00:01:52 http://pastie.org/private/bwfbg9itrsaqres5uuyfrw 00:01:53 oops 00:02:48 lol 00:03:27 That really wasn't an invitation, it was intended to be pasted in #jesus for luke's benefit 00:05:12 Time bed --> 00:05:21 Night fizzie 00:05:48 hey it's pthing 00:07:19 lol, Phantom_Hoover 00:07:58 what 00:08:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:08:14 Worst party. 00:08:14 cyth: he was never a pope 00:08:14 Fuck this shit. 00:08:14 * angelBot sets ban on *!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 00:08:14 * angelBot has kicked Phantom_Hoover from #jesus (For swearing) 00:08:25 conversion program now put in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function 00:09:09 oerjan: I'm so proud 00:10:42 Have a lizard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sphaerodactylus_parthenopion_004.jpg 00:11:14 whether the word "optimal" can really be applied to a computational model which is something like doubly exponential, i dunno 00:12:26 Sgeo, I always leave #jesus that way. 00:12:50 Oh hey, 3-cell brainfuck 00:13:02 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 00:13:41 NihilistDandy: cute 00:13:46 In conclusion, go NY Jets 00:13:46 Amen 00:13:52 lol 00:14:36 I was under the impression that this person was Christian of a ... "Jesus is love' variety 00:15:17 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:15:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:15:34 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:17:25 Skunks are adorable 00:17:27 are there any popular pro-life responses to http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html ? 00:18:23 Patashu: "You'll kill a baby but not a convicted rapist?" 00:18:43 I dunno, I'm pro-death 00:22:27 pro-death and anti-choice 00:23:25 nihilistdandy, have you read the page? 00:24:53 Some of it 00:25:10 it's about pro-lifers having abortions, not pro-choicers 00:25:16 I know 00:25:43 including two right to life club presidents which I lol'd at 00:25:58 But that's the "hypocrisy" of pro-choice, if you listen to the lifers talk 00:26:45 yup but that would not be a response to 'the only moral abortion is my abortion' 00:27:02 tomaima says: even pro-lifers make the choice that we want to give you when needed 00:27:05 the pro-life response is? 00:27:23 Probably none 00:27:34 Ask #jesus 00:27:42 hi jesus 00:35:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:40:13 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:47:54 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:48:42 OK, → sleep for real now. 00:48:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:50:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:51:16 -!- MDude has joined. 00:56:46 Sgeo: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/pics/fam.jpg 00:56:49 Oh, god, cannot unsee 00:58:12 Also, he's an idolater, fo' sho': http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/reference/pkmn/ 01:14:38 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:21:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:22:41 zzo38 is a MegaZeux person right? 01:26:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:26:40 How can I know some thing about compiling rulebook programming? 01:27:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:27:56 zzo38, http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Zzo38 is you right? 01:28:00 -!- cheater_ has joined. 01:28:07 Although I don't think I've met "classic" zzo38 01:28:26 wait zzo38 has more than one meaning? 01:30:27 Sgeo: I don't know; that isn't a user page. Although User:Zzo38 on that wiki is me; and the game linked there is mine, so are the three external resources. 01:32:16 (In fact I can see they have mentioned whoever wrote that also seems to be unsure, although the stuff under "MegaZeux Games" and "External Links" headings I can confirm are correct) 01:34:03 But the game described on http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town is a game I have made. And there are still some mistakes in that game I ought to correct. 01:34:47 (None of the mistakes would deceive you or prevent the game from being completed from what I know, though. Some just allow you go to in ways that is not supposed to be permitted) 01:44:28 How many things in the "Criticize" list do you believe are correct? 01:49:12 oerjan: What do *you* think? Of course a lot of words can have more than one meaning. 01:52:33 I just realized I can use 3D movie glasses to find the dust on my computer screen. 01:52:58 brilliant :P 01:53:41 Not actually wearing them; I need to use the glasses backwards to make this work (I don't know why). 01:54:24 And the computer needs to be showing a white screen. 01:54:37 If you have LCD monitor and REALD 3D movie glasses, you can try it yourself. 01:55:11 only the former 01:56:12 You also need to rotate 45 degrees counterclockwise 01:57:50 I wonder if I can somehow use the movie glasses and a mirror in order to create stereovision pictures on my computer. 01:58:13 Or maybe just these things are not sufficient. 02:01:04 Do you know how these movie glasses work and why they have the effects they do? I do know about some simpler ones that are simply linear polarization filters, but these are something else. Someone told me it is circular polarization. 02:04:11 it's circular polarizatoin 02:04:15 *polarization 02:05:32 I do not completely understand circular polarization though. I read something about it in Roger Penrose's book "Road to Reality". But I still don't know completely. 02:06:02 it's basically linear polarization, but the direction changes over time, very quickly 02:06:20 I look up some things in Wikipedia about it 02:07:30 OK, so there is left-handed and right-handed; maybe this explains why it is different when looking through it forward or backward. Is it? I don't know. 02:08:09 yes, it should be 02:09:09 > takeWhile (<5) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, undefined] 02:09:11 [1,2,3,4] 02:09:12 > takeWhile (<=5) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, undefined] 02:09:13 [1,2,3,4,5*Exception: Prelude.undefined 02:09:35 Obfuscating Haskell must be fun. 02:09:42 Now, how are LCD monitors polarized? 02:29:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:44:03 -!- lament has joined. 03:09:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:21:31 -!- azaq23 has joined. 03:27:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:48:14 -!- derrik has joined. 03:48:45 -!- derrik has left. 04:15:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:37:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:39:44 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 04:52:24 The rulebook programming I want to implement and figure out how to compile (probably into Haskell) is similar to that of Inform 7 (refer to chapter 18 of the Inform 7 manual), although the Inform 7 rulebooks is insufficient, and Inform 7 is very insufficient. Do you know anything about this? 04:52:56 I can describe various examples (including both things in the Inform 7 manual and things that are not in Inform 7 at all) if you want example, please. 04:59:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:03:50 which manual? 05:04:21 inform 7 has two 05:05:35 -!- evincar has joined. 05:06:01 The "Writing with Inform" manual. 05:06:37 But to truly understand what I mean, you would also have to understand both Haskell and Magic: the Gathering. 05:07:06 The features of rules in Inform 7 is not quite sufficient, although they do have some of the stuff I want. 05:07:44 -!- burned has joined. 05:07:55 If you would like examples, please ask about it. 05:08:04 Or, clarification, etc 05:08:53 how esoteric? 05:09:31 burned: About what? 05:09:47 this room. how esoteric is this room? 05:10:04 I understand Haskell and Magic 05:11:15 burned: pretty fucking esoteric 05:11:25 hmm, indeed 05:11:27 "We're not really esoteric. It's just that nobody cares about us." 05:11:38 indeed, indeed. 05:11:43 coppro: Good, because I would need help from someone who understands these things. 05:11:47 dead inside 05:12:03 Esoteric programming languages is (ostensibly) the topic. 05:12:39 zzo38: are you talking about writing something akin to a Magic card rules parser? 05:12:58 coppro: I think he's talking about writing a language that obeys Magic rules 05:13:36 coppro: Sort of. Not quite. Rather, something that is a programming language that has the features for designing such things. 05:13:47 NihilistDandy: Not quite. 05:14:20 zzo38: interesting 05:14:26 zzo38: can you provide some examples? 05:14:38 preferably not Inform as I'm not familiar with it 05:15:37 coppro: Good, because I am not actually familiar with Inform either; I just read the documentation and examples. But yes I can give some examples. 05:15:42 zzo38: you would like a man who goes by the nick betta_y_omega 05:17:14 very much into difficult existential observations, just as you seem to be. 05:17:23 You could have the "if a creature has toughness>0 and damage>=toughness, destroy it immediately" rule belonging to the "state based effects rules". 05:17:41 An object could have a rule or rulebook belonging to it. 05:18:56 Such as, a static ability (represented by some Haskell type, possibly) belonging to something, and the static ability is a category of a rule, belonging to it, that means when calculating the power of a creature, if that creature is black, add 1 to the result. 05:19:07 And then it too can be called, overridden, and everything else. 05:19:56 By the way, folks in here might like this question of mine on Programmers.SE: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/99582/2107 05:20:06 Consider you have: power :: Object -> (Maybe Int) 05:20:20 zzo38: Hmm... I sort of understand the concept 05:20:31 but I would need to see a prototype or more fully-fleshed example 05:21:45 Now there is a rule belonging to something, the rule adds stuff onto this function, and the rule has to be told by the other rules when it is to be applied. 05:23:45 I can try to figure out prototypes and more fully-fleshed examples, possibly tomorrow or I have no more time today (it is 10:22 PM in my timezone). I also have the following wiki page, which I will try to type more things on, and anyone with an account can help type things. Possibly some things already there can also be adjusted: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language 05:23:50 I suspect it stops being a rule at this point 05:23:51 s/ or / if / 05:24:40 s/ or I have no more time today / in case I have no more time today / 05:26:56 Sgeo: jasonmxristos is funny 05:27:27 If you have anything else to say about it before I join again tomorrow, either type it on here (and I might review the logs, or you can tell me which UNIX timestamps they are near, etc), or type it on the wiki I mentioned, or type it on my User Talk page on esolang wiki. 05:27:38 But for now, I think I will sleep. 05:28:09 ok 05:28:13 NihilistDandy, I think he needs help 05:28:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Oops the light exploded now I cannot read the book anymore (just joking)). 05:28:53 Sgeo: DIVINE INTERVENTION 05:30:07 May the blessing of Athe be upon him. 05:39:18 NihilistDandy, please don't kill me 05:39:41 Are you directing #jesus here tangentially? 05:39:43 :D 05:43:23 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:43:48 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 05:47:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:05:02 Hussdate 06:05:26 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:11:15 Is that some sort of a silly-calendar 'date' replacement, like 'ddate'? 06:11:47 `run ddate 06:11:48 Today is Sweetmorn, the 2nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3177 06:11:55 Heh, that thing is so widespread. 06:12:07 I thought it was in coreutils 06:12:11 but I'm not entirely sure 06:12:26 htkallas@pc112:~$ dpkg-query -S `which ddate` 06:12:26 util-linux: /usr/bin/ddate 06:12:31 ah no, util-linux-ng 06:13:29 I have a vague recollection some distribution or another opted to manipulate their util-linux package to not include ddate. 06:14:22 sdate is great too, particularly because it /isn't/ a silly date replacement, but something infinitely more awesome 06:15:00 There have been "ddate should be in some other package, we don't want this sort of nonsense and idiocy on our servers -and/or- makes baby Jesus cry" bug reports in Debian every now and then. 06:15:38 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=149321 "People with more traditional moral values might not appreciate a reference to or advertisement for this movement being present on their system. -- This is significant because it can prevent such people from recommending Debian." 06:15:55 That'd be much easier to respond to if they had Slackware-type sensibilities. 06:16:12 Namely, "fuck non-necessary patches". 06:16:18 morals are just paintings on the wall 06:16:19 Oh, they actually did drop it at one point. 06:16:26 Though the Church of the Subgenius sensibilities help too. 06:17:10 util-linux 2.11z-3 "* Drop ddate. Closes: #149321, #174459, #180737"; seems it came back later on though. 06:17:33 "I for one will not stand for this. I personally use ddate, I use it in some scripts, I know other people do the same, and I know some Debian developers would be annoyed if ddate was removed. There are even programs that use ddate, e.g. freecraft and the games that use its engine." 06:18:39 Pity it's not POSIX. 06:18:45 Today is Sweetmorn,the 2nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3177 06:19:01 I guess the bot and I are on the same day, for once 06:19:20 Also, people who complain about that shouldn't see Xscreensaver. 06:19:27 Last I checked that's full of Bob. 06:19:53 $ sdate ddate 06:19:54 Today is Sweetmorn, the 2nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3159 06:19:59 interesting 06:26:33 ais523: It uses tm_yday and tm_year members; based on a quick look at the sdate sources, the septemberfy() function does not modify that. (Just tm_mon and tm_mday.) 06:26:48 ah, OK 06:27:31 Otherwise it would overflow the season; there's a while (funkychickens.day >= 73) { funkychickens.season++; funkychickens.day -= 73; } loop in ddate. 06:29:15 It is not the cleanest codebase of them all, what with lines like "wibble = snarf;" and "hastur = convert(bob, raw);". 06:29:39 time for me to go home, anyway 06:29:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:29:44 Eh, it's ddate. 06:30:06 If it were slackdate it'd have slack. But alas, it does not. 06:32:48 util-linux 2.11z-3 "Drop ddate."; util-linux 2.11z-4 "Put ddate back in, just to keep the natives quiet." 06:33:00 :D 06:49:55 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:04:44 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:59:12 elliott: it crashes my GPU <-- Hammerfight crashes X11 for me, cogs just crashes itself. 07:59:55 Aquaria crashes itself for me. 08:00:02 2011 - year of Linux on the desktop? 08:00:42 Admittedly Cogs too segfaulted at start-up, but only once. Don't know what was up with that. 08:01:24 fizzie, Aquaria being? 08:01:48 I guess it was in the #1 bundle. 08:01:57 fizzie, I'm on ATI, and catalyst. So I'm not terribly surprised stuff crashes for me 08:01:57 Which I got as part of the #2 one. 08:02:02 ah 08:02:15 fizzie, same deal with "more than average" as this time? 08:02:19 Yes. 08:02:29 They seem to have a hobbit of doing that. 08:02:37 heh 08:03:01 Someone suggested only purchasing every other bundle, to "optimize". 08:03:47 Aquaria was good. 08:04:12 I guess I should try it on the laptop; only tried desktop so far. 08:06:35 I think I have something like 15 bundle games still completely untested, sadly. 08:07:20 Aquaria was good. <-- what sort of game is it? 08:07:38 "Aquaria is a 2D sidescrolling action-adventure computer game" 08:07:42 Someone suggested only purchasing every other bundle, to "optimize". <-- I was thinking about that just before you said it, but the frozenbyte one breaks the pattern 08:08:00 fizzie, btw I found that steelstorm one quite fun 08:08:08 I don't normally like that sort of game 08:08:33 Vorpal: Well, given that the two-in-one deals require above-average prices, the most optimal way (moneywise, I mean) would probably to get each bundle separately and pay $0.01 for each. 08:09:08 fizzie, actually they gave it to everyone who got it before they announced the above-average this time. 08:09:11 iirc 08:09:30 at least I heard so from a friend who got it on day 1, but was below average. 08:09:39 (personally I was above average) 08:10:14 fizzie, tried And Yet It Moves? 08:10:19 it is really great 08:10:58 AYIM was all "can't find a suitable OpenGL visual" on both of the two computers I tried it on. But according to the forums it's a known bug, and there's a fixed build already in beta-testing. 08:11:04 fizzie, oh 08:11:28 http://andyetitmoves.net/forum/index.php?topic=162.0 08:11:46 fizzie, btw do we indie bundle buyers get future updates to things like VVVVV and AYIM? 08:12:09 fizzie, I don't get any sound in crayon physics for example 08:12:51 No clue. I would sort-of assume that they update the bundle download page packages, but perhaps not quite immediately. 08:13:15 ah 08:13:27 But that was just a guess. 08:13:50 also I have to say braid was bloody good 08:16:37 I liked the game, but I recall getting a bit of a "pretentious asshole" feel from something the author had written. Still, that was easy enough to ignore. 08:16:52 Also (like others have commented) it's not very replayable after going through it once. 08:17:08 -!- choochter has joined. 08:17:28 -!- teuchter has joined. 08:21:12 fizzie, that is true 08:21:44 Not sure I can think of any very replayable platformers though. 08:22:08 fizzie, hm randomised platformer maps? 08:22:14 never seen that 08:22:19 but I guess it could work 08:22:50 Level design is hard enough for humans; getting something that's both fun and challenging out of rand() might be slightly difficult. 08:23:01 I don't think I've seen it done either. 08:23:24 http://www.supermariobrothers.org/infinite-mario.html 08:24:04 Deewiant, it is flash, can't play it. Is it any good? 08:24:46 http://www.mojang.com/notch/mario/ is Java 08:25:18 java in browser, might work in appletviewer I guess 08:25:49 loads in appletviewer, input broken 08:25:50 Deewiant: I think I saw that; also have seen one of those mario AIs been tested against random levels. 08:25:54 guess I'll check another day 08:26:10 bbl, several hours 08:33:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:34:18 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:40:21 The best approach to take with a procedural platformer would be to take challenges, jumps, enemy placements and so on that are known to work and string them together 08:40:29 Kind of like the infinite mode in megaman 10 but more flexible? 08:49:55 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:50:07 -!- teuchter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:50:45 -!- choochter has joined. 08:50:55 -!- teuchter has joined. 09:00:59 -!- teuchter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 09:07:06 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: sleep). 09:10:01 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:14:19 anyone know if XQuery's "return" is similar to Python's "yield"? 09:26:00 -!- myndzi has joined. 09:26:31 I don't think it's quite as generic as a Python generator, but somewhat similar, yes; the other parts define a stream of values-for-the-variables, and then the "return" expression is evaluated for each set of values, and the result is a sequence of those. (Disclaimer: never actually *used* XQuery for reals.) 09:30:31 -!- FireyFly has joined. 09:33:57 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 09:35:04 -!- FireyFly has quit (Client Quit). 09:35:14 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:35:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:38:36 -!- FireyFly has joined. 09:42:02 -!- myndzi has joined. 09:45:09 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:47:21 Um. 09:47:26 Why arn't generators in Python callable? 09:48:22 !python exec "def generator():\n\twhile True:\n\t\tyield 1\ngen=generator()\nprint gen.next()" 09:48:24 1 09:48:29 !python exec "def generator():\n\twhile True:\n\t\tyield 1\ngen=generator()\nprint gen()" 09:48:30 Traceback (most recent call last): 09:50:33 Maybe they just assume you'll always be using them in places such as for loops where the generator interface (.next()) is used implicitly. 09:51:31 fizzie: you can use them in infinite loops as well 09:51:41 you can also pass things back and forth between them after you start them 09:54:37 Can you write coroutines with generators? 09:55:07 Lymee: not quite 09:55:20 it depends on your definition of coroutines 09:55:41 you might be able to get something similar 09:58:19 Google finds at least one wrapper class that wraps a generator object into a class so that "foo()" does "foo.next()" and "foo(x)" does "foo.send(x)". 09:59:35 (So seems that other people have also wanted that sort of syntactic sugar.) 10:00:20 yeah, that is pretty cool 10:04:03 I think changing it now might break people's generators that have something for () already? 10:04:16 unless a new () implementation shadowed the default generator one 10:05:33 I don't think a generator can currently have anything for (), since you can't stick a __call__ attribute into the generator object. (That's why the wrapper class provides a separate class instead of mungling the generator.) 10:05:51 aah, ok 10:05:52 then why not do it? 10:06:20 I'm actually a bit surprised there doesn't seem to be a PEP for it. 10:06:32 Perhaps people just don't mind the .next/.send method names so much? 10:12:51 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:13:02 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 10:15:33 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:25:37 -!- cheater_ has joined. 10:28:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 10:29:57 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:42:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:42:58 -!- cheater_ has joined. 10:44:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:44:39 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:34:37 -!- cheater_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 11:35:08 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:43:10 Meinaa nukahtaa. 11:58:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:00:23 I go to bed an hour and a half earlier than normal and I get up an hour later. 12:00:39 IT'S NOT MEANT TO WORK THAT WAY 12:20:12 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:33:48 -!- aloril has joined. 12:36:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:07:02 Phantom_Hoover: Sleep works in ~3-hour cycles. If your sleeping time presented an ideal wakeup time before, then your choices were to either wake up ~1.5 hours earlier or ~1.5 hours later. Since one factor in when we wake up is our environment (i.e. how light it is), you probably weren't inclined to choose the earlier. But waking up at your normal time was never an option. 13:42:02 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 13:47:40 -!- burned has left. 13:55:29 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 14:03:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:07:50 -!- lament has joined. 14:14:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 14:19:10 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 14:27:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:05:42 -!- itidus20 has joined. 15:19:36 Suggestion for a simple X window manager which needs only the left mouse button? 15:19:50 (And has a menu) 15:19:58 (And is not twm :P ) 15:37:11 Oh, sure, be anti-tiling. 15:40:59 -!- jcp|1 has joined. 15:42:12 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:42:48 Suggestion for a simple X window manager which needs only the left mouse button? 15:42:56 -!- jcp|other has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:43:01 What X window manager *do* you need the right mouse button for? 15:46:34 -!- jcp has joined. 15:46:55 Oh, sure, be anti-tiling. 15:47:00 twm... isn't tiling? 15:49:40 I prefer the fruit-based metaphor 15:49:46 I have irssi displaying on a pear. 15:50:00 in one of my many fruit baskets. 15:51:19 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:52:18 Phantom_Hoover: "has a menu" is fairly anti-tiling though. 15:54:51 -!- derrik has joined. 15:57:50 -!- elliott has joined. 16:21:02 Phantom_Hoover: Many of the desktop-menu ones need the right mouse button to access the menu 16:24:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of chloride, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 16:29:02 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:34:01 05:15:42: zzo38: you would like a man who goes by the nick betta_y_omega 16:34:01 05:17:14: very much into difficult existential observations, just as you seem to be. 16:34:03 oh my god 16:34:22 * elliott wipes tears from eyes 16:35:27 WTF, VVVVVV 16:35:39 Why 16:35:40 Phantom_Hoover, what? 16:35:45 Is there a giant crying elephant 16:35:58 (No, I am not Satan) 16:36:09 -!- Taneb_ has joined. 16:36:17 05:19:56: By the way, folks in here might like this question of mine on Programmers.SE: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/99582/2107 16:36:17 i assumed you were linking this as a stupid question before i read the rest of the line 16:36:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:36:37 -!- Taneb_ has changed nick to Taneb. 16:36:44 "But there seems to be a broad consensus that Lisp represents the theoretical pinnacle of programming language design." 16:36:46 ahahahahauaihuifkjgfdjdkfg 16:36:51 "Which I guess amounts to questioning whether the lambda calculus is in fact the ideal abstraction of computation." 16:36:58 Someone cites Clojure as being better. 16:37:02 yes Lisp is definitely the closest possible language to the lambda calculus 16:37:12 this is the stupidest question i've ever read good lord 16:37:35 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if, just maybe, liking Clojure is not grounds for immediate hatred. 16:37:51 Phantom_Hoover: The guy behind Arcane Sentiment likes Clojure well enough, so it isn't 16:37:52 . 16:37:58 Try not to be a Stanislav. 16:38:12 elliott, but... you know what happened when I talked to the Clojurians. 16:38:29 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, so the IRC channel is of especially bad quality. 16:39:01 Rich Hickey seems intelligent enough; I remember looking into Clojure when he announced it on reddit years ago. 16:39:11 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:40:50 Best automated customer support line ever. It's open only until 6pm for June-August, but the recently mailed letter didn't say so. Calling the number gives a recording which requests an account number and a personal passcode, and says "if you don't have a passcode, you can order it by calling [the same number I'm calling to]", and nowhere in the recording does it bother to mention that all their humans have left the building already. 16:41:22 At least the website does list the summer opening hours. 16:41:47 So what's wrong with Clojure? 16:42:04 08:13:50: also I have to say braid was bloody good 16:42:04 08:16:37: I liked the game, but I recall getting a bit of a "pretentious asshole" feel from something the author had written. Still, that was easy enough to ignore. 16:42:15 also, more importantly I guess, what makes appreciation of a language a fault in character. 16:42:24 fizzie: I had this feeling that he was that type, but it was the "abstraction is totally bad, doods" programming talk he gave that made me start my seething rage subprocess. 16:42:32 (Also known as: the process that dominates my system.) 16:42:44 CakeProphet: You'd talk to a PHP fan? 16:42:48 CakeProphet, the time I went into the IRC channel I spent ages trying to overcome the consensus that O(log_32(n)) == O(ln n)/ 16:42:48 elliott: dynamic typing = pinnacle of programming language design 16:42:54 elliott: sure. I don't agree though. 16:43:06 CakeProphet: See, you're CakeProphet, so I don't know whether you're joking or being serious. 16:43:08 Please clarify. 16:43:20 Phantom_Hoover: =/=, surely. 16:43:28 Oh, duh. 16:43:37 elliott: first statement was serious. second was serious. 16:43:44 ...er first statement was joking. :P 16:43:53 CakeProphet: Sorry you're already on /ignore :-P 16:43:59 FOREVEVR 16:44:03 Also I can't type. 16:45:27 13:07:02: Phantom_Hoover: Sleep works in ~3-hour cycles. If your sleeping time presented an ideal wakeup time before, then your choices were to either wake up ~1.5 hours earlier or ~1.5 hours later. Since one factor in when we wake up is our environment (i.e. how light it is), you probably weren't inclined to choose the earlier. But waking up at your normal time was never an option. 16:45:39 Gregor: Citation? I've never heard this but I should probably pay attention if it's true/ 16:45:39 . 16:45:59 I'm slightly sceptical that sleep is aligned to 3-hour periods. 16:46:06 I mean, what's the alignment held by? 16:46:47 Weeeell, there is the circadian rhythm body clock crap, so it /could/ be true, but I'm gonna hold out on a citation. 16:46:48 Phantom_Hoover: You can add __attribute__ ((aligned (1))) to your sleep to get unaligned sleep. 16:50:54 I mean, what's the alignment held by? <-- those radio clock signals. Yet another reason for a tinfoil hat 16:51:46 elliott, I seem to remember hearing about a 3 hour cycle thingy when sleeping, never heard anything about it being aligned to anything in specific 16:52:05 Sounds like pop science bull to me, at least at first glance 16:52:21 the thing is 16:52:42 um 16:54:17 ok just to put things into perspective, say what you will of my next statement but the science of sleep will be used by evil people 16:55:01 its like, just imagine if you can set off an atomic bomb inside someones mind 16:55:11 metaphorically 16:55:33 psychology is probably looking for the great mental nuke 16:55:34 Will we have......... 16:55:49 Sleep schedule bombs 16:55:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Physiology <-- "In humans, each sleep cycle lasts from 90 to 110 minutes on average." 16:56:02 hm doesn't really fit 3 hours 16:56:03 at all 16:56:37 control over our minds and our thoughts requires some degree of harmony with the environment around us 16:57:06 And the use of quantum mechanics to prove that our minds are not material? 16:57:25 ^^indicator that I think this is going into pseudoscience territory 16:57:49 they apparently don't know exactly what triggers sleep yet 16:57:56 No, as the official science consultant I say it's fine. 16:57:56 or if they do they're keeping awfully quiet about it 16:58:00 thunderstorm, bbl 16:58:26 Lightning strike, lightning strike, lightning strike. 16:58:33 it seems like to me its a kind of distributed defence against an external force controlling ones sleep 16:58:53 distributing the causes of sleep widely 16:59:42 for the 1% benefit of this control, is 99% disaster 16:59:49 death causes sleep 17:00:24 death is a mystery too right? 17:00:32 Yes. 17:00:44 We have no idea what causes it. 17:00:45 the eidetic reduction of sleep and death remain elusive 17:01:02 life begats deaths. 17:01:06 Isn't eidetic a thing with your memory? 17:01:31 eidetic reduction is a thing i stumbled on in a wiki page once... you guys probably know it by a better name 17:01:33 "eidetic reduction, in phenomenology, a method by which the philosopher moves from the consciousness of individual and concrete objects to the transempirical realm of pure essences and thus achieves an intuition of the eidos (Greek: “shape”) of a thing" 17:01:34 Phantom_Hoover: It's a kind of cheese. 17:01:37 Oh, makes sense now. 17:01:45 It's just pretentious bullshit. 17:01:50 Transempirical. 17:01:51 Best word. 17:02:13 java interfaces. 17:02:16 are eidetic. 17:02:25 You can put trans- or quasi- in front of any desirable adjective and immediately you can use it for anything. 17:02:28 I think it's like asking "What _is_ a chair, and chairness"? 17:02:42 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to WhatIsAChair. 17:02:46 Quasieidetic. 17:02:47 i think its related to parameterization 17:02:48 The answer is transquasichairness 17:02:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:02:58 itidus20: Traansparameterisation 17:03:00 itidus20, *metaparameterisation 17:03:06 Quasimetatransparameterisation. 17:03:16 even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious 17:03:22 parameterization is much of a nicer word 17:03:29 *supratrocious 17:03:43 itidus20, *circumnicer 17:03:44 if you say it loud enough you'll always sound quasimetatransprecocious 17:03:53 quasimetatranscircumparameterisation 17:04:06 elliott, you forgot supra. 17:04:23 Phantom_Hoover: You just don't understand ologyology. 17:04:23 people use big words around me.. i go on wiki.. find a few new big words.. im just an agent of these words 17:04:34 itidus20: the words are controlling you 17:04:49 the words call me to a higher existence. 17:04:56 I do their will as it is my own. 17:05:07 is anything more powerful than quasimetatranscircumparameterisation 17:05:11 (in this joke quasimetatranscircumparameterisation stands in for lisp) 17:05:34 itidus20, your knowledge is measured by the length of the words it's expressed in, after all. 17:05:40 in other words.. 17:05:44 what i meant to say was 17:06:05 superextraintersubquasimetatranscircumparameterisation 17:06:31 * itidus20 stops. Backs up a second. Sometimes I try to squeeze what i'm trying to say into some obscure word which doesn't mean what I want it to mean. 17:06:58 *contramean 17:07:42 The minimal state of things which makes something go from being awake to asleep.. alive to dead 17:08:06 minimal as in minimal *shrugs shoulders* 17:09:31 *iridiminimal 17:09:31 (iridi- is not a real prefix, I just made it up and it probably means rainbows.) 17:09:44 we know that chopping off the head of an animal with a head will usually kill it 17:11:07 which could be related to destroying the circulatory and respitory systems 17:11:16 So you're saying that going to sleep is basically having your head chopped off? 17:11:40 But then does saying something make it true? :3 17:11:45 Also it's nothing to do with either, it's because life is more or less defined in terms of brain activity and decapitation removes the energy supply to the brain. 17:11:46 * CakeProphet sits in his armchair. 17:11:52 CakeProphet, AHA I KNEW YOU WERE LYMEE ALL ALONG 17:11:56 i know giving someone tranquilizers is likely to put them to sleep 17:12:00 Phantom_Hoover: AHA SO PLANTS ARE DEAD 17:12:07 plants don't die easy 17:12:18 heheheh 17:12:22 elliott, well OK among things that have a brain it is. 17:12:29 Phantom_Hoover: That's brainism. 17:12:33 plants are resilient motherfuckers 17:12:48 Phantom_Hoover: what gave it away? 17:12:54 Phantom_Hoover: also, what? 17:13:08 Because the brain is almost always the central control system so removing it breaks all the rest sooner or later. 17:13:34 Also because the supply systems to it are so integral that their removal disrupts the whole network. 17:13:49 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=661719 17:13:51 Gregor....................... 17:13:58 not nice to discriminate against non-brainers 17:14:01 death is absence of what constitutes life in something that once had it. 17:14:26 well... the idea of a human living without a brain freaks us all out massively 17:14:49 related to the zombie fear 17:15:14 even zombies have brains right.. skeletons don't though 17:15:32 itidus20, no it doesn't, it's a regular occurence. 17:16:09 elliott: Brendan made me do it! 17:16:31 Gregor: You're in the habit of listening to the kind of person who does things like invent JavaScript? 17:16:51 Gregor: (I was googling JSMIPS because I want to figure out how MIPS works without doing any actual work.) 17:17:27 elliott: It was at a talk at Mozilla :P 17:17:43 "Ashton Kutcher has publicly stated that he is afraid of his wife Demi Moore's collection of dolls, having grown-up watching Child's Play as a kid." 17:17:44 Gregor: If Eich told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?????????????????????? 17:17:52 Gregor: If Eich told you to use IE would you do it????????????? 17:17:53 I think we should do away with all programming languages because elliott doesn't like any of them. 17:18:11 CakeProphet: True statements: I am always serious all the time and mocking JavaScript is unreasonable. 17:18:14 WAIT, by true I mean false. 17:18:31 elliott: you know what would be a cool graph? "If X told Y to jump off a cliff, would they do it?" 17:18:42 CakeProphet, also he likes languages that don't exist because he hasn't had time to hate them. 17:18:58 the fact is that some instances hte answer is yes 17:19:07 its a balancing factor in the power dynamics of the world 17:19:33 Gregor: Look at these posers: https://github.com/Esteth/JSMips 17:19:39 CoffeeScript: SO NOT JAVASCRIPT??? 17:19:44 Does "power dynamics" and "balancing factor" actually represent anything in the real world? 17:19:53 it would be false for all X that can't jump off of cliffs. 17:20:00 Well, ok, "power dynamics" does, I guess, but "balancing factor"? 17:20:06 which becomes ambiguous if we interpret the sentence metaphorically. 17:20:07 CakeProphet: well thats a start 17:20:12 can a marriage jump off of a cliff? 17:20:13 WhatIsAChair, try not to know the mind of itidus. 17:20:30 CakeProphet: i was thinking of humans :P 17:20:30 CakeProphet, yes, if the wedding is on a giant robot 17:20:37 ah, but a marriage can't be told things. 17:20:42 * WhatIsAChair wonders what would happen if itidus20 was in #jesus 17:20:49 Would there be an explosion? 17:20:51 WhatIsAChair, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE 17:20:52 Gregor: BTW, any citation on that three-hour sleep remark? 17:20:53 and.. also.. presuming that this statement can be translated into any language 17:20:56 * CakeProphet joins #jesus 17:21:13 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 17:21:36 yeah, people love to use the cliff jumper statement casually.. but it has meaning 17:22:09 X is likely to be percieved by Y as an authority figure 17:22:21 or else why would Y be listening to X at all 17:22:21 Add immediateaddi $t,$s,C$t = $s + C (signed) 17:22:22 Add immediate unsignedaddiu $t,$s,C$t = $s + C (signed) 17:22:26 Uhh, surely "C (unsigned)"...? 17:22:41 If Y is unassertive, then Y will percieve a larger set X 17:22:48 I would say 17:22:57 See, clearly Gregor's problems are because he coded his emulator based on Wikipedia. 17:23:04 elliott: Nope, it's probably just a folk tale :P 17:23:23 Milgram wondered about this. 17:23:35 If Milgram asked you to shock a guy, would you? 17:23:36 I guess it could do an /unsigned/ add with a /signed/ constant 17:23:40 But would that even mean anyting 17:23:41 anything 17:24:06 It's sort of related... only a little bit 17:24:23 itidus20, please join #jesus pleeeaaaaasssseeee. 17:24:50 itidus20: Additionally, your presence is requested in #jesus. 17:24:59 #jesus was created by the large hadron collider 17:25:07 I... 17:25:16 itidus20, yes please look at it and find out more. 17:25:25 i fear i would never escape 17:25:29 NihilistDandy: WhatIsAChair 17:25:30 Phantom_Hoover: 17:25:30 I AM 17:25:32 A DIFFERENT 17:25:33 PERSON 17:25:33 OK 17:25:34 ONE OF US 17:25:35 OBVIOUSLY 17:25:36 ONE OF US 17:26:33 nah.. i don't like to go to a room and pick fights 17:26:51 itidus20, we don't want fights. 17:27:00 Fights are the exact opposite of what we want. 17:27:02 We just want you 17:27:05 We want actual discussion. 17:27:05 baby 17:27:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:27:36 -!- WhatIsAChair has changed nick to Sgeo. 17:29:12 I seek the one true language. 17:29:12 im going off topic anyway.. 17:29:20 >going 17:29:21 ill simmer down 17:29:33 -!- boily has joined. 17:34:37 Due to the lack of QUIT commands in the log file, it makes it difficult to use AWK and stuff to check for things I might want to check for. Can Gregor correct this? 17:34:47 use the raw logs 17:36:37 also Perl. 17:36:51 Phantom_Hoover: the trick is that i keep fuelling my steam engine... so that i don't have to force myself into a rant... but that my environment draws a rant out of me. that is how i like it 17:37:59 itidus20, are you a 300-pound matronly freight train. 17:38:11 it is like uh... you can drill anywhere deep enough and create a lava pool ya know 17:38:19 the lava is always waiting for the drill 17:39:29 yeah ive got issues 17:40:31 The lava... isn't *waiting* for the drill. 17:40:36 It's just *there*. 17:41:17 elliott: That doesn't help 17:41:34 zzo38: you can get raw logs for the whole day 17:41:36 that includes all channels 17:41:38 those include QUIT 17:41:40 humm 17:41:47 reification fallacy 17:41:55 good show 17:42:17 elliott, it really should log those things in the formatted logs, though. 17:42:26 It should. 17:42:26 i need to learn my fallacies. 17:42:32 elliott: OK. Yes, those ones do. But the individual channell logs do not. I think I understand why, although I think it should be corrected anyways. 17:43:06 itidus20, memorising fallacies won't make you think logically. 17:43:11 Learning to think logically will. 17:43:20 humm 17:43:25 ok 17:43:37 I think logically all the time. 17:43:42 lol 17:44:01 so does elliott. 17:44:12 it is true 17:44:25 elliott and I are quite alike. 17:44:38 Phantom_Hoover: I am talking about unformatted logs 17:44:44 I like bears. I want a programming language with bears. 17:44:52 and forests of grazing deer. 17:45:13 CakeProphet: Then invent one in esolang wiki. 17:45:22 yes I'm thinking about it. 17:47:31 I think that inventing a language is an art. 17:47:55 it would be interesting to simulate an ecosystem as a programming model\. 17:48:12 where life acts as code and data. 17:49:51 you already have a PC... and the CPU already has as many instructions as it will ever have.. so that tells us a language is not about making a PC do low level things that it couldn't do before 17:49:57 Sgeo: ahahaha did luke-jr really just 17:50:07 itidus20: sure. 17:50:16 it's the means of expression that is important. 17:50:21 elliott, he considers all non-Catholics to be heretics 17:50:26 i know 17:50:26 but 17:50:27 glorious 17:50:35 CakeProphet: i wish my statement could be perfect.. but it is useless empty words 17:50:47 it collapses under its own weight 17:50:50 elliott, and the current Papacy too 17:51:16 Sgeo: oh 17:51:17 really 17:51:26 itidus20: nah it's just not detailed. abstract thought doesn't really have to be very specific to be helpful or constructive. 17:51:41 Prayer: The same thing as meditation. 17:51:55 I like the fact that the Christians in #jesus evidently hate each other as much as anyone else. 17:52:16 ....pwnted. 17:52:20 that word is not allowed. 17:52:22 Phantom_Hoover: the problem with #jesus is that they let atheists who are open about it in 17:52:32 Phantom_Hoover: and they ruin the atmosphere :( 17:52:38 CakeProphet: so.. standard libraries... they get connected to languages 17:52:45 in practice they may infact be a part of the language 17:52:48 I did try /msging one of those people. 17:53:09 the... guy with japan in his name was particularly bad 17:53:13 And another who may have just been a sane Christian; he called me a troll and /ignored me. 17:53:29 Which is completely unfair, since I'm not trolling anyone and never have. 17:53:29 Phantom_Hoover, who? 17:53:35 Cheery, IIRC. 17:53:40 huh 17:53:43 Cheery has been in here 17:53:44 I think 17:53:49 Hmm, that name only rings the faintest of bells 17:53:51 yep 17:53:53 it's that guy 17:53:54 I'm just gently leading them along the path they're going along. 17:53:55 the .cockfile guy 17:53:56 `quote cock 17:53:59 57) ??? Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? Or are there monster dildos and cocks? Or are both the dildos and cocks monster? \ 299) The context is Gracenotes releasing an illegal copy of a film about monster cock dildos. \ 391) [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got 17:54:02 `quote cockfile 17:54:03 391) [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed 17:54:07 yes, they can be defined by the language or built-in to the runtime 17:54:15 itidus20: ^ 17:54:23 well they extend what the human can do at least 17:54:27 Sgeo, hang on, it was after I turned on XChat logs. 17:54:30 I'll check them. 17:54:43 which defeats my first comment 17:54:50 hmm? 17:55:02 hummm 17:55:55 Sgeo, it was char|ie. 17:56:03 so you have the very lowest level supplied to you.. the asm/machine language level.. that is a given.. video, audio, keyboard, disk I/O, RAM.. also a given 17:56:14 Phantom_Hoover, that name also rings a faint bell 17:56:24 Sgeo: hmm, wait, does pthing identify as christian in hash-jesus? 17:56:34 elliott, I think so 17:56:53 hmm 17:57:02 but the CPU isn't really aware of all the other hardware 17:57:13 well, the only thing that is aware is the human.... 17:57:16 oops im using wrong words again 17:57:31 Thought he identifies as no such thing in #not-math 17:58:13 CPU doesn't have many (if any) instructions for dealing with the various hardware 17:58:40 all the instructions revolve around the registers and ram 17:58:56 Sgeo> Pthing, do you identify as Christian? 17:58:56 of course 17:59:16 it has the ports and interrupts but it doesn't really go further than that.. 17:59:30 how would they feel about a Discordian, I wonder? 17:59:42 Sgeo: identifying as christian in hash-jesus doesn't make one christian, naturally 17:59:45 itidus20: There exists precisely one builtin API for dealing with the hardware on common PC systems. 17:59:49 itidus20, funny, it has more than enough instructions to. 17:59:51 itidus20: BIOS. And it sucks. 18:00:05 Okay, I suppose ACPI too. And it sucks harder. 18:00:31 What's the XChat command for NUL? 18:00:49 whats ACPI about? 18:01:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 18:01:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:01:21 C'mon guys I'm counting on you 18:01:23 This: http://i.imgur.com/k8zrC.jpg 18:01:44 itidus20: ACPI is about various forms of power management. 18:01:49 ok 18:01:52 It is also one of the dozen or so ways of shutting off a PC. 18:01:54 wasn't sure 18:02:12 Helo. 18:02:15 do most standard libs use BIOS? or do any reimplement BIOS? 18:02:16 he,ia,el 18:02:17 , 18:02:19 OK, that's not it. 18:02:26 or is it inefficient to reimplement BIOS? 18:02:27 Phantom_Hoover: just paste in a NUL, dude 18:02:30 if your clipboard can handle it 18:02:35 xchat might not even be able to 18:02:36 because gtk 18:02:42 itidus20: No, the BIOS sucks so damned much that it's utterly ignored by the time you're in 32-bit execution. 18:02:44 elliott, but I'm sure there was one! 18:02:45 Possibly sooner. 18:02:47 A usable one! 18:03:00 Phantom_Hoover: settings->advanced->keyboard shortcuts 18:03:09 It was pitiful *even on the original IBM PC*. 18:03:09 :) 18:03:24 lol CakeProphet 18:03:27 CakeProphet: boring 18:03:31 Nowadays, the BIOS is an overblown boot loader. 18:03:32 pikhq_: ok. sorry to respond to every question with an inference, but, so the BIOS is replaced by the OS APIs then? 18:03:41 ^to every reply with an inference 18:03:43 elliott: well I wasn't really going to plan anything clever. 18:03:51 itidus20: Yes. Completely and utterly replaced. 18:04:24 To the point where if they could actually remove the BIOS from memory (it's in ROM that's always mapped into physical memory space), they would. 18:04:39 And you can, in fact, remove it while the system's running to no ill effect. 18:04:43 =P 18:04:43 Every Christian swear filter IRC ban thing after http://bash.org/?178890 sucks. 18:05:27 (this, incidentally, is one of the ways of getting coreboot on a system without making it impossible to go back to the original BIOS) 18:05:52 What about that one where where luke-jr mentioned some Latin paper and got kicked for saying cum? 18:06:27 NihilistDandy: ok that was good. 18:06:34 CakeProphet: I may not categorize people based on beliefs, but that... yeah... pass me a woodchipper and that guys personals 18:06:41 I require your personal ads. 18:06:47 Due to the benefits of driver abstraction layers noone would want to reimplement API functionality except in extreme cases. 18:06:57 elliott: lol 18:07:00 For pulping 18:07:00 don't have any. 18:07:12 Meanwhile, Sgeo practices the ancient Christian tradition of self-incriminating. 18:07:20 SWP seeking cake 18:07:43 itidus20: Experience tells us that hardware manufacturers universally suck, and should never be trusted to implement code. 18:08:08 CakeProphet: * angelBot removes ban on *!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake 18:08:11 CakeProphet: Just so you know. 18:08:19 hmm... 18:09:06 CakeProphet: I have surmised that when building a language, the CPU was the wrong place for me to look. 18:09:14 itidus20: Linux has a giant swath of workarounds for things like vendor's ACPI stacks. 18:09:27 And now EFI. 18:09:47 It *really* doesn't help that their idea of "done" means "Windows boots". 18:09:48 -!- monqy has joined. 18:10:12 itidus20: why would you even start there in the first place? 18:10:49 In short: the PC architecture is terrible, the first thing anyone on bare hardware should do is abstract it out of existence. 18:10:51 because in the end the language will become a stream of machine code 18:11:21 hmm 18:11:28 or it will be the input to someone elses stream of machine code. 18:11:33 in the case of an interpreter. 18:11:49 yeah the stream analogy is very broken 18:12:01 especially if one considers threads and multicores 18:12:05 elliott: This should frighten you, but every single OS in use abstracts most the hardware nearly out of existence. 18:12:24 pikhq_: good to know 18:12:30 (misping?) 18:13:19 CakeProphet: i am looking at the givens. 18:13:29 elliott: More misthink. :P 18:14:13 pikhq_: yet ironically it all rests within the hardware which it abstracts 18:14:39 wjat 18:14:52 Hmm. It probably wouldn't take much effort to make Linux into a VM... 18:15:06 how much is too much 18:15:16 the hardware provides the physical space for the information space of the OS 18:15:16 pikhq_: see UML 18:15:17 Probably not worth the effort, though. 18:15:30 elliott: No, I mean in the sense of JVM. 18:16:02 No, I do not have any intent of doing this at all. 18:16:37 not that that bothers me, but is definitely not appropriate for clicking by any other than the target 18:16:42 Sgeo: please offer to link it directly to CakeProphet 18:16:44 and/or Phantom_Hoover 18:16:47 it is your duty as a good person 18:17:03 lolwhat 18:17:17 CakeProphet: I have an awesome .gif for responding to uncalled for douchery, but it contains unwholesome language :( 18:17:28 wow they're so easy to offend. 18:17:38 CakeProphet: also you're being a fuckwit. 18:17:43 is douchery an unwholesome language 18:17:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:18:09 CakeProphet: /me claps 18:19:08 darkmatter has moved me with his gif. 18:19:10 The abstract machine on which a language is implemented is likely to be no lower than the OS. 18:19:24 CakeProphet: You can't say that and then not link it. 18:19:33 itidus20: what 18:20:07 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 18:20:07 http://i.imgur.com/Fajmt.gif 18:20:08 It's apparently being passed around by Sgeo by PM 18:20:11 Sgeo: saved you the effort 18:20:24 monqy, in other words my statement is: most compilers and interpreters require an OS. 18:20:26 elliott: ...also, are you saying my mspa and bloodninja references followed by flagrant Jesus pornography was unjustified on #jesus? 18:20:41 because I disagree passionately. 18:20:47 CakeProphet: yes. if you're going to be a dick to them at least make it amusing 18:20:58 I think, in fact, it is the reason for that channel's existence. 18:21:03 I have fulfilled its purpose. 18:21:04 itidus20: that hardly makes one necessary 18:21:07 CakeProphet: Flagrant Jesus Pornography is the name of my next nonfiction book 18:21:50 elliott: my approach is not sophisticated enough for you, yes? 18:21:53 itidus20: so i don't see the relevance of your statements 18:21:55 http://marcansoft.com/transf/nandcat1.png 18:21:59 monqy: but even the people here are rarely so masochistic as to do it without one 18:22:05 > cycle "nand" 18:22:06 "nandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandnandna... 18:22:31 i wonder if the thing is a thing 18:23:06 http://i.imgur.com/Fajmt.gif 18:23:09 * Sgeo is still offended by nyan cat not appearing in the original video where it used to 18:23:11 this is the gif btw. 18:23:15 CakeProphet, yes, we know 18:23:18 a bit too later 18:23:21 monqy: to be honest i don't have any idea what can be done without an OS 18:23:25 Sgeo: ah, I thought elliott said to link it.. 18:23:30 perhaps he was talking to someone else. 18:23:32 itidus20: ok 18:23:44 itidus20: the exact same as can be done with an OS 18:23:55 * Sgeo is still offended by nyan cat not appearing in the original video where it used to 18:23:55 what 18:23:57 does one fall back on the BIOS then? 18:24:11 itidus20: no, one just uses the same code to accomplish a task as the OS does. 18:24:22 thats masochistic :D 18:24:28 so... uh.. 18:24:29 elliott, the ... bar thing 18:24:34 coding it from scratch is masochistic. 18:24:34 itidus20: and therefore impossible? 18:24:36 Sgeo: scrubber. 18:24:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:24:42 What are the haps my friends. 18:24:43 could a brainfuck interpreter be created on which an OS could be implemented? 18:24:53 with a few changes perhaps 18:24:55 Phantom_Hoover: Flagrant Jesus Pornography 18:25:06 not by the original definition of the language. 18:25:19 well... actually, yes. 18:25:33 itidus20: only if it can do everything the machine language can do, IO-wise. (please don't start CakeProphet) 18:25:48 (proof: just write out the machine code for the OS, and jump to it) 18:25:55 lol 18:25:55 I guess that isn't really IO 18:26:08 but, uhh, it's a trivial answer, but with messy definitions, so let's just ignore the question 18:26:18 yeah sounds good. 18:26:37 it would be kinda cool though 18:27:11 what about taking minix and translating it into BF 18:27:23 why? 18:27:25 an extended BF which can do what is necesary 18:27:50 afk 18:27:57 itidus20, extended BF. 18:28:08 you could use BF as an OS, but not alone. 18:28:09 There's an idea which has spawned countless fell things. 18:28:19 Phantom_Hoover: DF addiction detected. 18:28:22 what i mean by afk is 18:28:31 i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead 18:28:37 elliott, oh FFS it's a perfectly cromulent word. 18:28:54 Phantom_Hoover: Which Humble Bundle game should I try first. 18:28:58 `addquote what i mean by afk is i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead 18:28:59 572) what i mean by afk is i can see how dumb it is.. ill make a coffe instead 18:29:08 your mom is germane here, I think. 18:29:25 elliott, I went for Braid, TbH. 18:29:35 Because the concept interested me and I'd already looked at it. 18:29:41 But you already have it sooo.... 18:29:53 `quote 18:29:54 8) TODO: sex life 18:30:10 Phantom_Hoover: I don't. I haven't played any of the previous bundle games. 18:30:14 I'm bad at life. 18:30:17 :'( 18:30:28 I've got mad life-skills. 18:30:42 im baddest 18:30:51 I randomly click squares and then they explode. 18:31:01 i don't even do that 18:31:02 no need for gliders and shit. 18:31:36 Braid++ 18:31:51 yeah let's just increment everything. 18:32:12 i dont beleive in incremetn 18:32:15 ++C++ 18:32:27 ++C-- 18:33:39 bf+[+] 18:33:41 --n 18:33:41 Sgeo, I still find Braid slightly insane. 18:34:17 insane? 18:34:42 Some of the levels seem... impossible. 18:34:47 Getting all the damn puzzle pieces is such a shore 18:34:48 *chore 18:34:49 Or more accurately some of the puzzle pieces. 18:34:51 Yeah. 18:34:56 I went to work to get that one 18:34:59 You know the one 18:35:14 When I came back I spent a half hour rewinding just to get on that fucking cloud 18:35:46 Like, it's not just a matter of precision, I can see no way at all it's possible based on the data available about the level. 18:36:45 Phantom_Hoover, one of the early ones? 18:36:49 NihilistDandy, that's a star 18:36:52 Not a puzzle piece 18:37:15 Or, wait, are you talking about something else? 18:37:23 I've forgotten 18:37:27 It was forever ago 18:37:34 It might be a star 18:37:38 Probably is 18:38:39 -!- nooga has joined. 18:38:49 Hmm. 18:39:23 Sgeo, tonnes of them. 18:39:29 CakeProphet: i just had an idea 18:39:38 dun dun dunnn 18:39:53 wuzzat? 18:39:55 puzzle game based on life. (i suppose like everything under the sun it has already been done) 18:40:18 life the game or... the game of life... or life the... life? 18:40:31 you would get a finite set of live cell chips.. and a pre-layed out board.. and you have to position those chips to bring about a certain event 18:40:32 GoL, I suspect. 18:40:48 Everyone who's heard of it has thought "what if I made it into..... A REAL GAME" 18:40:53 and then you proceed to the next stage 18:40:53 itidus20, it doesn't work out. 18:40:59 why not? 18:41:01 Life constructions are waaaaay too fragile. 18:41:27 The most resilient can asymptotically resist less than half the gliders fired at it IIRC. 18:41:43 Phantom_Hoover, is there a proof of that? 18:41:50 Phantom_Hoover: Just stack an infinite number of them together PERFECTION. 18:41:59 well the idea would be to say, for each stage, make the level turn to all dead cells 18:42:09 with a finite pile of live cells 18:42:14 Sgeo, fine, the most resilient known. 18:42:16 itidus20: That's really hard 18:42:23 It's a chain of eater 2s. 18:42:25 so you would have very simple puzzles 18:42:27 Depending on the size of the pile, and the layout 18:42:39 *double-sided eater 2s 18:43:21 it could be you have to place all the cells in one go 18:43:27 and watch to see if it works 18:43:50 itidus20: That sounds exactly like GoL, but with goals 18:44:21 the goal of reducing it to all dead cells seems the most workable 18:46:40 It's not. 18:46:51 Engineering in Life is a very sterile process. 18:47:30 Putting everything behind an ash shield is more or less the only way to stop it exploding from stray gliders, and then how do you interact with the outside world? 18:47:36 Phantom_Hoover: help what do you prescribe for someone who read the latest Dinosaur Comic and now can't stop laughing. 18:48:17 acid. 18:48:34 oh wait you want to fix that. 18:48:43 Still acid 18:48:44 Hmm, I wonder whether I should make this GPipe change the overly-general way or the ugly way. 18:49:25 why are you even asking that question when you already know the answer? 18:49:41 ah no question mark. SLY DOG. 18:49:44 Well the former would have a runtime speed penalty, I think. 18:50:11 no way to have both? 18:50:22 have the ugly way as a special case? 18:50:27 Both the ugliness and the speed penalty. 18:50:43 CakeProphet: No real way to overcome typeclass overhead. 18:50:54 Phantom_Hoover: you're right. mathematical games and john nash games do not deserve to be video games. 18:50:57 isn't there like a specialize pragma or something? 18:50:58 special cases suck, should die 18:51:19 CakeProphet: It... wouldn't work here. 18:53:01 elliott: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2015 18:53:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:53:07 Is my prescription 18:53:17 That one isn't as good. 18:54:04 esoteric religions have never been as popular as exoteric ones 18:54:05 they're harder work 18:54:12 story of our lives 18:55:06 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: bedtime). 18:58:10 -!- nooga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:58:59 oh i wonder if 19:01:00 If I could make days last forever. If would could make wishes come true. 19:01:13 I'd save every day like a tresure and then, again, I would spend them with you. 19:01:22 ^words 19:01:30 (cut and paste) 19:01:32 sort of 19:06:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:06:33 -!- pumpkin has joined. 19:06:46 elliott: are you giving out free thetan measurements 19:06:57 or how about lambdans 19:07:05 taxfree thetans 19:07:14 itidus20, sit down while i measure your lambdans 19:07:27 wow. that was funny on so many levels :D 19:07:43 please hold the two ends of this Y combinator 19:09:01 doesn't seem like your lambdan levels are so high itidus20, do you feel adequately functional? 19:09:23 well... i have a bad sleeping pattern 19:09:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:09:33 oh, no 19:09:38 what is it? 19:09:44 indeed, that can have to do with low lambdan levels 19:10:00 have you noticed other people acting imperative around you? 19:10:15 yeah people are full of requests and demands 19:10:55 that's exactly what i'm talking about. 19:11:08 we have established quite a rapport 19:11:24 would you like to live a life without side-effects, where everything is a functor? 19:11:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:12:21 yes and no 19:12:45 cheater_, shut up. 19:12:45 join the Haskell Religion. You start out in the () typeclass, but soon you'll be able to perform monadic actions! 19:13:01 lol. 19:13:12 im too passive. its not cheaters fault 19:13:33 cheater killed me and that is his fault 19:13:37 cheater is cheater's fault though 19:13:45 :t foldl ap 19:13:46 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = a -> b 19:13:46 Expected type: m (a -> b) 19:13:47 Inferred type: m b 19:13:48 cheater ate my cat. 19:13:58 :t foldl (flip ap) 19:13:59 forall (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => m b -> [m (b -> b)] -> m b 19:14:04 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:14:26 cheater_: i downloaded hugs and an ebook.. but i got sidetracked 19:14:34 -!- azaq23 has joined. 19:14:45 and the side of the track has much less friction than the gravel 19:14:56 ugh, hugs 19:15:00 ebook 19:15:01 * itidus20 hugs. 19:15:02 what sort of 19:15:03 ebook 19:15:22 a legal one. 19:15:55 oh ill be more specific 19:15:56 itidus20, that's no good. 19:15:58 does it have a name 19:16:00 `quote e-reader 19:16:01 No output. 19:16:10 `quote E-reader 19:16:11 No output. 19:16:15 `quote ereader 19:16:16 No output. 19:16:20 Oh FFS. 19:16:23 `quote suffering 19:16:25 547) Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers. 19:16:29 Yet Another Haskell Tutorial by Hal Daume III 19:16:47 why not read LYAH or RWH? 19:16:50 itidus20: Get LYAH 19:17:02 I told him about LYAH. 19:17:03 I have it in every electronic format 19:17:04 im not a mathematician. this book is actually up my alley 19:17:13 And one paper one 19:17:13 what 19:17:13 LYAH is about ten times simpler than YAHT. 19:17:26 cheater_: I think you offended Phantom_Hoover's religious beliefs. 19:17:39 Download the Haskell Platform, read Learn You a Haskell, praise the Lord. 19:17:48 well, you offended /him/, not his beliefs. That would be strange. 19:18:07 Pedantic semantics <3 19:20:41 elliott, your Lambdan levels must be really high today. 19:22:09 so.. in my head I am thinking "haskell is representative of functional languages. c++ is representative of imperative languages. functional and imperative are specializations of programming languages." 19:22:21 C++ is not representative of imperative languages. 19:22:34 what is then? 19:22:50 It's hard to tell. 19:22:50 C? 19:22:53 No. 19:23:00 Visual Basic .NET? 19:23:08 is the word representative the wrong one? :D 19:23:16 don't call things representative of things 19:23:19 Maybe a modern-ish (but non-OO) Pascal. It's really hard to say because "imperative" is not really a category. 19:23:23 There is no single representative example. 19:23:35 is representativeness a fallacy? 19:23:48 Only for imperatives~ 19:23:49 * itidus20 does an air guitar solo. 19:23:50 itidus20, i'd say python is a good imperative language with functional paradigms 19:23:59 lol. 19:24:00 cheater_: Don't let #python hear you say that 19:24:08 Or anyone else, for that matter 19:24:10 banned already 19:24:13 don't care 19:24:18 Oh, so there is at least one channel with sense in this world. 19:24:23 :D 19:24:31 ok ill update my statement 19:24:45 j/k, not banned. but i don't give much crap about that place 19:24:48 they're mostly boring 19:24:53 cheater_, shut up. 19:25:03 Phantom_Hoover: you do a harsh but necessary duty. 19:25:04 "Imperative" is a far too broad category to have any really representative example... 19:25:12 so.. in my head I am thinking "haskell is an example of functional languages. pascal is an example of imperative languages. functional and imperative are specializations of programming languages." 19:25:24 And a better description of coding style than language, anyways. 19:25:28 elliott, why is C not imperative BtW? 19:25:44 Phantom_Hoover: the trouble was with the word _representative of_ 19:25:44 Phantom_Hoover: It is. 19:26:15 representative\ of could be a word 19:26:19 It's just not representative of "imperative programming" 19:26:38 cheater_: i dunno why i did that.. 19:26:43 :D 19:26:46 i knew it was wrong 19:27:07 now for stage 2 of my plan 19:27:07 itidus20, i'd say you're asking whether functional and imperative paradigms are compatible 19:27:10 If "imperative" is intended to be a descriptor of language *anyways*, it'd really only mean "strict evaluation", IME... 19:27:41 cheater_: i was stating in a long winded way that i see them as children of a common parent, namely "programming languages" 19:27:43 Which is so utterly inclusive as to be meaningless. 19:28:06 I guess procedural might be better, but it's still a wide category 19:28:14 humm 19:28:19 itidus20, i think you mean subsets rather than children in a graph 19:28:24 and those subsets are reral fuzzy 19:28:34 or feral ruzzy 19:28:38 there's no clear distinction, like in a graph, of a language being either the one or the other 19:28:47 NihilistDandy, dachgeschoss! 19:28:52 I almost think of imperative and procedural to be close to synonyms, with some mild differences but with considerable overlap. 19:28:55 Pascal could describe imperative, or, maybe even BASIC. Would BASIC do? 19:29:11 cheater_: lol 19:29:20 basic is centered on sequential execution of commands 19:29:28 that is imperative programming... 19:29:29 It's a friggin' coding style. You can do imperative code in Haskell. You can also do functional code in assembly. 19:29:34 BASIC might do, I think so 19:29:35 ^ 19:29:48 (I will question your sanity for functional assembly, though) 19:30:24 You can do functional code in assembly better than in C, since at least you can guarantee TCO in assembly 19:30:25 cheater_: I'd like to point out that those lyrics make perfect sense :P 19:30:25 NihilistDandy, i like to differentiate between "declarative" and "constructive" 19:30:36 languages tend to match coding styles to a degree. There are coding styles they are comfortable with and those they are not. 19:30:41 NihilistDandy, that's totally dachgeschoss of you 19:31:32 CakeProphet: Which still leaves functional vs. imperative as a pretty pitiful dichotomy. 19:31:41 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:31:53 it's not really a dichotomy. Just.. two animals in a barn. 19:32:00 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 19:32:06 except one is part of another 19:32:10 and they're siamese twins 19:32:24 Fucking connection 19:32:24 like a two-headed horse sorta. 19:32:32 i tried to traverse the graph and i failed 19:32:39 After all, functional code is going to come about fairly naturally from most any language with TCO, closures, and garbage collection, and imperative code is utterly natural in anything with side effects. 19:33:00 functional code in Python is not very natural feeling. 19:33:09 compared to Haskell and Erlang, anyways. 19:33:11 Python has neither TCO nor garbage collection. 19:33:26 And its lambda feature is, ah, limiting. 19:33:32 I don't really know what that acronym is. 19:33:40 Tail-call optimisation. 19:33:43 oh, right. 19:34:13 Python has garbage collection though. 19:34:44 No, it has reference counting and some hacks to make circular references not leak memory. 19:35:01 does that not count as automatic memory management? 19:35:21 Well. It does, but that's not garbage collection. :P 19:35:58 Probably should've said "automatic memory management", though. 19:36:09 I don't really follow but okay... 19:36:21 It is also possible to write a Python function decorator that does TCO (well, to self-calls, anyway) by stack inspection, and exception throw/catch to fake a tail call. Assuming you have a barf bag, anyway. http://code.activestate.com/recipes/474088-tail-call-optimization-decorator/ 19:36:45 maybe there's something specific about the definition of garbage collection that makes it different from automatic memory management that I haven't really paid attention to. 19:36:53 Yes, there is. 19:36:53 fizzie: It is also possible to write a C function that JITs Lisp and hands you a function pointer for it. 19:37:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:38:37 CakeProphet: Automatic memory management refers to any memory management that does not require manual handling of details. Garbage collection refers to one of a number of techniques that scan the heap for unused memory that can be reclaimed. 19:39:05 I thought there was a "reference counting garbage collection" technique? 19:40:02 No. Reference counting never scans the heap. Reference counting simply frees an allocation when the reference count for an allocation drops to 0. 19:40:24 reference counting is a kind of garbage collection, really 19:40:35 region inference is an example of a non-GC automatic memory management type 19:41:44 "Never freeing" is also an example of a non-GC automatic memory management type (admittedly, a pathological case). 19:41:48 I mean, I can import gc in Python, which stands for garbage collector 19:41:50 it must have one! 19:42:04 pikhq_: That's the memory management mandated by the Scheme standard. 19:42:27 elliott: Leaving garbage collection as nothing more than an optimisation? 19:42:28 >>> gc.isenabled() 19:42:28 True 19:42:33 cool. I feel reassured. 19:42:41 pikhq_: A specifically-allowed one, yes. 19:42:52 (Well, any other management strategy is allowed, so long as it is never visible.) 19:42:54 elliott: wait, does that mean scheme cannot have finalizers? :P 19:43:28 elliott: Not that surprising, really. 19:43:36 That's an implementation detail, after all. 19:44:05 oerjan: well, any implementation can do what it wants 19:44:14 oerjan: RnRS only defines behaviour on RnRS programs :P 19:44:21 elliott: if i'm my own fault, does that mean i'm the embodiment of recursion 19:44:34 good garbage collection in the style of ghc has the advantage that it only touches live objects, which is good for idiomatic haskell where most values die quickly 19:44:45 oerjan: "in the style of GHC" 19:44:45 reference counting is almost the opposite to that 19:44:47 aka any copying collector 19:45:54 in my ecosystem-based language garbage collection will occur in the form of natural disasters. 19:46:08 elliott: naturally ghc is my personal base point :P 19:46:16 you can have them strike randomly or on command. 19:46:49 "Collection asteroid coming up" 19:46:59 haha 19:47:07 cheater_: I'm my own grandpaaaa 19:47:42 So the reason I brought up that topic before was that stage 2 of the plan was to say, is it better to understand an abstract generalization by studying a sample of it's specializations, or by studying it without knowledge of it's specializations. 19:48:10 Study the abstraction and make up your own special cases 19:48:27 since all of the memory is in use by the program always, the best way to prevent memory leaks is to have occasional ecosystem collapse. 19:48:46 though I can't say it will help with the determinism of your program. 19:48:57 NihilistDandy, die untermieter staren die waende an? 19:49:09 who cares about determinism 19:49:34 to clarify further, ^of it's implemented specializations and the specializations used in practice.. these can be traditional or standardized or conventions 19:50:36 for example a rain storm might kill out some of the more fragile cold-blooded creatures. 19:50:37 For any useful (not a toy) abstract generalization...(is abstract generalization a tautology?) should i just say abstraction? 19:50:54 sure. 19:50:59 The specialization space is unreasonably large 19:51:11 Ei älä. 19:51:21 * elliott wonders how to join ends. 19:51:32 hjlep 19:51:41 like animals 19:52:00 the potential specializations of the abstraction Animal 19:52:06 are very many indeed 19:52:14 so instead we focus on the existing animals 19:52:15 itidus20: e.g. group theory (from mathematics) would be rather useless unless you did _both_ 19:52:24 abstraction animal what 19:52:37 or we blend parts.. like anthropomorphizing 19:52:44 furry. 19:52:45 combining the human animal with another animal 19:53:16 hljep 19:53:34 itidus20: are you sure you know what you're saying right now? 19:53:39 in fact it may be the first example math students get of an abstraction investigated in general without (just) looking at specific examples 19:53:50 monqy: as in, dog, cat, fish, etc are all specializations of the abstraction animal 19:53:55 CakeProphet: I have a feeling he doesn't 19:54:15 I could almost imagine this being the topic of a literature or creative writing paper. 19:54:27 CakeProphet: Comparative literature, even 19:54:37 elliott: I don't suppose you ever found a virtual keyboard that isn't terrible? 19:55:00 Gregor: I solved my problem by adding jobs in batches of 9 or 99 19:55:10 Or one, which conveniently is what's chosen if you just press enter 19:55:13 Talking about animals like this is very darwinian of me. 19:55:21 Gregor: So, no, but please let me know if you find one. 19:55:37 Gregor: You should just write one, it'd be like three hundred lines of C. :p 19:55:46 AS LONG AS IT WORKS AT A LOW ENOUGH LEVEL FOR SDL TO LIKE IT 19:56:18 an abstraction is a way to condense information into a single concept. 19:56:26 >_> there you go. 19:57:30 itidus20: what is it you want, again? 19:58:13 ok what if I said I see a function as an abstraction of a number set 19:58:34 I dunno, did you say that? 19:58:37 We'd rip you apart because many of us know what functions and sets actually are. 19:58:43 "5" is a specialization of the fibonnacci function 19:58:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:58:52 no. 19:58:59 "4" is not 19:59:01 ripping to shreds 19:59:10 hi ais523 19:59:12 Gregor: Can you fix the log program so that QUIT messages are included in the channel raw logs? It would help, if using it to search using AWK or whatever. I think I know why the QUIT messages are not included but I also think it ought to be corrected anyways. Do you know about this? 19:59:15 hi elliott 19:59:16 abstraction is the wrong word for that. 19:59:34 or rather, a function is an abstraction, but not necessarily of a set. 19:59:35 ais523, you are mayor of the #esoteric-minecraft dwarf fortress fortress 19:59:48 itidus20, you're talking about the image of the function, I think. 19:59:49 hmm 19:59:58 does this mean I'll die horribly after making too many awkward demands? 20:00:02 Yes, yes you are. 20:00:07 ah 20:00:09 Actually, your demands have been pretty good 20:00:12 ais523, you will if I have anything to do with it. 20:00:14 Low boots and copper 20:00:36 ais523: no, that's the previous mayer. 20:00:37 mayor. 20:00:46 So when we're talking about programming languages, a function is an abstraction of the algorithm that defines it. Instead of rewriting the algorithm we just use the name and plug in the inputs. 20:01:07 No, it's not. 20:01:07 wjat 20:01:15 That's how it works in imperative languages. 20:01:48 my not knowing functional languages is limiting me 20:02:09 and so i can't actually process why i am wrong 20:02:15 ok 20:02:22 That's by far not the big thing limiting you. 20:02:31 my case is pretty good 20:02:33 Your essential problem is that you're trying to derive the world from scratch. 20:02:50 Stephen Hawking did it 20:02:58 But he's Stephen Hawking 20:03:14 Phantom_Hoover: yes, it was one of way of describing functions as an abstraction. There is more than one. 20:03:15 No, he didn't. 20:03:24 Does "ddate" program allow switching between Julian and Gregorian mode? In my opinion, the author of Principia Discordia probably intended Gregorian although the literal reading suggests Julian. What is your opinion? 20:03:44 i see abstraction as one of the most powerful ideas of all 20:03:46 Taneb, why do you think he went to university? 20:04:08 Because he was interested in... astrophysics 20:04:09 ? 20:04:42 Stephen Hawking stands on the shoulders of giants. 20:04:50 is the problem that i named it abstraction? 20:05:35 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 20:05:36 i don't like it when some group proclaims jurisdiction over everything 20:05:49 its bad.. its like a conceptual black hole 20:05:55 zzo38: I think most programmers forget about the problem altogether 20:05:59 pikhq_: you mean sits. 20:05:59 perhaps that is what i am doing to this word abstraction 20:06:02 That group being? 20:06:08 Because he was interested in... astrophysics 20:06:12 oerjan: Well, okay. He used to stand there but no longer does. 20:06:13 Jesus Taneb. 20:06:30 Yeah, I get your point 20:06:32 I claim jurisdiction over every group. 20:06:34 Do you really think he worked out cosmology by himself? 20:06:39 The Einstein field equations? 20:06:40 I am the biggest, baddest group of all. 20:06:51 I think I was using a completely different meaning of from scratch 20:06:52 That group being? 20:06:54 A_5 20:06:58 Context, rather 20:07:04 there is a need for each group to not get too big for it's boots 20:07:12 Taneb: Yes, the one that doesn't mean "from nothing", apparently. 20:07:24 itidus20: familiar with set theory? 20:07:27 He mathematically demonstrated that it is possible for a universe to be created out of nothing 20:07:34 Phantom_Hoover: A_5 is pretty badass 20:07:40 Did he? 20:07:41 i don't like it when some group proclaims jurisdiction over everything 20:07:50 pikhq_: pretty sure he did 20:07:52 Nobody's declaring jurisdiction over anything. 20:07:57 i am 20:07:58 smallest simple noncommutative group 20:08:09 oerjan, isn't it the rotation group of the icosahedron and dodecahedron too? 20:08:14 im saying everything is a specialization of something else 20:08:25 Phantom_Hoover: i don't know about that 20:08:27 itidus20: What about category theory? 20:08:35 ~ 20:08:48 maybe that fits 20:08:50 oerjan, I tried to do it when I learnt the orbit-stabiliser thing but I failed. 20:08:57 itidus20: and turtles all the way down? 20:08:59 category theory is a specialization of mathematics. :) 20:08:59 abstractions and categories sound similar 20:09:01 ais523: Do you understand my question though? 20:09:15 itidus20: do you even know what category theory is 20:09:15 CakeProphet: You've got it backwards. :P 20:09:16 zzo38: yes 20:09:26 :D 20:09:39 category theory is a specialization of mathematics. :) 20:09:46 It's a field of it. 20:09:54 my brother showed me an episode of "alphas" before.. im the guy who doesn't have a clue what is going on 20:10:00 Is it a well-ordered field? 20:10:13 category theory is more general than a mere field! 20:10:20 NihilistDandy: yeah, okay, category theory defines everything in mathematics ever. Hasn't that been said about a lot of different fields of mathematics? 20:10:34 ais523, well yes, there is the whole everything is a category issue. 20:10:34 maybe not literally as I said it. :P 20:10:36 CakeProphet: Sure it has, but category theory also defines them 20:10:39 Can we agree on "general abstract nonsense"? 20:10:52 :D 20:10:53 elliott: not abstract enough! 20:10:56 Phantom_Hoover: not quite everything 20:11:04 There's not enough esoteric mathematics. 20:11:08 I found something that wasn't in my PhD, and had to justify to my supervisor why it wasn't 20:11:12 we have the capacity for conflict because conflict is healthy... we are not wired to agree on everything 20:11:17 and even then, it probably could have been made into a category with a few more definitions 20:11:34 ais523: I like how category theory basically reverses the burden of proof :-D 20:11:40 lol 20:11:52 elliott: no, but we might define a natural equivalence with general abstract nonsense 20:12:07 perhaps an isomorphism? 20:12:14 elliott, burden of proof doesn't exist in maths. 20:12:32 Phantom_Hoover: No, but it does in conversation. 20:12:44 the burden of proof is on the system! 20:12:46 the system I say! 20:12:59 elliott, and anyway negative statements aren't assumed by the burden of proof. 20:13:17 Phantom_Hoover: STOP RUINING MY JOKE 20:13:31 ais523, did you actually say "it isn't a category" in the paper? 20:13:38 no, we're not mad 20:13:49 That's uncategorically incorrect 20:13:53 "we'd get burned at the stake!" 20:13:57 we did have to own up when asked about it at the conference 20:13:59 from wiki "Category theory is an area of study in mathematics that examines in an abstract way the properties of particular mathematical concepts, by formalising them as collections of objects and arrows" AS GRAPHS 20:14:01 * oerjan maps elliott's joke onto a terminal element 20:14:02 but by then, it was already too late to reject the paper 20:14:02 CakeProphet calculus: $ is the Pope, & is a grave, ^ is a mighty axe. The Pope must die. 20:14:03 nLab will string you up 20:14:12 itidus20: a graph is a special case of a category 20:14:13 not collections of objects and arrows... the word for such a collection is a graph 20:14:17 itidus20: No... not as graphs. 20:14:19 but then, more or less everything is a special case of a category 20:14:26 lol 20:14:34 everything is a special case of a dead Pope! 20:14:35 ais523: Except maybe colorless green dreams. 20:14:37 for instance, a group expressed as a category has only one object, and all the elements of the group correspond to arrows 20:14:46 they borrowed their notation from graphs clearly 20:14:47 itidus20: Try not to think you're smarter than whoever wrote the Wikipedia on a subject minutes after you're introduced to you. 20:14:48 that doesn't act much like a graph 20:14:51 Oh for christ's sake. 20:15:04 It's stupid to say what defines what in the first place. 20:15:20 Phantom_Hoover: I define everything. 20:15:22 A dictionary contains definitions of words 20:15:23 Categories and graphs just happen to have easily-linked definitions. 20:15:33 elliott: yeah im trolling 20:15:33 They aqre defined, for example, by Oxford University Press 20:15:36 Ergo, I shall define "stupid" to mean "especially astute and wise". 20:15:49 except when the Pope dies you know it's legit... 20:15:54 s/aqre/are/ 20:16:04 pikhq_: You're stupid as shit 20:16:11 CakeProphet: $$^& 20:16:12 anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane 20:16:19 what 20:16:22 `addquote anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane 20:16:23 573) anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane 20:16:42 NihilistDandy: Indeed. 20:17:10 nearly every written language is made of a small set of curves 20:17:17 and drawings are called line drawings 20:17:45 the euclidean plane is a function of the pilot's hands. 20:18:02 The pilot's hands are a subset of the pilot 20:18:14 itidus20: I can write on non-Euclidean geometries just fine. 20:18:41 * pikhq_ holds up a ball 20:18:52 On the weekend I had some dream about pokemon, but I don't remember anything else about it. Maybe that is all it is? 20:18:58 The pilot inhabits the parabolic plane 20:19:24 so all notations are basically about lines 20:19:36 what 20:19:41 wut 20:19:42 lines forming glyphs, lines forming polygons 20:19:48 im a polygon 20:19:49 what 20:19:49 arranged in a nice way 20:19:55 itidus20: if you cannot kill the pope with it, then you haven't really rigorously defined anything. 20:20:07 lol 20:20:07 I'm a collection of irregular and regular polyhedra 20:20:38 notations for the most part can be represented on paper or on a monitor 20:20:46 nowhere else. 20:20:49 unpossible. 20:20:53 nowhere else! 20:21:01 I'm a four dimensional solid inhabiting three dimensional space 20:21:04 Kill the pope with it?? 20:21:13 Kill the pope with it.. 20:21:13 hence all the self-intersection 20:21:49 the mighty axe is surely the best way to kill... 20:22:16 But sometimes the subtlety of poison is what is needed 20:22:21 poison axe 20:22:24 ok so.. what i'll try to do is stop talking for a bit 20:22:27 CakeProphet: But can you prove your axe's mightiness rigorously? 20:22:47 because the more i don't understand the topic in here, the more relevant it is likely to be.. difficult as that is for me to accept 20:23:08 it is a natural instinct to try to lower the topic to my level 20:24:07 CakeProphet calculus is a highly advanced level on the mathematical plane. 20:24:20 perhaps you should learn about it sometime. 20:24:23 knowledge is power. 20:24:27 *lege 20:24:42 but knowing ledges is a useful way to avoid falling off of them. 20:24:44 Knowledge is lege? 20:24:52 power is a specification of knowledge 20:25:05 oh wait it is knowledge nevermind. 20:25:25 good to know. 20:25:30 OH HO HO HO HO 20:26:24 i don't even know algebra.. 20:26:31 this is problematic 20:26:32 O.o 20:26:33 that would be a good start. 20:27:02 itidus20: define algebra 20:27:10 itidus20: you should learn how to play an instrument before you attempt to write a concerto. 20:27:37 I've got a friend who is awful at maths 20:27:42 Sgeo: Update. 20:27:44 So I tried to teach him Haskell 20:27:46 example: 2/3(2x -5 ) = 2/3(8x - 3) 20:27:56 good definition 20:28:54 x = -1/3 20:28:57 yep. 20:29:13 but how can you play an instrument if you haven't even written a concerto to play on it? 20:29:18 God, I'm out of practice 20:29:27 Taneb: yeah it took me way to long to work that one. 20:29:37 I blame summer holidays. 20:29:41 I blame time. 20:29:48 I actually began to hallucinate in my last maths exam 20:29:58 for me.. i would have to slowly work through it 20:30:04 Numbers would be wrong, twos would be fives 20:30:07 and i would make a mistake anyway 20:30:12 14s would be 13s 20:30:23 interesting. 20:30:30 the idea of doing algebra in my head is unthinkable for me 20:30:37 I occasionally hallucinate when I'm going to sleep or waking up. 20:30:50 who does anything in their head 20:30:51 sometimes I hallucinate while I'm sleeping 20:30:57 CakeProphet: that's not uncommon. 20:31:03 elliott: indeed not. 20:31:10 `quote fist 20:31:11 428) You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice. \ 520) The Russian's emblem was the hammer and sickle, not the fist and other fist 20:31:12 Actually you hallucinate every time you go to sleep or wake up. 20:31:39 once I felt a ghost, as I was waking up. 20:31:48 what did it feel like 20:31:49 That's not uncommon at all. 20:31:51 I've never felt a ghost 20:31:55 Look up sleep paralysis. 20:32:21 I wasn't paralyzed though. I got out of bed, because I thought someone was standing outside of my bedroom door, which was out of view. 20:32:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:32:40 and then I felt the presence move into my room, through me, and onto the bed next to me. made my heart jump. 20:32:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of bromide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:33:05 er, I sat up in bed, actually. I didn't get out. 20:33:10 /story 20:33:22 is a category theory diagram an approximation of neural structures? 20:33:28 what 20:33:35 I think he's just making stuff up now. 20:33:41 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:33:50 itidus20: you should make friends with fungot 20:33:50 elliott: but that jackass won't shut up and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or the bottom of the letter is a series of really coy riddles about it and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we 20:34:03 ^style 20:34:12 ^style 20:34:13 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 20:34:15 what's up with the periodic matrices of elements? 20:34:19 fizzie: That... 20:34:22 fizzie: That wasn't Homestuck. 20:34:24 Erm. 20:34:25 fungot:. 20:34:25 elliott: you and the pogo hammer. 20:34:29 well.. a neuron is to a node and an object, as a dendrite is to a morphism and an edge 20:34:30 Although I guess it's a fungot bug so fizzie too. 20:34:36 fungot: unlock the bromide 20:34:36 olsner: are you on fire yet or what 20:34:41 Oh, huh. 20:34:44 It is Homestuck. 20:35:00 fungot: I love you 20:35:01 CakeProphet: a little later... have i mentioned nanna to you, did i? 20:35:16 Do you think it would be possible to rig fungot up to the logs? 20:35:17 Taneb: have a look. which of course. now it is my turn to the back inside cover, but it seems the john in the head of your smaller hammer from your deck is really dwindling now. maybe it would be best not to be near it 20:35:20 elliott, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003752 20:35:21 It is. 20:35:24 fungot: you want to talk dirty about your grandmother? 20:35:24 CakeProphet: the modus recognizes the drawing, but there it is, in case he doesn't want you to be my next wild presumption. ashes. usually these matches his, that is a smart mouth you have. it plays a role in the outcome of the kids' game session. 20:35:26 Yeah, I know. 20:35:32 Taneb: it already has been, ^style irc 20:35:43 although that's the logs of multiple channels, not just #esoteric 20:35:43 Taneb: That's how it primarily talks. 20:36:12 monqy, cake: im comparing it with neurons precisely because of how it's creepy to do so 20:36:23 itidus20: creepy? 20:36:35 >_> 20:36:46 i think it is 20:36:49 itidus20: did you know that I am the queen of France? 20:37:03 does france even have a monarchy? 20:37:08 sure does. 20:37:13 oh cool 20:37:15 itidus20: No, but its leader is a monarch. 20:37:18 itidus20, do you know... anything. 20:37:19 so many similarities: CakeProphet doesn't have a beard, and there is no evidence he exists. 20:37:46 itidus20, like, did you go to school. 20:37:55 im the empouress of americas 20:37:58 (the ruler of France is also Co-Prince of Andorra.) 20:38:10 i tried to 20:38:12 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I didn't know that France had a monarchy. 20:38:17 Phantom_Hoover: But I'm not into pop culture. 20:38:25 Phantom_Hoover: (OK I didn't know it didn't have one either.) 20:38:34 (I swapped that knowledge out to Wikipedia for when I need it, which will be never.) 20:38:37 elliott, r u srs. 20:38:44 They had that revolution? 20:38:50 Multiple times 20:38:51 Phantom_Hoover: Well yeah, I know THAT part. 20:38:55 EXACTLY 20:38:58 But anyway, I'm more referring to itidus' general lack of knowledge. 20:38:58 Maybe they had a monarchy yesterday 20:39:00 MAYBE THEY DON'T TODAY 20:39:04 HOW COULD I POSSIBLY KEEP TRACK 20:39:09 who cares what they had, have or don't have 20:39:21 what will they have 20:39:23 In conclusion: fuck the French. 20:39:24 They had that revolution <-- they've had monarchy since that happened, mind you 20:39:32 itidus20: but yeah um did you not learn any elementary algebra. 20:39:36 pretty sure they have baguettes 20:40:04 And croissants 20:40:09 Bagguoistants. 20:40:29 croisettes and baguants 20:40:32 when i approach algebra i find i can't absorb the rules 20:40:35 Except croissants are actually... Hungarian? originally 20:40:42 itidus20: So how do you function? 20:40:52 NihilistDandy: I have a suspicion he doesn't 20:41:06 :|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:| 20:41:19 french baguettes originated in france, obviously 20:41:24 itidus20: s/algebra/elementary algebra/. 20:41:27 *croissants 20:41:28 This has nothing to do with abstract algebra. 20:42:06 If x = 2, what is x+2, itidus20? 20:42:07 french fries, freedom fries 20:42:09 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:42:15 Which were originally Belgia 20:42:16 n 20:42:17 4 20:42:21 Yep 20:42:29 speaking of elementary algebra like it were abstract algebra is like someone confusing a danish hill with mount everest 20:42:30 america land of the bad names for things 20:42:41 If x-4 =5, what is x? 20:42:53 9 20:42:54 freedom fries aka invade-some-desert fries? 20:43:09 See, you're not that bad 20:43:13 x + y = 2y - 9, solve for x. 20:43:17 freedom fries aka fuck the french fries 20:43:33 * oerjan watches itidus20's head explode 20:43:48 (get x on its own) 20:43:51 monqy: that sounds,,,,, palnfaiful, 20:44:07 fuck the french, but be sure to make them shower first 20:44:11 x = 2y - 9 - y 20:44:18 itidus20: simplify, please 20:44:25 hunnnf 20:44:27 oerjan: Cheese everests are delicious 20:44:40 itidus20, 2x - x = what? 20:45:06 itidus20: expand (x+4)(x+5) 20:45:18 if x is apples, and you have two apples, and you take one away, how many apples do you have........ 20:45:28 2x - x = x? 20:45:34 applause 20:45:47 itidus20, I'm not going to confirm the answer, but monqy just ruined it THANKS MONQY 20:45:53 So, what's 2y-9-y 20:46:10 monqy: apples 20:46:15 itidus20: calculuate 5!. show all work. 20:46:18 elliott: hlep 20:46:39 CakeProphet: 5! = an excited 5 20:46:42 (end work) 20:46:45 86 choose 17, show all work 20:46:55 Phantom_Hoover: the problem for me in that situation was uhh.. 20:47:03 itidus20: use the quadratic equation to solve 23x^2 + 13x + 4 20:47:09 "The Iranian confectioner's union designated "Roses of the Prophet Muhammad" as the new name for Danish pastries made in the country as of 15 February 2006, although compliance with the proposed name in bakeries was mixed and short-lived." 20:47:10 prove that 5=5 ok 20:47:19 Prove the rationality of sqrt(2) 20:47:29 also cheese on danishes, are you crazy? 20:47:34 monqy: That's really hard 20:47:44 oerjan: Have you never heard of a cheese danish/ 20:47:46 *? 20:47:51 Phantom_Hoover: was? 20:47:53 oerjan: If they draw Muhammed on them, I approve. 20:47:56 (x+4)(x+5) = x^2 + 9x + 20 20:48:00 oerjan: Danish people make a delicious treat when topped with a little cheese. 20:48:11 monqy, refl_equal 5. 20:48:13 Qed. 20:48:25 oerjan: It's cream cheese 20:48:35 2y-9-y=y-9 20:48:45 Well OK that should be "exact (refl_equal 5). Qed." 20:48:50 So, simplify x=2y-9-y? 20:48:50 Phantom_Hoover: s/refl_equal/eq_refl/. 20:48:57 Phantom_Hoover: And if you're going to do that then: reflexivity. Qed. 20:48:59 elliott, nope. 20:49:01 pikhq_: i'd imagine that's not the idea 20:49:01 Or even just auto. Qed. 20:49:06 oerjan: Alas. 20:49:12 elliott, Coq < Print eq. 20:49:12 Inductive eq (A : Type) (x : A) : A -> Prop := refl_equal : x = x 20:49:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yep. Notation refl_equal := eq_refl (only parsing). 20:49:14 Phantom_Hoover: Yep. Notation refl_equal := eq_refl (only parsing). 20:49:14 Also, mmmm cheese danish. 20:49:15 CakeProphet: yummy 20:49:22 Inductive eq (A:Type) (x:A) : A -> Prop := 20:49:22 eq_refl : x = x :>A 20:49:23 x=y-9 20:49:30 Source: http://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/coq/stdlib/Coq.Init.Logic.html. 20:49:39 5 = 5 because (=) = (=) 20:49:39 I've never seen a danish. The closest to a danish I've ever seen was Scooby Doo. 20:49:51 elliott, so your correction was complete crap because both are perfectly correct? 20:49:58 Taneb: *rimshot* 20:49:58 As were the rest of your 'corrections'? 20:50:09 Phantom_Hoover: I marked them as corrections where? 20:50:14 NihilistDandy: Well, not just cream cheese. It's more like what's in a cheesecake, i.e. a cream cheese based filling. 20:50:16 I would use s/// to make someone's programming style better, too. 20:50:23 CakeProphet: (==) Pointfree is better 20:50:30 pikhq_: Well, yes, that's true 20:51:22 > 5 == (5 :: CReal) 20:51:23 True 20:51:28 sneaky 20:51:42 > 5 == (5 + pi - pi :: CReal) 20:51:43 True 20:51:55 ok the trouble is when i am doing an elementary algebra equation which is unfamiliar, my attention becomes focused on trying to conform to the rules without knowing what they are 20:51:58 huh 20:51:59 I want to make a Cantor/Connect Four joke 20:52:15 But I can't think of how to work in "There, diagonally" in a sufficiently funny way 20:52:29 oerjan: wat 20:52:32 oerjan: oh hm wait 20:52:36 oerjan: CReal isn't CReal, is it 20:52:37 in lambdabot 20:52:42 > pi :: CReal 20:52:43 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972 20:52:46 cereal 20:52:47 oerjan: I mean it's not really infinite-precision is it? 20:52:49 elliott: i'm surprised it halted on the second one 20:52:58 "I proved that the reals are uncountably infinite. Where? There, diagonally. Pretty sneaky, sis." 20:53:02 elliott: well _output_ is a different thing... 20:53:06 oerjan: yes me too, which is why I don't think it is the standard CReal 20:53:09 (from Few Digits) 20:53:14 elliott: maybe it just cheats on == 20:53:26 > pi == (e :: CReal) 20:53:27 Couldn't match expected type `Data.Number.CReal.CReal' 20:53:27 against infe... 20:53:30 oerjan: oh, right 20:53:35 like i don't normally know how to break down a fraction.. the book i was looking at suggested that: 2/3(x) = 2(x)/3 ... this kind of thing isn't intuitive to me 20:53:36 > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) == 0 20:53:37 False 20:53:39 > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000) == (0 :: CReal) 20:53:40 True 20:53:44 oerjan: indeed 20:53:51 > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 :: CReal) 20:53:52 0.0 20:54:04 > (9/900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 :: CReal) * 900000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 20:54:05 9.0 20:54:06 elliott working with numbers is the very height of comedy. 20:54:07 oerjan: yep 20:54:16 Phantom_Hoover: Stop mocking me for being disabled. 20:54:27 elliott, no. 20:54:49 Well, that's true in the sense that (2/3)x = (2x/3) 20:54:56 @itidus20: 20:54:57 Unknown command, try @list 20:55:18 dandy: yup but i don't know such facts 20:55:28 It's multiplication 20:55:29 that is what i mean by i don't know elementary algebra 20:55:42 itidus20: x=m/n for some m and n 20:55:55 non-zero n 20:56:09 learn abstract algebra and it will make so much more sense???? 20:56:09 2/3 * m/n = (2*m/n)/3 blah blah blah 20:56:15 monqy: this isn't even abstract algebra 20:56:16 monqy: I find that is the case, yes 20:56:21 monqy: this is "reducing the division rule for rationals" 20:56:28 it is literally alpha replacement 20:56:39 I don't even do division 20:56:45 I just multiply by fractions 20:56:50 I don't do subtraction, either 20:56:51 Why do you even need to have x as m/n. 20:57:02 Phantom_Hoover: I was... trying to make it easy for itidus20 to see why it's true, but then I gave up. 20:57:25 elliott, and therefore failed to get across that it's true for all numbers, not just rationals. 20:57:29 elliott: Try (1/2) * 2 = (2/2) = 1 20:57:36 maybe itidus21 will get it..... 20:57:56 i recall from when i was little this nice diagonal diagram for x/y = w/z, where you can move any term across to the opposite diagonal 20:58:17 very mnemonic 20:58:26 Cross products, or whatever 20:58:34 elliott, and therefore failed to get across that it's true for all numbers, not just rationals. 20:58:44 Phantom_Hoover: SORRY but I don't ACCEPT the existence of the REALS 20:58:47 20:58:49 20:59:02 Phantom_Hoover: But seriously, it still works out if you just remove the integral restriction on m and n, I think. 20:59:05 reals just arent real sorry 20:59:12 so basically (a/b)c means: MUL c,a; DIV c,b; (not sure if operands in the right order) 20:59:16 elliott: Quite a… cutting… remark YEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHH 20:59:17 They're imaginary 20:59:42 itidus20: what 20:59:46 And integers are complex 20:59:51 itidus20: do you know what the rationals are 20:59:55 itidus20: It means (ac/b) 20:59:55 monqy: if i was to express it as assembly language 21:00:00 itidus20: why 21:00:08 * oerjan notes how elliott deftly continued with a new "" block 21:00:35 oerjan: It's really a nested lie block 21:00:50 You'd have to go back in the logs to determine the real truth value 21:00:54 lies all the way down? 21:01:02 lies == turtles 21:01:06 rationals.. yes my book told me that rationals are either repeating or terminating 21:01:09 oerjan: That's my schtick, ever since I-forget-when I reopened a tag just in caes 21:01:12 itidus20: your Book 21:01:21 What book? 21:01:22 The big book of itidus20 21:01:40 It can kill small children if mishandled 21:01:40 Magnus Liber Itidi XX 21:01:46 its a humble book called the bedside book of algebra 21:01:46 And if you think about it, they're really all repeating 21:01:50 But most of them repeat 0s 21:01:51 oh, good idea! it is then 21:02:03 So lies it isn't? 21:02:16 itidus20, did you just come here to comprehensively out-Sgeo Sgeo? 21:02:21 I'm going to try something 21:02:25 Phantom_Hoover: olawd 21:02:26 NihilistDandy: ... or is it? 21:02:34 21:02:49 Phantom_Hoover: excuse me itidus20 is like ten times as awesome as Sgeo. 21:03:05 olsner: ( 0-_) I turn away from you 21:03:05 supercomprehensively outsgeoed 21:03:12 elliott, yes, because he's so Sgeo he comes around the other side? 21:03:14 itidus20: your Book <-- itidus20 somehow has got hold of erdős's Book, but sadly he understands not a word of it 21:03:20 Phantom_Hoover: That... may be so. 21:03:46 no its actually called "the bedside book of algebra" ... :-" 21:03:53 its a cute little book 21:03:55 :-" 21:04:12 itidus20, see, that's a very Sgeo thing to have. 21:04:16 but the elementary algebra examples are able to break me.. over little details 21:04:24 itidus20: are you sure? try to look for a page starting something like "Proof that P = NP" or "Proof that P != NP" 21:04:41 The Bedside Book of Algebra By Paul Erdős and Kevin Bacon? 21:04:44 The ABC of X plus Z 21:05:00 oerjan: i do know that theres $1,000,000 on the table for whoever can prove it 21:05:10 indeed 21:05:13 oerjan, what's Erdos' book? 21:05:20 however, surely that is a pittance compared to the value of the actual act 21:05:38 Phantom_Hoover: Love's Labours Won 21:05:43 Phantom_Hoover: It's where God keeps all the proofs 21:05:44 Phantom_Hoover: the hypothetical book that contains the most elegant proof of every mathematical theorem 21:05:56 they're just hoping some indian with a family to feed gives the answer to them 21:06:03 Taneb, if this is going to become a Doctor Who reference don't bother. 21:06:04 http://jpg.artige.no/store/9871.jpg 21:06:26 No, I was thinking of all the missing books I could 21:06:32 NihilistDandy: I... 21:06:44 me too 21:06:48 oerjan, what's Erdos' book? 21:06:52 Phantom_Hoover: the one with all the nice porofs 21:07:04 @where+ horror http://jpg.artige.no/store/9871.jpg 21:07:04 Done. 21:07:06 oerjan: um of every theorem? I don't recall him saying that, I HAVE READ HIS WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE _SEVERAL_ TIMES 21:07:09 its one of the last books i bought before officially having no more money 21:07:26 NihilistDandy, ARGH 21:07:27 itidus20: Use topology to make more money 21:07:30 I HATE YOU 21:07:35 lol 21:07:40 NihilistDandy: Can I set that as my desktop background, tiled. 21:07:44 DO IT 21:07:47 Can GNOME display animated gifs as the background and if not, why not. 21:08:05 Actually zooming in tells me that stretching it may be better. 21:08:13 noone "really" wants an animated desktop 21:08:17 I DO 21:08:20 "really"? 21:08:26 In the sense that I don't relaly 21:08:27 really 21:08:27 I very rarely actually look at my desktop 21:08:30 But I do for, like, whole seconds 21:08:31 elliott thinks he wants one. 21:08:45 Taneb: Nobody does, that's why wallpapers are stupid and people who care about wallpapers are stupid. 21:08:48 just for kicks 21:08:51 Zooming in just makes it worse 21:08:59 my background is just black 21:09:06 AND IF MY FRIEND WHO CARES ABOUT WALLPAPERS IS READING THIS, YOU'RE TSUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21:09:17 monqy: mine is the default ubuntu wallpaper (im creative) 21:09:21 elliott: I have a very nice wallpaper with a Gagarin quote on it 21:09:49 Gagarin has quotes?? 21:09:54 Gagarin, more like GagarBIN. 21:09:58 Because he should be put into the BIN. 21:10:13 Phantom_Hoover: "I see no God up here." 21:10:30 i have a range of math books... some with actual substance.. but to elementary algebra 21:10:35 -!- myndzi has joined. 21:10:38 When was the last time someone said God was literally in space 21:10:40 NihilistDandy, Misattributed 21:10:40 I see no God up here. 21:10:40 This has been reported as a remark Gagarin made while in orbit aboard Vostok 1, but there is no indication of it in the official transcripts of his communications. It is similar to the above statements he reportedly made after his return to earth, which might have given rise to this account. 21:10:42 I would have the default Ubuntu desktop wallpaper 21:10:43 But! 21:10:47 Like did the Soviets go: 21:10:47 OH SNAP 21:10:49 Let us know if you see God up there 21:10:52 Just sorta hoverin' all big like 21:10:53 Because 21:10:55 That would sort of 21:11:00 Damage our position on that matter a bit 21:11:02 Not Russian enough. 21:11:02 I am temporarily using Windows due to reasons I don't fully understand 21:11:03 So just 21:11:05 Let us know 21:11:23 one trouble i get is if i see something like: x / 5 = 2x + 3 21:11:29 Phantom_Hoover: The wallpaper doesn't say he said it in space. 21:11:41 So it's just a terrible paraphrase 21:11:42 Поехали! 21:11:42 Let's go! 21:11:42 Uttered during the launch of Vostok 1 (12 April 1961); quoted by Sergey Viktorovich Novikov, in Большая историческая энциклопедия [The Greater Historical Encyclopedia] (2003) by Olma Media Group, p, 943 21:11:42 Variant translations: Let's ride! 21:11:42 Let's drive! 21:11:45 INSPIRING WORDS FROM AN INSPIRING MAN 21:11:55 AWESOME 21:12:02 NihilistDandy, it doesn't say he didn't say it in space. 21:12:16 I am a friend, comrades, a friend! 21:12:17 First words upon returning to earth, to a woman and a girl near where his capsule landed (12 April 1961) The woman asked: "Can it be that you have come from outer space?" to which Gagarin replied: "As a matter of fact, I have!" As quoted in The Air Up There : More Great Quotations on Flight (2003) by Dave English, p. 118 21:12:19 OK that 21:12:21 is awesome 21:12:24 Were they just like two random people 21:12:28 Drops out of space 21:12:29 gets out 21:12:31 That should be the quote. 21:12:31 "SUP GUYS" 21:12:43 "FROM SPACE" 21:13:04 All astronauts should land in random places specifically chosen to be populated but only by people who have no idea there's a space mission going on. 21:13:13 I am disappointed in NASA for not arranging this 21:13:18 "GOOD MORNING STALINSHINE, THE VACUUM OF SPACE SAYS HELLO" 21:13:24 One trouble I get is if I see something like: x / 5 = 2x + 3 Do I say x = 2x + 3(5) OR x = (2x + 3)5 21:13:33 im guessing its the latter though 21:13:40 elliott: The US would do well for that. 21:14:01 When they saw me in my space suit and the parachute dragging alongside as I walked, they started to back away in fear. I told them, don't be afraid, I am a Soviet like you, who has descended from space and I must find a telephone to call Moscow! 21:14:02 Recalling his meeting with workers in a field, upon his landing, as quoted in "Life on Mars?" by Jesse Skinner in Toro magazine (14 October 2008) 21:14:02 pikhq_, I'm just going to stop you before you start bitching 21:14:02 OK 21:14:05 this 21:14:10 this is the best landing ever. 21:14:20 itidus20: x = 10x + 15, -9x = 15, x = -(15/9) 21:14:22 Nobody said anything that cool after landing to the moon. 21:14:33 Nobody asked for a telephone to call Moscow after landing on the moon. 21:14:43 Landing on the moon: less cool than landing on Earth. 21:15:07 "Mr Stalin, phone is ringing!" 21:15:14 "Who is it?" 21:15:31 "He says he is from space!" 21:16:05 itidus20: ...:( 21:16:34 "Hey guys it's me I landed and I'll just stay with these guys until you get here. 21:17:05 "Please don't execute me when you get here." 21:17:28 monqy: i was fairly sure but i know i need to be certain 21:18:32 Oh; gcc was ported to System Seven 21:18:35 -!- Swiss_ has joined. 21:18:35 excellent 21:18:35 itidus20: Remember that whatever you do to one side, you have to do the same thing on the other side 21:18:45 Hi 21:18:46 FINALLY MY IMPOSSIBLE PROJECT IS ONE STEP CLOSER TO COMPLETION 21:18:53 Hey, Swiss_ 21:18:54 Swiss_: How much pride would you say you have in your country 21:18:57 At least if you're trying to maintain equality 21:18:59 which impossible project 21:19:10 elliott: _ <- this much, apparently 21:19:13 -!- Swiss_ has left. 21:19:18 "Following the flight, Gagarin told the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev that during reentry he had whistled the tune "The Motherland Hears, The Motherland Knows" Following the flight, Gagarin told the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev that during reentry he had whistled the tune "The Motherland Hears, The Motherland Knows" " 21:19:21 monqy: (A) Cygwin(-alike) for Macintosh System 7 21:19:23 Oh, he actually was swiss 21:19:27 NihilistDandy: Well, his username is swiss_guy 21:19:34 monqy: (or earlier) 21:19:35 _o_ 21:19:35 | 21:19:35 /| 21:19:42 monqy: (preferably system software 6) 21:19:43 Ah 21:19:46 oerjan: um of every theorem? I don't recall him saying that, I HAVE READ HIS WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE _SEVERAL_ TIMES <-- well it must be true since i made up that phrasing on the spot 21:19:49 monqy: Including pre-emptive multitasking. 21:19:56 What the hell is myndzi? 21:19:58 "Ah, damn, I didn't realise reëntry would take this long." 21:20:03 "Might as well whistle." 21:20:11 _o_ 21:20:11 | 21:20:11 /| 21:20:12 NihilistDandy, an ungodly fusion of machine and man. 21:20:36 \o/ 21:20:36 | 21:20:36 /< 21:20:49 OK I am officially a Gagarin Fan now. 21:20:52 dandy: but supposing i had: x + y/5 = 2x + 3 ... would it then become x+y = 10x + 15 .. or would it be something else? 21:20:53 \o\ 21:20:53 | 21:20:53 /| 21:20:55 I don't care how much of a communist he was. 21:21:15 itidus20: You have to multiply each side by 5 21:21:20 itidus20: Use topology to make more money <-- sheesh Banach-Tarski isn't topology 21:21:21 Unfortunately, it's an ungodly fusion that uses a justification that nobody else does. 21:21:25 So it would be 5x + y = 10x + 15 21:21:40 Phantom_Hoover: Most people use that justification. 21:21:46 The only common client that doesn't is XChat. 21:22:00 oerjan: Oh, psh. Set theoretic geometry, topology, whatevs 21:22:10 NihilistDandy: It's not geometry either 21:22:14 Bananas and plantains 21:22:20 Weeell 21:22:28 I guess I'll grant "set theoretic geometry", even Wikipedia seems to call it that 21:22:34 But it seems unfair 21:22:50 What would you call it? 21:23:04 Spacewank? 21:23:05 Probably just "set theory" 21:23:17 It starts off with geometry, then goes off and does its own thing 21:23:22 Then ends in the same bit of geometry 21:23:46 cool 21:24:03 It's group theory as well. 21:24:21 The group theory is the important bit, really. 21:24:25 :o 21:25:16 Group theory is really what gets you laid 21:25:37 groupie theory 21:25:45 See also: stable marriage problem 21:26:07 what about if i have (x + y)/5 = 2x + 3 ... can I say x+y = 10x + 15? 21:26:16 itidus20: Yes 21:27:06 But putting parentheses around an expression isn't an operation, so don't try to be cute. :P 21:27:45 humm... i see 21:27:59 so (x + y)/5 = x/5 + y/5 21:28:07 Yes 21:28:32 `quote Mafia 21:28:33 No output. 21:29:25 so if i want to remove a term on one side, i add the inverse term on hte other side.. but if i want to remove a division from one term, i multiply all the terms on both sides by the inverse of the division 21:29:40 wjat 21:29:53 Multiplication is the inverse of division 21:29:59 well ya 21:30:14 "multiply ... by the inverse of the division" what does this mean 21:30:31 bad english 21:30:52 err.. its a tautology 21:31:10 or something 21:31:14 Multiply by multiplication? 21:31:20 Probably just "set theory" <-- also an important bit of group theory 21:31:26 > 1 * (*) 21:31:27 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> a) 21:31:27 arising from a use... 21:31:52 > (*).(*) 21:31:53 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a) 21:31:53 arisin... 21:32:03 > @type (*).(*) 21:32:04 : parse error on input `@' 21:32:06 > (1 * (*)) <$> [0..10] 21:32:07 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) 21:32:07 arising from a use of `... 21:32:08 @type (*).(*) 21:32:09 forall a. (Num a) => a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a 21:32:12 derp 21:32:28 > 1 ** 10 21:32:29 1.0 21:33:01 Goodnight 21:33:17 itidus20: Anyway, the basic idea is that you perform actions on the entire LHS and the entire RHS 21:33:43 You can't just operate on little pieces 21:33:46 > ((*).(*)) 1 2 3 21:33:47 6 21:33:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:34:09 oerjan: I need to come up with a name for that 21:34:20 > (1 * (*)) <$> [0..3] <*> [0..3] 21:34:21 [0,0,0,0,0,1,2,3,0,2,4,6,0,3,6,9] 21:34:35 oerjan: I know! Jukebox Combinator 21:35:06 @src (.) 21:35:06 (f . g) x = f (g x) 21:35:07 NB: In lambdabot, (.) = fmap 21:35:16 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:35:28 heh they added a clarification :P 21:35:34 @src flip 21:35:34 flip f x y = f y x 21:35:38 but not to that one 21:35:42 what's flip 21:35:42 :t flip 21:35:43 forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 21:35:45 elliott, Phantom_Hoover datehuss 21:35:53 Oh 21:36:14 > ((*).(*)) 10 10 10 21:36:16 1000 21:36:24 :t flip fmap (flip ($)) 21:36:25 forall b a b1. (((a -> b1) -> b1) -> b) -> a -> b 21:36:28 oops 21:36:52 :t flip (fmap.(flip ($))) 21:36:52 forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 21:37:09 @type (((*).).(.(*))) 21:37:10 forall b a. (Num b, Num a) => ((a -> a) -> b) -> a -> b -> b 21:37:17 Do you know it is possible in Windows, to copy disk images, using the DefineDosDevice API? Hopefully whoever designs ReactOS should know about this too. 21:37:19 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:37:42 can expressions be considered as a list of terms to be summed together in any order? 21:38:01 (((*).).(.(*))) ((*).(*)) 10 10 10 21:38:04 > (((*).).(.(*))) ((*).(*)) 10 10 10 21:38:06 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ((a -> a) -> a -> a) 21:38:06 arising fro... 21:38:19 hmm 21:38:20 and in such a list, 2 terms which are inverse of each other are negated.. 21:38:39 itidus20: Sum sort of has a well-defined meaning 21:38:43 ListOfTermsLHS = ListOfTermsRHS 21:38:57 itidus20: yes, that's saying that addition is a commutative group operation 21:39:01 I mean, if the equality is true, then yes 21:39:14 if you allow for a term to have a sign 21:39:15 Also what oerjan said 21:39:31 then subtraction can be performed with addition of course 21:39:54 you can do the same for products as long as there are no zeros, because multiplication is also a commutative group operation except on zeros 21:40:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:40:47 but suppose you want to change one of the coefficients in one of these lists, then you have to change the coefficient in every term in both lists right? 21:41:32 itidus20: generally what you do is to apply the _same_ operation to the LHS and the RHS, with parentheses around everything, and then you simplify each side 21:42:02 but you can't really do addition on groups i guess 21:42:02 > (((*).).(.(*))) 2 90 3 21:42:04 6 21:42:56 This is my new definition for multiplication forever 21:43:01 -!- sllide has joined. 21:43:03 like you can't say....( 5 + 6 + 4)+3 = (8+9+7) 21:43:07 hehe 21:43:18 NihilistDandy: wtf happened to the 90 21:43:22 are esolangs really this popular? 21:43:30 oerjan: It doesn't do anything 21:43:33 > (((*).).(.(*))) 2 150 3 21:43:34 sllide: this counts as popular? 21:43:34 6 21:43:42 there's more people on the wiki than on here, by far 21:43:43 :t (((*).).(.(*))) 21:43:44 forall b a. (Num b, Num a) => ((a -> a) -> b) -> a -> b -> b 21:43:57 i know, i was talking about esolangs in general not this channel compared to the wiki 21:44:04 aha 21:44:10 * NihilistDandy nods 21:44:18 sllide: Well... they're popular enough to have a smallish wiki and IRC channel, yes :-P 21:44:26 good 21:44:27 oerjan: SO POINTFREE 21:44:32 i am thinking of creating a esolang 21:44:39 sllide: Although I must warn you we're off-topic most of the time. 21:44:44 even better 21:45:35 sllide, indeed, being on-topic is generally the sign of a noob. 21:45:46 on-topic is better 21:45:47 But the primary sign of that is being Phantom_Hoover. 21:45:48 it's just harder 21:45:51 and off-topic is often interesting 21:46:01 ais523: but but, @ 21:46:07 elliott, it's this time dilation! 21:46:13 elliott: I consider @ ontopi 21:46:14 *ontopic 21:46:16 Phantom_Hoover, and refusing to go off-topic makes you anti social 21:46:22 like you can't say....( 5 + 6 + 4)+3 = (8+9+7) <-- nope, that would be distribution which is a special relationship between addition and multiplication 21:46:24 sllide: it makes you ais523 21:46:25 wait what's the topic 21:46:35 i shall remember that 21:46:42 sllide, nah, antisocial doesn't worth that way on IRC. 21:46:48 coppro: bromide 21:46:53 hating brainfuck derivatives makes Phantom_Hoover antisocial 21:47:03 hmm, I like how we complain about various minor character traits as being vaguely ais523-esque, but calling someone ais523 would be an unwarranted compliment in 99 percent of cases 21:47:03 i like this channel 21:47:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of iodide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:47:11 poor guy must be so confused 21:47:24 elliott: I, umm, think that's a compliment? 21:47:31 ais523: my thoughts exactly 21:47:34 ais523, no it's a complement. 21:47:45 complemint 21:47:53 complete mint flavour diagram freshness 21:47:53 what 21:47:56 so is the design of a esolang hard? 21:48:00 i am brainstorming atm 21:48:06 not even knowing what is comming next 21:48:08 sllide: making a bad esolang is really easy 21:48:10 sllide: no. see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Shameful 21:48:12 making a good esolang is pretty hard 21:48:13 cool 21:48:21 elliott: I consider @ ontopi <-- what did the ontopus do to you 21:48:26 my goal isnt to make it a good language 21:48:33 if you make another boring brainfuck derivative, everyone will shout at you 21:48:36 I mean, good at being an esolang 21:48:37 oerjan: thank you for showcasing your character trait to sllide. 21:48:52 sllide: Define multiplication as (((*).).(.(*))) 21:48:53 do I have a character trait 21:48:57 monqy: monqy 21:49:12 i was thinking about something befunge like 21:49:23 sllide, always a bad sign. 21:49:28 Is it? 21:49:29 be careful or you'll make another boring befunge derivative 21:49:36 That's more interesting than thinkign about something BF-like 21:49:37 yeah i know 21:49:41 elliott: yw 21:49:41 I was thinking of making an English-like conlang 21:49:49 elliott, only because it's not been done to death. 21:49:50 well the only thing i want is it to be 2d like bf 21:50:00 i like that concept 21:50:00 sllide, oh, that's OK. 21:50:02 Phantom_Hoover: If there were a billion Feather derivatives that'd be boring too 21:50:05 oerjan: oh ok 21:50:08 puns and proving things TC, that's my shtick 21:50:08 sllide: Careful abbreviating Befunge as BF 21:50:11 BF means brainfuck :P 21:50:26 -!- coppro has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of bromide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:50:27 ah 21:50:31 befunge and brainfuck "one and the same" 21:50:33 oerjan: can you prove my toaster TC... it can't duplicate things, but it can toast them 21:50:35 elliott, but also the design of Brainfuck is also far more amenable to making terrible derivatives. 21:50:54 BF is generally used as an abbreviation for "brainfuck" 21:50:58 because that word needs abbreviation 21:51:05 Phantom_Hoover: you miscapitalised "brainfuck" 21:51:07 Phantom_Hoover: I'll just replace all the >'s with % and I'll be interesting 21:51:17 ais523: it doesn't really need abbreviation 21:51:20 i am so bad at being creative 21:51:22 ais523, I couldn't care less. 21:51:27 elliott: it's painful to type 21:51:36 i cant even come up with a project name 21:51:37 ais523: does it physically hurt you to type out curses 21:51:39 elliott: well duplication might be simulated. can you do _two_ toastings looking like jesus? 21:51:48 elliott: no, I'm fine with them in an appropriate context 21:51:52 sllide: that's not lack of creativity, that's one of the two hard problems of computer sciience. 21:52:01 sllide: the others are caching and fencepost errors 21:52:02 but I don't use them very often, so they aren't ingrained in muscle memory 21:52:07 You miscapitalise most sentences. Please stop being prescriptivist about things that aren't even prescribed, kthxbye 21:52:10 ais523: try swearing a lot 21:52:15 elliott: I rarely have problems naming things 21:52:21 Phantom_Hoover: try not whining so much about people who correct your capitalisation of bf 21:52:22 elliott: lol 21:52:25 i hate fencepost errors 21:52:36 Phantom_Hoover: I have correct spelling and grammar for IRC 21:52:42 elliott, why, they're the ones correcting me. 21:52:43 the grammar I use is consistent, it's just different from normal written English 21:52:55 different == wrong 21:53:01 i remember having one in the graphics driver of my OS 21:53:15 Phantom_Hoover: because you went into a full-blown rant when you incorrectly corrected an esowiki page's capitalisation of it and I fixed it 21:53:43 ais523: English really needs a syntax-tree nesting limit enforced at gunpoint 21:53:48 Phantom_Hoover: If there were a billion Feather derivatives that'd be boring too <-- there can only be one feather derivative in recorded history, although it might change 21:53:59 elliott, and I don't want to go into another one, so please shut up about it. 21:54:04 ais523: anyone who disagrees will be shown [[Checkout]] 21:54:05 elliott: why? I'd be more likely to break it than almost anyone else 21:54:26 Phantom_Hoover: You're really overreacting, btw. 21:54:41 sllide: you have an OS? let me tell you about how much better @ is... 21:54:51 elliott, I'm shutting up about it; please return the favour. 21:54:53 it wasnt a os 21:54:59 it was a attempt at a os 21:55:04 So's @ ;-) 21:55:12 -!- pumpkin has joined. 21:55:18 elliott: it's painful to type <-- just write some slash fiction for practice and that should pass 21:55:21 elliott: different OSes are good for different purposes, I don't think you could use @ for hard-realtime control of a microcontroller 21:55:31 what... 21:55:34 ais523: I wouldn't use an OS for hard-realtime control of a microcontroller 21:55:45 elliott: if it's doing more than one thing, you need at least a trivial OS 21:55:55 oerjan: careful, he'll rage/part 21:56:09 > (/) fiction 21:56:10 Not in scope: `fiction' 21:56:15 I know that last time I programmed a DSP, I used a pre-empting OS where each process had a number and pre-empted lower-numbered processes 21:56:29 ais523: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell I think you could get @ to be hard-realtime 21:56:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:56:35 oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction 21:56:37 You'd have to not run most of the standard system though 21:56:47 But you could keep, like, the equivalent of the language stdlib 21:56:52 As long as its performance guarantees were OK for you 21:56:56 (you could replace the language itself) 21:57:02 `addquote oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction 21:57:03 574) oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction 21:57:28 I like how right after sllide entered the channel went insane 21:57:38 i tend to do that 21:57:39 So ais523 is a clay tureen? 21:58:06 elliott: we're that insane anyway, but someone new joining increases activity, so it becomes more obvious 21:58:12 NihilistDandy: I'm not sure what you're referencing 21:58:38 I guess it depends what you mean by "great" 21:58:52 i like a bit of chaos 21:59:16 hmm, I wonder if I can modify that dataflow model to handle mutable references 21:59:39 I must salvage my terribleness 22:01:08 actually i have 2 goals, one is to have a 2d non liniar programming language, and a way to add graphical i/o later on 22:01:49 oerjan: careful, he'll rage/part <-- oh right, should get him addicted first 22:02:14 hey fungot, increase our standards 22:02:15 elliott: just be patient, the answer, the fact remained except a note of this, since it just looks so 8ad! 22:02:16 oh, I only just got the joke 22:02:20 sorry 22:02:30 ais523: wait, there was a joke? 22:02:32 fungot: you're not helping 22:02:32 elliott: for a while it was frustrating. they will come a day 22:02:33 -!- Vivio-chan has joined. 22:02:35 ~ship 22:02:36 * Vivio-chan ships GreaseMonkey/ineiros <3 <3 22:02:41 I 22:02:41 elliott: glad to know it wasn't intentional 22:02:44 -!- Vivio-chan has quit (Client Quit). 22:02:46 Lymee: other things that aren't helping: you 22:02:52 elliott: Yeah, I can't imagine @ not being flexible enough to be able to remove/replace any impediments to realtime. 22:02:54 ais523: oh, I see it now 22:02:56 ais523, go write the slashfic. Now. 22:02:59 I think, probably 22:03:03 Lymee: you have a bot ready to bring into channels just in case that happens/ 22:03:07 this is terrible how did everything suddenly become terrible 22:03:12 ais523, um. Nope! 22:03:15 what a chanel,,, 22:03:21 monqy: help 22:03:27 Lymee: I suppose it wouldn't have taken that long to write one 22:03:33 Heck, worst case scenario you'd make your hard realtime thing be the only thing running, disable the scheduler, and voila. 22:03:36 and it could have been done in the time since oerjan's commetn 22:03:38 *comment 22:03:48 You're running on bare hardware, except less painful. 22:03:50 pikhq_: hard realtime stuff often does need a scheduler 22:03:52 pikhq_: I think it's kind of cheating 22:03:53 just a very deterministic one 22:04:04 because you're not really running @ any more 22:04:11 elliott: Yes, this would be cheating. 22:04:16 you're running some other OS that happens to use some of @'s libraries 22:04:19 elliott: Hence why I said "worst case". 22:04:23 which may involve its object creation stuff 22:04:25 right 22:04:51 whats @? 22:04:52 hi im back 22:04:55 help???? 22:04:59 @ is certainly targeted at things that aren't any kind of realtime, with one person sitting at them, with a fairly decent processor on it 22:05:00 More practically, you'd probably just make the scheduler give hard realtime guarantees. 22:05:06 monqy: channel explode, 22:05:08 sllide: ah 22:05:18 sllide: will you not ask if I say don't ask? 22:05:27 sure 22:05:36 is it that bad? 22:05:39 or just hard to explain 22:05:43 sllide: ask me again slightly later when I have nothing to do that isn't explaining @ 22:05:45 so like 22:05:46 in five minutes 22:05:52 okay 22:06:04 sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour 22:06:12 * oerjan hides 22:06:18 * elliott hunts down, murders oerjan 22:06:21 standard policy 22:06:29 elliott: Which might even already exist — there's a chance you'd want some things for the end user being realtime... (though I can't really think of much that's *hard* realtime for that) 22:06:31 elliott: at least your city isn't rioting at the moment 22:06:32 i see 22:06:58 I live far enough from the centre that it hasn't affected me other than preventing me travelling easily 22:07:03 but it's still annoying 22:07:04 ais523: why don't people live in fireproof buildings; hypothesis: they're idiots 22:07:13 `addquote sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour 22:07:14 575) sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour 22:07:16 elliott: because completely fireproofing a building is really hard 22:07:18 what i am saying is, riots only affect people who live in stupid buildings. 22:07:21 next question 22:07:27 elliott: Which might even already exist — there's a chance you'd want some things for the end user being realtime... (though I can't really think of much that's *hard* realtime for that) 22:07:39 pikhq_: well user input always gets processed immediately in the standard desktop @ 22:07:40 elliott: hey i was carefully using british spelling for you 22:07:59 elliott: at least your city isn't rioting at the moment 22:08:00 elliott: Pretty sure that's still soft realtime. 22:08:02 because otherwise you don't really have many options if something starts hogging your CPU 22:08:03 also 22:08:15 Silly ais, elliott doesn't live in a city. 22:08:17 because it's really annoying to have your cursor start moving slower when your system is under load 22:08:18 But eh, you can overkill that just fine. :) 22:08:33 Phantom_Hoover: has the rioting reached Scotland yet? I haven't heard any reports of it, but am not sure I would if it had 22:08:43 ais523, nothing I've heard of. 22:08:43 ais523: in Glasgow, they call that Tuesday 22:08:49 That too. 22:09:05 oh no, have I become an agent of Edinburgh unwittingly? 22:09:10 Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. 22:09:10 I think in London/Birmingham/Manchester, the rioters are really just trying to create a diversion so that they can burgle things 22:09:17 elliott, MWAHAHAHAHAHA 22:09:27 RESISTANCE IS FUTILE 22:09:29 `addquote Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. 22:09:30 576) Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. 22:09:35 `addquote Phantom_Hoover: has the rioting reached Scotland yet? I haven't heard any reports of it, but am not sure I would if it had ais523: in Glasgow, they call that Tuesday Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. 22:09:36 577) Phantom_Hoover: has the rioting reached Scotland yet? I haven't heard any reports of it, but am not sure I would if it had ais523: in Glasgow, they call that Tuesday Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. 22:09:42 oerjan: oops........ 22:09:42 oops 22:09:46 which is better........ 22:09:50 I PREFER OERJAN'S 22:09:54 `delquote 577 22:09:55 ​*poof* 22:09:56 so do I, i think 22:09:57 `quote Glasgow 22:09:59 576) Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. 22:09:59 It doesn't have those two unfunny idiots. 22:10:05 lol 22:10:51 ok i think i finally caught up 22:10:55 ais523: have a nightmare: you're remotely administrating an @ system, when suddenly, every UI element living on it stops updating........ and responding to input 22:10:59 are we done exploding 22:11:10 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:11:15 monqy: MAYBE 22:11:20 ais523: you discard them and open a remote emergency console object........... and it doesn't load 22:11:33 ~sequel~ 22:11:39 elliott: sounds like a connection drop? 22:11:41 you call the hosting company and ask them to check on the physical machine......... 22:11:44 and it's NOT THERE 22:11:55 Sounds like a quantum teleportation to the moon. 22:12:02 ais523: I was trying to imply it was completely frozen, which in @ is a situation as difficult to create as it is to get out of 22:12:10 this is my nightmare every night 22:12:40 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:13:02 the physical machine is not there? that sounds like trouble 22:13:11 ~hollywood sequel~ 22:13:12 the machine 22:13:13 was NEVER THERE 22:13:19 :0 22:13:20 the hosting company check their records... 22:13:21 and YOU 22:13:22 DON'T 22:13:23 EXIST 22:13:29 fuck, everything i come up with is almost identical like befunge 22:13:34 you look at your body 22:13:36 and discover IT DOESN'T EXIST 22:13:43 then you retreat into your conscious mind 22:13:45 only to find out that 22:13:45 IT 22:13:46 DOESN'T 22:13:47 EXIST 22:13:49 roll credits 22:14:09 only to find.. the movie doesn't exist 22:14:10 The director... 22:14:16 DOESN'T EXIST 22:14:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 22:14:32 Dear diary: today itidus20 and Phantom_Hoover made the same joke simultaneously. Today my life fulfilled itself. 22:14:53 I don't have a diary 22:14:56 ais523: actually, I wonder why Linux systems can freeze up totally? 22:15:01 elliott: hmm, your life did? not itidus20 and Phantom_Hoover? 22:15:03 I can only assume the scheduler is really dumb 22:15:15 So you stop to count the number of things which have gone wrong, and discover that integers do not exist 22:15:16 elliott: presumably a lock on something really important doesn't get released 22:15:24 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:15:28 ais523: but you can lock up a linux system without running into any kind of critical bug 22:15:33 not to mention, a kernel panic deliberately locks up the system 22:15:34 elliott, actually I was aiming for a subversion of the M. Night Shyamalan joke, but it obviously fell flat. 22:15:36 ais523: just start a load of memory-hogging and CPU-hogging processes 22:15:38 Phantom_Hoover: No, I got that 22:15:39 and just loops with the caps lock light flashing 22:15:43 haven't you read the whole soap opera about some guy's heroic efforts at making a sane scheduler for linux? 22:15:51 olsner: BFS? 22:15:56 I don't know that it avoids total lockups 22:16:01 it'd be better if it were actually written in BF 22:16:02 I mean, obviously total lockups 22:16:05 aren't total lockups 22:16:12 because it's still running the really intensive processes 22:16:18 but why is it never switching to your UI long enough for it to do anything? 22:16:36 why does a bunch of processes being really demanding of resources deprive other processes that don't even want much? 22:17:19 oh, I see, you're talking about thrashing, etc? 22:17:26 yes 22:17:29 I've had that happen on Windows too 22:17:38 yes, but I generally expect Linux to be slightly saner 22:17:40 and BSDs too 22:17:41 I wonder if it can happen on OS X? my guess is yes, but I'm not sure 22:17:45 yes 22:17:59 I mean, obviously it's easy to write an OS naively that has this problem, but I don't see why you can't solve it 22:18:15 It might slow down things that actually do really intensive stuff, but those are generally servers and it is OK for servers to use different schedulers 22:18:44 I guess in Linux's case it's because X is a normal process and it'd be hard to do nicely? 22:19:02 elliott: when you get a lock up that hard, does control-alt-F1 work well? 22:19:06 Phantom_Hoover: I'd be very surprised if setting X + your WM + your terminal to realtime priority would solve the issue 22:19:09 No. 22:19:13 ais523: Sometimes. 22:19:19 ais523: If it does, it is generally really slow. 22:19:23 ais523, I've had lockouts much worse than that in the past. 22:19:25 Like, faster than your GUI, but still hugely lagged. 22:19:32 I turned memory overcommit off, and it helped 22:19:34 as in it can take over a minute to log in 22:19:43 ais523: but now you can't run SBCL :) 22:19:44 last time I accidentally wrote a program that took up all of memory, I just got an "out of memory" error 22:20:06 (I was trying to brute-force a travelling salesman problem solution, using A*) 22:20:19 using all of an @ system's memory would be Fun 22:20:21 (the number of places to visit was small enough that I thought it might be bruteforceable, but it turns out it wasn't) 22:20:33 elliott: you clearly need an rlimit equivalent 22:20:46 indeed 22:20:59 ais523: that's just "only giving code an allocator that keeps track of how much space it's used so far", etc. 22:21:09 yep 22:21:19 What's the nonshittiest way to share big files for free? Like rapidshare and such only ... not terrible. 22:21:25 cpu time limiting might he harder 22:21:29 Gregor: mediafire is what I use, because it's... acceptable. 22:21:36 Gregor: I ran into that problem recently; in the end, we used netcat + md5 22:21:39 *md5sum 22:21:45 Gregor: It has ads and it's shittyish, but it doesn't force you to wait before downloading 22:21:51 It's the best of the bunch since filebin.ca went down 22:22:13 mediafire doesn't work well with wget 22:22:18 how big is big 22:22:35 monqy, DF-region-file big? 22:22:48 monqy: 200M 22:23:02 i am going outside smoke a cig and hope something comes up in my mind while i'm doing that 22:23:04 Gregor: Yeah, go with Mediafire 22:23:10 ais523: You can get it to work, it's just awkward 22:23:14 But for two hundred megs, [browser] should be fine 22:23:25 elliott: Okidoke. 22:23:36 Gregor: There's also email, if you have lenient enough servers 22:24:20 sllide, well-established technique. 22:24:21 Gregor: I tried email first, the other end's gmail rejected it because I was sending a tarball and one of the files in it had a .bat extension 22:24:25 which is, umm, a little silly 22:24:30 Just look at all the languages... nooga... erm. 22:25:03 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, oklopol liked SADOL moderately. 22:25:43 elliott, I didn't know he made it, though. 22:29:02 ais523: Then can you do something such as reverse the file before sending? 22:29:21 I try to avoid PMs on IRC 22:29:22 and there was that nutter who kept trying to get me on google voice or whatnot 22:29:22 deeply unpleasant 22:29:23 Sgeo: is this the hacker guy 22:29:37 8 bits per character should be enough for anyone! 22:29:38 ah 22:29:49 elliott, hm? 22:30:06 zzo38: I could have done, but we'd already set up netcat by then 22:30:09 Sgeo: is that the guy who thought notice was hacking 22:30:27 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 22:30:28 for instance nations who use most characters should have only 1byte, and chinese can take 6bytes for a sign, since their sign tells you much more than 10bytes of long word in 1byte 22:30:42 elliott, I don't think there is such a person, but at one point I thought jasonmxristos thought that 22:30:51 elliott: are you busy quoting unintelligable people? 22:30:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:31:01 ais523: it's #jesus, the #esoteric away from #esoteric 22:31:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:31:23 the tough questions why does God do such and such 22:31:26 definitely the tough questions 22:33:13 lol 22:34:41 i can do better than that 22:34:50 :) 22:36:02 From whose tradition did you start to refer to god in capitalized pronouns? The people in the bible were largely illiterate and thus they couldn't say pronouns with a capitalization. When did this start? 22:36:22 is the kind of question I can think up when I am looking to show off that i am tougher than warg 22:36:33 ok Sgeo i must ask 22:36:44 is #jesus ever anything BUT reiterations of "debates" people have had about a thousand times 22:37:06 It'd be way better if all the atheists just shut up. 22:37:06 because i love it, it is like groundhog day, if that were an IRC channel, and not a film starring bill murray. or si bill murray in#jesus/s?????????/// 22:37:08 itidus20: actually, nouns/pronouns used to be capitalised in English 22:37:11 "I" still is 22:37:19 Phantom_Hoover: totally, they're so annoying 22:37:19 but many lost their capitalisation over time 22:37:20 how can #jesus ever NOT be reiterations of debates 22:37:26 you can't prove anything empirically re: religion 22:37:29 so you can't get anywhere 22:37:33 Patashu: it could be a circlejerk 22:37:40 that's kind of the POINT of #jesus 22:37:45 it's meant to be like a christian hangout 22:37:50 but all these atheists are ruining it for the rest of us 22:37:51 Well, except the ones who just gently egg them on. 22:37:56 haha 22:38:15 elliott: i.e. the atheists are ruining the show? 22:38:23 olsner: precisely. 22:38:36 I kind of expected atheists to create some action, but maybe they are boring atheists 22:38:46 olsner: it's mostly just 22:38:53 olsner: "HURR YOU CAN'T EMPIRICALLY PROVE GOD - I WIN" 22:39:04 you can't empirically disprove God either 22:39:09 olsner: and then responding to people who talk with "(ha ha this is funny because christians are stupid)" 22:39:20 I like to argue. I do it for the thrill much like a hunter shooting down pidgeons. 22:39:25 ais523: No, but you can't empirically disprove that you're a figment of my imagination. 22:39:30 ais523: nor Russell's teapot, but there are far simpler reasons to reject god 22:39:50 pikhq_: and why would I want to? 22:39:55 what i am saying is, exterminating atheists worldwide to make #jesus a more entertaining place: a reasonable proposition? 22:40:02 elliott: no 22:40:07 just ban them from #jesus 22:40:11 pikhq_: I already did that one. 22:40:32 elliott: Totally reasonable 22:40:35 ais523: yes 22:40:45 elliott: You first. 22:40:47 olsner: they're allowed there which is STUPID 22:40:53 pikhq_: no im a christian now 22:41:08 elliott: The offer still stands. 22:41:13 elliott: just... unallow them 22:41:23 olsner: i cant im not op :( 22:41:26 injustices 22:41:34 -!- kwertii has joined. 22:41:48 you need to produce the image of a good christian so you get op 22:41:50 if I were op I would provide a stable and caring environment for people who talk about how they burn books to circlejerk in peace 22:42:03 olsner: but Sgeo was almost op and is athiest..... more athie than anyone else in there................... 22:42:15 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:42:20 maybe complaining some about the atheists would help giva a "good guy for cleaning up the channel" impression 22:42:46 "Yeah, man, those atheists should be crucified!" 22:42:53 Upside down 22:43:05 spinning 22:43:19 olsner: Sgeo would out me because he's a jerk 22:43:20 cross on rotating platter 22:43:25 the eighth seven sin: being an unfunny atheist in a christian forum 22:43:27 nope, just more ideas that look like befunge >.< 22:43:29 * DanFred (~asd@0x55531367.adsl.cybercity.dk) has joined #jesus 22:43:33 real christianity in ##christian 22:43:33 here you are banned for saying killing is not christian 22:43:37 pro 22:43:52 oh man is ##christian like #jesus but more so 22:43:54 NihilistDandy: What, and tarnish St. Peter? 22:44:18 pikhq_: I'm willing to make a case that Peter was the first ever atheist. :D 22:44:49 No wait, fuck that, I'm eating chicken now 22:44:52 * Users on ##christian: elliott Sgeo Phantom_Hoover DanFred ^peter^ ljrbot luke-jr sec^nd luke-jr|otg @ChanServ 22:44:56 monqy: initial evidence says "yes" 22:45:08 it looks brilliant 22:45:21 elliott: is ChanServ christian? 22:45:23 Astonishing considering what Peter did. 22:45:28 ais523: i didn't know that by the way about pronouns... cool stuff 22:45:33 ais523: ChanServ is literally jesus. (this is the best religion ok.) 22:45:58 ^peter^, incidentally, I am aware that your demands that I prove I exist are an attempt to distract me from your failure to provide *any evidence* (not a proof, merely evidence that meets the mainstream definition of what evidence is) of the form you claimed was available using basic research 22:46:01 Sometimes I don't know which way to go on the "i" 22:46:11 YOU ARE RUINING THE CHANNEL LUPINE :/ 22:46:34 `don'taddquotebutireallywantto christianity is not a badge you buy in USA with your gun purchase 22:46:35 No output. 22:51:11 so what is this so-called real christianity 22:51:19 monqy: catholicism 22:51:52 do they ever quibble about which flavour of christianity is right 22:51:55 "Real Christianity", who knows.... maybe... 22:52:34 I am banned from this channel for saying that soldiers are evil because they kill and Jesus is pacifism 22:52:39 monqy, constantly 22:52:44 pacifism wafers 22:52:49 Sgeo: he means hash hash christian 22:52:54 Oh 22:52:58 I meant both 22:53:08 #jesus bickers all the time 22:53:18 I'm not a ##catholic or ##christian regular 22:53:24 Someone who doesn't have predisposed lament bias against them ask him what he thinks qualia are 22:53:36 wait now danfred is pacifism??? I thought last he said that killing is christian??????? 22:53:41 hlep???????? 22:53:46 monqy: here you are banned for saying killing is not christian 22:53:52 yes 22:54:03 am I misinterpret that 22:54:12 that was in jesus 22:54:23 right 22:54:32 we've even weighed bodies before and after death to see if anything changes 22:54:34 and then what was "soldiers are evil because they kill" about 22:54:37 apparently this is a test of dualism 22:54:42 monqy: he hates hash-jesus 22:54:46 he was making a complaint 22:54:52 we've even weighed bodies before and after death to see if anything changes 22:54:52 ok i think 22:54:55 we need to all appreciate how this is 22:54:58 the best test for dualism possible 22:55:24 The weight cannot test for dualism, that is dumb. 22:55:28 the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis 22:55:32 elliott: it was how phlogiston was proved to not exist 22:55:36 or at least, have a negative weight 22:55:49 phlogiston = the matter->spirit bridge?? 22:55:51 SCIENCE SAYS YES 22:55:56 `addquote the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis 22:55:57 577) the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis 22:56:06 monqy: Yes, if you assume souls have both location and mass... but how can you know either one is correct? 22:56:18 -!- myndzi has joined. 22:56:25 "Is the sentence, "This is a load of bull" really necessary for the scholarly development of the article?" --[[Talk:Phlogiston theory]] 22:56:25 zzo38: maybe that's what they were testing. secretly. 22:56:53 lupine_85, I'm going to agree with Phantom_Hoover on this. I'd think opening up the brain, and seeing only neurons, and their parts, etc., is a better evidence against dualism 22:57:03 Sgeo: you realise that dualism could be implemented in the laws of physics 22:57:14 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:57:24 just run a process over everything that looks like a brain and copy the information you get out of them to the spirit world 22:57:36 elliott, that would be zombie world stuff 22:57:40 maybe like 22:57:40 Not back and forth communication 22:57:42 avoided a race condition 22:57:47 [asterisk]maybe that like 22:57:47 elliott: I don't think that disproves dualism though, but it does show what dualism is not. Of course that does not mean dualism exists either; it just means that if it does, it is not that. 22:57:51 maybe god is just a really bad programmer 22:58:07 Sgeo: well ok. 22:58:08 But "just run a process over everything that looks like a brain and copy the information you get out of them to the spirit world" is absurd. 22:58:34 okay, anyone here got some ideas for me? 22:58:42 sllide: ideas? 22:58:47 for a esolang 22:58:52 sllide is here for making an esolang 22:59:00 yup 22:59:02 zzo38: you can do that in a computer simulation, so you can do it in a universe 22:59:04 sllide, make an RTS themed esolang 22:59:07 or a roguelike themed esolang 22:59:10 sllide: I don't know. You can look at the list of ideas and make up something else new 22:59:11 or a religion themed esolang 22:59:18 or a civilization/SMAC themed esolang 22:59:20 zzo38, where is that list? 22:59:21 elliott: Yes you probably can, but that does not mean it is not absurd 22:59:28 sllide: In wiki 22:59:30 speaking of religion, what about a political themed esolang? 22:59:32 okay 22:59:36 In esolang wiki 22:59:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas 22:59:48 haha politics 22:59:57 lupine is really stupid 23:00:06 made up of politicians, who each have a voting function 23:00:09 Elect President Democrat 23:00:13 zzo38, thanks 23:00:15 when a value is put up, all politicians vote aye or nay and it either passes or fails... 23:00:18 hmm, this is sounding like a neural network 23:00:22 Vote on Proposition 25 23:00:32 oops hmm 23:00:56 heh bugmaker 23:01:40 I dislike tehz 23:01:46 is this bad 23:01:49 Democrats Propose Presidential Candidate Obama. Republicans Propose Presidental Candidate McCain. Elect President. Move President to White House. 23:01:52 no that is called being human monqy 23:01:55 or being a monkey 23:01:56 as it may be 23:02:13 are monkeys subhuman 23:02:14 While in office, uhmm 23:02:16 Phantom_Hoover: We need to get ^peter^ banned because it's really annoying to highlight him 23:02:49 I think monkeys are unhuman. That is, everything not human is unhuman, and human is not unhuman. It is my opinion. 23:03:12 However, note that "unhuman" should not imply anything other than just this, please! 23:03:12 Senate Votes on x > 5. 23:03:35 if x > 5 wins the ballot... 23:04:31 NihilistDandy++ 23:04:32 NihilistDandy: have you tried p ? 23:04:36 don't mind me sllide... i have many unbaked ideas 23:04:43 haha 23:04:45 elliott bc that's what yhvh had writ in Gen. 1. 23:04:45 One idea I had about esolang is the "Crab's Jukebox"-style programming language. 23:04:45 ah 23:04:51 oerjan: It doesn't work 23:04:58 aww 23:04:58 His name starts with "^" 23:05:01 i was thinking of something related with images 23:05:08 Sgeo: Please ask lament exactly how he defines qualia it's insanely irritating. 23:05:21 elliott, you can't do it? 23:05:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of iodide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:05:34 NihilistDandy: well i'm asking if you've _tried_. i believe some clients ignore non-alphanums for selecting nicks to expand to 23:05:38 Sgeo: no, because he dislikes me and won't respond with the full sincerity he might give you. 23:05:42 or at least the sixty percent sincerity. 23:05:50 oerjan: I did try. Sadly, no joy. T_T 23:05:51 ideally one of the regular Christians would ask. 23:05:58 (of the slightly less bizarre variety) 23:06:23 Also, ^peter^'s weird spacing drives me insane 23:06:35 I think debates about qualia, intelligence, emotions, pain and so on would be improved by a healthy dose of computer science/programming knowledge 23:06:37 Patashu: r u srs 23:06:50 qualia is that which is percieved yet cannot be communicated directly. you can only assume that it exists 23:07:03 elliott, sure, it'd be like every debate having itidus20. 23:07:08 i think i'm going with images 23:07:12 elliot a little 23:07:19 ,addquote Patashu, I am a genius computer scientist with special skills in AI. and yes it can help 23:07:25 itidus20, on that subject, get into #jesus already lupine is running it into the ground. 23:07:27 lol 23:07:30 Patashu, I am a genius computer scientist with special skills in AI. and yes it can help 23:07:32 damnit 23:07:34 itidus20: YES GET INTO #JESUS WE NEED YOU 23:07:35 I just got disproven 23:07:58 god 23:08:00 wow im a genious computer scientist too 23:08:01 this is my favourite channel 23:08:02 not this one, jesus 23:08:06 monqy: are you in jesus... if not why not 23:08:10 elliott: fun situation in the Oracle vs. Google court case; Oracle are claiming that autosaves of an email from a Google employee to a Google lawyer don't fall under attorney-client privilege because the To: filed wasn't filled in when the autosave was taken 23:08:12 oops i need to focus on esolang topic 23:08:15 i dont kwon 23:08:15 you're not... misisng out 23:08:20 ais523: amazing 23:08:21 Where can I get these "special skills in AI"? 23:08:21 should i 23:08:22 join 23:08:24 *To: field 23:08:24 jesus 23:08:26 monqy: yes its mandatory 23:08:30 NihilistDandy: bible 23:08:31 elliott: I'm not entirely sure if their reasoning is correct or not 23:08:36 ^peter^, ye of little faith 23:08:36 lament, and you do have qualia 23:08:37 or maybe a person walking and everything it encounters is executing 23:08:39 this combined as "ye of little qualia" 23:08:40 mentally 23:08:41 elliott: Oh, duh. What a stupid question. 23:08:44 after all, the autosaves /weren't/ sent to a lawyer... 23:08:55 <^peter^> Free-man Dan does speak in tongues, English and danish at least. 23:08:56 ok 23:09:00 we need a quote base just for that other channel 23:09:04 lament is just a bot 23:09:08 that i've mentioned by name enough times that if i do it again ais523 might get annoyed 23:09:14 itidus20: wat 23:09:16 im feeling uncomfortable 23:09:21 elliott: I can be generally annoyed anyway 23:09:23 lupine is assuming that lament is a person and hence has a conciousness 23:09:28 monqy: i am going to cyberbully you into joining 23:09:30 ;_; 23:09:34 ais523: well, yes 23:09:38 elliott: it is done 23:09:45 ais523: I'm just attempting to keep it at nothing greater than "moderately fuming" 23:09:51 but we know better that lament is a bot, and hence is highly unlikely to have qualia 23:09:54 monqy: I'm gonna call all your friends and tell them you're not cool unless you join 23:09:55 monqy: i am going to cyberbully you into joining <--- I'll report it to Facebook! 23:09:58 I think we should all consider solipsist missionaries now because it is very funny. 23:09:58 any more than my toaster oven 23:09:59 Phantom_Hoover: MY 23:09:59 FUCKING 23:10:00 IDEA 23:10:02 OMG 23:10:03 YOU 23:10:03 ARE 23:10:07 SO 23:10:09 COPYRIGHT 23:10:15 :D 23:10:28 YOU NEVER SAID IT WAS FUNNY TO ME ;____________-; 23:10:48 elliott: just need to get lupine to try a turing test on lament 23:10:55 ^a reverse turing test 23:10:58 itidus20: You must join and make it happen it is mandatory. 23:11:09 too late now, maybe tomorrow I'll join #jesus to see what the fuzz is about 23:12:02 lament is a bot made by bill gates to spy on rms 23:12:21 bool pain=true; that's pain? 23:12:22 float pain=1000000; that's a lot of pain? 23:12:37 I take it back 23:12:38 I take it baaaack 23:12:40 just make him stop 23:12:47 Patashu: jesus never stops 23:12:53 itidus20: you _do_ know lament is a sometimes regular here? 23:13:00 I always think ^peter^ is agreeing with whoever's above hi 23:13:01 oerjan: not any more, thanks to me :D 23:13:02 *him 23:13:21 oerjan " lament, and you do have qualia" 23:13:24 * Sgeo braces for jason 23:13:29 i said "sometimes". 23:13:35 oerjan: sometimes regular 23:13:44 Sgeo: wow who is this guy 23:13:48 and how has he started already 23:13:53 my point is that it is unlikely that this lupine can prove lament is a human.. let alone prove he has qualia 23:14:00 god damn #jesus is ridiculous 23:14:10 monqy: sorry you are misspelling "the best channel" 23:14:26 elliott: JUST DON'T BELIEVE YOU'LL GET OPS BY WEARING OUT THE OLD ONES 23:14:40 lupine_85, I wont waste my time on you. when you are ready you can think about how to make a simple robot feel pain. it cannot be done. it's not very hard, it's not super hard. it cannot be done 23:14:49 it can't be done 23:15:06 you just can't prove it feels pain 23:15:09 there is no metric 23:15:14 `addquote What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock. 23:15:15 578) What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock. 23:15:20 Can you make a *complicated* robot feel pain? 23:15:41 it's the pain of the gaps argument 23:15:46 no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain 23:15:48 it's never close enough 23:15:52 it's all like "did that part of your brain which percieves pain activate?".. or as a doctor says "does it hurt when I do this?" 23:16:13 with a robot there is no way of knowing 23:16:16 Be back soon 23:16:29 since the robot has all come about artificially 23:16:39 it is as Magritte would say.. 23:16:48 `addquote it's the pain of the gaps argument no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain it's never close enough 23:16:49 579) it's the pain of the gaps argument no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain it's never close enough 23:16:56 ceci n'est pas une pain 23:17:00 ^^ 23:17:06 brainproxy: come in do you read me? 23:17:09 Sgeo: does he believe hes a spaceman... 23:17:11 Though pain is masculine 23:17:17 oerjan :thanks 23:17:32 Phantom_Hoover: have you encountered this jason guy before is he amazing... 23:17:33 So, ceci n'est pas un pain 23:17:46 I think so. 23:17:49 elliott: Jason's a big ball of crazy. It's awesome 23:17:50 ceci n'est pas un sentient being 23:17:58 He was trying to get Sgeo kicked 23:18:03 lupine_85, I'm a genius beyond what you will ever be. I am incomparably ahead of you. there is no chance I could be wrong about this. you are the one who doesn't think because you are not ready to handle the implications of it. ironically it is a spiritual failing. 23:18:07 god 23:18:11 it's like a breakdown in realtime 23:18:14 the uncanny valley of pain 23:18:18 loooooooooool 23:18:28 im sorry ais523 but this is just too amazing not to be a part of 23:18:41 I disagree. 23:18:42 Though pain is masculine <-- dammit 23:18:45 ^peter^: come in do you read me 23:18:50 does he ping everyone like this NihilistDandy 23:19:00 He does, elliott 23:19:09 ok jesus chat in #esoteric-blah since ais523 is close to rage/parting 23:19:09 nice call oerjan @ uncanny valley of pain 23:19:24 Though usually he'll do it over and over until he gets some attention, elliott 23:19:53 elliott: actually I'm close to going home for unrelated reasons 23:20:09 you have to remember that the definition of that which can feel pain, is not met by a robot .. since it is all built up artificially and mechanically 23:20:16 you mean close to doing your riot shopping 23:20:40 nah, I'm not like that 23:20:55 and the buses don't run this late, and walking to the city centre would take a couple of hours 23:20:59 Dr. ais523 and Mr. looter 23:21:24 just as magritte says you cannot eat a painting of an apple... so, a robot does not gain human 'soul' is the word i think, by coming to more and more resemble a human 23:21:47 itidus then it's just a semantic argument 23:21:55 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:22:00 but... i don't know where i came from :P 23:22:01 so.. 23:22:07 Then what is the proper definition of that which can feel pain? Is it difficult? Possibly it is. 23:22:12 itidus20: that all depends on exactly what physical qualities are necessary to support a soul 23:22:33 hehehe 23:22:45 oerjan: But then, you also need to have the correct proper definition of a soul, if you want to figure that out using proper scientific methods. 23:22:58 oh you can just make a soul chair out of wood 23:23:06 it seems biased to assume carbon water solutions are needed 23:23:07 no drmas 23:23:27 oerjan: yes.. that theory is falling apart at the seams with that ammonia thing 23:23:28 oerjan: Yes I think it is biased 23:23:35 I... guess I should sleep? 23:23:37 is there a monospaced pastebin? 23:23:40 itidus20, what ammonia thing? 23:23:44 not ammonia 23:23:45 sllide: almost all of them; we tend to use sprunge.us 23:23:53 that lifeform discovered in some acid pool 23:24:01 there was carbon present i think 23:24:02 Yes, I also prefer sprunge 23:24:04 That was misreported. 23:24:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry 23:24:20 i'm in windows atm >.< 23:24:29 itidus20: arsenic but yes it was rather dubious science 23:24:44 ok i got ammonia mixed up with arsenic.. 23:25:00 arsenic didn't replace the carbon as i recall but rather the phosphate 23:25:10 itidus20: i think ammonia has been suggested as a possibility for those cold planets/moons like titan 23:25:15 oops phosphorus 23:25:24 itidus20, except it didn't. 23:25:29 It was misreported. 23:25:33 ok now tell me this.. 23:25:35 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 23:25:39 sllide: what about windows? 23:25:42 does a liquid depend on any special type of molecule 23:25:43 NihilistDandy: #esoteric-jesus 23:25:46 well the phosphorus is probably mostly in phosphate anyway 23:26:10 any things made of molecules can go through stages of gas liquid and solid or whatever 23:26:23 itidus20: no, but water is a very _unusual_ liquid with many other extraordinary properties 23:26:23 in the same way it is feasible that life can exist out of any molecules 23:26:46 so while it might be replaced, it might not work as well 23:26:49 itidus20, ice floats. 23:26:51 itidus20: Yes, that does make sense. 23:26:53 -!- ais523 has left ("rage/part"). 23:26:55 oerjan: And yes that is true too. 23:27:03 Very few liquids have that property. 23:27:11 I don't actually know of any other than water. 23:27:15 elliott, does cmd support tunneling of arguments? 23:27:25 output i mean 23:27:26 Phantom_Hoover: highly compressed diamond, remarkably :P 23:27:35 `quote eigenratio 23:27:36 445) The eigenratio of reality has to be enormous, though. 23:27:37 (and heated) 23:28:07 * oerjan saw that on reddit some months ago 23:28:24 sllide: sure 23:28:29 oh >.< 23:28:30 never knew 23:28:32 it was hypothesized that this diamond liquid might exist inside planets like jupiter 23:28:36 you'll need curl, though 23:28:37 iirc 23:28:45 sllide: you don't need pipes to paste to sprunge though 23:28:49 sllide: curl -F 'sprunge= ok the way i see it is bounding volumes inside each other... 23:29:04 ah 23:29:15 well, i guess it's really carbon 23:29:16 http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=win32-devel-msvc is curl for windows 23:29:24 oh, no ssl support 23:29:27 http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=win32-ssl-devel-msvc 23:29:28 each bounding volume represents an assumption... inside it, the majority is wrong, but there are some areas of truth 23:29:36 or http://curl.haxx.se/latest.cgi?curl=win64-ssl-sspi if you're on 64-bit I suppose 23:29:39 somewhat remarkable since carbon does not become liquid at _all_ at earth pressures 23:29:48 so assumptions gradually break down into smaller and smaller pieces 23:29:54 Some people say, life creates the universe, instead of the other way around. I say, unverse creates life, however, it doesn't mean that it doesn't create each other. Time is just part of the universe, anyways. And the mathematics of quantum physics and quantum entanglement and superposition and all that stuff, describe it as entangled and stuff including states nonexisting due to not directly part of the universe? 23:30:49 hey oerjan Patashu thinks that P=NP is obviously going to turn out to be false, be a fanboy at him >: 23:30:50 >:D 23:30:57 LOL 23:31:13 man danfred is really something 23:31:22 ah thanks 23:31:39 Patashu: (cheap plastic imitation of oerjan: "read Gödel's Last Letter - http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/") 23:31:40 he also thinks P!=NP 23:31:52 So, what do *you* think about quantum free will? It is a bit different from classical free will, I think. 23:31:59 Patashu: you misspelled PN 23:32:08 is PN!=NP? 23:32:15 Yes. 23:32:34 i am not a buddhist, but I am one who finds buddha regularly offers the most suitable answers about things 23:32:41 Do beans contain the souls of dead people? Perhaps it is but such things would be completely irrelevant. There cannot be a proper "position" anyways 23:32:49 Yes. 23:32:50 elliott: *Lost 23:32:52 Yes they do. 23:32:54 oerjan: oh duh 23:32:55 itidus20: Yes they probably do answer some things too 23:33:01 It's like in the latest Culture book. 23:33:08 Heaven is a massive computer simulation 23:33:13 Run inside beans. 23:33:17 beans? 23:33:27 zzo38: not quite: 23:33:28 zzo38: elliott, only the rotten sobs 23:33:28 no 23:33:36 the main presupposition of buddhism is rebirth 23:33:40 Phantom_Hoover: sssssssssssssh don't spoil me 23:34:03 elliott, THEN READ THEM FFS 23:34:09 a computer program running on my computer is qualia if I can't serialize it and move it to a different computer 23:34:17 PAPERBACK/HARDBACK IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT 23:34:21 Patashu: ah, so @ is anti-qualia 23:34:29 yes 23:34:33 Phantom_Hoover: It is funny because you do not understand how obsessive I am. 23:34:38 and so is win32-hourglass 23:34:41 elliott: wait what is PN 23:35:02 oerjan: like np but more christian 23:35:15 aha 23:36:02 screw #jesus, terraria 1.0.6 is finally out http://www.terrariaonline.com/threads/1-0-6-changelog.50278/ 23:36:38 Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead. 23:36:41 -!- myndzi has quit. 23:36:48 -!- myndzi has joined. 23:37:03 `addquote Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead. 23:37:04 No output. 23:37:15 Patashu: oh terraria is like elliottcraft but crap and with one fewer dimension. 23:37:16 `addquote Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead. 23:37:18 580) .<.zzo38.>.. Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead. 23:37:21 argh 23:37:23 `delquote 580 23:37:24 ​*poof* 23:37:25 oerjan: you do it 23:37:43 elliot less dimensions = worse game 23:37:46 Why do you have CTRL+H in your text? Where did that come from? HackEgo just replaces it with dots 23:37:56 Patashu: yes 23:38:02 Patashu: elliottcraft takes place in 999-dimensional space 23:38:03 stack based cubes 23:38:06 LOL 23:38:12 make it take place in infinite dimension hilbert space 23:38:30 err cubes that are stack based 23:38:34 or something 23:38:37 Patashu: tempting 23:38:38 `addquote Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead. 23:38:39 580) Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead. 23:39:18 elliott: i always get nervous whether irssi will cut/paste multilines properly 23:39:27 *wrapped lines 23:39:33 oerjan: heh 23:39:47 it does wrapped lines as doublespaces for me, which frustrates 23:39:48 Of course Pythagoras had a few strange religion and this is one of them. 23:39:58 'Hellstone now spawns lava when it is mined, but only in the underworld.' hardcore 23:39:59 I think he also did not want to touch a mirror. 23:41:01 And had some ideas about astronomy that were wrong but they wouldn't know because they didn't have equipment as well. Such as, that both the sun and the earth go around the "central fire", which is toward the uninhabited side of the Earth. 23:41:39 Patashu: actually wait, how is terraria better than df 23:41:45 that I sincerely don't get :D 23:41:51 dwarf fortress? 23:42:01 He still called the central fire a planet. And adding other things, resulting in 9 planets in total. So, they decided to add one more to make ten. 23:42:33 Patashu: yes 23:42:39 i guess that game is technically threedee 23:42:41 but you only see one at a time 23:42:42 so 23:42:44 same thing?? 23:42:45 (yes) 23:42:47 dwarf fortress is GOTY 23:42:48 every year 23:42:54 so how can I argue terraria is better than it 23:43:00 EXACTLY 23:44:34 so I was reading about the definition of prime numbers and then reading about prime factorization.. and i started to think about it more carefully 23:45:07 you didn't know the definition of primes? 23:45:35 itidus20: for more on-topicness, you might want to read about Fractran 23:45:50 this is what i came up with http://pastebin.com/EY712Ljy 23:45:58 (i am really bad at explaining things) 23:46:00 and I realized that a number with N prime factors cannot be folder into a rectangle in N+1 dimensions, where a rectange is a shape where each dimension of the object is > 1 23:46:36 Google summary: Starting from a scientific world view, the mission of the Kira Institute is to foster fresh approaches to exploring “what else is true?” 23:46:38 first sentence of webpage: 23:46:39 We are an interdisciplinary institute based in Second Life. 23:47:10 is it any good? :) 23:47:30 before it can be good, it has to be loading 23:47:38 there 23:47:52 sllide: your language specification? that's just the syntax, right? 23:48:09 yup, only syntax 23:48:42 sllide: the word "cube" usually implies all sides being equal length 23:48:50 oh ofc.. 23:48:57 ah well 23:49:01 rect prism 23:49:13 Sgeo: isn't the trinity catholic doctrine... 23:49:14 e-rect 23:49:17 sllide, i just referred to such things as rectangles in a very recent post 23:49:19 What hilarity did I miss in #jesus ? 23:49:27 Sgeo: danfred is literally the best 23:49:29 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:49:30 jason is almost as good 23:49:37 Sgeo: #esoteric-jesus is the new hub of discussion 23:49:41 NO MOCKING JUST DISCUSSION 23:49:47 dot rect doesnt sound so good :( 23:49:48 its official mission statement is a channel about jesus not #jesus 23:49:51 so it is totally ok. 23:49:59 i know this is wrong but just a few lines up i said "where a rectangle is a shape where each dimension of the object is > 1" 23:50:12 i didnt read that.. 23:50:17 its unrelated 23:50:32 and its not a true definition 23:50:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:50:54 well, i get your point 23:50:55 i thought it was clever though.. but it should be obvious to everyone here 23:50:59 -!- myndzi has joined. 23:51:02 since they're all very smart 23:51:12 and im the dumb guy 23:51:15 it's a topological product of 3 lines, anyhow ;P 23:51:51 so if you try to take a 1 dimensional number... and create a rectangle with width > 1 and length > 1 and you can't... then it's a prime 23:52:03 i think? 23:52:10 idk tbh 23:52:11 :-? 23:52:15 humm yeah.. that sounds right 23:52:30 i just dont like the idea of having more than one character per opcode 23:52:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of astatide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:52:54 itidus20: yeah, assuming integer length sides 23:53:07 oerjan: well.. can you have a non-integer prime? :> 23:53:16 oh haha. i see.. well yeah 23:53:22 my definition had holes 23:53:31 and it really isnt a 2d code either 23:53:31 natural number length sides 23:53:35 itidus20, there's... a way of extending the concept. 23:53:46 i'll repost 23:53:52 and I realized that a number with N prime factors cannot be folder into a rectangle in N+1 dimensions, where a rectange is a shape where each dimension of the object is > 1 23:54:33 ill try to be original tomorrow 23:55:34 it looks original, your thing 23:55:36 sllide: oh i think you mean rectangles, anyhow, this is 2d 23:55:44 i wasn't talking about an esolang 23:56:10 i was just talking about my conception of prime numbers 23:56:12 with 2d i mean code getting executing more ways than just down 23:57:32 oops what i meant to say is 23:57:47 a number with "at least N prime factors" 23:58:26 *at most 23:59:18 oro