←2012-02-17 2012-02-18 2012-02-19→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:14:09 <itidus20> lol
00:14:23 <itidus20> quite ironic
00:15:50 <itidus20> Sgeo: it's running really slow
00:23:09 <itidus20> Sgeo: it appears to be a fictional game.. which means it's whatever you imagine it to be
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00:28:49 <itidus20> ok so im wrong and thats not what fictional game means.
00:30:45 <Sgeo> Wait what?
00:31:10 <itidus20> yeah.. there is no xcbzone.. its just a fictional entity
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02:10:40 <elliott> oh, hmm
02:10:57 <elliott> @ping
02:10:58 <lambdabot> pong
02:11:25 <zzo38> @king
02:11:25 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: kind ping
02:11:30 <zzo38> @queen
02:11:30 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
02:11:41 <zzo38> ?thank you
02:11:41 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: thank you thanks
02:16:20 <elliott> ais523: STOP SLEEPIN'
02:17:29 <elliott> fizzie: You're awake, right?
02:18:25 <ais523> elliott: here
02:20:02 <elliott> excellent
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06:09:48 <elliott> `welcome maki
06:09:51 <HackEgo> maki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:11:11 <maki> thanks
06:11:15 <maki> are you bots?
06:11:40 <elliott> no
06:11:48 <elliott> well HackEgo is
06:12:01 <maki> thought so
06:12:27 <maki> I'm trying to learn brainfuck
06:12:45 <elliott> cool
06:13:23 <elliott> this place is a bit quiet right now i'm afraid
06:13:30 <maki> hehe yes, their channel says "go to esoteric", so here I am :)
06:13:32 * Sgeo is reading the BOFH archives
06:13:40 <Sgeo> Who is they?
06:13:47 <Sgeo> Oh, a brainfuck channel?
06:14:06 <maki> yes
06:14:24 <elliott> Gregor's i think
06:14:45 <Sgeo> It isn't usually this quiet here, btw. Although elliott left, so it's quieted down, but he's visiting. Unless he's staying.
06:16:05 <maki> What is this channel exactly about?
06:16:37 <Sgeo> In theory, about esoteric programming languages, which includes brainfuck
06:16:40 <elliott> esotercic programming languages
06:16:52 <elliott> see the wiki for a definition
06:16:56 <Sgeo> In practice, we talk about whatever. Often programming or computer science or math related.
06:17:03 <Sgeo> But not always
06:17:06 <elliott> (hackego linked it)
06:18:45 <maki> I actually want to make an interpreter of i
06:18:47 <maki> *it
06:19:09 <elliott> that's fairly easy in most languages
06:19:23 <H3LLB0Y> write it in brainfuck
06:19:32 <elliott> been done
06:19:34 <elliott> many times
06:19:46 <elliott> dbfi is like 4 lines iirc
06:19:56 <H3LLB0Y> dbfi?
06:21:06 <elliott> daniel cristofani's brainfuck interp in brainfuck
06:21:14 <H3LLB0Y> oh
06:24:39 <maki> iirc?
06:24:50 <H3LLB0Y> if i recall correctly
06:24:51 <elliott> if i recall correctly
06:25:08 <H3LLB0Y> 5 lines elliott
06:25:11 <H3LLB0Y> well
06:25:14 <H3LLB0Y> 4.5ish
06:25:24 <monqy> whats a line
06:25:37 <H3LLB0Y> 80 chars?
06:26:11 <H3LLB0Y> 5.5* actually
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06:49:20 <maki> a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck?
06:49:55 <monqy> it happens
06:50:31 <maki> I'll let that be my project
06:50:51 <maki> Well, got to go. Hope to be around
06:51:33 <elliott> bye :)
06:52:15 <maki> bye :)
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08:03:56 <zzo38> OK................................................................................................................................?
08:05:29 <elliott> !
08:05:42 <ion> ¡
08:14:29 <zzo38> I am thinking of the text adventure game system in Haskell.
08:15:32 <zzo38> The container currently [ObjID] but maybe I should include the quantity, so that you can have parts of an object in different places such as money and so on. Or maybe do it something differently? I am not exactly sure
08:30:25 <zzo38> Maybe there is a better way... for most things... I don't know...
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08:30:31 <zzo38> Quit: hello
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09:19:21 <Taneb> Hello
09:20:23 <elliott> hello
09:28:05 <elliott> Taneb: did you see THE WIKI,
09:28:14 <Taneb> Nay, I did not.
09:29:32 <Taneb> Which wiki would this be?
09:29:40 <Taneb> The read only, which indeed I did see?
09:29:43 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
09:29:47 <elliott> Right, that.
09:30:00 <Taneb> Or the new one, hosted by thee?
09:31:38 <elliott> No, that one hasn't apparated yet.
09:32:42 <Taneb> I may yet change the specifications of Luigi
09:32:57 <Taneb> The alphabet is unnecessary
09:33:59 <Taneb> And I would like to add context-sensitivity and make ambiguity an error
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09:35:35 <elliott> fizzie: Also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Alternative_parsers.
09:47:38 <fizzie> Noticed that. "Many of the things linked here are likely to be out of date and under-maintained, even abandoned." (Haven't looked closer.)
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10:01:42 <elliott> oerjan: YOU DIDN'T BELIEEEVE ME
10:02:01 <elliott> fizzie: & yet also http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec, plus: "mwlibPediaPress.comPythonMarkup and otherparse tree, HTML, PDF, XML, OpenDocumentPart of cooperation between Wikimedia Foundation and PediaPressBSD"
10:02:22 <elliott> (Also "mediawiki-parserPeter Potrowl
10:02:22 <elliott> Erik RosePythonMarkupXHTML, raw text, ASTGSoC-2011 project; the use of a PEG parser makes it easy to improve
10:02:22 <elliott> Parser functions are not supported yet.")
10:02:33 <elliott> I would wager that mwlib thing works properly if the Foundation were involved and PediaPress use it.
10:02:36 <oerjan> elliott: sorry, it wasn't you, it was just that the event itself violated what i believed to be fundamental laws of the universe
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10:04:21 <elliott> oerjan: What event would that be?
10:04:47 <oerjan> the event of the esolang wiki getting decent administration and upgrading
10:05:15 <elliott> oerjan: I'm even going to finally make you an admin!!!!!!!
10:06:33 <elliott> oerjan: Don't worry, I'm kidding.
10:06:37 <elliott> oerjan: It'll be much more effective as a threat.
10:06:47 <oerjan> yay
10:07:25 <Sgeo> kallisti, sorry for failing to notify you of the Flash.
10:07:35 <Sgeo> But there's a flash, and just now an update after it
10:09:46 <elliott> oerjan: Anyway, do you realise what this *means*?
10:10:09 <elliott> We can no longer just point Timwi at Graue. :(
10:10:23 <elliott> Wait, I'm diplomatic now. I'm not allowed to say things like that.
10:11:08 <oerjan> oh dear
10:11:35 <Sgeo> Timwi?
10:11:54 <Sgeo> Is that some person on the wiki who's not good at esolang making?
10:12:12 <elliott> No, they're excellent at esolang making.
10:12:36 <Sgeo> Oh, so the person I keep mixing up with someone who's not good at esolang making
10:12:38 <elliott> They're also excellent at persistently requesting how to contact Graue to become an administrator.
10:12:39 <Sgeo> I think?
10:12:41 <Sgeo> Oh
10:13:20 <elliott> Which has lead to some awkward hours in this channel.
10:13:37 <elliott> He also thinks we should move the wiki to somewhere with an admin that responds to requests like that.
10:13:43 <elliott> So............ yeah..............................................
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10:14:28 <Sgeo> Does he think it should be a positive response?
10:14:50 <Sgeo> Or does he think it's ok if the admin gives a negative response, as long as it's a response?
10:15:00 <oerjan> diplomacy crash course coming up
10:15:17 <elliott> Sgeo: I have no idea, but he's persistent.
10:15:18 <elliott> oerjan: ?
10:15:28 <oerjan> elliott: for you
10:15:40 <Sgeo> First, you need seven players.
10:16:10 <elliott> fizzie: It's quite bestest how MW can parse "''The '''quick'' brown''' fox".
10:16:38 <elliott> And thus also "'''''abc def'' quux'''", one presumes.
10:17:00 <elliott> It would be great if "''''abc def''' quux''" caused the interpretation of the first quote-sequence to change to avoid rebalancing.
10:20:45 <fizzie> <b∪i><b∪i>abc def</b> quux</i>
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10:23:23 <elliott> fizzie: oerjan: Can you wake Alan Dipert up?
10:24:59 <elliott> Thanks,
10:25:00 <elliott> .
10:25:24 <oerjan> who is alan dipert again
10:26:18 <oerjan> hm not sle*reah or seb*bu
10:27:21 <oerjan> oh wait, the owner of esolangs.org?
10:27:49 <fizzie> Also some kinda blogger, I see.
10:29:13 <elliott> oerjan: yes
10:30:08 <fizzie> I think he wakes up if you say his name three times in front of a mirror. But not sure.
10:32:10 <oerjan> hmph i was going to make a joke on having to pronounce it perfectly, but that is ruined by the fact he seems to be american, not french
10:35:29 <oerjan> which might sort of explain why he's asleep
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10:40:21 <elliott> I hate America. :(
10:40:24 * elliott cries
10:40:49 <ion> Welcome to the no-fly list.
10:40:53 <oerjan> al qaeda is thataway
10:44:11 <pikhq_> elliott: I'm afraid that we'll have to extradite you to somewhere simultaneously inside and outside of US jurisdiction.
10:45:11 <ion> Quantum jurisdiction
10:46:01 <oerjan> it's a small cell in CERN, just wedged between the french and swiss borders
10:46:11 <pikhq_> ion: No, it's merely defined to be whichever is most convenient for the current purpose.
10:55:46 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's because I've heard from elsewhere that CL's community can be a bit harsh that's making me think it, but I think #lisp is acting quite sarcastic to me
10:56:29 <elliott> IIRC, #lisp is Smug Lisp Weeniedom personified.
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10:59:26 <elliott> oerjan: I would like to warn you that I am about to spam.
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10:59:45 <kmc> i wonder if #lisp is representative of "the Lisp community" or if that's even a thing
11:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: http://viagra.cialis/
11:00:09 <elliott> TREMBLE IN FEAR.
11:00:16 <elliott> Oh, someone joined. Hello tzxn3.
11:00:25 <tzxn3> hi
11:00:28 <tzxn3> :)
11:00:38 <monqy> hi
11:00:49 <oerjan> wat
11:01:51 <kmc> i don't think #haskell is particularly representative of "the Haskell community"
11:01:52 <oerjan> that's not a valid url, is it?
11:02:02 <elliott> It is if you have $100k or so.
11:02:16 <elliott> Everything always comes back round to #haskell with kmc.
11:02:16 <oerjan> YAY
11:02:24 <kmc> it's true
11:02:34 <kmc> not a huge leap from #lisp though
11:02:47 <kmc> and i have no experience with #lisp
11:03:22 <elliott> How long does it take to get to America?
11:03:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | The #haskell diaspora | Resistance is sexyliccipie, thus voltage is kinsley times currant. | Electric bonobos, all the rage..
11:08:38 <pikhq_> elliott: Define a location in "America", it varies.
11:09:21 <pikhq_> You can have 8 hour plane trips without leaving the country, IIRC.
11:09:27 <pikhq_> And the continet?
11:09:30 <pikhq_> Continent.
11:09:31 <pikhq_> Well.
11:09:59 <Taneb> Bicontinental mess
11:11:18 <elliott> pikhq_: Wherever Alan Dipert is.
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11:13:46 <Taneb> Well, my second laptop is on its last legs
11:14:09 <elliott> Must have been all the raving.
11:14:17 <Taneb> I'm going to have a tower of broken laptops
11:15:44 <pikhq_> elliott: Googling suggests he's in North California.
11:15:53 <pikhq_> Erm.
11:15:55 <pikhq_> North Carolina.
11:16:02 <pikhq_> Roughly an 8 hour flight.
11:16:21 <elliott> Aren't there any supersonic planes to North Carolina?
11:16:35 <pikhq_> There aren't any supersonic planes in non-military use.
11:16:37 <elliott> I don't want to wait ~10 hours, but waiting ~8 hours is almost as bad. :(
11:16:39 <Taneb> elliott: nah, they stopped those once the pilots started all getting cancer
11:16:48 <elliott> pikhq_: Okay, so how do I get on a military use plane?
11:16:56 * elliott is results-oriented.
11:17:02 <pikhq_> Take over the UK.
11:17:08 <Taneb> Find an airbase and ask nicely?
11:17:20 <pikhq_> (I suggest finding a scam in UK laws. There's bound to be several)
11:17:35 <Taneb> UK laws are tricky.
11:17:42 <Taneb> Half of them don't really exist
11:18:17 <pikhq_> A significant fraction exist only in theory, but have long since gone the way of the Library of Alexandria.
11:18:57 <oerjan> elliott: this is the point where you realize alan dipert is on a weekend trip to an isolated cottage in the appalachians
11:19:15 <pikhq_> Meh, nuke the Appalachians. World'll be better for it.
11:25:01 <Taneb> Oh dear.
11:26:29 <Taneb> I'm still compulsively checking the wiki for updates
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11:27:23 <oerjan> i almost did that once, but i managed to reach the abort button before it loaded
11:27:49 <elliott> If you want to F5 to see if it's been migrated yet, you'll want to load http://esolangs.org/.
11:27:59 <elliott> esoteric.voxelperfect.net might still point to the old wiki for up to a day.
11:28:34 <Taneb> Will esolangs.org automatically be the wiki, or will it give the three options?
11:28:48 <oerjan> there are three options?
11:28:58 <Taneb> Wiki, File archive, and forum
11:29:11 <elliott> The forum is going the way of the dodo.
11:29:22 <elliott> esolangs.org will redirect to the wiki; I'll stick a link to the file archive somewhere on the wiki.
11:29:51 <Taneb> Already is one, I believe
11:30:12 <Taneb> Unless it's going to be a brand new wiki?
11:30:35 <elliott> What?
11:30:45 <elliott> No, there's no readily-accessible link.
11:30:48 <Taneb> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:The_Esoteric_File_Archive
11:30:54 <Taneb> 3 clicks from main page
11:32:19 <elliott> I suppose the community portal is good enough.
11:32:33 <oerjan> it's a little annoying if old links stop working, isn't it
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11:33:49 <elliott> oerjan: I have no idea what conclusion you've jumped to.
11:33:52 <oerjan> so i hope you don't make them do that
11:34:29 <elliott> I'm sure you also hope I don't kill a dozen kittens. I'm not sure why you would think links would break...
11:34:47 <oerjan> elliott: to things in the file archive, i mean
11:34:57 <elliott> Graue will continue to host the file archive.
11:35:18 <elliott> I can set up a redirect from /files/* to the appropriate server. Though not today.
11:35:27 <oerjan> that's what i was hoping
11:35:44 <elliott> oerjan: I very much doubt there are many links to it, though.
11:35:56 <elliott> Anyway, perhaps someone will find this useful, some day: http://sprunge.us/hgaT
11:36:21 <oerjan> well for example the version of the underload spec on the archive is the official one, i think it has been linked from blogs
11:37:11 <Taneb> elliott, I count 29 esolangs at least where the article links tot he file archive
11:37:23 <elliott> [[Underload]] links to esoteric.voxelperfect.net.
11:37:35 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=esolangs.org%2Ffiles&go=Go
11:37:40 <elliott> AFAICT nothing links to esolangs.org/files.
11:37:48 <oerjan> funny
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11:38:02 <elliott> Oh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gregor_Richards does.
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11:38:19 <elliott> and http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1131382031/ (but this is irrelevant), http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Aura
11:38:30 <elliott> OK, there's quite a few
11:38:33 <elliott> but I cba to set up a redirect today
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11:39:12 <elliott> oerjan: Hey, can I spam some more?
11:39:26 <oerjan> NO
11:39:39 <elliott> Well... that wasn't really so much a request as a fair warning.
11:39:46 <elliott> It took me like 5 minutes to prepare this spamart.
11:39:48 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:39:52 <oerjan> O KAY
11:40:06 <elliott> You have no heart.
11:40:14 <elliott> It's only 63 lines.
11:40:17 <oerjan> your words hurt
11:40:21 <elliott> That's like two minutes at the worst.
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11:41:09 <oerjan> hey if it's not worth getting banned for, it cannot be that great.
11:41:12 <oerjan> but ok.
11:41:17 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:41:40 <elliott> Excellent.
11:43:48 <shachaf> [
11:43:52 <elliott> Visualise in monospaced font for best spam-art-o-experience.
11:43:59 <elliott> oerjan: Now ban shachaf.
11:44:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:44:38 -!- oerjan has kicked shachaf Don't sabotage or wonderful spam!.
11:44:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:44:48 <oerjan> *our
11:44:49 <elliott> I agree; one should never sabotage *or* wonderful spam.
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11:45:02 <elliott> Anyway, look at those *patterns*, man.
11:45:07 <elliott> The top half almost looks 3D.
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11:45:26 <shachaf> oerjan: You need to learn the difference between "kick" and "ban",
11:45:37 <elliott> Best part???? You can read the bottom-left up and it's THE SAME SENTENCE.
11:45:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i just thought you deserved a first time warning, is all.
11:46:22 <elliott> (Same for the bottom-right up.)
11:46:26 <shachaf> A first-time warning is a ban without a kick.
11:46:32 <shachaf> Not a kick without a ban.
11:46:39 <elliott> He's right.
11:46:45 <elliott> Do him justice and ban him without a kick.
11:46:50 <elliott> He deserves a proper first-time warning.
11:46:50 <oerjan> *sigh*
11:46:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:47:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*shachaf@*.members.linode.com.
11:47:04 <oerjan> O KAY
11:47:06 <elliott> Excellent.
11:47:08 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:47:10 <elliott> shachaf: Think about what you've done.
11:47:57 <Taneb> I'm trying to find the worst non-symbol font for reading IRC in
11:47:59 <elliott> oerjan: So do I get this much leeway every time I break one of the laws of the universe?
11:48:06 <elliott> Taneb: Zapfino.
11:48:08 <Taneb> So far, the worst is Vladimir Script
11:48:11 <oerjan> maybe. but only then.
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11:48:32 <elliott> oerjan: Have I mentioned I plan to CONTINUALLY IMPROVE Esolang???
11:48:45 <elliott> FOR EXAMPLE
11:48:46 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:48:48 <elliott> You know the language list?
11:48:54 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*shachaf@*.members.linode.com.
11:48:57 <elliott> That's going to become an automatically-generated table from the category, man.
11:49:03 <elliott> You'll be able to SORT by COMPUTATIONAL CLASS.
11:49:07 <oerjan> it seems shachaf may not have thought things through properly.
11:49:12 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:49:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:49:47 <Taneb> Parry Hotter is a pretty weird font for reading IRC in
11:49:58 <Taneb> I'm not sure where I got all these fonts
11:50:04 <ion> Hotter than whom?
11:50:39 <Taneb> Good question
11:51:29 <Taneb> Ooh crikey. elliott, look outside at the weather
11:52:03 <oerjan> just as hexham takes control of our wiki, it is swept away by a tsunami. how sad.
11:52:17 <elliott> Taneb: It's quite weather, yes.
11:55:43 <elliott> oerjan: Do you feel absorbed, yet?
11:57:54 <oerjan> no, i am still stuck in the matrix of solidity.
12:09:39 * Sgeo is turning into a sarcastic person.
12:09:49 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-stm/doc/tutorial.html
12:09:49 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> What a helpful tutorial.
12:10:25 <elliott> Thrilling.
12:10:52 <elliott> So are you going through all the languages you spent approx. 3 seconds with again in reverse chronological order?
12:12:05 <Sgeo> I wasn't entirely aware of me going through these in any particular order relevant to my last language hunt
12:15:31 <elliott> oerjan: Can you *believe* Linode gave me a month and a half for the cost of half a month?!
12:16:17 <oerjan> i think there must be a word for that sort of thing in the illicit drug business.
12:17:23 <elliott> I believe the word is: BARGAIN.
12:17:27 <oerjan> something tells me square root of minus garfield is having technical problems.
12:17:41 <elliott> wfm
12:18:00 <oerjan> well, yesterday.
12:18:22 * oerjan managed to confuse himself a bit there.
12:18:35 <oerjan> it's not a very hard thing to do.
12:18:57 <elliott> YBEING MATRIX
12:18:57 <elliott> O L R O
12:18:57 <elliott> J O U F !
12:18:57 <elliott> N C O S Y
12:18:57 <elliott> E KEDINY OLIDIT
12:19:55 <elliott> wat
12:20:12 <oerjan> i was wondering if you had a 5 line paste limit
12:20:24 <elliott> why, did I miss something?
12:21:06 <oerjan> no, but you didn't maximize height
12:21:21 <ion> In certain moments of boredness i’ve done synchronized screenfuls of sine wavey text as alternating lines with a friend on IRC. :-P
12:21:21 <elliott> SOMETIMES spamart can come in horizontal forms too, you know???
12:21:28 <oerjan> wow!
12:21:54 <oerjan> ion: so are you familiar with the fine art of oko, then
12:21:55 <Taneb> > fromList "hello" <| 'a' <| 'b'
12:21:56 <elliott> ion: I dearly hope to never discover the level of boredom required to think that's fun.
12:21:56 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `<|'Not in scope: `<|'
12:22:08 <elliott> o
12:22:09 <elliott> oko
12:22:10 <elliott> okoko
12:22:11 <elliott> okokoko
12:22:13 <elliott> okokokoko
12:22:14 <elliott> okokokokoko
12:22:16 <elliott> okokokokokoko
12:22:18 <Taneb> > Data.Sequence.fromList "hello" Data.Sequence.<| 'a' Data.Sequence.<| 'b'
12:22:19 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.Sequence.fromList'Not in scope: `Data.Sequence.<|'Not i...
12:22:19 <elliott> okokokokokokoko
12:22:23 <elliott> Taneb: :(
12:22:34 <Taneb> THIS IS IMPORTANT
12:22:42 <elliott> > Seq.fromList
12:22:42 <oerjan> it's also a part of the okoer's burden to be interrupted
12:22:43 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
12:22:43 <lambdabot> ([a] -...
12:23:16 <Taneb> > Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.<| 'a' Seq.<| 'b'
12:23:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Sequence.Seq GHC.Types.Char'
12:23:17 <lambdabot> aga...
12:23:32 <Taneb> > (Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.<| 'a') Seq.<| 'b'
12:23:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Sequence.Seq
12:23:33 <lambdabot> ...
12:23:59 <Taneb> > (Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.|> 'a') Seq.|> 'b'
12:24:00 <oerjan> lambdabot doesn't suffer from overmuch discoverability in its module import choices
12:24:00 <lambdabot> fromList "helloab"
12:24:10 <Taneb> > Seq.fromList "hello" Seq.|> 'a' Seq.|> 'b'
12:24:11 <lambdabot> fromList "helloab"
12:24:13 <Taneb> :)
12:24:19 <Taneb> Thanks, lambdabot
12:24:25 <ion> Thambdabot
12:25:20 <Taneb> :t fold
12:25:21 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `fold'
12:25:27 <Taneb> :t Foldable.fold
12:25:28 <lambdabot> Couldn't find qualified module.
12:25:30 <elliott> ion++
12:25:38 <elliott> Your Finnishness is offset by your Look Around You references.
12:25:41 <oerjan> :t Data.Foldable.fold
12:25:42 <lambdabot> forall (t :: * -> *) m. (Data.Foldable.Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
12:26:10 <Taneb> > Data.Foldable.fold (Seq.fromList "hello") :: String
12:26:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String'
12:26:11 <lambdabot> against inferred typ...
12:26:18 <Taneb> Wait
12:26:20 <Taneb> Damn
12:26:29 <Taneb> That's ruined everything
12:26:30 <elliott> Taneb: Char is not Monoid
12:26:36 <elliott> what semantics do you want?
12:26:48 <elliott> and are you looking for
12:26:51 <elliott> :t Data.Foldable.foldr
12:26:52 <elliott> instead?
12:26:52 <lambdabot> forall a b (t :: * -> *). (Data.Foldable.Foldable t) => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
12:26:58 <ion> > Data.Foldable.foldMap pure (Seq.fromList "hello") :: String
12:26:59 <lambdabot> "hello"
12:27:05 <Taneb> Yesssss
12:27:37 <oerjan> > Data.Foldable.toList (Seq.fromList "hello")
12:27:38 <lambdabot> "hello"
12:28:19 <elliott> I wonder why Traversable requires Foldable.
12:28:20 <ion> > ala' Sum Data.Foldable.foldMap ord (Seq.fromList "hello")
12:28:21 <lambdabot> 532
12:28:27 <elliott> Can you implement Foldable with Traversable?
12:28:33 <elliott> Oh, I think you can.
12:28:53 <elliott> :t fmap (const ()) . Data.Traversable.traverse tell
12:28:54 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a (t :: * -> *). (Applicative f, MonadWriter a f, Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t a -> f ()
12:29:02 <oerjan> :t Data.Traversable.foldMapDefault
12:29:02 <elliott> :t execWriter . Data.Traversable.traverse tell
12:29:03 <lambdabot> forall a m (t :: * -> *). (Data.Traversable.Traversable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
12:29:03 <lambdabot> forall w (t :: * -> *). (Monoid w, Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t w -> w
12:29:05 <elliott> :t execWriter . Data.Traversable.traverse tell
12:29:06 <lambdabot> forall w (t :: * -> *). (Monoid w, Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t w -> w
12:29:10 <elliott> right
12:29:26 <elliott> in the effect order
12:29:27 <oerjan> elliott: not to mention that it's actually a subclass
12:29:40 <elliott> <elliott> I wonder why Traversable requires Foldable.
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12:29:45 <elliott> are there any Foldables that aren't Traversable?
12:29:49 <elliott> I don't really like Foldable.
12:29:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:29:52 <elliott> It's just toList.
12:30:05 <elliott> Although fold is very nice, I have to admit.
12:30:07 <elliott> (I'm a monoid fanboy.)
12:30:48 <oerjan> it's entirely possible to make a tree instance which appends recursively
12:30:55 <oerjan> *mappends
12:31:19 <elliott> oerjan: Right.
12:31:22 <oerjan> which would be more efficient than using toList
12:31:23 <elliott> oerjan: That's why I'm a monoid fanboy.
12:31:36 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that foldMap is MapReduce?
12:31:52 <elliott> Monoids are, like, inherently parallel.
12:33:15 <elliott> I think oerjan thinks I'm weird.
12:33:16 <oerjan> yes, that's why i mentioned that tree thing
12:33:29 <elliott> Or maybe he thinks I'm a genius.
12:33:36 <elliott> Okay, so it's pretty obvious.
12:33:38 <elliott> But it's still cool.
12:33:40 <oerjan> on alternate days.
12:33:50 <Taneb> Why not both at the same time?
12:34:02 <elliott> Also, I think databases are MapReducey monoids.
12:34:03 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe in sort of fizzbuzz fashion?
12:34:22 <elliott> Like, there are databases that don't synchronise all the time with all the DB servers, they just let stuff go through and handle conflicts later.
12:34:27 <elliott> What if conflict resolution is mappend?
12:34:39 <elliott> You send diffs to the database; mempty is the null diff.
12:34:53 <elliott> And it mappends the diffs when two servers submit differing diffs, or something.
12:35:04 <elliott> Like, whoa.
12:35:48 <oerjan> > unwords [case gcd n 6 of 1 -> "er..."; 2 -> "weird"; 3 -> "genius"; 6 -> "weird genius" | n <- [1..]]
12:35:49 <lambdabot> "er... weird genius weird er... weird genius er... weird genius weird er......
12:36:14 <oerjan> that was definitely either weird or genius.
12:36:22 <elliott> What, the database thing?
12:36:35 <oerjan> no, that string
12:36:37 <elliott> That was definitely genius. That's what @'s distributed databases look like. Probably.
12:36:38 <elliott> Oh.
12:36:48 <elliott> Did you know I'm not working on @?
12:36:53 <oerjan> OH NO
12:37:02 <elliott> I sense sarcasm.
12:37:15 <Taneb> THEN WHO IS
12:37:18 <elliott> So if I'm the wiki admin, I get to be an op, right?
12:37:23 <oerjan> he is strong with the force, that guy
12:37:28 <elliott> It's only logical.
12:37:40 <oerjan> graue was never an op.
12:37:47 <elliott> Graue was scary.
12:37:52 <elliott> I'm fluffy.
12:38:05 <elliott> Also, I don't know that what Graue did could technically be called "administrating".
12:38:24 <elliott> Like giving birth and going into a coma for the next seven years is "parenting" :D
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12:39:36 <oerjan> i think he may have been more active before you arrived
12:39:47 <oerjan> wait, you spiked his drink, didn't you.
12:39:50 * elliott has read older pages of the wiki, y'know.
12:39:59 <elliott> I don't think he was active past 2007.
12:40:05 <elliott> That's when he upgraded the wiki and was messing with spam protection.
12:40:13 <oerjan> which coincidentally is when you arrived.
12:40:16 <elliott> The only thing he did after that was to turn on the CAPTCHA for all anonymous users, I think.
12:40:23 <elliott> oerjan: No, that was technically 2006.
12:40:34 <oerjan> only technically.
12:40:40 <elliott> Anyway, I'm going to... like...
12:40:47 <elliott> oerjan: What's the most annoying thing about the wiki?
12:40:49 <elliott> Apart from the spam.
12:40:53 <elliott> And apart from me.
12:42:21 <elliott> oerjan: Come on, there's gotta be a third thing!
12:42:26 <oerjan> tricky.
12:43:02 <Taneb> The fact that there's at least two categories for BF derivatives
12:43:03 <oerjan> i can only think of edits timing out before you submit, but i've sort of adapted to that and i'm not sure it's the wiki's fault anyway
12:43:15 <elliott> oerjan: That shouldn't be present with the new server.
12:43:23 <oerjan> yay
12:43:23 <elliott> oerjan: (It'll also be a lot faster, being in London.)
12:43:34 <oerjan> everything's faster in london.
12:43:39 <elliott> ping london1.linode.com and compare with your ping to esolangs.org.
12:43:40 <Taneb> London, the city of speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed
12:43:42 <oerjan> except when it doesn't change at all.
12:43:47 <elliott> (And then report the figures to me, because I'm interested.)
12:44:50 <oerjan> 52 and 195 ms, respectively
12:45:04 <elliott> Right.
12:45:07 <Taneb> 35 and 173 for me
12:45:24 <elliott> 18 and 158 for me.
12:45:49 <Taneb> (As an aside, pyralspite.net is also 173ms)
12:46:06 <elliott> Yeah, pyralspite is in America.
12:46:10 <elliott> And probably dying soon.
12:46:19 <lifthrasiir> elliott: is a rtt average enough?
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12:46:32 <lifthrasiir> 463 and 468 for me.
12:46:47 <Taneb> lifthrasiir: where are you?
12:46:51 <elliott> lifthrasiir: ouch
12:46:55 <lifthrasiir> Seoul, South Korea ;)
12:46:56 <elliott> lifthrasiir: my condolences
12:46:59 -!- cheater__ has joined.
12:47:03 <Taneb> Well, London's still better
12:47:11 <elliott> I guess that's the price you pay for the kinds of speeds you get in that part of the globe :)
12:47:21 <lifthrasiir> lol
12:47:51 <lifthrasiir> well my ISP has been notoriously slow for certain abroad networks
12:47:59 <lifthrasiir> (Korea Telecom, to be exact)
12:48:29 <elliott> Well, http://www.kt.com/eng/ takes about 4 years to load here, so I'll agree with that.
12:48:34 <oerjan> there's like this kind of sonic shock when packets leave south korea, because of the sudden decrease in speed.
12:48:40 <elliott> Hey, penguins.
12:51:20 <elliott> oerjan: Fourth annoyance???? C'mon I can fix ANYTHING
12:51:42 <Taneb> How lame the forum is.
12:51:51 <elliott> The forum is dying, rest in peace.
12:52:14 <elliott> Did you know that Graue is actually a pretty nice dude???
12:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you create categories,.
12:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS why are , and . so close together on this keyboard.
12:55:04 <elliott> I think he might have become a nicer dude in the 7 intervening years???
12:55:14 <elliott> Can you believe the wiki is 7 years old?
12:55:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Only one way to find out!
12:55:36 <Taneb> There has been an esolang since 1972
12:55:47 <elliott> Longer than that.
12:56:06 <elliott> Well...
12:56:10 <elliott> INTERCAL was the first designed esolang.
12:56:12 <elliott> But http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
12:56:35 <Taneb> P'' was an academic tool intended for research
12:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://coq.inria.fr/pylons/contribs/view/Topology/v8.3
12:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> This should be fun.
12:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> By which I mean impossible to understand.
12:57:34 <Taneb> L6... maybe
12:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> At least it's better than the ZFC one, in that the comments and names aren't in French,
13:02:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:05:38 <elliott> oerjan is leaving because he couldn't think of a fourth.
13:05:42 <elliott> It's SHAME.
13:05:49 <Phantom_Hoover> 0.25.
13:06:39 <elliott> What.
13:07:02 <Taneb> a fourth == one quater == 0.25
13:07:23 <elliott> Oh.
13:07:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg???
13:07:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yno.
13:07:57 <elliott> what
13:08:15 * Phantom_Hoover notes that that Coq file contains Ensembles and Families, both of which appear to be Coqy sets.
13:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, the latter doesn't actually appear to be defined anywhere,
13:09:04 <elliott> http://coq.inria.fr/stdlib/Coq.Sets.Ensembles.html
13:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Latter, elliott, latter.
13:09:32 <elliott> Ensemble is just -> Prop.
13:09:51 <elliott> Link to the file that mentions families?
13:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> http://coq.inria.fr/pylons/contribs/files/Topology/v8.3/Topology.TopologicalSpaces.html
13:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Require Export Families.
13:10:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Later, open_family_union : forall F : Family point_set,
13:10:57 <elliott> http://coq.inria.fr/pylons/contribs/view/ZornsLemma/v8.3
13:11:01 <elliott> The library depends on my ZornsLemma contribution. The provided
13:11:02 <elliott> makefile expects compiled files to be present in ../ZornsLemma; if you
13:11:02 <elliott> have them somewhere else, first run
13:11:02 <elliott> coq_makefile -R /path/to/ZornsLemma ZornsLemma -R . Topology *.v > makefile
13:11:02 <elliott> before running make.
13:11:04 <elliott> --Topology thing
13:11:14 <elliott> Families.v - operations on families of subsets of X, i.e. Ensemble (Ensemble X)
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13:12:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Coq tactic proofs are so readable.
13:12:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Pfft, the proofs are a technicality.
13:12:31 <elliott> (I was being sarcastic.)
13:12:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So was I.
13:12:51 <Taneb> I wasn't
13:12:55 <Taneb> I was being silent
13:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> open_full : open Full_set
13:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm... pretty sure that's not an axiom of a topological space.
13:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait, yes it is.
13:14:46 -!- cheater_ has quit (Excess Flood).
13:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I like how the first two proofs have just been wrangling the Coq definitions into agreeing with the obvious.
13:15:41 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
13:15:56 <ion> What’s kaksikymment.ogg supposed to be?
13:16:03 -!- cheater_ has joined.
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13:16:32 <elliott> ion: An ordinary Finnish word.
13:16:40 <elliott> Kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen.
13:16:57 <ion> eh
13:17:11 <elliott> If it wasn't a Finnish word, how could we possibly have a Finn saying it on record?
13:17:13 <ion> Yes, it’s obviously Anordinaryfinnishword.
13:18:50 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:18:53 <elliott> ion: Perhaps this will help:
13:18:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=prev&oldid=20966
13:18:59 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=prev&oldid=21366
13:19:00 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=next&oldid=20966
13:19:02 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=next&oldid=21366
13:19:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&direction=next&oldid=21521
13:20:01 <ion> k
13:20:04 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
13:20:38 <elliott> You say k, but beneath your steely Finnish exterior there is a heart sparking with joy at the poetry.
13:21:39 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Client Quit).
13:21:54 * elliott is a Finnologist.
13:23:17 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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13:30:57 <fizzie> A Finnologist, or a "Finker" like they colloquially say.
13:31:41 <Taneb> Best ever headline: http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/late-post-is-not-that-late-1.924528
13:31:57 <elliott> fizzie: Yes.
13:32:03 <elliott> Taneb: :D
13:32:17 -!- elliott has set topic: LATE POST ‘IS NOT THAT LATE’ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:35:25 <fizzie> What's this, you have a newspaper in Hexham?
13:35:33 <fizzie> With a *website*!?
13:35:41 <Taneb> Yep
13:35:52 <Taneb> It's the best newspaper in Northumberland
13:36:05 <fizzie> And a professional-looking website, not just any site.
13:36:49 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's not really just or Hexhamites.
13:36:51 <elliott> *for
13:36:51 * Phantom_Hoover notes that Taneb is apparently a cricketer.
13:36:59 <elliott> It goes to a lot of places. Well, for English values of a lot.
13:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/students-pass-classic-test-1.288062?referrerPath=home/2.3307
13:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Also a dweeb,.
13:37:10 <elliott> Also that site design is new or something.
13:37:42 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/clean-up-causes-disruption-1.924484?referrerPath=home
13:37:43 <Phantom_Hoover> OMG it has his GCSE results.
13:37:52 <Taneb> Really!?
13:37:56 <elliott> The Hexham Courant are true masters of the headline form.
13:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Well no, it has the number of C to A* grades.
13:38:18 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/opinion/hextol/no-crumbs-of-comfort-in-brown-bread-1.924426?referrerPath=opinion/hextol
13:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the measure of how good you are at writing your name on the papers.
13:38:39 <Taneb> Also, I do not play cricket.
13:38:41 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/opinion/hextol/coffee-brewed-from-powder-is-still-my-cup-of-tea-1.919729?referrerPath=opinion/hextol
13:38:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude look at these headlines.
13:38:54 <Taneb> Being a dweeb I'll admit to
13:39:01 <elliott> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/sport/other/cool-dude-nathan-takes-to-the-ice-for-europeans-1.924439?referrerPath=home
13:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it still can't beat the EEN's "trams trams trams trams TRAMS fucking TRAMS"#
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13:39:28 <Taneb> I will now have LUNCH
13:39:31 -!- Taneb has changed nick to LUNCH.
13:39:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry you have to agree that LATE POST ‘IS NOT THAT LATE’ is one of the all-time classic headlines.
13:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
13:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
13:39:41 -!- LUNCH has changed nick to Taneb|Lunch.
13:39:42 <elliott> It should win a Pulitzer.
13:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> it doesn't have any tram headlines today.
13:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, that one is good.
13:40:13 <elliott> <Taneb> Best ever headline: http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/news-at-a-glance/late-post-is-not-that-late-1.924528
13:40:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "BNP chief wades into city Bondage punks tribunal"
13:40:19 <elliott> It's what brought this up.
13:40:23 <elliott> wha
13:40:23 <elliott> t
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13:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> "As her alter-ego, Mish Bondage, she appears in pictures on the internet wearing leather and fishnets, sporting tattoos and with bright red hair."
13:41:07 <elliott> how is bnp involved,
13:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this some other internet where that's worthy of the appelation "bondage punk".
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13:42:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's print news media.
13:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the BNP fired her or something and she's not happy?
13:42:26 <elliott> She worked for the BNP?
13:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Feathers fly as city set to deny gull service"
13:42:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, as an assistant or something.
13:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I've heard that the seagulls in Edinburgh are unusually large, but I've yet to see any evidence of it.
13:43:32 <elliott> http://www.sado-nation.com/
13:43:34 <elliott> SKULLS, MAN.
13:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> They're, like, a metaphor, man.
13:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> For the skulls inside all of us.
13:44:46 * Phantom_Hoover remembers being in primary school, when after break the seagulls would descend en masse to eat any food left in the playground.
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13:45:11 <Phantom_Hoover> "Shop worker held up with broken bottle"
13:45:14 <fizzie> "The seagulls of Seague ull loudly at the sea" -- old adage.
13:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> No wonder it was broken.
13:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
13:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> my god
13:45:42 <Phantom_Hoover> their review section
13:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> has stars
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13:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> but they just show it
13:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> by putting asterisks at the end of the summary.
13:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "
13:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Review: Paul Carrack, Queens Hall
13:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Like a bull in a china shop. **** "#
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13:54:09 <Taneb> I have finnished my lunch.
13:54:18 <Taneb> I did not, however, Norwegian it
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13:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePhantomHoover
13:56:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Bastard!
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14:32:10 <elliott> DIIIPEEEEERT
14:33:01 <kallisti> hi
14:37:52 <elliott> No.
14:38:32 <elliott> kallisti: All your wiki pages belong to ME now.
14:41:26 <Gregor> kallisti: (Also: your base, your soul)
14:41:57 <elliott> Gregor: There goes [[Glass]] and [[ORK]].
14:42:07 <elliott> I would be more careful about your remarks in future!!!
14:42:24 <Gregor> :(
14:45:21 <kallisti> elliott: nope! I have Wiki pages of my own!
14:45:24 <kallisti> I just haven't added them.
14:45:33 <elliott> You know [[Dupdog]]?
14:45:39 <kallisti> no, what's that?
14:45:41 <elliott> That page LIVES AND DIES BY MY DICTATORIAL ORDER now.
14:45:45 <kallisti> that's fine.
14:45:48 <kallisti> it's kind of shitty anyway.
14:45:52 <elliott> You're kind of shitty.
14:45:55 <kallisti> like, I would actually prefer that it be rewritten.
14:45:58 <kallisti> or something
14:46:00 <kallisti> but I haven't
14:46:19 <kallisti> also I've got BRAND NEW IDEAS REGARDING DUPDOGOIDS (yes that's what they're called now)
14:47:02 <elliott> I think a Dupdog proof of TCness/TinCness would be theoretically interesting.
14:47:08 <elliott> It reminds me very much of 1D CAs.
14:47:26 <kallisti> YES. if only someone could go do that..
14:47:33 <kallisti> someone with real knowledges
14:47:37 <kallisti> (not me)
14:48:44 <kallisti> elliott: basically I've got an idea for a new language where there's a 2-argument instruction that substitutes characters
14:48:54 <kallisti> so the string "sab" would replace all a's with b's
14:49:07 <kallisti> it mights it a bit easier to actually do something.
14:49:27 <kallisti> *makes
14:49:47 <Taneb> ~!~ --infinite loop in dupdog?
14:49:56 <elliott> @tell oerjan You could try and figure out whether Dupdog is TC or not. You know, if you wanted to.
14:49:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:50:02 <kallisti> lol
14:50:08 <kallisti> elliott: thanks for reminding him
14:50:14 <kallisti> he may have forgotten how interested he was in the topic.
14:50:28 <Taneb> ~ !~!~
14:50:38 <Taneb> ! ~!~~!~ damn
14:50:54 <kallisti> I was also considering an instruction called ", that removes all preceding characters up to the next " (or all the way to the end of the string, causing it to terminate)
14:51:09 <kallisti> I think that combined with the substition operator would be TC. but I'm not sure.
14:51:51 <elliott> You're not meant to make it easier.
14:52:22 <elliott> What other dupdog programs have been written apart from that hello world?
14:52:23 <Taneb> ~ !~~!~!~~!~
14:52:42 <Taneb> ! ~~!~!~~!~~~!~!~~!~
14:54:26 <kallisti> elliott: well I would like to make it easier but make it similar in concept.
14:54:41 <kallisti> other variants could have different goals. -shrug-
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14:55:13 <Taneb> ??~~!!
14:55:58 <Taneb> ? !??~~
14:56:09 <Taneb> ! ??~~??~~
14:56:27 <Taneb> ? !??!!??
14:56:35 <Taneb> ! ??!!????!!??
14:56:37 <Taneb> damn
14:56:40 <kallisti> elliott: and still writing programs with those operators is still going to be difficult...
14:56:53 <kallisti> (in a good way)
14:58:08 <elliott> I don't care about program-writing.
14:59:24 <Taneb> ~!
14:59:27 <Taneb> !!
14:59:30 <Taneb> !!
14:59:40 <Taneb> '\2'
14:59:47 <Taneb> :(
14:59:48 <kallisti> hmmm, I guess with a substition operator it becomes something like a production system?
15:00:15 <kallisti> but... where the input string is also the sequence of production rules.
15:01:23 <kallisti> it's also limited to (presumably) a finite alphabet for production rules, since it only substitutes a single character rather than an arbitrary string.
15:04:14 <kallisti> though I guess an infinite alphabet is possible too
15:04:25 <elliott> The only thing that needs changing about dupdog is the output system.
15:04:50 <kallisti> I'm just exploring different ideas. I'm not trying to "fix" dupdog at the moment.
15:04:57 <kallisti> what would you recommend for the output.
15:05:15 <elliott> Well, the decimal output is ugly.
15:05:23 <elliott> So is the ASCII thing.
15:05:29 <kallisti> ah, yes, I agree.
15:05:39 <elliott> Ideally it'd be something like mfit can output 0 bits and shanty can output 1 bits and that's it, or something.
15:05:59 <elliott> It might make coherent ASCII output nearly-impossible, but it exposes the structure of the computation better.
15:06:10 <elliott> And it's not like dupdog programs that do coherent ASCII output are going to be written anyway.
15:06:18 <kallisti> would the bit still be based on the string length?
15:06:35 <kallisti> hmmm, what if counted a particular character in the source code?
15:06:35 <elliott> <elliott> Ideally it'd be something like mfit can output 0 bits and shanty can output 1 bits and that's it, or something.
15:06:36 <elliott> I'd just have
15:06:38 <kallisti> and used that as the output bit.
15:06:41 <elliott> mfit: If the character is something else, 0 is output.
15:06:44 <elliott> shanty: If the character is something else, 1 is output.
15:06:45 <kallisti> oh
15:06:45 <elliott> and leave it at that.
15:06:46 <kallisti> right
15:06:48 <elliott> Or something.
15:06:53 <kallisti> er
15:06:56 <kallisti> I was thinking of bytes. :P
15:07:04 <elliott> I wasn't.
15:07:39 <kallisti> I think counting a particular character in the source string and outputting that as a byte would be a bit less impossible for output. but as far as I can tell making dupdog sensible is out of the question.
15:07:45 <kallisti> without making a completely different language.
15:08:27 <elliott> Which is why my suggestion brings it closer to a computational model than something trying to be a language.
15:08:49 <kallisti> yes
15:09:51 <kallisti> though character counting output is a perfectly fine computational model as well. -shrug-
15:09:57 <elliott> Notably, shanty/? can be implemented by flipping a bit.
15:10:08 <elliott> If you consider "reading forwards" vs. "reading backwards" a boolean interpreter state.
15:10:15 <elliott> That might simplify analysis greatly.
15:10:22 <kallisti> yes I've considered how to handle string reversal.
15:10:28 <kallisti> in that regard.
15:10:44 <kallisti> or, say, in Haskell if you're using Seq to represent the string
15:10:54 <kallisti> ? would just alternate between viewR and viewL
15:10:59 <elliott> Additionally,
15:11:10 <elliott> After a duplication the length of the source code is always even.
15:11:14 <kallisti> yes
15:11:21 <elliott> So I wonder if you could not implement duplication as some control structure that doesn't actually duplicate the program.
15:11:28 <elliott> But instead loops it twice and maintains some state of is-even-or-not.
15:11:36 <kallisti> also, in a character counting system, the number of that character would always be even
15:11:42 <kallisti> which would make odd number output trickier
15:11:44 <elliott> That might tease enough structure out of it to look like an actual language.
15:12:24 <kallisti> the difficulty with that would be the character transposition operator, I don't recall the symbol I used...
15:12:31 <kallisti> hm
15:12:34 <kallisti> well no
15:12:47 <kallisti> that's just a three-valued... value.
15:12:56 <kallisti> I think
15:14:08 <kallisti> the three different states determine your interpretation of characters.
15:15:17 <kallisti> however, looping twice doesn't work I think
15:15:47 <elliott> I didn't mean it would be that simple.
15:15:54 <kallisti> because, if you reverse, duplicate, and then maybe chop off some more input characters before reversing
15:16:15 <elliott> I just meant that if you turn reversal into an "IP switch", and massage duplication into a control structure of some sort, you'd get a lot further.
15:16:31 <kallisti> yes
15:16:41 <kallisti> reversal can definitely be a boolean.
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15:17:52 <kallisti> it would be nice if it maintain a palindrome.
15:18:01 <kallisti> basically that would require reversing after each operation.
15:18:26 <kallisti> I mean
15:18:34 <kallisti> not nice because it makes it a more interesting computational model
15:18:38 <kallisti> nice because I like palindromes. :P
15:20:25 * kallisti good priorities in language design.
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15:29:23 <kallisti> the rules gnome uses to go from single monitor to two monitors is pretty stupid.
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15:46:09 <kallisti> or maybe it's X?
15:46:10 <kallisti> I don't know.
15:50:30 <fizzie> Which rules are that?
15:52:02 <fizzie> Or 'those', perhaps.
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15:52:53 <kallisti> well, when I plug in a monitor to my laptop
15:53:04 <kallisti> it decides that I wanted the right workspaces to be on the right monitor of the left workspace...
15:53:07 <kallisti> and... I don't want that.
15:53:31 <kallisti> I divide my workspaces via what I'm doing at the time. Why would I suddenly want everything to get shuffled around so that I have to reorganize it?
15:55:07 * kallisti doesn't have the focus to use two monitors as two different "workspaces"
15:55:13 <kallisti> like they seem to think I want to do.
15:55:17 <fizzie> I'm not sure what that means. I mean, IIRC gnome just has a set of workspaces that span the whole screen (all monitors).
15:55:25 <kallisti> yes it does
15:55:37 <kallisti> switching workspaces switches all monitors to the new workspace
15:55:43 <kallisti> but when you connect a new monitor
15:55:50 <kallisti> well, I have a 2x2 grid of workspaces
15:56:07 <kallisti> it takes the windows on the right workspace and moves them to the second monitor on the left workspace....
15:56:14 <kallisti> ...I don't know how else to explain it, lol.
15:56:56 <kallisti> so I have "dick around" stuff in the top left, and job stuff on the top right.
15:57:05 <fizzie> Oh, okay. Well, that's pure Gnome, anyways. (I would've expected it to just change the size of the workspaces, but admittedly I haven't used a grid either.)
15:57:08 <kallisti> when I plug in a monitor, all of my work stuff jumps to the second monitor on my "dick around" workspace.
15:57:27 <kallisti> I guess I could fix that by using the bottom left workspace for work.
15:58:27 <fizzie> I suppose it's trying to be clever. Or alternatively just maintaining the window locations in the virtual space you get if you'd lay out the workspaces physically the way you have them configured.
15:58:43 <kallisti> yes that's what it's doing
15:58:45 <kallisti> the second one.
15:59:01 <kallisti> virtually each workspace is now two screens side by side.
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15:59:17 <kallisti> you can even see this in the animation to move workspaces.
15:59:36 <fizzie> Well, it has a sort of consistent logic, even if it's not the sort of logic you'd like.
15:59:42 <fizzie> Does it then make a set of empty "right workspaces"?
15:59:50 <kallisti> yep.
16:00:11 <kallisti> so yeah I guess I'll just use the left workspaces to organize between work vs. not-work
16:00:37 <kallisti> though sometimes I use 3 workspaces, rarely 4
16:00:49 <kallisti> the 3rd one would be for school.
16:01:13 <kallisti> but getting my work stuff and school stuff temporarily disorganized isn't a big deal.
16:01:24 <kallisti> but when work + fun mixes together I end up with like 11-12 windows to sort out. :P
16:01:38 <fizzie> A four-high stack would work, though I suppose that'd look bad in the switcher and maybe if you navigate it in terms of up/down/left/right instead of numbers.
16:01:52 <kallisti> yes I use the arrow keys.
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16:02:23 <kallisti> but, I can't complain too much. previously I was only using one workspace.
16:02:34 <kallisti> and then I decided, hey, why don't I use this organizational feature provided to me.
16:02:39 <kallisti> and now it's awesome.
16:02:54 <fizzie> I used to have a horizontal strip 1-8 with Gnome's WM; I wonder if adding a monitor there would shuffle everything to the first half.
16:03:28 <kallisti> my guess is that it would take each even workspace and merge it with the previous odd one.
16:03:34 <kallisti> but I don't know how it works exactly.
16:04:54 <kallisti> it could be a special case for a horizontal length of 2.
16:05:00 <kallisti> ...but that seems weird.
16:06:50 <kallisti> I usually don't even utilize my second monitor for anything other than watching Youtube videos
16:07:10 <kallisti> or occasionally when I want to look at two windows at the same time.
16:07:48 <kallisti> I'd say the productivity boost from a second monitor is minimal at best
16:08:07 <kallisti> if anything it simply lets me not have to make a decision between watching movies/videos or getting work done.
16:08:18 <kallisti> which is a benefit in itself, I suppose.
16:09:11 <kallisti> but, anyway, that's enough of that. TIME TO DO MATH HOMEWORK
16:09:37 <kallisti> because in real life I have ARBITRARILY INDEFINITE WORKSPACES
16:10:12 <kallisti> and it doesn't shuffle my windows around when I plug in a second mon -- okay this analogy isn't working anymore.
16:29:17 <elliott> What tmie is it in AMEREREIRERIERICA?
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16:30:24 <kallisti> elliott: which america
16:30:27 <kallisti> 11:30 EST
16:31:01 <kallisti> (EST is Real American Time(tm))
16:31:12 <elliott> It seems everybody is in EST. Confirm?
16:31:32 <Taneb> California is GMT-8
16:32:34 <elliott> Anyway, whatever North Carolina is in, or so I hear.
16:32:48 <kallisti> also New York, and Georgia (where I live)
16:32:52 <kallisti> the only important places in the US.
16:32:55 <kallisti> ignore the west coast.
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16:34:29 <elliott> I meant, that's the timezone I care about.
16:36:54 <kallisti> elliott: yes me too.
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17:00:15 <Gregor> I do indeed happen to be in EST.
17:00:21 <elliott> mysql> delete from text where old_id in (1967,1968,1969,1970,1971,1972,8168,2165,8204,1926,1945,1950,1964,1965,8164);
17:00:21 <elliott> Query OK, 15 rows affected (0.05 sec)
17:00:24 <elliott> SCARY.
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17:00:44 <elliott> Finally the zombie namespace is purged.
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17:13:29 <itidus20> i am about to say something which i know that to really learn the answers i would have to actually do some research
17:13:31 <itidus20> but anyway
17:14:32 <Gregor> HOW IS BABBY FORMED
17:15:22 <itidus20> i wonder how they came up with the standard instruction set as we see it today.. MOV(LOAD and STORE i guess?), CMP, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, INT, RET etc
17:16:31 <itidus20> i suppose i would learn it was an evolutionary process
17:17:03 <zzo38> I wanted to implement questions with text inputs in Internet Quiz Engine, but am unsure exactly the way of doing so
17:17:39 <zzo38> itidus20: We could also experiment with alternative instruction sets, which is sometimes done such as in esolang wiki and so on
17:18:24 <itidus20> zzo38: as if a community could be formed around such an absurd idea as that
17:19:18 <elliott> itidus20: Take a look at the first few programmable computers' instruction sets.
17:19:25 <elliott> It's been a long, slow haul from there.
17:19:30 <elliott> And not all that much has changed.
17:19:30 <zzo38> O, you think it is like absurd idea...
17:19:38 <elliott> (Basic instruction set-wise.)
17:28:28 <kallisti> Babbage's Analytical Engine is largely the same basic premise.
17:28:50 <itidus20> with wiki's help i think i found the starting point (sort of)
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17:33:04 <itidus20> so pascal made an adding machine, which could subtract using 9's compliment
17:33:10 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
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17:33:36 <itidus20> "followed by the invention of the first four-operation calculator by Gottfried Leibniz."
17:34:58 <elliott> mysql> optimize table abuse_filter,abuse_filter_action,abuse_filter_history,abuse_filter_log,archive,category,categorylinks,change_tag,cu_changes,cu_log,external_user,externallinks,filearchive,hitcounter,image,imagelinks,interwiki,ipblocks,iwlinks,job,l10n_cache,langlinks,log_search,logging,module_deps,msg_resource,msg_resource_links,objectcache,oldimage,page,page_props,page_restrictions,pagelinks,protected_titles,querycache,querycache_info,query
17:34:58 <elliott> cachetwo,recentchanges,redirect,revision,searchindex,site_stats,tag_summary,templatelinks,text,trackbacks,transcache,updatelog,uploadstash,user,user_former_groups,user_groups,user_newtalk,user_properties,valid_tag,watchlist;
17:35:00 * elliott zzzzzz
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17:36:15 <Gregor> elliott: Pff, who needs optimized tables.
17:36:54 <elliott> Man, how the hell are you meant to pick a buffer pool size for MySQL?
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17:37:09 <itidus20> hmm
17:37:11 <zzo38> Can't you tell it to optimize all of them in a single command? Or does it have no such things?
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17:37:29 <elliott> zzo38: Probably, but I was too lazy to figure out how.
17:37:37 <elliott> Gregor: You know things about MySQL, right???
17:37:48 <Gregor> Uhh, no.
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17:38:42 <elliott> Gregor: LIES.
17:38:47 <itidus20> i had an idea once which i have not discarded about having a computer as an ingame object akin to a potion, a sword, a key or a shield
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17:39:06 <itidus20> i think this idea, while it may have been done before, is probably quite novel
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17:40:02 <itidus20> Now, upon reading this stuff, the ideas are coming in greater number.
17:41:02 <itidus20> You could upgrade the computer through the course of the game, starting with a Pascaline, then a Stepped Reckoner, gradually building up to an electronic laptop
17:41:43 <zzo38> OK make up some game like this.
17:41:46 <itidus20> In an rpg you could have a player class who could operate a computer
17:41:59 <Gregor> s/electronic/mechanical/
17:42:25 <itidus20> hmmm
17:42:32 <itidus20> hehe
17:43:12 <elliott> I bet olsner knows about MySQL.
17:43:20 <itidus20> and.. when visiting an armory you could get software for use in battle.
17:44:36 <itidus20> I actually got this idea (unconcious plagiarism) from someone asking the naruto comic artist if he would ever put computers in the naruto world, and he said something like, well maybe 8bit
17:45:06 <itidus20> although i don't watch naruto, just heard in passing
17:46:39 <itidus20> Gregor: that sounds curiously steampunk
17:46:58 <Gregor> I was really just mocking your use of a moot adjective.
17:47:38 <itidus20> ahh.. yes
17:47:41 <Gregor> "Steampunk" really is just a poorly-named nostalgia for mechanical technology (having nothing more or less to do with steam than electronics does, typically).
17:48:07 <elliott> TODO, http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=8387
17:48:22 <elliott> Oh no, someone said steampunk.
17:48:45 <Gregor> Only in mockery!
17:49:09 <itidus20> uh.. yeah.. only in mockery
17:49:38 <Gregor> Have I mentioned that I now own an ENORMOUS steampunk-styled My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic canvas bag?
17:49:44 <Gregor> *elliott's brain explodes*
17:49:58 <elliott> It's ok. You will die before me.
17:52:07 <Gregor> http://www.welovefine.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/new_bags.jpg // isn't it glorious?
17:52:27 <itidus20> oh dear he may be serious
17:53:13 <Gregor> Came with the hat X-D
17:53:39 <itidus20> they're wearing bronze framed goggles
17:53:44 <olsner> elliott: indeed I know everything
17:53:58 <olsner> mysql is an SQL database
17:54:48 <Gregor> olsner: No, it's a relational database for which the access language is based on SQL.
17:56:12 <elliott> No.
17:56:17 <elliott> MySQL does not meet the relational criteria.
17:56:40 <elliott> It's a database with some aspects of the relational model for which the access language is based on SQL (which is not relational either).
17:56:53 <elliott> It also wants SO MUCH RAM HOLY SHIT
17:57:48 <elliott> You know, MediaWiki's Bugzilla is the only tolerable Bugzilla I have *ever* seen.
17:58:26 <Gregor> I thought "tolerable" and "Bugzilla" were incompatible.
17:58:36 <elliott> Gregor: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6200
17:58:42 <elliott> Gregor: The trick is that it looks absolutely nothing like Bugzilla whatsoever.
17:59:03 <Gregor> That's kinda funny given that it's associated with a wiki that nobody can figure out how to configure to not look like Wikipedia.
17:59:13 <elliott> Even the search page is carefully styled to look like MW. It's like someone went in to try and desperately purge all traces of Bugzillatude from it.
17:59:51 <elliott> @faq Can Haskell produce a MediaWiki website that doesn't look like Wikipedia?
17:59:51 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
17:59:53 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell
18:00:16 <elliott> (HaskellWiki is actually just ridiculously well-formatted in general: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia)
18:01:02 <itidus20> the biggest limit in all these things is the display itself
18:01:30 <Gregor> elliott: Wow, is this actually MW?
18:01:56 <elliott> Gregor: Yep.
18:02:10 <Gregor> elliott: I can't even find any evidence of MWness ... I'm impressed.
18:02:18 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Haskell&action=history gives it away
18:02:26 <itidus20> it would be great if we could all have 24" e-ink monitors for reading
18:02:30 <Gregor> Eeyup.
18:02:37 <elliott> But yeah, it's literally *the* single non-terrible third-party MW design I've ever seen.
18:03:15 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Special:Version ;; this also gives it away :P
18:03:41 <elliott> Hey, I should install SyntaxHighlight on Esolang.
18:04:02 <Gregor> Only if it supports Brainfuck.
18:04:07 <itidus20> infact i think it would be a good investment if a nations government subsidized the development and distribution of gigantic e-ink monitors which can be connected via vga port
18:04:56 <elliott> VGA? Are you serious?
18:05:09 <elliott> (Also: You realise governments fund research, right?)
18:05:11 <itidus20> hmmmm
18:05:19 <itidus20> ok i guess not vga >.<
18:05:39 <itidus20> i haven't actually held an e-ink device in person but from what i read they are just so cool
18:06:26 <Gregor> lol
18:07:23 <itidus20> maybe theres already existing e-ink devices and no need for a giant one
18:08:42 <itidus20> but because they're so cool.. because you can actually read books on them.. there seems to be efforts to keep them away from generalized video data
18:09:36 <itidus20> ....... im just gonna shut up... maybe ill be able to say something true when i return
18:10:46 <elliott> itidus20: e-ink has a terrible refresh rate.
18:10:54 <elliott> Many many times lower than what even simple animation requires.
18:11:05 <elliott> A mouse pointer on e-ink would be awful.
18:11:09 <itidus20> elliott: yeah.. its like the ultimate tradeoff against a video monitor
18:11:11 <elliott> It is also terrible at colour.
18:11:19 <elliott> Look at Pixel Qi displays.
18:11:31 <elliott> Those can do backlight-less e-inky stuff and normal display stuff.
18:11:57 <itidus20> hmm wow
18:12:25 <elliott> Gregor: I bet you know aaaall about writing MediaWiki extensions.
18:12:50 <itidus20> theres actually nothing wrong with the esolangs.org look though
18:13:19 <elliott> I'm not looking to change the look. Although the default skin will become Vector thanks to the MW upgrade.
18:13:23 <elliott> (Vector is the skin Wikipedia uses.)
18:13:32 <itidus20> ooh
18:13:38 -!- maki has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:13:49 <itidus20> ah yes now i remember why i brought up that topic
18:13:59 <elliott> compare: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version
18:14:09 <itidus20> theres only so much you can do on the software side of things before you need new hardware to improve the appearance of a website
18:18:11 <elliott> @ping
18:18:11 <lambdabot> pong
18:18:16 <Gregor> elliott: Having written zero of them, yes.
18:18:18 <Gregor> @raping
18:18:18 <lambdabot> pong
18:19:47 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:27:32 -!- monqy has joined.
18:29:45 -!- derdon has joined.
18:35:01 -!- elliott has joined.
18:35:53 <Gregor> OK, why am I disconnecting and reconnecting every five minuets X_X
18:36:05 <Gregor> (From my BNC)
18:36:27 <Gregor> Each minuet taking about five minutes, I'm reconnecting every 25 minutes or so.
18:36:30 <elliott> I wouldn't worry about it. Minuets can last quite a while.
18:36:33 <elliott> Oh.
18:42:01 <zzo38> Change the default skin to whatever you want it to be.
18:42:32 <monqy> what is the best default skin
18:42:36 <zzo38> I prefer Nostalgia skin but I could change that in the user preferences; you said it already has that.
18:43:46 <itidus20> the secret to a good wiki skin is that you forget the wiki has a skin at all
18:43:58 <itidus20> >:-)
18:44:10 <monqy> oh
18:45:10 <zzo38> Yes, you could install SyntaxHighlight. Possibly even a new namespace to define custom syntax highlighters?
18:46:04 <itidus20> is syntax highlighting helpful?
18:46:24 <zzo38> Would there be some mode which makes it replace the > on the left of a literate Haskell code with a vertical border running on there while keeping it > at front of each line in the source of the page?
18:46:31 <itidus20> one may notice that textbooks tend to shirk syntax highlighting
18:46:46 <itidus20> you could put it down to printing costs but i doubt it's that
18:47:03 -!- calamari has joined.
18:47:06 <itidus20> i'm just airing bits of wisdom :D
18:47:12 <monqy> yes
18:47:27 <zzo38> Programs such as WEB do prettyprinting of Pascal codes even in books without colors
18:48:48 <elliott> hi calamari! your technical support bill will be $200
18:49:29 <itidus20> it may be possible that syntax highlighting is tempting when in an environment with 100s of syntaxes floating around
18:50:04 <itidus20> or it may be a way to make up for the fact that a monitor is a terrible way to read
18:51:32 <itidus20> i admit that IDEs do it
18:51:53 <itidus20> which is a good point in it's defence
18:51:58 <zzo38> But I suppose you don't really need syntax highlighting if you don't want it.
18:52:38 <itidus20> im just wondering whether it actually helps
18:53:32 <zzo38> However, you should install a addon where you have something like <program filename="..."> ... </program> where it is raw codes like <pre> does in MediaWiki and then has a download link for that code; it would help with some of the stuff in esolang wiki. But there should be another thing too, download entire source such as in a literate Haskell program.
18:53:55 <itidus20> i guess what it helps with is searching
18:54:07 <zzo38> And then install <math> as well as my own <tex>
18:54:17 <itidus20> like uh... searching the screen for a particular type of token
18:54:33 <itidus20> then you can invoke your ability to focus on an individual colour
18:56:54 <itidus20> grudgingly accepts it is helpful
18:57:57 <monqy> hi
18:58:43 <itidus20> someone on the wiki talk page mentioned "Syntax highlighting for English/Natural language"
19:02:15 <calamari> elliott: cool I just passed Go, so I can pay you .. here are $200 monopoly^Wfederal reserve notes.
19:03:54 <calamari> elliott: did I cause you some wiki-headaches?
19:04:02 <elliott> yes, the namespace stuff :P
19:05:11 <calamari> I thought you weren't going to copy that
19:05:32 <elliott> I didn't, but the page entries still got in
19:05:37 <calamari> lol
19:05:45 <elliott> so I had to readd the namespace, delete them, remove the namespace, and obliterate the changes from the DB
19:29:35 <elliott> @ping
19:29:36 <elliott> @ping
19:29:36 <lambdabot> pong
19:29:36 <elliott> @ping
19:29:36 <lambdabot> pong
19:29:36 <lambdabot> pong
19:29:36 <elliott> @ping
19:29:37 <lambdabot> pong
19:29:42 <elliott> ok thats enough pong
19:33:35 <Gregor> @pink
19:33:35 <lambdabot> pong
19:47:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:48:21 <oerjan> @tell elliott I may have tried before, you know.
19:48:22 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:55:40 <oerjan> <Taneb> I did not, however, Norwegian it <-- what, no brunost? that's unacceptable!
20:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: but i had ideas :'(
20:00:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:00:14 -!- PiRSquared17 has changed nick to Quenching.
20:00:22 <elliott> @clear-
20:00:22 <lambdabot> Messages cleared.
20:01:50 <elliott> oerjan: do you want to hear them :'(
20:01:57 <elliott> although they are :'(
20:01:59 <elliott> in the logs :'(
20:02:35 <oerjan> you seem to have something in your eye.
20:03:03 <elliott> its tears
20:04:08 <elliott> :'(
20:04:17 <elliott> tjey might even haf been
20:04:19 <elliott> GOOD Ideas
20:05:01 -!- Quenching has changed nick to QueenOfFrancitiy.
20:05:44 -!- QueenOfFrancitiy has changed nick to PiRSquared17.
20:05:45 * elliott creys non-softly (hardly)
20:08:43 <oerjan> elliott hardly crying, check
20:09:30 <fizzie> oerjan: Behold, a beam is in thine own eye.
20:10:10 <fizzie> The Finnish version makes that somehow sound hii-larious.
20:10:55 <oerjan> no wonder mine eyes have been itching
20:11:05 <fizzie> I think they use the word "hirsi" there, it evokes this image of a three-metre ~10x10cm-profile hulking piece of wood.
20:11:17 <fizzie> Though so does a "beam".
20:11:28 <fizzie> I don't know, to me it just sounds so much more concrete in Finnish.
20:11:30 <oerjan> as does norwegian "bjelke"
20:12:22 <elliott> y'all weird fuckers
20:12:23 <fizzie> :▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(
20:12:36 <elliott> (this is what finnish people actually look like)
20:12:50 <oerjan> elliott: well it's a mote point anyhow
20:13:30 <elliott> ALAN DIPERT
20:13:33 <elliott> MAKES MY HEART HURT
20:13:35 <elliott> BECAUSE HE WON'T
20:13:39 <elliott> UPDATE THE DNSON'T
20:13:57 -!- PiRSquared17 has left.
20:13:59 -!- PiRSquared17 has joined.
20:14:10 <fizzie> DNS, or DNSN'T.
20:14:13 <oerjan> wait, he actually refused?
20:14:34 <elliott> no
20:14:40 <elliott> he just hasn't responded yet
20:14:51 -!- Chef___ has joined.
20:15:16 <monqy> what if hes dead
20:15:20 <monqy> who will update the dnson't
20:15:54 <elliott> god
20:15:56 <fizzie> "Tikulla silmään sitä joka vanhoja muistaa", a Finnish proverb. (It's something like "if someone's reminiscing old things, poke eir eye with a stick". I'm not sure if other languages have a version of this?)
20:16:16 <fizzie> (It's used in a "let bygones be bygones" like way.)
20:16:32 -!- Chef____ has joined.
20:16:35 <oerjan> no, only the finnish are that violent.
20:17:13 <elliott> Can I adopt that idiom?
20:17:24 <oerjan> which one?
20:17:42 <elliott> if someone's reminiscing old things, poke eir eye with a stick
20:18:41 <fizzie> Perhaps "reminiscing" is not the right word. It's used when you dislike the fact that someone bought up some old thing.
20:18:55 <fizzie> http://fi.wikiquote.org/wiki/Suomalaisia_sananlaskuja -- wow, that's one long list.
20:19:26 -!- Chef___ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:19:59 <oerjan> the Chef appears to be steadily growing.
20:20:25 <fizzie> Have you plotted the length over time yet? If it's exponential, there may be a reason to worry.
20:20:37 <elliott> `Awake the morning, evening snooze, it is a way to keep the house.
20:20:42 <oerjan> nope, you're the master plotter here
20:20:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Awake: not found
20:20:55 <elliott> Eve is a celebration of legs.
20:21:00 <elliott> Ella is a greedy piece of shit an end.
20:21:15 <oerjan> wat
20:21:16 <elliott> Early bird catches the worm, but only the second mouse not cheese.
20:21:24 <elliott> Each time a branch participants, as a Christmas tree hunter.
20:21:41 <elliott> A shy man should not be a beautiful wife.
20:22:10 <elliott> Not bad way even if it is a bit kivuttaa.
20:22:11 <elliott> Einari nari, farted, and laid.
20:22:15 <oerjan> i suppose this would be funnier if i knew the originals for more than one of them
20:22:29 <elliott> Fish do not get a man if the man fish.
20:22:53 <fizzie> elliott: Wow, that "Eve is a celebration of legs". There's "jaloin", the superlative of "jalo"; "most noble", basically. But it's also some plural inflected form of "jalka", a leg.
20:23:07 <fizzie> oerjan: It is, I assure you.
20:23:27 <elliott> fizzie: Is "greedy piece of shit" an accurate translation?
20:25:05 <elliott> Not oo child itkemätöntä katkeematonta and fabric.
20:25:05 <elliott> Doctrine does not crash into a ditch.
20:25:05 <elliott> Not a beard-growing evil, turpajouhet nonsense.
20:25:05 <elliott> Not crap weighing heal.
20:25:15 <elliott> That's a lot of lying, which is half of lying.
20:25:17 <fizzie> elliott: It's not even about any "greedy Ella". The word is "ahneella", i.e. adessive case of "ahne", "of [in this case] the greedy". I can't fathom how it has split that to "ahne ella".
20:25:40 <fizzie> elliott: Anyway, it's something like "The greedy ones have a shitty fate".
20:25:48 <elliott> At least it got the curse right. :p
20:25:57 * elliott isn't sure hew ants to know what the farted and laid one is.
20:26:00 <elliott> *he wants
20:27:11 <elliott> Not on tenterhooks sauna.
20:27:21 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know what "nari" means there, but other than that it's pretty accurate like that.
20:27:52 <fizzie> I mean, I don't know what it means in the original.
20:28:02 <elliott> Do not u bitch u get into an argument and not a piece of wood.
20:28:19 <elliott> ("Ei yks akka riitele eikä yks puu pala.")
20:28:20 <oerjan> it's nary a word
20:28:56 <fizzie> It literally says "Einari nari, pieri ja pani". I guess it's from the onomatopoeic "nari-nari", for which I don't know the exact English. It's probably related to "snare", though.
20:29:08 <monqy> Do not Lick before they are hatched.
20:29:48 <oerjan> Selg ikke skinnet før bjørnen er skutt.
20:30:20 <fizzie> The "bitch" one is "a single woman/bitch won't fight, and a single [block of] wood won't burn". The 'akka' word is not quite a neutral "woman", but not quite the English "bitch" either.
20:30:30 <Deewiant> 'hag'
20:30:33 <fizzie> Yes.
20:30:39 <elliott> You Finns are... lovely people.
20:30:41 <fizzie> Well, at least more yes.
20:31:04 <monqy> Attic'd bread, but the kids ate the stairs.
20:31:13 <elliott> Practice makes perfect.
20:31:13 <elliott> continued: ... and the receiver of sulfur is training.
20:31:28 <monqy> The last word dude man.
20:31:47 <elliott> The Lord's body, even if the clothes are bad.
20:32:02 <elliott> Silent hill.
20:32:14 <oerjan> the hills are quiet. too quiet.
20:32:21 <fizzie> elliott: That's "practice makes a master ... and the master does training too", approximately.
20:32:28 <monqy> Again, said the Teletubby.
20:32:36 <elliott> , At a great distance.
20:32:36 <elliott> continued ... evil even further.
20:32:40 <elliott> monqy: are these real
20:32:46 <monqy> Sinks in the carbon monoxide in the head.
20:32:50 <monqy> yes
20:32:50 <elliott> wow they are
20:32:53 <fizzie> It has again split [mestari] [-kin] inappropriately as [mesta] [rikin] or something, since 'rikki' is sulfur.
20:32:57 <elliott> fizzie: you... must explain monqy's
20:33:21 <fizzie> elliott: Which one of them?
20:33:29 <elliott> all
20:33:30 <elliott> all of them
20:33:34 <elliott> :'(
20:33:35 <elliott> i must know
20:33:49 <fizzie> elliott: The "again, said the Teletubby" is just "again, said the Teletubby".
20:33:56 <fizzie> They do say "again" a lot.
20:34:06 <monqy> is that a finnish proverb
20:34:14 <fizzie> It's a modern one.
20:34:22 <elliott> ancient finnish teletubbies
20:34:47 <oerjan> "Det er bare en overgang", sa reven, han ble flådd.
20:34:58 <fizzie> elliott: I'm having some trouble locating the originals to the rest.
20:35:26 <fizzie> Oh, I found one.
20:35:35 <elliott> fizzie: Just translate it in Chrome
20:35:38 <elliott> Ctrl+F the English
20:35:42 <elliott> Hover over to get the Finlandish
20:36:29 <fizzie> "Sinks in the carbon monoxide in the head" -> "uppoaa kuin häkä päähän": that's... well, "[something] sinks in, just like carbon monoxide to the head".
20:37:03 <elliott> I'm a bit puzzled that fizzie is unable to read sentences in his native language.
20:37:23 <monqy> There, speak of the devil, there's stomach where the wrestling is.
20:37:54 <fizzie> "The last word dude man" is "the last word from a manly guy" or some-such.
20:38:47 <fizzie> "Attic'd bread, but the kids ate the stairs" is just "there would be bread in the attic, but [we can't get there because] the kids ate the stairs". The part in [] is sort of implied.
20:39:43 <fizzie> And "Do not Lick before they are hatched" is "do not lick before it falls off"; it's a bit like "do not count your chickens before they're hatched", I suppose GT has just gotten the second half from there.
20:40:06 <fizzie> Except it doesn't really make sense.
20:40:49 <fizzie> Since (in case of e.g. ice cream) you'd be better off getting in a lick or two if it's going to fall off anyway.
20:40:49 <monqy> Rotates as a fart leather pants.
20:40:50 <monqy> Rotates as a fart in the Sahara.
20:41:18 <fizzie> Those are pretty accurate. Except it's not really "rotates", it's more like "runs around".
20:41:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: "it drops" rather than "it falls off": to drop :: tipahtaa : drop :: tippa.
20:41:42 <Deewiant> (Okay, :: tippua, but meh)
20:42:34 <elliott> fizzie: Do Finns know what a proverb is?
20:42:37 <elliott> It's not a sentence fragment.
20:43:08 <fizzie> 1. (3) proverb, adage, saw, byword -- (a condensed but memorable saying embodying some important fact of experience that is taken as true by many people)
20:43:26 <monqy> Squirrel is correct that the cone is covered with ice
20:43:53 <monqy> does this embody some important fact of experience for finns
20:44:03 <elliott> finnish squirrels are often correct
20:44:41 <fizzie> monqy: "It serves the squirrel right that the cone's covered with ice."
20:44:50 <Deewiant> (pinecone)
20:44:53 <fizzie> Right.
20:45:18 <monqy> Well, now is a dick on his forehead
20:45:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also I think it's "A : B :: C : D" and not "A :: B : C :: D".
20:45:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: Meh, it's just syntax.
20:46:20 <fizzie> monqy: That's close enough. Note that there's an explanation below.
20:46:35 <oerjan> Når skaren bærer en mann ved Sankthans, blir det en sen vår.
20:46:36 <monqy> the explanation doesn't make sense either
20:46:54 <fizzie> monqy: Well, you can't have everything.
20:47:00 <elliott> does finnish culture make sense to finns
20:47:05 <fizzie> (The explanation is "At one job or project consists of hard to solve or insurmountable problems, the person responsible for the eyebrows go crispy stage".)
20:47:16 <elliott> i honestly find your cavalier acceptance of this nonsense incomprehensible
20:47:35 <oerjan> elliott: well as the italians say, traditore traduttore
20:47:58 <elliott> ("Until we have sex robots, we'll just have to settle for pasta.")
20:48:07 <elliott> (Italian is a concise language.)
20:48:44 <oerjan> sorry, *traduttore, traditore
20:49:17 <fizzie> Is that then "We'll just have to settle for pasta, until we have sex robots"?
20:49:30 <elliott> ("Unlike my alien grandson, I have plenty feathers for the mathematicians to ruffle.")
20:49:39 <fizzie> Italian is weird.
20:49:46 <elliott> Says the speaker of Finnish.
20:50:43 <oerjan> fizzie: i can assure you that elliott's translations are entirely appropriate to the original meaning.
20:51:11 <fizzie> Quite a lot of these "proverbs" I hadn't heard before, and I get accused by friends of spouting all kinds of weirdo sayings all the time.
20:51:31 <monqy> Granny fucked in the snow, and mother-in-law.
20:51:36 <fizzie> On the other hand, I think my things aren't on the list.
20:51:40 <elliott> fizzie: Well, you know what they say. Never trust a dog with your telephone.
20:51:42 <oerjan> (i'm only slightly joking)
20:52:59 <fizzie> monqy: That's actually just "Granny in the snow, and mother-in-law in pee". Except the "in pee" bit may also mean "in trouble".
20:53:00 <oerjan> En klokke i hånden er bedre enn tiur på taket
20:53:08 <elliott> fizzie: what
20:53:10 <fizzie> There's no "fucked" anywhere in there.
20:53:43 <fizzie> Well, except I guess "I'm fucked" can also mean "I'm in trouble".
20:53:48 <fizzie> So it sort-of makes sense that way.
20:55:03 <elliott> As for ending, kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen ever.
20:55:07 <elliott> fizzie: ??????
20:55:28 <fizzie> '??????'?
20:55:37 <elliott> what does i tmean
20:56:02 <fizzie> I never know what you tmean at any t.
20:56:09 <elliott> i mean
20:56:12 <elliott> what does that proverb mean
20:57:36 <fizzie> The kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen one? I suppose it's just something indescribable. Maybe Deewiant can put it in words.
21:00:30 <elliott> i get the feeling that
21:00:32 <elliott> i cannot fool fizzie :'9
21:00:34 <elliott> :'(
21:00:48 <fizzie> I get the feeling that I just used a cop-out.
21:00:52 <Deewiant> ISTR you coming up with that compound with oklopol's help.
21:01:17 <fizzie> Yes, but I didn't want to say anything that boring.
21:01:23 <fizzie> I mean, it was referred to today and all.
21:02:14 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm glad you recognise it as a compound
21:02:17 <elliott> As opposed to, say, a jumble
21:02:35 <fizzie> Twentyfourhourtimeperiodcurrent.
21:02:41 <elliott> I should have named the server kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen.
21:02:51 <elliott> fizzie: Yes. "Today", in other words!
21:02:55 <elliott> Other, inferior words.
21:07:52 <Gregor> I've updated my hats list! WHOAAAAH
21:09:20 -!- quintopi1 has joined.
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21:09:31 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:09:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:09:46 <oerjan_> wtf
21:10:06 <fizzie> You caught the _-bug.
21:10:58 <elliott> we're so proud of you
21:11:06 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
21:11:12 <elliott> fizzie: did you hear, btw, oerjan_ says you have a moral imperative to op me as the new wiki admin
21:11:18 <elliott> oerjan will now deny this but he is not oerjan_
21:11:27 <elliott> i dispense only facts
21:11:35 <oerjan> oerjan_ is of no consequence whatsoever.
21:12:16 <elliott> um excuse me
21:12:21 <elliott> if you do /nick oerjan_
21:12:25 <elliott> you will find yourself able to use chanserv op actions
21:12:28 <elliott> therefore he is an authority
21:13:01 -!- oerjan has changed nick to eviloverlord.
21:13:16 <Gregor> *eviloerjanlord
21:13:22 <elliott> excellent
21:13:23 <elliott> eviloverlord: op me
21:13:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o eviloverlord.
21:13:30 <elliott> thanks, that's step 1 of 2
21:13:35 <elliott> step 2 is /op elliott
21:13:41 -!- eviloverlord has set channel mode: -o eviloverlord.
21:13:45 <elliott> no you typo'd
21:13:46 <Gregor> So close
21:13:47 <elliott> start again
21:13:48 -!- eviloverlord has changed nick to oerjan.
21:13:51 <elliott> it's difficult sometimes
21:13:52 <elliott> oh no
21:13:54 <elliott> you're really bad at typing
21:15:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:15:08 <elliott> see
21:15:11 <elliott> this is what happens
21:15:15 <elliott> fizzie: you don't want that, do you?
21:18:17 <fizzie> I... think I disbelief.
21:18:53 <elliott> fizzie: JUST LIKE OERJAN DID, NO?
21:19:39 <elliott> Q.Logic.D.
21:20:52 <elliott> I don't know, I SINGLE-HANDEDLY (well... double-handedly) solve the spam problem, upgrade MW, *and* grace you with badly-translated Finnish pronouns.
21:22:17 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:22:35 <Taneb> Hello!
21:22:44 * elliott takes Taneb hostage.
21:22:50 <Taneb> Oh dear god
21:22:55 <Taneb> What's going on?
21:23:09 <fizzie> An op-grab, I think.
21:23:18 <fizzie> Or an attempt, anyway.
21:23:31 <Taneb> Kill me, it will simplify the situation
21:23:39 <Taneb> Remember the lessons from Speed!
21:23:44 <Taneb> Eliminate the hostage!
21:24:01 <elliott> fizzie: Will you feel scared if I kill Taneb as I did oerjan?
21:24:06 <elliott> Also, it's, like, totally not even grabbing.
21:24:07 <fizzie> Only lesson from Speed I remember is that buses can jump incredibly well even without any ramps.
21:24:12 <elliott> The hierarchy goes like this:
21:24:18 <elliott> Incredibly benevolent active spam-fighting wiki owner
21:24:20 <elliott> |
21:24:25 <elliott> IRC op thingies
21:24:28 <elliott> |
21:24:37 <elliott> everyone else
21:24:39 <elliott> |
21:24:42 <elliott> kallisti
21:24:58 <Taneb> Where do Phantom__Hoover's targets fit on here?
21:25:02 <elliott> So really I've just ascended and the caching engine in the propagate-downwards stuff is clogged up a bit with confusion.
21:25:05 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
21:25:08 <elliott> Taneb: They're a few miles to the right.
21:25:14 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
21:25:14 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:25:21 <elliott> fizzie: Am I being convincing yet?
21:25:35 <monqy> am i everyone else
21:25:38 <Taneb> I'm an op on #esoteric-chess-variants
21:25:43 <Taneb> Does this count for anything?
21:25:59 <elliott> That actually counts for less than nothing.
21:26:21 <Taneb> But it keeps some irrelevant topics out of the channel
21:26:26 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:26:54 <Taneb> Which is surely a good thing
21:27:03 <elliott> @tell oerjan What if I modified the wiki so that it was impossible to add entries to the language list, deadfish implementations, hello world implementations, etc. lists that were not in correct alphabetical order?
21:27:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:27:06 <Taneb> It also means kallisti says slightly less htings
21:27:09 <elliott> @ask oerjan What *then*?
21:27:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:27:22 <elliott> @tell oerjan Surely any reasonable person who is you would find this convincing.
21:27:22 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:28:11 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott_.
21:32:53 <quintopia> are there any self-inverse functions, continuous almost everywhere, with the entire reals as domain, besides f(x)=+-x and f(0)=0,f(x!=0)=+-k/x?
21:33:46 <elliott_> only on sundays
21:34:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:35:29 <oerjan> Gregor: why didn't my losing connection show up in the logs?
21:35:30 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:35:35 <oerjan> @messages
21:35:35 <lambdabot> elliott said 8m 32s ago: What if I modified the wiki so that it was impossible to add entries to the language list, deadfish implementations, hello world implementations, etc. lists that were not in
21:35:35 <lambdabot> correct alphabetical order?
21:35:36 <lambdabot> elliott asked 8m 26s ago: What *then*?
21:35:36 <lambdabot> elliott said 8m 12s ago: Surely any reasonable person who is you would find this convincing.
21:35:43 <oerjan> elliott_: tempting
21:36:00 <elliott_> oerjan: You say that, but then I'll do it.
21:36:02 <elliott_> And what THEN?
21:36:29 <oerjan> although i should point out the order of the language list is not entirely charset based.
21:36:33 <Gregor> oerjan: Excellent question >_>
21:37:01 <elliott_> oerjan: hmm, how is it ordered?
21:37:37 <oerjan> elliott_: sometimes by 1337 = leet
21:38:05 <oerjan> and the genuinely non-alphabetic ones are first, of course
21:38:30 <elliott_> oerjan: Well 1337 as leet is stupid.
21:38:33 <quintopia> elliott_: will you tell me tomorrow what they are?
21:38:43 <elliott_> quintopia: No, the proof is classical.
21:39:18 <Sgeo> Whee, my school's Linux system has X forwarding
21:39:19 <quintopia> where can i find it?
21:39:22 <Sgeo> What fun things can I play with?
21:39:45 <elliott_> quintopia: The existence proof of the proof is also classical.
21:39:50 <elliott_> Sgeo: The 1980s.
21:39:56 <oerjan> Gregor: also, my nick change from eviloverlord back to oerjan was not shown, although i might of course have lost some connection by then...
21:40:08 <elliott_> You didn't.
21:40:09 <oerjan> although i hadn't noticed myself
21:40:16 <quintopia> elliott_: i prefer the romantic period anyway.
21:40:23 <Sgeo> They have Firefox installed on her
21:40:24 <Sgeo> here
21:40:46 <Sgeo> It's taking a while
21:40:54 * Sgeo Ctrl-Cs
21:41:23 <Gregor> oerjan: It's the fact that that nick change was lost that caused the quit to be lost.
21:41:28 <Gregor> It somehow broke in its nick tracking.
21:41:46 <elliott_> oerjan: What if I just implement that sortable-and-filterable-by-computational-class-and-implementation-status-and-so-on automatically-updated language list, and then categorise every uncategorised page on the wiki?
21:42:46 <oerjan> Gregor: aha
21:43:26 <elliott_> Come on, that's like Christmas.
21:43:35 <oerjan> elliott_: i suppose that would be nice, although i've sometimes been thinking the language list should allow short descriptions...
21:43:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:44:01 <elliott_> oerjan: It could quote the first sentence as the second line of each "row".
21:44:06 <elliott_> (Perhaps togglable.)
21:44:39 <oerjan> oh well
21:44:53 <elliott_> oerjan: How is that "oh well" that's like the bestest thing ever.
21:45:30 <elliott_> :'(
21:46:04 <oerjan> i have a limited capability for awe, sorry
21:46:49 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it's been deteriorating lately.
21:47:06 <elliott_> It would also make you lutefisk.
21:49:55 <oerjan> trying to force me to give opinions decreases the probability of succeeding by at least 90%.
21:50:11 <elliott_> Lutefisk-hater. :(
21:52:11 * elliott_ is going to sleep soon.
21:52:18 <elliott_> before esolangs.org even points properly :(
22:13:36 <elliott_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/John_Horton_Conway grrr this should use an interwiki
22:15:03 <elliott_> oerjan: god nit
22:15:04 <oerjan> elliott_: if you mean [[Wikipedia:*]] links, i dislike the fact they look like local links rather than external ones
22:15:13 <elliott_> it's "wikipedia" lowercase
22:15:24 <elliott_> and i don't care if you don't like it :P especially since they _do_ display differently
22:15:28 <elliott_> meanwhile
22:15:29 <elliott_> god nit
22:16:24 <oerjan> i was pretty sure they didn't last i checked.
22:16:48 <oerjan> maybe in the latest mw versions...
22:18:12 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:19:28 <oerjan> argh the new pages list cannot give more than the first 7 new pages :(
22:20:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:22:33 <oerjan> @tell i just looked at the [[wikipedia:complex number]] you added to Excela and it _does_ show identical to a local link. i hope that has changed in recent versions then.
22:22:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:22:36 <oerjan> argh
22:22:42 <oerjan> @tell elliott i just looked at the [[wikipedia:complex number]] you added to Excela and it _does_ show identical to a local link. i hope that has changed in recent versions then.
22:22:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:22:51 <oerjan> @nick i
22:22:51 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: dice dict
22:22:54 <ais523> oerjan: it's a slightly different shade of blue, IIRC
22:25:02 <oerjan> rather insignificantly so. also it doesn't change color when visited, which is blasphemy.
22:31:33 -!- shachaf_ has quit (Quit: !).
22:31:39 -!- shachaf has joined.
22:36:11 <fizzie> There's some sort of a "roses are red" poem waiting in the default blue/purple/red link colours.
22:38:26 <Gregor> Deadlinks are red, new content is blue, all my links are purple; I've read it all thru.
22:38:52 <kallisti> hi
22:38:55 <monqy> hi
22:39:03 <oerjan> hi
22:39:46 <Gregor> Hydroelectric power
22:42:52 <fizzie> quintopia: What about just something like f(x) = {x+1 if floor(x) is even; x-1 otherwise} and its obvious relatives?
22:43:42 <oerjan> ooh
22:44:23 <fizzie> oerjan: E was looking for involutions, I think. (I didn't really read much of the surroundings.)
22:50:31 <oerjan> hm basically you can divide R into infinitely many intervals and treat all interiors as separate copies of R
22:52:06 <oerjan> (for other obvious relatives)
22:55:46 <fizzie> A sort-of-like-that relative would be, I think, f(x) = { x, if x is integer; floor(x)+1-(x-floor(x)) otherwise }. (I assume the one that'd just have the "otherwise" case and try to "flip" the whole [k,k+1)-for-integer-k intervals might hit some problems.)
22:58:41 <oerjan> oh and something more obviously global: if g is any homeomorphism then g . f . g^{-1} is another function of this type
22:59:21 <ais523> anyone here like reading court transcripts where the judge is pointing out how absurd a lawsuit is? http://www.groklaw.net/pdf3/OraGoogle-719-5.pdf
22:59:58 <ais523> it's from Apple v. Motorola, where Apple are talking about how they allege that Motorola infringed a patent for detecting whether the user is trying to swipe vertically on a touchscreen or not
23:00:20 <ais523> and the judge is trying to point out that it doesn't really make sense to claim damages from that as the infringement isn't likely to make differences to sales either way
23:03:38 <oerjan> that method btw gives a large class of functions that are continuous everywhere, not just almost
23:05:04 <oerjan> hm well you have to start with something like f(x) = -x
23:10:10 <fizzie> I would be interested in an interesting example. (Which is almost a tautology, I suppose.)
23:11:13 <Phantom__Hoover> What're you doing?
23:12:44 <oerjan> g(x) = x^3, er no that just gives -x back...
23:14:41 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: R -> R involutions that are continuous almost everywhere, and also something else than f(x) = +-x and f(x) = { 0, if x = 0; +-k/x otherwise }, was the original question.
23:14:52 <oerjan> g(x) = (x+1)^3 gives (2 - x^(1/3))^3
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23:16:26 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
23:18:59 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some transcendental homeomorphism...
23:20:45 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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23:25:33 <oerjan> i cannot recall any particularly nice ones though
23:26:31 <fizzie> oerjan: Values of x < 0 of that are complex.
23:27:02 <fizzie> Claims WA.
23:27:04 <fizzie> Which is weird.
23:27:22 <oerjan> fizzie: well it's not taking the real branch, then...
23:27:38 -!- tzxn4 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:27:56 <fizzie> Seems so, but I don't see why, since it is doing a single cube root.
23:28:09 <fizzie> I'd sort of assume that if you had to pick one.
23:28:10 <oerjan> exp(-exp(x)) maps R to (0,1), where you can use something like sin x / sin 1, then move back with ln(-ln(x))
23:28:51 <fizzie> I guess it's just the lowest-angle root that it chooses.
23:29:06 <fizzie> Or the "first" in that sense.
23:29:37 <fizzie> Since it says (-1)^(1/3) is e^(i*pi/3).
23:30:25 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, also the mind-bending new thing about W|A was that you can now also pay $5/month to use it, if you want.
23:30:44 <fizzie> "Wolfram|Alpha Pro gives you a whole new way to interact with Wolfram|Alpha—and immediate access to new, more personal, computational knowledge. Introductory price, only $4.99/month."
23:30:48 <fizzie> Also there's a free trial.
23:31:09 <fizzie> So the "next big step" equals money.
23:32:16 <Phantom__Hoover> <oerjan> i'm sure there's some transcendental homeomorphism...
23:32:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Transcendental homeomorphisms, maaan.
23:32:33 <fizzie> (Well, okay, it also lets you upload files now. Then it does stuff to them.)
23:32:37 <Phantom__Hoover> What are transcendental homeomorphisms anyway.
23:32:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait homeomorphisms on R are just continuous bijections aren't they.
23:34:46 <oerjan> yes.
23:35:21 <oerjan> (the continuity of the inverse is automatic in this case, iirc)
23:36:25 <Phantom__Hoover> I can see a trivial proof by vague diagram, which I understand is the standard in topology.
23:37:23 <oerjan> for R^n it isn't quite so trivial, but still true by the invariance of domain theorem.
23:37:30 <fizzie> Bah, I can't figure out how to get the real branch. There's some obsoleted Miscellaneous`RealOnly` package, and the "usual solution" (according to some forum guy) of DeleteCases[Solve[x^3 == n, x], { Rule[_, _Complex] }, 2] (how obvious).
23:38:14 <oerjan> fancy.
23:38:46 <fizzie> That doesn't even return a number but some symbolic { x -> <result> } list. And anyway W|A is not quite Mathematica.
23:39:49 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: for R it might help to realize these functions have to be monotonic
23:40:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes, that's the gist of the proof by vague diagram.
23:40:30 <Phantom__Hoover> The vague diagram is two axes with a wavy diagonal line.
23:41:40 <fizzie> Well, "solve x^3 = -1, reals" works, but if I add "reals" it just finds "x = 8" because that solves (2 - x^(1/3))^3 = 0. If I explicitly add also "plot", the cube root reverts to the usual one.
23:41:53 <fizzie> If this is computational knowledge, I don't think I want any part of it.
23:42:29 <oerjan> it's "we know better than you what you mean" knowledge
23:42:46 <oerjan> and it surrounds us all.
23:42:50 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait, what're you trying to plot?
23:43:04 <oerjan> (2 - x^(1/3))^3
23:43:25 <fizzie> That, but with x^(1/3) returning the real (negative) result for x < 0.
23:43:58 <oerjan> fizzie: something like sgn(x)*(abs(x))^(1/3), perhaps?
23:44:23 <fizzie> oerjan: Clever, it works.
23:44:45 <oerjan> yay
23:45:26 <fizzie> You get one "successfully cheated at W|A" point.
23:45:39 <oerjan> ^celebrate
23:45:39 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
23:45:39 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
23:45:40 <myndzi> /`\ >\ /´\ | /'\ /`\ /| | >\ |\ |\
23:45:40 <myndzi> /'\ (_|¯`\
23:45:40 <myndzi> (_| |_) |_)
23:46:23 <fizzie> Also I tried to click on the small "enable interactivity" icon, but that's a "Pro" feature.
23:47:30 <fizzie> But if you put in your $5 you get to choose a color scheme.
23:48:01 <fizzie> Maybe they'll buy a site license at the university.
23:48:22 <fizzie> "Use this soft keyboard to input mathematical and other symbols to make your formulas look just the way they do in books."
23:48:31 <fizzie> Imagine, just the way they do in books.
23:49:57 <fizzie> As an example someone's written "∫ sin(2 π θ) / (cos(π θ) + 2)". (I used the rather cheaper character map dealie.)
23:50:34 <oerjan> is the soft keyboard lemon or almond taste?
23:52:06 <fizzie> What's this "tones.wolfram.com".
23:52:12 <fizzie> Apparently it's "a new kind of music".
23:52:37 <oerjan> @quote intermittantly
23:52:38 <lambdabot> sclv says: You have a problem and think "I'll use a hash function." Now you have intermittantly colliding problems.
23:52:40 <fizzie> I suppose it's when you play back 1D CA logs.
23:52:56 <calamari> \o/
23:52:56 <myndzi> ¦
23:52:57 <myndzi> ´¸¨
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