00:29:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:39:42 -!- josefnpat_ has joined. 00:40:41 Hey guys, after many years of loving esoteric languages (like brainfuck) I've written my own, and am interested in knowing if there is a submission process, or if I just add a page on the wiki about it. 00:40:55 Just add a page. 00:41:00 Cheers 00:41:01 Also, 00:41:04 `welcome josefnpat_ 00:41:07 Thanks :) 00:41:07 josefnpat_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 00:41:15 haha 00:41:16 nice 00:41:25 you guys get the capital version working yet? 00:41:30 Any guidelines for submissions? 00:41:43 shadwick: Naw, that's elliott's job. 00:41:51 josefnpat_: You should look at the categories and try to categorize it properly. 00:42:20 josefnpat_: I like when the pages have enough details that you could write an interpreter/compiler for that language without ambiguities 00:42:27 Cool 00:42:34 I've written a interpreter for it already 00:42:38 nice 00:42:38 and have a lot of doc for it 00:42:42 https://github.com/josefnpat/fuck 00:42:51 That's the fourth-person "you", not you ;) 00:42:57 I need a bit more doc before I contribute it, but it's almost done. 00:43:28 hahaha nice 00:43:46 :) 00:45:30 RocketJSquirrel, where is the catagories page? I am not very good with wikimedia. 00:45:36 categories 00:45:59 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&limit=500 00:46:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories 00:46:06 Thank you! 00:46:14 Mediawiki 00:46:17 Not Wikimedia 00:46:41 oops, you're right 00:46:54 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki 00:47:44 -!- cswords__ has joined. 00:51:01 -!- cswords_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:53:39 back 00:54:03 josefnpat_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization is a better guide to categories 00:54:07 elliott, tswett monqy karupdate, if you didn 00:54:11 't see it 00:54:24 Thanks elliott 00:54:44 Except for Shameful 00:54:46 Karupdate, you say? 00:55:05 Just memorize the non-existence of Shameful 00:55:15 I have added "2012", and "Joke languages" 00:55:20 Should I add any other categories? 00:55:22 You'll also have to memorise the non-existence of Auisduisdiujif. 00:55:26 A horrible burden :) 00:55:48 josefnpat_: it doesn't look like a joke language to me (n.b. the definition of joke language we use differs from the common English meaning of the term) 00:56:04 What would you suggest then? 00:56:04 "This is a list of esoteric languages that are not of any interest except for potential humor value. Generally speaking, they are completely unusable for programming even in theory, trivial and less interesting variations on existing esoteric languages, or too underspecified to determine any potential usability." 00:56:14 Ah. 00:56:19 Very good point. 00:56:40 [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2012]] [[Category:Unknown computational class]], probably 00:56:50 [[Category:Low-level]] also 00:57:08 What's that language that has a severe difference in reference implementation vs spec? 00:57:12 Thank you very much. I've added them. 00:57:26 Sgeo: Malbolge? Not that severe, though. 00:57:41 elliott, I think that's the one I was thinking of 00:57:59 And with regards to it not being severe: Oh. 00:59:03 * elliott twiddles http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuck a bit 00:59:26 Cheers :) 00:59:40 I'm not going to lie, I had a lot of fun writing this, lol. 00:59:45 * elliott twiddles http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuck a bit // so dirty 00:59:57 RocketJSquirrel: Come on, it's not even a brainfuck. 01:00:01 My poor, virgin, squirrely ears. 01:00:28 I'm working up a basic example use case (as opposed to simple programs) 01:01:39 * elliott is shocked nobody came up with an esolang called "fuck" before. 01:01:54 I win? 01:02:06 Apparently! 01:02:13 Lol. 01:02:40 I see the implementation is in PHP. It's always best when esolangs are implemented in other esolangs. 01:03:01 Should I re-write it in brainfuck or Ook? 01:03:17 Why would you rewrite it in a less esoteric language? 01:03:28 But seriously, if there's enough intrest, i'd be willing to re-write it in C 01:04:04 I've got some issues opened about making is_numberic() more portable anyway. 01:04:11 is_numeric() 01:04:13 -!- RocketJSquirrel has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:04:33 but I wrote it in php to get the kinks out. 01:04:52 just as a Proof of Concept. 01:05:20 I usually find a lot of php to have kinks in it 01:05:32 behaviour in the stdlib I mean 01:05:33 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:05:37 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship. 01:05:41 true enough. 01:05:47 Friendship: You forgot /nick RocketJSquirrel. 01:05:52 What about Common Lisp in terms of standard lib kinks? 01:05:54 You're half-way up the ladder of nicks. 01:06:05 Sgeo: I don't know CL (...yet!) 01:06:07 shadwick: If only PHP's kinks were limited to the stdlib! 01:06:13 heheh 01:06:14 -!- Friendship has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel. 01:06:18 elliott: also true 01:06:29 shadwick, you will soon learn that I am a language tourist. I obsess over one language at a time. 01:06:32 elliott: Dern defaults X-D 01:06:42 While never actually using the language for anything 01:06:52 Maybe THIS is the language that will change all that (yeah right) 01:08:04 I take it PHP is a very kinky language? 01:08:13 yes 01:08:22 very dangerous in the wrong hands 01:08:41 and by wrong hands i mean the owner of said hands are idiots. 01:08:53 I must be an idiot then :( 01:08:54 Common Lisp can be like that too really 01:09:00 :/ 01:09:12 I'm going to go with :/ too 01:09:32 o~o 01:09:58 (format t ":/") 01:10:07 hi 01:10:27 -!- shadwick_ has joined. 01:10:34 Yay, monqy's back. 01:10:37 monqy: Say hi to josefnpat_. 01:10:43 `welcome josefnpat_ 01:10:45 josefnpat_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 01:10:46 `welcome shadwick_ 01:10:48 ugh. anyways, by being rocketed to popularity on the net, PHP got tons of crap 01:10:49 shadwick_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 01:10:59 like most web things 01:11:05 shadwick, very true 01:11:16 Thank you a second welcome monqy 01:11:19 it took off and now it's half procedural with poor OOP slapped on some bits 01:11:36 and things like `real_' preceding some functions.. 01:12:37 CL's CLOS can act a bit slapped on at times. Particularly, a lot of built-in functions are not generic 01:12:41 When they could be 01:12:44 -!- shadwick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:13:01 Although, it wouldn't be that hard to make a thin layering over the top where functions like car and cdr are generic.. 01:13:03 Sgeo: what about this fabled MOP I've heard of? 01:13:17 -!- shadwick_ has changed nick to shadwick. 01:14:10 I don't know much about the MOP 01:14:12 Still learning 01:14:34 It's still a better object system, I think, than a lot of others, even if it is perhaps complex 01:14:56 But it's not as thoroughly done as in, say, Smalltalk. 01:15:04 I haven't dabbled with CL really at all, but I always hear talk of all the macros and meta programming 01:15:31 I think CL macros are easier to understand than Scheme macros, but then again I don't know much about Scheme macros 01:15:55 I saw a scheme macro that allowed a function to memoize results, and be defined with argument pattern matching 01:16:05 like erlang or haskell's way 01:16:13 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:16:16 crazy stuff like that 01:16:24 syntax changes and whatnot 01:16:56 Yeah, CL's macros can do that too. With CL macros, you literally get a chunk of the source and transform it into something else 01:17:12 So, within the macro, the syntax that your macro takes can be pretty much anything you like 01:17:29 ridiculous 01:17:40 (Except for being completely limited, lexically.) 01:17:42 I've heard scheme's macros are stunted compared to CL though 01:18:26 In the same way that Java is stunted compared to C because you can't cause segfaults 01:18:34 (OK, Java is stunted compared to C, but not for that reason.) 01:19:26 ahh ok 01:19:58 OK, you do lose some power, but it's also a lot more convenient to define macros once you get used to it, and eliminates a very common source of errors. 01:20:07 (And there's not all that many uses of the lost power in practice.) 01:20:31 elliott, hmm, macros can take environment objects, but those are implementation-dependent. Would it be feasible to make a cross-platform library that understands each implementation (similarly to networking libraries or cffi, for example), and allows you to do sane things with the environment? 01:22:03 I don't know what language you are talking about. 01:22:13 Common Lisp 01:26:08 I don't know, then. 01:34:47 elliott, what are some uses (besides hygiene) of inspecting the lexical environment? 01:35:01 -!- lament has left. 01:36:12 I don't really know what you mean. 01:38:04 Is the only deal with hygiene how it prevents hygiene errors? 01:38:10 Or are there benefits beyond that? 01:49:52 Is the only deal of a type system how it prevents type errors? 01:50:19 -!- josefnpat_ has left ("Ex-Chat"). 02:01:54 By removing all type-related errors from JS' spec and giving them defined but senseless behaviors (note: this involves almost nothing since most type errors already have senseless behavior), I can get a perfect progress guarantee with no static types. 02:02:07 Preventing type errors like an Eich. 02:08:34 RocketJSquirrel: Ha 02:09:25 RocketJSquirrel: I laugh, yet dearly hope no industry programmers are listening to adopt your ideas. 02:09:31 >: ) 02:09:44 THIS IS WHAT LEAD TO NODE.JS, YOU FOOL 02:09:55 i don't know anything about node.js 02:10:00 what is it 02:10:02 NO 02:10:06 STOP 02:10:08 aside from js server thingy 02:10:11 i know that much 02:10:17 esp. js, thingy 02:10:24 elliott: Why aren't you in any of the cool channels? 02:10:34 monqy: You know how GHC has that awesome event manager, so you write blocking, threaded, sequential IO code and it uses epoll/kqueue asynchronous magic under the hood? 02:11:04 now I do 02:11:07 node.js is like that, except it just forces you to write your program in continuation-passing style instead. And it's cooperative, so you can't block to do a computation. Ever. 02:11:22 elliott: It's not exactly continuation-passing style. 02:11:32 This has convinced an entire generation of programmers that, as long as you tediously write every single statement as a callback, your server will be web scale. 02:11:39 shachaf: Uh... it's exactly CPS. 02:11:41 AN ENTIRE GENERATION 02:11:46 an entire generation 02:11:46 Yes, an ENTIRE GENERATION. 02:11:51 Programmers live about 3 years. 02:11:53 AN entire generation 02:11:54 elliott: foo(function(...) { ... }); bar(function(...) { ... }); ... 02:12:03 I died long ago 02:12:11 is monqy a programmer 02:12:25 shachaf: That's just how you do concurrency with asynchronous CPS. 02:12:30 shachaf: maybe when I was alive 02:12:31 elliott: Which one of those is the continuation? 02:12:43 Compare forkIO (foo >>= ...); forkIO (bar >>= ...) 02:12:48 elliott: What about when you have button.onclick = function(...) { ... }; is that a continuation? 02:12:57 Sure. 02:13:09 elliott: Those are hardly the same. forkIO happens at a completely different level from this CPS mess. 02:13:15 The point is that the continuation-passing view isn't very useful there. 02:13:24 Anyway, for a definition of "CPS" that includes that, I agree. 02:13:30 But with node.js, the vast majority of programs lean heavily right. 02:13:30 elliott, wouldn't that make sense if the language had support for writing CPS as though it were more straighforward, or otherwise had first-class continuations (Scheme)? 02:13:41 (Modulo factoring) 02:13:56 Or if the language were at least capable of supporting a way of rearranging source code (ala cl-cont) 02:13:59 Sgeo: That would mean you're not programming in continuation-passing style. 02:14:08 elliott, but you still get the benefits of continuations 02:14:13 Without any tedium 02:14:17 do-notation is exactly "support for writing CPS as though it were more straightforward" 02:14:35 That's what do-notation does. The thing that you give >>= is a "continuation". 02:14:43 That too. 02:15:11 So, Haskell, Scheme, Common Lisp. Any of those languages would be good for this sort of thing, right? Unlike, uh. Javascript? 02:15:14 Oh, Smalltalk too 02:15:24 Sgeo: Is "but if you have a better language, you can do something different and it works better" meant to be a counterargument to anything I have said? 02:15:33 That's why the whole Cont "mother of all monads" thing works. 02:15:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:16:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:17:18 elliott: Anyway, there have been many source-transformers written for JavaScript to give it this sort of feature. 02:17:25 I know there have. 02:17:29 node.js programmers don't use them. 02:17:35 Some of them do! 02:18:23 Anyway, I guess it's make-fun-of-node.js-o'clock. 02:18:28 * shachaf is in support. 02:18:57 elliott: The part that you haven't considered is that the only alternative to using node.js is using Ruby on Rails. 02:19:04 Because, like, what else would you use, man? 02:19:09 Honestly, I would pick Rails. 02:19:18 BUT REAL-TIME 02:19:23 THE NEW WEB IS REAL-TIME 02:19:34 This is despite the fact that one of them is a TCP framework with an HTTP library and the other one is a web framework. 02:19:53 node.js doesn't support UDP? 02:19:58 Well, maybe it does. 02:21:11 The opposite of JavaScript, as we know, is Haskell. 02:21:21 So what would be the opposite of node.js? That's right, yesde.hs. 02:21:32 A leading web framework for Haskell is called "Yesod". 02:21:36 Coïncidence?????? 02:25:21 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:25:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:25:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:30:45 Ah. 02:31:02 shachaf: Wouldn't the opposite of "de" be the country code of the opposite of Germany? 02:31:33 elliott: What's the opposite of Germany? 02:31:43 I don't know. 02:31:44 .od isn't a TLAAAAAAD 02:31:50 ...Ahem. 02:31:55 I have no idea how that happened. 02:32:00 I'm pretty sure I typed "TLD" 02:33:28 TLAAAAAAD 02:34:20 * shachaf chalks it up to gremlins. 02:35:34 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Roll out the squirrel! We'll have a squirrel of TLAAAAAAD! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!. 02:37:03 RocketJSquirrel = Friendship? 02:37:07 Yes 02:37:10 = Gregor 02:37:10 I can't keep up with all your names, man. 02:37:11 = shachaf 02:37:17 gasp 02:37:33 shachaf: Y'know, I don't usually change nicks, I was Gregor for /years/ before I switched to Friendship X-D 02:37:39 = #esoteric 02:37:50 = zzo38 02:37:55 RocketJSquirrel, or rather, you were variations on Gregor 02:38:00 And elsewhere, you were a Lawlabee 02:38:15 >.> 02:38:28 Sgeo: Fine fine, I was Gregor{,[A-Z\-].*} 02:38:38 shachaf: Y'know, I don't usually change nicks, I was Gregor for /years/ before I switched to Friendship X-D 02:38:40 Not really years. 02:38:42 You were GregorR for years. 02:38:53 GregorR-L was the best Gregor. 02:39:01 No, GregorR-W 02:39:03 He was read-write. 02:39:17 elliott: GregorWORM 02:43:43 elliott: I got the nick Gregor in September 2009. 02:43:46 So yes, years. 02:46:27 More like yearS. 02:46:30 Singular!!! 02:57:19 "Don't usually change nicks", you say? Lame. 02:57:31 Why, I dare say you've yet to use a nick for a decade! 02:59:25 IRL I have ... I've been called Gregor for well over a decade ;) 03:00:07 Yeah, but that doesn't matter. 03:03:47 And anyway, my nick is now RocketJSquirrel. 03:03:48 So I win. 03:03:51 Everything. 03:03:52 Forever. 03:04:11 Also available: MrPeabody 03:05:03 So is MisterPeabody, for that matter. 03:05:19 I've used this nick for a decade 03:05:28 Not all in the same place, admittedly 03:05:40 I've had this nick for life. 03:06:02 Well, do sgeo and Sgeo count as the same nick? 03:06:09 (Either way, it's a decade) 03:06:50 No, those are very different. 03:06:54 One is a valid UNIX username. 03:06:59 The other is an abomination. 03:07:08 (I used to go by Shachaf, I guess. But that's practically the same.) 03:07:30 My nick is about to have its 15th anniversary. 03:07:40 Yaaay. 03:08:04 I capitalize. For great justice. 03:08:33 Do UNIX usernames count as nicks? 03:08:44 'cuz my username has been "gregor" for well over a decade too X-D 03:08:50 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeabomination. 03:09:33 * pikhq_ has also been using this for the majority of his life 03:12:09 I've been called "Elliott" my entire life!!! 03:12:42 elliott: My similar statement was already vetoed. 03:13:05 You haven't been called RocketJSquirrel your entire life. 03:13:09 Totally different. 03:13:18 elliott: I made a similar statement about /Gregor/ X-D 03:14:47 -!- Sgeabomination has changed nick to Sgeo. 03:16:08 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:21:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:21:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:22:34 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:43:42 -!- graue has joined. 03:43:50 hey folks 03:45:05 OK 03:52:09 graue! 03:52:15 You're practically anti-scary. 03:52:22 hooray! 03:52:31 neat 03:54:21 random question: has anyone ever heard of a female-identified person inventing an esolang or writing a program in one? 03:54:29 because i feel like this community is all dudes 03:56:34 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:57:02 i wonder if there's even like a token counterexample 03:58:47 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:59:50 -!- Jafet has joined. 04:01:07 graue: Lenore Blum co-created the BSS machine 04:01:29 It's not really esoteric in that it is hypothetical 04:01:34 is that on esowiki? 04:02:16 It's in academia 04:02:41 i'm reading about it on that other wiki now 04:03:14 If you haven't figured it out by now, my answer is no 04:03:31 right 04:03:46 Females tend to have different concepts of weirdness than males 04:03:58 well, i think what it is really, even more than that 04:04:10 is that the whole field of computing has a gender imbalance problem 04:04:22 So if one of them created a language, it would have the potential to be really, really esoteric 04:04:25 Dr. Robotnik made the Mean Bean Machine. 04:04:25 It's not really esoteric in that it is a Puyo Puyo game. 04:04:47 you sayin' dr. robotnik uses the ladies room these days, or what? 04:05:09 Jafet: ah i misunderstood where you were going with that 04:05:12 I don't know, i jsut compied what WIkipedia said it was. 04:05:13 Languages in academia tend to not be classified as esoteric for some reason 04:05:29 well, we have an article on P'' 04:05:43 and stuff on tag machines and minsky machines and of course, UTMs 04:05:44 Yes, but does it call P'' an esolang? 04:05:47 it could be relevant 04:05:48 no 04:06:00 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:06:15 i'd certainly consider fractran an esolang 04:06:18 Also I just read about the BSS machine without looking at the lines above that. 04:06:24 Esolangs are languages created for recreational purposes, I suppose 04:06:29 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:06:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:07:34 Perhaps the ladies tend to not consider this activity recreational 04:08:04 I just enjoy the puzzles 04:08:18 started an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alchemy today because it doesn't have one 04:08:19 yeah, it's a brainteaser really 04:08:26 like doing crossword puzzles but for computer scientists 04:08:31 this isn't a particularly tricky language, but fun anyways 04:09:23 got it functioning in a few hours haha, but I need to contact the creator to work out a few uncertanties 04:09:39 ahaha, i love how it calls exceptions "explosions" 04:10:00 and deletes all files in the same folder, whaaat 04:10:08 I haven't put that part in 04:10:21 though it kinda makes sense for doing 'chemistry' 04:10:37 yeah 04:10:40 huh 04:10:50 so my C already parses input and performs all the right actions 04:11:01 i just showed my sortle quine to a girl i had over (what got me thinking about the gender imbalance in the esolang community) 04:11:03 well, I just need to fill in the few lines of code for the Reaction Processes 04:11:09 she's a chemist, i wonder if she would dig this language 04:11:14 haha 04:11:23 I have Project, Fuse, and Cerate working 04:11:27 the others are trivial 04:11:35 the framework is pretty much all complete 04:11:40 Put it in, but jsut always remember to store untested programs in subfodler fume_hood. 04:11:51 yeah haha 04:12:34 -!- itidus21 has joined. 04:12:46 what a funny language 04:12:52 I just need to ask evincar about some of the other reactions, and the pre-defined elements 04:13:33 cause (to be decided) from 4 years ago ain't gonna show up in the Wiki unless I ask 04:13:49 you could just make it up and edit the wiki 04:14:39 true, but I wanna see if he has an opinion first 04:15:46 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:16:52 -!- itidus20 has joined. 04:18:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:18:59 -!- kmc has joined. 04:19:55 -!- itidus22 has joined. 04:20:20 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:21:27 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:22:11 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:24:18 -!- itidus20 has joined. 04:25:06 shadwick: i keep getting you mixed up with shachaf 04:25:25 tell me some random interesting fact about yourself so i'll remember the difference 04:25:55 hm, I bet shachaf has a comp sci degreee 04:25:57 I do not 04:26:02 shadwick is secretly a candle. 04:26:04 Hence the "wick". 04:26:09 how did you know?! 04:26:10 Also, I have no comp sci degree. 04:26:19 it's a sensative topic 04:26:29 ah, ok. so that's not a difference haha 04:26:38 i don't have a CS degree either 04:26:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:26:51 is shachaf Canadian> 04:27:07 That depends on what you mean by "Canadian". 04:27:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:27:31 ok, let's be more specific; a resident of Canada 04:27:45 -!- itidus22 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:27:46 I've *been* to Canada... 04:27:50 hahah 04:27:52 I used to live pretty nearby. 04:27:58 Washington> 04:28:08 s/>/?/ ugh 04:28:14 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:28:22 I used to live there, yes. 04:28:29 -!- elliott has joined. 04:28:39 elliott: graue isn't scary! 04:28:44 graue is a like a teddy bear. 04:29:31 o_O 04:31:24 graue: Are you scary? 04:31:27 nope 04:32:34 he's just trying to lure you in 04:32:37 lower your defenses 04:33:25 You are unlikely to be eaten by a graue. 04:33:43 unless you're an onion 04:33:54 elliott is an onion. 04:33:58 Maybe that's why. 04:34:03 that would explain it, yes 04:34:57 Speaking of being an onion, is "graue", in fact, derived from "grue"? 04:36:10 no 04:36:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:36:39 it was a random word that popped into my head, probably 10+ years ago now 04:36:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:36:51 i since found out that it is a form of the german adjective for "grey" 04:37:06 but that was not the intent either 04:40:38 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:45:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:46:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:46:32 -!- augur has joined. 04:50:08 03:54:21: random question: has anyone ever heard of a female-identified person inventing an esolang or writing a program in one? 04:50:08 there have been a few in here over the years, so technically yes; I suspect the obscurity of the community amplifies the unfortunate demographics of computing in general 04:51:20 What has fax done? 04:52:06 whether there "have been a few" is what i was wondering; i realized i could not think of any 04:52:57 yeah Razor-X/Sukoshi, Madoka-Kaname and fax are the ones I can think of 04:53:29 fax is female? 04:59:50 Are all emerald grue, or are all emeralds actually bleen instead? 05:00:13 they're bleen 05:00:15 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:00:17 except for the yelple ones 05:01:10 Magenquoise is my favourite colour. 05:01:35 Is that a proper colour? 05:01:46 elliott: Well? 05:01:49 elliott: Is it a proper colour? 05:04:03 elliott, do you have a CS degree? 05:04:15 nope 05:04:23 CS° 05:04:29 well that's just shameful 05:04:30 zzo38: do you have a CS degree? 05:04:34 It's a combination of C° and the well-known S° 05:04:38 elliott doesn't have a CS degree [[Category:Shameful]] 05:04:49 elliott: No, I don't have. Sorry 05:04:52 graue: Do you have a CS degree? 05:04:59 no, but i'll soon have a mathematics degree 05:05:03 close enough right? 05:05:19 graue: Close enough for what purpose? 05:05:28 avoiding shame 05:05:33 as if the lowly practicality of mathematics can stand up to the True Art of pure computer science 05:05:47 oh, whatever, more like vice versa 05:05:53 -!- Deewiant has joined. 05:06:01 that's the joke :( 05:06:07 i know :) 05:06:25 i think Deewiant might actually have a CS degree! our saviour at last 05:06:40 Some people said it isn't science and doesn't have to do with computers; that is like saying astronomy is about telescopes. 05:06:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:07:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:07:38 "some people" is dijkstra's most famous alias 05:08:04 i like how dijkstra has three of the most common loop variables in his name in order 05:08:37 whenever i see his name i think of nested for-loops 05:08:48 * Sgeo puts graue in a denest 05:08:50 i wish i wrote depth-four loops so I could use "s" as the next variable 05:08:58 but I don't, four is too much for me 05:09:01 what's a denest? 05:09:13 graue, some CL macro I came across recently 05:10:22 http://lisp-editor.berlios.de/autodoc/Package_DENEST.html 05:11:26 too lispy for me to understand at the moment 05:13:05 Some people have describe my "Ibtlfmm" idea as something like combine Haskell with Lisp; it is something like that. But really my idea something like a few stuff from Haskell, Lisp, LLVM, and a few others. 05:14:25 (denest (dolist (i '(1 2 3))) (dolist (j '(4 5 6))) (format t "~a ~a" i j)) becomes 05:14:36 zzo38: didn't you say that yesterday and the day before :p 05:14:54 elliott: What timezone? 05:14:58 good question 05:15:02 i'm not sure which one i'm in 05:15:08 (dolist (i '(1 2 3)) (dolist (j '(4 5 6)) (format t "~a ~a" i j))) 05:15:27 So with denest, you don't have to have the rest of the body physically contained within the macro dolist 05:15:57 elliott: Use Astrolog or similar software to figure out what timezone you are currently in. 05:16:20 * Sgeo assumes there are easier ways to determine timezones 05:16:44 Sgeo: Yes, if you have GPS, you can just look it up in a map after you know your location from GPS. 05:16:57 you could ask a man on the street, but at this hour he might be drunk 05:17:08 * Sgeo was thinking that it's plausible to know location without knowing timezone 05:17:10 zzo38: i know where i am 05:17:10 but then... what's "this hour"? we come back to the question of timezones 05:17:16 and i know what timezone the ground is in 05:17:20 but i'm not sure what timezone i'm in 05:17:32 you are in the one that the ground is in 05:17:50 Is your position somehow not synchronized with the ground? 05:18:05 graue: that's not true at all! 05:18:12 what's jetlag, if not a mismatch between ground timezone and head timezone? 05:18:14 Is elliott picking at the idea of a human being in a timezone? 05:18:35 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 05:18:41 Suddenly it becomes clear. 05:18:45 depends what you mean by picking 05:18:47 I don't think Astrolog will help 05:18:50 Well, you can use UTC times, or local timezone, or solar time, or sidereal time, or something else. 05:19:36 Sgeo: I think it will help; but GPS will work better, if you have map of timezones. 05:19:41 Or he could use the time zone which best maps to his sleep schedule. 05:19:52 zzo38, astrolog would have to be somewhat psychic. 05:20:15 Said time zone has a very confusing mapping with UTC. 05:20:20 UTC+elliott. 05:20:34 pikhq_: Yes that is another way 05:20:53 Sgeo: You would have to look out the window and figure out what matches it best 05:21:13 elliott is the best mathematical constant. 05:21:20 it's the only constant that isn't constant, for one 05:21:21 I'm pretty sure things like the sun don't actually correspond to elliott-time. 05:21:31 elliott, fine structure constant? 05:21:42 Of unknown constanticity. 05:21:45 iirc 05:21:57 O, I understand. And I know how to do it: Use an alarm clock. 05:22:43 You're going to attempt to obliterate the phenomenon that is elliott-time? 05:23:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:24:08 elliott: "elliott" is here being used as a shorthand for the result of applying elliott :: Timestamp -> Offset to the current time. 05:24:21 (The person who wrote Astrolog once said he had a dream of a new feature which teleports you to a location which it charts. But it doesn't do that of course.) 05:24:32 I'm not entirely sure the function is total. 05:25:25 pikhq_: elliott :: Behaviour Offset, man. 05:25:54 reactive-banana is British? 05:26:33 Actually, I think it's elliott :: IO Offset 05:27:04 Are you trying to say that elliott-human is not a value? 05:27:21 Because if it was, you shouldn't need the IO 05:27:26 err 05:27:30 elliottHuman 05:27:38 theelliotthuman 05:27:44 OK fine, *Behaviour p Offset, now it's Sodium. 05:28:01 Well, of course elliott-human is not a value, there is no instance of Num for IO Offset. 05:28:26 * Sgeo is a bit Lisp-addled 05:28:32 err, lispAddled 05:29:48 * coppro is a an asshat 05:29:53 s/a // 05:30:26 ? 05:30:42 me too! 05:31:11 i may not have majored in CS, but at least i'm a major asshole! 05:31:31 that's our motto 05:31:38 -!- elliott has set topic: i may not have majored in CS, but at least i'm a major asshole! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 05:40:58 Sgeo: see my most recent post to a-b 05:42:22 Just humorous, or scam attempt, possibly based on "a", implying weird things if ... hmm 05:42:50 erm, "an" 05:43:23 I should shutup 05:43:29 How's BlogNomic doing these days? 05:46:40 coppro: why's that make you an asshat 05:47:00 elliott: because it's worse than a suffusion of yellow 05:47:19 coppro: hmm, why? 05:47:29 the courts basically get to decide what the exception is 05:47:37 they can always just decide it's something that will never ever happen 05:47:42 like "after five thousand billion years this rule doesn't apply" 05:54:25 Could the judge use it to seize power? 05:56:31 appeals 05:59:19 Unless there are exceptions in the appeals rules? 06:02:35 pull another one, lindrum 06:03:54 ! 06:03:58 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Lindrum. 06:04:08 (Note: I am not actually Lindrum) 06:05:27 Wasn't Lindrum heard from relatively recently? 06:08:47 http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/dictator-lindrum wow almost 20 years ago 06:10:01 NomicWorld was 20 years ago. 06:10:21 Agora was 19. 06:10:54 -!- graue has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:11:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:11:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:11:56 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:12:22 Hi ais523 06:13:14 hi Lindrum 06:17:56 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to gTwo2002. 06:18:13 -!- itidus21 has joined. 06:18:21 -!- gTwo2002 has changed nick to asiekierka. 06:21:05 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:24:35 -!- Lindrum has changed nick to Sgeo. 06:25:12 Might picolisp be more suited as a nomic than CL, considering that Picolisp functions (except for primitives) are transparent? 06:28:14 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:25 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:35:08 hey dudes 06:35:35 the hilbert curve has the interesting property that if you take it as a sequence, values close to each other in sequence will also be close in the 2d space mapping 06:35:43 any idea if there is a pattern for which the reverse is true? 06:36:53 isn't it true for ... the hilbert curve? 06:38:35 No? 06:40:12 i'm thinking no too, but then who knows, it's math 06:40:27 though now that i think about it i realize the points don't have to be connected and i can probably arrange a pattern that meets the criteria i want 06:40:40 elliott: look at, say, the four points in the center of the hilbert curve 06:40:49 they are not sequentially near each other, in fact they are very far 06:40:54 right 06:40:55 so a -> b but not b -> a 06:41:04 i was hoping for a case of b -> a but i'm thinking probably not 06:42:43 on the other hand, since things needn't be connected, i'm looking for something a bit looser: a sequence of points for which all the points in any 4x4 (?) area fall within ~40 of each other, or thereabouts, and that may just be possible 06:45:06 -!- itidus21 has joined. 06:54:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:55:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:55:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 06:55:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:56:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 06:58:33 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:11:06 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:14:12 * Sgeo must make a Common Lisp alternative to BYOND 07:16:25 i 07:17:31 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:30:35 How hard could it be? 07:30:36 >.> 07:48:10 >.> indeed 07:55:31 @tell oerjan remind me to ask you the question i was going to ask 07:55:31 Consider it noted. 08:00:10 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:01:58 I should slepep 08:02:20 Oh, monqy tswett update 08:02:25 hi 08:31:27 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:00:25 I was reading the random page for Optimism, which is an OISC, with the instruction being "ADDOV". Anyone know what that operation do? The page doesn't explicitly say so. It takes 3 operands and I know it'll end up adding the 1st and 2nd, and possibly jumping to the 3rd (an address) 09:00:34 anyone just know what the condition for the jump is>? 09:13:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:14:18 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:18:23 -!- MoALTz has joined. 09:34:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:41:28 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 09:46:54 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:47:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:49:26 -!- derdon has joined. 10:10:17 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 10:12:58 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:24:19 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:28:37 09:00:25: I was reading the random page for Optimism, which is an OISC, with the instruction being "ADDOV". Anyone know what that operation do? The page doesn't explicitly say so. It takes 3 operands and I know it'll end up adding the 1st and 2nd, and possibly jumping to the 3rd (an address) 10:28:42 09:00:34: anyone just know what the condition for the jump is>? 10:29:09 by the name and the "Always goes to the next instruction, even on overflow" comment, i'd guess it jumps when the addition overflows. 10:34:30 What happens with both source and jump FF? 10:34:35 I need sleepepepeppppppppp 10:35:57 I'm thinking a literal FF will happen. 10:36:11 oerjan: thanks, dunno how I missed that 10:36:59 a literal fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu, more like 10:41:30 "The author claims that his calculator does just-in-time compilation. What would you do to prove or disprove his claim without attempting to unravel the source?" 10:44:11 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 10:44:20 RocketJSquirrel: is that a comment on your ioccc program? :P 10:44:41 Indeed. 10:44:50 I'm trying to decide if the reviewers actually read it or not ;) 10:47:26 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:49:27 well I like how easy Optimism was to write an interpreter for hahaa 10:50:11 I guess I'll create a Wiki account and add it to that page 10:58:59 -!- cswords__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:05:32 -!- shadwick has quit (Quit: Page closed). 11:20:07 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 11:20:38 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:20:47 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 11:21:04 -!- myndzi has joined. 11:40:59 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 11:43:54 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:45:45 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:49:49 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 11:53:04 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:18:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:19:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:59:36 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:02:46 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:07:02 `pastelogs code.*inherit 13:07:30 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:07:34 * oerjan drums fingers 13:07:40 No output. 13:07:43 argh 13:07:47 `pastelogs code.*inherit 13:08:03 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6146 13:11:22 -!- MoALTz has joined. 13:14:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:15:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:16:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:17:28 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:18:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:20:44 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:25:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:31:43 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:34:08 -!- MDude has joined. 13:49:40 -!- derdon has joined. 13:53:46 -!- nortti has joined. 13:56:26 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:57:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:40:35 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:40:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:47:45 myndzi: okay, you don't seem to be here any more, but let me try to answer your question anyway. 14:48:21 The Hilbert curve has the property that values close to each other in the domain are also close to each other in the range. In other words, the Hilbert curve is continuous. 14:49:11 You seem to be asking if there's a map like it, except its inverse is continuous. 14:50:20 So, the Hilbert curve is a continuous surjective map [0,1] -> [0,1]^2, and I think essentially we're looking for some sort of continuous map [0,1]^2 -> [0,1]. 14:51:36 There are tons of continuous *surjective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1]. Among them are f(x,y) = x, f(x,y) = y, f(x,y) = xy, and f(x,y) = (x + y)/2. 14:51:53 As for continuous *injective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1], I'm pretty sure none exist. 14:56:15 It looks like the continuous injective map is what you want. But since there are none, you'll have to make do with some approximation. 15:47:58 -!- augur has joined. 15:49:05 "I’ve got a mirror of my sccs repository at github." haha wut 15:49:15 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: I’ve got a mirror of my sccs repository at github. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 16:05:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:11:24 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:11:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 16:11:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:12:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:15:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:19:59 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:53:00 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:03:13 -!- itidus21 has joined. 17:24:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:43:14 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:48:53 -!- Deewiant has joined. 18:00:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:08:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:09:12 Hello 18:16:12 from another channel: http://i.imgur.com/bFB2A.gif 18:20:38 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:27:12 -!- nortti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:57 -!- Ngevd has joined. 18:33:05 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:48:57 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb. 18:57:09 Watch championofbirds.com Wednesday for the GREATEST INTERVIEW EVER. 19:12:14 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:12:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:31:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:32:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:33:49 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:34:23 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:34:52 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:35:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit). 19:36:23 wow, http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html is really out of date 19:36:41 it mentions GPLv3, but most of its comments about other licenses are written from the point of view of a world where GPLv3 doesn't exit 19:36:43 *exist 19:36:59 e.g. calling 4-clause BSD GPL-incompatible (it is compatible with v3 but not v2) 19:37:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:43:11 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 19:43:19 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 19:43:19 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 19:49:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:31 -!- monqy has joined. 19:54:57 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 20:02:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:05:34 As for continuous *injective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1], I'm pretty sure none exist. 20:05:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:05:55 by compactness of [0,1]^2, the inverse would automatically be continuous. 20:06:37 Hello! 20:06:46 hi Taneb 20:07:52 and then look at any circle inside it - it must map to an infinite subset of [0,1] which is connected if you remove a point (like the circle itself). but no such subset exists. 20:08:43 ^celebrate 20:08:43 \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/ 20:08:56 ...disappointing. 20:08:58 we have a myndzi deficit. 20:09:00 myndzi isn't here 20:09:34 -!- elliott has joined. 20:09:38 (btw a similar theorem is true for any [0,1]^m to [0,1]^n with m > n, but that is much deeper.) 20:09:42 RocketJSquirrel: It's not SCCS. 20:09:51 RocketJSquirrel: It's SCCS as a generic term for any source control system. 20:09:52 (Invariance of Domain) 20:10:03 elliott: boring 20:10:44 -!- nortti has joined. 20:10:51 (No, I didn't have to logread to know where that was from.) 20:11:19 elliott: But nobody uses "SCCS" as a generic term anymore ... they use RCS or VCS. 20:11:43 RocketJSquirrel: Nobody uses libc4 any more, either. Unless I'm mistaken about the source, you shouldn't be surprised. 20:12:33 (He actually uses some static libc4/a.out systems by choice... which requires him to *maintain libc4*.) 20:13:36 10:41:30: "The author claims that his calculator does just-in-time compilation. What would you do to prove or disprove his claim without attempting to unravel the source?" 20:13:45 who are you/we talking about? 20:13:45 RocketJSquirrel: Congrats, you successfully befuddled the IOCCC organisers 20:14:08 Taneb: I HOEP I'M NOT TOO LATE: 20:14:09 | | | `\o/ | | | `\o/ | | | 20:14:09 /| |\ >\ | /| /| /< | /< /< /^\ 20:14:09 /`\ (_|\ 20:14:09 (_| |_) |_) 20:14:20 We have bodies! 20:14:22 Hurrah! 20:14:39 * oerjan is suddenly reminded of a certain scene in the akira manga 20:14:54 olsner: I'm talking about the author of http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/discount/ 20:15:08 (He actually uses some static libc4/a.out systems by choice... which requires him to *maintain libc4*.) // holy crap indeed O_O 20:15:09 Which contains the topic sentence 20:15:14 oerjan: You forgot to remind me. 20:15:28 RocketJSquirrel: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/libc/ 20:15:32 "portland or us" 20:15:42 elliott: However, that just makes me think that it's even more likely that he uses SCCS ;) 20:15:44 elliott: ah. well you weren't around when i read the message. 20:15:47 RocketJSquirrel: He's the maximally curmudgeonly Linux user! 20:17:20 Anyway, yes, it seems I befuddled the IOCCC. 20:17:25 "This program does shit. We have no idea why." 20:17:28 elliott: I like the "gl*bc" spelling. It's good to hide dirty words. 20:18:42 Really? Libc4? 20:19:00 hurr durr, my router is broken again... it's almost refusing to connect to anything 20:20:50 RocketJSquirrel: congratulations again :P 20:23:11 ais523: ugh, ping 20:23:18 I know not enough C to enter the IOCCC 20:23:22 elliott: pong 20:23:26 -!- shadwick has joined. 20:23:27 why the ping? why the ugh? 20:23:36 `welcome shadwick 20:31:31 -!- esowiki has joined. 20:31:31 -!- glogbot has joined. 20:31:32 -!- glogbackup has left. 20:31:33 -!- HackEgo has joined. 20:31:34 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:31:35 -!- esowiki has joined. 20:31:36 ais: I saw, but I have no idea why. 20:31:36 -!- esowiki has joined. 20:31:45 (I can give you the practical purpose I want this for if it's too abstract :P) 20:31:55 elliott: that's zzo38's barrier monad, isn't it. 20:31:58 oerjan: oh, and F a = Cofree ((->) a) 20:32:02 so it's definitely a comonad 20:32:06 -!- RocketJSquirrel has quit (Client Quit). 20:32:10 hey, you say every monad is the barrier monad! 20:32:10 random thought occured to me.. could a non-human sentient being learn to use a turing complete language? 20:32:20 i'm pretty sure his barrier thing had multiple constructors. 20:32:32 itidus21, probably 20:32:38 and if it could... would we become evil bastards and enslave the animals 20:32:41 FSVO sapient 20:32:54 Probably not 20:32:59 -!- RocketJSquirrel has joined. 20:33:04 Considering it's cheaper to use actual computers 20:33:04 its bad enough that we trap pigs in cages their whole lives just to get nicer food than soy 20:33:20 And you don't need to muck out computers very often. 20:33:25 training animals to program as slave programmers would be just worse 20:33:46 My bots may sometimes crash for literally no god damn reason ... 20:33:48 But at least I'm an IOCCC winner! 20:33:58 I suspect a bug in the framework they all use. 20:34:04 To do with line length or something. 20:34:08 A segfault. 20:34:12 elliott: well ok, a simplified barrier monad then 20:34:24 elliott: Presumably. 20:34:46 What's the barrier monad? 20:35:24 oerjan: THE BARRIER MONAD IS THE MOST COMPLEX MEANINGLESS JUMBLE IN EXISTENCE EVERYTHING IS A SIMPLIFIED BARRIER MONAD :P 20:35:25 `log [z]zo38>.*data Barrier 20:35:55 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9662806/is-there-any-haskell-land-equivalent-to-the-ruby-lands-bundler-et-al-and-if-n I like the part where this is a whiny blog post disguised as a question. 20:36:02 No output. 20:36:04 `log [z]zo38>.*data Barrier 20:36:17 2011-09-23.txt:20:12:26: OK. Barrier monads: data Barrier f b t = Unit t | Barrier f (b -> Barrier f b t) | Fail String; ("Fail String" is optional) 20:36:30 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 20:36:38 -!- Jafet has joined. 20:36:41 oh he had an extra argument 20:37:15 Yeah, that's totally different. 20:37:17 elliott: what a hipster programmer 20:37:44 RocketJSquirrel: while you're investigating, fix HackEgo's tendence to time out on commands after long delays ;P 20:37:45 hmm.. he must be a politician 20:38:23 * RocketJSquirrel shakes his fist at oerjan. 20:38:33 (delays after previous command, that is, not while waiting.) 20:39:10 `log [v]ehemently 20:39:14 anaCofree :: Functor h => (a -> b) -> (a -> h a) -> a -> Cofree h b 20:39:14 anaCofree g1 g2 = g1 &&& fmap (anaCofree g1 g2) . g2 >>> Cofree 20:39:14 Oh for goodness' sake... 20:39:16 2011-04-15.txt:01:56:50: elliott: you vehemently denied this 20:39:44 id &&& fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) . tailCofree >>> Cofree 20:39:53 X_X 20:40:53 elliott: insane opinion: all websites should be dark-text-on-light-background, so that when I prefer the reverse, I can just reverse-video the entire browser rather than changing for individual pages 20:41:25 -!- shadwick_ has joined. 20:42:58 i have a new theory on backups i call RAID 7 .. the basic idea is that you create a textfile list of all the filenames and directories on your disk, and store it online somewhere 20:43:15 why backup just the names? 20:43:30 because to be honest thats all you really care about 20:43:46 -!- shadwick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:43:50 err, typically the file contents are more important than the file names 20:43:58 -!- shadwick_ has changed nick to shadwick. 20:43:59 if the file isn't redownloadable 20:44:08 well... one must take into account that the internet is actually getting faster 20:44:26 itidus21: there are quite a few files I have that aren't stored online anywhere 20:44:29 that's what backups are /for/ 20:46:33 ais523: why are you arguing with the debate equivalent of fungot 20:46:34 elliott: have any of you guys! 20:46:38 OK, I lost the files, but all I need is ... linkedlist.c 20:47:16 We should really write a bot to replace itidus 20:47:20 elliott: because I don't pay enough attention to figure out personalities of people unless I've talked to them really lots 20:47:24 Then replace itidus with it 20:47:38 So that itidus can be boosted up the ranks 20:48:05 anaCofree x = Cofree (id x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) (tailCofree x)) 20:48:14 anaCofree x = Cofree (x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) (tailCofree x)) 20:48:28 anaCofree x@(Cofree (_,t)) = Cofree (x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) t) 20:48:35 the fundamental reason for the previous few posts with my id in them is that i am not actually here for the same reason as the others 20:48:42 foo x@(Cofree (_,t)) = Cofree (x, fmap foo t) 20:48:45 Finally. 20:49:40 well i sort of am, but i arrived here with really no understanding of compilers.. i didn't even realize there was any math behind it 20:49:41 anaCoffee, the categorically best coffee 20:50:44 i thought that the most difficult part would be deciding on reserved keywords and optimal assembly code equivalents of syntactical structures 20:51:07 that is quite literally what i thought 20:52:19 with 10% room for misrepresentation of myself 20:52:31 -!- shadwick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:54:28 and I am amused by FURscript 20:59:19 oerjan: btw I'm using this type to represent things of the form (f . foldl' g z) 20:59:32 because you can zip these so they run in tandem on a single list 20:59:36 so (/) <$> sumF <*> lengthF DTRT 20:59:54 I got to it by starting with this type (not discovered by me, other people have talked about it) 21:00:08 data Fold a b = forall s. Fold s (s -> a -> s) (s -> b) 21:00:20 and factoring out the existential; all we can do is plug in an a to get a new one, or convert it to a b, so 21:00:26 data Fold a b = Fold (a -> Fold a b) b 21:01:07 ah 21:02:06 oerjan: the problem with the Monad instance is that it destroys this by keeping around the original list, making it no better than just doing it the usual way :( 21:02:19 which I think is inherent, because you could decide what fold you're going to zip it with based on the final result of a previous one 21:02:37 which means folding the two in tandem and discarding the conses as you go is impossible 21:03:48 -!- cswords has joined. 21:15:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:15:24 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:16:51 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:17:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:18:30 elliott: why doesn't ! align="left" | work in my wiki table :( 21:22:14 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:22:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:25:37 oerjan: link? 21:25:51 i'm still in preview stage 21:26:57 oerjan: put the relevant table on the sandbox? 21:27:35 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:28:53 actually i did something earlier today and discarded the attempt, which i'm now trying to redo. 21:29:10 ok 21:31:18 :t first 21:31:19 forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c d. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d) 21:31:41 it occurs to me that a Fold that only works on non-empty lists would be useful. 21:31:45 so that you could define things like first 21:32:00 data Fold a b = Fold (a -> (b, Fold a b)) -- hey, it's the automaton arrow. 21:32:26 elliott: ok i saved it as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qdeql#Example_structure , everything except the alignment of most of the dark cells now looks as i want it. 21:32:57 hm why does \\/\/\\/\// have a funny background 21:33:12 i feel you are sorely misusing th elements somewhat 21:33:34 although i'm not sure what it's meant to look like, so 21:34:10 elliott: i want to mark the cells that have non-default values. i tried bold but - and = don't get distinguished enough with it 21:34:33 also i _still_ would like the left column title cells to be left aligned, i think. 21:34:41 ok, I'll fix the left column 21:34:48 what if I defined a class that just did the background without the bolding or centring? 21:35:04 the bolding is nice though. 21:35:26 i don't like the idea of non-heading cells that look identical to headings :( 21:35:32 well i guess not bolding will distinguish it from that 21:36:06 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:36:40 oerjan: ! style="text-align: left" | works 21:36:45 oh 21:36:47 oerjan: though I feel you want right alignment 21:36:49 not left 21:36:55 considering how wide it is 21:37:25 oh. i didn't want it to get confused with the actual data inside 21:37:36 well perhaps 21:37:48 there's an awful lot of whitespace with left-alignment (I only left-aligned two rows to test because I'm lazy) 21:38:01 -!- MoALTz has joined. 21:38:23 I love how you can tell if elliott's in the channel by the ratio of message lines to join/quit lines. 21:38:23 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:38:54 hm i suppose centering the left column isn't _that_ bad. 21:39:07 make it less wide instead 21:39:15 change <]> and beginning of . 21:39:15 to 21:39:20 <]>
and beginning of . 21:39:21 or such 21:39:30 wat 21:40:06 what 21:40:29 but that makes the size there different from all the other rows 21:40:40 oh hm 21:41:12 well it's just that "<]> and beginning of ." is stretching that column really wide 21:41:29 JSON.org License Literally Says it "shall be used for Good, not Evil" (java.dzone.com) 21:41:37 Reddit Literally Discovers "the same things, Over and Over Again" 21:42:04 <]>; start of . 21:42:11 would be shorter 21:43:13 i think we need Tufte to redesign your tables. 21:43:22 you don't say :P 21:44:17 elliott, forgive what I am about to do. 21:44:21 Oi, Madoka-Kaname. 21:44:34 oerjan: QUICK BAN HIM 21:44:49 wattattat 21:49:58 -!- augur has joined. 21:50:26 argh i put the style in the wrong place now 21:51:19 \o/ 21:51:31 generate the wikicode with a perl script 21:51:56 RocketJSquirrel: [[The license includes this restriction: "The software shall be used for good, not evil." If your conscience cannot live with that, then choose a different package.]] 21:52:08 RocketJSquirrel: GOD OK you're a javascripter, you must come across Crockford IRL occasionally. 21:52:10 PLEASE punch him. 21:52:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:52:47 elliott: it's just doing it once, then repeating n and . in vim 21:52:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:53:00 but i put it in the code tag instead of at the ! 21:53:55 yay it worked 21:54:11 yay 21:54:45 now everyone can understand the qdeql translation! 21:54:53 * oerjan cackles more madly than usual 21:55:47 hm i think there's a cell that should be grey 21:57:13 RocketJSquirrel: GOD OK you're a javascripter, you must come across Crockford IRL occasionally. // I haven't, in fact. But yes, he's a dummy. 21:57:52 RocketJSquirrel: Well, find him. 21:57:55 Find him, and punch him. 21:58:14 istr someone noticing that terms like that are enough to make it incompatible with gpl 21:58:32 oerjan: That makes it incompatible with everything. 21:58:34 in other words, gpl mandates that evil must be allowed. 21:58:48 It amounts to "you can't do anything with this, I might sue you". 21:59:05 oerjan: Well that's obvious, see DFSG#6 "No discrimination against fields of endeavor, like commercial use." 22:03:19 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:06:26 elliott, oerjan: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/Flower_opened_8869.html 22:07:58 RocketJSquirrel: I'VE READ THAT A KAJILLION TIMES 22:08:12 Yeah but it's relevant ;) 22:08:19 Somebody is even worse at licensing than Crockford. 22:08:30 At least they were precise 22:08:52 oerjan: hey italicising the 7 in 7n is a sin 22:09:05 oh hm 22:09:17 (s*i*n, of course) 22:09:30 on the positive side, i now know someone is reading my edits. 22:10:09 i review all the edits on the wiki. it is my duty 22:10:35 me too, although it isn't. 22:11:20 oerjan: hm is "Can you understand now?" a zzoism 22:11:50 elliott: you got it :) 22:12:37 :D 22:13:40 i just had this eerie feeling of being just as incomprehensible. 22:14:55 i usually get a vague gist of what zzo38 is saying. 22:15:01 however i have no idea how the translation of bf to qdeql works. 22:15:07 so... you win! 22:15:20 STILL NO IDEA? 22:15:44 oerjan: i feel compelled to point out i also have no idea how the underload minimisation works. or /// being TC. 22:16:41 i think the qdeql translation is a little simpler, well maybe except for the factory. 22:17:01 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:18:19 did you read my discussion with graue? 22:18:27 in the logs? 22:18:29 yes 22:18:30 i haven't logread yet. 22:18:39 it was a couple days ago 22:19:00 oerjan: oh 22:19:11 oerjan: well do you mean the discussion when i was there? 22:19:19 i don't recall if you were 22:19:28 this is not helpful :P 22:20:33 well anyway i explained to graue how it started with the epiphany that \\/\// would skip an arbitrary number of 255 0 0 copies, and that the factory grew out of how to replace the zero lost at the end of that loop. 22:20:45 yes, i remember that 22:20:58 ok 22:26:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:26:31 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:27:17 -!- variable has changed nick to const. 22:35:38 ooh 22:35:41 leap second comin' our day 22:36:01 not for some months, surely? 22:36:08 june 22:37:22 someones playing mario music on a piano. why should you care? i'm not entirely sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eKxxYlHbJs 23:01:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:01:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:16:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:17:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:17:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 23:17:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:26:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:53 ais: Why are you not here. 23:37:47 elliott: I assume you are a secondary expert, so tell me, web o' flies could presumably be used to add save states to a game (just replay up to a given point to "load"), no? 23:55:26 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).