00:00:27 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:00:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:02:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:04:28 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 00:05:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:05:55 I guess oerjan was rather timely then. <-- namedropping us is bad now? >:P 00:05:55 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 00:05:58 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 00:05:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:08:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:09:46 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:10:27 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:10:51 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:10:57 -!- atehwa has joined. 00:11:26 -!- jix has joined. 00:13:30 -!- yiyus has joined. 00:18:16 I say sentences of that format a lot <-- maybe you could define an alias. 00:18:56 oops, he just left. 00:24:28 Ended lamely <-- that Capital city article seems to show up often. 00:28:24 @tell elliott Phantom_Hoover: Help I wrote two Perl programs and didn't feel disgusted with myself what does this mean? <-- i don't understand the question >:) 00:28:25 Consider it noted. 00:33:01 @tell elliott it means you should embark on a long soul-searching quest to discover who you really are. 00:33:01 Consider it noted. 00:34:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:04:13 -!- Klisz has joined. 01:04:48 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:14:35 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:28:54 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:45:02 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:47:41 hm retrying United States with elliott's section rule changes the path after Syphilis#Tertiary 01:49:04 -!- itidus21 has joined. 01:49:27 Syphilis#Tertiary -> Aortic aneurysm -> Bleeding -> Blood donation -> Shelf life -> Eating -> Activities of daily living 01:53:26 -> Old age -> Geriatrics -> Greek language -> English language -> Slang -> Euphemism -> Friendly fire -> Fratricide -> Siblicide -> Human 01:56:24 -> Anthropology -> Positivism -> Auguste Comte -> Altruism -> Ethical egoism -> Individualist anarchism -> Benjamin Tucker -> Liberty (1881–1908) -> Pierre-Joseph Proudhon 01:58:07 -> Loan -> Bond (finance) -> Perpetuity -> Valuation (finance) -> Lawsuit 01:58:40 fart -> punk rock -> the offspring -> alternative songs -> coldplay -> teenage cancer trust -> wirral -> Wirral Metropolitan College -> Wirral Peninsula -> Hundred (county subdivision) 02:00:14 -> Civil law (common law) -> Equity (law) -> Common law -> Australia, which i'm sure i saw earlier today and i think it ended up eventually in the Petronas Towers loop 02:01:48 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 02:02:49 -> japan -> infant mortality -> child mortality -> Millennium Development Goals -> AIDS -> Needle-exchange programme -> HIV -> Cancer -> List of causes of death by rate -> World Health Organization -> United Nations Development Group -> United Nations Development Programme -> Human Development Report -> (loops back to United Nations Development Programme) 02:03:54 itidus21: sounds like the end there might be another common one 02:04:07 curiously DMM also enters the japan set 02:04:18 david morgan-mar? 02:05:30 David Morgan-Mar -> Canon (company) -> Ōta, Tokyo -> Kamata Station (Tokyo) -> Japan -> 02:06:50 yeah he works at Canon, so it's not that strange 02:08:43 Norway -> Human Development Index -> Human development (humanity) -> Capability approach, this looks familiar. 02:08:52 -!- itidus21 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 02:09:26 -!- itidus21 has joined. 02:12:09 ah, that one ended in the Tests of general/special relativity loop 02:23:47 Which house systems is it possible to make a sundial to project? 02:24:09 heh 02:24:32 that reminds me of the digital sundial (a mathematical construction which iirc requires the axiom of choice) 02:25:25 I have read about digital sundials in Wikipedia that uses optical fiber to cause the light to make up digits 02:26:25 The mathematics for fractal digital sundial is described but I do not see a mention of the axiom of choice 02:26:53 oh it doesn't require it, it seems, and is actually practical? 02:28:06 digital sundial eh? so the idea is a sophisticated mapping of sun direction to light up a display of arabic numerals? 02:28:09 cool idea 02:28:59 yeah 02:42:04 zzo38: you'd want a house system which can be determined from the precise position of the sun in the sky, presumably. and i think there will be at least some positions that happen twice in a year as the sun wanders between the tropics in both directions 02:43:01 but perhaps those two days will also have matching houses 02:43:23 (that is, each day in spring will have a matching day in autumn) 02:44:40 or very close to matching 02:46:15 Does it have anything to do with analemma or Sun declination (in equatorial coordinates)? 02:46:28 i don't know what those are 02:46:58 "In the final issue of Batman R.I.P., the Joker explains to an organization trying to destroy Batman that there is no use trying because Batman is always so far ahead in figuring out every scheme against him. Joker attributes this to _apophenia_, saying that he has literally been driven insane by this alone." 02:47:36 Equatorial coordinates means measure position of planets and sun and so on on the equatorial plane. The other way is to use the ecliptic. 02:48:54 zzo38: well the tropics are the largest magnitude latitudes of the sun in that system, i assume 02:49:23 Yes, that is correct. 02:51:47 According to Wikipedia: "Since the Earth's mean solar day is almost exactly 24 hours, an analemma can be traced by plotting the position of the Sun as viewed from a fixed position on Earth at the same clock time every day for an entire year." Using the horizon view and timed exposure modes in Astrolog, you can plot the analemma on the computer. 02:54:08 (The analemma is plotted using azimuth/altitude coordinates) 02:54:40 so yes, the analemma would be relevant. although you'd really want an analemma based on when you're in the same _house_ position each day 02:54:55 and if those don't intersect, you can make a sundial. 03:00:17 hm... 03:00:36 *when the sun is in the same house position 03:04:04 "If space in the heavens is the basis for house division, the sky is divided into equal arcs of 30° each. Here, too, a difference will be made as to whether these divisions are made based on the ecliptic, or on the celestial equator." 03:04:10 -!- Klisz has joined. 03:04:41 i'd _guess_ that if you use the celestial equator, a house will be a fixed part of the sky, so should work with a sundial. 03:04:50 and easily. 03:11:23 As far as I know house systems always place the cusps on the ecliptic (although the different systems might project the equator or prime vertical or whatever). Regiomontanus houses: "The celestial equator is divided into twelve, and these divisions are projected on to the ecliptic along great circles that take in the north and south points on the horizon." 03:11:35 Campanus houses: "The prime vertical (the great circle taking in the zenith and east point on the horizon) is divided into twelve, and these divisions are projected on to the ecliptic along great circles that take in the north and south points on the horizon." 03:13:26 mhm 03:44:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 03:57:43 -!- madbrain has joined. 03:57:47 hey 03:57:53 ho 03:57:55 -!- madbrain has changed nick to madbrrr. 03:58:04 cold, is it? 03:58:17 in montreal, yeah :D 03:58:35 trying to figure out if chess is turing complete 03:58:49 sounds good 03:59:00 if you allow walls and an infinite board and an infinitely repeating pattern for the infinite tape 03:59:10 infinite chessboard, same distribution of pieces? 03:59:27 no basically your program is the initial setup :D 03:59:35 oh 03:59:45 and the output is? 03:59:49 madbrrr: well then the question is what is a wall... 03:59:50 shortest checkmate? 04:00:06 like a part of the board? 04:00:07 itidus: space that pieces can't go through 04:00:33 exept that horses can still jump over it 04:01:13 quintopia: whether it's the white or the black player that can win 100% of the time perhaps? 04:01:40 Essentially you take one small walled corner somewhere 04:01:46 and setup the white king 04:01:54 1 move away from being checkmated :D 04:02:03 i'm confused 04:02:03 i dont know enough about turing machines to actually add to this 04:02:09 lol 04:02:12 so to stay alive he has to keep the black king in check 04:02:17 oh right 04:02:24 you only need one bit of output 04:02:26 duh 04:02:49 so basically each move, the white player must do one move to keep the black king in check 04:03:05 and then the black king has to move out of check 04:06:04 obviously with setups of rooks you can move the king around 04:06:19 but can you, say, store a bit? 04:06:59 madbrrr: er, you're not referring to castling, because the king can only do that on its first move 04:07:28 and not while in check, iirc 04:07:56 nah I don't think castling could be used to perform computation 04:09:00 indeed 04:09:32 if brainfuck can do computation then chess can 04:10:06 "Some other generalized games, such as chess, checkers (draughts), and Go are EXPTIME-complete because a game between two perfect players can be very long, so they are unlikely to be in PSPACE. But they will become PSPACE-complete if a polynomial bound on the number of moves is enforced. 04:10:12 " 04:10:35 may be relevant 04:10:52 say you have this setup 04:10:52 ############### 04:10:53 #R R #r#### 04:10:53 #RR # K# 04:10:53 ## k ###### 04:10:53 ############ 04:11:00 that's for arbitrary large, but finite board, of course 04:11:02 white to play 04:11:21 if white does anything other than check the black king, he's dead 04:11:41 a wall is essentially a hole in the board, isn't it. 04:11:45 yeah 04:11:48 so part of the board shape 04:12:15 might be possible to do computation without walls but I'm starting with the simpler case 04:12:44 now, to check the black king, white has to move one of his rooks 04:12:45 hmm 04:14:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:14:18 There are four ways for the uppercase player to put the lowercase player in check as far as I can see. 04:14:20 -!- kmc has joined. 04:14:52 zzo: except the black king can escape from the small diagonal hole :D 04:15:21 In tsume shogi, too, you are required to put opponent in check on every turn 04:15:53 madbrrr: Yes, I can see that; eventually black will win. However white can still put black in check 04:16:30 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:16:54 the idea is to come up with a setup where you force the king through a set of corridors 04:17:21 which moves the white's pieces around 04:17:42 and have computation using those pieces' position 04:19:43 it looks to me like that setup is a checkmate by moving an R down... 04:20:07 no see once you get to this: 04:20:19 i mean the one you pasted 04:20:56 ############### 04:20:56 #R R #r#### 04:20:57 #R R # K# 04:20:57 ## k###### 04:20:57 ############ 04:21:04 white to play 04:21:12 next move is obviously 04:21:25 ############### 04:21:25 #R R#r#### 04:21:25 #R R # K# 04:21:25 ## k###### 04:21:25 ############ 04:21:31 madbrrr: er i'm saying that the first one you pasted will never get to that point because it's a one-move checkmate 04:21:44 oh 04:21:51 heh right 04:22:14 so many Rs that he can just block all 3 rows, right 04:22:41 Yes it is a one move checkmate 04:22:54 hmm 04:23:16 It is possible to change it, I suppose? Would it help to add new kind of pieces such as the Chinese cannons? 04:23:32 well 04:23:51 I'm trying to find something where you don't have to forbit perpetual check 04:23:56 *forbid 04:24:31 oh i'm guessing that's not necessary. i mean the EXPTIME thing i pasted must essentially imply that it's possible to do arbitrary _finite_ computation, so it would be strange if an infinite board wasn't TC 04:24:39 like this 04:24:40 ############### 04:24:40 #RR #r#### 04:24:40 ## # K# 04:24:40 ## k ###### 04:24:40 ############ 04:25:03 black king can just force a draw by going back and forth 04:25:03 Chinese cannon = When not capturing, moves the same as a rook, but when it is capturing, there must be exactly one piece (of any color and type) in between the from square and the target (this piece in between is called a "screen" and is unaffected by this move) 04:25:25 zzo: hm 04:26:15 I'm trying to do it with FIDE pieces only :D 04:26:32 but if there's no good way it might require some extra pieces yeah 04:27:20 an idea just occured to me 04:27:21 "That is why all the games were modified by playing them on an n × n board instead; in some cases, such as for Chess, these extensions are somewhat artificial and subjective." 04:28:01 so it is possible that it requires something else. but the walls seem to me like such a thing already. 04:28:07 And then, what are rules for pawns going to be? I suppose it can be based on the relative positions of pawns to walls 04:28:08 a lot of the time these games are about static pieces.. but game of life is a game about dynamic objects on a board 04:28:48 zzo: I was thinking white pawns go up, black pawns go down :o 04:29:04 itidus21: well it's unusual in that you change a lot of cells simultaneously 04:29:25 madbrrr: Yes, but I mean for double step and promotion 04:29:36 oerjan: but suppose that a game like chess had pieces which had rules which didn't allow them to sit still unless they were stuck 04:30:05 zzo: dunno, was thinking of presuming that the game was ongoing so no double step 04:30:19 im going off on a tangent though... big tangent 04:30:21 and promotion, well, they'd have to reach the top of the program for that no? :D 04:30:38 itidus21: mind you there are other kinds of games where one player makes a lot of moves in their turn, like RISK 04:31:21 a lot of strategic conquest games, in fact 04:31:25 itidus21: You could have the game, each piece has to move exactly once on your turn; if they are stuck, they don't move, and if all your pieces are stuck you are stalemated. 04:32:02 Vinci is another that comes to mind 04:32:14 *catches my breath trying not to derail the other topic too far* like a set of rules for each piece which it has to follow.. 04:32:50 that you don't tell a piece where to move each turn, it does it on its own.. and you just have some limited control .. like maybe allowed to specify movements of n pieces per turn 04:33:24 then you might for instance have pieces which explore the edges of a room 04:33:32 uh room? i mean an enclosed space 04:33:53 or pieces which move across a space back and forth 04:34:02 sounds like something that must already have been made. 04:34:14 everything has already been made(tm) 04:34:48 hmm 04:34:51 its probably just not very easy to do on a board 04:34:59 more of a computer-powered task 04:34:59 well, everything that doesn't require a new invention to work 04:35:11 that's sort of tautological 04:35:36 uhm 04:35:53 so in my minds eye i see like a 16bit role playing game village 04:36:07 where each townsfolk is performing some patterned walking 04:37:26 i'd be surprised if there wasn't someone here who had played such a game. but i don't play that kind of games much, and i don't ... oh wait, lemmings is a bit like that 04:37:52 damn it 04:38:04 it's hard to find a good contraption using chess pieces 04:38:36 madbrrr: you want it to be deterministic, too, to encode a TM 04:39:23 oerjan: that means you need a setup where there is only one possible check on each move 04:39:32 and one possible king move in response 04:39:50 madbrrr: well or only one possible which doesn't allow the king to escape 04:39:58 in an unwanted direction 04:40:12 sounds hard to evaluate 04:40:45 well but it's the kind of evaluation you need for solving chess problems, anyway... 04:40:52 You could have game involving the board changing. One possibility is the board changes size after every few turns, or they have night time and day time, another idea I had is a game that adds a dimension every few turns. Or have cards that adjust the rules for the board. 04:41:21 and it might not have to take _long_ to escape. just in case you need a little extra flexibility beyond a single immediate possibility 04:41:59 ## 04:41:59 ## # 04:41:59 ## # P 04:41:59 ## # P 04:41:59 ## # P 04:42:00 #k# P 04:42:00 ## P 04:42:01 ##PP 04:42:12 this one is fairly deterministic 04:42:37 P is for pawn? 04:42:41 but non resettable :( 04:42:42 yeah 04:43:04 yes the resetting might be tricky. in fact you can just about ignore pawns for this reason. 04:43:36 yeah that leaves rooks, bishops, knights and queens 04:43:49 and extra kings 04:44:25 extra kings feels like cheating. 04:44:25 oerjan: :-? lemmings is a lot like that. nice point 04:44:43 queens seem to have too much range 04:45:02 Although an idea I have thought of this year is a game that uses a horoscope as the board, updating in real time (so the time you take to make your move has consequences; obviously a time limit would also be required for each turn); you could have cards, with certain configurations you make allows you to play cards to adjust harmonic factors and house settings and whatever 04:45:02 hard to make setups where they only can give one possible check 04:46:04 A game I have read about is called Quintuple Arcana, I don't know much about it except for: * The board and pieces * It has complete information and non random * The rules are extremely complicated and modes change depending on things in the game * There are even different levels of rules 04:46:06 that leaves mostly rooks, bishops and knights 04:46:19 oerjan: so with the lemmings idea.. you could have a stream of pawns coming out of one tile every few moves, and your job is then to assign it a role such as queen or rook or knight 04:46:43 itidus21: Or bishop, too 04:46:51 and some deterministic behaviour for each one 04:47:05 there could be something in that 04:47:36 wait how does dwarf fortress fit in this :P 04:47:46 i havent played dwarf fortress 04:47:49 :)) 04:47:49 me neither 04:48:04 # 04:48:04 # B ### 04:48:04 # B R# 04:48:04 #BB# k ### 04:48:04 ######### 04:48:05 dwarf fortress fits into everything 04:48:12 but from listening to those who do, it sounds like it has lots of roles 04:48:31 and somewhat self-determining characters 04:48:38 so i can imagine uh 2 aristocrats sitting by a board while a servant shifts the pieces around 04:49:26 and the notations would be something like: g5 to bishop 04:49:44 * Sgeo is now reading Dr. McNinja 04:49:55 I made up a game called "Giveaway Chess Puzzle", where you can make one move each turn. Goal is to lose all of your pieces. You must capture if able, otherwise you can make any move (if more than one capture is possible, you can choose which one). On computer player's turn, they automatically make all possible captures simultaneously. 04:50:02 yeah ok bishops might do it 04:50:04 madbrrr: you are going to somehow need pieces to be able to check in different contexts to reset things 04:50:32 oerjan: the chess -> lemmings conceptual bridge there was quite wonderful 04:50:39 heh 04:51:02 I wonder what's the computational class of lemmings 04:51:06 That can allow two pieces to end up in the same place. If they are the same kind of piece, it becomes a single piece of that kind. If they are different kind, it becomes a piece that cannot go. A computer player's piece might capture more than one thing, duplicating itself. If computer player's pieces cannot capture, you lose. 04:51:38 it's likely that lemmings has a crazy computational class like NP complete 04:51:45 It doesn't have promotion, en passan, double step, check, checkmate, castling, etc 04:52:08 sort of like how in the movie The One, he kills his multiverse selves to become more powerful 04:52:10 madbrrr: NP complete is nowhere near crazy enough there :P 04:52:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSPACE-complete#Discussion 04:53:39 particularly last half 04:54:37 :(( 04:55:19 heavy math topics made all the more inviting by board games 04:55:22 and by that i mean that the first half is more likely to explode your brain, and doesn't really talk about games. 04:55:40 well 04:55:42 hmm 04:56:26 lemmings can present an obstacle that requires either N bashers, or M diggers 04:56:33 for any value of N or M 04:56:36 oerjan: thanks for recognizing the brain exploding potential of these things 04:56:54 itidus21: your :(( gave me a bit of a clue there :P 04:57:09 in fact it can present an obstacle that can be crossed with any combinations of bashers/diggers 04:57:18 im sick of these assholes in my other chatroom .. 04:57:26 i like half of them. and the other half i don't 04:57:37 1/N, 2/M, 3/O, 4/P, 5/Q, 6/R.... 04:58:04 can ignore about 40% of them.. but that remaining 10% causes all the grief 04:58:34 in fact an obstacle can have more or less any number of paths through it 04:59:02 those paths can require any combination of bashers, diggers and builders 05:01:35 -!- madbrrr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:02:52 -!- madbrrr has joined. 05:03:52 I don't think you can setup an infinite tape in lemmings 05:04:00 or maybe even infinite lemmings 05:04:39 i don't like puzzles.. i don't know why.. 05:05:09 the very word puzzle makes me kind of run away from a game 05:05:32 best games are the ones where you have to plan 05:05:37 might be that i'm dumb 05:05:40 example: mario 64 05:06:03 the thing about mario you see... is that mario isn't just a puzzle dressed up with pretty pictures 05:06:22 in mario 64 you run around the level 05:06:29 just for the hell of it 05:06:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_complexity 05:06:30 yeah... 05:06:38 and figure out that it has a bunch of paths, each with deadliness N 05:06:44 then find out a star 05:06:58 surprise, to get that star, you have to go in spots X, Y Z 05:07:10 yeah.... 05:07:16 the puzzle is figuring out the path that has the least overall deadliness 05:07:26 perhaps by that time it did start to become a puzzle 05:07:55 its very difficult for me to put into words 05:07:58 A lot of games are puzzles, but very, very cleverly hidden puzzles 05:08:15 but theres a fine line between game and non-game i think 05:09:00 <3 lemmings 05:09:05 like, a good action game is about figuring out the game world and how to pass through its typical obstacle setup 05:09:14 i wonder which neuroses affect my interest in puzzle games 05:09:36 that's part learning timings etc, but also it's a puzzle 05:09:47 i was never content with just getting through lemmings levels 05:09:50 i had to go back and save my blockers too 05:09:51 ;) 05:09:56 iti: it's the presentation... some puzzle games can have a very boring presentation 05:10:14 ex: sokoban 05:10:20 i couldn't care less.. unless it has boring puzzles :P 05:10:20 i love nothing more than to philosophize about these things 05:10:25 sokoban is boring 05:10:29 dude pushing boxes? fuck you 05:10:31 it's fine as a component of other puzzle games 05:10:36 or a theme level 05:10:41 but i don't want to play 100 sokoban levels in a row 05:10:54 the best puzzles have mechanical ingenuity and also variety 05:10:57 puzzles become more interesting when they involve punching a dude in the face 05:10:59 theres this element of representation which the presentation adds 05:11:18 i mean " iti: it's the presentation... some puzzle games can have a very boring presentation" 05:11:36 representation as in, representing things from the real world, or from other works of fiction 05:11:56 and the presentation can bring that representation 05:12:28 to me, that is one of the advantages of 3d games which can more closely represent the world around us 05:12:45 other thing that I don't like: games where you can never kill the badguys 05:12:58 only stun them for a couple seconds 05:13:11 so perhaps for people who like puzzle games, they are more capable of abstractly relating the business in a puzzle back to the real world 05:13:21 http://67.168.184.168:81/leet1.gif - leet7.gif :> 05:13:22 whereas someone like me requires that shallow relation 05:13:24 tricksy lemmingses 05:13:50 no idea itidus 05:13:56 humm 05:13:57 i don't care if it is anything like the real world :P 05:14:17 one of my three favorite puzzle games has a marble that you move around with the mouse and basically play a game of memory with 05:14:22 (through numerous obstacles) 05:14:36 it's not very world-like :) 05:14:43 ok so the problem with sokoban is that you can't learn much from it perhaps? 05:14:54 for me, the problem with sokoban is that it's boring 05:15:03 its just fundamentally boring basically? :D 05:15:04 what i want from a puzzle game is FIGURING OUT NEW THINGS 05:15:15 there's only so many ways you can figure out how to push a box in four directions 05:15:20 everything after that is just variations on a theme 05:15:34 i don't mind variations on a theme either, but it's rather monotonous in a game as simple as sokoban 05:15:46 my favorite games have lots of variety, lots of levels, and they never bore me :) 05:16:30 most of the time i like them with complex interactions, like chip's challenge or something 05:16:34 where there are lots of different pieces 05:16:34 hmm yeah.. theres rarely real world sokoban puzzles... but it would make an interesting take for a "saw" movie 05:16:38 but at the same time 05:16:45 another of my favorites is crystalex 05:16:52 and that's a pretty simple game, it just had great level design 05:16:59 you have a little ball that bounces up and down 05:17:03 you move it left and right 05:17:07 Game such as Hero Mesh can have a lot of level and lot of pieces. Currently you have to pay, but I have been working on a similar kind of thing but with Free software (and with some other things fixed too; so files cannot be directly compatible) 05:17:08 like.. someone trapped in a real world sokoban puzzle..with an ipad in his hand showing him the current state of things 05:17:14 lol 05:17:26 never heard of hero mesh 05:17:36 nope.. 05:17:53 you mean mesh:hero ? 05:17:59 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 05:18:01 I have written a PHP version once which is more than half complete but is slow and crashes a lot. 05:18:05 looks like my kind of game 05:18:08 Later I will write a better program in C. 05:18:09 kind of dated graphics though 05:18:15 not that that matters much to me 05:18:18 if the puzzles are good ;) 05:18:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:18:38 Yes the puzzles are good. 05:18:44 actually it looks quite a bit like a ripoff of chip's challenge haha 05:18:48 collect the chips/collect the hearts 05:18:49 hmmm 05:18:49 ;p 05:18:53 i just think it would be very funny if there was some movie about a sokoban killer who traps his victims in sokoban mazes 05:19:00 You can make up your own kind of pieces too. 05:19:04 http://www.puzzlebeast.com/ has some basic multi element puzzles that are taken to the extreme using genetic algorithms to make difficult levels 05:19:09 for the hardest ones you have to look extremely far ahead 05:19:12 haha 05:19:26 genetic algorithms based on what fitness function? how many players solve them? 05:19:26 :P 05:19:39 based on how difficult it looks to solve 05:19:46 hmm 05:19:47 Ithink it looks at how long the solution is, as well as how many branches there are 05:19:50 it xplains it on the site 05:19:57 i wonder if they already made a sokoban the movie trailer 05:19:57 http://www.puzzlebeast.com/about/index.html 05:20:02 interesting 05:20:18 i remember some dude who tried to make a genetic shmup 05:20:24 the fitness function was how long someone played it for 05:20:24 haha 05:20:30 I will probably have even more limited graphics in my version, such as no animation and only one size of icons. As well as removing some other commands and adding a few new ones. 05:20:37 btw, mesh:hero reminds me (just looking at it not playing it) of drod and wonderquest 05:20:39 have you played those? 05:21:35 Depending on the level, you might not necessarily have to collect all the hearts. There can be different kind of rules you can program in, involving different kind of things. 05:22:53 nope and nope 05:22:59 i'm sure there's lots i haven't played 05:23:04 i have a particular hatred of boulderdash though 05:23:10 it's not boulderdash's fault 05:23:13 its all the clones 05:23:13 :P 05:23:35 http://www.puzzlebeast.com/slidingblock/sliding_irritating.html <- irritating indeed 05:23:39 that wasn't a fun puzzle, just a long one 05:23:39 :( 05:23:42 * myndzi\ tries the next one 05:23:42 I intend to remove the GotoLevel command, since WinLevel and LoseLevel can imply those. As well as making object pointers not be machine pointers (preventing crashing and randomness), having restrictions on IgnoreKey (preventing breaking replayability), and so on. 05:23:52 I have not played drod and wonderquest 05:24:18 is it possible to shrink the resolution of MESH:Hero? It's taking up more than my current screen 05:24:24 also the java implementation leaves a lot to be desired 05:24:25 Patashu: Yes. 05:24:40 View -> Image size A 05:24:48 oh wait 05:24:48 drod 05:24:51 deadly rooms of death 05:24:56 i didn't recognize it lowercase 05:25:03 i'm ambivalent towards that one 05:25:13