00:02:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:03:26 my internal conceptions at play are really quite a mess 00:03:42 you don't say 00:17:50 elliott: i first started thinking about random generation of useful things with graphics. i quickly realized the problem though when i found out that in an 8x8 grid that 2^64 possible graphics were possible 00:18:04 -!- cheater has joined. 00:18:46 assuming you only care about b&w 00:19:03 next i suppose one removes the symmetries. i don't understand this process very well though. but i did manage it for the first 3 moves of tic tac toe. 00:20:01 one could consider tile-space in graphics.. and therefore remove all toroidal symmetries 00:20:41 tile-space is a bad neologism.. but imagining the 8x8 grid existing as a repeated tile 00:21:16 The eff, Adobe. 00:21:22 No more Flash on Linux for not-Chrome. 00:21:34 ... wut? 00:21:37 FSVO all of that. 00:22:05 Gregor: They're deprecating the NSAPI plugin entirely in favor of the Pepper API. 00:22:14 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:15 Google Chrome is the only browser that implements that on any OS. 00:22:17 They're only distributing the Pepper-based version, and they say they're only distributing it as a bundle with Chrome, but that'll end up amounting to a Pepper<->NSAPI bridge being created and a script to extract Flash from the Chrome distribution. 00:22:36 -!- itidus22 has quit (*.net *.split). 00:22:36 -!- Tiktalik has quit (*.net *.split). 00:22:37 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split). 00:22:37 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 00:22:40 The bridge should be trivial enough if they only care about Flash, since obviously they'll have just ported from NSAPI to Pepper. 00:22:56 Also, all that only applies to Linux still. 00:23:02 " next i suppose one removes the symmetries. i don't understand this process very well though. but i did manage it for the first 3 moves of tic tac toe." see group theory 00:23:16 That's ... a weird move. I don't think Google is even particularly interested in trying to take Firefox's lead in Linux ... 00:23:25 (If it still has a lead) 00:23:26 elliott: It requires NaCl. 00:23:49 pikhq: Which is open source. 00:23:58 Buhwhu? People use native client??? 00:24:14 Gregor: It's Google, of course they use $GOOGLE_THING. 00:24:43 Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... 00:25:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:25:19 Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... 00:25:24 It'd be hardly any effort to just continue supporting it. 00:25:26 Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... 00:25:52 Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... 00:26:11 Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... 00:26:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 00:26:27 Yes, my connection drops like crazy. 00:28:20 -!- itidus21 has joined. 00:28:21 -!- Tiktalik has joined. 00:28:21 -!- yorick has joined. 00:28:21 -!- aloril has joined. 00:28:21 -!- ?unknown? has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 00:28:40 thanks adams 00:28:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:29:26 eheheh 00:30:36 thats for all those bad references to hitchhikers 00:32:26 thadams 00:32:29 anyway i feel rather clever to figure out filtering toroidal symmetry for tile-graphics generation. 00:34:03 even i can think up such things given enough time doing absolutely nothing at home 00:35:22 its not important i know, just a quiet window to do my ranting 00:35:53 seriously group theory has some awesome symmetry stuff 00:36:35 when i worked out the first 3 moves for tic tac toe.. and i looked it up i was quite amazed i got it all right. 00:36:38 i'll also link here in case other's haven't had the pleasure to read this http://www.math.hkbu.edu.hk/~ttang/newspaper/funnyarticle11.pdf 00:36:43 *others 00:36:44 adkjf 00:37:27 * oerjan wonders who edited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language 00:37:54 It maybe wasn't not me. 00:38:11 I KNOW YOUR IP *MWAHAHAHA* 00:38:19 ha 00:38:20 ha 00:38:20 ha 00:38:22 i guess that's mutual. 00:38:24 what did he doop? 00:38:26 oerjan: you like redivider right 00:38:48 um i don't recall what it was like 00:38:58 it's the parser combinator tarpit 00:39:07 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter 00:39:12 and most relevantly http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Redivider 00:39:34 oh and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider#Examples 00:40:05 itidus21: if you want something to do with your brain, you could prove that simplicial complexes occupy the same homotopy equivalence classes as sofic shifts in the weyl topology 00:40:14 i thought i had this but it was too hard 00:40:48 we have the simpler besicovitch case as of yesterday (although i've thought i had it about once a month since september) 00:41:38 oerjan: it's really nice because everything is a parser 00:41:42 even string literals are parsers 00:41:55 don't you mean it's really GAY because everything is parser 00:41:56 it's just all higher-order parsers built up from a few operators 00:42:05 higher-order GAY you mean? 00:42:07 hahaha 00:42:20 also i can't find the ~5-line ski in it that was really nice :( 00:42:27 oklopol: when looking at the 512 tiles that a NES game holds in it's memory at a given moment it got me thinking about the tiles.. so it has a pallete of 2^9 tiles out of a possible 2^64 tiles 00:42:53 so itidus21 and oerjan have the same color 00:43:01 i had the most absurd experience just now. 00:43:15 :D 00:43:32 Gay still means happy. 00:43:34 (my irc client colors people. i know it's racist but at least no one's black.) 00:44:02 My terminal’s background color is African-American. 00:44:11 mine too 00:44:16 [polite form] 00:44:44 my background is pitch nigger 00:45:06 so you saw my text in oerjan's color and the whole experience didn't make any sense 00:45:16 itidus21: i thought oerjan said your line 00:45:20 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:45:28 oerjan does not say something like that out of the blue. 00:45:34 yes.. thats quite absurd! 00:45:40 he is very careful about mentioning numbers to me. 00:45:46 or TILES 00:45:54 I'M A FUCKING TILOPHILE 00:45:57 MMMMM TILES 00:46:38 anyway i need to sleep so goo night ^^ 00:46:50 given that the NES can do vertical and horziontal flipping of tiles it does cut down the set from 2^64 slightly.. but i have no interest in calculating or asking anyone else to calculate how much 00:47:57 actually.. nes tiles are 2 bits which probably means 2^128 00:48:19 probably. 00:48:22 nightynight 00:48:28 sorry go 01:10:35 -!- cheater_ has joined. 01:11:21 mm, Glass 01:12:01 mm, Ass 01:13:58 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:18:24 mm, SS 01:19:12 Gregor: it's glass with recycling! 01:20:30 {M[m(_x)0I!0c.?1O!1o.11?22"1"5S!5e.?=/(_x)11?\]} to be precise 01:22:07 * Gregor nods sagely, as if he can actually interpret his own language. 01:25:37 by recycling i mean that i'm using just the one (_x) local name 01:26:40 i'm sure this makes it all that much more readable. 01:35:00 ...I can't read that. 01:35:04 it doesn't look like normal Glass. 01:35:07 but 01:35:11 maybe I've forgotten some things. 01:35:26 *MWAHAHAHA* 01:35:49 i wrote it more normally first, then figured i could shorten it by using (_x) for everything 01:36:06 the (_x) is what's throwing me off... 01:36:35 i'm basically using it as the variable name for _all_ the objects used, one after the other 01:37:11 :( 01:37:25 all of that stack utilization 01:37:28 must be why I can't read it. 01:37:35 Heheheh 01:38:01 Glass is my favorite OO stack language. 01:38:03 Now why did I ever give you local variables X-P 01:38:18 because (_o)O! is tasty 01:38:22 Faaaaairly certain that Glass is the /only/ OO stack language ... 01:39:33 hm, are you certain of that? 01:43:49 Only fairly. 01:50:10 hmmm... what about.... 01:50:15 oh wait Parrot is a register machine. 01:50:33 I wouldn't be surprised if "stack based OO language" described a lot of virtual machine languages. 01:50:40 Oh, that's true. 01:50:48 JVM fits the bill. 01:51:06 you should make Glass the VM for Plof. :> 01:51:20 with some... slight modifications 01:51:22 Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahno. 01:53:39 how does one go about translating a high level language to a stack language. 01:54:10 translating to a register machine seems a bit more natural to me, due to the similarity to machine code. 01:56:47 You flatten the AST. 01:56:48 That's it. 01:58:16 Gregor++ 02:03:05 oh nevermind 02:03:21 I was overcomplicating it. 02:03:28 in my brainplaces. 02:07:30 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:07:52 -!- Frooxius has joined. 02:26:46 !glass {M[m(_v)V!(_v)n.?(_o)O!(_o)o.?]} 02:26:47 Anonymous1 02:45:43 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:56:21 -!- zbrown_ has changed nick to zbrown. 02:56:26 -!- zbrown has quit (Changing host). 02:56:26 -!- zbrown has joined. 03:01:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:04:42 Oh butt, I've forgotten how beautiful Glass is. 03:04:58 (Yes, this is my new expletive. I butt to use it at least once in every message.) 03:05:59 Okay, you're defining a new class called M, with one function, called m, which does... that. 03:06:55 Global variables are like THIS, class- or object-local variables like this, and stack variables like _this... 03:08:17 So we push the name _v, then push the name V, then... okay, (_v)V! pretty much means "create a V named _v". 03:09:22 Then (_v)n.? calls its n function, creating a new name and pushing it onto the stack... 03:09:51 Then we create an O called o_ and call its o function to output the name of the variable. 03:13:49 Okay, there is one feature that Glass MUST HAVE. 03:14:15 A class that you can use to push the current continuation onto the stack. 03:15:34 So, uh... next time I write a Glass implementation, it's going to have that. 03:16:13 -!- itidus21 has joined. 03:16:23 Y'know. I just might implement Glass in Lua. The implementation will work by compiling the Glass program into Lua code and evaluating it. 03:17:38 -!- PiRSquared has joined. 03:17:49 There, rewrote http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 03:22:11 Its name is... the letter L in a math-calligraphic style? 03:22:32 How come ℒ is in Unicode but a plain old italic L isn't? 03:23:07 It's Fancy L. 03:23:17 Fancy L is just ... Fancy L. 03:26:50 I also set up a redirect from the page "Fancy L" (and "Fancy-L") so I wouldn't have to figure out how to type it. 03:27:17 Have you set up a redirect from the page "SCRIPT CAPITAL L"? 03:27:47 Nobody calls it that, it's Fancy L :) 03:32:31 -!- Lymee has joined. 03:32:31 -!- Lymee has quit (Changing host). 03:32:32 -!- Lymee has joined. 03:33:41 And a redirect from the page "$\mathcal{L}$"? 03:33:46 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:41:16 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Madoka-Kaname. 03:52:13 ahh NOW i get why it's called fancy L 03:52:39 thats absurdly literal interpretation of fancy L 04:21:21 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:21:39 contemplates a pc case move 04:28:23 -!- itidus21 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:33:57 -!- aloril has joined. 05:13:55 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:26:18 -!- aloril has joined. 05:31:41 -!- itidus21 has joined. 05:32:19 successful pc case move 05:38:18 congratulations 05:38:30 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to PiRSleep17. 05:46:53 the real purpose is that i thought to myself.. what is the number 1 reason i don't do much reading 05:47:07 and i thought, honestly there is very little empty desk space in my room 05:48:17 i have these weird projects going in my room like collecting local newspapers 05:50:18 i had my pc up on a desk for easy access to the back but it seemed not worth it in long run.. space better used as an actual desk 06:20:26 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:33:55 -!- aloril has joined. 08:21:32 -!- ais523_ has joined. 08:21:59 wow, this RNG actually uses string processing 08:26:10 Maybe it has been written by a TCL guy? Everything's a string, and all that. 08:28:03 Also is it a PRNG instead of a RNG? (This message sponsored by the "Exactness in Expression 2012" campaign.) 08:32:34 No, this RNG makes numbers exist.. it doesn't select them as such. 08:33:14 fizzie: Tclers don't generally do that *outside* of Tcl. 08:33:30 Because holy *crap* it's hard to do Tclish tricks with strings outside of Tcl. :) 08:34:19 i mean where do you think the integers came from? 08:34:25 :-j 08:34:34 Perhaps a "hard-core Tcler", then. I'm sure there are some. Tattooed all over with Tcl code and so on. 08:36:04 so hardcore they illegally change their name to some tcl code 08:37:00 ais523_: which RNG? 08:37:16 olsner: it's a middle-square RNG, working in decimal 08:37:24 and it's in one of NVidia's CUDA examples 08:37:32 and yes, PRNG 08:38:06 not only string processing ... but on a GPU? 08:38:16 it's in the CPU portion of the code 08:38:21 thankfully, for sanity 08:38:37 CUDA doesn't have a string type, or any type vaguely corresponding to it 08:38:52 about the closest you could get would be int[N] for some constant N 08:56:56 -!- Ngevd has joined. 08:57:18 Hello! 09:01:27 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:01:55 also, how am I meant to search for the fields in a data type called cData? 09:02:11 I keep getting results for CDATA instead 09:02:35 Apparently Finland's (ex- or soon-to-be-ex-)presiden't husband looking as if he'd be staring at the bosom of Denmark's crown princess qualifies as "international news"; the headlines here (there's a stand at the lunch-place) have now dutifully reported that UK's The Sun and some "Jay Leno" dude have now laughed at him. 09:06:14 s/typos/corrections/ 09:07:02 Meh, the Sun report anything. 09:08:05 Have I Got News For You were laughing at it too 09:15:34 I've made a different Thue Truth-machine 09:15:48 It's one character shorter, but can use more memory 09:16:32 n::=::: 09:16:39 0::=~0 09:16:44 1::=a1 09:16:48 a::=~1 09:16:50 ::= 09:16:51 n 09:17:34 Strictly speaking, it may never output 1 at all 09:19:01 Actually, I prefer the one that I didn't write 09:19:15 why does OpenGL use char* for ptrdiff_t? 09:19:16 Also, DMM hasn't replied to my email 09:19:23 that's bizarre, it should just use ptrdiff_t 09:19:33 or an equivalent, like int 09:22:47 -!- Zuu has joined. 09:40:28 DMM replied! 09:40:29 :) 09:42:00 Added his version of the Whenever Truth-machine 09:58:25 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 10:06:26 Ngevd, kallisti has been updated. 10:06:48 Oh cool 10:11:48 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb. 10:19:49 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:20:39 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:31:15 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:36:32 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:37:50 -!- cheater_ has joined. 11:01:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:24:22 security update in CVS? what? 11:24:32 I'd assume that'd be stable by now… 11:24:36 ...CVS? 11:34:08 indeed 11:34:24 it's installed here, which is reasonable, as I guess it's a dependency of something, and I might even have had to download CVS repos on occasoin 11:34:26 *occasion 11:48:36 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:03:15 ais523: Can you delete "Facny L" for me kthx >_> 12:04:04 Also, do we need a category for "fancy-L-equivalent"? To categorize e.g. Befunge/index.php and HQ9+B 12:08:38 -!- cheater_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 12:09:25 -!- cheater_ has joined. 12:25:15 Newsflash: Russia wins the race to Singularity. (Source: Usenet.) 12:26:50 "This usage of a default BeVerb in Russian AI is a new technique in the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar and may not only constitute unpatentable _prior art_ in AI but may also contribute to a Technological Singularity if Russia repeats her spectacular success of first place in the sweepstakes of exploring the Dark Side of the Moon. It will be "GAME OVER", if the creative minds of Russia create the expanded Mind of Dushka." 12:29:21 (For the full story, see http://sprunge.us/ZHNX) 12:30:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:38:15 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 12:46:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:47:12 Friendship: done 12:51:44 also, I would be working on this OpenGL program I have to get done tomorrow, except that OpenGL has inexplicably stopped working in the computer labs 12:51:44 or at least, I assume it's responsible, the sample programs I ran to check work if and only if they don't use it 12:55:39 -!- MoALTz has joined. 13:01:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:20:06 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:40:57 hmm… I once invented a custom version of base64 that used ' and " as the non-alphanumeric characters 13:41:19 because they had the same wrapping properties as letters and digits, meaning that they filled text boxes neatly 13:42:05 -!- PiRSleep17 has changed nick to PiRSquared. 14:05:07 There are quite a few of variants that only differ w.r.t. the two odd ones. 14:06:52 RFC 4648 has the "URL and Filename Safe" version with -_ instead of +/. 14:13:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:13:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:14:06 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:16:52 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:23:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:24:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:03:07 Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :) 15:03:11 Surely somebody's already done that though? 15:22:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:23:52 Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :) 15:23:52 Surely somebody's already done that though? 15:26:28 (Copypasta'd for ais523's input) 15:30:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:33:51 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 15:36:04 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:40:51 -!- derdon has joined. 15:55:42 Gregor: hmm, PDA-with-halting-oracle seems less interesting than PDA-with-Turing-oracle 15:55:48 although I'm not entirely sure what a Turing oracle would do 15:57:08 I think that for any reasonable definition of "Turing oracle", a halting oracle would be equivalent. 15:57:30 no, I mean an oracle that does something that Turing machines can do but PDAs can't 15:57:31 Since you can always inject a "if (state I care about) halt else loop infinitely" 15:57:37 -!- cswords has joined. 15:57:37 like, an a^nb^nc^n oracle 15:58:20 Naw, then that's just one squiggle outside of PDA. That seems much less interesting to me. 15:59:02 You've got to leapfrog a computational class for it to be interesting to me apparently >_> <_< 16:00:20 -!- cswords_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:01:56 heh 16:02:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:55 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 16:32:08 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:36:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:39:18 -!- augur has joined. 16:45:32 -!- Tiktalik has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:49:01 -!- tikfreenode has joined. 16:51:28 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 16:53:59 Upon further consideration, what I actually like about my idea is the consideration of whether that would be TC. 16:54:20 Aaaaaand ais is gone again ... 16:58:25 Right, so, if we had Turing-complete language a (say, Lazy K), and push-down automata b (say, Befunge-93) we can create language Γ_(a,b), which is b with the addition of command "£", which takes a string and returns whether it halts when ran as an a program 16:59:20 Is Γ(a,b) Turing complete? 16:59:27 Yuh 16:59:32 That's the question. 17:00:15 Also, isn't Befunge-93 not even a PDA since it has the fancy L problem even for that? Not all PDAs can be translated into PDAs of a certain fixed size ... 17:00:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:01:08 Any language with fixed dimensions could be at best the fancy L equivalent of some interesting computational class. 17:01:48 Less-than-N-bytes-of-C is fancy-L(Turing machine), and Befunge-93-in-original-dimensional-limits is fancy-L(PDA) 17:01:53 Γ here is short for Γρηγωρ 17:02:02 Naturally. 17:02:25 Which is a transliteration of "Gregor" 17:02:48 (I shouldn't have used 'C' in the above example, let's say less-than-N-bytes-of-Perl, since Perl is so popular to golf) 17:02:53 Taneb: Naturally. 17:03:08 Which is presumably your name. 17:03:23 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship. 17:03:28 Nope, my real name is Friendship. 17:03:29 And I am magic. 17:04:14 Φριενδσιπ 17:04:30 Φριενδσιπ μωυς 17:05:04 (or maybe μοως?) 17:05:24 I had a dream in which Weird Al Yankovic, having secretly been publishing theoretical computing research for years under a pseudonym, was receiving the Turing award, and his speech consisted of a video of a cartoon version of him doing strange things then transforming intermittently into a cartoon rabbit with horn-rimmed glasses describing actual (computer) science. 17:05:54 Mister mouse, you have weird dreams 17:06:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:16:08 -!- Friendship has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | Dennis Ritchie 1941-2011 | John McCarthy 1927-2011 | John Backus 1924-2007 | Kristen Nygaard 1926-2002 | Edsger Dijkstra 1930-2002 | John Cocke 1925-2002 | Ole-Johan Dahl 1931-2002 | Alonzo Church 1903-1995 | Alan Perlis 1922-1990 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!. 17:19:16 I never noticed that 2002 was a friggin' terrible year for CS. 17:19:19 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:20:07 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:22:44 -!- graue has joined. 17:23:15 Oh great, so now that graue has given wiki management to elliott, he'll start being a regular on the channel and elliott'll never show up again. 17:35:59 heh 17:36:06 admittedly, elliott had left some time before then 17:36:16 and only came back to coordinate the wiki move 17:36:26 (which has somehow made the channel much more on-topic than it used to be) 17:36:40 As well as the wiki 17:36:56 the wiki's always been on-topic, unless you count spambots 17:37:00 but it's got a lot more legitimately active 17:38:01 SPEAKING OF 17:38:23 Befunge-93 claims to be a PDA. I dispute this due to its size limitations. I say it's fancy-L(PDA), whatever that means. 17:41:05 It has an unbounded stack 17:44:35 So? You can't represent an arbitrary number of states in bounded program space. 17:46:20 It doesn't need an arbitrary number of states, you just need a number 17:47:05 According to our wiki, it's just a FSA with a stack 17:47:23 But it has to be able to represent /all/ PDA's to be equivalent. 17:47:31 No it doesn't 17:48:19 Oh, I misstated myself and misremembered the wiki >_< 17:48:22 "However, the converse is not true; there surely exist some push-down automata which cannot be simulated by any Befunge-93 program (because they contain more states than can be encoded in the 80x25 playfield)." 17:49:32 Oh well, I don't know what I'm talking about, ignore me X-D 17:49:46 Most of the time, you know more than me 17:50:13 I thought that the wiki had claimed that Befunge-93 was PDA-complete, so to speak. 17:50:14 But it doesn't. 17:50:20 So my whole tangent was pointless. 17:50:33 Doesn't it take a Turing machine to be PDA complete? 17:50:54 Uhh, no, a PDA is PDA-complete ... 17:51:09 As in, can interpret any PDA 17:51:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:51:27 I don't think that's what "-complete" means, it means that all PDA's can be described by it. 17:51:42 "can interpret" is just a cheap hack to get that, which itself works for TC most of the time. 17:51:46 A PDA can't describe a bigger PDA 17:51:58 Not "a given PDA", just the language "PDA" 17:52:07 The language of PDAs can describe all PDAs. 17:56:01 (But the language Befunge-93 cannot) 17:56:21 (I find this similar to how fancy-L languages can describe a particular Turing machine, but not all) 18:05:23 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: dinner). 18:11:46 wow, this new wiki is getting my reactions all wrong 18:11:56 I see a new edit, and instinctively go to delete it, and get confused 18:15:46 X-D 18:16:16 By the way, I'm inventing the terms (argh I can't type Unicode in this xchat) "fancy-L-equivalent machine", "fancy-L-hard" and "fancy-L-complete" 18:16:28 I feel like the existence of this page needs more press, in the form of categories. 18:20:19 Given that the computational class of ℒ is unclear, but there are languages which are plainly within its computational class, we can create a new (and intentionally ambiguous) computational class to describe it. ℒ-equivalent machines are those abstract machines for which the ability to describe all universal Turing machines is predicated upon the status of input or some other state which may be considered external to the machine proper. The set of ℒ-equ 18:20:19 ivalent machines is clearly a subset of [[Turing machines]], but whether it is a proper subset is a matter of philosophy. A language is said to be ℒ-hard if there exists a program in that language which is in ℒ, and ℒ-complete if it is ℒ-hard and not [[Turing-complete]]. 18:20:28 What the bork? 18:20:49 Oh, never mind, it pasted right, my client is just weird X_X 18:26:44 -!- elliott has joined. 18:27:04 @tell Gregor "ℒ was originally described to generalize the question raised by Befunge/index.php." not quite true 18:27:05 Consider it noted. 18:27:59 elliott: Oh, 'snot? 18:28:51 Oh, it's not indeed, he just brought it to the wiki for that. 18:29:07 `pastelogs ℒ 18:29:41 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8264 18:30:11 he didn't call it that originally 18:30:16 Hm, first reference to that name is somebody quoting cpressey as saying he'd --- ah X_X 18:30:24 So, nothing easy to grep on. 18:30:32 also that paste's unicode is broken 18:30:53 Blame ... grep? 18:31:45 no, your httpd probably isn't sending a proper content-type 18:31:51 you need to append ; encoding=UTF-8 :P 18:31:57 Probably *shrugs* 18:32:03 But I'd need to convince hgweb to do that. 18:32:05 So *blech* 18:42:00 09:19:15: why does OpenGL use char* for ptrdiff_t? 18:42:08 ais523: opengl predates c99, I'm pretty sure 18:42:16 elliott: but it's just a pure type error 18:42:23 it's using a pointer type where it should be using an integer type 18:42:28 if it was using int or long or something I wouldn't mind 18:42:53 ais523: those might not fit the result; (char *) will so long as pointers are integral 18:43:02 oh, that's ingenious 18:43:05 although, ridiculous 18:43:19 12:04:04: Also, do we need a category for "fancy-L-equivalent"? To categorize e.g. Befunge/index.php and HQ9+B 18:43:27 Friendship: No, there aren't many of them. 18:43:51 Fair enough. 18:45:32 I'm at least going to change the text of HQ9+B so it's not blatantly lying :) 18:46:15 15:03:07: Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :) 18:46:33 Friendship: Machine with only one instruction: check whether a given Underload program halts, print 0 if it doesn't, 1 ifit does. 18:46:37 Uncomputable, sub-TC. 18:46:40 Yawn. 18:46:45 (i.e. that's trivial) 18:47:18 But what's interesting about mine is that a PDA might (although I'm flying very quickly towards the conclusion that it is not) be sufficient to actually be TC with the addition of that transition statement. 18:47:43 15:57:37: like, an a^nb^nc^n oracle 18:47:43 15:58:20: Naw, then that's just one squiggle outside of PDA. That seems much less interesting to me. 18:47:53 in the same way that utm+halting oracle is one squiggle outside of tc 18:48:06 Friendship: right 18:48:35 Friendship: well a halting oracle for utms lets you decide a bunch of things 18:48:41 which may be enough to implement complex loops 18:49:05 oh, /obviously/ it's TC 18:49:07 e.g. you can turn a statement (exists n \in Z, p(n)) where p is decidable into (Maybe Z) 18:49:12 and you can easily wrap something in 18:49:15 just take your input, halting-oracle it, and go into an infinite loop if it doesn't halt 18:49:18 if (halts) { continue } else { loop forever } 18:49:33 ais523: Can-solve-the-halting-problem does not imply TC ... 18:49:36 elliott: heh, we both had the same idea at once 18:49:41 i had it lines ago 18:49:44 ais523: that doesn't help you produce output though or w/e 18:49:48 Friendship: halts-if-a-given-TM-halts is the definition of TC 18:49:53 oh 18:49:55 indeed 18:49:59 ... damn it. 18:50:00 you could ask about BF-completeness, though 18:50:15 with BF-completeness, you only need to be able to get "first char of output" "second char of output" etc. 18:50:18 which is e.g. you can turn a statement (exists n \in Z, p(n)) where p is decidable into (Maybe Z) 18:50:23 Right, because you can reduce all questions to halting questions, argh. 18:50:30 p(n) = n is first char of output of run_bf_program(prog,"") 18:50:38 input is a little harder I guess, but sounds perfectly doable 18:51:12 Friendship: Also, it's obviously not Turing-complete. 18:51:17 Because it can solve the halting problem. 18:51:27 It's Turing-hard, though. 18:51:30 Well, we're still a bit fuzzy on what TC actually means, bu--- yeah. 18:51:36 You can't be uncomputable + TC, as we've agreed on :P 18:51:54 Yeah, we agree, but I don't think the community at large agrees. 18:51:58 17:02:53: Taneb: Naturally. 18:51:58 17:03:08: Which is presumably your name. 18:51:58 17:03:28: Nope, my real name is Friendship. 18:51:58 17:03:29: And I am magic. 18:52:01 Friendship: Logs still broken. 18:52:05 Oh for 18:52:12 Also, the "community at large" is a bunch of idiots creating BF derivatives. 18:52:16 True. 18:52:35 * Friendship proceeds to put that quote on the front page, attributing you. 18:53:06 Noooo 18:53:11 My oppressive regime! Crushed! 18:59:12 "Are closures a violation of the functional programming paradigm?" 18:59:30 " [...] How is Haskell purely-functional if it supports closures? Don't they break referential transparency?" 18:59:37 >_> 19:00:01 sounds like someone is confusing implementation with semantics. >_> 19:00:07 WHAT AN UNTHINKABLE THING TO DO. 19:00:30 Yes. That would have you believing seq has side-effects. 19:00:52 indeed 19:01:38 I'm kind of at a loss as to how that breaks referential transparency 19:01:41 or how you could think it does. 19:01:44 actually. 19:03:26 I did just wake up however. 19:03:42 so I'm kind of at a loss to explain anything right now. 19:05:12 maybe they're confusing referential transparency with "can be used to simulate state" 19:06:03 Friendship: I wonder whether fancy-L is a [[Category:Languages]] or a [[Category:Concepts]]... 19:06:14 Probably concept. 19:06:46 Friendship: Also when you gonna make HQ9+B non-lying :P 19:07:10 Whoops, got lost and forgot X-D 19:07:41 Done. 19:08:35 Odd, when I run the exact same log handler over the exact same logs, it detects the nick changes properly ... 19:09:02 Sooo there's a bug in the current state of the running log handler but I don't know how to repro it >_< 19:10:04 * Friendship regens and hopes for the best. 19:10:09 hack the process bits no problem 19:11:58 OK, my brain is broke >_< 19:12:13 Regenerating it on the server still missed the nicks, doing the same thing on my local machine worked no problem. 19:12:25 it's not running IE8, is it? 19:13:21 -!- monqy has joined. 19:18:32 monqy: bye 19:18:54 hi 19:20:29 it was nice seeing you! 19:21:01 yes i'd imagine so 19:22:20 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 19:38:41 There, log bug fixed. 19:38:47 What was it? 19:39:41 It got its nick lists from the 353 command from the server, but didn't really understand what was going on if multiple 353s came for the same channel (that is, if the channel was bigger than could be fit in a single message) 19:40:03 Apparently it wasn't logging any big channels before X-D 19:41:05 Friendship: I'm sure that means #ai's logs have been broken forever :P 19:41:15 (That place is really terrible, you should stop logging it :P) 19:41:36 *eh* 19:42:17 18:14:17: Im so disappointed with my AI 19:42:17 18:24:35: :) 19:42:17 18:24:36: -!- pleiades has quit (K-Lined). 19:42:17 18:25:53: DanFrederiksen: I'll tell you about it if you want 19:42:17 18:35:03: that wont be necessary 19:42:17 18:36:23: you're an idiot and a troll 19:42:19 18:36:32: I'm putting you on /ignore from nowon 19:42:44 Friendship: On second thoughts, NEVER STOP 19:42:46 what 19:43:01 Wow. 19:43:21 18:44:03: tomodo: excellent choice 18:44:36: I don't like smug people 18:44:55: it's just a way to try to appear superior when you have nothing to show for yourself 18:45:31: you are the troll buddy 19:45:15 19:41:22: AIXI has unlimited computing power 19:45:16 19:41:35: it ignores parts of the environment that do not help it predict the future 19:45:16 19:41:56: causative You first must by mature in this conversation, and admit qas a mature adult that AIXI is framed in a reinforcement learnign context. 19:45:19 meh... (append (quote (1)) (quote (4 5 6))) => (4 5 6) 19:45:34 olsner: it's a very small 1 19:45:49 19:44:05: causative Just get over this and be a mature adult. You will never ever ever ever have an embodied agent in *this* universe that will pay attention to absolutely everything it sensors can point at. It can't happen. The agent would sit there counting bolts on the side of ship. 19:45:58 -!- glogbackup has left. 19:46:01 this is great, -> stop this immaturity already! 19:46:41 i'm not your buddy, guy 19:46:42 ok i gotta stop reading #ai logs now... 19:47:17 It's just like being on AOL :) 19:47:28 elliott: ##c: tomodo: do you even know what you are saying? or just trolling? MaybeJust: /ignore'd 19:47:48 who is this tomodo fellow 19:47:51 hmm, maybe I should start that rewrite into Prolog now, and translate it from Prolog after it works 19:47:58 elliott: ...lol wtf 19:48:02 I must go to #ai now 19:48:06 I don't know, but the nick and the "/ignore" so close to each other remindeded. 19:48:07 fizzie: Kind of reminds me of someone... 19:48:12 hm. 19:48:17 im stalkermoding #ai 19:48:17 I need to learn perl. 19:48:23 mRoman: damn right 19:48:25 fizzie: I hope it's not the person it reminds me of, though. 19:49:19 Can i set $/ to something that $a = ; only reads one character? 19:49:26 no. 19:49:28 Oh, they're in #haskell. I guess it might be. 19:49:36 Can I read one character only somehow? 19:49:43 who is this 19:49:51 mRoman: http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/getc.html? 19:49:55 monqy: tomodo 19:50:00 i mean 19:50:01 who is tomodo 19:50:01 oh wait... 19:50:10 let me test that I've never actually tried... 19:50:12 well i don't know. but they remind me of j-invariant/fax/etc. 19:50:26 i don't know any of those :'( 19:50:32 ISTR a classique #esoteric /topic mentioning that the joke language Perl is not on-topic here :) 19:50:41 huh, really? I guess they were before your time. (those are the same person) 19:51:06 mRoman: my intuition would lead me to believe that setting $/ to an empty string would make <> work like getc 19:51:10 but you should just use getc 19:51:36 and if you do set global variables 19:51:55 make sure you make it.. local. :P 19:52:27 {local $/ = ''; ...} 19:52:29 for example 19:53:12 yay, the first google webmaster tools data came in for esolangs.org! 19:53:25 that will reset $/ to be '' for the duration of the block. 19:53:33 and where is putc? 19:53:38 print 19:53:49 print $file_handle $string 19:54:01 oh wow 19:54:04 http://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=remorse 19:54:06 we're result #8 19:54:13 rofl 19:54:50 http://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=turing+complete 19:54:56 Friendship: How are we on the first page of results for turing complete. 19:55:08 Albeit below "BF is Turing-complete" :P 19:55:37 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik. 19:56:06 Friendship: Ooh, Wikipedia disagrees with us re: TC. 19:56:18 Friendship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness Per its definition, TwoDucks is TC but not TE. 19:56:35 [[ 19:56:35 Turing completeness 19:56:35 A computational system that can compute every Turing-computable function is called Turing complete (or Turing powerful). Alternatively, such a system is one that can simulate a universal Turing machine. 19:56:36 Turing equivalence 19:56:36 A Turing-complete system is called Turing equivalent if every function it can compute is also Turing computable; i.e., it computes precisely the same class of functions as do Turing machines. Alternatively, a Turing-equivalent system is one that can simulate, and be simulated by, a universal Turing machine. (All known Turing-complete systems are Turing equivalent, which adds support to the Church–Turing thesis.) 19:56:40 ]] 19:56:46 That parenthical is dumb. 19:56:55 But it echoes the definitions in the article's lead. 19:57:00 I love the total lack fo references. 19:57:06 Yah, I know :P 19:57:14 But that was my impression of what TC/TE meant, too. 19:57:32 Friendship: I'm unconvinced that the "complete" derives from complexity theory. 19:57:53 I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that it doesn't *shrugs* 19:57:58 But it's the only comparison I know of. 19:58:16 People search for "bettereave"? People search for "yoob"? 19:58:39 Don't be such a yoob, of course people search for bettereave. 19:59:19 Ah, presumably typos for http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betterave 19:59:27 Wait, that was my typo. 19:59:31 People search for betterave, rather :P 20:00:03 Friendship: I especially like that one of our top search terms is "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa". 20:00:11 Do people count out the As to match our article? 20:01:30 Probably they just type a bunch of a's, and we happen to get those subset of A-typers who match. 20:03:46 I suppose the problem with our definition of Turing-complete is that it's sort of unclear what it's implications are with respect to extraneous behavior such as I/O. 20:04:53 It's that bloody function-vs.-computation distinction again. 20:05:02 Heh 20:05:26 Friendship: So how does all this tie in with the 2,3 TM :D 20:05:49 Well, obviously *brain explodes* 20:06:21 Haha infinite encodings = pain! 20:06:23 * elliott tends to think it's not TC. 20:06:28 Friendship: Oh, infinite isn't that bad. 20:06:32 It's infinite and *non-repeating*. 20:06:38 (But generatable by a sub-TC machine) 20:07:15 Wooow, people have Google +1'd Esolang pages. 20:07:17 so it turns out that toroidal symmetries are incredibly good at reducing numbers of states 20:07:20 But why. 20:07:28 yay. 20:07:55 itidus21: hi 20:10:21 -!- graue has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:12:33 -!- itidus20 has joined. 20:13:00 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:14:01 elliott: Yeah, "infinite" wasn't the right term. 20:15:06 hi/ih monqy/onqym/nqymo/qymon/ymonq/yqnom/qnomy/nomyq/omnqy/mnqyo 20:15:22 thats offensive 20:18:17 Oh, that gnomy qnomy. 20:18:26 people who spell out btw are weird. 20:18:41 I think my internal chatspeak algorithm just picks the shortest one to say 20:18:49 so "afk" is "afk" but "wtf" is "what the fuck" 20:18:58 yeah 20:19:08 afk stands for afk 20:19:13 i wonder what these things are like in 3d 20:19:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:19:22 oh the agony 20:19:31 speaking of agony, hi oerjan 20:19:35 X-D 20:19:49 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/ 20:20:21 mRoman: I appreciate your desire to implement the truth machine in IRP, but hope you don't resort to requesting the opposite now ... 20:20:47 and I guess when there's a tie I pick the acronym expansion 20:20:55 I mentally say "oh my god" when I see omg. 20:21:14 *"omg" 20:21:27 What about "zomg"? 20:21:30 And "omgwtfbbqlol"? 20:21:39 zomg is like "zoh my god" 20:21:52 Friendship: Hoooow is #irp still full of people who aren't in here 20:21:55 "oh my god what the fuck barbecue lol" 20:21:58 elliott: I know, right. 20:22:13 elliott: I wasn't even in there for years, then I joined and went "lolwut who are you all" 20:22:56 #irp isn't /list'ed :( 20:23:05 Friendship: I intentionally chose 0 ;) 20:23:25 are we about to exerpeince a mass immigration from #irp? 20:23:42 I doubt it. 20:23:49 Friendship: just answer with a line of 1's and claim the irc server cut it off. 20:24:15 "Hey, /I/ sent an infinitely-long packet, the /server/ cut it short." 20:24:32 mRoman: Technically, only the first line is the implementation. 20:24:42 But I suppose IRP is IRP. 20:25:26 !glass {M[m(_v)V!(_v)n.?(_o)O!(_o)o.?]} 20:25:44 i realized the trick i used in the quine is used too little 20:26:08 !glass {M[m(_v)0V!n.?(_o)0O!o.?]} 20:26:11 Anonymous1 20:26:19 tswett: ^ 20:27:06 wat 20:27:38 elliott: a lot of glass code does (variable)Class!(variable)method.? like stuff 20:27:57 but (variable)0Class!method.? is shorter 20:28:08 *lots of parentheses 20:28:14 ok 20:28:32 i think i've given up on writing a truth-machine in ijfijtijtifjitojidftidotgjklsdfg 20:28:34 :( 20:28:35 Variables being first class on the stack is super-bizarre :) 20:28:40 elliott: ah. 20:29:11 I wonder if it is possible to write a truth-machine in CHIQRSX9+ 20:29:23 mRoman: probably not a reliable one 20:29:25 nah that's CHIQRSX9+T 20:29:39 Basically we'd need to find a perl programm which can be rotated to CHIQRS9+ 20:29:40 oerjan: ah? 20:29:54 elliott: to your giving up. 20:29:56 mRoman: not every valid ascii character is a valid start of a perl program, Q.E.D. 20:30:10 Yeah. 20:30:11 oerjan: it's so hard ;_; 20:30:16 mRoman: what elliott said, but i guess you might be able to do better than 1/256 20:30:23 But if the random number is correct, it would be a truth machine 20:30:40 mRoman: then the task is as trivial as writing a perl program :P 20:30:44 and prefixing it with X 20:31:10 mRoman: i once spammed this channel with a CHIQRSX9+ program hundreds of times or so until it ran the perl code correctly. 20:31:22 well i guess other people helped 20:31:48 Then you got banned for spamming, right? 20:31:56 elliott: MAYBE 20:31:59 no 20:32:15 actually elliott was the one who sent the correct one iirc 20:32:24 that may be 20:32:42 YOU APPRECIATE MY SPAM WHEN IT HELPS OERJAN, I SEE 20:32:53 elliott: well it was on topic spam, at least 20:33:06 Ohhh, I see. 20:33:07 WELL THEN. 20:33:16 Funge-98 Final Specification 20:33:17 Chris Pressey, Sept 11, 1998 20:33:17 revised for clarity: Sept 30 1998 20:33:17 Table of Contents 20:33:17 Introduction 20:33:17 What is a Funge? 20:33:19 About this Document 20:33:55 elliott: i reserve the right to be a hypocrite as long as you're being willfully annoying :P 20:34:25 * elliott is about 43% sure tomodo is who he thinks he is. 20:34:50 Pronoun MADNESS 20:35:09 Friendship: well are _you_ who you think you are, hm? 20:35:37 I am the abstract notion of friendship, given form and a laptop with wireless internet access. 20:35:49 oerjan: if tomodo joins this channel sometime in the next few weeks, I would suggest a ban before things get out of hand again. 20:36:43 Preban :) 20:36:45 elliott: are we speaking of f.., m.......y, c......s...? 20:37:06 oerjan: wat 20:37:24 inside joke? 20:37:26 Was fax known to use tor? 20:37:37 Friendship: I think once or twice? Dunno >_> 20:37:42 oerjan: But yes, f.. and j-i* 20:37:48 oerjan: My evidence is: 20:37:52 `pastelogs f..\,? m.......y\,? c......s... 20:37:58 18:14:17: Im so disappointed with my AI 20:37:59 18:24:35: :) 20:37:59 18:24:36: -!- pleiades has quit (K-Lined). 20:37:59 18:25:53: DanFrederiksen: I'll tell you about it if you want 20:37:59 18:35:03: that wont be necessary 20:37:59 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12261 20:37:59 18:36:23: you're an idiot and a troll 20:38:01 18:36:32: I'm putting you on /ignore from nowon 20:38:03 18:44:03: tomodo: excellent choice 18:44:36: I don't like smug people 18:44:55: it's just a way to try to appear superior when you have nothing to show for yourself 18:45:31: you are the troll buddy 20:38:07 O_O 20:38:07 -- #ai logs 20:38:12 + they joined #haskell and talked about a scheme program they wrote 20:38:25 complaining about it in a way which strongly reminds me of fax. 20:38:32 elliott: You realize those AI logs are at a URL, you don't need to paste them in the channel X_X 20:38:34 but there's #scheme ... 20:38:41 Friendship: I'm laaaazy. 20:38:48 PiRSquared: Yes, but then they wanted to rewrite it in Haskell, or something. 20:38:51 PiRSquared: not so much inside joke as someone who keeps coming back with new nicks, but being easily recognizable, and with some _serious_ self control problems 20:39:09 worse than mine?!? 20:39:10 Oh, M*y = M*P*y 20:39:15 Not sure what c*s* is 20:39:30 itidus20: you don't go ballistic on the channel 20:39:40 fsvo ballistic 20:39:57 well you guys don't bait me into offtopics 20:39:59 it helps 20:40:22 -!- Infinikiller64 has joined. 20:40:26 hi 20:40:26 itidus20: Your favorite programming language and/or environment and/or operating system and/or pony is terrible and we all hate it/her. 20:40:32 `welcome Infinikiller64 20:40:35 Infinikiller64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 20:40:48 I'm so glad I said that immediately after somebody /join'd, with the nick "Friendship" no less X-D 20:41:13 `pastelogs f\w+ m\w+y c\w+s\w* 20:41:19 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14881 20:41:32 my favorite pony is fluttershy 20:41:35 like.. suppose one of you posted a url to a site about corrupt olympic officals.. i would inevitably start ranting about it 20:41:36 to kill 20:41:36 finite memory constraints 20:41:42 elliott: Hahaha, I've ruined the channel. 20:41:43 I win forever. 20:41:50 is "f.., m.......y, c......s..." finite memory constraints??? 20:41:55 wat 20:42:06 PiRSquared: fax, misspiggy, i don't remember the c*s* one 20:42:22 aka faxathisia aka soupdragon aka quantumEd aka j-invariant aka crystal-cola aka ... 20:42:50 Infinikiller64: What's amazing is that this channel was on-topic no less than twenty minutes ago. 20:42:59 elliott: it was crystal-cola, forgot the hyphen 20:43:09 oh and what was at the end 20:43:20 oerjan: cryyyystall? 20:43:29 i guess maybe the .s were imprecise 20:43:33 -!- Infinikiller64 has left. 20:43:34 yep 20:43:37 lol 20:43:47 i suspect that was killer64 20:43:47 "finitely many configurations" matched my stupid regex 20:43:56 aka the first user in the new user log :P 20:43:58 elliott: who? 20:44:01 oh 20:44:24 Friendship: in general i'm very reactive.. i can't help it, my blood boils every time i read anything about patents or patent law 20:44:27 oerjan: Did you know that the diff colours are changing in the next mediawiki release??? 20:44:32 lol 20:44:37 they turn purple 20:44:44 or blue 20:44:51 elliott: BLASPHEMY 20:44:53 elliott: I blame everyone for his immediate departure. 20:44:58 Myself included. 20:45:06 Friendship: istr e was in here before 20:45:18 oerjan: see http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki&diff=44532&oldid=44311 for an example 20:45:22 itidus20: so you are patently unstable? 20:45:37 you can't patent instability you monster 20:46:19 I kinda like the green diffs 20:46:27 sure you can patent dna strands, tyre swings, and double-clicks 20:46:33 but not instability 20:46:38 You can even patent: 20:46:42 `words 20:46:44 ? 20:46:49 levante 20:46:53 probably 20:47:00 * PiRSquared patents levante 20:47:01 levante [patent pending] 20:47:30 the patent office won't reject it... you just have to have the money to get a settlement in court if anyone challenges your word patent 20:47:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levante <-- already a word or something 20:47:35 Arrrrgh, I'm Elisha Gray. 20:47:54 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/levante#Noun something in French... 20:48:12 and italian 20:49:25 the patent office is like an employment agency existing to connect businesses to courtrooms analagous to connecting employees to employers 20:49:36 its all networking 20:49:43 oerjan: I was hoping for at least a little aieee. 20:50:43 the more i think about it, its not such a bad thing 20:50:56 but.. the world would be better off if you couldn't actually license patents 20:51:01 that seems to be where the trouble festers 20:51:25 rather that if you wanted to do anything you would have to find a new method 20:51:33 ;zxdfluio';67i]uety'klu, 20:52:25 elliott: i'd be more interested if they made it choose more logical changes 20:52:35 ;zxdfluio';67i]uety'klu,™ 20:52:58 QED.. ballistic 20:53:05 oh and i sort of don't like that the color for entirely new lines is the same as the color for things that haven't changed 20:53:14 perhaps they've fixed that 20:53:41 (well no they didn't) 20:54:13 oerjan: sheesh it wasn't meant to be interesting 20:54:15 just scary and new 20:54:33 you can just edit the common.css ? 20:54:38 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOK 20:54:59 ... 20:55:20 PiRSquared: Hell naw, I love change! 20:55:28 Also apparently it was done for colour-blind people and I'M NICE. 20:55:43 .diff-addedline { background-color: (old color) } 20:55:56 oh 20:59:51 "This usage of a default BeVerb in Russian AI is a new technique in the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar and may not only constitute unpatentable _prior art_ in AI but may also contribute to a Technological Singularity if Russia repeats her spectacular success of first place in the sweepstakes of exploring the Dark Side of the Moon. It will be "GAME OVER", if the creative minds of Russia create the expanded Mind of Dushka." 21:00:06 are you _sure_ that wasn't said by fungot 21:00:39 Well. Those are words. 21:00:46 they're in quotation marks 21:01:16 oerjan: it's mentifex, what's the difference? 21:01:35 who's metnifex again 21:01:57 (sorry, i ahve to type blind because of tremendous lag) 21:02:50 crackpot ai guy 21:03:39 ah 21:06:08 crackpot ai guy?? 21:06:16 (Here we go again) 21:07:02 "the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar"? didn't that happen ages ago? 21:07:10 ais523: you'd think 21:07:48 PiRSquared: crackpot ai guy 21:08:27 ais523: hm it's strange how it's obvious what's really meant, and yet it _does_ flag him as someone who doesn't think very precisely 21:08:38 Man, some of these evil spidering bots are really aggressive. 21:08:51 and thus a possible crackpot 21:09:02 (just my impression) 21:09:39 -!- Gregor has quit (Client Quit). 21:10:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:10:13 oerjan: anyone who uses the words "mayan calendar" without following them up with "historically" or "debunked" is fairly likely to be a crackpot :P 21:11:06 elliott: i really think we should distinguish people who believe stuff from people who make them up 21:11:13 *just believe 21:12:12 or hm 21:12:24 **it 21:12:27 *-* 21:14:20 what about people who make stuff up without believing it? 21:14:41 there's a different word for that 21:14:54 oerjan: I have no ide what the resulting sentence is 21:14:58 *idea 21:15:20 but yes, you're right, "crackpot" should probably be reserved for people with their own "theories" 21:15:26 Hahahah reading logs. 21:15:33 Apparently I wrote some corewars fanfic: 21:15:35 "We were caught in each others' embrace, each in the moment executing each others' code, neither wishing to look back to our own, and so we danced. On the horizon, an imp, come clearly to ruin our brief romance, advanced towards us. As we looked deeply into each others loop construct for one last moment, our impending fate became us as it does us all. Now we too are imps." 21:15:37 elliott: the final two corrections are just obsessive anyhow 21:16:16 periodic reminder that https://github.com/tombell/trollscript exists and humanity is worthless 21:16:44 * oerjan declares Friendship a Knight of Rule 34 21:17:00 that's rule 34? 21:17:06 that's barely even a romance novel 21:17:17 close enough for me 21:17:17 Gimme a break, it's one line X-D 21:17:22 No, Rule 34 automaton 21:17:26 It's just shipping, no sex >_> 21:17:35 AT BEST, Friendship is a Pawn of Corewars Shipping 21:17:44 F- would not grant title to again. 21:17:49 :'( 21:18:34 incidentally the norwegian word for the chess piece is "hest", meaning horse 21:19:16 oh wait hm 21:19:32 that's colloquial, the official is "springer" 21:20:16 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 21:20:37 Which of course is a reference to Springer Media, the publishing company. 21:20:43 meaning "leaper". while bishop is "løper", just to be confusing. 21:20:59 (and means "runner") 21:21:43 Friendship: i guess it's also the german word 21:22:45 (yes) 21:23:30 (no) 21:23:49 Sooooo... 21:23:55 I bet Friendship knows how to access private members of a PHP class. 21:24:17 Oh! OutputPage is a ContextSource! 21:24:19 That's convenient, that is. 21:24:29 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:24:31 Convenient like butter on ice. 21:24:54 (declare (ignore hunger)) 21:25:18 Sgeo, my friends. Sgeo. 21:25:42 $wgOut->addLink( array( 'rel' => 'canonical', 21:25:42 'href' => $this->getTitle()->getLocalURL() ) 21:25:42 ); 21:25:46 Well das easy. 21:26:13 Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :) 21:26:43 i think it would all depend on exactly how the PDA is allowed to construct the input to its oracle... 21:26:46 * Sgeo wonders if using declare ignore is excessively verbose 21:26:51 Other languages just prefix or use _ 21:26:52 >.> 21:27:49 because it's not hard to turn a turing computation with a true/false result into two halting problems 21:28:19 (just add a final infinite loop on true, respectively false) 21:29:03 TODOFIX: 21:29:05 function addCanonicalLink( OutputPage &$out, Skin &$skin ) { 21:29:05 if ( $out->isArticle( ) ) { 21:29:05 $out->addLink( array( 21:29:05 'rel' => 'canonical', 21:29:05 'href' => $out->getWikiPage()->getTitle()->getLocalURL() 21:29:06 ) ); 21:29:08 } 21:29:10 } 21:29:12 #$wgHooks['BeforePageDisplay'][] = 'addCanonicalLink'; 21:31:24 * oerjan swats everyone who used "automata" for the singular in the log discussion -----### 21:31:54 oerjan: I can't seem to view this piece of data... 21:32:29 elliott: i think that one's gone too far to protest. 21:33:04 * elliott says "datum/criterion" on occasion. 21:33:22 I believe I've even said "desideratum" once. 21:37:40 `words 50 21:37:52 gazari culat chopf buffigioi raima sokushn conum teaversonia crol itanacy pparvada dun fauclerron shee rov brah supfle luffaira unho gencom dishelin vacclxx thop levu inquina 21:41:29 Wait, John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged is /a quarter of the book/. 21:41:56 Phantom_Hoover: What? 21:42:00 It's ~60 pages, I thought. 21:42:03 Atlas Shrugged is over 1000. 21:42:23 70 pages out of 1168 sez WP 21:42:27 Huh, apparently TV Tropes can't divide. 21:42:35 Wait that's a statistic on the WP page 21:49:21 70 pages is way too much, no matter the overall book 21:55:30 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:55:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:03:02 I'd appreciate comments on the wiki about a proposed policy change: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Policy#Language_authors 22:06:28 Wait, ais523's middle name is known? 22:06:51 I know it. I don't think it's known. 22:06:53 I don't generally admit to having one 22:06:54 "and his middle name is not common knowledge" // it's certainly known by at least himself 22:06:57 although it's obvious that it exists 22:07:04 ais523, what is it already c'mon 22:07:07 it's not common knowledge, but IIRC it is public knowledge if you know where to look 22:07:17 but it's more fun if people try to find it for themselves 22:07:24 I choose to imagine that it's Iguana. 22:07:30 elliott, he basically just said it's OK for you to tell me OK 22:07:48 FSVO basically. 22:08:16 * oerjan also knows ais523's middle name *cackles evilly* 22:09:08 * oerjan doesn't have a middle name btw 22:09:18 * elliott neither. 22:09:39 * Friendship is Gregor's middle name. 22:10:08 i'll see if i can remember that. 22:10:31 SO MUCH TALKING, SO LITTLE ON-WIKI REPLYING 22:11:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Alternative_outlets 22:11:20 Look at the "arbiter of viewpoints" line in the directory of alternatives. 22:11:49 lmao 22:12:07 elliott: hm i have the distinct impression that it used to be possible to edit sections from diff pages before, at least if the final version was the current one 22:12:52 since i generally tend to look through the recent changes by diffs, that was useful 22:12:53 oerjan: Well, that might be a MW change. I've seen Esolang's old LocalSettings.php, and it didn't turn on anything like that. 22:13:09 oerjan: Why not click the arrow in the diff message and hit "edit" from there? 22:13:11 That's two clicks. 22:13:19 Oh, that's not visible. 22:13:19 That's odd. 22:13:33 what arrow? 22:13:52 (→Language authors: new section) (show/hide) 22:13:56 The arrow is a link to the section. 22:14:00 But there's no [edit] link on the sections :/ 22:14:18 oh that arrow 22:14:30 yep 22:15:54 oerjan: I'll look into it. 22:15:58 but there's nothing i can do immediately 22:16:09 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:16:20 yay, maharba agrees with me :P 22:19:57 Phantom_Hoover: "Forum for general chatter#wikipedia, Wikipedia Review, mwusers.com" 22:20:06 Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia Review is the bestest place for general chatter for Wikipedia users. 22:23:49 ais523: hmm, I had an idea for an INTERCAL-inspired constraint-based tarpit 22:26:28 -!- PiRSquared has changed nick to [insertnickhere]. 22:27:27 -!- [insertnickhere] has quit (Quit: for(\;\;){}). 22:30:48 Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia Review is the bestest place for general chatter for Wikipedia users. 22:30:51 Remind me what it is, 22:31:52 Phantom_Hoover: err, possibly ais523 can explain better than I can 22:32:05 ais523, get explainin' 22:32:07 err, oh dear 22:32:27 it's basically a site whose purpose is bitching at Wikipedia 22:32:33 not intentionally, but that's the community it attracted 22:34:42 Phantom_Hoover: Basically it's a site that manages to be so trolly that it defeats the millions of valid criticisms one could make about Wikipedia. 22:35:10 real humans actually don't edit Wikipedia anymore. 22:35:12 Phantom_Hoover: Also reactionary, e.g. IIRC they tend to support anything Sanger says, despite the fact that he's a complete idiot, because he doesn't like Wikipedia nowadays. 22:35:14 it's all borg hivemind. 22:35:20 Heh. 22:36:34 Friendship: ais523: You should, like, reply on-wiki, like, , . 22:36:45 meh, doing something else 22:36:53 I can't dictate if my loyal supporters don't hail my every decision! 22:38:04 active and registered Wikipedia users are like 35% borg hivemind, 35% who use it as a social network, 25% trolls, and 5% who write legitimate well-written content. 22:38:27 I don't think I fit into any of those categories when I was active 22:38:32 social network was probably closest 22:38:39 same 22:39:04 think of it as like a multiset... or something 22:39:08 you can be multiple persons 22:39:14 in different categories. 22:39:34 it's totally legit, okay? 22:39:34 I think Wikipedia's actual article content wouldn't suffer if every registered user just disappeared :P 22:39:40 but it'd probably fall apart in every other area 22:40:04 well, I suppose vandal reversion would be the main thing lost 22:40:13 yep 22:40:39 no blocks, profusion of non-encyclopedic articles... 22:40:48 because no admins. 22:40:52 I think Wikipedia's actual article content wouldn't suffer if every registered user just disappeared :P 22:41:02 You mean disappeared altogether or stopped using their account? 22:41:14 The former. 22:41:26 see http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia 22:41:43 Wikipedia tend to claim, or at least did in the past, that a small group of registered users are responsible for most of the edits 22:41:51 but that's completely false if you look at articles 22:42:05 (I suppose it might be true if you include Wikipedia-namespace edits) 22:48:48 on behalf of the wikignomes, i'd like to protest that i feel left out of your classification 22:49:07 And 0.001% oerjan 22:49:18 although i suppose grammar corrections _might_ count as legitimate well-written content. 22:50:27 wikignomes don't tend to register, I would say 22:51:00 how else could i get a wikignome userbox, duh 22:51:44 hey there are IPs with user pages 22:51:51 ais523: what was that famous one? I ASSUME YOU HAVE THEIR IP MEMORISED 22:52:08 I don't 22:52:11 i guess. but i don't think my IP is stable. 22:53:32 oerjan: just add a redirect every time it changes :D 22:53:51 fancy. 22:55:59 heh, found the bug... my null was broken 22:56:20 was it 1 instead of 0? 22:57:58 it was returning an internal type instead of the actual return value, so if you tested the value of (null x) with e.g. an if, it'd get matched as "not nil" and take the true-branch every time 22:58:42 noticed it when trying to just evaluate and print (null something), because that internal thingy was not handled by the printer 22:59:27 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:59:31 what are you implementing this in? 22:59:36 C++ 23:00:29 ew 23:00:33 what are you implementing 23:00:35 & now also, why 23:00:42 i.e. in C++ templates at compile-time (the actual printing is an ugly messy hybrid, but the calculation of what to print is compile-time at least) 23:01:25 oh 23:01:26 bravo 23:01:33 olsner: I have some utilities you may find helpful for that 23:01:42 see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates 23:01:50 I built a bunch of nice utilities for this project today, also a test suite 23:01:53 probably very slow if you have large outputs though 23:02:00 but it makes the output part simple 23:02:08 and gives you decimal conversion ;) 23:04:52 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:04:59 representative code line from my print stuff: operator char *() { return (char *)(T*)this; } 23:11:44 -!- Jafet has joined. 23:14:43 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:49 hmm, I think the next project for this will be lexical scoping and destructive updates 23:19:37 -!- aloril has joined. 23:29:28 hmm, to keep track of the current state of all closures, it seems I need to build some kind of heap-like thing to store the closures in 23:30:07 elliott: since you gave up i guess i had to do it :) 23:30:26 otoh, it wouldn't be terribly surprising if C++ actually had some weird way to have mutable state in templates 23:31:20 oerjan: would you hate me if I told you that was what I was hoping for? :P 23:31:28 it's pretty 23:31:30 not particularly. 23:34:55 of course, that pretty much _is_ mostly a main loop template (although i did not copy an earlier one directly.) 23:35:48 I NOTE THAT NOBODY ASKED ABOUT MY NEW ESOLANG IDEA 23:35:56 wat 23:36:21 ais523: hmm, I had an idea for an INTERCAL-inspired constraint-based tarpit 23:36:57 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:37:27 ask ask 23:37:44 OK so basically there's only one instruction, and it's "don't come from". 23:38:05 Execution proceeds by going to the only place it isn't forbidden from going to. 23:38:14 (If there are multiple it's nondeterministic or something.) 23:38:49 Will it feature a cut rule? 23:39:08 Cut rules are for laaaaameeers. 23:39:20 Oh, and the come from is computed, of course. 23:39:44 * Phantom_Hoover -> sleep, I should really start doing that earlier. 23:39:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:42:38 10 input i 23:42:38 20 don't come from 9+i and don't come from 40 and print 0 23:42:39 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 40 and exit 23:42:39 40 don't come from 10+i and don't come from 20 and print 1 23:42:41 ^ truth-machine 23:43:03 (OK, there are input/print/exit instructions too.) 23:44:17 Come on, that's pretty! 23:44:26 Also variables are immutable. 23:44:36 I think. 23:44:56 Now elliott plays name-that-computational-class! 23:45:11 Also you can only have one non-don't-come-from command per line. 23:45:35 Ooh, DON’T COME FROM is even cooler than COME FROM. 23:45:39 Jafet: I guess I'll probably need mutable data to be TC. 23:45:57 Just add instructions that add instructions. 23:46:17 Self-modifying languages are all the rage 23:46:22 tempting actually 23:48:40 elliott: Doesn't line 10 need some don't-come-froms? 23:48:53 fizzie: Oh, indeed. 23:49:04 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 40 and input i 23:49:04 20 don't come from 9+i and don't come from 40 and print 0 23:49:04 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 40 and exit 23:49:04 40 don't come from 10+i and don't come from 20 and print 1 23:49:16 Mayhaps it should have a more concise syntax. 23:49:44 -!- Jafet has left. 23:49:48 -!- Jafet has joined.