00:01:47 -!- PiRSquared has joined. 00:04:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:32:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:39:52 -!- calamari has joined. 01:06:18 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 01:08:43 -!- fizzie has joined. 01:11:59 -!- calamari has joined. 01:12:54 -!- cheater_ has joined. 01:16:11 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:21:41 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to PiRSquared17|afk. 01:25:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:26:37 -!- jbander1 has joined. 01:28:57 -!- jbander1 has left. 01:34:29 -!- Tiktalik has joined. 01:46:48 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:15 -!- Frooxius has joined. 02:04:01 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:04:27 -!- derdon has joined. 02:09:05 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:15:41 -!- PiRSquared17|afk has changed nick to PiRSquared17|bus. 02:15:47 -!- PiRSquared17|bus has changed nick to PiRSquared17busy. 03:03:47 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 03:06:28 so i started writing an interpreter for a language but as i did so 03:06:44 i discovered the designer apparently had not been thinking at all 03:07:00 it was supposed to be esoteric but it was just bad 03:07:55 that's most esolangs 03:09:10 the better ones seem to be legitimately interesting though 03:40:19 cheater_: http://leib.be/sascha/the-nil-programming-language/ 03:40:21 I approve 03:46:39 -!- augur has joined. 03:47:37 -!- NihilistDandy has quit. 03:51:21 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 03:55:44 Please kill me now. 03:55:49 hi 03:55:57 I am trying to tutor some idiot who was asking for homework help on Freenode. 03:56:10 oops 03:56:17 monqy has a point. 03:56:24 * shachaf wonders whether secretly monqy = elliott. 03:56:33 Sgeo: Don't say that in #irp, you may not like the result. 04:01:54 -!- PiRSquared17busy has changed nick to PiRSquared. 04:03:11 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:07:18 Me: "Do you see any way to do an action for every edge that the vertex has?" 04:07:26 Me: "Those sort of things often have names ending with do: or Do:" 04:07:34 He: " to:?" 04:34:19 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 04:35:16 any finns awake? 04:35:49 * shachaf 04:37:57 shachaf'za finn?! 04:38:08 It's true. 04:38:17 do you speak finnish? 04:38:22 I don't speak the Finnish, though. :-( 04:39:02 useless 04:39:15 Finn who doesn't speak Finnish? 04:39:51 Nor Swedish. 04:39:56 enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 04:39:56 I ought to learn. 04:40:04 HLEP 04:42:21 solidity 04:42:21 lol 04:42:32 shachaf's no fluid, thats for sure! 04:42:47 I feel like I was just insulted. 04:42:55 I'm not sure I can figure out how, though. 04:50:42 I ... wut. 04:51:09 shachaf is a Finn who knows neither Finnish nor Swedish ... and isn't a fluid, which may or may not be a bad thing. 04:51:55 My Finnish passport is being shipped today/tomorrow. 04:52:31 What, does Finnish citizenship come free with purchase of Finn-O's cereal? 04:52:40 Yes. 04:54:01 I have nothing further to add *shrugs* 04:54:46 Gregor: Get yours today! 04:55:00 Gregor: I was also drafted. 04:55:10 -!- elliott has joined. 04:55:30 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=TwoDucks&diff=prev&oldid=30309 opinions on this edit? TwoDucks' computational class /isn't/ known 04:55:35 but it's obviously TC 04:55:42 the problem is that we use TC to mean Turing-equivalent 04:55:42 -!- PiRSquared has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20111221135037]). 04:55:50 and so many TC languages shouldn't have the category 04:55:53 Hey, it's elliott. 04:56:03 THE ALAN DIPERT was in here, you know. Did you talk? 04:56:12 Talk howso? 04:56:20 Communicate. 04:57:50 When? 04:58:03 Since you started your search. 05:00:13 My search? 05:01:54 elliott: For a problem to be X-complete, it must be both X-hard and in X. If "Turing" is a computational class (all those things that can be computed on a Turing machine), then TwoDucks is certainly /not/ Turing-complete. It is only Turing-hard. 05:02:12 That being said, "Turing" isn't a computational class, and our use of the term "TC" is something of an esocommunity invention :) 05:03:38 Gregor: I very much doubt our use of TC was invented by us, considering I hear it everywhere. 05:03:51 e.g. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringComplete 05:04:01 And people saying "lol every language is same because all TC" 05:04:30 Gregor: But yeah, I'm thinking about renaming [[Category:Turing complete]] to [[Category:Turing equivalent]]... 05:04:45 ISTR one of our other computational class categories is technically inaccurate too. 05:05:13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Computational_class Hm, perhaps not 05:07:55 Oh, this was discussed in the logs. 05:07:57 OK, I'll revert the edit. 05:47:18 turing-computable is totally a computational class. 05:47:38 and turing-hard is totally well-defined 05:52:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 05:57:15 -!- kallisti has joined. 05:57:15 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 05:57:16 -!- kallisti has joined. 06:00:05 quintopia: Who said anything about Turing-computable? 06:00:47 gregor said "if 'Turing' is a computational class" 06:01:18 but the terms "Turing-hard" and "Turing-complete" are derived from the class Turing-computable 06:03:03 Someone come up with a better subtitle for Esolang. 06:03:17 I want to expurgate the existing one. 06:03:35 what is the current? 06:04:23 Terrible. 06:04:45 you wish you lived near this guy http://images.4chan.org/v/src/1329881702774.jpg 06:12:52 is the subtitle even visible anywhere 06:13:05 title bar maybe 06:14:29 if title bar means what I think it means, it's not there 06:14:35 yeah i agree 06:14:45 no idea whatt0 the subtitle is 06:15:14 terrible 06:16:14
06:16:24 ah 06:16:29 worst subtitle 06:16:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle is the only place i can find it 06:17:41 that 06:17:45 is not so bad 06:18:08 not very descriptive 06:18:10 but 06:18:18 kind of quirky 06:18:28 quirky in a bad way I dislike lots 06:18:30 Deewiant: It's visible in e.g. Whatever Blue 06:18:37 Cologne Blue 06:18:54 I'm guessing that's a different theme 06:18:54 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=cologneblue 06:18:54 is that a theme? 06:18:58 no one uses themes 06:19:13 yikes, cologne blue 06:19:41 that is super ugly 06:20:00 Irrelevant 06:20:13 site subtitle: hi 06:20:15 that sounds like a good subtitle 06:20:22 i mean elliott's 06:20:57 site subtitle: hello 06:21:03 ESOLANG "Irrelevant" 06:22:33 tempting 06:22:56 it's better than weirder than you 06:29:20 does anyone know a unicode character that looks like 06:29:21 uhh 06:29:23 sort of like < 06:29:27 except it's one line splitting into two as it goes right 06:29:57 ⋚ 06:30:02 * shachaf likes that one. 06:30:07 it can be more than one line it splits into, too 06:30:14 basically something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg 06:30:16 but unicode :p 06:30:42 You want a code point for the USB logo? 06:31:04 hmm, ≺ could work 06:31:12 That one looks a lot like < to me. 06:31:24 It's similar. 06:31:28 ⪪ 06:31:29 It's not ideal. :( 06:31:46 shachaf: I can't even see that. 06:31:57 But it looks good on fileformat.info. 06:32:10 ᚜ 06:32:22 ⊰ 06:32:44 * shachaf isn't really sure what elliott is after. 06:34:33 Something that looks like that svg. :( 06:35:20 I don't get what you want. 06:35:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg 06:35:45 Complete with the top line being an arrow? 06:36:03 And three things going out from the left? 06:36:10 ⎃ 06:36:14 No, just something that vaguely evokes the same thing as that. 06:36:17 What a great symbol. 06:36:21 That thing evokes frustration in me. 06:48:42 ahh i don't seem to have that symbol 06:49:08 me to 06:49:08 o 06:49:11 too 06:49:11 me too 06:49:16 i usually try ms pmincho to look at such 06:56:20 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR YOU PEOPLE 07:02:08 hmm i see signifigant contributions by graue and smjg.. they should be proud of the esolangs.org 07:12:01 kallisti, elliott dateup 07:12:33 sgeo welcomes elliott back to #esoteric 07:32:45 elliott hath abandoned His creation and returned to that of another. 07:35:00 elliott: did you know that you can write Haskell programs that actually DO things? 07:35:34 "welcome back to #esoteric" - #esoteric 07:36:17 Haskell programs don't do things. Things do things. 07:39:37 kallisti: I can't write Haskell. 07:45:15 * Sgeo has been reading about Common Lisp 07:45:17 >.> 07:56:00 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:11:57 -!- itidus22 has joined. 08:14:45 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:17:53 elliott: What did you do? 08:19:05 Your last conttributions were 2008. 08:19:08 -t 08:20:48 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:22:03 mRoman: Oh, I'm [[User:ehird]]. 08:22:14 I have a handful accounts for confusing historical reasons. 08:22:19 (Namely I kept forgetting they existed.) 08:22:31 Oh. I see. 08:23:03 Is there a category for object-oriented esolangs? 08:23:27 Yes, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Object-oriented_paradigm 08:23:40 Thx. 08:23:43 (The main categories are listed hierarchically at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization.) 08:25:53 I like the look of the 99 bottles of beer program in Stlang, by the way. 08:26:09 Thanks. 08:27:31 Stack based hardly sounds esoteric to me >.> 08:28:06 Sgeo: How's stack-based AND oop? 08:29:16 Is Factor considered esoteric? 08:29:19 Sgeo: Similarly, since C is a non-esoteric imperative language, brainfuck is not esoteric. 08:29:23 >.> 08:29:48 Ok 08:29:51 I'd consider APL as an esoteric language, but it's not classified as such. 08:31:43 APL is too practically-oriented to count as esoteric, I think. It would be nice if we had words to distinguish the "oddity" aspect from the "non-serious" aspect. 08:32:35 http://hpaste.org/64158 08:32:52 I actually can construct the diamond problem in Stlang 08:32:54 somehow at least. 08:34:18 ok no. 08:34:49 *try* 08:45:03 -!- myndzi\ has quit. 08:45:11 -!- myndzi has joined. 08:46:49 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 08:48:04 http://sprunge.us/LfHW ;; running queries directly on the database: bestest thing ever 08:49:47 elliott: I got this really great behavior where CapsLock both sends Esc *and* toggles lock. 08:50:06 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:50:30 And xfce4-settings-helper and gnome-settings-daemon were running at the same time, as well as a script running xmodmap every second. 08:51:05 Awesome. 08:51:13 http://codepad.org/lbOQGID7 <- without overriding it's no problem (of course) 08:51:15 Can I make things any worse? 08:51:21 three things applying settings simultaneously, a recipy for bestness 08:51:29 http://codepad.org/Fbgbt35l <- if everybody overrides everybody the last one wins. 08:52:28 and the classic diamond problem: The last one wins too. 08:53:49 If D inherits from A, I'd call it the cyclic diamond problem :D 08:53:56 eh 08:53:58 A from D 08:59:19 http://codepad.org/hG4cCjJT <- like that 08:59:33 oh 08:59:41 inherit B C should be inherit B A 09:00:00 but that doesn't change anything anyway. 09:05:51 I can safely say that multiple inheritance is esoteric. 09:46:07 new language! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hollow 09:51:39 ;) 09:51:49 circular inheritance is way cooler. 10:08:24 @tell fizzie Also: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid 10:08:24 Consider it noted. 10:19:58 Oh no there's a flux inversion in the parsoid cascade unit. 11:10:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:11:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | Best for direct log access , See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 11:14:42 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:18:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:18:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 11:18:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:20:29 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:22:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:24:17 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:25:47 oerjan: enjoy recent changes again :P 11:27:10 okay 11:29:58 (1) regarding the subtitle, how did you _not_ consider the matrix there. 11:30:49 (2) maybe Category:Turing hard should be made a supercategory of Turing complete 11:31:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:31:50 121 reddit comments about oleg and call/cc 11:31:55 I predict 3 of them will be interesting or worthwhile. 11:32:19 Is it because of the sum of distinct digits of 121 is 3? 11:32:23 oerjan: (1) THAT'S NOT PROFESSIONAL 11:32:34 (2) How many pages would actually have that cat? 11:32:36 hi ais523 11:33:06 TwoDucks, Brainhype, Banana Scheme come to mind 11:33:37 oerjan: ok, better question: how many articles in [[Category:Uncomputable]] /won't/ have it 11:33:42 hi elliott 11:33:57 which category is under discussion? 11:34:11 ais523: (2) maybe Category:Turing hard should be made a supercategory of Turing complete 11:34:16 re the TwoDucks cat change 11:34:22 also, whoa, 46 changes in my RSS feed and they aren't spam? 11:34:41 uncomputable languages that aren't TH seem vaguely pointless 11:34:47 although, admittedly, so does most of the stuff on the wiki 11:35:24 ais523: even more surprising: many of them are Graue's 11:35:35 well Gravity hasn't been proved TH, has it? 11:35:36 admittedly, most of them are still mine :) 11:35:38 -!- derdon has joined. 11:35:41 ais523: also, *Atom :P 11:36:06 ais523: hmm, only 46? there have been over 50 changes today 11:36:16 closer to 100 11:36:19 wow, = looks bizarre in my feed reader's font 11:36:36 and it's using Atom, I just think of it as RSS because it does basically the same thing, and the user-visible differences aren't visible enough 11:36:39 it's like relieving Graue of the stress of administration made him start to contribute again. 11:37:54 oerjan: well he did say he's become more interested in esolangs now. but for there to be any stress related to the wiki's administration he'd have had to do something other than ignore it ;) 11:38:13 PROCRASTINATION CAN BE HIGHLY STRESSFUL 11:38:25 just ask an expert, i.e. me. 11:38:33 oerjan: procrastination is not the same thing as being too busy to do something 11:39:10 oerjan: I see you upgraded to IE 9. 11:40:17 ...no i didn't. 11:40:20 oh. 11:40:22 must be someone else. 11:40:26 hmm, I'm not convinced Gravity is TH 11:40:33 XP doesn't support 9. 11:41:13 elliott: I'm also not convinced it isn't 11:41:19 could be kind-of hard to work out 11:41:45 oerjan: oh, I see your IP now ;D 11:42:00 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 11:42:47 A logsnoop-liott. 11:42:55 hm it looks like Gravity is the only dubiously TH in Uncomputable 11:43:05 fizzie: It's addictive! 11:43:12 Someone just came in from *facebook*. 11:44:09 Fortunately nobody could concievably connect pc112.ics.hut.fi with me. (There might be a proxy on the way, though.) 11:45:29 sheesh, nobody told me about [[Special:LinkSearch]] 11:45:32 I used SQL instead 11:46:28 ooh, we have special:linksearch now? 11:46:34 I tried to use it on the old server, but it wasn't there 11:47:17 gah why the heck is Safalra disallowing the Web Archive? 11:48:04 http://safalra.com/robots.txt looks like it's explicitly 11:48:14 yes i saw it 11:48:23 http://code.stephenmorley.org/robots.txt same on his new site 11:49:45 oerjan: some people like to be able to remove content from their site permanently 11:50:08 sheesh, nobody told me about [[Special:LinkSearch]] <-- yay! (assuming it's what i think it is) 11:50:47 oerjan: It's this golf course search tool. 11:50:50 it lets you search for external links 11:51:09 I was right about that reddit thread, by the way, especially as Quadrescence has a ton of comments in it. 11:51:41 ais523: oerjan: hey, do we want on the wiki? 11:51:46 elliott: the problem is it's the only site that would have the Gravity spec 11:52:04 I would feel better about having to maintain PHP/MySQL software if it ran some OCaml too. 11:52:09 oerjan: email him? 11:52:11 but he's removed the old file and not moved it to the new site (yet) 11:52:19 oerjan: graue removed two links today pointing to his site too, since they were dead 11:52:24 is written in OCaml? 11:52:49 ais523: it uses texvc, which is written in OCaml 11:53:17 hmm, that means WikiMedia might be the largest deployer of OCaml software in the world :) 11:53:25 *Wikimedia (how confusing...) 11:53:30 I was about to correct that :) 11:53:58 aaargh 11:54:06 [[Ook!]] has spontaneously grown an esco infection 11:54:51 oerjan: some people like to be able to remove content from their site permanently <-- when i become world dictator i'll make that punishable by death. retroactively. 11:55:02 oerjan: http://code.stephenmorley.org/about-this-site/contact/ 11:56:30 oerjan: how can you kill someone retroactively? 11:57:11 ais523: i mean the time of the crime, not the punishment. unless i perfect my time machine first. 11:58:14 on the other hand outlawing time machines seems like a good policy for a world dictator. 12:00:15 oerjan: ENJOYING YOUR RECENT CHANGES? 12:02:16 no, i am being stressed by nagging people. 12:02:40 Another future punishable-by-death offence? 12:02:58 elliott: wait, is there supposed to be some general change? 12:03:28 oerjan: huh? 12:04:15 elliott: while there is a lot of content, i am not seeing any change particular to the recent changes _itself_ 12:04:52 which makes me wonder why you are going on about it. 12:05:16 fizzie: no, nothing as pleasant as death. 12:06:28 oerjan: good, because it hasn't changed 12:06:35 oerjan: i'm just taunting you because of how many changes there are :P 12:06:35 EXCELLENT 12:09:08 I note that my question REMAINS UNANSWERED. 12:09:47 fizzie: That Grasp thing is very fancy. 12:10:51 is good, i think. 12:11:42 (I wondered about adding it because http://esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial is very ugly.) 12:13:49 ais523: wow, ClueBot NG on Wikipedia is apparently based entirely on a neural network 12:13:52 I'm... surprised it works 12:14:17 "neural networks" in AI probably aren't much like the way you envisage them 12:14:33 it's basically just a way of tweaking weightings of various factors 12:14:42 it's not like it's parsing the individual words, or anything like that 12:15:08 oh, I know that 12:15:35 the description on the page just makes it sound like "we throw a neural network at the problem and it's solved" :P 12:15:58 (the main bot page is more descriptive) 12:16:05 that's what the neural network _wants_ you to think. 12:16:10 "C / C++ — The core is written in C/C++ from scratch." 12:16:14 oh dear 12:20:25 Need to get 107 MB of archives. 12:20:26 After this operation, 212 MB of additional disk space will be used. 12:20:26 sheesh 12:20:29 (for LaTeX) 12:22:58 oerjan: hm maybe i should integrate mathjax instead 12:23:39 that would avoid the server overhead, and probably render nicer. 12:23:43 but would require JS. 12:26:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:27:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:28:12 2 12:28:15 oops 12:30:29 a fine number, if the oddest of the primes 12:30:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:31:10 elliott: I needs to clean it up some day; it was suggested to get rid of the somewhat silly "multi-field nodes" thing, and just go with an edge-labeled graph of simple nodes; I mostly agree, it'd be cleaner but essentially equivalent. Though I have some slight residual affection towards those things I drew. 12:35:52 -!- cheater_ has quit (Read error: No route to host). 12:36:47 fizzie: Aw, but they're so pretty. 12:37:32 -!- cheater_ has joined. 12:37:55 I also have a half-finished Grasp editor written in C# (using Gtk#, I think) that shows the structured nodes like that, sorta-autohiding empty bits and whatnot. Would be a shame to lose all that. 12:38:56 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:39:21 -!- derdon has joined. 12:44:01 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:44:11 fizzie: C# is an... interesting chocie. 12:44:12 *choice 12:45:12 Yes, I think I was having some sort of a thing. 12:46:35 * oerjan notes that inside wikitable looks a bit weird 12:47:13 because both change the background color 12:48:18 and not to the same one 12:49:17 oerjan: yes, i noticed that 12:49:19 feel free to fix it P: 12:49:20 *:P 12:49:38 i don't know how 12:58:12 well a hacky way would be changing the s to i think 13:00:07 table.wikitable * { background: blaa } 13:00:23 I'm not sure how the override rules go 13:00:52 You can always do p > code or something to set it for the default case 13:01:46 Deewiant: That's a bit of a sledgehammery approach 13:01:53 For instance that probably breaks the external link icon. 13:02:12 Well, s/\*/code/ if you just want that 13:02:24 But like said, I'm not sure if it overrides plain code {} or not 13:05:22 the override should probably be on table.wikitable td > code 13:05:54 on the basis that if you're putting more complex stuff in the table cells, you probably want the background contract 13:05:56 *constrast 13:05:58 **contrast 13:06:02 oh hm the color is only different for the darkest wikitable parts 13:06:12 What if you have th cells? :-P 13:06:24 And note that IIRC > isn't supported by IE 6, if anybody cares 13:08:14 oerjan: you mean the s, presumably 13:08:26 the ths on [[malbolge]] are presumably the topic here 13:08:35 Deewiant: Does Vector even support IE 6? 13:09:01 elliott: well that's where i noticed it first, anyway 13:09:05 elliott: Beats me 13:12:26 "Probabilities are no longer finite" is one of the nicest error messages. 13:12:33 Those are some pretty dubious probabilities there. 13:13:26 fizzie: You need a special drive for those. 13:14:33 I think the "non-finite probabilities" it's speaking about are in fact NaNs, which is perhaps even worse. They're not even numbers anymore. 13:14:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 13:15:07 ais523: if subpages are turned on for a namespace, would the name "///" still work in that namespace? 13:15:33 -!- cheater_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 13:15:42 elliott: it would probably be interpreted as a subpage if there were a page called /, and possibly also if there were a page called // 13:15:54 subpages don't change which names are legal, just whether you get breadcrumb links pointing back 13:15:58 right, but assuming there aren't :) 13:16:23 hmm... http://sprunge.us/OYEP 13:16:46 two of those should clearly be deleted or moved (the Sandbox ones) 13:17:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/W/ this is ridiculous; any objections to deletion? 13:17:26 it was clearly just created to stop spambots creating it 13:17:31 so you may as well desalt it 13:17:35 ais523: no, it wasn't 13:17:42 (cur | prev) 22:55, 20 March 2011‎ Iconmaster (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (78 bytes) (It's been popular recently, it deserves a mention.) 13:17:43 err, wow 13:17:49 it's just a reference to the /w/s spambots like to put in page titles 13:17:50 it's offtopic, at least 13:17:55 see e.g. Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php 13:18:03 and that's probably a good reason to delete it 13:18:06 meh, you delete it, i've deleted like ten things today already :P 13:18:22 gotta distribute the blame!!! 13:19:05 Lovely how the alignment of the right-side |s breaks down with multibyte characters. 13:19:56 Welcome to MySQL. 13:20:28 hmm 13:20:40 I think turning on subpages for the main namespace would be a mistake 13:20:46 because it just encourages people to put programs on the wiki 13:21:16 (that said, you can hardly blame people when getting a file on the file archive involves emailing somebody and waiting N days...) 13:27:53 it's usual to use Talk-space subpages, rather than mainspace subpages, for that sort of thing 13:30:54 well, people don't 13:31:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:35:18 it's interesting that the wiki move seems to have shot activity up far past what it was even before the spam problem got bad 13:35:44 even ignoring my actions, there's ~25 recent changes entries already today 13:37:35 this happened on nethackwiki too 13:37:57 although in that case, it was an extreme drop in the obnoxiousness levels of the server (especially if you had Flash turned on) 13:38:23 I hope the activity sustains :) 13:39:45 Hey, have the Google rankings of nethackwiki.com finally risen above nethack.wikia.com? It used to be the case that (for me) even for a 'nethackwiki something' search it returned wikia results primarily, and I had to use '"nethackwiki" something' with the quotes to make it return the proper ones. 13:40:29 fizzie: it's different for different people 13:40:36 because Google's rankings aren't consistent between people 13:40:43 nethackwiki's been higher on Google for me for ages 13:40:51 but that might not be representative of elsewhere 13:40:51 they should really figure out a way to trash the wikia :p 13:41:05 elliott: we have, we're abandoning it and leaving it to gather spam and misinformation over time 13:41:12 and there are a few tricks on the wikia version too 13:41:40 ais523: well, every query I try always puts the wikia first 13:41:44 Tjr used his admin rights there to get the new user welcome message to advertise nethackwiki, and wikia didn't spot it 13:41:47 so it's evidently not effective enough trashing in Google's eyes 13:42:09 (this is part of the reason we don't want to rile Wikia up, in case they do) 13:42:25 spam doesn't seem likely, since Wikia will do spam-blocking network-wide 13:42:57 misinformation is hard to spot when you're looking things up for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure it'll be effective in driving people away; esp. since it's Google's rankings that matter mostly 13:43:46 it came up on RGRN recently 13:43:46 (the spellbook read timings are wrong on Wikia) 13:44:13 are you sure Wikia is actually monitoring it actively? 13:44:14 does it still say (old site) in Google results pointing at Wikia NetHack? 13:44:16 yes 13:44:28 but it's impossible to find the new site from a random page, so it's not very helpful 13:44:52 Ooh, Google's Hertz-logo is animooooted. 13:44:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:45:01 * elliott would just throw caution to the wind and add a sitenotice that links to the new URL for any given page 13:45:13 that was there once, Wikia removed it 13:45:16 too obvious, presumably 13:45:29 how soon was that after they moved? 13:45:39 if Wikia are still actively monitoring it, they have way too much time on their hands 13:45:50 I feel compelled to point out that Wikia are really evil at this point 13:46:31 You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. 13:46:45 http://nethack.wikia.com/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&action=history 13:46:51 ais523: well, there's no non-deleted revisions of any such sitenotice 13:46:57 but perhaps they added it with some other mechanism 13:47:46 elliott: IIRC the deal was that Tjr could do anything he wanted to advertise for two weeks, then they'd put it back to normal 13:47:53 but they screwed up the putting it back to normal 13:48:50 every time I think more about Wikia's policy of roping in people to "start your own wiki" (when it's actually "donate your wiki to us") and then aggressively keeping ownership of it against the owner's will, it just gets more and more blatantly evil 13:55:08 @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> a -> Maybe a 13:55:08 Data.List find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a 13:55:08 Data.Foldable find :: Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Maybe a 13:55:08 Control.Monad mfilter :: MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a 13:55:17 :t \p x -> guard (p x) >> return x 13:55:18 forall (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadPlus m) => (b -> Bool) -> b -> m b 13:56:17 elliott: It's a shame you don't actually own esolangs.org; you could do the Most Evil Thing and secretly sell it to Wikia, like what I think sorta-happened with memory-alpha.org. 13:59:19 fizzie: Well, I *want* to own it, so that I can set up IPv6 + email + such. 13:59:26 And then sell it to Wikia. 13:59:35 Also, I'm not familiar with that incident; details? 14:00:08 I'm not familiar-familiar with it either; http://en.memory-alpha.org/index.php?title=Forum%3AWikia_now_owns_memory-alpha.org&diff=935325&oldid=935131 might be relevant. 14:00:33 Of course you might not quite get "move to Bahamas" money with it; the battlestarwiki.org guy was offered $2500, according to http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/2008/01/27/battlestar-wiki-buy-out-not-gonna-happen/ -- and it's borderline possible there are more Battlestar Galactica fans than esolang fans. 14:00:57 fizzie: gah, you forgot the useskin=monobook 14:01:00 (That latter was a link from the former.) 14:01:02 Awful. 14:01:13 I hope Wikia goes out of business. 14:01:34 (...right after distributing standard XML dumps of all of their wikis...) 14:01:43 ais523: Whoever added that link to Wikipedia's Wikia article forgot it. 14:01:57 ais523: it's about wikia being terrible; the skin adds to the experience 14:02:15 but discussions about Wikia being terrible are often on Wikia, rather than somewhere sane 14:02:42 btw, it seems that at least one regular RGRN poster has his browser settings locked down so far he doesn't even notice anything wrong with Wikia 14:02:44 IIRC (this information from Sgeo), Wikia actually buy up domains for your wiki that don't exist yet to lock you in. 14:02:59 that doesn't surprise me at all 14:03:02 Or at least ISTR Sgeo saying that they bought creatureswiki.{net,org} or something without contacting them about it first. 14:03:09 although nethackwiki found a reasonably good one 14:03:29 (just two characters away from nethack.wikia) 14:03:29 I believe that was shortly after they started complaining about the new skin and started talking about moving off Wikia. 14:04:15 ais523: I see all three of nethackwiki.{com,net,org} go to the same place. Very professional. 14:04:27 they're a company, an ISP, *and* a non-profit! 14:04:33 ais523: hey, do we (Esolang) have a privacy policy? 14:04:43 fizzie: Tjr's been going crazy wrt Wikia and SEO 14:04:57 he put a lot of effort into trying to get above Wikia in search results 14:05:00 if not, what's the most amusing privacy policy you can think of? 14:05:15 at one point, he even considered buying sponsored-links advertising for nethack search questions 14:06:10 and, we should have a sane one 14:06:29 or, hmm, "note that your IP address is logged by user:ehird, so if you don't trust him with knowing what it is, don't even view the site"? 14:06:48 I don't trust User:ehird knowing what an IP address is, no. 14:07:03 We should do our best to keep that knowledge from him. 14:07:29 It's a small step from knowing what an IP address is to blowing up power stations remotely. 14:08:49 elliott: more evidence of Wikia being evil: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHackWiki:Community_Portal/Archive3#Google_Analytics 14:09:05 although, perhaps I misinterpreted it 14:10:01 I thought it meant that Wikia agreed to add Google Analytics, but not to tell the wiki contributors the results 14:10:23 I think it means they agreed to it, but then went back on that 14:10:44 and jayt inferred this is because they didn't want the contributors to see the stats 14:10:59 oh, that's not what reticent means 14:11:09 ais523: I think it means they agreed to it, but only grudgingly 14:11:12 oh, who knows 14:11:22 right, I conclude there isn't enough information there to know evil from nonevil 14:11:44 You should maybe eat some apples? 14:12:15 -!- augur has joined. 14:12:36 ais523: hey, "In constrast, foo is bar and baz" or "Foo, by constrast, is bar and baz", which is better? 14:13:02 oh, it should be "by contrast", but anyway 14:13:15 I think I prefer the latter 14:13:29 meh, /me just misuses "on the other hand" for the purpose 14:14:29 hmm, what the esoteric file archive needs is a wiki interface to it, or something 14:15:58 or, hmm, "note that your IP address is logged by user:ehird, so if you don't trust him with knowing what it is, don't even view the site"? 14:16:27 ais523: "If you do not want ehird to see your IP address, please retroactively unload this page. (You may find [[Feather]] to be helpful for this task.)" 14:16:55 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hug~♪). 14:17:01 but feather can't retroactively do I/O 14:17:18 it'd only work if your server were written in Feather, and let arbitrary people do arbitrary retroactive unviews 14:17:19 I don't think you can use "Feather" and "can't" in the same sentence like that. 14:17:30 `pastlog Feather.*can't 14:17:44 ais523: I'll retroactively rewrite the server in Feather some day 14:18:05 2011-12-22.txt:07:05:16: oerjan: that looks like a Feather operator, but I can't decode it 14:18:14 `pastlog Feather.*can't 14:18:20 2011-01-28.txt:23:37:31: elliott: even Feather can't do that 14:18:24 that only works if its current impl is capable of being retroactively modified, right? 14:18:34 ais523: A serial offender, it looks like. 14:18:42 erm 14:18:43 *fizzie: 14:18:49 Yes, indeed. 14:18:53 ais523: I'll retroactively make the implementation capable of being retroactively modified. 14:18:57 Obviously. 14:19:06 causality doesn't work like that! 14:19:17 Yes, to pre-empt your question, I will retroactively cause the Universe to have been programmed in Feather, making this all possible. 14:19:24 *all this 14:19:30 ais523: That's what they told Feather. 14:20:28 this reminds me of the discussion I had at secondary school, about whether it was possible to have something so omnipotent it could have an effect on the universe despite not existing 14:21:25 Like whoaaaaaaaa maaaaaaaan. 14:22:46 ais523: You have, like, ten seconds to convince me not to install Wikia's skin on Esolang. 14:22:56 elliott: don't be an idiot 14:23:01 at least, don't make it the default 14:23:06 besides, it wouldn't work properly 14:23:14 because of that crazy Wikia-centered sidebar and footer 14:23:22 also, it'd make half, or probably more, of the articles unreadable 14:23:27 also, I'm not even convinced it's open source 14:23:35 ais523: all i'm hearing is ways to make the wiki more esoteric 14:23:44 but the wiki is meant to be useful 14:23:52 pffft 14:23:56 that was THEN this is NOW 14:24:31 * ais523 seriously hopes that elliott is joking 14:24:37 you hope that a lot 14:24:53 ais523: by the way, you have to come up with a better subtitle 14:25:08 so far the winning suggestion is "Irrelevant" which is only 50% better than the current one 14:25:21 subtitle or what? 14:25:37 and where is it displayed 14:25:46 and why can't we use "enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity"? 14:26:10 http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle, and only in some skins 14:26:14 and the printable version of pages, I think 14:26:21 ah, OK 14:26:36 I know NetHackWiki's is "NetHackWiki, the NetHack wiki", but that was a blatant SEO attempt 14:26:47 I think Cologne Blue might be the only thing it displays in, actually 14:26:50 because Google was having trouble figuring out what the site was about 14:27:06 the matrix of solidity thing is already in the hostname and on the main page, I don't think it needs to proliferate any further 14:27:24 maybe "Have a nice kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen!" :D 14:28:33 (note: not serious) 14:30:21 should probably just be a mention of what the site is about 14:30:29 ("no, not that meaning of esoteric") 14:30:51 heh 14:31:01 how about "Stop using Cologne Blue" 14:31:03 "It's hideous" 14:31:24 yesss 14:32:33 elliott: that'd be out of place on the printable versino 14:32:35 *version 14:33:23 where did WoWwiki end up moving to, anyway? 14:33:28 -!- Ngevd has joined. 14:33:54 ais523: I checked, the printable version doesn't have it 14:34:03 http://www.wowwiki.com/Portal:Main still wikia 14:34:04 Hello! 14:34:07 ah, must be wowpedia.org, which is only the third-highest WoW-related wiki in the DDG results 14:34:14 (the other two are both Wikia under different domain names) 14:34:25 "In 2010, the administrators (unhappy with Wikia management) started an independent fork known as Wowpedia." 14:34:36 Happens a lot 14:34:41 "On December 4, 2010, Blizzard Entertainment began to incorporate links to Wowpedia, as well as the database site Wowhead, into the new version of its World of Warcraft Community Site.[16]" 14:35:01 ais523: hmm, wowpedia uses [[Portal:Main]] as their main page 14:35:02 are you to blame? 14:35:12 so does wowwiki.com for that matter 14:35:32 possibly, I am 14:35:39 I was the main proponent of Portal:Main on Wikipedia 14:35:44 although it obviously never happened 14:35:55 too many people scared about whether it would actually work or not 14:36:42 hmm, I should probably just remove the privacy policy link from the footer 14:36:48 annoying to have broken links in the standard chrome 14:38:22 and that split is interesting, wowpedia seems to have slightly more edits than wowwiki, but not by much 14:43:47 /// is such a lovely language 14:45:57 Wow, that works now 14:46:03 what does? 14:46:17 Typing "///" in the esolang's search bar 14:46:38 ah, yes, I made sure the new server can handle odd titles like that 14:46:47 :) 14:49:24 Ngevd: Hey, your HOMEPAGE links to the OLD WIKI. 14:49:42 * elliott has taken it upon himself to view every page of the wiki, or something. 14:49:54 Aaah! 14:50:13 Meh, it redirects 14:50:28 I'll make a note to fix it once I've got the Luigi edit ready 14:50:36 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: brb). 14:50:52 -!- MoALTz has joined. 14:53:56 ais523: ooh, hey, I can grant this permission: "allows hiding the user/IP from the block log, active block list, and user list when blocking. (not available by default)" 14:54:10 we could use that to clean up the user list incrementally, as accounts get reused 14:54:32 that seems like a good permission to grant to admins, indeed 14:54:35 (and then delete the accounts outright based on their hidden status later, if it seems worthwhile) 14:54:47 hmm, I'm not too happy about hiding from the block list 14:54:54 but the user list part is desirable 14:55:25 is there a list of hidden users anywhere public? 14:59:01 not sure 14:59:16 ais523: hey, what do you call things like Ook!, brainfuck ciphers or brainfuck substitutions or...? 14:59:27 brainfuck equivalents is the usual term, right? 14:59:34 although IIRC Ook! has a couple more commands than BF does 15:00:11 No it doesn;t 15:00:15 it doesn't 15:00:21 It has space for one more, but that is undefined 15:00:22 ais523: well, languages can be brainfuck-equivalent without being ciphers, I would say 15:00:33 e.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-RLE 15:00:53 hmm, OK 15:01:06 Yeah, Ook? Ook? isn't defined 15:01:08 oh, it's Cow that adds the extras 15:01:12 what's a snappy term for these: 15:01:13 *Languages which make it easy to write programs used as typical examples for new languages: 15:01:13 ** [[99]], [[CHIQRSX9+]], [[Hello]], [[Hello++]], [[HQ9+]], [[HQ9++]] and [[Huby]], 15:01:59 HQ9+-? 15:02:01 As well 15:03:23 Which I was sure existed, but I can find no evidence for 15:06:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:07:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:21:25 TODO: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.wikipedia.org&namespace=0&limit=500&offset=0 15:23:40 ais523: If someone claims to prefer the Wikia layout to Monobook, is that evidence that they're not actually human? 15:29:31 hmm, there has to be a bot that can convert external links to interwikis 15:29:45 Huh 15:30:19 Ngevd: ? 15:30:27 MIBBLLII's simplest (to my knowledge) equivalent to iota's i combinator is a valid brainfuck program that prints the null character 15:30:44 No wiat 15:30:47 *wait 15:31:37 It tests if the current cell is zero. If it is, it sees how far down the cell can go. Otherwise, it prints chr 0 15:31:49 -[-><]. 15:34:44 By the way, Ørjan: Are you the same Ørjan who sometimes came to the Hexagon gaming club in Trondheim? (I noticed that your home page is on NVG) --Rune 14:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC) 15:34:53 Is this... concrete evidence that oerjan actually exists?! 15:37:12 No, only that there exists a real person with the name Ørjan. 15:38:13 elliott: well, Wikia prefer the Wikia layout to Monobook 15:40:24 Wikia is an entity, rather than a person. 15:40:32 This adds evidence to elliott's hypothesis 15:40:40 but some person at Wikia must have decided that 15:43:51 Gregor: But he CONFIRMED it!!!!!! 15:44:50 if oerjan were nonexistent, he could have been lying 15:45:16 hmm, Adobe have decided to make Flash on Linux run only in Chrome 15:47:00 wow, really? 15:47:05 effectively 15:47:12 that sounds like "no" 15:47:15 apparently they have a partnership with Google now, or something 15:47:23 link pls 15:47:28 http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2012/02/adobe-and-google-partnering-for-flash-player-on-linux.html 15:47:29 and are changing Flash to use a Chrome-specific API 15:47:46 if you mean the pepper thing, that's not chrome-specific 15:47:56 well, it is atm 15:47:56 chrome is just the only existing implementation, but IIRC it's a completely public standard 15:48:06 because the rival browsers aren't planning to implement it 15:48:19 For Flash Player releases after 11.2, the Flash Player browser plugin for Linux will only be available via the “Pepper” API as part of the Google Chrome browser distribution and will no longer be available as a direct download from Adobe. 15:48:22 I'm sure a Netscape plugin API <-> Pepper bridge will pop up in the next five seconds. 15:48:29 oh, seems they're planning to distribute it only bundled with Chrome, too 15:48:30 No need for Mozilla to do anything. 15:49:05 although they're planning to security-fix the previous version for five years 16:00:40 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:02:44 -!- Ngevd has joined. 16:04:34 Sgeo: upssendorfs 16:05:34 62.143.96.18 - - [22/Feb/2012:15:38:40 +0000] "GET /wiki/User:6HeilPraktiker9 HTTP/1.1" 404 15054 "-" "-" 16:05:34 62.143.96.18 - - [22/Feb/2012:15:38:40 +0000] "GET /w/index.php?title=User:4HeilPraktiker8&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 200 17213 "-" "-" 16:05:37 Ha! 16:05:43 Think you're smart, do you?! 16:06:08 Odd that it didn't send a user-agent that time. 16:06:37 ais523: btw, does your atom feed URL use the lowercase c in Recentchanges? 16:06:42 it should be RecentChanges; right now you're getting redirected every time 16:06:48 (ofc, it could be someone else) 16:07:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:07:45 SUSPICIOUS. 16:10:26 /r/halflife is hilarious. 16:10:46 About a third of it is waiting for HL3. 16:11:24 Don't you mean HL2E3? 16:11:50 AKA HL2000. 16:16:29 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:16:48 -!- Ngevd has joined. 16:20:26 That doesn't make much sense elliott 16:22:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:22:39 hi ais523 16:22:43 hi 16:22:50 ais523: btw, does your atom feed URL use the lowercase c in Recentchanges? 16:22:50 it should be RecentChanges; right now you're getting redirected every time 16:22:50 (ofc, it could be someone else) 16:23:03 also, ooh, more detail on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker) 16:23:09 yes, it does 16:23:26 should I fix it to avoid putting stupid load on you? or is it negligible? 16:23:30 hell, I'll change it anyway 16:24:30 now none of the pages are coming up in my feed reader, on that specific feed 16:24:43 the entries themselves are, but they're all blank 16:25:07 ais523: hmm... 16:25:11 try resubscribing frmo the recent changes page 16:25:26 the load is neglenglegegilble, considering that spambots are loading pages like every five seconds anyway 16:25:32 *from 16:25:47 oh, now the original feed started working again when I did that 16:26:03 then when I deleted the duplicate, the original feed stopped working again 16:26:08 does this or doesn't this make any sense? 16:26:33 i have no idea 16:26:36 also, grr, I'm no good at /// 16:26:39 Are programms allowed to crash due to stack-overflow for a truth-machine :D? 16:26:47 That would make mine a bit shorter. 16:26:58 mRoman: most languages don't have specified stack limits 16:27:03 so any such overflow is an implementation limitation 16:27:05 oh well, I just deleted the other one, and am using the original 16:27:10 Now I'm using "until false" because that does not cause stack overflows :) 16:27:14 just like implementations of turing-complete languages can't usually use unbounded storage 16:27:25 so if your language doesn't specify a limited stack, it should be fine 16:27:43 mRoman: and "while true" does? 16:27:57 there is no while yet 16:28:02 ah, OK 16:28:08 elliott: what if your language implies a limited stack? 16:28:18 ais523: then it specifies one, surely? 16:28:21 e.g. C, where you can take addresses of things on the stack, and also calculate the number of bits in an address 16:28:58 hmm, really crazy idea: in C, do pointers of the same type that are bit-for-bit identical necessarily have to point to the same place? 16:29:49 because 16:30:03 any while loop can be written as an until loop I think. 16:30:56 ^ord 1 16:31:00 right, you just negate the condition 16:31:01 fungot???f 16:31:03 fizzie: ping 16:31:05 > ord '1' 16:31:06 49 16:31:16 hmm, is ^ord in BF? 16:31:31 I suppose it must be, it seems unlikely to be implemented in hardcoded Funge, and it can't be done in Underload 16:31:53 > ord '0' 16:31:54 48 16:32:19 that was obvious, wasn't it? 16:32:24 '0'-'9' are contiguous and in order 16:32:35 in every remotely commonly used character set 16:32:44 * elliott writes his first FALSE program 16:32:44 even C assumes that, even though it assumes hardly anything else about character sets 16:32:47 ais523: too lazy to think 16:35:27 @tell oerjan i tried to write a truth-machine in itflabtijtslwi but failed :( 16:35:27 Consider it noted. 16:36:14 /// is a really amazing language, actually 16:36:20 it's one of those truly innovative esolangs 16:36:43 LIKE OOK 16:37:29 anyway, a whole bunch of esolang ideas are converging, and it's kind-of worrying 16:37:34 basically, Anarchy, but pure and total 16:37:41 I think this language would be awesome 16:37:42 anyone who thinks that /// and Underload aren't the best esolangs is super dumb 16:37:45 and also useful 16:39:30 we should have a featured esolang, or something 16:39:38 since most of them are so terrible 16:40:16 I think the discussion that we last had about that possibility is what led to the "day of the day" box. 16:40:20 I like the concept of featured articles 16:40:34 per-month, probably 16:40:43 and we'd all cooperate on forwarding the selected language during that month 16:40:44 [$1.!]$^?0. <-- truth machine in FALSE? 16:40:47 @ping 16:40:47 pong 16:40:54 ais523: right; featuring the article itself is pointless, though, since Esolang's prose basically ranges from "what you'd expect" to "awful unformatted crap" with nothing in-between 16:41:07 so it'd be the esolang itself being featured 16:41:10 yep 16:41:12 although, ofc, an article of the former quality would be required 16:41:16 but if the article isn't up to scratch, we go fix it 16:41:29 ais523: At first that would be fine, but interesting languages are not produced at that rate, so after a year or so we'd be scraping I think. 16:41:48 in emergencies, we could repeat 16:41:51 Gregor: I could easily drum up a list of 20 Esolangs immediately worth featuring. 16:41:58 but hey, we'd be better off for a few years 16:42:01 elliott: OK, in /two/ years or so ^^ 16:42:04 Fair point. 16:42:07 Two years it two years. 16:42:11 *is 16:42:17 Gregor: Well, we'd just have to create better esolangs faster ;) 16:42:23 Heh 16:42:31 In case of droughts we could always just feature non-esolangs. 16:42:34 Like BF Joust, or such. 16:42:43 Although there aren't many of those pages on the wiki. 16:42:56 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:43:10 You can feature languages which would be esoteric if not for the fact that people actually use them 16:43:10 I doubt it would inspire any hugely devoted effort to work on the languages, though. 16:43:15 People aren't that committed to the wiki. 16:43:15 Our first feature: COBOL 16:43:53 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:43:55 elliott: no, although I imagine we have more readers than writers 16:44:07 and it'd help newbies to find languages other than BF that weren't pointless BF derivatives 16:44:33 We'd also have to be careful to avoid making the wiki celebrate Cat's Eye Technologies Year 16:44:41 Gregor: I don't see the problem??? 16:44:58 Is there yet an esolang featuring digital electronucs? 16:45:12 mRoman: WireWorld? any of the NAND-based ones? 16:45:34 I'm waiting to figure out what "electronucs" means. 16:46:17 I suspect the main problem with featured esolangs would be deciding on them 16:46:43 you come up with a list arbitrarily, I give good advice, Gregor gives bad advice 16:46:43 I suppose the simplest thing would be to have admins propose them and have a quick informal IRC vote to confirm them. 16:46:49 ais523: haha 16:46:53 I think we just need a small council to select a list, then have an open vote amongst them. 16:47:20 (Every month FOREVER) 16:47:21 do we allow people to nominate their own esolangs? on the one hand, they're familiar with them, on the other hand, they're likely to be biased 16:47:26 No. 16:47:34 Gregor: That's already 10x more bear-ocracy than anyone will bother to submit to ever. 16:48:00 See every previous esolang collaborative project in history. 16:48:23 'struth. 16:48:45 hey, the project that shall not be abbreviated as ABCDEF got halfway through before stopping 16:49:46 ^48[[$1.!]$!]?0. 16:49:50 http://codepad.org/xvT07d7U <- something like that. 16:50:27 Ah, based on digital /circuits/. 16:50:32 Taneb: Did you just optimise my program? :( 16:50:40 Gregor: Yes. 16:50:41 mRoman: wireworld applies, then 16:50:45 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:50:46 mRoman: also funciton 16:50:48 Wireworld, Circute, ... 16:50:58 elliott, I never saw your program 16:51:02 I corrected mine 16:51:41 Taneb: That's a truth-machine in FALSE, right? 16:51:45 Yes 16:51:53 Ok. 16:51:56 Next idea. 16:52:01 Inspired by your description on how you were about to make one 16:52:03 Is there an esolang based on analog signals? 16:52:16 Taneb: You can replace the one on the wiki with it, it's nicer-looking. 16:52:27 I need to test it first 16:52:46 elliott: Is it possible to get a list of the most-viewed pages? 16:53:07 Gregor: On the previous site, yes. On the new site, no, caching disables all page statistics features. However, I can get you the values with a little bit of work. 16:53:13 (from before the server move) 16:53:26 I plan to use analyse the logs to produce periodic counts of the most popular articles. 16:53:26 -!- Jafet has joined. 16:53:30 But that'll be a manual thing. 16:53:52 http://codepad.org/ubs1uGQi <- which would somewhat look like this. 16:54:04 elliott: I'm just wondering if those statistics are actually interesting, and not, y'know, ook and lolcode ... 16:54:26 ^48-[[$1.!]$!]?0. 16:54:27 Gregor: brainfuck, befunge and malbolge are the top few esolangs IIRC 16:54:40 There's http://web.archive.org/web/20060508040217/http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Popularpages but it's from 2006 so it's very out of date. 16:54:43 Let me check my SQL dump. 16:54:54 Yeah, but I suppose the truly interesting classics probably never make it to the top ... 16:55:04 Gregor: Oh, it was better than LOLcode. 16:55:45 I was thinking about whether featuredness could be a bit less human (and so less bureaucratic). Have the wiki choose five randomly with a heavy bias of some kind (top may not be the right bias), then have an open vote amongst them. 16:56:08 Probably won't actually work though, because the whole point is that some of them deserve featuredness in spite of nobody remembering them :( 16:56:11 Ugh, please tell me the dump actually includes this >_> 16:56:28 Gregor: clearly, we start off by flagging every page as "potentially featurable" 16:56:50 Who has that privilege? 16:56:53 then whenever a new language is created, or just when we feel like it, we pick five potentially featurable languages at random, and decide on one to deflag as potentially featurable 16:56:57 ais523: hey, I don't suppose you have a backup of [[Special:Popularpages]]? 16:57:02 elliott: no 16:57:18 `quote 16:57:19 `quote 16:57:21 `quote 16:57:21 718) but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot. 16:57:22 `quote 16:57:24 `quote 16:57:29 764) The mutable-integer Linux. 16:57:31 490) Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo On which note, I'm hungry 16:57:36 646) I think stealing is more appropriate 16:57:38 515) fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. 16:57:40 ais523: Too many "we"'s there ... 16:57:50 Wow, quote 515. 16:57:53 Gregor: it wasn't intended as a serious suggestion 16:58:00 *whew* 16:58:01 hmm, I like the first and last ones best there 16:58:09 elliott: opinions? 16:58:26 718 is ok 16:58:32 764 isn't funny out of context 16:58:35 i like 490 16:58:37 646 is unfunny 16:58:39 515 is good 16:58:54 OK, so 764 or 646 16:58:59 and 764 is more potentially funny 16:59:00 `delquote 764 16:59:02 `delquote 646 16:59:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:59:04 ​*poof* The mutable-integer Linux. 16:59:04 hth 16:59:08 you just deleted two of them 16:59:10 yep 16:59:16 ​*poof* I think stealing is more appropriate 16:59:19 `help 16:59:20 lol 16:59:21 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 16:59:23 now to watch the inevitable hg conflict 16:59:38 `delquote 646 16:59:41 ​*poof* i am sorry to disappoint you, but my musical taste is on the side abba, verdi, and celine dion. i know this may not be popular and that you would have preferred me to be a satanist. 16:59:45 argh 16:59:47 ... 16:59:50 `fuck the police 16:59:53 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fuck: not found 17:00:00 `revert 3 17:00:01 Done. 17:00:09 `delquote 646 17:00:12 ​*poof* I think stealing is more appropriate 17:00:13 `quote 763 17:00:14 `quote 763 17:00:14 `quote 763 17:00:15 `quote 763 17:00:18 763) The mutable-integer Linux. 17:00:19 ........... 17:00:24 763) The mutable-integer Linux. 17:00:26 `delquote 763 17:00:32 763) The mutable-integer Linux. 17:00:33 ​*poof* The mutable-integer Linux. 17:00:34 763) The mutable-integer Linux. 17:00:41 let's see if I can get a truth machine working first time in INTERCAL 17:00:47 I'll write it in the channel without testing it 17:00:50 and then run it, to see what happens 17:01:19 let's see, it takes input (which will be 0 or 1), then outputs it once on 0 and infinitely often on 1 17:01:48 DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP 17:01:49 now to tes tit 17:01:51 *test it 17:01:51 grr, Google doesn't have popularpages cached 17:02:00 * elliott tries bing 17:02:22 * elliott tries altavista 17:02:30 * elliott tries hotbot 17:02:33 haha 17:02:34 lol 17:02:41 don't bing and altavista both use the same index nowadays? 17:02:46 Surely the old server is still up, just not assigned to the right hostname? 17:02:50 wow, they've actually redesigned HotBot 17:02:59 Gregor: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ is up, but http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ is a redirect to esolangs.org/wiki 17:03:05 $ echo 'DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP' | ick -y tty.i 17:03:06 The program 'ick' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: 17:03:10 hmm, I don't think it's meant to do that 17:03:11 I suspect Graue's deleted the files/database 17:03:18 elliott: Mmm 17:03:21 -!- Ngevd has joined. 17:03:32 -!- Jafet has left. 17:03:47 HotBot: The lame and now not even nostalgic interface to the even more lame Lycos. 17:03:51 "The value of $wgHitcounterUpdateFreq is then fed into a randomizer, which then updates the page_counter fields of the stored pages when the random number is equal to a particular value." 17:03:52 oh, aha 17:04:11 ... wut 17:04:14 Gregor: OK, I can produce a list of popular pages 17:04:16 -!- Jafet has joined. 17:04:24 Gregor: do you have mysql installed? 17:04:27 elliott: can't you produce one from the HTTP log? 17:04:31 I really don't want to import this database myself... 17:04:36 elliott: Nope 17:04:39 ais523: yes, if you want wildly inaccurate statistics, rather than 7 years of them 17:04:44 oh, right, tty.i corresponds to the terminal 17:05:29 hmm, gcc is spouting warnings 17:05:31 I wonder what I've done wrong 17:05:35 what warnings? 17:05:43 looks like autoconf.h is included twice 17:05:46 Gregor: INSERT DELAYED INTO `mw_page` (`page_id`, `page_namespace`, `page_title`, `page_restrictions`, `page_counter`, `page_is_redirect`, `page_is_new`, `page_random`, `page_touched`, `page_latest`, `page_len`) VALUES (1,0,'Main_Page','',326802,0,0,0.28651027221839,'20120217091843',30117,2750),(5,8,'Monobook.js','sysop',335,0,0,0.197277670909909,'20070307173606',6847,3456),(138,8,'Currentevents','sysop',1472,0,0,0.525640084897764,'2010112407563 17:05:46 8',6980,13),(139,8,'Currentevents-url','sysop',1361,0,0,0.785110448286972,'20101124075619',6981,13),(696,8,'Sitesubtitle','sysop',507,0,0,0.365130377342115,'20070307173606',7538,16),(930,4,'Copyrights','edit=sysop:move=sysop',13015,0,0,0.135369432617,'20080222215606',11219,993),(932,10,'CompactTOC4','',811,0,1,0.387740738792,'20070307182825',7771,433),(933,10,'CompactTOC2','',785,0,1,0.159088183167,'20070307182825',7772,331),(960,0,'Language_list 17:05:46 ','',354189,0,0,0.077168495063,'20120217091503',30115,11937),(961,0,'Brainfuck','',221566,0,0,0.114796326371,'20120216064007',29960,25003),(962,0,'Brainfork','',17362,0,0,0.082227920981,'20111205122553',23594,1929),(963,0,'Wierd','',19611,0,0,0.430107527622,'20110403214059',21696,2994),(964,0,'PATH','',13212,0,0,0.254976121008,'20110417190036',16910,2729),(965,0,'SNUSP','',15399,0,0,0.060558338388,'20111114190620',25201,10941),(966,0,'Smallfuck', 17:05:51 '',23258,0,0,0.302840059147,'20110707024222',23595,2505),(967,0,'Spoon','',13058,0,0,0.468207379054,'20091112102619',16406,1751),(968,0,'LNUSP','',8342,0,0,0.035222082197,'20100428170446',17439,2667),(969,0,'Iag','',7871,0,0,0.063484546935,'20110401221642',21680,2093),(970,0,'Kipple','',11179,0,0,0.312570431762,'20101219051748',20514,3281),(971,0,'SMETANA','',12346,0,0,0.01475467089,'20110511152523',22747,3896),(973,2,'Rune','',5247,0,0,0.2022800 17:05:52 with different values each time 17:05:56 78643,'20101124003549',7785,512),(974,2,'Graue','',6707,0,0,0.021217745259,'20080714005918',12063,209),(975,0,'Homespring','',9261,0,0,0.02780164489,'20110107230704',20691,1259),(976,2,'Pgimeno','',3847,0,0,0.16126854167,'20101124003540',14015,949) 17:06:00 Gregor: I just want the (page_title, page_counter) fields from that, one page per line 17:06:02 Uhh ... thanks. 17:06:03 Eagerly awaiting the appropriate Perl script, thx 17:06:09 Then you can have yer page :P 17:06:24 yay, my INTERCAL program works 17:06:26 DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP 17:06:31 ais523: Lies. 17:06:33 now I'll put it in the article 17:07:38 Gregor: test it yourself if you don't believe me 17:07:45 I think this is only a popular problem because it is on the popular problems page 17:07:49 hmm, I wonder if that's the first time I've ever written an INTERCAL program correctly first time 17:08:05 Ngevd: we're making it a popular problem, so it can reasonably go there 17:08:14 hmm, is writing a deadfish interp on that page? because it should be 17:08:37 oh, it's lumped into "interpreter" 17:10:05 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Popular_problem&curid=1135&diff=30415&oldid=30383 :p 17:10:18 I wonder what the context was for my stealing quote 17:10:26 reasonable enough 17:10:38 `pastlog olsner.*stealing is more appropriate 17:10:48 `pastelog olsner.*stealing is more appropriate 17:10:56 olsner: ais523 didn't typo 17:11:01 oh 17:11:13 No output. 17:11:15 our log scripts are designed for naming confusion :D 17:11:19 I was just about to say that pastlog made sense as an alias for pastelog 17:11:21 No output. 17:11:35 `run ln -s pastelogs bin/pastelog 17:11:38 ln: creating symbolic link `bin/pastelog': File exists 17:11:52 `run ls -l bin/pastelog 17:11:55 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 602 Feb 22 17:11 bin/pastelog 17:12:01 `run ls -l bin/pastelogs 17:12:03 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 602 Feb 22 17:12 bin/pastelogs 17:12:03 `run ln -s pastelogs bin/pastelog 17:12:09 This is an extraordinarily stupid command to run. 17:12:12 looks like it's been cped rather than lned 17:12:23 Since ./pastelogs doesn't exist. 17:12:26 `pastlog stealing is more 17:12:35 2011-10-02.txt:00:44:04: `addquote I think stealing is more appropriate 17:12:38 elliott: So, you don't get how symlinks work then. Hooplah. 17:12:51 `log 2011-10-01 17:12:53 `run ls -l bin/pastlog 17:12:58 2012-02-22.txt:17:12:51: `log 2011-10-01 17:13:03 elliott: symlinks are relative to the symlink itself 17:13:05 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 102 Feb 22 17:13 bin/pastlog 17:13:31 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://64.62.173.65/logs/_esoteric/ | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 17:13:39 * ais523 swats Gregor with oerjan's flyswatter -----### 17:13:59 oh, right 17:14:04 I hate ln(1)'s interface 17:14:17 ais523: hey, you ruined the log URL 17:14:19 it's hard to know what to do better, though 17:14:22 Wha, what am I being swatted for? 17:14:37 Gregor: pushing the links off the end of the portion of the topic /my/ client shows 17:14:54 Oh fer 17:15:28 oh, there it is... http://64.62.173.65/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-10-02#004215olsner 17:15:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 17:15:53 If it's not going to look like a scam, it may as well have the real hostname. 17:16:00 elliott: I think stealing is more appropriate if you do it by copying the useful parts of the code (rather than e.g. building a library out of the reusable parts) 17:16:48 what [if] you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back 17:16:50 -!- elliott has set topic: http://5z8.info/getPersonalData-start_i1b6qg_back-to-africa | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 17:17:04 (thanks, ShadyURL!) 17:17:16 (that was much better than the other thing I said about stealing, IMO) 17:17:28 `addquote what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back 17:17:31 808) what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back 17:17:46 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 17:17:51 elliott: an URL shortener that's designed to produce suspicious-looking URLs? 17:18:02 also, CLC-INTERCAL's networking allows you to steal variables from other processes 17:18:06 -!- jix has joined. 17:18:06 which causes them to not have them any more 17:18:10 kind-of similar 17:18:37 oh, god 17:18:44 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants all the TOC links are broken 17:18:56 ais523: yes 17:19:32 * elliott fixes the TOC 17:19:38 ais523: cool 17:19:45 /* <-- Deadfish Interpreted Computer Language --> */ 17:19:48 that's a worrying comment syntax… 17:20:08 olsner: if the variable's read-only at the time, you can't steal it, because that would change it 17:20:12 but you can smuggle a copy of it instead 17:21:16 intercal cares about preserving the values of read-only variables? 17:21:30 olsner: it cares /that deeply/ 17:21:38 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 17:21:43 hi tzxn3 17:21:48 hi 17:21:49 I'm surprised, are you sure there isn't some keyword that will let you do it anyway? 17:22:11 (more to the point, it gives a possibility for unavoidable and unhandlable fatal errors that you can't do anything about and aren't your fault) 17:22:52 elliott: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#dc 17:22:59 what are the odds that the non-code section of that were written by zzo38? 17:23:02 (I haven't checked) 17:23:08 err, *was 17:23:47 ais523: the code section was too 17:24:10 err, that actually makes sense, in retrospect 17:24:14 ais523: can we /please/ delete [[Cobol on Cogs]]? I just had to remove it from the /language list/ 17:24:34 yep, offtopic 17:26:02 done 17:26:42 what's your favourite Scheme-related report revision? 17:27:36 5 17:27:39 or maybe 4, but probably 5 17:27:49 however, 7 looks like it might become my favourite 17:28:03 as they essentially reverted to 5 and decided to do the exact opposite of 6 17:28:13 which means they're actually making reasonable changes 17:28:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:29:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:29:52 haha, this anagolf deadfish thing is crazy 17:30:01 instead of !=256, the winning person did !~56 17:30:23 which means "interpret 56 as a string representation of a regexp, and check to see if the argument doesn't match it" 17:31:54 wait, how does /that/ work? 17:31:58 oh, duh 17:31:59 hah 17:32:35 it doesn't, obviously 17:32:39 it just happened to hit all the test cases 17:32:43 I've done a truth tester in Piet 17:33:08 Ngevd: upload it! 17:33:23 Ngevd: do you mean truth-machine? 17:33:52 it seems "I know it's not a popular problem since I'm probably the only one who has made them, but..." is turning into a self-defeating prophecy :) 17:34:04 ais523: btw, do you think Clue (Keymaker) is TC? 17:34:16 what's a truth-machine? 17:34:17 I haven't really looked into it 17:34:25 elliott, yes 17:34:33 Also, yes 17:34:44 olsner: a program that takes input (which is always going to be 0 or 1, undefined behaviour in other cases), and outputs it once and halts if it's 0, or forever in an infinite loop if it's 1 17:34:45 olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine 17:34:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:35:16 ' 17:35:25 oh, ok 17:35:36 @pl \x -> (if x == 0 then id else cycle) x 17:35:36 join (flip (flip if' id . (0 ==)) cycle) 17:35:51 > join (flip (flip if' id . (0 ==)) cycle) 0 17:35:52 Not in scope: `if'' 17:35:55 hmm 17:36:32 > repeat [] 17:36:33 [[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[]... 17:36:36 > cycle [] 17:36:37 *Exception: Prelude.cycle: empty list 17:36:42 hmm, interesting 17:36:48 I'd assume that cycle [] would be [] 17:36:55 as it can't reasonably be anything else 17:37:03 and I meant repeat, not cycle 17:37:06 in the first example 17:37:13 :t \x -> (if x == 0 then id else cycle) x 17:37:13 forall a. (Num [a]) => [a] -> [a] 17:37:18 yep 17:37:31 ais523: hmm, I'm writing a truth-machine in Forte 17:37:38 it's easy apart from the infinite-loop part 17:37:38 haha 17:37:44 right 17:37:47 (my first forte program) 17:37:48 be careful not to run out of numbers 17:37:51 You're so impartial. 17:37:59 http://sprunge.us/TTKi is what I have so far 17:38:20 elliott: 202 PROFIT, obviously 17:38:38 more seriously, start with a value higher than 666, so that you don't have clashes 17:38:41 say, 1000 17:38:42 (diff | hist) . . m Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php‎; 17:33 . . (-90) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (Reverted edits by Ehird (talk) to last revision by Chris Pressey) 17:38:45 err, what 17:38:47 then you have two lines, each of which increases the other's number 17:38:52 did I hit rollback accidentally or something? 17:39:02 that looks like a rollback to me 17:39:23 1000 LET 999=999+2 \ 1001 LET 1000=1000+2 17:39:38 that's the usual way to do an infinite loop in Forte, assuming that 2 still has its original value 17:39:49 hmm, I think I'll wait until I'm more awake to do it in Forte 17:40:01 it's 5:40pm, how are you not awake? 17:40:29 I woke up before 4 am 17:46:53 * elliott writes his first befunge-93 program 17:47:18 ah, and of course it's buggy 17:48:06 v @ 17:48:06 &v>1.v 17:48:06 >|^ < 17:48:06 >0^ 17:48:06 Gonna try to do a Whenever one 17:48:12 nicely laid out, if I do say so myself 17:48:20 oops, and buggy still :D 17:49:49 v @ 17:49:49 &>1.v 17:49:49 >|^ < 17:49:49 >0^ 17:49:49 there 17:49:51 that's nice, isn't it? 17:51:51 sigh, it's still broken 17:54:40 finally fixed 17:54:43 v @ 17:54:43 &>>1.v 17:54:43 >|^ < 17:54:43 >0 ^ 17:54:45 befugne am hard 17:55:37 &#v_>1.@ 17:55:39 >0^ 17:55:40 what does? put it in user interps 17:55:47 D'oh 17:55:52 Deewiant: Sigh, you shame me :( 17:55:55 quintopia: It's a truth-machine 17:55:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine 17:55:59 &#v_1>.@ 17:56:03 >0 ^ 17:56:05 Fixed 17:56:37 Deewiant: You can replace mine if you want :P 17:56:43 Nah 17:57:27 ais523: hey, how do you do input of a 0 or 1 digit in underlambda? ;) 17:57:29 according to that spec 17:57:35 it is the opposite of a truth machine 17:57:50 oh wait 17:57:51 nvm 17:58:37 Oh, 1 is supposed to infloop 17:58:49 &#v_1.1< 17:58:52 >0.@ 17:59:00 that looks better 17:59:06 # and _ is clever 17:59:27 Going with elliott's layout: 17:59:28 v @ 17:59:29 &>1.v 17:59:29 >|!0< 17:59:29 > ^ 17:59:50 elliott: I don't know, I/O is one of the big hangups in underlambda 18:00:11 Deewiant: Got ya beat: 18:00:13 &#v_0.@ 18:00:13 >1. 18:00:13 Actually, the zero is superfluous in both of these 18:00:34 elliott: You need to negate before the & for that 18:00:43 I suddenly have a strong urge to add a "featured page" box to the main page with a Droste-ish image of the main page as the featured page. 18:00:46 Deewiant: I don't think so. 18:00:51 Horizontal if = left if true. 18:00:52 elliott: (Unless I misremembered _'s order: I tend to) 18:00:54 I just checked. 18:00:59 Okay. 18:00:59 Which, yes, is bass-ackwards. 18:01:45 #_# .@# 18:01:51 I've got a Whenever program, but I'm not sure if it's compliant 18:01:55 1 2#-read(); 18:01:55 2 defer(1) print("0") 3#-1; 18:01:56 3 defer(2) print("1") 3#1; 18:02:10 # _# .@# 18:02:15 #._.@ 18:02:16 This almost works 18:02:18 Dammit Deewiant 18:02:20 Pre-empting me 18:02:33 Deewiant: Dose the first one not work? 18:02:40 The first one skips over the & at the start 18:03:33 _# .@# 18:03:36 What about this: 18:03:37 #.&# :#_.@ 18:04:11 You're skipping over the _ 18:04:15 Oh, hmm, right 18:04:35 Hint: the canonical "print string" is >:#,_ 18:05:54 I can't figure out why #.&# :#:_.@ doesn't work on 1 :( 18:05:58 It ends up going right 18:06:06 But I don't see why, since _ is testing a 1 18:06:28 You need to skip the @ from the right side 18:06:30 # _# .@# 18:06:32 This is broken, btw 18:06:35 Can anyone check my Whenever program there? 18:06:45 I'm going to try, now 18:06:46 Deewiant: Why? I should never go right towards it in the 1 codepath 18:06:48 elliott: How's that broken? 18:06:51 ais523: in what? 18:06:53 Deewiant: Try it on input 1 18:06:54 It halts 18:06:55 befunge-93 18:06:55 elliott: It goes left towards it 18:06:56 same as you two 18:07:01 TYes, it does, but it skips it 18:07:04 Thanks to the left-most # 18:07:12 elliott: That's not how # works in Befunge-93 18:07:36 Befunge-93 is 80x25 18:08:17 elliott: Also, that one doesn't halt in ccbi --befunge93, at least. :-P 18:08:47 &#:_.@#1 18:08:47 So close 18:08:58 Deewiant: Yeah, I'm using some crappy JS impl 18:09:30 I think I beat both of you, although it has a stack overflow in it 18:09:31 &>:.:_@ 18:09:34 Got it! 18:09:34 &#::_.@# 18:09:58 just because funge-space wraps, doesn't mean program execution has to 18:10:31 ais523: That's lovely 18:10:38 ais523: It'd be nice to have one with constant stack usage, though 18:10:49 yep, sadly removing either : doesn't work 18:11:15 &# _.@#11 18:11:19 I'll put mine and yours on 18:11:22 Deewiant: &#::_.@# is nicer 18:11:25 No explicit digits 18:11:44 But it uses more stack D-: 18:11:53 &:.~#@_>1# .#< 18:11:56 Deewiant: Mine uses O(1) stack 18:12:05 elliott: But it's a bigger 1 than my 1 18:12:37 bleh, I need to physically be in the computer labs to do this GPU programming 18:12:46 I can remote into the servers just fine, but they try to run it on my local GPU 18:12:51 which isn't made by NVidia 18:13:08 (kind of interesting that the program can run on the local GPU through an ssh -Y tunnel) 18:13:52 Run it on the remote X server instead? 18:14:13 but it's actually drawing to the screen, or trying to 18:14:24 I can run it on the remote server without issues, but then I can only get text output back 18:14:30 which is no good, as I'm meant to be testing the UI 18:14:35 haha, I just independently rewrote ais523's 18:14:38 elliott: &# :_:.@# is one char longer but it uses less O(1) stack 18:14:45 I wonder if OpenCL even allows this. 18:14:59 surely, it's not an OpenCL issue at all? 18:15:09 it's up to the X server what GPU it decides to run on, I guess 18:15:24 Deewiant: As far as O(1) stack usage goes, I'm only interested in a shorter program :P 18:15:37 OpenCL is irrelevant because you are using CUDA. 18:15:42 I'm just complaining that OpenCL sucks. 18:15:45 elliott: Well BLEH 18:16:38 Jafet: well, I'm using an Intel graphics card, so I'm not using CUDA 18:16:49 there is an NVidia graphics card on the server I'm trying to remote into, but it seems to be irrelevant 18:17:06 (and if you'd ever wondered why servers needed top-of-the-range graphics cards, this is the explanation) 18:18:05 I thought you said that it would only run on nvidia GPUs. 18:18:45 I've got a truth machine in Madbrain. 18:18:56 Sadly, a thruth machine is not turing complete. 18:19:11 Jafet: it does only run on nvidia GPUs 18:19:18 because CUDA's an NVidia thing 18:19:59 http://www.supermicro.nl/products/nfo/files/gpu/SW7046GT_FC405.jpg 18:20:42 Jafet: huh? 18:21:25 What? 18:21:45 Whuh? 18:24:40 I still think Madbrain can not be turing complete 18:28:06 unless somebody finds a way to duplicate data 18:29:12 ie if someone finds a program in madbrain, which reads one number from the user and outputs it twice 18:32:56 mRoman: can't you just use control flow to duplicate data? 18:33:00 ais523: hey, do you think this direct quote is a copyvio? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bub 18:33:12 it could be fair use, I suppose 18:33:15 do an if statement to determine between 0 and 1, then push twice 18:33:28 I suspect it's fair use 18:33:56 Done a MarioLang Truth Machine for fun. 18:34:00 Should I put on page? 18:34:02 yes 18:34:09 ais523: if also destroys data 18:34:22 if(a>b) <- you lose a and b 18:34:28 mRoman: doesn't matter, the data, when destroyed, survives in the control flow 18:34:42 ais523 is right 18:34:44 then you can get the data-dependent bit of the control flow to push the same data back twice 18:35:07 hm. ic 18:35:11 like if (a=0) push 0, push 0. if (a=1) push 1. push 1. repeat for all a 18:36:05 quintopia: actually, it's more like if(a=0) push 0, push 0 else push 1, push 1 18:36:08 wait, I forgot I could be doing these edits as a bot 18:36:10 because a isn't preserved by the comparison 18:36:10 oh well 18:36:17 might as well bloat recent changes more now that I've started 18:36:25 ais523: havent actually read the madbrain spec 18:37:21 -!- ais523 has set topic: logs: http://5z8.info/getPersonalData-start_i1b6qg_back-to-africa | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 18:37:27 http://codepad.org/ZpDXbI41 <- that can print the number twice 18:37:31 that URL doesn't look like a logs URL at all 18:37:34 if and only if the number is either 0 or 1 18:37:43 yep 18:37:46 and 0 and 1 is all you need 18:38:15 which would make it indeed turing complete 18:38:16 more interesting, at least for me, is the way that there's no way to push to the bottom of the stack, but a whole bunch of commands pop from there 18:38:25 so the question is about whether you can get infinite storage 18:38:26 the code for duplicating a bigger number (written as a string of 1s and 0s) might be complicated? 18:38:36 indeed 18:38:39 quintopia: Yes 18:39:13 hm. 18:39:18 probably just nested ifs will do it 18:39:30 yeah it would 18:39:40 if does not compare the two top-most elements 18:39:44 btw, I'm disappointed by your link, I was hoping codepad would do Madbrain 18:40:09 it compares the element at the top with the element at bottom 18:40:59 duplicating a number with 2 bits is already complicated enough 18:43:48 the trick with such languages is to typically not try to treat them like regular languages 18:43:56 you could quite possibly do cyclic tag in madbrain, for instance 18:44:21 I think I've done a Numeric Topline one 18:44:23 16469004801100010 18:45:08 I think literals, g and q are by themselves enough for TCness 18:45:08 phew 18:45:11 finally i am done 18:45:36 hey, Madbrain isn't categorised 18:45:52 183 recent changes entries today 18:45:55 that has to be some kind of record 18:45:57 ais523: I'M ON IT 18:46:00 * elliott cleanup machine 18:46:34 mRoman: did you invent it in 2010? 18:46:45 Wow, and almost all of them are non-spam! 18:46:51 elliott: Yes. 18:46:54 Ngevd: 100% of them, actually 18:47:02 This new wiki is AWESOME 18:47:02 actually, regular tag is simpler than cyclic tag 18:47:07 Go Alan Turing year! 18:47:18 mRoman = Feuermonster? 18:47:22 Yes. 18:47:25 ag, OK 18:47:28 *ah 18:48:08 nearly two years and it's still not proofen to be either turing-complete or non-turing-complete :) 18:49:39 mRoman: it's TC 18:49:45 I'm working on a tag system -> madbrain compiler right now 18:50:03 how do I make that interp read the file to input from the command line, rather than always opening input.mb? I don't really know Python 18:50:45 2.6 or 3.2? 18:50:58 change it to 18:50:59 Or rather, Python 2.x or 3.x 18:51:07 f=open(sys.argv[1],"rb") 18:51:14 or maybe sys.argv[0] 18:51:21 * elliott reformats http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine 18:51:24 it was getting unwieldy 18:51:28 raw_input()? 18:52:01 if you mean in a "readline" style then open(raw_input(),"rb") 18:52:28 I meant argv 18:52:38 f=open(sys.argv[1],"rb"); then 18:52:46 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 18:52:48 thanks 18:53:36 ais523: The 'b' is redundant unless you care about Windows and want binary newlines. 18:53:40 (As in \r\n newlines.) 18:53:51 elliott: indeed 18:53:56 but I was just making a minimal change to the program 18:53:58 ais523: Also, you probably want "with open(...) as f:" 18:54:05 to the existing interp, that is 18:54:07 for deterministic resource allocation 18:54:12 oh, I see 18:54:30 deterministic resource allocation? 18:55:14 mRoman: There's no guarantee that the file handle will be closed in a timely fashion if you just open() and leave the finaliser to close it. 18:55:26 CPython uses refcounting so it will, but other implementations don't and there's no guarantee CPython always will. 18:55:32 Admittedly, leaking one file handle is not the biggest deal in the world. 18:56:00 file handles should be freed by the os on program termination anyway 18:56:15 mRoman: first line in the Madbrain program is numbered 1? 18:56:34 It uses an array. So it is zero based. 18:56:42 ah, OK 18:56:52 * ais523 thinks this sounds suspiciously like an implementation detail 18:57:10 Then you'd better not look at Stlang. 18:57:19 That has python implementation details hidden all over the place ;P 18:57:49 ais523: btw, is it just me or is the "enhanced" recent changes worse than the normal recent changes? 18:58:21 it's less useful, indeed 18:59:51 Oy, all your commit summaries are /so British/. 19:00:29 The r opcode is also an implementation detail I guess. 19:01:54 if you want to read from stdin you should change it to 19:02:00 elif(l[i]=="r"):s.append(int(sys.stdin.read(1))) 19:02:06 how do I do a no-op in madbrain? or can't I? 19:02:22 space 19:02:26 thanks 19:02:37 should be mentioned in the spec, reallyt 19:02:38 *really 19:02:48 any char which is not an opcode is a nop 19:02:56 Gregor: wat 19:03:14 -ise is not even en-gb-x-oed, so it's not that british :) 19:03:38 What? 19:04:00 @ping 19:04:00 pong 19:04:10 * Phantom_Hoover turns the network meters off. 19:04:19 They only ever confuse me. 19:13:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:13:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:13:45 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 19:14:08 hmm, why isn't this working? 19:14:37 ais523: why isn't what working? 19:14:39 -!- Ngevd has joined. 19:14:42 Hmm... 19:14:45 oh, ofc 19:14:48 What's people's opinions on Solaris? 19:14:51 Also, Hello! 19:15:09 Ngevd: the proprietary version is Oracle-controlled 19:15:15 but solaris is famous for being fairly crappy as far as userland goes 19:15:26 ais523: btw, we don't know that the constants on [[brainfuck constants]] are optimal, do we? 19:15:38 no 19:15:47 well, some are provably optimal, like + fo r1 19:15:49 *+ for 1 19:15:51 well, yes :) 19:15:57 Because I have came into possession of a CD containing a copy of Solaris 11 through possibly mildly illegal means 19:16:23 ais523: I was thinking that since they establish lower bounds that reduce the program-space vastly, and since two of BF's instructions can't be used in them, it might be feasible to brute-force better ones 19:16:42 Ngevd: put it on a VM? 19:16:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:17:16 [22/Feb/2012:19:16:47 +0000] "GET /wiki/Jot HTTP/1.1" 200 6227 "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot" 19:17:28 it's a good thing WP has articles on a bunch of non-notable esolangs, or we'd get no traffic 19:18:06 :) 19:19:25 yay, it works 19:19:28 Madbrain is TC 19:19:52 \o/ 19:19:52 ¦ 19:19:52 ´¸¨ 19:20:03 thank you, myndzi. 19:20:06 anyone know here if a 2-tag system with an alphabet of size 9 can be TC? 19:20:16 *anyone here know 19:20:24 I'm reasonably sure it can be, 9's easily large enough 19:20:30 even if one's a halt state 19:21:42 the new MediaWiki diff colours are so weird and new 19:21:52 http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki&diff=55218&oldid=54686 19:23:58 Hmm... 19:24:08 You know who'd know if my Whenever program would work or not? 19:24:12 David Morgan-Mar! 19:25:54 GET /w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Talk%3AMain_Page?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&ret... 19:25:58 these spambots... 19:27:48 ais523: hmm, now I'm confused -- "Turing-equivalent" is identical to "Turing-complete" when said of a language, right? 19:28:09 no, according to mark chu-carroll, "turing-complete" is meaningless for a language 19:28:28 Nah, Banana Scheme and its ilk are Turing complete but not Turing equivalent 19:28:30 if turing-complete is meaningless for a language, surely turing-hard is as well? 19:28:30 a turing-complete program is one that can only be implemented in a turing-equivalent language 19:28:39 Ngevd: no, banana scheme and its ilk are _not_ turing-complete 19:28:42 just like twoducks isn't 19:29:07 one day I'm going to figure out what complexity theorist invented the "complete" and "hard" terminology 19:29:07 They can implement arbitrary Turing machines 19:29:08 and kill them. 19:29:17 Ngevd: yes, but that isn't what Turing-complete means (if anything) 19:29:18 * ais523 goes ahead and says "turing complete" on the wiki mainspace anyway 19:29:27 ais523: but if turing-complete is meaningless for a language, surely turing-hard is as well? 19:29:32 not sure 19:30:02 * elliott thinks we should use the wiki to POV-push our favourite pedantically-correct terms for things, but is too confused about this one to figure out whether we should or not 19:31:39 As far as I'm concerned, "Turing-hard" means "capable of implementing a universal Turing machine," and "Turing-complete" means both Turing-hard and "capable of being implemented by a Turing machine." That last one's a bit tricky since it gets into nitty issues of encoding and such, but I think usually gives the right idea. 19:32:14 I thought Turing-Hard meant "I/O aside, cannot be implemented on a Turing Machine" 19:32:19 and Madbrain proof is on the wiki now 19:32:26 Gregor: The former admits . 19:32:28 mRoman: that wasn't difficult, you should have asked me earlier :) 19:32:36 Gregor: You need some universal quantification in there. 19:32:53 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92) 19:33:18 elliott: The whole point of "Turing-hard" is to admit such languages. 19:33:46 Gregor: Huh? But that's irrelevant to languages that can do "all UTMs + more". 19:34:01 Your definition of TH and TC both admit fancy-L. 19:34:29 Wait wait, m-- argh, Fancy L seriously ruins everything always. 19:35:02 Gregor: Turing-hard should be "capable of implementing every universal Turing machine". 19:35:10 Your definition of TC can stay unchanged. 19:35:37 Right right. 19:35:43 * elliott thinks basing things on Turing machines might be a mistake, since they're so unlike most languages. 19:35:50 Anyway, the terms are all still silly since "Turing" isn't a computational class. 19:35:52 They're more like CAs than languages, really. 19:36:15 Gregor: So what should we call things that can implement all UTMs, and what should we call things that are equivalent to UTMs? 19:37:29 Bill and Steve. 19:37:47 :'( 19:38:24 So, all Steves are Bills, but not all Bills are Steves 19:38:39 Except for the Steves that are fancy L 19:38:54 Also, should I email DMM concerning my Whenever program? 19:39:03 Fancy L? 19:39:12 http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 19:39:12 hmm, the truth machine is actually really quite a good concept for showing off languages 19:39:35 Screw this, I'm sending this email 19:39:48 ais523: yes, it's inspired 19:39:48 Sent 19:40:00 ais523: I don't even know what a tag system is and how they work ;) 19:40:24 There's an article for that! 19:40:24 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system 19:40:28 "A tag system is a restricted kind of Post normal system where productions can only be uniquely selected based on the first symbol of each of their antecedents." 19:40:32 Okay, maybe that's not very helpful. 19:40:35 your compiled example programm apparently leaves the stack in a state of 19:40:38 mRoman: they're on my list of "things to compile into languages to prove them TC" 19:40:45 But the definition section is a bit clearer! 19:40:46 of [3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 1] 19:40:51 Choose a particular value for L and P, map turing machines to programs written for that L and P 19:40:56 There, that's a mapping 19:41:00 Am I missing something? 19:41:00 heh, that article used to be even "better": http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Tag_system&oldid=1342 19:41:05 Well, in other news, I passed that Open University module 19:41:07 good ol' R.e.s. 19:41:11 mRoman: H3333331 (halt). 19:41:17 `quote Open University 19:41:20 653) [in the context of Open University] "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" 19:41:20 seems like R.e.s. has left the wiki :( 19:41:24 yes, i saw that. 19:41:30 except that the H is missing ;) 19:41:38 how do you put an H on the stack? :) 19:41:53 ais523: hey, should I install Cite on Esolang? 19:41:54 but I have no idea what 19:42:00 3333331 should mean 19:42:01 elliott: what does it do? 19:42:02 or 211 19:42:06 mRoman: it doesn't mean anything, it's abstract 19:42:08 ais523: and 19:42:13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system and http://esolangs.org/wiki/P%E2%80%B2%E2%80%B2 currently both fake it 19:42:18 hmm 19:42:20 if you think it'd be useful 19:42:46 * elliott is mostly just annoyed at the inconsistent formatting of footnotes :P 19:42:48 mRoman: not all languages work the same way; tag systems are mindblowingly low-level 19:42:54 it's like asking what 01001101 means 19:43:21 anyway, you might find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system helpful 19:43:31 In even more news, I am fairly confident elliott is real 19:44:18 elliott: Hmmmmmm, Sgeo has a point and I don't recall what the answer is; if you choose to map all UTMs to a fixed L, P, then your mapping's range isn't all possible fancy-L programs, but it's still a valid mapping ... 19:44:42 A 2 appends 331 19:45:03 but why is the 1 dropped? 19:45:13 211 -> 1331 (not 11331) 19:45:19 Gregor: Well the mapping has to preserve semantics :P 19:45:26 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:45:37 elliott: So? Your L,P /is/ a UTM. 19:45:48 I'm confused. 19:46:02 L and P aren't relevant. 19:46:06 You just pick two values. 19:46:11 And call it ℒ. 19:46:17 OK, I pick any L, and P as an implementation of a UTM. 19:46:19 The original L was Pascal and the original P was a brainfuck interpreter. 19:46:25 That results in the *language*. 19:46:28 Yes. 19:46:32 So it's ℒ(Pascal,BF interpreter) you have to prove Turing whatever. 19:46:53 seems like it always removes 2 digits 19:46:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:47:01 but just looks at the first. 19:47:15 Gregor: In conclusion idgi :P 19:47:15 -!- kallisti has joined. 19:47:16 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 19:47:16 -!- kallisti has joined. 19:47:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:47:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 19:47:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:47:27 Ohohoh, the problem is the quantification, duh. The claim is about fancy-L for all fancy-L. 19:47:29 I'll be back later 19:47:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:47:50 But I would argue that the mapping exists, it's just not discoverable. 19:48:45 Gregor: I'm not sure what you mean >_> 19:48:49 I think L and P are confusing things. 19:48:59 They're essentially just an explanation device. 19:49:11 They don't factor in any proofs of TCness or whatever because they're fixed right at the start of discussion to set a language. 19:50:31 "The major criticism regarding Cite.php is that it renders the editing of references much more tedious. Moreover, because many casual Wikipedia users are not familar with the cryptic Wikitext tags that they find with the use of Cite.php, it is likely that the net effect of Cite.php is often to deter new users from making edits to reference sections. Although Wikipedia supposedly got its name from the Hawaiian word "wiki-wiki", meaning "quick-quic 19:50:31 k", Cite.php is arguably neither quick nor easy for the average Wikipedia user." 19:50:41 You know when you see a criticism section and it's immediately obvious it was written by one person? 19:54:15 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:54:21 Yeah, I'm back to not getting fancy-L at all again. 19:54:29 -!- Ngevd has joined. 19:55:38 Gregor: OK, let me explain it without any polymorphism. 19:55:51 Fancy L is a language designed by blah in the year blah. 19:56:05 There is one instruction: B -- reads a brainfuck program and input (in dbfi) from stdin, and runs it. 19:56:12 Is Fancy L TC? 19:56:16 *in dbfi format 19:56:28 (And no program can contain anything but a single B instruction.) 19:56:37 (So "B" is the sole Fancy L program.) 19:57:18 On the one hand, there is a Fancy L program that interprets arbitrary brainfuck programs, and brainfuck is TC. Proofs of TCness by implementing a brainfuck interpreter are very common. 19:57:26 On the other hand, you cannot translate an arbitrary UTM into a Fancy L program. 19:57:28 So? 19:59:00 I would argue that we've essentially just found a corner where our encoding is hurting us. Turing machines do not have input distinct from state. If you consider a program by that notion, such that the only way to consider a program in reduced-fancy-L is with both state (well, code) and input, then certainly it's TC. If not, then we can argue about pedantry forever :) 19:59:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:59:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 19:59:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:59:46 Gregor: Dude, the whole point of Fancy L is to poke at that ambiguity :P 20:00:02 Yeah, yeah, I know that X-D 20:00:10 The idea is that we intuitively don't want Fancy L to be TC, so we need to use definitions of TCness that exclude it. 20:00:16 Sure sure. 20:00:20 But then we get the result that implementing BF in a language is *not enough* to prove it TC. 20:00:22 I give, you're right 20:00:31 Whether Fancy L is TC or not depends on how we ignore I/O 20:00:36 And we have to write complicated compilers insteadd. 20:00:38 *instead 20:01:38 Gregor: BTW, I'm not sure what I'm meant to be right about. 20:01:41 I'm not sure what the topic is at all :P 20:02:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:03:22 elliott: I was just viewing the whole problem wrong, since the point, as you said, is to poke at that distinction. 20:03:43 I do think the page could be written better :) 20:04:01 I basically just copied cpressey's original description, IIRC. 20:04:04 Let me find a link to it... 20:04:22 Gregor: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php 20:04:23 See the last comment 20:06:20 What is Fancy L anyway? 20:06:40 Complex computer science that I don't fully understand. 20:06:48 Is there a link? 20:07:07 mRoman, an attempt to pry at some assumptions in the definition of Turing-completeness. 20:07:07 http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 20:08:10 FSVO complex 20:08:44 It's simple in the problem it poses 20:08:49 Complex in the solution to the problem 20:08:56 so 20:09:09 A language with one instruction which reads a BF program from stdin and interprets it? 20:09:16 like that? 20:09:30 Yes 20:09:45 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 20:09:45 I see. 20:09:47 Is that language Turing Complete? 20:09:49 elliott: His very first line on its description would have cleared up everything ;) 20:10:35 Gregor: Good thing it's a wiki and you can edit it! 20:11:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:26:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:28:00 hey ais523 isn't here, i was going to swat him for stealing the flyswatter. 20:28:00 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 20:28:13 Hello, Oerjan 20:28:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:28:35 hi Ngevd 20:31:26 elliott: an itflabtijtslwi (wow i didn't have to expand the acronym before typing it!) truth-machine is probably going to need the entire main loop scaffolding. 20:32:04 other than that, it shouldn't be that hard. 20:33:17 eek you've talked a lot 20:34:07 Count the links to fancy L 20:34:42 argh more than 100 edits since i logged off as well 20:34:46 *wiki 20:35:46 elliott: with this wiki traffic i almost miss the spammers, at least i could skip their new pages :P 20:38:14 that truth machine got a real popular problem really fast :P 20:38:21 *became 20:38:34 Yup 20:38:42 I'm responsible for at least three 20:40:32 * oerjan swats ais523 for stealing the flyswatter. -----### 20:40:50 oerjan: It's listed unter popular problems, so it has to be . 20:40:53 *under 20:41:11 mRoman: you realize it was put there today, right 20:41:42 (just checking) 20:43:29 oerjan: Of course, I'm joking. 20:47:27 There is now a BIT Truth-machine 20:48:50 :) 20:54:53 back 20:55:05 oerjan: most of the edits are resource -> resources ;P 20:55:07 *:P 20:56:17 heh 20:56:36 at least mediawiki tabs are lightweight 20:57:05 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:58:32 Alan Turing is turing complete :-D 20:58:57 He is a proof that humans can devise turing machines. 20:59:03 itidus22: that is fairly unlikely, and not just because he's dead. 20:59:09 being able to devise something isn't the same as being able to implement it 20:59:18 you can easily output a representation of a turing machine with cat 20:59:22 that doesn't make cat TC 20:59:37 alan turing was completely turing 20:59:44 that he was. 20:59:52 oh 20:59:53 CT 21:01:27 ok ok 21:01:57 the proof that alan turing is turing complete is he can program with http://esolangs.org/wiki/English 21:02:26 hmm 21:02:55 now i wonder if there is any natural languge which is not TC 21:04:50 ya.. i'll afk 21:05:10 itidus22: no that isn't a proof. you need to show he can _run_ any english program. 21:05:31 oh my afk is broken 21:05:39 elliott: 13:00 < elliott1> what is the difference between $ and . ? 21:06:00 I'm going to pretend that elliott1 = elliott. 21:06:01 AN IMPOSTOR1 21:06:14 shachaf: No. No. Why must they have my name 21:06:20 Why, 21:06:34 elliott: I note that there's not a singe "eliot" on Freenode. 21:06:37 Other than you, I mean. 21:06:54 elliott: when i become world dictator, i can prohibit anyone but you from being named elliott, if you like. ok maybe i'll exempt conal. 21:07:06 oerjan: thank you, that would be wonderful 21:07:15 oerjan: What about elliottt? 21:07:26 He deserves an exemption. 21:07:32 my intuition tells me that computation doesn't happen without some sentient being having been responsible for it.. but my intuition isn't so great. 21:07:47 And elliottcable, I guess. I mean, where would we be without elliottcable? 21:08:07 hmm, are there any elliots around? or eliotts? 21:08:16 wow, I'm so used to our elliott that both those spellings look incredibly wrong 21:08:29 That's because they are wrong. 21:08:32 itidus22: note that some physicists propose that the entire _universe_ is just computation... 21:09:44 i understand it to be the case that the universe isn't chaos. i guess computation is constrained by the same lack of chaos 21:10:03 what 21:10:31 hmmm... every fact in the world is like a piece of a crossword puzzle 21:10:44 which makes it sort of possible to infer one fact from another 21:11:08 whereas, if each fact was truely arbitrary you couldn't really make progress in finding other facts 21:11:27 itidus22: um the word chaos nowadays has a technical mathematical meaning which shows up in many phenomena, like e.g. the weather. 21:12:08 -!- Ngevd has joined. 21:12:09 yeah i have these ideas which i don't know the correct names for 21:12:19 Hello again 21:12:26 I've been making Truth-machines 21:13:12 yay 21:13:17 i should probably get more serious about the development of fartboob, sofar i just have . and , and [ and ], they're boob, fart, tits and poop, but i'm kind of stuck here 21:13:55 oklopol: assign <>+- to the same word 21:14:04 which is actually used is deduced from context 21:14:10 :D 21:14:17 itidus22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness_of_Mathematics_in_the_Natural_Sciences may be relevant (note i haven't read it myself) 21:14:25 that's actually an awesome idea 21:14:40 oerjan: i think the term here is "enabler" 21:14:59 like, i guess with a cellular automata, on an nth iteration you can make some predictions about the previous iteration.. if its alive now then it must have had either 2 or 3 live neighbors last iteration 21:15:26 elliott: hey if he actually read such stuff he might start getting deeper ideas 21:16:15 oerjan: unlike you to be so optimistic :) 21:16:44 :( 21:16:46 so, if you take a game of life you could use it like a crossword puzzle to try and guess what the previous iteration was 21:16:56 that could be a kind of sudoku-like game 21:17:11 oerjan: see, it's much easier just to move on to something else. 21:17:17 elliott: okay 21:18:14 all phenomena in the world have this aspect that you can learn about a second thing by studying the first thing 21:19:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:19:48 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:20:16 anyway computation is predictable enough that they are able to crack codes 21:21:57 it would really help to learn before trying to convey 21:23:52 I've got a Truth-machine in constantinople 21:24:28 brb 21:24:45 elliott: erm the ==Introduction== section in Brainfuck constants was put there because of the general editing problem. 21:25:15 otherwise it's awkward to edit that part. 21:26:01 (not impossible, there's a general §ion=0 trick but not all people may know about that.) 21:26:46 oerjan: the editing problem is gone 21:26:49 or well 21:26:55 I suppose it might still be annoying for IE users 21:27:02 bah 21:27:17 oerjan: one of my axioms in reasoning about the universe is that another concious being can't divide my conciousness in such a way that they partake in it 21:27:33 from your table edit, i take it that section name problem is also gone? 21:27:42 dunno what problem it is but I fixed the TOC 21:28:03 oerjan: anyway, you could add a link [{{fullurl:Brainfuck constants|action=edit|section=0}} Edit this introduction] or whatever 21:28:12 but it works fine in my browser; are you sure your IE has problems with it nowadays? 21:28:34 * oerjan tries 21:29:26 elliott: your TOC fix was probably because the new mediawiki does _not_ have that strange section renaming stuff, so you had to change the names there but that means the old problem no longer applies 21:29:38 ok 21:29:39 hm. 21:29:54 I suppose old MW did weird things with sections with numeric names or something 21:29:55 What about an esolang based on longest common substring. 21:30:00 only the longest common substring is executed. 21:30:11 that even if the entire state of the universe were identical for each of us... there is no guarantee we would experience the same thing 21:30:32 theres just no way yet to prove it either way 21:30:41 jilffdgjkljfld;jgksdfhg;'sdlk;dfjljk 21:31:02 ahem 21:31:14 oerjan: i was thinking about applying brute-force to the problem of shortening some of the brainfuck constants. 21:31:17 since they're hand-written, right? 21:31:48 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:32:51 the shortest programs there already establish an upper-bound on length, two of the instructions are irrelevant, and things like [] can be pruned outright, so it seems like it would be possible to constrain things enough that random generation of programs is productive 21:32:58 -!- Ngevd has joined. 21:33:50 might be short enough to allow exhaustive search 21:33:54 elliott: ok the page saved fine 21:34:10 and when you have some programs, you get some solutions for the larger constants for free 21:34:21 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:34:24 olsner: definitely not short enough 21:34:32 some of the programs are 17 chars long 21:34:49 6^17 = a few fucktons; OK, you can disregard anything with unbalanced loops, anything with ][, [] 21:34:59 but I'm sceptical you'd be able to get it down to brute-forcing range 21:35:11 *exhaustive brute-forcing 21:35:11 i thought i read the wrapping versions _had_ been exhaustively searched 21:35:17 hm 21:35:20 a cite for that would be nice :P 21:35:56 6^17 is only like 2^44 21:36:02 i mean they _look_ pretty optimal 21:36:04 olsner: oh is it? 21:36:13 i'm not any good at intuitive sizes of powers :( 21:36:33 neither am I, so I looked it up 21:36:37 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:36:48 elliott: it was probably mentioned on the talk page 21:37:10 Ahahaha, the neutrino results were apparently because of a misconnected cable. 21:37:15 looks like Calamari is the one to ask 21:37:22 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:37:27 Phantom___Hoover: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 21:38:12 oerjan: nothing on the talk page 21:38:15 Phantom___Hoover: seriously? 21:38:33 oerjan: oh well "I can generate the non-wrapping versions with my program so you don't have to do them by hand." doesn't imply brute-force to me 21:38:41 oerjan: most of the non-wrapping ones follow an obvious pattern, iirc 21:38:45 probably some multiplication + addition 21:39:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:39:23 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 21:39:47 Well, there are reports of an optical cable in the clock connection being loosly-connected to something else, which would cause the 60ns lead, but I'm not sure whether it was actually in the setup they used or if it's a plausible reason. 21:40:03 Looks like it was the setup they used. 21:40:07 oerjan: anyway I suppose it's only worth bothering if I can think of a decent algorithm to generate a random BF program that omits all those "silly" things 21:40:13 without restricting the program structure beyond that 21:40:21 elliott: well i generated some of them with a haskell program 21:40:43 i doubt haskell would be fast enough for brute-forcing these :) 21:40:55 elliott: no i mean, some of the non-wrapping ones 21:40:59 ah, right 21:41:30 in fact i made an improvement but never included the results from that 21:42:01 hmm, I suppose something like bifro could work for generating them, but would probably be very inefficient 21:42:12 what's the longest wrapping constant on there? 21:42:35 i don't recall 21:42:44 looks like 18 21:42:47 -!- monqy has joined. 21:42:55 olsner: what's 6^18 21:43:07 elliott: more than 3 21:43:24 1.01559957 × 10^14 21:43:36 > logBase 2 (6**18) 21:43:37 46.52932501298081 21:43:51 2^46 is a lot 21:44:12 2230 years if it takes a ms to evaluate a given program and there's no delay in-between 21:44:44 ofc restricting to valid, "non-stupid" BF programs should cut down the space massively 21:44:55 but it needs to be done "inherently" rather than filtering after-the-fact or there'll be no gain 21:45:19 Phantom___Hoover: "At the AAAS meeting's discussion, CERN's director of research, Sergio Bertolucci, placed his bet on what the results would be: "I have difficulty to believe it, because nothing in Italy arrives ahead of time."" 21:45:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:46:12 well no consecutive +- or >< for a start 21:46:48 right 21:46:51 and no [], no ][ 21:47:08 basically we need a state machine that only produces non-stupid BF programs :P 21:47:17 which means it's at most 5^18, really 21:47:22 > 5^18 21:47:23 3814697265625 21:47:23 (i.e. + goes to a state without - as an option) 21:47:32 > 5^18 - 2^32 21:47:32 3810402298329 21:47:38 looks workable 21:47:50 but again, the problem is writing a generator for this 21:47:55 oh and really 17... you don't want the solutions that are just as long as the old ones 21:47:58 > 5^17 21:47:59 762939453125 21:48:03 well right 21:48:17 > 2^39 21:48:17 549755813888 21:49:07 elliott: StateT Int [] is what i used in the haskell program, something similar should be appropriate here too 21:49:57 what's the int for 21:50:10 length of what i got so far 21:50:14 ah 21:50:22 I think all we need is a grammar for non-stupid BF programs 21:50:28 which would then be trivial to turn into an efficient random generator 21:52:22 well you cannot start with a loop 21:52:28 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2010/01/28/generating-random-sentences-from-a-context-free-grammar/ 21:53:21 -!- derdon has joined. 21:54:08 this is what i came up with the other day.. (possibly on topic) .. i quickly gave up my line of thought.. http://pastie.org/3435222 21:54:31 starting with anything else than at least one + is probably pointless 21:54:59 well there is the question of what cell you start or end in 21:56:25 olsner: erm what about a - 21:56:38 that's the shortest way to get 255, for example 21:56:48 oh, are we assuming wrapping? 21:56:56 for this exercise, yes, since the programs are shorter 21:57:00 and a > appears at the start of many of the wrapping programs 21:57:05 +-> seems like a reasonable start set 21:57:11 namely, the only reasonable one 21:58:09 alright, then - is not pointless... but is > not pointless? 21:58:26 for keeping the first cell at 0? 21:58:30 no, because you can use it as scratch space later 21:58:34 left-finite tape 22:00:13 oerjan: anyway it doesn't sound that hard to come up with a reasonable grammar, I think 22:01:15 +>++<+ is also sort of unnecessary 22:01:39 oerjan: ooh how long until we get to a^nb^nc^n 22:02:32 hm i think having anything other than those disallowed pairings and matching []'s may be overkill? 22:02:51 (also not starting in [) 22:04:12 well 22:04:14 P0 = '+' P1Add | '-' P1Sub | '>' P1Fwd 22:04:14 P1Add = '+' ... | '>' ... | '[' ... ']' 22:04:14 P1Sub = '-' ... | '>' ... | '[' ... ']' 22:04:14 P1Fwd = '+' ... | '-' ... | '>' ... 22:04:16 is an obvious start 22:06:02 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:07:57 is it clear that we can assume loops are balanced? 22:09:40 oerjan: hm well 22:10:06 oerjan: it sounds like the kind of thing that is reasonable to assume in hand-written programs, but there might be some really bizarre programs that take advantage of not using balanced loops 22:10:18 the kinds of things a human would never write :P 22:10:19 i dunno, though 22:10:24 presumably we want to set a limit on the number of cells used 22:10:46 do unbalanced loops even work? 22:11:11 olsner: work howso 22:11:16 I mean, can you do something useful with them? 22:12:31 olsner: well the point of applying brute force to the problem is to remove human preconceptions :P 22:12:46 alright, go ahead then :) 22:14:07 for once i almost understand the topic 22:15:35 oerjan: hm all the generated constants use 2 cells or less, right? 22:17:13 for wrapping, i think so. 22:17:42 oerjan: that makes testing the candidates really easy, then 22:17:46 as far as memory/cpu requirements go 22:17:50 heh 22:18:14 especially memory, you'll only need like 19 bytes 22:18:26 it also makes unbalanced loops _very_ unlikely to help, iirc my 3-cell bf musings. 22:19:02 oerjan: right. but i'm not sure how much you gain from leaving them out, really 22:19:18 ultimately this topic leads into protein folding i think.. first by considering distributed processing.. then considering benefit to humanity.. and existant projects trying to find things via brute force 22:19:39 oerjan: a benefit of restricting to balanced loops would be that an AST could be built as the program is generated 22:19:51 as in, like the fancy interpreters that store balanced loops as a few integers 22:20:00 those could be generated directly, skipping the parsing stage 22:20:43 you'll need to unparse to compare the length though 22:21:04 olsner: well the idea is that you'd track that in the generator itself... 22:25:41 oerjan: btw i was just curious as to whether you were planning to write a Truth-machine in itflabtijtslwi from what you said; if not I might have a go at it 22:25:56 a thought occurs to me of a neural network which has been trained by a large set of useful real world bf programs 22:27:32 and more potently if you were to feed such a neural network all the source code on the internet in a given language 22:29:47 which would collect all of humanitys ignorance .. i uhh... yeah disregard 22:31:56 i vote itidus22 "least likely to accidentally create an evil humanity-destroying ai" on the channel. 22:32:11 wait, scratch "accidentally" 22:32:40 oerjan: ok i'll take that as a no then 22:34:27 oerjan: HI 22:34:57 well afaik there are just two people who have written looping /// / itflabtijtslwi programs so far, so more are needed. 22:35:13 (Nthern being the other one.) 22:35:16 if I write one, will you golf it? :P 22:35:44 hm what's the file extension for itflabtijtslwi 22:35:48 .itflabtijtslwi? .gg? 22:36:00 you know me, i'm likely to format it with better indentation. 22:36:11 .itf is what i've used, i think 22:37:36 oerjan: hm i am not sure it is possible at all 22:37:45 what? 22:37:45 because you have to replace 1 with... wait, no 22:37:49 i forgot you could use delimiters 22:37:58 yep. 22:38:13 otherwise the rot13 program wouldn't have worked either... 22:38:15 GGIGG/<0>/0//<1>/111111.../ 22:38:17 todo: ... :P 22:38:37 so now the problem is reduced to "write a slashes program that prints 1 forever". ok, that sounds doable 22:38:48 heh 22:39:00 oerjan: what :P 22:39:18 nothing, nothing 22:39:33 oerjan: i was just trying to delude myself :( 22:39:36 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 22:39:39 i'm not going to have to generate this, am I? :P 22:39:46 golfing: remove the >'s 22:40:48 elliott: just use a main loop template and replace the innards? 22:40:56 i don't even know what the main loop templates are 22:40:59 and finding out would be cheating 22:41:06 oh. 22:41:36 i have never written a (non-extremely-trivial) /// program before. 22:42:15 well if you don't know the basic _principle_ i invented for making a nice main loop, then you might have some trouble. 22:42:35 i know it involves dequoting to replicate source 22:42:37 that's it 22:42:55 (///: succeeding where malbolge failed?) 22:43:01 heh 22:43:36 ok but this is literally just X -> 1X so I refuse to believe it's that difficult 22:43:39 lessee 22:44:09 ok, the first problem I run into is that I have no idea how to "copy" more than one character. 22:44:51 * oerjan metaphorically gets popcorn 22:44:54 he 22:44:55 h 22:44:59 my basic idea is 22:45:13 /X/1Y/ 22:45:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:45:26 /Y/X/ 22:45:29 X 22:45:45 is this on the right track, apart from the part where the <>s will require a complete restructuring? :P 22:46:28 GEE THANKS OERJAN 22:46:36 Just to remind you that Google has initiated a competition for Programmers and Engineers to work together to solve Atlanta's traffic problems. The first meeting is tomorrow when Google and someone from the Atlanta Regional Commission will explain the competition. If you are a serious programmer, this challenge is for you. 22:46:42 don't know if want? 22:47:06 kallisti: you'll probably be ironically caught in a traffic jam on the way 22:47:14 I'm almost positive I will. 22:47:46 it starts at 4:30 until 5:45 22:47:52 so probably stuck in traffic afterwards. 22:47:52 elliott: let's say that i don't recognize my own idea in that yet. 22:47:56 with some mild traffic before. 22:48:04 Atlanta has /horrible/ traffic. 22:48:12 oerjan: ok how about this (ignoring newlines) 22:48:21 /ME/quoted version of these three lines/ 22:48:23 /X/1Y/ 22:48:30 /Y/MEX/ 22:48:32 X 22:48:43 and presumably 22:48:46 http://savvyatlanta.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/intersec.jpg <-- look at this 22:48:49 I would store those three lines in the pre-quoted form 22:48:56 and unescape them at runtime to make them "active" 22:49:05 ...does that sound right? 22:49:14 that's what happens when three major interstate highways intersect on the perimeter of Atlanta. 22:49:35 why do they intersect in the one point? 22:49:45 well... 22:49:49 its like a large hadron collider :d 22:49:53 elliott: well yes, vaguely 22:50:16 75 cuts through the middle of Georgia going from Florida all the way up to (I think) Maine? 22:50:19 no, Michigan. 22:50:31 i'm not sure why you'd want to copy the 1 separately, though 22:50:50 oerjan: erm hm as opposed to what? 22:50:53 85 kind of goes diagonally through the Atlanta to the northeast 22:51:03 and the 285 surrounds the perimeter of Atlanta 22:51:09 so... I think they kind of have to intersect somewhere... 22:51:13 but I don't know the history. 22:51:16 elliott: just include it directly in the pre-quoted program 22:51:29 /ME/1quoted version of these two lines/ 22:51:36 *three 22:51:37 they should forget all the bridges and just put in a giant round-a-bout 22:51:37 /X/Y/ 22:51:40 /Y/MEX/ 22:51:40 X 22:51:41 ? 22:51:49 or oh hm 22:52:03 wait 22:52:05 elliott: yep, afa the 1 goes 22:52:08 /X/Y/ 22:52:08 /Y/MEX/ 22:52:12 this can't possibly work :( 22:52:28 oh wait, easy to repair 22:52:51 /ME/1quoted version//XX/Y//Y/MEX\X/XX 22:52:56 starting to look right? :P 22:53:22 http://www.terrain.org/articles/2/siegman.htm :-D 22:53:59 ok so the basic structure would be 22:54:01 /] 22:54:02 [//] 22:54:02 [/ME/1quoted/] 22:54:02 [/XX/Y/] 22:54:02 [/Y/MEX\X/] 22:54:03 [XX 22:54:07 oh wait 22:54:12 + whatever machinery is necessary to get the quoting going 22:54:12 spaghetti junction is 285 and 85 22:54:17 not three highways. 22:54:31 oh, hmm, they think they figured out the neutrino thing, apparently the cable they were using to calibrate the clocks against GPS was faulty 22:54:41 and they think that might be responsible for the apparently going too fast 22:54:54 lol 22:55:13 sort of embarassing for them 22:55:30 -shrug- it's a complicated experiment. 22:55:52 itidus22: it would have been embarrassing if they said "we think neutrinos are going ftl" 22:55:54 which they never did 22:56:05 oh 22:56:06 cool 22:57:00 it's also not really embarassing because they heavily downplayed it and immediately double-checked everything. 22:57:33 elliott: i think you are missing an important idea, which will become apparent once you try to flesh out the details. 22:57:51 oerjan: yes, i do too. 22:57:55 oerjan: why don't you tell me what the important idea is :P 22:57:59 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=atlanta+traffic+spaghetti+junction&hl=en&ll=33.892523,-84.257562&spn=0.009939,0.021136&sll=33.808535,-84.387016&sspn=0.159179,0.338173&gl=us&hq=traffic+spaghetti+junction&hnear=Atlanta,+Fulton,+Georgia&t=m&z=16 22:58:03 abstract art guys 22:58:18 now just a few jeff goldblum logical leaps from ftl to /// and it will all be resolved 22:58:23 for the xkcd traffic engineering prank comic 22:58:29 Randall should have just drew this. 22:59:31 kallisti: i still say round-a-bout :-> 22:59:40 yeah Americans are afraid of those. 22:59:42 they're dangerous! 22:59:43 elliott: you need to copy your quoted program to two different spots, and then handle those diffently to produce both the program to run directly and the next pre-quoted version 22:59:44 unlike, say 22:59:46 traffic signals. 23:00:04 where you literally drive through an intersection of two roads and hope everyone is paying attention 23:00:20 i don't drive.. can't really comment 23:00:32 (seriously they've conducted polls on opinions about roundabouts) 23:00:36 (you know. they) 23:00:44 oerjan: yes, and it is the "copying a block of text that I can't embed to two places" bit I can't figure out :( 23:02:10 kallisti: i think the trouble with a roundabout is you can't really arrive at it through engineering 23:02:17 @pin 23:02:17 pong 23:02:43 it's so heavily based on understanding how a group of humans will react to a roundabout in hindsight 23:02:54 elliott: erm what do you mean 23:03:14 traffic signals are like mutexes, whereas roundabouts are more like... wait what is a concurrency abstraction that fits a roundabout? 23:03:18 some kind of queue? 23:03:24 its like if you were to have an intersection generation grammar you could avoid human preconceptions about what is a good design 23:03:54 !slashes /X/Copying to two places in \\\/\\\/\\\/ is easy/X X 23:03:57 Copying to two places in /// is easy Copying to two places in /// is easy 23:04:26 oerjan: oh I see 23:04:49 its easy once someone else does the r & d 23:04:56 !slashes /X/backslash: \///X/y/X 23:04:57 y 23:05:25 oerjan: this is... incredibly difficult to reason about :P 23:05:30 kind of like building a 3ghz computer is easy provided you live in 2012 23:05:59 elliott: you don't say :D 23:06:45 is there not some magic trick for a constant infinite loop? :P 23:06:56 not that i know of. 23:07:06 unless you want one which only burns CPU 23:09:08 hmph 23:10:26 so it is interesting to see that tcness does not imply any magic tricks 23:14:27 -!- Phantom___Hoover has changed nick to ug. 23:15:09 -!- ug has changed nick to phantgarino. 23:15:45 Is this... concrete evidence that oerjan actually exists?! <-- obviously fake 23:16:13 YOU CONFIRMED IT 23:17:10 yeah but that was before i knew the universe was just a figment of my imagination. 23:17:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-kbMF1GF2A 23:17:57 oh my god 23:19:23 it's up to scotland to decide :D 23:19:52 Obviously, we have much experience with drinking. 23:23:39 itidus22: I thought it was just based on the idea of allowing traffic flow to contiue from all intersecting roadways without sudden build-ups (which is theoretically shown to reduce overall traffic flow). Also it has the benefit of allowing more than 2 roads to intersect. 23:24:15 also it reduces removes an entire category of traffic accidents. 23:24:32 lol reduces 23:25:07 intersection-related accidents are very frequent. 23:25:13 * oerjan swats ais523 for abbreviating the project which shall not be abbreviated -----### 23:25:36 oerjan: I didn't, I simply specified a name by which it wasn't referred to 23:25:48 pretty much everything said in the channel is a name that doesn't refer to that project 23:25:59 fancy 23:26:39 would you guys hate me if I started using Lisp-style ' to refer to words themselves rather than the concept being referred to by the word? 23:27:11 `words 50 23:27:18 verno pun ful cowl nifeenwe pie slitte tra swinm peirof woodp itn vestion woeda rate poli sat sii dendric dro kobe dispi ubsicifice habi launsell 23:27:19 Have you heard of quote marks? 23:27:57 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:28:00 elliott: yeah, but I'm not familiar with "heard" 23:28:19 what's wrong with 'vestion instead? 23:28:29 or 'woeda 23:28:42 actually "dendric" has shown up multiple times and I think is an actual word. 23:28:55 hm, well it's almost a word. 23:29:10 oh nevermind I guess it is. 23:29:35 Google suggested "dendritic" but looking up dendric also has people using it. 23:30:03 Daedric? 23:30:07 *'dendritic 23:30:10 elliott: GTFO 23:30:33 PERTAINING TO DENDRITES, DUH. 23:30:35 DUUUUUUHHHHH 23:30:40 kallisti, yes, we get it, you don't like Skyrim. 23:30:44 Please shut up about it,. 23:30:55 ? 23:31:07 sorry I won't reply to things brought up by other people. 23:31:25 Holy crap de Bruijn died today. 23:31:31 What 23:31:40 Erm, *on the 17tyh 23:31:43 *17th 23:31:46 :( 23:31:48 That's awful 23:32:29 -!- elliott has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 23:32:31 There's a Thribbian eulogy in here somewhere but I can't quite get it. 23:32:53 At least he was 93. That's pretty darn old. 23:33:25 I hope Grigori Perelman comes back one day and is like "I proved P=NP guys. I'm going to disappear again because I hate the mathematics community." 23:33:56 Maybe something with de Bruijn indices and 93 or something? 23:34:06 kallisti: I don't think Grigori Perelman is a hermit. 23:34:23 well he didn't literally disappear from society. 23:34:29 "He had previously turned down a prestigious prize from the European Mathematical Society,[26] allegedly saying that he felt the prize committee was unqualified to assess his work, even positively.[27]" 23:34:44 phantgarino: Give me a good reason not to take Perelman as my hero??? 23:35:06 but he declared that he wasn't going to be "practicing math" or something to that effect. 23:35:07 I don't like him; I think it's my general dislike of geniuses. 23:35:09 even though I think he still is... 23:35:38 kallisti: It seems he quit professional mathematics but is still working on things privately. 23:35:44 "Quitting" is a bit of a nebulous concept in that context. 23:36:02 right 23:36:10 I mean, Grothendieck has been rather more thorough about it. 23:36:23 he quit being part of the mathematics community, essentially. 23:37:22 I wonder what it's like to cease practicing mathematics. 23:37:27 must be crippling. 23:37:33 can't even buy groceries. 23:37:48 as that would involve computing sums. 23:39:08 I guess there's a difference between "practicing mathematics" and "performing computations" 23:41:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:23 thats a religious matter 23:47:30 ho ho ho 23:48:06 -!- phantgarino has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:48:24 ho 23:48:58 it is like... the theist (presumably) believes that the athiest is simply unaware of god 23:49:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:50:45 do i wanna do this? .. more likely the theist is compelled to correct the athiest for his blasphemy at not talking about god more often 23:51:36 -!- Lymia has joined. 23:51:36 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 23:51:36 -!- Lymia has joined. 23:51:43 could you explain the analogy 23:51:44 idgi 23:52:00 ignoring that, the mathematician may see people calculating things and consider that they are doing math and just not aware of it 23:52:01 i can answer that one 23:52:02 no, he can't 23:52:34 -!- augur has joined. 23:52:59 that's the opposite of what i feel 23:53:14 i feel that they are aware that they are doing math even though they aren't 23:54:04 theres a possible conflict when two systems of categorization of everything are in play 23:54:30 ;'dldg'guld][tgklogpfh;et4'w 23:55:25 well i agree but i don't see your point 23:55:45 that was to itidus22, elliott's point is clear :D 23:55:49 like if i said, your god was merely the servant of my god 23:56:47 then you'd be wrong because my god is better 23:57:15 yup 23:58:31 math would make an awesome religion 23:59:26 ok uh.. reformulating... it is possible to perform computations without understanding them 23:59:58 and practicing mathematics seems to be one way of understanding computations among other things