←2012-01-31 2012-02-01 2012-02-02→ ↑2012 ↑all
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02:51:32 <Sgeo> kallisti has been updated.
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02:56:21 <kallisti> I see that the topic madness has gotten out of hand.
02:56:48 <monqy> im tears
02:59:19 <ion> the
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04:51:01 <itidus21> wow lambdabot is amazing
04:52:24 <monqy> hi
04:55:02 <quintopia> hi monqy. hi itidus21.
04:55:29 <itidus21> hi quintopia. hi monqy.
04:55:32 <monqy> hi
06:13:11 <oklopol> LOOK AT MY LAMBDABOT
06:13:34 <quintopia> my what a big lambdabot you have
06:13:55 <oklopol> thank you. but i would never sell my lambdabot so fuck off.
06:13:58 <oklopol> asshole.
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06:15:53 <quintopia> my what a big asshole you have
06:15:56 <oklopol> why doesn't Do have a wiki page?
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06:16:11 <quintopia> it surely do
06:19:38 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5855779463.txt here's the spec if someone wants to
07:02:36 <oklopol> fizzie: o
07:03:08 <oklopol> or anyone who can call finland, i need to find my cellphone :D
07:19:52 <itidus21> considers typing (2^43,112,609)-1 in unary
07:20:29 <monqy> hi
07:21:19 <itidus21> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111hi monqy1111111111111111111111111111[...]
07:21:45 <itidus21> 11111sorry this act is taking more time than i expected11111111111[...]
07:36:04 <fizzie> oklopol: Is this still RELEVANT. (I was getting to wurk.)
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09:56:25 <oklopol> fizzie: nope, it was hidden in my bed
09:56:35 <oklopol> (no idea how that's possible)
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10:03:02 <fizzie> I dreamed I bought an iPad. That's weird.
10:04:31 <Jafet> Freud something something
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10:55:09 <fizzie> Gbleh, peak low in Foreca's five-day forecast for here in Espoo is -27 °C. Brrr, winter.
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12:06:09 <ais523> happy mailman mailing list reminders day!
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12:15:34 <fizzie> Funny-story-time. I was google-mapsing the campus of this place I'll be visiting, and one building was marked "IMEC". Thought I'd click on it to see what it's about. Before I could click, however, up popped a tooltip that said only "The worst cafeteria in the world.", nothing else.
12:15:45 <fizzie> Apparently that's one of the "Google Reviews" for the place.
12:15:57 <fizzie> "8 out of 40 people found this review helpful."
12:15:59 <ais523> heh
12:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Convert
12:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear god how can this thing possibly work.
12:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, you know the horrors of MW template markup better than I.
12:22:37 <ais523> oh, it's just {{convert}}
12:22:53 <ais523> let's just say it's tagged {{esoteric}} for a reason
12:23:18 <ais523> but the template itself is basically just a jump table
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12:57:37 <oerjan> 07:19:52: <itidus21> considers typing (2^43,112,609)-1 in unary <-- you realize even binary will take months?
12:58:06 <itidus21> only months?
12:58:28 <itidus21> i guess its then a function of calculating the time to hold down the key
12:58:36 <itidus21> haha
12:58:55 <oerjan> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
12:59:08 <oerjan> that was 5 seconds on my keyboard
12:59:19 <oerjan> i guess there could be some network delay as well
12:59:48 <oerjan> > length "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"
12:59:49 <lambdabot> 126
13:00:11 <oerjan> > 43112609/25/86400
13:00:12 <lambdabot> 19.959541203703704
13:00:17 <oerjan> oh hm
13:00:23 <oerjan> actually just 20 days
13:00:32 <oerjan> SO GO AHEAD, THEN
13:00:34 <oklopol> what does (2^43,112,609) mean
13:00:45 <oerjan> oklopol: freaky english notation
13:01:04 <itidus21> (2^43,112,609) MINUS ONE
13:01:31 <oerjan> given the accuracy of my keyboard measurement, i don't think i'm going to worry about the minus one.
13:01:37 <oklopol> oh 2^(43,112,609)-1 where , means
13:01:42 <oklopol> ?
13:01:59 <Deewiant> Thousands separator
13:02:06 <oerjan> yes, oklopol. how cosmopolitanly realized of you.
13:02:07 <itidus21> heheheh
13:02:13 <fizzie> The standard AT keyboard controller can go up to 30.0 characters per second; though systems can nowadays do any sort of rate in software.
13:02:16 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah so it means
13:02:16 <fizzie> > 5*30
13:02:17 <lambdabot> 150
13:02:22 <fizzie> That's not too far off from 126.
13:02:38 <itidus21> i was aware when i typed it that i should have just typed 43112609 to avoid regional diffeercnes
13:02:51 <itidus21> but i didn't cos i don't know those regional differences
13:03:11 <oerjan> well 126 means essentially 25
13:03:26 <itidus21> anyway oerjan, 20 days is because i came up with the efficient method of pre-calculating the key holding time
13:03:49 <itidus21> ok you worked out the details
13:03:53 <itidus21> credit where its due
13:04:03 <itidus21> accuracy is another problem
13:04:21 <itidus21> since it has to be exactly the right number of keypresses
13:05:24 <fizzie> The AT rate list is nonuniformly spaced; it's 2.0, 2.1, 2.3, 2.5, 2.7, 3.0, 3.3, 3.7, 4.0, 4.3, 4.6, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 6.7, 7.5, 8.0, 8.6, 9.2, 10.0, 10.9, 12.0, 13.3, 15.0, 16.0, 17.1, 18.5, 20.0, 21.8, 24.0, 26.7, 30.0. (But 1/rate is sort-of piecewise linear.)
13:05:39 <fizzie> Sparc systems go up to 50 cps, I remember that being SO FAST.
13:05:47 <fizzie> That's, like, ten days.
13:06:42 <oerjan> itidus21: tricky. but i guess editors can keep track of that.
13:07:02 <oerjan> assuming you find one which can handle lines that long.
13:07:23 <itidus21> oerjan: when i envisioned the idea initially i imagined the painstaking anxiety caused by looking at a stream of 1s and keeping count
13:07:50 <oerjan> itidus21: ah, inventing a new spot in hell, i take.
13:08:35 <oerjan> "OK, your punishment isn't eternal, you just have to type this number, correctly."
13:08:44 <itidus21> :))
13:08:54 <itidus21> but sir.. this keyboard.. only has 1 ley
13:08:58 <itidus21> ^key
13:09:24 <itidus21> hmm i could allow for backspace and enter keys also
13:09:25 <itidus21> 3 keys
13:09:49 <itidus21> oh and left and right keys
13:09:52 <oerjan> "no backspace, although if you make a mistake you may reboot"
13:10:31 <itidus21> and then i paused for thought
13:11:09 <itidus21> i wonder if useful unary lambda calculus programs correlate with some category of numbers
13:13:08 <fizzie> perl -e 'print "0"x43112609;' > tmp.tmp; vi tmp.tmp; => "tmp.tmp" [noeol] 1L, 43112609C; but $ moves the cursor to column 43112609 with no problems, though it did spend quite a while thinking when loading the file.
13:13:35 <fizzie> And, uh, moving is quite laggy.
13:14:00 <oerjan> well a useful lambda calculus program pretty much has to begin with (, so what does that imply for the unary version?
13:14:44 <fizzie> "File tmp.txt is large (41MB), really open? (y or n)" -- heh, Emacs is being careful.
13:14:47 <itidus21> incidentally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime_number :P
13:15:13 <oerjan> ah right, it looked a little mersenny
13:15:17 <fizzie> Opens rather fast, though there's an almost-second delay when moving the cursor.
13:15:32 <itidus21> so yes.. you don't have to feel foolish for taking an interest in it
13:15:46 <ais523> fizzie: why are you editing a text file of 43112609 zeroes anyway? something to do with Unary?
13:16:37 <itidus21> oerjan: i don't have a clue really..... to me unary lambda calc is a magical idea
13:17:02 <oerjan> ais523: how did you get switched with Vorpal
13:17:03 <ais523> what's that esolang that's Unlambda except with no combinators?
13:17:14 <ais523> oerjan: Vorpal's started acting like me, anyway
13:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> He has?
13:17:46 <ais523> and the scrollback only implies that itidus21 is trying to enter 2^43112609-1, not why
13:17:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean to say that
13:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't actually seen him in forever.
13:18:01 <ais523> I meant "has Vorpal started acting like me, then?"
13:18:03 <oerjan> ais523: he didn't explain that, i think
13:18:08 <ais523> and got confused midsentence
13:18:12 <itidus21> laughs aloud @ and the scrollback[...]
13:18:13 <oerjan> except with his last link maybe
13:18:27 <itidus21> the last link certainly didn't explain it!
13:18:36 <itidus21> nothing on earth could explain it
13:19:04 <fizzie> oerjan: According to Mathematics(TM), ais523 is the third-most-likely author for Vorpal-written text. (The first two most likely are Vorpal, and AnMaster.)
13:19:16 <itidus21> but on the last link theres a hint
13:19:18 <ais523> fizzie: is that just line length analysis?
13:19:34 <itidus21> it lists the number as having 12,978,189 digits
13:19:59 <itidus21> and i guess i thought to myself, that would be even worse in unary
13:20:06 <ais523> itidus21: careful with that @, it's going to get search-replaced some time in the future
13:20:09 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's from that thing which I pasted earlier, using the mixture-of-bernoulli models with different sort of binary features related to word length/line length/personal-pronoun-use/punctuation/whatever.
13:20:15 <ais523> ah, OK
13:20:18 <ais523> I think I might have missed that
13:20:32 <ais523> who has the highest whatever score?
13:20:40 <itidus21> ahh ... so the number will have 2^43112609-1 unary digits !?!
13:20:43 <fizzie> It's the thing where you correctly divined that the "’m not in a mood for non-trivial INTERCAL program
13:20:48 <fizzie> s" was your comment.
13:20:51 <ais523> aha
13:21:03 <itidus21> i was thinking about how mathematical notation saves an awful lot of typing
13:21:05 <fizzie> Also apparently pasting from the slides was a bad idea, and what's that silly-apostrophe doing there.
13:21:58 <ais523> fizzie: looks like you pasted from a PDF
13:22:00 <itidus21> a kind of extension of some old chinese story about writing number 1 with one line, 2 with two lines, 3 with three lines, then someone asks him to write the character for 10,000
13:22:08 <fizzie> I did, yes.
13:22:10 <itidus21> and he goes on trying to write ten thousand lines
13:22:17 <ais523> i.e. most of the characters are right, but special characters are swapped with different special characters, and line breaks appear in entirely the wrong places
13:22:19 <fizzie> ais523: For your comments, the three most likely authors are ais523, AnMaster, and oerjan, in that order.
13:22:30 <ais523> fizzie: hmm
13:22:35 <ais523> did you normalize away ais523_?
13:22:54 <itidus21> basically that the exponent notation is more than syntactic sugar
13:22:56 <fizzie> In the sense of disregarding it. This was a simple thing.
13:22:59 <ais523> (I'm actually curious as to whether I talk differently as ais523 and ais523_; I use the nicks in different circumstances)
13:23:01 <ais523> ah, OK
13:23:09 <itidus21> but makes some numbers expressible which would not be readily cognizeable in unary form
13:23:25 <fizzie> I had AnMaster and Vorpal as separate entities, as well as ehird, elliott and alise.
13:23:55 <fizzie> And it correctly "found" those groupings, in the sense that they had relatively speaking highest mutual confusion potential there.
13:24:29 <fizzie> Though oerjan and oklopol are very much like one person, too. (Suspicious?)
13:25:06 <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:25:34 <ais523> `addquote <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:25:46 <HackEgo> 806) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:26:25 <oerjan> fizzie: eek
13:26:46 <itidus21> fizzie: i assume this room is not like that.
13:26:53 <itidus21> there will be hell to pay if it is
13:27:04 <oerjan> like what
13:27:17 <itidus21> like counting to 2^43112609-1 in unary
13:27:21 <itidus21> oh
13:27:31 <itidus21> like people using multiple personas to chat
13:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> I had AnMaster and Vorpal as separate entities, as well as ehird, elliott and alise.
13:28:36 <ais523> `quote itidus
13:28:40 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 493) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 494) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
13:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you compared Phantom_Hoover, Phantom__Hoover and Phantom___Hoover to see if the stress of my router hating me takes its toll?
13:29:20 <itidus21> 2^43112609-1 was the first discovered "prime number of over 10 million digits."
13:29:25 <oerjan> `? Phantom___Hoover
13:29:29 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:29:42 <oerjan> argh
13:29:45 <oerjan> `? Phantom___Hoover
13:29:48 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
13:30:01 <oerjan> oh right, it wasn't that command i fixed the issue for
13:30:47 <itidus21> oklopol: but stones decay eventually
13:31:02 <itidus21> :>
13:31:14 <oerjan> it's a little crazy that they haven't found any efficient-to-calculate formula which gives unbounded prime numbers
13:31:25 <itidus21> i forget where that conversation went
13:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Prime numbers in general are crazy.
13:31:34 <fizzie> Prime numbers are a little crazy... aw, snap.
13:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, they have such a stupidly simple method of generation, and yet they don't submit to any easy form of analysis at all.
13:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything we have is vague asymptoty stuff.
13:32:24 <oerjan> you know there are heaps of them, and approximately how many, but pinning down one of large size is still a hard problem
13:32:40 <oerjan> *how many in each interval
13:33:20 <fizzie> Also there's the prime directive, which forbids you from bringing information about large-valued primes into societies that have not yet found primes of equal magnitude. Or something like that, anyway.
13:37:20 <oerjan> i saw yesterday something relevant at http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php, but you'll have to reload until you see something about WOW! signal, as i have no idea how to link to a specific one
13:37:26 <oerjan> and it's too long to paste
13:40:30 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VdbI in case someone doesn't feel like reloading.
13:40:54 <ais523> fizzie: thanks: I was trying to find it by reloading but haven't yet
13:41:22 <fizzie> (Also there's a wikilink to the Wow! signal that got dropped by the pasteying.)
13:41:45 <oerjan> i spent a while reloading it yesterday and i'm _still_ not entirely sure i got all of them. almost sure, though.
13:44:59 <ais523> oerjan: mathematically it's impossible to ever be sure
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13:45:21 <ais523> and given that you can't even assume they all have the same probability, you can't even know the probability that you've seen them all
13:45:53 <oerjan> indeed, i got this sense some were more often than others
13:46:38 <oerjan> *frequent
13:46:38 <oerjan> of course mathematically i cannot be sure of that, either :P
13:47:25 <fizzie> Stop talking like that or you'll make me ten thousand samples to get some estimates.
13:47:38 <fizzie> s/me/me take/
13:47:39 <ais523> this is what null hypotheses were invented for!
13:47:58 <ais523> actually, if you refresh it often enough, DMM will probably get fed up with the server load and outright tell you the probabilities
13:48:02 * ais523 lateral thinking
13:48:02 <oerjan> see fizzie become the first person ever banned from mezzacotta. well i guess there will have been spammers.
13:48:26 <oerjan> i _guess_ you could also ask in the forum.
13:48:35 <fizzie> I was thinking of having a ten second interval, that's not much of a load, and will take 10k samples in a day and a bit.
13:50:13 <oerjan> i don't recall ever seeing spam on the forum, come to think of it. but then i read it in twice-weekly bursts.
13:53:05 <fizzie> Distribution at 10 samples: http://sprunge.us/BGEZ
13:53:22 <fizzie> (The value is the sha1sum of the returned page.)
13:53:51 <fizzie> Clearly 421... is three times more likely than 0b5...
13:54:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there are more than 10 versions :P
13:54:29 <fizzie> I've gotten 11 versions in 20 samples.
13:56:24 <fizzie> Ooh, a 12th version.
13:56:32 <fizzie> Did you count how many you found?
13:56:50 <fizzie> Uh, now it's back to 11.
13:57:14 <fizzie> Must have been sha1sum that read an incomplete copy.
14:00:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VIYV ... looks reasonably uniform so far... in fact, one might say it looks SUSPICIOUSLY uniform. Hmm.
14:02:35 <ais523> too early to tell, really
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14:03:39 <oerjan> no, i didn't count
14:16:59 <oerjan> hm, i realize i may have overestimated by confusing it with reloadings of the FAQ, as well
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14:19:01 <oerjan> fizzie: actually i cannot seem to get the 11th one :P
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14:20:36 <oerjan> oh there
14:24:07 <fizzie> If X is a uniformly distributed integer 0 .. 10, and Y the sequence formed by repeatedly sampling from X until Y contains each integer 0 .. 10 at least once, what's the expected length of Y?
14:24:30 <oerjan> aliens from Xabaduni IV; three golfers from Maine; Guernsey Comics Collective; Wow! signal; ancient Sumerian clay tablets; IP address Langerhans Islets; Edgar Planer; After representations received on behalf of; How awesome would it be if someone produced a webcomic without the comic?; John Lennon and Paul McCartney; As reviewed by TV Tropes:
14:25:00 <oerjan> the last two held out a _long_ time
14:26:19 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure that's a common chestnut/exercise
14:27:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gUOf <- I have these eleven.
14:28:12 <fizzie> Wait, that's just 10.
14:28:20 <fizzie> Do two start similarly or something?
14:30:10 <oerjan> no, i think you are missing one of Edgar Planer or three golfers from Maine
14:30:14 <oerjan> unfortunately my descriptions don't all start at the beginning
14:31:29 <oerjan> while the other one is your "In the mid-1990s, one of the"
14:32:07 <oerjan> which i _think_ is edgar planer, which is strange since i thought i got the golfers all the time
14:32:40 <fizzie> Oh, it's just the "get the first line" grep acting up.
14:33:53 <fizzie> It starts "<i>COAP</i> started ..." and that got removed by a "remove-the-<h2>-and-<p>-lines" bit.
14:34:06 <fizzie> Because it matches ^<.
14:34:14 <oerjan> ah.
14:35:42 <fizzie> I wouldn't put it past DMM/whoever to have one extra-rare reply; let's hope my ten thousand attempts are enough for it to show up.
14:36:37 <oerjan> oh, and also
14:37:16 <oerjan> > let e 1 = 1; e n = 1 + n/(n-1) * e (n-1) in e 11
14:37:17 <lambdabot> 33.218650793650795
14:37:26 <oerjan> iirc
14:37:44 <fizzie> Okay, but why?
14:38:26 <fizzie> > let e 1 = 1; e n = 1 + n/(n-1) * e (n-1) in e 2
14:38:27 <lambdabot> 3.0
14:38:32 <fizzie> Well, it sounds so reasonable.
14:38:55 <oerjan> well your first try will always be a new item. and every try after that has (n-1)/n chance of not being the same as the first, which essentially rescales the expectation for n-1. i think.
14:40:49 <fizzie> Okay. (And what's the distribution for the length?)
14:41:09 <oerjan> heck if i know
14:45:09 <fizzie> That's all right; it doesn't count as a question anyway since I didn't formulate it in terms of balls and urns.
14:46:30 <oerjan> i'm looking at wikipedia's probability distributions template and none of them are obviously relevant.
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15:04:20 <fizzie> Just look for something that has k!/(k^k) as the first nonzero value, I'm sure it's that. :p
15:04:41 <oerjan> argh
15:05:53 <fizzie> Humorously, I tried a Google search for "k!/(k^k)" (with quotes), and the first hit is "KKK: Ku Klux Klan, this one's for you!"
15:06:01 <oerjan> geometric distribution : binomial distribution :: ? : multinomial distribution
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15:07:22 <oerjan> oh finally, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_collector%27s_problem
15:07:39 <oerjan> i couldn't remember the name
15:08:45 <oerjan> but it was mentioned at the bottom of the geometric distribution article
15:11:49 <oerjan> fizzie: ^
15:13:54 <fizzie> Very good. I won't subtract points for the fact that there's only E(T) and Var(T) there, not a simple equation for P(T=t), on grounds of there also being a link to a nice generating-function approach for getting those E(T) and Var(T).
15:14:20 <ais523> hmm, mezzacotta's comic generator seems to have got better
15:14:36 <ais523> in particular, the participants in each comic seem to react to each other now, if only at a rudimentary level
15:14:46 <oerjan> ais523: erm they always have
15:14:57 <ais523> oerjan: nah, at the very start they didn't
15:15:03 <ais523> it was just two independent conversations interleaved
15:17:07 <oerjan> if you say so. i recall them saying that they haven't made the generator possible to change without wiping out all the old comics
15:18:03 <oerjan> as in, comics that haven't been watched in a while drop out of cache and get regenerated
15:20:46 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, but they've definitely added new characters
15:20:59 <ais523> so either they just wipe out the old comics and nobody notices, or they use the old generator on previously visited comics
15:21:10 <ais523> they wouldn't have to record the comics themselves, just the fact that they existed at one time
15:21:32 <oerjan> if they changed anything, it was _very_ early.
15:22:20 <ais523> well, I was around pretty much at the start
15:22:26 <ais523> it got mentioned on-channel
15:22:30 <ais523> and then I stopped reading it for years
15:24:03 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=5891
15:24:41 <oerjan> "There's no versioning, so we can't change the algorithm, otherwise the hashes would produce different comics. Which is good and bad. Bad in that we can't improve the algorithms, good in that we can't improve the algorithms (and therefore don't spend inordinate amounts of our spare time doing so, which leaves us free to do other stuff, like Darths & Droids)."
15:25:58 <oerjan> the belief that they've added new characters _could_ just be the coupon collector's problem hitting :P
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15:27:38 <oerjan> the only exception i recall is that they once changed it entirely for April 1.
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15:28:17 <oerjan> he's alive!
15:29:02 <oerjan> or at least his client.
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17:32:22 <Vorpal> ...how can a display driver download be 148 MB? That is quite insane.
17:33:21 <Slereah_> Because software programmers have stopped caring, maybe
17:33:29 <Vorpal> possibly
17:33:30 <Slereah_> "Everyone has awesome computers now, no need to bother!"
17:34:02 <Vorpal> well, the computer I'm installing it on is indeed awesome
17:35:16 <Vorpal> btw that is the windows display drivers, clicking custom installation reveals that the control panel component of it takes 150 MB of disk space.
17:35:50 <Slereah_> I guess the same reason that firefox is now OVER A GIGABYTE
17:35:58 <Vorpal> is it?
17:35:59 <Vorpal> wtf
17:36:12 <Slereah_> Wait
17:36:16 <Slereah_> It's not!
17:36:17 <Vorpal> hm ubuntu claims 40 MB
17:36:23 <Slereah_> Why was it on my old PC
17:36:23 <Vorpal> for installed size
17:36:28 <Slereah_> (I just reinstalled windows)
17:36:33 <Slereah_> Because EVERYTHING WAS SLOW
17:36:36 <Slereah_> Maybe that is why!
17:36:40 <Vorpal> Slereah_, that is a windows problem :P
17:36:50 <Slereah_> Firefox was at an installed size of 1.20 GB or so
17:36:59 <Slereah_> Now it's 38 MB!
17:37:11 <Slereah_> I don't even know
17:37:25 <Slereah_> I guess I could go with some lame "I probably got some malwares" excuse
17:37:33 <Slereah_> But 1 GB sounds like a lot even for that
17:37:48 <Vorpal> I blame it being windows
17:37:59 <Slereah_> For 1GB I would hope at least to be monitored by the FBI
17:38:08 <Slereah_> Well I'm on windows now, and it's not!
17:38:24 <Vorpal> Slereah_, the other day windows decided that the experience index thingy was up to date but it refused to show the value
17:38:29 <Vorpal> until after a reboot
17:38:58 <Vorpal> that was 64-bit win7 pro btw
17:39:03 <Gregor> Hey folks I made an awesome new whatever it is that I make go download it it's 15GB
17:39:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, almost as large as my last panorama ;)
17:40:28 <Vorpal> (actually, I can't upload the panoramas I make as I would like them, I have to apply jpeg compression to get them down to reasonable sizes of 20-30 MB...)
17:41:23 <Gregor> So I bought a pair of wireless headphones because I keep on breaking headphones by stepping on the wires 'til I break something.
17:41:35 <Vorpal> (there was one recently that when saved as a tiff with deflate compression (which is what hugin outputs) was about 370 MB)
17:41:38 <Gregor> I was trying to figure out how to network the audio so I could just leave the base station attached to my desktop (since moving it defeats the purpose)
17:41:52 <Gregor> I eventually discovered it's easier to network video, even while playing a movie, than audio.
17:41:53 <Gregor> wtf.
17:42:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, err?
17:42:14 <Vorpal> how do you mean it is easier to do network audio than audio?
17:42:28 <Gregor> <Gregor> I eventually discovered it's easier to network VIDEO, even while playing a movie, than audio.
17:42:36 <Vorpal> oh wait
17:42:38 <Vorpal> misread
17:42:58 <Vorpal> btw, I'm curious, how is the sound quality with wireless headphones?
17:43:06 <Vorpal> (are they bluetooth based or?)
17:43:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, ^
17:44:49 <Gregor> They're RF and probably quite interceptable, but the sound quality has been fine. I noticed I had to turn up the audio all the way on the desktop and turn it down to a reasonable level on the headphones or I start to get static, but it's not noticeable once the levels are adjusted properly.
17:45:03 <Vorpal> hm
17:45:04 <Gregor> Sometimes when there's no other sound I can hear a bit of interference.
17:45:19 <Vorpal> that would annoy the hell out of me
17:45:37 <Vorpal> what about battery time?
17:46:36 <Gregor> I've only had them for a day, and they recharge in the base station so I don't really have any basis for judgement.
17:46:46 <Gregor> They just have two rechargeable AAA batteries.
17:47:31 <Vorpal> ah
17:48:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm you know the power connectors on modern apple laptops? they should use that for headphone cables...
17:49:52 <Gregor> I feel that both ends are the problem for me. I step on the damned cable while I'm wearing them ... and my cat attacks the cable too ...
17:50:01 <Vorpal> oh cats
17:50:02 <Vorpal> right
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18:05:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nvidia's "unified driver" is big partially because it supports so many different cards. But of course also partially because bloatiness.
18:06:16 <fizzie> Also cats and headphone cables are indeed not a good equation.
18:06:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, someone ported robotfindskitten to that Lego Mindstorm NXT thing. http://robotfindskitten.org/aw.cgi?main=news.rfk
18:07:04 <fizzie> Based on the name, someone Finnish. Or at least of Finnish ancestry.
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18:19:22 <Slereah_> Hey
18:19:32 <Slereah_> You know what the worst error message is?
18:19:41 <Slereah_> "Can't move this file because the filename is too long"
18:19:53 <Slereah_> When you're moving a folder with a few thousand files in it
18:19:57 <Slereah_> It can get annoying
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18:41:54 <fizzie> @tell oerjan At the moment, when 1640 samples have been taken, given the null hypothesis that the 11 variants are uniformly distributed, according to Pearson's chi-squared test, the p-value is 0.42, i.e. the deviation is not statistically significant. (But that's frequentist talk!)
18:41:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:38:57 <Ngevd> Hello!
19:39:54 <tswett> Hi.
19:40:38 <Ngevd> My internet connection is rather slow
19:42:38 <fizzie> Fortunately, there's nothing useful in the Internet either.
19:43:02 <Ngevd> Although apparently stable?
19:43:16 <Ngevd> @ping
19:43:17 <lambdabot> pong
19:46:04 <Ngevd> It's been over a minute, I suspect I may have lost connection
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20:41:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: ,[.,]!elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY..
20:42:30 <oerjan> @messages
20:42:31 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 36s ago: At the moment, when 1640 samples have been taken, given the null hypothesis that the 11 variants are uniformly distributed, according to Pearson's chi-squared test, the p-
20:42:31 <lambdabot> value is 0.42, i.e. the deviation is not statistically significant. (But that's frequentist talk!)
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20:46:28 <oerjan> <Vorpal> (actually, I can't upload the panoramas I make as I would like them, I have to apply jpeg compression to get them down to reasonable sizes of 20-30 MB...)
20:47:07 <oerjan> wasn't someone around here experimenting with lossless settings for some common image or video compression? i think maybe pikhq
20:47:42 <oerjan> it was years ago, though
20:48:05 <oerjan> and i think the conclusion was it wasn't half bad
20:50:43 * quintopia halps oerjan
20:51:03 <oerjan> how very nice
20:51:20 <oerjan> conclusion: people get nicer when you murder them in their sleep.
20:52:08 <quintopia> yeah that zombie thing was way off
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20:52:31 <Ngevd> Just written a quick Dupdog interpreter in Haskell
20:53:06 <Ngevd> The main function:
20:53:17 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ join $ fmap (lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:53:26 <monqy> yikes
20:53:43 <Ngevd> Wait a second
20:54:13 <oerjan> Ngevd: join . fmap f is known as f =<<
20:54:15 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ join $ fmap (maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:54:25 <Ngevd> oerjan, that's probably handy
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20:57:20 <oerjan> @pl join $ fmap (maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:57:21 <lambdabot> maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,))) =<< getEnvironment
20:57:44 <oerjan> :t lookup
20:57:45 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Eq a) => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b
20:58:19 <oerjan> @hoogle getEnvironment
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Environment getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)]
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Env getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)]
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Env getEnvironmentPrim :: IO [String]
20:59:39 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ maybe getContents readFile . lookup "" . map (uncurry (flip (,))) =<< getEnvironment
20:59:43 <Ngevd> I made a few typos as well
20:59:51 <oerjan> ah.
21:00:07 <oerjan> erm, why would you lookup "" in that
21:00:28 <Ngevd> Because that finds a key without a value
21:01:18 <oerjan> why in the world would you use that to get a filename?
21:01:23 <Ngevd> Because getEnvironment should return something like IO [("wrap","157"),("filename")]
21:01:28 <Ngevd> Because I'm magical
21:01:37 <Ngevd> And don't have a clue what I'm doing
21:02:08 <oerjan> what is wrong with using getArgs
21:02:14 <oerjan> @hoogle getArgs
21:02:14 <lambdabot> System.Environment getArgs :: IO [String]
21:02:15 <lambdabot> Graphics.UI.GLUT.Initialization getArgsAndInitialize :: IO (String, [String])
21:02:51 <oerjan> lessee
21:03:22 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile
21:03:23 <lambdabot> [FilePath] -> IO String
21:03:30 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile =<< getArgs
21:03:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `getArgs'
21:03:34 <oerjan> argh
21:03:41 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile =<< System.Environment.getArgs
21:03:42 <lambdabot> IO String
21:04:11 <monqy> uhh
21:04:29 <oerjan> monqy: PROBLEM?
21:04:35 <monqy> yes
21:04:45 <oerjan> naturally i'd use a case in practice myself
21:06:33 <oerjan> oh hm you have other flags too
21:07:33 <Ngevd> It doesn't handle ending very well
21:07:57 <fizzie> [("wrap","157"),("filename")] sounds like quite a "special" sort of list.
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21:09:05 <oerjan> come back you scoundrel
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21:09:12 <oerjan> Ngevd: are you trying to parse the command line? because that is _not_ what getEnvironment does.
21:09:35 <Ngevd> No, I'm trying to parse the arguments?
21:09:39 <fizzie> I suppose there's something getopt-like in there too?
21:09:41 <fizzie> @hoogle getopt
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt getOpt :: ArgOrder a -> [OptDescr a] -> [String] -> ([a], [String], [String])
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt getOpt' :: ArgOrder a -> [OptDescr a] -> [String] -> ([a], [String], [String], [String])
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt module System.Console.GetOpt
21:10:05 <Ngevd> If a file name is provided in the arguments, it loads the file, otherwise it uses the command line
21:10:07 <oerjan> Ngevd: the command line arguments? my point still remains.
21:10:25 <Ngevd> Hmm
21:10:54 <oerjan> and yes, getOpt can be used for this.
21:10:56 <Ngevd> Oh dear god you're right
21:11:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe if he wants the program to be called as "wrap=123 thingie" instead of "thingie --wrap 123".
21:11:15 <oerjan> fizzie: that would be _possible_ of course :P
21:11:30 <oerjan> but i had a hunch that's not what he wanted.
21:11:58 <Ngevd> fizzie, that is exactly what I wanted
21:12:03 <Ngevd> My brain is weird
21:12:27 <oerjan> oh O_O
21:12:34 <fizzie> Here 'thingie' was your program, incidentally.
21:12:59 <oerjan> _not_ the dupdog program, but the interpreter
21:13:12 <fizzie> Right.
21:13:13 <Ngevd> Oh
21:13:20 <Ngevd> That's not what I want
21:13:22 <fizzie> I'm not exactly sure how you wanted the filename thing to go in, since I doubt you can set "the environment variable with no name".
21:13:40 <Ngevd> fizzie, I did with my latin vocab program?
21:13:48 <Ngevd> Using getArgs
21:13:50 <oerjan> fizzie: um he's looking up for no _value_, not name.
21:14:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, there's a flip in there somewhere? Okay then; though I suppose there might be several.
21:14:33 <fizzie> getArgs sounds like it has absolutely zero things in common with the environment variables.
21:14:38 * oerjan is still confused what Ngevd actually wants.
21:14:39 <oerjan> Ngevd: how would you write a complete command line for calling your interpreter with wrap and filename settings?
21:14:51 <oerjan> *would you like to write
21:14:59 <Ngevd> dupdog hello.dupdog wrap=157
21:15:05 <monqy> why do you want that??
21:15:13 <Ngevd> BECAUSE I AM MAD
21:15:19 <Ngevd> And it made sense at the time
21:15:20 <monqy> ok
21:15:25 <Ngevd> And I don't know what the convention is
21:15:36 <Ngevd> ...What's the convention?
21:15:39 <oerjan> Ngevd: hm ok. dupdog hello.dupdog --wrap 157 would be easier to convinve getOpt to do, i think.
21:15:46 <oerjan> *c
21:16:00 <Ngevd> Okay
21:16:05 <kmc> the 'cmdargs' package is a much nicer way to parse command line arguments in haskell
21:16:07 <kmc> compared to getopt
21:16:22 <oerjan> always a package :P
21:17:03 <kmc> it's well documented too
21:17:23 <fizzie> Plain getArgs would give you ["hello.dupdog", "wrap=157"], which isn't too hard to parsemate, while I suppose getEnvironment would give you something like [("PATH", "/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games"), ("HOSTNAME", "something"), ("HOME", "/home/something"), ...].
21:17:47 <Ngevd> I misunderstood the function and never actually tested it
21:18:10 <oerjan> ["hello.dupdog", "--wrap", "157"] is even easier to parse
21:18:16 <kmc> also «IO [("wrap","157"),("filename")]» is not a thing ;P
21:19:37 <fizzie> Anyhoo, dashes is indeed the most common convention. Though there certainly are commands that take "foo=bar" options. 'dd' comes to mind.
21:20:03 <fizzie> Everyone hates dd for being different, though.
21:20:41 <oerjan> (that needs only pattern matching, no breaking up of substrings. well i guess you _could_ do 'w':'r':'a':'p':'=':wrapping)
21:20:48 <Ngevd> kmc, I was trying for IO [("wrap","157"),("filenam","")]
21:24:19 <kmc> that is also not a thing
21:24:42 <kmc> IO is a type constructor, not a data constructor
21:24:54 <kmc> (except at the GHC implementation level, but that data constructor does something completely different and unreasonable)
21:25:18 <kmc> a value of type (IO T) is not a value of type T "tainted" by the fact that it's "in IO"
21:25:49 <kmc> it's a description of an imperative program which, if executed, *would* produce a value of type T
21:25:56 <kmc> there is no T inside
21:31:13 <oerjan> getOpt Permute [Option "" ["wrap"] (ReqArg id "wrapping size") "wrapping size" `fmap` getArgs
21:31:21 <oerjan> er
21:31:29 <oerjan> getOpt Permute [Option "" ["wrap"] (ReqArg id "wrapping size") "wrapping size"] `fmap` getArgs
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21:49:45 <kallisti> sometimes...
21:49:48 <kallisti> irssi is really frustrating.
21:51:18 <monqy> hi
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22:26:47 <Taneb> Just flying around to say look at this crap: http://hpaste.org/57301
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22:44:40 <oerjan> @tell Taneb er... Dupdog is not supposed to have a program pointer, you always take the first character. Also your eval' is an infinite recursion (hint: unless you are writing generic combinators, a function argument with IO type is usually a mistake.)
22:44:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:49:47 <oerjan> @tell Taneb also, fail "Error: check the wrapping size you gave is a valid number." is misleading - nothing will check if the number is valid by that point.
22:49:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:58:01 <oerjan> @tell Taneb I can see how "The next character is read" might give you that impression though - but note that (I clearly recall) the initial inspiration for dupdog was the idea of two irc bots reacting to each other's lines as entirely new commands, for which such a remembering of position doesn't make sense.
22:58:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:40:10 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Hmm, that's funny... if I calculate the chi^2-score right, after 3370 samples I could say the distribution is in fact *not* uniform, at p=0.03, i.e. that the probability for getting at least as non-uniform results if they were actually from a uniform distribution is just 0.03.
23:40:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:40:31 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I might be calculating it wrong, though.
23:40:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:41:29 <oerjan> @tell fizzie OKAY
23:41:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:41:48 <fizzie> Oh, uh, right, maybe the @tell bit was a bit...
23:41:48 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:41:56 <fizzie> Hey, I have messages!
23:42:06 <fizzie> @message
23:42:06 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
23:42:08 <fizzie> @messages
23:42:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 38s ago: OKAY
23:42:21 <fizzie> Oh, it's just *you*. :( :( :(
23:42:41 <oerjan> how terrible
23:43:00 <fizzie> I'm thinking "@message" should also work, but only in the case where you actually do have a single message.
23:43:13 <oerjan> fancy
23:43:32 <oerjan> fizzie: is 3370 how much you have in total?
23:43:58 <fizzie> Yes. Well, it's 3406 now.
23:44:41 <oerjan> what's the ratio of largest to smallest item?
23:45:16 <fizzie> 1.3.
23:45:24 <oerjan> that's not overly large :P
23:45:35 <fizzie> 376/289, to be more exact.
23:45:54 <oerjan> too small to be an intended difference, me thinks
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