←2011-11-25 2011-11-26 2011-11-27→ ↑2011 ↑all
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00:05:55 <oerjan> <elliott> I guess oerjan was rather timely then. <-- namedropping us is bad now? >:P
00:05:55 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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00:18:16 <oerjan> <Ngevd> I say sentences of that format a lot <-- maybe you could define an alias.
00:18:56 <oerjan> oops, he just left.
00:24:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> Ended lamely <-- that Capital city article seems to show up often.
00:28:24 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Help I wrote two Perl programs and didn't feel disgusted with myself what does this mean? <-- i don't understand the question >:)
00:28:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:33:01 <kallisti> @tell elliott it means you should embark on a long soul-searching quest to discover who you really are.
00:33:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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01:47:41 <oerjan> hm retrying United States with elliott's section rule changes the path after Syphilis#Tertiary
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01:49:27 <oerjan> Syphilis#Tertiary -> Aortic aneurysm -> Bleeding -> Blood donation -> Shelf life -> Eating -> Activities of daily living
01:53:26 <oerjan> -> Old age -> Geriatrics -> Greek language -> English language -> Slang -> Euphemism -> Friendly fire -> Fratricide -> Siblicide -> Human
01:56:24 <oerjan> -> Anthropology -> Positivism -> Auguste Comte -> Altruism -> Ethical egoism -> Individualist anarchism -> Benjamin Tucker -> Liberty (1881–1908) -> Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
01:58:07 <oerjan> -> Loan -> Bond (finance) -> Perpetuity -> Valuation (finance) -> Lawsuit
01:58:40 <itidus21> fart -> punk rock -> the offspring -> alternative songs -> coldplay -> teenage cancer trust -> wirral -> Wirral Metropolitan College -> Wirral Peninsula -> Hundred (county subdivision)
02:00:14 <oerjan> -> Civil law (common law) -> Equity (law) -> Common law -> Australia, which i'm sure i saw earlier today and i think it ended up eventually in the Petronas Towers loop
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02:02:49 <itidus21> -> japan -> infant mortality -> child mortality -> Millennium Development Goals -> AIDS -> Needle-exchange programme -> HIV -> Cancer -> List of causes of death by rate -> World Health Organization -> United Nations Development Group -> United Nations Development Programme -> Human Development Report -> (loops back to United Nations Development Programme)
02:03:54 <oerjan> itidus21: sounds like the end there might be another common one
02:04:07 <itidus21> curiously DMM also enters the japan set
02:04:18 <oerjan> david morgan-mar?
02:05:30 <itidus21> David Morgan-Mar -> Canon (company) -> Ōta, Tokyo -> Kamata Station (Tokyo) -> Japan ->
02:06:50 <oerjan> yeah he works at Canon, so it's not that strange
02:08:43 <oerjan> Norway -> Human Development Index -> Human development (humanity) -> Capability approach, this looks familiar.
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02:12:09 <oerjan> ah, that one ended in the Tests of general/special relativity loop
02:23:47 <zzo38> Which house systems is it possible to make a sundial to project?
02:24:09 <oerjan> heh
02:24:32 <oerjan> that reminds me of the digital sundial (a mathematical construction which iirc requires the axiom of choice)
02:25:25 <zzo38> I have read about digital sundials in Wikipedia that uses optical fiber to cause the light to make up digits
02:26:25 <zzo38> The mathematics for fractal digital sundial is described but I do not see a mention of the axiom of choice
02:26:53 <oerjan> oh it doesn't require it, it seems, and is actually practical?
02:28:06 <itidus21> digital sundial eh? so the idea is a sophisticated mapping of sun direction to light up a display of arabic numerals?
02:28:09 <itidus21> cool idea
02:28:59 <oerjan> yeah
02:42:04 <oerjan> zzo38: you'd want a house system which can be determined from the precise position of the sun in the sky, presumably. and i think there will be at least some positions that happen twice in a year as the sun wanders between the tropics in both directions
02:43:01 <oerjan> but perhaps those two days will also have matching houses
02:43:23 <oerjan> (that is, each day in spring will have a matching day in autumn)
02:44:40 <oerjan> or very close to matching
02:46:15 <zzo38> Does it have anything to do with analemma or Sun declination (in equatorial coordinates)?
02:46:28 <oerjan> i don't know what those are
02:46:58 <itidus21> "In the final issue of Batman R.I.P., the Joker explains to an organization trying to destroy Batman that there is no use trying because Batman is always so far ahead in figuring out every scheme against him. Joker attributes this to _apophenia_, saying that he has literally been driven insane by this alone."
02:47:36 <zzo38> Equatorial coordinates means measure position of planets and sun and so on on the equatorial plane. The other way is to use the ecliptic.
02:48:54 <oerjan> zzo38: well the tropics are the largest magnitude latitudes of the sun in that system, i assume
02:49:23 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct.
02:51:47 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia: "Since the Earth's mean solar day is almost exactly 24 hours, an analemma can be traced by plotting the position of the Sun as viewed from a fixed position on Earth at the same clock time every day for an entire year." Using the horizon view and timed exposure modes in Astrolog, you can plot the analemma on the computer.
02:54:08 <zzo38> (The analemma is plotted using azimuth/altitude coordinates)
02:54:40 <oerjan> so yes, the analemma would be relevant. although you'd really want an analemma based on when you're in the same _house_ position each day
02:54:55 <oerjan> and if those don't intersect, you can make a sundial.
03:00:17 <oerjan> hm...
03:00:36 <oerjan> *when the sun is in the same house position
03:04:04 <oerjan> "If space in the heavens is the basis for house division, the sky is divided into equal arcs of 30° each. Here, too, a difference will be made as to whether these divisions are made based on the ecliptic, or on the celestial equator."
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03:04:41 <oerjan> i'd _guess_ that if you use the celestial equator, a house will be a fixed part of the sky, so should work with a sundial.
03:04:50 <oerjan> and easily.
03:11:23 <zzo38> As far as I know house systems always place the cusps on the ecliptic (although the different systems might project the equator or prime vertical or whatever). Regiomontanus houses: "The celestial equator is divided into twelve, and these divisions are projected on to the ecliptic along great circles that take in the north and south points on the horizon."
03:11:35 <zzo38> Campanus houses: "The prime vertical (the great circle taking in the zenith and east point on the horizon) is divided into twelve, and these divisions are projected on to the ecliptic along great circles that take in the north and south points on the horizon."
03:13:26 <oerjan> mhm
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03:57:47 <madbrain> hey
03:57:53 <oerjan> ho
03:57:55 -!- madbrain has changed nick to madbrrr.
03:58:04 <oerjan> cold, is it?
03:58:17 <madbrrr> in montreal, yeah :D
03:58:35 <madbrrr> trying to figure out if chess is turing complete
03:58:49 <quintopia> sounds good
03:59:00 <madbrrr> if you allow walls and an infinite board and an infinitely repeating pattern for the infinite tape
03:59:10 <quintopia> infinite chessboard, same distribution of pieces?
03:59:27 <madbrrr> no basically your program is the initial setup :D
03:59:35 <quintopia> oh
03:59:45 <quintopia> and the output is?
03:59:49 <itidus21> madbrrr: well then the question is what is a wall...
03:59:50 <quintopia> shortest checkmate?
04:00:06 <itidus21> like a part of the board?
04:00:07 <madbrrr> itidus: space that pieces can't go through
04:00:33 <madbrrr> exept that horses can still jump over it
04:01:13 <madbrrr> quintopia: whether it's the white or the black player that can win 100% of the time perhaps?
04:01:40 <madbrrr> Essentially you take one small walled corner somewhere
04:01:46 <madbrrr> and setup the white king
04:01:54 <madbrrr> 1 move away from being checkmated :D
04:02:03 <quintopia> i'm confused
04:02:03 <itidus21> i dont know enough about turing machines to actually add to this
04:02:09 <hagb4rd> lol
04:02:12 <madbrrr> so to stay alive he has to keep the black king in check
04:02:17 <quintopia> oh right
04:02:24 <quintopia> you only need one bit of output
04:02:26 <quintopia> duh
04:02:49 <madbrrr> so basically each move, the white player must do one move to keep the black king in check
04:03:05 <madbrrr> and then the black king has to move out of check
04:06:04 <madbrrr> obviously with setups of rooks you can move the king around
04:06:19 <madbrrr> but can you, say, store a bit?
04:06:59 <oerjan> madbrrr: er, you're not referring to castling, because the king can only do that on its first move
04:07:28 <oerjan> and not while in check, iirc
04:07:56 <madbrrr> nah I don't think castling could be used to perform computation
04:09:00 <oerjan> indeed
04:09:32 <itidus21> if brainfuck can do computation then chess can
04:10:06 <oerjan> "Some other generalized games, such as chess, checkers (draughts), and Go are EXPTIME-complete because a game between two perfect players can be very long, so they are unlikely to be in PSPACE. But they will become PSPACE-complete if a polynomial bound on the number of moves is enforced.
04:10:12 <oerjan> "
04:10:35 <oerjan> may be relevant
04:10:52 <madbrrr> say you have this setup
04:10:52 <madbrrr> ###############
04:10:53 <madbrrr> #R R #r####
04:10:53 <madbrrr> #RR # K#
04:10:53 <madbrrr> ## k ######
04:10:53 <madbrrr> ############
04:11:00 <oerjan> that's for arbitrary large, but finite board, of course
04:11:02 <madbrrr> white to play
04:11:21 <madbrrr> if white does anything other than check the black king, he's dead
04:11:41 <oerjan> a wall is essentially a hole in the board, isn't it.
04:11:45 <madbrrr> yeah
04:11:48 <oerjan> so part of the board shape
04:12:15 <madbrrr> might be possible to do computation without walls but I'm starting with the simpler case
04:12:44 <madbrrr> now, to check the black king, white has to move one of his rooks
04:12:45 <madbrrr> hmm
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04:14:18 <zzo38> There are four ways for the uppercase player to put the lowercase player in check as far as I can see.
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04:14:52 <madbrrr> zzo: except the black king can escape from the small diagonal hole :D
04:15:21 <zzo38> In tsume shogi, too, you are required to put opponent in check on every turn
04:15:53 <zzo38> madbrrr: Yes, I can see that; eventually black will win. However white can still put black in check
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04:16:54 <madbrrr> the idea is to come up with a setup where you force the king through a set of corridors
04:17:21 <madbrrr> which moves the white's pieces around
04:17:42 <madbrrr> and have computation using those pieces' position
04:19:43 <oerjan> it looks to me like that setup is a checkmate by moving an R down...
04:20:07 <madbrrr> no see once you get to this:
04:20:19 <oerjan> i mean the one you pasted
04:20:56 <madbrrr> ###############
04:20:56 <madbrrr> #R R #r####
04:20:57 <madbrrr> #R R # K#
04:20:57 <madbrrr> ## k######
04:20:57 <madbrrr> ############
04:21:04 <madbrrr> white to play
04:21:12 <madbrrr> next move is obviously
04:21:25 <madbrrr> ###############
04:21:25 <madbrrr> #R R#r####
04:21:25 <madbrrr> #R R # K#
04:21:25 <madbrrr> ## k######
04:21:25 <madbrrr> ############
04:21:31 <oerjan> madbrrr: er i'm saying that the first one you pasted will never get to that point because it's a one-move checkmate
04:21:44 <madbrrr> oh
04:21:51 <madbrrr> heh right
04:22:14 <madbrrr> so many Rs that he can just block all 3 rows, right
04:22:41 <zzo38> Yes it is a one move checkmate
04:22:54 <madbrrr> hmm
04:23:16 <zzo38> It is possible to change it, I suppose? Would it help to add new kind of pieces such as the Chinese cannons?
04:23:32 <madbrrr> well
04:23:51 <madbrrr> I'm trying to find something where you don't have to forbit perpetual check
04:23:56 <madbrrr> *forbid
04:24:31 <oerjan> oh i'm guessing that's not necessary. i mean the EXPTIME thing i pasted must essentially imply that it's possible to do arbitrary _finite_ computation, so it would be strange if an infinite board wasn't TC
04:24:39 <madbrrr> like this
04:24:40 <madbrrr> ###############
04:24:40 <madbrrr> #RR #r####
04:24:40 <madbrrr> ## # K#
04:24:40 <madbrrr> ## k ######
04:24:40 <madbrrr> ############
04:25:03 <madbrrr> black king can just force a draw by going back and forth
04:25:03 <zzo38> Chinese cannon = When not capturing, moves the same as a rook, but when it is capturing, there must be exactly one piece (of any color and type) in between the from square and the target (this piece in between is called a "screen" and is unaffected by this move)
04:25:25 <madbrrr> zzo: hm
04:26:15 <madbrrr> I'm trying to do it with FIDE pieces only :D
04:26:32 <madbrrr> but if there's no good way it might require some extra pieces yeah
04:27:20 <itidus21> an idea just occured to me
04:27:21 <oerjan> "That is why all the games were modified by playing them on an n × n board instead; in some cases, such as for Chess, these extensions are somewhat artificial and subjective."
04:28:01 <oerjan> so it is possible that it requires something else. but the walls seem to me like such a thing already.
04:28:07 <zzo38> And then, what are rules for pawns going to be? I suppose it can be based on the relative positions of pawns to walls
04:28:08 <itidus21> a lot of the time these games are about static pieces.. but game of life is a game about dynamic objects on a board
04:28:48 <madbrrr> zzo: I was thinking white pawns go up, black pawns go down :o
04:29:04 <oerjan> itidus21: well it's unusual in that you change a lot of cells simultaneously
04:29:25 <zzo38> madbrrr: Yes, but I mean for double step and promotion
04:29:36 <itidus21> oerjan: but suppose that a game like chess had pieces which had rules which didn't allow them to sit still unless they were stuck
04:30:05 <madbrrr> zzo: dunno, was thinking of presuming that the game was ongoing so no double step
04:30:19 <itidus21> im going off on a tangent though... big tangent
04:30:21 <madbrrr> and promotion, well, they'd have to reach the top of the program for that no? :D
04:30:38 <oerjan> itidus21: mind you there are other kinds of games where one player makes a lot of moves in their turn, like RISK
04:31:21 <oerjan> a lot of strategic conquest games, in fact
04:31:25 <zzo38> itidus21: You could have the game, each piece has to move exactly once on your turn; if they are stuck, they don't move, and if all your pieces are stuck you are stalemated.
04:32:02 <oerjan> Vinci is another that comes to mind
04:32:14 <itidus21> *catches my breath trying not to derail the other topic too far* like a set of rules for each piece which it has to follow..
04:32:50 <itidus21> that you don't tell a piece where to move each turn, it does it on its own.. and you just have some limited control .. like maybe allowed to specify movements of n pieces per turn
04:33:24 <itidus21> then you might for instance have pieces which explore the edges of a room
04:33:32 <itidus21> uh room? i mean an enclosed space
04:33:53 <itidus21> or pieces which move across a space back and forth
04:34:02 <oerjan> sounds like something that must already have been made.
04:34:14 <itidus21> everything has already been made(tm)
04:34:48 <madbrrr> hmm
04:34:51 <itidus21> its probably just not very easy to do on a board
04:34:59 <itidus21> more of a computer-powered task
04:34:59 <oerjan> well, everything that doesn't require a new invention to work
04:35:11 <oerjan> that's sort of tautological
04:35:36 <itidus21> uhm
04:35:53 <itidus21> so in my minds eye i see like a 16bit role playing game village
04:36:07 <itidus21> where each townsfolk is performing some patterned walking
04:37:26 <oerjan> i'd be surprised if there wasn't someone here who had played such a game. but i don't play that kind of games much, and i don't ... oh wait, lemmings is a bit like that
04:37:52 <madbrrr> damn it
04:38:04 <madbrrr> it's hard to find a good contraption using chess pieces
04:38:36 <oerjan> madbrrr: you want it to be deterministic, too, to encode a TM
04:39:23 <madbrrr> oerjan: that means you need a setup where there is only one possible check on each move
04:39:32 <madbrrr> and one possible king move in response
04:39:50 <oerjan> madbrrr: well or only one possible which doesn't allow the king to escape
04:39:58 <oerjan> in an unwanted direction
04:40:12 <madbrrr> sounds hard to evaluate
04:40:45 <oerjan> well but it's the kind of evaluation you need for solving chess problems, anyway...
04:40:52 <zzo38> You could have game involving the board changing. One possibility is the board changes size after every few turns, or they have night time and day time, another idea I had is a game that adds a dimension every few turns. Or have cards that adjust the rules for the board.
04:41:21 <oerjan> and it might not have to take _long_ to escape. just in case you need a little extra flexibility beyond a single immediate possibility
04:41:59 <madbrrr> ##
04:41:59 <madbrrr> ## #
04:41:59 <madbrrr> ## # P
04:41:59 <madbrrr> ## # P
04:41:59 <madbrrr> ## # P
04:42:00 <madbrrr> #k# P
04:42:00 <madbrrr> ## P
04:42:01 <madbrrr> ##PP
04:42:12 <madbrrr> this one is fairly deterministic
04:42:37 <oerjan> P is for pawn?
04:42:41 <madbrrr> but non resettable :(
04:42:42 <madbrrr> yeah
04:43:04 <oerjan> yes the resetting might be tricky. in fact you can just about ignore pawns for this reason.
04:43:36 <madbrrr> yeah that leaves rooks, bishops, knights and queens
04:43:49 <madbrrr> and extra kings
04:44:25 <oerjan> extra kings feels like cheating.
04:44:25 <itidus21> oerjan: :-? lemmings is a lot like that. nice point
04:44:43 <madbrrr> queens seem to have too much range
04:45:02 <zzo38> Although an idea I have thought of this year is a game that uses a horoscope as the board, updating in real time (so the time you take to make your move has consequences; obviously a time limit would also be required for each turn); you could have cards, with certain configurations you make allows you to play cards to adjust harmonic factors and house settings and whatever
04:45:02 <madbrrr> hard to make setups where they only can give one possible check
04:46:04 <zzo38> A game I have read about is called Quintuple Arcana, I don't know much about it except for: * The board and pieces * It has complete information and non random * The rules are extremely complicated and modes change depending on things in the game * There are even different levels of rules
04:46:06 <madbrrr> that leaves mostly rooks, bishops and knights
04:46:19 <itidus21> oerjan: so with the lemmings idea.. you could have a stream of pawns coming out of one tile every few moves, and your job is then to assign it a role such as queen or rook or knight
04:46:43 <zzo38> itidus21: Or bishop, too
04:46:51 <itidus21> and some deterministic behaviour for each one
04:47:05 <itidus21> there could be something in that
04:47:36 <oerjan> wait how does dwarf fortress fit in this :P
04:47:46 <itidus21> i havent played dwarf fortress
04:47:49 <itidus21> :))
04:47:49 <oerjan> me neither
04:48:04 <madbrrr> #
04:48:04 <madbrrr> # B ###
04:48:04 <madbrrr> # B R#
04:48:04 <madbrrr> #BB# k ###
04:48:04 <madbrrr> #########
04:48:05 <itidus21> dwarf fortress fits into everything
04:48:12 <oerjan> but from listening to those who do, it sounds like it has lots of roles
04:48:31 <oerjan> and somewhat self-determining characters
04:48:38 <itidus21> so i can imagine uh 2 aristocrats sitting by a board while a servant shifts the pieces around
04:49:26 <itidus21> and the notations would be something like: g5 to bishop
04:49:44 * Sgeo is now reading Dr. McNinja
04:49:55 <zzo38> I made up a game called "Giveaway Chess Puzzle", where you can make one move each turn. Goal is to lose all of your pieces. You must capture if able, otherwise you can make any move (if more than one capture is possible, you can choose which one). On computer player's turn, they automatically make all possible captures simultaneously.
04:50:02 <madbrrr> yeah ok bishops might do it
04:50:04 <oerjan> madbrrr: you are going to somehow need pieces to be able to check in different contexts to reset things
04:50:32 <itidus21> oerjan: the chess -> lemmings conceptual bridge there was quite wonderful
04:50:39 <oerjan> heh
04:51:02 <madbrrr> I wonder what's the computational class of lemmings
04:51:06 <zzo38> That can allow two pieces to end up in the same place. If they are the same kind of piece, it becomes a single piece of that kind. If they are different kind, it becomes a piece that cannot go. A computer player's piece might capture more than one thing, duplicating itself. If computer player's pieces cannot capture, you lose.
04:51:38 <madbrrr> it's likely that lemmings has a crazy computational class like NP complete
04:51:45 <zzo38> It doesn't have promotion, en passan, double step, check, checkmate, castling, etc
04:52:08 <itidus21> sort of like how in the movie The One, he kills his multiverse selves to become more powerful
04:52:10 <oerjan> madbrrr: NP complete is nowhere near crazy enough there :P
04:52:29 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSPACE-complete#Discussion
04:53:39 <oerjan> particularly last half
04:54:37 <itidus21> :((
04:55:19 <itidus21> heavy math topics made all the more inviting by board games
04:55:22 <oerjan> and by that i mean that the first half is more likely to explode your brain, and doesn't really talk about games.
04:55:40 <madbrrr> well
04:55:42 <madbrrr> hmm
04:56:26 <madbrrr> lemmings can present an obstacle that requires either N bashers, or M diggers
04:56:33 <madbrrr> for any value of N or M
04:56:36 <itidus21> oerjan: thanks for recognizing the brain exploding potential of these things
04:56:54 <oerjan> itidus21: your :(( gave me a bit of a clue there :P
04:57:09 <madbrrr> in fact it can present an obstacle that can be crossed with any combinations of bashers/diggers
04:57:18 <itidus21> im sick of these assholes in my other chatroom ..
04:57:26 <itidus21> i like half of them. and the other half i don't
04:57:37 <madbrrr> 1/N, 2/M, 3/O, 4/P, 5/Q, 6/R....
04:58:04 <itidus21> can ignore about 40% of them.. but that remaining 10% causes all the grief
04:58:34 <madbrrr> in fact an obstacle can have more or less any number of paths through it
04:59:02 <madbrrr> those paths can require any combination of bashers, diggers and builders
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05:03:52 <madbrrr> I don't think you can setup an infinite tape in lemmings
05:04:00 <madbrrr> or maybe even infinite lemmings
05:04:39 <itidus21> i don't like puzzles.. i don't know why..
05:05:09 <itidus21> the very word puzzle makes me kind of run away from a game
05:05:32 <madbrrr> best games are the ones where you have to plan
05:05:37 <itidus21> might be that i'm dumb
05:05:40 <madbrrr> example: mario 64
05:06:03 <itidus21> the thing about mario you see... is that mario isn't just a puzzle dressed up with pretty pictures
05:06:22 <madbrrr> in mario 64 you run around the level
05:06:29 <itidus21> just for the hell of it
05:06:29 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_complexity
05:06:30 <itidus21> yeah...
05:06:38 <madbrrr> and figure out that it has a bunch of paths, each with deadliness N
05:06:44 <madbrrr> then find out a star
05:06:58 <madbrrr> surprise, to get that star, you have to go in spots X, Y Z
05:07:10 <itidus21> yeah....
05:07:16 <madbrrr> the puzzle is figuring out the path that has the least overall deadliness
05:07:26 <itidus21> perhaps by that time it did start to become a puzzle
05:07:55 <itidus21> its very difficult for me to put into words
05:07:58 <madbrrr> A lot of games are puzzles, but very, very cleverly hidden puzzles
05:08:15 <itidus21> but theres a fine line between game and non-game i think
05:09:00 <myndzi\> <3 lemmings
05:09:05 <madbrrr> like, a good action game is about figuring out the game world and how to pass through its typical obstacle setup
05:09:14 <itidus21> i wonder which neuroses affect my interest in puzzle games
05:09:36 <madbrrr> that's part learning timings etc, but also it's a puzzle
05:09:47 <myndzi\> i was never content with just getting through lemmings levels
05:09:50 <myndzi\> i had to go back and save my blockers too
05:09:51 <myndzi\> ;)
05:09:56 <madbrrr> iti: it's the presentation... some puzzle games can have a very boring presentation
05:10:14 <madbrrr> ex: sokoban
05:10:20 <myndzi\> i couldn't care less.. unless it has boring puzzles :P
05:10:20 <itidus21> i love nothing more than to philosophize about these things
05:10:25 <myndzi\> sokoban is boring
05:10:29 <madbrrr> dude pushing boxes? fuck you
05:10:31 <myndzi\> it's fine as a component of other puzzle games
05:10:36 <myndzi\> or a theme level
05:10:41 <myndzi\> but i don't want to play 100 sokoban levels in a row
05:10:54 <myndzi\> the best puzzles have mechanical ingenuity and also variety
05:10:57 <madbrrr> puzzles become more interesting when they involve punching a dude in the face
05:10:59 <itidus21> theres this element of representation which the presentation adds
05:11:18 <itidus21> i mean "<madbrrr> iti: it's the presentation... some puzzle games can have a very boring presentation"
05:11:36 <itidus21> representation as in, representing things from the real world, or from other works of fiction
05:11:56 <itidus21> and the presentation can bring that representation
05:12:28 <itidus21> to me, that is one of the advantages of 3d games which can more closely represent the world around us
05:12:45 <madbrrr> other thing that I don't like: games where you can never kill the badguys
05:12:58 <madbrrr> only stun them for a couple seconds
05:13:11 <itidus21> so perhaps for people who like puzzle games, they are more capable of abstractly relating the business in a puzzle back to the real world
05:13:21 <myndzi\> - leet7.gif :>
05:13:22 <itidus21> whereas someone like me requires that shallow relation
05:13:24 <myndzi\> tricksy lemmingses
05:13:50 <myndzi\> no idea itidus
05:13:56 <itidus21> humm
05:13:57 <myndzi\> i don't care if it is anything like the real world :P
05:14:17 <myndzi\> one of my three favorite puzzle games has a marble that you move around with the mouse and basically play a game of memory with
05:14:22 <myndzi\> (through numerous obstacles)
05:14:36 <myndzi\> it's not very world-like :)
05:14:43 <itidus21> ok so the problem with sokoban is that you can't learn much from it perhaps?
05:14:54 <myndzi\> for me, the problem with sokoban is that it's boring
05:15:03 <itidus21> its just fundamentally boring basically? :D
05:15:04 <myndzi\> what i want from a puzzle game is FIGURING OUT NEW THINGS
05:15:15 <myndzi\> there's only so many ways you can figure out how to push a box in four directions
05:15:20 <myndzi\> everything after that is just variations on a theme
05:15:34 <myndzi\> i don't mind variations on a theme either, but it's rather monotonous in a game as simple as sokoban
05:15:46 <myndzi\> my favorite games have lots of variety, lots of levels, and they never bore me :)
05:16:30 <myndzi\> most of the time i like them with complex interactions, like chip's challenge or something
05:16:34 <myndzi\> where there are lots of different pieces
05:16:34 <itidus21> hmm yeah.. theres rarely real world sokoban puzzles... but it would make an interesting take for a "saw" movie
05:16:38 <myndzi\> but at the same time
05:16:45 <myndzi\> another of my favorites is crystalex
05:16:52 <myndzi\> and that's a pretty simple game, it just had great level design
05:16:59 <myndzi\> you have a little ball that bounces up and down
05:17:03 <myndzi\> you move it left and right
05:17:07 <zzo38> Game such as Hero Mesh can have a lot of level and lot of pieces. Currently you have to pay, but I have been working on a similar kind of thing but with Free software (and with some other things fixed too; so files cannot be directly compatible)
05:17:08 <itidus21> like.. someone trapped in a real world sokoban puzzle..with an ipad in his hand showing him the current state of things
05:17:14 <myndzi\> lol
05:17:26 <myndzi\> never heard of hero mesh
05:17:36 <itidus21> nope..
05:17:53 <myndzi\> you mean mesh:hero ?
05:17:59 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
05:18:01 <zzo38> I have written a PHP version once which is more than half complete but is slow and crashes a lot.
05:18:05 <myndzi\> looks like my kind of game
05:18:08 <zzo38> Later I will write a better program in C.
05:18:09 <myndzi\> kind of dated graphics though
05:18:15 <myndzi\> not that that matters much to me
05:18:18 <myndzi\> if the puzzles are good ;)
05:18:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:18:38 <zzo38> Yes the puzzles are good.
05:18:44 <myndzi\> actually it looks quite a bit like a ripoff of chip's challenge haha
05:18:48 <myndzi\> collect the chips/collect the hearts
05:18:49 <myndzi\> hmmm
05:18:49 <myndzi\> ;p
05:18:53 <itidus21> i just think it would be very funny if there was some movie about a sokoban killer who traps his victims in sokoban mazes
05:19:00 <zzo38> You can make up your own kind of pieces too.
05:19:04 <Patashu> http://www.puzzlebeast.com/ has some basic multi element puzzles that are taken to the extreme using genetic algorithms to make difficult levels
05:19:09 <Patashu> for the hardest ones you have to look extremely far ahead
05:19:12 <myndzi\> haha
05:19:26 <myndzi\> genetic algorithms based on what fitness function? how many players solve them?
05:19:26 <myndzi\> :P
05:19:39 <Patashu> based on how difficult it looks to solve
05:19:46 <itidus21> hmm
05:19:47 <Patashu> Ithink it looks at how long the solution is, as well as how many branches there are
05:19:50 <Patashu> it xplains it on the site
05:19:57 <itidus21> i wonder if they already made a sokoban the movie trailer
05:19:57 <Patashu> http://www.puzzlebeast.com/about/index.html
05:20:02 <myndzi\> interesting
05:20:18 <myndzi\> i remember some dude who tried to make a genetic shmup
05:20:24 <myndzi\> the fitness function was how long someone played it for
05:20:24 <myndzi\> haha
05:20:30 <zzo38> I will probably have even more limited graphics in my version, such as no animation and only one size of icons. As well as removing some other commands and adding a few new ones.
05:20:37 <Patashu> btw, mesh:hero reminds me (just looking at it not playing it) of drod and wonderquest
05:20:39 <Patashu> have you played those?
05:21:35 <zzo38> Depending on the level, you might not necessarily have to collect all the hearts. There can be different kind of rules you can program in, involving different kind of things.
05:22:53 <myndzi\> nope and nope
05:22:59 <myndzi\> i'm sure there's lots i haven't played
05:23:04 <myndzi\> i have a particular hatred of boulderdash though
05:23:10 <myndzi\> it's not boulderdash's fault
05:23:13 <myndzi\> its all the clones
05:23:13 <myndzi\> :P
05:23:35 <myndzi\> http://www.puzzlebeast.com/slidingblock/sliding_irritating.html <- irritating indeed
05:23:39 <myndzi\> that wasn't a fun puzzle, just a long one
05:23:39 <myndzi\> :(
05:23:42 * myndzi\ tries the next one
05:23:42 <zzo38> I intend to remove the GotoLevel command, since WinLevel and LoseLevel can imply those. As well as making object pointers not be machine pointers (preventing crashing and randomness), having restrictions on IgnoreKey (preventing breaking replayability), and so on.
05:23:52 <zzo38> I have not played drod and wonderquest
05:24:18 <Patashu> is it possible to shrink the resolution of MESH:Hero? It's taking up more than my current screen
05:24:24 <myndzi\> also the java implementation leaves a lot to be desired
05:24:25 <zzo38> Patashu: Yes.
05:24:40 <zzo38> View -> Image size A
05:24:48 <myndzi\> oh wait
05:24:48 <myndzi\> drod
05:24:51 <myndzi\> deadly rooms of death
05:24:56 <myndzi\> i didn't recognize it lowercase
05:25:03 <myndzi\> i'm ambivalent towards that one
05:25:13 <myndzi\> i played a bunch of kroz levels as a tiny kid haha
05:25:29 <Patashu> I don't see a 'view' button
05:25:31 <Patashu> I'm on the demo
05:26:05 <itidus21> one thing about presentation/display of a game is that various presentation(im overusing this word) methods just work more naturally with how our mind reacts to the world
05:26:45 <itidus21> like we have the understanding there already to process 3d coloured shapes... to compare 3d coloured shapes
05:27:14 <itidus21> so, if we ignore these processing facilities of the brain we can potentially make some comprehensions more burdensome
05:27:26 <zzo38> Patashu: The new version might have all those problem; I have the old version. I can make a shareware copy of the old version
05:27:31 <itidus21> and also our facility for symbolic association and so on
05:27:31 <Patashu> ah
05:28:31 <itidus21> like seeing a bar graph comparison of 10 vs 15.. compared to seeing the numbers 10 vs 15
05:28:47 <itidus21> they probably each have their own perceptive biases
05:30:07 <itidus21> well that is.. in a bar graph it becomes a representation of ratio of 2:3
05:30:57 <itidus21> so the numbers will give us more accuracy in doing arithmetic, but in actually comparing i would wonder if we better compare the bargraph
05:31:01 <myndzi\> i guess i just don't have any trouble with abstract visualization
05:31:09 <myndzi\> i mean, when you're solving a puzzle, usually associations harm you
05:31:38 <myndzi\> (associations lead to assumptions, and assumptions prevent new ideas)
05:32:19 <myndzi\> haha this shit's got lasers and fire and balloons and stuff
05:32:21 <myndzi\> classic :)
05:32:26 <zzo38> What kind of associations and assumptions?
05:32:31 <itidus21> myndzi\: i think i'm just not that smart really.
05:32:31 <myndzi\> any kind
05:32:43 <myndzi\> the key to solving puzzles is to always be able to come up with new ideas
05:32:53 <myndzi\> it helps if you're good at coming up with ideas that are close to correct
05:33:03 <myndzi\> but most people i've seen get stuck by running out of ideas
05:33:05 <itidus21> i can't get anything out of a puzzle unless the relationship of the puzzle to the real world is obvious and shallow
05:33:18 <myndzi\> that's too bad :(
05:33:29 <itidus21> im not sure why though
05:33:36 <itidus21> i blame it on some neuroses
05:34:08 <itidus21> hmm
05:34:22 <myndzi\> perhaps
05:34:28 <myndzi\> i've been doing puzzles since i was a little kid
05:34:34 <myndzi\> my dad used to buy me one every birthday and every christmas
05:34:48 <myndzi\> he eventually got pissed because they never lasted past the day i got them
05:34:49 <myndzi\> :>
05:35:04 <myndzi\> he told me in the end he would just go into puzzlettes and be like 'what's the hardest puzzle you have?'
05:35:34 <myndzi\> but even so, variety is required to hold my interest; i couldn't for example get heavy into block disassembly puzzles or something like that
05:35:41 <myndzi\> i have a few of many different kinds
05:35:47 <itidus21> :)
05:36:05 <myndzi\> one of my favorites is evil
05:36:06 <zzo38> Note the old version is 16-bit program. It does not allow loading or creating puzzle sets with more than three levels, but it does allow programming your own rules (unlike the new shareware version).
05:36:20 <myndzi\> it's a little cage that holds a steel marble
05:36:44 <myndzi\> http://www.calendars.com/img/p/400/200100010306.jpg
05:36:54 <myndzi\> last person i let try to solve it bent the bars and still didn't get it out :(
05:36:56 <myndzi\> i had to get a new one
05:37:12 <myndzi\> my old one was old enough that it had a shiny spot in the middle of the bars from friction with the ball haha
05:37:15 <Patashu> so what are you meant to do?
05:37:23 <myndzi\> it's not obvious? :P
05:37:26 <itidus21> myndzi\: i find it all too easy to think up impossible situations.. do you find that your understanding of puzzles helps avoid such things?
05:37:31 <myndzi\> goal = remove steel ball
05:37:46 <myndzi\> itidus21: not sure what you mean
05:37:54 <myndzi\> do you mean you give up too easily?
05:38:12 <myndzi\> i'm not sure i could come up with a situation that i could declare absolutely impossible :P
05:38:19 <myndzi\> i mean, i'm not gonna float up into space and walk on the sun anytime soon
05:38:22 <myndzi\> but you can't quite rule it out
05:38:23 <myndzi\> ;D
05:38:34 <itidus21> humm
05:39:00 <myndzi\> impossible means... never, in all time
05:39:05 <myndzi\> i prefer highly improbable :)
05:39:06 <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
05:39:30 <myndzi\> that's it?
05:39:42 <myndzi\> umm, solution: don't commit felonies
05:39:42 <myndzi\> :P
05:39:52 <myndzi\> or, weasel your way around the legal system for decades
05:39:59 <myndzi\> or just man up and get it over with
05:40:00 * myndzi\ shrugs
05:40:07 <itidus21> now on the surface it must seem impossible as if god himself (not to purport some religion) built the prison
05:40:08 <myndzi\> i don't consider that a puzzle, it's a situation
05:40:12 <myndzi\> puzzles have solutions :)
05:40:33 <itidus21> ok.. would you say then that some situations don't have solutions? :>
05:40:52 <myndzi\> well, if you're on death row there are still solutions
05:41:00 <myndzi\> doesn't mean they've very likely, but there ARE possibiliites
05:41:15 <myndzi\> presidential pardon, for example :P
05:41:33 <myndzi\> new evidence, jail break, bribery, nuclear holocaust... heh
05:41:39 <itidus21> hehe
05:41:46 <myndzi\> zombie breakout
05:41:58 <itidus21> so anyway.. i think such things is the uh... the true power of the master puzzle solver
05:42:15 * myndzi\ shrugs helplessly
05:42:26 <itidus21> solving difficult situations
05:42:28 <myndzi\> i remember distinctly one time when my little brother was having a go at one of my block puzzles
05:42:45 <myndzi\> this kind is made up of these c-shaped wooden blocks of various length
05:42:46 <myndzi\> s
05:42:54 <itidus21> theres something on wiki about learned helplessness
05:42:55 <zzo38> I can provide the "Hero Mesh PHP" to you too if you want, but notice it is slow and incomplete and it crashes a lot.
05:43:12 <myndzi\> http://www.adamdorman.com/_images/3d_wood_block.jpg
05:43:13 <myndzi\> something like that
05:43:28 <myndzi\> though the shape of that one is much different
05:43:41 <myndzi\> there was a combination of five pieces required to make a basic shape that repeated throughout the puzzle
05:43:46 <myndzi\> two long ones like this []
05:43:51 <myndzi\> two short ones clasping around the bottom of them
05:43:59 <myndzi\> and one going "through" and "up" hooking over the short ones; it all locks itself together
05:44:06 <myndzi\> that may not be very well-explained
05:44:24 <myndzi\> anyway, i saw him balance like four pieces and fumble and drop them trying to put the fifth in some weird way, over and over
05:44:39 <myndzi\> sometimes he got it and tried to go further, then hit a dead end or something
05:44:47 <myndzi\> he spent 80% of his time trying to balance these blocks to get them together
05:44:55 <myndzi\> and not once did he ever try to find a better way to assemble them
05:45:03 <myndzi\> (one that didn't require, say, balancing everything ridiculously)
05:45:30 <myndzi\> it's not only being able to come up with new ideas, it's also knowing to try
05:45:39 <myndzi\> of course, puzzles are a special case
05:45:50 <myndzi\> you can pretty much assume the opposite of occam's razor in the case of puzzles/puzzle games
05:46:03 <myndzi\> so it's easier to branch out quickly and rule out the simple stuff without much effort
05:46:37 <myndzi\> heh, i've actually noticed it affect other areas of my life ;)
05:46:39 <itidus21> ok so here you mean, you can usually have faith in a puzzle
05:46:45 <myndzi\> like if i drop something on the floor, i don't spend a lot of time searching in the same spot
05:46:51 <itidus21> hmm
05:47:00 <myndzi\> ah, well, specifically with regards to puzzle games
05:47:05 <myndzi\> yes, i have faith that a solution exists
05:47:15 <myndzi\> and so i am comfortable trying increasingly ridiculous things
05:47:21 <itidus21> yeah.. when my mom loses something in her room i am like that
05:47:27 <itidus21> sometimes
05:47:29 <itidus21> hmm
05:47:36 <myndzi\> one of the reasons i like crystalex so much is because its levels are designed so that you HAVE to do ridiculous things to succeed
05:47:39 <myndzi\> in many cases
05:47:42 <itidus21> wow this feels like a nintendo discussion
05:47:43 <myndzi\> like pixel perfect timing sometimes
05:47:53 <myndzi\> or long sequences without mistakes
05:48:11 <myndzi\> but with that game, i never ran out of ideas - i only had to get good enough to try them
05:48:23 <myndzi\> when it's not a game, i still don't give up easily
05:48:24 -!- darkmoth has joined.
05:48:44 <myndzi\> i spent 12 hours the other day learning how to use eclipse, write in java, and use a poorly documented library in order to accomplish a task
05:48:53 <myndzi\> but i guess i could have faith that there was an answer there, too
05:48:57 -!- darkmoth has left ("Ex-Chat").
05:49:09 <itidus21> so, this is like a non religious use of the power of faith
05:49:21 <myndzi\> well, it's not blind faith
05:49:37 <myndzi\> it's not like "something is magical and i'll just trust that it exists"
05:49:46 <myndzi\> it's "i know this should be possible, and i'm going to figure out how to do it"
05:50:03 <myndzi\> occasionally i do hit something where i have to put it down or give up, but not often; and i usually come back to it
05:50:17 <itidus21> so then this gets interesting... how do we know a solution exists?
05:50:37 <myndzi\> puzzle games aren't very fun without a solution :)
05:50:51 <myndzi\> with some programming knowledge you know what is possible with programming
05:51:07 <myndzi\> some things - like ai - aren't developed yet, but will probably be possible in the future
05:51:10 <itidus21> so.. then theres the star trek thing... where kirk made a solution by cheating
05:51:11 <myndzi\> but with more common tasks
05:51:23 <myndzi\> even if YOU don't know how to do it, you can frequently know that it's doable
05:51:31 <myndzi\> ha, i have one puzzle
05:51:36 <myndzi\> that's a big practical joke :)
05:51:57 <myndzi\> it's a long square thing with a hole in the length of it, open on one side
05:52:07 <myndzi\> at the bottom there are two holes drilled perpendicular through it
05:52:10 <itidus21> des cartes apparently used to intentionally send out math problems which had lies in them
05:52:12 <myndzi\> and a rubber band is looped through
05:52:27 <myndzi\> ah, well, discerning the lie is also possible :)
05:52:47 <myndzi\> the joke - you have the other piece, which has a round knob on the end, a long skinny pole with a hook at the end
05:52:52 <myndzi\> the supposed goal is to hook it on the rubber band
05:53:10 <myndzi\> you demonstrate this to someone by putting it in the hole and making some random ass motions like a puzzle box type thing
05:53:17 <myndzi\> and then you "pull" it out and it snaps back in
05:53:39 <myndzi\> that one took me about 5 minutes before i took the piece with the rod out and laid it along the outside to see that it wasn't long enough ;)
05:53:49 <myndzi\> the trick: you squeeze your fingers together and it shoots out of them
05:54:12 <myndzi\> so i guess even lies can have solutions
05:54:55 <itidus21> uhm
05:55:06 <Patashu> you squeeze your fingers together on what?
05:55:39 <itidus21> im guessing this is one of those things that would be easier to watch than read
05:55:44 <myndzi\> on the knob
05:55:45 <myndzi\> it's like
05:55:48 <itidus21> but i am really enjoying this topic
05:55:53 <myndzi\> ,------()
05:55:57 <itidus21> attacking my aversion to puzzles
05:56:07 <myndzi\> so you hold the knob
05:56:14 <myndzi\> and fidget around with the hook end inside the enclosure
05:56:23 <myndzi\> and then you pretend it's hooked by pulling it out and shooting it back
05:56:29 <myndzi\> then you "undo" it and give it to someone to try
05:56:40 <myndzi\> because of what i described about trying new things
05:56:44 <zzo38> I made a lot of puzzles in the Super ASCII MZX Town series of games.
05:56:50 <myndzi\> i quickly recognized that there was nothing to actually do with the rod in the hole
05:56:55 <myndzi\> and solved the problem
05:57:05 <myndzi\> but someone like my brother might sit there trying to hook it for an hour before giving up
05:57:36 <myndzi\> by the way itidus21, i didn't want to gloss over what you said about learned helplessness; i'm familiar with the concept, do you feel like it applies?
05:57:39 <itidus21> oh.. i was hoping that you were gonna say you were able to teach your brother the right way
05:57:59 <itidus21> i dont know much about it.. but i just think it is part of the topic
05:58:09 <myndzi\> ah
05:58:11 <itidus21> its really quite relevant infact
05:58:18 <myndzi\> i don't believe so
05:58:24 <myndzi\> it's a different kind of thing
05:58:31 <myndzi\> learned helplessness is being beaten down so much that you won't try anymore
05:58:46 <myndzi\> not being able to solve a puzzle is just how you've learned to approach problems and maybe something to do with base intelligence
05:58:54 <itidus21> but the effect is the same of not trying right?
05:59:03 <myndzi\> sorta
05:59:09 <myndzi\> in one case, you don't try because you're fucked up and depressed
05:59:14 <myndzi\> in the other, you don't realize there's anything else to try
05:59:43 <itidus21> ok thanks. i dont really know the details of any of these things
05:59:48 <myndzi\> i did try to teach my little sister about puzzle solving as an experiment
06:00:03 <myndzi\> but she doesn't have the ability to focus very long on something she's not terribly interested in ;)
06:00:11 <myndzi\> she is quite smart, but it wasn't for her
06:00:21 <myndzi\> i'm not sure if it's a "nature" or a "nurture" thing, but it may be a combination
06:00:38 <myndzi\> i know for a fact that many of my habits to approach problem solving were learned from my dad
06:00:45 <myndzi\> and his taking me to work with him and helping him etc.
06:00:51 <itidus21> so for me, puzzle and situation are more or less synonyms
06:01:09 <myndzi\> well, i think of the word puzzle as more specifically a kind of game
06:01:17 <myndzi\> if it doesn't have a solution, it's not a very good puzzle ;)
06:01:22 <myndzi\> but puzzles inherently have solutions
06:01:30 <itidus21> solving a situation then being applied puzzle-solving
06:01:31 <myndzi\> mysteries, on the other hand...?
06:01:50 <itidus21> so... then we run into the question of what it means to solve a situation
06:02:17 <Patashu> myndzi, if you want something hard to solve, try the last 7 levels of this game http://www.remar.se/daniel/castle.php
06:02:19 <itidus21> situations have the potential for serendipity :-?
06:02:21 <Patashu> I've been stuck on them for a while
06:02:24 <Patashu> maybe you can do better
06:02:54 <itidus21> uhmm..
06:03:08 <myndzi\> i guess i'd say
06:03:10 <itidus21> i guess it would seem that rules play a role
06:03:15 <myndzi\> you don't know if a situation is a puzzle or a mystery
06:03:15 <myndzi\> :)
06:03:24 <myndzi\> and the only way to prove that it's a puzzle is to solve it :P
06:04:14 <itidus21> in some cases you can cheat
06:04:35 <itidus21> so an interesting idea here is are there any puzzles that can't be cheated
06:04:48 <myndzi\> in terms of puzzle games
06:05:06 <myndzi\> there is no cheat
06:05:07 <myndzi\> :>
06:05:35 <myndzi\> well, i mean, there can be - but it doesn't really count
06:05:43 <myndzi\> it's the puzzle designer's job to ensure there are no shortcuts :P
06:05:55 <myndzi\> there's one level in crystalex like that
06:06:02 <itidus21> like, in sokoban, analyzing the sourcecode woudn't save you..
06:06:04 <myndzi\> it was one of the latest ones
06:06:21 <myndzi\> er, last ones* = hard ones
06:06:26 <myndzi\> but there was a simple shortcut to beat it
06:06:29 <myndzi\> the author was like lol
06:06:44 <myndzi\> yeah, i guess you could consider different classes of puzzles too :)
06:06:51 <itidus21> since the program merely encodes the rules... it doesn't show how to use those rules
06:07:09 <myndzi\> to me it's just something solvable
06:07:18 <myndzi\> reverse engineering an encrypted protocol is a puzzle
06:07:19 <myndzi\> :P
06:07:35 <myndzi\> (i'm lookin at you YVD and your "secure double encryption")
06:07:36 <itidus21> like.. you could have a chessboard with sokoban tiles...
06:07:48 <itidus21> and you could copy a board from a computerized sokoban
06:08:06 <itidus21> and you would have to say "how can i cheat?"
06:08:37 <myndzi\> the only person you cheat in a puzzle is yourself
06:08:40 <itidus21> perhaps to take the solution and work backwards to the beginning one might try
06:08:51 <myndzi\> accomplishing a goal isn't the reward; deriving the solution is
06:09:08 <myndzi\> i don't really consider a puzzle fully solved until i can encompass it in my mind
06:09:16 <myndzi\> sometimes i have to complete it many times before i can comprehend it
06:09:24 <myndzi\> but for the same reason i'm not much of a fan of things like the rubik's cube
06:09:28 <myndzi\> it's too... dry for me
06:09:33 <itidus21> hmm
06:09:34 <myndzi\> too mathematical, not interesting
06:09:43 <myndzi\> ironically i have an abiding interest in tetris
06:09:46 <myndzi\> which i consider the exception to the rule ;)
06:09:49 <itidus21> in the comicbook series rurouni kenshin, kenshin is always thinking outside of the box
06:10:21 <itidus21> and that is what makes him the best
06:10:37 <myndzi\> never read the manga
06:10:40 <myndzi\> watched about half the anime
06:10:47 <myndzi\> only particularly liked the first ova :P
06:10:48 <itidus21> i havent seen it all either
06:10:58 <myndzi\> the worst is something like death note
06:11:08 <myndzi\> where the author tries to write characters smarter than she(?) is
06:11:10 <myndzi\> hehe
06:11:15 <myndzi\> then it just comes out contrived and silly
06:11:20 <myndzi\> OHO THAT WAS MY PLAN ALL ALONG
06:11:25 <itidus21> an example would be.. that his sword is too long.. so he is losing a swordfight
06:11:37 <itidus21> so what he does is he holds the sword by the blade itself
06:12:14 <itidus21> which fixes the length problem.. most surprisingly to his opponent
06:12:41 <itidus21> so thats problem solving
06:12:58 <itidus21> heheh....
06:13:02 <myndzi\> something like that anyway :)
06:13:10 <myndzi\> i'm playing this 'castle of elite' now hehe
06:13:29 <itidus21> so.. i have started to think about the true power of such kinds of thinking
06:14:31 <itidus21> and so, this topic suggests that the best way to solve what appears to be an unsolvable situation is faith that there is a solution
06:14:48 <myndzi\> i suppose so
06:14:59 <myndzi\> it's more like a tradeoff between time and reward
06:15:14 <myndzi\> in the death row example, no matter how much time you spend, the reward is greater
06:15:25 <itidus21> sometimes the situation is trying to harm us
06:15:25 <myndzi\> but sometimes you don't have enough time, or you spend more than is worth it
06:15:26 <myndzi\> etc.
06:15:46 <zzo38> Read stuff about D&D game I have played. Often we try to do, having things even the dungeons master think is unsolvable, and then it can be solved. That is the best game.
06:17:19 <zzo38> After you put your socks on your cellular phone to absorb the radiation, what is the best way to clean out the radiation from the socks? [A] Put it in the microwave [B] Freeze it [C] Put it in the washing machine by itself [D] Wash them by hand
06:17:39 <zzo38> How many inches in a foot? [A] 12 [B] 49 [C] Meat [D] Pink
06:18:06 <zzo38> How many feet in a cup? [A] 3 [B] 12 [C] 56 [D] My foot doesn't fit in a cup.
06:18:17 <myndzi\> lol.
06:18:29 <itidus21> well i have this document called "ideas". last edited 3rd october. and one of the subheadings i put in is "Non-Obvious Solutions to Game Puzzles"
06:18:39 <itidus21> under this is listed
06:18:58 <itidus21> Wooden horse gift full of soldiers.
06:19:07 <itidus21> Using sword sheath as a weapon.
06:19:13 <itidus21> Holding sword by the blade.
06:19:33 <itidus21> Escaping wagon through wooden floor. (this was on some tv show)
06:19:41 <itidus21> Goku holding Raditz still and allowing Piccolo to kill both of them.
06:20:18 <itidus21> so.. this idea of treating real life situations kind of like puzzles really has my attention.
06:20:53 <itidus21> fits in with what zzo38 just said remarkably well
06:21:36 <zzo38> I think the best way of D&D game is deliberately unsolvable game that a working solution is found anyways.
06:21:59 <itidus21> so "unsolvable" is an illusion?
06:22:28 <zzo38> The dungeons master who invented it think it to be unsolvable but obviously they made a mistake
06:22:48 <itidus21> there are some inevitables like death and taxes
06:31:11 <zzo38> That is the kind of D&D game I like to play. I also like to play monster character, and some strange spells, etc. As well as difficult situation possibly not seem to be solvable. Probably different than most D&D game played.
06:32:08 <myndzi\> well this game departs from obvious satisfyingly quickly
06:32:19 <myndzi\> wish i hadn't been drinking beer all night beforehand now ;)
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06:41:08 <Patashu> hehe myndzi
06:42:53 <itidus21> zzo38: so i pondered on it a bit.. how does one create a space in which this type of solution exists
06:43:06 <itidus21> we really need a name for it..
06:43:29 <itidus21> such a solution that occurs in a deliberately unsolvable game
06:44:00 <zzo38> I don't know the name for it.
06:44:01 <myndzi\> if it's deliberately unsolvable
06:44:03 <myndzi\> and somebody solves it
06:44:07 <myndzi\> it's not a very good game :)
06:44:32 <itidus21> super mario bros had world -1
06:45:03 <itidus21> that was pretty amazing that a game accidently had the capacity to take you to a level which wasn't supposed to be tere
06:45:27 <myndzi\> world -1 was just data corruption
06:45:28 <myndzi\> :P
06:45:37 <itidus21> so what happened there was.. instead of hard checking
06:46:05 <itidus21> it just accepted whatever warp zone input it got
06:46:42 <itidus21> so this is a strange idea.. that making the rules of a game too formal and enforced.. and the players may well be trapped by them
06:47:14 <myndzi\> personally i like rules
06:47:24 <myndzi\> if the challenge is too open my brain explodes
06:47:24 <myndzi\> ;)
06:47:29 <myndzi\> i am faced with constant indecision
06:47:30 <itidus21> yeah you need rules
06:47:33 <myndzi\> give me a boundary to test any time
06:47:59 <itidus21> street fighter 2 also had some strange glitches
06:48:44 <zzo38> Try to play my Super ASCII MZX Town series of games.
06:48:55 <zzo38> It has some puzzles.
06:49:29 <itidus21> so game playing and problem/puzzle solving and solving the unsolvable and non-obvious solutions all seem to verge into something for me
06:49:55 <zzo38> This is PHP "PuzzleMesh" in case you are interested: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PuzzleMesh/PuzzleMesh-0-1-2.zip
06:51:03 <itidus21> super mario bros really fucked with peoples heads.
06:51:52 <itidus21> i study it a lot
06:54:10 <myndzi\> the blue dudes - do they do anything but bounce back and forth?
06:54:13 <myndzi\> i didn't read all the hints
06:54:19 <myndzi\> this one seems kind of pointless
06:54:56 <Patashu> they flip switches they go past
06:54:59 <Patashu> and die if you place a block over them
06:55:03 <Patashu> and kill you
06:55:08 <Patashu> think that's it
06:55:18 <myndzi\> heh ok
06:55:22 <myndzi\> guess he was just a pointless one then
06:55:25 <myndzi\> 2 away from hard
06:55:31 <Patashu> they can also go through teleporters
06:55:44 <myndzi\> yeah, i was just like.. why bother putting this guy here? he's not a challenge
06:55:56 <Patashu> red herring?
06:56:01 * myndzi\ shrugs
07:03:54 <myndzi\> the most rewarding thing for me is when i can logic my way through a puzzle :)
07:04:01 <myndzi\> like 2-12
07:08:33 <itidus21> myndzi\: another one is goku.. he seems to always find a solution to win a fight
07:08:47 <itidus21> he always warns the guy ahead of time.. i will beat you
07:08:53 <itidus21> give up now
07:08:56 <myndzi\> yeah, but that's 'cause he's a Chosen One :P
07:09:38 <itidus21> heh
07:15:20 <zzo38> At the end of the chapter I entered this text: (Can Kjugobe get out of prison (eventually)? What does Also do? Is Also a good name or is it confusing everyone? You don't know? Then you must learn. Read this book next time to learn what happens next$\ldots$)
07:15:24 <zzo38> Is it good?
07:25:17 <Patashu> I got stuck on one of the shareware levels in hero:mesh. the one with three worms and all the crates
07:27:19 <zzo38> Can your computer run 16-bit Windows programs? If so, I can give you the old shareware version
07:27:27 <Patashu> It should be able to it's widnows XP
07:27:29 <Patashu> *windows
07:27:43 <Patashu> If you have more levels for that game that would be cool
07:28:29 <zzo38> Yes I do have more levels I made up. However the shareware program will not load sets with more than three levels, so I will split it into sets with only three levels each if you want to play the more levels I have.
07:28:55 <Patashu> Only if it's not a bother to you
07:30:05 <zzo38> Not right now; maybe another day, though.
07:36:34 <zzo38> The more levels I have even have new kind of pieces, some of which I added in by myself.
07:36:54 <zzo38> This shareware is Falling Hero but it can be used to create and run normal Hero Heart game as well.
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07:41:43 <myndzi\> huh
07:41:45 <myndzi\> suddenly, dejavu
07:41:56 <myndzi\> i seem to remember this level
07:42:34 <oerjan> you said that before
07:42:40 <myndzi\> wut
07:42:44 * oerjan whistles innocently
07:42:46 <myndzi\> :P
07:44:01 <myndzi\> this level is a troll level
07:44:13 <myndzi\> i wanted to make the thing go up to the top but you don't have to :(
07:44:17 <myndzi\> this solution is much less fun
07:46:05 <myndzi\> omg
07:46:06 <myndzi\> this level too
07:46:11 <myndzi\> i'm going crazy! :P
07:47:22 <oerjan> `log alice.*mad.*come here
07:47:49 <oerjan> `echo hi
07:47:53 <HackEgo> 2008-02-17.txt:00:58:29: <oerjan> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
07:47:53 <HackEgo> hi
07:50:16 <itidus21> `echo Would you like some tea?
07:50:18 <HackEgo> Would you like some tea?
07:51:39 <itidus21> `echo @tell HackEgo I am confused.
07:51:41 <HackEgo> ​@tell HackEgo I am confused.
07:52:58 <oerjan> HackEgo will have put a zero width space before that @, so lambdabot ignores it.
07:53:13 <itidus21> oh i forget which bot s which
07:53:25 <itidus21> thats cool i was starting to feel guilty
07:53:56 <itidus21> i am forgetting that i am going among some clevers
07:59:03 <Patashu> how are you going myndzi?
08:00:03 <myndzi\> 3-8
08:00:06 <myndzi\> and very drunk
08:00:08 <myndzi\> lol
08:00:19 <myndzi\> i swear to god i've played this before
08:00:22 <myndzi\> i remember this level
08:00:22 <myndzi\> :|
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08:00:57 <Patashu> haha
08:01:02 <Patashu> ok, I need some quick LUA help
08:01:08 <Patashu> how do I iterate over the return values of http://www.wowpedia.org/API_strmatch ?
08:01:36 * oerjan just followed a long chain from U.N.C.L.E. to Jangal movement of Gilan
08:05:50 <oerjan> passing through such articles as Millennium, Comet, Weather, Hearth, Nature, Aesthetics, Demand (economics), Greenhouse gas, House, Democratic Party (United States), Washington D.C, City, Arabic language, United Nations, Refugee, List of ethnic slurs.
08:05:58 <oerjan> (reversed)
08:13:12 <myndzi\> jeah finally
08:13:15 <myndzi\> that took way too many tries
08:13:18 <myndzi\> my brain feels like mud
08:17:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, oerjan, how did the mathematician make sure he got the optimal amount of water from the ground?
08:22:20 <pikhq_> Something something spherical cow
08:23:24 <itidus21> `log euclidean
08:23:52 <HackEgo> 2010-05-23.txt:22:03:07: <Phantom_Hoover> Just make the geometry non-Euclidean.
08:24:06 <Patashu> First, assume ground always sinks in water...
08:24:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, he used the well ordering theorem, actually.
08:24:24 <Patashu> ha ha
08:25:29 <myndzi\> harl har
08:25:35 <myndzi\> i passed seven crosses with only six
08:25:36 <myndzi\> ;P
08:29:44 * oerjan throws an unstoppable object at Phantom_Hoover
08:30:01 * Phantom_Hoover ducks
08:30:08 <oerjan> curses, foiled again
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08:33:49 <myndzi\> lol i'm link
08:34:15 <Ngevd> Hello!
08:34:25 <itidus21> so, the idea of unstoppable object basically is a bad rule
08:34:29 <itidus21> in some cases
08:34:42 <itidus21> because... it will be literally unstoppable if the rule has it so
08:34:49 <itidus21> or..
08:34:59 <itidus21> maybe it is that some such rules are good yes
08:35:05 <itidus21> but not all rules should be so concrete
08:35:18 <itidus21> yeah the rule itself is ok
08:35:48 <myndzi\> belgian ales man
08:35:51 <myndzi\> belgian ales
08:36:44 <myndzi\> my hand-eye coordination is about to give out
08:36:44 <myndzi\> ;p
08:36:53 <myndzi\> ok which levels were you having trouble with?
08:36:54 <myndzi\> i'm on elite
08:41:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye).
08:42:01 * pikhq_ throws an immovable object at KERNEL PANIC. CORE DUMPED.
08:42:08 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi\, who are you talking to?
08:42:35 <myndzi\> patashu
08:46:22 <Patashu> yo
08:46:26 <Patashu> oh
08:46:36 <Patashu> 9,10,11,12 + the finalest level
08:46:39 <Patashu> are the only ones I haven't solved
08:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> What're you trying to play?
08:46:59 <myndzi\> ah, only on 4-2 so far
08:47:04 <Patashu> Castle of Elite
08:54:49 <myndzi\> i remember this level too
08:54:57 <myndzi\> i must have played this
08:55:02 <myndzi\> don't remember when or anything about it though
08:56:38 <Patashu> it's possible you could have, it's fairly old
08:56:56 <myndzi\> if i did i ran into it the same way, you
08:56:56 <myndzi\> haha
08:58:03 <myndzi\> if i did i must have beaten it
08:58:05 <myndzi\> i'd remember if i didn't
08:58:06 <myndzi\> hmmm
08:58:31 <Patashu> so if you beat the whole game really quickly can I assume it's because of supressed memories?
08:58:37 <myndzi\> lol
08:58:43 <myndzi\> nah, i don't remember any solutions
08:58:53 <myndzi\> i've just hit like 5 levels that seem familiar
08:59:34 <myndzi\> 4-2 is annoying
08:59:45 <myndzi\> but it's a great example of the kind of level i don't mind
09:00:06 <myndzi\> in one instance or a handful, i mean
09:00:12 <myndzi\> as opposed to an entire game of it
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09:04:34 -!- kallisti has joined.
09:05:27 <kallisti> hey
09:05:51 <kallisti> monqy: hello
09:05:58 <monqy> kallisti: hi
09:06:10 <monqy> help im in python hell
09:06:27 <monqy> i made incredibly stupid pattern matching to ease the pain but it still hurts
09:06:58 <kallisti> monqy: give me something more specific and maybe I can help? :P
09:07:09 <monqy> nothing specific
09:07:10 <monqy> just hell
09:07:11 <kallisti> or is there no escape?
09:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, are you sure it's not Python purgatory?
09:07:25 <monqy> hm
09:07:38 <kallisti> monqy: use more metaclasses
09:07:39 <kallisti> problem solved.
09:07:40 <monqy> punishment for me thinking taking this class would be a good idea
09:09:52 <monqy> with what do metaclasses help? everything?
09:10:39 <kallisti> yes always
09:10:52 <kallisti> "there is only metaclass to do it with" -- Python slogan
09:10:56 <kallisti> *only one
09:11:37 <monqy> I've never used metaclasses or decorators or anything like that..usually I avoid python, but this time I had no choice
09:11:46 <monqy> where by used I mean
09:11:48 <monqy> made them myself
09:11:56 <kallisti> decorators are good
09:12:10 <kallisti> kind of cumbersome to actually write, when they take parameters and stuff
09:12:15 <kallisti> but useful once you have them
09:13:00 <kallisti> of course the fact that they're syntactic sugar is simply a weakness of Python syntax.
09:13:03 <myndzi\> nice solution though annoying to implement
09:13:42 <kallisti> the decorator syntax would be completely unecessary if Python had good lambda syntax
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09:16:47 <Jafet> Lambdas are evil
09:16:51 <Jafet> Shame on you kallisti
09:16:58 <kallisti> I hope you're joking.. :P
09:17:09 <Jafet> You hope guido is joking
09:17:18 <kallisti> ...yes, I do.
09:17:20 <Jafet> But hope isn't cheap these days
09:17:28 <kallisti> I hope Python is revealed to be a joke language one day.
09:17:31 <monqy> it frustrated me when i tried reading the functional python guide and it told me that lambdas are unreadable and should be avoided
09:17:43 <kallisti> monqy: everything is unreadable.
09:17:57 <kallisti> assignment expressions? unreadable
09:17:57 <monqy> why did that guy write documentation on functional python if he can't aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh
09:18:13 <Patashu> c obfuscation contest? unreadable
09:18:14 <kallisti> python is basically not functional, though it claims to be.
09:18:29 <kallisti> the fact that functions are first-class really is not enough.
09:18:41 <monqy> python claims to be functional?
09:18:51 <kallisti> yes.
09:19:01 <kallisti> paradigms: object-oriented, imparative, functional
09:19:08 <kallisti> *imperative
09:19:12 <monqy> ahaha really?
09:19:14 <kallisti> yep
09:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <monqy> with what do metaclasses help? everything?
09:19:18 <monqy> who PUT that there
09:19:27 <kallisti> guido I'd guess? dunno
09:19:32 <monqy> pffffffffffffff
09:19:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Are metaclasses that thing cpressey linked to that I tried to make the Sierpinski numbers in response to?
09:20:01 <Jafet> van Rossum: setting dutch computer science back 80 years.
09:20:30 <kallisti> monqy: bahaha, "I’ll start by looking at a Python language feature that’s an important foundation for writing functional-style programs: iterators."
09:20:38 <kallisti> monqy: http://docs.python.org/howto/functional.html
09:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, no, that was those abstract base thingies.
09:21:03 <monqy> kallisti: yeah that's the one
09:21:22 <kallisti> "I'll start by looking at a Python language feature that's an important foundation for writing functional-style programs: object-orientation" -- this guide, in essence
09:21:48 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: metaclasses are to classes as classes are to objects
09:22:03 <kallisti> you use them to alter behavior during class creation.
09:22:13 <kallisti> they're usually not needed.
09:22:14 <monqy> "But it would be best of all if I had simply used a for loop:
09:22:14 <monqy> total = 0
09:22:16 <monqy> for a, b in items: total += b"
09:22:19 <monqy> this makes me so mad
09:22:21 <kallisti> but Django uses them for example for its DB model classes.
09:22:27 <monqy> for loops can go to hell
09:22:36 <kallisti> monqy: for loops: the essence of functional programming
09:23:24 <kallisti> "A theoretical benefit is that it’s easier to construct a mathematical proof that a functional program is correct."
09:23:36 <kallisti> wow this statement should be in a functional programming tutorial for Python.
09:23:40 <kallisti> *should NOT
09:26:23 <monqy> i wonder what otherr howtwos there are
09:26:37 <Patashu> I'm on the fourth level of mesh, falling hero and already hard
09:26:41 <Patashu> no clue what I'm expected to do
09:26:41 <monqy> here's a howto on python advocacy
09:26:44 <monqy> how to advocate python
09:27:00 <monqy> idioms and anti-idioms, this should also be good
09:27:01 <Sgeo> monqy, Python for loops are really foreach
09:27:11 <monqy> Sgeo: they can still go to hell
09:27:27 <Sgeo> Haskell has a foreach, it calls it forM_
09:27:31 <Sgeo> :t forM_
09:27:32 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
09:27:40 <monqy> haskell has lots of things
09:28:16 <kallisti> Sgeo: Haskell has decorators. they're called functions.
09:28:19 <kallisti> therefore..... (????)
09:30:30 <kallisti> on an unrelated note, I'm reading an article on how automatic transmissions work.
09:30:33 <kallisti> and it's blowing my mind.
09:30:37 <kallisti> so complicated.
09:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It rests on planetary gears, right?
09:33:46 <kallisti> yes
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09:39:13 <myndzi\> mmk too drunk to continue :P
09:39:26 <myndzi\> completed: all the lower levels and 1-5 of elite
09:39:42 <Patashu> haha appreciate it
09:39:45 <myndzi\> if i remember i'll come back to it tomorrow and see if i can't crack the ones you have left
09:39:46 <myndzi\> :)
09:40:00 <myndzi\> i'll leave the game up to remind me!
09:47:06 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/automatic-transmission-brain.jpg
09:47:22 <kallisti> all of those passageways rooute the hydraulic fluid that determines when the car shifts gears.
09:49:12 <kallisti> so for example if you're accelerate rapidly it will shift at highe RPMS, but if you're accelerating softly it will shift at lower RPMs, and if you go full throttle the car will downshift (to increase the gear ratio so that the car accelerates faster, presumably what you wanted to do)
09:50:43 <Jafet> For some strange reason, we still aren't letting cars just drive themselves
09:50:49 <Jafet> Silly peoples
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09:52:50 <kallisti> automatic transmissions
09:52:55 <kallisti> are so much simpler than this.
09:52:56 <kallisti> er
09:53:01 <kallisti> s/automatic/manual/
09:56:13 <kallisti> also there's a little valve on the drive shaft that opens wider via centrifugal force as the drive shaft spins; this is what controls the fluid pressure in the hydraulic system. more pressure = faster speed.
09:57:25 <Sgeo> UPDATE
09:58:20 <kallisti> it's like...
09:58:25 <kallisti> hydraulic logic circuits.
09:58:27 <kallisti> SO COOL.
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10:03:48 <Patashu> wow, awesome
10:03:54 <Patashu> mesh: falling hero has water pressure XD
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11:29:26 <hhj> Hi
11:29:34 <Ngevd> Hello
11:30:13 <hhj> FireFly: hi
11:30:18 <hhj> Hey
11:30:40 <hhj> fizzie: oy
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11:59:38 <Ngevd> Who's hhj?
13:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hoover Heavy Juggalo.
13:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> We use him for PR.
13:13:22 <Ngevd> I'm the only person I have ever heard of who convinced himself that his best friend was imaginary
13:14:24 <Sgeo> You like the number i?
13:14:28 <Sgeo> (Sorry)
13:14:48 <Ngevd> Bah, i is as real (in the non-mathematical sense) as any other number
13:15:07 <Ngevd> But yeah, I did once convince myself that my best friend was imaginary
13:15:14 <Ngevd> It was scarily easy
13:15:20 <Ngevd> I'm pretty sure he isn't
13:15:54 <Jafet> Have you told him to get real?
13:17:31 <Ngevd> Missed opportunity right there
13:17:52 <Ngevd> Can Haiku use Java?
13:18:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you tried adding him to his complex complement?
13:25:40 <Ngevd> Hmm
13:25:43 <Ngevd> Could work
13:25:46 <Ngevd> How do I unaway?
13:26:56 <Ngevd> There we go
13:28:53 <oklopol> Ngevd: i wondered if my friends are real in elementary school
13:29:20 <Ngevd> But did you convince yourself with a rational argument?
13:30:12 <oklopol> and i made sure i have as complete as possible a graph between all the people i know with respect to knowing each other
13:30:40 <Ngevd> Mine would be...
13:30:42 <oklopol> Ngevd: like what? i certainly convinced myself that there's no way to know
13:31:03 <Ngevd> I reasoned that he had come into my life when I was feeling lonely
13:31:28 <Ngevd> And is really cool and stuff and isn't the kind of person who would be friends with me
13:32:18 <Ngevd> So, it was quite likely that he was a fabrication of my mind
13:32:37 <oklopol> did you do any sort of checks?
13:33:07 <Ngevd> The next day, I asked him if he was real
13:33:10 <Ngevd> He said "yes"
13:33:16 <Ngevd> Then I asked his girlfriend
13:33:20 <Ngevd> She said "yes"
13:33:24 <oklopol> it's sort of trivial to at least make sure that it's not the case that that friend is imaginary in all instances, and your other friends never are.
13:33:41 <oklopol> his girlfriend, who's a third party you only know through him?
13:33:51 <Ngevd> !!!
13:34:19 <Ngevd> No, other people know him, who I met before him
13:34:28 <oklopol> and why the hell would you ask them that, are you crazy enough that that's considered normal for you? :P
13:34:37 <Ngevd> Pretty much
13:34:50 <Ngevd> I once almost convinced myself that /I'm/ imaginary
13:34:58 <Ngevd> Suck on that, Descartes!
13:35:12 <oklopol> i'm not at all sure i exist either
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13:35:39 <Ngevd> oerjan, do you know whether oklopol or I exist?
13:35:54 <oerjan> heh
13:36:40 <oerjan> well i don't know whether this laptop i'm typing on exists...
13:37:01 <Ngevd> Now I will go and see the new Tintin film
13:37:40 <oklopol> Ngevd: but anyhow i never asked anyone if they exist, since i went with the all or nothing assumption in imaginary friends, instead i actually went through literally everyone i know and tried to made sure they have a connection to my parents
13:38:57 <oklopol> i was like 8 so i didn't know it would have to be someone important to me
13:39:22 <Ngevd> I was 14 or 15 when this happened
13:39:54 <Ngevd> Wait, it was just before my 16th birthday
13:39:55 <oklopol> at 15, i don't think i would've given a shit if my friends were imaginary
13:40:16 <Ngevd> I will go watch movie now
13:40:23 <oklopol> have fun
13:40:27 <oklopol> i would now, probably
13:40:27 <Ngevd> Farewell, people of similar interests!
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13:40:55 <oklopol> being afraid you might just be insane is not really an interest
13:41:02 <oklopol> it's not, right?
13:41:34 <Jafet> As we might just be insane, it could be.
13:42:00 <oklopol> u see.
13:42:30 <Jafet> I bet oklopol is imaginary.
13:43:20 <oklopol> who knows
13:45:48 <oerjan> `log alice.*mad.*come here
13:45:54 <HackEgo> 2011-07-16.txt:21:17:53: <oerjan> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
13:46:48 <oerjan> !python print "test"
13:46:51 <EgoBot> test
13:47:23 <oerjan> !python print re('''"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."''')
13:47:24 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
13:47:30 <oerjan> oops
13:47:40 <oerjan> !python print rep('''"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."''')
13:47:41 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
13:47:56 <oerjan> dammit what is the name of that function
13:48:24 <Jafet> !python print "test"*999999999
13:48:24 <EgoBot> Traceback (most recent call last):
13:48:37 <oerjan> oh hm
13:48:56 <oerjan> !python print '%r'%'''"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."'''
13:48:57 <EgoBot> ​'"But I don\'t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can\'t help that," said the Cat: "we\'re all mad here. I\'m mad. You\'re mad." "How do you know I\'m mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn\'t have come here."'
13:49:44 <oerjan> `python test
13:49:47 <HackEgo> python: can't open file 'test': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
13:49:59 <oerjan> `python -e print "test"
13:50:02 <HackEgo> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
13:50:21 <oerjan> *sigh*
13:50:30 <oerjan> `run echo '\''
13:50:32 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
13:50:38 <oerjan> goddammit
13:51:00 <oerjan> oh wait
13:51:46 <Jafet> !python print repr("Only the fool would take trouble to verify that his sentence was composed of ten a's, three b's, four c's, four d's, forty-six e's, sixteen f's, four g's, thirteen h's, fifteen i's, two k's, nine l's, four m's, twenty-five n's, twenty-four o's, five p's, sixteen r's, forty-one s's, thirty-seven t's, ten u's, eight v's, eight w's, four x's, eleven y's, twenty-seven commas, twenty-three apostrophes, seven hyphens and, last but not least
13:51:47 <EgoBot> File "<stdin>", line 1
13:53:04 <oerjan> `run echo '"But I don'"'"'t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can'"'"'t help that," said the Cat: "we'"'"'re all mad here. I'"'"'m mad. You'"'"'re mad." "How do you know I'"'"'m mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn'"'"'t have come here." >wisdom/mad
13:53:06 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
13:53:14 <oerjan> `run echo '"But I don'"'"'t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can'"'"'t help that," said the Cat: "we'"'"'re all mad here. I'"'"'m mad. You'"'"'re mad." "How do you know I'"'"'m mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn'"'"'t have come here."' >wisdom/mad
13:53:16 <HackEgo> No output.
13:53:21 <oerjan> `? mad
13:53:23 <HackEgo> ​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
13:54:50 <oerjan> oh hm...
13:55:18 <oerjan> `learn "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
13:55:20 <HackEgo> I knew that.
13:55:29 <oerjan> `? "But
13:55:31 <HackEgo> ​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
13:56:03 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/'"But' wisdom/mad
13:56:05 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `wisdom/"But': No such file or directory
13:56:15 <oerjan> huh
13:56:24 <oerjan> `ls wisdom
13:56:26 <HackEgo> ​"but \ ? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ elliott \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ ievan \ intercal \ itidus20 \ kallisti \ mad \ monad \ monads \ monoid \ monqy \ nooga \ oerjan \ oklopol \ phantom__hoover \ phantom_hoover \ php \ qdb \ qdbformat \ quine \ sgeo \ shachaf \ u \ vorpal \ welcome \ wiki \ you
13:56:33 <oerjan> ah
13:56:41 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/'"but' wisdom/mad
13:56:43 <HackEgo> No output.
13:56:48 <oerjan> `? mad
13:56:50 <HackEgo> ​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
13:57:18 <Jafet> "She's mad!" ~ Meg Giry
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15:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Aww, Introversion god rid of their motto.
15:17:45 <Sgeo> Hmm?
15:28:25 <Phantom_Hoover> *got
15:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It used to be "The last of the bedroom programmers."
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16:20:05 <elliott> -MemoServ- You have 8 new memos.
16:20:05 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:20:23 <ais523> why is elliott being spammed with messages?
16:20:31 * oerjan whistles innocently
16:20:46 <oerjan> well, a few of them may be mine
16:20:50 <elliott> memoserv sends receipts :P
16:21:09 <elliott> -MemoServ- They must be read one by one. ;P
16:21:12 <elliott> oerjan: /ms read new
16:21:16 <elliott> repeat until done
16:21:24 <oerjan> elliott: yeah yeah
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16:28:28 <Ngevd> Hello!
16:36:53 <ais523> hi
16:37:03 <ais523> <-- oerjan has left this server (Quit: Good night).
16:37:13 <ais523> that was at 4:25 UTC
16:37:18 <ais523> which is not night-time in Norway
16:37:21 <ais523> mystery?
16:37:26 <Ngevd> He could be far up North?
16:37:54 <elliott> ais523: oh come on, you know oerjan's sleep schedule by now
16:38:04 <elliott> that's at least two people who aren't paying enough attention to the channel
16:38:18 <elliott> you both know who you are and I'm disappointed in you
16:38:44 <ais523> `
16:38:46 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
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16:57:25 <elliott> ais523: i think you may need a new response
16:57:38 <ais523> heh
16:57:45 <ais523> I was half-wondering if HackEgo would do that
17:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god is Sgeo reading Dr McNinja.
17:25:55 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
17:34:53 <Ngevd> Huh
17:35:12 <Ngevd> I didn't make any CoaPs in the 300's or 500's
17:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And that's terrible.
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17:56:06 <Ngevd> I follow 24 webcomics
17:56:29 <Ngevd> 23
17:56:51 <Ngevd> In ALPHABETICAL ORDER!!!
17:57:37 <elliott> there are fewer comics depending on the order you count them in?
17:57:54 <PiRSquared17> LOL
17:57:54 <Ngevd> No, I just stopped reading Three Panel Soul
17:58:07 <Ngevd> And announced that I was going to say them all in alphabetical order
17:58:13 <PiRSquared17> ...
17:58:17 <elliott> `addquote <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
17:58:20 <HackEgo> 739) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
17:59:10 <elliott> Ngevd: We're all waiting. :'(
17:59:41 <PiRSquared17> `karma+ elliott
17:59:46 <HackEgo> elliott now has 1 karma.
17:59:56 <elliott> Why don't I have a billion karma.
18:00:06 <Ngevd> Awkward Fumbles, Brawl in the Family, Cheer, City of Reality, Comments on a Postcard, Darths & Droids, El Goonish Shive, Freefall, Girl Genius, Goost 26, Gunnerkrigg Court, Homestuck, Irregular Webcomic, Lightning Made of Owls, Misfile, New World Comics, Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki, Square Root of Minus Garfield, Super Effective, Tranquility Base, xkcd, and The Wotch
18:00:15 <elliott> t comes after x
18:00:18 <elliott> as everyone knows
18:00:25 <PiRSquared17> `cat karma/elliott
18:00:26 <Ngevd> The "the" isn't counted
18:00:28 <HackEgo> cat: karma/elliott: Not a directory
18:00:30 -!- monqy has joined.
18:00:36 <Ngevd> `ls karma
18:00:39 <HackEgo> karma
18:00:47 <Ngevd> `ls karma/karma
18:00:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access karma/karma: Not a directory
18:01:00 <Ngevd> `cat karma/karma
18:01:02 <HackEgo> cat: karma/karma: Not a directory
18:01:10 * elliott facepalm
18:01:11 <PiRSquared17> ...
18:01:16 <elliott> `run ls -lh karma
18:01:18 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 25 Nov 26 18:01 karma
18:01:19 <PiRSquared17> `more karma/karma
18:01:21 <HackEgo> karma/karma: Not a directory
18:01:26 <elliott> IT'S NOT A DIRECTORY
18:01:26 <PiRSquared17> `more karma
18:01:29 <HackEgo> elliott now has 1 karma.
18:01:31 <Ngevd> `dog karma
18:01:33 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
18:01:56 <PiRSquared17> `ls karma
18:01:58 <HackEgo> karma
18:02:05 <monqy> hi
18:02:06 <PiRSquared17> `cat karma/karma
18:02:07 <HackEgo> cat: karma/karma: Not a directory
18:02:09 <monqy> no stop
18:02:10 <monqy> stop
18:02:11 <monqy> i
18:02:12 <monqy> ;_;
18:02:12 <PiRSquared17> ?
18:02:21 <monqy> not a directory ;_; ;_; ;_;
18:02:37 <elliott> `file karma
18:02:39 <HackEgo> karma: ASCII text
18:02:50 <PiRSquared17> `cat karma
18:02:52 <HackEgo> elliott now has 1 karma.
18:03:04 <PiRSquared17> `whereis karma
18:03:07 <HackEgo> karma:
18:03:10 <PiRSquared17> `which karma
18:03:12 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/karma
18:03:17 <Ngevd> `who karma
18:03:18 <PiRSquared17> `cat ​/hackenv/bin/karma
18:03:19 <HackEgo> No output.
18:03:20 <HackEgo> cat: ​/hackenv/bin/karma: No such file or directory
18:03:25 <PiRSquared17> ???
18:03:31 <elliott> `pwd
18:03:33 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv
18:03:35 <elliott> `ls bin/karma
18:03:37 <HackEgo> bin/karma
18:03:42 <elliott> `cat /hackenv/bin/karma
18:03:44 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(lib/karma "$1") karma."
18:03:59 <elliott> dunno why it didn't work that time
18:04:03 <Ngevd> `ls lib/karma
18:04:05 <HackEgo> lib/karma
18:04:34 <Ngevd> `karma Ngevd
18:04:39 <HackEgo> Ngevd has 0 karma.
18:04:42 <Ngevd> `karma Taneb
18:04:46 <HackEgo> Taneb has 0 karma.
18:04:50 <Ngevd> Aww
18:04:54 <elliott> `karma+ Ngevd
18:04:59 <HackEgo> Ngevd now has 1 karma.
18:04:59 <elliott> `karma- Taneb
18:05:04 <HackEgo> Taneb now has -1 karma.
18:05:10 <PiRSquared17> @pointless \x -> f x x
18:05:10 <lambdabot> join f
18:05:19 <PiRSquared17> @pointless \x -> x ^2
18:05:20 <lambdabot> (^ 2)
18:05:23 <PiRSquared17> obv
18:05:41 <Ngevd> @pointless \a b -> b
18:05:41 <lambdabot> const id
18:05:52 <Ngevd> @pointless \a b -> b a
18:05:53 <lambdabot> flip id
18:06:27 <Ngevd> `karma Taneb|Hovercraft
18:06:31 <HackEgo> Taneb|Hovercraft has 0 karma.
18:06:32 <Ngevd> `karma Taneb|Kindle
18:06:37 <HackEgo> Taneb|Kindle has 0 karma.
18:06:48 <Ngevd> `karma ettioll
18:06:53 <HackEgo> ettioll has 0 karma.
18:07:07 <Ngevd> `karma noqmy
18:07:11 <HackEgo> noqmy has 0 karma.
18:07:18 <Ngevd> Nobody karmas any of me
18:07:24 <Ngevd> Except for elliott, but he balances out
18:07:36 <elliott> :(
18:07:38 <elliott> `karma+ Ngevd
18:07:43 <HackEgo> Ngevd now has 2 karma.
18:07:50 <Ngevd> `karma+ elliott
18:07:55 <HackEgo> elliott now has 2 karma.
18:08:06 <elliott> Karmae.
18:08:25 <Ngevd> Could be Greek
18:08:58 <monqy> `karma+ noqmy
18:09:03 <HackEgo> noqmy now has 1 karma.
18:09:10 <Ngevd> karmai
18:09:16 <Ngevd> `karma+ fungot
18:09:17 <fungot> Ngevd: ' heheh, i gets heads like that myself when i first arrived here. but if she'd had to take it away
18:09:20 <HackEgo> fungot now has 1 karma.
18:09:33 <Ngevd> Because fungot is awesome
18:09:33 <fungot> Ngevd: brutha stepped back. no‑one bothered her when she goes home.' he
18:09:40 <elliott> Karmae.
18:09:42 <elliott> oops
18:09:44 <elliott> `karma+ fungot
18:09:44 <elliott> `karma+ fungot
18:09:44 <fungot> elliott: ' good idea, like another drink. then she looked at the man's mind?" said rincewind.
18:09:44 <elliott> `karma+ fungot
18:09:45 <elliott> `karma+ fungot
18:09:45 <fungot> elliott: " that's right. i'm working, people are saying it might have happened.' vimes sighed. all around them, she thought, that was just the lady's maid to queen molly."
18:09:45 <fungot> elliott: " hmm?" captain vimes, who shrugged.
18:09:45 <fungot> elliott: ' er... well, to have sky on the horizon like a lightly-poached egg.' he pinched the bridge of his nose again.
18:09:50 <elliott> `karma+ fungot
18:10:02 <monqy> `karma+ fungot
18:10:02 <fungot> monqy: the elf looked down at his face with the effort of calculation.
18:10:04 <Ngevd> `karma- boxbot # nobody likes boxbot
18:10:14 <monqy> whats a boxbot
18:10:16 <HackEgo> fungot now has 2 karma.
18:10:23 <HackEgo> fungot now has 2 karma.
18:10:26 <HackEgo> fungot now has 2 karma.
18:10:26 <HackEgo> boxbot # nobody likes boxbot now has -1 karma.
18:10:29 <HackEgo> fungot now has 2 karma.
18:10:30 <HackEgo> fungot now has 2 karma.
18:10:30 <HackEgo> fungot now has 2 karma.
18:10:32 <Ngevd> WHAT
18:10:34 <elliott> `karma fungot
18:10:34 <fungot> elliott: " ok," said leonard.
18:10:39 <elliott> commands are isolated
18:10:43 <HackEgo> fungot has 3 karma.
18:10:51 <elliott> commands are isolated
18:10:53 <elliott> oops
18:10:55 <elliott> `karma fungot
18:10:55 <fungot> elliott: angua glanced through the grubby window. the fog was hull that had been in the baby's mind, l can tell by the way the sphinx was moving its lips silently, as though it moved of its own.
18:10:59 <HackEgo> fungot has 3 karma.
18:11:03 <elliott> huh :P
18:11:11 <Ngevd> monqy, Gunnerkrigg court
18:13:07 <Ngevd> http://gunnerkrigg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=410&page=1
18:13:58 <PiRSquared17> > map (\x -> x^2 - x*2 - x+2) [0..]
18:13:58 <lambdabot> Ambiguous occurrence `-'
18:13:59 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.-', defined at <local...
18:14:14 <PiRSquared17> > map (\x -> (x^2) - (x*2) - (x+2)) [0..]
18:14:14 <lambdabot> Ambiguous occurrence `-'
18:14:15 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.-', defined at <local...
18:14:17 <PiRSquared17> ...
18:14:27 <PiRSquared17> > map (\x -> ((x^2) - (x*2)) - (x+2)) [0..]
18:14:27 <lambdabot> Ambiguous occurrence `-'
18:14:28 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.-', defined at <local...
18:14:37 <PiRSquared17> @more
18:15:39 <monqy> boxbot looks friendly and nice
18:15:42 <monqy> a friend??
18:15:48 <Ngevd> BOXBOT IS TERRIBLE
18:15:55 <Ngevd> NOBODY LIKES BOXBOT
18:16:06 <Ngevd> He's just a box with arms
18:16:11 <Ngevd> You may be thinking of Robox
18:16:12 <monqy> i love boxbot already
18:16:21 <Ngevd> Everyone loves Robox
18:16:27 <monqy> whats a robox
18:16:38 <Ngevd> "Box with legs" doesn't even BEGIN to describe it
18:16:49 <monqy> then both are good
18:17:05 <PiRSquared17> Roblox?
18:17:08 <Ngevd> http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=510
18:17:13 <PiRSquared17> robox?
18:17:17 <PiRSquared17> boxbot?
18:17:36 <Ngevd> http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=205
18:17:43 <elliott> `addquote <Ngevd> BOXBOT IS TERRIBLE <Ngevd> NOBODY LIKES BOXBOT <Ngevd> He's just a box with arms <monqy> i love boxbot already
18:17:44 <HackEgo> 740) <Ngevd> BOXBOT IS TERRIBLE <Ngevd> NOBODY LIKES BOXBOT <Ngevd> He's just a box with arms <monqy> i love boxbot already
18:18:19 <monqy> im conclude: both robox and boxbot are good
18:18:26 <Ngevd> LIES
18:18:32 <Ngevd> BOXBOT IS TERRIBLE
18:18:40 <monqy> lies
18:18:43 <monqy> boxbot is friend
18:18:48 <monqy> friendbot
18:18:53 <monqy> boxfriend
18:19:14 <elliott> im friend too
18:19:17 <elliott> of box
18:19:17 <elliott> bot
18:20:24 <Ngevd> http://gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Boxbot
18:21:54 <elliott> hi oklopol
18:22:01 <oklopol> hi elliott
18:22:37 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
18:22:40 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
18:22:42 <oklopol> kokok
18:22:44 <oklopol> kjgj
18:22:45 <oklopol> okko
18:22:47 <oklopol> ollon
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18:23:19 <elliott> avant okoing
18:24:28 <oklopol> maybe i could have a beer if i reached really far under my desk
18:24:54 <Ngevd> Maybe I could have a beer if I went to oklopol's desk and stole it from him
18:25:01 <Ngevd> oklopol, where's your desk?
18:25:40 <oklopol> under my roof.
18:25:53 <oklopol> which i rent so it's mine for now
18:26:08 <Ngevd> Hmm
18:26:17 <oklopol> i also rent the ceiling
18:26:18 <Ngevd> I've been meaning to go to oklopol-house
18:26:47 <oklopol> i don't really let people in before i clean this place up
18:26:49 <oklopol> so never
18:27:02 <oklopol> well under special circumstances
18:27:29 <elliott> sorry Ngevd oklopol prioritises me over you
18:27:33 <elliott> (it's a funny joke)
18:28:12 <oklopol> well i don't really know much about Ngevd
18:28:34 <Ngevd> I'm like elliott but simultaneously less and more weird
18:28:35 <oklopol> unless he's also used other nicks. my irc memory is getting kind of worse.
18:28:40 <elliott> oklopol: taneb
18:28:41 <Ngevd> I'm Taneb
18:28:48 <oklopol> i knew that
18:28:52 <oklopol> kind of
18:28:53 <elliott> no then
18:28:56 <Ngevd> You're quoted on my User page
18:29:31 <oklopol> right so okay i know a lot about Ngevd then, and i should definitely consider sleeping more
18:29:39 <oklopol> i think i'm becoming even stupider
18:29:57 <elliott> quite impossible :D :D :D D:D D D:
18:29:57 <PiRSquared17> `log all me
18:30:10 <elliott> all me
18:30:23 <PiRSquared17> `log numbers\ of\ 0
18:30:23 <HackEgo> 2009-11-01.txt:13:05:52: <AnMaster> ehird, and those spaces are all messed up
18:30:28 <HackEgo> No output.
18:30:31 <PiRSquared17> `log all me
18:30:36 <HackEgo> 2010-11-27.txt:18:54:44: <Vorpal> elliott, also why did you call me crazy?
18:30:44 <PiRSquared17> `log are all me
18:30:45 <elliott> all me
18:30:47 <oklopol> our game can only handle 17000 elevators before it starts getting slow :(
18:30:49 <HackEgo> 2011-02-14.txt:23:46:34: <elliott> Our minorities statistics are all messed up. Er, Christians are in a minority, right?
18:30:56 <elliott> oklopol: whats evelator
18:31:25 <oklopol> nono you have to read it from left to right, otherwise it might change its meaning
18:31:27 <oklopol> try again
18:31:56 <elliott> oklopol: whats
18:31:58 <elliott> oklopol: elevator
18:32:10 <oklopol> it's just a thing that goes back and forth
18:33:44 <oklopol> i like the smell of burning body hair
18:46:11 <oklopol> Ngevd: you like beer?
18:46:18 <oklopol> how did i not know this
18:46:26 <Ngevd> I like beer, but not all too much
18:46:35 <Ngevd> In fact, I will have one shortly
18:47:23 <Ngevd> It appears to be Heineken
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18:50:04 <elliott> Ngevd: How can you like beer, you're like 5 years old.
18:50:15 <Ngevd> I'm older than you shut up
18:50:29 <elliott> Yes the fact that I am 4 is not relevant Ngevd.
18:50:49 <Ngevd> And it's legal to drink at 5 in Britain
18:50:53 <Ngevd> in some circumstances
18:50:58 <Ngevd> Drink alcohol, that is
18:51:09 -!- PiRSquared17 has left.
18:51:29 <elliott> Yes but you're still 5.
18:52:58 <Ngevd> Dutch beer and Italian food
18:53:06 <Ngevd> You can tell I'm British
18:54:03 <Ngevd> On that note,
18:54:05 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: dinner).
18:54:19 <elliott> ngevd is weird
19:10:28 <elliott> @tell oerjan http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/mm68o/ghc_74_branched_whats_in_for_christmas/c3291tr
19:10:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:54:14 <elliott> OpenGL vendor string: VMware, Inc.
19:54:14 <elliott> OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on llvmpipe
19:54:14 <elliott> OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.11.1
19:54:16 <elliott> hmm, vmware?
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20:33:00 <Ngevd> I had XChat open for about an hour before realising that I hadn't actually joined any channels
20:33:06 <Ngevd> On which note, hello!
20:34:59 <Ngevd> I may design a visual language designed for implementation of esoteric programming languages
20:37:35 <elliott> I have a mental heuristic: Ngevd says "I may X" -> assume Ngevd will never X.
20:37:50 <Ngevd> Pretty much
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20:51:36 <Ngevd> `logs ABCDEF...G
20:51:38 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
20:51:42 <Ngevd> `log ABCDEF...G
20:51:47 <HackEgo> 2011-07-14.txt:19:09:45: <Taneb> It's actually abbreviated ABCDEF...G
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21:27:17 <Ngevd> fungot: ping
21:27:17 <fungot> Ngevd: there was a brief scream from one of them life choices."
21:27:37 <Ngevd> Damn, no pong
21:27:41 <Ngevd> Must be disconnected
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21:33:49 <shachaf> `? shachaf
21:33:52 <HackEgo> shachaf mad
21:33:57 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/shachaf
21:33:59 <HackEgo> No output.
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21:44:47 <Ngevd> Hello, shachaf
21:44:53 <Ngevd> I don't really see you much
21:44:53 <shachaf> Ngevd
21:45:24 <shachaf> I've never seen you, as far as I know.
21:45:35 <Ngevd> I'm sometimes called Taneb?
21:45:46 <shachaf> Well, I've seen your nick in IRC.
21:46:09 <Ngevd> I meant we rarely converse
21:46:20 <shachaf> It's true.
21:46:24 <shachaf> What are you, Jonathan Hoag?
21:46:36 <Ngevd> No, I'm elliott's evil twin
21:47:18 <Ngevd> No, wait, I'm the good one
21:47:20 <zzo38> It is easily visible "Taneb" because it is the username after !
21:47:27 <shachaf> Peoplee always misinterpret that sentence...
21:47:43 <zzo38> Are you sure? Are you good one? Or evil? Or both good, possibly? Or both evil? Or both good and evil? Or mixed up?
21:48:11 <Ngevd> I'm definitely good
21:48:17 <zzo38> OK
21:48:21 <Ngevd> He's much more competent than me, so he must be the evil one
21:48:38 <zzo38> They must be evil due to competent??
21:48:43 <Ngevd> Yes
21:50:04 <Ngevd> Obviously
21:58:50 <zzo38> Do you know the time of day of birth of fictional characters? Do you ever make it up?
22:00:12 <Ngevd> I am going to stick my head out of a window
22:00:15 <Ngevd> Wish me luck!
22:00:21 <zzo38> Why?
22:01:40 -!- elliott has joined.
22:01:41 <Ngevd> Because it is blustery
22:01:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover...
22:02:04 <Phantom_Hoover> DEFCON crashed.
22:02:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Welp.
22:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 7ff3b2cb7000-7ff3b2cd7000 rw-s 268109000 00:05 3367 /dev/dri/card0zsh: abort ./defcon.bin.x86_64
22:02:19 <elliott> Do I... leave it running?
22:02:30 <zzo38> Prepare to go back in time to kill your grandfather!!
22:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt much'll happen.
22:02:32 <elliott> 21:27:17: <fungot> Ngevd: there was a brief scream from one of them life choices."
22:02:33 <elliott> :D
22:02:33 <fungot> elliott: " in there. burn people in there?' said granny. the witch magic and the wizard magic are, i don't have to come.
22:02:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Plot twist: I was actually moving my navy to attack.
22:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I had everything build up between Africa and South America.
22:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd never have made it past without extremely heavy losses.
22:03:49 <elliott> :(
22:04:03 <Ngevd> elliott, is it blustery where you are, at most 2 miles away from me?
22:04:12 <Sgeo> DEFCON?
22:04:18 <elliott> Ngevd: I... guess so? How do you know it's at most 2 miles.
22:04:30 <Ngevd> You live in Hexham
22:04:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: All this game does is make me really want to play Worms.
22:04:33 <Ngevd> Hexham isn't that big
22:04:35 <elliott> Ngevd: Hexham is that small?
22:04:40 <Ngevd> Yep
22:04:43 <elliott> Huh.
22:04:55 <Ngevd> Well, Hexham proper is
22:05:03 <Ngevd> Hexham improper is HUGE
22:05:44 <Ngevd> And extends for a good 30+ miles westwards from here
22:06:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dammit, I just realised I'd have to pirate W:A again to play.
22:07:47 <zzo38> The story of D&D game I play in has seventeen footnotes so far, and twelve chapters, and five sessions, and thirty-one pages in maximum print mode.
22:08:03 <Ngevd> Wait till you can make a novel out of it
22:09:26 <zzo38> Yes, it is meant to be a novel. But not for sale, and in novel mode there are less pages (because character sheets, session titles, and footnotes are omitted)
22:11:01 <zzo38> I am probably only going to keep the TeX source file and the DVI file for anyone to download.
22:12:10 <Ngevd> I've never actually played D&D
22:12:19 <Ngevd> Got the Player's book thing
22:12:31 <Ngevd> Even made a character
22:12:40 <Ngevd> But never found anyone to play with...
22:12:51 <zzo38> What version?
22:13:01 <Ngevd> 4th ed, I'm afraid
22:13:06 <zzo38> I play 3.5 edition.
22:13:23 <zzo38> Read this story if you are interested in it! Now I finished typing all the sessions so far.
22:13:38 <Ngevd> I was going to play a Dwarf Cleric
22:14:06 <zzo38> OK, play a dwarf cleric if you want to.
22:14:55 <Ngevd> Does that have an implied "but you really shouldn't"?
22:15:14 <zzo38> No it doesn't imply that.
22:15:30 <Ngevd> Oh good
22:16:43 <zzo38> The things about these game is you can play many different way, and makes the game interesting because of that. The different character, good at different things, have different preferences and spells and items and personality and so on, etc
22:17:15 <zzo38> Did you read the latest copy of my recording?
22:17:23 <Ngevd> I haven't read any
22:18:32 <zzo38> TeX source file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex Printout file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.dvi Macro file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/dungeonsrecording.tex
22:20:12 <Ngevd> Recommended tool for anything?
22:20:22 <Ngevd> Read: I don't know how to use TeX
22:20:29 <Ngevd> Or what DVI is
22:20:39 <elliott> Ngevd: Evince can open DVI files.
22:21:00 -!- augur has joined.
22:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, DVI is what around three people use for TeX output.
22:22:07 <zzo38> The source file is also readable in any plain text viewer in case you want to
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22:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "Formally, a frame is defined to be a lattice L in which finite meets distribute over arbitrary joins,"
22:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I think this may be the most confusing phrase I have ever read.
22:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> There are five words there which I know but which make no sense by their normal definitions.
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23:34:25 <Vorpal> hi
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23:37:27 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you know how you ruined one of my NetHack games? well, I started another one to make it winnable again, and actually ascended that one :)
23:37:40 <ais523\unfoog> so I can go back to trying to ascend the original one, but am not sure there's time in November while I'm not busy
23:37:42 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I will clearly have to distract you more in the future!
23:38:00 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (Correction: I ruined _two_ of your NetHack games.)
23:38:11 <ais523\unfoog> what was the other one?
23:38:17 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: The HP one and the silly arena one.
23:38:21 <ais523\unfoog> oh right, the HP one
23:38:34 * elliott starts writing his third Perl program.
23:38:46 <elliott> Very worrying trend.
23:39:05 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: What's the favoured mathematical operator to append to CPAN to get a usable tool these days?
23:39:16 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: cpanm -S
23:39:24 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Minus, then?
23:39:28 <ais523\unfoog> yep
23:39:36 <elliott> Thanks.
23:39:53 <ais523\unfoog> you need to use -S rather than running it as root, or the perms end up wrong
23:39:58 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: wow, it's even packaed in my OS, too
23:40:06 <elliott> *packaged
23:40:11 <ais523\unfoog> Kitten?
23:40:17 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: no, the OS I use :)
23:40:21 <elliott> not the one I'd rather use
23:40:27 <ais523\unfoog> that's @ :)
23:40:34 <elliott> I can have two OSes I'd rather use!
23:40:55 <elliott> hmm, having said that, the module I want is /also/ in my package manager
23:41:10 <elliott> does Perl have issues with mixing distro/cpan packages like Haskell does with distro/cabal-install packages?
23:41:49 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, congrats on ascending
23:41:50 <ais523\unfoog> not noticeably; the major issue is that if you install a package both ways, you might not get the right copy
23:43:14 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I hope you're right :)
23:43:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: does CPAN even have versioned dependencies?
23:43:34 <ais523\unfoog> yes
23:43:39 <elliott> hmm
23:43:52 * elliott decides to do things via cpanminus for consistency
23:44:12 <elliott> I, er, don't have a cpanm command-line tool
23:44:28 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, weird
23:44:32 <elliott> oh, it's in usr/bin/vendor_perl/cpanm
23:44:39 <elliott> why is it in /usr/bin/vendor_perl?
23:45:48 * elliott installs GD
23:46:04 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: thanks, that was amazingly painless
23:47:20 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: hmm, you know probably slightly more about perl packages than I do; is there anything you'd recommend to extract a file from a zip file as a bytestring? (without having to unpack the whole thing to the FS)
23:47:26 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: if I can get a filehandle for it, even better
23:47:41 <ais523\unfoog> yes, but I've forgotten its name
23:47:57 * elliott has found Archive::Extract, but it seems to just do extract-to-FS
23:49:13 <ais523\unfoog> actually, zip file might be something I haven't done
23:49:20 <ais523\unfoog> Archive::Zip seems like the ridiculously fully-featured model
23:49:22 <ais523\unfoog> *module
23:49:28 <ais523\unfoog> I wonder if there's an Archive::Zip::Simple?
23:49:43 <elliott> use Acme::Simple;
23:49:59 <elliott> # language is now Lazy K; simplicity guaranteed
23:50:21 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: hmm, Archive::Zip is done by somebody with an avatar I recognise!
23:50:23 <elliott> MUST BE GOOD
23:50:36 <elliott> Acme-BadExample-1.01Perl document, yes. Perl code, no damn way![Download] [Browse]30 Mar 2009
23:50:36 <elliott> Acme-Everything-1.01Effectively loads every class in CPAN[Download] [Browse]10 Dec 2007
23:50:36 <elliott> Acme-Mom-Yours-0.02Your mom is so fat she takes 2 months to compile[Download] [Browse]19 Apr 2009
23:50:52 <elliott> I bet this guy wishes CPAN let you configure the sorting of your package list.
23:50:57 <kallisti> hi.
23:50:59 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:51:04 <ais523\unfoog> it's a bad sign when I can't figure out what method's used to get at a particular file in the zip archive
23:51:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:51:23 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: http://search.cpan.org/~adamk/Archive-Zip-1.30/lib/Archive/Zip.pm#Zip_Archive_Accessors
23:51:25 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: found with TOC
23:51:47 <elliott> "Return the disk that I start on. Not used for writing zips, but might be interesting if you read a zip in. This should be 0, as Archive::Zip does not handle multi-volume archives."
23:51:52 <ais523\unfoog> ah right, that returns archive member objects, then you can call a method on /those/ to get a filehandle
23:51:53 <elliott> hmm, is this an implementation of a common interface?
23:52:04 <ais523\unfoog> it's probably an implementation of a spec
23:52:41 <kallisti> elliott discovers the pain of object-oriented pel.
23:52:45 <elliott> object-oriented pel
23:52:55 <ais523\unfoog> kallisti: it's actually not that painful at all
23:53:02 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
23:53:13 <ais523\unfoog> it's a bit like other OO languages, except that it's made out of language primitives which means that the corner case behaviour is typically more obviosu
23:53:14 <ais523\unfoog> *obvious
23:53:23 -!- kallisti has joined.
23:54:23 <kallisti> ais523\unfoog: it just feels... weird.
23:54:25 <kallisti> in perl
23:54:26 <kallisti> mainly.
23:54:44 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: IO::Uncompress::Unzip may be the right module to use
23:54:51 <elliott> but I just installed Archive::Zip :)
23:55:50 <ais523\unfoog> use IO::Uncompress::Unzip qw/unzip/; my $unzipped_file_contents; unzip "zipfile.zip" => $$unzipped_file_contents;
23:55:52 <ais523\unfoog> wow that's a nice API
23:56:09 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: the zip is large
23:56:12 <elliott> I only want to decompress one file of it
23:56:16 <ais523\unfoog> ah, aha
23:56:39 <elliott> my $zip = Archive::Zip->new();
23:56:39 <elliott> $zip->read($ENV{'HOME'} . '/.minecraft/bin/minecraft.jar') == AZ_OK or die;
23:56:39 <elliott> my $terrain = $zip->memberNamed('terrain.png') or die;
23:56:39 <elliott> my $terrain_fh = $terrain->fh();
23:56:39 <elliott> that was easy!
23:57:14 <ais523\unfoog> IO::Uncompress::Unzip can do that too by adding , Name => "file-in-zip.ext" or whatever as an argument
23:57:20 <ais523\unfoog> so, hmm, pretty similar in both cases
23:57:27 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: to a filehandle?
23:57:33 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I suppose it's no big deal to load this as a string
23:57:39 <elliott> but it feels like a filehandle is FASTER :P
23:57:41 <ais523\unfoog> yep, but you have to pass a filehandle reference as argument
23:57:45 <ais523\unfoog> and I can't remember how to get one of those things
23:58:02 <ais523\unfoog> except with "open my $fh" which I think is special-cased
23:58:30 <ais523\unfoog> anyway, if you find a module that works, go for it
23:59:45 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Copyright (c) 2005-2007 Paul Marquess. All rights reserved.
23:59:49 <elliott> for IO::Uncompress::Unzip
23:59:53 <elliott> which is worrying
23:59:57 <ais523\unfoog> the dates?
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