< 1327623005 246513 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1327623293 377464 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-199-40.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327623306 501273 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-237-5.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327625601 872042 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327625616 935449 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327625702 798099 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1327625707 997446 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327625721 793439 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327626252 811250 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I interested in Erlang now? < 1327626283 23885 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1327626285 548280 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happened to me once < 1327626294 747402 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though now I'm taking a sudden interest in perl 6. < 1327627835 66994 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327628111 818448 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1327628688 822524 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327629507 909079 :yorick!~yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1327630455 5112 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1327631064 903526 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed my CatArrow class slightly. Now its methods are arr1, arr2, (*+*), (&|&), and fanout. The minimum definition is (*+*) and fanout. < 1327631065 200422 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1327631071 11714 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :?messages < 1327631071 444421 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 4d 20h 2m 8s ago: Sounds like you could generalize the monoid for your pure BF implementation, e.g. make a paintfuck implementation with the (Sum Int, Sum Int) monoid :P < 1327631071 603396 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 2d 17h 30m 37s ago: There is reallyunsafeptrequality#, but as the name says that's really unsafe < 1327631071 603578 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said 2d 17h 30m 8s ago: *reallyUnsafePtrEquality# < 1327631199 57357 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that! < 1327631613 662423 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, I wouldn't just write a BF interpreter in Erlang, I'd write some sort of BF server? :D < 1327632159 89276 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://beta.yle.fi/pressanvaalit_2012/ explain please thank you. < 1327632472 559507 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327632647 762586 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what a BF server would look like < 1327632791 39559 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad < 1327633098 113853 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolang server < 1327633184 470272 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only one I know of that uses a server is Network Headache, and the server is no longer online < 1327633544 594785 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: YES < 1327633548 464894 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :network headache server < 1327633549 564570 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it. < 1327633584 798088 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been implemented before < 1327633589 917823 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? < 1327633591 579368 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess no reason not to implement it again < 1327633591 802496 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it < 1327633592 717773 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it. < 1327633599 823912 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it an erlang server? < 1327633604 39032 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python < 1327633611 254587 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I think we know what needs to be done. < 1327633712 102235 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't thoroughly understand the OTP < 1327633893 601270 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made up a CatArrow for Lens: instance CatArrow Lens (,) where { Lens x *+* Lens y = Lens $ \(a, b) -> store (\(a', b') -> (peek a' $ x a, peek b' $ y b)) (pos $ x a, pos $ y b); fanout = Lens $ \x -> store snd (x, x); }; < 1327633930 28153 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is not Arrow because there is no functor from (->) to Lens < 1327633967 226290 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think this instance is correct? < 1327635150 414970 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what Erlnomic would be like < 1327635165 577899 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardest thing I can think of is making it safely hold onto untrusted code < 1327635727 242547 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327637181 995182 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327637512 281815 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327637814 884231 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327637857 602575 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327637906 82915 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327639813 14793 :NihilistDandy!~textual@stu-48-155-171-184.champlain.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327646264 92861 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327646367 398351 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327646544 465078 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-149-137.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327646704 323936 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-199-40.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327647690 394332 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: SLEEP, GLORIOUS SLEEP < 1327651472 56736 :NihilistDandy!~textual@stu-48-155-171-184.champlain.edu QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/ < 1327653151 541807 :Frooxius_!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327653151 749031 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327653154 289391 :Frooxius_!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 NICK :Frooxius < 1327654605 491692 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-001-153.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1327655628 488270 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1327656617 467586 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1327657374 865433 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-001-153.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327657472 710742 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327659184 660751 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1327659214 199463 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I make robots.txt tell to disallow everything except wget, in which case it is delayed half a second per request, unless the user overrides that option on the wget command-line? < 1327659596 150326 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think I figure out < 1327661097 499082 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-247-184.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327661104 520687 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-149-137.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327661144 265367 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget does not understand Crawl-delay but that is OK; it is in there in case a later version does support it < 1327661579 776749 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1327661595 489834 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyone using some other crawler will have to tell it... to impersonate wget. < 1327661626 72639 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Well, or just to ignore robots.txt < 1327661711 287812 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What others are there anyways, that are used manually similar to wget? < 1327662895 505128 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327664813 363781 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327665117 270021 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :curl? < 1327665123 578699 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hi < 1327666564 877573 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327667588 92725 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "A lens is a monoidal natural transformation between higher-order coalgebra functors" >wisdom/lens < 1327667599 792927 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1327667606 729465 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? lens < 1327667610 835631 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lens is a monoidal natural transformation between higher-order coalgebra functors < 1327667906 690290 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know enough to know whether that makes sense or is gibberish < 1327667941 233328 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can confirm that it makes sense up to 'coalgebra'. < 1327667942 54881 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _think_ it's actually true, although it's half a quote from haskell weekly news so probably said in jest < 1327667954 852274 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what a coalgebra is. < 1327667968 692246 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dual of an algebra, of course! < 1327668012 721858 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know precisely what they are, but i think comonads correspond to coalgebras in the way monads correspond to algebras, somehow < 1327668029 304735 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the category of an algebra? < 1327668064 179566 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebraic structures and algebra homomorphisms is one, at least < 1327668067 550818 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I thought comonad had to do with "dual category" not "dual monad" so it would make sense that coalgebra had a similar relation. < 1327668078 920467 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't think curl(1) reads robots.txt at all. < 1327668374 643664 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to write one final piece of Erlang tomorrow than is swearing it off < 1327668395 790830 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, the hot swapping stuff is very tricky to get right, and if it's avoidable, it's best avoided. < 1327668451 276913 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, why would you even be doing Erlang if you're not going to be all fancy and hot-swappy? < 1327668481 197297 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : because I thought comonad had to do with "dual category" not "dual monad" so it would make sense that coalgebra had a similar relation. < 1327668494 203725 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A comonad is a monad in the dual category, i.e. a dual monad. < 1327668522 367594 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, because I thought it would make hot-swapping easy < 1327668532 511636 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes < 1327668554 536098 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A duel monad is deadly. < 1327668555 103743 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes that's the conclusion I reached about the hot swapping < 1327668609 237438 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :other reasons to use Erlang: it handles distributed programming almost automatically for you < 1327668615 203403 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, you know, you're not fooling anyone when you say 'yes' after something's explained to you. < 1327668628 606610 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: correct. there is nothing to be fooled about. < 1327668681 320462 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will say "yes" in a way that implies something different to Phantom_Hoover next time. < 1327668696 19219 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes~ >^.^< < 1327668697 633713 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better. < 1327668731 481053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? yes < 1327668734 594559 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1327668741 490560 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo: yes < 1327668757 638731 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes >_< < 1327668803 2087 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I was not confused about the meaning of dual monad, I was more confused about if coalgebra meant "dual algebra" or "the algebra of a dual something-else." does that make things clearer? < 1327668818 439580 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't sure what co- meant in this context. < 1327668834 554805 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes some things clearer, although they were already quite clear. < 1327668872 737465 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :co- means you turn some arrows around. exactly _which_ arrows, is anyone's guess. < 1327669207 90313 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to be able to work out categoric duals. But then I took an arrow to the knee. < 1327669247 677654 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... < 1327669326 250140 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't sure what - meant in this ntext. < 1327669371 436400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what is this about haskell types being useless and stupid? < 1327669408 274755 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm? < 1327669431 663369 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shachaf: Haskell's type system is the perfect mix of useless and stupid." < 1327669451 706215 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with kallisti < 1327669460 524173 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... inde < 1327669479 379300 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed < 1327669481 915071 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, quick, monqy and kallisti are spaming < 1327669489 324467 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1327669493 815917 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was @remembered out of context. < 1327669501 801075 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:38:03 tigger: for what it's worth, it's a more than fair question to have :-) Just the sort of thing that needs an even smarter type system than Haskell's, or a less safe one < 1327669547 709182 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:25:58 tigger: (\[a, b, c, d, e] -> construct a b c d e) <$> replicateA 5 parseByte < 1327669564 975862 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :People were talking about how using variable-length lists like that was unsafe, and the constraint should be verified in the type system. < 1327669570 374286 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: something passive aggressively directed at both you and Phantom_Hoover simultaneously while also commending monqy for his like-minded attitude. < 1327669574 79771 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1327669585 608145 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Phantom_Hoover/oerjan/ < 1327669632 410929 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i have to ban you now, otherwise elliott might think i'm no longer power tripping and come back. < 1327669648 48038 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent < 1327669662 408077 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a wonderful circle of passive aggression. so good. < 1327669681 751336 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :an inward spiral, more like. < 1327669687 51880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST LIKE MY LIFE < 1327669694 733804 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott thinks you're power-tripping? < 1327669695 965813 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_;;; < 1327669696 457412 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1327669712 629006 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he got +q'd for spamming the channel with pages of the word "really" < 1327669717 662053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well he said that while rageparting, anyway < 1327669728 186854 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes he was likely just angry about it. < 1327669791 581783 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: clearly what they need is the unsafeCoerce in Agda mentioned in another hwn quote < 1327669820 354481 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I've lately found myself attempting to apply Bayesian inference to any problem requiring any remote degree of pattern recognition < 1327669854 910433 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what other techniques are there that are similar? < 1327669877 429314 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was quoted in HWN? :-( < 1327669882 537864 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1327669901 616683 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how otherwise would i find out about quotes < 1327669903 286818 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote < 1327669903 516594 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :TomMD says: Never trust IO < 1327669932 92638 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN is horribly out of date. < 1327669943 369582 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327669962 943339 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone add http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/ , please. < 1327670006 642813 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327670012 646706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :either they just did, or you missed it < 1327670018 312352 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm not familiar with ntemplatecodes and their duals. < 1327670101 946461 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible some of the other links are broken, of course < 1327670118 503727 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89AF5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327670161 230579 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote shachaf < 1327670161 392646 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what < 1327670161 392799 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1327670161 554614 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf says: Sufficiently advanced misunderstanding is indistinguishable from trolling. < 1327670161 760424 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1327670213 990078 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a distinction needs to be made between good trolling and bad trolling. < 1327670221 808144 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some trolling is quite obvious. < 1327670258 367847 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's generally any combination of (in)effective and (non-)obvious < 1327670298 163995 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote oerjan < 1327670298 560570 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan says: i only do impractical things < 1327670302 13422 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote oerjan < 1327670302 349057 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan says: i only do impractical things < 1327670303 914559 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote oerjan < 1327670304 205229 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote oerjan < 1327670304 367248 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan says: i only do impractical things < 1327670304 649469 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan says: i only do impractical things < 1327670308 108124 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Thomas Bayes is your Lord thy God, and you shalt not have any other ones. Why would you want to do anything that's *not right*? (There are quite many ways to actually *do* Bayesian inference for all the interesting problems where you can't ever solve anything, though.) ((I guess you might count the MDL principle a sensible-ish "non-Bayesian" tool.)) < 1327670308 544601 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's all you do. < 1327670310 753696 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote oerjan < 1327670314 260713 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :7) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 17) ehird has gone insane, clearly. \ 19) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 22) In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 23) IN AN < 1327670315 690805 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: quite so. < 1327670319 124299 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote oerjan < 1327670322 549615 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :7) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 17) ehird has gone insane, clearly. \ 19) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 22) In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 23) IN AN < 1327670330 955937 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is `quote sequential? < 1327670336 15694 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ridiculous. < 1327670341 5929 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote shachaf < 1327670344 722905 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :617) elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 663) Real Tar is GNU tar. You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 701) VMS Mosaic? I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS. < 1327670348 29759 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327670348 881399 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: `quote doesn't randomize with an argument. < 1327670349 65042 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327670351 307065 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :131) what's the data of? [...] Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation I have no problems with you being interested in online games but the necrophilia is disturbing < 1327670373 598277 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the different techniques are essentially which models/events you use, I guess? < 1327670383 657216 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there is `pastequotes when you want all of them < 1327670404 727386 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes oerjan < 1327670408 943 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :347) destroying a local copy of the world is kind of like raping a robochick with a shovel tho < 1327670409 11297 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4501 < 1327670410 325171 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes shachaf < 1327670415 175089 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10378 < 1327670471 770256 :shachaf!~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is elliott in Hexham? < 1327670482 216906 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1327670497 407128 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, unless he has fled recently, and that's why we don't see him. < 1327670534 824945 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but the main idea would appear to be that you iterate conditional probabilities upon new events. < 1327670550 371340 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there more specific techniques with... names... I could learn? < 1327670822 308314 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Some keywords would be the EM (expectation-maximization) algorithm (except you can never get closed-form solutions for anything ever, except maybe for some Gaussians); the variational Bayesian inference; all the Monte Carlo -style sampling-based approaches (Gibbs sampling, Metropolis-Hastings sampling); and then all the things where you do a Bayesian network graphical model and use one of the graph-based inference thingies (exact, which you prob < 1327670843 930805 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... which you probably can't do to anything interesting; or inexact, like "X belief propagation" for all kinds of X (e.g. loopy)). < 1327670859 184326 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite a few names. < 1327670899 963002 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327670934 155933 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if the AI course at his university is actually good. < 1327670939 249882 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it. nothing here has been good so far. < 1327670948 198003 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :data structures wasn't bad though. < 1327670950 424037 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually. < 1327670975 470026 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to like the name "loopy belief propagation" a lot, even if it's kinda fuzzy thing, and you're always kind-of wondering whether it'll converge or not. < 1327670982 976263 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it sounds happy. < 1327671039 128843 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's just belief propagation except your graph's got some cycles. Belief propagation converges to an exact solution in a tree, or some-such.) < 1327671049 474339 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327671060 48847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Quite a lot of people are very enthusiastic about graphical models.) < 1327671188 972067 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for AI courses, at least ours isn't really "machine-learningy" at all, but it's still sort-of interesting stuff, maybe. Search things (A* and the like) and logic-programming related topics, and then assorted odd bits. < 1327671199 300078 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also they're going to scrap it after this year.) < 1327671245 843461 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327671278 286636 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the robots told them to scrap it, or else... < 1327671289 413879 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm more interested in machine learning than any of that stuff. < 1327671298 256001 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except logic programming. < 1327671304 212729 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I've been learning a little about. < 1327671304 826137 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-140.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327671305 157499 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-140.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1327671305 319203 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327671308 152839 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very possible. People keep asking me what's replacing it, and I have to be all "well uh..." < 1327671309 688900 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :studying some prolog. < 1327671313 82932 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since nothing really is.) < 1327671391 139620 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also using LogicT in my portal chess implementation, but I'm really just using it as a glorified (and more efficient) list monad. < 1327671436 457312 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that the professor doing the courses from that... uh, professorship, retired a couple of years ago, and the CSE department (which is so much about engineering it's probably best called CsE or something) doesn't feel like keeping those things running; while our "actual computer *science*, guys" department -- formed by forcibly combining the machine learning lab and the theory lab -- doesn't have an equivalent "introductionary" and wide-scope thin < 1327671472 116281 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a shame. < 1327671499 904652 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my school is a small engineering school based off of Georgia Tech. so the entire curriculum is focused on engineering mostly. < 1327671516 615303 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327671587 75262 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've decided to get a dual major in math because I feel my theoretical education is lacking. Also it probably looks good on a resume. :P < 1327671608 259762 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOWEVER. I have to continue with calculus which I have forgotten ridiculous amounts of stuff about... < 1327671688 755991 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :georgia tech, that's where lipton of godel's lost letter is < 1327671703 100974 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll be jumping into Calc 3 after like 2-3 years of forgetting about Calc 2 (not to mention my Calc 2 teacher was absolutely terribly and never got beyond the first two chapters, and was later fired I found out) < 1327671737 916036 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't think I ever properly learned all of the integration methods that you're typically supposed to learn. < 1327671764 811239 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I definitely know nothing about convergence/divergence of infinite series. < 1327671772 87882 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327671811 15777 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I think I can learn these things pretty fast. < 1327671813 438883 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I need to. < 1327671849 561388 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is much better at differential equations than integration. < 1327671908 966234 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...you need the latter for the former :P < 1327671948 477907 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although probably the exercises for the former will not use the hard integrals < 1327671978 163133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Or alternatively they'll be so hard you can't do closed-form solutions. < 1327671985 58512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too. < 1327672008 96348 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :however a dual major is quite a lot of extra classes. definitely an extra year. < 1327672015 386637 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: maybe you need to re-learn calc 2 right now < 1327672025 60285 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/re-// < 1327672037 918503 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :says the guy who has no idea < 1327672039 71271 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I might still have my calc book actually. < 1327672050 435817 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere. those things are hard to sell. < 1327672061 698517 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking about pi today < 1327672071 824174 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while on a bus < 1327672136 487279 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking that if you took a unit line, and curved it into a circle with endpoints meeting, and then scaled that circle up until the radius was a unit circle < 1327672149 509390 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then pi would be the scaling factor of that circle < 1327672159 932242 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1327672168 516571 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327672182 689440 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is basically how pi is defined. pi = C/d < 1327672219 285948 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a unit circle has a circumfrence of pi. < 1327672231 612159 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TODAY IN #ESOTERIC: iti discovers pi. < 1327672258 420880 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it leaves me as puzzled as ever as to why it is irrational :D < 1327672267 716202 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the whole world would collapse if pi was rational < 1327672287 9242 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a dual major is just a major in the opposite category, right? < 1327672313 548312 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...not quite. :P < 1327672321 713537 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1327672335 252612 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: pi is irrational because it isn't expressable as a ratio of two integers. < 1327672341 932412 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hand-wavey. < 1327672353 784034 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that was my way of ascertaining that circles can exist < 1327672367 674384 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the idea that every circle is a set of straight lines < 1327672388 556701 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically this is saying that both the circumfrence of a circle and its diameter cannot both be integers. < 1327672396 99389 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: the proof that pi is irrational is fairly advanced < 1327672398 70843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't actually know it < 1327672402 218324 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proving that pi is irrational is tricky. < 1327672412 895426 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :e is much easier, i understand < 1327672435 968329 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_22/7_exceeds_%CF%80 < 1327672442 329934 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to show this to my father... < 1327672459 424055 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows a number of people who were convinced that 22/7 = pi < 1327672460 714753 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had this "Matrix Computations" course, it was the funniest. There was a one lecture's worth of motivation of how Google is just a numerical linear algebra problem (apparently you can formulate PageRank in terms of an internet-sized matrix), real highfalutin stuff; and then the rest was just matrix decompositions and "show this and that for a Hermitian positive semidefinite P" and even few bits of floating-point error estimation of all things. < 1327672557 283965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even formulate PageRank as an eigenvalue problem of that huge honking matrix, if I recall it right. < 1327672589 142463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are all in that matrix < 1327672607 724502 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Locked in it, one might say. < 1327672621 742141 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the matrix of solidity < 1327672638 922439 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... rears it's ugly head again < 1327672668 57012 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never really went away < 1327672706 745416 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1327672708 152408 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but! < 1327672721 275655 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have the circumference of 1 circle < 1327672728 198122 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the circumference of another circle < 1327672760 435415 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can scale between them eh < 1327672803 241085 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you can start with the unit circumference... and then scale the circle up to a circumference of 2 < 1327672816 662751 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you never know how far you scaled by :-? < 1327672844 543361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was with you until that last line < 1327672863 238246 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was not with me even tat far < 1327672875 483065 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :figures < 1327672881 199387 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know its not possible that i can think of anything new in pi < 1327672897 169229 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You were hoping for some topology, right? They're always turning things to other things. < 1327672922 96094 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still.. the ratio of the circumferences of 2 circles must be quite fascinating < 1327672935 940403 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C1/C2 < 1327672938 438416 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topology i know doesn't involve much pi < 1327672939 745068 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's approximately as fascinating as the ratio of the diamaters of the circles. < 1327672956 71934 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but diameters are just lines < 1327672969 778008 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric : :-s < 1327672987 490395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, C1=pi*d1, C2=pi*d2, C1/C2 = (pi*d1)/(pi*d2) = d1/d2, you know. < 1327673007 972976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ration of the circumferences is the same as the ratio of the diameters. i think archimedes proved that, or something. < 1327673008 231611 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1327673011 811313 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-n < 1327673045 868195 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus proving pi existed as something common for all circles < 1327673062 781135 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :*My* circles have a pi of 4, so there. < 1327673067 302755 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its not a useless notion :D < 1327673076 657163 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only an extremely redundant one < 1327673106 992364 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sadly my circles aren't very round, either.) < 1327673118 139687 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my circles are fucking round < 1327673169 46887 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we call those pi = 4 circles "squares" around here < 1327673196 274734 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recently read about the ballsiest balls humankind has ever produced. < 1327673212 887693 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The gyroscopes in GP-B are the most perfect spheres ever made by humans. (The experiment actually carries four gyroscopes for redundancy.) These ping pong-sized balls of fused quartz and silicon are 1.5 inches across and never vary from a perfect sphere by more than 40 atomic layers. That means that if these gyroscopes were the size of the Earth, the elevation of the entire surface would vary by no more than 12 feet!" < 1327673237 605385 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly I couldn't find a "buy now" link. < 1327673260 742233 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and _still_ the experiment essentially failed (not totally, but enough that other experiments had surpassed them in quality before the results were out) < 1327673261 678763 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-001-153.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1327673264 183542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :afair < 1327673270 834870 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess it might get dented easily. But still. < 1327673278 305124 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be; I was just interested in their balls. < 1327673314 556071 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1am and cold.. time for my supreme commander jacket < 1327673323 902747 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :formerly known as a parker < 1327673324 97062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem was something about unforeseen electric or magnetic fields on the balls < 1327673365 820945 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they did spin it as a success, though < 1327673380 80619 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :some time last year < 1327673481 698886 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Science journals have expressed negative overviews, citing the $760,000,000 cost and that prior experiments had made 130-150 times more accurate measures over six years earlier." < 1327673486 214939 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite some success. < 1327673499 218993 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least they had balls. < 1327673613 659813 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1327673621 309500 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327673650 470003 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so could we make a topology where C/d = 3? < 1327673711 737573 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says knowing we could < 1327673750 160858 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITYM measure space. < 1327673762 141093 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked oerjan and oklopol and both said they didn't know. < 1327673769 306547 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not at all obvious. < 1327673796 416180 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can sort of think of a hexagonal tiling as having that < 1327673851 613174 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can that be made arbitrarily small... < 1327673868 284521 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinitesimally small < 1327674013 142476 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1327674584 299091 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about just starting to speak of circles in spherical geometry instead? If you look at circumference/diameter, you just need a circle of suitable size to get c/d = 3. < 1327675519 762100 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327675930 494480 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327675957 437254 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@95.129.103.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327676179 786032 :itidus20!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327676437 486097 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1327676961 812010 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327680759 111226 :derdon_!~derdon@pD9E1D731.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327680931 506771 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89AF5.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327682089 788491 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327682603 812179 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327682604 26797 :kallisti!~eris@h247.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1327682604 189062 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1327682767 762751 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think >>= probably easier to understand in terms of fmap and join < 1327682830 884209 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that newcomers perhaps won't recognize the immediate connection on why >>= appears to be "central" to Haskell's framing of monads. < 1327682898 638292 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps one angle of approach would be to explore so-called monadic functions, and how they frequently arise in various, seemingly unrelated problems. < 1327682958 655015 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course m a -> m a is an equally important case, so functors should be discussed in detail as well, probably before monads. This approach isn't really anything new. Most well-written tutorials begin with functors first. < 1327683066 991541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange, ubuntu decided to update firefox to the last version on the 10.04 LTS release. (And no I don't have the backport repo enabled) < 1327683069 446729 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the list monad is actually a good candidate as a starting example. Firstly, because it transitions well from discussing Functors, where the easiest example is lists, because by then you're probably already familiar with map. Secondly, it's not quite as trivial as monads like Maybe, and not as magical as IO. It does something pure under the hood. < 1327685516 705125 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to describe the denotational semantics of Haskell < 1327685542 575517 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you normally describe the semantics of Core or STG, and thus equivalently Haskell < 1327685573 691965 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, would you denote the semantics of Haskell itself. < 1327685598 603709 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Core would probably be a better candidate than STG < 1327685648 797453 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not quite as different from Haskell as STG is. < 1327685798 76128 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I guess that isn't really necessary < 1327685843 84559 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably more work if you want to be rigorously correct < 1327686514 887344 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327686679 833400 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327686845 766774 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I just learned what monotone means. :> < 1327687206 898395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What was it before in 10.04? < 1327687235 983705 :Klisz!~Klisz@c-67-161-147-186.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327687309 419295 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the post-3 versions aren't really "major versions" in which you could sensibly stay in K.x instead of going to (K+1).y, at least if you expect any security patches. < 1327688096 359472 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-114.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688104 441748 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-247-184.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327688548 179635 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/en/math/9/d/7/9d767770a5813fd4292965450c4b3092.png < 1327688556 871665 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the big arrow thing mean in this? < 1327688669 175720 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-210-114.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327688675 35408 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-194-96.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688714 39360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688756 655801 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you trying to hide you're reading wikibooks/Haskell/Denotational_semantics there? < 1327688785 700883 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guilty pleasures and all that. < 1327688895 86885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688897 115343 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688897 277176 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688897 439058 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688898 37303 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688898 199237 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688898 599869 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688899 488613 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :*.net *.split < 1327688900 640974 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688901 53482 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688910 5957 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688920 969384 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688925 238228 :kmc!~keegan@c-98-216-51-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688965 891298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327688991 37640 :Nisstyre!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327689117 402937 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1327689211 471219 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: If g is the Y combinator and f factorial, it's the same as the arrow in Haskell's lambda abstractions like (\x -> x). (Does this arrow have a name?) < 1327689262 382184 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: U+21A6 RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR. Alias names: z notation maplet. < 1327689287 401767 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I meant the arrow in \x -> x. < 1327689289 550496 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-198-197.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1327689309 808221 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: (And yes, I know it's HYPHEN-MINUS followed by GREATER-THAN SIGN.) < 1327689317 300095 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :NNN. < 1327689322 667302 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had *just* finished writing that. < 1327689330 355817 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You... ruiner. < 1327689332 65616 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: so it defines a function < 1327689342 289791 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: That's what it looks like. < 1327689350 56199 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make sense < 1327689364 73822 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: So the pic says "f equals g(f) equals \n ->" etc. < 1327689371 645259 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1327689380 571753 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so g < 1327689382 28840 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1327689384 716356 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate < 1327689394 915853 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar < 1327689408 383898 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, no < 1327689409 825525 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1327689414 735108 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :something else is going on. < 1327689416 688188 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix or similar, presumably. < 1327689485 399289 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let g = fix; f fac n = if n == 0 then 1 else n * fac (n-1) in g f 5 < 1327689486 345039 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 120 < 1327689487 258620 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see. < 1327689493 948030 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's not quite fix though < 1327689621 915950 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-247-55.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327689629 885590 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-194-96.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1327689681 305796 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-162-123.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327689722 311875 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1327689723 991259 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that one it is. < 1327689849 792810 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327690654 26775 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "*actual pirates*" < 1327690654 988196 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "*actual pirates*" < 1327690880 184963 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Factual pirates. < 1327692686 696395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a reply back from Graue, apparently he doesn't have time to reconfigure MediaWiki any more < 1327693999 185232 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327694069 96070 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327694148 906091 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327694421 781261 :calamari!~jeffryj@32.97.110.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327694436 30523 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327694941 918636 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1327696484 946196 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327696602 258321 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327696631 602516 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1327696676 180844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1327696951 684430 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327697100 570692 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1327697677 143443 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327697848 787860 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1327698408 531846 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327698810 164236 :calamari!~jeffryj@32.97.110.61 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1327698878 973348 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Now open for Vampires | Take a trip to see our Castles | Get your esoblood here! | Claims elliott shortage hurts productivity "Absurd, bleh" | Glorious optators "worried, bleh" about sudden population decline | Based on the power of immortality! | Spotted marsh elliott spotted in other marsh | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1327699018 689089 :TeruFSX_!~quassel@71-210-150-147.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1327699592 307620 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327699607 824971 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-247-55.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kinda weird how slow conversation is in here sans elliott. < 1327699686 764959 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird? you mean awesome! < 1327699912 794970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I think Backslash Calculus's BF-like representation is hilarious < 1327699919 557882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and secretly hope it's designed to troll Phantom_Hoover < 1327699948 988326 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's kinda weird how slow conversation is in here sans elliott. < 1327699970 242675 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check the tunes logs sizes for 14/1 and 15/1. < 1327700003 330481 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327700006 516085 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-162-123.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327700253 614684 :_Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-162-123.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327700674 764629 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did elliott huff? < 1327700697 978668 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-202-141.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327700702 44058 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-247-55.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327700719 691634 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hazards a guess on 14/1 or 15/! < 1327700721 522447 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*1 < 1327700806 47817 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1327700819 184360 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't possibly guess < 1327700837 497338 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats oklopol -----### < 1327700842 495787 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1327700861 281022 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you guess something about a date and not tell me what it is < 1327700885 853316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:32 Phantom_Hoover> It's kinda weird how slow conversation is in here sans elliott. < 1327700888 953328 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:32 Phantom_Hoover> Check the tunes logs sizes for 14/1 and 15/1. < 1327700892 267581 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:44 oklopol> when did elliott huff? < 1327700896 587414 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay following you sofar < 1327700918 826411 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:44 * oerjan hazards a guess on 14/1 or 15/! < 1327700928 957455 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED < 1327700932 156914 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1327700946 606432 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw you accidentally pasted some of my and Phantom_Hoover's lines too < 1327700956 787507 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess you noticed that too < 1327700963 39425 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1327700963 85352 NAMES :#esoteric < 1327700965 692809 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway nm, i'll keep thinking about your guess < 1327700986 333161 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so elliott left on 15. < 1327700988 477020 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1327700989 494330 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric oklopol :Trying to get this dense object out of the channel before we get swallowed by it < 1327700999 519647 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327700999 734215 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1327700999 757178 NAMES :#esoteric < 1327701001 454065 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late :D < 1327701004 470244 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1327701033 509033 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 69) Warrigal: what do you mean by 21?" < 1327701056 32022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't really mind the channel being more relaxed < 1327701069 287389 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 69 < 1327701072 855795 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :69) Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? < 1327701081 658099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's strange without elliott, but I respect his decision to leave, and the channel's still useful for its intended purpose and at least one of its secondary purposes < 1327701096 498964 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah elliott was a bit too serious about esolangs really, it became all about the mone < 1327701097 352542 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1327701132 634180 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well without elliott, who's going to keep my quote rate up? < 1327701168 660897 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i think if he were here, then that one above would get killed in one of his quote purges < 1327701212 41885 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1327701221 946506 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeeeeah elliott would totally remove one of my quotes < 1327701351 918169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327701353 478402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327701354 776224 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :76) What do you call the husband of my first cousin once removed? Warrigal: "Hey, Sexy." < 1327701354 952831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327701356 478587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327701357 975160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1327701366 394241 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :173) Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN < 1327701366 556265 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :688) I'd insult you behind your back, but I don't care which side of your back I insult you on. < 1327701415 754709 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :74) Invalid! Kill! Kill! I get that feeling too. < 1327701415 953849 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :116) I am an inherently pornographic being. < 1327701434 139717 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1327701441 420540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, those are pretty much all bad, apart from 688 < 1327701442 5543 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" A dynamical system is minimal if every point's orbit is dense? That sounds... like a strange thing to say." yeah, when would this ever be worth mentioning < 1327701445 64680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :opinions on which I should delete? < 1327701456 317391 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote dynamical < 1327701459 904571 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :617) elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. < 1327701468 853168 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote orbit < 1327701472 776036 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :673) You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. It wasn't in deep space. It was orbiting Bajor. < 1327701478 730103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't think they were that bad... < 1327701480 838694 :tswett!~Warrigal@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs. < 1327701519 790961 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oerjan mentions it in his thing? < 1327701521 565169 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1327701527 155799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 76 < 1327701530 881702 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* What do you call the husband of my first cousin once removed? Warrigal: "Hey, Sexy." < 1327701535 894623 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow i wonder how similar our maths are/were < 1327701536 382164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIVE QUOTES ENTER, FOUR QUOTES LEAVE < 1327701572 110138 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you ever do stuff with the cantor-bendixon rank? i solved an open problem about 2D SFTs and that thing today < 1327701584 39705 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and another problem that was actually hard) < 1327701594 424548 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot say i recall ever hearing the term < 1327701628 999294 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what the derivative of a topological space is? in any case it's just that you remove the isolated points < 1327701641 669279 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what a 2d sft is? < 1327701644 344796 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what i mean by it < 1327701657 793198 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically just a tiling < 1327701661 191983 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyhow < 1327701662 129601 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd guess sft is "shift of finite type" < 1327701664 66304 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1327701666 130942 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1327701675 490636 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's always used in symbolic dynamics as i know it < 1327701679 383268 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i've heard, although not done work on < 1327701695 590198 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that and sofic shifts is usually what i do < 1327701699 409886 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since iirc they're like the opposite of minimal < 1327701703 141754 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327701720 419692 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but usually you at least work with transitive ones < 1327701745 924500 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bit like minimality... < 1327701754 36222 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some sense < 1327701794 702651 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case there was this open problem whether there's a countable 2D SFT such that for some ordinal n, the nth derivative is empty, but it's not empty for any finite ordinal < 1327701809 454304 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there totally is < 1327701824 534566 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i recall certain transitive systems other than minimal ones can be given bratteli-vershik diagrams < 1327701861 8223 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also constructed a 1D subshift with rank omega^omega (rank is when the fixed point of derivation is reached) < 1327701888 73370 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the cantor-bendixon rank that is. sometimes it also means when the thing becomes empty but that's just stupid.) < 1327701905 679928 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still don't remember what a bratteli-vershik diagram is < 1327701916 33499 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm < 1327701941 185848 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you done subshift stuff? < 1327701957 487771 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was a subshift again < 1327701961 594575 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've talked about this but i understood like 0 < 1327701969 808364 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed shift-invariant set < 1327701986 774320 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the product topology on S^\Z < 1327701991 496673 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the toeplitz systems count as subshifts, then < 1327702012 871464 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, every cell has a period, so to speak? < 1327702031 122298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1327702037 308871 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what toeplitz sequences are at least < 1327702043 521867 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are not closed < 1327702053 763989 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they're the subshifts generated by toeplitz sequences < 1327702054 403860 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the set of them isn't < 1327702058 397739 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1327702066 148687 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1327702093 23596 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've only encountered them because some dude ran CA on them with the besicovitch topology and proved some trivial stuff < 1327702189 426390 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the space of toeplitz sequences (probably he too used its closure, not that it makes the slightest difference in this case probably) < 1327702204 458136 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :toeplitz sequences are i've seen quite a few times < 1327702208 313528 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are? < 1327702211 401578 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-are < 1327702354 982919 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, if you identify conjugate systems, subshifts correspond to expansive ones. < 1327702381 766865 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a system? < 1327702404 164495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimal dynamic system on a cantor set... < 1327702405 392520 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :compact metric space plus homeomorphism? < 1327702437 392398 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay right < 1327702474 798137 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a cantor set is anything homeomorphic to the usual one < 1327702489 355495 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so your dynamics is given by a homeomorphism? < 1327702519 823024 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, yes. although i also looked a little bit on using two. < 1327702522 308211 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise expansive doesn't really mean anything but just checking < 1327702544 350245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not in relation to the expansive stuff, though) < 1327702579 758981 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we needed to put expansive as an explicit added requirement to our condition on the diagrams to get toeplitz systems < 1327702622 646799 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call the branch of math that you did? < 1327702629 794772 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a picture in the paper of the diagram for a system which satisfies the rest but not expansivity < 1327702645 391820 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :really this sounds exactly like what we're doing except you're perhaps doing it oh so differently. < 1327702708 756629 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327702714 734391 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimal cantor dynamical systems, with slight generalization to all sides to see if something interesting cropped up? < 1327702738 363211 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so i suppose your dynamics aren't in general cellular automata (that is, not shift commuting if you choose S^Z as the cantor set)? < 1327702742 312023 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a lot about orbit equivalence and k-theory, since that's the fundamental theorem of my advisor < 1327702754 514020 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and his colleagues) < 1327702803 425806 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :our dynamics _are_ the shifts < 1327702804 932653 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i mentioned there's a paper on k-theory on my desk since it's been there forever and i don't get it < 1327702810 835675 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh- < 1327702814 540753 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1327702821 636030 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then how do you have two? < 1327702836 675959 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :S^(Z^2) ? :P < 1327702853 56750 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2D subshifts, exactly what i worked on today < 1327702884 998843 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, these were not minimal systems. < 1327702905 52617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :more seriously, the dynamics are shifts _if_ we are looking at sequences, which we weren't in general < 1327702929 584317 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :since minimal systems are transitive and transitive systems have rank 0 < 1327702941 40048 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cantor-bendixon rank that is < 1327702954 225374 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're more analogous to shifts than to CA dynamics < 1327702978 160836 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else could they be? < 1327702980 624983 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1327702991 433249 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a natural dynamics is to appear < 1327703055 602280 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um we were looking at _all_ minimal systems by a single homeomorphism on cantor sets as our base case. no requirement that they were sequences < 1327703137 937939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bratteli-vershik diagrams are essentially a different way of naturally describing such dynamics, which don't need to be shifts < 1327703168 844578 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but will be conjugate to shifts iff the system is expansive < 1327703176 943669 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i don't get is, if you take a homeomorphism with say S^\N from the cantor set, don't you get a homeomorphism on S^\N and some minimal subsystems of S^\N < 1327703186 127423 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean they don't have to be sequences? < 1327703225 880506 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i don't know what you mean by a cantor set, if you cannot just simply move to S^\N directly. < 1327703294 375516 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean how do you represent your points even? and do you use cylinders? < 1327703312 924394 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i need to read your thesis, it seems that there's some fundamental difference in how you do things. < 1327703313 86071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1327703317 621447 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean they don't have to be subshifts. < 1327703322 835893 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously not < 1327703325 404353 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1327703381 435986 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense they are sequences, since you can take the sequence of edges in the diagram corresponding to each point. < 1327703386 326881 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just have a self-homeomorphism on S^\Z or S^\N or w/e. i mean not that i have any idea what those actually look like ofc. < 1327703412 897950 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an infinite path in an infinite graph) < 1327703444 583803 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what are sequences in a sense? sorry for being dense. < 1327703467 330113 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the points in the systems described by BV diagrams < 1327703490 672196 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm okay < 1327703533 201423 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hm, there need be no common bound on the number of edges at all levels, so you don't necessarily get it into a finite alphabet < 1327703567 104867 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i think we proved at one point that if there _is_ a common point, the system must be uniquely ergodic < 1327703578 683361 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a common point? < 1327703581 42908 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or bound? < 1327703587 701770 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bound XD < 1327703623 750009 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there was this rather old open problem whether a CA on S^\Z can be uniquely ergodic without all points going to zero after a finite amount of steps < 1327703643 13074 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my colleague mister x proved that in his master's thesis < 1327703650 420766 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that there is) < 1327703667 989120 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we've played with those too < 1327703700 881489 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unique ergods that is. (if a system is uniquely ergodic, it has unique ergods, as well all know) < 1327703744 248660 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1327703838 819875 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an obvious definition of ergod < 1327703851 323594 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariant measure < 1327703856 106600 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks < 1327703880 708684 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that being ergodic would then make sense for a measure :D < 1327703902 117256 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe i won't use this terminology ever agian < 1327703903 709587 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*again < 1327703913 957161 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooooooo about these BV diagrams < 1327703926 830481 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you be all formal and shit < 1327703931 775023 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tell me all about them < 1327704042 801008 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1327704066 833824 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :since if there's a unique invariant measure then that has to be ergodic and vice versa because all measures are integrals over ergodic ones IN SOME SENSE I THINK < 1327704096 483686 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where vice versa means if there's a unique (invariant) ergodic measure then it's also the only measure. < 1327704104 261029 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, ergodic ones are extreme points in the convex set or something < 1327704110 610099 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well probability measure < 1327704111 570257 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1327704197 189791 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really recall the details since we mostly use this stuff as a tool in very simple ways. < 1327704240 192374 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :like herp derp by birkhoffs ergodic theorem thingie let's take a point where things occur with nice densities. < 1327704261 55541 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :although sometimes slightly less simple but rarely < 1327704543 338501 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is wondering if he's starting to get the flu < 1327704573 97416 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's apparently all the rage this week or so < 1327704612 367707 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1327704613 755038 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mscand.dk/article.php?id=153 the fuck are minimal interval exchange transformations? < 1327704648 666998 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :interval exchange transformation that happen to give minimal systems, i think < 1327704652 355466 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+s < 1327704667 300299 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Furthermore, these systems are orbit equivalent to Sturmian systems." you have worked with sturmian words????? < 1327704683 397413 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU HAVE DONE EVERYTHING THAT'S COOL EVER < 1327704684 275119 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't quite recall < 1327704687 564015 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1327704767 166033 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infinitesimal subgroup" :D < 1327704790 669820 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm was that connected to the k-theory stuff... < 1327704798 911332 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :please stop having been so awesome < 1327704824 129 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know i'm just skimming for cool terms. < 1327704850 289994 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it was the group elements that integrated to 0 wrt all invariant measures, wasn't it < 1327704863 745648 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimension group :DDDD i played with those like 3 weeks ago < 1327704892 125954 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the word. they are what gives the k-theory. < 1327704909 91057 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimension groups? < 1327704926 333920 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a dynamical system has only one dimension group afaik < 1327704936 483318 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1327704938 676936 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the K_0 group corresponding to Cantor minimal systems is a dimension group < 1327704957 421851 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have the same dimension group? < 1327704969 625405 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and divided out by the infinitesimals, it characterizes orbit equivalence < 1327705023 254516 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1327705027 474574 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dividing out by the infinitesimals ~ identifying any two group elements that have the same integral wrt all invariant measures) < 1327705031 86530 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you say group elements that integ... blah blah < 1327705052 79327 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean we have the dimension group as like fiber bundle thingies < 1327705093 849854 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean we usually define it with matrices for SFTs but for more general subshifts you can also talk about rays and beams and shit. < 1327705100 133675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well iirc you can simply do C(X,Z), the continuous functions from the space to the integers, and divide those out by the functions that integrate to 0 < 1327705140 911524 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if you want the full dimension group, you divide out by something less, generated by shifting functions by the homeomorphism < 1327705144 69885 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1327705184 684470 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that continuous functions thing kind of makes sense as a more abstract version of the rays and beams and shit thing. < 1327705219 742554 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm i'm sure there is always a connection to things but fiber bundles was never my thing. < 1327705236 280316 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i promised myself i'd actually learn some math this year, but every day i just start working on a new problem and lose interest in anything else. < 1327705241 572263 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1327705245 760082 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i say fiber bundles < 1327705279 321662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure i've read about fiber bundles a number of times, but they somehow don't stick. < 1327705286 654986 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mean what fibers mean in algebraic topology, and i don't mean that weird construction that may have a similar nam. only the terms ray and beam are used. < 1327705287 621323 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1327705330 616078 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just said fi < 1327705332 486831 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bers < 1327705341 439548 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they look like bundles of fibers. in my head. < 1327705429 234571 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1327705540 410963 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also my advisor and colleagues has since i left proved that these groups characterize orbit equivalence even when there is more than one (commuting) homeomorphism. < 1327705545 963127 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*have < 1327705615 327724 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you define orbit equivalence? < 1327705648 441993 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it's a homeomorphism from the space of one system to the space of another that maps orbits onto orbits < 1327705671 641933 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rightright < 1327705675 740350 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with no requirement that each orbit is mapped in sequence < 1327705691 874564 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so conjugacy but lazier < 1327705714 647283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1327705764 333729 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the def i guessed was that they are mapped in sequence. and then i was like wait this is conjugacy. < 1327705771 846706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this automatically transfers the invariant measures between the systems < 1327705787 56825 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, assuming countable orbits < 1327705819 854176 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what you mean by that < 1327705826 482445 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1327705856 857226 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, not having a homeomorphism whose Z-action gives the dynamics but having just R act on the space, or something like that? < 1327705865 273278 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, a countable group acting (e.g. Z for a single homeomorphism) < 1327705870 298899 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1327705961 554910 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course when i said "not Z-action but R-action", i meant the opposite, as you just said you want countable orbits. < 1327705961 911835 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it follows easily from this that the C(X,Z)/infinitesimals groups have to be isomorphic for an orbit equivalence to exist. the reverse however is very deep BV diagram magic. < 1327705979 161162 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*order isomorphic < 1327706030 980335 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds awesome < 1327706035 516062 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is all this in your thesis? < 1327706050 297734 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1327706223 604592 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well WHERE IS IT < 1327706241 99376 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS THERE SO MUCH COOL STUFF IN THE WORLD AND SO LITTLE SMART IN MY BRIAN < 1327706250 337725 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327706281 573520 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m sorry to hear about your brian. < 1327706288 334164 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1327706561 696008 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually a considerable part of this BV and dimension group stuff is in my master's thesis, which unlike my PhD thesis i've got easily available and just converted to pdf: http://oerjan.nvg.org/main.pdf < 1327706589 64830 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1327706596 326144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't worry about the norwegian on the first page :P) < 1327706705 454302 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :my advisor told me he keeps my master's around as a basic reference < 1327706729 128721 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :page 5 is priceless < 1327706746 229358 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1327706796 76062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, i may have a certain weakness for theorems with lists of equivalences :P < 1327706802 228066 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327706816 962158 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net PART :#esoteric < 1327706872 277578 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this looks nice, i'll see if i understand any of it tomorrow < 1327706887 542241 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nite < 1327706896 77272 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1327707773 851203 :derdon_!~derdon@pD9E1D731.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327708009 166331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection