00:40:59 oh god template haskell 00:41:00 <3<3<3 00:53:48 I think Template Haskell is good idea. Although, some improvements could be made, and it cannot do all things, such as, you might want some different kind of macro, so that you can make something like a polymorphic polymorphic function, as opposed to only normal polymorphic functions. 00:54:43 This is how I proved Peirce's law in Haskell: 00:54:48 peirce :: (Classical p, Classical q) => ((p -> q) -> p) -> p; 00:55:17 peirce = unswitcheroo . contrapositive .> mapR (contrapositive switcheroo') .> mapR (map1 undoubleNot . undeMorgan) .> mapL ((,) ()) .> either snd fst; 00:57:22 hm... 00:58:00 do you have any instance (Classical p, Classical q) => Classical (p -> q) ? i'm not sure if one should be possible 00:58:33 oerjan: I do but I did not write the methods yet. That is what I try to do. 00:59:13 (Specifically, I don't know how to write the law of excluded middle for (x -> y) or (x, y) or (Either x y)) 00:59:16 i think Classical p is equivalent to having the axiom p \/ not p. hm. 00:59:39 oerjan: Yes, that is what I did. 01:00:01 if you have y, then you have x -> y. so the question is, what if you don't have y. 01:00:11 i mean, you have not y. 01:00:39 so then you have (x -> y) -> not x, i think 01:01:10 if you have x, then it gives you a contradiction. 01:01:16 At first I write the instance for (Not x) separately but it is really a specific of the (x -> y) instance, so I commented out (and will later remove) the (Not x) instance. 01:01:19 but if you have not x, and not y, what then 01:03:45 Yes those are the things I was trying to think of! 01:05:37 lem = case (lem, lem) of (_, Left y) -> Left (const y); ... 01:07:57 (Right nx, _) -> Left (contradiction . nx); 01:08:47 but what of (Left x, Right ny) -> ... 01:09:03 oh 01:09:47 (Left x, Right ny) -> Right (ny . ($ x)) 01:09:53 that's it, i think 01:11:05 Yes, thanks, that worked. 01:11:55 for (x,y), hm 01:13:25 (Right nx, _) -> Right (nx . fst); (_, Right ny) -> Right (ny . snd); (Left x, Left y) -> Left (x,y) 01:14:41 OK, that worked. 01:14:53 should i try Either as well? 01:15:02 I should think so. 01:16:06 (Left x, _) -> Left (Left x); (_, Left y) -> Left (Right y); (Right nx, Right ny) -> Right (either nx ny) 01:16:45 bit confusing, that one :P 01:17:01 Yes it is, but the compiler accepts it. 01:21:24 What sort of explanation should I write on these things? 01:22:36 well essentially this is dividing up according to the boolean truth table of the operations, somewhat... 01:40:44 I seem to have made up a way of making classical logic in Haskell which is completely different from all other ways that other people have made up before that I know of. 01:49:14 In the non-program part of this Haskell program, I have already used three different accent-mark/special-letters. 01:50:41 (Specifically, \O, \"o, and \=o.) 01:51:12 \O ? are you crediting me? :P 01:51:48 Yes, for the part where you help me to make up the lem of some of the instances. 01:52:14 what is \=o again 01:52:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:52:25 It is o with macron or "bar" 01:52:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:53:50 (Specifically, I was referencing "Ganto's theorem", on page 189 of Hofstadter's book) 01:54:03 (And, of course, \"o is for the title of that book.) 01:54:32 All of them are form of letter O, as it is turning out!! 01:54:58 indeed 01:55:22 and if you could sneak in a mention of Erd\Ho s as well... 01:55:29 (iirc) 01:56:59 Yes, I believe that is the correct spelling of his name (well, you need {Erd\H os} so that \H is one word by itself), but I don't seem to have something related to his things in this program, as far as I can tell. 01:57:19 (What I mean by \H is one "word" is it is one control word) 01:58:27 ah 02:13:26 -!- Sgeo|web has joined. 02:13:39 Derp, joined ther wrong channel 02:25:32 nub 02:25:37 so my new car 02:25:38 is awesome. 02:25:54 well, it needs some maintenance, but it runs which immediately makes it awesome. 02:26:02 1998 3.0L V6 Honda Accord. 02:27:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:27:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:47:19 a version 6 honda "accord" ... is that x86 compatible? 02:56:20 -!- ive has joined. 02:59:05 Discard the notions of things changing/evolving in time, and then you can know the secret of time travel. 03:17:40 The secret of time travel is throwing yourself at the future and missing. 03:19:24 -!- nooga has joined. 03:21:38 olsner: uh 03:21:48 olsner: that refers to a V engine. 03:22:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_engine 03:23:23 CakeProphet: that doesn't seem turing complete at all 03:23:25 It's one of the most compact engine layouts. Straight (aka inline) engines tend to be lengthier. 03:24:11 right, so it makes for more compact code? or just the engine that's more compact, and the code ends up larger? 03:25:05 no it's not Turing complete, but it's much better at generating power/torque than puny computers. 03:26:15 otoh, computers don't generally need to move stuff, just calculate it, so I don't see where that torque would be going 03:27:10 yes, and that is the difference between cars and computer 03:27:14 oh wait, no I meant to say: 03:27:33 "lololol compraring cars 2 comptuters so clevr" 03:28:01 hey physics is equivalent to information theory anyway 03:28:03 comparing cars and computers? but the cars are stored in the computers ... 03:28:40 no. stop. 03:29:53 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:29:58 wow my lab professor doesn't even bother to compile the driver code to ensure it works. 03:38:03 oerjan: how so? 03:38:11 do you mean that information theory is based on physics? 03:39:01 how would engine displacement translate to information? 03:45:59 -!- pagnol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:59:11 engine displacement information 04:01:19 so basically they're equivalent in that information theory can simulate physics with... physics information? 04:02:06 and physics can simulate information with information physics 04:02:32 I thought information theory used countable bits... doesn't physics specifically not use countable things? 04:02:35 er, wait 04:02:35 nevermind. 04:02:53 I forgot about those things called particles. 04:03:58 * CakeProphet finds it entirely silly that Java has a new keyword. 04:04:23 well, the only use I see it serving 04:04:34 is that it disambiguates the construction of arrays. 04:04:48 new Object[10000] 04:05:09 though I don't really think that's ambiguous 04:05:10 it's just that 04:05:24 Object[] arr = Object[10000] 04:05:26 looks weird. 04:06:48 wehres the key word 04:07:28 I'm saying it's not needed... 04:07:47 hats hte keyworddw 04:08:15 in C++ it's needed to distinguish between heap allocation and... ephemeral object constructor things. 04:08:40 but Java doesn't have that distinction, so... 04:08:43 why is it there? 04:09:38 do you mean that information theory is based on physics? <-- the other way as well 04:10:03 ah yes, equivalence. :P 04:36:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:43:41 Is superstring theories science or is it mathematics? 04:52:49 anyone play df? 04:52:53 what's the latest version of dwarf therapist 05:19:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:32:26 Does the physical universe have any lazy I/O? 05:37:36 I don't think that question has any meaning in that context. 05:38:39 laziness is a property of the evaluation semantics of a programming language. Also, I'm not entirely sure what input/output would mean in the physical universe. 05:41:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:41:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:47:28 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 05:55:09 CakeProphet: I don't know either; I just thought about it for philosophical reasons. 06:06:44 And anyways, I do not think that lazy evaluation is exactly the same things as lazy I/O, anyways. 06:16:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:16:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:17:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:17:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:19:06 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:26:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:27:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:32:50 -!- Ngevd has joined. 06:34:19 Morning 06:36:15 -!- ive has joined. 06:39:41 It seems that in Australia everyone is a fervent royalist except for the politicians 06:45:08 In 1997 the AA Newsletter Transit invited astrologers to submit "articles of up to 3000 words which put forward a case for, and demonstrate, the Truth of Astrology -- whatever that may mean to the author". The results show how illogical everyone is in answering these questions. The winner looked at his own chart in advance, and predicted that he wouldn't win (he was wrong). Some responses are better than others, but none actually prove its trut 06:45:23 "Mankind questions everything. Skeptics challenge astrology because it has no obvious explanation. But there is no explanation of man's evolution, or of gravity, or of genes. They just are. The same with astrology. It is true because it exists." 06:45:46 :D 06:45:49 "Nobody has come up with a sure proof of astrology, otherwise we would know about it via the Astrological Journal if not the BBC. Its truth lies in its symbols and meaning. But we cannot know in advance which of countless possible meanings will apply, so the truth of astrology lies at a deeper level: Mars in Cancer is always Mars in Cancer." 06:47:14 Lemony cheese is always lemony cheese 06:48:56 One entry said that truth and facts are not the same thing (fact = it is raining, truth = what really lies behind that fact (such as clouds, gods, or whatever)). "Astrological truth is not like logical truth, such as if A=B and B=C then A=C. ... But like any language, astrology can describe truths." [but you can lie in any language as well! Worse, not everyone agrees on the language of astrology meaning. What is the use of language if nobody ca 06:50:09 "Astrology is proved every time we read charts for clients. If it were false we would not have clients. Researchers look at isolated factors so no wonder their results are negative. ... However, the multiple meanings of astrological symbols means that these things cannot be predicted in advance. Once the life has been lived we see how the chart fits like a glove." 06:50:32 [Actually any chart's interpretations will fit; even the wrong one.] 06:52:12 One of the entrants used astrology to prove that astrology must prove itself. 06:54:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:55:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:55:35 "If you want proof of astrology, use the same proof that applies to religion or painting or music, not to science" 06:55:50 How do you prove a painting or a piece of music? 06:59:22 WITH SCIENCE 07:07:26 There is a Jyte claim (a statement that users with OpenID can vote agree/disagree and comments) that says "People who make life decisions based on astrology freak me out." Well, not to me; although I would not make decisions in this way. An agreer commented "Unless they are making a decision where a sane person might flip a coin or use a cat." But my response to that comment is: "But, flip a coin is just head and tails! That is the difference." 07:08:40 What network thingies are the bots written in a non-networky language using? 07:09:39 I don't know. 07:09:42 Hmm 07:12:29 -!- pagnol has joined. 07:15:47 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 07:16:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:16:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:17:02 You mean like Brainfuck? I don't think there are any Brainfuck bots here 07:17:19 !bf +[.+] 07:17:23 ^bf +[.+] 07:17:24 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 07:17:31 But it could be done by hooking stdio to IRC 07:17:32 There's a thutubot 07:17:38 Oh, fungot is written in Befunge-98 07:17:39 Sgeo|web: mist.page. i meane that my heart meanes no ill intent, but that he will steale sir an egge out of a note 07:17:46 Oh, nope 07:17:48 Sgeo, seriously? 07:17:49 Wait, not nope 07:17:53 ^help 07:17:53 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 07:17:59 ^show bf 07:18:09 Befunge-98 has built in networking 07:18:22 ^perl 07:18:26 I thought Ngevd said that That's a thutubot 07:18:33 ^ul (ACTION hugs Sgeo)! 07:18:37 Whats print in underload? 07:18:42 S I think? 07:18:50 ^ul (Hello)S 07:18:51 Hello 07:19:09 http://jyte.com/claims?by=zzo38computer.cjb.net&page=1 07:19:41 ^ul (ACTION hugs Sgeo)S 07:19:42 * fungot hugs Sgeo 07:19:50 Some claims I disagree my owns ones 07:20:08 ^ul (`echo "test")S 07:20:09 `echo "test" 07:20:13 Ignoring bots, eh! 07:20:16 ​"test" 07:20:16 t> `ec 07:20:22 Um. 07:20:53 Does fungot ignore HackEgo? 07:20:54 Sgeo|web: big. out dunghill: dar'st thou braue a nobleman? hub. why know you not 07:21:11 All the bots ignore eachother 07:21:14 `echo ^ul (Nope)S 07:21:16 ​^ul (Nope)S 07:21:33 :P 07:21:33 Ngevd: HackEgo didn't seem to ignore fungot 07:21:35 Sgeo|web: aut. here's another ballad of a fish that appeared upon the coast, and, from the firmament: thy sunne sets weeping in the lowly west, witnessing stormes to come, with words more sweet, and cunning hand laid on: lady, lady 07:21:58 ^ul (PING)S 07:21:58 PING 07:22:14 Seriously, that's, um 07:22:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:22:24 ^ul (ACTION hugs Sgeo)S 07:22:24 * fungot hugs Sgeo 07:22:34 ^ul (ACTION hugs Madoka-Kaname)S 07:22:35 ACTION hugs Madoka-Kaname 07:22:49 Oh, it's using that weird byte thingy? 07:22:51 Yep 07:22:55 Well, such uses of the command you should use with rarely. But it is sometimes of use. 07:23:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:23:49 Count the seconds it takes to stop thinking about this sentence. 07:24:12 -!- ive has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:25:51 Three 07:26:13 0 07:26:16 Are you sure? 07:26:29 Pretty sure 07:26:37 Too busy thinking about ars amatoria 07:26:56 OK 07:28:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:28:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:33:58 Have you ever pulsed a telephone manually? 07:34:03 No 07:34:05 Never 07:35:16 Have you ever built a telephone? 07:35:21 No 07:35:23 Never 07:36:16 I have never built a telephone (but would like to, at some time); I have, however, pulsed a telephone manually, even recently. 07:38:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:38:51 Fuck Sgeo 07:38:59 erm, fuck the connection that causes Sgeo to do that 07:39:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:39:58 All trees are planar graphs! 07:41:11 Ngevd: Yes, I believe so. 07:55:49 all of the dwarftherapists I try to use seem to be broken 07:56:37 Same 07:57:28 There's a DF IRC channel somewhere 07:57:39 #esoteric-minecraft 08:01:51 I still have not figured out how to fix gopher movie time service 08:02:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:03:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:05:03 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:06:05 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:08:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:10:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:11:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:19:38 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:20:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:20:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:26:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:26:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:29:50 "Just a quick game", he said at 1. 08:29:56 And pulled out a fucking board-wipe deck. 08:32:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:33:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:38:53 ^ignore 08:38:53 ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)! 08:39:03 That's who he doesn't care about. 08:39:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:39:46 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:40:34 how cruel 08:41:42 Wait. 08:41:58 Is that a underload expression? 08:41:58 o.o 08:42:21 No, but it is the result of Befunge code. 08:42:31 As fungot is written in Befunge. 08:42:32 pikhq: servant. my lord-- here shrowd till the dregges of the storme be past. this is the poyson of their hearts: god keepe you from them and from such false friends! prince. comes forward peace, ye fnord walls, where we did attend a suit, which was your shame, by this carriage. the hearts of kings, edwards vnhappy sonnes, do bid thee flourish. 08:42:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:42:51 It's a regex. 08:43:31 Matched against the nick!user@host prefix, that's why the ! at the end. 08:43:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:46:17 fizzie: so then do you interpret the regex via Befunge or offload it? 08:46:52 There's an app^Wfingerprint for that. 08:47:16 The REXP one, I think. 08:47:22 ^source 08:47:22 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 08:47:27 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:49:12 Yes. (See lines 26 and somewhere around 110.) 08:50:00 o.o 08:50:03 You're kidding me~ 08:50:36 What? 08:50:42 That's... 08:50:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:50:49 An obfuscated bot =p 08:51:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:51:16 There's a few of them 08:51:33 I'm going to write one in Piet as soon as I've figured out how 08:51:39 What. It's the cleanest-written Funge-98 irc-bot I've seen. 08:51:54 Admittedly only by virtue of being the only one I've seen. 08:53:06 Okay, the block on lines 125-169 which does the babbling is not the most structured. 08:53:49 But the underload interp at 310-347 is very clear. 08:54:56 So. 08:55:03 The bf one at 351-372 (bytecode compilation) and 294-306 (execution) maybe a bit less so, but the execution bit isn't bad. 08:55:15 You're implementing BF and underload then using them as the main languages 08:55:35 Well, no, not much of the botting stuff is done using those. 08:55:39 Just user code. 08:55:48 ^show 08:55:48 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr 08:55:50 Those. 08:56:15 ^show celebrate 08:56:15 ( \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/)S 08:56:15 | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | | 08:56:15 /| |\ |\ | /'\ >\ >\ | |\ /| >\ 08:56:16 /`\ (_|¯´¯|_) 08:56:16 (_| |_) 08:56:21 Rrrright. 08:57:02 hi 08:58:30 (The 'ul' on that list is an Underload interp in bf; it got obsoleted when native support was added. It was so slow it just barely managed (foo)S within the cycle limit.) 08:59:07 ^celebrate 08:59:08 \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/ 08:59:08 | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | | 08:59:08 /'\ /| /< | >\ /< >\ | >\ >\ >\ 08:59:09 /`\ (_|¯´\ 08:59:09 (_| |_) |_) 09:02:03 newtype Nomic a = Nomic (State (Nomic a) a) 09:02:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:02:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:05:03 so I am foolishly building a water system, hoping that I understand pressure well enough to not flood my fort. 09:05:28 CakeProphet, pumps destroy pressure. 09:05:42 Diagonal spaces, pressure cannot go through 09:05:57 right 09:06:07 Well. 09:06:10 I just set up a waterwheel so I could try a pump. however 09:06:11 I think pumps create some too. 09:06:15 in winter 09:06:21 the water wheel will stop. 09:06:30 but I also have a cistern 09:06:43 so, maybe the cistern would flood my fort? 09:07:54 -!- derrik has joined. 09:07:55 not even sure if my cistern works correctly. 09:07:58 I guess I'll find out 09:07:59 but first 09:08:10 I need to make a drain valve. 09:08:32 so I can test stuff, shut it off, and remove the excess water. 09:09:37 well... 09:09:46 the drain should really be at the bottom... 09:09:58 these things are difficult to plan. :P 09:11:39 multiple drainage valves are fine. 09:12:06 kind of time consuming even for 3 legendary miners though. 09:16:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:17:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:19:49 -!- Sgeo has left. 09:39:35 Does anyone ever use undead other than zombies in ZOMBIE programming? 09:44:34 Vampires or Djinn could make decent rngs 09:46:04 Which obscure branch of computer science is the most interesting? 09:46:36 Genetic algorithms in the context of stock markets 09:46:43 That's also the most profitable 09:49:42 or in the context of biology, though I have no clue about the latter 09:50:46 any other suggestions? 09:53:48 I'm a student of computer science and the lectures I am obliged to attend at the moment deal with the most common subjects (introductory stuff like automata, linear algebra etc.), so I would like to investigate some not so common topic 09:54:07 Well, I'm not much help there 09:54:16 Why? 09:54:29 Because I'm doing the first year of A-levels 09:54:39 Maths, Further Maths, Ancient History, and Latin 09:54:48 And have barely any Computer Science background 09:54:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:54:55 Really just what I've picked up here 09:55:22 -!- augur has joined. 09:56:13 But you do invent languages? 09:56:20 Yeah 09:56:22 That I remember 09:56:22 Not very good ones 09:56:50 Have you published the specifications or provided an interpreter? 09:57:01 Just on the wiki 09:57:16 How are they called? I'd like to have a look 09:57:32 Brook, Constantinople, Luigi, MIBBLLII, Numberwang, and Nandypants 10:01:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:01:33 -!- augur has joined. 10:01:53 Luigi sounds interesting 10:02:38 One of the few esolangs to be demonstrated turing-complete by showing that arbitrary turing machines can be translated into it 10:04:45 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:08:06 I would like the "proof" on the page a bit more if you'd have translated one of the universal ones. 10:08:21 Pass me a universal one, and I'll do it 10:09:46 -!- pagnol has quit. 10:09:48 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalTuringMachine.html if you can read their I-think-it's-really-wonky graphical notation. 10:15:54 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:18:16 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 10:30:16 That better, fizzie? 10:44:56 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: disappear). 10:45:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:45:48 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:54:41 -!- atehwa_ has changed nick to atehwa. 11:00:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 11:12:09 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:18:55 -!- Ngevd has joined. 11:24:28 > " " ++ (unwords . map (\x -> "http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/"++show x++".png") $ [1..5]) ++ " " 11:24:30 " http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/1.png http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16495819/2... 11:24:34 ...aww 11:39:45 but anyways I have a rudimentary water system now, with a cistern so I can store water in the freezing winter. 11:39:53 Hurah! 11:40:02 s/r/rr/ 11:40:12 I might also be able to turn it into a fishing room if I put bridges over it perhaps? 11:40:23 I've been having trouble catching fish for some reason. 11:40:41 I think it's because all of the water supplies are a z-level below the land adjacent to it. 11:40:50 Dig a channel 11:41:00 ah 11:41:07 well, fishing room sounds badass too so I'll do that. :P 11:41:13 :d 11:41:22 also the cistern should catch some fish during winter. 11:41:28 so I can FISH DURING WINTER BAHAHAHAHAHA 11:42:29 FIIIIIISH!!! 11:43:14 so.... 11:43:27 any diagonal flow will completely negate all pressure always? 11:43:35 I don't know 11:43:42 I'm awful at water management in DF 11:43:53 I may just set up one of those fancy perpetual motion water wheels and use a pump. 11:44:08 sounds cheap though 11:44:33 but otherwise my water wheel will die in the winter. I guess I should have connected it to the cistern. 11:45:00 er, well, the cistern doesn't flow. 11:45:13 so yeah, perpetual motion machine. 11:45:15 sounds good. 11:45:41 hmmmm, well 11:45:49 basically I want to set up a well in my hospital 11:46:00 so I can just install a floodgate to mitigate disaster. 11:46:14 er, just a door actually. 11:47:31 actually, I don't even really get what makes a floodgate different from a door. 11:47:47 except that a door can be controlled my dwarves and floodgates much be mechanized. 11:47:50 *must 11:47:54 *by 11:49:36 ooooh, maybe if I do some fancy pipework I can put a badass waterfall in my dining hall. 11:50:27 but then drainage /not flooding everything / resizing rooms and rerouting pipes becomes very difficult 11:57:53 I don't really understand how people sanely tunnel into magma/water sources. 11:58:01 I did it when the river was frozen 11:58:31 The weather's acting up 11:58:39 It's summery 11:58:49 oh yeah I've noticed that too 11:58:50 only some days 11:59:07 There was frost not two days ago 12:01:01 also my embark site has a volcano I believe. 12:01:49 so I have an easy supply of magma to, say, construct a moat around my impenetrable fortress wall with archer towers. :) 12:03:13 I'll, uh, focus on that later. :P 12:10:53 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:18:25 there should be some kind of structure that converts magma flow into power. 12:18:38 similar to a water wheel but with much greater (possibly infinite?) power gains. 12:19:09 this would allow you to power a magma pump stack with the magma itself. 12:19:52 -!- bitdome has joined. 12:20:02 -!- bitdome has quit (Client Quit). 12:25:13 -!- sllide has joined. 12:30:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 12:37:51 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:41:03 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 12:56:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:17:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:17:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 13:17:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:18:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:41:05 -!- nooga has joined. 14:15:36 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:16:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:51:04 -!- tiffany has joined. 15:07:12 -!- derrik has joined. 15:41:29 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:05:53 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: gone). 16:06:46 -!- monqy has joined. 16:17:44 -!- elliott has joined. 16:32:08 -!- Ngevd has joined. 16:32:37 Hello! 16:40:05 hi 17:04:31 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Luigi&curid=4094&diff=24982&oldid=24836 17:04:39 Ngevd: that doesn't prove it TC 17:04:41 ask ais523 if you want to know why :P 17:04:55 (ais523's proof requires an infinite initial state) 17:05:05 elliott: read it again 17:05:11 it's not simulating the 3,2 machine at all 17:05:20 2,3, surely 17:05:21 it's giving a 3,2 busy beaver - a different machine - as an example 17:05:25 ais523: umm 17:05:27 ais523: I linked to a diff 17:05:28 the order of the numbers isn't standardised 17:05:31 don't comment on it without reading the diff 17:05:33 :p 17:05:35 oh right 17:05:41 it's such a wide diff only half fit on the screen 17:05:49 the original proof is better# 17:06:02 however, there are turing machines which are TC with a finitely initialised initial tape 17:06:13 the wolfram machine isn't one of them, but they do exist 17:06:49 yep 17:09:40 hilariously, Wolfram claimed a 2,5 machine universal in ANKOS, because it simulated rule 101 17:09:54 but it had no way to simulate rule 101 with an infinite tape, which is needed for the universality proof 17:09:57 heh 17:10:02 so it was wrong 17:10:08 and I got to tell him this over the phone 17:10:24 (I fixed the universality proof of that machine, btw, but haven't posted the fixed proof anywhere) 17:15:11 -!- ive has joined. 17:34:09 Hang on 17:34:28 Is there a standard notation for turing machines including initial tape lurking around anywhere? 17:35:05 not that I know 17:35:16 Ngevd: set theory? :P 17:35:45 Because I could probably make a turing machine to Luigi translator 17:37:02 Pretty easily, actually 17:40:39 -!- derrik has joined. 17:47:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:49:48 "Ganto's theorem" follows directly from law of excluded middle: ganto :: (Classical p, Classical q) => (p -> q, Not p -> q) -> q; ganto (x, y) = either x y lem; 17:51:35 (Actually, Classical only has to apply to p, not q, since law of excluded middle is only used with p) 17:51:47 -!- mtve has joined. 17:53:05 -!- augur_ has joined. 17:53:06 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:55:23 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:57:36 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:02:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:03:20 How goes the invasion? 18:03:26 Invasion what invasion 18:03:38 See topic. 18:03:44 Phantom_Hoover: temporarily aborted, I think 18:03:47 we want to clean up the mess first 18:03:56 ais523, pah! 18:04:04 actually /playing/ BlogNomic is encouraged, and even recommended 18:04:41 Worst invasion. 18:06:19 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 18:09:32 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:10:36 fuck you X11... 18:10:42 (crashed) 18:27:51 We actually talked invasion in here? 18:28:01 no 18:28:04 just in the topic 18:28:22 Topic's logged too 18:28:34 iiuc 18:28:54 (Because I totally should be talking about security) 18:29:05 what does that 12345678^&! in the topic mean? 18:29:05 you forgot the agora-business archives 18:29:10 looks like befunge code to me 18:29:16 yes it's befunge code. 18:29:18 except it makes no sense as such 18:29:30 elliott, well but what else is it? 18:29:32 Now I made a shorter proof of Peirce's law 18:29:37 Vorpal: befunge code 18:29:39 also 18:29:40 trefunge code 18:29:45 By eliminating one step 18:29:45 Vorpal: elliott's numrow 18:29:50 Sgeo|web, oh 18:29:52 Probably 18:29:56 still not fixed? 18:29:56 also unefunge code 18:30:01 elliott, not unefunge 18:30:05 yes unefunge 18:30:05 ^ is not in unefunge 18:30:11 it is it just reflects 18:30:15 well yeah 18:30:20 perfectly ok to reflect 18:30:27 fair enough 18:32:53 By that argument everything is *funge 18:33:25 Naturally 18:34:04 elliott: are you 9 and 0 keys working or something? 18:34:06 Deewiant: echo 'echo "$1: Befunge code"' >/usr/bin/file 18:34:10 Yep 18:34:18 Yep 18:35:31 elliott, you forgot #!/bin/sh in that 18:35:34 or it won't work 18:35:38 Vorpal: Wrong 18:35:43 elliott, oh? 18:35:45 I forgot chmod +x though 18:35:58 elliott@katia:~$ echo 'echo "$1: Befunge code"' >file 18:35:58 elliott@katia:~$ chmod +x file 18:35:58 elliott@katia:~$ ./file file 18:35:58 file: Befunge code 18:35:58 elliott@katia:~$ 18:36:12 how comes that work? 18:36:15 it makes no sense 18:36:21 and is that portable by POSIX? 18:36:46 * elliott lets Vorpal figure out how the shell works. 18:37:03 it is a mystery! 18:37:07 elliott, hm maybe it won't work when executed by exec()? 18:37:34 elliott: How's your compiler going? 18:37:39 elliott, yeah executing it under strace for example fails 18:37:46 shachaf: I've been busy subverting democracy. 18:37:53 I met edwardk yesterday and he told me all about the type checker that he's writing to procrastinate on making slides for his trifecta talk. 18:38:04 elliott, so clearly it won't work for a /usr/bin/file, since it can only be executed from a shell 18:40:19 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: nites). 18:40:37 Vorpal: It *should* work just fine, actually. 18:41:02 pikhq, hm 18:41:18 If it's not a valid executable, POSIX mandates that exec shall pass the program to the shell. 18:41:26 It does not mandate #!. 18:41:31 heh, really? 18:41:37 #! is not POSIX. 18:41:41 :) 18:41:42 how strange 18:41:52 pikhq, is it SuS though? 18:42:00 if not then SuS sucks badly 18:42:02 Yes. 18:42:08 The "invalid executables go to the shell" is at least historical UNIX behavior. 18:42:12 Erm, wait. 18:42:15 No, #! is not SuS. 18:42:19 wtf 18:42:36 Where is SuS defined these days btw? I haven't seen a SuS for POSIX 2008 yet 18:45:03 SuS is this: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/toc.htm 18:45:16 With XSI and a few other POSIX-specified options mandated. 18:45:38 (FSC, TSA, TSH, TSS, UP, and XSI) 18:45:59 I think oerjan should correct the reference to the Astrolog program that he has on Agora Nomic's [First Speaker's message event's] Horoscope 18:46:40 pikhq, so the POSIX.1-2008 spec basically contains SuS? 18:47:16 Yes. 18:47:30 zzo38: oerjan is not online 18:47:44 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:47:54 Vorpal: posix has always included sus since 2001 18:48:03 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 18:48:07 hm okay 18:48:53 -!- nooga has joined. 18:52:41 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:53:01 -!- augur has joined. 18:57:01 Wow, r/AskScience modding has become aggressive as hell. 18:57:12 howso 19:03:50 elliott, go to front page. Look at thread. Note how half the comments in thread are deleted. 19:04:02 not afaict 19:04:07 anyway, they're a default reddit now 19:04:08 It's no more aggressive 19:04:11 it just means more people are making stupid comments 19:04:14 Yep 19:04:15 rather than more comments being deleted 19:04:18 Same difference. 19:04:21 no it's not 19:04:30 if your policy is to delete everything with an objective stupidity rating of at least N 19:04:40 and being a default reddit causes a thousand times more comments that satisfy that 19:04:42 Same. Difference. 19:04:47 your moderation hasn't gotten any more aggressive at all 19:04:52 no it isn't, I just literally explained now it isn't 19:05:00 Same. 19:05:03 Difference. 19:05:07 elliott: Then tell oerjan when they are online. 19:05:31 zzo38: you do it; there's ?tell 19:05:43 fungot: Tell oerjan whatever it was that you were supposed to, when e's online. 19:05:44 fizzie: rosa. why she hath a face of her owne distresse, or like to men prowd of destruction, defie vs to our shape, if this you purpose as ye speak, diana's temple is not distant far, where you shold but hunt with modest warrant 19:05:47 Phantom_Hoover: are you deliberately trying to be stubborn in the face of anyone explaining why you're wrong 19:06:03 because nobody really cares if you think the policy is more aggressive if you're just going to say same difference whenever anyone says it's not 19:06:16 No, I'm in a room which is about 30° too hot and I'm trying to watch Spaced. 19:12:17 meh 19:12:44 * nooga just finished watching whole EtosLab channel on yt 19:15:02 Same. Difference. <-- how? elliott's argument makes perfect sense 19:15:39 Except in the sense that it failed to account for equality of differences. 19:15:49 nooga, is there anything particularly good. 19:15:56 Phantom_Hoover, because there isn't any equality of differences 19:16:04 RACIST 19:16:18 that doesn't even make any sense 19:16:23 One thing I might make a METAFONT program for various astrological/astronomical symbols, and some additional symbols such as the phase of the moon (for printing calendars); symbols for solar system objects, including variant glyphs (like Astrolog supports), zodiac, fictitious objects, aspects, Ophiucus, etc 19:16:24 Phantom_Hoover: he does some nice contraptions 19:16:30 like EMP 19:16:45 Huh, how does that work? 19:16:48 nooga, got a link to any good video? 19:18:19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKJA2suBc7s&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLFD1682F2801E7ADF 19:18:20 nooga, I don't even get any relevant results googling for "EtosLab", just some facebook stuff 19:18:27 (So it would include some that Astrolog does not have, such as Ophiucus, and the descending lunar node, and phase of moon symbols (like those used on calendars). Am I missing anything?) 19:18:28 ethos* 19:18:36 nooga, oh right, I copy pasted what you said 19:18:41 typo 19:18:45 *Etho's. 19:19:19 oh mc vidoes 19:20:00 * elliott hoped nooga meant real EMP. 19:20:09 "And now to try it on my city." 19:20:19 I was thinking it'd disable all redstone circuitry. 19:20:26 XD 19:20:30 also this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasmotjs0NA&feature=BFa&list=UUFKDEp9si4RmHFWJW1vYsMA&lf=plcp 19:20:32 I'd fit one on the ROU. 19:20:44 when he ties to beat Vechs' adventure maps 19:21:32 this guy is quite smart and definately does unique stuff based on his own research 19:25:58 btw 19:26:04 anyone tried Terraria? :D 19:28:53 nooga, yes 19:29:00 nooga, kind of different from mc really 19:29:26 while it might look like a 2D minecraft on the surface it is actually very different in gameplay 19:29:56 i tried to watch some LPs but it looks soo boring 19:30:08 they stay on the surface all the time and fight slimes 19:30:08 Hmm, I wonder if you could disable redstone circuits remotely. 19:30:12 Without TNT or anything. 19:30:45 maybe pistons? 19:30:53 push blocks with redstone wiring 19:32:20 No, completely remotely. 19:32:31 With no access to the target. 19:32:45 impossible unless there is a bug in the server 19:33:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 19:33:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 19:33:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 19:33:23 Well, if torch burnouts were global rather than local... 19:33:46 D: 19:34:17 Phantom_Hoover, ouch 19:34:29 Phantom_Hoover, thankfully it isn't 19:36:22 i like the new terrain generator 19:36:43 I don't. 19:36:54 why? 19:37:04 It's too artificial. 19:37:47 I like certain of the concepts *in* the new terrain generator. 19:37:55 Most obviously, larger biomes. 19:38:09 ravines are a bit too common 19:38:21 Look at the biome interfaces. 19:38:22 But, yeah, certain other things make it seem much *less* real. 19:38:31 Such as, yes, biome interfaces. 19:38:42 biome interwhat? 19:38:45 They're extremely sharp; the Perlin moisture/temperature stuff has clearly been altered. 19:38:51 ah 19:39:16 yeah, the new stuff is annoying 19:39:25 but hey 19:39:36 I'm still on 1.7.3, partly because of that but mostly because I use the technic pack 19:39:56 how realistic can you get in a game in which everything is made from huge cubes 19:40:01 who cares about realism 19:40:09 they stay on the surface all the time and fight slimes <-- try watching the TotalBiscuit videos of it. They are funny 19:40:18 ah, the brit? 19:40:35 It's not realism I care about; it's the fact that it's blatantly artificial. 19:41:02 but amusing 19:41:07 nooga, yeah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lypSNqYE5XY for example 19:41:11 nooga, but yeah. 19:42:01 nooga, it doesn't amuse me when it's what you'd expect from someone with WorldEdit. 19:43:42 Phantom_Hoover: example? 19:43:54 Look at the new mountains. 19:44:05 The sides are too... smooth. 19:44:33 Also, recently Minecraft has been making some diversions from the aesthetic. 19:44:46 Chests that aren't 1 m^3 and open... 19:44:50 Square moon and sun... 19:45:01 pikhq, the square moon and sun are still there, no? 19:45:07 anyway it is texture pack dependent 19:45:11 Vorpal, not in 1.9pre3. 19:45:14 *4 19:45:14 Phantom_Hoover, ouch 19:45:31 pikhq, btw I don't have anything against opening chest. The smaller chest though... 19:45:55 *Especially* since the animation seems to have made the break animation not work. 19:46:09 pikhq, ouch? 19:46:28 Y'know how blocks show cracks as you break them? 19:46:31 Chests don't. 19:47:07 ouch 19:50:53 I liked the old chest size 19:50:55 what? My USB 3.0 controller is using IRQ 4294967277? 19:51:00 does that even exist!? 19:51:14 ._. 19:51:30 No, there's hardly any IRQ lines. 19:51:47 pikhq, maybe MSI? 19:51:53 Grand total of 15 IRQs. 19:51:58 um.. 19:51:59 Erm, 16. 19:52:03 my GPU is- oh 19:52:11 pikhq, actually there are plenty of things up to IRQ 23 here 19:52:13 well, when I had ubuntu my GPU was IRQ19 19:52:18 and then the big jump 19:52:52 and on my laptop I have up to IRQ 49: http://sprunge.us/PGGT 19:53:02 from ls /proc/irq/ 19:53:38 $ ls /proc/irq 19:53:38 0 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 20 23 3 4 43 44 5 6 7 8 9 default_smp_affinity 19:53:53 pikhq, so there might be a grand total of 16 historically but that no longer seems to be the case 19:54:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:54:16 nevertheless, that IRQ 4294967277 to IRQ 4294967293 that my USB 3 controller is using... wtf 19:54:27 sorry, up to 4294967292 19:54:48 4294967293 is used by my intel gbit ethernet and 4294967294 by my GPU 19:55:02 .-. 19:55:08 Anything beyond that is straight-up lies. 19:55:17 The IRQ lines are *physical lines*. 19:55:30 pikhq, you forgot about message signalled interrupts 19:55:45 Admittedly, modern x86 is a habitual liar. 19:55:56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_Signaled_Interrupts 19:56:34 I think oerjan should correct the reference to the Astrolog program that he has on Agora Nomic's [First Speaker's message event's] Horoscope 19:56:34 oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 19:57:25 well i would, but i have this strange nostalgic feeling about files with pre-millennium date stamps 19:58:13 (that means no.) 19:58:15 You can fake datestamps :) 19:58:24 BUT THIS ONE IS REAL 19:59:16 pikhq, MSI allows more than 16 interrupts. Because they are no longer physical lines 19:59:31 wait argh 19:59:46 oerjan: O, OK, so that is why. Then put a separate file on the main page, next to the link for that horoscope, a note about the link for Astrolog being invalid 20:00:05 oerjan: see, he has solutions to all your problems :) 20:00:25 zzo38: actually my protest is void 20:00:36 i just realized i edited the file back in 2007 :P 20:00:48 oerjan: OK. 20:02:10 actually i think i'll make a new parenthetical remark, and let the main text stand 20:03:51 oerjan: OK, do that; perhaps that will help. 20:04:27 Vorpal: Habitual. Liar. 20:04:31 elliott, you mentioned those useless fsck of ext3/4, well one just happened to me, on /usr. Took all of 5 seconds. 20:04:54 pikhq, they are accurate. Due to MSI. 20:05:05 pikhq, what is it that you don't understand about MSI? 20:05:26 Vorpal: they take a lot more than five seconds 20:05:38 Vorpal: The bit where it pretends to be physical lines off of the CPU. 20:05:39 elliott, not for me. 20:05:42 Vorpal: lucky you 20:05:49 pikhq, where did they pretend that? 20:05:56 By having IRQ numbers. 20:06:13 pikhq, well then there is the APIC 20:06:30 ok fixed 20:06:31 the APIC goes up to at least 23 according to /proc/interrupts 20:06:36 Just like certain things pretend to be the 8086 system bus. 20:07:16 anyway rebooting from freebsd to linux changed the IRQ numbering on my desktop. I no longer have those extreme numbers 20:07:19 pikhq, http://sprunge.us/MUNd 20:07:26 is what I see from linux on my desktop 20:08:08 on my laptop that same file: http://sprunge.us/XAKE 20:08:28 See? Lies and deceit. 20:09:16 pikhq, I get another interrupts on my desktop once I start X11. Seems like fglrx adds it on demand. It shows up as 62. 20:09:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:09:35 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 20:09:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:09:52 pikhq, I guess freebsd and linux simply allocates the dynamic interrupts required differently. 20:10:19 pikhq, anyway MSI-style interrupts have numbers too 20:10:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:10:52 pikhq, so claiming they are lying by being numbered, as you did above, is not true. 20:11:02 By being IRQ numbered. 20:11:24 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:11:49 pikhq, uh... So what would you suggest instead? 20:12:08 Nuking x86. 20:12:09 * oerjan is briefly reminded that IRQ used to be a chat program. ihrc. 20:12:51 ICQ. 20:12:58 OSX default compiler toolchain sucks badly when it comes to osdev 20:13:11 s/ when .*// 20:13:23 OS X default compiler toolchain is, uh, fairly mundane GNU. 20:13:25 s/ default compiler toolchain// 20:13:27 pikhq: it's also ancient 20:13:43 imagine my face when i discovered that ld produces ONLY Mach-O 20:13:46 ... 20:13:55 Custom ld? 20:13:59 pikhq, apart from that 20:14:08 Vorpal: Nothing. 20:14:10 huh, well 20:14:14 the rest is llvm-gcc 20:14:27 pikhq, you would end up with the MSI style interrupts on any modern CPU architecture 20:14:34 oh wait am i thinking of icq 20:14:35 but i had to compile my own toolchain and put it in opt 20:14:37 that made sense for a desktop style usage 20:14:48 oerjan, icq? Wasn't that some old IM thingy? 20:14:54 Vorpal: You wouldn't end up with it implemented on top of an interface for 16 wires coming off of the CPU. 20:14:54 nooga: the rest is gcc 20:14:56 or clang 20:15:05 I don't know that llvm-gcc gets any real use on OS X. 20:15:09 clang for all userland applications, definitely 20:15:14 Vorpal: that was the _point_ 20:15:15 Just like you would have a system bus on any modern CPU architecture, but you wouldn't come up with the 8086 system bus. 20:15:18 clang -> llvm 20:15:36 pikhq, well okay 20:15:45 also 20:15:49 also, try to search for "irq" chat shows just how obnoxious google is these days - it _corrects_ it, even with the quotes 20:15:52 i hate xcode way of doing things 20:16:24 it took me 2 days to figure out how to make a form with a button that would change it's text when clicked 20:16:35 its* 20:16:36 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:16:43 oh hm that's only in instant, it works if i press return 20:17:27 oerjan, ouch 20:17:39 i'm still divided on whether i hate google instant or find it convenient. 20:17:57 (you may know the 8086 system bus as "ISA" or "IDE" or "ATA") 20:18:01 oerjan, yeah better to use a different search engine such as DDG. Btw I have nothing against Google saying "did you mean" even with quotes. As long as it doesn't auto correct 20:18:02 it depends a bit on how much my laptop is thrashing :/ 20:18:39 oerjan, trashing? You need more ram 20:18:51 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:18:55 oerjan, how old is that laptop? 20:19:04 2006 20:19:08 ah 20:19:17 it wasn't a top model even then 20:19:21 besides I find laptops unergonomic. Pain in the neck if I use one for a long time 20:19:30 -!- myndzi has quit (Client Quit). 20:19:32 Vorpal: did you mean is fine. but it now often does it the other way around, so you need to click to get the real thing 20:19:41 yeah 20:19:43 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:19:54 oerjan, definitely switch to DDG 20:20:06 and what's worse, google instant is somewhat buggy when you do click 20:20:17 ouch 20:20:41 oerjan, DDG has a very useful info box on top of searches too: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=MSI 20:20:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:20:44 check that out 20:20:49 if you used the suggestion menu, it doesn't get what you selected but what you typed 20:21:10 click computing to expand that and find Message Signalled Interrupts 20:21:38 oerjan, and it does W|A 20:21:42 and a lot more 20:22:08 oerjan, basically it is what google should be. And should it not find anything useful you can just add !g at the start of your search to make it go to google 20:23:14 oerjan, anyway, have I convinced you to switch yet? You can turn off the ads in the prefs btw. If you don't want to support DDG :P 20:23:56 oh and it is anon, no personalised search results apart from setting region in preferences (if you want to). 20:24:10 hm 20:25:50 Is this list sufficient? http://sprunge.us/FATD 20:26:07 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:27:16 oerjan, I have convinced you to switch yet? 20:27:36 zzo38, ... what is it? 20:27:49 what LANGUAGE is it? 20:28:01 oh tex I guess 20:28:13 Vorpal: It is a (incomplete) METAFONT program. So far I just put the names and numbers of the characters in the font. 20:28:30 well, I don't think there are any METAFONT experts here 20:28:52 why would anyone use METAFONT these days. You can use Type1 with pdftex and TTF with xetex 20:28:54 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:28:54 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:28:58 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 20:29:23 Vorpal: i've opened it. no promises. 20:29:41 You don't need to know about METAFONT; I am asking if you think there are sufficient symbols listed in there (for all planets, phase of moon, etc). 20:29:46 -!- ive has joined. 20:29:59 oerjan, give it a try. elliott recommended it 20:30:12 And I don't want to use pdftex, Type1, XeTeX; I also think METAFONT is a good program to design typefaces, in general. 20:30:15 no clue 20:30:18 as a first impression, i miss a tool tip on that looking glass button 20:30:29 Vorpal: I do not implicitly support your recommendations. 20:30:43 elliott, of course not. But you recommended it to me 20:30:46 that is all I'm saying 20:30:56 elliott, if you dispute that, go check the channel logs 20:31:10 Diggy diggy hole. 20:31:17 i suppose they really want to be minimalist 20:31:20 elliott, you watched too much yogscast 20:31:36 oerjan, mail the guy behind it if you really need a tooltip saying "search" :P He tends to respond 20:31:46 oerjan, and it is "him" not "they". It is a one-guy project 20:31:50 Vorpal: Even if *you* don't like METAFONT, I still prefer METAFONT and with DVI output and so on. 20:31:55 Vorpal: I haven't even seen that episode. 20:32:02 And in my opinion it is superior. 20:32:10 elliott, come on. Simon says "Diggy diggy hole" quite often. 20:32:27 I haven't watched since the beginning of the second season. 20:32:33 elliott, okay 20:34:34 I've only really watched them messing around with mods since then. 20:34:47 ah 20:35:12 pikhq, I tend to watch everything but the HoN videos. Because those tend to not be very funny, and HoN doesn't interest me 20:35:31 I tried to watch SoI, I really did. 20:36:02 Phantom_Hoover, it is quite nice 20:36:20 I missed the beginning, haven't bothered to go back. You get into the plot quite easily 20:36:25 No, it's far far more cocking around than is interesting. 20:36:47 I think METAFONT is far better than any other program for typeface designing that I know of. 20:37:16 It can be used to design logos, too. 20:38:41 Phantom_Hoover: Cocking around is interesting; scripting isn't 20:39:19 elliott, cocking around on the part of the scriptwriters. 20:42:42 No, it's far far more cocking around than is interesting. <-- still funny tough 20:43:00 but they clearly have some server mods for special effects 20:43:07 and client mods too I think 20:46:45 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:53:06 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 20:53:26 -!- Sgeo|web_ has joined. 20:54:15 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:55:46 -!- Vorpal has joined. 20:59:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 21:09:48 http://i.imgur.com/gTXgm.png Because a captcha should be OCR-able. 21:12:02 But if the OCR bot knows about the all-new Chevy Sonic, who cares? 21:12:31 :P 21:14:58 i saw one of those things recently and raged hardcore 21:15:06 it wanted me to enter not one, but two things 21:15:18 and one required watching the video (i mean advertisement) 21:15:29 what it amounts to is that nobody really understands what a captcha is for, it's just a hoop they jump through 21:15:34 so one hoop is much the same as another to them 21:15:42 and these fuckers are taking advantage of it 21:15:42 :| 21:16:34 It _is_ just a hoop you jump through. 21:16:51 well yes, but in some contexts it serves a useful purpose 21:17:07 it's just that many computer users don't understand when it's legitimately useful 21:17:14 advertising CAPTCHAs are enough to make me not use a site 21:17:22 because 1) many site owners don't seem to understand, they just throw that shit up there because it's "in" 21:17:29 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:17:34 and 2) they don't really understand what it's for and how it's supposed to accomplish its goal 21:17:52 -!- tiffany has joined. 21:18:47 A captcha is actually a darned good thing if done right, in the right context. 21:19:01 aaa I hate capchas 21:19:10 I don't understand the advertising component either; isn't frustrating potential customers counter to the goal, or are most people totally okay with them 21:19:13 tiffany: you like spambots more? 21:19:18 tiffany contributes to discussion. 21:19:19 Sadly, even with reCAPTCHA, people manage to fuck it up. 21:19:20 spambots are my bros 21:19:31 fun spambots 21:19:36 And, of course, doing it in the right context is easy to fuck up if you're ignorant. 21:19:38 monqy, ah, but they remember you as those people who annoyed you! 21:19:53 Brand recognition! 21:20:08 they annoyed me now i want to buy all their product 21:20:08 It's kind of obvious when someone joins your forum and starts spamming under the counter drugs without a prescribtion things 21:20:19 and it's kind of obvious to push the "purge posts" and "ip ban" buttons 21:21:00 people put up with captchas in the same way they put up with every other annoying thing that consumers allow companies to get away with 21:21:02 Hmm. I wonder if anyone's set up a Bayesian filter for forums. 21:21:10 I dislike CAPTCHAs too but there are many other ways to prevent spambots. 21:21:14 kilowatt-hour, what a stupid unit... Unless I missed out on something it is just 3600 kilojoule. 21:21:24 Vorpal, yes, yes it is. 21:21:31 in the case of captchas, since most of the people involved don't know what they are really about, they don't understand when they're being taken advantage of (advertising "captchas") 21:21:31 I'd prefer to ask a simple logic question 21:21:35 It's also an easy unit to work with for domestic power consumption. 21:21:39 tiffany, ahahahahaha 21:21:41 so they don't know the difference between that and real captchas 21:21:48 Anyways. I'd say the easiest way to use a captcha scheme to block spambots is to use it for account registration. 21:21:50 Yes, because computers are really terrible at simple logic questions! 21:21:51 It's kind of obvious when someone joins your forum and starts spamming under the counter drugs without a prescribtion things 21:21:51 and it's kind of obvious to push the "purge posts" and "ip ban" buttons 21:21:58 tiffany has never heard of blogs. 21:22:06 ..? 21:22:07 Or, indeed, anything that gets any kind of volume of traffic at all. 21:22:10 Hmm. I wonder if anyone's set up a Bayesian filter for forums. 21:22:11 tiffany has never heard of RSI. 21:22:14 pikhq: StupidFilter; it was stupid 21:22:18 pikhq: you can pay people to sign up all kinds of accounts in bulk for cheap 21:22:19 Though this screws up blog comments a bit. 21:22:35 but that doesn't mean i think that every post form should have a captcha, for example 21:22:38 if there's enough spambots that you can't keep up then something is horribly wrong 21:22:44 I have gotten spam messages on blog, but since I made a new one on gopher, it stops making spam message 21:22:45 there are other things you can do to make it not worth a person's time to spam your shit 21:22:49 Phantom_Hoover, nevertheless Joule makes more sense to me than watt*hour. Because W*h = (J/s)*s*3600 basically. 21:22:51 tiffany: Then the Internet is horribly wrong. 21:22:58 those s cancel each other 21:23:08 Vorpal, it's a calculation thing. 21:23:19 Vorpal, it's a humans-suck-at-units thing. 21:23:28 Appliances have power consumptions in watts, and tend to be run on timescales on the order of hours. 21:23:31 pikhq, hm okay 21:23:42 "Kilometers per hour" is also a really silly unit. 21:23:46 I kind of don't care about spam 21:23:53 tiffany: yes, because everyone else cares about it for you 21:23:55 pikhq, why? 21:23:55 look at your spam folder sometime 21:24:02 it's nearly empty 21:24:03 pikhq, hm. Why? 21:24:06 Phantom_Hoover: There's a perfectly good SI unit. 21:24:10 Meters/second. 21:24:13 tiffany: then nobody knows your email 21:24:14 well yeah 21:24:19 other ways to avoid spam 21:24:20 - become a hermit 21:24:20 that is better indeed 21:24:34 I get an email every so often from some guy saying he's from hong kong and wants to give me a million dollars 21:24:44 and goes by the name "wing wang" 21:24:46 tiffany: You probably have the world's most amazingly unknown email address. 21:24:52 tiffany@physibots.info 21:24:55 :I 21:25:00 pikhq, I guess km/s would make sense though Or mm/s. But not x/h 21:25:02 I do not even have a spam folter. 21:25:15 tiffany: Congrats, your spam should skyrocket. 21:25:15 yahoo must like, sell off lists of email addresses 21:25:16 how i have dealt with spam for going on 10 years: 21:25:20 register domain name 21:25:24 catchall address 21:25:31 siteimregisteringon.com@domain.com 21:25:35 pikhq, eh, the logs for here aren't crawled to my knowledge. 21:25:45 tiffany, stupid... the channel is logged in public 21:25:46 i know where every e-mail is sourced that way 21:25:47 I have an SMTP server but I turn it off most of the time so that whenever anyone tries to send a spam message, they will get error message about not reachable server. 21:25:50 tiffany: If I put that on the esolang wiki, your spam folder would be huge within a day. 21:25:51 based on what it gets sent to :) 21:25:57 =/ 21:26:06 pikhq: I dunno if spambots would get text/plain 21:26:11 myndzi, that makes sense. I thought about doing that too. 21:26:17 how do people even make money off of spambots? 21:26:17 never got around to it 21:26:23 it got me in a little trouble the other day actually, lol 21:26:28 myndzi, oh? 21:26:29 i placed an online order for a towncar to take me to the airport 21:26:38 and the guy almost dropped my registration because he thought it was fake 21:26:39 tiffany: If 1 in a billion people fall for it, they get 1 hit. 21:26:44 ... 21:26:45 At least 1, sorry. 21:26:50 (i never bought domain privacy because it didn't exist when i registered the domain - so it's got false info) 21:26:58 I see 21:26:58 he was medium-smart 21:27:02 And spam is so fucking cheap that they probably make a profit off of that. 21:27:18 `addquote I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive. 21:27:21 And the hit rates are probably a bit closer to 1 in a few million. 21:27:21 that is, he understood what i was doing, but he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that i'd paid him $60 for the reservation and that should be enough 21:27:22 690) I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive. 21:27:29 It should take computational power to be able to send email 21:27:34 tiffany: see hashcash 21:27:35 like, have to do a proof of work or something 21:27:37 he was all flighty until i gave him my "real" e-mail address (actually a secondary one) 21:27:50 pikhq, I guess km/s would make sense though Or mm/s. But not x/h <-- it makes sense when you want to estimate how long time it will take you to drive somewhere without having to convert seconds to hours, which non-nerds probably find annoying 21:27:54 i mean, he was smart enough to know what was going on and do a WHOIS of my domain, but he put stock in e-mail as an authenticating factor? wtf. 21:27:56 tiffany, this has been considered. Never was a hit. Because not everyone was using it 21:28:07 oerjan, *everyone* finds that annoying. 21:28:24 People who *enjoy* doing arithmetic are rare, to say the least. 21:28:30 oerjan, heh 21:28:34 Phantom_Hoover, well yeah 21:28:39 I know someone who does 21:28:51 i enjoy calculating things in my head :| 21:29:04 oerjan: *Clearly* we should reform humans so that SI is trivial. 21:29:15 And so we can use only base units, instead of derived. 21:29:24 oerjan, with making sense I meant "sense in context of the SI system" 21:29:44 Volt? BAH! 21:29:50 kg m^2/A s^3 21:29:54 XD 21:30:22 (as an aside, I rather dislike the use of kg as a base unit) 21:30:27 Why? 21:30:29 pikhq, you beat me to that 21:30:41 It's the only base unit that has a prefix. 21:30:51 we should rename kg to g. Then it would all work 21:31:00 Nononono, you have it wrong. 21:31:15 All the *other* base units have antiprefixes. 21:31:21 what 21:31:28 Also, the ampere is far too large. 21:31:33 pikhq, is it? 21:31:42 Vorpal: we should rename kg to g. Then it would all work 21:31:46 Vorpal: except that all the derived units would suck 21:31:58 elliott, no, because they all use kg currently rather than g 21:32:12 elliott, so it would simply things 21:32:27 Vorpal: Milliampere is about the right size. 21:32:36 Vorpal: uh 21:32:40 pikhq, it would complicate derived units 21:32:45 elliott, because kg is the base unit 21:32:52 Meh! 21:32:55 oh, rename 21:32:58 elliott, yes 21:32:58 dumb :p 21:33:02 elliott, you are yes 21:33:10 at least atm 21:33:11 how witty + original 21:34:03 Vorpal: Still, the ampere is effing huge. 21:34:07 pikhq, anyway I worked with A rather than mA sometimes. I admit that mA is more common in electronics. 21:34:20 but not in high energy electrics 21:34:39 Domestic circuitry isn't going to hit more than 20 A. 21:34:43 pikhq, indeed 21:34:57 pikhq, I seen kA about once iirc 21:35:51 pikhq, actually I think this house has a 25 A main fuse or such. But then it is fairly large and you need a lot of heating in Sweden during the winter. 21:35:57 might be 20 A, not sure 21:35:58 Also, the ampere is far too large. <-- well compared to the tesla... 21:36:30 I'mma get this client 21:36:31 oerjan, what about the Coulomb? 21:36:34 it is huge too 21:36:34 Units are hard. 21:36:35 http://sourceforge.net/projects/pennypost/ 21:37:03 that looks like hashcash except stupid 21:37:06 There was a 2T magnetic field in one place at CERN. 21:37:06 tiffany, it rather hinges on everyone else you communicate with using it as well 21:37:20 by stupid, I mean it doesn't have a wikipedia article 21:37:21 and hashcash does 21:37:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:37:36 elliott, this client was referenced by the wikipedia page on hashcash 21:37:40 oh 21:37:45 anyway, it doesn't matter 21:37:48 proof of work has failed 21:38:09 # The amount of charge that travels through a lightning bolt is typically around 15 C, although large bolts can be up to 350 C.[11] 21:38:09 # The amount of charge that travels through a typical alkaline AA battery is about 5 kC = 5000 C = 1400 mAh. After that charge has flowed, the battery must be discarded or recharged.[12] 21:38:13 that much in a battery!? 21:38:38 No, Vorpal. 21:38:48 Phantom_Hoover, oh? 21:38:50 That's the amount that moves through it over its lifetime. 21:38:55 Phantom_Hoover, well yes 21:39:00 Phantom_Hoover, I'm still surprised 21:39:02 It's effectively a meaningless number. 21:39:13 hm 21:39:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field) "strongest pulsed magnetic field yet obtained in a laboratory, destroying the used equipment, but not the laboratory itself" 21:39:20 The best. 21:39:24 yeah it only makes sense for capacitators 21:39:27 fizzie: :D 21:39:33 (Well, not /quite/.) 21:39:49 elliott: Apparently the clarification is necessary, since presumably the one stronger number there did destroy the lab too. 21:39:57 (It's tied to the amount of reactive stuff in the battery by Faraday's constant, which is 96kC/mol. 21:40:00 *) 21:40:04 (As it is just "strongest (pulsed) magnetic field ever obtained (with explosives) in a laboratory".) 21:40:21 "strongest (pulsed) magnetic field ever obtained (with explosives) in a laboratory (VNIIEF in Sarov, Russia, 1998)[11]" <-- presumably the lab was destroyed then? 21:40:51 fizzie, how do you do it with explosives? 21:41:22 "This device consists of a generator solenoid (the first cascade) with internal and external diameters of 175 mm and 200 mm respectively and a length of 500 mm, and two internal cascades with diameters of 28×35 mm and 12×17 mm and a length of ~200 mm. One-cascade system of explosive compression, consisting of the main HE-charge with diameters of 360×650 mm, a length of 350 mm and a mass of ~170 kg, steel cylinder-impactor with an external diameter of 356 mm an 21:41:33 .. and internal HE-charge with diameters of 200×300 mm and a length of 280 mm, is located on the outside of the solenoid. The MC-1 generator solenoid is powered with a current of 4-5 MA. MC-1 generator operation time (without powering time and HE-charge detonation time) is about 15 μs, maximum liner implosion velocity is more than 6 km/s, the magnetic field derivative reaches values of ~5 1013 Gs/s. The diameter of the final field volume is 24 mm, its length 21:41:33 is ~100 mm" 21:41:37 Like that, apparently. 21:41:47 heh 21:42:15 fizzie, I 21:42:35 I'm* just wondering how the explosion leads to magnetism. Physically I mean 21:43:01 Moving components at a high enough speed to generate a field, it seems. 21:43:34 (How big is the B-field vector in, say, a gamma ray photon, though?) 21:44:31 -!- derdon has joined. 21:47:18 hm 21:47:22 Phantom_Hoover, interesting point 21:48:01 -!- nooga has joined. 21:49:45 I'm not actually sure if it's possible to work it out. 21:51:14 oh? 21:51:21 I'm no physics expert though 21:52:08 um 21:52:14 there's a lot of things that make magnetic fields o.o 21:52:38 Oh, duh, it's variable. 21:52:39 For instance: magnets. 21:52:56 like pushing water through a cylinder, or a moon-sized sphere of 30 million psi iron rotating inside of an ocean of molten iron and nickel 21:53:23 Pushing water through a cylinder does not, to my knowledge, produce a magnetic field. 21:53:33 meh 21:53:36 I read it somewhere 21:54:12 Phantom_Hoover, ah 21:54:13 It's diamagnetic, so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. 21:56:02 * Phantom_Hoover → crappier part of Ireland^W this village. 21:56:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:08:43 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:09:24 -!- augur has joined. 22:09:40 -!- Ngevd has joined. 22:10:11 Hello! 22:10:26 ais523, wiki spam 22:10:36 oh nose! 22:10:50 the captchas are sinking! 22:10:52 Oh Big Nose in the Sky. 22:11:33 zangband vs adom ? 22:12:22 Ngevd: deleted 22:12:27 Hurrah! 22:16:01 > unwords $ repeat "spam" `interleave` cycle ["wonderful", "tasty"] `interleave` repeat "spam" 22:16:02 "spam spam wonderful spam spam spam tasty spam spam spam wonderful spam spa... 22:16:38 lambdabot: you are not spammy enough 22:18:09 :t replicateM 22:18:10 forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a] 22:18:21 `log replicateM 22:18:30 @log replicateM 22:18:30 Maybe you meant: bug do let msg yow 22:18:47 2011-07-17.txt:13:49:22: there are probably many sets of interesting strings you could construct with the [0..] >>= (`replicateM` alphabet) thing. 22:19:57 oh my. 22:20:05 @yow 22:20:06 Couldn't find fortune file 22:20:07 zangband vs adom ? <-- nethack 22:20:13 naaa 22:20:21 nooga, hack! 22:20:24 rouge! 22:20:42 ntoo spartan 22:20:52 nooga, Slash'EM then 22:21:00 with a GUI frontend and fancy tileset 22:21:10 nooga, you can't get less spartan than that 22:21:42 oh dear i think they got (co)pumpkin http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-October/096262.html 22:21:42 :t alphabet 22:21:43 Not in scope: `alphabet' 22:22:35 > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` ['a'..'z']) 22:22:36 ["","a","b","c","d","e","f","g","h","i","j","k","l","m","n","o","p","q","r"... 22:23:04 A too ...y example there. 22:23:18 > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` ['a'..'b']) 22:23:19 ["","a","b","aa","ab","ba","bb","aaa","aab","aba","abb","baa","bab","bba","... 22:23:20 fizzie: ...y? 22:23:22 Oh. 22:23:33 interesting. all strings in that alphabet, I see 22:23:51 > ['a'..'z'] 22:23:52 it's now time to flood my base as I fuck up pressure stuff. 22:23:52 "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" 22:24:13 CakeProphet: hey it happens to the best of evil overlords 22:24:29 well, if I install a door. 22:24:33 then I won't flood my base 22:24:39 so, nevermind. 22:24:40 genius! 22:24:52 -!- evincar has joined. 22:25:35 CakeProphet: DF? 22:25:40 CakeProphet: DF? 22:25:47 CakeProphet: IRL? 22:25:49 bd_: DF? 22:26:01 but yeah I think it's IRL guys 22:26:05 you need to spend more time here 22:26:10 lol 22:26:30 yeah currently working on my IRL water system. 22:26:38 complete with floodgates, levels, and cisterns. 22:26:43 *levers 22:26:51 IRL? 22:26:52 and self-destruct button. 22:26:56 nooga: in real life 22:27:02 CakeProphet: remember, water loses pressure when flowing diagonally IRL as well! 22:27:05 <.< 22:27:34 I'm actually going to use a pump system for that, I don't remember why. 22:27:37 CakeProphet: how big it is? 22:27:44 dunno yet. 22:27:44 is it?* 22:28:15 I'm not sure my drain is working. maybe it's taking a long time? 22:28:33 or maybe when I divert sourced water it too becomes sourced water or something? 22:28:34 yeah water is pretty slow, irl i mean 22:28:53 particularly if you have a channel only one dragon wide 22:28:55 the drain in spain is a lousy refrain 22:29:02 Haven't plaid DF in a while 22:29:10 well, it kind of stopped moving, perhaps it doesn't have flow anymore? 22:29:15 Haven't striped it either 22:29:17 So I had a thought today, and I'd like to know if it's a bad thought. 22:29:25 Yes, yes it is 22:29:29 Oh, okay. 22:29:30 I was just about to say 22:29:43 CakeProphet: If it's a single-width channel it will take a _very_ long time to flow any significant distance. 22:29:55 bd_: "one dragon"? 22:30:08 But carry on, evincar 22:30:14 bd_: single width channel as in z-level right? the aqueduct itself is 3 spaces wide, but the downward slopes are only 3-width channel each. 22:30:15 :P 22:30:18 monqy: were you just about to say that too 22:30:32 CakeProphet: yes z-level is totally width 22:30:33 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:43 Well, I was working on a concatenative language, which was turning into Yet Another Forth. 22:30:46 CakeProphet: I was thinking width of the path it's flowing through. 22:31:02 If you're going down levels a single hollowed-out shaft is probably fastest 22:31:05 So I was thinking of alternate structures to use instead of stacks. 22:31:20 And I figured linked-lists, with two special values: "top" and "persistent top". 22:31:22 elliott: DF squares are exactly the same size as a dragon, or a mouse, or any number of any other creature, apparently. 22:31:31 Operations always work on the leftmost "top". 22:31:43 bd_: well, sure :P 22:31:43 Terms to the right of a top aren't evaluated. 22:32:13 elliott: "evincar's idea is going to be bad" premonition 22:32:14 Whereas tops are replaced by stack operations, persistent tops are merely shifted. 22:32:24 bd_: er, how do you dif vertically downwards like that? 22:32:27 *dig 22:32:28 There's always at least one persistent top, at the end of the list. 22:32:49 Ireland 22:32:50 CakeProphet: You start at the level one above the bottom. Channel it out. Then go to the next level up. Repeat. Or just use up/down stairwells all the way down. 22:33:08 With tops you can easily implement prefix and infix operations, and with persistent tops you can implement parentheses. 22:33:29 CakeProphet: The downside is that this will build up a LOT of pressure at the bottom. Make sure you have a system for draining it for maintenance, and tap diagonally 22:33:29 So that's kinda neat, as it doesn't require macros. 22:33:45 I have different idea of roguelike game; with many difference. One is that instead of list of race/class, you must type them in because any creature in the game you can make player character too; and with clases there is also too many. If you omit then it will assume "Human Fighter" if entirely blank, "Human" if race is blank, and "No-class" if class is blank. 22:34:15 And also differences in computation of experience points, item curse, challenge rulesets, spells, etc. 22:34:45 zzo38: the hard part is balancing all those races 22:34:59 * oerjan notes duckduckgo is misspelling its own doodle link 22:35:06 it's not that hard to modify nethack to allow you to start as some arbitrary other race, but then it tends to be either under or overpowered 22:35:37 The more powerful they start, the slower they level 22:36:30 yeah, but then you need to measure how powerful they are and adjust all that 22:36:36 it's not impossible, it's just a lot of work 22:36:48 Sweet, I've struck lemonade 22:36:49 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/72734f3022b8929c/790c0ee267af9750?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=initpoly#790c0ee267af9750 <-- patch for nethack 3.4.1 that does basically that 22:37:00 3.4.0 rather 22:37:14 bd_: In addition, player characters and non-player character follow all the same rules, using the same data structure to represent them. Ngevd: Yes and that can be done too. However, even if you don't, you can keep scores separately for each one so that you use different challenge whatever you want!! Same thing with classes; the classes can also be unbalanced. 22:37:53 (I seem to recall that the races and classes in ADOM were not intended to be perfectl balanced either) 22:38:14 You know what I would like to see? 22:38:25 A multiplayer version of NetHack 22:38:30 Ngevd: as old as the sun 22:38:33 Okay 22:38:40 You know what else I would like to see? 22:38:56 A version of me who could actually play NetHack 22:39:09 You know what I would like to see? 22:39:12 Ngevd: Does Nethack use the same data structures for PCs and NPCs? If not, it seem it will have a lot of trouble working multiplayers at all. 22:39:15 A new version of nethack sometime this century :) 22:39:24 zzo38, I have no idea 22:39:26 the problem with multiplayer nethack is time, as everyone knows. 22:39:35 zzo38: nope, and it assumes it's turn-based and synchronous _everywhere_ 22:39:43 you'd have to rewrite it from scratch 22:39:57 elliott: Yes, time; but you can make a turn-based, possibly a simultaneous turn-based. 22:40:09 bd_: You can have each level having its own time, I suppose. 22:40:19 there's too much code that assumes there's only one player though 22:40:28 wasn't ais523 doing something with acehack about that? 22:40:37 /some/ kind of coop roguelike, anyway 22:40:51 I think it's been done with some variant of angband 22:41:00 Okay, it's still early spring and I've lost an expedition leader 22:41:03 elliott: I was working on a multiplayer AceHack, yes 22:41:05 MAngband 22:41:09 So that people in different levels are making actions independently of others; but if you move up/down the stairs, you must wait for the next turn before continuing. 22:41:11 it isn't finished nor even playable yet, though 22:41:17 bd_: acehack is quite a bit more like nethack, though :P 22:41:23 it's done by using multiple processes, and each process thinks a different person is the lone PC 22:41:42 ais523: and then some really hairy synchronization between them? :) 22:41:50 yep 22:43:15 elliott: I was working on a multiplayer AceHack, yes <-- that is awesome 22:43:23 ais523, how would the interaction work? 22:43:27 ais523: fun. I guess if someone sits at a Yes/No prompt it hangs things for everyone? 22:43:29 wrt turn based and so on 22:43:30 interaction? 22:43:32 bd_: yes 22:43:42 Vorpal: all the players are in the same turn order, while on the same level 22:43:47 hm 22:43:50 that sounds not at all horribly frustrating 22:43:51 each level has its own independent turn order 22:44:01 bd_: well, it's meant for only a few players who are friends 22:44:05 it's not massively multiplayer or anything like that 22:44:08 heh 22:44:09 I don't think each level should have its own independent turn order 22:44:22 still sounds frustrating - hit 4, wait wait wait wait wait okay hit 4 again wait wait wait wait wait 22:44:23 I think that is a good idea 22:44:31 Because then one player could starve to death while another player thinks about hitting a grid bug 22:44:37 Ngevd: looking at your Luigi page, i wish to note that the wolfram 2,3-TM is not directly applicable to proving most languages TC, since it requires infinite setup 22:45:00 oerjan: we told him that already 22:45:09 oh? 22:46:04 * oerjan finds it in the logs 22:56:27 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: goodnight). 22:58:25 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:00:00 I guess since no one objected, my idea isn't complete crap. 23:00:07 So I'ma go implement that. 23:00:33 or it was too crap to comment on 23:14:12 yeah my pipe isn't flowing all the way to the edge of the map 23:14:24 it just things out and takes eons to evaporate. 23:14:29 *thins out 23:15:45 so I guess my drain needs to actually be some kind of pump system. 23:21:35 someone signed my other email up for notices from CARE.org 23:21:35 .-. 23:21:47 tiffany: but you don't care about spam 23:22:25 tiffany: check the headers for an unsubscribe link; if they have one, use it 23:23:35 ais523: unsubscribe links are not usually in headers... 23:23:42 elliott: yes they are 23:23:46 list-unsubscribe: URL 23:23:56 there was a link at the bottom of the page 23:24:07 ais523: you have clearly never received spammy newsletters ebfore 23:24:08 before 23:24:39 elliott: I know, because I told my boss about header checking recently, and he picked a spammy newsletter to test it on 23:24:45 is there even a way to view message headers in thunderbird 23:24:48 then saw the unsubscribe link, followed it, and actually unsubscribed 23:25:21 heh 23:25:49 "View source" in Thunderbird, wasn't it? Haven't used it in a while. 23:26:15 oh 23:26:25 view -> message source 23:27:39 yeah there's no list-unsubscribe 23:28:30 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]). 23:29:20 Ooh, there is one in the email from this hotel chain. 23:29:29 But no list-headers in this Disneyland spam I get after having been there once. 23:31:18 Heh, this one message has a header named "KEY" containing the value "Value". 23:31:56 heh 23:32:20 that is pretty hilarious 23:32:41 hmm, I wonder if you can iterate over the entire symbol table in Perl 23:32:42 -!- sllide has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:32:45 my guess is yes, but I don't know how 23:33:02 use that to put $*hash{key} = 'Value' for every hash 23:40:27 Incidentally, was ais or someone from Cambridge? At this event today we had a Cambridgean (Cambridgeous?) mathematician showing off an authentic Enigma. 23:40:51 birmingham 23:41:11 I is really bad at remembering such things. 23:41:20 I've heard "Cantabridgean", but that is likely only applicable to Cambridge, MA. 23:41:33 It always seems to be some sort of a ham. 23:42:49 "Cantabrigian is an adjective denoting "of, or pertaining to Cambridge", that is, of the University of Cambridge or of the city of Cambridge, England." 23:42:50 pikhq: nope 23:44:16 Okay, well: it also applies to Cambridge, MA. 23:44:52 cambrian mathematicians are such trilobites 23:49:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:49:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:56:25 oerjan, ouch 23:57:15 pikhq, strange m->n in "Cantabridgean" 23:57:48 Vorpal: wait until you hear the one for Oxford students: Oxonian 23:57:57 "The term is derived from Oxonia, the Latin form of Oxenford or Oxford." 23:57:58 hahaha 23:58:05 "The term is derived from Cantabrigia, a medieval Latin name for Cambridge invented on the basis of the Anglo-Saxon name Cantebrigge. (The actual Roman name for Cambridge was Duroliponte.)" 23:58:16 well okay, that makes sense 23:58:29 for some values of sense 23:59:04 elliott, so actually they should be called Duroliponts or some such? 23:59:13 drollipoints 23:59:19 duroliponteans :P 23:59:23 ah 23:59:29 I like oerjan's version 23:59:35 I was joking 23:59:45 elliott, which bit? 23:59:48 "duroliponteans"?