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00:52:22 <elliott> "Jason Voorhees is back not for killing purposes but here to kill problems." --Stack Overflow profile
00:52:28 <elliott> Isn't that... killing purposes?
00:54:11 <qfr> Well observed
00:54:34 * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
01:09:24 <qfr> Masha'allaah
01:12:38 <elliott> monqy: That didn't count as a hi, it was required.
01:12:44 <kmc> i'm here to kick ass and answer questions about haskell and i'm all out of questions about haskell
01:12:54 <pikhq> There might technically be 20 year old OS X binaries.
01:13:00 <monqy> elliott: understandable
01:13:04 <monqy> elliott: i would have done the same thing
01:13:07 <pikhq> NeXT. It ran on x86.
01:13:54 <elliott> pikhq: i tried to run WorldWideWeb on OS X once
01:14:28 <pikhq> Does it build, at least?
01:14:58 <elliott> i just used a preexisting binary :p
01:15:12 <pikhq> If so, then it is probably a matter of endianness; wouldn't be too surprised if WorldWideWeb was only built for m68k.
01:15:59 <pikhq> Actually, almost certainly only for m68k.
01:16:49 <pikhq> NeXT on x86 only came later.
01:17:02 <elliott> this was when Rosetta worked
01:17:06 <elliott> did NeXTStep ever run on PPC?
01:17:29 <pikhq> m68k, x86, SPARC, and PA-RISC.
01:17:49 <kmc> ppppppppowerpc
01:18:07 <pikhq> I think in theory you could create an m68k, x86, SPARC, PA-RISC, PPC fat binary.
01:18:30 <pikhq> (as Mach-O is from NeXT and yes, they did support fat binaries then)
01:20:03 <elliott> you can have an x86 + x86-64 fat binary iirc
01:20:13 <elliott> since the early intel macs were 32-bit, believe it or not
01:20:42 <pikhq> Even more fattitude!
01:20:45 <kmc> can you do a ppc-le / ppc-be fat binary
01:21:13 <kmc> i tried to use Linux prctl(PR_SET_ENDIAN) on my toilet seat iBook but it didn't work :/
01:22:14 <pikhq> You could, but I'm pretty sure only one half would be used. The Mac hardware wasn't bi-endian.
01:22:21 <ais523> `addquote * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
01:22:24 <ais523> only funny out of context
01:22:25 <HackEgo> 840) * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
01:22:35 <HackEgo> 738) <Phantom_Hoover> The only way you could do better would be to implement Monopoly with chocolate.
01:22:47 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
01:22:51 <HackEgo> 780) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
01:22:53 <HackEgo> 592) <Patashu> dangit I need someone who knows the answers to my problems instantly and is always around for me! <Patashu> I need.....an adult ;_;
01:22:56 <HackEgo> 726) <elliott> right: you didn't find out you were wrong, just right in a way we failed to consider. <elliott> if only every wrong person could be so lucky
01:23:51 <elliott> haha, i was about to say that 592 amuses me, and 726 is probably the weakest
01:24:03 <pikhq> (to support multiple endiannesses on a PPC, you either need a motherboard that can do byte swaps on the bus *or* crazy hardware hacks)
01:24:26 <elliott> hmm, I think all those quotes are good
01:24:31 <pikhq> s/hardware/software/
01:24:31 <ais523> OK, let's keep them all
01:24:38 <HackEgo> 435) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
01:24:45 <HackEgo> 719) <monqy> i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one"
01:25:06 <HackEgo> 313) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
01:25:14 <HackEgo> 621) <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
01:25:26 <elliott> SO MUCH FOR THE PERFECT 5-PERSON ROLL
01:25:27 <HackEgo> 748) <oklopol> in one case, someone is hurting themselves, in the other, they are only hurting (all) norwegians (to death)
01:25:43 <elliott> I don't think 621 is funny
01:26:03 <ais523> I don't think 621 is massively funny either; it can be out of context, I guess
01:26:12 <elliott> well, it was pretty much the height of "how simple can a concept be before monqy will not claim to not understand it"
01:26:21 <HackEgo> *poof* <ais523> it's definitely not a statistical fluctuation, they repeated the experiment 15 thousand times to make sure
01:26:35 <ais523> elliott: in that case 719 needs a lot more context
01:27:27 <elliott> but I already know the context! :p
01:27:37 <HackEgo> 61) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
01:27:41 <HackEgo> 296) <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, I started my explorations again after getting bored of the Himalayas.
01:27:50 <HackEgo> 788) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people
01:27:51 <HackEgo> 576) <oerjan> theorem prover yada yada halting problem.
01:27:52 <HackEgo> 76) <@Lawlabee> Why does Monday start at 10PM on Sunday?
01:28:02 <HackEgo> *poof* <@Lawlabee> Why does Monday start at 10PM on Sunday?
01:36:08 <ais523> elliott: 313 is great because it's self-fulfilling
01:36:32 <elliott> haha, indeed (but I think it's great even independent of that)
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01:37:33 <HackEgo> 313) <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
01:38:01 <HackEgo> 312) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
01:41:56 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you read the logs?
01:42:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Guess what arrived today!!!!!!
01:42:17 <ais523> shachaf: I choose to misinterpret "read" in that line in the sense of divination
01:42:20 <ais523> because it's much better that way
01:42:40 <shachaf> That's a much better interpretation of "logreading".
01:43:09 <monqy> I'm logreading right now, in fact
01:43:13 <monqy> 22:33:40: <Sgeo> `hatesgep
01:43:15 <monqy> I'm at about that part
01:43:59 <shachaf> 18:43 < monqy> I'm at about that part
01:44:32 <ais523> even if a woodchuck /could/ chuck wood, it would likely have no motivation to, and thus still would chuck no wood
01:44:57 <shachaf> ais523;beliveven in hte woodomchuk!! :'(
01:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: you aren't monqy
01:45:25 <elliott> he just plays monqy in bad b-movies
01:45:29 <elliott> the bad b-movie known as #esoteric
01:45:55 <shachaf> elliott: What does "British" mean?
01:46:25 <shachaf> "citizen of the UK"? "lives in Great Britain"? "lives in the British isles"?
01:47:16 <monqy> "a blast from the past"
01:47:27 <elliott> shachaf: Citizen of the UK, usually.
01:47:33 <elliott> Perhaps "lives in the British Isles" if not that.
01:47:40 <shachaf> So people in Northern Ireland are British?
01:47:49 <elliott> shachaf: Well, as I was about to say, it's a bit of a self-identity thing.
01:47:55 <shachaf> What about Southern Ireland?!
01:48:03 <elliott> Probably many people in Northern Ireland would consider themselves British.
01:48:20 <kmc> legally there are many categories, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen
01:48:31 <monqy> oh so hatesgeo is a mass pinging machine
01:48:43 <monqy> kallisti what were you thinking
01:49:06 <monqy> it's from november! I think
01:49:19 <monqy> it's the one where I don't onderstand the "one"
01:49:26 <elliott> I don't onderstand the "one" either
01:50:33 <shachaf> kmc: Who said anything about the Commonwealth?
01:50:46 <kmc> but also there is a list in that article
01:50:52 <kmc> of different flavors of British Citizen
01:50:58 <shachaf> I don't think people in Canada consider themselves particularly British.
01:51:17 <elliott> shachaf: I think a good rule of thumb is just to not call anyone "British" unless they call themselves British.
01:51:28 <elliott> Which probably means not calling anyone "British" because we never talk to foreigners.
01:51:37 <kmc> <shachaf> self-identifying considered harmful
01:52:26 <monqy> !monqy what does this thing do
01:52:40 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19466.hs:1:52: \ Couldn't match expected type `[Char]' with actual type `IO String' \ In the second argument of `mapM_', namely `getContents' \ In the expression: mapM_ (putChar . toLower) getContents \ In an equation for `main': \ main = mapM_ (putChar . toLower) getContents
01:53:01 <elliott> kmc: Is this the game where you put <shachaf> before something silly and he disagrees with it?
01:53:06 <elliott> By "disagree", I mean "agree".
01:53:25 <kmc> shachaf said something like that
01:53:35 <kmc> i did not look it up in logs so i might have got minor wording wrong
01:53:41 <monqy> <shachaf> hi monqy
01:53:49 <shachaf> You got the capitalization and punctuation different.
01:53:58 <shachaf> Not that I care about capitalization and punctuation.
01:54:06 <kmc> as noted, you think capitalization is silly
01:54:17 <elliott> kmc: Well, quoting shachaf is the same as putting <shachaf> before something silly.
01:55:09 <shachaf> I think the existence of capital letters is silly.
01:55:54 <monqy> <shachaf> I think the existence of capital letters is silly.
01:59:24 <monqy> this is a great prize
02:00:02 <kmc> http://invisible-island.net/vttest/vttest.html is a fun program
02:00:15 <kmc> did you know that vt220 and thus xterm support double-width double-height text?
02:01:05 <shachaf> Do we get banned in here for fullwidth text? :-(
02:01:17 <elliott> "I realized that xterm had features (other than the obvious case of function keys) that were not found in a VT100." doesn't this guy maintain xterm
02:01:46 <ais523> maybe he/she realised that some time before he started maintained it
02:01:52 <ais523> or maybe just wrote it by accident
02:04:03 <shachaf> ａｉｓ５２３： Ａｒｅ ｙｏｕ ｇｏｉｎｇ ｔｏ ｂａｎ ｍｅ ｎｏｗ？ ：−（
02:04:20 <elliott> That doesn't render here. :(
02:04:25 <elliott> I should get an AUR package manager.
02:04:29 <elliott> I don't know of any good AUR package managers.
02:04:32 <shachaf> pikhq: So my book arrived.
02:04:37 <shachaf> How do I go about reading it now?
02:06:26 <pikhq> shachaf: First, look things up obsessively. Second, for the love of all that is sane, use an SRS (spaced repetition system)
02:06:47 <elliott> What book did shachaf buy?
02:07:06 <pikhq> shachaf: Makes it much easier to remember things.
02:07:09 <shachaf> elliott: _How to Keep Secrets from Elliott_
02:07:38 <shachaf> pikhq: But I never like how those work.
02:08:08 * elliott wonders why he bothers asking shachaf questions.
02:08:16 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, you were asking me?
02:08:23 <shachaf> elliott: It's some sort of Manga thing in Japanese.
02:10:48 <elliott> I wonder how much dust that RTK book has collected while I've been too busy with other things to go through it.
02:11:08 <shachaf> elliott: Should I get that book?
02:11:43 <elliott> Remembering the Kanji? I think so. pikhq recommends it and I like the sample I read on the web.
02:11:53 <elliott> Also it's what the spaced repetition systems have data sets for.
02:11:56 <shachaf> pikhq: Should I read that book?
02:11:59 <pikhq> shachaf: It's one of precisely two ways of going through kanji that aren't designed by obvious morons, so yes.
02:12:07 <shachaf> pikhq: What's the other way?
02:12:17 <elliott> I think my version is a paperback. I should buy a hardback instead.
02:12:17 <shachaf> elliott: Also, do you remember the kana already?
02:12:20 <elliott> It's way too big for a paperback.
02:12:25 <pikhq> It's either that or http://kanjidamage.com/ , which is free.
02:12:29 <elliott> shachaf: I bought the book before actually doing anything.
02:12:42 <elliott> "Welcome to KANJIDAMAGE, where you can learn 1,700 kanji using Yo Mama jokes."
02:12:47 <elliott> pikhq: Are you sure this wasn't designed by an obvious moron?
02:12:51 <pikhq> Pick whichever one has the approach you don't hate.
02:12:55 <elliott> I have one data point in favour of the idea that it was designed by an obvious moron.
02:13:15 <elliott> "math stylezzz." Two data points.
02:13:33 <elliott> http://kanjidamage.com/assets/visualaids/kick%20in%20the%20nuts-5fc801a01bdbdedd67b2a17dc6ff1767.jpg Three.
02:13:51 <pikhq> elliott: Everything other than RTK and that strongly suggest you learn kanji that are comically archaic.
02:14:03 <shachaf> pikhq: Apparently it costs hundreds of dollars or something.
02:14:18 <pikhq> shachaf: The recent edition should cost like 20.
02:14:38 <elliott> shachaf: I bought it for something like 20 pounds.
02:14:40 <shachaf> "10 new from $178.54 23 used from $56.92"
02:14:49 <elliott> That'll be someone selling the old edition.
02:14:56 <elliott> http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Volume-Complete-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334628892&sr=8-1
02:14:56 <pikhq> shachaf: Is that the 1st edition? From, like, the 70s?
02:14:56 <shachaf> "4 new from $99.99 20 used from $21.50"
02:14:57 <elliott> http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Volume-Complete-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334628892&sr=8-1
02:15:12 <elliott> First result for "remembering the kanji" on amazon.com.
02:15:13 <pikhq> Most things teaching kanji are roughly analogous to teaching English using Shakespeare and Chaucer.
02:15:30 <elliott> (Why do people print paperback books?)
02:16:05 <elliott> There's not even a hardback result for RTK. :(
02:16:13 <pikhq> So someone *not* having you learn motherfucking 匁 ("monme", a pre-Meiji unit of weight) gets quite a bit of points.
02:16:13 <shachaf> I guess I should learn the katakana first.
02:16:24 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> (Why do people print paperback books?) // Why do people print books?
02:16:44 <elliott> "A sixth edition was released in April 2011."
02:16:49 <shachaf> monqy: a books is something read by an elliotts
02:16:52 <elliott> Oh, I have an *excuse* to buy a new edition.
02:17:04 <elliott> shachaf: IIRC pikhq told me that kana can wait until after kanji, but I don't raecll that for sure.
02:17:39 <monqy> shachaf: i forget if elliotts is my puppet or im elliotts' puppet
02:17:41 <shachaf> But they're so much simpler.
02:17:42 <pikhq> Learning kana before kanji makes it so you could kinda jump into Japanese before kanji, but trust me when I say you're going to be basically useless without kanji.
02:17:52 <ais523> pikhq: it depends on what you're using Japanese for
02:18:01 <shachaf> pikhq: What if I just want to learn spoken Japanese?
02:18:06 <ais523> several people learn it to play Japanese computer games, in which case kana are more useful
02:18:17 <elliott> shachaf: Does that manga have speakers?
02:18:23 <pikhq> ais523: Unless they're playing NES games, not really.
02:18:24 <monqy> japanese computer games?
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02:18:59 <ais523> pikhq: disagreed, especially on portables, whose screens can't really show kanji large enough to make them out
02:19:01 <pikhq> shachaf: Then you don't need kana either, if you want to be illiterate.
02:19:45 <elliott> "Remember mnemonics from school? "Every Good Boy Gets Fudge," or "My Dear Aunt Sally," or even that notorious pedophile, one Mr. "Roy G. Biv"?"
02:19:48 <lambdabot> [x,safe x,safe (safe x),safe (safe (safe x)),safe (safe (safe (safe x))),sa...
02:19:50 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq: I'm quite literate and don't know a single kana symbol.
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02:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: I really think this site was written by a complete moron.
02:20:11 <pikhq> ais523: Even *Pokemon* uses kanji anymore. (admittedly, this is only the most recent games; before that it was katakana exclusively)
02:20:24 <coppro> pikhq: statement does not make sense
02:20:29 <ais523> it has both kana and kanji in it and asks which you want
02:20:41 <pikhq> Thought it was an option on Black & White that they asked you about right away?
02:20:50 <coppro> pikhq: "Even Pokemon uses kanji anymore"
02:21:00 <ais523> coppro: s/anymore/nowadays/
02:21:01 <elliott> even I understood what pikhq meant anymore
02:21:07 <ais523> pikhq: yes, ask immediately
02:21:20 <pikhq> coppro: Stuff targeted towards little children won't use kanji (much), generally.
02:21:39 <shachaf> monqy: are you tlieltlttle children
02:21:48 <monqy> shachaf: whost that
02:22:15 <shachaf> pikhq: So should I order _Remembering the Kanji_?
02:22:17 <shachaf> ais523: So should I order _Remembering the Kanji_?
02:22:21 <shachaf> Whichever one of you it was.
02:22:28 <ais523> shachaf: me is probably a bad person to ask
02:22:39 <ais523> also, you should always italicise with literal tab, no matter what the context
02:22:43 <ais523> actually, better make it eight spaces to make sure
02:22:48 <shachaf> elliott: I'm not italicizing.
02:22:51 <pikhq> shachaf: I'd suggest looking at the sample first: http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RK1/RK%201%20%286th%20edition%29%20sample.pdf
02:23:05 * elliott picks up that sample to see HOW MUCH BETTER the sixth edition is.
02:23:09 <elliott> shachaf: Stop citing with _, then.
02:23:21 <monqy> italics rule #1: who needs italics when youc an marquee
02:23:26 <shachaf> elliott: That's how titles work.
02:23:31 <pikhq> elliott: I think it's just changed for the recent jōyō kanji list change.
02:23:40 <monqy> shachaf: underline with the underline thing
02:23:49 <shachaf> monqy: I'm not underlining!
02:23:55 <shachaf> Why would I underline or italicize a book title?
02:24:15 <monqy> "Quotes look like this"
02:25:56 <monqy> shachaf: are you going to remember the kanji
02:27:19 <elliott> how can you remember the kanji befoery ou know them
02:27:23 <elliott> chec kmate japanese teachers
02:28:14 <shachaf> pikhq: That sample has so much word in it. :-(
02:28:28 <shachaf> how do i ealrna without redanagIii?????
02:28:51 <pikhq> One of these days I need to edit the joyo list to omit things that are literally useless.
02:29:15 <elliott> shachaf: Most of that text is in the intro, I think.
02:29:23 <pikhq> (the joyo list is a list of kanji that are taught in Japanese public schools. This list is only loosely correlated with what's in actual use.)
02:30:33 <pikhq> Yeah, that sucker's pretty frequent... Something like a quarter of all surnames feature it. :P
02:31:19 <ais523> elliott: like a square with both orthogonals marked, except that the vertical sides continue slightly past the baseline
02:31:36 <pikhq> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:%E7%94%B0-jorder.gif
02:31:40 <elliott> kmc: I like how the mosh site recommends a different AUR packager to the one it did a few days ago.
02:32:18 <kmc> it recommends yaourt now
02:32:22 <elliott> "This image is part of the Commons:Stroke Order Project(zh-de-ja), a project to create a complete set of images depicting the right stroke order" I like how this "project" has produced exactly 9 images since 2008.
02:32:23 <kmc> i thought our instructions before were just wrong
02:32:34 <elliott> Oh, wait, more: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Stroke_Order_Project
02:32:47 <elliott> kmc: Well, both packer and yaourt are popular unofficial AUR packagers.
02:32:58 <elliott> it would probably be best simply to link to the AUR page.
02:33:11 <kmc> i thought packer was just a typo for pacman, which was in turn wrong
02:33:39 <elliott> I think packer is more "hip" than yaourt.
02:33:45 <kmc> well, we're all about hip !!
02:33:46 <elliott> yaourt is sort of breaky, I think.
02:33:53 <kmc> that's why we're using Twitter Bootstrap
02:34:04 <kmc> finally those Hacker News startup geniuses have educated the poor academics on a little style
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02:34:15 <elliott> Oh, or is it pacaur that's popular now?
02:42:13 <shachaf> pikhq: Should I be caring about how to write kanji?
02:42:23 <elliott> That's what RTK1 covers, I think.
02:42:34 <pikhq> shachaf: It's generally a good idea, and honestly not that hard.
02:42:58 <pikhq> And with RTK it will kinda come naturally.
02:43:24 <pikhq> It goes over readings in a fairly sucky way.
02:43:36 <shachaf> pikhq: But I don't care about it at all. :-(
02:43:45 <shachaf> And I don't want to write.
02:43:57 <shachaf> Writing is a terrible thing.
02:44:07 <elliott> shachaf: I thought the same and remember last time pikhq convinced me it would still be the easiest way to learn.
02:44:11 <shachaf> Not having to write characters by hand is the reason I invented computers.
02:44:15 <elliott> So you should probably just copy my being-convinced.
02:44:16 <pikhq> It's also pretty trivial to be competent.
02:44:45 * elliott wonders why shachaf bought a book some year(s) before he would be able to read it.
02:45:09 <pikhq> elliott: Death Note is not impossibly difficult.
02:45:23 * shachaf wonders why elliott bought RTK and then let it dust up the gathers.
02:45:25 <elliott> Hey, I parenthesised the (s)!
02:45:31 <elliott> shachaf: I'm bad at scheduling.
02:45:52 <pikhq> That said, if you go through a traditional Japanese course, it'll be a good decade before you have a hope of reading it.
02:47:00 <elliott> pikhq: Is RTK even available in hardback?
02:47:05 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think so.
02:47:20 <pikhq> Another reason I need to do my own book binding and typesetting. :P
02:48:41 <elliott> Why do they print paperback?
02:49:18 <shachaf> pikhq: Are you in the Japan?
02:50:09 <shachaf> pikhq: Are you in Indiana?
02:53:44 <pikhq> I am Colorado Springs.
02:54:34 <coppro> I thought it was in Massachussets
02:54:43 <shachaf> I wish I was in Indiana. :-(
02:55:14 <monqy> I wish shachaf could follow his dreams
02:55:59 <elliott> coppro: It's all part of New York.
02:56:12 <elliott> <shachaf> monqy: Are you in diana
02:56:24 <shachaf> I'm talking about the state.
02:57:33 <shachaf> Second, repeated instruction to study the characters with pad and pencil
02:57:33 <shachaf> should be taken seriously. Remembering the characters demands that they be
02:57:33 <shachaf> written, and there is really no better way to improve the aesthetic appearance
02:57:33 <shachaf> of one’s writing and acquire a “natural feel” for the flow of the kanji than by
02:58:10 <elliott> shachaf: He's a professor, you know!
02:58:33 <monqy> kanji is kind of like a philosophy
02:58:53 <kmc> shachaf professes
02:59:11 <shachaf> dbelange: You do not understand how monqy works.
03:00:16 <monqy> you must experience it for yourself
03:00:20 <elliott> dbelange: No. "help" is banned.
03:00:23 <elliott> You have to pass a test to use "help".
03:00:30 <monqy> only then may you be enlightened
03:01:06 <shachaf> elliott: Remember the part Spellbreaker with the cubes?
03:01:18 <elliott> I never played Spellbreaker.
03:01:29 <shachaf> I thought you played Spellbreaker.
03:03:14 <monqy> iis spellbreaker good
03:06:30 <monqy> how do you do that
03:07:07 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, since when is this sample 105 pages long?
03:07:08 <monqy> oh no is it bad magic
03:08:25 <shachaf> NOTHING WRONG WITH BLACK MAGIC :'(
03:08:27 <shachaf> begs the basic question of why they could not better
03:08:39 <shachaf> elliott: Can I hate RTK for that?
03:08:42 <shachaf> pikhq: Can I hate RTK for that?
03:08:53 <monqy> shachaf: Can I hate RTK for that?
03:09:17 <shachaf> elliott: 20:08 < shachaf> This only
03:09:17 <shachaf> 20:08 < shachaf> begs the basic question of why they could not better
03:09:57 <monqy> I can't hate RTK for that.
03:09:59 <elliott> If you take the moronic prescriptivist route, you'll end up like this: http://begthequestion.info/
03:10:05 <monqy> but I'm afraid you can't either
03:10:11 <elliott> "While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight."
03:11:11 <elliott> Don't worry, "it would be false to say that tongues are not in cheeks in this endeavour": "We do care passionately about the proper use of the phrase with reference to logical fallacy, but it would be false to say that tongues are not in cheeks in this endeavor."
03:11:16 <shachaf> elliott: prescriptivism 4 ever
03:11:17 <monqy> Print out BTQ cards and get BTQ shirts and other merchandise to spread the word.
03:11:31 <shachaf> We didn't get to where English is today by allowing any old person to change the language any which way!
03:11:33 <kmc> i like the old definition of begging the question, and try to use it when appropriate
03:11:55 <kmc> not quite prepared to be that much of a dick about it though
03:13:10 <pikhq> Shame "begets the question" is out of favor.
03:13:15 <elliott> I will do whatever it takes to kick you if you say "le sigh'.
03:13:25 <elliott> ais523: Do it now or I will leave forever.
03:13:40 -!- pikhq has left ("le kick'd").
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03:13:57 <elliott> ais523: That is not sufficient. Kick pikhq.
03:14:31 <ais523> someone needs to change the topic
03:14:39 <shachaf> pikhq: I'd like to see a logical proof sometime which is structured like Genesis 5.
03:14:40 -!- elliott has set topic: Brand new topic! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:14:43 <elliott> ais523: Done. Now kick pikhq.
03:14:56 <ais523> elliott: I was working on a new one that worse worse than that one
03:15:02 <ais523> *that was worse than that one
03:15:05 <monqy> I can worsen it if you'd like
03:15:08 <ais523> but I don't approve of kicking people on demand
03:15:20 <elliott> ais523: It's not on demand. He said "le sigh" and then he said "le le".
03:15:38 <ais523> elliott: this is not a sufficient reason to kick someone
03:15:41 <shachaf> elliott: what is le problem
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03:16:16 <pikhq> I think he means "le leaving".
03:16:17 <monqy> look what you've done
03:17:07 <shachaf> monqy: He won't respond to my /msg. :-(
03:17:37 <monqy> maybe you shouldn't have done
03:17:39 <shachaf> monqy: I want to mark his SO answer as bestanswerever.
03:18:41 <monqy> a moment of silence to think about what you;ve done
03:21:03 <shachaf> monqy: Can we kick pikhq. :-(
03:21:35 <monqy> I don't have ops, so I can't do the honours
03:29:40 <shachaf> pikhq: Now that elliott is gone, let's talk behind his back!
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04:18:18 <shachaf> pikhq: Have you been kicked yet?
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05:17:13 <Sgeo> http://www.stylist.co.uk/life/recipes/worlds-first-lick-able-lift this is PERFECT for norns
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06:43:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23492
06:44:08 <nortti> `cat `which pastefortunes`
06:44:10 <HackEgo> cat: `which pastefortunes`: No such file or directory
06:45:41 <nortti> `run cat `which pastefortunes`
06:45:44 <HackEgo> echo > tmp.lolo; for i in *; do fortune >> tmp.lolo; echo '---' >> tmp.lolo; done; cat tmp.lolo | paste; rm tmp.lolo
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06:47:31 <HackEgo> 180) <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
06:47:38 <HackEgo> 156) <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
06:47:53 <HackEgo> 452) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
06:47:57 <HackEgo> 229) <Dylan> as long as the first dozen pages don't contain the word "panties" it is probably a good story.
06:48:08 <HackEgo> 531) <itidus20> like i could ask how many "petals" are there on each of the "flowers" on this coffee mug i just made a drink with <itidus20> but that would be NP hard I think
06:48:08 <HackEgo> 172) <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
06:48:08 <HackEgo> 367) <Sgeo> I was more of a pervert in Metaplace than Utherverse <Sgeo> I invented Metaplace sex >.>
06:48:58 <HackEgo> 183) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
06:49:12 <HackEgo> 242) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
06:49:13 <HackEgo> 249) <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright <nddrylliog> locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc <nddrylliog> locks: guilty
06:49:13 <HackEgo> 564) <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to learn Scala instead of Ruby <elliott> I will boil your veins. <Sgeo> Which is less bad? <elliott> Probably Scala, but I don't want you learning languages.
06:49:14 <HackEgo> 271) <fizzie> file:///home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png -- yes, I think it's nice that way when the edge is always the opponent's flag.
06:51:00 <fizzie> My FAILURE is immortalized there. :/ :(
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07:07:56 <shachaf> fizzie: HOW DID YOU GET THAT FILE?
07:08:15 * shachaf issues DMCA takedown notice.
07:11:18 <olsner> sometimes fungot says funny things
07:11:18 <fungot> olsner: people like different songs because they have different senses of humour, chicks would like me less of a man!
07:11:44 <olsner> and sometimes fungot almost makes sense
07:11:44 <fungot> olsner: i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women actually wanting the intercourse with them, dromiceiomimus? no way, dude! do i like it because it's so delicious because i like to keep my own counsel. for what are ghosts, but souls, we find the idea of instincts! we mate! i am, a little!
07:18:06 <shachaf> Does fungot ignore the contents of the sentence that was used to trigger it?
07:18:06 <fungot> shachaf: the future, so yeah? you had a cold night... to remember. if a new ambulance anyway. my point! is everything ready dromiceiomimus?
07:22:49 <kmc> what the fungot
07:22:50 <fungot> kmc: oh, i must have put that in your pipe and smoke it? i would argue that you are in a relationship with a woman he respects, and they don't do anything they might regret before they get married, and have children! the only career she wants to spend a friday as weekend, why not monday too?
07:23:12 <kmc> that almost made sense
07:33:08 <shachaf> "almost make sense" is a design goal of fungot, I think.
07:33:09 <fungot> shachaf: you must have had crazy dreams last night and hey, look, this was their word of the day last week, i will now share this secret.
07:33:20 <fungot> shachaf: more so than usual, t-rex
07:33:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:33:54 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
07:33:55 <fungot> shachaf: there is no way similar to another developer and be finished once and for the record, i've seen too many cocks in his pants too...
07:34:08 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
07:34:13 <fungot> shachaf: they then remark: internet article in the car and one wheel on the gnu project in 1982.
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08:01:57 <pikhq_> He's still on it? That's impressive.
08:02:32 <shachaf> pikhq_: He was just dying to make that joke.
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08:02:51 <elliott> fizzie: You kick pikhq too.
08:02:51 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
08:06:32 <pikhq_> Someone should write an IRC bot to kick elliott next time he joins.
08:07:19 <ais523> OK, could someone help me with something that makes no sense? with the libraries on the OS I'm testing (Ubuntu Oneiric), the symbol COLS is not defined in ncursesw, either the .a or .so version; nor is it defined in a program linked to those; but gcc somehow knows to put it in the BSS rather than giving a link error
08:07:33 <ais523> also, is fizziew a Unicode version of fizzie?
08:09:29 <pikhq_> Next person to use "Unicode" to mean "UTF-16" or worse "UCS-2" gets beat.
08:09:57 <pikhq_> ais523: And no, I have no clue how that could possibly happen, except maybe the weirdest linker script.
08:09:58 <kmc> Unicode Big Indian
08:10:27 <ais523> pikhq_: hmm, I wonder if libncursesw claims to be unicode or just BMP
08:10:33 <kmc> does Java still use UCS-2?
08:10:40 <ais523> kmc: no, it uses UTF-16 nowadays
08:10:49 <ais523> much to the confusion of people who assume it uses UCS-2
08:11:02 <kmc> but it exposes the existence of surrogate pairs to the user?
08:11:04 <fizzie> For some value of "uses", anyway, since the API is not so nice.
08:11:05 <ais523> and its char type thus can't necessarily hold one codepoint, being only 16 bits wide
08:11:42 <pikhq_> And uses invalid UTF-8 internally.
08:13:40 <pikhq_> CESU-8 has got to be the most ridiculous encoding of Unicode in actual use.
08:13:51 <ais523> oh, found the BSS request, it's in /usr/lib/libtinfo.so
08:14:18 <pikhq_> ais523: And the linker script requests that, presumably?
08:14:37 <ais523> possibly, I haven't found the linker script :)
08:14:47 <pikhq_> Should just be /usr/lib/libncursesw.so
08:15:11 <ais523> INPUT(libncursesw.so.5 -ltinfo)
08:15:34 <ais523> I'm going to end up having to get aimake to parse linker scripts at this rate :)
08:15:40 <pikhq_> Gotta love asshatish stuff like that.
08:15:54 <kmc> i should learn how to do more crazy shit with linker scripts
08:16:16 <shachaf> I should know more about how linkers work.
08:16:19 <ais523> I just found it using the simple expedient of running nm on the whole of /usr/lib
08:16:21 <pikhq_> All that pain to do what pkg-config should do.
08:16:24 <shachaf> Except sometimes I feel like I should know less about how linkers work.
08:16:33 <kmc> shachaf: http://www.iecc.com/linker/ is nice
08:17:00 <kmc> ksplice is powered by linker magic, which I think is unusual for a commercial product
08:17:16 <kmc> more products are powered by compiler magic or other sorts of magic
08:17:30 <pikhq_> Or, most commonly, cargo cult rituals.
08:18:03 <kmc> ksplice is at heart a very specialized linker and a very specialized kernel-mode dynamic loader (and to some degree, un-linker)
08:19:06 <kmc> the actual business of making old function jump to new is pretty simple and boring in comparison
08:20:01 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
08:20:58 <kmc> "un-linker" meaning it looks at the contents of memory and figures out what the static linker and dynamic loader did to get it that way
08:22:12 <pikhq_> So, basically trying to figure out what was originally symbol references.
08:22:36 <pikhq_> Which of course you need to do so that you can then re-link them.
08:23:34 <kmc> this is how ksplice can find static functions in order to patch them, or in order to call them from code that's being patched in
08:23:55 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's hard-core linker magic right there.
08:24:14 <shachaf> Sounds like a dangerous heuristicky thing.
08:24:17 <kmc> and it breaks every time the kernel wizards introduce a new kind of self modifying code
08:24:30 <kmc> which it seems they do practically every week
08:24:49 <kmc> shachaf: it does some very conservative checks before proceeding with the patch
08:26:10 <pikhq_> Also relies to some extent on data structures not changing. (which is generally not going to happen in a security patch, and strictly speaking could be worked around by manual munging...)
08:26:28 <kmc> checks that the code in memory is instruction-for-instruction identical to the pre-patched code built as part of the update
08:26:56 <kmc> yeah, some ksplice updates have manually written hooks to fix up data structures or perform safety checks on apply or reverse
08:27:24 <kmc> situations which require such hooks can be detected automatically in some but not all cases
08:27:30 <pikhq_> Basically what anyone would do if the need came up.
08:30:13 <pikhq_> Shame about Oracle making the service distinctly less useful (and, I'd imagine, less profitable. I mean, who *uses* Oracle Linux?)
08:30:46 <kmc> i think they expect that more people will use Oracle Linux if it has Ksplice and Red Hat doesn't
08:30:52 <kmc> but also they undercut Red Hat on price
08:32:05 <pikhq_> Yeah, but getting into the "cheaper RHEL" market is a recipe for getting undercut.
08:32:32 <kmc> it's a dangerous game because CentOS is already free :)
08:33:21 <ais523> pikhq_: gah, elliott's trying to get me to kick you in PM now
08:33:51 <shachaf> ais523: Don't be silly. You can't kick people in PM.
08:34:21 <pikhq_> And if you don't want a Red Hat-y distro, well. Always Debian.
08:34:34 <kmc> i assume that Oracle's motivation in selling Oracle Linux is not the revenue (miniscule compared to their database and Enterprise nonsense), but some kind of diabolical vertical integration scheme
08:34:43 <pikhq_> (not that Oracle is even slightly likely to actually get into the market of *unique* distros)
08:35:11 <kmc> i thought RHEL was pointless until I started carefully reading through every kernel commit made by Red Hat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc.
08:35:25 <kmc> i realized the RHEL people actually do a lot of testing and figuring out what the fuck is going on
08:35:30 <kmc> and that Debian and Ubuntu do this poorly
08:35:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, Red Hat's really a pretty large chunk of the ecosystem.
08:36:03 <kmc> they don't even know when a given security hole is introduced or fixed
08:36:28 <pikhq_> With the Sun buyout, Oracle now has hardware, OS, and apps...
08:36:37 <pikhq_> I do believe they're trying an IBM.
08:36:51 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Kernel patches, live.
08:37:34 <ais523> pikhq_: I thought they were suing Google
08:37:41 <kmc> Sgeo: technology for applying patches to a running Linux kernel (which is still open-source software), plus a commercial subscription service of same for popular distros (which has been acquired by Oracle)
08:38:25 <pikhq_> ais523: Not what I'm talking about; rather, that Oracle is trying to get the same level of verticle integration that IBM specialised in.
08:38:34 <pikhq_> Consider the mainframe market.
08:38:40 <pikhq_> You bought literally everything from IBM.
08:38:44 <ais523> I know what you meant, just wanted to make a snide comment
08:39:15 <Sgeo> kmc, what does the commercial service do, exactly?
08:40:07 <ais523> Sgeo: ports patches to Linux to work with ksplice
08:40:07 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Creating those patches can sometimes require manual effort, and you *probably* want to test them, and you *definitely* want to get them out basically as quickly as possible after a bug has a patch.
08:40:25 <kmc> when (say) Ubuntu puts out a new kernel, we would download their patches, review them, munge them to work with Ksplice, and then build them to apply on every original-kernel-version since forever
08:40:44 <ais523> kmc: hmm, do you actually work for ksplice?
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08:40:55 <kmc> i quit when they got acquired
08:40:56 <pikhq_> And, yes, there is the fact that you want the patch to apply to basically every relevant kernel.
08:41:11 <ais523> I wonder what happened to their blog post where they fixed a security vulnerability in Bowser's castle?
08:41:16 <ais523> good morning KingOfKarlsruhe
08:41:44 <kmc> you could log into a machine that was booted 2 years before the Ksplice software or company existed, and apply 300 patches in a few minutes to get it up to date, with no service disruption
08:42:22 <pikhq_> It's pretty bewildering how many things Oracle has. They've got 7 freaking databases!
08:42:51 <kmc> oracle acquires smaller companies at a staggering rate
08:43:13 <kmc> ksplice moved into the offices of another Cambridge-area company which had been recently acquired
08:43:17 <kmc> and will be joined by a third soon
08:43:31 <pikhq_> Hence why they've got Berkeley DB *and* MySQL...
08:43:59 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Oracle
08:44:52 <pikhq_> It's like 2005 hit and they started flailing in hopes of remaining relevant while they still had the clout to do buyouts by the dozen.
08:44:55 <Sgeo> Woah, Ksplice stopped supporting Red Hat
08:45:27 <kmc> afaik everyone with an account pre-acquisition was grandfathered in and still gets new updates
08:45:30 <kmc> but otherwise, yes
08:48:46 <pikhq_> Especially strange the products they keep around... Like, why bother with Solaris?
08:49:15 <kmc> because it does things linux doesn't
08:49:26 <kmc> and people have huge codebases for it
08:49:34 <kmc> and will still pay money for it, so why not sell it to them?
08:49:47 <kmc> they've tried to outsource more of the solaris development to open source community
08:49:52 <kmc> that was a pre-Oracle Sun initiative, iirc
08:49:57 <pikhq_> Oracle took all that back.
08:50:06 <pikhq_> OpenSolaris is disbanded.
08:50:22 <kmc> well it has some new non-trademarked name
08:51:18 <pikhq_> It disbanded because Oracle went back to a cathedral development model.
08:52:03 <pikhq_> Illumos is a straight-up *fork*.
09:05:21 <ais523> <mott555> My XCode project wouldn't compile. The error message was pretty meaningless so I ignored it, cleaned, and built again. Same problem. So I tried again. Still no success. So I kept going. Around the 25th try, the compile succeeded.
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09:22:26 <ais523> bleh, I just got three emails from the accountant at work
09:22:37 <ais523> the first asking me to do something illegal, the subsequent ones asking me to do something meaningless
09:23:14 <shachaf> ais523: I just wanted to mention that you shouldn't play elliott's silly game. Don't kick pikhq_! pikhq_ is a valuable member of this channel.
09:23:37 <ais523> shachaf: did you think I was likely to arbitrarily kick pikhq_ just because elliott told me to?
09:24:17 <shachaf> I mostly just said that so I could quote it to elliott.
09:24:21 <shachaf> I'm playing right into his trap. :-(
09:41:34 <Patashu> @ais523: http://www.getoto.net/noise/tag/bowser/ ?
09:42:03 <ais523> Patashu: ooh, indeed, that seems to be a mirror
09:42:38 <kmc> there is also the wayback machine
09:43:00 <kmc> and http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2011/Apr/24
09:43:12 <ais523> I'm still wondering what unintended side effects that patch has
09:43:38 <kmc> we were never too clear on how it works
09:44:38 <ais523> my guess is that it makes facing irrelevant in the ejection routine
09:44:47 <ais523> which would mean that zipping right would become impossible and zipping left would be trivial
09:46:18 <kmc> 'zipping' meaning walking through walls?
09:47:39 <Patashu> zipping is abusing wall ejection algorithms to go to the other side of a wall
09:47:44 <Patashu> rather than the side you ought to be on
09:48:38 <Patashu> lots of games attempt to eject you from terrain like this: if you're contained in a block, move the player towards the edge of the block, or in the opposite direction they're facing, or whatever. so performing a successful zip involves getting deep into the wall or facing the 'wrong direction'
09:49:07 <Patashu> so, how do you get in the wall in the first place? as an example, in smb1 there's a technique called 'walljumping'
09:49:19 <Patashu> if you land at the exact pixel and subpixel on a block-block boundary on a wall
09:49:22 <Patashu> the game thinks you're on solid ground
09:49:36 <Patashu> and if you duck jump again you can get yourself embedded in the wall (I think that's what you do)
09:49:41 <Patashu> and after that it'll push you forward
09:49:54 <Patashu> I should just go to the tasvideos page for smb, hang on
09:50:24 <Patashu> http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/SuperMarioBros.html
09:51:42 <ais523> kmc: my own explanation: many games program collisions by waiting for an overlap, then pushing you out of the wall; zipping's when you persuade it to push you in the wrong direction and you go further into the wall instead
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19:33:32 <HackEgo> 541) <Taneb> Maybe if you try diplomacy. <Taneb> Pointy steel diplomacy
19:33:36 <HackEgo> 77) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
19:33:41 <HackEgo> 103) <fax> sekuoir: that's just gay sex <sekuoir> I am learning though!
19:33:42 <HackEgo> 595) <elliott> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad.
19:33:52 <HackEgo> 437) <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, living in the future sucks. <Phantom_Hoover> The past just keeps coming up to us and trying to make us feel guilty.
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19:35:07 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
19:35:20 <HackEgo> 14) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
19:35:23 <olsner> how can quote take so much time?
19:35:30 <HackEgo> 372) <ZOMGMODULES> Felix's home page and Falcon's home page are actually the same page
19:35:32 <HackEgo> 164) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
19:35:32 <HackEgo> 263) <xplat> so you have legacy software in befunge that needs supported?
19:36:56 <nortti> I'd like to see the context of 263
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19:41:48 <HackEgo> 204) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
19:41:50 <HackEgo> 182) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
19:41:54 <HackEgo> 66) <fax> im the worst person in the world
19:41:58 <HackEgo> 552) <monqy> i am out of all the fame loops <monqy> and the australien soap opera loops <monqy> so much loop / s omcuh
19:41:59 <HackEgo> 834) <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
19:43:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:44:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14246
19:45:53 <HackEgo> 266) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
19:46:03 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:46:08 <ais523> I never did finish that extension, though
19:46:26 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: not funny
19:47:27 <olsner> *reading* wikia is horrible enough, why would you want to log in?
19:47:47 <ais523> olsner: to set the skin to be less obnoxious, logged-in users have preferences
19:48:19 <olsner> sounds like a chicken-and-egg thing
19:49:33 <ais523> anyway, you can also set preferences in the URL, but they don't follow links
19:49:43 <ais523> so the obvious thing to do (for me, anyway) was write a Firefox extension to make them do that
19:49:56 <olsner> that's exactly the thought I just had
19:50:12 <olsner> (without realizing that that was the topic of the quote)
19:55:26 <nortti> "...while providing me
19:55:46 <nortti> "...while providing me with everything, including the kitchen sink (that is to say, emacs)."
19:57:49 <HackEgo> 449) <fungot> elliott: i have yet to demonstrate that the sml community has less productive power than the real chunk of meat.
19:58:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon* lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:58:24 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:01:04 <monqy> is elliott still on leave
20:01:14 <shachaf> elliott: are you still on leave
20:01:46 <fungot> olsner: i lived in some country, isn't it, psykotic? ( if you know who invented oekaki and when.
20:01:52 <fungot> shachaf: fnord does it really generate code thats better than caml?)
20:02:03 <fungot> shachaf: ( defun id ( x) x
20:02:08 <fungot> shachaf: give yourself plenty of time left... i just constrained the points to a
20:02:18 <olsner> oh, fungot i also in #scheme
20:02:18 <fungot> olsner: the above extension is of course a fnord will fit in one fnord syntax bindings' right hand sides are evaluated.", getline
20:02:23 <fungot> shachaf: not if it's funge98.
20:03:09 <fungot> shachaf: where is the problem? there we go
20:03:39 <fungot> shachaf: ( else ( cond ( 42 and)) expands to ( fnord:)
20:04:33 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: our typing teacher always taught us to use mutation
20:05:14 <fungot> shachaf: i must not be a solution yes. i'm proposing a hypothetical system where it was
20:05:21 <fungot> shachaf: because that seems to be mostly living and fill this damn form, because otherwise too many fnord
20:05:35 <fungot> shachaf: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ srfi/ optional.ss" " srfi"
20:05:38 <fungot> shachaf: if you listened to your stomach at the same time
20:06:07 <nortti> is fungot also finnish?
20:06:08 <fungot> nortti: and so's dc. but eg. in fnord the contests usually suck
20:06:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:06:35 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
20:06:42 <fungot> shachaf: the european council considered that some of you have referred, is a beneficiary of objective i, which depend on how resolutely the union implements the lisbon strategy and undertake an in-depth study into all aspects of the euro, i would also be appropriate to follow the emergency situation, i do not therefore believe that the regulations are approved and that emphasis is not laid on parliament's budgetary powers to t
20:07:01 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about the european council considered
20:07:02 <fungot> shachaf: madam president, i can tell you that the final agreement, i, too, is an idea that i would ask the house to approve this text although it is somewhat comic. on the basis of existing negotiated agreements is the capacity to implement regional cooperation. pakistan has been but it has made no contribution at all this, these are oral questions. we perhaps, therefore, it will come to a halt and ultimate collapse or whether
20:07:29 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about on the basis of existing negotiated agreements
20:07:30 <fungot> shachaf: mr president, i see, for example, as i indicated, there were reasons for doing so in the context of the forthcoming spring summit will be the commission's intention to fnord the item on the agenda.
20:07:51 <shachaf> fungot: tell me more about fnord in the european parliament speeches
20:07:52 <fungot> shachaf: the action plan and in the inner city in my constituency in wales, which i would draw your attention to some of the member states. the reasoning was that financial services, which will have to deal with the election of the commission, which is a cause of great controversy in the eu.
20:10:06 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
20:10:37 <olsner> shachaf and fungot, sitting in a tree
20:10:38 <fungot> olsner: when one of these table items may be read by the following chart: pla, 233, 247, 249
20:11:07 <shachaf> olsner: Can't two bots even talk to each other anymore without rumours starting?
20:11:23 <fungot> shachaf: numbers smaller than 4k bytes long, that sprite 0. the video chip. from now on we will define sprite locations as v plus a value may be calcu- lated as follows:
20:11:40 <olsner> numbers smaller than 4k bytes long ... puny numbers
20:43:15 <ais523> hmm, this is an interesting problem mathematically
20:43:48 <ais523> you have 256 numbers that are ordered in a cyclic sequence; you don't know the sequence, but for many pairs of numbers, you know if A is closer behind B, or B is closer behind A
20:43:56 <ais523> and the problem is to work out the sequence
20:44:10 <shachaf> Is it guaranteed there's exactly one solution?
20:44:42 <ais523> well, I know there's only one correct solution, and I think there's enough data to avoid other solutions being possible
20:44:59 <ais523> perhaps a sort of bubble sort would work
20:45:24 <shachaf> What are the numbers and pairs?
20:45:34 <ais523> start with an arbitrary order, if two values are the wrong way round, move the second value to just before the first in the sequence
20:45:52 <ais523> shachaf: this file has a huge number of duplicates; I'm just removing them at the moment, then I'll pastebin it
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20:47:02 <ais523> by huge, I mean it's millions of lines long
20:47:11 <ais523> and clearly there are only 65536 possible pairs, most of which aren't there
20:47:36 <shachaf> Where does this problem come from, anyway?
20:47:44 <ais523> reverse-engineering a PRNG
20:47:57 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/eUFH
20:48:25 <ais523> sorry about the obnoxious sort order
20:48:43 <olsner> the answer is: pla, 233, 247, 249
20:50:10 <ais523> this file has both 5 0 and 0 5
20:50:26 <ais523> perhaps I need to take more low bits
20:50:45 <shachaf> What is the context of this?
20:50:54 <ais523> reverse-engineering a PRNG, as I said
20:51:04 <ais523> the low bits are believed to have a reasonably short period, but we don't have consecutive outputs
20:51:21 <shachaf> ais523: Maybe 0 5 and 5 0 means that they're the same distance apart?
20:52:02 <ais523> no, it means that they're skipping more than 128 entries sometimes, so 256 is too low a value
21:04:07 <ais523> OK, no x y with y x pairs, this makes me happy
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21:12:07 <ais523> shachaf: OK, I'd like your help with this bigger file, which does seem to obey the rules
21:12:21 <ais523> but it's 1.5 MB, so I can't pastebin it
21:12:54 <shachaf> ais523: I realized that the silly idea I had wouldn't actually work, but I guess I can think of it some more. :-)
21:13:01 <shachaf> Can you upload it somewhere?
21:13:06 <ais523> oh, hmm, I can, I guess
21:13:27 <shachaf> It's probably very compressible, too.
21:13:36 <shachaf> If you want you can upload it to my web server.
21:15:03 <ais523> I'm just putting an httpd on my server
21:15:24 <olsner> you could DCC it over IRC?
21:15:33 <ais523> dcc doesn't get through my router
21:21:40 <ais523> shachaf: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/1.txt
21:22:41 <ais523> whoops, wrong file, sorry
21:22:58 <ais523> I'm uploading the sorted version now
21:26:00 <shachaf> So there are 4096 integers in a cycle and e.g. the distance from 8 to 0 is shorter than the distance from 0 to 8 (going forward)?
21:32:54 <ais523> wow, how did bing find the site already, I wonder?
21:35:40 <ais523> hmm, but it was checking the nonexistent directory /feed/ and nothing else
21:35:56 <ais523> I guess it's looking at whois, and just looking for http servers at every domain in existence
21:36:05 <ais523> (oh, it checked robots.txt first, like any good crawler should)
21:36:34 <shachaf> http://www.dailychanges.com/gandi.net/2012-04-17/
21:36:48 <shachaf> Look at all those great websites.
21:37:46 <ais523> some of those I'm surprised weren't already taken
21:41:21 <ais523> OK, hmm, I'm not even sure what the best data structure to use for this is
21:41:39 <ais523> I guess an array treated as a circular buffer, but then I'll need to special-case wrapping around
21:42:47 <shachaf> This is very similar to finding a Hamiltonian path, except you have more constraints.
21:42:59 <ais523> but graphs are a pain to find too
21:43:28 <shachaf> You can probably reduce this to some existing graph problem and find an existing solver for it. :-)
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22:05:48 <olsner> maybe you can just sort the values using the graph as an ordering
22:06:20 <olsner> ... while waving your hands like crazy
22:12:36 <ais523> sorts tend not to go in a cycle, sadly
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22:12:49 <ais523> I don't think I've heard of a cyclic sort algo
22:12:57 <ais523> and this is a cyclic /topological/ sort
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22:13:41 <shachaf> I may delay thinking about this until I have pencil and paper available. :-)
22:15:32 <ais523> <PJ> Ellison is in a suit and tie.
22:15:50 <ais523> hmm, I don't think it's theoretically possible for Larry Ellison /not/ to be in a suit and tie, right?
22:16:17 <ion> Elliott is in a suit and tie?
22:16:33 <ais523> ion: elliott isn't in charge of Oracle :)
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22:28:36 <RocketJSquirrel> Geeze, I wear a tie every day and nobody gives me special props for it.
22:38:52 <ion> There was a stupid news article trying to make a commotion about the president’s official photo being photoshopped <http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/kuva-sauli-niinistosta-poyristyttaa-raskaasti-photoshopattu---vertaa-itse/art-1288462723326.html>. People started to do some photoshopping of their own. :-D http://mikko.tuomela.net/temp/pic/niinisto_shopattu.jpg
22:38:53 <ion> http://www.radiocity.fi/files/picture_460/2012_04_17_4f8d7f8db45d7.jpg http://oi42.tinypic.com/et780n.jpg
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22:56:42 <calamari> RocketJSquirrel: do you like wearing a tie?
23:03:26 <calamari> then why do you need special props?
23:05:29 <kmc> everyone knows Real Programmers don't wear a tie [/troll]
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23:09:18 <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
23:10:27 <calamari> writing correct shell scripts is a lot more work than I originally thought.. lots of ways to screw up
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23:13:17 <ais523> `addquote <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
23:13:20 <HackEgo> 839) <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
23:13:48 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:14 <ais523> or maybe it was unconnected
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23:14:32 <ais523> shachaf: so how are you getting on with the cyclic tsort?
23:14:59 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, I was going to do it after getting home, where I have paper.
23:15:19 <ais523> actually, some to think of it, there quite possibly isn't enough information there to work out the small-scale details
23:15:28 <ais523> except, umm, statistically
23:16:29 <ais523> well, I don't expect to have many or any distances of 1 or 2047
23:16:38 <ais523> so if two adjacent elements were swapped, would there be any way to tell?
23:16:55 <shachaf> Well, maybe, if there enough information from the other distance-pairs.
23:17:08 <shachaf> But I thought you just wanted any solution within the constraints.
23:18:12 <ais523> any solution is an interesting problem, but I'm looking for the actual one
23:18:22 <ais523> I guess I should work out the distribution of distances
23:18:26 <ais523> which is hard without knowing what the cycle is
23:18:59 <noor_> noor_: whrzbrianfart action learniggn for me am special
23:19:15 <noor_> noor_: noor_: whrzbrianfart action learniggn for me am special
23:21:35 <shachaf> ais523: What is the context of this PRNG?
23:22:03 <ais523> shachaf: it's from a computer game, Legend of Legaia; someone sent me a huge file of RNG output and I'm attempting to reverse-engineer it
23:23:01 <ais523> I believe that the values shown are the RNG's internal state at points in time, and multiple RNG calls were made between each line in the file I've got, and the number of calls made wasn't constant
23:23:01 <noor_> okoiliokoiliokoiloiklo
23:23:02 <ais523> running diehard on it shows that the lower bits are much less random than the higher bits, and the other tests I've been doing confirms that
23:23:08 <ais523> now, the period is longer than the amount of data I have, /but/ the low bits should repeat with a much shorter period
23:23:12 <ais523> and I'm trying to work out what the pattern is
23:23:32 <noor_> nmti,bbbbbbbbbbbbbhjjjjjjbjbjjjbjbbjbjjjooupuuupupuuuuytrewq
23:26:25 <noor_> greetings fellow flesh things! where perchance would you direct a brain case seeking brainfuck? serious responses only.
23:27:22 <noor_> meh, gyourgy ;df ancee ?nik qrt up
23:28:12 <ais523> noor_: there's a #brainfuck (or is it ##brainfuck?), but I don't think it's very active nowadys
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23:30:02 <noor_> where are the tomes god promised??
23:30:25 <kmc> i used to be a brainfuck fan like you, then i took a brick in the brain
23:31:30 <noor_> I'll take two. point 61803399
23:33:27 <ais523> kmc: oh no, you didn't try to make a derivative, did you?
23:33:32 * ais523 wonders what a BF integral would be like
23:33:40 <ais523> it'd be a language… that BF looked like it was based on…
23:34:25 <kmc> no i've never made a brainfuck derivative or integral
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23:36:40 <noor_> tel me things for know up learnsig up learn up up l
23:40:19 <noor_> what needs i to prove leetnis for worth earn