←2012-02-13 2012-02-14 2012-02-15→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:50 <elliott> OK, here goes nothin'
00:01:22 <elliott> 413 Request Entity Too Large
00:01:25 <elliott> command line time
00:01:35 <Sgeo> damageinc is now in #jesus
00:02:02 <elliott> :D
00:02:14 <pikhq> Hey, somewhere where his knowledge level is appropriate.
00:04:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:05:24 <elliott> ais523: who /designed/ MediaWiki?
00:06:55 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:07:00 <ais523> elliott: by committee
00:07:34 <elliott> I was hoping for "nobody"
00:10:05 <elliott> I wish importDump.php had a progress bar
00:10:53 -!- aloril_ has joined.
00:11:36 <elliott> ais523: do you have an easy way of getting lists of all deleted pages?
00:12:07 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
00:12:18 <ais523> you could page through Special:Log/delete
00:12:23 <ais523> but it's absolutely full of spam
00:12:26 <elliott> right
00:12:37 <elliott> I suppose the database dump is enough for those
00:12:43 <elliott> it's not like many of them are worth keeping
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00:18:10 <elliott> THIS IS SO SLOW
00:20:04 <elliott> ais523: the good news is, it seems to be importing perfectly well:
00:20:12 <elliott> the bad news is, IT'S SO SLOW
00:24:06 <Sgeo> Hmm.
00:24:17 <Sgeo> Would I be able to sign up as Chris_Pressey?
00:24:34 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, if not for the fact that I'll import the user table once I get it from Graue
00:24:38 <elliott> (on the live site)
00:24:43 <elliott> and /then/ import all the pages
00:24:44 <Sgeo> Ah, ok
00:24:53 <elliott> and /then/ fix the main page and write an ascension address
00:24:58 <elliott> and /then/ make it live
00:25:00 <Sgeo> lol
00:25:18 <Sgeo> (Unless you did actually go off-topic and seriously won BN)
00:25:25 <elliott> i didn't
00:25:28 <elliott> but it's a nice name
00:37:36 -!- aloril has joined.
00:39:26 <elliott> it's still going
00:45:39 -!- quintopia has joined.
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00:51:15 <elliott> Still going...
00:56:42 <elliott> underload, unlambda, user:monqy, talk:main page, univar, talk:unlambda, main pafgh, Main Pasdfsdf‎, user:ehird, esolang:sandbox
00:59:48 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:00:35 <monqy> good pasdfsdfs
01:00:53 <monqy> good pafghs too
01:10:45 -!- augur has joined.
01:13:49 <elliott> Incredibly fascinating evaluation of shopping cart software package prepared by well-known soccer professional or a person known as exact same as that soccer player.
01:14:34 <Sgeo> Wat.
01:14:45 <elliott>
01:14:48 <elliott> the best spam page title ever
01:15:33 <kallisti> for a shitty webcomic, xkcd sure is quotable.
01:19:15 * elliott actually laughed at the latest one.
01:20:18 <kallisti> having just read it a few moments ago
01:20:19 <kallisti> so did I.
01:20:48 <Gregor> OK, I laughed at the title text.
01:22:23 <elliott> i laughed at the hand-staple thing but the title text was good too
01:22:32 <elliott> could have easily been an early-days xkcd really
01:22:39 <elliott> although it was a bit too long
01:26:17 <elliott> hahaha
01:26:21 <elliott> MediaWiki just told me I have new messages
01:26:23 <elliott> because my talk page just got imported
01:28:16 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:28:18 <kallisti> ha
01:28:44 <zzo38> Ah.
01:29:06 <kallisti> elliott: we could switch the wiki over to Gopher, thus removing spam as a result of zzo38 being the only user.
01:29:23 <kallisti> (has this joke been used before. it seems so easy.)
01:31:15 <monqy> something about hackiki
01:32:11 <elliott> import done
01:32:24 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't really work for a wiki; it works for read but it doesn't work well for editing pages. You could use HTTP PUT, FTP, Plan 9 Protocol, or something. You could still use Gopher for read-only if you want to, though.
01:32:28 <elliott> took about an hour and a half
01:34:50 <Sgeo> damageinc called me a moron
01:35:31 <zzo38> SSH is another way. HTTP GET/POST, SMTP, and NNTP would have a lot of spam messages
01:38:02 <elliott> Sgeo: you mean he's... not civil?
01:41:58 <Gregor> `log -\*-.*topic.*international hub
01:42:18 <elliott>
01:42:20 <Gregor> Whoops, wrong X_X
01:42:25 <Gregor> `log -\!-.*topic.*international hub
01:42:25 <elliott> OK, this has all the esolang wiki articles
01:42:43 <HackEgo> No output.
01:42:57 <HackEgo> 2008-06-30.txt:20:51:05: -!- ais523 changed the topic of #esoteric to: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric language design, development and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
01:43:08 <Gregor> Pfff, so boring.
01:43:14 <Gregor> What, elliott's here?
01:43:31 <elliott> :'(
01:43:56 <Gregor> I have?
01:44:02 <Gregor> *hyuk*
01:44:30 <elliott> Category: Pages with broken file links
01:44:32 <elliott> Whoa.
01:44:33 <elliott> Magic.
01:47:56 <elliott> Ah. The dump isn't quite complete.
01:48:01 <elliott> For instance, it doesn't include redirects.
01:48:16 <elliott> Well, "moved pages", I suspect.
01:48:43 <elliott> Hmm... I wonder why.
01:49:46 * Sgeo thinks he wants a distro that supports KDE well, and is looking at OpenSUSE
01:50:31 <Sgeo> This "Upstream" thing looks cool
01:50:50 <Sgeo> Except for brokenness
01:57:02 <Sgeo> Hmm
01:57:05 <elliott>
01:57:11 <elliott> So useful.
01:58:17 <Sgeo> Weren't people scared of KDE4?
01:58:28 <Sgeo> Now it seems to be more accepted. Might the same happy to Unity or GNOME Shell?
02:01:38 <elliott> nobody likes or uses kde4
02:02:04 <Gregor> Mainly because it's terrible.
02:02:07 <monqy> whats kde4
02:02:18 <elliott> @tell ais523 The import finished; the result basically works, except that pages that are redirects have mysteriously not been imported.
02:02:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:03:01 <Sgeo> WTF am I looking at
02:03:08 <elliott> what
02:03:16 <Sgeo> "GoogleChrome OS X" does not seem to have Chrome or Chromium, and looks nothing like OS X
02:03:29 <monqy> what is googlechrome osx
02:03:29 <Sgeo> http://susestudio.com/a/LkcUZJ/googlechrome-os-x
02:03:59 <Sgeo> It's butt ugly to boot
02:04:12 <Sgeo> It's using some sort of Win9x GNOME theme or something
02:05:27 <Gregor> Could it be ...
02:05:28 <Gregor> TROLLERY
02:09:04 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
02:09:07 <Friendship> How is this nick available.
02:09:58 <monqy> hi
02:09:58 <Jafet> It is magic.
02:10:04 <Friendship> Jafet: 'struth.
02:10:09 <monqy> `welcome
02:10:14 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
02:11:46 <Friendship> Jafet: I /might/ have been trying to register FriendshipIsMagic (only to realize that the reason it was unregistered is that the nick is too long) before noticing this one was free >_> <_<
02:11:59 -!- Frooxius_ has joined.
02:12:29 <Jafet> I thought it was unregistered because the troll that used it was klined
02:12:39 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:12:42 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius.
02:17:01 -!- Frooxius_ has joined.
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02:18:58 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius.
02:20:44 * Sgeo learns of something called Illumination Software Creator
02:22:15 <Sgeo> "This trial version of Illumination Software reator is fully functional but limited to 10 "Blocks" of functionality per project. Purchasing a license from our secure online store removes this limitation."
02:22:33 <Friendship> lol
02:22:43 <Friendship> I'll bet the resultant software is of enormously high quality.
02:23:38 <Sgeo> Is it even TC?
02:24:42 <Sgeo> It has conditionals and loops
02:24:57 <Sgeo> If the number variables are bignums... hmm
02:25:07 <tswett> elliott: yes, I am the reason we are not "Esolang: The Free Encyclopedia".
02:28:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
02:29:42 <elliott> tswett: Exactly.
02:29:44 <elliott> tswett: Eff you.
02:30:20 <tswett> I was younger than you at the time.
02:30:37 -!- Friendship has changed nick to Gregor.
02:32:06 <Sgeo> tswett, wait, what?
02:32:45 <tswett> I was younger than elliott at the time.
02:32:48 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
02:32:57 <elliott> But then tswett grew older than me.
02:33:01 <elliott> I hate it when people surpass me in age.
02:33:07 <tswett> I know!
02:33:10 <Friendship> Yeesh, it's like you people don't undestand relativity at all.
02:33:19 <Friendship> (You people = Sgeo)
02:33:20 <tswett> Though I find that usually it happens the other way.
02:33:28 <tswett> People who used to be older than me are suddenly younger than me.
02:33:39 <tswett> In fact, I understand that this is more common than the other way around.
02:34:08 * Sgeo wants to know what the bit about "This is why we wre not Esolang: The Free Encyclopedia" is about
02:37:00 <tswett> Sgeo: I changed some interface page from "The Free Encyclopedia" to "Weirder than You", apparently.
02:37:13 <calamari> so I'm curious if Gregor has been going on about ponies for a while, or if I was the catalyst
02:37:14 <Sgeo> o.O
02:37:37 <tswett> MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle, in fact.
02:37:51 <tswett> I'm probably still an administrator on Esolang, in fact.
02:38:02 <tswett> I think I remember my password, but I'm not going to bother logging in.
02:39:03 <elliott> tswett: Good thing I'm not importing the MediaWiki namespace!
02:39:21 <tswett> My most recent edit was 2009. It was the only edit I made that yeah. I mean, that reah.
02:45:57 * Sgeo lols at something called WinLin
02:55:55 <elliott> Friendship: How did your Whose Line scoring go
03:02:19 <Friendship> elliott: I got a bit bored of the show after season 2, giving it a brief hiatus
03:02:44 <elliott> What were the totals?
03:04:06 <Friendship> elliott: I'm currently dealing with a technological disaster regarding students hypersubmitting at the last minute to an overloaded system, so I'm not willing to go drag up that spreadsheet ...
03:04:15 <Friendship> But Brady was still in the lead, followed by Mochrie.
03:04:46 <monqy> hypersubmitting, eh
03:08:50 <Friendship> /HYPERSUBMITTING/
03:14:38 <kallisti> does anyone know of a plugin that allows you to embed Unicode characters in irssi input via a subset of LaTeX or something?
03:15:14 <kallisti> or some other alternative that makes Unicode easy?
03:16:02 <pikhq> Trust me, hardly anything is going to make input of all of Unicode anything. The question is, what subset do you wish to emit?
03:16:58 <kallisti> maths
03:17:51 <elliott> kallisti: compose key
03:18:04 <kallisti> help how learn
03:18:14 <elliott> jfgi
03:18:18 <kallisti> wat
03:19:06 <monqy> jfgi
03:21:00 <kallisti> Let n ∈ Z. Prove that 2 | (n⁴ - 3) if and only if 4 | (n² + 3).
03:21:05 * kallisti facedesks.
03:22:18 <kallisti> the main annoyance is the cases thanks to the biconditional. THEY GIVE ME NO USEFUL THEOREMS TO USE.
03:22:23 <kallisti> so I just have to do it with cases. -_-
03:22:50 <elliott> have you tried
03:22:53 <elliott> proving it both ways instead
03:24:30 <kallisti> that's the same thing
03:24:36 <kallisti> the two cases
03:24:41 <kallisti> are the both ways.
03:25:39 * kallisti is facedesking because of the tediousness not because he doesn't know how to prove it. :P
03:27:30 <pikhq> That seems pretty simple, though perhaps slightly tedious.
03:27:49 <kallisti> yes I'm just complaining for no reason.
03:29:47 <elliott> @tell oerjan By the way, [[Slashes]] will be movable to [[///]] on my server setup, like you wanted (
03:29:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:33:26 <kallisti> my professor is apparently bothered by the re-use of quantified variables in other contexts.
03:33:28 <elliott> OK, TODO is now: Figure out preferences weirdness, automation, server, Graue. ... which is, uh, the same as it was last time.
03:33:33 <kallisti> but, thankfully, he allows it.
03:33:56 <kallisti> i.e. using the same variable name in a different quantifier elsewhere.
03:34:11 * kallisti has no problem with that.
03:34:27 <kallisti> in fact I'm not sure I understand the problem. >_>
03:41:25 <pikhq> It's probably much less of a problem for people with coding experience than most.
03:41:52 <pikhq> You just don't think much about scoping outside of that context.
03:42:04 <kallisti> yes that's what I was thinking actually.
03:42:18 <kallisti> I was just thinking "oh it's just a local scope no big deal."
03:43:43 <pikhq> Also, elliott, are you a permanent guy again? :)
03:44:51 <pikhq> Regardless. Whoo, Wiki work.
03:44:58 <elliott> Probably not, I'm just ostensibly working on the wiki while actually sitting here procrastinating.
03:58:16 <pikhq> Such procrastination.
03:58:36 <Friendship> He's trying to maintain the obviously-beneficial rule that you can't both be the wiki maintainer and actually be present in #esoteric .
03:58:39 <Friendship> That would be terrible X_X
03:59:23 <pikhq> XD
04:00:06 <elliott> Friendship: 'cuz "/msg elliott" is the most difficult sequence in the world to type out.
04:00:36 <Sgeo> /msg elliottt
04:00:37 <Sgeo> Dangit
04:01:25 <pikhq> /msg ellɨoṫṫ
04:04:11 <elliott> oh, the other entry in the TODO is to figure out why redirects aren't being imported
04:04:12 <elliott> and fix it
04:07:10 <Friendship> elliott: Your logic is so flawless it boggles my mind
04:07:43 <Friendship> Seriously though, how was Friendship not a taken nick?
04:07:46 <Friendship> Even ignoring MLP.
04:08:12 <elliott> Friendship: I could say the same about your logic :P
04:08:20 <Friendship> Also free: Friendly
04:10:11 <zzo38> Hay! Don't cross the "i"s and dot the "t"s!
04:10:43 <elliott> P.S. I fixed the formatting of
04:10:49 <elliott> Which is now not redirecting again, gaah
04:10:55 <elliott> I think it's APC messing it up
04:11:21 <pikhq> zzo38: So, don'l dol lhe ıs and don'l cross lhe ls?
04:11:46 <elliott> "What year was X created?" "What year was X created in?"
04:11:48 <elliott> which is more correct?
04:13:43 <myndzi> > don't end sentence on preposition
04:13:44 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `don't'Not in scope: `end'Not in scope: `sentence'Not in scop...
04:14:11 <myndzi> you might write, "In what year.."
04:14:18 <elliott> myndzi: up with which etc.
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04:14:55 <monqy> what does correct matter
04:15:35 <elliott> by "correct" i actually mean "which sounds best"
04:16:07 <myndzi> "In what year was X created?"
04:16:10 <myndzi> sounds best to me
04:16:11 <myndzi> :)
04:16:49 <elliott> sounds like a quiz show :P
04:23:36 -!- H3LLB0Y has joined.
04:24:09 <elliott> `welcome H3LLB0Y
04:24:13 <HackEgo> H3LLB0Y: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:24:18 <H3LLB0Y> morning :D
04:24:22 <H3LLB0Y> thanks yall!
04:24:51 <H3LLB0Y> i have no idea what an esoteric language is btw lol :P
04:24:58 <monqy> `? esoteric
04:25:02 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
04:25:33 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, do you know what a programming language is?
04:25:43 <H3LLB0Y> HackEgo: you be trolling! :P
04:25:47 <monqy> and do you know what an esoteric is
04:26:12 <Sgeo> A programming language is (usually) a language that humans can write and read in, even if with some difficulty, and that computers can understand.
04:26:15 <H3LLB0Y> Sgeo: yea man sure :P well, not the definition exactly, but i can program in python and c++ abit and some java :D
04:26:21 <Sgeo> (Some languages don't fit that mold exactly)
04:26:30 <Sgeo> Anyways, an esoteric language is a language not intended for practical use.
04:26:42 <H3LLB0Y> ah like a pisstake :P
04:26:49 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: if you're looking for the english language meaning of "esoteric", the channel HackEgo mentioned is the appropriate place
04:26:50 <Sgeo> Have you heard of Brainfuck? That's a classic example of an esoteric programming language.
04:27:08 <H3LLB0Y> ah yep lol yea ok i understand :D
04:27:22 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: nah im sure it was this one i was sent to :P
04:27:29 <monqy> sent to?
04:27:34 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, by who and for what purpose?
04:27:57 <H3LLB0Y> damageinc, not sure for what reason lol, he just said to come check it out :D
04:28:06 <Sgeo> ...
04:28:32 <monqy> oh
04:28:38 <H3LLB0Y> i was telling him about my game im making and he said go here! :D
04:28:38 <elliott> hahaha
04:28:45 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: damageinc spent yesterday "trolling" us
04:29:00 <elliott> it seems reeling you in here is his latest "genius scheme"
04:29:05 <H3LLB0Y> hehe :P he popped into my game dev chatroom so i asked him stuff
04:29:16 <elliott> he's a (shitty) troll, I would advise ignoring him
04:29:39 <H3LLB0Y> meh im not fussed :P
04:29:47 <H3LLB0Y> not like i was doing anything anyway hah
04:31:22 <Sgeo> If you're willing to learn, just watching this chat can sometimes be an education in computer science, I think.
04:31:45 * elliott is sceptical.
04:32:05 <monqy> Sgeo: that sounds kind of like something itidus would say, but different
04:32:23 <H3LLB0Y> well, esoteric languages as intersting as they are, do not seem very useful :P but if there is some language independent stuff to learn yea i might hang around and have a listen and maybe chat some :P
04:32:49 <Sgeo> Well, some esoteric languages are explorations of various computer science concepts.
04:33:12 <quintopia> those which werent made by me
04:34:04 <H3LLB0Y> i think ill just stick with the more common usable ones :P
04:34:09 <H3LLB0Y> pythons great :D
04:34:26 <Sgeo> No one's suggesting that you use an esoteric language to write your next program with.
04:34:27 <elliott> i wouldn't class python in the usable category
04:34:32 <elliott> Sgeo: i am
04:34:40 <monqy> me too
04:34:52 <Sgeo> Although Haskell (not esoteric, but not particularly mainstream) is pretty well-liked by this channel.
04:35:37 <quintopia> i think H3LLB0Y should write the first marketable enterprise app for golfscript
04:35:47 <monqy> flogscript
04:36:20 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: why not? :P
04:36:50 <elliott> because it sucks
04:36:59 <H3LLB0Y> justification?
04:37:24 <Sgeo> Scoping sticks out to me, and I used to love Python
04:37:39 <monqy> I've never loved a language :'(
04:37:45 <Sgeo> Annoying-to-use lambdas, although at least they're there.
04:38:00 <Sgeo> But I may not be the best critic of languages.
04:38:03 <kallisti> I liked Python, and then I learned something else.
04:38:05 <Sgeo> Although I've looked at so many
04:38:20 <kallisti> *something else that wasn't C and Java
04:38:33 <quintopia> lisp!
04:38:37 <Sgeo> And elliott seems to know everything about every language that I have ever even glanced at, it's crazy.
04:38:48 <H3LLB0Y> meh
04:38:52 <zzo38> We do discuss many things in this channel. But main topic is esoteric computer programming.
04:39:07 <Sgeo> zzo38, that's the official topic. It's rare for us to be on topic.
04:39:11 <H3LLB0Y> saying 'it sucks' is not enough for me, so to me his opinion is worthless
04:39:27 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Python has terrible support for functional programming (especially the awful lambdas and lack of TCO), Guido isn't very smart, most of the opinionated design decisions are wrong, and the scoping is really fucked up (even in 3).
04:39:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know. But it has been discussed various things.
04:39:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:39:56 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: Like, what game you make, specifically?
04:40:49 <kallisti> Python, for all of the dynamicism and interpretive overhead, relly doesn't provide much in return.
04:40:53 <monqy> I have theoretical dislike along the lines of elliott's and practical dislike along the lines of "I try using it and it doesn't jive as well as other languages. I just get frustrated with it not doing what I want it to do. that's bad."
04:40:56 <kallisti> it's a very... bland language.
04:41:02 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: well, its supported by panda3d game engine that im using, so until i need c++ i will use python :P
04:41:02 <Sgeo> Isn't lack of TCO some sort of deliberate decision?
04:41:13 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, no one was recommending C++ over Python.
04:41:13 <kallisti> yes
04:41:18 <Sgeo> coppro might do so, I guess.
04:41:25 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: remaking the warcraft 3 custom map warlocks
04:41:28 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: C++ is even worse, mind you.
04:41:28 <monqy> H3LLB0Y: I doubt elliott would recommend c++
04:41:30 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't really like Python much either. But when I saw some Python programs, I did like the way object classes are implemented, for one thing
04:41:43 <kallisti> meh
04:41:44 <elliott> <Sgeo> Isn't lack of TCO some sort of deliberate decision?
04:41:51 <H3LLB0Y> whats wrong with c++ lol?
04:41:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Guido thinks TCO = tail recursion optimisation, and so dismissed it because you can trivially simulate it with a loop.
04:42:16 <zzo38> You can also use C instead of C++ if you prefer. And there is Haskell, JavaScript, Perl, NES ASM, etc
04:42:17 <elliott> Then someone corrected him and he pointed to an awful decorator hack that used exceptions to do arbitrary tail-calls as justification for not including it.
04:42:22 <elliott> He's more than a little clueless.
04:42:27 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Most things.
04:42:35 <Sgeo> elliott, clearly, the hacky way is the One Way To Do It
04:42:42 <pikhq> C++ is an esolang, IMO.
04:42:45 <elliott> (I'd love to see the performance of that decorator hack.)
04:43:11 <Sgeo> I've heard the expression "bolting legs to a dog to try to make an octopus" to describe C++.
04:43:31 <H3LLB0Y> elliott: so whats a better language for making games in?
04:43:42 <kallisti> I would say Ruby is better at doing what Python does than Python.
04:43:42 <monqy> whats games
04:43:45 <kallisti> if that makes sense.
04:43:48 <pikhq> Anything at all, including C.
04:43:50 <zzo38> I think the programming language to make a game also depends what game you are making.
04:43:52 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Well, that's a difficult question.
04:43:56 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: C++ certainly has the best library support.
04:44:15 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: I agree with John Carmack that functional languages are the way forward for game dev and have worked to make Haskell viable for that purpose.
04:44:17 <kallisti> C# has recently gained quite a lot of support with Microsoft pushing it for Xbox.
04:44:22 <elliott> (Certainly people are using it already for the task.)
04:44:32 <zzo38> I actually find QBASIC to be OK for many relatively simple kinds of games.
04:44:47 <quintopia> lol zzo38
04:44:53 <kallisti> I've never seen Python used as the main language for a "real" game.
04:44:58 <quintopia> warcraft 3 is not one of such games
04:44:58 <kallisti> but it's not something I know a lot about.
04:45:09 <Sgeo> I keep hearing this again and again, and am inclined to agree: C# is a less sucky Java.
04:45:27 <elliott> which means it's a more sucky anything else
04:45:42 <pikhq> Well, the entire design goal of C# is to be a less sucky Java.
04:45:50 <zzo38> And I have written many games in QBASIC and put many of them in a collection called "The CGA Collection", which is a collection of public domain games in QBASIC for IBM-compatible computers with Color Graphics Adapter, using only low-resolution (40x25 text and 320x200 graphics)
04:45:56 <elliott> (that said, the people behind C# /do/ seem to appreciate FP and LINQ is cool)
04:46:02 <elliott> (so it's really not all that bad)
04:46:27 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: the game engine itself is written in c++ just has python bindings so, you write the codes in python (for speed of development) and get the benefits of the speed of c++
04:46:49 <kallisti> I think C# also makes better use of generic types than many libraries in other popular "mainstream languages.
04:46:52 <kallisti> +"
04:46:53 <pikhq> You said C++ and speed in the same sentence. Lawl.
04:46:59 <Sgeo> Clearly, we need a Haskell compiler that targets Python.
04:47:03 <elliott> pikhq: well it's faster than python
04:47:09 <pikhq> True.
04:47:16 <elliott> and most other languages
04:47:27 <Sgeo> Would Forth be considered fast?
04:47:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Obscenely.
04:47:35 <quintopia> lol
04:47:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: I want a Haskell compiler that targets Glulx, and a Haskell compiler that targets MMIX.
04:47:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Forth is in between interpreted and compiled and it is the fastest such thing
04:48:13 <elliott> pikhq: r u srs
04:48:15 <Sgeo> I think I looked at Forth because of zzo38 and Factor because of Forth
04:48:26 <H3LLB0Y> well, you guys havent convinced me away from python or c++ :P
04:48:27 <elliott> forth's threaded code is not "fast"
04:48:45 <pikhq> elliott: No, just stupid.
04:48:45 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: Who said we were out to convince you?
04:48:52 <Sgeo> Factor... has stuff for games. But not sure if that's really sufficient for any real games, or if Factor is that great of a language
04:48:52 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: Use what you want then
04:49:02 <elliott> pikhq: there are forth compilers that use more conventional techniques though
04:49:05 <elliott> and i gather they're pretty good
04:49:18 <elliott> Sgeo: I found a cite for slava being done with factor btw
04:49:23 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
04:49:34 <H3LLB0Y> i will :D
04:49:48 <Sgeo> Is Smalltalk considered good for games?
04:49:50 <zzo38> Forth is still generally faster than interpreted languages in general; although much depends on the implementation and there are many ways.
04:49:55 <elliott> Sgeo: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/concatenative/12.01.06 from 10:53:03 <rien> slice0: 0 <vector> does the same
04:49:57 <Sgeo> It has a nice syntax, is easy to learn, and a good GUI
04:50:01 <H3LLB0Y> i like java
04:50:06 <pikhq> But, on a somewhat more... Pointful note: I'd imagine that a Forth compiler could get pretty good results, due to Forth semantics having hardly anything that *must* be slow.
04:50:30 * kallisti only programs in COBOL
04:50:40 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: I thought you wanted to use Python and C++ isn't it?
04:50:42 <pikhq> Though, of course, a naive Forth implementation is merely going to be "perhaps fast enough for some of the things you're doing".
04:50:58 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: yep, but i also like java :D
04:51:11 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: we'll get along like a house on fire.
04:51:12 <pikhq> (still, we live in the time of Really Fast Processors.)
04:51:17 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: there's no hope for you. sorry.
04:51:21 <kallisti> have fun!
04:51:29 <elliott> wait
04:51:32 <elliott> that means the opposite of what it should mean
04:51:34 <elliott> wtf english
04:51:35 <H3LLB0Y> no hope?
04:51:41 <H3LLB0Y> why do you say that?
04:51:54 <kallisti> I'm not going to do this.
04:51:55 <elliott> you like python, c++ and java :P
04:51:58 <Sgeo> elliott, other people will still work on it, right?
04:52:00 <elliott> oh wait
04:52:04 <elliott> he was respondingt o kallisti
04:52:07 <H3LLB0Y> and assembly! :D
04:52:09 <quintopia> elliott: s/fire/fire and the person who lives there/
04:52:11 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/pm7t2/why_concatenative_programming_matters/c3qttob
04:52:23 <H3LLB0Y> i want to learn x86 :P
04:52:26 <zzo38> I will eventually make computer (there is some internal discussion about whose job to help with these things), will include Forth built-in and available as soon as it is turned on. But it will have BASIC as well.
04:53:02 <kallisti> the "language discussion with someone who only knows of one paradigm with some minor variations" is something I've had too many times to be interested.
04:53:11 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: OK then do so. If your program is only for x86 computers that can work well. But then it won't run on other computers, unless you use emulator
04:54:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I've used that expression before because of The IT Crowd, and also dismayed to find the real meaning
04:54:07 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: wait this is a channel for esoteric languages right?
04:54:17 <H3LLB0Y> zzo38: assembly seems like it would fit in perfectly
04:54:22 <monqy> nope
04:54:29 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: Yes, but we discuss nearly anything in here
04:54:52 <H3LLB0Y> it honestly doesnt seem like great discussion lol
04:54:54 <zzo38> I have written some simple x86 codes in DOS, such as one PALETTE.COM to change palettes. I have written a very short MBR code.
04:55:10 <H3LLB0Y> its mostly bagging of people that have opionions other than your own :P
04:55:10 <elliott> it's not great discussion if you don't have a grasp of the basic concepts being talked about
04:55:13 <elliott> just ask itidus20
04:55:17 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: no that's just because you came in now
04:55:24 <H3LLB0Y> oh
04:55:26 <H3LLB0Y> its a time of day?
04:55:30 <H3LLB0Y> bag time?
04:55:34 <elliott> no it's a new person coming in
04:55:39 <elliott> this is yr hazing
04:55:39 <H3LLB0Y> ah ok lol
04:56:06 <zzo38> Well, it happened (probably only once) that someone left but then someone forgot to tell them that we were just discussing astrology a bit before... these kind of coincidences... still, it is not what most people try to discuss with astrology so it might not work
04:56:09 <quintopia> its pretty much traditional
04:56:25 <zzo38> It is just one example but only a very small one compare with the entire channel
04:56:32 <kallisti> I don't think I was ever hazed as an introduct-- oh wait nevermind
04:56:36 <kallisti> maybe a little.
04:56:37 <zzo38> Often TOPIC message changed in this channel because we like to do so
04:57:00 <elliott> kallisti: the hazing only stops when you change
04:57:07 <kallisti> I do enjoy the "feel" of machines languages, I'll say.
04:57:08 <elliott> forest, trees
04:57:16 <kallisti> I like inventing non-machine machine languages. :P
04:57:33 <kallisti> elliott: well my introductory hazing was in the pre-elliott error so it wasn't quite as pervasive.
04:57:38 <kallisti> lol error
04:57:40 <kallisti> *era
04:57:41 <quintopia> its like a frat. if you dont become like everyone else, or at least start keeping your opinions to yourself...
04:57:59 <elliott> kallisti: no
04:58:01 <kallisti> we're so good at advertising ourselves....
04:58:04 <elliott> kallisti: this IS your introductory hazing
04:58:08 <kallisti> elliott: nah
04:58:32 <monqy> I forget if I got hazed
04:58:38 <quintopia> pre-elliott?
04:58:41 <kallisti> I don't think hazing is an actual thing we do.
04:58:45 <quintopia> there is no pre-elliott
04:58:48 <monqy> I got asked what my business was and that's all I can remember
04:58:53 <quintopia> elliott is as old as the Ents
04:58:54 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: If you want to understand this channel, please look at logs at random date/time and then remain confused about what it is anyways
04:58:56 <kallisti> quintopia: yes before elliott was an #esoteric regular
04:59:03 <kallisti> it happened.
04:59:15 <quintopia> :O
04:59:30 <H3LLB0Y> lol im not too fussed about understanding this channel
04:59:35 <kallisti> good
04:59:39 <H3LLB0Y> i dont think it will help me in any way ever lol
04:59:54 <H3LLB0Y> its only use would be to waste time :D
04:59:55 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: You are probably correct.
05:00:14 <elliott> it's made several people slightly less idiotic
05:00:25 <elliott> unfortunately you have to start at a baseline higher than being a python/c++/java fan for that to work
05:00:28 <H3LLB0Y> but severely crazy?
05:00:29 <elliott> for instance PH liked Pascal
05:00:32 <elliott> that's better
05:00:45 <elliott> which says much more about python, c++ and java than it does pascal, naturally
05:00:55 <H3LLB0Y> well, ive done some haskell
05:00:57 <H3LLB0Y> and prolog
05:01:12 <elliott> haskell? haskell sucks, pascal is the best language
05:01:18 <zzo38> I have written a few Haskell packages already
05:02:00 <monqy> have you guys tried prog
05:02:20 <kallisti> prog?
05:02:22 <monqy> prog.
05:02:24 <Sgeo> Was I hazed, I don't remember
05:02:31 <kallisti> no. hazing is not a thing
05:02:36 <kallisti> please don't make it a thing.
05:02:39 <monqy> Sgeo: were you ever not hazed
05:02:49 <zzo38> Many kind of mathematical stuff can be implemented in Haskell, and Haskell has both layout (like Python) and nonlayout (like C) mode; I prefer nonlayout mode but you are allowed to mix them and it still works
05:02:52 <kallisti> "elliott yells at someone" is not hazing.
05:03:08 <pikhq> elliott yells at something is just elliott-breakfast.
05:03:13 <H3LLB0Y> lol
05:03:16 <elliott> i ain't even yelling yet
05:03:40 <H3LLB0Y> pascal looks ok i guess
05:03:57 <elliott> pascal? everyone knows fortran is the best programming language
05:04:03 <elliott> i would say "dazed" applies to Sgeo more than "hazed"
05:04:10 <zzo38> Can you easily enumerate the number of non-layout Haskell programmers? Probably there isn't much but there is a few
05:04:20 <kallisti> yes. zzo38.
05:04:23 <kallisti> QED
05:04:33 <pikhq> IIRC some of GHC is in non-layout.
05:04:40 <kallisti> oh, and compilers with Haskell output.
05:04:51 <kallisti> non-layout is more convenient for machine output
05:04:55 <elliott> pikhq: a majority
05:04:59 <elliott> i believe
05:05:01 <kallisti> (GUIDO I HOPE YOU'RE READING THIS)
05:05:03 <zzo38> H3LLB0Y: TeX is written in WEB, which is a kind of preprocessor for Pascal
05:05:05 <kallisti> (HINT HINT HINT)
05:05:21 <elliott> the maintainer of the time library uses non-layout
05:05:22 <elliott> but not in time itself
05:05:29 * Sgeo once wanted to make a language that took "There's only one way to do it" to the extreme
05:05:33 <Sgeo> But obviously it can't be TC.
05:05:35 <H3LLB0Y> nah i dotn like fortran by the looks of it
05:05:40 <H3LLB0Y> pascal > fortran
05:05:46 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, elliott was joking, I think.
05:05:48 <kallisti> Sgeo: I believe it's called subleq
05:05:48 <H3LLB0Y> it might jsut be the colouring of the text though :P
05:05:54 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: fortran? everyone knows Icon is the best programming language
05:05:58 <H3LLB0Y> Sgeo: yea i figred as much lol
05:05:59 <kallisti> which is turing complete
05:06:06 <zzo38> Non-layout certainly does work better for automatically generated programs, but manually written programs can be either way it works
05:06:08 <Sgeo> kallisti, uh... that makes no sense
05:06:23 <kallisti> ??
05:06:25 <Sgeo> Any program you can make in subleq, you can also make a subleq emulator and run the program in that.
05:06:26 <kallisti> subleq? one way to do it?
05:06:29 <Sgeo> At the very least.
05:06:31 <kallisti> what is confusing.
05:06:32 <pikhq> kallisti: If it's Turing complete there's more than one way to do something.
05:06:34 <zzo38> I also like LLVM, and I know BLISS as well. I like many of the features of LLVM and BLISS compared with C.
05:06:51 <pikhq> The vast majority of those ways will be unnecessarily roundabout, but that's irrelevant. :)
05:06:55 <H3LLB0Y> icon actually looks nice
05:07:05 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, learn Smalltalk.
05:07:11 <Sgeo> It's easy to learn, OO, nice IDE.
05:07:12 <kallisti> pikhq: does it count if all of those ways are sequences of the subleq instruction?
05:07:21 <pikhq> NEIN
05:07:29 <zzo38> Learn dc and AWK
05:07:39 <zzo38> And also INTERCAL
05:07:41 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: yeah it is i was having trouble thinking of bad languages under pressure
05:07:59 <Sgeo> Falcon.
05:08:03 <elliott> ah yes
05:08:09 <elliott> H3LLB0Y: icon? everyone knows falcon is the best programming language
05:08:14 <kallisti> learn homespring
05:08:17 <kallisti> best language.
05:08:34 <Sgeo> In full non-joking seriousness, I do think Smalltalk is a good language.
05:08:35 <H3LLB0Y> smalltalk good for games though?
05:08:41 <H3LLB0Y> thats pretty much all i want to make lol
05:08:48 <quintopia> i made a game in it once
05:08:48 <kallisti> if you consider Python is good for games
05:08:49 <kallisti> then yes
05:08:59 <zzo38> I am trying making a library in Haskell for text adventure game; what should I call it? One idea is "Uninform" (due to the other text adventure system "Inform") but maybe something else better
05:09:00 <pikhq> In full non-joking seriousness, Smalltalk certainly has below-average suck.
05:09:01 <H3LLB0Y> what has smalltalk got over python kallisti?
05:09:06 <Sgeo> It... I don't know. Probably yes, but might be a bit tricky to distribute those games in a way that people can't see the source code.
05:09:07 <kallisti> nothing
05:09:09 <elliott> everyone starts out wanting to make games, nobody ends up wanting to make game
05:09:09 <elliott> s
05:09:15 <kallisti> not for games anyway.
05:09:32 <H3LLB0Y> so why did you say that?
05:09:41 <elliott> kallisti is not Sgeo
05:09:43 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, it's overall a better language, and _may_ be easier for games for reasons.
05:09:52 <elliott> for reason!
05:09:53 <elliott> s
05:09:54 <quintopia> elliott: but getting 70% of the way there is still pretty popular *cough*vagrant*cough*
05:09:57 <Sgeo> GUI stuff is easier, probably.
05:10:05 <zzo38> I do not think it is usually a problem that people can't see source codes; usually is better if source codes are available you can then fix it and make it work even in other systems if needed changing
05:10:14 <pikhq> H3LLB0Y: It omits sucky bits that other languages keep, that you probably didn't even realise suck!
05:10:18 <monqy> I still want to vagrant
05:10:18 <elliott> quintopia: vagrant is 100% of the way
05:10:21 <elliott> it's the perfect game
05:10:28 <H3LLB0Y> lol you guys are funny :P
05:10:31 <quintopia> prove it
05:10:38 <H3LLB0Y> very amusing :D
05:10:40 <H3LLB0Y> hahaha
05:10:41 -!- Chef_ has joined.
05:10:41 <H3LLB0Y> ^
05:10:41 <quintopia> show me a vagrant to play now
05:10:42 <H3LLB0Y> proof
05:10:52 <Chef_> Hi
05:10:56 <Sgeo> I never did GUI stuff in Smalltalk, but then again, the only language I have done GUI stuff with is VB, and Python ONCE.
05:11:01 <elliott> `welcome Chef_
05:11:04 <HackEgo> Chef_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
05:11:08 <zzo38> Play Tetanus on Drugs, you need GameBoy Advance emulator to work this game, or a way to transfer to GameBoy Advance.
05:11:09 <Sgeo> Smalltalk's probably somewhat similar to VB in terms of IDE support for GUIs
05:11:15 <elliott> Chef_: did damageinc tell you to comeh ere
05:11:21 <Chef_> no
05:11:21 <elliott> *come here
05:11:22 <Chef_> why?
05:11:24 <elliott> oh good
05:11:30 <Chef_> He like Chef?
05:11:30 <elliott> because he's told at least one person to come here in the last hour or two :P
05:11:31 <zzo38> Chef_: Then, what question do you have, please?
05:11:34 <Chef_> *likes
05:11:49 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: because I don't really understand your obsession with "is it good for games?" when any general-purpose language is, with the proper graphics libraries, is viable as a "game programming language." The only major concern otherwise would be efficiency, where Python is obviously not king of the hill.
05:11:50 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, Smalltalk is rather different from many languages in terms of IDE and environment
05:11:51 <Chef_> zzo38: Do I really have to have a question at this moment?
05:12:00 <elliott> YES IT IS MANDATORY
05:12:01 <H3LLB0Y> well, for my gui's i will be using librocket, which lets you define your gui's using a html/css/xml style file to define it
05:12:02 <zzo38> Chef_: No, but I was just asking.
05:12:09 <Chef_> zzo38: Not yet
05:12:10 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: so if Python is good for you, in terms of efficiency, then practically any other semi-decent language is fine.
05:12:18 <Sgeo> With Smalltalk, you wouldn't really use text to describe the ... GUI
05:12:22 <zzo38> Main topic is esoteric computer programming, but usually we discuss a large number of complete different things.
05:12:37 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: also check out Lua.
05:12:38 <Sgeo> Then again, you don't use text to define classes. There is no syntax for classes.
05:12:39 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: did you not read what i said earlier, about the panda3d game engine being written in c++ mostly and having python bindings?
05:12:43 <Chef_> Although the lack of documentation for Threejs is annoying me
05:12:54 <elliott> threejs?
05:13:05 <Chef_> yea
05:13:06 <Sgeo> Javascript 3d library.
05:13:06 <monqy> jjj
05:13:16 <Sgeo> Anyways, I should start making food now.
05:13:19 * elliott struggles to determine the relevance to esolangs
05:13:19 <Chef_> Uses WebGL
05:13:24 <Chef_> no
05:13:29 <Chef_> no reference
05:13:35 <elliott> ok
05:13:57 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: okay so your criteria for "game programming language" is now "can it interface with C/C++"
05:14:08 <kallisti> I'm not sure if Smalltalk has that.
05:14:16 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: when was it not? :P
05:14:16 <Sgeo> Aliens exist.
05:14:27 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: I thought you were concerned about the actual language.
05:14:27 <Sgeo> I don't know how usable Aliens is on, say, Windows.
05:14:40 <H3LLB0Y> if python/panda3d did not have it i would probably have gone with straight c++ and a game engine written for hta
05:14:43 <H3LLB0Y> that*
05:14:49 <monqy> Sgeo: thanks for the beedaweeda memories or whoever he was
05:14:54 <Sgeo> beedaweeda?
05:14:59 <monqy> bedaweda
05:15:05 <monqy> help
05:15:20 <Sgeo> I don't know if Aliens can even talk to C++
05:15:24 <monqy> "im bad at names" - me
05:15:28 <Sgeo> A lot of languages can really only talk to C
05:15:37 <kallisti> aliens speak dubstep, obviously.
05:16:03 <elliott> ok i'm becoming absent for like 20 minutes i sure hope this place improves before i get back so i can go back to procrastinating
05:16:09 <kallisti> elliott: of course
05:16:25 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: C++ seems like your language of choice then
05:16:35 <kallisti> why use anything else/
05:16:49 <H3LLB0Y> well, because python makes it alot easier :P
05:17:06 <Sgeo> Smalltalk might be easier than Python.
05:17:09 <kallisti> ah, so you are concerned with the language, but you're also concerned with efficiency.
05:17:15 <kallisti> so then, perhaps you should look at Haskell. :>
05:17:20 <H3LLB0Y> its what panda3d was designed for and has most support for
05:17:30 <kallisti> also LuaJIT is impressively fast and has a C/C++ interface.
05:17:35 <Sgeo> Do you really want to remember labels for some random function, or do you want to do what smalltalk does
05:17:58 <Sgeo> myObject someThing: myFirstThing somethingElse: mySecondthing
05:18:27 <Sgeo> Can think of that like calling the someThing:somethingElse: method with arguments myFirstThing and mySecondthing on myObject
05:18:46 <Sgeo> (The terminology would probably actually be "sending a message" rather than calling a method, but...
05:19:43 <kallisti> C# would be an improvement in ease of programming, while also having game libraries. Also, you mentioned you like Java. well, C# is better.
05:20:29 <Sgeo> Can Vala talk to C++?
05:20:35 <Sgeo> I know it can talk to C obviously.
05:20:39 <H3LLB0Y> did i mention crossplatformability?
05:20:50 <kallisti> oh hey, Haskell has that too.
05:20:59 <H3LLB0Y> C# has mono i guess on linux
05:21:00 <Sgeo> There ... is Mono, but C# is better
05:21:01 <kallisti> C# does kind of, I don't know if the game libraries are portable
05:21:02 <zzo38> Can we combine LLVM and BLISS into something better than C?
05:21:03 <H3LLB0Y> what about mac?
05:21:04 <Sgeo> erm, Haskell ois better
05:21:05 <Sgeo> *is
05:21:07 <kallisti> but C# itself is portable via Mono at least.
05:21:13 <kallisti> to a degree.
05:21:20 <Sgeo> Haskell works on Mac
05:21:22 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: what about it?
05:21:30 <H3LLB0Y> does c# run on it?
05:21:40 <Sgeo> Oh, btw: Smalltalk programs should work near-identically on platforms where Smalltalk exists.
05:21:41 <zzo38> (BLISS is old and is not used today, but I like many of its ideas)
05:21:42 <kallisti> dunno. probably. if Mono works on mac.
05:21:45 <kallisti> mac = unix-like
05:21:53 <H3LLB0Y> yea
05:23:02 <kallisti> but again I doubt XNA, which is kind of the main game library for C#, was designed to be portable
05:23:09 <kallisti> since it's Microsoft's creation.
05:23:12 <kallisti> but, I don't know for sure.
05:24:35 <Sgeo> http://code.google.com/p/monoxna/
05:24:38 <zzo38> Plain TeX documents will always work identically on platforms where Plain TeX exists.
05:24:53 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: yes, TeX may be your language of choice for games.
05:25:28 <Sgeo> http://www.monoxna.org/
05:25:32 <zzo38> kallisti: Especially chess games. I have written a macro file for chess game variant in TeX
05:25:33 <Sgeo> I have to say, this is not encouraging.
05:26:01 <Sgeo> At least http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoP1hzcEATA works
05:26:05 <H3LLB0Y> kallisti: lol
05:26:10 <Sgeo> er, there exists a game that works.
05:26:14 <Sgeo> Anyways, I should go make food
05:26:17 <Sgeo> Have a busy day tomorrow.
05:27:09 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: you probably would like Lua though.
05:27:13 <kallisti> it has all the features you seem to enjoy.
05:27:23 <kallisti> it's event remotely similar to Python in some ways.
05:27:24 <kallisti> *even
05:27:40 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:27:55 <zzo38> What should I call text adventure game library in Haskell?
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05:28:49 <kallisti> zzo38: Hackventure
05:28:53 <kallisti> :>
05:29:19 <zzo38> kallisti: OK, I can call it that. As long as, other people agrees not use that name; because, if they do, then it confuses everything
05:33:05 <H3LLB0Y> nah i dont like falcon either
05:33:26 <kallisti> H3LLB0Y: lol, elliott was joking when he was listing off languages.
05:33:34 <H3LLB0Y> i know
05:33:37 <H3LLB0Y> im just saying i dont like it
05:35:01 <Sgeo> H3LLB0Y, it is, in many ways, not a likable language.
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06:00:14 <zzo38> Did you know that clones never use mirrors?
06:00:25 <zzo38> Did you know ... That no-one ever reads these things?
06:01:22 <zzo38> Did you know that Tony Fernandez is Spanish for Bill Buckner?
06:01:27 <zzo38> Did you know ...that half of all American schoolchildren graduate in the bottom 50% of their class?
06:02:06 <zzo38> Did you know ...that in 1983 a short, brown haired man named Tom read the dictionary to check for spelling mistakes, and upon finding a word he believed to be misspelt he consulted his dictionary, only to find that the word was spelt correctly?
06:02:27 <zzo38> Did you know that the Sun God's gift of cancer is honourable?
06:02:34 <elliott> yes
06:02:47 <zzo38> Did you know that "this sentence is true" is not true, and neither is this one?
06:03:29 <zzo38> Did you know that an anime is a chemical compound that contains the anime group, which consists of one oxygen atom, one tantalum atom, one potassium atom, and one uranium atom, with a total charge of negative one (OTaKU-)?
06:03:47 <pikhq_> Did you know that "this sentence is false" is a type error?
06:03:55 <zzo38> Did you know that if cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl?
06:04:06 <zzo38> pikhq_: I realize it now.
06:04:31 <pikhq_> Also, blah, didn't have bsdgames installed.
06:04:44 <pikhq_> Surely rot13 is more important than, say, /bin/sh!
06:04:44 <pikhq_> :P
06:05:52 <ion> /ova/fu
06:06:32 <zzo38> Did you know? ...that killing a mockingbird won't cure your schizophrenia?
06:07:05 <zzo38> Did you know that the Earth is bipolar?
06:07:24 <zzo38> Did you know that you are reading this sentence?
06:07:38 <zzo38> Did you know, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles to frown but only 4 to extend your arm and punch them in the face?
06:07:46 <zzo38> Did you know... that El Chupacabra was my uncle?
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06:17:56 <lifthras1ir> Did you know that "Did you now that 'Did you know that ... is a recursive sentence?' is a recursive sentence?" is a recursive sentence?
06:18:59 <monqy> no
06:19:41 <ion> > let s0 = "Did you know that \"" ++ s1 ++ "\" is a recursive sentence?"; s1 = "Did you now that '" ++ s0 ++ "' is a recursive sentence?" in s0
06:19:43 <lambdabot> "Did you know that \"Did you now that 'Did you know that \"Did you now that...
06:20:00 <ion> > let s0 = "Did you know that \"" ++ s1 ++ "\" is a recursive sentence?"; s1 = "Did you now that '" ++ s0 ++ "' is a recursive sentence?" in text s0
06:20:00 <monqy> > fix show
06:20:01 <lambdabot> can't find file: L.hs
06:20:06 <elliott> you broke it
06:20:07 <monqy> rip
06:20:11 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
06:20:11 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
06:20:17 <monqy> rip rip rip
06:20:34 <Sgeo> Huh?
06:20:44 <Sgeo> I don't get the thing about "This sentence is false" being a type error
06:28:40 <pikhq_> Not all sentences I state make sense.
06:28:50 <pikhq_> Some of them are nothing but mostly-nonsense.
06:32:53 <Sgeo> Oh
06:33:12 <Sgeo> I remember seeing on Wikipedia something about type theory resolving Russell's paradox, though I have no idea how.
06:33:44 <quintopia> it prevents a specific kind of self-reference
06:33:55 <pikhq_> I think it has something to do with... Yeah, that.
06:34:54 <elliott> (Not the same type theory as Martin-Lof.)
06:35:45 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_theory
06:38:09 <elliott> I know.
06:40:10 <Sgeo> "then assigning each mathematical (and possibly other) entity to a type."
06:40:18 <Sgeo> Entities that are not mathematical in nature?
06:40:35 <zzo38> There is a cooperative chess game called Stallmate. I made up another cooperative variant, called Secret Stallmate. In Secret Stallmate, you are not allowed to see your opponent's pieces or communicate with your opponent, and pieces are set up at random and independently. You can call the referee and do like Kriegspiel.
06:41:04 <zzo38> Or, with the other player; they are not necessarily an opponent (although they have the opposite colors to you).
06:41:26 <Sgeo> zzo38, have you ever looked at Fourplay?
06:41:29 <zzo38> However, if a player forfeits, you lose and the other guy wins; so in that case they are opposed to you
06:41:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: No
06:41:35 <Sgeo> (I have no idea if that's safe to google)
06:41:49 <zzo38> I would use Wikipedia to look it up anyways if I want to do so; not Google
06:41:55 <Sgeo> Apparently it is
06:42:15 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/fourplay.html
06:42:21 <Sgeo> (Note I had to add chess)
06:43:48 <zzo38> Do you know of other cooperative games where communication is forbidden?
06:43:53 <Sgeo> WTF is a Beethovin set?
06:47:41 <zzo38> I don't know
06:48:33 <Sgeo> "Definition of a Beethoven Set"
06:48:39 <Sgeo> "For a given group of Pieces, the Beethoven Set for that group of Pieces is defined as the set containing one of each of type of Pieces in that group. Dollarmen and Kings are an exception, they are never part of the Beethoven Set."
06:52:22 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/pieces/cost.html
06:52:27 <Sgeo> "Transfer interrupted!"
06:52:30 <Sgeo> o.O
06:52:40 <Sgeo> </HTML>>
06:52:40 <Sgeo> <HR><H3>Transfer interrupted!</H3>
06:53:12 <zzo38> Can we together invent the game where the board is a horoscope which updates in real time? Possibly even play the game in a moving vehicle and houses change due to that too... of course you require time limits for the moves so that you cannot simply wait for a very long time until the planets favor you. You can have cards to change harmonic factors and so on, or play by mail if wanted, etc
06:54:30 <Sgeo> "The Neutron Gem is worth 1 F$ - that is, any Neutron Gem owned by a Player can be converted by that Player to one Fourplay Dollar."
06:54:47 <Sgeo> Maybe the amount that neutron gems are worth should be bumped up to encourage neutron gem use?
06:55:52 <Sgeo> Er, neutron use
06:56:26 <elliott> TODO: Fix captcha
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07:05:32 <zzo38> Please write some more quiz files for Internet Quiz Engine! So far is only three files
07:06:08 <ion> `run fortune
07:06:16 <HackEgo> ​___ ___ \ d88888b d88888b \ d888888888b d888888888b \ 888888888888b 888888888888b \ "d88888888888bd8888bd8888888888b' \ `d888888888 "8" 88888888b' \ `d88888' __ __ `8888b' \ d88 / | | \ 88b \ d888 :,-| |-.: 888b \ d88888 \_|_|_/ 88888b \ d8"""8b ' ___ ` d8"""8b \ : __ d88888b __ : \ ".
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07:11:16 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/pieces/pieces.20s.html
07:11:25 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz
07:11:28 <HackEgo> MoALTz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
07:11:57 <Sgeo> The definition of the Forcebeam Generator looks to me like it allows two FGs owned by different people to make a forcebeam
07:12:05 <Sgeo> But the physical description seems to contradict that
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07:14:16 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz_
07:14:19 <HackEgo> MoALTz_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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07:23:18 <Sgeo> "Any friendly Piece adacent to a PrimeMover in the begining of its turn can move a prime number of squares in any single direction, provided all squares between its starting square and its destination square whose distance from the starting square is a compound number are unoccupied. "
07:23:25 <Sgeo> Compound? Isn't it composite?
07:24:04 <quintopia> yes
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10:25:53 <elliott> Boo.
10:26:42 <oerjan> good day
10:33:13 <elliott> wtf, is lambdabot down?
10:33:25 * oerjan whistles innocently
10:39:47 <oerjan> <kallisti> Let n ∈ Z. Prove that 2 | (n⁴ - 3) if and only if 4 | (n² + 3).
10:40:18 <oerjan> tip: n^4-9 = (n^2+3)*(n^2-3)
10:44:16 <oerjan> and noting that the factors are both even or both odd
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11:28:29 <Taneb> Hello!
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11:34:48 <Taneb> Hello, splitters!
11:36:22 <elliott> ais523 isn't going to wake up for ages, is he.
11:38:00 <NihilistDandy> Split split splitadelphia
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12:24:45 * oerjan looks at the recent changes and wonders if the spam will reach an asymptote before elliott finishes the move
12:25:03 <fizzie> oerjan: The spangularity?
12:25:24 <oerjan> exactly
12:25:27 <fizzie> (That's when spambots become better than humans at CAPTCHAs.)
12:25:58 <elliott> they have ~2 days
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12:42:20 <NihilistDandy> Besides Spam, what else is annoying on the internet? I'd like to devise a lexicon of internet slang where such things are named after canned things that you can buy with food stamps :D
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12:51:32 <elliott> you
12:53:16 <oerjan> the entire list of annoying things is itself annoying. a calvin & hobbes strip comes to mind.
12:54:33 <elliott> jesus christ how long do i have to sit here waiting for a birminghamite
12:55:15 <NihilistDandy> Now I just need to find a recursive welfare food to represent the list itself… perfect
12:55:18 * oerjan notes ais523 alluded to my ~ expression in his reddit comment
12:55:55 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: welfare recipients, soilent green. hth.
12:56:01 <oerjan> *y
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14:44:29 <elliott> TODO also: figure out weird cache/gzip stuff
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16:31:50 <Taneb> Hello!
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17:25:03 <MDude> Hi
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18:15:05 <Taneb> Hello!
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18:16:28 * kallisti is using monospaced fonts in section headers for his contract, like a boss.
18:16:40 * kallisti should never be a web designer.
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18:21:10 <zzo38> kallisti: Then don't be a web designer.
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18:22:34 <kallisti> zzo38: I won't
18:24:24 <itidus21> i like deltaplex..
18:24:59 <itidus21> i decided against trying to compile it on windows versus the chances of me actually using it. but the concept itself is pretty cool to me
18:25:05 * kallisti is partial to Courier
18:25:14 <kallisti> oh we're not talking about fonts
18:25:28 <itidus21> hmm
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18:33:29 <itidus21> kallisti www.braindamage.vg/
18:33:41 <itidus21> it actually took all that time for me to find it
18:34:00 <itidus21> wait uh NSFW
18:34:01 <itidus21> accidente
18:34:09 <itidus21> i didnt know...... i didnt know
18:34:33 <itidus21> the porn was posted on feb 12th
18:34:52 <itidus21> safer link is this one http://www.braindamage.vg/projects/
18:36:42 <itidus21> just posted with regard to using monospaced fonts on a webpage
18:43:34 <kallisti> lol
18:43:50 <kallisti> I think monospace (can) look good
18:43:59 <kallisti> but I note that most websites do not use monospace fonts.
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19:41:16 <ais523> ah, you have to love the Internet: cia.gov gets DDOSed, Anonymous aren't entirely sure whether they did it or not
19:41:17 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:43:13 <Gregor> I'll bet that message goes roughly like this:
19:43:18 <Gregor> <elliott> Waaaah where are you?
19:43:25 <ais523> actually it doesn't
19:43:31 <Gregor> *snaps*
19:43:33 <ais523> it's about how stupid MediaWiki is
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19:43:52 <Gregor> This is why we should be using Hackiki >: )
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20:39:02 <Taneb> Well, I have now seen Repo
20:39:15 <ais523> Taneb: context?
20:39:30 <ais523> not to mention that out of context, there are multiple ways to expand the last word
20:40:08 <Taneb> the genetic opera
20:41:10 <Taneb> It was /weird/
20:41:11 <ais523> ah, I didn't know /that/ one
20:41:37 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoeYcnTHhSk&feature=watch-now-button&wide=1
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20:59:53 <fizzie> ais523: Okay, this is getting a bit repetitive now: http://p.zem.fi/1wea
21:01:56 <Taneb> What?
21:02:43 <fizzie> It's a new version of an earlier spam.
21:02:46 <itidus21> your identity/information's was used to dupe a Australia business man to
21:02:46 <itidus21> the tune of $4 Billion Usd
21:03:14 <itidus21> you could probably count the number of australians with $4 Billion Usd on on hand :P
21:03:23 <fizzie> I think the previous one had more pizzazz.
21:03:32 <ais523> I'm just /that/ trustworthy, that anyone can make anyone trust them simply by pretending to be me
21:03:53 <itidus21> i mean.. thats basically as rich as you get in australia
21:04:19 <itidus21> noone here with $60 billion
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21:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, the new version of DF is out, and I am going to need help fighting my way through the inevitable library clusterfuck.
21:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course I immediately discover that I can't even install packages because the mirror is down.
21:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, help
21:24:06 <Taneb> It seems to run fine for me
21:24:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You're not running it on the same distro as me.
21:24:26 <Taneb> Fair 'nuff
21:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's complaining about not having SDL here.
21:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> pacman -Syu fails. I am so out of my depth I don't have a hope of getting it working before tomorrow.
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21:31:06 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: are all your options truely exhausted?
21:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> No; I remembered Google.
21:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott is probably going to yell at me once he comes online, but Dwarf Fortress.
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21:32:10 <itidus21> i think he understands the importance of DF
21:32:25 <olsner> what's dwarf fortress?
21:32:37 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner..................................................
21:32:44 <olsner> ..................................................
21:32:56 <monqy> .
21:32:59 <ais523> olsner: one of the most crazy complicated strategy games ever invented
21:33:11 <itidus21> olsner doesn't know?
21:33:11 <ais523> it has an old-fashioned ASCII interface, and yet manages to peg most modern CPUs
21:33:16 <olsner> strategy? sounds boring
21:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Great, now I still can't install packages because of some signature problems.
21:33:23 <itidus21> hehe
21:33:30 <ais523> and Minecraft is a poor ripoff of it
21:33:33 <itidus21> i haven't played it but i've seen screenshots
21:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, ignore ais, it's the only strategy game ever where your units will decide to get drunk rather than fight.
21:47:02 <itidus21> so i just thought up a fairly weird way for describing a shape (imagining it in 2d) which i will spell out
21:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Jesus christ I really do not understand pacman.
21:53:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what distro uses pacman?
21:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Arch.
21:55:01 <itidus21> so taking the unit circle as an example.. it can be said that for the interval [0,360] of all rotations of the unit circle, that the circle intersects x zero times at the intervals (−∞,-1) and (1,∞), once at -1, once at 1, and twice at the interval (-1,1), and that that the circle intersects y zero times at the intervals (−∞,-1) and (1,∞), once at -1, once at 1, and twice at the interval (
21:55:01 <itidus21> -1,1),
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22:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> YES IM DF
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22:15:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Worldgen is a) way better and b) way slower.
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22:18:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wow, it actually generates bibles now.
22:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I have Komivak, "Throwsling", a platinum slab, which apparently has the secrets of life and death written on it.
22:20:15 <itidus21> `log [k]omivak
22:20:57 <HackEgo> No output.
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22:22:38 <itidus21> `log [w]orldgen
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22:39:51 <itidus21> there you go
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22:40:15 <itidus21> relieved feeling through disconnection
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23:19:36 <kallisti> > map (head &&& length) . group $ ">>>>+++++------+++++------<<<"
23:19:37 <lambdabot> [('>',4),('+',5),('-',6),('+',5),('-',6),('<',3)]
23:19:48 <kallisti> holy BF compiler optimization, batman!
23:23:41 <kallisti> @src groupBy
23:23:41 <lambdabot> groupBy _ [] = []
23:23:41 <lambdabot> groupBy eq (x:xs) = (x:ys) : groupBy eq zs
23:23:41 <lambdabot> where (ys,zs) = span (eq x) xs
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