00:01:11 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:01:28 oerjan: i figure that all procedural generation is deterministic 00:01:47 hummm but the source of seeds might not be though... 00:02:06 and if the seeds are nondeterministic then the procedure won't be 00:02:07 oerjan: I'd be willing to bet it's a PRNG seeded with the date. 00:02:25 Well, rather, transform based on the output thereof. 00:03:02 but back to monqys point.. on the surface i can pretend to know what i am talking about 00:03:08 but do i really? no 00:05:31 pikhq: i think that's called a "hash" :P 00:07:40 oerjan: BAH 00:09:57 btw it's a commonly believed conjecture in computation complexity theory that it is possible to remove true randomness from any algorithm without significantly [weasel word] decreasing its power 00:10:09 *computational complexity 00:10:49 as an example of my ignorance on the matter i certainly haven't studied PRNGs 00:10:58 i've only called them as pre-written functins 00:11:11 i think it follows from some other widely believed conjectures of similar hardness to P vs. NP 00:12:28 but there have also been several concrete derandomization constructions of particular algorithms, most famously perhaps the AKS prime checking algorithm 00:13:43 -!- evincar has joined. 00:13:46 i would go so far as to say that an individuals perception of a procedurally generated work is linked to concepts of a society's shibbaleths 00:13:58 (in that case the "without significantly" means something like "still polynomial time but too slow in practice") 00:14:56 itidus20: the question i'm having is whether there has yet been any procedurally generated work whose value goes beyond just "look at this clever procedural generation" 00:15:19 that, as a listerner, a person conceives of a speaker independantly of the words he speaks 00:15:19 which in itself _can_ be amazing, but leaves something to desire 00:15:38 and so.. procedurally generated words can only resolve to hollow speakers 00:16:07 This seems like a conversation related to strong AI. 00:16:21 evincar: was just about to say :P 00:16:22 If the program that created the work is intelligent, it will have value. 00:16:34 The work will, that is. 00:16:40 hmm 00:16:56 otoh procedurally generated works _without_ AI can still showcase the beauty of mathematics 00:16:58 but what if the program is not intelligent 00:17:18 and in some way, perhaps that's all they can do 00:17:26 oerjan: True, but it's also tied to the mind of the creator. 00:17:29 what if it just arrived at pseudo-intelligent displays by luck 00:17:37 Isn't that what we've done? 00:18:09 Evolution implies vaguely deterministic luck. 00:19:15 yes but we're still intelligent at least some of the time :P 00:19:38 like fungot could say something which in an intelligent speakers mouth would be meaningful 00:19:38 itidus20: this is it, like an apple or a cunning prankster than a common sort. 00:20:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:21:06 but if a work is long, achieving something which looks consistently intelligent by chance has vanishingly low probability 00:21:24 any attempt to construct an anthropomorphic speaker in my imagination around fungot is fanciful and illusionary 00:21:24 itidus20: this is a really hot look for a stronger! ive been pretty busy in a couple minutes, and more importantly, it pushes the cruxite to the last card. you then quickly adjust the elevation by approximately what it is now! 00:22:16 but i do it any way.. and that is surely a sign of worry that i cannot resist it 00:23:10 i mean there is no framework in language to describe something like that 00:23:32 it looks like a duck, it acts like a duck.. and yet it is very far from being a duck 00:23:54 As humans, we like lending meaning to random patterns. 00:23:55 hm? i'd imagine fungot's success is precisely because it implements a framework of language - if a very shallow one 00:23:56 oerjan: try again. and a whole other issue. guess i can't really do. hell fucking yes a few more things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some things we can deploy but some thin 00:24:07 It's an advantage to see things that aren't there. 00:24:14 Rather than missing things that are. 00:24:38 I think you broke him. 00:24:44 yep you don't want to mistake a lion for a funnily shaped flower :P 00:25:10 evincar: common fungot bug in how it selects the next word 00:25:10 oerjan: try again. and a whole sword bird and now, to make it, and the only to let you in on a little secret a8out the lore, and are, going a little far and its kind of a reckless use of 00:25:59 it sometimes considers one alternative too strongly 00:26:26 -!- amca has joined. 00:26:49 Make a book by typing a lot of your own things and then inserting outputs from fungot and adding stuff to make it fit into your sentences and paragraphs and so on. 00:27:25 Intelligent intervention in random output often produces interesting results. 00:30:40 back 00:30:59 someone once told me that art is representation and that it doesn't hide what it is 00:32:02 so if I say fungot is art.. then theres no problem 00:32:03 itidus20: so it was pretty good. well, i can't really do. hell fucking yes. it is. hub sn_lab0413. it is a good idea. 00:32:26 ^style 00:32:26 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 00:32:53 ^ff7 00:33:00 d'oh 00:33:43 but if fungot is passed off as an actual human, with human rights and human access to resources then trouble brews 00:33:44 itidus20: your handy ruler. you are quite a sn0b mm, okay? 00:34:48 now if he was actually intelligent then that would be a different story 00:37:59 my fear is that of procedural generation being used to cut production costs where they cannot really be cut 00:39:27 ok --- i have said my 2 cents on the issue. fungot, any last words? 00:39:28 itidus20: not that it would actually bother pitying you. whatever your adventure throws at you im sure shell, and limbering up for a silly cookie dance. or it will 8e the most powerful adversary you have ever had a physical card for the stack or queue. items can be removed the card from the card. you've always wondered what the code is. 00:40:25 You've always wondered what the code is indeed. 00:41:48 i will take back a bit of what i have said and say that whoever said the procedures aren't good enough has made a good comment 00:42:44 ok guys, do you want to know what procedural generation i would like to do? 00:43:11 i would like to procedurally generate graphics for scribblenauts 00:44:02 its interesting that in some article, the writer said "they said they didn't procedurally generate the graphics, how could they?" 00:48:28 Hmm. Do you suppose you could set up a genetic system to evolve game ideas? 00:48:58 Your fitness function would be based on manual scoring of playthroughs. 00:49:12 It wouldn't give you complete games, but perhaps prototypes. 00:52:58 There has been some success using genetic algorithms to fix bugs in C code. 01:01:01 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:02:58 01:03:01 -!- pingveno has joined. 01:03:33 evincar: i don't think there is any escaping the fact that humans enjoy interacting with each other and feeling each other in our works 01:04:15 like when people write reviews for things... it is assumed the author can read the review.. but an author can't take direct credit for something which occurs amid a procedurally generated experience 01:04:58 If the author made the procedures 01:05:16 While that's true, I don't think it would put procedural generation in a positive like in the absolute sense, just relativly less of a positive one. 01:05:41 Procedural generation is genrally meant to work a bit like nature. 01:05:49 it has its place 01:06:18 -!- cheater__ has joined. 01:06:22 I think a problem that hurts a lot of procedural generation is the lack of history. 01:06:24 but i am indulging in explicitly stating what it is not so good at 01:06:32 I see. 01:07:15 For the lack of history part, a procedurally generated dwelling isn't really the result of it's inhabitants. 01:07:50 the world doesn't consist entirely of language.. and human authors add meaning to language through their other experiences 01:08:51 in other words, you can't learn anything from procedurally generated content beyond the fascinating way in which it is structured 01:09:15 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:09:22 you can learn how the patterns work perhaps 01:09:35 like for example playing tetris over and over you can improve 01:11:03 like you can't learn anything from a bot except that which it has been given.. 01:11:15 oh maybe you can learn some things........... 01:11:20 That is true as long as the procedure does not include a simulation of the subject of the writing, but except in a very shallow sense this is probably true for most if not all generators. 01:11:43 i suppose you could indeed learn grammar structure from a bot 01:11:58 Only if it were actually a well-designed bot. :P 01:12:00 but most of its sentences would lack actual meaning 01:12:10 One thing I'd like to do some day is make a bot that talks about talking. 01:12:15 so ok not learn nothing.. but you can't get a rich learning 01:12:17 THen you could talk about talking about anything. 01:12:18 OK, finally my Constantinople compiler is completed and it works good now. 01:12:18 Besides, grammar is emergent behaviour, not formal structure. 01:14:21 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/Constantinople.zip 01:14:56 Do you think it is good now? 01:17:06 This program is public domain. 01:18:13 I suppose you might change the program to do actual bits I/O if you wanted to do so. 01:20:06 So wait, does the current implementation not require brackets, from what I read in the talk page? 01:21:12 Yes, it does not require brackets. Actually it won't even accept brackets (they are useless anyways in this programming language) 01:21:38 I see, it's jsut the the distrption on the wiki still mentions them. 01:22:32 Without punctuation, it'd be easy to make a version that accepts programs written in Sarus. 01:22:33 Yes it does still mention them. It was probably intended to use ( ) to make not ambiguous, but it doesn't actually help make anything not ambiguous or help anything else either. What does help is what I mentioned, which is using "with" to separate two arguments. 01:22:46 MDude: What does "Sarus" mean? 01:23:09 It's an artificial speaking language based partly on Soresol. 01:23:21 It's used in a series of cartoons. 01:24:35 You can try that if you want to; it is in the public domain. You can make whatever changes you want to make. However I would like it if you did not misrepresent it as the original program. 01:25:51 I'll try not to misrepresent it then. 01:25:56 Also, I'd have to learn Haskel. 01:26:05 OK. 01:26:05 I guess I was going to eventually. 01:27:10 Do you even have GHC installed in your computer? Note, it includes a file called "Constantinople.cmd" which is a Windows shell script for compiling the program, it is short and you can make a similar short shell script in UNIX, too. 01:27:44 (You will also have to modify the shell script if you are using a different Haskell compiler than GHC) 01:28:56 I don't have any version of Haskel, so I might as well go with GHC so i can try out the language int he first place. 01:29:10 Actually, I didn't give my compiler any special name other than just "Constantinople compiler", so it is not difficult to avoid misrepresentation 01:29:44 This program also requires Parsec. 01:30:00 i do not believe template haskell is supported by any compiler other than ghc 01:30:49 Then you do need GHC, because this program also uses Template Haskell. 01:31:32 parsec should be included automatically if you use the Haskell Platform 01:32:05 Yeah, the GHC site jsut reccomended I get that. 01:32:29 * MDude recoils at the sight of pink flowers. 01:33:01 Do not worry because the flowers are not part of the Haskell program as far as I know. 01:33:58 you'd think :P 01:34:15 If you want to print out the Constantinople compiler, you also need the "birdstyle.tex" file which I can also give to you if you ask. 01:35:11 I don't even know what printing out a compiler means. 01:35:29 My Little Program: Functions are Math-ic 01:35:57 I mean printing out the program. It is a .lhs file which can be parsed by TeX to convert into the device independent printout file. 01:36:51 Ah, ok. 01:37:21 The extension .lhs just means that lines starting with > are program codes and everything else is ignored by the Haskell compiler 01:42:09 tl;dr: LHS = Literate Haskell Source 01:42:26 Also LHS = Left-Hand Side. 01:42:37 But Left-Hand Side ≠ LHS. 01:42:40 Or does it? 01:42:59 GHC = Global Hocky Club 01:44:54 Tell me if you have any problems with this program. 01:48:45 The number of pages and the number of chapters of this program are both five, as it turns out. 01:53:46 Is the program strange a bit to you? 01:55:05 I haven't checked it out yet because I forgot what I was doing. 01:55:12 Now I rememdered I already installed Haskell. 01:57:02 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:58:54 esoteric music? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_KeybhGDDU&feature=related 02:00:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: I have to eat too.). 02:01:40 PatashuWarg: experimental music 02:01:46 is what it's normally known as. 02:01:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUB83_F-SmE&feature=related this piece is lol 02:04:10 Could not find Main.o? 02:15:15 -!- PatashuWarg has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 02:15:35 I have no idea if the compiler worked. 02:15:52 Or what I'm suppossed to do with the .hi and .o files. 02:16:35 Oh wait there's my problem. 02:17:06 FOr some reason I thought you meant it was a compiler for turnign the lhs file into an exe that can in turn be sued on Constantinople source files. 02:17:38 When instead the .bat is what's used on the files written in Constantinople. 02:19:35 I'll test it out with the cat program. 02:20:24 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 02:21:22 Er, I mean the .cmd. 02:28:18 C:\Users\MDude\Desktop\Constantinople>cat.txt.exe 02:28:18 I like having a cat. 02:28:18 cat.txt.exe: Constantinople.lhs:(144,5)-(145,51): Non-exhaustive patterns in fun 02:28:18 ction cmd_in' 02:29:05 I'm not sure if that's anI/O problem or not. 02:31:17 No, it's a non-exhaustive patterns problem. 02:31:30 I don't know what that means. 02:31:47 I did get a trivial program of "out head" to work. 02:31:57 ? 02:32:00 * shachaf can't parse that sentence. 02:32:08 In consists of the single line "out head". 02:32:19 Nor that one. 02:32:21 It outputs the initial contents of head, which is 0. 02:32:36 If you define a function like "foo (Just x) = x", and then you call it with Nothing, that's a non-exhaustive pattern. 02:32:43 You don't define what foo of Nothing is. 02:32:49 It's for zzo38's language Constantinople. 02:32:55 Oh. 02:32:59 Which I don't think even has functoins. 02:33:13 I thought this was a Haskell program. 02:33:27 The interpreter is written in Haskell. 02:33:37 I meant I/O problem as in the implementation of it. 02:33:39 So the interpreter is broken. 02:34:10 zzo38 mentioned bitwise I/O wasn't present, but I thought that migth have meant I/O was bytewise instead. 02:34:26 Like how other languages save up untilt hey reach a full byte. 02:34:42 Non-exhaustive patterns means that the Haskell program doesn't take some possibility into account. 02:34:50 MDude: it wants input as digits 0 and 1, i think 02:34:56 -!- amca has quit (Quit: Farewell). 02:35:00 I see. 02:35:00 * oerjan hasn't read the final version 02:35:16 It's only on #esoteric that we talk about the linguistic necessity of buffering bits till we have a full byte. 02:35:41 Yeah, I was running off the idea that my input would be converted to strings of bits. 02:35:46 Like http://www.samuelhughes.com/boof/index.html ? 02:35:51 I'll try with actual 1s and 0s. 02:36:01 did someone say linguistic 02:36:32 augur: no. nothing to see here, move on... 02:36:46 x3 02:37:53 Ok, no cat is working, though the interpreter still throws an error tacked on to the end of the output. 02:37:57 *now 02:39:47 hm does Constantinople actually handle eof by the spec... 02:41:12 augur: Computer-linguistics. Though I'm always up for a chat about the natural kind. 02:41:26 People on #conlang are surprisingly unmotivated to talk about language. 02:41:37 ofcourse they are 02:41:41 thats why they're in #conlang 02:41:42 MDude: indeed it doesn't, so that's not zzo38's fault 02:41:44 and not #linguistics 02:42:06 Well I'm not sure how I'd give it input that doesn't end in a eof. 02:42:28 well it shouldn't err out if you don't read that far 03:02:18 -!- wth has joined. 03:03:34 -!- wth has left. 03:14:22 Well I have no idea how to avoid that. 03:17:40 it certainly would be hard with a cat program :P 03:18:25 Well I mean I'm not usre how to define input length at all. 03:19:04 um i simply mean to use an input format which doesn't require you to know what's beyond the input you actually use 03:19:29 So a predefined fixed length? 03:20:32 not necessarily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefix_code 03:21:32 except for the entire input, not just each word of it 03:23:03 for example, unlambda program code has that property (ignoring trailing whitespace and comments) 03:28:23 I'll have to see if I can make something liek that in the morning, then. 03:28:26 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:31:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: This umbrella works wonders for murdering! | software problems | Functor? I hardly knew 'er! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 03:39:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:41:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:50:59 Big, big deep breath. Deep down inside you there is a submarine. It has a tongue. Exhale." 03:54:31 ohgod sgeo found cuil theory 03:55:23 coppro, I'm just quoting from Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby 03:55:42 _why clearly found cuil theory 03:56:50 umm... ignore that sentence 04:02:41 I think this is a bit outdated 04:04:07 Yes, Dr. Cham now does something different from what _why said 04:04:13 his niece Hannah. 04:04:23 http://ideone.com/PULCM 04:04:41 According to _why, it should be Yes, Dr. Cham electrocuted his niece Hannah. 04:06:52 Well, "should" in the factual sense, not the normative. 04:07:16 I think it makes more sense for a do-block to introduce a new scope for its identifiers. 04:07:24 * Sgeo agrees 04:07:27 s/its/all its/ 04:08:14 I'm glad _why disappeared. I go by Why as well. :P 04:08:55 (whyevernotso) 04:09:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:10:10 Hello, world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 04:12:00 The cannot find Main.o is not a problem; the .cmd file tries to delete it at first to force that file to be recompiled without necessarily recompiling the other file. 04:12:00 Hello, exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 04:12:31 But, yes, my program does use actual character 0 and 1 for I/O. A future version might make it proper bitwise I/O, though. 04:14:57 You will get the nonexhaustive pattern errors in two cases: One is if you input anything other than 0 or 1 (this includes the newline at the end of the first input line). Another is if you try to store a bit in a tail of a list. 04:18:02 Trying to use the "nand" command as the argument to "in" or as the first argument to "replace", although it that case it has nothing to do with nonexhaustive patterns; I did explicitly type "undefined" there in the program because that operation is not defined. 04:19:07 zzo38: one may also use error for a more precise error message 04:19:35 So what shall I do this evening? Work on a little language, or write? 04:21:34 oerjan: Yes I know that too. I just didn't bother putting it in. For the case of writing a non-list to the tail, that is also, what would be called in mathematics, a value that the function is not defined on; although in this case the reason Haskell sees that is due to nonexhaustive patterns instead. 04:22:52 evincar: I don't know. What little language did you want to work on, and what did you want to write? 04:26:22 zzo38: It's a small but versatile embedded language intended for game development, based on Self. As for the writing, I was thinking of working out a system of magic and seeing what interesting fantasy world sprung up from it. 04:27:50 evincar: These are interesting things. Maybe you can do both, one today and one tomorrow. If you have time. 04:29:20 I would like to see some of the ideas of both these things. 04:29:41 I guess I'll work on the language because it's more fun to show off, and might be useful to someone. 04:30:42 OK. 04:31:10 The idea is to have a very minimalistic language that's high-performance and easy to embed. 04:31:27 OK. 04:32:22 When it comes to games especially, your only choices for good pre-existing scripting languages are Lua and Python. 04:32:51 I think they're too big, as scripting languages go. 04:33:01 Especially in a high-performance system. 04:34:18 In the case of MegaZeux, it has Robotic built-in, however I have also added Forth (but which is also used in a different way than the Robotic codes; Forth codes are sun synchronously and are placed in an external file and are global to the game, while Robotic codes are asynchronous and can be specific to objects on the board). Forth does run faster (I have tested it). 04:35:32 Stack-based languages are good for embedding, but I think people find them cumbersome. 04:37:45 Make up your own and see if it is good. 04:38:35 When making a game with MegaZeux, I often use both the Robotic codes and the Forth codes, for different reasons. 04:39:18 The language I'm working on is object-oriented, based on Smalltalk and Self. Uses prototypal inheritance rather than classes, and libffi for external bindings. 04:41:43 Well, I'm not getting anything done as long as I hang around here talking, so goodnight. 04:41:46 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:45:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:45:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 04:45:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:45:36 i need a name for my game 04:45:44 zzo38: give my game a name 04:46:15 quintopia: How can I do so? I have not seen your game. However, I do have a program to make up a random name of computer games 04:46:48 its about robots and factories and symmetry and asymmetry and puzzles 04:46:56 you can do it from that right? 04:47:58 No I cannot. But I can try. Does "Factories Symmetry" works? 04:56:00 robotobor 05:04:24 heres an amusing application of procedural generation i just stumbled upon by chance http://turnyournameintoaface.com/ 05:04:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:11:38 oerjan: i like it 05:14:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:15:32 oerjan: how about RoboTodoЯ 05:22:37 but of course 05:24:19 xk cancer diary 05:24:45 yeah 05:25:33 hm that was actually a funny one 05:27:00 i agree, although considering it involves aids, it'd be the worse failure ever if it weren't 05:27:14 aids is a comedy trump card 05:27:25 if you get aids in apples to apples, you've won the hand 06:30:11 zzo38: what does your program suggest? 06:30:51 quintopia: The program currently can take no parameters, so it generates completely at random. (It is possible to make a version with parameters if you want) 06:31:37 what does it say? 06:32:16 quintopia: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php?which=video_game.txt¶=&count=1 (The "Parameter" field has no effect currently.) 06:33:25 wow these namees are great but they are three words long 06:33:37 i want a made up name that is one word long :P 06:34:09 You sometimes get names that are only two words long. However, there is no one word long. 06:34:47 "Tom Clancy's Bubble Physics" 06:34:49 i'm on it! 06:38:13 "Tiger Woods' Battle Girl" sounds rather multidisciplinary. 06:39:55 !simplename 06:40:03 XMOSIHAIECWOAI. 06:40:35 truly a household name 06:42:25 is there a complex name? 06:42:52 not in EgoBot to my knowledge 06:43:41 so do you like robotobor or robotopia better 06:44:20 Robotopia is already the name of a game 06:44:46 Therefore, call it Robotobor (unless that is also already taken) 06:47:38 Robotorpor. (Of which Google says: "Did you mean to search for: roboraptor".) 06:52:31 nah fizzie, these robots are very active 06:53:03 Those robots mean business. 06:53:22 also, when i was a kid i always wanted a roboraptor 06:53:31 but that shit was $16 iirc 06:53:39 oh wait 06:53:42 my mistake 06:53:53 i had a roboraptor 06:53:57 still do 06:54:14 i wanted the anamatronic t-rex, which was $216 07:02:33 !simplename 07:02:38 VEOACS. 07:19:45 I used a different algorithm for making name of my character in D&D game, I have done so the past few times I have created a character (each time for a separate campaign; none of my characters have died, and if it is it might be due to sacrifice (even in chess you can find sacrifice useful)). 07:21:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:24:14 it means you dont play paranoia 07:24:24 or you'd die all the time :) 07:29:28 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:29:51 Hello! 07:30:50 @ahoy Taneb 07:30:50 "Taneb" 07:31:07 So, what's up? 07:32:23 thinking of names for my game 07:32:32 What game? 07:32:33 i'm considering "assemblage" noow 07:38:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 07:41:14 the game i am making 07:41:28 internet is not working again :( 07:43:11 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:47:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:58:41 "Assemblah". 08:12:12 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:13:25 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:13:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 08:13:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:26:39 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:35:53 -!- nooga has joined. 08:43:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:45:36 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:45:36 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 08:45:36 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:48:42 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:48:43 hi 08:48:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binodu 08:48:58 Hello! 08:50:27 Nice 08:50:37 One thing: don't pothole links to user pages 08:51:04 right. 08:51:09 i'm adding some stuff to the syntax i find missing 08:54:24 writing a hello world now 08:57:12 done 08:57:51 ok, not done as the wiki ate my entry, somehow 08:57:51 brb 08:58:10 There. It's there. 08:59:13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binodu#Examples 08:59:14 So cruel. 08:59:28 writing a more informative example: XOR gate! 08:59:38 I'm going to write a shorter hello world 09:00:44 go ahead 09:00:50 just uhh 09:00:54 ok go ahead 09:01:23 oh right 09:01:27 minor syntax change 09:01:32 (multiple comparator/action pairs are allowed in a single node 09:02:09 Note added. 09:07:07 Taneb - http://pastebin.com/FQLmCWvY 09:07:10 XOR in 34 lines, including input 09:07:29 Nice 09:07:38 little bug, XOR1 should be Automatic Output 09:07:54 so should be the other two, in fact 09:08:04 A to toggle reg. 1, Z to toggle reg. 2, X to XOR 09:09:28 i would add code to make it smaller, but then, I was aiming for minimalism 09:10:04 but it needs one more syntax change 09:10:09 along with Stop there should be StopOnce 09:10:18 actually no, that defeats one of the tricks you need to do 09:10:25 the change i want to do is add OutputOnChange 09:10:31 so it only outputs if a store has been executed 09:18:40 Taneb try to figure out how this LFSR works: http://pastebin.com/0cR0GSJ5 09:20:13 It doesn't. 09:20:26 It fires LFSRbit3 and then halts 09:20:44 yes yes it does 09:20:48 oh. 09:20:55 no, it in fact does work 09:20:58 Taneb - look at LFSRbit1 09:21:00 and Compare InputL 09:21:07 Damn, didn't see that automatic 09:21:09 Stop only halts a Node 09:21:14 not the whole thing 09:21:42 i'm starting to love binodu 09:21:47 it's so simple, looks much simpler than Brainfuck 09:21:54 but gets you easily confused 09:22:15 LFSRinit is only so it doesn't halt indefinitely 09:22:20 by setting its default state to 0010 09:22:28 rather than 0000 09:22:40 though i'll add a Default command right now 09:22:42 just to get rid of it 09:23:13 I've written a 112 line Hello World 09:24:03 Yours is shorter. 09:24:21 yeah. 09:24:23 show me yours 09:24:27 i want to see what complexity have you done 09:24:29 Still working on it 09:24:38 Gonna take out a few redundant nodes 09:24:43 lol 09:25:04 don't you like how my language is simply complex 09:25:12 right! i need to take a break pretty soon 09:25:15 It's amazing 09:25:26 really? 09:25:31 i invented it on a boring afternooon 09:25:36 i was reading a book on AI 09:25:36 104 nodes 09:25:38 and i saw the concept of nodes 09:25:55 then i thought "What if I make it into an esolang?" 09:26:01 then, many complexifications, changes and simplifications later 09:26:02 i got this 09:26:11 100 lines 09:26:18 pastebin now 09:26:19 i gtg soon 09:26:25 you beat me by 7 lines 09:26:26 D: 09:26:45 http://pastebin.com/ZxJTT1st 09:27:12 Wow. Good job. 09:27:21 also Compare is required (even if empty) to trigger an Action 09:27:34 It's all there 09:27:37 well not necessairly 09:27:41 i mean, this part is interpreter-dependent 09:27:43 it's mainly for beautification 09:28:17 also, about Node Seven 09:28:28 why add all the "Action false" code? 09:28:29 i see no point 09:28:45 The first 7 is a double seven 09:28:49 The third isn't 09:28:52 oh... right. 09:28:57 wow i cant read my own code 09:29:02 So, the first time 7 is ran, it launches itself again 09:29:04 the 7 would fire a Seven then go to its own action 09:29:05 wow. 09:29:09 though 09:29:20 wouldnt it be shorter to add two "Fire Seven" for the first time? 09:29:24 and remove that part of the code? 09:29:27 would save 3 lines 09:29:30 Probably 09:29:34 I was being clever 09:29:47 Same with L, actually 09:29:47 well i wasn't being clever and being clever didnt give you that much gain 09:29:52 feel free to edit the page 09:29:52 i'm off 09:29:55 cya! 09:30:01 Bye 09:30:58 so on an unrelated subject, i sketched an amusing 3d snakes and ladders out of boredom 09:31:16 where each row is higher than the last, as if climbing a hill 09:31:31 Taneb one more thing before i left 09:31:35 added Binodu to the esolang list 09:31:37 and added it to categories 09:31:38 bye! 09:31:46 i wonder what paradigm this fits into, i fany 09:31:46 Bye 09:31:54 Object oriented 09:34:55 I find this binodu easy on the eyes.. i don't like looking at a soup of ^^&*^&*)(&*(%@$%^ 09:35:38 no wait i didn't say that 09:45:20 its easy on the eyes 09:45:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:45:25 but still not easy on the mind 09:45:31 when im back, im going to work on an interp 09:45:35 also 99 bottles of beer 09:45:38 cya again 09:45:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:52:03 Got it down to 74 lines 09:58:31 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:05:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 10:11:03 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:11:11 Hello! 10:19:21 ah, Unicode 10:19:27 whatever would we do without BRAKCETs 10:51:29 back 10:51:31 Taneb, how's your work 10:51:38 74 lines 10:51:53 Can't get it down any further 10:53:31 tried optimizing it further 10:53:35 but that only made it stay at 74 lines 10:53:42 Exactly 10:54:01 right 10:54:07 so now i'll be working on the interpreter 11:01:14 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:03:48 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:06:56 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood). 11:07:41 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:18:08 -!- PatashuWarg has joined. 11:22:47 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:22:55 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:37:42 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:41:15 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood). 11:42:30 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:45:44 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood). 11:51:43 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:57:35 >150 / 17 11:57:40 > 150 / 17 11:57:41 8.823529411764707 12:22:26 -!- boily has joined. 12:26:34 asiekierka, any idea about the computational class of binodu? 12:26:46 I'm pretty sure it's a FSA 12:27:10 You can only have a finite number of nodes, which only have a finite number of values 12:27:20 ah indeed 12:27:47 Taneb yeah 12:28:18 though simulating other languages, given finite memory, should be possible 12:28:28 one way to do it is re-create all logic gates and use that 12:28:34 That makes it a very nice finite state automaton 12:28:50 i'm pretty sure a Boolfuck interpreter (for finite memory) is doable 12:28:59 i'm considering adding a Clone command 12:29:07 that clones the node executing it into a new node 12:29:16 but then, that would also be finite as you can only specify so many naes 12:29:17 names* 12:29:18 asiekierka, I don't see any input? 12:29:19 making it useless 12:29:22 Vorpal InputA-InputZ 12:29:27 though i've yet to code it 12:29:53 ah 12:30:14 asiekierka, you call them nodes. Why? 12:30:19 well 12:30:26 the entire concept for the language came when I was reading a book on AI 12:30:29 and i was reading about nodes 12:30:34 then i... kind of got inspired 12:30:38 aha 12:30:41 after half an hour i came up with this 12:34:04 i'm almost done with the interpreter 12:34:05 just a parser left 12:39:30 alright! coded the code for finding and adding nodes 12:39:37 now i just have to FILL THEM WITH CONTENT 12:42:03 Fill them with cream. 12:42:59 (Reference to: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/04/13 ) 12:47:03 it's not empty 12:47:03 sorry :< 12:47:16 it already has the Interpreter class and all the sub-classes (coding in java because i'm lazy) 12:47:29 asiekierka, you coded the code for finding the nodes? 12:47:34 yes 12:47:43 now i'm halfway through coding the code for parsing them (2nd stage) 12:47:49 first it has to find all the nodes for the Fire command to work right 12:47:53 then it parses them to fill in the classes 12:47:57 then it just runs the interpreter 12:51:07 right, now i'm parsing everything (except actions) 12:56:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:58:40 so i wrote the code in one go 12:58:42 25 errors. meh 12:58:52 Better than 26 12:59:20 Worse than 24, if you want to be philosophical about it. 12:59:36 we're down to 17 12:59:43 Yay! 13:00:12 down to 6 13:01:18 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:01:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 13:01:35 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:02:02 down to 1 13:02:58 all errors gone 13:03:05 now to write a simple Main.java 13:03:08 and test 13:03:50 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:05:07 and the compiled classes seem to weigh 11.7KB 13:05:41 huhhh infinite loop 13:06:14 -!- cheater_ has joined. 13:06:53 -!- sllide has joined. 13:07:25 right. it seems to run node "hey" ad infinitum 13:07:30 implying that Stop isn't working 13:07:32 also no output 13:07:36 are actions read incorrectly? 13:08:33 Nothing is read incorrectly, it seems 13:08:34 except... nodes 13:10:59 1) write code in one go 13:11:03 2) discover it doesn't work 13:11:07 3) rewrite most of the code 13:11:12 3) debug the part that you suspect failing the most 13:11:17 4) find issue in the simplest == 13:11:18 5) hate Java 13:11:32 also 13:11:33 i fixed it 13:12:43 Taneb 13:12:47 Yay! 13:12:52 your little Hello, World! somehow prints 13:12:54 "Hello,2world" 13:12:59 (i think you broke something) 13:13:07 Close, though 13:13:12 i'll send you the half-finished interpreter in a sef 13:13:13 sec* 13:13:13 No exclamation mark? 13:13:17 no exclamation mark. 13:13:27 (lacks working Input, that's why half-working) 13:13:43 i'll try my hello world first, tho 13:14:22 your 100-line Hello World is even better 13:14:26 outputs "Hfc'g&d" 13:14:31 by now i'm not sure if it's an interpreter bug 13:14:32 or... 13:15:04 actually 13:15:10 i quite honestly think it's some bug in the interpreter 13:15:32 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:16:29 -!- cheater_ has joined. 13:16:30 my claims were confirmed 13:17:42 What was the problem 13:17:47 i am not sure yet! 13:17:55 but my original hello world kills the entire interpreter 13:18:04 i think it's all in the parser 13:18:04 :/ 13:18:48 i'll write some debug code 13:19:02 make it output what it thinks the program is 13:19:09 that's what i want to do 13:20:44 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:21:29 -!- cheater_ has joined. 13:23:38 >ACTION: 68 commands 13:23:43 >I have 108 commands 13:23:43 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood). 13:23:44 Lolwut 13:23:51 102 commands* 13:24:38 -!- cheater_ has joined. 13:29:10 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood). 13:30:11 but it finds the correct amount of strings 13:30:15 which makes me think the issue is somewhere else 13:30:22 Hmmm 13:31:14 for(int si=0;si *MEGA FACEPALM 13:31:22 (it's supposed to be strings.size()) 13:31:39 now it loads all the data 13:31:40 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 13:31:47 but it turns out my Hello World spitted out garbage 13:31:53 -!- cheater_ has joined. 13:32:53 right 13:32:58 so your code is much closer to the real thing 13:33:02 it still outputs Hello,2world 13:33:04 but i'll fix it from there 13:34:24 fixed the space 13:34:36 What was wrong? 13:36:03 I think I have the exclamation mark fixed 13:36:41 Try adding "Fire TwoFalse 13:36:50 Fire TwoTrue" before the stop 13:39:06 nah 13:39:07 fixed it 13:39:13 i think my solution is similar 13:39:17 updating post 13:39:21 Already done so 13:39:26 yay 13:39:47 now i need to implement the input code. somehow. 13:40:08 I was outputting 0x33 instead of 0x33 13:40:40 0x33 instead of 0x21, maybe? :P 13:41:01 Yes 13:42:06 I was doing 3 rather than 21 13:42:17 2 times mistake combo 13:48:37 oh, yay 13:48:38 i added input 13:48:41 and fixed another bug 13:48:51 i think it's release-ready by now 13:49:01 i'll just JAR it up 13:52:57 oh shit i forgot to code in nested compares 13:54:42 but i'll need to code in space counting and whatnot... 13:54:45 i'll do it later 13:54:45 afk 13:56:05 -!- PatashuWarg has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 14:00:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:07:09 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:09:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:10:43 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 14:10:52 -!- derrik has joined. 14:39:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:48:30 i'll just JAR it up <-- err 14:48:32 you used java? 14:48:33 eww 14:50:49 asiekierka: question. What order are automatic nodes fired in? 14:57:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:57:09 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:57:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:59:03 -!- cheater_ has joined. 15:03:05 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood). 15:09:12 -!- cheater_ has joined. 15:18:12 Taneb from first found in text to last found in text 15:18:14 so in file's order 15:18:17 Vorpal i know Java is ugly 15:18:23 i wanted it done quickly and not felt like learning Python 15:18:41 now i see myself rewriting the iterative approach i have now into a recursive approach 15:23:57 Recursion.... in Java.... 15:24:11 Does Java actually do tail-call elimination? 15:24:31 I'm not sure if it's specified to, but interps are certainly allowed to, and I suspect most of the big-name ones do 15:27:46 asiekierka: logic gates are easy, I've made NAND and XOR just now 15:27:49 But I have to go now 15:27:51 So by 15:27:52 e 15:32:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:42:08 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:16:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:20:30 Would I recieve death threats if I made Ook++? 16:21:09 not from me, I'd just look down at you disapprovingly 16:21:49 type World i a = [Map i a]; type WorldTransformer t a = Map i (a -> a) 16:21:55 But orang-utans also say Eek! 16:22:24 transform :: World i a -> WorldTransformer i b -> World i b 16:22:26 muhahahahahahaha! 16:22:33 > 8 * 170 16:22:34 1360 16:22:46 * CakeProphet is changing the world. 16:22:51 Wait, what. 16:23:17 > 9 * 170 16:23:18 1530 16:24:49 sum $ (*) <$> [100,70,0] <*> 9 16:24:50 > sum $ (*) <$> [100,70,0] <*> 9 16:24:52 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) 16:24:52 arising from a use of `e_11007009' at ... 16:25:16 > sum ((*) <$> [100,70,0] <*> 9) 16:25:18 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) 16:25:18 arising from a use of `e_11007009' at ... 16:25:20 :( 16:27:47 > (*) <$> [100,70,0] <*> 9 16:27:48 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) 16:27:48 arising from a use of `e_11007009' at ... 16:27:53 what? 16:30:06 @pl \a -> (,) <$> a <*> a 16:30:07 ((,) <$>) . join (<*>) 16:30:59 > (,) <$>) . join (<*>) [0..] 16:31:00 : parse error on input `)' 16:31:09 > ((,) <$>) . join (<*>) [0..] 16:31:10 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> f a1 16:31:28 > ((,) <$>) . join (<*>) $ [0..] 16:31:29 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = a -> a1 16:31:37 I give up. I don't know Haskell. :P 16:32:17 oh it's pl's fault this time. 16:32:33 @pl \a -> (((,) <$> a) <*> a) 16:32:35 (<*>) =<< ((,) <$>) 16:33:11 > (<*>) =<< ((,) <$>) $ [0..] 16:33:12 [(0,0),(0,1),(0,2),(0,3),(0,4),(0,5),(0,6),(0,7),(0,8),(0,9),(0,10),(0,11),... 16:33:27 > (<*>) -<< ((,) <$>) $ [0..] 16:33:28 Not in scope: `-<<' 16:33:47 > ((,) <$>) >>- (<*>) $ [0..] 16:33:48 No instance for (Control.Monad.Logic.Class.MonadLogic ((->) [b])) 16:33:48 arisin... 16:38:54 I've had an idea for an esolang! 16:39:05 Where nothing is defined except for error handling 16:39:06 would be nice if MonadLogic had interleaving for applicative or something. 16:39:14 Taneb: sounds interesting 16:39:33 of course you have to define some other things. the errors themselves. 16:40:08 also, it would be interesting if you could somehow improve on typical exception handling. 16:40:09 True 16:40:50 will the exceptions take parameters? if so you could pass other exceptions as parameters. 16:40:55 Would I recieve death threats if I made Ook++? // I will kill you for even SUGGESTING such a thing. 16:41:52 Taneb: also you probably need some kind of try-catch construct that can catch its own raises, to allow recursive computations. 16:45:11 but then you still have to figure out conditionals 16:45:37 maybe you'd need one value that isn't an exception, and some kind of primitive that implements conditionals on that distinction 16:48:17 well I guess try-catch is a kind of conditional. 16:51:34 I think you'll need functions as well 16:53:05 that either return values or raise exceptions. though actually you could make them all void, you just need a way to abstract. 16:53:26 functions that either do nothing or raise exceptions would be interesting. 16:55:16 with the recursive catch it would be very easy to implement Peano arithmetic. 16:55:31 with an S and 0 exception 16:57:29 so essentially the exceptions act as your data structures 16:58:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:59:23 Taneb: are you taking notes yet? :P 17:00:14 Yes 17:02:36 a "lower" primitive would be interesting. 17:03:01 How would that work? 17:05:30 -!- CakeProp1et has joined. 17:05:44 Taneb: what was the last thing I said? 17:05:54 a "lower" primitive would be interesting. 17:06:07 13:04 < CakeProphet> essentially it works like raise in reverse. It takes an exception back to the previous try-catch 17:06:10 13:05 < CakeProphet> or.... I guess raises an exception if there is no lower level. :P 17:06:18 13:05 < CakeProphet> or does nothing in that case. 17:07:12 i'm totally programming computers with my mouse 17:07:14 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:07:25 -!- CakeProp1et has changed nick to CakeProphet. 17:08:35 also, tuples would be handy I think 17:09:03 though not strictly necessary 17:09:55 an n-tuple would just be an anonymous n-argument exception. 17:10:58 you guys are over the head of average joe 17:11:23 really, I'm starting to think that exception handling essentially just adds a second call stack. 17:11:29 We are #esoteric, derric 17:11:38 s/derric/derrik/ 17:11:53 it would be interesting to have more than two call stacks, that you could name. 17:12:25 awesomities upon awesomities 17:13:05 no, no awesomitie-on-awesomitie porn 17:13:24 this is a strictly safe-for-work channel. 17:13:30 `quote tasty treat 17:13:35 No output. 17:13:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:13:40 hi 17:13:47 :( 17:13:52 Taneb - after lots of hacking the recursive parser seems to work 17:14:00 granted, it's not any kind of good code, but it WORKS and i'm tired anyway 17:14:07 i just have to check if recursivity works 17:14:12 asiekierka: you should learn Haskell, right now. 17:14:19 i should 17:14:20 yeah 17:14:23 just not now 17:14:28 okay cool. 17:14:46 `quote Gregor 17:14:47 14) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 53) Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you. \ 54) If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... I'd call it jabbear. \ 55) GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity 17:15:10 brb 17:16:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:17:16 back 17:17:19 back 17:17:48 > "back" 17:17:50 "back" 17:18:00 !echo back 17:18:00 back 17:18:43 ^bf ,[>,]<[.<]!kcab 17:18:43 back 17:18:52 yes! it works 17:18:55 Taneb i finished the interpreter 17:19:01 Hurrah! 17:19:02 speaking of kcab 17:19:02 it has a hacky parser but it works 17:19:08 some kebab would be nice 17:19:19 shish or donner? 17:19:27 döner 17:19:35 sheesh. 17:19:37 we don't have shish 17:19:52 tested it in all cases i thought of 17:19:53 :t intersperse 17:19:53 it works! 17:19:54 forall a. a -> [a] -> [a] 17:19:54 They're just a bunch of things on sticks then fried! 17:19:59 i'll just make the debug code more debug 17:20:06 :t intercalate 17:20:06 what 17:20:07 forall a. [a] -> [[a]] -> [a] 17:20:11 no they are not 17:20:17 @hoohle [a] -> [a] -> [a] 17:20:18 Prelude (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] 17:20:18 Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] 17:20:18 Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a] 17:20:57 http://www.google.fi/search?tbm=isch&hl=fi&source=hp&biw=1170&bih=558&q=d%C3%B6ner&gbv=2&oq=d%C3%B6ner&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=0l0l0l8439l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0 17:21:03 @hoogle [a] - 17:21:04 Parse error: 17:21:04 --count=20 "[a] -" 17:21:04 ^ 17:21:08 @hoogle [a] -> [a] 17:21:09 Prelude cycle :: [a] -> [a] 17:21:09 Prelude init :: [a] -> [a] 17:21:09 Prelude reverse :: [a] -> [a] 17:21:22 http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&biw=1366&bih=631&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=shish&oq=shish&aq=f&aqi=g7&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9418l10217l0l10719l5l5l0l0l0l0l138l614l1.4l5l0 17:21:28 > fix (\a -> (++) =<< reverse) 17:21:29 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([a] -> [a]) 17:21:29 arising from a use ... 17:21:34 > fix (\a -> (++) =<< reverse) "hello" 17:21:36 "ollehhello" 17:21:39 oh you meant that shish are 17:21:48 well true, but as i said, we don't really have those 17:22:06 > fix ((++) =<< reverse) "hello" 17:22:07 Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> t' 17:22:07 against inferr... 17:22:12 > fix (\a -(++) =<< reverse) "hello" 17:22:13 : parse error on input `-' 17:22:14 bah 17:22:29 but döners are the awesome 17:22:31 > fix (\a -> (++) =<< reverse $ a) "hello" 17:22:32 Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> t' 17:22:32 against inferr... 17:22:38 I am Lymee in disguise. 17:22:56 @hoogle a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h -> i 17:23:11 thread killed 17:23:15 Worked up to h, funnily enough. 17:23:26 @hoogle a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h 17:23:28 Data.List zipWith7 :: (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [e] -> [f] -> [g] -> [h] 17:23:28 System.Time TimeDiff :: Int -> Int -> Int -> Int -> Int -> Int -> Integer -> TimeDiff 17:23:28 Network.Browser AuthDigest :: String -> String -> String -> String -> Maybe Algorithm -> [URI] -> Maybe String -> [Qop] -> Authority 17:23:38 CakeProphet, you are not. 17:24:00 @hoogle zipWith8 17:24:01 No results found 17:24:07 @hoogle zipWith7 17:24:08 Data.List zipWith7 :: (a -> b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [e] -> [f] -> [g] -> [h] 17:24:14 googling döner pictures = not a good idea 17:24:21 > fix ((++) . reverse) "hello" 17:24:26 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 17:24:40 > ((++) . reverse) "hello" 17:24:41 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show 17:24:42 ([GHC.... 17:24:53 > ((++) . reverse) "hello" "a" 17:24:57 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 17:25:41 is that deeply disturbing to anyone else? 17:25:46 not at all 17:25:50 because i'm mentally ignoring it 17:26:16 you can't ignore my girth. 17:27:19 do you gear a lot? 17:27:41 do I.... what does that mean? 17:27:52 well where does girth come from then 17:27:58 has to come from something 17:28:25 http://www.geekstir.com/gary-oak-you-cant-ignore-his-girth 17:28:27 No, he's referring to what's keeping his saddle in place 17:28:43 I am referring to an internet meme but Taneb's answer is acceptable I guess. 17:30:18 ok 17:30:22 so i'd upload my interpreter somewhere 17:30:32 that has to be the stupidest meme 17:30:34 but my server admin made the VPS _DIE._ 17:30:44 anyone with 40KB of server space? 17:30:46 but seriously, how do you form irth-forms 17:30:46 oklopol: yeah it's pretty dumb. 17:30:56 like kill => kirth? 17:30:57 please? 17:31:02 it basically wishes it were the bloodninja cyber logs. 17:31:03 oklopol: what? 17:31:07 There are these things called file upload services where you can put whatever. 17:31:18 CakeProphet: what is unclear to you 17:31:26 girth is like... a word. 17:31:30 there is no -irth form 17:31:41 if there was an irth form, i wouldn't have to ask 17:31:55 -!- derrik has left. 17:31:56 fizzie i do not like rapidshare or megaupload 17:31:59 mediafire is fine, but... but... meh 17:32:04 anyway there's also birth 17:32:06 i just want something without all this glitteryness everywhere 17:32:09 oklopol: okay now you're just confusing me. 17:32:16 which comes from bear 17:32:20 uuencode + pastebin? 17:32:54 so the irth form makes a verb into the event of that action ending 17:33:05 oklopol: like, there's nothing to interpret linguistically 17:33:07 not sure how gear => girth makes sense though 17:33:18 dammit i'll just use dropbox 17:33:26 1. The measurement around the middle of something, esp. a person's waist. 17:33:32 like.. it's just a word... with a meaning. 17:33:33 there is no pun. 17:33:41 or whatever. 17:33:45 yyyyyyyeah right 17:33:50 bear -> birth 17:33:55 Taneb http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29165587/binodu1.zip 17:33:58 gear -> gearth 17:34:11 okay where the fuck does mirth come from 17:34:24 mear. 17:34:26 what, why are you doing this. 17:34:29 bear -> shit, in the woods. 17:34:35 is that a verb? 17:34:36 Which is a variation of mere, meaning a big pond 17:34:48 added on wiki 17:34:49 but what does that mean as a word 17:34:49 As in, Windemere 17:34:57 [vi] [rude] to urinate, to pee, to piss (on). It appears in the phrase meado por los perros ‘pissed on by dogs’, meaning ‘screwed up, terribly unlucky 17:34:59 and how does the ending of doing a pond make you really happy 17:35:02 I'm assuming that is spanish 17:35:14 oklopol: Well, if it's a *big* pond. 17:35:25 hmm 17:35:25 oklopol: but yeah, definitely looking into it too much. 17:35:53 Fear -> firth? (2. firth -- (a long narrow estuary (especially in Scotland))) 17:36:00 Taneb: ah, good point, earth-endings are probably just alternative spellings 17:36:05 for instance earth itself 17:36:13 from "to ear" 17:36:20 ...what is this. 17:36:25 this is all false I'm pretty sure 17:36:29 I think you're just making stuff up. 17:36:40 Earth, the earest. 17:37:49 dear -> dearth 17:38:03 okay so i think we have pretty much proved that the irth forms do exist, but what we still lack is a good explanation for what the semantics actually are 17:38:14 i'm not sure i covered it completely yet 17:38:16 you guys are inventing these linguistic shenanigans to ruin what was a completely acceptable bit of humor involving dicks. 17:38:25 because for instance i'm not sure how earth is the end of all earing. 17:38:36 oklopol: It's because it's so endearing. 17:38:39 Put your ear to the ground? 17:38:46 hear -> hearth? 17:39:05 huh 17:39:07 peir -> Perth? 17:39:13 wow 17:39:26 ..... 17:39:31 it's all really really obvious now 17:39:36 no, this is all false. There is no connection between any of that stuff. 17:39:37 why didn't i see this before 17:40:02 we should call the government of english about this discovirth 17:40:20 TO OXFORD UNIVERSITY! 17:40:28 what 17:40:32 you haven't discovered anything. 17:40:35 oxfirth 17:41:32 how in hell was that pokemon thing funny 17:41:47 It's a meme. 17:41:57 It needs to be spreadable, not funny. 17:42:08 Like butter 17:42:12 that is a true 17:42:18 trith 17:42:21 *trirth 17:42:35 you can't ignore my trirth 17:42:40 see? I just made a variation. 17:43:08 trirth is pretty standard english 17:43:37 uh, no 17:43:44 what is it with all of these false things you're saying. 17:43:57 heh! trirth, eh? 17:44:08 > let icbin = "I can't believe it's not \"" ++ icbin ++ "\"" in icbin 17:44:10 "I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's... 17:44:46 fizzie: you know you could do that a lot easier with fix or cycle. 17:46:02 > fix $ ("I can't believe it's not \"" ++) . (++ "\"") 17:46:03 "I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's... 17:46:06 That's not really any easier. 17:46:14 I want the closing quotes for balance, you see. 17:46:42 no. 17:47:03 > cycle "I can't believe it's not \"" 17:47:04 "I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's not \"I can't believe it's... 17:47:13 woah it's like the same thing. 17:47:15 That doesn't have the closing quotes either. 17:47:28 asiekierka: still says "Hello2World!" 17:47:36 i think something is wrong with CakeProphet today 17:47:36 yes 17:47:41 i didn't fix it on the wiki, there 17:47:54 i will right now tho 17:47:54 oklopol: more false things. 17:48:08 false thoughts. 17:48:18 btw, asiekierka, you are not logged into the wiki 17:48:20 false lies 17:48:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:48:24 Taneb i know 17:48:27 i'm too lazy to. 17:48:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 17:48:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:50:18 fix put on wiki, Taneb 17:50:21 now code in Binodu, FOR IT'S WORKING 17:50:34 i plan to work on 99 bottles of beer later 17:50:47 asiekierka: drink plenty of water to avoid a hangover. 17:50:57 darn cp was faster 17:51:14 yeah I'm quick to pounce on that shit. 17:51:15 ok 17:51:16 99 bottles of water 17:51:22 no that's lame. 17:51:31 you should get shitfaced but avoid the hangover. 17:51:46 99 pieces of cake 17:51:49 mmmmmm 17:51:53 99 pieces of cake with the prophet, 17:51:54 99 bottles of birth on the wall 17:51:55 99 pieces of cake. 17:52:01 oklopol: lol 17:52:09 Nom one down and don't pass it on, 17:52:13 98 pieces of cake with the prophet. 17:53:11 > [99..0] 17:53:13 [] 17:53:15 egads! 17:53:16 i wonder if i can still get a dirth from the kirth place 17:53:54 IKIRTH? 17:54:02 0 bottles of beer on the wall, 17:54:05 0 bottles of beer. 17:54:14 asiekierka: Still saying "Hello,2World!" 17:54:25 Taneb IT DOES NOT. I tested. 17:54:35 Whoops, I think I used unsigned 17:54:39 255 bottles of beer on the wall. 17:56:33 asiekierka: are you sure the one on the wiki is the right one? 17:56:40 checking 17:56:53 @pl (\x -> show x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++show x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++show(x-1)++" bottles of beer on the wall.") <$> reverse [1..99] 17:56:57 liftM2 (++) show ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . ap ((++) . show) ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall.") . show . subtract 1)) <$> 17:56:57 reverse [1..99] 17:56:57 optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue. 17:57:02 @pl-resume 17:57:06 liftM2 (++) show ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . liftM2 (++) show ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall.") . show . subtract 1)) <$> 17:57:06 reverse [1..99] 17:57:07 I've deleted it and reinstalled it, still getting Hello,2World! 17:57:47 it was broken (i forgot to add spaces) 17:57:49 now it's good 17:57:52 i just copypasted it 17:57:53 IT WORKS 17:58:21 > (\x -> show x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++show x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++show(x-1)++" bottles of beer on the wall.") =<< reverse [1..99] 17:58:24 "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it... 17:58:36 You can do the [99,98..1] thing too, though I guess reverse [1..99] is not any worse. 17:58:48 ah right 17:59:33 > [1,1,2,3,5,8,13..] 17:59:34 : parse error on input `..' 17:59:40 lambdabot: Oh come on, it's *obvious*. 18:00:19 > (\x -> x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++ show . subtract 1 . read ++" bottles of beer on the wall.").show =<< reverse [1..99] 18:00:20 lambdabot: YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARDO 18:00:20 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String -> GHC.Base.String' 18:00:21 a... 18:02:14 @pl (\x -> x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++ (show . subtract 1 . read) x ++" bottles of beer on the wall. ").show =<< [99,98..1] 18:02:17 ap (++) ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . ap (++) ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall. ") . show . subtract 1 . read)) . show =<< [99, 18:02:17 98..1] 18:02:33 beautiful 18:02:51 asiekierka: can't get it working :/ 18:03:22 Taneb why not 18:03:35 Still doing Hello,2World! 18:03:55 Can you test that program, see if it's the program? 18:04:17 -!- elliott has joined. 18:04:30 helo 18:04:30 elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 18:04:52 @pl (\x -> x++" bottles of beer on the wall, "++x++" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, "++ (show . subtract 1 . read) x ++" bottles of beer on the wall. ").show =<< [99,98..1] 18:04:55 ap (++) ((" bottles of beer on the wall, " ++) . ap (++) ((" bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, " ++) . (++ " bottles of beer on the wall. ") . show . subtract 1 . read)) . show =<< [99, 18:04:55 98..1] 18:05:26 reshow f = show . f . read is a nifty function 18:06:00 > let reshow f = show . f . read in reshow (+1) "99" 18:06:02 "100" 18:06:21 call it "perl" 18:06:29 hi elliott :D 18:06:37 harr harr. except it's HASKELL OOOOH WHAT NOW. 18:06:50 Haskperl 18:07:08 Perlell 18:07:45 Herl? Paskell (lol...) 18:08:37 I once told someone that Haskell was my favorite language. 18:08:53 and they thought I said Pascal, and gave me strange looks. 18:09:05 Could be worse 18:09:34 They could have thought you said Klingon 18:10:31 or Objective C 18:11:31 Or... MS SQL? 18:13:04 you know what the world is sorely lacking? 18:13:11 a hybrid language between Visual Basic and Java. 18:13:24 ...Visual J#? 18:13:39 Jasic 18:14:33 oh wow there's actually a visual J# 18:15:22 00:14:56: itidus20: the question i'm having is whether there has yet been any procedurally generated work whose value goes beyond just "look at this clever procedural generation" 18:15:26 does Minecraft count? 18:15:31 does C# count? 18:15:44 heh 18:15:49 VB.NET and C# are pretty similar languages except for the syntax, nowadays 18:15:50 CakeProphet: Not any more. 18:15:59 00:16:56: otoh procedurally generated works _without_ AI can still showcase the beauty of mathematics 18:15:59 if a program spits out Hamlet, it's amazing, whether it has intelligence or not is irrelevant 18:16:09 (re 00:17:18: and in some way, perhaps that's all they can do) 18:16:12 elliott: cat sure is amazing. 18:16:21 Gregor: har har har 18:16:24 :P 18:16:36 elliott: unless it gets it off the Internet? 18:16:41 Incidentally, "cat hamlet" = best Hamlet ever. 18:16:43 or it's hardcoded? 18:16:55 00:21:06: but if a work is long, achieving something which looks consistently intelligent by chance has vanishingly low probability 18:16:55 you think humans can perform a perfect turing test given a novel-sized output? 18:16:57 in all situations? 18:16:59 wowzers 18:17:14 i'm sure a program could write a terrible romance novel pretty easily and it'd sell :P 18:17:27 Gregor: OK now I want to see Hamlet played by a cat. 18:17:30 ^style 18:17:30 Especially if it had vampires 18:17:30 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 18:17:42 ^style ff7 18:17:43 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 18:17:49 fungot: write a romance novel 18:17:50 CakeProphet: i had to choose either auto or manual.... that name? you mean only a matter of the ancients, right? an' it's my own weaknesses are what created me. ( gosh, it can't be expected to remember each person's name. 18:17:55 To meow, or not to meow? 18:18:00 fungot: write a romance novel 18:18:01 CakeProphet: i'll give you back the money i stole from you! you can't die! you! what now? call it shinra mansion. i'll write again.... 18:18:04 ais523: well, the basic point is that if it spits out a compelling work (without cheating), then it has value, whether or not the program is intelligent enough 18:18:14 indeed 18:18:14 CakeProphet: call it That Sword Alone Can't Stop 18:18:19 s/ enough// 18:18:28 -!- cheater_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:18:29 ...How do you sign up to be turing tested? 18:18:50 00:23:55: hm? i'd imagine fungot's success is precisely because it implements a framework of language - if a very shallow one 18:18:50 imagine if it operated on bits rather than words 18:18:50 elliott: tifa always used to get back. come on and take a picture of you that, there's something personal too... 18:18:56 nobody would give a shit 18:19:30 00:25:10: evincar: common fungot bug in how it selects the next word 18:19:30 banana problem 18:19:30 elliott: gosh! you're comin' with shinra now. why'd you bring your chocobo to this. 18:19:36 lol 18:19:49 what 18:19:53 ? 18:20:08 fungot's last line made me laugh. 18:20:08 CakeProphet: you don't get depressed over a thing, rookie! it's full, so let's hurry before they get in!! 18:20:12 oh 18:20:45 00:33:43: but if fungot is passed off as an actual human, with human rights and human access to resources then trouble brews 18:20:45 elliott: oh... is bugenhagen...? my family... friends... the pain in my dreams so often... ri.... 18:20:51 i would fully support this 18:20:54 cue ais523 saying he wouldn't 18:21:10 fungot would be ab excellent dictator. 18:21:10 CakeProphet: you mean the owner of the way you walk, gesture... 18:21:16 giving computers human rights would be a little complicated 18:21:20 heh, that's an apposite reply 18:21:39 s/ab/an/ 18:22:11 00:43:11: i would like to procedurally generate graphics for scribblenauts 18:22:11 I wonder how large Scribblenaut's vocab. actually is 18:22:17 [asterisk]ts' 18:22:26 Smaller than super scribblenauts 18:22:39 `quote < CakeProphet> fungot would be ab excellent dictator. 18:22:39 CakeProphet: i'm... i'm used to talk... man, i'm pissed!! get it. thanks for showing us! 18:22:39 It's fairly large, though there are a few words it doens't have. 18:22:41 No output. 18:22:42 kik iios = 18:22:43 e4tjuishrwrt 18:22:50 I can't think what they are fomr the top of my head, though. 18:22:51 stupid irssi 18:22:56 "love" 18:23:09 "beer" 18:23:14 And by words it doens't have I specifically mean ones I expected it to. 18:23:16 fungot: love and beer 18:23:16 CakeProphet: you awake? want me to do with what we did it! 18:23:41 "frisbee" 18:23:45 Super Scribblenauts has a lot more possibilities, but it has some problems due to not being made fomr scratch. 18:23:52 "death" 18:23:59 Actually, it does have death 18:24:02 -!- Monster has joined. 18:24:08 all things must die. 18:24:10 Monster: hi monster 18:24:11 Certain adjectives are built-in to certain words, for isntance,. 18:24:17 hi 18:24:24 Hello Monster 18:24:31 i basically just woke up.. good timing 18:24:37 Monsieur Monster 18:24:44 It also relies a lot on defaults, rather than selecting undefined qualities differently each time. 18:24:46 ^style darwin 18:24:46 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 18:24:57 fungot: frisbee? 18:24:59 Taneb: i overlooked/ advantage :) allowing several shots to be fired, which is eagerly sought by innumerable ants, chiefly belonging to fnord and fnord " 9 deg s., 172 deg w.); discovered in/ areas :) subsidence volcanos were either absent or inactive,/ inference i think you misunderstand me. i remember well a walk i took with me a stallion and a mare from/ beautiful fnord pigeons :) australia " fnord lophotes) behaves, as desc 18:25:04 Darwin's still the most smiliest writer ever. 18:25:26 One day I'll fixamate. 18:25:42 fungot: he's fairly fnordy as well 18:25:43 CakeProphet: my father has paid/ bill, but to/ inferiority :)/ illegitimate offspring from all three forms growing together in pools in/ interior :) queensland. to mr. g. planchon see ( nat. lib.: birds,' vol. iii. 1861, p. 11.) 18:25:52 / = the, :) = of. 18:26:24 is that a darwin only thing? 18:26:48 Probably. A script mishap during the model-generation. 18:27:22 Filtered unused punctuation out too, which upset the token indices. (The first K token numbers are hardcoded to be the punctuation.) 18:27:41 So two of his most common words got mapped to the two last punctuation tokens. 18:27:47 ah. 18:28:02 ^style 18:28:03 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 18:28:09 ^style irc 18:28:09 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 18:28:24 fungot: beer, love, death, and frisbee 18:28:25 Taneb: i am still on the top shelf with two fluoros, two " pillars" ( one of my 2.0 goals: support more than 4 or so lines in a fnord 18:29:05 fungot: do that thing you do so well 18:29:05 CakeProphet: i'll think of that 18:29:33 fizzie: this is an interesting bot. I'd like to look at the source sometime... except it's in befunge right? 18:29:39 ^source 18:29:39 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 18:29:46 It's publicly available. 18:30:02 yeah.. but I can't read befunge very well. I guess that's something to learn how to do in my spare time. 18:30:19 I don't think anyone can really read befunge all that well. 18:30:30 At least other people's. 18:30:57 * CakeProphet needs to learn about AI. 18:31:06 though I don't know if fungot technically counts as AI 18:31:07 CakeProphet: i like the exercises, then go to the summer cabin to sleep 18:31:24 There's a Perl version of the babbling at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/tree/HEAD:/varikn -- not the model-building scripts, but a test script that can be used to babble, plus the conversion scripts from standard ARPA ngram model format. 18:31:24 fizzie: i could check with finger. please remove all two- or three button mice and all keyboards. 18:31:44 "Uh." 18:32:21 01:28:56: I don't have any version of Haskel, so I might as well go with GHC so i can try out the language int he first place. 18:32:24 two Ls 18:32:29 and you probably want the haskell program 18:32:30 erm 18:32:32 and you probably want the haskell platform 18:32:37 but probably too late, sigh 18:32:46 No worries. 18:32:56 01:32:29: * MDude recoils at the sight of pink flowers. 18:32:56 01:33:01: Do not worry because the flowers are not part of the Haskell program as far as I know. 18:32:57 :DDD 18:33:00 The GHC site itself told me I should go for the platform instead. 18:33:02 MDude: oh didn't realise you were still here 18:34:14 fizzie: sometime when I'm less busy I'll have to sit down and comprehend everything you just said. 18:34:32 he said anything confusing? 18:34:57 elliott: yeah see there's this whole knowledge thing. 18:35:13 some people have parts of it and others don't. The lack of it can make certain sentences hard to understand. 18:35:27 04:04:23: http://ideone.com/PULCM 18:35:27 04:04:41: According to _why, it should be Yes, Dr. Cham electrocuted his niece Hannah. 18:35:34 Sgeo: why's poignant guide is written for an old version of Ruby. 18:36:16 I figured as much. 18:36:26 Is it still useful to read? 18:36:39 if you like foxes and bacon, yes. 18:36:47 the soundtrack is better, though. 18:36:58 (http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/soundtrack/) 18:37:07 Sgeo: also it's totally incomplete, so w/e 18:37:18 it's a fun book though 18:37:28 if you aren't reading the sidebars you suck 18:37:30 super scribblenauts increased adjectives but didn't really increase nouns signifigantly as i understand it 18:39:16 I think a good example of how Super scribblenauts works oddly is that if you make a pregnant mom, she gives birth to a baby mom. 18:39:22 Only babies give birth to babies. 18:39:48 Which is distinct fomr a baby . 18:39:51 :D 18:39:55 So you have baby babies. 18:39:58 pregnant pregnancy 18:40:05 *from 18:40:10 Deadly death 18:40:26 04:32:22: When it comes to games especially, your only choices for good pre-existing scripting languages are Lua and Python. 18:40:36 Squirrel is used extensively in the game industry and is designed for the purpose 18:41:03 I tried, and haven't found a way to make anything in super scribblenauts reliably self-replicating. 18:42:06 05:25:33: hm that was actually a funny one 18:42:06 yeah that was a good xkcd 18:42:32 Factor is supposedly nice for games, though I haven't tried it, and also it's stack-based. 18:43:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Triplet 18:43:02 HATRED 18:43:16 MDude: Factor would be a very poor choice of extension language, IMO 18:43:26 For writing a game from scratch, maybe, but not as an extension language 18:45:40 12:47:16: it already has the Interpreter class and all the sub-classes (coding in java because i'm lazy) 18:45:55 (coding in java because i'm lazy) 18:45:55 yes 18:45:59 don't go bitchy about it 18:46:01 today scientists found that the amount of sense the definition of "lazy" makes is correlated with intelligence 18:46:17 i'm lazy, i dont want to learn a new programming language 18:46:21 and C is not good for quick coding 18:46:24 therefore i used java 18:46:32 elliott nonono 18:46:43 they found that the amount of projects of yours that use Java is correlated with intelligence 18:47:16 What if you use all of Indonesia 18:48:19 I have been thinking about writing my own game scripting language for a while. 18:49:04 15:24:11: Does Java actually do tail-call elimination? 18:49:04 15:24:31: I'm not sure if it's specified to, but interps are certainly allowed to, and I suspect most of the big-name ones do 18:49:09 ais523: um, afaik the sun jvm does not at all 18:49:19 really? wow 18:49:50 why would it? nobody does that in java 18:50:04 gcc is rare by providing TRE 18:50:04 16:27:47: > (*) <$> [100,70,0] <*> 9 18:50:04 16:27:48: No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [a]) 18:50:04 u r smart 18:51:01 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:52:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:52:08 17:43:08: trirth is pretty standard english 18:52:08 17:43:37: uh, no 18:52:08 17:43:44: what is it with all of these false things you're saying. 18:52:16 CakeProphet: umm dude are you even an english native? 18:52:55 yeah man 18:52:58 hi elliott! :) 18:53:58 CakeProphet, how old are you? 18:54:55 -!- pumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:55:20 elliott: yes I am. 18:55:24 Phantom_Hoover: 20 18:55:36 CakeProphet: then how are you unaware of those forms 18:55:42 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:55:45 what the hell is trirth? 18:55:55 CakeProphet, we don't have time for this. 18:56:15 oh, right, you're doing the obnoxious "i don't like this so I'll pretend not to understand it" thing 18:56:21 prescriptivism is awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeee 18:56:41 I'm aware that there are words with -irth at the end, but I'm pretty sure they're not forms of different words in the way that -ness at the end of an adjective makes it a noun. 18:56:45 what? 18:56:51 no, I really don't know what the word trirth means. 18:57:03 yeah i'm out 18:57:39 okay. 18:58:15 Should we tell him? 18:58:21 Because this is rather fun to watch 18:58:29 CakeProphet, it's basic grammar. 18:58:45 Taneb: we're TRYING to tell him. 18:59:02 Not. Hard. enough. 18:59:06 i hope kebab places haven't closed during my long procrastinirth :( 18:59:46 extent of... truth? 18:59:56 CakeProphet, 17:32:54: so the irth form makes a verb into the event of that action ending 19:00:00 What more do you want? 19:00:14 Trirth is when you stop trying. 19:00:17 what is mirth the end of. 19:00:19 :D 19:00:35 mearing 19:00:36 sheesh 19:00:51 ... 19:01:35 me meo 19:02:03 er wait, mearme 19:02:08 Like, when you stop mearing, that's the mirth 19:02:23 Smirth is when you stop smearing. 19:02:46 Birth is when you stop being. 19:03:06 .... 19:03:07 oh i thought it was when you stop bearing 19:03:15 They named Perth that because they had gotten bored of building peirs 19:03:17 hmm 19:03:23 Taneb: haha 19:03:24 wait 19:03:27 not another fucking coastal city --Australians 19:03:31 brb, watching university challenge 19:03:32 oklopol, that's bearth. 19:03:34 maybe i don't completely understand this yet. 19:03:35 ah. 19:03:36 no, that's stupid. that's not an actual thing. 19:03:59 Taneb, tell us when watchirth. 19:04:29 *you watchirth 19:04:48 wow i didn't even know they can be used as verbs too 19:04:56 well i guess we all learned something today then, right CakeProphet? 19:05:13 oklopol, it's a tense too, although I forgive you because you're not a native speaker. 19:05:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:06:03 get outta jail free card 19:06:11 oklopol: the human brain can grep all kinds of meanings for words? sure. 19:06:20 CakeProphet: stop being an idio 19:06:21 t 19:06:23 it's not funny any more 19:06:31 CakeProphet, birth an idiot. 19:06:51 lets not forget the fact that humans created all the meanings for words :D 19:06:53 CakeProphet: that's not a good definition of learning imo, but i guess you agree 19:07:23 oh so girth is the end of getting (fat?) 19:07:24 but then, language is beyond the control of any individual human 19:07:28 or going? 19:07:30 elliott: I'm not being an idiot. 19:07:30 argh 19:07:31 i suck 19:07:40 elliott: it was never a joke. 19:07:45 lets not forget that humans created all the meanings for maths 19:07:46 oklopol: the end of getting is where the most common meaning of girth comes from, yes 19:07:50 okay 19:07:56 oklopol: it's where the end of all the food you've got is, basically 19:08:01 CakeProphet: go away 19:08:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:08:03 yep 19:08:11 quintopia: maths! 19:08:15 girth is another word for the diameter of a graph 19:08:24 hey i know what that is 19:08:50 did you know there are CA synchronization algorithms that work in linear time w.r.t. the girth of the given graph 19:09:08 no, i did not 19:09:18 please point me to the relevant papers 19:09:21 where by synchronization i mean the firing squad problem of making everything step into state f at the same time 19:09:23 i will 19:09:32 a human can create something.... but 19:09:53 it can take on a life of it's own as in the case of prometheus or frankenstein 19:10:09 i haven't heard the story of prometheus though 19:10:16 he stole fire 19:10:24 humm... lol.. 19:10:30 ok leave him out 19:11:04 perhaps you meant that other dude 19:11:32 pygmalion 19:11:40 well frankenstein novel is called something like "the new prometheus" which i never knew what that meant. hahaha 19:11:54 elliott: I'm about to go get my tires changed. I'm going to ask the mechanic when the wirth is. 19:12:08 perhaps in the sense of how he rebels against his creators 19:12:14 probably 19:12:16 CakeProphet: im not fucking interested 19:12:17 shut up 19:12:48 but language too, once it has been cast.. it sets its own way 19:13:06 why so harsh? 19:13:55 CakeProphet: because you're being an obvious troll 19:13:58 and i don't give a shit 19:14:02 elliott: .....how? 19:14:19 I'm doing this thing called disgareeing, that's all. 19:14:21 CakeProphet: HEY WHAT DOES "THE" MEAN 19:14:24 *disagreeing 19:14:46 the is the definite article, it specifies that the following noun is a specific instance rather than a general one. 19:15:06 CakeProphet: IVE NEVER HEARD THA 19:15:06 T 19:15:13 IM GOING TO THE WHOREHOUSE AND IM GOING TO ASK WHETHER THEY KNOW WHAT "THE" MEANS 19:15:17 SORRY [ASTERISK]A WOREHOUSE 19:15:22 awesome 19:16:06 I'm sure they do, they just couldn't explain it in words. 19:16:10 can't say the same thing about wirth. 19:16:14 since, you know, I just made it up. 19:16:43 06:57:39: pikhq_: NihilistDandy: HAHAHAHAHA I AM TAKING YOUR BELOVED HASKELL HOSTAGE 19:16:46 06:57:46: WHEN I AM THROUGH WITH IT YOU WON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT IT USED TO BE 19:16:49 06:58:02: I SHALL STRIKE INTROSPECTION THROUGH THE HEART OF THE THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:16:52 wut? 19:17:05 quintopia: i cannot find that one nice article on it :( 19:17:27 NihilistDandy: Read on to find what I was doing/am doing. 19:17:29 aw well thx anyways 19:17:33 CakeProphet: yeah I just made the up too 19:17:41 stop whining about standard features of english just because they're not in the fucking oed 19:17:41 god 19:17:43 i hate people like you 19:17:58 elliott: woah... 19:18:10 http://www.springerlink.com/content/7054v778717w353p/ is probably a good but i haven't read it yet 19:18:15 Modifying fields? Blasphemy! That's DATABASE TALK 19:18:21 this was a bit of a hobby of mine at some point 19:18:26 NihilistDandy: non-destructively :P 19:18:42 we had this HORRIBLE paper on the synchronization problem for p systems (for which the problem is trivial) 19:18:46 and i got interested 19:18:49 elliott: no I just disagree that it's a standard feature of english. 19:18:52 in the non-trivial one for ca 19:19:05 since words ending in -irth are quite few and don't seem to bear any common relation to one another. 19:19:15 People always ask me "Well, what if I need to implement a database in Haskell? WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?" 19:19:40 And then I point out that making your own database is stupid, since SQLite did it better than they would 19:19:49 besides, what is a firth the end of? 19:19:59 CakeProphet: Firth is the end of Forth 19:20:29 lol... 19:21:53 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:23:17 elliott: something I think you would enjoy: http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=w5s3sv43s3p98v45 19:23:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:23:40 CakeProphet: why 19:23:57 Glauds! How rorm it would be to pell back to the bewl and distunk them, distunk the whole delcot, let the drokes uncren them. 19:25:57 elliott: because it's a puzzle game centered on invented features of the english language. 19:26:16 I don't care about invented features of the english language 19:26:41 only the well-established universal ones, obviously. 19:27:00 Please stop bothering me with your inane crap. 19:28:34 That's not a dape I recognise. 19:29:10 elliott, *botherirth 19:29:25 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:29:27 Phantom_Hoover: Now THAT'S not standard usage :P 19:29:35 Watchirth has occured 19:29:44 I what both, hith, altogeth, fath are. 19:29:49 and what connection moth has to mother. 19:29:57 s/what/wonder what/ 19:30:46 Elliott hirth. 19:31:24 leath, feath, farth, furth, dith, and blath 19:33:48 Elliott HURD. 19:36:36 Elliot HURD of interfaces representing depth 19:38:12 > let hird = hurd ++ " of interfaces representing depth"; hurd = hird ++ " of Unix-replacing daemons" in hurd 19:38:16 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:45:10 > let hird = hurd ++ " of interfaces representing depth"; hurd = hird ++ " of Unix-replacing daemons" in take 60 hurd 19:45:14 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:45:16 Oh, duh. 19:50:50 heh 19:51:04 you could do it in reverse with : 19:52:15 "smomead gnicalper-xinU fo htped gnitneserper secafretni fo ... 19:52:35 p-adic strings 19:52:47 or something 19:52:52 how would that work? 19:54:22 is a deamom a deamon's parent? 19:54:40 lol, yes. 19:54:51 umm, daemom/daemon 19:57:03 :t ("I",("wonder",("if",("anyone",("has",("ever",("done",("this",())))))))) 19:57:04 ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ([Char], ())))))))) 19:57:37 explicitly typed fixed-length linked lists! 19:58:46 Linked tuples? 19:58:49 CakeProphet: see HList 19:58:57 it's an incredibly well-known technique. 19:59:01 Oleg. 19:59:10 http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/HList/, http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/HList/paper.pdf, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/HList 19:59:37 explicitly typed fixed-length linked lists! 19:59:44 also, there are much better ways to do this than an hlist-style representation. 19:59:51 hlist is all that and _heterogeneous_ 20:03:18 data QuadList a b c d = a :* QuadList b c d a | Empty 20:04:35 QuadList is more sophisticated 20:05:26 QuadList solves a completely different problem. 20:05:30 and is not appropriate for HList's main use cases. 20:06:34 baby murder? yeah, probably. 20:07:18 why else would it have so many typeclasses. 20:08:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:08:44 Just read the paper. 20:08:46 okay so a NonEmptyList would be [a] = a : [a] | Last a right? 20:09:04 data NonEmpty a = a :| [a] is the representation used by the commonly-used packages. 20:09:16 ah so it has to be infinite. 20:09:26 that, uh, makes sense. 20:09:26 and :| is an operator for constructing the first elemnt of a nonempty list? 20:09:38 CakeProphet: What? 20:09:47 ais523: it's a constructor 20:10:01 ah, right 20:10:02 elliott: oh I misread. 20:10:05 it's a constructor that looks like an operator 20:10:10 and infixes like one 20:10:15 ais523: it _is_ an operator 20:10:18 it's also a constructor 20:10:37 ais523: it starts with : because, you know how constructors have to start with uppercase letters? 20:10:40 : is the only uppercase /symbol/ 20:10:47 ah, aha 20:10:59 oh ho ho ho ho ho how clever Haskell 98 20:11:04 two thousand and ten now 20:11:55 >_> 20:20:36 -!- augur_ has joined. 20:21:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:22:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:22:46 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 20:22:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:27:40 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:31:20 -!- cheater has joined. 20:33:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:33:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 20:33:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:34:00 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:38:11 ais523: I just signed up for a free copy of that book that's on reddit so I can point at every page and say "that sucks, scapegoat does it better". 20:38:24 heh 20:39:00 (http://book.sourcegear.com/vcbe/request_book, if anyone is interested, but I suspect the offer will end fairly soon) 20:39:55 hmm, apparently it was on Hacker News last week, but that's a much smaller crowd 20:40:02 well, it's possible that some VCSes will do the same as Scapegoat in some situations 20:40:20 Interesting choices in the form. 20:40:41 it seems to cover a VCS made by the company offering it, so it's obviously partially a marketing tool 20:40:42 What the shit is Veracity? 20:40:48 NihilistDandy: see line above 20:40:56 Ah, that 20:41:16 but oh well, it might be interesting 20:41:28 http://www.ericsink.com/entries/vcbe_print_edition_free.html seems to justify it as something more than pure marketing, at least 20:41:40 especially since it's available in ebook format for free 20:42:37 -!- monqy has joined. 20:42:46 Indeed 20:43:08 I once requested the Z80 CPU datasheets from Zilog, and they mailed those all the way to Finland for free. It was a heartwarming gesture. Especially since I didn't really-really need those for anything. (Half of the book is just timing diagrams.) 20:43:09 http://veracity-scm.com/qa 20:43:11 Wut 20:43:11 Wait, wtf, it's a practical usage book? 20:43:19 I thought it would be an architecture book. 20:43:21 Lame. 20:43:36 Gregor: So what, it's free :-) 20:43:51 I'm mostly getting it because "hey, I can" and because I like to support non-traditional business models revolving around scarce resources. 20:44:00 elliott: Yeah, I can also read P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves books for free (the ones currently sitting on my DR800), only they're not terrible :P 20:44:08 Gregor: They're not made out of paper 20:44:14 elliott: Paper is obsolete. 20:44:18 Gregor: But http://www.ericsink.com/vcbe/vcbe_usletter_lo.pdf :-P 20:44:21 And sure 20:44:24 But people are still selling it 20:44:37 I ain't buying it! 20:44:54 And if you fill out that form you still wouldn't be buying it :P 20:45:07 Oh no, the guy from The Daily WTF likes it. And a Subversion developer. 20:45:09 MAYBE IT IS TERRIBLE 20:45:13 AND TWO OTHER SUBVERSION DEVELOPERS 20:45:15 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:45:41 The cover's not even very good, and I'll bet it's printed on shitty paper 20:45:43 ALSO 20:45:55 Do you remember that Books LLC situation? 20:46:01 Also this umbrella works wonders for murdering! 20:46:04 Then again, maybe that was in some other channel 20:46:46 NihilistDandy: What of it 20:46:53 Oh 20:46:54 I found a book from them 20:46:54 That thing 20:46:56 Heh 20:46:58 In a bookstore 20:47:03 O_O 20:47:16 :D 20:47:19 In 2009, Books LLC and its sister imprint General Books LLC produced respectively 224,460 and 11,887 titles.[12][13] 20:47:19 That image is not a computer generated stand-in 20:47:22 That's what they look like 20:47:29 NihilistDandy: You bought it right 20:47:31 PLEASE tell me you bought it 20:47:33 And it really is just copied data from Wikipedia 20:47:36 PLEASE tell me you bought it 20:47:41 How could I not? It cost a dollar 20:51:05 what book was it 20:52:36 So ... what of Books LLC? 20:52:39 What is it? Who cares? 20:53:03 Gregor: They reprint Wikipedia automatically. 20:53:03 Hmm. That's utterly surprising. Magic Set Editor actually builds and runs without patching. 20:53:05 Gregor: It's AMAZING. 20:53:09 Gregor: They have a book on esolangs. 20:53:20 Sgeo: Do you still have a link 20:53:22 It was amazing 20:53:24 elliott: OK ... so does PediaPress ... 20:53:34 Gregor: OK look you know how your fly-by-wire service are hilarious. 20:53:37 Books LLC is hilarious for the same reason. 20:53:38 Oh, automatically as in they just grab interrelated pages? 20:53:38 elliott, hold on 20:53:41 Gregor: Yep 20:53:44 Ahhhhhhh 20:53:49 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/esoteric-programming-languages-books-llc/1022380853?ean=9781155349770&itm=1&usri=brainfuck 20:53:49 Gregor: So they have THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of books :P 20:53:49 That's more automatic than I expected :P 20:53:58 Look at the one Sgeo linked it's amazing. 20:54:07 Esoteric Programming Language is apparently a language. 20:54:12 And LITERAL BEST COVER. 20:54:12 Best - title - ever 20:54:47 "Purchase includes free access to book updates online and a free trial membership in the publisher's book club where you can select from more than a million books without charge." 20:54:51 BEST CLUB 20:55:11 -!- kierra has joined. 20:55:26 lol, even the description is clearly automatic. 20:55:28 That's brilliance. 20:55:32 :) 20:55:45 And people who bought it also bought The Great Gatspy, 1984 and Lord of the Flies. 20:55:46 did anyone of you buy it 20:55:50 *Gatsby 20:56:36 It's an ebook, so no 20:56:40 Or hmm 20:56:40 is it 20:56:53 Wow it isn't 20:56:54 no i think you can probably paper it 20:57:00 you need that on your bookshelf 20:57:04 Gregor: Ye of disposable income, go buy it 20:57:05 Take pics 20:57:06 No, it's not; if it was any ebook, I'd almost 1/10th consider it :P 20:57:12 s/any/an/ 20:57:19 I did buy the PediaPress book on compiler construction. 20:57:20 6 20:57:20 i wonder what the back looks like 20:57:42 NihilistDandy, what does the back look lilee? 20:57:43 like 20:57:51 Paperback 20:57:51 $19.79 20:57:51 $20.59 List Price 20:57:51 (Save 3%) 20:57:52 Gregor: Oh come on, it's even discounted. 20:57:57 you save 3% Gregor 20:57:58 Gregor: It's available USED for ten dollars. 20:58:00 how can you say no to that 20:58:12 3% is like.. 20:58:18 at least 5 free wikipedia articles 20:58:22 Sgeo: Same as the front, but with no words 20:58:41 NihilistDandy, what about the uh... the bind? 20:58:50 is it right or left oriented 20:59:03 or is it, awesomely enough, HORIZONTAL 20:59:19 It's bound just like a normal English book 20:59:35 It's a description of the works of this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Frayn 20:59:41 I think what cheater is asking is if there's writing on it 20:59:49 And the very first page contains an unparsed wikipedia link 21:00:00 And if so, which way must the book be turned to read it rightside-up 21:00:01 hahaha 21:00:05 does it. 21:00:08 There's righting on the front 21:00:12 *writing 21:00:13 Jesus 21:00:16 ...John Lewis jobs let you give a birth year of 2021 21:00:22 Sgeo, no you define that by which way the head must be tilted 21:00:23 NihilistDandy, on the spine 21:00:27 right-side is tilt your head right 21:00:32 left-side is tilt your head left 21:01:18 Comments from the Seller: Used book. *****PLEASE NOTE: This item is shipping from an authorized seller in Europe as part of a service brought to you by EuroBooks. To learn more about this service see the BookQuest Help section.***** 21:01:29 Sgeo: No spine on which to write, really 21:01:45 It's a very slim volume 21:02:46 And the typesetting makes it look like TeX was involved 21:03:42 Does it have a copy of CC-BY-SA? 21:03:47 -!- kierra has left. 21:03:58 bye keruareia 21:04:54 Sgeo: Sort of. There's a blurb at the front of the book, but I don't see the symbols or the standard description 21:05:09 Just like "Welp, we didn't do this, really, but here it is." 21:05:38 * Sgeo is curious as to its exact text 21:05:59 Yeah obviously he's going to type out every word of it :P 21:06:12 I'll see if I can do some scans later 21:06:29 I just got my housing sorted out, so I'm sort of paperworking 21:07:33 Oh, no need to include full CC-BY-SA with it 21:07:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:09:11 i wonder if they're a business of more than 1 person 21:09:53 I wonder if they're a business of more than 0 people 21:15:41 http://i.imgur.com/YVcru.jpg 21:15:46 http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/stuffedlion.jpg 21:19:43 I don't know who you're taling about, though there could be a buisiness of 0 people. 21:20:06 Books LLC. 21:21:30 culturoritual 21:21:37 Is perhaps the ugliest word in English 21:21:55 frigidarium 21:22:05 That just sounds steampunky and awesome 21:22:10 It's latin. 21:22:20 And means a room with a cold swimming pool 21:22:20 Latin == steampunk 21:22:24 I know what it means 21:22:40 Steampunk: The worst??????????????????????? 21:22:40 it means 21:22:43 DACHGESCHOSS 21:22:45 But do you know what vomitarium means? 21:22:53 Yes and I wish I didn't 21:23:00 Then you're probably wrong 21:23:04 It was a joke. 21:23:05 Taneb: Yes. 21:23:11 I'm sickened by people leaving. 21:23:17 Exeunt omnes. 21:23:35 Speaking of, I have to run to the grocery store. 21:23:38 * NihilistDandy vomits. 21:23:47 oikia? 21:23:57 Taneb, it's vomitorium by the way. 21:24:24 Taneb: Greek doesn't count 21:24:50 But you all know latin! 21:25:02 ...carceres? 21:25:28 Both meanings please 21:25:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:25:51 crib, and jail 21:26:02 WRONG AND WRONG. 21:26:11 ALSO I DIDN'T KNOW THE FIRST ONE 21:26:26 I was thinking jails, and things that horses are in at the start of a race 21:26:28 carcero. to imprison 21:26:31 It's plural 21:26:41 From carcer 21:27:49 there is no proper functional plural of jail 21:28:05 you will never see anyone talk about jails (as in the building) 21:28:15 There are two jails near Durham. 21:28:17 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:28:19 -!- elliott_ has joined. 21:28:26 you're no-one 21:28:27 :p 21:28:33 :P 21:28:48 10proven by conjecture. 21:28:52 s/10// 21:29:37 `addquote you will never see anyone talk about jails (as in the building) There are two jails near Durham. you're no-one 21:29:39 594) you will never see anyone talk about jails (as in the building) There are two jails near Durham. you're no-one 21:32:50 Egotist 21:32:57 :P 21:33:06 cheater said the funny bits 21:33:22 it's all my fault 21:33:30 In fact, by recording this, I am being rather self-derogitary 21:35:45 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/functional-programming-books-llc/1023484757 21:36:21 that is one long title 21:36:22 *derogatory 21:39:52 oklopol! :D 21:40:34 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 21:44:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 21:45:44 " I don't know who you're taling about, though there could be a buisiness of 0 people." <<< an association can join another one, and we soon have multiple associations so you know what that means... 21:47:04 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:47:10 brb 21:47:12 augur! 21:48:17 sup pretty boy 21:49:36 well u know mathin it up 21:49:46 i started running and smoking 21:50:42 i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out 21:50:53 `addquote i started running and smoking i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out 21:50:55 594) i started running and smoking i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out 21:51:58 i worked for like 3 hours today, but since i solved all our problems i figured i'll just leave work and go fuck around 21:52:15 weird but 21:52:17 but anyway 21:53:24 i just wish cigarettes would taste more like chocolate 21:53:55 i mean don't get me wrong i love the taste, who wouldn't 21:54:14 the kebab place was closed and i'm so hungry 21:54:25 Put things on sticks. 21:54:25 it was raining outside just now but not anymore :( 21:54:28 And grill them 21:54:30 maybe i should play some guitar 21:54:46 well i have sticks and meatballs 21:54:55 but anyway stop using your crazy definition of kebab 21:55:51 i have some noodles so i figured, i'll have a smoke, then go make some noodz, then run a bit, then sleep a bit, then do math till i drop 21:56:12 wow it's 1am 21:56:17 why 21:56:18 hi oklopol 21:56:23 hi elliott_ :D 21:56:27 :šd\ 21:56:41 i'm sooooooo untired right now 21:56:44 is there a word for that 21:56:48 awake 21:56:50 no 21:57:04 tirirth? 21:57:07 Perky 21:57:08 Or that, yes. 21:57:15 Deewiant: Tirirth is better. 21:57:30 Sounds like it should be prefixed with Minars 21:58:28 prefixing minors is illegal 21:58:34 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 21:58:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.). 21:59:21 that virus is so cute :> 21:59:31 awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 21:59:36 fuck what's wrong with me 21:59:42 :DSa 21:59:42 -> 22:02:08 `addquote I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics. 22:02:09 595) I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics. 22:03:10 oklopol: mathin 22:03:13 yeah mathin 22:03:26 im doing math :o 22:03:44 oklopol, here, have some cute viruses: http://www.giantmicrobes.com/ 22:06:59 Hmmm, jury duty qualification forms ... 22:07:11 As I recall, it is my duty as a US citizen to avoid at all costs ever serving on a jury. 22:07:55 Gregor: unless you're aware of jury nullification 22:08:05 in which case its your duty to serve on it 22:08:23 but if you ever mention that you're aware of jury nullification, you will not be allowed to serve 22:09:02 lol 22:09:18 what was that plugin that did like 1st 2nd 3rd 22:09:23 but not correctly 22:09:37 @nth 22:09:38 Maybe you meant: ft thx 22:09:44 hm no. 22:10:48 augur: How is it legal to deny people to serve based on that 22:10:50 " im doing math :o" <<< mm math 22:10:55 (I'm sure it is, I'm just wondering how they do it) 22:11:21 elliott_: voir dire 22:11:37 augur: idgi 22:11:53 preflex is not here 22:11:55 prior to serving on a jury the defense attorney and the prosecutor get to interview potential jury members and kick out whoever they like 22:11:55 argh. 22:12:07 augur: Oh 22:12:23 augur: Surely defence attorneys would want people who know of jury nullification 22:12:31 yes, but prosecutors dont 22:12:48 this is also one reason why academics and other far left liberals generally dont get through 22:13:04 i imagine libertarians dont get through for certain sorts of cases too 22:13:10 at least if anyone is open about this sort of thing 22:13:45 augur: It seems ... rather unfair to let _one_ of them unilaterally remove people 22:13:54 With agreement I could understand 22:14:07 elliott_: welcome to the american court system! 22:14:08 Well I can't complain about libertarians getting removed :P 22:14:17 <-- SO EQUAL 22:14:22 ELLIOTT FAIR N BALANCED 22:14:48 elliott_: well, dont forget, libertarians would abolish all drug laws 22:15:04 Among other things 22:15:05 which is a problem for the majority of court cases in the us 22:15:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_challenge 22:15:50 I like how everyone supports Ron Paul based on what basically amounts to "Let's ban things at the _state_ level instead" 22:16:38 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 22:16:42 elliott_: :p 22:16:50 well, to some degree thats a great idea, right 22:16:55 except it needs to go further 22:17:30 however keep in mind, some of our states are as big as countries 22:17:33 many are, infact 22:17:43 Yeah, but I mean, anyone who seriously thinks Ron Paul wants to keep drugs legal or whatever is delusional 22:17:55 well ofcourse he probably doesnt 22:17:59 who knows 22:18:11 he says hes a libertarian, and they generally do, since they dont want the states to do that shit either 22:18:16 at least their platform is that 22:18:26 but theres probably a reason why hes not running in the libertarian party 22:18:40 Ban things on a personal level? That far enough? 22:18:56 The combination of anti-abortion conservative Christian + "STATE LEVEL STATE LEVEL" make me rather suspicious that he wants to turn the country into an Ayn Randian "paradise" 22:19:02 Taneb: yeah man 22:19:09 but no i mean 22:19:29 if i could make it illegal for myself to smoke, i might 22:19:40 oklopol: smoke hookah! 22:19:59 its way better than cigarettes 22:20:01 i mean, tastier 22:20:02 not healthier 22:20:12 do you mean have sex with hookers? 22:20:17 no 22:20:18 we don't really have hookers 22:20:26 you just have swedish women? 22:20:35 How is "anti-abortion conservative Christian" have anything to do with Randianism? 22:20:38 s/is/does/ 22:20:49 Sgeo: it doesnt 22:20:53 augur: what? 22:20:59 which is why elliott_ is skeptical of paul's libertarianism 22:21:07 oklopol: satw has a running joke about finns and swedes 22:21:23 i don't really read it, what is the joke 22:21:34 and how finnish guys love to get fucked up the ass by busty swedish women in strapons 22:21:58 Ooh. 22:22:04 well who wouldn't love that, point is you can't really find people who do that for money 22:22:07 I was thinking of Cyanide and Happiness 22:22:09 but are in a sad D/S situation where sister sweden forces brother finland to say he loves her 22:22:11 in swedish 22:22:19 because he knows swedish but is ashamed to 22:22:23 Last night I had some dream, I remember much of it. 22:22:23 zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 22:22:27 Denmark was funnier 22:22:30 oklopol: well thats what boys are for :) 22:22:36 Taneb: denmark is a total hotty 22:22:45 the bridges comic is great 22:23:12 [I turned off messages, didn't I?] 22:23:14 well if i wanted gay sex, i could easily get it without paying 22:23:24 I had a dream last night too 22:23:25 oklopol: :x 22:23:30 you should do so then! 22:23:34 We went into some museum. 22:23:34 zzo38: You can't turn off lambdabot messages 22:23:34 i'm sure i should 22:23:35 AFAIK 22:23:36 and tape it, cause, you know 22:23:51 for science 22:24:04 no just for me 22:24:11 for science and augur 22:24:37 * Sgeo wants a translation for SATW's "Not English"" 22:24:40 my sisters were doing some recycling education thing and I had to help, and in one part there were these inflatable plastic cans, some of them fully inflated, some partially so and crumpled, some of them fully deflated and straightened nicely. Anyway, we had to put them in this bin, but for some reason I really wanted to eat them, and I ended up picking them up with my mouth and chewing on some of them a bit 22:25:36 makes sense 22:25:40 There was many things in this museum, including some monsters and stuff. Finally one floor there is an office, it has one foreign person and one monster each working on a computer in a small office (too small for anyone to work). Fianlly they said they are foreigner and said some things which are similar to stuff I myself said a long time ago. 22:26:23 What. Google. What. Why did you just buy Motorola. What. 22:26:39 So... Google owns my phone? 22:26:47 monqy: .. 22:26:50 you're a bit autistic 22:26:53 Oh, looks like they bought it for patents. 22:26:57 After they said a bunch of stuff, I thought the museum administration (not anyone currently in view) was going to hit me for it, so I try to run away. I found the public washrooms hallway. There are three branches: the men washroom, the woman washroom, and the third hallway which is probably some maintenance hallway. 22:27:00 elliott_: google bought motorola huh 22:27:07 intends to buy 22:27:10 ahh 22:27:12 has to be approved 22:27:14 monqy is "a bit autistic"? 22:27:15 augur: dream me has problems 22:27:15 well its for android ofcourse 22:27:20 Oh 22:27:23 dream monqy is just insane, not autistic 22:27:25 monqy: oh it was a dreak? 22:27:32 yes it was a dream 22:27:38 oh i see 22:27:45 that'd just be pica not autism 22:27:51 i think............. 22:27:52 there was a bit of text between the statement "i had a dream" 22:27:56 and "im autistic" 22:28:30 i put things in my mouth all the time 22:28:35 only autistic people have dreams PASS IT ON.... 22:28:44 not saying i'm not a bit autistic 22:29:09 The men's washroom hallway had two public washrooms, each Egyptian themed and each had many sinks, toilet stalls, etc. The first one was no good, so afterward the museum was closed and it was dark but I managed to find the other one anyways and enter. At the entrance was some computers saying to enter things on them. I only partially entered data on the first and then found the toilet. 22:29:43 oklopol: do you now... 22:29:56 know or now? 22:29:59 now 22:30:00 oh 22:30:08 about the mouth thing 22:30:16 :D 22:30:35 sorry i was so fascinated about zzo38's story i forgot what i said 22:30:52 There was a sign saying something like, line them up so that the sign on the wall and the door are parallel. I managed to do so. After exit, I found a secret door was now open. I have found one of the two secret islands for this museum. It was daytime now and one of the three people who I went to the museum with met me there even though they themself could not find this secret island! 22:30:55 well yeah i stick stuff there all the time 22:31:11 zzo38: i think ive been to this club 22:31:25 when you got into the bathroom, did the stalls have holes in the walls? 22:31:33 augur: No. 22:31:37 oh 22:31:45 Anyways it is a dream not a real bathroom 22:31:49 your dream club sucks then 22:32:14 -!- PatashuWarg has joined. 22:32:17 Actually, I don't quite remember. Maybe one of the stalls does have a hole. 22:32:44 oh the glory 22:32:50 (Not the one I was in, unless it was the one covered by the sign) 22:34:11 augur: so do you think you've been to a club more times than a club has been to you? 22:34:26 oklopol: probably! 22:34:32 ive been to a club once in my life, i think 22:35:04 you did get that the club is a penis right? 22:35:18 Rating. How much do you think the stuff I described makes any sense to you? 22:35:34 it was pretty sensible 22:35:36 who calls a cock a club 22:35:39 thats absurd 22:35:42 thatd be horrible 22:35:56 it'd be a big knob on the end that gets narrow toward the base 22:35:59 augur: someone who needs to find a word that means both a dick and a club 22:36:01 horrible cock 22:36:19 oklopol: In what language? 22:36:24 zzo38: english 22:36:34 Is there such words in English? 22:36:39 see i was making a gay joke because augur is a *whispers* homo 22:36:44 In old English there was 22:36:45 oklopol: nightstick 22:36:52 huh 22:36:59 oklopol: nightstick doesnt mean club tho 22:37:02 not as in dance club 22:37:10 thats what hes looking for 22:37:13 oh was kind of wondering 22:37:16 -!- Monster has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org). 22:37:18 discoteque ~ penis 22:37:40 i think club is the best possible choice 22:37:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:38:09 you're just sour because you didn't get it. get it, "get it"? no you don't. 22:38:09 its horrible nonetheless 22:38:21 :( 22:38:23 meany 22:38:25 i am 22:38:40 i won't even let you join my club 22:38:47 hi oklopol 22:38:51 hi oerjan 22:39:13 wanna hear about limit sets 22:39:17 j/k 22:39:31 oklopol: limits of diagrams are better! 22:39:36 I could have gone through the maintenance hallway but I decided to go to the toilet instead, I could hide in the stall where the people doing maintenance will not see 22:39:43 i'm not smart enough for category theory 22:39:55 category theory is like magic :( 22:39:58 yes 22:40:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:40:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:40:17 i only recently understood why a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors 22:40:19 oklopol: I don't know a lot either but I did find something in Wikibooks, about relating Haskell to category theory. You can try to read that. 22:40:33 -!- Vorpal has joined. 22:40:39 Such document did help a bit 22:40:43 To me 22:40:49 zzo38: no you really didnt. most of the wikibook is like the first five pages of a CT book :\ 22:41:21 theres so much to fundamental CT that isnt even remotely covered in the wikibook 22:41:32 well duh 22:41:41 it's a wikibook 22:41:42 its actually a pain in the ass because some of it probably could be covered really easily 22:41:52 yeah if you're smart 22:41:53 all wikibooks suck 22:42:02 natural transformations and adjunctions, for instance 22:42:04 Is is this one: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Category_theory Yes it is true there is things not covered there but it says in the summary that they omitted some things 22:42:06 if you're dum like me you have to just give up 22:42:15 the haskell one is... ok, but lyah/rwt are better 22:42:25 look at that! 22:42:30 zzo38, here, have a perfectly good introduction to category theory: 22:42:30 it goes straight from functors to monads! 22:42:32 thats crazy! 22:42:35 == INTRODUCTION == 22:42:41 I omitted some things. 22:42:42 you need natural transformations before monads 22:42:46 == END == 22:42:49 augur: That's not an introduction to category theory 22:42:52 That's a chapter in the Haskell book 22:42:52 and then categories of functors 22:42:58 elliott_: no, true, but still 22:43:04 augur: So it'll be trying to cover only that CT that Haskell uses 22:43:06 it'd be useful to understand the stuff! 22:43:09 As the first sentence says 22:43:16 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Category_Theory is the actual wikibook on CT 22:43:19 It looks rather hilariously incomplete 22:43:35 augur: Maybe you should embrace the nature of wikibookss and add those chapters? 22:43:35 http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/products/flu.html 22:43:37 Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 22:43:43 elliott_: haskell uses the relevant natural transformations you know 22:43:52 Taneb: "This sucks!" "IT'S A WIKI/OPEN SOURCE, DO IT YOURSELF" 22:43:54 or atleast can define one of them easily 22:43:59 "products" 22:44:05 return = eta, join = mu 22:44:07 Good advice if the person you're talking to is both an expert in everything, and has infinite time 22:44:08 ohh 22:44:08 And also motivation 22:44:13 Taneb: ive considered it 22:44:23 Phantom_Hoover: Awwwwwwww 22:44:29 but i dont know enough about adjunctions to really contribute 22:44:31 i love it :DSSA 22:44:40 but the natural transformation stuff perhaps! 22:46:25 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Triplet why does this exist 22:46:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:46:30 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 22:46:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:46:37 monqy: because the world is imperfect 22:46:48 Because there are idiots 22:46:48 why would anyone do that 22:46:48 augur: So it'll be trying to cover only that CT that Haskell uses <-- but you need natural transformations to properly understand parametricity. i think. 22:47:17 i think it's a great idea 22:47:17 oerjan: parametric polymorphism is basically natural transformations 22:47:18 afaict 22:47:30 augur: that is not what parametricity is. 22:47:51 surely it's natural transformations in some category 22:48:08 elliott_: depends on what you mean by parametricity 22:48:39 augur: "Parametricity" in the context of Haskell means exactly one thing 22:48:48 Phantom_Hoover: Actually the first year I went to anime convention they had one of the products from that company, I think the one representing AIDS, and they asked to take the photograph. Another thing is if you do science in your class related to such microbes you can put these things in your classroom too for decoration or something 22:48:52 -!- evincar has joined. 22:48:59 elliott_: oh? 22:49:07 augur: http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=parametricity 22:49:25 yes im well aware, elliott_ 22:49:35 your statements implied otherwise 22:49:48 my statements are consistent with what you linked to :) 22:50:03 it's not what you said, it's how you said it 22:50:30 lol 22:50:40 augur: Parametric polymorphism is not the same thing. 22:50:43 if a program spits out Hamlet, it's amazing, whether it has intelligence or not is irrelevant 22:50:47 [ 1646.420270] [fglrx:firegl_cmmqs_BIOSControl] *ERROR* CMMQS BIOS Control: CMMQS handle is not valid. 22:50:47 [ 1646.420273] [fglrx:firegl_bios_control] *ERROR* CMMQS BIOS Control is failed: firegl_bios_control 22:50:48 i'm too tired to nood but too hungry to sleap :( 22:50:48 yeah cat is amazing :P 22:50:50 fuck catalyst 22:50:52 elliott_: its intimately related 22:50:56 I bet a reboot will fix it 22:50:58 Parametricity is a result _about_ parametric polymorphism. 22:51:05 sure 22:51:11 But what you said was untrue. 22:51:13 but I can't reboot atm. Since I'm dding a huge thing 22:51:15 oerjan: you've been beaten by ages 22:51:18 what i said was completely true. 22:51:22 :( 22:51:23 look at my cat, my cat is amazing 22:51:44 oklopol: shhh, don't encourage Gr*gor 22:51:48 Gregor 22:51:55 * oerjan swats elliott_ -----### 22:52:00 i don't get it 22:52:01 oklopol, did you see the cute viruses. 22:52:05 who's this Gregor 22:52:10 oklopol: Give it a lick! Mmm, it tastes just like raisins! 22:52:11 Phantom_Hoover: i saw and i APPROVED 22:52:12 He's a man who has a cat. 22:52:28 oklopol: some guy with a kitty 22:52:34 :( 22:52:34 nh 22:52:57 but i love licking kittens 22:52:59 Gregor, not chicken? 22:53:06 http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/products/commoncold.html 22:53:09 Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 22:53:20 Phantom_Hoover: The animation of that cold is disturbing. 22:53:23 http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/files/images/productdetails/sniffles-box.jpg 22:53:31 The vinyl is scary but the plushes are cute. 22:53:34 the fluffy thing is sooooo awww :) 22:53:41 oklopol: That's the vinyl......... 22:53:44 you think humans can perform a perfect turing test given a novel-sized output? 22:53:44 It is not fluffy.......... 22:54:37 http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/files/images/productdetails/sniffles-box.jpg is not symmetric 22:54:54 no. but "by chance" will still make almost all of the novel look like gibberish. 22:54:57 it is not cute, but that i can handle 22:55:43 oh wait 22:55:47 So, a poll. 22:55:49 http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/files/images/productdetails/sniffles-box.jpg 22:55:49 the fluffy thing is sooooo awww :) 22:55:50 not same person 22:56:00 If I might briefly detract from this enlightened conversation. 22:56:05 yeah that was not a response to monqy 22:56:14 what monqy linked was not symmetric 22:56:15 oerjan: fungot is more coherent than a letter-based dissociated press is more coherent than random letters is more coherent than random bytes. 22:56:15 elliott_: it's the same as equal? 22:56:20 oerjan: ??? is more coherent than fungot is more ... 22:56:20 elliott_: ( let's hope he doesn't get prostate fnord 22:56:23 oerjan: ??? is more coherent than ??? is more coherent than fungot is more ... 22:56:24 elliott_: cast out into the land of donny and marie as promised in tv guide! 22:56:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:56:31 * oerjan lets the rest of the logs be 22:57:19 food -> 22:57:23 ^style 22:57:23 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:57:33 http://www.giantmicrobes.com/uk/products/diarrhea.html awwwwww :> 22:57:38 So I'm making a little language for embedding. Currently the type system is limited to boolean, integer, float, string, object (list/dict), and lambda. Anything I should add or remove? 22:57:50 oklopol: now that's one thing I won't be buying 22:58:00 evincar: see my logs for responses to you wrt embedded languages (you made incorrect statements) 22:58:05 or i'll just paste i guess 22:58:25 the best part is it looks like poop 22:58:29 18:40:26: 04:32:22: When it comes to games especially, your only choices for good pre-existing scripting languages are Lua and Python. 22:58:30 18:40:36: Squirrel is used extensively in the game industry and is designed for the purpose 22:58:31 oh that's all i said 22:58:35 it's IRONIC 22:58:42 but yeah there are tons more languages suitable for embedding than that 22:58:50 ironic poop. 22:58:51 and at least one expressly designed to meet the pseudo-real-time constraints of games 22:58:57 and widely used for the purpose 22:59:01 I'll give you Squirrel. 22:59:16 I can see that the description of category theory says you can use unit,fmap,join or you can do return,(>>=) and you can convert from one way to the other way. 22:59:16 That one just slipped my mind. 22:59:17 "It is used extensively by Code::Blocks for scripting and was also used in Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King[2] It is also used in Left 4 Dead 2 and Portal 2 for scripted events[3]." 22:59:36 it has tail recursion and generators and coroutines... so it's better than python already 22:59:48 ewww scripted events 23:00:02 I'm just trying to make something minimal and useful. 23:00:05 i'd rather have diarrhea 23:00:13 evincar: make a scheme then 23:00:28 Nah, it's been done. 23:00:42 what 23:00:49 yeah it was on the news 23:00:55 make a brainfuck 23:00:55 some kiddo implemented scheme 23:01:00 Prototypal OO is at least a reasonable balance. 23:01:20 For specifically MegaZeux, I use Robotic and Forth. For other game systems you need something different though 23:01:20 if by reasonable balance you mean shit then sure 23:01:24 I mean, the thing'll have function composition &c, and is homoiconic. 23:01:37 So you could add the fancy features that make Lisps so attractive. 23:01:58 you could add prototypical OO to scheme 23:01:59 in about 23:02:00 fifty lines 23:02:03 so i don't se ehow that' srelevant 23:02:06 Less, I daresay. 23:02:14 and also scheme doesn't have function composition 23:02:17 in its stdlib 23:02:34 So that's an advantage I'll have. 23:02:41 im dead already 23:02:57 have a nice eternal sleep 23:03:07 Essentially I just want something simple and useful that's trivial to integrate with other systems. 23:03:08 we'll keep on struggling a bit longer 23:03:14 I don't really care about a beautiful design. 23:03:19 So that's an advantage I'll have. 23:03:22 WOW YOU HAVE FUNCTION COMPOSITION 23:03:29 im dropping everything let me know when your language is ready 23:03:36 you could shave a whole two lines off my scheme programs 23:03:46 It's not supposed to be impressive. It's supposed to be practical. 23:03:49 but can i shave my balls with that language? 23:04:26 You can shave your balls in any language. 23:04:31 Assuming you shout while you do it. 23:04:32 I find that what is useful for integrate with other systems depends on the other system that you are dealing with. 23:04:42 GET THE FUCK OFF MY BALLS YOU PIECES OF SHIT 23:04:59 Your hair is shit? That's unfortunate. 23:05:00 zzo38: you mean when shaving your balls? 23:05:13 evincar: so what will your language be like will it be any good will i not hate it and want to die because of it 23:05:25 oklopol: No. 23:05:27 most important questions 23:05:52 zombie monkey 23:06:00 monqy, stop it that's my shtick. 23:06:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:33 okay i'm gonna go do important stuff, see you later friends :>>>>>>> 23:07:35 monqy: Basically Self but cleaner and smaller. Everything's done with message-passing, which can be asynchronous or stepped if you like. I don't think it'll be warty enough to hate, but you might want to die if it becomes popular. 23:07:51 ok 23:07:52 Because it probably won't seem to deserve it. 23:09:00 i never bothered learning self is there anything special about it 23:09:20 Not particularly. It's essentially a minimal dialect of Smalltalk. 23:09:32 You have things, you pass messages to them, they yield results. 23:09:40 self is big? 23:09:42 coulda fooled me 23:09:49 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:09:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 23:09:49 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:10:08 elliott_: I do mean I'm going for minimalism. 23:10:21 You shouldn't rely too much on a scripting language, after all. 23:10:22 evincar: and what's this composition thing about which you talked 23:10:25 yep, that is indeed an incoherent reply 23:11:33 monqy: You can compose functions however you like using partial application. 23:11:40 Well, goodnight 23:12:00 what does this mean 23:13:18 Well, trivially: add = { x, y => (x + y) }; succ = add 1; 23:14:00 partial application is not composition 23:14:01 hth hand 23:14:32 Right, when you apply a lambda to another lambda, you get a composed function. 23:14:42 what 23:15:11 you do know what function composition is, right? 23:15:13 So, I dunno, square = { x => (x * x) }; add_squares = add square square; 23:15:29 is that a "no"? 23:15:42 Yes, I do know what function composition is. 23:16:30 you seem to be having trouble with it 23:16:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:16:39 Hardly. 23:16:45 Function composition is the . command in Haskell and the + command in MSE 23:17:53 Right, so [add square square] x y == [add [square x] [square y]]. 23:18:05 sorry i have to leave now 23:18:07 good bye 23:18:50 In JavaScript: compose=function(f,g)(function(x)(f(g(x)))); 23:19:06 evincar: so functions can't be higher-order now 23:19:07 awesome 23:19:35 i compose all my songs by partial application of my brain 23:19:39 elliott_: Why wouldn't they be able to be? 23:20:48 full application of my brain is just overkill for that! 23:20:53 i mean come on look at this brain 23:21:25 well you can't but i'm NOT opening my skull with a matknife 23:23:14 evincar: Is that proper function composition? It does not seem like that to me 23:23:43 oklopol: Use X-ray vision to see? How well does that answer the question? 23:23:47 It's just J-style forks 23:23:50 Which are absolutely not the same thing 23:23:52 Meh, I might have missed some brackets, but the principle works. 23:24:20 zzo38: n/a unfortunately :\ 23:24:43 well in principle, EVERYTHING is possible, even telepathy. 23:24:50 well not telepathy 23:25:28 brain radio implant 23:26:14 Telepathy is also one of the disciplines of psionics in D&D 3.5edition, but there are others too. (The dipciplines are psionics make a similar system to the schools of magic) 23:26:22 elliott_: Could you give me an example of something you think wouldn't work with my setup? 23:26:33 You're terribly fun to argue with. 23:27:07 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:27:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 23:27:17 evnincar: Do you know JavaScript or Haskell? 23:27:39 zzo38: JavaScript well, Haskell reasonably well. 23:28:41 I explained function composition in JavaScript so how would you do like that in your system? 23:29:50 composition is when you have like a thing and like another thing and then you like go YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SLUT JOIN TOGETHER IN THE NAME OF SATAN 23:30:06 i think i should sleep at some point 23:30:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:30:13 compose = { f, g => [f g] }; if you don't want to restrict the number of arguments. 23:30:22 the iwc mythbusters show is _so_ much better than the real one. 23:30:58 oklopol: functional programming WITH SATAN 23:32:07 -!- pumpkin has joined. 23:32:10 You could go for a literal translation of the JavaScript: compose = { f, g => { x => f [g x] } } 23:32:24 * oerjan may be biased by not actually watching the real one, or tv 23:33:31 evincar: i am also doubtful about higher-order functions. 23:33:52 yeah, i mean do they really make sense? 23:33:55 oklopol: If that's not the best explanation of composition I've heard all week, I don't know what is 23:34:11 Haskell needs moar SATAN 23:34:31 I mean, I'd be glad if someone exposed a glaring inconsistency in all this. 23:34:36 Because then I could fix it. 23:34:40 But I don't think one's there. 23:35:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:35:37 o great satan bring these two pieces of slut together in hole matrimony of arguments piping through both of them sequentially 23:35:50 evincar: how do i pass the function f to a function g 23:36:03 [g f] 23:36:13 oklopol: no, that takes an argument x and evaluates [g [f x]] 23:36:17 see: 23:36:18 23:30:13: compose = { f, g => [f g] }; if you don't want to restrict the number of arguments. 23:36:18 Is Javascript an esolang now? 23:36:29 elliott_: that too 23:36:40 natural hellomorphisms 23:36:43 why does it have to mean only one thing? 23:36:56 wait, *unnatural 23:37:07 what would be the point of evincar's language if it meant only one thing 23:38:22 elliott_: I don't see a difference between a function taking a function as an argument, and some composition of those functions. 23:38:30 Lymee: Vorpal: What does it mean if there's a Goblin Master Thief not on the u list 23:38:37 evincar: But they are not the same thing 23:38:44 Other than whether you're thinking of eager or lazy evaluation. 23:38:48 In which case it's always lazy. 23:38:51 evincar: well let's say you want to implement haskell's foldr. how would you call it? 23:38:51 evincar: then you are wrong. 23:38:54 When arguments are supplied, the function is evaluated. 23:39:13 I wonder if you could make an esolang based on engrish, apparently I'm tired enough that this idea seems viable 23:39:31 oerjan: I wish DrHylo still worked :/ 23:39:50 wait, what is DrHylo :( 23:40:08 http://wiki.di.uminho.pt/twiki/bin/view/Personal/Alcino/DrHylo 23:40:18 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/DrHylo 23:40:29 `addquote elliott_: I don't see a difference between a function taking a function as an argument, and some composition of those functions. 23:40:31 596) elliott_: I don't see a difference between a function taking a function as an argument, and some composition of those functions. 23:41:44 so say we have this haskell function 23:41:46 g f = f 0 + f 9 23:41:56 since in your language, [g f] is the equivalent of the Haskell \x -> g (f x) 23:41:58 how would one construct g here 23:42:11 NihilistDandy: ok i completely guessed wrong what that would be :P 23:42:21 Lymee: Vorpal: What's it mean if I have a goblin master thief not on the u list 23:42:22 oerjan: What was your guess? 23:42:42 something like a haskell/category theory style for fungot :P 23:42:43 oerjan: i'll run it too see the time table yet. nothing that i know what currying is 23:43:02 oerjan: Now that would be awesome. NEW PROJECT 23:43:13 I noticed now that some of the things in my Haskell program for Constantinople uses what is also fmap for monads although I used >>= instead 23:43:19 fungot, tell me about DrHylo 23:43:20 NihilistDandy: so this is what a computer does? i'm not that good a category. 23:43:27 Perfect. 23:43:29 zzo38: you may wish to use the Applicative notation 23:43:32 Lymee: Vorpal: What's it mean if I have a goblin master thief not on the u list <-- that he isn't on the u list? 23:43:50 zzo38: f <$> a <*> b <*> c === f `fmap` a `ap` b `ap` c (when talking about monads) 23:43:53 zzo38: basically, 23:44:02 elliott_: foldr = { f z; args => if (args empty) { z } else { f [first args] [foldr f z [rest args]] } }; 23:44:04 (,,) <$> getLine <*> getLineDifferently 23:44:05 is like 23:44:07 (identical to) 23:44:09 If I have: parse_tail = string "tail" >> expressionParser >>= return . (AppE (VarE 'p_tail)); 23:44:11 Of course it's not as pretty as Haskell because there's no pattern matching. 23:44:14 do x <- getLine; y <- getLineDifferently; return (x,y) 23:44:14 erm 23:44:15 (,) not (,,) 23:44:26 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 23:44:29 evincar: So make pattern matching happen. Hack it together 23:44:44 23:44:02: elliott_: foldr = { f z; args => if (args empty) { z } else { f [first args] [foldr f z [rest args]] } }; 23:44:49 evincar: please answer my question, thanks. 23:44:56 so say we have this haskell function 23:44:56 g f = f 0 + f 9 23:44:56 since in your language, [g f] is the equivalent of the Haskell \x -> g (f x) 23:44:56 how would one construct g here 23:45:03 such that g is called as [g f] 23:45:10 Is it like: parse_tail = string "tail" >> fmap (AppE (VarE 'p_tail)) expressionParser if fmap f m = m >>= return . f 23:45:41 zzo38: yes. btw, (>>) is also available for Applicatives, as (*>). 23:45:49 Oh. g = { f => ([f 0] + [f 9]) }. 23:45:53 zzo38: it also has the useful (<*) -- (a <* b) is like do{x <- a; b; return x} 23:45:56 Why is that a problem? 23:45:59 see Control.Applicative documentation 23:46:11 evincar: because [g f] is the same as \x -> (g f) x 23:46:15 it's a composition 23:46:19 you just said this before 23:46:24 Not in that way. 23:46:24 23:36:18: 23:30:13: compose = { f, g => [f g] }; if you don't want to restrict the number of arguments. 23:46:34 so [compose g f] actually returns an integer i guess 23:46:36 COOOOOOooOOOOOOOoooooOOOooooool 23:46:37 well 23:46:40 assuming f returns an integer 23:46:44 which it does because i said so 23:46:57 w/e this is stupid i'm going to go play df 23:47:08 he will so get it if you try 5 minutes longer 23:47:09 Suit yourself. 23:47:17 oklopol: exactly the conclusion i made 23:47:24 and oerjan is here to handle those five minutes 23:47:25 You're just being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm assuming. 23:48:20 probably there isn't a difference between composition and application and we're just all delusional 23:48:33 i mean who knows 23:48:41 is there a known counterexample where they are different? 23:48:43 i think not 23:49:00 So, given g = { f => ([f 0] + [f 9]) }, [g succ] is the same as ([succ 0] + [succ 9]). 23:49:12 23:47:25: You're just being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm assuming. 23:49:15 That's all I've been trying to say. 23:49:16 or maybe you're being an idiot 23:49:19 and i've decided I have better things to do 23:49:30 rather than provide counterexamples (which I have) of the fact that TWO INCREDIBLY COMMON BASIC CS CONCEPTS DIFFER 23:49:38 Are UNIX pipes like >>= or is it more like >=> 23:50:07 :( I don't recognize >=>\ 23:50:10 More like >>=, no? 23:50:20 Well, it depends. 23:50:21 @type >=> 23:50:22 parse error on input `>=>' 23:50:24 yeah, more like >>= 23:50:25 @type (>=>) 23:50:26 forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c 23:50:30 derp 23:50:41 definitely 23:50:49 because the "a" and "b" here are basically... the command-line arguments 23:50:53 i mean 23:50:58 that's the only reasonable sense you could give to them 23:51:03 in the context of >=> 23:51:08 @hoogle (>=>) 23:51:09 Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c 23:51:09 and unix pipes don't pass as arg- yeah, this is stupid 23:51:46 And how would it be in >==>>>=>===>>=>>====>>>>>==>=>>> 23:51:54 http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/monadic-shell.html 23:52:59 The thing I notice is that (>=>) is directly associative 23:54:15 zzo38: well, yes 23:55:04 there's a cleaner form of the monad laws in terms of (>=>) too IIRC 23:55:10 hmm wait 23:55:21 is it as simple as "Kleisli = category" 23:55:28 (fsvery loosevo =) 23:57:48 Okay, easy (if imperfect) way to explain it. In Haskell, you can write k = f $ g $ h $ value instead of k = f . g . h $ value. My language simply has uniform syntax for it. 23:58:46 Yes the monad laws in terms of (>=>) is that (>=>) is associative. And, I suppose, that return is the identity element. Maybe there are others too. Is this correct? Maybe I made some mistake I don't know for sure 23:59:06 Barring the fact that $ doesn't, strictly speaking, do anything. 23:59:08 zzo38: That's what the laws of the Category typeclass are, too :P 23:59:59 elliott_: Category typeclass? What does that mean?