00:00:09 I don't mean that. I mean Linux or Windows game. 00:00:20 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mainframe_computer#Description this sounds so awesome 00:00:38 eh, I tend to not use the term "PC game" 00:00:39 Vorpal: Well, at least that is somewhat better than meaning Windows-only. 00:01:09 zzo38: basically it means to me anything that could run on my desktop, which has windows and linux installed. 00:01:22 that is, without the use of an emulator 00:01:34 there's a wine and a line, I wonder if there's a mine 00:01:44 tiffany: line? 00:01:53 linux for windows? 00:01:54 it's some backwards version of wine 00:01:59 heh 00:02:01 how weird 00:02:26 oh and wine generally fails on high end games. Especially on radeon graphics. 00:03:15 Many UNIX programs can be recompiled to run on Windows by using Cygwin. 00:03:24 slowly 00:03:28 cygwin is quite horrible 00:03:33 meh 00:03:41 wine fails on newer directX's for me 00:03:51 cygwin is terrible, but better than the alternative of nothing. 00:04:00 it runs portal 1 (although super slow at loading things), but not portal 2 00:04:05 and also runs opengl games perfectly 00:04:06 tiffany: it seems to work with dx10 stuff sometimes. Never dx11 00:04:10 yeah 00:04:26 and then opengl stuff I've always found are faster on linux under wine then they are natively on windows :P 00:04:32 tiffany: portal 1 runs fine in wine 00:04:37 Depending on the way a program is written, it might work even with MinGW. When I write a C prorgam I try to make it work on Windows with MinGW, and on any UNIX systems, just as well. 00:04:44 tiffany: oh? what games on windows use opengl? 00:04:48 blockland 00:04:58 tiffany: never heard of it, what sort of game is it? 00:05:05 it's a block building game :p 00:05:05 please please not a mc clone 00:05:08 nope 00:05:27 It was started in like 2003 I think, and it's a lego kind of game 00:05:28 tiffany: so what is it about then, block building but not an mc clone? 00:05:31 oh 00:05:44 tiffany: I have done lego under wine. CAD. 00:05:50 :I 00:06:21 you know what I should do? I should design a device so I can do CAM with lego. The device would be built in lego too 00:06:33 no idea how to pull it off, but it sounds awesome 00:06:52 ESPECIALLY if it could replicate itself from lego parts 00:08:41 on a completely unrelated note: different headphones makes a much larger difference than different sound cards. Though both matter. 00:09:06 `run units --version 00:09:08 sh: units: command not found 00:09:19 CakeProphet: version NaN 00:12:35 `fetch ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/units/units-1.88.tar.gz 00:12:38 2011-10-03 00:12:38 URL: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/units/units-1.88.tar.gz [261519] -> "units-1.88.tar.gz" [1] 00:13:02 `run tar xfz units-1.88.tar.gz 00:13:04 No output. 00:13:13 `ls 00:13:15 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom 00:13:23 `ls units-1.88 00:13:25 COPYING \ ChangeLog \ INSTALL \ Makefile.OS2 \ Makefile.dos \ Makefile.in \ NEWS \ README \ README.OS2 \ configure \ configure.ac \ getopt.c \ getopt.h \ getopt1.c \ install-sh \ makeobjs.cmd \ mkinstalldirs \ parse.tab.c \ parse.y \ strfunc.c \ texi2man \ units.c \ units.dat \ units.doc \ units.dvi \ units.h \ units.info 00:13:32 ... :( 00:13:45 can I make something without being in the right directory? 00:13:51 ah wait nevermind. 00:15:01 `run chmod +x units-1.88/configure 00:15:03 No output. 00:15:24 `run cd units-1.88 && ./configure && make 00:15:55 checking for gcc... gcc \ checking for C compiler default output file name... a.out \ checking whether the C compiler works... yes \ checking whether we are cross compiling... no \ checking for suffix of executables... \ checking for suffix of object files... o \ checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes 00:16:01 CakeProphet: argh 00:16:08 CakeProphet: it will time out the command 00:16:10 but 00:16:17 `run cd units-1.88 && make 00:16:19 make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop. 00:16:23 well 00:16:30 before it finished configuring even 00:16:38 so... 00:16:40 wat do? 00:16:52 `run cd units-1.88 && ./configure --prefix=$HOME/units &> errors.log 00:17:08 `url units-1.88/errors.log 00:17:10 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/units-1.88/errors.log 00:17:18 not there yet 00:17:20 I guess 00:17:23 No output. 00:17:35 CakeProphet: but BEST way is to just wait for gregor 00:17:42 no way. 00:17:51 `url units-1.88/errors.log 00:17:51 and the error log file didn't work 00:17:53 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/units-1.88/errors.log 00:17:53 no idea why 00:18:15 CakeProphet: file was never created 00:18:22 probably buffering 00:18:34 CakeProphet: anyway there is no time for configure to complete 00:18:37 `run cd units-1.88 && make install 00:18:38 CakeProphet: better way 00:18:39 make: *** No rule to make target `install'. Stop. 00:18:40 `arch 00:18:42 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: arch: not found 00:18:43 Vorpal: who needs configure :P 00:18:47 `uname -a 00:18:48 I'll just pretend the makefile works. 00:18:49 Linux (none) 3.0.1-umlbox #5 Fri Aug 19 13:17:44 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux 00:18:52 CakeProphet: ... 00:18:56 CakeProphet: there IS NO MAKEFILE 00:19:09 CakeProphet: compile a static x86-64 units locally and upload it 00:19:11 that should work 00:19:20 what would the likelihood be of me giving it my units executable and it running with absolutely no problems? 00:19:23 er 00:19:25 that 00:19:27 yes 00:19:29 CakeProphet: link it statically 00:19:32 not dynamically 00:19:40 I'm guessing this is not what apt-get does by default 00:19:45 CakeProphet: indeed 00:19:54 it will be dynamic by default of course 00:20:07 one second while I learn how to do that. 00:20:14 CakeProphet: I assume you are able to figure out the rest by yourself. I'm going to sleep 00:23:20 -!- augur has joined. 00:28:03 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:30:35 `ls 00:30:37 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom 00:30:55 `rm -r units-1.88* 00:30:57 rm: invalid option -- \ Try `rm --help' for more information. 00:30:57 `ls 00:30:59 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom 00:31:07 `run rm -r units-1.88* 00:31:10 No output. 00:31:10 `ls 00:31:12 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ units-1.88 \ units-1.88.tar.gz \ wisdom 00:31:46 `run rm -r units-1.88 && rm units-1.88 00:31:48 rm: cannot remove `units-1.88': No such file or directory 00:31:51 ... 00:31:52 `ls 00:31:54 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom 00:31:59 weird. 00:34:34 `ls lib 00:34:36 adjustkarma 00:35:56 `mkdir /usr/local/share 00:35:58 mkdir: cannot create directory `/usr/local/share': File exists 00:36:18 `mkdir -p /usr/local/share 00:36:19 mkdir: invalid option -- \ Try `mkdir --help' for more information. 00:36:22 `run mkdir -p /usr/local/share 00:36:24 No output. 00:38:14 CakeProphet: HackEgo's repository merging sometimes means a command does not yet see the result of a previous command 00:38:23 ah 00:38:53 hmmm for some reason my static compile isn't working but I have no clue why.. 00:39:11 make install doesn't really give me an error output just a bunch of command echos. 00:39:26 CakeProphet: i do not think you have writing access to /usr 00:39:48 you mean locally? I do if I use sudo, of course.. 00:39:57 i mean on HackEgo 00:40:04 oh. that's weird. 00:40:14 it's not running as root :P 00:40:27 `ls 00:40:29 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom 00:40:31 hm or... 00:40:38 that's the home directory 00:40:43 `ls -l / 00:40:46 ls: invalid option -- \ Try `ls --help' for more information. 00:40:48 `run ls -l / 00:40:50 total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Mar 25 2011 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 4096 Feb 5 2011 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 3 00:40 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 7 5000 0 4096 Oct 3 00:40 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 3 00:40 home \ drwxr-xr-x 10 0 0 4096 Mar 25 2011 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 10 0 0 4096 Mar 25 2011 00:40:57 ah 00:41:02 didn't realize that was home. 00:41:15 `run ls /lib 00:41:17 cpp \ init \ ld-2.7.so \ ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ libBrokenLocale-2.7.so \ libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libacl.so.1 \ libacl.so.1.1.0 \ libanl-2.7.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libattr.so.1 \ libattr.so.1.1.0 \ libblkid.so.1 \ libblkid.so.1.0 \ libbz2.so.1 \ libbz2.so.1.0 \ libbz2.so.1.0.4 \ libc-2.7.so \ libc.so.6 \ libcfont.so.0 00:41:29 `run ls /lib/local/share 00:41:31 ls: cannot access /lib/local/share: No such file or directory 00:41:42 so then... 00:41:55 `run mkdir -p usr/lib/share 00:41:57 No output. 00:41:57 ??? 00:41:59 `ls 00:42:01 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom 00:42:22 `run mkdir -p usr/lib/share 2>&1 00:42:24 No output. 00:42:35 `ls 00:42:37 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom 00:42:53 >_> 00:42:55 oh 00:43:06 the repository doesn't preserve empty dirs :P 00:44:09 `run mkdir -p usr/local/share 2>&1 && touch usr/lol && touch usr/local/lol && touch /usr/local/share/lol 00:44:11 touch: cannot touch `/usr/local/share/lol': Read-only file system 00:44:15 :P 00:44:32 `run mkdir -p usr/local/share 2>&1 && touch usr/lol && touch usr/local/lol && touch usr/local/share/lol 00:44:35 No output. 00:44:38 `ls 00:44:39 i don't think you need a file in the intermediate ones. but who knows. 00:44:40 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ usr \ wisdom 00:45:11 uh... so I'm too clear on how run this configure script to make it work in this environment... 00:45:33 well i cannot answer that. 00:45:55 ./configure --exec-prefix="/home/hackenv/bin" --datadir="/home/hackenv/usr/local/share" 00:45:57 I guess? 00:46:01 let's fine out. 00:46:21 `run pwd 00:46:23 ​/hackenv 00:46:27 oh 00:46:28 ah 00:46:41 so this environment is basically completely non-standard :P 00:46:53 would seem so 00:47:17 good that makes things fun. 00:48:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:48:37 `run rm -r usr 00:48:39 No output. 00:48:53 `run mkdir share && touch share/foo 00:48:55 No output. 00:48:57 `ls 00:48:59 bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom 00:51:02 `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units 00:51:04 2011-10-03 00:51:04 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units [146396/146396] -> "units" [1] 00:51:11 `mv units bin 00:51:13 mv: missing destination file operand after `units bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information. 00:51:30 `run mv units bin 00:51:32 No output. 00:51:36 `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/share/units.dat 00:51:38 2011-10-03 00:51:38 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/share/units.dat [221844/221844] -> "units.dat" [1] 00:51:41 `run mv units.dat share 00:51:43 No output. 00:52:10 `run units --version 00:52:12 sh: /hackenv/bin/units: Permission denied 00:52:21 `run chmod +x bin/units 00:52:23 No output. 00:52:24 `run units --version 00:52:26 sh: /hackenv/bin/units: Permission denied 00:52:37 `run chmod +x bin/units 2>&1 00:52:38 No output. 00:52:41 `run units --version 00:52:43 units: error while loading shared libraries: libreadline.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 00:52:52 ....oh, not static apparently. 00:53:20 I thought I fixed that... 00:53:37 `run ls -l bin/units 00:53:39 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 146396 Oct 3 00:53 bin/units 00:55:02 http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html 00:55:22 I think I might have to like... add a bunch of linker flags to weird places? 00:55:27 or something? 00:55:31 I don't really understand. 00:57:27 this configure script apparently doesn't have --enable-static or --disable-shared 01:00:16 augur: i think everyone here but me did stuff like that yesterday 01:00:33 i cannot recall if you were involved 01:01:09 is viznut someone known here? 01:01:15 oerjan: its cool :o 01:01:53 by the finnish guys, perhaps 01:02:13 well it is pouet 01:02:32 pouet? 01:03:05 according to the autoconf file units generates both static and share by default??? 01:03:11 hm 01:03:17 but... I only see one 01:08:07 I wonder if #gnu can help me. :P 01:08:18 probably too busy saving the world. 01:10:25 CakeProphet: --enable-static and --disable-shared, contrary to common belief, does not mean "link this statically". 01:10:36 oh. 01:10:40 CakeProphet: --enable-static enables building static libraries, and --disable-shared disables building shared libraries. 01:10:48 well I did LDFLAGS="-static" as well 01:10:48 What you want is LDFLAGS=-static 01:10:51 yes 01:11:03 but uh... it's still shared for some reason? 01:11:31 Then the person who made that program does not know autoconf. :P 01:11:45 wait do I need to export LDFLAGS? 01:12:05 Depends, how are you setting it? 01:12:12 LDFLAGS=-static; ...? 01:12:15 ...yes 01:12:16 just in a shell 01:12:19 Or LDFLAGS=-static ...? 01:12:20 terminal 01:12:28 erm.... 01:12:32 Congrats, you don't know shell. :P 01:12:46 I wasn't aware you could even do that. 01:12:52 nor do I know what it means. 01:13:17 it might depend on the shell 01:13:18 FOO=bar will export FOO=bar for the following command. 01:13:24 oh okay. 01:13:30 It's... Kinda a common shell idiom. 01:13:59 Up there with pipes in commonness. 01:15:08 (.text+0x38db): warning: Using 'endpwent' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking 01:15:26 pikhq_: yeah yeah 01:17:19 pikhq_: also does this warning sound like it will be a problem? 01:17:48 CakeProphet: Not for the intended usecase: HackEgo has the glibc .sos. 01:18:02 `run ls /usr/lib/share/libc* 01:18:04 ls: cannot access /usr/lib/share/libc*: No such file or directory 01:18:40 hm... 01:19:17 * oerjan cannot be bothered 01:21:20 `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units 01:21:23 2011-10-03 01:21:22 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units [146396/146396] -> "units" [1] 01:21:41 `run chmod +x units && mv units bin 01:21:43 No output. 01:21:49 `run units --version 01:21:51 units: error while loading shared libraries: libreadline.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 01:21:55 -_- 01:23:08 grabbed the wrong one 01:24:02 `fetch http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units 01:24:08 2011-10-03 01:24:08 URL:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/hackenv/bin/units [1613113/1613113] -> "units" [1] 01:24:09 `run chmod +x units && mv units bin 01:24:12 No output. 01:24:20 `run units --version 01:24:22 GNU Units version 1.88 \ with readline, units database in /hackenv/share/units.dat \ Copyright (C) 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ GNU Units comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. \ You may redistribute copies of GNU Units \ under the terms of the GNU General Public License. \ 01:24:25 -!- ive has joined. 01:24:26 weeee 01:25:13 `run units '75 F' 'C' 01:25:15 conformability error \.75 A^2 s^4 / kg m^2 \.1 A s 01:25:21 ... 01:25:22 heh 01:25:28 -!- MichaelBurge_ has joined. 01:25:30 not sure hot to specify temps 01:25:39 -!- MichaelBurge has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:25:46 `run units '135 pounds' 'kilograms' 01:25:49 ​* 61.23497 \./ 0.016330538 01:26:09 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:26:18 `run units '135 tempF' 'tempC' 01:26:21 Error in '135 tempF': Parse error 01:26:35 `run units 'tempF(135)' 'tempC' 01:26:36 `run units '273.15 K' celsius 01:26:37 57.222222 01:26:38 Unknown unit 'celsius' 01:26:42 there we go 01:26:43 wut 01:26:48 yeah that one is weird... 01:26:53 `run units '273.15 K' tempC 01:26:55 0 01:27:43 Think of `tempF(x)' not as a function but as a notation which indicates that `x' should have units of `tempF' attached to it. See Nonlinear units. The first conversion shows that if it's 45 degrees Fahrehneit outside it's 7.2 degrees Celsius. The second conversions indicates that a change of 45 degrees Fahrenheit corresponds to a change of 25 degrees Celsius. 01:27:43 `run units '1.000025 c' m 01:27:45 conformability error \.2.9979995e+08 m / s \.1 m 01:27:51 c? 01:27:56 oh 01:28:02 `run units '1.000025 c' 'm/s' 01:28:04 ​* 2.9979995e+08 \./ 3.3355576e-09 01:29:24 so any non-linear conversion uses the function notation. 01:29:44 `run units '1/picobarn' 'm^2' 01:29:45 reciprocal conversion \..* 1e-40 \./ 1e+40 01:29:55 oops 01:30:00 `run units '1 picobarn' 'm^2' 01:30:02 ​* 1e-40 \./ 1e+40 01:30:35 `run units '1 beardsecond' 'nanometer' 01:30:38 Unknown unit 'beardsecond' 01:30:44 what? proposterous 01:31:25 strictly speaking celsius -> fahrenheit is perfectly linear :) 01:31:49 well yeah, they mean that it can't be expresses a conversion factor 01:31:55 *expressed 01:32:14 kind of an arbitrary distinction I guess 01:32:48 `run units '1 romanfeet' 'feet' 01:32:50 ​* 0.97112861 \./ 1.0297297 01:33:00 `run units '1 olympicfeet' 'feet' 01:33:02 ​* 1.0125 \./ 0.98765432 01:33:05 `run units '1 light nanosecond' feet 01:33:07 ​* 0.98357106 \./ 1.0167034 01:34:41 `run units '1 c' 'furlongs/fortnight' 01:34:43 ​* 1.8026175e+12 \./ 5.5474886e-13 01:35:02 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:36:33 `run echo "beardsecond 5 nanometers" >> share/units.dat 01:36:35 No output. 01:36:51 `run units '1 beardsecond' 'feet' 01:36:53 ​* 1.6404199e-08 \./ 60960000 01:37:02 `run units '5000 beardseconds' 'feet' 01:37:04 ​* 8.2020997e-05 \./ 12192 01:37:07 excellent 01:39:29 `run units '5000 beardseconds/hour' 'feet/year' 01:39:30 ​* 0.71898071 \./ 1.3908579 01:39:49 `run units '5000 beardseconds/second' 'feet/year' 01:39:51 ​* 2588.3305 \./ 0.00038634942 01:40:22 I'm interpreting that to mean that 5000 men produce 2588 feet of beard on average per year? 01:43:31 !delinterp insanetemp 01:43:39 NO EGOBOT 01:44:37 `run units '1 beardseconds/second' 'feet/year' 01:44:39 ​* 0.51766611 \./ 1.9317471 01:46:12 `run units '424 demisemiquavers' 'wholenotes' 01:46:14 ​* 13.25 \./ 0.075471698 01:46:45 `run units 'majorsecond' 'minorthird' 01:46:47 ​* 0.9375 \./ 1.0666667 01:46:52 lol nice. 02:22:08 The best way is not to wait for me. 02:22:13 The best way is to Just Do It™. 02:22:18 I'm glad to see that's what you did :P 02:25:32 yeaaaaah 02:25:41 fuck deferrence. 02:26:11 also I learned stuff. 02:26:50 like how to statically link via a configure script, and that variable export idiom thing, 02:27:32 USEFUL THINGS IN THESE MODERN TIMES. 02:29:31 waiting on Gregor seemed counter to the spirit of HackEgo. :P 02:34:47 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:35:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:35:22 Exactly! 02:39:22 -!- Sgeo|fsck_web has joined. 02:39:33 * Sgeo|fsck_web tried playing kathack on the Chrome new tab page 02:43:12 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:43:16 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 02:46:35 Anyone in here use god? 02:46:59 http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/god 02:47:13 * Sgeo|fsck_web is easily amused 02:58:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:58:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:12:15 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:26:14 -!- Pergamentum has joined. 03:27:22 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:28:00 -!- Pergamentum has left. 03:28:52 not very permanentum 03:29:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:36:36 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: Bai~). 03:38:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:38:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:53:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:53:50 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:56:29 * Sgeo|fsck_web irritates at Mibbit's pastebin service 04:14:06 `logs improbable[.]com/ig.*2011 04:14:08 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found 04:14:14 `log improbable[.]com/ig.*2011 04:14:35 No output. 04:14:46 That was improbable. 04:14:57 seems no one has mentioned it yet, despite 2 days passed: http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/?repost#ig2011 04:15:49 (the ?repost was probably just to get it accepted by reddit's repost filter) 04:21:24 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:22:21 i think many of us should heed the results from the literature prize. 04:23:09 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 04:25:25 omg the physics prize XD 04:28:02 the public safety prize sounds safe. yeah. 04:30:35 "Peace: Arturas Zuokas, the mayor of Vilnius, Lithuania, for demonstrating that the problem of illegally parked luxury cars can be solved by running over them with a tank." 04:32:42 Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /usr/www/users/improb/ig/ig-pastwinners.html:1) in /usr/www/users/improb/wp-includes/functions.php on line 3286 04:32:54 PHP clearly got an Ignoble Prize 04:37:09 -!- Jafet has joined. 05:05:03 "Error establishing a database connection" too 05:07:20 hm well it was working previously 05:09:23 oerjan: who were the winners this year? 05:09:45 saw something about turtles and yawning mentioned somewhere iirc? 05:09:59 yes, that was the physiology prize 05:10:50 "Peace: Arturas Zuokas, the mayor of Vilnius, Lithuania, for demonstrating that the problem of illegally parked luxury cars can be solved by running over them with a tank." <-- wha 05:10:52 another link: http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/09/2011-ig-nobel-awards-go-to-beetle-on-beer-bottle-sex-decision-making-while-needing-to-pee-others.ars 05:10:56 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners#2011 05:11:21 that particular one was suspected on reddit of being a stunt 05:11:45 oerjan: wouldn't just clamping them be saner 05:12:06 heh 05:15:25 "Perry postulates that, to be a high achiever, one must always work on something important, using it as a way to avoid something even more important. (Much as I am doing as I write this article; the bills that need to be paid can wait.)" 05:15:59 I paste that as I procrastinate both sleep and homework 05:17:54 bbl, university 05:19:06 * Sgeo|fsck_web goes to put his homeworking music on 05:34:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:50:51 http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html < Wow, now that I read the page behind it, it's actually quite interesting. 05:51:01 I vote we write an evolutionary algorithm. 05:54:23 TIL: YHWH literally demands the firstborn son of everyone. 05:54:28 But as a dispensation, he allows you to sacrifice a valuable animal in lieu of the son. 05:54:53 "The firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me." — God. 05:56:09 "Thou shalt not make up God quotes." - God. 05:56:34 (This is from Uncyclopedia) 05:56:39 My quote was Exodus 22:29. 05:57:44 I believe you. 05:58:07 God exists! http://god.rubyforge.org 06:00:23 * Madoka-Kaname instant gigglefest 06:11:49 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:15:49 -!- cheater has changed nick to {][3473|^. 06:23:53 -!- Sgeo|fsck_web has changed nick to AW346126. 06:24:19 * AW346126 vaguely hopes that {][3473|^ isn't a password 06:24:35 haha 06:24:46 <{][3473|^> oh shi- 06:25:30 * AW346126 is almost tempted to see if it's a nickserv pass 06:25:45 -!- AW346126 has changed nick to cheater. 06:25:53 -!- cheater has quit (Disconnected by services). 06:26:29 if it is, i hope you have already changed it 06:26:30 -!- Sgeo|web has joined. 06:26:32 <{][3473|^> :D 06:26:35 * Sgeo|web feels like an idiot 06:27:08 Aaaah, Nickserv. 06:27:34 <{][3473|^> anyone else want to try guessing the password?.. 06:28:05 I didn't even put it in yet 06:28:17 <{][3473|^> the protection is proactive 06:28:35 Um, I think everyone here knows how ghost works 06:28:59 <{][3473|^> the protection uses the time comonad to affect events in the past!!!! 06:29:24 <{][3473|^> :p 06:29:24 You can't just say "Hah, fooled you!" and move on with your life? 06:29:41 <{][3473|^> fooled you :p 06:29:55 <{][3473|^> but i thought it was obvious i'm only kidding :D 06:30:10 I'm a little tired right now 06:30:19 <{][3473|^> been up all night? 06:30:30 It's 2:30 AM, and I have homework to do, then have to wake up at 7 06:30:31 <{][3473|^> ah it's still night there 06:30:36 * {][3473|^ woke up at 5 though 06:30:51 <{][3473|^> i suggest skipping homework? 06:30:56 How about no 06:31:00 <{][3473|^> why is it more important than your health 06:31:06 coppro: have you seen latest Doctor Who? 06:31:12 Sgeo|web: yes 06:32:07 :D 06:32:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:50:49 if it's no longer enough to procrastinate stuff to tomorrow, apparently there's a word (perendinate) for delaying something until the day after tomorrow 06:51:27 it seems to have an alternate meaning of simply to procrastinate but for a longer time 06:53:18 <{][3473|^> o nice 06:53:27 <{][3473|^> perendinate, i like that 06:54:24 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:57:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 07:02:34 I made up some kind of Bingo game where you have some control over the balls. 07:04:59 <{][3473|^> how do you control them? 07:05:40 The balls are on a pinball table with holes and you can control them by nudging the table. 07:05:57 <{][3473|^> what if you used the normal bingo drum 07:06:05 <{][3473|^> but balls of different sizes or weights? 07:06:26 This game doesn't use the normal bingo drum. But I suppose you can make up that game too 07:06:54 <{][3473|^> it's much too direct with being able to nudge the table imo 07:11:24 Do you play any pinball game? 07:14:22 <{][3473|^> sure 07:14:23 <{][3473|^> why? 07:14:44 O, I just wanted to know. Which one? 07:14:59 <{][3473|^> last thing i played was epic pinball 07:15:36 Have you play any flipperless pinball games? 07:16:01 <{][3473|^> i'm not sure how you define that 07:16:05 <{][3473|^> hmm 07:16:07 <{][3473|^> yeah i have 07:16:11 <{][3473|^> actually 07:16:32 <{][3473|^> i remember they were somewhat tough to get the most desirable places 07:17:58 Which flipperless pinball games have you played? 07:20:50 <{][3473|^> toy games 07:20:58 <{][3473|^> smaller than a post card 07:21:22 I have played computer flipperless pinball game. 07:21:27 <{][3473|^> they consisted of a flat plastic surface and another flat acrylic plastic surface right in front of it 07:21:39 <{][3473|^> and had "holes" where the ball could go 07:21:48 <{][3473|^> they were more like platforms on which the ball would stop when falling down 07:22:18 <{][3473|^> you had like 5 balls, and each platform had a score 07:22:28 <{][3473|^> the idea was to maximize the score 07:22:39 <{][3473|^> the ball was tiny, maybe 2-3 mm across 07:22:39 I like the game JiggleBox and GooGooDaDa. In the game JiggleBox, there are bumpers and drop targets, as well as holes. Two holes are 50 points, two holes are 100 points, one hole is 0 points, and two holes immediately end the game. 07:22:52 Yes I have played those kind of games too. 07:24:04 <{][3473|^> having 5 balls prevents cheating 07:24:26 <{][3473|^> because if you try to nudge or bump the game then the balls that are in place already would fall out 07:26:27 I can understand that. But if the table is standing on the ground and there are holes, as well as a plunger, an otherwise game similar to that, is what is called a bagatelle pinball game. Nudging is permitted although you cannot pick up the table. 07:27:30 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 07:28:16 -!- calamari has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:34:41 have we figured out these algorithmic symphonies yet? 07:39:22 * Madoka-Kaname is writing a little evolver for them :V 07:43:17 How well do you know of music theory? 07:48:02 i mean these http://countercomplex.blogspot.com/2011/10/algorithmic-symphonies-from-one-line-of.html 07:55:29 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:59:27 I did once also think of a pool ball game where the mass of each ball corresponds to its number, such as the number 3 ball has 3x mass of the number 1 ball. 08:01:29 that would be entertaining 08:02:19 Should the rules for the 8 and 15 ball be swapped? 08:02:46 Also, what's the cue ball? 08:04:10 massless, obviously 08:09:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:09:36 I think people like the transitive property for equality too much 08:10:48 I like meat too much 08:12:10 I think if you get rid of it, you might not actually have problems with 0/0. Totally worth it. 08:13:13 Heh. 08:13:52 I should sleep 08:14:03 I have to wake up in ~3 hours for a long day of school 08:14:05 * Sgeo|web is a dolt 08:14:16 <{][3473|^> zzo38: my game had a plunger too 08:15:32 Is there a symbol for "contains the same information as expressed"? 08:15:42 ? 08:15:49 <{][3473|^> define that phrase 08:15:49 So that 5+5 =?= 5+5 but not =?= 10 08:15:58 umm 08:16:09 <{][3473|^> yes, it's called = 08:16:19 no he means 08:16:22 saying 10 is different from saying 5+5 08:16:33 <{][3473|^> on the level of symbolic computation theory 5+5 = 5+5 but 5+5 == 10 08:16:42 oh 08:16:48 horribly overloaded tho 08:16:49 <{][3473|^> the == is the congruence symbol with three lines 08:16:53 <{][3473|^> not really 08:16:59 <{][3473|^> you just need to study maths a bit 08:17:13 <{][3473|^> = means shitloads of different, often opposite, things 08:17:22 so you agree that it's horribly overloaded 08:17:26 <{][3473|^> no 08:17:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:17:32 <{][3473|^> i agree that it is normal 08:23:11 val e: Expr = t*5&(t>>7)|t*3&(t*4>>10) < yay for implicit conversions! 08:24:31 -!- ive has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:29:55 know what would be an interesting savant power? 08:30:02 being able to look at one of those lines of code and know what it'll sound like. 08:30:11 surely someone somewhere in the world can do this 08:30:43 Madoka-Kaname: how is it implicitly converted? 08:30:52 there are no conversions there 08:31:03 Scala stuff. 08:31:08 More like, "yay for operator overloading" 08:31:10 what 08:31:18 implicit def makeConstantValue(i: Int): Expr = ConstantValue(i) < this is mostly what I mean 08:31:33 i dont understand D: 08:31:34 but thats ok 08:32:36 {][3473|^: i think you might want to look at extensional vs. intensional equality 08:33:27 <{][3473|^> augur: extensionality is basic, so what? 08:33:33 no no 08:33:43 extensional vs intensional is exactly what you're talking about 08:33:49 <{][3473|^> i know 08:33:52 5+5 ~ 5+5, but 5+5 /~ 10 08:33:53 <{][3473|^> why would i look at it? 08:34:04 well 08:34:12 you asked what it was called... 08:34:16 <{][3473|^> i have? 08:34:19 no he didn't 08:34:21 sgeo did 08:34:26 oh sorry! 08:34:29 i misread the lines :D 08:34:32 Sgeo|web: ^^^ 08:34:33 <{][3473|^> beg for forgiveness 08:34:37 {][3473|^: make me 08:34:41 <{][3473|^> nah :p 08:34:53 <{][3473|^> ok fine 08:34:59 <{][3473|^> ./configure && make augur 08:35:05 D: 08:35:17 <{][3473|^> :D 08:35:17 sorry that doesnt work on me 08:35:21 <{][3473|^> hmm 08:35:28 <{][3473|^> python setup.py augur 08:35:31 nope! 08:35:41 <{][3473|^> debuild augur 08:35:41 <{][3473|^> there 08:35:43 <{][3473|^> that must work 08:35:51 nope! 08:36:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:36:34 g++ -O3 -Wall augur 08:36:52 nyet! 08:37:13 Patashu: "augur" has no extension there, so would be interpreted as a linker script, IIRC 08:37:18 you probably want a -x c++ in there somewhere 08:37:36 wow, I didn't know that 08:37:41 god this is irc you should be trying the obvious bash reference 08:38:01 you're right 08:38:01 bash.org is replete with irc memes appropriate for every situation 08:38:05 ./augur 08:38:09 -_- 08:38:20 you're horrible 08:38:41 Patashu, I have it set up to generate an image from each pattern, as described in that article. 08:38:52 madoka-kaname: you mean a waveform? or a spectrogram? 08:38:53 maybe try an xkcd meme! 08:39:07 oh, thanks for reminding me 08:39:09 *clicks xkcd.com* 08:39:14 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Dqm7wUdc_b4/TohqK5jRKJI/AAAAAAAAAH4/I6Uk8HH75q0/s320/tejeeztune.jpg 08:39:18 Like that. 08:39:19 ha ha, that classic black hat guy 08:39:21 Lots Of Laughs 08:39:34 huh. is that a spectrogram? 08:39:39 Patashu, no. 08:39:41 oh 08:39:42 I see what it is 08:39:51 It's the output data interpreted as brightness values. 08:39:54 it's intensity over time except wrapping to a square 08:40:08 that would be a useful tool to have on the site 08:40:12 <{][3473|^> нет 08:40:13 So, you should be able to look over it and rule out the most obviously not-going-to-work ones. 08:40:22 here's your music, also here's your timeline 08:40:39 hmm 08:40:43 dont forget smbc, satw, and hipster hitler! 08:40:51 is it going to know what width will make it line up as neat squares? 08:41:15 or will you tell it what width to use 08:41:52 Currently, it's hardcoded at 400x400 08:42:17 Which is the square root of 20*8000, i.e. 20 seconds of play 08:42:42 <{][3473|^> what are you making Madoka-Kaname 08:42:49 http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2386#comic 08:42:50 lol 08:42:51 you could rate the 'neatness' of a given width by going down columns and counting how many lines have low energy (deviate low amounts from pixel to pixel) 08:43:01 low energy indicates same intensity lines lining up of course 08:43:39 It uses 512*512 08:45:00 <{][3473|^> what are you making? 08:45:36 hey 08:45:36 Madoka-Kaname> It's the output data interpreted as brightness values. 08:45:37 thanks 08:46:15 <{][3473|^> output data of what 08:46:30 http://www.bemmu.com/music/index.html 08:46:33 <{][3473|^> i have seen that line, it did not answer my question, so i brought it up 08:46:51 <{][3473|^> looking 08:47:06 uMM 08:47:09 Umm* 08:47:12 What. 08:47:18 This image has yellow parts. 08:47:20 Time to debug. 08:47:24 lolll 08:49:15 Does anyone know of a cat to human translator? 08:49:16 <{][3473|^> that web page doesn't seem to work too well in firefox 08:49:18 My cat is meowing at me again 08:49:27 <{][3473|^> also, if you like this sort of stuff, i suggest you look into max msp 08:56:43 Patashu, think it'd be safe to reject a mutant if there's too much entropy? 08:57:07 Clarify? 08:57:22 If it looks like noise, reject it. 08:57:50 I don't know enough about how you're checking for noisiness to answer 08:58:10 I think most of the ones you'll want to reject are hyper-repetitive or a pure tone 09:00:39 idea for a test: zip it with your favourite compression algorithm. if it compresses below X kb reject it 09:00:49 and if it compresses above X kb reject it 09:01:24 Unrecognized extensions are treated as object files to be fed directly to the linker, not necessarily linker scripts. 09:01:52 In particular, foo.o will go through that rule. 09:03:41 Patashu, estimate the Kolmogorov complexity. 09:04:10 Phantom_Hoover: Is there a compression algorithm that does that? 09:04:26 I know normally they're optimized for certain kinds of files, like images/sound/text/log files 09:04:37 I suspect that the answer is either 'all of them' or 'none of them' depending on how you define it. 09:05:02 Depending on how you define "estimate", too. 09:05:21 That was what I meant by 'it', really. 09:05:30 I guess ANY compression scheme is Kolmogorov complexity, isn't it? Just with a different machine it's defined for 09:05:35 (correct me if I'm wrong) 09:05:36 Yes. 09:05:40 Ok 09:07:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:08:21 (((t * 5) & (t >> 7)) ^ ((t * 3) & ((t * 4) >> 12))) < Can somebody figure out a way to make this less... uh... 09:08:24 Grindy-sounding. 09:08:49 I keep forgetting what the link is. 09:08:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:09:23 http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/ 09:09:50 Can somebody modify this to generate the image version instead of the sound version? 09:09:55 Madoka-Kaname: (((t * 5) & (t >> 7)) ^ ((t * 3) & ((t * 4) >> 12))) & 127 09:10:00 I basically beheaded it but it sounds a bit nicer like this 09:10:06 =p 09:10:32 Does it have code to make the image version already? 09:10:40 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:10:45 Nope. 09:10:54 I have code, but it's in Scala, and no parser. 09:11:02 Rewrite it in javascript then 09:11:09 http://i54.tinypic.com/123oz9z.png < Can anything be done about that buildup? :I 09:11:27 lol, that looks cool 09:11:32 What buildup? 09:11:54 anyway 09:11:54 Look at the top half. 09:11:59 you should add some smaller periodic elements 09:12:00 to break the tones up 09:12:20 GAK 09:12:26 The yellow image parts strikes again. 09:12:55 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/kxqy4/brainfuk_turing_machine_javascript/ 09:12:57 Oh god. 09:18:59 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:19:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:19:50 (((t * 5) & (t >> 7)) | (12 & ((t * 4) >> 15))) < This seems to be the.. eh... 09:19:54 Basis of the thing? 09:20:48 Here's the quickest possible canvas-imagefication: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mimg/ 09:21:04 It's just fixed 256x256 block, and splunts them samples in. 09:21:36 Doesn't even alter the length of the generated sample to match w*h or anything. 09:22:54 canvas element in html5 right? 09:22:55 *checks8 09:23:54 -!- itidus20 has joined. 09:23:56 Also it seems to be on a gradient from white-to-half-gray-to-white instead of black-to-white, which is a bit weird; if I glanced at magic.js right, generateSound() results will be 0..65535. 09:24:19 yeah, it is. cool 09:24:44 fizzie: maybe the sample program never generates 65535 09:24:53 Yes, but I was testing with "t". 09:24:55 Which does. 09:25:14 hmm 09:25:24 so i was thinking. if you have a chess game with a piece which can make null moves. and your opponent has such a piece. i wonder if you can enter into a null-move break wherein the person who makes the next move is the first one to declare a move 09:25:25 * Patashu shrug 09:25:54 itidus20: normally if both players pass in a row the game ends. whatever the game happens to be 09:26:07 ahh 09:26:25 Oh, right, one of the samples is the alpha channel. Heh, stupidity. Fixed now. 09:26:32 and repeating an earlier stage is either stalemate or a loss depending on the game 09:26:48 Now it looks quite similar to that image that was posted. 09:26:48 i guess the chess laws would also say that is making the same move several times is not allowed after a certain number of times.. 09:26:54 (t * (t>>11)) < Basic melody element? 09:26:57 but it would make for an interesting variation i think 09:27:05 fide chess has zugzwang 09:27:19 oh wait 09:27:21 zugzwang is different 09:27:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang 09:29:40 i suppose formally each player, in a chess-variant game without zugzwang, would still have to declare "pass" or whatever.. 09:29:50 yep 09:29:59 but i like the idea of both passing resolving into a kind of gameshow buzzer situation 09:31:24 ok i think i get it 09:32:31 hmmmmm 09:32:51 hummm 09:33:25 an interesting chess variant would be a first turn pass option 09:33:43 why would you ever pass? 09:33:48 the first person has t he advantage in chess 09:33:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:34:04 (iirc, it's quantified as being worth a bit less than a pawn) 09:35:01 hmm.. i can see that when passing enters the game, it messes with the whole concept of first person 09:35:33 or does it??? 09:35:36 eargh 09:35:48 no no.. im just very confused.. :) 09:36:01 no 09:36:05 because passing is a move 09:36:08 and is recorded as your move 10:15:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 10:16:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:18:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:22:51 Incidentally, here's a cheating "oneliner" (if you can still count it that) to that music thing which comprises Klatt's old cascade formant synthesizer, slightly simplified (no aspiration in voicing, no nasalization) and with mostly random parameters; also it's with fixed parameter values so it's quite boring, but you could easily vary them: 10:22:53 128+600*r5(r4(r3(r2(r1(rg((t%40)==0?1:0)))))); }; var r1=r(710,50),r2=r(1100,70),r3=r(2450,110),r4=r(3300,250),r5=r(3750,200),rg=r(0,500); function r(F,BW) { var Z=8000,B=2*Math.exp(-3.14*BW/Z)*cos(2*3.14*F/Z),C=-Math.exp(-2*3.14*BW/Z),p1=0,p2=0; return function(x) { var p=(1-B-C)*x+B*p1+C*p2; p2=p1; p1=p; return p; }; 10:23:25 It cheats by defining a couple of closures with their own memory. 10:33:59 -!- {][3473|^ has changed nick to cheater. 10:35:11 Using javascript like a useful language is cheating? 10:35:39 that doesn't work for me 10:35:44 It is in this case; it's almost like code injection, since it normally does eval("var f = function (t) { return " + oneLiner + "}"); 10:35:44 it says unexpected number 10:35:54 Maybe I miscopypasted it. 10:36:25 Hrm. E_WORKSFORME in this FF3.6 workstation. 10:36:49 * Jafet read EWOKSFORME 10:37:00 Ewoks for everyone. 10:37:49 Patashu: the problem with that is no one will pass, because slightly over half of won games are won for white 10:38:10 jafet, context? 10:38:24 Oh sorry, you already said that to itidus 10:38:38 yes 10:38:56 itidus: a good zugzwang is very rare in chess 10:39:46 (Why is chess a favourite topic of #esoteric? ... oh, right.) 10:40:28 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:41:17 it is? 10:41:18 except in the endgame 10:41:20 it's mostly itidus who brings it up 10:41:26 where zugzwang is the only thing that wins several large classes of endings 10:41:58 e.g. in king and pawn vs. king, the player at the disadvantage could just put their king on the pawn's promotion square in order to force a draw if they were allowed to pass 10:42:13 king and pawn vs king is a win right? 10:42:44 i read that king and prawn 10:42:47 and started thinking 10:42:52 prawn is ALWAYS a win 10:42:54 ^.^ 10:43:03 "gee, what sort of ESOTERIC kind of chess are they inventing now" 10:43:28 there's a unit called a crab 10:43:35 it has half the movement of a knight; forward and wide or back and narrow 10:43:40 what does it count 10:43:45 oh 10:43:49 (as in, it has 4 out of 8 knight leaps available) 10:44:13 Patashu: king and pawn vs king depends on the position, but is a win more commonly than a draw IIRC 10:44:20 so right right forward and back back right but not fight forward forward or back right right? 10:44:26 yes 10:44:28 it scuttles forward 10:44:31 and scoots back 10:44:37 as opposed to a barc, which scoots forward and scuttles back 10:44:51 if both kings are in front of the pawn, and the king can't just capture the pawn, it's typically a win unless it's a rook pawn 10:44:53 interesting 10:44:58 what chess is this used in 10:45:11 one of ralph betza's variants 10:45:19 except if the lone king is in opposition 10:45:23 ais523: what is a rook pawn? 10:45:32 cheater: a pawn on a file on which a rook started 10:45:36 i.e. a or h file 10:45:38 ugh 10:45:42 chessvariants.com is down 10:45:51 likewise, knight pawn, bishop pawn, king pawn, queen pawn 10:45:53 http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22ralph+betza%22+crab&oq=%22ralph+betza%22+crab&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2645l3372l0l3447l7l4l0l0l0l0l346l346l3-1l1l0 10:46:13 rook pawns are the most common endgame special-cases as they can only be attacked/defended from one side 10:46:23 there's a variant of chess where rook pawns move rookishly, bishop pawns move bishopishly and so on 10:46:27 what is a good functional language with managed memory and strict eval? 10:46:29 Patashu: ouch! 10:46:41 is there an ML variant with managed memory? 10:46:49 cheater: "managed memory"? do you mean as in C++-style? 10:46:55 as in "no gc" 10:47:15 gc messes you up if you try to do realtime 10:47:17 functional languages tend not to work well un-GCed 10:47:18 even soft realtime 10:47:24 functional with managed memory just seems contradictory 10:47:33 i don't think it does 10:47:39 it's hard enough to work out where the deallocations should go, offhand 10:47:57 the thing is, conceptually a functional language always copies values 10:48:03 in which case you don't need a GC at all 10:48:15 but conceptually, because values are immutable, copying references to the values is more common 10:48:35 i wish it were possible to write haskell without gc 10:48:37 in pure functional languages, you can just use refcounting as a GC, if you wish (whether this is a good idea is another matter, but it's common) 10:49:37 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:49:49 the idea is that if you need to create an application that reacts in a certain time to prevent buffer underruns then you don't want to work with a gc'd language 10:54:09 well, even deterministic memory management can have large pauses when a destructor is called 10:54:26 ideally you want to use static allocation for hard-realtime, and that sort of doesn't mesh with functional programming 10:54:52 yes but those pauses can be reasoned about 10:54:55 hey, I think ICA is deterministic memory allocation and functional (all memory is allocated statically, so it disallows things like infinite recursion) 10:55:31 and you can perform such big deallocators in a coroutine instead 10:56:14 Sun has that Real-Time Java thing, based on thar RTSJ, but I don't think it's very alive. 10:56:23 maybe it's a better idea to write the core in C and run everything else in haskell or python or some stuff like that 11:21:16 -!- Mamadex has joined. 11:26:27 -!- Mamadex has quit (Excess Flood). 11:27:42 -!- Mamadex has joined. 11:28:06 -!- Mamadex has left. 11:58:25 -!- derdon has joined. 12:35:08 -!- boily has joined. 12:40:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:40:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 12:40:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:42:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:45:33 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 13:13:18 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:20:41 -!- sadhu has joined. 13:21:07 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 13:24:56 -!- Jafet has joined. 13:25:00 -!- Jafet has quit (Changing host). 13:25:00 -!- Jafet has joined. 13:32:12 hello 13:32:24 hi 13:32:29 `? welcome 13:32:33 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 13:33:08 ais523: :) 13:45:04 -!- sadhu has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:45:16 -!- sadhu has joined. 13:45:24 -!- sadhu has left. 13:46:33 [...] haskell or python or some stuff like that 13:46:34 ..... 13:46:51 there some many things that are different about Python and Haskell 13:47:02 that I'm having a hard time discerning what the similarities are supposed to be 13:48:17 there aren't many 13:48:28 they both use no braces 13:48:36 they're both highish-level languages (Haskell being higher), and that's, umm, about it 13:48:45 both have mpa 13:48:47 map 13:48:57 oh right, they can both use indentation meaningfully (although in Haskell you can use braces instead) 13:48:57 and list comprehensions :D 13:49:16 ais: in python you can do "from future import braces" 13:49:36 cheater: that's just trolling 13:49:42 clearly it was added to annoy Perl users 13:49:43 -!- derrik has joined. 13:49:56 BASIC uses linebreaks meaningfully 13:50:11 or does it? 13:50:26 ais523: what is trolling? 13:50:28 i guess not so much "meaningfully" 13:50:32 that the python added that? 13:50:33 itidus20: depends on the version, but most of the ones that take files as inputs use newline or colon as command separators 13:50:36 the python team 13:50:54 you can't actually add meaning to a basic program through newlines 13:51:20 quite a few old BASIC impls, their input wasn't really a text file 13:51:34 but a collection of numbered lines, with operations including inserting/deleting/replacing lines, and renumbering them 13:51:44 i am one of these bastards who likes BASIC 13:52:08 we should make a language called ADVANCED 13:52:22 it wouldn't be esoteric if it was based on BASIC 13:52:33 where everything is an object on a calabi-yau manifold 13:52:41 oh 13:52:42 and you type everything in ALL CAPS 13:52:43 maybe it would 13:52:54 and line numbers are cayley octaves 13:52:59 itidus20: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte 13:53:15 the similarity to BASIC is intentional, as it helps highlight the ridiculous portion of the language 13:53:27 what is the ridiculous portion of the language? 13:53:36 at least, IMO if you're going to do one thing weird and crazy, the rest of the language should be traditional and familiar in order to highlight it better 13:53:41 cheater: numbers can be assigned to 13:54:00 go read the page, there are better examples there than could easily be expressed over IRC 13:54:28 ok 13:54:34 OR 13:55:06 so i only recently learned that turing machines and lambda calc actually preceeded electronic computers 13:55:11 how about a language where values adhere to E_8 logic 13:56:50 i just naively assumed that imperative computation was the original 13:57:59 imperative is not natural at all 13:58:34 The most natural form of computation is proof 13:58:40 which computers are bad at expressing 13:58:43 not true 13:58:51 the most natural form of computation is selection 13:59:04 hmm... what have i started 14:00:05 << troll. 14:00:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo-RZ27o3Uw 14:03:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:06:38 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:11:55 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: kthxbye). 14:15:35 -!- sadhu has joined. 14:15:44 brainfucked! 14:19:08 sadhu: it happens. 14:19:59 CakeProphet: :P...brainfuck is really great! 14:21:39 I s'pose. 14:21:57 sadhu: are you new to esoteric programming languages? 14:22:03 or? 14:22:09 what's your background here. 14:22:53 CakeProphet: i am not new but i am also not very old 14:24:41 -!- sadhu has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:29:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:34:25 !c printf("%d",'h'); 14:34:34 oh, right, it must be 104 14:34:39 and EgoBot isn't here 14:36:25 and t is, umm, 116 14:53:56 -!- MDude has joined. 14:55:04 gah at anagolf using ints not chars for a BF tape 14:55:14 in particular, I can't clear cells reliably with [-] without knowing whether they're positive 14:55:38 why 14:56:40 because if they're negative it'll loop forever, or long enough that it'll timeout 15:03:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:03:50 * ais523 uses inelegant solution of >>>>>> rather than [-] 15:06:17 context is Anarchy Golf, btw 15:06:26 I just submitted the first BF solution to the ttp problem, it comes to 100 chars exactly 15:06:38 it's rather inelegant but quite short, and I can't think of an obvious way to beat it 15:07:14 heh, it even beats the best Java submission, although it's the second-most-verbose language 15:09:22 ais523: [>]? 15:09:49 it's >ing through zeros 15:10:10 oh 15:13:28 problem link? 15:14:04 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?ttp 15:14:13 basically, change "ttp" to "http" at the starts of lines 15:14:39 ah 15:14:55 the BF program I wrote is basically "at the start of a line, insert 'h' unless it starts with 'h'" 15:15:31 haha 15:15:38 no idea why nobody else submitted the m4 for that, it's beautifully simple 15:16:11 define(ttp,http)include(/dev/fd/0) 15:16:28 only works because there are no commas or quotes in the input (with commas in the input it becomes much, much harder, quotes can be worked around) 15:16:46 oh, or m4 reserved words either 15:18:09 that can also be worked around, by undefining/renaming them (only "include" would need renaming) 15:18:36 and I got a beautiful representation of 104 from the wiki 15:18:56 'twould be a lot shorter in a wrapping representation, though 15:23:41 -!- elliott has joined. 15:23:47 ais523: Considered self-modification? 15:23:48 elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 15:23:59 I got it working but it only did it for one line and then I pressed back and lost th ecode. 15:24:07 s/th e/the / 15:24:18 (Anagolf's BF interpreter provides the code at negative locations.) 15:24:28 pikhq_: Why not? 15:24:51 elliott: oh right, stack smashing 15:24:57 I don't cheat like that 15:24:59 ais523: it, err, isn't a bug 15:25:03 it's an intentional feature of the implementation 15:25:13 it's just that anagolf calls it "brainfuck" incorrectly 15:25:16 sure? the source code of the impl is linked, and it looks like a stack-smash to me 15:25:22 hmm 15:25:28 * elliott looks for it 15:25:36 but I was hardly paying attention 15:25:49 "I think we are using this C interpreter, but I'm not sure..." 15:25:52 very reassuring 15:26:24 ais523: hmm, if it works with this implementation, it's a stack smash, but I'm not sure it is this implementation 15:26:32 fair enough, neither is shinh 15:26:37 I think you would have to do < close to 32768 times to get to the program 15:26:42 given 15:26:43 int x[32768]; 15:26:43 int p[32768]; 15:26:51 which clearly isn't the case, or do people do [<]? 15:26:54 it does seem to go into an infinite loop with [-] on a negative number, so it's using an int-based (or maybe bignum) tape 15:26:54 hmm 15:27:05 probably not [<], probably an inverse that goes through zeroes 15:27:05 ais523: well, the actual code to the system is open source, so I might as well check 15:27:34 now to guess whether the directory is be/ or fe/... 15:27:48 ah, it's be/srv/s 15:27:55 thanks shinh, you golfed your filenames 15:28:11 exec /golf/local/bf $1 15:28:13 oh for goodness' sake 15:28:27 ok, it isn't that open :) 15:29:23 hmm, it would be fun to write a program to produce shorter constants than the ones on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants, for large numbers 15:29:27 or are they computer-generated already? 15:29:50 calamari seemed to write them then oerjan seems to have tweaked them a lot 15:38:26 "I think we are using this C interpreter, but I'm not sure..." <-- C interpreter? 15:39:29 Vorpal: Indeed, many lines don't make sense if you tape over the context on your monitor. 15:40:06 elliott: yes I'm doing a scientific study on the effects of context. 15:48:34 ais523: wow, that 104 on the esowiki is hard to understand 15:48:35 the 26 one 15:48:48 elliott: you're, umm, posting numbers, as digits 15:48:54 and I don't know what they mean 15:49:03 Forte reference? 15:49:06 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants#100_97 15:49:11 ah no, BF constants reference 15:49:18 you commented on it :P 15:49:30 * elliott tries to figure out which parts of it touch the target cell itself 15:55:11 -!- Ngevd has joined. 15:56:14 Hello! 16:03:03 -!- monqy has joined. 16:09:33 welcome Ngevdmonqy 16:09:48 e 16:12:43 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:14:25 -!- Ngevd has joined. 16:16:16 Hello! 16:18:02 "Hello!" --Ngevd 16:18:20 'Tis what I oft say 16:27:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:27:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:27:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 16:27:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:47:17 -!- sllide has joined. 16:48:49 I've had an idea 16:49:07 A programming language with two outputs: 16:49:47 Standard output, and another output which is lazily interpreted as the programming language 16:51:01 Thoughts? 16:51:26 Well, not lazily 16:51:34 Actually, the opposite of lazy 16:52:00 As soon as it has enough characters that can be interpreted the same regardless of subsequent characters, they are executed 16:52:47 unuusal 16:52:48 that sounds cool 16:52:50 unusual* 16:52:53 and cool yes 16:53:00 Ngevd: that /is/ lazy, sort of 16:53:04 Ngevd: is this recursive btw? 16:53:06 Ngevd: anyway, obviously you need some programming language to start it off 16:53:13 so you can start producing the programming language 16:53:14 Not recursive, I don't think 16:53:27 Ngevd: hmm... /me mentally fleshes this out 16:53:34 Unfortunately, the only way I can think of doing this is as... 16:53:37 Ngevd: the output which is interpreted as the programming language is the same language but without the output feature? 16:53:40 I'm not even going to mention it 16:53:45 Vorpal, yes 16:53:53 Ngevd: as what? 16:53:55 python? 16:53:56 php? 16:53:59 Worse 16:54:06 A brainfuck derivative 16:54:07 Ngevd: Cobol? 16:54:08 oh 16:54:11 ew 16:54:20 Ngevd: why 16:54:21 Someone else take my idea and run 16:54:33 I just can't think of anything else 16:54:37 Mind has gone blank 16:54:39 so any other language 16:54:50 befunge wouldn't really work 16:54:56 ok 16:54:57 Ngevd: glass? 16:55:01 taking it 16:55:05 because, why not 16:55:12 Don't know glass well enough to answer that 16:55:15 I don't know any glass derivative 16:55:17 is there any? 16:56:15 Ngevd: it is oop + postfix 16:56:23 very nice language 16:56:34 as an esolang that is 16:56:39 I'll add it to my list of ones to learn 16:56:54 I never actually coded in it 16:57:08 but I like it's ideas 16:57:25 glass is kind of boring 16:57:39 hm 16:57:49 Ngevd: malbolge derivative 16:57:53 because, hey, why not 16:59:12 elliott, did you say you were taking the idea and running with it? 16:59:19 yep 16:59:25 or at least thinking about running with it 17:00:24 Going to get some dinner now, bye 17:00:27 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:01:49 hmm... if a game with mostly constant background music goes silent (perhaps with environmental sounds still) it tends to mean boss fight coming up, almost always. No? 17:03:43 oh okay. Or rising lava level about to happen and THEN boss fight. Unpleasant things anyway. 17:05:02 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:05:59 It may also mean "background music engine glitched out". 17:06:22 fizzie: well yes. But it faded out in a very meaningful way :P 17:06:35 anyway, bbl 17:11:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:28:29 -!- Ngevd has joined. 17:28:32 Hello! 17:29:49 elliott, has your running with my idea gotten anywhere yet? 17:30:35 What idea? 17:30:57 I've had an idea 17:30:58 A programming language with two outputs: 17:30:58 Standard output, and another output which is lazily interpreted as the programming language 17:31:42 Well, not lazily 17:31:42 Actually, the opposite of lazy 17:31:42 As soon as it has enough characters that can be interpreted the same regardless of subsequent characters, they are executed 17:32:58 Ngevd: that /is/ lazy, sort of 17:33:51 Ngevd: I'm still thinking about it idly. 17:34:18 I wonder if it would be turing-complete without conditional loops? 17:38:00 Like, if it had a repeat n times loop and a repeat forever loop 17:38:50 Or possibly not even a repeat forever loop 17:41:42 -!- esowiki has joined. 17:43:48 -!- esowiki has joined. 17:43:59 -!- glogbot has joined. 17:48:33 -!- glogbot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:48:39 -!- esowiki has joined. 17:48:54 -!- glogbot has joined. 17:48:55 -!- glogbackup has left. 17:50:22 -!- MichaelBurge_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:51:35 -!- MichaelBurge has joined. 17:57:29 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 17:57:59 I've written up an idea for this language 17:58:43 I think I'll call it Brook 18:00:21 :'( 18:00:28 my idea: stolen back to its owner 18:00:43 monqy: What does one do when one has the urge to write a Haskell compiler? 18:00:43 Feel free to continue 18:00:52 Yours would probably be better 18:01:12 That is, the infinite list language, not the Haskell compiler 18:01:21 I really don't know about the Haskell compiler 18:01:50 hmm 18:03:38 -!- Geronim1 has joined. 18:04:29 Here's an idea 18:04:29 We both write a spec 18:04:29 And upload it at the same time 18:06:33 where are you from? 18:06:39 hi 18:07:01 `? welcome 18:07:03 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 18:07:08 I am from the REALM OF THE INTERNET 18:07:13 aka hexham 18:07:15 monqy: what's a good letter 18:07:32 WHERE THE BORDER PEOPLE CONFUSE WITH HELL 18:08:34 You? 18:08:39 i thought this channel is about magic or something 18:08:47 Geronim1: So does everyone. 18:08:51 I didn't 18:08:54 Geronim1: freenode is not really about that sort of stuff. 18:08:58 me is from good old germany 18:09:10 ok 18:09:18 But try ' 18:09:20 We don't really know where to send you guys. 18:09:21 #magic 18:09:22 i try java but i fail 18:09:29 * You have been kicked from #magic by ChanServ (Invite only channel) 18:09:30 rude 18:09:39 Geronim1: try haskell :-P 18:10:02 It's a pretty good language 18:10:07 Almost nothing like Java 18:11:15 i like sun computers because they are so stable 18:11:49 i think this is something you might find interressting 18:11:52 As in... you use Solaris? 18:12:02 yes and like it 18:12:16 I've never tried it 18:12:34 it looks like windows 18:12:42 Solaris just uses GNOME these days, man. 18:13:17 it has java desktop environment 18:13:26 and another 18:13:36 "java desktop system" is just codename for "GNOME with our programs". 18:13:37 but has although gnome 18:13:44 Seriously, it doesn't even use Java. 18:13:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSolaris_Desktop 18:13:54 ok 18:13:55 So do most OSs 18:13:55 Just not by default 18:13:55 No wait, I thought you said developement 18:13:55 Nevermind 18:14:01 Oh, it's not even called Java Desktop System nowadays... 18:14:20 Geronim1: heh, you must be using a version from 2005... 18:14:32 This channel destroys all who come to it 18:14:45 Verily. 18:14:47 what? 18:15:01 Hm? 18:15:04 It destroyed my concept of online anonymity 18:15:23 that is interressting 18:15:30 monqy won't even give me a letter. :'( 18:15:49 Since Phantom_Hoover figured out where I live and my full name on my first day here 18:16:12 It was your second or third; be fair. 18:17:17 To be fair, you did tell him it was in Northumberland. 18:17:27 back in 2h 18:17:29 That doesn't narrow it down much! 18:17:31 Phantom_Hoover: Gimme a letter. A good letter. 18:17:33 Well, it does 18:17:39 elliott, uppercase xi. 18:17:43 Ngevd: It does from "anywhere", which is what we would have with e.g. a cloak. 18:17:47 But I could be in Ashington! or Berwick! 18:17:47 Phantom_Hoover: An English letter. 18:17:57 elliott, hmm. Q. 18:18:00 Or even Lowgate! 18:18:07 Phantom_Hoover: You share my love of Q. :') 18:18:18 Phantom_Hoover: Sorry bro, QHC already exists. 18:18:20 Pick again. 18:18:33 L 18:18:42 LHC is taken. 18:18:55 By a pipe in France. 18:18:58 S 18:19:53 SHC is kinda ugly. 18:19:59 Z? 18:21:29 A little nicer, though still not very aesthetically pleasing. (ÆHC? :p) 18:22:12 If you're going to do that, make it XiHC. 18:22:24 oh my, I just watch a video of Skyrim. Those graphics look damn good. And of course the usual TES "That background is not just background actually". Still over a month left... 18:22:33 HC 18:22:52 Phantom_Hoover: But dude Ξ is only nice in serif. 18:23:26 elliott, FORCE IT TO BE SERIF 18:23:45 WHC? Nah. 18:24:14 THC? Tempting, but I think it's taken, and also the reason it's amusing is also the reason everyone will think I'm a pothead if I use it. 18:24:19 UHC? Taken. 18:24:31 If only C had a backwards version so I could have a symmetrical name. 18:24:48 Ɔ 18:25:03 ƆHC. Yeees. 18:25:07 Not quite symmetrical here. :p 18:25:20 almost here 18:25:22 It's rotationally symmetric. 18:25:27 could be perfect, hard to tell 18:25:35 Phantom_Hoover: I mean Ɔ isn't quite right here. 18:25:42 Presumably it's being substituted from another font. 18:25:55 It's not a backwards C, it's an open O 18:26:01 elliott: it looks great here. Could be one or two pixels off, presumably due to front smoothing 18:26:36 elliott: what is the thing you are naming? 18:27:04 ɁHC 18:27:31 ‽HC 18:27:40 Vorpal: I have this horrible temptation to write a Haskell compiler, so... 18:27:52 This can only end in tragedy. 18:28:12 elliott: ouch 18:28:19 ℌHC 18:28:25 Ngevd: But seriously, no Unicode. 18:28:26 HHIHC 18:28:37 [102581.454289] max memory size is 0x7fffffff (addr = 0xffff8802c8201000)!! 18:28:37 [102581.454295] emu: failure page = 32 18:28:40 whut 18:28:47 sound stopped working and I got that 18:29:06 Sounds like a driver problem. 18:29:30 elliott: yeah probably. It is emu10k1 though 18:29:46 reloading the module worked 18:29:48 GHC... oh wait. 18:29:59 elliott: EHC? 18:29:59 HC 18:30:08 Vorpal: That's, like, almost Elliottcraft. :p 18:30:34 GHC is the Glasgow Haskell Compiler 18:30:37 in fact i had some problems with that in recent kernels and/or after my mobo upgrade. Impossible to tell witch either. Can't downgrade, computer not supported pre 2.6.29 18:30:42 Call it the Hexham Haskell Compiler 18:30:49 elliott: it is elliott haskell compiler 18:30:58 Vorpal: Yees but I'm not sure I like it. 18:31:11 Ngevd: HHC is kind of ugly, don'tchathink? NHC would be nice but is taken. (i.e. Northumberland) 18:31:38 elliott: okay, it was just a suggestion. You are of course free to chose another name should you prefer to. However should you like it you can use it. 18:31:42 Pretend to be in Lowgate; LHC 18:32:16 SWHC 18:32:27 why .HC? 18:32:29 Vorpal: Poor imitation. 18:32:33 can't you go for a different form? 18:32:35 And because it's the Standard. 18:32:39 I might have it lowercase though. 18:32:42 Ngevd: LHC is taken. 18:32:44 elliott: yes I missed the grammar errors of zzo :P 18:32:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:33:01 Saint Wilfrid Haskell Compiler 18:33:10 After Hexham's founder 18:33:30 elliott: EHHC? For your initials 18:33:37 Ehh. 18:33:59 elliott: or why not ƆHC, sure it might not look good in all fonts, but you can make it look nice in the pre-rendered logo 18:34:07 Not a valid module name. 18:34:11 Well, to my knowledge. 18:34:14 oh right 18:34:22 What character sets are we limited to? 18:34:35 Also, I would like to point everyone to ISO 3001 18:34:36 elliott: write it in erlang, I'm pretty sure that is valid in an erlang atom. Though it might need quoting 18:34:52 oh seems like it isn't 18:34:55 :( 18:35:16 *3103 18:35:20 wait a second... 18:35:43 'µHC' valid, but 'ƆHC' is not? 18:36:08 ←HC is invalid too 18:36:08 so not just a paste issue 18:36:09 I said µHC was valid? 18:36:16 elliott: no I meant as erlang atoms 18:36:18 Ngevd: I'd prefer an English letter. 18:36:25 I do not understand how it work wrt unicode atm 18:36:27 Vorpal: Maybe Ɔ is capital. 18:36:35 In which case it might even be a valid Haskell module name but seriously no. 18:36:38 elliott: you can use that, I quoted it with '' after all 18:36:47 Ɔ is capital 18:36:55 wouldn't affect it since quoted 18:37:05 I think it could be related to pre-unicode erlang 18:37:20 still a few remaints of that in there 18:37:40 elliott: anyway do you realize how much work writing a haskell compiler is? 18:37:47 elliott: as in really? 18:38:28 ɔ is the lower case form 18:38:30 Vorpal: I estimate I know more than you about how much work it is. 18:38:41 elliott: right 18:38:53 And that's why it's a horrible urge, but really it's not /that/ hard. 18:39:40 elliott: sure, writing a fully conforming C++ implementation is probably more work. 18:39:48 you should do that next 18:40:01 elliott: even with that weird extern template thingy 18:41:01 eh wait, not what I meant 18:43:13 I wonder if I should try out Morrowind hm 18:48:27 EHH 18:48:51 lol 18:49:57 lol, bitbucket added Git support. 18:50:05 If github adds hg support, I think I'll switch. 18:51:19 Gregor: github advertises hg support, at least. 18:51:27 Gregor: They say that hg-git or whatever it is is good enough that it works seamlessly. 18:51:33 I don't know how true that is. 18:51:50 Quite true. 18:51:53 But that's not the same. 18:51:56 I want to punish git users. 18:52:01 (But seriously, does anyone actually think Bitbucket's interface is better than GitHub's?) 18:52:08 No, it sucks. github rules. 18:52:26 Not as good as scapegoat's distributed web interface system ;-) 18:52:36 "A big advantage for Bitbucket users is the ability to have unlimited private repositories for free. This means you can store every line of code you’ve ever written in one place without paying a cent." 18:52:45 Oh man, free unlimited hosting!!! 19:09:33 elliott: does github limit your repo count? 19:09:44 if so, how weird 19:09:59 -!- sdsdfsdf has joined. 19:10:01 or does private mean no one else can see it 19:10:30 elliott: I want svkgit just becase 19:11:17 elliott: does github limit your repo count? 19:11:22 Vorpal: It's based on total filesize or something. 19:11:26 You can't have a private repo unless you pay. 19:11:26 hm 19:11:30 ah 19:11:30 Hello sdsdfsdf. 19:11:46 elliott: but you can upload public code freely? 19:14:44 Yes, but then someone can SEE it. 19:15:06 what is a private repo? 19:15:26 `? welcome 19:15:28 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 19:15:36 Vorpal: No, GitHub is an exclusive pay-only club. 19:15:49 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:15:52 elliott: XD 19:16:24 I vaguely recall some place having a "only 20 free public repositories" rule, but I may have dreamed that. 19:16:34 heh 19:17:10 I thought github had unlimited space/repos/forks for open source stuff, because that fits with my vague idea of github being cool 19:17:23 20 repos is not such a draconian limit. 19:17:29 I think I've seen people with more. Maybe they paid but I doubt it. 19:17:42 20 is not bad; but I can't find out which place it was. 19:17:53 So maybe it was an old limitation in one of the places. 19:17:55 gitorius? 19:18:05 elliott: so's i don't have to dig through logs, what was this about: < elliott> calamari: lame, you can't compete with quintopia and me and Gregor's friend 19:18:26 elliott: Yes, I wish to know that too :P 19:19:09 huh, my pull request got merged, but github didn't seem to notify me in any way whatsoever 19:19:33 olsner: bitbucket has git support now! BAIL 19:19:34 quintopia: havenworks 19:19:46 Gregor: He'd have to use Bitbucket then. 19:19:53 lol 19:19:54 Ohhhhhh hahahah (re havenworks) 19:20:21 so calamari was websplatting and thought he could be a contender? 19:20:27 quintopia: No, his kids. 19:20:30 They're n000000000000bs. 19:20:38 I'm going to frag them with my leet websplat gun. 19:20:39 lol 19:20:44 muahahahahaha 19:20:55 aah, I have watched homebrew which gets me too much spam to see anything else in my news feed 19:20:56 Gregor: btw the "you're winner" tiling is broken 19:21:06 olsner: the homebrew guys are JERKS :''''( 19:21:36 but still, it would be cool to have something a *bit* more prominent than having to manually check the news feed for pull requests that I've created myself 19:21:52 because that's something I do about once per year otherwise 19:21:57 elliott: Err ... it's not tiled ... 19:22:52 Gregor: It's meatn to be. 19:22:54 meant 19:22:55 And it used to be. 19:22:57 elliott: I haven't dealt with them in person, so I wouldn't know 19:22:57 But now it isn't. 19:22:58 Tile it. 19:23:11 Errr, fairly certain it only was on a lark for like two minutes :P 19:23:20 Gregor: Well that's dumb? Fix it, make it tile 19:23:28 Nobody wants a win message in a corner 19:23:32 I want the world lit up with winning 19:23:54 elliott: I will whenif you implement ZALGO mode. 19:24:06 otoh, the ruby and NIH combo that homebrew is made of doesn't speak that well for the project as a whole ... its only feature is its bandwagon basically 19:24:07 olsner: I sent them a pull request to add MLton, they rejected it because they wanted me to make it compile from source (despite it being a bootstrapped compiler and so this being literally busywork), I told them that it'd be busywork, they said "SHRUG, this is how we roll"; a few months later they accepted someone else's formula for MLton which ALSO DIDN'T COMPILE IT, but had an additional bug mine didn't. 19:24:11 olsner: Therefore I hate them forever. 19:25:05 well fuck that. I just managed to mess up my postgre db on a update 19:25:18 *restores from backup* 19:26:16 the creation of homebrew: "lol macports, it's in TCL! I'll rewrite it from scratch in rooby and it'll be all better" 19:26:20 I think I just fixed a Pidgin (well, libpurple) bug. I suppose I should report that stuff. But maybe it'll wait until tomorrow. 19:26:46 > foldr (\(p:s) (f:fs) -> toLower p : ps ++ toUpper f : fs) "" ["Qwerty", "asdfQ"] 19:26:47 Not in scope: `ps' 19:26:50 > foldr (\(p:ps) (f:fs) -> toLower p : ps ++ toUpper f : fs) "" ["Qwerty", "asdfQ"] 19:26:51 "*Exception: :3:7-56: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda 19:26:55 :'( 19:27:19 olsner: Amusingly there was actually something resembling a desire to move MacPorts to Ruby back in the day. 19:27:19 -!- calamari has joined. 19:27:22 But seriously, MacPorts is terrible. 19:27:49 > foldr (\(p:ps) (f:fs) -> toLower p : ps ++ toUpper f : fs) "augh" ["Qwerty", "asdfQ"] 19:27:50 "qwertyAsdfQAugh" 19:28:53 -!- tiffany has joined. 19:28:56 I really don't get what was so bad about MacPorts 19:29:41 olsner: have you ever used it? 19:30:02 it's possibly the slowest thing ever, most of the ports were terrible, and variants rarely ever worked 19:30:33 re havenworks above. That page pretty much crashed my browser back then. 19:31:21 You had an awful computer. 19:33:22 elliott: yes 19:33:37 elliott: what do you do? 19:33:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:33:46 -!- sdsdfsdf has changed nick to sadhu. 19:33:53 sadhu: In what sense? 19:34:04 elliott, has your idle thinking got anywhere? 19:34:11 Ngevd: Only Vaguely. 19:34:13 s/V/v/ 19:35:06 elliott: are you a college student (becasue i am ;) 19:35:51 elliott: macports didn't seem to have much of a community fixing and updating ports, I'll give you that at least :) 19:36:00 I've probably just forgotten about the other problems it had 19:36:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:36:16 I RETURN 19:36:20 olsner: so what is a better alternative than macports for mac? 19:36:44 but afaict, they could've just put macports on github, added support for updating from git, renamed it to homebrew and called it a day 19:36:52 Pidgin source-browser tag list, first entry: "ZERO_DOT_FUCKING_SIXTY" 19:36:58 and skip all the rooby crap 19:37:03 sadhu: Nope. Too young for that shit. :p 19:37:15 olsner: That wouldn't solve the other issues I mentioned 19:37:15 so you go to school 19:37:16 ? 19:37:23 because i go there! 19:37:30 I'm actually a really advanced IRC bot. 19:37:32 Sorry to disappoint. 19:37:46 elliott: its nice to talk to you! 19:38:01 you are quite an intelli-bot 19:38:02 I am good at my job (being an IRC bot). 19:38:07 -!- tiffany352 has joined. 19:38:11 :-D 19:38:35 elliott, I think you have just completely turned the Turing test on its head 19:38:53 I hope it's OK with that. 19:39:07 elliott, what's your opinion on fellow bot tiffany352? 19:40:00 aren't we all bots? 19:40:04 Phantom_Hoover: Is tiffany = tiffany352? A question for our age. 19:40:10 I'm not 19:40:15 Ngevd: can you prove it? 19:40:31 Only if elliott isn't a bot 19:40:33 Which he is 19:40:35 I am certainly a bot. 19:40:37 -!- tiffany has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:40:37 Ngevd: so you can't then 19:40:43 So I cannot prove whether I am a bot or not 19:40:46 Phantom_Hoover: can you prove you aren't a human? 19:40:47 -!- tiffany352 has changed nick to tiffany. 19:40:47 fungot is the only human around here. 19:40:48 Phantom_Hoover: there! there it is! 19:40:59 Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah true 19:41:00 Vorpal, see, fungot can testify for me. 19:41:00 Phantom_Hoover: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that swor 19:41:03 omg 19:41:03 awesome 19:41:06 i love you fungot 19:41:06 elliott: these unique items make us invincible! as if the king indirectly killed her... such a rock wall, 3 times! 19:43:02 "We prefer patches generated using mtn diff --" gaaa, why does everyone have to use a different version control system? Why can't everyone just use scapeg^Wgit or something? 19:43:16 fizzie: wtf is mtn? 19:43:20 Vorpal: Monotone. 19:43:21 oh 19:43:32 fizzie: good luck with THAT 19:43:47 fizzie: what project is it? 19:43:49 Just had another idea for an esolang! 19:43:50 fizzie: Wow, Pidgin use Monotone? 19:43:53 Vorpal: Pidgin. 19:43:54 ah 19:44:00 fizzie: "We prefer patches that are the RightThingToDo." 19:44:03 Polysyndaton 19:44:07 fizzie: Is your change the rightthingtodo? 19:44:15 The hyperstructured programming language 19:44:27 Probably not, but I'll put it into a defect report, not a 'patch' ticket, so it doesn't have to be. 19:44:34 elliott: rightthingthatwillalreadyhavebeendone 19:44:38 fizzie: Heh. 19:44:55 fizzie: "or (if you're not using Monotone) diff -u" 19:44:57 They have a database snapshot dump you can wget because otherwise the initial Monotone fetch would take so long. 19:44:58 fizzie: See, it's not so bad. 19:45:06 Yes, I cut it for maximum efficiency. :p 19:45:16 fizzie: is monotone THAT bad? 19:45:24 wtf 19:45:27 -!- sadhu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:45:33 Vorpal: Pidgin is a pretty big/old project. 19:45:41 "Last Modified by rlaager, 4 years ago" --pidgin wiki page "How to Submit a Patch" 19:45:48 Vorpal: Slowness is also it's main feature, I believe. Though maybe it's not so bad; I haven't used it. 19:45:58 elliott: initial fetch by dump shouldn't be considerably faster than initial download by checkout. 19:46:03 IMO 19:46:10 Vorpal: Ah, you want a perfect compression system. 19:46:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:46:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 19:46:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:46:20 Vorpal: Sorry, but multiplication doesn't work that way, and rare is the project with only one revision. 19:46:22 elliott: no, I said "considerably" 19:46:42 elliott: besides, why would a dump of the entire history be faster to download than checking out said history 19:46:43 Vorpal: Multiplication is quite a quick-growing function. 19:46:47 it is the same fucking data 19:46:50 Vorpal: It isn't a dump of the entire history, you idiot. 19:46:57 Yes, it is. 19:46:58 It'll be some portion of it. 19:47:01 The dump contains all the old revisions, so it's as much data to move; it's just that "initial revision history retrieval is quite taxing on the server". 19:47:01 elliott: monotone use shallow checkouts? 19:47:09 heh 19:47:09 fizzie: Well... that's just stupid then. 19:47:28 fizzie: This is why VCSes should just use rsync. :p 19:47:49 elliott: you mean like cvsup for git 19:48:02 Vorpal: No, their "fetch" operations should literally just use rsync. 19:48:08 "mtn merge_into_dir is nearly useless for us, because of die-die-die merge semantics. For example, this is why libgnt cannot conveniently be maintained out-of-tree with an in-tree merge_into_dir copy" I don't even understand what they're talking about. 19:48:11 sg's will. 19:48:15 elliott: that requires reading locally all the history 19:48:20 which could be several GB 19:48:28 Vorpal: I'm pretty sure rsync is smart about that. 19:48:46 Hmm, I might use zsync instead, since it works over HTTP. 19:48:48 well yes it can use mtime, but then you don't want to bundle things up 19:48:58 Although I think zsync is one-file-only. :/ 19:49:00 Vorpal: What? 19:49:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:49:24 Vorpal: I am saying that "sg fetch" will just do "rsync -z --blah --blah remote-repo/+scapegoat +scapegoat". 19:49:25 elliott: as in you want to keep many files, not bundling things together in already existing files in the internal data format 19:49:33 otherwise rsync can't be smart 19:49:44 Vorpal: I'm pretty sure rsync hashes /portions/ of the file 19:50:06 elliott: yes but then it still needs to read those portions to check if the hash matches. Not everyone has a blazing fast SSD 19:50:32 elliott: with separate files it can be reduced to a simple mtime check on the files 19:51:00 hmm 19:51:05 Well, it'd work for git. 19:51:14 It'd also work for sg with only minor modifications. 19:51:16 I don't know git's internal data format 19:51:26 Vorpal: 19:51:28 elliott@katia:~/Code/mchost$ ls .git/objects 19:51:28 0a 20 26 2b 4f 55 69 6d 7a 7e 80 8f 92 ab b5 c7 dd f2 pack 19:51:28 0c 25 27 4c 51 58 6c 76 7b 7f 82 90 96 b0 be d2 de info 19:51:35 well okay, looks like it would work 19:51:37 Admittedly "pack" contains packed stuff. 19:51:44 which would mess this up yeah 19:52:37 elliott: i was gone away 19:52:46 elliott: anyway for a small project this is no major issue. But you want to keep reasonably sized files. Not too large, not too small, and not edit them once created if possible. 19:52:47 q is a good letter 19:53:03 Vorpal: Anyway, with sg the fetch process looks something like: Get every known object hash from server; remove all hashes in current repository; send the remaining hashes to the server; get a compressed scapegoat database back; decompress, merge into +scapegoat. 19:53:04 most letters are good 19:53:06 madmin + elliott 19:53:15 (Merge as in dbmerge, not as in merge merge.) 19:53:19 @admin + elliott 19:53:19 Not enough privileges 19:53:24 Hmph. 19:53:28 elliott: I have used rsync on huge sets of small files, usually means a lot of seeking. For large file on the other hand it needs to read the whole locally and remotely if any part of it changed 19:53:30 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:53:42 :-( 19:54:12 who is shachaf? 19:54:13 * shachaf sighs. 19:54:16 "Usage: sg group [[-c] command]" hey I must have scapegoat already installed, it's not saying "invalid command". 19:54:40 sg - execute command as different group ID 19:54:41 yeah 19:54:44 that would collide 19:55:01 part of shadow too 19:55:07 so yeah elliott will have to rename 19:55:28 should break the news to him once he reconnects 19:55:34 goatscape 19:55:42 the joke is that ghostscript 19:55:42 Yes, "gs" is much better. :p 19:55:47 fizzie: XD 19:56:08 monqy: why would you have to explain the joke? It was obvious 19:56:23 the joke was that i explained the joke :| 19:56:25 "scpgt", to name after bzr, mtn and such. 19:56:38 not funny 19:56:50 sorry i am bad at jokes 19:56:55 sgt? Might work 19:56:57 Not cool, not funny, not a good comic. 19:57:07 not found on ubuntu 19:57:08 No command 'sgt' found, did you mean: 19:57:08 Command 'skt' from package 'latex-sanskrit' (main) 19:57:09 Command 'mgt' from package 'mgt' (universe) 19:57:09 Command 'tgt' from package 'tcm' (universe) 19:57:09 Command 'stg' from package 'stgit' (universe) 19:57:09 Command 'st' from package 'swift' (universe) 19:57:11 Command 'st' from package 'suckless-tools' (universe) 19:57:12 fizzie: faster to type 19:57:13 Command 'sg' from package 'login' (main) 19:57:18 fizzie: I beat you to that 19:58:05 Yes, by an infinite margin; I wasn't going to suggest it at all. 19:58:59 "skt" seems to be some sort of "pre-processor for typesetting Sanskrit from both Devanagari and transliterated Roman scripts". Quite obscure. 20:00:21 -!- elliott has joined. 20:00:25 Lost connection. 20:00:31 Vorpal: We're well aware of the other sg tool. 20:01:21 Also, fizzie is apparently sje46. 20:02:25 Vorpal: Anyway, the solution wrt sg is to have Scapegoat act as sg with appropriate arguments. :p 20:02:27 elliott: so you need to rename it. Since you will collide on virtually every linux system 20:02:43 elliott: things like debian would rename it. Simple as that 20:02:46 There are ways to handle collisions that don't involve terrible command names. 20:02:56 elliott: sgt is okay 20:03:03 Yes, the "sergeant" tool. 20:03:12 ScapeGoaT 20:03:14 And your ridiculous "IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT YOU RENAME IT I GIVE YOU NO CHOICE" attitude to it is annoying. 20:03:30 We've already enumerated all the other command names in existence that have some of the letters from "scapegoat" in them. 20:03:44 pego 20:03:52 Yes. Pego. The best VCS. 20:04:00 scopegate. 20:04:17 I prefer Peggle 20:04:20 that's a VCS right 20:04:55 I was into PopCap before they were cool. 20:05:14 Debian would not only rename the binary, it would rename it in some horrible way; that's What They Do. Probably to "scapegoat_sg" or something. (I can't recall what they renamed, but it was something.) 20:05:28 fizzie: "ack" to "ack-grep". 20:05:31 So it'll become sg-git. 20:05:40 is there an ML variant with managed memory? <-- there is at least one iirc with something called region inference, but it doesn't work to replace all gc cases 20:06:51 fizzie: Anyway, the solution is to have sg print "Please add `alias sg=sg-git` to your shell profile." on startup whenever there's no such alias. :p 20:07:24 because sometimes a value's lifetime simply _is_ unpredicable 20:07:26 Oh, you're going to *ask*. How polite. 20:07:39 elliott, scapegoat! 20:07:49 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, how observant. 20:07:56 oerjan: interesting 20:08:01 Spacegoat. 20:09:16 and use of higher order functions easily makes tracing a value into a spaghetti affair, i think 20:09:26 elliott, so how is it getting on. 20:09:36 Phantom_Hoover: I've been too busy working on mchost. 20:09:48 But scapegoat will help the world! 20:10:01 So will mchost. :p 20:10:09 Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. 20:10:12 Not very much! 20:10:30 (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.) 20:10:46 Phantom_Hoover: You like pyralspite, don't you? 20:11:07 elliott, yes but scapegoat appeals to mankind's DEEPER NATURE 20:11:24 -- Phantom "What is a VCS how do they work" Hoover 20:12:12 elliott, it appeals to the ancient question of what a VCS is and how one works. 20:12:37 -!- kwertii has joined. 20:15:55 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:16:39 fizzie: well yes. But it faded out in a very meaningful way :P <-- "The sign flicked off again, in a way which Arthur was not at all certain he liked. It flicked off with a sort of contemptuous flourish. Arthur then tried to assure himself that this was just a ridiculous trick of his imagination. A neon sign is either on or off, depending on whether it has electricity running through it or not. There was no way, he told himself, that it could possibl 20:16:39 y effect the transition from one state to the other with a contemptuous flourish." 20:18:49 fizzie must have an alias to grep HtwoGtwo. 20:19:16 Maybe he has a FUSE filesystem at the end of his PATH that contains all possible file names as a shell script which greps HtwoGtwo for them. 20:19:19 (selves) 20:19:27 So he just types a query at the command-line in quotes and it's grepped for him. 20:19:28 Efficiency. 20:21:48 fizzie: thanks for the HHGT quote 20:21:57 HHGTG* 20:21:58 HHGT. 20:22:02 elliott: missed a key 20:22:13 Hitchhiker's Guide Tothegalaxy. 20:26:53 `addquote Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.) 20:26:55 699) Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.) 20:28:32 fizzie: Incidentally, an sg fetch should only require two round-trips. 20:28:34 Or three, not sure how you cound. 20:28:36 count. 20:28:42 Server to client, client to server, server to client. 20:29:09 You could cut that down to "client to server, server to client", but I suspect it'd be a loss in non-Mars situations, since download > upload usually. 20:29:36 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 20:33:05 how about a language where values adhere to E_8 logic <-- now i'm wondering if this logic is related to the lie group or not 20:33:26 given that you started with mentioning manifolds and stuff 20:34:26 Isn't E8 the one that ~surfer dude~ supposedly ~made the Unified Theory~ with for about three days before someone debunked it? 20:34:45 i think so 20:34:50 lol 20:35:14 of course cheater may have made up the logic version, at least i cannot find it :P 20:36:24 it wouldn't be immensely surprising if _someone_ had found a way to define a logic from a lie group, though 20:39:01 oerjan: btw name my function: f ellipsis n s = if length s > n then take (n - length ellipsis) s ++ ellipsis else s (except implemented much more efficiently) 20:39:27 ok i've tried e-8 + logic, modal logic, paraconsistent logic and topos and neither gave anything obvious 20:40:09 parse error on `more' 20:40:13 i mean 20:40:13 input 20:40:15 `more' 20:40:17 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: more': not found 20:40:22 monqy: monqy....... 20:40:24 shocking! 20:40:51 it's a 20:40:53 double joke 20:41:01 oerjan....... name........it...... 20:41:12 clearly any truly perfect language would allow "(except implemented much more efficiently)" as a pragma, though 20:41:37 why > n rather than >= n 20:42:02 oerjan: because if it fits into the length there's no need to ellipsise it? 20:42:09 hm 20:42:14 oerjan: it may be wrong anyway 20:42:16 like i said 20:42:19 not my real implementation 20:42:32 ellipsisise 20:42:37 that's a good name 20:42:38 er 20:42:43 i messed that up too 20:42:44 no 20:42:44 ;_; 20:42:52 ellipsise 20:42:52 besides it can take non-ellipses too in theory :P 20:42:53 good name 20:43:09 ellipse is a verb, of course. 20:43:15 yes but naming based on specific cases is great!!! 20:43:17 which fits perfectly here. 20:43:55 `wn ellipse 20:43:57 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wn: not found 20:44:04 http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3Aellipse#hl=en&q=ellipse&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=lx6KTr2vLcmZ8QO9l_RG&ved=0CDEQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d644b56267fbe23f&biw=1440&bih=764 20:44:06 i see no verb 20:44:16 THAT'S BECAUSE I MADE IT UP 20:44:27 ellipse(verb) "..." "really long thing gosh" 5 -- nice and small 20:44:30 you poor english who cannot make up new words at a whim 20:44:30 oerjan 20:44:33 you are bad 20:44:34 oh wait 20:44:35 i 20:44:41 was going to switch the 5 and long thing gosh 20:44:41 then 20:44:42 oerjan: how do you say ellipsis in norweigwegna 20:44:43 forgoot 20:44:50 i messed it up againnnnnnnnn 20:44:52 um 20:44:53 killing self 20:45:17 ellipse, usually 20:46:02 oerjan: :'( 20:46:26 * oerjan confirms with no.wikipedia.org that it's actually used for typography 20:47:30 Heh, the Magic Carpet game (like Descent, and quite a few other games) supported the Forte VFX-1 "virtual reality" helmet, and maybe some others too. It's like the future was already here (in all its headache-inducing flickery glory) in the mid-1990s, and then it just... went away. 20:48:09 `addquote [...] It's like the future was already here (in all its headache-inducing flickery glory) in the mid-1990s, and then it just... went away. 20:48:12 700) [...] It's like the future was already here (in all its headache-inducing flickery glory) in the mid-1990s, and then it just... went away. 20:49:29 http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/iis/vfx1.html <- just look at that thing, it's so sy-fy. 20:50:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:50:44 But is it as REAL as the Virtual Boy? 20:50:44 I still hold out hope for true VR one day. ONE DAY. 20:51:19 elliott: "procrustean", yw 20:51:19 oerjan: waht 20:51:19 your function name 20:51:55 the future has zeerusted 20:51:55 oerjan: So 'ellipsis' in Norwegian is called 'procrustean'? I didn't expect that! 20:51:55 oerjan: waht 20:51:55 `log zeerust 20:51:55 `log procrustean 20:52:36 -!- esowiki has joined. 20:52:36 -!- glogbot has joined. 20:52:54 With a stolen name. 20:52:58 http://www.mindflux.com.au/products/iis/cyber.html oh my 20:53:08 also, iirc from tvtropes, one of the "meaning of liff" words 20:53:18 YRC. "Gets its name and definition from The Meaning Of Liff by Douglas Adams and John Lloyd, a book of neologisms* concocted by the two." 20:53:31 YRC? 20:53:35 You Recall Correctly. 20:53:44 how yrcsome 20:53:51 What, would "YYD" have been more intuitive? 20:53:53 If there is contrafunctors, but is there such thing as contramonads? 20:53:55 monqy: is this site the slowest for you 20:53:57 ...no 20:54:08 zzo38: there are comonads 20:54:19 I know there are comonads, but are there contramonads? 20:54:28 oh hm 20:54:44 Like a monad and comonads are functors, so I mean contramonads, like monads by contrafunctors instead of functors 20:55:22 that's a bit weird, since the co- prefix on monad denodes a kind of dual, which the contra- prefix instead of co- on variant also does 20:55:26 I have here the Finnish translations (if you can call them that) of The Meaning of Liff, and The Deeper Meaning of Liff. It's all redone in Finnish place names and different meanings. 20:56:32 so what is zeerust in finnish, then 20:57:09 "Finnish place names and different meanings" 20:57:13 oerjan: Yes, but the dual is different. I read that, a dual of a functor is still a functor, but a contravariant functor is different (sometimes called a cofunctor, but it should be called contrafunctor). 20:57:15 essentially a different book :P 20:57:51 I don't recall offhand if it has a zeerust equivalent, but I could try to check. 20:58:15 augh, chrome's image of a reddit page in my most visited sites thing 20:58:19 has an orangered 20:58:44 -!- ive has joined. 20:58:54 zzo38: hm well a monad is also a functor, what if you require it to be a contravariant one instead, with maybe other adjustments 20:59:28 i don't know if it's a known term, though 20:59:46 isn't the functor part of a monad an endofunctor??? notE: i know nothing about category theory (but i want to know / how should i learn it /help) 21:00:02 monqy: yes, and so are all haskell Functors 21:00:03 oerjan: Yes that is what I am asking about. 21:00:11 oerjan: right 21:00:23 (capitalization intended) 21:00:29 right 21:00:40 I use the same caps stuff when I remember 21:00:52 so what does zzo want 21:02:43 oerjan: I can't find one from the concept index, but the concept index is rather arbitrary, so that's not saying much. 21:02:48 class Contrafunctor f where 21:02:48 contramap :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b 21:02:48 class (Contrafunctor f) => Contrapplicative f where 21:02:48 contrapure :: a -> f a 21:02:48 contraap :: f (b -> a) -> f a -> f b 21:03:00 class (Contrapplicative f) => Contramonad f where 21:03:00 cojoin :: f (f a) -> f a 21:03:06 s/cojoin/contrajoin/ 21:03:17 hmm 21:03:19 elliott: are those defined somewhere? 21:03:19 is that you made it up? 21:03:22 I also think I read, all Haskell Functors are strong functors as well. 21:03:23 oerjan: i made them up 21:03:27 apart from contrafunctor 21:03:29 which is relatively standard 21:03:41 ?t \m f -> ?cojoin (?contramap f m) 21:03:41 Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc topic-tail topic-tell type . ? @ ft v 21:03:45 elliott: Yes "contramap" is defined like that in some library I found. 21:03:53 kmetts contravariant package only has Contrafucntor (as Contravariant) and some other stuff.... 21:03:59 contraap is a cute idea 21:04:01 :t \m f -> (?cojoin :: f (f a) -> f a) ((?contramap :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b) f m) 21:04:02 Could not deduce (?cojoin::f (f a) -> f a) from the context () 21:04:02 arising from a use of implicit parameter `?cojoin' 21:04:02 at :1:9-15 21:04:06 what 21:04:13 oerjan: hepl 21:04:19 cojoin? duplicate? 21:04:26 :t \m f -> (undefined :: f (f a) -> f a) ((undefined :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b) f m) 21:04:26 forall (f :: * -> *) a a1. f a1 -> (f a -> a1) -> f a 21:04:34 so I suspected 21:04:37 monqy: For comonads it is duplicate 21:04:41 monqy: contrajoin 21:04:42 it was a typo 21:04:46 oh contrajoin 21:04:56 huh 21:05:00 that's quite surprising actually, that result 21:05:06 why isn't the result in f too 21:05:15 :t \m f -> ((undefined :: (b -> a) -> f a -> f b) f m) 21:05:15 forall b a (f :: * -> *). f a -> (b -> a) -> f b 21:05:20 o_O 21:05:57 * elliott puts this in a file 21:06:07 o.O 21:06:09 wat 21:06:28 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:06:30 contramonad makes no sense 21:06:58 @hackage contravariant 21:06:58 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/contravariant 21:07:11 copumpkin: well, zzo38 asked :) 21:07:31 a contravariant functor is a functor involving opposite categories 21:07:38 a monad is an endofunctor 21:07:43 so no opposites in sight! 21:07:47 copumpkin: Shhhhhhhh, zzo38 asked, it must happen 21:07:50 oh ok 21:07:58 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 21:08:01 * elliott tries going straight from Contrafunctor to Contramonad with no applicative in between 21:08:27 contrabind :: m a -> (m b -> m a) -> m b 21:08:28 yesssssssssss 21:08:43 m a -> (b -> m a) -> m b, maybe? 21:08:50 but that makes no sense :P 21:09:01 contrabind is weird 21:09:03 also, you could do it on the generalized monads thing 21:09:13 generalize d moands thinge? 21:09:14 copumpkin: oh right duh 21:09:20 I don't know why I wanted m in both places :P 21:09:32 copumpkin: but elliott has practically defined already! 21:09:34 http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/AssistedMonads2.pdf 21:09:38 *defined it 21:09:41 lol 21:09:53 copumpkin: O, yes, you are correct but there might be possible to do with defining the correct operations, if it can be done. 21:09:53 shouldn't it be m a -> (m b -> a) -> m b? 21:10:01 olsner: no, m a -> (b -> m a) -> m b 21:10:03 zzo38: what would it be? 21:10:17 oerjan: hm can we define contraap with that contrabind? 21:10:18 copumpkin: I don't know, which is why I asked. 21:10:22 elliott: i think your m a -> (m b -> a) -> m b was fairly logical, really 21:10:26 look at those relative monads I mentioned 21:10:34 they're sort of a "monad-like thing" that works for non-endofunctors 21:10:41 and a contravariant functor is a non-endofunctor 21:10:42 oerjan: yes it makes more sense than this :P 21:10:53 so you might be able to apply those to give you something resembling what you want 21:11:03 data F a b = F { unF :: b -> a } 21:11:04 instance Contrafunctor ((->) a) where 21:11:04 contramap f (F g) = F (f . g) 21:11:05 there was an earlier paper that didn't use agda 21:11:06 huh, why doesn't that work... 21:11:19 elliott: you want F 21:11:22 not ((->) a) 21:11:24 copumpkin: oh 21:11:27 copumpkin: im smart 21:11:30 * copumpkin smacks elliott 21:11:31 <-- smart 21:11:33 elliott: what was comonad cobind again 21:11:45 oerjan: w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b I think 21:12:00 extend has the arguments flipped but yes 21:12:06 contrapure :: a -> F b a === a -> (a -> b) 21:12:07 ah. 21:12:22 soooooooo 21:12:24 contrapunctus 21:12:28 someone suggest another type to become a contramonad :P 21:12:30 elliott: ok, in that case i suspect that one of m a -> (b -> m a) -> m b and m a -> (m b -> a) -> m b is a contramonad, and the other is a contra_co_monad 21:12:38 contracomonad...... 21:12:57 http://i.imgur.com/QbPdR.jpg Is that really the example you want to go with? 21:12:58 no but seriously someone suggest another possible contramonad :P 21:13:03 Really, Japan? 21:13:04 Yes I did think of contracomonad too. 21:13:27 oerjan: hmm is contrapure right 21:13:38 pikhq_: japan 21:14:02 oerjan: Ooh, zeerust *is* in the second book. It's "fuurtti" in Finnish. And that place is *really* obscure, it's not even known by Google Maps, and about the only hits are a weather forecast there, and some sort of a "nature-related locations" zoning map for the nearby muncipality (of less than 2000 inhabitants); it's here, anyway: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=61.514509,26.298437&spn=0.039912,0.082226&z=14 21:14:41 And yes, the definitions given are entirely accurate. 21:15:15 oerjan: insufficient lack of suggestions for other possible contramonads :P 21:15:19 erm 21:15:26 -!- Ngevd has joined. 21:15:27 s/insufficient/oversufficient/ 21:15:58 oerjan: hmm, is (Kleisli a) a monad? 21:16:06 maybe (Contrakleisli a) is a contramonad 21:17:01 i have no idea any more :P 21:17:31 `run echo fuurtti | tr a-z n-za-m 21:17:33 shheggv 21:17:42 hmm... 21:17:48 `run echo zeerust | tr a-z n-za-m 21:17:50 mrrehfg 21:17:58 good words 21:18:02 (b -> a) -> (m r -> a) -> (m r -> b) 21:18:02 furrfu 21:18:22 hepl 21:18:34 oerjan: hepl 21:18:38 (given (Contramonad m)) 21:19:23 elliott, given any more idle thought returning fruitfulness? 21:19:39 Ngevd: i suspect it is a trivial modification of feather in some ways :P 21:19:53 did someone say feather 21:20:05 idea: time-reversed feather 21:20:26 In Brook, as I call it, a self-interpreter is AS EASY AS A CAT PROGRAM 21:21:01 does brook exist 21:21:15 Only in an unsaved text file on my laptop 21:21:17 And in my mind 21:21:38 And in elliott's mind, but in a significantly different form 21:21:41 Possibly with a different name 21:22:27 And I will go to bed now 21:22:29 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:24:26 Functor has (a -> b) -> f a -> f b what is (f a -> f b) -> a -> b ? Is there even such things? 21:28:37 -!- esowiki has joined. 21:28:39 -!- glogbot has joined. 21:28:39 -!- glogbackup has left. 21:28:55 oerjan: is zhc untaken 21:28:56 z is good if you cross it 21:29:08 elliott: how should i know 21:29:11 boring otherwise 21:29:17 oerjan: u r haskel elda 21:29:22 ZHC is a test held by the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security of the People's Republic of China to test the Mandarin Chinese ability of Chinese citizens. 21:29:40 ah 21:30:11 well then you cannot use it. clearly 21:30:13 . 21:30:51 oerjan: lets try...atnother letter 21:30:56 m 21:31:11 MHC....im dont like it 21:31:19 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:32:44 im thinking qhc at this point 21:34:56 oerjan: do you approve of...qhc..... 21:35:12 What are you trying to do? Invent a Haskell compiler? 21:36:08 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 21:36:12 m,....aybe... 21:36:16 i dont think it will have mor enotation 21:36:44 What will it have? Macros? 21:38:08 m..aybe.... 21:38:09 It should have macros that can be used to make up do-notation, list notation, Num class literals, these like Haskell already has; and more-notation as well. 21:38:28 i think i will start with haskell 2010... and go from there..... 21:39:00 Which means that do notation and list notation would be Prelude macros. 21:39:51 * You have been kicked from #magic by ChanServ (Invite only channel) <-- well if it was real, you'd have been turned into a newt. hm, maybe you should check that. 21:39:52 And have "deriving" actually being Template Haskell, where the standard deriving stuff is defined in Prelude. 21:40:01 oerjan: i have always been a newt............. 21:40:04 people really don't like template haskell 21:40:10 I doubt they'll want to increase its scope 21:40:22 I dunno, deriving by TH seems sane to me 21:40:24 but yeah, I don't like TH :( 21:40:26 copumpkin: Why? I think Template Haskell is OK. 21:40:27 I wish I could avoid it in my code 21:40:37 but I can't figure out how to excise it from mchost 21:41:22 Of course if it can be deriving by TH but they are defined in the Prelude, your program doesn't need TH, if the Prelude has TH that is enough to use the deriving mechanism. 21:41:56 zzo38: SPJ's (and many others) main issues with it are outlined at http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/Template%20Haskell%20Proposal 21:44:23 copumpkin: oh man, i could replace TH in my current project with cpp x-macros 21:44:26 SHOULD I DO IT????????? 21:45:09 of course 21:45:46 I think C preprocessor is no good for Haskell 21:46:08 A little nicer, though still not very aesthetically pleasing. (ÆHC? :p) <-- i've always felt Æ is the least esthetic norwegian letter 21:46:22 *+a 21:46:26 oerjan: "esthetic" is an abominable spelling imho. :( 21:46:29 oh it's not invalid 21:46:33 it's the common american spelling 21:46:36 i just don't like it 21:46:49 no:estetisk >:) 21:46:59 Well that's a hideous word :P 21:47:39 I do agree with some of the things in Template Haskell Proposal. 21:48:13 But I also want to add a macro system that is run in the parser. 21:48:52 As well as in the lexer. 21:48:54 "esthetic" is the common american spelling? 21:48:59 I've only ever seen aesthetic 21:49:38 well american tendency is ae → e 21:49:48 it may be true that the kind of people who use the word "aesthetic" tend to be the kind of people who use "ae", though 21:50:06 (I've seen aesthetic more often too) 21:50:29 But I agree that [| "hello" && True |] ought to be acceptable (even though $([| "hello" && True |]) should still be error) 21:59:37 -!- esowiki has joined. 22:01:04 -!- esowiki has 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