00:00:15 <oerjan> *a wrapped [[a]] instance
00:02:25 <elliott> oerjan: what do you know about extensible exceptions :P
00:02:45 <oerjan> well what i've read from the module documentation
00:03:15 <elliott> if I do (catch m (\(x::SomeException) -> ...)), will that catch all exceptions?
00:03:24 <elliott> s/unsufficient/insufficient/
00:03:30 <oerjan> you just define an instance for your type, and unless you want to simulate the subtyping stuff, all methods are defaults
00:03:48 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) (f :: * -> *). (Monad m, Functor f) => f a -> f (m a)
00:04:13 <oerjan> and everything is a subtype of SomeException, because the main method is defined in terms of that.
00:08:26 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:27 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:31 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:44 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `Stream m0 (Stream (Iter m0 i0) o0)'
00:08:44 <elliott> with actual type `Iter (Iter m0 i0) i1 o0'
00:08:55 <elliott> micahjohnston: Dude, I botlooped lambdabot and EgoBot ages ago.
00:08:59 <elliott> Don't do it again, it'll just be annoying.
00:09:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14303
00:09:12 <elliott> EgoBot prevents it anyway.
00:09:32 <elliott> 2011-02-01.txt:16:25:33: <elliott> 11.01.20:12:51:53 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
00:09:46 <elliott> micahjohnston: EgoBot puts a zero-width space before the @, so...
00:10:59 <oerjan> huh so it special cases @
00:11:44 <oerjan> in any case, no bot sees its own messages unless specifically designed to do so
00:13:20 <oerjan> micahjohnston: also bot loops are a fine tradition, don't feel bad. it's just that all the bots present here have countermeasures.
00:13:45 <oerjan> (which is also a fine tradition, once the bot loops have been done.)
00:15:05 <elliott> no it's not, botloop prevention is a recent invention
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00:48:41 <elliott> oerjan: what's infixr four
00:49:05 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Applicative.*>' [infixl 4] of a section
00:49:39 <oerjan> i recall most of the Applicative stuff is 4
00:49:57 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Applicative.<*' [infixl 4] of a section
00:50:14 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Classes.<' [infix 4] of a section
00:50:55 <oerjan> but what would be an Applicative operator which nests most usefully rightwards...
00:51:07 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Applicative.<|>' [infixl 3] of a section
00:51:48 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Applicative.<**>' [infixl 4] of a section
00:52:17 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
00:52:35 <oerjan> and it's the one which actually is mirrored in a sense
00:53:37 <oerjan> but then, i suspect the fixities for those are not very well thought out - things starting with < having the same fixity level as <, that's like ocaml not haskell
00:54:01 <oerjan> i mean, they did not even give *> the same fixity as >>
00:54:14 <elliott> < having the same fixity as <
00:54:29 <oerjan> elliott: reading comprehension, elliott
00:54:53 <oerjan> it's the "starting with" part. ocaml actually _enforces_ that.
00:55:10 <elliott> </ must have the same fixity as <?
00:55:23 <oerjan> yes, operator precedence in ocaml is determined by first character
00:56:01 <oerjan> otoh it means you can actually remember the precedences :P
00:56:29 <elliott> oerjan: i think im breaking monoid laws by mistake oops :(
00:56:41 <monqy> what did you do :(
00:56:50 <elliott> monoid laws are hard to break :P
00:56:59 <oerjan> well not _that_ hard :P
00:57:20 <monqy> hard to break accidentally?
00:58:23 <oerjan> anyway, i don't seem to recall anything with infixr 4. maybe i should actually look somewhere :P
00:58:31 <elliott> can hayoo search by fixity :D
00:59:07 <oerjan> why do you want an infixr 4 operator anyway :P
00:59:16 <elliott> to know if i should make this operator that :D
00:59:41 <oerjan> hm haddock doesn't give fixities
01:00:27 <oerjan> ok Control.Applicative only has infixl 3 and 4
01:00:34 <monqy> ++ is infixr 5. that's pretty close.
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01:01:49 <oerjan> i think some things would have fit better together if they'd made each fixity level a unique associativity
01:02:00 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> yes 5 is very infixr
01:02:01 <monqy> <+> is infixr 5, *** and &&& are infixr 3
01:02:01 <HackEgo> 677) <oerjan> yes 5 is very infixr
01:02:12 <monqy> but where is the infixr 4
01:03:23 <oerjan> the report has only infix 4, since they're all testing operators
01:03:59 <oerjan> the only thing that could make more sense would be python's chaining
01:04:59 <oerjan> ok that's Prelude only.
01:05:02 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-820061
01:05:18 <oerjan> in fact the only variation within a level is between !! and .
01:05:37 <oerjan> (!!'s fixity is also the default one without a declaration)
01:06:04 <oerjan> but then it leaves out =<<
01:06:13 <monqy> =<< is infixr 1 i think
01:06:55 <oerjan> yes, it's the main operator i recall which usefully has the opposite associativity but still the same level
01:07:25 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section
01:07:56 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Monad.>=>' [infixr 1] of a section
01:08:02 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Category.>>>' [infixr 1] of a section
01:08:51 <oerjan> elliott: the thing is, it does not really make sense to define new non-testing operators as level 4, and i consider the Applicatives there a mistake.
01:09:15 <oerjan> they should have been lower, similarly to the monadic ones
01:09:30 <elliott> oerjan: fair enough, I'm trying to give a fixity to a piping operator
01:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: well >>> and >=> are 1
01:09:58 <oerjan> and those are all piping operators in a sense
01:10:22 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Category.<<<' [infixr 1] of a section
01:10:59 <elliott> oerjan: it's also similar to (.) in a sense though
01:11:27 <oerjan> ok but . is special it's almost syntax
01:13:59 <monqy> hey i found an infixr 4 operator
01:14:19 <monqy> it must feel so lonley
01:15:01 <oerjan> elliott: in any case, every "piping" operator i can find in Control.Arrow, Control.Category or Control.Monad is level 1, mostly infixr
01:15:42 <monqy> .| in iterio....its even called a pipe operator...but you probably already knew all of this...it may even be the reason why you want infixr 4....
01:16:43 <oerjan> oh right elliott was using that package, i saw in the logs
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01:19:44 <oerjan> there should be some guidelines for fixities (rule 1: never use infixl or infix 0)
01:20:18 <monqy> parsec's <?> uses infix 0 i think
01:20:24 <oerjan> (unless cale gets his will, in which case s/infixl/infixr/
01:20:38 <oerjan> monqy: infixl 0 iirc, and it is annoying
01:21:00 <oerjan> if it had been infixr 0 with opposite argument order, it could have been chained with $ easily
01:22:28 <oerjan> !haskell main = (0$0 Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.<?>)
01:22:58 <monqy> what parsec version is that
01:23:55 <monqy> in latest on hackage (parsec 3.1.1):
01:24:14 <monqy> weird how it has its own <|> too
01:24:17 <oerjan> well i guess it's not really _worse_ afa $ is concerned
01:24:33 <elliott> monqy: it predates Alternative I think
01:24:35 <oerjan> monqy: yeah prior to Alternative
01:24:52 <monqy> i thought early parsec predated alternatve but new parsec didnt??
01:25:11 <oerjan> except it's weird they didn't remove it when they added alternative to the instances for it...
01:25:20 <oerjan> or did they just add applicative?
01:25:29 <elliott> dunno, maybe stuff depends on it being exported
01:25:38 <elliott> and monomorphism restriction means it can't be the Alternative version
01:25:42 <elliott> because that would break backwards-compat
01:25:42 <monqy> (ParsecT s u m) has an Alternative instance
01:26:20 <monqy> fixity changes too
01:26:29 <monqy> the real <|> being infixl 3 or something like that
01:26:38 <oerjan> monqy: i realized my test must have been wrong
01:26:56 <monqy> because of old parsec or what
01:27:10 <oerjan> !haskell import Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec; main = (0$0 <?>)
01:27:10 <monqy> oh it's looking in .ParserCombinators. yeah it's old
01:27:20 <monqy> now it's just Text.Parsec isn't it
01:27:58 <oerjan> monqy: no, because it didn't get to import the operator, and so assumed for the rest of the parsing that it was infixl 9
01:28:23 <oerjan> !haskell main = print "test"
01:28:53 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
01:28:58 <oerjan> hm something went wrong there, i got a nonsensical error message
01:29:00 <oerjan> !haskell import Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec; main = (0$0 <?>)
01:29:56 <monqy> 18:30:44 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with =EgoBot
01:29:57 <monqy> 18:30:44 <EgoBot> lol
01:29:57 <monqy> 18:30:44 -!- Irssi: Closing query with =EgoBot
01:30:05 <oerjan> sometimes in a blue moon EgoBot sends responses to the wrong place
01:30:06 <monqy> is this your fault
01:30:34 <monqy> 18:30:21 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with egobot
01:30:34 <monqy> 18:30:33 <monqy> !haskell :i ++
01:30:34 <monqy> 18:30:36 <EgoBot> (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] .-- Defined in GHC.Base
01:30:47 <oerjan> monqy: you may have hit the same bug
01:31:05 <monqy> the lol was dcc chat
01:31:22 <oerjan> i got an error message which was obviously for someone else, while you got some ordinary response i think
01:31:48 <oerjan> but neither of them were supposed to be for any of us
01:31:49 <monqy> what's ordinary about lol and why would egobot ever send it
01:32:03 <oerjan> monqy: if someone tried a command !echo lol, say
01:32:20 <monqy> now I'm wondering how this could have happened
01:32:36 <oerjan> maybe it's just too many people experimenting with EgoBot simultaneously
01:33:06 <oerjan> or too much load, istr it happens more often if you give it something with a lot of output or the like
01:33:53 <oerjan> i assume EgoBot is doing responses in parallel, but its code to match responses to questioners has some race condition
01:34:53 <oerjan> or perhaps things get saved away wrongly and get sent later
01:35:31 <monqy> I gave egobot another request (!haskell :i Text.Parsec.<?>) and am not getting a response :'(
01:35:52 <monqy> I wonder who's getting it
01:37:34 <oerjan> !haskell :i Text.Parsec.<?>
01:37:54 <oerjan> no response there either
01:38:03 <EgoBot> (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] .-- Defined in GHC.Base
01:38:14 <oerjan> monqy: perhaps :i just fails silently
01:38:29 <monqy> 18:39:23 <EgoBot> infixr 5 ++
01:38:41 <oerjan> !haskell :i Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.<?>
01:38:43 <EgoBot> (Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim.<?>) ::
01:38:52 <monqy> oh right it's old parsec not new parsec
01:39:13 <monqy> blank line and all?
01:39:29 <oerjan> um i closed the window again
01:39:32 <monqy> I wonder who got the infixr/blankline from my first ++ request when I got lol
01:39:48 <oerjan> afaict it was the rest of my own response
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01:55:24 <elliott> monqy: probably a ghost :')]
01:55:25 <elliott> monqy: probably a ghost :')
02:04:42 <elliott> https://github.com/ghc/ghc/commit/3db757241ce7fb99c096c30481aefa86bb9855a1
02:05:12 <elliott> Deewiant: You may enjoy the above
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02:30:22 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa
02:30:34 <oerjan> just setting the mood here
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02:31:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
02:31:39 <lambdabot> Expected type: m a1 -> forall s. ST s a
02:32:39 <monqy> what did you do :(
02:32:45 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f (forall s. ST s a) -> f a
02:33:21 <oerjan> monqy: merely demonstrating the evil of rank n types
02:33:27 <oerjan> monqy: ok that's accidental
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02:34:39 <oerjan> :t runST . (forever :: forall s. ST s a -> forall s. ST s b)
02:34:46 <elliott> oerjan: it upsets me a lot that rank-two types prevent point-free :'(
02:35:28 <oerjan> :t runST . (forever :: forall s. ST s Int -> forall s. ST s Float)
02:35:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `s1' against inferred type `s'
02:35:29 <lambdabot> `s1' is a rigid type variable bound by
02:35:29 <lambdabot> the polymorphic type `forall s1. ST s1 Float' at <interactive>:1:9
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02:38:11 <oerjan> :t (forever :: forall s. ST s Int -> forall s. ST s Float)
02:38:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `s1' against inferred type `s'
02:38:12 <lambdabot> `s1' is a rigid type variable bound by
02:38:12 <lambdabot> the polymorphic type `forall s1. ST s1 Float' at <interactive>:1:1
02:39:45 <oerjan> :t let forever :: forall s. ST s a -> forall s. ST s b; forever x = x >> forever x in runST . forever
02:40:09 <oerjan> :t let forever :: forall a b. forall s. ST s a -> forall s. ST s b; forever x = x >> forever x in runST . forever
02:40:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `s1' against inferred type `s'
02:40:10 <lambdabot> `s1' is a rigid type variable bound by
02:40:10 <lambdabot> the type signature for `forever' at <interactive>:1:54
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02:40:42 <oerjan> :t let forever :: forall a b. (forall s. ST s a) -> (forall s. ST s b); forever x = x >> forever x in runST . forever
02:40:43 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (forall s. ST s a1) -> a
02:43:14 <oerjan> a bit of a shallow victory
02:46:34 <Gregor> Liver paste is SO GOOD
02:46:55 <Gregor> I will be the only person in history to make himself fat off liver paste.
02:46:59 <pikhq> The fuck. I seem to have spontaneously developed the ability to sing in falsetto without sounding like I'm going to murder eardrums.
02:47:16 <pikhq> (note: probably not any good. Just not a crime against humanity now.)
02:48:07 <pikhq> So, now I can sing above middle C. Whoo.
02:48:59 <pikhq> And probably kill people doing it.
02:49:04 <pikhq> Rather than definitely.
02:49:47 <oerjan> Gregor: NO WAI, ULL BE SECOND
02:51:09 <Gregor> I can sing /below/ middle C! :P
02:51:49 <pikhq> My normal singing range roughly corresponds to the bass clef.
02:54:46 <Gregor> Juries have to be uninterested third parties. So, if a person using Future Technology™ beams a live image of themselves brutally murdering someone into the minds of every living human being, then they cannot be convicted.
02:55:31 <pikhq> Keep in mind that we have the GOP here.
02:55:56 <pikhq> That person would probably just be classified as an enemy combatant and find themselves in Miniluv.
02:56:38 <Gregor> Can they be classified as an enemy combatant if they're a US citizen? I suppose so *shrugs*
02:56:56 <pikhq> The President can also order a direct assassination of you.
02:57:21 <pikhq> In short, the legal system is 120% fucked.
02:57:56 <pikhq> (precedent for the assassination thing: Obama did it.)
02:58:04 <pikhq> (yeah, not even Bush)
02:59:39 <oerjan> Gregor: incidentally there's a possible related conundrum here for the norwegian courts - one of the buildings damaged by the recent terrorist attack was the norwegian supreme court building...
03:00:16 <oerjan> hm i guess that's judges, not juries. but still, they're supposed to excuse themselves if personally involved.
03:01:06 <Gregor> oerjan: And presumably there's no precedent for bringing in judges who haven't been elected (?) to the supreme court?
03:02:00 <pikhq> Potential hack: appeal to the International Criminal Court.
03:02:01 <oerjan> Gregor: actually there is, the government is supposed to appoint some. it's just that a lot of the government's buildings were _also_ damaged.
03:02:34 <oerjan> so the government should excuse themselves from making that appointment...
03:04:23 <pikhq> Well. I don't think the terrorist attack would count as a war crime, so the ICC wouldn't have jurisdiction.
03:05:09 <oerjan> for the time being, the terrorist appears to be trying to argue that he should be tried in military court - because he's at war with the labor party.
03:06:32 <oerjan> Gregor: his lawyer has frequently pointed out that he does not see things very similarly to anyone else. including his lawyer.
03:07:03 <pikhq> If that works, then the ICC would have jurisdiction, and so he could be tried there instead of in Norway's courts.
03:07:21 * elliott considers reading all that
03:07:29 <oerjan> we're supposed to try him ourselves if we can, though :P
03:07:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, but if he gets to your supreme court, then it seems you couldn't try him.
03:07:51 <pikhq> oerjan: So, the ICC would have to.
03:08:06 <pikhq> Unless it's not a war crime, in which case fuck.
03:08:22 <oerjan> pikhq: they'll probably find some way to get some judges appointed, hopefully.
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03:10:30 <elliott> <oerjan> :t let forever :: forall a b. (forall s. ST s a) -> (forall s. ST s b); forever x = x >> forever x in runST . forever
03:10:30 <elliott> <lambdabot> forall a a1. (forall s. ST s a1) -> a
03:10:40 <elliott> oerjan: "it only breaks polymorphism"
03:10:46 <elliott> as opposed to "it only breaks beta reduction"
03:11:09 <elliott> <Gregor> Juries have to be uninterested third parties. So, if a person using Future Technology™ beams a live image of themselves brutally murdering someone into the minds of every living human being, then they cannot be convicted.
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03:11:26 <oerjan> :t forever :: forall a b. (forall s. ST s a) -> (forall s. ST s b)
03:11:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
03:11:33 <azaq23> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/middleeast/07yemen.html?hp
03:11:41 <elliott> Gregor: btw I don't think it matters if we can convict that guy :P
03:12:01 <Gregor> elliott: Probably true :P
03:12:03 <oerjan> elliott: i think the murder is supposed to be real
03:12:14 <elliott> oerjan: So it's a future murder?
03:12:36 <oerjan> elliott: erm there's no time travel involved.
03:12:39 <elliott> Can you convict people for crimes they'll do in the future, even if they're not planning them at all now? [I presume Minority Report had some kind of theme music in it, so assume it's being played now]
03:12:45 <elliott> oerjan: Then how is there anyone left to do the convicting
03:13:00 <Gregor> But it's like my hypothetical situation where a government declares its official language to be as described by some institution, and then that institution proceeds to subtly modify the language to coup.
03:13:08 <oerjan> elliott: you still need to work on your reading comprehension
03:13:21 <elliott> Oh, brutally murdering /someone/, okay
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03:13:34 <elliott> I thought it was an image of them brutally murdering you for every you :P
03:13:53 <elliott> Gregor: You would be good at nomic, but you're bad at real-world political loopholes :P
03:14:06 <Gregor> elliott: But unless he actually murders every you, that's arguably not even illegal.
03:14:19 <elliott> In nomic, people can't just resort to killing someone illegally if you fuck with them too much :P
03:14:30 <elliott> (Or can they? TODO: Murder an Agora player who pisses me off.)
03:14:34 <elliott> Gregor: That's what I said :P
03:15:32 <oerjan> elliott: i'm pretty sure your version would at least count as harassment
03:17:06 <pikhq_> elliott: You need mens rea and actus reus to convict; with the act having never occured, actus reus couldn't exist, and mens rea might not either.
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03:50:11 <oerjan> Ein monade er som ei lefse.
03:53:08 <oerjan> (kmc: une monade est comme une crêpe. una mónada es como un burrito. eine Monade ist wie ein Strudel)
03:53:48 <pikhq_> oerjan: Senatus populusque romanus?
03:56:10 <pikhq_> Following with the actual statements: モナッドは巻き寿司のようです。
03:56:30 <pikhq_> monaddo ha makizushi no you desu.
03:57:22 <pikhq_> "A monad is like a makizushi" (a makizushi being the kind of sushi that's rolled, with the contents wrapped in rice & nori)
03:57:34 <oerjan> kmc: you are taking notes, i hope?
03:59:55 <oerjan> (yes haskell weekly news is out again)
04:00:59 <elliott> <oerjan> (kmc: une monade est comme une crêpe. una mónada es como un burrito. eine Monade ist wie ein Strudel)
04:01:02 <oerjan> or wait it's not -enni- if there are no actual _years_ counted, is it
04:01:02 <elliott> waht is going on..............
04:01:12 <elliott> that oerjan...still reads...
04:01:56 <oerjan> i seem to have increased my regular haskell web sites lately
04:02:26 <oerjan> it started with r/haskell and grew from there
04:03:12 <elliott> i thought hwn was something you had received in email for years or whatever
04:03:17 <elliott> or at least i remember you saying that
04:03:22 <elliott> you said it about agora's backup lists at leaest :P
04:03:44 <oerjan> elliott: also that crêpe version started on haskell-cafe, i believe, in the comments about the french translation of learn you a haskell
04:03:55 <oerjan> so kmc obviously has expanded it
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04:04:47 <oerjan> i was about to explain how i don't actually subscribe to any haskell mailing lists, and i don't think i ever have
04:05:13 <oerjan> i _do_ however tend to gravitate towards the haskell-cafe web archive if not careful.
04:06:30 <oerjan> i don't like to read hwn on that, though, all the links are made into footnotes with url shortening
04:07:11 <elliott> i should probably subscribe to haskell-cafe
04:08:43 <oerjan> <oerjan> so kmc obviously has expanded it
04:08:52 <oerjan> was the last i said before you quit
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04:23:25 <lambdabot> Control.Monad filterM :: Monad m => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
04:23:25 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad graphFilterM :: GraphM m gr => (Context a b -> Bool) -> GT m (gr a b) [Context a b]
04:23:36 <oerjan> elliott: no, it actually is mfilter
04:23:49 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/latest/doc/html/Control-Monad.html#v:mfilter
04:24:06 <oerjan> saw it mentioned on stackexchange
04:26:43 <oerjan> short term memory failed between checking and typing :P
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04:32:54 <CakeProphet> that's not bad at all for number of 3-gram hash table entries.
04:35:32 <elliott> and what are you trying to do
04:35:36 <CakeProphet> remember like a month ago I was going to improve the acronym generator?
04:36:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
04:36:15 <elliott> if you're going to base it on words
04:36:19 <elliott> then it will just generate words
04:36:24 <elliott> do you have a database of acronyms
04:36:28 <CakeProphet> these 3-grams are of the character variety.
04:36:37 <CakeProphet> basically it's a word generator more than an acronym generator.
04:37:00 <elliott> so it will be bad at generating acronyms
04:37:16 <CakeProphet> it will generate sequences of characters that are likely to be pronounceable
04:41:14 <CakeProphet> I wonder what would happen if I also organized the data by character position.
04:41:42 <CakeProphet> so it stores the frequency of this character occuring after these two characters at this specific position.
04:41:57 <CakeProphet> something to consider afterwards, just out of curiosity.
04:43:55 <lambdabot> forall g a. (Random a, RandomGen g) => g -> (a, g)
04:45:47 -!- evincar has joined.
04:46:10 <evincar> Cool, now I know what poop tastes like without the trouble of trying it.
04:46:23 <CakeProphet> where are the lipids? :( my tongue wants lipids.
04:48:21 <evincar> Your tongue is lying to you.
04:48:52 -!- variable has joined.
04:48:55 <CakeProphet> my tongue has no notion of truth so if it's lying I can't really blame it.
04:51:42 <evincar> Is my favourite Boolean value.
04:54:06 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:59:13 <evincar> Hi monqy. How art thou to-day?
05:06:45 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:09:27 <pikhq_> evincar: I approve of thy archaicism.
05:10:13 <evincar> I recently decided to eschew "rendering" in favour of "rendition" in my computer graphics vocabulary.
05:12:57 <elliott> Gregor: What's the biggest file EgoBot will download as an interpreter
05:13:31 <monqy> CakeProphet: are you fixing wacro? good.
05:13:43 <CakeProphet> more like replacing it with something completely different.
05:14:56 <CakeProphet> I can only work on it in spare moments, which aren't many these days.
05:19:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: You no longer need to devote any effort
05:20:37 <evincar> A naked girl demands a backrub. Life is hard.
05:20:41 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: :D).
05:21:09 <monqy> hard lifes hard times
05:21:13 <elliott> can that guy get any more obnoxious
05:21:17 <elliott> let's discuss my perfect acronym generator instead
05:21:19 <elliott> CakeProphet: it uses N-GRAMS.
05:22:20 <elliott> wow such rudeness in this non-response
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05:23:10 <CakeProphet> elliott: I'm pretty sure that is not an acronym generator
05:23:22 <elliott> CakeProphet: It's a word generator.
05:23:27 <elliott> It does exactly what you were going to write. :p
05:23:54 <elliott> CakeProphet: How does it differ from what you were going to write? and do you think it differs based on evidence or are you just sure that your approach would produce better results
05:24:11 <CakeProphet> elliott: no because you've somehow completely understood what I meant by "3-grams of characters"
05:24:40 <monqy> highest quality wacronyms, macronyms
05:25:07 <CakeProphet> it seems to be very likely to generate actual existing words.
05:25:41 <elliott> Yes, that's a known deficiency which I'm correcting now.
05:25:53 <elliott> The code has all the infrastructure for it, it just hasn't been written yet.
05:26:07 <CakeProphet> uh, it looks to me like you're just randomly selecting entries
05:26:20 <elliott> I'm not. It just statistically ends up like that often.
05:26:24 <elliott> Which, like I said, correcting now.
05:26:45 <CakeProphet> also, you're an asshole. Why can't you just let me have fun?
05:26:55 <elliott> Are you calling me an asshole for writing a program?
05:27:20 <CakeProphet> specifically writing one that I am writing. It's kind of rude.
05:27:32 <elliott> You have a really weird idea of rude.
05:27:37 <CakeProphet> like "oh hey I can spit this out instantly why are you taking so long?"
05:27:55 <monqy> i find your idea of rude quite offensive
05:28:01 <elliott> Do you have issues or something? I saw something mentioned that sounded interesting and hacked up a Haskell progra.
05:28:18 <elliott> is there meant to be a moratorium on coding things you're coding, because I think you need a patent for that??
05:28:31 <monqy> n-grams (c) cakeprophet
05:28:31 <elliott> that n-gram stuff came up waaay before today anyway
05:31:13 <CakeProphet> I'm not going to be able to describe it in a way you find suitable. You will find issues with my reasoning.
05:31:44 <monqy> its like if i said i want to make a cake and then you made a better cake than me before i made my cake....and then laughed....and laughec......ad na laughed............
05:31:45 <elliott> possibly because... your reasoning is flawed?
05:32:03 <CakeProphet> basically it spoils the fun. now I feel like I'm wasting my time.
05:32:23 <monqy> how does it spoil the fun
05:32:40 <elliott> CakeProphet: so what was I meant to do
05:32:44 <monqy> other people have done n-grams. it's not like you're the first or anything.
05:32:48 <elliott> oh this sounds interesting i am going to open emacs and ghci and...
05:33:01 <elliott> because that would make me feel pretty lame too
05:33:05 <CakeProphet> I should probably give up while I'm ahead and get some sleep. especially considering I've only had one hour of that for this day.
05:34:59 <CakeProphet> elliott: I'm pretty sure if it were just something that you simply found interesting you wouldn't have presented it to me in the way you did.
05:35:33 <elliott> i have never found your predictions of me particularly accurate
05:35:52 <elliott> but ok i didn't realise you took n-grams so seriously
05:36:11 <elliott> ...despite the fact I talked about implementing n-grams for like days late last month
05:36:43 <CakeProphet> this is simply my perspective, based on the way you presented it. It seemed to be mocking. Is that an unreasonable inference?
05:38:21 <CakeProphet> whatever you're still an asshole either way. good night.
05:38:27 <monqy> good night cakeprophet
05:40:16 <elliott> cannot defend position →→→ call opopnent asshole
05:40:27 <elliott> calling me an asshole is like the oldest trick in the book... it's in Genesis
05:40:45 <monqy> your'e also a nazi. bets thats not in genesis.
05:41:27 * elliott OPPRESSES U FOUR CALLING ME NAZI
05:41:41 <elliott> im putting you in jail cell and making you listen to white noise... ON REPEAT ! ! !
05:42:17 <monqy> ;_; ;_: ;_; ;_-------_____:;;
05:42:47 <elliott> yeAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NAZI RIDE PURE FOREVER
05:43:12 * elliott runs, leaves trail of magic
05:44:32 <elliott> - no cute aminals!!!!!!!!!!!!&^
05:45:16 <elliott> haha that lok like a sad smiley
05:46:14 <elliott> thissss ins the genesis... of burning people w/ are not nazis ;) ; ) : >: - )
05:47:04 <elliott> monqy: sory if i hurt youre feelings,
05:47:18 <monqy> that is how hurt they are
05:47:29 <elliott> I CANNOT DEAL WIT HTHE UGILT ITS HARASEMNT
05:47:44 * elliott burns, explodes, booms into fire, becomes kitten, kitten lives a tohusand years, becomes angel kitten, angel dies
05:47:55 <elliott> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
05:49:13 <elliott> (you are now in the castle)
05:49:45 <elliott> YOUR HURT FEELINGS8!8!8!8!8!8!8! at this rate you will be a BAD NAZI ASS in only FIVE YEARS +motivational seminars!
05:50:25 <monqy> make more feeligns so i canm hurt them
05:50:47 <elliott> YOU MAKE MORE FEELINGS BY BREEDING WTIH THE BREEDING FLOWER ITS AN INTENSIVE GRUESOME PROCESS THAT ELAVES YUO WITH TEN FEWER INTERNAL ORGANS AND BLOOD SPEWING OUT OF EVERY ORIFICE
05:50:52 <elliott> THETEHN YOU PUNCH THEM TO DEATH SCREAMING "I DONT LIOVE YOU
05:51:11 <elliott> AND AS THEY SLOWLY START TO DIE WHILE SCREAMING "DADDY I LOVE YUO"
05:51:18 <elliott> MIGHT BE THE SLIGHTEST INKLINGS
05:51:24 <elliott> YOU DESPISE YOURSELF FOR IT
05:51:33 <elliott> YOU DESIRE ONLY TO PURGE YOURSELF OF ALL FEELING
05:51:35 <elliott> AND TO BECOME A BAD NAZI ASS
05:51:47 <monqy> purge self of all felings
05:51:50 <monqy> become bad nazi ass
05:51:57 <elliott> HOW DO YUOU PROPOSE TO DO THIS????////
05:52:15 <elliott> YUO PUNCH YOUSELRF LIKE YOU DID YOUR CHILDREN
05:52:22 <elliott> TO FAR ON THE PATH TO BECOMING A
05:52:27 <elliott> THE PUNCHES ONLY STRENGTHEN YOU
05:53:16 <monqy> did i draw blood can i drink the blood
05:53:29 <elliott> THEO NLY BLOOD IS ON YUORE CHILDREN
05:53:35 <elliott> YOU LEAN DOWN AND SUCK UP ALL THEIR BLOOD
05:53:35 <monqy> drink children blood
05:53:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
05:53:48 <elliott> YOU MUST NOT LET THAT DISTRACT YUO
05:53:53 <elliott> YOU MUST FIRST BECOME A BAD NAZI ASS
05:53:58 <elliott> ONLY THEN CAN YOU JOIN THE RANKS OF VAMPIRES
05:54:10 <elliott> YOU FEEL YOUR MUSCLES EXPLODING
05:54:13 <elliott> AND THEY EXPLODE INTO MUSCLE
05:54:20 <elliott> YOU CHEW OFF THIS NEW MUSCLE
05:54:29 <elliott> IT FEELS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD
05:54:38 <elliott> YOU ARE CURRENTLY BLEEDING PROFUSELY AND ARE SLIGHTLY FURTHER ON THE PATH TO BECOMING A BAD NAZI ASS
05:55:23 <monqy> use blood to deface property
05:55:48 <monqy> smear blood on children, elderly, pregnant women, normal people too
05:56:06 <monqy> draw blood moustaches
05:56:24 <elliott> A SEA OF PEOPLE IS WAITING FOR YOU
05:56:34 <elliott> BUT BEFORE YOU SMEAR BLOOD ON THEM
05:56:39 <elliott> YOU GET THE URGE TO DECAPITATE THEM
05:56:40 <monqy> surf sea of people
05:56:51 <elliott> SO YOU STICK OUT YOUR TONGUE AND RUN HEADFIRST AT THE SEA OF PEOPLE
05:56:58 <elliott> YOUR TONGUE IS SO STRONG THAT IT LOBS THEIR HEADS CLEAN OFF
05:57:06 <elliott> WITHIN TEN SECONDS YOU HAVE DECAPITATED EVERY SEROJISRINGEL PERSON PRESENT
05:57:28 <elliott> IT TURNS OUT THAT YUO HAVE SOME ~~~drugs~~~ IN YOUR POSESPSION
05:57:34 <elliott> THESE DRUGS WILL HELP YOU ON THE PATH TO BECOMEING A BAD NAZI ASS
05:57:42 <elliott> DO YUO TAKE THEM???? OR ARE YOU A LAWFUL BAD ANZI ASS
05:58:00 <monqy> give drugs to children, ingessst children
05:58:16 <elliott> YUO DO THAT WHILE SURFING ON THE SEAO F BLOOD
05:58:45 <elliott> OOOoooooo000000-`=`-=`=`-``-`
05:58:47 <elliott> ` =,` ,` ,`, =`=-, `= ,` -`
05:58:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
05:58:54 <elliott> ,z. m;l z=pd a\ ;a][ q \;e 'lg
05:58:57 <elliott> o-=sd=========================
05:59:11 <elliott> >: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )>: - )V
05:59:36 <elliott> .;, e. e/.w,f /we, /.,ew/ f/we., f/.we,f /
06:00:08 <monqy> bathe in blood surf. thats a good thing right.
06:00:35 <monqy> hard nazi multitasking
06:00:36 <elliott> \w/ \w/ \/w \w/ \w/\ w/\ /w\ /\w/ \w/\ /w\/ \w \o/ \o/ \m/
06:00:47 <elliott> AS YOU SURF THE SEA OF BLOOD YOU INGEST YOUR BLOOD-SOAKED CHILDREN
06:01:18 <elliott> YUO KILL Madoka-Kaname AND THROW THE BODY INTO THE PILE OF BODIES AND CRUS HTHEM WITH A GIGANTIC CRUSHING MACHINE
06:01:25 <elliott> YOUR STRENGTH INCREASES MASSIVELY
06:01:30 <elliott> YOU BECOME AS TALL AS A BUILDING
06:01:35 <elliott> AND MADE OF FUCKING WALRUSES
06:01:39 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU FUCKING DO
06:01:54 <Madoka-Kaname> I'd rather be a character in something by Urobuchi Gen
06:01:55 <elliott> YOU FLEX THEM SO HARD IT CAUSES AN EARTHQUAKE IN EVERY MAJOR CONTINENT AND AUSTRALIA
06:02:02 -!- adam__ has joined.
06:02:06 <elliott> YOU SURF ON THE EARTHQUAKE
06:02:13 <elliott> that's some wave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:02:20 <monqy> is it a wave of blood
06:02:24 <monqy> make it a wave of blood
06:02:28 <monqy> the only suitable wave
06:02:39 <elliott> THAT WOULD REQUIRE COVERING EVERY LANDMASS ON THE PLANET WITH BLOOD
06:02:40 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:03:01 <elliott> HOW DO YOU PLAN TO ACHIEVE THIS
06:03:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:04:09 <monqy> kill people into planet
06:04:34 <elliott> you go up to the first person on the planet
06:04:40 <elliott> it is an old man he is 99.99 years and 99 seconds
06:04:54 <elliott> while pressing your eyeballs into his neck
06:05:10 <elliott> and the snakes from his ears and tongue surround your face and start smothering you
06:05:13 <elliott> you find you cannot breathe
06:05:30 <elliott> you are suffocating what do you do
06:06:04 <monqy> bite/claw/whatever-kill snakes them use them to choke the false me!!!!!
06:06:24 <elliott> you attack them but it only makes them stronger
06:06:29 <elliott> you briefly see a flash of light
06:06:37 <elliott> one snake comes round to the front of your face
06:06:40 <monqy> charm snakes with nazi charms
06:06:43 -!- adam__ has changed nick to CakeProphet.
06:06:45 <elliott> and opens its mouth, its fangs showing
06:06:51 <elliott> then it moves into your eyes
06:06:58 <elliott> touches your eyeball with a scratch
06:07:04 <elliott> and then plunges further with its fangs
06:07:11 <elliott> you feel a sharp pain and your entire left field of vision fills with blood
06:07:12 <monqy> do i have danger eyes
06:07:16 -!- Madoka-Kaname has left ("elliott has gone stark raving mad...").
06:07:21 <elliott> eventually the snake crawls all the way into your eyeball
06:07:27 <elliott> and you see the same thing happen to your right eye too
06:07:37 <elliott> you blink and stare at the man who replies "i am... a person..."
06:07:46 <elliott> you touch his nose and he disintegrates into salt
06:07:47 <monqy> are my eyes made of knives or lasers or fire or poison
06:08:16 <monqy> taste salt...is it realyl sa.t....
06:08:25 <elliott> yes OH YES it is the best salt... you have ever tasted
06:08:31 <elliott> you could really do with some blood and salt on toast right now
06:08:48 <elliott> suddenly you are using the toast to surf across the continents; people explode as you pass them
06:08:56 <elliott> you feel a great power within you as you realise you are now the size of a small village
06:09:18 <elliott> you notice that your chest is actually composed of a smaller version of yourself
06:09:19 <monqy> arm and salt samdwich time
06:09:25 <elliott> you wave to yourself, and the smaller yourself grabs your arm and bites off your hand
06:09:31 <monqy> myself is a good samdwich topping too
06:09:35 <elliott> you think of smiling but decide against it
06:09:42 <elliott> you are a hard nazi ass in training
06:09:54 <elliott> you devour the sandwich with all the ingredients and fly over the world
06:10:02 <elliott> but you sure have a craving for DRUGS ON TOAST
06:10:13 <monqy> do i still have drugs children
06:10:19 <monqy> them on arms toast would be good now..........
06:10:29 <elliott> do you wanna make that bro
06:10:56 <elliott> you prepare the bread and lick out your dragon tongue at it causing fire, it is now burnt toast... just as you, a hard nazi ass, in training ,likes it
06:11:05 <elliott> you layer the arms on and they melt..mmmmmm
06:11:15 <elliott> finally you pile the drugs children on top and they morph into one with the toast
06:11:21 <elliott> their skin melting and re-hardening as they seep into the toast
06:11:29 <elliott> they cry the song of nightmares and sprout eyeballs from every skin pore
06:11:35 <elliott> and they have so much drugs.
06:12:02 <elliott> teh world becomes a NES game
06:12:07 <elliott> BLEEP bloop BLEEP BLOOOOOOP
06:12:10 <elliott> VIGOROURSLY EAT EVERYTHING
06:12:17 <elliott> you become the size of the solar system
06:12:22 <elliott> and sprout eyeballs from every pore
06:12:50 <elliott> you eat a baby and its great
06:13:33 <elliott> thats a quality baby right there that is
06:13:37 <elliott> but this is a cruel judgement not
06:13:42 <elliott> to keep with your hard nazi ass in training image
06:14:02 <fizzie> The more you know: "Replacing the WebKit.framework that ships with Mac OS X or any of its components with those from a locally built copy or a nightly build of WebKit is HIGHLY discouraged. Doing so will likely leave your system unusuable and cause a tear in the fabric of spacetime—so don't do it!"
06:14:03 <elliott> you begin to wonder if instead of a hard nazi ass you shoul dbecome a christian or a utilitarian or a girafe or something
06:14:13 <elliott> hi fizzie do you want to play
06:14:25 <fizzie> Not really; I'm at work; all work and no play.
06:14:35 <elliott> this is a very serious game
06:14:41 <elliott> it deal with social theme like nazi and opresion
06:14:51 <fizzie> Yes, I've been reading a word here and there.
06:14:55 <monqy> can i be hard nazi dgerafe
06:14:57 <fizzie> It certainly seems serious enough.
06:15:03 <monqy> i want to be a hard nazi dgerafe
06:15:19 <monqy> my specialty is blood grafiti
06:15:21 <elliott> it is like sophie's choice but without the choice
06:15:36 <elliott> or schindler's list without the list
06:16:00 <elliott> you become a ~cool nazi girafe dude~
06:16:12 <elliott> its totally two dimensional and this is cool
06:16:21 <elliott> there are lots of innocent children but you already turned them into blood drugs just by looking at them
06:16:21 <monqy> become the mario game
06:16:50 <monqy> become every mario game....even the bad ones......
06:17:08 <monqy> be played.....the players are now blood.....
06:17:26 <elliott> and your nazi mario game powers
06:17:49 <elliott> monqy: you have unlocked a new level
06:17:53 <elliott> do you wish to progress to level two
06:18:01 <monqy> this is a good hting to do it sounds like...
06:18:15 <elliott> the whole universe is wiped
06:18:29 <elliott> court marshalling the friends.....
06:18:32 <elliott> nazi.........................
06:18:35 <elliott> welcome.....................................................................
06:18:39 <elliott> destroying everything you love............
06:18:43 <elliott> emailing your parents..................................
06:18:55 <elliott> the screen flashes every colour for ten seconds and your eyes get shot out
06:18:59 <elliott> now your eyeballs are just filled with blood
06:19:02 <elliott> you have no idea where you are
06:19:31 <monqy> feel around. it feels good.
06:19:52 <elliott> that your expert position in the previous level
06:19:58 <elliott> is like a N00B ASS GAMER in this one....
06:20:07 <elliott> do you want your eyes back
06:20:12 <monqy> that would be nice....
06:20:27 <elliott> a tasteful room, decorated as in the eighteen-nineties;
06:20:40 <elliott> furnished wtih grandfather clock, cane, chair to sit in, rocking chair to sit and rock in (comes with electric guitar + amplifier),
06:20:51 <elliott> staircase (tastefully spiralled),
06:21:00 <elliott> children (not animate; immortal, impossible to destroy);
06:21:07 <elliott> portal into fourth dimension (violates geometric laws);
06:21:40 <monqy> throw cat and hcildren into portal at same time.........observe........
06:21:53 <elliott> you acnnot move the childreern. they are part of the laws of physics...
06:22:32 <monqy> just the cat, then
06:22:41 <monqy> or: move portal into children
06:22:50 <elliott> the cat tumbles into the portal. it appears to the left of you and above you, clipping with all its cuts visible (but not spilling out).
06:23:12 <elliott> you try to move the portal into children, but you find you cannot. the portal moves fine, but the children move away as you move the portal there, then back as you move it back.
06:23:25 <elliott> you try to pick up the cat but upon moving your hand inside its guts, it teleports into the portal.
06:23:48 <monqy> use portal to push childrne up stairs
06:24:11 <monqy> one of my arms dfoes this...the others is in the rocking chair....rocking out........
06:24:12 <elliott> you do this but as you go towards the tsairs the children turn around, as rock. you notice their eyes are completely white.
06:24:20 <elliott> they open their mouth and pure blackness comes out in jagged waves.
06:24:31 <elliott> it intersects your body and they cry.
06:24:53 <elliott> it ok u only lost about three turns my frend
06:25:18 <monqy> rock chair up the stairs..w.ere doing this to gether,,,the chaie.r.....and me......
06:25:54 <monqy> use NAZI MAGIC to CONJURATE up some SWET DRUGS
06:26:17 <elliott> but now youure in a corridor
06:26:19 <elliott> and everything seems kind of
06:27:29 <monqy> gently remove skull lenses from nazi vest pocket, put on eyes
06:27:39 <monqy> every type of lenses.....
06:27:44 <elliott> this feels like a good idea. but first, you think
06:27:52 <elliott> best to listen to hard nazi ass.wav (about three and a half megabytes)
06:27:58 <elliott> you upload this file with your other heart.
06:28:06 <elliott> it is about twenty per cent uploaded.
06:29:02 <elliott> this will be a great soundtrack to nazi drugs, you think.
06:29:17 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:30:08 <elliott> monqy: http://ompldr.org/vYWgzYw
06:30:12 <elliott> you download this file and listen to it.
06:30:19 <elliott> [pause for reality to catch up with perfection.]
06:30:33 -!- variable has joined.
06:30:56 <monqy> great soundtrack to nazi drugs
06:31:06 <elliott> are you prepared to continue
06:31:27 <elliott> you still in corridor. but now you have skull lenses and eyes and shit.
06:31:49 <monqy> am i playeing the soundtraxck....
06:32:11 <monqy> is the coredior less blurey now
06:32:52 <elliott> you cant man. its not your vision. the corridor itself is blurry.
06:33:05 <monqy> command corredior to focus
06:33:12 <elliott> the corridor laughs hollowly.
06:33:32 <elliott> but the corridor only gets blurrier.
06:33:51 <monqy> walk down corridor while shouting profanitiesies at it
06:33:57 <monqy> this is the ONLY waY
06:34:05 <elliott> you do, and continue to mentally command as hard as you can
06:34:09 <elliott> you focus all your energy on commanding
06:34:20 <elliott> your eyes squint up and the corridor becomes as blurry as ever, but you know this time it is your vision from squinting.
06:34:28 <elliott> you do not even bother to see the corridor as you command so hard.
06:34:57 <elliott> as you finish commanding, exhausted, and prepare to continue walking down
06:35:01 <elliott> you see the corridor again
06:35:06 <elliott> and it is just as blurry as when your eyes were a-squint
06:35:18 <elliott> it bends and becomes diagonal, trapezoid in shape, almost,
06:35:23 <monqy> give drugs to correidor
06:35:25 <elliott> and its walls start to come close together, blurry as they are,
06:35:31 <elliott> and the walls get closer and closer,
06:35:40 <elliott> sweat beads drip down from every pore of your skin and you panic and run and dash,
06:35:44 <elliott> but the walls keep closing in tighter
06:35:54 <elliott> they hit your skin and crack your bones and blood pours out and your organs are crushed and as the walls meet
06:36:06 <elliott> they both simultaneously cross the infinitesimal space that is the difference between
06:36:15 <elliott> and they pass one infinitesimal distance further
06:36:22 <elliott> crossing over each other and becoming impossible negative space
06:36:25 <elliott> but your body is still inside
06:36:32 <elliott> so it explodes out becoming the entire three-dimensional (four actually, but) space
06:36:42 <elliott> the whole universe is nothignness and you are it
06:36:51 <elliott> your hard fuckin nazi ass becomes the curtains of this universe of horrors
06:36:54 <monqy> am i now the children, portal, cat, chair
06:36:58 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRlevel reset
06:37:21 <elliott> the life of a children: so sweet.
06:37:25 <elliott> you see this punk coming up.
06:37:29 <elliott> tries to push you up the stairs with a portal.
06:37:32 <elliott> but you'll have none of that shit.
06:37:38 <elliott> shoot some mothafuckin black rays at him. yeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh
06:37:50 <elliott> ok you're feeling accomplished. you slide back into your natural position as the portal slides back as the punk disappears
06:38:13 <elliott> not the best you've had but
06:38:35 <monqy> push chair into portal
06:39:05 <monqy> put cat on rocking chair, it rocks into portal
06:39:24 <elliott> you put the cat on the rocking chair. it starts rocking the fuck out. soloing on the guitar and everything. goddam. that's one rockin cat.
06:39:37 <elliott> suddenly rock is everywhere
06:39:43 <elliott> you think this is pretty cool
06:39:58 <elliott> also everywhere is cat so every piece of matter is now furry and breathing and has a beating heart inside and ok you admit this is kind of gross
06:40:07 <elliott> even if the guitar is like... a cat guitar
06:40:41 <monqy> i dunno wander around the maze of rock or something
06:40:57 <elliott> maybe you want to be a hard nazi ass
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06:41:20 <monqy> command maze of rock to make me a hard nazi ass
06:41:39 <elliott> but you feel that maybe hugs
06:41:44 <elliott> are not the way to become a hard nazi ass
06:41:48 <elliott> do you want to exit this level
06:42:11 <monqy> kill hugs drink blood
06:42:14 <elliott> do you want to exit this level
06:42:27 <monqy> will exiting the level prevent me from killing hugs
06:42:32 <monqy> i want to kill hugs
06:42:50 <monqy> kill hugs while exiting level
06:43:06 <elliott> you do it, but the hugs are ripped away from you as you exit
06:43:10 <elliott> you have unlocked a new level
06:43:14 <elliott> do you wish to progress to level three
06:43:31 <elliott> you are on the path to becoming a HARD NAZI ASS.
06:45:34 <monqy> im bad at beingmonqy in #espeteric
06:45:47 <elliott> the thing you must realise.
06:45:55 <elliott> you are the best at being monqy in #esoteric
06:45:58 <elliott> not #espeteric though that's a whole nother ball game
06:46:12 <monqy> im realize this now, ok.
06:47:44 <monqy> the hardest level......great dificulties lie within monqy being not a hard nazi asss at alll,,,,,i have gone backwards in progres,,
06:48:00 <elliott> because that is not what hard nazi asses do.
06:48:27 <monqy> explore esoteric for ways to beome a hard nazi ass.s.
06:49:05 <elliott> <monqy> how do i beome a hard nazi ass.s.?
06:49:13 <monqy> <monqy> how do i beome a hard nazi ass.s.?
06:49:26 <monqy> monqy how do i become a hard nazi ass.s.?
06:49:32 <monqy> how do i become a hard nazi ass.s.?
06:49:50 <monqy> becomeing is not my
06:50:53 <elliott> monqy: (this level is played in realtime)
06:51:07 <elliott> monqy: do you want me to try and help you
06:51:35 <elliott> you need to enter commands into the game.
06:51:37 <elliott> such that you become that.
06:51:42 <elliott> try listening to hard nazi ass.wav.
06:52:10 <elliott> all i know about the lyrics to that is that they include "hard nazi ass"
06:52:28 <monqy> aoeoaoeohardnaziassaeaooeoaoeoeaoeoeaaoo
06:52:56 <monqy> become hard nazi ass
06:53:44 <monqy> rolepaly nazi on journey to hard ass to become...,,,,in this adventure,,,it happens
06:54:03 <elliott> so you open the game console
06:54:18 <monqy> become hard nazi ass
06:54:52 <monqy> in the adventure....is the twist ending....that the hard nazi ass was in my heart....all along
06:55:23 <monqy> investigate cheats manual
06:55:34 <monqy> how to become hard nazi ass.help
06:55:42 <elliott> playing the game you are playing now
06:55:49 <elliott> on the path to becoming a nazi ass
06:55:59 <elliott> to what I have been doing ?
06:56:33 <monqy> in this comnsole game i was not given a propmt like the others,,,,
06:56:39 <monqy> look around, console
06:56:46 <elliott> <elliott> your name is monqy.
06:56:47 <elliott> <elliott> you are on the path to becoming a HARD NAZI ASS.
06:56:47 <elliott> <elliott> you are in #esoteric.
06:56:58 <monqy> that is a harD prompT
06:57:12 <elliott> it is what you have been doing for a long time already
06:57:17 <elliott> keep doing what youore doing???
06:57:51 <monqy> my doing has become dulll,
06:58:25 <monqy> kicks elliot, screams about hard nazi asses
06:58:39 <elliott> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/INTERRUPT DECISION TIME
06:59:03 <monqy> if they are pOIson, i force them down your throAT
06:59:30 <monqy> throw eliot funeral party
07:01:18 <elliott> the desynchronisation between the game fact that i am dead and the real fact that i am alive causes an infinite universe recursion.
07:01:39 <monqy> harnes recusion power to become hard naiz ass
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07:03:55 <elliott> rip channel being good 05:40—07:02
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07:57:58 <elliott> does anyone know decent DNS providers? I don't like OpenDNS. I'm tempted to just use Google Public DNS, but...
07:58:11 <elliott> Hmm, maybe I'll run that "try a bunch of DNS servers and find the best" program.
07:58:29 <elliott> Deewiant: You vastly overestimate the quality of my ISP.
07:58:52 <elliott> I'm sure it's lovely, I'm also sure it's shitty from England :P
07:58:58 <elliott> http://code.google.com/p/namebench/ This is the thang
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07:59:18 <Deewiant> I'm sure it won't respond to DNS queries from non-customers
07:59:36 <elliott> "I'd like to buy JUST DNS."
07:59:55 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to DrDerpa.
08:01:17 <fizzie> Use one of those alternative-root DNS services, they're so undergrund.
08:01:24 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, yes, "undergrund"
08:01:25 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, yes, "undergrund".
08:01:30 <elliott> That's certainly one word.
08:01:54 <elliott> fizzie: You might want to ban me in advance before oerjan does it after logreading, btw.
08:02:19 <fizzie> (I was tempted to spell it "undergründ".)
08:02:27 <elliott> It did seem to be missing an umlaut, yes.
08:02:50 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I have the slightest feeling he may not quite enjoy over an hour of illogical Nazi-drug-toast text adventure gameplay.
08:03:02 <elliott> That's a personal failing of his, though, naturally.
08:03:26 <elliott> Gosh, namebench sure does take a while.
08:03:32 <fizzie> Ohhh, that. Wellll... there weren't any complainers, were there?
08:03:58 <elliott> fizzie: Well, Lymia said I was mad and then /parted, but that was under an alternate nick, so it NEVER HAPPENED. (Rule of IRC.)
08:04:27 <elliott> Nobody else, but I think everyone else was just asleep and/or busy.
08:04:41 <elliott> Or watching attentively, eagerly anticipating every development. That's possible too.
08:05:01 <elliott> It's alright though, all the cool people are in -minecraft anyway.
08:05:38 -!- DrDerpa has changed nick to copumpkin.
08:06:25 <elliott> What _is_ namebench doing? Oh, I see.
08:07:10 <elliott> I wonder if the time I'm losing doing nothing while waiting for namebench is greater than the combined amount of time I'll save by switching to a faster DNS provider.
08:13:26 <elliott> <namebench comment> I tried it but unusual result came out. The result showed my access point IP which is 192.168.1.1 the best one. quit strange but working result was quite good. coul any one explain technically how such thing is possible. Is my access point could be a public DNS.
08:20:41 <elliott> I wonder if maybe I should run a local DNS cache.
08:45:21 <Vorpal> also fizzie talked just above
08:46:17 <Vorpal> elliott: hm, does namebench work well?
08:46:57 <Vorpal> never mind, misread elliott's line as if he was alone, not noticing you
08:47:21 <Vorpal> elliott: Personally I just run a local unbound dns server.
08:48:59 <Vorpal> why is it that some random university system sends a HTML-only mail with the subject (translated) "Daily summary of notice panel" about *once every week*.
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09:22:34 <elliott> 08:46:17: <Vorpal> elliott: hm, does namebench work well?
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10:22:27 <elliott_> pikhq: What do Tk bindings usually look like
10:22:37 <elliott_> Do you have to mess with Tcl crap or is there a mostly-C API available
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10:32:51 <nooga> http://chrisfenton.com/cray-1-digital-archeology/ pretty nice
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10:49:45 <fizzie> "In a few cases, these are native bindings (C and Perl at least) while others create a link between calls to Tcl/Tk and the language."
10:51:10 <fizzie> Tcl and Tk are both written in C, and the former calls to the latter, so there needs to be some sort of a thing there.
11:08:32 <elliott_> "The file tk.h should be considered a public declaration of the Tk C functions, defines/macros, and structures which a developer can safely depend on." -- oh, please.
11:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott_ why "oh please"?
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11:21:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: That's not a substitute for API documentation.
11:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott_: my tk.h seems to be very well documented in the form of comments
11:24:00 <Vorpal> hm I used tup a bit, very nice. There is just one issue I have with it really: No equivalent to make's -j
11:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott_: hm I did. Will have to check again
11:24:40 <elliott_> You can use the num_jobs configuration (user or project-local), or -jN to tup upd.
11:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott_: btw what is the correct way to get generated files included in a build? For example I might have a :foreach *.c rule, and a rule that generates a *.c file using bison or some such.
11:29:08 <Vorpal> will the foreach *.c include the generated .c file?
11:31:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: If it occurs after the generating rule, I believe.
11:32:28 <Vorpal> elliott_: in textual order in the Tupfile you mean? Or as ordered by those order-only dependencies?
11:32:47 <elliott_> Textual, I think. Don't quote me on this. I know the order matters in some cases, basically to match what it would do as a shell script.
11:33:35 <Vorpal> hm.... either order seems to work, but then it is hard to know if it will always work, like on a clean build on another system or such.
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11:34:33 <Vorpal> elliott_: I guess I should ask pikhq? He seems quite knowledgeable about tup.
11:34:42 <elliott_> Vorpal: Just post on tup-user.
11:34:47 <elliott_> Mike will probably answer it within a day or two.
11:35:06 <elliott_> So you don't have to subscribe or anything.
11:35:17 <Vorpal> oh okay. I never even used google groups, would have to figure out how that works too
11:35:22 <Vorpal> still, not a mailing list
11:35:49 <elliott_> Well, it's primarily subscribe-and-email-reply based. But it can work basically like a crappy imitation of a web forum.
11:35:57 <elliott_> You don't have to receive messages through email and can post through the web.
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11:37:59 <Vorpal> elliott_: oh btw, I noticed tup complain about /etc/fuse.conf not being readable on my ubuntu system. tup seems to work correctly as far as I can tell though
11:41:11 <elliott_> Vorpal: it'll try to read it, since it uses fuse
11:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott_: hm doesn't stuff need to be suid to use fuse?
11:42:48 <Vorpal> thought that was required
11:43:27 <Vorpal> but sshfs seems to manage without.
11:44:19 <elliott_> that's the whole point of fuse :P
11:44:39 <fizzie> That's not the *whole* point of FUSE.
11:44:47 <Vorpal> oh it is fusermount that is suid
11:45:02 <Vorpal> to be able to unmount I guess
11:47:48 <elliott_> fizzie: Well, at least a quarter of it.
11:51:34 <fizzie> It might have been Debian that came with fusermount normally suid-root but executable only by the 'fuse' group.
11:51:44 <fizzie> Not sure about Ubuntu; here it seems to be for all users.
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11:57:21 <fizzie> Incidentally, what's it use fuse for?
11:58:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: since it can see every file opened by commands it execute that way. Unlike a LD_PRELOAD it would work even for static binaries
11:59:54 <oerjan> elliott_: i see the spelling in this channel has gründ to a halt.
12:00:13 <elliott_> oerjan: have you got to the nazi game yet
12:00:24 <elliott_> fizzie: Vorpal got it right; fuse is also more portable than LD_PRELOAD.
12:00:34 <oerjan> ...i was planning to skip the rest of the logs
12:00:53 <elliott_> oerjan: no, you totally shouldn't :D
12:01:11 <Vorpal> elliott_: hm I thought fuse was linux only
12:01:39 <Vorpal> elliott_: what OSes does it support then? FreeBSD? Windows? OS X?
12:01:52 <elliott_> OS X yes. BSDs I think so yes.
12:02:16 <elliott_> http://fuse4bsd.creo.hu/ http://www.netbsd.org/docs/puffs/ "FUSE compatibility was added within pkgsrc, and besides the required infrastructure work a number of FUSE packages were added to pkgsrc in the new "filesystem" category. Example packages that are currently available include:
12:02:30 <oerjan> <elliott> - no cute aminals!!!!!!!!!!!!&^
12:02:44 <oerjan> but hitler loved animals! more than people, probably.
12:02:54 <elliott_> oerjan: we're better nazis than the nazis, basically.
12:05:46 <oerjan> the perfect nazi: kills everyone else for not being perfect. then kills emself for having no friends.
12:06:31 <elliott_> how did you discover the game's true plot
12:06:53 <oerjan> i have a nose for perfection.
12:07:04 <elliott_> what a coincidence. i have a nose.
12:09:20 <oerjan> i am not convinced browsing this makes me a better person.
12:09:51 <elliott_> oerjan: if you don't read it, how will you ever find the evidence to ban me with
12:18:12 <oerjan> well it is important for children to be able to play games so they don't grow up into serial killers. oh wait...
12:30:34 <oerjan> i somehow think that the theory that tolkien's works were really written by william shakespeare has not got much exposition before.
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12:32:10 <oerjan> maybe i should repeat that.
12:32:21 <oerjan> <oerjan> i somehow think that the theory that tolkien's works were really written by william shakespeare has not got much exposition before.
12:33:41 <Ngevd> Also, I found someone who's heard of elliott_
12:33:44 <Ngevd> That is, our elliott_
12:33:52 <Ngevd> Not the elliott_ who kicked my friend in the fac
12:34:01 <Ngevd> Who is probably not the same elliott_
12:34:39 <Ngevd> He said "Elliott's weirder than you. Somehow."
12:35:10 <oerjan> i sense a plan doomed to failure
12:35:15 <Ngevd> They went to the same first school for a bit, apparently
12:36:21 <Ngevd> Before elliott_ switched
12:36:26 <Ngevd> To a different school
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12:40:24 <Ngevd> Also, there is nowhere near enough editing of the wiki ATM
12:41:28 <Vorpal> Ngevd: the simple solution to that is to stop banning spambots
12:42:43 <Vorpal> oerjan: oh and it seems iwc didn't stop. :)
12:43:21 <Vorpal> oerjan: are you surprised?
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14:11:21 <CakeProphet> wow there are so many files in this google n-gram data that are just... numbers.
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14:27:46 <fizzie> Possibly they have scanned some function tables.
14:28:15 <fizzie> Have I mentioned my trigonometric function table book here? I think I have mentioned my trigonometric function table book here.
14:28:29 <fizzie> It's the one that was donated by the good peoples of the US of A.
14:30:08 <fizzie> "This book has been presented to Finland by the Government of the United States of America, under Public Law 265, 81st Congress, as an expression of the friendship and good will which the people of the United States hold for the people of Finland."
14:30:58 <fizzie> It's titled "Seven-place values of trigonometric functions".
14:31:15 <CakeProphet> yes I often think about my deep affinity with the Finnish people.
14:31:36 <fizzie> I suppose everyone in your country does.
14:31:44 <fizzie> It's like a thing with you people.
14:33:56 <fizzie> "Finland Pays Its Debts and Gets Books in Return: ASLA Grants to the Finnish Academic Libraries, 1950-1967; In 1949 the U.S. Congress passed a law (P.L. 81-265) that transformed Finnish payments on the loans acquired from the United States after World War I into a fund. Out of the fund, grants for travel in the United States were given to Finnish researchers and specialists. Finnish institutions of higher education were given grants in order to acquire American
14:33:56 <fizzie> scientific and scholarly books as well as technical equipment."
14:34:29 <fizzie> I got it for I think 2 eur from the "we want to get rid of this stuff" sale of the university library.
14:35:32 <fizzie> Also bought the book about how to (mechanically; without real understanding) convert ALGOL-60 programs to FORTRAN-II/IV programs. It has lots of details on different computers; word sizes and that sort of stuff.
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14:59:54 <CakeProphet> I wonder what I should do with these 1.2 gigs of O'Reily books.
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15:08:30 <CakeProphet> I'll probably just keep them as reference material.
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15:23:02 <elliott> http://www.reagan.com/emailintro.html
15:24:17 <CakeProphet> wow software process models sure are bullshit.
15:24:49 <CakeProphet> we are staring at charts of imaginary things and talking about imaginary imaginariness.
15:27:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it's for conservatives, so they'll either be rich, or act as if they're rich in every situation despite not being rich.
15:28:25 <CakeProphet> that's really not very much money... but it is for email.
15:29:30 <CakeProphet> money better invested in sour punch straws.
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15:42:53 <elliott> monqy better invested in sour punch straws
15:46:19 <CakeProphet> so I can write about all the boring stuff I do.
15:46:29 <elliott> i thought that was #esoteric
15:47:14 <CakeProphet> because apparently all of the people in my life know nothing about that.
15:47:40 <monqy> the science of how to fix my computer
15:47:55 <Ngevd> I signed up for an open university course today
15:47:58 <ais523> monqy: that's electronic engineering
15:48:01 <CakeProphet> monqy: 1) replace all hardware components 2) install linux
15:48:04 <Ngevd> "Linux: an introduction"
15:48:17 <monqy> who needs a course to introduce linux?
15:48:32 <elliott> <ais523> monqy: that's electronic engineering
15:48:39 <elliott> ais523: that may be a slightly more involved computer-fixing than most people require
15:48:40 <CakeProphet> monqy: no one, everyone is a linux nerd in the entire world.
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15:48:51 <ais523> elliott: oh, right, I assumed he meant hardware
15:49:03 <ais523> if it's a software problem, "broken" isn't the word I'd typically use
15:49:06 <elliott> "Have you tried turning it off and on again?" "Oh, that worked. Thanks." "Thank god I got that EE degree."
15:49:40 <CakeProphet> so last night I was moving a bunch of files
15:49:53 <CakeProphet> and it was making my computer annoyingly laggy
15:49:59 <CakeProphet> so I set the nice level of mv to like... 16 I think.
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15:50:19 <CakeProphet> and suddenly a bash process began using all of my CPU cycles, at which point my computer abruptly cut off.
15:50:44 <monqy> this is why you should take linux an introduction
15:50:59 <CakeProphet> but I didn't think it would crash my computer...
15:51:52 <ais523> elliott: that reminds me of the joke, "$famousperson found someone turning a computer off and on again to try to fix a problem, but it wasn't working. He said 'you can't fix a problem by turning a computer off and on again without understanding what is wrong with it'. Then he turned the computer off and on again, and the computer worked."
15:52:08 <ais523> CakeProphet: what sort of crash? kernel panic? computer turning off?
15:52:16 <elliott> ais523: that's a rubbish joke, it's much better as the original koan
15:52:16 <ais523> normally, when a computer abruptly turns off it's because it overheated
15:52:24 <ais523> but I can't remember the original koan exactly
15:52:27 <elliott> A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.
15:52:27 <elliott> Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: "You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong."
15:52:27 <elliott> Knight turned the machine off and on.
15:53:54 <CakeProphet> ais523: well there was a bash process at 400% CPU
15:54:10 <CakeProphet> I merely assumed it had something to do with adjusting the nice level of mv.
15:54:23 <ais523> that would explain why the computer would be heating up, if had heating issues
15:54:32 <ais523> as full CPU usage tends to make a CPU hotter
15:54:52 <ais523> also, you'd expect your CPU to be running at maximum whenever it had a reason to do so
15:55:01 <ais523> nice just controls what processes get priority
15:55:19 <ais523> but each CPU should be running at 100% all the time the computer needs to make calculations, or you're just being slow for no reason
15:55:32 <ais523> the only reason a CPU shouldn't be running at max is that you have no CPU-bound processes
15:55:32 <elliott> ais523: if you're in the 90s...
15:55:46 <elliott> ITT: Power usage, fan speed, battery life :P
15:55:50 <ais523> elliott: quite a few people seem to have a fear of processes using 100% CPU
15:55:52 <fizzie> CakeProphet: The university bookshop sold SICPs at 5 eur/piece when our "introduction to programming" course switched from Scheme to Python/Java/whatever, and it was no longer a course book.
15:56:12 <ais523> fizzie: did you buy it? did you already own it?
15:56:13 <elliott> ais523: They usually slow the rest of the system down because Unix.
15:56:16 <CakeProphet> well, except, it's completely free online.
15:56:23 <elliott> Specifically the user interface.
15:56:34 <ais523> elliott: well, it's a matter of task prioritisation
15:56:38 <ais523> the user interface doesn't normally run at RT prio
15:56:40 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover: School reccomended I take one
15:56:43 <ais523> arguably it /should/, but it doesn't
15:56:51 <CakeProphet> I suppose mv is IO-bound and not CPU-bound, it was taking about 25% of max.
15:57:03 <elliott> Honestly, not responding to the user is pretty much the worst UI crime you can commit.
15:57:07 <ais523> yep, mv is about as IO-bound as you can get
15:57:18 <elliott> I suppose no interface is truly unresponsive; it'll always respond properly to pulling the power cable.
15:57:19 <CakeProphet> also at the same time I was decompressing roughly 20 gbs of zip files.
15:57:25 <ais523> elliott: I prefer processes to be honest about whether they're frozen or not
15:57:29 <elliott> ais523: I'd say cp is more IO-bound than mv
15:57:33 <elliott> mv is more syscall-bound, on the same device
15:57:52 <elliott> ais523: what does that have to do with UI priority?
15:58:11 <ais523> elliott: it depends on what you define as the UI
15:58:19 <CakeProphet> also my laptop is sitting on my bed so the fan is partially obstructed. it would make sense that it overheated abruptly.
15:58:28 <ais523> even currently-modern OSes are pretty good at always having the mouse pointer move, for instance
15:58:31 <ais523> when you move the moues
15:58:41 <ais523> but if it can't click on anything and have it respond, that's useless
15:58:42 <CakeProphet> there's a side vent as well so it's not like the cooling system is completely obstructed.
15:58:49 <elliott> ais523: That certainly doesn't hold true for me
15:59:06 <ais523> elliott: I'm used to the days of Windows crashing so hard that nothing but the mouse pointer worked
15:59:09 <elliott> I can guarantee on roughly nothing working if the system is taxed enough.
15:59:19 <elliott> Often it's too hung to even switch to a VT.
16:00:52 <CakeProphet> ais523: do you think the nice value had anything to do with the bash process suddenly skyrocketing in CPU usage or perhaps it was a coincidence.
16:01:13 <ais523> I think it was irrelevant
16:01:27 <CakeProphet> still I have no idea what the bash process was doing then...
16:01:29 <ais523> elliott: sometimes I can switch to a VT just fine after alt-sysrq-R, but not before
16:01:35 <CakeProphet> and it occured immediately after changing the priority.
16:01:35 <ais523> so it's nothing to do with being hung, but rather being in an invalid state
16:01:45 <ais523> how do you not have a sysrq key?
16:01:56 <ais523> every laptop I've ever used had some way to type sysrq
16:02:00 <ais523> this laptop has a physical sysrq key
16:02:04 <ais523> it was some crazy combo on the one before
16:02:12 <elliott> Surely it has a physical print screen key.
16:02:12 <ais523> fn-insert or something
16:02:19 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover: your guess is as good as mine
16:02:20 <ais523> elliott: it has PRTSC SYSRQ written on it
16:02:28 <ais523> the SYSRQ is arguably slightly more prominent
16:02:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:02:43 <ais523> also, alt-sysrq-k is the only method I have of logging out on this system
16:03:07 -!- augur has joined.
16:03:18 <CakeProphet> I actually have no idea what sysrq does...
16:03:22 <ais523> elliott: because I removed the logout widget to save the screen corner
16:03:35 <ais523> I believe in Fitts' Law much like you do
16:03:49 <ais523> although I'm only actually using two screen corners because of a shortage of things to put on the other two
16:04:18 <elliott> I've started to see Fitts' law as more of an argument for the inefficiency of mice in general than for their efficiency in special cases (not that I think the traditional command-line interface is much more productive on its own)
16:04:24 <elliott> like, on the one hand, corners are really easy to access
16:04:32 <elliott> on the other hand, almost all locations on the screen are difficult to
16:04:49 <ais523> I agree with you, there
16:05:11 <ais523> I tend not to use mice for anything much other than web brosing
16:05:28 <CakeProphet> my computer should have some fancy interface that tracks my eye movements.
16:05:33 <ais523> although I make sure I have my taskbar in a consistent order, I mostly use alt-tab to change windows
16:05:45 <ais523> CakeProphet: it exists, but clicking is frustrating with that
16:05:52 <elliott> it's rather painful, though, which is why only disabled people tend to use it
16:05:57 <elliott> painful in the annoying sense
16:06:40 <ais523> elliott: what's your opinion on dwell-click?
16:06:48 <ais523> the idea that you can click a mouse by moving it to a stop from a particular direction
16:06:53 <ais523> and to avoid clicking, you move it to a stop from the other direction
16:06:53 <elliott> ais523: it irritates me :P
16:07:04 <ais523> most things irritate you
16:07:04 <CakeProphet> oh, no in the painful sense? no scary cables that you have to inject in your brain?
16:07:07 <elliott> I think your mouse being a ticking time bomb unless you constantly move it around is a bad idea in general, though
16:07:14 <ais523> have you tried it? I haven't
16:07:28 <elliott> CakeProphet: it just uses a webcam
16:07:32 <ais523> I think I have a higher tolerance to pain than many people; I even got decent at playing Enigma with a touchpad
16:07:35 <elliott> ais523: there's a site that does it :-)
16:07:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:07:39 <ais523> higher tolerance to bad UI pain, I mean
16:07:43 <elliott> and yells at you if you click
16:07:57 <elliott> it was on the ~~social networking~~ sites a few years ago
16:07:59 <ais523> I find I'm inconsistent about whether I tap-click or button-click
16:08:02 <CakeProphet> mice are good. mice are fine. mice + shell = sufficient
16:08:13 <monqy> mice suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
16:08:20 <ais523> well, there are several games with that name
16:08:22 <monqy> mmmm enigma., been ages since i've played that
16:08:25 <elliott> cheater: a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a riddle
16:08:29 <CakeProphet> touch screen is a minor improvement to a mouse perhaps.
16:08:30 <ais523> the one I'm thinking of is http://enigma-game.org
16:08:35 <monqy> can't imagine it with a atouchpade though
16:08:39 <ais523> it has the worst trailer of anything ever, it's so bad it's hilarious to watch
16:08:46 <elliott> you can play anything with a touchpad, it just makes you more hardcore
16:08:46 <monqy> yeah I was thinking of that one too
16:08:50 <ais523> CakeProphet: playing Enigma with a touchscreen would be basically impossible
16:08:55 <cheater> ais523: can you tell me a short description? i cannot open the web page
16:08:57 <ais523> it works much better with a tilt sensor than touchscreen
16:09:00 <cheater> even if you copypaste from there.
16:09:02 <elliott> http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/index.html
16:09:08 <CakeProphet> ais523: oh I was kind of not in that thread of discussion.
16:09:24 <CakeProphet> just discussing physical interfaces still.
16:09:33 <ais523> cheater: you control a marble by accelerating it with your mouse; you have to solve puzzles, mostly by colliding your marble into things that interact with the puzzles
16:09:56 <monqy> oh god this movie clips thing
16:10:05 <fizzie> ais523: I already owned it; didn't buy a second copy, ineiros bought a couple (5?) though to give to people.
16:10:28 <CakeProphet> I love this loud encoding fuck ups in this class recording
16:10:43 <ais523> enigma has different floors !
16:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> it has the worst trailer of anything ever, it's so bad it's hilarious to watch
16:10:49 <elliott> monqy: you're talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9l26Y-mBk right
16:10:51 <CakeProphet> "-soft professor mumble- -mumblemumble- EEEEEEEERK -mumblemumble- EERK"
16:10:56 <elliott> ais523: oh no they're making a trailer two
16:10:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9l26Y-mBk
16:10:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: this awful
16:11:07 <elliott> sit through all 9 minutes to win a prize (the prize is giving up on life)
16:11:13 <ais523> elliott: that's the one I'm talking about, thanks for digging up the link before I did
16:11:41 <ais523> that game is really really bad at advertising
16:11:57 <ais523> and the tutorial doesn't really fill people with confidence
16:12:06 <elliott> i musnt't quote every line from this
16:12:27 <elliott> ais523: do the people behind this actually think it's good btw
16:12:43 <elliott> beware of unfriendly actors... i met an unfriendly actor once
16:12:43 <monqy> have you seen the death stones
16:12:45 <ais523> my guess is yes, because they wouldn't be promoting it so heavily otherwise
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16:12:47 <elliott> he was in a movie but he was mean :(
16:13:03 <elliott> have you seen the death stones...
16:13:21 <ais523> move the blocks well …
16:13:31 <elliott> sweet bro and hella enigma
16:13:46 <elliott> it actually just said "help"
16:14:18 <elliott> this chess example is very foreboding, musicwise
16:14:45 <ais523> I just noticed that "have you seen the death stones" comes up on a screen with no death stones
16:14:51 <elliott> ais523: i think they're just
16:14:55 <elliott> of the screen like a minute prior
16:15:02 <CakeProphet> this dance is very unpalatable, science-wise.
16:15:02 <elliott> "oh hey, there were death stones there... pls rewind"
16:15:02 <ais523> this thing has new depths of brilliance every time I watch it
16:15:14 <elliott> in some ways, this is the best possible trailer
16:15:39 <elliott> oh man this level looks hard
16:15:43 <elliott> i don't want to try to reah the other side
16:15:45 <elliott> i'm happy with the side god gave me
16:15:51 <elliott> ais523: four minutes fifty seconds in
16:15:58 <elliott> bunch of disappearing/spiralling platforms
16:16:04 <ais523> I haven't got there yet, I'll tell you my opinion when I get there
16:16:18 <CakeProphet> elliott: shame you're not playing portal chess then you could just drump through your knight's nose.
16:16:33 <elliott> i like how it picked up a bunch of money
16:16:38 <elliott> and just dropped it for no reason
16:16:50 <ais523> the chess example is just there because people used to have no idea how to operate chess stones, IIRC
16:17:11 <monqy> it stopped being onscrieen before i could transcribe it
16:17:14 <monqy> why is this so great
16:17:31 <elliott> this is the best possible thing we could all do together for 9 minutes
16:17:59 <elliott> i love how enigma water looks nothing like water
16:18:06 <elliott> it just looks like blue floor
16:18:40 <ais523> elliott: oh right, I reached the level you were talking about, it's pretty hard, although not the hardest level in the set of all levels similar to it
16:19:04 <elliott> who edited this thing did they think we cared about this section of gameplay minutiae
16:19:09 <elliott> or would have any idea what's going on
16:19:47 <ais523> elliott: I can't explain it, so don't ask me to
16:20:12 <CakeProphet> ANASIDHAISUDHQWIEUHASIUDHQWEIUHASOPAPQPWOEOWPEPWPESODJGFKDKDSKF
16:20:36 <ais523> towards the end, they're just showing off some of the highest-rated levels, and completely missing the reasons /why/ they're highest-rated
16:21:14 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXcpU9RNxuc
16:21:15 <monqy> watching magic moments of enigma
16:21:22 <ais523> magic moments is considerably better than the trailer
16:21:40 <elliott> ais523: do you click links nowadays, i'd like your opinion of that linked level
16:21:50 <CakeProphet> portal chess is considerably better than all games.
16:21:59 <ais523> I'm not clicking that, but only because it'd open in Firefox, which doesn't have Flash added
16:22:04 <ais523> I'll open it in a browser that does have Flash support
16:22:19 <monqy> magic moments has good music
16:22:24 <monqy> if only the trailer had this music
16:22:25 <ais523> oh, "bowling", it's a stupid annoying luck-based level
16:22:55 -!- augur has joined.
16:22:57 <elliott> that one also has a funny playthrough
16:23:04 <ais523> I don't think I've solved that one
16:23:07 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa2_TpYJ_Ug
16:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> why is there a scantily-clad anime girl in the suggestions thing at the end
16:23:48 <ais523> Alain Busser has a tendency to make huge, artistic levels that are quite easy once you know the solutions
16:23:52 <ais523> also, excessively mathematical ones
16:24:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is the true spirit of Enigma.
16:24:46 <ais523> Engima is indeed originally German
16:24:52 <elliott> ais523: So is truspirenigmat.
16:25:00 <ais523> but it's translated into a lot of langauges
16:25:04 <elliott> It's quite a German game, Enigma. Not quite sure why I say this.
16:25:07 <monqy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umbOX3DwxeQ magic moments
16:25:13 <ais523> I feel so honoured having text strings I wrote translated into other languages
16:25:27 <ais523> I see a french translation of something in one of my levels, and bask in it
16:25:29 <elliott> did they translate it into non-ais english
16:25:40 <elliott> "original string had too many nested parentheses and overflowed enigma's string buffer"
16:25:46 <monqy> i want enigma in zzo english
16:25:49 <ais523> they even translated the original English into non-ais English
16:26:00 <elliott> monqy: it would be too much
16:26:02 <ais523> by adding spaces before punctuation marks other than full stops
16:26:15 <elliott> ais523: that's French english :P
16:26:28 <ais523> one level I wrote is called "Choices, choices ..."
16:26:34 <ais523> I think it's a ... not a …
16:26:43 <ais523> but I'm not completely sure, I find them hard to tell apart
16:28:01 <ais523> btw, the addition of "rhythm of space" at the end of the trailer was just trolling, as the level isn't actually /in/ the released version of Enigma
16:28:23 <ais523> also, it's a really trollish level, it's just a really really big maze with lots of backtracking and items and deathtraps
16:28:31 <ais523> I don't like big levels that are easy to die in / make unwinnable
16:28:50 <HackEgo> 610) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
16:29:06 <ais523> unless such deaths/unwins are always the player's fault and the player has enough information to work it out in advance
16:29:24 <ais523> (that's what I did with "Choices, choices ..." where you get to see the entire level before you start playing, and there's basically no hidden information)
16:29:46 <elliott> So how's the Enigma AI scene
16:29:50 <elliott> I guess the Lua stuff kinda messes with that
16:29:54 <ais523> I don't think it exists
16:30:07 <ais523> and quite a lot of levels don't need custom Lua
16:30:17 <ais523> I avoid it in my levels where I can and still meet the concept of the level
16:30:59 <ais523> sometimes dynamic scripting is unavoidable, but I hope to avoid it where possible
16:31:15 <ais523> (I use Lua to /generate/ the levels quite a lot, so that a level isn't the same every time, but that's different as everything still acts like you'd expect it to)
16:37:41 <elliott> does anyone know a good way to do a human-consumable diff of binary files?
16:38:08 <ais523> elliott: od then diff works if the difference is a multiple-of-n bytes long (where n is the line width)
16:38:29 <elliott> I'd prefer it be agnostic to such "relocations"
16:38:32 <elliott> this is for human debugging
16:39:16 <ais523> hmm, someone came up with a known-plaintext attack against SSL and TLS a couple of days ago, and I only found a reference to the story today
16:39:43 <ais523> and apparently known-plaintext is generally possible to pull off atm, even though it's not the easiest sort of attack to manage
16:41:01 <ais523> (apparently the usual trick is an XSS-like thing that injects a huge amount of plaintext)
16:41:47 <elliott> but seriously, human-readable binary diff? anyone? no?
16:42:13 <ais523> what about this: express both binaries as images, diff by eye
16:42:13 <CakeProphet> 1) translate binaries to human-readable format 2) apply diff
16:42:32 <ais523> I suppose that if binary = executable, disassemble + diff might work
16:42:55 <elliott> ais523: Images aren't relocation-insensitive
16:43:32 <ais523> yep, getting output in that format seems rather harder
16:43:33 <elliott> so that e.g. a missing field doesn't cause cascading diff errors
16:44:42 <ais523> well, I mean, with visual diffing, you'd see it as a translation in the pixels of an image after a certain point, but not before
16:44:56 <ais523> are you going to admit the exact use-case? someone might have a better idea
16:44:59 <elliott> indeed, but that's still hard to diff
16:45:07 <elliott> ais523: sure, my serialisation of packets is wrong
16:45:17 <elliott> and I want to see where my errors are
16:45:25 <ais523> (the thing I love about this channel is that "how can I do X using Y?" isn't answered "don't use Y" but "that seems weird, here's the best way I can think of..."
16:45:33 <elliott> parse | print-readable produces very reasonable output and it's gone through many debugging cycles
16:45:37 <elliott> but serialisation hasn't been tested at all
16:45:40 <fizzie> ais523: "Came up with -- a couple of days ago" -- the known-IV weakness has been known since 2004, and was fixed in TLS 1.1 in 2006.
16:45:42 <elliott> and I'm not sure where to start
16:45:46 <ais523> and you're serialising to a binary format?
16:45:54 <ais523> fizzie: well, maybe people actually found a way to exploit it
16:45:57 <elliott> the smallest packet dump I can get is like ten kilobytes
16:46:02 <ais523> and that's what caused the stories to start
16:46:16 <ais523> parse is a filter from text to binary?
16:46:27 <fizzie> ais523: http://eprint.iacr.org/2004/111.pdf from 2004 describes a practical way to exploit it, using a browser plugin; it's very likely to be pretty much exactly like the currently hyped thing.
16:46:57 <elliott> ais523: no, parse is binary to memory-format
16:47:06 <elliott> unparse is memory-to-serialisation
16:47:34 <ais523> so the input itself is binary, and the output of unparse is meant to be the same binary format
16:47:42 <ais523> but the file you get is different, and you're not sure how
16:47:51 <elliott> and I'm pretty sure the parse type is right
16:48:05 <ais523> it's probably best to start off by seeing how many bytes are different, I think
16:48:09 <ais523> and whether it's substitution/insertion/deletion
16:48:19 <ais523> od with a width of 1 and diff would work for that, I think
16:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, convert it into 1s and 0s and then use normal diff.
16:49:02 <ais523> meanwhile, the US government has recently made it illegal to patent tax loopholes
16:49:10 <ais523> or possibly impossible
16:49:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: diff is line-based
16:49:22 <fizzie> It's also (to pick some nits) not exactly a known-plaintext attack. If anything, it could be sort-of called a chosen-plaintext attack.
16:49:43 <elliott> Hmm, what we really need is a diff that works on entirely freeform data, not line-based.
16:49:46 <elliott> And does that resynchronisation.
16:49:53 <elliott> Then you can just do it on one-line hexdumps.
16:50:02 <elliott> And reformat the output to have a nice number of columns.
16:50:20 <ais523> <Phantom_Hoover> Put each byte on its own line. <-- what I was saying
16:50:32 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, good point
16:50:36 <ais523> that's even harder than known-plaintext
16:51:06 <ineiros> fizzie: I think I bought more than 5 SICPs, actually; since I still have several. I think I've given at least one as a gift, and sold 3.
16:52:00 <fizzie> ineiros: Have you made any money with your SICP speculation?
16:52:04 <elliott> I should probably learn how to use od instead of hexdump.
16:52:17 <elliott> ais523: I'm tempted to write that free-form diff even though I'm sure it exists.
16:52:38 <ais523> od has a reasonably unintuitive options syntax
16:52:43 <ais523> I keep checking the manpage whenever I use it
16:54:24 <monqy> Gun Control Kills Kids!
16:55:14 <monqy> http://jpfo.org/images07/buster-350-pre-png-aliased.gif
16:55:21 <elliott> ok this is just like the most bad thing I don't think we even have anything to discuss about this
16:55:41 <elliott> ais523: does od have an equivalent to hexdump's -C?
16:55:51 <elliott> -C being "give me reasonable output" :-P
16:56:14 <ais523> what do you mean by "reasonable"?
16:56:33 <ais523> -t x1z is what duplicates most hexdump programs I've seen
16:57:02 <elliott> 0113400 a0 59 7f 41 d5 99 93 01 0d 40 72 af 8d 8b a1 fd >.Y.A.....@r.....<
16:57:02 <elliott> 0113420 9e 40 00 00 40 44 ec af c5 ce 90 >.@EO\)...@D.....<
16:57:02 <elliott> 0116700 12 01 0b 40 72 b6 7d 5b b1 b7 f0 40 44 80 00 00 >...@r.}[...@D...<
16:57:04 <elliott> something went wrong there...
16:57:12 <cheater> does anyone know how to make dwarf fortress use a bigger font?
16:57:35 <ais523> super-mousewheelup? </troll>
16:57:37 <elliott> ais523: -w 1 seems /enlarge/ the number of bytes per line...
16:57:44 <elliott> ais523: also, it's actually scroll wheel up
16:58:04 <ais523> super-mousewheelup is my keybinding for telling the WM to zoom in
16:58:08 <elliott> oh, I just needed to omit the space between flag and argument, sigh
16:58:13 <ineiros> fizzie: I think I paid 20€ for my own copy, and it may be that I asked 20 € for the copies I sold, so I guess that I'm at least even.
16:58:31 <cheater> ais523: i think that doesn't work
16:58:43 <fizzie> "Adding a z suffix to any type displays printable characters at the end of each output line." <- whoa, I didn't know it did that.
16:58:49 <ais523> cheater: well, you're probably using a different compositor to me
16:58:53 <elliott> is cheater actually disregarding my correct answer just because it's from me
16:59:07 <ais523> cheater: elliott suggested mousewheelup without super, I don't know if it works or not
16:59:18 <cheater> there was a correct answer from him?
16:59:22 <cheater> let me read the scrollback
16:59:30 <fizzie> Unfortunately the "z" in od is not in POSIX od.
16:59:32 <cheater> that actually needs announcement
17:00:04 <cheater> no, his answer was not correct
17:00:18 * elliott adjusts his dwarf fortress font size a bit
17:00:35 <cheater> mouse wheel up makes it smaller, mouse wheel down cannot make it any bigger than it is already
17:01:09 <elliott> then one character should fill about a fifth of your screen so I'd say it's big enough
17:01:58 -!- sllide has joined.
17:02:42 <elliott> ais523: thanks, I think this will let me pinpoint the solution
17:02:48 <elliott> diff -y --suppress-common-lines is great
17:03:01 <ais523> what does --suppress-common-lines do? or -y, for that matter?
17:03:17 <elliott> --suppress-common-lines does what it says on the tin
17:03:30 <elliott> I'm not entirely sure why it's in diff, but oh well
17:03:34 <ais523> do the context options interact with that in any way?
17:05:01 <elliott> hmm, now what I really need is this annotated with the pretty parsed versions of the packets :)
17:05:06 <elliott> maybe I should just teach Wireshark the Minecraft protocol
17:05:56 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, I'm just converting the test program to iterIO and checking that my serialisation... you know, works.
17:05:59 <elliott> It seems the answer is "almost".
17:06:25 <fizzie> http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/games/video/minecraft/minecraft-dissector.html "Minecraft Dissector for WireShark"
17:06:35 <elliott> I don't think I'm going to try that.
17:06:36 <fizzie> Usually that sort of things tend to.
17:06:49 <fizzie> "'m using it to develop a Perl library (Minecraft::Client) for speaking the Minecraft protocol. It's forked from Scott Brooks's dissector. Scott provided a great starting point, but it hadn't been updated to the Beta."
17:12:15 <CakeProphet> elliott: I don't really see how it would be statistically likely for the n-grams to generate an existing word.
17:12:27 <CakeProphet> as each word only contributes one to the frequency of each of its n-grams.
17:19:47 <elliott> "Artist's conception of soul joining the fertilized egg at conception." --Conservapedia caption
17:20:32 <elliott> http://www.conservapedia.com/Human_reproduction
17:20:37 <elliott> Spiritual aspects section is best.
17:20:51 <elliott> "Humans are not able to reproduce alone by budding, parthenogenesis, or self-cloning as some species are capable of."
17:22:48 <elliott> It would make a good album cover.
17:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/sdarrin/My-Lego-Sets/7251.jpg
17:25:33 <elliott> ais523: it turns out that this od diff method is great for getting an initial lead but useless for going further than that :D
17:25:55 <elliott> so I'm not sure where to go next, really
17:25:57 <fizzie> What have you broken this time?
17:27:25 <Gregor> `pastelogs thou shalt not
17:27:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15122
17:28:00 <fizzie> Thou shalt not be impatient with thy logs.
17:28:45 <Gregor> "However, there has never been any evidence presented that the soul can enter the body at any time later than conception." lololol
17:28:49 <elliott> fizzie: mchost's serialisation.
17:29:04 <fizzie> Oh, not de- this time?
17:29:17 <elliott> Gregor: As opposed to all the evidence presented that the soul can enter the body at conception :P
17:29:34 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, I think de- has been pretty thoroughly tested by this point.
17:29:41 <Gregor> elliott: EXTENSIVE LITERATURE SUGGESTS
17:29:45 <elliott> As opposed to , which hasn't been tested at all.
17:29:48 <elliott> (Prefix words: problematic.)
17:30:04 <Gregor> "The ultimate act of intimacy serves to unite the male and female gametes, the sperm and egg, respectively." // this is pretty great too
17:30:16 <Gregor> Sure sounds ultimately intimate, dunnit.
17:35:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2006-08-08
17:36:18 <elliott> Gregor: I already logurl'd that :P
17:36:49 <Gregor> Uhh, if you did, you did it secretly :P
17:40:03 <elliott> Why don't we have applicative-based (de-)serialisation isomorphism combinator things yet again
17:41:42 <Gregor> Talk:Human Reproduction is almost as good as the page.
17:42:15 <elliott> Soul Conception by Human Reproduction
17:42:15 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/images/9/93/Soul_Conception.jpg
17:42:19 <elliott> Out December on Conservative Records
17:42:50 <CakeProphet> elliott: so I was thinking for functions on discrete signals it would be best to pass the sample rate as an implicit parameter, yes?
17:43:20 <elliott> Implicit parameters are a misfeature and should never be used; nobody at all wants them to stay in the language, and they've been used approximately once.
17:43:32 <Gregor> I DESPERATELY want to shoop that image to make it "crisper" but also shoop in that weird creepy happy face that people like to shoop into things.
17:43:33 <CakeProphet> I feel the implicit parameter would be more convenient though...
17:43:42 <elliott> There's no reason to fix the sample rate at a set value; there's no reason it cannot vary within the same set of data. [(Time,a)] where a is the value being sampled captures that perfectly.
17:44:02 <elliott> If there is a fixed sample rate, it can be computed from the constant difference between each Time.
17:44:32 <elliott> I note that the continuous (Time -> a) and discrete [(Time,a)] signal models are exactly the models of Behaviour and Event in FRP.
17:44:49 <elliott> Gregor: Which weird creepy happy face?
17:45:10 <Gregor> elliott: Apparently that's the name for it, according to google :P
17:45:18 <fizzie> It's creepy and happy.
17:45:26 <CakeProphet> elliott: also you were saying that there would be no need to convert continuous to discrete or vice versa if differing signal representations shared a common interface
17:45:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:45:29 <elliott> Also Gregor didn't specify "abominable", so...
17:45:32 <CakeProphet> but I'm at a loss as to what interface that would be.
17:45:37 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/ADA_(programming_language) ;; they miscapitalised Ada. Burn.
17:45:56 <Gregor> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/awesome-face-epic-smiley <-- this guy
17:45:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: Build them with separate interfaces, find the operations common to both, define laws for them, create typeclass
17:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "It is equal in power to Java and is especially popular for programming embedded systems."
17:46:06 <elliott> Or just keep it monomorphic if it works.
17:46:15 <elliott> awesome-face-epic-smiley <- augh
17:46:30 <Gregor> elliott: Don't looka me :P
17:46:53 <Gregor> Anyway, that on the egg :P
17:47:08 <elliott> The program, and detailed technical commentary, appeared in the paper "Sketch of the Analytical Engine Invented by Charles Babbage" that Ada wrote in 1843. The program itself has been reproduced in the "sidebar" on page 79. It can also be seen in the original paper. First there is a list of the six input and output variables that are used: V1, V2, V3, V21, V22 and V23. And the temporary variables V4 through V13. In modern terminology in a s
17:47:08 <elliott> trongly typed language such as C++, we would write something like:
17:47:08 <elliott> int V21, V22, V23; // outputs
17:47:10 <elliott> int V4, V5, V6, V7, V8, V9, V10, V11, V12, V13; // temps
17:47:35 <elliott> (She used the old-fashioned multiply and divide signs "[X sign]" and "[dots over - sign]". These seem quaint by today's standards, but they were the symbols that people used at the time. Neither the 026 keypunch nor the ASCII character set had been invented.)
17:47:42 <elliott> So old-fashioned, we use them in our schools today.
17:48:00 <elliott> Or has America standardised on the asterisk multiplication symbol and the slash divisor
17:48:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Note "schools".
17:48:13 <fizzie> Conservapedia: the best way to learn how to program?
17:48:51 <elliott> [[conservapedia:Ada Lovelace]] is disappointingly light on THAT WIMMEN CAN'T HAVE DONE PROGRAMMED IT SHE MUST HAVE GOT HER HUSBAND TO DO IT.
17:48:52 <ais523> elliott: wasn't Ada invented before capital letters? so it would have been written ADA at the time?
17:48:56 <ais523> *before lowercase letters
17:49:32 <CakeProphet> elliott: on conservapedia America is the best place with the best opinions.
17:49:53 <elliott> Evolutionary algorithms can be seen as an experimental test of Darwin's theory of evolution, and their eventual failure can be seen as a refutation of that theory[Citation Needed].
17:49:56 <elliott> thank god for integer programming
17:51:01 <CakeProphet> I wonder how many contribute to conservapedia as a parody of conservative opinions.
17:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, as a RationalWiki veteran, I can confirm that most of them do.
17:52:04 <elliott> Swift. What was WITH that dude? Why did he even write about eating babies.
17:52:10 <elliott> He should have wrote about the virtues of not eating babies.
17:52:13 <elliott> That would be less bizarre.
17:53:09 <CakeProphet> elliott: note that spending large amounts of time contributing to a resource of information with a conservative viewpoint entirely for satirical purposes is quite different from satire itself
17:56:37 <ais523> didn't Conservapedia famously threaten to sue trolls?
17:56:40 <ais523> did they ever go through with it?
17:57:18 <elliott> ais523: Their "Commandments" state all sorts of threatening legal things if you do bad things.
17:57:25 <elliott> "Unproductive activity, such as 90% talk page edits and only 10% quality edits to Conservapedia articles, may result in blocking of the account. See the Guidelines for more detail."
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17:57:29 <elliott> Metapedians: literally the devil.
17:57:55 <ais523> they'll probably end up with their infrastructure suffering
17:58:11 <elliott> ais523: They don't have any infrastructure.
17:58:26 <CakeProphet> dadaopedia is the best of the hypothetical opinionated encyclopedias.
17:58:34 <ais523> so how do they, say, decide what to delete?
17:58:56 <elliott> CakeProphet: Is that where everyone is really boring and tries to ~approach art~ by being ~random~?
17:59:09 <elliott> ais523: Fiat, warring, arguments, personal threats, cabals
17:59:14 <elliott> So, just like Wikipedia, but smaller
17:59:46 <ais523> elliott: have you never heard of Bjorn?
18:00:07 <elliott> ais523: That didn't approach art, that /was/ art.
18:00:14 <CakeProphet> elliott: dadaism isn't really "lol random"
18:01:06 <elliott> CakeProphet: It is when filtered through the internet's awful lens that decides to take, like, discordianism, dadaism, and about ten other things, and mix them together into the most boring concept imaginable.
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18:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> didn't Conservapedia famously threaten to sue trolls?
18:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> They threatened to report vandals to the FBI and charge them under anti-somethingorother laws.
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18:25:12 <ais523> elliott: did you see the extreme negative code documentation page via proggit?
18:25:44 <ais523> I would comment on it, but can't think of an appropriate comment
18:26:19 <elliott> #N If we don't require 'based', we can't use Based:: module
18:26:20 <elliott> #N If we don't require 'synqa', we can't use Synqa:: module
18:26:20 <elliott> #N If we don't require 'digest/sha2', we can't use Digest::SHA256
18:26:34 <elliott> #N Without :uploaddry, the only way to see what files are going to be uploaded and/or deleted by :upload is to actually call :upload and do the actual uploading and deleting.
18:26:38 <elliott> cool, it's like writing the code you were going to write
18:26:41 <elliott> but in a really awkward tense
18:26:48 <elliott> and without any sort of checking by the computer
18:27:06 <ais523> yep, I think it's the wrong level of granularity
18:27:19 <ais523> some of the comments are useful, but you're going to mentally filter them with that many useless
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18:29:47 <elliott> "So far, #reddit has increased my daily traffic 30000%, and still growing. Just under 3000 hits today." -- embedded twitter feed of someone with a post from reddit
18:29:49 <elliott> a whole three thousand hits
18:30:18 <Ngevd> If all my facebook friends visited a page twice, it would have more hits than that
18:30:42 <ais523> elliott: rather than their usual 10
18:30:58 <ais523> Ngevd: how would you get all your facebook friends to do that?
18:31:19 <elliott> ais523: no, usual one tenth
18:31:35 <Ngevd> ais523: With great difficulty
18:31:36 <elliott> Ngevd: quick, get all your facebook friends to visit that blog post twice
18:32:26 <fizzie> If all my Google+ friends were to visit a page twice, I'd have 8 hits. And I might even be able to convince them.
18:32:34 <elliott> http://poita.org/index.php/blog/1-latest-news/67-thoughts-on-immutability-in-d, it's boring but WHO CARES
18:34:14 <elliott> No no no SPECULATIVE science.
18:34:23 <elliott> We need someone to catch the reference. At least Gregor. Come on, anyone?
18:34:34 <ais523> if all my Facebook friends were to visit a page, it wouldn't make any difference at all
18:34:45 <monqy> whats facebook friends
18:35:01 <Ngevd> Something I have way to many of, monqy
18:35:41 <Ngevd> One thousand eight hundred and twenty five
18:35:44 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> if all my Facebook friends were to visit a page, it wouldn't make any difference at all
18:35:45 <HackEgo> 678) <ais523> if all my Facebook friends were to visit a page, it wouldn't make any difference at all
18:35:53 <ais523> elliott: it's not that good a quote
18:36:46 <HackEgo> 378) <ais523> the big issue with category theory is that pretty much everything forms a category
18:36:54 <HackEgo> 402) <elliott> Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
18:36:59 <HackEgo> 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
18:37:03 <HackEgo> 181) <ais523> you should be eating corpses more
18:37:08 <HackEgo> 296) <elliott_> I'm a bit 'tarded.
18:37:11 <elliott> That was one alternate universe quote, quality is guaranteed.
18:37:13 <elliott> What, that one isterrible.
18:37:14 <HackEgo> 275) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:37:33 <HackEgo> 481) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills
18:37:40 <HackEgo> 308) <fizzie> file:///home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png -- yes, I think it's nice that way when the edge is always the opponent's flag.
18:37:57 <ais523> why is that in the qdb?
18:38:05 <ais523> some innuendo I haven't spotted?
18:38:27 <fizzie> It's just mocking my file:/// URI.
18:38:27 <elliott> ais523: linking to file:///
18:38:37 <ais523> I was even tempted to visit that URL
18:38:47 <elliott> I clicked open but nothing happened :(
18:38:48 <HackEgo> 347) <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
18:38:55 <ais523> my client didn't autolink it
18:38:58 <HackEgo> 143) <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
18:39:04 <ais523> I still stand behind my opinion in 247
18:39:07 <fizzie> "Firefox can't find the file at /home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png." :( :(
18:39:10 <HackEgo> 247) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
18:39:29 <elliott> -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: Elliottemail@example.com on Sep 22 14:31:14 2011.
18:39:42 <elliott> I need to figure out what nick that guy is using and punish them.
18:40:02 <ais523> elliott: someone else trying to log into your account?
18:40:08 <ais523> ~3lli0tt is a really awful username
18:40:15 <elliott> this ain't yer username, kiddo >:(
18:40:22 <elliott> I should start using elliott_ and /whoising elliott periodically to catch them
18:40:32 <elliott> or just set up a bot to ghost elliott constantly if it's not logged in
18:40:37 <elliott> that's better than the thirty second grace period
18:40:41 <elliott> five seconds, bam, ghosted
18:41:17 <ais523> hmm, it seems I mentally pronounce 3lli0tt as "threlliott"
18:41:32 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/user/3lli0tt <- same guy?-)
18:41:33 <monqy> wow in addition to elliottcable and elliottt there is also an elliot
18:41:34 -!- elliott has changed nick to threlliott.
18:41:52 <ais523> I'm not sure whether my pronunciation of it ends with one or two t's
18:41:57 <ais523> because they're pronounced the same
18:42:33 <threlliott> fizzie: this morning i saw thor pawning his hammer at the store
18:54:25 <lambdabot> Prelude read :: Read a => String -> a
18:54:25 <lambdabot> Text.Read read :: Read a => String -> a
18:54:34 <lambdabot> Prelude readIO :: Read a => String -> IO a
18:54:35 <lambdabot> System.IO readIO :: Read a => String -> IO a
18:54:37 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol maybeRead :: Read a => String -> Maybe a
18:55:06 <lambdabot> forall a. (Read a) => String -> [(a, String)]
19:04:32 <ais523> wow, unexpected: tPCI release the rules for the 2012 Pokémon Video Game Championships, competitive Pokémon players actually like them
19:04:40 <ais523> both halves are unexpected for me
19:09:53 <Ngevd> I need a CLOTH TAPE MEASURE
19:10:20 <pikhq> Y'know, traditional monolithic kernels provide a very *strange* form of abstraction.
19:10:54 <pikhq> They present an environment that is both very low-level *and* has little to do with what common machines actually do.
19:14:31 <pikhq> I mean, they do crazy things like present an idea of memory allocation that is *not* in terms of "Place a page in my address space at address foo, kthx"
19:17:11 <pikhq> And the fuck is with files? It's such a painfully low-level scheme, and yet the low-level abstraction that would make sense would be something along the lines of allocating disk blocks to do with as you will.
19:17:39 <threlliott> I was hating on Unix, files before it was cool.
19:17:58 <pikhq> threlliott: This rant is provided by me trying to get a basic kernel running.
19:18:11 <pikhq> And wondering "why the *fuck* does anyone do anything like this".
19:18:23 <threlliott> Kernels are also an outdated notion, if you're going to whine.
19:19:06 <monqy> @ always and forever
19:19:30 <pikhq> Well, yeah, ideally a "kernel" would be a startup routine which would start a scheduler.
19:20:46 <threlliott> pikhq: Schedulers are also relatively obsolete, at least in the sense of having one and only one. Usually you'd want some entity using timers to manage the event chains and switch out the operational code of entities underneath its control, but there's no reason a privileged entity might not decide to disable interrupts, shut down the other cores, and manually co-opt out.
19:21:09 <threlliott> All a startup routine should do is restore the previous state; choices like schedulers are a matter of initial configuration.
19:21:16 <threlliott> (This is also simpler than writing a kernel.)
19:22:03 <pikhq> threlliott: Note I didn't say *the* scheduler.
19:22:24 <threlliott> Why should the startup routine concern itself with whether any scheduler exists at all?
19:22:32 <threlliott> It is trivially possible to have a valid configuration without one.
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19:22:47 <threlliott> (Say one privileged, atomic entity drawing garbage over the screen forever.)
19:23:42 <pikhq> Well, if you've got orthogonal persistance going (which you probably should)... Then it's more a matter of basic startup followed by restoring registers and jumping to the instruction pointer.
19:24:24 <pikhq> Or, more high-level (because why should your programs all be straight machine code?), just calling the continuation.
19:25:59 <threlliott> The startup code should just call a continuation, which will most likely set up persistence code from a fixed (or easily-locatable) location on the disk, and then call another continuation, which will result in the entire system state being restored as part of its execution.
19:26:03 <pikhq> Anyways. Traditional kernel design *seems* to basically be "write a support library for your programming language of choice, write some basic utilities, interrupt handlers, and drivers, and then hand userspace a small handful of comically low-level interfaces into this"
19:27:33 -!- threlliott has changed nick to elliott.
19:28:15 <pikhq> The kernel gets its own damned runtime library, simply because running machine code directly necessitates that there be no more advanced interfaces between the kernel and the program other than, basically, the standard UNIX complement.
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19:29:53 <pikhq> And there's rather a lot of work that goes into maintaining this complete seperation, too. I mean, jeeze, a typical kernel maintains a page table per process, and switches them and entirely flushes the TLB on task switch.
19:30:26 <pikhq> Simply because there's no other way of providing sane guarantees with a machine code environment.
19:30:43 -!- tiffnya has changed nick to tiffany.
19:31:04 -!- tiffany has changed nick to tiffany|away.
19:31:16 -!- tiffany|away has changed nick to tiffany.
19:33:08 <CakeProphet> This is really considered evidence of anything? I've heard Mark Levin use the Spanish-inflected pronunciation of Sonia Sotomayor's name (so tow my OR rather than so tow MY er), but nobody would claim that proves he's Catholic or Hispanic. Golgaronok 23:55, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
19:33:12 <CakeProphet> Pronunciation shows an enormous amount about someone's views and history. Obama doesn't use the American pronunciation, and this is telling, since no one else in the public sphere pronounces it in the muslim way but Obama. DouglasA 00:15, 10 April 2010 (EDT)
19:33:50 <oerjan> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it's for conservatives, so they'll either be rich, or act as if they're rich in every situation despite not being rich.
19:34:11 <CakeProphet> monqy: Obama apparently pronounces Pakistan "the muslim way"
19:34:26 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: it's quite convincing and hilarious. :D
19:34:32 <oerjan> reminds me of this newspaper quip i read that american poor don't see themselves as poor, but as temporarily inconvenienced millionaires
19:34:54 <oerjan> well the conservative poor, anyway
19:34:59 <pikhq> Impressive, considering there's not a single "Muslim way", particularly for a country as linguistically diverse as Pakistan.
19:35:00 <elliott> oerjan: I was inspired by that, admittedly. :p
19:35:06 <CakeProphet> no, american poor see themselves as poor. american middle class see themselves as poor.
19:36:06 <oerjan> CakeProphet: the idea here being to explain them supporting the rich by them having some idea that eventually they were going to be rich too. i think.
19:36:44 <oerjan> "american dream" turned into a dogma, was my impression.
19:37:07 <pikhq> I blame Horatio Alger.
19:37:15 <CakeProphet> well they support the rich because rich people (aka conservative politicians) use a batshit stupid retoric they can understand.
19:40:46 <ais523> what's the usual path for per-user webpages on a UNIXy-setup server?
19:40:48 <CakeProphet> like, conservatives get poor people votes because they appeal to religion/intolerance.
19:40:52 <ais523> that is, the in-/home version of /var/www?
19:55:17 <ais523> it seems to be the easiest way to manage what I'm doing for my job atm
19:55:37 <ais523> as it exists on the University computers
19:55:53 <ais523> atm, there's just a .html file there full of PHP tags
19:56:00 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's being served as-is or run through PHP first
20:02:49 <pikhq> CERN has apparently observed particles moving >C.
20:03:20 <ais523> indeed, they're not sure what's going on either
20:03:34 <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
20:03:42 <ais523> they're hoping it's some sort of systematic error
20:03:42 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
20:03:44 <HackEgo> 678) <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
20:05:23 <elliott> I really hope that it turns out faster than light travel is possible, it's exactly like Star Trek, all current physics has to be replaced by technobabble...
20:05:32 <elliott> Then we just need Zefram Cochrane and the plot is WELL IN ORDER.
20:05:40 <ais523> apparently neutrinos arrived 60ns sooner than should have been possible, experimental error margin is believed to be 10ns
20:05:41 <elliott> OK so technically we missed some wars and shit but who cares.
20:05:50 <ais523> and if they can run the experiment 15000 times in a row, presumably it's quite easy to reproduce
20:06:51 <pikhq> I'm not sure I'd go with "easy".
20:06:59 <pikhq> "Possible to do consistently", perhaps.
20:07:13 <elliott> "If this is confirmed, this is one of the most important moments in science and human history. This should be at the top of the front page for days.
20:07:13 <elliott> Instead it will probably be out paced by a picture of someone's cat.
20:07:13 <elliott> EDIT: just occurred to me, faster then light particles could have interesting consequences in the field of data transmission. something to think about"
20:07:22 <elliott> reddit commentors: So stupid.
20:07:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the citation's to a Slashdot comment
20:07:39 <elliott> "HEY GUYS THIS IS FTL TRAVEL THIS IS HUGE. EDIT: Whoaa, if you could go faster than light you could... transfer data... faster than light..."
20:07:59 <ais523> so how long is light meant to take to go 732km, anyway?
20:08:31 <pikhq> 0.0024168918 seconds
20:08:39 <elliott> wow that's fast. light is fast.
20:08:55 <pikhq> (methodology: google "732km in lightseconds")
20:08:56 <ais523> wow, milliseconds? that's slower than I expected
20:09:13 <elliott> ais523: Light is actually pretty slow, in honesty.
20:09:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, they were sending a neutrino beam to another lab to see how many neutrinos spontaneously changed to other sorts of neutrinos
20:09:25 <ais523> and they arrived early
20:09:29 <pikhq> ais523: Consider that a decent chunk of Internet latency is from the speed of light.
20:09:32 <elliott> ais523: I mean, consider that at one point, university-to-university internet was getting at half the maximum theoretical light limit.
20:09:44 <elliott> (When that latency vs. bandwidth article was written.)
20:09:46 <pikhq> Though most of it is just hardware and software sucking.
20:09:48 <ais523> elliott: was it using optical fibre?
20:09:49 <elliott> And that was definitely a perceptible latency.
20:09:54 <elliott> ais523: I think copper? Might have been wrong.
20:10:15 <ais523> ouch, if it was copper, that seems like an inconvenient thing to use
20:10:18 <elliott> Point is, light is slow enough to create very noticable latency for us day-to-day.
20:10:26 <elliott> We can't even IRC to Mars :(
20:10:54 <elliott> The moon is a much better target for colonisation because it would be IRCable.
20:11:27 <pikhq> Yeah, the latency would be a *little* high, but TCP would still work just fine.
20:11:46 <ais523> pikhq: TCP can handle stupidly high latencies easily; most applications will stop waiting, though
20:11:51 <elliott> ais523: not with the kind of latency modern SMS users expect
20:12:01 <elliott> but irc is a basic human right and all :P
20:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ko638/if_the_particle_discovered_as_cern_is_proven/
20:12:14 <pikhq> ais523: TCP stacks generally time out after a few minutes.
20:12:20 <ais523> the other weird thing is that the particle alleged to have gone faster than light wasn't even a new one
20:12:41 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a bit strange that they saw this in something that's at least somewhat well-understood.
20:12:42 <ais523> pikhq: they don't /have/ to, though
20:12:46 <elliott> what is our actual light roundtrip latency to the moon?
20:12:47 <ais523> that's just an arbitrary decision
20:12:54 <ais523> elliott: it's about a second
20:13:09 <elliott> you could even browse the web like that
20:13:13 <elliott> although it'd be a bit painful
20:13:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the moon is like .25 million miles away or something.
20:13:25 <pikhq> Yeah, I've used the Internet on higher-latency links.
20:13:28 <ais523> elliott: you mean pages normally load within a second for you?
20:13:44 <ais523> I'm used to high bandwidth but high latency too
20:13:52 <pikhq> ais523: Um, it would take a second for the TCP connection to initialise.
20:14:10 <pikhq> Sorry, more than a second.
20:14:15 <ais523> loading anything in Chrome takes minutes
20:14:20 <elliott> searches definitely less than a second
20:14:25 <ais523> although that might be an issue
20:14:29 <elliott> ais523: /something/ is wrong with your configuration
20:14:34 <ais523> I only use it for testing websites, and for when I have to log into Google
20:14:46 <ais523> (I used to use Epiphany for that, but Chromium seems like the perfect browser for the purpose)
20:14:57 <elliott> I would live on a terraformed moon, it sounds like fun
20:15:10 <ais523> (what does it say about me that I mistrust Google enough to let them store cookies only on a browser I don't use for anything else)
20:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, other than the bit where a terraformed moon is impossible.
20:15:34 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/TerraformedMoonFromEarth.jpg
20:15:37 <elliott> DISPROVEN BY WIKIPEDIA IMAGES
20:15:44 <elliott> I like how they basically just took... a livable planet.
20:15:56 <elliott> And then tried to emulate craters.
20:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But anyway, see shavera's response in that link I have and — wait we have neutrino beams now?
20:16:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: why is a terraformed moon impossible? semantics pedantry? or something else?
20:16:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Particle accelerators can consistently produce neutrino beams.
20:16:41 <elliott> You can certainly create a liveable environment on the moon, even if it's not terraforming
20:16:49 <elliott> Might have to be under a dome though
20:16:51 <ais523> producing a neutrino beam isn't hard for particle physics experimenters
20:16:55 <ais523> it's detecting them that's hard
20:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, because I'm very sure you can't have a breathable atmosphere with only 1/6G to hold it down.
20:17:00 <ais523> as neutrinos tend not to interact with things much
20:17:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: terraforming has nothing to do with breathable atmosphere, right?
20:17:23 <elliott> Argh, I'm irrationally leaning on the side of the particles actually going FTL.
20:17:27 <elliott> Just because I want them to be.
20:17:27 <ais523> you could just use domes or something to keep the atmosphere in
20:17:50 <CakeProphet> I believe terraforming is the process of making a planet habitable.
20:17:54 <ais523> elliott: well, I take this as evidence for the theory that physics is being made up by some deity over time in order to screw with scientists
20:17:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if we lined just underneath the surface of the moon with graviton-infused metals.
20:18:08 <ais523> whenever they run an experiment, it's a case of "shall I make this consistent with existing theories? nah"
20:18:20 <ais523> or sometimes "yes", which is probably the default, I guess
20:18:20 <elliott> ais523: Reminds me of a certain Fine Structure chapter. (PH will now mock me for not having finished it yet and probably accidentally spoil me in the process.)
20:18:25 <CakeProphet> What about enough atmosphere for plant life?
20:18:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They would be the best Nobel prizes.
20:19:57 <elliott> i guess i am stuck with help guy now
20:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "As has been discussed here quite a bit by those smarter than I, the speed of light isn't just the fastest thing in the universe, like a world record. It's the literal maximum. It's what happens when you take your rpg stats and instead of putting most of them in 'time' and a handful in 'distance', as most matter does, you just dump everything into 'distance' and don't give a damn about your internal clock. It's the maxim
20:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> um speed that information itself can travel through the universe, which, if broken, can upset the laws of causality. I can't fathom what would happen if this result stands up to scrutiny."
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20:22:38 <ais523> oh right, the Pirate Party got 15 seats on the Berlin council
20:22:58 <ais523> and they hadn't expected to get nearly that many, that was all the candidates they'd put up for vote
20:23:09 <ais523> (it's a proportional-representation system)
20:24:23 <Vorpal> fuck alsa, I'm unable to figure out how to make it use dmix for one output device but not use dmix for another one
20:24:41 <Vorpal> maybe I'll just go OSSv4, but that sounds like a lot of work
20:25:49 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I use jack only when I'm running programs that benefit from it. Such as sound recording programs.
20:26:17 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: anyway it doesn't solve my main issue: one of my sound cards have proper hw mixer, the other one does not
20:26:25 <elliott> Is nobody going to mentioned that JACK doesn't actually go directly to hardware
20:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott: there is that too
20:26:46 <Vorpal> only alsa and oss do that
20:27:14 <ais523> strangely, Linux sound has mostly just-worked for me, with the exception that Pulse sometimes needs restarting for any sound to work, and that ALSA used to have issues detecting headphones
20:28:04 <CakeProphet> I thought jack at least allowed you to route things to different devices and such.
20:28:08 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> The moon is a much better target for colonisation because it would be IRCable.
20:28:10 <HackEgo> 679) <elliott> The moon is a much better target for colonisation because it would be IRCable.
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20:28:16 <Vorpal> another issue: nwn uses oss, and doesn't respect my default sound card as given in /etc/asound.conf (not surprising). No clue how to configure where ALSA's OSS emulation goes
20:28:38 <CakeProphet> obviously I wasn't suggesting he /replace/ alsa with jack. that wouldn't make any sense.
20:29:11 <Vorpal> ais523: I don't use pulse, it is horrible. Especially since it tends to conflict badly with jack in my experience
20:29:43 <Vorpal> IMO pulse doesn't really offer anything worth that extra layer.
20:30:01 <Vorpal> I don't need per-program volume levels for example.
20:30:06 <ais523> I've found per-application volume controls really valuable
20:30:13 <ais523> mostly to balance Flash against Totem
20:30:31 <Vorpal> ais523: why would you listen to two things at once?
20:30:46 <ais523> you might switch between them a lot
20:31:02 <ais523> and it's important to me to get the volume control range usable
20:31:10 <ais523> I don't want the usable range of the volume control to be all at one end of the scale
20:31:28 <Vorpal> ais523: well for me it varies widely what is reasonable between my pro audio headphones and my cheap creative headset
20:31:31 <ais523> especially because I use both headphones and speakers, which have different sound output levels at the same on-computer volumes
20:32:11 <Vorpal> I mean, I can not use the same volume settings. It would destroy my hearing when switching from the cheap headset to the good headphones
20:33:25 <Vorpal> ais523: oh that too, my laptop has widely different level on speaker and headphones. I need near max when using the built in speakers, though I avoid that, terrible sound quality. And near mute when using my pro audio headphones.
20:33:39 <Vorpal> the cheap headset: somewhere in between
20:35:01 <Vorpal> "[ALSA has] Better support for MIDI devices. With OSS you will have to use a software synthesizer such as Timidity or Fluidsynth. " according https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/OSS, if that is true, OSSv4 is not an option for me. I need hardware midi
20:35:25 <ais523> why do you need hardware MIDI?
20:35:28 <ais523> it's a strange thing to randomly need
20:35:49 <Vorpal> ais523: because I have a keyboard I attach to the hw midi port on my PCI sound card
20:36:41 <Vorpal> ais523: oh and midi over USB is bad in my experience, USB has higher latency
20:37:13 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: hardware midi with midi cable works just fine
20:37:17 <ais523> when I compose, it's using physical piano + rosegarden for entering the tune into a computer when I'm done
20:37:18 <Vorpal> never had any issues with that
20:37:40 <Vorpal> ais523: I just hook up rosegarden to my electrical piano by MIDI
20:38:10 <CakeProphet> no I mean the protocol itself is limiting.
20:38:20 <CakeProphet> it works fine for responding to keypresses and stuff though.
20:40:07 <CakeProphet> but as a general purpose "musical instrument digital interface" it is lacking in some regards.
20:40:33 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: it works for what I use it for though.
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20:42:25 <Vorpal> what does it stand for?
20:43:17 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: that sounds like a terrible idea for a real time application like sound in a studio recording environment
20:44:37 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: ethernet offers no guarantees on the latency. If you use a switched topology the switch may or may not delay your packet in internal buffers for example.
20:44:44 <CakeProphet> hardware support is kind of limited, but a lot of high-end devices support it, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemur_Input_Device
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20:46:58 <pikhq> And common Ethernet devices have rather absurd buffering, adding further latency.
20:47:17 <pikhq> And the default buffering on Linux is itself absurd.
20:47:19 <CakeProphet> but if it's connected directly to your computer you wouldn't have these problems would you?
20:47:41 <pikhq> The far-too-high buffering *is layered*.
20:48:03 <Vorpal> MIDI at least offers some real time guarantees.
20:48:06 <CakeProphet> does changing the buffer mode on the socket not fix this I gather?
20:48:27 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: not for the hardware buffering at least.
20:48:51 <pikhq> That can change the kernel buffering.
20:49:15 <CakeProphet> actually OSC is typically transmitted over USB from input device to computer.
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20:50:44 <Vorpal> USB has inferior latency compared to MIDI again. Just look at MIDI over USB. Only usable as a toy really.
20:51:18 <CakeProphet> The advantages of OSC over MIDI are primarily speed and throughput; internet connectivity; data type resolution; and the comparative ease of specifying a symbolic path, as opposed to specifying all connections as 7-bit numbers with 7-bit or 14-bit data types
20:51:41 <Vorpal> doesn't say over which transport
20:52:15 <Vorpal> "A standard for MIDI over USB was developed in 1999 as a joint effort between IBM, Microsoft, Altec Lansing, Roland Corporation, and Philips. To transmit MIDI over USB a Cable Number and Cable Index are added to the message, and the result is encapsulated in a USB packet. The resulting USB message can be double the size of the native MIDI message. Since USB is over 15,000 times faster than MIDI (480,
20:52:15 <Vorpal> 000 Kbits/sec vs 31.25 Kbits/sec,) USB has the potential to be much faster. However, due to the nature of USB there is more latency and jitter introduced that is usually in the range of 2 to 10 ms, or about 2 to 10 MIDI commands. Some comparisons done in the early part of the 2000s showed USB to slightly slower with higher latency, and this is still the case today."
20:54:00 <CakeProphet> OSC is nice because you can actually send audio data if you need to.
20:55:18 <Vorpal> "OSC messages between gestural controllers are usually transmitted over serial endpoints of USB by being wrapped in the SLIP protocol." <-- what, why SLIP?
20:57:38 <CakeProphet> maybe it makes it easier to transmit over IP later?
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21:15:53 <ais523> how can it take 3 minutes to email gmail from my own computer?
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22:26:27 <ais523> OK, it finally arrived
22:26:52 <ais523> it took over half an hour for an email to a gmail account to arrive in the account's inbox after it had already arrived at Google itself, based on the received headers
22:27:00 <ais523> how is that acceptable service for email nowadays?
22:28:08 <pikhq> Jeeze, I would've expected that shit when there wasn't any hard guarantee that your email was actually routing over the Internet.
22:28:15 <oerjan> it's just all the neutrinos stealing the speed
22:36:08 -!- ive has joined.
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22:37:45 * Sgeo|web vaguely wonders if there are alternatives to Mibbit which allow Freenode
22:38:25 -!- augur has joined.
22:39:28 <ais523> Sgeo|web: Freenode blocked Mibbit, not the other way round
22:40:38 * Sgeo|web is aware of this, but was being untechnical in his question
22:40:53 <Sgeo|web> Or I might not have been entirely thinking when I asked it. Not sure.
22:41:48 <Sgeo|web> There's the one that's currently free but soon won't be :/
22:42:56 * oerjan notes that it is easy to misread untechnical as unethical
22:43:25 <CakeProphet> oerjan: maybe if you're an old blind norseman.
22:44:22 <CakeProphet> I like to imagine him stylistically as an old wise man. Like Odin.
22:44:46 <CakeProphet> you know because that's Norse mythology and stuff.
22:45:04 * oerjan hits cheater with his cane J=====O
22:46:27 <oerjan> CakeProphet: also, i'm not missing an eye
22:47:07 <CakeProphet> yes but you share your great wisdom of past and future.
22:47:36 <oerjan> it's just the neutrinos affecting my brain
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22:50:01 <CakeProphet> you are the balanced elderly force of wisdom that synergizes with elliott's rash youthful spunk and ingenuity.
22:53:49 <CakeProphet> no the gr g is the initial of his name and the r is the last charater of his first name.
22:54:30 <CakeProphet> because Gregor is actually Roger G. as I've proven on several occasions.
22:54:57 <oerjan> if you say so, Tehpor Pekac
22:56:26 <CakeProphet> but the cosmic janitor is equally important
22:56:39 <CakeProphet> as he maintains the order of the two contrasting forces.
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23:36:06 <Gregor> <CakeProphet> Gregor is the grouchy janitor. >_> <CakeProphet> Gregor: don't tell him I said that // ... wut