< 1323907695 243595 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl %h = (1,2); print ref \($h{1}) < 1323907695 760707 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCALAR < 1323907724 553958 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl sub test { 1 } %h = (1,\test); print ref \($h{1}) < 1323907725 175164 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :REF < 1323907803 658388 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl sub test { 1 } %h = (1,\test); undef ${\$h{1}}; print $h{1} < 1323907809 104949 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew. sanity. < 1323907885 654210 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl voodoo is tiring. :P < 1323907945 894551 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh, I'm using a nested loop. I better rewrite it with gotos and labels. < 1323909282 435700 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: clearly you mean comefroms. hth. < 1323909491 962838 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323910514 830171 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl @a = (1,2,3,4); $b = \@a; @c = @$b; $d = \($c[$#c]); $$d = 3; print @$b < 1323910515 441431 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234 < 1323910527 292768 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :tricky. tricky. < 1323912032 583120 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :When a DVD is recording and a VHS is playing at the same time, without using the copying feature, the on-screen display is different and component video out doesn't work and a few other differences. < 1323912085 945241 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It also supports recording on VHS and play DVD at the same time, and recording on VHS or DVD and playing a file on SD card or USB. But you cannot record on two drives at the same time.) < 1323913027 403574 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 8 million km/h -> c < 1323913038 436544 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conformance error \ Left side is: 1.2073523605465162560e+43 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Right side is: 299792458 m s^-1 (velocity) \ Suggestion: multiply left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions. < 1323913085 894232 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 8000000 km/h -> c < 1323913094 920380 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conformance error \ Left side is: 1.2073523605465162560e+43 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Right side is: 299792458 m s^-1 (velocity) \ Suggestion: multiply left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions. < 1323913108 259948 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 8 million km/hr -> c < 1323913117 541770 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :10000000/1349066061 (approx. 0.007412535448847823) < 1323913130 614301 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tsk tsk < 1323913375 78674 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: my brother is setting up lounge room as entertainment area.. my only fear is he will abscond with things from my room. < 1323913380 556788 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill keep you posted :-D < 1323913905 492983 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Then lock your room. < 1323913926 331245 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, thats the problem. < 1323913946 229439 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am such a person that can't say no to anyone who is prepared to use intimidation < 1323913961 43844 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :intimidation? < 1323913977 314766 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you extrapolate this idea sufficiently into all areas of my life, you will realize why i live in my moms basement without any friends or lovers or money :D < 1323913992 723873 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not all that bad < 1323914041 611538 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens when your mother dies? or will you be dead too by then < 1323914055 776888 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure :D < 1323914062 27026 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :excitement < 1323914065 847028 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :adventure < 1323914103 235510 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will then become like me and live in a small shared apartment without any friends or lovers or money. < 1323914108 18427 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when my mom dies my brother says "all those times i said we could share the house i was lying. now we will see if you were bluffing when you said you don't even care" < 1323914136 940160 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1323914160 746057 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, life ain't so hard once people stop leeching off you < 1323914173 544112 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the leeches themselves which represent the problems < 1323914188 141162 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they take many forms < 1323914248 306579 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was a lot younger, i figured out how my life would work out when if i poured a glass of cordial my brother would take it < 1323914260 304941 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so, i learned, if i want a glass i need to pour one for everyone < 1323914287 13233 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it is all simply peoples way of responding automatically to someone who doesn't say no < 1323914353 972808 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a bit like taking phrases like "sharing is caring" and just distorting them sufficiently that you can turn a profit < 1323914488 612151 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i don't think i have anything in my room that he needs < 1323914795 641695 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's not so bad is it? < 1323914847 533072 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's important to note for anyone reading my little monologue that i actually react like this towards most people, and it's not that i single my brother out < 1323915125 304659 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: YOU BETTER FIX YOUR PERSONALITY FLAWS OR I WILL BAN YOU < 1323915132 823539 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whistles innocently
< 1323915335 701390 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to argue inspite of his anger which he tended to take out on the plaster walls, by being a smartass which was perhaps not so wise < 1323915356 291161 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :until one time he throw a stick at my head and i got the message then < 1323915380 6940 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: i think the general advice for people living with psychopats is "get the HELL out of there" < 1323915506 852350 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i just make him seem like a psychopath due to my own refusal to actually say no to anyone about anything < 1323915883 845878 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no no it seems i am missing the point.. he may well be.. i would be lying if i didn't suspect him of it < 1323916007 443503 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm getting this intuitive warning feeling which says to stop my own speculation - only you can know. < 1323916098 471037 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i know how easy "get the hell out" sounds.. but it is the advice which would never be taken < 1323916847 599962 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1323918123 647320 :Rachel88!~prophaze@59.93.41.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323918175 79587 :Rachel88!~prophaze@59.93.41.103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Facebook Traffic Generation Secrets Revealed , http://fb.weightdeals.com/ < 1323918190 301130 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Banning secrets revealed? < 1323918197 409231 :Rachel88!~prophaze@59.93.41.103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed lol < 1323918208 812722 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1323918209 4850 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323918213 6584 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric Rachel88 :Rachel88 < 1323918224 539171 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1323918231 722589 :Rachel88!~prophaze@59.93.41.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323918235 785884 :Rachel88!~prophaze@59.93.41.103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1323918240 339173 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric +b :*!*prophaze@59.93.41.* > 1323918240 378875 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323918240 515765 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric Rachel88 :Rachel88 < 1323918242 266141 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That was not a ban, that was a kick. < 1323918244 180742 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better. < 1323918252 543736 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi autocompleted to the wrong command < 1323918256 380948 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1323918258 782885 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1323918258 807101 NAMES :#esoteric < 1323918259 375418 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kick instead of kickban? < 1323918262 428421 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323918323 40394 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bizarre that it came back ... was there a human attached to that spam??? < 1323918342 355967 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we care? < 1323918360 736789 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but that doesn't mean you can't consider it a curiosity :P < 1323918870 584324 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dude did I miss something? < 1323918886 478415 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :bahahahahaha < 1323918943 454959 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the pleas for reconsideration must be the most rewarding aspect of IRC operating. < 1323919001 138894 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pleas? < 1323919002 709889 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol.. what the < 1323919022 841613 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:03 < Rachel88> wait < 1323919050 350669 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't see that < 1323919072 566463 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the most exciting thing to happen in #esoteric all day? :-D < 1323919077 60409 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323919088 859922 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ s/day?/day < 1323919094 76953 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1323919132 238851 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: probably < 1323919134 461052 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god I've changed so many things there's no way this is going to work first try. < 1323919954 873474 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I love that feeling < 1323920269 999481 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 NICK :{{stub}} < 1323920299 582513 :{{stub}}!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 NICK :PiRSquared17 < 1323920442 543572 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION completely gutted his IRC bot and put in a plugin system.
< 1323920547 226515 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you just need slow and buggy implementations of half of common lisp and sendmail. < 1323920613 635493 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuuugh why does perl require modules to return a true value < 1323920627 277215 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it knows you're not lying, duh < 1323920674 216709 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, oerjan update < 1323920688 472350 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I need to ping two people, don't I?) < 1323920766 2939 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in Perl is it customary to end a file with a 1; < 1323922135 200237 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I don't know; maybe just in case you sometimes need it to check something instead of always success < 1323922201 978236 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well yes that's the purpose. < 1323922769 803759 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1323924263 473564 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is "usefulness of uselessness"? < 1323924338 681933 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 NICK :Picommand < 1323924428 995077 :Picommand!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 NICK :Pi_Quadrant < 1323924558 726574 :Pi_Quadrant!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 NICK :PiRSquared17 < 1323924728 778971 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1323924761 18956 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Quit: Bye! ... < 1323925167 308031 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323925545 431473 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loves making things unecessarily flexible.
< 1323926885 399753 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, that's what exceptions are for. < 1323929542 545187 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: You are now graced with my absence. < 1323931277 804274 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://beust.com/weblog/2010/07/28/why-scalas-option-and-haskells-maybe-types-wont-save-you-from-null/ < 1323931286 329657 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This person is an idiot, but does he work on other stuff? < 1323931380 766955 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TestNG < 1323931479 351915 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :he writes about a lot of stuff < 1323931483 33008 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :many people think he's an idiot < 1323931491 365707 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really mind him much, if I don't pay too much attention to what he says < 1323931767 567379 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323931787 176270 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: That's not how you deal with people on the Internet who don't agree with you on everything. < 1323931796 70695 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323931828 453108 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is glad to have explained the matter.
< 1323932032 20834 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I find that hash tables allowing null values are rare to the point where this limitation has never bothered me in fifteen years of Java." < 1323932035 443066 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :........... < 1323932076 877944 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"See what’s going on here? You avoid a NullPointerException by… testing against null, except that it's called None. What have we gained, exactly?" < 1323932090 219453 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :compile-time error vs. runtime error (er, well... in Haskell, I don't know anything about Scala) < 1323932126 367392 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can still get the equivalent of a NullPointerException by doing fromJust < 1323932140 338 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you use fromJust without any sort of checking, you're a moron. < 1323932158 450967 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the whole point of Option to... statically type for null types? < 1323932161 716512 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :other good things to do: unsafeCoerce, unsafePerformIO, kill yourself < 1323932207 969928 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there valid uses of fromJust? < 1323932216 539028 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323932226 518459 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also valid uses of unsafeCoerce, unsafePerformIO < 1323932231 266657 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think I've seen a recommendation that even in those cases, better to use a case where the Nothing case points to an error "Blah blah blah" < 1323932252 413666 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's generally safe to use fromJust if you know for certain that Nothing is impossible. < 1323932269 66591 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Please don't use fromJust even if you know for certain that Nothing is impossible. < 1323932282 498020 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens so infrequently that I don't have to! < 1323932286 301841 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1323932290 409187 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even when it happens, don't use fromJust. < 1323932298 66812 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use let Just x = ..., or something. < 1323932304 615593 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the reason: because I may be stupid? < 1323932314 734910 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fromjust is nice in ghci and friends at the very least < 1323932318 431282 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with fromJust? < 1323932323 993077 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to pattern matching? < 1323932324 671990 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason is: If it turns out to be Nothing, the error message will be completely unhelpful. < 1323932334 120160 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fromJust Nothing < 1323932334 827145 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: Maybe.fromJust: Nothing < 1323932350 964418 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas if you do let Just x =, or fromMaybe (error "something useful"), the error message will tell you something. < 1323932354 5714 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's runtime errors could certainly use an improvement < 1323932360 341278 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember that you don't really get stack traces in Haskell. < 1323932369 651368 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let Just x = Nothing < 1323932370 338276 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : not an expression: `let Just x = Nothing' < 1323932372 851796 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a line number would be nice < 1323932378 258913 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323932379 778231 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let Just x = Nothing in 5 < 1323932380 457820 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1323932380 854661 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let Just x = Nothing in x < 1323932381 605102 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: :3:4-19: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Da... < 1323932385 742995 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right haha laziness wow < 1323932394 930507 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: haha < 1323932396 395670 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think fromJust is OK, although usually it should not be used. < 1323932397 468811 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: That's why you use let! < 1323932411 428355 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Giving you a line number would be equivalent to giving you a stack trace, more or less. < 1323932422 638565 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you mean that you want the line number of the line that fromJust is defined in. < 1323932439 754191 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1323932487 868513 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you know that it's never Nothing, just don't use a Maybe. < 1323932604 834965 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a hypothetical scenario. Perhaps a function that could result in Nothing doesn't when given a certain input. < 1323932613 113544 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying it's common as it's probably not. < 1323932734 309850 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's given a certain input, and you know the output, you don't need to call the function < 1323932735 51990 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1323932772 197091 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MSleep < 1323932798 699496 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: uh... I didn't say I know the output < 1323932802 434117 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that I know it's not a Nothing < 1323932821 87248 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes pattern matching gives better errors, that's true. < 1323932990 803804 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323933431 94796 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1323933663 990567 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use File::Spec < 1323933670 798953 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use File::Spec; print %INC; < 1323933671 390505 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :warnings.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/warnings.pmwarnings/register.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/warnings/register.pmFile/Spec.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Spec.pmFile/Spec/Unix.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Spec/Unix.pmvars.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/vars.pmstrict.pm/usr/share/perl/5.10/strict.pm < 1323933723 306678 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use File::Spec; $INC{"/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Spec/Unix.pm"} = undef; < 1323933727 452740 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesssss < 1323933864 452190 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print keys %INC < 1323933876 963677 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl use File::Spec; print keys %INC < 1323933877 625561 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :warnings.pmwarnings/register.pmFile/Spec.pmFile/Spec/Unix.pmvars.pmstrict.pm < 1323933887 559394 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323934036 644755 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just sent one of those... what do you call it... a facsimile, or "fux" for short. How... 1980s? < 1323934049 82701 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hey! I've done that before! < 1323934059 6492 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :recently in fact. < 1323934116 328171 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had my signature on it. It's crazy how that's seen as somehow reliable and tamper-proof and whatever, but an email with a scanned bitmap is obviously completely untrustworthy. (Let alone an email with just a digital signature.) < 1323934302 143001 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a package of four monad transformers: FinderT, InbindT, ReadthisT, WithoutT. < 1323934393 325857 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReadthisT? < 1323934405 706460 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, what are any of them? < 1323934420 342853 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReadmeT, a monad transformer to force people to read your READMEs < 1323934441 981248 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReadthisT allows a monad to access itself except for the return values. < 1323934553 751373 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype ReadthisT f x = ReadthisT { runReadthisT :: f () -> f x }; < 1323934631 374264 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now do you know what it means? < 1323934682 761669 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1323934689 128098 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1323934974 826065 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :readself x = x >>= ($ (() <$ x)) . runReadthisT; < 1323934984 6143 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :readfunc = ReadthisT . (pure .); < 1323935099 376214 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :readfunc fst :: ReadthisT ((,) String) String; (using (,) monad from Data.Monoid.Plus) Now you read the so far accumulated string < 1323935149 554249 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now can you understand it better? < 1323935240 395359 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323935372 986737 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, update < 1323935739 399340 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323936097 265854 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323936122 507897 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323938108 276409 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323938803 58769 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1323938842 584767 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-233-197.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You want to fuck with a mathematician? Just begin a sentence with, "Let ϵ → ∞." < 1323938848 302310 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-233-197.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wince* < 1323938876 97258 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The limit as ϵ → ∞ ? < 1323939179 293533 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323939243 447237 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323939549 874449 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't see those characters :( < 1323939869 851079 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :epsilon, rightarrow, and infinity < 1323939899 650030 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I don't know if that's an epsilon < 1323939911 573788 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably is < 1323939921 913398 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because epsilon is usually not used like that < 1323939927 572767 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's big epsilon and not small? < 1323939935 351129 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks more like backwards "in set" thingy < 1323939935 529205 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno. I suck at greek. < 1323939956 808814 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, not backwards < 1323939967 250706 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like the in-set thingy < 1323939975 594156 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, this thing claims to have "unicode support", should i be seeing those? < 1323939983 953507 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323939986 987145 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1323939995 720703 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kvirc < 1323940078 811530 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have 4.0.4 and 3.2.6 apparently already had unicode support < 1323940101 394270 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check the font < 1323940183 496680 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dfd < 1323940189 64909 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hnnnngh < 1323940202 309431 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be awesome to have an OS that you could ask to do things. < 1323940223 678698 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would ask questions to clarify information until it was specific enough that it would confirm if you want to do something < 1323940241 489393 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fonts do you use < 1323940244 259291 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had consolas < 1323940257 467855 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION imagines typing something like "get more fonts" and then it responds with "would you like to install such and such font pack?"
< 1323940275 256579 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's not monospace, please just say "i don't use a font, i'm a stupid" < 1323940282 727090 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on < 1323940306 276170 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it turns out, it is monospace. < 1323940313 479127 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally Monospace < 1323940316 59349 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do you think monospace fonts are appropriate for all situations? < 1323940317 747734 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323940321 363210 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: yes < 1323940332 833907 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how Monospace is a font, but it is < 1323940347 522897 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it is codeword for "System default monospace font" < 1323940359 994463 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's U+03F5 GREEK LUNATE EPSILON SYMBOL, aka 'straight epsilon'; as opposed to something like U+03B5 GREEK SMALL LETTER EPSILON. (TeXwise, it's \epsilon and not \varepsilon.) < 1323940375 915078 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1323940389 317890 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so okay just the usual epsilon < 1323940393 348900 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the Greeks would think of our use of their alphabet < 1323940401 982456 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my colleague is greek < 1323940406 772974 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "asshole" < 1323940408 960993 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They would say STOP STEALING OUR LETTERS YOU BASTURDS. < 1323940409 318494 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1323940410 838432 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*assholes < 1323940418 983823 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, precisely. < 1323940438 170294 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'd be all "soon we can't write at all because you've stolen all our letters". < 1323940463 717203 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of their small epsilons will expand into nothingness. < 1323940468 476208 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they write. < 1323940472 884931 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :he uses them exactly like everyone else, except that he doesn't make a clear distinction between m and � for instance and just pronounces each as em or mu at random < 1323940490 789311 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like i don't differentiate between M, m and others in speech < 1323940539 773789 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :µ2 < 1323940543 886329 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry, I had to) < 1323940557 760471 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ahahahahahahahaihswerjwerjwejr < 1323940560 981174 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should write < 1323940564 394096 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a webcomic bro < 1323940569 981894 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that < 1323940577 561361 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323940589 825245 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: nothing, don't mistake my fake laughter for laughter at something interesting. < 1323940600 783836 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, mu 2 < 1323940634 934397 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that i realized < 1323940639 862700 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :still don't know what the joke is < 1323940656 957142 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pokemon called Mewtwo < 1323940694 24218 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, true, it means something. < 1323940699 385434 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :good one bro < 1323940707 333790 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1323940765 170565 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :was �2 the one that looked like random pixels in that one pokemon version < 1323940786 694962 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's Missingno < 1323940791 84544 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :o. < 1323940836 588758 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323940837 549381 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it might be Missingno. < 1323940879 125420 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it is < 1323941012 361132 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that none of this should be taken to imply that I know much about Pokemon. < 1323941168 515073 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323942527 838713 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome cswords < 1323942534 265268 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`?welcome cswords < 1323942535 926937 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1323942536 822594 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?welcome: not found < 1323942559 460181 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1323942608 894903 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I have no idea if you're a regular or not < 1323942639 990513 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, new here. < 1323942651 919001 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grad student in PL, looking for some neat hangouts. < 1323942734 405734 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1323942765 394369 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, sometimes people come in who are looking for weird spiritual stuff, "esoterica" I guess. That's not what this is about. PL stuff is what this is about < 1323942783 291067 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, just wanted to be sure. And welcome! < 1323942818 702271 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a chanserv-driven automagical welcome message anyhow? Or does that sort of thing still exist? < 1323942833 804743 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, thanks for the welcome! It seems liek ti'll be a good time. < 1323942848 665986 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1323942855 21785 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does lambdabot break if you feed it little omega? < 1323942878 954073 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1323942884 337113 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot is a Haskell bot < 1323942889 37820 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1323942902 625345 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. I'm not sure what you mean by little omega >.> < 1323942907 910376 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot, ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)) < 1323942911 924485 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got an evaluation time limit. < 1323942914 47872 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1323942920 440345 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ones I've seen don't. < 1323942926 167763 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they hit that and die. < 1323942950 227068 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x) < 1323942951 158950 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1 < 1323942972 404645 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323942974 66801 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1323942974 454558 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one long-running thing: < 1323942975 703169 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix id < 1323942979 446896 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1323942990 829684 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't know much Haskell... yet.
< 1323943000 540701 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix < 1323943001 271838 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (a -> a) -> a < 1323943002 248571 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t id < 1323943003 101017 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a -> a < 1323943088 909832 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, there's a department christmas lunch thing-thing now. -> < 1323943104 911251 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to go to sleep soon < 1323943645 918570 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1323943699 293753 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1323943699 471961 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1323943707 903321 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another topical bot. < 1323943722 678084 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Forgot to advertise it for a moment there.) < 1323943753 485350 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What do you have to say for yourself? < 1323943753 723547 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fnord juhannusn fnord fnord < 1323943769 456717 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Nice first impression there, dude. < 1323943769 971609 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i didn't know that. thanks catfive :) i need dynamic class support ( dynamic fnord of c modules", which means that i have < 1323944127 30397 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night < 1323944203 120000 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night at noon. < 1323946936 806390 :op_4!~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323946992 557981 :op_4!~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1323947695 485510 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323952004 339705 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1323956257 209687 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1323957066 563526 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1323957234 338135 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323957234 554086 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1323957240 498700 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: hi < 1323957254 490056 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor said 20h 57m 45s ago: DAAA DADADAAA DADA DADADADADADADADA DAAA DADADAAA DADA DADADADADADADADA < 1323957254 671590 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan said 17h 11m 25s ago: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1323957261 605389 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a beautiful collaboration. < 1323957776 762867 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323957920 773165 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1323958271 284689 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A908.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323958308 219016 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-27.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1323959134 996613 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Ngevd < 1323959201 171988 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-227-55.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323959210 977880 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-233-197.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323959320 661651 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323959324 671996 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, try 2 < 1323959365 931830 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323959444 392733 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1323960310 44754 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323960370 36699 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323961527 117680 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I am being sucked into the vortex < 1323961544 181849 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big a vortex? < 1323961575 275632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The biggest < 1323961576 16820 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vortex < 1323961587 350161 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no < 1323962116 394917 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1323962344 595678 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1323964009 901219 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1323964401 199132 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323964420 542513 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it actually possible to write a brainhype interpreter? < 1323964704 85741 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1323964711 991131 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming brainhype is what I recall it being. < 1323964738 657582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This language is "super-Turing-complete" because it solves the halting problem for Turing machines." < 1323964746 605994 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah, unimplementable, assuming the Church-Turing thesis is true. < 1323964754 992028 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That means no. :p) < 1323964785 568713 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it says "you can write a Brainhype interpreter in Scheme-omega." < 1323964817 306172 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nullbytes: Yes, but you can't write a Scheme-omega interpreter, either. < 1323964841 151975 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, OK, you can write an interpreter, just not an interpreter in anything you can run :) < 1323964847 379217 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( the wiki page doesnt make that part clear < 1323964860 989229 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The linked page does. Well, assuming you're familiar with the halting problem. < 1323964877 93385 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically you can't run any Turing-complete languages either because computers have finite memory. < 1323964887 328522 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's easier to fake that than it is to fake a solution to the halting problem :P < 1323964919 800440 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cant the halting problem be solved for programs with very limited memory? < 1323964934 660259 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Turing machine can solve the halting problem for finite state machines, yes. < 1323964943 143751 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :However brainfuck is Turing-complete, not a finite state automaton. < 1323964952 555194 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And brainhype is brainfuck + extras. < 1323965017 24058 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what if at every instruction you record the instruction and everything in memory. If this ever repeats or you run out of memory, theres an infinite loop < 1323965052 4260 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nullbytes: That works for finite state machines. < 1323965060 2071 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing machines have infinite loops with non-repeating states. < 1323965070 996886 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :+[>+] -- this brainfuck program runs forever, but never repeats state. < 1323965096 562391 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The original brainfuck interpreter only had some 30k cells, but the conventional version and the one brainhype is based on has infinite memory.) < 1323965099 973538 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well couldnt you limit the available memory and call every combination of bits a state? < 1323965170 98640 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you limit the available memory, then it's no longer Turing complete, and it's no longer brainfuck. < 1323965181 183953 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok thank you < 1323965184 691917 :nullbytes!187d6264@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.125.98.100 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1323965199 295936 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I broke him. < 1323965215 751235 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Do you know the HORROR of the halting problem? < 1323965797 889186 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I do not < 1323965807 794295 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: WEEP, MORTAL!!! < 1323965813 804349 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WEEP IN HORROR < 1323965847 104926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323965950 801431 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1323965957 137861 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just tried to prove the halting problem a couple of times < 1323965961 595712 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1323965962 315448 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :disprove < 1323965964 484360 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove it possible < 1323965965 140247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to solve < 1323965965 777405 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1323965990 11301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323965990 214388 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1323965999 188284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were trying to write a general halt-detector? < 1323966018 996890 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no not _me_ < 1323966022 823230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you-plural < 1323966032 86273 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-12-15#155321 :p < 1323966034 775087 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very hard < 1323966036 239181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so it lasted all of ~30 lines < 1323966045 528853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be very surprised if the halting theorem turned out to be incorrect; its proof is pretty simple and it's stood up for years < 1323966079 892026 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But it'd make all those pesky problems about countable sets decidable! < 1323966128 950036 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should figure out exactly how much you can solve with a halting oracle; I'm pretty sure you can nest it to solve some statements about uncountable sets, but I don't think it can do everything. < 1323966148 219481 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably somebody already has. < 1323966185 896022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, security update in bzip2 < 1323966197 66909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a little surprising < 1323966211 354026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(temporary file related) < 1323966218 304059 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It zipped too far. < 1323966221 234302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, vague arrgh at gksudo stealing focus < 1323966225 259879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was threatening the very integrity of the universe. < 1323966226 577153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I can see why it /does/ < 1323966232 81582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: err, gksudo really really should steal focus < 1323966241 630618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it stealing focus and the user not expecting it is annoying, the other way round is insecure) < 1323966255 950117 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: technically, it should steal focus and then not focus the password field < 1323966275 732608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a malicious program could time a gksudo to start right before you enter your email password or whatever < 1323966277 403332 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, beautiful < 1323966280 610209 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hope that it's the same as your system password < 1323966299 185370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gksudo takes a while to start, it'd have to time it quite accurately < 1323966320 551070 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also very noticeable, so I doubt it's a very plausible exlpoit :P < 1323966348 647389 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, not focusing the password field doesn't solve that < 1323966355 695972 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case your email password field is in the centre of the screen < 1323966367 344392 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should steal focus, freeze for a second or two, and then focus the password field < 1323966370 167588 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that sounds annoying < 1323966376 934879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet openbsd gksudo does that < 1323966400 835216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and randomize how long it freezes for < 1323966436 731100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a cryptosure randomizer < 1323966443 621 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, this means that optimising gksudo could cause a security exploit < 1323966448 810259 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to making that attack more practical < 1323966461 793014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*security hole < 1323966498 422371 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh, why is this so addictive < 1323966510 637241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is what so addictive? < 1323966544 688520 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack Overflow; I joined yesterday to ask a git question and have somehow amassed 313 reputation since < 1323966623 443464 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you are good at answering other people's questions. < 1323966629 636327 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider making a talk show < 1323966632 396965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm < 1323966632 977158 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only answered 4! < 1323966643 241140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually went and uninstalled Dungeons of Dredmor, then deleted the .deb < 1323966653 282588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can redownload it, but that requires effort and an Internet connection < 1323966658 270989 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you do that? < 1323966691 418202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's addictive in an MMO sort of way < 1323966698 310334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I noticed < 1323966709 240677 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323966716 846798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after being awake for 23 hours continuously, almost all of which were playing games < 1323966729 40355 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: incidentally, how does scapegoat handle http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8500282/git-merging-changes-after-branching-before-a-revert? < 1323966731 781562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is basically a single-player MMO in terms of game design… < 1323966745 364910 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say "hopefully better than git", but I don't blame git for handling a really, really stupid user imperfectly < 1323966768 621514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: pull everything but the revert; if it can't automatically be resolved, you get a conflict < 1323966781 691385 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hey, you're not allowed to answer based on the url < 1323966784 72415 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more complex than that < 1323966787 407530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm reading the page < 1323966791 918421 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :P < 1323966810 759218 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wouldn't future merges pull in the revert too? < 1323966814 481155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's an example of my "simplest thing git can't do" example < 1323966829 565376 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's part of master but not restructure, and ergo should be pulled in < 1323966835 79304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, you have to pull in all changes explicitly or implicitly; you can choose to not pull a dependency and then you get a conflict < 1323966838 25590 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, git can definitely do what you said < 1323966850 176143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you define tip as "all changes in master except change X" < 1323966853 516002 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even did that, with git cherry-pick < 1323966856 928019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, even darcs can do that < 1323966879 718185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think it just refuses to merge, rather than giving a conflict, if you leave out a dependency < 1323966894 40865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you asked that question? < 1323966901 41397 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323966907 688058 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that surprising? < 1323966926 545905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yeah, I tried this before, and it does bring the right changes over to restructure, but after trying to merge things back into master (just locally, to check that the cherry-picking hadn't broken anything), everything seemed to fall apart even more than previously." -- simplest thing git can't do < 1323966933 616591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, in a way < 1323966944 673434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely forgot you weren't Adeon < 1323966960 502071 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, it didn't fall apart due to the cherry-picks, IIRC, but I don't remember exactly < 1323966962 192979 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who's Adeon? < 1323966972 614852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the best NetHack realtime speedrunner in the world < 1323966982 784548 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, that sounds... relevant? < 1323967013 746352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we once figured out it was him who got a record because he was insufficiently annoyed when the fact that his record had been broken by someone anonymous came to light < 1323967033 279079 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1323967038 543766 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not seeing the relevance, mind you < 1323967058 944306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's the way you were talking about the author < 1323967070 394675 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323967079 846425 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call someone /else/ who asked that really, really stupid < 1323967100 598616 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's reserved for, umm, I can't think of anything VCS-related you could do to earn that title < 1323967127 708635 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I assumed "I joined yesterday to ask a git question" made it obvious :P < 1323967251 710931 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323967259 796988 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably switch to xmonad today, or I never will < 1323967367 824540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why today in particular? < 1323967407 960974 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tomorrow they remove the letter "m" from the alphabet < 1323967416 232094 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because I decided to yesterday < 1323967657 85725 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323967659 931783 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (that makes sense, right?) < 1323967665 497113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, in a way < 1323967676 20505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no if you've ever decided to use xmonad in the past and not acted on it, though < 1323967692 77071 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, howso? < 1323967700 929438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, Montclair State University has just sued Oracle for extortion < 1323967733 345123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a university large enough to successfully sue Oracle, I wonder? < 1323967898 120845 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1323967925 984370 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1323968117 409676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what's that meant to do? < 1323968124 810152 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it does do < 1323968140 428481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing visible in channel, at least < 1323968146 834568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it do anything via PM/PN/DCC? < 1323968153 594879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323968277 182656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The people in #haskell channel kept tolding me things that don't go." --zzo38, in these logs i'm gepping < 1323968278 667900 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :grepping < 1323968300 904598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tolding" sounds like a time travel verb < 1323968424 779196 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Toading" sounds like a sexual perversion in the Mushroom Kingdom. < 1323968437 154601 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unabomber should destroy both oracle and montclair < 1323968438 677201 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323968463 260474 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh, somebody in Indiana. < 1323968473 346689 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what they say about people in Indiana! Not much actually. < 1323968501 246699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, it seems that And Yet It Moves actually has an achievement called Gregor < 1323968522 131443 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Gregor is the greatest of all achievements. Many hope to achieve Gregor, few succeed. < 1323968534 933306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I achieved it reasonably easily < 1323968543 364854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's for doing five levels in limited rotations mode) < 1323968545 599142 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lies < 1323968556 215171 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1323968556 396472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's a different Gregor < 1323968557 302937 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1323968580 154446 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a PL grad student in CS at IU Bloomington, if that gets me any street cred. < 1323968585 676389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1323968588 330642 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1323968591 891356 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Uh oh, I think we're supposed to fight now. < 1323968602 786279 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: 'cuz I'm a PL grad student in CS at Purdue West Lafayette :P < 1323968609 11675 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1323968612 794545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, just do what I do when I come across someone from Manchester < 1323968620 345703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to ineffectually trade a couple of insults then get bored < 1323968625 638015 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My school has a Dan Friedman and a Kent Dybvig. Can I harness those? < 1323968641 118641 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: My school has RCS and ... aww fuck. < 1323968690 715496 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You guys recently got Amal, right? < 1323968693 898128 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :She's pretty legit. < 1323968696 203702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, RCS was good for its time < 1323968734 909229 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm just making hyukjokes here :P < 1323968793 148627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, UK media are starting to cover the US election, now < 1323968795 724554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it like over there? < 1323968820 643013 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The republican primaries are even more of a zoo than they usually are. < 1323968831 108787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "zoo"? < 1323968832 257836 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And the democrats are basically standing back going "... dafuq" < 1323968837 278853 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That. < 1323968840 107175 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Where do I even begin. < 1323968845 254102 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The republicans have chosen a bunch of crazies to run. < 1323968850 804006 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like they thought < 1323968860 334495 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA Here's one contender < 1323968871 847316 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We're never going to beat Obama. Let's just run one of those people we've been promising for decades because there's never a chance he'll win." < 1323968877 218382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: go for it anyway, I know that the US election process probably /is/ as crazy as the UK media makes it look, but still find it hard to believe < 1323968884 312990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: ah, I see < 1323968895 397886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually think Biden was the sanest Republican candidate there's been for a while < 1323968902 287069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Palin, not so much…) < 1323968909 534460 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I lived in Texas for a long while. I would never, ever vote for Rick Perry. < 1323968928 283174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he actually became noticeably crazier while campaiging for the election, then back to normal after Obama won < 1323968931 759863 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joe Biden, the guy currentl in office as a democrat? < 1323968937 690822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, not hm < 1323968939 885817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :McCain < 1323968947 275104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get confused easily between American politicans < 1323968949 212012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*politicians < 1323968973 269444 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1323968976 996814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(presumably the same happens in reverse: how many Americans here know the deputy prime minister of the UK?) < 1323968983 403335 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :George McBush and Alaska Spice, you mean? < 1323968987 931393 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So who's still really in the running? I guess Mitt Romney and .... Mitt Romney. < 1323968993 461545 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can google it? < 1323968993 894423 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: "Alaska Spice" X-D < 1323969002 621219 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Mitt Romney is pretty much the only sane one. < 1323969004 988989 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he's even crazy. < 1323969009 298860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: indeed < 1323969012 133114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not a case of knowing it < 1323969015 820063 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :As republicans this year go, he's quite sane. < 1323969026 663283 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't make him especially sane, because it's a very biased polling group. < 1323969027 419434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ooh, I've even heard of him < 1323969028 285285 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But y'know. < 1323969057 52293 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to beat politicians with sticks. < 1323969060 885057 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like it would be more productive. < 1323969072 164877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, most UKians probably couldn't name the leader of the opposition at the moment < 1323969075 860770 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Herman Cain was a "major" candidate for a while. He was the CEO of a pizza chain and quoted an "anonymous poet" when he was actually quoting the theme of the Pokemon 2000 movie. < 1323969092 308112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, does Pokémon 2000 have its poet credited? < 1323969096 337963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, it's done by an anonymous poet < 1323969096 890664 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Ed whatshisname with the brother < 1323969102 151445 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Balls < 1323969103 824991 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other one < 1323969107 602097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Milliband? < 1323969113 233522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's one of the Millibands, but can't remember which < 1323969113 411152 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's not a secret, and it's not poetry, it's a piece of shitty music that's the theme to a movie :P < 1323969119 630660 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that one < 1323969127 449039 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I know it's one of the Eds < 1323969130 246821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see… the way to remember it is that there's two Eds and two Millibands < 1323969134 334417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we just take the intersection? < 1323969138 438638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a surprisingly simple mnemonic < 1323969147 300941 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not Harriet Harman < 1323969157 55880 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just remember it doesn't matter who wins < 1323969171 216996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: in the US, or the UK? < 1323969176 304371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK it generally does matter < 1323969177 109318 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, that pokemon thing was probably just his script writer messing with him. < 1323969177 406196 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahha.. anywhere? < 1323969188 589327 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly I think the funniest wannabe-contender is Santorum. He honestly couldn't even get into the runnings because his name means "the frothy mix of lube and feces that is sometimes an unintended result of anal sex" < 1323969220 400095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you get occasionally noticeable third-or-subsequent-party wins in the UK < 1323969224 568227 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i doubt that it matters in any meaningful sense < 1323969238 612478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and noticeable effects on the resulting policy too, especially on Europe < 1323969257 95942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's even possible that Scotland will referendum about independence some time soon < 1323969263 607494 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: You can see we talk about esoteric programming a lot here. < 1323969271 166163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the results of the last election < 1323969278 778583 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHHHH, CS words? Not C-Swords? Or both? < 1323969279 444817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hey, can't political bribery be considered an esolang? < 1323969290 219434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I was wondering that myself, I saw both expansions pretty quickly < 1323969291 261301 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should make an esolang about European politics < 1323969292 289580 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Too mainstream :P < 1323969317 77791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: of the EU government in particular? or the various member states? < 1323969318 444331 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I was too busy trying to figure out what "csw" meant < 1323969321 473683 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whois suggests it's probably C. Swords < 1323969322 266033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :their governments aren't that similar to each other < 1323969325 937229 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, europe as a whole < 1323969335 549334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: both? < 1323969337 351699 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With all the minutuae < 1323969342 464776 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it's C. Swords. < 1323969347 874279 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right down to the councillor for Hexham East < 1323969350 608994 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though apparently I've been mistaken for a bot who spews CS terms. < 1323969362 79964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: what constituency is Hexham in, btw? < 1323969362 512737 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hexham is full of idiots < 1323969367 934646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it large enough to have one for itself? < 1323969369 667259 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the handily named Hexham < 1323969376 932587 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not large enough, remote enough < 1323969380 170314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, that's quite a convenient name < 1323969387 146031 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Haha, now we know who you are! < 1323969395 378179 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of the largest in England < 1323969396 868631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's the only place of note in the entire surrounding countryside, so the constituency it's in is named after it? < 1323969402 389978 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1323969406 781833 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Although if you get a PhD, you'll be Dr. Swords, which is almost as good as my colleague Prof. Hammer < 1323969416 386455 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha. < 1323969420 409973 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It contains the point in the UK that is furthest from a road < 1323969421 349129 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's part of why I'm working on my PhD. < 1323969422 789042 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1323969431 176010 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can become a supervillain without even changing my name. < 1323969437 979100 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I had a PhD, I'd sound like a supervillain almost as much < 1323969441 365438 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a little keming < 1323969453 629420 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dr. Richards. BORING NAME. *sobblecopter* < 1323969487 542591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I couldn't become a supervillain without changing my name, but not because of the name < 1323969492 236514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not cut out to be a supervillain :( < 1323969503 875466 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not evil enough < 1323969507 581743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1323969521 470183 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the margarine of evil, the diet coke of evil < 1323969554 94337 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's closer to the Ghandi of evil < 1323969556 962474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably be pretty bad even as a subvillain, to be fair < 1323969562 80169 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, not even evil < 1323969606 635968 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, if I got a PhD, I think Marvel could have a could try at a lawsuit against me < 1323969627 621257 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: We don't know your surname :P < 1323969630 950959 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hexham in the UK? < 1323969635 228526 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, yes < 1323969635 431194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: it is < 1323969640 906108 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, van Doorn < 1323969668 183210 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i live on the roof of the forum cinema in hexham < 1323969669 150884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also three esolangers there: elliott, Taneb, and we don't know of the existence of the third but I'm claiming they exist now in order to be able to go "see? I was right" later < 1323969694 875210 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1323969697 539532 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I reckon you're closer to spoon's roof < 1323969709 623184 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a new person! < 1323969710 292108 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Obviously itidus21 < 1323969711 952307 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi cswords < 1323969723 227517 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A /legit/ new person. Not locking us in a matrix of solidity or anything. < 1323969725 675731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the funny thing is, I expected they'd probably been here before but `?welcomed them anyway < 1323969730 766568 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sure is a small little hamlet < 1323969733 65168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, my plan paid off! < 1323969752 397938 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : err, not hm < 1323969752 577086 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : McCain < 1323969752 819644 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323969764 311164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biden McCain < 1323969778 661745 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Then who is going to lock us in our matrix of solidity? :/ < 1323969790 304804 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can be found in Gallowsbank Wood... < 1323969790 967710 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, Dilston is a hamlet. Lowgate is a hamlet. /Fellside/ is a hamlet. Hexham is a TOWN godammit! < 1323969806 73493 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Don't worry, we'll ALWAYS be locked in a matrix of solidity. We lock it ourselves. < 1323969835 105851 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: BTW: < 1323969837 650254 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1323969838 927304 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1323969844 446003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1323969847 612506 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : hexham is full of idiots < 1323969849 69947 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1323969852 879490 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wsa here earlier this morning. < 1323969857 355281 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because every new person has to go "huh?" and then try to hack the bot. < 1323969859 365613 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1323969870 987206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: also, every old person? < 1323969872 519156 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: oh, thanks for reminding me I haven't logread yet < 1323969883 526859 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it handle forkbombs? < 1323969884 338171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will defer it until there isn't innocent newbies around.
< 1323969893 532405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: they just vanish after a while < 1323969894 400359 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :` :() { : | :& }; : < 1323969896 713208 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found < 1323969897 678622 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1323969900 538491 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run :() { : | :& }; : < 1323969903 32701 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1323969908 812133 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323969912 539033 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they vanish a lot quicker than that; ulimits < 1323969914 462260 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's good. < 1323969919 386226 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: Herman Cain was a "major" candidate for a while. He was the CEO of a pizza chain and quoted an "anonymous poet" when he was actually quoting the theme of the Pokemon 2000 movie. < 1323969919 565630 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: It's not a secret, and it's not poetry, it's a piece of shitty music that's the theme to a movie :P < 1323969929 710547 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm an innocent newbie? < 1323969930 645365 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey, I want to live in a world where major political candidates quote the theme to the Pokemon 2000 movie. < 1323969931 291482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to remember if I've watched Pokémon 2000 < 1323969932 463801 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't feel like one :/ < 1323969937 657640 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Well, maybe a guilty newbie. < 1323969939 332755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the plot about? I've watched exactly two Pokémon movies, I Think < 1323969940 939491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I think < 1323969948 746917 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords, I was probably the most innocent newbie here < 1323969957 755549 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We corrupted Taneb in, like, a day. < 1323969960 505272 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I've seen the first one, and the one with Celebi in it < 1323969963 708256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote poultry < 1323969966 592991 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :200) elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. Two! \ 297) Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice. < 1323969972 936109 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: How many poultry science buildings does /your/ university have? < 1323969991 656566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm not aware that mine has any < 1323969993 737770 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords, I will now transform into my other alias! < 1323969998 378291 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net NICK :Ngevd < 1323969999 236805 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1_____enUS420US420&gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=IU+bloomington+poultry+science Looks line none. < 1323969999 461897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has quite a lot of buildings, so it's possible I just haven't found one yet < 1323970002 263829 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Ngevd < 1323970003 351251 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's the one with lugia nd the three islands < 1323970004 452683 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :S�~v�8��.�y[�$V&��.F.��.m*���`����uޱs�u�#͔کף�.Th.���U.>�-.�i�*�.5eu�6*q]q.ŕmL.�#�y.�:VjĎN���PH:'�.V[OK�+v��.Z�����9ɚM*������ԽH.�k��*Q�]i�a/�]95rFԴ.W�( ��B�..?.�������^�}�]�m�M� < 1323970009 582845 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oy vey, we go CRAZY when there are new people. < 1323970009 924274 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the three I've seen < 1323970011 899029 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRAAAAAAAAAAZY < 1323970013 68791 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Vastly inferior! < 1323970021 520215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: with the first gen legendary bird trio key to the plot? < 1323970023 935540 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. < 1323970027 430023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, I have watched it < 1323970028 689911 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Um, we haven't even introduced the other bots yet?? We can get way crazier. < 1323970031 372540 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, I have to study for this final at 5. < 1323970032 427276 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Say hi to fungot! < 1323970032 787409 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so i can unroll the loops it's always shorter than the other < 1323970041 573565 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's on type inferencing and logic programming :() < 1323970043 260721 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's written in Funge-98! < 1323970044 251772 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1323970044 428761 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1323970044 828367 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1323970052 114471 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "I can do Haskell!" < 1323970052 824815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: ooh, type inference < 1323970053 6974 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "I can do Haskell!" < 1323970071 710544 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("And nobody loves me.\n"); < 1323970076 147408 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's written in miniKanren... < 1323970077 239046 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nobody loves me. < 1323970079 32109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I always thought those diagrams which changed colour to show the balance of power between the birds would make a good board game, but never figured out how < 1323970088 185063 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Kanren! Didn't Oleg do that? < 1323970093 778240 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323970095 126376 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, with Dan. < 1323970096 198962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I've never heard of Kanren < 1323970097 540434 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (I have no idea if this will work)S < 1323970097 716568 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if this will work < 1323970100 451527 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Dan's teaching the class.) < 1323970103 867734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, elliott will mock me for never having heard of it < 1323970111 720799 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's a logic programming language embedded in Scheme. < 1323970114 15887 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot does underload and brainfuck(?), too < 1323970114 26764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has only ever seen Kanren referenced on Oleg's site.
< 1323970114 305681 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: what can we do it your way since it's your lang). xd. < 1323970117 685240 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello everyone? < 1323970119 388434 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And knows almost nothing about it. < 1323970125 855143 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how do you continue a /me on another line? < 1323970128 179265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: err what, that's out of character for you < 1323970135 602918 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :both /me and /msg seem inadequate < 1323970138 294068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: yep, underload/bf < 1323970141 740575 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a /me... or something < 1323970145 849603 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10663 Dan's teaching the class and Will is a guy I play starcraft with. < 1323970151 60042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: definitely /msg is better than /me, although I agree it isn't perfect < 1323970154 648677 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egobot can do... < 1323970169 413964 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!userinterps < 1323970169 743919 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Installed user interpreters: acro aol austro bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chiqrsx9p choo cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id insanetemp jethro kraut lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 sadbf sanetemp sfedeesh sffedeesh simplename slashes svedeesh sw < 1323970173 440162 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Oh no, not another Starcraft player. < 1323970181 744968 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes at least two. < 1323970186 651333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's quite common < 1323970198 482451 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's almost as many as there are Hexhamites in here! < 1323970199 850439 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was up to platinum back in March, but my thesis and grad school have been eating my skills. < 1323970200 130935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rot47 abcde < 1323970201 57784 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :23456 < 1323970203 154455 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(How long until the bloody Starcraft/Homestuck #esoteric civil war of 2012 begins?) < 1323970210 859675 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or the Hexham/Helsinki war, I suppose.) < 1323970215 502235 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It could go either way.) < 1323970219 655647 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Homestuck? < 1323970223 498301 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323970224 295307 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That ... that is an unlikely war in the real world :P < 1323970227 932785 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :::::D < 1323970230 6149 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1323970235 90907 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: A very long webcomic. < 1323970242 721438 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very short, too, in a way < 1323970243 26158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: this is probably a bad conversation to appear in the middle of < 1323970243 428375 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what properties of hexham inspire esolang < 1323970244 373632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Good thing this is IRC, then! < 1323970253 366601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's nowhere near as long as Mezzacotta < 1323970265 16384 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :How 'bout Minecraft? We can get the TRIFECTA < 1323970266 327835 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: YET. < 1323970281 615694 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The Minecrafters seceded like a year ago, dude! < 1323970287 953426 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Hexham? < 1323970294 280926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: a town in the UK < 1323970295 544988 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All attempts to google it end poorly. < 1323970297 105563 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1323970297 287020 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: A considerably shorter webcomic in Finland. < 1323970299 705948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is /just/ large enough for me to have heard of it < 1323970315 575887 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helsinki is a Hexham-based RTS game with population ~10k. < 1323970318 610765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott currently lives there, so does Ngevd < 1323970330 483332 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems the two most popular places for esolangers to live are Hexham and Helsinki < 1323970349 34366 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to get a friend into esolanging < 1323970354 844329 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he lives in Corbridge... < 1323970359 105272 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So he won't :( < 1323970377 242544 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for the exam, I need to know Monads (mostly just state and reader), type inferencing, logic programming (converting to, reading and explaining output). < 1323970380 836484 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will be... fun. < 1323970382 77054 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will never ally with a despicable Corbdigea... Corbridigia... Corbri... I give up.
< 1323970383 458284 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: this is probably a bad conversation to appear in the middle of <-- okay, I just wanted to check for lambdabot messages really < 1323970398 905490 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Not just type inference but type inferen/cing/? < 1323970401 336576 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ten times more verbed! < 1323970407 499707 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Vorpal Hi. < 1323970407 708324 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1323970409 415790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: #haskell would have been safer < 1323970411 478851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, .. < 1323970411 711983 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1323970416 359644 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: Dude, in #esoteric the 13-yr-olds know those. Ba-dum tish. < 1323970421 710991 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1323970423 502889 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you want "Corstopitan" < 1323970424 640657 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, nevermind then. < 1323970428 194283 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323970446 406586 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, really? I'm kind of busy and not about to really join into the discussion, but why is it a bad conversation to appear in the middle of? < 1323970455 780318 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use Latin when available and not stupid < 1323970456 976428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much context required < 1323970466 828918 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "Oxonian" and "Novacastrian" < 1323970487 751280 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Novocastrian < 1323970489 679308 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sez google < 1323970493 821857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: what do you mean by "logic programming"? I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but am unsure at how to expan that name for it < 1323970507 945771 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Prolog, surely < 1323970508 238330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: just try with Birmingham, it doesn't work < 1323970511 772384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, Kanren :P < 1323970513 999902 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Prolog-alikes, I mean < 1323970516 793035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, OK < 1323970524 84510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that's what it meant, but it didn't seem to make sense in context < 1323970524 846846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah. < 1323970528 792437 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't say Kanren is much like Prolog, to be honest. < 1323970532 256021 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's easy, residents of Birmingham are referred to as "bums" < 1323970537 105637 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: birminghamiltonian < 1323970540 258902 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the original Latin. < 1323970552 472144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hmm… < 1323970595 581630 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(diff) (hist) . . Language list‎; 09:06 . . (+215) . . 149.255.39.58 (Talk) (That's fine for the House and Senate but for president, there is no way any conservative should vote for either Democrat that will be stuffed down our throats next year. The House is the grand prize.) < 1323970599 492141 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a good spam edit summary. < 1323970644 284773 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit now I have the song from pokemon 2000 stuck in my head < 1323970656 654948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, it's not like I can protect the language list < 1323970660 472754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can, but it'd be pointless < 1323970665 405434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, counterproductive < 1323970669 18453 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So glad I never watched a Pookieman movie. < 1323970669 394486 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I didn't tell you to :P < 1323970674 756181 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or had any of the games. < 1323970675 422306 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: WHAT? < 1323970681 306524 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or could name more than two Pookiemans. < 1323970684 735942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know < 1323970684 913654 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Watching at least two is mandatory < 1323970688 378289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: which two? < 1323970694 374461 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Uhh, but do you not, to quote an anonymous poet, wanna be the very best, like no-one ever was? < 1323970698 116749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect you to have at least one in short-term memory as it was mentioned earlier < 1323970701 943253 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I named a Pokemon after you! < 1323970707 223174 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Pikachu and Squirtle (if I'm spelling that right) < 1323970707 902887 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's now a Kirlia! < 1323970714 586599 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Not even Bulbasaur? < 1323970716 109861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: indeed you are < 1323970726 36322 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The games are also awesome < 1323970729 676175 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know that names one, but I couldn't associate it with the actual Pookieman. < 1323970735 681743 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Leaf turtle. < 1323970738 105960 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Angry leaf turtle. < 1323970741 297518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, some day there'll be someone who says "I only know one/two Pokémon", then names a really obscure one rather than one of the starters < 1323970753 249744 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Then it should be Angryliefturtlemon :P < 1323970755 42406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey, it doesn't get leaves until it evolves to Ivysaur < 1323970760 712649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: but that's /Digimon/'s naming scheme! < 1323970766 963231 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BULBS THEN!! < 1323970767 708311 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1323970769 747161 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tropius and Luvdisc < 1323970782 230332 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : you know, some day there'll be someone who says "I only know one/two Pokémon", then names a really obscure one rather than one of the starters < 1323970789 387815 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How many Pokemon games until everyone forgets the original starters? < 1323970791 351967 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we now having a Most Obscure Pokemon Naming Challenge? < 1323970795 772583 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I'm stuck on Petalburg gym < 1323970798 313186 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I actually played a bit of a pokemon game, yet I can only name Pikachu and Magikarp < 1323970805 562287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the names of any other ones < 1323970807 353264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: infinity, they keep plowing on the original starters for marketing value even when they aren't actually in the game < 1323970812 312772 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it was nice to meet you people! I'm gonna idle here, but disappear to coerce knowledge into my head. < 1323970816 385984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, Magikarp isn't a starter < 1323970827 590457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I just remember it being bloody useless < 1323970828 773619 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine if it was! < 1323970830 296403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Ruby or Sapphire? < 1323970833 718708 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emerald < 1323970835 656635 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have prepared to war with you depending on the answer. < 1323970836 829645 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway neither was Pikachu iirc in that game < 1323970837 598691 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1323970843 856773 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Lib Dem option! < 1323970844 473249 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :What other popular things do I know nothing about ... < 1323970845 467800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was some GBA one. Don't remember which. < 1323970848 539717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Pikachu's a starter in Pokémon Yellow < 1323970859 613675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was based on the plot of the anime < 1323970864 769528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's the game of the anime of the game…) < 1323970866 794214 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might have been emerald or something like that? < 1323970868 200270 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cswords: try unsafeCoerce < 1323970870 858330 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I played a bit of < 1323970882 962933 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm left wing anti-unionist. And Emerald is Green. The last Lib Dem Pokemon game was Heart Gold, and before the Gold, and before that, Yellow Pikachu Special < 1323970884 833182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, Magikarp is not a starter in any game < 1323970887 305857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's /Magikarp/ < 1323970887 486323 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emerald was very good < 1323970888 98940 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :some gem stone anyway < 1323970891 342631 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1323970899 376984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gemstone* < 1323970906 215924 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Pokemon politics are so confusing. < 1323970910 722799 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Magikarp would be the best starter. < 1323970913 85966 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY < 1323970914 599924 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it'd have been Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald < 1323970916 653419 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pokemon Horrific Crippling Failure < 1323970930 681056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, it /is/ possible to complete the game without your starter being able to deal damage < 1323970932 836114 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think the bad guys were "team magma" or something like that < 1323970935 519942 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: :D < 1323970936 283970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Sapphire < 1323970937 829531 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323970950 620828 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the newest pokedex text for magikarp < 1323970954 398348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was genuinely the missing piece of information, as one of the few things that varies between third-gen games < 1323970960 44393 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, or Emerald, but that had team Aqua as villains, too < 1323970964 552293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what is it? (and is it the same in black and white?) < 1323970978 561305 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1323970988 467045 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's the same as one of the earlier ones. Basically "It can use Splash to jump over a mountain, but the move is still entirely useless." < 1323970988 646294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in black as in white < 1323970994 397918 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, it's the same between games < 1323970994 794661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right, OK < 1323971005 603640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, how could I tell which one from a vague recollection of playing a few hours of a game I found rather repetitive. < 1323971008 109114 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323971026 151286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: were you playing on someone else's completed game? or on a new game file? < 1323971026 508651 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean sure, it was fun for the first hour or two. But then it was just more and more of the same stuff. < 1323971037 624378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think I was playing in an emulator. And new game < 1323971050 119354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323971062 366573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem with the Pokémon games is that they've mostly gotten easier over time < 1323971064 298519 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What colour was your character's headthingy band < 1323971067 945999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the result that there isn't a whole lot of skill in it any more < 1323971071 965013 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sort of like all other games? < 1323971085 584628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: that varies between third-gen games? < 1323971087 182365 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I always felt that RSE was the worst for difficulty < 1323971087 391573 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: "Games are sooo easy" -- person who doesn't play any games < 1323971091 513657 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-D < 1323971094 249064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I do believe I got near some sort of temple or something with really hard guys at the very right side of the map before I got too bored and stopped playing. < 1323971095 827110 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, between R/S and E < 1323971107 577221 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either! < 1323971108 557458 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, R/S is red, E is green < 1323971108 990284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you're assuming that Vorpal was playing as Brendon rather than as May < 1323971112 560950 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe I'm just bad, but the final fights in BW were a pain, and then the postgame does a massive difficulty spike < 1323971113 189686 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either! < 1323971113 695406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably quite a safe guess < 1323971115 400686 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :763) elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either! < 1323971117 277705 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, who? < 1323971129 4750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: err, I thought Brendon's headband was white? < 1323971129 482950 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what answer do you expect to that question? < 1323971141 524753 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, his hair was, his headband wasn't? < 1323971149 9352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: aha, that could have been it < 1323971149 625650 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, could you select gender or name or something? I don't remember. < 1323971156 838203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you can select gender < 1323971160 342765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323971172 854887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brendon and May are the canon names for the male and female characters that aren't just "Ruby" and "Sapphire" < 1323971174 455394 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-227-55.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323971178 417921 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323971204 125090 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I /probably/ played as a guy. < 1323971212 909408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : What colour was your character's headthingy band <-- you think I could remember that? < 1323971219 270618 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no chance < 1323971230 882094 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you remember a temple... < 1323971239 122242 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1323971249 463645 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :might not have actually been called a temple < 1323971253 620260 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not the oceanic museum < 1323971265 169432 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not the volcano < 1323971270 369041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, have there been /any/ temples in Pokémon? < 1323971276 219049 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in Ranger < 1323971281 932676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: definitely, agreed < 1323971285 149010 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, oh some sort of museum with somewhat educational signs in it sounds familiar now that you mention it < 1323971287 71202 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: game difficulty is perhaps the greatest allure of the game... how exactly a game comes to be difficult < 1323971289 364673 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was such a thing < 1323971292 178783 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, I might have to abort this logread < 1323971296 122612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the main games, Spear Pillar probably counts, so does that Sinjoh event place in HeartGold/SoulSilver < 1323971311 287259 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can say < 1323971312 141433 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the church in one of the cities in Pearl/Diamond < 1323971320 472565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: but that's a church < 1323971321 548822 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The Regigigas temple < 1323971324 337072 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, have there been /any/ temples in Pokémon? <-- I don't know what it was actually called. Final dungeon? Whatever. < 1323971324 547912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that count as a temple < 1323971335 656076 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :think so < 1323971336 16175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right, indeed, definitely; "Snowpoint Temple", I forgot about that < 1323971337 773397 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just reminded me of a temple, that was all < 1323971345 143384 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, hmm < 1323971349 791038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the final dungeon is Victory Road in every Pokémon game so far < 1323971350 64733 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there lava? < 1323971355 483057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in no game has it even vaguely resembled a temple < 1323971364 827167 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1323971375 815174 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :BW had a great Victory Road < 1323971379 190968 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, at some point in the game yes. There was also some water at in a lake or something :P < 1323971379 979553 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Leaf Green and Fire Red, it did a bit < 1323971383 299229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: it's /called/ Victory Road in each game, but is different in each) < 1323971397 85708 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : in no game has it even vaguely resembled a temple <-- so my memory might be off then. < 1323971404 531952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hmm, all of them are pretty good < 1323971408 115315 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could it be Mt. Pyre? < 1323971414 82008 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, no clue < 1323971420 380463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Vorpal said the bosses were to the right < 1323971423 172429 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I found RBY's to be a bit annoying < 1323971425 260160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Mt. Pyre, they're upwards < 1323971426 648160 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1323971435 998832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :shurg < 1323971438 556144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: RBY had the best puzzles < 1323971442 503332 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: true < 1323971446 389428 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we know it was sapphire or emerald I guess < 1323971448 221986 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is Pokemon Blite/Whack worth playing? < 1323971450 340803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the Victory Road puzzle is quite a good one < 1323971451 201619 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :BW's puzzles sucked < 1323971460 692753 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does it really matter which one? < 1323971465 150684 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was especially annoyed by the last gym < 1323971466 257950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's not as good as some of the other Pokémon games, but it's still quite good < 1323971472 809853 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which the NPCs keep talking about as if it's a real headscratcher < 1323971473 866798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's extremely linear, unlike most of the others < 1323971474 168221 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not < 1323971477 190220 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the only other one I've played is Sapphire < 1323971479 926031 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only have one direction to go < 1323971495 100356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's /literally/ linear, in that the accessible-before-endgame world map is literally topologically equivalent to a line < 1323971501 540563 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323971508 229186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except Anville Town, but it's intended for competitive players and most other players don't spot it at all on their first run through < 1323971514 589668 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HG/SS are definitely the best < 1323971520 88567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: agreed < 1323971550 462261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Black/White are pretty streamlined and low on annoyances, anyway < 1323971560 550179 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that, probably the original G/S < 1323971576 135984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the look about it of a game in an established series that isn't trying to annoy anyone and isn't trying to do anything vastly amazing and new < 1323971580 588942 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really enjoyed FR/LG too, probably above B/W < 1323971580 765757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the innovations are in the graphics < 1323971592 597462 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :D/P are the worst in my opinion < 1323971597 138913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interesting < 1323971611 312890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if you ignore the battle system < 1323971614 17967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, I might play it if DS emulation is good enough; I probably don't care enough to play it on a physical DS < 1323971621 125973 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What would you say is the worst? < 1323971629 184644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Black/White have anti-emulator code, although it's probably been patched around by now < 1323971640 467433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, I haven't actually played FR/LG < 1323971647 710465 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah < 1323971656 169487 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway there are two major problems I have with the pokemon games: 1) to me they get repetitive after a few hours 2) Nintendo released multiple versions of the same game basically. I mean, the difference between red/green, sapphire/ruby are basically just that a different team are the bad guys. Sure it is cheaper for nintendo, but I don't think it is fair towards the buyers really < 1323971657 83530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all good in different ways < 1323971661 882799 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1323971665 123557 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "fair"? < 1323971666 37303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :R/B hasn't held up all too well with time, I think < 1323971668 292549 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you buy one and exactly one of them < 1323971669 853884 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree < 1323971677 627449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although all the glitches that have been discovered since make it fun just for that < 1323971678 120212 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the buyers end up paying... um, the exact same amount as they would < 1323971694 741676 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :RBY don't have the improvements in interface that started around 3rd gen < 1323971719 681498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, HGSS wins on interface, hands down < 1323971723 326283 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323971735 658783 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of annoying to me that they didn't bring the good features back < 1323971736 328553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, right, and then you miss out on content from the other game. They could just have put both stories in the same game with a selection at the start. The difference are rather small from what I understand. < 1323971741 935469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the AceHack to gold/silver < 1323971742 669326 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there is no content from the other game < 1323971743 127727 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could play HGSS without the ABXY buttons < 1323971748 709983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: apart from one pokemon and like < 1323971752 212701 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mirror storyline < 1323971753 669325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can trade < 1323971766 34549 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have one game, you can mathematically derive the other one < 1323971767 620406 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, to me, story is important < 1323971775 20750 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Emerald's is better anyway < 1323971775 310612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the explanation to that is that multiple Pokémon games are developed at once < 1323971776 40835 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the stories are literally identical, you just s/word/inverse/ < 1323971781 13619 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1323971789 312042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Diamond and Pearl and FireRed/LeafGreen were being developed at the same time < 1323971794 529690 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and different enemy base maps and such. < 1323971796 389778 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sapphire: team magma want to get rid of water!!! ruby: team aqua want to get rid of land!!! < 1323971799 957437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know for a fact that that's true with HGSS/BW, but it wouldn't surprise me at all < 1323971802 972860 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not to my knowledge < 1323971807 624275 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully Gy will have the non-suck interface from HGSS < 1323971809 725991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the enemy base maps are the same < 1323971817 51658 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What really frustrates me about BW is the inconsistency < 1323971820 494864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh really? < 1323971826 558932 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, anyone who cares most about story is going to be incredibly disappointed by the pokemon games :P < 1323971836 431866 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are menus where you can't use the touch screen, and menus where you can't use the buttons < 1323971839 474791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, they've actually made an effort with the story in BW < 1323971839 651183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so they have to do neutral bases then, rather than theme them after the team? < 1323971843 839688 :NihilistDandy!~ND@stu-99-155-171-184.champlain.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1323971852 270705 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: huh < 1323971862 760210 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true < 1323971863 893199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is pokemon an RPG? I think it kind of is in that genre < 1323971866 302319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only is it internally consistent, it's even vaguely plausible, and has something resembling plot < 1323971867 835867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1323971873 754674 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ofc it is < 1323971879 425076 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And, most importantly, emotional investment < 1323971882 430179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then, how can you say story is not important < 1323971884 916720 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found myself feeling sorry for N by the end of it < 1323971887 379529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: meh, I ignore that < 1323971892 793907 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because it isn't? < 1323971895 448923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RPGs have gameplay, too < 1323971900 11464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can feel sorry for N, but if you think about it, the ending treats him pretty well < 1323971918 731953 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"His full name was revealed to be Natural Harmonia Gropius" < 1323971926 645620 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sure, but story is kind of important to them. Much more so than many other genres. < 1323971927 644406 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :--bulbapedia < 1323971944 941682 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It certainly does; that doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for his history < 1323971946 623434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that his actions throughout most of the game can be interpreted as an attempt to find out the truth with respect to something in particular, and at the end, he actually discovers it < 1323971963 355562 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ooh, it's spoiler-free spoiler communication < 1323971965 244084 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is always fun! < 1323971970 708274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed < 1323971972 429047 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to deduce the spoilers involved through pure reason
< 1323971994 524588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the whole point in that communication style is that you probably can figure it out if you want to, but it takes enough mental effort that you won't do it without trying < 1323971998 418655 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: /most/ of his actions can. Initially he's not; it's encountering the player that causes him to doubt himself and seek the truth < 1323972007 450311 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, and everyone else. But especially the player) < 1323972021 620464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hmm; that's one of the possible interpretations, I'm not sure it's the only one < 1323972029 187066 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game < 1323972034 306849 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway there is little variation in the battles. It is just basically the same all the time. Sure there are different pokemons and leveling them up and items and different techniques and so on. But it is all just "think a bit, select action from menu" < 1323972037 660589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, if half the world's electorates were anything like N, the world would be a much better place < 1323972041 137511 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really enjoy that sort of combat < 1323972045 721253 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Mr. Emulator! How good is DeSmuME? < 1323972051 17057 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hah, true < 1323972054 575132 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game < 1323972057 101339 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :764) ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game < 1323972058 8394 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fairly okay for some games at least < 1323972081 766444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think desmume is what's used for researching information in Pokémon < 1323972084 734625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like RNG research, etc < 1323972094 924248 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think I played two games in it. Was a while ago. < 1323972096 9637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Black/White have DRM that attempts to detect it < 1323972106 184487 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, that's promising; although it might be just because it's open source, rather than an especially good emulator < 1323972107 180625 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not bsnes quality, not even zsnes quality. But okay. < 1323972111 318434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, if you want to play the games, you should really buy them if you think it's worth the money < 1323972114 231471 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it possibly easier to automate < 1323972125 467232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, makes it easier to implement features like rerecording < 1323972153 482085 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I presume that future pokemon games are going to be on the 3DS? < 1323972154 573072 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I would buy it if Nintendo would sell me ROMs < 1323972174 666088 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but given the information I have, I don't think it'd be worth the hassle of playing it on a physical system < 1323972193 677472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not confirmed, but it seems pretty likely < 1323972204 516901 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323972212 354700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially considering the 3DS's sales figure; Nintendo probably want to put out a Pokémon game to persuade people to buy the console < 1323972216 904005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I wonder how they will make use of the 3D technology in a pokemon game... < 1323972231 633397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Pokémon's been based on a 3D engine since Platinum? < 1323972233 804130 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they've been doing that for multiple generations by now... < 1323972236 352221 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh okay < 1323972251 630491 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well the overworld has been < 1323972253 384128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although all the sprites are 2D < 1323972254 40421 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok guys we are short on vocabulary and i am not a smart guy < 1323972255 994835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: right < 1323972260 550696 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets clarify :D < 1323972261 629629 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the 3DS isn't actually a DS < 1323972271 755915 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some of the battle animations are 3D as well < 1323972273 324077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, first person perspective? < 1323972275 173329 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :regular 3d vs stereoscopic 3d < 1323972288 315654 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 3DS is the successor platform < 1323972289 540051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: seems plausible < 1323972291 192055 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even nintendo64 pokemon has regular 3d < 1323972291 375510 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually pretty cool < 1323972300 250782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and it's backwards-compatible one generation, just like most Nintendo portables < 1323972309 511236 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well look at ones like Surf, or the Pledges < 1323972313 31263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the moment, its major problem is that it doesn't have too many good games < 1323972318 687936 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, I was just so used to the endless DS revisions < 1323972322 451797 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nintendo ds was super backwards compatible < 1323972325 112078 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I assumed the 3DS was still basically a DS < 1323972331 726455 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: No, it went back one gen < 1323972333 361273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the games fans I've talked to agree that Super Mario 3D Land is very good < 1323972339 78298 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I need to get that < 1323972341 878521 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Mario Kart 7 < 1323972343 677583 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DS could play original gameboy games i think < 1323972344 790974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: it's the GBA you're thinking of, that went all the way back to the original Game Boy < 1323972349 610628 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.... < 1323972354 705137 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe.. < 1323972359 312957 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again < 1323972360 850724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: whereas Mario Kart 7 is "it's a Mario Kart game; do you like those?" < 1323972365 110397 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Incidentally: What is with 7 that the seventh piece of software in series X gets called X 7 regardless of prior naming schemes?) < 1323972369 860145 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: True, but I do :) < 1323972375 201749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1323972377 653471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : most of the games fans I've talked to agree that Super Mario 3D Land is very good <-- well of course a mario game is going to help selling the platform < 1323972384 688083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reviewers have been really stuck on it < 1323972392 201255 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Incidentally: What is with 7 that the seventh piece of software in series X gets called X 7 regardless of prior naming schemes?) < 1323972396 695787 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that is probably one of the most known game series in the world < 1323972397 380714 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :super mario is a bit old hat < 1323972397 968153 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: dammit, now I need to find that gif again < 1323972399 646849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they can't say much about it except that it's just like the others in the series < 1323972418 220604 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 2D mario games that Nintendo's made over the past few years have all been very good < 1323972421 77017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: well, some people that I respect the opinions of (but don't always agree of) call Super Mario 3D Land the best Mario game ever < 1323972424 194099 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :NSMB and NSMBW < 1323972439 324131 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I assume there will be/already is some zelda game for 3DS as well? < 1323972447 112777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ocarina of Time, didn't you hear? < 1323972448 536176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they ported it < 1323972451 774422 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1323972454 358684 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION liked NSMBW but not as much as SMG; this seemingly-irrelevant comparison is made relevant by my playing them at the same time
< 1323972465 838205 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, upgraded the graphics I hope? < 1323972469 549122 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: DeSmuME is imperfect, but still a decent DS emulator. < 1323972470 235919 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMG1 was a true work of art < 1323972471 64250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's apparently the best Ocarina of Time version ever, although a little redundant if you've played the original < 1323972473 982579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1323972481 338776 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they fixed a bunch of flaws < 1323972482 921299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: SM3DL is made by the SMG people < 1323972488 508923 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, cool < 1323972495 525730 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMG2 was exactly that, sadly < 1323972496 145350 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I liked SMG2, even if it was a bit too similar, and I missed the hub world < 1323972506 260979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : and it's apparently the best Ocarina of Time version ever, although a little redundant if you've played the original <-- "best ever" out of 2? < 1323972512 847705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: out of 3, I believe < 1323972513 566723 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P29JNk7945k < 1323972514 718514 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1323972515 636793 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: this perception is again made relevant by my playing SMG2 like a month after SMG1 < 1323972518 900156 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what was the third one? < 1323972521 239454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wii < 1323972522 430445 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| quick, rush out and buy uh.. (googles) phantom hourglass and spirit tracks... uhh.. go. go. go. < 1323972527 77053 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it would probably have been a disappointment if I'd waited 3 years < 1323972554 143021 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: hourglass was meh; spirit tracks was pretty good < 1323972562 475499 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway Ocarina of Time was a really good game. < 1323972566 317161 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMG2's main disappointment is that its version of Luigi's Purple Coins is really easy :'( < 1323972569 814429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: right < 1323972575 290908 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: YES < 1323972580 52877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which of the games is The Perfect Run in? < 1323972581 609235 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :even all the green stars were fairly easy < 1323972583 524946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also I liked zelda 2. *waits for reaction* < 1323972589 588272 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :most involved just doing a triple jump + spin < 1323972592 254645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: which one was that? < 1323972594 927848 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i emulate windwaker on my pc but it leaves me with that painful feeling that my pc is way too old < 1323972596 305860 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you realized this, they were simple < 1323972602 282751 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the one that wasn't very much like any other zelda game < 1323972604 505766 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: SMG2 < 1323972604 806178 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for the NES < 1323972606 727943 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had economic freedom to have always up to date PC < 1323972607 352182 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just googled it, didn't recall the name < 1323972617 725994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, OK, there's your Luigi's Purple Coins equivalent < 1323972624 303247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I forget what it is < 1323972634 44284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it unlocks when you've done everything else in the game, and is freakishly difficult, although mostly in the fake-difficulty sort of way < 1323972638 402394 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, was windwaker the one with cell shading? < 1323972651 609740 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you talking about the green stars? < 1323972654 444366 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what is it, though? < 1323972660 51350 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1323972663 269079 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the one with all the bosses? < 1323972664 589813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: those are one of the prerequisites < 1323972665 868691 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah... its a sweet game. except my pc is not built for emulating gamecube < 1323972666 606707 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you only have 1 heart? < 1323972668 104511 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh < 1323972670 100410 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I youtube'd it) < 1323972672 960695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for a YouTube video < 1323972673 317053 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have missed this then < 1323972679 129742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it has bosses, and platformy sections, and other things too < 1323972683 215950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no continues and one health point < 1323972687 241181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I did that < 1323972689 926939 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can run it, but i have to turn down the resolution < 1323972691 183162 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, are nintendo still basically aiming their platforms just at kids? (I mean, as far as I know games like Battlefield and so on are basically PS3/xbox/PC) < 1323972691 974734 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm < 1323972693 109626 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I did < 1323972705 217530 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly got all the green stars, but that's not saying much < 1323972708 567470 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the game proper is so easy < 1323972710 773640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, is there actually a good gamecube emulator nowdays? heh < 1323972710 950063 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and.. also areas where there is a lot of grass in windwaker makes framerate drop for me on my old pc in meulator < 1323972712 578762 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes and no. < 1323972715 675568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, I'll link a speedrun of it, because they tend to be more fun to watch for really difficult bits than regular runs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1zValdb0y4 < 1323972725 387976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, got a link? < 1323972734 887375 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was watching a 4 minute one but I'll watch this one instead :P < 1323972741 753986 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ill just find the name of it < 1323972746 870845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that works too < 1323972747 51934 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wow, 4:3 < 1323972748 717568 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1323972755 956690 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, if it's what I'm thinking of, it is easier than Luigi's Purple Coins by far < 1323972762 920662 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The critical points are a) The Wii's graphical capabilities lag behind its competitors and b) Nintendo's approach to online play is /very/ kid-oriented < 1323972772 579601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah < 1323972777 208032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm < 1323972788 304979 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its basically just caled dolphin < 1323972788 481575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually know people who say that Luigi's Purple Coins is not as hard as it's widely considered < 1323972793 948250 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because all these sections are from previous levels < 1323972794 338154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that it gets easier with practice < 1323972798 323606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed, they are < 1323972798 674211 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and SMG2 is not very difficult < 1323972801 105191 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes < 1323972805 110587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what about non-online play? I just can't imagine a TES game on a nintendo platform. Ever. < 1323972809 531934 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the time I beat it with Mario, doing so with Luigi was easy < 1323972815 25147 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was easy with luigi < 1323972816 16900 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my personality flaws mean if i ever try to get anything nice for myself someone else will sabotage my efforts. its very frustrating < 1323972818 53043 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Luigi's Purple Coins is really shallow difficulty < 1323972827 108531 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just fail in stupid ways a few hundred times and then get it without trying < 1323972830 755779 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's been Call of Duty, James Bond, etc. < 1323972834 313746 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's really aggravating < 1323972836 510940 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323972836 690897 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No reason it couldn't happen < 1323972842 304060 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :except system power < 1323972845 763891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also yeah I heard the Wii sucks < 1323972857 758791 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: depends how you define "good".. if you cannot afford a gamecube,,, it is the only option < 1323972862 30933 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically, every time you play it you feel like you have to be doing something wrong < 1323972866 544092 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's what it felt like to me < 1323972866 720742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, and skyrim isn't a high end game, at least not when you compare to high end PC-exclusive titles. < 1323972871 676621 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, like Witcher 2 < 1323972875 144141 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if your pc kicks ass... the dolphin emulator likewise kicks ass < 1323972907 683047 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, pretty sure I've done The Perfect Run < 1323972914 243263 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :computing power is probably the largest reason that Nintendo announced their next console first < 1323972914 738055 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my personality flaws mean if i ever try to get anything nice for myself (like a kickass PC) someone else will sabotage my efforts (taking my things, taking my savings, pawning my things, giving my things away as a gift to someone else). its very frustrating < 1323972920 501764 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah.. venting < 1323972925 881098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well my PC might not kick ass, but I'm sure it could propel a donkey quite a far distance if I wanted to. < 1323972939 965115 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: how does that have to do with your personality < 1323972950 794506 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you would be surprised. < 1323972974 86966 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you're non-confrontational so people take advantage of you or something? < 1323972981 442508 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw does anyone here know about compressive sensing theory? < 1323972995 70737 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: essentially, yes. :-) < 1323973004 388784 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: :( You should be more confrontational < 1323973013 79500 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I /need/ to learn more on the subject, and I would like some good resources on it) < 1323973043 210800 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: just as the rich get richer, the non-confrontational become less confrontational < 1323973053 639288 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm actually I might have done grandmaster galaxy < 1323973058 331568 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am starting to think it's actually systemic < 1323973147 145910 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took me many years to realize that the people who take advantage of me aren't to blame for my being non-confrontational < 1323973156 706704 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even now i struggle to be sure of that < 1323973165 181413 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1323973192 911485 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gives me insight into third world countries < 1323973285 460557 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: find a friend to lean on < 1323973303 881924 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a lawyer to sue with < 1323973312 295421 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :either works ;P < 1323973318 117151 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323973415 724479 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its ok.. somehow.. this universe curses everyone with problems day in day out. < 1323973433 138068 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but you shouldn't denied your own property < 1323973436 288340 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no escape < 1323973437 468820 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION achieves bingo
< 1323973439 20669 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*be < 1323973445 410778 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make your problems suck less though < 1323973454 610319 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: grats < 1323973463 557455 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i couldn't have done it without your help < 1323973470 479306 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if applying sufficient logic, i am a colonialist < 1323973480 219313 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : >:-) < 1323973542 167228 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not being denied "much" property < 1323973549 585245 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all exaggerated in my head < 1323973565 208487 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its hard to explain ehehhe < 1323973573 197621 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1323973591 950580 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. i escaped the people who really did deny me a lot < 1323973601 700667 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good < 1323973622 880593 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother is a bit more weird about it < 1323973672 548016 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the important thing, more important than anyting else is my side of the problem < 1323973772 16436 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323973788 389179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you know how Agora has trouble if every judge gets recused from a case? < 1323973800 712947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something similar may happen in SCO vs. IBM < 1323973803 494069 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1323973820 175580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only a finite number of judges in Utah; by some calculations, there are only two left < 1323973866 902895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both have reasonably obvious reasons to recuse themselves < 1323973892 355294 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1323973894 598296 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1323973897 924062 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I suggest you practice saying the following phrase: Fuck off. < 1323973928 551117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: based on following it at Groklaw < 1323973935 705784 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this video is kind of funny in a way http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=tZ46Ot4_lLo < 1323973938 353337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest article is http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20111214164953543 but is missing most of the context < 1323974015 546387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: aha, here's the context: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20111210010653565 < 1323974074 281552 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow sometimes I forget everything about interfaces. < 1323974080 210707 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just tried to tab-complete a word in irssi
< 1323974081 591984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: which meaning of "interface"? < 1323974086 682768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: oh, I do that quite a bit, too < 1323974097 473840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I changed my nick to a word I was having trouble spelling, to make it easier to tab-complete < 1323974101 404677 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tapped the tab key madly. WHY ARE YOU NOT COMPLETING MY WORD.
< 1323974115 654811 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-67-43.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323974115 832822 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@121-74-67-43.telstraclear.net QUIT :Changing host < 1323974115 832964 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1323974116 292495 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... wow < 1323974179 897213 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also now I have a bad habit of typing ctrl+s when I mean ctrl+f in many programs < 1323974182 928904 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to emacs. < 1323974195 759004 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use / < 1323974199 899125 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works in most sane program < 1323974200 151906 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323974205 750632 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like less! < 1323974206 77446 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/s/ < 1323974218 348721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, you deleted the end of that string < 1323974221 871278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now it's infinitely long < 1323974235 171365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, I actually got the 100% ending of Braid today, complete with the waiting two hours < 1323974239 413354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, yesterday < 1323974272 966430 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1323974302 348056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most people getting into the pretentiousness of Braid have misinterpreted < 1323974304 757710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*misinterpreted it < 1323974310 181433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by time-reversing the wrong parts of the game < 1323974330 297959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what, is SCO still going? < 1323974331 556537 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1323974389 67400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they were given a loan, under mysterious circumstances < 1323974398 788884 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, by whom? < 1323974403 20244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they sold off everything but the litigation to a company called unXis that nobody seems to know much about < 1323974408 228152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: some of their former shareholders, IIRC < 1323974411 769326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323974417 658780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the point? < 1323974425 957047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said the circumstances were mysterious < 1323974445 9207 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of money scam to get money out of the company somehow? < 1323974454 704554 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the only reason to keep going that I can think of < 1323974477 202508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: everything that's going on makes it reasonably clear that there's at least one, probably two, scams somewhere < 1323974490 708926 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323974491 684422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the straightforward one seems to be being run by Ocean Park, who ended up with most of the money SCO originally had < 1323974501 394031 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1323974503 969509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in a completely legal manner, of course) < 1323974510 388015 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323974512 294020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's something much more complicated going on too, and I'm not sure what < 1323974526 534949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes you think it exists then? < 1323974535 655006 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323974537 214697 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also who are Ocean Park? < 1323974611 623626 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1323974642 954703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO's bankrupcy trustee's accountants < 1323974654 646273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the actions of various people make no sense on information currently known < 1323974665 236007 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323974669 914870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm guessing it's because there's information missing < 1323974681 420023 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :reasonable assumption < 1323974694 829092 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Santa Cruz Operation would be a good title for a heist film. < 1323974701 610413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed! < 1323974720 942384 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hope there's one going on now, so it has a possibility of being made < 1323974782 110148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :truth often makes better fiction than actual fiction < 1323974786 812044 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Potentially the loan was granted by people who just want to see novell suffer legal costs < 1323974792 437243 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh, hey. Sometime while I wasn't paying attention, that torrent came in. < 1323974800 79747 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now have a 16 MiB file called "random". < 1323974804 74550 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ...what. < 1323974809 601459 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I haven't run Transmission since I gave up the first time. < 1323974814 798934 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was while I was talking to you about it. < 1323974816 604413 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fuck? < 1323974822 385648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: indeed; or even IBM < 1323974829 470075 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, but doesn't the loosing party have pay the legal costs? < 1323974833 671088 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And I never /once/ saw a peer. < 1323974837 860906 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not if they're bankrupt < 1323974841 294807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1323974844 761713 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And I can't upload 16 megs fast enough to not notice it while I was watching Transmission. < 1323974856 716852 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also the US generally does /not/ award costs < 1323974856 894516 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I have the file. < 1323974867 925065 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one of the biggest flaws of their legal system) < 1323974872 101687 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :md5sum f6bc78d996ade6145815ab5de9d8cf3f, right? < 1323974873 751797 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: M...maybe someone generated the same random bits themselves later on? < 1323974877 928719 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I couldn't parse that < 1323974879 842145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: note that typically they have to pay the /court's/ costs, but not the other party's legal fees, which are much larger < 1323974885 236309 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323974886 375361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the costs of running a court aren't massively high < 1323974886 552163 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Correct < 1323974895 744670 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The hell. < 1323974902 907716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that really just a file of random data? < 1323974906 621800 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep < 1323974911 1768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why torrent it? < 1323974913 788348 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: He was just testing DHT. < 1323974921 601113 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hmm, maybe you actually downloaded it from me while we were talking, and Transmission just failed at showing you? < 1323974927 725877 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Could be? < 1323974928 196809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I remember elliott testing DHT like months ago < 1323974944 379038 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I WAS READING ABOUT DISTRIBUTED HASH TABLES AND WANTED TO FEEL THE MAGIC < 1323974952 677787 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I see < 1323974955 738172 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Basically, the US fails to make the courts the ideal venue for resolution of disputes < 1323974961 398441 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I find a tracker is generally more reliable :P < 1323974968 390575 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes < 1323974975 510916 :boroda_!~boroda@178.177.17.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323974978 877605 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Small claims courts are the ideal venue, though. < 1323974988 930121 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DHT works fine as soon as you get a peer < 1323974992 309846 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting a peer is the problem < 1323974994 115477 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: True. But not for large-scale claims < 1323974994 395945 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome boroda_ < 1323974995 67417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but only for claims that are actually small < 1323974995 365548 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is *primarily* because your cost consists of filing fees. < 1323974996 178984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1323974997 94127 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :boroda_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1323975000 468922 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, yes. < 1323975005 569634 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and I generally want stuff done quickly < 1323975015 482843 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DHT is fast on popular torrents < 1323975016 253805 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beyond that, the courts are the worst venue for resolution of disputes. < 1323975029 369250 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes but your test ones are not popular! < 1323975034 748413 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would literally be better off going for a duel in many cases. < 1323975037 652584 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my test ones aren't on trackers < 1323975045 284415 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1323975047 85456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aren't courts about enforcement, not resolution? < 1323975054 854084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that they have to resolve it first to know what to enforce < 1323975058 772430 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, small + no trackers = sloooow < 1323975061 889893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, with duelling then the wrong person would lose half the time < 1323975066 57976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, small as in not popular < 1323975074 399825 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: US courts handle civil and criminal cases. < 1323975075 140105 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Courts are also supposed to be about resolution < 1323975075 487767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably more, actually, as good duelists would be able to get away with almost anything, so would be more litigious < 1323975083 808696 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: actually, if you both connect to the same popular torrent, it'll go instantly < 1323975085 990588 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Civil cases are about resolving disputes. < 1323975092 759544 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two people downloading an ubuntu ISO can DHT with each other perfectly < 1323975102 13419 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*In practice*, people who can hire good lawyers are able to get away with almost anything. < 1323975105 887059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but the main purpose they're used is that the court is (typically) capable of enforcing the result < 1323975129 42776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, popular torrents are generally not DHT-only < 1323975133 445251 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, but that's because of a flawed system, not because the point isn't to resolve disputes < 1323975133 623008 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And then publish a book detailing how they did it, with the title "If I did it", and laugh all the way to the bank. < 1323975135 499265 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least with duels for resolving disputes, you can personally improve your ability at it. :P < 1323975144 316463 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or, in his case, to jail. < 1323975161 402596 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my view, courts should aim to be the ideal venue for resolving disputes; binding arbitration sucks < 1323975166 950956 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OJ Simpson, complete moron, decided to commit robbery and kidnapping afterwards. He is now serving a 33 year sentence. < 1323975181 404608 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-33.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1323975183 438150 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well yeah, but he got away with the murder, he just shot too high is all :P < 1323975184 255105 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, someone did that? < 1323975193 318648 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: OJ Simpson. < 1323975193 904074 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, popular torrents are generally not DHT-only < 1323975194 341303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably ask who OJ Simpson is < 1323975196 271499 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I never said they were < 1323975200 237037 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wow, how stupid < 1323975202 205646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of him, and know he's famous for being involved in a criminal trial < 1323975204 700425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much else < 1323975213 788889 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Some football player, mostly famous now for being acquitted for murder. < 1323975221 337689 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he wrote a book called If I Did It < 1323975227 447078 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: saying /how/ he would have committed the crime /if/ he did it < 1323975228 301580 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, then how are you able to get data on it? < 1323975229 784704 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :while maintaining his innocence < 1323975250 47796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm; such behaviour wouldn't seem sensible for persuading people of your innocence < 1323975260 285701 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it eventually got published with this cover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/If_I_did_It_2.png < 1323975265 46574 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If you just punch in the infohash, your client will use DHT. < 1323975265 810861 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The US's stupid double jeopardy rule < 1323975266 686629 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:If_I_did_It_2.png to make ais523 happy) < 1323975281 517599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wow the small "if" there < 1323975282 362694 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Everyone's convinced he actually committed it, anyways. < 1323975303 241992 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "It was originally planned that the book would be promoted via a television special featuring an interview with Simpson on Fox Broadcasting Company. Fox and HarperCollins are both owned by the News Corporation. This special had the longer title, O. J. Simpson: If I Did It, Here's How It Happened. Like the original release of the book, the special was canceled." < 1323975317 968587 :boroda_!~boroda@178.177.17.22 PART #esoteric :"Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)" < 1323975344 163534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and he was eventually thrown in jail for something else, presumably? < 1323975362 354450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, by "presumably" I mean "based on what was said slightly earlier in-channel" < 1323975378 2234 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no double jeopardy. But he decided "Well if I got away with murder, I'll turn into a full-on gangster." and kidnapped and robbed and wtf dumbass. < 1323975540 506949 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the double jeopardy rule in the US is retarded < 1323975578 994765 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just states that you can't be tried twice for the same crime, right? < 1323975676 799130 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1323975687 327018 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are two levels of stupid in it < 1323975706 821541 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :First, due to the principle of separate sovereigns, someone can be tried twice; once by the state and once by the federal government < 1323975723 218530 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the federal government can't, except by law, limit the states < 1323975731 871300 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second, it is interpreted as being absolute < 1323975750 586498 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You can't be tried twice for the same crime in the same jurisdiction. < 1323975757 340014 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are acquitted, the government can appeal only by grounds that the trial was manifestly unfair (i.e. the judge or jury was bribed, or the like) < 1323975763 600150 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not particularly stupid? < 1323975767 353378 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The government can't appeal on any other error of law < 1323975769 330374 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you commit the same crime in two states, congrats, you can be charged thrice. < 1323975777 539572 :cswords_!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323975813 166442 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yeah, if you get an error in law happening you're basically walking away. < 1323975832 195608 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the police here *love* making those. < 1323975867 132208 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Canada, the government can appeal, but only errors of law since the jury is assumed to be correct in its verdict (which makes sense) < 1323975963 531115 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What really bothers me is that juries are instructed to only focus on strict matters of fact or law, even though in US court tradition and law, it's perfectly acceptable for juries to go "We find this law unjust; we find not guilty"... < 1323975968 982978 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323976035 177381 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: forget what the legal term for that is < 1323976046 85355 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a bizarre position in Canadian law < 1323976054 905878 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jury nullification. < 1323976060 967249 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323976074 198267 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Canadian law it is legal, but not a right of the defendent to have the jury informed of it < 1323976081 753843 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 100% legal in US law, judges just try very hard to get a mistrial if someone dares mention it. < 1323976095 739110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: actually, the lawyers for the sides select for juries who haven't heard of it < 1323976102 634835 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes, that too. < 1323976103 746828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(having lawyer-selected juries is a little insane in its own way) < 1323976125 317285 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't they use the same process in the UK? < 1323976127 405061 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, if juries were *sane* they'd go for a random sample. < 1323976153 469961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: 12 random people plus 1 random alternate < 1323976158 361551 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323976160 561977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can only be objected to if obviously biased, IIRC < 1323976164 857203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as being related to the defendant < 1323976169 15755 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There's no preremptory objections? < 1323976175 757860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there might be one per side < 1323976179 815694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly nowhere as many as in the US < 1323976192 903583 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're unbound in the US, IIRC. < 1323976201 247689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden doesn't use juries except in a few special types of cases. < 1323976203 607590 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You basically have the lawyers *selecting* jurors. < 1323976210 795002 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : What really bothers me is that juries are instructed to only focus on strict matters of fact or law, even though in US court tradition and law, it's perfectly acceptable for juries to go "We find this law unjust; we find not guilty"... < 1323976217 32540 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wikipedia tells me it was eliminated in 1988 < 1323976219 149164 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc related to right of free speech stuff, then you get a jury in Sweden < 1323976221 157645 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, not < 1323976230 452059 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but their *instructions* are to only focus on strict matters of fact and law. < 1323976230 628266 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The US doesn't use juries unless the defendent requests it, IIRC. < 1323976232 746357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that'd explain why I thought they didn't have it < 1323976241 265356 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and they usually request that? < 1323976242 842301 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: Don't they use the same process in the UK? < 1323976250 618215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the jury instructions are also written by the lawyers < 1323976254 449568 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not really. < 1323976257 141073 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scots law differs significantly from English. < 1323976259 300239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, they tend to disagree a lot about what they should say, for obvious reasons < 1323976270 67871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I see < 1323976270 284970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh right, I was talking about the England/Wales court system < 1323976275 650989 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have juries of 15, and verdicts are by majority, for instanc. < 1323976276 157637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's diferent in Scotland < 1323976276 622169 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scots law isn't even in the tradition of common law. < 1323976278 117043 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*instance < 1323976291 578416 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are 3 possible verdicts. < 1323976296 862884 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :3? < 1323976297 652374 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Nobody cares Mr. Phantom "Waah Scotland matters" Hoover. < 1323976305 482864 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guilty, not guilty, not proven. < 1323976310 227415 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it more distinct from English law than US law is. :P < 1323976312 715945 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Canada, it's 20 for high treason or murder, 12 if there is a prison term of 5 years or more on the line, and 4 otherwise < 1323976322 116009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what happens after "not proven"? < 1323976323 331884 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: hmm, shouldn't it be "innocent" if there's another "dunno" one? < 1323976338 865109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hexham's near enough to Scotland for Scotland to matter to you, surely? < 1323976348 917345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd probably be at risk of invasion if the Scots ever cared to try < 1323976365 726013 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I find this Scottish system quite interesting < 1323976382 380842 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be literally no functional difference between not proven and not guilty. < 1323976402 109138 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote don't even < 1323976404 629173 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1323976407 165212 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's 'proven', not 'guilty'. < 1323976408 327417 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote first! < 1323976410 750436 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw didn't some party that wanted to separate from the UK win the Scottish election? Whatever happened to that? < 1323976411 207969 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :662) Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? You stole it from us first! < 1323976413 497261 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ < 1323976417 397714 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where all the warring goes on < 1323976433 106835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right, indeed < 1323976444 463358 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Berwick? < 1323976452 629109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's the SNP; their problem is that they can't make Scotland independent without a referendum < 1323976466 23762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the statistics indicate that if they try a referendum, which they can do, they'll lose it < 1323976472 759905 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323976473 749329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're trying to find excuses to not do it yet < 1323976482 606288 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must be awkward for them < 1323976489 459548 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the heck would Scotland want to become independent, anyways? Near as I can tell, it's only to their benefit. < 1323976489 733551 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, lose by how much? < 1323976494 571873 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just waiting for more english pansies to die < 1323976496 730067 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To the detriment of England, but hey. < 1323976497 244966 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323976501 243358 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, something something something oil. < 1323976509 47070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't know, and you could look it up as easily as I could < 1323976509 351104 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also EU. < 1323976524 480867 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: EU? More like EUuuuuwwwwww, that's gross! < 1323976526 142124 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) < 1323976526 484198 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What, becoming a more proper EU member, or leaving it? < 1323976531 716650 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I thought you might remember if it was a close thing or far from being likely. < 1323976532 734518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, the SNP wants Scotland to stay fully part of the Commonwealth < 1323976533 812101 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, more proper. < 1323976536 356124 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit thundurus, why can't you be nice like kyurem was? :( < 1323976541 128396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think it's somewhere in between < 1323976544 604734 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323976551 562576 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is good enough for me < 1323976556 106999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I still haven't caught kyurem yet; I need to manipulate it to perfect stats like I did with Zekrom < 1323976556 967360 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) < 1323976559 615701 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :765) (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) < 1323976559 791893 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A Commonwealth country, or a Commonwealth realm? < 1323976567 39792 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) <-- they do? < 1323976568 54371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1323976568 380643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't know the difference < 1323976568 668512 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: RNG manipulation? < 1323976571 818375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: of course < 1323976578 316714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only time I've ever used a Max Repel in a no-encounter area < 1323976579 913742 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A Commonwealth realm has the Queen as monarch. < 1323976586 208733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to count steps < 1323976590 454459 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Commonwealth country is just a country in the Commonwealth. < 1323976594 737165 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I thought legend stats were generated in advance in modern games? < 1323976597 476851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in that case, I don't know the answer < 1323976600 366478 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : coppro: I still haven't caught kyurem yet; I need to manipulate it to perfect stats like I did with Zekrom <-- huh? < 1323976604 446578 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pokemon? < 1323976610 116152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: they can be, but the precise meaning of "in advance" differs from pokemon to pokemon < 1323976611 629297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1323976613 464959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323976615 640720 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah < 1323976623 231770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of Zekrom, it's generated upon talking to it < 1323976631 537191 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by 'in advance', I meant game start < 1323976636 514018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, nowhere near that early < 1323976656 582130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's typically either the event where you encounter them, the event that makes them possible to encounter (i.e. adds them to the map), or beating the elite four < 1323976656 808186 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If they were to *just* seperate right now, then it'd end up being a realm... But it wouldn't be too hard to imagine Scotland also getting rid of its monarchy. < 1323976658 518767 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds almost as if they wanted people to manipulate the RNG then < 1323976671 54991 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might do that in a future game; in this game, I'm not doing anything like that < 1323976678 369006 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Seems like it. < 1323976678 790669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they took deliberate steps to make the RNG more complicated in fifth gen < 1323976683 663649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ended up making it easier as a result < 1323976689 58331 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot of randomness in the games. < 1323976689 235064 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323976701 637098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I meant, why not just generate those stats on new game < 1323976705 847244 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) <-- they do? < 1323976706 29323 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : why? < 1323976709 486819 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *whoosh* < 1323976718 8874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because then people would manipulate them on new game < 1323976721 715456 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that was not obviously a joke < 1323976746 921091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, trainer ID manipulation has been done on new game routinely in gen IV, because there, shiny flawless legendaries are impossible without particular trainer ID/secret ID combinations < 1323976750 752751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people manipulate for those < 1323976761 60863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right, but they can just manipulate it later now, and it is easier to check the results if you don't have to play through the whole game. < 1323976778 219205 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you would have got it if you read his previous line < 1323976784 280714 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What resource do you use for the RNG? < 1323976792 727433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: depends on which game < 1323976807 157177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for fifth gen, and various things that I can't otherwise handle in fourth gen, mono + RNG Reporter < 1323976814 914955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's the most complete program in that respect < 1323976831 525977 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mono as in the .NET environment?! < 1323976838 500205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1323976842 865141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because RNG Reporter is a .NET program < 1323976844 703011 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323976860 820477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for fourth gen catches, I use this: http://shaym.in/apps/iv_checker < 1323976863 472188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I wrote myself < 1323976889 355660 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean a resource explaining the systems < 1323976908 746711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah; Smogon has some guides, and there are various YouTube videos < 1323976922 274478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I find it best to understand how the game works, and then do the manipulation on that basis < 1323976929 781864 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323976942 480709 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence why I ask if you have resources explaining the mechanics < 1323976948 745913 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume doing RNG manipulation on real hardware would be near impossible? < 1323976950 577956 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the help information on the page I link explains how to use that page to do a flawless catch < 1323976958 967116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there would be various inputs that would be hard to control < 1323976961 762336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no? it's real hardware I do it on < 1323976974 191094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic point is that you only need to control one of the inputs, and just hold everything else consistent < 1323977007 782325 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? On something like a modern handheld system with wifi it would be trivial for the system to generate new random seeds every so often < 1323977021 230564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like /dev/random on linux does < 1323977025 30071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what if someone puts it on airplane mode? < 1323977038 971422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is exactly what I do for black/white RNG control, for exactly that reason) < 1323977046 172584 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, there are sure to be other sources of randomness. Clock drift between CPU cores? < 1323977062 27136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, indeed, but it only drifts between two values < 1323977067 634378 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1323977070 588237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just keep retrying until you hit the one you want < 1323977076 197661 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323977084 217247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nintendo probably don't spend thousands of dollars on preventing RNG abuse :P < 1323977098 471257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they do seem to have been given an order "make the RNG more complicated" < 1323977101 190793 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is < 1323977106 144966 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you don't exactly need to spend 1000s of dollars to do these kind of things < 1323977106 453540 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for trading, perhaps/ < 1323977107 220578 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1323977110 104680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wasn't so hard it wasn't cracked < 1323977115 483095 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway aren't there any good, hard to predict RNGs? < 1323977117 349761 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes you do, you need to employ someone who could think of them < 1323977125 710384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: probably by tPCI, who don't really like RNG abuse in official tournaments but haven't found any way to ban it < 1323977131 473932 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and then implement them < 1323977149 940888 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, there are often reference implementations available for many < 1323977150 191407 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, I assumed tournaments gave you predetermined pokemans < 1323977155 559136 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess kids wouldn't like that < 1323977160 946142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, that'd defeat the whole point < 1323977163 464495 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm talking about things like seeding with clock drift < 1323977169 93312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tournaments are basically just advertising < 1323977169 930061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1323977183 742933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the seeding with clock drift seems to be a mistake < 1323977187 905883 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1323977192 546832 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323977217 831950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in gen 4, it was seeded with the number of frames it took to dismiss the cutscene at the start of the game, which is a good entropy source (also the ones that players manipulated in practice, although it requires timing a keypress to 1/60 second) < 1323977219 923137 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323977220 476530 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: your page doesn't explain things like 1, J, K < 1323977228 630300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in gen 5, the check was at the start of the cutscene < 1323977238 451291 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes it does, "which RNG method should I choose?" < 1323977243 360006 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323977244 743116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it isn't really hard to do. Read the TSC (for x86 that is, I assume there are/could be similar things for, say, ARM) on the two CPUs several times and use the differences to generate randomness < 1323977261 967133 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why don't they just re-seed it, I don < 1323977265 104051 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* get it < 1323977276 216378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: from what? < 1323977283 278858 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you realise that programmers at Nintendo are probably paid enough to make a few thousand in not all that long a time, right? < 1323977307 804087 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :making the RNG seeding perfect probably comes considerably lower than "making a decent game" < 1323977311 79558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: besides, if the reseed interval wasn't /very/ fast, people would just do the catch before the first reseed < 1323977329 640765 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, every few seconds sounds reasonable to me < 1323977334 173545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :too slow < 1323977334 349676 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323977339 222342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, really? heh < 1323977348 786183 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it still doesn't really explain how they work though < 1323977356 785679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I would typically cause the stat generation to happen in the first second or so of poweron < 1323977361 50264 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, if wifi is on, that is an obvious source. Also couldn't you passively listen to radio noise even in airplane mode? I thought the point of the airplane mode was to not /emit/ anything? < 1323977373 462902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not the way that the DS's antenna works, I think < 1323977379 820668 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1323977383 110534 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would use power, wouldn't it < 1323977392 466845 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well yes, but you can't have everything < 1323977399 187131 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: better rng <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< decreasing battery life < 1323977402 99319 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1323977404 261442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323977404 992343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it might be simplest if you just ask me, I don't think there are any good explanations around about what's actually going on that aren't terribly technical < 1323977405 549020 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip one of those < 1323977406 635238 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1323977413 481877 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could require wifi on in tournaments < 1323977422 532093 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i believe that is what he was doing. < 1323977427 835152 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: umm, what? < 1323977428 11437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: we're talking about catching Pokémon before the tournament < 1323977428 670193 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would solve it for that use case at least < 1323977429 589114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is done at home < 1323977433 427933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh I see < 1323977443 246277 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then what prevents you from doing memory hacking? < 1323977450 241690 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1323977459 547796 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm fine with terribly technical < 1323977459 903271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they try to detect that < 1323977462 931679 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, that's preferred < 1323977481 163889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't as good at detecting that as the people who do the RNG manipulation are, though < 1323977483 661727 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hard if you just modify the stats to the best plausible levels from rng trickery? < 1323977496 148164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what if the stats are valid, but couldn't be generated by the game's RNG? < 1323977508 398484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the RNG can't return every possible sequence of numbers, after all < 1323977522 751947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it can in Black/White, incidentally, by using two RNGs that go through seeds at different rates) < 1323977530 672696 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323977544 408764 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to ensure that it would be possible with the RNG < 1323977551 608740 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway how can you time it right? < 1323977574 349096 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gamers are freaks. < 1323977574 526366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: for 4th gen, this forum thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52180 < 1323977581 237665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ther's another thread in the same forum for 5th gen < 1323977608 948410 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I checked, the difference between the human speedrun and the TAS run of Super Mario Bros. was a few seconds. < 1323977616 403731 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean if you use the current time in clock cycles or even in microseconds as part of the randomness when the value is requested you couldn't do it feasibly on non-modified hardware < 1323977628 487671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: on average, how many tries do you think it takes someone who's been practicing for 10 hours to time a keypress to within 1/60th of a second, using any tools (metronomes, countdowns, etc) they want? < 1323977646 334156 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 1/60th? really? < 1323977647 74252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the buttons on the DS are only read once per frame < 1323977650 317096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1323977654 820656 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is an issue < 1323977658 771785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the timing won't be any more accurate than that < 1323977663 82617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would have assumed they gave interrupts < 1323977670 898700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? that's incredibly rare in games < 1323977675 496315 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1323977678 916620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why would you expect consoles to support it? < 1323977686 580578 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I wasn't aware it was rare in games < 1323977688 828521 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it rare? < 1323977706 566211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, most PC games engine use a simple interrupt handler that makes it look like polling < 1323977713 942342 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323977726 911294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically because most games have a physics engine that can only process input once a frame; the rest of the time, it's busy calculating motion on that frame < 1323977730 446689 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's much easier to do a while(1) {check_buttons(); update_state(); render();} loop than do interrupts. < 1323977741 890777 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm is the PC keyboard polled or interrupting? I would assume at least the USB case is interrupting < 1323977748 258996 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about the PS/2 case < 1323977757 3662 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Interrupts. < 1323977757 273029 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, to the OS level < 1323977758 509072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's interrupting, but the BIOS can make it look like polled < 1323977762 255593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323977779 479265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's up to the OS whether it looks at the BIOS or whether it overrides the interrupt table to get the interrupts directly < 1323977798 283020 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, most modern OS tries to avoid using the BIOS < 1323977818 433865 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also using the BIOS presents some major problems from long mode iirc < 1323977837 794843 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, usually an OS just handles the interrupt itself. < 1323977846 373631 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind long mode, you can't use the BIOS in protected mode < 1323977866 375676 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh okay, I thought you could do virtual 8086 mode then or something < 1323977872 956977 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it was called < 1323977879 846047 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, maybe < 1323977882 65269 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual 286 mode? < 1323977884 248225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :something anyway < 1323977889 65598 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds more painful than rewriting the bios routines though < 1323977893 199404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1323977918 842475 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual 8086 it is called < 1323977922 563051 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc dosemu uses it < 1323977930 173 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't work in long mode of course < 1323977952 186443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: one of the few things in the "deliberately unsupported because I can't figure out wtf effect it would have" list in Web of Lies < 1323977978 32286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what are the other things on that list? < 1323977984 570090 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Web o' Flies < 1323977988 367018 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, no < 1323977997 181500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm trying to remember, now < 1323978001 210948 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1323978040 209316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ptrace is probably the biggest one < 1323978045 557042 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1323978051 770997 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anything else? < 1323978056 190182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, modify_ldt, personality, lookup_dcookie, and unshare < 1323978057 606276 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323978073 590935 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never heard of those < 1323978089 416211 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323978098 610865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I found personality was actually being used < 1323978115 506952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's only unsupported with certain arguments (which it silently replaces with different similar arguments in the hope that the system will still work) < 1323978145 56537 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323978145 726896 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, after reading man page I'm surprised the first one even exists in user space. Wtf. And there is no EPERM or such in the ERRORS section either. What. < 1323978204 625106 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323978273 331791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I assume wol uses personality though? < 1323978284 173157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1323978284 967657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, stuff like ADDR_NO_RANDOMIZE looks like cut out for it < 1323978288 695436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to turn off ASLR < 1323978292 615821 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323978304 294979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what it does in other process's calls to personality is to add ADDR_NO_RANDOMIZE to the argument list < 1323978306 728833 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: ptrace is probably the biggest one < 1323978307 306897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether they specified it or not < 1323978313 274992 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but how will you calculate weboflies' eigenratio? < 1323978315 799894 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1323978322 538710 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, :P < 1323978325 903283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think I've even tried running it inside itself < 1323978345 607198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it causes valgrind to internal-error (I think even with valgrind on the outside) < 1323978345 823144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:20:22: you-plural <-- i hear the technical term is "all y'all". hth. < 1323978350 293111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is resaonably impressive < 1323978352 109805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reasonably < 1323978360 690855 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, modify_ldt must be root-only, surely < 1323978370 857476 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :valgrind in wol in valgrind? < 1323978386 177981 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes that was my reaction too. Then I looked at "errors" and I was even more wtf < 1323978398 768529 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably just omitted < 1323978401 886515 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-27.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: left < 1323978404 509284 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully < 1323978404 799934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the LDT /is/ per-process… < 1323978420 238030 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : unsigned int read_exec_only:1; < 1323978420 431832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1323978426 73662 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it /must/ be unsafe to let you modify that, surely < 1323978429 221899 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : unsigned long base_addr; < 1323978429 398277 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : unsigned int limit; < 1323978430 682921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially these < 1323978432 714891 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323978437 50513 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so < 1323978440 421962 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly unsafe < 1323978445 526832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it only permit valid values < 1323978460 116273 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, look at the EFAULT description < 1323978480 628756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's if you specify the argument to modify_ldt as outside your own address space < 1323978488 978511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFAULT is what you get when passing NULL pointers to the kernel, or whatever < 1323978489 345564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right < 1323978515 114164 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actual thing I have thought: "this thing just isn't fast enough, I wish it used exec() directly rather than the shell" < 1323978531 578172 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : EFAULT is what you get when passing NULL pointers to the kernel, or whatever < 1323978536 537392 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there have been kernel bugs caused by failing to check this, btw < 1323978542 885585 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what type of bug doesn't apply to @? < 1323978548 413931 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway modify_ldt looks to me as if it belongs in the same category as ioperm and such. That is the category of "oh god, who thought exposing this to the user space was a good idea" < 1323978587 902304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh, I have to keep remembering to check EFAULT in weboflies < 1323978597 871306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'm simulating a syscall myself < 1323978601 931320 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323978654 202549 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is Web o' Flies totally non-secret now? < 1323978661 522801 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is the code still a jealously-guarded secret? < 1323978679 527060 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe I have a copy of it somewhere. Couldn't tell where though < 1323978684 416554 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :never ran it, it scared me too much < 1323978692 755898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still secret < 1323978697 154084 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a copy too, I didn't bother to get it to compile. < 1323978697 330300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this channel knows of its existence < 1323978700 596499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the source code is available on request < 1323978703 93936 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, come on. < 1323978708 918554 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Tomorrow they remove the letter "m" from the alphabet <-- and in 9-10 days, they'll remove "l". < 1323978711 424704 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it required root (for obvious reasons) and there was NO way I was going to run that sort of crazy stuff as root :P < 1323978716 375787 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I write two lines of source code to do something nobody else has ever wanted to do, I release the source. < 1323978716 552255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, it compiles fine, but on most people's kernels fails with EPERM for reasons most people don't understand < 1323978717 209481 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it needs to be secret otherwise the effort is wasted < 1323978721 22478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it does nothing on x86-64 < 1323978730 361388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including me < 1323978737 874559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, that reminds me of an idea I had < 1323978744 906361 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but you can run 32-bit programs on x86-64 fine usually? < 1323978747 392798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of getting the control process to drop permissions entirely < 1323978750 13372 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you say that doesn't work here? < 1323978753 134888 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it fails < 1323978758 818521 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, where does it fail? < 1323978762 583763 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why? < 1323978762 821199 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it seems to be 64-bit kernels that it fails on < 1323978764 965017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it to suspend them, and then set itself back to root where it fails < 1323978766 294024 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it fails on my x86-64 arch < 1323978768 803770 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and works in a 32-bit arch vm < 1323978771 903397 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /proc permissions < 1323978778 822017 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "huh" < 1323978786 177864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is bizarre < 1323978787 520197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yep, the permissions of /proc seem to be not what we'd expect them to be < 1323978798 273866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would they differ between architectures!? < 1323978798 699456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, whenever I attempt to debug the problem, it starts working < 1323978804 834039 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha < 1323978812 983498 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, it just wants some attention < 1323978814 694873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I recommend using a 32-bit VM and solve all your problems that way < 1323978822 258626 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wonder if it works in qemu-system < 1323978828 210673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both the "crazy code as root" problem, and the "confuses 64-bit kernels" problem < 1323978838 672293 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : why would they differ between architectures!? < 1323978846 589985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, /proc/ needs architecture-specific info... < 1323978853 62146 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh right < 1323978863 649594 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/permissions/ changing is weird, admittedly < 1323978869 47936 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323978882 328439 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure if there was an extra file or a file was missing. < 1323978891 440823 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what was the permission difference though? < 1323978904 483170 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: /proc//fd failed to stop being owned by root on weboflies' complicated permissions drop < 1323978908 560108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: something was owned by root that should have been owned by woluser < 1323978923 980431 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1323978937 145862 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *nobody :) < 1323978945 69662 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a quick check of /proc/self/fd indicates it is owned by the user in the normal case. < 1323978951 688596 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no shit < 1323978959 333752 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does wol depend on that permission being like that? < 1323978961 666696 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so why? < 1323978971 799750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because it's trying to read its own procfiles < 1323978974 172667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and failing because it isn't root < 1323978975 632958 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323979002 85561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the process was started as nonroot, by a process that wasn't root (but had been root at some point in the past) < 1323979007 637890 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds like this might be a kernel bug in either 32-bit or 64-bit < 1323979019 805250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normally, if you drop permissions and then fork a process, the resulting process can read its procfiles < 1323979021 925295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, /me tests < 1323979026 676454 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :64-bit if anything, definitely < 1323979028 940618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, me testing is pointless, I don't see the bug < 1323979063 81849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: on your computer, try starting a root shell, then using su to start a shell as a regular user, then checking the /proc/self's permissions < 1323979074 741780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it happen on a trivial test case? As in, doing the basic uid changing and forking and such but not all the other crazy stuff that wol does? < 1323979077 509726 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sudo -s is root shell enough, yes? < 1323979088 159243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1323979095 176076 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was /fd, btw < 1323979097 814662 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just /proc/self < 1323979106 13200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, indeed < 1323979110 246418 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that won't work, su forks a shell < 1323979117 197983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, rather, su execs a shell < 1323979118 511758 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is forked itself < 1323979124 76813 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323979141 774484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the situation in wol is fork, drop permissions, exec < 1323979147 741454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what su is doing? < 1323979156 959999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, it probably doesn't need the fork < 1323979162 40707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see how it'd matter < 1323979178 593317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[root@dinky esoteric]# ls -ld /proc/self/fd < 1323979178 769829 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dr-x------ 2 root root 0 Dec 15 19:58 /proc/self/fd < 1323979178 770006 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[root@dinky esoteric]# su elliott < 1323979178 770116 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[elliott@dinky esoteric]$ ls -ld /proc/self/fd < 1323979178 770225 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dr-x------ 2 elliott users 0 Dec 15 19:58 /proc/self/fd < 1323979209 483979 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ su - arvid /bin/ls /proc/self/fd < 1323979209 659927 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/ls: /bin/ls: cannot execute binary file < 1323979210 239040 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1323979226 339633 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am I missing here < 1323979236 556197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain /bin/ls works fine < 1323979247 932744 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, where's PH? < 1323979254 399082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1323979259 809209 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not how su works, that's how sudo works. < 1323979265 499546 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, pinged out half an hour ago < 1323979269 319275 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :su - whatever -c 'command' < 1323979275 861350 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 over 4, anyway :( < 1323979279 373412 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I thought that was sudo < 1323979281 603786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1323979295 221035 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ sudo ls # Vorpal thinks this doesn't work < 1323979312 438973 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Arguments to su are arguments to the shell. e.g. bash /bin/ls < 1323979360 103405 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1323979421 176486 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway an obvious way to generate randomness on a DS would be the ways you can generate randomness in wol < 1323979436 302500 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :busy looping < 1323979447 49686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: busy looping doesn't create randomness in WOL < 1323979449 360377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just crashes it < 1323979460 630463 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: a DS is already busylooping the /game loop/ < 1323979466 313880 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm good point < 1323979487 130656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway, that trick only works with a preemptive scheduler < 1323979493 431647 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I doubt the DS uses < 1323979501 285494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do it on the other CPU, you're just measuring clock drift again < 1323979524 334471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so add a hardware clock alarm and check the instruction pointer when you get the interrupt. < 1323979530 369268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if DS has that sort of alarms < 1323979532 930599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know PCs do < 1323979569 942221 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so, interrupt the game loop more often than every 1/60 seconds? < 1323979575 65458 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds smart < 1323979597 60893 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well on a PC it kind of would be hard to tell due to PCs being so fast. I guess it would be an issue on a DS though < 1323979615 576462 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the point is that you're saying "please interrupt the machine more than once per frame" < 1323979631 730864 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and spend CPU time reseeding the RNG with it" < 1323979674 242094 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, interrupts on button presses would work though. Because that way you would only get those extra interrupts when the user is performing the action in question < 1323979691 428387 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on the DS sure, but for future platforms < 1323979693 265206 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: which is again defeated by the user timing their button press... < 1323979708 961862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you can only time up to a certain accuracy < 1323979735 333220 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: how accurate are you asking the clock to be, exactly? < 1323979738 204957 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if this would help or not would depend on how accurately you measure the time of the interrupt < 1323979750 78490 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323979756 330956 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway, even if you can't time it to that < 1323979757 822174 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just keep trying < 1323979759 585802 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't know how accurate DS clocks are, but PC clocks can easily get down to microseconds < 1323979762 933497 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the clock is limited precision < 1323979766 315657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : just keep trying <-- well yes < 1323979769 111348 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a limited number of bits of noise you can look at the lower end from < 1323979777 315276 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just spend hours tapping the button every 1/n seconds < 1323979790 437188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: for what it's worth, Pokémon Red/Blue are famously impossible to manipulate < 1323979797 844545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they care about every single keystrok < 1323979800 136702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*keystroke < 1323979805 432621 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: certainly, that sounds plausible < 1323979805 608606 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is like pudding farming then :P < 1323979809 863985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, they're apparently annoying to manipulate even in TASes < 1323979810 760178 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think Vorpal's ideas for doing it are ridiculous < 1323979823 711389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some details of the way it works < 1323979840 874303 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: for what it's worth, Pokémon Red/Blue are famously impossible to manipulate < 1323979842 861243 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so why haven't nintendo just doing it that way again? < 1323979851 797252 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that make them *impossible* to manipulate. < 1323979852 546219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't* < 1323979867 184845 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well, not actually impossible, but beyond anyone's ability < 1323979889 833479 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : i wonder what properties of hexham inspire esolang <-- my guess is "intense boredom". < 1323979903 510968 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you live in /Trondheim/ < 1323979937 181565 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and he is doing esolangs < 1323979945 995812 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fits it < 1323979949 298621 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so he can't diss hexham! < 1323979977 695707 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how boredom happens < 1323979982 151418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't think he was dissing it. Just trying to explain the reason for the observed data < 1323980000 898619 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I'm convinced it is generated by buses < 1323980004 875642 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you didn't realise /that/ was a joke? < 1323980011 270915 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on, stop being hopeless < 1323980013 491197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I didn't take it as one < 1323980037 435303 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, or perhaps more accurately by bus stops < 1323980047 892925 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, the reason is that the only time I ever get really bored is while waiting for buses. < 1323980054 368743 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323980059 833162 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres this effect whereby the grass is greener on the other side of the fence < 1323980066 280866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably the same would apply to trains, but I rarely travel by them. < 1323980072 535904 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if it has a formal fallacy name < 1323980079 835625 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll check < 1323980084 922408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, how is that related to bus stops? < 1323980094 436766 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll get to that < 1323980166 623185 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 173486/11446 < 1323980167 428616 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 15.156910711165473 < 1323980167 891057 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you don't know exactly when the bus will arrive. Except for the end station and some major interconnections the time it arrives and leaves at may vary with a few minutes. As in, it won't wait if it is a minute or two too early. < 1323980197 115547 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to go to the bus stop like 5 minutes in advance, and then the bus may end up 5 minutes too late as well < 1323980199 380335 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: trondheim is rather larger. < 1323980201 358954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have nothing to do < 1323980208 799326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus boredom < 1323980212 453014 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, ^ < 1323980244 367647 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the busy metropolis of Trondheim? < 1323980259 771391 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a side note, someone in a distant chatroom suggested to me that finland is very depressing and a bit of a gulag < 1323980277 816523 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, "distant chatroom"? How do you measure distance between IRC channels? < 1323980289 543584 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said it was irc < 1323980300 112822 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric : on a side note, [...] finland is very depressing and a bit of a gulag | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1323980301 605238 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a bit like measuring uhh.. erdos number < 1323980304 880268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, even so, how do you measure distance between two online resources < 1323980307 614332 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1323980338 763368 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the distance to kevin spacey < 1323980370 747507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway they are connected by you, means it can't be that distance from this channel < 1323980375 556842 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the person in question is a troll who insists on finding fault with every country and religion < 1323980409 822822 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: turns out my kyurem is modest with 10 IV in SpA, 31 in HP, and 13 in Speed < 1323980415 405259 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well there usually /are/ faults in most things. You just have to compare the upsides to the downsides. < 1323980442 457526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what did you calculate that based on? < 1323980450 480363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, err, modest with 10 SpA? that's not really ideal < 1323980466 817706 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just plugged it into a calculator < 1323980471 988077 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, it isn't, but it could be worse < 1323980481 442455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it could have been Adamant < 1323980504 224492 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who i have seen him harshly criticize includes: gandhi, dalai lama, des cartes, alan turing < 1323980533 943390 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually i got around to ignoring the guy, even if he does make curious points < 1323980599 990291 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did gandhi not support hitler or sth < 1323980621 144400 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "des cartes"? < 1323980653 739996 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Missing those IVs is roughly equivalent to having a neutral nature and perfect IVs < 1323980659 985405 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION names his Starcraft II account "duh cart"
< 1323980661 1360 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :des cartes, the famous german philosopher < 1323980677 578262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: exactly, so you have all the speed loss of Modest /and/ all the special attack loss of Timid? < 1323980679 982677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's not to like? < 1323980686 209518 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1323980701 729392 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously I watch sc2 games like every day. < 1323980704 8236 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, speed loss of modest? what? < 1323980714 278766 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. cartesian duality was his main gripe there < 1323980717 96850 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, obviously he meant desc artes, a from of pop art. < 1323980718 746657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: modest isn't +speed < 1323980725 976803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, your speed isn't as high as it could be < 1323980726 153283 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, I see what you mean < 1323980728 280355 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a from of pop art < 1323980732 8928 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323980746 147179 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, form* < 1323980748 857282 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but right < 1323980752 662755 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i love finland :-s < 1323980761 520250 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though i don't know anything about it < 1323980761 696803 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never been to finland. < 1323980768 311994 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it involves making speling erorrs < 1323980774 828712 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never left australia < 1323980791 524928 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was simply triyng to get into the mood < 1323980796 492097 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: you're australian? < 1323980799 254795 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW. < 1323980802 260060 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1323980834 511416 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway what was that about bus stops and grass being greener on the other side? < 1323980849 6233 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, you never got around to explaining it < 1323980853 80609 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im looking for a wiki page about the grass being greener phenomenon < 1323980880 148037 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, but how is it related to being bored due to waiting for something and having nothing to do to pass the time? < 1323980935 933721 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll get around to that eventually < 1323980944 259126 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely there is a name for this damn phenomenon < 1323980953 795858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm extremely seldom bored unless I'm in such a situation. I generally find something to do even if I have nothing that I need to do. < 1323980964 982792 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The grass is always greener on the other side" suggests an alternate state of affairs will always seem preferable to one's own. < 1323981004 372240 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well right. Often involves jealousy of the the neighbour's lawn? < 1323981008 74202 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1323981028 41845 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. but i suspect it is a natural psychological illusion < 1323981033 977840 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno the right word here < 1323981058 366140 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well I never noticed that sort of thing wrt actual lawns) < 1323981069 432804 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not an optical illusion of course < 1323981079 973834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course < 1323981083 507509 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some level of metaphorical abstraction < 1323981084 809471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be weird if it was < 1323981124 548969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, anyway, yes the bus arriving is a better state of the world than the bus not arriving yet. Especially if it is very cold. < 1323981137 766491 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like -15°C < 1323981140 746653 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. its like saying on some given street, home X is more of a mess inside than home X-1 and also home X is more of a mess inside than home X+1 < 1323981162 648080 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1323981167 771455 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1323981197 188694 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never noticed that really either. < 1323981201 283988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1323981201 925344 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1323981209 738926 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe your house isn't a pigsty like mine < 1323981214 481588 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1323981233 842199 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really. Sure there are a few unruly heaps of papers on my desk, and such < 1323981242 517666 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the occupants of your household don't generate waste and expect someone else to clean it < 1323981270 333564 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if such people could not get by day to day without paid workers < 1323981273 357225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, but apart from that I tend to keep it clean. Having it dusty is annoying. And potentially dangerous during the spring due to my pollen allergies < 1323981304 749092 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly birch) < 1323981315 701426 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what people don't realize is that social systems can break down as readily as mathematical systems < 1323981330 140903 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like suppose i was to remove a single term of my choosing from a haskell program < 1323981349 538740 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could quite possibly have a cascading damage of the meaning of the program, right? < 1323981380 409676 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you even know haskell < 1323981381 614610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably would give you something like "Not in scope: x'" < 1323981386 248911 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323981406 313420 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i wont use haskell in my analogy < 1323981408 716685 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the most likely scenario is failure to compile. < 1323981412 109835 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually it would quote x' I think) < 1323981413 930225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, indeed < 1323981426 331039 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can probably construct programs that would still compile, but would mean something else < 1323981430 684436 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: do you mean definition or subexpression < 1323981435 974623 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know < 1323981436 715937 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i doubt it < 1323981443 692014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't shadow module functions in haskell < 1323981448 359425 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :without being explicit about it < 1323981450 308124 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess its not clear the bizzare idea i am driving at < 1323981453 883364 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can a definition in a where clause shadow a definition in the main part of the file? < 1323981482 229008 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes < 1323981483 402966 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1323981486 267250 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok suppose i was to make a pinhole in a gas pipeline < 1323981502 395155 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if you just remove a subexpression then yes. like x' = x + y transformed into x' = x < 1323981512 622006 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :over time the gas would leak and leak until the whole house is a bomb waiting to go off < 1323981525 888949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah lag spikes < 1323981535 856593 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's not removing a subexpression < 1323981545 880301 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well okay < 1323981557 663787 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is literally removing a term though < 1323981560 691287 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x' = f x turned into x' = x removes a subexpression, doesn't it? < 1323981567 255084 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, y there is a mathematical term < 1323981568 473809 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's not < 1323981571 526443 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's removing a term and an operator < 1323981575 962760 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1323981579 431188 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh < 1323981582 632353 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, f is a subexpression, right? < 1323981586 433020 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit heres what im trying to say < 1323981602 962533 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, it's important to odorize the gas so that people will notice if there's a leak? < 1323981611 271475 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a highly stable system is probably more vulnerable to change < 1323981614 384859 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that more kids don't die? < 1323981625 602930 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, ... no? < 1323981639 818839 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm this is gonna take a while :-D < 1323981643 186473 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: that's the opposite of the definition of highly stable < 1323981648 347482 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1323981655 555575 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion < 1323981668 890249 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what people don't realize is that social systems can break down as readily as mathematical systems < 1323981670 765340 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nnnnno. < 1323981683 788568 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A highly inter-dependent system is unlikely to be highly stable? < 1323981688 450937 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that what itidus21 wants to say? < 1323981688 712953 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, if you're talking about the kind of precisely engineered formal systems usually used. < 1323981704 718353 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think that itidus21 lives in some horrible mirror universe. < 1323981723 507946 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are not all living systems highly inter-dependant? < 1323981726 455123 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i think that itidus21 wants to make a profound observation. < 1323981734 23677 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Social systems are pretty redundant, and the complexity of the individual units gives them a lot of flexibility. < 1323981740 520969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I further think he is not managing to do so very well so far < 1323981749 278147 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i was not implying otherwise. < 1323981756 906527 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, okay < 1323981767 30909 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats easy to say unless you are one of the mortalities in the exceptions < 1323981773 503849 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The death of almost any individual can be recovered from with effectively no difficulty. < 1323981786 445262 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in Dictatorships < 1323981787 239237 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except from the point of view of that individual :D < 1323981794 375779 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that individual cannot recover < 1323981799 391483 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess that's the almost. < 1323981801 858683 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that doesn't count when looking at the whole system < 1323981802 853798 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we're talking about the entire society here. < 1323981841 896102 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok now we're getting closer to my mistakes < 1323981846 65981 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even in a dictatorship the death of the dictator can frequently be recovered from. < 1323981851 169373 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: itidus21 was referring to gradual collapse, I believe. < 1323981858 384080 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: But look at North Korea. < 1323981869 406441 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They survived the death of a dictator; it strengthened the dictatorship, even. < 1323981887 607830 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A poorly designed dictatorship, then. < 1323981892 429077 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323981898 557027 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1323981905 696141 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, any poorly designed anything might not account for the possibility of individual death < 1323981920 717760 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: itidus21 was talking about stable systems. < 1323981934 523373 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont quite know what i am talking about.. < 1323981939 143156 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im pretty insane < 1323981952 841137 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1323981956 401518 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSVO 'insane' equal to 'stupid'. < 1323981962 884071 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::0 < 1323981963 121173 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: finding a formal term for "the grass is greener on the other side" seems impossible < 1323981967 346912 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, a /definition/ of a stable system is one that doesn't radically change due to a "small" input. < 1323981970 149712 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I feel bad now.) < 1323981974 979448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as the death of a person < 1323981979 707605 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, just call it the envy fallacy. < 1323981980 806175 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and you should feel bad! < 1323981982 745852 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :north korea's dictator is dead? when did this happen? < 1323981990 793318 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: 1994 < 1323981992 725095 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the old one. < 1323981994 818585 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the father of the current one is dead, I think. < 1323982020 469041 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, of course a three-person system might very well fail from the death of one person, but then I would argue that is a huge input. After all 33.33....% percent of the persons in the system died. < 1323982030 589822 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) i am bad at communication. 2) i spawned 2 topics in my weird rant just now < 1323982044 505523 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... uhhh < 1323982051 619897 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i can still derive value! < 1323982052 629660 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in a 100-person system say? then 1 person is 1% of the population. Not likely to fail from that. < 1323982074 177508 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do i mean by grass is greener... lets see... < 1323982081 985421 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill explain carefully now why i even brought that up < 1323982091 54862 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, large inputs, such as a Gamma-Ray Burst, can destroy any social system < 1323982100 17040 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm istr something about things collapsing in france after king louis 14 because he had made all the decisions personally < 1323982111 785630 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm likely to disconnect. I'm moving cables. < 1323982114 491353 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was no one skilled enough to take over < 1323982130 229555 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that someone lives in a depressing home for some reason.. i dunno what reason.. it could be the people are assholes < 1323982143 429708 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Is this hypothetical Based On A True Story. < 1323982150 389924 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no.. < 1323982159 948026 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best hypotheticals are! < 1323982170 333659 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of... < 1323982175 583451 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. < 1323982178 710372 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all Assholes, sir! < 1323982185 981955 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok uhm < 1323982205 291916 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1323982215 124445 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : and there was no one skilled enough to take over <-- oerjan, that wasn't a stable system < 1323982216 510167 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1323982222 676552 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster NICK :Vorpal < 1323982229 403631 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i was in africa, while they have to worry about food and drink, i have to worry about assholes < 1323982236 120280 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is, Vorpal < 1323982242 752545 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that king louis 14 counts as a very large input < 1323982257 923531 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well okay < 1323982261 309678 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when faced with assholes everyday it is actually not that hard to imagine that the african food and drink would win in the cost-benefit < 1323982283 771302 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where this fallacy really breaks is that in africa a person is probably just as likely to meet more assholes < 1323982308 263419 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so living with assholes could be compounded with poor food and drink < 1323982346 94706 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ergo bus stops,. < 1323982365 373251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway I think the best example to explain what a stable and unstable system means to itidus21 would be a physical example. Take a plank. Make a hole in one end. Hang it on a horizontal rod. Now it is stable. Rotate it so it is balanced above the rod. Now it isn't stable < 1323982365 551685 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bus stops don't sound that bad < 1323982380 683534 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: So you don't actually have a bus stop-related point? < 1323982389 976711 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is so bad about busstops? < 1323982399 364896 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Well, the point is that Vorpal was talking about bus stops being boring. < 1323982400 563213 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how any harm can come to you on account of busstops < 1323982407 354119 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure poor food and drink would lead to boredom < 1323982407 534961 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you tried to relate it to the grass is always greener on the other side. < 1323982410 240215 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why /r/math has far more activity on "things which mathematicians do" than actual maths.
< 1323982411 266365 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoyance sure < 1323982413 136948 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont see how busstops can bore a person :D < 1323982414 170268 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not boredom < 1323982426 90532 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: what if assholes are gathered at the bus stop < 1323982430 902713 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, it does when you wait for a bus that is 3 minutes late < 1323982431 82195 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because most people aren't mathematicians? < 1323982435 963599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have nothing to do to pass the time < 1323982452 950526 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Of course, large inputs, such as a Gamma-Ray Burst, can destroy any social system < 1323982454 482162 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1323982466 539399 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those capitals are like a stab to the eye. < 1323982479 847923 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : probably more, actually, as good duelists would be able to get away with almost anything, so would be more litigious <-- istr this actually being a problem in medieval iceland < 1323982483 556991 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, that sort of situation, is really the only time I ever get bored < 1323982486 489616 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, Go Look At Some X-Rays. < 1323982488 985175 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that's a) wrong in this context and b) doesn't even explain the content. < 1323982489 337165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, otherwise I tend to find things to do < 1323982489 687590 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: so while one waits those 3 minutes, its as if one is being poisoned.. and it takes hours afterwards for that poison to dissipate? < 1323982495 831633 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Gamma-Ray Burst are Sgeo's favourite metal band! < 1323982501 367953 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, no? Where did I say that < 1323982509 154061 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noted for their social upheaval! < 1323982538 360608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (a) Do you really think most /r/math subscribers are mathematicians? (b) People who aren't mathematicians don't understand most mathematics. < 1323982551 360955 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm being way too literal about the busstop thing :-D < 1323982567 149484 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaphorical bus stops are the best bus stops, after all < 1323982568 167058 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, you just said " i wonder how boredom happens" < 1323982582 755800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my answer was "while waiting for public transport and having nothing to do to pass the time" < 1323982597 522085 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j,, < 1323982600 68084 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^hmm < 1323982600 583089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, to me that is basically the only times when I'm really bored < 1323982610 413994 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't live in hexham < 1323982614 481517 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1323982620 599595 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but I live in a pretty small town < 1323982635 694985 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are always books to read, or web pages to browse or stuff to code or whatever < 1323982646 890621 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :except when waiting for the bus < 1323982648 755301 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a lot of it was about growing up < 1323982655 716574 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: (a) Do you really think most /r/math subscribers are mathematicians? (b) People who aren't mathematicians don't understand most mathematics. < 1323982656 435092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with roaming duelists seeking out weak people to challenge < 1323982663 509295 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sounds like your town consists of only your house < 1323982669 66409 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : with roaming duelists seeking out weak people to challenge < 1323982670 563205 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dualists < 1323982675 453281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well, 20 000 inhabitants iirc. < 1323982686 830901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, still, meh. I'm an introvert. < 1323982689 399679 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's the plot to Des Cartes II: Des Harder. < 1323982708 34864 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sounds like a bad porn movie < 1323982717 871087 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best porn movie?? < 1323982722 118994 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : what i'm imagining is that if i was in finland i might find it easier to focus and concentrate for some reason < 1323982738 767573 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the grass is greener effect i actually specifically had in mind < 1323982743 965788 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't you putting des cartes before the horse??? < 1323982752 648418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : with roaming duelists seeking out weak people to challenge <-- wait, where was the *start* of that sentence? < 1323982763 376320 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: hi < 1323982775 570265 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is oerjan just a extremely slow typer? < 1323982777 763714 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :typist* < 1323982780 818138 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe?) < 1323982783 388932 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that social circles tend to replicate themselves in a persons life < 1323982789 932948 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i just had an afterthought < 1323982797 703661 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what was the context for it < 1323982802 108574 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first part is about a page above < 1323982804 783638 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its always the same kinds of people filling roles in each others lives < 1323982805 278147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is not on my screen < 1323982826 482192 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, sure, and? < 1323982827 333891 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that no matter where you go, that same social circle will form around you < 1323982827 510492 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : probably more, actually, as good duelists would be able to get away with almost anything, so would be more litigious <-- istr this actually being a problem in medieval iceland < 1323982840 584565 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't escape it simply by travelling :-D < 1323982851 821897 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, and why would you want to? < 1323982852 299530 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by crossing the fence :-s < 1323982853 851047 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I thought for a while you actually meant dualist, imagining that as being some category of mathematician < 1323982861 619874 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, off-topic still, but I think you should watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica. < 1323982864 510309 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1323982867 766632 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I like my friends and family < 1323982871 213414 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hi < 1323982872 177171 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323982886 554854 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :roaming around and challenging people's ideas < 1323982909 541535 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind) < 1323982918 946400 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: thats all you need in the world. you've won the game. < 1323982929 42565 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323982937 93112 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, oh also, I'm waiting for windows to boot atm, I'm not bored because of the slow disk making it take ages. I'm annoyed however. But meanwhile I'm chatting here on my laptop < 1323982942 679669 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however i have this theory that a person can't in the game so easily. < 1323982956 604997 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so something else must be eating away at you if your social life is in order < 1323982961 11657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1323982973 57935 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, that's probably what I was really thinking about < 1323982973 925210 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys, I'm about to suffer severe time dilation and being-ripped-apartness. < 1323982981 693726 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see you... on the other side... < 1323982984 600874 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, well there was that skeleton in the cellars (true story) < 1323982984 837732 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the VORTEX < 1323982985 109400 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::0 < 1323982993 827091 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Professional duelists used holmgangs as a form of legalized robbery; they could claim rights to land, women, or property, and then prove their claims in the duel at the expense of the legitimate owner. Many sagas describe berserks who abused holmgang in this way. In large part due to such practices, holmgangs were outlawed in Iceland in 1006, as a result of the duel between Gunnlaugr Ormstunga and Hrafn Önundarson,[2] and in Norway in 1014." < 1323982996 974425 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: vortex of fluidity? < 1323983000 218875 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, It was a bird skeleton. < 1323983001 646581 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: YES. < 1323983005 635984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1323983011 563323 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for "me" what "I" need is to like my family and friends < 1323983015 157229 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :vortices only make me think vortex based mathematics sorry < 1323983025 872944 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: im sucked in :( < 1323983027 228143 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluidly < 1323983031 602197 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1323983031 785564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1323983043 640632 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you'll be back < 1323983053 547037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: That's what they told me yesterday. < 1323983065 530239 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1323983114 30643 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it sounds like time to consult the i ching < 1323983123 87247 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: How can I do that from inside a vortex???? < 1323983125 814010 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no internet! < 1323983135 822140 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's not true. < 1323983142 35841 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it only connects me to this channel and one website. < 1323983143 92311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: tame the vortex, then use conflict to get it to engulf you anyway < 1323983145 203480 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry.. i have the book.. it doesn't matter if i don't exist < 1323983147 966948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the glitch is known as Crassworm's Hotel < 1323983159 330846 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That sounds unethical. < 1323983162 845883 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter that i don't know how to use it properly < 1323983184 178920 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323983186 445646 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, :D < 1323983192 23596 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323983199 659823 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have a random number generator in here? < 1323983200 505492 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is a glitch there? < 1323983209 324047 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: 7 < 1323983210 509620 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway what does that result in? getting no damage? < 1323983216 545048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take the ring of conflict off, yes < 1323983222 43368 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1323983222 380286 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, it's mostly only useful on Air < 1323983222 556565 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: no wait.. i need it to be in the 1 - 64 range < 1323983227 674689 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: 7 is < 1323983229 219736 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, useful yes < 1323983230 907429 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1323983242 529457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by the time you get there, vortices do such pitiful damage that you can heal up inside them even without using the glitch < 1323983257 10181 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ok a second number from 1 to 6 < 1323983277 717562 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: 7 < 1323983303 350188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print (int (rand 6) + 1) < 1323983304 188865 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 < 1323983305 589287 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :q < 1323983306 970210 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : do we have a random number generator in here? < 1323983309 292645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: there you go < 1323983310 741040 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 3d4 + 9d9 < 1323983310 926838 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d4 + 9d9 => 44 < 1323983314 416097 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a pair of numbers... the first being from 1 to 64 "7" .. the second number being 2 < 1323983323 758854 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1323983324 276175 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 to 64 "7"? < 1323983325 108319 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :7, 2 < 1323983333 294268 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i use 44 or 7? < 1323983338 309744 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 64 < 1323983345 791073 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 7 < 1323983347 160427 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :use q < 1323983347 732142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: does the number need to be /random/, or /arbitrary/? < 1323983352 401500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if random, I suggest you use an actual d64 < 1323983357 690492 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 1d64 < 1323983357 949918 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d64 => 6 < 1323983360 56912 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1323983362 834420 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: 6, 2 < 1323983370 92450 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1323983376 358644 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1323983377 417895 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 1d1 < 1323983377 599523 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d1 => 1 < 1323983378 508146 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 1d1 < 1323983378 705594 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d1 => 1 < 1323983379 893053 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323983400 986902 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : and by the time you get there, vortices do such pitiful damage that you can heal up inside them even without using the glitch <-- not if you go for low score? < 1323983416 522396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: teleport them away afterwards, I guess, still doesn't cost score < 1323983418 338628 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so just to make this clear for me.. the number in the range of 1 to 64 is 6, and the number in the range 1 to 6 is 2, right? < 1323983422 580675 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1323983425 419705 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: er < 1323983428 935691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if you're going minscore, you're going to be doing the planes with pets and/or a tooled horn < 1323983433 881057 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 1d64 < 1323983434 59962 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d64 => 61 < 1323983434 746905 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 1d6 < 1323983434 952215 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d6 => 2 < 1323983436 752486 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: there you go < 1323983437 692200 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes < 1323983441 975224 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: assuming those ranges are inclusive < 1323983448 359005 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup inclusive < 1323983462 112044 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so 61 and 2 < 1323983494 187334 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1323983503 337133 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you know what is true, you do not have to hide your own strength. You will earn the trust and admiration of others even though you have done nothing to seek it. < 1323983514 958673 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323983517 601810 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1323983529 234909 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323983529 805075 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1323983538 973095 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :use this to de-vortex < 1323983569 734463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think this random selection was fair overall, as there wouldn't have been a rethrow if the first numbers hadn't been ambiguous which were which < 1323983571 682115 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no elliott < 1323983601 427714 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a cheap shitty i ching book. i am not using it by any proper means < 1323983606 964665 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip elliott, killed by stack overflow 1995-2011 < 1323983609 641959 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the vortex shall consume us all < 1323983637 898913 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip us all, killed by stack overflow 1995-2011. < 1323983640 396485 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: sheesh, you could at least throw a coin per line :P < 1323983651 54235 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except monqy he's too young to be one of us < 1323983651 281915 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i threw out the coins in the rubbish < 1323983662 643004 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :during a weird phase i went through < 1323983668 507076 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy is 4 < 1323983669 824324 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yearso ld < 1323983695 152654 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: suffice to say the chinese would love PRNG if they had one back then < 1323983706 588682 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, what distinguishes yearso from other linkers? < 1323983708 396090 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : rip us all, killed by stack overflow 1995-2011. <-- I assume you mean the site? It tends to be quite terrible. < 1323983709 591778 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually im 6 or 2 but today i can make exception < 1323983712 612959 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: i'd be shocked, except i once threw away a die for an equally weird reason. < 1323983728 321323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would so call the linker I'm currently writing yearso if giving it a silly name were appropriate, but it isn't; at the moment, it's imaginatively named "linker") < 1323983753 358467 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason, humans throughout the millenia have invented all manner of natural PRNGs < 1323983769 831545 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do die count as PRNGs? < 1323983770 614539 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's fun < 1323983775 414961 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323983791 403242 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about really big coins < 1323983794 571263 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323983799 319003 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't flip it it's too big < 1323983803 326952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, they're imperfect RNGs, but aren't pseudorandom by any sensible definition < 1323983807 912176 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's debatable whether you can ever get rid of the P in our physical universe < 1323983818 485146 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am agreeing with oerjan < 1323983838 864820 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, if we ignore small-scale quantum randomness... < 1323983845 453942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a probably foolproof definition of "PRNG" is that it's possible to reseed it < 1323983847 934217 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which presumably does not have much of an impact on die. < 1323983851 117390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the physical universe can't be reseeded < 1323983854 149831 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if there _is_ any truth to divination, you probably cannot. < 1323983857 637127 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: hmm, what distinguishes yearso from other linkers? < 1323983860 444278 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know quantum mechanics < 1323983876 697003 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i don't have a sufficiently funny response to this, but i want to acknowledge it as a good question < 1323983876 874329 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: no, they're imperfect RNGs, but aren't pseudorandom by any sensible definition <-- if the state of the world in the area that can affect the die is taken as seed? < 1323983883 694236 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well ok if the pseudo means entirely predictable rather than imperfect. < 1323983884 539331 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and Yearso is a good name for a company < 1323983887 733833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1323983889 560844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: modulo the fact that it's unclear how to pronounce it < 1323983901 463276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious how to pronounce it apart from the s < 1323983904 894226 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is nature itself a PRNG? < 1323983916 83582 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: if anything it's a non-P RNG < 1323983925 297028 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's true randomness at the quantum level < 1323983939 661254 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :see e.g. HotBits, which generates true random numbers by monitoring radioactive decay < 1323983942 457408 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : rip us all, killed by stack overflow 1995-2011. <-- should i be scared? i also made my first SO comments just days ago. only 11 reputation so far, though. < 1323983960 395986 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or is there? (many-worlds etc) < 1323983964 265447 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: such talk is not conducive to escaping the vortex < 1323983971 746038 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you are mistaken < 1323983974 274373 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...escaping the vortex? < 1323984004 993015 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the interpretation doesn't matter, what matters is that the universe /we/ observe is truly random < 1323984011 328576 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the elliottonian vortex is related to the matrix of solidity < 1323984017 761042 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. even if many worlds is true, we're still /deciding/ random decisions with a true RNG < 1323984028 35709 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1323984035 251601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's true randomness at the quantum level <-- as far as we understand the universe currently at least < 1323984037 379873 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it could be that it's a PRNG with a seed with more bits than our universe < 1323984042 267703 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would be indistinguishable, I think < 1323984046 970540 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it could all be emulated < 1323984055 753109 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (a) I believe it is generally accepted, (b) that's the point. < 1323984059 158778 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or could it all be a function of our collective wills? < 1323984060 53755 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323984066 378793 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : the elliottonian vortex is related to the matrix of solidity < 1323984068 544338 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*vortex of liquidity < 1323984076 687096 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, ...what? < 1323984086 145374 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO!! I WAS AWARDED MY FIRST SILVER BADGE!!! < 1323984088 46188 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP YOU DEMONS < 1323984100 952514 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :determinism and non-determinism are part of the universe < 1323984102 107816 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::0 < 1323984104 278352 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to answer on SO once < 1323984110 234166 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just ignore them < 1323984114 863833 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't actually answer the question though, and my answer was deleted < 1323984123 47638 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good job < 1323984128 220810 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have made a comment on the question or something, I guess. < 1323984137 281722 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't so. should i? < 1323984145 647647 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it could be a PRNG is generating all the quantum randomness for an emulated universe < 1323984155 217482 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the sgeo story < 1323984157 647609 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things happen because you make them happen < 1323984166 290298 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not with an insufficient number of bits, I don't believe < 1323984175 654052 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am also open to the idea that things are deterministic < 1323984176 503548 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think it could be done by using some of the universal state /itself/ < 1323984182 134084 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., sufficiently far away state < 1323984184 390674 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't know exactly < 1323984185 867923 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as i am not forced to stick to that view < 1323984186 493591 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask oerjan :P < 1323984190 777071 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, err, does anything work with an insufficiant number of bits for the task at hand? < 1323984202 641277 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a dice doesn't roll itself.. a human rolls it because a human wants a random number < 1323984204 913649 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you are misinterpreting me < 1323984218 847827 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: there are theorems in complexity theory that say you can make a PRNG of one complexity class that cannot be distinguished from true random by one of a lower one. P and LOGSPACE being one example, iirc. < 1323984220 260289 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, unless the die is on the ground on a sufficiently windy day? < 1323984227 302307 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: by my very limited understanding of quantum mechanics, a "boring" PRNG is ruled out. < 1323984236 266320 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perhaps it counts as a hidden variable? dunno) < 1323984245 29565 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1323984246 410700 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well okay < 1323984257 39249 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :die only rolls because of something happening in humans thoughts like "make dice" "roll dice" < 1323984259 25811 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't know enough about quantum mechanics either < 1323984265 521785 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you may be right for all I know < 1323984267 200601 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: isn't that just The Secret < 1323984277 327957 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka one of the worst books of the millennium so far < 1323984285 535855 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the secret < 1323984294 115857 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book) < 1323984294 818949 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think he's either doing that or trying to get at a "What is a die" thingy? < 1323984303 852653 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr "believe you're healthy and YOU WILL BE HEALTHY IT'S MAGIC!" < 1323984306 605451 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"also rich! and famous!" < 1323984307 818070 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, OUR MINDS CONTROL REALITY OTHER THAN BY TRIVIAL WAYS < 1323984310 831418 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a cube of plastic or wood... < 1323984320 666579 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what's a true random sequence? not produced by an algorithm? < 1323984323 578259 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good buk < 1323984323 754284 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has ink on it < 1323984328 976823 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well of course they do < 1323984333 850381 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it controls your body, for one < 1323984341 742561 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that's what I meant by trivial. < 1323984348 762948 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to quote a person, "fsvo trivial" < 1323984371 118673 :NihilistDandy!~ND@stu-99-155-171-184.champlain.edu QUIT :Quit: http://haskell.org < 1323984378 772539 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem of the butterfly effect is that the impact of the butterflys wings is "uncontrolled" < 1323984388 392708 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-10 IN 2.5 < 1323984394 880534 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am undone :( < 1323984400 845322 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm? < 1323984403 231014 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1323984410 260979 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Vortex measurements. < 1323984426 605977 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the latest ones are available at http://tinyurl.com/dxuq5eo < 1323984476 12257 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry to all the mathematicians for my very unmathematical comments < 1323984480 850807 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, the butterfly effect is just about the system being chaotic < 1323984488 824642 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the butterfly has a mind < 1323984494 485019 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323984494 682856 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it flaps its wings with its mind < 1323984499 200849 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: he's got a point!! < 1323984501 577392 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but that is not what the butterfly effect is about < 1323984513 612264 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the term butterfly effect has a precise meaning < 1323984518 387078 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im... really... fucking annoying to argue with < 1323984529 563273 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1323984533 362053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: erm a sequence of independent, equally distributed elements; if it's infinite then with probability 1 it cannot be produced by an algorithm since those that can are countable... < 1323984534 980776 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaves falling don't have a mind. < 1323984542 490721 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, you just described people like elliott and me there < 1323984547 89339 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: it's not really an argument, it's more just everyone else trying to explain to you < 1323984548 309418 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elevator malfunctions don't have a mind. < 1323984552 244603 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1323984555 211009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is that too < 1323984570 257730 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elevator Malfunction is Sgeo's second-favourite band. < 1323984594 668391 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone died in an elevator malfunction recently :( < 1323984618 65914 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not for us to unravel the secrets of the will, the will-not, conciousness, transcendance, determinism, non-determinism < 1323984621 973301 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so how do you run the algo, obviously no finite segment of it tells you anything about the distribution < 1323984624 567699 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Thousands of people just died in recently < 1323984634 955375 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Or do you only care about the elevator malfunction ones < 1323984640 451876 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's not for us to unravel the secrets of the will, the will-not, conciousness, transcendance, determinism, non-determinism <-- why not? < 1323984648 875410 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: because itidus21 doesn't know how to < 1323984649 126183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can always try < 1323984666 404406 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, elevator malfunction was just the most immediately accessible mindless cause that could be said to have a butterfly effect < 1323984675 942697 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I was responding to Someone died in an elevator malfunction recently :( < 1323984680 159391 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, to be fair, neither do I know exactly how to do do that completely. Won't stop me from giving it a try though < 1323984682 399910 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :smarter people than us have tried.. it ends up in teaching people the virtues of not stealing < 1323984691 355084 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1323984695 43276 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, car crashes are the most accessible horrible death to me for some reason, but they're mostly ... I think mindless would be the wrong word < 1323984712 593243 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I was explaining why elevator malfunction was so accessible to my mind < 1323984716 47577 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: More mindless than an elevator going wrong? < 1323984716 223773 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mindful. < 1323984724 856054 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do _i_ look like i've read the proof? < 1323984727 132925 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more notmindless < 1323984731 89110 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1323984732 734363 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Car crashes have thinking involved being responsible at the time of the accident. < 1323984746 838119 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elevator malfunctions are probably mostly due to unthought mistakes far in the past. < 1323984753 91544 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.Z < 1323984768 416503 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was thinking of elevator malfunction as more mindless < 1323984774 45320 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1323984785 42599 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say everyone should ride horses or horse-and-carts... for various good reasons.. except accelerating population leads to CBDs that everyone has to race to < 1323984798 795417 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Q.E.Z.? < 1323984802 196514 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the evolution of the home-office may well be the devolution of the car < 1323984802 787909 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. < 1323984810 181522 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't say Q.E.D. when oklopol's around. < 1323984810 365788 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, QED I know the meaning of < 1323984813 441822 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it be nice if noone needed an office anymore < 1323984813 850705 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, I'd say everyone should ride in computer-controlled cars. < 1323984819 232629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? So what does the Z stand for? < 1323984819 570734 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1323984827 720604 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why can't you say QED? < 1323984830 966416 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No more human drivers. < 1323984832 972938 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if people could re-distribute themselves across the world via the internet < 1323984837 299328 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Either zemonstrandum or zarathustra. < 1323984840 265790 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why drive when you can tele-commute < 1323984847 788430 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, problem: driving is fun. < 1323984855 519565 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, fuck fun. < 1323984857 554893 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : smarter people than us have tried.. it ends up in teaching people the virtues of not stealing <-- scientific progress means that it doesn't matter how smart the ancients were, they didn't have access to the _tools_ to solve the questions. < 1323984858 172203 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Cool, it'll be like public transport but less efficient. < 1323984864 573204 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck fun :D < 1323984869 201872 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And more expensive and polluting (fuck fun, right?). < 1323984876 575184 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, won't stop people from complaining loudly. < 1323984887 214344 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1323984914 956423 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, my comment about grass is greener very much applies to interplanetary travel < 1323984929 193117 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already know we'll fuck up every planet we visit if we visit them < 1323984934 210543 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how would it be like public transportation? < 1323984944 307133 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: Cool, it'll be like public transport but less efficient. <-- less boredom < 1323984956 599310 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: In that it's a massive investment and overhaul and people who drive currently won't like the idea of it? < 1323984964 324243 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, at least there is less waiting involved < 1323984966 936469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a good thing < 1323984980 918949 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Waiting is basically a function of how much money you put into the system... < 1323984983 326496 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, part of a reason to do interplanetary travel is if something happens to one planet, humanity goes on. < 1323984992 945444 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, for public transport? Hm. < 1323984994 866371 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Anyway, good trains are way faster than even auto-driven cars could go. < 1323985006 735242 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although sure, the psychology is different. < 1323985016 494579 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, they can't go everywhere that auto-driven cars can. < 1323985025 922471 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as into a driveway. < 1323985032 825398 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, certainly they are faster, but less convenient if you don't live near a train station. And yes the psychology is indeed different < 1323985035 380630 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" what i'm imagining is that if i was in finland i might find it easier to focus and concentrate for some reason" .. same thing we as a species imagine about interplanetarry travel < 1323985044 965830 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So fuck fun, but don't fuck a little bit of walking every now and then? < 1323985061 235194 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's also a function of money. :p < 1323985087 493202 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Anyway, the areas where public transport can't go are the areas where it would be much more difficult for auto-driven cars. < 1323985097 137266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, very few can afford having a train station built right next to your house :P < 1323985099 799254 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to less-defined/lower-quality roads, less mapping, etc. < 1323985122 53779 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's called public transport; the government is the one paying the money here. But yes, taxes would increase quite sharply if everyone got that. < 1323985133 375215 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1323985143 389779 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway trains are less reliable here in Sweden < 1323985146 775490 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actually, the primary barrier to public transportation at least *here* is a function of population density. < 1323985159 98232 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The train stations should rent out electric cars that run on tramline-type things that go to your doors. :p < 1323985164 657864 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You couldn't really keep a train station afloat here. < 1323985169 104362 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just put the coins in the slot, get in, get out, and it zips back. < 1323985169 743123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the lesson is that we as a snow-heavy land should NOT buy trains from countries that don't have much snow < 1323985181 719499 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, well, the solution is to live somewhere less terrible. < 1323985183 151204 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just end in tears < 1323985199 640230 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: TBH, for local transport I'd tend to prefer underground rail. < 1323985202 848761 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if people did away with skyscrapers and central business districts and did everything over the net, it would surely reduce traffic considerably < 1323985212 695864 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long-distance transport can have nice fast overworld lines. < 1323985215 54681 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: it wouldn't take much more to get self-driving cars common. < 1323985231 935220 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I am pretty sure most people would not buy self-driving cars unless they had no choice. < 1323985232 578656 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get internet connection as a tax write off < 1323985245 575641 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Especially/ anyone over the age of 35. < 1323985268 54579 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not cost effective outside bit towns < 1323985270 751993 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or cities even < 1323985278 565654 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I doubt there is a Hexham metro :P < 1323985280 929058 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The currently extant ones require mapping of the roads. < 1323985293 28917 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Do you want to bet on how much money goes into road construction and maintanence? < 1323985297 36514 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :big* < 1323985307 573176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, quite a bit. But tunnels are expensive < 1323985308 699159 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention the money accidents cost. < 1323985309 776416 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more so < 1323985313 210665 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Public healthcare and all that. < 1323985319 905923 :DCliche!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323985349 663574 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, do you seriously think people drive because they want to control the vehicle? < 1323985352 891154 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck no. < 1323985362 736599 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They drive because everything's too far to walk to. < 1323985371 390151 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1323985393 444438 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think itidus21 may have said this before, which makes me feel weird, but: Just _one_ accident with an auto-driven car, and we can say bye-bye to the dream, probably. < 1323985398 490709 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there are those who find driving fun. Why else would there be driving and racing games. < 1323985408 52511 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If you seriously think most people would be fine ceding driving control completely to a computer... then I really don't know what to say to you, but I invite you to go up to people on the street and ask them. < 1323985414 149215 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, but they're not a significant factor in adoption of automatic cars. < 1323985421 771809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1323985422 880135 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially literally anyone who sees driving as a competition. < 1323985481 480697 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-176-12-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323985567 509374 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You're talking about people who do shit like put on makeup while driving. < 1323985582 203114 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That... does not even remotely come close to being a rebuttal. < 1323985675 996195 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm saying is: given driving habits here, it's basically inevitable that people will have automatic cars and use them pretty much of the time, just so that they can do something during their half-hour commutes. < 1323985732 450372 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that they already risk their lives *dramatically* just to do that... < 1323985765 955723 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I wouldn't trust a computer to handle everything when driving. For large roads sure. But when parking on a uneven non-surfaced (I mean, grass) parking place out in the middle of the woods? < 1323985772 66135 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I done that < 1323985782 404315 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :when going to stuff like tourist attractions < 1323985784 946172 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`log automatic car < 1323985798 306425 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Fairly small case, though. < 1323985800 509729 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or during bad winter weather < 1323985806 633361 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, have I not previously expressed my scepticism that you still don't understand the pluperfect. < 1323985810 381809 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not in Sweden. We don't put asphalt everywhere. < 1323985813 432591 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2008-09-13.txt:21:08:08: "hygienic" macros which take automatic care of naming conflicts < 1323985821 424319 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1323985826 506297 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs automatic car < 1323985829 219533 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's still a fairly small case. I mean, how often do you park? < 1323985834 829267 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32433 < 1323985841 798123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, every time I drive into the garage? < 1323985846 676947 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. :P < 1323985853 630905 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2011-05-14.txt:00:42:11: The safety concerns of an automatic car need to be compared against human drivers. < 1323985861 866888 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I probably park several times per day < 1323985864 645029 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait, you want automatic cars /with manual override/ control? < 1323985865 989795 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's, what, 2 minutes of your drive? < 1323985868 818589 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hm perhaps what will happen is that cars get the ability to drive automatically or be controlled as you wish, and then gradually people will stop controlling their cars due to the convenience? < 1323985870 767328 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*override control/? < 1323985893 799047 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you discussed it 7 months ago apparently :) < 1323985894 991185 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It would be somewhat necessary, at least given some of the broken infrastructure around here. < 1323985905 173077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is like a more advanced cruise control < 1323985910 563320 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Great, so now people will override it whenever there is, e.g. a car in front of them! < 1323985914 912418 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm fine with < 1323985920 455935 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then expect the system to continue working correctly even though they massively wrecked the parameters for whatever reason. < 1323985931 615648 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's about ten times as hard to write the software and has absolutely no safety benefits. < 1323985936 847684 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET IN < 1323985991 19101 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: maybe anti-collision features could only be overruled at low speeds. < 1323986006 210590 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Says the man who hasn't seen a country where literally everybody drives. < 1323986006 721768 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway the problem is it takes a HUGE amount of work to handle every situation. And if it doesn't and lacks manual override, then it is worthless < 1323986018 759029 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I am sceptical that the systems are so "modular". < 1323986034 784229 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think a lot of it is essentially generated based on real-world driving data. < 1323986039 654182 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I think Google's was quite like that. < 1323986059 824312 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You realise a shit ton of driving goes on in the UK, right? < 1323986102 806914 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Anyway, I'm not sure how an anti-collision feature could still interact with manual driving. < 1323986108 862814 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You automatically swerve if you try and drive into a car? < 1323986124 691949 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds... easy to backfire. < 1323986173 452064 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ~90% of the population commutes via car? < 1323986194 696703 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Do you have sourcse for that statistic? < 1323986199 91014 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sceptical, just curious. < 1323986232 680624 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also, 90% of the population, or 90% of the working population? < 1323986241 637195 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://encrypted.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=commuting+in+the+US&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2Fprod%2F2011pubs%2Facs-15.pdf&ei=F23qTuSCLpPqgAeK2_CKCQ&usg=AFQjCNEdBXyfZTDYeUlAGmNhrO7KBiBFfw < 1323986251 677935 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMMIT GOOGLE < 1323986271 856477 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want the URL, not the "spew your shit on top of it" URL. < 1323986287 930065 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-15.pdf < 1323986314 210160 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Car is ~75% of commuters < 1323986319 889427 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In UK < 1323986320 283437 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's driving alone. < 1323986322 787334 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Citation: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/commuting-to-work/2011/commuting-to-work---2011.html < 1323986326 235271 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Right. < 1323986347 638190 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other highlights: "Workers took an average of 25 minutes to get to work". < 1323986410 284941 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the UK is small < 1323986436 895186 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :However if you don't think we have large, high-traffic roads with frequent jams and all that, you're crazy < 1323986455 281981 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just utilise road transport a bit less within cities < 1323986484 122652 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Especially London, but that's because road transport in London is basically impossible, from what I gather.) < 1323986485 821751 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :small? 25 minutes is like the whole day :o < 1323986488 118035 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323986508 966768 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it took me 25 minutes to go to work, i would not go to work < 1323986511 338244 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: That's one way. < 1323986527 166646 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i represent the majority as usual. < 1323986588 79132 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ~2% of the population in that study had a 90 minute commute. One way. < 1323986620 321153 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, that was a US figure? < 1323986627 348995 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like riding a bike through finland every day < 1323986653 978141 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Because UK figures are 1-15 min: 42%, 16-30 min: 33% < 1323986662 372752 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not like US commutes are significantly longer. < 1323986675 312848 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, that was a US figure. < 1323986697 205510 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can also expect to drive for anything else you do. < 1323986698 324129 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNS7AtliBFM < 1323986700 599330 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS RIVETING < 1323986701 785812 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, groceries. < 1323986715 979910 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, pikhq, our supermarkets, too, have carparks. < 1323986730 383424 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: Anyway, I'm not sure how an anti-collision feature could still interact with manual driving. <-- you still get unpredictable parameters, what if a suicidal pedestrian throws himself in front of a car, and the distance is too short to brake. < 1323986736 813289 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact is that for the US it's "everyone" and the UK it's "a lot of/most people". < 1323986741 138674 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I live well inside the second largest city in Scotland, and almost all of the groceries in this house are brought here by car. < 1323986750 116167 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like we're some utopia of everything being in walking distance and the rest being perfect public transport. < 1323986768 924496 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that would be like Monaco, (walking distance) < 1323986772 418548 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: Anyway, I'm not sure how an anti-collision feature could still interact with manual driving. <-- you still get unpredictable parameters, what if a suicidal pedestrian throws himself in front of a car, and the distance is too short to brake. < 1323986778 988942 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You think a human operator would do well there? < 1323986784 4490 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no < 1323986794 78888 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but I think an automatic car would do just as badly < 1323986801 613923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. So it doesn't matter. < 1323986807 285382 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're the same, so it's irrelevant. < 1323986823 444142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323986823 620773 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course more people would be upset if an automatic car did it.) < 1323986829 591065 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1323986847 565709 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Reboooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo*NO CARRIER < 1323986854 599558 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also, I doubt that's a fairly common method of suicide. < 1323986872 668010 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also what would an automatic car do if it was a question of "save pedestrian" vs "save people in car" < 1323986872 971799 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's a pavement, then it's probably in an area where a car banging into you would not be fast enough to kill you. < 1323986887 310310 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Reliably* kill you. < 1323986891 519426 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes. < 1323986898 784997 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I very much doubt an automatic car can reason about moral situations, dude. < 1323986911 611123 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, like a pedestrian in front, too short distance to brake, but you could still change your course. Except this is a cliff road and there is a deep drop to the side of the road... < 1323986943 495566 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, also what would an automatic car do if it was a question of "save pedestrian" vs "save people in car" < 1323986944 409947 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[...] the largest Asda Supercentre with a nett sales floor of over 120,000sqft." "Walmart Supercenters are hypermarkets [...] with an average of about 197,000 square feet." < 1323986947 585778 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do *people* do? < 1323986955 624283 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I imagine it would swerve; it's probably not very easy to detect drops like that, and obstacles are not that easy to distinguish from one another. < 1323986958 482559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, save themselves, if they have time to think about it < 1323986964 649887 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wow, that's a difference of a whole 50%! < 1323986966 264662 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Kill both :P < 1323986973 881196 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also comparing largest with average. < 1323986976 261539 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a human drive would NOT swerve in that case. < 1323986976 986160 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh shit, our supermarkets are smaller! < 1323986978 519091 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That so matters. < 1323986980 308758 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least probably not < 1323986981 981171 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Who cares? < 1323986986 774282 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :∎ < 1323987004 658871 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If humans are our benchmark for how a car should drive, we're gonna get really shitty self-driving cars. < 1323987010 297043 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also. < 1323987015 113447 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well if there are like 3 people in the car and one pedestrian, the automatic car would have taken a worse decision. < 1323987017 731686 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If this is a cliff road, where the fuck is the pedestrian coming from? < 1323987025 259114 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :∎ < 1323987035 554491 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, could be a suicidal one? < 1323987048 630850 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway that was just an example. You could construct other scenarios like that < 1323987049 488403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't think you understand how cliffs work? < 1323987061 280573 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover, save themselves, if they have time to think about it < 1323987069 824033 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also pigs would fly if they had time to think about it. < 1323987086 271162 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Do pigs live busy lives, usually? < 1323987096 49265 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well, they might swerve due to panic. Or they might be aware of the drop and not swerve < 1323987107 68979 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure most people would swerve. < 1323987117 69011 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might hit the brakes. < 1323987120 135682 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that. < 1323987121 324619 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that cars have brakes? < 1323987122 860463 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1323987136 402621 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, wait. < 1323987136 720405 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, anyway there is such a thing as braking distance < 1323987139 326636 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what the automatic car should do. < 1323987145 429693 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fly? < 1323987150 71927 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking fly too < 1323987156 238458 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should swerve, but then swerve even more, so that before it actually falls down, the air propels it back on to the road going the other way. < 1323987158 283249 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. motherfuckers. < 1323987159 929887 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Z. < 1323987166 951735 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But that would be good too. < 1323987167 765388 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323987177 740290 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd just swerve and everyone inside would go "NOOOOO" and then the wings would come out the side and it would fly off into the sunset. < 1323987187 627546 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1323987189 527005 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orchestra plays uplifting music, etc. < 1323987196 458784 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still waiting for my flying car < 1323987197 316900 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :credits roll < 1323987199 462411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1323987202 122087 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE END appears. < 1323987209 158891 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actors get lots of money, Oscars. < 1323987214 797575 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what uplifting music would be appropriate? < 1323987230 345200 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't know, you know the kind of music that always plays when things go well for once in a film and it's near the end. < 1323987235 332957 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's going to be impossible to get people to see the lives saved by auto-driven cars. < 1323987239 930144 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, benny hills theme < 1323987245 529360 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it is always appropriate < 1323987253 919228 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, not that one. < 1323987260 148804 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, are you sure? < 1323987261 329916 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1323987263 450397 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1323987263 832139 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like you can put in a paper "This person was almost in a crash, but thanks to being in a computer-controlled car, survived" < 1323987272 13675 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, aww < 1323987280 190927 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's funny because you think papers convince people? < 1323987282 931101 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, "This person was driving drunk. Nothing of consequence happened" < 1323987284 95582 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just slap something by Two Steps From Hell over it; that's what they're there for, after all. < 1323987288 543621 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, news media does. < 1323987295 565434 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :moral of the story drive drunk < 1323987306 495806 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, not driving < 1323987308 9155 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure what/who that/they is/are. < 1323987312 761315 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In the driver seat of a car" < 1323987326 986608 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nothing bad happened, because the car wasn't driven by the person, but rather, a computer." < 1323987336 267638 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :exciting < 1323987358 167757 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't news < 1323987365 349740 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, exactly my point < 1323987367 109357 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the age of twenty, Sgeo begins to suss out how the news works. < 1323987375 349098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, heh < 1323987380 8118 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I'm 22. < 1323987388 430709 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo is 22??????????????????? < 1323987392 979784 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1323987401 155567 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1323987403 170820 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1323987403 771070 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, it's amazing, and then you think about it and feel sad. < 1323987417 479116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought he was younger than me < 1323987418 221851 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Are you saying that news media actually causes people to change their strong preconceptions. < 1323987418 397954 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1323987420 724317 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because hahahaha. < 1323987430 148708 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Bow before your elder! < 1323987442 125976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm equally old < 1323987451 685919 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What month were you born. < 1323987456 551750 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if someone hears about accident X more often than they hear about accident Y, even if accident Y is more common, they're going to be scared of X < 1323987463 161442 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why? < 1323987464 647848 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo being older than Vorpal is somehow odder than him being older than me, elliott or monqy. < 1323987466 668219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay maybe he is older < 1323987471 534030 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Because what month was Vorpal born. < 1323987473 792593 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes < 1323987479 66138 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :May < 1323987480 931725 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the current month < 1323987482 289896 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1323987490 540301 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1323987492 463746 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except not this instance of it) < 1323987504 676048 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1989-12-01) < 1323987530 67707 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I thought he was like 20 or so < 1323987537 767104 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was 20 two years ago. < 1323987540 928980 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 is also old < 1323987545 849659 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, I meant about now < 1323987563 516072 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have trouble imagining sgeo not being a kid < 1323987569 260521 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :help :( < 1323987576 305671 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, um, how do you word a ping on a bug report this guy has been ignoring me for 6 days ;_; < 1323987577 241427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, aren't you a kid too? < 1323987578 625629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iird < 1323987580 4729 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still treated like a kid >:( < 1323987580 180872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc* < 1323987584 25702 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i'm a kid oops < 1323987586 528757 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's because you still act like a kid. < 1323987587 116059 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, what do you know, you're 15. < 1323987589 279127 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, that is because you act like one < 1323987591 1689 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, snap < 1323987594 716688 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Ping" < 1323987601 423698 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :snop < 1323987604 240428 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: THAT'S IMPOLITE!!! < 1323987607 100790 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: splinpers < 1323987627 668059 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-250-216.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323987636 653828 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a bit obnoxious maybe < 1323987669 250457 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-122.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1323987704 950077 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, my last comment was many paragraphs long and basically said "rather than minorly breaking API compatibility, fairly majorly break it and this works brilliantly" :P < 1323987723 262960 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although "fairly majorly" is relative, since the relevant consumers of this API are like 15 lines long maximum.) < 1323987747 736099 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok, you've moved the bug into the "wait for the perfect solution to become clear" state < 1323987754 26860 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :this state has no possible next state < 1323987756 234446 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I made it very clear. < 1323987760 962971 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got into that state and then I solved it the next day :P < 1323987807 332808 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Help how do I ping. < 1323987834 672750 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ping what? < 1323987852 486628 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway I believe it is net_adm:ping(atom_for_node_name) < 1323987853 685020 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1323987871 985464 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :;__; < 1323987876 992609 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ping https://github.com/basvandijk/monad-control/issues/4 in particular :P < 1323987886 438554 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you ask me about github? lol < 1323987891 898196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use github < 1323987894 543019 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"YOU DARE SPEAK TO ME OF GITHUB" < 1323987905 833922 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not it is just that it is pointless to ask me < 1323987907 173829 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I was in fact bothering everyone to tell me how to politely ping a bug report. < 1323987909 545155 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't use it < 1323987911 408382 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :GitHub is irrelevant :P < 1323987940 731072 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no matter how well you explained the issue it's not to you but to the maintainer it needs to be clear < 1323987941 433524 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "WHY ISNT THIS FIXED YET" is a favourite. Remember the caps and the missing ' < 1323987955 485339 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY ISN"T THIS FIXED YET < 1323987957 23899 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good too < 1323987957 535630 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously your solution is flawed because it wasn't his idea :) < 1323987962 529976 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Pah :P < 1323987965 508408 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn;t this fixed yet. a classic. < 1323988030 572639 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, also WHY ISN*T THIS FIXED YET < 1323988039 480991 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works better on Swedish keyboard < 1323988047 689599 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for me " is shift-2 < 1323988062 589656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/basvandijk/monad-control/issues/4#issuecomment-3170203 < 1323988063 762666 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS DONE < 1323988070 370803 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IM SO RUDE < 1323988192 447600 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1323988202 788344 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rude... < 1323988203 309814 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: undef in list context is () right? < 1323988218 106413 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: im < 1323988219 150024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: no, it's (undef) < 1323988219 593193 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rudest :( < 1323988224 124118 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: auuuuughweiurhwiuerh < 1323988225 456691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a list with one element, which is undefined < 1323988230 232008 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1323988233 970321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: if you're thinking of a function return value < 1323988234 146474 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1323988237 610440 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: have you considered you're doing it wrong if all these details matter to you < 1323988238 742685 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of undef < 1323988243 549303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then "return" will return () in list context or undef in scalar context < 1323988246 183594 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no. < 1323988261 899923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the most common reason that matters (a list with one element is true, scalar undef is false, and you might be trying to return a false value) < 1323988272 248248 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no I'm thinking of undef as returned by an error in a block eval. < 1323988292 318985 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. so I SEE THE PROBLEM. < 1323988318 155913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: list context eval returns () on error, I just checked the docs < 1323988332 97194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the question about "undef in list context" is irrelevant because eval doesn't return undef on failure, but false on failure < 1323988336 921384 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, insignificant details such as "values" involving other insignificant details such as "being returned from functions" < 1323988357 258770 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmmm, okay. < 1323988389 280353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's plausible to think "I want to use eval but don't know what it returns on error in list context, and it matters because I might get an error" < 1323988398 174234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact,I didn't know the result myself; I just looked it up < 1323988400 761125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,/, / < 1323988405 933327 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it seems like kallisti went the extra mile and just assumed :) < 1323988434 206664 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no I read the docs but I must have missed that. < 1323988469 1685 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I have a block-eval whose result is passed to a callback, and according to perl's debugger the callbacking is receiving a 1, though I'm pretty sure the only possible return values are either () or a hash. < 1323988469 566377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: perldoc -f eval < 1323988477 170350 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very confusing to me. < 1323988493 701115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you passing the block-eval to the callback? < 1323988501 787869 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :directly. < 1323988507 896054 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :list context. < 1323988517 201719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in callback (eval { ... }) ? < 1323988524 841905 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :$callback->(eval {... }) < 1323988559 600149 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm guessing what I think I should be returning is not the case? < 1323988567 411666 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh another caveat: eval returns (undef) on a syntax error < 1323988584 85588 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm checking $@ and getting no syntax errors. that also wouldn't explain the 1 < 1323988588 752842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it returns () on a syntax error in list context < 1323988621 665178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the docs open right now, they say that quite explicitly < 1323988627 171860 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1323988633 45339 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: YOU SUCK < 1323988636 425707 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is a syntax error or runtime error, or a die statement is executed, eval returns undef in scalar context or an empty list--or, for syntax errors, a list containing a single undefined value--in list context < 1323988640 285230 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: me too < 1323988642 550933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, eval { syntax error = } is a compile-time error < 1323988647 127950 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is 5.14 docs though. < 1323988650 580849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas eval "syntax error = " is a run-time error, for obvious reasons < 1323988652 309338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1323988661 703166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: hmm, it's changed since 5.10, then < 1323988666 829873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite a breaking change < 1323988676 745509 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed. also it doesn't apply to me. < 1323988689 311920 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should start using the docs on his system instead of web docs.
< 1323988709 182400 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it later goes on to explain how people think this is a bug or something. < 1323988714 618262 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and should be fixed etc < 1323988725 901390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl has no bugs, it implements Perl perfectly < 1323988727 309791 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition < 1323988733 854072 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: BLAH BLAH BLAH < 1323988749 124225 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl has bugs then. < 1323988749 300657 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-250-216.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no bugs in perl, only documentation bugs. < 1323988763 702877 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-250-216.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Perl is defined as whatever perl does. < 1323988768 671275 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yes < 1323988792 795952 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-250-216.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There cannot be bugs in a definition. Merely stupid definition. < 1323988801 94216 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay fine. < 1323988901 193372 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. duh. < 1323988922 369597 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what happens when you try to program all day without eating food first. < 1323988925 436049 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and misread debugging output. < 1323988998 702229 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1323989062 13684 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it would be interesting if perl had a sigil that deferred context. < 1323989077 469110 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't like... a coderef. < 1323989086 818286 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would be equivalent though, since it would have to be lazily evaluated. < 1323989110 729969 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words. my ?x = somefunc(2, 3); < 1323989113 863576 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't enforce a context < 1323989124 347745 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1323989126 420816 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :until ?x is evaluated elsewhere, and the context it's evaluated in is used instead. < 1323989132 823668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: yes, it'd have to be lazy < 1323989138 990928 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically equivalent to a subroutine I guess? < 1323989140 165335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would that be interesting? it seems mostly useless < 1323989244 531752 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno. It would be useful with my current callback scheme instead of enforcing list context on the result, but it may be possible with coderefs or maybe even regular subroutines. < 1323989296 38252 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently I store the callbacks result in an array, print errors as warnings, and then return the list. < 1323989318 827523 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, well it's basically impossible to check for warnings < 1323989334 978327 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :without knowing the context, because can possibly change the computation drastically. < 1323989344 296206 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+context < 1323989356 737434 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, it's irrelevant. < 1323989374 93727 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1323989538 408223 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1323990638 247929 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION → sleep
< 1323990639 227098 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1323990659 997982 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how pretty much every freelance copywriter says "lol I have 120 WPM" < 1323990668 534397 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like, the standard lie. < 1323990687 419006 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, who knows maybe every freelance copywriter ever has the exact same typing speed. < 1323990744 35883 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the context of all of this weirdness is that I'm writing code to dynamically load plugins for an IRC bot. < 1323990756 707992 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's done now. may need a few tweaks in the future though. < 1323990796 909731 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the dynamically loading part has been long done. this was specifically for calling subroutines within dynamically loaded plugins. < 1323990800 75022 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should learn how ghc-api works < 1323990833 997474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: why not just use Module::Pluggable or the like? < 1323990838 832276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I forget exactly what it's called) < 1323990847 163940 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... because I didn't know it existed. :P < 1323990857 546257 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you assumed a piece of Perl code didn't exist on CPAN? < 1323990860 527870 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you /stupid/? < 1323990891 533573 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's don't is inspired by a module on CPAN, right? < 1323990915 719328 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Acme::Don::t < 1323990987 371074 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1323990992 236661 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Acme::Don't should work as well < 1323991066 356079 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Acme'Don't, too. < 1323991155 601516 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, I've already written the code now so... :P < 1323991165 719551 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONE LESS DEPENDENCY, YEAAAH < 1323991195 72703 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it was a learning experience, etc, other things to ensure myself that the effort wasn't a waste. < 1323991199 433161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: does Haskell's don't work by somehow redefining '? < 1323991205 368608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: x' < 1323991205 544706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in some entirely unrelated way? < 1323991213 946254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, does it do do-notation? < 1323991215 358330 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (translation: are you expecting ' to be invalid in identifiers?) < 1323991215 865579 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ' is valid in identifiers < 1323991226 516422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, right, forgot < 1323991227 761704 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/acme-dont/1.1/doc/html/Acme-Dont.html < 1323991232 690880 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's just a function, there's no special don't notation < 1323991239 129518 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "don't do" < 1323991241 353926 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't $ do { blah} < 1323991242 24120 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's hard to understand about that? < 1323991259 235337 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nothing, except I thought maybe ais523 was expecting don't blocks < 1323991315 760384 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm kind of mystified by how Pluggable works. < 1323991332 715012 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it magically gives you a plugins method? < 1323991332 985782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so am I, to be fair < 1323991335 810404 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't do doesn't work, right? < 1323991339 727835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never tried to use it < 1323991356 23009 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I tried passing in a do block to something once without $ and it didn't work < 1323991358 770657 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be misremembering < 1323991394 195455 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, it doesn't < 1323991396 484538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how easy this argument is to resolve, right? < 1323991419 322485 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We were arguing? Although admittedly, it's two seconds to check < 1323991422 722663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t const do { interact id } < 1323991423 569379 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `do' < 1323991434 116102 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> id do { return "Hi" } < 1323991434 865998 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `do' < 1323991439 612795 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> id $ do { return "Hi" } < 1323991440 452308 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m [GHC.Types.Char])) < 1323991440 628376 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use ... < 1323991440 870858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t const $ do { interact id } < 1323991441 644344 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b. b -> IO () < 1323991441 820536 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also do fun with caller that might be difficult to reimplement with Pluggable < 1323991443 388351 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1323991447 714398 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :UPDATE < 1323991449 252145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so apparently the $ is required < 1323991465 528266 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for example, the command subroutine, which registers new commands, uses caller to associate modules with each command, so that when a plugin is unloaded the commands are unregistered. < 1323991469 316494 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sgeo: no, it doesn't < 1323991474 949789 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't an argument, I was providing the answer < 1323991475 875450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, something I was thinking about; do you consider "let main = interact f" unsafe? < 1323991485 199097 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's very unsafe, since it's invalid syntaxc < 1323991487 517740 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*syntax < 1323991493 705992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: err, correcting for me not remembering Haskell < 1323991496 964193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any safe f? < 1323991500 455192 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's exactly as unsafe as getContents < 1323991508 857866 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: same with "filter" which is like command except that it uses an arbitrary regex instead of a command word (commands are implemented with filter) < 1323991511 512041 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's pure, personally < 1323991517 894597 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"safe" is too much of a value judgement for me to want to comment < 1323991526 481813 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but lazy IO has well-known subtle-but-deadly performance problems < 1323991528 598158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right; you'd called unsafeInterleaveIO unsafe earlier < 1323991540 689947 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very easy to force too much, and space leaks are practically unavoidable. < 1323991541 651938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I assumed you had some definition of "safe" in mind, and wanted to get at it < 1323991551 422377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, anything starting with unsafe is unsafe :) < 1323991561 918526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was going to put "unsafe" into the name of <<= < 1323991573 975512 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :x unsafe<<= y < 1323991574 151680 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let unsafeId = id in unsafeId < 1323991574 885953 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) < 1323991575 62655 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use of `... < 1323991578 447335 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let unsafeId = id in unsafeId 2 < 1323991579 153456 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 < 1323991582 836620 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: unless kallisti defines it. ;) < 1323991588 661326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but decided not to, as the way it's going all Feather's predefined operations seem to be made entirely out of punctuation marks < 1323991593 649016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may make an effort to change that < 1323991655 630852 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laziness even without IO also has space leaks. My understanding is that it's generally handwaved away since it's easy to make those cases stricter. But why not the same with lazy IO? < 1323991809 617434 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: another thing I do that I'm not sure Pluggable does is I change the current working directory to the plugin directory. < 1323991820 499114 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then change it back. < 1323991832 361230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it does that, mostly because it doesn't strike me as being a good idea < 1323991842 296810 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: your comparison is mistaken < 1323991861 463150 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it is. the plugins can refer to their files without having to worry about paths. < 1323991941 530302 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: that's ridiculous < 1323991949 536296 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal scripts and modules can't do that, why should plugins? < 1323991959 208932 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should provide scripts a way to get at a filesystem storage, instead < 1323991973 806680 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably by passing them a path somehow < 1323991979 618201 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*provide plugins < 1323991986 881497 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-053-101.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1323992024 279840 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: normal scripts can't do what exactly? worry? < 1323992030 645822 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: for one thing, lazy IO's unpredictability has real effects < 1323992038 89802 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A908.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1323992041 198512 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :plugins should because not worrying about things is better than worrying about things. < 1323992044 878507 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: for instance, if you writeFile something, there's no guarantee it will ever be closed (!) < 1323992049 228613 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: can't assume they're run in a certain directory < 1323992110 295657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there is basically no way to make lazy IO work. the same is not at all true of lazy evaluation < 1323992288 97142 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they can't? they can usually know exactly where they're being run from. < 1323992305 767424 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I understand. < 1323992319 749123 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: please tell kallisti that perl programs don't usually change directory to the directory they're in < 1323992336 34659 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn't they? < 1323992339 297256 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the drawback? < 1323992345 768930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: user-specified files will make no sense < 1323992353 414643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without knowing what directory they're specified relative to < 1323992357 760645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty common use-case < 1323992360 721581 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : why wouldn't they? < 1323992364 629249 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they do, they have to do it themselves < 1323992367 764683 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perl interpreter doesn't do it for them < 1323992370 422360 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's a terrible idea < 1323992373 689163 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly with your bot < 1323992377 397373 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case user's don't specify filepath inputs, so it's not an issue. < 1323992393 1841 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-048-109.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1323992428 208657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: also, you're ensuring that state can never be decoupled from implementation, filesystem-wise < 1323992430 908652 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, you know, stupid < 1323992511 57040 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm ensuring that every plugin runs in its own bubble and doesn't have to worry about where its state is.. < 1323992534 258662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: most obviously: what if the plugin isn't in a writable directory? < 1323992538 636351 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: why do plugins have to store their own state, anyway? < 1323992548 432524 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should just let give them a persistence handle < 1323992550 565623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if two people want to use the same plugin? do they have to copy/symlink it? < 1323992556 24879 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which probably looks like a tied dictionary of some kind < 1323992566 132940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: this is Perl, you can say "hash" < 1323992571 111168 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's not a bad idea. < 1323992583 883386 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a hell of a lot of a better idea than changing directory every time you invoke a plugin < 1323992593 937939 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not a filthy commoner! < 1323992601 698899 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it works pretty well right now actually. :P < 1323992619 298962 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, -30 in 0.28{3 recurring} :( < 1323992622 619040 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :still plugins may have state associated with them that they'd like to transfer between bots. < 1323992626 735910 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, a quote database. < 1323992644 642085 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I agree the persistent hash is a good idea. < 1323992649 485957 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: why does the tied hash solution not permit that? actually, it should just be a tied object < 1323992650 578620 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might end up doing that for some things. < 1323992655 833713 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, why not just persist the plugin object itself? < 1323992664 887157 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :push @self->quotes, whatever, I don't know perl; < 1323992671 137492 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$self->karma{$user}++; < 1323992672 210762 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1323992677 778699 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "object"? < 1323992687 847887 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was presuming plugins are objects. < 1323992691 527565 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1323992700 204719 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implement things horribly. < 1323992712 473392 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to explain any further because you'll hate it. < 1323992717 534573 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? This is Perl, you have very few tenable options for abstraction and you ignore the most popular one? < 1323992722 294484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we persist plugins in TAEB; it leads to some interesting problems sometimes < 1323992732 117549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I found a nice OO way to solve them, which is also rather complicated < 1323992737 881141 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I probably will. Use the module ais523 told you about or I'll be nasty if you ask future questions pertaining to the code :) < 1323992748 581554 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You know what wouldn't be a problem in @? < 1323992749 975899 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: I was going to put "unsafe" into the name of <<= <-- call it <<=!!! or something < 1323992752 499131 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I use regular hashes and hashrefs instead of objects for things that are very very simple and don't require all the OO boilerplate. < 1323992752 815863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it involves custom serializer hooks < 1323992762 317854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, the problem is that various things need to /not/ be persisted < 1323992769 735842 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Man... it has state... and behaviour... and the state doesn't matter to things outside it... < 1323992775 363545 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it implements a common interface... < 1323992777 718171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the reason being because they're full of literal pointers-converted-to-integers, which obviously couldn't happen in @) < 1323992779 735183 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is a language where OOP is the common practice... < 1323992781 518025 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes but it's not a perl object. < 1323992782 465657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOPE, BOILERPLATE < 1323992788 829046 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite that being the *definition of an object*. < 1323992789 354855 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :/w/in 52 < 1323992804 802801 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure it could, if you ran nethack in a VM < 1323992815 754120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you mean TAEB? < 1323992817 885380 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't actually like perl OO. sorry. < 1323992822 791028 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, TAEB would control the nethack VM < 1323992827 879679 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: use one of the alternate object systems < 1323992834 952940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but the literal pointers are to stuff inside TAEB < 1323992849 199694 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, what? < 1323992855 640480 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed they were pointers into nethack memory < 1323992868 266077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, how can it possibly work /that/ out over telnet? < 1323992877 729502 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's TAEB! I just assume it's insane < 1323992889 548237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because it needs to use objects as hash keys < 1323992903 512990 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh. well you can do that in @ no problem, naturally < 1323992910 367437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's a Perl problem more than anything else < 1323992917 106961 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the objects have to be immutable. < 1323992927 669478 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you _could_ write a dictionary with mutable keys < 1323992930 273832 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd just be not very useful < 1323992948 31270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, in this case, the objects /are/ mutable but the hash lookup is based on sharing < 1323992956 319067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it's not the value of the object that matters, but the name < 1323992961 865135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the CS meaning of "name") < 1323992981 234905 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, you'd handle that just by overriding how they're hashed and compared for equality with an interning type or whatever < 1323992982 898988 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what are the objects, exactly? < 1323992983 101866 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I still think changing the working directory makes sense in this context. < 1323992994 49811 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: well, it's not the first thing you've been wrong about. < 1323992994 387117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: all sorts of things; things like tiles, items, etc < 1323993006 238385 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1323993008 131928 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why are they mutable? < 1323993014 532583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could convert the tiles to coordinates, but that would require something like four property lookups for every hash lookup < 1323993023 521718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because a tile object stores the known information about the tile < 1323993030 780997 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let x <<=☠ y = "test" in 2 <<=☠ 4 < 1323993031 613903 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "test" < 1323993067 294896 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, so the problem is that you're mixing what you /know/ about something with the thing itself < 1323993077 969940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, or rather the TAEB framework is doing that < 1323993091 3669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to work around the problem when writing an AI for it < 1323993093 406671 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "you"/"we" are perfectly valid terms for codebase < 1323993093 756829 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1323993105 71750 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my suggestion is to not do that :) < 1323993112 813773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, but "you" directed at me when referring to a codebase that I didn't write is confusing < 1323993119 573914 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1323993130 44920 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you'd made a fair amount of changes to TAEB itself < 1323993132 501985 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*assumed < 1323993137 461175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't see how mutability matters there; immutable objects would have exactly the same problem < 1323993145 53551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, indeed, but I can't make huge breaking changes to every part of the API < 1323993156 46688 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1323993180 237858 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, @ is great, because you'd give up before manging to implement the wrong way to do things :) < 1323993194 892243 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, I don't see how mutability matters there; immutable objects would have exactly the same problem < 1323993199 913800 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're misusing keys < 1323993202 62804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in Perl, I mean < 1323993204 440543 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :your real key is whatever the name of the object is < 1323993207 105115 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're using the object itself < 1323993216 442186 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where by "name", I mean anything equivalent to the name < 1323993220 289770 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, whatever you're interning on, basically < 1323993221 91121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, I'm using the name of the object as keys < 1323993227 461937 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: erm, what I mean is < 1323993228 151287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I am doing, using refaddr obj as the key < 1323993232 540301 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're /trying/ to use the object as a key < 1323993238 264683 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's your workaround for not being allowed to < 1323993267 47131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, I'm trying to use the object's coordinates as a key, I guess < 1323993277 95243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, a unique ID referring to the object < 1323993286 527151 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as a name. < 1323993292 733028 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the problem is that you're too baffled by the design for me to explain why it's a bad idea :) < 1323993299 499596 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how do you intern, say, items? < 1323993306 205778 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what key do you use for the intern table? < 1323993315 489057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use refaddr as the key, always < 1323993317 875139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it doesn't persist < 1323993324 666096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because good luck persisting general pointers < 1323993339 576245 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're confused < 1323993349 372503 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't intern an object with the key being the address < 1323993355 776595 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good way to get an intern table of exactly one entry < 1323993365 559975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "intern" mean here? < 1323993381 354800 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm currently trying to bring my team up high enough to fight the revamped Elite Four. Are there any training tips I'm missing? < 1323993387 97285 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, you don't actually do interning < 1323993393 243000 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: elliott: well, in this case, the objects /are/ mutable but the hash lookup is based on sharing < 1323993402 847034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: there are some daily level 70 fights which are quite good < 1323993403 799219 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: either you don't understand what sharing is, or I don't know what you're talking about < 1323993413 721057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the daily fights in Big Stadium / Small Court are scaling < 1323993422 794842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm having trouble expressing myself, which is quite common < 1323993434 948922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: also, remember to use the Lucky Egg (I think you get one without having to farm it in Black/White) < 1323993436 731036 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, let me rework this < 1323993451 471224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also use Entralink Pass Powers, but it's probably not worth the effort/setup unless you happen to have some spare < 1323993456 999682 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when you use the (address of) a tile as a hash key, what is the semantic key you are trying to use? < 1323993457 507708 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, I thought they were fixed. I am using those. You do get one without having to farm but it's sort of unreliable since I can'trely on a single 'mon < 1323993462 319286 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the location, right? < 1323993464 539677 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. coordinates < 1323993469 792635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you farm one 'mon at a time < 1323993480 342945 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :'mon? seriously? < 1323993481 299611 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I can't rely on one 'mon to fight though < 1323993487 355555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cut that out, both of you < 1323993489 847467 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ridiculous < 1323993497 483446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, with the caveat that the coordinates might not actually be known < 1323993502 234091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's common competitive abbreviation < 1323993505 392418 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: s/yes.*/no/ < 1323993506 664443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, they often leave out the apostrophe < 1323993511 228281 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what is the key if the location isn't known? < 1323993515 600810 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what daily level 70 fights? My 'ns could really use those < 1323993518 194178 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're unable to tell me what you're actually keying on, semantically < 1323993523 456005 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very worrying < 1323993524 966264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we're keying on (x, y, level) < 1323993528 706664 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it means you don't know what your program means < 1323993535 83423 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no you're not, you said those aren't always known < 1323993541 498034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the level /object/ is known < 1323993543 555071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its location isn't < 1323993554 293564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a mutable level object that represents the level < 1323993557 851162 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, and what does the level mean? < 1323993561 689398 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it basically just an enum? < 1323993578 361960 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like MainDungeon Int | ... < 1323993579 280772 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1323993586 921487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if mutating the level one tile belongs to mutates the level another tile belongs to, they're on the same level < 1323993595 494083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can, from a level object, get all tiles on that level