←2011-12-04 2011-12-05 2011-12-06→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:00:43 <zzo38> Yes, you are correct
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00:01:25 <oerjan> lambdabot seems really unstable today
00:01:54 <fizzie> It's practicing *really* lazy evaluation w.r.t. responding to pings.
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00:02:32 <oerjan> lethargic evaluation
00:05:32 <elliott> oerjan: i just wrote a patch to make it more stable
00:06:17 <oerjan> good, good
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00:17:47 <shachaf> elliott: @admin - me all day. I'm sure it'll be satisfying.
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00:43:51 <kallisti> Madoka-Kaname: hi
00:44:03 <Madoka-Kaname> Who's you??
00:44:18 <coppro> /win 4
00:44:29 <kallisti> coppro: oops
00:45:11 <elliott> coppro: your parole officer was here earlier
00:45:37 <coppro> elliott: I noticed
00:45:51 <kallisti> wha
00:50:26 <elliott> <smallfoot-> git is dumb, why it has to mail stuff, instead of just connect to the site and put your stuffs there lol
00:50:26 <elliott> <smallfoot-> now you have to mail manually or configure smtp and shit
00:51:34 * kallisti scratches head furiously.
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01:00:37 <shachaf> "sceptical"
01:00:49 <shachaf> It used to be that that spelling didn't look odd to me.
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01:02:30 <Gregor> elliott: So anyway, I think MID is a better choice than MOD.
01:02:32 <elliott> shachaf: I always used to say skeptical but then I became TRUE BRITISH
01:02:36 <Gregor> Or maybe ... both?
01:02:37 <elliott> Gregor: Hokay :P
01:02:49 <elliott> Gregor: Make the MID one just render to MOD >:)
01:02:53 <elliott> And then pass through
01:03:19 <shachaf> elliot: You're hardly true British.
01:03:36 <elliott> I'm truest British.
01:03:36 <shachaf> You probably don't even drink tea.
01:03:39 <elliott> Also I noticed that.
01:03:41 <elliott> Yes I do.
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01:07:38 * shachaf tries to think of other British stereotypes.
01:07:44 <shachaf> Anyway I'm sure they don't apply to you.
01:12:39 <kallisti> shachaf: heavy tea-drinking is one of those British stereotypes that is apparently true or something?
01:14:22 <Gregor> shachaf: I'll bet his teeth are all white and straight.
01:14:45 <shachaf> elliott: Yes! Your teeth must be perfect.
01:14:55 <elliott> shachaf: What "teeth"?
01:15:44 <shachaf> You know, the things that make gears work?
01:15:59 <elliott> I'm not clockwork.
01:16:33 <elliott> Someone write mollis for me for Christmas, please.
01:16:37 <kallisti> elliott crushes his food with a mortar and Union Jack before he shoves it in his mouthhole.
01:16:49 <elliott> THAT'S DISRESPECTFUL
01:17:13 <kallisti> *Union Jack on a flagpole not the flag itself ha ha ha
01:17:17 <elliott> shachaf: You do it.
01:17:46 <shachaf> elliott: Do what?
01:17:52 <elliott> Write mollis for me.
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01:18:45 <shachaf> What's a mollis?
01:19:11 <elliott> shachaf: An ostensible port of durus to Haskell.
01:19:24 <kallisti> wow Skype literally cannot go a few hours without freezing up inexplicably.
01:19:25 <shachaf> What's a durus?
01:19:57 <elliott> durus is this awesome client-server-or-embedded file-backed persistent STM implementation; the only flaw is that it's written in Python for some incomprehensible reason.
01:24:39 <kallisti> elliott: will you please kill me?
01:24:51 <elliott> Yes.
01:25:26 <kallisti> okay. if you devise a sufficient means I'll gladly fly to Hexam to complete arrangements.
01:30:04 <kallisti> elliott: why isn't the flag of Wales featured on Union Jack
01:30:15 <kallisti> wouldn't your nation's flag be so much cooler with A DRAGON On it?
01:30:20 <elliott> we hate wales
01:30:54 <elliott> "As Wales was not a Kingdom but a Principality it could not be included on the flag."
01:31:16 <elliott> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1570998/Japan-offers-to-solve-Union-Jack-problem.html
01:31:17 <elliott> thank you japan
01:31:58 <elliott> shachaf: Are you done yet?
01:32:17 <shachaf> elliott: With your molidur thing?
01:32:27 <elliott> Yes. Mollis./
01:32:37 <kallisti> In the debate, Albert Owen MP said that "we in Wales do not feel part of the union flag because the dragon or the cross of St David is not on it."[21] Conservative MP Stewart Jackson described the comments as "eccentric".
01:32:41 <kallisti> SICK BURN
01:32:46 <shachaf> Yes, I finished but then it was slow because Haskell makes everything slow.
01:33:20 <kallisti> shachaf: you should have written it in Perl.
01:33:58 <elliott> shachaf: That's okay, I'm slow.
01:34:29 <kallisti> elliott: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00652/news-graphics-2007-_652632a.gif come on
01:34:31 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I already deleted it.
01:34:35 <kallisti> you know you want that dragon
01:34:36 <elliott> shachaf: Just write it again.
01:34:37 <shachaf> I'm not doing all that work over again.
01:39:52 <elliott> I wonder if you can get the internal GHC bytecode as output from GHC.
01:39:59 <elliott> I wonder if that's what -fbyte-code does.
01:42:26 <shachaf> No, that generates the external GHC bytecode.
01:42:53 <elliott> Wow, -fbyte-code actually produces executables.
01:43:03 <shachaf> There's also -ddump-bcos.
01:43:44 <elliott> Now I just need to figure out how to make it compile an expression to a bytecode object and print its type.
01:43:46 <elliott> -XNoNewQualifiedOperators -XExplicitForALl -XNoExplicitForAll
01:43:48 <elliott> Good documentation.
01:44:33 <shachaf> No, no, that's no the documentation. This is the documentation:
01:44:37 <shachaf> -XNewQualifiedOperators
01:44:37 <shachaf> Enable new qualified operator syntax
01:44:57 <elliott> It's in the man page.
01:45:26 <kallisti> Read my lips: no new qualified operators
01:45:26 <shachaf> -XNoFoo ~ No -XFoo
01:46:07 <elliott> shachaf: "-XExplicitForALl -XNoExplicitForAll"
01:46:10 <elliott> Sheesh.
01:46:12 <elliott> It's the L part.
01:46:31 <shachaf> elliott: Oh.
01:46:40 * shachaf is capitalization-blind, you insensitive clod!
01:46:46 <elliott> Hmm, I wish acid-state wasn't so annoying to use.
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01:56:40 <kallisti> oh, hmmm, maybe I /won't/ fail this class.
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02:01:05 <kallisti> > pi + sqrt(-1) :: Complex Double
02:01:18 <kallisti> @tell lambdabot come back plz
02:12:26 <shachaf> kallisti: "i" isn't even sqrt (-1). :-(
02:13:04 * kallisti gives shachaf a gold star.
02:13:07 <kallisti> GOOD JOB!
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02:13:15 <shachaf> What?
02:13:19 <kallisti> you're correct.
02:13:21 <kallisti> you win the prize.
02:13:23 <kallisti> which is a gold star.
02:13:33 <kallisti> you should feel proud.
02:13:36 * shachaf doesn't get it.
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03:35:28 <kallisti> > map (\n -> foldr (+) 0 [1..10^n]) [1..]
03:35:32 <kallisti> ...
03:35:48 <kallisti> hi, my name is kallisti, and I'm a lambdabot addict.
03:37:36 <elliott> hi my name is elliott and im a robot
03:38:28 <kallisti> Prelude> map (\n -> foldr (+) 0 [1..10^n]) [1..]
03:38:29 <kallisti> [55,5050,500500,50005000,5000050000,500000500000,^C
03:38:44 <kallisti> there we go, much better.
03:39:49 <kallisti> > x ^^ y
03:39:53 <kallisti> hsertiuhssiudfhisudhfse
03:41:13 <kallisti> elliott: also, as far as I can tell (^^) actually is repeated multiplication, but it also applies recip for negative exponents.
03:41:21 <elliott> @src (^^)
03:41:25 <elliott> let's just wait for lambdabot
03:41:27 <kallisti> lol
03:41:30 <kallisti> well
03:41:33 <kallisti> x ^^ 2
03:41:33 <kallisti> yields
03:41:35 <kallisti> x * x
03:41:40 <kallisti> x ^^ (-2)
03:41:40 <elliott> uh thats irrelevant
03:41:42 <kallisti> yields
03:41:45 <elliott> it could just be the way Expr implements it
03:41:45 <kallisti> recip (x*x)
03:41:46 <elliott> but ok
03:41:52 <elliott> i guess that would work too
03:42:39 <kallisti> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/latest/doc/html/src/GHC-Real.html#%5E%5E
03:42:46 <kallisti> yeah it uses (^) in the definition
03:43:33 <Sgeo> Note to self: Learn how to unmtl stuff manually
03:43:47 <Sgeo> Relying on lambdabot, as people in #haskell seem to suggest, is not a good idea
03:44:03 <elliott> yes it is
03:44:05 <kallisti> I like GHC's comments.
03:44:06 <elliott> you can install lambdabot locally
03:44:08 <kallisti> very enlightening.
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03:45:39 <kallisti> it would be nice if (^) and (^^) could somehow be the same thing? I think that would require dependent typing or some form of subclassing.
03:46:35 <kallisti> or... a (^) method in Num but that sounds bad.
03:47:39 <kallisti> numbers are tricky.
03:48:14 <kallisti> elliott: maybe the person who hosts lambdabot is playing some kind of cruel prank.
03:48:42 <elliott> it's cale
03:48:47 <elliott> and it just has issues with disconnections
03:48:50 <elliott> which i sent a patch to fix
03:48:56 <elliott> so it should get in the next time cale is present
03:49:15 <elliott> http://hpaste.org/54864 <-- my hideous patch
03:50:04 <kallisti> I may add a plugin to my bot that runs lambdabot locally and then acts as a proxy between my bot and lambdabot so that I can have all of lambdabots commands.
03:50:09 * kallisti elegant.
03:50:33 <elliott> lambdabot has a command-line interface + an api
03:50:38 <kallisti> I already have @type and > but @type is kind of hacky
03:50:41 <kallisti> elliott: oh. cool.
03:50:44 <elliott> but
03:50:45 <elliott> don't
03:50:48 <elliott> you really don't want to compile lambdabot
03:50:57 <kallisti> why not?
03:51:03 <elliott> it's easy if you remove all the dependencies and thus make it almost functionality-free
03:51:06 <elliott> but
03:51:14 <kallisti> what if I'm just awesome?
03:51:14 <elliott> (a) the codebase is really REALLY ancient and crufty
03:51:18 <kallisti> oh.
03:51:19 <elliott> (b) it hasn't been updated in years
03:51:28 <elliott> (c) the dependencies, like, don't work, there's internal conflicts at least on this system
03:51:34 <elliott> (d)
03:51:34 <elliott> (e)
03:51:35 <elliott> (f)
03:51:36 <elliott> ...
03:51:38 <kallisti> the obvious solution: reimplement lambdabot's plugins in perl.
03:52:10 <kallisti> clearly @pl is just a series of regex substitions.
03:52:28 <Sgeo> Does Racket have these sorts of issues with dependencies? Reason I mention Racket is I've heard good things about the module system
03:53:09 <Gregor> "On 15 August 2008 he was awarded a knighthood. He is the first penguin to receive such an honour in the Norwegian army."
03:53:15 <kallisti> also I can one-up lambdabot by having @undefine actually remove definitions.
03:54:31 <elliott> Sgeo: the
03:54:32 <elliott> "issue"
03:54:36 <elliott> is that the dependencies are specified wrongly
03:54:43 <elliott> because they don't specify lower bounds
03:54:46 <elliott> and the package was incompatibly updated
03:54:50 <kallisti> Gregor: glad to see the Norse are beginning to show penguin tolerance. 2008 marks the dawn of a new era, where Norwegians recognize that they're all penguin-like creatures inside.
03:54:55 <elliott> so the "issue" is that lambdabot's code sucks
03:56:58 <kallisti> maybe, as I establish clients from freelancing, I should start writing the most obtuse code possibly.
03:57:06 <kallisti> so that they must continue hiring me to maintain it.
03:57:36 <Nisstyre> kallisti: http://thc.org/root/phun/unmaintain.html
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04:00:12 <kallisti> y a copy of a baby naming book and you'll never be at a loss for variable names. Fred is a wonderful name, and easy to type. If you're looking for easy-to-type variable names, try adsf or aoeu if you type with a DSK keyboard.
04:00:16 <kallisti> lol
04:00:20 <kallisti> s/^/buy/
04:00:36 <elliott> buyy
04:00:56 <kallisti> elliott: shush
04:01:07 <kallisti> Nisstyre: what's funny is that I've actually seen code that had some of these features.
04:01:10 <kallisti> perhaps not intentionally though
04:01:11 <Nisstyre> yes
04:01:15 <Nisstyre> me too :(
04:14:39 <kallisti> Overload the '!' operator for a class, but have the overload have nothing to do with inverting or negating. Make it return an integer. Then, in order to get a logical value for it, you must use '! !'. However, this inverts the logic, so [drum roll] you must use '! ! !'. Don't confuse the ! operator, which returns a boolean 0 or 1, with the ~ bitwise logical negation operator.
04:14:44 <kallisti> so good
04:17:26 <Sgeo> " For pseudo-Esperanto pluraloj, add oj. You will be doing your part toward world peace."
04:19:17 <Sgeo> Not that that's the most obfuscating thing there, I just like Esperanto >.>
04:22:15 * kallisti sighs.
04:24:37 <pikhq_> Doesn't even come close to most obfuscating thing.
04:25:01 <pikhq_> I suggest Japanising and romanising your names.
04:25:21 <pikhq_> Sinicising would be worse, but a bit more difficult to pull.
04:25:55 <pikhq_> int main(int arugusii, char** arugubui) { ... }
04:26:55 <pikhq_> for(int ai=0; ...;...;)
04:27:16 <pikhq_> Oooh. purintsueffu.
04:28:08 <pikhq_> Nah, take more suggestion from that list. hůrinntue'hu
04:36:08 <Sgeo> UPDATE
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04:38:18 <Sgeo> elliott, kallisti
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04:54:51 <augur> http://i.imgur.com/c2liK.jpg
04:54:55 <augur> my eyes broken x.x
04:56:24 <quintopia> weird
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05:10:41 <kallisti> Sgeo
05:11:43 <quintopia> hi kallisti
05:12:26 <kallisti> quintopia: hey.
05:12:28 <kallisti> how's it going?
05:12:30 <kallisti> what's the world?
05:12:35 <kallisti> is lfie?
05:12:48 <quintopia> what is life?
05:12:55 <quintopia> what is...this?
05:13:03 <quintopia> what is it?
05:15:49 <kallisti> what is blsshah?
05:19:47 <quintopia> lets get together and discuss it over beers
05:19:59 <quintopia> youre in like cumming or something right?
05:31:33 <kallisti> ..no
05:31:34 <kallisti> fuck you
05:31:39 <kallisti> I'm in jasper
05:31:40 <kallisti> asshole
05:33:03 <quintopia> i wasnt off by much >.>
05:33:37 <quintopia> one could go from cumming to jasper in under an hour yes?
05:34:18 <kallisti> probably
05:34:54 <kallisti> one can go a lot of places in an hour with a hellicopter, what's your point?
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05:35:51 <quintopia> my point is i didnt remember where you are, just that it was generally north of atlanta
05:36:05 <kallisti> I wish these cans of Busch Light
05:36:08 <kallisti> weren't in a Yuengling case
05:36:23 <kallisti> because it increased my expectations for how it would taste.
05:36:27 <quintopia> and i dont understand why confusing jasper and cumming provoked that repsonse
05:36:37 <quintopia> and it shouldn because huengling sucks too
05:36:43 <kallisti> what
05:36:45 <kallisti> you're mad.
05:36:50 <kallisti> okay we can never hang out ever.
05:37:09 <quintopia> FINE
05:37:09 <kallisti> yuengling light maybe.
05:37:11 <kallisti> but yuengling is like
05:37:28 <quintopia> nah
05:37:34 <quintopia> fuck patriotism
05:37:43 <kallisti> yeah fuck it.
05:37:49 <elliott> points: US sucks, Georgia sucks, beer sucks, particles suck, existence sucks, logical consistency sucks
05:37:56 <quintopia> of the commercial brewers, sam adams is far more patriotic
05:37:58 * elliott vanishes
05:38:02 <kallisti> quintopia: what
05:38:03 <kallisti> no
05:38:15 <kallisti> just because it has a patriotic name does not make it patriotic
05:38:18 <kallisti> yuengling is the FIRST
05:38:19 <quintopia> yes it does
05:38:21 <kallisti> the first american beer.
05:38:31 <kallisti> or well
05:38:32 <kallisti> probably not
05:38:34 <kallisti> but whatever.
05:38:46 <elliott> excuse me
05:38:47 <elliott> i made some
05:38:48 <elliott> very good point
05:38:49 <elliott> s
05:38:50 <kallisti> elliott: logical consistency is the best.
05:38:50 <quintopia> elliott sucks!
05:38:56 <elliott> yes
05:39:01 <kallisti> elliott: no
05:39:02 <elliott> but at least i am contradictory about it
05:39:10 <kallisti> elliott: ofuck logical consistency
05:39:15 <kallisti> I'm so confused
05:39:15 <elliott> fuck you
05:39:16 <kallisti> about where I stand
05:39:19 <kallisti> on logical consistency
05:39:49 <quintopia> its such a good thing to have, we can honestly say no one should have it
05:40:08 <elliott> towels are so good
05:40:12 <elliott> have you ever a towel
05:40:14 <elliott> a really nice towel
05:40:15 <pikhq_> Why drink beer that's not-good anyways?
05:40:22 <elliott> why drink
05:40:23 <elliott> why exist
05:40:23 <kallisti> pikhq_: cheap. under 21.
05:40:27 <elliott> why ovulate
05:40:31 <elliott> why be
05:40:32 <quintopia> why elliott
05:40:33 <kallisti> pikhq_: also elliott makes very good points
05:40:35 <elliott> all these questions and more
05:40:37 <elliott> answered yesterday
05:40:40 <quintopia> why art thou romeo
05:40:50 <elliott> im not romeo
05:41:00 <kallisti> pikhq_: please agree with me that yuengling is not disgusting and is actually pretty good.
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05:41:02 <pikhq_> For the low low price of $25,000,000! (per question. no refunds. offer not valid in the state of California)
05:41:04 <quintopia> all roads lead to romeo
05:41:10 <pikhq_> kallisti: I haven't had it yet, so I can't comment.
05:41:15 -!- elliott has set topic: how to be a toucan | The IOCCC is back on! http://www.ioccc.org | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:41:19 <elliott> does anyone know how to be a toucan
05:41:23 <elliott> help?
05:41:26 <elliott> aid me in becoming toucan
05:41:26 <kallisti> elliott: I have studied.
05:41:31 * elliott googled for: toucan facts
05:41:34 <pikhq_> kallisti: That said, it certainly doesn't fit in the category of "all-American pisswater". :P
05:41:36 * elliott googled for: toucan the night away
05:41:41 * elliott googled for: are toucans all-american pisswater
05:41:43 <kallisti> pikhq_: even better.
05:41:45 <kallisti> pikhq_: and yes it does
05:41:47 * elliott googled for: are toucans people
05:41:52 <kallisti> pikhq_: it's definitely an American beer
05:42:04 <quintopia> and it is definnitely pisswater
05:42:06 <pikhq_> kallisti: The noun "pisswater" is key there.
05:42:14 <kallisti> pikhq_: oh you mean light beer. well, no. it's not that.
05:42:33 * elliott piss water
05:42:44 <kallisti> well there is yuengling light. but don't ever drink that.
05:43:00 * elliott piss yuengling light
05:43:01 <kallisti> (though it is marginally better than most light beers)
05:43:07 <pikhq_> elliott: Congrats, you can legally sell that as Bud Light.
05:43:22 * elliott googled for: bud light "infinity and beyond" quotes
05:43:30 * kallisti should make a modded starcraft map where you can upgrade zerglings to yuenglings.
05:44:37 <zzo38> I have a VHS/DVD combination recorder. It can copy VHS to DVD if it is not Macrovision, it can also copy unfinalized DVD to VHS. Do you know if there are any ways to bypass the Macrovision and other things?
05:44:39 * elliott googled for: do elephants celebrate christmas
05:45:01 * kallisti googled for: toucan meaning of life
05:45:04 * kallisti googled for: toucan secrets
05:45:10 * kallisti googled for: toucan mathematics
05:45:17 * kallisti googled for: toucan string theory
05:45:23 * elliott googled for: is the universe toucans
05:45:37 * elliott googled for: validate me
05:45:37 * kallisti googled for: why do toucans prove ftl
05:46:05 * elliott googled for: silent night true meaning
05:46:29 * elliott googled for: what happens if you shred people
05:47:07 * kallisti googled for: are toucans monoids in the category of endofunctors
05:47:38 * elliott googled for: toucan
05:48:13 * kallisti googled for: how to win debate with toucan
05:48:14 * elliott googled for: toucan cheese
05:48:19 * elliott googled for: toucan byproducts
05:48:22 * kallisti googled for: human cheese
05:48:31 * kallisti googled for: does breast milk coagulate
05:48:46 * kallisti googled for: do toucans eat their toucan cheese?
05:48:51 <quintopia> you can end your search elliott, knowing that it is possible
05:48:56 <pikhq_> zzo38: There's several devices that strip the Macrovision off an analog signal.
05:49:11 <quintopia> if the macaw saw what the leopard spotted, then the toucan can and you can too.
05:49:21 <pikhq_> You probably couldn't do that to the single device there without a lot of work, though.
05:49:51 <quintopia> is macrovision that noise-adding thing?
05:50:24 <pikhq_> quintopia: No, it's the "add shit to the VBI so that automatic gain control breaks" thing.
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05:52:14 <kallisti> lambdabot: hi
05:52:36 <kallisti> @pl (\f g x y -> f x (g y))
05:52:36 <lambdabot> flip . ((.) .)
05:52:47 <kallisti> @pl (\x y -> f x (g y))
05:52:48 <lambdabot> (. g) . f
05:52:53 <kallisti> ..
05:53:07 <kallisti> @pl (\y x -> f x (g y))
05:53:07 <lambdabot> flip f . g
05:53:33 <elliott> I wonder if it has my ROBUSTNESS patch, god I hope not.
05:53:59 * kallisti googled for: toucan fixed-point combinator
05:54:18 * kallisti googled for: robust toucan zygotomorphism
05:54:25 <quintopia> apparently some dvd players have loophole menus where you can turn off macrovision
05:54:33 <quintopia> probably not that converter tho
05:54:43 <elliott> Oh no, he's applying it.
05:54:47 <elliott> RIP lambdabot 2011-in a few minutes
05:54:51 <elliott> *not 2011
05:55:15 <kallisti> rip elliott
05:55:34 <kallisti> cale will assimilate you into his leet prelude
05:55:36 <kallisti> for failure
05:56:04 <kallisti> elliott: oh dude if I rewrite lambdabot in perl I can make CAKESKELL
05:57:15 <kallisti> Cake.Data.List, yessss
05:57:59 <kallisti> length = genericLength; length' = Data.List.length
05:58:10 <elliott> no thanks
05:58:16 <elliott> length xs :: Double
05:58:33 <kallisti> ...so?
05:58:50 <elliott> length xs :: Complex Rational
05:58:55 <kallisti> fromIntegral . length $ xs :: Double
05:58:58 <elliott> these are not things likely to not be mistakes.
05:59:05 <elliott> kallisti: yes, with an explicit conversion.
05:59:14 <kallisti> integers /are/ a subset of reals and complexes
05:59:16 <elliott> haskell "implicit conversions go away"
05:59:21 <elliott> kallisti: yes, but Double isn't Real
05:59:36 <elliott> and if you're working with integral data, using Real is the Wrong Thing to do
05:59:38 <kallisti> integers /are/ a subset of floating point numbers, and complexes
05:59:46 <elliott> not true
05:59:50 * elliott would accept (Integral b) => [a] -> b
06:00:01 <kallisti> :t genericLength
06:00:03 <lambdabot> forall b i. (Num i) => [b] -> i
06:00:16 <kallisti> elliott: that's reasonable
06:01:38 <kallisti> I just haven't really encountered a situation where I might have accidentally used a Double when I did not mean to.
06:02:37 <kallisti> perhaps if you forgot that (/) doesn't perform integer division.
06:03:01 <kallisti> there's a somewhat likely scenario
06:06:32 <kallisti> but intuitively, from the perspective of basic algebra, integer division isn't even a thing and typically you can treat both fractional and integral numbers as being generic "numbers." it would make sense if Haskell followed this looseness, and I think the only people who might get thrown off are "experienced" programmers expecting arithmetic operators to behave as they do in other languages.
06:07:31 <kallisti> but consider: sum ls / length ls
06:07:54 <kallisti> a fledgling Haskell programmer might try to compile this and be surprised to find that they get an obtuse typeclass error.
06:08:56 <elliott> Gregor: Ping
06:09:06 <elliott> kallisti: A fledgling Haskell programmer will make many mistakes if they just write random things and expect it to wrok
06:09:07 <elliott> work
06:10:57 <kallisti> that's not really a defense though. You're simply saying they will make mistakes. Some of these mistakes could still easily be blunders of language design. Most non-Haskell programmers would not expect an error from that, and neither would someone familiar with algebra, statistics, etc
06:11:45 <kallisti> > genericLength [a,b,c,d,e]
06:11:48 <lambdabot> 5
06:11:57 <kallisti> > genericLength [a,b,c,d,e] :: Expr
06:11:58 <lambdabot> 1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + 0))))
06:12:00 <elliott> kallisti: haskell is not algebra/statistics/etc.
06:12:11 <kallisti> elliott: sure.
06:12:14 <elliott> if haskell tried to interpret all the ambiguous mathematical notation out there, it'd be a sloppy, useless piece of crap
06:12:30 <elliott> explicit conversions is one of haskell's defining features
06:12:32 <kallisti> right, I simply think basic numbers are something it could concede on.
06:12:52 <pikhq_> And computers require different treatment of "numbers" than everyone is really used to.
06:13:00 <elliott> kallisti: how often do you miss a fromIntegral
06:13:05 <elliott> if it's often you're doing something wrong
06:13:12 <kallisti> elliott: not often.
06:13:14 <kallisti> it happens though.
06:13:30 <elliott> type errors happen, that's why we have a compiler that catches them before the program runs
06:13:54 <kallisti> I agree certainly.
06:13:54 <pikhq_> I agree with elliott that length :: (Integral b) => [a] -> b -- is preferable.
06:14:02 <kallisti> it's safer, yes.
06:14:11 <kallisti> and much better than Int
06:14:20 <kallisti> and still allows conversion to Num
06:14:26 <elliott> i would just go for Integer to be quite honest if not for one thing
06:14:37 <elliott> namely, with Integral you can define a generic peano naturals type
06:14:40 <elliott> and use it to do lazy length comparison
06:14:50 <elliott> so that length [0..] > (5 :: Nat) is true
06:14:53 <elliott> very useful
06:15:01 <elliott> and avoids wasting work by traversing the whole list even for normal cases
06:15:16 <pikhq_> Also, using floats where you mean integers *will screw up*.
06:15:45 <kallisti> how so?
06:15:47 <pikhq_> I'm a bit iffy about them even being Nums, TBH.\
06:16:24 <kallisti> isn't genericLength more like using an integer as a float? (in the more specific case we're discussing)
06:16:27 <elliott> you can give Float a reasonable Ord by breaking the IEEE spec for NaNs so that's ok
06:16:32 <elliott> Num is
06:16:34 <elliott> ehhhhhhhhhh
06:16:36 <elliott> well Num just has to go
06:16:40 <elliott> so it's not even worth thinking about
06:16:43 <elliott> but I wouldn't object to Nums being Fields
06:16:45 <elliott> erm
06:16:47 <elliott> but I wouldn't object to floats being Fields
06:16:48 <pikhq_> True, Num is a pretty bad typeclass.
06:16:52 <elliott> because
06:17:01 <elliott> there's no point creating a whole mirrored hierarchy of "almost <algebraic structure>s"
06:17:10 <kallisti> pikhq_: it provides a number of useful hacks, though a better typeclass hierarchy could probably do the same.
06:17:15 <elliott> yes, you have to be careful with the properties when using floats
06:17:30 <elliott> but it's more like your whole program is taken as an approximation of a computation on the actual rationals/reals
06:17:37 <elliott> rather than the individual values being approximate
06:17:38 <elliott> IMO
06:17:46 <elliott> so it's justified to make them instances: also because it's really convenient
06:18:03 <kallisti> elliott: no I think we should remove Float and Double and only use CReal
06:18:04 <elliott> the other part of me objects to htis though because I want our interfaces to come bundled with proofs that their properties hold
06:18:08 <elliott> and you can't do that for floats
06:18:22 <elliott> at least not without a custom equivalence relation that you specify to be "close enough" for floats
06:18:28 <elliott> (with formal bounds on close enough for each operation, but still)
06:18:35 <elliott> *this
06:18:48 <kallisti> elliott: I... think it would be okay to concede on that for floats. because they're very useful.
06:19:02 <elliott> I take it you don't understand what I said
06:19:02 <elliott> because
06:19:05 <kallisti> for like, programs that do things rather than programs that serve as mathematical proofs.
06:19:05 <elliott> it's not about conceding
06:19:21 <elliott> a Monad should contain the proofs that it follows the monad laws, that's simple as
06:19:28 <elliott> something that doesn't follow those laws should not be allowed to be a Monad
06:19:31 <elliott> this is not controversial at all
06:19:36 <elliott> but you can't "just compromise"
06:19:40 <pikhq_> It's about how you define the typeclass.
06:19:44 <elliott> because the whole benefit of proof carrying is that
06:19:58 <elliott> - you can optimise aggressively based on the properties with /NO RISK/ of anything "going wrong" at runtime, it's 100% safe and type-safe
06:19:58 <kallisti> elliott: floats aren't monads though. how is this relevant to what I was saying.
06:20:17 <elliott> - you can use these properties in larger proofs of correctness - this is NOT a mathematical thing, this is about real programs
06:20:29 <elliott> - etc.
06:20:32 <elliott> kallisti: because Field is just like Monad
06:20:45 <elliott> it's an interface
06:20:47 <elliott> a structure
06:20:51 <kallisti> elliott: what is a viable replacement for floats?
06:20:53 <elliott> a formally-defined set of operations and rules
06:20:59 <elliott> kallisti: did i say there was one
06:21:00 <elliott> did i say
06:21:02 <elliott> floats aren't useful
06:21:02 <kallisti> elliott: no
06:21:03 <elliott> did i say
06:21:04 <elliott> i don't want floats
06:21:05 <elliott> no.
06:21:09 <kallisti> elliott: it was just a question. I was curious.
06:21:22 <elliott> hey kallisti what is a viable replacement for oxygen
06:21:29 <elliott> considering all the boundless anti-oxygen sentiment you've been expressing lately
06:21:49 <kallisti> elliott: so would floats still be treated as "numbers" in this typeclass hierarchy?
06:21:57 <kallisti> Float + Float = Float
06:22:09 <elliott> i think you're mixing up a bunch of things i said.
06:22:15 <elliott> what typeclass hierarchy, what are you talking about
06:22:20 <kallisti> feel free to clarify.
06:22:23 <elliott> you appear to read my messages non-linearly
06:22:36 <elliott> and mix ones after i explicitly change the track of what i'm saying to ones previously
06:23:23 <kallisti> okay.
06:23:26 <elliott> kallisti: i can't clarify something that i have no idea the basis of, so...
06:23:55 <kallisti> elliott: I'm assuming Field etc which have formal laws of their correctness would not take over the syntax of simple arithmetic?
06:24:02 <kallisti> because Float cannot fit in those
06:24:04 <kallisti> because
06:24:04 <elliott> uh
06:24:06 <kallisti> it does not obey those laws
06:24:19 <kallisti> but it's still nice to say "lol 0.5 + x"
06:24:23 <elliott> im just giving up on this because i explicitly said i was of two contradictory minds for different reasons and needed to reconcile them
06:24:24 <elliott> and
06:24:28 <elliott> also your questions are stupid
06:24:34 <zzo38> I know there are devices that strip out Macrovision, such as time base correctors. I do not have a time base corrector but I have a analog->digital->analog converter that among other things, removes macrovision (it also removes captions and everything other than the picture). But I don't know if that can be used in this VHS/DVD recorder.
06:24:54 <kallisti> elliott: perhaps I missed that part.
06:25:05 <elliott> <elliott> the other part of me objects to htis though because I want our interfaces to come bundled with proofs that their properties hold
06:25:06 <elliott> <elliott> and you can't do that for floats
06:25:13 <elliott> things i say don't make sense if you skip lines
06:28:05 <kallisti> elliott: so how about: keep "Nums as Fields" with Floats being a Field and obeying properties as approximate calculations of rationals/reals, and then have a seperate typeclass (or a convenient way to remove non-precise instances such as floats) for formally correct computations?
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06:28:31 <elliott> my response would be a long list of "you do not understand X, Y and Z", so I doubt you want to hear it.
06:28:40 <kallisti> no these are good
06:28:44 <kallisti> those are usually missing from your responses.
06:30:00 <elliott> you don't understand why dependently-typed languages matter. you don't understand why proof-carrying matters. you don't understand why formal properties matter. you don't understand why one cannot simply make proofs "optional" addons. you don't understand how proof carrying allows for very advanced and aggressive optimisations. you don't understand how proof carrying ensures very high levels of securit
06:30:00 <elliott> y statically at compile time.
06:30:05 <elliott> i think that's enough for now
06:31:31 <elliott> if you really want, you can ask in greater detail about why i think these things. you will get better results for the more specific statements
06:32:01 <kallisti> elliott: I was going on the premise that proof-carrying matters when attempting to devise a solution.
06:32:06 <elliott> oh, I forgot: you don't understand how proof carrying allows for distributed computing etc. without trust in any direction
06:33:02 <kallisti> elliott: what I'm saying is that you're basically talking about two different typeclasses.
06:33:20 <kallisti> one is proof-carrying and one isn't
06:33:31 <elliott> the solution to having a problem with an abstraction
06:33:39 <elliott> is not to "rip out" (not a well-defined operation) the problematic parts
06:33:47 <elliott> and call this half thing a "new abstraction"
06:33:58 <elliott> multiplying complexity does not solve anything
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06:34:51 <elliott> <elliott> at least not without a custom equivalence relation that you specify to be "close enough" for floats
06:34:51 <elliott> <elliott> (with formal bounds on close enough for each operation, but still)
06:34:51 <elliott> <elliott> *this
06:34:55 <elliott> this is one possible option, for instance
06:35:09 <elliott> and you recover the original behaviour by requiring the relation to be equality
06:35:18 <elliott> but it feels inelegant
06:35:30 <elliott> albeit giving the best possible properties for "precise" types and floats alike
06:37:28 <elliott> kallisti: does this help you understand my position?
06:37:42 <kallisti> elliott: yes
06:38:15 <kallisti> elliott: I think you would need to incorporate laws into the typeclass system rather than having them as friendship pacts, so that a) typeclasses could specify some rules to be optional b) optimizations could be specified in the language itself for instances that obey a particular set of rules c) you can opt out of rules that your instance doesn't obey d) you can define functions that allow you to satisfy those rules (in an
06:38:25 <kallisti> elliott: to have it all as one typeclass I mean..
06:41:04 <Sgeo> friendship pacts?
06:41:49 <elliott> "I think you would need to incorporate laws into the typeclass system rather than having them as friendship pacts"
06:41:49 <elliott> what I am saying is not even related to typeclasses; my system has no typeclasses. also, it's not "incorporated" into the system, and they're *certainly* not based on honour, that would defeat the whole point. the context is a dependently-typed language, and if you don't know how they can do logic and proofs then you understand them even less than I claimed
06:41:49 <elliott> "a) typeclasses could specify some rules to be optional"
06:41:49 <elliott> no. this does not aid a solution, at all. it makes matters a billion times worse by throwing away *every* *single* *benefit*, adding additional hassle, and giving incredibly suboptimal results even in the float case
06:41:52 <elliott> "b) optimizations could be specified in the language itself for instances that obey a particular set of rules"
06:41:55 <elliott> completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. yes, optimisation is but one benefit of proof-carrying, but it... is simply not relevant here, I only mentioned it as one of the reasons proof-carrying is incredibly important.
06:41:58 <elliott> "c) you can opt out of rules that your instance doesn't obey"
06:42:00 <elliott> hahahahahahaahahaha
06:42:02 <elliott> "d) you can define functions that allow you to satisfy those rules (in an"
06:42:04 <elliott> this was chopped off.
06:43:09 <kallisti> elliott: a like how you switched the context to dependently typed languages without telling anyone.
06:43:13 <kallisti> s/a/I/
06:43:21 <elliott> yeah
06:43:22 <elliott> see
06:43:28 <elliott> "proof-carrying"
06:43:31 <elliott> was a pretty big hint
06:43:35 <elliott> if you actually knew what you were talking about
06:43:41 <elliott> by hint, I mean literal outright statement
06:46:04 <kallisti> I wasn't aware that dependently typed languages are the only context in which proof-carrying can be talked about.
06:47:12 <elliott> the context was functional languages + formal proofs soooo... and anyway, it's not really relevant that a dependent language is the setting; with a term like "proof-carrying", the idea that the "proofs" might just be gentleman's agreements is not even a possibility
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06:47:39 <kallisti> elliott: right.
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07:31:12 <kallisti> Make all of your leaf classes final. After all, you're done with the project - certainly no one else could possibly improve on your work by extending your classes. And it might even be a security flaw - after all, isn't java.lang.String final for just this reason? If other coders in your project complain, tell them about the execution speed improvement you're getting.
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08:33:19 <kallisti> hmmm smalltalk could potentially be abused in polyglot languages.
08:33:24 <kallisti> as " is used for inline comments
08:34:43 <kallisti> so something like "\" would comment out most languages but leave smalltalk available
08:34:56 <kallisti> then a subsequent " would begin a smalltalk comment and end the other-language string
08:35:12 <kallisti> assuming multi-line strings are legal.
08:35:15 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
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10:50:05 <ais523> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=32100 (found via proggit); wow at the first comment
10:50:41 <ais523> I mean, the whole page is cringeworthy, but the first comment is particularly bad
11:01:19 <ais523> someone on Reddit described the attitude as "Pokémon exception handling"; I hadn't seen that before, but it's a good name for it
11:06:51 <kallisti> > foldr (*) 0 [1..10] :: Expr
11:07:07 <kallisti> >_>
11:07:11 <kallisti> oh
11:07:32 <ais523> > ->
11:07:37 <ais523> *
11:07:39 <ais523> > _>
11:07:41 <ais523> there we go
11:07:53 <kallisti> that actually times out on my bot running mueval
11:07:59 <kallisti> foldl does not
11:24:21 <kallisti> ais523: maybe they don't want to implement finally because they don't know how. :3
11:25:05 <ais523> kallisti: that was mentioned in the thread
11:25:10 <ais523> on Reddit, I thikn
11:27:46 <kallisti> the languages employers turn to when writing the software that makes the world turn are C/C++, Java, and PHP, in that order. C# is a close 4th, then everything else is a niche.
11:27:50 <kallisti> I think it's actually Java up top.
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11:44:35 <ais523> hmm, what do you call the things made with Flash that are basically interactive animated vector images, and have nothing to do with (compressed) raster video?
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12:17:04 <kallisti> ais523: ....flash?
12:17:19 <ais523> kallisti: not really specific enough
12:17:24 <ais523> perhaps "flash animation" would be the right name
12:18:54 <kallisti> probably.
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12:33:28 <Patashu> I'm still stuck on the 10th level of the MESH - Falling Hero demo
12:33:30 <Patashu> :|
12:33:36 <Patashu> right side's solved, left side I'm stuck on
12:37:18 <Patashu> where's zzo38/myndzi when you need em
12:50:11 <oklopol> *-not
12:51:16 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: and in case you aren't familiar with it the N -> D conversion is done with the subset construction (which can be extended for alternating -> deterministic as well, see my master's thesis for instance)
12:52:10 <oklopol> basically let your NFA A have state set S, then what you do is you take the set of subsets 2^S as the states of your new DFA A' and have as your new initial state the set of all initial states of A.
12:52:43 <oklopol> the transitions are given by having the transition U -> U' (where U, U' in 2^S) with label a if U' is exactly the set of states A can reach from the states U with label a
12:53:18 <oklopol> obviously the final states should then be just the sets containing at least one final state; it should be immediate that A' then accepts the same language as A.
12:54:19 <oklopol> you then need to minimize the DFA, for that you can just first assume that final states are separated from nonfinal states (exactly finals accept the empty word), and then keep separating states into smaller and smaller sets (making the eq relation of states finer) until all labels from equivalent states lead to equivalent states
12:54:44 <oklopol> oh and ofc drop unreachable states and states from which final states cannot be reached except a single sink state maybe, depending on your formalism
12:55:21 <oklopol> the conversion from regexps to NFA is very simple, OR is trivial, concatenation is just connecting final states to initial states, and kleene star is done by doing the same but to your own initial states
12:56:11 <oklopol> once you have two minimal DFA, just start from the initial states of each, and you'll find correspondence of states, if one exists, by just following the labels. we know that minimal DFA are unique up to this sort of isomorphism, so you get your answer from that.
12:56:44 <oklopol> apparently you left the channel before i had time to answer, but that's not really my problem
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13:02:56 <oklopol> i didn't really explain minimization very clearly, but you can think up the details with little difficulty
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13:29:05 <ais523> brilliant: Oracle and Google are arguing over whether the word "runtime" in a patent should be given its ordinary-language meaning
13:29:34 <ais523> Oracle claim it should be, and that that meaning is "during execution of the virtual machine"; Google claim it needs an explicit definition as "during execution of the virtual machine instructions"
13:29:44 <ais523> I'm wondering when the judge is going to yell at them that it obviously doesn't matter
13:30:08 <ais523> because they both agree that the term has the same meaning, they just disagree over whether the court needs to specifically define it as having that meaning
13:30:12 <ais523> which is, why does that matter?
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13:36:46 * kallisti is immune to sleep deprivation now.
13:37:22 <oerjan> he said, collapsing.
13:38:05 <oklopol> i have until 11. to finish a paper i made last summer and i just realized it's like the sloppiestly written paper ever
13:38:07 <oerjan> <quintopia> and i dont understand why confusing jasper and cumming provoked that repsonse <-- the closer the places, the more violent response to confusing them, duh
13:38:55 <oklopol> gonna be a long saturday :)))
13:42:43 <oerjan> <elliott> aid me in becoming toucan <-- i'm sorry i'm over quota on fowl puns
13:49:30 <kallisti> oklopol: write a perl script to fix it up. you'll be fine.
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14:03:51 <oklopol> i refereed a paper and broke it.
14:27:00 <ais523_> bleh, fire alarm
14:27:06 <ais523_> (just got back from a really obvious fire drill)
14:27:20 <ais523_> (only thing that'd have made it more obvious would have been being announced in advance
14:27:23 <ais523_> *)
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14:46:27 <ais523_> oerjan: it reminds me of an unexpected early-morning fire alarm at my secondary school
14:46:37 <ais523_> apparently, it's because the detectors detected "HEAT" in the kitchens
14:46:48 <ais523_> I thought, the kitchens are somewhere heat would be quite likely, surely?
14:47:12 <oerjan> you'd think
15:13:03 <ais523_> perhaps it meant more heat than usual
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15:22:27 <Gregor> elliott best not have left me any lambdabot-messages.
15:22:37 <Gregor> But then, lambdabot doesn't seem to be here.
15:22:42 <Gregor> SO I GUESS I'LL NEVER KNOW
15:30:28 <ais523_> where is elliott, anyway?
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15:59:31 <Gregor> ais523: Better question: Where is lambdabot?
16:07:29 <kallisti> !perl print int(rand(2))
16:07:32 <EgoBot> 0
16:07:41 <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making
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16:11:56 <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making.
16:19:37 <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen
16:31:01 <pikhq_> All power to penis
16:42:21 <kallisti> Gregor: it's a great excuse to slack off.
16:42:29 <kallisti> especially when you haven't been slacking off very much in the past few weeks.
16:44:32 * kallisti wishes that SQL injection were still a thing you could do.
16:44:50 <kallisti> maybe one day I'll find that horribly insecure site and exploit the shit out of it.
16:54:09 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012
16:54:16 <kallisti> pikhq_: have you seen this shit
17:20:02 <kallisti> why the fuck did I buy a red bull
17:20:14 <kallisti> oh, hm, it tastes good. maybe it tastes better when you don't sleep much.
17:20:40 <kallisti> the only problem is that it's way overpriced for the caffeine content.
17:20:57 <kallisti> though, recently I've started /not/ binge drinking caffeine
17:21:06 <kallisti> and instead drinking small amounts throughout the day
17:21:09 <kallisti> and it works better.
17:25:37 <kallisti> hi hi hi hi
17:26:06 <kallisti> this Red Bull can mysteriously says "Rexham" o nit
17:26:18 <kallisti> I think it scod for HEXHAM
17:26:41 <kallisti> KING HEXHAM
17:26:50 <kallisti> REXIMUS MAXIREX
17:26:57 * kallisti latin
17:41:21 -!- monqy has joined.
17:44:02 <kallisti> monqy: bye
17:44:08 <monqy> hi
17:49:18 -!- elliott has joined.
17:51:29 <kallisti> elliott: hihiii
17:51:53 <quintopia> are you just feeling silly or does caffeine do this to you?
17:52:44 <kallisti> no slep deprivation
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18:16:18 <ais523> `log coincidence
18:16:53 <HackEgo> 2010-05-03.txt:18:06:13: <alise> Maybe they just repeat naturally, or maybe it's just a coincidence.
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18:30:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
18:30:49 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
18:30:51 <oklopol> okokokoko
18:30:55 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:31:31 <elliott> 11:44:35: <ais523> hmm, what do you call the things made with Flash that are basically interactive animated vector images, and have nothing to do with (compressed) raster video?
18:31:32 <elliott> ais523: animation
18:31:37 <elliott> and/or game
18:31:52 <ais523> I was wondering if there was a general term
18:32:12 <elliott> flash :P
18:32:15 <elliott> as in, "a flash"
18:32:26 <elliott> youtube has a flash player, but the individual videos aren't flashes
18:33:30 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if this has anything todo with Shockwave + whatever the other thing that was merged to make Flash was
18:34:09 <elliott> ais523: shockwave still exists, if you can believe it
18:34:16 <ais523> elliott: I can
18:34:20 <elliott> ais523: as in, "is still updated"
18:34:22 <ais523> I can also believe that Quicktime still exists, but don't know for sure
18:34:32 <ais523> also Realplayer
18:34:41 <ais523> (as web browser plugins, I mean)
18:34:59 <elliott> ais523: quicktime is obviously still updated since it's still a core part of OS X :P
18:35:02 <elliott> (as a browser plugin too)
18:35:23 <elliott> oh dear, realplayer is on version 15
18:36:07 * elliott can't figure out the difference between shockwave and flash
18:36:12 <elliott> it doesn't help that flash used to be called shockwave flash
18:36:18 <ais523> quick, Mozilla, iterate version numbers faster to beat it!
18:36:22 <ais523> elliott: still is in my plugins list
18:36:48 <elliott> <ais523> quick, Mozilla, iterate version numbers faster to beat it!
18:36:57 <elliott> but that wouldn't be mathematically sound!
18:37:09 <elliott> firefox's version-number is the fastest-growing possible function
18:38:32 <elliott> ais523: I think one of the best things about Adobeacquiring Macromedia (wow, that happened in 2005)
18:38:41 <elliott> is that Adobe ended up with like
18:38:43 <elliott> five duplicate products
18:38:57 <elliott> that they had to justify
18:38:58 <ais523> as recently as 2005?
18:39:01 <elliott> X-D
18:39:03 <ais523> elliott: why didn't they just merge them?
18:39:16 <elliott> ais523: how do you merge two codebases?
18:39:26 <ais523> merge features, rather than code
18:39:32 <ais523> unless the codebases happen to be similar, which is unlikely
18:39:49 <elliott> well, OK
18:39:59 <elliott> basically you're asking "why didn't they discontinue one" :)
18:40:27 <ais523> yep
18:40:29 <elliott> What's the difference between the Flash and Shockwave Players?
18:40:29 <elliott> Flash and Shockwave Players are both free Web Players from Adobe. Together, they bring you the best rich media content on the Internet. Each has a distinct purpose. Flash Player delivers fast loading front-end Web applications, high-impact Web site user interaction, interactive online advertising, and short to medium form animation. Shockwave Player displays destination Web content such as interactive multimedia product demos and training, e-merch
18:40:29 <elliott> andising applications, and rich-media multiuser games. When you download Shockwave Player, it automatically includes Adobe Flash Player.
18:40:40 <ais523> well, "why didn't they discontinue one and give a migration path from it to other versions"
18:40:59 <elliott> so, umm, Flash is for animation and interactivity, Shockwave is for applications, or something
18:41:21 <elliott> http://www.shockwave.com/home.jsp ;; which is to say, games
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19:24:26 <elliott> ais523: christmas spam :D
19:24:43 <elliott> ais523: have you contacted graue yet? it's becoming impossible to follow recentchangs
19:24:44 <elliott> es
19:24:45 <ais523> it's been going on for a while
19:24:46 <ais523> and no, I haven't
19:24:54 <elliott> :(
19:25:00 <ais523> I'm something like three days behind with my work as is
19:25:17 <elliott> oh, looks like smjg has
19:25:24 <ais523> and I don't like to bother him with something that's under control, in that the spam can be cleaned up very quickly
19:26:20 <elliott> it's not under control if it massively disrupts the wiki...
19:26:51 <ais523> how is it disrupting anything but Recent Changes?
19:27:26 <elliott> that's a rather major thing to disrupt; furthermore, it's disrupting everyone's time because we have to constantly revert [[Excela]]
19:27:44 <elliott> I'm hardly the first person to complain that it's severe
19:39:54 <ais523> OK, emailed Graue
19:40:51 <elliott> ais523: in a week graue will return, post a message saying "sorry for not reading email, I've been busy etc. etc. etc.", op Timwi, and leave
19:40:57 * elliott calls it now
19:41:05 <ais523> elliott: more admins wouldn't help, I made that pretty clear
19:41:14 <elliott> ais523: stop it it
19:41:16 <elliott> hurst my joke
19:41:18 <elliott> youre killing it :(
19:47:16 <kallisti> ais523: y william hearst
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20:31:06 <oerjan> `addquote <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen
20:31:08 <HackEgo> 745) <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen
20:32:24 <olsner> oklopol :D
20:34:51 <elliott> `quote
20:34:52 <elliott> `quote
20:34:52 <elliott> `quote
20:34:53 <elliott> `quote
20:34:53 <elliott> `quote
20:34:57 <HackEgo> 80) <Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
20:34:57 <HackEgo> 360) <Cheery> [...] OOPS.. my cockfile got destroyed
20:34:59 <HackEgo> 172) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
20:35:11 <HackEgo> 539) <elliott> What does "life" actually mean, anyway; it seems to mean "this thing that's infinitely greater than all my actual hobbies that I do all the time because I rule"
20:35:12 <HackEgo> 264) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
20:35:47 <oerjan> hm was that about the SL = L theorem
20:35:52 <elliott> most of those suck :(
20:35:56 <elliott> `log <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
20:36:17 <HackEgo> No output.
20:37:12 <elliott> o_O
20:37:14 <oerjan> i don't understand 80
20:37:23 <elliott> you're too young
20:37:28 <elliott> (it's not funny though)
20:37:44 <elliott> 80, 360 and 172 are pretty bad
20:37:52 <oerjan> `log [t]hhe former is a very deep theorem
20:37:57 <HackEgo> No output.
20:37:58 <elliott> thhe former
20:38:03 <oerjan> oopd
20:38:08 <oerjan> `log [t]he former is a very deep theorem
20:38:14 <HackEgo> 2011-02-05.txt:02:09:38: <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
20:38:18 <oerjan> my speling, were diddit goo
20:38:21 <elliott> `logurl 2011-02-05.txt:02:09:38:
20:38:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-02-05
20:38:41 <elliott> lol, not that day or the previous
20:38:52 <oerjan> perhaps i said it in privmsg?
20:39:06 <elliott> oh probably
20:39:14 <elliott> in that case i won't have the logs of it
20:39:18 <elliott> do you log; if not rip
20:39:20 <oerjan> me neither
20:39:20 <elliott> the line's
20:39:21 <elliott> history
20:39:21 <elliott> ok
20:39:39 <oerjan> `log [t]he former is a very deep theorem
20:39:44 <HackEgo> 2011-02-05.txt:02:09:38: <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
20:39:57 <elliott> oerjan: pastelogs, dude
20:40:03 <oerjan> ah
20:40:08 <oerjan> `pastelogs [t]he former is a very deep theorem
20:40:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21522
20:40:25 <elliott> oh
20:40:29 <elliott> it was one of my logreading additions
20:40:35 <elliott> that i failed to mark appropriately :(
20:40:51 <elliott> oerjan: wow, we only had 291 quotes in feburary
20:40:51 <elliott> `qc
20:40:53 <HackEgo> 745 quotes
20:40:57 <elliott> *february
20:41:05 <oerjan> `logurl 2010-06-07.txt
20:41:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-06-07
20:41:17 <elliott> 12:59:39: <oerjan> <CakeProphet> I kind of feel like devising an abstract algebra.
20:41:17 <elliott> 12:59:59: <oerjan> they've all been invented already. probably. well, the simple ones.
20:41:17 <elliott> 13:00:19: * oerjan was reading about medial magmas/groupoids recently
20:41:17 <elliott> 13:01:13: <oerjan> one operator (call it *), fundamental equation: (a*b)*(c*d) = (a*c)*(b*d)
20:41:17 <elliott> 13:02:43: <ais523> hmm, post on rgrn
20:41:19 <elliott> 13:02:45: <oerjan> surprisingly, there are interesting consequences. if * is surjective, then it's essentially a kind of linear function, and all linear functions of two variables have this property.
20:41:22 <elliott> 13:02:49: <ais523> umm, ali
20:41:24 <elliott> 13:03:00: <ais523> two newsgroups which probably have more of an overlap than they ought to
20:41:26 <elliott> 13:03:11: <ais523> but a post on rgrn is not surprising, and a post on ali is
20:41:28 <elliott> 13:03:19: <ais523> it was asking about how to implement the factory and singleton patterns in INTERCAL
20:41:30 <elliott> 13:03:24: <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
20:41:45 <oerjan> oh that one
20:41:47 <elliott> oerjan: omfg!
20:42:01 <elliott> oerjan: that log, by complete coincidence, contains one of the /other/ programming games
20:42:07 <elliott> that I couldn't for the life of me find
20:42:21 <oerjan> the SL = L theorem was just another one where i didn't bother to read the whole book/article :P
20:42:30 <elliott> 00:19:32: <zzo38> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
20:42:30 <elliott> 00:19:37: <zzo38> Some people, in an effort to sound intelligent, quote other people. Now they look retarded.
20:42:30 <elliott> 00:19:47: <zzo38> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I'm going to grab a sandwich." Now they have two problems because the sandwich is poisoned.
20:42:30 <elliott> 00:20:01: <zzo38> Some people, when, now they have, a problem.
20:42:53 <oerjan> in fact i think that may have referred to earlier articles about the graph techniques they used
20:43:33 <kallisti> elliott: I can't say I've created two problems from a regex for more than 10 minutes at most.
20:44:01 <elliott> that one is a famous not-Zawinski quote.
20:44:07 <kallisti> yes.
20:45:13 <oerjan> the big question is whether zzo38 used regular expressions to generate those quips
20:47:07 <elliott> oerjan: you are assuming incorrectly that those aren't all direct quotes :P
20:47:23 <elliott> observe
20:47:24 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Some+people%2C+when+confronted+with+a+problem%2C+think+%22I'm+going+to+grab+a+sandwich.%22+Now+they+have+two+problems+because+the+sandwich+is+poisoned.%22
20:47:36 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Some+people%2C+in+an+effort+to+sound+intelligent%2C+quote+other+people.+Now+they+look+retarded.%22
20:47:50 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Some+people%2C+when%2C+now+they+have%2C+a+problem.%22 ;; ok this one wasn't a direct quote
20:48:34 <oerjan> well, i have to assume if i'm going to make any asses
20:49:48 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> well, i have to assume if i'm going to make any asses
20:49:51 <HackEgo> 746) <oerjan> well, i have to assume if i'm going to make any asses
20:50:23 * oerjan puts his fishing hook away
20:52:32 <monqy> 746 is a lot of quotes
20:53:12 <oerjan> maybe we're approaching quote singularity
20:53:33 <elliott> the moment where all quotes are bad
20:53:34 <elliott> `quote
20:53:35 <elliott> `quote
20:53:35 <elliott> `quote
20:53:35 <elliott> `quote
20:53:36 <elliott> `quote
20:53:44 <HackEgo> 721) <CakeProphet> but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] <oerjan> i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot.
20:53:45 <HackEgo> 539) <elliott> What does "life" actually mean, anyway; it seems to mean "this thing that's infinitely greater than all my actual hobbies that I do all the time because I rule"
20:53:51 <elliott> NOT THAT ONE AGAIN
20:53:56 <HackEgo> 83) <fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
20:53:56 <HackEgo> 682) <ais523> it's not a list of /all/ interesting esolangs, btw; otherwise you can take the first command from the first esolang, the second from the second, the third from the third, etc, then add 1 to all of them <ais523> and you get a new interesting esolang <ais523> diagonal principle…
20:53:56 <HackEgo> 626) <Gregor> Let us discuss the correct procedure for converting LP -> FLAC <fizzie> The correct procedure is: you put the LP into a flatbed scanner, scan it as a Windows .bmp file, and then rename that file to .flac.
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20:54:24 <elliott> hm
20:54:27 <elliott> `delquote 83
20:54:30 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
20:54:42 <oerjan> i actually thought that one was cute
20:54:53 <itidus20> a girl?
20:55:06 <oerjan> obviously it's just Gregor crossdressing
20:55:17 <itidus20> aha
20:55:21 -!- derrik has joined.
20:55:26 <elliott> oerjan: well propose a worse one that's there :P
20:56:07 <oerjan> now you're just being mean :P
20:56:50 <elliott> ok fine
20:56:51 <elliott> `revert
20:56:52 <HackEgo> Done.
20:57:24 <elliott> oerjan: er i just had a really bad idea
20:57:38 <oerjan> yay
20:57:49 <elliott> noooo
20:57:51 <oerjan> will it cause the end of life as we know it?
20:57:52 <itidus20> 3 cheers
20:58:04 <elliott> oerjan: not quite. but my hard drive might fill up
20:58:13 <oerjan> ah. even worse, then.
20:58:20 <itidus20> even worse!
20:58:21 <elliott> yes
20:58:23 <itidus20> yay
20:58:51 <elliott> oerjan: what if i wrote a bot to download every url mentioned in here as it is linked.
20:58:55 <elliott> and then
20:58:59 <elliott> hook it up to the logs
20:59:00 <elliott> so in the future
20:59:14 <elliott> you can see the links.... as they were... then...........
20:59:16 <elliott> this is a terrible idea wow
20:59:29 <elliott> it basically uses up gigs of disk space for really tiny amounts of nostalgia in the far future
20:59:51 <itidus20> elliott: you mean when url format is superceded?
21:00:04 -!- derrik has quit (Client Quit).
21:00:07 <elliott> yes that's totally what i meant
21:00:34 <itidus20> like when dns is replaced with a non-deterministic ai system where you just make natural language enquiries into the address bar :-?
21:00:55 <itidus20> i ...
21:00:58 <itidus20> i'll stop
21:01:01 <oerjan> itidus20: that's called google
21:01:06 <kallisti> no I think he means a esoWayBack
21:01:07 <itidus20> ah
21:01:12 <oerjan> at least many people use it that way
21:01:30 <elliott> i wonder if google is used more than dns these days
21:01:30 <elliott> as in
21:01:31 <elliott> not internally
21:01:33 <elliott> but by people
21:01:35 <Gregor> elliott, ais_isnt_here_so_I_dont_remember_this_number: MUSIX
21:01:37 <elliott> i think: probably
21:01:38 <kallisti> elliott: but you know the best language for that project?
21:01:42 <elliott> Gregor: what
21:01:42 <kallisti> hint: it's perl
21:01:44 <elliott> and it's 523
21:01:47 <Gregor> elliott: MU6
21:01:52 <elliott> Gregor: help
21:02:30 <Gregor> elliott: MU
21:02:42 <itidus20> elliott: by me it is. "darn. i forget if company foo is .com or .org .. i better visit google to check"
21:02:48 <elliott> Gregor: HELP
21:02:52 <oerjan> itidus20: i do that too sometimes
21:02:54 <Gregor> elliott: SIX
21:02:58 <elliott> Gregor: IM CRYING
21:03:04 <Gregor> elliott: IIRC, both you and ais wanted me to musix some musix musix.
21:03:15 <elliott> oh!
21:03:27 <itidus20> Gregor: are you fedoragirl?
21:03:28 <elliott> well AII isn't quite at that stage yet :P we're still toying with the physics code
21:03:37 <elliott> ais was a separate thing
21:04:43 <Gregor> itidus20: Although we both have long hair and hats, we are distinct persons.
21:05:09 <elliott> "I'm also a girl who neither uses Fedora GNU/Linux nor wears fedoras."
21:05:11 <itidus20> ok cool
21:05:18 <elliott> F- would not google again
21:05:38 <oerjan> fed, or a girl? you decide.
21:05:44 <itidus20> i will also keep an eye out for redhatboy
21:05:58 <elliott> fed or a freak
21:06:30 <itidus20> and blackhatyouthofindeterminategender
21:06:59 <Gregor> I would /nick to something but I'm on a lot of channels.
21:07:10 <elliott> Gregor: that's why it's fun
21:07:11 <itidus20> elliott:do you feel better now?
21:07:16 <elliott> than what
21:07:24 <itidus20> than when you were crying
21:07:51 <elliott> i wasn't
21:07:52 <elliott> actually crying
21:07:55 <Gregor> X-D
21:09:13 <itidus20> to have my brain in particular is so terrifyingly painful that i should rather be a moth made to flap my wings by an electrical current
21:09:31 -!- MSleep has joined.
21:09:51 <itidus20> not really
21:13:48 <itidus20> `log aii
21:13:54 <HackEgo> 2010-05-02.txt:06:21:16: <pikhq> There's also Hawaii that doesn't do DST.
21:14:05 <Gregor> lol
21:14:17 <Gregor> So glad we have `log :P
21:14:27 <Gregor> `pastelogs aii
21:14:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1013
21:14:54 <itidus20> thats a very weird pastelog
21:16:13 <itidus20> which could be best expressed as roger did
21:16:17 <itidus20> `log aiiigh
21:16:21 <HackEgo> 2011-12-05.txt:21:16:17: <itidus20> `log aiiigh
21:16:34 <itidus20> `log aiiigh,
21:16:38 <HackEgo> 2011-12-05.txt:21:16:34: <itidus20> `log aiiigh,
21:16:59 <itidus20> 2007-10-17.txt:00:20:41: <RodgerTheGreat> aiiigh, my brain
21:17:22 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
21:17:30 <elliott> 2006-09-18.txt:23:42:27: <GregorR-W> Waiiiiiiiiiiit ...
21:17:33 <elliott> Gregor: I'm still waitin'.
21:17:40 <Gregor> Waitin'?
21:17:53 <elliott> WAITIN' SINCE 2006
21:17:57 <elliott> `pastelogs axiomatic
21:17:59 <Gregor> Oh :P
21:18:01 <elliott> `pastelogs aargh
21:18:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26644
21:18:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18420
21:18:51 <Gregor> lolwow
21:18:55 <Gregor> That was quite the conversation in 2006.
21:19:09 <itidus20> these are really painful pastelogs to read
21:19:16 <Gregor> 23:43:55: <pikhq> Your teeth aren't up your ass.
21:19:17 <Gregor> 23:44:07: <feesh> thats what my awkward doctor told me though
21:19:19 <Gregor> 23:44:16: <GregorR-W> Is this a prison doctor?
21:19:21 <Gregor> 23:44:54: <pikhq> Did he then tell you that sleeping with strippers is good for preventing lung cancer or something?
21:19:24 <Gregor> 23:45:00: <feesh> I dunno I met him on the corner of my street
21:19:59 <elliott> waht
21:20:06 <elliott> itidus20: painful?
21:20:20 <elliott> 2007-01-10.txt:23:08:36: <CakeProphet> what's a costum enviornment... and how does it change the axiomatic grand law of python's print statement?
21:20:22 <elliott> kallisti: what
21:21:44 <Gregor> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2452 SMBC is so great.
21:21:45 <oerjan> costume cost, um
21:22:19 <itidus20> 2007-07-27.txt:09:52:24: <RodgerTheGreat> on an LCD, the color displayed on the screen has no impact on power usage! aargh
21:22:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:22:25 <elliott> hi ais523
21:22:29 <oerjan> the ais back
21:22:41 <itidus20> i learned to make my lcd screen turn itself off after my first one died
21:22:44 <elliott> im and ais back
21:22:48 <elliott> ijd a
21:22:52 <elliott> ;/ ;;; ; ;
21:23:00 <oerjan> eek i broke elliott again
21:23:09 <Gregor> ais523: MUSIX
21:24:13 <ais523> Gregor: ?
21:24:25 <ais523> oerjan: try bashing just next to the power button, that usually helps
21:24:31 <ais523> (don't hit the power button itself ofc, for obvious reasons)
21:25:02 <Gregor> ais523: MU6
21:25:45 <elliott> ais523: <Gregor> elliott: IIRC, both you and ais wanted me to musix some musix musix.
21:25:54 <ais523> elliott: ah, thanks
21:26:23 <Gregor> elliott: Pff
21:26:24 <ais523> I'm not sure I actually said that; I discussed that I was writing a game, plus music for it, and was stuck with where to go with parts of it
21:26:34 <ais523> Gregor: I thought that might be it but wasn't sure
21:27:23 <itidus20> ais523: nintendo never really did anything cool since inventing super mario bros. 1 and legend of zelda 1
21:27:41 <ais523> itidus20: that's kind-of a sweeping statement
21:28:17 <Gregor> Wii? BORING
21:28:43 <itidus20> i havent actually seen a wii up close
21:28:47 <ais523> there have been quite a lot of Nintendo consoles since the NES
21:29:00 <elliott> itidus20: have you played super mario galaxy
21:29:03 <elliott> if you don't think that game is cool
21:29:06 <elliott> you're probably not human???
21:29:23 <elliott> but maybe still a human
21:29:25 <elliott> i am not an expert on humanity
21:29:51 <itidus20> my comment more or less answers your question
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21:29:58 <itidus20> and perhaps explains my whole confusion
21:30:16 <elliott> what
21:30:24 <itidus20> i havent actually seen a wii up close
21:30:35 <elliott> oh
21:30:38 <ais523> hmm, now I'm trying to figure out the best way to send the channel a music file (I have it in .rg, .mid, .ogg, .pdf)
21:30:40 <itidus20> + i havent emulated wii games
21:30:48 <elliott> you don't go close to them to play them :P
21:30:56 <elliott> emulating wii games sounds terrible without the controller
21:30:58 <ais523> (with a boring open-source soundfont, but it still sounds reasonably good)
21:31:15 <elliott> ais523: write a program that outputs the .ogg
21:31:18 <ais523> elliott: depends on the game, some of the best wii games don't really care about the motion controls
21:31:40 <elliott> ais523: well, OK, but the wiimote is pretty unconventional even then
21:31:42 <ais523> oh /ouch/ YouTube's home page has got ugly
21:31:52 <ais523> elliott: indeed
21:32:09 <itidus20> yeah.. its like windows xp turned into windows 3.1
21:32:18 <itidus20> but.. its growing on me quickly
21:32:22 <ais523> hmm, I recommended Metroid Prime Trilogy to someone when they asked me what Wii games to buy
21:33:11 <itidus20> perhaps interface change is initially percieved as ugly, but after mere exposure we start to appreciate it
21:33:34 <elliott> "change upsets people", a controversial statement
21:34:04 <itidus20> humm
21:34:12 <itidus20> change kills people >:-)
21:34:42 <ais523> itidus20: that's why it's illegal to throw pennies at unpopular players during a football (soccer) match
21:35:10 <elliott> football (soccer)
21:35:28 <elliott> ais523: don't you mean "association football" >:)
21:35:38 <elliott> (the joke is wikipedia)
21:35:55 <ais523> meh, Wikipedia has reasonable redirects from all possible guessed disambigs for that, I think
21:36:07 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football
21:36:09 <elliott> they missed one!
21:36:15 <elliott> it's some irrelevant article instead
21:36:27 <itidus20> ok so its a tuesday here.. enough of my angst
21:36:40 <itidus20> time to be positive
21:38:31 <itidus20> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1164#comic
21:43:05 <elliott> it is now christmas day in three timezones!!! happy birthday ais523
21:43:27 <ais523> oerjan: go reboot elliott again for me, would you?
21:44:03 * oerjan bashes next to the power button
21:44:06 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Broadcast message from root (pts/0): The system is going down for reboot NOW!).
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21:44:50 <elliott>
21:45:02 <elliott>
21:45:09 <olsner> elliott:
21:45:15 <itidus20> !
21:45:20 <elliott> Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Check out
21:45:38 <elliott> how to the esoteric programming channel! Check out
21:45:45 <elliott> * Topic for #esoteric is:
21:45:51 <ais523> olsner: he's having to load a lot of stuff in the background
21:45:58 <ais523> so you'll get a bit of thrashing for a few minutes
21:46:07 <elliott> The IOCCC is background so you'll get a bit of thrashing
21:46:43 <elliott> Loading Markov models (43/768248)...
21:47:12 <elliott> Loading Markov models (5963/768248)...
21:47:17 <elliott> hi ais523
21:47:22 <ais523> hi elliott
21:47:29 <elliott> hi
21:47:33 <ais523> hi
21:47:36 <elliott> hi oerjan
21:47:38 <elliott> hi ais523
21:47:44 <ais523> hi
21:47:47 <elliott> hi
21:48:07 <elliott> Loading Markov models (23312/768248)...
21:48:13 <olsner> hi
21:48:18 <elliott> hi help
21:48:37 <elliott> Loading Markov models (101049/768248)...
21:48:43 <elliott> hi ais523
21:48:46 <elliott> what
21:48:47 <elliott> help
21:48:49 <elliott> help what
21:48:50 <oerjan> hi elliott
21:48:52 <elliott> hi what help hi oerjan what help
21:49:00 <ais523> fungot: go talk to elliott
21:49:00 <fungot> ais523: i had always deemed strange, but as she continued her choking he reached feebly in his fnord past the bidding of the vulgar, but by close questioning obtained a very picturesque legend of the fnord
21:49:03 <ais523> fungot: I'm not elliott!
21:49:04 <fungot> ais523: imaginations of all the prevailing horrors, we were still drifting south, meanwhile sinking deeper and deeper into that treacherous and sinister white immensity of tempests and unfathomed mysteries which stretched off for some fifteen hundred miles to the fnord, and gnarled, were of absorbing vividness and convincingness, and whenever he awaked he retained a vague sense of having undergone much more than he had been
21:49:11 <elliott> Loading Markov models (768247/768248)...
21:49:12 <elliott> hi what help ok
21:49:13 <ais523> ^style
21:49:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:49:14 <oerjan> ais523: maybe we should send him in for repairs
21:49:14 <elliott> hi ais523 help what ok
21:49:18 <elliott> ok what help hi hi hi hi hi help what ok
21:49:21 <ais523> oh, that explains it
21:49:27 <elliott> Loading Markov models (768248/768248)...
21:49:34 <elliott> I have been restored to an adequate level of loquaciousness.
21:49:51 <elliott> Hopefully the garrulity endowed by this upgrade shall endeavour to produce most pleasant statements for the considerable enjoyment of yourselves.
21:50:16 <elliott> (the joke is that the first 768247 out of 768248 models just contain "hi", "help", "what" and "ok", laugh)
21:50:20 <olsner> fungot: fnord past the bidding of the vulgar
21:50:20 <fungot> olsner: but whatever had happened, they did lift for a second
21:51:20 <oerjan> we have cthuliftoff
21:51:41 <itidus20> i kinda wish i knew what a markov model really was, but im probably in bliss by not knowing
21:53:18 <itidus20> anyway, if a cylinder is an extruded circle, and a cube is an extruded square, and a box is an extruded rectangle
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21:53:27 <Ngevd> Hello!
21:53:30 <ais523> itidus20: you're thinking of the word "prism" here, I think
21:53:32 <ais523> Ngevd: hi
21:53:34 <ais523> or at least should be
21:54:02 <itidus20> ais523: but suppose a prism is concave
21:54:21 <ais523> err, what? extruding always creates a prism
21:54:23 <Ngevd> No it isn't
21:54:34 <Ngevd> A prism is pretty damn convex
21:54:34 <itidus20> ok
21:54:41 <itidus20> hmm
21:54:42 <Ngevd> Unless the cross-section is concave
21:54:43 <oerjan> you could have a prism with a star shape base, say
21:54:43 <itidus20> ok again
21:54:57 <oerjan> *shaped
21:55:01 <itidus20> what about a moon shaped prism?
21:55:06 <Ngevd> What phase?
21:55:16 <olsner> which moon?
21:55:22 <itidus20> i dunno... like a banana
21:55:35 <kallisti> .
21:55:36 <olsner> a banana-shaped prism? that's a banana
21:55:36 <kallisti> ..
21:55:38 <kallisti> ...
21:55:41 <elliott> instance (Show a) => Show (IO a) where show m = "return " ++ show (unsafePerformIO m)
21:55:50 <elliott> good idea y/n
21:55:57 <oerjan> my bananas so far have been remarkable un-prism-like
21:55:59 <itidus20> humm
21:56:00 <oerjan> *y
21:56:02 <olsner> elliott: YES
21:56:11 <itidus20> ok like a C shape as a prism
21:56:26 <olsner> not very safe, but should be fun
21:56:26 <oerjan> elliott: ignores precedence
21:56:26 <Ngevd> That's be concave, but not due to its prisminess
21:56:34 <elliott> oerjan: that would obscure the intent :P
21:56:36 <itidus20> an extruded C shape
21:56:50 <itidus20> sort of like a halfpipe i guess
21:56:54 <oerjan> elliott: you could at least have added parentheses
21:56:57 <elliott> oerjan: hmph
21:56:59 <Ngevd> itidus20, what I just said
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21:57:14 <olsner> or used showsPrec to produce parens only when necessary?
21:57:14 <itidus20> well would it be a prism? :D
21:57:22 <Ngevd> Yes
21:57:38 <Ngevd> Prisms can be, but are not inherently, concave
21:58:30 <itidus20> i dunno what made me bring it up..
21:58:54 <Ngevd> Do all platonic solids have planar edge graphs?
21:59:07 <oerjan> a prism is the product space of an interval and some subset of R^2.
21:59:16 <oerjan> Ngevd: yes, obviously
21:59:31 <Ngevd> Perfect.
21:59:37 <Ngevd> Now NOBODY CAN STOP ME!
22:00:16 <oerjan> more generally, a graph on a sphere is also planar
22:00:29 <Ngevd> How about a torus?
22:00:58 <oerjan> just choose some point on the sphere outside the graph and project from it
22:01:14 <oerjan> torus, i don't think so
22:01:16 <olsner> K3,3 can be drawn on a torus, but is not planar
22:01:26 <Ngevd> Perfect.
22:01:34 <Ngevd> Now NOBODY CAN STOP ME!
22:01:36 <Ngevd> EVEN LESS!
22:01:45 <Ngevd> Or more, I'm not sure
22:02:05 <itidus20> Your lack of stoppability inspires awe among your peers.
22:02:06 <olsner> the problem of drawing K3,3 on a paper without crossing lines went all around my school in 4th or 5th grade, no-one solved it (=> it's unpossible)
22:02:37 <oerjan> olsner: it would only be impressive if one of you managed to actually prove it impossible
22:02:54 <elliott> does anyone know how to amplify with alsa?
22:03:02 <elliott> all my volumes are at 100% but it's still quiet
22:03:23 <olsner> oerjan: it would. I have no idea how to go about proving that
22:03:27 <elliott> sigh, gotta edit config files for it
22:04:22 <oerjan> hm might need the jordan curve theorem
22:06:04 <itidus20> ok something which to me as a newbie seemed interesting just occured to me
22:06:18 -!- derdon has joined.
22:06:30 <Ngevd> Hit us
22:06:37 <Ngevd> Not literally
22:06:59 <olsner> only hit ngevd
22:07:08 -!- DCliche has joined.
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22:07:28 <itidus20> suppose you have a string of length N on a piece of paper... and you curve it into a circle on that piece of paper
22:07:33 <elliott> <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: thread killed
22:07:34 <elliott> [...]
22:07:37 <elliott> <ari> Just out of curiousity, though, what *is* up with lambdabot? (i.e. the one on this channel right now?
22:07:37 <elliott> <Saizan> got patched to be more reliable
22:08:00 <oerjan> i want to swat elliott but i guess he's miserable enough.
22:08:05 <itidus20> is this a combination of rotations and translations?
22:08:12 <elliott> oerjan: wat
22:08:23 <oerjan> elliott: YOU BROKE LAMBDABOT
22:08:29 <elliott> MY PATCH HASN'T BEEN APPLIED YET :P
22:08:36 <oerjan> ah.
22:08:49 <oerjan> good i didn't swat then.
22:09:07 <itidus20> it seems to me that twisting a straight thing into a curve should really have a unique name for that geometric operation
22:09:14 <itidus20> or... rather...
22:09:15 -!- Klisz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:09:33 <oerjan> itidus20: rotations and translations turn straight lines into straight lines.
22:10:11 <itidus20> suppose you took water filing a cube and poured it into a long thin rectangular prism
22:10:11 <oerjan> there is something called a mobius transformation, though...
22:10:16 <itidus20> what have you done to the water?
22:10:23 <oerjan> which can turn lines and circles into each other
22:11:01 <itidus20> i guess its a scaling operation in a way...
22:11:18 <itidus20> like if you uhhh
22:11:40 <itidus20> if you have a rectangle of ratio x:y where x+y = z ..
22:11:48 <itidus20> and you alter x and y but maintain z
22:11:58 <itidus20> i guess thats probably scaling
22:12:12 <Ngevd> Stretching
22:12:16 <itidus20> z in this sense should probably be called 'a' to avoid confusion
22:12:17 <oerjan> itidus20: it's a linear transformation
22:12:31 <Ngevd> scaling would be x/y = z I think
22:12:46 <oerjan> ignoring that real water would be mixed in a chaotic way
22:12:57 <itidus20> yes ignoring such things is important
22:13:23 <itidus20> :-s
22:14:47 <oerjan> any translation, rotation or scaling, and some other things besides, can be written as a map \x -> A x + v where x is a vector variable, v a constant vector, and A a matrix.
22:14:50 <itidus20> i guess that since more or less all shapes can be approximated as polygons, then the rotate scale translate tends to be enough
22:15:03 <itidus20> but....
22:15:26 <elliott> grr: hint is too limited
22:15:42 <elliott> i think
22:15:51 <itidus20> but i suppose that it is one delusion to approximate an object with polygons.. it is another delusion to suppose an object ever remains the same between any 2 measurements
22:16:01 <elliott> at least it seems to have no way to compile an expression to bytecode, get its type, and then use it in the context of another expression
22:16:03 <oerjan> itidus20: you may have to divide it into pieces that are transformed differently, though.
22:16:21 <itidus20> im having a weird day... trying to think normal but failing
22:16:45 <oerjan> math isn't really normal thinking, many normal thinking people are bad at it.
22:17:27 <Ngevd> Maths is what should be normal but isn't
22:20:57 <itidus20> i used the example of a string since a string is good at behaving normally
22:21:18 <Ngevd> Unless it gets set on fire
22:21:21 <itidus20> like it doesn't really change it's nature when you twirl it
22:21:22 <Ngevd> Or wet
22:21:46 <itidus20> whereas if i had a rectangular prism and i tried to curve it
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22:21:51 <itidus20> i would have to slice it up
22:22:06 <Ngevd> Or stretch bits
22:22:17 <itidus20> stretching is pretty mind blowing
22:22:58 <itidus20> ah ok
22:23:22 <itidus20> so.. a rectangle.. the left side is the same length as the right side
22:23:39 <itidus20> but if you were to "curve" the rectangle..
22:23:55 <itidus20> then the ratio of the lengths of the sides would have to alter
22:24:35 <itidus20> which is where a fluid would come in handy
22:26:09 <itidus20> so i guess that a string can bend like it does because that on molecular level it is made of atoms
22:26:17 <itidus20> a fluid of atoms
22:26:42 <itidus20> *shrugs*
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22:30:41 <oerjan> itidus20: a rectangular prism would curve if it was made of soft plastic
22:30:53 <oerjan> it's all about material
22:31:25 <oerjan> and a string would break if it were made of something hard. like uncooked spaghetti.
22:32:06 <itidus20> i guess what i am trying to do is questioning the sufficiency of the rotation/translation/scale/reflection operations
22:32:53 <itidus20> so stretch was mentioned before.. i have seen this one in the paint program along with skew :D
22:32:59 <oerjan> itidus20: rotation and translation is pretty much all you can do with a hard substance without cutting it up
22:34:36 <itidus20> as for projection... thats a bit over my head
22:34:43 <itidus20> hehe
22:35:00 <copumpkin> projection is what you get when you shoot your hard substance into a wall at 16000 m/s
22:36:55 <itidus20> oerjan: what about if you suppose that your substance is perfectly soft
22:37:12 <itidus20> then i suppose it would have the property that it can pass through itself
22:37:50 <itidus20> but i am not sure if that property would ever be very useful
22:37:52 <oerjan> besides that, there are a _lot_ of more general mappings. i recall the riemann mapping theorem which is all about stretching to a different shape ... but with functions that have power series expansions in the complex plane
22:39:12 <itidus20> heavy..
22:39:53 <oerjan> itidus20: dark matter may be like that in a sense, perfectly soft. although it has no cohesiveness either, consisting of individual particles (presumably)
22:40:26 <itidus20> i dont know what i mean by perfectly soft
22:41:13 <itidus20> i do have an idea of perfectly hard though.. as seen in some collision detection in video games
22:41:37 <oerjan> hm about the riemann mapping functions: "Intuitively, such a map preserves the shape of any sufficiently small figure, while possibly rotating and scaling (but not reflecting) it."
22:41:50 <itidus20> my idea of perfectly soft would be more like an animation which can just change its pixels arbitrarily.. im just ... not a mathematician... ahahha..
22:43:31 <oerjan> itidus20: your perfectly hard idea may be equivalent to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigid_body
22:44:24 <itidus20> i suppose the polar opposite of a rigid body is not such a common idea as a rigid body :D
22:45:04 <oerjan> well there are also such ideas as an "ideal gas"
22:45:34 <elliott> oerjan: rigid bodies and ideal gases, are you just trying to list off things used for bad jokes
22:45:50 <itidus20> laughs out loud
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22:47:20 <itidus20> now were getting somewhere
22:47:43 <itidus20> so.. what i am pondering is a geometry of objects whose material is ideal gas
22:47:53 <itidus20> rather than rigid bodies
22:48:31 <itidus20> with the hope that rotation translation and scaling would not feel at home
22:48:46 <itidus20> or maybe they would still
22:48:58 <itidus20> but it would be nice if a larger family of transformations was now available
22:49:17 * kallisti presses his rigid body firmly against itidus20's perfectly ideal gas.
22:49:19 <kallisti> elliott: there you go.
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22:50:02 <itidus20> the rigid body is producing random ideal gas
22:50:21 <itidus20> thsi happens when i need to take a shit
22:50:36 <itidus20> nothing smells worse than the farts of someone who needs to visit the potty
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22:59:51 <kallisti> itidus20: ..
23:00:05 <itidus20> uhm..maybe ideal gas isnt entirely what i have in mind.. maybe it is
23:00:26 <itidus20> but i am basically thinking of the opposite of a rigid body
23:00:35 <kallisti> "i deal gas" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
23:00:38 <kallisti> so good.
23:00:55 <kallisti> yes it's time for #esoteric-fartjoke
23:01:10 <elliott> rigid body vs. ideal gas
23:01:23 <kallisti> 3x bad joke combo.
23:04:45 <itidus20> what i have in mind is a material which maintains it's saturation per volume regardless of stretching and shrinking
23:06:23 <itidus20> maybe thats not it
23:06:49 <kallisti> itidus20: do you have an internet connection?
23:06:59 <itidus20> i might instead be thinking of a body which is only a surface
23:07:07 <itidus20> kallisti: yes
23:07:31 <oerjan> itidus20: there are also incompressible liquids
23:07:43 <kallisti> itidus20: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas
23:08:16 * kallisti has a large store of valuable URLS
23:08:19 <kallisti> just ask if you need some.
23:08:44 <itidus20> like if you had some body which was only a surface...
23:09:04 <itidus20> then.. having no volume you could seem to stretch it freely
23:09:07 <Gregor> Are they all of the form echo topic | sed 's/ /_/g ; s|^|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/|' ?
23:09:19 <itidus20> oops no wait it has volume
23:09:22 <kallisti> Gregor: there are many like that yes.
23:09:24 <itidus20> but it contains a vaccuuum
23:09:41 <oerjan> kallisti: actually, i didn't see a good url for incompressible liquids
23:09:46 <itidus20> uhmm
23:10:03 <kallisti> Gregor: but if you ask me a specific topic I can probably procure URLs in my vast collection that are relevant to your query.
23:10:28 <kallisti> Gregor: I cannot stress how valuable these URLs are. It's hard to discover sites on the web.
23:10:51 <itidus20> so! this type of body has the following properties. 1) it has a perfectly deformable surface. 2) it always maintains the same volume.
23:11:13 <kallisti> itidus20: are you talking about an ideal gas still?
23:11:17 <itidus20> what am i dealing with in this case?
23:11:18 <itidus20> i don't know
23:11:53 <oerjan> i think an incompressible liquid might be closer, as i think that preserves volume
23:12:20 <itidus20> well volume preservation seems important to me in using the term "body"
23:12:48 <itidus20> that would also give it a relationship with a rigid body which also preserves volume
23:12:51 <kallisti> itidus20: you have a blob. if you punch it the other side will poke out.
23:13:05 <oerjan> itidus20: surprisingly, solid bodies apparently often compress more under pressure than liquids do
23:13:20 <kallisti> if you try to squish it, it will stretch out from the top and bottom of your fist.
23:13:31 <itidus20> but a perfect blob
23:13:32 <kallisti> it's one of those squishy blob toys.
23:13:37 <kallisti> yes perfect blob.
23:13:47 <oerjan> no it's The Blob, run away!
23:14:44 <itidus20> ok heres the thing
23:15:06 <itidus20> i want to create an object which gets beyond the old rotate/translate/scale
23:15:16 <itidus20> since they are kind of boring
23:16:24 <itidus20> maybe i shouldn't....
23:16:30 <itidus20> not good for my brain
23:18:01 <itidus20> the problem i guess is that the old rotate/translate/scale are not infact boring..
23:18:08 <itidus20> i am projecting my own boringness onto them
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23:19:08 <oerjan> there's a theorem that says you can get any polygon onto any other of the same area by cutting it up and translating. i think not even rotation is needed.
23:19:17 <oerjan> iirc
23:20:47 <kallisti> oerjan: that seems rather obvious actually.
23:20:57 <kallisti> well..
23:21:02 <kallisti> it's easy for regular polygons.
23:22:50 <oerjan> well i seem to recall it mentioned in relationship to banach-tarski (which requires 3d, rotations and nonmeasurable sets)
23:25:12 <oerjan> oh hm maybe i'm thinking of the rather more advanced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_circle-squaring_problem
23:26:02 <itidus20> theres a useful idea i can think of in relation to DMM's piet language
23:26:14 <itidus20> the pixel area of a shape
23:27:03 <shachaf> elliott: What happened to QHC?
23:27:13 <itidus20> since the pixel area of a shape has a very simple intuitiveness for "you can get any polygon onto any other of the same area by cutting it up and translating."
23:27:17 <elliott> shachaf: It was lost in the Great Hard Drive Crash of I Forget When.
23:27:44 <shachaf> The Quixotic Haskell Compiler?
23:27:50 <itidus20> basically by translating each pixel of color N from bitmap A to bitmap B
23:28:24 <itidus20> well there was some program in piet which calculates PI by using a literal circle made of pixels
23:28:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolyai-Gerwien_theorem is the simple version with polygons if you also allow rotations
23:30:04 * elliott googled for: famous bisexual toucans
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23:54:42 * kallisti googled for: can you get any toucan by cutting and translating toucans
23:56:18 * kallisti is now 24 hours without sleep.
23:56:46 <kallisti> when I walk around the house I occasionally feel like I'm going into little micro sleep things.
23:56:54 <elliott> 24 hours is nothing stfu
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23:57:42 <kallisti> elliott: okay I'm 24 hours without sleep after getting 2 and a half hours of sleep after not staying awake for I don't remember how long but definitely not 24 hours.
23:57:58 <kallisti> um
23:58:01 <elliott> after _not_ staying awake?
23:58:04 <kallisti> after staying awake
23:58:06 <kallisti> .
23:58:39 <oerjan> :%s/asleep/awake/g
23:59:03 <kallisti> watr
23:59:23 <oerjan> kallisti: THERE IS NO MORE SLEEP
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