< 1318377700 827327 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://homestuck.com/ < 1318377702 535954 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :good website < 1318377730 276904 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I missed a lot of the banners. < 1318377781 96080 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :missed? as in you couldn't get micro-gregor to jump that high < 1318377782 409835 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318378092 923205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, websplat all day every day < 1318378135 654637 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: are you working on a websplatting AI? < 1318378175 135049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally < 1318378233 14410 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome. it would be the best thing ever made since... < 1318378237 295457 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, since websplat i suppose < 1318381679 863945 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8BB16.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318381723 597322 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I tried to pickpocket by putting something into someone's pocket. I think it was a note. < 1318381732 238016 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it was a key, or some money. < 1318381737 582736 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not remember. < 1318381976 440074 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318381989 549192 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: is my explanation of magic quotes at least half decent? < 1318381993 382855 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1318382154 862357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No you are full of lies. < 1318382159 628480 :SimonRC!~sc@217.155.91.250 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318382257 249448 :SimonRC!~sc@217.155.91.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318382596 212810 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pwd \ /home/gregor/browsers \ $ du -hs . \ 1.7G . < 1318382720 831695 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the reason I asked pikhq is because he can see my Facebook stuff < 1318382724 597417 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot. < 1318382741 639263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can I? < 1318382743 783117 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, not that particular status < 1318382751 551681 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, you shouldn't be able to < 1318383490 818059 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How good are you at tetris while blindfolded? < 1318384136 739289 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Avoid using native code (i.e. C/C++) if at all possible in situations where one needs to make security guarantees; instead opt to use a Very High Level Language by default. < 1318384150 696841 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, EFF? There are high-level languages that might qualify as native code < 1318384171 245530 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.eff.org/2011/october/guidelines-open-source-security-audits < 1318384189 123374 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do security in C, you just need to be careful. < 1318384804 802974 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318384854 799576 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318385106 756502 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Oh, so that's where it is. < 1318385168 104603 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus, PHP *does* that? < 1318385337 552159 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with magic quotes enabled < 1318385353 165832 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://php.net/manual/en/security.magicquotes.php < 1318385434 843160 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest, don't use magic quotes mode. < 1318385454 685646 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I suggest, magic quotes must DIE < 1318385471 237471 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They must die a horrible and painful death < 1318385688 39729 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1318385707 991252 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, presumably it slaps \ in front of \ too < 1318385720 904719 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^not helpful < 1318385826 241600 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the sort of thing that, if it existed in a language like Falcon, we'd point and laugh and move on with our lives < 1318385841 976923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do. < 1318385845 771587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't < 1318385897 420175 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bluh? < 1318385924 977622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do point and laugh and move on with our lives < 1318385936 62686 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :who gives a shit about magic_quotes < 1318386015 57021 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :People in a web development class where the professor's server has magic quotes enabled? < 1318386061 186969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i told you to transfer, i forget entirely. < 1318386536 835229 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1318386596 296793 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :my little php: quoting is magic < 1318386809 178933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1318387038 883868 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-153-125.mpls.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a "very high level language" anyway < 1318387100 13213 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-153-125.mpls.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess they probably mean Python or something, but you can still write insecure code in it! < 1318387187 286481 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's less tricky to write secure code in a very high level language, I think < 1318387753 892907 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like the difference between trying to secure a truecrypt volume and a truecrypt hidden volume < 1318387762 37340 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can fuck up both but hidden volumes give you 1000% more ways to fuck it up < 1318387796 362867 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, uh oh, don't use any program that writes to the non hidden portion! or, uh oh, make sure you can account for time you're spending on the hidden and non hidden oses when they review log files on it! < 1318387945 154767 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to how to fuck up a truecrypt volume: you already have, by Patashu's standards < 1318387956 716924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lol @ anyone who uses truecrypt < 1318387990 659159 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure why lol @ truecrypt, but I see elliott's point re. fucking up a truecrypt volume < 1318388003 937645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :truecrypt is really shady < 1318388035 167304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :open source only in unreviewed source dumps every major release < 1318388048 553396 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :forum mods ban criticisers relentlessly < 1318388079 143050 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :truecrypt is good for securing < 1318388079 460401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :trust truecrypt = you're either unaware or an idiot < 1318388082 683614 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for plausible deniability so much < 1318388084 68187 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This isn't a logic error. The idea is to prevent a user-triggered information leak by not showing this error to the user in case a production server is misconfigured and running with display_errors turned on. < 1318388095 296343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: no < 1318388098 438755 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47494 < 1318388099 816329 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Unreviewed source dumps every *major* release? < 1318388099 963050 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, the fbi SAID they couldn't crack truecrypt just to keep people using truecrypt: < 1318388100 767453 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :tinfoil: < 1318388104 922089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is good for nothing < 1318388112 555400 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet... They do minor releases... < 1318388129 446307 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Operation Satyagraha < 1318388129 775074 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :In July 2008, several TrueCrypt-secured hard drives were seized from a Brazilian banker Daniel Dantas, who was suspected of financial crimes. The Brazilian National Institute of Criminology (INC) tried unsuccessfully for five months to obtain access to TrueCrypt-protected disks owned by the banker, after which they enlisted the help of the FBI. The FBI used dictionary attacks against Dantas' < 1318388129 939570 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :disks for over 12 months, but were still unable to decrypt them.[34] < 1318388139 694286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: ok, every release < 1318388140 25446 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is the fbi stupid or acting stupid? < 1318388142 199081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no repo < 1318388143 225384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1318388168 711974 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem isn't whether gov't has access, but whether the truecrypt devs might have access < 1318388169 740267 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also only make unmodified distributions. < 1318388171 683023 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1318388184 29098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: ah yes < 1318388185 167192 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1318388186 682653 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, the truecrypt devs will arrest me < 1318388206 560947 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Iff the source corresponds to extant binaries, then it should at least *hypothetically* be possible to discover such things. < 1318388228 411290 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for the minor releases if what elliott says is true < 1318388246 156157 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a reason I specified "iff the source corresponds to extant binaries". < 1318388258 114375 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, this is only slightly less shady than pure uninspectable proprietary software. < 1318388272 13139 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :open source = shady? < 1318388313 340255 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: It's non-free shit that happens to do source code dumps. < 1318388335 545801 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not free but it's open source? ?_? < 1318388343 377624 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor is it OSI-compliant. < 1318388347 938632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: it is not open sourec < 1318388348 692106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ce < 1318388351 235497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is viewed source only < 1318388360 410370 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrmm < 1318388361 780681 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They dump source publically on releases. < 1318388372 161365 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :could I make a truecrypt fork with the source? < 1318388376 308380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1318388379 711848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not distributing it at least < 1318388381 190152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1318388382 701568 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would happen if- oh? < 1318388383 523777 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1318388387 647103 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : In July 2008, several TrueCrypt-secured hard drives were seized from a Brazilian banker Daniel Dantas, who was suspected of financial crimes. The Brazilian National Institute of Criminology (INC) tried unsuccessfully for five months to obtain access to TrueCrypt-protected disks owned by the banker, after which they enlisted the help of the FBI. The FBI used dictionary attacks against Dantas' < 1318388388 970995 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird that such a thing even exists < 1318388389 636518 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : disks for over 12 months, but were still unable to decrypt them.[34] < 1318388402 165791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: if you think that the only standard of trust is "can be broken now" rather than "is trustable" < 1318388406 360376 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what to say to you < 1318388407 871551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is not < 1318388410 580126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can the fbi break into truecrypt < 1318388412 811556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is < 1318388416 376986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone put a backdoor in truecrypt < 1318388420 446488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the fuck would you know> < 1318388423 902140 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :by viewing the source? < 1318388431 623489 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this some kind of magical backdoor that doesn't appear in the source code < 1318388439 706257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahaha < 1318388440 726725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: so < 1318388447 56063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have read the source to truecrypt right? < 1318388452 966133 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1318388454 845534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are an expert in cryptography? < 1318388457 144610 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1318388466 659350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, oh, are VERY good at finding exploits? if you think this is easy < 1318388472 658501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then read the winners of the underhanded c contest < 1318388477 346367 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I have < 1318388478 762981 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's p. crazy < 1318388480 662833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that doesn't even have real stakes! < 1318388495 340695 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use truecrypt, you have already lost, nobody to my knowledge reviews the source, the end < 1318388502 939238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly < 1318388515 892840 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TrueCrypt does not meet even *basic* levels of trustworthiness. < 1318388522 341536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you would seriously be surprised by the fbi lying about being able to break truecrypt I also don't know what to say to you; that's not conspiracy shit < 1318388531 244509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's "you don't give up a huge tactical advantage in public" shit < 1318388551 644209 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'm saying they lied -- it's quite irrelevant < 1318388559 721035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you would be seriously surprised to find out they did... ehh, that's just naivety < 1318388573 990331 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yes "major release" was a mistake < 1318388617 246482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: btw if you consider something like dm-crypt, that's built on top of the Linux kernel's cryptographic APIs which will have a huge number of eyes on them, especially considering how much corporate reliance on linux there is -- and by all the distro devs, etc. etc. < 1318388620 596976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's properly open source < 1318388628 100975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no shady forum mods to ban people who criticise their policies < 1318388645 617661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is developed in the open -- mailing lists and so on < 1318388664 346953 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux in particular seems almost designed to *maximize* the number of eyes on it. < 1318388669 41592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it's a completely different world to truecrypt, which is completely untrustable. < 1318388747 315189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: besides, I think even Windows comes with full-HD encryption support these days. < 1318388752 322990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means every major OS does. < 1318388799 227333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: oh and, I bet 90 percent of truecrypt users use the binarise < 1318388800 546571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :binaries < 1318388810 185801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: what's to stop them publishing an inaccurate source tarball? < 1318388814 614526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and exploiting only the binary < 1318388825 165584 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well over 90 percent of Linux users use the binaries :) < 1318388835 467514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yep, but with debian the process is very automated and open < 1318388839 172906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: for instance < 1318388862 606890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be much much harder to get debian ship a binary that doesn't correspond to the source :) < 1318388873 99606 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time the distro's processes are pretty open. < 1318388911 899429 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Users can insert associative arrays in GET requests, which could then become unwanted $-queries." < 1318388915 872109 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1318388931 574512 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even when it's not they'd probably have trouble getting away with that. For instance, I highly doubt RHEL could get away with shipping even a single binary mismatching source. < 1318388971 498268 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: register_globals < 1318388998 808744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: ?x=y --> $x == "y" < 1318389072 963514 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, the underhanded C entries are clever < 1318389113 664462 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sheer genius. < 1318389128 65648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: ?admin=yes < 1318389146 148768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if register_globals and magic_quotes have ever worked together to prevent a security hole < 1318389147 763133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1318389149 947926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone did < 1318389158 124648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ($token == "'") { ... } < 1318389159 728280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and someone did < 1318389161 72923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?token=' < 1318389161 400799 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1318389166 711206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but $token became "\\'" < 1318389170 666253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to magic_quotes < 1318389173 646795 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so the application was saved < 1318389240 758501 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, this is something different. Although I guess less terrible < 1318389245 804736 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.php.net/manual/en/mongo.security.php < 1318389249 21412 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But just... still weird < 1318389284 462219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1318389290 402756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fairly understandable really < 1318389298 753427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although nobody should use such complex get queries probably :-) < 1318389338 598109 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and so it should not do such complex parsing) < 1318389468 689028 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm addicted to a small subreddit < 1318389473 736586 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/r/lolphp < 1318390109 38025 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the equiv. of such oddities in other languages like Ruby would be more found in the frameworks < 1318390122 435056 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So RoR might have odd issues like that while SInatra doesn't, or visa versa < 1318390126 528989 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sinatra < 1318390611 106499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I should probably start writing that compiler. < 1318390633 759565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, continue. < 1318390877 326798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe I will use trifecta; looks like I'd have to rip out part of Parsec to get it to be portable anyway. < 1318390910 732192 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Makes sense. < 1318390922 291973 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear Trifecta is going to contain at least 12 Parsecs. < 1318390924 552160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The token stuff uses polymorphic components.) < 1318390934 156645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly this is like the minorest thing ever.) < 1318390963 696704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, nah, it'll be easier just to roll my own version of that when the time comes. < 1318391074 50217 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh... since when is "primitive" a reserved name in Haskell? < 1318391092 566693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This Parsec module is full of lies. _ccall_ and _casm_ and forall aren't either, to my knowledge. < 1318391105 825189 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will QHC support dependent types? < 1318391110 818057 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had better support dependent types. < 1318391178 682077 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318391184 103578 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so < 1318391206 182716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ < 1318391206 386822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : __ _| |__ ___ < 1318391206 533571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : / _` | '_ \ / __| < 1318391206 533764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, | (_| | | | | (__ will not support dependent types. < 1318391206 533871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : \__, |_| |_|\___| < 1318391206 880943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : |_| < 1318391220 265558 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an example of a tree whose left and right subtrees are complete, but the whole tree is full. < 1318391225 42929 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels one-upped. :-( < 1318391228 987224 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has been stumping me for some time. help #esoteric-homework < 1318391238 932416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, I didn't use any freaky-deaky Unicode. < 1318391246 833422 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whole tree is not full < 1318391254 442466 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1318391264 965716 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not left and right subtrees are full but the whole tree is not complete. < 1318391269 810332 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wetijwreiuthwert < 1318391274 382728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But don't worry; 𝕢𝕙𝕔 loves us all, even if we aren't masters of obscurity. < 1318391283 842622 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brmy brain is broken. < 1318391316 12620 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh does an empty tree count as full? < 1318391326 895849 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Those Unicode characters are so advanced my IRC client doesn't even display them. < 1318391342 236619 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm going to call them "Unicorn characters". < 1318391345 560318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Probably a font issue. < 1318391348 239523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just blackboard bold. < 1318391353 25704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lowercase blackboard bold. < 1318391353 497049 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not a font issue. < 1318391355 505911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most common of things. < 1318391363 476455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Why would your terminal fail to display them? BMP issues? < 1318391363 623343 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I could've *sworn* I had blackboard bold available. < 1318391364 487714 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I open a new terminal and type some similar characters in, it works. < 1318391372 204041 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the characters you used were outside of the BMP, too... < 1318391374 399399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What terminal? < 1318391376 984568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC Qt is BMP-only. < 1318391392 158461 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's one of ssh/irssi/screen/something about the remote host. < 1318391392 304999 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a point of getting fonts for as much of Unicode as could be managed. < 1318391397 28518 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnome-terminal < 1318391406 94189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's not ssh. < 1318391408 183991 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's something about the host. < 1318391409 579045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I very much doubt it. < 1318391413 532254 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is an empty tree considered full? < 1318391414 618263 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I *do* have fonts for hieroglyphics!) < 1318391428 47989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: What's the best font I can get that covers as much of Unicode as possible? < 1318391430 207542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOSS preferred. < 1318391445 201069 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :𝴞 < 1318391448 789888 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that show up? < 1318391453 31234 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No. < 1318391456 497716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Font issue. < 1318391457 607686 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. < 1318391459 353067 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I do not know, insofar as I can tell there is not any *single* font with a satisfactory coverage. < 1318391461 600708 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :𝄞 < 1318391462 987431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm using XChat so Unicode works perfectly.) < 1318391464 170675 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about that? < 1318391465 647067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: OK, gimme a short list :P < 1318391466 635973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yep. < 1318391470 711186 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :G Clef? < 1318391480 243077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318391492 119916 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common fonts typically hit all of the BMP but CJK, though. < 1318391508 352756 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I ssh to the host that's running my IRC client and enter that characters, bash/readline/whatever turns it into a bunch of escape sequences. < 1318391511 68293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm interested in the more astral shit. As they say, in the hood. < 1318391515 623403 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's probably something about something about the host. < 1318391525 677841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try telnet. :p < 1318391538 513660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect termcap issues or something < 1318391541 485646 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls ~/.fonts|wc -l < 1318391542 435197 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :87 < 1318391545 934164 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any further questions? < 1318391565 401762 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay you guys are definitely ignoring me. ragequit time. < 1318391568 687491 :CakeProphet!621225dc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.18.37.220 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1318391571 817192 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf@argon:~$ ls ~/.fonts|wc -l < 1318391571 968147 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: cannot access /home/shachaf/.fonts: No such file or directory < 1318391571 968329 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1318391573 832562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it worked. < 1318391630 377456 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf@argon:~$ echo $(ls | egrep '^..?$') < 1318391630 524923 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a B c d D df e FF g hp io is j k lb m M MC o O p R Ro rt t u v W x xf y Z ZZ < 1318391648 192575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ls | wc -l < 1318391654 298267 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :138 < 1318391687 101750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: rm -rf . < 1318391714 568032 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf@argon:~$ rm -rf . < 1318391714 714481 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm: cannot remove directory: `.' < 1318391741 526760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :find . -exec rm -rf '{}' \; < 1318391814 163320 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION once did rm -rf ~/* accidentally. < 1318391826 592144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The solution is to always intend it. < 1318391832 774307 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was just rm -rf ~ < 1318392031 862300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1318392053 548262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`exec ls -lh /dev/null < 1318392055 854140 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: exec: not found < 1318392056 13657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1318392059 65207 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 1, 3 2011-10-11 18:32 /dev/null < 1318392061 882848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go. < 1318392111 728728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but seriously, primitive isn't a reserved word, is it? < 1318392197 407250 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> reserve primitive < 1318392198 937058 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : now it is < 1318392209 67630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no. < 1318392210 327280 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> primitive + 1 < 1318392211 865453 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: Reserved word used as identifier < 1318392216 368198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1318392222 66530 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> reserve let < 1318392222 945477 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `let' < 1318392264 278191 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> unreserve іn < 1318392265 101780 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ` < 1318392268 762570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1318392279 778170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> unreserve іn < 1318392280 635377 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ` < 1318392289 597625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> unreserve іn < 1318392291 170391 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Unreserved. < 1318392298 861858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let іn = 99 in іn < 1318392299 684723 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 99 < 1318392308 21121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That would be more impressive if I hadn't repeatedly fucked up. < 1318392328 71353 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "let іn = 99 in іn" < 1318392328 930260 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "let \1110n = 99 in \1110n" < 1318392370 860793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : -- "as","qualified","hiding" < 1318392376 950549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARE YOU TELLING ME THOSE AREN'T RESERVED NAME >_< < 1318392378 253997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :names < 1318392403 934231 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Context? < 1318392423 361574 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/parsec/3.1.2/doc/html/src/Text-Parsec-Language.html, "haskell98Def" (upon which the also-lying "haskellDef" is built) < 1318392438 304401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitive is not a reserved name; as, qualified and hiding /are/, so why are they commented out? < 1318392447 349610 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And _ccall_ and _casm_ and forall are also not reversed names. < 1318392450 803772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :identLetter = identLetter haskell98Def <|> char '#' < 1318392453 957006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck are you smoking??? < 1318392459 305150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is so stupid. < 1318392469 37018 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let qualified = 5 in qualified < 1318392469 934241 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1318392472 696763 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No Unicode. < 1318392477 964779 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1318392479 772613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously? < 1318392480 816873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let as = 9 in as < 1318392481 660208 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 9 < 1318392485 715418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let hiding = 9 in hiding < 1318392486 592406 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 9 < 1318392489 829532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1318392496 659227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why doesn't "deriving" get that treatment < 1318392501 388763 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let forall = 5 in forall < 1318392502 188720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess for top-level declarations < 1318392502 335728 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1318392513 481898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, better question - why does forall get that treatment when RankNTypes is on? < 1318392514 640902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Does it?) < 1318392529 139350 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let forall :: forall forall. forall -> forall; forall forall = forall in forall x < 1318392530 84624 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `forall' < 1318392531 357595 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does export get that treatment when it's as context-specific as as/qualified/hiding? (Does it?) < 1318392577 731128 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let export = 1 in export < 1318392578 620486 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 < 1318392627 103161 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let forеign = id in forеign oil < 1318392628 719929 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : oil < 1318392652 133610 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Are you coming to BostonHaskell in ~2 weeks? < 1318392656 719146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1318392923 30634 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word "forall", "qualified", and "hiding" have special meanings in some cases, but it would not be ambiguous to use them in expressions since the special meanings of those words are not for expressions < 1318392974 376508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You never told me Control.Applicative wasn't part of the standard. < 1318393017 423647 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the word "foreign" it is different because it can occur as the first word of a top level declaration < 1318393040 638383 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought you knew. You never told me! < 1318393050 17910 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't sure whether elliott is even worth talking to. < 1318393055 734096 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not. < 1318393109 519645 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a good thing I don't talk to you, then, but to an IRC user of the same name. < 1318393132 450552 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's not worth talking to, either. < 1318393147 401270 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, conal? < 1318393149 471182 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1318393196 481392 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Anyway, if Applicative was part of the standard, it'd be a superclass of Monad. < 1318393205 473744 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like Functor would... Um... < 1318393206 924818 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it wouldn't. Functor isn't. < 1318393208 410491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1318393226 324453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pModule :: Parser Module < 1318393226 521524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pModule = Module < 1318393226 668228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : `fmap` (reserved "module" >> pModName) < 1318393226 668412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : `ap` wowIHateThisStyleAlready < 1318393241 843855 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the "foreign" I know is wrong because of a defect in my IRC client causing Unicode input not working, so if I highlight it and paste it, the "e" will not be pasted. < 1318393266 165839 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sigh... Just use Control.Applicative. < 1318393272 338200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT < 1318393273 162074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PORTABLE < 1318393274 359961 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENOOUGH < 1318393275 935775 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Next you'll tell me you won't implement hierarchical modules. < 1318393282 445466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are standard. < 1318393404 502053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pModule :: Parser Module < 1318393404 999710 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pModule = Module < 1318393405 165534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : `fmap` (reserved "module" >> pModName) < 1318393405 312285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : `ap` pExports < 1318393405 312458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : `ap` (reserved "where" >> pImports) < 1318393405 659355 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : `ap` (return []) < 1318393407 557750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where pModName = undefined; pExports = undefined; pImports = undefined < 1318393409 461072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truly, the height of elegance. < 1318393473 160009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parses an upper case letter (a character between 'A' and 'Z'). Returns the parsed character. < 1318393478 127427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsec documentation, no. Just no. < 1318393552 429836 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not use Applicative? o.O < 1318393626 811640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: NOT STANDARD < 1318393637 474978 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318393645 58801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/ < 1318393655 689560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to get something self-hosted without any extensions, which is of course completely ridiculous. < 1318393684 604764 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :using all of base isn't "non-standard" < 1318393696 51401 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :Applicative doesn't require any language extensions < 1318393702 895458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, fair enough :P < 1318393714 609579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure base itself requires a ton of language extensions though. < 1318394152 337103 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Control.Applicative doesn't, though. < 1318394158 501911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. < 1318394160 458054 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So just use Control.Applicative. < 1318394168 777566 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not as if you're not going to define *any* modules, is it? < 1318394172 734700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I've already written like thirty lines of code. < 1318394176 319144 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg < 1318394179 518721 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it back. < 1318394183 167029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's, like, three hundred lines of C. < 1318394190 147582 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drawing as many cards as you can is an almost sure way to lose at Pokemon Card. < 1318394307 807749 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MSleep < 1318394363 628255 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discard your hand, and then draw seven cards. How can you hold the pencil if you do not have any hand? Professor Oak must have been drunk at that time. < 1318394426 34695 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah < 1318394497 770143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ag < 1318394515 514902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aq < 1318394517 750490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :az < 1318394519 428690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hi < 1318394521 616195 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hi < 1318394671 82059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: waht ah < 1318394720 904089 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is hard to alugh when gasping for breath < 1318394902 764430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: rip??? < 1318394907 950557 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip. < 1318394921 79484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip monqy. ded. < 1318395157 329630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, original haskell had where-/expressions/ and no let < 1318395159 578593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no where clauses < 1318395219 494858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t approximants < 1318395220 360025 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `approximants' < 1318395224 455240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle partialQuotiens < 1318395224 732155 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1318395449 539538 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1318395506 1101 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah the answer is a binary tree with a root and any kind of non-empty full right subtree < 1318395521 304048 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming an empty tree is complete) < 1318395532 387821 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1318395535 254112 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/complete/full/ < 1318395578 438737 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then the left subtree is empty and thus full, and the right subtree is full but non-empty, so the whole tree isn't complete because it's "leaning left" (however you say that technically) < 1318395586 780914 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/leaning left/leaning right/ < 1318395597 529564 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've gotten into the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean so much < 1318395604 600924 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I literally typo with opposites. < 1318395811 834151 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh duh, also any tree where the right subtree's height is greater than the left, and both are full. < 1318395832 953621 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question being "draw a tree where the left and right subtrees are full, but the whole tree isn't complete" < 1318395980 365638 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping < 1318395982 833514 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1318395995 862064 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders just clueing CakeProphet in < 1318396006 838199 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. relevancy of [I] characters < 1318396019 955429 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clueing. Good word, best ... word. < 1318396035 698245 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: yes please clue me in. < 1318396056 616394 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...except I already have the right answer. But I guess you're not going to clue me in on that. < 1318396271 101679 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1318396356 505152 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that was a bit of a miscommunication < 1318396370 957479 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure was. < 1318396378 902699 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I figured out < 1318396384 107704 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the homestuck stuff too. < 1318396385 753118 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reread it. < 1318396450 901755 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, ok, good < 1318396492 701951 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :on an unrelated note < 1318396496 592213 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be getting a pet snake soon. < 1318396500 882736 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ball python. < 1318396519 688282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kill python, kill guido van rossum, < 1318396524 100025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :murder, < 1318396544 330849 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will train my ball python to kill Dutchmen. < 1318396561 135465 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad people have feelings too < 1318396563 216091 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're bad < 1318396564 479323 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's okay < 1318396573 111321 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I might have to get like a burmese python or something < 1318396576 15805 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote bad people have feelings too but they're bad so it's okay < 1318396578 41884 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :708) bad people have feelings too but they're bad so it's okay < 1318396581 28695 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python can't be worse than PHP, at least, right? < 1318396592 411113 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's half decent except for the occasional stupid decision, I think? < 1318396601 20827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least people most people don't believe php is good < 1318396608 454571 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll train him from a young age to kill Dutchmen. Then he will slither up to Guido's bed, coil around his body (crushing his bones), and then swallow him whole. < 1318396612 245705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :python has deluded quite a few < 1318396616 294676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :including you apparently < 1318396648 672734 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm under the impression that Ruby might be a better language than Python, but currently don't actually know much about the standard library just basic syntax-semantics. < 1318396661 212868 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what say you about Ruby? < 1318396673 573354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not in the business of comparing crap things but ruby is probably slightly better than python in some ways and worse in many other ways < 1318396673 720029 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix lambda, add TCO, then would Python be decent? < 1318396677 689092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's call it even, and use neither < 1318396679 342199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: no < 1318396686 732828 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python needs way more stuff. < 1318396706 725451 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to use python for scvhool stuff this quarter...it burns < 1318396714 849551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :scvhool < 1318396718 777678 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it's not too bad honestly. < 1318396722 932630 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: burns < 1318396727 117218 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm too used to Python, but how does Python burn?> < 1318396728 140162 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you like perl < 1318396735 188261 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: burns < 1318396739 193270 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: so? < 1318396741 222192 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better question: < 1318396742 643896 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it blend? < 1318396743 709673 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does Python burns? < 1318396745 275397 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you have bad taste < 1318396750 94301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: maybe i will go over it some other time with you but not now and not today. < 1318396750 277118 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: bad, burns < 1318396754 202615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can give you a comprehensive list. < 1318396765 45724 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: maybe I'm just comfortable programming in a variety of paradigms and languages? < 1318396765 638952 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might want compensation for the personal distress though. < 1318396768 741138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: hahaha < 1318396782 821481 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: hahaha < 1318396789 249729 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... I am... so... < 1318396796 676860 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what's funny. < 1318396798 517738 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I'm in a language I don't like, I can feel it resisting against what I want to do sometimes. < 1318396810 289209 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: that's typically inexperience, in my experience. < 1318396833 347468 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically. < 1318396843 838919 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: hahaha < 1318396854 232875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: so by your wonderful proof that simply being too blind to see huge gaping language flaws == just not being as awesome as you < 1318396862 239057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i take it you are comfortable with programming in bancstar < 1318396872 119050 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I didn't say anything about being awesome at programming. < 1318396873 433513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, maybe you're just not comfortable programming in a variety of paradigms and languages < 1318396873 612192 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does need more experience, but when I look stuff up and find what would be a very quick thing in a nice language is ... not so quick in the language I'm using.. < 1318396876 832028 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or knowing every language. < 1318396884 93045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so if you knew bancstar it would be ok? < 1318396891 585549 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't know. < 1318396894 923805 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :some languages are in fact bad. < 1318396901 751642 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :only some of them? < 1318396902 337189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1318396903 231797 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1318396904 476346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what < 1318396907 101247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is one of them < 1318396916 26598 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: what are you trying to do in which language? < 1318396917 915231 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why no one uses them to do anything. < 1318396931 293794 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Everyone uses Java, therefore it's good? < 1318396936 414627 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not that either. < 1318396937 743051 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: people have bad taste in languageS: a known fact < 1318396937 889813 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't remember < 1318396946 537893 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use bancstar. people use python. < 1318396949 943929 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why it is a known fact. < 1318396951 604989 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why < 1318396960 407642 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think people useD bancstar by choice < 1318396962 455186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: seriously, you wouldn't defend php, so you know your argument is shit from the getgo < 1318396969 437928 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is beloved mostly because it has a fairly comprehensive library set, and presents a low barrier to entry. < 1318396973 339583 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: or would hE??? < 1318396973 859041 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use php too < 1318396975 901211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do lots of things < 1318396984 47237 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1318396991 816431 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have a fair degree of leniency. < 1318396994 694097 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are not the most important qualities in language design, but they are pretty powerful in shaping language popularity. < 1318397009 829425 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP is awesome, with its naming conventions of "Fuck, what was the naming convention again? i for case-insensitive? I'll just use case just in case" < 1318397056 627058 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naming conventions that afaict contain _? as the word separator < 1318397061 732738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi; poop --disgusted, hexham < 1318397062 509587 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I can write python programs to do things rather easily. and that's... really all I care about practically. Yes I do like beauty and elegance, but it is not required for a language to be "not too bad" < 1318397067 636516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet just stop < 1318397087 176551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could write php programs to do things rather easily too i am sure it is not that hard to avoid and work around its numerous warts and flaws < 1318397091 310865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like with python < 1318397106 432793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not in any way a coherent defence of php and if you think it is you have problems with the very concept of "good" < 1318397107 756968 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1318397110 754702 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone told me to make some program that has HTML with three columns of buttons, to make green and red, delete, and text box to add a button. I could use PHP, but I didn't. Instead, I used SQL. < 1318397117 811397 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're experienced with PHP, presumably the nonexistent naming convention wouldn't hurt so much < 1318397124 937688 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: a wise choice < 1318397132 670774 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :python has inconsistent naming conventions as well, in practice < 1318397138 891963 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I realize there is One True Naming Convention < 1318397140 609725 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is better, PHP or SQL? < 1318397143 497877 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION covers his ears < 1318397146 330806 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LALALALALALA < 1318397146 658659 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably it depends what things, I suppose. < 1318397149 427267 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you look at actual modules it varies considerably. < 1318397151 444121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: what < 1318397161 319429 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not actually covering my ears < 1318397166 552156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW REALLY < 1318397177 565588 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretending to to make fun of myself for liking Python < 1318397209 438028 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: isn't your IRC client written in PHP or something? < 1318397215 706682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :write irc client in sql, < 1318397217 26202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(do this) < 1318397219 528560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg now i < 1318397221 151330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :want to do that < 1318397223 698117 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Yes it is. < 1318397230 598921 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1318397238 964637 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some day, I might possibly write a better one in C or whatever else. < 1318397253 265847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sql < 1318397260 849149 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think the main difference between Python and PHP is that PHP is just really a bad version of what perl does. < 1318397265 691053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1318397269 473802 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1318397274 33060 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : wow < 1318397277 834725 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops not enough space < 1318397278 683414 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooops < 1318397278 992488 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed. < 1318397293 3903 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :p.s. why is this happening < 1318397296 226858 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :p.s.s. why < 1318397298 901076 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1318397299 895909 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: get on my level. need more spaces man. < 1318397302 845426 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL is not seem very good to me for writing IRC client; SQL is best for database stuff, which is what it is designed for. < 1318397302 991965 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :p.p.s. p.p.s. < 1318397313 137842 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :p.p.p.s. not p.s.s. < 1318397315 982773 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy needs a u < 1318397317 829186 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monquy < 1318397321 106037 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monquy < 1318397348 379788 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so defending Python by using perl is not very convincing to you, I guess. < 1318397354 274883 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. debates are fun. < 1318397357 834115 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1318397370 337775 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calling PHP a crappy Perl really has no relation to Python one way or the other < 1318397386 989219 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: are there any good languages that has something like Shoes? < 1318397397 486470 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right I was explaining why PHP is shit and Python is not too bad (as I originally said) < 1318397400 468231 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my opinion. < 1318397404 607597 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, yeah, SQL is the canonical example of a DSL. < 1318397426 562340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sql is the best < 1318397427 911674 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a shoe < 1318397428 150866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for every < 1318397429 211211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :purpose < 1318397450 287864 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a Shoes < 1318397458 668366 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318397460 571181 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a shoes < 1318397484 172186 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i just remembered < 1318397491 555767 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that PHP is full of stupid stuff. < 1318397494 153954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody knows shoes < 1318397587 645101 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SQL that I used happened to be SQLite. < 1318397604 524382 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell orthopedic shoes. < 1318397626 449168 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hos < 1318397695 349794 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell, Oklahoma.ma < 1318397731 408422 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ih,o.m < 1318397746 368512 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hosih,o.m < 1318397754 306305 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this some kind of crude joke < 1318397778 673453 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tyop < 1318397784 291111 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because freezy chromy freezy < 1318397797 476173 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm lauighinhg. this is a bad sign < 1318397840 124202 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you good at playing poker and tetris simultaneously while blindfolded? < 1318397896 667464 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so do you think it's better for a programmer to be familiar and comfortable in a variety of languages? or do you think this is a waste of time? < 1318397912 37122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a question intimately related to the proposition "python is crap" < 1318397919 264283 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1318397924 393772 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to like, change the topic a little bit. < 1318397931 512096 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :away from pointless language discussion. < 1318397966 601535 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :discussion of language worth, rather. < 1318397981 864826 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: A programmer should be familiar and comfortable in a variety of language paradigms. < 1318398008 813868 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Picking up languages in a paradigm you're already familiar with is generally a trivial exercise. < 1318398014 189707 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I agree. I think it makes one a well-rounded programmer. perhaps not necessarily a better programmer overall, but at least versatile. < 1318398056 407965 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should add to this that my notion of "paradigm" might be a bit less broad than most people's. < 1318398066 654134 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, I'm generally inclined to call Lisp a paradigm. < 1318398073 415884 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is not quite as broad either. < 1318398103 515378 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, "paradigm" might not be the right term... Though "family" isn't quite right either. < 1318398112 352521 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Human language needs to be more specific than it is. < 1318398123 317691 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: is it perhaps related to idioms? < 1318398133 19432 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages with shared idioms? < 1318398138 863619 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1318398140 830690 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit vague. < 1318398150 759198 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing idiomatic python sucks too < 1318398153 458109 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paradigm might actually be the right term. < 1318398168 653951 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why did i bring pythoin up i must be tired (will slep soon)) < 1318398181 752080 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, the way you might code a problem in perl would be very different from python, ruby, C, or... well anything else I can think of. < 1318398183 828985 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :((((Help)))))))) < 1318398186 633984 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar though. < 1318398192 112261 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it's procedural. < 1318398213 853491 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : The way you might code a problem in Perl would probably most resemble the way you'd code it in awksh. < 1318398225 485565 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where awksh is a hypothetical combination of awk and sh. < 1318398228 721845 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to a degree. < 1318398239 717379 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh for sure is similar. < 1318398254 626730 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it safe to say that Perl sucks less than sh? < 1318398257 29454 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then sh is also a unique kind of paradigm. < 1318398262 43348 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: hmmm.... < 1318398267 250366 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... yes, I think. < 1318398271 514874 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1318398273 361257 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bad at sh so < 1318398280 519902 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't really say that confidently. < 1318398295 268658 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm inclined to say "yes-ish". < 1318398309 856809 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl has its own weirdness. < 1318398324 113210 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is far overcomplicated, but sh has *really* strange properties. < 1318398340 334423 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you account for differing implementations. < 1318398355 110904 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Randall Munroe hates X < 1318398362 894956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone hates X < 1318398371 893363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody cares who hates what and you shouldn't either < 1318398380 880546 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite perl's faults I do find programming in it to be a joy. I'm not sure why. < 1318398392 168984 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This puts him in the set of people who know things about X, I think. < 1318398414 402432 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hating X is a pretty good indicator of sanity amongst people who know what X is. < 1318398414 549121 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, not necessarily < 1318398417 772476 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a priori < 1318398418 829097 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: have you considered you may be a bad person < 1318398424 159814 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: no. < 1318398437 58637 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: You can hate X easily with only a *little* bit of knowledge about it. < 1318398446 692134 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what X is, and that it's widely hated, but know no details other than server/client < 1318398453 969053 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which seems a bit weird to me for most uses, but < 1318398457 234110 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only begin to hate it more the more you know. < 1318398458 200356 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :< CakeProphet> not a priori --re: Sgeo's statement about sets < 1318398501 982956 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think X server vs. X client is backwards. Does this make me a bad person? < 1318398530 430961 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not *really*. Which way is appropriate is really a matter of perspective. < 1318398531 997942 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably not the big issue < 1318398539 41432 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: X11 is only *technically* userspace. < 1318398546 955119 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I think finding fondness in what monqy considers bad is probably some kind of sign of good character. < 1318398549 953183 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow. < 1318398550 117363 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :......technically userspace? < 1318398567 624022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i am sure hitler thought similar < 1318398572 331710 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, does it need superuser stuff to get access to the screen? < 1318398579 858250 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worse. < 1318398588 599160 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh snap reductio ad Hitlerum < 1318398591 931128 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been reduced. < 1318398608 76231 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof cakeprophet is literally hitler < 1318398621 254921 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you prefer Xaw? < 1318398632 440431 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has access to all the RAM (well, until recent Linux or BSD *with X.org's builtin drivers*) < 1318398648 113387 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :....what does it need with full access to RAM? < 1318398661 500875 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It needs access to the video card. < 1318398672 290992 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This game is bad because Hitler played it." (a message that I included in a game that I made) < 1318398678 676729 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kernel does not provide video drivers. < 1318398681 120383 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :X does. < 1318398703 822722 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION discovered recently that perl's value/reference semantics are completely different from every other language with any kind of reference-passing thing. < 1318398713 260452 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And video drivers typically operate by manipulating stuff in RAM that the hardware reads? < 1318398738 8433 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: is this a good or bad thing < 1318398739 345649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shit? < 1318398744 92713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: How did you think they operated? < 1318398747 260517 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the video cards essentially always are accessed via memory mapping. < 1318398748 75723 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: neither. it was just unexpected. < 1318398751 492791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: It's called memory-mapping. < 1318398755 241659 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: resulting in a bug in my program < 1318398757 645100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reads and writes go to the hardware. < 1318398772 314497 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even *VGA* functions primarily by writing directly to the framebuffer like this. < 1318398785 587784 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e "my %t=(); my $x = \%t; %t = (x=>2, y=>3); print %$x" < 1318398787 753923 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318398792 750012 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e 'my %t=(); my $x = \%t; %t = (x=>2, y=>3); print %$x' < 1318398794 786560 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318398795 523081 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok. elliott, I don't know, CPU instructions that say "Send this to that hardware". Although I guess doing that by any means other than memory-mapping would be intolerable < 1318398796 882976 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wat < 1318398832 425843 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nevermind, I still don't know how it works completely. < 1318398835 297350 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Well, there's port IO. But it's horrible. < 1318398844 235092 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is CPU instruction for port I/O < 1318398853 521993 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: There *are* instructions for doing that; outb and inb. There's 2^16-1 ports for that, and you can only send 16 bits per instruction, and it's a royal pain to use, and it's x86-specific. < 1318398867 930672 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, not 16 bits per instruction. 8. < 1318398878 5995 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, that makes sense < 1318398887 535682 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the use of memory-mapping < 1318398895 443562 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the complaint is that it's X that does it? < 1318398899 609713 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of kernel < 1318398907 975554 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For this in particular, yeah. < 1318398922 682495 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not think port I/O is bad. It is good for some things. But memory mapping is also good for some things. < 1318398924 63244 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :X essentially is kernel mode stuff that pretends not to be. < 1318398934 913827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I mentioned @ handles this perfectly? < 1318398935 735208 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Port IO is just quite limited. < 1318398990 323401 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'd imagine memory mapping to be good for things where a lot of stuff needs to be sent quickly < 1318399006 617489 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it still takes CPU instructions to change RAM < 1318399013 686234 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e '%t=(1,2); $x = \%t; %t = (1,2,3,4); print %$x;' < 1318399015 488705 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234 < 1318399020 265993 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: can you read that code? < 1318399025 436356 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see what I'm talking about? < 1318399055 855135 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That line makes perfect sense < 1318399064 981260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: memory-mapped IO does _not touch RAM_. < 1318399065 943354 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does. now. < 1318399071 417792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least not the main RAM. < 1318399073 906340 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: maybe. i'll try. < 1318399084 840766 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: that's gross < 1318399086 683254 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: so gross < 1318399089 584232 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: why would you do that < 1318399091 356491 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ughhhhh < 1318399093 334972 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memory mapping is better for the video because you can put the address of memory for each character cell in the grid, or each pixel, etc. < 1318399112 109250 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does % and \% mean in perl < 1318399120 802070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :% is hash < 1318399122 987864 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :% goes in front of hash variables < 1318399124 427286 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's more that certain physical addresses just hit hardware rather than RAM. < 1318399124 899046 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right, derp, sorry. Actually, I wasn't sure about that TBH. But it still takes instructions to update each byte of "RAM", doesn't it? < 1318399127 619934 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ is reference < 1318399138 124307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Sure, if RAM writing instructions only took one byte... < 1318399146 848488 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah the semantics I wanted in my program went like this: < 1318399155 872875 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e '%t=(1,2); $x = {%t}; %t = (1,2,3,4); print %$x;' < 1318399157 994932 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 < 1318399174 505684 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I wanted to make a copy so that overwriting t doesn't change the value referenced by $x < 1318399175 291650 :derrik!~xix@82.131.89.3.cable.starman.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318399175 843815 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Memory access can happen on the *word*, not just the byte. Also, it's pretty heavily optimised. < 1318399182 404439 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :{%t} is code that's executed immediately? < 1318399190 139957 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no {} is a hash reference in this case. < 1318399195 842026 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh-huh? < 1318399201 716764 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to shut up about perl < 1318399216 344646 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :{%t} makes a copy of %t and then returns a reference to that copy. < 1318399218 717316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: also there are instructions for copying huge blocks... < 1318399225 739290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly they're likely slower than really finely-tuned loops these days < 1318399235 31093 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: can I pretend the CPU is like a switch/case? If so, would the memory access instructions be closer than the port I/O ones to being first to be checked against < 1318399240 358311 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :\%t just makes a reference to the /variable/ %t. So like, changing %t changes everything it references to. < 1318399247 678155 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: You really, truly cannot any more. < 1318399262 83322 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: erm, sorry? < 1318399277 783514 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPU designs are more complicated than you think. < 1318399295 376073 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can do fun things like: < 1318399296 872907 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e '%t=(y=>2); $x = \$t{x}; $$x = 4; print %t;' < 1318399298 878969 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :y2x4 < 1318399305 680132 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A CPU is generally executing several instructions in parallel, with a lot of work going into making them appear to execute instructions in serial. < 1318399305 828557 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Port I/O would be good for keyboard, since keyboard is an external device, it need to send/receive to computer, to tell the signal of which key is pushed. < 1318399306 649124 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :references to hash table keys. < 1318399309 896109 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: what < 1318399314 219760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: switch/case compiles to a jump table < 1318399317 573275 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may not even exist beforehand. < 1318399318 789249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no "nearness" to it < 1318399322 801136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least in C) < 1318399336 950105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's, you know, the whole reason to use switch < 1318399343 994234 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, in the case of many RISC CPUs, a lot of documentation about when you cannot assume serial execution. < 1318399345 810003 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hence the s|switch/case|if/else if| which apparently I did not actually type < 1318399353 408425 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: references are probably the grossest part of perl, I'd say. < 1318399365 649494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: cpus don't; have never worked that way < 1318399371 688749 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Invent a nonserial CPU. < 1318399381 299120 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python could probably benefit from having references. maybe. < 1318399397 226797 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that will never, ever happen. < 1318399407 698636 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Take PPC, remove all serialism guarantees, add some more join primitives, bam. < 1318399424 641316 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this will probably not be any better) < 1318399426 334491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: < 1318399429 529113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :def ref(x): return [x] < 1318399433 136345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :def deref(x): return x[0] < 1318399438 118331 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well yes < 1318399438 444789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :def put(x,v): x[0] = v < 1318399439 759369 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always that < 1318399443 661189 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do it via class. < 1318399447 172900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is also how you do closures < 1318399448 833464 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-thre < 1318399449 536288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1318399454 167978 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Also fun: there are 0 clock cycle instructions on x86. < 1318399468 208619 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what a clock cycle instruction is < 1318399468 480199 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but it's funny how adding actual references would be AWFUL according to Python programmers. < 1318399481 590743 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: even though you can already do that. < 1318399484 147413 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: That's "an instruction that takes 0 clock cycles to execute". < 1318399509 653341 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... assume that's a theoretical thing, that is it behaves as if... somehow? < 1318399522 179915 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x87 is very very strange. < 1318399530 396101 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x87 now? < 1318399538 575547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the fpu chip < 1318399561 577865 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know how it presents an API of a single floating point stack, with entries mapped to registers? < 1318399567 236038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt he does < 1318399577 912239 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine based on what pikhq_ just said < 1318399579 219115 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x87 has instructions for various stack swapping operations on that stack. < 1318399587 329206 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: you should totally learn perl. best language. porpoises. < 1318399598 27323 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the best porpoises. < 1318399623 159428 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: x86 can swap registers without calls to x87? < 1318399642 392535 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: No, x87 can swap floating point registers. < 1318399643 699498 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, Siri looks pretty impressive. < 1318399658 227871 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modern implementations, though, just treat that as a register rename. < 1318399680 457592 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this takes 0 clock cycles? < 1318399688 149410 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is this something else altogether < 1318399703 209692 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The operation gets stuck in the pipeline, gets decoded, and then that's the end of execution. < 1318399722 519659 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In D&D game I did advance level. I can take two psionic power and two spells, due to Cerebremancer class. I have already selected powers, which are, Dimension Door, Ethereal Agent, but I have not selected the spells, yet. < 1318399722 784520 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: er so wait did you figure out what it did < 1318399726 358772 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothing about CPU internals < 1318399729 775531 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: or did you just start calling it gross. < 1318399730 40511 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, very, very little < 1318399734 726317 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up to a certain amount of them, and your x87 stack manipulation is free. < 1318399743 201206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well not totally free < 1318399745 935506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still has to be decoded :) < 1318399767 912756 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a GPU program with open source Checkout. But, currently there is no such program to make that. < 1318399787 307527 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, pretty darned close to free. < 1318399800 199960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"iPhone 4 ass" -- iPhone 4S, attempting to decode someone saying its name < 1318399856 115731 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of smartphones I have a phone upgrade and am thinking about wasting money on a smartphone I don't need. < 1318399871 137941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god tell me it doesn't know the ultimate question. < 1318399872 360021 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does iOS 5 allow for the sort of multitasking that would be required to have an IRC client running in the background? < 1318399872 633728 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :when my Blackberry curve does everything I need. what do? < 1318399873 393589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me < 1318399874 46946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it < 1318399874 747856 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1318399881 298306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Thanks to W|A but still.) < 1318399892 194490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA IT KNOWS "OPEN THE POD BAY DOORS" BUILT-IN < 1318399918 72194 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you were making x reference t, mutating t, and wow it mutated x (ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww) (this was in the first one) < 1318399920 668284 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: I'm pretty sure iOS 4 had multitasking. < 1318399943 658426 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading that it was only certain things that can multitask, or was that an earlier iOS? < 1318399945 350256 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: well, x technically didn't mutate, but yes. < 1318399955 404245 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the appearance of x mutated < 1318399958 29081 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that betteR? < 1318399967 201996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Before iOS 4, multitasking was limited to a selection of the applications Apple included on the devices.[23] Apple worried that running multiple third-party applications simultaneously would drain batteries too quickly. Starting with iOS 4, on 3rd-generation and newer iOS devices, multitasking is supported through seven background APIs:[24]" < 1318399977 175868 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: actually now that I think about it this is how most languages with references/pointers work I was just expecting weird things from it. < 1318400010 540842 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do any of those seven background APIs allow for IRCing? < 1318400011 906394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: anyway, a bouncer is a trivial solution to that < 1318400026 644475 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously nicer than a separate mobile connection < 1318400061 333011 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: also you would use references when you want a function to produce multiple results and put them in varying locations, for example. < 1318400086 52743 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, probably could be faked through one of them < 1318400088 697545 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: this is one of the ways perl does command line option processing. you give it a hash table of the options and the variable that should be changed based on the options found. < 1318400113 47801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Due to the way multitasking is implemented in iOS, Mobile Colloquy can't stay connected constantly. When you press the Home button or switch applications, Mobile Colloquy asks iOS to allow it to continue to run to complete a task in the background, that task being to keep you connected for as long as possible. Any highlight word mentions, or private messages you receive will trigger a notification whi < 1318400113 312153 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :le Colloquy is running in the background. < 1318400113 478520 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tasks can only last a maximum of 10 minutes, so 9 minutes after you've switched away from Colloquy it'll warn you that you'll be disconnected in a minute. To continue to stay connected, just tap Open on the alert. Switching back to Colloquy before 10 minutes have elapsed, then switching away again will reset the countdown." < 1318400117 480140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: honestly, a bouncer is the best way < 1318400120 70491 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i.e. grose? < 1318400124 820826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the only side-effect is that you only get notifications for like ten minutes but who cares < 1318400126 664229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318400129 922595 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's wrong < 1318400132 603361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :push notifications still work it seems < 1318400134 637672 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, convenient, but I guess gross by monqy's definition since it involves mutation, so yes. < 1318400167 559272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: so yeah, tl;dr bouncers are the best solution to that, even on a phone that does full multitasking (= is sluggish, with the kind of apis unix provides) < 1318400175 14379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that most people imitate) < 1318400197 256760 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should invent a language that operates entirely via mutation of memory locations. < 1318400200 259452 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll call it x86. < 1318400210 649613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: that's in cpressey's louie < 1318400214 922477 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything memory-mapped < 1318400216 276724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :including control < 1318400226 250690 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ill murder you with a rusty stick < 1318400228 347239 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work. < 1318400236 361959 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That Wireworld CPU did the same thing. < 1318400262 98952 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wireworld being a CA that essentially imitates electronics) < 1318400265 656236 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1318400269 326352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: http://catseye.tc/projects/zowie/ < 1318400273 433472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the louie one is an additional thing < 1318400276 233823 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that actually exists < 1318400299 377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ZOWIE is a programming language where all flow-control is both memory-mapped and structured. It is memory-mapped in the sense that changes in flow are triggered by changes made to memory locations, and it is structured in the sense of structured programming – the programmer never deals with gotos, offsets, or labels of any kind." < 1318400309 988146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg it uses transactions < 1318400311 998455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the hottest language < 1318400360 759295 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so sexy. < 1318400367 788826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sarcasm fuck you < 1318400401 647051 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything that was a little bit of wordplay. I don't really know anything about this language yet so sarcasm would be unwarranted. < 1318400425 792238 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about Wireworld except it looks interesting < 1318400438 842352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Don't overcook that egg." - Siri < 1318400439 404248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rude < 1318400449 357030 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not TC though, any more than a real computer presumably < 1318400465 163093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D he informs siri he's actually making tea (it said that after setting a timer), and it's rude enough to tell him about tea rooms in the area < 1318400470 648713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no no, here's how to get a proper cup of tea" < 1318400479 763776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: it is with an infinitely tiled pattern < 1318400485 531668 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: oh hey guess what I made effective use of references to reduce the size of some code. nyah nyah nyah < 1318400523 871570 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318400542 674423 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1318400559 823899 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: nyah in hell < 1318400575 889057 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : ($grams, $fs) = \($data{$dset}, $freqs{$dset}) < 1318400587 323105 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole "referencing a list makes a list of references" is probably the weirdest thing ever < 1318400590 195098 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I just found a use for it... < 1318400671 147747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION resists the urge to support bad market and ethical practices < 1318400699 525851 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Wednesdays < 1318400705 205279 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1318400709 39691 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words \($a, $b) == (\$a, \$b) < 1318400710 356841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: btw, i bet you could hack up "native" irc with the voice over ip stuff < 1318400715 374389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be awkward and terrible < 1318400719 750895 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but \@array is just an array reference. < 1318400724 868523 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because arrays are not quite the same as lists. < 1318400737 301554 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, what language is this? < 1318400739 784129 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl. < 1318400742 30207 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1318400743 144322 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1318400746 834962 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you're talking to me. < 1318400756 798309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: also all this api stuff is unrelated to the actual multitasking UI which is exposed for all apps obviously < 1318400761 394256 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was Haskell for a second, got all confused < 1318400765 480757 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol what < 1318400769 608626 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you best be trolling. < 1318400771 500155 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, CakeProphet, I was talking to you < 1318400777 424301 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm just tired < 1318400798 733324 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Quit: I am also tired. < 1318400801 375516 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott and monqy are going to kill you in your sleep now. I imagine. < 1318400801 704346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The secondary design goal of ZOWIE was to strike the perfect balance between It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World and The Party. It is generally considered a morbid failure in that regard, what with not being a madcap 60's movie and all." < 1318400802 411217 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And possibly hallucinating < 1318400806 592135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: best quit message < 1318400830 268331 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we add quit messages to the quotes? < 1318400882 132408 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : ($grams, $fs) = \($data{$dset=$1}, $freqs{$dset}) < 1318400883 45452 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bahahahaha < 1318400885 139743 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so evil. < 1318400894 590063 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: yes but it'd need more context than is reasonable to work well i think < 1318400899 709671 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: why are you doing this...... < 1318400916 822946 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: well I did that because it removed a line of code and isn't really all that difficult to follow. < 1318400980 396424 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm just tired - zzo38 has quit IRC: Quit: I am also tired. < 1318400986 411115 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PERFECT < 1318400989 660414 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depnds on the order of evaluation of the things in the thing aghahgahghaghaghahgahghaghaghaghh < 1318400998 997980 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: that's fine < 1318401000 888837 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1318401001 810965 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isnt < 1318401002 796264 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it's left to right. < 1318401003 816818 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dIE < 1318401036 528022 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I would never rely on order of evaluation in a non-strict language. but this is not one of those languages. < 1318401087 325014 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHILE+arithmatic+unbounded num of registers = TC? < 1318401087 883204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't rely on order of evaluation in a non-strict language < 1318401088 899424 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually < 1318401096 524799 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: precisely. < 1318401098 170545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: most things are tc < 1318401106 394726 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: or, rather, it requires some pondering. < 1318401110 262070 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can be done in some situations. < 1318401127 707658 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I don't even need $dset I can just put $1 there. < 1318401130 92307 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better. < 1318401140 896387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: 0 - delete leftmost bit (of program); 1 -> look at next bit x; if leftmost program bit is 1: copy x to right end of program < 1318401147 241384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: cycle to beginning when reaching the end < 1318401152 390530 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: that's most likely TC < 1318401176 238450 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty program string → halt, if you want a halting state (it'll just infloop otherwise) < 1318401185 214002 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: let's see.. how else can I make you hate me. < 1318401186 560131 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no loop apart from one outer, unconditional loop; only one conditional < 1318401189 655138 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I know I could remove all unecessary spaces. < 1318401194 6418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that conditional has no loop-breaking power < 1318401199 805496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also no data outside the program < 1318401201 570978 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse$fl close$f; etc < 1318401206 193783 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :-l < 1318401208 229889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's TC, how could while+arithmetic not be? :-) < 1318401221 840479 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I won't do that because spaces are good. < 1318401271 851187 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you make all loops/recursion be done by self-modification < 1318401276 903109 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when golfing NO INSIGNIFICANT SPACES ALLOWED. < 1318401293 314157 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise those sigils would add up. < 1318401406 921802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?undo do x <- f a; g b >>= h x < 1318401407 336628 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a >>= \ x -> g b >>= h x < 1318401408 707871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?. pl undo do x <- f a; g b >>= h x < 1318401408 953748 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(g b >>=) . h =<< f a < 1318401465 861868 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see why it's called undo < 1318401467 344807 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318401477 219362 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: ...good job. < 1318401489 814957 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: when I saw it used before this, it was with a list comprehension < 1318401501 759583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note note: It seems some of you are having trouble understanding the version system being used for SMITH, which is eminently understandable given that it is completely inconsistent. The first version had no version. The second version, released a scant few days later, containing many new instructions, was "v2". That version was re-christened "version 2.0L" when we added the BSD license to it (because < 1318401502 98733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"L" is for "license", y'see?) The third version, released a scant few years later, was "version 2007.0722". This was back when we thought date-based version numbers could substitute entirely for sequence-based version numbers. This version was also known as "version 2.1 revision 2007.0722" when we dropped that idea. The current version, which differs mainly in that its documentation contains this parag < 1318401502 264944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :raph, is version 2.1-2011.0922. Your knowledge is now complete. Go home." < 1318401502 905201 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay. < 1318401526 289955 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closes the file or pipe associated with the filehandle, flushes the IO buffers, and closes the system file descriptor. Returns true if those operations succeed and if no error was reported by any PerlIO layer. Closes the currently selected filehandle if the argument is omitted. < 1318401533 241560 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the hell the "currently selected" filehandle is. < 1318401540 510948 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the... last thing I opened? < 1318401570 115293 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it bad that i started versioning for my product at 5 < 1318401575 637630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are bad die < 1318401592 625306 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :next version will be 5.1 < 1318401616 545218 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run touch test && perl -e 'open (my $f = "test"); close; print $f "test"' < 1318401618 451392 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401624 729287 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cat test < 1318401626 455531 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401629 415571 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....? < 1318401631 416452 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1318401643 994608 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls | grep test < 1318401645 906053 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1318401664 705537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, cpressey shelved rho. < 1318401668 5697 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls | grep nosuchfilenananeenerneener < 1318401670 65192 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401680 932036 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'open ($_ = "test"); close; print $_ "test"' < 1318401681 589142 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run touch "No output." < 1318401682 654027 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401683 656461 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401688 865058 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat touch < 1318401690 835034 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: touch: No such file or directory < 1318401695 318350 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1318401695 914651 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1318401697 925529 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :GBP_1865 \ No output. \ bin \ canary \ cups \ karma \ lib \ m \ paste \ pound_1752 \ quotes \ quotes.new \ share \ test \ wisdom < 1318401708 811642 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run rm GBP_1865 pound_1752 'No output.' < 1318401710 596080 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401713 178379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run diff quotes quotes.new | paste < 1318401715 326821 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22839 < 1318401730 263762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm quotes.new < 1318401730 592446 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor fix your HTTP headers < 1318401732 247028 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401732 393749 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so I have no idea what it means by currently selected filehandle. < 1318401733 535169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls cups < 1318401735 502568 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cups < 1318401736 491026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat cups < 1318401738 649490 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401741 62467 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm cups < 1318401742 824257 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401743 885710 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat test < 1318401745 418884 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401746 239767 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm test < 1318401747 757409 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401750 594154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1318401752 459167 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ m \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom < 1318401755 125509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat m < 1318401755 789919 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "No output." > "No output." < 1318401756 961047 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401758 673176 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401761 846724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run rm "No output." < 1318401763 661722 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401763 987694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm m < 1318401765 862844 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318401766 716813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1318401768 742673 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ m \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom < 1318401770 930062 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm m < 1318401771 970363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1318401773 384963 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm: cannot remove `m': No such file or directory < 1318401773 648965 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: killjoy < 1318401773 810156 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom < 1318401782 799074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: I don't want HackEgo to end up filled with shit again. < 1318401785 410181 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to ask #perl I guess. < 1318401887 578006 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay so the currently selected filehandle is selected via the select function. < 1318401893 678794 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1318402050 624017 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so select $f would be equivalent to something like sys.stdout, sys.stdin, sys.stderr = f, f, f < 1318402053 543964 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Python < 1318402061 752384 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys.stdout = sys.stdin = sys.stderr = f < 1318402068 488774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl f "x" . g (map f xs) < 1318402068 719757 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f "x" . g (map f xs) < 1318402074 107168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1318402200 13038 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I enjoy perl's concept of lvalue. < 1318402232 702949 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : open my $t, ">$target_file"; < 1318402257 142327 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I will have shower < 1318402262 412450 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye IRC < 1318402272 708141 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: CLEANLINESS < 1318402280 970893 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have really encountered anything else that treats lvalues are a special kind of expression. < 1318402288 178639 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/are/as/ < 1318402297 52291 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... except Lisp maybe? < 1318402301 590269 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's similar. < 1318402362 189140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle [a] -> Integer -> a < 1318402362 621800 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List genericIndex :: Integral a => [b] -> a -> b < 1318402362 900838 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List intersperse :: a -> [a] -> [a] < 1318402363 47389 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List genericDrop :: Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a] < 1318402366 827953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle [a] -> Integer -> Maybe a < 1318402367 163448 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List genericIndex :: Integral a => [b] -> a -> b < 1318402367 448930 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List elemIndex :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Maybe Int < 1318402367 595600 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude const :: a -> b -> a < 1318402373 215581 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle listToMaybe < 1318402373 498065 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Maybe listToMaybe :: [a] -> Maybe a < 1318402503 708142 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'mj remembering a package that had some stuff that turned list operations which could fail into maybes was it called safe < 1318402509 983859 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this not what you want < 1318402511 652868 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :() < 1318402618 537315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1318402627 929004 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aosigdf < 1318402659 801116 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should slep but i want to get a heads tart on the python i have to do by friday (oops) < 1318402683 311332 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe what i have done thus far is a heads tart ennough < 1318402694 798132 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: what's the assignment? < 1318402728 473995 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a prorgm analysis. just a simple anyslisis (constant propagation) but it's python and i have to learn this wacky framework the class is using < 1318402745 533327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl (a -> m b) -> m c -> m c < 1318402745 831554 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 4): < 1318402746 197891 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ">" < 1318402746 344948 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting variable, "(", operator or ")" < 1318402751 703593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle (a -> m b) -> m c -> m c < 1318402752 137228 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Exception handleJust :: Exception e => (e -> Maybe b) -> (b -> IO a) -> IO a -> IO a < 1318402752 400859 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Exception.Base handleJust :: Exception e => (e -> Maybe b) -> (b -> IO a) -> IO a -> IO a < 1318402752 547572 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.OldException handleJust :: (Exception -> Maybe b) -> (b -> IO a) -> IO a -> IO a < 1318402759 205495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle (a -> m ()) -> m c -> a -> m c < 1318402759 676546 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1318402762 849694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle (a -> m b) -> m c -> a -> m c < 1318402763 189113 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1318402768 350842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl f >=> const (return g) < 1318402768 580407 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f >=> const (return g) < 1318402774 145411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle (a -> m b) -> c -> a -> m c < 1318402774 494892 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1318402774 680503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1318402784 767682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ((<$) .) < 1318402785 625368 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a (f :: * -> *) b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f1 a -> f1 (f b -> f a) < 1318402802 647225 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice caleskell < 1318402806 682154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ((<$) P..) < 1318402807 565655 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't find qualified module. < 1318402808 661105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ((<$) Prelude..) < 1318402809 543660 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b (f :: * -> *) b1 a. (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> a -> f b1 -> f b < 1318402819 323163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1318402825 377668 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttyReg :: Register < 1318402825 543799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttyReg = Register < 1318402825 690439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : { peek = fromIntegral . ord <$> getChar < 1318402825 690566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : , poke = putChar . chr . fromIntegral >=> const (return ttyReg) < 1318402825 690613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1318402827 40864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it not so bad < 1318402875 409611 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just / do my stuff tomorrow < 1318402881 93375 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now: slepe < 1318402882 834105 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1318402964 90693 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318402987 218209 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :R7 < 1318402987 378916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When a value is written into R7, the boolean negation of that value is written into R7: 1 if the value was 0, and 0 otherwise. Reading from R7 always offers the value 7. < 1318402990 493034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no........................... < 1318402993 66456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wronge.... < 1318403016 55657 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1318403072 913732 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wait what < 1318403082 122689 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're saying that the spec is wrong? < 1318403087 710732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1318403092 856672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's self-contradictory < 1318403094 990432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1318403095 354820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :R8 < 1318403095 503159 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that spec is useless, but does useless == wrong? < 1318403095 503382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really memory-mapped, but used as an "accumulator" by the registers R4 through R7. < 1318403101 179338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shows the obvious intended interpretation < 1318403116 851105 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1318403118 570009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: dude, interpreting charitably is the only reason any funge ninety-eight interpreters exist < 1318403123 217977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :same guy, same rules < 1318403146 329929 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: huh. Why wouldn't Funge-98 interpreters exist with a strict interpretation? < 1318403158 642792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the spec is almost certainly self-contradictory < 1318403160 117416 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!seen cpressy < 1318403162 701992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if not that, large swathes of it are useless < 1318403166 424784 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen cpressy < 1318403174 810533 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!seen cpressey < 1318403178 661494 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1318403185 471428 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :~seen cpressey < 1318403198 748671 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[^W]seen cpressey < 1318403212 287991 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: where is the arbitrary Python injection bug? < 1318403219 554022 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I exploit it now? < 1318403233 359456 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: wait what? < 1318403247 222672 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...nevermind < 1318403247 842276 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a bug in PSOX that I mentioned years ago that you're talking about now? < 1318403263 443228 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure, fair enough given our miscommunication earlier < 1318403413 553090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1318403467 862187 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: CakeProphet brought up Homestuck a while ago. More recently, he was talking about some tree thing. I offered to give him some help, intending to refer to his Homestuck confusion, and he thought I meant the tree stuff. < 1318403526 596168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just stop < 1318403574 191582 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will not obey HCF instructions < 1318403589 677950 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired, I need to be asleep 3 hours ago < 1318403594 565090 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have class early in the morning < 1318403596 527806 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroing < 1318403699 955497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle m (a -> b) -> a -> m b < 1318403700 372452 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b < 1318403700 648098 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b < 1318403700 794903 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b < 1318403706 545064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1318403722 561577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \x -> do f <- m; return (f x) < 1318403722 884548 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 16): < 1318403723 166213 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ";" < 1318403723 312894 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting letter or digit, variable, "(", "`", "!!", ".", operator or end of input < 1318403727 69669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?. pl undo \x -> do f <- m; return (f x) < 1318403727 386680 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(`fmap` m) . flip id < 1318403740 861869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1318403811 301314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle (a -> b) -> a -> f b < 1318403811 658323 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1318403811 936399 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude ($!) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1318403812 82966 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function ($) :: (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1318403821 136342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl (`fmap` return n) < 1318403821 373681 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(`fmap` return n) < 1318403823 398336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \n -> (`fmap` return n) < 1318403823 720577 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip fmap . return < 1318403901 294169 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: pl is a style nazi. < 1318403934 969787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?. pl undo do ac <- register accum; (v +) <$> peek ac >>= poke ac < 1318403935 360079 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ap ((>>=) . ((v +) <$>) . peek) poke =<< register accum < 1318403936 953808 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what are you doing right now. < 1318403938 382431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovely < 1318404037 153105 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :......what the fuck just happened. < 1318404040 26353 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my screen went to a the ubuntu startup debug message stuff < 1318404053 23176 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a lot of memory adddresses and stuff I could understand, and just stayed there for about a minute < 1318404062 891081 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :before coming back to X-stuff < 1318404075 57630 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*couldn't < 1318404107 914631 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Were your X programs still running? < 1318404125 933896 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, yes everything is fine now. < 1318404133 936665 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the time, no idea everything was frozen < 1318404140 705366 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the mouse was still visible and I could move it around. < 1318404144 348357 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. I _think_ I vaguely remember X randomly crashing on me in the past < 1318404153 635352 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that closed out all my X programs < 1318404167 86893 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling "X programs" is the wrong moniker < 1318404168 387230 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I couldn't switch ttys (I think that's the right term? what you do when you press ctrl+alt+fN) < 1318404187 67461 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: "TTYs" works. < 1318404255 814183 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there's a reason for running 6 TTYs by default when most users won't notice them < 1318404281 483246 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"historic reasons" < 1318404308 819473 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because people probably use them I'm sure. < 1318404317 137692 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you said "by default" < 1318404340 143690 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nothing but tradition. < 1318404360 711401 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's literally a handful of lines in /etc/inittab. < 1318404370 452024 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one per virtual terminal) < 1318404391 912598 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no /etc/inittab < 1318404413 714561 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, on Lubuntu 11.04 < 1318404416 915562 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1318404419 747287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Sgeo|web wonders if there's a reason for running 6 TTYs by default when most users won't notice them < 1318404429 253844 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereëver Ubuntu sticks its gettys, then. < 1318404429 450023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: If it doesn't notice them, does it bother them? < 1318404435 334218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: If they don't them, does it bother them? < 1318404437 688406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1318404440 101045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: If they don't notice them, does it bother them? < 1318404453 186415 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do they perhaps use resources? < 1318404458 896872 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minimal, to be sure, though < 1318404461 229993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Approximately 0 resources. < 1318404471 42921 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd estimate about a page per TTY. < 1318404472 449142 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pid blocked on an IO operation and... < 1318404474 957072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1318404493 696392 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're basically dealing with the bare minimum process overhead. < 1318404497 273847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A whole TWENTY FOUR KILOBYTES of waste :P < 1318404499 362171 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How small are pages? We're learning about pages in class, and apparently rule of thumb is disk sector size < 1318404505 448570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In total,. < 1318404507 958945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all the TTYs. < 1318404520 361875 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: The "page" is a CPU-dependent size. < 1318404525 945072 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In x86, a page is 4k. < 1318404539 929584 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they'd be useful in the event that X crashes and you need to do some Serious Shit. < 1318404544 241509 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, am I thinking of some other meaning of page? < 1318404546 306842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: They are useful. < 1318404557 373442 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I was under the impression page size could be defined by the OS < 1318404560 458435 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In x86-64, a page is 4k, 2M, or 1G. < 1318404561 41904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I use them. Other people assuredly much more. < 1318404569 454214 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, page size is defined by the MMU. < 1318404575 997578 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: why not just use a gnome-terminal or something similar? < 1318404580 303494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: ...which the OS can control. < 1318404594 991812 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-252-217.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It can't tell it to use arbitrary-sized pages. < 1318404603 592147 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, unless you're using multiple window managers. < 1318404606 18122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Always-accessible, full-screen, and most importantly, doesn't freeze up when something's lagging my X. < 1318404611 738313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which happens every few days. < 1318404617 59396 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1318404621 114827 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is very useful for "top" and "killall" especially. < 1318404629 777160 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're kind of a pain to use on my laptop as I have to press the fn key to use F keys. < 1318404639 10902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some people IRC from the consoles, but maybe they're not the type to run X in the first place. < 1318404642 949647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Me too, but meh. < 1318404645 654025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Well, no. < 1318404662 158577 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also I have no sysrq how do I shot reisub? < 1318404669 683353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You have a print screen key. < 1318404671 377115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sysrq. < 1318404684 299699 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reisub? < 1318404685 135989 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to work for that purpose but I'll try it right now. < 1318404691 888611 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good test I could do that won't like... kill my computer. < 1318404693 73139 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I recognize sub < 1318404696 408220 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what's rei for? < 1318404759 475775 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ei does sigterm and sigkill apparently < 1318404763 401053 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try m < 1318404773 283018 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r is something to do with XLATE, I have no idea what that is < 1318404795 718321 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep m works fine. < 1318404810 242921 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool I feel like a l33t h4x0r < 1318404824 206772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: steals keyboard back from x < 1318404832 793080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :reisub = safe hard reboot < 1318404833 684540 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that sounds quite useful. < 1318404837 496896 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does cleanup, syncs disks etc. < 1318404845 233092 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the r, I mean. < 1318404857 880567 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need to remember that one when x is being weird. < 1318404858 421245 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been using just sub for a while, is that really bad? < 1318404878 488743 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: I've been doing hard power-offs for years. so probably not. < 1318404947 702963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Well, any processes that have to do cleanup won't be allowed to. < 1318404953 270395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll just be slayed as the machine restarts. < 1318404967 508336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: BTW, you have to space out a few seconds between each letter. < 1318404977 747358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially for e → i; it takes a second or two to kill everything. < 1318404983 664702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for s → u. < 1318404995 864904 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I should probably slow down < 1318405018 736672 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing wrong with randomly doing s u is there? < 1318405024 216930 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reset the nice level of all high-priority and real-time tasks < 1318405026 6926 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is useful < 1318405029 165146 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of these are good things. < 1318405031 678740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Yes. < 1318405032 337186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots. < 1318405034 288017 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, out of boredom? If I don't care about stuff going to disk < 1318405035 936499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :u unmounts everything. < 1318405047 725609 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought it remounted in readonly < 1318405056 679716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, right. < 1318405060 997050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, that will break a lot of things. < 1318405064 460382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly don't do it "out of boredom". < 1318405067 293543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \x -> f <$> peek x >>= poke r < 1318405067 626811 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(poke r =<<) . (f <$>) . peek < 1318405070 873860 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey I bet that's what happened when my filesystem went readonly < 1318405076 473919 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I somehow accidentally did that. < 1318405081 799215 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... maybe not. < 1318405260 598457 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stands back and takes a moment to absorb the elegant beauty of his refactored code. < 1318405267 351971 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :now... time to run it and be horrified. < 1318405617 651620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/r/mspaint gets the weirdest shit. sometimes I wonder if I should just change the CSS to something completely fucked up and then ban people at random < 1318405623 257627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :blood will run through the streets < 1318405650 220430 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow people in #perl are talking about ways to reduce line noise < 1318405655 551154 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost like they don't want to program in perl. < 1318405704 984045 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you can change the CSS? < 1318405824 496619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: why wouldn't i be able to < 1318405831 24632 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use reddit < 1318405834 3662 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't know how that works. < 1318405846 651145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes < 1318405875 193010 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god help. < 1318405887 974936 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is internet hell. < 1318406113 826305 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = ( < 1318406115 495218 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1318406118 749048 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file < 1318406193 468967 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = \($t{x}, $t{y}); $x->{lol} = 2; $y->{rofl} = 3; Dumper(\%t);' < 1318406195 974876 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a HASH reference at -e line 1. < 1318406232 908591 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmm < 1318406254 203290 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = ($t{x}, $t{y}); $x->{lol} = 2; $y->{rofl} = 3; Dumper(\%t);' < 1318406256 389949 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318406264 195247 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = ($t{x}, $t{y}); $x->{lol} = 2; $y->{rofl} = 3; print Dumper(\%t);' < 1318406266 534825 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​$VAR1 = { \ 'a' => 2, \ 'b' => 3 \ }; < 1318406278 627672 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....how do I do this. < 1318406416 465759 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = \($t{x}, $t{y}); $$x->{lol} = 2; $$y->{rofl} = 3; print Dumper(\%t);' < 1318406418 547388 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​$VAR1 = { \ 'y' => { \ 'rofl' => 3 \ }, \ 'a' => 2, \ 'b' => 3, \ 'x' => { \ 'lol' => 2 \ } \ }; < 1318406422 738190 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, like that. < 1318406801 460791 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know you could put a \ in front of a list like that. < 1318406861 824065 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1318406871 612855 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's in perlref somewhere. < 1318406876 302785 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, yes. < 1318406889 799226 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Taking a reference to an enumerated list is not the same as using square brackets--instead it's the same as creating a list of references!" < 1318406892 28417 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :An ! and all. < 1318406913 699698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1318406917 161494 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've NEVER found a need for it. < 1318406926 930684 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :until now. < 1318406930 481921 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not a need. a use for it. < 1318407042 775748 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also doable like this, but noisier: < 1318407043 505750 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $Data::Dumper::Indent=0; my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = ($t{x}//={}, $t{y}//={}); $x->{lol} = 2; $y->{rofl} = 3; print Dumper(\%t);' < 1318407045 740529 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​$VAR1 = {'y' => {'rofl' => 3},'a' => 2,'b' => 3,'x' => {'lol' => 2}}; < 1318407169 228614 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I was thinking of something like that too. < 1318407174 557280 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a $$ is fine too though. < 1318407209 225782 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, or < 1318407211 737345 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $Data::Dumper::Indent=0; my %t=(a=>2, b=>3); my ($x, $y) = map {$_//={}} ($t{x}, $t{y}); $x->{lol} = 2; $y->{rofl} = 3; print Dumper(\%t);' < 1318407214 88274 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​$VAR1 = {'y' => {'rofl' => 3},'a' => 2,'b' => 3,'x' => {'lol' => 2}}; < 1318407219 424159 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god. < 1318407223 122716 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"map {$_//={}} ..." looks so pretty. < 1318407231 176201 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, sure. < 1318407274 378450 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just $_ = {}? < 1318407295 572952 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming sometimes there might be some existing hashes already. < 1318407302 378360 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1318407304 189095 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no. < 1318407396 396652 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may be a bit more efficient but I'm pretty sure this is IO bound. < 1318407650 733426 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1318408022 4666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the limit to the number of files in a directory on ext these days? < 1318408024 95905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fourth ext, that is. < 1318408050 336549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Relatedly, I don't suppose you've ever tried storing one of them reverse-context trees as a directory tree. < 1318408141 987744 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :madnir < 1318408211 793216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: What? < 1318408213 767036 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ridrum < 1318408246 987371 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: magicka reference... < 1318408292 122362 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reference to a cutscene in Magicka that references 300. < 1318408334 199913 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, though it certainly would be possible. Probably not very useful for the Funge code, though. (Is there even a directory-listing fingerprint? FILE doesn't do it, and neither does DIRF.) < 1318408336 442837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is madnir! < 1318408383 766182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, I wasn't talking in the context of Funge stuff. :p < 1318408391 16601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It would be possible, but it might also be slow. < 1318408401 801188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm thinking fragmentation might be an issue. < 1318408430 576361 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1318408523 94307 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-153-125.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318409062 314884 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318409410 393452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That remind you to restart the 'got? :-) < 1318409498 470707 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You answer that. < 1318409498 617513 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! < 1318409590 245214 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What style's it on? < 1318409655 976677 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :His own. < 1318409664 706217 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You like your own babbling, don't you? < 1318409664 852838 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, < 1318409713 623707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I wonder why it's so good. < 1318409756 27742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because fungot has been around long enough that it's effectively some kind of mix of all the data sets. < 1318409756 174300 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov < 1318409770 919239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weighted, too, since people probably aren't biased /that/ heavily against changing to the smaller data sets. < 1318409831 555480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs i'm so kind, even to assholes < 1318409853 977034 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19018 < 1318409895 585306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-04-16.txt:21:30:51: " AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes! AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes!" <-- wth? < 1318409895 731919 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: " so that the text i've checked gives the right definition of " spec" instead of with /foo...! just trying to understand, as mr martens said bucket sort... in bancstar < 1318409897 921516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good times, good times < 1318409928 110975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't suppose you represent start-of-line as ^. < 1318409937 232311 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discounting the non-babble, technically (and "probabilistically") speaking it is exactly an interpolated model with weights coming from the amount of text from each style. < 1318409941 341047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would explain the ". before the space" thing, since it's "^." in the dataset. < 1318409963 129160 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; I think the ^ is just filtered out, since it's not a punctuation I explicitly recognize. < 1318409965 719840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And yes, that's what I was getting at. (Of course I didn't know that it was true, but some sort of vague proof sketch formed in my head to justify it.) < 1318410030 17212 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"anmaster PCOLON PDOT i'm so kind PCOMMA even to assholes PEXCL anmaster PCOLON PDOT i'm so kind PCOMMA even to assholes PEXCL" < 1318410062 765951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't suppose it starts with the colon after the targeted user's nick? :-) < 1318410115 26997 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the raw; the first two tokens are stripped out by the "remove nick: stuff" operation I did. So it just starts with PDOT, and the spacing isn't equipped to deal with it. < 1318410122 958924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that he can ignore encodings for the n-grams → tree file stage of Project Gentry. < 1318410134 585856 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Project Gentry makes no sense as a name for the whole thing. < 1318410137 570378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for the tree-generation stage. < 1318410141 451278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Get it? Gentry? Gen tree?) < 1318410143 737248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ha ha ha.) < 1318410147 307986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Heh. < 1318410196 658059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Because it just deletes the last space so that you don't see "foo ." everywhere? < 1318410268 887309 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it just only adds spaces in front of "normal words" and some punctuation. It's the same reason those quotes are misspaced. It just writes "nick:" at start, and then starts concatenating tokens; a space is added in front of normal words, and "opening" punctuation (and smileys). < 1318410317 724397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1318410318 65089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1318410318 269749 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1318410319 246118 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "foo PODQUOT bar PCDQUOT" turns into [ foo][ "][ bar]["] -> [ foo " bar"]. < 1318410325 302794 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style fungot < 1318410325 449489 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself) < 1318410357 913469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's a diabolical incestuous slurry. HTH < 1318410365 273801 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow best style. < 1318410373 502255 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: when is the movie coming out? < 1318410373 648973 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ( ( ( a()**)a*:a*)(a()**)a*:a*)((x1)(x2)(x3)) ...out of time! don't let?! < 1318410383 260017 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1318410383 406764 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1318410383 553484 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: feedback plz < 1318410383 553710 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp < 1318410384 820329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It should really auto-add to the data set whenever it says a line. < 1318410392 338539 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Or better, whenever it says a line but only if the style is fungot. < 1318410392 541794 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i know i didn't know that you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote). you need just some 50 more metres and i'm home, and realised i forgot to take down what he actually checks < 1318410397 340309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one big ol' feedback loop. < 1318410427 675326 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The right side of the triangle lines in 153, 156-159 show the punctuation that do get a space. < 1318410445 92253 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it should just always add a line when it says something, but it should magically ignore commands (like ^style, etc) < 1318410555 262283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, this means the irc style is probably not auto-updated either... < 1318410571 673184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no shit < 1318410587 298583 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs moar fungot-log-daemon < 1318410587 510533 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: " so that the text that is needed when two sprites hit each, one character after the created statement, and c-intercal, except that the thing about genocide is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there < 1318410618 138484 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...lol < 1318410621 808021 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I laughed. out loud. < 1318410652 359522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Punctuation is plural? < 1318410675 574046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Also, I don't suppose there's anything particularly special about whatever format that VariKN thing uses? < 1318410684 237148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the treeez. < 1318410745 547148 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, uh... the VariKN output format is the ARPA standard n-gram model; there's a conversion script from that to the fungot format. < 1318410745 694180 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i know i didn't know that you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote). you need just some 50 more metres and i'm home, and realised i forgot to take down what he actually checks < 1318410797 652950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: There's a /standard/? < 1318410801 569793 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file format (IIRC) would make it reasonably easy to update existing weights on the fly, but adding new stuff in the middle would be trickier. It's a bit... packed, with lots of absolute offsets from start of file. < 1318410822 125635 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this is for my thing. < 1318410829 982196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm generating it all in one very, very long go. < 1318410839 79215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I need something that I can write out without fitting it all into RAM. < 1318410863 339315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since my model looks like "read in a few hundred megabytes, process, repeat", and it should have constant memory usage. :p < 1318410881 681468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, it can grow over the processing of the few hundred megabytes so long as it shrinks back down after that.) < 1318410893 503436 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how official the standard is, or where the ARPA part of the name comes from. But multiple pieces of software support it. < 1318410907 236231 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including the reasonably widely used SRILM toolki. < 1318410909 868748 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :t. < 1318410910 17652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does the interning thing, right? < 1318410929 104146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also is this thing just n-grams or is it the actual tree? < 1318410951 880570 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the ARPA format, that one just has ngram lists composed of text strings. < 1318410960 210923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1318410961 758966 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grouped by the order, and sorted. < 1318410981 205262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that the same format as the googlebooks data? < 1318410984 32766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :! ! ! ' It 2008 12 12 12 < 1318410984 179189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1318411057 537941 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite. < 1318411068 446197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1318411078 762048 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is there like a.... < 1318411086 422959 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqlite database viewer program thing? < 1318411171 691087 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm I found a firefox extension for it... < 1318411219 235404 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing, isn't that "2008" some sort of a year field? It obviously doesn't have that sort of stuff. < 1318411238 75396 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the 'grams of different order are in the same file, with few lines of headers. < 1318411250 6557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"'grams". Do you say that often? < 1318411272 90399 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like this: http://www-speech.sri.com/projects/srilm/manpages/ngram-format.5.html < 1318411281 883821 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The so-called ARPA (or Doug Paul) format --" < 1318411285 914684 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about the history. < 1318411314 172226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since log(0) (minus infinity) has no portable representation, such values are mapped to a large negative number. However, the designated dummy value (-99 in SRILM) is interpreted as log(0) when read back from file into memory." < 1318411317 198565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clean. < 1318411351 817286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to achieve a "streaming" design without an overly untight file format. < 1318411361 976554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really it would be very very convenient to use the filesystem, but I have a feeling that it would also be very very slow. < 1318411403 240540 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't think the VariKN toolkit handles larger-than-RAM models at all. (Datasets, sure; but probably not models.) < 1318411410 861573 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SRILM tools are slightly better w.r.t. that. < 1318411452 368213 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, ngram-merge can take several sorted-count files and merge them with constant memory use. < 1318411491 831869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I suppose ~terabyte models are not so very common. < 1318411507 93421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Whereby "model" I mean "reverse-context tree thingy".) < 1318411526 841187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except it's actually "reverse-context tree thingy with backwards entries".) < 1318411593 155795 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes; it's hard to actually *use* the model if it doesn't fit in RAM. (Incidentally, I haven't actually seen the reverse-context tree structure used anywhere except in fungot.) < 1318411593 302231 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: and, dab, words like pop-culture should just sell or give away all the monsters and hit points and other silliness yeti, is human fnord < 1318411668 234032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't see why that's true. < 1318411693 590006 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, s/hard/slow/. < 1318411696 931025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Look up context in typical B-tree-kinda structure, find next word, repeat. < 1318411700 973666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, maybe. < 1318411713 865294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aiming for one-second responses; maybe that's a bit optimistic with all the seeking. < 1318411715 837815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I do have an SSD. < 1318411794 505136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is laughing at my naïvety. < 1318411876 527407 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't know. It wasn't *terribly* slow with the Google ngrams in that Postgres DB plus some indexes, and that was not exactly a carefully optimized scenario. < 1318411894 745707 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :For babble-generation, anyway. < 1318411919 220741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How not-terribly-slow are we talking here? :p < 1318411987 467326 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some seconds (a single-digit number, anyway) per longish "sentence", I think. I don't quite recall. < 1318412057 890164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm not sure if I can beat the Postgres guys at the index-lookup game. < 1318412059 385327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I can. < 1318412086 172612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to wonder if interning mightn't hurt that, but then I realised that I can just load the interning table into memory. < 1318412191 7481 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not exactly sure what it did, either. Maybe just loop k = (N-1) .. 0 of "query for all (k+1)-grams with k words of context; if none found, continue; if some found, fetch them all and select next word programmatically" which is suboptimal in the sense that it actually loads all the matches in order to select a weighted-random one. < 1318412279 916870 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, I don't think SQL has a "just return a random tuple from the output set, using this column for the probability" thing the Postgres folks could've optimized based on the indexes. < 1318412358 131055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there aren't that many matches in general, are there? < 1318412365 833245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I suppose maybe "the" has quite a few words following it. < 1318412378 36812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess millions :-) < 1318412382 347024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well. < 1318412387 361143 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thousands I guess. < 1318412402 415779 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not when there are long-context matches, which I guess is the majority of cases. When it needs to back off to shorter context, then there could be quite many. < 1318412460 810867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. (Is there ever not a long-context match, really?) < 1318412607 122312 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if it'd need to back to 4-grams from 5-grams every now and then, since they've dropped all n-grams that occur <20 times or so. < 1318412652 616124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : group [1,5,2,7,23,8,2,4,7,2,43,7,21,1,7,87,2] < 1318414077 976386 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[1],[5],[2],[7],[23],[8],[2],[4],[7],[2],[43],[7],[21],[1],[7],[87],[2]] < 1318414084 875426 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...aww < 1318414088 475298 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not what I wanted. < 1318414092 498423 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot group works like that. < 1318414136 853012 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you want, (group . sort) or something? < 1318414142 402108 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1318414157 353783 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The good old ... | sort | uniq | ... pipeline formation. < 1318414185 235479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't uniq -u do that? < 1318414229 50931 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it just completely suppresses duplicates. < 1318414252 487948 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -e 'foo\nbar\nbar\nfoo' | uniq -u < 1318414254 965918 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo \ foo < 1318414259 942359 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> group . sort $ [1,5,2,7,23,8,2,4,7,2,43,7,21,1,7,87,2] < 1318414261 410031 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[1,1],[2,2,2,2],[4],[5],[7,7,7,7],[8],[21],[23],[43],[87]] < 1318414272 671540 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not technically an equivalence relation, but the same idea. < 1318414274 238967 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -e 'foo\nbar\nbar\nfoo' | sort | uniq -c < 1318414276 908553 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 bar \ 2 foo < 1318414282 422111 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs more ordered pairs... < 1318414298 637125 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I tend to be using "uniq -c" a lot more than plain "uniq". < 1318414299 523468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hmm, what does sort | uniq do as well, then? Apart from sort the output. < 1318414312 884562 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually removes duplicates for reals. < 1318414347 396935 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -e 'foo\nbar\nfoo\nbar' | uniq < 1318414349 457121 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo \ bar \ foo \ bar < 1318414350 160681 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -e 'foo\nbar\nfoo\nbar' | sort | uniq < 1318414352 599131 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar \ foo < 1318414416 217751 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess group . sort is the set of equivalence classes. < 1318414429 185706 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for integers anyways. < 1318414436 383064 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reals. < 1318414593 375604 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the relation (==), and speaking of multisets, maybe. < 1318414690 849197 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sleep 10; echo test < 1318414702 620295 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1318414734 2786 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sleep 86400; echo A NEW DAY DAWNS < 1318414753 619570 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :One wonders if it has a real-time-clock limit or just a CPU time limit. < 1318414760 113494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1318414762 288159 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you have to use some kind of equivalence relation to determine what makes elements "distinct"? < 1318414765 618816 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1318414767 8468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe real-time :P < 1318414774 5618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go. < 1318414775 205188 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo: You QUITTER. < 1318414792 626868 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Half a minute, maybe. < 1318414803 899022 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is there just some kind of magical distinctness to sets that has nothing to do with equivalence relations. < 1318414837 110662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: having the same elements < 1318414853 776530 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = b <=> forall x. (x in a <=> x in b) < 1318414877 589237 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sleep 28; echo foo; sleep 1; echo bar; sleep 1; echo baz; sleep 1; echo quux < 1318414897 778220 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er no I mean. < 1318414909 538767 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo \ bar < 1318414921 526827 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets can't contain "duplicate" elements. This has to be defined by some kind of equivalence relation right? < 1318414945 806989 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it just magic distinctness? < 1318414950 108914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: set theory is sets all the way down. < 1318414967 54183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan just told you how equality is defined on sets, by equality of elements < 1318414976 634535 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is that an answer? < 1318414981 805371 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1318414989 428060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's a flower. < 1318415037 263158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh there is leibnitz equality, applying to more than sets if there are such things: a = b <=> (forall P. P a <=> P b) < 1318415055 982536 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-t < 1318415062 414457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no t < 1318415063 948166 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1318415074 16361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz equality is pretty. < 1318415076 482195 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :however that's second order and so logically more complicated < 1318415083 287428 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so the distinctness of elements in a set is defined by... equality. < 1318415090 344233 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1318415101 31338 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :by.... set equality? < 1318415102 55687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: two sets are equal if their elements are equal. obviously the empty set is equal to itself. < 1318415108 200712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: the elements of a set are themselves sets. < 1318415112 259861 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :equality is the mother of all equivalence relations. < 1318415112 789954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is nothing that is not a set involved. < 1318415114 293971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the end < 1318415124 324181 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: help infinite recursion. < 1318415143 325181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :{{{}, {}}, {}} < 1318415145 465853 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: btw the axiom of extensionality basically says that the two definitions of equality i gave are the same for sets. < 1318415160 296877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : HELP ME I THINK EVERYTHING IN ANY WAY CIRCULAR IS _|_ < 1318415172 705848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sometimes I kind of wish you could define leibniz equality while excluding all Ps that reduce to trivial things like (b =) that make it boring :P < 1318415176 856629 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how it is formulated may depend on the underlying logic < 1318415187 148830 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh < 1318415198 611569 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn impredicativity eh? < 1318415228 717264 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:25 < elliott> {{{}, {}}, {}} -- was that supposed to answer some question? < 1318415251 561689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no, it wasn't a question, it was just you either trying to make a joke or literally just being beyond belief, I'm honestly not sure which < 1318415271 660522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you seriously think that sets only being able to contain other sets necessarily leads to some kind of nonsensical "infinite recursion" I honestly don't know what to say < 1318415298 699670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: while we're talking about equality, I don't think there's a Haskell term of type (Int ~ ()) => Void (without undefined or infinite loops etc. etc. etc.) :( < 1318415301 814297 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have to terminate at empty sets at some point, how does that work. < 1318415309 542852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: by "terminating" at an empty set < 1318415311 188092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : 06:25 < elliott> {{{}, {}}, {}} -- was that supposed to answer some question? < 1318415313 794403 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey look, there's an example < 1318415322 351265 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay but what about... things that don't look like that. < 1318415327 927394 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: sets are usually "well-founded" which means the recursion may be as deep as you want but _does_ bottom out on every path < 1318415329 964973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything looks like that < 1318415333 300084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the whole fucking point of set theory < 1318415340 670439 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, okay < 1318415343 247352 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 = {} < 1318415344 992746 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do numbers look? < 1318415345 471317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one = {{}} < 1318415347 115552 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reals? < 1318415354 123593 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi? < 1318415354 684074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two = {{}, {{}}} < 1318415370 150543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind_cut < 1318415378 894197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is one way. < 1318415414 943945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Emir Pasalic's PhD thesis, (end of section 4.2.2, page 80 in the PDF, 70 in print), he mentions that it is unknown whether the following type is inhabited: < 1318415415 110084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ a, b, c, d . Equal (a,b) (c,d) -> Equal a c < 1318415415 256819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where type equality is defined by Leibniz equality < 1318415415 257015 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Equal a b = Equal (∀ f . f a -> f b)" < 1318415416 844497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cooooooool < 1318415479 812105 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems to be a partition of an existing set. not "how to construct the real numbers out of sets" < 1318415493 902304 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: same thing < 1318415499 70926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it assumes prior knowledge of the rationals < 1318415504 499034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318415510 950132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: a real number is defined by those two partitions < 1318415528 621060 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay. < 1318415541 409099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to know how the rationals are made up of sets, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_number#Formal_construction < 1318415552 207944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for Z, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer#Construction < 1318415554 345832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturals i already showed < 1318415598 808261 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's only.... one real number between each rational? < 1318415613 387214 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds wrong. < 1318415621 196710 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. that does sound wrong. < 1318415645 859916 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since you'd like there to be at least _two_ things before you can be between them. < 1318415700 599003 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :If B has a smallest element among the rationals, the cut corresponds to that rational. Otherwise, that cut defines a unique irrational number which, loosely speaking, fills the "gap" between A and B. < 1318415705 233120 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to confirm what I said. < 1318415713 150430 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: if you divide _all_ the rationals into two unbounded intervals then there is exactly one real in the "gap". < 1318415789 72945 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that lead to uncountability? < 1318415829 34622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet oerjan never predicted that joining the esolang IRC would turn him into the grumpy, begrudging professor. < 1318415842 680274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: the number of sets of rationals is uncountable, for a start. < 1318415845 824021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I HAVE AVOIDED MY FATE ENTIRELY" -- oerjan, wrong < 1318415862 377733 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cantor's theorem, for any set) < 1318415880 156118 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course they're not all intervals. < 1318415970 396543 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the rest, see an actual uncountability proof. < 1318415986 474193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the reals) < 1318416037 590856 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's not the point of *all* set theory. < 1318416052 789588 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Set theories with things that aren't sets are perfectly valid. < 1318416053 580753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's the point of all the set theory we talk about in polite company < 1318416054 983039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. < 1318416058 471148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should be impolite company. < 1318416063 842755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, yes, certainly. < 1318416075 118254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But CakeProphet was rather implying that something mundane like a number can't "look like that". < 1318416096 73085 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all. < 1318416117 400988 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am simply someone who doesn't know things. and was confused. < 1318416146 587666 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good state to get things started < 1318416228 322790 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: okay so if you have two rationals such that no other rational lies between them. < 1318416243 499949 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only one irrational number between those two rationals? < 1318416274 668845 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sure numbers can look like that: http://hpaste.org/52514 < 1318416286 331255 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note how deeply nested that set is, by the way.) < 1318416286 607762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I like it. < 1318416294 112055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noted. < 1318416295 876519 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You don't have two rationals in there, you have two sets of rationals. < 1318416320 728055 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The linked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_numbers#Construction_by_Dedekind_cuts goes into more detail. < 1318416331 632396 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Than the plain Dedekind cut article.) < 1318416341 906633 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm, okay. < 1318416346 641214 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well-founded set theory is boring anyway. < 1318416347 67992 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: if a and b are distinct rationals, then (a+b)/2 is a rational between them. < 1318416374 269462 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no exceptions. < 1318416378 769303 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The reals are the complete ordered Archimedean field ARE YOU HAPPY NOW < 1318416391 869589 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But what if they're REALLY CLOSE? < 1318416400 655662 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Archimedean? < 1318416418 365482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Gotta give props to Mr. Archimedes. < 1318416420 353672 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: AS CLOSE AS THIS SWATTER? -----### < 1318416428 560262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's so.. Archimedean. < 1318416435 552162 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes I'm totally trying to warp mathematics into something I'm comfortable with < 1318416437 506452 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-36-216.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1318416438 6360 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-36-216.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1318416438 153091 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318416440 881146 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not trying to simply learn it. < 1318416458 810404 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Does there exit a complete ordered field that isn't Archimedean? < 1318416459 603996 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318416468 189972 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There might do. Only Archimedes knows. < 1318416471 532373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You wanna ask him? < 1318416473 112163 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nope. < 1318416477 431456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: There MIGHT do. < 1318416488 925995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your feeble mathematics is nothing in the face of Mr. Archimedes. < 1318416501 447828 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Observe the power of Maybe: < 1318416511 498247 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would archimedes know about non-archimedean things. < 1318416512 847615 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn Maybe nonarchimedeancompleteorderedfield < 1318416513 187592 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = Nothing < 1318416524 636198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn Maybe shachafscoolness < 1318416524 985218 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = Nothing < 1318416535 890958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "Fuck you" --Archimedes < 1318416544 278200 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn Maybe elliottspoint < 1318416544 709352 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = Nothing < 1318416552 647153 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: except he'd say it in greek. < 1318416564 213067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "No I wouldn't, fuck you" --Archimedes < 1318416570 814510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real quotes. < 1318416586 21583 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You mean that your '"' characters are genuine, right? < 1318416595 10604 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :very. < 1318416596 200745 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: what's inside them. < 1318416607 421831 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :genuine letters inside < 1318416640 976522 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reals are boring, anyway. < 1318416645 633704 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hyperreals are where it's at. < 1318416665 943216 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't you tell *that* to Mr. Archimedes. < 1318416692 769572 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid I don't understand Dedekind cuts at all. < 1318416700 416562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Archimedes says he doesn't give a shit. < 1318416706 558449 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Try your luck with Cauchy sequences. < 1318416725 649151 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: what elliott said. < 1318416758 727022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes Cauchy sequences more anyway, but that's I'm an FP loser. < 1318416772 957259 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wait does that mean i'm an FP loser too? < 1318416786 235505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I suppose your degree wasn't in formal logic. < 1318416794 256966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/that's/that's because/ < 1318416808 805015 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe even s/because/just because/. < 1318416812 28278 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dedekind cuts are where it's at. < 1318416817 942710 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys, can u give me some kickstart? i want the lambdabot to calc an array of for a certain function (lets have f(x) = x² e.g.) for certain range [-5;5] with a step of 1.. how can i do this? < 1318416834 766692 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and spit it out < 1318416838 325264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Computable Dedekind cuts are impossible to work with, though. < 1318416847 480733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent a whole day trying to make Coq talk about them. < 1318416855 601724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [x^2 | x <- [-5..5]] < 1318416856 487157 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [25,16,9,4,1,0,1,4,9,16,25] < 1318416857 350056 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"computable"? < 1318416863 429879 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The uncomputable numbers are where it's at. < 1318416868 192044 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no Cauchy sequences definitely make less sense. < 1318416870 687816 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx oerjan ..great! < 1318416878 253590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number#Formal_definition < 1318416886 636982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's literally the only place I've ever seen "computable Dedekind cuts". < 1318416902 294313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: warn him about floating point numbers with that, please < 1318416923 222279 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (^2) <$> [-5..5] -- LESS ANGULAR < 1318416924 45613 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [25,16,9,4,1,0,1,4,9,16,25] < 1318416924 785598 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: sheesh just go for infinite decimal expansion, then. but good luck proving that's a field :P < 1318416942 244835 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hi I would like to accurately represent real numbers in computer memory with arbitrary precision. < 1318416942 391435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: oh come on, cauchy sequences are easy < 1318416945 579528 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and how to change the step value? can i set function for it? < 1318416949 133381 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (^2).[-5..5] -- LESS ANGULAR < 1318416950 766236 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [25,16,9,4,1,0,1,4,9,16,25] < 1318416954 776576 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you have a sequence, it gets closer and closer to a point as you go further in it < 1318416961 620729 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [x^2 | x <- [-5, -4.5..5]] < 1318416962 448660 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [25.0,20.25,16.0,12.25,9.0,6.25,4.0,2.25,1.0,0.25,0.0,0.25,1.0,2.25,4.0,6.2... < 1318416968 90681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: umm, you are joking right? < 1318416975 578151 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: therefore: real numbers!? < 1318416981 830743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, therefore that < 1318416982 736933 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider < 1318416983 222755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :three < 1318416984 482901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :three point one < 1318416985 611302 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :three point one four < 1318416986 476451 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: note that there might be some rounding errors in the range < 1318416988 465103 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1318416989 979736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :three point one four i forget the next fucking digit < 1318416993 433136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that approaches pi < 1318417005 196245 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Real mathematicians memorize at least 30% of pi. < 1318417007 269547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore the sequence can be used to define pi, assuming it gets "closer enough" to pi quickly enough < 1318417015 808599 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like... computable. can you write how that works on paper. < 1318417023 443253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: THE REAL NUMBERS ARE NOT FUCKING COMPUTABLE < 1318417034 766468 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You don't need paper, you need a computer. That's why it's called "computable". < 1318417038 531113 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Some of them are! < 1318417042 955333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :_Almost all_ reals are uncomputable! < 1318417047 380172 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The boring ones are computable! < 1318417052 228739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :_Almost all_ of them can't even be fucking finitely named! < 1318417054 651463 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are not enough names for it! < 1318417062 953387 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: _Almost all_ computation is done by fucking. < 1318417064 575681 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Chaitin's omega is, like, my favourite real. < 1318417069 873682 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Is there any distinction between "compuable" and "nameable", or is that just for effect? < 1318417073 858056 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Almost all real numbers are copulating! < 1318417085 549074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There might be. You could have an uncomputable naming scheme. < 1318417089 202949 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, is *that* why there's so many of them? < 1318417096 989410 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or an unnameable computing scheme! < 1318417099 699087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the real → program computing it mapping is not very computable either. < 1318417108 841048 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, exactly. < 1318417125 509316 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the Fibonacci numbers. < 1318417125 978299 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so I get Cauchy sequences < 1318417137 536271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Anyway, yes, if you want to write down how it works on paper, see Wikipedia, which you didn't understand. < 1318417142 25464 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... not how that proves that reals can be constructed. < 1318417142 684870 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus why I attempted to simplify things. < 1318417158 932243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: This is not construction in the constructivist sense. (Or, well, only loosely.) < 1318417161 593838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's /defining/ the reals. < 1318417170 508973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cauchy sequences of rational numbers /are/ reals. < 1318417178 429171 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're a field, yadda yadda yadda. < 1318417185 957936 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, okay. < 1318417186 271945 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivism is where it's at. < 1318417189 134223 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finitist < 1318417201 114872 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't strings also define reals? < 1318417205 296331 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: well, you want to take the cauchy sequences modulo an equivalence relation. < 1318417209 943364 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: CakeProphet: sheesh just go for infinite decimal expansion, then. but good luck proving that's a field :P < 1318417210 467298 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possibly infinite < 1318417211 260751 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION could not help himself < 1318417242 926491 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay well < 1318417248 970133 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :these things are all far less exciting than I thought. < 1318417251 600977 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318417284 434126 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :math needs more hollywood guys. < 1318417291 706131 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=103 < 1318417293 189157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet was expecting a magician, a hat; a hand in the hat, pulled out, accompanied to the cry of "that's a real!"; the hand pulled out a bunny. < 1318417300 31721 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true mathematics. < 1318417323 379431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PART #esoteric :"BACK TO THE LAGOMORPHS!" < 1318417329 73494 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and THEN THE REAL NUMBERS CAUSE A BIG EXPLOSION AND MAKE OUT WITH A SEXY GIRL. Q.E.D." < 1318417329 403376 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it's like this, what you _really_ want is to construct some set model of a complete ordered field, and it doesn't really matter how you do it, and once you've done it you generally throw away the precise model used and just work with the complete ordered field axioms. < 1318417354 644018 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can prove that all complete ordered fields are isomorphic.) < 1318417370 279647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1318417373 288384 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sets are boring. Lists are where it's at. < 1318417376 758590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I liked that too when I saw it first. < 1318417388 720275 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not anymore, eh? < 1318417397 156486 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: all of this, of course, in the pursuit of defining other things just so that they you have it so that you can define other things, dot dot dot. < 1318417399 989900 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why elliott leaves and rejoins this channel once in a while. < 1318417400 233636 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :math is fun. < 1318417403 730503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the only bit of finitism that even remotely makes a nice tinkly sound when I hold it up to my ear. < 1318417415 657461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from one of Zeilberger's pieces that I can't dislike because it's just so silly. < 1318417421 290343 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I hope you don't believe in the law of excluded middle? < 1318417440 861430 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the proof of LEM from callCC, by the way? < 1318417447 676682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I just ask oerjan to exclude all my middles for me. And yes, I do. < 1318417455 601669 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: well once you have the complete ordered field, you can start making calculus properly. < 1318417471 48964 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, to infinity and beyond. < 1318417471 195859 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89921.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318417481 979133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you misspelled aleph null < 1318417483 643218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1318417508 182982 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think math tries too hard to prove itself. < 1318417512 314604 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You misspelt "misspelt". < 1318417517 687233 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just be itself and accept what other people think about it. < 1318417520 304327 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, א. < 1318417527 353940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Spelt yourself. < 1318417541 806703 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/just/should just/ < 1318417646 179305 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wait don't programs compute the digits of pi to infinity < 1318417651 537505 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that like.... computable? < 1318417656 876092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: kill me now < 1318417676 470181 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION spikes elliott's drink with cyanide < 1318417699 332943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: pi is a computable number, yes. < 1318417702 990731 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> last (show pi) < 1318417703 852183 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : '3' < 1318417705 341452 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1318417708 451173 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION published paper. < 1318417712 383441 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/d/s/ < 1318417718 794266 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh finite terminating algorithm nevermind..... < 1318417723 362203 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: lies. < 1318417724 185722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> last (show pi :: CReal) < 1318417724 960397 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `Data.Number.CReal.CReal' < 1318417725 250815 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against infe... < 1318417729 927285 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1318417734 307823 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> last (show (pi :: CReal)) < 1318417735 444522 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : '2' < 1318417741 313620 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg < 1318417743 32560 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> '2' == '3' < 1318417744 181322 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1318417746 831955 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies. < 1318417747 162605 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An inconsistency! < 1318417773 645651 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so computable is not depending on a finite number of steps < 1318417774 467137 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318417774 826685 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: are you familiar with the data/codata distinction? computable real numbers are codata in that sense. i think. < 1318417803 334347 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, nearly. < 1318417807 245144 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S THE SAME THING AS THE CODE/DATA DISTINCTION RIGHT? < 1318417842 851285 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318417843 509154 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not familiar with that < 1318417880 231284 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: a real number is computable if there is an algorithm which can calculate a given digit of it given its position as output. < 1318417887 488249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hmm, what if I generated eight hundred reverse-context trees, one per n-gram CSV file, and then merged them all? < 1318417895 709584 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh okay. < 1318417911 471736 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How's ghc going? < 1318417911 650476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That would allow me to use a packed representation, right? I suppose it just defers the hard problem to the merging step, but it could work one branch at a time, no? < 1318417913 988485 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :g ~ q < 1318417920 780243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I wrote like thirty lines of parser. < 1318417928 508785 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no. < 1318417938 541217 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now your design decisions will constrain Haskell programmers forever. < 1318417944 992978 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Can you get rid of "if" while you're at it? < 1318417948 343977 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as input < 1318417949 498879 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay so well THE REAL NUMBERS ARE NOT COMPUTABLE there is a way I can write out pi as an algorithmically generated Cauchy sequence. < 1318417953 87564 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/well/while < 1318417959 629695 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318417965 805236 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :44lppoksepok3poj2po2jp3ooj3rpo4pop4po4po4po4po44po4po4erpoelerw < 1318417966 500193 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, pi is computable. < 1318417969 979462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 is also a real number, and computable. < 1318417974 636808 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :cooooool < 1318417982 70892 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is the best aproximation of pi. < 1318417991 557692 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for defined number of digits < 1318418000 682945 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digits of 9 are even computable in constant time. < 1318418002 984677 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: _almost no_ real numbers are computable. the exceptions are a countable set. hth. < 1318418008 569941 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as oerjan mentiioned < 1318418027 155610 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: there are only countably many algorithms. < 1318418044 67339 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(every algorithm has a string representation in your favorite TC language) < 1318418079 834985 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION allows infinite programs. < 1318418087 615614 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote OlegFacts < 1318418087 891516 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OlegFacts says: Oleg's first datatype in haskell started like this: data ChuckNorris ... < 1318418090 454688 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ngevd excluded, i think his favorite language is Piet. < 1318418093 302638 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote OlegFacts < 1318418093 676620 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OlegFacts says: Oleg's first datatype in haskell started like this: data ChuckNorris ... < 1318418099 545281 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote OlegFacts < 1318418099 803006 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OlegFacts says: GHC doesn't have a type checker. It emails your types to Oleg for checking. < 1318418110 760672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is piet tc? :p < 1318418142 771447 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i calc differentials with lambda expressions? < 1318418188 405851 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no idea < 1318418191 417090 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way to have an infinite program would be to write an algorithm to generate it < 1318418199 687336 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a countable number of those. < 1318418238 29103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: well of course, they're TC. < 1318418278 69584 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, can you give me an example of the notation for lambdabot? < 1318418279 458493 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, it should be possible (even reasonably easy) to merge two reverse-context trees that are hueg. It's just a matter of generating the merged "next word" lists by summing up the duplicates (and the totals), and then generating subnodes for the union of subnodes of the sources. I don't think you will need to keep in memory more than 3*(N-1) nodes at once; maybe even just 3 if you like. (Assuming pairwise merging; source 1, source 2, destination.) < 1318418293 411533 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: it's likely you'll find you have to encode a CAS representation first. < 1318418331 223467 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: i thought you meant pure lambda calculus. also lambdabot's lambdas are typed, so not TC. (without other functions) < 1318418333 703341 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly you don't need even full nodes in memory; if the next-word lists and pointers to subnodes (or whatever) are sorted, you can merge them one by one. < 1318418345 486525 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (\x y -> x+y) 2 4 < 1318418346 424458 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 6 < 1318418361 406209 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's just a couple of offsets. < 1318418364 388054 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :computing is so constrained and countable. :( < 1318418373 777700 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Right. < 1318418385 161065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That sounds like a decent plan, then. < 1318418403 44590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Eight hundred runs of a gig at a time to produce a probably similarly-sized resulting tree, then one long merge job. < 1318418474 438775 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so recursion is basically just recursion + lazy evaluation? < 1318418482 976647 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1318418485 115977 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :corecursion < 1318418507 740773 :cheater!~cheater@ip-2-205-225-248.web.vodafone.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318418549 713567 :cheater!~cheater@ip-2-205-225-248.web.vodafone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1318418562 226486 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unlambda `.l`.a`.m`.b`.d`.a`.b`.o`.t`.'`.s`. `.u`.n`.l`.a`.m`.b`.d`.a`.s`.,`. `.o`.n`. `.t`.h`.e`. `.o`.t`.h`.e`.r`. `.h`.a`.n`.d`..`..`..v < 1318418562 607224 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...dnah rehto eht no ,sadbmalnu s'tobadbmal < 1318418566 772878 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs. < 1318418581 85514 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1318418627 997771 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unlambda ````````.t.r.y. .t.h.i.si < 1318418628 239794 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : try this < 1318418740 470274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: yeah, i think it only gets interesting once you want to restrict it to terminating computations < 1318418747 169085 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unlambda `````````````v.I./.O. .i.s. .s.t.u.p.i.d < 1318418747 507226 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Done. < 1318418758 50062 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can trees in Haskell be infinite? < 1318418763 233305 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wat < 1318418766 709066 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: sure < 1318418785 925820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no. < 1318418788 925498 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :only lists. < 1318418789 750263 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: the standard library ones may or may not be lazy, though < 1318418802 544943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lazy enough < 1318418804 491279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data.tree certainly is < 1318418808 184025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just (a,[Tree a]) < 1318418825 68062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Node < 1318418825 954966 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a -> Forest a -> Tree a < 1318418839 22126 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Tree = Mu [] < 1318418843 620165 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ok data Tree a = Node a (Forest a) where type Forest a = [Tree a] < 1318418861 243342 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Since when did trees need an 'a'? < 1318418865 213057 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The skeleton i what counts. < 1318418869 457861 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since data.tree :P < 1318418871 584722 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mu [] is the only true tree. < 1318418876 230420 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel this tree metaphor is collapsing... < 1318418893 357776 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree branches lead to forests? help. < 1318418899 194365 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :B-trees are the only trees that count. < 1318418899 749629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph, making this program do something made my projected runtime for phase I shoot from two to four hours < 1318418902 317252 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :leafs < 1318418907 834589 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not? < 1318418912 814523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let tree = Node 1 tree tree in tree < 1318418913 655724 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `Data.Tree.Forest t < 1318418913 951522 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1318418921 36734 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1318418936 938165 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let tree = Node 1 (repeat tree) in tree < 1318418937 753115 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Node {rootLabel = 1, subForest = [Node {rootLabel = 1, subForest = [Node {r... < 1318418945 686264 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hah, wrong again! < 1318418954 535724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ^ infinite < 1318418954 719414 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Alternative plan: If you don't mind having your packed format being a regular trie (it's likely to be equally fast except for the cases where you need to backoff to shorter context), you can easily (f.s.v.o.) build it directly from the count files, since they're already sorted and thus come in the right order for tree-building. (Just keep a bit of state so that you can update totals and offsets. And you might end up with a bit dispersed nodes if you do < 1318418954 866014 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :n't want to count the number of subnodes in advance.) < 1318418964 896915 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let tree = Node 1 [tree] in tree -- Infinite tree. < 1318418965 812937 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Node {rootLabel = 1, subForest = [Node {rootLabel = 1, subForest = [Node {r... < 1318418978 797966 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah okay. But you can't have infinite maps can you? < 1318418986 732655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: data.map is finite < 1318418989 311027 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they have to balance and stuff. < 1318418989 838858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: for infinite maps, see (->) < 1318419013 106496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: There's also the problem that I need to store /two/ sets of "what's up next". < 1318419018 671599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: For going forwards and for going backwards. < 1318419064 599502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose one could make an argument that since most English doesn't make any sense going backwards there'll be very little structural overlap and I might as well just have two different files and not lose that much on size. < 1318419073 608615 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: there are tries which can be infinite < 1318419079 720073 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean the enumerator elliott? < 1318419082 724003 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already forgot what that was all about and why you wanted the backwards thing. < 1318419086 801338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318419094 849000 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :k i guess not < 1318419105 170793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So you can go from "this word in the middle of the sentence" back to the start of a sentence, as well as forwards to the end. < 1318419111 170336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: MegaHAL does it. < 1318419215 514418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I am kind of convincing myself with this "English doesn't make any sense backwards anyway" tack, though. < 1318419244 399977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: (i.e. it won't buy me much) < 1318419263 433753 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: .so or yesterday before day the AI-complete became MindForth because, anyway point moot a all it's but, Okay < 1318419278 881705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, it did? < 1318419329 925099 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mindforth.txt < 1318419330 109338 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday was able to comprehend both < 1318419330 109551 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :declarative and negational sentences. < 1318419330 109657 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It handled both transitive verbs and intransitive < 1318419330 109768 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :verbs of being. It stored ideas in its knowledge base < 1318419330 924721 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and remembered them in subsequent conversation." < 1318419340 757192 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it was already on Sunday, it seems. < 1318419358 685666 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, there's no example session attached. < 1318419371 341771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> break (=='a') "xxaxx" < 1318419372 210939 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("xx","axx") < 1318419382 294417 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> breakEnd (=='a') "qqaqq" < 1318419383 207047 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `breakEnd' < 1318419391 570665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> span (=='a') "qqaqq" < 1318419392 423153 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("","qqaqq") < 1318419396 234773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmph. < 1318419399 83326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> span (/='a') "qqaqq" < 1318419399 892619 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("qq","aqq") < 1318419409 14356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hey, how do I omit the a < 1318419427 529581 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :second (drop 1) < 1318419430 933784 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> second (drop 1) . span (/='a') $ "qqaqq" < 1318419432 860242 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("qq","qq") < 1318419433 7121 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89921.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318419448 171906 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: !enses sekam oot ti < 1318419449 329558 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> words "a " < 1318419450 121471 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["a"] < 1318419454 930200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, hmm < 1318419456 659212 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better question < 1318419461 4990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I get the 'a' in the first list < 1318419468 376149 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't. < 1318419477 101673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want to. < 1318419492 496121 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't. < 1318419499 626521 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Data.List.Split has something? < 1318419505 866559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bytestrings. :p < 1318419518 399014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically what I want is already provided by split, but I am micro-optimising. < 1318419522 648459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For good reason, at least. < 1318419529 440406 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ByteStrings! < 1318419549 852934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope this is a prelude to you solving my problem. < 1318419555 178143 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, just unsafely add 1 to the size of the left pointer and subtract 1 from the size of the right pointer. < 1318419559 849512 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And add 1 to the position. < 1318419581 130741 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that. < 1318419602 203644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1318419608 241226 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who really cares, it all tends to work out somehow. < 1318419620 656160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines :: ByteString -> [ByteString] < 1318419620 939701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines ps < 1318419621 86536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : | null ps = [] < 1318419621 86719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : | otherwise = case search ps of < 1318419621 86829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nothing -> [ps] < 1318419621 416080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just n -> take n ps : lines (drop (n+1) ps) < 1318419623 234538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : where search = elemIndex '\n' < 1318419634 124014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly a memchr-hexadecimal-lotsofstrictness-unsafeperformio version of this was no faster. < 1318419637 425433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who'da thunk it. < 1318419647 82472 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hexadecimal"? < 1318419650 972118 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that makes code faster? < 1318419666 651893 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had no idea. < 1318419679 393453 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to rewrite all my code. < 1318419693 423841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318419701 272873 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "AAAA" < 1318419702 210890 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "AAAA" < 1318419704 453401 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "\x41\x41\x41\x41" < 1318419705 361960 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "AAAA" < 1318419710 304467 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was *way* faster. Wow. < 1318419760 236523 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION >>= < 1318419819 119222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, now it's twice as fast. < 1318419849 807792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it will only take 2.22222222 hours. Also, I haven't actually started generating a tree yet. < 1318419867 928926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ooh, I have an idea. < 1318419881 294161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What if I used a reverse-context tree forwards, but a /normal/ context tree backwards? < 1318419897 137543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Then, I'd benefit from structural sharing so long as reversed English has a lot of structural similarities to English in reverse. < 1318419901 959012 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out it does! < 1318419914 682055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so backoff would be less efficient backwards, but. < 1318420066 795006 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds potentially doable; can't really guess how much it saves, though. You'd still need separate "(next word, frequency)" lists for the two directions in each node. < 1318420137 315533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, yes, but it was more about turning the number of contexts that appear in both corpuses from "few of them" to "literally all of them". < 1318420152 535322 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that all the tree-y overhead is completely deduplicateiiveiteitjeieivhteed. < 1318420157 185349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that was almost Finnish. < 1318420173 498046 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appilan pappilan apupapin papupata. < 1318420178 520878 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That is Finnish.) < 1318420234 685455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hokay, I think I've reduced this problem to one that can be done with Haskell on this little MacBook Air overnight. < 1318420239 141482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps even... in the background. < 1318420272 783051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I just have to come up with a Haskell representation of the actual tree thing that isn't ridiculously wasteful. < 1318420326 641246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmz, I wonder how to do the intern table thing like this. < 1318420341 675118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should download the one-grams to write an intern-table-producing thing. < 1318420346 655206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, hmm. < 1318420366 968957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Reassure me that the likelihood of any of the words appearing in the one-gram list being filtered out of the five-grams is sufficiently low to not care. < 1318420370 353293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1318420491 25896 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, well... I think it's quite likely that a large number of unigrams that "barely" make it (are very close to the <40 filtering point) -- which is the majority, Zipf and all that -- will never occur in the 5-gram files, since they would pretty much have to occur in only one four-word context to make it in that file. < 1318420532 105498 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can reassure you that all words in the 5-grams do occur in the unigram files, though, if that's what you want to hear instead. < 1318420574 766468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, I just don't want to generate an intern table with a bunch of pointless words. < 1318420586 663363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I really just have to filter every word in the five-gram set through uniq? < 1318420590 837767 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'll take aaaaaaaages. < 1318420597 408800 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just that, you need to sort them first. < 1318420606 977666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOooOOOOooOOOOooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo < 1318420619 12864 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unless by "uniq" you mean something that actually keeps all the words it has seen in memory. < 1318420643 482009 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many unigrams did they retain, anyway? < 1318420653 10634 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 files' worth. < 1318420674 599166 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't suppose you have a premade way of doing this that doesn't involve me buying eight hundred gigabytes of RAM to let sort eat. < 1318420729 918172 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are premade merge-sort-based on-disk sorters. < 1318420762 898049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I shouldn't need that much RAM. < 1318420765 494356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just enough RAM for each word. < 1318420776 908270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait, sort actually won't use more than that, will it... < 1318420792 512359 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort will; a more sensible sort of uniq wouldn't. < 1318420795 540957 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it so that those datafiles have one line for each year or something? < 1318420809 156692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ? < 1318420832 92078 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As an example, here are the 30,000,000th and 30,000,001st lines from file 0 of the English 1-grams (googlebooks-eng-all-1gram-20090715-0.csv.zip): < 1318420832 238928 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : circumvallate 1978 313 215 85 < 1318420832 239141 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : circumvallate 1979 183 147 77" < 1318420834 834839 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently so. < 1318420855 838390 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you want to retain the yearliness stuff? < 1318420866 122334 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Not really. At least not now. < 1318420869 45524 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want an intern table. : < 1318420869 252180 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :p < 1318420982 130814 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single-pass through all the data summing up that stuff (so you'd end up with just "circumvallate {313+183}" and so on) would probably cut the (uncompressed) data size to one twentieth of the originals, or less. But then you'd lose the years. < 1318421042 59233 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the files aren't "totally" sorted anyway. < 1318421045 238488 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Inside each file the ngrams are sorted alphabetically and then chronologically. Note that the files themselves aren't ordered with respect to one another. A French two word phrase starting with 'm' will be in the middle of one of the French 2gram files, but there's no way to know which without checking them all." < 1318421072 808849 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit funny. < 1318421113 843393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not sure the relevance this has to MY PRECIOUS INTERN TABLE < 1318421136 404545 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have much. < 1318421189 681511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, ehhm, I sure hope sort will only use like three gigs of ram, not eight hundred. < 1318421193 36959 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be a nice thing for sort to do. < 1318421203 995096 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds unlikely for sort to do. < 1318421204 202662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Oh uh yeah < 1318421209 485623 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Really? < 1318421218 404306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: How big are the one-gram files in total, uncompressed < 1318421231 957911 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you know, it has to read all the data in memory to sort it, just in case the last line would be the first. < 1318421250 697351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1318421256 855205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a sort that doesn't bother sorting? :p < 1318421283 973392 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want an integrated "sort | uniq" thing; I'm not sure there's a pre-made one, but it's not very many lines of Haskell/Perl/Python/whatever. < 1318421294 76392 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually how come uniq doesn't support just, you know, keeping track of lines it outputs so that it doesn't output them again? < 1318421307 583149 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 5-gms probably don't have such a huge vocabulary you'd need to have it well-optimized. < 1318421313 717456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I need a scathing internship-related political pun, since I have gentry. < 1318421333 327060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You seem to be constantly implying I should look at another data set. :p < 1318421358 791108 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was just a "it's probably safe to use a thing that keeps all the words in memory" implication. < 1318421372 470223 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be too surprised if you had only a hundred thousand or so words there. < 1318421387 82060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, it's just all this depressing talk about small vocabularies. < 1318421412 601910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm half-tempted to just generate eight hundred intern tables (one in each gen'd tree) and somehow merge them together in one go. < 1318421417 522879 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably a terrible idea though. < 1318421420 578693 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not "small" in an absolute sense, just compared to very large numbers. < 1318421433 937931 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, they don't report the type (unique unigram) counts, just the token counts, in the "total counts" files. < 1318421519 59459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, if I know which tree each token came from... < 1318421548 955404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, it is probably faster to simply generate an intern table upfront and have gentry use that. < 1318421601 693155 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would. They'd overlap a lot, and if each tree had its own, you'd need to remap all the numbers. (Or keep large remappings from the per-tree indices to "global" indices.) < 1318421608 89995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1318421737 934736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That has the annoying side-effect of wanting the data files up-front, but I suppose I can just use my test one. < 1318421775 245698 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extrapolating from the first 5-gm file, removing the per-year information would cut the unpacked data size down to 1/49th of the original size. < 1318421805 167198 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It has 30610909 lines, but only 622735 5-grams.) < 1318421817 316707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to bust out THE DATA.HASHSETS. < 1318421821 964713 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Wow. < 1318421840 377162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh well, no harm just folding those up at gentry-time. < 1318421862 37900 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the dick space usage. < 1318421903 119910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, erm, it's only eight gigs, innit? < 1318421937 174071 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't counted. < 1318421947 855900 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eight hundred times one hundred megs. < 1318421952 69864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roughly. < 1318421956 355904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hmm. < 1318421958 989051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's compressed. < 1318421962 445435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, < 1318421966 256843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-rw-r-- 1 elliott elliott 113M 2011-10-12 09:56 googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-478.csv.zip < 1318421982 109006 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :800 times that is 80 gigs, not 8. Approximately. < 1318421989 280586 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unpacked, it's about a gigabyte per file. < 1318421994 561905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1318422001 941323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can store it compressed mostly. < 1318422006 576777 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how the fuck am I going to download this shit? < 1318422009 552568 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can unpack on-the-fly. < 1318422033 84013 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ tail -n 5 googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0.csv < 1318422033 230943 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :• • • . ; 2002 2 2 2 < 1318422033 231150 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :• • • . ; 2003 4 4 4 < 1318422033 231259 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :• • • . ; 2005 1 1 1 < 1318422033 231363 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :• • • . ; 2006 3 3 3 < 1318422033 623960 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :• • • . ; 2008 1 1 1 < 1318422036 583113 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bestest data ever. < 1318422037 513179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's indeed eighty gigabytes. < 1318422050 89731 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So... those CDs :P < 1318422053 613530 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, DVDs :P < 1318422075 665484 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have them physically either, and I'm pretty sure they're covered by a License(tm). < 1318422133 156543 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That set is just 25G; probably mostly thanks to the fact that the Internet doesn't have year (or page/book count) information. < 1318422162 350542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I take it filtering out the page/year/etc. data wouldn't save much disk? < 1318422170 299506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess I'll write a smallification thing.) < 1318422178 936583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although no wait, I need to figure out how I'm downloading eighty gigabytes first. < 1318422179 464110 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1318422187 49486 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the uncompressed copy, it should save quite a lot; compressed, maybe not so much. < 1318422209 738383 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still quite a lot, perhaps. < 1318422225 31285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but then I realised that I have eighty gigs -- uh, I should check -- < 1318422228 946285 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/sda5 134G 14G 114G 11% / < 1318422229 703990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1318422236 714480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So bandwidth is a rather larger problem. :p < 1318422457 973493 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But size is time*bandwidth, and time goes up to infinity. < 1318422498 243254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deep < 1318422499 264960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1318422515 50693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, I am dangerously close to having: A Library. < 1318422519 656693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, there is this one data-type. < 1318422521 362254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I want to < 1318422522 19510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :reuse it < 1318422536 767356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just write a quick Perl thing. < 1318422539 55269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would stifle me. < 1318422550 682473 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.2 billion 5-grams in web-data; approximately 0.5 in the books, extrapolating again from the first file. So they're around the same order of magnitude. < 1318422612 579805 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-rw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 6168093 2011-10-12 15:29 googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0-NOYEAR.zip < 1318422612 765002 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-rw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 117898565 2011-10-12 15:29 googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0.zip < 1318422619 256878 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how much you save in compressed-file size. < 1318422651 724661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t foldl < 1318422652 607285 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a < 1318422655 532786 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, you can't download the stripped-down files. :p < 1318422670 969670 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/19th, apparently. < 1318422770 989247 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if you add an "Accept: application/zip;note=dropthatstupidyearstuff" header to your GET request it'll send the smaller file. < 1318422913 911835 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was about the ugliest: ... | perl -ne '($g, $y, $f) = split /\t/; if ($cg and $g ne $cg) { print "$cg\t$cf\n"; $cf=0; } $cg=$g; $cf+=$f; END { print "$cg\t$cf\n"; }' > ... < 1318422939 881336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What is that even? < 1318422945 475705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, is that year-merging? Yikes. < 1318422953 723211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey why is this intern thing taking so slowly for one file, this is unacceptable. < 1318422978 350439 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was year-merging, yes. < 1318423125 263556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may need a faster computer. < 1318423140 977193 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :92640 words in googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0-NOYEAR.csv. < 1318423148 56121 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cat googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0-NOYEAR.csv | perl -ne '($g) = split /\t/; $v{$_} = 1 for split " ", $g; END { print join("\n", sort keys %v), "\n"; }' | wc -l < 1318423150 224009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How long did that take you? < 1318423151 525201 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is the bestest. < 1318423155 77563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1318423155 795042 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to run < 1318423157 765852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because this is slow. < 1318423185 604489 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.9 seconds; but I ran on the no-years file. < 1318423204 943367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Mine's been running for like a minute. What givez? < 1318423206 609701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there it goes. < 1318423210 617170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 1m31.514s < 1318423214 759152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll try plain old Set. < 1318423240 621808 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extrapolating, it should have taken pretty much exactly that long for the Perl script on the yearful datafile. < 1318423248 645746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1318423251 120279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough then. < 1318423269 524650 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How long did year-smushing take? < 1318423296 525885 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll time it if it's still in the readline command history. Maybe a minute, though. < 1318423334 320314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'll get similar savings on gentrying, that obviously pays off. :p < 1318423348 151926 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1m13.951s for the above word-counting for the yearfuls. < 1318423355 707651 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I meant < 1318423361 298433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How long did it take to convert yearfiles → noyearfiles < 1318423372 224454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god, "monads" is actually one the second-last line of what my script printed out for that. < 1318423373 749262 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I just had that time already running. < 1318423380 365612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hash-based, so complete coincidence. < 1318423393 572431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm, uhh, becoming somewhat sceptical that I'll be able to gentry a single gigabyte file in the twenty seconds I want. < 1318423432 302408 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0m51.402s to smoosh years out with the above-the-above snippet. < 1318423459 810290 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rightes. < 1318423494 964244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should really be an < 1318423506 546184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a -> HashSet a -> Maybe (HashSet a) operation. < 1318423516 142433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing if it's already there, Just hs' if it wasn't, where hs' has it inserted. < 1318423534 18881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can handle the "it's probably already an element, but if it's not, then insert it while you're there" behaviour. < 1318423593 509758 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably go that way, unless you actually are going to use the year data at some point; the uncompressed no-years file is 17M; the compressed with-years file is 113M. So you could keep everything uncompressed (that's one less hassle), and still use "only" ~13.6 GB vs. 90 GB. < 1318423593 873492 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1318423656 195349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :17M??? < 1318423661 217778 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ridiculous. < 1318423669 877076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, OK, I'll write a year-smuher. < 1318423671 522980 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :smusher. < 1318423717 822822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Wow, your script totally fails to handle, e.g. scrambling all the lines in the file. < 1318423749 548068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is tempted to try writing it in awk. < 1318423762 612735 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly, but that's just because they said it's sorted. < 1318423769 82427 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It throws out the page/book counts too. < 1318423795 717492 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could theoretically sum those up, but I'm unsure what they are good for. < 1318423846 480750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Mightn't it be rather more efficient to do the interning with the degrading? (My totally fancy name for year-smushing.) < 1318423861 628693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, OK, they're unrelated operations, but interning is pretty simple, and it saves some overhead :P < 1318423871 244420 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it could be done at the same time. < 1318423889 476869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I mean... the main problem is that one minute times eight hundred files equals 13 hours. < 1318423912 201603 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kind of impatient; eighteen hours is the kind of computational budget I'd like to give this ridiculousness as a whole. < 1318423929 900930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably totally infeasible though. < 1318423938 311566 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 13 hours distributed over let's say 36 cores is just 22 minutes. < 1318423951 75626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're donating me cluster time? :P < 1318423966 330235 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nnnnno, but, uh... you can buy some from the cloud, I'm sure. < 1318423991 833034 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I suppose year-smushing is so intensely IO-bound that I could run ten at once and have them complete in about the same time. < 1318424037 817322 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's certainly not much computation going on there, that's for sure. < 1318424066 148392 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really sure what the number I should use for completely IO-bound things like that. < 1318424073 854645 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ten processes at once? A hundred?? EXACTLY EIGHT HUNDRED?? < 1318424132 388292 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, those files seem to have something silly when it comes to double-quotes. At least based on really quick sampling. < 1318424192 297130 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ tail -n +39991 googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0.csv | head -n 4 < 1318424192 443762 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :""" 2003 1 1 1 < 1318424192 443862 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :""" 2006 4 4 4 < 1318424192 443905 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :""" 1822 1 1 1 < 1318424192 443946 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :""" 1856 2 2 2 < 1318424202 577090 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that doesn't really look all that 5-grammy. < 1318424224 876319 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ tail -n +30000 googlebooks-eng-all-5gram-20090715-0.csv | head -n 1 < 1318424225 22861 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :""" "" Was anybody else" 1928 1 1 1 < 1318424232 667178 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not exactly sure what's going on there either. < 1318424282 38618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : """ 2003 1 1 1 < 1318424284 903102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're empty words. < 1318424292 79276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, """ at the end of a book or something. < 1318424314 317442 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter might be the "standard" CSV quoting rule; """ "" Was anybody else" => [" " Was anybody else]. < 1318424343 368865 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the former doesn't even have 5 words in it. < 1318424360 261633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not csv files. < 1318424362 349157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even Google admits that. < 1318424376 736395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"File format: Each of the numbered files below is zipped tab-separated data. (Yes, we know the files have .csv extensions.)" < 1318424416 480348 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds unlikely that a book would actually contain ["""] [""] [Was] [anybody] [else"] very often. But of course it's possible. < 1318424439 74135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, fair enough. There's nothing about escaping on http://books.google.com/ngrams/datasets, though. < 1318424443 738224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Also it's only one result. < 1318424467 975311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And they say older books have OCR issues, so... < 1318424488 16979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. occurrences of "internet" before the term's invention because of OCR mistakes) < 1318424525 193916 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe, then. But """ doesn't even have 5 words; an X at the end of a book is not supposed to create any sort of "X " 5-gram, usually. < 1318424566 814470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, it could always be """ followed by lots of spaces... < 1318424612 831650 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they say it's alphabetically sorted, but the (no-year, 0) file starts with: < 1318424619 147116 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :! ! ! Is there 44 < 1318424619 293801 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :! ! ! Where is 74 < 1318424619 294330 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"! ! "" The two" 103 < 1318424619 294399 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"! "" "" As in" 68 < 1318424620 259294 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1318424627 654113 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"! "" yelled someone in" 104 < 1318424627 800817 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"! ' "" ) The" 40 < 1318424627 800982 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :! ' ' Get off 46 < 1318424627 802040 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :! ' ' Stop ! 121 < 1318424630 468824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks alphabetical to me. < 1318424633 202219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hmm. < 1318424647 861765 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, you know. I'd be surprised if there wasn't any fucked-upness. < 1318424658 615693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can: read: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6014/176 if you want to know how they generated it. < 1318424703 167516 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just slightly borksored. < 1318424748 97846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, hmmm. < 1318424756 152895 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :All "sensible-looking" instances of " I've found seem to have that CSV-style "..."-around-the-whole-field where inner doublequotes have been doubled; most of the other stuff is some sort of nonsense that starts with a " but then doesn't contain enough words. < 1318424766 935669 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not entirely sure what my strategy is. < 1318424790 480194 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"! ) 1847 1 1 1 < 1318424792 419177 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like that. < 1318424795 599923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Degrade → intern → gentry → merge is all very reasonable, but now I'm stuck trying to figure out what my perceived issue was. < 1318424801 850097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Quoting errors? :P < 1318424812 112544 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it tried to run some dollar sign (...) as bash. < 1318424819 692689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it just errored out, but stderr was eaten. < 1318424825 25808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why you don't do this kind of stuff with bash. < 1318424957 653206 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1318425111 474340 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think someone's screwed up there; just funny that no-one has fixed it since the 2009 releasification of it. < 1318425132 332189 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/google-ngram-stripper/ "The corpus is full of uncorrected OCR errors and has a suspicious number of quote marks, and a number of other issues --" < 1318425138 384982 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too much complaining going on either. < 1318425181 963932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Eurgh, does that do anything non-trivial? < 1318425187 300876 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not. < 1318425189 601815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In practice, 5-grams require a 3TB hard disk and 20GB+ of memory (swap memory works but is so slow it's pointless. I'm rewriting the script now)" < 1318425191 906898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1318425219 422404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.manythings.org/wordfrequency/ < 1318425221 397783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmmmmm. < 1318425240 152836 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/google-ngram-stripper/source/list < 1318425242 635163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems rather recent. < 1318425254 376787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, dear god: http://code.google.com/p/google-ngram-stripper/source/browse/trunk/google-ngram-stripper.py < 1318425286 419404 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gggg. < 1318425345 788715 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :def combinecapitalsandapplythreshold(): < 1318425350 919037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : filteryearandalphabetise() < 1318425353 356592 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literate programming. < 1318425356 272231 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : finalfilename = "FINAL RESULTS SINCE" + str(earliestyear)+"THRESHOLD"+str(threshold)+".txt" < 1318425356 419129 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : resultsfile = open(finalfilename, 'a') < 1318425362 372453 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the bestest thing since sliced bread. < 1318425362 519065 :kmc_!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318425918 889365 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318426224 580942 :hagb4rd2!~perdito@koln-4db41f86.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318426260 583597 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db4f437.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318426342 150980 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318426452 755075 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :bread[i:j] < 1318426611 525862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of 3G data bandwidth do people get "in the wild"? Outside of countries designed solely for good mobile reception like Finland, that is. < 1318427123 559365 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1318427181 811454 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1318427210 178154 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-155-174.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318427211 88226 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-145-251.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318427513 717148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318427661 878527 :kmc_!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net NICK :kmc < 1318427923 528302 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure we get very fast 3G in Finland either. In the Helsinki/Espoo/Vantaa area, apparently 3.5-6 Mbps, depending on the operator, according to some presumed-to-be-disinterested third party. < 1318428155 557288 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318428172 983242 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:58:43: I'm not sure we get very fast 3G in Finland either. In the Helsinki/Espoo/Vantaa area, apparently 3.5-6 Mbps, depending on the operator, according to some presumed-to-be-disinterested third party. < 1318428183 795628 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, yes, I just bet it's slower over here, is all. :P < 1318428313 324935 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't know, my mobile interwebs are 384 kbps as per the contract. < 1318428323 972303 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I think it was that. < 1318428353 209612 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My conclusion is that Gregor has probably accidentally come up with something incredibly useful. < 1318428361 311650 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, indirectly :P < 1318429096 277624 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1318430598 821050 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318430864 590106 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1318431561 701562 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318431745 777365 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello lambdabot. < 1318431746 50744 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1318432700 855006 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318432739 910947 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318432786 557249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1318432834 190739 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was turning out to be such a nice day. < 1318433436 986979 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BILLING SUMMARY < 1318433437 173177 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------- < 1318433437 173369 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRIOR BALANCE: $-10.67 < 1318433438 634832 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------- < 1318433440 617010 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEW BALANCE: $-10.67 < 1318433442 593179 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* negative amounts are credits < 1318433445 394881 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how I can express to Slicehost that I just don't care about these bills any more. < 1318433513 311647 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dood, $10.67 is like one slicehost T-shirt. < 1318433537 17394 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most common currency. < 1318433566 618367 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318433571 915646 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318433714 41464 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318434200 710733 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1318435634 124102 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318436123 514150 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.primaxstudio.com/stuff/scale_of_universe/scale-of-universe-v1.swf < 1318436132 186525 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just me or is that the Spore soundtrack. < 1318436230 786916 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318436792 548106 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : My conclusion is that Gregor has probably accidentally come up with something incredibly useful. // huh < 1318436802 549212 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, FSVO incredibly :P < 1318436879 103791 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm pretty sure a model where you run a server at home with all your music on it and remotely access and stream it from your phone is feasible with 3G connections in practice. The problem then is more that DSL upload rates don't tend to be that good, I guess :P < 1318436906 808227 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that idea. Except I tried to make it terrible :P < 1318436911 113689 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you failed :P < 1318436928 588308 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be so much nicer than synchronising some arbitrary subset of your music all the time. < 1318436949 505212 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you reëncode the music for uploading any DSL connection should be fine < 1318436955 781823 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, clearly I need to think of more terrible ideas. < 1318436958 71857 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's what Apple's new iCloud rubbish is meant to be, except it actually just redownloads from iTunes' servers because Apple have literally no comprehension that they are not the only provider of services in the entire universe. < 1318436985 870955 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I forget how good Vorbis is. But certainly it's trivial if you make it sound like crap :P < 1318436996 122544 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seen in r/AskScience: someone scared of mining on the moon because humans upset the delicate balance of nature, maaaan < 1318436998 364497 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1318437011 645712 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's probably trivial for Finns to get high-quality audio streamed off a consumer DSL connection's upload, < 1318437014 735721 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: feasible for Brits, < 1318437018 564177 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: and impossible for USians. < 1318437053 401330 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: What kind of uploads do Brits/USians have, then < 1318437075 574015 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's that upload speed monitor? < 1318437087 323893 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: My upload is I think two megabits (eight megabits download); you can get twenty four megabit download / dunno what upload nowadays but only in cities and it's far from ubiquitous yet. < 1318437089 881384 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :speedtest.net < 1318437095 53406 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fibre-optic offerings are very very new and barely available anywhere. < 1318437104 750703 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you usually get less than advertised because of distance to the exchange. < 1318437112 630026 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: CBR MP3s only go up to 320 kbps, no? < 1318437130 482132 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MP3s? So old fashioned. < 1318437135 638265 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just an example < 1318437136 77757 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it's true. < 1318437140 904797 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a liiittle bit of overhead though isn't there? :p < 1318437153 746255 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe some tiny amount, sure < 1318437166 410039 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's EDGE like, I wonder < 1318437167 325586 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 256 kbps should still be enough for "anything" :-P < 1318437182 92046 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the phone could cache recently-played music so you can survive even in, like, the harsh Finnish desert < 1318437194 272408 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, it would be nice if it worked outside threegee areas < 1318437196 566981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. cities < 1318437233 467742 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Listen to modules, problem solved < 1318437236 768953 :hagb4rd2!~perdito@koln-4db41f86.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318437262 754514 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "Modules", seriously now < 1318437272 454770 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took me about fifteen seconds to work out what the hell you were talking about < 1318437285 221595 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So oi, someone (fizzie) go look up EDGE speeds < 1318437286 192133 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry that there isn't a better term < 1318437288 490099 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, my upload speeds are .45Mbps. < 1318437290 360158 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"module files" < 1318437294 434890 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: mods? :p < 1318437312 195735 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live in the same city as one of the UK fibre optic backbone hubs. < 1318437315 845553 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ooh, how bourgeoise. < 1318437332 550383 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Always makes me think of the MOD format :-P < 1318437350 263905 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Kind of the point :P < 1318437363 812169 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I.e. too restrictive < 1318437571 5853 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I get that much over 3G on my phone < 1318437588 733533 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318437652 593061 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318437737 76864 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Use your phone to host your other phone's music collection < 1318437757 502097 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have one phone < 1318437774 469548 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't use it to listen to music < 1318437789 655414 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wonder if it might not be most effective as a music-playing daemon type scenario that, when accessed remotely, outputs to a real-time vorbis/whatever encoder rather than an actual audio device < 1318437795 714236 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the phone connects to, decodes, and plays that < 1318437803 396795 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Store everything as FLAC on the server, obviously < 1318437810 539764 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, seems like it has a simpler streaming model < 1318437827 673416 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And something like shuffle seems easier to do without buffering gaps if you just let the server handle it and push it down the same stream < 1318437859 442166 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sorry, I don't think I could make this idea truly terrible if I tried; I want one < 1318437875 480424 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this not exist already or something? < 1318437887 417462 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Only the pure, unadulterated version of your concept remains awful < 1318437927 94740 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Right, the one that was always meant to be terrible :P < 1318437930 758882 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If it does, I don't know about it; the closest thing I know about is that new iCloud crap I mentioned, which seems to be tied into the iTunes Store and is basically just codeword for "your phone automatically downloads faux digital rights to shit, so we'll let you download it without asking twice" < 1318437937 633753 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't nearly the same thing, naturally < 1318437955 612267 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPD? < 1318437964 21325 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: 17:43 Hmm, I wonder if it might not be most effective as a music-playing daemon type scenario that, when accessed remotely, outputs to a real-time vorbis/whatever encoder rather than an actual audio device < 1318437974 312619 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: mpd/xmms2 allow for remote /control/ < 1318437979 825238 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they don't handle the whole "hearing it from miles away" thing < 1318437989 447893 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would have to be handled by what amounts to their output driver < 1318437996 420030 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly it could be a workable part of a solution < 1318437998 997958 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I wasn't aware < 1318438002 960249 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Icecast and such, then? < 1318438034 101223 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, online radio stations and similar exist < 1318438036 563423 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like mpd outputting to icecast seems like it would form something close to a solution, yes; you still need some custom code to handle the connection and switching of drivers < 1318438057 943258 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That stops you listening to music at home while also on a remote device, which I suppose might matter if you're not a hermit, but who isn't (and you could always just spawn another mpd I guess) < 1318438079 814939 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, the main thing here is the actual client code :P < 1318438108 667997 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have to use some random terrible mpd app to get stuff actually playing, then open up an internet radio app, key in an address, and it's already been playing for a minute by the time you connect, it's sort of worthles < 1318438109 367823 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1318438136 819785 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say so :-P < 1318438149 664021 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't seem worthless to me but whatever < 1318438184 897636 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, at least our connections are fast enough for it < 1318438223 144288 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, that solution is not less frustrating than the existing solution of "pick a random subset of music, encode it in batch, and synchronise it to phone; repeat every once in a while" < 1318438241 227801 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say so :-P < 1318438256 672088 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug, I'd have to try it :P < 1318438257 402367 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't listen to music except at home anyway < 1318438265 994212 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm not really qualified to have opinions on the matter < 1318438359 536247 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since when has lack of knowledge ever stopped anyone from having an opinion < 1318438392 324297 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It stops me from having an opinion because I try to not be an idiot < 1318438527 115739 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1318438759 936939 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-18.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1318439264 22543 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: You mean real-life EDGE speeds, or theoretical EDGE speeds? The latter can theoretically go up to around 200 kbps. < 1318439273 514024 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The type that aren't theoretical. < 1318439366 235040 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's around 128 kbps at most. And rather bad latency. < 1318439411 467842 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still better than the doesn't-quite-go-as-fast-as-56k-dialup plain GPRS. < 1318439537 512080 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Vorbis is meant to be transparent at 128 kbps, but I could be wrong about that. < 1318439600 853354 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318439601 325316 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :With large enough buffers... you probably wouldn't get consistent 128k through either. Except if you're lucky. < 1318439617 373927 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it sounds not the best streaming platform. < 1318439629 825590 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-36-216.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1318439630 119991 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-36-216.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1318439630 266736 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318439729 817974 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm ... anybody have a guess as per why my Usermode Linux can't run 32-bit binaries? Is there a kernel config option for that? < 1318439760 100162 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there is < 1318439774 94214 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONFIG_IA32_EMULATION=y < 1318439777 239289 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably that < 1318439810 405091 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, snot there >_> < 1318439823 569743 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that, plus intarwebs = "No, x86_64 UML does not have x86_32 emulation." < 1318439841 822366 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :D'oh < 1318440011 117543 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird < 1318440049 614665 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, never gonna run Opera 9 X-D < 1318440202 284276 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What are you trying to do :P < 1318440403 813972 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Gathering historical speed data to make a comparative study of industry standard v my benchmarks. < 1318440424 167140 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You need UML for this? :P < 1318440465 673442 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opera 7-9 on modern system = megacrash. < 1318440481 514361 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1318440702 866719 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I mean, like, "Make Linux my bitch" crash < 1318440705 180363 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's amazing. < 1318440855 742047 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1318441047 704469 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318442002 694656 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.229.166 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318442289 465967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318443379 905792 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318443387 359040 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1318443903 81607 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1318443903 264937 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going, tough one. if we solve it,... < 1318444013 328682 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1318444013 475477 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: his birthday is in the same identifiers with colons in them :p. i think i've gotten ( lambda fnord body)) val...) < 1318444024 105119 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1318444024 251992 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: if it's ( syntactically) long and short, whose semantics, though. more like doing what is in the same < 1318444025 772974 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1318444558 675600 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot!? < 1318444558 915781 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: just to help an fnord archive) but it looks like mike was trying to decide who to regulate and how to classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify the dase, simply classify t < 1318444675 629877 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5 < 1318444675 776805 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: is that something you know and and the cases that required to actually mutate the original i think you were still a very famous program talisman with fnord windows. that's always tricky. i could actually make progress. securing budgetary authority, can the governments. i know 2. that's obvious and you did refer to his fnord code < 1318444699 160891 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1318444707 548342 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1318444709 200534 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did it double for me and stop for you, CakeProphet? < 1318444893 277790 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318445792 856556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1318446327 634099 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evening, elliott < 1318446610 579321 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1318446881 585799 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318447483 946666 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-18.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: nites < 1318448163 25506 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-16-15.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318448202 313213 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evening, tiffany < 1318448216 436730 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-16-15.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hai < 1318448240 940409 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How're you? < 1318448254 999589 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-16-15.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1318448573 927604 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: The doubling is a known bug; it read that quit message as >>> :Ngevd!~nathan@host-�����rY�t2�3��qbl��~w�om�net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot:boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5 <<< < 1318448574 74413 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! something is reacting to the pendant. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey < 1318448618 628030 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaah < 1318448664 567336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I wonder, can you produce a dataset with inverted fnords? < 1318448673 615652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, everything /over/ N occurrences is fnorded, anything under kept? < 1318448676 85219 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: sdronf? < 1318448676 231914 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: " and this is a new game. there is no proof is considered one < 1318448723 919581 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord interesting < 1318448749 998263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: exactly < 1318448758 841726 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's what the fnords are < 1318448821 203335 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fnord fnord fnord fnord completely unreadable < 1318448845 576835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes but the thing is that fnord becomes /one token/ < 1318448855 791796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all you need to do is scale down the probabilities for fnord massively < 1318448861 552780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'll become... er, completely incoherent < 1318448863 373626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in a fun way < 1318448881 276843 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnord likely < 1318448897 89022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1318448966 26480 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnord fnord guess fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord experiment < 1318449090 578019 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be a bit repetitive, since by definition there wouldn't be very many non-fnord "next" words available. Either that, or rather random. < 1318449117 699609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: There is ONLY ONE WAY to find out. < 1318449119 675256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONLY < 1318449120 185687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONE < 1318449120 336355 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAY < 1318449127 4635 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the tools have an option for it. < 1318449144 265204 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they've sequenced the black death microbe. i foresee no problems with this. < 1318449194 210029 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : -f, --nfirst=INT Number of most common words to be included < 1318449197 689714 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : -d, --ndrop=INT Drop all words with less than ndrop occurances. If both nfirst and ndrop options are specified, the tighter bound is taken < 1318449205 944594 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, no inverted bounds. < 1318449314 153057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No problem, you'll clearly switch to the far superior engTK (Elliott's n-gram toolkit) when it's released! Too bad that won't support any kind of reduction at all. < 1318449362 258423 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you shold use the scoTK it is better in literally every way. < 1318449939 312814 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the norTK would be better if there was a non-zero probability of it ever reaching coding stage < 1318449984 160969 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318450108 96951 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1318450115 373862 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1318450115 702308 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1318450118 179208 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318450151 593075 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido has been here many times before :P < 1318450176 559726 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :very subtly, perhaps < 1318450196 574292 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: /or/, you just have terrible memory < 1318450203 662639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is the correct option) < 1318450220 295987 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just nonsense, i cannot recall having a terrible memory < 1318450241 125115 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so what's the newest fad in esoteric language land? ;) < 1318450265 237806 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely nothing < 1318450268 196388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like always :) < 1318450300 55262 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We ran out of fads when we all started playing Minecraft. < 1318450303 65384 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very faddish these days < 1318450346 628080 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you transitioned to dwarf fortress? < 1318450356 93995 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but we all got bored with it pretty quickly. < 1318450362 931286 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you passed on since then? < 1318450363 563055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: We did? < 1318450375 582760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm not bored of DF, it's just one of those phases things. < 1318450394 252999 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm pretty sure 1.9 will start up the Minecraft mania again and we can all go back to being unproductive. < 1318450395 901836 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well true; I just drifted out of it more than getting /bored/, but it amounts to the same. < 1318450438 91407 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been into http://apocalisp.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/type-level-programming-in-scala-part-6b-hlist%C2%A0folds/ < 1318450457 194160 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1318450457 985513 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should create a language to mock typed languages < 1318450485 441814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like boring old hlists, except overcomplicated because scala's syntax sucks < 1318450495 978394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: to laugh at them, or to make something that behaves similarly to them for testing? < 1318450507 855080 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318450510 654918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it already exists, it's called compile-time C++ < 1318450516 609181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has several notable accomplishments in the field of type-level programming. including C++ templates :P < 1318450527 84351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan knows. the horror is within his brain. < 1318450532 803092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can never escape my questions. < 1318450571 885250 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i escape the C++ ones < 1318450662 885964 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what about a language that has types at runtime, and values at compile time? - effectively reversing compile-runtime < 1318450702 284883 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, types are the best. < 1318450703 605598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: sounds like word salad until you give it semantics :P < 1318450739 425712 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i know - just brain farting < 1318450767 254382 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log elliott.*fizzbuzz < 1318450782 283620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzzzzzzzzzzzz < 1318450783 926027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzzzzzzzz < 1318450794 961864 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-05-27.txt:05:11:34: -- Defined at /home/elliott/Code/fizzbuzz/fizzbuzz.hs:30:10-53 < 1318450796 443499 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo is rather slow today < 1318450912 221535 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm effin' around on Codu. < 1318450931 590088 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I have fdupes -rL /var/chroots/*/{bin,lib,usr} running. < 1318450969 834853 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And HackEgo runs with nice -n10 :P < 1318451010 706332 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: magpie has a pretty interesting type engine - does this count as runtime types? < 1318451061 183246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :magpie is intended to have some form of static checking to my knowledge < 1318451077 512065 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: or are you not the type of person to talk about types? < 1318451095 630508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of person would that be < 1318451126 223699 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a typical person of course! < 1318451128 377311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I wonder why duplicate-checking tools compare hashes first; surely computing two hashes from disk is not really cheaper than comparing two blocks of disk? < 1318451137 715937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: opposite, wouldn't it be < 1318451173 88085 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They don't depend on names, so they have to maintain a hashtable per file size to be able to look anything up. < 1318451183 558981 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any esoteric languages that are esoterically typed? < 1318451189 64330 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Otherwise they'd have to do a file-by-file comparison for every pair of files of the same length. < 1318451206 108429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, right, memoisation :P < 1318451234 112282 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no Hindley–Milner please! < 1318451287 221737 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Also, computing the hashes can be cheaper, since reading file A fully and then file B fully is likely to be more sequential than reading file A and B fully in an interleaved fashion < 1318451299 276583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right < 1318451301 101540 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, OK, just get rid of Milner. < 1318451327 346096 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In short, you're wrong in every way. :P < 1318451337 765490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm also tired :P < 1318451338 957764 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we are left with Milner cheese - fine with me < 1318451352 631421 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feh, that only freed 200M :( < 1318451395 903878 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ha, to free space on Pyralspite I just clear away backups. < 1318451401 13516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I haven't actually done that yet. TODO: That.) < 1318451459 543174 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The backups aren't on Codu, they're on my machine :P < 1318451469 647423 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I mean the world backups :P < 1318451475 589828 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1318451637 753397 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking of a (esoteric!) language called TOTALLY STRONGLY TRANSPOSED that has the restriction that every (partial) (curried) (total) function must have a transpose and is strongly typed < 1318451697 558465 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about an esolang based on looms? < 1318451731 803990 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :looms? what is it? < 1318451807 398969 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things for weaving, but that's not important < 1318451895 415466 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Is that an Airplane! reference? < 1318451910 992560 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly < 1318451975 294418 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to TOTALLY STRONGLY OPPOSED! < 1318452012 238629 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taking programming right back to its roots. < 1318452091 305237 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you define the transpose of a function? < 1318452123 836461 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :carefully < 1318452152 335489 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the transpose of this 'function' Int->Double->String->Char ? < 1318452165 583546 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :String->Double->Int->Char < 1318452190 441893 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just reordering arguments? < 1318452235 762789 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but it only works for total (curried) functions < 1318452253 527373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip < 1318452254 362035 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b < 1318452259 480117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAAAAAALE < 1318452261 618574 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Prelude.flip < 1318452262 528774 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c < 1318452313 392422 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just flip a->b->c->d->e->f < 1318452319 825807 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little tricky to define in haskell, because of having to detect when you've reached the _actual_ result... < 1318452336 82254 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot detect non-functions < 1318452383 615077 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, you can't express non-functions in TOTALLY STRONGLY TRANSPOSED < 1318452412 262937 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: um that means you don't have -> Char at the end there < 1318452436 331792 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, you should transpose the function matrix, which is not a thing but should be. < 1318452456 739422 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmmm, unless you define Char as a function i guess < 1318452468 728776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: turtles < 1318452473 14328 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: yes, but shouldn't you then add _its_ argument to the left... < 1318452479 991272 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :when transposing < 1318452492 97028 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the argument of its result, etc. < 1318452499 2662 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you got me! - i'm a fraud! < 1318452596 986224 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A21D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318452619 408357 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible escape: define an 'end-function' as the identity function? < 1318452649 621364 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the identity function is boring anyways < 1318452685 264490 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318452823 633269 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :transpose (a->b->c->Identity) -> (c->b->a->Identity) < 1318452833 349545 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't mind the syntax < 1318452937 235337 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn - non-functions - they bite - forget what i said < 1318452965 787382 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :back to the drawing board .... i < 1318452977 964932 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1318453052 986168 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this transpose stuff is transposing my brains < 1318453143 712272 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 'um that means you don't have -> Char at the end there' - thanks for that! you nudged me in the 'right' direction < 1318453221 608068 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be the right direction, but is there anything left? < 1318453275 906319 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :K-Lined < 1318453332 407469 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure! now I have to figure out if there can be a transpose function in untyped lambda calculus < 1318453354 316687 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what evil scheme did quintopia perform < 1318453357 95825 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, why did quintopia get K-lined? < 1318453377 261523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's, umm, a good question < 1318453382 40292 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the quintessential crime < 1318453386 660026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that if he's k-lined, he can't get back online to tell us < 1318453392 414375 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1318453400 656685 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's usually what a k-line implies < 1318453401 809413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I remember when SlashNET once went crazy and simultaneously K-lined everyone) < 1318453405 607347 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OO < 1318453423 23583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took me a while to tentatively try to log on again to figure out if the k-line had been removed; I assumed it was a mistake < 1318453424 505210 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: there can be an anything function in untyped lambda calculus < 1318453425 333463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns out it was < 1318453430 160430 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, isn't it a server ban, not a network ban? < 1318453435 783761 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A g-line is network, no? < 1318453439 81041 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: On Freenode they are isomorphic < 1318453448 935515 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1318453479 187159 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freenode has a centralized server architecture, unlike networks like EFNet < 1318453619 75779 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but can you formulate a generic transpose function in untyped lambda calculus < 1318453634 713040 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's just an argument shuffle, then yes. < 1318453696 433719 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem here is that a function in untyped lambda calculus conceptually takes an infinite list of arguments toward the right < 1318453720 892655 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how would such lambda function look like < 1318453722 714878 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd want to turn it into a function that takes the same infinite list, reversed. < 1318453729 608806 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is absurd. < 1318453734 374354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318453759 430312 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, well, if it's just f a b c d → f c b a d, it's trivial. < 1318453760 695036 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so, no go? < 1318453787 890800 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: i doubt it < 1318453805 563349 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it depends on the number of arguments, it's meaningless because, as oerjan said, lambda functions don't h < 1318453812 832082 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/have/ a number of arguments. < 1318453844 168932 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if you have a special 'stop/end' lambda? < 1318453865 927348 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... doesn't make an awful lot of sense, I'm afraid. < 1318453886 802324 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nil? < 1318453893 427537 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Null? < 1318453911 738127 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1318453930 176815 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of what a cps version of lambda calculus would look like, which makes sort of sense < 1318453936 410031 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope? that's a nice ending :) < 1318453948 944026 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define lambda calculus with argument lists, but it's quite different to the normal kind. < 1318454014 993887 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally i once concluded the d function in unlambda could be used as a stop/end marker for argument lists. i never worked it out completely though. < 1318454025 331795 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gb < 1318454034 324878 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :d is the delay function, yes? < 1318454040 95202 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1318454075 630269 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the one function you can test for without performing the effects of applying it < 1318454081 681384 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gb <- oops! keyboard mucking < 1318454087 378254 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318454095 793322 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hmm, how? < 1318454120 201249 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I realise it's terribly obvious, but I am warm and sleepy.) < 1318454120 844425 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: d sound mysterious already < 1318454131 85560 :Ngevd!~nathan@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: goodnight < 1318454156 807858 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: basically, if you do `x`y, only x = d avoids calling the continuation < 1318454171 227285 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh. < 1318454203 79839 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how Madore added continuations just because they're hard to understand, FSVO 'hard'. < 1318454250 79880 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you do ``x`y`z you can return either y or z, without ever risking effects from applying x < 1318454311 691906 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers that he tried to write Lazy K-in-Lazy K but gave up inexplicably. < 1318454326 690518 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait - unlambda has SKI combinators only - or?.... < 1318454347 412842 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: no, unlambda has that + even weirder stuff < 1318454364 826087 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :weirder stuff! yes! < 1318454376 697730 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1318454391 813925 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's functional minimalism done wrong, really. < 1318454404 265754 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ < 1318454417 249438 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: _gloriously_ wrong < 1318454420 687162 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1318454438 932972 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, it depends on whether it was meant to be crazy or minimalisti. < 1318454442 225581 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*minimalistic < 1318454446 847295 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :d for delay, c for call-with-current-continuation, some relatively simple output functions, and input functions which require the use of continuations or at least cps style < 1318454449 970243 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what is functional minimalism done right? < 1318454465 828531 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, Lazy K. < 1318454473 905439 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI, literally nothing else. < 1318454480 704232 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambda calculus :P < 1318454486 798971 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy k has a bit too many alternative syntaxes < 1318454494 703351 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, it supports multiple syntaxes, admittedly, but they're all equivalent.) < 1318454631 108333 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true, but importantly using only `ski allows you to use the entire languag. < 1318454633 242371 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*language < 1318454694 193354 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :diversion: anyone into K (or Q) from kxsystems - the only commercial esoteric language out there? < 1318454696 386209 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1318454716 940411 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, wrong, cf. BANCStar. < 1318454766 366499 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BANCStar? is it real! < 1318454768 954924 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318454809 114553 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1318454961 530700 :rapido!~rapido@98-41-223.ftth.xms.internl.net QUIT :Quit: rapido < 1318456300 22475 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1318456482 791125 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318456502 746614 :Sgeo|web!ad034d00@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.3.77.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm turning into an esoteric < 1318456541 519124 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you accidentally a ... lemur < 1318456612 313019 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So upon trying to complete my UCAS form, arguably the most important in my life to date, my parents have just yelled at me and flounced off. < 1318456615 602726 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pro parenting. < 1318457434 397381 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1318457436 856028 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318457713 636444 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1318458144 700765 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what a UCAS form is. < 1318458406 313525 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318458834 484882 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1318459134 419074 :CakeProphet!~eris@24.75.167.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318459134 565738 :CakeProphet!~eris@24.75.167.74 QUIT :Changing host < 1318459134 565805 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1318460458 548081 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1318460655 938481 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1318461342 353445 :Patashu!Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1318461427 616311 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318461760 526626 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1318463360 243565 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1318463626 554341 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A21D.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection