←2012-01-27 2012-01-28 2012-01-29→ ↑2012 ↑all
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01:23:55 <pikhq> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--dWhUHntf3Q/TyMUQ5jYZVI/AAAAAAAAFWs/ww6aBSXRQJk/s1600/wtf.jpg Because everyone wants to play as crappy boxart Megaman.
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02:13:22 <nooga> where's oerjan
02:14:05 <pikhq> Sleeping.
02:15:19 <nooga> no way
02:15:57 <nooga> stupid timezones
02:16:06 <nooga> how come you're up at the mooment
02:16:16 <pikhq> It's 19:15.
02:16:30 <pikhq> The day's barely started.
02:16:31 <pikhq> :P
02:16:53 <nooga> it's 3:16 here
02:16:56 <fizzie> 04:16.
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02:17:04 <nooga> fizzie: +1 hour
02:17:25 <nooga> doesn't change the fact it's late
02:17:51 <fizzie> And I just woke up, having "just rested a bit" around localtime-23; should "wake up" at 7- or 8-ish instead.
02:18:11 <fizzie> This did not quite go as planned.
02:18:20 <nooga> i'm drinking since 2200
02:18:49 <nooga> my wife fell sleep and i'm still up
02:18:51 <nooga> ;f
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02:19:35 <nooga> trying to write graph oriented database in ANSI C
02:21:44 <fizzie> Heeeey, it's *Saturday* "tomorrow". That's not a wake-up-early day. Aw, I's so confused.
02:22:18 <nooga> graphs graphs graph
02:22:25 <nooga> I'd say grafy grafy grafy
02:23:53 <nooga> ew
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02:28:13 <nooga> klisz
02:28:37 <nooga> klisza means a photographic film in my language
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02:29:46 <nooga> klisz klisz
02:30:12 <Klisz> "your language"? do you refer to Polish, or are you a conlanger?
02:32:16 <nooga> Polish ofc
02:32:49 <nooga> or should I say... my native tongue
02:34:08 * Klisz adds klisza to Wiktionary, then, since what they currently only have 'film' as a translation of that
02:34:32 <nooga> Hungarian also have this sz, but this is pronounced like s in here
02:34:52 <Klisz> Oh yes, I forgot about Hungarian.
02:35:26 <nooga> sz sounds like sh in English
02:35:40 <nooga> Kleesh
02:36:30 <Klisz> indeed
02:36:45 <nooga> weird nick
02:38:03 <Klisz> My original name was "Darth Cliche"; I shortened that to "DCliche" when people kept making Star Wars-related jokes. I in turn changed to Klisz in response to people making jokes about the lack of an acute accent
02:38:04 <nooga> nooga on the other hand..
02:38:27 <nooga> I pronounce it like noga
02:38:36 <nooga> and it menas "a leg"
02:38:47 <nooga> means*
02:38:57 <nooga> but with longer o
02:39:12 <nooga> not the standard, english oo
02:39:27 <Klisz> Naming yourself 'leeeeeg' is rather weird too ;p
02:39:31 <nooga> leeeg
02:39:35 <nooga> that's right
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02:40:03 <nooga> i was pissed off because someone took my unregistered nick on IRC someday in 90's
02:40:19 <nooga> an the first thing i typed in was.. nooga
02:40:28 <nooga> and then it stayed like this
02:40:37 <nooga> quite
02:40:39 <nooga> uh
02:40:40 <nooga> random
02:43:25 <nooga> :F
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02:52:41 <nooga> i've lost connection
02:55:23 <nooga> lol
02:55:58 <nooga> Polish Radio programme 3 broadcasts The Dark Side Of The Moon at the moment
02:56:02 <nooga> whole album
02:59:05 <pikhq> Good album, at least.
03:04:07 <nooga> ahhh
03:05:04 <nooga> any colour you like right now
03:05:47 <nooga> quite unusual for a public radio to play whole album
03:06:25 <nooga> recently i've bee to the australian pink floyd show in Poznań, Poland
03:06:51 <nooga> and before that i was at the David Gilmour's concert in Gdańsk Shipyard
03:07:18 <nooga> they played 1.5 of PF and 1h of Gilmour's On An Island
03:07:33 <nooga> absolutely the best concert in my entire life
03:07:53 <nooga> been*
03:20:22 <pikhq> Neat.
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05:14:59 <oklopol> fizzie: what does localtime-23 mean?
05:16:17 <oklopol> hmmhmm
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05:57:53 <zzo38> What castles do you want to see?
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06:14:09 <oklopol> zzo38: none really
06:14:31 <zzo38> Then why did you put it in the topic message?
06:15:14 <Sgeo> Oh tell me why, do we build castles in the sky?
06:30:10 <oklopol> i didn't
06:30:34 <oklopol> i can't answer for the crazies, you have to wait for them to wake up.
06:47:03 <zzo38> Do you build vampires in the sky here, too?
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06:51:48 <zzo38> Strange cards for Magic: the Gathering which I have written:
06:52:34 <zzo38> | Gain 5 life if you have paid this spell's kicker cost. | Gain 5 life if you have played this spell for its madness cost. | Gain 5 life when you cycle this card. | (Note this card doesn't have kicker, madness, or cycle.)
06:53:34 <zzo38> | Gain 2 life for each spell on the stack which has split-second. | (When will this have an effect? Perhaps see later...)
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06:54:08 <zzo38> | Flash | Enchant spell | Enchanted spell has split-second. | (Possibly you can use this to force a block of spells to resolve at once, or to set up triggers, or something)
06:54:29 <zzo38> | All permanents with substance are 2/2 creatures in addition to their other card types. |
07:01:28 <zzo38> | Whenever a permanent becomes untapped, put it at the bottom of its owner's library. |
07:02:33 <zzo38> | This has +5/+5 if this is a token. |
07:11:03 <zzo38> | At the end of the game, rewind to the point that this spell resolved, and the loser takes X damage. (Doesn't work if a player concedes) |
07:12:11 <oklopol> what's madness?
07:12:15 <oklopol> or kicker
07:12:49 <zzo38> oklopol: Kicker is an extra cost that may be played when you play the spell card. If you do, then the spell is "kicked" by that instance of the kicker ability.
07:13:35 <zzo38> Madness means if that card is discarded from your hand, you may play the madness cost. If you do, it is exiled and then placed on the stack as if you have played that card.
07:13:50 <zzo38> (It doesn't give you the ability to discard that card, however.)
07:14:50 <oklopol> wait do you have deck and stack, you take cards from deck normally and throw dead things in the stack? or what are these things called
07:15:21 <oklopol> although i suppose you implied discards don't go in the stack
07:15:25 <zzo38> Stack is when spells and abilities wait to resolve, they are placed in a stack. When it is time for one to resolve, the last one is popped from the stack and resolves.
07:15:30 <oklopol> oh-
07:15:40 <oklopol> i mean oh.
07:15:44 <zzo38> (And then it is either put into play or in the discard pile, depending on the card)
07:16:34 <oklopol> okay i'm getting it.
07:30:12 <zzo38> I have made some cards that do strange things with the rules. Such as a card with the type "Instant Land" which remains in your hand when played, a card that skips the cleanup step, a variant of Wrath of God that doesn't actually destroy anything but works anyways because they become planeswalkers without counters, a card that phases out but when it tries to phase back in, it can't because it is an instant...
07:30:20 <zzo38> Some of these things no longer work with the new rules, however.
07:30:54 <zzo38> I have made various cards that only work in one version of the rules and have completely different effects in other versions.
07:32:21 <oklopol> did you do it by saying "in version x, this card ...; in version y, this card doesn't ...", or did you do something insanely clever
07:32:56 <zzo38> oklopol: No. I did something else; it wasn't even intended to work differently in different versions of the rules.
07:33:08 <oklopol> okay
07:33:55 <zzo38> Some of them invoke combinations of rules in ways which are not meant to be used in that way.
07:35:31 <zzo38> (The one that phases out and then fails to phase back in, will still phase back in in the new rules. In the old rules, which were current at the time I wrote that card, the card would in fact, fail to phase in after it has phased out.)
07:41:59 <zzo38> "Phasing. When this card enters play, it becomes an instant in addition to its other types."
07:44:42 <zzo38> I made one card that causes state-based effects to stop working temporarily.
07:47:27 <zzo38> I have made some cards that have an ability with "lose priority" as part of their cost or effect.
07:48:37 <zzo38> Can you understand how my card fails to phase back in in one version of the rules but succeeds in another version?
07:52:14 <zzo38> I don't know if there are slight changes in definition of mana abilities, or other rules that might affect that, that causes some of my effects to work differently in different versions of the rules
07:57:15 <zzo38> I have some cards that fail to do anything useful at all unless you have many other cards affecting certain rules and other things
08:04:11 <zzo38> I have a card named "Dignity" costing {B} with the effect "You lose the game." I can actually think of uses for such a card (and I don't mean copying it onto your opponent).
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08:28:27 <Sgeo> What uses?
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08:30:08 <Ngevd> Hello!
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10:03:05 <kallisti> why are rings called rings.
10:05:43 <_Slereah> "According to Harvey Cohn, Hilbert used the term for a specific ring that had the property of "circling directly back" to an element of itself"
10:08:12 <kallisti> oh, that's not very exciting...
10:08:56 * kallisti thinks number theory is something that would be interesting.
10:09:17 <kallisti> I'm particularly interested in the Riemann hypothesis.
10:12:57 <kallisti> uh what's a program I can use to convert an svg to a raster file.
10:24:16 -!- Frooxius has joined.
10:28:02 <ion> librsvg2-bin. Inkscape. ImageMagick. GraphicsMagick. Gimp.
10:28:24 <ion> Outsource it to be done manually by cheap labor.
10:32:27 <cheater> wasn't there a passage in the bible where the people were all supposed to kill themselves and formed a ring, and counted off and then each stabbed himself or something
10:32:54 <cheater> and one christian guy told the other christians to stand in specific places so that at some point all that is left are christians
10:33:05 <cheater> he used ring theory to save 'em
10:33:14 <cheater> isn't that where the name ring comes from
10:33:31 <fizzie> Misparsed that as "I'm particularly interested in the Riemann hypothesis. Uh, which is a problem I can use to convert an svg to a raster file." Sounded... dubious.
10:33:53 <Phantom__Hoover> cheater, fuck off.
10:34:10 <cheater> Phantom__Hoover: u
10:34:12 <Phantom__Hoover> * kallisti thinks number theory is something that would be interesting.
10:34:12 <Phantom__Hoover> <kallisti> I'm particularly interested in the Riemann hypothesis.
10:34:22 <Phantom__Hoover> The Riemann hypothesis isn't number theory.
10:34:27 <Phantom__Hoover> It's complex analysis IIRC.
10:34:40 <oklopol> isn't complex analysis part of number theory?
10:34:44 <oklopol> i should probably know
10:34:56 <Phantom__Hoover> Not number theory as it's commonly taken to be.
10:35:21 <Phantom__Hoover> i.e. the algebraic properties of N (or sometimes Z?)
10:35:34 <cheater> you totally forgot N_p
10:35:49 <cheater> complex analysis is usually taken in parallel with differential equations and before control theory
10:35:49 <Phantom__Hoover> cheater, fuck off.
10:35:52 <cheater> Phantom__Hoover: u
10:36:42 <cheater> oklopol: from what i gather there's some mention of holomorphic functions in the NT course, but i wasn't into it so i don't remember
10:36:55 <cheater> plus our NT guy was some wackjob from max planck institut
10:37:01 <fizzie> Riemann ζ has got that prime thing going for it, which might count.
10:37:42 <Phantom__Hoover> It has important ties to number theory, and IIRC you can reformulate it purely number theoretically, but the RH itself is complex analysis.
10:40:09 <oklopol> for instance an acquaintance of mine who says she studies analytic number theory actually mostly works with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maass_form which look very complex analysisy
10:42:19 <oklopol> complex analysis must be really useful for control theory
10:43:17 <cheater> this is not your dad's number theory, that guy's probably at least level 40
10:43:41 <cheater> what i mean is, he's probably researching some narrow, advanced field
10:43:59 <oklopol> by dad do you mean my acquaintance?
10:45:00 <oklopol> because my dads math skills are slightly below the average high school graduate.
10:45:07 <oklopol> ...'s
10:45:27 <cheater> "not your dad's" is a jocular way of saying "advanced"
10:45:42 <cheater> as in, "those aren't your dad's microscopes"
10:46:37 <oklopol> i guessed that
10:46:44 <cheater> it comes from the fact that kids, while growing up, would often get tools that are pass-me-downs from their father's or grandfather's time at the same age, usually much less precise instruments than are available at the time
10:47:01 <cheater> yeah
10:47:09 <cheater> do you want to study number theory?
10:47:40 <oklopol> i think i'm going in a different direction.
10:47:49 <cheater> what direction?
10:48:05 <oklopol> dynamical systems, symbolic dynamics, cellular automata
10:48:12 <oklopol> mostly the middle one
10:49:17 <cheater> is that ever used for computer graphics
10:49:47 <oklopol> :D
10:49:59 <oklopol> by computer scientists, perhaps
10:51:56 <oklopol> we just create dynamical systems by taking a subshift and running a CA on it and look at dynamics or other things
10:52:11 <kallisti> I like how I caused a huge hair-splitting conversation.
10:53:57 <cheater> i just looked up "fascism" to check the word origin, and i got a context ad for an Italian language course
10:54:24 <cheater> Learn Italian in Italy
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10:59:32 <mroman> Spam is worse these days :(
11:00:13 <cheater> oklopol: i saw an introduction to symbolic dynamics which says "Imagine a point following some trajectory in a space. Partition the space into finitely many pieces, each labeled by a different symbol. We obtain a symbolic trajectory by writing down the sequence of symbols corresponding to the successive partition elements visited by the point in its orbit."
11:00:27 <oklopol> yeah that's a motivation
11:00:27 <cheater> oklopol: this very much looks like sampling
11:00:34 <oklopol> ...
11:00:41 <oklopol> wellll perhaps
11:01:33 <cheater> but like, do you only consider this "sampling" at an "infinite rate" (i.e. every time the partition changes you get a new symbol) or do you also consider situations where this rate is limited?
11:01:53 <oklopol> but anyway i haven't even applied symbolic dynamics to dynamical systems in general, i just solve fun problems of my own creation (and occasionally open ones when i find an interesting one).
11:01:57 <oklopol> err
11:02:03 <oklopol> so what we actually do is
11:02:23 <oklopol> we take a dynamical system, so a compact metric (or just hausdorff) space
11:02:44 <oklopol> and we take a Z-action (or sometimes an N-action) on it
11:03:23 <oklopol> now what we do is we can put a topological partition on the space
11:03:27 <cheater> i see Morse and Shannon being mentioned in this paper
11:03:40 <cheater> ok, go on
11:03:51 <oklopol> this means that we have a finite disjoint union of open sets such that their union is dense
11:05:47 <oklopol> now, for "almost every" point, there's a unique sequence of open sets which it goes through, that is, for all almost all x in your dynamical system, there's a sequence (s_i)_i such that T^i(x) is in U_i for all i
11:06:21 <oklopol> here, almost all obviously means residual
11:06:39 <cheater> define residual
11:06:54 <cheater> do you mean measure 0?
11:06:55 <oklopol> a countable union of complements of open dense sets
11:06:56 <oklopol> no
11:07:08 <oklopol> that's why it was obvious
11:07:20 <oklopol> it exactly coincided with the definition
11:07:33 <cheater> define residual
11:08:01 <oklopol> a residual set is a set A that you can represent as a a countable union of complements of open dense sets?
11:08:04 <oklopol> *-a
11:08:45 <cheater> so those "almost all x" define a residual set?
11:08:52 <oklopol> ah!
11:09:03 <oklopol> yeah almost all obviously means complement of residual :D
11:09:11 <oklopol> i now understand your confusion.
11:09:37 <oklopol> residual sets are "small"
11:09:45 <oklopol> in topology
11:09:58 <cheater> i realize that, i was just wondering what you're being so smug about
11:10:02 <cheater> because it made no sense
11:10:13 <oklopol> was i being smug?
11:10:16 <cheater> so anyways what do you need this Z-action for?
11:10:31 <oklopol> oh the obviously. yeah i just meant it was exactly the definition
11:10:56 <cheater> is it to define the topology?
11:11:30 <oklopol> no, it's to get a dynamical system, topological spaces are a bit boring without an action.
11:11:54 <cheater> i wouldn't know
11:12:12 <oklopol> well the point is we just start with a space and a Z-action
11:12:16 <oklopol> we don't ask why
11:12:40 <cheater> i did a lot of interesting stuff in topology in university without the notion of an action, mostly weird shit related to metric spaces
11:13:03 <oklopol> well i personally just love general topology, but i've been told soooo many times that no one does that anymore so i shouldn't either
11:13:18 <cheater> of course they do
11:13:30 <cheater> gauge integrals are hot shit right now
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11:13:59 <oklopol> well of course they do, and in fact symbolic dynamics is way less known than general topology. in fact no one knows what it is like ever.
11:14:08 <cheater> you've obviously been tricked into doing whatever the person wanted you to do instead of marvellous general topology
11:14:15 <cheater> ^_^
11:14:41 <oklopol> if the person wanted me to do whatever i like in a different field from his with a different supervisor, then he has been successful
11:14:59 <cheater> maybe he was corrupt
11:15:20 <cheater> for advising you this way, he received better chalk for his lab
11:15:23 <oklopol> gauge integrals do not at all sound like general topology
11:15:27 <cheater> i've seen that happen
11:15:28 <oklopol> hmm
11:15:32 <oklopol> that sounds likely
11:15:38 <cheater> AHA!
11:16:08 <oklopol> anyhow i wasn't finished
11:16:28 <cheater> oh there's more
11:16:29 <cheater> ok
11:16:37 <oklopol> so now for many many x (and in particular at least one...) we get some sequence of symbols, indexed by whatever our action was by
11:16:38 <cheater> so what would such a Z-action look like
11:16:42 <oklopol> so say S^\Z
11:16:58 <cheater> what's \Z?
11:16:59 <oklopol> well for instance multiplication by 2 in [0, 1)
11:17:04 <oklopol> sorry that's integers
11:17:13 <cheater> oh
11:17:15 <cheater> ok
11:17:24 <oklopol> my latex notation has gotten stuck
11:17:33 <cheater> not good enough
11:17:42 <oklopol> i used to use \mathbb{Z}
11:17:44 <cheater> wait, so is this Z-action badly defined?
11:17:57 <cheater> as in, 0.5 * 2 = 1 which is not in the integral
11:18:00 <cheater> or is it modulo 1?
11:18:02 <oklopol> no, it's completely defined in the space X of the dynamical system
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11:18:23 <cheater> let's say our space is S^1
11:18:26 <oklopol> yeah sure modulo 1. i was gonna say torus at first but then i didn't know what you understand by that.
11:18:27 <oklopol> yeah
11:18:32 <cheater> and we define our action to be S^ZZ
11:18:46 <cheater> which is, btw, how you write integers if you can't be fucked :D
11:18:46 <oklopol> wellllll
11:19:08 <cheater> then our action just makes the points map to the antipode, right?
11:19:13 <cheater> or, hm
11:19:16 <cheater> no, it doesn't
11:19:22 <cheater> right ok
11:19:29 <cheater> anyways, i got the hang of it and have a mental picture
11:19:30 <kallisti> @hoogle Product
11:19:30 <lambdabot> Prelude product :: Num a => [a] -> a
11:19:30 <lambdabot> Data.List product :: Num a => [a] -> a
11:19:30 <lambdabot> Data.Monoid Product :: a -> Product a
11:19:31 <oklopol> the action can't really be S^ZZ, the action is a function from X to X. say multiplication by 2
11:19:40 <kallisti> > 2 :: Product 2
11:19:40 <lambdabot> Only unit numeric type pattern is valid
11:19:50 <kallisti> oh
11:19:52 <kallisti> > 2 :: Product Int
11:19:53 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Monoid.Product GHC.Types.Int))
11:19:53 <lambdabot> arisin...
11:19:59 <cheater> yes, the "multiplication by 2" happens on the parametrization of S to [0, 1) obviously
11:20:27 <cheater> you could call the action "multiplication of complex argument by 2" or something
11:20:39 <kallisti> it would be nice if Sum and Product had Num instances, if only for the integer overloading.
11:20:46 <cheater> that too is a Z-action, right?
11:20:58 <oklopol> well on what space?
11:21:04 <oklopol> see we usually want a compact one
11:21:16 <cheater> "multiplication of complex argument by 2" on S^2
11:21:19 <cheater> er
11:21:21 <kallisti> you know who's a boss?
11:21:21 <cheater> on S^1
11:21:27 <kallisti> Grigori Perelman.
11:21:31 <cheater> boring
11:21:43 <cheater> oklopol: that's valid, right?
11:22:05 <oklopol> well multiplication by 2, doesn't that just multiply the length by 2 and take it outside S^1?
11:22:09 <oklopol> or what do you mean by that
11:22:22 <cheater> you missed the "of the argument"
11:22:27 <cheater> Arg(z)
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11:23:19 <cheater> hmm maybe it looked like "argument of a function" but it meant "argument of the number" :D
11:23:29 <oklopol> cheater: argh, i just realized residual is a countable intersection of dense open sets. you should always take the concept and its negation and guess which makes more sense because i just usually think of them as the same concept.
11:24:01 <oklopol> yeah as you may be able to tell, i'm not always that great with terminology.
11:24:01 <cheater> they're isomorphic modulo sign of the truth function
11:24:08 <oklopol> yes!
11:24:09 <oklopol> :D
11:24:27 <oklopol> but ummmmmmmmmmmm
11:24:31 <cheater> so do you understand this function i have defined
11:24:42 <oklopol> if argument is angle then yes
11:25:25 <oklopol> and it's just multiplying by a different number essentially
11:25:32 <kallisti> in cologic, monads are just endofunctors of categories in the monoid.
11:25:52 <kallisti> (also perhaps Soviet Russia)
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11:26:31 <cheater> no in fact it's not multiplying by a different number, it's multiplying by *the same* number
11:26:39 <oklopol> cheater: in any case we have a partially defined itinerary function from X to S^ZZ. the image of this gives us a so-called subshift (what i research) in S^ZZ, that is, a closed and shift-invariant subset.
11:27:21 <cheater> let's say my X is this S^1 as i have defined
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11:27:33 <cheater> and the action is this multiplication of the angle
11:27:42 <cheater> what does the function from X to S^ZZ look like?
11:27:59 <oklopol> well we have to choose a partition
11:28:11 <cheater> let's say the partition is something like..
11:28:20 <kallisti> your mom claims to be exclusive or, but I know she's really biconditional.
11:28:21 <kallisti> ZING
11:28:26 <kallisti> I am on a role
11:28:27 <cheater> let's say it's given by the 10th roots of unity
11:28:34 <kallisti> so, I'm going to go to sleep, in order to celebrate.
11:28:38 <oklopol> kallisti: nite
11:28:45 <kallisti> ^celebrate
11:28:46 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
11:28:46 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
11:28:46 <myndzi> /< |\ /| | >\ /´\ >\ | |\ /'\ /´\
11:28:46 <myndzi> (_|¯'¯|_) /'\
11:28:46 <myndzi> (_| |_)
11:29:01 <oklopol> cheater: can we use 2nd roots of unity :D
11:29:12 <cheater> no but we can use 4th
11:29:18 <cheater> 1, -1, i, -i
11:29:22 <oklopol> okay
11:29:23 <oklopol> thanks
11:29:28 <cheater> but only this once
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11:30:20 <oklopol> so, what the map to S^ZZ would do (S = {1, -1, i, -i}, say, and symbol a means the interval starting after a)
11:31:09 <oklopol> is take the two directional orbit, and give the sequence of which quarters your point is
11:31:17 <oklopol> actually not sure this particular one can be 2-directional
11:31:23 <cheater> oh so this S was not short for "sphere"?
11:31:33 <cheater> S is the set of indices of partitions yes?
11:31:33 <oklopol> heh no xD
11:31:40 <oklopol> yes
11:32:02 <oklopol> we always call it S because the more standard \Sigma is annoying to type
11:32:39 <oklopol> so.
11:33:12 <cheater> it would've been useful had you brought this up that it's normally \Sigma
11:33:26 <oklopol> if you take the real 0.000001 in [0, 1) (so just above 1 along complex unit ball)
11:33:35 <cheater> because \Sigma is normally used for finite or countable sets
11:33:47 <oklopol> well i did mention that the partition is always finite.
11:33:49 <cheater> yes i take the real
11:33:52 <cheater> what's next
11:34:03 <cheater> it's in the "1" partition right?
11:34:04 <oklopol> actually just take 0.0^n1 for a large n
11:34:46 <oklopol> yes, the itinerary should look something like .11111111... for some time ...111i and then maybe -i directly dunno
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11:34:50 <oklopol> erm
11:34:53 <oklopol> what the fuck
11:35:03 <oklopol> yeah i guess that was your action
11:35:31 <oklopol> in terms of RR/ZZ, what was your action again?
11:35:36 <cheater> is this somehow related to p-adic numbers
11:35:38 <oklopol> i mean i didn't actually get it, i just wanted to keep talking
11:35:49 <cheater> you *never* say RR
11:35:58 <cheater> you do |R ! :D
11:36:29 <oklopol> well there are interesting connections but sofar this is just a way to get from topological dynamical systems to symbolic ones.
11:36:30 <cheater> right, um, the action was you take a point on the unit circle on the complex plane
11:36:36 <cheater> you multiply its angle by 2
11:36:37 <oklopol> mmhmm
11:36:41 <cheater> and that's your action
11:37:03 <oklopol> okay so it's just multiplication by 2
11:37:10 <oklopol> on RR/ZZ
11:37:19 <oklopol> which i prefer
11:37:20 <cheater> yes
11:38:04 <oklopol> yeah so in that case, you would get some 1's and then a -1, then i guess -i and then no one knows.
11:38:19 <cheater> no we'd get some 1's
11:38:21 <cheater> and um
11:38:26 <cheater> then probably an I
11:38:28 <oklopol> i think the map to S^NN is injective here
11:38:36 <cheater> and then probably a -i
11:38:42 <oklopol> where defined
11:38:57 <cheater> why are we using the naturals now
11:39:04 <oklopol> yeaaah when i said -1 i meant i.
11:39:04 <cheater> and not whole numbers
11:39:15 <oklopol> well i didn't know if this was reversible because i didn't understand your action
11:39:22 <oklopol> but yeah it's reversible
11:39:44 <oklopol> (the reverse is *drumroll* division by 2)
11:39:48 <oklopol> erm
11:39:52 <oklopol> i'm a retard :D
11:40:02 <cheater> is it really reversible
11:40:05 <cheater> i don't think it is
11:40:07 <oklopol> of course not
11:40:29 <cheater> so if it's not reversible what happens?
11:40:45 <oklopol> well then you usually just take an NN action.
11:40:48 <cheater> why is it important whether it is or is not reversible?
11:40:50 <cheater> ok
11:40:57 <cheater> so let's first use a reversible one
11:41:07 <cheater> let's say "adding 0.1 in R/ZZ"
11:41:20 <oklopol> yeah, that's better
11:41:32 <oklopol> although, that's kind of a trivial dynamical system
11:41:40 <oklopol> because 0.1 is rational
11:41:43 <cheater> yes
11:41:47 <cheater> ok let's do 0.pi
11:41:51 <oklopol> :P yeah
11:42:01 <cheater> which is just pi/10
11:42:48 <oklopol> then if you say partition at the middle, you get some crazy subset of S^ZZ, and the original system can be to some extent studied by using the subset of S^ZZ. i don't really know how :D.
11:42:49 <cheater> and we've got our intervals defined at 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75
11:43:08 <cheater> which correspond to 1, i, -1, -i
11:43:16 <oklopol> i don't really know any properties of pi that would let me investigate this further than "stuff happens!".
11:43:25 <cheater> ok
11:43:27 <cheater> so wait
11:43:41 <cheater> if our Z action is this "add pi/10"
11:43:53 <oklopol> yeah
11:43:54 <cheater> what does the function from X to S^ZZ look like
11:43:58 <cheater> it's just a recording
11:44:06 <cheater> of what a specific point does?
11:44:16 <cheater> like a .... sampled signal?
11:44:31 <oklopol> that's why multiplying by 2 is nice i guess, you get exactly the binary representation
11:44:41 <oklopol> we got sidetracked and i forgot i was doing that
11:44:41 <cheater> do you?
11:44:49 <cheater> that's really cool
11:45:16 <oklopol> well multiplying by 1 is shifting by 1
11:45:19 <oklopol> so umm
11:45:26 <cheater> what
11:45:32 <cheater> that made no sense
11:45:34 <oklopol> shifting the binary representation
11:45:39 <oklopol> argh
11:45:39 <oklopol> 2
11:45:41 <oklopol> afjaiowjfoiawejfoiwj
11:45:42 <oklopol> oiwaejfoiawejfoiaweoj
11:45:43 <oklopol> fuckfuckfuck
11:45:47 <oklopol> multiplying by 2
11:45:57 <cheater> are you
11:45:58 <cheater> sure?
11:46:02 <oklopol> :D
11:46:05 <oklopol> now i'm pretty sure.
11:46:17 <oklopol> 1.0011101 * 2 = 10.011101
11:46:20 <cheater> you can still ask the audience or call a friend
11:46:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:46:29 <oklopol> i called a friend
11:46:32 <oklopol> aaaaanywho
11:46:35 <cheater> what did he say
11:46:41 <cheater> "narf"
11:46:41 <oklopol> he's oerjan, nothing yet.
11:46:45 <cheater> oh
11:46:55 <cheater> oerjan: don't tell him anything!
11:46:59 <oklopol> anyhow so now the first bit of the number can be detected by the partition
11:47:22 <oerjan> wut
11:47:23 <oklopol> since if it starts with 1, then it's in the top half (degenerate points like 0.011111111... aren't a problem since those don't fall in either partition element)
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11:48:04 <cheater> that's cool
11:48:09 <oklopol> so our open sets are (0,0.5) and (0.5,1)
11:48:12 <cheater> best ever way to reason about fractions
11:48:19 <cheater> does it work for decimal fractions too?
11:48:22 <oklopol> sure
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11:49:09 <oklopol> but all of this stuff gets way more interesting when you have more dimensions and know stuff about matrices. i can't really say much about that without a reference.
11:49:11 <cheater> so i can take a number in [0, 1), define some partitions, keep multiplying that number by 10, and i get the decimal representation?
11:49:23 <cheater> hmm i can see how that works
11:49:37 <oklopol> yeah, the partition is not (0, 0.1) etc
11:49:44 <cheater> is not?
11:49:47 <cheater> what is it then?
11:49:51 <oklopol> asdflkasfjklsdjalf
11:49:53 <oklopol> NOW
11:49:53 <oklopol> NOW
11:49:54 <oklopol> NOW
11:49:55 <oklopol> NOW
11:50:03 <cheater> wow
11:50:06 <oklopol> i'm going to stop living for now okay
11:50:12 <cheater> k np
11:50:19 <oklopol> this is not working today
11:50:28 <cheater> now?
11:50:31 <cheater> this is now working today?
11:50:35 <oklopol> going to the shoppe, buying a thing, and enjoying it.
11:50:43 <cheater> njoy
11:50:43 <oklopol> :(
11:50:45 <oklopol> you are mean
11:50:46 <cheater> :(
11:50:48 <oklopol> so mean
11:50:52 <cheater> average?
11:50:54 <oklopol> yeah
11:50:57 <oklopol> i suppose
11:51:09 <oerjan> <fizzie> And I just woke up, having "just rested a bit" around localtime-23; should "wake up" at 7- or 8-ish instead. <-- wait, you are supposed to be the one person in the channel with a normal sleeping schedule...
11:51:13 <cheater> haha
11:51:28 <oklopol> yeah i wondered about that oo
11:51:28 <cheater> oklopol: thx for letting me know about those symbolic thingies
11:51:31 <cheater> it's really cute
11:51:33 <fizzie> oerjan: I have, it was just a mishap.
11:51:55 <oklopol> cheater: maybe someday i'll talk to you about the actual symbolic thingies themselves which i actually know something about, this is just their motivation
11:52:07 <cheater> ok
11:52:09 <cheater> so tell me
11:52:17 <cheater> what are the actual symbolic thingies themselves?
11:52:20 <oklopol> it's like formal language theory ON CRACK
11:52:32 <cheater> why do you need multiple dimensions
11:52:36 <oklopol> subshifts, that is, closed shift-invariant subsets of S^ZZ
11:52:44 <cheater> what is a shift
11:52:54 <oklopol> multiple dimensions are nice so that linear maps give more interesting dynamics
11:53:07 <oklopol> shift means you take the point and shift the indices to the right
11:53:09 <oklopol> so
11:53:20 <oklopol> shift(x)_i = x_{i+1}
11:53:36 <cheater> don't you mean shift(x_i) ?
11:53:44 <oklopol> no x_i is a symbol
11:54:01 <oklopol> you can't shift a symbol, you shift a "point", that is, an element of S^ZZ
11:54:05 <cheater> what does shift(x)_i mean?
11:54:13 <oklopol> the ith coordinate of the shift of x
11:54:19 <oklopol> x is a point
11:54:25 <cheater> hmmm
11:54:29 <oklopol> it just means shifting the whole point to the left
11:54:37 <cheater> so
11:54:38 <oklopol> when you think of it as an infinite sequence
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11:54:48 <cheater> [0, 1, 2] -> [2, 0, 1] ?
11:55:21 <oklopol> well no rotation since these are infinite. and i'm not sure you shifted in the right direction.
11:55:22 <oklopol> but so
11:55:42 <cheater> ah yes ok right
11:55:54 <oklopol> the point ...01001011.0111... where . denotes where index 0 is, would shift to ...010010110.111...
11:56:05 <cheater> so 12345... -> 2345...
11:56:17 <cheater> ohh right
11:56:17 <oklopol> yeah. for a one-directional sequence
11:56:23 <oklopol> i always do two-directional
11:56:28 <oklopol> because that's cooler
11:56:30 <cheater> because those have indices in Z?
11:56:36 <oklopol> yeah
11:56:46 <oklopol> so i feel like zorro
11:56:53 <oklopol> when i index
11:57:01 <cheater> ok sooooo
11:57:21 <oklopol> that was the shift part, do you know what shift-invariant means?
11:57:25 <oklopol> i mean can you guess
11:57:40 <cheater> with an S^ZZ which is {0, 1} we have only a few subshifts right?
11:58:03 <oklopol> S is {0, 1}. S^ZZ is every sequence of 0's and 1's.
11:58:04 <cheater> ...0.0... and ...1.1... ?
11:58:05 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:58:15 <cheater> ah right yes
11:58:18 <oklopol> also 0101011101011110101000010101011 etc
11:58:27 <oklopol> that's called the full shift
11:58:29 <cheater> why is that a subshift?
11:58:37 <oklopol> well do you see why it's shift-invariant
11:58:41 <cheater> no
11:58:49 <oklopol> if you shift a point, it's still a point
11:59:01 <oklopol> shift-invariant means the _set_ of points is mapped to itself
11:59:09 <oklopol> the points themselves aren't
11:59:31 <cheater> is the whole of S^ZZ shift-invariant
11:59:48 <oklopol> that's what confused you i suppose. if the points are actually fixed points of the shift, then they are exactly ...0.0... and ...1.1... as you said
11:59:51 <oklopol> yes
12:00:14 <cheater> does it have proper subsets other than the trivial {,,,0,,,, and ...1...} which are shift-invariant?
12:00:16 <oklopol> because if you shift a point, it's some other point over the same alphabet S, and every point over S is in S^ZZ
12:00:32 <oklopol> yes. it even has closed shift-invariant subsets
12:00:35 <oklopol> a fuckload of them.
12:00:47 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
12:00:47 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
12:00:52 <oklopol> for instance, the set of points containing at most one symbol 1
12:01:00 * oerjan almost does that from memory now
12:01:01 <oklopol> that's closed and shift invariant
12:01:01 <cheater> cool
12:01:10 <cheater> why "at most"?
12:01:18 <cheater> oh i see
12:01:18 <cheater> ok
12:01:18 <oklopol> cheater: if we say exactly one, it's not closed
12:01:26 <cheater> why is it not closed?
12:01:29 <oklopol> because you can shift the one to infinity, so to speak.
12:01:34 <cheater> can you?
12:01:38 <oerjan> (morse-thue sequence; gives a subshift which is minimal)
12:01:51 <oklopol> yeah, see the topology here is given by the following metric
12:01:54 <cheater> ah closed as in topologically closed
12:02:01 <cheater> not closed as in closed under the function
12:02:08 <oklopol> ah yea
12:02:09 <oklopol> h
12:02:32 <oklopol> is it sufficient to say S has the discrete topology and S^ZZ the product topology?
12:02:40 <oklopol> that's what we're using
12:02:43 <cheater> no
12:02:49 <cheater> i don't know what the product topology is
12:02:50 <oklopol> okay then i'll give the metric
12:02:59 <oklopol> that's easier to work with maybe
12:03:07 <cheater> OK!!!!
12:03:35 <oklopol> d(x, y) = 2^{-n} where n is the smallest absolute value of an index i such that x_i != y_i
12:03:52 <oklopol> so if you differ at the origin (at coordinate 0), then your distance is 1
12:04:10 <oklopol> for instance
12:04:16 <oklopol> erm
12:04:21 <oklopol> did i do that right...
12:04:46 <oklopol> yeah i think i did
12:04:51 <cheater> or did you mean sum
12:04:55 <oklopol> no
12:05:02 <cheater> so if i'm doing a shift the numbers might keep on jumping around wildly right?
12:05:29 <oklopol> you can also use d(x, y) = 1/{i + 1} where i is the smallest absolute value of a difference
12:05:34 <oklopol> cheater: yes!
12:05:46 <oklopol> i mean the distances
12:05:52 <cheater> that could be used to create a new sequence
12:05:56 <cheater> is that sequence somehow related
12:06:24 <cheater> can you like
12:07:11 <oklopol> so you mean
12:07:16 <cheater> let's say you have a sequence s
12:07:20 <oklopol> okay
12:07:39 <cheater> and then you have a sequence of sequences {shift^k(s)}
12:07:51 <oklopol> oh i thought two would be enough
12:08:10 <cheater> and then you define a sequence s' = {d(shift^k(s), shift^(k+1)(s)}
12:08:23 <cheater> can you construct s knowing s'?
12:08:44 <oklopol> well no
12:08:50 <cheater> why
12:08:50 <oklopol> erm
12:09:05 <cheater> well 000 and 111 have the same s'
12:09:08 <oklopol> in the binary case, you may be able.
12:09:11 <oerjan> no, you cannot distinguish s from (1-s_i)_i
12:09:14 <oklopol> yeah
12:09:14 <oerjan> i think
12:09:18 <cheater> but other than that
12:09:25 <cheater> are there interesting cases when you can?
12:09:28 <oklopol> but it may be just symbol permutations
12:10:42 <oerjan> hm s' tells you exactly the coordinates where s and shift(s) differe, i think
12:10:43 <oklopol> yeah it's just symbol permutations
12:10:43 <oerjan> *-e
12:10:44 <oklopol> yeah
12:11:02 <oerjan> so indeed you can deduce everything other than total flipping
12:11:04 <oklopol> it seems you're still two seconds better at math
12:11:11 <oerjan> XD
12:11:35 <oklopol> oh right, i have to go to the shop
12:12:08 <cheater> i think you could call ' the differential
12:12:09 <cheater> since like
12:12:14 <cheater> or the derivative
12:12:20 <cheater> since it removes the unnecessary information
12:12:43 <cheater> much like the derivative of a real function removes unnecessary information about the DC component
12:12:58 <cheater> what does s'' tell you about s?
12:13:01 <oklopol> well the problem is the alphabet is not finite. unless you just take the information whether the bit changes.
12:13:26 <cheater> i thought the alphabet was just {0, 1}
12:13:29 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't think it's just symbol permutations if it's more than binary
12:13:37 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah i meant binary
12:13:38 <cheater> and S^ZZ is all sequences in that alphabet
12:13:40 <oerjan> since it only tells if neighbors are equal or not
12:13:42 <oklopol> no idea what happens otherwise
12:13:45 <oklopol> oh right
12:13:51 <oklopol> hmm
12:13:55 <cheater> let's talk about binary first though
12:13:59 <cheater> what does s'' symbolize?
12:14:00 <oklopol> yeah then that will probably not characterize it
12:14:32 <oerjan> cheater: s' is not the same kind of sequence as s, though - the elements of s' are reals, not symbols
12:14:34 <oklopol> well i think has something to do with xor in the binary case
12:14:48 <oklopol> oerjan: "<oklopol> well the problem is the alphabet is not finite. unless you just take the information whether the bit changes."
12:14:57 <oklopol> i guess you were more specific
12:14:58 <oerjan> i suppose that's not really a problem for your definition
12:15:06 <oklopol> ohhh
12:15:10 <oklopol> you mean for s''
12:15:18 <oerjan> oklopol: being two seconds ahead is so much easier when i don't read what you write :P
12:15:20 <oklopol> yeah it shouldn't be a problem
12:15:59 <oklopol> cheater: so wait are you a mathematician
12:18:32 <cheater> sorry i was right in the middle of a triceps set
12:18:36 <cheater> no i just lift things
12:19:20 <oklopol> until you can lift even bigger things?
12:19:26 <cheater> yes
12:19:32 <cheater> i have a full set of weights
12:19:43 <oerjan> i hear the traditional method is to get a calf.
12:19:56 <cheater> oerjan: oh sorry i forgot to add you need to decimate the result again
12:20:01 <cheater> i.e. re-sample it
12:20:10 <cheater> or in other words, truncate back to binary
12:20:23 <cheater> by applying the transform from X to S
12:20:45 <oerjan> i didn't hear about any X.
12:20:54 <cheater> ok sorry
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12:21:31 <cheater> we have an X which is [0, 1) and we have a Z-action on it
12:21:42 <cheater> we define two subsets, the upper and lower half
12:22:02 <oerjan> i don't think it makes sense to say s' is in X.
12:22:09 <cheater> we take a point x0 in X which we then keep applying this Z-action to
12:22:25 <cheater> this way we get s = {x_k, k \in ZZ}
12:22:26 <cheater> right?
12:22:27 <oerjan> although you _could_ interpret 1/2^n as n 0's followed by a 1, or something.
12:22:39 <cheater> are you following me so far?
12:22:45 <cheater> never mind your interpretations
12:23:21 <cheater> now let's say our partition is different
12:23:29 <oerjan> yes. however the problem here is that if you apply that transformation to each element of s', you get a sequence of sequences, not a single one
12:23:42 <cheater> no i don't
12:23:42 <oerjan> so you cannot reapply ' to that
12:23:47 <cheater> that's just your interpretation, i never said that
12:24:03 <cheater> ok now let's say we have the sierpinski set on [0, 1]
12:24:03 <oerjan> ...
12:25:02 <oerjan> i'm sorry but i detect troll mode, and so i won't participate any longer.
12:25:11 <cheater> i think you're full of shit
12:25:28 <cheater> you don't follow and therefore you start hating
12:25:36 <cheater> well done
12:25:49 <cheater> pat yourself on the back
12:26:08 <oerjan> fine, it's possible, but i still suggest not angering me.
12:27:07 <cheater> well, i hope you realize that displays of e-machoism are very basic intellectually
12:27:38 <cheater> anyways, if you're not interested i'll go do something better with my time
12:27:40 <cheater> bbl
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12:51:49 <oklopol> my boobs are made for walking
12:53:02 <oerjan> how nice
12:53:47 <olsner> my boobs are made for doing nothing
12:53:58 <ion> I lost my boobs
12:54:10 <olsner> ion :(
12:54:16 <oklopol> ion: are you a breast cancer survivor?
12:54:36 <ion> Nah, they just went away as a side effect of losing weight.
12:55:09 <ion> I don’t miss them. I’ve never considered myself a huge fan of moobs.
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12:56:02 <oerjan> wait, you mean they can be made to go away again?
12:56:06 <oerjan> there is still hope!
12:56:27 <oerjan> a small one, given my general hate of physical exercise, but still
12:57:03 <oerjan> (also general hate of being hungry)
12:57:58 <olsner> I don't think either of exercise or being hungry is necessary
12:59:09 <ion> I did no physical exercise and didn’t reduce the amount i eat (until that happened naturally as a consequence of losing weight). I didn’t even try to lose weight (although it was a welcome surprise). I just happened to find out about capsaicin’s effect on weight by it happening to me.
12:59:24 <olsner> WOW! knowledge from wikipedia: 318 is the natural number following 317 and preceding 319.
12:59:34 <ion> You don’t say!
12:59:58 <olsner> no, I don't, wikipedia do
13:00:02 <olsner> does
13:00:45 <ion> > [succ 317, pred 319]
13:00:46 <lambdabot> [318,318]
13:00:49 <ion> lambdabot seems to agree.
13:00:59 <olsner> she does know stuff, that lambdabot
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13:15:05 <mroman> Eating chili helps lose weight? Interesting.
13:15:44 <oklopol> now oerjan just has to choose between his hate of exercise, hate of hunger and hate of chili
13:19:16 <mroman> Luckily I don't have to lose weight.
13:19:52 <oklopol> not your *own* weight
13:22:04 <mroman> What's that supposed to mean?
13:22:45 <oklopol> are you asking me?
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13:23:18 <mroman> Yes ;)
13:23:29 <oklopol> i don't know, it sounded like the thing to say.
13:25:37 <ion> http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/59930/title/Science_%2B_the_Public__Understanding_why_hot_peppers_are_slimming
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13:27:12 <ion> I was puzzled for a while when my weight started dropping, until i realized it coincided with the time i had gotten used to eating ~1M SHU stuff daily. Googling revealed stuff like that.
13:27:41 <ion> http://johan.kiviniemi.name/health/weight.png
13:28:01 <oklopol> you're finnish?
13:28:36 <ion> yeah
13:28:50 <oklopol> i weight 88 or something and i don't have boobs
13:29:14 <ion> Different height, different body structure, different muscle/fat ratio, …
13:29:35 <oklopol> how tall are you? you don't have the chart on capsaicin's effect on your height
13:29:42 <oklopol> i assume that went don't linearly
13:29:45 <oklopol> with weight
13:30:02 <mroman> 88kg?
13:30:06 <oklopol> *down
13:30:08 <mroman> Or some weird american unit? ;)
13:30:15 <oklopol> kg obviously
13:30:17 <oklopol> i'm finnish too
13:30:51 <ion> 1.76 m. (TBH, the moobs were quite insignificant, but not inexistent.)
13:30:51 <oklopol> what's SHU stuff
13:30:57 <ion> Scoville heat unit
13:31:00 <oklopol> i'm about 1.8
13:31:13 <mroman> 1.69, 65kg
13:31:13 <oklopol> okay
13:32:54 <mroman> I love physical exercise as much as esoteric programming languages.
13:33:01 <mroman> That's a good thingy.
13:33:04 <mroman> ehm.
13:33:11 <mroman> *dictionary*
13:33:27 <mroman> attitude
13:34:05 <oklopol> i stopped jogging when winter.
13:34:15 <oklopol> ion: helsingki?
13:34:18 <oklopol> *helsinki
13:34:21 <ion> Tampere
13:34:44 <oklopol> university?
13:39:07 <ion> nope
13:39:18 <oklopol> work?
13:39:20 <ion> nope
13:39:23 <oklopol> high school?
13:39:29 <ion> nope :-P
13:39:36 <oklopol> just plain chillin'?
13:40:13 <ion> I was in TAMK for a year and worked a bit, but developed some health problems which put an end to that for now.
13:40:32 <oklopol> i'll take that as a "yes, BUT"
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14:10:30 <mroman> My new esolang is coming along great \o/
14:10:30 <myndzi> ¦
14:10:30 <myndzi> ´¸¨
14:10:54 <oerjan> myndzi: you should get that man to a hospital
14:10:57 <mroman> bot? (\o/)
14:10:57 <myndzi> |
14:10:57 <myndzi> /|
14:11:06 <mroman> I see.
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14:11:24 <oerjan> script
14:12:09 <oerjan> ^celebrate
14:12:09 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
14:12:09 <oerjan> fungot?
14:12:09 <fungot> oerjan: don't do it right! but no, not in mine fibonacci numbers would take a look at
14:12:10 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | ¦
14:12:10 <myndzi> /< |\ |\ | /| /| /`\ | /< /| ´¸¨
14:12:10 <myndzi> (_|¯`\ /'\
14:12:10 <myndzi> |_) (_| |_)
14:13:15 <oerjan> fungot: fibonacci, eh?
14:13:16 <fungot> oerjan: which i'll try and do something new things get burned and you have some hope to actually debug it...
14:13:21 <oerjan> ^style
14:13:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:14:12 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA chainsaw
14:14:22 <mroman> fungot: fungot
14:14:22 <fungot> mroman: you're doing the equivalent of `',x using only quasiquote?! :(
14:15:36 <oerjan> ^ul ((*)(*))(~:^~Sa~^*a*~:^):^
14:15:36 <fungot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************ ...too much output!
14:15:38 <oerjan> oops
14:15:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((*)(*))(~:^~(/)*Sa~^*a*~:^):^
14:15:45 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
14:15:50 <mroman> ^help
14:15:50 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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14:17:24 <mroman> ^hs mapM id(" ">>["1234"])
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14:18:01 <oerjan> sorry, implementing haskell in funge98 is still a bit beyond mankind
14:18:38 <oerjan> ^source
14:18:38 <oerjan> fungot: why so slow?
14:18:38 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
14:18:39 <fungot> oerjan: http://www.dilbert.com/ comics/ ft/ 2005/ 02/15-feb-2005 is there a rough oklotalk spec anywhere?)
14:19:14 <oerjan> fungot: not in dilbert, i suspect
14:19:15 <fungot> oerjan: ask questions, you have to be commands, and i suspect the deficiency is in unix, but isn't
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14:21:24 * oerjan concludes that url has more than spaces wrong with it
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15:15:46 <fizzie> fungot: Are you slow?
15:15:46 <fungot> fizzie: eval ( ( cons. 2)
15:15:54 <fizzie> Doesn't seem so slow.
15:17:10 <mroman> fungot: pointful (.foo).(bar)
15:17:10 <fungot> mroman: ( cadr fnord) doesn't faithfully preserve the meaning of " oklopol"? i thought it was apparent.
15:17:24 <mroman> Never does what I ask him to :(
15:17:25 <oklopol> :D
15:17:48 <mroman> fungot: Slap someone.
15:17:48 <fungot> mroman: " friends of brainfuck", it was easy to implement malloc and free; or you are studying cs right? which area is your main interest?
15:18:07 <fizzie> If you want a sycophant, lambdabot is right there.
15:20:05 <mroman> sycophant?
15:20:32 <fizzie> 1. sycophant, toady, crawler, lackey, ass-kisser -- (a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage)
15:21:23 <mroman> I thought of psyo + elephant :D
15:21:26 <mroman> *psyco
15:23:07 <fizzie> lambdabot: Are you some sort of psychotic pachyderm?
15:23:13 <fizzie> Quiet guy.
15:23:21 <mroman> > 0
15:23:22 <lambdabot> 0
15:23:29 <mroman> :type 0
15:23:36 <mroman> > :type 0
15:23:37 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
15:23:48 <fizzie> :t you-mean
15:23:48 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `you'
15:23:49 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `mean'
15:24:12 <mroman> ?type 0
15:24:13 <lambdabot> forall t. (Num t) => t
15:24:36 <fizzie> Or that.
15:24:39 <fizzie> @. unpl pl \f g (a,b) -> (f a, g b)
15:24:39 <lambdabot> (\ aa f -> (\ p w -> ((,)) (aa (fst p)) (f w)) >>= \ af -> snd >>= \ ae -> return (af ae))
15:24:54 <fizzie> Likes to do things the hard way.
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18:04:58 <nooga> starym
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20:39:28 <zzo38> I thought you didn't know that already!!
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20:42:19 <zzo38> Isn't it?
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20:51:09 <Ngevd> Hello!
20:55:08 <mroman> I so love pattern matching in my esolang <3
20:55:49 <mroman> http://pastebin.com/i26ezt5W <- looks kinda neat
20:56:56 <ais523> ooh, an esolang
20:57:44 <fizzie> Oh no, an esolang.
20:57:54 <mroman> Nothing rare amongst here I guess :)
20:58:04 <Ngevd> You'd think that, but no
20:58:17 <mroman> Who would have thought.
20:58:34 <Ngevd> Also, I think the programming tools on my graphical calculator are oddly suited for interpreting Numberwang
20:58:58 <fizzie> Ooh, a graphical calculator; which one?
20:59:23 <Ngevd> It's a Casio, and that's as much as I can tell you off the top of my head
20:59:23 <oerjan> what, an esolang? no way that's on topic here.
21:00:21 <fizzie> Unless it's about magick or something, then it might be.
21:02:35 <fizzie> Ngevd: So how does one program them? I'm just aware of TI-BASIC (the silliest sort of BASIC), and old HP calculators' RPL thing vaguely.
21:03:05 <Ngevd> You type in the program...?
21:03:19 <Ngevd> It's got if statements and for loops and while loops and gotos
21:03:39 <monqy> aaaahhh, gotos
21:04:21 <mroman> C also has gotos, so that does not tell us much ;)
21:04:33 <Ngevd> It's not C
21:04:46 <fizzie> Yes, I just wondered about the language. Whether it resembled something that exists.
21:06:34 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I guess the only two ways TI-BASIC actually resembles BASIC more than $generic_imperative_language are 1) the loads of limitations and 2) the "BASIC" in the name.
21:06:49 <Ngevd> BASIC-like, I believe
21:07:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: Now open for Pirates | Take a trip to see our forts | Get your esoloot here! | Claims elliott shortage hurts productivity "Absurd, arrr" | Glorious optators "be worried, arrr" about missing treasure | Based on the power of clichés! | Spotted marsh elliott spotted in other marsh | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:07:16 <zzo38> TI-BASIC isn't BASIC it is a different programming language
21:08:29 <mroman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_PC-1403 ftw.
21:08:30 <fizzie> (And RPL is vaguely Forthy instead.)
21:08:32 <zzo38> I have written programs for the TI-92. The programs run slowly, although if you know a few tricks you can speed it up a bit.
21:09:09 <fizzie> I've written some TI-BASIC "programs" for the TI-86, and the implementation sure is slow.
21:10:15 <fizzie> Then again, the TI-86 arithmetic routines are very very bloaty. (I've a friend who's poked them; and anyway ten-bytes-or-so BCD just won't be very fast anyhow.)
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21:11:30 <fizzie> Isn't TI-92 that m68k one?
21:12:12 <ion> I know TI-96 is. Dunno about 92.
21:12:36 <fizzie> I recall that in some high-school exams the rules were that you could use a TI-86 but not a TI-92 because the latter did some symbolic derivation fluff.
21:13:07 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes; I think that was one reason, but there was also another reason being the TI-92 had a QWERTY keyboard.
21:13:15 <zzo38> So there were two reasons it wasn't allowed
21:13:39 <fizzie> A keyboard is a bit of a weird reason.
21:13:53 <ion> Err, wait. It’s been years since i used them and i utterly mixed up the numbers. Ignore what i said.
21:14:05 <zzo38> Yes but that is one of the reasons
21:14:21 <zzo38> (The symbolic derivation is another reason why it is disallowed)
21:14:26 <olsner> that makes no sense, what does the keyboard give you that you can't already do?
21:14:45 <ion> TI-89 is the one in know to have a 68000.
21:14:49 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe if the exam is about keyboard layouts?
21:14:54 <zzo38> I don't know, but it is a reason
21:14:55 <olsner> input is too damn fast on these new calculators, we need to slow people down!
21:15:07 <mroman> Is there a calculator with APL?
21:15:20 <mroman> That would really make me laugh :D
21:15:29 <zzo38> Make one!
21:15:30 <fizzie> 92 apparently also has, according to Wiki. Also I think I might've confused the 92 and 89 too.
21:15:31 <ion> You could implement an APL mode to some of them. :-)
21:16:10 <olsner> calculators are quite boring machines
21:16:53 <fizzie> Oh, 89 had the "vertical" format but still did that 68k thing? That must be a newer thing.
21:19:23 <fizzie> I got the TI-86 in... 96, I think, and chose it because of the allowed-in-the-exams status. (Well, and our class had a discounted-group-purchase event for the 86, too.)
21:19:49 <ais523> fizzie: in exams in the UK, you have to wipe a calculator's memory before taking it into an exam
21:20:13 <fizzie> ais523: Same here, but the 92 has some symbolic-algebra in the ROM.
21:21:23 <fizzie> ais523: Also there's some code for the TI-86 that disables the reset functionality, but fakes the on-screen displays as if it succeeded, IIRC.
21:21:34 <zzo38> You could still upgrade the ROM to your own version. That is probably why Texas Instruments used the digital signatures on the ROM of one model
21:21:37 <ais523> fizzie: haha
21:21:42 <ais523> invented by some enterprising cheater?
21:21:46 <zzo38> fizzie: I know about that; I have read about it
21:22:00 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not sure I can figure out any other use case for it.
21:22:43 <zzo38> Once I cheated an exam by using the coughing code! So that other students can copy the answers off of me
21:22:44 <fizzie> Maybe "protect your calculators from resets done by siblings" or something.
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21:23:06 <ion> I love the effort some people spend to avoid spending effort to study for tests.
21:23:29 <zzo38> I also once read about a hardware modification that adds a "backup backup battery" since some teachers will steal the backup battery from your calculator
21:23:41 <zzo38> (Even outside of a test/exam)
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21:25:04 <zzo38> Once a teacher told us to drop the covers on the floor since apparently some students wrote the answers on them
21:25:21 <fizzie> There's a quasi-popular/simple "install a switch that overclocks the Z80 from 6 MHz to K MHz" mod for the 86. (I don't quite recall what K is; and it eats batteries faster + not all things work right when overclocked.)
21:25:22 <ais523> zzo38: you aren't allowed to take calculator covers into exams in the UK
21:25:25 <ais523> for that reason, I think
21:25:47 <zzo38> Someone could still write on the calculator itself; perhaps on the inside of the battery compartment
21:27:00 <fizzie> Apparently it goes up to around 15-18 MHz if you disconnect a capacitor.
21:27:00 <ion> Someone could cheat by making neural connections in their brain revealing the answers.
21:27:38 <mroman> In what exams?
21:27:40 <zzo38> People have cracked the ROM key anyways so some people can install whatever program you want in ROM (including an entirely different operating system)
21:27:53 <mroman> Usually you are allowed to take tons of materials to the exams.
21:28:03 <ais523> mroman: A-level and university exams
21:28:06 <mroman> Like handwritten summaries et al
21:28:27 <fizzie> Also I scratched my name into the aluminium foil that's behind the display inside the case, for a "prove it's mine in case of theft" scenario, though that never happened.
21:28:57 <fizzie> Also we had very few exams in in high-school-equivalent where you could bring any written material to.
21:29:19 <ais523> in A-levels, sometimes there'll be written material assigned to you
21:29:27 <mroman> Usually at university level you are allowed to use up to two pages of a handwritten summary
21:29:27 <ais523> that's given to you inside the exam room so that you can't cheat by modifying it
21:29:28 <zzo38> I have heard of people that wrote on their entire body
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21:29:33 <mroman> and a formula collection, of course
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21:29:51 <mroman> *formulary
21:30:05 <Sgeo> WTF
21:30:14 <Sgeo> Why is this Install Updates button not working
21:30:41 <fizzie> And I'd think most of our university exams were closed-book ones, though there's exceptions. And sometimes provided material.
21:30:43 <Sgeo> I think a daemon tried when I tried it before
21:31:00 <Sgeo> What's the command-line thing? sudo apt-get upgrade?
21:31:36 <mroman> I've just had my semester final exams
21:31:37 <ais523> Sgeo: update, then upgrade
21:31:45 <ais523> update downloads the updates, upgrade installs them
21:31:48 <fizzie> Also there's one particular book of math/physics/chemistry formulas that you can bring to the "matriculation examination", e.g. the thing at the end of high school that's often used for university entrance score calculations.
21:32:03 <Sgeo> Ok
21:32:05 <mroman> And in every exam we were allowed to use at least 2 pages of handwritten stuff.
21:32:17 <mroman> in some even up to ten pages.
21:32:23 <Sgeo> Look like things are downloading from the command line
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21:33:32 <fizzie> Cultural differences, I assume; I don't recall any handwritten-notes-allowed exams offhand, and I'd think there were a total of at most five in the... however many exams there were in total. Certainly at least 50.
21:33:34 <zzo38> I had one exam where we were allowed to write whatever we wanted on an index card and bring it into an exam (there were a few restrictions, such as the size of the index card, you could only use one side, and you are not allowed to bring a magnifying glass, and it must be hand-written; although I assume it is OK to write it in code, or small enough that even though you can read it, the teacher can't).
21:33:39 <mroman> Although those summaries are usually not that useful.
21:34:10 <mroman> Nothing that you can write in a summary is going to make you smarter
21:34:17 <zzo38> I think I have asked the teacher if it is OK to write in code or very small; he said it is OK as long as a magnifying glass is not required
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21:34:36 <fizzie> You could write your name, if you forget it often.
21:35:22 <mroman> :)
21:35:47 <mroman> I'd rather write the name of the don on to the index card.
21:35:54 <fizzie> Aw, the web-thing can only count course credit points, not number of courses. (Not that all of them had exams.)
21:36:03 <zzo38> In one exam we were allowed both sides of a letter-sized paper. After writing everything on there, I had more than half of the paper left blank, so I copied the questions from the exam onto it.
21:37:43 <fizzie> We are usually (in university, anyway) allowed to take the exam paper out; there's a student-run (the CS student guild, actually) archive of scanned/retyped old exams.
21:38:25 <mroman> We only have access to the exams of last semester
21:38:32 <mroman> because there is no student-run archive ;)
21:39:11 <fizzie> Bah, it doesn't print totals either, But I'm sure there's at least a thousand.
21:41:30 <fizzie> 8516 exams, says a Perl oneliner.
21:42:24 <fizzie> It'd be an interesting exercise to quantify the mean amount of duplicate questions in one.
21:43:04 <fizzie> Quite a lot of exams rotate old questions back in instead of constantly inventing new ones.
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21:45:18 <Phantom___Hoover> The SQA offers past papers online, although I'm not sure how far back.
21:47:34 <fizzie> There are older, smaller, usually one-topic on-paper exam archives at the offices of the various student organizations. The web-thing is relatively recent.
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22:18:10 <zzo38> Once, on the final question of an exam, I did not know the answer of that final question and neither did the student next to me, so we both tried to cheat off of each other. (This was only for the final question, however. Neither of us cheated before then)
22:20:02 <oerjan> was the question "What is infinite recursion?"
22:22:01 <zzo38> oerjan: No. I do not remember what the question was, but I couldn't figure it out and neither could the student next to me.
22:29:34 <zzo38> I do not remember what class it was either, but I do remember we were permitted to use a spreadsheet
22:32:01 <Sgeo> kallisti, updoot
22:32:06 <Sgeo> Phantom___Hoover, uppost
22:39:12 <zzo38> Do you know if there is some way compiling Haskell and/or LLVM codes into Glulx virtual machine (in the case of Haskell, possibly using Template Haskell for something)?
22:57:31 <zzo38> I would like to write a text adventure game using Haskell, and make a Glulx file from it.
22:57:42 <zzo38> I also like to have LLVM to Glulx, for different reason.
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23:42:38 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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