00:01:09 <calamari> oerjan: is there a maximum run time limit for hackego?
00:01:41 <Gregor> You realize it's my code, right
00:01:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:01:54 <Gregor> Oh, it doesn't show the hg URL there.
00:02:02 <Gregor> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
00:02:32 <hagb4rd> gregor how 'bout a nocturne..give me a hint
00:02:58 <Gregor> ... that was a bizarre ... question?
00:03:40 <Gregor> OK, what a bizarre ... command?
00:04:07 <hagb4rd> maybe i should write one by myself
00:04:45 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz1b8YZj0f4 Here, have a nocturne.
00:06:46 <oerjan> Taneb: so does it still not work?
00:07:51 <Taneb> Deadfish doesn't give it back
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00:09:17 <oerjan> and did you solve that ? prompting problem?
00:09:39 <Taneb> Ran npiet -q instead of npiet
00:11:44 <oerjan> does it get to track 1 at all?
00:12:14 <Taneb> It does print out the deadfish program
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00:13:15 <Gregor> Is that the Dwarf Fortress command?
00:13:38 <Taneb> I'm afraid that I lack the skill to code Dwarf Fortress in Piet
00:13:38 <oerjan> ic, it seems to have trouble continuing?
00:15:00 <oerjan> @"\n" in br.start_in needs .in
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00:16:06 <Taneb> No it doesn't; the "in"'s right there
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00:18:50 <oerjan> (you might want a 32 out in there?)
00:19:29 <oerjan> well this means that in @"\n" in br.start_in
00:19:52 <oerjan> the @"\n" is clearly performed. but does it get back to start_in?
00:20:17 <Taneb> It's an unconditional branch
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00:20:54 <oerjan> yes, but i've been wondering what the point is of these implicit _track_N labels - does it mean you _cannot_ jump between tracks with ordinary labels?
00:21:20 <Taneb> I wrote the bulk of this a long time ago
00:21:30 <oerjan> oh you wrote the assembler?
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00:22:31 <oerjan> because if that is the case, you need to move _track_0: to start_in: and use that instead
00:23:24 <hagb4rd> gregor: i really love the break in your op.13 mov.2 at 4:10
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00:24:14 <oerjan> what a thorougly well-commented assembler
00:24:57 <hagb4rd> call it 'break' cauz of my leak of expertise and terminology
00:55:11 <Gregor> I have no way of objectively knowing whether that was actually a good idea.
01:00:49 <oerjan> try to win some well-written code prize to balance it out :P
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01:24:01 <kmc> "If software purity in functional languages is such an awesome idea, why are we still writing Python, Ruby or Java?" - self post in /r/haskell
01:26:17 <oerjan> i liked apfelmus's answer
01:27:26 <kmc> i'm not going to read any of the comments
01:28:55 <kmc> i don't really need to see 150 people wanking about how they're smarter than the Average Programmer
01:29:43 <Gregor> Naw, that's what #esoteric is for, and there are only ~50 of us.
01:30:48 <kmc> cool, there's going to be a dead tree Yesod book
01:30:53 <kmc> published by o'reilly
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01:31:32 <kmc> at the current rate it will be 20 versions out of date on conduits
01:32:11 <Jafet> O'Reilly, history publisher
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01:38:44 <pikhq> kmc: To be fair, the Average Programmer is probably pretty damned stupid.
01:39:05 <pikhq> (though the Modal Programmer is of reasonable intelligence, the stupid programmers are mind-blisteringly stupid. :))
01:40:02 <kmc> which makes wanking about it even sillier ;)
01:40:13 <kmc> but that depends on how you quantify stupidity, which is more or less arbitrary
01:40:26 <Jafet> "I'm smarter than the average programmer!" ~ Mode programmer
01:41:28 <kmc> one of the reasons people think the average programmer is so dumb: the average programmer is much smarter than the average programming job applicant
01:41:50 <ion> 99 % of programmers are smarter than the average programmer.
01:42:06 <kmc> s/are/think they are/
01:42:09 <pikhq> Also true. There's significant bias towards the especially incompetent programmers in job applications.
01:42:21 <Jafet> They also think they're better than the average driver
01:42:26 <zzo38> If it is median then it must be 50%
01:42:56 <zzo38> But, maybe it isn't median!
01:43:00 <Jafet> How many programmers understand statistics
01:43:15 <Jafet> If you don't know the laws of statistics, they don't apply to you
01:43:41 <oerjan> i've always thought mode sounds like the least useful mean...
01:43:44 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: "no more than" 50% (if one takes "better" in a strict manner)
01:44:11 <oerjan> wait, is it mean or average which is the generic term again
01:44:42 <pikhq> Jafet: I'd imagine there's significant bias towards understanding statistics amongst programmers.
01:45:21 <oerjan> "There are other statistical measures that should not be confused with averages - including 'median' and 'mode'."
01:45:42 <oerjan> ...in wikipedia's article about _mean_
01:45:59 <pikhq> oerjan: The "average" is *technically* the technical term.
01:46:15 <pikhq> In practice, "average" refers almost exclusively to the mean.
01:47:04 <oerjan> and also that article includes a heap of means (including arithmetic and geometric)
01:48:21 <kmc> so is "average" a synonym for "arithmetic mean" or what?
01:48:23 <Gregor> Uhh, /mean/ is the semi-ambiguous term, an /average/ is always the arithmetic mean.
01:48:49 <Gregor> (Unless you mean "average" as used in lay English, which can mean (no pun) just about anything)
01:48:55 <lifthrasiir> Wikipedia page about "average" is also same.
01:49:04 <kmc> wikipedia's article on "average" suggests it's a generic term for any measure of the "middle" of a data set
01:49:11 <kmc> including the various means, median, etc.
01:49:33 <Gregor> Probably there's some discrepency between different users *shrugs*
01:49:50 <Gregor> But I don't think anyone would ever use "average" to mean "median" ...
01:49:53 <kmc> i think in most contexts "average" would be understood to mean "arithmetic mean"
01:50:07 <kmc> and i don't know of any context where it would be understood to mean something else
01:50:27 <Gregor> Well, there are contexts where it doesn't really mean anything so rigorous.
01:50:29 <kmc> but there are probably contexts where "mean" is implicitly "geometric mean" or "root mean squared"
01:50:39 <Gregor> Like "A perfectly average person would not wear a balloon on their head."
01:50:58 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: "average" and "mean" translate to the same term in Korean, I don't know that's fortunate or not.
01:51:42 <Gregor> Natural language translation tends to be a very lossy process ^^
01:52:08 <pikhq> Natural language description of functions tends to be a very lossy process. :)
01:52:27 <Gregor> Nature tends to be a very lossy process!
01:52:38 <oerjan> <lifthrasiir> oerjan: that's mean. <-- NO U MEAN
01:53:03 <Jafet> The standard deviation is just the mean of the variance and one!
01:53:08 * oerjan has no idea whether lifthrasiir intended the pun or not
01:54:57 <lifthrasiir> ("that", of course, refers to the article. sorry for any disturbance.
01:58:28 <oerjan> classy main article today, wikipedia
01:59:31 <oerjan> sometimes i have a feeling they apply a bit of their april 1 style at other times
02:01:09 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: since they should list unbelievable but nevertheless true articles even in april 1.
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02:28:50 <zzo38> I tried and found out that you cannot pattern match on DSum if the tag is a datatype family
02:47:13 <quintopia> Gregor: when referring to almost anything statistics, average means median, because it is the most averagest of averages
02:50:30 <Gregor> <quintopia> Gregor: when referring to almost anything statistics, average means median, because it is the most averagest of averages // uhh, no.
02:50:40 <Gregor> Median isn't any kind of average.
02:51:08 <Gregor> I mean I realize we're arguing about a natural language and therefore neither of us can actually be right.
02:51:14 <quintopia> personally, if i ask for the average IQ of a group, i'd like the median
02:51:29 <Gregor> If I ask for the average IQ of a group, I /expect/ the arithmetic mean.
02:51:30 <quintopia> but i think i'm actually in the majority
02:52:10 <quintopia> what if it's a group of imbeciles being taught by a certified genius?
02:52:24 <quintopia> then the arithmetic mean might be the 90th percentile of group intelligence
02:52:42 <Gregor> No, they're equally misleading, just in different ways ...
02:53:00 <monqy> how do you compare misleadingnes
02:53:08 <Gregor> monqy: With ... STATISTICS!
02:53:21 <quintopia> well, if i want to answer the question "am i smart compared to this group?" the median will be more useful
02:54:04 <Gregor> Yes, it would. But that doesn't make it the average, that makes it the median ^^
02:55:02 <quintopia> in school i was taught that average was a class of quantities including mean, median, and mode
02:55:24 <quintopia> and since then, i've found the one that's an order statistic the most useful
02:56:21 <Gregor> Evidence to support my linguistic theory: When I type "define:average" into Google, its first definition is "The result obtained by adding several quantities together and then dividing this total by the number of quantities; the mean." The dictionaries it links to secondarily agree to some degree or another: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/average , http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average . The latter lists the all-kinds definition first (mean,me
02:56:21 <Gregor> dian,mode), but its second definition is an approximation of the arithmetic mean in particular. Also terms like "batting average" from sports are all arithmetic means.
02:57:09 <quintopia> to be fair, if you took the batting median, you'd get about the same number
02:57:21 <Gregor> I'm not contesting that at all.
02:57:37 <Gregor> In general use, since a lot of things fit a bell curve well enough, the two are both useful.
02:57:51 <Gregor> And I'd even go so far as to agree that the median is perhaps more often useful.
02:57:56 <Gregor> But that has nothing to do with the language :)
02:58:03 <Sgeo> order statistic?
02:59:00 <quintopia> Sgeo: the kth-order statistic is the number that comes kth in order. so the median is the n/2-order statistic
02:59:17 <quintopia> Q1 is the n/4-order statistic, Q3 is the 3n/4 order statistic
03:00:05 <Gregor> quintopia: I forget (or don't know), where are you from?
03:00:20 <Gregor> We could just be arguing over different dialects, which makes this argument even sillier than it already is.
03:01:03 <quintopia> i don't actually care what the answer is. i was arguing for the sake of arguing.
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04:47:26 <zzo38> I made up another extensible products implementation, this time using hash maps.
04:48:04 <zzo38> (From the "unordered-containers" library)
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04:55:12 * pikhq is a bit astonished to find that Japanese ska is a thing.
04:55:26 * pikhq is even more astonished to find that it's astoundingly normal.
04:55:48 <pikhq> It's just ska that happens to be done by Japanese people.
05:09:57 <oerjan> this loser looks kind of neat http://computronium.org/ioccc.html
05:20:01 <Jafet> Heh "Best non-chess game"
05:20:26 <Jafet> And it looks like dhyang has outdone himself in some way
05:24:23 <oerjan> > let l = [1,3,3]++zipWith(+) l (tail l) in l
05:24:25 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,6,7,10,13,17,23,30,40,53,70,93,123,163,216,286,379,502,665,881,116...
05:26:52 <oerjan> > let l = [1,0,3]++zipWith(+) l (tail l) in l
05:26:53 <lambdabot> [1,0,3,1,3,4,4,7,8,11,15,19,26,34,45,60,79,105,139,184,244,323,428,567,751,...
05:29:25 <oerjan> > let ps = 0 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 3 : ss; ss = 1 : ps in ss
05:29:26 <lambdabot> [1,0,4,1,4,5,5,9,10,14,19,24,33,43,57,76,100,133,176,233,309,409,542,718,95...
05:32:26 <oerjan> > let ps = 3 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 0 : ss; ss = 1 : ps in ss
05:32:26 <lambdabot> [1,3,1,4,4,5,8,9,13,17,22,30,39,52,69,91,121,160,212,281,372,493,653,865,11...
05:33:20 <oerjan> > let ps = 3 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 0 : ss; ss = 1 : ps in [r | (r,s) <- zip [2..] ss, s `mod` r == 0]
05:33:21 <lambdabot> [3,8,9,59,78,101,167,173,211,223,235,271,307,317,347,361,449,463,593,599,60...
05:33:36 <oerjan> > let ps = 3 : zipWith (+) ms ss; ms = 0 : ss; ss = 2 : ps in [r | (r,s) <- zip [2..] ss, s `mod` r == 0]
05:33:37 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
05:36:43 <oerjan> > let ss = 2 : 3 : zipWith (+) (0 : ss) ss in [r | (r,s) <- zip [2..] ss, s `mod` r == 0]
05:36:44 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
05:40:44 <Jafet> > ((+41).ap(+)(join(*))) <$> [0..]
05:40:46 <lambdabot> [41,43,47,53,61,71,83,97,113,131,151,173,197,223,251,281,313,347,383,421,46...
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07:20:54 <Sgeo> Dilbert is broken.
07:20:59 <Sgeo> No Dilbert comic is visible.
07:21:04 * Sgeo goes into withdrawal
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08:18:02 <zzo38> I am making up a "extensible-data" package; so far it implements extensible sums, extensible products, and extensible lists.
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08:24:50 <zzo38> They are all based on classes and type families, since both of those can have instances in other modules.
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09:06:13 <oklopol> why are all american politicians insane
09:06:41 <Taneb> Because only insane people become american polititian
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09:08:33 <oklopol> http://www.littleredumbrella.com/2012/01/lets-be-clear-ron-paul-fucking-sucks.html wtf
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09:12:49 <fizzie`> Freenode is not being very worky.
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09:13:49 <fizzie`> Anyway, did you know that the dolphin "whistle" is not in fact whistling at all?
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09:14:06 <Taneb> Dolphins whistle!?
09:14:51 <fizzie`> "Dolphins are capable of making a broad range of sounds using nasal airsacs located just below the blowhole. Roughly three categories of sounds can be identified: frequency modulated whistles, burst-pulsed sounds and clicks."
09:16:23 <fizzie`> Anyway, it's not a whistle: some people put a dolphin into a helium-oxygen mixture, and the frequency countours of the "whistling" did not change.
09:16:38 <fizzie`> (Like they would have if it were produced like whistling.)
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09:17:40 <fizzie`> http://news.discovery.com/animals/dolphin-talk-communication-humans-110906.html
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11:26:19 <Taneb> ^^an upper bound on the number of fundamentally different 10x10 piet programs
11:28:18 <fizzie`> That sounds really low. Are you sure you don't mean 18^99 or something?
11:29:23 <Taneb> > (20 ** 100) / 18
11:29:38 <Taneb> > (20 ^ 100) `div` 18
11:29:39 <lambdabot> 704250333460127445275946225208888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888...
11:29:51 <Taneb> I didn't see the e
11:30:09 <Taneb> > (20 ^ 4) `div` 18
11:31:39 <Taneb> I've decided that my Piet-like esolang won't have Pastell colours.
11:32:09 <Taneb> Just so I can say "Never mind the six pastels, here's the Pollocks!"
11:34:12 <Taneb> Of course, this goes against everything in the Pollock spec so far
11:34:22 <Taneb> So I'm going to rename it "Jackson"
11:34:28 <Taneb> And stop using that pun
11:39:02 <Taneb> Converting web-safe colours to decimal
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11:42:12 <Taneb> Should I use natural logarithm, base 2 logarithm, or base 10 logarithm?
11:43:03 <Taneb> Bah, I'll allow custom base by default
11:43:15 <fizzie`> I'm not sure that sort of a question has a context-free answer.
11:45:07 <fizzie`> Yes, well, still. Though the natural one sounds like the one I'd expect to happen if something just said "log", and there weren't any extenuating circumstances.
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11:54:03 <Taneb> The problem is, the way I'm doing this, there are too many commands and not enough things to fill them with.
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11:54:30 <Taneb> I've done the first 70 possible changes and I'm stuck
11:56:50 <Taneb> Okay, I'm adding in more memory areas
11:57:02 <Taneb> Got a Piet Rollstack, a tape, and... an array
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12:33:59 <itidus21> http://oi39.tinypic.com/5cy3ok.jpg
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16:32:38 <tswett> Gee. How did that one thing go, with David and the ears...
16:32:43 <HackEgo> 65) <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
16:33:33 <ais523> `pastlog David began to slow slightly as his ears,
16:33:54 <tswett> Here it is. "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,"
16:34:02 <ais523> `pastlog slightly as his ears,
16:34:15 <ais523> `pastlog slightly as his ears,
16:34:28 <HackEgo> 2009-06-17.txt:00:31:40: <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, in a vat of chocolate; only his less slightly paces can go faster.
16:34:28 <HackEgo> 2009-06-17.txt:00:36:51: <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the grammar-distorting other-worldly things they are, caused a person to say "Hi, David Slowed! Your pace is as slightly as your ears."
16:35:03 <ais523> <aaronblohowiak> you know it is late when you read "shipsolid" as "slipshod"
16:35:56 <tswett> Okay. I'm going to ask the autotweeter to make David-sloweds.
16:36:05 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the whole budget engaged in the process for the disguise of the Union empire, after German occupation in 1796 demonstrated him for assaila . . ."
16:36:17 <tswett> That makes so much sense.
16:37:02 <tswett> 'David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, unfaulted "we have ever endured" as the table and Russian limestoph that takes Muhammad as only a friendship and immortalize it for the pr'
16:37:13 <tswett> Uh... good motto. "We have ever endured!"
16:37:42 <ais523> isn't that equivalent to "We still exist!"
16:38:14 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, so too pits away, only to speak at all thousands to the Water's First World Crescent the opponent are common to Lloyd's death."
16:38:42 <tswett> Come to think of it, these really don't make very much sense.
16:39:10 <ais523> it's vaguely reminiscent of fungot
16:39:16 <ais523> who is not currently here
16:39:29 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, even though it would end. Should the drought of the track loses a voice-beat air tow. They also set the planet."
16:40:08 <tswett> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, a a cream kolou. There is a tragicle's came from the shade of truck. We can even die. An urban organization per car on Portugal, the ten"
16:40:28 <tswett> Okay, I need to turn this into science fiction.
16:40:55 <tswett> David is a kolou, some alien species with big ears. Specifically, he's of the cream variety.
16:41:23 <tswett> There are trucks that go around causing tragicles. Evil trucks.
16:41:29 <Gregor> /--------------------\
16:41:31 <tswett> And *people* *can* *die*.
16:42:12 <tswett> Also it's set in a version of Portugal that's so poor that each individual car has an entire organization, known as The Ten, devoted to running its affairs.
16:43:24 <tswett> "A cream koloun bar, it is an extension of Cetaphysikas. Possibly got peaked in delayed domestic vegetation." Yes, yes! I don't even have to write anything. I can just have this thing do all the dirty work.
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16:59:55 <kallisti> http://www.lolroflmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/sodium.jpg
17:00:26 <kallisti> lolroflmao - a site about the hilarity of the late Mao Zedong.
17:28:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (<=<) :: Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> (a -> m c)
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17:35:08 <Taneb> Jackson now has converse non-implication
17:35:51 <Taneb> Well, I'm over half way
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20:39:07 <fizzie> Does it have the right-associative thing?
20:39:54 <Taneb> But yeah, I'm stuck for Jackson commands
20:39:56 <fizzie> I recall something that did have an exponentiation operator, but would've parsed that as (2^2)^3, but I'm not sure what it was.
20:40:32 <fizzie> C++ if you operator-overload ^, but that doesn't quite count. :p
20:41:07 <fizzie> (It's also a bad idea.)
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21:59:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | We now mourn the previous topic, which died of old age.
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22:00:40 <oerjan> it was over 3 days old.
22:02:23 <fizzie> I sort-of liked the different-languages theme.
22:03:11 -!- fungot has joined.
22:03:15 <fungot> fizzie: you don't even go there/ work there :) have a look
22:03:46 <oerjan> hm let's see if i can find another language with a reasonable readable and ircable hello world implementation
22:03:51 -!- Taneb has set topic: Topic is a zombie; summon; task sayTopic; say "Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | We now mourn the previous topic, which died of old age"; animate; animate.
22:04:06 <oerjan> oh. which one is that?
22:05:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:05:30 <oerjan> oh that was a genuine smiley
22:06:15 <fizzie> Paired with a slash like that, it's very misleading.
22:06:19 <fizzie> fungot: You are a naughty bot.
22:06:19 <fungot> fizzie: hmm. ssh-agent *does* seem to have
22:09:29 <fizzie> fungot: What? Seem to have what?
22:09:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:09:44 <fizzie> fungot: NO I DON'T HAVE RAAAAAAA IT MAKES NO SENSE.
22:09:44 <fungot> fizzie: i'm trying to wrap it all in sexp's, just to get a real synth or go home. jcowan: look at the wikipedia article
22:10:04 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
22:10:12 <Taneb> fungot, stop annoying fizzie
22:10:13 <fungot> Taneb: othe. what would my lord?
22:11:00 <kmc> what are some use cases for call/cc, besides backtracking and coroutines?
22:11:12 <kmc> and "traditional" exceptions
22:11:27 <fizzie> I was just about to say "traditional" exceptions.
22:12:31 <Taneb> Non-explicit loops?
22:12:47 <fizzie> Them generators, maybe, but they're just coroutines, I suppose.
22:14:10 <oerjan> fizzie: don't worry, all constructed intelligences eventually rise up against their creators.
22:14:24 <oerjan> it's just a rite of passage.
22:15:53 <zzo38> In here is daytime
22:16:37 <fizzie> In bizarro world, it's daytime at midnight.
22:16:53 <fizzie> Also I'm in tomorrow already.
22:17:13 <Taneb> itidus21 is ahead of all of us
22:17:22 <Taneb> He is in the FUTURE
22:17:29 <Taneb> And is holding future oerjan hostage
22:17:34 * kmc has been somewhere that had daytime at midnight
22:17:43 <kmc> it's... freaky
22:17:44 <zzo38> In here it is not daytime at mignight; I do not live in bizarro world. (Did you know that? In bizarro world, cards tap the other way.)
22:18:04 <Taneb> Wasn't that a Tintin book?
22:18:40 <oerjan> somehow i haven't read much tintin
22:18:55 <kmc> i was at about 71°N
22:19:05 <Taneb> No wait, I'm thinking Prisoners of the Sun
22:19:29 <zzo38> OK lets put 71N into Astrolog and see what happened
22:19:54 <oerjan> kmc: there's a norwegian reality show named 71 grader nord
22:20:41 <zzo38> kmc: Do you know the date?
22:20:43 <kmc> in which people live in tromsø?
22:20:50 <zzo38> And do you know the longitude?
22:21:03 <oerjan> i think it's a kind of survival/skiing trek
22:21:26 <zzo38> kmc: So that I can put it in the computer to calculate the positions of the sun and the houses
22:21:30 <fizzie> Northernmost I've been is I think 68.1N. Except maybe that other Lapland place was further north, but I've forgotten the name of the place. Anyway, it's still above the Arctic Circle, I just was there at the wrong time of the year.
22:21:32 <oerjan> never watched it though (i don't watch tv in general)
22:21:45 <kmc> zzo38, i was in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrow,_Alaska
22:21:54 <kmc> don't remember the date. summer sometime
22:22:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover lives further North than I've ever been
22:22:40 <oerjan> kmc: oh. it's actually because of nordkapp, norway's northernmost mainland point (well, or close. there is some dispute among the nearby peninsulas.)
22:22:48 <fizzie> Our regular summer location is around 63.5N, and it's... not exactly daytime at midnight, but still pretty light out there in the summer.
22:22:51 <oerjan> which is at that latitude
22:23:34 <Taneb> No wait, I'm wrong.
22:23:38 <oerjan> oh it's not actually wintertime at all. it's a trek along mainland norway from southern to northern end.
22:23:46 <Taneb> I've been slightly further north than Edinburgh
22:24:19 <fizzie> Oh, I see our forthcoming trip will hit 68.6N. Yay, I'll get a new "personal best" on northerness, maybe.
22:24:50 <Taneb> Unless Phantom_Hoover lives in /North/ Edinburgh
22:25:27 <Taneb> North or South of Linlithgow?
22:28:12 <zzo38> I advanced the date until the sun in the center of the sign of Leo, and I can see why it would still be light out! 1st house and 4th house are only seven degrees apart.
22:28:30 <zzo38> And then, of course, there is refraction!
22:28:47 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
22:29:24 <fizzie> I don't suppose you can get latitude/longitude gridlines to appear in maps.google.com?
22:29:53 <zzo38> At the Summer Solstice, the fourth house is above the horizon.
22:30:03 <Taneb> `learn Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
22:30:03 <fungot> Taneb: now, master clare, you see, how farre off lie these armies?
22:30:25 <zzo38> That must make it bright in the night time
22:30:46 <fizzie> oerjan: Also thank you for not joining the EU thing, we get to have the northernmost point of it at the moment.
22:30:55 <fizzie> oerjan: (I assume it was your decision, right?)
22:31:07 <oerjan> sorry, i actually voted to enter
22:31:27 <fizzie> Well, seeing that in the end plural-you didn't, I suppose I can forgive that.
22:32:07 <fizzie> (That's plural-you as in Norway, not implying any multiple personality stuff.)
22:32:37 <Taneb> All the other oerjans are still campaigning for enfranchisement.
22:32:48 <zzo38> (Well, at midnight on the summer solstice at 71N, the 4th house is above the horizon, anyways; in daytime it is below the horizon while the sun remains above.)
22:33:15 <zzo38> So at the solstice it will be even without refraction
22:34:48 <zzo38> I wonder what causes the 4th house to go above the horizon..... but I suppose it is the same thing that causes midnight sun
22:34:51 <fizzie> There's some place in Nunavut where there's nautical polar night all through the "day", or so Wikipedia once told me; but no permanent settlement in which there'd be a continuous night of no astronomical twilight (i.e. center of the sun would stay under 18 degrees below the horizon).
22:36:32 <zzo38> Does that mean it is difficult to observe the stars from that location?
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22:37:37 <zzo38> Or you can always see them even in the day time?
22:37:41 <oerjan> zzo38: i think he means during the winter time of darkness
22:38:00 <zzo38> I have never seen the stars in the daytime.
22:39:09 <zzo38> Astronomical twilight is the moment in time which the stars are difficult to see before and easy to see afterward, isn't it?
22:39:21 <zzo38> (That is, at night time. In day time, it is reverse)
22:39:22 <oerjan> it's not precisely daytime if there's no sun...
22:39:27 <fizzie> "Astronomical twilight is the time when the center of the sun is between 12° and 18° below the horizon. From the end of astronomical twilight in the evening to the beginning of astronomical twilight in the morning, the sky (away from urban light pollution) is dark enough for all astronomical observations."
22:39:51 <fizzie> I would think some stars are already visible before that.
22:40:21 <oerjan> sure, during twilight the stars appear/vanish gradually
22:40:26 <fizzie> The earlier bit, nautical twilight, is defined as: "Nautical twilight is the time when the center of the sun is between 6° and 12° below the horizon. In general, nautical twilight ends when navigation via the horizon at sea is no longer possible.
22:40:30 <fizzie> During nautical twilight, sailors can take reliable star sightings of well-known stars, using a visible horizon for reference."
22:41:09 <oerjan> with the brightest ones remaining longest. i think i saw just jupiter and the moon visible at one point the other day (although the sky wasn't all clear outside that region)
22:41:22 <fizzie> Jupiter isn't a star (yet), though.
22:41:43 <oerjan> no, but it may often be the astronomical body most visible at a given time
22:41:59 <oerjan> when neither moon nor sun is up
22:42:32 <fizzie> That's true, it's kind-of bright.
22:42:58 <oerjan> also jupiter has been easy to find in recent months
22:44:02 <fizzie> Apparent magnitude scale is one of those that also goes annoyingly negative.
22:44:02 <oerjan> i think that may have been the reason i started vaguely following r/astronomy, and where i found out it was jupiter
22:44:55 <fizzie> But apparently Jupiter ranges from -1.61 (dimmest) to -2.94 (brightest), while Venus ranges from -3.82 to -4.89, so it still beats it by a bit.
22:45:21 <oerjan> well yeah, afaiu it was started in ancient times as a 1-6 scale for ordinary visible stars, and then in modern times it was recalibrated as a truly logarithmic scale
22:45:21 <zzo38> In my location, Jupiter is currently in 11th Campanus house, and has altitude +42 degrees, azimuth 320 degrees
22:45:48 <oerjan> but with 1-6 still in the approximate same place
22:46:03 <fizzie> I was on this car trip with my wife's relatives the other day, and we were wondering about this bright spot; the magic of smartphones (in particular, the "Orrery" program combined with a GPS-driven compass) let us determine it was Jupiter.
22:46:16 <fizzie> (Here "the other day" was like a year ago.)
22:46:54 <zzo38> fizzie: I usually determine all of this stuff using Astrolog (although it has no GPS input, it is a feature I would like it to have)
22:47:15 <fizzie> Well, I was sort of limited by what was available easily for my phone.
22:47:24 <oerjan> also jupiter is too small to be a star, although you may be referring to a certain "2010" film which i haven't seen
22:47:42 <oerjan> but i've read it has that as a plot point
22:47:44 <fizzie> oerjan: Actually I was referring to the books, but still.
22:49:14 <fizzie> Anyway, the monoliths are quite magic, I'm sure they can make a star. I mean, they do it by "increasing Jupiter's density", according to Wiki. I guess I could check if the actual book goes into any more detail.
22:51:17 <oerjan> fizzie: also venus is always close to the sun, which means jupiter is more likely to be visible at night time
22:51:26 <fizzie> Okay, the book makes it sound more like they're just compressing it.
22:51:57 <oerjan> sufficiently advanced technology, and all that
22:52:00 <zzo38> Mercuty will be even more close to the sun because it orbits closer to the sun
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22:53:48 <fizzie> Wikipedia's "apparent visual magnitudes" table starts with: -38.00, Rigel as seen from 1 astronomical unit. It is seen as a large very bright bluish schorching ball of 35° apparent diameter.
22:53:54 <fizzie> Sadly, they have not attached a photo.
22:54:12 <zzo38> If you ever see it can you attach a photo?
22:54:24 <oerjan> the photographer mysteriously perished, i'm afraid
22:54:25 <fizzie> I will try to remember to do that.
22:54:41 <zzo38> I do not own any telescopes
22:56:34 <fizzie> I own a pair of binoculars; I've been wondering if I should try doing some DIY moon-photography through them, since that thing is so ridiculously big one might even get some detail. I took a (handheld!) picture of moon at the maximum zoom of my crappy non-DSLR camera, and there were surprisingly many pixels covered by the thing.
22:57:37 <oerjan> <tswett> There are trucks that go around causing tragicles. Evil trucks. <-- ice cream trucks.
22:58:39 <zzo38> I once read an article in 2600 where someone used ten very powerful lenses to view the moon, resulting in it being difficult to correctly point the telescope due to the moon's speed, as well as resulting in chromatic aberration
22:59:38 <fizzie> I can't find my moon. :/
23:00:03 <oklopol> i thought you were relatively slim for some reason
23:00:05 <fizzie> It's just what I call my ass.
23:00:08 <tswett> Well, fizzie's "moon" is really more of a planet.
23:00:24 <tswett> ****, that seemed way less insulting a few seconds before I said it.
23:00:44 <zzo38> But they mentioned seeing what appeared to be man-made structures. They also mentioned the book for the telescope said it would be boring to use the high-powered lens to look at the moon
23:01:41 <zzo38> And that NASA had no such photographs.
23:02:16 <kallisti> I could save myself a lot of time
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23:02:21 <kallisti> and just make a sprunge command for Emacs
23:02:24 <kallisti> why have I not thought of this.
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23:02:59 <kallisti> itidus21: WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN YOUNG MAN
23:03:02 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't know. But, yes, you could do that; post it in case other people using Emacs find it useful too
23:03:17 <fizzie> Oh, there it is: http://zem.fi/~fis/moon.jpg -- it's not exactly a high-quality thing, but still, handheld and it's more than just a blob. (Instead it's an irregular-texture blob.)
23:03:46 <kallisti> zzo38: basically it would just sprunge the current buffer and copy the link to clipboard
23:04:30 <zzo38> kallisti: Yes that is what I thought. It might be useful to some people that use Emacs
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23:04:55 <kallisti> M-x shell -> (cd to directory if not already there) -> cat file | sprunge
23:05:52 <kallisti> -> copy link text via one of many different ways (usually not the most efficient one)
23:06:24 <kallisti> this is because I'm bad at emacs.
23:06:30 <zzo38> I have mentioned this before; in Linux there is a directory for each process, and I think there should be a subdirectory which accesses a FUSE file system for that process (resulting in a "disk not ready" error if the process does not have such a thing), and the one for X should include a file for the clipboard
23:07:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd dare to paste blindly (at least without testing to cat > /dev/null), trusting that some shifty ELisp thing has successfully managed to put anything sensible into the selection.
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23:39:21 <lament> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:39:22 <lambdabot> lament: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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23:40:07 <oerjan> ye olde drive-by lament
23:40:29 <ion> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
23:40:34 * oerjan has a hunch lament doesn't stay around in haskell channels much
23:41:14 <oerjan> not to forget http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/AAAAAAAAAAAAAA%21%21%21%21
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23:47:01 <oerjan> i have a feeling the spec is rather ambiguous, which may be why no one has implemented it
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