←2011-12-10 2011-12-11 2011-12-12→ ↑2011 ↑all
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00:08:03 <ais523> <Star651, via email> Is this a spambot or something? I just got a user talk page message from Phantom Hoover about the BF-inspired languages, the "brick brain brochure."
00:08:09 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: YOUR ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES
00:08:15 <itidus21> http://www.google.com/search?q=do+a+barrell+roll
00:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, OH NO
00:08:59 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: are you a robot?
00:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, no.
00:09:43 <olsner> ok, you pass the test
00:10:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, please inform Star651 of my credentials.
00:10:49 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I've explained that it's an inside joke
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00:17:30 <oerjan> well it's a joke until he snaps, anyway.
00:17:45 <olsner> brick brain?
00:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> See the brochure.
00:22:25 <oerjan> i think Phantom_Hoover considers that an upgrading procedure.
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00:24:14 <ais523> oh, Star651 also top-posts, it seems
00:24:42 * olsner always top-posts
00:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
00:24:54 <olsner> just to stick it to the complainers about top posts
00:24:55 * oerjan swats olsner -----###
00:25:02 <olsner> they are the problem, not top-posts
00:25:21 <kallisti> olsner: hater's gonna hate
00:26:16 <monqy> I top-post whenever everyone else is top-posting because inconsistency makes me die
00:27:00 <ais523> monqy: I edit my quote of the other person's post into one that uses wrapping and quoting correctly before answering it
00:27:36 <monqy> dedication
00:29:40 <olsner> and/or a waste of time :P
00:29:54 <ais523> it makes it easier for me to read!
00:30:38 <Sgeo> elliott dammit
00:30:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, kallisti, UPDATE
00:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Dialoglog!
00:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> What's everyone got against top-posting?
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00:41:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Context without back come ever you if read to hard things makes it.
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00:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are crank physics theories always nuts.
00:49:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They're never fun little mathematical models which don't actually square with reality; they're invariably completely off the hook.
00:49:52 <monqy> fond memories of vortex math
00:50:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly!
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00:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was going to be all vectors and stuff, not deeply misunderstood modular arithmetic!
00:51:29 <oerjan> vectors are deeply misunderstood modular arithmetic, from a certain point of view.
00:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan if this is going to turn into some crazy group theory crap...
00:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Or worse, category theory.
00:52:21 * copumpkin chimes in
00:52:22 <oerjan> no no, crazy ring theory.
00:52:45 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: some of the alternative explanations for dark matter uses different formulas for gra[Cvitation
00:53:12 <oerjan> vector spaces are modules over a field
00:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> copumpkin, please tell me "category theory" pings you.
00:53:28 <copumpkin> lol no
00:53:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Rings are basically groups with bits stuck on.
00:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Also can you produce all vector spaces from the rings associated with Z_n?
00:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait those aren't even all rings.
00:54:38 <oerjan> it is possible "module" and "modular" have the same origin, even. i'm not sure.
00:54:50 <oerjan> yes they are all rings. just not all fields.
00:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
00:55:37 <oerjan> only Z_p for prime p are fields, which is a rather small selection of all fields.
00:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> They have the same cardinality!
00:56:20 <oerjan> wat
00:56:25 <monqy> i agree with oerjan
00:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Z_p vs. Z_n.
00:56:49 <oerjan> each Z_n has cardinality n.
00:57:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean {Z_p} vs. {Z_n}.
00:57:32 <oerjan> oh well. it's still a small subset of all _fields_.
00:57:52 <oerjan> of which there are uncountably many, in fact to-big-to-be-a-set many.
00:58:39 <oerjan> *too-
00:58:51 <zzo38> The swephexp.h file does not entirely agree with the documentation
00:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, damn you, ZFC!
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00:59:46 <oerjan> also Z_p are the prime fields of characteristic p. there is also the prime field of zero characteristic, aka the rationals.
01:02:17 <oerjan> i see by googling it's a little inconsistent whether that is included in the definition of prime field.
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01:10:29 <tswett> Huh. It turns out my keyboard can, without too much difficulty, play a note 6 octaves below middle C, or 7 octaves above.
01:11:47 <olsner> well done! my keyboard only does clicks
01:11:50 <tswett> Soooooooo useful.
01:12:13 <monqy> my keyboard does clacks. it's okay.
01:13:16 <tswett> My other keyboard just goes pitter-patter.
01:13:30 <tswett> Actually, it can also play a note 6 octaves below middle C. You just need a wristwatch to do it.
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01:56:53 <zzo38> Documentation for Swiss Ephemeris seems to have a lot of mistakes in it. Do you know of any other ephemeris programs with free software licenses?
01:58:17 <kallisti> so uh, in Python, does r+ truncate on write?
01:58:22 <kallisti> or is it append?
02:13:21 <olsner> it seems to be a bit useless to be able to read from a truncated file
02:15:12 <pikhq> kallisti: Neither.
02:15:45 <pikhq> As that's just a naive wrapper around ISO C fopen, "r+" opens the file for reading and writing, with the file pointer at the beginning of the file.
02:15:51 <pikhq> Erm, stream pointer.
02:15:55 <pikhq> Let's not be confusing. ;P
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02:30:52 <kallisti> pikhq: ah okay
02:31:07 <kallisti> so a full read of the file followed by subsequent writing will be very similar to writing in append mode.
02:31:21 <kallisti> but writing before reading will probably do horrible things.
02:33:36 <Sgeo> naive?
02:35:28 <kallisti> ?
02:40:54 <kallisti> pikhq: uh... how do I route stdout and stderr to the same file and in chronological order.
02:41:01 <kallisti> I tried > log.txt 2> log.txt
02:41:06 <kallisti> but the order is weird.
02:42:08 <kallisti> I also tried 2>&1 > log.txt but that didn't seem to work either.
02:43:01 <shachaf> >log.txt 2>&1
02:43:16 <shachaf> And learn how shell redirection works. :-)
02:43:24 <kallisti> shachaf: how does it work?
02:43:27 <kallisti> :)
02:44:07 <kallisti> also I found &> which does what I want.
02:44:15 <oerjan> magnets.
02:44:42 <shachaf> kallisti: You should still learn how shell redirection works.
02:44:46 <kallisti> shachaf: it doesn't really make any sense to me that the order of redirects would matter.
02:44:57 <shachaf> Why not? They're "executed" in order.
02:45:08 <shachaf> Otherwise how would you, say, swap stdout and stderr?
02:45:30 <kallisti> ah okay. so bash is weird and sequential and not declarative. okay got it.
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02:45:48 <kallisti> redirection is assigning of file descriptors.
02:45:53 <shachaf> Yes.
02:47:21 <kallisti> shachaf: obviously you use the flip command to swap stdout and stderr
02:47:45 <kallisti> flip find . -type f -name *porn* -delete
02:47:58 <shachaf> "sequential" and "declarative" are hardly antonyms, by the way.
02:48:17 <kallisti> well sure
02:50:14 <kallisti> shachaf: um, how does that help you swap stdout and stderr? also how is that a valuable use case?
02:50:33 <shachaf> kallisti: You might need to use 3. :-)
02:51:31 <kallisti> what is 3 again.
02:53:25 <pikhq> You can use any number of file descriptors.
02:53:50 <pikhq> foo 2>&3 1>&2 3>&1
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02:54:19 <kallisti> are they not normally taken by other things? I thought 0, 1, and 2 were special and others referred to specific files.
02:54:25 <kallisti> or, could possibly refer to those files.
02:54:52 <pikhq> 0, 1, and 2 are special and others are allocated by various system calls.
02:55:23 <kallisti> oh okay, I think I was confusing file handle with file descriptor.
02:55:45 <kallisti> each process has its own set of file descriptors
02:56:25 <pikhq> Yes. Also, each process inherits the set of file descriptors from its parent.
03:00:03 <kallisti> why do blank copies of files keep appearing in nautilus
03:00:16 <kallisti> with exactly the same name as their counterpart.
03:01:14 <kallisti> ah ls reveals that they have a ? at the end of their name, but the ? isn't displayed.
03:02:19 <pikhq> That sounds like a Nautilus bug.
03:03:07 <pikhq> Also, I'd be willing to bet that's not ? but either an invalid UTF-8 sequence or a character you don't have a font for.
03:03:33 <kallisti> possibly
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03:30:55 <Gregor> The most annoying thing about YouTube's new look is that the box in the corner telling you about its new look keeps reappearing X_X
03:34:14 <kallisti> Gregor: doesn't for me. do you have an account?
03:34:22 <Gregor> Yup
03:34:27 <kallisti> it only mentioned it once for me. hm
03:35:10 <Gregor> Honestly, /everything/ about the new look is rife with awesome. I am on the new YouTube look bandwagon. I'm not one of these "oh Facebook changed I want the old one waaaah" whiners.
03:35:14 <Gregor> BUT I want that damned box gone :P
03:35:25 <kallisti> the new look is awesome, yes.
03:35:35 <kallisti> I basically now go to youtube instead of facebook when bored.
03:35:42 <kallisti> as far as homepage
03:35:53 <kallisti> before I would go to youtube if I had something specific I was looking for
03:36:02 <kallisti> but now I just subscribe to shit and await new things to appear.
03:36:07 <kallisti> +for
03:36:24 <Gregor> I have a bunch of subscriptions. The old sub-boxes were really confusing because they were sorted by most recent upload, but showed all recent uploads, so there was no single view of time.
03:38:31 <Gregor> Mind you, the fact that it now by default shows every time someone you've subbed to posts a comment, likes a video or picks their nose is really obnoxious, but that's one check-box away. Ironically, one check box that it seems to remember for me, unlike the nagbox in the corner >_>
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04:00:46 <zzo38> Are file descriptors 0 and 1 and 2 special or are they just assigned standard meanings?
04:06:42 <shachaf> zzo38: Is that an exclusive or?
04:06:49 <shachaf> They're special because they're assigned standard meanings.
04:06:57 <shachaf> You can close them and use them for whatever you want, though.
04:09:58 <pikhq> The only special thing about them is that they are stdin, stdout, and stderr by convention.
04:10:20 <pikhq> And this is implemented by attaching the other ends of them to the terminal.
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04:21:34 <shachaf> Well, yes.
04:22:57 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is what I meant by my question
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05:45:00 <pikhq> Y'know, I think the Zimbabwe dollar has more value now than it ever did when it was an official currency.
05:45:28 <pikhq> Simply because people go "$100,000,000,000,000 bill? Sweet!"
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06:35:47 <zzo38> I didn't know that
06:36:08 <zzo38> ?thank you thanks
06:36:09 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: thank you thanks
06:36:24 <shachaf> Hey, #esoteric, is there any language that implements conditional and/or indirect comefrom?
06:36:42 <zzo38> shachaf: I think some variant of INTERCAL have
06:37:49 <shachaf> Oh, all I needed to do was look it up.
06:37:49 <pikhq> Seems C-INTERCAL does.
06:38:34 <shachaf> So you have to use a special-purpose conditional.
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07:59:53 <zzo38> I could make "lower" and "cohoist" for a few of the transformers in the transformers library, and I could make some of them like "instance Monoid s => Extend (StateT s Identity)" and whatever but I don't know if it can make for any arbitrary comonad instead of only Identity
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08:06:29 <zzo38> Do you have any idea how?
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08:49:29 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
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12:42:16 * oerjan notes that in today's square root of minus garfield, it's not clear whether the transformation applies per panel or throughout the strip, not even in the alternative version. this is because each original panel has "a" as the first vowel and "e" as the last one.
12:43:08 <oerjan> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/)
12:47:56 <kallisti> Sgeo: updootlbreet
13:05:45 <kallisti> Sgeo: GEE I WONDER WHO THE HERO OF DOOM COULD BE.
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13:38:17 <Ngevd> Hello!
13:38:37 <oerjan> o hell
13:38:47 <Ngevd> Norway or Jamaica?
13:39:25 <Ngevd> s/Jamaica/Cayman Islands/
13:40:02 <oerjan> well the one in norway is less than an hour from here, so...
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13:40:09 <Ngevd> Fair 'nuff
13:40:15 <Ngevd> I had an idea for an esolang
13:40:25 <Ngevd> It's pretty eso, I need to work on the lang
13:40:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: get ready with the brick!
13:40:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I've had a brick trained on Ngevd for some time now.
13:41:17 <Ngevd> It involves a number of ants on a varying length Mbius strip
13:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Could still be a heavily-disguised BF derivative.
13:42:12 <Ngevd> The ants move at different speeds according to a polynomial that is associated with each ant individually
13:42:43 <Ngevd> When they meet, something happens, depending on whether they are in the same direction or "side"
13:42:48 <Ngevd> That's as much as I have
13:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Overly time-dependent, would not buy again.
13:44:17 <Ngevd> Maybe if I let the ants breed?
13:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe.
13:45:02 <Ngevd> Of course, that would be horrible ant biology
13:45:12 <Ngevd> And it's still not langy enough
13:45:29 <kallisti> Ngevd: side?
13:45:33 <kallisti> mobius strip is one-sided.
13:45:38 <Ngevd> Hence "side"
13:46:29 <Ngevd> If you cut a little bit the ants are on off, that gives you sides
13:49:13 <Ngevd> So two ants can be in the same location on a physical strip, but cannot see eachother due to the tape being in the way
13:50:22 <Ngevd> I am going to write up a detailed spec shortly
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14:08:53 <kallisti> is 1/0 = Infinity in Haskell an arbitrary decision?
14:09:03 <Ngevd> Yes
14:09:10 <Ngevd> For example, compare:
14:09:14 <Ngevd> > div 1 0
14:09:15 <lambdabot> *Exception: divide by zero
14:09:27 <Ngevd> Actually wait
14:09:35 <Ngevd> It could be to do with the spec for
14:09:39 <Ngevd> Float
14:10:16 <kallisti> no it's not part of the IEEE standard
14:10:53 <Ngevd> > divMod 1 0
14:10:54 <lambdabot> *Exception: divide by zero
14:10:57 <olsner> @type div
14:10:59 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
14:11:06 <olsner> @type (/)
14:11:07 <lambdabot> forall a. (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a
14:11:09 <Ngevd> > div' 1 0
14:11:10 <lambdabot> *Exception: Ratio.%: zero denominator
14:13:34 <kallisti> I was just wondering if it had any basis in anything.
14:14:06 <kallisti> or if it was chosen.... just cuz lolz
14:14:13 <oerjan> kallisti: it's just ghc following IEEE floating point, it's not even mandated in the standard
14:14:25 <oerjan> (haskell standard)
14:14:30 <kallisti> oerjan: so how is that following IEEE floating point if it's not mandated?
14:14:32 <kallisti> oh..
14:14:33 <kallisti> okay.
14:14:40 <kallisti> okay so then.... my question remains
14:14:46 <kallisti> as I never mentioned GHC
14:14:50 <oerjan> although there _is_ a function to check if your floating point type is IEEE compatible
14:14:54 <oerjan> :t isIEEE
14:14:55 <lambdabot> forall a. (RealFloat a) => a -> Bool
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14:15:12 <kallisti> > isEEE (1/0)
14:15:13 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `isEEE'
14:15:19 <kallisti> > isIEEE (1/0)
14:15:20 <lambdabot> True
14:15:27 <kallisti> > isIEEE (0/0)
14:15:28 <lambdabot> True
14:15:31 <kallisti> hmmm, okay.
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14:15:39 <oerjan> kallisti: i mention ghc because anyone could make a compliant haskell implementation where Double was _not_ IEEE.
14:15:58 <oerjan> > isIEEE (undefined :: Double)
14:15:58 <lambdabot> True
14:16:02 <kallisti> so... the whole infinity negative infinity thing /is/ compatible with IEEE?
14:16:04 <oerjan> it only looks at the type
14:16:19 <oerjan> kallisti: mandated by
14:16:32 * kallisti couldn't find where it was mandated in the wikipedia article
14:16:34 <oerjan> afaik
14:16:44 <itidus21> hmm
14:16:46 <kallisti> okay well... is that decision arbitrary?
14:16:53 <kallisti> the IEEE decision to make 1/0 infinity
14:17:29 <itidus21> while a mobius strip is one-sided, one can still pierce it at any point with a needle, and stick a red clump on one end of the needle and a white clump on the other end
14:18:02 <itidus21> and say, position red clump on the strip is in some relationship with position white clump
14:18:42 <itidus21> but i don't know if this is relevant
14:18:52 <Taneb> It is
14:19:05 <Taneb> I think I will use that argument in my spec
14:19:05 <oerjan> hm maybe it _isn't_ mandated then
14:19:20 <kallisti> oerjan: I can't find out because I have to PURCHASE THE STANDARD WTF
14:19:29 <oerjan> ah right.
14:19:36 <itidus21> Taneb: yay
14:20:01 <oerjan> when i become world dictator i will make all non-freely available standards illegal, have no fear.
14:20:07 <olsner> but the division you saw causing an exception instead of infinity was not a floating-point operation, why is IEEE involved in your integer divisions?
14:20:28 <kallisti> it's not
14:20:32 <kallisti> we're talking about floating point division
14:21:02 <kallisti> I'm asking "is the decision that positive/0 = infinity arbitrarily chosen by <someone> or is it grounded in some kind of sane mathematical reasoning"
14:21:40 <itidus21> is it a decision? :>
14:21:45 <kallisti> yes
14:22:08 <itidus21> ah.
14:22:11 <kallisti> > 1/0
14:22:12 <lambdabot> Infinity
14:22:15 <kallisti> someone decided that would happen.
14:22:24 <Taneb> > 0/0
14:22:25 <lambdabot> NaN
14:22:32 <Taneb> Hang on
14:22:38 <itidus21> i'm remembering now that mathematics can't just suppose things to be natural
14:22:39 <Taneb> I think it is mathematical
14:22:55 <Taneb> How many zeros do you need to add together to make 1?
14:23:02 <kallisti> I know it's based on limits.
14:23:08 <itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:23:15 <Taneb> You can add all your life and not get there
14:23:21 <Taneb> Therefore 1/0 is infinite
14:23:29 <kallisti> `addquote < itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:23:33 <kallisti> god damnit irssi
14:23:35 <kallisti> quit that shit
14:23:37 <HackEgo> 758) < itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:23:45 <kallisti> `delquote 758
14:23:49 <HackEgo> ​*poof* < itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:23:55 <kallisti> `addquote <itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:23:58 <HackEgo> 758) <itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:23:59 <itidus21> yay
14:24:08 <itidus21> c'est indefatigueable
14:24:19 <oerjan> > 1/((-1)/0)
14:24:20 <lambdabot> -0.0
14:24:29 <oerjan> er
14:24:42 <itidus21> `delquote 758
14:24:46 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <itidus21> te most amazing thing about mathematics is that you can prove anything
14:24:47 <olsner> kallisti: I probably misunderstood what the disagreement was... I thought someone was arguing that 1/0 isn't infinity in haskell
14:24:50 <oerjan> > 1/(1/((-1)/0))
14:24:50 <lambdabot> -Infinity
14:24:51 <Taneb> > 1/((-1)/0) == (0 :: Float)
14:24:52 <lambdabot> True
14:24:57 <kallisti> olsner: no there's no argument
14:25:00 <kallisti> it was kind of just a question.
14:25:04 <Taneb> > (-0.0) == 0.0
14:25:05 <lambdabot> True
14:25:10 <olsner> no argument!? how boring :(
14:25:19 <Taneb> > show (-0.0)
14:25:20 <lambdabot> "-0.0"
14:25:20 <kallisti> yes, just friendly discussion. so lame!
14:25:27 <itidus21> i think kallisti is asking what is the proof that 1/0 is infinitty
14:25:36 <kallisti> well no, not really.
14:25:36 <oerjan> kallisti: when calculating division by zero, +0 is treated differently from -0.
14:25:46 <Taneb> In other news, Gregor just reached level 23
14:25:57 <Taneb> :)
14:26:00 * kallisti is asking for the rationale of the decision.
14:26:17 <oerjan> > 1(-0) -- this may not count though, hm
14:26:18 <lambdabot> 1
14:26:18 <itidus21> kallisti: just to set things straight... i know nothing about math
14:26:20 <oerjan> er
14:26:22 <kallisti> not necessarily it's mathematical truth under some algebraic structure
14:26:23 <oerjan> > 1/(-0) -- this may not count though, hm
14:26:24 <lambdabot> -Infinity
14:26:27 <Taneb> Oooooh, so did ais523
14:26:27 <oerjan> oh it does
14:26:43 <itidus21> so.. i just pretend basically
14:27:21 <kallisti> oerjan: according to wikipedia the only thing it mentions is that division by zero should return NaN under IEEE
14:27:37 <kallisti> so... I'm just wondering where and why this decision came about to allow infinity and negative infinity
14:27:42 <kallisti> the background of it, basically.
14:27:46 <itidus21> since when does IEEE dictate math :>
14:27:52 <kallisti> it doesn't.
14:28:17 <itidus21> hmm. i guess it steps in when trying to represent math with a computer
14:28:38 <kallisti> ding!
14:28:56 <itidus21> dewjdoiwejiod let's refer back to my original statement "just to set things straight... i know nothing about math" .. i can only dig my hole deeper
14:29:16 <oerjan> kallisti: where does it mention that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754-2008 does mention infinities, barely.
14:30:09 <kallisti> oh..
14:31:24 <kallisti> I'm blind. :P
14:32:43 <kallisti> oerjan: I ask because I just got into an argument of the arbitrariness of 1/0 = infinity in Haskell
14:33:00 <kallisti> and I made things worse by saying 2 + 2 = 4 is arbitrary. :P
14:33:11 <kallisti> and they went into this whole "appeal by intuition" thing and I was just like "bluuuuuh what have I done"
14:36:15 <Taneb> Now monqy is level 23!
14:36:57 <kallisti> oerjan: oh I misinterpreted. It just specifies a division by zero exception.
14:37:07 <kallisti> apparently Haskell doesn't like exceptions.
14:37:09 <Taneb> I think that's all my Pokmon
14:37:59 <Taneb> Wait, Vorpal
14:38:30 <Taneb> Is still level 22
14:39:43 <oerjan> kallisti: i recall a discussion once where someone mentioned ghc would go haywire if you tried to change its floating point default settings
14:40:07 <oerjan> they're just too deeply assumed
14:41:04 <oerjan> for one thing, the underlying C mechanism is imperative and would conflict with haskell's purity assumptions.
14:43:00 <oerjan> well C or assembly
14:43:49 <kallisti> I do think the lack of an exception in those situations kind of undermines the assumption that division by zero is an invalid operation and should error out or something.
14:46:31 <oerjan> anyone who _assumes_ things about floating point without actually knowing gets what they deserve.
14:47:02 <kallisti> Haskell: a merciless language
14:47:11 <oerjan> this is not about haskell.
14:48:46 <kallisti> no, but it is about Haskell being merciful. :>
14:48:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Sorry, have to go kill a housemate.).
14:48:52 <kallisti> :> :: > : > : > : > :: > : > : > : :
15:06:41 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: gone for good).
15:26:51 <fizzie> Apparently my real name is henceforth "null Kallasjoki".
15:27:29 <Taneb> I once got booked into a hotel under the name of Random
15:29:08 <kallisti> derrik: we'll miss you
15:47:33 <itidus21> back
15:47:41 <Taneb> `welcome
15:47:43 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:47:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Were you ever front?
15:48:24 <itidus21> Taneb: just to follow up on my last statement, so if you were to stab such a needle into a regular "side" such as a chessboard, the needle would emerge somewhere else on the chessboard
15:48:29 <itidus21> rather than piercing the board
15:48:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you talking about Möbius strips?
15:48:55 <Taneb> Yes
15:48:59 <Taneb> And I'm Taneb
15:49:02 <Taneb> This will not do
15:49:06 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
15:49:10 <itidus21> oh..
15:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Möbius strips suck, the RPP is where it's at.
15:49:22 <itidus21> i didn't realize ngevd and taneb was the same person
15:49:37 <Ngevd> We're not
15:49:47 <Ngevd> I just use his computer sometimes
15:50:02 <itidus21> aha.
15:50:39 <itidus21> i don't have any understanding of the meaningful implications of what i'm saying outside of their immediate meaning
15:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb is Ngevd's imaginary twin.
15:52:12 <Ngevd> No, that's elliott
15:53:25 <itidus21> i kind of wish i had a tape measure like strip of paper for experimenting on the idea
15:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, he's your evil twin.
15:53:43 <itidus21> i suppose i can build 1
15:53:44 <Ngevd> Oh yeah
15:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (Your imaginary twin lives in Spellgammon.)
15:56:40 <Ngevd> When I was in the shower earlier today I began thinking about BytePusher
15:57:54 <Ngevd> I was thinking how I could make Hunt the Wumpus
15:58:15 <Ngevd> During that, I think I may have worked out a way to do rudimentary arithmetic
15:59:27 <Ngevd> And a PRNG
15:59:31 <Ngevd> ish
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16:04:30 <itidus21> so the mobius strip i created has 34 cells on it numbered 1 to 34, and there are correspondances 1 - 18, 2 - 19, 3 - 20, ..., 15 - 32, 16 - 33, 17 - 34
16:05:27 <Ngevd> zipWith (\a b -> (show a) ++ '-':(show b)) [1..17] [18..34]
16:05:31 <Ngevd> > zipWith (\a b -> (show a) ++ '-':(show b)) [1..17] [18..34]
16:05:32 <lambdabot> ["1-18","2-19","3-20","4-21","5-22","6-23","7-24","8-25","9-26","10-27","11...
16:06:08 <Ngevd> So, a links to (a + 17) mod 34
16:07:40 <kallisti> informative flow chart: http://www.lolhappens.com/4520/does-it-move/
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16:44:36 <kallisti> elliott: do you know anything about nondeterministic finite automata?
16:44:48 <kallisti> the formal definition says that the transition function is Q x E -> P(Q)
16:44:53 <Ngevd> Like Befunge-93?
16:45:01 <kallisti> does that mean that it's possible for the transition function to result in an empty set on a symbol state pair?
16:45:08 <kallisti> if so, what does that mean?
16:47:06 <kallisti> based on the rules for accepted inputs I'm guessing it means that the input is rejected
16:47:09 <kallisti> if it's possible.
16:47:38 <elliott> i would presume so
16:47:40 <elliott> ask oerjan
16:47:53 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Language list‎; 21:42 . . (+144) . . (Talk) (It'd be kinda like the group blog idea, but with more of a "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" vibe. And who didn't love playing that? :), http://aishwaryaraiporn1.typepad.com aishwarya rai porn,)
16:47:56 <kallisti> r[i+1] ∈ Δ(r[i], a[i+1]), for i = 0, ..., n−1
16:47:57 <elliott> well that's the best idea i ever heard of
16:48:13 <kallisti> if the delta function returns {} then obviously that condition for an accepted input is false.
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16:58:12 <hagb4rd> hey tetris lovers out there..if you liked the nes version you should go and try this beautigful weird retr-o-mod: http://firstpersontetris.com/
16:58:43 <hagb4rd> its kinda different..oyess
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16:59:51 <elliott> this is fun but not really first person
17:00:02 <elliott> first person would be much more confusing
17:01:12 <hagb4rd> well if thats not confusing enough for you dear elliott..try night mode :)
17:01:33 <elliott> heh, that's fun
17:01:52 <elliott> but first person tetris would designate one face of one block of the piece as the "eye"
17:01:57 <elliott> and you'd actually be looking down at the rest of the board
17:02:02 <elliott> or up or whatever
17:02:54 <hagb4rd> sure..guess its part of of the joke to suggest such expectations
17:02:57 <hagb4rd> however
17:03:13 <elliott> existential crisis night mode is good
17:03:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:04:00 <hagb4rd> aw thats new
17:04:44 <hagb4rd> yea.. the homecinema effect
17:09:40 <hagb4rd> lol existential crisis night mode
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17:10:20 <kallisti_> elliott: how would you rotate the piece and still know what the fuck is going on?
17:10:26 <elliott> badly
17:10:35 <kallisti_> maybe the eye is just floating below the block
17:10:42 <kallisti_> and you can still rotate it while looking down.
17:11:12 <itidus21> the fundamental problem with the idea of a first person tetris is the lack of an avatar
17:11:20 <kallisti_> ?
17:11:21 <kallisti_> what?
17:11:27 <itidus21> i guess you become the piece in this case?
17:11:33 <kallisti_> hmmm, oh I see what you mean.
17:11:39 <kallisti_> yes.
17:11:43 <elliott> just have reflections
17:11:48 <elliott> the pieces are really shiny and semi-translucent
17:11:51 <elliott> so you can see yourself in them
17:11:52 <elliott> also the walls
17:12:01 <kallisti_> lol
17:12:05 -!- kallisti_ has changed nick to kallisti.
17:12:15 <kallisti> elliott: you've lost your game designer's license.
17:12:23 <elliott> no this would be best
17:12:47 <kallisti> there's still the problem of being unable to look down at the board
17:12:50 <kallisti> if you're looking at the wall.
17:13:03 <elliott> that's why you rotate
17:13:03 <elliott> duh
17:13:11 <kallisti> that's...
17:13:12 <kallisti> no
17:13:18 <kallisti> that makes tetris way more difficult?
17:13:21 <kallisti> have you played tetris?
17:13:27 <elliott> well that's the fucking concept of http://firstpersontetris.com/
17:13:32 <elliott> so you can't complain about /that/ part
17:13:36 <hagb4rd> you wouldnt miss them after 3 days of insomnia
17:13:40 <elliott> and the point isn't to be easy it's to be cool
17:14:14 <hagb4rd> yea
17:14:18 <kallisti> wat
17:14:21 <hagb4rd> absoulutely
17:14:21 <kallisti> that's not first person at all.
17:14:40 <hagb4rd> ok
17:15:01 <hagb4rd> have you noticed santaclaus is not real? sry
17:16:31 <kallisti> whut
17:16:34 * kallisti existential crisis
17:16:46 <kallisti> I managed to clear ONE ROW in existential crisis mode.
17:16:50 <kallisti> also how is this an existential crisis?
17:17:29 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
17:18:31 * kallisti tough critic
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17:19:39 <elliott> <hagb4rd> have you noticed santaclaus is not real? sry
17:19:45 <elliott> hagb4rd: excuse me i am santa.... stop spreading lies
17:19:52 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:19:55 <hagb4rd> ! <33
17:20:02 <Ngevd> elliott, we already established that only one of us is real
17:20:09 <Ngevd> As I am clearly real, you must not be
17:20:18 <hagb4rd> finally
17:20:19 <elliott> you're obviously not real
17:20:22 <elliott> i'm santa.
17:20:25 <elliott> how can santa not be real, qed
17:20:26 <kallisti> elliott: does brainfuck have variables? discuss
17:20:34 <kallisti> I think it doesn't.
17:21:02 <elliott> yes, it has a great many of them
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17:21:04 <elliott> with no constant name
17:21:11 <hagb4rd> you're more then right..really.
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17:21:19 <kallisti> elliott: doesn't the definition of a variable require a symbolic name?
17:21:34 <elliott> depends what definition you're using!
17:22:15 <kallisti> sure.
17:22:53 <Ngevd> I would argue that it has precisely two variable
17:22:53 <Ngevd> s
17:23:07 <kallisti> not in the language
17:23:12 <Ngevd> The tape, and the thingy on the tape
17:23:14 <kallisti> well...
17:23:20 <Ngevd> Pointy thing
17:23:21 <kallisti> hmmm...
17:23:28 <kallisti> tape pointer and instruction pointer
17:23:49 <kallisti> it's hard to say whether that's part of the language or part of the implementation.
17:23:50 <Ngevd> Instruction pointer isn't a variable within the language
17:24:38 <kallisti> my definition of variable requires a symbolic name.. thus "variable" is not synonymous with "location in memory"
17:25:09 <Ngevd> Mine is "thing that is able to vary"
17:25:16 <kallisti> well...
17:25:21 <Ngevd> Which is pretty loose, I'll admit
17:25:23 <kallisti> that's my non-computer-science definition. :P
17:25:48 <kallisti> I'd say Haskell's use of the term variable can be a bit of a misnomer.
17:26:24 <kallisti> > let x = 2 in x
17:26:26 <lambdabot> 2
17:26:27 <kallisti> x is a constant there.
17:26:29 <Ngevd> Haskell does not have, to my knowledge, variables as I know them
17:26:46 <fizzie> Let's ask OED! "variable, adj. and n. ... B. n. ... b. Computing. A data item that can take on more than one value during or between programs and is stored in a particular designated area of memory; the area of memory itself; (also variable name) the name referring to such an item or location."
17:26:58 <elliott> Ngevd: Sure it does.
17:26:59 <kallisti> I would say "function parameter" is the "thing that is able to vary" in Haskell
17:27:01 <elliott> f x = x+2
17:27:05 <elliott> x can vary.
17:27:09 <kallisti> yes.
17:27:12 <Ngevd> Hmm
17:27:15 <elliott> "variable" is a mathematical term, after all; in x+2, x is a variable.
17:27:23 <elliott> If your definition of "variable" excludes the mathematical use, it's not a very good one.
17:27:33 <Ngevd> Man, if I knew about those earlier, I'd probably be better at Haskell
17:28:42 <kallisti> elliott: I suppose in most contexts Haskell's variables refer to function parameters.
17:28:50 <kallisti> and thus are able to vary as well.
17:28:53 <kallisti> so variable makes sense.
17:30:34 <elliott> Ngevd: Those what?
17:30:46 <elliott> <fizzie> Let's ask OED! "variable, adj. and n. ... B. n. ... b. Computing. A data item that can take on more than one value during or between programs and is stored in a particular designated area of memory; the area of memory itself; (also variable name) the name referring to such an item or location."
17:30:51 <elliott> fizzie: That's an exceptionally bad definition.
17:31:18 <Ngevd> elliott, the variables :P
17:31:23 <Ngevd> (hint: it's a joke)
17:31:32 <elliott> Ngevd: [LAUGH TRACK]
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17:50:17 <kallisti> what's so special about the master theorem that it gets to be called the master theorem?
17:51:02 <elliott> Because it's useful, one presumes
17:51:29 <copumpkin> does one presume?
17:51:36 <elliott> No.
17:51:36 <kallisti> I don't
17:51:37 <elliott> Only two presumes.
17:51:58 * kallisti is one.
17:52:21 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Star651
17:52:24 <elliott> what a beautiful biography
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17:56:50 <kallisti> elliott: huh, interesting, I only do server-side programming.
17:56:55 <kallisti> therefore, WE ARE NEMESIS
17:57:01 <elliott> i was not being serious
17:57:14 <kallisti> elliott: you... you weren't?
17:57:16 * kallisti shocked.
17:57:49 * kallisti is more an server-side offline tech person.
17:59:14 * kallisti hobbies: YAML programming, offline server-side ActionScript
18:04:43 <kallisti> elliott: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainbrain
18:04:54 <kallisti> I don't really get how this any different from actual brainfuck
18:05:12 <elliott> "Every brainbrain-program is a brainfuck-program which takes the source to be compiled as input, and outputs the compiled source (as brainfuck (or brainbrain) code)."
18:05:15 <elliott> Try reading?
18:05:28 <kallisti> I did
18:05:29 <kallisti> but uh...
18:05:35 <kallisti> brainfuck can do that too.
18:05:59 <elliott> ,[.,] is not a brainfuck compielr in brainfuck.
18:06:05 <kallisti> they're the same language. Perhaps that's why the "joke language" category is relevant?
18:06:07 <elliott> It is a brainfuck compiler in brainbrain, though.
18:06:16 <elliott> kallisti: No, it isn't, you're just stupid.
18:06:34 <kallisti> does the language /interpret/ the output as brainfuck?
18:06:37 <kallisti> that would make it somewhat different.
18:07:04 <elliott> Yes, obviously.
18:07:07 <kallisti> all it says is that it outputs a brainfuck program.
18:07:11 <kallisti> any brainfuck program can do that.
18:07:14 <kallisti> all brainfuck programs do that.
18:07:16 <kallisti> well
18:07:20 <kallisti> modulo balanced []
18:07:33 <elliott> Well, it doesn't have to interpret it at all.
18:07:46 <elliott> $ echo ',[.,]' >comp.bb
18:08:00 <elliott> $ echo '+...' | brainbrain-interpreter comp.bb
18:08:04 <elliott> Compiled to sdflkjsdf.
18:08:05 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:08:09 <elliott> $ file sdflkjsdf
18:08:11 <elliott> sdflkjsdf: ELF binary
18:08:14 <elliott> $ ./sdflkjsdf | cat -v
18:08:17 <elliott> whatever the code for three 1 bytes is
18:08:42 <kallisti> oh...
18:08:45 <kallisti> it outputs a /binary/
18:08:59 <elliott> I don't see why it's required to at all.
18:09:05 <elliott> sdflkjsdf could just as well be a Perl script.
18:10:08 <kallisti> I just... don't really understand what's happening that makes it different from brainfuck.
18:11:00 <elliott> Indeed not.
18:11:46 <kallisti> The simplest brainfuck compiler ever. (note that if this program is run using a brainfuck interpreter, it is a cat program)
18:11:51 <kallisti> but in brainfuck it becomes.... a brainfuck compiler?
18:12:28 <kallisti> er
18:12:30 <kallisti> brainbrain
18:14:29 <kallisti> echo $1 | brainfuck-interpreter | brainfuck-compiler
18:15:14 <kallisti> erm...
18:15:15 <kallisti> no. :P
18:17:35 <kallisti> elliott: but I'm guessing the difference is that brainbrain takes the output of your brainfuck program and compiles that into something.
18:18:06 <kallisti> which... I don't really think makes a difference at all.
18:19:05 <kallisti> elliott: wow you really have zero patience.
18:19:27 <elliott> kallisti: I have zero patience because I'm carefully being politely silent rather than telling you to stop pinging me about how you don't understand basic nesting?
18:19:59 <kallisti> elliott: so am I right or wrong about brainbrain?
18:20:32 <kallisti> I understand basic nesting, but not in the form of vaguely worded english such as "http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainbrain"
18:20:36 <kallisti> er
18:20:39 <elliott> I don't care, and I don't feel like trying to understand what you said.
18:20:43 <kallisti> "Every brainbrain-program is a brainfuck-program which takes the source to be compiled as input, and outputs the compiled source (as brainfuck (or brainbrain) code)."
18:21:09 <kallisti> this to me says "brainbrain is brainfuck"
18:21:17 <kallisti> because that describes any compiler written in brainfuck.
18:25:04 <kallisti> *any A-to-brainfuck compiler written in brainfuck
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18:28:59 <kallisti> pikhq_: Ngevd: hi can you explain what makes http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainbrain different from brainfuck
18:30:27 <elliott> kallisti: ,[+.,] is a brainbrain program to compile brainfuck-with-every-instruction-on-the-previous-ASCII-character.
18:30:45 <elliott> <brainfuck program to compile C to brainfuck> is a brainbrain program to compile C.
18:31:01 <elliott> What those programs compile /to/ in brainbrain is up to the brainbrain implementation.
18:31:19 <kallisti> right so then that's what I said a little while ago
18:31:52 <elliott> Whatever.
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18:32:27 <Ngevd> No brainbrain interpreters exist, however, numerous brainfuck interpreters exist
18:32:44 <Ngevd> What do I win?
18:33:00 <kallisti> ...it seems to me that uh...
18:33:06 <Ngevd> Wait hang onm
18:33:17 <Ngevd> The output is assumed to be code
18:33:25 <Phantom__Hoover> Ngevd, THAT SOUNDS LIKE BRICKBRAINING TALK
18:33:44 <Ngevd> kallisti started it
18:33:50 <kallisti> a brainbrain implementation would just output a bash script that plugs its input into a brainfuck interpreter that runs the brainbrain program, whose output is then the input of a brainfuck compiler.
18:33:59 <kallisti> that really doesn't sound like a different language to me.
18:34:06 <kallisti> just some... IO shenanigans.
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18:34:14 <Phantom__Hoover> Ngevd, TOUGH
18:34:39 <Phantom__Hoover> An intercontinental ballistic brick has been launched.
18:34:46 <elliott> kallisti: Yes, but we've already well-established that you have no idea how IO interacts with the definition of a language.
18:34:47 <Ngevd> Oh good, it'll miss me
18:34:53 <Ngevd> We're on the same continent
18:35:04 <kallisti> elliott: so then brainfuck-with-PSOX is not brainfuck?
18:35:27 <kallisti> or are you just agreeing while simultaneously calling me stupid?
18:35:30 <elliott> (define (this-is-an-interpreter-for-a-language-that-is-NOT-scheme expr) (eval (eval expr (scheme-report-environment 5)) (scheme-report-environment 5)))
18:38:28 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: left).
18:38:41 <Phantom__Hoover> Ngevd, it's going to go via Asia.
18:38:49 <kallisti> elliott: yes, because it changes the rules of evaluation.
18:38:58 <kallisti> brainbrain doesn't. it just adds an IO layer.
18:38:58 <Ngevd> Magic brick
18:39:09 <elliott> kallisti: It's impossible to express how disinterested I am in talking to you about this.
18:39:42 <kallisti> cool, so I guess I'll continue thinking I'm correct about that.
18:40:09 <elliott> That's fine, I already assume you're stupid.
18:41:17 * kallisti connects the output of a brainfuck program to a socket and CREATES A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.
18:43:02 <kallisti> I'll call it IRCfuck. you give an IRCfuck interpreter a brainfuck program and it outputs an IRC client.
18:46:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:50:47 <kallisti> elliott: "I am stupid. Therefore, everything I say is wrong by default and does not need to be refuted. QED"
18:50:54 <elliott> kallisti: Yes.
18:51:02 <kallisti> I think that's moronic logic. morogic....?
18:51:11 <elliott> Do you argue with Scientologists?
18:51:58 <kallisti> Not on a regular basis. But this isn't something where I simply put faith in an idea without reason,
18:52:17 <kallisti> if you supply an explanation, I may agree with it.
18:52:37 <elliott> You may. Heck, I'm sure that after some 2 hours you would.
18:52:48 <elliott> But (a) it would be tedious and painful and (b) I don't want to.
18:55:42 <kallisti> okay, but perhaps this is because of poor explanation?
18:56:01 <kallisti> you've given me every reason in the past to believe that input and output are irrelevant to programming languages.
18:56:03 <zzo38> itidus21 wrote "while a mobius strip is one-sided, one can still pierce it at any point with a needle, and stick a red clump on one end of the needle and a white clump on the other end"
18:56:27 <zzo38> I have said before, I think a mobius strip is not one-sided; it has two sides but both sides are the same side.
18:56:47 <elliott> kallisti: Why should I care what the reason is? It wouldn't change the other facts.
18:57:58 <kallisti> elliott: I'm just saying perhaps if you were more direct instead of dragging things out it wouldn't take 2 hours?
18:58:52 <elliott> Speaking of being dragged out, this metadiscussion is.
19:00:26 <zzo38> But is it taking 2 hours?
19:00:34 <elliott> Not any more it's not!
19:03:07 <kallisti> zzo38: before it was taking 2 hours, now it is not.
19:03:36 <kallisti> he probably used feather to do that.
19:03:42 <zzo38> It that because part of the time has already elapsed? Or because of different reason?
19:04:49 <kallisti> elliott: where the double-scheme interpreter changes the semantics of the language.. brainbrain does not.
19:04:57 <elliott> kallisti: Stop pinging me.
19:05:03 <kallisti> okay
19:06:45 -!- warg has joined.
19:09:13 <kallisti> similarly, is lambdabot's Haskell a separate language from Haskell-with-all-of-lambdabot's-language-extensions simply because it handles IO differently and imports a different Prelude?
19:09:20 <kallisti> I don't think it is.
19:10:12 <warg> i thin u r los
19:10:35 <kallisti> no u r los
19:10:53 <warg> i c
19:10:59 <elliott> warg: Hi Deathly.
19:11:16 <warg> sig heil spelliot
19:11:31 <elliott> fizzie: Cough.
19:11:34 <zzo38> Is it same person or someone on the same computer/router?
19:11:45 <warg> is it a person?
19:12:25 <warg> i just ate vegitarian chili
19:12:37 <elliott> zzo38: Well, it's either Deathly or Deathly's neighbour who is just as unintelligent, has the same terrible "edgy" sense of humour, who just happened to join here after him...
19:12:45 <warg> beef is vegitarian isn't it?
19:12:52 <warg> i mean, cows eat grass
19:13:27 <warg> oh, you are typing about me again
19:13:29 <warg> how sweet
19:13:30 <warg> <3
19:13:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:14:19 <kallisti> Programs that are executed directly on the hardware usually run several orders of magnitude faster than those that are interpreted in software.[citation needed]
19:14:35 <kallisti> I love citation needed on obvious statements.
19:14:45 <zzo38> elliott: O, OK that might be it
19:14:49 <kallisti> (not to say it doesn't need one)
19:14:59 <warg> lol
19:15:18 <zzo38> So probably it is same as Deathly.
19:15:23 <warg> what?
19:15:34 <warg> i was amused by that as well
19:20:29 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
19:21:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:27:41 -!- Klisz has joined.
19:28:17 -!- monqy has joined.
19:45:52 <warg> "Thank you for freeing me!"
19:45:55 <warg> stupid djinni
19:47:11 <monqy> hi
19:47:28 <warg> now i'm down to 1 magic lamp
19:48:00 <Ngevd> Should reuse them
19:48:16 <warg> what do you mean
19:48:44 <warg> i'd much rather have a hostile djinni than a tame one
19:48:51 <warg> at least then i can get xp
19:49:14 <zzo38> Then change them to hostile
19:49:38 <warg> i'm lawful
19:49:47 <warg> i dont want the alignment penalty either
19:49:58 <zzo38> Then too bad
19:50:06 <warg> i'll just abandon it and hope it turns hostile later
19:50:15 <Ngevd> TVTropes: "Inception is cyberpunk, except without the cyber and the punk"
19:51:40 <warg> is that a movie?
19:51:49 <Ngevd> Yes
19:51:54 <warg> never seen it
19:51:56 <warg> any good?
19:52:05 <Ngevd> It was annoyingly easy to understand, despite the hype surrounding it
19:52:36 <warg> well if it was made for americans it's easy to see why
19:52:45 <Ngevd> True
19:52:54 <warg> american movies are made for people with an IQ of 80 to enjoy
19:53:02 <Ngevd> Most of them
19:53:35 <elliott> warg: you sure are concerned about how much more intelligent than everyone else you are
19:54:09 <warg> I was in to matrix until neo became psychoelectic in real life and took out that robot
19:54:23 <warg> electric*
19:54:47 <Ngevd> Matrix 3 was confusing
19:54:54 <Ngevd> But I didn't see the second one?
19:55:03 <warg> i assumed he was in an enveloped virtual reality at that point and would migrate past it to a higher level of reality, but it never happened
19:55:39 <warg> the writers made him in to a psy-mancer
19:55:50 <Sgeo> I've only saw the sequels and the ending of the first
19:55:58 <Sgeo> Haven't seen the first in its entirety yet
19:56:14 <elliott> I...
19:56:21 <Phantom___Hoover> It's like
19:56:28 <Phantom___Hoover> anti-taste in films.
19:56:53 <warg> i suppose because he had neural implants it would be possible to create an EMP pulse with them, but the amount of energy it would have taken is beyond what his biological components could have created
19:56:54 <monqy> i only saw the beginning of the first
19:56:59 <Ngevd> I really need to see Primer
19:57:00 <warg> it ruined the movies for me
19:57:18 <warg> honestly i liked johnny numonic better
19:57:24 <MDude> When he took out the robot, was it remotely?
19:57:38 <Sgeo> Well, I think if the original Matrix could have been bought from the place where I bought the sequels, I would have bought it
19:57:48 <elliott> warg: Are you seriously saying a soft sci-fi film was ruined for you because it wasn't ~realistic~.
19:57:51 <warg> you should watch the 2nd one ngevd, without it it makes #3 confusing
19:58:05 <MDude> I only saw the first one.
19:58:12 <Ngevd> The first one was good
19:58:21 <kallisti> shadowrun is the best movie (note: not a movie)
19:58:21 <MDude> And some episodes of the cartoon.
19:58:41 <warg> i like the cyberpunk genre
19:58:52 <warg> i read gibson when i was a kid
19:59:00 <warg> i played shadowrun
19:59:00 <kallisti> warg: have you read the Difference Engine?
19:59:02 -!- derdon has joined.
19:59:03 <MDude> I would tihnk maybe it would be possible to use implats to wirelessly trick the robot into doing an EMP pulse on itself.
19:59:05 <Ngevd> I prefer Gaslamp Fantasy
19:59:11 <warg> i played neuromancer on my commodore 64
19:59:49 <Ngevd> Someone who consults nerves to tell the future?
19:59:52 <kallisti> shadowrun is cyberpunk fantasy.
20:00:22 <warg> maybe mdude, but in the movie, the pulse eminated from him, and it was partly within the visible spectrum
20:00:59 <warg> and I'm not familiar with Gaslamp
20:01:13 <elliott> warg: you realise the Matrix was intended to be allegorical?
20:01:23 <Ngevd> I say I like it, I really just read Girl Genius and look at pictures
20:01:24 <kallisti> it's like steampunk but with cyberpunk replaced with fantasy instead.
20:01:46 <kallisti> N "just looks at pictures" gevd
20:01:55 <Ngevd> And Girl Genius is closer to Clockpunk anyway
20:02:19 <warg> elliott: i'll just go back to fapping to Tank Girl then.
20:02:32 <monqy> gross
20:02:34 <monqy> dont do that
20:02:35 <monqy> do
20:02:36 <kallisti> clockpunk? that's a little new wave for me. I like magical post-nintendopunk fantasy
20:02:36 <monqy> other things
20:02:44 <kallisti> er
20:02:49 <kallisti> s/fantasy/realism/
20:03:08 <warg> If Final Fantasy was the final fantasy, why were there seven of them?
20:03:09 <monqy> other things to do: not telling us about what gross things you are doing
20:03:09 <warg> D:
20:03:24 <Phantom___Hoover> I'm a fan of quillpunk.
20:03:34 <warg> eh
20:03:45 <Ngevd> warg, Final Fantasy was so named because the company that was making it (Enix? Square?) was almost bankrupt.
20:03:50 <Ngevd> It was going to be their final game
20:04:00 <warg> monqy, 97% of post pubescent males masturbate. 3% are compulsive liars
20:04:13 <Ngevd> I'm the remaining 0%
20:04:13 <ais523> Ngevd: Square, I think
20:04:17 <itidus21> and a punk named hironobu sakaguchi decided to make some of the best video games ever to be known
20:04:28 <ais523> and there are way more than seven Final Fantasy games
20:04:36 <Ngevd> XIV at least
20:04:46 <warg> Ngevd is in the 100th percentile.
20:04:47 <monqy> warg: how many of them are annoying in a very boring way and should shut up
20:05:02 <monqy> or
20:05:06 <monqy> boring in an annoying way
20:05:06 <monqy> both?
20:05:10 <monqy> who knows, a true mystery
20:05:13 <elliott> warg: 100% of people who are warg are morons who make up statistics.
20:05:13 * kallisti faps to #esoteric logs yeaaaah
20:05:28 <monqy> ;_;
20:05:34 <warg> kallisti, can i poop in your butt baby?
20:05:41 <monqy> gross :0
20:05:46 <warg> it's really hard and consitipated
20:05:49 <kallisti> no I'm into knitting.
20:05:52 <warg> we could push it back and forth
20:05:54 <kallisti> so like, start working on a scarf.
20:05:55 <warg> BACK AND FORTH!
20:05:56 <elliott> ais523: yawn
20:06:05 <warg> oh
20:06:05 <Phantom___Hoover> I remember finding scatological jokes boring when I was 5.
20:06:15 <monqy> is it even a joke
20:06:23 <ais523> warg: I suspect you're lost, are you sure you're meant to be in this channel?
20:06:24 <Phantom___Hoover> Depends.
20:06:27 <ais523> (or this network, fwiw?)
20:06:32 <warg> i'm esoterical
20:06:38 <warg> i'm a programming language
20:06:40 <warg> so i'm here
20:06:41 <warg> ok?
20:06:51 <monqy> worst programming language
20:07:04 <warg> thats what she said
20:07:06 <elliott> Adventures in trying to come up with something coherent based on the text of `welcome: the warg story.
20:07:17 <monqy> worse than fuckfuck............
20:07:28 <ais523> what /is/ the worst programming language?
20:07:34 <kallisti> worse than poopfuck ha ha ha ha ha ha
20:07:36 <Phantom___Hoover> Is warg a Brainfuck derivative?
20:07:41 <warg> LOGO
20:07:45 <warg> hate it
20:07:51 <kallisti> logo isn't bad.
20:07:57 <ais523> nah, LOGO's quite a nice functional language, and has an output mechanism that's nice for teaching
20:08:12 <elliott> LOGO's just a perfectly good Lisp.
20:08:35 <warg> cobol gave me goosebumps
20:08:50 <Ngevd> The two best brainfuck derivatives are Ook!, which I believe was original at the time, and Bub, which has been useful for proving Muriel Turing-Complete
20:09:06 <Ngevd> That is opinion, not objective fact
20:09:10 <ais523> there are some nicely original BF derivatives; anyone remember Paintfuck?
20:09:18 * elliott does.
20:09:21 <warg> BF?
20:09:23 <warg> boyfriend?
20:09:27 <warg> bestfriend?
20:09:29 <warg> buttfuck?
20:09:30 <Ngevd> brainfuck
20:09:32 <warg> oh
20:09:41 <warg> nice
20:09:57 <warg> love them neural penetrations
20:10:00 <kallisti> warg learns about esoteric programming languages: the movie.
20:10:12 <monqy> warg actually doesn't learn about esoteric programming languages: the movie
20:10:30 <warg> warg is: the movie
20:10:40 <kallisti> monqy: no, it's a film that only ironic people understand.
20:10:41 <kallisti> ha ha.
20:10:44 <monqy> oh
20:10:45 -!- ais523 has set topic: Second to prove spontaneous human combustion wins | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:10:48 <ais523> there, that's a better topic
20:11:00 <kallisti> ais523: why second?
20:11:11 <ais523> because it's more interesting than first, and zeroth wouldn't make sense
20:11:14 <Ngevd> The first is too busy being on fire
20:11:18 -!- ais523 has set topic: Zeroth to prove spontaneous human combustion wins | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:11:28 <Klisz> yay, I win
20:11:50 <Ngevd> Have you proven spontaneuous human combustion, Klisz?
20:11:52 <warg> I like b********
20:12:00 <Klisz> Ngevd: Nope. Therefore, I am zeroth to prove it.
20:12:35 <Ngevd> Is 'a' the zeroth number?
20:12:53 <ais523> nah, *
20:13:07 <ais523> !c printf("%c",'0'-1);
20:13:13 <EgoBot> ​/
20:13:22 <ais523> err, I meant /, honest
20:13:29 <Ngevd> a is not a number. Therefore a is not the zeroth number
20:13:41 <Ngevd> Klisz has not proven spontaneous human combustion.
20:13:58 <Ngevd> Therefore Klisz is not the zeroth person to prove spontaneous human combustion.
20:14:21 <Klisz> bah, logic and reason
20:15:02 <fizzie> ^bf ,-.!0
20:15:03 <fungot> /
20:15:09 <fizzie> So short and elegurch.
20:15:23 <Ngevd> > chr (-1)
20:15:24 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.chr: bad argument: (-1)
20:15:31 <Ngevd> I lose...
20:16:19 <ais523> chr (-1) is EOF, obviously
20:16:36 <warg> if you divide the number of successful attempts to prove it, which is zero, by the number of attempts to prove it, which is undefined, and multiply by 100 you will have the percentage of successful proofs.
20:16:49 <monqy> what
20:17:03 <Ngevd> 0 divided by anything is 0
20:17:06 <warg> zero divided by undefined
20:17:08 <ais523> Ngevd: except itself
20:17:17 <ais523> or a negative number
20:17:21 <ais523> wait, no, just except itself
20:17:23 <ais523> 0/-1 is 0
20:17:27 <monqy> -0
20:17:29 <warg> zero divided by infinity is zero?
20:17:36 <Ngevd> Yup
20:17:37 <monqy> infinitey isnt a number dorke
20:17:43 <monqy> B)
20:17:48 <ais523> 0/+inf = NaN in floating point arithmetic
20:17:49 <warg> its a conceptual placeholder
20:17:52 <warg> like zero
20:17:52 <kallisti> actually in the extended real numbers infinity * 0 is undefined.
20:17:59 <ais523> but it's a bit weird as arithmetics go
20:17:59 <warg> zero is not a number
20:18:18 <monqy> great
20:18:35 <Ngevd> warg, you have just put mathematics back 600 years
20:18:41 <monqy> thanks a lot
20:18:45 <kallisti> warg: you and the ancient Greeks would get along quite well.
20:18:49 <elliott> warg: congratulations, you're as stupid as the greeks, but over a thousand years later!
20:18:55 <kallisti> elliott: haha jokesteal
20:18:58 <elliott> why am i feeding him
20:18:59 <elliott> sigh
20:19:00 <ais523> I thought the ancient greeks thought 1 wasn't a number either
20:19:01 <warg> welcometh to 1411 AD
20:19:19 <monqy> I like 0
20:19:20 <monqy> 1 too
20:19:22 <kallisti> ais523: that sounds right
20:19:23 <monqy> oh and 2
20:19:26 <warg> enjoyeth thy stay thou hence
20:19:29 <monqy> 3 is kind of lame though
20:19:38 <kallisti> monqy: if I enjoy n, then I enjoy n+1
20:19:40 <kallisti> I enjoy 0
20:19:43 <ais523> hmm, what person and tense is "welcome" in "welcome to #esoteric"
20:19:56 <Ngevd> Imperative
20:20:00 <warg> (x != 0)/0 = +-inf
20:20:04 <Ngevd> Present
20:20:13 <Ngevd> Possibly passive?
20:20:14 <elliott> kallisti: what kind of lameo believes in induction
20:20:21 <warg> also 8=D(0)+8
20:20:25 <kallisti> elliott: ...induction isn't a thing anymore in math?
20:20:28 <ais523> nah, I don't think it is the imperative, that would be in a sentence like "welcome kallisti to #esoteric or else"
20:20:32 <warg> and 8=D ~ ~ ~ (0)+8
20:20:37 <elliott> kallisti: not for the cool kids!
20:20:37 <monqy> warg shut up
20:20:47 <monqy> ~please~
20:20:51 <kallisti> elliott: what do they believe in? crazy constructivist hipsters.
20:21:01 <elliott> kallisti: having a good time
20:21:05 <warg> if i shut up then i can't say ok
20:21:09 <warg> and you cant say thankyou
20:21:09 <Ngevd> In this context, "welcome" can be replaced by "be welcomed"
20:21:17 <warg> and i cant say you're welcoem
20:21:25 <warg> it would be impolite to shut up
20:21:36 <zzo38> That is because you're not welcome
20:21:40 <monqy> do you deserve thanks
20:21:51 <warg> i feel so abused
20:21:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
20:21:54 <zzo38> Or at least, that is what they want you to think
20:21:57 <warg> i thought you loved me
20:21:59 <warg> ):
20:22:10 <Ngevd> Don't start a line with a close bracket!
20:22:15 <elliott> stop feeding him, guys
20:22:19 <warg> :c
20:22:20 <Ngevd> That upsets the bot I am sporadically writing!
20:22:22 <elliott> oh wait, ais523 opped, feed him all you want for the next five seconds :P
20:22:33 <ais523> I was trying to op earlier to change the topic
20:22:38 <ais523> but opped myself on #ais523 by mistake
20:22:41 <ais523> it's an easy mistake to make
20:22:46 <elliott> err, you can change the topic without being op here
20:22:49 <ais523> I know :)
20:22:51 <elliott> :D
20:23:07 <warg> it's the O to the P with the dough ray mee
20:23:12 <kallisti> :Y
20:23:56 <elliott> warg: Do you seriously think it's "dough ray mee".
20:24:26 <kallisti> elliott: it does make more sense than "do"
20:24:36 <kallisti> at least in english
20:24:38 <kallisti> pronunciation
20:24:41 <elliott> kallisti: Do you seriously think it's "do ray mee".
20:24:48 <kallisti> no it's do re mi
20:25:11 <kallisti> ?
20:25:32 <elliott> "[Douglas] Adams imagined, in key of humour" --Wikipedia article [[Do-Re-Mi]]
20:25:42 <elliott> Today's performance will be in the key of humour.
20:25:53 <Ngevd> Well, my latent subconcious reality warping to a supernatural level power is coming to fruition
20:25:58 <elliott> American viewers, please go next-door, for the performance in the key of humor.
20:26:03 <elliott> *next door
20:26:06 <warg> does anyone have a b******** interpretter?
20:26:19 <kallisti> warg: I have some sources.
20:26:23 <kallisti> I can hook you up
20:26:27 <warg> sweet
20:26:30 <kallisti> it's gonna cost you though.
20:26:34 <warg> being on topic keeps me from getting banned
20:26:35 <warg> :D
20:26:52 <kallisti> that logic doesn't apply to anyone else, actually.
20:27:04 <ais523> I don't think you've been on topic yet
20:27:20 <ais523> stringing together a sequence of words related to the topic != being on topic
20:27:22 <warg> i'm not the zeroth.
20:27:48 <warg> when you find the zeroth, you will know.
20:28:16 <warg> the oracle told me you would be the one to find the zeroth, and then fed me a cookie.
20:28:17 <kallisti> ais523: turing esoteric brainfuck unlambda garbage collection imperative indirection reference counting reification thread
20:28:27 <elliott> kallisti: fungot? is that you?
20:28:27 <fungot> elliott: more so than usual, t-rex? hey batman
20:28:30 <elliott> :D
20:28:43 <warg> kallisti: COMPILE ERROR
20:28:53 <kallisti> elliott: don't you remember? I'm the second markov bot.
20:29:10 <kallisti> vastly superior to fungot.
20:29:11 <fungot> kallisti: don't i know you from somewhere? but, i mean, a male, i can be one of those people are going to think you're a pedophile, and he's on a friggin'. fragile, species can survive their electrical onslaught
20:29:28 <kallisti> okay, maybe not.
20:31:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:32:26 <oerjan> <kallisti> based on the rules for accepted inputs I'm guessing it means that the input is rejected
20:32:30 <oerjan> yeah
20:32:41 <kallisti> yaaay
20:33:31 <oerjan> i'm not sure that you _need_ to allow that possibility, though.
20:34:13 <kallisti> well you do if the transition function is Q x E -> P(Q)
20:34:19 <kallisti> er
20:34:20 <kallisti> no
20:34:21 <kallisti> nevermind
20:34:26 <kallisti> no it's not necessary.
20:35:28 <oerjan> but e.g. for the sophic shifts that oklopol mentioned, it's the natural way to reject things, since there is no actual _end_ to the sequence and so no final state
20:36:06 <oerjan> (sophic shifts are basically regular languages generalized to infinite sequences)
20:36:14 <kallisti> ah okay.
20:37:20 <oerjan> i think there _might_ be a restriction on which FA's are allowed for that, from what oklopol said last time
20:39:00 <oerjan> i have a book on it somewhere deep in the closet, buried by the things of those housemates i still have to kill.
20:39:37 <elliott> oerjan: are you sure you don't live alone
20:39:42 <elliott> it's weird :|
20:39:44 <oerjan> elliott: not _yet_
20:39:48 <elliott> :D
20:41:54 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:42:53 <warg> forever alone.
20:43:17 <warg> what is FA?
20:43:29 <oerjan> finite state automaton
20:43:29 <warg> fat admirer?
20:43:33 <warg> oh
20:43:39 <warg> something else then
20:44:55 <oerjan> warg: quite fundamental computer science
20:45:10 <warg> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fa_attraction.svg
20:46:14 <warg> FA vectored
20:46:16 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
20:48:56 <kallisti> warg: the sharp drop on the lower median as the BMI increases represents the poser fat admirers.
20:48:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:49:57 <kallisti> also lol @ BMI being used as a valid metric for overweightness.
20:50:34 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:50:52 <oerjan> true fat admirers won't be satisfied until gravitational collapse
20:53:59 <oerjan> <Ngevd> > zipWith (\a b -> (show a) ++ '-':(show b)) [1..17] [18..34]
20:54:02 <oerjan> hm...
20:54:17 <oerjan> > zipWith (-) [1..17] [18..34::Expr]
20:54:19 <lambdabot> [1 - 18,2 - 19,3 - 20,4 - 21,5 - 22,6 - 23,7 - 24,8 - 25,9 - 26,10 - 27,11 ...
20:54:56 <kallisti> oerjan: shocking
20:55:00 <Sgeo> > x - x == 0
20:55:01 <lambdabot> False
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20:59:48 <kallisti> Sgeo: I think a simplereflect that acts more like integers/reals would be nice. but I'm not sure how feasible it is to perform complex reductions.
21:00:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:02:06 <elliott> kallisti: see: the entire field of CASes
21:02:38 <kallisti> elliott: by "feasible" I meant more like "feasible for me to implement quickly" :P
21:02:55 <elliott> then no.
21:03:53 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> An intercontinental ballistic brick has been launched.
21:04:08 <oerjan> Ngevd: you're lucky Phantom_Hoover doesn't know you're on the same continent
21:04:29 <Ngevd> Read about three more lines
21:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd already did that one and I pointed out my counterstrategy.
21:04:36 <oerjan> NEVER
21:04:46 <kallisti> Ngevd: oerjan is actually trapped in the past
21:04:54 <kallisti> Ngevd: so he's waiting for the conversation to unfold.
21:05:11 <oerjan> kallisti: depressingly enough, that thought has appeared to me before. (sense a pattern here?)
21:07:08 <oerjan> on 21 december 2012, a stray neutrino ray will be sent through the earth and hit in a particular spot in trondheim, norway, hurtling me 14 years into the past.
21:08:22 <zzo38> Is that the 2012 year predictions?
21:08:43 <oerjan> one of them.
21:08:49 <ais523> oerjan: will you be in trondheim, norway, at the time?
21:08:52 <oerjan> except of course, it already happened.
21:08:56 <ais523> or will it just be coincidence that the ray affects you?
21:09:06 <oerjan> ais523: well i'll be wherever the ray hits, obviously.
21:09:15 <zzo38> The only prediction that I am reasonably sure of is that the Mayan calendar will advance to
21:09:16 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I thought it might affect people somewhere it didn't hit
21:09:24 <oerjan> Y U OP
21:09:31 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
21:09:41 <ais523> oerjan: in the hope that certain people would be slightly better behaved
21:09:47 <oerjan> aha
21:11:17 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> Ngevd, it's going to go via Asia.
21:11:20 <zzo38> I have instance Monoid s => Extend (StateT s Identity) but is there a way to do it for any arbitrary comonad instead of only Identity comonad?
21:11:30 <oerjan> everything gets assembled in china these days.
21:15:38 * kallisti uploads his source files to chinese servers for assembly.
21:16:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Ping
21:16:07 <Sgeo> elliott, pong
21:16:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you have those Worms-on-Wine instructions I wrote some months ago
21:16:26 <elliott> I'm trying to geti t working on this machine :-P
21:16:26 * oerjan downloads the official red linux version of the files
21:16:30 <Sgeo> elliott, no, sorry
21:16:37 <Sgeo> I think there's something on the wiki, if that helps
21:16:39 <elliott> :''''(
21:16:47 <elliott> And yeah, I know, that's the guide I tried before writing mine, because it doesn't work.
21:16:50 <Sgeo> Oh
21:17:01 <oerjan> *red flag
21:22:07 <oerjan> <kallisti> clockpunk? that's a little new wave for me. I like magical post-nintendopunk fantasy <-- next, flint/obsidian punk
21:22:21 <oerjan> perhaps someone already did it
21:22:45 <elliott> aka minecraftpunk
21:23:07 <oerjan> hum
21:23:40 <itidus21> whats a clockpunk?
21:23:49 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm sure you can grep the logs for it?
21:24:33 <elliott> Sgeo: That's what I'm trying now, but I'm not sure I linked it in here.
21:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, Spades Slick.
21:27:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I suppose the Felt fit that much better.
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21:30:10 <oerjan> <ais523> 0/+inf = NaN in floating point arithmetic
21:30:17 <oerjan> > 0/(1/0) -- doubt it
21:30:21 <lambdabot> 0.0
21:32:52 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm, what person and tense is "welcome" in "welcome to #esoteric" <-- i think it's an adjectival phrase without a finite verb.
21:33:19 <oerjan> the norwegian is even clearer about using a participle there
21:34:25 <oerjan> while the english could be a lot of forms, infinitive, imperative or present not 3rd person
21:34:39 <oerjan> *of other forms as well
21:35:37 -!- hiato has joined.
21:35:45 <oerjan> hi ato
21:36:00 <hiato> oerjan: hi lo
21:36:22 <oerjan> long time no see
21:36:24 <hiato> huh, this place has expanded somewhat since last I was here
21:36:44 <hiato> indeed, too long. University does horrible things to certain folks
21:37:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure the number of _active_ members has increased
21:37:26 <elliott> hi hiato!
21:37:42 <hiato> oh, heh, ah well :P
21:37:47 <Ngevd> hiato...
21:37:51 <elliott> I tried to contract that but I just ended up with "hiato".
21:37:55 <hiato> elliott: :) Hello hello
21:37:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You remember hiato right???
21:38:05 <Ngevd> That name...
21:38:06 <hiato> elliott: :P
21:38:10 <Ngevd> I have never heard before
21:38:14 <Ngevd> Hello, anyway!
21:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato!
21:38:28 <itidus21> `log hiato
21:38:29 <hiato> Ngevd: I don't believe we've met, I used to be here a while back. Greetings
21:38:47 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, so many names of yore :]
21:38:57 <HackEgo> 2009-01-11.txt:16:09:04: <Hiato> meh, you're right..
21:39:02 <warg> Cancer eating flesh
21:39:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Phantom_Hoover OF YOURE.
21:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
21:39:14 <Ngevd> I am pretty much an alternate version of elliott
21:39:15 <warg> Gore being posted on /b/.
21:39:21 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Phantom_Hoover OF YOURE. <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
21:39:24 <itidus21> hi hiato.. im kind of new and im not actually a mathematician. i just sort of hang around
21:39:26 <HackEgo> 758) <Phantom_Hoover> Phantom_Hoover OF YOURE. <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
21:39:29 <warg> Smells of rotting leaves.
21:39:32 <hiato> Ngevd: lolwut
21:39:34 <elliott> hiato: Ngevd is Taneb who you also didn't know.
21:39:47 <elliott> You know me but I might have changed my nick since way back then?
21:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, 'not actually a mathematician' is the best description?
21:39:53 <oerjan> warg: you know, i think you have sort of got a warning about that stuff
21:39:57 <hiato> itidus21: fancy that, I too am not a mathematician. :)
21:40:00 <oerjan> consider this a second one.
21:40:02 <warg> it was a haiku
21:40:03 <elliott> I'm elliott, and I'm not actually a human.
21:40:07 <hiato> elliott: yeah, I can scarcely recall what it was
21:40:07 <warg> be nice
21:40:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like the simplicial complex nonexample of introductions.
21:40:13 <hiato> elliott: scarf?
21:40:19 <elliott> hiato: scarf is ais523
21:40:25 <elliott> I'm ehird or whatever my name of the week was
21:40:25 <hiato> elliott: oh, right, my bad
21:40:40 <hiato> elliott: no, no, I remember *you* just not all your nicks
21:40:41 <hiato> :P
21:40:48 <elliott> :D
21:41:02 <elliott> i've stayed on this one ever since i got it
21:41:19 <Ngevd> Yeah, on my first? second? day here, I found out that me and elliott live in the same comparatively small town
21:41:21 <hiato> hrmm, yeah, I remember ehird, and something else (now that you mention it)
21:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, don't exaggerate; you'd been here for like a week.
21:41:34 <hiato> Ngevd: what, really? Sheesh, fancy that.
21:41:45 <elliott> Ngevd: "Comparatively"?
21:41:46 <Ngevd> It was on my first or second day
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21:41:56 <elliott> Hexham is small by any measure unless you live in a village.
21:41:59 <hiato> Ngevd: first, second day
21:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but it has an ABBEY
21:42:14 <elliott> Ngevd: I don't think it was your first or second day.
21:42:14 <Ngevd> `pastelogs Taneb
21:42:19 <elliott> Maybe fourth day or so.
21:42:24 <fizzie> elliott: You had that thing, that one thing, that... that thing, what was that thing? 'alise'?
21:42:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.665
21:42:41 <hiato> fizzie: I seem to recall that too
21:42:53 <elliott> fizzie: I mentally read that as a rap.
21:42:58 <elliott> It was shit.
21:43:02 <fizzie> Everyone's always these five-character names.
21:43:14 <hiato> elliott: thing rhymes with thing, so it's nota ll that bad
21:43:20 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:43:25 <elliott> fizzi: Indeed.
21:43:55 -!- myndzi has joined.
21:44:43 <itidus21> `pastelogs itidus
21:44:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7452
21:45:16 <monqy> hi
21:45:42 <itidus21> weird. my own logs seem terribly weird
21:45:57 <oerjan> shocking!
21:46:06 <itidus21> lol
21:46:48 <itidus21> im not sure if everything in my log is true, but i believed it at the time
21:46:55 <hiato> Ngevd: I must say, I rather like your Brook lang. ... and that's about my compliment quota for this fine sunday
21:47:15 <elliott> Get back to hating things!
21:47:21 <elliott> It's what we do in here. All day long.
21:47:37 <Ngevd> hiato, challenge: prove (or disprove) it turing-complete
21:47:37 <itidus21> `log piece of junk
21:47:40 <elliott> We started out hating new esolangs, but there weren't enough of them to fill the day, so we branched out to hating everything in existence.
21:47:44 <HackEgo> 2011-12-11.txt:21:47:37: <itidus21> `log piece of junk
21:47:47 <Ngevd> `quote hiato
21:47:50 <HackEgo> No output.
21:47:59 <hiato> Ok, so how about I hate on ANSI C for a while? Or the fact that K&R in my country is probably worth more than a kidney. Ehh.
21:48:00 <itidus21> `log crappy
21:48:06 <HackEgo> 2009-08-18.txt:00:09:09: <oklokok> weird, since there's tons of crappy stuff
21:48:15 <Ngevd> `quote Taneb
21:48:18 <HackEgo> 463) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 469) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 470) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 477) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
21:48:20 <hiato> elliott: seems like that task may yet take some time to complete
21:48:23 <elliott> hiato: I'm down to hate C, but didn't you use /Delphi/ way back?
21:48:40 <Ngevd> `quote Ngevd
21:48:43 <HackEgo> 651) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 657) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" \ 660) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 662) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then
21:48:44 <hiato> elliott: Oh. Yes. Those days. I ... I try not to think about them too much.
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21:48:57 <Ngevd> I say a lot
21:48:58 <elliott> :D
21:49:02 <Ngevd> Of stipid things
21:49:09 <elliott> hiato: Were you around when fungot was?
21:49:10 <fungot> elliott: are you a person who uses phrases at incorrect times? but then what's more likely: that we're the only ones for cows would say, hello t-rex, what is the deal"
21:49:17 <hiato> elliott: Yessir
21:49:29 <elliott> !c printf("I got revamped\n");
21:49:32 <EgoBot> I got revamped
21:49:33 <hiato> and I was here to witness two people break it, I believe
21:49:40 <hiato> nice
21:49:43 <elliott> `run for i in 1 2 3; do echo "I'm new"; done
21:49:45 <HackEgo> I'm new \ I'm new \ I'm new
21:49:50 <hiato> but is EgoBot still in befunge9x?
21:50:07 <Ngevd> I tried to write a bot in Piet
21:50:13 <Ngevd> It got as far as joining the channel
21:50:36 <elliott> hiato: It never was.
21:50:39 <elliott> fungot is the funge one.
21:50:39 <fungot> elliott: and so: " probably not!" um i have nothing to declare that this is, like, a 50/ 50 mixture of both societal and biological self, all that gets us is a murky combination of influences, predisposition, anyways. the point is that i came, i'd have to throw away a good chunk of it for the days i've already lived.
21:50:40 <hiato> Ngevd: that is rather impressive. Did you code a custom I/O interface into the interp or redirect I/O or what?
21:50:46 <Ngevd> netcat
21:50:49 <elliott> EgoBot is the bunch-o'-esolangs one (now bunch-o'-languages in general).
21:50:57 <hiato> elliott: ah, my memory fails me then
21:51:01 <elliott> HackEgo runs arbitrary Linux commands.
21:51:04 <elliott> Oh, I forgot lambdabot!
21:51:05 <hiato> elliott: cool :D
21:51:11 <elliott> > text "I'm a very old bot but I only came here semi-recently."
21:51:12 <lambdabot> I'm a very old bot but I only came here semi-recently.
21:51:22 <elliott> (It runs Haskell, mostly.)
21:51:26 <hiato> nice :D
21:51:42 <elliott> There, now we've introduced the IMPORTANT channel members (the bots, of course).
21:51:54 <hiato> > filter (\x -> x `mod` 2 == 0) [1..10]
21:51:54 <Sgeo> Sweet Bro and Hello Jeff. Sweet Bro, and Hella Jeff. Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff. Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff.
21:51:56 <lambdabot> [2,4,6,8,10]
21:51:59 <hiato> :D
21:51:59 <monqy> Sgeo: hi
21:52:29 <elliott> hiato: So you went from Pascal to Haskell? :-)
21:52:49 <hiato> elliott: yep, made it all the way through a one letter change
21:52:55 <monqy> hascal
21:53:04 <hiato> and then through java and python to C and ASM
21:53:13 <elliott> hiato: I find your definition of "change" suspicious :P
21:53:17 <hiato> and other stuff along the way, but that's where I am now
21:53:21 <hiato> elliott: ;)
21:53:30 <elliott> Java :( Python :( C :( Assembly :(
21:53:33 <elliott> Chorus of frowns.
21:53:37 <monqy> :(
21:53:56 <hiato> whenever I tell people I like 'Haskell' they hear 'Pascal'. Curse you writherian dude (spelling pending)
21:54:06 <hiato> elliott: ASM & C are great, the rest, not so much
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21:54:18 <Sgeo> hiato, same here (about people hearing 'Pascal')
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21:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato, no, hate Curry for having such a weird first name.
21:54:37 <monqy> if you say haskell fast enough they won't have time to hear pascal
21:54:40 <elliott> hiato: x86 assembly certainly isn't great :P
21:54:48 <oerjan> bloody isp
21:54:51 <elliott> I hear ARM is quite nice though.
21:54:58 <hiato> elliott: for some definition of great, it is :P
21:55:06 <monqy> great enough
21:55:28 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: no, I reject your proposal and distribute my hate 100:0 Curry:Writher (whatever his name was)
21:55:42 <elliott> Wirth.
21:55:47 <hiato> write
21:55:50 <hiato> *right
21:55:54 <elliott> Rong.
21:55:59 <hiato> potato potato
21:56:16 <monqy> wpotato
21:56:31 <monqy> potatoe?
21:56:52 <hiato> doesn't Writher sound so much more capricious a fellow than Wirth?
21:57:09 <hiato> I think so. Ergo, Pascal was invented by Writher.
21:57:13 <elliott> Terminally so.
21:57:51 <hiato> I can even give you a proof by picture, if you so desire
21:57:51 <itidus21> so what would be interesting is to hear what dennis ritchie has to say about haskell
21:58:09 <elliott> dude
21:58:11 <elliott> he's dead.
21:58:11 <hiato> *had
21:58:18 <itidus21> he's probably talked about it
21:58:36 <elliott> i find that very unlikely
21:58:48 <elliott> functional programming in general, sure
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21:59:01 <hiato> well, he may have mentioned it in passing, but I doubt he talked specifically about haskell
21:59:30 <elliott> the opinions of most "famous" imperative programming people on functional programming tends to be uninteresting, anyway
21:59:50 <elliott> usually it comes down to "I prefer writing imperative code [+ probably 'I think people in general do']" because of inertia
21:59:56 <itidus21> elliott: but i would expect dennis ritchie to be different
22:00:12 <itidus21> but maybe it's a blind hope
22:01:09 -!- hiato has changed nick to op_4.
22:01:31 <op_4> \o/ and this nick was unregistered
22:01:40 <elliott> op_4 is a lot less pronouncable than hiato.
22:01:43 <fizzie> fi:paska == en:shit, which makes the "pascal" language the BUTT of some rather bad jokes.
22:01:47 <op_4> opfour?
22:01:59 <elliott> op_4: That misses the underscore!
22:02:02 <op_4> fizzie: :P
22:02:13 <op_4> opund er scorefour
22:02:47 <elliott> This is worse than when Taneb became Ngevd. :''(
22:02:52 * elliott weeps openly.
22:02:59 <Ngevd> That was Gregor's idea
22:03:06 <Ngevd> And I kept calling myself Taneb IRL
22:03:15 <monqy> gregor.......
22:03:18 <itidus21> digging around i discover: "Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language", Brian Kernighan's 1981 extended rant against Pascal.
22:03:19 <Ngevd> At least Ngevd is almost my actial name
22:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> This is worse than when Taneb became Ngevd. :''(
22:03:33 <Ngevd> *actual
22:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Just say it as it sounds, duh.
22:03:40 <elliott> itidus21: you want to know what Ritchie says about something but haven't even read that?
22:04:00 <elliott> Ngevd: Taneb is a better name than your actual name, you should change your name to Taneb.
22:04:02 <itidus21> yup
22:04:06 <op_4> Ngevd: what was the idea? Short of that, ssuggested pronounciation?
22:04:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I remember, that was my first exposure to Ritchie.
22:04:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (I learned Pascal first and I had this nagging sense that it was crap.)
22:04:44 <op_4> Ngevd: actual name? Wait, you have a ... life ... *and* a name?
22:05:08 <op_4> Phantom_Hoover: ditto
22:05:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Except I then learnt Python and CL within about a week.
22:05:41 <Ngevd> Ngevd is pronounced ng from thing, e from ten, ved from loved
22:06:22 <Ngevd> My initials are NGvD
22:06:31 <op_4> :S <-- that is what my face does when I try to say it
22:06:33 <op_4> it's not pretty
22:06:34 <Ngevd> I almost had an extra middle name, Elliott
22:06:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Learnt".
22:06:48 <Ngevd> Which would make me NGEvD
22:06:55 <Ngevd> Hence Ngevd
22:07:01 <op_4> aha
22:07:06 <op_4> yet more coincidences
22:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, perfectly cromulent.
22:07:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I was saying that you can't learn two languages in a week.
22:07:31 <elliott> You can't even learn one language in a week.
22:07:34 <Ngevd> My great-great grandmother was called Elliott
22:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
22:07:58 <op_4> I'd never considered that it could be a women's name
22:08:03 <Ngevd> No wait, one more great
22:08:07 <Ngevd> And it was a surname
22:08:11 <warg> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1323641144829.png
22:08:30 <warg> oops wrong channel
22:08:41 <warg> was supposed to be #wikipedia-en
22:08:42 <op_4> now that makes sense
22:12:27 <elliott> op_4: A name for multiple women?
22:12:37 <itidus21> elliott: just one of these mornings for me
22:13:01 <op_4> elliott: I admit defeat to the all too subtle rules of grammar
22:13:06 <op_4> correction?
22:13:11 <itidus21> it got creepy hunting ritchie quotes pretty quickly
22:13:13 <elliott> *woman's :P
22:13:47 <op_4> aha
22:13:51 <op_4> :P
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22:20:12 <itidus21> welcome back folks
22:20:49 <Ngevd> Wow, that's one big netsplite
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22:20:58 <elliott> -Martinp23- [Global Notice] Hi everyone. Tonight should be our final night of upgrades of ircd-seven for the time being. The servers affected today are card, asimov, and verne. There'll be large netsplits. If you're on a server which will restart, I'll send you a message in a moment. Enjoy the ride - duration about 30 mins! :)
22:21:03 <elliott> oh hm
22:21:07 <elliott> i guess it was a real netsplit
22:21:16 <elliott> since that wasn't 30 minutes
22:21:26 <elliott> oh but the upgrades are probably being spread out
22:21:27 <elliott> so yeah
22:21:29 <itidus21> :o
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22:23:30 <itidus21> so someone mentioned the wumpus before
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22:23:47 <Ngevd> Possibly me?
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22:27:16 <Vorpal> hm
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22:28:39 <kallisti> monqy: bye
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22:28:43 <monqy> kallisti: hi
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22:36:59 <op_4> 'nyway, I'm off. Cheers folks.
22:37:18 <Ngevd> Goodbye
22:37:22 <elliott> bye :)
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22:40:17 <elliott> huh where's oerjan gone
22:45:02 <itidus20> i'm afraid the netsplitter will be fully operational when your friends arrive
22:45:32 <elliott> :D
22:47:56 -!- deranged762 has joined.
22:48:07 <deranged762> hello?
22:48:25 <kallisti> deranged762: hi
22:48:46 <deranged762> hello, anyone feel like talking to me?
22:48:55 <itidus20> `welcome
22:48:58 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:49:24 <deranged762> ok, so ill start straight
22:49:27 <elliott> ais523: why does calloc take two parameters, again?
22:49:53 <deranged762> wait, is this about esoteric stuff or is this channel about computer language programming?
22:50:04 <kallisti> yes.
22:50:10 <deranged762> yes what
22:50:14 <itidus20> one of those .. lol
22:50:21 <deranged762> which one
22:50:27 <quintopia> the latter
22:50:30 <monqy> esoteric programming languages
22:50:35 <monqy> is that esoteric enough for you
22:50:35 <itidus20> well... you would have to be initiated to find that ou----
22:50:46 <deranged762> lol i need spiritual advise
22:50:48 <quintopia> dammit where's oerjan's pan when we need it
22:50:59 <deranged762> u should call this channel different ffs
22:50:59 * quintopia swings an empty hand at itidus
22:51:03 <elliott> deranged762: you're on the wrong network.
22:51:08 <elliott> this network is about computer stuff.
22:51:11 <elliott> the fault is your own entirely
22:51:19 <deranged762> i see that wheres the real esoteric stuff then
22:51:25 <elliott> nowhere
22:51:27 <monqy> are you calling us fake
22:51:28 <quintopia> well, we could tell you but we'd...
22:51:29 <deranged762> nowhere?
22:51:40 <elliott> there's a channel on here about it from two people that came here expecting that
22:51:40 <kallisti> elliott: I thought we had a backup channel for that?
22:51:45 <kallisti> oh.
22:51:45 <elliott> but (a) I can't remember what it's called
22:51:48 <elliott> and (b) there's only two people in it.
22:51:55 <kallisti> wasn't it like #spirituality or something ?
22:52:02 <deranged762> lol rly...
22:52:11 <zzo38> I don't know???
22:52:12 <elliott> i keep thinking it's #philosophy but I think there's a more respectable channel there
22:52:17 <monqy> #jesus
22:52:20 <elliott> lol
22:52:22 <elliott> yeah go to #jesus deranged762
22:52:23 <kallisti> deranged762: try.... quakenet or rizon or... EFNet? those are all pretty big IRC networks.
22:52:31 <zzo38> You could try a different network, it depend exactly what you wanted.
22:52:37 <elliott> kallisti: efnet's #esoteric is just one guy from that channel whose name I can't remember
22:52:42 <elliott> deranged762: the only recommendation I can have is to get better interests.
22:52:45 <elliott> *can give
22:52:55 <kallisti> like esoteric programming languages! lol yeaaaah
22:53:05 <deranged762> y the fuck would i go to a jesus channel fuck off dude
22:53:15 <quintopia> -.-
22:53:16 <kallisti> lol
22:53:18 <zzo38> deranged762: O, sorry
22:53:55 <elliott> zzo38: you didn't point deranged762 to #jesus :P
22:54:03 <quintopia> deranged762: suffice it to say, you have come to the wrong place. these are not the droids you're looking for.
22:54:09 <elliott> deranged762: btw you're unlikely to receive even cursory politeness if you're an ass to us
22:54:26 <deranged762> well i only react properly to ur harasment
22:54:29 <elliott> admittedly, you're probably going to be in this channel for another like 3 minutes maximum, so it doesn't matter much
22:54:34 <elliott> deranged762: nobody here has harrassed you.
22:54:38 <itidus20> i was a smartass
22:54:51 <elliott> we told you you were in the wrong place, I told you there was no better place we knew of, and monqy referenced an in-joke.
22:55:01 <deranged762> well u guys probably dont believe anything that cant be proved
22:55:10 <deranged762> its a fundamental matter
22:55:15 <kallisti> that's irrelevant though.
22:55:21 <kallisti> (but yes, most likely)
22:55:22 <elliott> one of our ops is a theist, I believe.
22:55:32 <kallisti> elliott: oh really?
22:55:37 <zzo38> deranged762: Not necessarily...... however some things cannot be proved how can you know anything? Some things you have to be axioms too
22:55:40 <elliott> kallisti: oerjan.
22:55:47 * kallisti am surprised
22:55:50 <quintopia> zzo38++
22:56:06 <elliott> deranged762: but yes, if you'd like some smart-ass naturalism, I'm available
22:56:31 <quintopia> you're available because no one wants you :P
22:56:39 <elliott> so true ;__;
22:56:40 <deranged762> well... yeah... nevermind, its just retarded to only believe things that can be proven
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22:56:54 <elliott> So what do you do, only believe things that can't be proven?
22:57:03 <monqy> both, elliott
22:57:03 <elliott> That's the best position I can think of.
22:57:04 <monqy> jeez
22:57:11 <elliott> monqy: Only believe things that can and cannot be proven?
22:57:12 <quintopia> i'm not retarded. i totally believe in the teapot
22:57:16 <quintopia> it's out there, man
22:57:24 <kallisti> quintopia: dude how do you KNOW?
22:57:30 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you mean the teapot that someone threw into orbit?
22:57:30 <monqy> elliott: only believe in everything
22:57:39 <deranged762> i mean, you can stay in your paradigmas as long as it suits you, in the dark ages, they burned witches, but that was alright, and the world was flat, too, thats fine, too
22:57:40 <elliott> monqy: but that... is believing... in nothing...
22:57:51 <elliott> deranged762: we don't burn anyone
22:57:52 <quintopia> kallisti: i saw the invisible pink unicorn having tea with FSM in my pineal gland last night
22:57:54 <elliott> we just laugh at them
22:57:59 <elliott> there's a big difference
22:58:02 <monqy> emotional burning
22:58:05 <elliott> but allow me to quote one who shares your viewpoints
22:58:08 <elliott> `quote matrix of solidity
22:58:11 <HackEgo> 299) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:58:22 <quintopia> ^
22:58:34 <monqy> who else was there, beedaweeda?
22:58:35 <elliott> i can assure you we enjoy it very, very much
22:58:43 <elliott> monqy: nah; I forget who though
22:58:54 <zzo38> deranged762: Well, yes, of course much depends what you are doing. Assuming God exists is not the proper way to do science. But science is not everything.
22:58:56 <itidus20> i remember the matrix of solidity being in the topic for a while
22:58:57 <elliott> deranged762: btw
22:59:02 <deranged762> well can u imagine there is a technology to propel ufos for example in a way that defys our known laws of physics?
22:59:03 <elliott> deranged762: you know who believed the world was flat?
22:59:07 <elliott> those who stuck to religion over scientific evidence
22:59:11 <kallisti> quintopia: it likely means that you that the one who must come will not actually do that and you should probably reconsider the path you're taking in your life.
22:59:15 <itidus20> `log matrix of solidity
22:59:20 <elliott> deranged762: then it was PROVED the world was round
22:59:21 <HackEgo> 2011-04-15.txt:14:54:17: <Gregor> God, it's like you lock yourSELF in a matrix of solidity.
22:59:22 <elliott> just saying!
22:59:30 <itidus20> `log matrix of solidity
22:59:35 <zzo38> But science is something. You can't ignore science.
22:59:36 <HackEgo> 2011-03-10.txt:21:17:08: <elliott> ENTER MY OCTAGON AND FACE MY MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
22:59:39 <elliott> there are of course people who believe the world is flat even today, because they discard the evidence, because they don't have a belief system based on evidence.
22:59:44 <elliott> like... like you, gosh!
22:59:52 <elliott> <deranged762> well can u imagine there is a technology to propel ufos for example in a way that defys our known laws of physics?
22:59:58 <elliott> deranged762: it is perfectly possible. do you have any evidence for it?
23:00:07 <deranged762> yes i have in my head
23:00:09 <quintopia> i read it in a sci-fi book once. that totes proves it.
23:00:27 <elliott> deranged762: Better tell us, then.
23:00:28 <zzo38> deranged762: Possibly; but we would require some better science experiment to figure out more accurate laws of physics, whether or not that is the case.
23:00:32 <deranged762> but you wont be able to believe it until youve seen it with ur own eyes
23:00:44 <elliott> deranged762: I don't trust my eyes.
23:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god what have I missed.
23:00:51 <kallisti> deranged762: I once had a similar experience under the effects of drugs.
23:00:53 <elliott> Plenty of people have seen things with their eyes that aren't true, it's called hallucination.
23:00:53 <deranged762> well i hope you all know that science is controlled and not free
23:00:57 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:00:59 <elliott> But if you'd like to tell us the evidence...
23:01:09 <elliott> deranged762: I can assure you that nobody is controlling you to stop you telling us the evidence you say you have.
23:01:15 <deranged762> well i can only tell you that i saw things that are impossible so to say
23:01:18 <elliott> Except for the fact that you don't have any.
23:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> deranged762, well of course, you don't want to have to sort whackjobs like you out from actual scientists.
23:01:44 <itidus20> deranged i can show you how to enjoy this room.. you can query the logs by using that apostrophe like thing under the tilde key and then log such as: `log and then the phrase you want to look for
23:01:48 <deranged762> you call me a whackjob?
23:01:53 <itidus20> `log whackjob
23:01:59 <HackEgo> 2011-12-11.txt:23:01:48: <deranged762> you call me a whackjob?
23:02:01 <elliott> deranged762: We are the scientific legion.
23:02:03 <itidus20> oops
23:02:09 <elliott> deranged762: We will systematically ensure your evidence never gets out.
23:02:12 <zzo38> deranged762: Yes you do need to do controlled scientific experiment, it is how it work
23:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> deranged762, it is a reasonable accolade, yes.
23:02:18 <elliott> deranged762: Tell us now so we can suppress it or you will never see the light of day again!
23:02:39 <deranged762> tell you what please?
23:02:49 <elliott> deranged762: Operatives are on the way to near Geislingen as we speak.
23:03:04 <elliott> deranged762: Disclose your evidence!
23:03:15 <deranged762> geislingen hahaha
23:03:23 <deranged762> ok nice "tracking"
23:03:26 <zzo38> If you don't disclose your evidence then what use is it
23:03:54 <elliott> deranged762: I said near Geislingen. We can't know your actual location until we see it with our own eyes.
23:04:08 <deranged762> well its fun to see how you are jumping on me to ridicule me
23:04:13 <elliott> We've had to look at every major town in Europe so we could believe in it.
23:04:16 <elliott> It took ages.
23:04:17 <deranged762> thats the usual reaction
23:04:17 <quintopia> it's fun for us too :)
23:04:35 <deranged762> yeah coz u are kind of retarded
23:04:38 * kallisti has been pretty civil so far.
23:04:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:04:44 <elliott> deranged762: Well, if this were #convince-morons-they're-morons, we'd probably be doing something else.
23:04:46 <kallisti> so has zzo38, mad props.
23:04:50 <elliott> But you guys are just so funny.
23:05:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <deranged762> thats the usual reaction
23:05:07 <quintopia> hey i have no problems with you, deranged. you believe funny things, but i won't extrapolate from that to your intelligence.
23:05:10 <monqy> I probably haven't been civil, what with that injoke reference
23:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> A better man than you would have learnt from this.
23:05:13 <elliott> deranged762: Also, if you were smart enough not to go looking on fucking freenode of all places, you'd again be less stupid, and we'd laugh at you less were we to come across you.
23:05:32 <zzo38> And if you wanted spiritual advise, you ought to be specific anyways.
23:05:32 <monqy> oops??
23:05:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Eh, being laughed at doesn't mean much. Being wrong is rather more important.
23:05:47 <elliott> <monqy> I probably haven't been civil, what with that injoke reference
23:05:51 <deranged762> well you can laugh about whatever retarded things you want to, fact is im here and talking to you
23:05:52 <elliott> monqy: you insulted him with the name of jesus!!!
23:06:02 <elliott> deranged762: Not for long, I don't expect.
23:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, when everyone you try to convince of your ideas laughs at you...
23:06:12 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:06:25 <itidus20> `log deranged
23:06:30 <quintopia> all of elliott's ideas are in-jokes. we're laughing with, not at him
23:06:31 <HackEgo> 2011-12-11.txt:23:02:12: <zzo38> deranged762: Yes you do need to do controlled scientific experiment, it is how it work
23:06:36 <itidus20> hmm
23:06:50 <itidus20> im just not having much luck with this
23:06:56 <kallisti> `quote luck
23:06:59 <HackEgo> 335) <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards" \ 742) <elliott> right: you didn't find out you were wrong, just right in a way we failed to consider. <elliott> if only every wrong person could be so lucky \ 747) <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer
23:07:00 <deranged762> some of you guys are just prove to me of how mind control works
23:07:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's perfectly possible to be right, and laughed at. I mean, you could dress up as a clown and try and convince people of something.
23:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's not very funny?
23:07:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The laughs are laughs of HORROR.
23:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> deranged762, well, if you want to talk about the Device, now...
23:08:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:08:03 <Phantom_Hoover> (Don't talk about the Device. Ever.)
23:08:11 <elliott> deranged762: You realise that talking about how sheep-like we are in a room where not a single person believes you or cares is basically argumentum ad masturbatum?
23:08:23 <elliott> (The best kind of masturbatum!)
23:08:53 <deranged762> do you realize how low attitude really is?
23:08:56 <Sgeo> Wait, what is deranged762 claiming?
23:08:58 <deranged762> *your
23:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, excuse me, please show me one mind control device that works on sheep?
23:09:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S A SECRET.
23:09:09 <elliott> Sgeo: UFOs, man!
23:09:12 <elliott> Sgeo: UFOs!
23:09:13 <deranged762> or how low it is trying to tell me how COOL you are
23:09:24 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: technically it's techniques not devices
23:09:25 <deranged762> i know that you dont know SHIT
23:09:32 <monqy> deranged762: do you know shit
23:09:36 <elliott> deranged762: I think you'll find that we've been solely focused on deprecating you, not aggrandising ourselves.
23:09:38 <monqy> deranged762: please, educate us about shit
23:09:39 <deranged762> i know some... shit
23:09:45 <elliott> And I'm a shitologist thank you very much.
23:09:48 <Sgeo> deranged762, what reasons do you have for thinking aliens exist?
23:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> deranged762, but precious little else.
23:09:58 <Sgeo> deranged762, I mean that in the sense "How did you learn about them?"
23:09:58 <elliott> It's one rung above ufology.
23:10:00 <monqy> Sgeo: we've been over this
23:10:00 <elliott> OH SNAPPPPPPP
23:10:07 <monqy> Sgeo: he has secret evidence
23:10:07 <deranged762> ufos are not related to aliens necessarily
23:10:07 <elliott> Sgeo: are you seriously trying to engage him
23:10:21 <deranged762> what makes you think they are?
23:10:23 <kallisti> Sgeo: "aliens exist" and "aliens exist and have made contact with humans" is two totally different things, btw
23:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least you can expand acronyms.
23:10:30 <Sgeo> kallisti, oh, true
23:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, once you dispense with the aliens you have nothing of any great interest whatsoever.
23:10:54 <elliott> deranged762 is actually talking about Unlawful Fucking Organisations.
23:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "There are these things, right? And they're flying? And we're not sure what they are."
23:11:02 <Sgeo> elliott, brothels?
23:11:05 <elliott> Sgeo: YES.
23:11:11 <elliott> I'VE SEEN THEM WITH MY OWN EYES, SGEO!!!
23:11:29 <deranged762> you see its a childish reaction
23:11:37 <monqy> we're all children
23:11:38 <deranged762> thats the only way you can handle this
23:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe if you're an English pansy.
23:11:42 <monqy> sorry deranged762
23:11:47 <elliott> deranged762: I'm actually going through an existential crisis right now.
23:11:50 <elliott> You can't see my tears but they're there.
23:11:53 <kallisti> elliott is well known for being childish. :>
23:12:01 <itidus20> `log existential
23:12:02 <elliott> kallisti: Give me a break, I'm 4 years old!
23:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
23:12:08 <HackEgo> 2006-07-25.txt:04:44:20: <ihope> And you'll have to avoid existential types involving typeclasses even more.
23:12:09 <deranged762> its ok, its simply a sign of immaturity
23:12:10 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
23:12:13 <HackEgo> 759) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
23:12:20 <itidus20> `log existential crisis
23:12:26 <HackEgo> 2011-12-11.txt:23:12:20: <itidus20> `log existential crisis
23:12:34 <itidus20> halp
23:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> `log existential cris
23:12:44 <HackEgo> 2011-08-16.txt:03:30:07: <coppro> itidus20: if you had an existence problem, how can you be having an existential crisis?
23:13:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: all existential crises are in some way related to itidus20
23:13:16 <kallisti> deranged762: unfortunately I've found that elliott's lack of maturity has nothing to do with him being wrong most of the time.
23:13:22 -!- aloril has joined.
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23:13:43 <elliott> kallisti: I'm actually wrong all of the time.
23:13:46 <itidus20> `log existential crisis
23:13:52 <HackEgo> 2011-12-11.txt:23:11:47: <elliott> deranged762: I'm actually going through an existential crisis right now.
23:14:01 <itidus20> `log existential crisis
23:14:01 <kallisti> elliott: no, only when you're arguing with me, obviously.
23:14:04 <kallisti> because I'm always right. :>
23:14:07 <quintopia> elliott: could you rephrase that in a logic system that is not vulnerable to the liar paradox?
23:14:08 <HackEgo> 2009-10-22.txt:04:33:20: <Oranjer> /I feel like I would enjoy/ a movie that ends in an existential crisis, if indeed such a movie exists
23:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> `log existential crises
23:14:18 <HackEgo> 2011-07-10.txt:19:22:05: <HackEgo> 402) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I went through a whole series of existential crises when I was 8 or so.
23:14:20 <elliott> kallisti: For about one day until someone else explains in tedious detail why you're wrong.
23:14:29 <elliott> quintopia: Paraconsistent logics, man!
23:14:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could have just `quoted that.
23:14:54 <Phantom_Hoover> But this is more SPONTANEOUS
23:15:11 <quintopia> combustion?
23:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I win!
23:15:42 <quintopia> nope. you're too late. you're the first.
23:16:00 <elliott> The only way anyone can become the zeroth to prove spontaneous human combustion is by the counter overflowing.
23:16:10 <elliott> But it's signed, so you'll have to go all the way back to zero again.
23:16:15 <quintopia> how many bits?
23:16:18 <deranged762> well guys, thank you for your time and your insight, i enjoyed it
23:16:22 <elliott> Me too.
23:16:25 <quintopia> bye deranged762
23:16:28 <elliott> quintopia: 762.
23:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, can I make *other* people spontaneously combust?
23:16:34 <elliott> In honour of our friend and colleague, deranged762.
23:16:37 <deranged762> hfgl
23:16:39 <elliott> RIP 2011-2011
23:16:40 <itidus20> if i was more intelligent i wouldn't fall back on the logfile system
23:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Thanks, deranged762.
23:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Theranged762.
23:16:49 -!- deranged762 has quit (Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/).
23:16:50 <elliott> deranged762: We love you! Godspeed.
23:16:52 <elliott> :')
23:16:59 <olsner> :)
23:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> )
23:17:08 <quintopia>
23:17:16 <kallisti> elliott: also note that I'm still right about brainbrain not actually being a different language. :)
23:17:20 <kallisti> for the record
23:17:26 <Phantom_Hoover> How is that a shortening of ')', quintopia.
23:17:47 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: time dilation
23:17:53 <quintopia> lorentz contraction
23:18:00 <monqy> I'd use but +c :(
23:18:02 <elliott> kallisti: Not true, because you have no idea what constitutes an "IO thing"; you would consider brainfuck the same language as "cat" because "cat | brainfuck" is a brainfuck interpreter.
23:18:19 <kallisti> not at all.
23:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear, not another episode of "kallisti doesn't get theoretical CS".
23:18:44 <kallisti> in fact cat | brainfuck is a brainfuck interpreter for similar reasons to brainbrain
23:19:13 <elliott> kallisti: The thing is that, when presented with something that your worldview produces a contradictory answer to, you just claim it doesn't do that at all, and continue being an idiot.
23:19:29 <kallisti> how is that contradictory to my viewpoint at all?
23:19:35 <elliott> And then you ask that.
23:19:57 <kallisti> but no really. no meta plz.
23:20:14 <elliott> The meta is an extended way of saying "shut up, argumentation with you is futile".
23:20:33 <kallisti> I'm saying brainbrain is a brainfuck interpreter connected to other processing elements in a pipeline. You are arguing in the opposite direction.
23:21:16 <elliott> kallisti: For a start you're making arguments about a language based on the fact that "you can implement it like X", which is complete bullshit.
23:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Matrix of solidity is quote number 299???
23:22:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Quotes have grown really quickly.
23:22:10 <elliott> And a LOT of early ones were deleted.
23:22:17 <elliott> `pastelogs matrix of solidity
23:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> On that topic!
23:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:22:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16559
23:22:34 <HackEgo> 711) <Phantom__Hoover> Minecraft has made me view all trees as ridiculously slender.
23:22:40 <elliott> 2011-03-10.txt:22:22:29: <HackEgo> 330) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
23:22:42 <elliott> Original quote number.
23:22:45 <kallisti> not at all, it /is/ brainfuck. it behaves exactly the same way when executed. the difference being that the output is given special meaning to other programs that are in a pipeline with it. This is basically why PSOX does not make brainfuck a new language.
23:22:54 <HackEgo> 95) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future
23:22:54 <HackEgo> 92) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
23:22:54 <HackEgo> 373) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
23:22:54 <HackEgo> 421) <olsner> you should know better than making þs out of wedlock
23:23:11 <elliott> kallisti: brainfuck+PSOX is manifestly its own language considered as a single unit.
23:23:29 <elliott> kallisti: Lots and LOTS of languages are "giving the output of <another language> special meaning".
23:23:36 <elliott> To reiterate, brainfuck is just giving cat special meaning.
23:24:16 <elliott> Basically what you're saying is "bf+PSOX would be a different language iff PSOX were TC".
23:24:22 <kallisti> no.
23:24:26 <elliott> "cat | bf" vs. "bf | psox".
23:24:36 <elliott> There is no difference other than the fact that PSOX is sub-TC.
23:24:43 <elliott> (Also, PSOX changes input semantics too.)
23:24:43 <tswett> Eh, I think I'd say that Brainfuck and Brainbrain are different languages that work very, very similarly.
23:24:46 <kallisti> I was under the impression that how the output of a language is treated has nothing to do with the language.
23:24:52 <itidus20> its fine so long as it doesn't enter the courtroom
23:25:02 <elliott> kallisti: You're just hopelessly confused.
23:25:05 * elliott gives up again.
23:25:25 <itidus20> oracle owns the rights to brainfuck, google owns the rights to brainbrain
23:25:26 <itidus20> :D
23:25:45 <itidus20> let the fun begin
23:26:03 <tswett> Of course, it all depends on what you mean by "language". If by "language", you mean "function from input to output", then they're different languages, since the same input can produce different output.
23:26:17 <tswett> But if by "language" you mean... something else, then they may be the same language.
23:26:57 <elliott> kallisti: Also, you've been wrong literally every single time you've had an extended "lol I'm right about <CS thing>" in here, so you should really consider being more humble about your confusion by default.
23:27:05 <kallisti> a set of strings defined by a formal language that has associated semantics?
23:27:18 <kallisti> er
23:27:18 <elliott> It mostly just serves to rile people up who are trying to help explain why you are wrong.
23:27:19 <kallisti> formal grammar
23:27:48 <tswett> kallisti: so, the "language" is simply the set of all valid inputs, and the semantics are separate from the language?
23:27:49 <kallisti> elliott: I have in no way attempted to flaunt some perceived intellectual superiority
23:28:08 <kallisti> tswett: er, no, input isn't part of that definition.
23:28:29 <kallisti> the "set of strings" is program strings
23:28:37 <elliott> kallisti: No, but your first reaction to someone trying to explain why you're completely wrong is to attempt to debate them (mostly by reiterating your position over and over again) rather than trying to reach an understanding about why you're wrong.
23:28:38 <kallisti> [++] is part of the brainfuck set but ][ is not
23:28:58 <kallisti> elliott: it is my hope that a debate will lead to further understanding? usually it doesn't though.
23:29:07 <elliott> kallisti: Yes, that's because you go about it terribly.
23:29:12 <tswett> kallisti: okay. So are you saying that it's the set that is the language, not the behavior of the strings in the set?
23:29:27 <kallisti> tswett: the semantics are also part of the language.
23:29:33 <kallisti> brainbrain and brainfuck have /identical/ semantics.
23:29:33 <elliott> Eventually someone has to decompose every single thing underlying what you're saying and go through it step by step repeatedly until you understand, which could be greatly optimised if you weren't so stubborn.
23:29:42 <monqy> but brainbrain and brainfuck have very different semantics.....................
23:29:51 <elliott> !bf_txtgen ,[.,]
23:29:56 <EgoBot> ​56 +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+. [560]
23:29:59 <elliott> kallisti: That brainfuck program prints out ",[.,]".
23:30:12 <elliott> kallisti: That brainbrain program outputs a program which copies stdin to stdout.
23:30:27 <elliott> brainbrain is really a family of languages, parameterised on output language.
23:30:51 <elliott> But for every brainbrain(L) where ,[.,] is not a cat program in L, that brainbrain program does something different to that brainfuck program.
23:30:53 <tswett> kallisti: I guess I fail to see how, then, since ,[.,] does one thing in Brainfuck and a different thing in Brainbrain.
23:31:06 <elliott> Similarly, the language identical to brainfuck except where "." outputs the /previous/ ASCII character is not the same language.
23:31:13 <elliott> Yes, you can implement it with a trivial postprocessing stage on top of a BF interpreter.
23:31:17 <elliott> That is completely irrelevant.
23:31:34 <tswett> kallisti: I don't know where to draw the line between semantics and post-processing.
23:31:44 <kallisti> elliott: hmmm, okay that makes sense.
23:32:09 <elliott> I think what we're learning here is just that when we thought kallisti understood why I/O isn't relevant to Turing completeness, we were wrong.
23:32:36 <kallisti> elliott: this to me suggests that IO /is/ relevant to the semantics of a language.
23:32:52 <elliott> Of course it is, since programs are generally a function from input to output.
23:33:12 <elliott> Again, what we're learning is that you didn't take the right thing away from that other tedious session.
23:33:20 <elliott> I don't feel qualified to try and re-explain it, though.
23:33:26 <kallisti> no I understand.
23:33:38 <elliott> That's what you always say.
23:34:06 <tswett> Hm, I guess I can imagine thinking of a language's semantics as being separate from its I/O capabilities. It sounds difficult, though.
23:35:14 <elliott> tswett: I think you'd essentially have to take the semantics modulo any function you could apply to input or output, which would let you say "every language has no IO facilities apart from halting/not halting".
23:35:18 <itidus20> ok an analogy has occured to me
23:35:55 <kallisti> elliott: I basically was thinking of turing completeness and language semantics in the same way with regards to IO being relevant/irrelevant to them.
23:35:58 <itidus20> i suppose that the core of the language is akin to some dusty paths.. and the I/O is akin to towns
23:36:12 <itidus20> and so.. you link the towns together with these dusty paths
23:36:15 <quintopia> i have a question about brainbrain because the wiki description is confusing me. Is every brainbrain program semantically equivalent to the same IO function?
23:36:37 <itidus20> important point is the paths are dusty and were laid pre-ashphelt
23:36:46 <itidus20> or not laid at all
23:36:53 <kallisti> itidus20: this analogy is terrible.
23:36:56 <kallisti> by the way.
23:37:57 <quintopia> elliott: is there any brainbrain program that behaves differently from the brainfuck program ,[.,]?
23:38:07 <itidus20> thats just because im not very good at abstract
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23:38:15 <quintopia> oerjan
23:38:18 <quintopia> there you are
23:38:36 <kallisti> elliott: but basically with the argument I was making, any Turing equivalent language would be considered "the same language"
23:38:40 <elliott> quintopia: um, yes
23:38:45 <oerjan> quintopia: wow, you're right!
23:38:50 <kallisti> elliott: because they all do the same thing computationally.
23:38:51 <elliott> quintopia: +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+. takes no input and produces a cat program
23:38:54 <elliott> (compiled)
23:39:05 <elliott> quintopia: ,[.,] takes input as a brainfuck program and produces that program (compiled)
23:39:06 <elliott> (in any language)
23:39:14 <elliott> kallisti: yes.
23:39:27 <quintopia> elliott: then i really don't understand what brainbrain is :/
23:39:28 <itidus20> Every brainbrain-program is a brainfuck-program (this could sure be taken out of context :-P )
23:39:48 <quintopia> oh
23:39:50 <elliott> quintopia: brainbrain(p, input) = compile_brainfuck_to_L(brainfuck(p, input))
23:39:52 <elliott> for some L
23:39:52 <quintopia> wait i think i see
23:40:00 <elliott> kallisti: they are all of the same computational class (as was relevant before) but not the same language. right.
23:41:22 <kallisti> elliott: I guess I accidentally took IO being irrelevant to Turing completeness to also mean that it was also irrelevant to other fundamental aspects of languages.
23:41:32 <kallisti> oops.
23:42:02 <elliott> are you saying that you were perhaps... wrong again
23:42:11 <kallisti> -gasp- yes
23:42:13 <kallisti> wow amazing.
23:42:16 <elliott> shocking.
23:42:22 <kallisti> elliott: the thing about me is that
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23:42:26 <kallisti> I am not afraid to admit I am wrong
23:42:28 <kallisti> once I realize it.
23:42:51 <elliott> yes. you just make sure to be as dunning-kruger as possible before that happens
23:43:06 <kallisti> until then, I will be pretty stubborn I guess.
23:43:31 <kallisti> next time I'll act all humble and inferior when I talk about things, to goad someone's ego into providing a good explanation.
23:43:52 <elliott> it's definitely about ego
23:44:07 <elliott> the reason we were jerks to that moron who just came in? ego
23:46:29 <elliott> oerjan: btw i think the n-cursor zipper thing can be a _lot_ simpler
23:47:17 <kallisti> elliott: I agree.
23:47:28 <oerjan> darn i _knew_ the connection lesses previously were the universe's way of telling me not to be here.
23:47:32 <oerjan> *losses
23:47:34 <elliott> :D
23:47:39 <elliott> no i figured it out
23:47:40 <elliott> ALL
23:47:40 <elliott> BY
23:47:41 <elliott> MYSELF
23:47:43 <elliott> ur too dum to understand it
23:47:45 <oerjan> whew
23:48:06 <kallisti> elliott: I still feel that the approach I worked out would be pretty adequate.
23:48:17 <elliott> kallisti: as i recall yours didn't work at all.
23:48:17 <kallisti> and would also efficiently calculate things like subsequences between two cursors.
23:48:45 <kallisti> sure it does.
23:48:59 <kallisti> I just didn't explain it very well.
23:49:35 <kallisti> I remember providing a poor explanation for how two cursors cross paths.
23:49:47 <elliott> oerjan: i think one thing that simplifies it a lot is that the tree has the same depth everywhere...
23:49:55 <elliott> that is,
23:49:57 <elliott> *
23:49:57 <elliott> / \
23:49:57 <elliott> * *
23:49:57 <elliott> / \ / \
23:49:57 <elliott> 1 2 3 *
23:49:59 <elliott> / \
23:50:01 <elliott> 4 5
23:50:03 <elliott> isn't possible
23:50:08 <elliott> (talking about binary trees for now since quadtrees are just the same...)
23:50:21 <elliott> because the space is indexed by two 32-bit coordinates
23:50:31 <elliott> so I don't see how that would be possible (if you take it as just one 32-bit coordinate, say)
23:51:31 <elliott> oerjan: (pls validate this assumption :P)
23:51:31 <kallisti> elliott: the most inefficient thing would adding or removing cursors, but shifting and reading are fast.
23:51:57 <elliott> kallisti: you will have to present your scheme in a way that doesn't involve you proposing a completely broken one and then saying "oh just add some redirection things so it works :) :) :)"
23:52:34 <oerjan> well any 2^n * 2^n field will naturally give a full tree of depth n
23:52:40 <kallisti> well essentially each cursor works like an individual zipper on its subsequences
23:52:52 <kallisti> until one subsequence is empty
23:52:55 <kallisti> and tried to shift that direction
23:53:25 <oerjan> unless you choose a bad alignment on purpose
23:54:21 <elliott> oerjan: 2^n too, surely
23:54:23 <elliott> if you do it as a binary tree
23:54:26 <elliott> oerjan: right. so the thing is that things are simplified a _lot_ since funge-98 is based around bits :P
23:54:39 <oerjan> well yes for binary
23:54:50 <elliott> oerjan: because you never, e.g. focus a branch whose neighbouring branch is a branch itself
23:54:59 <elliott> where the neighbouring tree of 1 in Branch 1 2 is 2
23:55:02 <elliott> *whose neighbouring tree
23:55:03 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
23:55:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:55:04 <elliott> *focus a tree
23:55:53 <kallisti> when the direction you're trying to shift is empty, you swap subsequences with the neighboring cursor.
23:56:07 <oerjan> elliott: this is sort of what the cursors with typed levels were about previously
23:56:23 <oerjan> using that restriction
23:56:30 <elliott> oerjan: well ok. i can't help but feel you overcomplicated things a little :P
23:56:39 <oerjan> NEVAR
23:56:41 <kallisti> elliott: does that make sense?
23:56:54 <elliott> kallisti: no, you haven't explained how to have out-of-order cursors
23:56:57 <kallisti> it works fine for shifting and reading and writing, but I haven't thought much about adding cursors.
23:57:13 <kallisti> elliott: out-of-order in what way?
23:57:17 <kallisti> oh
23:57:17 <kallisti> well
23:57:24 <oerjan> food ->
23:58:24 <kallisti> elliott: I guess you just associate a value with each cursor and then do a linear search... you could also use a map for that if you don't mind a some extra memory overhead.
23:58:48 <elliott> kallisti: yay, you did exactly what i said you couldn't (propose a broken solution and then just go "oh well mumble mumble redirections")
23:59:02 <kallisti> broken in what way?
23:59:37 <elliott> <elliott> kallisti: no, you haven't explained how to have out-of-order cursors
23:59:53 <kallisti> I just did.
23:59:55 <kallisti> >_>
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