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00:30:25 <elliott> ais523: you don't happen to use Thunderbird as a feed reader?
00:33:43 <ais523> which is decent once you've memorised it's slightly unintuitive controls
00:38:40 <pikhq> If you can breathe underwater, a few months. If you can't, the remainder of your days.
00:39:13 <pikhq> That's not walking now is it?
00:40:18 <ais523> no you couldn't, no legroom in those things
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00:42:48 <elliott> Hey, hiato is in #haskell.
00:47:13 <elliott> m (→Examples: return for int func is nec in c std.)
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01:10:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Are there any others than Bitlbee?
01:10:47 <RocketJSquirrel> Upon further observation, bitlbee isn't just a service, it's an available server.
01:11:23 <RocketJSquirrel> Come to think of it, all I really want is a IM proxy, it doesn't need to be over IRC. An IM BNC is what I want.
01:11:34 <elliott> It's an incredibly leaky abstraction, and the "one big administrative/contact list room" model is just weird.
01:11:40 <ais523> to hide your identity?
01:11:57 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Most of the IM services I use suck when you have multiple connections.
01:12:00 <elliott> Especially since "nobody in this room sees anything I say apart from the things I prefix with their name; also only I see anybody else saying anything" is a really, really disorienting thing for an IRC channel to be.
01:12:17 <elliott> ...and I won't even get started on how painful it makes group conversations in protocols that don't have explicit "named" group conversations.
01:12:22 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: You can't see your outgoing messages from other connections, and frequently even miss incoming messages if another connection has been active more recently.
01:12:39 <ais523> why do people use IM for anything, again?
01:12:50 <ais523> AFAICT it solves the same problem as IRC, but worse
01:13:26 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: IRC is channel-oriented, IM is person-oriented. IRC could be a perfectly workable IM protocol, but the clients are tailored for a different kind of communication.
01:13:43 <RocketJSquirrel> Which is why Pidgin is a shitty IRC client and XChat is a shitty IM client.
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01:21:08 <elliott> ais523: what's the most serious thing I could possibly do to Esolang?
01:21:31 <ais523> hmm, hard to think of, I guess
01:21:47 <ais523> some sort of big combined interpreter that does amazing things
01:21:51 <ais523> or a large standard library project
01:22:00 <elliott> well, boring people would expect me to do something silly to Esolang today
01:22:21 <elliott> so I have to do something very serious and bureaucratic instead
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01:39:38 <zzo38> What things, specifically?
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01:45:20 <elliott> zzo38: that's what i was asking!
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02:11:15 <elliott> shachaf: How many IO concepts are there in Haskell?
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02:16:54 <ais523> elliott: concepts? aren't those a C++ thing?
02:17:07 * elliott is just repeating a stupid question from #haskell.
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02:32:06 <olsner> "<elliott> olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" <-- I'm already bathing with the snakes, so why not?
02:33:08 <olsner> but so far, I don't think I'm doing anything that's actually not possible in C++03, just a matter of convenience
02:33:29 <elliott> oh, that was just a random noooo
02:34:04 <olsner> I don't get what it was referring to, but ok
02:35:32 <olsner> elliott: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:36:21 <olsner> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK
02:38:19 <elliott> HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
02:44:02 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
02:45:16 <zzo38> How do I remove the maximize and close buttons in Windows? I never use them anyways, but sometimes I accidentally click them when I meant to click minimize.
02:45:47 <elliott> you could use a shortcut for minimise too
02:45:54 <olsner> remove Windows and all will be solved
02:46:22 <elliott> zzo38: http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1233910418 may help
02:46:27 <zzo38> olsner: Yes, that is one way; but that would require a lot of work and I would have to install everything from the start all at first and so on
02:47:22 <olsner> nah, none of that is required to just remove it
02:47:59 <zzo38> Well, yes; but if I remove Windows and then do not put any other operating systems, then the computer won't work anymore
02:48:23 <elliott> ah, it won't help, no solutions there
02:48:56 <olsner> hmm, maybe not, but at least it will not give you more problems
03:08:24 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 1 04:08:22
03:14:21 <RocketJSquirrel> QUICK anybody know how to do an exception to a rewriterule .*?
03:17:47 <zzo38> What does it mean, "How many IO concepts are there in Haskell"?
03:18:08 <ais523> the point was that it it was a stupid question and so people were laughing at it
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04:35:06 <zzo38> HPDF implements some typesetting algorithm, but I should want it to work with DVI as well.
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06:52:09 <ais523> gah, audiophiles: I just observed an argument on proggit where (possibly as a strawman) the argument came up that WAV was better than FLAC because FLAC was digital and WAV stored the uncompressed /analog/ signal
06:52:19 <ais523> but I think the most absurd statements have been edited out
06:53:33 <pikhq> That is wrong in far too many ways.
06:55:05 <ais523> I don't know; unlike most such arguments, it doesn't show ignorance of how compression works
06:55:15 <ais523> it's a different misconception entirely
06:55:30 <myndzi> well i guess technically anyway
06:55:33 <myndzi> if the wav came from a cd
06:55:48 <myndzi> it stores enough information to reproduce the exact analog signal up to about 44.1khz
06:55:51 <ais523> then the CD wasn't analog, because CDs are digital
06:56:00 <myndzi> er, 22.05? i sorta forget
06:56:06 <ais523> and, hmm, are you sure?
06:56:14 <myndzi> there's an interesting theorem about it
06:56:17 <ais523> you have to take quantization of amplitude into account, not just frequency
06:56:20 <myndzi> one sec, lemme find it
06:56:29 <ais523> the theorem is only to do with frequency, if you're thinking of the same one as me
06:57:22 <myndzi> ah yes, that's what i was looking for
06:57:32 <pikhq> The quantization error of CDs is utterly unnoticable with dithering, though.
06:57:51 <ion> At a 44.1 kHz sample rate you’ll be able to store a good 22.05 kHz square wave or very bad waveforms in its neighborhood downwards.
06:58:26 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, which is relevant in arguments about analog losslessness
06:58:27 <pikhq> ion: At a 44.1 kHz sample rate you'll be able to store a 22.05 kHz frequency exactly, modulo quantization.
06:58:39 <ais523> I'm entirely willing to believe that it's impossible for the human ear to detect
06:59:01 <ais523> (unless the recording was made on the most sensitive microphone in existence, it /is/ possible for a machine to detect)
06:59:28 <myndzi> i suppose i should have said "approaching exact" heh
06:59:30 <myndzi> been a while since i read about it
06:59:39 <myndzi> but to be exact it would have to be calculated out to infinity or some such
06:59:56 <pikhq> It would actually be exact if your samples were real numbers.
07:00:00 * ais523 vaguely wonders how accurate the most sensitive microphone in existence is
07:00:15 <ais523> and how accurate the A-to-D, if any, it's attached to is
07:00:15 <pikhq> The *only* inexactness is coming from the use of bound samples.
07:00:43 <ais523> pikhq: yes, in case someone decides to send a delta function at you or something
07:01:19 <myndzi> yes well, i don't have a firm enough understanding to discuss it, i was only pointing out that even though it's stored digitally, the information is essentially analog ;)
07:01:21 <myndzi> but then so would flac
07:01:40 <myndzi> and obviously this is not to support his argument, just to explain that one might see where he got confused
07:02:07 <pikhq> Anyways. CDDA is about as good at retaining fidelity of the audio as an 8K scan of film would be at retaining the video fidelity.
07:02:20 <pikhq> That is to say, if anyone says they can do better they're probably lying.
07:03:00 <myndzi> sample all the kilohertz
07:04:45 <ais523> pikhq: hmm, I'm pretty sure there are screens that can show at 4320p with it still possible to make out the individual pixels
07:04:54 <ais523> probably not very many, but I think they exist
07:05:14 <ais523> so it'd be an accurate representation of the film, but perceptably deficient for representing the original scene
07:05:27 <myndzi> that's kind of an incomplete statement
07:05:32 <myndzi> since it rather depends on the physical size of the screen
07:05:46 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, and said screens are probably big enough that you are a mere 3 pixels tall.
07:05:47 <ais523> myndzi: that's my point, there's no limit to how large you could make the screen in theory
07:05:59 <ais523> pikhq: they wouldn't have to be /that/ big
07:06:14 <myndzi> sure, but if we're talking about fidelity, you can't exactly expect "greater than 1:1" :P
07:06:45 <pikhq> But they'd have to be so large you're basically incapable of seeing the whole screen if you can see the individual pixels.
07:07:50 <ais523> whether you'd see the whole thing or make out pixels would depend on how far you were standing from it
07:08:04 <ais523> I'm imagining something around the size of a cinema screen would be enough to make out the pixels if you stood close to it
07:08:21 <ais523> (although obviously your head would block the projector if you tried that on an /actual/ cinema screen, so it'd have to use a different principle
07:08:34 <pikhq> Reverse projection cinema?
07:09:15 <ais523> yep, that could work, and IIRC actually exists, but is quite wasteful of space
07:09:25 <ais523> perhaps you could have two audiences, one on each side of the screen
07:10:44 <pikhq> It'd be a pretty bad idea unless you've got a particularly strange theater.
07:11:31 <pikhq> Perhaps if the seating is an actual stadium.
07:24:56 <ais523> <hypermog> Many, many 3D games were done using less.
07:25:08 <ais523> I initially interpreted that as referring to less(1)
07:25:21 <ais523> and thought that that was indeed quite a primitive tool to make a 3D game with
07:27:40 <ais523> can you actually edit things with less, apart from telling it to run vi?
07:27:58 <ais523> or would it just be a case of repeatedly paging through /dev/random until you found the source you needed?
07:30:57 <pikhq> less doesn't have an insert mode, so.
07:31:16 <pikhq> Yeah, can't edit with it.
07:32:54 <pikhq> Unless some smartass does ln -s vi /bin/less
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07:38:22 <zzo38> I have been told that LP record is better quality than CD and computer and audio tape and so on, but only the first time it is played. After that, it degrades.
07:39:38 <pikhq> They like to tell you that.
07:39:51 <pikhq> A CD has more dynamic range.
07:40:06 <pikhq> (not that it matters much in this age of 1 dB dynamic range)
07:43:16 <pikhq> Basically the only argument in favor of vinyl is that it may have pleasant artifacts.
07:46:32 <zzo38> The other argument in favor of vinyl is the simplicity of a record player; no computer is required to decode anything.
07:47:14 <pikhq> Not an argument in favor of the format's *quality*, but certainly an argument in favor of its use in certain contexts.
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07:48:09 <zzo38> Yes, I agree; the argument I mention has nothing to do with quality.
07:49:44 <zzo38> Before on this channel, I have discussed annotation monads a bit; but now I think of coannotation comonads as well.
07:53:44 <zzo38> Which makes Maybe to be the annotation monad of () and it makes non-empty list comonad to be the coannotation comonad of [()]
07:59:14 <fizzie> Re blocking the screen, there are also some very acute-angle projectors nowadays. Can't seem to find the right Google keywords, but there was an article; it was something ridiculous like 15 degrees or less. Probably not for cinema resolutions, though, since the intended use case was more like meetings and whatever. (Plus probably some loss in image quality due to the large amount of ...
07:59:20 <fizzie> ... perspective correction.)
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08:02:55 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen some acute-angle projectors that do a bunch of perspective correction, they're placed on the top of whiteboards, maybe about 30cm or so out
08:03:06 <ais523> but I'm not quite sure if they're quite /that/ acute
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09:32:40 <oerjan> <ais523> aimake is no longer vaporware! <-- so does that mean we can soon expect fe *hit by anvil falling through portal from future*
09:32:59 <ais523> no, feather probably can't be written in a week
09:42:19 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link? <ais523> elliott: I'll check it for you <ais523> yes <elliott> ais523: thanks, I'll click it then
09:42:28 <HackEgo> 836) <elliott> Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link? <ais523> elliott: I'll check it for you <ais523> yes <elliott> ais523: thanks, I'll click it then
09:43:10 <ais523> oerjan: it actually makes sense in context, too, he explained
09:43:27 <oerjan> but funnier without, i assume
09:46:44 <oerjan> <oklopol> why are these people allowed on my internet <-- to keep them out of the streets.
09:47:02 <oerjan> imagine the danger they would be in traffic.
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09:53:02 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: why the fuck are you reading 3-year-old discussions on reddit <-- r/worstofreddithistory. you know it has to exist...
09:56:13 <oerjan> <ais523> Sgeo: yes, cardinalities of the reals and of infinite strings of elements drawn from a finite alphabet are both aleph-one <-- /me swats ais523 for assuming the continuum hypothesis -----###
09:56:53 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think that assumes the continuum hypothesis, aleph-one's defined as the cardinality of reals even if you assume there's more than one smaller infinity
09:58:14 <oerjan> aleph-one is defined as the smallest (well-orderable) cardinality larger than aleph-zero. it being == cardinality of reals is _precisely_ the continuum hypothesis.
09:58:59 <oerjan> there are however some popular math books which get that wrong.
09:59:43 <oerjan> beth-one, otoh, is equal to the cardinality of reals, being defined as 2^beth_zero = 2^aleph_zero.
10:03:34 <oerjan> <elliott> Ohhhh, mk is that guy who just wanted to learn monads, not Haskell. <-- "i just want to read shakespeare in the original, not learn english!"
10:04:07 <oerjan> (note: no guarantee about appropriateness of analogy)
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10:12:11 <oerjan> <elliott> so I have to do something very serious and bureaucratic instead <-- darn, so no deadfish feature? :(
10:15:06 <oerjan> 03:17:47: <zzo38> What does it mean, "How many IO concepts are there in Haskell"?
10:15:10 <oerjan> 03:18:08: <ais523> the point was that it it was a stupid question and so people were laughing at it
10:16:03 <oerjan> it doesn't sound stupid if you've heard about the lazy input/monads/iteratees/conduits/pipes mess
10:17:02 <oerjan> oh and there's frp, several variants.
10:17:54 <oerjan> and if you mix in the String/Bytestring/lazy Bytestring/Text/lazy Text/vector mess as well...
10:19:02 * oerjan fortunately does things so trivial he can just stay at the lazy String input level
10:19:13 <oerjan> haskelly trivial, that is.
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10:19:59 <oerjan> which otoh means i haven't really learned most of the others
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10:22:58 <oerjan> darn i forgot to put in the ban evasion reason
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10:47:49 <oklopol> does the ban never expire?
10:47:58 <oklopol> who knows, maybe he's gone to therapy or something
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11:14:51 <oerjan> oklopol: not if he keeps evading it
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13:20:26 <nortti> azaq23: problems with irc client?
13:37:27 <azaq23> nortti: I had an issue with the gnome desktop environment (couldn't switch between windows anymore, or click on anything which was outside of the interface of the application I had at the time in the
13:37:27 <azaq23> foreground), which forced me to restart it a few times, and with it the irc client I'm using. I suspect it's somehow connected to a jammed key on my touchpad
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13:56:14 <elliott> happy mailman mailing list membership reminders day
13:59:36 <elliott> "But now I want to sidetrack into some of Yesod's underlying philosophy, and demonstrate its incompatibility with cabal. Many people know that Yesod is Hebrew for "Foundation." What you may not realize is that it's also a term from Jewish mysticism. Jewish mysticism, also known as Kaballah, includes the concepts of receiving energy from a source."
14:00:54 <ais523> <elliott> happy mailman mailing list membership reminders day <-- it's april 1, and /that's/ the best you can say?
14:02:39 <elliott> ais523: i don't participate in internet jackass day, I just observe from the sidelines
14:02:46 <elliott> this is brilliant: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100527.html
14:02:57 <elliott> this is brillianter: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100533.html (only funny if you read the first one first)
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14:03:48 <ais523> is the first one a serious proposal with intentionally silly language, or just entirely silly?
14:03:52 <ais523> I'm too tired to tell them apart
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14:04:57 <elliott> ais523: it's more or less complete nonsense
14:05:35 <ais523> the reply is the sort of thing I'd make, it's a perfectly sensible reply to the post whether it's entirely joke or entirely serious you don't understand or serious disguised as joke
14:05:49 <elliott> ais523: it proposes using /youtube URLs/ as identifiers
14:05:55 <elliott> taking it seriously is unforgivable
14:05:58 <ais523> yes, I noticed that in a footnote
14:06:25 <elliott> I was about to say that the best parts were footnote 4 and appendix A, but then I realised that footnotes 1-1b and all the other appendices were good too
14:06:36 <elliott> oh, "However, I can only get away with my proof using Scott-free semantics." is the other best bit
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14:31:02 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
14:31:08 <elliott> APRIL FEUELZ!!!112156123786127836123
14:31:13 <elliott> (you might need to ctrl+f5 it)
14:31:41 <ais523> you can do that with CSS?
14:31:58 <ais523> heh, and it even affects edit pages
14:32:07 <elliott> yes, which made it quite hard to fix a css error i made the first time
14:32:16 <elliott> buttons look really weird upside-down
14:32:28 <ais523> I'm using useskin=monobook to read the code ;)
14:33:04 <elliott> upside-down english looks kinda like ipa
14:33:16 <ais523> I wonder how long it would take for that to be reverted if someone did it on Wikipedia
14:33:19 <ais523> I'm guessing between 1 and 3 minutes
14:33:38 <elliott> and then five years of arbitration cases
14:33:49 <elliott> I suppose I should remove this now
14:33:57 <elliott> in case anyone actually wants to read the wiki
14:37:26 <ais523> and potentially even useful for non-English languages
14:37:32 <elliott> I think I'll leave it like this for a day
14:37:37 <elliott> indeed, it reminds me of the hebrew wikipedia
14:37:47 <elliott> (note: technically this isn't an april fool's, just me fucking with things, since it's after 12pm)
14:38:08 <ais523> it's before 12pm in some places!
14:38:13 <elliott> i like how the top vector bar gets confused and slides the view history link in if you have JS enabled
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14:40:13 <elliott> ais523: I don't suppose there is any easy way to fix the caching of vector.css
14:40:46 <ais523> elliott: I'm reasonably sure there's a configuration variable /somewhere/ which invalidates everyone's caches when you bump it
14:40:52 <ais523> but I never dealt with that bit of things
14:40:57 <ais523> the devs could be made to bump it in emergencies
14:41:13 <ais523> (it uses the old junk query parameter trick)
14:43:55 <elliott> nortti: does http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page look normal to you?
14:44:01 <elliott> maybe it's just because i was already on the site that it didn't reload or something
14:45:06 <elliott> "1997 – Marriage in the Netherlands became more samey." -- come on WIkipedia, you can do better than this
14:45:49 <ais523> elliott: oh, fun fact, you know how Wikipedia's main page is based on date templates?
14:45:57 <ais523> well, they don't update automatically, someone has to purge the page
14:46:03 <ais523> and today: it was me who did the purge :)
14:46:18 <elliott> has anyone ever forgotten to?
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14:47:13 <ais523> well, it'd require /everyone/ to
14:47:18 <ais523> especially as it can be done while not logged in
14:47:34 <ais523> (although there's a clickthrough for that, to stop scrapers doing it unintentionally)
14:47:36 <elliott> if only purges were logged, so people could race and use it to start drama
14:50:58 <nortti> elliott: pretty funny text effect
14:51:18 <elliott> oh, so it does work without force-reloading?
14:51:47 <elliott> OK, that's my minimum level of contribution for April 1st done
14:52:11 <elliott> ais523: what's slashdot's?
14:52:27 <elliott> "NASCAR is supporting Google's new racing division based on autonomous vehicle technology." heh
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15:02:32 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Welcome to the International Hub for Esotericism and the Occult | Bringing computer systems from the astral plane since 1692! | Need some guidance on spirit projection? Elliott is the local expert, go to him first. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:05:08 <elliott> gah, it would have been an actually good gag to rewrite the main page to be about esoterica
15:07:14 <lambdabot> Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Sun Apr 1 11:06:45
15:07:23 <elliott> who's on the other side of america to RocketJSquirrel?
15:07:33 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 08:07:03 2012
15:09:43 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Sun Apr 1 16:09:15 2012
15:11:07 <elliott> i wanted to know how much april 1st there was left tho
15:11:11 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sun Apr 1 18:10:41 2012
15:11:12 <lambdabot> Local time for clog is Sun Apr 1 08:11:05 2012
15:11:31 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Sun Apr 01 16:11:00
15:11:33 <lambdabot> Local time for Patashu is Mon Apr 02 01:11:05 2012
15:12:26 <Patashu> I must return to my own timeline now
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15:22:54 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:23:39 <elliott> `run echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/' >wisdom/welcome
15:24:19 <ais523> I was going to ask how lambdabot knew my timezone, but there was obivously a ctcp somewhere
15:24:30 <ais523> and I was looking for which channel it had been reported in
15:25:03 <HackEgo> HELPLESS_NEWBIE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
15:25:11 <elliott> that'll make them feel welcome
15:25:42 <elliott> unfortunately, nobody actually comes in here most days
15:25:45 <nortti> huh? Esolangs front page is normal again
15:26:43 <ais523> does demonicpedia actually exist?
15:26:49 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/
15:26:57 <ais523> I don't like thatchange
15:27:03 <ais523> although it's unlikely to matter
15:27:53 <nortti> ellitt: I cleared my cache
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15:31:09 <nortti> elliott: I have tried it with Camino 2.1 (cleared cache) and links2 and both seem normal
15:31:58 <elliott> Which browser did you see the effect in first time?
15:32:09 <elliott> I suspect Camino is just too old to understand the CSS.
15:33:03 <elliott> olsner: Silly Opera user ping
15:34:47 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: The real trick would have been to make the wiki not quite about esotericism, but esoLANGS, where eso means esotericism :)
15:34:54 <nortti> elliott: I saw it with TenFourFox. Camino is based on Gecko 1.9.2 by the way
15:35:30 <elliott> nortti: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/transform#Browser_compatibility Looks like it should work, then
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15:35:45 <elliott> olsner: What's esolangs.org look like to you
15:35:52 <olsner> elliott: looks entirely normal
15:36:14 <elliott> olsner: Force-reload it? (so the CSS reloads)
15:36:19 <elliott> "Opera: Clear the cache in Tools → Preferences"
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15:36:39 <elliott> Slereah_: No, April Fool's ends at 12 pm.
15:36:51 <elliott> Slereah_: This is just me deciding to fuck the wiki up.
15:37:00 <elliott> I am free of all cultural expectations.
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15:37:58 <olsner> elliott: actually I'm using the fool CSS, it's just wrong
15:38:16 <Slereah_> elliott : You so are culturally expected
15:38:18 <olsner> Invalid value for property: -o-transform
15:39:00 <elliott> mdn sez 10.5 up work with -o-
15:39:05 <elliott> olsner: does it recognise the "transform"?
15:39:08 <elliott> even if it doesn't recognise the -o-transform
15:40:46 <olsner> looks like it's spelled rotate in -o-transform
15:41:35 <olsner> according to http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto24/css/transforms/ anyway
15:41:50 <elliott> oh, they don't support rotateY?
15:42:16 <elliott> oh! apparently neither does mozilla
15:42:35 <olsner> maybe ff picks up the webkit transform instead
15:42:50 <elliott> "matrix(<number>, <number>, <number>, <number>, <number>, <number>)
15:42:50 <elliott> Specifies a 2D transformation in the form of a transformation matrix of six values. matrix(a,b,c,d,e,f) is equivalent to applying the transformation matrix [a b c d e f]."
15:43:02 <elliott> olsner: patches welcome, i'm too lazy to work out the matrix
15:47:04 <olsner> I'm not quite sure what the transform is supposed to do though... is that rotateY thing the same as scaleX(-1)?
15:47:15 <olsner> because that works with -o-transform
15:48:02 <olsner> and yeah, opera doesn't do 3D transforms (yet?), only the 2D transforms
15:48:34 <elliott> olsner: it's meant to flip the page horizontally
15:49:04 <olsner> rotating around the Y axis means rotating it in 3d?
15:49:35 <elliott> well, you could say that... or it's just subtracting the coordinate from the width
15:49:43 <elliott> it's not the "3d transform" stuff
15:50:00 <elliott> yes, scaleX(-1) does it, thanks
15:50:00 <olsner> rotateY is a 3d transform
15:50:33 <elliott> ais523: olsner: nortti: try now
15:54:04 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 1 16:54:02
15:54:26 <elliott> hmm, I'll leave my wiki settings at UTC
15:55:04 <nortti> elliott: contents on the page are not flipped, but navigational links are
15:57:55 <nortti> elliott: I thought you meand links in the page
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15:58:16 <elliott> Yeah, the content is meant to be unflipped.
15:58:26 <elliott> I would be very impressed if links flipped the text :P
15:58:54 <nortti> elliott: I tried it and it didn't
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16:13:43 <elliott> ais523: help, I'm getting used to the new Esolang layout already
16:14:01 <ais523> elliott: abort, ignore, retry, fail?
16:14:22 <elliott> what was the difference between abort and fail, anyway
16:14:51 <nortti> elliott: If I remember corretly fail stopped the running program
16:19:30 <Deewiant> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/67586
16:20:34 <elliott> Deewiant: Okay, that makes sense
16:20:42 <elliott> So retry and fail are the only sane ones
16:23:32 <ais523> elliott: actually, abort stopped the running program; fail caused the libc or equivalent to return a failure code
16:23:45 <ais523> ignore caused it to return a success code, and retry is obvious
16:24:39 <elliott> ais523: Yes, that's what Deewiant's link said.
16:24:58 <ais523> oh, that was from memory, I didn't follow the link
16:25:26 <ais523> "This article applies to a different operating system than the one you are using. Article content that may not be relevant to you is disabled."
16:25:35 <ais523> you have to love Microsoft Support :)
16:26:00 <elliott> hmm, does Did You Know? usually change a billion times per day?
16:26:05 <elliott> Wikipedia's appears to be... somewhat in flux
16:26:16 <ais523> it normally gets updated five or six times a day
16:27:43 <ais523> the intent is to put every new article that it's at all possible to write a decent hook for on there
16:29:26 <elliott> gah, what is wrong with this template?
16:32:15 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Approximately_64,695_Pounds_of_Shark_Fins
16:32:22 <elliott> ais523: OK, this is the best article title on Wikipedia, no question
16:33:03 <ais523> there's a huge debate about what to do about april 1's "on this day"
16:33:11 <ais523> because of legitimate events happening on april 1 never getting a chance
16:33:19 <ais523> I think the conclusion was to list the events but with silly descriptions
16:33:32 <elliott> please! please, no discussion that isn't about that perfect title
16:34:33 <ais523> you should read the article attached to it, the event is vaguely ridiculous too
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17:09:28 <nortti> This crazy idea just came to my mind: Wait until all support on Windows XP has ended and then buy rights to MS-DOS source code from microsoft and after that relase it under wtfpl
17:11:53 <nortti> wait until support of xp has ended (xp still uses MS-DOS in its boot floppy) and after that buy MS-DOS from microsoft
17:12:10 <elliott> i'm not sure why you think it would be for sale
17:12:49 <nortti> did you notice this: "This crazy idea"
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17:35:37 <Taneb> I felt like writing a BF Joust interpreter/genetic creator in Haskell.
17:36:04 <Taneb> I've got 82 lines, including 10 imported modules and 2 language extensions that do absolutely nothing
17:36:08 <elliott> Genetic BF Joust has gone well approximately 0 times.
17:37:40 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
17:40:34 <Taneb> BF Joust programs written by Taneb have gone well approximately 0 times
17:41:05 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
17:41:11 <elliott> HAVE YOU SEEN THE WIKI TODAY, BY THE WAY?
17:41:37 <Taneb> IT TOOK ME A SECOND TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON
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18:29:25 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.0.0 just came out!
18:29:28 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/261849837d0d8e42
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18:29:38 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.1.0 just came out!
18:29:39 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/ade3da9173a7cc2a
18:29:44 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.2.0 just came out!
18:29:45 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/cb0da1bf9d2c0ba1
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18:34:41 <oerjan> elliott: HEY I GOT THIS NEW SPIRIT PROJECTOR BUT IT WON'T WORK WITH WINDOWS XP D:
18:34:59 <HackEgo> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
18:35:18 <elliott> HAVE YOU SEEN THE WIKI TODAY, BY THE WAY
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18:35:23 <elliott> THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERIC
18:35:26 <elliott> THAT PEOPLE KEEP COMING IN HERE FOR
18:36:01 <oerjan> NOT SINCE LAST I WAS HERE, WHEN IT LOOKED DISAPPOINTINGLY NORMAL
18:36:59 <elliott> ERM YOU MIGHT NEED A NEWER IE VERSION THAN YOU HAVE NOT SURE
18:37:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ps april fooles
18:37:35 <elliott> oerjan: well does it still look normal
18:40:49 <oerjan> (which afaik is the latest which works with xp, btw)
18:42:53 <elliott> oerjan: ok try ctrl+f5 now
18:43:43 <elliott> wait i think i messed it up
18:44:34 <oerjan> there is at least a difference now ... the background color is changed and the scrollbar doesn't work :P
18:44:52 <elliott> huh, what happens to the background?
18:45:16 <oerjan> same as the sidebar now
18:45:37 <elliott> I'm going by MS' documentation, which might be wrong
18:45:59 * elliott installs IE in Wine to test it himself
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18:46:54 <elliott> I think winetricks can do it
18:47:50 <elliott> oerjan: a screenshot would still be useful, though
18:48:30 <oerjan> thank you, omploader for today's front page (nsfw)
18:49:05 <oerjan> http://ompldr.org/vZDg0bg/screenshot.PNG
18:49:45 <elliott> i think it just lists the most-accessed files
18:50:36 <oklofok> am i missing midget porn somewher
18:50:56 <elliott> oerjan: it looks ok in my wine-installed ie8, but i suspect it might be using gecko
18:51:01 <oerjan> it's porn indeed, i couldn't tell if it was midgets.
18:51:45 <elliott> oh, ies4linux only goes up to 5
18:51:58 <elliott> and doesn't work with latest wine
18:52:44 <elliott> oerjan: (i can disable it for now if you want to browse the wiki)
18:52:58 <oerjan> oklofok: oh i wasn't linking to the porn, that's on ompldr's front page
18:53:28 <elliott> oerjan keeps all his midget porn to himself
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18:53:59 <oklofok> i've seen enough naked midgets to know immediately
18:54:05 <oerjan> huh list of ideas has a scrollbar but only allows a part of the article :P
18:54:20 <olsner> oklofok, watcher of naked midgets
18:54:21 <zzo38> elliott: Can you tell me how to spirit project a computer?
18:54:23 <elliott> i've removed it temporarily, lemme fix this
18:54:37 <HackEgo> ZZO38: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/
18:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: This is a very frequently asked question, check our wiki for more information!
18:56:54 <zzo38> It mentions nothing about how to spirit project a computer. (Searching for the term "computer" leads to no results)
18:57:04 <oerjan> elliott: heh are you trying to make it mirrored? the yafgc webcomic did that today too (although only to the comic itself and the title)
18:57:17 <elliott> oerjan: I said no peeking >:(
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18:57:58 <oerjan> elliott: erm ok. i had already clicked on the history diff so it was open in a tab
19:00:08 <elliott> ais523: hey, do you have any IE?
19:00:19 <ais523> I have IE6, but don't use it while connected to the internet
19:01:08 <elliott> oerjan: You know, Chrome and Firefox are pretty nice...
19:03:11 <elliott> oerjan: ok could you try now (this is just a test version to see what happens)
19:04:02 <oerjan> background still different, but scrollbar works now :P
19:06:05 <elliott> hey it's not my fault IE is weird
19:07:02 <oerjan> hey it doesn't have to be IE's fault. maybe it interprets _several_ of those transforms i shouldn't peek at, and there are an even number so they cancel out
19:10:47 <oerjan> a true master of indistinguishible subtlety
19:11:28 <elliott> fine, i give up. your browser is completely broken. it obeys neither the specification, nor its own documentation
19:11:36 <oerjan> i checked another page, the language list.
19:11:44 <elliott> you *were* ctrl+f5ing all this time, right?
19:12:10 <elliott> ok what does the language list look like
19:12:21 <oerjan> anyway, the page looks _almost_ normal, except for the small detail that the title is at the bottom, upside down.
19:12:58 <oerjan> since the main page has no title, i didn't notice it there :P
19:13:03 <elliott> (and is there a space where the title should be at the top?)
19:17:05 <oerjan> http://imgur.com/tQIHz
19:20:05 <elliott> oerjan: ok i just changed the effect to something else for IE < 9.
19:23:49 <elliott> guess you'll just have to live without any fancy tricks
19:23:54 * oerjan guesses him using IE 8 is the universe's april fool's joke on elliott
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19:31:10 <oklofok> i still prefer ie over firefox, although i have to admit chrome is the nicest invention in the world. because you can drag and drop tabs.
19:31:41 <olsner> (opera has had drag-and-drop tabs since like forever)
19:31:59 <nortti_> oklofok: You can do that on firefox
19:32:17 <oklofok> so i guess if i tried everything now, ie would finally lose
19:32:30 <elliott> olsner: opera users are so cute
19:32:31 <oklofok> (except for the fact it's much more stable than firefox in my experience)
19:32:42 <elliott> olsner: enjoy ur market share
19:33:06 <nortti_> oklofok: when did you try firefox
19:33:40 <oklofok> nortti: a couple of years ago
19:34:09 <oklofok> i used to use ie until it did something annoying, and then switched to firefox until it did something annoying
19:34:39 <nortti_> oklofok: Try it again. Firefox 3.* was terrible
19:34:43 <oklofok> but it usually took less than a day for firefox to do something stupid so finally i stopped using it
19:35:14 <oklofok> then at some point i tried chrome but on my laptop, all of its options windows were too big for my screen, and i couldn't close them
19:35:48 <oklofok> but i have a big screen now, and chrome hasn't done anything annoying since i bought this computer
19:35:51 <elliott> firefox 2 was terrible too, as far as memory usage/stability goes.
19:36:22 <elliott> oklofok: funny, since chrome doesn't actually use pref windows any more
19:37:26 <oklofok> and obviously i know since it's the only browser i use
19:37:41 <elliott> well, it's funny if you bought the new computer to run chrome
19:37:43 <nortti_> elliott: I had no problem with it. I actually maintained a version of Iceweasel 2 up to 2011 and then I switched to Iceweasel 4
19:37:45 <elliott> you haven't said otherwise so i'll assume you did
19:38:39 <oklofok> yeah i paid 2000 euros for a computer so i could try a browser that did something extremely annoying during the first minute i tried it.
19:39:47 <nortti_> oklofok: You can get computer that can run Chrome for 10€
19:40:25 <oklofok> so just to make things clear, i was prefectly happy with ie, i bought this computer _for no reason_.
19:40:44 <oklofok> and i decided to try chrome again for lulz. but turned out it was awesome.
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19:41:46 <elliott> bet it runs minecraft better than your older one
19:43:07 <oklofok> when i tried minecraft i was like what the fuck I CAN SEE MOUNTAINS
19:43:43 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-ordlist/0.4.5/doc/html/Data-List-Ordered.html oh, there's a package for this!
19:43:52 <oklofok> and i can open like *two* minesweepers at once
19:44:35 <hagb4rd> have you already tried the 8 bit version of google maps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF8BsdGaK3c
19:44:35 <zzo38> My DVI typesetting stuff in Haskell seem to do glue setting wrong. Is findBreaks wrong? findBreaks True f (h : t) | isJust (castNode h :: Maybe GlueNode) = ((\(x, y, z) -> (succ x, addGlue y (fst $ f h), z)) <$> findBreaks (isNodeDiscardable h) f t); findBreaks b f (h : t) = maybe id (\x -> ((0, fixedGlue 0, x) :)) (snd $ f h) ((\(x, y, z) -> (succ x, addGlue y (fst $ f h), z)) <$> findBreaks (isNodeDiscardable h) f t);
19:46:26 <nortti_> my browser history goes something like this: IE6 -> Firefox 2 -> Firefox 3 -> Firebird -> K-Meleon -> Iceweasel 2 with patches -> Konqueror, Iceweasel 2 with patches, Links2 -> Iceweasel 4, Links2 -> TenFourFox 5-11, Camino, Links2
19:48:08 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: nortti_).
19:48:12 <elliott> pffft, I used Firefox before you!
19:49:54 * oerjan used NCSA Mosaic so there
19:51:24 <elliott> Well, fuck you, I used WorldWideWeb.
19:51:32 <elliott> Or at least I tried to. Once.
19:52:15 <oklofok> i used ie before it was cool
19:53:16 <elliott> the first web browser i used was either ie 5.something or ie 6.
19:53:31 <zzo38> Does this findBreaks looks wrong?
19:53:43 <hagb4rd> ie6 is the worst browser ever
19:54:29 <hagb4rd> at least you need all kind of hacks to make your site support it
19:55:05 <zzo38> hagb4rd: If you are just using simple HTML stuff it should be support in anything
19:55:06 -!- Tiktalik has changed nick to Urist_McTiktalik.
19:55:12 <elliott> hagb4rd: Please. You've clearly never seen IE 5.
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19:56:49 <hagb4rd> great zzo38.. that really relieves me
19:58:02 <Sgeo> Don't tell me you've made a DF-IRC bridge
19:58:32 * Sgeo is aware that that doens't make much sense
19:58:41 <elliott> When did you appear here, anyway? I keep seeing you join and leave and I'm all "who's this Tiktalik guy".
19:58:44 <Sgeo> Although... a bot that tells IRC stuff that happens in a game
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20:00:10 <hagb4rd> damn it..my power supply is messed up
20:00:15 <elliott> Urist_McTiktalik: Are you... a ghost?
20:01:04 <hagb4rd> eliott: afaik netscape4 supports the the wc3 conventions better than ie6
20:01:48 <elliott> hagb4rd: You have *clearly* never used Netscape 4.
20:02:19 <hagb4rd> i can't remember.. maybe 15 years ago
20:02:46 <hagb4rd> i don't know which version it was
20:03:51 <Sgeo> I had a book, "DHTML for Dummies"
20:05:16 <Sgeo> Talked about IE4 and Netscape 4
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20:06:27 <oerjan> elliott: he's a demonic fishlike creature
20:08:25 <Taneb> My BF Joust thing is now 213 lines
20:09:11 <zzo38> No, findBreaks is correct; that is not the reason for the wrong glue setting.
20:09:29 <Taneb> The looping code is unfinished, and it just executes 1 step and says it's a tie at the moment
20:09:34 <Taneb> But it's getting there
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20:33:24 <hagb4rd> are you familiar with stenography techniques? i can't find the hidden text in this picture :( https://www.wechall.net/challenge/training/stegano/caterpillar/caterpillar.png
20:34:39 <hagb4rd> though the author pretends it to be an easy one.. now i feel really stupid
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20:35:29 * oerjan thinks he hasn't seen mtve in a while
20:36:33 <oerjan> hagb4rd: today's special challenge, or something?
20:38:16 * oerjan knows little about steganography but ihrc things are sometimes hidden in the lower bits
20:40:15 <hagb4rd> i've tried to cut off the last 2 bits in each pixel already..without success
20:40:38 <olsner> but today being today, there might not even be a hidden message
20:42:07 <oerjan> oh and there's metadata, maybe
20:42:55 <hagb4rd> okay.. i will try harder. thanks so far :>
20:43:03 <elliott> Sgeo: You are subscribed to spoon-*, right?
20:43:09 <Sgeo> I .. believe so
20:43:28 <Sgeo> At least, I remember subscribing to and participating in B stuff, and don't remember unsubscribing
20:43:29 <oerjan> Urist_McTiktalik: OUT, FOUL DEMONIAN CREATURE
20:43:31 <elliott> Sgeo: I would appreciate it if you could reply to my two recent determinations (to s-b) saying you agree with them, thanks!
20:43:50 <elliott> ("I agree with both of ehird's pending determinations." in a message on its own would work fine.)
20:43:55 <zzo38> OK! I got the gloe setting fixed by now. (The mistake was that the datatypes I used were not large enough to store the intermediate results)
20:44:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, I assume this is a scam of some sort
20:44:45 <HackEgo> Urist_McTiktalik: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/
20:44:57 <elliott> If you really don't know what this place is and want a serious answer, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:45:39 <Urist_McTiktalik> elliott: Okay, so it is actually what I thought it was. I was a bit confused >_>
20:46:20 <zzo38> And the demonicpedia does not even tell you how to spirit project a computer anyways (I doubt anyone on this channel knows about that kind of stuff).
20:46:27 <oerjan> Urist_McTiktalik: NO YOU ARE A FOUL FISH CREATURE FROM THE DEMONIAN
20:46:29 <hagb4rd> well thats a good point to start Urist_McTiktalik
20:48:32 <zzo38> Urist_McTiktalik: Good, because we have a lot of those.
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21:30:28 <Taneb> Had things on my mind, sorry
21:30:46 <Taneb> Although my BF Joust genetic thingy is nearing completion!
21:30:51 <Taneb> It needs a little tweaking, though
21:31:01 <Taneb> The best program it's came up with is "+"
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22:35:06 <elliott> @tell Phantom_Hoover Hope you're having fun in Mexico!
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23:10:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 00:09:57
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