< 1311379217 689505 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so... < 1311379233 293729 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :double cancer < 1311379233 710763 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so... < 1311379234 976314 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :538) Capitalism is a cancer. But I'm a smoker, anyway, so... < 1311379267 765901 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is socialism then? Lupus? < 1311379312 512850 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not lupus < 1311379322 523949 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. ok then. < 1311379409 272797 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Everyone else seems to be able to cope with the people they spend most of their time with." That's what I tell myself at first. But then you hear about the divorces and custardy battles. The domestic violence. Cruel managers. Tyrannical dictators. "What would I do or how would I feel if I was one of them?" < 1311379422 599503 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need to add every quote during my bizzaro rant though. < 1311379453 397677 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :now see.. if they hadn't gotten to me i could just read my sentences normally < 1311379477 827082 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :custardy battles are really gruesome things < 1311379483 478412 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i also learned about this concept of embedded suggestions, hence: "add every quote during my bizzaro rant" and "read my sentences" < 1311379492 85060 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Beat me to it < 1311379507 475584 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :not intentionally though.. it occurs in normal grammar. < 1311379541 500809 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, if you were the one on the receiving end, or the one on the giving end? < 1311379561 762964 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd probably feel pretty awesome in the latter case < 1311379590 377726 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :#junethack is a boring channel < 1311379595 608829 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardly any puns at all < 1311379609 226454 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thack _is_ boring. also it's july already. < 1311379618 435943 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :julythack < 1311379619 609967 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should rename. < 1311379650 366157 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got all my thacking done in May < 1311379698 136685 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this crowd.. and believe me there is such a crowd, is saying that people filter out logic and just see imperatives < 1311379710 673262 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least thats what they seem to be saying < 1311379728 326574 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Those are what we call "voters" < 1311379868 806193 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an xkcd comic which reminds me of what im describing < 1311379900 323956 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/842/ < 1311379936 846209 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311380099 154152 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ju is not a month < 1311380133 393753 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1311380134 136824 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the street fighter back story there is a team of evil women named after months < 1311380136 676570 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :portmantaeus don't exist < 1311380139 10834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally meant to be in June, but people decided July was better for them < 1311380155 135080 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :............................................______ __ < 1311380155 333187 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....................................,.-‘”...................``~., < 1311380155 531381 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.............................,.-”...................................“-., < 1311380155 531565 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.........................,/...............................................”:, < 1311380158 557872 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....................,?........................... ..........................., < 1311380161 560915 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.................../.................................................. .........,} < 1311380164 554000 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..} < 1311380167 670000 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.............../.................................................. .,:”........./ < 1311380170 589197 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../ < 1311380173 488721 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../ < 1311380176 15548 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/ < 1311380178 570437 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....} < 1311380181 95951 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../ < 1311380183 549723 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...,,,___.`~,......“~.,....................`..... }............../ < 1311380186 145387 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-” < 1311380188 619319 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :............/.`~,......`-...................................../ < 1311380190 989976 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.............`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....,__ < 1311380193 702609 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :,,_..........}.>-._...................................|........... ...`=~-, < 1311380196 109674 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....`=~-,__......`,................................. < 1311380198 536947 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...................`=~-,,.,............................... < 1311380201 151588 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :................................`:,,.............. .............`..............__ < 1311380204 118836 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==`` < 1311380206 584533 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :........................................_........ …_,-%…….` < 1311380209 103465 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my response < 1311380219 231138 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a whale < 1311380226 193618 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that picture of something? Of what? < 1311380226 471805 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh < 1311380226 670001 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :very like a whale < 1311380227 26560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: that's not quite the same thing as accidentally pasting a 20-line struct into the channel < 1311380251 832710 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: /facepalm < 1311380258 998509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: yeah, don't do that. < 1311380269 428852 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never again. I just realized a script I had did that < 1311380271 285251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an ardent pro-pasting activist, that's way too long < 1311380274 513992 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it facepalm? < 1311380285 262051 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it picture of facepalm? < 1311380286 628450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: would you abuse ops in #esoteric if you had them? < 1311380287 607878 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not a whale < 1311380288 25431 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1311380290 205695 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats all i know < 1311380294 791159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that I can grant them to you, I'm just curious as to the answer) < 1311380295 742290 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1311380311 336835 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Juni and Juli are members of a special unit within Shadaloo called the "Dolls", also known as Bison Elite Guard, which is composed of twelve young women brainwashed to serve as Bison's personal assassins. The twelve members of the Dolls are named after the months of the Gregorian calendar in various languages, with Juni and Juli being German for June and July. < 1311380324 19847 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: thank you, i couldn't see it before you said it < 1311380326 140040 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there even any ops in #esoteric? < 1311380327 810562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No. < 1311380329 18883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Yes. < 1311380329 296095 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :junithack, julithack < 1311380338 964568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, I mean, maybe for a joke, but not beyond that < 1311380344 876758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be hard to attract an op here sometimes < 1311380348 161725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not always < 1311380371 207347 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Op powers are only for trolling, as far as I can tell < 1311380379 308713 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As they should be < 1311380401 790135 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im bad with power i never know what to do with it < 1311380445 34746 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i was _this_ far from banning NihilistDandy < 1311380453 523078 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :T_T < 1311380454 794690 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have power in some places. Then left those places to rot < 1311380469 819608 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: temporarily mind you < 1311380474 664378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am become Sgeo destroyer of virtual worlds < 1311380486 214571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :god that was a good one < 1311380486 776267 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, since when are wikis virtual worlds? < 1311380490 835445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :stfu < 1311380500 339687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oerjan gimme ops i need to find out for sure whether i'd abuse them or not < 1311380511 99722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: NetHackWiki? < 1311380517 346005 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny guy < 1311380522 895148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i figure i'll inevitably get ops if i just stick around here long enough < 1311380527 581637 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As compensation: http://www.smbc-comics.com/#comic < 1311380528 761776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im going to be the only person here in thirty years < 1311380535 361559 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, and Creatures Wik, although I was a bit more involved there. And Superosity wiki < 1311380566 811505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I tend to randomly pick up ops in all sorts of places when I don't expect it < 1311380588 276778 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You'll be dead in 30 years. HackEgo will become self-aware and destroy all meatbags in its quote file < 1311380594 139217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't happened here, yet, even though this is one of the channels people might most expect me to be an op in (given that I'm one of the two active wiki admins, and Keymaker rarely comes here) < 1311380642 589871 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311380674 509362 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you'll get ops when oerjan becomes a wiki admin < 1311380683 374239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you already have them, enjoy! < 1311380728 520241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311380768 226590 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +q :*!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.99.21.147 > 1311380768 264549 NAMES :#esoteric < 1311380786 497222 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric -q :*!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.99.21.147 > 1311380786 517975 NAMES :#esoteric < 1311380848 352558 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I do publish any of my computer program in books, I should also included the DVD of the program in the back of the book, too. (This is one idea about literate programming, although there are others, too.) < 1311380890 58409 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, btw, is apparently the cloak of user "test" :P < 1311380900 335061 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was wondering < 1311380942 731934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: who's test < 1311380949 882563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311380950 835753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :an person < 1311380956 537738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION says hi to them < 1311380959 770956 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the poor innocent victim of my chanserv testing < 1311380971 22724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not victim, now friend!!! < 1311381005 535694 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Victim != friend? < 1311381009 641928 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been misinformed < 1311381012 149713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now wtf would it segfault /there/ < 1311381012 984302 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you /msg'ed em? < 1311381013 321640 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some calls to make < 1311381027 189055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes :D < 1311381032 154875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you ascend a scope in gdb? ais523? < 1311381040 131894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :frame number < 1311381042 446453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, frame 4 < 1311381048 537933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use bt to see a list of frame numbers < 1311381066 864435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: "Routine helps calm you down. Maybe you will talk to another friend. You talk to him every day for some reason. Though it's not exactly right to call him a friend, since you despise him. Your relationship with the fellow is difficult to describe. It should be noted that in troll language, the word for friend is exactly the same as the word for enemy." < 1311381073 403311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, it's "enemy", not "victim". < 1311381077 243397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :My tiny memory strikes again. < 1311381081 432641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: My memory is not quite tiny.) < 1311381082 781965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks < 1311381086 712238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't there "frame up" or something? < 1311381095 713446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh, nope < 1311381097 699548 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well. The sentiment is on point, at least < 1311381122 516095 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case you use the word of troll language in case you need a new word since the normal English word not exactly right, maybe. < 1311381139 646541 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print block_info[block] < 1311381139 844733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$2 = {name = 0x0, type = AIR, trait = NO_TRAIT} < 1311381141 192492 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1311381141 608927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311381148 568995 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wat < 1311381181 298154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it's a block that doesn't exist < 1311381191 739784 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, derp. I was about to complain that routing calming the guy down makes no sense, but I was mistaken as to who that applied < 1311381197 955366 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right. < 1311381217 783722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: good sgeo memory two thousand and eleven < 1311381224 404178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:32:44 [DIED] Failed to open file '/home/elliott/.mcmap/colors': No such file or directory < 1311381230 179044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, i probably shouldn't require it to exist < 1311381244 420684 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets some burger-n-ds9 < 1311381314 135139 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first part is watching unrar for 21 seconds, really boring) < 1311381338 12563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :G_FILE_ERROR_EXIST < 1311381338 290793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Operation not permitted; only the owner of the file (or other resource) or processes with special privileges can perform the operation. < 1311381338 488601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :G_FILE_ERROR_NOENT < 1311381338 488787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No such file or directory. This is a "file doesn't exist" error for ordinary files that are referenced in contexts where they are expected to already exist. < 1311381343 62930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EEXIST is a good name for that < 1311381347 228916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's EEXIST, right?) < 1311381365 585576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: then the second part is DS9 and it's even more boring :DDDDDDDdddddd oh snap < 1311381370 913824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]OH SNAP < 1311381378 680540 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : G_FILE_ERROR_EXIST < 1311381378 878452 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Operation not permitted; only the owner of the file (or other resource) or processes with special privileges can perform the operation. < 1311381385 325708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's funny because DS9 has a plot, an attribute not shared with the entire rest of star trek < 1311381387 104163 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why... call it G_FILE_ERROR_EXIST? < 1311381393 493414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: thus my lol < 1311381401 232020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its from unix wow what the fuck happened to the map < 1311381404 609106 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: both your statements are tainted by truth < 1311381410 652615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:36:36 MODE: surface긒澖缀è긒澖缀`跈Ā < 1311381412 343022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did i do < 1311381417 193413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i asian < 1311381422 597356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i broke mcmap help < 1311381436 370328 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, I'm really looking forward for this "plot" you speak of < 1311381448 266664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: how many episodes in are you??? DS9 is great < 1311381456 716533 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 10 or something < 1311381461 517507 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm assuming you meant you haven't seen plot yet < 1311381463 578232 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :season 1 ish < 1311381465 942800 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked TNG and Voyager, and DS9 is quite acceptable < 1311381469 750768 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd comment, but my opinions tend to be random relative to consensus < 1311381470 428657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: ...wow < 1311381474 242001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: You're the worst person < 1311381477 204085 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311381477 654847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm removing you from the whitelist now < 1311381481 835179 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NUUU < 1311381482 410031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think I'm joking < 1311381491 50284 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :TNG really had no plot at all, and for the most part that was a good thing < 1311381493 514134 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cries and drinks < 1311381499 771139 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Exactly < 1311381518 232120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: I'm offended by your liking of Voyager, not your ambivalence to DS9 < 1311381521 669196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really watch Star Trek enough to be able to tell one series from another < 1311381522 699031 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You'll never get ops now. Your abusive nature is revealed < 1311381523 234573 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott very quickly abuses power < 1311381532 508393 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I only watched six episodes of Voyager < 1311381534 902585 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :enterprise is currently my reference to startrek-with-plot < 1311381539 159576 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they were just six decent ones < 1311381542 23499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: OK yeah, stop saying that Voyager is an acceptable thing. < 1311381543 353275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have no idea. < 1311381556 75639 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, all right, then < 1311381562 934121 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can we at least agree that the Voyager theme is good? < 1311381569 340962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: when I watched it I was too young to know good from bad, at least wrt Star Trek < 1311381571 648048 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: lol < 1311381572 481738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's a bit boooooooooooooring. < 1311381573 735892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have only your word to go on < 1311381581 30712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is DS9's, but it's the nicer of the two boring Star Trek themes < 1311381587 660651 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Literally everyone hates Voyager :P < 1311381588 216423 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I think Enterprise hurt me a little. I couldn't watch past the third episode < 1311381589 604934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from Sgeo. < 1311381599 347573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Through a Mirror, Darkly is the only good Enterprise < 1311381607 442410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO ITS INTRO HAVE WE RAVED ABOUT ITS INTRO ENOUGH IN THIS CHANNEL YET < 1311381608 415296 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to look it up < 1311381643 616858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl5zw6fGjdA is the cool intro to In a Mirror, Darkly < 1311381662 871936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They took all the exploration scenes from the normal intro and turned them into the far superior Earth-blowing-shit-up scenes < 1311381664 424561 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat < 1311381752 380047 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was pretty cool. The music's kinda bland, though < 1311381755 291003 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blandly epic < 1311381758 713573 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEAT < 1311381775 13805 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, what the hell happened to this... < 1311381784 392476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (mode == MAP_MODE_CROSS && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_FOLLOW_Y ? " (follow)" : ""), < 1311381784 591072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (mode == MAP_MODE_SURFACE && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_CHOP ? " (chop)" : ""), < 1311381784 591267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS ? " (lights)" : ""), < 1311381784 591378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS) && (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_NIGHT) ? " (night)" : "")); < 1311381789 983155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can any of that be 긒澖缀è긒澖缀`跈Ā? < 1311381800 295094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Have you seen the normal Enterprise music. < 1311381802 543744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything is better than it. < 1311381804 385243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally anything. < 1311381810 832717 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus. < 1311381814 417865 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take your word for it < 1311381827 679919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn-lTytfGo Enjoy terrible pop song < 1311381839 968471 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHHHHHHHHHHHHH < 1311381845 379298 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this the actual intro? < 1311381847 353747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: have you tried encoding the garbage string as UTF-16, then decoding it as UTF-8? < 1311381858 762772 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT THE FUCK < 1311381861 745200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Yep. < 1311381865 561440 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T EVEN < 1311381868 64460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how it looks like a bad redub by someone on YouTube < 1311381873 588278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nope, I'm mostly trying to figure how I broke a piece of code I didn't even otuch < 1311381874 554472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch < 1311381891 13796 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top comment on that video: Hey Im kinda new to the Star Trek franchise just bought the original series on dvd watching it tonight. Now which series has Wil Wheaton in it. < 1311381894 62421 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rolfchoppa007 1 day ago < 1311381900 270222 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trolololol < 1311381900 661014 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1311381918 703850 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it has messy format strings? < 1311381925 594596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how Wil Wheaton has about the same number of likers as Wesley Crusher has haters < 1311381935 969533 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, buffer overflows? < 1311381945 616350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but i didnt tucho that biteof code < 1311381974 456980 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then maybe buffer overflows. < 1311381976 985684 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Wil Wheaton is a pretty nice guy, and Wesley Crusher is a terrible character. Simple. :) < 1311382005 266485 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1311382049 868119 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I support the Wesley Crushers. < 1311382063 648473 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm watching Troll 2 < 1311382074 237623 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS MESSAGE) < 1311382097 863460 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really get that though, wesley crusher was a likable geniusishy character, but all I've seen of wil wheaton is the big bang theory making him seem like a dick < 1311382108 581446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does use valgrind < 1311382113 432965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: wesley crusher was not likeable??? < 1311382113 988992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: for what? < 1311382115 101195 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Shh, you'll get us all killed < 1311382126 1216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for checking for memory access errors, just write valgrind before the command name < 1311382128 242785 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am saying he was < 1311382134 208380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was the accidental archetype of "smart but REALLY ANNOYING DICK" < 1311382146 302350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and his smartness was just annoying because it made no sense at all < 1311382151 376642 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: find memory corrupt < 1311382153 520355 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :okays < 1311382156 708662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, valgrind command < 1311382159 712804 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if i'm smart enough for this but HERE WE GO < 1311382160 700729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding corruption is its default setting < 1311382166 292031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also dunno if it'll like SDL < 1311382167 997990 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: People get annoyed at Mary Sue wunderkind. < 1311382185 983013 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has become Sheldon's nemesis. But we sympathize with Sheldon. < 1311382214 531329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I think the actor who played Wesley Crusher is on record as saying that he hated Wesley Crusher too < 1311382218 517710 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never watched big bang theory but isn't sheldon meant to be a total jerk too < 1311382224 220346 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, Wil Wheaton is on record saying that. < 1311382226 332452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :characters are not likeable just because they're intelligent < 1311382228 70 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes. < 1311382237 876494 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU MEAN I'M DRUNK? < 1311382239 775676 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: He's autistic taken up to 11. < 1311382247 36482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow what, bad packet id < 1311382249 286937 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I FEEL STRANGE, BUT ALSO GOOD! < 1311382251 418761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft why do you hate me < 1311382266 10636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what i broke < 1311382268 448047 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: No. You mean *I'm* drunk? I don't think I am drunk either. < 1311382271 142254 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't have your characters announce how they're feeling. THAT MAKES ME FEEL ANGRY! < 1311382311 665962 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@katia:~/Code/mcmap$ valgrind hello let's be friends < 1311382311 864249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> < 1311382314 197795 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: help what do i tell valgrind < 1311382318 595439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wants to know something < 1311382321 195175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is > prompt... < 1311382331 163036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: valgrind doesn't take input < 1311382334 666641 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just outputs to stderr < 1311382335 447528 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid elliott doesn't identify with intelligent unlikable characters on tv < 1311382338 341827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously hello is asking for inputs < 1311382339 528716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why is it asking me :((((((((((((( < 1311382339 807374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*input < 1311382349 768824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, should i say hello to hello??? < 1311382357 747129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's the shell < 1311382360 488204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an unmatched ' < 1311382361 667128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ==3150== Thread 3: < 1311382361 865057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :==3150== Conditional jump or move depends on uninitialised value(s) < 1311382361 865226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :==3150== at 0x57BBE40: inflateReset2 (in /lib/libz.so.1.2.3.4) < 1311382361 865325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :==3150== by 0x57BBF2F: inflateInit2_ (in /lib/libz.so.1.2.3.4) < 1311382361 865423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :==3150== by 0x40A47B: world_thread (in /home/elliott/Code/mcmap/build/mcmap) < 1311382362 222946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I don't even want to know < 1311382368 82825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know :P < 1311382390 680847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, I don't have hello installed < 1311382436 762718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck? it looks like the only memory badness is in the lines i didn't touch < 1311382440 907715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that don't access any values i touched < 1311382481 626785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(minecraft may be off-topic here, but mcmap isn't!) < 1311382722 282035 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS STRAW HAS NO BENDY-END < 1311382725 989925 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember when the Motorola Razr was a nice phone? < 1311382747 117869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1311382753 908758 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bendy is the best part of straws :( < 1311382764 660518 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, the NY Times is running a story about /Dwarf Fortress/? < 1311382770 586462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: :( < 1311382771 451492 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this for real < 1311382775 431709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of-dwarf-fortress.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all < 1311382776 506673 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: well, this straw DOES NOT HAVE IT < 1311382777 750020 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Link? < 1311382779 408082 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1311382791 244853 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madness < 1311382796 872824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i die and end up in heaven < 1311382805 72651 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: surely not < 1311382821 219035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, you're still here < 1311382825 381519 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lack of bendiness is located to the straw < 1311382853 127271 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: monqy: stop it. we don't want straw arguments here. < 1311382857 735677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311382861 795303 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311382865 370384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're such a straw man, oerjan < 1311382877 465366 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if my straw had bendies I could build a strawman < 1311382884 793671 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF ONLY < 1311382915 735499 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1311382921 310380 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where do.... Dwarf eat-- < 1311382922 966888 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :In NyTimes!? < 1311382950 906810 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: your questions are irrelevant in this crisis < 1311382961 915130 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now read the "level20" D&D recording file. < 1311382966 489223 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1311382968 433328 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the straw that broke olsner < 1311382972 221755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The only furniture in the small dining room is Scamps’s litter box." < 1311382975 320249 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: the straw, the bendy, it lacks it < 1311382981 254043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good reporting < 1311382988 311952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: hi, can you fix mcmap, < 1311382988 950611 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be some things I have missed and I will ask my brother and the DM. But other errors such as grammatical or whatever, you can tell me now. < 1311382995 266149 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, NO! < 1311382997 183285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If much of Tarn’s apartment suggests a tenant who never fully moved in, his bedroom suggests a tenant who never sets a sock outdoors." < 1311383006 416384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tarn wakes up around 3 p.m. every day, codes through the night and goes to bed around 6 a.m." < 1311383011 570519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg i am the tarn, its me < 1311383023 396358 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tarn Hird < 1311383037 124387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think tarn's a republican though so :( < 1311383044 629478 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hird Derp < 1311383050 454347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i would never make a game as boring as dwarf fortress < 1311383071 504003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tarn consumed “maybe one glass” of water in the last three months, hydrating with soft drinks instead. “Water’s not doing it for me these days,” he said. “I know it’s bad, but the sugar goes right into programming the game. If I don’t drink soda now, I get a headache and can’t do any work.”" < 1311383076 112526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they made this article just to laugh at him < 1311383077 501872 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then don't make Dwarf Fortress, please. < 1311383122 326128 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nonsense! < 1311383129 231824 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the standard all programmers must aspire to. < 1311383145 399956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott TOPIC #esoteric :Tarn was pleased. “The hippos like the sewers!” he said. He took a celebratory swig of Dr. Pepper and rocked back and forth. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1311383165 31581 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is some property of soda which makes it less painful on sensitive gums. < 1311383195 638256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably all that acid < 1311383198 670939 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the fizziness, or the acidity? :P < 1311383202 64512 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know its ironic < 1311383203 225757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hifive < 1311383208 178584 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wooo < 1311383226 473646 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but water tends to irritate my gums < 1311383230 736786 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you know, this Tarn character sounds like someone from that story about the search for the Point < 1311383234 409319 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i have some serious gum problems < 1311383242 930061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: search for the what now? < 1311383249 343082 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: exactly < 1311383254 391234 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be the salt < 1311383256 759195 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1311383267 220471 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The issue wasn’t aptitude so much as passion. He wanted to do math but also to make video games, a juggling act he managed as an undergraduate. This had become impossible. “They wanted 60 hours a week from you, giving you problems that would take 20 hours to solve,” he said. He grew depressed and, in his only encounter with drugs, snorted meth." < 1311383273 764902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the silliest article < 1311383277 513648 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, was it a search? I just recall something with "the Point" < 1311383285 264001 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know... all the fizz and acids makes it possible for them to add salt to the soda < 1311383287 352351 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Agreed < 1311383298 884129 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meth is so passé < 1311383313 414784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the real bedroom programmers snort pure liquified scheme < 1311383314 468583 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :23mg of sodium per 250ml in my current soda < 1311383350 226751 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :question is, how much sodium in water. and would i taste 23mg of sodium in 250ml of water < 1311383377 207702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: never leave us ok < 1311383405 393898 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played Dwarf Fortress for 20 minutes before becoming a mix of bored and disillusioned < 1311383411 316627 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm too tall for it < 1311383426 335191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dwarf fortress is great, it's just not a game < 1311383441 26410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like a scientific measuring and probing tool for a universe that doesn't exist < 1311383441 256435 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :people don't necessarily want games. < 1311383455 849862 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is super mario bros a game? < 1311383470 388289 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it is a video game. < 1311383472 751879 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: at least one yes < 1311383476 699667 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spend most of my time modelling and probing things that don't exist. I don't need that in a game < 1311383490 82412 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is making an avatar jump onto a floating brick a game? < 1311383491 686068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :super mario brothers is a game, yes :P < 1311383493 629405 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could get into dwarf fortress < 1311383501 178883 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like the kind of game i would like < 1311383503 208090 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311383503 406104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: get into elliottcraft instead < 1311383505 977968 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: No, that is just an idea. < 1311383507 100957 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kind of more than a game i would like < 1311383509 514841 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliottcraft???? < 1311383523 844762 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. in super mario bros, you do that just within the context of a game < 1311383524 43145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yes i play minecraft, but it is a bad game, so i am making a totally different game and calling it a better minecraft < 1311383526 651681 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like.. uhh < 1311383527 989671 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's minecraft, except that you're elliott < 1311383529 10027 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha hahaha hahaa < 1311383533 299722 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a niche community < 1311383538 161476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: dwarf fortress-level detail and depth, but minecraft-style graphics and infinite world < 1311383547 238859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you control a player rather than dwarves (although there are AIs in the world) < 1311383547 719374 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds neato < 1311383549 872483 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :super mario bros is about jumping on blocks with a time limit < 1311383554 705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what the goal is yet :< < 1311383564 559184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, infinite in all directions unlike minecraft!! < 1311383568 336340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(minecraft has a height limit) < 1311383570 102332 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: And running to the right < 1311383575 301033 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1311383575 593765 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Well, it is about reaching the end of each level, I think < 1311383584 154155 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the goal, at least. < 1311383584 352129 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i study these things. < 1311383589 65866 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Lazily generated, one hopes < 1311383594 623649 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :by study i mean i look at websites < 1311383595 9654 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Und jetzt: schalafen werden würden werden sein... Ja? < 1311383605 830223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: yes :P < 1311383620 963727 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally shigeru said.. each level should take about 60 seconds < 1311383624 85209 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: also competently coded multiplayer??? unlike minecraft's which is so bad you have no idea < 1311383629 991310 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I mean if you have a real UTM you could do it strictly :D < 1311383639 114466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: utms can't do infinite computation in finite time, sorry no < 1311383643 313136 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people said.. oh no. thats a lot of screens that have to be created per level if it is scrolling for a whole minute < 1311383643 952393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1311383653 454774 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one time i played minecraft < 1311383655 273801 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i uh < 1311383657 652627 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then shigeru said.. but there will be things on the way to slow them down < 1311383658 526577 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a long time ago < 1311383664 863477 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJsPoI2w6-A < 1311383668 695939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: back when it was a java applet? < 1311383671 115585 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you had infinite of all blocks < 1311383674 833588 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311383685 615802 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not a java applet anymore? < 1311383692 650606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: well it's java, but nobody plays it in the applet form any more < 1311383699 699335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it costs money, but not much < 1311383705 355397 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :money :( < 1311383707 296038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: the beta is actually a fun game. the coding is so bad you have no idea, but it is actually fun. < 1311383712 419633 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even *I* bought it, and I steal everything < 1311383723 687510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: 21 dollars, it seems < 1311383729 338928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was half that when i bought it during alpha :P < 1311383731 392658 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had an MRI scan the other week, btw: there should be nothing to worry about - because if there were I hope they would've told me by now < 1311383741 387908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and will double again when it hits final) < 1311383748 810135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: worry? I was just getting excited :( < 1311383750 273845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not true) < 1311383756 929210 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. super mario game is all about reaching the end of the level within a time limit < 1311383761 637053 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :42 dollars minecraft? < 1311383764 858681 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: MRI scans are more noisy than exciting < 1311383765 56542 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouche < 1311383771 773587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: well, it's a lot bigger game now :P < 1311383775 734624 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm < 1311383783 755587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: aren't new games like sixty dollars anyway < 1311383786 349207 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I better not have to buy it again < 1311383789 588327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: no < 1311383795 313434 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good < 1311383797 62430 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i dont buy games i have no idea < 1311383821 727455 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: otoh, why would you ever worry about my "insignificant" existence < 1311383833 963951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: minecraft is good to buy because it gives you two good things to do: < 1311383836 374024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: - complain about minecraft < 1311383836 979720 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: We are all insignificant < 1311383838 715697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: - play it and enjoy it < 1311383853 455022 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: the nihilist doubly so < 1311383861 308226 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. < 1311383862 493689 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch < 1311383865 220950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: also you get to play with us :{ < 1311383868 802511 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311383871 591532 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nash failed to create a "video game theory" < 1311383874 188908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a happy :{ < 1311383878 794252 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311383881 175536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Nash failed to create a "video game theory" < 1311383881 591850 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a sad :{ < 1311383882 309973 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :539) Nash failed to create a "video game theory" < 1311383882 857483 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or he didn't try :P < 1311383884 511265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: :{ < 1311383893 12323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 539 < 1311383894 261947 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1311383897 289646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. Nash failed to create a "video game theory" < 1311383898 339921 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :539) Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. Nash failed to create a "video game theory" < 1311383950 267160 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does M. Bison roll? < 1311384021 762965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :“I don’t mind the idea of never having kids,” he said. “I want to stay focused on the game, and if I had kids, I’d wind up paying attention to them instead.” < 1311384038 356755 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: I don't think Bison has a roll attack < 1311384053 307883 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: This article has to be a troll < 1311384063 537499 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311384072 237567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why its awesome (its obviously trying to paint him as a "weird" person but who cares) < 1311384092 389511 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vega and Blanka, OTOH... < 1311384109 675140 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIKE A BAWWWSS! < 1311384113 726883 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i < 1311384125 807124 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a bawwwss < 1311384127 951402 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cut and pasted someone elses spelling < 1311384142 410255 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it mine < 1311384167 140710 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i uh < 1311384169 26725 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bawwss < 1311384171 612255 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i < 1311384173 22258 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it < 1311384177 790508 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was gonna say Bowser from mario... but couldn't think of a name which would click instantly < 1311384188 747541 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since some call him King Koopa < 1311384206 470020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow he makes a lot from donations < 1311384209 618454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not that much < 1311384211 630846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for donations... < 1311384212 310105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot < 1311384247 804009 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tarn, 33, lives" < 1311384248 710615 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a bowser from mario < 1311384251 409566 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In bold, for no reason < 1311384257 384387 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311384261 197591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, in the only moment I heard him speak with anything like bitterness, Tarn called Minecraft a “depressing distillation of our own stuff.” < 1311384273 264916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: it's a section break < 1311384286 455867 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's not a very convincing one < 1311384329 280201 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311384329 684857 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the only reason I want Minecraft is the polish. Gameplay polish and also the abundance of NPCs < 1311384358 500973 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coincidentally, those are the two major lacking features of Minecraft! < 1311384362 39878 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :And -- since my brain can think up such things... I dare say < 1311384363 978470 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'As Tarn got into the zone, his muttered profanities and grumbles about “x distances”' < 1311384372 281592 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As if that's some absurd nerdspeak < 1311384375 220000 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Terraria is Lemmings with NPCs. < 1311384385 859933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont control a character in Terraria < 1311384395 4762 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.. I haven't played it. < 1311384409 614074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't really control a character in Lemmings either < 1311384413 914460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1311384416 245421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you control a character in Terraria < 1311384418 47827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1311384421 258256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont control a character in Lemmings < 1311384430 820701 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're just a demigod in Lemmings. < 1311384434 217939 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just uh.. hit on a cool idea didn't i? < 1311384437 28157 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :NPCs in lemmings < 1311384447 872150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :terraria is basically minecraft + rpg < 1311384448 69696 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemmings vs zombies < 1311384448 627716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that really a cool idea? < 1311384460 17502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: you're more of a tactical advisor who tells them when to turn into walls and when to explode < 1311384464 306970 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if it has been done < 1311384470 726894 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm going with demigod. < 1311384499 553113 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :on bing: Thats an urban legend. However, in the very excellent video game Lemmings, they do. Now thats a great idea for a video game: Lemmings vs Zombies. < 1311384512 635023 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dying < 1311384512 832948 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Demi" because you're not *that* powerful, "god" because thou art greatly seeing and greatly knowing. < 1311384540 690562 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can I be one of the play testers for Zombies vs. Lemmings? And will there be a sequel game with zombie lemmings?" < 1311384543 997663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lemmings with npcs actually sounds interesting < 1311384545 349958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although very hard < 1311384554 167459 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/04/this-isnt-going-away/ < 1311384564 121499 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I always thought a demigod was just someone in charge of the espresso machine < 1311384565 501127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what the NPCs do, and interact with the game < 1311384570 510901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"obamaconspiracy.org" < 1311384577 941944 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know.. im serious though < 1311384582 529517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's against obama conspiracies < 1311384587 264652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not at all surprised that the website exists < 1311384609 605693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was worried it would be a collection of conspiracies about Obama in /favour/ of them < 1311384627 70150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION becomes the Tarn, tries to figure out what's up with this code < 1311384643 448539 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1311384713 108768 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-175-60.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1311384713 306933 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-175-60.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Client Quit < 1311384716 819048 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There are those who tell us that any choice from among theoretically-equivalent alternatives is merely a question of taste. These are the people who bring up the Strong Church Turing Thesis in discussions of programming languages meant for use by humans. They are malicious idiots. The only punishment which could stand a chance at reforming these miscreants into decent people would be a year or two at hard labor. And not just any kind of < 1311384717 16959 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard labor: specifically, carrying out long division using Roman numerals. A merciful tyrant would give these wretches the option of a firing squad. Those among these criminals against mathematics who prove unrepentant in their final hours would be asked to prove the Turing-equivalence of a spoon to a shovel as they dig their graves." < 1311384750 416073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :source < 1311384751 72267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1311384777 144575 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.loper-os.org/?p=448 < 1311384798 556022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why do birthers believe what they do? It turns out that one factor in whether someone mistakenly considers random patterns to be something significant has to do with dopamine levels in their brains — the more dopamine, the more belief. Dopamine is part of the brain’s reward system. I was just reading about this today in Michael Shermer’s book, The Believing Brain." < 1311384803 149277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this blog sure is fishing for posts < 1311384816 591770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh, another loper post < 1311384857 683965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: re turing-equivalence: right point, annoying delivery, as always with loper-os < 1311384864 936048 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the times it's wrong point, annoying delivery < 1311384880 474626 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think it's hilarious delivery *shrug* < 1311384894 406398 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, link to wrong point? < 1311384899 341356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur joking right < 1311384907 919838 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think rage is funny < 1311384909 324773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you say this huge blog is wrong sometimes?? PROVE IT WITH A LINK" < 1311384919 243074 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1311384923 929544 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, yeah, now try reading every loper post and not getting sick of him and wanting him to shut the fuck up < 1311384928 902829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: but here's a wrong point: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=428 < 1311384944 280859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a stupid point: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 < 1311384959 338503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a stupid point: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374 < 1311384960 996758 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, the Turing thesis really *does* imply that the choice of language is "merely" one of taste. < 1311384977 666900 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, then, the same is true whenever you have a selection of tools theoretically capable of a given task. < 1311384989 798628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not the turing thesis ffs < 1311384994 235009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :church-turing thesis is a different thing < 1311385001 126370 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if your choice is between a spoon and a bulldozer. < 1311385022 843123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: lol -- see that project cosa stanislav linked to? < 1311385027 667948 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the guy behind that thing's blog: < 1311385036 432420 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think a bulldozer will help me eat this soupe < 1311385037 402054 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Surprising Source of My Knowledge about the Brain < 1311385037 599756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstract < 1311385037 599927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my recent article on the flaws in Numenta's memory model, I made several claims about how the brain processes sensory signals. I now reveal the source of my knowledge as promised. Those of you who have followed my work over the years will not be surprised by what I am about to say. As always, it is up to you to take it or leave it. < 1311385037 600031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1311385038 375349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Source < 1311385040 376551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The source of my knowledge is a couple of occult symbolic texts found in the Bible. < 1311385041 882909 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw the link, didn't click it < 1311385042 300502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- http://rebelscience.blogspot.com/2011/06/surprising-source-of-my-knowledge-about.html < 1311385044 323412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1311385047 608211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thinker < 1311385056 192381 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is, of course, that we have people convinced that a teaspoon is a good tool for digging a tunnel. < 1311385077 786003 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone think bulldozeres are good for soupes < 1311385084 694672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes me < 1311385088 486961 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have very big soups < 1311385093 117477 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Well, the XML crowd seems to think that. < 1311385100 515549 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmh < 1311385104 399266 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except instead of a bulldozer it's more a Death Star. < 1311385131 872995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Neither Newton's gravity equation nor the equations of General Relativity explain why things fall. But what better way is there to hide one's cluelessness while presenting a façade of erudition than to use obscure equations to erect an impregnable mountain of obfuscation? Voodoo science is guru science." < 1311385133 23107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this guy < 1311385144 170428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Examples of voodoo science masquerading as legitimate science are all around us: time travel, wormholes, black holes, dimensions curled up into little balls so tiny as to be undetectable, parallel universes, continuum physics, quantum computing, symbolic intelligence, machine consciousness, etc... It is all worthless crackpottery." < 1311385156 870783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Spacetime is a fictitious math construct, famous physicists are clueless about time, time dilation is a misnomer and time travel is crackpottery) < 1311385157 148891 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Aristotle was right about the causality of motion and, as a result, we are immersed in an immense lattice of energetic particles) < 1311385166 522018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Gravity is an energy conservation phenomenon. It is both instantaneous and nonlocal) < 1311385166 719746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Intelligence is mostly about the temporal correlations between discrete sensory signals) < 1311385170 811905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna hug this guy < 1311385183 938930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Artificial Intelligence From the Bible! < 1311385184 137192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :June 21, 2011 < 1311385184 137365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to recent dramatic progress in my research, this article has been deleted. My old interpretation of the scriptural metaphors was partially in error. I am working on a new series of articles on the subject. In the meantime, I encourage my readers to read Rebel Science News for the latest. < 1311385198 397019 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dead < 1311385201 212192 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotting < 1311385201 629406 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so we can < 1311385207 456231 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't see when he makes mistakes < 1311385214 394701 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Erm, as in, in his predictons) < 1311385217 435343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :predictions < 1311385235 410764 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm sure he'll call any falsifications "voodoo science" < 1311385252 862495 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Partially in error < 1311385255 450255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im torn between wanting to read the cosa paper and not wanting to because this guy man < 1311385318 58488 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cosa? < 1311385341 53142 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: this guy's dataflow software/os/language proposal which seems to be much saner than his other stuff < 1311385345 489748 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stanislav linked to < 1311385375 609931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHHH i know whats wrong < 1311385560 586959 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, you should never use ketchup with filet mignon < 1311385626 839035 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you advise < 1311385628 935228 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for use with < 1311385631 686400 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :filet mignon < 1311385689 206783 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like béarnaise sauce < 1311385715 325628 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leave it alone < 1311385730 234919 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh or pepper sauce < 1311385730 432804 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just eat it, and enjoy < 1311385804 460800 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've had bearnaise sauce one time it was good pepper sauce is good too i forget if i've ever had filet mignon < 1311385808 235424 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait that doesn't mean the same thing as "peppersaus" < 1311385830 369289 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no thats a completely different thing obviously < 1311385831 910334 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually kind of like this: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=428 < 1311385876 669416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a stupid point < 1311385884 21632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the context of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=288 < 1311385893 490663 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1311385919 143703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also his response to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=288&cpage=1#comment-1283 < 1311385924 537538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amusing but wrong and stupid < 1311385974 990589 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, crazy people < 1311386005 52701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :loper is full of good ideas written by an annoying person with a too-big ego < 1311386017 962509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAVE I MENTIONED THAT TUNES IS GREAT < 1311386019 621391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT @ IS BETTER < 1311386040 957123 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the english word implies chili pepper, the norwegian word implies black pepper (or similar) < 1311386067 235461 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the thing common between them is that neither are currently usable < 1311386077 724191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "pepper sauce" refers to black pepper in British English too < 1311386079 703303 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1311386082 64314 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1311386086 718682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh -- < 1311386088 171895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TUNES started in 1992-95 as an operating system project, but was never clearly defined, and it succumbed to design-by-committee syndrome and gradually failed." < 1311386090 82754 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pepper sauce" just sounds bizarre in American English. < 1311386092 36891 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :TUNES is now officially over < 1311386101 321134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as of April, it seems < 1311386103 986841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why is clog still here? < 1311386106 365997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP TUNES < 1311386108 661888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: say it < 1311386112 717314 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i uh < 1311386120 908590 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading now < 1311386121 742992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the website isn't down, it's just officially abandoned; and besides, clog is a bespin service, not a tunes one < 1311386126 60713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, fair enough < 1311386127 133194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just use the wrong url because everyone does and it's prettier < 1311386130 622499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: wait you don't know of tunes? < 1311386139 703262 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sauce from chili peppers would be "hot sauce", and you can make a black pepper sauce? < 1311386141 318622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only do because of clog < 1311386148 801857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: you can make a source from black pepper < 1311386154 92489 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unununium is also dead < 1311386155 590943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other ingredients too < 1311386159 274147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not /just/ black pepper, obviously < 1311386164 889796 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, obviously. < 1311386165 526257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: every programmer should know about TUNES, I think < 1311386184 979601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in your opinion, lots of people should know about all sorts of things I don't know about < 1311386187 92695 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, seriously, that seems like a strange sauce basis. < 1311386189 174123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd give an example except I can't < 1311386189 451247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they don't keep assuming Unix and Windows are the only ways to do computers, or anywhere near the best way < 1311386196 927347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even an acceptable way < 1311386204 815446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't assume UNIX/Windows are the only way to do things at all, though < 1311386211 220002 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at the end of the game Like a bauss < 1311386220 744391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let's put it this way: @ doesn't sound like much new to anyone who knows about TUNES < 1311386224 707027 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a bauss is it like a bawwwss ;___________________; < 1311386225 522473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX is like the BF of operating systems; people who try to design operating systems normally end up designing crappy versions of it, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do an OS < 1311386228 496021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hazard a guess that @ sounded new to you < 1311386246 586862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and @ is unlike OSes I know about, but the concepts aren't new to me < 1311386247 142088 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats windows < 1311386253 598884 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats @ < 1311386262 775361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: @ is the operating system you'll use in a few decades... maybe. < 1311386264 418694 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: hm i went by wikipedia, where "pepper sauce" redirects to "hot sauce", which has both terms and chili sauce bolded < 1311386275 870809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1311386276 859007 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "Pepper sauce" still sounds bizarre. < 1311386282 258284 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: googleing for @ doesnt work he;lp[ < 1311386282 630970 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c < 1311386286 471493 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I like to think @ will be interesting enough to surprise you when it actually exists < 1311386286 669649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"chili sauce" would be the usual name in the UK < 1311386292 327177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: @ is my ultimate NIH project < 1311386295 535367 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Modern Windows is, IMO, in the same OS family as UNIX. < 1311386302 644872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, "chilli" I think in British English < 1311386313 47681 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: zepto < 1311386313 326211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I agree too, although it's a very bad example of it < 1311386313 524079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I decided that software was fundamentally broken < 1311386314 16006 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's 2008 now. If a few dedidated hackers can find the time and money to put some sustained effort into it, we could have a working prototype by 2010, with widespread use by 2015 or 2020. < 1311386314 294251 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1311386318 433750 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No argument. < 1311386339 578310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: so i tossed everything out, and started designing a new software environment ("operating system is inaccurate"; @ has no distinction between the OS and everything running "on top" of it) < 1311386347 418127 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes something in the same OS family as UNIX? < 1311386349 146269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :including language, from scratch < 1311386354 109717 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Files in a heirarchy? < 1311386363 643462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that would make DOS a UNIX < 1311386373 12513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not DOS 1 < 1311386379 288957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't have directories < 1311386386 580860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it spent the rest of its life gradually stealing UNIX concepts < 1311386395 245052 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you may peruse http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html but only in the knowledge that it's old and whiny, and only summarises one aspect of @ (and fairly vaguely at that) < 1311386407 221034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that end up on catseye? < 1311386415 647624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not surprised you wrote that, but I am surprised at where it's hosted < 1311386417 594578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I had no hosting at the time and asked cpressey on IRC, and he said sure < 1311386425 342626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was last year < 1311386431 400156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fifteen months ago < 1311386450 463155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah that's formatted badly, far too narrow < 1311386466 990908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, it's only about 3 ems too narrow < 1311386471 361758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, in fact < 1311386473 336713 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160062.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311386487 562138 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The primary feature is having the prime data structure being a hierarchy of blobs of bytes, with a little bit of metadata. Combine with a C ABI and system calls as the basic ABI, and multitasking, and you have a vaguely UNIX-like OS. < 1311386491 440136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ten words per line/sixty-six characters per line is the widely-agreed-upon ideal that presumably has some research backing it up, and that's 33 ems) < 1311386492 139557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :congratulations, you're the first person who actually made me open up Firebug and edit the CSS < 1311386495 640661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it three times the width < 1311386509 451091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then, I'd prefer it to go margin to margin < 1311386529 467823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1311386531 563520 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now wouldn't it be nice if browsers didn't make lousy document viewers, and you could have done that without resorting to such things? < 1311386533 919905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, like @. < 1311386537 7575 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yes, the memory/disk dichotomy is big. < 1311386542 963903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also think your eyes are broken, but oh well) < 1311386612 561860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can think of some counterpoints to things in that files article < 1311386637 879428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: go on, although I'll probably disagree with them < 1311386638 157488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, it's often useful to be able to change the representation of something on disk, and if you abstract away from that, there's no way to do so < 1311386646 267598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes there is < 1311386650 880590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it/ < 1311386651 315526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even address that in the article < 1311386674 548193 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you fuckers stop talking so fast? I'm still reading the scrollback for context :D < 1311386687 667941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no you don't, unless I missed where you addressed it < 1311386700 718368 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311386704 642406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: tl;dr current @ design is that any "entity" (/object/whatever) can override its own saving and storing, but most of the time you'll want to just use a pre-written transformer like a compressor, since you must ensure to always save and restore _all_ of the state < 1311386708 709039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "You don’t have to give up the compactness of formats like PNG, either: you can store that as a byte array in memory, and have it as the pluggable “backing storage” of some abstract image type. That way, all images are accessed in the same way (although possibly with different operations depending on the characteristics of the backing storage) regardless of the underlying compressed stora < 1311386708 906911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ge. < 1311386708 907079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1311386724 256599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a little vague and not the exact current design that I stated, but it still addresses it < 1311386730 949244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You could have overridable serialisation, so that e.g. a PNG-backed image is serialised as the compressed PNG, without any auxiliary data that can be generated when it is used." < 1311386735 49853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I suppose my question is as to how you're meant to change the backing storage < 1311386754 79135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: depends how you tell the operating system anything about an object < 1311386764 918343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every object could be responsible for its own serialisation/deserialisation, for instance < 1311386773 853319 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, elliott, last I was aware 100 characters/line was the new sort-of standardy ideal < 1311386777 105494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how does @ do naming objects? e.g. atm I can access /home/ais523/esoteric/intercal/git/intercal to get the latest C-INTERCAL source < 1311386777 383230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could pull in GzipSerialiser < 1311386784 2568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: nah, the sources for that seem rubbish < 1311386786 830765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously that doesn't have to be done with a hierarchical filename < 1311386791 322277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm wondering what specifically replaces it < 1311386803 45181 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's metadata. < 1311386807 67842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hey < 1311386813 47285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get to answer questions about @ :p < 1311386817 102181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how do you name the x coordinate of the first coordinate in a list of coordinates (say array) in C? < 1311386830 879969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in C, it depends on their internal representation < 1311386838 972882 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: filesystem names are internal representations < 1311386842 377211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311386844 503618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, C was a bad choice < 1311386849 313136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is, array[0].x is a name too < 1311386859 316352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the moment, the filesystem representation, while internal, is the one that humans use to specify files < 1311386863 208287 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-229-218.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311386867 173945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but in @ the primary means of naming documents isn't by internal name < 1311386871 402147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking what @'s equivalent is, not because I don't think it exists, but because I'm curious as to what it is < 1311386882 318612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not so much an accusation as a question < 1311386887 431756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure exactly how you /do/, because I don't know what @'s UI looks like yet, other than it being very, very different from anything else < 1311386893 170614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311386899 160224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hipster UI? < 1311386913 754409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :("I don't care what it is as long as it's different"?) < 1311386914 866900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but e.g. you might say "find|document|@ best os" and it would find you a document titled "Why @ is the Best OS" < 1311386920 877178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(prioritising title over text, etc.) < 1311386932 546434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I don't want to do any sort of search? < 1311386938 243532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "find|documents|older than april" < 1311386948 873946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't think of it as searching < 1311386951 888377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if I'm using @ to work on some more traditional software < 1311386954 494085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just think of it as naming an object < 1311386964 758296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I want exactly the same result every time, no matter what's happened in terms of creation of other objects meanwhile < 1311386968 837046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If you want a precise name, you could take its object ID -- basically, like a pointer, but it's literally global < 1311386971 878148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's just a long hash) < 1311386974 452785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or deletion or changes of any objects other than the one I want < 1311386977 716231 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then see above < 1311386979 245693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't remember hashes < 1311386982 855498 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use the ID numbers for the documents and whatever you want to find? < 1311386988 291188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: zooko's triangle < 1311386994 878380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right# < 1311387002 87155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311387011 353067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're ignoring the side of the triangle I most care about < 1311387015 298657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Unix cheats by not having the decentralised or secure properties < 1311387015 992013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd much prefer you discarded one of the other two < 1311387016 878537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which side is that? < 1311387022 504072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Human-meaningful? < 1311387031 183943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I solve that by having alternate ways to name objects, like I said < 1311387037 352221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, decentralised is the one I care least about < 1311387043 600347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine if I can only access stuff on my own computer < 1311387049 103600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's integral to @'s design < 1311387051 98953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :better, in fact, as I'm typically not connected to a network < 1311387053 338038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's integral to @'s design < 1311387066 383231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in that case I probably won't use @, it's fundamentally incompatible with the way I work < 1311387069 28800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ makes no innate distinction between RAM and disk; it also makes no innate distinction between local and global < 1311387070 419210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It isn't < 1311387076 436967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could define a filesystem view of all your documents < 1311387081 385744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mangle the name and some other data to form its name < 1311387097 481704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hierarchical filesystems are far from perfect, but at least they're usable < 1311387099 598725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do anything you can do in Unix with @; it just wouldn't be /idiomatic/ < 1311387104 755812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fair enough < 1311387107 94538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I just told you how to get a filesystem; you could make it hierarchical too < 1311387117 19264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could manage it manually by constructing a filesystem object yourself; basically just an associative map < 1311387127 143845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's @'s equivalent to UNIX "find" (i.e. get everything below a certain point in the hierarchy)? < 1311387127 421852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I find dismissing these things before actually using them to be unwise < 1311387133 473505 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so filesystems are not the fundamental things, but you can still make it up yourself to do like a filesystem? < 1311387147 142168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concepts don't translate at all well, which is why I asked < 1311387149 21311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There is no hierarchy. If you mean on a constructed filesystem, that's up to the API of the associative map < 1311387174 858181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway, the distinction between local and global doesn't make local use more difficult < 1311387178 12156 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I certainly wouldn't know until I can see some parts of it that it can be done. < 1311387181 168777 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]lack of distinction < 1311387183 732512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, I'm working on a program, and I want to find all instances of a certain identifier in all the source that makes up that program < 1311387189 250719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Note that distinctoins are made at the user-level < 1311387190 748763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying not to assume that the source is text-file-like here) < 1311387208 503339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, "program" is also an artificial distinction :) < 1311387210 815450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably I have to group all those files some way so I can equivalent-of-grep over just those < 1311387223 729546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, let's try "package", which is also an artifical distinction but one that's made deliberately for a reason < 1311387223 927711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But say you have a collection of that count as the structure of your program < 1311387237 403808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, fair enough < 1311387237 819835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "portion of all software that I'm responsible for maintaining" < 1311387241 252284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not arbitrary < 1311387241 450020 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How would you do that on an arbitrary data structure? < 1311387251 957572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: please, don't try and argue @ for me, it makes @ look bad :) < 1311387258 636839 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311387259 777751 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, then. < 1311387260 56062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: for a completely arbitrary data structure, with no knowledge about its contents, I couldn't < 1311387278 888667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not the case even in @ < 1311387287 516358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, I don't know how you'll actually phrase queries... because I don't know what @'s UI is yet (this also implies I don't know what its language is yet, because they're two sides of the same coin) < 1311387289 68807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But < 1311387319 62203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Things like functions will have a way to get at their underlying AST < 1311387329 160055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably < 1311387333 64240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe only in some context like a package < 1311387333 944138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1311387337 148395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :To avoid breaking all sorts of parametricity < 1311387340 383758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just realised that Feather is the only sensible language to write this in < 1311387344 222851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha, it isn't < 1311387347 99569 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But seriously -- < 1311387353 161077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just said "Things like functions will have a way to get at their underlying AST" < 1311387357 754730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then contradicted it < 1311387364 231156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1311387366 622673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That breaks all sorts of properties, it's gross < 1311387374 598227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you might be able to get a function's source from its module, say < 1311387375 15512 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311387378 841830 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1311387387 327845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd assume functions would be decompiled to get their source < 1311387393 816458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But anyway, tl;dr AST objects (if there is a concept like an AST??) will have a way to search for an identifier < 1311387394 511003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things like comments would be part of the compiled version < 1311387398 713001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it would roundtrip < 1311387398 910772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's basically just a map over the project < 1311387413 218406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this is hopelessly vague, but your questions are all user-level, which is the least certain part of @ so far < 1311387429 480155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's because the system-level stuff, at least at the highest level, makes a lot of sense < 1311387429 897148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I do ask you don't dismiss it before it exists based on _these_ answers :) < 1311387485 989877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I can think of a moderate solution to the zooko's triangle problem; allow individual users (with whatever way you identify who they are, which you have to do for security reasons) to have their own private names for arbitrary objects < 1311387505 52808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you have both a secure/decentralised name and a secure/humanreadable name, with the human who reads it doing the centralisation < 1311387506 518400 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think there are systems that do that < 1311387515 127756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311387518 727186 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311387522 431282 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : incidentally, I can think of a moderate solution to the zooko's triangle problem; allow individual users (with whatever way you identify who they are, which you have to do for security reasons) to have their own private names for arbitrary objects < 1311387526 208523 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Missed everything after this < 1311387530 405909 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And yes, that's a Petname system < 1311387537 44432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[03:18] that way you have both a secure/decentralised name and a secure/humanreadable name, with the human who reads it doing the centralisation < 1311387538 419923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[03:18] ais523, I think there are systems that do that < 1311387540 23294 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And that will be possible, yes < 1311387540 980872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd be fine with that < 1311387548 885894 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It'll be the same mechanism as what replaces a browser's bookmark system, too < 1311387561 436916 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And of course you won't be restricted to naming things with a-constrained-path.txt, or even just a string < 1311387565 970314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1311387566 168253 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No reason a name can't be an object < 1311387569 387097 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I have to think up names for all my bookmarks? < 1311387575 363235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: except that objects can't be compared, in general? < 1311387581 161181 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Your bookmarks already *have* names. < 1311387581 438869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a name has to be something comparable < 1311387581 648276 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what happens when you press the bookmark icon on your browser? < 1311387585 834345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, it can be general < 1311387587 506153 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, yes, definitely < 1311387598 185886 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: although you could have a name that isn't comparable, and it'd just appear in a list of all your names < 1311387600 636759 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be fairly pointless, though < 1311387602 199975 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, A name is filled in, but possibly non-unique < 1311387603 320013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: your bookmarks are almost certainly given the title of the website they refer to, at the time it was bookmarked, as names < 1311387613 687950 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Non-unique names are OK, too < 1311387613 966057 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Index of /" etc. < 1311387618 75949 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking it up will just say "oops, which do you mean" < 1311387624 549435 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1311387630 891476 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the default lookup operation might as well just do a fuzzy-ish text search < 1311387637 112633 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I tend to bookmark everything and then never look at them agian < 1311387638 610615 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :again < 1311387640 195070 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot more convenient, too, since you can type only part of it and select which one you want < 1311387690 384378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think Firefox's address bar thing has quite a few properties in similar with the way @'s names would typically work (although a lot of differences too) < 1311387702 769556 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; Firefox's address bar is a good idea, implemented badly < 1311387714 665906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you dislike about the implementation, incidentally? < 1311387727 68857 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hard to articulate; it just doesn't do what I want < 1311387734 805914 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome's is better, but it tends to not find things in my history, which is really annoying < 1311387757 670704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I'm typing in the address bar, either I'm copying an URL, or I'm searching in history < 1311387770 62235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Firefox does pretty much exactly what I want there < 1311387776 764271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway, hopefully @'s "final" (just the beginning) version will be the OS you want to use; all my efforts right now are classed as pre-pre-pre-pre-alphas of a given /stratum/ of a project leading up to @ < 1311387778 826072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely don't want it to return arbitrary websites, that's what the search box is for < 1311387783 124208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: heh < 1311387787 989593 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's plenty of time for you to test and comment on it :P < 1311387801 973938 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not even joking, I've even tried to name distinct phases < 1311387821 452617 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't call anything @ until it's 1.0 quality, and that means being about a million lightyears ahead of any existing OS < 1311387827 341966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :security sounds like a hard problem in @, in that a single security bug could allow someone to instantly bring down every computer in existence < 1311387830 144951 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and @ isn't its actual name, of course < 1311387835 350130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, it's just a placeholder < 1311387839 47155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not bad for an actual name, though < 1311387843 838586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps its actual name will be an object < 1311387849 654608 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad for Googleability, but who will use Google once @ is around? < 1311387850 920198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a text string < 1311387879 128272 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using @ will, ironically but perhaps appropriately, not be as nice as using @ would be in an ideal world; nobody else is going to use it, so you'll still be stuck with the web, and IRC, and all sorts of other mediums that reimplement everything and don't allow you to send objects < 1311387881 437040 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : security sounds like a hard problem in @, in that a single security bug could allow someone to instantly bring down every computer in existence < 1311387882 623578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: probably Google will have the best servers at resolving who has a copy of a given @ object < 1311387888 636085 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? I'm planning on using capability security. < 1311387898 792839 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems relatively immune to such things because the security isn't "a thing" or a layer < 1311387901 953602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I mean, if the security implementation is broken < 1311387904 395558 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an inherent property of who gives you what. < 1311387911 15270 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: See above; capability security doesn't get implementations. < 1311387917 598269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a capability" isn't something you can hardware into an actual processor < 1311387918 393153 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's literally just not having a standard environment beyond what's passed around. < 1311387927 838038 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A capability is just an object! < 1311387931 243205 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every object is a capability! < 1311387933 879217 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a 0 lines of code thing. < 1311387939 689028 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no flags or anything. < 1311387945 681745 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is just recognising that a pointer to X means you are allowed to use X. < 1311387955 646603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yes, so what if I try to use X without a pointer to it? < 1311387962 61325 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How? You can't name it. < 1311387964 380707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's meant to be impossible, but has to be implemented somehow < 1311387964 886546 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Slartibartfast: Can I be one of the play testers for Zombies vs. Lemmings? And will there be a sequel game with zombie lemmings?" < 1311387967 226693 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try and name X for me. < 1311387969 753570 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, it doesn't < 1311387974 217271 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Count me in too! Dr C you really should patent that ideaI think that game or app would rake in a fortune! ;)" < 1311387980 76113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well, say X happens to be on my physical hard drive < 1311387992 64075 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, there has to be a level of abstraction though < 1311387992 814180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can name it by its location on the drive < 1311387998 432117 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You can't access the bits on your hard drive; nobody passed you that object. < 1311388007 185074 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course they didn't, that's insanely high-privilege. < 1311388008 92065 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the kind of crap patents are.. its really just how quickly you can traverse the inventions tree and find an empty node < 1311388019 539901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: so what if an exploit does let me access the bits on my own hard drive? < 1311388023 965930 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How? < 1311388030 473069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, removing the hard drive and putting it into an older laptop that doesn't run @ < 1311388037 480699 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, security bugs are possible, but capability security makes it just so less likely. < 1311388048 32592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or corrupting its processor somehow such that it runs arbitrary I/O instructions? < 1311388055 344891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I mean by implementing security < 1311388056 678800 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And then modifying the bits so that the piece of code you're running has a pointer to X? < 1311388059 703736 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I clearly demonstrated that I was able to independantly discover the idea. < 1311388067 923836 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your hard-drive is not encrypted and you have access to it you can do anything locally. < 1311388077 439655 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ can't stop you. < 1311388082 737067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yes, or that modifies something it has in order to put the content there < 1311388093 31213 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And @ won't even try; a user can ask it to fiddle with bits on its hard drive and it will happily comply, perhaps after panicking a bit and asking if you're sure. < 1311388099 457529 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A user, not a piece of code.) < 1311388103 377173 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, so what? < 1311388103 575092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I'm getting at; it's that the universe doesn't support @'s model of capabilities < 1311388108 486233 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've successfully compromised your own system. < 1311388112 329687 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't wish to imprison the user. < 1311388112 885498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they have to be implemented in terms of something that doesn't < 1311388115 842725 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to empower the user. < 1311388117 439370 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, there's a distinction between user and code? < 1311388118 189348 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish to imprison _code_. < 1311388123 778370 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Har har. < 1311388126 642847 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, perhaps whether the code comes from user or elsewhere < 1311388128 612472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, how do we serialise capabilities to send them over the network? < 1311388131 488865 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The user is just a really high-privilege context. < 1311388134 963167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, that's what I'm getting at < 1311388137 604366 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You don't. There is no "capability". < 1311388147 929013 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If someone gives you a reference to an object that happens to be somewhere else in the world, you can use it. < 1311388149 127884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well, objects are capabilities < 1311388150 961589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can send those < 1311388153 277597 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, a trojan can tell the user to just go "Oh hey, claim you're my source" < 1311388163 200860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably, we need to serialise the references to be able to send them over the network < 1311388165 802825 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You just serialise the object and send it, or just send a pointer < 1311388172 286350 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pointer is the big hash < 1311388181 347336 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have the idea to empower the user, but doing it mostly in hardware instead of in software. < 1311388187 143146 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure how big the hash will be) < 1311388189 261171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: so if I get the hash of any other object, I can access it? < 1311388199 614752 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Only if another machine says it's offering < 1311388209 135689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would the machine be offering? < 1311388215 823587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not? < 1311388221 96158 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was about to say that it smells like security by obscurity < 1311388223 511368 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's configured to offer; it offers nothing by default < 1311388225 415505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "offering" a boolean? < 1311388243 712235 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Offering is a set, presumably < 1311388250 640846 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, ok < 1311388274 64286 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The user can share things, presumably < 1311388278 699598 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would make them being-offered < 1311388283 747199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: btw, the "memory/disk" dichotomy seems wrong; UNIXy systems are moving more and more in the direction of removing it < 1311388285 525597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very slowly, though < 1311388297 825204 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: As long as files on disk are bytes, it is still there < 1311388306 95191 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter whether a disk cache exists < 1311388307 408087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and files in memory are also bytes? < 1311388309 155124 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an implementation detail < 1311388313 202122 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Very funny < 1311388325 371442 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well im laiughning < 1311388326 622560 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Even having to call mmap is too much < 1311388343 279961 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthogonal persistence is the only way to escape that dichotomy, although those are the wrong terms; it is a simpler system than a filesystem < 1311388347 789769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well, I meant that mmap has the right sort of semantics, it's just that it should be implict rather than explicit < 1311388369 287445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a while you start seeing mmap reversed, in that the disk is just swap space for memory < 1311388370 671288 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1311388372 140070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gets paged in and out < 1311388384 870640 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's orthogonal persistence: RAM is just disk cache, < 1311388387 549166 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]. < 1311388389 68302 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's literally it. < 1311388395 26324 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the entire idea. < 1311388395 801387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I know what it is < 1311388417 743305 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Of course, the ideal would be if a non-volatile RAM interface was plugged into the CPU < 1311388421 860014 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or otherwise into the computer < 1311388422 138139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hibernation is more along the same lines; it just swaps data out of the sort of implementation-detail storage that doesn't exist while the system is off < 1311388425 225895 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as it stands, software has to handle it < 1311388432 291536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know how Linux loads executables, nowadays? < 1311388436 496660 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right; hibernation in @ is just a flush and a power cut < 1311388446 943415 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I forget, but it involves an mmap-alike of some sort < 1311388450 591736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just mmaps them, and lets page faults do the actual loading < 1311388455 894389 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1311388456 441601 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Blah < 1311388461 426939 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap is my favourite system call < 1311388467 189189 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's that little glimmer of light in Unix. < 1311388467 607414 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, is there any sort of restart that isn't hibernate and restore? < 1311388477 347224 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Uh... you could wipe your disk and reinstall @. < 1311388484 534295 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno why you would, though. < 1311388490 700400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: presumably it would be the equivalent of kill -15 0 < 1311388502 595201 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also how any sane ld.so does things. < 1311388504 773764 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ouch; that would delete all your files < 1311388507 701986 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably lazily, as the GC runs < 1311388507 899626 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what kill -15 0 < 1311388509 448992 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does < 1311388513 791390 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd also crash your system forever < 1311388517 912519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: err, really? < 1311388528 1650 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, I forget what -15 is :) < 1311388532 188393 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, what's signal 15? < 1311388534 824819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "tell every process I have permissions to tell to exit to exit" < 1311388537 864693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it's SIGTERM < 1311388541 187926 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1311388545 575075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like -9 except that the programs get a chance to do cleanup < 1311388550 712996 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know TERM :P < 1311388572 53637 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically, if you kill all running code, then not only is there no code for the computer to run (???), but there's also no references to any objects < 1311388581 938796 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and objects without references get garbage collected < 1311388595 253798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 0 doesn't mean "all running code", it means "all processes I have permissions to signal" < 1311388599 233999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is presumably quite different < 1311388600 761806 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's a really, really slow disk wipe, basically, assuming that GCs still run with no code for the computer to run < 1311388616 713583 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, OK. It would just remove all _your_ files, unless someone else has a reference to them. < 1311388642 28227 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure there's any distinction between "kill this code" and "destroy this object", anyway < 1311388646 881391 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think thunks < 1311388660 105366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not deleting the code, just telling it to stop running < 1311388667 248748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in @, presumably it'd go into some sort of paused state < 1311388668 200101 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're deleting the thunk that represents that running code < 1311388686 450681 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, you just want to tell the scheduler to stop switching to all objects you can access, then < 1311388687 6938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in UNIX, you have two separate concepts; the editor, and the file that it edits < 1311388694 350256 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd just lock up your session, including post-reboot < 1311388717 223924 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The problems that restarts are usually used to solve -- e.g. "clear my workspace" -- are solved in different ways in @) < 1311388720 39848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: presumably @ notionally has a global scheduler that schedules for everyone in the universe, although it's actually implemented in a decentralised way < 1311388725 463177 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and user responsiveness is the top priority, more or less < 1311388731 959341 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code will never cause your keyboard and mouse to stop working < 1311388736 619032 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because it's lagging your system) < 1311388743 315922 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'll always be able to kill miscreant processes < 1311388764 653910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming no scheduler bugs < 1311388769 345673 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1311388780 552936 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But @ is basically designed so that every component is too simple to fail. < 1311388790 610767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's responsible for scheduling the scheduler? or is it somehow more "special" than all the other functions? < 1311388793 178046 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. capability security in itself cannot fail, because it's more an observation than code at all < 1311388804 565884 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, objects could be responsible for their own scheduling, although that has a whole bag of issues; I'm not sure what my scheduler model looks like because I'm not sure what my concurrency model looks like because I'm not sure what my language looks like. < 1311388806 634835 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See a pattern yet?) < 1311388812 470767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1311388819 18373 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ may seem underdesigned, but it's really just that there's so _much_ to think about < 1311388824 792456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'd think the language would be caused by the concurrency model, not cause it < 1311388831 978738 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: interdependency < 1311388833 814263 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like the UI < 1311388845 792941 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's this big knot at the core of @, but if you look closely, it's actually a point < 1311388860 848714 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like a bunch of concepts tangled up that you have to work out at the same time, but they're actually all the same concept < 1311388861 265834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still dislike the statement that capability security is an observation < 1311388874 971916 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it is; the only time an actual bit started existing was at the network boundary < 1311388896 151336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what prevents you just guessing at references to objects? < 1311388911 990595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is the /internal/ storage for them kilobyte-long hashes? < 1311388925 883555 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The internal storage for them is a pointer. But you don't have the ability to cast a random integer to a pointer. < 1311388932 211908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: aha < 1311388934 776021 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Giving you that capability would be insane; it's insanely privileged. < 1311388943 504945 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Note that @ does not rely on the hardware's really coarse, bad mechanisms for security. < 1311388948 853821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if a bug does give me the ability to cast a random integer to a pointer, it completely blows open the security < 1311388951 840363 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This is why it can run in ring 0, and do things like syscall inlining. < 1311388961 68934 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, it blows open the local security. < 1311388963 577017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's what I was getting at < 1311388966 816688 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's like a root escalation exploit in Linux. < 1311388971 995268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311388973 436239 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still doesn't give you the power to demand objects from other computers. < 1311388982 283279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably, a similar bug would be a remote arbitrary code execution bug < 1311388990 536858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could also occur < 1311388998 936546 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right; but you don't see that much in high-level languages at all. < 1311389001 864987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that there's only the one layer of security < 1311389005 268414 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without eval, or whatever. < 1311389013 217607 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Nah; there's as many layers as there are objects < 1311389015 23786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: we discovered one in Rodney (#nethack's bot) recently < 1311389019 272828 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language? < 1311389021 640479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl < 1311389025 47858 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any eval calls? < 1311389027 47495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was using eval, without taint checks < 1311389030 700547 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :See. :) < 1311389039 714391 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BTW, in @, eval would be insanely rare, because who stores code as a string? < 1311389045 187608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was trying to regex the eval, but there was a misplaced ^ < 1311389047 301298 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, you can have eval : AST → a < 1311389049 151397 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still insane < 1311389054 316574 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ouch < 1311389059 621224 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: all I see is typing bugs < 1311389070 77423 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(taint checks are basically a really rudimentary type system) < 1311389074 769962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1311389082 635828 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BTW, casting integer-to-object-leaking bugs seem really contrived, because that's another low-level-ism < 1311389084 982072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, Perl's taint checking is identical to the Identity monad < 1311389097 413649 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl taint checking == phantom types < 1311389099 40849 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :data OK < 1311389100 426562 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :data NotOK < 1311389104 263510 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Data okornot = ... < 1311389109 459653 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafe :: Data OK -> ... < 1311389116 803857 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thisiscool :: Data NotOK -> Data OK < 1311389117 81400 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1311389117 776943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: here's a fun fact: Linux has a system call that puts a process into a "secure" mode where it only accepts 4 system calls < 1311389120 483298 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: there's this big knot at the core of @, but if you look closely, it's actually a point <-- so, basically, just the same as feather? >:) < 1311389124 647751 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1311389130 307127 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which 4 calls? < 1311389135 524742 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I take it you know this because you're using it? < 1311389136 219987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are just enough to get data in and send it out, doing anything else gets you kill -9ed < 1311389139 586484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm not < 1311389140 371534 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311389143 753981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you've told me about this before < 1311389148 673786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way to get out of the mode, because the syscall that would take you out of it is not one of those < 1311389154 633581 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, so. Read, write, exit, and...? < 1311389167 221286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember precisely what they are < 1311389171 16321 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :) My current plan to tackle it is to try a bunch of "mini-@s" that don't try to do nearly as much, and have a specific, inadequate instantiation of the inner point. < 1311389171 214327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt arbitrary read/write are allowed < 1311389172 344367 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, probably mmap. < 1311389175 379685 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should give me more insight on what the point has to be. < 1311389182 159504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, that there's also a getter to see whether you're in this mode or not, but no way to run it < 1311389182 576956 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what the point has to be" -- heh. < 1311389186 474605 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could only read/write to things where you already have the file descriptor. < 1311389191 687700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you aren't in the mode, it returns 0, and if you are in the mode, it crashes < 1311389192 154654 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also help me figure out a lot of details, especially relating to its implementation on existing hardware. < 1311389200 259851 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, @ stops at the hardware layer!) < 1311389203 675763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the getter always returns 0 even though the value is settable < 1311389207 118026 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know, it surprises me too! Let's hope I don't forget that!) < 1311389223 508806 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1311389232 774303 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you could set up a signal handler before you get put in the box < 1311389235 972752 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and catch your crash < 1311389236 453670 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311389239 220243 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't catch kill -9 < 1311389241 613866 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's read, write, _exit, and sigreturn. < 1311389245 499994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aha < 1311389256 197092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, sigreturn's allowed? that means that signal handlers are < 1311389260 127298 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311389260 683477 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've always really wanted an exploit in kill -9; it replaces your code with a suicider, and sets your priority really high < 1311389262 704277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assume they can't actually /do/ much but read/write/exit < 1311389268 175084 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So if you could somehow override that code before the kernel jumps to you... < 1311389270 507326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: heh, is that how it works? < 1311389274 716339 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try to kill me?? I WILL COME BACK STRONGER THAN EVER < 1311389276 266579 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep < 1311389280 779408 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or is that OOM kill? < 1311389282 153141 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget, but anyway < 1311389285 893087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed it just marked the process as zombie, or something like that < 1311389299 491094 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe sigreturn is in case you set signals before entering restricted mode < 1311389309 424900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it should just do the same code as _exit, which already has the right semantics < 1311389318 760667 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's probably OOM kill I'm thinking of < 1311389321 660084 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it would need to free up its memory < 1311389325 78836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what's the syscall to get into that mode? I thought it might be prctl, but I was probably wrong < 1311389328 788678 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably just turns it into an _exit call < 1311389331 148831 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The suicide code, I mean < 1311389331 346623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was wrong < 1311389334 583818 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :prctl. < 1311389346 895464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, found it < 1311389347 93219 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With PR_SET_SECCOMP < 1311389353 785969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading the man page for prctl, but missed it < 1311389356 494270 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, I hope you have a bit more insight to @ now < 1311389360 492201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yes < 1311389367 324621 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hopefully like it a bit more, or at least it hopefully surprises you a little < 1311389379 736768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort-of had the fundamentals down (they're pretty similar to something I was thinking of myself), but the details are interesting < 1311389395 385755 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that @ sort of changes a bit whenever I talk about it to respond to criticism; does Feather do that too? :p < 1311389400 360135 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, criticism or questions < 1311389405 912409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no, Feather changes whenever I try to implement it < 1311389409 255947 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311389433 732225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main problem with Feather is not so much design flaws, as inability to start without going into an infinite loop < 1311389445 337488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation is badly needed to prove that that doesn't happen < 1311389469 433189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already had to add a boolean to every object that simply queries if it's # or not < 1311389473 795819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to get off the ground < 1311389476 408810 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how long until someone stops an @ program from accessing more than a certain few types of object to stop it leaking memory (e.g. including no arrays), but gives it integers < 1311389481 552992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a really specific thing to have, and I'm not sure what to name it < 1311389492 293012 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I'll run a program that leaves them a nice message and gets to work on constructing Graham's number < 1311389495 29681 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I won't) < 1311389522 636887 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, wait, you didn't know that gnome's file opener let you type in a location? < 1311389543 323575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no < 1311389545 103505 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's the top-left icon in the dialogue; click it and it'll focus by default < 1311389546 521725 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome < 1311389552 696849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, that's blown my mind to < 1311389553 344772 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also type directories in there, and their names complete < 1311389554 712615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1311389559 914637 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and will change to that directory < 1311389565 90031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it does that, it used to do that before I couldn't find the location bar at all < 1311389576 18523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was fine with that dialog, other than its insane slowness at loading /usr/bin < 1311389585 675787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pressing / makes the location bar magically appear < 1311389589 883078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other characters often don't) < 1311389599 983588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although I suspect ~ probably does) < 1311389610 168407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another pet hate of mine: alt-f2 doesn't expand ~ but interprets it literally < 1311389628 364059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I write ~/esoteric/intercal, it interprets it as /home/ais523/~/esoteric/intercal < 1311389631 434255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is obviously not what I wanted < 1311389633 730376 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that sucks < 1311389645 842799 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really wish I knew what @'s point looked like :( < 1311389671 791089 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I try to envision what a screenshot of @ would look like, I honestly just see a black screen < 1311389723 694734 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wear a special hat and think about what you want user interface < 1311389731 239009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it would look too dissimilar from a modern OS < 1311389746 621847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the UI and internal representation are not necessarily linked at all, nor should they be < 1311389746 819522 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: your conception of that being a bunch of terminal windows and Emacs? < 1311389759 676960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that's not actually what my desktop normally looks like < 1311389762 333462 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The UI is just how you look at the internal representation < 1311389772 635407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm, it has IRC, email, two browsers, terminal < 1311389774 925620 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, yes, things can have a nice veneer over that < 1311389781 42424 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can always look at an object directlry < 1311389782 444334 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :directly < 1311389783 757394 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :inspection-style < 1311389790 922070 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@'s interface also doubles as the best programming interface ever < 1311389795 171819 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and inspector/debugger, too < 1311389797 535480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, in @, I'd have things available for doing the same activities < 1311389808 687772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I imagine their UI would be similar < 1311389819 926063 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep, but it won't have a traditional window manager < 1311389823 154695 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what it /will/ have < 1311389823 352730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. whatever I was using to look at a document full of hyperlinks probably wouldn't be Firefox, or even a Web browser < 1311389827 495506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would control in a similar way < 1311389832 288029 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to think it'd look like Emacs, but with objects instead of text < 1311389834 77451 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have no idea < 1311389835 930617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and look similar, as that's what people want hyperlinked documents to look like < 1311389842 962012 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oberon has a good interface, I can take inspiration from that < 1311389847 83003 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's too text-oriented < 1311389866 667175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one big advantage of being text-oriented is that you can edit everything with the same operations < 1311389876 192845 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do that with objects too, the operations are just more mind-bending < 1311389884 325383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've converted images into whatever that text-based X format is before, and edited them with Emacs < 1311389895 813113 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xbm, I think < 1311389896 133317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the equivalent for objects would be < 1311389909 986696 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: an ASCII-ish version of the serialised object? < 1311389911 516214 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been meaning to try Oberon < 1311389915 964796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: fair enough < 1311389916 385253 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, "text" is a bad word. < 1311389925 257744 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to try it, but I remember having problems < 1311389927 968624 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programmers think: text, string, and they think of... well, strings. < 1311389932 990991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :editing the serialised version of something directly is a hack < 1311389939 685453 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so is editing xbm in Emacs < 1311389940 900322 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's arbitrary to say that text is a bunch of Unicode codepoints < 1311389945 743669 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why those, and not bolding? < 1311389946 21351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no, that's what I mean < 1311389951 714935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I was doing was a hack, in a way < 1311389953 624136 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1311389964 911266 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, the more idiomatic version would be looking at it in an object inspector < 1311389966 260292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, bold is ESC [ 1 m < 1311389969 22595 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And poking around changing things < 1311389972 555311 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Very funny < 1311389975 626827 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's hardly semantic :) < 1311389995 242993 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically I think strings as we see them in modern systems don't appear naturally in @ much at all < 1311390004 866844 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "document segment" works just as well < 1311390005 353883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I suppose the problem is that objects never really have the interfaces you want them to have < 1311390010 448902 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't you name a bookmark with a bolded wrod in it? < 1311390011 494221 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :word < 1311390013 989133 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a link? < 1311390027 39038 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a video? (ok, not lookupable -- this isn't SpectateSwamp Desktop Search -- but the point remains) < 1311390027 462330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the name would be a pain to type < 1311390034 700989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: gah you mentioned SSDS < 1311390036 267264 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't have to type names in full < 1311390040 110997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an appropriate context < 1311390045 382022 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311390054 673061 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But basically, the point is that strings are only common because our I/O interfaces do strings. < 1311390077 411213 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time, you just want to print/show something, or to read something, and in @ you don't need to coerce things into Unicode codepoints to do that < 1311390078 853101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you access things in SSDS, anyway? I know that everything is named with videos, but it seems a little unwieldy < 1311390085 447844 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you just give them tags, I think < 1311390087 611589 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it searches those tags < 1311390089 324580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(originally filmed with camcorder pointed at screen) < 1311390093 133071 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a text file < 1311390097 373940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that seems altogether too sane < 1311390112 105130 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: SSDS = grep with automatic video playing, I think < 1311390117 131317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1311390127 447598 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SS claims SSDS is a "desktop search" application. However, SSDS qualifies as "desktop search" only in SS's own definition and when using SS's own computer usage patterns; it does not qualify as a "desktop search" application in any other definition of the term. In most definitions, a "desktop search" system indexes the user's personal files, extracts metadata from the files, and allows the user to perform searches on this metadata; for example, "songs < 1311390127 645722 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : by a composer called John" or "instant messaging conversations that mention pizza" or "email about Project X". SSDS, on the other hand, requires the user to convert all data to plain text format, thus losing all formatting and metadata, and merge everything in one file. For certain operations, the user is required to maintain such index themselves. Further, ordinary desktop search systems allow the user to see all metadata, such as "this matching song < 1311390127 843823 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : is 4:33 long" or "the last pizza conversation took place yesterday" or "the boss mailed to you about Project X using Microsoft LookOut, the bastard"; SSDS only allows you to see matching likes in SSDS index file. For example, if you search for "Project X", it is difficult to see when, by who, and (for example) with what program the e-mail was sent with." < 1311390132 837184 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- http://www.thestupidestmanonearth.com/DesktopSearch.aspx < 1311390134 618500 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :long paste, but oh well < 1311390136 858087 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"At best, SSDS is a simplistic linear search application that attempts to match search terms against a text file - and with extra features that allows the user to show images and videos, also in random order." < 1311390143 716386 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, so it doesn't even play the videos you mention < 1311390148 675631 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's {grep, random mplayer} < 1311390154 124478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311390159 957787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, /me /clears < 1311390164 142204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that much SSDS is too much for me < 1311390170 377823 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, the UNIX stuff with pipes and grep and so on works much better. But, of course, that is UNIX. SSDS is a similar (but not as well designed) things for Windows. < 1311390185 684998 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anyways you can do that stuff on Windows by using Cygwin or whatever, too. < 1311390191 294863 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pipes are a good idea < 1311390197 297417 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, they're less effective on bytes < 1311390207 359213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: have you seen PowerShell? < 1311390218 514680 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes; good ideas, but it's not usable < 1311390219 986204 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There shouldn't be just stdin and stdout if you're putting in pipes < 1311390225 921578 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I haven't < 1311390228 953260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have one command that shuffles the lines of stdin and that way, you can play videos in random order. < 1311390236 114428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the feeling that someone at Microsoft thought of @, realised they'd never be able to implement it, and wrote PowerShell instead < 1311390245 911608 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/monadic-shell.html < 1311390246 745845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is unusable for most operations because it doesn't really mesh with things well < 1311390251 730794 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :| is (>>=) < 1311390258 434906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's called shuf(1) < 1311390276 908736 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I have a feeling @ is the kind of thing many people start thinking about, but then realise what they're doing and quickly stop < 1311390279 205897 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, then use that. < 1311390279 623342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: PowerShell is apparently very useful for Windows administration merely because it can access things like the registry easily that other tools can't < 1311390299 318468 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I wasn't clever enough to stop, and now I have to implement it < 1311390309 552279 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With barely no knowledge of standard PC hardware and OS design to start with < 1311390331 890966 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, oklopol's probably-long-abandoned OS that he talked about ages ago has similarities to @ < 1311390340 180418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: anyway, I think I've figured out what a capability is, at the hardware level; it's simply a bit pattern stored /in a memory location that lets it be used as a pointer to an object/ < 1311390369 354910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I'm tired, my eyes read there as being an unmatched opening paren in my last line, and there aren't any parens at all < 1311390376 199388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just keep seeing one for some reason < 1311390376 616074 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311390378 748105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't even work out where < 1311390384 920156 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediaplayer `ls *.ogv | shuf` < 1311390390 345273 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A capability is a pointer, pretty much; which ends up as bits in memory that are interpreted in a certain way < 1311390394 270228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311390399 226428 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: s/ls/echo/ < 1311390410 60320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's distinguished by an integer with the same value by the type system < 1311390412 105310 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes, or echo will do too < 1311390421 403379 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, integers have tag bits in @. < 1311390423 71812 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe.) < 1311390423 627770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as this is standard hardware, the type system is being checked at "compile time" (actually "convert to x86 machine instrucitons time") < 1311390426 429664 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small integers, that is. < 1311390443 304042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether that's upon editing, or much later < 1311390468 706931 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No... echo won't do < 1311390470 153723 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be agonising when/if @ is "done"-ish, but has insufficient compatibility layers to actually use day-to-day < 1311390481 793103 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh right; you need them separated by \n < 1311390481 991104 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because echo put everyone on one line < 1311390495 86656 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fun fact: TUNES wanted a DOS emulator to start with) < 1311390508 338551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that Linux has two syscalls that only exist for dosemu? < 1311390535 908329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they both put an x86 system into virtual 8086 mode (with different parameters), and fail with ENOSYS on any other sort of system < 1311390540 697504 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311390549 13892 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has configured a kernel before, shockingly enough < 1311390559 415252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I didn't realise they were involved in kernel config < 1311390579 907951 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it mentions vm86 or something < 1311390581 681028 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Most of the traditional knowledge on OS design you've already thrown out the window. < 1311390590 758691 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, Genera exists. < 1311390593 525378 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does Smalltalk. < 1311390599 144710 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did say "traditional". < 1311390601 828776 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The low-level details are what matter to me, anyway. :p < 1311390607 284372 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And orthogonal persistence does have quite the bit of literature on it. < 1311390611 1267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's similar to Smalltalk < 1311390617 923397 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : So does Smalltalk. < 1311390618 708239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more so than typical OSes < 1311390627 644017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I know, I was agreeing with you < 1311390628 61336 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you're ignoring the low-level details that are really painful to deal with. < 1311390632 13616 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: incidentally, one of my main worries about @ is that non-programmers won't be able to learn it, but... < 1311390634 415350 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be the algorithm to find the best way to use registers in a DVI file? < 1311390639 190392 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most obviously, dealing with hardware's task switching. < 1311390640 585088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still like programs to be serialisable as text, incidentally < 1311390652 655591 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still will need to handle paging, though. < 1311390654 84570 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think @ just has a learning curve, maybe a larger one than most common OSes, but it'll confuse you less once you learn it and you'll be able to accomplish so much more < 1311390662 682263 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also, OK, but why? < 1311390670 592501 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sharing over IRC? Yes, desirable, but this is a limitation of IRC. < 1311390674 239432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: fun fact: GNU Hurd was originally aimed at 32-bit processors, because 16-bit was common then and they wanted to future-proof < 1311390677 230677 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(@-chat would just share objects) < 1311390681 906374 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually text documents) < 1311390684 897492 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1311390688 741532 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it possible to make a non-porgrammers friendly shell over @ < 1311390697 270604 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The same is true of the rest of GNU. < 1311390697 548799 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am i loon < 1311390705 519700 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Sure, but that wouldn't be @... what's the difference between programmer and user? < 1311390718 16826 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Their idea was "by the time this is usable, 16-bit will be an old piece of shit, so why care now?" < 1311390723 220907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think it's because it makes them easier to store on a wide range of devices (including things that aren't computer-related at all), and a wide range of implementations < 1311390725 211111 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: If you want I can paste you an explanation of @ I wrote semi-recently into /msg (it's long) < 1311390727 732967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes < 1311390733 60071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity they didn't start with 64 bits instead < 1311390739 782884 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What non-computer-related devices is it easier for? < 1311390744 908615 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you mean codepoints, not text. < 1311390745 603474 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit of an easier jump, though. < 1311390747 774417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: writing down on paper < 1311390755 467364 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you consider x86. < 1311390761 177917 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Um, you've used paper before, right? < 1311390763 969065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I mean what exists on my keyboard < 1311390764 540731 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can draw boxes and things there. < 1311390768 343681 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation to a flat memory model was one *hell* of a jump. < 1311390769 950430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: not reliably < 1311390784 184507 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, that's different; keyboard-inputs are one ... view of @ code. < 1311390784 382202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can be off by a millimetre or too really easily < 1311390797 286960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the set of characters in printable ASCII has better error correction < 1311390800 7978 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically it would be reifying the intentions. (elliott buzzword!) < 1311390814 69806 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: sure. as-is i only have a really vague idea of @ that i can't really describe < 1311390814 472907 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically you want to be able to get the actions that are required to recreate some code < 1311390819 650718 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: me too < 1311390821 569974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yes, I think so < 1311390829 413721 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Right < 1311390831 271201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including in an implementation that nobody currently envisages < 1311390834 921344 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, that's not necessarily text, but. < 1311390838 957461 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, well that's a lot harder < 1311390852 605951 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what you want is, I think, something that's not actually possible, but not something that /should/ necessarily be possible < 1311390856 478951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, I don't want it to be just a serialised form of the internals of something < 1311390859 260038 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can achieve what you want in _specific_ situations < 1311390861 67866 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well right < 1311390867 19703 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it'd depend on /interfaces/ < 1311390869 787791 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't avoid that < 1311390910 429277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can, in that I think that even, say, 100 years into the future, no matter what formats and interfaces people are actually using, they'll have some way to represent sequences of octets < 1311390913 877230 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :♪ < 1311390915 989508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to store old files "unchanged" < 1311390933 255592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'll probably be able to get C89 compilers, even if they're seen as something antiquated and only of academic interest < 1311390943 345441 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know how to convert BBCode or HTML to Markdown that uses footer links? < 1311390945 930738 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to paste this to monqy :P < 1311390948 880781 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has a bunch of links < 1311390949 78802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even @ could plausibly have a C89 compiler, although there wouldn't be much reason to use it < 1311390967 403195 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I plan some kind of "weakly-integrated" POSIX layer out of necessity] < 1311390974 104591 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe in case you want to run C programs < 1311390995 128146 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would anyone ever want to do that < 1311390999 987381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I would say you'd missed the point, but then I'd have to describe what the point is, and I'm not sure I can < 1311391095 964302 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this elusive point, so hard to describe < 1311391134 599062 :ralc!~ralc@79.142.230.243.static.knet.bolignet.dk QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1311391139 88014 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of crazy possible future things, does anyone know what logs have stuff relating to feather? I'm suddenly really curious < 1311391148 520096 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hmm, I'm really tempted to just put this up as HTML somewhere < 1311391148 718002 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1311391152 649282 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, grep -r Feather . < 1311391178 274089 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: did you find that files-suck.html too narrow as well as ais < 1311391180 968604 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311391278 976357 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really sure what it's getting at as a solution < 1311391312 524669 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i was talking about the view < 1311391315 472161 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311391316 900586 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in visually < 1311391354 760928 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311391363 206103 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see it just fine < 1311391367 141166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, saying that existing abstractions are bad is OK even if you don't have something better to suggest < 1311391443 206229 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but i also didn't understand how saying something is bad could possibly be "too narrow" so I pulled some miserable conclusion jumpery < 1311391659 124717 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone have a unicode return arrow < 1311391660 734651 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1311391664 1530 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :↵ < 1311391664 419049 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :caret < 1311391666 34206 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric : - < 1311391666 590886 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- < 1311391667 702455 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ah thanks < 1311391813 209590 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on greping for feather in logs, is this with the expectation that i have every log file :( < 1311391909 316723 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311391914 147873 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exclamation mark logs to get them all < 1311391920 194422 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok does anyone have a place for me to put this html file < 1311391928 216270 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: also, install Bitstream Chartered it is good font < 1311391988 860762 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1311391993 248693 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1311392014 54418 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311392017 87443 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see your notice < 1311392018 573758 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :use rsync < 1311392020 758126 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311392284 124718 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: also do you have bitstream charter this is totes important < 1311392306 490047 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i searched fro it but then it wanted me to buy it for $99 i think i did something wrong < 1311392313 356254 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1311392313 780222 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MSleep < 1311392335 757670 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: its in your package manager < 1311392337 110176 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should put the Cygwin installer on my desktop or something < 1311392366 929882 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: xfonts-scalable or something < 1311392372 260123 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hmm < 1311392380 733808 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: oh, texlive-fonts-recommended should get you it < 1311392391 786266 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that give syou postscript fonts < 1311392393 848271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is better < 1311392458 686901 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :help i dont use debia n o rhwat ever that is help < 1311392475 705518 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i secretly already have it but never knew < 1311392483 338290 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: what os do you use < 1311392489 215752 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a, bad os < 1311392491 853523 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :arhclinux is that bad < 1311392496 984467 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i ab ad person < 1311392500 419482 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1311392503 99060 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :) < 1311392505 382125 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1311392527 751770 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme find charter for arch < 1311392535 96557 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: pacman -S xorg-fonts-type1 < 1311392539 486599 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pacman -S arch-sucks < 1311392563 300864 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1311392594 362519 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i dont use (worse distributuieon here) < 1311392624 183387 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does dcc work for you < 1311392630 85722 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so maybe < 1311392638 103758 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see that < 1311392658 264776 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's literally just my forum post reformatted and with one bit crossed out < 1311392659 758782 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo it failed < 1311392701 824838 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: meh, do you have a gpg key < 1311392710 434469 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget if i ever bothered < 1311392715 287839 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1311392715 826915 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :psht < 1311392719 813641 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just sprunge it < 1311392731 702547 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any good distributions i am honestly completely dumb at knowing things about them < 1311392741 404245 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opa's do statement seems a bit magical :( < 1311392742 265223 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only @ < 1311392748 127740 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Debian because it works unlike Arch < 1311392753 843378 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311392759 972299 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaaaaaaaaaaaay < 1311392762 68511 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :me hug lambdabot < 1311392769 95474 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs elliott_ <3 < 1311392772 305812 :ghoulmaster!~ghoulmast@254.sub-174-252-52.myvzw.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311392782 546184 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i glanced at opa then decided it is not for me < 1311392801 721345 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit wait monqy < 1311392804 735751 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :learning ur and a bunch of other unrelated languages first at the very least < 1311392806 840069 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't download that i havent stled the hr yet < 1311392808 764669 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(999 < 1311392814 179402 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its UNEBARBEL < 1311392816 1931 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix$var.("yay! "++).show.(:[]) < 1311392817 727064 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay! [yay... < 1311392820 445480 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late but i havent started viewing it yet < 1311392823 705582 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will remove it < 1311392828 840801 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rmeoved < 1311392830 55174 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "\^AACTION hugs elliott_\^A" < 1311392830 995804 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "\SOHACTION hugs elliott_\SOH" < 1311392833 893155 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311392877 193861 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ok see /msg < 1311392883 757050 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mistake will, never be known, < 1311392893 863911 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :downeloded < 1311392934 393432 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> text "\^AACTION hugs elliott_\^A" < 1311392934 871508 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ACTION hugs elliott_ < 1311392983 856552 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the control characters are stripped < 1311393033 330075 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (ACTION may or may not still work.)S < 1311393033 566674 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION may or may not still work. < 1311393051 886443 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311393053 889392 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :!hug < 1311393056 56829 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one works. < 1311393072 86633 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :!python print "test" < 1311393074 202853 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1311393090 205148 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :!show python < 1311393090 596963 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh python < 1311393097 347846 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: btw this is from March, so of course @ has changed almost entirely since then :) < 1311393101 809817 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not really) < 1311393102 888131 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot definitely doesn't work with ACTION any more. < 1311393104 422490 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( :) < 1311393109 535287 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311393111 462235 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: also that is from my editing of it right now < 1311393112 42943 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strikeout < 1311393117 227009 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :!python print "ACTION test" < 1311393117 976494 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​.ACTION test. < 1311393121 923629 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oop < 1311393129 19960 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip < 1311393141 450774 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, this is WTFy on Homestuck < 1311393143 770916 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oop was even a bad way to describe what i was thinking about in the time < 1311393148 395841 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh thanks for the reminder < 1311393152 613323 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no way to access current update from previous update < 1311393157 845271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: sorry i cannot answer your questions for about ten minutes I must READ HOMESTUCK < 1311393187 198585 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD HE;S JDGING ME < 1311393201 67419 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god the top-left panel Sgeo click it < 1311393213 206366 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing i hate homestuck < 1311393242 717550 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: when did your opinion develop from nonplussedness to hatred < 1311393246 556025 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is nonplusedness a word < 1311393259 689892 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: when i tried reading it after expressing nonplusedness < 1311393270 816312 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how far did you get < 1311393274 327512 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquot its UNEBARBEL < 1311393276 684279 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1311393279 35232 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote its UNEBARBEL < 1311393280 354581 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :540) its UNEBARBEL < 1311393280 770651 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prepares for answer he's already guessed < 1311393295 954648 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i started roughly where i left off i.e. somewhere in the middle maybe < 1311393301 953129 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: lol which act < 1311393305 387970 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant recall < 1311393312 504678 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: which page number < 1311393314 630819 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which anything < 1311393317 536787 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no recolaection < 1311393325 686791 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was happening < 1311393327 138485 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i skipped around a bit because i am an awful person < 1311393335 537604 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(plenty of people think they're about half-way through but are actually in the first act) < 1311393341 548648 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn'ta ct 1 < 1311393384 780846 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should start it again and go until at least the game that starts act four. it starts out boring but it really does develop. and skipping around is just going to confuse you. < 1311393404 490764 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : is nonplusedness a word <-- no, it needs another s, but then it's a doubleplusgood word. < 1311393441 115919 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont hate things for being confused by them < 1311393471 555548 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never said that's why you hated it but obviously it is completely inconceivable that someone could actually hate homestuck < 1311393486 815623 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1311393489 104771 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ok probably not. i doubt there's many people who actually hate homestuck while liking sbahj, though.) < 1311393489 559407 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that do? < 1311393493 872633 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: thx for the CTCP "" < 1311393550 345366 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant fully remember why i hate it but i remember finding the troll gimmicks insufferable and having to pay attention and care to understand things didn't help and it always felt really awkward to me like it's trying too hard or something idk < 1311393604 766050 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is only a mild hatered < 1311393639 720887 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gimmicks are meant to be insufferable, there's a bookmarklet thing that normalifies it though... but really, 99 percent of things that would class as "trying too hard" I'd say are jokes that only make sense with the context, assuming that was during skipping around < 1311393643 607490 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well I'll just conclude you're subhuman < 1311393652 741282 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :totaly < 1311393673 431787 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!@#$ broken update < 1311393675 247591 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of trying-too-hard near the start too but that's mostly intentional to set the scene < 1311393693 678704 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!@#$ crashed MSPA site < 1311393719 173457 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing i classify as trying too hard that is maybe not in the typical normal nonsubhuman definition: i mean when it tries to take itself too seriously < 1311393732 825608 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1311393756 126643 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome: Stop having troubles connecting < 1311393757 505052 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to the other stuff at the beginning yeah < 1311393757 921655 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: considering that almost all the major plot developments are sandwiched by jokes, I dunno if that's true < 1311393766 735018 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really you should start again and just go through it all in order, it really picks up in act three, act four, and act five act two (in that order) < 1311393773 1490 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE A SPARE WEEK THOUGH < 1311393775 210727 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just makes you subhuman < 1311393800 573099 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :clases ends next week < 1311393818 78852 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :subhumans like me learn school during the sumer < 1311393866 24866 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CHROME: STOP HAVING TROUBLE WITH MSPA < 1311393866 845922 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.245.10 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311393869 320437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1311393893 108356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really, homestuck has issues, and they're mostly pacing issues. and the first three acts are kind of a drag, although pretty funny. < 1311393893 925118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how many working panels were there? Just one (Jade)? < 1311393907 197229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: but personally i'd be surprised if you didn't like it if you gave it a chance from the very start to the end < 1311393909 538007 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1311394032 46301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ok im waiting for the site to stabilise before reading < 1311394043 916967 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is too impatient for that < 1311394052 187576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ANYWAY THAT @ EXPLANATION HUH < 1311394057 431507 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION may be part of the problem < 1311394066 440191 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i was too busy trying to rationalize my subhuman hatred of homestuck < 1311394079 518946 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i';ll finsih reading it after brushing my teeth i have to do that now < 1311394093 820728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you should start from the beginning >:| < 1311394094 18750 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....finish reading it? In less than 6 hours? < 1311394096 256600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i realise you weren't serious) < 1311394106 233667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :re-start, i mean < 1311394123 647000 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what's a reasonable amount of time to read all of Homestuck? < 1311394130 573406 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did it in less than a week < 1311394147 118072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: um well it's about twenty hours of consecutive effort < 1311394159 68329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe more < 1311394172 3177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say twenty four hours of consecutive effort < 1311394176 892128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you put in five hours a day you can read it in five dyas < 1311394177 708310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :days < 1311394269 758575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/oh8Fl.png <-- meanwhile, reddit discovers the least tasteful way to do a remembrance comic ever < 1311394272 429383 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this instability is Hussie trolling us < 1311394297 22674 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, looks like a fake < 1311394355 944784 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) i meant finish reading at.html (2) haha just kidding about doing it after brushing my teeth i have other stuff to do also woops < 1311394373 553618 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, link to thread? < 1311394385 58896 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: but it's...short... < 1311394388 205354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: top of main page < 1311394662 391930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you mix an rgb with an rgba using the alpha im dumb < 1311394747 651234 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@c-24-9-98-117.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311394758 552689 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at.html? < 1311394787 942448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1311394800 376376 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"old.r * (1-alpha) + new.r * alpha" (plus same for g/b) is very traditional. < 1311394809 332020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: thx < 1311394817 132115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: (I've pushed configurable colours and blockinfo to mcmap) < 1311394818 459986 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I expect you to be psychic and realize that I want a link < 1311394822 407001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no link < 1311394833 735935 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Now I'm working on respecting the alpha values in a dumb way by only looking one down < 1311394838 470988 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a start. < 1311394849 107809 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a fart. < 1311394870 818184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Also: new is the one with the alpha, right? < 1311394873 614341 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the RGBA. < 1311394885 28494 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's the one "on top". < 1311394893 1250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1311394902 212203 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that was assuming the 1 == full opacity scheme, sometimes it's flipped. < 1311394921 119521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, erm, it's two-five-five = full opacity. < 1311394939 448802 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, scale as necessary. < 1311394957 405503 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(old.r * (255-alpha) + new.r * alpha)/255 or some-such. < 1311394971 716673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1311395103 568005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Next thing I work on will be the status bar, to make that blockinfo actually useful beyond the configuration. < 1311395112 89406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I decided to just put at ~/.mcmap/colors because XDG seriously sucks. < 1311395116 37430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hope that's okay. < 1311395125 195160 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my ~/.config! (Yeah, that's okay.) < 1311395131 397333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I still have that horrible bug that shouldn't even be happening. < 1311395133 870171 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I broke code I didn't even touch. < 1311395142 177962 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : tell("MODE: %s%s%s%s%s", < 1311395142 456215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : modenames[map_mode], < 1311395142 654454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (mode == MAP_MODE_CROSS && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_FOLLOW_Y ? " (follow)" : ""), < 1311395142 654640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (mode == MAP_MODE_SURFACE && map_flags & MAP_FLAG_CHOP ? " (chop)" : ""), < 1311395142 654743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS ? " (lights)" : ""), < 1311395142 654844 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((map_flags & MAP_FLAG_LIGHTS) && (map_flags & MAP_FLAG_NIGHT) ? " (night)" : "")); < 1311395144 766924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could this send things like < 1311395151 480819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:25:11 MODE: surface[GARBLED KANJI] < 1311395156 492192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :java.io.IOException: Received string length longer than maximum allowed (23040 > 16) < 1311395172 40895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not even understand it. < 1311395213 544235 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a bit weird. < 1311395227 729455 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, gone for ~12 hours or so. -> < 1311395239 512898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: BUT YOU NEED TO FIX MY BBUGEEE < 1311395331 831069 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friend post on a tech help forum < 1311395335 481100 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gives a model number < 1311395342 820563 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helper asks which model < 1311395358 817536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:29:05 §bMODE: surface < 1311395359 15320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:29:05 MODE: surface끾 < 1311395360 955359 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's insane. < 1311395370 604135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The string is correct, but inject_to_client is fucking it up. < 1311395373 563438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow. < 1311395402 782647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ah. < 1311395405 949540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think you broke it, man. < 1311395409 82979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : jshort_write(lenb, conv_len); < 1311395410 760697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With this, somehow. < 1311395418 193821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, it just changed and it's the FIELD_STRING code. < 1311395430 365343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you nicely tell someone who's trying to help you that they asked a really stupid question? < 1311395441 331939 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be; I didn't test it too much. < 1311395462 294112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ignore them. < 1311395467 589490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Or answer it. < 1311395487 265372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK BUT ALSO what's the formula for how many iterations something with alpha N can mix with things below it before it will have no effect. < 1311395494 830883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With byte-sized colour and alpha components.) < 1311395499 211869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to ~optomize~ alpha blending. < 1311395603 768027 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the original color, I suppose. < 1311395614 848500 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Until the target color equals the new color" is the easy test, but due to rounding-down that's probably a bit too conservative. < 1311395630 221726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Meh, good enough. < 1311395716 386561 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, I did in fact break it. < 1311395716 584550 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my friend answered it < 1311395728 811631 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It needs to be conv_len/2. < 1311395740 273801 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Really... I give you a model number and I'm asked which one is it?" < 1311395754 223361 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then he answered it... again < 1311395773 872213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Committing a fix or I? < 1311395777 357428 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I teling you this < 1311395787 141775 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do it, I'm about to miss my bus. < 1311395797 967740 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feel free to put in a disparaging commit message. < 1311395817 319265 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something about everyone else always having to clean up after me or something. < 1311395850 468850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'll just include your address and tell everyone to send the bombs that-away. < 1311396023 585051 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I realized what is wrong with my optimization algorithm, although I do not know how to make a proper algorithm. I can explain by example. < 1311396062 588489 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say that there is a command - which does the next letter, = which does the next letter and sets a register to its value, and . which does the value of the register. < 1311396073 731728 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : -a-a-a-a-a-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a < 1311396087 453930 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :To optimize using my current algorithm might do like: < 1311396121 402988 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : =a....-b-b-b-b-b-b-b............ < 1311396129 442274 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to the way it computes the scoring. But better would be: < 1311396141 321254 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : =a....=b......=a........... < 1311396192 964773 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a simple circumstance, and actually there are other complications such as stack and multiple registers, and a lot more ways of interleaving. So, how to make up the proper algorithm? < 1311396267 296351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1311396284 700553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think you just have to do reordering < 1311396306 109332 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What do you mean? Can you give examples? < 1311396307 380977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1311396313 446658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait hmm < 1311396316 243492 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well looking at -a-a-a. vs. =a..=b it seems like you should always do = if you have a run of 3 or more? < 1311396319 425101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You just have to iterate it, don't you? < 1311396354 289301 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other complications. Although I will try oerjan's suggestion. < 1311396372 970560 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :-a-a. =a.=b seems to indicate it's harmless to do so with 2 as well < 1311396375 728816 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would make sense. However the other complications might cause it to fail; I don't know for sure. < 1311396383 749440 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1311396390 26300 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can try. < 1311396447 794045 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have something like -a-a-b-c-a-d-a-a it might get trickier... < 1311396454 614812 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im returned from not being here. at.html time?? < 1311396457 709383 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably want to save only a there < 1311396465 113681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: possibly!!! < 1311396492 564181 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, let's say there might be two or three or four letters for some commands. And that, you might have two registers. And a stack that saves the values of the registers but has other effects too. And, yes, also your other example -a-a-b-c-a-d-a-a < 1311396520 241652 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or even remove the first -a and the problem still holds) < 1311396533 160476 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: write it in zepto... < 1311396563 584930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: no :P < 1311396570 134215 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yocto < 1311396583 811036 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is alarming that my computer keeps running low on memory < 1311396597 505108 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well if you have _enough_ complications you probably end up with something NP-complete. < 1311396639 674338 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome, Y U EAT SO MUCH RAM? < 1311396660 752598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no < 1311396720 114701 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, Y U NO PUT NO IN Y U? < 1311396761 538306 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PORQUE NO TE CALLAS? < 1311396873 877432 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: finsihed. unrelated to design, but are any languages even suited to implementing it? < 1311396890 626229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Existing languages? No. < 1311396911 680176 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although this is an analogy, it is close enough to the problem I am having. Now let's extend this system. Each name can be from one to four letters long, and these values are stored in the register. Say there are two registers, where "=" sets the "." register and "+" sets the "," register. Now add "[" and "]" which push the values of the registers onto the stack and pop. However, "[" and "]" have other side effects and you *cannot* change or mo < 1311396923 60422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: There are two bootstrap options: Write a minimal interpreter for @lang in assembly (C is not an option at any stage), write a @lang compiler with that, switch to it; < 1311396941 922291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Or implement @lang somehow in existing OSes (is this even possible? Maybe just a facade of @lang), implement a @lang compiler in that, port it over. < 1311396942 200503 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly? < 1311396953 590663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: That's what the lower layer is being written in, yes. < 1311396960 717335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which won't be much, once @lang is up and running. < 1311396964 712615 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which flavour < 1311396972 686917 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is equivalent to the problem as long as you assume that there can possibly be up to 256 "letters" of the "alphabet") < 1311396981 873966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Probably nasm, but it'll be replaced by an assembler written for and in @ when all is said and done. < 1311396990 329767 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to learn more about @lang < 1311396995 912387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Me too. < 1311397008 480914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: If you find out, let me know. < 1311397008 759974 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1311397022 619958 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :making a compiler for a high-level language in assembly sounds like a pain < 1311397027 531673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Interpreter < 1311397033 775 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311397033 199236 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so < 1311397033 709205 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This makes me wonder if one could make a language that requires solving an unsolved problem just to see the complete specs < 1311397037 595243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Well, yeah. < 1311397046 583404 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-172-98.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311397052 201181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: But the other bootstrapping route sounds like a pain, too :) < 1311397061 402953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: This is why I'm picking a simpler language than @lang for one of the initial prototypes. < 1311397066 605375 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Lisp, say; not that hard to do in assembly. < 1311397073 697730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wildly inadequate, but I have to start somewhere. < 1311397158 205432 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard? maybe not. painful? I'd imagine so. maybe assembly just isn't my thing. I'd rather make myself a simple compiler than write it directly. < 1311397171 483183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Sure, if it's Lisp I can go tha troute. < 1311397233 285388 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me, I really have to remember my ideas for the serious prgoramming langauge i hope to make sometime to solve all of my problems forever. < 1311397234 403452 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you know any ideas about the proper algorithm to solve my problem now? It is more complicated now that I added that stuff. < 1311397240 932753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: just use @ < 1311397284 554439 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i doubt i know, but you also got cut off after "and you *cannot* change or mo" < 1311397324 682083 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :... you *cannot* change or move them! < 1311397373 330045 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok. that means the only the only thing you could adjust with [ and ] are which values are pushed and popped < 1311397455 226243 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. You cannot move, add, or remove, any [ and ] commands yourself. < 1311397491 78349 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the value of the registers after the [ will be precisely the same as after the matching ] < 1311397495 3065 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But changing other commands can change what values are saved with the [ and restored with ] < 1311397510 477101 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes that is correct. < 1311397517 757569 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can think of it as a kind of three branching instead of stack manipulation < 1311397523 313653 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tree < 1311397580 523924 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1311397622 584380 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :A [ B ] C becomes a tree with commands A at the root and two branches with B and C respectively < 1311397664 73266 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that would work, I think. < 1311397664 433307 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :where B and C might contain further branching < 1311397707 999296 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well also A, in which case [B] C belongs to A's last branch < 1311397747 305227 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1311397938 170676 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm if names have different lengths that also is a complication - it may be cheaper to save (and so reuse) a longer name < 1311397961 819214 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I have realized that, too, already. < 1311397986 457562 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't realize the tree stuff at first but now that you explain it makes sense and I agree) < 1311398073 640237 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still have a suspicion this _might_ be NP-complete < 1311398185 304840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is NP-complete < 1311398189 74575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything interesting, at least < 1311398205 939737 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1311398237 16845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: btw will you use @ i need committed users for funding < 1311398335 734168 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will use @ < 1311398408 56050 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i'll play around with it and maybe implement stuff if not use it regularly (it would be hard to use it regularly without stuff implemented) < 1311398423 472621 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with @lang < 1311398627 127699 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: stuff implemented but but it'll have a web browser, an irc client, and a posix layer WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM MEEEEEEE < 1311398732 301384 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You might be correct about NP-complete. < 1311398764 532906 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it depends on if it's usable for me (if not i'd like it to be usable for me) < 1311398769 733190 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :intentionally vague < 1311398771 440498 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :However it probably can still halt. < 1311398777 294452 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i do not know exactly what makes things usable for me < 1311398787 745467 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's going to be so homestuck you have no idea < 1311398789 237381 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : :( < 1311398839 88236 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you know if there are other channels that they can also help with these kind of algorithms? < 1311398870 73303 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well yes. one obviously could use the algorithm of iterating through all possibilities of =, + and - at each spot where the name isn't already in the register, and that would halt but probably be exponential. < 1311398953 347960 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only read the first 2 or 3 days of feather chat but i think i know enough now to say it's insane < 1311398962 86462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it's beautiful < 1311398966 797397 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why I would want to figure out if there is better things < 1311398967 34122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and amazing and perfect < 1311398968 634394 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1311398975 878367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: keep reading btw, you'll see ais gradually go completely insane < 1311398980 505538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the everyday sense < 1311399019 547221 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i'm not frequenting any optimization channels, alas. < 1311399033 588053 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the part where the guy skeptics all over feather and then likes php < 1311399050 146720 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is because i am a horrible person < 1311399077 120210 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you like to see movies where people fall into sewers and die, i take. < 1311399087 638076 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best < 1311399092 99463 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: btw whats the everyday sense of insane < 1311399109 20337 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :() < 1311399150 107596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: the sense that isn't used in the idiotic sense of "LOL WE'RE ALL CRAZY HERE BECAUSE WE AM LIKE ESOLANGS" < 1311399158 411751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION STARES AT OERJAN FOR NO REASON < 1311399166 823452 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1311399201 527006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : i like the part where the guy skeptics all over feather and then likes php < 1311399203 3265 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so the good sense < 1311399203 559479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god which day < 1311399209 276395 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh < 1311399299 790373 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/ < 1311399311 372202 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one where ais explains how feather has no primitives or syntax and RodgerTheGreat claims it impossible and ehird accuses him of hating most non-Java non-BASIC languages < 1311399364 233304 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no syntax either? oh dear. < 1311399425 336700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: rodgerthegreat is a bad person < 1311399432 854782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :true facts :{ < 1311399447 669426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :./combined:20:49:49: * tusho watches RodgerTheGreat come and say "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! JUST LIKE FEATHER!" < 1311399452 456744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not helpful grep... < 1311399463 444519 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:24:06: ehird: utterly untrue. I like BF, ///, LOGO, PHP, Postscript, LUA and some of my own languages, in addition to Java and BASIC < 1311399466 444025 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep for that < 1311399479 918296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:14:41: I love JS too :D < 1311399480 196439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DID I SAY THIS i must have been joking < 1311399487 47713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: im ehird btw < 1311399490 703613 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1311399491 938157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you knew that < 1311399495 880967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SORRY IF YOU THINK LESS OF ME < 1311399525 609850 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what year was this i think i was an idiot back then < 1311399558 770503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: two thousand and eight < 1311399576 796739 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was probably most certainly an idiot. i don't want to think about it. < 1311399580 470921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, something is reminding me to play nethack again. prolly ais talking about acehack < 1311399595 142654 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: DO YOU PLAY ANY ROGUELIKES i bet your taste in roguelikes is as bad as your taste in webcomics >:( < 1311399620 533708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you talked about roguelikes once < 1311399620 950034 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1311399622 760888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that cpressey < 1311399623 367269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1311399624 595106 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did? < 1311399632 879593 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i don't know of any roguelikes i like < 1311399650 926013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which did you plau < 1311399651 628044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1311399665 748900 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its complicated < 1311399672 599508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :youre avoiding answering because you have bad taste < 1311399676 184628 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311399695 431965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :google "monqy nethack" -> oh god results for crawl < 1311399698 565642 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont really play crawl anymore but i hang around in ##crawl < 1311399701 439786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FROM THIS YEAR < 1311399702 981256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1311399707 373050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant talk to you any mor < 1311399707 713036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1311399709 134025 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ##crawl-dev < 1311399712 43412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :die forever :{ < 1311399715 227072 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8) < 1311399723 243137 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actualyl dislike crawl < 1311399727 325161 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make you feel better < 1311399736 362489 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the results from that google highlighted this part of crawl learndb < 1311399736 779864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bhaak < 1311399736 977789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still believes that Nethack is the most popular roguelike. < 1311399736 977954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also believes that the earth is flat. < 1311399736 978055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happens to maintain a Nethack fork, UnNethack. If you're curious how a Nethack with some thoughts spent on balance could look like, give it a try: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/unnethack/ < 1311399737 705233 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is on the record as stating that he is not a shark. < 1311399739 821323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likes ke$ha < 1311399741 709818 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good isnults A+ < 1311399744 850458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: maybe a bit........... < 1311399761 118938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know ais has been like kicked from crawl-dev several times for "trolling" so i have to MILDLY DISLIKE YOU... < 1311399789 369092 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've been kicked once and muted once. does that help. < 1311399793 913167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : 17:24:06: ehird: utterly untrue. I like BF, ///, LOGO, PHP, Postscript, LUA and some of my own languages, in addition to Java and BASIC < 1311399796 873506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this must be from the day before < 1311399799 198115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, after < 1311399810 174515 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1311399811 627242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just grepped wrong < 1311399826 688632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yes ok. < 1311399826 886325 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any good roguleikkes < 1311399829 884526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: how anal are those guys even < 1311399834 763032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yes. vagrant < 1311399845 529246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so beautiful you have no idea. < 1311399848 719920 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :will check it out < 1311399862 943343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: good luck with that < 1311399867 766017 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: its mine its in python but it's GOLFED PYTHON < 1311399869 170713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like < 1311399871 930175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kilobyte big < 1311399874 949299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so amazing < 1311399878 905393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should work on that sometime < 1311399887 657125 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe make it use perlin noise instead of just... random() to generate the map < 1311399889 777048 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for those guys do you mean the players or the developers < 1311399899 800768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever ops crawl-dev < 1311399903 209406 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311399944 396864 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :varies between okay and insufferable?? i dunno < 1311400000 692559 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is vagrant i am bad at finding it < 1311400040 351990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it is not online :( < 1311400041 486674 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i addded ehird but google thought i meant third i will put quotes around it < 1311400043 784755 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :( < 1311400048 836531 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is < 1311400050 492707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly not. < 1311400060 227635 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i coerced cheater into pasting the latest version a while back after i lost it by pretending i liked him. < 1311400061 621892 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :felt dirty. < 1311400322 777093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:22:28: If the first thing a language does is define it's own syntax, the syntax for defining syntax IS THE SYNTAX. < 1311400328 107080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you should be so happy you weren't around when this guy was < 1311400333 681538 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im hapy < 1311400373 669353 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1311400409 33743 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually still talk to him fairly regularly. < 1311400418 546091 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how bad of a person < 1311400427 954805 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually, not *too* bad, actually. < 1311400432 7984 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually :D < 1311400435 19317 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's developed a strong fondness for Forth. < 1311400469 818433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't he like only four years older than me or something, i seem to recall him ranting at me for ages for being immature and blaming it all on my age once < 1311400494 537838 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's a bit older than that. < 1311400497 331239 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not much. < 1311400508 53644 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wanna say, uh, 22? < 1311400540 123623 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm pretty sure that https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fushigi_no_Dungeon is the most popular roguelike... < 1311400812 486492 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficult question is at what point does it become opcodes < 1311400832 647152 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1311400835 42490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, fizzie is gone for twelve hours. < 1311400869 216715 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the non-esoteric languages are usually used for bootstrapping right? < 1311400893 697942 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Very few languages actually bootstrap, TBH. < 1311400901 764922 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, language implementations. < 1311400904 199799 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like unix was used to bootstrap gnu if i understand correctly < 1311400960 510211 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't "really" understand bootstrapping though < 1311400963 911970 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly. < 1311400984 984108 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it a physical impossibility to bootstrap something? < 1311400995 172741 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather a systemic impossibility < 1311400997 554296 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1311401005 704959 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was this thing i read somewheer < 1311401015 353260 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To bootstrap something is to build something with itself. < 1311401022 656854 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :about how < 1311401025 32237 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no requirement that your initial build was bootstrapped. < 1311401046 389775 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind ^^; < 1311401054 985958 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1311401064 570224 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, you could bootstrap a C compiler written in C, using a C compiler not written in C. (I don't know if such a thing exists. :P) < 1311401068 322565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, fizzie, you am done confound me. < 1311401074 87054 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you could compile it *by hand*. < 1311401079 138333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: zeta c was written in lisp, I think < 1311401102 90371 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one meaning of bootstrap is to have a compiler for a language written in itself then right? < 1311401106 202776 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The WEB program is itself written in WEB, although if you have the file TANGLE.PAS then you can start from there and then you can modify TANGLE.WEB and compile (with or without modification) WEAVE.WEB too. < 1311401107 717585 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Yes. < 1311401119 280272 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there C compilers written in assembly languages? < 1311401126 928394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: probably < 1311401132 889014 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: None notable, at least. < 1311401166 333745 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpreter is probably a better word < 1311401185 587853 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah, you could also have the bootstrapping compiler run on an interpreter. < 1311401204 565097 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C interpreter written in assembly language would also work since the C compiler could then compile itself < 1311401213 551681 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's how GHC started off. < 1311401249 632222 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: basically every compiler written in its own language must have been bootstrapped at one point. < 1311401291 274395 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311401298 691824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Taneb < 1311401301 447917 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1311401307 703104 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly, bootstrapping compilers annoy me. I dislike circular dependencies. < 1311401310 253460 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there are several options for how that could happen: a compiler written in another language, an interpreter written in another language, or (probably the very first languages) by hand. < 1311401314 577157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: but but @ < 1311401325 687588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's not circular if it's portable < 1311401327 892798 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oro. < 1311401331 429691 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am very much confused < 1311401333 192140 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: For Linux package management. < 1311401344 878549 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahhaha < 1311401345 76411 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't GHC circular? < 1311401347 44820 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Namely, I dislike GCC having a build dependency on GCC. < 1311401351 558825 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yes. < 1311401358 7026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: a package manager that can't handle circular dependencies is broken < 1311401363 674983 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: for example erlang was originally interpreted in prolog (and still has a very similar syntax) < 1311401368 317304 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Build dependencies. < 1311401374 549827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: yep < 1311401388 322580 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the bootstrapped section just the minimum necessary to build the rest? < 1311401427 808832 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see now.. < 1311401435 160939 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is when you update a language < 1311401445 964277 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the updates to the language are coded in the language < 1311401448 111094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: you can't use a feature you just implemented in the compiler without bootstrapping < 1311401456 858944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1311401477 386906 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you begin in say, C/asm, for example.. < 1311401486 450516 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The only way to solve circular build dependencies is manual intervention so that the package depending on itself actually exists before you build it. Which is *really annoying*. < 1311401500 466010 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i guess it doesn't matter what you begin in < 1311401504 350751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: or it could install a binary first < 1311401507 844689 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :same shit really < 1311401535 444727 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yesss, that's manual intervention so that the package depending on itself actually exists before you build it. < 1311401540 362150 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is really annoying. < 1311401557 980788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: no, that's doing it in the package manager < 1311401567 605495 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still *really annoying*. < 1311401613 251915 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the fundamental idea though is about initially writing a minimal compiler/interpreter in say: C, C++, Lisp, Haskell, what-have-you.. and using that to compile/interpret a new version of your language < 1311401632 227150 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and using that to build your language < 1311401646 726764 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311401697 222036 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that it very much depends on many things. < 1311401723 264774 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, you wouldn't want to rely on an interpreter running underneath your language < 1311401747 977546 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed interpreters written in the language itself aren't useful for bootstrapping :P < 1311401771 482876 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there are still uses for those < 1311401796 584617 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can see that you could tell lisp to output asm code for an interpreter. < 1311401825 111179 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh... or something < 1311401826 416642 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp may have both an interpreter and a compiler for itself, where the interpreter is used for quick running and the compiler is used for optimizing < 1311401866 666687 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the same implementation < 1311401870 762846 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i mean.. suppose you wanted to implement a brainfuck interpreter. you wouldn't want to have the interpreter running on top of an interpreter. < 1311401872 333090 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, Lisp almost always has a self-interpreter. That's the "eval" part of REPL. :P < 1311401916 823892 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes you might < 1311401918 708003 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well it _might_ but it could also compile on the fly immediately, like ghc does < 1311401931 90597 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, true... < 1311401931 561251 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ghci < 1311401950 197996 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's still a slightly simpler compilation to bytecode < 1311402028 933213 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, i figure you only really want 1 layer of interpreters running most of the time < 1311402046 281673 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: it's ok to use an interpreter to run your initial compiler, though, since that's a one time thing < 1311402047 790311 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2 for cases wheer it doesn't matter < 1311402082 568223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sbcl compiles to native code always, fwiw < 1311402090 285090 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311402103 410047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :including in the repl < 1311402116 756626 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you wouldn't really want to load haskell, and then load brainfuck on top of it, and then supply a brainfuck interpreter's source to that < 1311402170 564467 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you would < 1311402171 905593 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1311402182 471600 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just not really moving things forward < 1311402198 204631 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: well for esolangs you might want to just because it can be done < 1311402208 139034 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, its not such a bad idea < 1311402208 689147 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see: my unlambda interpreter in unlambda) < 1311402229 833637 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just in the habit of attaching a value judgement to everything i say < 1311402420 569575 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise if you value efficiency you'd want to get a compiler pretty soon, or at least an interpreter that is itself compiled < 1311402495 241891 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :heavy.. < 1311405131 406667 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what's odd? < 1311405148 214686 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What my brother calls an awkward turtle is different to what I do < 1311405160 891904 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an awkward turtle < 1311405172 818520 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a personality type i think < 1311405179 42212 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a clumsy tortoise < 1311405179 839820 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a turtle goes into their shell < 1311405181 512701 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hand signal made during awkward silences < 1311405186 809387 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. lol < 1311405203 924070 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point of it is to change the subject to the awkward turtle < 1311405238 399900 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :those things feel artificial to me. subject changes to how artificial they feel. nobodys happy. < 1311405242 154813 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer to make things more awkward and then sink deper into depression < 1311405254 749044 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic itidus20 < 1311405305 63776 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1311405321 35016 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To quote David Morgan Mar, "If you find yourself in an awkward silence... Fill it! Say something! Anything! You will never have a better chance to make an awkward situation even more awkward!" < 1311405322 385478 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything seems to go wrong < 1311405383 411854 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :does he ever come here? < 1311405411 59741 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to my knowledge < 1311405416 66964 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think he does < 1311405421 778080 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :has he ever? :P < 1311405437 33822 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :same answers? < 1311405440 646088 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure he's seen the wiki < 1311405442 150847 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats fascinating < 1311405444 999728 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahahaha < 1311405483 779649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the bloglike section on Mezzacotta hasn't been updated for over a year < 1311405512 83331 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course he has scary time planning powers, so he probably wouldn't fit in something that useless < 1311405516 91691 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like.. which friggen esolang club does he hang with then? < 1311405528 430584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas Square Root of Minus Garfield has an update yesterday, so presumably that's still going < 1311405532 714975 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought this was the only one < 1311405539 806769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as does Lightning Made of Owls < 1311405550 704319 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: well afaik all his esolangs are old... < 1311405561 125326 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1311405579 152583 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the webcomics, bar Awkward Fumbles, are active < 1311405589 629224 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Infinity on 30 Credits a Day < 1311405604 79137 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually LMoO is skipping many updates nowadays < 1311405617 604885 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its funny how that works out < 1311405618 389457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1311405626 41782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that, it would astonish me if it came out daily < 1311405634 236930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still being updated when there are submisisons < 1311405635 951657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*submissions < 1311405747 794809 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and SRoMG shows no signs of abating < 1311405882 337070 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the mezzacotta comic is rather dead if you look at the hall of fame section, not enough votes. although just this week some started trickling through. < 1311405908 494148 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sqrt(-garfield) is brilliant. < 1311405963 471387 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1311405982 825717 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually read some of it before coming here < 1311406012 133065 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really tore apart the comic medium in fun ways < 1311406014 636618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1311406034 662089 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Also, it's producing something intelligent out of Garfield. < 1311406053 444764 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is quite a feat. < 1311406132 901681 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure if I approve of Scott McCloud though. HE should try his hand at esolang though < 1311406148 297229 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that Garfield is a comic written for one purpose: making money... < 1311406165 86945 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scott McCloud is the most likely person to publish a book about esolangs :D < 1311406173 136137 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has the mindset < 1311406181 163861 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :He just doesn't know it yet. < 1311406280 120652 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean Mr. McCloud will never be Jack Kirby or Akira Toriyama. < 1311406307 890149 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, as far as can see there is no evidence that DMM has ever edited our wiki. < 1311406311 618838 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i can < 1311406323 641406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im sobbing loudly < 1311406332 205967 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is he somewhat a celeb in esolang terms? < 1311406348 362490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: it's separate, he's an esolang designer /and/ a celebrity < 1311406351 209076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's a celeb in every term. well, apart from the one normal people use. < 1311406352 559032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not famous for esolang design < 1311406353 239287 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh < 1311406360 95945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he writes this webcomic :P < 1311406369 269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he writes a somewhat popular webcomic < 1311406377 473035 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Irregular Webcomic!" < 1311406383 998097 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has a heavy hand in several others < 1311406384 309271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Vorpal isn't appreciating this feature I coded into mcmap, probably because he's away; please tell me about how great it is < 1311406393 840226 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually discovered DMM when I started asking someone a question "theres not really any popular australian websites like google, yahoo etc" < 1311406397 381529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I, umm, don't know what it does and why it's useful < 1311406402 648563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you managed to do something nontrivial in Java < 1311406406 209595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's worth an accolade of itself < 1311406409 77309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: im lol < 1311406412 583133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: who said it was java??? < 1311406417 68962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good point < 1311406419 238852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mcmap is a proxy, it's pure retrostyle c99 < 1311406420 929387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed it was a Minecraft plugin < 1311406424 944216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nah, it's fizzie's project < 1311406426 456354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "retrostyle c99"? < 1311406428 384094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I also write some stuff for < 1311406428 891233 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i went on wiki and found DMM < 1311406437 162724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, fizzie thinks this is the nineties, and does things like use bitshifts instead of division < 1311406443 235490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and mark functions "inline" < 1311406444 437338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's adorable < 1311406445 490006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1311406452 17030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use bitshifts instead of division when it's clearer < 1311406473 929999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, if I'm dividing by a large power of 2, it's clearer to write x >> 20 than x / (1 << 20) < 1311406479 732151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or worse, x / 1048576 < 1311406504 595039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x >> 1 vs. x / 2, though, they're pretty much equal in terms of legibility < 1311406555 155503 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_websites "Irregular Webcomic!" < 1311406560 267481 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, but you're using bitshift when, logically, you are shifting bits. < 1311406565 733902 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found him by that means < 1311406569 582946 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which is only proper. < 1311406581 392098 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if the shift is zero-extend? < 1311406594 125434 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, and he tries to make things thread-safe by marking them volatile < 1311406606 370234 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *wince* < 1311406610 935461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: dont wnice its amazing < 1311406621 941586 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DMM is the most famous esoteric programming language inventor with a PhD in Astrophysics < 1311406629 130398 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the "make the compiler stupid" button. < 1311406629 465043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can respect a man who uses macros because he doesn't trust the compiler enough to optimise an inline function < 1311406642 225848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well it _is_ a mutex < 1311406655 997020 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :australia kicks ass < 1311406664 10915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that, umm, can actualy work sometimes < 1311406670 474789 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lived in Australia for 11 months < 1311406670 892202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(making things volatile to make them thread-safe) < 1311406672 4257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: hmm, the most popular australian website may be Whirlpool (it's the only one I can think of off the top of my head) < 1311406680 318670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm not sure /why/ it's famous, because it's all about Australian ISPs < 1311406680 851476 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything < 1311406682 614296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know it anyway < 1311406689 79137 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And in some cases, it just makes the compiler stupid. < 1311406692 479596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but expecting it to happen without knowing why is probably going to end in failure < 1311406694 255081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote australia kicks ass we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything < 1311406697 723995 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :541) australia kicks ass we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything < 1311406703 743267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I suspect the most popular Australian website is google.au < 1311406706 412630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but am not certain < 1311406709 784519 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends quite heavily on what you're doing. < 1311406710 527353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not really an _Australian_ website < 1311406712 665736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I meant most famous < 1311406736 942057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how many Australians are proud of kangaroos despite having never seen one < 1311406747 595278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION resists urge to say "Google's pretty famous" < 1311406764 472068 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly, there are some feral wallabees in Scotland < 1311406766 750360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they're fairly common in the Australian countryside, aren't they? and even citybound Australians probably see them in zoos < 1311406774 934186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even I've seen a kangaroo, in a zoo < 1311406796 572558 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen a kangaroo in a zoo... in AUSTRALIA < 1311406801 84707 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to travel far to see one.. you just have to leave the cities < 1311406813 121141 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that was a nice rhyme < 1311406818 701567 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're everywhere once you actually get away from suburbia < 1311406826 314105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: coincidental, and it doesn't scan properly < 1311406828 577394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kangaroo / in a zoo / there's pretty much no way this rhyme isn't going to end up talking about kangaroo poo, so I'm stopping it here < 1311406840 775968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means it's a good rhyme in a bad context to put a rhyme in < 1311406846 915466 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :everytime you go camping in melbourne you're bound to see one < 1311406877 15032 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1311406882 683087 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're everywhere < 1311406890 363753 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just they're not in suburbia < 1311406890 561720 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees a reasonable path to getting an Erdos-Bacon number of 65 < 1311406891 745973 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*6 < 1311406919 450161 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get out much.. but i have seen them in the wild several times < 1311406936 707606 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Do tell. < 1311406949 820800 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, s/Erdos/Erdős/ < 1311406954 825368 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :every encounter with a kangaroo tends to be memorable too < 1311406983 248947 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess they would get boring quickly enough < 1311407028 868848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: 65??? WOOOOOOOOOOW < 1311407053 934688 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect 65 might actually be _harder_ than 6 < 1311407089 743397 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: My father has a Bacon number of 3; there are multiple profs at UW with Erd(I don't know how to compose the accent with my keyboard layout)s numbers of 1 < 1311407111 353002 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, it's Compose = o < 1311407127 795109 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Although my father's Bacon number of 3 doesn't apply if you only count credited actors < 1311407132 77511 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :as he was an extra < 1311407138 530619 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: like in SML iirc < 1311407142 919271 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I haven't run the cast list of the film to see if he actually has a 2) < 1311407148 144506 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crediting doesn't typically matter for Erdős-Bacon. < 1311407160 54862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it Erdős * Bacon that you're using to do the calculation? or appending digits? < 1311407167 777928 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erdős + Bacon < 1311407172 207767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1311407177 178220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 65 is really quite difficult? < 1311407188 330593 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a time machine. < 1311407201 321024 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye, everyone < 1311407207 747440 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1311407209 52186 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, you can be enough generations removed to pull it off. < 1311407223 851042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know what my Erdős number is < 1311407240 194849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm pretty sure I have one, given that I've coauthored papers with people who have coauthored lots of papers < 1311407241 379194 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really would like for Bacon to appear in a film using stock footage of Erdős. < 1311407253 559658 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: to give the lowest possible value of 1? < 1311407261 422421 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1311407262 152729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be funnier if they coauthored a paper < 1311407270 506562 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: grep https://files.oakland.edu/users/grossman/enp/Erdos2.html < 1311407273 495783 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well i assume you'd have to get a long chain of people to cooperate with each other to get it that high < 1311407285 213558 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Or time. < 1311407290 665353 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311407295 671841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* pikhq_ really would like for Bacon to appear in a film using stock footage of Erdős. < 1311407299 765269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think something like that actually happened < 1311407321 262795 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was just someone with a Bacon number doing that, though. < 1311407321 460519 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: Vorpal isn't appreciating this feature I coded into mcmap, probably because he's away; please tell me about how great it is <-- what feature? < 1311407327 426960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, or not < 1311407332 214583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: see -minecraft < 1311407341 540649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just after you joined < 1311407342 719568 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1311407346 675720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's currently broken btw :P < 1311407350 421984 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i didn't commit the broken < 1311407351 263107 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erdős has an Erdős-Bacon number of 3. < 1311407351 540940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not broken < 1311407380 389179 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh wait you filter URLs < 1311407391 470081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no he doesn't < 1311407395 172575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not any more < 1311407401 158994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I delink them < 1311407407 356273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can still see what they say < 1311407409 28581 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is the lowest known Erdős-Bacon number, though a few people have that. < 1311407410 615315 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What counts as a "paper" for Erdos number? < 1311407423 409836 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :an academic paper < 1311407427 404118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did a simple proof with ais523. Does this mean I might have a .. blah < 1311407431 504831 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The *stock* definition is an academic, published paper. < 1311407451 947655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, my Erdős number is at least 4, it seems < 1311407455 702868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no. < 1311407479 361857 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: clearly we should collaborate and I should get a research term with one of the two profs at UW I know of with 1 < 1311407484 764801 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will give you a firm 3 < 1311407488 768618 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I will sleep soon. Tell me now or later, if you have more ideas about my optimization problem or any other IRC channels you know that they could discuss these things. < 1311407501 73874 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Quit: > < 1311407517 762343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, clearly, we should write a paper >.> < 1311407523 150428 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually have an eye on one in particular since he both works in an area I'm interested in and taught me last term) < 1311407523 348084 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry, it's any research collaboration resulting in a published work. < 1311407531 613370 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1311407540 662335 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A collaborative, unique proof would probably count. < 1311407543 702740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, does that mean that elliott has an Erdős number because I mentioned what I was doing to him? < 1311407546 903433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: :D < 1311407548 660888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he replied? < 1311407554 1235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: everyone you have EVER LOOKED AT has an erdos number now < 1311407561 380107 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is our GoE proof unique? < 1311407578 312605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't know what you're referring to < 1311407584 538904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I mean, my coding style is slightly influenced by elliott < 1311407590 522878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from being exposed to his programs < 1311407598 65556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I did a lot of programming towards one of the papers < 1311407615 433489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm still trying to figure out why I switched from Allman-style braces to K&R-style, though) < 1311407619 794855 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that thing about any sufficiently small pattern in a bounded Game of Life universe being a result of some Garden of Eden < 1311407626 662020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for when I'm not trolling with EOL braces) < 1311407634 744135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it probably isn't new < 1311407640 751145 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, darn < 1311407641 488498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone else has probably wondered that at some point < 1311407651 148430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, I mean, my coding style is slightly influenced by elliott < 1311407652 62185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1311407655 420683 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this just in a butterfly effect sense < 1311407672 881135 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what is the result, precisely? < 1311407679 956607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, I've had style arguments with you, and they help to sharpen my opinions of my own position < 1311407689 741716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I've started using K&R/OTBS style for no obvious reason at all < 1311407702 44853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mcmap puts { on the line after branch constructs and it makes me unhappy < 1311407708 798445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*OTB style < 1311407719 426284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I used to do that, because the books I learned C from did < 1311407741 996177 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really dislike {-on-its-own-line < 1311407742 943420 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, every sufficiently small (5 width and height smaller than the universe) pattern in a bounded Game of Life universe has at least one Garden of Eden that results in it. < 1311407747 354785 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1311407753 409534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: do you really dislike }-on-its-own-line? < 1311407760 155957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTBS is like Perl, it's inconsistent in the name of looking nice < 1311407761 128494 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I do < 1311407766 901770 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not) < 1311407783 424932 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: interesting. What's the proof? < 1311407789 698224 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also bounded -> toroidal? < 1311407812 555201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, another plausible indentation style is { lined up with if(x), on the same line as the line after, and } at the end of the line, next to the margin (i.e. column 78) < 1311407821 919847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why nobody uses it? < 1311407830 741267 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ewwww < 1311407837 998845 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes, although it works with other topologies. And probably also with always-off beyond a point, but not sure, and ais523 wasn't paying attention. < 1311407850 692967 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, let's see if I can remember it offhand. It's somewhere in logs < 1311407853 978221 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "yes" is not a proof :P < 1311407872 894695 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes was to bounded -> toroidal < 1311407884 512248 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1311407896 265025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: now I'm trying to think of something that's proved by infinitely many copies of the letter 'y' < 1311407898 659812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ais523, here's a screenshot you won't understand: http://i.imgur.com/Oygim.png < 1311407898 857683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't < 1311407908 408906 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that there is no coding-style applicator editor that i have heard of < 1311407908 857284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could make a decent counterexample to various banal and pointless statemetns < 1311407919 663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : coppro: now I'm trying to think of something that's proved by infinitely many copies of the letter 'y' < 1311407925 197801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there exists an infinite stream of 'y's" < 1311407931 481223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(constructive-style proof) < 1311407933 94788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: something vaguely interesting < 1311407938 242665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: you mean a reformatting editor? < 1311407947 177807 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The only thing I dislike more than putting opening braces on their own line is putting them on their own line AND indenting them halfway < 1311407949 176923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that there exists infinite anything would be considered interesting to some people < 1311407951 363180 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see ultrafinitists :P) < 1311407951 875049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: several programs, like Emacs and Kate, will shuffle lines left and right to comply with a coding style you give them < 1311407960 447927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetBeans, at least, will completely re-pretty-print your program if you tell it to < 1311407967 873308 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vim < 1311407985 230398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: perhaps you should give ultrafinitists a copy of yes < 1311407989 404879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and watch their minds explode < 1311407989 785377 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: I can independantly discover any feature given enough time < 1311407998 245429 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, in a bounded universe, every pattern is either a oscillator or a precursor to one. < 1311408018 387441 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(counting things like empty universe as an oscillator) < 1311408033 586108 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311408034 281851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I assume it's Minecraft-related; the first thing that came into mind when I saw it was that it was a Dwarf Fortress map dump < 1311408042 167115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Minecraft map dumps are likely to look similar < 1311408045 389020 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no infinite growth patterns. Eventually, you're going to start repeating. < 1311408047 474432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as people do similar things to the map in those games < 1311408055 923907 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Right. I know that result < 1311408074 652686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y < 1311408076 70247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y < 1311408077 758455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y y < 1311408098 634130 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: I assume it's Minecraft-related; the first thing that came into mind when I saw it was that it was a Dwarf Fortress map dump < 1311408104 904222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really a dump, more a live view < 1311408134 500986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: perhaps you should give ultrafinitists a copy of yes < 1311408134 698546 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : and watch their minds explode < 1311408145 193873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they'd, unfortunately correctly, probably argue that it was still bound by C's restrictions < 1311408148 659940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, if they were IN THE KNOW < 1311408153 939272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they know the OS is written in C < 1311408155 239180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes doesn't count its iterations, does it? < 1311408160 862875 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you take a pattern that's just a precursor, and work "backwards" (for all possibilities of backwards), you can't end up with the same pattern again, otherwise, it wouldn't be a precursor < 1311408173 296035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, but the OS has to print it out < 1311408177 292075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and depending on what you're outputting, the OS doesn't have to either < 1311408182 81399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*outputting to < 1311408186 38785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you're outputting to a parallel printer < 1311408186 664571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, but the hardware will still degrade :P < 1311408192 276730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's going to run out of paper eventually, I suppose < 1311408198 95059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the ys will still be there conceptually < 1311408199 6462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You could print to screen and wipe anything that trails off < 1311408201 91660 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't go "backwards" infinitely, it has to stop sometime before 2^area < 1311408236 517923 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How come Junethack has muted goals in AceHack? Isn't AceHack basically vanilla for the purposes of gameplay? < 1311408249 139466 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So every precursor has a Garden of Eden that results in it. < 1311408255 325421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's because I didn't want to break save compatibility to add a patch that was implemented really badly < 1311408261 140462 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: right < 1311408263 948977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I restricted myself to stuff that the game tracked already < 1311408268 324781 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently (according to the source of translations of the tipitaka) buddha said that the first being in a realm(not sure if i have this right) assumes himself to be god < 1311408270 91412 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah < 1311408280 50235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :planning to play in junethack, btw? < 1311408289 833764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are muted goals? < 1311408295 776194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm still astounded that Slashdot accepted the story) < 1311408300 127851 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, for every pattern of a certain size or smaller, you can trivially make a precursor by putting a single live cell outside of causal contact with the pattern. Therefore, the pattern has a precursor, and therefore, there's a Garden of Eden that results in it. < 1311408302 820155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they're not really muted, just slightly different than the other variants < 1311408318 947435 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: muted meaning less difficult < 1311408330 6827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, the submitter of the slashdot submission is the one with that insulting crawl infodb entry < 1311408337 673176 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did I forget anything/make any mistakes? < 1311408338 507429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well insulting-ish :P < 1311408340 40584 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of that in particular because "beat sokoban" is replaced with "consult the oracle" < 1311408347 840540 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the others are close to isomorphic < 1311408351 73347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(long story involving monqy as to why I know/recall this so recently) < 1311408351 271367 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or be too long-winded for something simple? < 1311408362 759342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I wasn't playing attention < 1311408367 930601 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the luckstone from mine's end isn't < 1311408369 793650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: bhaak is the developer of UnNetHack < 1311408374 382894 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's replaced with getting into the quest < 1311408378 406782 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ping < 1311408380 192743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bhaak < 1311408380 471273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still believes that Nethack is the most popular roguelike. < 1311408380 669034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also believes that the earth is flat. < 1311408380 669131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happens to maintain a Nethack fork, UnNethack. If you're curious how a Nethack with some thoughts spent on balance could look like, give it a try: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/unnethack/ < 1311408380 669174 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is on the record as stating that he is not a shark. < 1311408381 751084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likes ke$ha" < 1311408390 501883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly the person with the most (although not the largest volume) of AceHack patches but me < 1311408399 6260 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: makes sense < 1311408407 672475 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodplayers < 1311408407 870888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 wins. Add yourself to the list with !nick goodplayers yourname. Don't be a monqy and delete the list. < 1311408407 871112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The number of wins required to be a goodplayer increases over time. It is defined to be one more win than monqy currently has, except when it gets fixed at nice numbers like 10 or 27 for a while. < 1311408415 526022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy needs to extricate himself from this learndb < 1311408443 976885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitpic.com/monqy <-- google search result for monqy, COINCIDENC???? < 1311408452 529358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a picture of a twit? < 1311408483 764748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'd be very surprised if Crawl were more popular than NetHack < 1311408489 594646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Crawl's playerbase, I expect to be easier to count < 1311408492 626917 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wouldn't, at all < 1311408492 905572 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Now, for the killer question: can you work out whether this applies in the totally general case? < 1311408502 89749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetHack's a part of UNIX culture, Crawl isn't < 1311408509 541432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Nobody on Windows plays NetHack, lots of people on Windows play Crawl (tiles, universally) < 1311408516 876305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes I know not "nobody" etc. etc. etc.) < 1311408522 553880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: most of the YouTube results for NetHack are played on Windows < 1311408524 256802 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, general as in generalizes to other rules, or to infinite sized universes? < 1311408525 369799 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Fushigi no Dungeon. < 1311408530 139552 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also see sheer volume of DCSS on http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes, although I realise the sample might be biased < 1311408533 735631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bad logic < 1311408538 366703 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: To all finite patterns < 1311408538 564815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed < 1311408539 71671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X=>Y =/= Y=>X < 1311408550 87938 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a series of Japanese console rogue-likes) < 1311408551 910351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be very surprised if NetHack had more active players than DCSS < 1311408554 136652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still relevant, you just have to plug the numbers into Bayes' Theorem < 1311408560 339399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: you don't have to tell me what the Mystery Dungeon series is < 1311408564 515420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too lazy to be a Bayesian < 1311408568 577402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the games in it are released in the UK too < 1311408573 820098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"monqy < 1311408574 17739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :killed good players, is a horrible person" < 1311408574 215339 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not everyone would know. < 1311408576 586243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1311408599 794990 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, good question, I'd like to try, but I have no reason to believe I can. I am currently mentally playing with more GoE stuff though < 1311408621 543975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually quite a fan of Pokémon Mystery Dungeon; its bonus levels (Zero Island) have a balance unlike anything I've seen in any other roguelike, and are sufficiently fun that I'm considering writing my own roguelike based on similar principles < 1311408637 130939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like what I think Crawl ought to be like, rather than what it actually is like < 1311408639 44925 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: interesting; your recommendation might make me pick one up < 1311408660 587113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: be careful; the first 85% or so of Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is insultingly easy, and you have to play through it before you reach the fun part < 1311408671 822966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people have given up before they reach it < 1311408676 444354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :squarelos totally looks like spanish ors omething < 1311408695 44994 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is going to reply to this with an opinion on squarelos < 1311408708 636111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nah, I'm not good enough at Crawl to have a serious opinion on it < 1311408719 608285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently, the developers mostly dislike it, and the top players mostly like it < 1311408735 206851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably the wider playerbase mostly dislikes it because it looks worse than circlelos, but I'm not sure < 1311408741 657366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: monqy seems to be behind it < 1311408765 190215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly, we need to inundate him with these mixed opinions < 1311408793 176398 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was planning to go for the discount bin anyways < 1311408934 78445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: completely unscientific comparison based on seeing a link to an SA forums thread in the crawl learndb: Crawl's thread has amassed 141 pages in three months; I can't even /find/ a thread for NetHack, but Minecraft's has attained 574 in six months < 1311408952 165637 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's fair to say that Crawl is the most popular roguelike THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK IS A ROGUELIKE WHEN THEY'RE PLAYING IT OK OK PIKHQ < 1311409056 114621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now back to mcmap < 1311409085 502251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another completely unscientific comparison: NetHack's been slashdotted more often than Crawl < 1311409144 689026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, /come on/ < 1311409151 116963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about seven hundred times more biased than mine < 1311409194 459439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the SA thread for Crawl was, for ages, the main forum to discuss the game < 1311409199 888114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it's mentioned there < 1311409204 415295 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a? < 1311409207 959587 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sa? < 1311409212 605040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: something awful < 1311409222 412879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they moved away to the Tavern because they didn't like a pay site having most of the discussion about the game < 1311409224 249573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the largest forums on the internet, with some site that nobody reads attached to it < 1311409241 194755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the largest paid forum, I wonder? < 1311409241 889557 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it is indeed something awful < 1311409253 868947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like many of the 4chan boards are presumably larger, but you don't have to pay to post there < 1311409255 226527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: according to http://www.big-boards.com/, no; offtopic.com is larger < 1311409269 546170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what an original joke < 1311409269 744133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I'm not surprised there are forum rankings < 1311409278 397815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you only mentioned one other forum, so I'm guessing that they're second < 1311409283 959161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: unfortunately, that ranking omits the largest forum on the internet because it doesn't have the data they want < 1311409290 627343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, they're just the only one I remember being pay-for < 1311409292 336637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1311409294 484434 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I checked the biggest ones out a while back for some reason < 1311409302 787678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the largest forum on the internet is 2channel, by a large margin) < 1311409308 477750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that makes sense < 1311409310 418762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but they don't have e.g. membership information as they don't have members) < 1311409320 795336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait "Registration Optional, USD33.00/year" < 1311409322 573658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they do :-P < 1311409341 96064 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :does a paid forum end up being better? < 1311409385 405432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: depends on what you mean by "better" < 1311409397 925510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's going to discourage a huge number of potential posters, and probably many readers too < 1311409410 359346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not necessarily going to be a bad thing < 1311409433 198716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has ended up coding mcmap in gedit, I wonder why? < 1311409441 16672 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a weird idea < 1311409452 785551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I know why, it's because vi displays tabs as spaces, so I can't copy and paste properly with my terminal, and because emacs just feels wrong here < 1311409452 983499 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2012-12-22 My goodness that is wonderful. < 1311409472 111155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: SA seems to do well enough with those: < 1311409472 806005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :5,187 Users Logged In < 1311409473 84759 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :3,550 registered users logged in. < 1311409473 282295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :155,024 users total. < 1311409481 840913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OK, it's probably one of the only successful for-pay forums.) < 1311409485 728071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if you're a paid forum, being big is definitely to your advantage < 1311409493 943646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like if you're a social network, being big is definitely to your advantage < 1311409494 974204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious statements woo :P < 1311409504 692064 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: what is so special about that date? < 1311409515 678136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you can figure that one ou < 1311409515 955883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1311409520 263140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: haha, that must have been specialcased < 1311409521 902575 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Day after the Mayan calendar ends. < 1311409526 202037 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Undoubtedly. < 1311409527 732039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not < 1311409529 612968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2012-12-20 is the same < 1311409540 874108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=2012-11-01 < 1311409544 100357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're doing something wrong < 1311409547 318105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, duh < 1311409548 209221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, those comics haven't been written yet < 1311409549 784357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't see future comics < 1311409559 285570 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaah, it only peeks into the past. < 1311409568 534028 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know the date < 1311409574 461271 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :just nothing seemed special about that site at that date < 1311409584 766288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, that the comic didn't exist < 1311409592 453601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :on account of the universe not existing, just like mezzacotta extends back to the beginning of time < 1311409601 327121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only amusing if you know what mezzacotta is < 1311409640 577891 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not < 1311409660 616096 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-assemblies-of-god-holy-bible-god/1030075545?ean=2940012671967&itm=2&usri=assembly%2bof%2bgod oh, this pattern of "helpful" votes isn't suspicious < 1311409681 344277 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It is a webcomic which has an update for every day. < 1311409686 788875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the largest archives of any webcomic ever < 1311409705 150097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, MSPA will surpass it in a few years, I'm sure < 1311409715 122415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it was going as a newspaper comic before it first came online, and as a pamphlet comic before that, and as a stone carving comic before that < 1311409730 219119 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as a plsama painting comic before that < 1311409731 53016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :plasma < 1311409735 615402 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, every day on the proleptic Gregorian calendar. < 1311409774 629938 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then some. < 1311409777 871337 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I GUESS MY JOKE TRULY WAS THAT BAD < 1311409788 944360 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-9999999999999-01-01 Here's the earliest comic. < 1311409789 778786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: DMM could tell that the Gregorian calendar was going to be introduced millions of years before it was, so he worked on that assumption < 1311409798 631919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my fingers tried to tab-complete Gregorian, and it half-worked < 1311409806 48585 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1311409810 150030 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1311409819 672833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "I think this comic is going downhill." must have been special-cased as the first line < 1311409855 326737 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you should read all of them. < 1311409857 853839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it could just be chance < 1311409876 227565 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a comic worth archive-binging. < 1311409885 138327 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially since you'll need to invent immortality to do so. < 1311409895 780894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but /come on/ :P < 1311409896 622251 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ais523, or, perhaps the function determining the comic was designed with that result in mind < 1311409897 413239 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not necessarily immortality. < 1311409906 32190 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just being highly prolonged. < 1311409936 494198 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh.. is mezzacotta a procedural comic? < 1311409943 244740 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1311409947 97840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: no, it is hand-written by the comic irregulars < 1311409948 484946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: fuck you < 1311409951 418689 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that or DMM is amazing. < 1311409959 893686 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS NOT JUST DMM DO NOT DISCOUNT THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF OTHERS < 1311409975 304927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :today's mezzacotta is funny < 1311409991 934514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the first and second panels should be swapped < 1311410031 952578 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311410037 17868 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The rod of alertness is planted (set) to prevent each instance of a beetle." < 1311410057 966491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really wants to play frictionless tennis now < 1311410179 757345 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311410234 194161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the D&D markov chain person strikes again? < 1311410241 385926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1311410273 514614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: one of the mezzacotta people just does markov chains of the d20 SRD (basically, D&D minus trademarks) < 1311410290 840639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and itidus20's quote sounds like it was generated like that < 1311410320 808572 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a tetris dude < 1311410324 280542 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :goes by holdnext < 1311410327 413119 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh < 1311410335 519330 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i swear to god every post he makes sounds like a markov chain text generator < 1311410338 458582 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so theres actually characters < 1311410338 815971 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently he's a real person < 1311410362 668750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um fizzie < 1311410367 89319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Uint32 v = *b; < 1311410367 287389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (v < 64) < 1311410367 287579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : rgba = RGBA_OPAQUE(4*v, 4*v, 0); < 1311410367 287688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1311410367 287795 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : rgba = RGBA_OPAQUE(255, 255-4*(v-64), 0); < 1311410369 554014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b is the array of blocks < 1311410374 264773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you want to use y, not v?... < 1311410397 463897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wiat no < 1311410400 623251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :b is different for that < 1311410401 40359 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1311410621 565875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1311410621 845147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : int lv_block = c->light_blocks[bx*(CHUNK_ZSIZE*CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + bz*(CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + ly/2]; < 1311410622 42910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : int lv_day = c->light_sky[bx*(CHUNK_ZSIZE*CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + bz*(CHUNK_YSIZE/2) + ly/2]; < 1311410622 43089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (ly & 1) < 1311410622 43196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lv_block >>= 4, lv_day >>= 4; < 1311410622 401138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1311410622 629445 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Not being one-to-one is not considered sufficient of a function for it to be called one-way (see Theoretical Definition, below)."? < 1311410624 576256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : lv_block &= 0xf, lv_day &= 0xf; < 1311410624 773866 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1311410626 407125 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical mcmap code < 1311410644 593849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, stupid italics indentation < 1311410650 66030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my client interprets tab as "toggle italics") < 1311410663 128060 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yes, those are different concepts. < 1311410690 766268 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :one-to-one == injective (probably what you want for GOL stuff) < 1311410700 380111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say the bitshifts/bitmasks are correct there, as it looks like it's trying to unpack a format that packs multiple 4-bit chunks into an octet < 1311410703 120077 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm on this page for different reasons < 1311410704 451999 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :one-way = cryptographical < 1311410706 460967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mathematical behaviour is irrelevant < 1311410729 979777 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and I'm kind of just wondering about hashes not necessarily being one-way < 1311410760 777836 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: well no one has proved that one-way functions definitely _exist_ < 1311410782 905242 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(requires P != NP) < 1311410793 127694 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go to sleep now < 1311410840 995037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: does not require P != NP; if checking is O(n^2) and breaking is O(n^999), it's going to be safe for all practical purposes with high enough n < 1311410859 285921 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well depends on your precise definition then < 1311410880 638906 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :P != NP iff P != 0 and N != 1 < 1311410888 396593 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1311410895 324663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been made before < 1311410921 837430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what if P = +Inf, N = 2? < 1311410924 376886 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :+Inf is not a number < 1311410936 67371 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's NaN < 1311410943 409969 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1/0) == (0/0) < 1311410944 424987 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1311410947 802577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: +Inf * 2 = +Inf < 1311410954 992648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1/0) * 2 < 1311410955 967841 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Infinity < 1311410968 652682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a joke < 1311410977 554647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I would just like you to know that I edit mcmap with four-wide tabs < 1311410977 752967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1311410980 700690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in response to coppro < 1311410989 411421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : YOU ARE LIVING A LIE < 1311411014 53016 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who doesn't use four-wide tabs for stuff? < 1311411019 303975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why not edit it with half-width spaces too? < 1311411026 171765 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: FREAKS < 1311411028 352971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: SOOO ANGRYYYYYYYYY < 1311411033 49353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: oh god don't < 1311411037 809341 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not me, so he'll actually respond < 1311411041 40056 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we'll be here for hours < 1311411088 820988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually posted that Linux coding style guide quote to someone in a different channel earlier < 1311411095 756144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we were about to get into a tabs vs. spaces vs. tabs=8 war < 1311411099 935036 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to go to sleep < 1311411106 526185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it killed the conversation, obviously they were unable to argue with ti < 1311411107 718787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : when we were about to get into a tabs vs. spaces vs. tabs=8 war < 1311411108 75451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1311411109 955002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh ais523 < 1311411118 784234 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you implicitly acknowledged that there MAY exist tabs that are not equal to eight psaces there < 1311411125 134482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :better be careful!!!! < 1311411139 979566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, I acknowledge that some people use tabs for purposes that most programs are incapable of reading < 1311411146 635465 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, I meant "4 spaces for each indent level" when someone said tabs < 1311411151 686213 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hides < 1311411160 374641 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only programs I can think of where tab width is variable, are some programming editors, and word processors < 1311411163 871017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything else uses tab=8 < 1311411170 838287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, QBasic uses tab=14, but it's insane) < 1311411171 36495 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my Python is showing < 1311411173 598708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hehehehhehehe WOW LOOKS LIKE I'M NOT GETTING INTO THIS AGAIN WITH YOU how strange < 1311411177 90182 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that sounsd wrong < 1311411339 924782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, ahtewa's using ä in Eodermdrome programs < 1311411341 837736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cheating! < 1311411348 999573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I suppose I didn't specify the alphabet < 1311411355 904853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it does make it more pronounceable < 1311411416 216545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 TOPIC #esoteric :Tarn was pleased. “The hippos like the sewers!” he said. He took a celebratory swig of Dr. Pepper, and rocked back and forth. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1311411427 557686 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly we need to get someone vietnamese to write the eodermdrome C interpreter < 1311411435 639910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all I added was a comma; it's correct either way but means something slightly different now) < 1311411526 568029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it looks to mean the exact same thing to me < 1311411529 824527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I know the context < 1311411541 259655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how has the meaning changed? < 1311411554 170259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think with the comma it implies that the swig of Dr. Pepper and the rocking happen one after the other < 1311411559 692718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without, it leaves it ambiguous as to whether they overlap < 1311411563 680192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311411565 493152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH THE MEANING-CHANGE < 1311411573 107278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said "slightly different" < 1311411615 264880 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightldyifferent < 1311411630 387104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the source of that is an amusing read, by the way < 1311411647 474040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's an NY Times article that purports to be about Dwarf Fortress, but is mostly a list of all the ways in which the NY Times writer thinks Tarn is weird < 1311411671 622459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I, err, looked at that article < 1311411684 449479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was paywalled < 1311411697 843313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that paywall is bypassable with a single line of JS, IIRC < 1311411701 66872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally just an overlay < 1311411728 623295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my case, it wouldn't scroll, and I assume the article was longer than a screenful < 1311411736 387492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possibly because I declined cookies and didn't use JS < 1311411783 969377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umm, you can disable scrolling, I think < 1311411785 155677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fair enough < 1311411796 199042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could see the article greyed-out with the one I'm talking about < 1311411800 229837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't < 1311411872 813859 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1311411898 855707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you know how to check whether the window is focused in SDL? < 1311411905 112345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I have to handle the event... < 1311411915 681757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't, I've hardly used SDL < 1311411923 747184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even remember if DNA Maze is written in it or not < 1311411934 131937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I straight-ported it to something, but can't remember if it was SDL, although it seems plausible < 1311411968 589527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is :P < 1311411992 59779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :straight ports generally don't require much thought < 1311412006 918270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sufficiently so, that you can forget what libraries you're working with < 1311412036 981145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've learned very little SDL working on mcmap, although I've mostly left the actual map parts alone until now < 1311412113 119630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311412742 654600 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok so an idea came to me. < 1311412786 323987 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :The degree to which a randomly generated world is enjoyable is probably correlated to the amount of cooperative multiplayer conducted within that world < 1311412822 82260 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, always looking for a human meaning < 1311412828 235263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a great many people enjoy single-player minecraft but don't enjoy it online < 1311412836 323797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :even cooperatively < 1311412852 863271 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but minecraft at least has NPCs I guess thats the diffeernce < 1311412865 486712 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you don't need humans < 1311412870 709800 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe NPCs are enough < 1311412906 78661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of people play in peaceful, and then there are no NPCs inside any real structure < 1311412914 447252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sheep and pigs are generally more of an ignored annoyance outside < 1311412918 860890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cows too < 1311412922 542776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :chickens are too tiny to notice < 1311412972 749155 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so.. perhaps it is relative to how busy the persons social life is < 1311412990 320732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the more social the more enjoyable? < 1311412999 911851 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. i mean.. < 1311413002 355323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anything it's the opposite, although I doubt even that; plenty of MC players seem to be sociable < 1311413076 846220 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont have much of a social life .. so gradually I don't enjoy being too alone < 1311413106 871257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with the size and speed a lot of builds are constructed, I doubt a lot of the big ones involved too much social interaction during the build period... < 1311413174 490254 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean.. I'm indoors at home all day every day. At first it seemed like the perfect chance to be alone with computers and books. But gradually I found dependance on chatrooms etc < 1311413314 723771 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking for human meaning? mc's randomly generated worlds are way better than those constructed by hand for more expensive games, exactly because they don't look like they've been drawn by a human < 1311413373 681381 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i was thinking about this while reading mezzacotta < 1311413381 115365 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well that explains it then < 1311413426 10080 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should not share ideas before they are properly cooked < 1311413444 408841 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311413464 824389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so ais should never have talked about feather? :p < 1311413545 239249 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Well, with the size and speed a lot of builds are constructed, I doubt a lot of the big ones involved too much social interaction during the build period..." <<< doing stuff together is just a more primitive form of social interaction < 1311413607 304389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i referred to solo builds < 1311413620 923217 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1311413636 225839 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :years ago playing final fantasy 3/6 on a SNES I started to imagine "This is great. It's a shame the NPC is 'stuck' to a set of scripted events." not in those exact words < 1311413643 466116 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you meant they were multiplayer builds but so big and quickly done that the players must've just been building like crazy < 1311413708 994899 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, scripted events... is there a worse < 1311413778 126243 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as I get older, I start to realize you can't replace the storyteller with a computer. < 1311413794 490032 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes the story is well-written < 1311413802 906921 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well read a fucking book < 1311413818 62132 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point of games is you can be creative < 1311413828 876097 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the game does a good job of expanding the story in the game < 1311413834 330971 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1311413836 961431 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never does < 1311413838 310266 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1311413841 429741 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1311413842 946181 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never does < 1311413847 766109 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to disagree < 1311413851 577673 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i have to agre < 1311413852 147875 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1311413855 46504 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :...with myself < 1311413856 126262 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :k then < 1311413863 927955 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311413865 597813 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :k indeed < 1311413869 843876 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously this disagremeent can be settled in only one fashion < 1311413874 231451 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1311413875 530556 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that < 1311413881 6739 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fight to elliott's death < 1311413902 149737 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro> I have to disagree (with oklopol) well i have to agree (with oklopol) < 1311413919 606639 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott has the Magic Spirit of Rightness in him < 1311413932 929941 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the person who kills him and takes the Magic Spirit of Rightness will, thereafter, be right < 1311413968 898988 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i say oklopol is right because i like him more < 1311413972 478389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue resolved < 1311413978 204958 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" and the game does a good job of expanding the story in the game" <<< afaik, in every game the story can only be expanded locally, or you can explore a few main branches. to me it just feels like they couldn't come up with a long enough story so they added some parts where i have to press x repeatedly. < 1311414023 797654 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :with slightly (very slightly) varying values of pressing x < 1311414043 889256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like pixelcomic is over < 1311414052 463182 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you mocking me? < 1311414068 551500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1311414070 780146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"THE FACT THAT IT IS NAMED HURRICANE PIXEL IS WHAT MAKES IT INTERESTING < 1311414070 990799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMAGINE A WEATHERMAN IN REALITY TALKING ABOUT "HURRICANE HUMAN" < 1311414071 188761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO WARRANT SUCH A NAME THIS HURRICANE WOULD HAVE TO BE CAPABLE OF DESTROYING THE EARTH < 1311414071 188928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WHICH WOULD HAVE A DELICIOUSLY IRONIC VALUE IN NAMING IT "HUMAN" MWAHAHA AHEM)" < 1311414075 541145 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure < 1311414078 596245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the annotations of this were ten times better than the comics itself < 1311414079 939004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes < 1311414091 485236 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that would've been a rather subtle form of mocking < 1311414105 447205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...:| synchronicity < 1311414107 41922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pixelcomic.net/016.shtml < 1311414110 874409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ARE YOU MOCKING ME OR SOMETHING" < 1311414139 317566 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIXELCOMIC UPDaTeD? < 1311414142 980044 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn shift key < 1311414156 973 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pixelcomic updAtEd < 1311414158 221761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: nope < 1311414162 237808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its index page is now a list of all strips < 1311414165 720135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which implies overness to me < 1311414234 52210 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311414291 124629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM NOT ALONE WHEN I SAY THAT < 1311414291 403329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ALWAYS FOUND IT ODD HOW LOIS LANE WAS RENDERED INCAPABLE OF RECOGNIZING SUPERMAN < 1311414291 601454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIMPLY FROM A PAIR OF GLASSES < 1311414291 601664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WONDER IF ANYONE HAS EVER BEEN INSPIRED TO ROB A BANK WEARING GLASSES < 1311414291 601775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND THEN SUCCESSFULLY ESCAPE BY THROWING AWAY THE GLASSES AND WALKING CASUALLY < 1311414311 627401 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pixelcomic.net/020.shtml < 1311414314 956109 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are awesome < 1311414371 32460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i love how it'd be a really shitty comic without the annotations making fun of it < 1311414465 893431 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would love it anyway < 1311414469 622481 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw, MSPA is more stable now < 1311414475 531433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: i read it ages ago < 1311414477 752850 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as good as quimbox but anyway < 1311414484 68174 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: less than three hundred comics for yr enjoyment < 1311414507 587269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last strip is pretty much the best < 1311414529 82024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pixelcomic.net/044.shtml <-- oerjan < 1311414723 472653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also what's quimbox < 1311414741 486255 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you read the comic right? < 1311414774 910440 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which comic < 1311414781 201320 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quimbox < 1311414783 697414 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have < 1311414790 107974 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you said it was the worst comic in the world < 1311414800 757001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the vjn thing < 1311414815 613799 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311414823 381208 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr it being amazing < 1311414829 906097 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway quim = pussy, assuming you live a few hundred years ago < 1311414865 221247 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The Magic Spirit of rightness is not transitive < 1311414873 614432 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the punchline is going to be amazing. < 1311414922 299599 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311414951 151677 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I LOVE TO IMAGINE THAT WHEN A PIXEL STARTS ROLLING SOME SNOW < 1311414951 673614 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT AUTOMATICALLY REMAINS SQUARE SHAPED" < 1311414990 291156 :Somelauw!~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw JOIN :#esoteric < 1311414997 942745 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay pretty quickly the annotations turn out crucial for the jokeness < 1311415010 157550 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so my ridiculous gmail plan might actually work < 1311415016 847784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's great :D < 1311415029 69504 :Somelauw!~laurent@unaffiliated/somelauw PART :#esoteric < 1311415036 202047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he's like "oops this is totally unfunny, let me say funny things as an annotation" < 1311415073 624500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how even a comic about pixels gets significant art improvement < 1311415110 315457 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I GUESS SOME PIXELS BECOME CELEBRITIES FOR BEING IN SO MANY MOVIES < 1311415173 224454 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some controversy over whether pixels are infact rectangular < 1311415210 813874 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats to be expected i guess < 1311415244 115183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's that thing about them ... not being < 1311415250 521862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for algorgorgotihms < 1311415270 564843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY IDENTICAL PANELS THAT ARE DIFFERENTIATED SOLELY BY THE DIALOGUE < 1311415270 762659 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM A TRUE COMIC ARTIST NOW < 1311415270 960901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :contravarsial dinosaur comics dis < 1311415357 637936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ENCOUNTERED THIS FIERCELY ORANGE CREATURE IN MY BACK YARD < 1311415357 916648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WHEN FETCHING MY DIGITAL CAMERA I OF COURSE FELT THE NEED TO RUN < 1311415358 114515 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN FEAR THAT THIS THING WOULD ESCAPE IN 8 WHOLE SECONDS < 1311415374 682364 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody useless and trivial result: In an m x n section of space, there are no oscillators with period larger than 2^(m*n) < 1311415408 599960 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure? < 1311415420 769722 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1311415452 26776 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is referring to two-state CA with an I-forget-the-name neighborhood < 1311415457 483850 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if state is binary < 1311415500 263989 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :conway's game of life neighborhood? < 1311415504 610976 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1311415522 332778 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311415533 695280 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1311415535 371100 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the neighborhood is irrelevant, come to think of it. well, hmm. What exotic neighborhood could break it? < 1311415538 41256 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you proved it or merely sampled it? < 1311415538 239093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :092 - EXERTION OF POLAR OPPOSITION - 020922 < 1311415538 487666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM ENJOYING THE FACT THAT I AM RAPIDLY BECOMING THE MASTER OF NOT MAKING SENSE < 1311415538 685744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED IN SUBSCRIBING TO AN APPRENTICESHIP FOR NOT MAKING SENSE < 1311415538 685929 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA EMAIL OR AIM < 1311415542 807941 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah if you have a configuration in {0, 1}^{Z^2} that has period vectors (0, m) and (n, 0), then necessarily the orbit of that configuration in your CA is eventually periodic with period less than or equal to 2^{mn}. < 1311415545 303785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it links to both :D < 1311415561 334292 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial to prove but it's actually used all the time < 1311415568 43211 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, I'm too lazy to sample < 1311415588 678897 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are we talking about? < 1311415603 220424 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Although the neighborhood is irrelevant, come to think of it. well, hmm. What exotic neighborhood could break it?" <<< even if the neighborhood and rule are different at every cell, the result follows, just as trivially < 1311415642 623656 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :your state set has size 2^{mn} so a deterministic system will be come periodic with period less than or equal to that < 1311415662 957197 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: cellular automata < 1311415667 52788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just "finite state machines cycle" < 1311415670 170722 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1311415673 269710 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZOMG WOWZ < 1311415723 168622 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, actually, my statement is _slightly_ different from that. I mean a finite sized pattern on an infinite mostly empty grid. Same idea though, but applies only to patterns that don't grow past m*n < 1311415727 2691 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing though < 1311415739 506394 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, did I state "doesn't grow past m*n"? < 1311415742 540971 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might not have < 1311415747 141424 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: but wrapping the rule around? < 1311415753 723152 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1311415757 598509 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1311415769 548177 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oscillator < 1311415821 460796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS THAT < 1311415821 659034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVOLUTION REQUIRES A GIANT DRIP OF SWEAT < 1311415844 180501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :110 - AN END - 030124 < 1311415844 415167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY I SHOULD CONTINUE WITH MY LIFE < 1311415844 415360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND BY LIFE I MEAN COMIC STRIP < 1311415869 49608 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this comic is way too smart for me < 1311415891 817983 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot follow the conversations fast enough for this to even count as a comic < 1311415899 12805 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's study < 1311415903 269966 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311415972 554376 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311415981 273520 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311415993 132869 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, i'll give you no good reasons! < 1311416037 658725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GO TO COLLEGE < 1311416037 936787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT YOU LEARN IN COLLEGE IS < 1311416038 134660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT YOU TRULY VALUE IN LIFE < 1311416046 384670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's like poetry for the soul < 1311416072 918018 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to treat areas of the grid as usefully finite for X time but it is probably imposible, at least usefully < 1311416107 137093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 123 is like oerjan but better < 1311416112 683338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip oerjan++ < 1311416157 125113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF IF I WAS A HAMSTER RUNNING INSIDE MY HAMSTER WHEEL OF HAMSTER FORTUNE AND HAMSTER VIRTUE" < 1311416199 551628 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE TOP OF THE LINE IN FLAT PANEL MONITORS USES PLASMA PIXELS < 1311416211 553530 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Derp misread that as it's used for the top row < 1311416223 594432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONLY $19.95 < 1311416223 846720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WAIT < 1311416224 45621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CALL NOW AND GET AN ADDITIONAL < 1311416224 45711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MINUTE OF YOUR LIFE STOLEN < 1311416244 998832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE QUESTION IS < 1311416245 197747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUPERFLUOUS WEALTH SOMEHOW GIVES ONE < 1311416245 396472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE ABILITY TO GROW AN ERRATIC MOUSTACHE < 1311416245 396670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a question apparently < 1311416255 957395 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1311416318 793934 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get out of here as soon as you can < 1311416372 407859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1311416380 607588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly is an idler < 1311416391 303617 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1311416399 845984 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, is it illegal to idle? < 1311416408 364166 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I want to treat areas of the grid as usefully finite for X time but it is probably imposible, at least usefully" <<< if this was still about CA, idgi, please explain < 1311416447 674913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: nope, Taneb seemed to think you were new < 1311416456 901515 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :areas of the grid would seem to mean (m x n section of space) < 1311416469 361831 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, I was trying to stop more people be drawn into this single conversation < 1311416475 170888 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than the channel as a whole < 1311416479 412418 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: yeah i got that < 1311416503 136365 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :usefully finite sounds like the pipe dream part < 1311416556 518952 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so once again let me mention that injective on finite configurations <==> surjective < 1311416607 354477 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :valid in any dimension and on many many many other groups < 1311416811 308412 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never remember jectives < 1311416845 701595 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :surjective = onto, injective = one-to-one; onto = all have preimage, one-to-one = different go to different in the mapping < 1311416877 524884 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sur is just french for onto < 1311416879 552036 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another one < 1311416890 34275 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well bijective but that's easy to remember < 1311417117 424092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311417161 145439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1311417345 989702 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah but elliott doesn't know that < 1311417381 836851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc i don't < 1311417488 376536 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :really you only know what you've been told, or otherwise gathered from your perceptions, and also the stuff you've independently thought up in your head < 1311417520 598725 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps some other stuff that was there in the first place < 1311417537 533225 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus i dunno some bonus maybe < 1311417540 589854 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pizza < 1311417544 441792 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1311417900 980785 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that just what they want you to thin < 1311417905 17097 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^think < 1311418353 858695 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Derp. < 1311418384 316125 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just proved to myself that there are countably infinite finite-sized oscillators, then realized that there are countably infinite finite-sized patterns < 1311418393 575104 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I think everyone's sick of my failures < 1311418567 98519 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1311418569 891662 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :those aren't failures < 1311418589 51115 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are just unremarkable successes < 1311418647 827951 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-53.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311418687 121555 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume the actual algorithm for enumerating through all finite-sized oscillators is also unremarkable? < 1311418711 134952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As remarkable as the one for bit strings with a condition < 1311418849 78460 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _just_ realized how to determine if a finite-sized pattern is a GoE or not... and I was talking about related stuff just hours ago. < 1311418852 853298 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION slaps self < 1311418871 287130 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And yes, that's what I was looking for for quite a long period of time here) < 1311419188 395356 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of math is unremarkable < 1311419202 55485 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of math is unremarkable < 1311419204 874849 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all < 1311419244 323650 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: This sort of stuff is good. Keep at it, and tell me if you can prove or disprove the existence of oscillators with no entry points in finite grids of games of life < 1311419286 208756 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, are you saying you know the answer? < 1311419328 928859 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any such oscillators with no entry points would have to be a certain size, and have no internal gaps of a certain size. < 1311419360 503784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : all of math is unremarkable < 1311419363 394715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i take it you can't do any math? < 1311419385 965552 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(joking, but with a point.) < 1311419409 251598 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the answers are only remarkable until some other rule comes along and generalizes them < 1311419513 196801 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's restrict myself to an n*n grid. < 1311419515 861033 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: No, I don't < 1311419528 733039 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, surely there are reasons for math beyond our understanding < 1311419552 416171 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic foundations of abstract algebra are utterly boring < 1311419558 457517 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the wondrous things you can do with it are not < 1311419634 436655 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :n*n grid, (n-5) by (n-5) patterns all have GoEs. But some of those patterns may oscillate into each other, so that there is 1 GoE for each... wait, no! < 1311419663 851282 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311419688 362484 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even in the case of oscillators, there are multiple GoEs for each phrase of the oscillator (as long as each phrase is at the particular size or smaller) < 1311419697 485095 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svXeDHE6tBU < 1311419709 917707 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you could put that spare dot in several locations < 1311419719 532142 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can even do it for n by n-5 < 1311419755 64051 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of math is unremarked, but quite markable. < 1311419775 590073 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is what I have so far: Any pattern with a 5x5 space admits an eden to its next generation < 1311419778 429655 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This puts a rather high lower bound on number of GoEs: 2^[n(n-5)] < 1311419778 986473 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've got a sword < 1311419810 293576 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you can stick a dot in the center of that space without affecting the result (which is, in CA parlance, to say that they are twins) < 1311419868 794342 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that greatly increases the lower bound < 1311419870 602798 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an entry point? < 1311419899 592676 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say that | | are symbols for repeat < 1311419902 548313 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A |B C| < 1311419906 827372 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been holding a sword < 1311419907 869855 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A would be an entry point < 1311419913 617305 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1311419914 590812 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" the basic foundations of abstract algebra are utterly boring" <<< no they are not! < 1311419920 499475 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are utterly awesome < 1311419938 462066 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Axioms are boring < 1311419942 658140 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that you do with axioms are cool < 1311419957 373898 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i thought you meant things like the homomorphism theorem and stuff < 1311419972 5447 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Thus to prove the existence of an oscillator with no eden predecessors, you must have an oscillator that never contains a five-by-five hole < 1311419984 72594 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is necessary although not sufficient < 1311419989 205431 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "nothing new under the sun" but with numbers. < 1311419992 966831 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1311420024 119360 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ooh, I think, on a torus, "no 5x5 or larger hole" also forces it to be the necessary size < 1311420044 373240 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yeah < 1311420044 790800 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously there cannot be an oscillator that's a GoE < 1311420050 505273 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what do you mean by oscillator? < 1311420068 233049 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so i take entry point = preimage < 1311420091 132227 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: We're trying to reason about the existence of an oscillator with no eden that will result in the oscillator through repeated evolution < 1311420112 627665 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a finite grid such as a torus < 1311420118 402039 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you do know you will never find a GoE for GoL? < 1311420124 476924 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're working on toroids right now < 1311420127 429496 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: uh what < 1311420133 654352 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are big. < 1311420174 637838 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno maybe you are really smart or have a smart program or can read wp < 1311420177 116781 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an 11x11 known orphan < 1311420189 457474 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, if you start from that, then you'll find an orphan easily < 1311420192 89199 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :by doing nothing < 1311420204 29669 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you would never find that yourself < 1311420204 479894 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, even in infinite grids, they exist. And ais523 and I proved that for any pattern on a finite grid that has a 5x5 or larger hole (coppro, I'm using this formulation now), there's a GoE that results in it < 1311420226 710945 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no, but someone else found it for me < 1311420228 981230 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so whee < 1311420262 861311 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :results in it? you mean evolves into it? no that's obviously false < 1311420284 388514 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/finite/toroidal/ < 1311420302 999350 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well unless 0 iterations of the rule are allowed as well < 1311420319 42765 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this is accepting 0 iterations < 1311420325 294823 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that one holds in any finite space < 1311420342 148316 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1311420346 13524 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh for gol again < 1311420351 737264 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the one about oscillators might be different between finite limited space, and finite toroidal space < 1311420355 185191 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes this is all gol < 1311420361 428694 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAs exist without edens < 1311420367 43183 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1311420386 902942 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, back to the subject at hand < 1311420408 231589 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol, even in infinite grids, they exist. And ais523 and I proved that for any pattern on a finite grid that has a 5x5 or larger hole (coppro, I'm using this formulation now), there's a GoE that results in it" <<< how did you prove this? < 1311420421 220448 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, read logs < 1311420421 418420 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is for periodic configs, that is, toroidal? < 1311420440 227506 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i have a counterexample < 1311420442 30681 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes. Or, might work for other finite as well. Certainly other finite that wraps < 1311420446 502264 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1311420459 341854 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, maybe not, hmmhmm < 1311420462 581172 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where in the logs, today? < 1311420469 677313 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either today or yesterday < 1311420475 336416 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was explaining to coppro < 1311420481 348745 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the proof is fairly straightforwad < 1311420484 543259 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timezones scare me < 1311420487 592401 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*forward < 1311420495 168810 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Just add a dot in the 5x5 hole < 1311420526 46077 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what then < 1311420566 869038 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work backwards. You're not in an oscillator, so all possible patterns going backwards must eventually be a GoE. < 1311420594 618279 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: More lucidly this time < 1311420596 915947 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was for periodic ok < 1311420641 611538 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why aren't you in an oscillator? < 1311420666 378519 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you aren't, you already must have a finite number of predecessors since there are only finite states to work from and repeated application will never get you back to an earlier one < 1311420725 112087 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously, if you restrict to configs with periods m and n; why aren't you in an oscillator? < 1311420759 328492 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me restate the proof better < 1311420771 786397 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a really simple answer for that that is in my head that just won't come out < 1311420774 78677 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you restate the trivial part, i will slap you < 1311420778 207037 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless my thinking is muddled < 1311420876 804912 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you keep going backwards, and you're in an oscillator somehow, then you get...now I'm wondering if this proof only works for starting from oscillators... but if it's not an oscillator then it's a preimage to one < 1311420877 3120 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :really i'd like to hear your definition of hole < 1311420894 129733 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a 5x5 empty space you cannot move out of, using only white cells? < 1311420918 884254 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :5x5 dead cells surrounded by anything < 1311420928 133593 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean obviously otherwise you can just take a 5x5 empty space and surround it with small oscillators to find something with infinitely many preimages < 1311420930 413419 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311420936 758347 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given some state, an infinite number of applications must eventually oscillate due to finite state space. If the repeated applications do not arrive at the original, you are not in an oscillator and must have finitely many predecessors. If you are in an oscillator, make a cell live in the center of a 5x5 square of dead cells. This pattern is a twin to yours, so they have the same successor. But the oscillator cannot reach this twin through re < 1311420940 435916 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then it's obviously false < 1311420973 66627 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the state wiht the added live cell is a predecessor as its successor is a part of the same oscillator < 1311420983 358176 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that's a good point < 1311421093 655499 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :either the original thing with a 3x3 hole or the one with an added dot must not be an oscillator, since they have the same image, and therefore one of them has an n'th preimage that's a goe < 1311421102 113972 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311421113 214999 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the size 5x5 give you that in fact it's the original one? < 1311421134 977398 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :5x5 is required to ensure that the added cell doesn't interact with anything < 1311421154 48690 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed it is < 1311421167 23571 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what the rule was < 1311421175 933735 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so did I at first :) < 1311421207 913756 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I want to tackle the harder problem :D < 1311421239 916439 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we count how many patterns there are with 5x5 or larger holes? < 1311421254 976520 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's the lower bound on GoEs < 1311421258 561134 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's usually the one with the dot that has a goe nth preimage, since you can, as i said, just have small oscillators and a 5x5 hole in between them < 1311421351 469050 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if that 11x11 thingie can be made to collapse into the all-0 configuration, then all finite configs have a goe preimage (although it might not fit in your favorite torus) < 1311421359 244167 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what's the harder problem? < 1311421388 304081 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Do all finite configs have a geo preimage? < 1311421410 688330 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a finite goe preimage, on an infinite grid? or torus again < 1311421415 648218 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :torus < 1311421430 192731 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrapping around? < 1311421432 994703 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, which sizes of torii admit states with no goe preimage < 1311421437 717772 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what torii do < 1311421449 779518 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually yeah < 1311421466 701854 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tori < 1311421512 438984 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :goe is too complicated for this to be at all interesting really < 1311421534 515924 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :too complicated to be interesting? what? < 1311421548 235337 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mathematically interesting < 1311421551 555086 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno where you get your kicks < 1311421651 738418 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm pretty sure that anything smaller than 3x3 admits nothing other than the trivial oscillator < 1311421656 970318 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol: Do all finite configs have a geo preimage?" <<< well for this particular question, actually the answer is trivially "yes", but questions that actually depend on gol, kind of hard < 1311421672 213982 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1311421679 540882 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what the fuck am i saying :D < 1311421680 612591 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, wait, it is? < 1311421688 28931 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, describe please < 1311421703 452458 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no trivially true for all non-surjectives < 1311421705 584300 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not < 1311421756 806182 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :D < 1311421787 385992 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how far have you checked? < 1311421808 220051 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :From experimetnation, it appears that 3x3 admits only period-1 oscillators and patterns that produce the trivial oscillator in one or two generations, and if by two, the intermediate state is always the all-on state < 1311421818 965780 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very far, I'm playing around manually < 1311421829 741631 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may write a script tomorrow to do serious checking < 1311421859 288680 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're actually testing stuff? That's boring :/ < 1311421873 951644 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's no way to do this any other way < 1311421884 85385 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for small patterns < 1311421912 843321 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311421919 833637 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :experiment for the small case < 1311421920 274519 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably prove it for all large enough patterns by looking at the images of the goe on the wiki < 1311421921 439481 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cases < 1311421923 224160 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can prove that the lower bound on GoEs = the number of patterns without 5x5 holes < 1311421931 450145 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pedia < 1311421934 674804 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: That's hardly sufficient < 1311421949 856366 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many patterns are there without 5x5 holes? < 1311421955 234021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: whoosh < 1311421977 64823 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that the answer is constant beyond a certain size < 1311421986 41868 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it might be. if it's not, what else can you do really. < 1311421995 668402 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: See if there's a pattern < 1311422012 65331 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it's only prime by prime tori? < 1311422012 346912 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what? < 1311422016 737450 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there an upper bound on number of GoEs? < 1311422024 912182 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yes. The number of states < 1311422027 692969 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1311422038 50771 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take a random problem, you will find a random answer. it's not the prime by prime tori. < 1311422065 342372 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, number of patterns without 5x5 holes is the upper bound < 1311422088 470074 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1311422095 747469 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is equivalent to: Is the number of GoEs = to the upper bound? If not, then there's a pattern without a 5x5 hole that is not a GoE < 1311422102 280051 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: prove it :P < 1311422109 393512 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Dude < 1311422115 929444 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: that makes no sense < 1311422136 111370 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :an upper bound is an estimation; you need some criterion for the upper bound < 1311422142 990037 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :making conjectures is a great way to progress < 1311422152 87856 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that particular one is obviously false < 1311422153 315871 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, replace "upper bound" with "number of patterns without 5x5 holes" < 1311422154 258861 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry < 1311422160 699955 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1311422165 693582 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case I go with oklopol < 1311422175 713935 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fun fact: any 3-cell pattern on a 3x3 torus immediately fills the entire torus and dies < 1311422198 657741 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :every cell sees every cell so obviously < 1311422226 280614 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :only depends on the amount of live cells < 1311422237 703955 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, someone tell me a way to count patterns without 5x5 holes < 1311422241 264691 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's instantly everyone alive, or instantly everyone dead < 1311422241 463142 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There has to be an easy way < 1311422257 856153 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right, thanks for beating sense into me :D < 1311422289 133121 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I could do it in a few minutes, but it doesn't seem worth it < 1311422317 208689 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a counting problem < 1311422350 50783 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and if the lower bound on GoEs ever equals it for some sized tori, we'll have some answers < 1311422363 824524 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems quite unlikely < 1311422381 653351 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :except on small tori < 1311422412 880807 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you're above 16x11 then you definitely won't hit that bound < 1311422417 899386 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there is a known 11x11 orhpan < 1311422479 719736 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh 3x3 torus. nifty < 1311422481 727257 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i still don't get how you know 5x5 hole => goe nth preimage, all we've established is either that pattern or the one with a dot in the middle has one, how did you do the final step? < 1311422498 134212 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean there are patterns with a 5x5 hole that are in an oscillator < 1311422505 756181 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said < 1311422536 258030 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: will every 3x3 torus eventually die? < 1311422545 68727 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: in at most 2 steps < 1311422547 312171 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: or be stable < 1311422548 622111 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :homework: why? < 1311422564 412707 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, if it's in an oscillator, then that cell will die, and the oscillator will eventually reach the same position except without the dot < 1311422567 300766 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1311422572 513718 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I misunderstanding your question? < 1311422578 201735 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember the rule < 1311422604 952482 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Suppose that one of the two has no goe nth premiage. Then it must be in an oscillator as the state space is finite. But that means its successor is a predecessor, and its successor has the other twin as an nth preimage and hence has a geo nth preimage; contradiction < 1311422606 481876 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right the rule is not symmetric w.r.t. live and dead cells, in that case 3x3 is not quite as trivial as i said < 1311422618 279193 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :still pretty trivial though < 1311422627 31250 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule is 2 or 3 to stay alive, 3 to birth < 1311422662 715026 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a contradiction that the config with a 5x5 hole is in an oscillator < 1311422680 193636 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that can happent < 1311422682 61092 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*happen < 1311422684 192830 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sure < 1311422687 177875 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, did I misunderstand your question? < 1311422696 520721 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose it's a p2 oscillator < 1311422701 957658 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it has to have a goe nth preimage because its successor does, and its successor is itself an nth preimage < 1311422706 546606 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's in n oscillator < 1311422708 910681 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in an < 1311422709 327488 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pattern in phase 1 + dot has goe primage. < 1311422711 461912 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :preimage. < 1311422723 385595 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, phase 2 + no dot has goe preimage < 1311422731 468597 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then phase 1 + no dot has goe preimage < 1311422829 659483 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" But it has to have a goe nth preimage because its successor does" <<< are you claiming this is a general truth for CA? < 1311422854 180048 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1311422857 47327 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No < 1311422873 133899 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what CA is it not true for? Nondeterministic? < 1311422883 194450 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there nondeterministic CAs? < 1311422910 838676 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't see why that's true < 1311422944 349063 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, I misread the quote as "predecessor" < 1311422949 543276 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Okay, let me try this again from the top. Given a state S with a 5x5 hole, put a dot in that hole and call it H. < 1311422959 940383 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you just explain the part i don't get < 1311422965 761577 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I'm trying to < 1311422971 466852 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_> Pattern in phase 1 + dot has goe primage. < 1311422971 745631 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : preimage. < 1311422971 943952 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Then, phase 2 + no dot has goe preimage < 1311422971 944026 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Then phase 1 + no dot has goe preimage < 1311422972 142253 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm not quite sure what part that is < 1311422985 589855 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm not getting what part you're not getting? < 1311422988 489044 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both S and H cannot be in the same oscillator as the generation function is bijective within an oscillator and G(S) = G(H) < 1311423006 748311 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they cannot be in different oscillators for the same reason < 1311423013 93190 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So one is not in an oscillator < 1311423024 255287 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1311423028 467702 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay igi :D < 1311423038 563164 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey that's a neat trick < 1311423098 988032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this code is a shit :( < 1311423134 715296 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, do Game of Life stuff with us < 1311423134 913189 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I want to write a script which will enumerate every state of a finite torus GoL modulo symmetry and create a graph of the results < 1311423143 232303 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think sleep must come first < 1311423155 652275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no < 1311423206 915477 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to generalize < 1311423214 452808 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have two preimages, then you have a goe nth preimage < 1311423218 364416 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311423233 435349 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in finite state space, anyway < 1311423236 902529 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311423268 177934 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do I suddenly feel like this is going to become category theory < 1311423365 900336 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good analogy can apply to anything < 1311423400 947546 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if one of your images has a goe nth preimage, then you have one as well < 1311423409 468614 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in finite space < 1311423449 415672 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to need to go out soon < 1311423460 102144 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chicken sandwich for breakfast :D < 1311423472 557603 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311423487 67766 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right < 1311423500 606479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: omg how amazing D::DDDD < 1311423512 171600 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting lemma for functions acting on a finite space, certainly, nothing to do with ca tho < 1311423530 670917 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all a function of IRC < 1311423532 201693 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x3 admits oscillators with no goe nth preimage, as does 1xn with n>=3 < 1311423575 576059 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait < 1311423579 54242 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With no goe nth preimage, or no goe nth preimage provable with a 5x5 hole? < 1311423579 610317 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1311423583 875999 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :has to be even n < 1311423606 244034 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, if you can prove there's only one preimage, that would do it < 1311423618 721638 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh, stop obsessing about 5x5 holes pervert < 1311423639 348149 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... actually, odd may admit a seriously wacky oscillator < 1311423671 56774 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I am looking at a video with the heading "morphism category theory" and I'm getting basic knot theory explained < 1311423713 912959 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so 1xn with odd n admits oscillators < 1311423715 566384 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat ones too < 1311423732 59040 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be good for the patterns of random lights that repeat in weird cycles in scifi schows < 1311423753 516417 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there we go < 1311423762 408784 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they each represent a symmetric 2-morphism < 1311423765 520342 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO WONDER < 1311423778 551893 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the only way not to admit an oscillator is to have everything go to zero < 1311423789 353758 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :err sorry < 1311423803 92366 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-goe predecessor oscillator < 1311423825 806889 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :need a good adjective < 1311423827 84371 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :stranded? < 1311423832 49620 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think we have a name for this concept in math < 1311423838 127222 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so come up with your own < 1311423847 208609 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :k I'm calling them stranded oscillators < 1311423852 586928 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I consider everything at 0 to be a period 1 oscillator < 1311423873 622375 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a name for ones which have arbitrarily long preimage chains, such points are said to belong to the limit set of the CA < 1311423873 820429 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the 1x11 torus is weird < 1311423873 820603 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that an abuse of terminology? < 1311423901 613561 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ah ok, that works then < 1311423912 207179 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: that's the terminology i'd use, i just assumed coppro meant there has to be a 1 since he said it admits one < 1311423914 822960 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait, no it doesn't < 1311423931 794033 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with that terminology < 1311423940 59219 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if every point goes to the all-0 config for some state 0, the CA is said to be nilpotent < 1311423949 748038 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then there exists a k such that all points to go all-0 in k steps) < 1311423949 946798 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :symmetric 2-morphism? < 1311424011 891754 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x5 is nilpotent < 1311424015 465970 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: talking about the video < 1311424059 922516 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x7 has a weird spaceship oscillator < 1311424064 195763 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1311424110 18596 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, how about a xenophobic oscillator < 1311424118 734606 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wha < 1311424119 846504 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1311424122 222744 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that name < 1311424131 803557 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it not like other kinds of oscillators < 1311424136 242692 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1311424144 791022 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't like any state except its own members < 1311424150 480869 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :exclusive might work too < 1311424167 540478 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311424169 55791 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by that? < 1311424186 478118 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PART :#esoteric < 1311424197 695432 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311424215 727175 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Just trying to name these oscillators with no predecessors < 1311424223 212846 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1311424245 563810 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose a closed oscillator would probably be best < 1311424268 27968 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you have a set that cannot be entered, kind of like a fortress. so call each config in there a *drumroll* brick < 1311424280 267341 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did you prove they exist for the 1xn and ... the other thing you proved? < 1311424319 586918 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, experimentally, but how do you demonstrate they have no other preimages? < 1311424330 614271 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed is good, in fact it's a closed set in the topology given by one-way orbits < 1311424343 348241 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(clopen in fact) < 1311424359 750752 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1xn for even n I'm not 100% sure about but could probably sketch up a proof < 1311424375 525814 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology given by one-way orbits being that a set is open if it's closed under the map < 1311424382 211343 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :any zebra stripe pattern is stable and I'm pretty sure also has no other predecessors < 1311424412 569989 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can go through all the configs, it's easy enough to enumerate stranded ones < 1311424417 333601 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1311424428 678512 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if I prefer stranded or closed < 1311424430 970350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rendaer a q < 1311424447 950647 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed is more conventional but stranded sounds more like the concept < 1311424455 660280 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: 3x3 is straightforward < 1311424487 527485 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: in 3x3 all configurations with exactly 3 cells alive are stable and all others die out in at most 2 generations < 1311424528 90955 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah, at some point I will write a script to enumerate these < 1311424534 78594 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, ok. < 1311424559 434472 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :enumerate ones that belong to a closed oscillator? < 1311424609 274360 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, at least for small tori < 1311424635 737749 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember to use the fact you only need to look at the first preimages, and then enumerate the whole orbit if you have multiple < 1311424642 512892 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise that's gonna take some time < 1311424669 24164 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose < 1311424672 702832 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have multiple preimages for a state, then it's not a closed/stranded oscillator < 1311424674 282718 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc < 1311424710 471229 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not, point is you never need to look further than that because a point is in a closed oscillator iff it has a preimage not in a closed oscillator < 1311424728 508548 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: sketch of prrof for 1xn in my head < 1311424736 952134 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for even n, anyway) < 1311424818 309004 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x9 appears to really really like a single oscillator < 1311424839 328445 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :have yet to find a pattern other than all-off and all-on that doesn't result in i < 1311424843 422930 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in it < 1311424882 326280 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(another problem: Is there a general solution to the number of distinct oscillators on an mxn torus? < 1311424917 21236 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, bed < 1311424920 895958 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1311424940 114743 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: nope there isn't one or nope there can't be one? < 1311424957 974609 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope there can't be one, assuming the way you can implement a tm in gol is in any way sensible < 1311424970 809415 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311424975 952371 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311424979 423928 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1311424990 903680 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1311425001 563425 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :First: You can't impement a TM on a torus < 1311425002 626067 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311425008 944137 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't? < 1311425024 305942 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it grows forever even if its tape doesn't? < 1311425029 768445 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, TM implies infinite storage < 1311425034 970388 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A torus is not infinite < 1311425059 999808 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does the gol implementation need expanding space for constant storage < 1311425061 279027 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, that's what I usually mean when I say torus, anyway < 1311425100 583493 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't, there can't be a general solution to the number of distinct oscillators < 1311425104 377157 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not in the form of a tm < 1311425104 794557 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what? < 1311425121 547577 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1311425125 947647 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need expanding space for expanding storage, I'd assume < 1311425137 884715 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, that's not what i asked < 1311425141 415857 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't forbid expanding storage without forbidding TM < 1311425174 335985 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1311425176 546150 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely, a counterexample, then: Why can't you simply enumerate every mxn pattern, and count the oscillators? < 1311425202 638390 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :err sure you can do that :D < 1311425205 537847 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*surely < 1311425209 610367 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i meant originally < 1311425217 956876 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that the fact you can implement a tm < 1311425224 738755 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :means there can't be any sort of nice formula < 1311425231 60828 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not in any rigorous sense < 1311425236 485934 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a "nice formula"? < 1311425241 713997 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nice formula" has no meaning < 1311425251 113362 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i said "not in any rigorous sense" < 1311425262 985900 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i then forgot that this was all i meant and claimed you can't even calculate them < 1311425298 71731 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not true since given m and n, you can certainly just count the oscillators < 1311425328 855642 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for instance this is certainly p-complete < 1311425334 64991 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can implement tm's < 1311425338 935093 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, hm. I'm still not quite sure I get what finite state automa have to do with this < 1311425343 723723 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm refusing to call it TM < 1311425512 126465 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the point is you can draw an initial part of the infinite tape with a tm using logspace, this is all you usually need for p-hardness results < 1311425688 115450 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what i mean is that whether a single config is in an oscillator should be p-hard, since you can reverse your computation and start over with yes-instances, and go to all-0 or something for no-instances < 1311425734 172951 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I'm a bit confused < 1311425766 710349 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well to, hopefully, unconfuse you, you are certainly right in that you can just count oscillators < 1311425767 127541 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, is doing several GoL generations and comparing generally considered p-hard? I'm a bit lost with complexity classes. < 1311425783 412591 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait < 1311425792 431336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :p-hard < 1311425809 411607 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'm saying is there can't, intuitively, be a nice formula for this, because there never is for this kind of things. < 1311425815 904863 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: (sic) < 1311425886 369882 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically just means you can draw a finite part of a turing machine config in the state < 1311425892 570115 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a circuit < 1311425894 447159 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is running GoL for 2^mn generations not intuitively a nice formula? < 1311425913 966365 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a nice algo, i wouldn't call it a formula < 1311425919 505309 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1311425961 404794 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is the algo "for i in ... setp gol" < 1311425966 659175 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :step < 1311425984 222387 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't call it a formula < 1311425993 421604 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would call m^n + n^m a formula < 1311426023 149017 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1311426028 841286 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that's actually some kind of solution to the problem < 1311426042 499946 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you surely cannot have, because you can implement a tm. < 1311426051 236933 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I know what nice means, kind of. We would like a nice means of determining the existence of stranded oscillators, without brute-forcing < 1311426080 121696 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but there must be a formal definition of what it is that you cannot have? < 1311426098 297802 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just studied the 2x2 toroidal by hand.. because formulas for these things are simply over my head. < 1311426099 172100 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: i'm not aware of one, i suppose that would be complexity classes < 1311426103 603711 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was fun to see < 1311426110 822471 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, get Golly < 1311426119 62761 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all i'm saying is tm ==> all hope is gone, mathematically < 1311426125 977384 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't even have Golly open right now < 1311426131 996280 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-53.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311426152 488115 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, tbh, that sounds more like a rule of thumb. And again, you can't have TM on a finite torus < 1311426170 728876 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, a rule of thumb that's always true < 1311426177 34736 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like the church-turing thesis < 1311426184 630575 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 out of 16 died... and the other 4 turned into fascinating "up" "down" "left" "right" shapes < 1311426203 796080 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a tm on a finite torus, it will just explode if it tries to use too much space < 1311426231 288244 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my thumb still applies < 1311426232 854666 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :by turned into i should say "remained as" < 1311426363 360836 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there's no "nice" way to see the result of a TM without running it... but all that really equates into is there's no way to see the result of a TM without the thing computing the result, whether by simulating the TM or not, definitely not halting < 1311426394 255186 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really sure how to apply that here. < 1311426394 943403 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1311426466 771157 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you apply it by noting you cannot know whether a tm drawn on a config is in an oscillator without running it, which means the only possible formula is brute-force. < 1311426491 387668 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not a formal proof, but only an ass would not accept it < 1311426556 129920 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to mentally s/tm/fsm/ what you said and say ok < 1311426560 680711 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :point is, you cannot take a random problem and expect it to be mathematically interesting, the solution will be just as random < 1311426594 541703 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you want to be a fucking outstanding retard, go ahead < 1311426639 509829 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prepares more insults < 1311426660 561578 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you substitute fsm where i say tm, that really means nothing < 1311426670 176893 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can solve the halting problem for your "TM" on the torus < 1311426673 154331 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is it's a certain kind of fsm, one that has a tape. < 1311426681 337077 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always try to direct everything i think about onto gaming. I figure that to give a game depth at its core then some mathematics is required. < 1311426710 583450 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the trick becomes how to turn a mathematical problem into a fun game. < 1311426722 829162 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't been done yet < 1311426733 106953 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprise us all and be the first < 1311426748 626705 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hmm? Are you talking to me or itidus20? < 1311426781 701562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can solve the halting problem for your "TM" on the torus < 1311426783 763399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tm =/= jutm < 1311426786 161623 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :utm < 1311426796 90595 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1311426801 7279 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1311426810 665666 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is the joke that you're missing the point as badly as Sgeo_? < 1311426836 479235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the joke is all the words < 1311426843 709658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only read that line anyway < 1311426850 896758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just kind of assumed anything Sgeo_ said would be something like that < 1311426855 976830 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, here's the solution to the halting problem: Run it. If it crashes, or otherwise doesn't return to the initial state after 2^mn, it halts, otherwise, it doesn't. < 1311426874 231387 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he was mostly missing the point and expressing it in random ways < 1311426954 9563 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well work time < 1311426990 561591 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :since last night i realized all lattices with continuous shift-commuting operations over S^Z can be recoded into pointwise lattices < 1311427032 552445 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, you have a conjugate subshift and the lattice operations only look at the ith symbols of their arguments to determine the ith symbol of the image < 1311427085 485572 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oklopol seems to think that turing-machines can exist in finite space. And just to be clear on the idea of finite tape possibly being TM vs UTM, he mindboggled when I said that I could solve the halting problem for his TM (although maybe he thought I meant with stuff _on_ the machine, which is impossible) < 1311427127 384866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wacky oklopol with his strange uncommon mathematical beliefs < 1311427154 851531 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if I'm missing something, please tell me < 1311427167 125595 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics is my religion < 1311427182 413886 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i ever actually proved anything < 1311427200 835252 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :for actual games one thing that tends to be necessary is interfacing the math models with non-math things. < 1311427256 70779 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether the interfaced things is actually non mathematic is questionable though < 1311427281 136844 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: sorry i was talking to itidus20, i have you on ignore < 1311427291 259335 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did not mindboggle at you claiming that trivial thing < 1311427318 550093 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry to everyone that i am always offtopic < 1311427375 411865 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so, its a bit like what the chinese did with yin and yang, and trigrams. applying meanings. < 1311427380 744775 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-7-246.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311427439 400956 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so 00=north, 01=east, 10 = west, 11=south < 1311427464 83110 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :congratulations, you discovered binary < 1311427503 161326 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the pure mathematicians never actually apply it to anything.. the "interfacing" < 1311427510 593642 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess its horses for courses < 1311427531 831662 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they make it all possible etc < 1311427569 673115 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is our disagreement here just a matter of terminology? < 1311427577 863805 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am sure that if i did that better i could say north + east = northeast < 1311427680 642302 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, easy way for the future is to assign 1 bit to 1 ... bit < 1311427694 374424 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So north/south gets 1s place, east/west gets 2s place, or something like that < 1311427706 277791 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that doesn't... quite... hm < 1311427713 127736 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of assumes defaults < 1311427782 321614 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah.. it was right how i had it.. no doubt < 1311427840 490551 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh fuck it. time for me to take a break. < 1311427840 688399 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1311427844 243690 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it trivially doesn't work < 1311427849 199609 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My scheme, I mean < 1311427873 333434 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 possible states, so you need 3 bits < 1311427888 27819 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :00 + 01 = 01 .. that creates a problem < 1311427898 126993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do a bitmask duh < 1311427899 561129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :powers of two < 1311427973 160167 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: yes, fizzie thinks this is the nineties, and does things like use bitshifts instead of division <-- I think the most bitshifts are where there are negative numbers, where bitshift != round-towards-zero division. (Though it admittely uglily assumes sign-extending arithmetic shift for signed quantities.) < 1311427974 722022 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to think of a non-ugly way to do it in 3 bits now. < 1311428029 427 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A NORTH flag, a WEST flag, and one more flag < 1311428032 982386 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :applying meanings to numbers is approximately as fun as processing the numbers < 1311428079 859127 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, duh. If I only had two flags, so NORTH or not NORTH (south), and WEST or not WEST (east), then you only get diagonal directions < 1311428141 136115 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it doesn't work out neatly if using addition < 1311428147 428101 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition is kind of a luxury < 1311428184 352004 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivial ordering, probably ugly though, let's see what happens: 000 = N, 001 = NE, 010 = E, 011 = SE, 100 = S, 101 = SW, 110 = W, 111 = NW < 1311428198 466503 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm honestly thinking ternary at this point < 1311428217 511927 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can trivially do it in two trits < 1311428250 738719 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, with space left over. Oh, for neutral < 1311428265 688034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : just do a bitmask duh < 1311428265 922859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : powers of two < 1311428277 562527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, three bits < 1311428283 900777 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1311428291 567353 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems space left over is the price for being able to add them < 1311428296 101804 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you'd need NORTH, NOT NORTH, and SOUTH < 1311428306 22815 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, look < 1311428315 409194 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0+ is North, 0- is South < 1311428321 967279 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :00 is Neutral < 1311428327 38696 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah.. so its a 2s compliment thing? < 1311428341 159658 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :+0 is West, -0 is East < 1311428356 879938 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, no, it's base 3 instead of base 2, but instead of 0, 1, and 2, we go -1, 0, and 1 < 1311428359 444762 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok this is the trits < 1311428381 822132 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, +0 + 0+ is North + West = NorthWest < 1311428385 949686 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric := ++ < 1311428393 881990 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the netral is a necessary placeholder for the addition < 1311428398 252633 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^neutral < 1311428420 83407 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, it's because naturally there isn't on or off, there's forward, backwards, and neither < 1311428422 633888 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311428435 547738 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ok < 1311428455 557315 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're going north, than what would east/west be? Neither. < 1311428466 441748 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're going west, north/south must be Neither < 1311428475 41016 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's to account for the uh.. center point < 1311428502 121823 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh < 1311428505 773395 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :right ok i see now < 1311428514 216705 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats deep < 1311428564 112918 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And these balanced ternary are just numbers < 1311428598 686035 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- = -1*3^1 + -1*3^0 = -3 + -1 = -4 < 1311428636 637641 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-0 = -3, -+ = -2, 0- = -1, 00 = 0, 0+ = 1, +- = 2, +0 = 3, ++ = 4 < 1311428690 571466 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311428715 616263 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with bitmasks, usually you use bitwise or instead of addition, although addition works as long as you're careful that + and - only combine with 0s. Not sure what you use with trits < 1311428733 505834 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quickly, make a guess! < 1311428739 190461 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, sorry, that "as long as" is for trits, not bits < 1311428765 843688 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: to your last question: probably. < 1311428796 373701 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au NICK :itidus20|afk < 1311428813 985752 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so no more arguments about terminology? < 1311428832 382042 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no never ever. < 1311428856 570286 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no makeup sex since i have to work < 1311428908 229298 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i just have to copypaste some stuff and generalize it :-DSASD < 1311428914 491598 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1311430188 43539 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-186-49.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311430191 271922 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-44.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311430334 558832 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1311432017 283002 :oklopollen!82e86f10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.232.111.16 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1311432067 700048 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311432072 221047 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1311432502 29387 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe it or not, etc. etc. etc. < 1311432505 690923 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1311433304 409156 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that's pretty etc, etc, etc. < 1311433348 799747 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather not think about the details so, etc, etc. < 1311433505 60546 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229160096.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup CakeProphet < 1311433640 760886 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing much... < 1311433648 461513 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :chilling after work. tired as shit. < 1311433661 347001 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you knew this or not, but shit gets pretty tired. < 1311433666 371105 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a lot of energy in those motherfuckers. < 1311434676 898755 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm also pretty tired, worked for almost an hour < 1311434736 577641 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311437390 213575 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :hai fizzie < 1311437397 306156 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm Elizacat, and I've taken interest in mcmap :3 < 1311437412 344645 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I've never gotten around to poking you because I'm shy as hell. But hello! < 1311437466 52913 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, um, hello, I guess. (I never really know the correct responses.) < 1311437466 608932 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm interested in helping! I'm told you guys have a private channel for this, if you want to give me an inv I'd be much obliged, but you don't have to if you don't want < 1311437469 208491 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1311437470 653694 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ok :P < 1311437482 613360 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not an extrovert even online, but one of us had to initiate it < 1311437490 154819 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, you don't know who I am < 1311437491 140536 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :so :p < 1311437504 2884 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :the onus would be on me for that wouldn't it < 1311437522 564830 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am extrovert online < 1311437526 723995 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't give a shit. < 1311437538 905701 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm normally pretty nice if not rather unserious :p < 1311437546 850026 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just be aware :P < 1311437555 35910 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always serious business around here. < 1311437559 665070 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a good friend of Vorpal's < 1311437564 488378 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :internet is serious business CakeProphet < 1311437566 635931 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wanna go < 1311437581 544141 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude I'm so good I don't even have to I've already won. < 1311437587 244244 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's a "private" channel for Minecraft-related stuff so that it doesn't clobber things here, but I don't think it's really all that private, it's just a "-minecraft" suffix and I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned publicly here. < 1311437590 257026 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck punctuation. < 1311437591 229916 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, come at me bro < 1311437591 702042 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1311437620 771501 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I've known of it, but I don't like minecraft. < 1311437638 450935 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION encases CakeProphet in a bedrock house and pours lava < 1311437649 190714 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is why Id on't like it..." < 1311437655 206575 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my RL friend made a castle that rebuilds itself. < 1311437660 520982 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that < 1311437661 499160 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1311437670 612233 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal and I built a self-regenerating house <3 < 1311437673 71692 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1311437676 852978 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :he did the logic < 1311437678 396887 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had the idea < 1311437719 643692 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me Vorpal isn't your boyfriend < 1311437727 482125 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might have to kill myself < 1311437741 80546 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they build self-regenerating houses in minecraft together it would be so adorable < 1311437793 772973 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once asked a girl to build stuff with me in mc but she said we were moving too fast < 1311437890 816942 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to teach my ex Python. < 1311437897 841722 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is probably a reason she is my ex. < 1311437934 137591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because she has taste in languages? < 1311437946 495672 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite. < 1311437949 872279 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to teach my ex to program a few times but she just got really mad because she didn't get it < 1311437959 441616 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or didn't get it quickly enough < 1311437963 181683 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1311437985 415243 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elizacat: could you please tell me that < 1311437993 605146 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm scared by your silence < 1311438012 253176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : please tell me Vorpal isn't your boyfriend <-- lol, no I'm not. < 1311438019 414494 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank god < 1311438033 957528 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, just happen to play on the same minecraft server. < 1311438604 461613 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311438864 679863 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311439331 23035 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311439541 796053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311440166 712826 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311440171 339678 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1311440173 449044 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :me dating Vorpal < 1311440177 195740 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry < 1311440178 455464 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just < 1311440179 154956 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :P < 1311440184 334076 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :no offense Vorpal < 1311440186 739413 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wouldn't date you :P < 1311440188 743304 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you wouldn't date me < 1311440190 456778 :Elizacat!~Elizabeth@awos/2nd-in-command/init PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too crazy < 1311440744 764611 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311441027 633917 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blood is thicker than water, but corn syrup is thicker than blood. (An American national pride slogan by me :P ) < 1311441085 132125 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lava is thicker than corn syrup < 1311441117 489993 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that lava is anyone's (de facto) national beverage. But blood probably is? < 1311441180 587546 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be Icelands? < 1311441219 354405 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I was talking about threats of violence < 1311441350 937411 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're ruining my slogan buzz :P < 1311442392 162091 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Lasagne went in at 6:32 < 1311442404 147067 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh sgeo < 1311442425 447124 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh ohhhhhhhhh, sgettio < 1311442447 668308 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know where I'm off to? Lancaster! < 1311442459 94694 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lancaster? < 1311442465 724501 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's in Lancashire! < 1311442472 942683 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dun dun DUNNN < 1311442478 654280 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to Durham tomorrow < 1311442495 711255 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, after tomorrow morning, I won't be online 'till Tuesday < 1311442811 449737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was crazy... X broke... By refusing the believe in the mouse cursor. For example, xkill said it couldn't grab mouse. And mouse did nothing... < 1311442821 676369 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it moved around just fine < 1311442830 797723 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but click didn't work < 1311443023 343531 :GuestIceKovu!x@ANantes-259-1-175-60.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr NICK :Slereah < 1311444425 188760 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :iceland;s national beverage is alcoholic pine tree < 1311445293 386858 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you can ferment or distill or whatever coffee beans < 1311445351 780020 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-44.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it won' < 1311445358 1010 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-44.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :t kill yeast, you can ferment it. < 1311445366 302445 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-44.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if it's liquid, you can distill it. < 1311445512 185217 :itidus21!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1311445512 383246 :itidus20|afk!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311445811 812742 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1311446046 797686 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll bet mercury would kill yeast ... < 1311446322 329835 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what the test service numbers are for my telephone service? Including, telling you your own telephone number, disconnecting your line for a few minutes, etc < 1311446991 139561 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-226-1.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311447029 283170 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-44.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1311447067 506424 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/statements/i-often-get-angry-when-writing-code-in-this-langua < 1311447070 685653 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :*giggles* < 1311447239 195856 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone likes haskell on this site < 1311447303 414919 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric : /win 1 < 1311447522 182604 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In spite of the wording, that's clearly a popularity contest. < 1311447536 398988 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Few people get angry while programming in Haskell because few people program in Haskell. < 1311447565 803160 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, yes, probably that would be why. < 1311447761 842729 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange that that site doesn't let you rank things equal. < 1311448075 590027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311448235 866535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, weird observation: within the first 3 or 4 minutes of my computer loading, the touchpad won't move the mouse cursor above the bottom half of the screen, it keeps bouncing down < 1311448239 71851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a while, it works fine < 1311449124 952812 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311449564 273214 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have now regopherized the Space Weather Prediction Center. < 1311449617 517818 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Some of the files don't work but that is not my fault.) < 1311449665 636405 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whoa < 1311450087 182925 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that? I don't know why some files don't work, but the problem is on their end, not on my end. < 1311450132 907135 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311450139 156770 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The same files fail to work when using other protocols too, including HTTP and FTP.) < 1311450347 125939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1311450937 150604 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol: 123 is like oerjan but better < 1311450938 707418 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1311451082 745133 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this still referring to that pixelcomic < 1311451256 607676 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1311451297 665517 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :those kind of puns are too square for me < 1311452552 909746 :Taneb_!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311452645 8752 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311452753 140572 :Taneb_!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 NICK :Taneb < 1311453678 957815 :Taneb!540d59f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.89.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1311453761 389116 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the D&D game my character current has two items: a 25-foot rope and a navy guest uniform. < 1311453778 677273 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now make up a computer game text adventure game < 1311453854 385845 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1311454190 742153 :Lymee!~moe@adsl-69-149-47-68.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311454191 158890 :Lymee!~moe@adsl-69-149-47-68.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net QUIT :Changing host < 1311454191 356605 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1311454245 540781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1311454350 485824 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't end up posting my password in here, did I? The graphics driver died, and I flailed around blindly trying to "sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart" < 1311454413 132362 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You sent nothing in the past few minutes look in the log files to make sure < 1311454459 239331 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-174-253.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311454459 953455 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-226-1.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1311454913 841578 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know anything else about my optimization problem now? < 1311455566 618216 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what was it again? < 1311455594 529778 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311455761 863246 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Start searching the recent IRC log for "Say that there is a command - which does the next letter" < 1311455807 335134 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The starting timestamp is 1311396023 although there are at least three different formats and from different computers, so just search the text instead) < 1311455998 786749 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1311456005 90399 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt quite make sense < 1311456010 649705 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll read it better soon < 1311456022 653809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunes' time zone is so broken you cannot even search on the minutes. < 1311456176 487574 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: use codu < 1311456184 322500 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :advicewithoutcontext.com < 1311459174 222798 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: there's a thread on haskell-cafe about that reallyUnsafePointerEq# you used http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-July/094103.html < 1311459257 360343 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311459523 507896 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems my use was safe with forseeable ghc < 1311459537 735703 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311459578 501673 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311459763 835225 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am alarmed by the fact that I now feel the need to run memtest < 1311460410 415326 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: What stuff doesn't quite make sense? < 1311460964 533219 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try eat your chopsticks right now! < 1311462225 882582 :itidus21!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au NICK :itidus20 < 1311462294 42937 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have no chopsticks! < 1311462305 156663 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do i... < 1311462530 215469 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look in your cupboard or drawer or closet or cabinet or wherever you keep it. < 1311462609 653943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't you know, i do have a couple! < 1311462622 160773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, they're a bit too nicely decorated to eat. < 1311462632 899258 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :follow the white rabbit < 1311462660 314983 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah i don't want to be chasing the clock < 1311462664 920728 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU it's a marsh hare! a marsh hare! < 1311462674 541573 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1311462707 688253 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :we planted the chopsticks for you to eat < 1311462724 33035 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i don't believe you. < 1311462741 859766 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: we are HERE < 1311462744 557872 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :good. i apologize < 1311462745 469432 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 QUIT :Quit: disconnection error < 1311462771 668031 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no you are not. < 1311462787 270210 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311462791 699619 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, great timing itidus20. < 1311462804 567070 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now oerjan will not BELIEVE THAT THING that WAS DEFINITELY not TRUE at all. < 1311462826 621568 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: LETJOISE HAVE A PERARTY < 1311462848 553023 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :QANTUM BEER NEEDSITY? < 1311462923 693512 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if oerjan was that guy in norway who did that bad stuff, would we even know. :/ < 1311462931 645503 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am just saying that there are a lot of people in norway < 1311462934 625400 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you cannot trust them all < 1311462944 42676 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i doubt they would let him chat from prison. < 1311462976 110952 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying you escaped :| < 1311462986 706907 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this is probably in bad taste :DDDDD < 1311462990 379199 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im sorry ive deeply offended u < 1311462999 636009 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have not escaped. but not from the same place, either. < 1311463049 667275 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311463054 972689 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you trying to escape < 1311463055 364764 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are similarities. i am blond, somewhat tall, and not a muslim. < 1311463055 937619 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS < 1311463056 458513 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MORTAL < 1311463057 139708 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :COIL < 1311463101 783016 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1311463116 413217 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll ignore that question. < 1311463122 584815 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311463151 980321 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. sory. lo oerjan. < 1311463174 251117 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh riead as suggestion < 1311463179 64345 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hows a ijf < 1311463189 528377 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :very rieadbale < 1311463209 206299 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thatw as when oerjan turned into a cat < 1311463212 763762 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :~Thend/ < 1311463229 24875 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :miawat < 1311463265 831458 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mcofnused < 1311463280 489247 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: itns eryvoene < 1311463315 624284 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My memory passed < 1311463325 199121 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rest in peace sgeos memory < 1311463414 91815 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote My memory passed rest in peace sgeos memory < 1311463415 354645 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :542) My memory passed rest in peace sgeos memory < 1311463423 347805 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you ever finish writing at.html < 1311463425 170743 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading < 1311463431 350870 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, /me wants to read it < 1311463435 533368 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ae re verbs actulay < 1311463441 65464 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: me yes i did < 1311463443 930094 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: iduno if anyone else can stan,d,,,,,the @,, < 1311463456 665288 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, you're acting drunk < 1311463459 890948 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has, maximal @ level contents. < 1311463460 839542 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt you're drunk, but < 1311463474 357449 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: so's your face OHOHHHHHHHHHHH BURNSJAP < 1311463487 244621 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no if i was intoxicated i would be sure to be much, much more amusing than this < 1311463496 731906 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically if i'm ever really funny........... < 1311463542 773461 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway drunk people don't act like anything, they just act like irritable, annoying, stupid versions of themselves < 1311463549 865300 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a shame since it's rly boring < 1311463555 44428 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: so are you old enough to drink yet? < 1311463583 104949 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you can drink indoors from like six years old here??????? < 1311463586 528223 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no < 1311463601 723075 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :three and a bit months before that, but it seems pretty boring so i probably won't bother < 1311463694 357742 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :alcohol education taught me never to drink to get drunk < 1311463703 344943 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :an important life lesson < 1311463728 653077 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: did you follow it < 1311463738 939557 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not of legal drinking age......... < 1311463747 192115 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: so yes then < 1311463766 782183 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not actually sure at all why people would get drunk alcohol honestly just seems like the most boring drug, i'm utterly sincere < 1311463790 955608 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-7-246.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311463819 120657 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" < 1311463839 824667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian. < 1311463855 413308 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: so is squarelos the best,,, it is a long story involving me reading the crawl learndb and talking to ais < 1311463864 831491 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian. < 1311463865 679334 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well stab people, in the case of weapon-deprived british < 1311463866 133679 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :543) cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian. < 1311463878 470736 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: public humiliation < 1311463879 712149 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: stop making me into a person i don't want to be with laughter < 1311463884 752421 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: is not cool????? < 1311463892 915054 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i am asking,,,sincere questions:((( < 1311463895 526031 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311463896 588182 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is squarelos,,cool < 1311463901 210289 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not play, crawl, at all, ever, so, < 1311463904 926007 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1311463907 479320 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its sort of a joke < 1311463907 686671 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is good to improve things even if they are bad things < 1311463927 259714 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais says that devs dislike it experienced players like it and everyone else dislikes it < 1311463930 431214 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this true and also is this redundant < 1311463933 239682 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :see crawl has circular line of sight which is ridiculous < 1311463943 799014 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1311463945 307832 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like to have eyes that have circular line of sight < 1311463948 361711 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be great < 1311463950 697810 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well spherical < 1311463957 786895 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well um do i < 1311463960 553274 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know much about eyes < 1311463964 729987 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311464000 254610 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :square los was tried but then got taken down so i made an account called squarelos to lament its demise < 1311464006 835774 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :line of sight tracing a mandelbrot fractal < 1311464009 701449 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip < 1311464031 937587 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway pretty much the only way i ever play crawl anymore is doing stupid things as squarelos true story < 1311464035 168772 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: stop youre just making the universe seem relaly inadequate < 1311464042 192216 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: thats a good way to play games < 1311464063 575830 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1311464066 635969 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with circlelos? < 1311464092 237008 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :was ist los < 1311464134 321876 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :line of sight < 1311464148 949146 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: distance is such that an actual circle in crawl would look like a square this is how crawl space works....yet there's a bucnh of inconsistency like line of sight is based on what looks like a circle to unenlightened humans < 1311464154 775189 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo actually likes crawl though because he's a dumb < 1311464160 739790 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1311464169 825216 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"distance is such that an actual circle in crawl would look like a square this is how crawl space works" < 1311464171 868585 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is beautiful < 1311464175 331312 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to see crawl space < 1311464187 201185 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1311464190 271986 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just manhattan distance < 1311464191 216538 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just chebyshev space i think but it pretends it isnt < 1311464192 170657 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I understand < 1311464205 699489 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :manhattan is taxicab right? crawl has diagonals. < 1311464210 776888 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am i confusing things < 1311464211 655370 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think manhattan is orthogonal moves only < 1311464213 891446 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taxicab yeah. and diagonals suck < 1311464249 674044 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, sometimes I get urges to write things in C that relaly shouldn't be written in C < 1311464253 131315 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :help;p < 1311464269 607112 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to try Chicken again for some reason < 1311464271 23089 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of things do you mean? < 1311464281 415394 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best reason to write anything in anything is that it shouldn't be done < 1311464282 342790 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what programming language do you think those things should be written in? < 1311464284 564775 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i cannot say, it is too abhorrent < 1311464307 516692 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, web toolkit's been done (for either C or C++, don't remember) < 1311464313 851125 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no shit < 1311464324 195771 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt < 1311464324 717587 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: No, the best reason to write anything in anything is that it *cannot* be done (or at least, it seems like it, until it works) < 1311464341 866138 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i was trying to replicate java-style generics except without type erasure because i don't think you can even do that in C. why? well because it shouldn't be done. also because it meant i could implement a custom allocator which, like, knew all about your objects and could inspect them? which would be cool. but. basically i want to implement half a jvm at c level just because it sounds hard/fun < 1311464344 726194 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's < 1311464346 822278 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a bad sign < 1311464366 363681 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \x = (magnitude x)" < 1311464371 766421 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \x -> (magnitude x)typecheck1[0])==1?abc(x):xyz(x)) < 1311464913 800838 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my thoughts ideas, at least. < 1311464949 375559 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, thank you < 1311464958 76595 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, all this stuff looks old < 1311464981 645851 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But how does that fail at type-time if it'st he wrong size? < 1311464989 652545 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size is obviously always 1 < 1311465023 847607 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if (x) is of a different type, then sizeof(x->typecheck1[0]) is not 1 < 1311465039 621423 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can omit the [0] for another number < 1311465052 10021 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311465124 860993 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course this is using completely standard C89. GNU C has its own things. And what is probably acceptable in many compilers (or at least, should be) is make a member of the structure with zero elements array, and then you can measure the size of the array element it can be any number you want without messing up the rest of the program! < 1311465212 79885 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't know for sure, this idea might also be possible with LLVM to force each different structure type to be considered different by having different sizes of data of zero length array at the end. < 1311465331 188207 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/jesus-deepak-chopra/1012718717?ean=9780061980404&itm=7&usri=jesus for the life of me, I can't figure out who the target market is < 1311465498 361067 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you ever read about the Uncarrot Tarot? I did have a idea of a four-player trick-taking game using those cards, which I called "Rulers". (It uses all the cards, including the metas.) < 1311465568 86440 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a Hitchhiker is played to a trick, then you must Hitchhike.