00:00:16 shrug 00:00:25 what's your actual objection 00:00:42 if you're starting out and you want a bunch of little list-type problems 00:00:47 I like some Nightwish songs 00:00:56 perhaps beginners want preserve their species, so they want beginners to stay beginners. 00:01:18 i like all nightwish songs, i just cannot listen to them objectively :( 00:02:14 i mean even this stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JatD5SyRhLk 00:02:19 that's fucking perfection 00:03:08 but i somehow feel that's not usually my style 00:03:17 kmc: they're all poor because they're all designed specifically to show off prolog's constraint solving 00:03:22 since it was translated from lisp from prolog 00:03:36 (so there's also "how awesome lisp's list processing" stuff is too) 00:03:50 and they include all the lisp examples inline 00:03:54 * Sgeo searches for more funny videos about planned parenthood 00:04:11 and a bunch of the argument orders are non-idiomatic because of the translation etc 00:04:15 *etc. 00:04:32 "Alex Exposes Planned Parenthood" 00:04:34 and the bible was translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English 00:04:44 kmc: oh, please 00:04:49 kmc: by translated i mean "literally just translated" 00:04:59 well it is a wiki elliott... 00:05:14 yes, but i don't have the admin powers to delete those pages, what's your point 00:05:21 you could fix them :) 00:05:39 they're poor, the whole idea of translating prolog problems to haskell wholesale as a means of teaching haskell (note that people have been recommended this *over* LYAH by beginners) 00:05:40 I agree they're not the best quality, but you seem to be picking nits 00:05:43 is doomed 00:05:51 oh, it's not a replacement for LYAH at all 00:05:54 the problem don't *explain* anything 00:05:57 i don't care that they exist, i care that people end up reading them as major learning material 00:06:03 they are exercises to do while you read LYAH or GIH or whatever 00:06:11 SOLELY because other people who got recommended them did, etc. etc. i've never seen a single person who actually knows haskell recommend them 00:06:15 if people say otherwise then they're being dumb and you should hit them 00:06:17 with sticks 00:06:20 which does not fill me with confidence that they help people learn haskell 00:06:41 kmc: well I think people tend to end up reading LYAH but end up very distorted because the only code they're trying to write is what are in the 99 problems 00:06:56 also it's impossible to stop people recommending bad tutorials in haskell, you know that 00:07:39 true 00:07:47 i think i've recommended the 99 problems and I know haskell pretty well 00:08:08 bah 00:08:13 they're probably not that bad if you already have the basics down 00:08:22 but i do think they'll be a bad influence on newbies 00:08:23 i never really wrote an actual problem in haskell 00:08:36 i just wrote these little list manipulation things and thought it's a neat language 00:08:37 and are not nearly essential, so recommending them before the "i just wanna write more haskell" stage is bad 00:08:47 and then back to pythen for actual programs 00:09:20 pythan 00:09:27 pythong 00:12:29 Ok interact looks perfect, saves having to compile a separate file too because GCHi only implements a subset of Haskell and it's not equatable to python or irb 00:13:31 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3382491587979249836 00:14:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:15:11 w 00:15:12 hat 00:17:35 maybe i should get a car 00:20:19 "According to David Hasselhof, the video was intended as a joke, a parody of himself." 00:20:36 @time 00:20:36 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 9 01:21:04 00:21:00 all these natural etc computing conferences have "amorphous computing" on their list of topics 00:21:02 the fuck is that 00:21:17 amorphous 00:21:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_computing 00:21:35 coined by abelson, knight, sussman 00:21:40 can't argue with that 00:22:03 so what, cellular automata? 00:22:18 it has a list of examples :P 00:22:26 but no mathematical definition D: 00:22:32 rtfpaper? 00:22:49 ok i'm gonna compile hugs 00:22:51 wish me luck 00:22:58 okay luck 00:23:05 average luck 00:23:08 and I'm back on kde 3.5 (trinity) 00:23:22 i don't wanna read, i want a one-line definition :( 00:23:33 oklopol: i think you will find it is not a precise term. 00:23:43 nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00:24:24 note to self 00:24:25 Short version (for Unix-like environments): 00:24:25 make EXTRA_CONFIGURE_OPTS=--prefix=$HOME 00:24:25 make clean 00:24:25 $HOME/bin/hugs $HOME/lib/hugs/demos/Say 00:24:27 putStr (say " /Hugs") 00:24:29 :quit 00:24:35 clowns 00:25:28 oklopol: what 00:25:37 i have no idea 00:26:15 i let my fingers run free, and somehow it said clowns on my screen. 00:26:29 ************************************************ 00:26:29 *** NOW DO: make ; make install 00:26:29 ************************************************ 00:26:29 cd src; make all 00:26:30 h;elp 00:26:33 oklopol: happens 00:26:38 it does 00:27:10 checking value of ENOTBLK... 15 00:27:11 checking value of ENOTCONN... 107 00:27:11 checking value of ENOTDIR... 20 00:27:11 checking value of ENOTEMPTY... 39 00:27:11 checking value of ENOTSOCK... 88 00:27:11 checking value of ENOTTY... 25 00:27:13 checking value of ENXIO... 6 00:27:15 checking value of EOPNOTSUPP... 95 00:27:17 is it checking every error 00:27:20 it was 00:28:54 -!- augur has joined. 00:33:50 checking AL/alext.h presence... yes 00:33:50 configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: present but cannot be compiled 00:33:50 configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: check for missing prerequisite headers? 00:33:50 configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: see the Autoconf documentation 00:33:50 configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: section "Present But Cannot Be Compiled" 00:33:51 configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: proceeding with the preprocessor's result 00:33:53 configure: WARNING: AL/alext.h: in the future, the compiler will take precedence 00:33:55 configure: WARNING: ## ----------------------------------- ## 00:33:57 configure: WARNING: ## Report this to sven.panne@aedion.de ## 00:33:59 configure: WARNING: ## ----------------------------------- ## 00:34:01 sorry sven!!!! 00:34:58 autokhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanf 00:35:01 STOP FLOODING YOU'RE RUINING MY BUZZ 00:35:19 maybe i should get a car ← noooooo 00:35:37 but i like having sex with teenagers :( 00:35:56 did you watch to the end he didn't get to that part 00:36:01 sorry!! 00:36:11 "present but cannot be compiled" is a complex workaround to avoid making a breaking change in autoconf 00:36:14 well yeah but the girl was willing 00:36:16 or at least, to make it gradually 00:36:52 ais523: idgi 00:37:37 elliott: basically, it used to check the existence of a header file, nowadays it checks to see if #including it breaks a test program 00:37:46 [elliott@dinky hugs98-plus-Sep2006]$ ~/hugs/bin/hugs 00:37:46 __ __ __ __ ____ ___ _________________________________________ 00:37:46 || || || || || || ||__ Hugs 98: Based on the Haskell 98 standard 00:37:46 ||___|| ||__|| ||__|| __|| Copyright (c) 1994-2005 00:37:46 ||---|| ___|| World Wide Web: http://haskell.org/hugs 00:37:47 || || Bugs: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/hugs 00:37:49 || || Version: September 2006 _________________________________________ 00:37:51 and that's a breaking change because some headers will #error out if missing prerequisites 00:37:59 kmc: i'm like indiana jones 00:38:34 Say> putStr (say " /Hugs") 00:38:34 H H U U GGGG SSSS 00:38:34 H H U U G S 00:38:35 HHHHH U U G GG SSS 00:38:35 H H U U G G S 00:38:35 H H UUU GGG SSSS 00:38:37 holy shit, the power of hugs 00:40:07 elliott: i just realized i may be bored 00:40:09 elliott, why are you hugging 00:40:36 i realized this as i was peeing 00:41:09 kmc: well remember that reflection code i linked you to 00:41:17 it actually works on hugs with minor modifications 00:41:30 what i'm doing now is i'm going to try and install cabal-install with hugs 00:41:34 so uh 00:41:34 yaeh 00:41:35 *yeah 00:42:30 uh my current problem is that i have no idea how to import modules in hugs 00:43:30 elliott, is that the last version of hugs that you pasted the output from? 00:44:50 Vorpal: yes, September 2006, a bugfix release 00:44:58 to the major May 2006 release 00:45:07 wow 00:45:11 which was the successor to the March 2005 interim release :p 00:45:27 heh 00:45:30 kmc: wow? 00:45:38 didn't realise it had been dead for quite that long 00:45:57 elliott: :also? 00:45:58 elliott, why on earth are you using hugs though? 00:46:24 Deewiant: Thanks, that... sort of works. 00:46:27 Hugs.Prelude> :also Data.Map 00:46:28 ERROR "/home/elliott/hugs/lib/hugs/packages/base/Data/Maybe.hs":98 - Undefined type constructor "Maybe" 00:46:36 wow as in I had no idea cabal install even worked on hugs 00:46:37 Vorpal: To make this code more portable! 00:46:41 kmc: oh, I'm not sure it does 00:46:49 kmc: but I know cabal made some token effort of supporting other compilers circa 2006 00:46:57 yeah 00:46:57 kmc: i mean i don't need cabal-install really, just cabal itself 00:47:04 so maybe i can get an old enough version of cabal 00:47:07 ah 00:47:38 Okay, the problem is that Data.Maybe doesn't declare Maybe. 00:47:40 Why doesn't it declare Maybe? 00:47:54 fromJust Nothing = error "Maybe.fromJust: Nothing" -- yuck 00:47:54 yuck indeed. 00:50:03 sigh, ok 00:50:04 so 00:50:10 that file has the definition of Maybe behind an ifndef Hugs 00:50:25 i don't quite understand because 00:50:36 surely hugs can't be so completely broken that Data.Maybe does not work 00:51:26 aha 00:51:29 :also Data.Maybe 00:51:30 :also Data.Map 00:51:31 works 00:51:50 kmc: woot, hugs actually ships with cabal 00:52:07 but it's 1.1.5.9.2 00:52:31 ...is it ok to update boot packages with hugs? 00:55:09 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/hugs/ticket/89 00:55:12 is this *the* doug mcilroy? 00:56:00 yes, it is, wow! 00:56:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:58:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:12:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:12:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:17:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:20:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:29:41 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:32:31 -!- calamari has joined. 01:37:37 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:40:13 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/rzb7m/hi_there_i_have_a_gcse_level_high_school/ 01:40:14 Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 01:40:19 OH LOOK half the links are LessWrong. 01:40:44 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, if there's one thing Eliezer is good at, it's explaining Bayesian probability. 01:41:08 That's a big 'if'. 01:41:12 haha 01:41:20 harry potter and the difference between alternating current and direct current 01:42:19 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:42:47 * elliott doesn't get the reference (after "and", I mean). 01:43:05 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:07:58 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:17:45 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:49:55 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:52:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:52:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:02:28 What's wrong with Eliezer? 03:03:35 -!- Deewiant has joined. 03:03:37 who's that again 03:03:52 yudkowsky 03:04:35 oh right 03:05:10 I don't know anything about him. is he one of those conceited fellows? or is that just wolfram 03:05:19 he's the less wrong guy right 03:05:27 don't know anything about that either 03:05:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:25:40 -!- qfr has joined. 03:25:47 Have any of you written any self-hosting compilers? 03:26:24 i... probably have 03:26:36 i forget if i ever actually have... but i certainly could, i'm just lazy :p 03:26:39 `welcome qfr 03:26:45 qfr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 03:28:01 I should try it some time. 03:28:05 Wait, compiler? 03:36:30 http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/08/satirical-article-in-rutgers-student-newspaper-under-fire-for-praising-hitler 03:36:34 Crappy headline is crappy 03:38:07 -!- Case1 has joined. 03:43:47 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:44:11 Yes, compiler 03:44:26 -!- Deewiant has joined. 03:44:31 As in, you go through the annoying stack of PE/ELF/whatever things 03:44:56 And opcode generation 03:45:12 Just to show off to people on IRC 03:46:43 you can delegate ELF generation to the linker 03:46:52 producing assembly or even C is not that difficult 03:49:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:49:41 a minimal ELF executable is also pretty simple 03:49:52 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html 03:50:18 elliott, but that C would have to be able to compile C, right? 03:50:21 if you're writing a compiler and not a masochist, you would use something like LLVM 03:50:25 Sgeo: no 03:50:27 you always have dependencies 03:50:33 for instance your output code will make syscalls 03:52:00 So what dependency would I use to compile the C? 03:52:04 eliezer's articles have way too many letters 03:53:29 i think a static Linux executable that can compile itself without linking in external libs is a reasonable place to draw the line 03:53:36 if we're talking about pointlessly hard things for showing off 03:53:48 the next step would be an OS that hosts its own compiler too 03:53:59 Sgeo: gcc 03:57:33 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:57:35 What compiler are you writing? And how large will the executables be if compiled by LLVM? 03:58:46 zzo38, my executables will be -1 bytes in size. 03:59:17 ...if I made it into a virus that duplicated itself wildly on the machine, everyone would love me! 04:00:17 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 04:03:14 -!- Deewiant has joined. 04:08:04 [05:46:43] you can delegate ELF generation to the linker 04:08:12 Where is the fun in letting other software do the work! 04:08:29 Do everything with syscalls, for great justice 04:08:33 0 dependency files 04:09:00 Truly autonomous userland software! 04:09:02 qfr: incorrect 04:09:08 you'll depend on a few thousand files: the linux kernel 04:09:16 Notice the "userland" part :P 04:09:23 I excluded that already 04:09:29 Obviously it depends on the operating system still 04:09:50 Otherwise we'd end up with an entire operating system 04:09:52 Not just a binary 04:09:53 So it won't work if it isn't Linux. (And even if it is Linux, the ways of doing syscalls might differ if it is not x86) 04:10:16 You can do Syscalls on Windows, too 04:10:22 Without kernel32.dll 04:10:23 You can make a program for IBM PC, which depends on only the BIOS 04:10:35 qfr: Yes, but you cannot do Linux syscalls on Windows. 04:10:45 Well, Windows can't load ELFs anyways 04:11:07 Incidentally, if you want a self-hosting OS type thing, I suggest you go the lazy route and make it a bare-metal Forth. 04:11:11 I wonder if somebody has written an ELF loader for Windows 04:11:13 That would be amusing 04:11:14 yse 04:11:15 yes 04:11:17 RocketJSquirrel has 04:11:20 Nice heh 04:11:24 works on OS X too 04:11:26 RocketJSquirrel: How goes Microcosm II, anyways? 04:11:32 https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/gelfload 04:11:45 The closest I've gotten to portable binaries is C# honestly 04:11:49 pikhq_: Yes I once wrote something like that too, but it used the BIOS too 04:11:56 Right now I just compile stuff with Visual Studio for Linux servers 04:12:10 Mono is fabulous 04:12:20 didn't someone write a Linux ELF loader in Perl 04:12:44 zzo38: I permit BIOS use on IBM-compatibles. 04:12:50 that is, a perl script which will "exec" an ELF not by calling execve(2) but by mmapping and copying stuff 04:13:00 If you use Mono, then, yes; you could write a program in Visual Studio which work in both Windows and Linux, I suppose 04:13:05 the IO.STS boot sector demo competition was fun: http://io.smashthestack.org:84/intro/ 04:13:15 It amounts to the basic hardware interface. 04:13:51 zzo38 yep 04:14:02 It's remarkable how flawlessly it works honestly 04:14:06 I rarely have probelms with this approach 04:14:23 what language do you use? 04:14:24 I started developing services for Linux in C# on Windows 04:14:38 And they work on Windows, Linux, MacOS and FreeBSD 04:14:40 C# seems like a reasonable language to me 04:14:44 I just need to exchange some dependencies occasionally 04:14:48 it's like Java taken to the logical conclusion, rather than arbitrarily crippled 04:14:55 not exciting to PL snobs but fine for getting work done 04:15:05 For example, I use System.Data.SQLite for SQLite databases on Windows, but I use Mono.Data.Sqlite on Linux 04:15:20 kmc: I think that kind of attitude is harmful. 04:15:25 Mono often has its own version of something that is a third party dependency on Windows 04:15:40 kmc I'm actually currently busy rewriting Java services in C# 04:15:45 Mono still defaults to Boehm GC... 04:15:47 because they were using too much memory and had ugly GUIs :| 04:15:51 which attitude? 04:15:59 pikhq_ is that a bad GC, in yoru opinion? 04:16:01 In that it downplays advances in PLT as mere language snobbery that couldn't help getting work done... it's undeniable that C#'s family of language etc. has major major underlying problems. It's true that they're an acceptable stopgap, and "work" as much as we expect anything to work. 04:16:11 They have LLVM support btw, but it's not used by default right now 04:16:14 But to say it's fine is a bit too far for me. 04:16:18 qfr: Boehm is basically a giant hack. 04:16:33 i have low standards elliott 04:16:45 i've used Haskell enough to be frustrated with it, as well 04:16:49 It is designed to garbage collect idiomatic C. 04:16:49 Because reflection doesn't work properly with their LLVM bindings right now, I think 04:16:50 i have unreasonably high standards. 04:17:01 And for that purpose, it kinda-sorta works. 04:17:12 pikhq_ are you saying it leaks memory in Mono? 04:17:15 Or something like that? 04:17:18 It can. 04:18:01 Because of how C works, any value in your program *might* be a pointer to memory, and the GC has no way of knowing. 04:18:18 boehm won't handle xor linked lists :/ 04:18:41 With moderately high memory use on 32-bit systems, it starts leaking like a sieve. 04:18:55 It'll also leak if you've got bad luck. 04:19:08 That doesn't sound good 04:19:28 indeed 04:19:42 I'll ask some people who are using my C# service on Linux/MacOS if they've observed any leakage 04:19:56 I only run it temporarily so I can't check, I shut down my box at night 04:20:06 Not to mention that it can't move any memory around (because of how C works), so it has to do somewhat slower algorithms for allocation and garbage collection. 04:20:55 Basically though, Boehm GC is about as useful as libcaca. :) 04:22:26 What if, you write it a direct LLVM code? 04:23:26 kmc: What do you mean when you say C++ is bad in a way opposite to most languages? 04:23:48 Does LLVM have anything to do with garbage collection btw? 04:23:51 Or is that orthogonal? 04:24:02 Fairly orthogonal. 04:24:15 well I think most bad languages get to be bad because the designers keep heaping on features without an idea of how it should all fit together 04:24:33 It has the ability to feed some information to a garbage collector if you write one, but otherwise is utterly ignorant of it. 04:24:44 C++ has a lot of features, but they are exquisitely crafted to fit together just so 04:25:03 when you understand C++ well enough, you see what the designers were going for; it makes sense and is pretty cool and even a bit elegant 04:25:04 I think LLVM does have some things relating to garbage collection 04:25:12 what they were going for is something no other language does well, imo 04:25:18 unfortunately C++ does not do it well either 04:25:34 because while its conceptual basis may be sound, it's just too cumbersome to get work done 04:25:46 and it's crippled by a few bad decisions alongside the good ones 04:26:00 like the decision to incorporate most of C as first-class citizens (syntactically and semantically) 04:26:47 "fit together just so" 04:26:50 haha 04:26:52 hahaha 04:26:55 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 04:27:21 idiomatic C++ code is pretty high level and mostly memory-safe 04:27:29 unfortunately it's too cumbersome, so people fall back to the C way of doing things 04:27:45 What things were you frustrated with in Haskell? We can work together make up the new programming language I do have many idea so you can do that including whatever is wrong hopefully can make a correction in case we know better. 04:27:48 we complain that C++ has both std::vector and operator new[]... well, operator new[] is there so that you can implement std::vector 04:27:50 I'm sorry 04:27:56 C++ does not fit together at all 04:28:07 I work on clang 04:28:12 coppro: I'm sorry. 04:28:14 That is, for a Haskell-like programming language; for a C-like programming language I have another idea another different one 04:28:17 if C++ were a better language, the unsafe bits would be like all the unsafe bits of GHC Haskell 04:28:22 * coppro hugs pikhq for support 04:28:24 not something you use all over ordinary applications code 04:28:47 coppro: Would you like to regale kmc with edge cases? 04:28:50 * elliott thinks kmc sounds like someone who has never actually used C++ 04:28:54 for real(tm) 04:29:02 * elliott is also amused at coppro's reaction seeing as he's the C++ fanboy 04:29:03 haha 04:29:06 C++ is a bunch of haphazard features that interact in random ways but that, if you try hard enough, you can bolt on enough libraries to make it a useable language 04:29:29 elliott: clang would fix that. 04:29:36 Libraries are a bad thing now? 04:29:40 elliott, I have written quite a bit of C++ 04:29:43 Much like gcc solves any love of GNU. 04:29:49 The fun part of C++ is that everyone can pick a different subset of libraries to make it useable and things still work together 04:29:50 when I was a professional C++ programmer, i knew more about the language than most of my co-workers 04:29:58 but you don't have to believe me 04:30:17 Do any mortals know a majority of the language? 04:30:17 i'll go back to what i was doing before; working on an open-source C++ project 04:30:22 pikhq_ no 04:30:46 kmc: mosh? 04:30:49 yeah 04:30:59 (but my current project is autoconf hacking, not C++ :/) 04:31:15 I think for about 15% of the questions that come up when talking to you, the answer is "mosh". 04:31:15 to be clear in case any of you lack reading comprehension: C++ is a bad language; I'm not saying it's a good language 04:31:27 but I think it's bad in an unusual, interesting way 04:31:42 "And they all came back, shook my hand, 04:31:42 and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing, 04:31:42 father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the 04:31:43 bench." 04:31:55 c.c 04:32:09 I sometimes program in C, and sometimes in Haskell. But in both cases I would rather have different things, both cases not yet invented programming languages and even two different ones. But one similar to C, would be also similar to LLVM, and BLISS, and macros. 04:32:30 zzo38: Would it also support Enhanced CWEB? 04:32:43 what happened to INFORM and Magic: the Gathering 04:32:53 i tap writer monad for 2 mana 04:33:29 shachaf: Probably not, but it would support its own WEB-like system. 04:34:13 kmc: Yes, the one I am writing about, with similar to Haskell-like, would also have some things similar to Inform 7 and Magic: the Gathering, as well as Lisp, Forth, Haskell, etc 04:35:29 kmc: Autoconf? Yikes. 04:35:52 yes 04:36:49 Because, if you have anything wrong with Haskell then please write it down we can make the "Ibtlfmm working group" to write everything down together how to make up the new programming language too 04:37:08 we have a fairly non-trivial configure.ac 04:37:37 so I think, while it's insane, autoconf is adding value in this project 04:37:44 i don't know of a less-insane replacement 04:38:14 "Don't", presumably. 04:38:40 well if I didn't use autoconf I would have to write a fairly complex script by hand to replicate everything that we're using autoconf for 04:38:46 maybe that's still better 04:38:51 How much stuff are you even using autoconf *for*? 04:39:25 https://github.com/keithw/mosh/blob/master/configure.ac 04:39:29 i'm adding a big chunk to this 04:39:40 to detect compiler support for various binary hardening flags 04:40:23 For example, I would, have that things like : is not built-in and [] is defined to mean something by a macro and is also not built-in and so on; as many things as possible should be implemented using macros and/or other features in the programming language itself instead of built-in to the compiler, and minimize (or eliminate) the number of special typeclasses for use by the compiler, etc 04:40:26 mosh uses terminal and network APIs and builds on GNU/Linux, OS X, FreeBSD, iOS (sort of), Android (sort of) 04:40:39 so there are a lot of platform differences to deal with 04:41:17 in addition, we have a fairly configurable build: warning level, which parts to build (client, server, tests, examples), whether to use certain libraries (and whether to get them from the system or build them with mosh), etc. 04:41:23 ... 04:41:27 AC_TYPE_SIZE_T. 04:41:34 Fail. 04:42:14 wow you found one line of this 200 line script that's unnecessary? 04:42:21 Several. 04:42:27 i guess that invalidates the entire point 04:42:30 The whole block it's in is obvious autoscan. 04:42:31 anyway you're being a dick 04:42:44 AKA "the reason autoconf scripts suck". 04:44:52 autoscan generates an autoconf script basically by scanning for each and every POSIX or ISO function or header, and adding tests for them. 04:45:11 yeah, because this was necessary 20 years ago or something 04:45:12 And given that you *probably* never use the results of that, all that is doing is adding an extra minute on your compile time. 04:45:17 anyway I agree that some lines here could be trimmed 04:45:33 do you object to the rest of the script 04:45:45 the part which implements functionality porters, distributers, and users have asked for? 04:46:22 No, looks about right for a large project that uses features that aren't extant on *all* non-insane platforms. 04:46:46 cool 04:46:47 -!- kmc has left ("Leaving"). 04:52:13 pikhq_ I just talked to Mono people 04:52:17 They they use SGEN now 04:52:23 Not BOehm GC? 04:53:17 qfr: Ah, so they must've just done the switch-over. 04:53:30 I know they spent rather a while working on a new, sane GC. 04:53:46 Well, that's good. 04:57:04 :) 04:57:07 Is SGEN alright? 04:57:11 I've heard of Boehm GC before 04:57:16 SGEN is a first for me 04:57:27 looks like it's new for mono 04:57:32 I don't exactly know the implications of garbage collection anyways 04:57:42 In my head it's all about reference counting 04:57:49 And predictable deallocatin 04:57:50 Yeah, pretty sure SGEN is the name of the for-Mono GC. 04:58:01 Are there any components of garbage collection that involve heuristics? 04:58:03 qfr: reference counting sucks 04:58:08 and yes, conservative collection 04:58:10 qfr: In Boehm, yes. 04:58:11 as practiced by boehm gc 04:58:17 elliott what's the problem with reference counting? 04:58:24 qfr: slow 04:58:37 In modern computers, memory writes are *slow*. 04:58:38 doesn't handle cycles 04:58:41 I've written an application that embedded the C Python API in another application 04:58:45 Abusing it for embedded scripting 04:58:49 Your RAM is 200MHz. 04:58:52 I remember, it required manual reference counting management 04:58:52 pikhq_: don't forget the branch accompanied with every memory write 04:58:56 yes, CPython does 04:59:00 CPython is also slow as all heck 04:59:07 Ah, and yes, branches. Which are *cheap*, but not free. 04:59:09 It was no pleasure to work with 04:59:29 anyway, the heuristic is: 04:59:31 So in general you want to accumulate groups of allocations/deallocations on the heap instead? 04:59:34 C doesn't distinguish between integers and pointers in memory 04:59:44 so, if you have an integer with the same value as a pointer 04:59:53 boehm and all conservative collectors count it as a reference 05:00:09 qfr: another slowness of refcounting is that it puts free() right there in a critical path 05:00:14 and free() can be pretty slow itself 05:00:23 qfr: what's fast is copying garbage collection 05:00:31 So the trick is that you want to invoke the heap manager as infrequently as possible? 05:00:37 Or avoiding allocation at all. 05:00:38 you just start at the roots, copy every object to a new heap, and ignore the next one (using it next GC) 05:00:39 And when you do, you want to have it do a lot? 05:00:47 even taht isn't fast though 05:00:50 a _generational_ copying collector is 05:00:55 which means you collect things more often the more recent they are 05:00:58 and do work in batches 05:01:15 so you basically just periodically copy all the live, newest objects to a new heap 05:01:18 no freeing done at all 05:01:41 How come the Oracle JVM seemingly uses excessive amounts of memory, by the way? Does that have something to do with the way it performs garbage collection? 05:01:56 I've rewritten services I had developed for java in C# 05:02:08 it doesn't, IME 05:02:15 i think that's largely stereotype 05:02:19 -!- Sato0x has joined. 05:02:21 hi 05:02:21 The non-shared working set memory would often drop from 200-300 MiB to about 50 MiB 05:02:24 For the same functionality 05:02:26 in fact, Java has the best GC in existence, more or less 05:02:27 `welcome Sato0x 05:02:30 Sato0x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 05:02:33 Hmmmm 05:02:36 is this 69? 05:02:36 ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-] 05:02:44 !brainfuck ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-] 05:02:46 qfr: That would probably be a matter of style. 05:02:47 !brainfuck ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-]. 05:02:53 Although this was a GUI application 05:02:57 Not a headless service 05:03:02 come on EgoBot 05:03:07 It was using hmm swing, I think 05:03:10 And in C# I used Winforms 05:03:13 qfr: Swing is awful 05:03:16 nobody can deny that :p 05:03:17 Swing is terribad. 05:03:19 Is Swing a memory hog? 05:03:24 That might explain it 05:03:26 !brainfuck ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-]. 05:03:29 Perhaps, but more to the point, it's ridiculous. 05:03:34 Is it doing anything? 05:03:54 yes, it's 69 05:03:54 Whenever I see a Java application it uses 2-3 times the amount of memory I would expect it to use 05:03:55 just checked 05:04:02 oh it's !bf not !brainfuck, silly me 05:04:02 !bf ++++++++++[>++++++<-]>>+++[<+++>-]. 05:04:04 Eclipse, Azure, Maple come to mind 05:04:04 No output. 05:04:07 heh 05:04:14 qfr: that's all due to the toolkits really 05:04:18 Interesting 05:04:27 Typical Java style seems to love memory. 05:04:54 So if I were to develop headless services for Linux in Java, the memory consumption wouldn't be significantly different from an equivalent implementation in C# for Mono, you would think? 05:05:05 huh 05:05:10 why no output?? 05:05:10 Probably not. 05:05:11 I work on low end Linux servers, memory consumption is quite problematic there 05:05:24 I run a lot of Ruby services right now 05:05:31 They are quite the memory hogs I'm afraid 05:05:39 Memory consumption is *in general* problematic. 05:05:43 I'm not sure how much of that it can swap out 05:05:43 hmm 05:05:45 Sato0x: is 69 even printable? 05:06:02 pikhq_ it depends on what kind of stuff you do, I have some SQL applications that are CPU/DBMS setting bottlenecked 05:06:06 Memory less so 05:06:16 But it's unhelpful when you have 1.5 GiB used by Ruby processes 05:06:18 If your working set doesn't fit in *cache*, you are going to see a ridiculous bottleneck. 05:06:25 On a 2 GiB box 05:06:36 Without getting much of them swapped out 05:06:44 gah 05:06:53 Accessing the actual RAM is what swap was like 20 years ago. 05:07:00 +. should be 1 right? 05:07:04 output* 05:07:12 !bf +. 05:07:12 ​. 05:07:13 pikhq_ yeah, the working set isn't that big I think 05:07:14 Sato0x: It will output the ASCII code for 1. 05:07:18 Erm. 05:07:22 whut 05:07:22 The ASCII equivalent for 1. 05:07:34 What is the equiv? 05:07:36 Measuring memory consumption accurately on Linux is tricky I am told 05:07:44 It depends on what definition of memory consumption you use etc 05:07:57 And you need to take into account shared memory/non-shared memory between fork instances and such 05:08:04 is that 50? 05:08:06 Sato0x: Codepoint 1 is defined as "Start Of Heading", an essentially useless control code. 05:08:16 Linux sysadmins tell me to largely ignore the output from htop and such regarding memory consumption 05:08:16 o 05:08:19 It's by char? 05:08:34 49 (U+0031) would get you the actual digit "1". 05:08:39 I have to call the char code? 05:08:41 :< 05:08:41 Yes. 05:08:55 so I'd have to do 49 1's 05:09:02 +'s* 05:09:12 Or a more complex loop, yes. 05:09:33 I c, 05:09:36 !bf +++++++[>+++++++<-]. 05:09:37 No output. 05:09:40 BAH 05:09:47 !bf +++++++[>+++++++<-]>. 05:09:47 1 05:09:48 I thought that + added one to the current 05:09:53 Sato0x: Yes. 05:10:05 literally 05:10:06 value one 05:10:08 in int 05:10:09 s 05:11:06 Am I using the loops right then?(in the case that bf worked like I'm thinking it does) 05:11:37 Um, seems like it. 05:11:42 yay 05:11:43 :D 05:25:55 -!- kmc has joined. 05:28:38 "Start Of Heading" is not really a useless control code; it can be used, and so can other ASCII control codes 05:29:26 zzo38: Yeah, but nothing common actually *does* use it any more. :) 05:30:24 I have used it sometimes, when there is a heading I want to indicate the start, in an ASCII file, or in an internal ASCII data in memory, might use it 05:34:23 I wanted to make up the game "Merciful to Gibbering Mouthers" but I cannot figure it out. Also many other computer games and card games and stuff, I wanted to make up, including sokoban or tetris or whatever with mobius strips, etc 05:51:00 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:54:14 I was looking at the Reddit source code, I had no idea it used to run on Lisp and then migrated to Python 05:54:25 And they use PostgreSQL it seems <3 05:56:27 I wonder if it had anything to do with the rarity of professional Lisp developers 05:56:49 The number of developers you need is something like O(log(n)) where n is the size of the userbase 05:57:08 Hmm that's the wrong class 05:57:40 Should I make that Omega instead of O? Heh 05:57:59 No, you should make it Ouch 05:58:22 :( 05:59:02 But I imagine this can be a problem with big projects 05:59:20 Rarity of developers available in the area 05:59:26 Who actually know the technology used well enough 05:59:48 So you can increase the size of the labour pool that is available to you 05:59:56 By using different technology 06:00:05 i think they used Lisp to impress Paul Graham when they were in YC 06:00:08 and then came to their fucking senses 06:00:08 Haha 06:00:20 I take it you are not a friend of the Lisps? 06:00:36 you're wrong 06:00:37 I dabbled with Common Lisp for a bit 06:00:46 And wrote ~400 lines of elisp 06:00:47 i like languages in the Lisp family 06:00:49 That's about it 06:00:56 but i wouldn't try to build a buisness around one, in most circumstances 06:01:06 because it is hard to hire people, like you said 06:01:13 and there are good alternatives now 06:01:23 when Paul Graham was making ViaWeb, his competitors were using C++ or maybe Perl 06:01:29 But as usual my main beef with the language is that it's typed dynamically 06:01:39 now we have Python, Ruby, Javascript, etc 06:01:44 I'm much more comfortable developing services with statically typed languages 06:01:46 they're not as pretty as Scheme or as sophisticated as Common Lisp 06:01:55 Because of more rigorous compile time checks being possible 06:01:57 but they get the job done and plenty of people know them 06:02:00 Catching a lot of dumb mistakes I make 06:02:19 yeah, I agree 06:02:33 I tried to write services in dynamically typed languages for a while 06:02:36 Python and Ruby in particular 06:02:41 But I felt it backfired a lot 06:02:52 I was running after dumb runtime errors all the time 06:03:01 the trends in hipster web startups are against static languages 06:03:03 because I had misspelled the name of some method in a rarely executed branch 06:03:17 it's all about "iterating" a ball-of-mud non-design 06:03:19 Which would crash the server after 1-2 days 06:03:27 and slapping clusters and load balancers on everything 06:03:34 And I didn't feel the need to make rigorous unit tests 06:03:37 That would have caught these 06:03:48 so that your individual software can crash or use up all memory for no reason 06:03:55 Haha 06:04:12 i think dynamic types are ok for some things, but you at least want basic static checking of method names and the like 06:04:12 Most of my services are still written in Ruby :| I'm currently tryinmg to move on to C# 06:04:17 pyflakes does that for python a bit 06:04:20 I'm still insecure about the web development patterns I am used 06:04:29 I am still torn up about where markup generation belongs 06:04:36 I am using* 06:04:48 you can have a language where some type errors can be resolved at compile time, but others are punted to runtime 06:04:57 C# and Java are this in a sense 06:05:03 I still use Ruby for odd jobs all the time 06:05:10 In particular scraping stuff from a website for some quick job 06:05:28 Plain text transformation jobs 06:07:10 hello 06:07:21 I finished my brainfawk interpreter 06:07:48 is it good? 06:07:56 is brainfawk different from brainfuck 06:08:01 yeah 06:08:06 I like my way better 06:08:16 it's not on the wiki; what does it do? 06:08:30 I had a misconception about brainfuck 06:08:38 oh? 06:08:42 and like the way I was doing it better 06:08:46 therefore it's not brainfuck 06:08:50 it's brainfawk 06:08:56 what was the misconception 06:09:22 I assumed that each element was an individual value of 0 at the start 06:09:36 it is... 06:09:42 and you incremented/decremented each element through the program 06:09:47 you do 06:09:50 not done 06:09:51 ... 06:09:57 what do you think it is 06:10:15 and that . would print the number value of the element 06:10:30 it prints the ascii char 06:10:32 but in brainfuck it goes with the ascii char 06:10:33 yeah 06:10:36 but i don't know what your other things mean 06:10:39 well not ascii 06:10:41 it's actually just binary 06:10:47 decimal? 06:11:23 no 06:12:12 It outputs just a bitstream, which is going to be interpreted as ASCII (well, actually, it's liable to be interpreted as UTF-8 with VT100 control codes) 06:12:26 all of my brainfuck programs output KOI8-R, i don't know about you 06:12:54 Ah, maximally esoteric. 06:13:17 huh? 06:13:34 eh it's not a very esoteric character encoding 06:13:43 what isn't? 06:13:47 KOI8-R 06:13:54 kmc 06:13:57 Sato0x 06:13:59 that name sounds familiar 06:14:04 maybe gny 06:14:07 kmc: Could go for something stranger. Is there an Arabic adaptation of EBCDIC? 06:14:14 heh 06:14:26 brainfawk has integers and spaces 06:14:43 printf '\x01' | iconv -f cp437 -t utf8 06:14:48 why doesn't this give me a smiley face?!? 06:15:03 Sato0x: Seems fairly unuseful. 06:15:06 Allaah doesn't love you enough, kmc 06:15:06 so brainfawk is pretty much your average brainfuck derivative 06:15:13 That's why you don't get a smiley 06:15:38 i guess it only sometimes stands for a smiley 06:15:44 by the way, where's ph 06:15:49 and other times it's SOH 06:15:50 does allaah love me 06:16:13 Yes, Allaah loves Haskell people 06:16:18 ﷺ 06:16:21 But only those who are lost in discussing abstract concepts 06:16:32 If you start actually coding in Haskell, the love fades 06:16:39 i've done that 06:16:42 you disapprove of brainfawk? 06:16:43 :( 06:16:46 am i a haskell people 06:16:47 one of my multitude of sins 06:16:56 Sato0x, we see so many brainfuck derivatives 06:17:02 and brainfuck isn't that weird to begin with 06:17:02 hm 06:17:21 it's a very vanilla sort of tape machine 06:17:33 in fact very similar constructions were developed in early theoretical computer science 06:17:33 brainfuck derivative is just about as unoriginal as you can get, so it has to be pretty spectacular to be any good 06:17:42 * pikhq_ bows 06:18:38 Dimensifuck really was kinda neat. Shame I never did anything with it. 06:18:39 0 is space, 1 in n/l 06:18:40 :3 06:19:16 eh? 06:20:40 how about 06:20:46 one that takes in octal 06:21:02 what do you mean "one" 06:21:08 Trust me, the IO is really uninteresting. 06:21:13 a deriviative 06:21:18 hm 06:21:47 renaming bf instructions is probably the worst thing you can do, i/o is second-worst, additional commands third-worst? 06:22:03 maybe swap those 06:22:07 or put them all together as 06:22:12 the worst thing package bundle 06:22:16 "don't do this" 06:22:28 Really, the only thing slightly interesting about Brainfuck is that it's a Turing tarpit that can just about input and output all valid strings, that happens to be relatively popular. 06:22:47 "just about" 06:22:50 as long as they contain no 0s 06:22:51 just about! 06:22:58 huh? 06:23:04 What do you mean 06:23:18 elliott: Well, if you use 16-bit Brainfuck and -1 on EOF it actually works. 06:23:19 :) 06:23:25 (but that's certainly not normal) 06:23:49 bignum BF, EOF = -1 is vaguely sensible 06:24:16 white people are evil 06:24:34 I think all the Brainfuck I've written breaks on bignum BF. Also >8-bit BF. 06:24:47 Sato0x: [citation needed] 06:25:17 don't you just have that gut feeling 06:25:18 this conversation is headed places 06:25:21 I sure know I'm evil! 06:26:37 i'm white and i can confirm this 06:26:48 elliott: [pics or gtfo] 06:26:51 :P 06:26:53 i'm also a sinner though so i'm not sure how much that counts for 06:28:18 Why? Have you done anything that is haraam? 06:28:25 have you consumed pork or drunk alcohol? 06:28:39 i got drunk with a pig, does that count 06:28:54 qfr: Heck, I did both at the same time earlier today. 06:28:56 You make the prophet cry! 06:29:09 i've consumed pork 06:29:11 no alcohol 06:29:32 And I would do it again, for pig-meat is glorious. 06:29:40 I've consumed mouthwash 06:29:44 that has alcohol in it right 06:29:53 monqy: Depends on the mouthwash. 06:29:59 I think mine does 06:30:03 Listerine? 06:30:16 I switched to non-alcholic mouthwash 06:30:32 Because I heard of studies that showed a slight increase in mouth cancer 06:30:35 I think it's listerine but I don't check the labels I just wash my mouth 06:30:36 In those who used alcoholic mouthwash 06:31:01 i don't have lung cancer 06:31:01 i am lung cancer 06:31:09 Do you smoke? :( 06:31:42 no 06:31:45 i am smoke 06:31:58 How many cigs are you per day 06:32:05 20? 30? 06:32:06 0 06:40:39 elliott: Wait, school = smoke? 06:51:03 mew 06:51:22 mew 06:51:53 it's now plain old brainfuck in php 06:52:42 anybody want to collaborate on a new esoteric lang? 06:53:16 what new language 06:53:22 a new one? 06:53:42 yeah 06:54:01 what's your idea Sato0x 06:54:35 a racist programming language 06:54:49 Hay! That's racist! 06:54:57 xD 06:55:01 zzo38++ # hero 06:55:05 Anyway, there are already plenty of those. 06:55:10 there are? 06:55:12 Every language that assumes its input is ASCII. 06:55:14 Right, kmc? 06:55:15 shachaf++ 06:55:22 ,, 06:55:42 https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=racist+programming+language 06:57:47 no there aren't 06:57:49 :( 06:57:59 "It's clever, but the use of color to discriminate between browsers in both cases is unfortunate; it evokes comparisons with our cultural history of racism and segregation." 06:58:03 Do you expect Google to tell you everything? 06:58:05 thanks Coding Horror, I can always rely on you to be fucking moronic 06:58:15 did u know serving differently styled webpage to IE6 = raciesm? 06:58:28 lol 06:58:41 I did a lot of JavaScript recently 06:58:45 I gave up on anything below IE9 06:58:46 liar 06:58:51 No, I'm serious 06:58:56 sato hates javascript 06:59:06 sato only uses it for ajax.. 06:59:10 https://github.com/epicvrvs/RiotControl/tree/master/Web/Script/Module 06:59:10 and some other stuff 06:59:13 who's sato 06:59:34 me 06:59:38 I made a project where pretty much the entire web content is generated by JavaScript :| 06:59:45 No regular HTML at all 06:59:50 Except to load one JavaScritp file 06:59:55 sounds cool 07:00:08 You might wonder "why would you ever do that" 07:00:18 it's becoming more common 07:00:20 It's a centralised web interface for local server instances people run 07:00:38 The JavaScript then queries their local servers to get JSON data 07:00:42 I didn't wonder that 07:00:48 there is a philosophy that your web service should be a backend with a public API, and the web frontend is just one of many frontends people could write 07:00:57 And when I want to modify the "soft logic" of the application I just modify the JavaScript 07:00:58 and so of course the service has no business generating HTML 07:01:01 And the changes go live everywhere 07:01:09 rather you write some HTML and CSS and Javascript as a separate project 07:01:18 and that JS talks to the backend's API and generates views locally 07:01:19 I have a philosophy that lynx should be a viable browser. 07:01:23 Unluckily this also resulted in stuff like I making a mistake in some file without testing it properly 07:01:28 And then going to sleep 07:01:32 there are Javascript MVC libraries for this purpose 07:01:35 And waking up to hundreds of people screaming at me 07:01:40 If you want it secure, you could use SSH 07:01:41 I have a philosophy that yeah.. 07:01:42 Because I broke all instances of the application around the world 07:01:49 shh 07:01:52 By modifying the centralised script data 07:01:59 I like to unpack my MCV into a construction yard. 07:02:23 a browser is something that views documents 07:02:28 And I made it a web GUI so people could also expose their service to the world if they wanted to, which went as planned 07:02:44 firefox and chrome are not just browsers; they're virtual machines for running arbitrary applications which happen to be delivered over HTTP 07:02:51 lynx is still a fine browser 07:03:05 and the fact that it does not run arbitrary applications delivered over HTTP might be considered one of its strengths 07:03:07 ^ 07:03:17 kmc: Yes, true 07:03:21 Firebug <3 07:03:34 Inspect Element <3 07:03:38 Javascript/CSS/HTML/HTTP is such a pitiful application stack. 07:03:38 kmc I somewhat realised that when I looked at that SQLite manager for Firefox 07:03:50 it is pretty weird 07:03:52 It's like an entire application running through the Firefox toolkit 07:03:54 It's pretty weird 07:03:58 I think it uses CSS internally 07:04:05 XUL 07:04:09 pikhq_: I agree Javascript/CSS/HTML/HTTP is a stupid application stack you can make something better surely. 07:04:14 on the other hand unix sockets and X11 and GTK is also a weird stack if you look at it right 07:04:14 qfr: Firefox *itself* is written that way. 07:04:19 :O 07:04:25 and it's written mostly in unsafe languages 07:04:25 kmc ya hehe 07:04:29 kmc: No argument. 07:04:37 the stacks people use tend to be weird 07:04:46 hi 07:04:55 X11 is at *least* as bad as the Javascript/CSS/HTML/HTTP stack. 07:04:58 XUL is one thing, but you can also use a telnet application for remote service; SSH if you need secure and a few other functions too. But, there is also gopher, FTP, IRC, use whatever work in this case 07:05:48 you know what the only non-weird stack is 07:05:48 @ 07:05:51 checkmate assholes 07:05:58 fuck all of you, why haven't you implemented @ yet 07:06:01 god 07:06:18 and now i have to compile haskell-src-exts 07:06:20 today is awful 07:06:34 elliott: Why haven't *you* implemented @ yet? I don't know how and probably everyone else also probably doesn't know how 07:06:55 because i'm lazy 07:07:14 what are you guys writing? 07:07:28 calamari: Do you mean me or elliott? 07:08:15 let me rephrase, what are you guys talking about? 07:08:22 @ 07:08:27 calamari: Read it! 07:08:32 what language is that 07:08:36 hey guys 07:08:42 or is the language called "@"? " 07:09:00 What's that esoteric language derived from something in diablo 07:09:12 calamari: the language can be called @ 07:09:14 but it's not a language 07:09:26 O, it is a computer 07:10:17 no 07:10:31 O, it is a punctuation mark 07:10:47 ?? 07:10:53 @ is a vaporware OS 07:10:57 there's a language 07:11:01 that's like 07:11:02 written in @lang, which is a vaporware language 07:11:09 um 07:11:12 only neither @ nor @lang are their actual names, they're just placeholders 07:11:22 lol 07:11:30 we know a few details about @, and none about @lang (except that it's defined to be perfect) 07:11:40 it's not! 07:11:45 also, *vapourware 07:12:16 ?//// 07:12:16 Unknown command, try @list 07:12:18 ?????????/ 07:18:28 ais523: is @ the same thing as @lang? 07:18:39 itidus20: no, they're an OS and language respectively 07:18:50 I made a program to draw a triangle on a DVI document, but, how to make draw polygon, ellipse, line of thickness, path of line segments of specified thickness such that they will be joined together properly, ... 07:18:53 but the two are quite linked 07:19:01 sort-of like UNIX and C in terms of their relationship 07:19:02 he just might manage to do it 07:19:53 Iff we lock him in a hotel room and don't let him out until he has a beta. 07:20:21 pikhq_: And a computer 07:20:31 but a rushed @ might not be the actual @ 07:20:48 ais523: much closer 07:20:48 Like he'll rush. 07:20:51 in fact, @lang is just @ 07:20:52 you might end up with some mes like javascript 07:20:55 He'll be there for years. 07:20:56 :) 07:21:02 ^mess 07:21:02 the distinction is nothing, it's meaningless 07:21:11 actually i'm lying there to further the myth 07:21:19 they're properly separate in my in-revision @ design 07:21:28 (I think @ was self-contradictory, so I started ripping it apart) 07:21:29 ooh, I've got a new esolang idea 07:21:36 an esolang that… is a parody of itself 07:21:40 this is its only reason for existence 07:21:42 and it parodies /that/ too 07:21:58 * ais523 wonders how to create it 07:22:03 it probably doesn't actually need a spec 07:22:38 ais523: Is mentioning it on the joke language list sufficient? 07:22:49 I don't think so 07:22:53 designing the parody lang sounds similar to writing a quine 07:23:03 it has to actually be a parody of itself, not just be defined to be a parody of itself 07:23:05 itidus20: agreed 07:23:23 pikhq_: btw, I don't have any particular problems being locked in a hotel room with a computer 07:23:54 OK. I don't know how a quine would be written in this context but OK 07:24:05 zzo38: its just a metaphor 07:24:29 But yes it does seem like a quine to me too once you explain a bit 07:24:58 How can you write a quine in itself? 07:25:07 well... ok.. you begin with a language-writing language 07:25:14 elliott: And no internet. So you might actually be productive. :P 07:25:19 and you start making statements in it 07:25:20 fuck that 07:25:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:25:27 like uhh.. 07:25:30 brainfuck 07:25:42 the parody could be written in brainfuck 07:26:07 no im totally missing the point 07:30:30 hi 07:32:24 If you do not know where you are, but you have the correct date and time (in UTC), and you can see outside, but cannot identify any landmarks, then can you figure out your location? 07:32:35 oh yeat 07:32:38 yeah 07:32:51 malbolge 07:32:57 that one 07:33:25 If someone takes you in a dark plane to somewhere so that you cannot know where you are, will they steal your watch too? 07:33:57 ..... 07:35:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:36:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:38:36 yes 07:39:26 OK, then, how will you determine your location? 07:39:38 you won't.. 07:50:45 -!- nortti has joined. 07:56:23 @time 07:56:24 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 9 08:56:51 07:57:10 #time 07:57:12 !time 07:57:18 1time 07:57:20 3time 07:57:22 2time 07:57:25 @time 07:57:25 Local time for Sato0x is Mon Apr 09 03:57:23 2012 08:01:09 zzo38: I think you'd need to know which way north was 08:01:21 then you could, if you were good enough at estimating which way the sun was 08:01:51 at local midday, your shadow points exactly north or south; the UTC time then lets you calculate longitude, and the length and direction of the shadow latitude 08:04:43 kmc: Did you see http://exploit-exercises.com/ ? 08:05:05 I wonder whether it's any good. Downloading a VM is kind of a big up-front cost. 08:06:35 elliott: Is @ a DHT? 08:06:37 It should be. 08:07:36 btw, git's interface for merges really sucks 08:07:50 shachaf: No. 08:08:02 the only solution I've found for a complex merge is to make one stab at it, commit, then rebase fixes onto it until it compiles and merges… 08:08:35 -!- NSQX has joined. 08:08:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:NSQX/CPUFuck.cpp 08:09:08 A program which will convert any text into a brainfuck program which will display the text 08:09:22 !bf_txtgen hello 08:09:28 ​56 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++.>++. [136] 08:09:51 !bf_txtgen This is much more efficient on longer strings than your method. 08:09:54 ​557 +++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>------.++++++++++++++++++++.+.>-----.>++.<<.>.>.<<++++.>++.------------------.>>-.<.<<.++.+++.>++.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+..>>+.<--.>.----.<+++++++++++.<<++.>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------.<+.<++++++++.>>.<---.<+.-.<-------------.--.>>++++++.>.<+.+.--.<-----.+++++.-------.>+.>.<+.<+.<----.>++++++.>>.<+++++.<+.>----.---. 08:10:09 although far from perfect, it seems 08:10:19 yes, !bf_txtgen is actually kind of rubbish :) 08:10:25 elliott: Aw. I thought you said it was. 08:10:32 shachaf: You can implement a DHT with it. 08:10:44 elliott: !bf_txtgen is Kolmogorovically optimal, right?! 08:11:16 NSQX: do you have a local copy of nbf2c? because we need to delete the mislicensed copy on the wiki 08:12:09 Yes, I have a local copy. 08:12:13 OK 08:15:07 ais523: Yes it is as I thought; but, is it necessary to know which way is north, or can that be determined by the passing of the time? And what if you do not even have the UTC time of day (but you do know which month it is)? 08:15:57 zzo38: I guess you could work out north by averaging the position of sunset and sunrise and correcting for the earth's rotation 08:16:03 would be quite slow, though 08:16:22 I think without knowing north, you'd have to observe both a sunset and a sunrise to calculate your location 08:16:44 Yes, I thought that might help 08:16:45 without knowing UTC time of day, you can't calculate longitude to any accuracy; latitude is still possible 08:17:23 gah git, why do you have to end up repeatedly conflicting just because I tried to edit an older patch? 08:18:51 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:18:55 Would the moon help? 08:19:04 actually, I think the problem is that I edited a correction into the wrong patch originally, and it moved to the correct patch via a series of conflicts when I tried to make another change to that patch 08:19:50 shachaf, cool 08:20:30 has a lot of levels 08:20:39 There's only one bug in my CPUFuck.cpp program: An extra '.' is added at the end 08:20:43 (Since the moon moves faster) 08:20:43 looks like much of the code is online 08:21:09 NSQX: Then fix it 08:22:46 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:23:18 -!- NSQX has joined. 08:24:15 http://brainfu.ck/++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++..----.------------------------------------------------------.-----------..+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++.-----------------.++++++++.+++++.--------.+++++++++++++++.-----------------------------------------------------------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 08:24:49 -!- NSQX has left. 08:26:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:27:00 Oops! Google Chrome could not find brainfu.ck 08:27:01 :/ 08:27:26 hi nsqx bye nsqx 08:27:42 -!- NSQX has joined. 08:27:46 hi 08:27:54 btw, .ck doesn't take registrations at second-level 08:27:59 so brainfu.ck can't be registered 08:28:43 Everyone, would you prefer !bf_textgen or http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:NSQX/CPUFuck.cpp? 08:29:11 And even if it is does not necessarily mean there is an HTTP service there, and even if there is HTTP service doesn't necessarily mean it is on port 80, and even if it does have HTTP service on port 80 does not necessarily mean it isn't temporarily down 08:29:11 I wouldn't use either 08:30:50 -!- NSQX has left. 08:30:54 -!- NSQX has joined. 08:30:59 -!- NSQX has left. 08:31:05 -!- NSQX has joined. 08:31:07 bye nsqx hi nsqx bye nsqx hi nsqx 08:31:40 -!- NSQX has left. 08:31:49 bye nsqx 08:31:55 what's up with that guy 08:33:57 monqy, you haven't said hi to him frequently enough 08:34:12 hi monqy 08:34:24 hi 08:34:37 Sgeo: hi 08:34:55 "Yay", NSQX made a program similar to a script I included with the PSOX stuff 08:34:58 Yipideedoo 08:35:02 hi 08:35:11 Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird 08:35:12 At any rate, !bf_txtgen produces more compact code. 08:36:28 `addquote Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird 08:36:37 825) Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird 08:36:53 monqy: What were your requirements? 08:37:03 strict that's what 08:37:11 but what WERE they 08:37:12 They were also requirements! 08:37:22 sgeo hits the nail right on the head 08:37:39 :-( 08:37:48 hi monqy 08:37:52 hi 08:37:52 I have strict requirements too. 08:38:27 monqy: what WERE THEY!!!! 08:38:40 I forget exactly what they were 08:39:00 mcstar> i didnt know haskell supported C# and F# 08:39:06 Only on ubuntu freebsd. 08:39:42 something to do with abrupt conversation derailments, particularly when the new subject is stupid 08:40:18 What if the hi is the new subject? 08:40:50 hi 08:40:58 hi "ais523" 08:41:02 hi 08:41:10 hi 08:41:11 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf. 08:41:25 hi 08:43:12 hi 08:43:22 monqy: can we go back to the old kind of his 08:43:24 these are getting old 08:43:31 ill swear of hi forever 08:43:33 *offe 08:43:41 his what? 08:44:08 elliott: I'll try but it's hard when everyone else is saying hi all the time! 08:44:10 pikhq I stand corrected, a Mono dev just told me their new generational GC is only used in mobile Mono applications right now 08:44:17 It's not used by default in regualr Mono yet 08:44:21 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to swhat. 08:44:25 Sgeo: plural of hi 08:44:29 swhat: hi 08:44:35 monqy, hi 08:44:39 GC:TNR 08:44:49 R? 08:45:00 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 08:45:03 I mean G. 08:45:16 Or maybe The Nomad.Reader. 08:45:40 shachaf: will you swear off hi forever 08:45:49 * pikhq notes the kola borehole is awesome 08:46:05 monqy: :-( 08:46:22 Why? 08:47:07 it was a question not a command; you can hi all you want 08:50:14 What is the best garbage collection technology around right now, in your opinion? 08:50:36 ask RocketJSquirrel :p 08:50:40 `quote memory management 08:50:40 For desktop/server stuff 08:50:43 405) You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management" 08:50:44 Not embedded 08:50:50 RocketJSquirrel isn't embedded 08:51:50 I'd say collecting your own garbage 08:52:28 yeah, everybody knows the additional cognitive burden of tracking every data dependency through your program is worth it -- because then it's faster. oh wait! manual memory management isn't actually faster 08:52:39 -!- cheater__ has joined. 08:52:39 oh it wasn't for embedded systems 08:52:51 hmm, I'd say manual memory management is /sometimes/ faster, depending on what you're doing 08:53:20 what might be interesting would be compile-time GC 08:53:33 where it statically analyzes the program to work out where all the free()s have to go 08:53:39 see region inference 08:53:41 obviously wouldn't always be possible, but for many programs it would be 08:54:18 http://www.mono-project.com/Generational_GC 08:54:39 is gggggggggc a thing 08:55:04 on the subject of GC, apparently Go's GC is far too conservative 08:55:33 and ends up sometimes not collecting anything just because there's a pointer-like bit pattern in memory sometimes 08:55:44 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:55:52 (people have accused 1.0f as being a common culprit) 08:57:31 That's so odd, does it have no information about the types of objects stored? 08:57:45 no, Go has the operational semantics of C 08:57:52 the GC doesn't, no, it's just a conservative GC 08:57:53 That sounds awful 08:58:13 and apparently, unlike Boehm, it doesn't refuse to allocate stuff at addresses that already happen to share a bit-pattern with something in memory 08:58:17 (a good way to keep down false positives) 08:58:23 (although obviously not a perfect one) 08:59:41 scarf: And has a neat effect of reducing your address space further. 08:59:50 indeed! 09:00:32 although the sorts of programs that use conservative GCs tend to also be the sorts of programs where running out of address space mean you're also close to running out of actual physical memory 09:01:32 What major implementations of interpreters/VMs use reference counting? 09:01:36 CPython, who else? 09:02:51 perl 09:02:56 both have GCs for cycles iirc 09:03:02 elliott: Perl doesn't 09:03:08 cycles are documented as not being collected 09:03:37 the occasional library that actually uses them typically has a ->delete method and asks you to call it when you're done, and the method breaks the cycle and leaves the object to be GCed normally 09:04:03 -!- Sato0x has quit (Quit: Page closed). 09:04:29 monqy: hi is addictive :-( 09:04:42 :( 09:05:48 kmc: x86 instruction encoding looks complicated. 09:06:02 indeed 09:06:09 Should I learn how it works? 09:06:18 i don't know much about it 09:06:20 Today I saw a good-looking article on it, but I lost it. 09:10:46 I once wrote a program in C which encodes some x86 instructions 09:11:14 i did some class on that in school once 09:12:00 _everything_ here (in #esoteric) is more complicated than x86 anyway 09:12:31 ok well it wasn't a class it was just a sort of topic 09:12:33 BF encoding is way simpler than x86. 09:13:45 but more programs are encoded in x86 than BF :P 09:13:52 _everything_ here (in #esoteric) is more complicated than x86 anyway 09:13:52 uh 09:13:59 a few more 09:14:19 why do you repeatedly say things that are completely, obviously incorrect? 09:14:37 kmc: it could be that i am actually overestimating everyones intelligence here because i don't understand what it is they do 09:15:03 you're also falsely equating "complexity" and "intelligence" 09:15:14 a good esolang has a small definition with rich emergent behavior 09:15:23 x86 has huge piles of arbitrary / historical complexity 09:15:37 kmc: What about C++? 09:15:42 I guess you would count that as a bad esolang. 09:15:52 i am amused that anyone who can keep up with esolangs would be worried about x86 encoding 09:16:07 x86 encoding keeps me up at night. 09:16:16 ...Technically that is true. 09:16:21 likewise 09:16:29 but i would probably be awake anyway :) 09:16:36 Likewise. 09:17:04 02:16 < edwardk> likewise 09:17:05 does not compute 09:17:14 SYNCHRONICITY???? 09:17:50 kmc: I've ruined edwardk's day by making him spend 5 hours updating packages just so I could make a package work on Hugs to prove a point. 09:18:07 kmc: You should read Raymond Smullyan. 09:18:10 i guess what i mean is that out of all possible topics here, x86 encoding is surely one of the most trivial 09:18:12 That's the kind of quality you can expect when you allow me to talk to you! 09:18:37 elliott: What's the point? 09:18:38 itidus20, but that's just a completely false statement 09:18:42 it doesn't require any mind-bending to grasp it 09:18:52 itidus20: Do you know how x86 encoding works? 09:18:53 I don't. 09:18:59 i don't see how you can use the word "surely" when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about 09:19:14 i recall it has something like 3bits for 1 thing 3 bits for another thing then another 2 bits 09:19:17 for 8bit 09:19:20 kmc: Not having any idea what you're talking about makes it very easy to use the word "surely". :-) 09:19:23 i'm not trying to be mean here 09:19:26 but probably gets more complex as it goes into 64bits 09:19:30 i'm just honestly baffled by the way you communicate 09:19:32 3 bits for 1 thing 3 bits for another and 2 bits there. 09:19:35 That sounds right. 09:19:42 x86 modes are 8 bits and 64 bits? 09:20:00 kmc: No, it's a continuum with 8 and 64 at the extremes. 09:20:03 i don't know all the details :-s 09:20:07 Right now I'm using about 38 bits. 09:20:13 elliott: What's the point? 09:20:22 shachaf: That the fast impl of reflection is not totally unportable. 09:20:24 itidus20, no, you don't know *any* of the details 09:20:35 you know *negative* details because the things you think you know are wrong 09:20:53 kmc: To itidus20, "surely" means "I'm posturing this absurd statement to try and be seen as somebody with insight and/or as trolling" 09:21:00 HTH. 09:21:18 kmc: A great work of art uses positive space and negative space. 09:21:29 itidus20 knows negative details. 09:21:55 this statement is insightful and/or trolling 09:27:33 i remain surprised. 09:30:49 ok im trolling 09:31:48 -!- swhat has changed nick to Sgeo. 09:34:01 -!- cheater__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:36:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:37:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:41:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:43:22 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:49:27 -!- david_werecat has joined. 09:58:24 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:58:54 -!- Case1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:08:28 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:10:11 -!- calamari has joined. 10:10:13 -!- calamari has left. 10:30:27 -!- derdon has joined. 10:31:10 -!- cheater has joined. 10:42:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:44:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:49:52 hi Phantom_Hoover 10:50:08 bye elliott 11:02:59 The ways of the world ^ 11:46:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 11:46:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:12:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:12:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:26:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:26:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:46:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:25:26 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 13:28:49 you know what the world needs? an Achron/Adanaxis crossover 13:29:43 thank you keep talking 13:31:24 scarf: tell me about linux 13:31:29 and checkout 13:31:35 and mediawiki 13:31:42 and C++ 13:31:44 but those aren't as mindbreaking 13:31:48 well, apart from perhaps C++ 13:32:34 scarf: i don't care just keep the words 13:33:46 scarf: more 13:33:48 scarf: words 13:34:02 elliott: you probably need to go to bed again :) 13:34:37 scarf: no it's not that 13:35:48 scarf: tell me about the decimalisation of the UK currency system 13:36:00 (i actually want to know this) 13:36:23 I don't know a whole lot… 13:37:09 bah 13:37:17 reading it on wikipedia spoils the magic 13:37:36 like did everyone have to change their currency one day 13:37:46 was there a big day of noneconomics because nobody could do anything but currency-change 13:40:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx1EwdbmrR4 awesome 13:41:38 "Biggest rip off in the 20th century. Change a thousand year old system which worked fine to please the foreigners and rip off the British public at the same time. Welcome to modern Britain!" 13:43:59 elliott: The USA has non-decimal units of measure. Something we are mocked for by all other nations on a near-constant basis. Be glad your country managed to get off non-decimal currency ;) 13:45:10 RocketJSquirrel: Well yeah but it's MOSTLY decimal. 13:45:23 Dollars and cents make sense (HAR HAR HAR), you just have weird historical nicknames. 13:45:53 ... wut ... 13:46:01 Our currency is decimal in every sense ... 13:46:08 -!- david_werecat has joined. 13:46:09 -!- Case1 has joined. 13:46:09 I'm talking about units of MEASURE. 13:46:21 Ohhhhhhhhhh 13:46:27 The nicknames are for coins, not amounts of money, btw. 13:46:28 I totally misread your original line, sorry :P 13:46:51 RocketJSquirrel: Yeah, your units are stupid. But we have the same problems at a smaller scale. 13:47:00 Feet and inches are how we measure height, and distances are in miles. 13:47:15 Thankfully we've more-or-less exterminated the old weights through force. 13:48:22 is there any logic in conversion from inches to feet or feet to miles? 13:48:36 or is it just some random value 13:49:41 nortti: Each length was derived from some real-world amount that was vaguely useful at the time, but we've lost most of the intermediary units that made things add up sensibly. 13:50:25 ok 13:50:26 1 ft = 0.000189393939 mi 13:50:26 e.g. a mile is 8 furlongs, and a furlong is 220 yards. 13:50:36 1 foot = 1/3 yards, though. 13:50:41 furlong? 13:50:44 And 1 mile = 1760 yards. 13:50:50 It makes sense in base 12 or summat. 13:50:59 nortti: Exactly. 14:20:56 also does farenhait scale have any sensible origin? 14:22:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:22:40 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 14:22:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:24:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:25:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:26:24 also does farenhait scale have any sensible origin? 14:26:32 nortti: Freezing point of brine, body temperature of a horse. 14:26:59 It is not, contrary to popular misconception, the body temperature of Farenheit with a fever. 14:27:05 (Person, not scale) 14:28:05 The freezing point of brine was chosen because it was the lowest temperature that was both used in practical life and relatively easy to measure. The body temperature of a horse was chosen because our society is seriously horses all the way down. 14:54:25 [15:50:41] furlong? 14:54:33 It's a unit of distance used by furries 14:54:47 A furlong is the height of an average yiff 14:55:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:57:12 qfr: HOLY CRAP YIFFS ARE F***ING (no pun intended) HUGE 15:02:19 Well, the good ones are. 15:05:48 @time fizzie 15:05:49 Local time for fizzie is Mon Apr 9 18:05:48 2012 15:28:40 -!- Case1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:32:25 More depressing than those "This is a once-in-a-lifetime calendar event" things: 15:32:52 Seeing one that was literally taken from last year, with the current year slapped on it, such that it doesn't even match this year's calendar. 15:33:26 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=424793280870274&set=p.424793280870274&type=1&theater 15:41:59 http://www.bitc-lang.org/pipermail/bitc-dev/2012-April/003315.html 15:43:23 Seen, but Deewiant++ anyway 15:46:13 http://imgur.com/QRTYk 15:46:45 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 15:47:00 Thanks, I wanted a screenshot of that page you just linked 15:47:24 Oh, I forgot I linked 15:51:51 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z. I do not like them in a tree. I do not like them in the fog, I do not like them on a log. I do not like rot' maze, you see, I prefer my lab'rinth's normalcy. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 15:53:21 Idonno why this Dr. Seuss guy thinks he's so hot. I could do that shit. 15:53:42 *throws sympathetic apostrophes EVERYWHERE* 16:00:25 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 16:07:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:01 oh, apparently bitc had "transcode C++ code without re-architecting at the same time." as a goal 16:27:26 sounds like SVN's "let's fix CVS" idea 16:35:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:37:27 -!- augur has joined. 16:44:11 -!- Mortchek has joined. 16:49:08 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:50:32 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:59:46 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: häivyn). 16:59:50 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:05:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 17:05:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:13:39 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 17:16:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:17:06 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 17:18:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:19:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 17:28:01 -!- calamari has joined. 17:29:31 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 17:32:31 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:32:37 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 18:01:32 -!- david_werecat has joined. 18:03:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:04:38 -!- david_werecat has left. 18:06:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:13:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:13:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:13:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:15:42 -!- augur has joined. 18:23:03 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:36:52 fizzie, or other finns, can i annoy you? 18:38:23 oklopol! 18:38:33 ?????? 18:38:39 lemme get some judgements from you! 18:38:46 but i suck at finnish :( 18:38:53 thats why i want it from you 18:39:16 you descriptionists make me sick 18:43:38 lol 18:45:27 oklopol: punaisen ostin auto == good, right? 18:45:47 well no 18:45:52 auton** 18:45:54 sorry 18:46:04 then it's weird but correct. 18:46:26 ok, i only want to know if its weird or not weird or just shit 18:46:29 ok hows this 18:46:30 can't think of a context where it isn't weird really 18:46:53 ostin sen punaisen auto 18:47:10 (put the sen wherever it might need to go) 18:47:10 that's completely wrong 18:47:19 in what way 18:47:30 in the way that you dropped the n again 18:47:36 ok :P 18:47:41 how about 18:47:49 punaisen ostin sen auton 18:48:19 well it can't really mean i bought the red car 18:48:25 ok thank you 18:49:02 (if it's "punaisena", then it's something specific and okay, but i guess that's not part of the game) 18:50:33 whats punaisena?? 18:50:51 the essive case 18:50:57 essive? 18:51:01 so it means i bought the red version of the car 18:51:06 yeah it's this thing we have 18:51:09 ok 18:51:12 means like, "as red" 18:53:09 punaisena ostin auton 18:53:42 i would interpret that "while i was being red, i bought a car". i think. 18:54:00 aha ok 18:54:40 ostin punaisen sen auton // ostin sen auton punaisen 18:54:53 ostin sen punaisen auton is idiomatic 18:55:00 idiomatic? 18:55:02 -!- Sams69 has joined. 18:55:13 -!- Sams69 has left. 18:55:16 the latter is somewhat silly and poetic, ut makes sense, the first one makes no sense 18:55:17 Hm... Finnish is really an amazingly complex language. 18:55:34 oklopol: ok 18:55:35 how about 18:55:41 "idiomatic?"? 18:55:47 what do you mean by idiomatic 18:55:54 ostin punaisena sen auton // ostin sen auton punaisena 18:55:55 that's what you'd actually say 18:56:04 oklopol: oh, so you mean colloquiual 18:56:11 `words --finnish 50 18:56:16 uhoavioikselta sijailemä liukulaveamme totultani tyyppyä hiensistänne säveltaattomamme kahlitsetullume läisemmassa nahkeistavillä ikistisemme suoriipa funkeimpieni tarkoissanne piisinteilta sollasiallan punoitavasta merkimilleen määnansa poikastuma suudeksensa harmimpiansa kömpeämme ahjomamme vieraa 18:56:17 idiomatic means non-literal, like "kick the bucket" = "die" 18:56:24 well colluquial then 18:56:25 oh. 18:56:34 oklopol: so how about those two with punaisena now 18:56:45 both are okay 18:56:50 ok thank you 18:57:04 latter perhaps slightly better 18:57:39 *but 18:57:47 my b key isn't working properly :( 18:58:05 ok thank you oklopol :) 18:58:24 we've discovered that essive case marking is a small-clause secondary predicate head! 18:59:20 what are you basing that on? 19:00:03 not that i have much more than a guess at what that means 19:00:26 oklopol: the cases where "red" is clearly modifying the verb seem to prohibit extraction of the adjective, but when it's essive, it's allowed, and since the meaning of essive is something like "as", it's reasonable to think that it's a secondary predicate outside of the NP "sen auton" 19:00:48 oh i should ask real quick 19:00:52 ostin sen punaisena auton 19:00:53 okay that was what i thought you based it on, so perhaps i do understand what you mean 19:01:06 sorry, sen and auto are close friends. 19:01:10 ok good 19:01:15 unless there's an adjective there ofc 19:01:17 so that suggests that punaisena is not modifying the NP 19:01:20 in-etween 19:01:26 *between 19:01:27 ah 19:01:37 np = noun ...? 19:01:51 phrase 19:01:54 right 19:02:24 so "sen ... auto" means some specific car, and you can stick modifiers in-between. 19:02:37 but punaisena is not a modifier, but kind of its own little subsentence 19:02:37 ? 19:02:46 sort of, yeah 19:02:51 we have these in english too 19:03:13 they describe a state of some argument of a predicate _during_ the time the predicate holds 19:03:26 e.g. "I bought the car new" means when i bought the car, the car was new 19:03:38 or "I bought the car nude" means when i bought the car, I was nude 19:04:49 well right, i would say new and nude are in essive there 19:06:02 in fact when i was 10 or something, when i saw english nouns out of context, i would often picture them being in the essive case, because it was funny. 19:07:09 nude, i bought the car 19:07:34 that seems correct to me 19:07:41 "new, i bought the car" seems completely wrong 19:08:18 presumably because cars are new and people are nude 19:08:32 yeah its bad in english too 19:08:41 but at the end both are fine for me 19:09:05 well i would be a bit surprised if someone actually said "nude, i bought the car" 19:09:17 in finnish? 19:09:22 -!- nortti has joined. 19:09:23 in english :D 19:09:28 oh, no its fine in english 19:09:40 it has some specific information packaging, but its fine 19:10:48 it seems like such a surprising piece of information that i think it would be formulated differently in most contexts 19:10:56 hmm 19:11:02 okay i see the story now 19:11:31 sorry if this question is stupid butis it possible to convert any DFA with true and false end states to regular expression 19:11:45 what are true and false states? 19:11:59 en states 19:12:10 with pretty much any definition of language acceptance with DFA, they will give the same class of languages 19:12:11 *end 19:12:13 the regular languages 19:12:34 which are exactly what regular expressions with union, concatenation and star give you 19:14:02 anyhow afaik, the conversion is not really feasible in practise, i believe it's at most exponential blowup, and this can be reached 19:16:04 in case you care about that sort of thing 19:17:05 i have this one theorem where you get like double factorial + some exponentials for state blow-up, and if anything i'm proud of its utter uselessness. 19:17:31 still proves the classes equal 19:19:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:20:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z. I do not like them in a tree. I do not like them in the fog, I do not like them on a log. I do not like rot' maze, you see, I prefer my lab'rinth's normalcy. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:21:01 (that space looked out of place) 19:21:19 is the first one a zzo quote? 19:21:25 yes 19:21:49 he's the best 19:21:50 seriously 19:21:57 why can't i be as best 19:22:53 i declare today's logs Too Damn Long To Read. 19:23:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 19:23:11 I am trying to convert following DFA to regular expression: there are five states named A,B,C,true and false. Execution starts at state A. If input is 1 it goes throught the states in the order A,B,C,A,B,C... one state change per 1 and if input is 0 it is otherwise the same, but order is A,C,B,A,C,B... instead. When input is 2 and DFA is in state A it goes to state True, but if it is in state B or C it goes to state False. I haven't 19:23:32 wait you are *actually converting something to something*? 19:23:39 yes 19:23:41 that's not really my territory 19:23:46 i'm more into saying it's obvious how to do it 19:24:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:25:09 nortti, for me the conversion is usually quite simple if I draw up the graph of the state machine in question. Can't really help you when you express it in text like that though. 19:25:35 I can work it out with just states A,B,true and false where it is ([01][01])* 19:25:36 nortti: can you draw the graph? you left out some info which i don't feel like fishing out of you 19:25:56 hm the other window also died. something tells me this isn't sustainable. 19:26:25 oklopol: I am currently on my cellphone 19:26:31 oerjan, is it just freenode or does it affect other irc networks as well? 19:26:57 Vorpal: it has nothing to do with freenode, it's my connection to the nvg linux server 19:27:02 hm okay 19:27:09 oerjan, so is nvg <-> freenode okay? 19:27:09 if i get cut off again i'll try webchat 19:27:29 oerjan, I assume not since you quit? (Or don't you use screen or such?) 19:27:30 Vorpal: i don't know 19:27:42 Vorpal: i don't use screen 19:27:53 well doing that would certainly help debugging this :P 19:29:13 nortti: on a second glance, i suppose you gave all the necessary info 19:29:14 maybe i should use screen so you won't know about it. more peaceful that way. 19:29:27 lemme see if i get i 19:29:27 t 19:29:34 oh come on, I was just trying to help 19:29:56 Vorpal: it's more psychological than technical at this point 19:30:03 heh 19:31:17 nortti: when you go to state true or false, you can't continue anymore? 19:31:30 yes 19:31:33 so all words are among (0 + 1)^*2 19:31:44 yes 19:32:07 and the thing before 2 needs to be 0 modulo 3, where 0 is predecessor and 1 is successor 19:32:30 i don't see the regexp directly as i'm too terrified that oerjan sees it before me 19:33:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 19:33:10 :D 19:33:17 okay better 19:35:36 (1X1X1X + 0X0X0X)^* where X = (01 + 10)^*, perhaps 19:35:44 hmm that's too complicated 19:36:20 (1X1X1X)^* + (0X0X0X)^* 19:36:42 not entirely sure but the idea is that you can remove any 01 and 10, they won't change the outcome 19:36:56 I tried that but it didn't work with 1100111 19:37:08 then you have a unary word and you just check if its length is 0 mod 3 19:37:09 hmm 19:37:16 yes it does 19:37:22 that's 1X11 19:38:05 *110001111 19:38:18 right 19:38:36 quite the noodle scratcher 19:38:45 unless you just solve the language equation directly 19:38:53 but this should really be solvable directly 19:40:53 you could solve it and see if you get an idea ofc 19:41:02 i don't really feel like doing that in my head right now 19:42:10 do you know how? 19:42:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:42:17 naughtygirlfinder.com amuses me (don't click [View Profile] links unless you want to give that insipidly stupid site money though) 19:43:00 Basically: Searching for someone when you haven't searched for someone in the last 60 days (tracked by cookie) ALWAYS says that they're a member with pictures 19:43:14 i guess i should now find out if it affects other than my nvg connection 19:43:22 since we know what the problem actually means, i'd have L_0, L_1 and L_2, where L_i adds i to the current number 19:43:59 And no, there's no actual pictures of anyone on that site. 19:45:28 L_0 = empty + PL_2 + ML_1 for instance, depending on which letter it starts with 19:45:47 oklopol: did you get a ping from me? 19:45:57 i did not. 19:46:22 fucking crap, i cannot even ping to check if i'm still connected? 19:46:36 !ping 19:46:39 @ping 19:46:40 pong 19:46:42 Pong! 19:46:52 hm i guess... 19:47:23 ok i guess i can @ping lambdabot in private 19:47:29 `? EgoBot 19:47:32 EgoBot is my arch-nemesis. 19:50:09 of course it might be that webchat won't disconnect but only because it is more resilient against bad connections... 19:50:20 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:55:56 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 19:57:48 * oerjan is freaking out because he cannot think of any passive way of distinguishing losing connection from y'all not talking 19:59:04 doesn't your irc program tell you if you disconnect from the server? 19:59:17 -!- MoALTz has joined. 19:59:33 the one time previously webchat disconnected, i only found out when i tried to say something 20:10:43 oerjan: Try PING ME and if it is lost connection you won't get a response 20:11:14 zzo38: well the point was to find a way to check without disturbing others 20:11:31 oerjan_: No, send PING ME to the server 20:12:01 It is what I sometimes do to check that. 20:12:09 i don't know how to do that in webchat 20:12:25 Then use a client in which you do know how to do that 20:12:47 also, the _other_ point was that it should be _passive_, i.e. i shouldn't need to constantly do something other than looking 20:13:00 for irssi, the time in the status bar works 20:13:40 Have the computer send a PING command automatically, then 20:13:59 yes oerjan, just write a script that constantly pings the serveer. 20:14:03 *server 20:14:13 then write a man page for it so others can enjoy it too 20:14:37 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan__. 20:14:53 zzo38: which computer, is the question. i could do it in irssi probably, but that one is _most_ likely to disconnect and fail... 20:15:04 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan. 20:15:11 -!- oerjan__ has changed nick to oerjan_. 20:15:24 so. 20:16:01 anyway my connection has been disturbingly stable since i joined both clients. 20:18:23 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:18:52 -!- Zuu has joined. 20:20:29 What has science come to? 20:20:58 : 20:21:04 Science is far from perfect, but it is the best we have. 20:21:30 well, soon we should have a picture of a black hole 20:22:57 If it is black, how can you have a picture? What you can do is to calculate how it interferes with surrounding things and then see if the observations match 20:22:59 we've found planets outside the solar system, used muons to scan the vesuvius crater... 20:23:05 right 20:24:45 we have a pretty usable cyberspace, apart from the neural connections part 20:25:17 ftl is as stuck as ever 20:39:30 coroutines look pretty interesting 20:51:57 -!- Case1 has joined. 20:56:27 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 20:59:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:10:29 -!- Sato0x has joined. 21:10:31 hi 21:10:42 `welcome Sato0x 21:10:45 Sato0x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 21:11:20 How're you? 21:18:09 ? 21:24:34 I found an article titled "How to Reject Any Scientific Manuscript" 21:24:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:27:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:31:30 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:31:43 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:32:12 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:13:54 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 22:22:43 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 22:41:24 -!- Sato0x has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:48:28 -!- Sato0x has joined. 22:48:31 hi 22:48:42 How do I publish an esolang? 22:49:03 Sato0x: Create a page on the wiki 22:49:09 ook 22:49:35 That is all you need to do. But all information posted directly on the wiki must be public domain 22:49:48 huh? 22:50:04 actually 22:50:07 is mine esoteric? 22:50:24 How would I know? 22:50:28 typing 22:50:37 mine's kind of like brainfuck 22:51:09 as in it uses < to move left and > to move right, -/+ as (in/de)crementers 23:08:40 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:09:52 > 23:09:55 ? 23:12:05 isn't a brickbraining customary at this juncture? 23:12:30 huh 23:13:24 i'm sure Phantom_Hoover will handle that when he returns 23:13:43 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:14:28 huh 23:16:24 Sato0x: Phantom_Hoover does _not_ like brainfuck derivatives. 23:16:57 'tis not a brainfuck deriviative 23:17:02 good, good 23:17:08 It just happens to use those 23:17:46 them seeming most proper to me: > right arrow < left arrow 23:17:50 + addition 23:17:53 - subtraction 23:18:22 so what is different from brainfuck 23:18:29 it's gridding 23:20:27 define dimensions at the beginning with x,y: 23:20:39 ^ up v down > right < left 23:21:02 _ reflect over x 23:21:04 | reflect over y 23:21:14 % reflect over origin 23:21:45 . output the certain element 23:21:54 # output the grid 23:25:36 bbl 23:25:44 -!- Sato0x has quit (Quit: Page closed). 23:29:10 -!- monqy has joined. 23:35:09 -!- augur has joined. 23:43:31 oerjan: which black hole? 23:46:38 either the one in the center of our galaxy, or a much larger one in a galaxy in our local supercluster which i don't remember the name of 23:46:52 depends on which research group get first 23:50:01 M87, it was 23:50:18 http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/07/were_going_to_see_a_black_hole.php 23:50:45 is it the galaxy with jedis? 23:51:01 hard to say 23:51:10 yay 23:53:40 oerjan: ah. well the one at the center of the milky way is going to light up pretty soon 23:54:41 talking about jedi..it was pleasent to hear they named the first planet with two suns they found tatooine 23:56:04 the home planet of luke skywalker as you know for sure 23:56:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Imakuni? is absent today). 23:56:39 afk 23:58:26 augur: the other one is already lit up :)