464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember if I've ever used alloca < 1311368997 935486 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: follow the standard < 1311368999 787763 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, in recent POSIX it's actually base, not XSI. < 1311369004 538774 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how was that funny < 1311369006 772556 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :strdup is still useful function, but they don't have memdup. < 1311369008 165597 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311369039 401271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: have you ever written a program in which memdup would be useful? < 1311369054 565567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find even memcpy, memset, etc, I don't use very often (although I use them occasionally) < 1311369054 763702 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose you want to look at a 5x5 piece at generation 20 < 1311369056 680135 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually, memdup could be useful with a somewhat smart libc. < 1311369065 450266 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I do not remember. < 1311369065 749851 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Namely, one that manages to get the kernel to COW it. < 1311369067 679038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: what for? < 1311369070 339781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1311369083 156329 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, just randomly generate that pieces, as well as 20 cells surrounding it at all sides, and evolve it < 1311369085 440621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would only really work for entire pages < 1311369093 991045 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Store what you use somewhere) < 1311369110 182262 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never used alloca in C, although if I write a program in LLVM, I might use it sometimes (LLVM optimizers can change alloca to SSA in some cases) < 1311369112 590112 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 5x5 piece is correct, even if the 20 cells surrounding it aren't < 1311369122 60747 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:45:02: Damn < 1311369122 263535 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:45:10: Just wrote =+ 1 instead of += 1 < 1311369124 447471 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ritchie? Is that you? < 1311369148 640597 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No reason you couldn't check to see if the memory block in question is wholy contained on pages. < 1311369152 714501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alloca does have genuine use-cases, I sort-of wish it was standard < 1311369155 214448 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:46:42: It's also LSB. < 1311369155 492575 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:46:54: Along with /dev/tty, and *nothing else*. < 1311369157 813005 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/null isn't LSB? < 1311369158 515140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*were < 1311369169 189698 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: /dev/null is as well. < 1311369169 745073 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it is. /dev/null is even POSIX < 1311369173 27401 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: We went over this. < 1311369181 867097 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever decided to make =+ to add instead of += made a stupid mistake on the day that they did so. < 1311369182 65892 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: OK :P < 1311369186 269871 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just use recursion to do alloca < 1311369203 590294 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's less useful with variable arrays, though. < 1311369203 788561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: heh, that could get a bit messy < 1311369204 700208 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that has a lot of overhead < 1311369213 245941 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even smart people make a stupid mistake sometimes... but that is how you can learn from it, too.) < 1311369213 626035 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, and might insert things in the middle < 1311369214 43245 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, incidentally, are no longer guaranteed in C. < 1311369222 169276 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it would work for linked lists I guess < 1311369228 577961 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I just being boring? < 1311369259 209802 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :always < 1311369278 203962 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:54:02: ais523, I believe there is an x11-framebuffer server too < 1311369285 224153 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xfbdev from XDrive, now standard Xorg < 1311369285 422220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: which version did they remove them in? < 1311369289 591352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: thanks < 1311369296 666309 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable arrays? < 1311369301 678457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311369313 495139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Wesnoth was a little buggy running in framebuffer, though; it was leaving cursor droppings < 1311369316 639037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: presumably VLAs < 1311369343 245556 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : at least Wesnoth was a little buggy running in framebuffer, though; it was leaving cursor droppings <-- that was not Xfbdev I think < 1311369347 880510 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why is qemu not suitable for your purpose, btw? < 1311369352 419869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it wasn't, it was SDL < 1311369354 13917 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, rather it was probably SDL's fbcon backend < 1311369354 212307 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could give you a controlled environment < 1311369355 848655 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1311369359 756546 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: C1X has variable length arrays as an optional feature, not mandatory. < 1311369360 451995 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is most levels of indirection you have used? < 1311369365 402792 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C pointers? < 1311369366 752236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that would give too much away < 1311369370 626416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just say I tried < 1311369384 569547 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I hate you so much < 1311369391 367976 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This because some implementors really struggled with it, and even refused to actually implement it. < 1311369394 45741 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how are we supposed to guess before you tell us unless you give us more hints? < 1311369400 273217 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote ais523, how are we supposed to guess before you tell us unless you give us more hints? < 1311369401 457324 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :530) ais523, how are we supposed to guess before you tell us unless you give us more hints? < 1311369405 436855 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most obviously, Microsoft. < 1311369408 224220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you aren't < 1311369409 75218 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 529 < 1311369410 297258 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1311369413 10689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, damn < 1311369415 505900 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :swap an unfunny quote for a funny one < 1311369417 138517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one was 529? < 1311369419 816205 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@p5B133F30.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330] < 1311369423 799277 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you saying you used strdup < 1311369425 729060 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's actually a decent chance that Microsoft will implement C1X, though. < 1311369425 927051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311369429 848317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, that isn't too funny < 1311369438 247055 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, why was that one unfunny. < 1311369446 740402 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with the *mandatory* features being not that much on top of what they'll need for C++0x. < 1311369447 930373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft not implementing C99 will marginalise them in the communities that care about C99 < 1311369448 903173 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems some of the features of C1X that are made optional are some features of C99 that I don't like. Is that partially it? < 1311369450 573226 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was still somewhat funny < 1311369450 932567 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because it didn't have any comedic elements < 1311369456 215208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, umm, people looking for a FORTRAN replacement, mostly < 1311369463 262927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it had one, which wasn't very good < 1311369472 728556 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What features of C1X are not optional features? < 1311369480 696704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was implying that I only used library functions which had passed some sort of Ais523 Approval Test^TM < 1311369484 971922 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: presumably quite a lot < 1311369488 146959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I imagine things like addition < 1311369491 790863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it did. It would be like ais523 torrenting something almost < 1311369493 327294 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: functions, perhaps? < 1311369507 939056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what, using strdup? < 1311369511 105838 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1311369511 304390 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, addition, functions, etc. I mean any C99 features and new features < 1311369523 503357 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:08:18: what /is/ the plan 9 protocol exactly? < 1311369523 701532 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9P < 1311369524 554912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :99% OF USES OF STRDUP ARE ILLEGAL! < 1311369524 777530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would you torrent using strdup < 1311369530 628509 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, *aha* < 1311369530 906274 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not things such as addition and function < 1311369531 602023 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Unicode, anonymous structs and unions, alignment specification, type-generic expressions. < 1311369540 880914 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you misparsed my sentence < 1311369544 166589 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote 99% OF USES OF STRDUP ARE ILLEGAL! < 1311369545 383796 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :530) 99% OF USES OF STRDUP ARE ILLEGAL! < 1311369547 159782 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh.... right < 1311369554 59022 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, now that one wasn't very funny :P < 1311369554 946060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to guess at what "it" in your sentence referred to < 1311369565 372250 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: So, in large part features most compilers already *have*. < 1311369571 443405 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anonymous structs and unions are useful I have used it a lot. < 1311369572 370333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the quote < 1311369582 128189 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it was ais acting very out of character, when taken out of context < 1311369584 847449 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's also absurd < 1311369588 745376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, yes < 1311369591 717159 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the flag of Hawaii still has a Union Jack on it for some reason. < 1311369593 258596 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, therefore, quotable < 1311369595 940841 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for reasons other than humour < 1311369597 573230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it's only funny out of context < 1311369597 990831 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah, and static assertions. < 1311369602 771983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but agreed < 1311369607 476507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, yeah mine was quotable too < 1311369607 682418 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And gone is gets. < 1311369612 340956 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, shut up < 1311369616 598868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the allcaps are a giveaway that it was meant to be in a context < 1311369617 816313 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/MthxxLrd < 1311369618 94954 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never win quote wars, stop trying < 1311369620 857862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, for stylistic reasons < 1311369627 390837 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're like asiekierka trying to set the topic to something idiotic < 1311369630 119881 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :this hack is quite nice < 1311369632 293240 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :cto < 1311369633 62980 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, no I don't do that < 1311369633 758551 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, would you just shut up OK. < 1311369634 454163 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know it's not going to work < 1311369642 740729 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are 99% uses of strdup which are illegal? < 1311369651 179353 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never have you added a disputed quote that was even vaguely amusing. < 1311369653 355433 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: strdup can be used to transfer illegal material across the internet < 1311369658 584319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: who does "you" refer to there? < 1311369665 267105 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: {asiekierka,Vorpal} < 1311369670 291646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1311369710 806534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sufficiently advanced operating system probably could do network access with strdup < 1311369716 823074 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think 99% uses of strdup necessarily has anything to do with internet at all < 1311369732 538952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you've pretty much completely missed the context < 1311369736 167796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would take too long to explain < 1311369742 365384 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1311369763 379325 :confab!180a3cb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.10.60.185 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311369772 561064 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :confabulations < 1311369777 157295 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that's a word??? < 1311369789 324991 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/MthxxLrd http://pastebin.com/MthxxLrd http://pastebin.com/MthxxLrd < 1311369790 105926 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg it is. < 1311369791 399883 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it successfully confabulated you < 1311369804 32217 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :with zzo < 1311369906 960082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many people here know of the sendfile(2) system call? < 1311369909 127377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks really interesting < 1311369918 142852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wonder if cp is implemented in terms of it < 1311369927 586847 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not GNU cp, at least. < 1311369938 294847 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It implements a complex buffering scheme on top of stdio. < 1311369941 640771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity it's nonportable (it's in the category of "widely implemented but not with the same semantics on every platform", like ptrace) < 1311369948 889694 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : how many people here know of the sendfile(2) system call? < 1311369949 499886 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone < 1311369954 593656 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used in every web server ever < 1311369971 861503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense < 1311369997 888736 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and < 1311369998 86895 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Presently (Linux 2.6.9): in_fd, must correspond to a file which supports < 1311369998 284966 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : mmap(2)-like operations (i.e., it cannot be a socket); and out_fd must refer < 1311369998 285143 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : to a socket. < 1311370002 286123 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so you can't do cp or anything with it < 1311370007 902782 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a really stupid restriction, though < 1311370008 252754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's ridiculous < 1311370034 462656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed that bit < 1311370063 622277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's all rage at stupid restrictions on sendfile for a bit < 1311370113 620259 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it probably exploits some property of sockets < 1311370118 395750 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously uses memory mapping to read from the FD < 1311370130 392454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, thus the "must be mmapable" restriction < 1311370145 364564 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but it would avoid buffer copying and syscall overhead, I suppose, even without those restrictions < 1311370159 814416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I bet the kernel would be faster at copying one fd to another than userspace would < 1311370162 478509 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have I raved yet today about how syscalls are the cost of a CALL instruction in @? < 1311370172 824224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: not while I've been in here < 1311370189 612945 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: woo rave rave rave < 1311370193 35868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the benefit of using CALL over using INT? < 1311370200 882551 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: much faster < 1311370204 466123 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :syscalls are really expensive < 1311370206 213747 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :function calls arent < 1311370207 509679 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'t < 1311370220 202990 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, technically @ has no syscalls, you just get passed functions that happen to access hardware in a privileged manner < 1311370224 456849 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is that it has no syscall overhead < 1311370227 166158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: are they expensive because they use INT? or for some other reason? < 1311370234 370620 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's a context switch. < 1311370237 961851 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because interrupts are slow, I think, and because you have to copy data < 1311370239 289055 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq_ said < 1311370243 804773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you probably mean is, "system calls don't need context switches" < 1311370249 820269 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1311370250 113323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a better thing to rave about < 1311370254 581033 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To do a context switch, you have to flush the pipeline and the page table. < 1311370257 542445 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm no OS guy, unfortunately; not yet < 1311370270 222150 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, hence, the cache. < 1311370275 4221 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: incidentally, a _lot_ of Synthesis' speed improvements came from optimising the kernel<->user space transition < 1311370279 785254 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT NOT AS MUCH AS @ DOES < 1311370287 625573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : /* The whole purpose of this file is for GDB and GDB only. Don't read too much into it. Don't use it for anything other than GDB unless you know what you are doing. */ < 1311370300 28695 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do those warnings ever stop anyone? < 1311370307 297393 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1311370319 112141 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've all but given up on access restrictions of any kind in programming, because nobody ever cares about them < 1311370320 918575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: they didn't stop me, although they did vaguely make me want to look at GDB source as that's the only place I was going to get decent documentation < 1311370332 384444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the end, I looked at various other sources, including the kernel's < 1311370334 141957 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although some are necessary for security (<-- @ view of things showing through) < 1311370359 869686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it really means is "we don't think anything important but gdb is going to use this code, so we aren't going to bother to document it" < 1311370365 636230 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you don't want any old code getting the "cast a bunch of bytes into an arbitrary type" function < 1311370373 901387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was a pain to work out what it did, as a result < 1311370377 556404 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you could construct a safe pointer-accessor object pointing to some privileged code < 1311370379 330554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a really really system-specific file, anyway < 1311370383 443890 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cast it to a pointer-accessor < 1311370392 320819 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use it to get a hold of e.g. the send byte to port function < 1311370403 540683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that sounds a bit like Java's security model < 1311370414 735703 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Java doesn't use capability security, AFAIK < 1311370422 918572 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ is practically based around it < 1311370435 917588 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because its native means of execution is basically arbitrary remote code execution < 1311370442 50183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it theoretically uses SecurityManager, which is designed around capabilities, it just makes a hash of it < 1311370448 493389 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you just reference an object that happens to not be on your computer, and it fetches it from the @ternet) < 1311370464 175757 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it could be a game of Asteroids, say) < 1311370467 139583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct user_regs_struct { long int ebx; long int ecx; long int edx; long int esi; long int edi; long int ebp; long int eax; long int xds; long int xes; long int xfs; long int xgs; long int orig_eax; long int eip; long int xcs; long int eflags; long int esp; long int xss; }; < 1311370468 251385 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it'd run and display as native code) < 1311370472 588084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most system-specific struct ever? < 1311370475 749109 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: this means that I basically have Flash but better) < 1311370486 809813 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can embed games into a page, and they're exactly identical to native-code games) < 1311370487 7638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: or ActiveX but less broken? < 1311370490 381526 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, indeed < 1311370501 136866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using that struct < 1311370505 447263 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also kind of like the original web browser in that there's no local/remote distinction < 1311370506 407763 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ouch < 1311370510 99098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get at the arguments to syscalls, which are in registers at the time < 1311370530 88014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux only allows six arguments to a syscall, because then it runs out of registers < 1311370543 825066 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I take it that @ isn't based around arbitrary *machine code* execution, though. < 1311370550 732462 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why not just use __asm__? < 1311370557 474986 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well, no < 1311370561 648609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: for what? < 1311370567 956291 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to get at the args to a syscall in a different process < 1311370569 952148 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to get at registers < 1311370572 654047 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1311370573 761523 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :h < 1311370587 420163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm looking for the context-switched-out copy of the registers, not the current process registers < 1311370599 552879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole file is about grabbing the context that's been switched out of a process < 1311370638 496362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's different for x86 and x64 for that reason (I'm aiming at x86 for the time being) < 1311370653 627640 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x64" < 1311370654 885031 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't < 1311370660 167231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: sorry < 1311370667 420856 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I hope there's an Intel chip actually ending in that < 1311370673 33134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the platform needs some name < 1311370674 702461 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can talk about it and confuse people < 1311370686 385585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should call their 64-b < 1311370687 799174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct user_regs_struct < 1311370689 302029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1311370690 882969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int ebx; < 1311370692 320071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int ecx; < 1311370693 761011 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int edx; < 1311370694 137556 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I usually say x86-64, because it's official enough, generic, and underscores are ugly < 1311370695 315406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int esi; < 1311370696 850744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int edi; < 1311370698 293194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int ebp; < 1311370699 764098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int eax; < 1311370701 297837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int xds; < 1311370702 775812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int xes; < 1311370704 331058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int xfs; < 1311370705 777255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int xgs; < 1311370707 306929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int orig_eax; < 1311370708 834938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int eip; < 1311370710 319069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int xcs; < 1311370711 863927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int eflags; < 1311370713 359394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int esp; < 1311370714 881241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : long int xss; < 1311370716 272758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :}; < 1311370717 872973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, what just happened? < 1311370719 393591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I accidentally paste a 20-line struct? < 1311370719 592299 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm annoyed at you for being ais523, because Vorpal would have whined at anyone else by now < 1311370720 769118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, sorry < 1311370723 822181 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I don't mind < 1311370736 633275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts a single letter on the clipboard < 1311370741 978421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just in case it happens again < 1311371012 879487 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311371026 284670 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually my D&D character also speaks Thesk language (due to being slavery there (do you like to nest parentheses this much? (I don't know)))) < 1311371029 859445 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311371047 955224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1311371092 170800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I nested parentheses like that in the C-INTERCAL manual once < 1311371098 450235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as a joke, not because it was useful < 1311371138 195363 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In what part of the manual? < 1311371147 477348 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let x = "Maybe. " ++ show [var x] in x < 1311371149 682631 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1311371154 726356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I can't remember < 1311371159 687781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it mentioned recursion, but I'm not sure why < 1311371163 403399 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMBDABOOOOOT < 1311371170 211451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could search the manual for ))), it would probably find the relevant section quite quickly < 1311371194 233021 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :who gave you the boot < 1311371320 8969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : > let x = "Maybe. " ++ show [var x] in x < 1311371322 94053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this meant to be? < 1311371325 86975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. [Maybe. [...? < 1311371336 649734 :quintopi1!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311371372 507924 :quintopi2!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311371467 288142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: I'm annoyed at you for being ais523, because Vorpal would have whined at anyone else by now <-- what? < 1311371478 962726 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311371572 689705 :quintopi1!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 QUIT :Client Quit < 1311371596 870892 :quintopi2!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 QUIT :Client Quit < 1311371648 957775 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes. < 1311371677 818878 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm probably the var should be at the outside. < 1311371696 444766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> var (show "x") < 1311371705 462001 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho hum < 1311371728 150315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1311371853 588245 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1311372046 159657 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"JavaScript must be enabled in your browser to display the table of contents." < 1311372054 568896 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On an Opa book) < 1311372070 605038 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's.. not encouraging to any beliefs that you gracefully degrade < 1311372197 727023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :opa sucks < 1311372240 730483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is opa? yet another active worlds? < 1311372266 991605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311372276 750599 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because it's more specialized than Ur, which allows for more than just web stuff, or for other reasons too? < 1311372295 672925 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's like Ur without the only thing that makes Ur interesting, i.e. the type and module system < 1311372351 492606 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm interested in the web stuff < 1311372381 43580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe im allowed to say opa sucks regardless < 1311372938 540248 :CakeProphet!~adam@h107.18.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311372939 53187 :CakeProphet!~adam@h107.18.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1311372939 251555 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1311373322 998681 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311373460 979347 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1311373490 587492 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311373872 544321 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have read of the Gnostica game using tarot cards and Icehouse pyramids. Can a similar (but different) game be made using Fanucci cards? And maybe instead of Icehouse you can use some different kind of board, too. < 1311374014 45725 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1311375454 991227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo < 1311375456 201163 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :531) Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo < 1311375491 264805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those weren't non-sequiturs! < 1311375501 202807 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither was this banana < 1311375513 282422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 531 < 1311375514 660535 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1311375519 84829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo On which note, I'm hungry < 1311375520 327742 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :531) Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo On which note, I'm hungry < 1311375525 129121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :( Ha. Note) < 1311375532 857433 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311375545 789670 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the second accidental pun I've made in the past five minutes < 1311375582 772078 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well please drop that pun before you hurt any more people < 1311375596 175895 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im hurt < 1311375607 896267 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shoe size is a UK 11" "11+25=36" "36/12=3" "That means my feet are about a foot long" "...Handy" < 1311375608 731392 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives monqy the banana < 1311375627 216281 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :joy < 1311375636 848935 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think your feet is supposed to be about a foot long, that is why they made up a foot measurement, isn't it? < 1311375649 88179 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311375657 841829 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The foot measurement is arbitrary and silly. Something about some king or other < 1311375667 763649 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the Yard? < 1311375687 320992 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Yard is busy with a scandal. Let's leave them out of this < 1311375693 112716 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Yes, I think it might be the king's foot size, they measured, and that is approximately one foot. < 1311375693 390046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: is it cold there its cold here < 1311375697 912023 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topical humoUr < 1311375726 870644 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's 100˚F here < 1311375739 147864 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heat wave _-_ < 1311375749 36343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol texans < 1311375767 431210 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :New Hampshire, actually < 1311375778 279944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1311375781 105813 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :New Hampshire? < 1311375783 315374 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was your freenode sevrer location < 1311375788 454369 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's in New Hampshire! < 1311375794 310799 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, right? < 1311375796 968592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't new hampshire the one with all the stupid libertarians trying to make a ~free state~ < 1311375804 117135 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Bill Bryson lives there < 1311375806 812239 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, there are like 5 of those < 1311375808 582805 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or lived there or something < 1311375816 653388 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's Quebec < 1311375818 320005 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Bill Bryson lives in Massachusetts, now. He used to live here, though < 1311375822 275034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: but it's _one_ of them < 1311375832 194924 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIVE FREE OR DIE < 1311375833 758576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://freestateproject.org/ < 1311375834 314240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311375835 955770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :new hampshire < 1311375842 432780 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: its suny here < 1311375851 969128 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's night-y here < 1311375852 167036 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, those people < 1311375864 787541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are your social services like what with your lack of decent taxation and all :P < 1311375865 220780 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: foggy mornigsn though not cold nice though i like foggy i like cold i wish it were colder < 1311375877 462640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: what tepermature was ite; < 1311375883 896686 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Better than most of the country, actually < 1311375887 832204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like cold but it makes my body parts cold and that makes walking hard < 1311375896 987278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: good job usa < 1311375905 98350 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ihave no theremometre < 1311375915 447914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: tr;y using google < 1311375922 700243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :; is the best key to typo with imo < 1311375931 492317 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its good < 1311375931 770479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=723&bih=658&q=temperature+where+monqy+is&oq=temperature+where+monqy+is&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5183l10342l0l10493l34l23l2l8l8l0l247l1768l1.9.2l12 < 1311375934 258882 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :permature theremin < 1311375939 464378 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have completed my thereminometer, which measures the number of theremins in a 50 foot radius. Current reading: 1 < 1311375941 796527 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theremometre? < 1311375964 527913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: theremin buddies o/ < 1311375969 360296 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :19 degres it lokes like??? not too bad????? < 1311375971 105307 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be nigh-impossible to make Massachusetts a "libertarian paradise". < 1311375973 247347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you never play yours too < 1311375976 330207 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: we are clearly asymptotically approaching a spelling singularity < 1311375981 143845 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with the People's Republic of Cambridge and all. < 1311375983 289487 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I actually do, sometimes < 1311375989 804955 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it is like eleven degrees in here or something < 1311376023 360132 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that it has reached #esoteric, there cannot be much time left < 1311376049 461403 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no its just me and monqy we don't lieke keybwords they do what we dont want them to be oding a lot < 1311376061 358814 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*alot < 1311376065 95436 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: thanks you < 1311376089 603588 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's what you _think_, but it is spreading < 1311376102 228368 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's Staffordshire again? < 1311376111 622324 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, how far South? < 1311376115 215794 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in about a year and a half, it reaches critical mass < 1311376127 845081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: birmingham < 1311376129 163281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aisland < 1311376129 620737 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It's in the middle < 1311376135 985568 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1311376139 445273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :west midlands < 1311376144 440301 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire < 1311376171 218624 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: why drag the poor alot into this < 1311376187 320392 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The alots know what they did to deserve it < 1311376198 805114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip alots < 1311376222 849625 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip alots? that's just horribly cruel < 1311376235 455757 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sir Rip-Alot < 1311376253 844515 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could you be so mean to alots? < 1311376270 690886 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn blood pressure... < 1311376273 257573 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's too low < 1311376287 817081 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I react badly to changes in altitude < 1311376299 584805 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, headaches < 1311376300 140427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb is irc from everest < 1311376309 658506 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been smoking for four years, and my blood pressure is in the good range. I presume that this makes me better than science < 1311376310 821970 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :changes in altitude make my ears anoying < 1311376312 870815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it cold there Taneb too am i the only cold person in hexham < 1311376314 329955 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: hq_> How could you be so mean to alots? < 1311376318 494947 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:11 Tanewat < 1311376321 502378 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :smokeing is bad for you... < 1311376329 370025 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Apparently not *that* bad < 1311376331 878061 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was not a good cut and paste < 1311376332 156431 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :long cancer < 1311376339 497746 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not that cold, but I have a warm house < 1311376348 91808 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should try pushing ^C < 1311376358 791223 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries < 1311376361 635406 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, it's pretty cold outside < 1311376373 631298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people smoke it has like the most boring effect of any drug < 1311376389 701644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it makes me feel a bit better i GUESS" WRONG you're just a lameo who picked the wrong addiction < 1311376390 602243 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Because it's cool, of course < 1311376392 871699 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eggar's saying the wind's coming from the West, so it may get warmer < 1311376396 500556 :confab!180a3cb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.10.60.185 PART :#esoteric < 1311376398 507614 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not an addict < 1311376401 554329 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a luxury item < 1311376402 183608 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should put different warnings on the packets < 1311376403 637989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WARNING: LAMEST DRUG < 1311376407 740600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :noboyd would buy it < 1311376407 938167 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^ < 1311376413 896282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOESN'T EVEN DO THAT MUCH < 1311376423 141696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :KNOWN BY THE STATE OF WHEREVER TO BE A WASTE OF MONEY PRETTY MUCH < 1311376437 151658 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET WEED INSTEAD? < 1311376439 895283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely < 1311376442 41946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S NOT TAXED < 1311376471 298480 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you take the unofficial danger tax as a tax < 1311376489 267218 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1311376489 502036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the title of the page it says "Well-Typed - The Haskell Consultants" but i want to know who are the haskell conraisins? < 1311376492 810827 :ghoulmaster!~ghoulmast@254.sub-174-252-52.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311376516 98397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghoulmaster: hello < 1311376523 863060 :ghoulmaster!~ghoulmast@254.sub-174-252-52.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey elliott < 1311376544 146062 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds the new nicks suspicious < 1311376548 234794 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They try to sell you overpriced dried grapes, claiming that they're functional < 1311376550 426748 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taos has been here before < 1311376554 802480 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311376557 217470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghoulmaster: hello we are about programming < 1311376558 183087 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell conraisinjs? < 1311376559 732319 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: have I now? < 1311376560 434778 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote in the title of the page it says "Well-Typed - The Haskell Consultants" but i want to know who are the haskell conraisins? < 1311376561 869144 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :532) in the title of the page it says "Well-Typed - The Haskell Consultants" but i want to know who are the haskell conraisins? < 1311376567 735628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: get it, sultanas < 1311376576 259563 :ghoulmaster!~ghoulmast@254.sub-174-252-52.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i know < 1311376576 930858 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sultans < 1311376585 532751 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of swing? < 1311376594 756788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghoulmaster: ok, lots of people don't :P < 1311376607 200264 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, this is about programming?~ < 1311376613 59823 :ghoulmaster!~ghoulmast@254.sub-174-252-52.myvzw.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: lol i could see that with the name... < 1311376618 360494 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought this was a comparative literature channel < 1311376624 511111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghoulmaster: precisely < 1311376631 258410 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? I thought this was to do with elephants < 1311376640 325811 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember coming here before < 1311376643 97068 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Comparative algorithmically-generated literature channel. < 1311376653 902268 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, isn't it? < 1311376656 265090 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Ah, of course. The veil lifts < 1311376665 374643 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck derivative party channel < 1311376682 837387 :Somelauw!~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw JOIN :#esoteric < 1311376688 840357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok _who_ mentioned us and where < 1311376693 822892 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell again? < 1311376701 243684 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the conraisins are about raisin money < 1311376702 872834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1311376703 570120 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1311376710 714129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mentioned us in #nethack once, I think < 1311376710 992378 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck has disappointing few brains and barely any fucks < 1311376716 859042 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read it as "raisin monqy" and got real confused < 1311376731 660908 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Barely any == 0? < 1311376738 915074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: s/disappointing/disappointingly/ < 1311376741 417242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can addquote it without lying < 1311376743 236339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :plz < 1311376743 716198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1311376744 996368 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I ever get laid because of brainfuck, that will be the real brainfuck < 1311376762 200364 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: its worked for me < 1311376767 168260 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8)))) < 1311376771 850655 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY MIND < 1311376774 214103 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: I can spell your name in + and > and < and - < 1311376775 340364 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if it's with a human heart < 1311376777 602203 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :now shag me? < 1311376782 429163 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a book about esolangs < 1311376783 761152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: surely you mean brain < 1311376786 762502 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/esoteric-programming-languages-books-llc/1022380853?ean=9781155349770&itm=1&usri=brainfuck < 1311376793 534037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: omg no that was my calling < 1311376796 596511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by Books LLC? < 1311376798 799802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am suspicious of this < 1311376803 840135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm going to buy it anyway < 1311376814 40902 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice overview too < 1311376815 942565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet it's wikipedia < 1311376821 612009 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Purchase includes free access to book updates online and a free trial membership in the publisher's book club where you can select from more than a million books without charge. < 1311376825 807287 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mean what I say < 1311376830 761900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the description is from wikipedia < 1311376845 889218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also esolangs... wtf < 1311376848 107051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who copied who < 1311376858 724636 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a wild guess < 1311376867 811931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: no, it is _quite possible_ wp copied us, which is legal < 1311376870 625598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way around is not < 1311376887 158876 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I meant the book < 1311376889 73411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the contents are an exact match with the Wikipedia category, I think that's it < 1311376904 457000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the articles < 1311376926 785845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the excerpt is an exact match with Wikipedia < 1311376929 296778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311376933 208770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I suspect it is indeed a Wikipedia excerpt book < 1311376933 879778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that text is not actually in the eoslangs article < 1311376934 348057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311376936 291161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just in the google summary < 1311376937 226271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1311376945 212189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I kind of still want to own it :) < 1311376949 140025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for that cover < 1311376967 7731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably an autogenerated cover < 1311376967 242914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it worth 12 pounds????? we report, you decide < 1311376971 244439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: precisely < 1311376978 703079 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll bet it's printed on toilet paper and recycled newsprint < 1311376980 900278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that it lists Esoteric Programming Language as a language < 1311376982 12126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you go from ISBN → Amazon link? < 1311376988 822230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: YES I WANT IT BECAUSE IT IS BAD OK < 1311377026 800365 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just cooked my own brainfuck interpreter < 1311377027 268186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/s?search-alias=stripbooks&field-isbn=1155349776 < 1311377032 507651 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, I see no GFDL on that Barns an dNoble page < 1311377041 7514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, Special:Booksources < 1311377044 594595 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip :( < 1311377054 689020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i have to buy it from barnes and noble then < 1311377056 880786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a no-results-found on Amazon, though < 1311377066 909791 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/Esoterics-Websters-Quotations-Facts-Phrases/dp/0546763294/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311376994&sr=1-1 what the fuck < 1311377067 107756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/Esoteric-Programming-Languages-Kvikkalkul-Instruction/dp/images/1155349776 --Google < 1311377070 534152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site --Amazon < 1311377075 214913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO IS RIGHT???? < 1311377078 701290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively: http://books.google.com/books?id=kHOLSQAACAAJ&dq=isbn:1155349776&hl=en&ei=ngYqTtqMLdTE8QPPsvH-Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA < 1311377082 799290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1311377092 940000 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" This is not an encyclopedic book, but rather a collage of statements made using the word "esoterics," or related words (e.g. inflections, synonyms or antonyms)." < 1311377095 341080 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PART :#esoteric < 1311377099 661230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "related books" there is suspicious < 1311377105 144534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: heh, lol < 1311377106 997834 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, just... random sentences that have the word "esoteric" < 1311377108 154840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like another generated thing < 1311377117 750263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the editorial decision to include or exclude terms is purely a computer-generated linguistic process." < 1311377125 814140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, "esoterics" < 1311377130 650640 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How very esoteric < 1311377132 480143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, esoteric too < 1311377134 801219 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1311377137 787227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1311377140 34907 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to buy this too.... < 1311377141 853682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's forty pages < 1311377142 531306 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311377153 149954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also buy a copy of "Non-English-Based Programming Languages: Brainfuck, Plankalkül, Befunge, Rapira, Malbolge, Non-English-Based Programming Languages, False" < 1311377155 361073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Price: £27.50 & this item Delivered FREE in the UK with Super Saver Delivery. See details and conditions < 1311377155 967824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :o;h < 1311377163 465242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: god dammit why are there so many books i want??????? < 1311377168 529065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait omg Plankalkül?? < 1311377173 998928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1311377178 503803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why would you buy books that were that autogenerated? < 1311377182 357099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it include that one with "GRUNNUR"; < 1311377182 555318 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, goodnight folks < 1311377185 575616 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should make a program to write novels for me..........make$$$$$$$$ < 1311377185 773057 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a wiki book? < 1311377189 142179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fjolnir < 1311377192 446049 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1311377199 162499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry Fjölnir < 1311377202 288101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg it's in the category < 1311377203 564384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet it does < 1311377205 205108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg omg omg i want it < 1311377210 734771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WANT ALL THE SHITTY BOOKS < 1311377219 62819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: calm down < 1311377230 471524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i can;t im onverhwlemed < 1311377235 542187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cries < 1311377239 403125 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1311377246 856027 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric : ____ _ _ < 1311377247 53982 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric : / ___| ___ ___ __| | |__ _ _ ___ < 1311377247 272745 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | _ / _ \ / _ \ / _` | '_ \| | | |/ _ \ < 1311377247 470960 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |_| | (_) | (_) | (_| | |_) | |_| | __/ < 1311377247 471126 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric : \____|\___/ \___/ \__,_|_.__/ \__, |\___| < 1311377249 349054 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric : |___/ < 1311377256 10465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1311377265 1285 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1311377276 252322 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose your not in a terminal < 1311377276 486774 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taos: you too < 1311377290 241502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about my not in a terminal < 1311377292 673075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a variable-width font for IRC < 1311377296 887789 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :means me pumping figlet into the shell does nothing for you < 1311377299 57792 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says Goodbye, btw < 1311377299 613341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which technically has nothing to do with whether I'm in a terminal or not < 1311377304 701633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taos: it doesn't pump into /our/ shell < 1311377308 376999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although my terminal's fixed-width as it would otherwise be hard to play NetHack < 1311377309 905811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pumps into yours < 1311377311 573212 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why does it say goodbye........................... < 1311377323 10299 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I got bored and wanted to say that < 1311377326 572233 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311377326 770042 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, he's surrounded #esoteric with TNT < 1311377327 155325 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1311377333 840489 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :double ok < 1311377341 531264 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: its demo time < 1311377356 368550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is figlet some sort of alternative version of banner(1)? < 1311377360 555919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that uses a less overblown font? < 1311377363 956168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1311377367 334118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are people who don't know what figlet is? < 1311377371 653865 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1311377374 308540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :figlet is basically super-general banner < 1311377377 756278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has font files, etc. < 1311377400 38104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.figlet.org/ < 1311377409 262139 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the first thing I install < 1311377415 253796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taos: not cowsay? :( < 1311377429 925939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I made a major discovery today: pressing / in the Gnome file chooser dialog box makes it actually add a textbox you can type the filename in < 1311377433 40386 :Somelauw!~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1311377433 238165 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thats second < 1311377443 564747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really makes that dialog box about 50% less stupid < 1311377449 1274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@katia:~/Code/mcmap$ figlet im cow | cowsay < 1311377449 199318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : _________________________________________ < 1311377449 199504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :| \ / __/ _ \ \ /\ / / | | | | | | | | | < 1311377449 199606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :| (_| (_) \ V V / |_|_| |_| |_| \___\___/ | < 1311377450 368589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ \_/\_/ / < 1311377452 429960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ----------------------------------------- < 1311377453 487627 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ _ < 1311377453 765390 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : __| | ___ __ _ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ __ _ ___ __| | < 1311377453 963524 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : / _` |/ _ \ / _` |/ _ \/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ / __|/ _ \/ _ \ / _` |/ _ \ / _` | < 1311377453 963690 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :| (_| | (_) | | (_| | __/ __/\__ \ __/ \__ \ __/ __/ | (_| | (_) | (_| | < 1311377453 963791 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : \__,_|\___/ \__, |\___|\___||___/\___| |___/\___|\___| \__, |\___/ \__,_| < 1311377454 599263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : \ ^__^ < 1311377456 127844 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : |___/ |___/ < 1311377456 545098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : \ (oo)\_______ < 1311377458 669589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (__)\ )\/\ < 1311377460 554049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ||----w | < 1311377461 873752 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im literally dead < 1311377462 151588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : || || < 1311377462 921901 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :irl < 1311377464 17525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1311377468 930451 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay now everyone is piping into irc < 1311377470 731793 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only works if your window is wide enough < 1311377472 531053 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :my job here is done < 1311377487 356800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm disappointed that the first thing you install isn't sdate < 1311377494 471362 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdate? < 1311377498 506729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3177 < 1311377506 947423 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally gotta install taht! < 1311377507 146045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries sdate ddate < 1311377514 111172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work :( < 1311377517 779455 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i can see it now < 1311377533 546259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdate is pretty good at breaking programs randomly < 1311377535 607323 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one however makes little to no sense < 1311377545 329681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdate ddate: Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3159 < 1311377557 858033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.0.4 < 1311377571 108633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the vast majority of programs assume that September is only 30 days long, and that the library function will never return anything outside that range < 1311377574 127862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHCi, version 7.0.4: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help < 1311377574 405464 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loading package ghc-prim ... linking ... done. < 1311377574 603481 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loading package integer-gmp ... linking ... done. < 1311377574 603641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loading package base ... linking ... done. < 1311377574 603741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loading package ffi-1.0 ... linking ... done. < 1311377575 100798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> Leaving GHCi. < 1311377578 440639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1311377580 449393 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why does it break programs randomly < 1311377582 449783 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today is Pungenday,the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3177 < 1311377589 67357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taos: because it uses eternal september dates < 1311377591 152354 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different time zone < 1311377591 873126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which aren't, technically, valid < 1311377596 835255 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1311377597 803404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taos: because the vast majority of programs assume that September is only 30 days long, and that the library function will never return anything outside that range < 1311377607 269604 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats odd < 1311377610 554414 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :im tired < 1311377618 265349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, only about two years until the thousandth of september < 1311377620 108020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1311377620 951036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdate's a prefix to other commands that modifies dates to just be expressed in terms of september 1993 < 1311377622 206145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, only about two years until the seven thousandth of september < 1311377628 499051 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah -- now i forget what font I was using < 1311377639 943961 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' < 1311377640 142198 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file < 1311377646 829336 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ < 1311377647 27862 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |__ _ _ ___ < 1311377647 28024 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :| '_ \| | | |/ _ \ < 1311377647 28124 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |_) | |_| | __/ < 1311377647 28220 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk PRIVMSG #esoteric :|_.__/ \__, |\___| < 1311377648 806316 :Taos!~jakob@vvps-085402.dailyvps.co.uk QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1311377653 61649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1311377654 3834 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bue < 1311377660 581455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ? < 1311377665 411513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: at his /bin/sh failure < 1311377669 164816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1311377669 658720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with his /exec line < 1311377671 848179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and his quitting too early < 1311377678 795779 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/his/gender neutral pronoun/ < 1311377682 157639 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ _ _ < 1311377682 356230 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |__ _ _ ___ | |__ _ _ ___ | |__ _ _ ___ < 1311377682 356416 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :| '_ \| | | |/ _ \ | '_ \| | | |/ _ \ | '_ \| | | |/ _ \ < 1311377682 356552 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |_) | |_| | __/ | |_) | |_| | __/ | |_) | |_| | __/ < 1311377682 356654 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :|_.__/ \__,_|\___| |_.__/ \__,_|\___| |_.__/ \__,_|\___| < 1311377682 783512 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- < 1311377684 538381 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1311377699 796563 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote bue < 1311377701 876 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :533) bue < 1311377707 154982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ais523, how much would you hate me if I violated XDG standards < 1311377709 546748 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :immprtalized < 1311377711 725928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: he didnt say bue >:| < 1311377714 325324 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHat's YOLD? < 1311377716 466563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 533 < 1311377717 631441 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1311377724 945176 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote _ | |__ _ _ ___ | '_ \| | | |/ _ \ | |_) | |_| | __/ |_.__/ \__, |\___| < 1311377726 352434 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :533) _ | |__ _ _ ___ | '_ \| | | |/ _ \ | |_) | |_| | __/ |_.__/ \__, |\___| < 1311377728 236536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: fixed that for you < 1311377731 856524 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: YOLD is the year indication for the Discordian calendar. < 1311377737 166160 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINE~ < 1311377742 529630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not sure what XDG standards are < 1311377744 459540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not sure yet < 1311377759 418264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well the one in particular is why you have a ~/.config/ directory < 1311377766 910694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, aha < 1311377767 108519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also ~/.cache, and I think ~/.local too < 1311377774 356752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed Wesnoth being changed to comply with those < 1311377777 987215 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What command is ais523 using to get that? < 1311377782 69119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's an environment variable so you can move ~/.config, it's horribly broken though < 1311377785 84340 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are there any books published about esoteric programming languages? < 1311377785 541054 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way to get regular dotfiles with it < 1311377790 295276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to reserve a directory for it < 1311377796 311452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly just ignore those standards < 1311377796 728286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm adding configuration to mcmap < 1311377797 307357 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than auto-generated < 1311377799 310277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i just want to use ~/.mcmap < 1311377800 752244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't mind whether people follow it or not < 1311377810 696733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, thanks, although it's fizzie's opinion that actually matters :P < 1311377813 971511 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Why would someone publish such a book? < 1311377819 299457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh, ddate, derp < 1311377820 551345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, programs I've worked on have used ~/.acehackrc and ~/.taeb < 1311377821 491430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cant hide from esoteric < 1311377825 839750 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: I have seen some magazine articles in some magazines about Linux. I have also seen there is a Japanese book that describes a few esolangs including one of my own. < 1311377830 135737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it wasn't me using ddate < 1311377831 712053 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think INTERCAL might have a book out there some where < 1311377833 240237 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : so are there any books published about esoteric programming languages? < 1311377833 988382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1311377836 212765 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1311377837 36042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just linked to one < 1311377839 119869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and talked about it < 1311377848 223591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't really a book about esolangs < 1311377849 949690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: which book < 1311377855 28570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure it is >:| < 1311377855 226745 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : other than auto-generated < 1311377855 960243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much as a book containing Wikipedia articles about esolangs < 1311377862 461960 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1311377868 589547 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-0-225.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311377871 199136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is a book that has a bunch of articles written by its author about esolangs not a book about esolangs? < 1311377879 422800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia's just happen to have really long author lists, that's all < 1311377882 398887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: it's not a physical book yet AFAIK, but the C-INTERCAL Revamped Reference Manual is an esolang-related book < 1311377893 266372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the author's written as "Books, LLC" < 1311377904 162461 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I forget its title although I know there is a book that parts of it describe a few esolangs including one of my own. And it is Japanese book. < 1311377904 870253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as the actual authors of the book < 1311377914 754663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pseudonym < 1311377923 146544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing that's actually illegal under the GFDL, if you make a compilation out of GFDL stuff you have to list at least five actual authors on the title page < 1311377926 481610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless there are less than five < 1311377926 679616 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and changing an author name hardly affects what a book is about < 1311377932 538648 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a bit of a pointless exercize i know < 1311377937 783895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably the CC-by-sa license is more lenient < 1311377986 293242 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a piece of trash text no doubt < 1311377989 120669 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is why, when I write a book usually I do not use the GFDL. I don't care whether or not they list the author, or how the book is organized, or whatever. They would have to change it for various purposes including different paper sizes, and so on. < 1311378001 784231 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, famous pubished author < 1311378027 187880 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What about famous pubished author? < 1311378031 277559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its you < 1311378037 191794 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? I don't think so. < 1311378044 223490 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never published a book (yet). < 1311378057 191057 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1311378112 447845 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking on the wikipedia wiki, there were printed INTERCAL manuals < 1311378128 67338 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said :D < 1311378133 637941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: yes, the original manuals were printed, and the electronic version of the manuals based on them < 1311378145 734776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proofread against the paper manuals by someone else < 1311378165 855634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm not sure if "wikipedia wiki" = Wikipedia or Wikimedia Meta-Wiki < 1311378166 446355 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice how i phrased it so that wikipedia is just a specialization of a wiki < 1311378177 489152 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you're not sure.. < 1311378187 614577 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the better for me to do such things < 1311378194 285600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as, e.g. "nethack wiki" = "wiki about NetHack" = "nethackwiki.com", I'd assume "wikipedia wiki" = "wiki about Wikipedia" = "meta.wikimedia.org" < 1311378196 915669 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If in some day, I publish some book, that might include some of the programs I have written too, but also some other books, possibly. However I never yet publish any book. < 1311378214 830731 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote If in some day, I publish some book, that might include some of the programs I have written too, but also some other books, possibly. However I never yet publish any book. < 1311378216 82083 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :534) If in some day, I publish some book, that might include some of the programs I have written too, but also some other books, possibly. However I never yet publish any book. < 1311378217 255356 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais, the "about" is a misnomer < 1311378221 896416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: that was just regular zzo < 1311378223 105395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1311378226 42205 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked it < 1311378226 950838 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311378246 532255 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see what has happened here though < 1311378248 228255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: well, would you interpret "nethack wiki" as implying that NetHack is a wiki? < 1311378248 506406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but if we addquoted everything zzo38 said... :D < 1311378258 158491 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: ok i see now... hahahha < 1311378263 772086 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's the nethack wiki wiki < 1311378285 631892 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im dead < 1311378288 165467 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: I am OK whether you put my quotations or not, it doesn't matter to me either way, but also either way I can collect them by looking at the list of the quotations that are available. < 1311378296 263535 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack which is a wiki.....is a wiki < 1311378298 420518 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311378309 695180 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo is a warrior-poet < 1311378325 295871 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name is formally "nethack wiki" and "nethack wiki" is a wiki, hence: nethack wiki wiki < 1311378337 150409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: this is really bad terminology < 1311378350 708579 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is nethack wiki wiki a wiki < 1311378351 681302 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiki wiki wiki wack < 1311378359 358326 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :west jim west < 1311378367 248540 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiki wild wild west < 1311378368 954632 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311378376 305798 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 itidus20 < 1311378395 928435 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i suppose i have created a tautology < 1311378397 268722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so scapegoat................................. < 1311378400 934351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to exist....... < 1311378408 326662 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, as does Feather < 1311378412 315506 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1311378421 461711 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as does zepto < 1311378422 176700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: agreed < 1311378432 313904 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you win < 1311378437 633304 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia it is < 1311378439 32646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :scapegoat needs to be written in zepto-feather < 1311378445 288665 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :un-zepto < 1311378464 710983 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, 0 infections found < 1311378466 996411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather would be a really really bad language to write a VCS in, I imagine < 1311378485 182390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: does that mean that your virus protection is good or your virus scanner is bad? < 1311378494 771168 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know about feather is what i read on the wiki page < 1311378497 210712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was about to ask who said he was talking about computer viruses < 1311378502 244798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I realise that you didn't imply that, either < 1311378510 787490 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thus wikipedia could be "most prolific encyclopedia wiki" vs "nethack wiki" < 1311378515 476566 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311378524 972612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can wikis be prolific < 1311378530 433830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: only with a nonstandard (but correct) definition of "or" < 1311378532 266771 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not.. < 1311378539 234491 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, the scanner is by ESET, which has a good reputation < 1311378541 890558 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: That sounds like a poor translation of an ancient Chinese manuscript < 1311378546 100636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh right, they do < 1311378549 732037 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a fallacy of some kind < 1311378551 82286 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry to burst the not-a-computer-virus buble < 1311378553 181365 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bubble < 1311378555 770577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Why? < 1311378557 8486 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancient chinese manuscript wiki wiki < 1311378569 64941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I suppose you jumped to "virus" < 1311378570 674207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :From infection < 1311378578 823497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's certainly infection protection and infection scanners in the real world < 1311378584 344270 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITT statements end in wiki wiki < 1311378601 164430 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo was inspecting his wiki wiki < 1311378601 720158 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now there is also wiki related to TeXnicard project (on Redmine), but it is currently empty (except for the file that says it is currently empty) < 1311378611 693124 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iykwim wiki wiki < 1311378615 789742 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are many encyclopedia wikis.. but wikipedia is the biggest < 1311378616 847472 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, the file is a lie! < 1311378629 497897 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I know..... but, it is mostly empty. < 1311378635 146197 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Empty wiki < 1311378652 642693 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Empty wiki wiki, a wiki cataloging empty wikis < 1311378666 6790 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also an empty wiki about wikis < 1311378684 217482 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was wrong about wiki wiki < 1311378686 616085 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just realized that one wiki can be both < 1311378687 592920 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a tautology < 1311378703 254915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im fish < 1311378709 829422 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :swim < 1311378712 454532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1311378712 871490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1311378721 38285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a leaf on the wind < 1311378725 736629 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im monqy < 1311378726 479402 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1311378730 698321 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if anyone's noticed, but me and monqy are pretty much the biggest contributors to this channel < 1311378736 539771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would you do without us??? < 1311378740 709738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how do you do a paragraph break in Markdown? < 1311378756 336026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the front page of the patch-tag wiki about AceHack accidentally got Slashdotted < 1311378759 333589 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Probably have a life < 1311378762 312139 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a blank line? I don't know. < 1311378766 745828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, there is a para break there < 1311378770 126017 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sort of a parasite on a channel, but i am great at generating randomness < 1311378771 383733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that the styling's so bad I can't see it < 1311378790 932761 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: you're like sgeo but more so. bizarro sgeo. < 1311378791 488700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: two lines < 1311378792 509416 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a blank line is a paragraph break on MediaWiki, and in TeX, too, by default. < 1311378792 920182 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly what we need here is the wiki monads and comonads < 1311378800 619271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yep, I thought it wasn't working < 1311378806 312632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: patch-tag is a really ugly website :( < 1311378809 255642 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a bad usability way < 1311378812 800484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311378815 820395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1311378825 271228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also acehack has like fifty problems, did you know, i remember telling you about them and them being dismissed :D < 1311378826 682042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just using it for hosting, really, it's not a "proper" website < 1311378831 427888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know < 1311378835 141663 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly < 1311378841 586287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly < 1311378842 886298 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :535) monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly < 1311378851 436106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last night in my dreams I was a banana... looking ghostly < 1311378855 796833 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so I can say random gibberish and get quoted for it? < 1311378858 769353 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him. < 1311378862 847179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that was funny gibberish < 1311378868 972301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him. < 1311378870 185474 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :536) itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him. < 1311378875 8343 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My lenses are made of bananas < 1311378877 371360 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with join :: Wiki (Wiki a) -> Wiki a and cojoin :: Wiki a -> Wiki (Wiki a) < 1311378883 906513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: nope, quotes are closed i'm afraid < 1311378894 697766 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't looking for a quote :P < 1311378901 903721 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy, I'm a banana. Your lenses are made out of me. < 1311378906 506418 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AGH < 1311378912 631726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, how long has that slashdot article been without comments, ais523? < 1311378914 449871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, with only two < 1311378921 446902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: probably about five minutes < 1311378924 435884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only just went up < 1311378925 289307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311378925 567351 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeouiggol < 1311378927 3118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and #junethack are panicking < 1311378929 38606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what timezone does /. use, anyway? < 1311378947 380199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: to my view, it uses my timezone < 1311378949 314016 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What /. article? < 1311378951 729416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's possibly because I'm logged in < 1311378953 912237 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: feel free to explain that one to them < 1311378956 137236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/07/22/2338215/First-NetHack-Cross-Variant-Summer-Tournament < 1311378959 567150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could start with "He's an idiot" < 1311378963 884078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I just esolanged Slashdot < 1311378968 134496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it can take the load? < 1311378974 317578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*esotericed < 1311378980 365518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolanging it would be putting it on the wiki < 1311378980 671650 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality. < 1311378994 883734 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality. < 1311378996 273649 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :537) It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality. < 1311379000 426743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how did junethack react to my brilliance.............. < 1311379007 660815 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't. < 1311379010 983414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: god bless you < 1311379015 646146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't get it < 1311379024 924055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: itidus20 is the best, any questions? < 1311379027 889362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean in channel? < 1311379029 511720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they ignored you < 1311379034 719191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311379036 606212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311379040 717504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sohuld say hi to them so they dont ignore me < 1311379043 700215 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I just tried to tell elliott that < 1311379054 476476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i accepted it < 1311379055 159891 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he just did to me what #junethack did to elliott < 1311379057 124911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, time passed < 1311379067 399276 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would anyone ignore elliott < 1311379075 577875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: self-loathing? < 1311379076 374546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that I'm an op on #junethack, so don't try anything too trollish < 1311379086 739560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: its ok ur my pal i know you wouldn't ban me or anything < 1311379120 432175 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly for no specific reason < 1311379123 423275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're acting out of character now < 1311379138 704410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm acting perfectly in character, you just don't understand the levels i operate on < 1311379162 16026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i'm done, i hope they accept my apology < 1311379166 192285 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROFUNDITY RISING < 1311379167 49747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm too embarrassed to stay there to accept it < 1311379170 345509 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants thack in june, anyway