←2011-10-24 2011-10-25 2011-10-26→ ↑2011 ↑all
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01:49:32 <Madoka-Kaname> quintopia, seriously
01:49:34 <Madoka-Kaname> ...
01:49:35 <Madoka-Kaname> ;.;
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03:51:03 <zzo38> I think I managed to make a BarrierT monad that transforms a comonad.
03:51:42 <monqy> oh?
03:52:16 <zzo38> data BarrierT f b w t = UnitT t | BarrierT f (w b -> BarrierT f b w t);
03:52:42 <zzo38> fmap f (UnitT x) = UnitT $ f x; fmap f (BarrierT a c) = BarrierT a $ fmap f . c; return = UnitT; join (UnitT x) = x; join (BarrierT a c) = BarrierT a $ join . extract . extend c;
03:52:56 <zzo38> I have not checked if it correctly follows the monad laws, assuming w follows the comonad laws.
04:01:27 <zzo38> Other functions are: wliftT :: (w b -> t) -> a -> BarrierT a b w t; yieldT :: Comonad w => f -> BarrierT f t w t; collectT :: Comonad w => w (BarrierT f () w t) -> [f]; operateT :: (Monad m, Comonad w) => (w f -> m (w b)) -> w (BarrierT f b w t) -> m (w t);
04:02:25 <zzo38> (But I don't really like the name "wliftT" much and want to know if you can suggest a better name?)
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04:19:41 <quintopia> Madoka-Kaname: yes it was a sad day
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05:03:58 <Sgeo|web> elll...dammit
05:03:59 <lambdabot> Sgeo|web: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:04:49 <Sgeo|web> I'll read them after I watch EoA5. And no one's here
05:04:51 <Sgeo|web> Dammit
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05:52:30 <zzo38> I try to think of, how can I make something like the = in TNT, using the Haskell type system?
05:59:51 <zzo38> Is there a way?
06:14:37 <zzo38> Would some of the GHC extensions help?
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07:31:17 <Sgeo|web> @message elliott If you can find a download, EoA5 is up
07:31:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
07:31:25 <Sgeo|web> @tell elliott If you can find a download, EoA5 is up
07:31:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:31:34 <Sgeo|web> @tell Phantom_Hoover If you can find a download, EoA5 is up
07:31:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:31:41 <Sgeo|web> @tell CakeProphet If you can find a download, EoA5 is up
07:31:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:42:15 <zzo38> It seem to me, if the terms are types, then equality corresponds to isomorphism, but as far as I know there is no way to express that in the type system.
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08:45:24 <Sgeo|web> http://rincebrain.org/Cascade.torrent
08:45:32 <Sgeo|web> ^^ EoA5 torrent
08:45:42 <Sgeo|web> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CG0O78QW
08:45:47 <Ngevd> Already watched
08:45:51 <Sgeo|web> ^^ MegaUpload download
08:46:14 <Sgeo|web> This is for the other Homestucker's reference, I wasn't aware that you're a Homestuck person, sorry
08:46:25 <Ngevd> Nobody ever is...
08:46:31 <Ngevd> But I get my updates via RSS
08:47:35 <Sgeo|web> Well, you're lucky that you were able to watch it
08:47:39 <Sgeo|web> Newgrounds crashed
08:47:46 <Ngevd> I used the Megaupload
08:47:49 <Sgeo|web> Ah, ok
08:50:35 <zzo38> Now that I made classical logic in Haskell, I want to make number theory logic as well, but I cannot figure out how.
08:55:59 <Ngevd> I just got up to that chapter in Godel, Escher and Bach
08:57:34 <zzo38> One idea is to make a new kind of function type that can only hold bijective functions, allowing some reversible computing stuff done in Haskell.
09:02:50 <Sgeo|web> I don't think that you can verify that two functions reverse each other, but you could store a pair of (a -> b, b -> a)
09:02:57 <Sgeo|web> Then agian, why am I talking?
09:04:38 <zzo38> Sgeo|web: I did think of that, but that won't work because they are not necessarily inverses of each other
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09:09:36 <zzo38> Maybe Template Haskell could be used somehow?
09:16:42 <Ngevd> ais523, wiki spam
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09:24:29 <Sgeo|web> Also, yeah, new pages first
09:24:37 <Sgeo|web> Before [S] <EoA5]
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09:29:33 <CakeProphet> wow, so
09:29:33 <lambdabot> CakeProphet: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:29:38 <CakeProphet> .... o_o
09:29:49 <CakeProphet> so using single quotes in a single quoted string in bash
09:29:54 <CakeProphet> is perhaps the worst thing I've ever seen.
09:30:05 <CakeProphet> (and technically not possible; I'm referring to the workaround)
09:31:47 <CakeProphet> `run echo 'this is how you '\''embed'\'' single quotes in a single quoted string. Note the '\''elegance'\''.'
09:31:53 <HackEgo> this is how you 'embed' single quotes in a single quoted string. Note the 'elegance'.
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10:09:47 <Sgeo|web> Hi CakeProphet
10:17:34 <CakeProphet> regrg
10:23:41 <Sgeo|web> Did you watch it?
10:28:57 <zzo38> Is there a program to check that a Haskell program (or specified parts of it) have the properties: No loops. No nonexhaustive patterns. No undefined values. And possibly others that are user-specifiable.
10:30:51 <ais523> zzo38: do you mean no infinite loops? if so, that's impossible in general
10:30:54 <ais523> or no loops at all?
10:31:22 <ais523> nonexhaustive patterns can be quite easy to check (e.g. it's a standard warning in OCaml)
10:32:10 <zzo38> No loops at all.
10:32:15 -!- atehwa has set topic: EPL evening school assignments! http://tinyurl.com/5stnu5n | 12345678^&!* | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
10:32:41 <zzo38> I know that infinite loops are impossible to check in general.
10:32:44 <ais523> atehwa: ooh, an Underload reference
10:33:23 <ais523> in fact, Underload tutorial
10:33:23 <atehwa> ais523: verily :)
10:33:57 <atehwa> otherwise, there would be no hope the students could get into the assignments
10:34:09 <atehwa> I'm afraid the assignments are too hard as they are
10:34:21 <ais523> possibly
10:34:25 <ais523> the better students will enjoy doing them, though
10:34:34 <ais523> btw, my usual Underload pair representation is ((a)(b))
10:34:37 <atehwa> yeah
10:34:44 <atehwa> I'd go with that, too.
10:34:47 <ais523> using ^~! and ^! as first and second
10:35:00 <atehwa> yes, that was a quick answer for #3
10:35:02 <ais523> the usual Underload list representation uses pairs as cons cells
10:35:07 <atehwa> don't tell my students, though :)
10:35:10 <ais523> heh
10:35:29 <ais523> e.g. ((a)((b)((c)((d)()))))
10:35:34 <atehwa> but that's what I thought of first, too.
10:35:40 <ais523> although what you use to represent nil is an issue of its own
10:35:50 <atehwa> yes
10:35:59 <ais523> the typical Underlambda representation is rather simpler: ((a)(b)(c)(d))
10:36:07 <atehwa> Underlambda?
10:36:11 <ais523> and the language and standard library has support for that representation
10:36:22 <ais523> atehwa: it's my latest attempt to make a more serious Underload-based language
10:36:28 <atehwa> hum, ok
10:36:45 <ais523> unlike Underload, it uses functions rather than strings as the basic type
10:37:01 <atehwa> starts to sound like Lisp2k
10:37:24 <ais523> and it's designed to be very easy to implement a TC subset of it, easy to implement the whole language in that TC subject, and easy to implement other esolangs in the whole language
10:37:36 <ais523> so the idea's that eventually you'd get a whole load of esolang cross-compilers/cross-interpreters
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10:39:21 <atehwa> so the point is to get another bootstrapping environment :)
10:40:23 <zzo38> What is the list near the bottom with INTERCAL, Befunge, Brainfuck (Brainbool, Paintfuck, ...), FALSE, Malbolge, etc?
10:40:45 <ais523> a list of interesting esolangs
10:40:59 <CakeProphet> Sgeo|web: no, real life is exhausting, etc. I'm going to sleep now.
10:41:08 <atehwa> zzo38: it was the list of languages that I though would be worth mentioning in the evening school
10:41:10 <ais523> it's not a list of /all/ interesting esolangs, btw; otherwise you can take the first command from the first esolang, the second from the second, the third from the third, etc, then add 1 to all of them
10:41:15 <ais523> and you get a new interesting esolang
10:41:22 <ais523> diagonal principle…
10:41:27 <atehwa> ais523: whoa :D
10:42:05 <atehwa> but diagonalisation does not work with esolangs with finite definitions
10:42:08 <zzo38> atehwa: Do the multiple esolangs on the same line mean mentioned together?
10:42:30 <atehwa> zzo38: yes, they are "thematically bound"
10:42:42 <atehwa> thematically connected, more like
10:42:51 <zzo38> I can understand that.
10:43:57 <atehwa> I'd like to have something more workable than noit o'mnain worb for stochastic automata
10:45:23 <ais523> #esoteric needs to figure out how to write programs in noit o'mnain worb some time
10:46:28 <atehwa> I think it can't be done, really
10:46:59 <atehwa> rather, someone would have to design a language with the same computation principle, but with working machinery for building transistors.
10:47:12 <ais523> I'm not convinced that you can't build a transistor
10:47:13 <atehwa> and stable current, too
10:47:22 <ais523> the issue is, I'm also not convinced that you can build a transistor with hFE > 1
10:47:33 <atehwa> I'm not totally sure, either, I haven't seen it conclusively disproved
10:48:59 <atehwa> zzo38: as a more precise answer, the title "Historiallisesti tai aiheeltaan trkeit kieli" means "historically or thematically important languages"
10:49:25 <zzo38> atehwa: OK. And now you also explained why that is there; thanks for that too.
10:50:42 <Sgeo|web> @tell elliott There are non-[S] updates before the [S]
10:50:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:50:59 <Sgeo|web> @tell Phantom_Hoover There are non-[S] updates before the [S]
10:50:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:55:47 <CakeProphet> my programming languages are only good for moving people around the world and destroying ozone layers.
10:58:54 <zzo38> If there is a program to check some of the properties of a Haskell program, like I have described, then it could be like a proof checker if the Haskell program is seen as a proof according to Curry-Howard. Another possible use is it might allow certain optimizations to be performed on such a program.
11:03:14 <zzo38> I had the idea to represent equality of natural numbers as bijective function types. Haskell has no such type that is restricted to bijective functions; but if it did, it would be helpful that you can make reversible computing in Haskell!
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11:10:36 <zzo38> For example, (Maybe (Maybe Zero), Maybe (Maybe (Maybe Zero))) is isomorphic to (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe Zero)))))), I think
11:11:36 <zzo38> Did I do it correctly?
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11:14:13 * ais523 submits anagolf problem
11:14:49 <zzo38> OK
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11:15:13 <zzo38> Do you know what I am meaning by this stuff?
11:15:51 <ais523> yes, but I'm not sure of the answer
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11:23:37 <ais523> ^ul ()(~(*)*:S:(\n)S~:^):^
11:23:37 <fungot> *\n
11:23:45 <ais523> ^ul ()(~(*)*:S(\n)S~:^):^
11:23:45 <fungot> *\n**\n***\n****\n*****\n******\n*******\n********\n*********\n**********\n***********\n************\n*************\n**************\n***************\n****************\n*****************\n******************\n*******************\n********************\n*********************\n**********************\n***********************\n** ...too much output!
11:23:48 <ais523> there we go
11:23:58 <ais523> 'twas right second time
11:24:25 <ais523> and one possible answer to question 2, is that it does have two stacks: the data stack, and the program stack
11:24:49 <ais523> (another is that you store entire stacks in a stack element, and get more stacks that way)
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11:39:38 <ais523> hmm, I think I just noticed community self-parody on Slashdot
11:39:53 <ais523> where someone linked to the page where a future xkcd comic will eventually appear, in the hope that it would be at least loosely relevant
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12:45:17 <PH> What are the haps my friends?
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13:43:00 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Hello!
14:09:21 <zzo38> What is the fixity for -> and can I set fixity for type operators
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14:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It just occurred to me to check if lambdabot has any messages.;
14:44:48 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:45:04 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I guess that's a yes, then
14:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I miss the old days when elliott would read the Homestuck blogs on tumblr and then send me about ten messages bitching about them.\
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14:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I suppose it would be prudent to actually get some work done at some point.
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14:48:45 <PH_> Taneb|Hovercraft: wait what the hell were you doing online at half eight.
14:48:57 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I was online at half eight?
14:49:30 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Woah, I was
14:49:35 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Huh
14:49:43 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I'm a morning person?
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14:54:09 <PH_> Taneb|Hovercraft: don't... don't you have school.
14:54:18 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Half term
14:54:49 <Taneb|Hovercraft> England's a couple of weeks out of sync with Scotland, if memory serves
14:56:20 * PH_ eyes elliott's chair suspiciously.
14:56:42 <PH_> OK I'm going back to pretending I'm just about to do some work bye.
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15:47:37 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I've got a confession to make
15:47:43 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I'm not actually on a hovercraft
15:48:39 <quintopia> 9/me cries
15:48:48 <quintopia> without the 9 that works better
15:49:10 <quintopia> in any case, i am so brokenhearted at the lack of hovercraft
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16:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Computing while standing on one leg is surprisingly comfortable.
16:26:18 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Where's elliott when you need him
16:26:43 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I need a restaurant recommendation near Hexham
16:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Pick a random restaurant.
16:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, no, I have a better idea.
16:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Use http://random.irb.hr/ to select a restaurant, and rest assured that some parallel Taneb went to the right restaurant.
16:37:04 <Taneb|Hovercraft> But it's for my birthday meal!
16:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Quantum birthday!
16:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Best birthday.
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16:39:13 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I know someone who experienced a combination of a near death experience and quantum immortality
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16:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> EPL?
16:42:30 <Taneb|Hovercraft> He got hit by a car, went home, had pizza, and woke up in hospital three weeks later, having not actually had pizza
16:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Did he have his stomach pumped?
16:43:50 <Taneb|Hovercraft> No, he had imagined eating pizza
16:44:04 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Or ate pizza in a universe which had its waveform collapsed
16:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh FFS, Prequel had an [S] update as well?
16:46:24 <Taneb|Hovercraft> That's an FA, right?
16:46:30 <Phantom_Hoover> The best FA.
16:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god this is the best update
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17:44:24 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Comment on the EPL evening school assignments:
17:44:55 <Taneb|Hovercraft> The answer to weekly assignment two question two can be found within one link from that page
17:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> EPL?
17:45:27 <Taneb|Hovercraft> Look at the topic
17:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, that's what that was all about.
17:54:35 <Taneb|Hovercraft> ...How does one do line breaks in underload
17:54:36 <Taneb|Hovercraft> ?
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18:45:06 <Ngevd> @pl \x -> \y -> x && (not y)
18:45:06 <lambdabot> (. not) . (&&)
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19:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Aargh
19:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The left channel on these headphones is broken, and I can't work out how to force everything into mono so I can listen to stereo stuff.
19:31:57 <olsner> get working headphones
19:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> This is not a practical short-term solution.
19:32:39 <olsner> yes it is
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19:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Short-term as in right now.
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19:39:09 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> Now that I made classical logic in Haskell, I want to make number theory logic as well, but I cannot figure out how. <-- i think perhaps the problem is that your classical logic is purely propositional, but number theory requires quantifiers, so may essentially need dependent types which haskell doesn't have
19:39:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:40:30 <olsner> `quote
19:40:33 <HackEgo> 465) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho,
19:42:03 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 Although the type system (with UndecidableInstances) _is_ TC, so there should be _some_ way to encode it, but perhaps not in a way using the curry-howard isomorphism directly
19:42:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:53:30 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> it's not a list of /all/ interesting esolangs, btw; otherwise you can take the first command from the first esolang, the second from the second, the third from the third, etc, then add 1 to all of them <ais523> and you get a new interesting esolang <ais523> diagonal principle…
19:53:32 <HackEgo> 694) <ais523> it's not a list of /all/ interesting esolangs, btw; otherwise you can take the first command from the first esolang, the second from the second, the third from the third, etc, then add 1 to all of them <ais523> and you get a new interesting esolang <ais523> diagonal principle…
19:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> But must the result be interesting?
19:54:09 <oerjan> ...
19:54:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Most interesting esolangs wouldn't even be partitionable into commands that way.
19:54:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: does it feel drafty in here?
19:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's quite warm in fact.
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19:55:35 <oerjan> i guess the draft is _way_ above your head, then
19:56:14 <ais523> I think the resulting esolang would be interesting just based on the method of construction
19:56:23 <oerjan> good point
19:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, perhaps, but extending it infinitely would not necessarily result in an infinite series of interesting esolangs.
19:58:02 -!- tiffany has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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19:58:29 <oerjan> <ais523> the issue is, I'm also not convinced that you can build a transistor with hFE > 1 <-- does noit o'mnain worb have some analogy to the second law of thermodynamics, perhaps?
19:59:03 <ais523> oerjan: I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me
20:04:55 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> What is the fixity for -> and can I set fixity for type operators <-- infixr 0 and yes, says http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/data-type-extensions.html#infix-tycons
20:04:55 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:06:12 <oerjan> hm why isn't it `T` in the example, might be a typo
20:06:51 <oerjan> > let infixl 0 `t`; t = (+) in 2 `t` 3 * 5
20:06:52 <lambdabot> 17
20:07:01 <oerjan> > let infixl 0 t; t = (+) in 2 `t` 3 * 5
20:07:02 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `t'
20:07:51 -!- tiffany has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:07:56 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 I suspect there's a typo and the example should be infixl 7 `T`, :*:
20:07:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:09:21 -!- tiffany has joined.
20:12:01 <oerjan> <Taneb|Hovercraft> Or ate pizza in a universe which had its waveform collapsed
20:12:29 <oerjan> i wish my waveforms would collapse in a direction more consistent with my wishes
20:13:18 <oerjan> <Taneb|Hovercraft> ...How does one do line breaks in underload
20:13:32 <oerjan> Ngevd: just put them in the program. doesn't work on irc, of course.
20:13:59 <Ngevd> Ooh, sneaky
20:14:15 <oerjan> also, (...)! is a comment, which you can put line breaks in (i've used that for several of the programs on the wiki)
20:16:05 <oerjan> they need to be put inside strings, not as executed commands (which will usually error out)
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20:30:54 <Sgeo|web> elliott: it's up
20:31:05 <elliott> It's watched.
20:31:06 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:32:00 -!- tiffany has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:34:42 <elliott> Sgeo|web: Wait, it /crashed Newgrounds/?
20:34:48 <elliott> This has to be some kind of record.
20:35:01 -!- tiffany has joined.
20:35:56 <Ngevd> Also, elliott, recommend a restaurant, dammit!
20:36:06 <elliott> #esoteric
20:36:58 <Sgeo|web> elliott: in a manner of minutes, iirc
20:37:18 * oerjan is going to believe elliott never goes to restaurants
20:37:36 <elliott> oerjan believes many a thing
20:37:55 <Sgeo|web> <insert snarky reference to oerjan's past beliefs here>
20:38:08 * oerjan swats Sgeo|web -----###
20:38:29 <elliott> Which past beliefs
20:40:41 <Sgeo|web> Astrology
20:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Sgeo|web: Wait, it /crashed Newgrounds/?
20:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> In about two minutes, at that.
20:42:29 <Sgeo|web> I saw someone on Twitter joke that Hussie posted it on the CIA website, and crashed the government
20:42:31 <elliott> Sgeo|web: I think you're confusing past and current beliefs
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20:59:33 <elliott> Sgeo|web: Looks like it just slowed down Newgrounds, not crashed it, and then Hussie took it off
20:59:40 <elliott> Since it wasn't working
21:00:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Newgrounds was showing maintenance pages for at least some time.
21:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (Citation: hearsay from the SA thread.)
21:01:19 <elliott> Oh, that thing will be back now.
21:01:22 <elliott> How many pages is it already?
21:01:32 <Phantom_Hoover> They started a new thread.
21:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's on ~10, IIRC.
21:02:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Twenty-two;
21:02:12 <elliott> s/;/./
21:04:24 -!- copumpki_ has joined.
21:06:00 <ais523> <Monomelodies> If this had been some esoteric language where && had meant "subtract by three, but only if it's a full moon and Elvis is playing on the radio" I'd have agreed the OP should have explained it.
21:06:04 <ais523> anyone want to implement that?
21:07:07 <elliott> bf derivative except that
21:07:09 -!- copumpki_ has changed nick to copumpkin_.
21:07:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:07:11 <elliott> someone else implement it
21:07:12 -!- copumpkin_ has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:07:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
21:07:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:08:05 <ais523> hmm, "bf derivative except that" should be listed somewhere as a method of easily creating vast numbers of stupid esolangs
21:08:14 <elliott> heh
21:15:59 -!- Jafet has joined.
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21:36:36 <oerjan> ais523: wiki spam
21:38:10 <ais523> deleted
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21:38:25 <oerjan> there's been a lot lately
21:38:26 <elliott> So my MacBook Air broke.
21:38:45 <oerjan> ran out of air, presumably
21:38:55 <elliott> I was just about to watch the EOA Homestuck Flash today -- literally just about to -- and it just turned itself off and won't go back on again.
21:38:57 <elliott> It KNOWS.
21:40:06 <pikhq> Map +-.,><[] to 足引出入右左初終 BAM ESOLANG
21:40:07 <pikhq> :P
21:40:30 <elliott> It's just a good thing I have 5 computers to hand at all times like a sane person.
21:40:37 <pikhq> elliott: :)
21:41:03 <elliott> Or was it s/sane/reasonable/ I am Bad at References.
21:41:10 <elliott> This one has shitty speakers though.
21:42:48 <Madoka-Kaname> pikhq, is that Chinese or Japanese?
21:42:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ cat /etc/debian_version
21:42:56 <elliott> squeeze/sid
21:42:59 <elliott> Oh no, why am I on sid.
21:43:12 <elliott> No wait.
21:43:15 <elliott> I'm on squeeze.
21:43:17 <elliott> This thing lies.
21:43:47 <pikhq> Madoka-Kaname: Based on Japanese words, but I'd *imagine* it works just fine for Chinese as well.
21:44:13 <pikhq> Well. 足し算・引き算 might not carry over that well to Chinese?
21:44:43 <oerjan> "Left foot leads into the right beginning of the end"
21:44:58 <oerjan> very poignant
21:45:06 <pikhq> oerjan: It's just "add subtract out in right left begin end".
21:45:36 <oerjan> "And from right to left end of the first leg pull" when done from japanese
21:45:48 -!- copumpki_ has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:45:53 <pikhq> Well, yes, it's not even vaguely valid Japanese. :P
21:45:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
21:45:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:46:06 <oerjan> also poignant
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22:04:12 <Patashu> [s] cascade completely surpassed my expectations
22:04:28 <elliott> yeah
22:05:10 <Patashu> I didn't catch how dave and rose got god tier though
22:05:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Dude shut up.
22:05:20 <Patashu> spoilers or whatever
22:05:29 <Patashu> my bad
22:06:13 <Ngevd> Goodnight, all
22:06:20 <elliott> Bye.
22:06:21 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:12:36 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:24:41 <elliott> Patashu: See /msg.
22:28:18 <oklopol> is it just me or is "left foot leads into the right beginning of the end" the smartest thing anyone has ever said ever
22:28:37 <elliott> Yes.
22:28:42 <oklopol> which one
22:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Both.
22:30:05 <elliott> Yes.
22:30:12 <oklopol> :o
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22:32:37 <oklopol> i have to talk about noetherian modules on thursday and i just realized i'm too stupid to understand these theorems
22:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't Noether all, like, stuff
22:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Which doesn't change.
22:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Pretty simple, really.
22:33:39 <oklopol> it means the module has the ascending chain condition, that is, an ascending chain is finite
22:33:55 <oklopol> (a chain of submodules ordered by inclusion)
22:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you sure it's the same Noether?
22:34:38 <oklopol> you can use that as a kind of zorn's lemma to find finite chains with funny properties, since if you just take a maximal chain, it's finite
22:34:56 <oklopol> i have no idea who noether is, i just know what a noetherian module is
22:37:08 <oklopol> it's just that when you have a ring and then you take the ring of polynomials and then that operates on a module and then you take the dual of that module and then you have an operation on the module and get a dual operation on the dual of the module and then write a whole number of sentences starting with "obviously,", i get a bit frustrated
22:37:18 <oklopol> *polynomials over it
22:38:40 <oklopol> well put like that it sounds pretty simple but keeping track of indexing and types gets a bit complicated when you have multiple levels
22:38:47 <oklopol> and paper is for pussies afaik
22:41:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes it's the same noether, the physics stuff was a little different from what she worked the most on, i think
22:41:45 <oklopol> she?
22:41:48 <oklopol> wow
22:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, it was a joke.
22:42:20 <oerjan> yes, emmy noether is probably the most famous female mathematician in history
22:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean oerjan.
22:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also she was basically a physicist, and we all know what they say about physicists.
22:42:52 <oklopol> i should probably try to keep that in mind
22:42:52 <elliott> Is it worse than what they say about fisheries research biologists?
22:43:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to Testing.
22:43:08 <oerjan> still joking i see
22:43:22 <oklopol> what do they say about physicists
22:43:23 -!- Testing has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
22:43:38 <oklopol> they are retards?
22:43:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, obviously.
22:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, oh god, I don't know, I was just pretending so that I could be in the in crowd aaaaaaaaaaaa
22:44:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well right, it'd hard to get worse than that.
22:45:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the thought scares me.
22:45:19 <elliott> s/hard/be hard/
22:45:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'd like to take this opportunity to laugh at fisheries research biologists: hahahahahaha.
22:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd *laugh* at that?
22:47:11 <elliott> At what.
22:47:29 <oerjan> hey i'll have you know fisheries research biologists are a respected profession in norway
22:47:58 <oklopol> i did applied fisheries research when i was little
22:48:05 <elliott> xD
22:48:27 <oklopol> got some results too but i ate them before i could publish them
22:48:56 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> i did applied fisheries research when i was little <oklopol> got some results too but i ate them before i could publish them
22:48:59 <HackEgo> 695) <oklopol> i did applied fisheries research when i was little <oklopol> got some results too but i ate them before i could publish them
22:49:52 <ais523> almost certainly lying, but still hilarious
22:50:11 <oklopol> i would never lie about my research
22:50:27 <oerjan> ais523: i am pretty sure he is entirely truthful
22:50:44 <ais523> oerjan: but if it /isn't/ your research, that doesn't matter
22:50:57 <ais523> if you claim that you researched tractor tyres but didn't, that's not lying about your research
22:51:04 <elliott> ais523: Anything happened in BlogNomic yet?
22:51:10 <ais523> elliott: sixth meta started
22:51:18 <ais523> people are currently fighting over the theme
22:51:20 <elliott> I was busy repeatedly watching a thirteen minute Flash.
22:51:24 <elliott> I guess I'll get on IRC.
22:52:21 <quintopia> ais523: ##electronics is full of knowledgeable unhelpful people. where can i get both?
22:52:44 <oklopol> in ##electronics, apparently
22:52:46 <elliott> #esoteric is full of unknowledgable unhelpful people
22:52:49 <oklopol> lucky you
22:52:51 <elliott> so you're in the right place
22:52:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: ragepart).
22:53:02 <elliott> that's not a ragepart
22:53:05 <oerjan> wat
22:53:05 <elliott> you're terrible at this, ais
22:53:18 <oerjan> ais are usually terrible at rageparts
22:53:26 <quintopia> lol
22:53:28 <oerjan> until they invent death rays, anyhow
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22:54:56 <oklopol> oerjan: are you an expert on noetherian modules
22:55:10 <oerjan> no.
22:55:37 * tswett decides to begin writing Jath. Again.
22:55:37 <oklopol> my question is on notation so you're probably pretty useless then
22:55:52 <tswett> I think for now, it's simply going to be a loose collection of features.
22:56:48 <elliott> whats jath
22:57:03 <tswett> A parser. LLVM. A B+-tree. That's going to be it for now.
22:57:17 <elliott> ok
22:58:17 <oerjan> i never took the proper ring theory course, although i do think something noetherian was mentioned in the homological algebra one
23:00:40 <oklopol> i'm slowly starting to realize (once again) that i don't actually know any math
23:00:46 <oklopol> nothing at all
23:01:03 <oklopol> i should just become a gardener or a truck
23:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Garden on a truck.
23:01:54 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
23:01:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:02:00 <oerjan> i think you mean trucker, unless you're in for some major body modifications
23:04:14 <quintopia> you know enough to be a math tutor
23:04:24 <quintopia> and then be a gardener on the side
23:04:33 <quintopia> and a fisheries researcher
23:04:36 <oklopol> i'm sure they are smaller modifications than the ones i'd need to do math
23:05:08 <elliott> "Yeah, nothing seemed to descend into chaos and cannibalism" -- oh, phew.
23:05:40 <oklopol> also i'm getting closer to proving sofic shifts are simplicial complexes and all simplicial complexes can be embedded in any nontrivial mixing sofic shift as a sofic subshift, up to homotopy equivalence, in the besicovitch topology
23:06:10 <oerjan> elliott: how boring
23:07:41 <oklopol> no one does algebraic topology here, so i have no idea if i'm proving something well-known
23:07:57 <oklopol> here as in in turku
23:09:01 <oklopol> besicovitch topology is when you take the limsup of difference densities of n-blocks around the origin as n goes to infinity as the distance
23:12:10 <oklopol> homotopy equivalence is really annoying to show, you first have to find two continuous functions equating them, then prove both the compositions homotopy equivalent to id, so it's four times the work of proving something with just one step like 1 + 1 = 2
23:12:56 <quintopia> why two different ones?
23:13:00 <quintopia> two directions?
23:13:05 <oklopol> well back and forth
23:13:14 <quintopia> yer
23:14:11 <oklopol> if those are just inverses, you have a homeomorphism, and those spaces are so far from homeomorphic that i can't even find a simile
23:14:32 <oklopol> wait
23:14:38 <oklopol> yeah
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23:16:17 <oklopol> a besicovitch space is not locally very R^n-like, since it's infinitedimensional
23:16:22 <oklopol> *infinite dimensional
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23:17:28 <elliott> play four in a row on it
23:18:50 <oklopol> i'm actually playing continuous path on it all day long, which is uncountably infinite times cooler.
23:19:07 <elliott> is that where you have to make a straight path of arbitrary length to win
23:20:36 <oklopol> it's a solitaire. you find paths and then you show they are actually homotopic to other paths and be really happy for some reason.
23:21:45 <oerjan> quintopia: for example, [0,1] and a single point are homotopy equivalent
23:22:03 <oklopol> for instance a mixing sofic shift is contractible, that is, homotopy equivalent to a single point, so all paths are homotopic
23:22:13 <oklopol> synchronicity
23:22:44 <oerjan> contractible spaces _are_ the simplest ones to think of
23:23:10 <oklopol> an empty space is way simpler
23:23:15 <oklopol> amirite
23:23:23 <oerjan> er.
23:23:31 <oerjan> possibly
23:23:38 <oklopol> i didn't say that because contractible spaces are simple, but because i like listing my results
23:24:00 <oklopol> i suppose i proved that because they are simple though
23:24:07 <oerjan> i think you will be hard pressed to find a different non-homeomorphic space it's homotopy equivalent with, though
23:24:19 <oklopol> ?
23:24:28 <oerjan> ...the empty space
23:24:30 <oklopol> oh
23:24:34 <oklopol> right
23:25:09 <oklopol> i have an idea for one, but i'm having a hard time choosing the function to the empty space
23:25:41 <oerjan> you don't say
23:25:42 <oklopol> i came up with the other function in like a second though so i'm sure i'm on the right track
23:25:59 <oerjan> a track paved with good intensions, i'm sure
23:26:54 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intension i'm trying to find out if that was a pun but i don't get any of this
23:27:04 <oklopol> maybe i'm just too stupid to do anything right now
23:27:15 <oklopol> did i mention all sofic shifts are closed but not all shift spaces are
23:28:12 <oklopol> and also that toeplitz sequences are dense while no countable set can be
23:28:27 <oklopol> (maybe infinite-dimensionality implies the latter?)
23:28:39 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions
23:28:42 <oklopol> hmm no i don't think so
23:28:58 <oklopol> yes i was wondering about the typo
23:29:16 <oerjan> there was a typo? hm.
23:30:07 <oklopol> it's a bit subtle
23:31:01 <oerjan> wow i never knew those were different words
23:32:53 <oklopol> kind of like the result that a noetherian module has a unique finite characteristic set of prime ideals such that there exists a set of submodules, one for each of those ideals, such that the intersection of them is empty but no intersection not containing all of those is, such that the annihilator of each of those submodules is the associated prime ideal and also all those submodules are primary
23:33:01 <oerjan> they're both spelled intensjon in norwegian
23:34:42 <oerjan> oklopol: no, infinite-dimensional spaces can have countable dense subsets
23:34:55 <oerjan> separable hilbert space, for example
23:34:58 <oklopol> yeah i realized
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23:38:49 <oklopol> i want to be sleepy :(
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23:48:58 <evincar> In Haskell, is there a more general way to compose functions than (.)?
23:49:21 <elliott> see Control.Category I guses
23:49:22 <elliott> guess
23:49:23 <evincar> Like (a->b->c)->(d->a)->(e->a)->(d->e->c) for replacing two arguments with two functions.
23:49:36 <evincar> Er, e->b.
23:50:05 <evincar> For the third argument.
23:50:15 <evincar> (a->b->c)->(d->a)->(e->b)->(d->e->c)
23:50:56 <monqy> make yourself a mess of compositions
23:51:19 <monqy> what name would you give that one?
23:51:40 <oerjan> evincar: http://conal.net/blog/posts/semantic-editor-combinators
23:53:42 <evincar> monqy: It could be the type resulting from a more general scheme, so I dunno.
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23:54:48 <oerjan> @pl \f g h x y -> f (g x) (h y)
23:54:49 <lambdabot> ((flip . ((.) .)) .) . (.)
23:55:13 <evincar> It takes a binary function and composes two unary functions in place of its arguments, so compose2nd (compose1st b u1) u2 ? Or something?
23:55:46 <oklopol> i think ((flip . ((.) .)) .) . (.) is as clear as it gets
23:55:48 <oerjan> @pl \f g h -> curry (uncurry f . (g *** h))
23:55:49 <lambdabot> ((curry .) .) . (. (***)) . (.) . (.) . uncurry
23:55:51 <evincar> Hrm.
23:55:54 <oerjan> eek
23:55:58 <oklopol> i admit, the "flip" makes it a bit hard to read
23:56:05 <evincar> I'm trying to implement something like the function composition/application setup I had in Even.
23:56:12 <evincar> Because I still think that's a good idea.
23:56:17 <oklopol> who is even
23:56:18 <monqy> whats even
23:56:20 <oklopol> is she hot
23:56:26 <evincar> Oh, I never mentioned that name here.
23:56:40 <evincar> It was the message-passing language we had an argument about composition versus application about.
23:56:47 <monqy> argument?
23:56:54 <evincar> Everyone was telling me I was wrong.
23:56:58 <monqy> you were
23:56:59 <oklopol> yeah "argument"
23:57:07 <evincar> So that kind of argument.
23:57:17 <evincar> The kind where I say something false and people object.
23:57:24 <oklopol> the best kind
23:57:27 <oklopol> when the i is not me
23:57:28 <evincar> Indeed.
23:57:30 <monqy> I typically consider that distinct from proper arguments
23:57:36 <monqy> but whatever
23:57:45 <monqy> so how did composition work there?
23:57:57 <monqy> semantically, I mean
23:58:20 <oklopol> even is such an odd language.
23:58:33 <evincar> Well, for binary f and unary g and h, [[f [g ?] [h ?]] x y] would yield [f [g x] [h y]]
23:59:09 <evincar> Where [] groups application and ? is a sort of placeholder.
23:59:33 <monqy> oh I remember that. you were wrong about it too weren't you
23:59:45 <evincar> That is, [g ?] x and [g x] are the same, but [h [g ?]] x is [h [g x]].
23:59:55 <monqy> ah so you resolved that
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