< 1314230607 875851 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1314230649 576257 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314230778 285961 :chickenzilla!~zack@olol.eu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314231703 406712 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1314232023 621569 :mtve-!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314232054 178520 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314232280 645979 :mtve-!~mtve@65.98.99.53 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1314232377 122491 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314232570 720180 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314232578 742949 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is the sky yellow < 1314232590 659189 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Indiana: THAT IS NOT THE CORRECT COLOR FOR THE SKY < 1314232627 790907 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who do you think you are, saying what colour the sky ought to be? < 1314232633 401144 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it wants to be yellow. < 1314232706 615028 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a sky doctor....and that is not what skys want.... < 1314232724 707732 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think a sky doctor would know how to spell "skies" ... < 1314232914 310974 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think a doctor would know how to spell "I'm", and what an ellipse looks like. < 1314232937 228008 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, clearly the sky is going through a rebellious stage. < 1314233087 297922 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that much is clear. < 1314233091 32247 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with the lightening. < 1314233093 701361 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yellow. < 1314233468 729739 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, this is a nasty thunderstorm ... < 1314233470 659059 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1314233559 920922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: its sky barf < 1314233792 181938 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebel barf < 1314233820 893037 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :barf rebel < 1314233830 818389 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the sky) < 1314234089 605831 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1314234516 872853 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1314234517 317881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm that would be cool forleaden to have < 1314234639 742028 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaden? < 1314234653 843169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1314234800 234476 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaden. < 1314234851 666781 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Splain. < 1314234867 445135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i was thinking that like the haskell repl could be a fancy repl??? by which i mean: you know how like ghci sees if it's an io action and failing that does "print it" < 1314234884 853721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this would be the same but it would try "display it" before print it and you'd have like < 1314234887 615928 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i know that < 1314234898 785094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Display a where ??? < 1314234899 522861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1314234901 619658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1314234910 709390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a list could show the first like N elements that'll fit onto a screen < 1314234917 138167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have a ... that you can click to show more at the end?? < 1314234920 355294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other nice... things like that... < 1314234940 234090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could maybe middle-click subexpressions to make them go into the prompt?? i don;t know < 1314234942 618023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldb e ... cool < 1314234967 959252 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hougle integration...might be nice < 1314234999 349196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: yes but like.......... < 1314235008 269484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: if you had a library with colours < 1314235013 46198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could construct a colour < 1314235020 866810 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'd show a little square of that colour next to how it would normally be shown?? < 1314235022 959184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be cool?? < 1314235048 559455 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you < 1314235048 941450 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dou < 1314235049 286074 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1314235067 950529 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance Display RGB where displayWidget (RGB r g b) = ...some gui stuffe..... < 1314235093 352292 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and whenever peoiple make colourse they will write an instance for Leadne???? < 1314235113 10570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no............. you would have to put itin your ghcirc or something?? < 1314235115 734919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1314235116 914372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that < 1314235120 399559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make for a lot of coole things...... < 1314235133 873788 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1314235169 652927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: im dont know it was just an idea..... (at first i was thinking that I should play around with a standalone REPL thing to do that, and then i thought "oops but then leadesn would seem inferior i should put it into leaden") < 1314235210 300169 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest problem I see is people not bothering to make these instances < 1314235227 127589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: well you could still benefit from like the instances for lists? < 1314235228 960606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1314235232 134190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :typing in an infinite list < 1314235235 780687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then yuour emacs buffer exploes < 1314235236 846140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not good < 1314235239 258691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :typing in infinite list < 1314235242 649974 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting a bunch of elements < 1314235244 566054 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it ending at "..." < 1314235245 235604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1314235258 359367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it could like do pretty-printing stuff too? so that if elements were long they'd go on their own line < 1314235266 173245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and being able to manipulate sub-expressions separately is very good... < 1314235271 603973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could like turn anything too deeply-nested into a ... < 1314235314 844272 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i guess you could make it not happen if you explicitly used show??? < 1314235332 978154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well using "print" would be the explicietie thing.... < 1314235340 163795 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1314235348 338032 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess print would work too.... < 1314235361 894545 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't print just putStrLn . show or something like that < 1314235385 274214 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes...... < 1314235389 810618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wit h show it would have "" < 1314235390 450963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also < 1314235391 877520 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the ""s inside < 1314235393 129900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be \" < 1314235397 72102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1314235397 844438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1314235407 64653 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh rihgt < 1314236686 82470 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wut. < 1314236693 25347 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the IBM PC-AT, you could mask the NMI. < 1314236705 635344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1314236739 820597 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could write to a controller chip on the motherboard, which would prevent the NMI from reaching the CPU. < 1314236757 917764 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than merely telling the CPU to ignore the interrupt. < 1314237251 533682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thanks for the info. I did not mean to imply anything negative about your knowledge. In fact, I think my post makes you look better than your own previous post do (because your comments about web2py are naive)." < 1314237269 418074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i have upse t him monqy < 1314237628 90499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314237659 737533 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1314237899 350344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle f a -> f b -> f (a,b) < 1314237899 842421 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)] < 1314237899 915009 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)] < 1314237899 987288 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH strictType :: Q Strict -> TypeQ -> StrictTypeQ < 1314237903 394475 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :: ( < 1314237906 38444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hepl < 1314237928 331034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know, I know, liftAtwo (,)) < 1314237938 776115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just trying to generalise < 1314237942 70280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : reactimate $ const mainQuit <$> eWindowClosed < 1314237943 462697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : reactimate $ const mainQuit <$> eCtrlC < 1314237945 341724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be less ugl??? < 1314237959 453194 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :generalise?? speaking of which sometime i should learn syb maybe < 1314237969 900923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :union :: Event f a -> Event f a -> Event f aSource < 1314237970 154594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Merge two event streams of the same type. In case of simultaneous occurrences, the left argument comes first. Think of it as < 1314237971 525077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there we go... < 1314237982 85628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh thats same element type though hmm < 1314237985 969446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: that was not syb......... < 1314237998 911555 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know.. < 1314238004 31377 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would syb help < 1314238053 26281 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314238126 685156 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what's so not general enough about applicative functors though??? hlep???? < 1314238226 712016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats < 1314238228 596050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not what aht i ameant < 1314238228 928195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ignore < 1314238229 561055 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `ignore' < 1314238232 392935 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle void < 1314238232 499246 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foreign.Marshal.Error void :: IO a -> IO () < 1314238233 559319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle ignore < 1314238233 735208 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Regex.Posix.ByteString compIgnoreCase :: CompOption < 1314238233 808979 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Regex.Posix.Sequence compIgnoreCase :: CompOption < 1314238233 881176 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Regex.Posix.String compIgnoreCase :: CompOption < 1314238237 370449 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:E < 1314238240 992684 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ( *) b. (Functor f) => a -> f b -> f a < 1314238272 771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ($>) < 1314238272 610546 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `$>' < 1314238308 380343 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that be fmap (flip const) or what < 1314238544 938510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fmap (flip const) < 1314238545 531184 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b a (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> f (b -> b) < 1314238559 849898 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1314238574 358154 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant uh < 1314238578 138959 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what i was thinking < 1314238601 871106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fmap . const < 1314238602 522249 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => b -> f a -> f b < 1314238618 876608 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1314238633 485327 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1314238667 125214 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fmap . flip const), perhaps < 1314238680 83798 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's dumb < 1314238711 701164 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(flip (<$))?? I can't think of anything better < 1314238779 769694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1314238790 501446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \f a -> fmap (const a) f < 1314238790 576750 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip (fmap . const) < 1314238797 381256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1314239420 662237 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap (const x) has a name < 1314239439 644583 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're using it < 1314239630 839151 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1314241136 680026 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hi! For some reason we can't display an ad here, probably because of an ad blocker. If this ad is not displayed our design gets screwed up. We have full respect if you want to run an ad blocker but we would appreciate if you add us to your white list or consider donating via Flattr or Paypal." < 1314241145 519993 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm betting that donating will not remove this annoying banner :P < 1314241303 922062 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It' < 1314241315 945029 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really hard to feel sympathy for such a thing. < 1314241342 351028 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ads are a blight < 1314241473 953561 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, but, "The free web is dependent on ads to continue to be free."! < 1314241522 123623 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes, our economic system sucks ass. < 1314241632 630812 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use protocols and/or filetypes that do not have ads, too < 1314241641 798099 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: COMMUNIST < 1314241644 235215 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1314241654 550322 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which also helps in other ways depending on what you are doing with these files < 1314241747 803965 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :More "anti-'free market'". < 1314241861 880656 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is why, I should also invent SSH banking protocol, use this protocol to do banking transactions by computer by internet, including transfer money, copy bank statement, etc, in standardized way. Designed such that you can do it with a computer program that sends the commands for you simply, and can also be done simply by entering the commands manually, too. < 1314242236 391311 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see that a lot of the functions of Data.Set do require instance of Ord, however not all of them do. < 1314242283 807998 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said that is why there is no monad definition for sets. < 1314242496 51868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sets don't work without Ord, the fact that some functions don't have the cosntraint is just a mistake because it's not technically enforced < 1314242500 177943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But all the algorithms require it < 1314242689 906789 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see the description at the top about the algorithms. < 1314243202 385630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sourceLanguageManagerGetLanguageSource" Gtk, I... < 1314243320 475177 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Data.Set would not work if you need unordered sets, then < 1314243324 102264 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What. < 1314243420 269604 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be willing to bet Data.Set is doing a binary tree behind the scenes. < 1314243441 206415 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Data.Set is unordered. < 1314243446 410177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1314243453 209420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't expose the ordering. < 1314243461 21669 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that or the utterly naive algorithm, nub . sort :P < 1314243484 764267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But the Ord instance can be totally arbitrary. < 1314243527 948289 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. I'd think the only thing Ord would imply is that there is, in fact, an ordering. < 1314243595 776003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: BTW it's slightly better than I said, s/GetLanguageSource/GetLanguage/ (Haddock fail) < 1314243611 787116 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Still, WTF does it even do? < 1314243623 416655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gets a language, given a source language manager and a language name. < 1314243684 952892 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange. < 1314243768 46046 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1314243966 699820 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you mess up things by making a pseudo Ord set (meaning it does not follow the Ord laws) < 1314243987 373021 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314243998 192506 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it breaks. < 1314244062 553532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well you're at least going to have to get EQ vs. something that isn't EQ, I presume < 1314244071 81376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it specifically checks again with == which would be pointless :P < 1314244218 37072 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1314244222 287123 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1314244429 671252 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1314244447 382492 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's it going monqy? < 1314244517 380484 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My situation before of where you might want a value to have zero or more constructors of a datatype, is mathematically a set (assume constructors have no parameters for simplicity), and this Data.Set could be used, I guess, you can derive Ord and then it can be used. < 1314244558 626459 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it might not necessarily be best, if you can store as a bit field and use the bit manipulation commands of the computer, for types with only a small number of constructors < 1314244619 185191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello DeM0nFiRe < 1314244621 889164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't burn < 1314244643 323077 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: oh hi. it's going. < 1314244671 234411 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1314244697 612805 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I am working on is not REALLY esoteric but some people might think it is. I am trying to design a machine to facilitate kay OOP < 1314244773 907807 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kay, so a Smalltalk machine? < 1314244793 156488 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like a completely and utterly reasonable goal. < 1314244795 955091 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not for specifically Smalltalk, but that kind of idea < 1314244798 234916 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Extreme late-binding of everything" Kay OOP. < 1314244812 911799 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Well, that is one of the 3 requirements, yes :P < 1314244817 579264 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the easy part :P < 1314244833 186875 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1314244840 175323 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the requirements is local retention of state which is kind of getting me right now < 1314244864 545583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's local mean there < 1314244872 721393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like orthogonal persistence to me < 1314244874 900942 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then so does everything < 1314244876 177135 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means everything about an object is known only to an object < 1314244880 1423 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was working on a Smalltalk-like language recently, but I bailed when the folks in here made me realise that I really wanted a concatenative language rather than an applicative one. < 1314244880 334922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1314244890 313047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: doesn't that basically just mean there aren't any backdoors... < 1314244894 290038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you can't go poking pointers < 1314244900 27437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise i don't see why you would have to expose anything not explicitly exposed < 1314244911 880193 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic sum of what Kay OOP means is that objects are like little black boxes, and the only thing you know about each black box is that it can send and recieve messages < 1314244923 581128 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything you need to know or anything you want the box to do has to be done through messages < 1314244931 138544 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware :) < 1314244965 388926 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure elliott likes Alan Kay. :) < 1314244968 375728 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1314244974 900016 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just making sure what I wanted was clear :D < 1314244984 598104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't see how local retention of state is something you have to... do? < 1314244989 359585 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just don't expose anything about the objects < 1314244997 686008 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's more of a don't. < 1314245001 651954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're trying to run arbitrary machine code and force it to obey these restrictions, in which case lol < 1314245005 345054 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, keeping objects from knowing about each other is easy enough < 1314245027 903124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to "keep" them from doing it? If they don't have a reference to an object they don't know about it < 1314245031 613034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't give them any :) < 1314245057 506605 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah I want to be able to make it so from outside an object there is just no way to get the info from it. Of course since my machine is running on top of whatever other OS, once it gets to that OS level it's just in RAM like everything else < 1314245084 788285 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But more as a thought excercise I would like to keep as true to that part of OOP as I can < 1314245190 932911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call it something other than OOP, if onl because the term OOP is used to mean so many terrible things nowadays :P < 1314245200 798500 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I know what you mean :P < 1314245203 777123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: It sounds to me like you just want to define a really simple message-passing language < 1314245209 511608 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But to me it's still the only true OOP :P < 1314245211 916521 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1314245229 463303 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, message passing and late binding are super easy, and keeping objects from knowing about other objects is easy < 1314245252 278224 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just those things are enough to put the language I have designed on top of it < 1314245267 482008 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a good language < 1314245274 755672 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think so :P < 1314245291 52169 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan on using it for scripting for games :P < 1314245311 723032 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being able to arbitrarily redefine objects at will would be awesome for that < 1314245319 352938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sits, lounges in the superiority gifted to him by functional zealotry. < 1314245364 352815 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1314245380 398118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This lounge needs a sofa. < 1314245390 113869 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah well < 1314245402 510342 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over here in my lounge, I can take the table I am not using anymore and make it a sofa < 1314245410 40896 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life is good :P < 1314245426 692916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And everyone else keeps assuming it's a table, and then suddenly your sofa is full of all kinds of shit that would normally go on a table < 1314245431 414417 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And people sit on it and it's fucking uncomfortable < 1314245439 767311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this analogy the uncomfortability is using an impure language and you are the one doing the using < 1314245454 363991 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im the one putting the tacks there < 1314245455 593767 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats me < 1314245468 378381 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now now, are you two arguing about mutability? < 1314245468 752089 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you like your tacks elsewhere < 1314245470 541982 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tsk tsk. < 1314245472 134730 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, nah, it's cool. Saves a lot on up front design time < 1314245480 289180 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I mean < 1314245492 709236 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use it like a different language, you're going to get burned < 1314245504 4484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: fuck tha police < 1314245504 831439 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you program in C++ like you are programming in C#, you are going to get burned :P < 1314245512 964894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you program in C++ [...] you are going to get burned :P < 1314245517 36448 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh hey now < 1314245517 553974 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just about to say < 1314245520 177170 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that exact same thing < 1314245528 356147 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1314245542 509792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the problem with my sockpuppet account < 1314245555 113177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is prone to revealing his true nature >:( < 1314245568 737488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That totally made sense when I was writing it. < 1314245571 783142 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is not bad if you restrict yourself to a subset of it that is actually sane :D < 1314245579 386128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the subset is empty) < 1314245583 266805 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know what you meant :P < 1314245588 223179 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what elliott? < 1314245590 900250 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are a hater :P < 1314245603 459051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess with a sufficiently bad definition of sane the subset might be the parts of C that C++ isn't incompatible with :P < 1314245624 627419 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i a hatter too < 1314245650 573448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad hatter <-- us < 1314245654 973787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the us is all of us) < 1314245655 919786 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyway, no one here is interested in designing a machine more or less for the sake of designing a machine :P < 1314245664 602849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We aren't? < 1314245668 67183 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer to design good machines < 1314245679 722219 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you were telling me to settle for less than Kay OO :P < 1314245682 426970 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but designing good machines for the sake of it is just fine < 1314245695 881381 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this would be a good machine. If done properly it would be super secure < 1314245707 142372 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itt: object capability model < 1314245719 127038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually restricted to OO languages :P < 1314245738 806426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I am not seriously hating on your machine I just have to reassert my functional superiority when required < 1314245741 223263 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, of course not < 1314245752 407398 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Message passing is also not restricted to OOP :P < 1314245760 43121 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither is late binding :P < 1314245781 820653 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i save my hattred for evincar's languages < 1314245788 184908 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's all 3 together that make up OOP. Kay didn't invent all aspects of OOP, it took the seperate pieces and put it together < 1314245788 724378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hattred < 1314245789 962396 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1314245794 721062 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: hi < 1314245797 416894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: YUO SUMMED THE DEMON < 1314245805 380738 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a good read http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/pub_jf47ht81Ht/doc_kay_oop_en < 1314245807 595751 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even get pinged. < 1314245811 316637 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just lurk. < 1314245819 611784 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how're your languages < 1314245820 905316 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like something eldritch that isn't an abomination. < 1314245833 16420 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also "OOP to me means only messaging, local retention and protection and < 1314245833 103248 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiding of state-process, and extreme late-binding of all things." < 1314245849 639997 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what Alan Kay said on what he meant when he originally said "OOP" < 1314245862 22428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's historical revisionism at work there :P < 1314245866 434287 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Oh, y'know. Thinking about that concatenative one and trying to figure out what sets it apart from Factor. < 1314245877 353833 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh well < 1314245889 229529 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, yes, he was able to state it more clearly now than then < 1314245890 655039 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is factor any good < 1314245913 81777 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you look at what inspired OOP in the first place, it's not too hard to see what he was going for < 1314245930 986782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you find this place btw was it the wiki < 1314245936 603057 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Burroughs 5000 is mentioned in there, and that's what got me into thinking about trying to really grab that local state hiding and protection deal < 1314245951 750085 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I did a search for something I forget what < 1314245953 724206 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And found the wiki < 1314245966 239950 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how I found the wiki. maybe intercal. < 1314245995 588430 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did a search for esoteric < 1314246011 568853 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe esoteric irc < 1314246020 482497 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I was specifically looking for an IRC channel :P < 1314246074 133169 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, unforgable reference. That is what I am missing < 1314246095 313285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: unforgeable references are not hard? just don't offer something stupid like casting an integer to a pointer < 1314246120 920941 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I am not talking about from the language, that's easy to do like I said < 1314246142 159534 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, I am talking about not being able to run even machine code to inspect objects < 1314246151 381817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no difference between machine code and a langauge < 1314246152 253272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :language < 1314246163 957521 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright I guess I misunderstood what you meant < 1314246166 556545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :machine code just prioritises different things < 1314246175 645957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance: how do you forge a reference on a traditional processor? < 1314246185 969102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov dword [something expecting to contain a pointer], 99 < 1314246192 455040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just casting an integer to a pointer :P < 1314246229 112362 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1314246286 383221 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright I think I can figure something out. < 1314246343 693250 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the other fun part about the language/machine < 1314246349 480702 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to work easily with C++! < 1314246370 111162 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :work < 1314246370 900059 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1314246371 841316 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < 1314246372 553618 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ < 1314246377 737027 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1314246382 103304 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I uh < 1314246385 144175 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I write my game engine stuff in C++ < 1314246392 893736 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you plan on doing this < 1314246403 211043 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why < 1314246442 992250 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well the why is not too hard, I write engines in C++, want to be able to natually connect the engine and the scripting without having to use C < 1314246476 852601 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The how is, well I haven't entirely figured it out. :P < 1314246484 363195 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why do you do this in c++ < 1314246506 65402 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I want the low-ish level of C++ and I want classes < 1314246510 536171 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what exactly do you mean by work easily with C++ < 1314246513 284100 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why torture yourself? < 1314246541 680560 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Presumably he means "work easily with C". < 1314246542 609071 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to be able to expose C++ code to the language and vica versa < 1314246549 482321 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I do not mean work easily with C < 1314246550 614150 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want low-ish level of c++, why do you want classes, are there no other suitable languages < 1314246566 673330 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: There are very few languages that interact with C++. < 1314246580 615622 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then I guess that is why I am making one, isn't it? < 1314246588 595128 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: if it's unrestricted c++, you're hopeless < 1314246588 677019 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know full well that there are very few < 1314246590 9160 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there is a reason for that. < 1314246596 396557 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: It's not unrestricted < 1314246601 29503 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is an esolang. < 1314246613 717372 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1314246617 553653 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you are just trolling < 1314246621 946670 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1314246625 686426 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm being entirely honest. < 1314246629 259679 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: ok, what are the restrictions, and how will you enforce them < 1314246640 767798 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, well there's no need to continue the discussion on whether you like C++ or not :| < 1314246647 670957 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also contains a couple! < 1314246663 812090 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1314246667 966885 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other new idea of feature in Haskell is automatic instances, where if there is no instance it will make one up using the program you specify to make it up. One use can be for tuples instances, but there can be others. < 1314246693 606685 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Well, the main restriction is that every type that is returned or taken as a paramater for a function has to be wrapped, so it requires either some foresight or glue code < 1314246697 273555 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you trying to make with C++? I prefer to use C rather than C++ but that is just my opinion < 1314246713 321547 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there are libraries that let you make things to derive things for things < 1314246730 67536 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer C++ because I like classes < 1314246734 46911 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: is there any way to undo this wrapping < 1314246735 350321 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: As you may have noticed, C++ is not well-liked in here. < 1314246748 986790 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: or tamper < 1314246754 456124 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: hint: the answer is yes < 1314246758 306470 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Defined by the wrapper, but for it to be useful obviously you would want to make it reversible :P < 1314246798 687638 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: as I understand it, if you're able to muck with the invariants of your machine in any way from the c++ side, you're screwed < 1314246806 566066 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Can you give examples of those kind of deriving? < 1314246809 784243 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Realistically speaking, it means you will only want to wrap at a very high level so that you can wrap as few classes as possible < 1314246819 660404 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's how a scripting language should be used in game development anyway < 1314246832 311404 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: deriving instances for datatypes? I think one such thing is in the derive package < 1314246874 602156 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing something like wrapping a whole game engine would be a pain in the ass, and it would also be not a great idea in any language < 1314246886 370427 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But wrapping, say, a level class, some actor classes, some world object classes < 1314246911 835576 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314246918 625682 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Actually I mean other things too. For example you might make up a automatic instance to make a function automatically work with all lengths of tuples < 1314246924 226279 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more managable, if done right you're going to get better performance, it's a clearer seperation of core programming and game scriptiing < 1314246926 301604 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: and how would you do this wrapping in such a way that you maintain your machine/language's invariants < 1314246928 967471 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :scripting* < 1314246975 677660 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh. there's TH, and possibly some other things as well, for things like that?? < 1314246982 112308 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm not sure exactly what you want < 1314246982 387022 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Well, that is part of what I am working out. I want to have functions actually be procedure objects, and so then wrapping a class will actually wrap each member function < 1314246990 214344 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: TH can do that, but not automatically. < 1314246990 647133 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a procedure object < 1314246999 198403 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what do you mean by automatically? < 1314247002 916273 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, one thing to note is that things like classes and functions will only exist at the syntax level < 1314247007 716123 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: as in it's resolved by the type system? < 1314247020 231012 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I mean, if it requires an instance but there isn't one, it calls the TH code you specify to create that instance. < 1314247033 939218 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :When read by the interpreter, the functions will become some sort of procedure object, and classes will actually become a clonable object < 1314247054 946534 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to make a new MyObject you will actually be cloning an object, not instancing a class < 1314247058 933506 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And will automatically determine when this is needed and use the same TH code in all these cases that it can be used with. < 1314247101 992014 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: so something along the lines of prototypes? < 1314247106 520148 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly < 1314247173 724431 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will be adding some stuff on top of that such as "freezing" and object which will make it so that object cannot be redefined, finalizing an object which will make it so it and copies of it cannot be changed < 1314247195 231909 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that way you can ensure that a number object is actually a number object :P < 1314247224 634580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you saida lot < 1314247230 144996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: was saying good or bad < 1314247237 245239 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what case would a number object not be a nubmer object < 1314247246 709500 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Do you understand what I mean now? < 1314247258 822282 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Well, the heart of this whole thing is that an object can be completely redefined < 1314247274 625765 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So one object may have entirely different properties from when it was created < 1314247280 958954 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would not be a good thing for numbers < 1314247288 208079 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :would not be a good thing for anything < 1314247288 708171 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1314247293 489511 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you're wrong :P < 1314247304 84707 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wouldn't want to actually change every single property < 1314247306 332271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : monqy: Actually I mean other things too. For example you might make up a automatic instance to make a function automatically work with all lengths of tuples < 1314247309 22963 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the automatic instances can be recursive in case some cases of the ways that automatic instances are made up require instances too < 1314247310 670709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a finite number of tuple types < 1314247321 498743 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the fact that the properties of an object are defined at the object level rather than at a class level is super useful < 1314247338 766144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: how is that different to prototype-based oo? < 1314247341 245683 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how would you write an instance-maker? < 1314247355 795483 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What is the limit of tuple types? < 1314247366 229165 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: fifteen i think, it's in the report < 1314247368 146070 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, first of all prototype based OO is closer to real OO than anything I know of except Kay OO itself :P < 1314247372 96823 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: One way could be using Template Haskell. < 1314247391 327393 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second of all, like I said I will be adding things that are not in any prototype language that I know of < 1314247392 908931 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is not only for tuples anyways. < 1314247417 191748 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like freezing and finalizing, and there will be a sort of different inheritance model, since classes won't actually exist in the machine < 1314247421 377927 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if objects were immutable and there was no way for the c++ side to muck............then you'd have your numbers be numbers............ < 1314247425 569272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a lot of languages have freezing < 1314247435 15014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: classes don't exist in prototype oo languages too :P < 1314247450 512246 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, they will exist in my language but not my machine < 1314247457 258579 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They will exist in syntax, but not the machine < 1314247492 134369 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and how would that work, more specifically? < 1314247501 133947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you may be interested in http://community.haskell.org/~ndm/downloads/paper-deriving_a_relationship_from_a_single_example-04_sep_2009.pdf < 1314247511 258892 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In all honesty < 1314247517 344972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in SLIDE FORM :P http://community.haskell.org/~ndm/downloads/slides-deriving_a_relationship_from_a_single_example-04_sep_2009.pdf < 1314247528 127079 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there was a good implementation of JavaScript I would use that probably because it is close enough that I could use it for what I want < 1314247545 732874 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: how is V8 not good? it's even C++ :P < 1314247551 280573 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1314247560 255479 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's C++ but still utilized in mostly C style < 1314247565 112958 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I hate google with a passion < 1314247566 687189 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Hypothetically assume Template Haskell has a function: automaticInstance :: Class -> (Type -> Q [Dec]) -> Q [Dec] (I might have some details wrong) < 1314247568 852688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pings Gregor to handle whatever DeM0nFiRe says about javascript implementations since he's the expert < 1314247576 219146 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1314247587 869937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: you're letting your opinions of companies get in the way of using open source code that fills your needs? ok < 1314247602 570933 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :V8 is really the only true, mature standalone implementation of JavaScript, at least that I know of. I mean there's SpiderMonkey but that comes from mozilla < 1314247611 804245 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It also doesn't fill my needs, as I said < 1314247614 232319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :spidermonkey's just as standalone < 1314247617 52250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhino too < 1314247640 910219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: you just said it was "mostly C style" which was totally not the impression I got when I read its API docs and I don't see how wrapping it to your needs wouldn't be simpler than writing a totally new thing :P < 1314247644 462254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i'm against writing a totally new thing < 1314247646 835917 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhino is Opera's right? That's not available to use AFAIK < 1314247650 24202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems weird to say that there is nothing that fits < 1314247651 740376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1314247662 559203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's java though, so you probably don't care :) < 1314247667 877955 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's Mozilla < 1314247667 961067 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Google's house style, like that of just about everyone sane, omits several C++ features. < 1314247671 304542 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, ok well then no I don't care < 1314247676 526544 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Google's case, most notably exceptions. < 1314247692 702575 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that is not what I am talking about < 1314247695 286035 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ exceptions, of course, are a great misfeature. < 1314247709 356635 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You call a series of functions to define objects with V8, that is not what I want < 1314247720 914680 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nooooo < 1314247735 792213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely that is wrappable. < 1314247743 412647 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty sure I can come up with a way to at least semi-automagically wrap a C++ class and turn it into an object in my language < 1314247757 486470 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehehehehehe good luck < 1314247767 548955 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: can't you make that translate to a series of function calls < 1314247775 425396 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do you plan on doing this? < 1314247781 364821 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's also not about going for the easiest solution. If there was an out-of-the-box JavaScript solution, I would use it. There's not, so I might as well go all out and make a language that does exactly what I want < 1314247783 502626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: rtti stuff i guess < 1314247825 402333 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the other cool thing is that my machine will work for making a JavaScript implementation on top of it :) < 1314247853 593659 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it will also be a platform for me to explore other language design related ideas that aren't something I would want to put in this language I am working on < 1314247868 591776 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what all do you know about language design anyhow < 1314247894 82811 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or think you know, or want to explore, etc etc < 1314247897 456603 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, mostly what I have learned from studying the design of other languages, things like that < 1314247908 210706 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :other languages like what < 1314247936 395290 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrugs* whatever, JavaScript, Ruby, Smalltalk, Java, C++ < 1314247946 432861 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that not all of them were looked at for examples of what was good :P < 1314247964 107675 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I advise learning at least a functional language and a logic language < 1314247965 511808 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least < 1314247974 239562 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do plan on that < 1314248020 522811 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I advise all programmers to learn a few things about Forth programming, even if they decide later to never use it and/or to never continue to learn it < 1314248036 554442 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to make my own language because I actually looked at, I don't know, maybe 30 different languages? Trying to find one to do what I wanted < 1314248062 141282 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And none of them did what I want, so I am sick of looking at languages so it's time to make one :P < 1314248138 23047 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also had ideas trying to find one to do what I wanted, although different than yours. Still read this I wrote my ideas of what I wanted in a specific usage programming language https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language It could probably be done with enough extensions to Haskell, though. < 1314248287 443918 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM is pretty cool stuff, but I couldn't quite find a way to implement what I wanted on top of it < 1314248343 789397 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like LLVM too. I think LLVM is much better designed than C. < 1314248352 808901 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1314248396 674657 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing is if there are new reserved words, they will never conflict with any names you use in your program. < 1314248422 372223 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM with powerful macro preprocessor would be very good programming language. < 1314248436 734442 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will likely later change my language up a bit to make it work on LLVM (I would mainly just have to remove the C++ interop stuff < 1314248444 399277 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1314248505 184417 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ interop stuff makes it more useful to me as a scripting language for games, but LLVM would add better C interop plus presumedly MUCH better performance, which would be better for a standalone language < 1314248722 927120 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have included Forth in MegaZeux for use as an interpreted language; MegaZeux also has Robotic, and you can use both codes in the same game world. < 1314248784 494138 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This MegaZeux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaZeux ? < 1314248864 786090 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that one. However I made some extensions to it which are available here: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/ < 1314248915 525410 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here are some examples of the Forth codes that you can use with it: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=PZX#Examples_of_Forth_Codes < 1314248947 454813 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Understanding ZZT would also help you to understand the uses of the examples better) < 1314249003 724060 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, well, I kind of doubt any of this would be directly useful for what I do, anyway. Know where I can find more technical info about things like the renderer and such? < 1314249054 566445 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh, looks like it's SDL now? < 1314249069 803128 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MegaZeux is using SDL. And I have used SDL for other programs too. < 1314249080 635172 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a fan of SDL myself < 1314249104 618948 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like SDL, though. < 1314249106 59910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does zzt like things even count as rendering < 1314249114 336220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.textmodegames.com/images/screens/zzt.gif pro rendering < 1314249130 251833 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1314249170 81205 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1314249170 573835 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sure, you're rendering to a high-level (char+fg+bg) display, rather than a low-level (r+g+b) one. < 1314249171 156618 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No yeah I was just thinking allowed. I hadn't ever heard of MegaZeux before so I was wondering if it's something worth looking more into for myself < 1314249208 700976 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aloud* < 1314249210 532999 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own extensions of MegaZeux do allow writing custom renderers in Forth, although it is not very well documented. < 1314249213 240481 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> <.< I didn't just do that < 1314249241 484821 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here describes a series of games I make with MegaZeux: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town < 1314249258 588325 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like ascii rendering, it's pretty cool < 1314249265 669406 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which things under "Criticize" do you believe and which ones not? < 1314249266 213095 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had a game idea that would be good for it lol < 1314249291 328663 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What do you mean believe? < 1314249301 461286 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This game is bad because Hitler played it. < 1314249304 526102 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that MegaZeux does allow you to customize the character set (even at runtime), although I just used the CP437 < 1314249321 506929 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh by ASCII I was being bad and I meant text rendering :P < 1314249325 87920 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: I mean which ones you believe are correct and which ones you believe are incorrect < 1314249370 4369 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh my guess is that everything is false? < 1314249370 171208 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :("ASCII" appears in its name because the entire series uses only CP437 character set) < 1314249383 159786 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1314249396 313831 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was going to do a text game I would likely use the extended ASCII < 1314249403 804436 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I believe you are correct that everything there is false < 1314249416 624793 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff other than the "Criticize" list is correct, though. < 1314249440 679168 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did the digital MZX people really say all of it was true though? o.0 < 1314249485 117249 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :DeM0nFiRe: Well, sort of. Actually some of them are things other people said, but some are other stuff, or things in between these extremes, etc < 1314249523 830578 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, "This game is bad because Hitler played it." is actually a quotation from a scroll in one of the levels in this game. < 1314249536 699176 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1314249562 575105 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MagicGems are exactly like ZZT gems." is a statement general to MegaZeux, not specific to my game, although many people believe it to be correct although it isn't true at all. < 1314249586 978192 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh well, clearly I would have no comment on that since I know what neither gems are :D < 1314249675 995371 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1314249718 780937 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just note that the example Forth code I have linked to is much closer to being like ZZT gems. < 1314249741 386887 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't wait til I have my machine finished, it will open up a lot of possibilities for me < 1314249776 687991 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In one level you have to go through a corridor of lava with a windy potion and then quickly retreat from danger." Actually someone is being deluded by one of the puzzles; that is not the way to solve the puzzle at all. < 1314249886 974041 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is the world file ZIP in case you want to play a game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ascmzxto.zip < 1314249903 684871 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh would I need to install MZX to run it? < 1314249912 197069 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also need MegaZeux; select the file you need from http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/ < 1314249925 220479 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, sorry, I am not going to install that right now < 1314249962 260754 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You do not need the megazeux.4th file unless you are writing games that use Forth codes; if you are running a game using Forth codes it will include its own copy of megazeux.4th) < 1314250029 105118 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not an installer; simply unzip it into a directory, and then edit the config.txt to set your preferences. < 1314250116 941099 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it's 1:30AM so I am not planning on doing anything but chatting a bit more lol < 1314250137 377608 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1314250170 169579 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you said you like SDL, have you ever used OpenGL or Direct3D directly? < 1314250187 209964 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1314250194 907113 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know I have play D&D game? I have even recorded it, although I am not finished recording the second session < 1314250202 468241 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never used OpenGL or Direct3D. < 1314250247 985226 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh. Took me a while to decide to use OpenGL directly. I used SDL and a few different wrappers for Ruby of it before that < 1314250297 619584 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never used the 3D rendering stuff < 1314250318 730567 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact one program I wrote using SDL is available on Esolang wiki < 1314250322 926168 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I am not actually using OpenGL for 3D stuff right now either < 1314250334 286264 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :direct opengl is pretty uglygross ime; i prefer sdl < 1314250340 476429 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1314250347 766150 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on what you are doing < 1314250364 492888 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the ugly stuff (like glBegin()/glEnd()) has been removed from OpenGL < 1314250386 292938 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just shaders now or what < 1314250386 479700 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(implementations will still let you use it for backwards compatibility reasons, but you aren't supposed to :P ) < 1314250395 306573 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, everything's shader based now < 1314250431 705047 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I write OpenGL 3.1 compliant code (mostly) but I do it in an OpenGL 2.0 context so that it can be used on more machines < 1314250448 543243 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I am not using things like geometry shaders from GL3.1 < 1314250500 76311 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Direct mode was intuitive, but unwieldy. I'm glad it's been deprecated. < 1314250507 116658 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly < 1314250516 19148 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was something that was really easy to get started with < 1314250532 676303 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was very very slow and it made your code invariably ugly < 1314250538 532615 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you tried writing a large project with it, God help you. < 1314250555 349690 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GL 3.1 way to do things is harder to get set up initially, but once you do, everything is just nice < 1314250556 695028 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicer* < 1314250563 194246 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : // Warning: GL2.0 code ahead. Here be dragons. < 1314250574 122070 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Faster, clearer, easier to maintain, easier to modify < 1314250598 286074 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using only one thing that is in GL2.0 but not GL3.1 < 1314250602 203162 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GL_QUADS :P < 1314250625 162191 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been too lazy to set up the equivalent with GL_TRIANGLE_STRIP or GL_TRIANGLES < 1314250634 423221 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will likely change it later, though < 1314250653 887362 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah also I am using GLSL 1.1 obviously :P < 1314250683 864732 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not using anything that has been removed from later GLSL versions < 1314250964 907254 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I made a list of implementation in my esolang wiki user page < 1314251110 841734 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My implementation of Deadfish in dc seems very strange < 1314251158 834856 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The entire program fits right here (it implements the XKCD variation of Deadfish): [p]1:z[d*]2:z[1+]3:z[1-]4:z[0sB]dsAx[lB0>AlB256=A0d?lBz;zxsBclCx]dsCx < 1314251190 681923 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dc codes are often like that, but this one is a bit more strange than most dc codes in one way < 1314251393 829201 :DeM0nFiRe!~kvirc@71-87-215-127.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com QUIT :Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/ < 1314251789 130184 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it is already possible to implement Markov chain using FurryScript, it might be better to add some commands to specifically deal with Markov chain, although I am unsure. < 1314252683 41248 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314254535 986965 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1314254597 687337 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like my brother's CRT monitor has a problem. It's permanently stuck on projecting an apple core shape (sides bending in) and the bottom of it goes off screen even when you try to shrink it < 1314254813 904172 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many things that could be, none of them good. < 1314254824 354113 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you considered getting a monitor made this millenium? < 1314254833 331888 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(god I love that I can say that) < 1314254911 886273 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: ^5 < 1314255008 994391 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I -think- it was made this millenium < 1314255017 118457 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is < 1314255141 905234 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a good educational experience. He just learned how to manipulate windows (minimize restore etc) using just the keyboard < 1314255217 331296 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314255229 448642 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1314255249 981941 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kindles disconnect easy we using 3G < 1314255299 759285 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have hepython documentation on my laptop < 1314255304 467238 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/he/the / < 1314255393 905677 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone here? < 1314255435 165827 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1314255440 290180 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1314255471 327947 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1314255472 200491 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to decide on which Lisp/Scheme web framework to use. < 1314255486 202301 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anybody have meaningful opinions on that? < 1314255523 990628 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll give Tanebcraft a futuristic theme < 1314255541 8003 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, sorry < 1314255610 722164 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never used either Lisp/Scheme or a web framework < 1314255645 429315 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll go with PLT, a.k.a. Racket, and hope for the best. < 1314255735 826776 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me how that goes < 1314255994 133941 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that the kindle lacks is tabbed browsing < 1314256081 744024 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So comma bye < 1314256339 978181 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314257206 216487 :chickenzilla!~zack@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314258402 774300 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This library has a lot of needless abstraction. :( < 1314258412 897501 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And macro trickery for the mere sake of it. < 1314258485 412668 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1314258488 401312 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No abstraction is needless. Most abstraction is underabstracted. < 1314258499 117042 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ain't abstract enough until it's an endofunctor! < 1314258507 963133 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1314258516 786552 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with pikhq_; you're probably missing some point or another < 1314258529 314546 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I was kidding. < 1314258540 567618 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many programmers are genuinely bad at abstraction. < 1314258545 349153 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :See: FactoryFactory. < 1314258551 332401 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1314258564 178174 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm not used to misabstraction horrors < 1314258568 114346 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually it's the other way around < 1314258588 461844 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but when you get misabstraction it's *bad*. < 1314258690 742280 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: any examples? I'm a bit curious, now < 1314258740 614792 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-64-222-158-144.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314258756 182689 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314258846 905217 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1314258848 925373 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1314259254 457935 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1314259312 777135 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-157-108.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314259318 928642 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314259583 858253 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1314259592 328224 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang has got blocks in C < 1314259654 321075 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1314260318 902538 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314260630 220062 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For the benefit of those who observe Webster’s spelling reforms, \textblockcolor is defined as a synonym for \textblockcolour, but those who would condemn such anaemic half measures can use \tekstblokkulur instead. There are also the corresponding spelling-reform variants of \textblockrulecolour." < 1314260646 858256 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: It's not that bad. I'm hard to please when it comes to libraries. < 1314260672 858736 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some handy macros, but they have awful names like #%# < 1314260683 440864 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha what < 1314260699 463029 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they at least have a consistent, if not half-sensible naming scheme? < 1314260714 13025 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They must, but I don't know where to find it. < 1314260720 735523 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :where by half sensible I mean pertaining to their function < 1314260731 561096 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :consistency alone is some sensibility, perhaps even a half < 1314260869 729428 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the tutorial for making a basic blog, there's this: < 1314260875 107610 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define new-post-formlet (formlet (#%# ,{input-string . => . title} ,{input-string . => . body}) (values title body))) < 1314260884 796888 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than, say, this: < 1314260886 441339 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define new-post-formlet (formlet (xexpr-list ((title input-string) (body input-string))) (values title body))) < 1314260919 432278 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macros are all well and good, but I like things to be concise. < 1314260928 784217 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And to reflect the most common use case, with minimal weird syntax. < 1314261029 137454 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get #%#, but depending on the other workings of the library, I see how the ,{} notation could make more sense than what you did < 1314261030 85193 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Formlets being their own little quirk which arise from designing a web server...framework...thing around stateful continuations.) < 1314261036 561336 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know enough to tell, of course < 1314261041 854341 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, and neither do I. < 1314261048 634403 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm saying that API design should < 1314261051 83369 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :be simple. < 1314261066 67990 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even at the cost of implementation complexity. < 1314261078 964419 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it probably *won't* come at the cost of implementation complexity. < 1314261089 747203 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In all but pathological cases. < 1314261121 651752 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even that I can't figure out how to use it. < 1314261135 162625 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should just be obvious. < 1314261145 181457 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discoverability is a huge concern in API design. < 1314261154 609645 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A user should be able to guess what function he needs. < 1314261255 32585 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I'm just griping 'cause it's fun. < 1314261268 382954 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually meant in terms of api design < 1314261393 502201 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what you're getting at. < 1314261416 278260 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, modelling web transactions with continuations is very pretty. < 1314261605 29305 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world calls me with a request, and I generate and call a page which returns to me with another request. < 1314261622 114284 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The result of a form submission, etc. < 1314261631 640742 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that is good < 1314261647 710804 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't think about why continuations are useful until you think about async io < 1314261672 352622 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I was talking about it might be conceptually nicer and more elegant etc etc to use a notation more like the one in the original rather than yours < 1314261711 316202 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Oh, it might be, if you understand the reasoning behind it. < 1314261742 632647 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it depends on other things that can happen in the parts you changed < 1314261743 140756 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not immediately clear that #%# denotes a list of XML expressions. < 1314261752 361690 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I argue that it ought to be, all other things being equal. < 1314261772 836606 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(By renaming it.) < 1314261778 469397 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about the structure, rather than names < 1314261792 791270 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, of the part with the braces and arrows, which you restructured quite a bit < 1314261809 853802 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :your names are generally more reasonable < 1314261826 426920 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should I have to use braces? Why should I have to unquote what I send to this macro? < 1314261852 981433 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know! It depends on the other stuff in the library. that's my point. < 1314261902 580302 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point is that you ought to know, or rather, you ought to be able to discern from the code itself why it's written the way it is. < 1314261907 588949 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this is a short example. < 1314261928 52234 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's hardly worth discussing. < 1314261952 204360 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's always of the same ,{thing . => . thing} structure, then yours is probably more reasonable, though just a slight bit less intuitive to read < 1314262458 172233 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. This is interesting. < 1314262483 41152 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Racket also lets you model stateful servlets as stateless ones by serialising the continuations. < 1314262506 72438 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strikes me as brittle, as all of the serialised continuations are invalidated whenever you change your application. < 1314262523 166318 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they can't be small. < 1314262526 941236 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't non-serialised continuations be invalidated too? < 1314262549 911628 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll be removed though, because the server will have stopped running the program. < 1314262563 258140 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they'll be invalid, but also gone. < 1314262575 8526 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens if you unserialize an invalid continuation? < 1314262577 452752 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they can't persist to fuck shit up in the future. < 1314262596 286775 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, presumably your application suffers catastrophic failure. < 1314262618 194212 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be smart enough to throw an exception < 1314262642 689382 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is, actually. < 1314262658 254025 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, peh. < 1314262663 967883 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There has to be a better way of going about it. < 1314262687 914104 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :version-sensitive continuations? < 1314262715 462597 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's still the same line of thinking though. < 1314262734 532660 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally I'd like forward-compatible continuations. < 1314262744 973672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1314262759 429113 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those that don't fail unless what they refer to no longer exists. < 1314262802 210176 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :do any programs even do that atm? < 1314262804 589656 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :does chrome do it yet? lol < 1314263029 796921 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, every time you upgrade you have to make a migration script unless you are happy with the continuations being thrown away < 1314263046 80352 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ok a lot of the time < 1314263231 299373 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: No, explicit migration wouldn't be necessary if the continuations were genuinely forward-compatible. < 1314263263 298213 :CakeProphet!~adam@h40.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314263263 474090 :CakeProphet!~adam@h40.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1314263263 545583 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1314263297 360133 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm wondering is what kind of language has continuations for referring to "where I am now and what the rest of the compuation is" in a way that doesn't depend on the rest of the program. < 1314263316 813790 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm picturing some kind of diff-related utility < 1314263326 158655 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the kind I read about that works on arbitrary data types not just strings < 1314263331 603032 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make continuations explicit by writing things in CPS, your whole program is inside-out and the "rest" is "goddamn everything". < 1314263358 723941 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: this is impossible < 1314263535 628281 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree. If you specify things at a sufficiently high level, you can probably reduce dependencies to the point where it's feasible. < 1314263553 133842 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a 'language simulator' where the operations you can do on the code are small and atomic, so it can keep track of every programming element, e.g. assigning IDs to them? < 1314263560 187592 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you cannot < 1314263561 199732 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be horrifically slow of course < 1314263639 366641 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is probably one of those things I assume should just work which turns out to be equivalent to the halting problem. < 1314263666 299818 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent? < 1314263693 77675 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Something bother you about the term? < 1314263696 988607 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1314263699 310525 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you automatically migrate a continuation from "def main { f() } def f {yield; print 2 }" to "def main { print 2+2, yield' g() } def g { z = 7 ; yield; v = 3 }" < 1314263716 249847 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry that ' should be a ; < 1314263731 140259 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: if "the term" means "comparing this to the halting problem" < 1314263737 351208 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot possibly even compare those code paths < 1314263760 876076 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :@cheater: what about a 'language simulator' where the operations you can do on the code are small and atomic, so it can keep track of every programming element, e.g. assigning IDs to them? < 1314263761 21758 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1314263767 31525 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: it's not related to the halting problem at all, let alone equivalent < 1314263768 793576 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, i was reading < 1314263771 478511 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1314263795 492360 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, i am thinking of writing an AST/ASG code editor at some point < 1314263800 276569 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could facilitate such a language < 1314263801 289146 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: No, but some problems can be reduced to "if you could do this, then you could solve the halting problem, therefore your ideas are bad and you are bad". < 1314263814 710930 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could call it ELLLANG < 1314263843 500704 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELL = ? < 1314263847 351113 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it will be the first version and it will suck < 1314263858 72055 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ell comes from elliott which sucks too < 1314263863 719175 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1314263865 689390 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, burn < 1314263870 693231 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i hope the language will only suck half as much so only ELL < 1314263874 292722 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1314263878 31968 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: The point is, anyway, that you can't resume f() between versions because it's missing in the newer version. But if f() continues to exist, it might be possible. < 1314263888 663019 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314263932 113137 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, then you would keep f around as a stub. so replace the f in my question with an empty function and think about that again. the answer is the same. < 1314263962 673514 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can keep code around forever if you want but what you are doing is explicitly writing a migration path, which is exactly what you didn't want < 1314263983 600705 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maintaining forwards compatability in this manner wouldn't be useful, and would only lead to pain in the programmers, in trying to make it useful < 1314263988 194545 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the IDE could write it for you < 1314263996 962053 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then just don't modify the code outside of the IDE ever ever ever!!! < 1314264003 234662 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1314264019 439275 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :6_o < 1314264028 721745 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1314264039 757564 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it wouldn't be useful. < 1314264051 780661 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's an amusing thought experiment at five in the morning. < 1314264070 889747 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, it's 4 o'clock in the morning. What on earth are you doing? < 1314264090 577793 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Messing with time, apparently. < 1314264102 76094 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Through the magic of being on a different part of a sphere. < 1314264121 490940 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized I misquoted a meme oops < 1314264139 857924 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are wrong, hotswapping of code is very important and is done in a lot of places < 1314264143 157491 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang does that < 1314264150 257092 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ksplice does that to the linux kernel < 1314264154 159492 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :flex does it < 1314264163 478332 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :satellites do that < 1314264170 396435 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean as in flex bison? < 1314264187 656119 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :flex is a platform for flash: http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/ < 1314264218 852593 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: hotswapping may be useful, but using it to maintain forwards compatability in the general case? maybe for special cases, sure < 1314264257 5667 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or were you not replying to me < 1314264260 177283 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case oops < 1314264265 697881 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was < 1314264308 99845 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :forward compatibility should be managed at the level of one update, not as a concept of making old code compatible with new code in one step < 1314264321 798600 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that one step is actually composed out of multiple such atomic steps < 1314264346 501428 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see it that way it becomes a much less daunting task < 1314264365 923217 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you can then probably make it backwards compatible too < 1314264412 8608 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm talking about web transactions specifically. < 1314264490 277 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: maybe there's some sort of disconnect in understanding and we're actually talking about different things < 1314264492 563212 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is fairly straightforward < 1314264503 979918 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the browser accepts a page and yields a request, and the app accepts a request and yields a page. < 1314264514 344082 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you have your data structure, and the state of a transaction < 1314264529 943354 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :with web apps your data structure is migrated server-side anyways < 1314264566 905819 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the transaction is just a state of the data structure that is like a VCS brabch, not merged into the main version until it is committed < 1314264591 584368 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no reason you couldn't migrate that together with the main version of the database though < 1314264636 864724 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code is irrelevant to transactions < 1314264657 545285 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1314264677 745903 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are mid transaction, code might decide what possible changes you can do to the data < 1314264704 265771 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are usually just a few paths from every identifiable checkpoint in a transaction < 1314264724 539560 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what I meant, more specifically, was that I don't think it would be generally useful (though it would be in some cases, maybe even the common case) to swap stuff in the way evincar described for forwards-compatability purposes without some sort of migration assistance < 1314264724 847210 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just want those checkpoints to map to something in the new version and that is all < 1314264742 980184 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I probably messed up a bunch explaining previously and then < 1314264769 507662 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by migration assistance and why did you think evincar didn't want it < 1314264795 312358 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I don't think it would be useful at all. < 1314264802 825938 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be, in a way I'm not considering. < 1314264813 528386 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is super useful < 1314264822 922693 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean something explicit to assist with migration from the old code to the new code < 1314264824 527790 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of things with long standing migrations < 1314264841 189506 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a true and important problem in the Industry < 1314264852 713672 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but not generally between requests from the same user. :P < 1314264859 409700 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :User requests Page 1. < 1314264863 130959 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I send him Page 1. < 1314264868 610453 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I change my code. < 1314264874 100002 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He expects Page 2. < 1314264876 449855 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are wrong < 1314264879 158298 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My code should account for that. < 1314264879 241813 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I inferred from what evincar described is that he wanted it to be based on names, without requirement for writing migrations between versions < 1314264891 168857 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are thinking at the wrong level < 1314264903 808866 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :building applications, be it web apps or not, is not about pages < 1314264908 327671 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or screens or dialogs or panels < 1314264921 536347 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is about actions < 1314264926 185481 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine. I yield him "some data". < 1314264937 510802 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :then he comes back with that data < 1314264942 607943 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And based on said data, he yields me "some request". < 1314264949 645395 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call it what you want. < 1314264950 451213 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you invalidate it or you give him a migration path < 1314264990 32036 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is an example < 1314265010 311953 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :a satellite with a realtime control spread across two processors < 1314265038 789940 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the integration time of the PID is several minutes in order to get proper resolution < 1314265074 761925 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for swapping of hot code in the general case, V8's optimizer/whatever does that, right? < 1314265076 753713 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to upgrade the program without knocking the satellite off orbit. if the PID has to collect data over several minutes again while being unable to correct the orbit, the satellite is gone < 1314265128 790268 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by general case I mean it is a specific application of a more general thing than swapping specifically for transition between versions < 1314265141 313448 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the engine subsystem gets correction data based on the controller's output, and feeds the controller back with sensory information it got < 1314265168 738019 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sensory information changes format in the new version because e.g. the old version allowed a bug < 1314265178 294540 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to upgrade this < 1314265193 616138 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is a solid application of this programming problem < 1314265343 456716 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution 1: version everything. Solution 2: name fields and establish (possibly bidirectional) conversions. < 1314265366 837182 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution 2 is what Blender does for serialising structs in its save format. < 1314265367 87771 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1314265399 498247 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making them forward and backward compatible between versions, within reason. < 1314265410 399371 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is solution 1 a solution, and what does solution 2 mean < 1314265426 185649 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, how are either of them solutions, and what do both of them mean < 1314265454 403027 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution 1 = accept data in the old format but only generate it in the new one, and everything will be sorted eventually and then you can disable the old format. < 1314265493 210180 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so this is about data? < 1314265501 968119 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution 2 = establish a conversion between the two formats based on some metadata. < 1314265509 726080 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My problem wasn't. < 1314265519 444709 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, only insofar as code isn't data. < 1314265535 900456 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was, data and program are dual to eachother < 1314265538 349255 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I was also talking about Scheme, so I guess I was wrong. < 1314265635 841605 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :where by "about data" I mean "about establishing a translation between data formats, rather than code paths/etc." < 1314265651 344979 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It amounts to the same thing, though. < 1314265668 42027 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :your code path is part of the data format. < 1314265678 13991 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because code paths, as serialised continuations, are data. < 1314265717 819115 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the obvious format to use isn't amenable to change. < 1314265728 350972 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the obvious format < 1314265730 656571 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess I'm speculating about other formats. < 1314265744 799792 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I kind of forget what I meant < 1314265747 788115 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1314265757 733004 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I ought to sleep. < 1314265797 556137 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This hasn't been terribly useful, and if elliott reads it later he'll probably find some reason or another to shout at me. < 1314265809 599566 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too :'( < 1314265816 963665 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I think I got confused at some point < 1314265819 257909 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine him as a small, skinny, angry fellow. < 1314265825 823611 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thought the conversation was about something it wasn't < 1314265833 182844 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I don't need to imagine that he's an angry fellow. < 1314265835 47474 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then started talking about bad things < 1314265841 265742 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's sort of demonstrated that. < 1314265867 149207 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, misunderstandings can be entertaining at least, and fruitful at best. < 1314265872 985065 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear elliott: disregard everything i said in the preceeding conversation it (the conversation) was stupid and i was confused < 1314265899 262020 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am immune to confusion. < 1314265901 580126 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you just "haha disregard that I suck cocks" yourself? < 1314265908 742486 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to have serialized continuations and also have native code compiling? < 1314265923 42913 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what does that mean < 1314265959 983776 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: depending, I may have < 1314265963 205027 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/disregard-that-i-suck-cocks < 1314265965 895973 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: the serialized continuations would have to be either 1) platform dependent 2) bytecode interpreted seperately from the native code < 1314265984 218533 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1314265989 273344 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, what a weird thought. compiling to both bytecode AND native code and running both simultaneously < 1314266004 701701 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: sure whatever < 1314266006 230438 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo I got erbo'y talkin' 'bout what ah did be talkin' 'bout. < 1314266031 798622 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1314266035 77552 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: It wasn't a good joke but it was a joke and I'm dealing with insomnia. < 1314266040 548396 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: well not simultaneous. Running one or the other when appropriate. < 1314266072 536002 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it could be multi-threaded < 1314266079 48315 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: That's essentially the point of JIT compilation on architectures that otherwise use bytecode. < 1314266088 465974 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as the JVM. < 1314266109 56307 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, that makes much more sense. < 1314266110 820913 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You JIT what you can and bytecode what you have to. < 1314266116 93149 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then threads that can run entirely on native code do so, while threads that need e.g. serialized continuations run on the bytecode version < 1314266118 556509 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :compile to bytecode and JIT compile that. < 1314266128 496809 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think JVM works like that (it never needs to stick to bytecode, it JITs when it detects it needs to) < 1314266161 134167 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I'm not up on it. < 1314266162 588063 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :jit jit jit jit jit < 1314266169 166379 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll jit that in a jiffy < 1314266173 187254 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl sleep < 1314266175 683464 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :as soon as I'm over the jitters < 1314266191 526969 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought compilation to native code was done primarily as an optimisation. < 1314266197 926614 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1314266200 280290 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I'm living in the 90s. < 1314266215 315156 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilation to native code is done because it's hip < 1314266218 3169 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no other reason < 1314266231 43852 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not, y'know, performance or anything like that. < 1314266256 685508 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314266267 311831 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1314266279 848322 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've slowly been realising lately that a language ought to spare no expense when it comes to abstraction, and leave it up to the poor compiler writer to come up with clever optimisations to compensate. < 1314266302 870052 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language: EVERYTHING IS A CONSLIST < 1314266317 364015 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good one < 1314266319 391822 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementor: Ugh, no, dammit, sometimes things are numbers. < 1314266334 554067 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language: I HAVE INFINITE MEMORY < 1314266343 223703 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementor: GC time. < 1314266347 792097 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1314266360 938939 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :> C and fortran are still an order of magnitude faster than any other language < 1314266361 642443 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `of' < 1314266382 851869 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, it took as long as 'of' to realize, hey, this ain't haskell! < 1314266440 94888 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a language I was working on recently, that'd've parsed correctly. < 1314266460 478426 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1314266460 812163 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :would To Kill a Mockingbird be a valid program? < 1314266471 69528 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As ((C) and (fortran are still an order of magnitude faster than)(any (other language))). < 1314266487 522404 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because "and" and "any" are builtins and identifiers can be multi-token. < 1314266487 689220 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1314266523 761237 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it wouldn't've *run*. < 1314266543 939587 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not *magic*. < 1314266561 111723 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"identifiers can be multi-token" wouldn't it be simpler to expand the lexical syntax to make multi-word identifier tokens? < 1314266580 197362 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1314266581 335674 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference? < 1314266583 4071 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1314266589 418486 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is simpler < 1314266591 705292 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1314266600 448122 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sound like the same thing to me............ < 1314266610 241 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them jives with me betterly < 1314266681 891117 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementation-wise, yeah, identifier ::= identifier-part (ws* identifier-part)* < 1314266692 121984 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't want to bother having to stick my tokens together to form identifiers; it strikes me cleaner to have identifiers parsed nicely by the lexer < 1314266716 884959 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who cares about tokens what are those < 1314266747 673905 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The feature is good for readability but bad for expectations. < 1314266771 236869 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if foo bar" is a parse error because "foo bar" is an identifier. < 1314266790 166199 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how I resolved that. < 1314266800 222724 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than "if (foo) bar". < 1314266833 696506 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. Time for sleep. < 1314266852 701644 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if foo then bar? < 1314266883 214170 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :tokens being able to have spaces in them seems like it's just asking for trouble, unless you're doing it to prove something < 1314266945 775328 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was doing it to prove that PotatoDomainInteractionControllerSystem is unreadable. < 1314266953 912434 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is readable < 1314266959 58694 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why would you type it < 1314266960 317824 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1314266960 822648 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1314266971 657160 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's readable enough < 1314266979 344862 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about potato_domain_interaction_controller_system? that's readable as fuc < 1314266986 721274 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where the token begins and ends is embedded into it as a bonus < 1314266998 148236 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :potato-domain-interaction-controller-system is good too < 1314266999 395466 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also to make an intelligently structured language with minimal punctuation. < 1314267045 411387 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by punctuation do you mean "characters like .!~#$%^&*" or what < 1314267060 478825 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define { begin < 1314267062 403180 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define } end < 1314267067 734576 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehehe < 1314267070 700932 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1314267083 161686 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the other way around? maybe? who knows??? < 1314267092 353906 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST LIEK PACSAL :D < 1314267096 108321 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on which way you're going. either way, yes. < 1314267105 257449 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a point which I was planning to make < 1314267108 220410 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :after I got my answer < 1314267124 193637 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, by punctuation I mean "characters like fuck". < 1314267146 681489 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a bit of a strange goal < 1314267152 890535 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, whatever ispunct() says. < 1314267180 744909 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was one of the lesser important goals of that language. < 1314267188 545540 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL has low amounts of symbols < 1314267206 169683 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bluh. Too much redundancy though. < 1314267251 364714 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?1000+digits/leonid+%28alnum%29_1226043321&rb < 1314267265 687916 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the point is that punctuation in a language should be intuitively meaningful, not just arbitrarily or conventionally specified. < 1314267271 769904 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so-called alnum solution < 1314267276 305552 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because keywords are self-evident. < 1314267297 386672 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So punctuation ought to be held as close to that standard as possible. < 1314267342 505971 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :keywords are hardly self-evident < 1314267350 260646 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind punctuation most of the time because it's similar in most languages < 1314267361 584952 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's as much defined by convention as other symbols < 1314267375 606232 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This goes back to the API design argument. < 1314267383 542028 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A keyword should give you a clue as to what it does. < 1314267401 171380 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ gives as much a clue about what it does as "plus" < 1314267409 504582 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :<$> < 1314267412 68300 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps even more < 1314267413 279051 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue < 1314267413 581711 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :self evident the operator < 1314267420 3743 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, but that's an established convention. < 1314267422 905420 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same as English is. < 1314267434 914543 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:16:00 < evincar> I guess the point is that punctuation in a language should be intuitively meaningful, not just arbitrarily or conventionally specified. < 1314267436 564044 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas ++ isn't universally recognised as concatenation. < 1314267438 593403 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what about fortran? < 1314267446 779367 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 95% of its features are new keywords < 1314267453 603612 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you said yourself that it shouldn't just be conventionally specified??? < 1314267457 99422 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: maybe you're tired?? < 1314267468 946963 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right. < 1314267474 184063 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he means, established convention for -everyone- who speaks english < 1314267477 762793 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so + - etc are fine < 1314267484 823989 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :! is not, because what does ! mean? this sentence is really important? < 1314267501 883621 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I should have said was "the convention shouldn't be fully internal to the language: it should have a rational basis elsewhere". < 1314267531 178126 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about when that would only hinder it < 1314267531 251618 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Right. < 1314267544 148658 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you make the break. < 1314267549 153330 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only then. < 1314267583 6713 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in an esolang, that's entitled to happen more often than not. < 1314267589 377555 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But usability is usability. < 1314267610 2202 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got to respect convention and human constraints, whether you like it or not. < 1314267618 368479 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm really leaving now. < 1314267621 676117 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-44-128.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1314267626 551423 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever looked at inform, the scripting language for IFs? < 1314267627 265872 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1314267634 406363 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :inform is written to look as much like english as possible < 1314268145 980808 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you send someone a message such that it bugs them about them the next time they come on < 1314268159 911506 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot < 1314268186 527116 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help tell < 1314268186 598484 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell . When shows activity, tell them . < 1314268225 991270 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell evincar Check out this language, it's meant to be as english-like as possible: http://inform7.com/ < 1314268229 878510 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that? < 1314268235 936691 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a @ or ? in front < 1314268237 154759 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell evincar Check out this language, it's meant to be as english-like as possible: http://inform7.com/ < 1314268237 227376 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1314268368 831695 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :being too much like english is a bad thing imo < 1314268387 318233 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so too in this case < 1314268391 578922 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is ambiguous < 1314268399 634094 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you word your sentence wrong the person you talk to is like 'okay I get what you mean' < 1314268431 790534 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if being like being like english itself isn't a hinderenace enough, it's bound just to end up being confusing constructing sentences that the thing will understand < 1314268506 879216 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it's best to stick to well-established convention when it's not a hinderence, but I think a better rule is simply "don't be stupid" < 1314268542 407239 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(programming language syntax that mimics natural language is stupid) < 1314268586 880822 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an inconsistent mess of symbols instead of making sense when it'd be just as easy to provide an english name is also stupid) < 1314268667 720242 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in between those, it's kind of stupid to turn a simple consistent set of newly-introduced symbols into a mess of english words, especially when they aren't descriptive enough to actually convey more meaning or be more memorable than the symbols without being stupidly verbose) < 1314268679 109376 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :((where by kind of stupid, I mean stupid)) < 1314268715 1495 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((I put this here mostly just so I can tell evincar about it))) < 1314268794 760223 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think about perl syntax? < 1314268803 602227 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a mess < 1314268810 418760 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. best operator < 1314269321 21144 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1314270229 694820 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :../... in a scalar context is indeed the best. < 1314270509 252314 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a ... operator too? < 1314270533 674757 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost but not quite exactly like '..'. < 1314270541 494530 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In list context, it is the same. < 1314270608 177536 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In scalar context, there's a slight difference in whether it tests the right operand on the first time when it becomes true. < 1314270680 238334 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.perl.com/pub/2004/06/18/variables.html wow < 1314270681 898755 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl is crazy lol < 1314270823 951042 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl @a = (1,2,3,4); for (@a) { print "dotdot $_ " if $_==1 .. 'truu'; print "dotdotdot $_ " if $_==1 ... 'truu'; } < 1314270824 283849 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :dotdot 1 dotdotdot 1 dotdotdot 2 < 1314270828 611730 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, a difference. < 1314270878 554691 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dotdot tests the right side also on the round when $_ == 1, and thus becomes false immediately; the dotdotdot doesn't test until $_ = 2. < 1314270971 840086 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wonder about the "'truu'", I just needed something that's always true, except it couldn't be a constant number (e.g. 1) because if it's that, it gets magically automatically turned from 1 to $. == 1. < 1314271145 642819 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1314271183 166202 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://perldoc.perl.org/perlop.html#The-Triple-Dot-Operator < 1314271192 843865 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't talk about its flipflop use < 1314271210 355536 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1314271213 320720 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's talked about udner range operators < 1314271271 916791 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, there's also that use. Though I thought the triple-dot stand-in was something quite new? < 1314271297 826644 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean post-5.10 new here.) < 1314271322 262483 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1314271326 494552 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl doesn't officially have a no-op operator, but the bare constants 0 and 1 are special-cased to not produce a warning in a void context < 1314271335 769204 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like stuff you see in java/C# just because C did it :O) < 1314273509 71299 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1314273512 47086 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1314273524 836521 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :where could I put the 0 in Perl? < 1314273624 380666 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :void context < 1314273735 787815 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 while foo(); < 1314273736 336029 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1314273737 373046 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :0; < 1314273738 447585 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :1; < 1314273779 368692 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314273791 576221 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like having a label at the end of a loop in C and using 0; just because labels need a statement. < 1314273796 63120 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail: 0; < 1314273845 704005 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wanting to have a local variable in a case X: statement, and having to either insert an artificial {block} there, or put a 0; or something after the label. < 1314273878 247468 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly with an artifical block the scope of it won't then extend to the other case statements. < 1314273910 851931 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And makes it C++-legal.) < 1314273934 698120 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :With C89 you need a block too :P < 1314273941 471253 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do just ; < 1314273945 943416 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1314273956 502377 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :if(something) ; else blah blah; < 1314274004 366360 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh no, {;} < 1314274020 464563 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember playing with this < 1314274061 843194 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, ; works. < 1314274078 947913 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314274079 635738 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But label:; reads like shit :) < 1314274124 913988 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grammar-wise the ";" is an expression statement, only the expression is optional. < 1314274169 331500 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly more often seen in for/while than elsewhere. < 1314274218 613299 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What also would look real stupid is "do ; while (whatever);" < 1314274241 556381 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the idea that it looks stupid arbitrary or based on polling? < 1314274244 600855 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314274260 823997 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Do a sea monster while whatever." < 1314274263 270142 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1314274281 283909 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote "Do a sea monster while whatever." < 1314274286 758946 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I doing it right < 1314274286 957412 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :624) "Do a sea monster while whatever." < 1314274294 463362 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, for some values of "right". < 1314274301 512382 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so right is an array? < 1314274321 885319 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a dict < 1314274334 341752 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No, *you're* the dick!" < 1314274338 14403 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1314274578 280989 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314274642 285254 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the word "do" redundant for a pc? :D < 1314274797 522847 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :introducing the new keyword, dont < 1314274813 564263 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :infuriating grammar pedants with its lack of apostrophe < 1314275416 425669 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont { printf("blah\n"); } while (i > 5); < 1314275510 847488 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :nou, ya' a dick, ya' the biggest dick in all of canada < 1314277028 728559 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :rezzo crashes for /no freaking reason/ on Mac ... < 1314277039 899171 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It crashes while allocating the SDL window. < 1314277073 635179 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like SDL says "I need a window this size" and the Mac goes "NOT PRETTY ENOUGH" and barfs all over you. < 1314277315 906078 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO: I decided before uninstalling MacPorts, I should update it (I don't know why) < 1314277319 573573 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's taking FOREVER to update >_< < 1314279262 336981 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took a day or two when I last booted the iBook and told it to update MacPorts, and I don't even have really much of anything installed from there. < 1314279412 767958 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn GDT < 1314279449 399257 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The global descriptor table? < 1314279537 248464 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1314279620 783161 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314279683 66505 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoyfaznrzolenyyo QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1314279689 953302 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqidbynhzibetlfu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314279924 273963 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1314279926 233789 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 81 * 7 * 4 < 1314279926 893803 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2268 < 1314279931 993556 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20! < 1314279945 706142 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aesthetic Disgrace Error E9504 < 1314279961 83231 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please see your Graphic Designer. < 1314279999 196143 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :(recycling someone elses joke) < 1314280022 402533 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A typo has created the greatest forename ever: Weclome. < 1314280034 369556 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or middle name! < 1314280062 827171 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mordechai Weclome Birkenstein < 1314280072 131113 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even surname! < 1314280075 474702 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mordechai Weclome-Birkenstein < 1314280085 285447 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's like SDL says "I need a window this size" and the Mac goes "NOT PRETTY ENOUGH" and barfs all over you. < 1314280127 65471 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :> product [] < 1314280127 746560 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 < 1314280131 825249 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, perhaps the most Jewish name? < 1314280149 962577 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although Weclome really looks English to me. < 1314280158 750704 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that joke has so much potential... oy vey < 1314280163 60073 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Idonno, it sounds hyperisraeli to me. < 1314280164 14005 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the SDL one < 1314280185 149521 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, it actually crashes in the middle of Aqua garbage. < 1314280198 916712 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not SDL that crashes, it's the Aqua/Cocoa/whateverTF libraries. < 1314280215 777921 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come? < 1314280258 742999 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error "The ratio of your window's width to it's height is not expressible as a ratio of numbers less than 20" < 1314280289 213109 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-?? < 1314280374 304169 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your background color is atrocious. Your fontfaces are outdated, and your borders look like children's scribbles. < 1314280456 316126 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now get your ugly yeller keister offa my property while (i > 0) i--; < 1314280485 2611 :GuestIceKovu!x@ANantes-259-1-205-183.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1314280514 53220 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: It's 1:1 :P < 1314280523 384156 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION barfs. < 1314280525 774031 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-215-108.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1314280661 909449 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whatever reason regular polygons are ugly in computer interfaces < 1314280680 903320 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a polygon can be irregular < 1314280684 210193 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need at least four vertices for that < 1314280740 216964 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1314280880 789430 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case we humans like our rectangles < 1314280892 136589 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqidbynhzibetlfu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1314280943 649629 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: have you ever heard of the game N? < 1314281028 599314 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1314281045 664856 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either way, I have been reading their blog today. It seems that after the success of N they have spent 4 years trying to make a 2d robot simulator. Poor things. < 1314281156 457697 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-08-25 10:06:47.642 rezzo[21005:10b] *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInternalInconsistencyException', reason: 'Error (1002) creating CGSWindow' < 1314281156 859293 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqidbynhzibetlfu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314281159 990326 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF, mac < 1314281217 818411 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because steve jobs resigned < 1314281225 249224 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Error+(1002)+creating+CGSWindow < 1314281337 525626 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ArghSDLmain < 1314281435 679566 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may just mean i'm lazy, but my planned design for a virtual machine is basically to wrap high level function calls to a bytecode < 1314281460 468811 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :having said this.... some languages on the wiki do the same thing :D < 1314281476 985091 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that how jvm works? before it started jitting < 1314281477 584364 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not a bytecode but tokens or whatever < 1314281485 787040 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1314281673 685935 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think in the long run linux will be a safest bet < 1314281692 409038 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows has evidently no interest in backwards compatability < 1314281743 364453 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1314281760 500294 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1314281770 320471 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ms platforms gradually dying off.. dos.. win3.11 .. win95.. win98.. visual basic 6 runtimes.. etc etc etc < 1314281784 733016 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas Linux binaries from four years ago won't run :P < 1314281792 609894 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh darn < 1314281796 190325 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not good < 1314281802 980413 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Depending on how you made them) < 1314281808 671146 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1314281814 309068 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Linux has an abysmal track record for backwards-compatibility (though it's getting better) < 1314281828 13201 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in fact, it's not Linux. < 1314281831 244774 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has a great track record. < 1314281834 332683 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the GNU userland. < 1314281841 947324 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1314281846 153665 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more reason for virtual machines < 1314281857 597596 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux 3 can run binaries made with libc4 for Linux 2 :) < 1314281861 205196 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.0) < 1314281869 146302 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you know the actual machine is going to be extinct... rely on vm < 1314281873 918713 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh < 1314282002 48886 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the best games are built ontop of VM's. < 1314282016 751833 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when the machine that runs the VM is extinct ... run it in a VM! < 1314282224 808362 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the creators of N have shown that even they can fall prey to the siren's call of overengineering. < 1314282461 516690 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought(verb1) I was(verb2) clever by thinking(verb3) of creating(verb4) a skeletal animation system with no actual game in mind for it. However they spent like 4 years mucking around with one and they're not even close to having an actual game. < 1314282486 652048 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :skeletal animation system, aka adobe flash < 1314282488 66494 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1314282506 618282 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhmm < 1314282545 51434 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I not right? < 1314282547 776138 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno... they seemed to resist using common terminology such as "bone" as if it would reduce the signifigance of their work somehow. < 1314282653 367986 :itidus20!~itidus20@CPE-60-224-1-106.srql1.win.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :another case of aimless r&d (they are quite happy to call the work they're doing r&d) under the guise of game development < 1314282672 208911 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of game design ... Rezzo! :P < 1314282677 289124 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lololobsessed < 1314283185 101697 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1314283508 409508 :caddyshack!~zool@f053003192.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1314283656 812246 :caddyshack!~zool@f053003192.adsl.alicedsl.de PART #esoteric :"Ex-Chat" < 1314284633 28163 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314284894 728295 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314284948 149046 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1314285213 136049 :augur_!~augur@128-8-211-232.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314285222 135703 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1314285282 995542 :augur__!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314285322 756631 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1314285485 178343 :augur_!~augur@128-8-211-232.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1314285538 443423 :augur__!~augur@129.2.129.32 NICK :augur < 1314285608 346152 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314285620 455383 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1314285886 449776 :Taneb|Kindle!57ee5441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.238.84.65 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314285963 393920 :GuestIceKovu!x@ANantes-259-1-205-183.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr NICK :Slereah < 1314288245 10560 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1314291096 329790 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314292408 494662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1314292549 348343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really like it when new people in here get to talk to zzo < 1314292583 729598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:32:44: Most of the ugly stuff (like glBegin()/glEnd()) has been removed from OpenGL < 1314292598 480765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by ugly you mean not ugly, and by removed you mean now you get to write a shader for everything < 1314293041 985423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern. < 1314293047 424821 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :625) The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern. < 1314293072 407521 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh come on, not everything I say about DF is quotable. < 1314293080 871213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Except that it is. < 1314293088 884525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, "* Phantom_Hoover makes SO MUCH SOAP" wasn't. < 1314293090 65924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that was. < 1314293131 271207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is < 1314293133 575357 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :626) But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is < 1314293161 212476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 625 < 1314293164 68398 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* < 1314293198 181658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern. < 1314293200 104353 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :626) The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern. < 1314293208 297253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 625 < 1314293211 125523 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :625) But I mean, why fix it if it ain't broke? Except now it is < 1314293215 242809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1314293325 310553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:07:11: cheater: No, explicit migration wouldn't be necessary if the continuations were genuinely forward-compatible. < 1314293325 477219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I too want a magic language that anticipates all future changes to my program < 1314293537 749774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:17:27: because it will be the first version and it will suck < 1314293537 858568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:17:38: ell comes from elliott which sucks too < 1314293537 858732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad to know I'm always in your thoughts, hope you find someone more interesting to obsess about one day < 1314293563 687978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really like how cheater went from "this is completely impossible" to "let's all design a language that does this and also has an AST editor which will somehow make this work" in about five seconds < 1314293899 106731 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1314294180 791998 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how you are too stupid to understand what people say < 1314294328 792581 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, shut up. < 1314294347 364138 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1314294377 597901 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :no u < 1314294458 506280 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ood < 1314294463 367949 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ood. < 1314294467 832912 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :good. < 1314294476 603153 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :layouts r a bitch < 1314294545 356942 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1314295597 504326 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1314297824 41953 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/6kfwTsB0 < 1314298511 410036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314299837 969519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha at Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic < 1314299860 925038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most ingenious 2D BF derivative I've seen at all recently < 1314299873 752952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hello world is pretty < 1314299879 892279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a two-dimensional CA trace < 1314299894 395960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one wonders what @outtext does, though < 1314299934 130449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably some I/O extension < 1314300438 294731 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :TraderJoe < 1314300439 378163 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of curiosity, can you 'nickserv ghost' the connection you're sending the request from? < 1314300449 310565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try on a second nick < 1314300480 857354 :ais523_!~ais523_@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314300491 504479 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAW >>> :NickServ!NickServ@services. NOTICE fungot :You may not ghost yourself. <<< < 1314300491 576667 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: seriously if in future. tml i wake up long < 1314300493 356733 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1314300507 541321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::NickServ!NickServ@services. NOTICE ais523_ :You may not ghost yourself. < 1314300511 78899 :ais523_!~ais523_@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1314300524 848551 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1314300527 264513 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Alternative question: using the bot to test that: unethical, or just impolite?) < 1314300532 964715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's fungot's password? < 1314300533 131596 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: am i that much bad. take mno practice... i ll " comeoff" sardar:-behan di taki or tu sochti hai k mai roz ash said... ' today its me... because i m quite free these days la < 1314300535 759565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's unethical < 1314300545 572356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it actually uses an SSH key < 1314300549 208037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has trouble remembering passwords < 1314300552 340496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1314300783 529373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \e -> eventQ eventKeyName e == "q" && Control `elem` eventQ eventModifier q < 1314300783 620013 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(&& Control `elem` eventQ eventModifier q) . ("q" ==) . eventQ eventKeyName < 1314300788 301159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gross < 1314300791 258584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1314300792 459047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \e -> eventQ eventKeyName e == "q" && Control `elem` eventQ eventModifier e < 1314300792 547063 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ap ((&&) . ("q" ==) . eventQ eventKeyName) ((Control `elem`) . eventQ eventModifier) < 1314300795 772703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :grosser < 1314300813 325720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::liftA2 (&&) < 1314300814 404338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t liftA2 (&&) < 1314300815 39487 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => f Bool -> f Bool -> f Bool < 1314300832 341433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t liftA2 (&&) ((== "q") . eventQ eventKeyName) (elem Control . eventQ eventModifier) < 1314300832 981002 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `eventQ' < 1314300833 53208 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `eventKeyName' < 1314300833 53394 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `eventQ' < 1314300836 521260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good enough < 1314300843 807436 :TraderJoe!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1314301596 42677 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: FireFly < 1314301806 511211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?undo \e -> do x <- eventQ eventKeyName e; y <- eventQ eventModifier e; return (x == "q") && elem Control y < 1314301806 583676 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ e -> eventQ eventKeyName e >>= \ x -> eventQ eventModifier e >>= \ y -> return (x == "q") && elem Control y < 1314301808 143262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?. pl undo \e -> do x <- eventQ eventKeyName e; y <- eventQ eventModifier e; return (x == "q") && elem Control y < 1314301808 285938 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ap ((>>=) . eventQ eventKeyName) ((. ((. elem Control) . (&&) . return . ("q" ==))) . (>>=) . eventQ eventModifier) < 1314301810 737109 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gross < 1314302406 149035 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314302557 79045 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1314302604 640932 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqidbynhzibetlfu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314303129 637206 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : ?undo \e -> do x <- eventQ eventKeyName e; y <- eventQ eventModifier e; return (x == "q") && elem Control y < 1314303217 517050 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314303229 56427 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1314303241 115624 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, i think you are missing $ after return < 1314303308 219377 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :\e -> liftM2 (&&) ((== "q") <$> eventQ eventKeyName e) (elem Control <$> eventQ eventModifier e) < 1314303422 659294 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you people not contain elliott < 1314303429 485865 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :now he is invading other irc channels < 1314303441 509373 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1314303443 586870 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1314303444 33460 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you have a responsibility for your pets < 1314303535 821837 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-14.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets just try and keep ourselves from making the whole irc network fall victim < 1314303542 807345 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1314303542 887997 NAMES :#esoteric < 1314303557 453302 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric +b :*!*ubuntu@*.vodafone-net.de > 1314303557 475796 NAMES :#esoteric < 1314303557 526265 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric cheater :Even I have my limits < 1314303565 66555 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fina < 1314303566 481666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking < 1314303566 815051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lly < 1314303577 837261 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1314303577 859564 NAMES :#esoteric < 1314303578 453212 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh boy I'm going to learn a little Visual Basic. < 1314303629 514605 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone on Facebook asked if I knew "vba" < 1314303640 793887 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, now I get to learn it to help them with something. weeeeee < 1314303655 552959 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friendship ban. < 1314303669 585803 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I'm not a language zealot. < 1314303679 355591 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my goal is to become slightly familiar with all of them at some point. < 1314303691 984570 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :enough to program well in each. < 1314303694 936688 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1314303698 149036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them < 1314303698 608770 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's "all of them" < 1314303702 325684 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them. < 1314303705 905153 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1314303707 623109 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you serious < 1314303712 155495 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya dude < 1314303717 273520 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> see this face? < 1314303720 524412 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the face of seriousness. < 1314303730 959366 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, are you Sgeo's idiot girlfriend. < 1314303736 425067 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :> < 1314303755 46432 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're totally not like a thing or anything. < 1314303776 217454 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you a penguin. < 1314303804 25020 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, no. < 1314303824 476473 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does any of this have to do with me learning "all of the languages" < 1314303834 269071 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> < 1314303846 250667 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I point out that I do not, and have never had, a girlfriend? < 1314303846 441132 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:3 < 1314303853 416228 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no need. < 1314303856 257561 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo's idiot boyfriend < 1314303896 429167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friendship idiot. < 1314303945 415003 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor a boyfriend, and I have little-to-no interest in men in that way < 1314303980 416461 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, you shouldn't have done so < 1314304019 651734 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I really mean is "learn as many languages as possible." I just do this thing with English where I don't always mean what I literally say. < 1314304163 848050 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only like interesting/good languages < 1314304184 8463 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :other languages are boring/bad < 1314304216 34030 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't know for sure until I write code in it. Then I have a better understanding of what I would use for. < 1314304242 54605 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I feel that some truly bad languages have a few decent ideas, and that these could be incorporated into new languages. < 1314304251 792510 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a way for me to learn about all of these things in practice. < 1314304286 323795 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt I'll find anything worthwhile in VB though... < 1314304330 784215 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, one more skill. programming is like RPGs right? < 1314304350 244438 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in that it involves lots of grinding. < 1314304363 713759 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ooh, I leveled up my semicolon skill." < 1314304397 924170 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :character sheet = resume < 1314304412 325405 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a resume is like... an abridged character sheet. < 1314304472 230870 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i would like my profession to be in doing visual basic < 1314304523 168574 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = return (error "hi" :: Int) < 1314304532 11952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot? < 1314304534 676226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print 99 >> return (error "hi" :: Int) < 1314304539 917869 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 < 1314304612 18146 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I would never get a job programming VB < 1314304637 830218 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, with freelancing, it allows me to program VB for a short period of time and make money off of the skill, while not getting burnt out. < 1314304668 83754 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don;t want to touch things I dislike < 1314304669 889616 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has yet to find any Haskell jobs out there, but would like to. < 1314304680 488196 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I see. < 1314304720 760371 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did find a SBCL job once. < 1314304803 343894 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick a hookah flavor for me #esoteric: gingerbread, mint chocolate chip, pumpkin spice, or lucky (vaguely tastes like some kind of fruity/sour gum) < 1314304834 650854 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRNG = cheating < 1314304844 413052 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the rules. < 1314304966 846344 :iamcal!u1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jmgutnotemtzxwyo JOIN :#esoteric < 1314305003 632120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Gingerbread... I... < 1314305022 48899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Is "all at once" an option. < 1314305026 584839 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1314305030 272198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: All at once. < 1314305031 916179 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'd probably exclude lucky. < 1314305039 15693 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, all the drugs. < 1314305048 714299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. < 1314305050 306183 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :gingerbread and mint chocolate chip would probably be amazing though. < 1314305058 668871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: so my FRP Gtk stuff is going well... < 1314305111 287310 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how can you resist a drug that tastes like freshly baked cookies? < 1314305128 113226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://sprunge.us/jBMg................ < 1314305161 424430 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: yu mean christmas coffee? < 1314305206 927174 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I don't know what that is. < 1314305207 456937 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sourceLanguageManagerGetDefault good names < 1314305214 923852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: that's oop for you < 1314305240 644016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: now I am going to do a good thing (make Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E move the cursor to the beginning/end of the line rather than selecting all and doing nothing respectively) < 1314305295 49884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip fmap < 1314305295 717072 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1314305299 366154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle flip fmap < 1314305299 460212 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1314305302 360871 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how will you select every thing... < 1314305306 392022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle hi a nice operator for flip fmap or something please < 1314305306 574159 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1314305317 182344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ctrl+shift+a i guess???????? that is less important than cursor movesments < 1314305328 153659 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: have you not used Ctrl+A/Ctrl+E do you not know...the power < 1314305345 11056 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually use vim because i am a bad person.... < 1314305353 250037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: do you ever use a shell < 1314305356 171175 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I read about this nifty thing in Haskell once that lets you associate a name to another expression. < 1314305359 440336 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what it is though < 1314305365 48603 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you use your shell in vikeys mode i laugh) < 1314305372 964925 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: pamf is not a good name < 1314305377 977997 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never used ^A or ^E in shelle < 1314305387 969407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: do so it will make you happey < 1314305390 182123 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :man. i would probably like a vi'd shell < 1314305391 22529 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in vim i'm used to $ and ^ < 1314305402 211465 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle (|>) < 1314305402 323825 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Sequence (|>) :: Seq a -> a -> Seq a < 1314305402 396780 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative (<|>) :: Alternative f => f a -> f a -> f a < 1314305402 396931 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Parsec.Prim (<|>) :: Monad m => ParsecT s u m a -> ParsecT s u m a -> ParsecT s u m a < 1314305420 251945 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: just use some hilarious operator. < 1314305427 474722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: you acn do it < 1314305431 690380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: its bad though < 1314305441 247724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: set -o vi < 1314305441 988246 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :why bad? < 1314305442 621287 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use cents instead of dollars? < 1314305507 891872 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pamf = "pretty awesome motherfucker" < 1314305509 769594 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :vi uses only regular qwerty keys for most everything. thus my terminal would be super portable (since mobile keyboards arent gud at specialty keys) < 1314305549 2210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: so do it < 1314305549 862837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :set -o vi < 1314305565 683263 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will maybe later < 1314305593 633778 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!wacro < 1314305596 686662 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICAVS < 1314305600 820265 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle (<**>) < 1314305600 909618 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b < 1314305616 163159 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :<$$> < 1314305623 253404 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for flip fmap < 1314305627 941416 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going by that terminologogy. < 1314305636 564141 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :get moar $$$$$ < 1314305651 105660 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1314305654 560370 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :International Climbing And Vertical Society < 1314305659 134764 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi monqy < 1314305661 923433 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!wacro < 1314305662 620540 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSDL < 1314305675 283891 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :solid state device language? < 1314305681 775654 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super Standard Development Library? < 1314305702 989744 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexy software description language < 1314305709 926485 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am still displeased with the amount of garbage acronyms it produces. < 1314305716 87606 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :International Conference for Angels, Vampires and Snakes. (For ICAVS, obvs.) < 1314305738 747956 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!wacro < 1314305740 162550 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :TFAW < 1314305753 262483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : @hoogle (<**>) < 1314305753 424999 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b < 1314305756 181486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Not the same thing. < 1314305758 622624 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :JOCKS is the latest one i've seen that i like (Journal Of Cave and Karst Sciences) < 1314305761 921557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That isn't a flip, the effects are reversed < 1314305832 797022 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [1,2,3] <**> [1,2,3] <**> return (,) < 1314305833 519019 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (b -> (a, b)) < 1314305833 591842 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use... < 1314305841 816286 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?source (<**>) < 1314305841 889088 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(<**>) not available < 1314305845 102513 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1314305845 268590 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You must find a large dataset of acronyms, and then learn letter bigram frequencies from that, and then go on from there. < 1314305858 917067 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?source <**> < 1314305858 999762 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :<**> not available < 1314305861 706126 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1314305891 499052 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well the next generator was going to produce weighted acronyms that are vaguely pronouncable by using a markov chain. < 1314305918 871195 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just going to keep this one for the non-pronouncable variety, though maybe I could improve that as well I just don't know where I'd find helpful data for that thing. < 1314305924 628406 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt there are many patterns in acronyms, other than a disproportionate number containing S, ending in A and starting with N, I, or J < 1314305933 549442 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a better data source than /usr/share/dict/words is probably a start. < 1314306080 954451 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: the markov chain one would alternate between consonant and vowel more or less, with each consonant/vowel using the same weighting scheme as in wacro, but with the added possibility of some double consonants/vowels for example SH, TH, GH, PF, FN, EE, EA, EO, actually I'd imagine there's a large variety of double vowels you could use. < 1314306092 824495 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'd have them rare enough so that they don't litter the acronyms. < 1314306170 242915 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :for longer words, you may want to calculate trigram frequencies. i know that takes a lot more space to store, but it would save you some special casing for double letters like that < 1314306224 673668 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :trigram? < 1314306243 6285 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three-letter sequence, in this case. < 1314306250 786076 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :double consosnant + vowel, double vowel + consonant < 1314306256 575111 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I know what you mean, but why? < 1314306286 356092 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The longer context, the more actual acronym data you need for frequency estimation, assuming no smoothing or interpolation. (Also assuming you're doing it machine-learning style, "find a pile of data, make a model", instead of manually writing some sort of sense-making rules.) < 1314306311 104697 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :because english has rs and st and th but you never see rsth :P < 1314306320 37971 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I wasn't planning on finding more data because I don't really know where I would find that sort of thing for this. < 1314306334 36955 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: the consonant/vowel alternation would prevent that < 1314306336 795962 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :dict/words is sufficient for that < 1314306353 397647 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: but enforcing that requires more code < 1314306361 84276 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, just a markov chain. < 1314306380 547657 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :more effort anyway < 1314306383 985989 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes. < 1314306386 608655 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :id just let the data speak < 1314306400 696016 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to try this one first. < 1314306403 376789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a markov chain will just produce text unless you run it on an acronym database. < 1314306420 346606 :boily!~boily@209.145.234.191 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314306423 77461 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then maybe pull some more stats from data. < 1314306501 842101 :hagb4rd!4db40915@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.180.9.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1314306513 409975 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the markov chain would give the probabilities for what the next character will be. it will be set up to alternate consonants and vowels. < 1314306527 159565 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words it will not be possible to go to every state from every state. < 1314306601 949148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's just stupid. < 1314306607 798265 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will work though. < 1314306630 239626 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU WILL SEE. < 1314306670 910797 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1314306705 103106 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do the same thing with a PCFG and the rules might be vaguely more sense-making, possibly. (If you insist of having Expert Knowledge(tm) of acronyms in there.) < 1314306753 593296 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the letter frequency weighting is enough for me, I think. We'll see. < 1314306808 372234 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah maybe a hidden markov model would simplify the number of state transitions. < 1314306829 943469 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure. I have other stuff to work on first though so I'm going to do this later. < 1314306839 461543 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly, if you make it have a lower amount of hidden states. < 1314306900 213102 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, a strictly-alternating two-state ('consonant', 'wovel') HMM is going to have exactly [1 0; 0 1] as the transition probabilities, and then you don't even need to assign any. < 1314306932 647557 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for vowel, one for consonant, perhaps. some letters/bigrams will probably end up being special cases that have different transition probabilities. < 1314307028 886333 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just so it doesn't produce quite so many alien-sounding words. < 1314307140 573338 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just stick exceptional two-letter combinations as rare-but-possible emission probabilities there. But the HMM output in the consonant state will be completely independent from what it emitted in the vowel state, so there's no sort of context there. < 1314307320 92276 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not entirely sure I'll need context, unless I want the words to sound vaguely English-esque < 1314307392 114354 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the hidden markov chain is a pretty flexible model that could be fine-tuned later. < 1314307400 272270 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about PCFG < 1314307423 862387 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems well-suited. < 1314307486 214930 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see how it works. it's just a list of production rules with assigned probabilities < 1314307614 183601 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. The grammar might end up looking a bit funky if you want generic-enough output out of it. E.g. to generate any wovel-consonant-alternating sequence you might need something like "S -> SVC | SCV; SVC -> V C SVC | V C | V; SCV -> C V SCV | C V | C; C -> [something Consonantlike]; V -> [something woVellike]". < 1314307708 168963 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the length is going to be either given by the user, or randomly generated beforehand by a user-given range or by the default range < 1314307750 416464 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: give me something wovel-like pls < 1314307751 508169 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :same input parameters as wacro < 1314307862 620997 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah I think the hidden markov model will be more flexible, or at least easier to make flexible. < 1314307864 878346 :hagb4rd!4db40915@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.180.9.21 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314307877 79515 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I can always just add more hidden states. < 1314307911 823087 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure a predefined length and a PCFG will work so well. Also unless I'm mistaken, something as simple as that up there can only give you random lengths out of a(ny) exponential distribution, which might not be what you want. < 1314307952 93969 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the same thing as with a HMM, the duration of staying in a particular state is always an exponential distribution, unless you go for some sort of hidden semi-Markov model. < 1314308040 131226 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the latter thing. < 1314308044 842118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would an object-capability model be expanded to a pure-FP language like Haskell? < 1314308047 266426 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our Finnish speech thing smooshes separate Gamma distributions to HMM states, because the phoneme duration matters more here than in English. (It often distinguishes between different-meaning words.) < 1314308047 392211 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I control the transitions and stop them whenever I want. < 1314308049 349228 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you can terminate the run at any point < 1314308086 523453 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :while length $outputstring < $inpLength < 1314308093 261474 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :runMarkChain < 1314308098 571538 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Markov < 1314308108 958596 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Is this still re PCFG, or not? I mean, it's not really a PCFG production if you truncate it; but of course that's certainly possible. < 1314308169 112088 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make a markov model that self terminates at a prescribed length too, though truncating seems easier < 1314308202 115934 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah my markov chain would not worry about terminating at all. < 1314308235 472336 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, but that's not related at all to what I said about HMM state durations. I was talking about the length of time (number of steps) it spends in a particular hidden state, which will always be random from an exponential distribution, unless you explicitly alter the transition probabilities based on the time spent there, at which point it is no longer a Markov model at all. < 1314308236 945758 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would just run the transitions until the output string matched the correct length. But I will need to somehow make it impossible for a double consonant to occur at the end. < 1314308252 855787 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess I could just truncate the double consonant. I'm not sure how that would effect the output word. < 1314308281 347171 :variable!~thing@unaffiliated/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1314308329 382900 :boily!~boily@209.145.234.191 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1314308370 36702 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call a time-dependent markov thing? < 1314308379 227635 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as you can see from conversations regarding Rezzo, I have absolutely no issue with hacking a formal model to suit my needs. < 1314308388 529141 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I wasn't aware time was involved. < 1314308397 45806 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hidden semi-Markov model, usually. < 1314308402 463447 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1314308422 200272 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In your case time == number of letters. < 1314308428 127027 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily. < 1314308431 868390 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well yes < 1314308476 9448 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :HSMM's are problematical when it comes to learning one from data, though sampling from one (if you write the probabilities by yourself) is of course just as easy as from a HMM. < 1314308512 420448 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess truncation would be fine actually. Though it does slightly mess up the weight distribution. S will have more weight at the last transition because SH = S at that point < 1314308591 91167 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also truncating double vowels at the ends of words would probably result in some strange results. < 1314308598 254024 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still think you're overcomplicating it. learning a straight HMM from a dictionary is far easier than handcoding transitions < 1314308622 672430 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that an exponential duration would necessarily be a bad thing. If you make a consonant/vowel two-state thing and give it a small but nonzero self-transition probability, you'll get alternating consonats and vowels, except occasionally but very rarely double-consonants or double-vowels. (But I guess you want to give different weights for different double-consonants.) < 1314308634 551055 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that I have no idea how to make a program "learn" a HMM < 1314308643 317551 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You use an existing library, of course. :p < 1314308672 724824 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you just scan the document for trigrams, through them into a hashtable, count frequencies < 1314308688 622480 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then covert those frequencies to probabilities in the obvious way < 1314308733 174202 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't really understand why I would look for trigrams. < 1314308758 984774 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont have to, but it would better match english if you did < 1314308783 771336 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting transition probabilities "in the obvious way" won't give you the maximum-likelihood HMM, like "real" HMM learning (with Baum-Welch) would. < 1314308851 573729 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but its easy :P < 1314308870 398096 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess it would for a strictly alternating consonant-vowel-thing, since there's always only one state where you could be. < 1314308903 995247 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhoo. I'm a machine-learning person, my viewpoint is obviously biased. < 1314308943 42913 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(We dislike actually having any knowledge about anything.) < 1314308967 597543 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you work on unsupervised models? < 1314309011 442235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: < 1314309011 609127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. < 1314309011 774787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What are you doing?", asked Minsky. < 1314309011 847349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied. < 1314309011 847505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. < 1314309012 814754 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said. < 1314309014 178579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minsky then shut his eyes. < 1314309016 643905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. < 1314309020 675161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So that the room will be empty." < 1314309021 167548 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also I'm curious as to why you banned cheater. < 1314309022 562244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At that moment, Sussman was enlightened. < 1314309023 815647 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :passive aggression? < 1314309024 685557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Couldn't resist. < 1314309035 806574 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love that story < 1314309047 525358 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywayz --> < 1314309121 358575 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ketchup + mayo = the perfect condiment < 1314309134 969288 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful for making other perfect condiments < 1314309142 282342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: well, he _was_ harassing me in another unrelated channel for joining it and then came here to complain about it... < 1314309144 997319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't speak for oerjan. < 1314309150 668660 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1314309162 729195 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :from my vantage point it sounded like he was just being somewhat passive aggressive towards you. < 1314309189 192742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it passive if you're not actually being passive about it? < 1314309237 190406 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I suppose in a chatroom verbal aggression is actual aggression. < 1314309245 148091 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314309264 150741 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can possibly reveal that my official op-opinion was (posthumously) polled regarding this unfortunate matter, but of course all this was done in camera, and I simply cannot comment in any more detailed way. < 1314309379 43877 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically an indirect verbal aggression in other contexts is known as passive aggression though. < 1314309427 514180 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"At least I'M not being passive aggressive like SOME people." < 1314309492 387776 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-67-38.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1314309492 512604 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-67-38.telstraclear.net QUIT :Changing host < 1314309492 584849 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1314309533 947754 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have probably used some kind of parsing library for parsing this scripting language. < 1314309536 950020 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of hardcoding it. < 1314309542 94401 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well. < 1314309817 658830 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@81-233-163-248-no84.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1314310582 826253 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 years ago today. "I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." — Linus < 1314310618 961473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, happy birthday freax < 1314310631 820942 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, "professional like gnu" < 1314310683 267991 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, at that point in time GNU was going to be released "any time now". < 1314310705 600149 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HURD had only been around for about a year. < 1314310725 75242 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it was completely and utterly understandable that it was a pile of dog shit at the time. :P < 1314310811 818266 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many architectures does Linux run on now? < 1314310812 458476 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1314310847 503640 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1314310854 607524 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1314310860 998880 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :three, or maybe even more! < 1314310909 990168 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the kernel? I'm counting 24 ISAs. < 1314310925 721884 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And UML. < 1314310952 318161 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux can run on diagrams? < 1314310968 516949 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but Linux can run on Linux. < 1314310984 137793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* EgoBot (foobar@codu.org) has joined #esotericg < 1314310986 824755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: foobar < 1314311000 663548 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Baf. < 1314311003 517570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wat < 1314311024 78520 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: fun it up a bit < 1314311024 237707 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: k. i bring the mini project. and course i wait for u. borrowing chem lab. u? phone dead yet, just asking becoz i also didn't go andthere wasn't lec proper with little space for the fart to release...prrrrrrrrr...... < 1314311067 679926 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how low the bot has gone: now it's telling fart jokes. < 1314311126 724898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1314311126 796744 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms* speeches ss wp youtube < 1314311141 359258 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did you ever do anything with those Google n-grams because you SHOULD. < 1314311210 757073 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just me, or does RMS look like he's... uh, been chemically inspired, in that cover photo of Free as in Freedom (also first photo in Wikipedia "Linux" article)? < 1314311247 499258 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just you < 1314311271 470343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RMS is actually in Birmingham today < 1314311279 219646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was giving a talk at my University, but I didn't visit it < 1314311307 213156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was on a subject where RMS' opinion was completely predictable < 1314311348 550164 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably one of his canned speeches that he's been given for the better part of 20 years now, anyways. < 1314311359 6572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what subject? < 1314311359 80228 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/given/giving/ < 1314311427 772567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Copyright vs Community in the Age of Computer Networks" < 1314311497 207760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the abstract is pretty much "copyright is bad and it's getting worse, go get rid of it" < 1314311529 275134 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not unreasonable, but utterly predictable from him. :) < 1314311574 962337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1314311580 850407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there was no need to actually attend the talk < 1314311739 598313 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1314311752 598759 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is officially the proud owner of a Dave record T-shirt < 1314311783 990262 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was obscenely overpriced. < 1314313840 757088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed. < 1314313846 649644 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :627) I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed. < 1314313877 449198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gobject is really annoying. < 1314313920 9518 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gobsmacking < 1314314056 266084 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the trigram approach would be more effective. < 1314314057 66153 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1314314070 216429 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... how do you count trigrams? gob|sma|cki|ng < 1314314077 944355 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it be more like gob|sma|ck|ing < 1314314109 727960 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1314314111 74808 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1314314276 517448 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ^^^^^ < 1314314324 960582 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I realized currently the markov model doesn't allow for compound wording such as gobsmacking where there are three consonants in a row. < 1314314414 110611 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOBSMACK < 1314314417 528851 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1314314425 402272 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I know. < 1314314495 183728 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I could analyze each word using multiple different approaches. so gobsmacking would become gob sma cki ng, go bsm ack ing, gob sm ack ing, etc < 1314314609 516418 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I could find the most frequent trigrams and then pick the trigram combination for each word where the sum of its trigram frequencies is the greatest, and then only use that one for the final frequency result. < 1314314636 423444 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then ??? PROFIT? < 1314314655 558384 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1314314657 924873 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also maybe take into account positioning. For example "ck" is more likely to occur at the end of a word. < 1314314684 626273 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is "ing" < 1314314742 656182 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way ck would occur elsewhere is if it's a compound word of some kind, I think. < 1314314765 362991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ingratitude < 1314314776 700163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of a word starting ck, though < 1314314817 138214 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right... since "ingratitude" would be in my dictionary data most likely, ing at the start could be a possibility. < 1314314843 937781 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main issue I'm having is how to decide how to split up words into n-grams < 1314314908 98816 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe just accounting for every possible combination would be the best approach.. < 1314314912 327625 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. < 1314315064 856050 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i may be wrong, but i had the impression that trigrams used for building markov models like this would be overlapping, so gob, obs, bsm, sma, mac, ack, cki, kin, ing < 1314315076 430261 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay. < 1314315097 454606 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the first two letters to predict the third < 1314315115 912428 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the same impression as oerjan < 1314315138 932285 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a new area for me so I didn't really know how it worked. < 1314315172 473320 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're not plugging in the trigrams themselves just using them to determine individual characters based on previous characters. < 1314315210 316028 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, stochastically determine < 1314315247 604197 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then how do you pick the first two letters? based on the frequencies of the first two letters for each word in the data set? < 1314315284 442901 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. i imagine it as having special initial/final trigrams with spaces in them for the boundary < 1314315294 544069 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so " g" and " go" < 1314315297 503323 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1314315324 764638 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow this makes so much more sense now. < 1314315426 116605 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what I'll probably do is allow for language options. < 1314315429 227237 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mixing of languages. < 1314315445 798411 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to find data sets for each language that I add. < 1314315507 796379 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's time to download some language packs. :D < 1314315511 506717 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually you count all trigrams, e.g. gob, obs, bsm, sma, mac, ack, cki, kin, ing. < 1314315524 286480 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right that's what I implied. < 1314315529 46642 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what oerjan was saying. < 1314315546 924845 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't bother to read what came after the highlighted-to-me bit. < 1314315561 538051 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixing language data sets will be interesting. < 1314315594 549185 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the languages would need to have similar phonetic rules though. < 1314315624 210592 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you'd probably get words that can't be pronounced easily without inventing new phonetic rules. < 1314315639 467180 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1314315686 609607 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the packages that contain /usr/share/dict language data? < 1314315688 944759 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, usually there's start/end symbols to model the edges separately, So you'd normally have . And then use just the bigram frequencies for the first word with context "<". (But certainly taking < A trigram built with little data might have the 'sword alone can't stop' problem (technical term); if you only ever see a single instance of "ab?", say "abc", the trigram frequencies will then never generate anything else than "c" after "ab". < 1314316382 601187 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 26^3 < 1314316383 282748 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 17576 < 1314316389 461339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Isn't it the banana problem :) < 1314316398 831406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sword alone can't stopping is better, though. < 1314316426 380792 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are only that many trigrams, so it sounds like it perhaps wouldn't need any smoothing. < 1314316469 791173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Mmph, now you're making me want to write my own Markov bot. < 1314316488 92681 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's Aaronical, Aaronite, Aaronitic, Aaronsburg, Aaronson, but no Aaronsoniticalburgite? < 1314316494 228266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Out of curiosity how would a mere plebian obtain that Google data; preferably one of the forms that isn't five DVDs. < 1314316498 787721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can't they. < 1314316504 888650 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. < 1314316519 663793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Run your own experiment! Raw data is available for download here." < 1314316520 162495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1314316525 785073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/datasets < 1314316527 641349 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone can download the Google Books dataset. < 1314316532 932811 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly others too. < 1314316538 66680 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, but that is not the set you have, right? < 1314316555 542669 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm guessing Googles data is better than what I'm using, yes? < 1314316567 743602 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: They're words, not letters, unless I'm terribly mistaken. < 1314316595 61751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hmph, that's a lot of data to download for such low ns. < 1314316629 184746 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wamerican-insane is also a list of words... >_> < 1314316634 324844 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am looking for word data. < 1314316644 779567 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: For an acronym generator? Stupid. < 1314316651 899931 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You can take their unigram dataset as a word list if you want. < 1314316652 956540 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pronouncable acronym generator. < 1314316687 141879 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Does it say anywhere how many words they had in the books that was built from? < 1314316704 40218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/datasets :P < 1314316736 867491 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow this is a ridiculous amount of data. < 1314316768 470029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more than you need. < 1314316784 974344 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :13.6 billion, I see.