< 1317168520 493894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: apparently "???" are valid identifier characters... < 1317168573 979393 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course < 1317168577 474538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wat < 1317168607 888145 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let test ??? x = test+x in 2 ??? 2 < 1317168608 973577 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4 < 1317168613 698344 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: valid /non-operator/ < 1317168621 343343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just a TH "bug" < 1317168623 818055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, wat < 1317168631 201673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it's TH creating the names < 1317168653 592629 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean with makeName or whatever it is? yeah you can put whatever you want in there < 1317168663 543978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1317168666 637786 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: istr in a previous discussion someone mentioned the only requirement for TH is the first char has the right case < 1317168670 472245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nice, since they're record fields :P < 1317168672 455146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: zzo < 1317168962 8855 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1317169644 943642 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1317169719 268053 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317170163 872362 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1317170449 605708 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might want to play (and make up) some tarot games (using Latin-suited cards). I do have a few ideas. < 1317170464 99214 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : nothing in the article about that... <-- there's a footnote confirming it < 1317170476 204236 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: >_< < 1317170484 606310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1317170488 86278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :his first name was actually Doctor < 1317170488 580283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1317170573 626955 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What might seem I might want some tarot deck, is a deck having features similar to the Spider Tarot, specifically: * Card backgrounds are blue (swords), green (rods), yellow (money), red (cups), and white (majors). * Latin-suited. * Index are 1 to 14 for minors, I to XXI for the trumps, and no index (possibly an entirely blank card) for the fool/excuse. < 1317170596 216560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1317170760 961490 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Such as, the kings (14) still have the picture of the king, but it is labeled "14", not "King".) < 1317170801 104556 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1317171274 392678 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope one day I can get a tarot deck and a Fanucci deck < 1317171511 815010 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, this one is so ..touchin beutiful..where the hell i have heard this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZrrQDphhrY < 1317171515 750129 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :infant dreams? < 1317171532 805490 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever head of transistor? < 1317171542 989350 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(music group) < 1317172144 411112 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there really should be a some kind of machine to deal with the iging patterns.. i mean F.U.C.K.U.P yes.. there are 64 of it, and its binary ..hell, need to evolve this diffusing idea < 1317172348 239440 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1317172395 325200 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :go on... < 1317173437 199285 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317173445 239219 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is starting to get PHP poisoning < 1317173624 87808 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317174063 995969 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1317174423 315108 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317174423 372830 :quintopia!~quintopia@74.117.158.92 QUIT :Changing host < 1317174423 372976 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1317174820 55335 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317174919 279642 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-244-93.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1317174945 218992 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is PHP poisoning? < 1317175213 486017 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317175248 411208 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: any amount of exposure to PHP < 1317175266 706294 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a very low lethal dosage. < 1317175357 177560 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317175357 718730 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1317175404 648425 :keyzs!55f2370c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.242.55.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317175409 570509 :keyzs!55f2370c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.242.55.12 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thevenusproject.com/ < 1317175413 547697 :keyzs!55f2370c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.242.55.12 PART :#esoteric < 1317175432 104987 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1317175466 455645 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a trap! < 1317175470 989561 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a venus trap, that is. < 1317175487 966354 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :deadly the venus project trap < 1317175887 322550 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The three fastest students (myself included) were told that we should make a thing where, if login fails, the user would be shown a countdown, then redirected to the login page. After one of the other students (not realizing that the assignment was only for us 3) complained that we weren't taught Javascript and that we needed Javascript to do it, I decided to do it without Javascript < 1317175891 673121 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just PHP and HTML < 1317175898 803532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317175904 359459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317175905 179930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317175916 826488 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317175937 841315 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are you representing what using my page would feel like? < 1317175942 232146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317175996 121322 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317176006 964653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317176078 29778 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tolga.me/seth/lab2/login.php < 1317176103 584004 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web, how spiteful. < 1317176103 911543 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :=p < 1317176124 227248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how the source is invalid < 1317176144 455098 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll kill me when I show you the PHP source < 1317176160 916284 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the html is literally wrong < 1317176171 374003 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the /> < 1317176183 322115 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should never have read stuff about XHTML? < 1317176185 512858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ypu need an xml header for that < 1317176218 758876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thatll just screw up errorhandling behaviour < 1317176226 862626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so dont use the slashes < 1317176227 437143 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait what? < 1317176236 416179 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, wrt screwing up errorhandling < 1317176261 138175 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/private/cnpw2axjigodmwkv3145g < 1317176268 977551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :xhtml violates postel's law completely, among other things < 1317176316 858017 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool unsallted password < 1317176324 936065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rainbow table time < 1317176337 792700 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317176405 2574 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this class and why are you in it < 1317176410 819633 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why aren't you at a better school < 1317176413 29354 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose, hypothetically, I was comparing the sha1'd (password + "lakuhdfoiuyergfuoeaywgrfo78yatgrfuiawygr83q2tr78tawguwaheroa78yw4378ry7834"). Would that be an appropriate salt? Although I'm under the impression that the salt should be different for each user, not sure the details why < 1317176460 473885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: because his father, like always < 1317176462 79192 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Web Database Development" < 1317176485 811104 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you want me to just tell you the password? < 1317176494 379186 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you want to get it yourself < 1317176499 765025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/e < 1317176505 904945 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Password is... < 1317176533 450997 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to tell you the Password < 1317176576 6246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it Password < 1317176580 793084 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1317176599 398337 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :web database development sounds lame < 1317176605 515500 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not a proper databases course < 1317176614 262972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wont bother trying to log in to your mail with it then\ < 1317176614 934477 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not some < 1317176615 587045 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :php < 1317176616 313231 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing < 1317176626 625822 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are proper database courses < 1317176639 994796 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you in the php thing instead of them < 1317176665 858274 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's because of the "web" part, I'll have you know: web sucks < 1317176675 889783 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's because of the "development" part, I'll have you know: development sucks < 1317176684 896047 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already took some of the proper database courses < 1317176698 29878 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: requirements, bad school < 1317176705 841389 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1317176707 438270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad school: see previous answer < 1317176711 829754 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is true that PHP is not so good, but it can be used < 1317176720 284749 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this was an elective < 1317176735 581669 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs for cover < 1317176760 969885 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317176841 981376 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1317176860 545434 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Client Quit < 1317176906 109265 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317177025 885637 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :At FreeGeek they told me they needed a program, it is a web page that refreshes, he agreed it is not ideal, I suggested using a telnet session or something else, apparently for keeping track of items in the store. But I would built it in to the POS system; in fact I started writing such thing. < 1317177052 577656 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I will also do what is described, using SQL reporting program (a program I wrote by myself in Enhanced CWEB) < 1317177107 99321 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How it works, is, a line with # at the front is a special command, and other lines are copied directly to output except for a field name with ` surround meaning use value of that field. < 1317177159 583298 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commands are #! is comment (allowing you to have a shebang line), #Q to execute a query, #Z to mark the end of a query block, #I to include file, #F to define a function, and #X to enter hexadecimal codes. < 1317177211 891440 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was originally designed for TeX output, but it works for HTML too. < 1317177335 32988 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1317177433 837871 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't force non-programmers to learn to program < 1317177451 709994 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1317177474 300550 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Please explain better? < 1317177478 803892 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: fsvo force < 1317177509 369429 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: If a user needs to write code in order to use something, then the interface is perhaps not the best. < 1317177518 474803 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/user/end-user/ < 1317177534 973409 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, wait, libraries .. are the people who use libraries considered end-users? < 1317177545 751078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: please... < 1317177563 630498 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what? < 1317177581 885460 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-146-193.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317177592 653782 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: I am writing the code myself; the end-user does not need to touch it if they do not want to. < 1317177604 653838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: demonstrating your ignorance of what an interface or end-user even IS after pleading with someone to not write a program based on an assumption you're making about it is just embarrassing yourself. < 1317177627 227341 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, oops < 1317177630 313936 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1317177730 217183 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I also do not completely agree. Best programs are those which you can write the programming; including TeX, METAFONT, UNIX shell, TeXnicard, etc. < 1317177741 814825 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And SQL. < 1317177744 917362 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317177806 528714 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317177812 856884 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, it depends on the program. < 1317177818 896985 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1317177837 714118 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it can. < 1317177845 428526 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :social networking app where you write it yourself < 1317177865 318460 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: That is OpenID. < 1317177903 726615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Every program must be programmable to be truly useful. < 1317177951 66174 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say "to be more useful to a segment of the population" then I might agree < 1317177959 736312 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1317177960 320369 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And that is one good reason of Free-software/Open-source. < 1317177985 423125 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An extendable program can offer benefits to non-programmers by virtue of the extensions that programmers write < 1317178007 545816 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think this implies that non-programmable programs are useless. < 1317178015 375122 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that programmable ones may be more useful < 1317178025 5249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The user/programmer distinction is arbitrary and harmful. < 1317178027 376332 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda makes sense < 1317178034 985799 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kinda makes sense < 1317178036 655908 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: I suppose so. It also depend what program. < 1317178039 16855 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may be: wrong < 1317178041 447722 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or: right < 1317178043 950237 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you look at it in a certain way < 1317178048 460760 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on what you meant < 1317178049 378526 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by < 1317178052 211475 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kinda makes sense" < 1317178054 255294 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But generally I think the one is good where you can write the program < 1317178061 759352 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and: < 1317178066 68018 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if you look at in a certain way" < 1317178073 648866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: what does < 1317178113 817797 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what way < 1317178115 281499 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the < 1317178120 45 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ceratin < 1317178120 890756 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :way < 1317178135 561528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cretin way < 1317178136 560850 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i don't agree with you at all.. user/programmer distinction is quite vital < 1317178206 293114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Consider Commodore 64s; everyone wrote /some/ code, whether it was to load a program from a tape, or following along tutorials in books because BASIC was the interface. The barrier to programming is incredibly, artificially high in today's operating systems. < 1317178224 729689 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: your typos may be used against you.. if you're a programmer, they already are against you < 1317178244 854748 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Is that meant to be a coherent argument? < 1317178263 872382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Experienced users nowadays already do things that come close to programming, they just don't realise it; and certainly they're being held back by having to make an arbitrary elevation between "power user" and "programmer" -- it means they can't do this and that which they're perfectly capable of, fit in their workflow, and would aid them immensely -- because that's /programming/, you need to get special programmer tools and training for that. < 1317178270 852520 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but was "everyone" a smaller segment of the population? These days, more people from wider backgrounds are required to use computers. < 1317178275 238685 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: i have a coherent argument too, but why waste effort here among the incoherents? < 1317178282 44004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And programmers suffer, too; "writing a program" is a separate thing. < 1317178291 254704 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: what < 1317178292 79612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can't apply their skills nearly so readily and easily outside that domain. < 1317178311 946465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Can you point me to something I've said about this that was incoherent? I'd be glad to elaborate. < 1317178325 895647 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the system shouldn't make the distinction so readily, but there still needs to be a level at which a computer is usable without having to teach someone anything more than very, very simple stuff < 1317178339 355664 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said ceratin........therefore i'm an idiot and time spent on me or you is time wasted......... < 1317178347 23781 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said ceratin too.....the curse..... < 1317178368 930382 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if your starting point is that the user/programmer distinction is harmful, there is nothing to elaborate, logically < 1317178380 354278 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1317178386 15785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I'm asking for you to clarify your opposing position. < 1317178391 773852 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: um, it's a conclusion that can be argued for or against. < 1317178392 249445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: You again are falling into this trap where you imagine this (mythical) Average Programmer/User/Whatever and religiously make all these decisions based on them, because you make them more ignorant, less capable of learning, less motivated and less knowledgeable than any person truly is. < 1317178421 375173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: It doesn't aid such people (who don't really exist, anyway); it's downright insulting and harmful to them, really, because it holds them back by imagining them in this image. < 1317178431 632045 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your idea is to do erase distinctions, it's not elaborating.. it's explaining stuff away < 1317178440 51411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: But what you are also assuming is that programming necessarily has to be hard at all. < 1317178462 485120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: There is no reason that using a UI cannot be a special case of programming, and an easy one at that, because a UI is backed by a program: it is just another abstraction. < 1317178473 314382 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are people who are less capable of learning, less motivated and less knowledgable. Or at least, I have anecdotal evidence of such, which isn't much, but still < 1317178473 643895 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: what < 1317178483 593411 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: elaborate < 1317178483 735788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What needs to be done is making the programming environment much more omnipresent, and integrating the transition from full UI to programming, blurring the boundaries, by making it just a special case. < 1317178490 610742 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: on why you won't elaborate < 1317178505 229318 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: alternatively, elaborate on the thing on which you won't elaborate < 1317178513 390146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Sure, but you take the absolute worst example imaginable -- that doesn't even form a coherent person, you just mentally answer every hypothetical question with the worst answer that could be given. < 1317178522 627097 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: an easy special case of programming might make sense < 1317178524 914610 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Good god, learning Windows would be damn near impossible for such a person -- it's a nightmare. < 1317178529 396277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And indeed, it's a nightmare for people in practice, too. < 1317178541 818346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not because they're idiots. Never ever assume people are idiots, because designing based on that will get you nowhere. < 1317178547 564243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: That isn't what I meant. < 1317178549 258621 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, my elaboration.. do programmers work for a purpose or not? < 1317178556 358971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not want a fisher price interface on top of a language. < 1317178558 31980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Work when? < 1317178569 682388 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then those people who cannot understand it should not use a computer. < 1317178582 85437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: The point is that just as we build higher layers of abstraction as programmers, a full UI is just another layer of abstraction. < 1317178583 890641 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, so you are so profoundly undistinguished.. no use then :) < 1317178587 522838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that it's implemented badly. < 1317178599 439067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: It does not gel with the lower layers at all, there is no interaction from the user's POV whatsoever. < 1317178619 381181 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: are you being serious < 1317178624 548964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Whatever; you're avoiding answering any questions with any kind of directness by brushing them off with excuses and saying incoherent vague things to sound wiser. < 1317178637 486501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you won't elaborate at all it clearly won't be productive to try and discuss this with you. < 1317178645 438920 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik doesn't seem to be a very good debater... Might I suggest presenting an actual counterargument? < 1317178649 429327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as I've written quite a load of paragraphs above elaborating upon and explicating /my/ position. < 1317178657 98350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: I doubt he has one. < 1317178667 834066 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can vaguely imagine what you want, and agree it would be preferable. But it should be such that it's usable even with minimal learning. < 1317178674 482646 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317178681 277509 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317178692 838505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Nothing is usable with minimal learning. < 1317178695 825092 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in any logical discussion your "work when?" has no meaning.. in a logical discussion, when one says "programmers work" it means they are programming.. this is kindergarten level of communication.. if you need to be taught this, it's kind of sad < 1317178703 435922 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when I have equipment/time/etc, I can build the computer, it will have both Forth and BASIC built-in you can write a program, yourself, or from book, or whatever. However, you can use the computer without that if you have other programs; if you have the physical media for the program, insert it and push START button on game controller, it will load by itself. < 1317178712 446509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: If you think Windows, if you think Ubuntu, if you think OS X, if you think the OLPC, if you think any interface is usable with minimal learning, you are wrong and this is not true in practice at all < 1317178716 852418 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: ahahaha wow did you really just say that < 1317178744 740616 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, this way, it shall makes more sense. You can write programming directly but it work even if you know nothing about the system other than push START. < 1317178747 492594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Those systems that are especially easy to learn -- that a lot of people can pick up within days to do very simple tasks -- are just simply done by staying as close to real-world analogies as possible, which we have put a whole backbreaking childhood into learning and internalising. < 1317178747 783159 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: must we follow your rules of conversation to get you to coax an elaboration out of you, or are you merely avoiding it? < 1317178750 420703 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik, go between a UI, a highly configurable UI, a batch processing system system with no control flow, one with conditionals/basic control flow, and so on. < 1317178753 724782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Which is not easy at all. And those UIs don't scale. < 1317178759 435458 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :When and why does it start becoming programming. < 1317178765 456737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: No, you said "do programmers work for a purpose". < 1317178771 685748 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone who struggles with basic concepts in Windows but barely survives by memorizing an exact sequence of steps to take should be able to survive this system in the same way. < 1317178771 768649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: My question was asking: < 1317178776 358069 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do have a specific person in mind. < 1317178779 219834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1317178781 765377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1317178791 960266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Are you asking: Do programmers "work for a purpose" when they are actually writing lines of code? < 1317178795 770159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When they are presenting code to others? < 1317178798 795273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As people generally? < 1317178806 259338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I would ask: What does working for a purpose means? < 1317178825 228821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be assuming the absolute least meaningful interpretation of what I'm saying. That's not a conducive environment. < 1317178825 843499 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think it's that "if normal people aren't programmers, what good are programmers?" but that's a really dumb argument < 1317178829 43444 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is derrik trying to talk about programmers making money? < 1317178833 456849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: They can survive any system with that. < 1317178853 447920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: If someone is just parroting, then they rely only on nothing ever changing, and the limits of their memory in terms of number of actions. < 1317178890 179918 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is pointless to think about them. And anyway if someone is operating in that way it just means the system has failed them in terms of educating them to use a computer effectively (which of course is the norm nowadays). < 1317178893 994741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: s/aren't/are/ surely? < 1317178905 137840 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if there is a purpose (money, code, completed interface, whatever) then the user/programmer distinction is necessarily there.. < 1317178910 783789 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh right < 1317178912 496347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /think/ derrik is trying to say that programmers have a purpose (to produce a product application), whereas users don't. < 1317178931 32862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's clearly not true: In an open source environment, programmers work by scratching their own itch: they work to accomplish a problem/task they have. < 1317178941 367249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's what users do, too: they do what is necessary to accomplish a task they have. < 1317178948 622346 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: that's an entriely irrelevant distinction < 1317178949 366799 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python console/bash console/etc < 1317178952 548081 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned eyeofhorus? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#In_arithmetic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching#The_hexagrams < 1317178956 456849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: It is really irrelevant to drag employment which is inherently based on the existing dichotomy into this. < 1317178964 545724 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: this is between users who can write code and users who can't; yours is about those who do it professionally < 1317178967 155196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It forms a circular argument: Programming is a profession, so programmers are different to users. < 1317178978 40604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But programming-as-a-profession assumes the distinction; you can't use it as an argument. < 1317178983 423376 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I write program, generally for whatever I am making. < 1317178995 419800 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think user/programmer dichotomy can be eliminated without eliminating programming-as-a-profession < 1317179000 269652 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: of course anyone can be both user and programmer, but this does not mean the distinction does not exist.. when you read a book and learn stuff from there, you are your own teacher, while you are a student too.. the distinction is quite necessary < 1317179026 80523 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, no one's going to want to write all the stuff to do XYZ themselves, they have other chores they have to do < 1317179027 724855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Then tell me where you draw the line. Looking at a person sat at a computer, how can you tell whether they are using or programming? < 1317179030 93805 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: That'd leave it more akin to the distinction between a professional mathematician and a recreational one, though. < 1317179069 247784 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a bit uncertain as to the distinction between professional mathematician and recreational < 1317179076 858279 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a professional mathematician < 1317179078 311820 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i don't need to know it about others, as long as i don't need to contact them.. but i clearly need to know it about myself, when i am coding.. i need to know why i am doing it, what will i do with the result, etc < 1317179091 85069 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Academia. Versus people doing it for shits and giggles. < 1317179096 573737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I'm not asking you to do it in practice. < 1317179102 34026 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: a user has a purpose: To accomplish task XYZ. < 1317179102 328343 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit of a fuzzy distinction. < 1317179114 254580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I'm asking, as a method of dialogue, to describe to me how you would distinguish any given hypothetical user at a computer, whether they are using or programming. < 1317179127 750540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That will then define what you say is the barrier between using or programming in a way that is easiest for me to understand. < 1317179142 693858 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: i never said user has no purpose.. user has users' purposes, programmer has programmers' purposes < 1317179169 73861 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you distinguish between a user purpose and a programmer purpose? < 1317179180 667455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: So can you do that? < 1317179194 148181 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: how about this: to play along with your words: and make you happy: everyone can be and is a programmer to some degree. that's what we were discussing before you misinterpreted it. < 1317179196 777369 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hypothetically, it is hypothetical.. could be both, and could be one of those.. depends on the purpose < 1317179217 914106 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that even an answer to anything elliott asked < 1317179228 339936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Yes, it's a nice tautology. I'm asking you to tell me what questions you would attempt to answer about what the user is doing to determine whether they are using or programming. < 1317179235 309814 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, hypothetically i don't care.. but if there is a purpose, it can be figured out < 1317179240 642811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your job is to go around and look at people who use computers, and to tell me whether they are using or programming. < 1317179244 61743 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have SQL reporting program right now because it is on the FreeGeek computer. But I will post it when I can do so, in case it is program you want to use (or to modify). < 1317179244 705059 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317179251 10400 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What questions would you attempt to get the answers to, about what they are doing, so you could determine this? < 1317179263 923445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you refuse to participate in this because it's hypothetical, then you're just obstructing the argument; of course it is, it's a tool I use to understand your positions better. < 1317179264 752213 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik, what's experiments on the Python console, or one shot commands in bash? < 1317179296 162128 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Are you doing something that will result in an entity that can be reused in situations other than this specific o..." wait, one-shot scripts < 1317179304 83528 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to become better programmers we need to get some insight on our nature..and breed some purpose < 1317179318 889576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Asking derrik, not you :) < 1317179318 907583 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if my job is to keep an eye on if people behind computers are working, i would watch what they are typing, if it is what they are supposed to be typing.. simple enough? < 1317179352 628756 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you write a command in the UNIX shell, or multiple commands, combined in whatever way possibly by pipes. I prefer the way program are operated by pipes. < 1317179361 682615 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: hi < 1317179365 38018 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1317179372 865264 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey monqy < 1317179388 75909 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bash kind of makes the "distinction" blurry, but Bash sucks as a language < 1317179464 571010 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows ui is like a language of clicking on things..........natural language is like a language of natural........ < 1317179532 202639 :Jafet1!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Client Quit < 1317179554 269204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Sure. < 1317179556 570438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: What would you watch for? < 1317179559 762899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What patterns in the typing? < 1317179577 332376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, you can't just go by if they were typing or not, because then you'd have to answer "Are they using or programming?" with only a yes/no to "Are they typing?"> < 1317179584 312143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking what questions you need to determine that. < 1317179592 569268 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can ignore edge-cases, I'm just asking how you would generally determine this. < 1317179602 89007 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who aren't programming don't necessarily not have the capacity...... < 1317179608 100230 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, programmers write documentation. < 1317179609 277903 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully < 1317179623 207798 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some people who are programming don't have the capacity... < 1317179624 503825 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Wishful thinking if ever I saw it. < 1317179625 449137 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, programmers writing applications at least. < 1317179680 331233 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION brings to mind one horrible LSL script he saw once < 1317179706 326792 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... lines of repeated code, one number changed by a certain amount each time. With one exception, where they messed up. < 1317179716 467744 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this code was posted for others to use. < 1317179722 928022 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they use it < 1317179748 847107 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the key here is what they are *supposed to be typing* < 1317179755 692970 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea < 1317179760 93303 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Supposed to? < 1317179765 10172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, someone is telling them to type certain things? < 1317179769 776376 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik, what is a visual programming language? < 1317179777 66164 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1317179805 182556 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe a meaningful distinction can be made, but this isn't anything close to it < 1317179875 9391 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they are typing because somebody already told them to type certain things.. and the supervisor will watch if the typing matches what the programmer is supposed to be typing.. now, can you think of more ways how to not parse simple expressions? < 1317179890 465140 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a distinction reliant on the current dichotomy count? < 1317179900 161799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Umm. But I'm a programmer, and I don't have any supervisors, and nobody tells me what to type. < 1317179915 978934 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you tell yourself what to type dummy < 1317179917 339342 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: do you really think all programmers program exclusively at jobs? < 1317179919 53021 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8) < 1317179933 989682 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recreational programming does not exist. < 1317179940 41843 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: then you made up a useless hypothetical situation.. good job < 1317179944 732897 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1317179950 245854 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: What?? But that's true. < 1317179952 917706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not hypothetical. < 1317179963 698498 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This network is for non-existent projects < 1317179965 153817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _am_ a programmer, I _do_ have no supervisor, because nobody employs me to program; I program of my own free will. < 1317179966 732248 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the hypothetical and how was it useless < 1317179978 962996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm an open source programmer who programs in his free time because I love doing it. < 1317179981 320194 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd never believe mono would get things done so easy..just successfully migrated big parts of etl-app without editing a single line of code (win->redhatlinux) < 1317179985 301774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that hypothetical? How am I not a programmer? < 1317179990 507936 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its even faster^^ < 1317180000 853785 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric : derrik: I'm asking, as a method of dialogue, to describe to me how you would distinguish any given hypothetical user at a computer, whether they are using or programming. < 1317180005 436673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you really say that the huge, reliable open-source codebases out there programmed by people in their own free time were not built by programmers because they weren't being employed to do it? < 1317180022 139099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Right. So you said: find out what they're being told to type by their supervisor. < 1317180031 170878 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that obviously fails, because there are many programmers doing it without a supervisor. < 1317180042 854819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that doesn't work to distinguish any hypothetical user because it misses out huge, huge swathes of them. < 1317180056 616437 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hypothetical situation was made up by you alone.. in a dialogue, you are useless < 1317180059 609510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm still left completely unenlightened as to how you define the distinction between "user" and "programmer", apart from "employment". < 1317180088 971997 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: it wasn't useless; it was a technique of argument to demonstrate that you are Wrong < 1317180093 318003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody else here seems to think I'm useless; I've written hundreds of quite clear (in my opinion) paragraphs of exposition and expansion on my positions, trying to explain what I think and why I think it, and how this can be applied in practice. < 1317180106 366975 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: what if: you: are useless < 1317180120 237146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've been very vague, everyone's asked you what you meant (and indeed I have many troubles determining too, which is why I was trying to ask in a dialogue format so you can explain to me more naturally, as this is very helpful in practice). < 1317180133 877753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With all due respect, I really don't think I can be said to be the useless one in this dialogue. < 1317180134 956194 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: simple enough, there are programmers who have supervisors.. how about that? < 1317180146 489288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it? Of course there are. < 1317180152 461097 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317180153 109577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that how you define the distinction between users and programmers? < 1317180159 661216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether they have a supervisor telling them to program or not? < 1317180172 893985 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also definite non-programmers who have supervisors. < 1317180181 574771 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, people who do not use computers in any way. < 1317180183 866658 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if there is a meaningful distinction, which you contend there definitely is, then there is a definition of how a user differs from a programmer; what additional facets a programmer must possess to be a programmer on top of just a user. < 1317180197 25281 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the underlying question? sry :) < 1317180197 102232 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to ask you to articulate or at least broadly define roughly what characteristics these are. < 1317180209 410147 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :must have missed it < 1317180214 755480 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: conclusion - at least you can tell the difference between a programmer and a supervisor.. it's not my problem that you can't make any further distinctions < 1317180221 377023 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1317180228 117862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: My contention is that the user/programmer distinction is fundamentally meaningless, misleading and harmful to both supposed groups; derrik disagrees. < 1317180238 688285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I'm not sure what you are trying to say. < 1317180239 234208 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1317180255 711314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Can we forget about this failed avenue and you maybe answer my question directly? :) < 1317180267 318933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it seems pointless to continue going down it since it obviously hasn't worked to make us understand each other's opinions. < 1317180269 212005 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks elliott, i would agree but still don't see what derrik is out to say < 1317180275 337935 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What characteristics must a programmer have to be a programmer and not just a user? < 1317180282 800683 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is a meaningful distinction, then these must exist. < 1317180315 193550 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you are the programmer, yet you consider yourself just a user? < 1317180363 54439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find "just a user" quite offensive. It's true that certain very unfortunate and harmful realities of current systems force there to be a barrier, but like I said, my contention is that it is completely artificial, with the only real distinction being those who have managed to cross that barrier, which is in large part due to chance. < 1317180374 876992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, that seems quite a personal remark. Do you not want to answer my question of what the distinguishing characteristics are? < 1317180381 191576 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is that important.. i consider myself a wizard < 1317180392 869095 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :the distinction is plain and clear enough for me.. you were able to see distinctions between a programmer and a supervisor.. you knowingly muddle the distinction up between a user and a programmer < 1317180448 994570 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i need to explain the distinction, because i have already done it ad nauseam.. now it's your turn to explain the distinction away, coherently < 1317180458 477925 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't even done it once. < 1317180464 745439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I'm sorry, but I really don't see what you consider the distinction. < 1317180466 552326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it supervisors? < 1317180469 607305 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have merely asserted there is one. < 1317180479 830731 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I might just be being thick, I agree it's entirely possible. But please, I ask you to try and help me. < 1317180489 341143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the characteristics that distinguish a mere user from a programmer? < 1317180514 682473 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the context? < 1317180516 2535 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> < 1317180520 812020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... you say that since programmers and supervisors are "obviously" separate with no justification, one can similarly draw such an obvious boundary between programmer and user that it cannot be explained. < 1317180523 482666 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: programmer creates, the user consumes.. is this a meaningless distinction? < 1317180529 927990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I would just be arguing that apples and oranges are a meaningless distinction. < 1317180538 592188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this seems unreasonable, because I can use it to justify any unreasonable distinction: < 1317180547 436356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say we divide people into two groups, blah groups and bleh groups, completely randomly. < 1317180571 526715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since programmers and superiors can be distinguished, I could say that someone was being unreasonable to assert that blah/bleh was an arbitrary distinction, by using that same analogy. < 1317180578 824208 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem to say much about programmers and users, only programmers and supervisors. < 1317180588 51992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: The user consumes? But users create tons of things with computers every day. < 1317180594 378965 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the distinction here is not between apples and oranges, but between an apple tree and the one who is picking apples < 1317180609 605878 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And programmers consume in abundance -- libraries, for instance. < 1317180613 336025 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mistake is too profound < 1317180618 959560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A user is programming when they use Word's search and replace. < 1317180621 947291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have automated, abstracted a task. < 1317180624 662552 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :duality trap < 1317180629 186034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have turned looking and manually replacing each word in a document... < 1317180630 220641 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :detected < 1317180642 704533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With an abstracted window that replaces each occurrence with only one click. < 1317180644 897820 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1317180649 591070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is like a programmer turning a hundred lines of repetition into a single function call. < 1317180652 9900 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has come up with a way to make the distinction, but it disqualifies HQ9+ programmers from being programmers. < 1317180652 220861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is programming. < 1317180665 442387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is what the user is doing there different in form from what the programmer is doing? < 1317180669 979822 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i know that.. that's an apple tree.. just plant the seed < 1317180674 876983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, what the user does is not seen/reused by other people. < 1317180681 241007 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But programmers very often create personal, private scripts for their own use. < 1317180688 847727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I don't understand your analogy. < 1317180703 251317 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i agree with you - you are thick < 1317180722 446484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: At least I'm civil. < 1317180724 201902 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming is providing a computer system instructions, where the set of instructions is enough to simulate a turing machine. < 1317180731 629617 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that disqualifies C programmers. < 1317180749 361962 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just replace turing machine with ... what's the finite version < 1317180764 268937 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: It also replaces programming with programming a compiler or interpreter. < 1317180768 745217 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may have disqualified writing SQL queries from "programming" < 1317180788 814087 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you are only 'programming' if you are creating a TC program. < 1317180790 352742 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1317180810 27405 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming is reflecting < 1317180824 570526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: So will you be civil or will you just continue insisting I'm the one who's wrong for, like most everyone talking right now, not understanding your convoluted and seemingly-meaningless metaphors? If you call me thick, that's just admitting you've lost the argument. < 1317180844 943716 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: by "set of instructions", I mean the available set of instructions, not just the instructions used in the provided programs. < 1317180858 749372 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a supervisor derrik? < 1317180894 606549 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So using any TC language should qualify < 1317180901 143009 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: please, it was your own word, long before i said it.. i'm no less civil than you < 1317180929 893851 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a difference between self-deprecation in humbleness to be polite and to attempt to foster a productive discussion and insults. < 1317180963 791126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wish you would be clear rather than being obscure and accusing me of "just not getting it" when I don't immediately see your position without you having specified it at all. < 1317180972 748443 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, yes, i understood well.. you also asked me to help you.. don't you appreciate it? < 1317180984 44141 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This does make the person ssh'ing into a server to admin Apache a "programmer" due to the console's weak programmer/user distinction < 1317180997 486187 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the person writing SQL queries all day not a programmer. < 1317180998 876213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I wish I could say I appreciated it, but I don't really think you've helped yet. < 1317181008 696191 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this is fixable. < 1317181021 311563 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thank me for the effort i wasted until now, then i can agree you are civil, and we can go on < 1317181039 449842 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so human < 1317181041 886583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Sure. I'll thank anyone for spending the time of day trying to debate their positions rationally. < 1317181048 98646 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd++ < 1317181048 387373 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :he pass the test < 1317181068 217366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: ? < 1317181088 924999 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought hagb4rd was commenting on human tendency to get into conflict < 1317181100 242948 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically stupid bad conflict < 1317181105 914215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Does what I'm saying sound like conflict? If so, I'm sorry. < 1317181115 914280 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, are there any other similar distinctions that are useless in your mind? teacher/student for example? < 1317181120 124476 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it just reached its peak < 1317181125 844226 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is fine now < 1317181135 15162 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: salesman/buyer? < 1317181153 619201 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I'm sure there are other distinctions I would consider useless... but I find your examples pretty well selected against what I'm saying, because you're choosing some classic dichotomies. < 1317181179 75715 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :to teach well, the examples must be well selected.. < 1317181179 238156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Do you agree that programming is, at least, a type of using? One who programs a computer is using it, to program it? < 1317181185 60844 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas one who is buying is certainly not selling. < 1317181206 863570 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Ada Lovelace programmed a computer without using it.. < 1317181214 79975 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: of course any workman *uses* tools.. < 1317181232 342262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Well, sure. That's not exactly a common scenario, though. < 1317181288 46443 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: I mean, if I were asked to produce what someone /might/ say were a list of characteristics that programmers have that users don't... < 1317181291 741736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might say: < 1317181298 991064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- Is using an editor with syntax highlighting < 1317181310 899161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- Is using a compiler or interpreter, for instance in a terminal < 1317181330 810890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :- Is causing interfaces to appear/be created on the screen that were not present prior of their own invention. < 1317181339 375464 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Do you agree that these are some reasonable characteristics? < 1317181355 715986 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excel is an interpreter... < 1317181357 756889 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1317181360 776338 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<.< < 1317181380 443508 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Very much so. And it's even used as such. < 1317181382 890912 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: at least add to it - knowledge of programming languages < 1317181400 508391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Ah, but I am trying to distinguish someone who is in the /act/ of programming. < 1317181416 579192 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go, the original question elliott asked. Except rework it to "currently using a programming language" < 1317181421 215750 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Then nearly every UNIX shell user is a programmer. < 1317181424 629035 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what use is an editor with syntax highlighting if you don't know what syntax is? < 1317181435 904537 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also nearly every DOS user. < 1317181438 33199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: After all, a person who knows seventeen programming languages off by heart and uses them for twenty years but then retires, swears off programming, and just browses the web and uses Microsoft Office -- they're not a programmer, they're an ex-programmer. < 1317181456 590405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess it is necessary but not sufficient. < 1317181460 362606 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, really, just about any user of any computer before the commonality of GUI. < 1317181464 874155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: But do you agree that those are reasonable distinguishing characteristics? < 1317181477 823907 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: my criterion does the same, right? < 1317181493 31574 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Yeah. < 1317181533 715974 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: knowledge of programming languages is kind of vital for a programmer.. if you don't know what syntax is, syntax highlighting is useless.. if you don't know what compilers do, no use of those.. etc < 1317181551 685368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: That's what I said: necessary but not sufficient. < 1317181585 603322 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: man, a child first learns the letters, and then writes and reads and types.. not the other way < 1317181596 887012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not disagreeing. < 1317181600 963691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you think I am disagreeing? < 1317181610 484603 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I figured out how to fix it: Programming is the act of using an instruction set where the intersection of what the person is able to use and is considering using, and what exists within the instruction set, is turing complete. < 1317181625 544789 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, someone using ls and cat etc. is not programming. < 1317181645 288100 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But someone using C is not. < 1317181649 708547 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh < 1317181649 726948 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you did not include knowledge of programming languages among the characteristics, elliott.. < 1317181649 745125 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: So a programmer who idly considers writing a script to fix something but ends up manually doing it anyway is programming? < 1317181660 987735 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: But then I later amended it too, and called it necessary but not sufficient. < 1317181664 309724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry for making errors. < 1317181694 838810 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: obviously, replace turing complete with whatever-it-is-C-is. < 1317181710 653024 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: now, all these characteristics can be used to distinguish a programmer from a user.. when you don't have these characteristics, but you are behind a computer using it, you are not a programmer, just a user < 1317181725 962895 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: FSA. < 1317181741 890229 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, not sure how to fix that, if it's even fixable < 1317181749 736826 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Which leaves you with rather a huge problem, because there's a metric fuckton of FSAs. < 1317181761 853373 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a most powerful FSA? < 1317181764 258874 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: OK. What about a person who writes some macros in Word that pops up a box where the user fills in a few fields to, say, perform an automated series of finds and replaces? (But they never leave Word.) < 1317181768 383732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're programming, right? < 1317181768 508147 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, wait, what < 1317181769 271775 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence user/programmer distinction exists.. q.e.d. < 1317181778 429362 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry to bring up bad memories, but was the point for which the programmer/user dichtomy was brought up not that of capacity to program, say in usage of an application, rather than expertise in the subject? < 1317181779 927237 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-146-193.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1317181785 109850 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have we just derailed that much < 1317181789 748269 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that we don't even care < 1317181790 695026 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1317181802 152715 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about some cooking spaghetti while singing a song? < 1317181804 691354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: It's a bit more subtle than that, but that seems closer. < 1317181805 460660 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: me complaining about something that zzo38 wasn't doing < 1317181840 128871 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its my spaghetti cooking algo < 1317181849 203157 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: No, there is not a most powerful FSA. < 1317181856 14765 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I wasn't doing? < 1317181868 906210 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the relevance of user/programmer was in determination of if users can be expected to "program" < 1317181875 730383 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Least powerful FSA able to accomodate C? < 1317181886 96549 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you write a lot of stuff try to argument about many things; OK if that is how you want to do < 1317181908 776900 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I thought you were doing something I disliked but you weren't < 1317181911 914969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: that's just "an FSM with elliott, if you ask me, the difference between programming and not-programming is the ability to solve novel problems. < 1317182863 790420 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric : Most UIs don't have that. < 1317182868 145706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: And fuck you for making me waste all these keypresses when all you want to do is be stubborn and act superior that you understand all these "obvious" concepts and distinctions. < 1317182917 981827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Now I'm going to discuss this with people who deserve to be in this channel because they contribute productively and constructively by at least humouring and trying to come to an agreement when a point of debate is raised, rather than just wasting the other person's time with vagueness and unwillingness to argue (yet still replying that their position is clearly true) for long periods of time. < 1317182930 140430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Hopefully over time there will be more of them, and less of you. < 1317182940 661853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now. < 1317182953 485932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: I think that excludes a lot of programming in practice. < 1317182964 341714 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :People certainly do create the same web database interface CRUD apps day after day, after all. < 1317182966 914091 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might console you that me at least enjoyed your unbreakable confindence in consense < 1317182984 549669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: And though it doesn't exactly require your brain to do it, it's still programming, I think everyone would agree: same toolchain, same language, etc. < 1317182990 183807 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect in next D&D session I and my brother both gain an experence level; XP totals usually average 5000 per session. Now, to see if I can qualify for one prestige class or if I have to select the other one instead. I hope I am able. < 1317183000 788411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: Wow, consense is a word I'd never heard before. < 1317183006 937459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: But thank you, assuming you're addressing me. :) < 1317183016 365724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's unfortunate that it couldn't have come to something productive. < 1317183017 727587 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1317183078 636655 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the distinction that I try to make is less "are solving a novel program" and more "the tools available can" < 1317183089 142742 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is less talking about the person doing things and more about the thing they're using. < 1317183099 480251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Well, Word exposes a full programming language with complete API access to its users, via VBA. < 1317183110 412735 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you can say that opening a VBA editor is tantamount to opening another tool entirely. < 1317183118 540461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I suppose is reasonable, but then tools are quite vaguely defined. < 1317183133 809718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Visual Studio might even have enough wizards to produce a very simple, nearly-useless GUI program without ever opening the code editor. < 1317183251 82063 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I suppose you could say that without the VBA editor and support for the macros it generates, Word wouldn't be able to solve a completely new problem (well, I suppose you could do what /// does...) < 1317183272 710216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: You should see the kind of mail merge setup I have, it's a TURING MACHINE. :p < 1317183276 763127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It isn't but that would be cool.) < 1317183306 115499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: But I think that actually supports my argument: Word only supports novel problems via a klunky side mechanism that is not nearly as easy to use as Word itself (well, Word itself is hardly a walk in the park, but I digress). < 1317183329 700797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole computing system should be equipped to solve novel problems as a whole, and each component should support this. < 1317183363 757059 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which... isn't exactly a trivial task. < 1317183374 632028 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "Barrier a c >>= f = Barrier a $ c >=> f" a proper monad? < 1317183390 395774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: It's more like it's a difficult system to imagine starting from current systems as a base. < 1317183400 207817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say @ is actually a simpler system than a Linux desktop. < 1317183403 597269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By a very long way. < 1317183419 254260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to make comma categories in Haskell? < 1317183440 715549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-category/0.4.1/doc/html/src/Data-Category-Comma.html < 1317183454 722356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is what I found by googling < 1317183459 4350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-category/0.4.1/doc/html/Data-Category-Comma.html < 1317183756 26757 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The perfect distinction: < 1317183770 481332 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming is any activity which a consensus of #esoteric agrees is programming. < 1317183801 842759 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Vejn. < 1317183817 720291 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1317183832 828629 :arryl!~larry@184.6.155.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317183904 427049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Like we ever get consensus. < 1317183920 400980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't think anyone disagrees that @ is the best. If anyone thinks it isn't, they should be banned. < 1317183927 965326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, hi arryl, you look new, do you agree that @ is the best. < 1317183928 938137 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1317183930 641656 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1317183959 97524 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just wants to know what "vejn" means < 1317183959 689027 :arryl!~larry@184.6.155.246 QUIT :Client Quit < 1317183970 92196 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can < 1317183976 387597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip arylryl < 1317183979 72983 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even yell at elliott for scaring away the newcomer < 1317183990 66409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just do that with welcoming now < 1317184262 935156 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: okay, thanks for being yourself there for a while.. the way i see it: we have been through two "cases" set forth by you.. the first was hypothetical and the next moment hypothetical was not good enough for you.. the second case was by the end of which you developed characteristics to distinguish user and programmer, which was exactly my point to prove.. then you tried to bring forth... < 1317184266 980431 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :...a third case and drop your characteristics.. well, my effort to help you is good enough for one day.. i am a professional teacher by the way, and my the way i speak is consciously chosen to accommodate a self-admitted thick adult like you.. well, good enough for a day < 1317184325 489463 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're talking to yourself. < 1317184345 1122 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, we did :) < 1317184353 521528 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee PART #esoteric :"left" < 1317184356 804661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry to hear that you're a professional teacher; but at least kids must be used to that these days. < 1317184359 507129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, good, he left. < 1317184365 332735 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm glad too is this bad < 1317184379 149390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I think he was pretty objectively a negative contribution to this place. < 1317184381 34935 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sorry for the kids too < 1317184389 92712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe even Sgeo|web will agree, wait no he wants everyone in here. < 1317184474 161325 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of tuned him out when he started making non-constructive arguments < 1317184483 216919 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I turned blind to the whole insult thing < 1317184496 516467 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PART :#esoteric < 1317184518 170127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He just called me thick, but I was frankly looking for any excuse to change the tedious loop at that point. < 1317184525 293632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did he ever make any constructive arguments? < 1317184634 644660 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.. don't think so. I tend to notice non-constructive arguments more than constructive ones. I hate non-constructive arguments, especially when I thought I previously agreed with their stance. < 1317184660 11464 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah yeah, call me out for being side-minded. I am human < 1317184670 49150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's piped up a couple of times before, so I didn't really expect anything better. < 1317184691 572428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was mostly an exercise in how ridiculously better one side of an argument can be. :p < 1317185115 73491 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye teacher seems really to be the alternative solution if you failed completely..poor kids ack < 1317185140 419530 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :supervisor! < 1317185234 263798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least most of the conversations in here are productive :) < 1317185242 806105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distinguishing conversations from flamewars :P < 1317185341 591379 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if I added "ajkhdgoiyegro87ty68w374tvb583w74ytw78534tnh86,7w3s4ty5a789w2 tv587634t5vw78qa34t b5iwvakztJHGRy4 to7853qtb4678wbtgva4iuyt58y37a4bgt578q9a" to the submitted password and compared that sha1 to the stored sha1, would that be decent salting? < 1317185366 995046 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess someone could generate a rainbow table for that particular salt < 1317185386 697967 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least no pre-existing rainbow tables should be sufficient < 1317185409 770245 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't think rainbow tables would be much use cracking one password? Would brute-force be better? < 1317185452 246998 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd probably do better to actually create and store a random salt for each password. < 1317185471 660084 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's only one password and it's hardcoded.. < 1317185490 973525 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The eff? < 1317185501 932398 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yes, that would be decent salting. < 1317185512 614447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Don't add keyboard randomness. < 1317185514 499679 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a simple lab project, to get us to learn how to do forms < 1317185515 492167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a terrible source of randomness. < 1317185537 478832 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: o.O. Are there any actual examples or demonstrations of that being used? < 1317185542 97049 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that is a good point < 1317185551 853322 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Keyboard randomness is literally one of the worst sources of entropy, it's almost completely predictable. < 1317185552 568825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd a-zA-Z0-9 | head -c 99 < 1317185552 731775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sCu0Z5H0UZwCEd7vagVU0DIdeZwoJXx7J8TLRdBOw5V9QjwomcGTETtt5TE0kBz6uGMcGl62UcqxtYgbmuzjjSiiamE0eOZQ9ta < 1317185558 996773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use that. Except... run it yourself :P < 1317185566 867721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And use a nice power of two, not 99 X-D < 1317185572 627630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it would be fine for a single password. < 1317185581 298979 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why a nice power of 2 for a salt? < 1317185582 137678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creating a rainbow table for one hash would basically defeat the point. < 1317185589 665423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the point is that you'd have one salt per password. < 1317185590 724375 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Powers of 2 are nice. < 1317185594 140548 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Because powers of two should always be used. < 1317185603 532590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest 96 in this case, though it's excessive. < 1317185613 367989 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :96 is a power of 2 now? < 1317185616 863615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point. < 1317185622 741468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should really use bcrypt or scrypt rather than plain SHA for passwording, anyway. < 1317185625 699589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in PHP... yeaaah. < 1317185656 824479 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if the professor even mentioned md5 to the class, but certainly was surprised by my use of sha1 < 1317185666 587551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a good way? < 1317185680 265212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's not really all that massively better. < 1317185684 156243 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1317185686 87286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should definitely use at least bcrypt. < 1317185687 73661 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :store every password plaintext always: the sgeos school way < 1317185692 256853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It used to be much better.) < 1317185698 360894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But now it's only a few orders of magnitude better :P) < 1317185701 284744 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used to be? < 1317185705 739423 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sha1, not bcrypt < 1317185707 964067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1317185709 936404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a nice http://www.mindrot.org/projects/py-bcrypt/ which makes bcrypt easy. < 1317185717 819811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :scrypt is The Hot New Thing though. < 1317185727 226144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We estimate that on modern (2009) hardware, if 5 seconds are spent computing a derived key, the cost of a hardware brute-force attack against scrypt is roughly 4000 times greater than the cost of a similar attack against bcrypt (to find the same password), and 20000 times greater than a similar attack against PBKDF2." < 1317185800 625460 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1317186345 776382 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-67-110.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317186346 649790 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-67-110.telstraclear.net QUIT :Changing host < 1317186346 667751 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1317186544 75187 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's make side-bet of the D&D game that I am in. < 1317186639 531959 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But what I have, it has three constructors; Unit, Barrier, and Fail (although you can omit Fail if you want to). < 1317186736 331119 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It seem to me does satisfy. The one I am less sure, which is the one I ask, and why I ask (although I think is correct), is: Barrier a c >>= f = Barrier a $ c >=> f; < 1317186800 958664 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I just ask to make sure, in case I made a mistake. < 1317186844 397929 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PART :#esoteric < 1317186884 979275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1317187629 951586 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1317187640 440440 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's made side-bet of Dungeons&Dragons game. < 1317187697 960085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1317187821 302641 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder why the author of geom is so unsure as to whether it can be used to compute nonconstructible numbers. the only ways of generating new points appear to be compass and straightedge methods < 1317187952 96396 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db42e73.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de < 1317188172 290037 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is geom turing complete? It -should- be < 1317188202 704993 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f0fe.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317188300 166976 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bet in difference of XP after next session of D&D game. To bet on the one after next worth more points, and one after that even more. etc. Same thing with other bets on different thing, such as money, equipment, location, death.... < 1317188328 50732 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're betting on what the players will do and what the DM will give in his scenario? < 1317188337 717340 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the DM is aware of the bets, he can easily make them suceed/fail < 1317188369 8250 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :These bets must be made on side, the DM is not aware of them, and the bets do not affect the game at all. In addition, they are not made by the players or DM. < 1317188404 327587 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course the players and DM can bet too; and you can tell the DM if you want to; neither of these will help as far as I know.) < 1317188421 840098 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: perhaps he hasn't thought that far, or realized that, or realized its applicability there < 1317188436 170276 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's pretty much psychological, since it's up to the DM completely how the game proceeds < 1317188439 21519 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless he's a rules lawyer < 1317188440 66337 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The game is complicated; it is difficult to tell what happen next. < 1317188475 944461 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The DM isn't rules lawyer in fact he isn't even very good with the rules. He ask me question about rules. But he is still good at DM stuff otherwise. < 1317188492 339290 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO it'd be like making side bets on the outcome of a book almost < 1317188498 642910 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder if anyone's ever done that, hehe) < 1317188509 816646 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course some things has to do with randomness, some don't, but it is hard to tell everything a lot!! < 1317188529 179969 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone bet on outcome of a book? I suppose is similar, since the recording file is a book, too. < 1317188549 192207 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :patashu: if geom is turing-complete, it should be possible to write a program to compute the cube root of two, right? < 1317188570 548270 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can copmute the cube root of two to arbitrary digits < 1317188572 87279 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not exactly < 1317188579 760954 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1317188586 694392 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1317188595 644465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :righ < 1317188596 494013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1317188606 201219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can be arbitrarily encoded < 1317188616 302085 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be funny if you start straightedging and compassing the number 3 then 3.1 then 3.14 then suddenly the hand of god crumples up your paper. 'YOU CAN'T CONSTRUCT PI, THOSE ARE THE RULES, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE UP TO' < 1317188627 320090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1317188638 311165 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's what pi being unconstructable means anyway :D < 1317188641 783599 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :he does that when i try to divide by zero >.> < 1317188649 126575 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things are not close to what the DM expects. Not close to what the players or the DM expects! Everything goes different. < 1317188688 12125 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a 3D version of straightedge and compass? < 1317188721 716414 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use regular ones in 3 space < 1317188749 998592 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get 3 dimensional points whose components are constructible numbers in the traditional sense < 1317188763 695707 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What other bets can you think of for D&D game? < 1317188773 510263 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much mountain dew they drink < 1317188812 720729 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :patashu: do you know how to find a sequence of constructible numbers arbitrarily close to cube root of 2 (using geometric techniques)? < 1317188816 394563 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, stuff directly with the game. And none of us drink or eat anything during the game; that would mess up the books. < 1317188861 794202 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :number of attacks, number of attacks blocked < 1317188863 398486 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's a good question < 1317188877 497299 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course one bet is experience levels, but that seem a bit easier, at least in the games I play since it is more predictable about average XP totals and that stuff. < 1317188897 465524 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, that is one thing. Of course the answer can be zero, but it can also go very high. < 1317188943 20033 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it must be possible to get arbitrarily close by constructing rational numbers and cutting between them, but I don't know the process < 1317188970 41869 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can read the recording at first if it help; and then, the bet is worth more, by the more number of sessions after the current one that has been played, that you are betting on. < 1317189080 735629 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be many things that are specific to the campaign, game, and session, being played. < 1317189139 611510 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am one of the players, but I don't care what bets you make. I am reasonably sure the DM doesn't care either. But I am interested in these bets, even if they are not revealed until after the session is played.) < 1317189571 543721 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things I can think of based on the current game/session: * Number of form changes. * Number of ambushes. * CR of brains consumed (if you wish simpler, partition it at <9 and >=9). * Number of lost caravans. * Number of military spies. * Whether or not the next town will have a library. * Whether or not my spellbook will ever be retrieved. < 1317189723 175175 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :More general things: * Next experience level. * Number of uses of spells. * In-game time in one session. * Money gained/lost. * Spells cast by NPCs. * XP totals. * Number of critical hits. < 1317189949 505382 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Number of deliberate misses. * Languages used in-game. * Anti-magic fields. * Prices of objects in-game. < 1317189985 974584 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else? < 1317190015 800435 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :real time spent in combat? < 1317190049 495027 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but I wanted only things that would be recorded. < 1317190068 498530 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this stuff is recorded? < 1317190070 314134 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :by who? < 1317190077 572267 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of hits and blocks is OK, though. < 1317190097 665901 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: I record it. I use TeX to record this stuff, using a macro file I wrote for this purpose. < 1317190103 838398 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want to see it? < 1317190112 16119 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's ok < 1317190125 116704 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it has to be something you record already, or anything theoretically recordable is okay? < 1317190130 496738 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :And objective < 1317190161 545768 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that would be recorded (even if it hasn't been yet) and objective. < 1317190190 915116 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, in-game events, including XP totals and character sheets, and session headings. < 1317190204 883117 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of 1s rolls < 1317190206 931144 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rolled < 1317190271 706780 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't record that but it does count. If it was kept track of, I would tell you if your bet succeeded or failed. But it belongs anyways, even though it is unlikely to be recorded (probably because I forget) < 1317190302 412560 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :CR of brains consumed? Is this something that occurs often in your sessions? < 1317190336 846125 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot answer that question unless you read the recordings. Same with all the other things I listed under "Some things I can think of based on the current game/session". < 1317190364 294188 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you want the reason for the partitioning, that is a separate thing.) < 1317190420 860729 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note things change; some of the things I listed are relevant to the current context; some are more long-term. < 1317190699 57501 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will explain the reason for the partitioning right now since that is simple. It has to do with prestige classes. < 1317190718 364222 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for "More general things", another idea is: * Number of times each kind of dice rolled. < 1317190758 266136 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Number of PC deaths. * Number of NPC deaths. * Number of resurrections. < 1317190916 789413 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Possibly separate them into *Number of PC resurrections * Number of NPC resurrections.) < 1317191000 203137 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever invent any card games? < 1317191105 196996 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a card game when I was like 10 < 1317191108 439366 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was trivial < 1317191110 724110 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, if you make any of these side-bets of D&D game, I would like to know. No actual payment (at least, not to/from me), but I would like to know the general things you bet on, don't bother to tell me specifically until after the session is played. But write it down. < 1317191153 834997 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Can you describe it? I have invented various card-game, solitaire and not, for various number of players, and for various kind of decks of cards (some for standard deck, some are for tarot cards) < 1317191202 438731 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :You had cards numbered 1 through 9. A round consisted of presenting then discarding a card. If your card was higher you got a point. < 1317191205 353908 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was something really simple like that < 1317191326 819530 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many cards of each rank? < 1317191343 935168 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each player had their own hand < 1317191348 704269 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So one/player < 1317191479 528160 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once made a card game. it was like 100 cards or something, each with a picture and a name. a third were attack, a third were defense, and a third were neutral. i forget the rules, but it was probably rock-paper-scissorsish < 1317191499 164768 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forget the rules completely? < 1317191571 708542 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1317191588 400665 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :never wrote em down i think < 1317191599 237947 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was like 15 years ago < 1317191616 806973 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only remembered i did it because i found the cards in an old box cleaning up < 1317191634 239399 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to have a Latin-suited tarot deck so that I can try to play some games I invented with it; I think I found somewhere, a deck designed to be working good for both game and for divination. < 1317191669 629144 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice the number of cards is divisible by 3, but not by 4. This is contrary to ordinary playing cards. < 1317191818 405535 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One game I invented for tarot cards is called Matadore. It is played by three players. You deal some cards at first, after all those are exhausted you deal the rest of the cards and continue. Your score is multiplied by the number of matadores. The excuse can be played at any time even if you have the suit led, but never wins a trick. < 1317191858 772068 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot lead the excuse unless it is your only card, in which case you earn 1 point immediately and it automatically wins the trick. For the purpose of counting matadores, the excuse card counts as the zero of trumps. < 1317191889 711508 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the game you can make bids and doubles, and then you must pass cards to the next player before playing the tricks. < 1317191910 769202 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some cards are positive points and some negative, but mostly you try to win tricks, especially the final trick. < 1317192164 803338 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also invented a game using standard playing cards, using only the 1 to 7 of each suit, called Chinese Euchre, even though it is neither Chinese nor Euchre. Even though 1 is low and clubs is low, a 1 still beats a 7 and a club still beats a spade. Aces are worth 1 point each, it is 2 points if opponent is unable to play a proper card to follow your lead, and 4 points for the final trick. < 1317192435 98894 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to play the card game Napoleon? It has a few unusual rules. One is that partners are not necessarily known by all players at the beginning of the game. Scoring cards are the TJQKA of each suit, worth 1 point each. If you win all 20 points without bidding 20, you lose (this is called the Siberian Rule). If all players follow suit, a 2 beats an ace, otherwise ace is high. < 1317192555 310893 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The method of deciding partners is as follows: The declarer names any card (whether he holds it or not). The player who holds that card is the declarer's partner, and the other three players go against him. (If the declarer names a card he holds in his own hand, he plays alone against four opponents.) Other players do not know who the partner is until the named card is played. < 1317192665 572004 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except on the first trick, the ace of spades beats everything (regardless of trump suit). The second highest card is the jack of trumps and the third highest is the jack of the other suit of same color of trumps; both of these rules don't work on the first trick. < 1317193554 71095 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317193567 75714 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1317193624 823605 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317193665 775225 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t showString < 1317193666 970848 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :String -> String -> String < 1317193935 429899 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinion about counting honors in Whist? My opinion is that honors should not be counted in Whist, although honours should still be counted in Bridge. < 1317193956 283253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> lines "a\n" < 1317193957 343390 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["a"] < 1317193960 95780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> unlines (lines "a\n") < 1317193960 973102 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "a\n" < 1317194039 540924 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are playing Bridge, and you receive all thirteen cards of one suit, and you are first to bid, what should you do? < 1317194071 658023 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that a NT bid will beat you and in that case, unless you go first, you lose. < 1317194089 82198 :cheater!~cheater@ip-2-200-118-137.web.vodafone.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably think of doing something else because bridge is boring < 1317194430 338104 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1317194435 522369 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you win if you can trick the player to the right to bid 7NT and then you double. That way you win since you play first. < 1317194513 87479 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the game of Hearts, any player with all the clubs achieves control and wins. < 1317194760 580167 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1317194779 75988 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1317194908 970277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t showSpace < 1317194909 935614 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `showSpace' < 1317194989 267409 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317195440 288856 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317195564 509014 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I make a Haskell program so that it can be loaded by other Haskell program even in different directories and other computers? Do I need to do some command of cabal? < 1317195584 555832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to write a cabal file < 1317195597 168831 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :try "cabal init --no-comments" in a project root directory < 1317195607 86664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will ask a few questions and generate a skeleton cabal file for your library or program < 1317195620 381704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/cabal/users-guide/ has full documentation of the format after that < 1317195771 338735 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I filled in the questions. It tells me it is unknown license type, and that I forgot to fill in the synopsis. < 1317195782 808261 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PublicDomain is one of the license types, I think < 1317195795 482867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you should really fill in the synopsis, it's just a one-line description of the package. < 1317195814 852784 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what I did, I pushed 9 and the file does say PublicDomain but it still told me it is unknown license type < 1317195820 558835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1317195825 665103 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just put PublicDomain in the license field in the cabal file, then. < 1317195839 191132 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. I will fill the synopsis, so I just uncomment "Synopsis:" and fill in some text? < 1317195858 645848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, just a one-sentence summary of the package < 1317195860 408938 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The license field in the cabal file already says PublicDomain, I checked. < 1317195863 963632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, okay then < 1317195865 308743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fine then < 1317195945 916683 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Generating LICENSE... Warning: unknown license type, you must put a copy in LICENSE yourself." < 1317195975 323110 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also says to add the "Description" field too. < 1317196005 552592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The description field is nice but not vital. < 1317196013 959170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's just a multiple-paragraph description of your package and its use.) < 1317196019 340077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just ignore that LICENSE warning. < 1317196030 93485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you could put a public domain dedication in LICENSE. < 1317196081 31288 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Sinatra decent? < 1317196084 410380 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1317196145 213420 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to make the package for BarrierMonad. (I might do others too, later.) Where it says Category, is Control the correct choice? I am unsure how the category does. < 1317196187 892320 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what do I do for the example.lhs file? It is not needed to use the module, it only contains examples, and is needed if you want to print out the BarrierMonad.lhs file since it has \input that file < 1317196298 139892 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control sounds the right choice to me. < 1317196303 522483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is it an executable program? < 1317196324 188170 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it is library, and I selected that one. < 1317196329 148927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, example.lhs. < 1317196336 861016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, you could add it as an executable in a separate section, called "barriermonad-example" or something (it will be installed into the user's PATH most likely, so you should pick a unique name; you don't have to rename the .lhs). < 1317196348 453601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could just leave it out and have the user compile it themselves if they want to; that's fine too. < 1317196356 388309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably doesn't need to be installed into the user's PATH, after all. < 1317196361 234328 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file example.lhs is neither executable nor library; it is meant only for use in GHCi. < 1317196367 373363 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for reading. < 1317196376 983954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, just leave it out then. < 1317196486 351227 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, if you load BarrierMonad.lhs into TeX, it will expect to read example.lhs too; and you might also want to load example.lhs into GHCi; but it is otherwise of no use and is not needed to use the BarrierMonad library. < 1317196559 118368 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does cabal supposed to deal with these kind of thing? < 1317196592 759226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't. < 1317196594 439423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would it? < 1317196601 147686 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works fine as simply a file in the source tarball. < 1317196610 52036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal is about Haskell package management. < 1317196654 742906 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it enough that the filename is not capitalized? Will that make it work properly? The other filename is capitalized because it is a library module expected loaded from other programs too, but the one not capitalized is only for itself and unneeded file. < 1317196715 646994 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name is irrelevant. < 1317196721 151997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal won't even know it exists. < 1317196858 265931 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want to include the file but is only for example. Is there the way of specifying that? < 1317196867 570916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just include it in your tarball. < 1317196868 431093 :myndzi!~myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317196876 427634 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal /only/ cares about executables or what you register with the GHC package system. < 1317196882 230366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal doesn't need to care about your examples. < 1317196885 206459 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1317196887 665514 :myndzi!~myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1317196895 122150 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317196937 727879 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1317196944 850982 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a printout, the example file is required, and so is the birdstyle.tex file even though neither is needed for using the module in other Haskell program. < 1317197056 476128 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do I do about that? Do I just add a README file? < 1317197128 295925 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .cabal file mentions "License-file: LICENSE" but there is not such file. Is that OK? If not, is it OK to comment out that line? < 1317197136 68832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just remove that line. < 1317197232 275435 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1317197383 953544 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1317197437 506757 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition "yield = flip Barrier Unit;" is named as such due to similarity of the yield command in JavaScript. I did not realize it at first and it was named something else, but very soon after that, I renamed it because I didn't like the old name very much. < 1317197463 103080 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also because at first, before I renamed it, I didn't notice that similarity. And then I did notice.) < 1317197542 944120 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think the type of "continue" is more useful as it is or with the arguments flipped? < 1317197621 724591 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The way it currently is, is probably a simpler definition, and maybe it runs more efficiently too) < 1317197788 226 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I made up barrier monad file, is there some kind of way that can have cobarrier comonads as well? < 1317197930 838546 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to ask copumpkin < 1317198174 855019 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you ever use join with barrier monads? This is an example of what it does: < 1317198197 233495 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :collect . convert (+ 1) id . join $ do { yield 7; yield 100; return $ do { yield 99; yield 111; }; } = [8,101,100,112] < 1317198213 77451 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :collect . join . convert (+ 1) id $ do { yield 7; yield 100; return $ do { yield 99; yield 111; }; } = [8,101,99,111] < 1317198282 801034 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :collect . convert (+ 1) id $ do { yield 7; yield 100; return $ do { yield 99; yield 111; }; } = [8,101] < 1317198390 899333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1317198623 835365 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is what I expected it to do; but I have not thought of how join would be used in barrier monads in proper programs.) < 1317199185 337367 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317200411 490607 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1317200697 189132 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317200997 467119 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317201907 638020 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317201910 889285 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317202784 168400 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317203633 898214 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317204398 431258 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1317206197 212210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh neat, the Kindle three uses a webkit browser < 1317206432 50444 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1317206466 145637 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A26A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317206688 7987 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1317207537 923106 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-29-229.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1317207537 940996 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-29-229.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1317207537 941119 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1317209938 322148 :brisingr!~brisingr@79.117.71.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317210072 644339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi brisingr < 1317211065 97777 :brisingr!~brisingr@79.117.71.197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317211084 110412 :brisingr!~brisingr@79.117.71.197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, was forcefully made to eat < 1317211148 688280 :brisingr!~brisingr@79.117.71.197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/forcefully made/unsafeCoerced/ < 1317212942 540495 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317212952 58715 :brisingr!~brisingr@79.117.71.197 PART :#esoteric < 1317212970 419230 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee QUIT :Client Quit < 1317213017 751395 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317213059 70246 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee QUIT :Client Quit < 1317213121 520864 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317213149 882482 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee QUIT :Client Quit < 1317213205 802712 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317213390 965932 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A26A.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317213461 745227 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1317214579 679635 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1317215796 491165 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone awake and also knowledgable for C++? < 1317215894 15469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1317215897 20120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im kind of < 1317215898 507334 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :go on < 1317215992 384116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: < 1317216005 328498 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering if a variable declaration can construct an object multiple times within a function body. For example, when the declaration is within a loop; < 1317216024 78645 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if I must use dynamic allocation at that point. < 1317216039 682923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you mean call the constructor with the same storage? < 1317216080 989837 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like place a stack variable declaration inside the body of a loop. what happens? is the variable constructed once at the start of the function, or each time the declaration is encountered in the loop? < 1317216088 371339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tias < 1317216101 93066 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean. < 1317216103 841073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :class foo { public: foo(){puts("lol");}}; < 1317216119 939970 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(){for(int i=0;i<99;i++){foo x; (void)x;}} < 1317216124 81495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tias=try it and see < 1317216128 607026 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1317216135 66958 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes that's what I was trying to avoid but okay. < 1317216256 378320 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I got 99 lols < 1317216257 418405 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so good < 1317216262 502626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go then < 1317216272 140674 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I assuming that's all auto memory that will be deleted at the end of the function < 1317216278 389310 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :since < 1317216280 109427 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make sense < 1317216283 654701 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :given C++'s semantics. < 1317216453 438308 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what do you think computer science is? some kind of science? < 1317216459 31543 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO EXPERIMENTATION. < 1317216460 885136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics, actually < 1317216467 477776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But C++ violates that. < 1317216478 942846 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well applied computer science has some principles of science I guess < 1317216483 81696 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes computer science is mathematics. < 1317216909 25508 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is your keyboard finally fixed? < 1317216919 217677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :m...maybe... < 1317217851 317903 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I have no idea how to do this. < 1317217858 284057 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :without constructing an expression tree. < 1317217867 449002 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has to convert an infix expression to prefix < 1317217872 642932 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do postfix... but not prefix. < 1317217884 164379 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has to use a stack, so I can't use expression trees. < 1317217910 618299 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317217956 935472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: itt: shunting yard < 1317218038 544504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh has to use a stack < 1317218039 8790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1317218041 146613 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1317218041 877573 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1317218047 764660 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's for postfix < 1317218059 288392 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can just as easily produce an ast. < 1317218064 415324 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking I'll need a stack for both operands and operators... < 1317218069 297346 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: don't think I can use that. < 1317218228 92672 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably should've gone to class the day it was explained. :P < 1317218369 419384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well shunting yard does use a stack < 1317218455 508827 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does not convert to prefix directly. < 1317218488 816900 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this strange feeling that I'm talking in circles. < 1317218497 852916 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe figure 8 < 1317218499 582152 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s < 1317218701 95572 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can do it with two stacks. < 1317219534 871972 :derrik_!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317219553 49657 :derrik_!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee QUIT :Client Quit < 1317219570 871078 :derrik_!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317219584 60876 :derrik_!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee PART :#esoteric < 1317219613 144448 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1317219653 25558 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1317219830 553443 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1317220555 667020 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317220874 60713 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can parentheses be considered to have a precedence? < 1317220903 448285 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically the lowest. < 1317220948 184849 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317220951 921237 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't think it makes sense for circumfix operators to have precedence as they're explicit about it. < 1317221016 996307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: phwpqhowqiowh < 1317221034 735257 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Astute as ever. < 1317221035 193323 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1317221075 363521 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to WORK THINGS OUT WITH PEN AND PAPER < 1317221157 133867 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh this is so bad. < 1317221157 213164 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1317221164 125927 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want trees... < 1317221252 598626 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck it I'm using trees. < 1317221263 793361 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY TEACHER WILL GET OVER IT. < 1317221283 732008 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat STL has no tree.... < 1317221294 654938 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were talking about Minecraft and then drugs before I realised. < 1317221332 352306 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1317221349 978551 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I could not actually be talking about programming < 1317221355 867306 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a channel about programming languages. < 1317221433 738170 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay so how does the shunting ard algorithm work with an AST. < 1317221441 599126 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you don't just output to a stream/queue/string/whatever < 1317221445 160243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia :P < 1317221455 677798 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at it right now but I'm not seeing an explanation. < 1317221459 728690 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the algorithm itself < 1317221471 421637 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm already familiar with. < 1317221516 764861 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes I could not actually be talking about programming < 1317221516 858100 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1317221516 933414 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : on a channel about programming languages. < 1317221523 7281 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long have you been here again? < 1317221547 519051 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we don't stray horridly off topic most of the time < 1317221552 434015 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time we are talking about programming somehow. < 1317221585 556 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmm < 1317221632 624724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You clearly missed the about three months when the channel was literally just Minecraft talk. < 1317221633 612572 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : can parentheses be considered to have a precedence? <-- if doing a bison/yacc grammar I would probably not handle parens as an operator with a defined associative and precedence... < 1317221640 405953 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you meant < 1317221649 151977 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1317221662 31793 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how does the tree construction work with shunting yard help < 1317221671 155987 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your MOM shunts a yard. < 1317221673 131875 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: okay so how does the shunting ard algorithm work with an AST. <-- uh, the shunting yard algorithm does not use an AST < 1317221685 544052 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, but there's no reason you have to produce a literal postfix string. < 1317221685 562074 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses two stacks or some such iirc < 1317221690 474750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about output. < 1317221696 241948 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when did we export it all into -minecraft? < 1317221698 964527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can easily make it output a syntax tree, even if it's just by going through the result backwards. < 1317221711 986161 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1317221720 16017 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: When I wrote Herobrine. So late two thousand and ten or so? < 1317221721 3795 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what use is the shunting yard algorithm if you have an AST anyway? You can just do a post-order tree traversal < 1317221722 687657 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of gross, but okay. < 1317221729 446317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I mean, input string → output AST < 1317221731 396813 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal is missing the point. < 1317221733 916484 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so two months at most? < 1317221744 180950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Weeell, I'm not sure on the exact dates. < 1317221746 482467 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh you want to use the shunting yard algorithm to generate an AST? Hm okay < 1317221747 961978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was a LOT of Minecraft talk. < 1317221752 70879 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, CakeProphet does. < 1317221752 326003 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :("TWO MONTHS YOU TWAT!") < 1317221752 728539 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might. < 1317221757 63261 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by you you mean CakeProphet < 1317221757 851213 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right < 1317221767 890455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not sure how sensible that is. But sure, go on < 1317221769 266791 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes because I can find no other sane method to convert infix to prefix. < 1317221783 176584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems the easiest way. < 1317221792 624168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you could just shunting-yard then reverse :-D < 1317221795 916216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except without reversing the operands :P < 1317221831 12752 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...how does that work. < 1317221835 658754 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: build an AST the normal way from your grammar, then do a pre-order tree walk? That would take you to prefix form I think. It is so much easier to do this sort of stuff when you already have an AST... < 1317221846 204168 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I am not writing this code for myself < 1317221851 963804 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for a class. I have requirements and stuff. < 1317221863 303000 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: hm. < 1317221937 175306 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you evaluate a prefix expression? I mean, for postfix you can use a simple stack machine. Do you push operators for prefix and pop them off when you see operands? < 1317221960 365109 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so yes. < 1317221961 562356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure you could build an AST for your prefix expression, but then what was the point of it < 1317221967 953818 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*infix expression < 1317221970 895178 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am taking an infix expression < 1317221973 409411 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and converting it to prefix < 1317221977 684654 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not evaluating anything. < 1317221993 340478 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it was a related issue I was thinking about < 1317222003 696174 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO SIDE-TRACKING ALLOWED < 1317222017 157460 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN MY SHUNTING YARD WE SHUNT IN ONE YARD WITH ONE TRACK. < 1317222030 342357 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the rules. < 1317222057 828343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you need to evaluate something like + 2 4 into + on the stack, then a special 2+ on the stack, and only then you can actually calculate it < 1317222076 25494 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow it feels like prefix is stupid to evaluate with a stack machine to me < 1317222208 329605 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have a feeling I can construct a tree as part of the algorithm... < 1317222218 460827 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if I use a queue to collect operands. < 1317222301 27729 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er no I mean a stack. < 1317222441 443221 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:04:36: What is a professional mathematician < 1317222442 263650 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm yeah okay I think I know how. < 1317222446 682 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One who gets paid you idiot. < 1317222498 86228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Pro definition. < 1317222527 661222 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One who gets paid *for mathsing*. < 1317222529 529686 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You idiot. < 1317222582 566486 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so I can maintain a stack of tree nodes I think... < 1317222817 312087 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow it sure is a pain in the ass that string literals in C++ are not string objects... < 1317222856 710957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::string(s) < 1317222883 723179 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:16:09: derrik, what is a visual programming language? < 1317222894 339018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's #esoteric Jeopardy. < 1317222921 390751 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a question that can only be answered by the most hideous echelons of Microsoft, although I suspect their answer is 'one which we are hyping'. < 1317222939 320047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You realise visual programming languages are actual things. < 1317222955 749846 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure-data, reaktor, max/msp < 1317222959 146164 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excel maybe. < 1317222962 458208 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat < 1317222985 424906 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Phantom_Hoover < 1317223042 736245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :derrik: Your connection is broken. < 1317223220 39673 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if you see this, then maybe not < 1317223234 450835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik (~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223234 612136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* brisingr (~brisingr@79.117.71.197) has left #esoteric < 1317223234 629646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik has quit (Client Quit) < 1317223234 629808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik (~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223234 629916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik has quit (Client Quit) < 1317223234 940727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik (~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223236 912291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik has quit (Client Quit) < 1317223238 889281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik (~xix@gprs-inet-65-7.elisa.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223241 26764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1317223242 834454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik_ (~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223244 819149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik_ has quit (Client Quit) < 1317223246 794259 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik_ (~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223248 776986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik_ (~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee) has left #esoteric < 1317223250 908081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) < 1317223252 882494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* derrik (~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee) has joined #esoteric < 1317223254 852947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1317223263 58352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't make your client flood joins/quits; it clogs up the channel a lot and happens quite often. < 1317223274 763780 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: unstable, yes.. but not broken at the moment < 1317223283 148001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, broken in that it is disruptive. < 1317223316 490247 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for the mess.. i will try cleaner manners < 1317223330 794321 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1317223419 726577 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : 03:16:09: derrik, what is a visual programming language? <-- Piet maybe? < 1317223471 398428 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm guess not < 1317223520 892426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Pure_Data_with_many_patches_open_%28netpd_project%29.png <-- what a mess < 1317223549 991561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less messy than your typical C project. < 1317223590 559548 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the mess of windows I meant. With a typical C project I have like one terminal and one tabbed editor open. < 1317223598 281121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's you. < 1317223611 253397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such systems can get worse... http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gK7ubK8-F84/RiokBgnK_QI/AAAAAAAACjM/6bkc0VDODr4/s320/max2.jpg < 1317223621 854835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://jackaperkins.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/maxpatch.jpg < 1317223624 815988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a messy graph < 1317223626 956547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literal spaghetti code. < 1317223632 593119 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1317223672 7488 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay I actually have 5 windows open on my desktop atm: firefox, irc, emacs, xfce-terminal and a PDF. < 1317223684 520831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I'm coding) < 1317223704 99499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have twenty Chrome windows, two Pidgin windows, a terminal, xchat, and emacs. < 1317223723 735588 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusually I have only 5 tabs in firefox atm. Often I have like 200 < 1317223734 262661 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wait a second, doesn't pidgin do tabs? < 1317223750 722146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: One is the buddy list. < 1317223755 158957 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1317223759 601556 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1317223801 633966 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the only time I tend to have a sprawl of windows open is when using gimp. However I often become annoyed at the sprawl of windows in gimp... < 1317224193 629588 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f0fe.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this remind me i wanted to write a tool to save winpositions like bookmarks (recover with hotkey..muahrhr) < 1317224227 140887 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f0fe.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this what the world needs < 1317224249 862385 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was thinking about how you could reverse just the operators in a string to get postfix -> prefix < 1317224252 868028 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but uh.... how? < 1317224292 533549 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess reflect them around the midpoint?? < 1317224301 888685 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something? < 1317224303 960918 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. I have no idea. < 1317224307 460625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Start from end; whenever you see an operator, push it to the stack, then recurse times its arity. < 1317224316 997964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The final "stack" contains the prefix expression in the wrong order. :p < 1317224319 152280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really want a queue there. < 1317224328 733049 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1317224344 215464 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm okay but then how do I pop the queue... < 1317224358 493041 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite right? < 1317224361 950035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1317224384 704681 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just told me to push the operators onto a queue in reverse.... and that's it. < 1317224399 264725 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee QUIT :Quit: take carez < 1317224407 341004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take carez yourself. < 1317224409 458169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No, I didn't. < 1317224424 275146 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's all I understood from it. < 1317224462 456249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, infix < 1317224465 961358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait postfix < 1317224468 7901 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1317224472 44467 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah this is easy: < 1317224481 445340 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using shunting yard to convert to postfix < 1317224490 602485 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I'm going to take thatand convert to prefix. < 1317224520 522928 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :either with trees or with elliott's magic reversing algorithm < 1317224581 377215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1317224581 864178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1317224633 47554 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking it would work siilarly to an algorithm to evaluate the postfix < 1317224674 579276 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1317224695 541657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I have something but it assumes all operators are binary < 1317224696 198412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that ok < 1317224718 38505 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1317224718 915143 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are. < 1317224731 918485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tm = Op ... < 1317224731 936820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Lit ... < 1317224732 82683 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix :: Seq Tm -> (Seq Tm, Seq Tm) < 1317224732 100918 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix s = < 1317224732 101061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : case viewr s of < 1317224732 906126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : EmptyR -> (Seq.empty, Seq.empty) < 1317224734 880644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : s' :> op@Op{} -> < 1317224736 853695 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : let (a,s'') = postfixToPrefix s' < 1317224738 834371 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (b,s''') = postfixToPrefix s'' < 1317224740 964613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : in (Seq.singleton op >< a >< b, s''') < 1317224742 937181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : s' :> lit@Lit{} -> (Seq.singleton lit, s') < 1317224753 948571 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no. < 1317224765 210085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix (Seq.fromList [Lit 99, Lit 999, Op '+']) --> (Seq.fromList [Op '+', Lit 99, Lit 999], Seq.fromList []), I believe < 1317224766 889817 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to convert Haskell to C++ < 1317224770 239418 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster NICK :Vorpal < 1317224802 786918 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you could just do system("ghci ...") < 1317224830 381131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Oops, it is reversed. < 1317224836 902432 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm highly considering constructing an AST from the postfix and then using the nice little show Tree function I already made. < 1317224841 334970 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :import Data.Sequence (Seq, ViewR(..), (><)) < 1317224841 500000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :import qualified Data.Sequence as Seq < 1317224841 518756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tm = Op String | Lit Int deriving (Show) < 1317224841 518832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix :: Seq Tm -> (Seq Tm, Seq Tm) < 1317224841 864282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix s = < 1317224843 803725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : case Seq.viewr s of < 1317224845 773925 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : EmptyR -> (Seq.empty, Seq.empty) < 1317224847 910191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : s' :> op@Op{} -> < 1317224849 886728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : let (b,s'') = postfixToPrefix s' < 1317224851 859189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (a,s''') = postfixToPrefix s'' < 1317224853 836855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : in (Seq.singleton op >< a >< b, s''') < 1317224855 808669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : s' :> lit@Lit{} -> (Seq.singleton lit, s') < 1317224857 782584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1317224859 918599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a very simple algorithm. < 1317224861 892407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact < 1317224863 866089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can generalise it easily < 1317224868 955298 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except half of that notation is completely new to me. < 1317224869 965540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Watch as I make this trivial < 1317224920 53206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so... < 1317224946 294054 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::> is kind of like reverse cons? < 1317224965 816657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it is a weird smily < 1317224968 18559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :smiley* < 1317224970 30499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Let me simplify this < 1317224993 515299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t replicateM < 1317224993 886080 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (:>) < 1317224994 907241 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a] < 1317224995 79369 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: data constructor `:>' < 1317224996 693524 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you traversing the string backwards? < 1317224997 845929 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1317225078 343088 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes. But seriously, stop trying to understand it. < 1317225081 804628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me do this simplification, OK? < 1317225084 693546 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. < 1317225088 836257 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I kind of understand it. < 1317225090 218628 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though. < 1317225102 375232 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the translation to C++ will be tricky though. < 1317225149 886753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, but it will be /much simpler/. < 1317225272 651982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, almost done. < 1317225277 927022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t evalState < 1317225278 950212 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall s a. State s a -> s -> a < 1317225280 387341 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t runState < 1317225281 575536 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall s a. State s a -> s -> (a, s) < 1317225303 32385 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1317225304 872002 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not state. < 1317225310 937006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :stfu < 1317225315 407459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++ has state all over the place < 1317225324 598747 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :use ST if you want to make it look like C++ < 1317225363 653138 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1317225400 260208 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, that sounds like a nightmare: trying to make haskell look like C++ < 1317225403 153281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :just eww < 1317225444 560204 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you can't just explain it in pseudocode? < 1317225460 207562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: OK, fine, how about this: Do it however you want, I don't care. < 1317225498 52710 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I would appreciate the help, but if you don't want to help that's fine. < 1317225509 909383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do, you just don't seem interested. < 1317225530 167575 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not interested in translating Haskell to C++ no, but having the Haskell would certainly help and is something I'm interested in. < 1317225618 946088 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I could do it recursively as in the original algorithm though < 1317225627 177264 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the second one < 1317225660 94550 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as I don't use references the inputs will be copied and will thus function as though immutable. < 1317225698 651210 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it would probably be more efficient to explicitly use a stack and do it the mutable way. < 1317225727 643050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, it's a trivial stateful algorithm. < 1317225769 594451 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not good with statefulness. < 1317225910 896134 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317225919 807184 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if I understand correctly. < 1317225929 316349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too busy writing the simpler version, not interested < 1317225937 653019 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I basically need to set up a stack machine as though I am evaluating the postfix. < 1317225946 748227 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead I output prefix expressions. < 1317225959 530527 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, no. < 1317225962 456833 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't work. < 1317225980 635894 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need like two stacks maybe. < 1317226021 560270 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case I need to leave soon but I'll read the logs later if you finish anything. < 1317226054 318042 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... also < 1317226082 440877 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I use a stack instead of queue to output the shunting yard algorithm. < 1317226091 260412 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically that would just reverse it. < 1317226461 29253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix :: Seq Tm -> State (Seq Tm) (Seq Tm) < 1317226461 47190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfixToPrefix s = < 1317226461 147918 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : case Seq.viewr s of < 1317226461 166148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : EmptyR -> return Seq.empty < 1317226461 166319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : s' :> tm -> put s' >> foldl (><) (Seq.singleton tm) <$> replicateM (arity tm) m < 1317226461 959343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where m = state (swap . runState (postfixToPrefix Seq.empty)) < 1317226465 900241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, this definitely can be simplified... < 1317226565 502159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317227239 461339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1317227249 481651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1317228682 520987 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1317229548 249936 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you have any experience with incremental GC on a terabyte-large, odd NUMA heap? < 1317229550 390865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? shame < 1317229567 86580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that was a kind-of random question to ask < 1317229571 938467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, I don't < 1317229575 304563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: @ :-) < 1317229587 797924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have been better completely devoid of context. < 1317229606 155480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1317229609 418778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, I still don't < 1317229609 666260 :MichaelBurge_!~quassel@75-175-85-232.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317229615 885801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shame < 1317229664 562137 :Irish42!~anonymous@194.251.170.100 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317229680 134651 :Irish42!~anonymous@194.251.170.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello all < 1317229686 4750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1317229688 139286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1317229691 243858 :Irish42!~anonymous@194.251.170.100 PART :#esoteric < 1317229692 925327 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1317229694 420131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo... < 1317229705 111756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't helpful < 1317229800 204672 :MichaelBurge!~quassel@75-175-84-99.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1317230064 343183 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317230164 798867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1317230388 480624 :MichaelBurge_!~quassel@75-175-85-232.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317230454 62903 :MichaelBurge!~quassel@75-175-85-232.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317230613 775599 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1317231583 692613 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317232025 696067 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1317232429 602681 :MichaelBurge!~quassel@75-175-85-232.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317232442 22507 :MichaelBurge!~quassel@75-175-85-232.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317233007 242663 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317233089 716817 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317233137 742520 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1317233177 277526 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If learning to ride a tricycle is, I dunno, like programming in Scratch, and bicycle in C++, unicycling is freakin' Malbolge < 1317233181 94609 :cheater!~cheater@ip-2-200-118-137.web.vodafone.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Ngevd < 1317233184 221718 :cheater!~cheater@ip-2-200-118-137.web.vodafone.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1317233185 874160 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1317233191 543480 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been here before < 1317233195 940236 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am also known as Taneb < 1317233204 261265 :cheater!~cheater@ip-2-200-118-137.web.vodafone.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of < 1317233212 646269 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What date is it? < 1317233288 991441 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Ngevd < 1317233300 108952 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9/28/2011 using weird US notation < 1317233320 198730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wed 28 Sep, according to my status bar < 1317233324 487571 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In sensible British notation that makes 9/28/2011 < 1317233332 734210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the day-of-the-week reminder is useful, I get disoriented sometimes < 1317233338 396648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: *28/9/2011 < 1317233339 333511 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah, I've been here a couple of months < 1317233359 46752 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1317233364 445130 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had a long dau < 1317233366 475821 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*day < 1317235743 753879 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1317235753 368565 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317235766 855655 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Finnish notation that's "28.9.2011". < 1317235801 457430 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that what they use in Hel/Finland? < 1317235805 353626 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "Hel" is the native name. < 1317235810 967985 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apt. < 1317235911 233336 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317235922 172527 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apt-get. < 1317235981 145293 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I too thought of this. You are such a good bot. < 1317235989 824613 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317235992 638791 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix my bug would you? And don't say "beep". < 1317236004 183072 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :MEEP. < 1317236049 714547 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1317236211 918630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317236417 154420 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may make a language designed to compile into BytePusher < 1317236640 448827 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f0fe.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1317236841 946101 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1317237188 552509 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7544.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317237362 259813 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1317237389 860765 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1317237622 239780 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1317237623 925963 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evenings < 1317237628 868257 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should not be this warm < 1317237783 245008 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Nick suggestion: Tantor_Hoover, so you can share an acronym with Template Haskell. < 1317237855 91645 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Taneb's Hat < 1317238111 319354 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a nice hat < 1317238118 201269 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, three hats < 1317238148 57057 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^Taneb < 1317238153 498779 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, hmm < 1317238155 560949 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb^ < 1317238177 998349 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::? < 1317238192 503110 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ is hat < 1317238211 475395 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317238234 337719 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh < 1317238326 531107 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Wonderful summer weather, innit < 1317238330 302378 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Innit is so a classy word now. < 1317238354 589150 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually heard someone say "Innit" unironically during the summer < 1317238412 260126 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just missed the additional layer of irony. < 1317238432 64110 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :People keep typoing process 1? Why? < 1317238447 536284 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^joke < 1317238467 388243 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :THANK GOD YOU MARKED THE JOKE < 1317238476 164597 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I wouldn't have got it if you hadn't because it is the least funny. < 1317238500 995032 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was worried someone might actually think I thought people were gypping init < 1317238509 786568 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typoong < 1317238541 154658 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION surrenders < 1317238713 95819 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1317238910 79842 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Nick suggestion: Tantor_Hoover, so you can share an acronym with Template Haskell. < 1317238920 257239 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why Tantor? < 1317238924 463721 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 NICK :Trantor_Hoover < 1317239089 566487 :tromp!~tromp@rtc34-222.rentec.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1317239125 491243 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi tromp < 1317239135 548572 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trantor_Hoover: Well, he's got a trunk, that works for a hoover. < 1317239154 220811 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heyy, esolangs.org/w redirects to the wiki. < 1317239156 780494 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VALUABLE KEYPRESSES. < 1317239632 860774 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1317239650 895801 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :H over < 1317239657 468661 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1317239662 405525 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vlbl kyptss < 1317239709 66892 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :W atocrct great < 1317239780 814480 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FL autocrtc < 1317239837 830828 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :W splng? < 1317239885 531923 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :W /r.t; [ copula. < 1317240111 556472 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1317240205 762411 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why Tantor? < 1317240210 91629 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's irrelephant. < 1317240291 670259 :ais523!~ais523@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1317240292 68856 :ais523!~ais523@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT :Changing host < 1317240292 87135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317240315 660723 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i see you settled on something more megalomaniac < 1317241013 93098 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: i have this strange hunch that earlier today you failed to recognize a troll - in the original usenet sense of the word... < 1317241032 641196 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Quite intentional. derrik is a moron, but perhaps not a troll: he has been here for months. < 1317241057 370108 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :However he's not done anything but pipe up in the same vague nonsense every time, so I think I'll just be annoying until he goes away. < 1317241064 40486 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do my secret plans still work if I tell everyone about them first? :/ < 1317241082 425752 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not believe the original usenet sense required people to always troll. in fact i think respected community members sometimes did it. < 1317241104 510690 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's possible to emulate that level of mental tedium. < 1317241115 959269 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :my memory is somewhat vague, though. < 1317241123 538379 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you're right. < 1317241127 927283 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm 90 percent sure he's Actually That Stupid, though. < 1317241151 516063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the original phrase was "trolling for newbies" < 1317241164 508667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was done by established community members against new ones < 1317241167 758111 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1317241197 718687 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so not quite the original sense then, i guess < 1317241273 786334 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means elliott_ is probably the greatest troll in this channel :P < 1317241275 893400 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but no, I was quite aware that it would never become productive ever. < 1317241291 788182 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what I was doing, but it was something related to proving a point. < 1317241298 744307 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever it was it was amusing. < 1317241305 340208 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good. < 1317241331 116279 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspected so, after all you never asked me to ban him ;P < 1317241353 442887 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any need for banning when the entire channel is on someone's back :P < 1317241585 548937 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may design a REDICULOUSLY COMPLEX INSTRUCTION SET COMPUTER < 1317241592 497954 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :[sic] < 1317241634 386602 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was what Uniquode was... :P < 1317241702 185412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's Itanium < 1317241721 306273 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uniquode is more like Befunge < 1317241842 278696 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReCISC is much lower level than Befunge < 1317241852 734265 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or indeed Uniquode, which is what I meant to say < 1317242023 891462 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newly diculated. < 1317242213 826073 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-194-104.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the AS/400. < 1317242945 610370 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : That is what I did, I pushed 9 and the file does say PublicDomain but it still told me it is unknown license type < 1317242976 261183 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://osdir.com/ml/lang.haskell.cabal.devel/2008-02/msg00218.html seems to indicate something like this was fixed years ago? < 1317243130 27565 :tromp!~tromp@rtc34-222.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, elliot < 1317243156 479063 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION picks up a t tromp lost < 1317243213 544045 :tromp!~tromp@rtc34-222.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry; was busy shortening my smallest brainfuck interpreter:( < 1317243227 620847 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :APOLOGY ACCEPTED < 1317243263 610774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: a hint, you can type the first few letters of someone's name then press tab < 1317243267 864269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your client will fill in the rest for you < 1317243303 709859 :tromp!~tromp@rtc34-222.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx for the tip, ais523 < 1317243849 448744 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : can parentheses be considered to have a precedence? <-- if doing a bison/yacc grammar I would probably not handle parens as an operator with a defined associative and precedence... < 1317243893 940404 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you might need ( to be highest precedence to parse things like a . b ( c ) correctly. < 1317243905 916165 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might be the default < 1317243954 110039 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :) doesn't need one though, since it must be matched with the previous ( regardless < 1317243961 84784 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so i think < 1317244128 659640 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.110 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1317244172 827455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think you might need ( to be highest precedence to parse things like a . b ( c ) correctly. <-- what sort of grammar is that? < 1317244186 295338 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskellike? < 1317244189 724632 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1317244202 111457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, could have been a object oriented member function call too < 1317244212 697824 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :a.b(c) < 1317244218 933481 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i first put + there but it seemed more logical with a higher-order operator < 1317244299 194194 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Con Air on TV CON AIR IS ON TV GUYS < 1317244324 375428 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't believe him he's a con full of hot air < 1317244387 53903 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well it does need a precedence in the language but I was assuming he was using something like yacc or bison, where you normally use something like: %left PLUS MINUS\n%left TIMES DIVIDE or whatever to assign priority of operators. I just said I wouldn't use that method for () < 1317244426 598098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather would do something like term : LPAREN expr RPAREN or such < 1317244430 627872 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ok then i guess i just said you could :P < 1317244439 401904 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god Chief O'Brien is in this < 1317244453 308547 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course all precedence can be replaced by splitting token types in principle < 1317244463 426299 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where expr : expr PLUS EXPR | ... | term < 1317244465 536287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1317244474 572982 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :err make the second expr lower case < 1317244490 209307 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall there might be tricky cases though < 1317244505 366939 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and yes. But how does %left in bison and such interact when you have more than one terminal in a production? < 1317244508 723395 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-78-146-167-200.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: what a big quitter he is, eh? < 1317244520 730364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trantor_Hoover, why that nick? < 1317244538 988766 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, because it's really hot here just like on Trantor. < 1317244556 611812 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1317244560 756365 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh. i'm not sure which it chooses but iirc you can give a production an explicit precedence too < 1317244582 590717 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh right, that is true < 1317244627 279303 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you invent a pseudo-token and do a %left xyyz or such above, and then you use something like: foo : BAR quux BAZ %prec xyyz { ... } iirc? < 1317244640 710171 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :where xyyz is the pseudo-token < 1317244653 184245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if it needs to be upper case as terminals < 1317244654 204847 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rings a bell. you don't need a pseudo-token if a real one fits, i think. < 1317244656 985095 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK so < 1317244658 966475 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :inevitably < 1317244662 57601 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it gets to the end < 1317244663 669171 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh that is probably true < 1317244666 486268 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will be in hysterics < 1317244684 842507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway parens should probably use %nonassoc (or was it %noassoc)? < 1317244691 842729 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my parents are here < 1317244704 704461 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1317244796 309458 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i don't think it will matter, since all productions involving parens should match them and so will not have an opportunity for ambiguity of ( ... ( ... ( < 1317244812 313770 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway I still find writing bison style grammars far easier than using parsec. I really would prefer a bison style parser generator for haskell. Especially since that avoids backtracking due to the bottom up nature, while parsec is top-down. < 1317244822 405146 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true < 1317244827 584005 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's called happy :P < 1317244836 822047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm, should try that out < 1317244840 923868 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(never used it) < 1317244916 692682 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, another issue with parsec: left-recursive grammars. Requires extra work than what you need in yacc. < 1317244925 975382 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/than/compared to/ < 1317244970 967148 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah a bit < 1317245064 760273 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i recall someone recently having trouble making parsec's expressionparser stuff work right. < 1317245070 923182 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1317245084 350171 :Nisstyre!~yours@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1317245091 824306 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw do you happen to know how yacc and bison are able to detect shift/reduce and reduce/reduce conflicts when generating the code (as opposed to during parsing when it is obvious how to do it)? < 1317245142 290232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they compile the grammar definition to lookup tables < 1317245152 235183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a conflict would require putting two different numbers in the same cell of the lookup table < 1317245156 457570 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1317245170 572393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yet those issues are only warnings. That is strange < 1317245186 921134 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: reduce/reduce are fatal, aren't they... < 1317245187 704361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they can be sorted out by giving defaults < 1317245191 74949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh maybe < 1317245196 872609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift/reduce are not at least < 1317245199 963487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally, reduce/reduce is really bad and a problem with your grammar unless you expliclty say which is wanted < 1317245208 265242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift/reduce can normally be sorted by using operator precedence < 1317245214 621867 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1317245215 729483 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but shift/reduce defaults to shift because it's the "greedy" behavior you usually want < 1317245233 153334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually, it defaults to the operator of higher precedence reducing first < 1317245247 478422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the default for the same precedence depends on associativity < 1317245248 44209 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um i mean if there is no precedence resolution < 1317245254 878581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the default associativity is to shift first < 1317245275 942617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift/reduce defaulting to shift means operators are treated as right associative by default, no? < 1317245294 492154 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the haskell report explicitly says that ambiguous syntax is resolved greedily < 1317245320 902378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so did the CLC-INTERCAL definition, until nobody could figure out what it meant any more < 1317245325 746222 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i think so < 1317245326 548897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked out some of the simpler cases by experiment < 1317245346 764281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: so did the CLC-INTERCAL definition, until nobody could figure out what it meant any more <-- eh, in the user manual or what? < 1317245355 306177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it was mentioned in a readme somewhere, IIRC < 1317245360 410890 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1317245387 695024 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1317245391 152494 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, this is like the LR(1) thing in the intercal manual you mentioned before. Really hard to understand unless you wrote an implementation < 1317245416 499433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I wrote a testcase and a document about it < 1317245420 778899 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1317245436 769685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns out that C-INTERCAL still wasn't doing it right when I started maintaing it, even though there'd been attempted bugfixes of that several times < 1317245446 958119 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you did LR(inf) right for c-intercal? How? < 1317245495 815288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly; the parser works out what sort of spark/ears nesting it's in < 1317245500 880237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lets the lexer know < 1317245512 576130 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, how does it do that? < 1317245516 433219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the lexer can then work out whether a ' or " is definitely closing, or whether it might be opening < 1317245549 571991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that still doesn't handle every case, but it does handle everything that the INTERCAL-72 manual says you have to be able to handle (presumably because they couldn't figure out how to parse the other cases either) < 1317245551 281418 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317245587 969239 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, I thought {...} stuff in bison was executed after the entire production was matched? So where would you embed this code? < 1317245589 398387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there's an informal agreement to always alternate sparks and ears at different levels of nesting, and then the problem doesn't come up at all < 1317245600 358553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: in the {...} < 1317245616 499564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lexer pushes opening sparkears onto a stack, the parser pops them again < 1317245621 1916 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hh < 1317245622 725107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh* < 1317245660 614944 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what are the cases it can't handle? < 1317245662 923092 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317245740 638763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me dig one up < 1317245749 216445 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1317245783 332297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's an example that does work now but used not to, and actually happened in practice: DO .5 <- '?"'#65535~"'?.7$",2SUB.1"'~#21845"'~#1"$#1'~#3 < 1317245806 63981 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1317245817 456302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a contrived example that doesn't work even with the current code: DO .1 <- ,3SUB",2SUB.1".2~.3"".4 < 1317245830 665418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yeah that looks weird < 1317245844 52360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(admittedly, anyone writing that sort of thing is almost certainly trying to deliberately obfuscate their code) < 1317245860 685105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better way to write the same thing is DO .1 <- ,3SUB",2SUB1'.2~.3'".4 < 1317245867 496311 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1317245874 666652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where it's completely clear how it nests (and that is accepted) < 1317245875 721796 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that code do? < 1317245880 757200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing particularly useful < 1317245936 227346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, it becomes something like d1 = c3[c2[1][iselect(d2,d3)]][d4] < 1317246245 822760 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colm Meany's American accent is... pretty bad. < 1317246469 184933 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woah, what? This sonic hack for the genesis has Helix Nebula playing by Anamanaguchi in the intro < 1317246482 726570 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone wrote an mp3 decoder for genesis I guess < 1317246489 931500 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiMeE0vJTnQ < 1317246537 975883 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, *no*, another Humble Bundle. < 1317246620 831212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't too impressed by the last one < 1317246625 132112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the one before, FWIW < 1317246634 962723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the games feel unfinished, short, and many aren't much fun < 1317246675 527138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I completed And Yet It Moves (apart from the bonus levels and achievements); I was happy with the difficulty it started with and ended with, but its difficulty curve is too inconsistent to make it all that fun < 1317246682 85529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it got samish after a while < 1317246712 736218 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one has Frozen Synapse in it. < 1317246731 194858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, they emailed me too < 1317246750 85781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was planning to pay more than the £5 I originally paid if the games were good enough < 1317246757 539599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think it's worth more than £5, in retrospect < 1317246758 992386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I won't < 1317246837 80584 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frozen Synapse has been universally acclaimed from what I've seen. < 1317246847 80167 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :frozen synapse owns < 1317246848 719811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard of it, but might look at it < 1317246878 919834 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let op o c a = a $ \x b -> b $ \y -> c $ x `o` y; calc a = a id; num n = ($ n) in calc (op (*)) (op (+)) (num 2) (num 3) (num 4) < 1317246880 109115 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 20 < 1317246896 833421 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1317246937 700202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RPN Haskell? < 1317246958 376426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t `o c a -> a $ \x b -> b $ \y -> c $ x `o` y < 1317246959 397805 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input ``' < 1317246962 417380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \o c a -> a $ \x b -> b $ \y -> c $ x `o` y < 1317246963 485681 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b t b1 t1 a b2. (t -> t1 -> a) -> (a -> b2) -> ((t -> ((t1 -> b2) -> b1) -> b1) -> b) -> b < 1317246981 848687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there's more going on there than meets the eye < 1317246991 980015 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :PN, not RPN < 1317246993 616809 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :PN, not RPN < 1317247012 34753 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1317247015 183591 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was inspired by cakeprophet's log troubles < 1317247016 619565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse RPN < 1317247033 936100 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be a way to do it RPN too < 1317247145 427168 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION buys on impulse. < 1317247224 374238 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real MP3 decoding on the Genesis/MegaDrive sounds slightly unlikely; it has a 68k-alike at 7.67 MHz. I'm under the impression that even well-optimized MP3 decoding takes around 40 MIPS. Though maybe with parameters low enough, who knows. < 1317247254 682074 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bastards. < 1317247286 188558 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've made the lowest default payment $20. < 1317247302 827162 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M GIVING YOU TEN DOLLARS DEAL WITH IT < 1317247315 473353 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn (t -> t1 -> a) -> (a -> b2) -> ((t -> ((t1 -> b2) -> b1) -> b1) -> b) -> b < 1317247315 883373 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a b c = c (\ d e -> e (\ f -> b (a d f))) < 1317247342 555383 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you think it might be a wav then? < 1317247407 894205 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not exactly a "wav", but something more easily decodable at least. < 1317247438 206644 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Integrated IRC chat" as a game feature sounds a) weird and b) RAS-syndromish. < 1317247535 143536 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let op o (x,(y,s)) c = c (x `o` y, s); calc a = a (); stop s = s; num n s = ($ (n, s)) in calc (num 3) (num 4) (num 2) (op (+)) (op (*)) stop < 1317247536 506205 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (18,()) < 1317247559 413062 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1317247567 413035 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let op o (x,(y,s)) c = c (y `o` x, s); calc a = a (); stop s = s; num n s = ($ (n, s)) in calc (num 3) (num 4) (num 2) (op (+)) (op (*)) stop < 1317247568 493095 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (18,()) < 1317247587 631289 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha: 'The PCM music takes up a lot of space, which is why the ROM is 6MB. ' < 1317247589 332738 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, what's PCM < 1317247602 928429 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Raw audio, basically. < 1317247607 392782 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :figures < 1317247627 123117 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you might call a wav, except the .wav file container can contain pretty much anything. < 1317247627 448623 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it'd have to be mp3 because whenever I have a wav of a song it's like, 20 megabytes < 1317247633 252939 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no way you could fit that much < 1317247738 242353 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's, say, mono and 22.050 kHz and 8 bits per sample, that's already just one eighth the bytes of "CD quality" (44.1 kHz, 16-bit, stereo) audio. < 1317247769 324638 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think Genesis has more than 1 PCM-enabled channel.) < 1317247951 6883 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Integrated IRC chat" as a game feature sounds a) weird and b) RAS-syndromish. < 1317247955 373013 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uplink dude. < 1317248019 540705 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Frozen Synapse isn't available for 64-bit Linux... < 1317248112 299333 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uplink had an IRC client? I never even noticed. < 1317248188 115970 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will there be an Uplink 2? < 1317248241 894459 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you need to buy it. < 1317248267 894239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :buy an IRC client? < 1317248269 360375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1317248278 335586 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in-game money, not real money < 1317248278 995104 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's uplink, piracy is unheard of. < 1317248279 857144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are plenty of good free ones, for Linux at least < 1317248299 586274 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the game itself costs real money < 1317248321 474613 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I on ais523's mental ignore again? < 1317248343 956573 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Want whois? You're damn well paying for it. < 1317248361 236032 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lost the file copier? Guess what! < 1317248378 835284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: not mental ignore, just crossed messages < 1317248559 515422 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you go about losing a file copier? < 1317248576 40854 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie "RAS-syndromish"? < 1317248576 902434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm /bin/cp? < 1317248589 124443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: RAS syndrome = Redundant Acronym Syndrom syndrome < 1317248597 54193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a joke originally made by New Scientist, but it caught on < 1317248600 168375 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1317248646 852173 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I saw another game with integrated irc client than uplink. Recent too. Trying to remember the name of it. < 1317248657 225952 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :tactical simulator kind of thingy iirc < 1317248665 583840 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frozen Synapse? < 1317248669 350891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah yes < 1317248674 856049 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1317248678 241817 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what I was talking about, not Uplink. < 1317248681 162472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1317248692 80645 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been the topic, thanks to being in a new Bundle. < 1317248699 272222 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh new bundle!? < 1317248710 784958 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of one game. < 1317248726 352208 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what < 1317248746 380283 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could call it a bundloid. < 1317248747 694272 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Cameron Poe then reunites with his loving wife and daughter." < 1317248752 970549 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WP plot synopsis. < 1317248755 101122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there are bonuses < 1317248862 383435 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Another departmental christmas party thing: there was a standard Linux installation, the task was to read a particular file (/etc/motd, I think) by the most "creative" means. And the part that makes it related: all the external-executable commands (such as 'cp') you used were disabled by means of a 'rm' (itself exempt, I think) to up the difficulty and enforce the "creativity". < 1317248892 113953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does just "< /etc/motd" in the shell work? < 1317248895 566619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try that < 1317248907 321765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: /etc/motd: No such file or directory < 1317248908 818837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1317248922 291366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just "< /etc/passwd" gave no response, anyway < 1317248926 797259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess it doesn't actually output it < 1317248931 301230 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can you use gcc? < 1317248958 19950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checks it for existence < 1317248966 786156 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It would just set up a fd for it, not actually read it. Though bash does have a 'read' and all. < 1317248991 724961 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Well, yes, once. Then nobody else can, after. < 1317249023 242468 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, write a program that opens /dev/sha, parses the MBT, then parses the partition < 1317249023 570884 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall the solutions, but some were appropriately creative, after the easy ones had been done. < 1317249052 965108 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. < 1317249055 631698 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might still be on a wall somewhere. < 1317249110 555172 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write a program that includes gcc and ln into itself, then on execution, outputs the gcc binary, the ln binary, etc, etc and reads /etc/motd by manually parsing the HD < 1317249150 534409 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :bought it < 1317249156 522269 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bonus games look fun < 1317249242 985817 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you allowed to create a shar for /? < 1317249251 241946 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. cheating) < 1317249271 185110 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have the frozenbyte bundle, so I'm not sure whether to get this new one. Maybe I should try the demo. < 1317249295 338300 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, since I lacked the frozenbyte bundle this looked great for me < 1317249303 215069 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: This was in christmas 2009, how should I know? I don't think anyone "cheated". < 1317249340 426533 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god < 1317249341 944473 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1317249347 230835 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think That Scene is coming up. < 1317249358 809354 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just pay less than $4. < 1317249359 405301 :Sgeo|web_!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1317249366 309757 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll get only Frozen Synapse. < 1317249373 637375 :Sgeo|web_!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck accidentally hitting close < 1317249376 878890 :Sgeo|web_!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK IT IN ITS ASS < 1317249390 228956 :Sgeo|web_!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, why am I so irritable < 1317249451 296998 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Were I Madoka-Kaname, I would make some unsettling reference to hormones. < 1317249476 890251 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would never do that < 1317249489 506307 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1317249494 361477 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You went through a whole phase of hormones, remember? < 1317249495 932232 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shadowgrounds: survivor is 1.1 GB in download? heh < 1317249498 592381 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wait... < 1317249501 324837 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is quite large for an indie game < 1317249505 725496 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION baps Trantor_Hoover  < 1317249623 527134 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :this... is going to take a while < 1317249675 742764 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omaogmogmgomgomogmomgomgom it is thaat sine omgomgomgomgom < 1317249728 721972 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7544.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1317249819 549488 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the sound track is a larger download than the game for Frozen Synapse? < 1317249820 303710 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1317249829 539583 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :crying of laughter < 1317249829 630183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd quality or something?) < 1317249838 621327 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/)// < 1317249893 755255 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db41ce7.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317249984 879576 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1317249986 441934 :Trantor_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1317250091 539836 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there still? < 1317250106 731853 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can't get the creation of an account in frozen synapse to work < 1317250109 600950 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1317250118 997189 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just times out < 1317250347 782421 :Sgeo|web_!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Love, love, is a (procedurally-generated MMO), love is a doing (procedurally-generated MMO), < 1317250497 504689 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you okay? < 1317250534 589980 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is just stating the facts, apparently < 1317250673 301416 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1317250800 334388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, works now < 1317250871 265027 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1317251064 266031 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317251190 577019 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix (brain Vorpal) < 1317251191 695978 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `brain'Not in scope: data constructor `Vorpal' < 1317251194 564229 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damnit. < 1317251212 112952 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317251697 719461 :Sgeo|web_!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thomas Edison Invents Marketing Other People's Ideas < 1317251865 180828 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1317253261 429196 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1317253640 821680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1317254085 413125 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric