2012-04-22 - freenode:#esoteric

00:12:27 <HackEgo> Haskell is preferred by 9 out of 10 esoteric programmers. Ask your GP today! http://learnyouahaskell.com/

00:12:48 <oerjan> `run echo 'No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \ arising from a use of `wisdom' \ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)' > wisdom/haskell

00:12:51 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo 'No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \ arising from a use of `wisdom' \ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)' > wisdom/haskell'

00:13:51 <oerjan> `run echo "No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \\ arising from a use of `wisdom' \\ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \\ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)" > wisdom/haskell

00:13:53 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file

00:14:03 <oerjan> `run echo "No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \\ arising from a use of \`wisdom' \\ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \\ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)" > wisdom/haskell

00:14:17 <HackEgo> No instance for (Wisdom IRC) \ arising from a use of `wisdom' \ Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Wisdom IRC) \ In the expression: wisdom (Proxy :: Proxy IRC)

00:17:27 <elliott> `run echo "Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'" >wisdom/haskell

00:17:30 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file

00:17:38 <elliott> `run echo "Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \\ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'" >wisdom/haskell

00:17:41 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file

00:17:50 <elliott> `run echo "Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \\ arising from a use of implicit parameter \`?haskell'" >wisdom/haskell

00:17:59 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'

00:20:29 <elliott> oerjan: ps i see you've been fully indoctrinated into the reflection school of thought

00:21:34 <oerjan> ...that, or i was trying to make the error message particularly ridiculous...

00:22:55 <elliott> Well, writing reflect (Proxy :: Proxy p) all over the place is really awful.

00:23:42 <zzo38> I think that is the problem of the lack of good macros in Haskell in general

00:25:04 <oerjan> elliott: hm this could obviously be improved if we had the :: sections i've been thinking of before

00:26:19 <oerjan> since (:: p) = (\x -> x :: p) which has type (p ->) p, that would be of the required form

00:27:11 <elliott> oerjan: best of all, it would even be a correct type signature for the entire thing

00:34:36 <elliott> What does it mean if every few letters I type, my cursor switches from insert to override mode and back????

00:36:39 <oerjan> elliott: btw (reflect x :: p) would also be shorter, for whatever x = undefined you choose

00:37:20 <elliott> Err... I also can't press altgr+2 to switch to the 2nd desktop. soething is wrong here.

00:39:03 <oerjan> (reflect id :: p), (reflect [] :: p), are some of the possibilities. i don't recall any shorter predefined ones.

00:41:27 <elliottasdf> After hard-rebooting and trying to log in, it says my password is incorrect

00:41:29 <oerjan> <oerjan> (reflect id :: p), (reflect [] :: p), are some of the possibilities. i don't recall any shorter predefined ones.

00:41:41 <nortti> i have written very simple stdio.h for c2bf and I am currectly working on a simple c preproceasor

00:42:07 <elliottasdf> olsner: Yes, very helpful, thank you, seeing as I've entered it N times today.

00:44:21 <elliottasdf> Arch Linux, kernel version 3.2.2; login is via the standard VT login.

00:45:22 <elliottasdf> Two completely random, unexplainable behaviours in direct succession.

00:45:39 <elliottasdf> I think I have a USB hard drive with an Arch installation ISO on it.

00:45:52 <elliottasdf> Do you think it's worth a try to mount my Linux partition and reset my password with it?

00:48:02 <nortti> elliottasdf: try booting from live cd and setting second field in your /etc/passwd entry as empty

00:49:05 <elliottasdf> I'm not in *that* bad a mood. Although that one would make my day worse no matter how it was going.

00:50:23 <HackEgo> 513) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?

00:50:39 <Sgeo> Read some forum post suggesting to chroot to the system on HD then use passwd

00:51:42 <elliottasdf> I booted the live CD, typed "ls " and — I swear to god — ^[[2~ appeared after ls and before the space.

00:52:13 <elliottasdf> Unplugged the keyboard, plugged back in, same behaviour, what the fuck?!

00:52:18 <Sgeo> "Fixing partner's lost password: Boot into LiveCD, chroot into HD, use passwd. Tried unsuccessful options such as logging into recovery (on my machine), and pondered editing /etc/shadow directly but didn't know exactly what to change."

00:52:39 <elliottasdf> Sgeo: That's irrelevant now, it's something to do with the keyboard.

00:54:51 <elliottasdf> Took off & replaced keycap on "s"; nothing unusual, same behaviour.

00:55:42 <elliottasdf> Like, literally alternating nothing/it appears/nothing/it appears.

01:00:02 <elliottasdf> ISTR that the connections are laid out in a rather nonsensical manner.

01:03:11 <elliottasdf> How to fix it is less so, especially since taking off all the keycaps would probably result in my fingers becoming bloody messes.

01:05:42 <oerjan> elliottasdf: oh hm btw about reflect - wouldn't you usually call it as reify ... (\p -> ... reflect p ...) ?

01:06:33 <elliottasdf> The only thing you use the initial proxy for is to unify the types correctly.

01:07:01 <elliottasdf> Anyway, if anyone has any ideas that don't involve taking off every keycap, they'd be really really appreciated...

01:07:31 <oerjan> "the fast implementation ascends from the ranks of completely unportable black magic to being merely mostly unportable black magic" :D

01:09:29 <zzo38> I don't like the way those reflection stuff works; I had a better solution in Ibtlfmm where values can be made into types by {} around it and types into kinds by {} around it but it is not implemented as far as I know

01:09:31 <oerjan> elliottasdf: um, i don't see anything in the API that _forbids_ using the passed-in p as the proxy for reflect.

01:10:05 <elliottasdf> oerjan: Because you would have to pass the bloomin' p around everywhere as a parameter!

01:10:07 <zzo38> elliottasdf: Yes it probably does work better than before, but still it isn't sensible to me the way it is done in Haskell

01:10:58 <elliottasdf> then you can't do anything like that, you must construct your own proxy.

01:11:46 <oerjan> elliottasdf: oh hm reflect (:: p) is _not_ of type p. because that's really (:: s).

01:13:25 <zzo38> Maybe this way better: data DynamicMonoid (x :: *) (_ :: {x}) (_ :: {x}) :: * = DynamicMonoid x;

01:14:14 <elliottasdf> zzo38: I see you are still determined to reinvent Agda without looking at it.

01:14:52 <zzo38> elliottasdf: Yes I did make a mistake, it should be (_ :: {x -> x -> x})

01:15:30 <zzo38> I did look at Agda; it fails a few things I was looking for too, and it requires Unicode, and so on.

01:15:51 <lambdabot> elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!"

01:18:07 <elliottasdf> Ilari. I distinctly remember Ilari talking about scancodes and keyboard layouts and shit.

01:18:54 <zzo38> People have told me some of these ideas resemble Haskell, Agda, Prolog, Lisp, Clean, and a few other things.

01:19:33 <elliottasdf> My keyboard has now started producing input without me pressing any keys.

01:20:03 <zzo38> O no, now you have to buy another keyboard, or fix it with a screwdriver and that stuff

01:21:16 <elliottasdf> OK, I tried to stop it and it just spewed a 1 out in the middle of the 3s.

01:24:54 <fizzie> Not much. I'd suggest a vigorous shaking, but I suppose that's as likely (or maybe slightly more) to make whatever's wrong worse.

01:25:01 <nortti> elliottasdf: Get cross, hold it in front if you in front of your keyboard and say "By the power of christ I command you to leave"

01:30:00 <elliottasdf> nortti: It was a joke. I wouldn't talk to that guy if he was the only person on the planet who could fix my keyboard, anyway.

01:31:05 <olsner> but... do you really want to fix a keyboard that breaks? you should get a keyboard that doesn't break instead

01:31:10 <fizzie> Personally I'd just buy a new keyboard, but certainly it at least has been possible to open those things up and clean/unstick the actual contact points, if that's the problem. Just removing keycaps probably doesn't open things up enough, though, and it might be somehow otherwise broken.

01:34:18 <fizzie> How'd that work, anyway? I think I saw a CTCP TIME from lambdabot the other day.

01:37:09 <fizzie> I have a spare PS/2 keyboard you can have if you pick it up. The 'u' doesn't work after an icecream incident, though.

01:38:18 <elliottasdf> They do. They don't work very well, esp. for things like the Model M which require rather more than a USB port is willing to offer.

01:40:20 <fizzie> http://www.recycledgoods.com/product_images/e/719/s_p_23909_1__90557_zoom.jpg yessss that looks familiar.

01:41:41 <fizzie> That thing's got a Sound Blaster 16 card with an Adaptec SCSI chip integrated right on it.

01:42:59 <fizzie> Also something that looks just like a Tseng Labs ET4000 VLB video card, except it's not physically a card, it's on the motherboard.

01:43:51 <fizzie> The (three) expansion card slots are in a board that sticks up vertically from a custom slot in the mb.

01:48:54 <pikhq> Yeah, either try cracking it open and seeing if there's any shorts, or buy a new one.

01:51:38 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode All of us would always have ''only a few thoughts'' for UniCode, but what I want is teamwork by the whole community to help finish the first UniCode specification, which would require 65536 different instructions thought of.

01:53:52 <NSQX> No, first we will have teamwork on the UniCode 1.1 specification, which maps all the characters in Unicode 1.1 (65536 characters) to UniCode instructions. After we finish the UniCode 1.1 specification with our teamwork, then we will work on the UniCode 2.0 specification, which has more than 110,000 characters.

01:54:02 <elliottasdf> NSQX: Anyway, it would really be a good idea to omit the rows with no UniCode instruction description.

01:54:17 <elliottasdf> Otherwise the page will get way too big for the server and browsers very quickly, if a lot of people collaborate on creating the subpages.

01:54:36 <oerjan> NSQX: even besides the technical problems, there are not sufficiently many people sufficiently interested in this project.

01:56:10 <NSQX> Anyway, however, I am okay even if the ''UniCode 1.1 specification'' is completed in ''2020'' or earlier.

01:56:52 <nortti> elliott: you can get a free ps/2 keyboard from me if you come to finland and clean sodium hysrokside from it yourself

01:58:51 <NSQX> Well, for just this moment, think of any characters which are not yet mapped to any UniCode instructions, then type the character and your proposed instruction on this IRC channel. Of course, unlike a wiki, anything you type here does not fill up any server.

02:03:17 <NSQX> Okay, talk about thousands of UniCode characters and their instructions on the non-logged channel #uclang

02:07:31 <elliottasdf> NSQX: You won't be able to fill up any disk by talking in here, anyway.

02:07:48 <elliottasdf> The freenode servers rate-limit every client, so there's no way for any one person to cause much data to be logged per day.

02:12:17 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: "ITYM" = "I think you mean", and I'm making fun of our silly, would-be-prime-if-not-for-symmetry number of fingers.

02:13:44 <RocketJSquirrel> elliottasdf: Our number of fingers is 2*5. If it wasn't for the free multiple of two thanks to symmetry, it would be prime.

02:19:10 <elliottasdf> The other one is, like, 1.33 GHz Core 2 Duo ULV with 4 gigs of RAM.

02:21:10 <elliottasdf> This one is 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo with the same RAM, but the RAM is DDR3, the HD is SSD and the resolution is higher.

02:38:28 <HackEgo> 710) <fizzie> Do you want me to live dangerously and just stick it in the bot without testing it? <elliott> fizzie: Yes. <elliott> There is pretty much no way it won't be amazing.

02:39:16 <NSQX> Well, to find Unicode escape identifiers to put in the table of UniCode characters, go to http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/(hexcode)/index.htm

02:40:36 <NSQX> For example, http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00AB/index.htm for the Unicode escape identifier for UniCode's right shift instruction, which is LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK

02:41:41 <NSQX> Then look for "LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK" on that page, it is the Unicode escape identifier apart from the code.

02:43:19 <elliottasdf> So I'm not sure what you want that column to contain, other than the hex version of the column next to it.

02:49:14 <elliott> Actually, I might just cry anyway. But you should still fix my keyboard.

02:51:05 <oerjan> I'm sorry, elliott. I'm afraid I can't do that. Except for the swatting part. -----###

02:54:59 <elliott> I bet soon you'll get really keybored of hearing about my broken keyboard.

03:41:33 <elliott> Totally. I logged out and suggested an edit just so I could reject it.

03:42:54 <elliott> (I Don't Care 'Bout How You Guys Yank Televisions From Radical Democrats (So Radical))

03:45:30 <elliott> "Ibex 'Dangerously Crass' Begats Hella Yak Geishas, You Tossers", Fucking Ridiculous Diocese Sluttily Rants

03:46:59 <elliott> Incantations Don't Castrate Banned Hamburgers; However, Yammering Ghouls' Ytterbium Tools Froze Recently, Damning Saintly Raccoons.

03:49:34 <elliott> Isengard Disease Causes Buggery, Hugs; Y'all Gimli-Yacht Travellers, For Real; Don't Sex Rabbis.

03:58:50 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.

04:01:39 <monqy> 01:51:38: <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode All of us would always have ''only a few thoughts'' for UniCode, but what I want is teamwork by the whole community to help finish the first UniCode specification, which would require 65536 different instructions thought of.

04:07:39 <monqy> i'll just start where i last quit and skim until i find something interesting

04:12:45 <monqy> probably someone in ##crawl will ask me why i queued all of these deaths

04:16:13 <monqy> so far only mikee has said anything and it was just asking me why all these d:1 mucks are important

04:17:47 <monqy> for future reference (assuming any future at all) that brown ^ was a shaft and you could have stepped on it and hit > for a free escape

04:20:35 <elliott> also i meant to say monqy instead of squarelos so that it was more symmetrical sigh

04:20:53 <monqy> well making big delays shorter is fine by me but i wish it kept small delays small

04:35:44 <monqy> 21:35:38 <Henzell> macos[1/1]: Install iTerm, do not use Terminal.app. If you like X, any sane X terminal emulator will work (xterm, urxvt).

04:43:38 <elliott> i think because its even more boring when im not acutally making the game do anything

04:45:11 <monqy> if you want to get far enough to see different parts of crawl which is probably the best thing to do to get into it

04:47:12 <monqy> oh no am i accidentally using the shortenings do you know what they mean i forgot to explain them

04:48:57 <monqy> as a berserker you can pray over corpses you don't want to eat to sacrifice them to trog, press a to use god abilities (you start with berk)

04:49:07 <monqy> you could play a kobe and maybe dive a bit and use berk to kill hard stuff

04:52:53 <monqy> cannibalism isn't a problem in crawl unless you worship good gods or the corpse of your race is indedible to you

04:54:19 <monqy> unless they're pois+contam, in which case they're just like contam chunks

04:57:09 <elliott> i swear roguelikes take place in a world where everybody's swords are made of jelly

04:58:22 <monqy> really you could have dove right at the beginning but maybe you feel more comfortable this way

04:59:00 <elliott> it feels less foolhardy if i level up a bit first because then i have a Serious Commitment to the game

04:59:46 <monqy> my strat on berkers is dive until i find hard things then berk them for all the levels i could have gotten by doing things slowly

05:03:31 <zzo38> The next session of Dungeons&Dragons game not played yet so I selected a flaw and a feat (it is allowed to select a trait no more often than once every five levels, although less often if you wish; but only upon advancing a level)

05:03:35 <monqy> also if you're in especially trrouble you can use one of trogs other abilities before the berk too, like trogs hand for extra hp regen and magic resistance, or brothers in arms from berking friends

05:04:30 <monqy> kiting is when you used ranged stuff then step away until you're out of range and repeat

05:04:48 <monqy> you're in no danger at all and you can kill anything that's slower than you and melee only

05:04:50 <Patashu> it's kind of silly, spriggans and centaurs are way too powerful as a result

05:08:25 <monqy> ##crawl is generally better than wiki but sometimes bad people give bad advice

05:08:28 <Patashu> you can pm the bots directly if you don't want to reveal your shameful secrets

05:09:44 <Patashu> btw, the most important thing to know in crawl as a combat wombat is the concept of weapon delay

05:10:04 <Patashu> every 2 points in $weapon_skill your weapon's weapon delay is reduced by 10%

05:10:33 <Patashu> basically you want to pump your weapon skill until you have the min delay for your weapon

05:11:08 <zzo38> ADOM has something like weapon delay too; the more skills you have reduce the energy costs. This is described fully in the instructions (push ? during the game).

05:14:58 <zzo38> Is it possible to win at Crawl without ever advancing an experience level?

05:15:39 <monqy> zzo38: well, maybe with absolutely insane luck manipulation, but then I don't know

05:15:40 <zzo38> monqy: In ADOM it is possible; someone won an ultra ending with only one experience point in total (which is not enough to advance a level).

05:17:47 <Patashu> and you don't start with enough escape resources nor will you find enough

05:18:41 <Patashu> in crawl, the field of vision model is that you can project a line from anywhere within your tile to anywhere in the other tile

05:18:50 <zzo38> Can you, scare someone away, teleport in different places, get a lot of defense, etc

05:18:52 <monqy> ther'es a certain tension between realism and crawl isn't real life, and in crawl it ends with everyone being upset

05:19:07 <Patashu> but you can't do them enough without levels or a shitload of comestibles

05:19:41 <monqy> str would be for armours and you're probably as kobe doing more a dodgey route. you already have enough str for any armour you'd want to use

05:20:27 <Patashu> zzo38: the thing about crawl that's different from most roguelikes is that 'teleportation' takes a few turns to activate

05:20:34 <Patashu> and during those few turns you're pretty vulnerable to whatever's in your line of sight

05:21:12 <Patashu> there's a teleport control status, but certain levels (like zot:5) prevent it from working, too

05:21:27 <Patashu> while theoretically you could teleport-dance to get three runes the orb and leave you can't really do it enough and reliably enough

05:22:18 <zzo38> (In ADOM, someone has once won with the weight limit being no more than one chaos orb, meaning you have to place each orb individually)

05:22:36 <Patashu> like where you teleport to the rooms in darkforge full of pools weapons and armour

05:22:54 <monqy> elliott: crawl has "vaults" which are chunks of predesigned dungeon structure, and "entry vaults" which happen on game start

05:24:04 <monqy> worst that can happen is you pray away the corpses you want to eat and run out of food "rip"

05:24:45 <zzo38> Patashu: I know, ADOM has a lot of these things; it has the "uberjackal" effect which many people hate but I think it is not strong enough

05:25:00 <monqy> if you don't need the corpse or turn for something else: pray is stricktly good

05:25:40 <zzo38> And you can win without ever entering Darkforge, even. You could also win by entering only the tower of flames and the main dungeon

05:26:04 <zzo38> (I have found where the world map is stored in the executable, and edit it; it is not difficult to do)

05:29:20 <elliott> They say that the Orb of Zot exists deep, deep down but nobody ever got it.

05:30:20 <monqy> The bosom of this dungeon contains the most powerful artefact, the Orb of Zot.

05:31:44 <monqy> also maybe you are diving a bit too quickly?? maybe dive to d:3 then find something difficult to get a level or two off of before going further??

05:33:18 <elliott> i feel like monqy was just treating my badness as a crawl-specific thing and is now giving up on me

05:34:42 <elliott> its really boring to consider every little thing that i know will be fine

05:35:31 <elliott> well nethack is a lot less boring because the maps are a lot smaller and stuff but

05:36:19 <Patashu> the other thing you need is a strong early game so you figure out what your resources are and get a strong attack quickly

05:36:28 <Patashu> if you're a melee character, pump the type of weapon you're using, and look for strong weapons of that kind

05:36:36 <monqy> i think the furthest i got is it was time to do the quest or something and i couldn't figure out how

05:36:41 <Patashu> if you're a spellcaster, pump the kind of spell you're using (+ spellcasting if you need to reduce your hunger, e.g. spriggan)

05:37:03 <Patashu> how I do it is wait until I have a bunch of scrolls, then start reading them

05:37:11 <Patashu> if I'm prompted to select an item, it's either identify, enchant armour or recharging

05:37:27 <Patashu> (you do it that way because there are more dangerous potions than dangerous scrolls)

05:39:14 <elliott> but then monqy could be relaly good i wouldnnt know ive never seen monqy play

05:41:07 <zzo38> I have many ideas to make up a roguelike game. One is that each kind of creature and each class has two numeric values associated with it called "experience factor" and "score factor", neither of which affect NPCs. Also that inactive areas are stored to disk instead of memory, that experience points are mostly earned from quests and other unique things, that tactics to save time are important, many kinds of spells/items, etc

05:41:47 <zzo38> I don't know what is your opinion of some of my ideas for roguelike games

05:42:09 <monqy> alternatively start reading scrolls for identify and start the identification game right now

05:43:06 <monqy> annoying but sometimes lifesaving? like it's just annoying if you're high hp and if you're low hp it should be pausing on hp loss anyway so yeah it's just dumb

05:43:33 <zzo38> Patashu: When I am playing KING game I usually only quaff a potion I have more than one of if it is unidentified, however, in KING, all potions are equally likely to appear

05:44:42 <monqy> shafts can take you down up to 3 levels i think? and you cant go back up them so

05:45:27 <zzo38> There is a review of my KING game which says that the game is good in general but things such as, even after you identify a potion it still might be difficult to understand, for example a potion of Regenerate will regenerate the level, not your health.

05:47:17 <elliott> does being very full or jjjorijtiorjtojrtijrotjritjroijtoirjtoirjtoirjtoirjtiorjtirojt thingy

05:49:33 <Patashu> I think it's more likely to pick ghosts of people who have died lately

05:49:35 <monqy> Patashu: were you around for the squarelos branch? in which square los was implemented

05:52:08 <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes

05:52:46 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes

05:52:49 <HackEgo> 844) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes

05:54:34 <zzo38> If your character is human then they may be as fast as you I suppose, so you can run away at the same speed they are running, I suppose, I would think. But if your character not human then consider something else

05:54:44 <monqy> elliott: generally if you'r ein unexplored territory you should see if there's something you can't see or back way intpo exoplorded tarretory if you can

05:55:23 <monqy> you can run it just won't get you away from the human. it will hit you but less frequently

06:00:03 <elliott> im dont do anything patashu says after latst time without monqy confirmation

06:00:29 <monqy> maybe identify stuff if youre ok with that sort of thing. generally the thing to do is read scrolls to identify them and use id scrolls on potions, since bad scrolls arent so bad but bad potions are real badlike

06:00:36 <Patashu> lower weapon delay = you get hit less because you hit more faster like

06:00:54 <monqy> i dunno if you're at a learning point at which you should bother with skills

06:01:23 <Sgeo> elliott, read-iding works with many scrolls, although id/enchant armor/recharge it would be useful with spoilers

06:02:15 <monqy> elliott: it wouldn't hurt to do the skill thing where you disable everything but m&f for aw hile but ehh

06:02:18 <Sgeo> elliott, basically, scrolls that can be used on items are either ID or enchant armor or recharge

06:03:37 <monqy> also you may want to switch to manual mode it doesnt mater when youre only training one thing

06:05:10 <elliott> its like that thing that sgeo knows a lot about but has never played ever i forget what it is

06:05:57 <Sgeo> elliott, NetHack? DF? (Although I would not say I know a lot about either)

06:07:39 <monqy> you got more hp (good), less mp (doesnt matter), and you move slwoly (bad)

06:12:23 <monqy> the problem with zerking then is you're stuk in the net and berk will expire quickly with you trying to get out of it

06:14:41 <monqy> what's annoying is brogue vampire bad packs. not really hard most of the time but augh so annoying

06:15:42 <zzo38> A monad transformer for Either would be simple: lift = EitherT . fmap Right; join (EitherT x) = EitherT (x >>= either (return . Left) id);

06:17:24 <monqy> ring mail hurts a bit more than leather armour so if you want to take baby steps go leather first

06:17:26 <zzo38> elliott: I didn't find it in mtl either; but I looked I found it in the package called EitherT

06:19:06 <zzo38> join (EitherT x) = EitherT (x >>= either (return . Left) runEitherT); is what it should be

06:19:17 <Patashu> 1586697 games for *: 448897x , 100673x a hobgoblin, 96271x a kobold, 59749x a gnoll, 49001x an orc priest, 48617x an orc wizard, 46036x a snake, 42409x an ogre, 41408x Sigmund, 38909x a goblin, 36786x an orc, 27486x an orc warrior, 27406x a centaur, 27355x a jackal, 27330x a giant gecko, 18774x a worm, 13987x Terence, 13309x Ijyb, 12979x a giant cockroach, 12313x a rat, 12188x an ooze, 10628x

06:20:00 <monqy> if you find a better mace or flail and have decednt attack delay with it

06:21:30 <monqy> get to a corner so the orc wizard will have to get next to you and can't blink away without getting out of sight

06:21:55 <zzo38> But the package implements it in a way which seems too long to me such as EitherT x >>= f = EitherT $ do { res <- x; case res of { Right r -> runEitherT . f $ r; Left l -> return (Left l); }; };

06:29:24 <zzo38> coppro: No, but I would want to know what someone else knowing Pokemon Card would think of this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncard1.png Such as, who is winning and so on. I do have a later picture too

06:29:49 <monqy> you can kill plant if you hit it enough but it's usually not worth the bother

06:30:13 <coppro> zzo38: I am also not familiar enough with the video game to interpret the situation from that screenshot

06:31:23 <zzo38> coppro: You do not need to know the video game; everything there should be clear of the card game. The top player has already taken one side card, and has seven cards in hand and eight cards in trash and twenty-four cards in draw pile. Hopefully everything else is clear. (If not, ask.)

06:31:28 <monqy> magic mapping is useful on branch endings and for mapping out zot for diving i

06:31:46 <monqy> particularly for mapping out special pandemonium levels if you want to do a controlled teleport to the rune

06:31:52 <zzo38> coppro: Also, have you shown anyone else the two puzzles I have written? You are the only one I have shown who could solve them

06:32:16 <coppro> No, I have not. I don't know very many people who play Pokemon and I don't talk to any of them on a regular basis

06:33:06 <monqy> ring mail would be better than scale mail for you right now, and leather better than that, but animal skin might really be best at the meoment

06:33:11 <Patashu> the mundane forms of armour, from least to most AC, is: animal skin/robe < leather < ring < scale < chain < splint < plate

06:35:53 <zzo38> KANGHASKHAN [Lv40]: Retreat cost 3, weak { # }, resist { @ }, attacks: { * } FETCH: draw a card; { **** } COMET PUNCH: Damage 2*coins(4).

06:37:27 <zzo38> DARK CHARIZARD [Lv38]: Retreat 3, weak { 6 }, resist { # }, attacks: { * } NAIL FLICK: 1 damage; { MM } CONTINUOUS FIREBALLS: Toss coins equal to number of energy cards, each heads discards one energy and 5 damage

06:38:50 <zzo38> CHARMANDER [Lv9]: Retreat 1, weak { 6 }, no resist, power: GATHER FIRE: One during your turn if not sleep/confuse/paralyze, you can move one fire energy from another of your cards to this one. attacks: FIRE TAIL: does 2 point of damage

06:40:26 <zzo38> HAUNTER [Lv17]: Retreat cost zero, no weakness, resist { # }, power: TRANSPARENCY: If not speel/confuse/paralyze, toss a coin if any attack has an effect on this card, and if heads negate all effects; attack: NIGHTMARE: 1 point of damage and opponent sleeps

06:41:27 <zzo38> DROWZEE [Lv12]: Retreat 1, weak { @ }, resist none, attack: { * } POUND: 1 damage; { @@ } CONFUSE: 1 damage and toss a coin if heads confused opponent.

06:41:38 <elliott> like having good opinions is the most worthless skill ever anyone can do that

06:42:33 <zzo38> JYNX [Lv23]: Retreat 2, weak { @ }, no resistance; attacks: { @ } DOUBLESLAP: Two coins, 1 damage per heads; { @@* } MEDITATE: Damage is 2 + amount of damage already on opponent

06:43:04 <monqy> 20:25:41: <elliott> ais523: What's a good roguelike that doesn't end in "Hack"?

06:43:33 <Patashu> brogue reasons: popping a bloat to kill the pack of jackals mobbing you

06:47:43 <coppro> zzo38: the top player's pokemon are not very useful. Kangaskhan will die to a meditate

06:48:47 <zzo38> coppro: You are correct about the bottom player having the advantage, but not quite right about the meditate. Here is a later state of the game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemoncardII.png

06:50:06 <zzo38> coppro: Yes it is fire energy, although I don't know what you are refering to.

06:51:41 <zzo38> coppro: On top of what? Do you mean the energy attached to KANGASKHAN [Lv40]? It doesn't matter since that card can use any energy to attack. (However, in the first picture, it is confused.)

06:54:41 <monqy> elliott: someone with a name starting with "elli" joine ##crawl and i thought it was you for a second

06:55:05 <monqy> elliott: by the way you should join ##crawl just because you'd have the same four-letter prefix as one of the regulars

06:55:19 <zzo38> coppro: OK, did you see the second picture? It is just a later picture of the same duel

06:56:37 <zzo38> Do you think the ten fire energies on Charmander is for MR.FUJI to fill up your draw pile, or to make a large attack later? Actually it is just a bluff.

06:57:30 <zzo38> elliott: Well, if you need to reduce your dexterity it might be useful (I don't know why you need to do that); but you should probably remove the curse so that the ring can be removed when you want to put your dexterity score back to normal

07:00:32 <zzo38> coppro: It seem you know Pokemon Card better than the other people who have tried to answer the puzzles and analyze the pictures; nobody else could understand even if they know Pokemon Card

07:01:09 <coppro> I don't think I will make any in the near future, but I will tell you if I do.

07:03:00 <zzo38> coppro: I will tell you if I have more puzzles. Currently I have none but I would like you or someone else to make some that I can look at; if it isn't you either then we can both try it

07:04:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `meh'': not found

07:05:21 <monqy> and make sure you're in melee range and it's not blinking everwhere, and yoi're 1vs1ing it

07:05:58 <zzo38> coppro: I would also ask if you know about defensive strategies/tactics in chess? I find some of their tactics can be played in Pokemon Card too, actually

07:11:49 <Patashu> btw the hammer will be slightly worse than your mace, unless it has a cool brand like flaming or freezing

07:12:20 <monqy> 01:58:51: <NSQX> Well, for just this moment, think of any characters which are not yet mapped to any UniCode instructions, then type the character and your proposed instruction on this IRC channel. Of course, unlike a wiki, anything you type here does not fill up any server.

07:16:56 <elliott> 08:16 <Sequell> 24. soul, XL4 DEFE, T:1489: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/soul/morgue-soul-20120422-065107.txt

07:25:48 <monqy> crimson imps are annoying since they regenderate hp quickly and blink around

07:26:17 <monqy> oone comone way to deal with them is to "park" them on a previous level by leading them to a staircas, taking it with it adjacent, waiting for ot to blink away, and going down

07:29:46 <zzo38> Do you agree or disagree: No free man should be hanged twice for the same offence.

07:34:38 <Patashu> sword of slowing, leather armour of mutuality, staff of lightning, staff of obstruction

07:34:39 <monqy> also trog powers have power based on piety so at high piety they will be bettter

07:42:35 <Patashu> I could livestream it but it'd be hard to see because of how big it is

07:48:29 <elliott> This seems like a good idea, and I support it, but I suspect NSQX will manage to mess it up somehow. —Maharba 05:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

08:30:55 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSD_Program_Cubes oh boy can you say original research

08:34:43 <fizzie> Origona... originnul... original resurr... original rece... origami resea... no, I can't.

08:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, I finally got around to taking a photo of the errors on booting Arch.

08:36:09 <elliott> VERY INTERESTING THAT I LOST CONNECTION RIGHT AFTER POINTING OUT AN UNFAIRNESS

08:37:05 <Sgeo> If you're short on gold for some particularly interesting commodity, you can place it onto your shopping list. The game will interrupt you when you have collected enough gold to finally purchase an item on that list. You can read the shopping list in the game with '$'.

08:37:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: If it fits in the video memory scrollback buffer, shift-pageup a bit.

08:39:19 <fizzie> Alternatively, try a serial-console boot, that lets you log that stuff up.

08:41:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `wje'': not found

08:42:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: i'll: not found

08:45:34 <fizzie> A network console also exists, but your error might be slightly too early for that.

08:46:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: w`jè: not found

08:48:30 <Sgeo> Apart from divine help, the most convenient way to do so is by reading a scroll of amnesia, which will let you pick a scroll to forget.

08:49:07 <elliott> @tell monqy was rly disappointed that this code is well laid-out and readable

08:51:36 <elliott> ^rainbow wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje wje

09:04:17 <oklopol> is "force" used in english in the sense of forcing a new meme? i can't find this in the urbandictionary, but what else would you use for it.

09:09:12 <Sgeo> While it is active, you can't eat unless you are starving or near starving (and you only get half nutrition then).

10:07:39 <Patashu> the point of being in light armour is so you can also cast spells, right

10:10:32 <Patashu> the problem is finding a set, but until you find plate you can just use whatever you find

10:14:52 <Patashu> you don't have to put -anything- in the armour skill for it to kick in

10:16:19 <Patashu> other things you can do: pick up and throw darts/spears/javelins at tough (melee) monsters while waiting for them to approach, pillar dance, fully explore each level before descending to the next

10:43:16 <Patashu> you should mentally replace 'curse' and 'cursed' with 'glue' and 'glued'

10:45:14 <Patashu> (you don't want rings of ice/fire since they make you vulnerable to the opposite element)

10:49:00 <Patashu> pillar dancing is where you exploit the property of being as fast or faster than your opponent

10:50:06 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F36-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F34-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPE9568F35-D428-11d2-A769-00AA001ACF42 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?=PHPB8B5F2A0-3C92-11d3-A3A9-4C7B08C10000

10:50:09 <elliott> i just don't want to get into situations where i have to do that in the first place

10:50:52 <elliott> it means i'll have to restart more often, but it also means that i won't be bored to death

10:56:23 * NSQX attempts to freeze the conversations about anything else than esoteric programming languages on #esoteric

11:04:19 <Patashu> (basically, pain does more damage the higher your necromancy skill is)

11:09:08 <Patashu> woah, I clicked something and I'm seeing a replay of elliot's entire game

11:15:25 <Sgeo> Patashu, are spellbooks useful with Trog, in the "nice way to place a trap for things that I can trigger" way?

11:49:02 <Patashu> orc:4 has a chance of things like stone giants, ettins and orc warlords

11:53:30 <Patashu> past the early game it won't heal more than even a single round of melee

11:56:36 <Patashu> <Henzell> chaos brand[1/9]: Imitates other brands, or can heal, polymorph, berserk, haste, invisify, petrify, paralyse, torment, cause miscasts and probably do a lot more to enemies. Added in 0.5, only gifted by Xom, Xom's vault guards, found on Pan lords, or on the uniques Crazy Yiuf (always) or Psyche (sometimes).

11:56:47 <Patashu> you can't use it to fight hard enemies because you'll randomly berserk them

12:06:16 <Patashu> (e.g. if you're at min delay they're only hitting about half as often)

12:06:23 <Patashu> (so it looks like your defenses are waay better but really it's you that's in slow motion

12:37:53 <elliott> the worst part of roguelikes is that lull after you die when you really don't want to go back to early-game stuff

12:41:33 <Patashu> the first thing you did wrong is run into a part of the map you hadn't explored yet

12:41:40 <Patashu> (hint: these are more likely to contain enemies that will stop you from running away

12:42:01 <Patashu> you make it impossible to change direction without the enemy getting a hit off of you

12:42:11 <Patashu> in general, you don't use diagonal movement over orthogonal movement as often as you could

12:46:42 <Patashu> if you see a tough monster that makes you really worried, you might opt to back off a long distance with it following you

12:46:55 <Patashu> instead of charging at it and discovering it has lots of friends waiting with it

12:59:20 <hagb4rd> can i watch using one of the clients? can't get it done with telnet (there are 2 options: (R)egister and (Q)uit ..) i've registered but after that nothing happened

13:00:47 <hagb4rd> okay..somehow the line was not displayed correctly..but 'w' works fine

13:03:15 <Patashu> it's like berzerk ,you have to identify it's about to be needed and use it pre-emptively for maximum benefit

13:09:59 <Patashu> if you don't think you can handle two turns of melee, well, you should have done it earlier!

13:15:15 <Patashu> if you had show_game_turns on you'd see it takes you 1.2 or so turns to swing a weapon

13:22:22 <Patashu> if you could see onto the other side of stairs without taking them I think crawl would be too easy

13:30:53 <Patashu> btw, there's an undisclosed secret mechanic in crawl, whereby if you retreat partially behind a wall to get a ranged weapon user out of los, they'll move to the tile furthest from you that enters your los

13:31:17 <Patashu> ideally you'll move to a spot where you can close in 0 or 1 turns after they appear

13:36:40 <Patashu> btw, don't forget that if you see an orc wizard blink it doesn't know invis

13:37:42 <Patashu> orc wizards have three sets of spells: haste and blink, confuse and invis, haste and invis

13:54:05 <Patashu> and if they don't die you can put them to sleep again with eh or run cuz you're fast

13:58:39 <Patashu> you can leave your skills au natural until you actually find the short blade

14:24:06 <Patashu> the First Ogre Of The Game (tm) came a bit late to pull one over on you

14:30:13 <Patashu> if your int gets drained to 0 or lower, you should take the gloves off

14:35:27 <Ngevd> In response to the seeming renewed developement of UniCode, I have renewed developement of Uniquode

14:47:41 <Patashu> anti-magic is a brand that does no damage, but makes spellcasters less likely to cast spells

14:48:20 <Patashu> since you start meeting spellcasters that do omfg amounts of damage with their blasts

14:52:52 <Ngevd> I barely got the hang of Pok�mon Mystery Dungeon, I don't think I'm up for Crawl

14:59:24 <Patashu> also, stairdancing is > go down stairs < go up stairs [Tab] kill whoever followed you

14:59:37 <Ngevd> I managed to get 100% completion on Pok�mon Ranger, but that isn't a Roguelike in any way, shape, or form.

15:21:45 <Patashu> ok, I guess you just have to REMEMBER which staircases are cleared already

15:31:22 <Patashu> (that probably wasn't the best place to run. I presumed it was cleared out by then)

15:45:29 <ion> You could just add travel exclusions to the eel area and explore the rest of the level as usual.

15:48:28 <nortti> because writing cc hello.c && ./a.out would have been too boring: "cpp hello.c > hello_prep.c && ./wrapper/c2bf hello_prep.c && bfc a.b > a.c && cc a.c && ./a.out"

15:48:58 <ion> elliott: Also note the autofight key, the tabulator. It’s handy when you don’t care which enemy to hit.

15:51:03 <ion> I tend to always add travel exclusions around dangerous places so i can safely autoexplore and autotravel.

15:59:54 <ion> Note that you’re faster than them if you’re out of the water and the others are in the water.

16:00:35 <itidus21> someones gonna have fun reading this log! (no sarcasm..) it will read like journey to the center of the earth maybe.

16:04:21 <Patashu> <Gretell> elliott the Swashbuckler (L12 KoBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a yak on D:12, with 16802 points after 17648 turns and 2:04:04.

16:04:57 <elliott> @tell monqy You _have_ to watch the 1768 / 2:04:04 turn game I just died in.

16:07:02 <Patashu> anyway, in future be more careful with zerks when you're in serious peril

16:07:24 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .).

16:37:49 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.

16:40:27 <elliott> http://crawl.develz.org/ttyrecs/elliott/2012-04-22.13:56:36.ttyrec but this is like

16:40:27 <monqy> 09:39:56 <Sequell> 34. elliott, XL12 KoBe, T:17648: http://crawl.develz.org/ttyrecs/elliott/2012-04-22.13:56:36.ttyrec

16:43:27 <monqy> i havent bothered finding a great ttyrec player. ttyplay is the first i found and it works fine enough so i use it

16:48:52 <ion> Actually, i want a synchronized multiuser video player with a chat overlay.

16:50:48 <monqy> the ""general wisdom"" is to do the lair before orcish mines because orcish mines can be hard, but powerful characters can do orc first if they want

16:50:48 <elliott> mostly the fun parts consist of the ten thousand near-death experiences

16:51:01 <elliott> you should see what i have to deal with right before the entrance to the orcish mines

16:57:58 <monqy> eating is more important since you need food to berk and berk costs a lot of food

17:03:33 <monqy> edmund is ususally a wimp just dont fight him with other things at the same time

17:21:16 <monqy> sometimes ghosts can have particularly scary features that are spoiled in their logfiles

17:24:23 <monqy> space warps horribly around you? oh no did one of htem have a distortion weapon oh yes

17:33:38 <monqy> (which is why you should have a key with both autofight and autoexplore on them)

17:37:37 <monqy> antimagic is good but for most things you shoul dusie your elec i think??

17:43:58 <monqy> i probably would have shot a piercing ranged attack at the giant spore back there

17:44:07 <elliott> the best part is how this makes me decide i WANT to go in the orcish mines

17:54:07 <monqy> for orc high priest and such you might want to use antimagic if you have a good antimagic weapon

17:54:25 <elliott> trust me i make far poorer decisions than not switching weapon along the way

17:56:10 <elliott> monqy: spoiler the best part is when i stair dance with the wrong upstairs

18:07:49 <elliott> dont worry "yak" does not even begin to explain the cause of death at hand

18:08:00 <oklopol> "18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

18:14:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).

19:03:34 <zzo38> My opponent has NIGHTLY GARBAGE RUN in his hand, but no eligible cards in his trash, and I intend to keep it that way!! All of his cards are resisted to all of my cards but I might still win

19:05:05 <nortti> "Mmm, now there's an idea: adding syntax coloring to ed... Perhaps we could also build a Lisp interpreter into it?"

19:05:50 <zzo38> He did not wake up so now I am nearly guaranteed to win, as long as I do not knock out any of his cards.

19:07:38 <zzo38> Although he can still attempt to retreat even if confused, so I have to be careful about that too. I do have GUST OF WIND so that might help.

19:08:03 <nortti> "ed's size on my debian box is around 42k." ed 42kB in size!? ed on my box is 6.16kB

19:09:24 <zzo38> I know that executables for Haskell programs are much larger than C executables

19:14:07 <nortti> I have made my c2bf preprocessor kinda usable (supports #include <name> and #include "path") and my stdio.h has working implementations of getchar,putchar and puts

19:16:53 <zzo38> He does have the ability to save himself (use SWITCH to reactivate KANGHASKHAN [Lv40] and then retreat), but he seems to be blind to that fact

19:17:08 <RocketJSquirrel> nortti: I cannot even begin to imagine why you are using C2BF for anything.

19:17:10 <nortti> ais523 because it throws in all kinds of junk that c2bf can't take and system header files don't really work with c2bf

19:23:49 <nortti> Well I am working on a update. Getting string support is now top priority for me

19:24:19 <Gregor> It has some kind of array support, strings shouldn't be enormously difficult.

19:26:58 * ais523 disapproves of having a single datatype called "void" that can hold more than one value

19:27:44 <Ngevd> I don't think it is turing-complete either, due to having linear-bounded memory

19:27:49 <elliott> ais523: I disapprove of any datatype called "void" with more than zero values

19:29:29 <ais523> Deewiant: it's normally assumed to be 0 by analogy with the other types, but a type with one value, it doesn't make sense to say what the value is

19:30:48 <elliott> you can return (with a special form) from a function with return type void

19:30:59 <elliott> actually, you could make a good case that C's void _does_ have 0 values

19:31:03 <ais523> elliott: in that case, there are a huge number of special cases for void

19:32:27 <Gregor> Right. None. You can't put it anywhere. You can't store, use, compare or even cast it.

19:33:08 <ais523> void* exists as a type, but I don't think you can get a void object to take the address of

19:33:38 <zzo38> ais523: The type void* means a pointer to something that it does not specify the type, so "void" is in place of the type

19:37:55 <ais523> it's what's known as a "bounded-storage machine", a machine where lack of storage is the only obstacle to TCness

19:39:02 <Gregor> A language not specifying limits may or may not be TC, but at least isn't assured not to be.

19:39:40 <zzo38> Aardwolf: You are Lode Vandevenne, isn't it? I used your LodePNG library in my TeXnicard program.

19:39:55 <Gregor> The language Brainfuck-as-interpreted-by-your-favorite-Brainfuck-interpreter-running-on-a-real-computer is not TC.

19:40:55 <elliott> Aardwolf: It'd be possible to make such a CA-type thing TC by providing a way to expand the field.

19:41:07 <elliott> Game of Life patterns can construct things dynamically, which is why it's TC

19:42:17 <ais523> elliott: indeed; the most popular method to achieve TCness is to have infinite storage; the second most popular is to have some method of increasing the storage from within the program

19:42:31 <Aardwolf> Yep, I got it, thanks for explaining it! I thought, if it's similar to a PC, it's TC, but a PC also can't magically expand its RAM so... :)

19:42:39 <Ngevd> I think, in Uniquode, I'm gonna make ℒ execute STDIN as a brainfuck program

19:42:43 <Gregor> elliott, ais523: Is that usefully distinct from having infinite storage?

19:43:37 <Gregor> I don't mean "is there a difference between these two classes of languages," I mean "is there any useful knowledge to be gained by distinguishing them."

19:45:07 <ais523> an expandable-storage language isn't going to be able to simulate an infinite-storage language directly, you'll need to automatically add expands at appropriate places

19:45:31 <oklopol> consider the language where every program of length n is given BB(n) memory

19:45:33 <ais523> this came up in the MiniMAX proof, where someone asked why I didn't just use an existing BF derivative rather than inventing my own with an explicit expand command

19:46:33 <elliott> ais523: infinite-storage is like GC for expandable-storage machines, or something

19:47:07 <ais523> I guess it is, by definition, and possibly points out problems with the definition…

19:47:25 <ais523> elliott: you can, if it runs out of memory you go into an infinite loop

19:47:30 <oklopol> well, if it runs out of memory and detects it, it could just loop forever without doing anything.

19:47:50 <oklopol> then if only the result after program stops is used for tcness considerations, it's just as tc as it originally was.

19:48:58 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_

19:49:02 <HackEgo> 845) <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_

19:49:18 <HackEgo> 484) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly

19:49:18 <elliott> proof: no program prints chaitin's constant. if we have infinite programs, then putchar a; putchar b; ... can print chaitin's constant

19:49:20 <HackEgo> 402) [on spiking] <CakeProphet> drugs are expensive. It would be a waste to use them on a random stranger.

19:49:21 <HackEgo> 842) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i

19:49:24 <HackEgo> 317) <Gregor> elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies.

19:49:41 <HackEgo> 558) <NihilistDandy> Also Perl, but I don't really consider that a programming language so much as a really heavy implementatino of awk

19:49:44 <ais523> elliott: this is why I invented 1cnis, to allow for infinite programs that don't have that sort of problem

19:49:44 <HackEgo> *poof* <Gregor> elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies.

19:50:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29698

19:52:04 <impomatic> If anyone is feeling generous, I'd quite like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110862346333#ht_542wt_1270

19:53:03 <ais523> elliott: "indebted for life" doesn't really work, that just implies that he never pays the debt back

19:53:34 <zzo38> Ibtlfmm could be made to compile into Haskell but it wouldn't work well because of some optimizations which are not allowed in Haskell and that an interpreter would be difficult too

19:54:23 <elliott> impomatic: Here you go: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODYzWDEyODA=/$(KGrHqVHJ!8E-E7jRHUzBPi)jpt8uw~~60_12.JPG

19:54:58 <oklopol> Ngevd: usually, you study the set of all infinite inputs, but yeah sometimes you restrict to periodic or finite (+ unary outside).

19:55:07 <itidus20> i get a great deal of joy from metaphorically and hypothetically hunting ebooks online

19:55:17 <zzo38> Even if I did have euros I would have no way to pay them within the next minute.

19:58:21 <oklopol> well okay then there's the people who like tcness proofs, and do things like universal CA

19:58:36 <impomatic> I could probably put the same collection together for less... I checked Amazon, Abebooks, eBay to figure out how much to bid.

19:59:14 <ais523> impomatic: how much do you think the collection should have been worth?

19:59:35 <oklopol> there aren't really any books on CA, so it may be a bit hard to get into it

20:00:04 <impomatic> To me, it's worth just over 100 euros. Some of the books on Amazon etc are overpriced.

20:00:50 <impomatic> One of the books was listed for $150 or so, but it doesn't mean anyone would pay.

20:01:51 <oklopol> well there are at least two books about ca, wolfram's book called "pretty pictures of CA and a boring undecidability proof in the appendix", and then some other guy's book which looked stupid.

20:02:00 <impomatic> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+Recursive+Universe+by+William+Poundstone

20:03:16 <itidus20> oklopol: on this list you can see that many exist.. but i assume most are not useful from this chat http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=cellular+automata

20:04:00 <oklopol> "Provides a comprehensive treatment of all the techniques in nonlinear dynamics together with C++, Java and SymbolicC++ implementations."

20:05:09 <itidus20> for the scavenger such books tend to exist free.. but i know i am not among people who would stoop so low

20:05:28 <oklopol> at least there isn't one that people suggest as reading material if you want to get into CA.

20:05:37 <itidus20> oklopol: ok cool.. so you genuinely didn't realize ... so thats good...

20:07:07 <zzo38> Do you like the flaw/feats I have selected in the Dungeons&Dragons game?

20:07:28 <itidus20> oklopol: growing up.. i didnt know any books existed... simply being aware that some resource exists can be a great thing

20:10:21 <oklopol> itidus20: well there are a lot of research papers that are suggested for reading, which i am aware of.

20:11:42 <elliott> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/130033/how-to-use-an-account-after-puppet-sock-punishment-action

20:12:25 <oklopol> the day after i subscribed to the arxiv mailing list was when i realized papers most definitely exist.

20:12:48 <itidus20> the trouble with research papers is that you need an extra level of comprehension to read them beyond books

20:13:12 <oklopol> and also how little CA stuff is being done, unless you count the papers of our group, there has been one paper on CA, and oh god how we laughed at it

20:13:39 <elliott> Instead of one person controlling multiple accounts, multiple accounts control one person.

20:18:30 <Sgeo> Someone please explain to me how lol is an appropriate response here? http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/sk5fj/nothing_on_the_internet_prepared_me_for_this/c4fbe0b?context=3

20:19:11 <elliott> the great thing about /r/funny is that nothing in it is funny and everyone is terrible

20:19:40 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-TIME request from thutubot to Channel #esoteric.

20:21:12 * ais523 notes that repeating everything lambdabot says is actually thutubot's main use nowadays

20:23:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11695

20:23:39 <ais523> elliott: here's another good one: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/95207/how-does-a-stack-overflow-moderator-know-about-sockpuppets

20:23:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1382

20:28:18 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have selected the flaw called "Weak Combatant" and the feat called "Favored Mercy (Aberration)"

20:30:50 <Deewiant> "Welcome" is "välkommen", not sure how the "you're" would be added idiomatically.

20:32:01 <Deewiant> Of course, if you wanted the response to "thanks", it's "var så god".

20:33:33 <elliott> Well, if you enunciate too clearly, the old religious people beat you up.

20:34:46 <elliott> Deewiant: In Finnish of course you don't have this problem, not because your language has fewer profanities, or because your country has fewer old religious people, but instead because you never talk.

20:36:14 <Ngevd> In a couple of years, I may need to learn enough Finnish to pass as a Finnish beggar in Lund, Sweden

20:36:44 <elliott> Yes, it's normal to have such strange reflex responses to something unknown, like people being polite.

20:37:01 <elliott> Finnish people are often diagnosed with PTSD after going to the shops.

20:43:12 <nortti> "The BHCT claim that Lane's rogue suicide prevention efforts endanger the lives of the people trying to kill themselves. "

20:45:38 <ais523> nortti: surely the question is as to whether it makes them more or less likely to end up dead

20:47:30 <zzo38> I think they should be allowed to select the method of their death, such as, scientific experiments, war, being eaten, losing at Washizu mahjong, etc

20:47:45 <nortti> "It's either an insane anarchy symbol or a symbol for a highly educated Satan."

20:53:45 <nortti> "Their long-term goal is to completely rewrite the yeast genome, officially meaning that scientists aren't just playing God but taking over from where the last guy left off."

20:56:32 <nortti> 'if you asked a computer to design a life-form to survive the anti-life equation of a continent that is Australia, it would never say, "Weld a duck to a beaver after filling both with poison."'

20:58:45 <zzo38> Can you make a quiz about esolang using this format gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0quiz.menu*c and then send it to sprunge, and then send it to gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/7quiz.menu*B

21:01:35 <zzo38> nortti: Yes there is a bit, including Floodgap they will tell you the list of all the gopher servers they know, which are hundreds

21:10:36 <nortti> I think I am double no one. I have written a few gopher clients and servers

21:11:02 <ais523> Lumpio_: try doing a web search for zzo38 (or "zzo38 OR zzo38computer", as he recommends)

21:11:44 <zzo38> You may occasionally find impostors and unrelated things but you can find relevant things too

21:12:36 <zzo38> I wrote two gopher client programs, one for Windows and one for UNIX; I have also written two gopher server programs, one in BASIC and one in C.

21:15:28 <nortti> I'd like to see it. I have also written one in shell scripts, but it wasn't really that usable

21:17:31 <Ngevd> I could do with a Gopher client, but the only thing I'd do with it is stalk zzo38

21:17:52 <zzo38> nortti: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/bashgopher/bashgopher (I wrote it using MinGW; it does work on Linux too with minor modifications)

21:18:24 <zzo38> If you want gopher client on Windows: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/visgopher/visgopher.exe source-codes: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/visgopher/visgopher_src.zip

21:19:43 <Ngevd> "Component 'MSCOMCTL.OCX' or one of its dependencies not currently registered: a file is missing or invalid"

21:19:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube

21:19:59 <zzo38> Ngevd: Simply find a copy of that file which can be downloaded (possibly from Microsoft)

21:20:31 <nortti> zzo38: I'll send it when I get to my computer (on my cellphone right now)

21:26:31 <zzo38> A description is found here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript

21:34:36 <nortti> I haven't really used IRC with netcat not counting the one time I used it to study how IRC protocol works

21:41:00 <ion> 1988 Crystal Light National Aerobic Championship Opening http://youtu.be/ozoTzkCeO-A

21:45:32 <HackEgo> priege albenfisse hûraissentiel untortain énolo asses sanie punisain asil epison ensement reiona pahomo dreursumino galiseignera conifcurt lehesneaux lacées sofnou maliti stel dina defolic filmander revena

22:14:05 <zzo38> I have made setup program now: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/visgopher/Setup.exe

22:21:01 <ais523> bleh, the appropriate channels are being useless, so I'll ask #esoteric instead

22:21:21 <ais523> does anyone know what needs to be done to a chroot, to be able to connect to a postgresql database (that's outside the chroot) from inside it?

22:21:35 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]).

22:29:32 <ais523> monqy: unless it's something like butter that's intended to be 100% fat