←2012-03-05 2012-03-06 2012-03-07→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:01:16 <fizzie> Repeating, just in case.
00:01:18 <fizzie> I would guesstimate it's about the same issue as https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12376
00:01:59 <fizzie> Something about the system ACPI AML code actually using the smbus, so it doesn't like if some other driver would make use of it.
00:02:10 <fizzie> Anyone's guess what it's relevant to.
00:05:07 <kallisti> how can I tell which ACPI drivers are relevant to my laptop
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00:06:55 <kallisti> hmmm...
00:06:59 <kallisti> maybe I should update my kernel? :P
00:07:02 <fizzie> I would think in the general case hotplug and such would load all the necessary modules depending on what the ACPI information says.
00:07:11 <kallisti> $ uname -r
00:07:11 <kallisti> 3.2.0-1-amd64
00:07:30 <fizzie> That sounds quite new already.
00:07:37 <kallisti> 3.2.6 might have some kind of bugfixes relevant to all these problems? just going out on a limb, lol
00:07:55 <fizzie> It's certainly possible.
00:08:18 <fizzie> You can check the changelogs for "i915" changes, those are especially likely to be relevant.
00:08:24 <kallisti> it looks like the bug you linked me to is patched in 3.2.28
00:09:00 <kallisti> linux-patch-debian-3.2 - Debian patches to version 3.2 of the Linux kernel
00:10:55 <kallisti> haven't installed this apparently.
00:11:00 <fizzie> They're only up in 3.2.9, so 3.2.28 sounds unlikely.
00:11:14 <kallisti> oh
00:11:15 <kallisti> 2.6
00:11:16 <kallisti> ha
00:11:23 <fizzie> Also it probably just has the patches, if you want to build a kernel.
00:11:43 <fizzie> If it's one of the linux-image-X packages, those have Debian's patchset in.
00:11:51 <kallisti> no
00:12:03 <kallisti> I have the newest linux kernel in Debian repos
00:13:34 <kallisti> (this is testing btw)
00:14:43 <kallisti> and my torrent is apparently not going anywhere...
00:17:54 <kallisti> there we go.
00:18:02 <kallisti> oh right I was going to restart X
00:19:22 <kallisti> yeah same output from xrandr -q
00:21:29 <kallisti> hmm for some reason I have both i915-kms.conf and radeon-kms.conf
00:27:35 <kallisti> hmm with bootparameters I can set individual video devices to KMS on or off.
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00:31:25 <fizzie> Yes, but you can also do the same with module options that come from whatever config files.
00:33:37 <fizzie> The 'intel' X driver shouldn't really have an output named "default" no matter whether KMS is on or off, though.
00:34:24 <kallisti> oh well... it does.
00:34:35 <fizzie> I suppose it *is* using the intel driver?
00:34:45 <kallisti> I would think so
00:34:55 <kallisti> is there any other possibility?
00:35:31 <fizzie> There's always vesa_drv, but if it's like it used to be, it's so slow you probably would've noticed.
00:35:51 <fizzie> /var/log/Xorg.0.log should mention "intel_drv.so" if it's using it.
00:36:17 <kallisti> yep
00:36:32 <kallisti> [ 4917.447] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/intel_drv.so
00:36:54 <kallisti> also
00:36:55 <kallisti> [ 4917.465] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/vesa_drv.so
00:37:31 <fizzie> Yes, it probably checks those all. But you should have a pile of "intel(0)" lines too.
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 16.944] (II) intel(0): Integrated Graphics Chipset: Intel(R) Q45/Q43
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 16.944] (--) intel(0): Chipset: "Q45/Q43"
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 16.944] (==) intel(0): video overlay key set to 0x101fe
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 17.085] (II) intel(0): Output VGA1 has no monitor section
00:37:43 <fizzie> [ 17.347] (II) intel(0): Output DVI1 has no monitor section
00:37:46 <fizzie> [ 17.504] (II) intel(0): EDID for output VGA1
00:37:48 <fizzie> Things like that.
00:37:55 <kallisti> not in the Xorg log, but I recall seeing them
00:38:17 <kallisti> maybe in dmesg?
00:38:26 <fizzie> Xorg log is where they should be.
00:38:52 <fizzie> I guess you could just sprunge that logfile while you're at it.
00:39:00 <fizzie> Or is it spruge? I can never remember.
00:39:06 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/cACi
00:39:10 <kallisti> enjoy
00:39:19 <kallisti> its sprunge
00:39:23 <kallisti> also known as "the best thing ever"
00:39:23 <fizzie> [ 4917.767] (II) VESA(0): initializing int10
00:39:23 <fizzie> [ 4917.768] (II) VESA(0): Bad V_BIOS checksum
00:39:24 <fizzie> [ 4917.768] (II) VESA(0): Primary V_BIOS segment is: 0xc000
00:39:29 <fizzie> Yeah, that's the vesa driver.
00:39:42 <fizzie> It doesn't do multiple outputs, probably.
00:39:42 <kallisti> perhaps because KMS is off?
00:39:53 <kallisti> or... no?
00:40:17 <fizzie> Well, maybe... though I wouldn't think KMS was mandatory yet.
00:40:39 <kallisti> there was definitely a change when I turned off KMS for the intel driver.
00:40:43 <kallisti> resolution is shit right now.
00:40:54 <kallisti> and plugging in the second monitor doesn't freeze anything
00:41:28 <fizzie> [ 4917.750] (EE) open /dev/fb0: No such file or directory
00:41:33 <fizzie> That's slightly suspicious.
00:41:35 <kallisti> what is fb0
00:41:42 <fizzie> First framebuffer.
00:42:15 <kallisti> :(
00:42:16 <kallisti> whut
00:42:23 <fizzie> Though it's also possible to not have kernel-side framebuffer devices and X could still be using the hardware-specific drivers.
00:42:38 <kallisti> $ ls /dev/fb*
00:42:38 <kallisti> ls: cannot access /dev/fb*: No such file or directory
00:42:40 <kallisti> apparently
00:43:59 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/dvm0 -- that's how it goes at work; it's identical up until that empty line, then it diverges.
00:44:25 <fizzie> Do you have the /dev/dri/ things?
00:44:52 <kallisti> /dev/dri/card0
00:45:20 <fizzie> Hrm, well; that's the kernel i915 driver, most likely, and I suppose it should be enough for the X driver.
00:46:18 <kallisti> so I just installed libggi-target-fbdev
00:46:22 <kallisti> which creates fb device nodes.
00:47:07 <kallisti> ...I have no idea if that changes anything.
00:47:27 <kallisti> but my general solution to things so far has been to apt-cache search things that sound relevant
00:47:30 <kallisti> and then blindly install them
00:47:47 <kallisti> which is probably not a good idea.
00:47:48 <kallisti> actually
00:48:57 <fizzie> If there's a kernel framebuffer, udev should make a /dev/fb0 for it. But I don't have a clue whether there normally is, for Intel graphics.
00:49:02 <fizzie> (The "optimal" fix of course would be to make things not hang even when KMS is enabled; that's the future-approved way of doing things.)
00:49:17 <fizzie> (Assuming X is using the intel driver when that is on.)
00:49:29 <kallisti> that's the only one it can use with KMS
00:49:59 <kallisti> KMS, according to the internet, is only used by radeon, intel, and... one other thing I don't remember
00:50:03 <kallisti> nvidia?
00:50:07 <kallisti> no wait
00:50:28 <fizzie> Sure, sure, but it's still possible to have Intel's DRI driver with KMS enabled, and have X just ignore that.
00:50:35 <kallisti> yep
00:50:42 <fizzie> (And break, of course.)
00:50:50 <kallisti> so...
00:50:59 <kallisti> I think I'm going to restart with KMS on and these fbdev things installed
00:51:03 <kallisti> ..and see what happens
00:51:34 <kallisti> or is that not going to change anything?
00:52:22 <kallisti> WHATEVER I'M DOING IT
00:52:36 <fizzie> Everything's worth trying.
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00:53:02 <itidus21> to all the questions with an odd vowel count the answer is yes, to all the questions with an even vowel count the answer is usefully no
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00:55:34 <kallisti> $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | sprunge http://sprunge.us/HghU
00:55:43 <kallisti> startup was unusually slow.
00:55:52 <kallisti> I mean
00:55:58 <kallisti> running .xsession took a long time for some reason
00:56:01 <kallisti> and then loading terminals
00:56:03 <kallisti> in xmonad
00:56:05 <kallisti> stuff like that.
00:56:43 <fizzie> Mhm.
00:56:56 <fizzie> Well, that's more intely, and multi-outputty.
00:57:06 <kallisti> aaaand... second monitor still freezes everything
00:57:31 <fizzie> (LVDS1 is the internal panel.)
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00:58:13 <kallisti> [ 49.050] (**) intel(0): Relaxed fencing enabled
00:58:21 <fizzie> Do you have a second box you can SSH from? I mean, is "freezes everything" just "-- graphically speaking", or does it actually affect running processes?
00:58:21 <kallisti> I didn't know xorg was a fan of casual sporting.
00:58:24 <kallisti> :>
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00:59:18 <kallisti> no ttys still work.
00:59:20 <kallisti> so it's graphical.
01:00:05 <fizzie> Then you could run "DISPLAY=:0 xrandr -q" and "DISPLAY=:0 xrandr --auto" in a tty.
01:00:32 <fizzie> (Assuming of course that it's not X completely that hangs up, just the visual side.)
01:01:01 <kallisti> as soon as I stop trying to lean back in a chair with wheels and almost falling over...
01:01:04 <kallisti> I'll get right on that.
01:03:38 <kallisti> it says LVDS1 is connected and nothing else is
01:03:39 <kallisti> with -q
01:03:41 <kallisti> --auto displays nothing
01:03:51 <fizzie> "The "Intel" wiki article says: "Versions 2.10 and newer of the xf86-video-intel driver no longer support UMS, making the use of KMS mandatory."." I suppose that explains why no-KMS system doesn't do the intel driver.
01:04:19 <kallisti> also if I switch to tty7
01:04:22 <kallisti> then unplug the VGA
01:04:29 <kallisti> it snaps back to whatever tty I was on before
01:04:32 <kallisti> which is kind of weird.
01:04:56 <kallisti> also Ubuntu download is done I could check that out
01:05:03 <kallisti> to rule out "broken monitor"
01:05:12 <kallisti> but it seems like a software thing...
01:06:22 <fizzie> It does, but of course one never knows.
01:06:56 <kallisti> oh good now I need to find a sane disk burner program
01:07:30 <kallisti> brasero?
01:07:35 <kallisti> that's what I used previously.
01:07:54 <fizzie> There seem to be all kinds of "wavy output on external screen" woes and such with i915 + KMS + i3, but nothing directly related. Of course it's possible that some unrelated fix fixes your problems too.
01:08:53 <fizzie> I've mostly just used wodim and growisofs, and Brasero for one audio CD project that it kept crashing on, so...
01:08:57 <zzo38> On Linux systems I have used "wodim" to record optical discs
01:10:17 <kallisti> ...dd?
01:10:20 <kallisti> :P
01:11:31 <zzo38> As far as I know, dd cannot be used to record optical discs.
01:11:59 <zzo38> It works with most other things, though.
01:12:38 <olsner> seems like a thing dd should be able to do, but iirc cd recorders need special magic
01:15:23 <kallisti> bah. I'll just use brasero.
01:15:31 <kallisti> too much command line.
01:15:44 <olsner> weakling
01:16:09 <kallisti> dude I've been reading so many man pages lately...
01:16:12 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling with some variants of DVDs you can maybe do it. At least growisofs's "burn an image" mode just says "executing builtin_dd", though it might do some initial magic before that.
01:17:29 <fizzie> Anyway, wodim's so easy nowadays; just "wodim blah.iso" or "wodim blank=fast" if you need to clear a cdrw first. Back when it was just "cdrecord" it was all about -scanbus flags and figuring out "fakey" SCSI device numbers for the dev= parameter.
01:17:57 <kallisti> oh...
01:18:00 <kallisti> yeah that worked...
01:18:14 <kallisti> the man page was being quite overcomplicated with its examples.
01:19:09 <fizzie> It can do so very much.
01:19:19 <fizzie> I think I'll slep a bit.
01:19:38 <kallisti> god niet
01:21:27 <kallisti> does it pick the maximum speed by default?
01:21:30 <kallisti> seems to be taking a while.
01:21:47 <kallisti> Speed set to 4234 KB/s
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01:38:38 <kallisti> fizzie: hm, no. it does the same thing in Ubuntu
01:38:50 <kallisti> so, apparently it's a hardware issue.
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02:15:52 <oerjan> <elliott> Anyway, we've entered stage #3 of your terrible ideas, "sarcastically dismissing all objections"; roll on stage #4.
02:16:04 <oerjan> do you think we could get david attenborough to narrate this?
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02:16:56 <oerjan> "And here the kallisti makes a foolish move, allowing the spotted swamp elliott to jump for attack..."
02:18:36 <kallisti> oerjan: all in good fun.
02:18:37 <kallisti> of course.
02:18:55 <oerjan> for a good meal, i think we say.
02:20:17 <kallisti> '(cperl-highlight-variables-indiscriminately t)
02:20:22 <kallisti> indiscriminately I say
02:20:26 <zzo38> For a bad chess, I think we say.
02:21:26 <zzo38> (Or variant)
02:21:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think i gave you link discussing whether the fermat's last theorem can be proved in weak theories before
02:21:33 <oerjan> *a link
02:22:11 <oerjan> (iirc the answer was something like "it's ongoing research")
02:22:45 <oerjan> chess boxing, perhaps
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02:26:05 <kallisti> I now have a POPUP EMACS TOOLBAR
02:26:11 <kallisti> with the command show-toolbar-for-one-command
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02:29:24 <kallisti> hmmm...
02:29:27 <kallisti> tmpfs is full?
02:29:27 <kallisti> whut
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03:55:02 <Sgeo_> I can't help but think that Clojure looks like a neat language but the JVM is iffy
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03:59:49 <oerjan> bloody connection
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04:13:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> Do you have a .plan file on any accounts anywhere?
04:13:57 <oerjan> as a matter of fact i do.
04:14:14 <oerjan> tyrell:oerjan:~> cat .plan
04:14:14 <oerjan> World domination through widespread nonsense and confusion.
04:14:21 <oerjan> hope this helps.
04:14:54 <oerjan> tyrell:oerjan:~> ls -l .plan
04:14:54 <oerjan> -rw-r--r-- 1 oerjan nettverk 60 1994-09-20 19:13 .plan
04:15:54 <oerjan> i'm all set on the confusion part, the widespread part is lagging a bit.
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04:50:09 <kallisti> http://www.reddit.com/r/kidsdancinglikewhores
04:50:20 <kallisti> yep
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04:57:24 <oerjan> Let's see if the webchat is more stable than going through nvg
04:58:09 <tswett> Okay, I'm really sort of surprised there isn't a language called BBBBBBBBBBBBBB.
04:58:26 <tswett> I've probably mentioned this before, but it was probably years ago.
04:58:43 <oerjan> good point, also an opportunity for the discriminating esolanger
04:58:54 <tswett> So yeah. I'm going to create a new language now.
05:00:15 <tswett> Hm... I'm not coming up with any ideas.
05:00:19 <oerjan> ah a violentacrez creation.
05:00:46 <tswett> Ah, Señora Violenta Crez. She's some reddit guy, isn't she?
05:01:08 <oerjan> i've not heard about eir being female, but...
05:01:21 <oerjan> anyway notorious for making notorious subreddits
05:01:21 <tswett> I have no idea what Sra. Crez has to do with this.
05:01:44 <tswett> Well, "Violenta" is a feminine word, right? So clearly she's female.
05:01:44 <oerjan> that was to kallisti's link above
05:01:50 <tswett> Ah, I see.
05:02:23 <oerjan> your logic is impeccable and i must submit.
05:03:12 <tswett> So, maybe this language should be based on delay lines...
05:04:12 <oerjan> sounds most excellent.
05:04:42 <tswett> Lessee, how do we discretize the wave equation?
05:04:59 <tswett> Which is, of course, a fancy way of saying "implement delay lines in a cellular automaton".
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05:05:29 <oerjan> difference calculus, perhaps?
05:05:43 <tswett> Let . represent "off" and # represent "on"; then a signal on a delay line looks something like ....#....
05:06:02 <oerjan> like whatever is the difference calculus version of sin'' = -sin
05:06:21 <tswett> Most of the .s are off, did not just change, and are not adjacent to #, so they stay off: (0,0,0) -> 0.
05:06:38 <tswett> The . to the left of the # is off, did just change, and is adjacent to #, so it stays off: (0,1,1) -> 0.
05:06:56 <tswett> The # is on, did just change, and is not adjacent to #, so it turns off: (1,1,0) -> 0.
05:07:07 <oerjan> hm also needs to use a finite field or maybe ring
05:07:35 <tswett> And the . to the right of the # is off, did not just change, and is adjacent to #, so it turns on: (0,0,1) -> 1.
05:08:21 <tswett> So the obvious way to do this: a cell's next state is its current state XOR (its current state XOR its previous state) XOR whether or not it's adjacent to a #.
05:08:25 <tswett> Which is a stupid way to write that.
05:08:35 <tswett> A cell's next state is its previous state XOR whether or not it's adjacent to a #.
05:08:58 <oerjan> ^celebrate
05:08:59 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
05:09:12 <oerjan> hm a myndzi shortage
05:09:23 * oerjan wanted to see how it looked in the webchat
05:09:30 <tswett> > [S] myndzi: exist
05:09:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `S'Not in scope: `myndzi'Not in scope: `exist'
05:09:42 <tswett> Whoops. I meant to say that in such a way that lambdabot doesn't hear it.
05:09:46 <tswett> > [S] myndzi: exist
05:09:48 <tswett> Much better.
05:09:59 <oerjan> fiendish
05:10:07 <tswett> Very.
05:14:07 <tswett> Come to think of it, the delay line I just gave isn't linear, and it's non-linear in such a way that signals will not freely pass through each other.
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05:16:59 <tswett> Okay. I have the complete language now.
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05:23:54 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = zipWith (scanl $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l . tail $ cycle l' in head $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:23:58 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
05:24:02 <tswett> I think the correct pronunciation of "BBBBBBBBBBBBBB" will be "Three in the Morning (RJ's I Can Barely Sleep In This Casino Remix)".
05:24:05 <oerjan> oops
05:24:12 <tswett> Which is to say, it will be the song.
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05:30:56 <tswett> I think that using delay lines alone, you can construct any linear circuit... maybe.
05:31:32 <oerjan> oh hm
05:31:41 <tswett> An intersection acts as a XOR gate. It's a XOR gate that spits bits back down its inputs, though.
05:34:33 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map head $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:34:34 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,1,2,2,0,...
05:34:40 <oerjan> yay
05:34:59 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 1) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:35:00 <lambdabot> [1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,1,0,3,1,...
05:35:04 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 2) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:35:06 <lambdabot> [0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,4,3,3,0,...
05:35:09 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 3) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:35:11 <lambdabot> [-1,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4,4,0,2,4...
05:35:27 <oerjan> oops oh well
05:36:08 <oerjan> > let cycd b l = l' where l' = scanl (zipWith $ \x y -> (x+y) `mod` b) l $ map (tail . cycle) l' in map (!! 4) $ cycd 5 [0,1,0,-1]
05:36:09 <lambdabot> [*Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
05:36:23 <oerjan> hmph
05:37:24 <oerjan> oh well looks plausible
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05:40:18 <tswett> You're not... implementing these delay line thingies in Haskell, are you?
05:41:30 <kallisti> Haskell is a good language for DSP what?
05:44:04 <tswett> Arrows.
05:44:06 <tswett> I rest my case.
05:46:58 * tswett realizes that the rule he came up with is, in fact, a discrete version of the wave equation.
05:47:10 <quintopia> haha
05:47:31 <quintopia> whats the rule
05:47:41 <oerjan> tswett: i'm just trying to write a difference version of the wave equation
05:47:59 <tswett> "A cell's next state is its previous state XOR whether or not it's adjacent to an 'on' cell."
05:48:14 <quintopia> oh, yeah.
05:48:24 <tswett> Lessee. The wave equation says that the acceleration is proportional to the concavity. So if I want to introduce non-linearity... I should probably say that the acceleration is related, but not proportional, to the concavity.
05:48:40 <tswett> s/an 'on' cell/an odd number of 'on' cells/--*then* it's linear.
05:48:50 <tswett> s/an 'on' cell/at least one 'on' cell/--boom, non-linear.
05:49:18 <oerjan> um acceleration is _always_ proportional to concavity
05:49:37 <oerjan> i think you mean that both are proportional to the current value
05:50:13 <oerjan> or maybe i don't quite remember the equation, i'm just going by f'' = -f here
05:50:38 <tswett> Yeah, f'' = -f is not the wave equation.
05:51:11 <tswett> Heck. If time and space are the same, acceleration *is* concavity.
05:51:27 <tswett> Acceleration is the second derivative with respect to time; concavity, with respect to space.
05:51:47 <oerjan> oh right hm
05:52:26 <Jafet> f'' = -f is a wave equation
05:52:31 <quintopia> is this a 1d rule or 2d?
05:52:44 <oerjan> f'' = -f is for just a single point in space
05:52:55 <tswett> quintopia: 1D space, 1D time, so that adds up to 2D.
05:53:04 <tswett> Wait, what am I saying?
05:53:11 <quintopia> ok
05:53:26 <tswett> The rule I just gave is discrete and can be applied to an arbitrary graph; dimension doesn't matter.
05:53:46 * tswett gradually goes to bed.
05:53:58 <quintopia> yes but it may not be interesting in arbitrary graphs
05:55:04 <tswett> > /me shows off his stupid magical ability to go unheard by bots.
05:55:13 <tswett> > Good night, everyone!
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08:26:05 <fizzie> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/1/0/119210_v1.jpg I... don't think that fish is really our symbol.
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08:29:19 <olsner> fizzie == fishie
08:30:47 <fizzie> Mind you, I don't know what exactly it should be. Of course there's always the flag, or maybe the retarded lion.
08:31:12 <oerjan> ah the retarted lion
08:31:24 <oerjan> was that from satw
08:31:32 <fizzie> Yes.
08:31:58 <oerjan> you could always go with the moomins
08:32:32 <fizzie> http://satwcomic.com/coat-of-arms
08:32:59 <fizzie> (And http://satwcomic.com/proud-finland as an extension.)
08:34:48 <olsner> http://finland.fi/Public/default.aspx?contentid=160085&nodeid=41803&culture=en-US
08:42:36 <fizzie> No mention on whether Swedes made it look retarded as a not-so-subtle dig.
09:13:05 <kallisti> It's a mistake to think that if something isn't constantly changing then it's somehow obsolete. Some things just work, and don't need to change for the sheer sake of change.
09:14:50 <kallisti> I think this is basically what's happening to the technology market.
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09:55:57 <zzo38> I do not completely understand what causes midnight sun and that stuff. I know the tropics; and there are also polar circles but I do not understand them as much as the tropics. But what I know is Placidus houses are not defined in polar regions, and Campanus houses can sometimes be reversed in polar regions, and the azimuth of Sun will be to the north.
09:56:18 <zzo38> But I see nothing about the relation of those things in Wikipedia
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13:13:30 <BIOCreator> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Basic_Input/Output_Commander#The_point_of_Basic_Input.2FOutput_Commander.3F
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13:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> What a strange person.
13:32:35 <fizzie> Uh.
13:34:31 <fizzie> I suppose that was mostly meant for elliott, I guess?
13:34:56 <fizzie> E's the one that's been... interacting.
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13:58:08 <elliott> How did you convert text to character numbers?
13:58:08 <elliott> This is an advanced algorithm, but you can find an easy converter here (Convert ASCII text into Decimal/Unicode, not Padded, use "" as a delimeter left and " " as a delimeter right)
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13:58:55 <fizzie> You need a degree to understand it, that's how advanced it is.
13:59:27 <fizzie> ^ord This is an advanced algorithm.
13:59:27 <fungot> 84 104 105 115 32 105 115 32 97 110 32 97 100 118 97 110 99 101 100 32 97 108 103 111 114 105 116 104 109 46
14:00:07 <elliott> You are a master.
14:00:24 <elliott> OK, "scenarii" is in no way a valid plural of "scenario", right?
14:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
14:01:34 * elliott doesn't trust Vorpal's opinions on English.
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14:01:55 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover
14:02:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well the spell checker doesn't like "scenarii" and it does like "scenario", good enough for me
14:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> hello
14:02:10 <fizzie> Do you trust Wiktionary's? Because they comment on it specifically. "scenarii: From scenario, the terminal o having been replaced with an i to form its plural, as per the Italian -o → -i pattern for forming plurals, by analogy with concerti and virtuosi. However, the plural of the Italian word scenario is scenari, making “scenarii” etymologically inconsistent. (nonstandard, rare) Plural form of scenario."
14:02:45 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, so they didn't coin it just for this email?
14:02:53 <elliott> OK, I'll resist the urge to yell at them, then.
14:03:04 <fizzie> For examples of the usage of this term see the citations page.
14:03:41 <fizzie> It has a total of three (3) examples.
14:03:57 <fizzie> Two book excerpts and a conference paper.
14:04:17 <fizzie> I could imagine a scientimancer use it, they like to be all ERDRUIDITE like that.
14:04:48 <fizzie> (The name of the author sounds Italian.)
14:05:44 <fizzie> (And the books are textbooks too.)
14:06:24 <fizzie> Handbook of The History Of Logic: Volume 7: Logic and the Modalities in the Twentieth Century: "Possible worlds are a special kind of scenarii, namely scenarii held possible by what R. Parikh calls “the community theory” or “our theory”…"
14:06:29 <fizzie> Fancy, eh?
14:06:46 <Vorpal> quite
14:11:39 <elliott> 18:08:24: <Vorpal> ais523, I seen backtracking implemented with call/cc in a very elegant way, not sure what other abstraction in scheme would be suitable. Sure you could add new ones but will you need multiple ones or will whatever replaces call/cc be as flexible?
14:11:51 <elliott> Oleg wants to replace call/cc with delimited continuations, which is exactly what you want for logic programming.
14:12:49 <Vorpal> ah
14:17:44 <elliott> Reading this question on SO is the most unpleasant thing I've done today.
14:19:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what question is that?
14:19:47 <elliott> No, I refuse to link anyone else to it.
14:19:57 -!- itidus20 has left ("Leaving").
14:20:04 <Vorpal> heh
14:20:11 <Vorpal> elliott, must be really bad then
14:20:18 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't even want to destroy my day
14:20:32 <elliott> Oh, believe me I do.
14:20:42 <elliott> But everyone else would click on it as well.
14:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, then why on earth?
14:20:46 <Vorpal> hah
14:22:34 <Vorpal> This is the shittiest CAT 5e cable I have seen. You can see and feel the internal wires through the outer "shell" in several places, and in other places there seem to be too much room internally.
14:23:15 <Vorpal> Usually CAT 5e cables are nice and round all the way, not so with this one
14:23:43 <fizzie> Remember not to use it for hi-fi applications, then.
14:24:04 <Vorpal> hah
14:24:36 <Vorpal> I should take a picture of this next to a good one
14:25:30 <fizzie> Now as for cables for *real men*, try something like http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable -- $3549 for a 3 feet (a bit less than a metre) USB cable.
14:25:51 <elliott> It has the ghost of that guy in them?
14:25:56 <fizzie> It's got wrappings made out of "carbon fiber, cotton, SPC braid, ERS fabric, Nylon, Teflon, and many more [materials]".
14:26:17 <elliott> "allow the "sould" of the original Cynosure to stay intact"
14:26:21 <elliott> Thank god its sould is intact.
14:26:33 <fizzie> It's I think some sort of a combination of 'sound' and 'soul'.
14:27:12 <Vorpal> what a joke
14:27:51 <fizzie> If "for some odd reason" it doesn't improve your "sould", you can return it, after paying just a 20% restocking fee + delivery charges, as long as it still looks new enough so that it can be sold to some other sucker^Wcustomer.
14:28:28 <elliott> "For those who demand the very best, and have the means to acquire it."
14:28:33 <elliott> "For RICH idiots!"
14:28:46 <fizzie> "I have a vendor partner who I have have taught (and wasted more money than I want to think about teaching them) to make my wire exactly like I want it made, and exactly to my specs, which I then treat with my CryoFreeze™ process as soon as I receive it. So, the raw materials are without peer."
14:28:48 <Vorpal> hm the outer shell of this CAT 5e cable is actually twisted by the internal twisting somehow
14:29:00 <Vorpal> I suspect they didn't get the tension of the internal cables correct
14:29:33 <elliott> fizzie: I do not think this person knows the meaning of the word "waste". For several reasons.
14:30:45 <fizzie> elliott: Well, if you're such a cheap guy, you can buy their entry-level product; the "Essentia". It's somewhere between the Axis and the Nucleus 2 in the lineup, "offering a "taste" of the Nucleus v2, while remaining affordably priced at under $1000 for up to a 3FT length."
14:31:23 <elliott> "WARNING: These converters are for entertainment purposes only. Do not use results in critical applications."
14:31:29 <fizzie> It uses the "newest custom manufactured CFDCT-UP-OCC-SPCu wire". You know, that "mono-crystal silver plated copper" one.
14:31:35 <elliott> -- the converter linked in that "This is an advanced algorithm, but you can find an easy converter here (Convert ASCII text into Decimal/Unicode, not Padded, use "" as a delimeter left and " " as a delimeter right)" thing.
14:32:11 <elliott> "These cheap lunches were the genesis of a deep connection over food that would burgeon over the years and define a major aspect of our association."
14:32:35 <elliott> "I subsequently dared him to order a durian boba drink, which is a sort of Vietnamese frozen drink that is flavored with the most foul, malodorous, bizarre-tasting fruit that can be imagined. I knew Lee’s honor was at stake, and he knew it too; he struggled valiantly to finish the whole thing as I taunted him."
14:33:08 <fizzie> Is this about converters or cables or some completely new topic?
14:34:00 <Vorpal> And now for something completely different
14:34:06 <fizzie> It sounds like it's describing the subcontractor negotiations of the cable guy.
14:34:21 <Vorpal> quit
14:34:23 <Vorpal> quite*
14:34:28 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/peacebrigoodbye-leei
14:34:52 <fizzie> Yeah, I kind of guessed it was from Locus Design.
14:35:01 <fizzie> I keep reading that as "Locust Design".
14:35:02 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:35:12 <elliott> "Lee seemed exceptionally fatigued and in a rather black mood, and he left to get a bucket of ice. When he returned, he promptly dumped about half of its contents onto the carpeted floor at the foot of his bed. I was taken aback by the deliberateness of this inexplicable act, but chose to assume that it was an accident, so I bent down to pick up the cubes and begin putting them back in the bucket. “Leave them there!” he growled at me, dumpin
14:35:13 <elliott> what I had put back, then scattering them around the floor haphazardly with his bare foot. “I wanted them there!”"
14:36:04 <fizzie> elliott: Is that how the CryoFreeze™ process was invented?
14:36:12 <elliott> :D
14:37:56 <fizzie> http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/cablecooker.htm
14:38:26 <fizzie> "The Extended Frequency Sweep (EFS) improves on every sonic parameter,
14:38:26 <fizzie> translating into more transparency and dimensionality, a deeper/wider soundstage,
14:38:29 <fizzie> and deeper / tighter bass information."
14:38:50 <fizzie> Have you "cooked your cables", if you know what I mean?
14:39:12 <Vorpal> http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/raven-power-cable <-- broken website
14:40:27 <elliott> My cable is always cooked, baby.
14:40:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Fortunately there's a description of it also on the Whiplash site.
14:40:59 <Vorpal> heh
14:41:03 <fizzie> Everyone keeps cryogenically treating their cables.
14:41:11 <Vorpal> "Close attention is paid to mitigating mechanical noise and triboelectric effects." <-- is "triboelectric" even a real word?
14:41:22 <fizzie> It is, apparently.
14:41:27 <Vorpal> hm seems so
14:41:46 <fizzie> It's the thing where you rub things.
14:41:53 <Vorpal> ah yes
14:41:55 <fizzie> Okay, that sounds a bit dirty too.
14:42:03 <Vorpal> well, not sure how that is related to USB cables
14:42:05 <fizzie> But you know the demonstration. Stick things to wall and all that.
14:42:27 <elliott> My cable is also stuck to the wall.
14:43:30 <fizzie> "While this power cable could be considered "affordable" in the grand scheme of things, we urge you not to judge it according to how much it costs. We invite you to compare this cable to your current favorite, and prepare to be pleasantly surprised!"
14:43:34 <Vorpal> I wonder why they actually put in those cables? Probably some cheap metal to maximise the profit margin.
14:43:42 <Vorpal> since anything more would be pointless
14:43:55 <elliott> fizzie: I never buy anything "affordable".
14:44:51 <fizzie> AIUI they buy regular cables that do whatever it is they want and then jazz them up. Probably whatever is easiest to get; I mean, it doesn't really matter whether the underlying cable costs $1.00 or $1.50 when you sell it for $400.
14:45:07 <Vorpal> Hm I should start a company selling overpriced resistors claiming that their margins are absurdly good or something. So people can replace the shoddy stock resistors in their hi-fi equipment!
14:45:21 <Vorpal> (warranty may be voided by that)
14:46:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, "AIUI"?
14:46:07 <fizzie> As I understand it.
14:46:09 <Vorpal> ah
14:47:32 <fizzie> Anyway, I'd like someone to go talk with their power company about replacing the miles of presumably really horrible power cables that are between their house and the power plant with some Raven cable goodness.
14:47:43 <elliott> Anus In Ugly Ink
14:48:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, :D
14:48:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suggest silver power cables. Why? Because silver conducts electricity better than copper
14:48:57 <Vorpal> wait, don't they use aluminium even for outdoor cables?
14:49:29 <Vorpal> bbiab
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14:52:41 <fizzie> The "CDA-101" in "12 AWG CDA-101 high purity CF-DCT-OFC conductors" means 99.99% pure copper. I'm not sure if "CF-DCT-OFC" means anything, all Google hits on it seem to be about these cables.
14:54:24 <fizzie> Anyway, they do use silver too.
14:54:38 <fizzie> "This is an entirely new design, utilizing my custom manufactured CFDCT-UP-OCC-Ag wire. This mono-crystal silver wire is drawn from specially sourced bar stock --"
15:02:18 <elliott> http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=8530 SCARREY.
15:03:48 <fizzie> "We await your FULL co-operation."
15:04:08 <elliott> [[
15:04:08 <elliott> Not implying anything about this particular case, however we do not preemptively null route unless requested to by the IP address assignee, or until there is an attack which is service affecting.
15:04:08 <elliott> -Chris
15:04:09 <elliott> ]]
15:04:14 <elliott> "Not implying anything, but [IMPLIES ANYTHING]"
15:06:13 <fizzie> Anyway, what does Anonymous@Afghanistan have against "cheapo VPS" listing site is what I'd like to know.
15:06:33 <fizzie> I suppose lowendbox have WRONGED them.
15:07:08 <elliott> fizzie: They're fans of the finer things in life. Like Locus cables.
15:08:04 <kallisti> elliott: so I discovered the emacs-style keybinding helper in XMonad.Util.EZConfig
15:08:24 <kallisti> this basically means that my keybind config has ceased being straightforward.
15:08:38 <kallisti> or well cease such in the near future.
15:08:46 <kallisti> *will
15:09:03 <elliott> $ wc -l ~/.xmonad/xmonad.hs
15:09:04 <elliott> 39 /home/elliott/.xmonad/xmonad.hs
15:09:59 <kallisti> $ cloc .xmonad/xmonad.hs | sprunge
15:10:00 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/CBWP
15:10:27 <elliott> cloc? noob
15:10:30 <elliott> sloccount 4 eva
15:10:33 <kallisti> ?
15:10:39 <kallisti> YAH OKAY MISTER WC
15:11:11 <elliott> [[
15:11:12 <elliott> Comment markers within strings or here-documents are treated as actual comment markers and not string literals. For example the following lines of C code
15:11:12 <elliott> printf(" /* ");
15:11:12 <elliott> for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) {
15:11:12 <elliott> a += i;
15:11:13 <elliott> }
15:11:15 <elliott> printf(" */ ");
15:11:17 <elliott> appear to cloc as two lines of C code (the lines with black text) and three lines of comments (the lines which have only red text--lines with both black and red text are treated as code).
15:11:20 <elliott> ]]
15:11:22 <elliott> cloc is the worst. Even if sloccount does that too, I'm not sure.
15:11:26 <kallisti> ....gross
15:11:39 <kallisti> some people on #xmonad have 1000+ line configs.
15:11:48 <kallisti> so, mine is still very very minimal
15:12:33 <kallisti> a lot of it is "laptop stuff"
15:12:45 <kallisti> I need to figure out how to lock my touchpad, in particular
15:13:41 <kallisti> but now I also have M-s <number> (or M-s M-<number>) set to swap the current workspace with the given workspace number.
15:13:44 <kallisti> which is very handy.
15:14:41 <fizzie> elliott: Gads, just about *everyone* keeps writing it "Linnode".
15:15:10 <kallisti> also, of course, epic screenshot code.
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15:15:28 <kallisti> most of it is keybindings.
15:15:36 <elliott> fizzie: More like BITnodeLOSSAGE.
15:15:39 <elliott> COIN.
15:15:53 <fizzie> Coinnode.
15:15:54 <elliott> Bitnode Lossagecoin: the best cyberpunk protagonist?
15:16:13 <elliott> "I'm Bitnode Lossagecoin, but you can call me BitCoin (my `HANDLE') for short."
15:17:32 <kallisti> elliott: some people use tabbed layouts. which makes me wonder what they get out of a tiling window manager in the first place.
15:17:57 <kallisti> nice customization, I guess?
15:18:46 <fizzie> elliott: Real handles are things like "Crash Override".
15:18:47 <elliott> Huh? There are plenty of tiling WMs with tabbing.
15:18:51 <elliott> PWM and ion come to mind.
15:19:13 <elliott> In fact, I think PWM and ion started the tiling WM renaissance.
15:19:18 <kallisti> hm, maybe I don't understand the functionality.
15:19:47 <kallisti> I imagine it as being a way to cycle through a bunch of maximized windows with a graphical indicator of each.
15:20:00 <kallisti> ...which is a lot like the way many people use a stacking window manager.
15:20:01 <elliott> Uh... You know browser tabs?
15:20:06 <kallisti> yes.
15:20:08 <kallisti> that's what I imagine it as.
15:20:18 <elliott> Yes, you get one set of tabs per tiled pane.
15:20:22 <elliott> (At least in ion.)
15:20:46 <elliott> (Of course, with ion the tiling layout doesn't change automatically; dwm started that.)
15:21:47 <kallisti> hm, I could probably find tabbed layouts useful for a few things
15:21:53 <kallisti> IM comes to mind.
15:22:10 <elliott> The only bearable IM clients have tabbing.
15:22:17 <elliott> (I say "s", it's actually just Pidgin.)
15:27:02 <elliott> http://www.ehow.com/how_2106418_build-space-ship.html
15:28:35 <Vorpal> <kallisti> I need to figure out how to lock my touchpad, in particular <-- I use synaptics to do that
15:28:49 <Vorpal> so I can use the trackpoint without having the touchpad active
15:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, nice how to
15:42:38 <itidus21> be careful.. everything that gets built by companies gets patented
15:42:51 <Vorpal> uh?
15:43:01 <itidus21> as in OS interfaces
15:43:11 <itidus21> application interfaces
15:43:14 <Vorpal> in reply to what?
15:43:24 <itidus21> ideas about tiling layouts
15:43:49 <itidus21> would be nice if you guys set prior art by discussing it thouhg
15:44:04 <itidus21> but.. does prior art even matter any more?
15:44:17 <Vorpal> *blink*
15:44:26 <Vorpal> itidus21, you ought to talk to elliott, I don't have time for this
15:44:56 <itidus21> you can pretend that the most important topic of GUIs today is not patents.. but it is
15:45:50 <elliott> Vorpal: /dev/null would work just as well.
15:46:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, there are no software patents where I live so
15:46:21 <Vorpal> (yet at least)
15:50:11 <elliott> itidus21: Many patents are taken out only to prevent other companies from taking out patents on the same thing and using them in a hostile manner against the original company.
15:50:58 <itidus21> i killed a PSU today.. i'm a 'tard
15:51:06 <elliott> And he changes the topic!
15:51:23 <itidus21> ok.. ill try to reply properly
15:52:14 <itidus21> knowing that, which i didn't know, should help me when the next patent web article makes my blood pressure rise
15:53:03 <itidus21> but i have a more cynical view of companies that they are all as hostile as possible within their constraints
15:53:24 <itidus21> ok i see hole in my logic
15:54:31 <elliott> There's a difference between being hostile and spending a bunch of money litigating against smaller companies without enough money to pay them.
15:56:58 <itidus21> i just can't imagine any business without conjuring visions of demons and devils and battlefield infantry and bullies criminals and grinches
15:57:11 <itidus21> basically
15:57:39 <elliott> Not being a therapist, I will decline to comment on the matter.
15:59:59 <itidus21> if i had to explain my mind among esoteric programmers i would say it is like a cellular automata which was charged with calculating 2+2 but due to some random interference it ended up being a methuselah of great complexity
16:00:33 <elliott> I guess it depends on your definition of complexity.
16:01:31 <itidus21> hmm.. humm.. theres a word i need to look up for that
16:02:24 <itidus21> basically anything which isn't still life or oscillators
16:03:17 <itidus21> there is something about a CA defying a static pattern which seems complex to me
16:04:49 <itidus21> i suppose percieved randomness to me is complexity
16:06:59 <itidus21> or maybe i am just reciting the ideas i got after i was directed to koglomerov complexity
16:07:13 <itidus21> (or kolgomerov)
16:07:34 <elliott> Kolgomorov.
16:07:41 <elliott> *kolmogorov
16:07:44 <elliott> *K
16:08:18 <fizzie> Koolkukumber.
16:08:18 <elliott> 20:45:21: <Friendship> Taneb: Whether it is TC or not is a philosophical question, but adding "meta" doesn't make it suddenly make sense.
16:08:19 <elliott> 20:45:33: <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Meta_Turing-complete
16:08:24 <elliott> 20:47:18: <Friendship> What the bleh
16:08:24 <elliott> 20:48:39: <Friendship> elliott innit here
16:08:33 <elliott> @tell Friendship "Meta Turing-complete" is just some badly-defined bullshit TehZ made up.
16:08:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:08:50 <elliott> @tell Friendship It can be made to make sense, but it's essentially a trivial concept when you do.
16:08:50 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:09:47 <elliott> @tell Friendship It's not really related to ℒ, though.
16:09:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:09:48 <itidus21> i can't accept who i really am.. i need delusions of grandeur because they give me hope
16:13:02 <itidus21> i'm the guy who likes brainfuck because it has an anarchistic name for a programming language.. and it has a novelty of only 8 instructions. but the actual mathematical interests of it are for the best part completely lost on me.
16:13:58 <itidus21> so if i were to accept that then i would have to admit that i never understand anything on topic in here
16:17:37 <itidus21> also amusing to me i am supposed to be an indie game devver on freenode but i am running windows xp, and my next chance to upgrade my graphics card is on my birthday when my relatives give me a few $ and hope noone comes to me saying "this is what you should do with ur money"
16:17:57 <itidus21> this is why i need my delusions :D
16:18:34 <elliott> Running Windows XP means you can't be an indie game developer, did you know?
16:18:46 <elliott> This is not actually true, but being unable to develop games does.
16:19:28 <itidus21> well.. i am on freenode and i have a slew of reasons for dodging linux
16:20:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think itidus21 knows that most indie game developers run Windows?
16:21:15 <itidus21> one is windows is easier for some value of easier..and i have all the apps i want already.. another lesser reason is my brother tends to take care of my hardware and networking and don't wanna alienate him
16:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't want to try to get inside the mind of itidus21.
16:21:53 <itidus21> i'm sort of offering insight into my mind .. sort of..
16:22:24 <itidus21> i suppose its like since my brother supplies my internet i am sort of following an organizational policy in the house
16:23:35 <itidus21> if i have to rant about something i thought i may as well meta-rant (new word just now)
16:24:31 <itidus21> so all this sets the backdrop upon which i leap from chatroom to chatroom ranting
16:25:31 <itidus21> a bit like a courteous dog who distributes his business equally within a radius of his neighbours
16:25:54 <elliott> How many channels are you in?
16:26:10 <itidus21> currently 4 + a non-irc
16:26:32 <elliott> You babble *five* times more than this in whole?
16:28:06 <itidus21> i got myself kicked out of #xna on efnet because i kept reacting every time this guy would post an off-topic link
16:29:35 <itidus21> itidus21: if you were really good you could get a room named after your company
16:29:35 <itidus21> itidus21: for example.. if houses started getting built with an ebay roo
16:29:35 <itidus21> itidus21: ^room
16:29:45 <itidus21> itidus21: i would love it if every home had a room named after me.. filled with things bought fromme
16:30:07 <itidus21> well that wasnt in irc but that was a rant from anoter chatroom
16:33:56 <elliott> Dear god, you're even more incoherent elsewhere.
16:34:38 <itidus21> i am most incoherent when taking notes of my ideas
16:34:43 <itidus21> hahahaha
16:36:20 <itidus21> illustrated thus http://pastebin.com/LV8XGM96
16:36:57 <elliott> The problem is that we don't want an illustration.
16:37:03 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:38:20 <itidus21> when writing to myself, i eventually realized i need a (human) editor.. because the task of editing proves more difficult a technical task than producing text
16:38:26 <Taneb> Hello
16:38:56 <elliott> hi Taneb
16:38:59 <elliott> please say something interesting
16:40:19 <itidus21> i think my ideas can be interesting.. they just need decoding..
16:40:48 <itidus21> the random text file i linked however.. i admit. thats not interesting
16:44:38 <itidus21> It seems that anything has nostalgic value for someone who used it in the past. Emphasis on nostalgic products is lazy. It is as if resigning themselves to the fact they can't create any new exciting experiences for the audience.
16:45:40 <itidus21> Or maybe life just gets more boring with age as one starts to be surrounded by patterns and routines.
16:46:07 <itidus21> And therefore it is not possible to entertain adults without nostalgia.
16:46:21 <itidus21> That would be a very depressing outlook.
16:47:00 <elliott> not as depressing as my outlook for this discussion
16:51:03 <Vorpal> itidus21, you should try being an optimist at some point. It is good for you.
16:52:23 <Vorpal> (or so I'm told)
16:52:47 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RandomRedirect i wonder why this exists
16:55:03 <itidus21> theres a bit of a vicious cycle from being weak and/or vulnerable.. it may be a reflection of the way the rich get richer..
16:55:34 <itidus21> whatever state one is in, it tends to amplify as life goes on
16:55:42 <Vorpal> itidus21, so fight against it!
16:57:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Please don't encourage itidus21 to think that IRC is a viable platform for life advice unless you want him to solicit it from IRC in the future.
16:57:41 <itidus21> lol
16:58:16 <elliott> I am not joking.
16:58:30 <Taneb> Iactus is a stupid game
17:02:18 <itidus21> i tried googling. what is Iactus?
17:03:01 <Taneb> It's a game played by Romans
17:03:03 <Taneb> It has dice
17:03:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Godwin&diff=prev&oldid=462494382 wmf legal what are you doing
17:04:51 <itidus21> hahahahaa
17:08:43 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATuring_tarpit&diff=81723221&oldid=80301027
17:09:29 <kallisti> holy crap I can see.
17:09:39 * kallisti got glasses (and contacts)
17:09:52 <kallisti> to fix my very mild-nearsightedness / astigmatism
17:10:00 <kallisti> YESSSSS
17:10:13 <kallisti> that was my main concern, you see.
17:10:18 <itidus21> maybe you will realize tidus is not to be taken seriously now....
17:10:32 <kallisti> nope. ever.
17:10:38 <kallisti> this channel is /serious/
17:10:40 <kallisti> /business/
17:11:20 <kallisti> itidus21: I have a challenge for you.
17:11:22 <kallisti> stop using Windows.
17:12:11 <itidus21> if i ever move out i'll consider a linux partition
17:14:02 <kallisti> why do you frame life decisions on your current residence?
17:14:09 <kallisti> I guess it would be inconvenient on a shared computer.
17:14:15 <kallisti> to have to reboot between two OSes
17:14:24 <kallisti> so nevermind.
17:14:49 <kallisti> just run Windows in virtualbox fullscreen. they'll never know the difference.
17:14:51 <itidus21> its not shared.. its just uhh...
17:15:32 <itidus21> complicted
17:15:35 * kallisti imagines Windows + VM layer + inevitable accumulation of viruses = uuuuuuuuuuugh
17:15:38 <kallisti> itidus21: k
17:16:05 <kallisti> so, not really a reason. got it.
17:16:41 <elliott> FSVO inevitable
17:16:53 <kallisti> elliott: dependent on user of course.
17:16:59 <kallisti> I never had viruses when I ran Windows.
17:17:01 <itidus21> its a bit like when a company has everyone in the office running the same OS
17:17:31 <itidus21> ok not exactly the same but
17:17:41 <kallisti> so your family is Windows zealots? :P
17:17:50 <kallisti> how do you survive?
17:19:42 <kallisti> well, "I never had viruses" is a bit subjective. I never had viruses that became a visible problem.
17:19:50 <itidus21> to be completely honest i think i stand to gain more as a windows user than the free software community stands to gain from my supporting it
17:19:59 <Taneb> Oh boy have I had viruses
17:20:17 <kallisti> itidus21: well.. so what? I have jackshit to give to the free software community
17:20:27 <kallisti> except, I guess, some free software. if they want it.
17:20:35 <kallisti> but no one wants my software.
17:20:50 <itidus21> so what do you use a free OS for? >:)
17:21:05 <kallisti> same thing people use Windows for, except it's better.
17:21:52 <itidus21> its probably better for the user who is prepared to go the extra yard in understanding their OS
17:22:02 <kallisti> people don't use linux necessarily because they want to contribute to open source software.
17:22:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:22:30 <kallisti> though, I do. it's just... like, it's an OS, man. you use it for things completely unrelated to OSS.
17:22:37 <elliott> hi oerjan
17:22:49 <itidus21> like sometimes when using an app i regret not having spent an entire day studying it's GUI.
17:22:51 <oerjan> hi elliott
17:22:58 <itidus21> sure it would be a dry study but it would pay off
17:23:14 <kallisti> itidus21: shell. man pages. good stuff.
17:23:38 <Vorpal> <itidus21> like sometimes when using an app i regret not having spent an entire day studying it's GUI. <-- *blink*
17:24:31 <itidus21> yeah.. i think if you just set aside an entire working day to study the GUI of an app... you would gain immensely in your efficiency using the app subsequently
17:24:31 <kallisti> though it's quite exhausting going from a tty to a everyday-usable linux system without a desktop environment. I had a bit of "configure overload" for a few days.
17:24:46 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh, you learn as you go with most GUIS
17:24:48 <Vorpal> GUIs*
17:24:56 <kallisti> However, if you use a DE (and especially if you use a distro like Ubuntu which handles a lot of things for you automatically), you don't have to worry about any of that.
17:25:10 <itidus21> but learn as you go isn't necessarily the best way to go
17:25:24 <Vorpal> frankly I don't use much GUI, mostly console. Only GUI programs I use majorly are gimp, inkscape, firefox, and lyx I think.
17:25:33 <Vorpal> most other stuff I don't use much
17:26:13 <Vorpal> oh and games, but for games every game has an unique GUI anyway, plus they tend to be simple to learn
17:26:16 <itidus21> firefox does have a very small set of menus.. but then it has reams of settings not contained in any windows form
17:26:31 <Vorpal> about:config yes
17:26:40 <elliott> The reason 90% of Firefox's settings are hidden is that you're not meant to tweak them.
17:26:42 <Vorpal> been in there many times
17:26:47 <Vorpal> mostly after a new release
17:27:23 <itidus21> but i wouldn't want to be the guy who would have to write a set of forms to access all those firefox settings
17:27:29 <Vorpal> (I'm not saying every change is for the worst, but with every major release there used to be one or two changes that annoyed me to hell)
17:27:54 <Vorpal> (with the modern release scheme, who knows)
17:27:59 <kallisti> configuring X, configuring xmonad, configuring mpd, configuring irssi, configuring my terminal, installing firefox manually (because fuck iceweasel), getting my wireless firmware to work, getting flash to work (64-bit flash player is apparently busted so I'm using 32-bit firefox with 32-bit flash), getting fonts to render well on my screen (thanks elliott)
17:28:11 <itidus21> at that stage it seems a config doesn't need a gui.
17:28:23 <kallisti> and... still need to fix my ACPI driver issue, and possibly some display driver issues (though I think my second monitor is just broken)
17:28:46 <kallisti> itidus21: you are correct!
17:28:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, nothing with with about:config, it is searchable
17:28:57 <Vorpal> kallisti, laptop or desktop?
17:29:13 <Vorpal> well, probably laptop due to ACPI
17:29:47 <Vorpal> kallisti, for linux laptops I can only recommend one brand, in fact one model lineup even. Thinkpad.
17:30:01 <kallisti> Vorpal: laptop
17:30:19 <kallisti> ...yes I'll go replace my $600 Dell Inspiron 15 with a Thinkpad right away!
17:30:27 <Vorpal> kallisti, go go go!
17:30:32 <elliott> "installing firefox manually (because fuck iceweasel)"
17:30:35 <elliott> kallisti: this is a bad idea, btw.
17:30:38 <kallisti> elliott: go on
17:30:44 <itidus21> its nice on windows
17:30:56 <elliott> and the flash player wouldn't be busted if you used the packagse
17:30:58 <elliott> *packages
17:30:59 <itidus21> it installs itself more or les
17:31:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, that is one cheap laptop btw
17:31:15 <elliott> itidus21: have you ever tried to install windows?
17:31:28 <kallisti> Vorpal: I bought it refurbished.
17:31:58 <kallisti> I just realized how weird "refurbished" is
17:32:09 <itidus21> elliott: not really.. i've left it to my brother...
17:32:13 <Vorpal> kallisti, mhm, my laptop (bought it new) cost about 11000 SEK, 1618 USD (in current conversion)
17:32:16 <kallisti> it looks like something `words would come up with.
17:32:20 <Vorpal> very good laptop though
17:32:44 <elliott> itidus21: So, by "it installs itself more or less", you mean "I don't realise that Ubuntu's installation has like 5 fewer steps than Windows and completes about five times as fast, but I'm going to bullshit anyway"?
17:32:56 <itidus21> i meant firefox not windows :D
17:33:19 <itidus21> i should have been more specific though
17:33:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well, ubuntu's install is trivial, apart from partitioning which is annoying (due to being overly dumbed down)
17:33:30 <kallisti> apt packages install themselves more-or-less-er than Windows installation EXEs.
17:33:50 <itidus21> i love my firefox
17:33:58 <elliott> Vorpal: s/annoying (due to being overly dumbed down)/trivial for everyone but Vorpal (due to being simplified)/
17:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried to help someone install the newest ubuntu recently, he /needed/ RAID 1. Wasn't available from the normal installer.
17:34:14 <kallisti> I was pleased with Debian's installed options
17:34:17 <elliott> itidus21: You mean as opposed to most Linux distrobutions, which include Firefox out of the box?
17:34:20 <elliott> *distrbutions
17:34:21 <elliott> *asodjiasid
17:34:36 <kallisti> it gave me a lot of control over how I wanted encryption to work specifically.
17:35:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not saying there shouldn't be a simple version. I'm saying there should be a button in one corner saying "give me sodding fdisk in a shell, because I know what I'm doing" kind of thing
17:35:17 <Vorpal> (or parted)
17:35:30 <itidus21> im probably not interested in the small details which kallisti wanted to configure.. i cant imagine what they are
17:35:40 <kallisti> itidus21: luckily there's also a guided mode
17:35:42 <kallisti> which does everything for you.
17:35:49 <kallisti> assuming you don't have a second OS you want to keep around.
17:36:09 <elliott> Vorpal: That option is called starting a shell and running fdisk.
17:36:17 <itidus21> maybe i mean vorpal im losing track
17:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott, right, which is not available if you didn't select to boot the live environment, but rather to just install.
17:36:39 <elliott> Anyway, can we stop trying to convince itidus21 to do something? He's stubborn enough when he's just spouting crap.
17:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott, besides the live cd lacks mdadm
17:36:50 <kallisti> elliott: I used twofish instead of AES. good or bad?
17:36:56 <kallisti> I don't know very much about encryption algos.
17:37:13 <elliott> Vorpal: So, you're complaining that you selected a simpler option, and thus couldn't execute the complex configuration you wanted?
17:37:37 <itidus21> elliott: i actually started mailing my australian health care card forms to avoid lectures about getting a job when taking in the form
17:37:41 <kallisti> but a perusal of their WP pages suggests that twofish has fewer potential (and practical) attacks
17:37:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm complaining it didn't tell me that it didn't say that it would be limited
17:37:59 <kallisti> that are known, anyway
17:38:01 <elliott> itidus21: Thank you for the information. I did not ask.
17:38:10 <Vorpal> kallisti, according to cryptsetup I use aes-cbc-essiv:sha256
17:38:12 <itidus21> well it backs up your point im very stubborn
17:38:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Partitioning is the first or second step; quit whining.
17:38:14 <Vorpal> on my laptop
17:38:19 <elliott> kallisti: Stupid.
17:38:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that computer was slow, so it took ages to reboot it.
17:38:38 <Vorpal> (I'm talking about a P4 here)
17:38:40 <kallisti> elliott: so twofish is more broken than AES?
17:38:42 <itidus21> i would rather invent a political philosophy where noone works than admit i need a job
17:38:54 <Vorpal> (with an ATI Rage video card! Wow)
17:39:13 <elliott> kallisti: Comparing the two is dishonest: people use AES, barely anyone uses Twofish.
17:39:24 <Vorpal> well, bbl
17:39:24 <kallisti> hm, wouldn't that be a good thing?
17:39:30 <elliott> If the two were equal, we'd expect AES to be much more broken.
17:39:35 <kallisti> ah I see.
17:39:39 <elliott> kallisti: That's called security by security.
17:39:40 <elliott> ...
17:39:41 <elliott> obscurity.
17:39:42 <elliott> Fuck words.
17:39:54 <elliott> AES: "All known attacks are computationally infeasible. For AES-128, the key can be recovered with a computational complexity of 2126.1 using bicliques. For biclique attacks on AES-192 and AES-256, the computational complexities of 2189.7 and 2254.4 respectively apply. Related-key attacks can break AES-192 and AES-256 with complexities 2176 and 299.5, respectively."
17:39:57 <elliott> Twofish: "Truncated differential cryptanalysis requiring roughly 251 chosen plaintexts.[1] Impossible differential attack that breaks 6 rounds out of 16 of the 256-bit key version using 2256 steps.[2]"
17:39:57 <kallisti> but it's bad in that fewer attacks could be uncovered.
17:40:15 <elliott> kallisti: What?
17:40:17 <itidus21> when people tell me to get a job i argue that their taxes pay for militaries who ultimately kill in their line of work which means they are indirectly killing more people than me ^_^;
17:40:38 <kallisti> elliott: er, I mean. what you were saying is that it doesn't make sense to compare them because less attempts to break twofish have been made than the more widely used AES.
17:40:57 <elliott> kallisti: Yes (or rather people won't be trying as hard).
17:41:08 <elliott> You should pick the most popular thing that isn't broken.
17:41:08 <itidus21> unless the person is intimidating.. then i probably won't argue that
17:41:48 <itidus21> or that a society that exists to produce work and workers is doomed to the inherent suffering of work
17:42:05 <kallisti> freelance. programming.
17:42:13 <elliott> that would require itidus21 to be able to program
17:42:20 <kallisti> also handle business stuff.
17:42:25 <kallisti> that's probably even more important.
17:43:03 <itidus21> i have ended up doing nothing...
17:43:11 <itidus21> seems to produce the least hiccups
17:43:19 <kallisti> it also requires you to be self-disciplined and make yourself work when no one is telling you to. (something I'm failing at right now!)
17:43:29 <elliott> Go and work so you stop propagating this.
17:43:40 <kallisti> ...it's spring break. ;_;
17:43:52 <kallisti> I should be drunk right now. at 12:43
17:44:09 <kallisti> in like, Florida, or something. whatever people stereotypically do on their spring breaks.
17:44:26 <itidus21> on a philosophical level i wonder if i am trapped by my family, or trapped by myself
17:44:32 <kallisti> both
17:44:58 <kallisti> mostly yourself, because you've let these things become influences.
17:45:04 <kallisti> but to a degree you can't completely control what influences you.
17:45:30 <elliott> kallisti: This is not productive.
17:45:36 <kallisti> elliott: IT TOTALLY IS
17:45:48 <kallisti> oh wait
17:45:52 <kallisti> I'm doing this job in Haskell.
17:45:58 <kallisti> so like, it will be enjoyable.
17:46:08 <kallisti> what the fuck am I doing here?
17:46:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges?uselang=qqx
17:46:30 <itidus21> maybe this is why a lot of philosophy ends up chewing the question of fate/destiny/karma/free will/free won't/determinism/non-determinism/soft-determiism/certainty/chance/inevitability
17:46:34 <kallisti> (other benefits of freelancing: on some projects, you get to choose your language of choice)
17:46:49 <kallisti> itidus21: as far as I can tell it's basically an unsolved problem.
17:46:58 <kallisti> but I think "free will" is ill-defined
17:47:04 <itidus21> it's just there
17:47:14 <itidus21> everyone talks about it
17:47:49 <elliott> kallisti: This is still not productive.
17:47:59 <kallisti> I took an intro to philosophy class, so I'm like totally an expert, man.
17:48:03 <itidus21> theres the psychic industry set up around it
17:48:29 <itidus21> and self-fulfilling prophecies explored in macbeth
17:48:51 <itidus21> and religious prophecies
17:49:21 <itidus21> however..
17:49:51 <kallisti> I think that even though you're obviously not in perfect control of your circumstances or even your own behaviors, it doesn't make you totally unable to do anything about it. Some people trap themselves in this idea that they have no control.
17:50:04 <itidus21> i can't give you the advice that my advice is bad advice because it's a paradox
17:50:21 <kallisti> and I wonder to what degree that's inevitable. still, it's better to try than to not try, because, since we don't know the answer to that question, you may end up succeeding.
17:50:22 <itidus21> the best thing for me to do would be to just cease giving advice
17:50:30 <kallisti> whereas you'll never succeed if you just stay trapped.
17:51:24 <elliott> kallisti: Please stop already.
17:51:43 <kallisti> elliott: I like how you blame me for this conversation
17:51:53 <kallisti> itidus21 is like the fool who can't help himself.
17:52:07 <kallisti> and I'm the willful perpetrator.
17:52:32 <elliott> kallisti: There's a saying you might have heard before that goes "don't feed the trolls".
17:52:38 <elliott> I think you'll find a comparable principle applies here.
17:52:40 <elliott> Stop feeding.
17:52:56 <kallisti> itidus21 is troll?
17:53:09 <kallisti> is a troll just "source of things I don't like on the internet"
17:53:28 <elliott> Note the word "comparable", which is not a typo for "identical".
17:53:29 <kallisti> I thought it had a specific meaning. like someone who manipulates an online crowd to illicit some kind of negative response.
17:53:33 <kallisti> ah okay.
17:53:35 <kallisti> fair enough.
17:54:51 <itidus21> cheers everyone.
17:55:34 <itidus21> c[_]
17:56:17 <kallisti> is that...
17:56:19 <kallisti> bomberman?
17:56:40 <itidus21> it's intended as a cross section of a mug
17:56:44 <kallisti> oh... yes
17:56:45 <kallisti> right
17:56:50 <kallisti> it looks like bomberman waving at me
17:56:57 <kallisti> the c is his little knubby hand-appendage.
17:56:58 <itidus21> C[_]
17:58:11 <kallisti> the life of a bomberman must be difficult, he has no fingers. all he can do is miraculously spawn explosives and manipulate them with his little ball-hands and ball-feet.
17:58:58 <itidus21> ,--[..]--.
17:59:39 <itidus21> ^bf ,--[..]--.!test
17:59:39 <fungot> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...
18:00:21 <kallisti> > repeat 'r'
18:00:21 <lambdabot> "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
18:01:33 <quintopia> ^bf ,--[.-]--.!z
18:01:33 <fungot> xwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"! ..<CTCP>
18:01:37 <kallisti> elliott: do you have sane fullscreen handling on your xmonad config?
18:01:43 <quintopia> BLINKING THORN
18:01:49 <kallisti> I've got my set up to unfullscreen when the window is out of focus on screen.
18:03:08 <kallisti> from XMonad.Layout.Fullscreen. But XMonad.Hooks.EwmhDesktops has similar fullscreen handling but with less flexibility (it's not dependent on how the layout handles the fullscreen message)
18:03:09 <quintopia> what is the value of blinking thorn? how can i type blinking thorn myself?
18:03:21 <kallisti> quintopia: wat
18:04:38 <elliott> kallisti: Fullscreen howso?
18:05:05 <quintopia> kallisti: the last character of fungot's output above appears in urxvt as a blinking thorn
18:05:06 <fungot> quintopia: so on some occasions, the tree fell an hour ago. :p the cost is only 2.5e (!) to set the car of the list tail
18:05:21 <elliott> It's just a bold thorn.
18:05:28 <elliott> Ctrl+Bþ, then.
18:05:46 <quintopia> þ
18:05:48 <quintopia> nop
18:05:52 <quintopia> that's a bold thorn
18:05:59 <quintopia> fungot's is BLINKING
18:06:00 <fungot> quintopia: i'm building a portable cml library with some improvements, though. it would be :) either way, you can have the gui built in with ultraedit. i hear they don't blow up people with them, though
18:06:16 <kallisti> elliott: well by default fullscreen leaves things like xmobar visible
18:06:22 <elliott> quintopia: Oh, there's also an invert thing.
18:06:29 <elliott> quintopia: Earlier in the line.
18:06:34 <elliott> Just check the raw log.
18:06:39 <kallisti> unless you do fullscreenFloat or whatever it's called, or use EwmhDesktops fullscreen hook, or set up Layout.Fullscreen
18:06:47 <quintopia> where is the raw log?
18:07:05 <elliott> kallisti: I prefer it like that.
18:07:10 <quintopia> if its in the topic, the topic is too long for me to see it
18:07:10 <elliott> quintopia: See topic.
18:07:16 <elliott> Type /topic, then.
18:07:24 <quintopia> gah you people
18:07:25 <kallisti> I almost do... except that it would be annoying if I'm trying to watch a movie on an external display.
18:07:28 <quintopia> making me effort
18:07:37 <elliott> You're the one asking how to create a blinking thorn.
18:07:49 <elliott> kallisti: You could configure those displays separately.
18:07:54 <kallisti> yes, indeed.
18:08:03 -!- tzxn3 has joined.
18:08:03 <kallisti> but I don't really fullscreen anything except video... so....
18:08:11 <quintopia> elliott: i've also requested in the past that log link be kept near the beginning of the topic
18:08:19 <kallisti> and I can switch focus to regain visibility of xmobar if I need it.
18:08:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
18:09:17 <kallisti> quintopia: why? don't you know anything about proper information structuring? least important comes first.
18:09:53 <quintopia> oic
18:09:57 <quintopia> the raw log isnt helping
18:09:59 <kallisti> yep. you learn that in collegez
18:10:02 <kallisti> you should go.
18:10:05 <quintopia> .¿½
18:10:09 <quintopia> hmm
18:10:23 <quintopia> now the upside-down question mark 1/2 is bold and blinking
18:10:23 <elliott> quintopia: I much prefer the topic to be first.
18:10:29 <elliott> Before the auxiliary links.
18:10:30 <elliott> So deal with it.
18:10:33 <quintopia> elliott: the topic is not a real topic
18:10:34 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,].[<.]!tognuf
18:10:53 <elliott> quintopia: Keep whinin'.
18:11:01 <quintopia> also, why is it that i have to deal with your preferences?
18:11:32 <kallisti> elliott: I am disagree for two reasons: the links are fairly small, whereas the rest of the topic is typically large and useless. pieces of actual information should go first for quick reference.
18:11:36 <elliott> Because I set 90% of the topics.
18:11:45 -!- quintopia has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources. | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
18:11:46 <elliott> You could also just bookmark http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:11:52 <quintopia> i set this one
18:12:01 <elliott> You left the other "important" piece of information.
18:12:03 <kallisti> what about new members?
18:12:14 <quintopia> ¿½
18:12:14 <kallisti> clearly having the links first is better in any way you can think of (other than "I don't like it")
18:12:27 <quintopia> ¿½
18:12:35 <quintopia> ¿½
18:12:36 <kallisti> even, maybe, like, I don't know. a description of the channel.
18:12:42 <quintopia> ¿½
18:12:46 <quintopia> hmm
18:12:46 <kallisti> we had one of those once didn't we?
18:12:47 <elliott> kallisti: ChanServ sends such a description.
18:12:51 <elliott> As does `welcome.
18:12:55 <kallisti> true.
18:12:58 <quintopia> ¿½
18:13:01 <quintopia> found it
18:13:03 <kallisti> quintopia: wtf are you doing.
18:13:09 -!- elliott has set topic: It's worth noting that no useful language can remove all undefined behaviour; Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, and its applications to computer science, tell us that in general you can't determine whether a method will complete, or whether a program can run indefinitely without running out of resources. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
18:13:11 <quintopia> þ
18:13:26 <quintopia> elliott: it's ^f that makes it blink
18:13:43 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!tognuf
18:13:43 <fungot> fungot
18:13:45 <elliott> Maybe for you.
18:13:57 <quintopia> elliott: the other piece of information is unimportant
18:14:01 <quintopia> :P
18:14:04 <kallisti> also because many topic bars cut off the topic, you need to use /topic to view the large text. whereas if the links were at the front you could simply scan the topic bar to get the useful information.
18:14:20 <fizzie> quintopia: ^F makes it flash.
18:14:34 <kallisti> except it's usually disabled because it's terrible.
18:14:39 <kallisti> hi
18:14:48 <elliott> kallisti: Anyone who cares about the logs will know where the logs are.
18:14:54 <quintopia> terrible? you mean awesome.
18:15:00 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!tognuf gol`
18:15:01 <fungot> `log fungot
18:15:10 <itidus21> heh.. too clever you are
18:15:12 <elliott> There was an fairly long time that the logs were rarely in the topic to start with.
18:15:39 <HackEgo> No output.
18:15:55 <itidus21> oh.. spoke too soon
18:16:03 <kallisti> ^help
18:16:08 <kallisti> :(
18:16:22 <fizzie> ^help
18:16:22 <quintopia> i would prefer the textual part of the topic to be short, personally. then it doesnt matter where the link is. and it's usually tldr anyway
18:16:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:16:24 <elliott> `Why don't bots listen to messages with spaces in front?!
18:16:24 <elliott> :(
18:16:31 <kallisti> I know right?
18:16:34 <kallisti> it would make loops so much better
18:16:39 <kallisti> (read: possible)
18:16:39 <fizzie> (Just checking what it was.)
18:17:21 <quintopia> `log
18:17:24 <HackEgo> 2005-12-15.txt:21:27:42: <ihope> > error "Testing" :: Int
18:17:40 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!tognu[f] gol`
18:17:40 <fungot> `log ]f[ungot
18:17:44 <HackEgo> grep: missing terminating ] for character class
18:17:47 <itidus21> lol
18:18:06 <itidus21> ok that fucks my head
18:18:22 <kallisti> must be why it's called brainfuck. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
18:18:29 <itidus21> :((
18:18:31 <kallisti> oh
18:18:32 <kallisti> grep
18:18:33 <kallisti> nevermind
18:18:42 <fizzie> ^rev is a command for that
18:18:43 <fungot> taht rof dnammoc a si
18:18:49 <kallisti> ZE CONTACTS, ZEY DO NOTHING.
18:18:55 <quintopia> must be why it's called grep. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
18:19:04 <kallisti> HA
18:19:08 <itidus21> ^bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!tognu]f[ gol`
18:19:08 <fungot> `log [f]ungot
18:19:22 <HackEgo> 2008-10-26.txt:22:05:51: <comex> fungot: If your response to this message makes sense as a set of obligations to impose on me in Agora, I pledge to follow them.
18:20:37 <kallisti> oh wait it was brainfuck
18:20:44 <kallisti> nevermind, terrible joke still holds.
18:20:50 * kallisti has excellent reading comprehension skills.
18:20:58 <itidus21> the [] in reverse...
18:21:03 <itidus21> its so weird
18:21:16 <kallisti> > reverse "[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]"
18:21:17 <lambdabot> "][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]["
18:21:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
18:21:35 <kallisti> hmmm, only two characters off from being a palindrome
18:21:40 <quintopia> yes. individual characters are not reversible. so sorry
18:21:44 <kallisti> > reverse "][][][][][][][][][][][][][]["
18:21:45 <lambdabot> "[][][][][][][][][][][][][][]"
18:21:47 <kallisti> oh snap
18:21:52 <kallisti> only 2 characters off from being a palindrome
18:21:57 <kallisti> > reverse "[][][][][][][][][][][][][]"
18:21:58 <lambdabot> "][][][][][][][][][][][][]["
18:22:07 <fizzie> ^rev [][][] why you no use the homebrewn commands
18:22:07 <fungot> sdnammoc nwerbemoh eht esu on uoy yhw ][][][
18:22:08 <kallisti> HELP
18:22:19 <quintopia> ^rev [][][
18:22:19 <fungot> [][][
18:22:23 <quintopia> BAM
18:22:47 <itidus21> ok i think i just thought up a brainfuck variation
18:22:53 <itidus21> brainfuck written in reverse
18:22:58 <kallisti> reversefuck?
18:23:02 <itidus21> it exists?
18:23:05 <itidus21> hehe
18:23:06 <kallisti> yeah that's a thing I believe.
18:23:08 <itidus21> cool
18:23:15 <itidus21> its a very painful thing evidently
18:23:16 <kallisti> doesn't mean you can find some minor detail to vary!
18:23:24 <kallisti> *can't
18:23:30 <itidus21> very very painful
18:23:31 <kallisti> oh
18:23:35 <quintopia> fizzie: there needs to be an upside-down homebrewn command that upside-downs the input.
18:23:36 <kallisti> reversefuck reverses operator meanings
18:24:06 <kallisti> so < is >; - is +; . is ,; etc
18:24:26 <elliott> ^scramble homebrewn
18:24:26 <fungot> hmbenwreo
18:24:30 <itidus21> ahh.. well i am talking about a brainfuck interpreter which reverses the input program..
18:24:35 <itidus21> but doesn't change its meanings
18:24:40 <kallisti> yes
18:24:42 <kallisti> I understood. :>
18:24:51 <itidus21> dear god that would ruin my brain
18:24:58 <fizzie> That's the sort of thing that will draw bricks out of Phantom_Hoover.
18:25:06 <kallisti> itidus21: just like.... read it backwards?
18:25:10 <kallisti> I don't think it would be that difficult
18:25:18 <kallisti> especially since each token is only one character
18:25:21 <itidus21> thats where you are wrong
18:25:23 <kallisti> reverse C would be much worse.
18:26:20 <itidus21> ^rev ,[.,]
18:26:20 <fungot> ],.[,
18:26:58 <itidus21> so.. from the wiki... Cat as ,[.,] becomes ... ],.[,
18:27:10 <kallisti> yes, amazing.
18:27:31 <itidus21> i do not think that is easy but then i couldn't write cat without thinking hard
18:28:19 <itidus21> ^rev >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
18:28:19 <fungot> ]->++++<[++++++++>>>.+++..+++++++.+<]->++++<[+++++++>.<]->++++++++<[+++++++++>
18:28:19 <kallisti> > (`replicateM` ['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a' .. 'z']) =<< [0..]
18:28:19 <itidus21> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
18:28:20 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Monad.replicateM' [infixl 9] of a section
18:28:20 <lambdabot> must h...
18:28:27 <kallisti> > (`replicateM` (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a' .. 'z'])) =<< [0..]
18:28:29 <lambdabot> ["","A","B","C","D","E","F","G","H","I","J","K","L","M","N","O","P","Q","R"...
18:28:32 <kallisti> ^rev (`replicateM` (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a' .. 'z'])) =<< [0..]
18:28:32 <fungot> ]..0[ <<= ))]'z' .. 'a'[ ++ ]'Z'..'A'[( `Metacilper`(
18:28:40 <itidus21> oops
18:28:41 <kallisti> metacilper
18:28:42 <itidus21> linebreak
18:29:07 <fizzie> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!longcat is only as long as the tape
18:29:07 <fungot> longcat is only as long as the tape
18:29:10 <kallisti> reverse Haskell is a legit esolang. look at that.
18:29:20 <itidus21> ^rev >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
18:29:20 <fungot> .+>>.--------.------.+++.<<<<.---<]->+++++++++<[++++++++++>>>.<]->++++<[++++++++>>>.+++..+++++++.+<]->++++<[+++++++>.<]->++++++++<[+++++++++>
18:29:35 <fizzie> (Sadly, the tape is longer than the IRC line.)
18:30:00 <itidus21> theres hello world in reverse interpreted bf
18:30:15 <kallisti> amazing
18:30:20 <kallisti> however, is it Turing complete?
18:30:41 <kallisti> you would need...
18:30:42 <kallisti> some kind of...
18:30:44 <kallisti> isomorphism
18:30:49 <fizzie> kallisti: It's probably Gnirut complete.
18:30:56 <kallisti> hmmm
18:31:02 <kallisti> awww yes! I see why.
18:31:04 <itidus21> it is nothing more than doing ^rev on the input stream to bf
18:31:13 <kallisti> hmm...
18:31:17 <kallisti> let me think about that.
18:31:23 <itidus21> at least what i have in mind
18:31:38 <kallisti> sounds a bit too hand-wavey for a real proof, don't you think?
18:32:29 <kallisti> I think we need to write a compiler
18:32:35 <kallisti> that translates to a TC language
18:33:07 <kallisti> no, that wouldn't be enough
18:33:17 <itidus21> i guess the best way to write in such a language would be to write a bf program.. then run ^rev on it
18:33:41 <kallisti> yes, and then you could plug it into the compiler
18:33:43 <itidus21> and then pass it to the interpreter which would unrev it and interpret it as normal bf
18:33:52 <itidus21> humm
18:33:57 <kallisti> itidus21: yes, that's a compiler.
18:34:09 <kallisti> a compiler and an interpreter.
18:34:19 -!- EduardKhil has joined.
18:34:23 <kallisti> INTERESTING STUFF
18:34:45 <kallisti> by far the most interesting development in esoteric programming languages in some time.
18:35:11 <kallisti> as gauged by this channel.
18:36:37 <kallisti> itidus21: you should write a reference implementation.
18:37:06 <itidus21> one interesting property of it is that some subset of bf programs would also be valid bf after reversal.. and some wouldn't
18:37:40 <elliott> The subset is those without loops.
18:38:01 <elliott> Except actually it can never move the tape pointer.
18:38:05 <elliott> Unless you use a both-ends infinite tape.
18:38:09 <kallisti> as an /interesting variant/, you could also mirror the program
18:38:14 <kallisti> so that brackets are oriented the same way.
18:38:35 <itidus21> its just that its so fiendishly unintuitive to read bf in reverse... got my attention
18:38:47 <fizzie> kallisti: And the tails of commas point the other direction.
18:38:52 <kallisti> fizzie: oh right
18:39:00 <kallisti> also < and > would be backwards
18:39:01 <kallisti> nevermind
18:39:44 <itidus21> i was shocked that ^rev [a] =/= [a]
18:39:55 <itidus21> i expected it to be for some reason
18:40:01 <fizzie> There should be a law.
18:40:34 <fizzie> ^rev (maybe the other parens behave better)
18:40:34 <fungot> )retteb evaheb snerap rehto eht ebyam(
18:40:36 <kallisti> itidus21: probably your brain tricked you into thinking [ and ] retain the same appearance if reversed.
18:40:38 <fizzie> Oh noes.
18:41:00 <fizzie> On the other hand: retteb evaheb snerap.
18:41:05 <kallisti> fizzie: interesting development
18:41:19 <fizzie> Sneeeerap.
18:41:27 <itidus21> kallisti: hence the painful aspect
18:41:29 <kallisti> but yeah if you ignore concrete syntax, then any reversed bf program is also a valid bf program.
18:41:36 <kallisti> hmm...
18:41:37 <kallisti> well, no
18:41:46 <kallisti> you have to reverse the semantics of the bracket operators still.
18:42:19 <fizzie> You have to REVERSE THE POLARITY.
18:42:45 <fizzie> What were the nonsensical bfjoust polarity terms, again?
18:42:54 <kallisti> ...uh, just polarity
18:42:59 <itidus21> bill murray?
18:43:07 <elliott> fizzie: Sieve and kettle.
18:43:11 <fizzie> Right.
18:43:20 <kallisti> as the bracket operators are the only ones dependent on the positioning of other tokens..
18:43:32 <fizzie> Kettle calling the sieve holey.
18:44:02 <kallisti> if you had a bf-like language (linear stream of operators) where none of the tokens were dependent in that way then a reversal of the program source would yield a valid program in the original language.
18:45:07 <kallisti> FOR EXAMPLE DUPDOG
18:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooooh, Darths & Droids actually changed the name of a major character.
18:46:21 <kallisti> oh hey, here's an interesting idea. adding operations that are dependent on the locations of other operations. this would effect the semantics of those operations after source reversal.
18:46:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I read Darths & Droids.
18:47:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Ooooh, brainfuck derivatives.
18:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> grarfl flagaaargigna
18:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes
18:47:33 <kallisti> so for example in a language that's a superset of dupdog, a [ could ignore all source up to ]
18:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How many comics is it.
18:47:46 <elliott> kallisti: What would ] do?
18:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> 697.
18:47:59 <kallisti> hm, well, nothing yet.
18:48:02 <kallisti> it doesn't necessarily have to
18:48:07 <kallisti> as you still have different semantics upon reversal.
18:48:11 <kallisti> but it could do something as well.
18:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is a lot.
18:48:56 <kallisti> ^rev [blah blah blah [] blah] [ blah
18:48:56 <fungot> halb [ ]halb ][ halb halb halb[
18:49:09 <kallisti> ^rev [blah blah blah [] blah] ] blah
18:49:09 <fungot> halb ] ]halb ][ halb halb halb[
18:49:34 <fizzie> You keep talking, but all I hear is "halb halb halb".
18:49:51 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:50:06 <kallisti> ^rev [] blah [] blah [] blah
18:50:06 <fungot> halb ][ halb ][ halb ][
18:50:21 <kallisti> ^rev ][ blah ][ blah ][ blah
18:50:21 <fungot> halb [] halb [] halb []
18:50:29 <kallisti> conditional execution.
18:50:34 <kallisti> ...kind of.
18:51:45 <kallisti> the condition is dependent on the initial condition.
18:51:50 <kallisti> ....that makes no sense.
18:52:40 <kallisti> yeah it's conditional execution, it's just that there's no input.
18:53:16 <kallisti> the input is the source.
18:55:40 <kallisti> elliott: a ] could ignore source up to (and including) a [
18:56:39 <elliott> Up to and excluding is funner.
18:57:17 <kallisti> ha, yes.
18:57:28 <kallisti> variant joke esolang.
18:58:46 <kallisti> though there's no reason to have two characters at that point
18:58:49 <kallisti> could just use "
18:58:59 <kallisti> since they do the same thing.
18:59:17 <kallisti> hmmm, well no
18:59:35 <elliott> Did you know that maybe id const = flip maybe?
18:59:49 <kallisti> :t maybe id const
18:59:49 <lambdabot> forall a. Maybe a -> a -> a
18:59:51 <kallisti> :t flip maybe
18:59:52 <lambdabot> forall b a. (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b
18:59:57 <kallisti> no...
19:00:14 <kallisti> perhaps I'm missing something.
19:00:34 <elliott> Erm.
19:00:38 <elliott> maybe id const = flip fromMaybe, rather.
19:00:59 <kallisti> oh. no.
19:01:17 <kallisti> but it's pretty clear.
19:01:33 <kallisti> so the difference is that ]] and [[ do not do the same thing as ""
19:02:05 <kallisti> and subsequently ]stuff], [stuff[, and "stuff"
19:02:20 <kallisti> but if your brackets are balanced I think they operate the same way.
19:02:33 <elliott> Well, no, if it's excluding, then you immediately hit another ].
19:02:35 <kallisti> ..also non-nested
19:02:58 <elliott> ]stuff[blah]abc -> [blah] -> abc
19:02:58 <kallisti> elliott: it's not excluding.
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> ha, yes.
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> variant joke esolang.
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> though there's no reason to have two characters at that point
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> could just use "
19:03:04 <elliott> <kallisti> since they do the same thing.
19:03:07 <elliott> I was pointing out that they don't.
19:03:21 <kallisti> oh sure.
19:04:22 <kallisti> I like this.
19:04:29 <kallisti> languages without the need for balanced brackets? awww yeah.
19:04:49 <kallisti> I'm still pondering the substitute instruction. called s for now.
19:05:01 <kallisti> seems a bit too easy.
19:05:22 <kallisti> (also makes efficient implementation trickier)
19:07:27 <kallisti> hm, another good thing
19:07:39 <kallisti> well actually it's not strictly necessary
19:07:58 <kallisti> having two operators that cycle character meanings.
19:08:05 <kallisti> one in one direction and one in the other.
19:08:30 <kallisti> but you can emulate one with the repetition of the other.
19:09:20 <kallisti> but having two cycle operators that cycle in different ways could be interesting.
19:11:13 <kallisti> hm yeah you could have one that transposes abcd -> dabc like the current one
19:11:21 <kallisti> and another that works like: abcd -> badc
19:11:46 <itidus21> something has occured to me
19:12:50 <kallisti> go on.
19:13:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:13:27 <itidus21> "[][]"... encounter [ "a" .. seek rightmost ] "b" .. a][b .. encounter ] "c" .. seek closest [ "d" .. acdb
19:13:31 <Taneb> Hello!
19:13:36 <elliott> hi Taneb
19:13:58 <itidus21> im not sure how well it would work in practice
19:14:09 <kallisti> we're not really concerned about practice here.
19:14:11 <itidus21> my poor brain
19:14:38 <kallisti> I feel that seeking the rightmost ] would lead to massive program erasal
19:14:53 <kallisti> in most circumstances
19:14:57 <kallisti> I like the symmetry I think
19:15:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Were you around when ircbrowse was still alive?
19:15:04 <elliott> Those were some good logs.
19:15:30 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
19:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> They were dead when I turned up.
19:15:37 <elliott> Duuude.
19:15:40 <elliott> You should'a been there.
19:15:45 <itidus21> under this scheme [][][] becomes [()()]
19:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I was like "where are the nice formatted logs" and the site was like "no".
19:15:49 <elliott> Should'a been there.
19:15:58 <kallisti> itidus21: wat
19:16:08 <kallisti> what are () and ()
19:16:38 <itidus21> err.. rather.. [][][] becomes [[][]]
19:16:57 <kallisti> it's entirely dependent on the rest of the program though
19:16:59 <kallisti> due to the rightmostness
19:17:12 <kallisti> and chances are you're just going to erase a bunch of valuable logic.
19:17:23 <kallisti> unless, you know, that's what you wanted to do. I guess.
19:17:37 <itidus21> well i have stopped thinking about bf.. and off in my own thoughts..
19:17:49 <kallisti> ...okay.
19:17:56 <itidus21> maybe im falling behind though :D
19:17:58 <kallisti> I'm not sure what bf has to do with anything.
19:18:30 <itidus21> nothing. my mistake
19:19:11 <kallisti> so yeah I think [ and ] and two kinds of cycle could be enough for some sort of TCness maybe.
19:19:17 <kallisti> without being too obvious.
19:19:57 <kallisti> looping is still tricky though
19:20:05 -!- monqy has joined.
19:20:23 <kallisti> but it's at least possible to be non-terminating by duplicating the source code.
19:22:18 <itidus21> in general what i'm taking from this is the existence of the very esoteric "]a[" construct.. and its friends "[a[", "]a]", "[a", "a[", "]a", "a]"
19:22:35 <itidus21> it all seems very peculiar
19:22:53 <elliott> hi monqy
19:22:56 <elliott> we're having an itidus21 marathon
19:23:04 <kallisti> and yet those constructs are completely equivalent to some bijective mapping to other, more eye-pleasing characters. the concrete representation doesn't mean much.
19:23:20 <kallisti> elliott: shut up I am making valuable progress.
19:23:52 <elliott> no
19:23:53 <elliott> you're not
19:24:11 <monqy> gi
19:24:12 <monqy> hi
19:24:20 <Taneb> Hmm...
19:24:25 <kallisti> elliott: are you sure?
19:24:39 <elliott> @tell oerjan [2007] <oerjan> by using the FingerTree module which implements lazily concatenated sequences
19:24:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:24:41 <Taneb> I'm going to try doing what itidus21 does, see what it reveals about myself
19:24:55 <elliott> @ask oerjan are you sure? "(it is the same as Data.Sequence, but less restricted)" implies not, since Seq is strict
19:24:55 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:25:24 <Taneb> Turing-complete programming languages, they map on to eachother.
19:25:25 <monqy> less restricted
19:25:35 <kallisti> it isn't stricted twice
19:25:36 <kallisti> good good.
19:25:53 <Taneb> However, if you convert a bf program into unlambda, and back again, you could end up with a completely different program
19:26:07 <monqy> Taneb: wow you sound just like itidus21
19:26:11 <elliott> so one could envision a... mode of brainfuck which allows the user to construct experiences
19:26:12 <elliott> hehe
19:26:15 <elliott> just ignore me...
19:26:20 <elliott> how did my itidus impression go
19:26:24 <kallisti> elliott: good good
19:26:28 <elliott> i think i did better than Taneb
19:26:38 <kallisti> the hehe seems out of place
19:26:43 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm not good at doing the not capitals
19:26:43 <kallisti> but the rest is good.
19:27:03 <elliott> Maybe it should have been a "hmm".
19:27:05 <itidus21> `pastelogs itidus hehe
19:27:15 <elliott> `pastelogs <itidus.*hehe
19:27:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23993
19:27:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7872
19:27:53 <elliott> kallisti: See, not out of place at all.
19:28:13 <kallisti> elliott: just the moment of usage I guess.
19:28:22 <Taneb> How does the regexes for pastelogs work?
19:28:25 <kallisti> elliott: also how dare you belittle the important field in which I'm progressing.
19:28:36 <kallisti> advacing the study of dupdogoids.
19:28:54 <kallisti> (real term. I'm an authority on the subject)
19:29:34 <monqy> ok
19:30:14 <elliott> Taneb: Regexly.
19:30:18 <elliott> It's grep -P to be precise.
19:30:43 <kallisti> best grep
19:31:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:31:19 <kallisti> it kind of blows my mind that I have little squishy lenses stuck to my eyeballs throughout the day.
19:31:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:31:56 <monqy> contacts scare me and glasses are cooler anyway but my eyesight is good anyway
19:32:24 <kallisti> monqy: mine is mostly good. I got both to correct some slight near-sightedness.
19:32:25 <elliott> my eyesight is good too, people with bad eyesight are lame
19:32:38 <kallisti> but I could have easily saved money and gone without
19:32:40 <elliott> the way to have good eyesight is to start staring at computer screens really young so you get used to it
19:32:45 <elliott> "worked for me"
19:32:47 <kallisti> elliott: yep
19:32:50 <kallisti> good call
19:33:00 * kallisti notes that he had perfect vision up until about 2 years ago.
19:33:04 <kallisti> YOU MAY BE NEXT, ELIOT.
19:33:05 <elliott> you failed
19:34:03 <monqy> the one upside I can see to having bad eyesight is then you can get sunglasses that aren't dorky
19:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I wanted glasses until I passed through the hipster nerd phase in my life.
19:34:36 <elliott> just stab them lightly
19:34:59 <kallisti> contacts are nice because you don't have to make sure they stay on your face, and they have better peripheral vision.
19:35:09 <kallisti> but I do like the way glasses look. so I'll likely just wear whichever.
19:35:35 <monqy> wear both "doublegood eyesight forever"
19:35:47 <itidus21> i think plato would be in favor of languages where a curve with it's endpoints on the right side is a left delimeter, and a curve with it's endpoints on the left side is a right delimeter
19:36:07 <monqy> me too
19:39:46 <kallisti> monqy: I actually did earlier today.
19:39:55 <kallisti> MY EYESIGHT WAS TWICE AS GOOD.
19:39:56 <monqy> was it doublegood
19:39:58 <monqy> was it forever
19:40:03 <kallisti> I should get double conacts
19:40:06 <kallisti> and then wear two pairs of glasses.
19:40:27 <monqy> a tower of contacts
19:40:31 <monqy> then another tower of glasses
19:40:31 <elliott> monqy: do you have to draw plus signs on the glasses to get doubleplusgood eyesight...
19:40:34 <monqy> these towers are horizontal
19:41:05 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:41:59 <monqy> I can't even imagine doubleplusgood eyesight. my brain is not good enough for all that eyesight imagination
19:42:43 <kallisti> monqy: can I see your xmonad config?
19:42:49 <monqy> no
19:42:53 <monqy> "it's bad"
19:42:56 <kallisti> it's okay don't be ashamed.
19:43:01 <monqy> im asham
19:43:05 <kallisti> I was just seeing if I'm missing anything useful.
19:43:14 <monqy> I actually forget what I put in it
19:43:15 <elliott> i'm a sham too
19:43:25 <kallisti> ... .xmonad/xmonad.hs ?
19:43:40 <monqy> yes
19:44:08 <kallisti> if you give me yours I'll trade you mine
19:44:15 <monqy> what if I don't want yours!!!
19:44:15 <kallisti> it'll be like stock exchange xmonad.
19:44:21 <kallisti> monqy: that's fine
19:44:24 <monqy> I'll give you hints
19:44:25 <monqy> about mine
19:44:25 <kallisti> but it's totally awesome.
19:44:28 <monqy> and then you can guess it
19:44:30 <kallisti> kk
19:44:33 <kallisti> go
19:44:38 <monqy> the first section is a
19:44:39 <monqy> todo list
19:44:44 <kallisti> lol
19:44:47 <kallisti> good good
19:44:56 <kallisti> is there anything in it that might be in my config?
19:45:01 <monqy> then there's the imports
19:45:05 <monqy> you probably have imports too
19:45:09 <kallisti> yep.
19:45:18 <kallisti> hm, do you have a main?
19:45:23 <monqy> wow, yes!
19:45:37 <elliott> me too
19:45:41 <kallisti> nice.
19:45:43 <kallisti> good setup.
19:45:46 <monqy> one thing that the main does is makes a spawner
19:45:47 <kallisti> helps with the programs a lot.
19:45:50 <monqy> does your main make a spawner
19:45:55 <kallisti> what's a spawner.
19:45:59 <monqy> a spawner
19:46:01 <kallisti> it spawns a pipe
19:46:03 <monqy> it helps with spawning things
19:46:03 <kallisti> pipes are good?
19:46:12 <kallisti> you can smoke with a pipe.
19:46:17 <kallisti> or you can direct raw sewage.
19:46:22 <kallisti> many options with pipes.
19:46:45 <Taneb> Or you can travel, if you're an Italian-American plumber resident in the Mushroom Kingdom
19:46:48 <monqy> another thing I do is set my modMask to mod4Mask and make focus not follow mouse
19:46:55 <kallisti> edgy
19:47:05 <kallisti> I actually like focus follows mouse
19:47:15 <monqy> I hear it's good, but I don't like it
19:47:19 <kallisti> because it saves me the trouble of clicking on some random unclickable thing, or, heaven forbid, using key combos.
19:47:40 <elliott> i use right alt as prefix
19:47:44 <elliott> because no right winkey
19:47:46 <kallisti> ...so like...
19:47:47 <kallisti> that's it?
19:47:50 <monqy> no
19:48:11 <monqy> the most interesting part of my config is how I organize my keybindings
19:48:28 <kallisti> I use all the defaults currently.
19:48:32 <kallisti> I just add stuff.
19:49:36 <monqy> I put my keybindings into three functions, based on how I want them to spawn. each function takes a spawner and returns a list of keybindings
19:49:46 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/QWeG
19:49:55 <monqy> so I do a concatMap ($ spawner) [my, list, of, stuff] to get my keybindings list
19:50:06 <kallisti> elliott: fits in one screenful
19:50:16 <elliott> no
19:50:19 <elliott> screenful = 24 lines dude
19:50:24 <kallisti> elliott: orly?
19:50:29 <elliott> yes
19:50:50 <elliott> ps i really wish I could say like
19:50:58 <elliott> type MyLayout = typeOf myLayoutHook
19:51:03 <elliott> to avoid the duplication
19:51:13 <elliott> well
19:51:17 <elliott> type MyLayout = typeOf myLayoutHook exceptForTheArgument :(
19:51:21 <kallisti> whut
19:51:38 <kallisti> hmmm oh you change one of the arguments
19:51:42 <kallisti> when mirroring
19:51:47 <elliott> no its just that
19:51:50 <elliott> the layout is reflected in the type
19:51:53 <elliott> by design
19:51:58 <elliott> so you end up writing everything almost twice
19:52:04 <elliott> hmm, I could avoid spelling it with some existentials... but i'm too lazy
19:52:30 <monqy> another thing I did is made a ManageHook to make it so stuff managed with that hook spawns on the workspace i did the spawny thing on
19:52:55 <kallisti> $ cat .xmonad/xmonad.hs | sprunge
19:52:56 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/ZAWI
19:52:56 <elliott> i wish dmenu-spawned stuff spawned on the workspace I used dmenu on
19:53:15 <monqy> you can probably do that
19:53:17 <elliott> kallisti: well /that's/ UUOC, surely "sprunge .xmonad/xmonad.hs" would work
19:53:20 <monqy> unless
19:53:20 <monqy> wait
19:53:25 <monqy> uhgh don't know
19:53:27 <elliott> monqy: im not sure about that... dmenu doesn't even execute the program itself
19:53:28 <monqy> I misread what you said :'(
19:53:31 <elliott> it quits and dmenu_run executes it
19:53:35 <kallisti> elliott: I like it that way because pipes
19:53:38 <elliott> so expressing the logic would be complicated
19:53:40 <zzo38> How many people have wanted typeOf in Haskell?
19:53:43 <kallisti> I can pipe things into pipes and then pipe that into sprunge.
19:53:48 <elliott> dynamicLogWithPP defaultPP { ppOutput = hPutStrLn xmproc
19:53:49 <elliott> , ppCurrent = xmobarColor "yellow" ""
19:53:51 <elliott> it fuck
19:53:54 <kallisti> zzo38: there is typeOF as far as I know.
19:53:56 <monqy> yellow
19:53:59 <monqy> yellow
19:54:03 <elliott> yellow
19:54:06 <kallisti> ...yes?
19:54:14 <monqy> yellow is icky, man
19:54:16 <kallisti> the default is also
19:54:17 <kallisti> yellow
19:54:27 <elliott> kallisti: indent that shit properly fucker
19:54:32 <elliott> kallisti: also use smartBorders asshole
19:54:48 <elliott> also use type signatures shithead
19:54:59 <kallisti> fuck off asshole.
19:55:01 <elliott> volumeKeys is bad also <insult>
19:55:04 * kallisti fixes indent.
19:55:27 <kallisti> weird I thought I fixed all that.
19:55:42 <zzo38> In my own (codenamed) "Ibtlfmm" one idea include, you might have: type TypeOf (_ :: {t :: k}) :: k = t; type MyLayout = TypeOf {myLayoutHook};
19:57:00 <elliott> kallisti: have i mentioned use smart borders
19:57:04 <kallisti> what is that do
19:57:48 <kallisti> oh
19:57:50 <kallisti> found it
20:02:24 -!- blackwhit has joined.
20:02:35 -!- blackwhit has left.
20:02:50 <elliott> `welcome bl
20:02:54 <zzo38> kallisti: What typeOF? There is typeOf for values, but not one for types?
20:02:55 <HackEgo> bl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:05:16 <kallisti> elliott: what's wrong with my volumeKeys?
20:05:38 <elliott> kallisti: You.
20:05:44 <kallisti> ..k
20:06:12 <kallisti> oh alignment
20:06:33 <kallisti> [ ("<XF86AudioLowerVolume>" , void (lowerVolume volAmnt))
20:06:33 <kallisti> , ("<XF86AudioRaiseVolume>" , void (raiseVolume volAmnt))
20:06:33 <kallisti> , ("<XF86AudioMute>" , void toggleMute )
20:06:38 <kallisti> ]
20:06:46 <kallisti> better?
20:08:09 <elliott> i use proportional irc font
20:08:15 <kallisti> shameful
20:08:48 <olsner> irc requires monospace :(
20:09:03 <elliott> No, your puny mind requires monospace.
20:09:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Stand with me, brother.
20:09:20 <elliott> I also have ais523 on my side, so ha.
20:09:21 <monqy> is something wrong with monospace
20:09:29 <kallisti> monqy: I don't know. I like monospace.
20:09:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I still use Libertine for Henry's XChat.
20:09:42 <olsner> monqy: apparently it makes your mind puny, according to elliott
20:09:56 <kallisti> no it is your puny mind that makes your mind puny
20:11:10 * Phantom_Hoover looks at the font list on XChat, sees Comic Sans sitting there.
20:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like that film which doesn't have Ron in it.
20:11:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: stop using windows
20:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> but skyrim
20:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> also valve bundle
20:12:48 <olsner> I should get comic sans installed so I can xchat in comic sans
20:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> OH GOD I DID IT AUIGJARGOA
20:13:21 * Phantom_Hoover vomist
20:13:31 <elliott> :')
20:13:31 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: comic sans?
20:13:38 <elliott> :')
20:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's like vomiting but it turns into a fine spray which soaks everyone nearby.)
20:13:51 <elliott> delicious
20:14:04 <olsner> but there's seriously nothing wrong with comic sans
20:14:11 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, READ MY ESSAY
20:15:47 <itidus21> don't worry guys, my ambitions in their way are worthwhile
20:17:00 <kallisti> wat
20:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/qisot/im_stephen_wolfram_mathematica_nks_wolframalpha/
20:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i
20:18:10 <elliott> oh god
20:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Not one of the top questions asks him about his raving egomania; poor show.
20:18:41 -!- itidus20 has joined.
20:18:56 <elliott> WolframAlpha now requires registering and logging in to free account to copy plaintext results. (wolframalpha.com)
20:18:56 <elliott> l o l
20:19:29 <monqy> w ha a t
20:19:37 <monqy> w hy
20:19:56 <itidus20> because they apparently want some money
20:20:02 <monqy> but it's
20:20:02 <monqy> free
20:20:14 <monqy> free account
20:20:24 <itidus20> hmmm
20:20:33 <itidus20> perhaps spambots are doing calculations
20:21:04 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:21:35 <elliott> "Holy shit people. He created, and is developing this for anyone to use, and he is only asking you to log in to get some of the more useful features."
20:21:40 <elliott> Feed the ego. Feeeeeeed.
20:22:11 <monqy> oh right, the ego
20:22:16 <monqy> I forgot about that, somehow
20:22:30 <zzo38> I think we need to make a new program, with some features of Wolfram|Alpha and Mathematica, but based on Haskell and open-source too
20:22:58 <elliott> "on behalf of math majors everywhere, thank you."
20:23:00 <elliott> NOT A QUESTION
20:23:08 <elliott> IAmA needs to delete non-questions.
20:23:19 <kallisti> math majors should just learn how to program Haskell problem solved
20:23:43 <elliott> "TIL Wolfram existed before I discovered Wolfram Alpha"
20:23:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How amazing is it that Alpha actually succeeded?
20:24:03 <elliott> It had stupidly overambitious marketing and the early reviews were pretty scathing.
20:24:08 <elliott> It had literally every ingredient of a massive flop.
20:24:51 <zzo38> In addition, Wolfram|Alpha still fails at ecliptic coordinates.
20:26:18 <zzo38> There are other things it fails at too.
20:27:49 <elliott> "An old one for Mathematica: Mike Foale was using it on the Mir space station; there was an accident; the computer it was on got sucked into space; Mike had a backup disk, but needed a password for a different computer; all-time favorite call to customer service ... and finally an in-action solving of equations of motion for a spinning space station."
20:28:00 <elliott> OK, the idea of an accident throwing a computer into space is just too funny.
20:29:07 <kallisti> ACTION MATHEMATICS.
20:29:18 <kallisti> THE BEST FILM OF 2012
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Wolfram Alpha"
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How amazing is it that Alpha actually succeeded?
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> It had stupidly overambitious marketing and the early reviews were pretty scathing.
20:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> It had literally every ingredient of a massive flop.
20:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Because, for all its flaws, it's still *really* useful.
20:33:25 <itidus20> xkcd the movie: starring brad pitt, jim carrey, richard stallman, julia roberts and quentin tarantino
20:35:45 <itidus20> and uh... brendan fraser as the main character
20:37:06 <itidus20> i might have my actors mixed up
20:37:48 <itidus20> i mean matthew broderick
20:41:07 <itidus20> if i made regular use of wolframalpha i wouldn't feel like such a <insult> for igoring the topic but what i am thinking about is game of life as an animation format.. an idea bubbling away
20:41:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:42:04 <itidus20> the basic idea being that a finite multicolored game of life equivalent to the size of a display which updates the display on "key" generations
20:42:29 <itidus20> everything inbetween the key generations being an "inbetween" generation
20:42:40 <elliott> hi ais523
20:43:30 <ais523> hi
20:44:18 <itidus20> basically i think everyone has too much fun with the math of GoL to consider such direct practical applications
20:44:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, guess what's about to update!"
20:46:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, guess what has just updated!
20:47:30 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:48:10 <itidus20> thats roughly how deluded i am.. i don't like to think about the realities of encoding animations as GoL such as the lack of likelihood that there is any CA suited to representing animations
20:50:08 <itidus20> hmm a thought coming to me now.. that a pattern in a GoL could be like a marker which gets overlaid by a bitmap.. such as a glider.. perhaps it scans the GoL for any gliders and draws a missile bitmap in its place
20:50:26 <itidus20> and it draws a gun where it finds a glider gun pattern...
20:56:24 <kallisti> itidus20: would probably help if you knew how to program.
21:00:35 <itidus20> i know it doesn't matter but in my world i made a breakthrough just now in using sprites as overlays of GoL patterns to create scenes. with the rest of the cells being kind of darkened like the actors in black in a japanese puppet show
21:01:07 <itidus20> it also solves the coloring problem
21:08:24 <Taneb> PixelQuest update
21:09:08 <elliott> I guessed.
21:10:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH).
21:10:56 <monqy> ah
21:16:05 <itidus20> "<itidus20> basically i think everyone has too much fun with the math of GoL to consider such direct practical applications" eating my hat.. nom nom
21:25:38 <Vorpal> hm.... I wonder what the origin of that phrase is
21:25:45 <Vorpal> (eating your own hat)
21:26:21 <itidus20> i imagine it would have been easier in days when hats were made of animal skins
21:26:34 <itidus20> if there was such days
21:26:51 <Vorpal> itidus20, you mean leather? Doubtful
21:27:08 <Vorpal> anyway there are straw hats and such
21:27:10 <itidus20> uhh... lets blame my looking at tekken screenshots with that guy who has a tigers head on
21:27:19 <Vorpal> itidus20, tekken?
21:27:22 <itidus20> and zangief wearing a bear
21:27:32 <itidus20> ^costume
21:27:38 <Vorpal> itidus20, what is tekken?
21:28:29 <itidus20> ahh it's a 3d stylized martial arts tournament simulation game
21:28:55 <Vorpal> itidus20, so, like street fighter?
21:29:01 <itidus20> yup
21:29:20 <itidus20> not only that... the game in question is called street fighter x tekken
21:29:43 <Vorpal> x standing for?
21:29:48 <Vorpal> 10?
21:29:56 <itidus20> cross
21:29:59 <Vorpal> I see
21:31:36 <itidus20> i dont really play these things... nowadays.. but tekken has this character who wears a tigers head skin over his head.. except its drawn as if he were a half man half tiger
21:31:39 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:32:03 <itidus20> which is kind of creepy
21:32:04 <Vorpal> mhm, didn't you just call it "martial arts tournament simulation game"...
21:32:40 <Vorpal> which material art does it simulate?
21:32:55 <itidus20> it simulates a tournament of mixed martial arts :D
21:33:33 <itidus20> in a stylized way
21:33:36 <Vorpal> mhm, so none of that unrealistic stuff then that I seen in some of those games? (I have no idea which one)
21:33:54 <itidus20> fsvo stylized
21:34:26 <Vorpal> itidus20, I mean, is it stuff that could happen in real life?
21:35:33 <itidus20> i guess ill have to quickly say no
21:35:40 <Vorpal> right
21:36:01 <Vorpal> then I'm not sure simulation is the right term, although you could make a case of it simulating unreality.
21:36:09 <Vorpal> In which case most games are simulators
21:36:33 <Vorpal> (or possibly all?)
21:36:52 <itidus20> gotta love the way a words meaning can be modified to designate almost anything
21:36:58 <Vorpal> Pacman: Simulator for a 2D world where there are ghosts and you are yellow circle segment running around eating things.
21:37:35 <Vorpal> itidus20, I think it is annoying rather.
21:37:46 <Vorpal> makes writing a natural language parser much harder
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21:39:14 <Vorpal> itidus20, but yeah personally I restrict "simulator" in the context of computer applications to very realistic "games". Flight sims obviously. Also ARMA 1/2/3, a military combat simulator (think COD or such but actually hyper-realistic instead of hyper-unrealistic)
21:39:35 <Vorpal> there are driving simulators too
21:39:47 <Vorpal> though I can't think of any names on the top of my head.
21:39:56 <itidus20> i manage to walk the line between smart and stupid too well for my own good
21:40:11 <itidus20> gran turismo series is one
21:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> In which case most games are simulators
21:40:21 <Vorpal> mhm, haven't played that
21:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> (or possibly all?)
21:40:24 <elliott> you don't walk that line itidus20, trust me
21:40:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes?
21:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> All computer games are simulators, and all games are simulators in a sense.
21:40:45 <itidus20> but then theres this other one whose name i can't think of which is a rally simulator
21:41:48 <itidus20> i mean, i don't think theres anything i can be told about video games which will surprise me very much
21:41:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, but usually people don't call something like Final Fantasy a simulator, while they do say "flight simulator"
21:41:57 <itidus20> except that is.. for AI
21:42:16 <itidus20> i will probably be afraid of AI before too long
21:44:19 <Vorpal> I wonder how so many video games can screw up pathing btw. I mean, it isn't that hard really. As far as I know pathing from point A to point B with a navmesh is a solved problem.
21:44:35 -!- ion has joined.
21:45:48 <itidus20> my hope is that all of these little ideas i have add up as lots of little displacements summing to one big displacement
21:46:01 -!- MoALTz has joined.
21:46:10 <itidus20> so that i am completely non-conventional by the time i do make something
21:48:00 <itidus20> in my mind it sounds like a utopia.. but theres nothing there really. thats a problem.
21:49:58 <itidus20> there is value in developing ideas in isolation...
21:52:25 <itidus20> well its true that tehres a difference between being smart and skilled and talented.. and being ambitious for the sake of being ambitious.. but the latter is still fun
21:53:40 -!- nortti has joined.
21:55:25 <kallisti> itidus20: you don't seem to actually possess any ambition.
21:57:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an old matra related to Tekken: "Tekken Tekken Virtua Fighter, oh my brain feels so much lighter".
21:58:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh?
21:59:57 <fizzie> I don't quite recall where it's from. Maybe some parody thing.
22:01:42 -!- EduardKhil has changed nick to khil.
22:03:25 <fizzie> Also as seen in ##c, two new asteroid names: 300909 Kenthompson, and 294727 Dennisritchie.
22:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an old matra related to Tekken: "Tekken Tekken Virtua Fighter, oh my brain feels so much lighter".
22:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The old matra.
22:03:46 <fizzie> Mantra.
22:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Much better than that new sa-matra.
22:09:54 -!- Zuu has joined.
22:10:08 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:13:23 <fizzie> If "Sa-Matra" means "Great Trophy", possibly then a matra is just a trophy. (Or great.)
22:14:16 -!- itidus21 has joined.
22:14:38 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:16:17 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:17:51 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
22:21:02 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:21:47 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:22:48 * Phantom_Hoover finds lutusp arguing that insurance is a bad investment, feels that he has rather missed the point.
22:23:25 -!- itidus20 has joined.
22:24:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lutusp... WRONG??/
22:24:36 <elliott> impossible
22:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, you don't buy insurance hoping that you'll come out with a monetary gain; you buy it because value and money aren't linear.
22:24:42 <elliott> *???
22:25:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could consider: saying that?
22:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It's on his website.
22:25:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know where to say?
22:25:24 <elliott> He has an email address?
22:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I'm too young and stupid to see exactly what he's arguing; I'd almost think he's arguing it's a bad idea if you have infinite money.
22:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html
22:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "#6. Getting Shot Is Only Fatal 5 Percent of the Time (If You Get to a Doctor)
22:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "
22:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember my dad telling me that when he was studying medicine they were all amazed when a policeman who'd been shot was brought in and it was a pretty trivial thing to fix.
22:29:57 <elliott> fizzie: Haven't you said that "matra" before?
22:30:08 <fizzie> Probably. It keeps rattling around in my head.
22:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> He played too much SC2 in his youth, evidently.
22:30:59 <fizzie> 2011-09-26 15:54:25 <fizzie> A mantra: "tekken tekken virtua fighter / oh my brain feels so much lighter".
22:31:26 <fizzie> 2011-09-26 15:54:29 <fizzie> I can't remember where that's from.
22:31:36 <elliott> Google gives a nothing.
22:31:49 <fizzie> I'm such a broken such a broken a broken a bro-bro-broken-en-en record.
22:32:37 <fizzie> I think it might have been related to the Pelit ("Games") magazine, a Finnish computer games thing. It had some sarcastic columnists.
22:34:15 -!- aloril has joined.
22:40:03 <elliott> kallisti: Grr.
22:40:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:41:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:49:12 <kallisti> kallisti: rawr?
22:51:27 <elliott> kallisti: You encouraged people to have discussions in articlespace.
22:51:35 <kallisti> uh, I did?
22:51:44 <kallisti> butterfly effect, man...
22:51:46 <kallisti> NOT MY FAULT.
22:52:07 <elliott> Also http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_Operating_System&diff=next&oldid=8728 wtf.
22:52:38 <kallisti> oh right
22:52:39 <kallisti> that was a thing.
22:53:22 <elliott> Why did you almost blank it.
22:53:53 <elliott> Also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BugSophia this is awful why doesn't it have a spec you're terrible.
22:53:57 <kallisti> yeah you can like... a) delete that b) remove any mention of my name but leaving it available as a discussion place for Yet Another eso-OS Brainstorm Dud.
22:54:08 <kallisti> elliott: because past-kallisti is a terrible person.
22:54:17 <kallisti> unlike now.
22:54:19 <kallisti> totally different.
22:54:31 <elliott> kallisti: The only way I could remove any mention of your name would be to hide revisions.
22:54:40 <kallisti> sounds good.
22:54:42 <kallisti> :P
22:54:42 <elliott> I'm not going to hide revisions unless I absolutely have to (personal information, copyright violation).
22:55:15 <elliott> Anyway, why the heck'd you blank that page.
22:55:41 <kallisti> because it's worthless.
22:55:48 <kallisti> most likely.
22:56:00 <kallisti> I don't know. that was 5 years ago.
22:56:13 * elliott just reverts to the previous revision so the page isn't completely bare.
22:56:13 <kallisti> almost exactly 5 years ago.
22:56:45 <elliott> Actually no, it's shit, I'll just leave it as a horrible shell of a page.
22:56:56 <elliott> I repeat: grr.
22:57:04 <kallisti> yes. good.
22:57:09 <kallisti> see? now you understand.
22:57:12 -!- calamari has joined.
22:57:32 <kallisti> the only reason I have blanked almost everything I've written on the wiki is because I'm lazy and/or busy with something.
22:57:35 <kallisti> *haven't
22:57:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Augh, Cracked, stop throwing David Wong at me.
22:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I know you all think he's witty and insightful; stop making me hate you more.
22:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The list of people I wish to physically injure because of the monkeysphere article alone took far too much effort to maintain.
22:59:34 <elliott> kallisti: Don't vandalise shit just because you're an idiot.
23:00:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stue Did this thing ever actually exist, or was it a work-in-progress?
23:00:16 <kallisti> elliott: so once I personally throw something on the wiki it becomes a permanent fixture that can't be removed by myself no matter how worthless it is?
23:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, yes.
23:00:26 <kallisti> this isn't Wikipedia, after all.
23:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this a surprising concept to you?
23:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The minute you put something on the wiki it's the property of the wiki.
23:00:54 <kallisti> the idea of a wiki being a pristine accumulation of shit as the result of status quo? no.
23:00:56 <kallisti> not a new concept.
23:01:17 <elliott> kallisti: Putting something on the wiki releases it into the public domain. Our goal is to document every esoteric language and the ideas and concepts relating to them.
23:01:30 <elliott> So, no, deleting something just because you don't like it any more isn't OK.
23:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The idea of a wiki not being subject to the whims of authors whose work may have been developed upon or had value to others.
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> * is new to you?
23:02:29 <kallisti> no none of this is new
23:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But it obviously doesn't appeal to your immature view of things.
23:02:50 <kallisti> also, you're arguing to me about a decision I made 5 years ago. There's other reasons I haven't gone around deleting everything I've written on the wiki.
23:02:53 <kallisti> because I'd rather revise it.
23:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm arguing about stupid things you said five minutes ago.
23:03:32 * elliott was not arguing about your decision to pseudo-blank that page.
23:03:37 <elliott> I was arguing with
23:03:40 <elliott> <kallisti> the only reason I have blanked almost everything I've written on the wiki is because I'm lazy and/or busy with something.
23:03:40 <elliott> <kallisti> *haven't
23:03:44 <kallisti> um, no. unless a wiki /is/ a permanent fixture of accumulated poor quality material.
23:04:00 <elliott> The wiki documents a great many poor languages.
23:04:01 <kallisti> aka shit
23:04:10 <elliott> The goal is to have quality documentation of everything, which includes quality documentation of poor languages.
23:04:23 <elliott> Otherwise I wouldn't try and clean up pages on languages I personally find uninteresting.
23:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, no it just works on the priniciple that kind of crap > nothing, since space is barely an issue.
23:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover> *principle
23:05:03 <kallisti> ah the good old inclusionist argument.
23:05:12 <kallisti> flashbacks from WP..
23:05:21 <kallisti> I'm not interested
23:05:25 <kallisti> in talking about this anymore.
23:05:34 <elliott> You really are an idiot.
23:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Inclusionism is the obvious policy of a wiki meant to document content created by its users.
23:05:50 <kallisti> unless you're prefer to have a neverending discussion about nothing important.
23:06:12 <kallisti> and
23:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like there's any significant esolang activity outside the wiki.
23:06:15 <kallisti> as I clearly stated
23:06:18 <kallisti> I'd rather revise than delete.
23:06:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't really care what you're pretending you said to save face.
23:06:46 <elliott> <kallisti> the only reason I have blanked almost everything I've written on the wiki is because I'm lazy and/or busy with something.
23:06:47 <elliott> <kallisti> *haven't
23:06:49 <elliott> <kallisti> and
23:06:50 <kallisti> yes
23:06:50 <elliott> <kallisti> as I clearly stated
23:06:51 <elliott> <kallisti> I'd rather revise than delete.
23:06:54 <kallisti> that's a thing to say.
23:07:02 <kallisti> also more things I've said.
23:07:05 <kallisti> I do keep track of these.
23:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you even seeking to achieve here.
23:07:19 <kallisti> nothing
23:07:21 <kallisti> the discussion
23:07:25 <kallisti> was completely brought to me
23:07:30 <kallisti> and I'm reacting.
23:07:31 <kallisti> ?
23:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's making yourself look like an idiot, you're excelling as always.
23:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite why you insist on this intellectual masochism is beyond me, however.
23:08:04 <kallisti> look..
23:08:22 <kallisti> I can't think about everything at the same time. Maybe it's because I'm idiot.
23:08:34 <kallisti> perhaps what I say isn't meant to be set in stone.
23:08:43 <kallisti> when I say "yeah that's the only reason I haven't deleted everything"
23:08:47 <kallisti> perhaps I'm leaving something out.
23:08:49 <elliott> "as I clearly stated" is not the way to revise your previous statements.
23:08:53 <elliott> with new information
23:08:55 <kallisti> no
23:08:57 <kallisti> look
23:09:08 <kallisti> 18:02 < kallisti> also, you're arguing to me about a decision I made 5 years ago. There's other reasons I haven't gone around deleting everything I've written on the wiki.
23:09:11 <kallisti> 18:02 < kallisti> because I'd rather revise it.
23:09:14 <kallisti> not new info
23:09:29 <kallisti> hey look, previous reasons I hadn't disclosed
23:09:42 <kallisti> not because I give a shit about explaining away past shit I said.
23:09:43 <kallisti> but because
23:09:44 <kallisti> it's the truth
23:09:46 <kallisti> for fucks sake.
23:09:49 <kallisti> I'm done.
23:10:05 <elliott> You were done five minutes ago.
23:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You can waffle all you want, but the fact is that most of us can get by without regularly embarassing ourselves because we're not burdened with this ridiculous pride you insist on lugging around.
23:15:17 <kallisti> I'd just like to say that, going back over the things I've said (in sequence). none of it is actually self-contradicting at all? perhaps you can check yourself if you're curious.
23:15:22 <kallisti> anyway, feel free to have the last word now.
23:15:52 -!- kallisti has left.
23:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder when he'll realise that his life will be considerably easier if he gains the ability to back down.
23:16:49 <nortti> is it always like this here?
23:17:03 <zzo38> Is always like what?
23:17:06 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, not when kallisti keeps his gob shut.
23:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, he's been doing that far too rarely of late.
23:18:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (We're kind and fluffy deep down, really.)
23:19:49 <elliott> nortti: Yes, it's always like this here.
23:20:06 <nortti> ok
23:20:24 <elliott> Except when it's not
23:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So, today I experienced the smell of cholesterol.
23:27:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It is not a pleasant smell.
23:27:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Spray some Flora on it.
23:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'd probably get yelled at by the person doing the experiment.
23:28:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Surely people yell at you constantly.
23:28:30 <elliott> You're pertty annoying.
23:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but not to the extent of ruining experiments which are part of people's conditions to getting into university.
23:29:59 <elliott> You have limits?
23:30:01 <elliott> *pretty
23:30:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this about the rabbit.
23:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I said sorry for the rabbit.
23:30:52 <elliott> YOU KILLED THAT RABBIT
23:34:30 <elliott> Hey, where'd ais523 come from?
23:34:36 <elliott> ais523: Did you sneak in?
23:34:46 <ais523> I've been here for ages, you even said hi to me
23:35:15 <elliott> ais523: WELL HI AGAIN.
23:35:21 <ais523> hi!
23:35:35 <elliott> "This is a next version which is being deployed in February 2012 and will be released in the 2nd week of March 2012 ."
23:35:40 <elliott> Yay, 1.19 has a release date!
23:35:53 <elliott> ais523: DID YOU KNOW they're changing the diffs even more massively than previously thought?
23:36:06 <ais523> no
23:36:17 <ais523> is that from a recently created article?
23:36:54 <elliott> YES.
23:37:09 <elliott> They're going to look roughly like this: http://bug-attachment.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10151 though I think it'll take until 1.20 for that to actually come through in a release.
23:37:35 <elliott> Well, actually like this slightly-different version: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10178 (PDF)
23:37:55 <ais523> that's a PNG, not a PDF
23:38:22 <elliott> The latter is not a PNG.
23:38:27 <elliott> Oh, oops.
23:38:33 <elliott> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/attachment.cgi?id=10177
23:38:35 <elliott> That's a PDF.
23:38:35 <Friendship> http://stabyourself.net/mari0 <-- lest anyone hasn't seen it :)
23:38:35 <lambdabot> Friendship: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:39:42 <ais523> meh, I am not emotionally involved in this change
23:40:20 <elliott> I need the people to be upset!!!
23:40:34 <elliott> It's my *job* to institute sweeping technological changes while everyone complains!
23:40:37 <ais523> oh, you don't like it?
23:40:50 <ais523> or you just want other people to not like it so you can feel superior?
23:41:29 <elliott> I like it, it's just that other people aren't allowed to.
23:41:38 <elliott> When have you ever heard of a website changing its design and the users *not* complaining?
23:42:42 <ais523> that's because most website design changes suck
23:42:52 <ais523> nobody complained when acehack.eu improved its design
23:42:52 <elliott> That's what the users think, yes.
23:43:00 <elliott> I did.
23:43:01 <elliott> Nobody heard.
23:43:19 <elliott> I see acehack.eu has telnet now.
23:43:32 <shachaf> [6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~a
23:43:32 <elliott> Did that take a lot of yelling?
23:43:32 <shachaf> Ahem.
23:43:53 <ais523> elliott: I don't think it does, kerio eventually put an sshd on port 23 in some sort of point
23:44:06 <elliott> oh, "ssh acehack@acehack.eu (fingerprint; you can also try port 995 (POP3S) or port 23 (TELNET) if port 22 is blocked"
23:44:09 <ais523> yep, and there's still an sshd there
23:44:16 <elliott> so by "port 23 (TELNET)", he means "port 23 (TELNET PORT RUNNING SSHD BECAUSE I'M A MORON)"
23:44:27 <elliott> I suppose AceHack over POP3S would be quite a feat.
23:44:31 <ais523> he means he put sshd on 23 so that nobody could claim that they could use telnet but not ssh
23:44:43 <ais523> due to firewalls, etc
23:44:59 <elliott> i'm sure there's many platforms with a telnet client but not ssh
23:45:10 <ais523> yes, indeed
23:45:17 <ais523> Windows XP/Vista, for instance
23:45:24 <elliott> err, those have SSH clients available
23:45:35 <elliott> I mean platforms where you /can't/ use SSH, full stop
23:45:48 <elliott> (Windows 7 comes with ssh?)
23:48:21 <ais523> elliott: they come with telnet by default, ssh you have to install
23:48:30 <ais523> and you might not be able to install new software
23:48:46 <elliott> they also come with web browsers
23:48:50 <elliott> and there are online ssh clients
23:49:06 <ais523> hmm, but they suck for playing roguelikes on
23:49:17 <elliott> Windows sucks for doing anything
23:49:39 <elliott> anyway, if I find a platform with no SSH client or web browser, and tell kerio I want to play on acehack.eu, do you think he'll set up a telnet server?
23:51:14 <zzo38> Actually a computer I plan to build, might not have SSH client or web browser; but the terminal size might not be enough even if there is telnet server, if it is TV screen (maybe I will have other outputs too)
23:54:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:56:35 <pikhq> So, if you find yourself using a C64.
23:59:49 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: they come with telnet by default, ssh you have to install <-- iirc windows 7 doesn't come with telnet by default either
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