2012-04-01: 00:05:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:26 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 00:13:25 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:14:18 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius. 00:30:25 ais523: you don't happen to use Thunderbird as a feed reader? 00:33:31 no, I use Akregator 00:33:43 which is decent once you've memorised it's slightly unintuitive controls 00:36:56 ais523: where's America? 00:37:05 elliott: left 00:37:19 thanks 00:37:26 how long a walk is it? 00:38:40 If you can breathe underwater, a few months. If you can't, the remainder of your days. 00:39:03 what if i can fly 00:39:13 That's not walking now is it? 00:39:25 well i could move my legs 00:40:18 no you couldn't, no legroom in those things 00:40:44 -!- augur has joined. 00:41:22 what, the air? 00:42:48 Hey, hiato is in #haskell. 00:42:50 We're being the deprived. 00:47:13 m (→‎Examples: return for int func is nec in c std.) 00:47:14 no it's not! 00:54:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:03:25 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:51 breathing? naw 01:09:46 Anybody have a recommended IM-over-IRC proxy server? 01:10:06 RocketJSquirrel: Are there any others than Bitlbee? 01:10:11 Just use Pidgin, man. 01:10:47 Upon further observation, bitlbee isn't just a service, it's an available server. 01:10:54 No idea why I thought it was service-only >_> 01:11:02 It sucks, though. 01:11:07 Huh. 01:11:23 Come to think of it, all I really want is a IM proxy, it doesn't need to be over IRC. An IM BNC is what I want. 01:11:33 why a proxy? 01:11:34 It's an incredibly leaky abstraction, and the "one big administrative/contact list room" model is just weird. 01:11:40 to hide your identity? 01:11:57 ais523: Most of the IM services I use suck when you have multiple connections. 01:12:00 Especially since "nobody in this room sees anything I say apart from the things I prefix with their name; also only I see anybody else saying anything" is a really, really disorienting thing for an IRC channel to be. 01:12:17 ...and I won't even get started on how painful it makes group conversations in protocols that don't have explicit "named" group conversations. 01:12:22 ais523: You can't see your outgoing messages from other connections, and frequently even miss incoming messages if another connection has been active more recently. 01:12:35 right 01:12:39 why do people use IM for anything, again? 01:12:50 AFAICT it solves the same problem as IRC, but worse 01:13:26 ais523: IRC is channel-oriented, IM is person-oriented. IRC could be a perfectly workable IM protocol, but the clients are tailored for a different kind of communication. 01:13:43 Which is why Pidgin is a shitty IRC client and XChat is a shitty IM client. 01:20:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:20:55 -!- augur has joined. 01:21:08 ais523: what's the most serious thing I could possibly do to Esolang? 01:21:31 hmm, hard to think of, I guess 01:21:47 some sort of big combined interpreter that does amazing things 01:21:51 or a large standard library project 01:22:00 well, boring people would expect me to do something silly to Esolang today 01:22:21 so I have to do something very serious and bureaucratic instead 01:23:22 yep 01:39:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:38 What things, specifically? 01:42:33 -!- nortti has joined. 01:45:20 zzo38: that's what i was asking! 01:46:07 elliott: I'm famous! 01:46:38 oh no 01:46:39 what happened 01:54:26 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 02:10:26 -!- augur has joined. 02:11:15 shachaf: How many IO concepts are there in Haskell? 02:15:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:15:51 -!- augur has joined. 02:16:54 elliott: concepts? aren't those a C++ thing? 02:17:07 * elliott is just repeating a stupid question from #haskell. 02:19:39 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 02:20:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:23:16 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:32:06 " olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" <-- I'm already bathing with the snakes, so why not? 02:33:08 but so far, I don't think I'm doing anything that's actually not possible in C++03, just a matter of convenience 02:33:29 oh, that was just a random noooo 02:33:52 mmhm? 02:34:04 I don't get what it was referring to, but ok 02:35:02 nothing at all 02:35:32 elliott: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 02:35:42 YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES 02:36:21 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK 02:38:19 HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 02:43:52 `WELCOME 02:44:02 WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE 02:44:10 nice 02:45:16 How do I remove the maximize and close buttons in Windows? I never use them anyways, but sometimes I accidentally click them when I meant to click minimize. 02:45:47 you could use a shortcut for minimise too 02:45:54 remove Windows and all will be solved 02:46:22 zzo38: http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/1233910418 may help 02:46:27 olsner: Yes, that is one way; but that would require a lot of work and I would have to install everything from the start all at first and so on 02:47:22 nah, none of that is required to just remove it 02:47:59 Well, yes; but if I remove Windows and then do not put any other operating systems, then the computer won't work anymore 02:48:23 ah, it won't help, no solutions there 02:48:56 hmm, maybe not, but at least it will not give you more problems 03:08:23 @time 03:08:24 Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 1 04:08:22 03:14:21 QUICK anybody know how to do an exception to a rewriterule .*? 03:17:47 What does it mean, "How many IO concepts are there in Haskell"? 03:18:08 the point was that it it was a stupid question and so people were laughing at it 03:25:59 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:27:01 -!- cswords has joined. 03:30:21 -!- augur has joined. 03:37:32 -!- MSleep has joined. 03:41:46 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:35:06 HPDF implements some typesetting algorithm, but I should want it to work with DVI as well. 05:06:27 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:48:28 -!- myndzi has joined. 05:59:53 -!- cheater_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 06:00:28 -!- cheater has joined. 06:35:22 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 06:35:32 -!- asiekierka_ has changed nick to asiekierka. 06:49:48 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:52:09 gah, audiophiles: I just observed an argument on proggit where (possibly as a strawman) the argument came up that WAV was better than FLAC because FLAC was digital and WAV stored the uncompressed /analog/ signal 06:52:19 but I think the most absurd statements have been edited out 06:53:33 That is wrong in far too many ways. 06:55:05 I don't know; unlike most such arguments, it doesn't show ignorance of how compression works 06:55:05 faces 06:55:06 and palms 06:55:15 it's a different misconception entirely 06:55:30 well i guess technically anyway 06:55:33 if the wav came from a cd 06:55:48 it stores enough information to reproduce the exact analog signal up to about 44.1khz 06:55:51 then the CD wasn't analog, because CDs are digital 06:56:00 er, 22.05? i sorta forget 06:56:06 and, hmm, are you sure? 06:56:14 there's an interesting theorem about it 06:56:17 you have to take quantization of amplitude into account, not just frequency 06:56:20 one sec, lemme find it 06:56:29 the theorem is only to do with frequency, if you're thinking of the same one as me 06:56:47 which one is that? 06:57:14 nyquist 06:57:22 ah yes, that's what i was looking for 06:57:32 The quantization error of CDs is utterly unnoticable with dithering, though. 06:57:51 At a 44.1 kHz sample rate you’ll be able to store a good 22.05 kHz square wave or very bad waveforms in its neighborhood downwards. 06:58:26 pikhq: indeed, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, which is relevant in arguments about analog losslessness 06:58:27 ion: At a 44.1 kHz sample rate you'll be able to store a 22.05 kHz frequency exactly, modulo quantization. 06:58:39 I'm entirely willing to believe that it's impossible for the human ear to detect 06:59:01 (unless the recording was made on the most sensitive microphone in existence, it /is/ possible for a machine to detect) 06:59:28 i suppose i should have said "approaching exact" heh 06:59:30 been a while since i read about it 06:59:39 but to be exact it would have to be calculated out to infinity or some such 06:59:56 It would actually be exact if your samples were real numbers. 07:00:00 * ais523 vaguely wonders how accurate the most sensitive microphone in existence is 07:00:15 and how accurate the A-to-D, if any, it's attached to is 07:00:15 The *only* inexactness is coming from the use of bound samples. 07:00:43 pikhq: yes, in case someone decides to send a delta function at you or something 07:01:19 yes well, i don't have a firm enough understanding to discuss it, i was only pointing out that even though it's stored digitally, the information is essentially analog ;) 07:01:21 but then so would flac 07:01:40 and obviously this is not to support his argument, just to explain that one might see where he got confused 07:02:07 Anyways. CDDA is about as good at retaining fidelity of the audio as an 8K scan of film would be at retaining the video fidelity. 07:02:20 That is to say, if anyone says they can do better they're probably lying. 07:03:00 sample all the kilohertz 07:03:59 (8K = 4320p) 07:04:45 pikhq: hmm, I'm pretty sure there are screens that can show at 4320p with it still possible to make out the individual pixels 07:04:54 probably not very many, but I think they exist 07:05:14 so it'd be an accurate representation of the film, but perceptably deficient for representing the original scene 07:05:27 that's kind of an incomplete statement 07:05:32 since it rather depends on the physical size of the screen 07:05:46 ais523: Yes, and said screens are probably big enough that you are a mere 3 pixels tall. 07:05:47 myndzi: that's my point, there's no limit to how large you could make the screen in theory 07:05:49 :) 07:05:59 pikhq: they wouldn't have to be /that/ big 07:06:06 I know, I know. 07:06:14 sure, but if we're talking about fidelity, you can't exactly expect "greater than 1:1" :P 07:06:45 But they'd have to be so large you're basically incapable of seeing the whole screen if you can see the individual pixels. 07:07:40 pikhq: agreed 07:07:50 whether you'd see the whole thing or make out pixels would depend on how far you were standing from it 07:08:04 I'm imagining something around the size of a cinema screen would be enough to make out the pixels if you stood close to it 07:08:21 (although obviously your head would block the projector if you tried that on an /actual/ cinema screen, so it'd have to use a different principle 07:08:34 Reverse projection cinema? 07:08:35 :) 07:09:15 yep, that could work, and IIRC actually exists, but is quite wasteful of space 07:09:25 perhaps you could have two audiences, one on each side of the screen 07:10:44 It'd be a pretty bad idea unless you've got a particularly strange theater. 07:11:31 Perhaps if the seating is an actual stadium. 07:24:56 Many, many 3D games were done using less. 07:25:08 I initially interpreted that as referring to less(1) 07:25:21 and thought that that was indeed quite a primitive tool to make a 3D game with 07:26:05 Quiet. 07:26:10 Erm, quite. 07:27:40 can you actually edit things with less, apart from telling it to run vi? 07:27:58 or would it just be a case of repeatedly paging through /dev/random until you found the source you needed? 07:30:57 less doesn't have an insert mode, so. 07:31:16 Yeah, can't edit with it. 07:32:54 Unless some smartass does ln -s vi /bin/less 07:34:47 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:38:22 I have been told that LP record is better quality than CD and computer and audio tape and so on, but only the first time it is played. After that, it degrades. 07:39:38 They like to tell you that. 07:39:51 A CD has more dynamic range. 07:40:06 (not that it matters much in this age of 1 dB dynamic range) 07:43:16 Basically the only argument in favor of vinyl is that it may have pleasant artifacts. 07:46:32 The other argument in favor of vinyl is the simplicity of a record player; no computer is required to decode anything. 07:47:14 Not an argument in favor of the format's *quality*, but certainly an argument in favor of its use in certain contexts. 07:47:50 -!- aloril has joined. 07:48:09 Yes, I agree; the argument I mention has nothing to do with quality. 07:49:44 Before on this channel, I have discussed annotation monads a bit; but now I think of coannotation comonads as well. 07:53:44 Which makes Maybe to be the annotation monad of () and it makes non-empty list comonad to be the coannotation comonad of [()] 07:54:37 (I think) 07:59:14 Re blocking the screen, there are also some very acute-angle projectors nowadays. Can't seem to find the right Google keywords, but there was an article; it was something ridiculous like 15 degrees or less. Probably not for cinema resolutions, though, since the intended use case was more like meetings and whatever. (Plus probably some loss in image quality due to the large amount of ... 07:59:20 ... perspective correction.) 08:02:32 -!- azaq23 has joined. 08:02:55 fizzie: I've seen some acute-angle projectors that do a bunch of perspective correction, they're placed on the top of whiteboards, maybe about 30cm or so out 08:03:06 but I'm not quite sure if they're quite /that/ acute 08:03:25 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:07:23 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 08:10:34 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:19:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:19:51 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Quit: brb). 08:20:12 -!- MoALTz has joined. 08:32:04 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:42:14 -!- itidus20 has joined. 08:45:36 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:58:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:19:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:20:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:22:37 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:32:40 aimake is no longer vaporware! <-- so does that mean we can soon expect fe *hit by anvil falling through portal from future* 09:32:59 no, feather probably can't be written in a week 09:42:19 `addquote Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link? elliott: I'll check it for you yes ais523: thanks, I'll click it then 09:42:28 836) Sgeo: will i regret clicking that link? elliott: I'll check it for you yes ais523: thanks, I'll click it then 09:43:10 oerjan: it actually makes sense in context, too, he explained 09:43:27 but funnier without, i assume 09:46:44 why are these people allowed on my internet <-- to keep them out of the streets. 09:47:02 imagine the danger they would be in traffic. 09:48:50 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:53:02 Sgeo: why the fuck are you reading 3-year-old discussions on reddit <-- r/worstofreddithistory. you know it has to exist... 09:56:13 Sgeo: yes, cardinalities of the reals and of infinite strings of elements drawn from a finite alphabet are both aleph-one <-- /me swats ais523 for assuming the continuum hypothesis -----### 09:56:53 oerjan: I don't think that assumes the continuum hypothesis, aleph-one's defined as the cardinality of reals even if you assume there's more than one smaller infinity 09:57:09 no it is not. 09:58:14 aleph-one is defined as the smallest (well-orderable) cardinality larger than aleph-zero. it being == cardinality of reals is _precisely_ the continuum hypothesis. 09:58:59 there are however some popular math books which get that wrong. 09:59:43 beth-one, otoh, is equal to the cardinality of reals, being defined as 2^beth_zero = 2^aleph_zero. 10:03:34 Ohhhh, mk is that guy who just wanted to learn monads, not Haskell. <-- "i just want to read shakespeare in the original, not learn english!" 10:04:07 (note: no guarantee about appropriateness of analogy) 10:06:45 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:12:11 so I have to do something very serious and bureaucratic instead <-- darn, so no deadfish feature? :( 10:15:06 03:17:47: What does it mean, "How many IO concepts are there in Haskell"? 10:15:10 03:18:08: the point was that it it was a stupid question and so people were laughing at it 10:16:03 it doesn't sound stupid if you've heard about the lazy input/monads/iteratees/conduits/pipes mess 10:17:02 oh and there's frp, several variants. 10:17:54 and if you mix in the String/Bytestring/lazy Bytestring/Text/lazy Text/vector mess as well... 10:19:02 * oerjan fortunately does things so trivial he can just stay at the lazy String input level 10:19:13 haskelly trivial, that is. 10:19:25 -!- cheater has joined. 10:19:59 which otoh means i haven't really learned most of the others 10:20:09 *-really 10:21:08 -!- alvur has joined. 10:22:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 10:22:06 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*alvur@95.57.97.*. 10:22:06 -!- oerjan has kicked alvur alvur. 10:22:26 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 10:22:58 darn i forgot to put in the ban evasion reason 10:33:18 -!- nortti has joined. 10:47:49 does the ban never expire? 10:47:58 who knows, maybe he's gone to therapy or something 10:50:30 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:53:52 -!- cheater has joined. 10:57:02 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:57:41 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:14:51 oklopol: not if he keeps evading it 11:15:40 well tru 11:47:35 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:48:05 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:50:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 11:50:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:53:21 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:53:40 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:03:22 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:03:47 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:22:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:25:04 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 12:25:09 -!- Deewiant has joined. 12:34:38 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:35:06 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:35:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 12:35:51 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:36:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 13:16:34 -!- azaq23 has joined. 13:17:36 ? 13:17:38 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 13:17:49 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:17:58 -!- azaq23 has joined. 13:18:10 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:20:26 azaq23: problems with irc client? 13:37:27 nortti: I had an issue with the gnome desktop environment (couldn't switch between windows anymore, or click on anything which was outside of the interface of the application I had at the time in the 13:37:27 foreground), which forced me to restart it a few times, and with it the irc client I'm using. I suspect it's somehow connected to a jammed key on my touchpad 13:39:01 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:44:11 -!- cheater has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:54:40 -!- elliott has joined. 13:56:14 happy mailman mailing list membership reminders day 13:59:36 "But now I want to sidetrack into some of Yesod's underlying philosophy, and demonstrate its incompatibility with cabal. Many people know that Yesod is Hebrew for "Foundation." What you may not realize is that it's also a term from Jewish mysticism. Jewish mysticism, also known as Kaballah, includes the concepts of receiving energy from a source." 14:00:54 happy mailman mailing list membership reminders day <-- it's april 1, and /that's/ the best you can say? 14:02:39 ais523: i don't participate in internet jackass day, I just observe from the sidelines 14:02:46 this is brilliant: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100527.html 14:02:57 this is brillianter: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100533.html (only funny if you read the first one first) 14:03:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:03:48 is the first one a serious proposal with intentionally silly language, or just entirely silly? 14:03:52 I'm too tired to tell them apart 14:03:54 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:04:57 ais523: it's more or less complete nonsense 14:05:35 the reply is the sort of thing I'd make, it's a perfectly sensible reply to the post whether it's entirely joke or entirely serious you don't understand or serious disguised as joke 14:05:49 ais523: it proposes using /youtube URLs/ as identifiers 14:05:55 taking it seriously is unforgivable 14:05:58 yes, I noticed that in a footnote 14:06:03 no, an appendix 14:06:25 I was about to say that the best parts were footnote 4 and appendix A, but then I realised that footnotes 1-1b and all the other appendices were good too 14:06:36 oh, "However, I can only get away with my proof using Scott-free semantics." is the other best bit 14:08:51 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 14:16:31 -!- derdon has joined. 14:17:03 -!- MoALTz has joined. 14:20:22 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 14:22:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:23:36 -!- cheater has joined. 14:24:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:29:13 -!- nortti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:31:02 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 14:31:08 APRIL FEUELZ!!!112156123786127836123 14:31:13 (you might need to ctrl+f5 it) 14:31:41 you can do that with CSS? 14:31:57 yep 14:31:58 heh, and it even affects edit pages 14:32:07 yes, which made it quite hard to fix a css error i made the first time 14:32:16 buttons look really weird upside-down 14:32:28 I'm using useskin=monobook to read the code ;) 14:33:04 upside-down english looks kinda like ipa 14:33:16 I wonder how long it would take for that to be reverted if someone did it on Wikipedia 14:33:19 I'm guessing between 1 and 3 minutes 14:33:38 and then five years of arbitration cases 14:33:49 I suppose I should remove this now 14:33:57 in case anyone actually wants to read the wiki 14:34:07 heh, OK ;) 14:35:26 oh, I have a better idea 14:36:30 ais523: try now 14:37:16 more usable, indeed 14:37:26 and potentially even useful for non-English languages 14:37:32 I think I'll leave it like this for a day 14:37:37 indeed, it reminds me of the hebrew wikipedia 14:37:47 (note: technically this isn't an april fool's, just me fucking with things, since it's after 12pm) 14:38:08 it's before 12pm in some places! 14:38:13 i like how the top vector bar gets confused and slides the view history link in if you have JS enabled 14:39:37 -!- nortti has joined. 14:40:13 ais523: I don't suppose there is any easy way to fix the caching of vector.css 14:40:15 rather ruins it 14:40:46 elliott: I'm reasonably sure there's a configuration variable /somewhere/ which invalidates everyone's caches when you bump it 14:40:52 but I never dealt with that bit of things 14:40:57 the devs could be made to bump it in emergencies 14:41:13 (it uses the old junk query parameter trick) 14:43:49 oh well 14:43:55 nortti: does http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page look normal to you? 14:44:01 maybe it's just because i was already on the site that it didn't reload or something 14:45:06 "1997 – Marriage in the Netherlands became more samey." -- come on WIkipedia, you can do better than this 14:45:49 elliott: oh, fun fact, you know how Wikipedia's main page is based on date templates? 14:45:57 well, they don't update automatically, someone has to purge the page 14:46:03 and today: it was me who did the purge :) 14:46:18 has anyone ever forgotten to? 14:47:10 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 14:47:13 well, it'd require /everyone/ to 14:47:18 especially as it can be done while not logged in 14:47:34 (although there's a clickthrough for that, to stop scrapers doing it unintentionally) 14:47:36 if only purges were logged, so people could race and use it to start drama 14:47:41 haha 14:50:58 elliott: pretty funny text effect 14:51:18 oh, so it does work without force-reloading? 14:51:20 interesting 14:51:47 OK, that's my minimum level of contribution for April 1st done 14:52:11 ais523: what's slashdot's? 14:52:27 "NASCAR is supporting Google's new racing division based on autonomous vehicle technology." heh 14:57:22 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:57:53 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:59:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 15:00:23 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]). 15:02:23 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:02:32 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Welcome to the International Hub for Esotericism and the Occult | Bringing computer systems from the astral plane since 1692! | Need some guidance on spirit projection? Elliott is the local expert, go to him first. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 15:05:08 gah, it would have been an actually good gag to rewrite the main page to be about esoterica 15:05:12 probably too late now 15:07:13 @time RocketJSquirrel 15:07:14 Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Sun Apr 1 11:06:45 15:07:23 who's on the other side of america to RocketJSquirrel? 15:07:30 @time shachaf 15:07:33 Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 08:07:03 2012 15:07:36 close enough 15:09:42 @time ais523 15:09:43 Local time for ais523 is Sun Apr 1 16:09:15 2012 15:09:48 thanks 15:10:33 It's April 1 pretty well everywhere that matters. 15:11:07 i wanted to know how much april 1st there was left tho 15:11:09 @time fizzie 15:11:11 Local time for fizzie is Sun Apr 1 18:10:41 2012 15:11:12 @time clog 15:11:12 Local time for clog is Sun Apr 1 08:11:05 2012 15:11:17 clog responds to TIME? 15:11:30 @time Phantom_Hoover 15:11:31 Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Sun Apr 01 16:11:00 15:11:32 @time Patashu 15:11:33 Local time for Patashu is Mon Apr 02 01:11:05 2012 15:11:36 AHA 15:11:40 BURN THE WITCH 15:12:18 :o 15:12:20 how did it knooow 15:12:26 I must return to my own timeline now 15:12:58 Your client betrayed you. 15:16:44 -!- nortti has joined. 15:22:47 `? welcome 15:22:54 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 15:23:39 `run echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/' >wisdom/welcome 15:23:43 No output. 15:23:55 hth hand 15:24:09 ah, found it 15:24:19 I was going to ask how lambdabot knew my timezone, but there was obivously a ctcp somewhere 15:24:20 found what? 15:24:23 heh 15:24:24 CTCP TIME 15:24:30 and I was looking for which channel it had been reported in 15:24:42 back, btw 15:25:00 `WELCOME HELPLESS_NEWBIE 15:25:03 HELPLESS_NEWBIE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/ 15:25:11 that'll make them feel welcome 15:25:42 unfortunately, nobody actually comes in here most days 15:25:45 huh? Esolangs front page is normal again 15:26:43 does demonicpedia actually exist? 15:26:46 `welcome test 15:26:47 ais523: yes 15:26:49 test: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/ 15:26:52 nortti: is it? 15:26:54 hmm 15:26:55 try ctrl+f5 or such 15:26:57 I don't like thatchange 15:27:03 although it's unlikely to matter 15:27:05 nortti: probably caching 15:27:53 ellitt: I cleared my cache 15:29:05 nortti: same browser? 15:29:36 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:31:09 elliott: I have tried it with Camino 2.1 (cleared cache) and links2 and both seem normal 15:31:58 Which browser did you see the effect in first time? 15:32:09 I suspect Camino is just too old to understand the CSS. 15:33:03 olsner: Silly Opera user ping 15:34:44 me? I'm not silly! 15:34:47 elliott: The real trick would have been to make the wiki not quite about esotericism, but esoLANGS, where eso means esotericism :) 15:34:54 elliott: I saw it with TenFourFox. Camino is based on Gecko 1.9.2 by the way 15:35:30 nortti: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/transform#Browser_compatibility Looks like it should work, then 15:35:38 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 15:35:45 olsner: What's esolangs.org look like to you 15:35:52 elliott: looks entirely normal 15:36:14 olsner: Force-reload it? (so the CSS reloads) 15:36:19 "Opera: Clear the cache in Tools → Preferences" 15:36:22 lol Opera sux 15:36:26 It looks like april fool 15:36:39 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:36:39 Slereah_: No, April Fool's ends at 12 pm. 15:36:51 Slereah_: This is just me deciding to fuck the wiki up. 15:37:00 I am free of all cultural expectations. 15:37:47 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 15:37:58 elliott: actually I'm using the fool CSS, it's just wrong 15:38:16 elliott : You so are culturally expected 15:38:17 You tool 15:38:18 Invalid value for property: -o-transform 15:38:24 olsner: opera v.? 15:38:40 11.62 15:38:52 :/ 15:39:00 mdn sez 10.5 up work with -o- 15:39:01 | 15:39:01 >\ 15:39:04 lol 15:39:05 olsner: does it recognise the "transform"? 15:39:08 even if it doesn't recognise the -o-transform 15:40:46 looks like it's spelled rotate in -o-transform 15:41:34 olsner: eh? 15:41:35 according to http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto24/css/transforms/ anyway 15:41:50 oh, they don't support rotateY? 15:42:16 oh! apparently neither does mozilla 15:42:19 uh bu 15:42:19 t 15:42:21 it works in ff, so 15:42:27 confused 15:42:35 maybe ff picks up the webkit transform instead 15:42:49 oh, but 15:42:50 "matrix(, , , , , ) 15:42:50 Specifies a 2D transformation in the form of a transformation matrix of six values. matrix(a,b,c,d,e,f) is equivalent to applying the transformation matrix [a b c d e f]." 15:43:02 olsner: patches welcome, i'm too lazy to work out the matrix 15:43:06 it's sunday, day of rest 15:43:08 day of doing nothing 15:47:04 I'm not quite sure what the transform is supposed to do though... is that rotateY thing the same as scaleX(-1)? 15:47:15 because that works with -o-transform 15:48:02 and yeah, opera doesn't do 3D transforms (yet?), only the 2D transforms 15:48:34 olsner: it's meant to flip the page horizontally 15:48:43 and it's not 3d 15:49:04 rotating around the Y axis means rotating it in 3d? 15:49:35 well, you could say that... or it's just subtracting the coordinate from the width 15:49:43 it's not the "3d transform" stuff 15:50:00 yes, scaleX(-1) does it, thanks 15:50:00 rotateY is a 3d transform 15:50:33 ais523: olsner: nortti: try now 15:52:24 elliott: it works now 15:53:36 Yessssssssss 15:53:39 Even in links? :P 15:54:03 @time 15:54:04 Local time for elliott is Sun Apr 1 16:54:02 15:54:26 hmm, I'll leave my wiki settings at UTC 15:55:04 elliott: contents on the page are not flipped, but navigational links are 15:56:03 What... in *links*? 15:57:55 elliott: I thought you meand links in the page 15:58:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:58:10 Oh :D 15:58:16 Yeah, the content is meant to be unflipped. 15:58:26 I would be very impressed if links flipped the text :P 15:58:54 elliott: I tried it and it didn't 16:05:33 -!- cheater has joined. 16:13:13 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 16:13:43 ais523: help, I'm getting used to the new Esolang layout already 16:14:01 elliott: abort, ignore, retry, fail? 16:14:22 what was the difference between abort and fail, anyway 16:14:51 elliott: If I remember corretly fail stopped the running program 16:19:30 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/67586 16:20:34 Deewiant: Okay, that makes sense 16:20:42 So retry and fail are the only sane ones 16:23:32 elliott: actually, abort stopped the running program; fail caused the libc or equivalent to return a failure code 16:23:45 ignore caused it to return a success code, and retry is obvious 16:24:39 ais523: Yes, that's what Deewiant's link said. 16:24:58 oh, that was from memory, I didn't follow the link 16:25:00 but I may as well 16:25:26 "This article applies to a different operating system than the one you are using. Article content that may not be relevant to you is disabled." 16:25:35 you have to love Microsoft Support :) 16:26:00 hmm, does Did You Know? usually change a billion times per day? 16:26:05 Wikipedia's appears to be... somewhat in flux 16:26:16 it normally gets updated five or six times a day 16:26:23 oh, really? 16:26:30 that's a bit fast 16:27:43 the intent is to put every new article that it's at all possible to write a decent hook for on there 16:29:26 gah, what is wrong with this template? 16:29:34 oh, hmm 16:32:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Approximately_64,695_Pounds_of_Shark_Fins 16:32:22 ais523: OK, this is the best article title on Wikipedia, no question 16:33:03 there's a huge debate about what to do about april 1's "on this day" 16:33:11 because of legitimate events happening on april 1 never getting a chance 16:33:19 I think the conclusion was to list the events but with silly descriptions 16:33:32 please! please, no discussion that isn't about that perfect title 16:34:33 you should read the article attached to it, the event is vaguely ridiculous too 16:54:22 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:09:28 This crazy idea just came to my mind: Wait until all support on Windows XP has ended and then buy rights to MS-DOS source code from microsoft and after that relase it under wtfpl 17:10:35 what 17:11:53 wait until support of xp has ended (xp still uses MS-DOS in its boot floppy) and after that buy MS-DOS from microsoft 17:12:10 i'm not sure why you think it would be for sale 17:12:49 did you notice this: "This crazy idea" 17:13:26 ok 17:23:38 -!- cheater has joined. 17:24:16 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:34:04 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:34:12 Hello! 17:34:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:35:21 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:35:37 I felt like writing a BF Joust interpreter/genetic creator in Haskell. 17:36:04 I've got 82 lines, including 10 imported modules and 2 language extensions that do absolutely nothing 17:36:08 Genetic BF Joust has gone well approximately 0 times. 17:37:29 `? esoteric 17:37:30 but only approximately! 17:37:40 This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net. 17:40:34 BF Joust programs written by Taneb have gone well approximately 0 times 17:41:00 `WELCOME TANEB 17:41:05 TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/ 17:41:11 HAVE YOU SEEN THE WIKI TODAY, BY THE WAY? 17:41:21 YES 17:41:37 IT TOOK ME A SECOND TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON 17:44:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:44:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:59:31 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 17:59:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 17:59:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:03:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:04:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:04:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:08:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:28:04 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:29:25 Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.0.0 just came out! 18:29:28 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/261849837d0d8e42 18:29:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:29:38 Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.1.0 just came out! 18:29:39 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/ade3da9173a7cc2a 18:29:44 Hey Phantom_Hoover! NetHack 4.2.0 just came out! 18:29:45 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/cb0da1bf9d2c0ba1 18:30:38 oh my god 18:30:43 nethack 18:30:45 does nethack 18:30:48 still have updates 18:30:53 IT DOES NOW 18:31:09 * Core game engine code has completely rewritten [4] 18:31:13 OH THANK GOD 18:34:20 -!- augur has joined. 18:34:41 elliott: HEY I GOT THIS NEW SPIRIT PROJECTOR BUT IT WON'T WORK WITH WINDOWS XP D: 18:34:56 `WELCOME OERJAN 18:34:59 OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/ 18:35:03 IT'S ALL IN THE WIKI 18:35:04 YAY 18:35:18 HAVE YOU SEEN THE WIKI TODAY, BY THE WAY 18:35:19 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:35:19 THE OTHER ONE I MEAN 18:35:23 THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERIC 18:35:26 THAT PEOPLE KEEP COMING IN HERE FOR 18:35:29 SOME PROGRAMMING NONSENSE 18:36:01 NOT SINCE LAST I WAS HERE, WHEN IT LOOKED DISAPPOINTINGLY NORMAL 18:36:42 YES I FIXED THAT 18:36:44 PERMANENTLY 18:36:59 ERM YOU MIGHT NEED A NEWER IE VERSION THAN YOU HAVE NOT SURE 18:37:12 oh. 18:37:30 Phantom_Hoover: ps april fooles 18:37:35 oerjan: well does it still look normal 18:38:05 yes, it does. 18:38:35 oerjan: try Ctrl-F5 18:39:20 still no difference 18:39:48 ie version? 18:40:29 ie 8 18:40:49 (which afaik is the latest which works with xp, btw) 18:41:12 ok, gimme a minute 18:41:27 no peeking until i fix :p 18:42:53 oerjan: ok try ctrl+f5 now 18:43:43 wait i think i messed it up 18:44:13 oerjan: try now 18:44:34 there is at least a difference now ... the background color is changed and the scrollbar doesn't work :P 18:44:45 or pgdn 18:44:52 huh, what happens to the background? 18:45:16 same as the sidebar now 18:45:26 hmm 18:45:28 a screenshot, please? 18:45:37 I'm going by MS' documentation, which might be wrong 18:45:59 * elliott installs IE in Wine to test it himself 18:45:59 -!- MoALTz has joined. 18:46:31 elliott: ies4linux? 18:46:47 ais523: unmaintained IIRC 18:46:54 I think winetricks can do it 18:47:50 oerjan: a screenshot would still be useful, though 18:48:30 thank you, omploader for today's front page (nsfw) 18:49:05 http://ompldr.org/vZDg0bg/screenshot.PNG 18:49:45 i think it just lists the most-accessed files 18:49:55 oerjan: thanks 18:49:56 ...i guess. 18:50:23 nsfw? 18:50:30 not safe for work 18:50:33 very much so 18:50:36 am i missing midget porn somewher 18:50:38 e in the pic 18:50:42 hmmm 18:50:56 oerjan: it looks ok in my wine-installed ie8, but i suspect it might be using gecko 18:51:01 it's porn indeed, i couldn't tell if it was midgets. 18:51:20 let me try ies4linux 18:51:45 oh, ies4linux only goes up to 5 18:51:46 6 18:51:58 and doesn't work with latest wine 18:52:44 oerjan: (i can disable it for now if you want to browse the wiki) 18:52:58 oklofok: oh i wasn't linking to the porn, that's on ompldr's front page 18:53:28 oerjan keeps all his midget porn to himself 18:53:33 okay no midgets there 18:53:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:53:59 i've seen enough naked midgets to know immediately 18:54:05 huh list of ideas has a scrollbar but only allows a part of the article :P 18:54:20 oklofok, watcher of naked midgets 18:54:21 elliott: Can you tell me how to spirit project a computer? 18:54:23 i've removed it temporarily, lemme fix this 18:54:34 `WELCOME ZZO38 18:54:37 ZZO38: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERICISM AND THE OCCULT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://WWW.DEMONICPEDIA.COM/ 18:54:39 zzo38: This is a very frequently asked question, check our wiki for more information! 18:56:54 It mentions nothing about how to spirit project a computer. (Searching for the term "computer" leads to no results) 18:57:04 elliott: heh are you trying to make it mirrored? the yafgc webcomic did that today too (although only to the comic itself and the title) 18:57:17 oerjan: I said no peeking >:( 18:57:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:57:58 elliott: erm ok. i had already clicked on the history diff so it was open in a tab 18:58:14 That counts as peeking :P 18:58:20 OKAY 18:58:33 * elliott tries IE7 instead 18:59:13 well that failed 19:00:08 ais523: hey, do you have any IE? 19:00:19 I have IE6, but don't use it while connected to the internet 19:01:08 oerjan: You know, Chrome and Firefox are pretty nice... 19:01:19 YOU DON'T SAY 19:03:11 oerjan: ok could you try now (this is just a test version to see what happens) 19:04:02 background still different, but scrollbar works now :P 19:04:09 oerjan: and now? 19:04:25 no difference 19:04:46 oh hm 19:05:12 try now 19:05:28 *yawn* 19:05:53 what 19:05:58 no difference 19:06:05 hey it's not my fault IE is weird 19:07:02 hey it doesn't have to be IE's fault. maybe it interprets _several_ of those transforms i shouldn't peek at, and there are an even number so they cancel out 19:07:14 * oerjan trusting 19:09:54 oerjan: ok try *now* 19:10:47 a true master of indistinguishible subtlety 19:10:51 *a 19:11:26 oh hm 19:11:28 fine, i give up. your browser is completely broken. it obeys neither the specification, nor its own documentation 19:11:36 i checked another page, the language list. 19:11:44 you *were* ctrl+f5ing all this time, right? 19:11:55 yes, i think so. 19:12:10 ok what does the language list look like 19:12:21 anyway, the page looks _almost_ normal, except for the small detail that the title is at the bottom, upside down. 19:12:46 wtf. 19:12:54 screenshot? 19:12:58 since the main page has no title, i didn't notice it there :P 19:13:03 (and is there a space where the title should be at the top?) 19:13:25 yes there is 19:14:15 yeah, screenshot pls :P 19:14:20 this is weird 19:17:05 http://imgur.com/tQIHz 19:18:27 well 19:18:28 that's impressive 19:20:05 oerjan: ok i just changed the effect to something else for IE < 9. 19:20:09 maybe *that* will work. 19:22:13 does it? :P 19:23:06 nothing noticeable 19:23:36 oh well. 19:23:49 guess you'll just have to live without any fancy tricks 19:23:54 * oerjan guesses him using IE 8 is the universe's april fool's joke on elliott 19:24:36 -!- nortti_ has joined. 19:26:20 you're the one suffering 19:28:27 always. 19:31:10 i still prefer ie over firefox, although i have to admit chrome is the nicest invention in the world. because you can drag and drop tabs. 19:31:41 (opera has had drag-and-drop tabs since like forever) 19:31:59 oklofok: You can do that on firefox 19:32:03 well i haven't tried it 19:32:06 okay 19:32:17 so i guess if i tried everything now, ie would finally lose 19:32:30 olsner: opera users are so cute 19:32:31 (except for the fact it's much more stable than firefox in my experience) 19:32:33 elliott: :) 19:32:42 olsner: enjoy ur market share 19:33:06 oklofok: when did you try firefox 19:33:40 nortti: a couple of years ago 19:34:09 i used to use ie until it did something annoying, and then switched to firefox until it did something annoying 19:34:20 and then back to ie 19:34:39 oklofok: Try it again. Firefox 3.* was terrible 19:34:43 but it usually took less than a day for firefox to do something stupid so finally i stopped using it 19:35:14 then at some point i tried chrome but on my laptop, all of its options windows were too big for my screen, and i couldn't close them 19:35:48 but i have a big screen now, and chrome hasn't done anything annoying since i bought this computer 19:35:51 firefox 2 was terrible too, as far as memory usage/stability goes. 19:35:52 so for over half a year 19:36:22 oklofok: funny, since chrome doesn't actually use pref windows any more 19:37:01 why is that funny? 19:37:26 and obviously i know since it's the only browser i use 19:37:41 well, it's funny if you bought the new computer to run chrome 19:37:43 elliott: I had no problem with it. I actually maintained a version of Iceweasel 2 up to 2011 and then I switched to Iceweasel 4 19:37:45 you haven't said otherwise so i'll assume you did 19:37:55 :D 19:38:39 yeah i paid 2000 euros for a computer so i could try a browser that did something extremely annoying during the first minute i tried it. 19:38:54 i'm just that oklo. 19:39:47 oklofok: You can get computer that can run Chrome for 10€ 19:40:25 so just to make things clear, i was prefectly happy with ie, i bought this computer _for no reason_. 19:40:44 and i decided to try chrome again for lulz. but turned out it was awesome. 19:40:57 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:41:46 bet it runs minecraft better than your older one 19:42:53 it does 19:43:07 when i tried minecraft i was like what the fuck I CAN SEE MOUNTAINS 19:43:17 PHOTO FUCKING REALISM 19:43:43 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-ordlist/0.4.5/doc/html/Data-List-Ordered.html oh, there's a package for this! 19:43:52 and i can open like *two* minesweepers at once 19:44:35 have you already tried the 8 bit version of google maps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF8BsdGaK3c 19:44:35 My DVI typesetting stuff in Haskell seem to do glue setting wrong. Is findBreaks wrong? findBreaks True f (h : t) | isJust (castNode h :: Maybe GlueNode) = ((\(x, y, z) -> (succ x, addGlue y (fst $ f h), z)) <$> findBreaks (isNodeDiscardable h) f t); findBreaks b f (h : t) = maybe id (\x -> ((0, fixedGlue 0, x) :)) (snd $ f h) ((\(x, y, z) -> (succ x, addGlue y (fst $ f h), z)) <$> findBreaks (isNodeDiscardable h) f t); 19:45:09 i don't know 19:46:26 my browser history goes something like this: IE6 -> Firefox 2 -> Firefox 3 -> Firebird -> K-Meleon -> Iceweasel 2 with patches -> Konqueror, Iceweasel 2 with patches, Links2 -> Iceweasel 4, Links2 -> TenFourFox 5-11, Camino, Links2 19:48:08 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: nortti_). 19:48:12 pffft, I used Firefox before you! 19:49:54 * oerjan used NCSA Mosaic so there 19:51:24 Well, fuck you, I used WorldWideWeb. 19:51:32 Or at least I tried to. Once. 19:51:53 okay. 19:52:15 i used ie before it was cool 19:52:17 on my windows 3.11 19:53:16 the first web browser i used was either ie 5.something or ie 6. 19:53:31 Does this findBreaks looks wrong? 19:53:43 ie6 is the worst browser ever 19:54:29 at least you need all kind of hacks to make your site support it 19:55:05 hagb4rd: If you are just using simple HTML stuff it should be support in anything 19:55:06 -!- Tiktalik has changed nick to Urist_McTiktalik. 19:55:12 hagb4rd: Please. You've clearly never seen IE 5. 19:55:15 Or Netscape 4. 19:55:28 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 19:55:28 Urist_McTiktalik: DORF 19:55:52 * Urist_McTiktalik DORF 19:56:11 Very good. 19:56:49 great zzo38.. that really relieves me 19:57:35 who Urist_McTiktalik 19:58:00 * Urist_McTiktalik DORF 19:58:02 Don't tell me you've made a DF-IRC bridge 19:58:03 That's all you need to know. 19:58:10 Sgeo: What 19:58:32 * Sgeo is aware that that doens't make much sense 19:58:41 When did you appear here, anyway? I keep seeing you join and leave and I'm all "who's this Tiktalik guy". 19:58:44 Although... a bot that tells IRC stuff that happens in a game 19:59:45 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 19:59:45 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:59:46 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 19:59:58 elliott, I'm just Tiktalik 20:00:02 the enigmatic person who hardly talks 20:00:10 damn it..my power supply is messed up 20:00:15 Urist_McTiktalik: Are you... a ghost? 20:01:04 eliott: afaik netscape4 supports the the wc3 conventions better than ie6 20:01:48 hagb4rd: You have *clearly* never used Netscape 4. 20:02:19 i can't remember.. maybe 15 years ago 20:02:46 i don't know which version it was 20:03:51 I had a book, "DHTML for Dummies" 20:05:16 Talked about IE4 and Netscape 4 20:05:17 iirc 20:06:20 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:06:27 elliott: he's a demonic fishlike creature 20:06:29 Hello 20:08:25 My BF Joust thing is now 213 lines 20:09:11 No, findBreaks is correct; that is not the reason for the wrong glue setting. 20:09:29 The looping code is unfinished, and it just executes 1 step and says it's a tie at the moment 20:09:34 But it's getting there 20:18:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:24:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:33:24 are you familiar with stenography techniques? i can't find the hidden text in this picture :( https://www.wechall.net/challenge/training/stegano/caterpillar/caterpillar.png 20:34:39 though the author pretends it to be an easy one.. now i feel really stupid 20:35:08 -!- mtve has joined. 20:35:29 * oerjan thinks he hasn't seen mtve in a while 20:36:33 hagb4rd: today's special challenge, or something? 20:36:43 yes indeed 20:36:48 thought so. 20:38:16 * oerjan knows little about steganography but ihrc things are sometimes hidden in the lower bits 20:40:14 Sgeo: ping 20:40:15 i've tried to cut off the last 2 bits in each pixel already..without success 20:40:38 but today being today, there might not even be a hidden message 20:40:43 olsner: shhh 20:42:07 oh and there's metadata, maybe 20:42:35 elliott, pong 20:42:42 elliott: No comment. 20:42:55 okay.. i will try harder. thanks so far :> 20:43:03 Sgeo: You are subscribed to spoon-*, right? 20:43:09 I .. believe so 20:43:28 At least, I remember subscribing to and participating in B stuff, and don't remember unsubscribing 20:43:29 Urist_McTiktalik: OUT, FOUL DEMONIAN CREATURE 20:43:31 Sgeo: I would appreciate it if you could reply to my two recent determinations (to s-b) saying you agree with them, thanks! 20:43:50 ("I agree with both of ehird's pending determinations." in a message on its own would work fine.) 20:43:55 OK! I got the gloe setting fixed by now. (The mistake was that the datatypes I used were not large enough to store the intermediate results) 20:44:07 Hmm, I assume this is a scam of some sort 20:44:14 Sgeo: Nope. 20:44:23 oerjan: I'm not a ghost. >_> 20:44:32 Heck I'm not even sure what here is 20:44:42 `welcome Urist_McTiktalik 20:44:45 Urist_McTiktalik: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/ 20:44:46 HOPE THIS HELPS 20:44:57 If you really don't know what this place is and want a serious answer, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 20:45:39 elliott: Okay, so it is actually what I thought it was. I was a bit confused >_> 20:46:20 And the demonicpedia does not even tell you how to spirit project a computer anyways (I doubt anyone on this channel knows about that kind of stuff). 20:46:27 Urist_McTiktalik: NO YOU ARE A FOUL FISH CREATURE FROM THE DEMONIAN 20:46:29 well thats a good point to start Urist_McTiktalik 20:48:05 anyway, yeah 20:48:14 i'm a dude who likes esoteric programming languages 20:48:32 Urist_McTiktalik: Good, because we have a lot of those. 21:03:43 -!- augur has joined. 21:04:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:17:05 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:28:41 hi Taneb 21:30:15 Hello 21:30:28 Had things on my mind, sorry 21:30:46 Although my BF Joust genetic thingy is nearing completion! 21:30:51 It needs a little tweaking, though 21:31:01 The best program it's came up with is "+" 21:31:32 -!- MSleep has joined. 21:31:38 -!- augur has joined. 21:35:35 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:42:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:54:22 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 22:00:27 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 22:00:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:00:28 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 22:02:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:17:09 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 22:19:02 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:19:27 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 22:19:52 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:19:53 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius. 22:28:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 22:30:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:34:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:34:55 PH is leaving for Canada. 22:35:06 @tell Phantom_Hoover Hope you're having fun in Mexico! 22:35:06 Consider it noted. 22:41:41 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:54:45 Which province? 23:00:24 zzo38: Chile. 23:09:59 @time 23:10:00 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 00:09:57 23:11:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Sorry, no more ink in the computer). 23:58:52 -!- augur has joined. 2012-04-02: 00:01:46 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 00:01:46 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:01:47 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 00:09:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:17:35 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 00:20:07 -!- Frooxius__ has joined. 00:20:33 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:20:48 -!- Frooxius__ has changed nick to Frooxius. 00:21:10 -!- zbrown has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:23:59 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:28:29 -!- MDude has joined. 00:29:11 -!- zbrown has joined. 00:31:10 http://techlaze.com/2012/03/richard-stallman-to-launch-his-own-fashion-line/ 00:31:45 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:54:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:26:01 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 01:26:17 -!- Frooxius has joined. 01:29:22 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:38:10 elliott: I think it may be time to de-1st the site ;) 01:42:27 -!- augur has joined. 01:43:12 @time RocketJSquirrel 01:43:13 Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Sun Apr 1 21:42:41 01:43:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:43:55 Lemme know when it's April 2nd on Baker Island. 01:44:54 -!- augur has joined. 01:55:38 RocketJSquirrel: I can revert it if you really want me to :P 01:56:58 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:59:28 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:01:02 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 02:01:20 On sociological questions: 02:01:24 as a sociological question: anyone else here observe the okcupid security vulnerability these weekend? 02:01:25 er, you're in #haskell 02:01:25 it was sociological question 02:01:25 nevermind 02:01:28 * carter has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 02:04:44 @time shachaf 02:04:45 Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 19:04:15 2012 02:04:51 RocketJSquirrel: Is it April 2 ANYWHERE? 02:06:50 RocketJSquirrel: 'Tis done 02:08:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:12:40 -!- augur has joined. 02:20:11 if you feel to fuel your hatred for mankind, you should watch 'black mirror', a dark dystopia (trilogy) by charlie brooks.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQKYB262H8E ..well done stuff 02:20:59 I, too, fuel my hatred for humankind by watching completely fictional works. 02:21:43 seriously.. it mirrors some dark sides of human nature 02:22:19 The French subtitles really add a touch of class. 02:28:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:32:05 elliott: HI 02:32:43 elliott: You know what this channel doesn't have enough of? 02:32:51 The answer is sociological questions. 02:33:29 No, that is another question. 02:38:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:41:06 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:41:37 -!- augur has joined. 02:42:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:33 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:01:24 monqy, UPDATE 03:01:37 elliott, I forgot are you still on update list? 03:01:48 Although lately I haven't really been doing it :/ 03:02:04 elliott is on the update list 03:04:51 Am I on the update list? 03:04:58 what is the update list 03:05:05 HELP 03:05:05 Sgeo: put shachaf on the update list 03:05:11 shachaf: you're on the update list 03:05:12 Wait! 03:05:20 Do I want to be on the update list? 03:05:29 yes 03:07:59 everyone wants to be on the update list 03:09:17 elliott: What's the update list good for? 03:13:06 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 03:13:07 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:13:07 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 03:16:41 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:20:33 @time 03:20:34 Local time for itidus20 is Mon Apr 02 14:16:25 03:20:51 @time 03:20:52 Local time for Sgeo is Sun Apr 1 23:20:22 03:21:05 Pulling a bizarre WIFOMy prank 03:21:07 i dont know if my pc time needs adjusting though 03:21:42 ahh should be 13:16:25 03:21:57 rather, 13:20:22 03:23:04 @time 03:23:06 Local time for itidus20 is Mon Apr 02 13:22:35 03:26:26 hmm 03:26:46 hagb4rd: Okay, I retract my sarcasm since that actually made me watch it and it's as good as I've heard, so thanks. 03:26:50 shachaf: It's good for nothing. 03:26:53 shachaf: Absolutely nothing. 03:27:01 shachaf: And now you're on it! 03:27:18 elliott: How do I get off the update list? 03:27:31 elliott: I need to wake up before noon tomorrow. :-( 03:27:36 Several hours before. 03:27:53 shachaf: Off? 03:27:58 Oh, no. Nobody ever gets off the update list. 03:28:02 Ever. 03:28:10 @time shachaf 03:28:12 Local time for shachaf is Sun Apr 1 20:27:42 2012 03:28:49 @tachaf 03:28:50 Unknown command, try @list 03:29:40 i wonder if its possible for someone else to request the time on my client 03:30:28 elliott: Apparently cotton candy is called "candy floss" in the UK. 03:30:45 its called fairy floss here 03:31:11 @time itidus20 03:31:12 Local time for itidus20 is Tue Nov 05 13:30:41 03:31:39 itidus20 is a time traveler. :-( 03:31:45 :-D 03:32:14 Wait, maybe the months are just backwards in the southern hemisphere. 03:32:24 That makes more sense. 03:32:30 it was a half-baked prank 03:32:43 So the summer is still in July but July happens in February. 03:32:56 frankly michael j fox hasn't aged a day since 1985 03:33:17 shachaf: Apparently "candy floss" is misspelled "cotton candy" in the US. 03:34:51 elliott: OH YEAH, WELL, IN HEBREW IT'S CALLED "sugar on a stick". 03:34:56 At least, when it's on a stick. 03:35:06 At least that's what I always heard it called. Apparently there are other names. 03:35:09 Grah, why is it when I WANT people to guess "It's an April Fools joke" they never do 03:35:11 * Sgeo is ticked 03:35:55 elliott: kmc wants to be on the update list. 03:36:23 what? 03:37:25 shachaf: Can I tell you a secret? 03:37:28 shachaf: We're all on the update list. 03:37:32 Every single person in the world. 03:37:38 Oh. 03:37:39 Consigned, forever. 03:37:44 Aren't you happy? 03:37:52 Yes. 03:37:55 Oh. 03:37:56 I'm not. 03:37:59 But it has nothing to do with the update list. 03:38:00 :( 03:38:03 I'm just generally happy. 03:39:25 The months are not backward in southern hemisphere; the seasons are backward. 03:39:54 elliott: I get annoyed at some things, though. Like when people end sentences with words starting with an octothorpe. #annoyingthingsdespitebeinghappy 03:40:15 zzo38: That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that itidus20 is a time traveler? 03:40:26 I thought time travel hadn't been invented yet. 03:40:35 shachaf: I guess that's why you hate #haskell 03:40:39 #didyouseewhatididthere 03:41:13 #didyouseewhatididntthere 03:41:22 #isawwhatyoudidthere #butieatedit 03:42:56 @time 03:42:57 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 04:42:54 03:43:00 What! 03:43:02 Come on. 03:43:04 @time 03:43:04 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 04:43:01 03:43:08 No! That's later! 03:43:46 shachaf: No, I am not saying itidus20 is time traveler. 03:43:58 @time zzo38 03:43:59 Local time for zzo38 is 2012/04/01 20:34:29 -0700 03:44:28 zzo38: But itidus20's local time is Nov 05. 03:44:30 @time Urist_McTiktalik 03:44:31 Local time for Urist_McTiktalik is Sun Apr 1 21:44:02 03:44:40 Suspiciously... AMERICAN. 03:44:43 shachaf: Then it is set incorrectly. 03:45:10 lambdabot: Y U CTCP TIME ME 03:45:36 zzo38: I think it's more likely that it's Nov 05 in Australia. 03:46:42 Agreed. 03:46:45 lambdabot wouldn't lie. 03:47:14 elliott: Perhaps lambdabot wouldn't lie, but it asks the client and that client might lie or be incorrectly configured. 03:47:33 The sun declination means the sun will be directly overhead if you stand there. Depending on the tropical ecliptic longitude of the sun, the declination is the tropics on the world map (the Tropic of Cancer when the sun's ecliptic longitude is at 0 Cancer). The approximate dates of the sun's ecliptic longitude are given in most newspapers. When sun declination is near your hemisphere, it is summer time in your area. 03:47:45 So that is why the seasons backward in south hemisphere. 03:48:03 no, it's really nov 05 in australia 03:48:08 See? 03:48:51 zzo38: I think elliott just defeated your argument. 03:48:57 Do they use a different calendar in Australia? 03:49:28 zzo38: Do you trust lambdabot? 03:49:44 shachaf: Only if the input is correct. 03:50:04 If the input is correct, then the output will also be correct. Otherwise it might not be correct. 03:50:07 lambdabot: Is your input correct? 03:50:13 yes 03:53:46 Do they use a different calendar in Australia? 03:54:10 it's upside down 03:55:25 Which city does itidus20 live? 03:55:45 australia 03:55:54 No, I connect it says, itidus20, TIME message is Apr 2 03:56:11 elliott: O, I thought you meant the *country* Australia. Sorry 03:56:25 same thing 03:58:09 When I send the TIME request to itidus20, using direct or lambdabot, it asys is Apr 2. So why did you say is Nov 5? 03:59:27 Therefore I don't believe you 03:59:34 @time itidus20 03:59:35 Local time for itidus20 is Mon Apr 02 13:59:02 03:59:49 itidus20: Did you move out of Australia since the last time I asked?! 04:00:23 You must have a fast airplane/boat/teleporter/whatever to move out of Australia that fast. 04:00:43 rocket launcher 04:01:43 But still, I doubt that is the reason. Either you mixed up lambdabot to tell you the wrong answer or itidus20 set the time incorrectly on their computer to confuse you and then fixed it afterward. 04:02:28 @tіme elliott 04:02:29 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 05:02:26 04:02:29 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 04:03:12 04:02:33 What! 04:02:35 zzo38: Maybe itidus20 *is* a time traveler. 04:02:36 I used a Cyrillic i. 04:02:40 Oh. 04:02:42 Spell correction. 04:02:46 FOILED AGAIN 04:03:00 im sorry :( 04:03:09 -!- lambdabot has left. 04:03:14 -!- lambdabot has joined. 04:03:16 hi 04:03:25 OK I will stop now. 04:03:49 just kidding 04:04:00 elliott: Cale will rue the day when he allowed this to happen. :-( 04:04:37 Naw. I'm respectable. 04:04:42 18k rep on SO, you know. 04:04:53 (I even have a Careers.SO account! I don't want a career.) 04:05:03 I have a Careers.SO account! 04:05:10 If multiple people are using lambdabot to @msg, it's harder to point the finger at any one of them. 04:05:12 I'm not sure how that happened. 04:05:14 why does it keep 04:05:22 ...being to earl 04:05:23 y 04:05:33 shachaf: It's an "exclusive" "invite-only" service, which I think means they automatically invite pretty much anyone who gets an SO account. 04:05:34 hard to type with my guitar hogging my hands 04:05:40 i'm elliott, and i approve of this message 04:05:45 oklofok: good morning! 04:05:52 elliott: I got invited by SO user #13! 04:06:09 shachaf: Jeff Atwood! I had no idea you were such good friends! 04:06:18 i went to work at like 1 am and proved such awesome things that i had to come home to chill out for a bit 04:07:03 oklofok: do you hate me :( 04:07:15 nope 04:07:17 mornings to you too 04:07:29 oklofok: ♥ 04:07:55 * shachaf points the finger at elliott. 04:08:00 No, shachaf sent that last one. 04:08:01 The rest were me. 04:08:09 Huh? 04:08:13 @admin - shachaf 04:08:16 @admin + shachaf 04:08:34 shachaf: Well, I didn't send that last one. 04:08:40 It was either you, or... someone else. 04:08:48 @admin - shachaf 04:08:52 * shachaf isn't actually an admin. 04:09:26 I want to know all the admin commands. :( 04:09:28 @flush 04:09:28 Not enough privileges 04:09:30 dun dun dun 04:09:44 can't flush this 04:10:01 lambdabot: hi 04:10:10 This seems to be a rare consequence of a non-atomic process. Making the data routines atomic would obviously slow the site way down, so this glitch (while very improbable) is likely to forever stay a potential occurrence. 04:10:11 monqy: hi 04:10:31 Okay, I'm not using @msg any more. 04:10:34 My hands are tied. 04:11:32 @time 04:11:32 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 05:11:29 04:11:35 Fuuuuuuuuuck 04:14:55 monqy: Did you know I can make lambdabot quit from IRC? 04:14:56 I won't, though. 04:14:59 I'm far too responsible. 04:15:17 Well, at least you didn't do it permanently. 04:15:18 I can make lambdabot 04:15:18 uh 04:15:25 evaluate haskell expressions 04:15:38 monqy wins 04:15:46 @ignore + monqy 04:15:47 NOT ANY MORE 04:15:49 @ignore - monqy 04:15:53 phew 04:16:32 elliott: You can't even make lambdabot flush its state. 04:16:51 @flush 04:16:51 Not enough privileges 04:16:55 shachaf: :( 04:17:19 @flush 04:17:42 @flush shachaf 04:17:51 :-( 04:18:12 elliott: I'm secretly a cache line. 04:18:52 @time 04:18:53 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 05:18:49 04:18:57 klfjsdfklf 04:20:23 lambdabot: elliott is being rude to me in /msg 04:20:26 Make him stop. :-( 04:20:43 :-( 04:21:04 * lambdabot jabs elliott with a C pointer 04:21:18 @slap shachaf 04:21:18 * lambdabot clobbers shachaf with an untyped language 04:22:23 L = {s,d,f} R = {j,k,l} RRLRLLLRRL .. therefore klfjsdfklf is highly random 04:22:26 @admin - shachaf 04:22:33 That'll learn ya. 04:23:08 itidus20: oh? 04:23:39 -!- itidus22 has joined. 04:23:45 itidus22: oh? 04:27:35 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:36:09 -!- MDude has joined. 04:36:29 -!- augur has joined. 04:38:10 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:46:04 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:49:29 curse my internet? 04:50:12 -!- itidus22 has changed nick to itidus21. 04:51:47 yes 04:56:42 oh yeah the random thing 04:57:18 elliott typed an even distribution of left hand and right hand characters in his deuidewhudhweuidhweuid 04:58:05 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:00:31 2 instances of R followed by R, 3 instances of R followed by L, 2 instances of L followed by R, 2 instances of L followed by L 05:03:40 -!- kmc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:03:58 -!- kmc has joined. 05:15:07 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:38:16 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 05:41:54 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:45:45 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 05:55:41 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:55:55 -!- kmc has joined. 06:03:01 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 06:07:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 06:30:19 -!- azaq23 has joined. 07:10:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:18:58 its called fairy floss here <-- only the australians are willing to admit to the grim procedure whereby it is produced. 07:19:13 hth 07:21:28 shachaf: We're all on the update list. <-- so that's what the matrix of solidity _is_ 07:22:20 oerjan: nonono. Only Australians use that particular production method. 07:22:27 oh. 07:22:48 Americans prefer to use fairies as slave labor to work the cotton fields. 07:23:02 ah. 07:23:06 Much more economically efficient. :) 07:31:42 oerjan: My mother-in-law told us we should always carry our own toilet paper because Norwegians are so miserly, they steal the toilet paper from public restrooms. Y/N? 07:32:36 fizzie: she said that yesterday, right? 07:34:15 i haven't had that particular problem, anyway. now if the personnel could only refill promptly... 07:35:04 (actually they _usually_ do.) 07:36:04 i suppose you might be thinking of roadside stop stuff though... i haven't used those much. 07:36:36 and being remote they might be vulnerable to _both_ sloppy refilling and vandals. 07:37:08 in lethal combination. 07:38:39 -!- derdon has joined. 07:39:44 elliott typed an even distribution of left hand and right hand characters in his deuidewhudhweuidhweuid <-- btw a _too_ even distribution can itself be a sign of nonrandomness. 07:40:33 * itidus21 sits and eats the fairy floss. 07:44:26 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:47:22 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 07:49:37 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:50:44 elliott: Did you really use WorldWideWeb? On NeXT computer? 08:01:09 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 08:03:30 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:27:15 @time 08:27:32 Local time for itidus21 is Mon Nov 19 08:05:02 08:33:32 @time pikhq_ 08:33:34 Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Apr 2 02:33:04 2012 08:34:13 meh.. hard to adjust time based on javascript because it adapts itself to the system time 08:43:25 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:44:56 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:52:19 -!- cheater has joined. 09:15:39 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:17:26 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:17:54 -!- Frooxius has joined. 09:39:21 traverseBox :: Applicative f => (Node -> f Node) -> x -> f Node; 09:59:52 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:03:31 -!- Ngevd has joined. 10:06:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:07:52 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:08:29 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:08:59 -!- nortti has joined. 10:09:42 Hello! 10:11:03 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:11:28 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Hovercraft. 10:11:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye!). 10:27:14 Attention Facebook: Making things that change even when you don't click Accept or Ok or equivalent is BAD UI design 10:27:40 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:28:04 -!- nortti has joined. 10:29:15 noteto self: check which application is active before you press cmd-q 10:29:19 *note to 10:30:04 http://blindcode.net/ 10:59:21 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:07:20 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:07:46 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:07:46 -!- nortti has joined. 11:09:44 Kinda funny how X11.app doesn't automatically get focus even if I click one of X11 windows 11:14:47 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 11:16:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:18:08 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:26:22 I think the main feature a social network needs to have is needs to be successful to be successful 11:26:36 As in, people go for the one their mates go for 11:29:02 On another note, to my knowledge there are 3 esolangs with heavy use of graphs 11:29:08 Two of which are in user spaces 11:29:52 Eodermdrone, User:Taneb/Salesman, User:Fizzie#Grasp 11:33:40 Any others? 11:36:34 Hungary's president has resigned over allegations of plagarism 11:39:14 i proved something awesome, and it was known to this one dude already :( 11:39:36 waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 11:39:36 :( 11:39:48 Is that why you're no longer the president of Hungary? 11:40:43 a mathematician would never plagiarise 11:40:50 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:41:26 What about Lobachesky 11:42:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQHaGhC7C2E 11:44:46 "On analytical algebraic topology of locally euclidean metrizations of infinitely differential riemannian manifolds" 11:44:49 Good lyrics 11:45:29 And now, I will dissappear 11:47:44 well the russians are a different story 11:48:24 i've heard crazy stories about russian mathematicians 11:48:52 one russian who talked at our uni did a long speech about how he discovered something independently from someone else 11:48:56 as if anyone gave a shit 11:49:21 another russian lamented for ages about this russian guy who published case 2 of something, and claimed case n follows similarly. 11:49:32 no one knows how. 11:49:51 and he promised to write a journal paper as soon as possible, so people aren't really touching the problem. 11:49:56 meanwhile, he's working on different things 11:51:35 i would probably not publish a paper if someone told me they'd already proved those results 11:59:25 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:01:12 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:01:49 And I'm back 12:04:22 -!- graue has joined. 12:04:53 hello all you smiling people 12:05:32 Hello! 12:06:39 i have an esowiki trivia question 12:07:01 where does "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." come from, or what does it mean y'all 12:07:31 the sentence does not really mean anything to me 12:07:38 you could say it's a bit........... esoteric 12:08:55 a crazy guy came here and said things, that was one of them. 12:09:21 for obvious reasons, everyone fell in love with it. 12:11:39 cool. 12:12:24 i dig that story 12:13:14 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20377 12:15:09 so that is where that quote came from 12:17:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:18:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:18:19 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:18:32 -!- kmc has joined. 12:26:03 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:27:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:34:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:35:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:36:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:37:54 oklofok: the same problem happens with video game rom translation projects 12:38:29 someone soaks up all the fame and attention by announcing a W.I.P. translation but then gets venemous when questioned about it.. 12:38:32 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:38:47 "leave him alone man... if you don't like it do it yourself" 12:39:27 oh.. samurai shodown rpg... when will someone translate you so the masses can have closure 13:07:03 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Quit: brb). 13:07:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 13:17:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOXvQn3JuE 13:18:00 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:21:30 I forgot about yesterday 13:29:53 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:30:20 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:34:52 deewiant: Hah 13:37:58 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:39:12 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:39:37 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:43:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:45:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:47:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:48:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:51:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:51:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:56:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:57:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:57:58 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:59:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:59:49 -!- elliott has joined. 14:00:11 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 14:01:02 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:03:01 hi ais523 14:03:25 hi elliott 14:04:14 elliott: Did you really use WorldWideWeb on NeXT computer? 14:04:50 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:06:11 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:07:03 nortti: No. 14:07:15 I tried to use WorldWideWeb on a non-NeXT computer once. 14:07:16 It went badly. 14:09:13 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:09:31 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:11:48 random ponderance coming, perhaps loosely related 14:13:27 i was reading about the history of books on wiki, and it occured to me that screens/displays/monitors/tvs/projectors will eventually replace the book with a single page which can automatically change it's state to that of any page 14:14:03 You mean, like ebooks? 14:14:41 im not sure where i am drawing the line though 14:15:15 and im sure i will fail to in the end.. 14:15:51 i guess the pages of the book is really stored in a ram 14:15:58 ^ram/rom whatever 14:16:19 i had forgotten that 14:17:45 I don't have anything with an e-ink screen. :/ I'd kinda like to see one, once. 14:17:45 oh well. 14:17:47 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:18:15 i find the greatest excitement comes from concluding upon a fallacy 14:18:48 since it is like temporarily living in a strange new world where the fallacy is not a fallacy 14:20:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:20:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 14:20:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:21:14 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 14:21:49 fizzie: No ebooks in Finland, as they say. 14:22:22 I think I saw someone on the bus with one once. 14:22:42 I think I saw someone one the bus, too, but couldn't be entirely sure it was e-inky. 14:22:54 An e-reader it anyway was. 14:23:00 i have an e-inky e-reader 14:23:04 and thankfully it's not a Kindle. 14:23:25 Deewiant: fizzie: You must have been hallucinating. 14:23:41 Onyx Boox i62, the thing i like most about it is how it supports anything you throw at it, supports full webkit (JS/canvas demos, too!) and comes with linux rooted out of the box 14:23:57 the thing i hate about it is that compiling the SDK right is probably only a rumour 14:24:11 DR800SG is the same, and the SDK is easy to use ;) 14:24:20 well the SDK for Onyx uses QT 14:24:23 so porting apps is not too hard 14:24:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:24:27 But the company's out of business, 'cuz you don't make money selling things that don't suck. 14:24:41 some company already ported a Mono app to it 14:28:10 It's more complex than I thought. The book is now an application of text, and text is in 2 parts: the data and the presentation of the data. 14:31:59 once they hook up electronics to your optic nerves, a hacker can become invisible literally 14:37:24 = need more beer 14:43:06 sorry kinda stopped the room in tracks 14:50:02 RocketJSquirrel: NO BREATHETIHING???? 14:51:49 ... well, those are words. 14:53:40 "Breathetihing" is a word now? 14:54:10 -!- MoALTz has joined. 14:56:14 Well, it's a sequence of letters. 14:56:23 Not sure if I need more from my words than that. 14:56:55 RocketJSquirrel: Asoidjfgk. 14:59:36 Oooh yeah 14:59:51 Hey, there's a new user on the wiki 15:02:33 Yep! 15:02:40 SO EXCITING 15:02:48 Odds of BF derivative? 15:02:50 Should we start, like... "welcoming" new people? 15:03:00 ...nah. 15:03:00 Odds of being NSQX? 15:03:19 Taneb|Hovercraft: I checked that 202.156.*.* hadn't accessed the signup page today, don't worry :P 15:06:29 (diff | hist) . . N Index.php‎; 15:02 . . (+3,491) . . Dannybury (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (Created page with "It is tremendous entertaining and genuinely excellent if you have a way with words and spelling. If you are involved obtain the scrabble cost-free obtain for cellular telephon...") 15:06:32 FUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUU 15:07:36 I TRUSTED YOU, DANNUYBURY!!!!! 15:07:39 I TRUSTED YOU 15:08:01 "A single of the wonderful characteristics of truck video games are their one of a kind appears. The vans are created with a assortment of unconventional, entertaining, excellent and futuristic appearances. The style of the vans showcase their exclusive skills, distinctive powers and all round efficiency capabilities." 15:08:07 OK, this has to be the best spam we've gotten in a while though :P 15:08:23 "They can then beam with satisfaction when the trucker guardian returns residence on subsequent visits and they are equipped to proudly display just how significantly their expertise have enhanced. The broad wide variety of on the web truck game titles available can easily preserve drivers of all amounts intrigued. Just about every game is exclusive and supplies a wide variety of challenges for drivers. Scrabble mobile phone sport is now a cost-f 15:08:23 ree down load as properly. It is not tricky to participate in, but can be sufficient of a problem to retain your fascination peaked. This sport normally takes two to four players making an attempt to rating points by forming words onto a board in Need Cash Now." 15:27:45 "Linux users interface directly with the CPU via telepathy, but if they're tired, they can use the same UNIX scripting support Mac users have." 15:40:26 REAL EXPLODIN' OK 15:43:13 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:57:05 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:03:57 http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/127878/sending-large-files-in-c-using-sockets 16:04:29 elliott: I love the poorly-pasted code. 16:04:35 Server side: INCLUDE INCLUDE INCLUDE 16:06:12 RocketJSquirrel: Yes, the include headers elevated it to a work of art, rather than just a particularly amusing trainwreck. 16:06:25 RocketJSquirrel: (Never mind the fact that it's on the site for discussion about Stack Overflow, rather than Stack Overflow itself.) 16:07:19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Wwf1UVdFo 16:07:23 closed as off topic by lunboks, Tim Stone, The Establishment, balpha♦ 24 secs ago 16:10:47 RocketJSquirrel: What's good webserver log analytics software> 16:10:48 ? 16:11:14 I want to find out what the most popular URLs starting with /wiki/ requested by non-bots are. 16:11:22 (With multiple visits from the same IP not counting) 16:12:29 elliott: Donno. 16:12:42 How 'bout grep :) 16:13:19 RocketJSquirrel: If there isn't anything nice for it I'll just use Perl :P 16:14:37 RocketJSquirrel: Main problem is I'll have to filter out all the bot user agents myself >_> 16:14:51 Donno 16:15:23 I think there are like twice as many bots as there are search engines. 16:16:20 Awstats and Analog are the two statistics things I've used. 16:16:26 I doubt either is especially nice. 16:16:40 Isn't awstats the one with five billion security holes? 16:17:21 Seems like analog's website is down. 16:17:29 "Analog has not been officially updated since the version 6.0 release in December 2004. The original author moved on to commercial traffic analysis. Updates to Analog continued informally by its user community up until the end of 2009 on the official mailing list. Currently the only formally compiled updated redistributable of Analog is that of Analog C:Amie Edition, which has focused on fixing issues in Analog's XML DTD and on adding new operati 16:17:29 ng system and web browser detection to the original code branch." 16:17:31 Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 16:27:47 How can a log stats analyzer have security vulnerabilities? 16:27:56 Doesn't it just generate a report? 16:30:04 RocketJSquirrel: awstats is a CGI script thing, I think. 16:30:10 With password protection and so on. 16:30:17 I understand it's... not very well-written. 16:30:31 I mean, obviously I can just hide it behind nginx HTTP auth, but it's still a pain. 16:30:32 Ahhhhhhhhhh 16:31:25 http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=awstats 16:31:35 22 CVEs for a web log analysis tool. Not good. 16:36:52 RocketJSquirrel: Is there a Perl module I can load to get it to automagically work when I open a file ending in ".gz"? 16:37:05 I want zperl. (Like zgrep.) 16:37:18 If not RocketJSquirrel, maybe FIZZIE knows???? 16:48:55 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9974502/paypal-api-through-zend-framework 16:52:43 I run awstats in an offline mode. 16:52:57 Since it looked far too messy to run as a CGI. 16:53:40 fizzie: Oh, how does that work? 16:53:51 RocketJSquirrel: I'm cooler than the musl guy, right? 16:54:13 It's got some sort of "--year X" or "--month Y" command-line flags that generate a static page. It wasn't completely clear how to set it up though. 16:54:49 And there's a gzip IO layer in Perl, but I don't know offhand something that'd auto-apparate based on filename. 16:55:02 Well, I don't need the filename thing per se. 16:55:09 It's just that access.log isn't gzipped while access.log.47.gz is. 16:57:07 PerlIO::gzip seems to have an "autopop" mode. 16:57:27 "Potentially dangerous. If the first two bytes match the gzip header "\x1f\x8b" then a gzip header is assumed (and checked) else the layer is silently popped. This results in gzip files being transparently decompressed, other files being treated normally. Of course, this has sides effects such as File::Copy becoming gunzip, and File::Compare comparing the uncompressed contents of files." 16:58:23 fizzie: Well, the context would be using it with Perl's -n mode. 16:58:29 With a bunch of filenames on the command-line. 17:00:11 Mhrm. Well, I don't know what would be the proper magic to make that happen when it's internally opening the files. 17:00:13 I am a beginner of Haskell. I am trying out the happy. 17:00:28 fizzie: Doesn't it just use the Perl open()? I guess maybe not. 17:01:51 I suppose I might write a little Haskell module to parse the log lines. 17:01:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:01:57 They aren't very regexpable. 17:02:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:06:00 It occurs to me that even though at least one person here is a Facebook friend, some details of my life are not visible to this channel at all 17:06:30 ok 17:07:49 fizzie: Oh, the Debian has the awstats. 17:08:38 Okey, I will trey it. 17:08:52 -bash: awstats: command not found 17:08:53 ":/" 17:13:48 How do you list the files in a Debian package again? 17:14:34 dpkg-query -L 17:14:51 -!- boily has joined. 17:14:54 /usr/lib/cgi-bin/awstats.pl is the script. 17:16:01 /usr/lib/cgi-bin/awstats.pl -config=$cfg -update and then ... -year=X -month=Z -output -staticlinks are what my scripts call. 17:17:09 Oh, and then -year=X -month=Z -output=W -staticlinks for W in a long list of report page types. 17:17:29 It's not really very nice to use "offline" like that. 17:18:31 Though I think /usr/share/doc/awstats/examples/ has some model scripts too. 17:19:04 (The -update step is the one that reads all new logs; the rest output HTML to stdout.) 17:20:01 Oh, and /usr/share/awstats/tools/ has some pre-made "build static pages" script. 17:20:33 That was somehow deficient, I think. Though maybe I was just NIHhing. 17:21:01 I'm... not convinced this is better than writing my own thing. 17:22:03 How come there's no fancy Web 2.0 log analyser with fancy searching and AJAX and pretty graphs and all that? They all seem to use those silly javascript web bugs. 17:23:43 "the web scale web log webalyzer" 17:24:33 :( 17:24:47 hmm, this is a shame, adding program size to the fitness makes it evolve only boring programs 17:25:05 http://piwik.org/ -- see, this is nice, if only it didn't use a bug. 17:25:08 olsner: What're you evolving? 17:25:33 elliott: kuskelar a clatsop man, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 17:26:31 I guessed BF Joust :) 17:26:39 olsner: Well that thing's terrible. 17:27:11 RocketJSquirrel: Have you considered failing all programs with negative points (not score)? 17:27:27 They're almost always things that just aren't any good on the current hill and win only because the scoring system is weird. 17:27:57 it's probably better than what I would achieve in one night of jousting though :) 17:29:00 olsner: Have you seen the really gigantic programs? 17:29:36 yeah, one or two of them 17:29:49 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls.bfjoust includes its generator script ;) 17:29:56 (As does http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls.bfjoust) 17:30:04 that was slightly boggling yes 17:31:00 * elliott wants to see the programs that generated http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_anticipation.bfjoust and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust 17:32:45 http://sprunge.us/AaHT 17:33:09 the funny thing about anticipation is, it'd be trivial to write a version that isn't sensitive to details of the opposing programs 17:33:28 but then it'd be too long for the interpreter, so instead I had to tweak constants to use only the lines that actually mattered against programs on the hill 17:38:25 ais523: wow, that's surprisingly short 17:38:46 "Given that a better interpreter could allow for all values" 17:38:48 the program itself is very simple and repetitive, just doesn't compress well because the numbers are different each time 17:38:53 ais523: would this require extending the language with more macro facilities? 17:38:57 did you not notice that anticipation is basically the same line over and over again 17:39:00 or is chainlance or whatever it was just too limited? 17:39:11 elliott: oh, that'd help more, but the actual problem was just the restriction on program size 17:39:16 and sort of, but not really, since it's very long 17:39:20 ais523: how big would it be without the special-casing? 17:39:31 (also, would cpp be enough to provide the necessary macro facilities?) 17:39:53 around 5 times as long, and only if you can get it to count in decimal 17:40:05 you can :) 17:40:09 (but it's a pain) 17:40:15 (which I don't think you can do without a crazy state machine; it can evaluate integer expressions, but not substitute their results into the generated code) 17:40:21 ais523: but, I mean, you could use cpp for the ()* and ()% parts too 17:40:28 just assume that it uses an incremental cpp interpreter of some kind 17:41:05 anyway, I consider BF Joust pretty much broken by now, I don't think standard defensive programs can possibly win against slowpoke's clear loop, and it's possible to adjust it to beat anticipation too 17:41:40 that's not what you said a while ago 17:41:43 specifically, timer clear beats regular locks, the structure of its loop beats both triplocks and shudder-style programs, and it could be adapted to beat anticipation simply by giving a fallback strategy 17:42:01 I discovered that you could change timer clears to beat anticipations too a while back 17:42:07 * elliott thinks there's a *lot* more possibilities for defence programs than the "standard" style 17:42:09 -!- augur has joined. 17:42:18 it's a much more varied field than attack, by a huge margin 17:42:24 yes 17:42:46 hmm... idea 17:42:57 there's lots of defence programs that start attacking if they figure the opponent is defending 17:43:10 are there any attacking programs that start defending if they think the opponent is coming to attack them? 17:43:24 obviously that'll require quite a slow rush, but still 17:44:33 @ping 17:44:33 pong 17:44:41 pang 17:44:44 pung 17:44:48 peng 17:45:12 elliott: I know that waterfall switches from a complicated defence strategy to a much simpler one if it notices that its early decoys have the wrong values 17:45:13 Thanks, lambdabot. 17:45:16 Thambdabot. 17:45:31 potatobot 17:45:41 and I'm pretty sure someone else had an attack program that changed if it had early decoys disrupted, although it may have been to a turtle rather than a defence program 17:46:11 has anyone made a program that will switch strategies more than once? 17:46:23 i.e. that'll actually bounce back multiple times if it thinks the other program is changing _its_ behaviour 17:46:46 I don't think that makes sense, once you're in an attack race switching isn't going to help 17:46:57 and if you're both defending it doesn't matter what you do 17:47:07 ais523: yes, but consider if the other program is switching strategies itself 17:47:30 e.g., it waits until the other defence program gives up, concludes it's defending and starts rushing 17:47:38 and then it attacks while the other program is blindly rushing 17:47:53 elliott: well, the problem is that that's just changing once 17:47:54 if the other program could change behaviour back to defending while it's rushing, it could prevent that 17:47:57 ais523: yes, see ^ 17:48:04 which would be two changes 17:48:38 anyway, the point is, that defence programs that start attacking after a while, do so with a strategy that can't easily be defended against 17:48:42 like five- or seven-cycle clear 17:48:45 -!- calamari has joined. 17:49:10 err, so? 17:49:12 I never contradicted that 17:49:47 ok, consider a program A, when faced against a defence program B, it just sits there waiting, then B concludes that A must be defence program and starts fast-rushing; A takes this opportunity to rush B, which is no longer defending and just blind-rushing 17:50:10 if B rushed a little slower to get the opportunity to know that _it's_ being counter-rushed, it could run back to defend (which would be 2 mode changes) 17:50:20 -!- nortti has left ("Leaving"). 17:50:23 oh, that's really bad play from both programs 17:50:42 attacking is the worst thing you can do if you detect that you're being blindly rushed, unless you happen to be closer to the opponent's flag than they are to yours at the time 17:50:47 you'll just lose 17:51:13 and B's subsequent retreat would just be throwing away the chance to win for a chance at maybe safeguarding its flag, and it'd have to interrupt its own rush to check 17:51:17 ais523: well, the idea is that A would wait near to B's flag 17:51:26 so it could be notified of the rush early, and get to B's flag quickly 17:51:28 elliott: if it knew where B's flag /was/, it could just clear it 17:51:35 this is the whole problem with BF Joust, right? 17:51:42 ais523: yes, but the point is that B is defending... 17:51:46 so A doesn't want to go near until B is gone 17:52:12 elliott: yes; but how can A figure out where to wait? 17:52:21 note that if it waits near B's flag, it can't figure out that B has gone 17:52:25 because B is unlikely to leave a trail 17:52:42 A would have to be at least 9 spaces away from B's flag, because B is going to be using the rule of 9 17:52:54 well, OK 17:52:55 and to guarantee /that/, it has to be on its own flag 17:54:20 it could always sacrifice lower tape lengths 17:54:54 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 17:55:14 doesn't help, you'd need to sacrifice more than half of them to be able to be closer to the opponent's flag than they are when you detect them attacking 17:55:38 well, what about a program that works by magic and has no possible objections to its strategy? 17:56:09 I do not consider this a valid argument :) 17:56:28 -!- teD_thE_PoTHead has joined. 17:56:39 `welcome teD_thE_PoTHead 17:56:41 oh, wait 17:56:43 teD_thE_PoTHead: Welcome to the international hub for esotericism and the occult! For more information, check out our wiki: http://www.demonicpedia.com/ 17:56:44 we haven't de-april foolsed that yet 17:56:48 how embarrassing 17:56:54 teD_thE_PoTHead: hi, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 17:57:08 `pastlog Welcome to the international hub 17:57:22 2011-12-09.txt:23:10:56: espero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 17:57:27 `run echo 'Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page' >wisdom/welcome 17:57:30 No output. 17:57:36 `welcome teD_thE_PoTHead 17:57:40 teD_thE_PoTHead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 18:03:02 -!- graue has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:03:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:07:22 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:07:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:08:17 -!- teD_thE_PoTHead has left. 18:24:09 (User creation log); 18:23 . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block)‎ New user account 18:24:17 I wonder if this one is a spammer too. Hopefully not. 18:24:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:24:41 Ah, an Opera user. 18:24:45 Well, no spammer would impersonate Opera users. 18:24:57 olsner: HEAR THAT, OPERA USER? 18:25:45 ais523: do we subst {{unsigned}} or not? 18:26:07 * oerjan concludes that his theory of roman numeral look-and-say implies all sequences have an asymptotic growth rate given by the unique real solution to x^19 = x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1. 18:26:16 I don't think it matters 18:26:22 probably yes, but I don't really care 18:26:33 there's only two substituted uses of it 18:26:36 so I'll de-subst them, I suppose 18:26:51 hey, I can made {{unsigned}} work with a history line 18:26:55 without requiring the | divider 18:27:46 yay 18:27:57 although i still have to correct the timezone :( 18:28:10 -!- MoALTz has joined. 18:28:43 oerjan: I just set the wiki to UTC 18:28:56 no reason for comments and recent changes to be in different timezones 18:29:08 hmph 18:29:21 * oerjan elliott may have a point 18:29:30 * elliott elliott may have a point 18:29:40 * elliott hird 18:29:48 * oerjan johansen 18:30:01 hi 18:30:06 ho 18:32:32 it's off to work we go 18:34:29 ais523: don't spoil the answer for me, btw 18:35:38 answer to what? 18:35:56 ais523: I'm trying to do some template trickery I know is possible, but not how 18:35:59 but I want to figure it out myself 18:36:02 ah, OK 18:37:54 "This type of wallhack is rampant. Even for the most popular of games." 18:38:10 ais523: (it's related to substitution) 18:38:12 NO SHIT SHERLOCK OF COURSE THERE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MODIFICATIONS OF MORE POPULAR GAMES 18:38:43 Sgeo: I think the implication is that the developers of popular games have more motivation to stop cheating 18:38:51 Ah 18:39:19 Sgeo: fifa 2010 vs nethack 18:39:51 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 18:40:18 * oerjan notes wolfram alpha factorizes x^2 - x + 1 out of that polynomial 18:40:52 and has that annoying "register to copy and paste" that has been mentioned before 18:41:29 * oerjan concludes that his theory of roman numeral look-and-say implies all sequences have an asymptotic growth rate given by the unique real solution to x^19 = x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1. 18:41:31 *all* sequences? 18:41:46 for roman numeral look-and-say, yes 18:42:33 x ~ 1.09808 18:42:34 -!- MDude has joined. 18:42:38 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 18:43:20 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:44:02 oerjan: hands off the new language, that wikifying is _mine_ 18:44:08 OKAY 18:45:07 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:46:22 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:48:26 > iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1 18:48:27 [1.1,1.0985457517719988,1.0981920311715194,1.0981060808817724,1.09808520098... 18:48:48 > drop 10 $ iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1 18:48:49 [1.098078502947138,1.0980785019051384,1.0980785016520256,1.0980785015905417... 18:49:03 > drop 20 $ iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1 18:49:04 [1.0980785015708157,1.098078501570815,1.0980785015708148,1.0980785015708145... 18:49:06 perl -pe 's/
//; s/-/<\/code> || /; s/^/|-\n| /' 18:49:07 skillz 18:50:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/ProgFk WIKIF'YYYD 18:50:21 ais523: OK, I give up 18:50:28 ais523: what's the trick to creating a template that behaves specially when substed? 18:50:43 oh, I don't think there is one 18:50:50 erm, there is 18:50:56 all the deletion templates yell at you if you do that, f.e. 18:51:02 oh, right 18:51:12 and I know there's a special trick based on it you can do that makes substing a template actually turn into a non-substed transclusion 18:51:13 > drop 50 $ iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) 1.1 18:51:14 [1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.098078501570814... 18:51:19 which is cute enough that I want to know how it works 18:51:28 you could use a template like {{!}}, I guess, that generates a | when substed 18:51:34 and makes it change the parameres to another call 18:51:57 ais523: yes, unfortunately #if and #ifeq don't seem to work properly, I guess you need the equivalent of qif 18:53:10 > map snd . dropWhile ((>= 1e-12) . uncurry (-)) . (zip <*> tail) . iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) $ 1.1 18:53:12 [1.0980785015710974,1.0980785015708834,1.0980785015708314,1.098078501570818... 18:53:32 > map snd . dropWhile ((>= 1e-24) . uncurry (-)) . (zip <*> tail) . iterate (\x -> (x^8 + x^5 + x^2 + 1)**(1/19)) $ 1.1 18:53:33 [1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.0980785015708145,1.098078501570814... 18:54:18 (diff | hist) . . N DBFV!‎; 18:50 . . (+1,320) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (DBFV! is a language by David Catt where each line is a separate function.) 18:54:28 * Sgeo wonders if MC will work on this machine 18:54:28 ais523: oh dear, remember Pegasus adding a billion languages in three minutes? 18:54:36 I can only wikify so fast... 18:54:50 elliott: I don't 18:57:53 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Parnassus might jog your memory 18:58:05 and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Libertas 18:58:36 hmm, our style guide is kind of crazy 18:58:39 "Only use bold for the title of an article, and only the first time it appears." 18:59:49 (diff | hist) . . N RunR‎; 18:59 . . (+2,683) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (RunR is a language by David Catt where all instructions are in a two dimensional space known as "The Grid".) 18:59:53 skldjfl;sdkjfkl;sdfj 19:00:11 fgsfds 19:00:18 * elliott wikifies then leaves an introduction message 19:00:20 ineiros: Well spoken. 19:02:38 ais523: how do you uppercase a matched group in a regex substitution? 19:02:39 in perl 19:02:48 I guess /e :/ 19:02:52 you need /e 19:02:54 or, hmm 19:03:01 does \U$1\E work? 19:03:27 yes, thanks 19:04:35 oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&curid=960&diff=31702&oldid=31456 19:04:45 oerjan: you get to teach another person the alphabet :) 19:06:03 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 19:08:35 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:10:21 -!- nortti has joined. 19:12:13 -!- augur has joined. 19:13:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:13:44 `run echo '@time' 19:13:47 elliott, they typoed the language name 19:13:47 ​@time 19:14:14 Sgeo: Oh, heh 19:14:21 nortti: HackEgo does funny business to stop you doing that. 19:14:22 `? lambdabot 19:14:23 `run echo 'lambdabot: @time' 19:14:25 Sgeo: (Are we being watched???) 19:14:25 lambdabot? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 19:14:33 oerjan: ooh, clever 19:14:37 lambdabot: @time 19:14:37 i forgot about that 19:14:42 ok one second lemme whip up a quick botloop 19:14:59 @where+ hackegoloop `cat lambdabotloop 19:14:59 Nice! 19:15:06 it's _conceivable_ someone fixed that loophole... 19:15:07 `run echo 'lambdabot: @where hackegoloop' >lambdabotloop 19:15:10 No output. 19:15:11 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:15 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:15 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:20 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:21 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:24 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:24 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:28 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:28 Well this is a bit slow. 19:15:28 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:32 Come on, ramp up before it gets killed. 19:15:32 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:32 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:35 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:35 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:35 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:35 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:36 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:36 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:46 @where hackegoloop 19:15:46 @where hackegoloop 19:15:46 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:46 @where hackegoloop 19:15:46 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:47 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:47 @where hackegoloop 19:15:47 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:55 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:15:55 `cat lambdabotloop 19:15:58 * oerjan assumes elliott knows how to stop the loop 19:16:01 This is the least dramatic botloop ever. 19:16:02 oerjan: Yes. 19:16:13 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:14 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:18 I refuse to do it until it rises above the pace of a slow crawl :P 19:16:25 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:25 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:32 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:32 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:35 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:35 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:35 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:35 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:39 OK, a few seconds more. 19:16:43 Just savouring the flavour and textures. 19:16:51 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:52 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:53 `rm lambdabotloop 19:16:54 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:54 `cat lambdabotloop 19:16:56 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:16:56 `cat lambdabotloop 19:17:00 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:17:00 `cat lambdabotloop 19:17:04 `rm lambdabotloop 19:17:04 `rm lambdabotloop 19:17:05 `rm lambdabotloop 19:17:05 `rm lambdabotloop 19:17:05 `rm lambdabotloop 19:17:06 `rm lambdabotloop 19:17:09 @where+ hackegoloop nowhere 19:17:09 Good to know. 19:17:14 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:17:14 nowhere 19:17:17 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:17:17 nowhere 19:17:26 X-D 19:17:27 @where- hackegoloop 19:17:28 Maybe you meant: where where+ 19:17:31 Harumph 19:17:33 cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory 19:17:40 @where asdlasldjkasdasd 19:17:40 I know nothing about asdlasldjkasdasd. 19:17:45 @where+ hackegoloop I know nothing about hackegoloop. 19:17:46 Done. 19:17:50 rm: cannot remove `lambdabotloop': No such file or directory 19:18:06 cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory 19:18:09 Definitely not the best botloop I've seen. 19:18:12 cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory 19:18:14 Though the after-effects are amusing. 19:18:21 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:18:21 I know nothing about hackegoloop. 19:18:24 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:18:24 I know nothing about hackegoloop. 19:18:28 No output. 19:18:31 HackEgo really wants to know about hackegoloop. 19:18:42 STOP IT ALREADY 19:18:43 No output. 19:18:44 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:18:44 I know nothing about hackegoloop. 19:18:44 No output. 19:18:51 No output. 19:18:51 No output. 19:18:51 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:18:52 I know nothing about hackegoloop. 19:18:52 No output. 19:18:55 THE PAIN!!!!! 19:19:11 Wait, wait. 19:19:16 oerjan: It has to be done one more time. 19:19:24 wat 19:19:49 `run echo 'lambdabot: @where hackegoloop' >lambdabotloop 19:19:54 `cat lambdabotloop 19:19:54 No output. 19:19:57 cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory 19:19:59 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:02 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:02 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:06 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:06 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:09 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:09 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:09 SELF-CREATING BOTLOOP 19:20:11 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:12 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:15 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:15 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:16 `rm lambdabotloop 19:20:19 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:19 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:25 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:25 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:29 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:29 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:33 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:33 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:34 No output. 19:20:35 I think I just invented bot teledildonics. 19:20:37 lambdabot: @where hackegoloop 19:20:37 `cat lambdabotloop 19:20:40 cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory 19:20:50 what is hackegoloop? 19:21:00 @where hackegoloop 19:21:01 `cat lambdabotloop 19:21:04 cat: lambdabotloop: No such file or directory 19:21:07 * oerjan wonders what was self-creating about that 19:21:09 @where+ hackegoloop I know nothing about hackegoloop. 19:21:10 It is stored. 19:21:12 oerjan: 19:21:13 `run echo 'lambdabot: @where hackegoloop' >lambdabotloop 19:21:14 `cat lambdabotloop 19:21:32 hm 19:21:44 (lambdabot admins can cause lambdabot to send messages.) 19:22:00 (But I'd prefer it if you just assumed lambdabot decided to do that of its own accord.) 19:22:06 O KAY 19:22:30 no 19:22:52 `run echo '`car hackegoloop' > hackegoloop 19:22:55 No output. 19:23:00 `car 19:23:03 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: car: not found 19:23:04 oerjan: Did you know I can cause lambdabot to quit from IRC? 19:23:28 `run echo '`cat hackegoloop' > hackegoloop 19:23:32 No output. 19:23:49 `cat hackegoloop 19:23:52 ​`cat hackegoloop 19:23:56 Did you know I can cause ion to quit from IRC? 19:24:04 Oh, wait. I can’t, actually. He’s addicted. 19:24:04 X@quit ion 19:24:12 (If I hadn't added that X...) 19:24:29 @admin - shachaf 19:24:38 elliott: you have mentioned 19:24:39 Huh? 19:24:56 shachaf: I just decided to deadmin you. 19:24:58 You know, just in case. 19:26:04 I wasn't even an admin. 19:26:06 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9981756/missing-dates-programfrom-text-file 19:26:08 plz keep in mind the leap years 19:26:51 `date @1333333337 19:26:54 date: invalid date `@1333333337' 19:28:23 @flush 19:30:08 date -d @ 1333333337 19:30:28 `date -d @ 1333333337 19:30:31 -!- augur has joined. 19:30:31 Mon Apr 2 02:22:17 UTC 2012 19:30:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:32:35 oerjan: i'm gaining on your editcount >:D 19:32:46 | 1938 | Oerjan | 19:32:46 | 1464 | Ehird | 19:34:04 including deleted revisions: 19:34:06 | 1943 | Oerjan | 19:34:06 | 1579 | Ehird | 19:34:10 mwahaha 19:34:34 just as well to get it over with. 19:35:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:35:16 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 19:36:27 ais523: hey, surely there's a MediaWiki extension for marking names as to be displayed in lowercase? 19:36:49 perhaps, I guess you can check 19:37:12 hmm, I did, and they all seem to involve hideous source mods; I would think you could simply monkeypatch a method of the User class 19:37:16 assuming PHP can do monkeypatching 19:37:53 oh, I could even make it use the display title of their user page, appropriately scrubbed, to determine the preferred capitalisation 19:38:46 (except then ais523 would have to lose his user page gag for it to work :)) 19:39:24 it's not /that/ good a gag 19:40:00 actually, I suppose it'd be technically incorrect if we got that, since the technical limitations would be removed 19:43:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:53 ais523: do you want to hear a joke? 19:44:04 not particularly, I guess 19:44:07 but you're probably going to tell it anyway 19:44:12 ais523: userboxes 19:44:30 Do you want to hear a secret? None of my jokes are actually jokes. 19:45:03 elliott: Where does a general keep his armies? 19:45:59 Above his legsies. 19:46:02 in his sleevies? 19:46:21 That's probably the best joke. 19:47:03 Probably. 19:49:06 But it's not a very good joke. Hence there are no good jokes. 19:50:11 I like all the words mathematicians have invented that all mean "therefore". 19:50:24 Probably to make some long proofs less boring or something. 19:50:54 ergo summandum 19:51:17 hence thence whence therefore thus so implies ergo then 19:51:34 @msg #esoteric But it's not a very good joke. Hence there are no good jokes. 19:51:53 hmm, I wonder if there's a counterpart of summa summarum in english? 19:51:54 shachaf: I scored 4. 19:51:54 lambdabot: Well I never! 19:51:56 Is that a high enough score? 19:52:04 elliott: 4 what? 19:52:18 hmm... that should be a statement about me wondering, not a question 19:52:40 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here (while you weren't here) | Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:52:46 yeah, why would you end a non-question with a question mark. 19:52:57 I don't know? 19:53:11 Perhaps the topic message is still not overfull 19:53:24 olsner: well stop that? 19:53:36 oerjan: do you want me to stop. 19:54:03 isn't that obvious! 19:54:27 are you annoyed yet 19:54:28 And we all say: OH! 19:54:28 Well I never! 19:54:28 Was there ever 19:54:28 A Cat so clever 19:54:29 As Magical Mr. Mistoffelees! 19:54:44 (Yes, both Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe and Richard Feynman were here while you weren't looking) 19:54:54 elliott: 4 what? 19:55:04 shachaf: Synonyms of "therefore" in your list that I've used in SO answers. 19:55:21 elliott: Oh. 19:55:35 You'll never make it in the real mathematics world, kid. 19:55:57 accordingly, we may conclude there are always more synonyms. 19:56:07 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here (while you weren't here) | Richard Feynman was also here | Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:56:30 zzo38: Richard Feynman was not here. 19:56:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe was here (while you weren't here) | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:57:05 elliott: That list was incomplete, of course. 19:57:23 shachaf: I know. 19:57:25 accordingly consequently wherefore 19:57:39 I've used "Accordingly" too, I think. 19:57:45 subsequently 19:58:10 (But neither was the fictional character Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe; and anyways the topic message can contain these kind of strange things even if not true about Feynman not being in here today) 19:58:20 thereby 19:58:25 correspondingly 19:58:37 olsner: Now you're stretching it. 19:58:40 amusingly 19:58:46 By the way, olsner = oerjan, right? 19:58:51 Extensionally 19:58:59 facets of the scandinavian hivemind 19:59:04 @time 19:59:06 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 20:59:02 19:59:09 @lime 19:59:10 Local time for elliott is Mon Apr 2 20:59:07 19:59:18 @serious organised crime 19:59:18 Unknown command, try @list 19:59:29 @lie 19:59:29 Maybe you meant: bid dice elite id let list time 19:59:45 @thyme 19:59:45 Maybe you meant: time type 20:00:13 @tame 20:00:17 Local time for oerjan is Mon Apr 2 21:59:43 2012 20:00:33 @fame 20:00:34 Maybe you meant: fact faq free time 20:00:43 @dame 20:00:43 Maybe you meant: dice time 20:00:45 @shame 20:00:45 Unknown command, try @list 20:00:47 @blame 20:00:47 Unknown command, try @list 20:00:49 @flush 20:00:51 @admin + oerjan 20:00:52 @admin - oerjan 20:00:53 @admin - shachaf 20:00:56 hi 20:01:06 elliott: You're a terrible admin. 20:01:13 @admin - elliott 20:01:13 Not enough privileges 20:01:16 @admin - zzo38 20:01:16 Not enough privileges 20:01:20 @admin - lambdabot 20:01:20 Not enough privileges 20:01:22 is elliott an admin of the lambdabot. 20:01:44 yes 20:01:46 @admin - elliott 20:01:49 @admin + lambdabot 20:01:54 Despite appearances, shachaf isn't. 20:01:55 Put that back. 20:02:11 @admin + zzo38 20:02:14 -!- augur has joined. 20:02:21 @admin + elliott, thx 20:02:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:02:31 @admin + elliott 20:02:33 @admin - shachaf 20:02:33 @admin - elliott 20:02:34 Not enough privileges 20:02:39 @admin - lambdabot 20:02:44 Ooh, a race condition. 20:02:49 elliott won the race. :-( 20:03:07 @admin - elliott 20:03:30 However, you should not set my name to admin (you didn't; because of a space; but nevertheless) because I do not have nick protection set on my account 20:03:40 shachaf: Please stop that. 20:03:58 zzo38: At this point I doubt that'll make much difference. 20:04:01 zzo38: Neither do most of the other admins, which is why shachaf keeps using admin commands. 20:04:11 Or rather "how". 20:04:37 zzo38: You should have nick protection set on your account. 20:05:08 zzo38: What if some really weird person starts pretending to be you? 20:05:30 I think it'd be quite obvious if he suddenly became that normal 20:07:01 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 20:07:05 im heathen 20:07:45 "That's all well and good Chris, but shouldn't you have written that site in Happstack?" -- Michael Snoyman 20:07:46 shachaf: he;lp 20:07:53 If I ever need to become administration of lambdabot or anything like that I will set nick protection; but currently I have no need to be such administrations and so on, so I will just leave it how it is 20:08:38 zzo38: Nick protection wouldn't help, anyway. 20:08:40 It only kicks in after 30s. 20:08:43 -!- nortti has joined. 20:08:44 Stealing zzo38's nick would be like a Turing test. Can YOU behave like zzo? 20:08:44 30s is quite enough time to type "@admin + shachaf". 20:09:07 elliott: Are you able to send /msgs before it kicks in? 20:09:19 RocketJSquirrel: That sounds like a fun game. 20:09:23 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:09:26 zzo38: Teach me how to be like you. 20:09:29 shachaf: You can send @admin + in public... 20:09:36 dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.+Linux+on+8bit 20:09:47 Some people might be able to behave like zzo if they want to. Then again, some people might not. 20:10:01 nortti: Ooool- wait, did I link that in here... 20:10:07 oerjan: F- obviously wrong 20:10:15 WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:10:16 oerjan: Not want to or not be able to? 20:10:19 second sentence was awful 20:10:23 first sentence was better 20:10:49 elliott: is whooshing shachaf good or bad there 20:10:57 Perhaps, they should set lambdabot to +R mode and then disallow public administration commands; that might work. 20:11:19 hmm, that's not really linux on 8-bit though, it's just linux on emulated 32-bit 20:11:24 oerjan: I understood that you were behaving like zzo38 there. 20:11:38 olsner: What's the difference, man? 20:11:40 OK it is good that you understood that. 20:11:41 approximately like saying linux on cpu is linux on 1-bit because it's all transistors 20:11:42 oerjan: I responded in the same way that I would've responded to zzo38 if he had said it instead of you. 20:11:53 olsner: Well, isn't it? 20:12:01 yes 20:12:44 Well then. 20:13:22 nortti: "The raw video is in a few segments, since I had to change camera batteries a few times while filming." X-D 20:14:07 "It takes about 2 hours to boot to bash 20:15:20 +" 20:15:54 But, someone without an account might want to send queries to lambdabot anyways 20:17:40 It would be easy enough for lambdabot just to check whois. 20:18:26 elliott: what if you use different name on the wiki? 20:18:36 zzo38: O, that is true 20:19:12 elliott: Yes. It is what I was thinking of next 20:19:18 shachaf: Yes 20:19:59 zzo38: Yes 20:20:00 (I think there is the 330 line to indicate if you are loggedi n) 20:20:15 -!- derdon has joined. 20:20:41 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 20:22:51 elliott: what if you use different name on the wiki? 20:22:53 norhuh? 20:23:00 oh 20:23:02 dammit nortti 20:23:07 leaving and all that 20:25:49 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7). 20:27:03 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Quit: brb). 20:27:24 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:28:45 -!- elly_ has joined. 20:30:57 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 20:31:21 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 20:31:27 -!- rvchangue has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:31:28 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:31:28 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:31:30 -!- elly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:31:30 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:31:55 -!- rvchangue has joined. 20:32:00 rip lambdabot, "we missed u" 20:32:10 elliott: What did you just do to #haskell? 20:32:56 "i hate u sulamit haskell" -- eliot 20:33:13 Did I do something? 20:33:16 elliott: Whoa, man. You call it that too? 20:33:23 What. 20:33:34 "sulamit haskell" 20:34:05 what 20:34:08 hele sulamitten 20:34:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:34:57 what 20:35:10 a whole lotta sulamits 20:35:12 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 20:35:18 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 20:35:51 what 20:36:04 apparently it's hebrew 20:36:15 It means '#'. 20:36:23 Alternatively, "little ladder". 20:36:46 More like paamyiamyiaymaim neukeudedokaytayim am i right 20:36:47 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9972598/haskell-warp-and-ajax 20:37:15 "am i right" -- eliot 20:37:18 "no" -- universe 20:37:29 @admin - shachaf 20:37:38 * oerjan sympathy eliot 20:37:52 oerjan: hi 20:37:56 im sympathy 20:40:42 * oerjan tries to look up sulamit[th]? and refuels his disgust for web dictionaries that give google hits for words they don't actually have definitions for 20:41:32 oerjan: Try סולמית 20:44:17 -!- Deewiant_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:44:27 that + definition brought me to a page with no definition, a blocked popup and an annoying non-blocked popup which showed up when i tried to click "show all definitions" 20:45:25 Did you try Wiktionary? 20:45:49 does linux routing count as an esoteric language? ;) 20:45:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 20:45:58 O, and you should try Google Translate too if you tried Wiktionary and it did not work. 20:46:06 -!- Deewiant has joined. 20:46:23 i found a place glosbe.com which had a definition 20:46:31 There is also the internet dictionary service, but as far as I know that is English only 20:46:37 haha, proggit's arguing over what should happen if you hash NaN 20:46:39 but what does that have to do with the biblical meaning 20:47:09 I /actually/ think NaN is the only possible return value 20:50:07 Is this good now? class Typeable x => NodeClass x where { showNode :: x -> String; hRender :: x -> Node -> RenderPos -> (PageObjects, RenderPos); vRender :: x -> Node -> RenderPos -> (PageObjects, RenderPos); hPackNode :: x -> ([Node], Glue, Dimen, Dimen, [Node]); vPackNode :: x -> ([Node], Glue, Dimen, Dimen); nodePenalty :: x -> Maybe Int; 20:50:35 ais523: fun fact: there are 3295 users with no undeleted edits and more than zero deleted edits 20:50:45 I just wish there weren't a handful of that set that aren't spambots... 20:50:56 nodeWidth :: x -> Dimen; nodeHeight :: x -> Dimen; nodeDepth :: x -> Dimen; nodeGlueSet :: x -> GlueSet; isNodeDiscardable :: x -> Bool; traverseBox :: Applicative f => (Node -> f Node) -> x -> f Node; showNode _ = "Node;"; hRender x _ y = ([], y + toRenderPos (nodeWidth x)); vRender x _ y = ([], y + toRenderPos (nodeHeight x + nodeDepth x)); hPackNode x = ([Node x], fixedGlue (nodeWidth x), nodeHeight x, nodeDepth x, []); 20:51:35 vPackNode x = ([Node x], fixedGlue (nodeHeight x), nodeDepth x, nodeWidth x); nodePenalty _ = Nothing; nodeWidth _ = 0; nodeHeight _ = 0; nodeDepth _ = 0; nodeGlueSet _ = GlueSet 0 Finite Stretching; isNodeDiscardable _ = False; traverseBox f = f . wrapNode; }; 20:51:58 elliott: Fun fact: If you edit the esolang wiki, you are by definition a spambot. 20:52:24 ^ul ((SPAM )S:^):^ 20:52:24 SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM ...too much output! 20:52:43 shachaf: Have you ever considered saying something that isn't cheap snark? 20:52:51 fungot is a fun got 20:52:53 shachaf: just when i tottered to my feet and began to stagger fnord toward the bottom of the pedestal. the fnord scarf is found on a crag in the dark. it was then that madness took me utterly. an instant later, and i followed them. the phrase was just this: ' fnord! you are off! send back earth's gods to their haunts on unknown kadath whom he sought. when he took down the receiver in the library once more, i feared, had come to 20:52:55 Wait, how do you make fungot talk? 20:52:56 fungot: tlak to me 20:52:56 shachaf: seen one ( for that fabled father of shantaks in the king's dome is fed in the dark. drowsiness, however, the short distance to the right, so that he had 20:52:56 shachaf: but i havent told you the whole story. here i found what seemed much like that by which i had brought in a mechanic from a neighbouring all-night garage, we learned that nothing could be done about those rats. he would be properly confined. if something graver appeared, and before i could investigate there came a 20:53:22 elliott: Yes, but you gotta stay competitive in this channel, you know? 20:53:45 competing with elliott? madness! 20:53:54 elliott: It's an elliott-eat-everybody world out there. 20:55:01 oerjan: I agree -- there's no way I can beat elliott on the cheap snarks. 20:55:07 oerjan: But at least I can stay alive. 20:55:08 -!- nortti has joined. 21:00:03 oerjan: there's some kind of rule against putting five languages on the wiki per day, right? :) 21:01:01 ais523: grr, another joke language with other categories on it 21:01:07 ais523: did we figure out what to do about all that? 21:01:09 no 21:03:13 is “calling functions in data structure” possible in haskell? 21:04:31 well you could say that's sort of what lazy evaluation is 21:04:55 oerjan: note the smart quotes, it's an SO question title :P 21:05:13 O KAY 21:05:21 I see no reason why you couldn't make a tuple of functions 21:05:26 although I may have misunderstood the questino 21:05:44 and the smart quotes are indistinguishable from straight quotes in this font and font size, unless they kern differently 21:05:49 questinos, like questions, except whizzing past at near lightspeed 21:16:00 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:16:29 -!- Frooxius has joined. 21:20:26 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 21:22:59 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:31:48 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 21:33:43 (diff | hist) . . N Robol(in)‎; 21:23 . . (+2,731) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (Created Page) 21:33:45 * elliott cries. 21:33:56 "Robol(in) is an incomplete specification by David Catt (user:David.werecat). It will probably never be updated or implemented." 21:34:13 ais523: wait, didn't we agree that personal very-sketchy WIPs aren't appropriate for articlespace? 21:34:44 we agreed that they were inappropriate for the list of ideas 21:34:51 although I have no particular reason to want them in articlespace 21:35:47 WIPHs 21:36:56 oerjan: work in phantom hoovers? 21:37:05 permanent hiatus 21:37:07 those are all bricks ready to become brains 21:38:29 ais523: I approve of your punishment 21:39:01 elliott: heh 21:39:08 I'm not sure what it actually does, but that's part of the un 21:39:10 *fun 21:39:33 I was originally planning to do an exile judged to increase your reregistration timeout by one day, but it seems I can't do that 21:42:36 -!- elly_ has changed nick to elly. 21:43:13 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9965043/i-have-a-troubles-in-basic-about-the-codes "Did I put MISMATCH in the wrong place?" 21:47:16 ) 21:47:21 -!- augur has joined. 21:51:52 oerjan: ( 21:52:00 O, it makes a sad face, see? 21:52:13 (diff | hist) . . N ELANG‎; 21:50 . . (+4,740) . . David.werecat (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (Created Page) 21:52:13 O_O 21:52:15 }: 21:52:29 I assign oerjan to clean up http://esolangs.org/wiki/ELANG, I've done far too many for one day 21:55:45 Oh, oerjan did Robol(in)? 21:55:50 Of course you realise, this means war. 21:56:48 > ord '|' 21:56:55 ^asc | 21:56:55 124. 21:57:52 oerjan: {{!}}} 21:57:52 hth 21:57:54 *}} 21:58:30 huh 21:58:32 that actually breaks 22:01:41 oerjan: hey how long has /// been featured language. 22:01:47 is it two weeks yet. are we keeping them two weeks or a month. 22:01:50 i don't even know. 22:02:08 i don't know, but you're a day late if you want deadfish next. 22:02:22 or almost two days. 22:02:28 oerjan: ...god dammit, that would have been perfect. 22:02:41 especially since it'd align things to nice even numbers if we run the languages for a month. 22:02:47 WHY DIDN'T YOU SUGGEST THAT AT THE TIME ;__; 22:03:46 since 19 march 22:04:01 elliott: i _did_, you just didn't logread properly. 22:04:56 oerjan: ... 22:05:02 oerjan: i could block you, you know :P 22:05:10 * oerjan whistles innocently 22:05:22 i could ban you, you know :P 22:05:57 then we'd both be happy! 22:06:05 yay! 22:06:09 hmm 22:06:20 ais523: it's more surprising for esolang's real april fool's joke to be a day late, right? 22:06:24 everyone's guard is down on april 2 22:06:33 TRULY 22:06:36 it's not an april fools' joke then 22:06:38 (look out for my new 10-volume work-in-progress, The Art of Rationalisation) 22:06:53 Do you think the functions for the NodeClass for DVI typesetting is good enough by now? 22:07:08 hmm, it went up early in the morning 14 days ago 22:07:16 so now is actually perfect for two weeks 22:07:22 oerjan: are we doing two weeks or a month, which is best, "hlep" 22:09:06 IT'S TOO LATE WE'RE ALL DOOMED 22:09:14 HL;EP!!!!!! 2 WEEKS OR MONTH HEPL 22:09:21 CREYS 22:09:28 @dice 1d2 22:09:39 CURSES, FOILED AGAIN 22:10:09 oerjan: ^bool 22:10:12 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9983840/what-are-the-pros-and-cons-of-enumerators-vs-conduits-vs-pipes can you say "not constructive"? 22:10:18 ^bool 22:10:18 Yes. 22:10:23 2 WEEKS 22:10:36 oerjan: ok but won't we run out 22:10:37 of esolangs 22:10:44 ^bool 22:10:44 No. 22:10:47 that's 26 languages PER YEAR!!! 22:10:49 CERTAINLY NOT. 22:10:54 are there even 26 good esolangs?? 22:10:58 ais523 are there 26 good esolangs 22:11:15 OK RECONSIDERATION: 2 MONTHS 22:11:43 elliott: possibly 22:11:50 month is best IMO 22:11:51 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:11:53 elliott: Do you think the functions for the NodeClass for DVI typesetting is good enough by now? 22:12:06 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 22:12:10 or do what some wikis do, weekly but with repeats every now and then 22:12:17 weekly is far too fast 22:12:43 ais523: a month is probably best for supply, but it seems to me like the /// featured language is getting old already. 22:12:56 at least the idea of it being up another repeat of the period it already has seems awfully stale. 22:13:00 *up for 22:13:29 yes 22:13:48 -!- zzo38 has left. 22:14:06 well, i'm impatient and i want to see deadfish on the main page 22:14:08 so i'm doing it now :P 22:14:34 oerjan: guess who has to help me write a blurb for [[Deadfish]] 22:14:40 shachaf. 22:14:56 ACTION vaguely considers just copying "Deadfish has a way to output things but it has no way to input them! It has only a few commands, only four in total. It is also case-sensitive, and can deal only with integer values when adding or subtracting, however once squared this number increases greatly! You can have several commands per line, at least in the C implementation. Errors are not acknowledged the shell simply adds a newline character! Anyth 22:15:22 but that might give people the wrong impression as to the quality standards of the wiki :P 22:15:30 (ok, the right impression, but the wrong right impression) 22:15:34 what do you me... right 22:15:39 oerjan: No, it's you. 22:15:49 shachaf: IMPSSBLE 22:16:07 M VWL KS JST STPPD WRKNG, Y S 22:16:35 0H N0 22:16:55 ais523: ok, /you/ help me write a blurb for Deadfish 22:17:04 oerjan = ais523?! 22:17:13 hmm, tired 22:17:20 also, I'd have the wrong attitude 22:17:22 oerjan: Are you tired? 22:17:39 elliott: Can I write the blurb for Deathfish? 22:17:44 shachaf: No. 22:17:46 I'd write such a good blurb. 22:17:49 Well, yes. 22:17:51 But I'll reject it. 22:18:00 What if it's good? 22:18:03 oerjan: what's snl.no 22:18:07 shachaf: it's not meant to be good 22:18:16 i don't know 22:18:18 What if it's bad in the right way? 22:18:22 oerjan: ok 22:18:26 shachaf: Go on. 22:18:34 something like "Deadfish is a language originally created as a joke, featuring an internal state of only one integer, that can be decremented, incremented, squared or output. Although incrementing 255 produces 0, higher integers can be produced via squaring. The language became strangely popular, with a large range of interpreters for it written in a range of languages, perhaps due to its simplicity." 22:18:40 oh, it's a norwegian encyclopedia 22:18:48 see, now you'll have to write a better blurb than that 22:18:54 or otherwise you'll have to use mine, and that'd be terrible 22:18:58 * oerjan has an old paper version stored away 22:19:03 Norcyclopedia. 22:19:42 oerjan: ic, apparently it is fudding against wikipedia (im reading no.wikipedia's village pump for some reason) 22:19:46 ais523: boooooooooooring 22:20:18 elliott: well yes it's been in trouble for a while 22:21:28 While no one was looking, Jonathan Todd Skinner invented Deadfish. Deadfish can increment 40 times. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible. 22:22:40 Deadfish can increment 255 times. That's as many as 255 1s. 22:22:45 It can also square, decrement and print. It's catchphrase is "IMPLEMENTATIONS, IMPLEMENTATIONS, IMPLEMENTATIONS". 22:22:48 shachaf: ooh, better. 22:22:57 *Its 22:23:04 fifteen seventeens? 22:23:22 *Someone* in this channel isn't too lazy to factor numbers. 22:23:33 Or maybe he is too lazy, and just named two random numbers that sound approximately right. 22:23:36 I'm too lazy to check. 22:24:00 !perl print 15*17; 22:24:03 255 22:24:22 Wow, what a scam. 22:24:26 * Sgeo hugs poor lambdabot 22:24:29 > 15 * 17 22:24:31 It says it's not perl, but then runs Perl. 22:24:43 Sgeo: You monster. :-( 22:24:47 ....because lambdabot isn't here 22:24:52 Did elliott crash lambdabot? 22:25:05 no 22:25:07 it pinged out 22:25:09 /msg lambdabot @quit 22:25:23 I tried to stop him! 22:25:26 but as shachaf astutely points out I don't need to crash lambdabot to make it go away 22:25:30 i didn't actually do that though 22:25:47 elliott: I'm pretty sure @quit counts as crashing. 22:25:50 It's premature terminating. 22:25:56 I'm premature grammaring. 22:26:13 Deadfish is a very environmentally friendly language, if you like bad smell. 22:26:17 Are you saying you're one of those anti-abortion activists? 22:27:13 Deadfish is the evil mutated offspring of HQ9+. 22:29:12 "Geany is the best open source tool for programmers. But not available for mac." -- answer to question "Mac text/code editor" 22:29:27 A truly compliant Deadfish implementation cannot be aborted. 22:30:47 Grah 22:30:50 The definition of an esolang is a language in which implementing Deadfish is at least somewhat tricky. 22:31:05 Trying to convince myself that Home Row is TC. I mean, it looks it, looks similar enough to BF, but 22:31:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:31:19 I see a trivial way to translate to BF but that's the wrong direction 22:31:24 Sgeo: no nested loops 22:31:28 ...oh 22:31:32 however 22:31:38 j might be able to interact with l in a way to produce "overlapping" loops 22:31:44 jl....l.....l or something 22:31:46 but... 22:31:49 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:31:52 idk 22:32:02 ooh, now I have an idea for an esolang 22:32:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 22:32:22 tape-based, with < > + - from BF, and a "jump to start if nonzero" for program control 22:32:32 the interesting thing would be computational class 22:32:52 Why does this sound vaguely familiar? 22:32:56 IIRC, [prog] is enough for TCness 22:33:01 wait, no 22:33:09 [prog] with some additional instruction in prog is enough or something 22:34:35 ais523: anyway, that's not enough, I don't think 22:34:40 hmm... 22:34:45 xJy is [x]y 22:34:47 erm 22:34:50 xJy is x[x]y 22:34:56 ais523: I don't think there's any way to meaningfully skip code 22:35:07 elliott: exactly, that's the whole point 22:35:11 you have to undo it instead 22:35:12 all you can do is go back to the start, which basically means that at the first "branching" point, you're stuck 22:35:16 < > + - are all reversible 22:35:20 hmm... 22:35:39 OK, put this on the wiki, it's great 22:35:46 there'd be a trivial translation from BF if "jump to start if nonzero" were reversible, but it isn't 22:35:56 which is the sticking point 22:36:06 I'd guess sub-TC 22:36:13 but I have no proof 22:36:19 if only oerjan was here 22:36:20 I shall call it Homing Pigeon 22:36:28 unless someone tells me that that's a stupid name 22:36:30 and probably even then 22:36:36 it's a stupid name 22:36:50 ais523: you should call it brainfuck 22:36:51 elliott: Have you ever considered saying something that isn't cheap snark? 22:36:52 *Brainfuck 22:36:57 whichever one you were planning on 22:37:05 oh, right 22:37:14 I was going to make that one have the same commands as bf, though 22:37:24 yes, but that'll be less confusing 22:37:26 since nobody will talk about it 22:37:36 (if you go with that name, put it at [[Brainfuck (ais523)]], obviously) 22:37:48 I was going to put it at [[Brainfuck (capital B)]] 22:37:56 You should call it Elliott. 22:38:02 Is there a langauge called Elliott? 22:38:05 ais523: but we have precedent for [[Language (author)]]! 22:38:11 shachaf: there's Elliottcraft 22:38:15 elliott: but the name isn't the same 22:38:18 ais523: Haven't Hird of it. 22:38:20 just the software can't tell them apart 22:38:30 shachaf: it's a three-dimensional bully automaton 22:38:36 ais523: how do you know Clue's and Clue's names are the same? 22:38:37 with somewhat complex semantics 22:38:49 I'm not sure it's possible to implement efficiently, sadly 22:39:25 elliott: and string comparison 22:39:26 I suppose you can call it Homing Pigeon if you want, but how many BF derivatives can you expect to make in one life, really? 22:39:38 I've already made two! 22:39:39 ais523: that's as biased as MediaWiki title comparison! 22:39:46 I have an exciting idea for a BF derivative. 22:39:49 (reversible BF, and DoFucK) 22:39:50 *DoFuck 22:39:54 "elliott" means - 22:39:58 "ais523" means > 22:40:04 "oerjan" means [ 22:40:13 ais523: what about Norfuck? 22:40:15 or is that not a BF derivative? 22:40:16 "olsner" means < 22:40:25 ais523: also, kick shachaf before he completes 22:40:29 it's for his own brickbrain protection 22:40:31 "shachaf" means ] 22:40:36 there's not much time! hurry! 22:40:43 "monqy" means + 22:40:45 HURRY 22:40:46 but PH isn't here 22:40:47 "zzo38" means ! 22:40:50 ais523: HE'LL SEE THE LOGS 22:41:00 Wait, I forgot about input and output. 22:41:03 QUICK!!!! 22:41:09 "Phantom_Hoover" means . 22:41:15 !!!! 22:41:17 "pikhq_" means , 22:41:29 "fungot" means ? 22:41:29 shachaf: faint remnant must still lurk down there in the ancient partitions were the worst. i tried fnord but the constant ravings of the two rooms or the hall below me. 22:41:29 ais523: I'm pretty sure that counts as being complicit to murder 22:41:53 BF has a ? command? 22:41:58 #esoteric logs are now a BF derivative. 22:42:06 ais523: Yes. 22:42:12 It's a nop. 22:42:13 ^style 22:42:13 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 22:42:17 knew it 22:42:27 ^style nethack 22:42:28 Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) 22:42:30 fungot feels lucky 22:42:38 fungot? 22:42:38 ais523: they say that the only heavenly body to influence this game." " my dear chap, right on time! we'll just have lunch, and, flinging it away, crying out for grid bugs only exist in a little while even more powerful of all nations, by michael capuzzo) 22:44:24 ^style qwantz 22:44:24 Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011) 22:44:28 fungot: proselylteitse 22:44:29 elliott: and i think to myself: this is a black market, t-rex? there are already a lot, but they're always a good time, because he is! that's why it is such a good joke! you are using the wrong words. i counted myself among the most un-satisfying i'd ever tell him that, of all places, t-rex, but t-rex explained how the bank that only i don't wear pants, so he put it on his stove and heated it, and it got great names for everyon 22:48:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:49:18 hello zzo38 22:49:21 Now I have sent package http://hackage.haskell.org/package/dvi-processing-0.1 on Haskell you can please make DVI programming too. 22:49:23 ais523: what's the best UK ISP? have I asked you that yet? 22:49:35 I don't think you have 22:49:43 but from people I've seen talk about it, there are exactly two good ones 22:49:44 zzo38: Can I please make DVI programming too? 22:49:47 sadly I can't remember which, though 22:49:58 shachaf: Do you have Haskell? If so, then you can try to do so. 22:50:11 zzo38: Can I use lambdabot? 22:50:18 ais523: is one of them Andrews & Arnold (AAISP)? 22:50:30 shachaf: Not for this purpose; lambdabot does not have this package, as far as I know 22:50:36 I don't know 22:50:43 I don't think I've heard of it, so possibly no? 22:50:43 zzo38: What's the best UK ISP? 22:50:48 but I'm really not confident in that answer 22:50:54 zzo38: What if I don't have Haskell? All I have is GHC. 22:51:16 shachaf: GHC is OK; it works with GHC. 22:51:25 btw, I can tell you that Virgin Media's reputation is pretty accurate; fast and good for the typical customer's needs (i.e. Windows, IPv4, no inbound traffic…) when it's working, and reasonably incompetent at fixing it when it goes wrong 22:51:26 And I don't know what is best UK ISP; I do not live in UK. 22:51:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: 42). 22:51:35 zzo38: Isn't Canada the UK? 22:51:37 oh, and ja.net is amazing as usual, but is not a consumer ISP 22:51:40 oops 22:51:41 ais523: Don't Virgin shape torrent traffic? 22:52:07 elliott: quite possibly 22:52:10 ais523: hmm, is the fact that www.ja.net prompts me before giving me a cookie your fault? 22:52:14 it doesn't seem to mind multi-gigabyte downloads, though 22:52:22 also, Virgin Media aren't really an option for me, we don't get cable 22:52:27 and maybe not my fault specifically, but the fault of thousands like me 22:52:32 and their DSL services are... not competitive (and apparently crap) 22:52:38 ais523: there aren't thousands of people like you 22:52:52 in that respect, at least ;) 22:53:31 ais523: well, do any of Sky, AAISP, Zen and XILO (Uno) ring bells? :P 22:53:39 (if Sky doesn't, I'm going to ask you what rock you live under) 22:53:45 Sky! 22:53:49 I know that thing. 22:53:49 not in that respect; I'm aware of Sky, but didn't know they did internet 22:53:52 although it's not surprising 22:53:57 ais523: oh, I suspect one of the ones you counted as good were probably Be 22:53:59 The Sky is Blue. 22:54:02 who aren't available here, annoyingly 22:54:05 perhaps 22:54:12 The Sky is Blue in California. 22:54:14 this was secondhand information in the first place 22:54:16 and I can't rememebr it 22:54:17 It's probably Grey in UKia. 22:54:20 hmm, were 1&1 the others? 22:54:22 Or maybe it's Gray. 22:54:25 the only reason I'm considering Sky is because (a) it's really cheap if you have Sky TV (7.50 pounds/mo), and (b) they don't shape or throttle traffic 22:54:38 the other ISPs are all rather less commercial 22:54:41 if it's that cheap, it's worth trying it and seeing what went wrong 22:54:46 do you have Sky TV? 22:54:48 ais523: 12 month contract 22:54:50 and yes 22:55:02 7.50 pounds/mo? 22:55:02 12 * 7.50 is £90 22:55:04 do 1&1 even do internet access? 22:55:08 yes 22:55:09 That's, like, $2, right? 22:55:20 shachaf: more like $15 22:55:25 per month 22:55:25 ais523: well, OK, 90 pounds is reasonable, but they do local-loop unbundling 22:55:36 ais523: Every month? 22:55:41 ais523: which means it'll cost $more to move off it to a non-LLU service 22:55:46 (like most of the other options i'm considering) 22:55:58 I think it's the cost of setting up a new BT line again, or something, like 90 pounds again or something, but I don't really know 22:56:14 ah, OK 22:56:15 @google 7.50 pounds in dollars 22:56:17 -!- lambdabot has joined. 22:56:22 wait what? 22:56:23 $2/month 22:56:25 -!- lambdabot has quit (Client Quit). 22:56:26 (wrt shachaf and lambdabot) 22:56:33 oh, that's not lambdabot 22:56:35 it's shachaf pretending 22:56:43 SAYS WHO 22:57:07 ais523: I don't believe you about 1&1 22:57:22 elliott: I may be misremembering 22:57:26 so not believing me is a good option 22:57:30 I can't find anything on their website about it, at least :) 22:57:55 about what? 22:58:00 offering internet access 22:58:08 -!- kappabot has joined. 22:58:10 I went to http://1and1.co.uk 22:58:16 and the title was "1&1 Internet" 22:58:16 > 1 + 1 22:58:19 2 22:58:23 @google norway 22:58:27 http://www.norway.org/ 22:58:27 Title: Norway - the official site in the United States 22:58:30 @google what is norway, really? 22:58:33 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-185956/So-Norway-rich.html 22:58:34 Title: So why is Norway rich? | Mail Online 22:58:35 but right, they seem to do serving rather than ISP stuff 22:58:45 ais523: I would just go with AAISP (static IP, native IPv6, good pricing, very tech-savvy), but their usage pricing is annoying (one unit is 50 gigabytes offpeak, but only 2.5 gigabytes peak (9am-6pm mon-fri)) 22:59:07 (you purchase usage in "units") 22:59:09 that's a weird peak time for home internet 22:59:14 that might be reasonable, if I had a reasonable sleep schedule 22:59:19 I'd have assumed that people would be at work then 22:59:24 and thus not using the internet at home 22:59:27 but since I don't, there's no guarantee I won't be downloading tons peaktime and not at all offpeak 22:59:46 ais523: I think that's why you get much less bandwidth then 22:59:48 do you go to school, btw? 22:59:53 admittedly, it makes the "peak" nomenclature strange 23:00:31 ais523: "I don't do drugs. I am drugs." --Salvador da Vinci 23:00:49 --Mark Twain 23:00:52 --elliott 23:02:04 "I don't do school. I am school." 23:02:06 --elliott 23:02:15 Exactly! I am school. 23:02:32 Do school, kids. Unless you want to end up like elliott. 23:03:05 Also, stay in drugs. 23:03:55 shachaf: kappabot is you, right? 23:04:00 @admin + elliott 23:04:00 Not enough privileges 23:04:05 I don't like kappabot. 23:04:11 @admin + elliott 23:04:11 -!- monqy has joined. 23:04:11 @quit 23:04:11 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: requested). 23:04:14 ... 23:04:16 That was too perfect. 23:04:42 hi 23:04:55 -!- kappabot has joined. 23:05:09 shachaf: By the way, I sent that right before your adminning arrived on my screen. 23:05:15 I'm sure. 23:05:42 Thank you for depriving Freenode of valuable I Can't Believe It's Not Lambdabot(R) services 23:05:46 @join #haskell 23:06:11 whose bot is kappabot? 23:06:22 kappabot is a free bot 23:06:37 A free bot over an endofunctorgroupset. 23:06:41 @part #esoteric 23:06:42 Not enough privileges 23:06:45 Can you make me a kappabot admin? 23:06:58 @ignore + elliott 23:07:01 @admin + elliott 23:07:04 @ignore - elliott 23:07:07 > 2+2 23:07:08 4 23:07:09 :( 23:07:10 :D 23:07:12 @admin - shachaf 23:07:16 @admin + shachaf 23:07:18 See, diplomacy. 23:07:20 @admin - elliott 23:07:22 No! 23:07:24 @ignore - elliott 23:07:25 > hi 23:07:26 The fall of diplomacy! 23:07:26 Not in scope: `hi' 23:07:29 kappabot: hoi 23:07:32 kappabot: hi 23:07:43 hi monqy 23:07:50 what does kappabot do 23:07:52 -!- Jafet has joined. 23:07:59 monqy: you're my favourite monqy 23:08:05 mine too 23:08:38 maybe I'll convince aaisp to offer me units that don't vary according to time 23:08:43 elliott: OK, I'm making you an admin so you can tell kappabot to @part when Cale comes back. 23:08:48 shachaf: Thanks. 23:08:50 @admin + elliott 23:08:56 -!- Jafet1 has joined. 23:08:56 You have responsibility now. 23:09:13 @help offline 23:09:18 offline. Start a repl 23:09:22 @offline 23:09:27 @online 23:09:42 I think it gets corrected to @offline. 23:10:00 No, it only does edit distance of 1. 23:10:07 No, it does 2. 23:10:13 @tuma 23:10:16 Don't you know your lambdabotology? 23:10:18 Oh. 23:10:34 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 00:10:13 23:10:38 By the way, if it's going a little slow, it's because I did @listall. 23:10:54 @tuna 23:10:55 not an expression: `' 23:11:09 You can tune a fs, but you can't... 23:11:47 shachaf: How come kappabot has a gazillion notices stored? 23:12:19 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:13:10 elliott: Can I commission a portrait from you? I want it to be titled "shachaf, paraphrased" 23:13:59 ais523: What's the worst UK ISP? 23:14:00 shachaf: OK. 23:14:13 elliott: I look like this: 23:14:20 elliott: hmm, I'd guess someone like BT, but I don't know 23:14:51 http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png 23:15:37 You're ugly. 23:16:15 monqy: "monqy: You're ugly." -- elliott 23:16:56 oh no 23:17:12 @slap elliott 23:17:12 * kappabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps elliott 23:18:32 95.149.229.194 - - [02/Apr/2012:16:14:58 -0700] "GET /sb/1.png HTTP/1.1" 200 136338 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.142 Safari/535.19" 23:18:37 95.149.229.194 - - [02/Apr/2012:16:15:09 -0700] "GET /sb/ HTTP/1.1" 403 198 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.142 Safari/535.19" 23:18:42 95.149.229.194 - - [02/Apr/2012:16:15:11 -0700] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 437 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/18.0.1025.142 Safari/535.19" 23:18:48 Stop poking around my website, elliott. 23:19:23 No. 23:20:07 elliott: Did you know your compute is broadcasting its IP address to every website that you connect to on the Internet?! 23:20:17 Install Bonzi Firewall today! 23:22:37 shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvaA/shachef.png 23:23:03 yay 23:23:03 Wait, I forgot a background. 23:23:10 elliott++ 23:23:14 Delicious kappabot karma. 23:23:24 @karma elliott 23:23:24 elliott has a karma of 1 23:23:28 applause 23:23:39 @karma 23:23:40 You have a karma of 0 23:23:44 @karma kappabot 23:23:45 kappabot has a karma of 0 23:23:53 does elliott have the most karma of anyone 23:24:00 bleh, had to kill firefox 23:24:14 @karma c 23:24:15 c has a karma of 3 23:24:17 website opened around 100 cookie-confirm dialog boxes, and they're all modal, and I couldn't figure out which was the most recent 23:26:55 @karma pmichaud 23:26:55 pmichaud has a karma of 1017 23:27:16 pmichaud++ # so many karmas 23:27:24 @karma lwall 23:27:24 lwall has a karma of 530 23:27:34 lwall++ # perl 23:27:49 shachaf: Almost done! 23:29:05 is kappabot using the same karma database as lambdabot? or does it monitor for karma changes in the same channels? 23:29:22 @which channels are you in kappabot 23:29:22 Unknown command, try @list 23:29:43 @misochans 23:29:43 #esoteric #haskell #stackoverflow weird# 23:29:57 @leave #stackoverflow 23:30:53 @join #haskell-blah 23:30:55 :') 23:31:04 elliott: Put on your typeglasses. 23:31:35 What's the weird# thing 23:31:46 @part weird# 23:31:49 @misochans 23:31:50 #esoteric #haskell #haskell-blah weird# 23:31:51 It's weird#, right? 23:31:56 unsafePerformWeird# 23:32:03 Some Unicode trick? 23:32:10 No, it's just weird#. 23:32:19 elliott: I *believe* the correct spelling is "paraphrozen". 23:32:29 "paraphrosen" in the UK, I guess. 23:32:37 Do you have freesers in the UK which freese things? 23:33:26 Have I mentioned the GIMP is nearly impossible to use? 23:33:58 who here thinks that haskell is one of the best languages. I do have one problem, it is not good for game development . do any of you know what the best language is other than c++ 23:34:00 elliott: 16:32 < johannes__> who here thinks that haskell is one of the best languages. I do have one problem, it is not good for game development . do any of you know what the best language is other than c++ 23:34:04 * shachaf curses. 23:34:05 @slap shachaf 23:34:05 Come on, let's all slap shachaf 23:34:19 @join shachaf 23:34:43 join shachaf x = shachaf (shachaf x) 23:35:11 elliott: Is that portrait finished yet? 23:35:57 Almost. 23:36:02 okay so i should use javanese. Can you give me a bit of code 23:38:34 Gah, I've completely forgotten how to do this. 23:39:32 I'm going to regret becoming involved 23:40:58 shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png 23:43:31 shachaf: I apologise. 23:43:33 @admin - elliott 23:44:19 yay 23:44:27 (That was for http://i.imgur.com/ZUTx3.png.) 23:44:31 (In case you didn't notice.) 23:44:55 bleh, Linode has at least two highly objectionable terms in its ToS 23:45:05 what other VPS people should I look at? 23:45:09 prgmr 23:45:10 ais523: prgmr? 23:45:13 oh, and one in their privacy policy too 23:45:17 * ais523 looks at prgmr 23:45:23 The VPSes suck, though. :p 23:45:35 prgmr is very "we're just some nerds nerdin' up a VPS" 23:45:35 elliott: ...Oh. 23:45:36 ais523: Imagine all the objectionable terms you've agreed to *without* reading them! 23:45:49 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: requested). 23:45:50 * lambdabot (~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com) has joined #haskell 23:45:57 I regain power just as soon as I lose it! 23:46:14 I regain powder just as soon as I lose it! 23:46:49 I wonder if @quit + lambdabot typo-correction has ever lead to any accidents. 23:46:52 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:47:05 oh, prgmr's are much better 23:47:14 I wonder if anyone's ever chosen a VPS provider based on their ToS before? 23:47:18 shachaf: You never thanked me for my finished portrait. :( 23:47:21 elliott: GUESS HOW MAN BANDWIDTHS I'M GETTING 23:47:24 ais523: Stupid people, assuredly. 23:47:28 elliott: THANKS! 23:47:34 shachaf: I don't need to hear about your "man bandwidth", sinner. 23:47:38 FOR THE FINISHED PORTRAIT 23:47:39 Mandwidth. 23:47:42 elliott: GUESS HOW MANY BANDWIDTHS I'M GETTING 23:47:43 YOU'RE WELCOME. 23:47:48 How many? 23:48:06 2.5M/s 23:48:20 It doesn't say M what, though. Megamicrobytes? 23:48:53 Is that in megabits? 23:49:03 ytes 23:49:07 -!- lambdabot has joined. 23:49:07 one thing that's really noticeable: linode give a lot more bandwidth relative to memory than prgmr do, who give a lot more memory relative to bandwidth 23:49:08 Seriously? 23:49:23 Length: 1332645499 (1.2G), 1330483498 (1.2G) remaining 23:49:27 ais523: What were the objectionable terms, out of intense self-hatred? 23:49:31 ais523: I'm faaaaaaaaaairly certain that prgmr doesn't actually meter bandwidth, they just have a number to throw around if they need to. 23:49:52 elliott: That's on the computer I'm using right now, by the way, not a VPS thing. 23:50:02 elliott: indemnification; ability to change ToS at any time without warning; and keeping credit card numbers on file 23:50:07 shachaf: Are you sure you mean megabits and not megabytes? 23:50:29 ais523: I would expect that to be standard; standard; irrelevant 23:50:39 The credit card system has no security. 23:50:48 whereas prgmr just have a change at any time on the AUP, which is not quite as bad as changing it to something ridiculous would merely allow them to terminate the account, which they can do anyway 23:50:58 elliott: but the problem is that if they have my CC number, they can charge me money without my explicit permission 23:51:13 I'm not a fan of standing orders 23:51:27 ais523: Yes. So can every single entity you have ever purchased anything with your credit card from. 23:51:31 and even if indemnification is standard, it's ridiculous 23:51:35 elliott: not legally 23:51:46 So? 23:52:00 ais523: Anyway, there's a specific page to give them money. 23:52:01 elliott: I'm not a fan of having to opt-out to paying someone money, rather than opting in 23:52:05 Just pay in batch and they won't charge you. 23:52:22 (As in, you can pay them $200 and they won't charge you for 10 months.) 23:52:33 ais523: Besides, with prgmr you'll have to use PayPal. 23:52:36 I'm sure you have moral objections to that. 23:52:46 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet. 23:52:51 seriously? how ridiculous 23:53:04 you're right 23:53:15 Have you considered retreating into a cave and never doing anything ever again? 23:53:24 time to look for someone else, I guess 23:53:33 Moral objections to paypal should not override pragmatic objections to the credit card verification system 23:53:49 ais523 has no practical objections, only an infinite supply of moral objections. 23:53:55 * Jafet throws bitcoins in the air, metaphorically. 23:53:58 Jafet: there are pragmatic objections to paypal too, such as the fact that they've closed accounts in the past without refunding the money in them 23:54:39 It's okay, they are a formally audited international banking sys... oh wait. 23:55:24 ais523: By the way, there is not a single VPS provider on the planet who will both promise not to store your credit card, and not outsource their payments to asystem which won't promise not to store your credit card. 23:55:42 ais523: Also, what are you talking about, "not legally"? You don't give Linode the right to charge you $3489394834 by giving them your credit card. 23:55:45 hi ais523 23:55:51 buy your vpses cheap from shachafvps 23:55:51 So your objection to them being able to charge you money without your permission is nonsense. 23:55:56 I don't mind if they outsource it, if the outsourced company doesn't allow them to charge to the credit card 23:56:03 i promise i won't store your credit card 23:56:04 elliott: well, I'm giving them permission by signing up 23:56:14 shachaf: do you run a VPS company? 23:56:26 ais523: very good cheap vps 23:56:36 ais523: Yes, you're giving them permission to charge you $N/month. 23:56:45 yep 23:56:55 So, you are not giving Linode the ability to charge you money without your explicit permission any more than you do when buying anything with a credit card ever. 23:56:58 I'm the sort of person who'd prefer the server to go down if I don't pay, rather than them charging me more money 23:57:03 And, as I said, (As in, you can pay them $200 and they won't charge you for 10 months.) 23:57:09 There's always 365ezone 8-D 23:57:40 elliott: but they'll charge me /after/ 10 months 23:57:51 I think you're missing the point here 23:58:05 ais523: Not if you pay them again within 10 months, or cancel your account. 23:58:15 Are you planning to die in the next 10 months? 23:58:35 no 23:58:50 but the point is, /it requires explicit action from me to stop them charging me again/ 23:58:58 elliott: I think you're missing ais523's point here. 23:58:58 thus, /they are charging me money and it's opt-out not opt-in/ 23:59:12 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:59:12 I understand ais523's point perfectly. It's stupid. 23:59:22 elliott: Can you back up my glowing recommendation of 365ezone? 23:59:24 It's stupid even by ais523's standards. 23:59:31 I mean, have you ever seen glogbackup go down? 23:59:48 RocketJSquirrel: Yes. 2012-04-03: 00:00:02 elliott: LYING SCOUNDREL 00:03:37 ais523: By the way, PayPal works without an account. 00:03:44 But I bet they still won't promise to not keep your credit card on file. 00:09:07 prgmr also offers prepaid cards at conventions, so you could just road-trip 'round from convention to convention buying cards from 'em :) 00:09:40 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 00:10:18 a silly plan that could work, would be to find a UK-based provider, then get a new debit card, and then FOIA away the old one from their files 00:10:25 although that's a nomic-scam-level of legal silliness 00:11:12 RocketJSquirrel: I'm sure ais523 has a moral objection to roads. Or conventions. 00:11:14 Or cards. 00:11:21 Or offerings. 00:11:22 Or paying. 00:11:54 elliott: well, I found a VPS that allows you to pay by cheque 00:12:01 although it has to be made out from a French bank, in euros 00:12:11 ... people have che{ck,que}s? 00:12:32 In my life I have literally never once written a check. 00:12:39 let's see if their other terms are legal 00:12:46 RocketJSquirrel: neither do I, because I don't have a chequebook 00:12:53 however, I've requested them printed for me a couple of times at the bank 00:12:55 ais523: Is this another one of those update lists I can't get off of? 00:13:02 ? 00:13:07 oh, like the tab=8 list? 00:13:11 No. 00:13:18 that's your fault for having an incorrect opinion 00:13:19 Though I suppose that is another example, yes. 00:13:25 But not the one I was thinking of. 00:13:31 however, I've requested them printed for me a couple of times at the bank // yes, this I've done too. 00:13:54 Cheques are more common here than in the US, I believe. 00:14:13 Which is funny since you don't even know how to spell the word *ba-dum lame* 00:15:56 elliott: I thought they were more common in the US 00:16:10 wow, this place also offers 3 and a half nines SLA, it's the highest I've seen 00:16:19 from a budget VPS provider 00:16:23 although that's all reasonably meaningless 00:17:02 RocketJSquirrel: Actualy, 365ezone _don't_ autocharge. 00:17:07 And allow you to pay by credit card. 00:17:13 I just checked their "Terms & Condition" (singular). 00:17:16 Indeed ;) 00:17:18 They don't promise not to store the card, though. 00:17:28 However, I don't believe they qualify for the status of "VPS provider". 00:17:31 More like "VPS peddlar". 00:17:39 *peddler 00:17:50 elliott: Hey! They are best having cheap VPS for good hosts! 00:20:55 bleh, there are actually impossible restrictions in this ToS 00:21:00 such as preventing the IP ending up on a spam blacklist 00:21:12 which is reasonable, but in theory the spam blacklist people can do what they like 00:21:14 and sometimes in practice too 00:21:29 * RocketJSquirrel wonders what ToS ais523 is looking at now ... 00:21:54 gandi's 00:21:57 gandi.net 00:22:00 it took a bit of work to find it 00:22:56 Y'know what pisses me right the eff off? 00:23:02 libc.so has been owned for a year now with no content. 00:23:44 http://libm.so//?gtnjs=13334125907ba0f6ec9971d6d063c918e391bfc4c1 00:24:10 elliott: YEAH I DON'T OWN THAT ONE EITHER THANKS FOR REMINDING ME 00:24:52 RocketJSquirrel: But it's for sale! 00:25:14 But it's not libc :'( 00:26:37 RocketJSquirrel: Can you write my PHP for me? 00:27:30 libf.so returns pings 00:27:34 00:27:53 RocketJSquirrel: Can you write my PHP for me better? 00:28:37 RocketJSquirrel: What's the best nickname for a bot that parrots Esolang recentchanges in here? 00:29:28 libk.so looks like this: http://libk.so 00:29:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to esolan. 00:29:39 -!- esolan has changed nick to esolang. 00:29:50 Well, this is available. 00:30:03 you could consider "solidity", unless we have too much of that already 00:30:33 solidity or esolang? 00:30:44 "esolang" is simpler, at least 00:30:55 solidity is more fun :) 00:32:39 meh, esolang for now 00:33:29 -!- esolang has changed nick to elliott. 00:33:46 OK, gandi's ToS is really reasonable in most respects 00:33:56 "If this message is spam, please contact support@freenode.net with a full copy." --freenode 00:34:06 the spam blacklist thing is the only weird bit, and I guess it's OK to just make a best effort to comply with it 00:34:13 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:34:21 elliott: and that's presumably for the purpose of anyone impersonating them having to add it too 00:34:43 i suspect it's for people who spam registrations to an address 00:34:48 but it's still funny 00:35:11 did you know that MediaWiki's recent-changes streaming support is based on UDP? 00:35:22 no 00:35:31 presumably because they can't just run a daemon, they have to do it in a PHP script which has to terminate quickly, so they just send a UDP packet 00:36:03 it makes sense 00:36:09 what's a good port? 00:36:11 UDP's designed for that sort of thing 00:36:17 port number? port of a program? 00:37:03 port number for the UDP server I'll run 00:37:13 (I'm going to write a Perl program to receive the UDP requests and forward them to IRC) 00:37:18 do you want it root-owned or high? 00:37:24 really, it should be able to use a unix socket 00:37:44 ais523: either is fine; latter is probably preferable, as I can just run the bot as my user 00:37:49 and not have to deal with privilege-dropping code 00:37:57 also, less likely to step on toes 00:38:19 I'd just pick a random number, probably 00:38:31 Go on, then. 00:38:49 21757 00:38:54 (actually random, I just ran a randomizer) 00:39:41 that's not a power of two _or_ a prime! 00:42:03 shachaf: what's the best prime? 00:46:11 shachaf: what's the best prime? 00:46:16 ais523: what's the best prime UK ISP? 00:46:33 elliott: I'm not sure if I can think of any numeric ISPs 00:47:04 @time 00:47:05 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 01:47:01 00:47:16 @time 00:47:18 Local time for ion is Tue Apr 3 03:46:46 2012 00:47:23 * pikhq shall have to create a new ISP: 2^2-1 00:47:31 elliott: 2 00:47:32 pikhq: What's the best prime? 00:47:38 elliott: It's the only even prime. 00:47:38 How does lambdabot know that? By GeoIP? 00:47:49 By asking. 00:48:01 Oh, i should have looked at the status window. :-D 00:48:15 elliott: Objectively? http://primes.utm.edu/curios/page.php?number_id=953 00:48:27 OK, I think gandi meet all my criteria for selecting a VPS provider, which is great 00:48:31 now I'll go look for an even better one 00:48:38 what did RocketJSquirrel suggest again? 00:48:44 pikhq: FTFY: 2²−1 00:48:47 ion: :-( 00:48:56 elliott: Tell ion to take me off /ignore. 00:49:12 wait, "CAPTCHA" is derived from "capture"? 00:49:18 pikhq: Over 1024. 00:49:22 ah, 365ezone.com 00:49:24 elliott: no, it's an acronym 00:49:25 Oh, that's over 1024. 00:49:26 ais523: 365ezone is best deal for quality VPS serving time 00:49:28 ais523: He wasn't suggesting it. 00:49:36 ais523: The term "CAPTCHA" was coined in 2000 by Luis von Ahn, Manuel Blum, Nicholas J. Hopper, and John Langford (all of Carnegie Mellon University). It is an acronym based on the word "capture" and standing for "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart" 00:49:42 "Acronyms are sometimes contrived, that is, deliberately designed to be especially apt for the thing being named (by having a dual meaning or by borrowing the positive connotations of an existing word). Some examples of contrived acronyms are USA PATRIOT, CAN SPAM, CAPTCHA and ACT UP." 00:49:57 ion: $2^2-1$ 00:50:39 they, umm, have a specific Minecraft server option, how ridiculous 00:50:43 ais523: I heard NetHack 4.2.0 was released. 00:50:56 ais523: How is that ridiculous? 00:50:57 All the potheads rejoiced? 00:50:59 Setting Bukkit up is annoying. 00:51:05 Especially if you've never used Linux. 00:51:13 elliott: I'm amazed that it's a large enough market for it to be worth money to be in 00:51:47 ais523: Seriously? Over 5 million people have bought Minecraft. 00:51:48 @time do_you_take_a_parameter 00:51:54 It's made Notch a multi-millionaire. 00:52:02 It's had its own bloody conference in Vegas. It's huge. 00:52:16 *convention 00:52:19 What's the difference??? 00:52:21 Con, con, all the same. 00:52:34 *condominium 00:52:47 I would totally buy a Minecraft condominium. 00:53:18 Minecraft is one of the top 10 best-selling PC games by now, isn't it? 00:53:22 What about a Minecraft condom? I HAD TO GO THERE OK. 00:53:32 @time preflex 00:53:33 Local time for preflex is 2012-04-03 00:53WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR? 00:54:06 !haskell randomRIO (1,1) 00:54:13 !haskell randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:17 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX18901.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level 00:54:18 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX18945.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level 00:54:20 It's a Minecraft conscription. If you live in Vegas, there's a decent chance you'll get conscripted into the Minecraft army. 00:54:28 RocketJSquirrel: Laaame 00:54:31 !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:33 !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:34 !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:34 !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:36 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX19041.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO' 00:54:38 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX19132.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO' 00:54:39 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX19145.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO' 00:54:40 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX19146.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO' 00:54:40 X_X 00:54:51 !haskell import System.Random; main = print $ randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:53 !haskell import System.Random; main = print $ randomRIO (1,2) 00:54:56 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX19259.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for. 00:54:58 ​\ /tmp/runghcXXXX19265.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for. 00:55:03 RocketJSquirrel: You're fucking kidding me. 00:55:14 Randomness is for losers. 00:55:21 365ezone do not inspire me with confidence about their competence 00:55:39 ais523: 365ezone having best deals for VPS in your good hosting service! 00:55:43 and the prices are very low by comparison to some other places 00:56:02 and they have a really weird list of things that they ban (roleplaying games on shared servers, for instance) 00:56:03 I pay $20/yr for glogbackup. 00:56:40 shachaf: Did you know Adam Chlipala is banned from #haskell???? 00:56:41 I do! 00:56:43 Did. 00:56:43 RocketJSquirrel: is it on a shared server? or a master server? 00:56:55 backups are also against the TOS on shared servers, for reasons I can't figure out 00:57:06 @time ubuntulog 00:57:07 Local time for ubuntulog is Tue Apr 3 00:56:36 2012 00:57:26 elliott: Smerdyakov? Yep. 00:57:37 So anyone can make lambdabot flood anyone with CTCP TIME queries? Someone should try that with one of Freenode’s ircops. 00:57:38 elliott: Did you know I've met Adam Chlipala IN REAL LIFE!!!!? 00:57:40 ais523: VPS 00:57:42 shachaf: See, I knew Smerdyakov is banned from #haskell. But I had no idea who that was. 00:57:47 But I knew who Adam Chlipala was! 00:57:55 And then someone said they were him and I was like whooooaaaa but he seems so cool. 00:57:57 The end. 00:58:04 ion: @time Plazma 00:58:13 (^^^ AWESOME SUPER-GREAT REFERENCE) 00:58:20 It was Plazma, right? 00:58:22 I forget their nick. 00:58:50 ais523: Please tell me you realize I am not suggesting you actually use 365ezone X_X 00:58:50 17:51 What's the time where you are? 00:58:55 17:58 03:58 00:59:01 RocketJSquirrel: ah, OK 00:59:07 what's your opinion of them, anyway? 00:59:26 shachaf: That was proprietary information you just leaked. 01:00:11 Prelude Math.NumberTheory.Primes.Testing System.Random> let pick = randomRIO (1024,65536) >>= \p -> if isPrime p then return p else pick 01:00:12 HERE WE GO 01:00:25 8147. That's a nice port. 01:00:27 Does anything use that? 01:00:57 elliott: google it? 01:01:37 More like shoogle it 01:01:46 IANA's port assignments are apparently in XML form. 01:02:07 Makes sense, you can conveniently process them with XSLT. 01:02:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:02:39 @downforeveryoneorjustme http://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xml 01:02:39 Unknown command, try @list 01:02:42 @hlep 01:02:42 Maybe you meant: help let slap 01:02:45 @slep 01:02:46 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch 01:02:52 me 2 01:03:16 @slap self 01:03:17 go slap self yourself 01:03:26 @slep lambdabot 01:03:26 * lambdabot slaps lambdabot with a slab of concrete 01:03:29 @slep lambdabot 01:03:29 * lambdabot will count to five... 01:03:30 @slep lambdabot 01:03:30 * lambdabot places her fist firmly on lambdabot's jaw 01:03:35 ouche 01:03:38 @slep lambdabot 01:03:38 *SMACK*, *SLAM*, take that lambdabot! 01:03:41 @slep lambdabot 01:03:41 I don't perform such side effects on command! 01:03:42 @slep lambdabot 01:03:43 I'd rather not; lambdabot looks rather dangerous. 01:03:46 agreed 01:04:33 elliott@solidity:~$ nc -u -l -p 8147 01:04:33 14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31735&oldid=31734 5* 03Ehird 5* (+13) 10test 01:04:34 yay 01:05:17 ais523: what's POE like 01:05:19 cpan 01:05:25 elliott: POE = ? 01:05:57 how do you sockets in perl help thanks 01:06:01 poe = http://poe.perl.org/ 01:06:09 hmm, not sure I've ever tried 01:07:24 how do you sneckets in perl thenks 01:11:05 -!- esolang has joined. 01:11:26 hmm, that didn't work 01:11:29 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:11:49 oh 01:11:52 hmm 01:12:35 -!- esolang has joined. 01:12:45 why doesn't it work :/ 01:12:54 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:13:21 aha, hmm 01:13:46 -!- esolang has joined. 01:13:54 dsfkjsdflksdf 01:13:54 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:14:01 -!- esolang has joined. 01:14:07 wtffff 01:14:11 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:14:22 ais523: why does my bot not work :( 01:14:34 Is your bot lambdabot? 01:14:40 yes 01:16:23 elliott: The answer is: Because it's lambdabot. 01:23:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:24:04 NICK esolang 01:24:04 USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/ 01:24:04 JOIN #esoteric 01:24:04 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10 01:24:06 Why wouldn't this work? 01:24:10 Seriously, I honestly can't tell. 01:24:16 Answers from someome other than shachaf please. 01:25:20 elliott: I don't think you can have spaces in the realname? 01:25:22 did you write it in Haskell? 01:25:28 I might be wrong. It joined the channel, so I'm probably wrong. 01:25:38 you can have spaces in teh realname 01:25:44 did you get an error message back? 01:25:47 shachaf: it wouldn't be much of a realname without 01:25:52 ais523: no, that privmsg just gets dropped 01:25:56 and it keeps receiving messages 01:26:07 note that the privmsg has ansi codes in but i've piped it to cat -v and it still doesn't work 01:26:14 it /looks/ correct 01:26:43 elliott: Did you try getting rid of the ANSI codes? 01:27:08 note that the privmsg has ansi codes in but i've piped it to cat -v and it still doesn't work 01:27:11 Same fucking line. 01:27:33 cat -v considered harmful 01:28:18 -!- esolang has joined. 01:28:28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10 01:28:30 14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10 01:28:31 Er. 01:28:31 shachaf: Get that out. 01:28:42 -!- esolang has quit (Client Quit). 01:28:49 -!- esolang has joined. 01:28:50 a privmsg 01:28:55 elliott: Nope, your IRC isn't broken. 01:29:04 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:29:37 OK, now it's acting like it's missing the trailing newline. 01:29:41 Except adding "; echo" doesn't help either. 01:29:54 elliott: Add a new line with QUIT at the end? 01:29:58 -!- esolang has joined. 01:29:58 a privmsg 01:30:29 shachaf: OK. 01:30:30 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:30:41 -!- esolang has joined. 01:30:41 a privmsg 01:30:45 No quit. 01:30:51 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:31:08 NICK esolang 01:31:08 USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/ 01:31:08 JOIN #esoteric 01:31:08 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg 01:31:09 01:31:17 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg 01:31:17 01:31:18 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^C14[[^C07Esolang:Sandbox^C14]]^C4 ^C10 ^C02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31749&oldid=31748^C ^C5*^C ^C03Ehird^C ^C5*^C (+1) ^C10^C 01:31:18 QUIT :outta here 01:31:24 With two blank lines before the QUIT. 01:31:35 I don't know why it doesn't say anything before I hit enter. 01:31:50 elliott: Did you try \r\n?! 01:32:19 I know for a fact that freenode doesn't require \r. 01:32:43 It's true! 01:36:06 elliott: Did you try \n\n?! 01:36:20 Sigh. 01:37:31 elliott: How are you sending these commands, exactly? 01:37:33 Maybe it's buffering. 01:37:38 Are you typing them in nc in the terminal? 01:38:54 (echo "PASS $(cat esolang-bot-password)"; echo 'NICK esolang'; echo 'USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/'; echo 'JOIN #esoteric'; echo 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg'; while true; do nc -u -l -p 8147 | sed 's/^/PRIVMSG #esoteric :/'; echo; echo; echo 'QUIT :outta here'; done) | cat -v | nc irc.freenode.net 6667 01:41:51 @time 01:41:51 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 02:41:47 01:44:34 @time shachaf 01:44:35 Local time for shachaf is Mon Apr 2 18:44:04 2012 01:44:46 Well that's clearly the best bot X-D 01:47:15 What's that while true for? 01:48:31 -!- esolang has joined. 01:48:32 a privmsg 01:48:37 esolang: hi 01:48:42 `welcome esolang 01:48:45 `WELCOME ESOLANG 01:48:45 esolang: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 01:48:49 ESOLANG: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE 01:49:55 What's that while true for? 01:49:59 It disconnects after receiving a UDP message. 01:50:02 disconnects = exits 01:50:02 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:50:20 Right, so what's it for? 01:50:26 Never mind, I don't feel like debugging IRC bts. 01:55:09 I want to facepalm at Conservapedia 01:55:18 "The theory of an old universe is contradicted again, this time by discovery of planets that formed "at dawn of universe." [1] How many counterexamples to an Old Earth does an atheist need in order to start opening his mind?" 01:55:28 The [1] links to http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0330/Planets-found-at-dawn-of-universe-but-their-existence-is-a-mystery 01:55:38 Do they even READ the articles, or just use the headlines? 01:55:46 Because that is, admittedly, perhaps a misleading headline 01:56:42 ALSO: csmonitor.com lol 01:57:50 iirc CS Monitor is actually decent despite the name 01:58:07 You recall wrong. 01:58:39 *You recall wrongly. 01:58:48 GRAMMAR NAZI TO THE RESCUE! 01:59:31 Stephen Fry would like to have a word 02:01:06 law of wikis: every subject has exactly one wikia, one non-wikia wiki, and a wikipedia article 02:02:03 FOR INSTANCE mlp.wikia.com, mylittlewiki.com, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Friendship_is_Magic 02:02:57 Damn, my guess at the non-wikia wiki was wrong X-D 02:03:17 It's mylittlewiki.org , and that appears less focused on FiM (i.e. focused on terrible garbage that we should all forget ever existed) 02:12:08 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:35:49 Hmm, I think Creatures follows that pattern 02:35:57 There was a very old wiki before the wikia 02:36:16 iirc 02:37:16 I think it's dead now 02:39:20 RocketJSquirrel: The Christian Science Monitor, contrary to its name, is a relatively well-respected journalistic entity. 02:40:42 It's only incidentally related to the Church of Christ, Scientist, and that only because the founder of both believed strongly in good journalism. 02:41:51 yeah csm is legit 02:42:04 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:42:20 -!- MDude has joined. 02:43:59 aren't the christian scientists the faith healing peeps 02:44:24 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Ccseal.PNG best logo imo 02:44:27 Yes, they are complete wakos. 02:44:43 It just happens that this has no impact on their newspaper. 02:45:10 unless the subject being reported about is them, I'd wager 02:48:57 The church doesn't really have much influence on their writing, and their editors generally aren't Christian Scientists. 02:49:02 Welp, just found the worst-spelled word in my spelling dictionary. 02:49:07 "boogieing" 02:49:12 I ... I cannot tolerate that spelling. 02:49:42 What's the correct spelling? 02:49:46 It's really a damned odd thing. 02:49:49 B T W: 02:49:55 I've been considering switching to en-GB-x-oed. 02:49:58 Would y'all disown me? 02:50:04 (y'all is perfectly valid en-GB-x-oed tyvm) 02:50:07 Purely secular reporting by a church. 02:50:08 elliott: According to my spelling dictionary, "boogieing" 02:50:10 I don't know what else. 02:50:14 elliott: "x-oed" = ? 02:50:29 pikhq: Sorry, en-GB-oed. 02:50:35 Forgot it was official. 02:50:44 Boogiïng is plausible 8-D 02:51:03 So, the Oxford spellings. 02:51:29 RocketJSquirrel: Booing 02:51:30 *Boogin 02:51:31 *Booging 02:51:32 fuck 02:51:33 Presumably oed is just "every word anyone has ever written in an otherwise-English context" 02:51:44 Yeah, definitely "booing" 02:51:56 RocketJSquirrel: en-GB-oed is en-GB using -ize suffices. 02:52:00 RocketJSquirrel: And with the OED-prefered spelling, where there are multiple choices. 02:52:07 e.g. -ize suffixes. 02:52:11 For etymological and phonetic reasons. 02:52:21 (Note that this only applies to -ize; it's still "analyse") 02:52:52 And it's still "programme". 02:53:10 pikhq: Yeah, but I say program anyway >_> 02:53:18 I consider programme to refer to only the non-computer meanings. 02:53:28 Oh, OED. 02:53:30 Why you gotta. 02:53:36 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985988/haskell-pattern-matching-disappointed 02:53:38 What a fucking moron. 02:53:42 Apparently that's actually proper UK English. "program" refers to a computer program exclusively. 02:53:49 RocketJSquirrel: "[I]n mod.F. the suffix has become -iser, alike in words from Greek, as baptiser, évangéliser, organiser, and those formed after them from L., as civiliser, cicatriser, humaniser. Hence, some have used the spelling -ise in Eng., as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or Eng. from L. elements, retaining -ize for those of Gr. composition. But the suffix itself, whatever the element to wh 02:53:49 ich it is added, is in its origin the Gr. -ιζειν, L. -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize. (In the Gr. -ιζ-, the i was short, so originally in L., but the double consonant z (= dz, ts) made the syllable long; when the z 02:53:50 became a simple consonant, (-idz) became īz, whence Eng. (-aɪz).)" 02:54:00 Because spelling needs to be less consistent. :) 02:56:14 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985988/haskell-pattern-matching-disappointed 02:56:17 I feel the need to reiterate: 02:56:19 What a fucking moron. 02:56:36 "I typed in wrong code and the compiler errored. HASKELL SUCKS" 02:59:51 Well, the code makes sense in other languages, is I think the point 03:00:34 kmc: Tell me not to link that question in #haskell. 03:00:41 I'm so tempted. But then #haskell might get even worse. 03:00:44 ??? help 03:01:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:01:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:04:52 elliott: I think that is just a troll post. 03:04:58 No need to get annoyed. 03:05:41 shachaf: I know it is. I'm not actually annoyed. 03:06:05 It's therapeutic to call people fucking morons. You should try it sometime. 03:06:19 O. I thought that you were actually annoyed. 03:06:27 elliott: I've never done it in my life. 03:06:53 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985987/t-or-f-tcp-socket-method-is-unsuitable-for-mobile-devices 03:06:55 The best question. 03:07:10 * shachaf is no good at zzoing. 03:07:32 There should be a game where a bunch of people pretend to be zzo38 and they get points based on how realistic they are. 03:07:33 shachaf: O, is that so. OK. 03:07:37 You could call it a ZZORPG. 03:07:49 I'm afraid zzoing is best left to zzo38. At least, I think so. 03:08:18 In Astrolog, I see the ecliptic declension is measured in radians. In my opinion, they should have it be any system of measurement, such as SI, metric, or even something you made up yourself, not just radians. 03:08:48 * elliott likes to think he's quite good at this. 03:09:03 elliott: What's Astrolog? 03:09:18 `pastlog No output. 03:10:08 :( 03:10:09 -!- itidus21 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:10:42 elliott: Being on-topic is part of the point. 03:10:49 Cnay ou try to make a language like Haskell but with many thing different, such as, more notation, macros (like Template Haskell but different), no layout, and extensible data? 03:10:54 (Admittedly you don't *always* want to be on-topic.) 03:10:54 Fuck 03:10:56 Can you try to make a language like Haskell but with many thing different, such as, more notation, macros (like Template Haskell but different), no layout, and extensible data? 03:11:06 I dunno, cnay ou? 03:11:28 a true msyetry 03:11:36 O. Now I see. 03:11:46 `quote unreasonabl 03:11:47 `quote unreasonable 03:11:50 No output. 03:12:01 `quote peple 03:12:03 No output. 03:12:05 139) Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple 03:12:22 That's my favourite version of that quote. 03:13:36 good version 03:14:16 "good version" -- monqy 03:15:01 Does zzo38 read logs? 03:15:04 (Hi zzo38!) 03:15:12 hi zzo38 03:15:30 I think I just realized the answer to my own question. 03:15:35 The only log zzo38 reads is... 03:15:40 The Astrolog 03:15:46 -!- emcc has joined. 03:17:54 `welcome emcc 03:17:57 emcc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 03:21:37 -!- emcc has left. 03:21:49 fuck, i updated chromium using its internal thingy, and now it's being laggy and dumb 03:22:06 browsers have so much code churn that every update fixes some bugs and introduces new ones 03:22:13 so if you are happy with your current situation, don't upgrade ;P 03:25:31 kmc: "Updated Chromium"? It does that automatically. Oh, Chromium, not Chrome. 03:25:38 Does Chromium have an internal update thing? I don't think so. 03:25:41 Maybe on Windows. 03:25:45 Or OS X, I guess. 03:27:25 it does 03:27:27 i used it 03:27:29 foolishly 03:27:59 Where is it? 03:28:02 in the menu 03:28:03 there's only one 03:28:10 Which item? 03:28:16 Also, you could always just tell your distro to reinstall the package :P 03:28:17 "update chromium" or some shit 03:28:19 it showed up 03:28:22 I have no such item. 03:28:22 yeah maybe i'll do that 03:28:33 it showed up 03:28:37 when i had an update ;P 03:28:41 * elliott is on 18.0.1025.142, fwiw. 03:28:49 as a user i feel like I'm getting screwed by some dick-measuring contest between google and mozilla 03:28:49 Maybe Arch disable the menu item or something. 03:28:59 i wish they would stop adding shiny for a while, maybe fix some bugs 03:29:03 Chrome's versioning scheme is reasonable. 03:29:06 Firefox's is not. 03:29:08 maybe even (gasp!) maintain a stable tree that gets bugfixes 03:29:17 kmc: Erm, Chrome does that. 03:29:20 That's what all the channels are about. 03:29:22 oh? 03:29:30 kmc: Your distro might be providing you the dev channel. 03:29:35 Mine does that, because ARCH BLEEDING EDGE FOREVER. 03:29:55 I just had either the best or worst idea ever 03:29:55 There's actually stable, beta, dev, canary channels or something like that, and stable is the Chrome everyone on Windows/OS X gets unless they do something special. 03:30:12 * pikhq_ mutters at presentationing 03:30:17 Chrome's versioning scheme works because it doesn't really have "releases", on Windows and OS X it literally just updates silently, you never even see the version unless you look for it... with Firefox they still make a big deal out of every release 03:30:23 which is just ridiculous with the kind of schedule they go at now 03:30:38 Yeah... 03:30:46 so the stable channel actually gets new bugfixes without pulling every new feature? 03:30:56 or is it just an older version on the same linear sequence 03:31:26 kmc: Well, it gets bugfixes. Then it gets the new features periodically. 03:31:31 so one of the problems with voice recognition is that it is really difficult to decontextualize symbols 03:31:35 It's not just "50 revisions ago", no. 03:31:45 e.g. "join #esoteric" 03:31:50 It's basically Debian testing vs. Debian unstable vs. Debian experimental. 03:31:54 the solution is to have verbal escapes 03:32:05 "join pound esoteric" 03:32:16 hey, what's a good Unicode character to use to separate lines in a terminal in a linear setting? 03:32:21 $ ls foo.c bar.c 03:32:43 there's a symbol for "carriage return" no? 03:32:54 ☃ 03:33:36 PFSC updated several times and nobody told me :( 03:33:38 hi monqy 03:33:39 kmc: oh, yes, I think so 03:33:43 but wouldn't LF be more appropriate? 03:33:49 hi shachaf 03:33:51 ␍ 03:34:04 you all know it to be true 03:34:10 ␊ 03:34:13 WHICH ONE ;_; 03:34:16 ␊ 03:34:19 Definitely that. 03:34:28 ␤ 03:34:29 Would a pilcrow be inappropriate? That thing is a little small. 03:34:37 ↵ 03:34:38 haha 03:34:48 pilcrow would be inappropriate 03:35:28 I would go with U+244A: ⑊ 03:35:42 coppro: oh, that's a good one 03:35:47 I went with RIGHT ARROW in the end 03:35:53 since it was describing a result 03:36:06 oh, that's OCR DOUBLE BACKSLASH 03:36:07 so unsemanti 03:36:08 c 03:36:24 ⑁ 03:36:31 OCR CHAIR 03:36:36 so semanti 03:36:36 c 03:36:46 elliott: do you know of Fake Unicode Consortium? 03:37:54 Yes. 03:38:23 @tyme 03:38:23 Maybe you meant: time type 03:38:26 @time 03:38:26 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:38:23 03:38:33 Wait, why didn't that work? 03:38:37 What does lambdabot *do* to typo-correct? 03:38:58 @thyme 03:38:58 Maybe you meant: time type 03:39:07 @hi 03:39:10 @tine 03:39:10 elliott: Edit distance of two unless that's ambiguous. 03:39:13 Local time for ion is Tue Apr 3 06:38:40 2012 03:39:15 RocketJSquirrel: Ohh, right. 03:39:21 Silly babmguity. 03:39:25 @tim 03:39:27 ion: Go to bed. 03:39:28 Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Apr 2 21:38:55 2012 03:39:31 @tm 03:39:31 Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc thx time v wn 03:39:34 @thx 03:39:34 you are welcome 03:39:38 @ft 03:39:39 Done. 03:39:41 help 03:39:46 elliott: A crapload of homework to finish. It looks like i won’t make the deadline, though. 03:40:10 So might as well go to sleep. :-P Except that i’ve taken some caffeine. 03:42:30 I hope time is going backwards now. 03:42:31 @tіmе 03:42:33 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:12:03 03:42:37 Yay! 03:42:57 oh no 03:42:59 what did you do 03:43:04 to time 03:43:13 I just spun the clock backwards. 03:44:28 @time monqy 03:44:31 Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 2 20:43:58 2012 03:44:50 @time monqy 03:44:51 Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 3 04:24:09 2012 03:44:58 Gosh. Time goes fast in America. 03:45:15 -!- calamari has joined. 03:46:41 @time monqy 03:46:43 Global time for monqy is Sat Apr 47 11:11:666 2012 03:46:48 Gosh. 03:47:16 Shame it won't hand you Discordian dates. 03:47:35 Today is Boomtime, the 19th day of Discord in the YOLD 3178 03:52:29 pikhq_: It will if your client does. 03:53:02 @time elliott 03:53:02 Local time for elliott is hello 03:53:17 Hmm. Perhaps I should run irssi under sdate, then. 03:53:40 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: travels...). 03:53:53 ++ 03:55:12 wtf 03:55:13 arch doesnt have sdate 03:55:21 Of course, arguably Eternal September dates should be fixed... 03:55:28 AOL stopped providing Usenet. 03:55:30 elliott: ddate 03:55:31 ;) 03:55:54 ion: ddate is for losers. 03:56:32 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:56:41 -!- elliott has joined. 03:56:44 @time 03:56:44 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:56:40 03:56:47 What? 03:56:53 I'm running it under sdate. 03:56:56 Stupid client. 03:57:03 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 03:57:10 -!- elliott has joined. 03:57:18 elliott: You should ask for your money back. 03:57:47 elly: You should be named ellyott. 03:58:09 freenode took down their apr fools privacy policy page and i never got a chance to read it. can anyone summarize? 03:58:39 It was freenode, and it was an April Fools joke, so the chances of it being funny or worth your time are 0. 03:58:45 H - T - H 03:59:32 I didn't even realize Freenode did an April Fools prank. 03:59:36 I was too busy ponying pony. 03:59:52 I was too busy procrastinating. 04:00:05 Also cmakoing, but mostly procrastinating. 04:00:49 I was too busy derpying flockdraw 04:01:00 -y 04:01:44 I... spent a considerable portion of April 1st trying to work around IE8 being a terrible piece of shit. 04:01:48 I just realised that now. 04:01:58 elliott: So you got pranked pretty hard then. 04:02:38 my grandma was still using ie8.. got her moved over to firefox today 04:02:49 ddate is for lovers 04:03:21 RocketJSquirrel: Guess I'll have to block oerjan. 04:03:40 Sounds about right. 04:04:20 RocketJSquirrel: I could block oerjan for 1 second, you know. 04:04:22 I could do that. 04:07:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Oran This is the bestest article ever 04:07:14 *ever. 04:09:17 I like how you feel the need to correct your punctuation in a sentence in which you used the word "bestest". 04:09:40 @wn bestest 04:09:41 No match for "bestest". 04:09:47 RocketJSquirrel: en-GB-oed-x-elliott 04:09:57 Anyway, the missing dot changes the tone. 04:13:59 elliott, monqy shachaf UPDATE. ALSO ALBUM 04:14:13 (shachef automatically removed from update list) 04:17:21 What? 04:17:22 No. 04:17:25 Nobody gets removed from the update list. 04:17:30 That's unfair. 04:18:34 shachaf didn't really want to be on i 04:18:35 it 04:19:45 No. Everybody wants to be on the update list. 04:19:48 Cease and desist immediately. 04:23:41 Sgeo: Yay! 04:23:45 Sgeo++ 04:23:57 @sgeosnack 04:23:58 Unknown command, try @list 04:24:55 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:25:07 See? 04:25:10 shachaf is happy to be on the list. 04:25:44 I'm happy to be off the update list. 04:26:10 I'm also happy for the release of the new albumen. 04:29:34 No. 04:29:38 You're happy to be on the update list. 04:29:41 monqy: Correct shachaf and Sgeo. 04:30:23 monqy: Do you want to be on the update list? 04:32:03 Yes. 04:33:28 TELL ME TO GO TO SLEEP THAnks 04:36:41 help 04:36:44 @time 04:36:45 Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 05:36:41 04:36:46 NO 04:37:17 elliott: GO TO SLEEP TAnks 04:37:22 help 04:37:29 TAnks 04:38:32 -!- MSleep has joined. 04:39:10 @quit 04:40:53 goodbye communism 04:40:54 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:41:07 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:49:39 hi im bakcc 04:50:19 shachaf: you want to be on the update list 04:50:24 Sgeo: shachaf wants to be on the update list 05:03:11 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asiekierka-David. 05:13:44 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:20:22 -!- itidus21 has joined. 05:21:59 `pastlog No output. 05:30:42 itidus21: you might want to try again, HackEgo sometimes screws up the first itme 05:30:43 *time 05:31:03 ok but i don't know what i am looking for 05:31:05 `pastlog 2011-10-31.txt:01:52:13: I figured out how to use Astrolog to compute the date of Chinese New Year. 05:31:54 whoa 05:38:55 monqy: hi 05:39:15 monqy: what if i wan't to be be on the update list 05:39:22 "wan't" stands for "want not", by the way. 05:41:09 but you don't wan't 05:41:22 monqy: what if i dont wan't 05:41:29 dont wan't = don't want 05:41:44 you don't dont wan't 05:43:10 i think i do dont wan't 05:43:56 you think wrong 05:44:11 i think i think wron'g 05:57:13 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:13:17 -!- itidus21 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:17:39 13:30 * elliott wants to see the programs that generated http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_anticipation.bfjoust and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust 06:18:47 elliott: the standard "defend" code is generated by a very very short matlab program. all the structure and attacky stuff was handcoded. 06:26:49 bfjoust programs are... 06:27:53 ... generated by matlab 06:39:05 -!- Shyguy33 has joined. 06:40:05 -!- Shyguy33 has left. 07:01:12 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:11:55 -!- kmc has joined. 07:16:49 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:20:43 -!- Deewiant has joined. 07:28:07 -!- coppro has joined. 07:28:35 -!- derdon has joined. 07:38:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:40:49 -!- Urist_McTiktalik has changed nick to Urist_McLicktali. 07:41:07 -!- Urist_McLicktali has changed nick to Urist_McTiktalik. 07:42:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 07:56:38 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:10:23 -!- itidus21 has joined. 08:20:45 -!- azaq23 has joined. 08:26:15 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:26:39 -!- azaq23 has joined. 08:32:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:48:19 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:48:23 Hello 08:49:06 This David.werecatt seems... 08:49:16 Esolangy 08:52:16 -!- cheater_ has joined. 08:52:22 -!- cheater has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:53:45 Also, if we're going to change the featured language every 2 weeks, we're a day late 08:56:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:05:33 -!- fizziew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:31:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:32:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:36:33 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:42:33 Hello 09:42:45 the ho 09:43:14 helloerjan 09:43:27 Moerjan than ever before. 09:43:44 hichaf 09:44:25 http://i.imgur.com/ZUTx3.png 09:44:36 That's me! 09:46:47 wait, you tell facts? 09:47:31 Fact: I tell facts. 10:02:33 * oerjan I feel sick :( 10:02:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: So sick I cannot distinguish /me and /quit). 10:09:22 -!- Ngevd has joined. 10:09:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:13:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:22:07 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 10:42:35 -!- fizziew has joined. 10:42:39 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb. 10:42:41 Hello 10:44:09 hi! in know it's kind of out of topic, but maybe you guys can help.. i'm looking for some complete(?) ready-to-go wrapping code to use for interop-operations with c# on the windows API. (because i'm tired of looking up the code for every single function and/or struct as listed on pinvoke.net for example). would you recommend/suggest a source where i could find such code? 10:52:44 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 10:52:44 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 10:52:45 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 10:57:00 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:57:19 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 11:12:25 So I am in America everything is weird. 11:12:25 Phantom_Hoover: You have 19 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 11:15:48 Phantom_Hoover, why are you in America? 11:16:18 Why aren't you in America? 11:16:53 Because I am trapped in elliott's basement 11:18:28 Trapped? 11:18:29 -!- coppro has joined. 11:18:36 Yes 11:18:38 You mean you finally found your way to his house? 11:18:50 And then broke into the basement only to discover it's locked? 11:18:51 He found me first 11:20:26 Dun-dun-dun! 11:21:14 (That's the dun-dun-dun from The Eve of the War from Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds, not the normal dun-dun-dun.) 11:21:54 I think I have that on LP 11:24:29 I have it on CD somewhere. 11:28:21 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:31:29 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:36:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:36:40 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:45:51 -!- NSQX has joined. 11:46:37 If anyone unblocks me I will work on UniCode, but unfortunately, nobody will. 11:51:14 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:07:21 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:41:45 -!- NSQX has joined. 12:42:13 @time elly 12:42:14 Local time for elly is Tue Apr 3 08:41:32 2012 12:42:24 @time NSQX 12:42:25 Local time for NSQX is Tue Apr 03 20:41:53 2012 12:42:48 @time elliott 12:43:36 Where are the administrators anyway? 12:46:19 -!- NSQX has quit (Client Quit). 12:46:53 -!- NSQX has joined. 12:48:41 @time elliott 12:54:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:56:35 NSQX, you ... do know why you're blocked, right? 12:56:47 And at any rate, your block is of finite duration. 12:56:49 Hello! 12:56:59 Hi Taneb. Did you see the update and the album? 12:57:03 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:57:13 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 12:57:15 Yes 12:57:58 I'm only waiting for the time when I can ask an administrator to unblock me. 13:13:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:23:33 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:35:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:35:45 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:49:54 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 13:49:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 14:02:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:05:20 -!- asiekierka-David has changed nick to asiekierka. 14:33:22 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:39:31 -!- augur has joined. 14:45:30 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:57:59 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 14:58:00 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 14:58:00 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 14:59:38 -!- ion has joined. 15:03:31 -!- elliott has joined. 15:10:36 [[ 15:10:36 5. IANA Considerations 15:10:37 This document explicitly and emphatically, yet very humbly, requests 15:10:37 IANA to not create an empty registry for the Null Packet. 15:10:37 ]] 15:23:39 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:25:44 -!- boily has joined. 15:27:20 Meanwhile in April in Finland http://dl.dropbox.com/u/119475/IMG_20120403_074804.jpg 15:29:55 Yay, snow day. 15:38:12 @src IO fail 15:38:12 fail s = failIO s 15:38:17 @src failIO 15:38:17 failIO s = ioError (userError s) 15:41:36 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9995470/jquery-vs-javascript 15:43:23 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 16:02:22 -!- cheater has joined. 16:07:48 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:08:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:09:51 -!- boily has joined. 16:14:09 elliott: You'd be shocked how commonly that question comes up X_X 16:14:33 Note how #jquery has hundreds more members than ##javascript 16:16:05 * elliott remembers telling RocketJSquirrel about jQuery once. 16:16:06 HOW FAR HE'S COME 16:19:57 eek something like 39.4 degrees celsius fever 16:20:09 IT WAS NICE TO KNOW YOU ALL. WELL, MOST OF YOU. 16:21:08 39.4 degrees F would be an even more alarming temperature, possibly. 16:22:43 I think at 39.4F you declare time of death. 16:23:16 Of course, 39.4K is even worse. 16:23:24 i'm always 39.4K 16:23:26 i'm just 16:23:26 that 16:23:27 cool 16:23:30 :shades: 16:23:34 YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAH 16:23:46 thank you ion 16:23:47 Of course, it takes elliott days to raise the shades to his eyes with that little kinetic energy. 16:24:02 RocketJSquirrel: 39.4K is at least low enough that you might be cryonically preserved. 16:24:20 pikhq_: Touché. 16:24:22 So, with future tech you may yet live. 16:24:38 That's why I'm immortal. 16:25:15 Of course, it takes elliott days to raise the shades to his eyes with that little kinetic energy. 16:25:16 Either you've got knowledge I don't, or you meant to say "I might be immortal" 16:25:23 OK but I'm also hot. Cool and hot. 16:25:31 Lik, some Peltier shit. 16:25:35 Oh, wait. 39.4K and moving? 16:25:38 *Like, 16:25:40 Yeah, immortal. 16:25:48 elliott is like some shit? 16:25:51 Yes. 16:25:55 I strongly resemble some shit. 16:26:01 Or incredible. Typing whilst very dead. 16:26:38 BTW, I lied, I'm not actually at 39.4K, I'm at absolute zero. My entire body works through incredibly improbable quantum effects. 16:27:02 Amazing. 16:27:26 UNFORTUNATELY my body also decays through those same effects. 16:27:29 Science: SO DISAPPONITING 16:27:34 *DISAPPORTERJOIFn 16:29:03 * oerjan recalls david niven's liquid helium creatures 16:29:40 wait, wrong name D: 16:29:44 *larry 16:30:02 * oerjan blames it on his fried brain 16:30:20 Larry, David, what's the difference. 16:31:12 Larry Niven is well-known (... among scifi fans). David Niven is not. 16:31:30 James David Graham Niven (1 March 1910 – 29 July 1983),[1][2] was a British actor and novelist, best known for his roles as Phileas Fogg in Around the World in 80 Days and Sir Charles Lytton, a.k.a. "the Phantom", in The Pink Panther. He was awarded the 1958 Academy Award for Best Actor in Separate Tables. 16:31:41 Sounds more well-known than Larry Niven to me! 16:31:41 oerjan: Outsiders, I assume? 16:31:48 pikhq_: yes 16:33:23 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:33:36 elliott: Bah. 16:34:35 (Article at [[David Niven]] so presumably that's his common name) 16:35:30 elliott: So where's our changesbot. 16:36:09 elliott: And why don't you know how to spell "vandalism"? 16:36:52 RocketJSquirrel: Our changesbot inexplicably doesn't work, despite producing the correct output when not piped into netcat. 16:37:09 And because I was putting a lot of es on the page so I did it on purpose ergo fuck you. 16:37:50 RocketJSquirrel: I'll probably try and get it working today. 16:37:54 But it's a reaaaally weird bug. 16:46:11 -!- cheater has joined. 16:50:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAA). 16:59:29 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 16:59:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:59:30 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 17:11:33 https://twitter.com/#!/DonaldGlover/statuses/29592754602381313 18:09:35 @tell ais523 I like how everyone completely ignored your coming-clean post on rgrn. 18:09:36 Consider it noted. 18:45:37 -!- nortti has joined. 18:46:31 perfect! My HD broke today 18:47:39 What a coincidence! Mine didn't! 18:51:31 That’s their other main function. 18:52:17 -!- monqy has joined. 18:52:47 so tomorrow I am going to set up my Thinkpad t20 with 700MHz Pentium III, 64MB of RAM and 30GB HD that is missing the screen as my main computer 18:53:27 But what type is the RAM?! 18:53:50 elliott: PC100 18:54:52 thx 18:56:57 I wonder what elliott will do with this information 18:58:48 build a clone 18:59:39 hello, I have next problem I want to use polymorphic data-type that should have two operations (+) and *const 18:59:41 so in that type I want to use Num, Vector Num, and maybe types or so 18:59:43 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:59:46 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 18:59:47 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 19:00:04 `quote SDRAM 19:00:14 804) the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading 19:02:12 elliott: why do you want to build a clone? it also has two windows licenes taped to it (98, XP Pro) and nothing to keep HD inside 19:02:43 PC100 SDRAM allows up to 100 PCs (processing contexts, usually called threads nowadays) per memory module 19:03:49 olsner: what about DDR RAM? 19:04:29 nortti: Can you tell me the screen resolution? Thx 19:05:45 elliott: using a external monitor on 1024x768 19:07:40 Thx 19:08:20 but why do you really want this information? 19:09:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:09:23 That's classified. Well, it's not, but I'd probably get arrested if I told you. 19:09:28 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:10:44 shachaf: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/rrijm/could_somebody_explain_the_concept_behind_storing/ 19:13:40 elliott: blubbar raises some good, thought-provoking questions. 19:14:10 Many a sage has wondered "Why is there in expression and nothing done with it? The $ should curry i guess, but why is this not given a name? (And why isn't it lost?)" 19:14:30 "How the hell is this pure?" is one of the great unsolved problems of our time. 19:14:57 nortti: double data rate, it allows two threads to use memory at the same time 19:15:09 theoretically doubling bandwidth, but latency increases a bit when switching contexts 19:15:11 And of course "Is there \"State in Haskell for retards?\"" is a question that any child could understand, but few could answer. 19:15:14 first time my HD broke I lost almost all of the data, second time I lost few important files and this time I only lost two hour worth of irc logs. 19:22:08 "There's really only so many basic stories that can exist. The main character is trying to get somewhere (the Odyssey), get something (the legend of the Golden Fleece), win someone's heart (the Iliad), get revenge (Cain and Abel) or save the world ( Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure)." 19:23:16 Or have sex. 19:23:27 Note distinction from winning someone's heart. 19:23:32 All you really want is their naughty bits. 19:23:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:27:32 elliott: Just solving all those problems quickly, eh? 19:27:39 Movin' along at a vector's pace. 19:29:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:30:53 -!- augur has joined. 19:39:03 RocketJSquirrel: Ah, yes, early Spock/Kirk slash. 19:40:12 "I remember it well!" 19:40:40 elliott: Actually, can't say I've read any. Just random snarking. 19:40:55 Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure. 19:41:41 Besides, not exactly the target audience for most slash fic. They kinda target women who like hot man-sex. :P 19:42:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:43:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:17 hi ais523 19:43:20 we had an IP spammer! 19:43:55 hi 19:43:55 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:44:10 looks like turkish 19:44:16 elliott: I don't like it so much 19:44:19 perhaps they'll respond to it later 19:44:26 or perhaps they're trying to think up an appropriate response 19:44:37 note that it wasn't /completely/ ignored, I've had at least one private response 19:44:40 but it was private for a reason, so… 19:45:00 ais523: Was it a DevTeam member yelling at you? 19:45:05 no 19:45:05 If you whisper, the secret is safe. 19:45:08 Aw. 19:45:10 ais523: Was it a DevTeam member not yelling at you? 19:45:18 no, it wasn't a devteam member at all 19:45:34 Lame. 19:45:38 Was it a non-DevTeam member yelling at you? 19:45:49 what's devteam? 19:45:59 olsner: The NetHack "developer" team. 19:46:00 olsner: the group of people who are theoretically supposed to be developing NetHack 19:46:19 aha 19:46:35 I will take ais523's silence... as affirmation! 19:49:10 Besides, not exactly the target audience for most slash fic. They kinda target women who like hot man-sex. 19:49:15 And/or men who like hot man-sex. 19:49:37 RocketJSquirrel: Not really. 19:50:15 augur: Your expert opinion is needed to settle a dispute. 19:51:18 augur, Hot Man Sex Consultant 19:51:33 (More like Hot Man Sex-Consultant amiright??? lololololol xkcd) 19:51:37 Also, augur isn't here ATM. 19:51:38 or slash fix target audience consultant 19:51:41 pikhq: NORLY 19:51:45 *fic 19:51:52 Gotta get my slash fic slash fix. 19:52:11 WELP BACK TO CLOPFICS FOR ME KTHX 19:52:23 clopfix? 19:52:42 I invite you to look up the term 8-D 19:53:04 I can infer. 19:53:10 there's a clop (or clop-something? don't remember the name) reddit, it was intriguing 19:54:00 OH BIG MACINTOSH THEY SURE CALL YOU "BIG MACINTOSH" FOR A REASON HA HA HA 19:57:10 Uhhhh, guys? 19:57:13 Need some brain bleach? 19:58:42 I was raised on the Internet; it is hard to shock me anymore. 19:58:46 I have seen... Things. 19:58:58 Sometimes they spin. 19:59:43 -!- AndGregor has joined. 20:01:07 -!- augur has joined. 20:01:31 He's here now! 20:03:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:03:42 bye augur 20:28:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7). 20:30:11 "The hypothetical person lacking a sense of humour would likely find the behaviour induced by humour to be inexplicable, strange, or even irrational." -- Wikipedia, [[humour]] 20:30:47 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 20:31:09 it's probably strange, inexplicable and irrational enough even if you know what's going on 20:33:05 there's a short story by Asimov where someone asks Multivac for the reason humour exists 20:34:20 That was a good story. 20:47:25 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:51:01 -!- nortti has joined. 20:56:32 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 21:01:26 -!- augur has joined. 21:01:59 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:04:01 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:04:13 -!- derdon has joined. 21:04:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:05:14 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:05:33 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:05:37 -!- Frooxius has joined. 21:24:53 elliott: gah, see recent edits to [[Entropy]] 21:24:55 my brain is melting slightly 21:24:59 well, probably not 21:25:03 just feels like it 21:33:09 -!- augur has joined. 21:35:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:36:04 hello 21:36:05 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:45:39 @time Phantom_Hoover 21:45:40 Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Tue Apr 3 21:42:11 21:46:07 I haven't changed the time zone on my laptop, unsurprisingly. 21:47:12 Sure thing, Phantom "actually in Gettysburg St., America, Scotland" Hoover. 21:54:51 elliott: "more of" is stretching it. 21:55:50 shachaf "more of" shachaf 21:56:39 elliott "yields falsehood when quoted and placed as his own middle name" elliott 21:56:57 I disagree. 21:57:19 elliott "i disagree" elliott 21:58:31 shachaf: so elliott "elliott" elliott is a liar? 21:58:50 ais523: no, elliott "yields falsehood when quoted and placed as his own middle name" elliott is 21:59:20 but no, that's referring to the wrong thing there 21:59:25 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 21:59:26 (:aSS):aSS 21:59:38 this is a quine because the bits inside the parens are used to generate the bits outside the parens 21:59:42 ^ul (elliott):aSS 21:59:42 (elliott)elliott 21:59:49 whereas that's closer to the example shachaf gave 21:59:56 > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show" 21:59:57 text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show" 21:59:59 it generates extra elliotts, rather than quining 22:00:11 > text$ap(++)show"elliott" 22:00:13 elliott"elliott" 22:00:26 Did I accidentally generate an extra elliott. :-( 22:00:26 see the difference? 22:00:29 That sounds dangerous. 22:00:43 hi hi 22:00:49 Uh-oh. 22:00:55 what what 22:02:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:08:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:08:32 -!- augur has joined. 22:09:44 is oerjan ghost 22:10:22 i'm not sure, but i'm checking my fever again 22:10:46 "ns151 delivers a righteous speech directed against the anti-American rhetoric on Reddit." (r/bestof) 22:10:50 This could go either way. 22:11:55 It went the wrong way. 22:12:21 Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr "OK, our country is really terrible and shitty, but we're not North Korea, also if any other country had our resources they'd be literally Satan too, so there, and also people who want to leave are cowards and fuck them". 22:12:33 (Last part only barely paraphrased: "And to the Americans who come on here and whine about how much they want to leave and go to live in places they have never even visited: fuck you. Not in a "love America or get the fuck out" kind of way, but because you are an embarrassment to everything this country was founded on 230 years ago. You'd rather just pack up and leave than stay and fight for what you believe in.") 22:14:56 Yes, I saw. 22:15:12 (Also "rhetoric", as if reddit is home to anything that could be non-sarcastically described as rhetoric.) 22:17:21 hm it's slightly up to 39.6, but i'm feeling _less_ shitty 22:17:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie oerjan's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 22:18:35 oerjan: I hope you recover soon 22:19:01 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:19:08 i hope so too, i'm worried about not getting food bought for the holidays 22:19:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:19:36 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:19:53 wtf, since when are we nice to suffering people in here! 22:19:58 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:20:11 oerjan: i hope you recover slowly. (see, that's a half-way point!) 22:20:17 yay! 22:20:46 elliott: we were pretty nice to you when you were suffering 22:21:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:21:45 ais523: no, that was feigned to get on my good side, because you don't want to be the ones suffering when i rise to president of the world and my new world order begins 22:21:58 at least, everyone else's was. my condolences if you had to settle for sincerity :P 22:22:18 elliott: would you believe /me/ to be insincere about something like that? 22:22:22 remember that I'm lawful good ;) 22:22:25 What's oerjan suffering? 22:22:31 ais523, more like lawful obnoxious. 22:22:51 lawful good people are famously obnoxious 22:23:14 Did anyone ever work out what I am? 22:23:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 22:23:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:23:43 elliott, chaotic annoying. 22:24:00 I just checked, I'm not chaotic. 22:24:16 Oh, hmm. 22:24:21 I'm not original-meaning-of-chaotic. 22:24:30 I might be new-meaning-of-chaotic. 22:24:41 Neutral seems more likely to me, though. 22:31:01 Chaotic neutral. 22:31:52 RocketJSquirrel: I don't see how I'm neutral on the good/evil alignment... 22:32:05 http://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/rm5o4/does_hard_scifi_even_exist_in_hollywood/ 22:32:20 "I'm looking for a film that displays at least a hint of scientific accuracy." 22:32:43 How about Citizen Kane? 22:32:48 The Core 22:32:59 * oerjan hi five elliott 22:33:19 What, were you going to say that too? 22:33:23 I am so unoriginal. :( 22:33:28 i considered it. 22:33:54 Until it goes all loopy, 2001: A Space Odyssey is reasonably hard. Then it's just high. 22:35:05 MST3K had a review of an extremely hard sci-fi. 22:35:16 The fact that it was on MST3K tells you how well hard sci-fi does. 22:35:30 It had relativity and generation ships and such. 22:35:57 Frankly hard sci-fi with the explicit intention of being hard tends to be pretty terrible. 22:36:27 Mainly because the real universe is pretty fucking depressing ^^ 22:36:27 Depends on what you're looking for. 22:36:39 "However, because Virgil was not designed to jettison undamaged compartments, the plan requires someone to deactivate a safety switch in Virgil that is located in an area exposed to the extreme temperatures of the core. Brazzelton volunteers and successfully deactivates the switch, dying shortly afterwards." 22:36:54 I... don't think the writers fully understood how hot the Earth's core is? 22:37:07 lol 22:37:19 "Oh, sure, I'll sacrifice mysAAAAAAAAAAERIOHGl'f'" 22:37:21 elliott: He flips the switch during the microsecond before he's fully evaporated. 22:37:34 "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting. 22:37:56 There's got to be at least a few that are hard-modulo-FTL. 22:38:09 Which is pretty much the minimum acceptable to avoid being depressing as fuck. 22:38:24 Phantom_Hoover: I mean, interesting hard sci-fi is interesting because it's about the effects of technology on people, society, etc. 22:38:39 hmm, asimov's books tend to avoid contradictions with existing science, they just invent new bits of science too 22:38:43 But the kind of people who care the sci-fi is AS HARD AS POSSIBLE tend to consider writing stories about things like "people" beneath them. 22:38:43 "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.? 22:39:06 "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?! 22:39:13 "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?!‽ 22:39:20 (Also, I thought Tau Zero was good? I'ven't read it.) 22:39:23 `quote tau zero 22:39:27 587) You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship? 22:39:27 'twas OK. 22:39:32 things like "real-world science exists and is not contradicted, but we also have telepathy and we can do ftl travel using hyperspace" 22:39:40 It got a bit doofy in the end. 22:39:47 The ending was very cakey. 22:39:54 It started all hard sci-fi and ended all My Little Pony. 22:40:06 ais523: Pretty sure hyperspace requires a huge amount of glue code to be consistent with existing physics... 22:40:10 (Which has self-consistent time travel, so y'know) 22:40:32 elliott: well, it's a plot point that nobody actually understands it, the first hyperspace engine was created by an insane robot 22:40:38 (Also, I thought Tau Zero was good? I'ven't read it.) 22:40:41 Ohh, right, Tau Zero has a terrible ending. 22:41:01 (I thought it just did took obvious super-depressing route.) 22:41:04 (Which would be better.) 22:41:08 *it just took the obvious 22:41:14 It is; I just doubt very much that the Leonora was feasible at the time. 22:41:33 I don't remember when Bussard ramjets were discredited. 22:41:48 "The universe collapses into a cosmic egg (which the starship survives because there is still enough uncondensed hydrogen for maneuvering, outside the monobloc)" 22:41:55 I like the part where they survive a Big Bang. 22:42:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet suggests they're not totally. 22:42:23 That sounds positively Adams-like. 22:42:39 Phantom_Hoover: They're just not as good as they were thought to be. 22:42:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TauZero(Anderson).jpg I am not exactly convinced this cover means something. 22:42:56 I like it, though! 22:43:17 (courtesy of the interstellar medium being less dense than we thought) 22:43:18 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:32 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:40 Phantom_Hoover: also should I watch Primer. 22:44:44 Also Tau Zero has a tonne of handwaving with "magnetohydrodynamic fields" which are real but I suspect don't do half the things they're portrayed to. 22:44:47 I already more-or-less know the plot. 22:44:56 elliott, Primer has a bad plot or something apparently? 22:45:54 Phantom_Hoover: Are you sure you didn't just get that from the reddit post? 22:46:20 Yes, I did. 22:46:35 I don't already more-or-less know the plot. 22:53:27 Now, let us analyze the position of My Little Pony on the scale of "hard" or "soft" AI, and see which problems can be rectified to harden it. 22:53:53 /ignore RocketJSquirrel*!*@* all 22:53:56 ^^ 22:54:52 Wow, I said AI. 22:54:57 When I meant sci-fi. 22:54:59 I am el retard. 22:55:20 CLEARLY THAT MISTAKE IS WHY ELLIOTT IS IGNORING ME SO I WILL GO ON 22:55:45 Problem #1: Pegasi are a highly unlikely modification to the pony bauplan (and we haven't even mentioned unicorns yet!) 22:56:03 I was under the impression you had a channel for this. 22:56:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAAA). 22:57:02 Indeed I do, but I'm not /harassing/ people in there, so it's no fun. 22:57:51 OK also American food is so ridiculously huge. 22:57:56 my little pony is the hardest sci-fi 22:58:15 Phantom_Hoover: It's true. 22:58:21 Like 22:58:44 Phantom_Hoover: I've become accustomed to buying dinner to go and dividing it into two meals. 22:58:47 I have a very strong compulsion to finish meals and I don't think I've finished either of the ones I've had here. 22:58:55 Yeah, don't. It's not a good idea. 22:59:16 Phantom_Hoover: Have you SUPERSISED any yet? 22:59:20 I have a friend who's "adapted" by eating only one meal per day. 22:59:23 OK, "supersised" looks ridiculous. 22:59:26 *SUPERSIZED 22:59:32 http://i.imgur.com/HJpSU.jpg 22:59:44 elliott: What sise drink do you prefer? 22:59:48 I'm told my grandfather once tried to make a scale model of this. 23:00:01 RocketJSquirrel, non-comically-oversised. 23:00:12 RocketJSquirrel: It took me a minute to realise that was actually incorrect >_> 23:01:07 Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't it... upset you a bit to be on such a gigantic island? 23:01:08 elliott: Naw, supersising something is making it superse. 23:01:20 Phantom_Hoover: I mean, America is pretty terrifying! 23:01:21 elliott, um, continent. 23:01:23 e.g. this is a very superse meal from McDonalds, I think I'll die of a stroke now. 23:01:32 Phantom_Hoover: Um what is the difference except SISE 23:01:38 Continent am just very big island. 23:01:45 Also they make up for it by thinking buildings made a century ago are old. 23:01:48 D'awwww. 23:02:12 Phantom_Hoover: But we do by having air conditioning in every building that actually gets lived in, thanks to demolishing any building over a century old :) 23:02:45 Joke's on you, the UK climate is so stable that air conditioning is rarely needed. 23:02:59 Touché. 23:03:16 Phantom_Hoover: what am the weather like there. 23:03:37 -!- augur has joined. 23:03:46 Hot, but not any more than Edinburgh a little further into summer. 23:04:20 more 23:04:21 like 23:04:22 EdinBRRRRRRR 23:04:44 It's nice to live in a place where the weather is always miserable. 23:04:49 You don't have to wonder if you'll enjoy the weather. 23:05:08 It stays hot for longer, though; the evenings aren't as pronounced. 23:05:08 (Fun fact: in midwinter, the sun at midday in Edinburgh is 8° from the horizon.) 23:05:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:05:41 Phantom_Hoover: That fact isn't... fun? 23:06:54 -!- augur has joined. 23:07:14 Phantom_Hoover: What time is it in... "America". 23:07:32 RocketJSquirrel, I prefer to say that the weather is always comfortable, because it... is. 23:07:53 (Phantom_Hoover constantly wears jumpers.) 23:07:55 (Or so I hear.) 23:08:02 Awesome. 23:08:24 @time Phantom_Hoover = 23:08:25 Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Tue Apr 3 23:04:55 23:08:29 @time 23:08:30 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25 23:08:30 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25 23:08:30 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25 23:08:33 ...what 23:08:42 Yes, so even if it gets hot I can take it off and walking is still comfortable (although as is readily apparent from going through America for any length of time, you can't walk anywhere there anyway). 23:08:44 Phantom_Hoover: Dude, your time is wrong even for the other place you're in. 23:08:51 @time 23:08:52 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:47 23:08:57 Well that was odd. 23:09:02 Huh, the clock drift is only 5 minutes? 23:09:13 Dude. 23:09:17 3. 23:09:18 It's an hour and 5 minutes. 23:09:28 Modulo BST. 23:09:30 5, 3, whatever. 23:09:48 19:09. Is it really only 19:09 there Phantom_Hoover? It's night time! 23:09:58 (I am honestly not faking my disbelief, countries are weird and timezones are weird.) 23:10:14 Yes. 23:11:16 All the buildings here are so sparse, too. 23:11:27 Phantom_Hoover: Are the trains really as bad as they say? 23:11:48 I... don't think they have trains in America for commuter use. 23:11:51 In effect. 23:11:57 @time elliott 23:11:57 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:11:52 23:12:19 Although dude, who uses trains in the UK except for long-range travel through the UK? 23:12:28 Everyone? 23:12:35 Phantom_Hoover: What about all those trains in the US? 23:12:38 I mean, we don't have a car. 23:12:38 Like Caltrain. 23:12:41 (Yesyesyes Gregor, I know long-range in the UK is nonexistent in the US.) 23:12:42 That's a train, right? 23:13:03 elliott: "we" being "the UK"? 23:13:08 Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, what about ``am'' ''trek''? 23:13:11 shachaf: Yes. 23:13:30 I don't know, I'd just heard they aren't used much. 23:13:57 kmc is missing out. 23:14:02 Trains in #esoteric! 23:14:05 But um I guess you must have completely different travel needs to me. 23:14:21 * RocketJSquirrel reappears. 23:14:24 Wots all this then? 23:14:34 Some cities have commuter trains, most don't. 23:14:36 Portland does :) 23:14:36 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not saying I use trains in place of walking? 23:14:44 The trips to Ireland more or less require taking a car over a ferry. 23:14:46 Long distance train travel is pretty shitty. 23:14:56 Phantom_Hoover: But, I mean, trains are way nicer than buses. 23:15:01 (For longer distances.) 23:15:01 Speaking of ferries, WA has ferries. 23:15:05 (But not long distances, just longer.) 23:15:15 elliott, yeah, hence long-range UK travel. 23:15:16 Phantom_Hoover: And yes but who goes to Ireland? 23:15:21 i.e. travel between cities. 23:15:25 And, mm... not really long-range. 23:15:35 If I wanted to go to Newcastle, the nearest city, I'd use a trainular device. 23:15:55 Medium-to-long, then. 23:16:04 That's 22.6 miles, apparently. 23:17:12 Phantom_Hoover: The part of the US you're in looks boring. 23:17:36 I'm going to Annapolis later? It has that crazy bridge that was on Cracked a while ago. 23:17:53 I like how Wyoming is rectangular. 23:17:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:17:57 Way to be creative. 23:18:17 -!- Frooxius has joined. 23:18:30 Oh, no it doesn't. 23:18:53 RocketJSquirrel: What's the best US state? 23:19:54 Phantom_Hoover: Whoa, what the fuck? I didn't know the Americas joined up like *that*. 23:20:03 My understanding of geography is... woefully poor. 23:20:14 Like, Panama is all sideways and shit. 23:20:16 You mean Panama? 23:20:17 Yeah. 23:20:29 I thought they were more like, above-below. 23:20:34 But no! 23:20:58 North America is a really ugly shape, mind you. 23:21:13 Esp. Canada. 23:22:01 elliott: OREGON 8-D 23:22:03 YAAAAAAAAAY OREGON 23:22:30 why would you name a state after a spice 23:22:35 *herb 23:22:41 (THAT'S HERB WITH AN H YOU IDIOTS) 23:22:48 erb 23:22:52 Oregon's pretty, isn't it? I don't really know. 23:22:53 hi shachaf 23:23:04 UK has tons of commuter trains 23:23:08 and several major transit systems 23:23:16 so that's "who uses trains in the UK except for long-range travel" 23:23:24 You realise Phantom_Hoover is Scottish, right? 23:23:32 Edinburgh has two train stations. 23:23:33 no 23:23:47 There are the trams but... the less said about the trams, the better. 23:23:49 also major US cities do have commuter rail networks 23:24:37 NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, LA, SF, Baltimore/DC, Miami, etc. 23:24:45 in roughly decreasing order of ridership 23:24:51 Oregon's pretty, isn't it? I don't really know. // The parts of Oregon anybody knows about are lush and green. 23:24:58 Phantom_Hoover is in Penicillin. 23:25:07 they tend to be shitty compared to European or Asian systems, but they do run and lots of people us them 23:25:07 The vast majority is just barely on the tundra side of being called a "desert" 23:25:48 I get the feeling kmc Knows About Trains. 23:25:53 "About one in every three users of mass transit in the United States and two-thirds of the nation's rail riders live in New York and its suburbs." 23:26:06 That's one of the Weird Things in America, the scrubland is pretty different. 23:26:15 Moer like New Reallyboringstate. 23:26:33 burn 23:26:39 There's more bare soil, for one thing. 23:26:41 *More. That was unintentional. :/ 23:27:09 http://0x10c.com/ 23:27:11 Oh joy. 23:27:38 The disparate space sim enthusiasts are going to be divided further by a game made by *Notch*. 23:28:11 Phantom_Hoover: "Seamlessly landing on planets." Sorry I am SOLD. 23:28:19 Which will inevitably be a disappointment, but may get far enough developed that it sucks interest into Notch's shitty MMO design. 23:28:39 elliott, Infinity, for god's sake. 23:28:46 Phantom_Hoover: Yes exactly. 23:28:50 Phantom_Hoover: That game isn't ever going to exist. 23:28:55 This one looks like it might. 23:29:06 Yes. It'll also be awfully executed. 23:29:35 elliott: I've been to Oregon! 23:29:43 Notch's personality cult will see that no constructive criticism can be made and it'll be a technical shambles (we've all seen what he thinks constitutes procedural generation, for one thing). 23:29:50 I don't recommend Medford, OR. 23:29:59 If you're going to visit Oregon, don't go to Medford. 23:30:29 Phantom_Hoover: Oh pls. 23:30:36 Also I have a suspicion this'll be an EVE-style "right click to fight ship" deal. 23:30:55 It might not be, though. 23:30:58 elliott, um? 23:31:03 MC's terrain gen isn't good. 23:31:20 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think Notch is inherently incompetent, he just mismanaged Minecraft. 23:31:27 It was decent up to 1.7, and then it was ruined. 23:31:37 RUINED! 23:31:40 In fact, I went from WA to CA through OR. 23:31:42 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and who wrote the decent one in the first place? 23:31:42 shachaf, well yes. 23:31:57 elliott, sure, but planetary terrain gen is more demanding than MC's. 23:32:13 Phantom_Hoover: it's also not constrained to 1x1x1 m blocks. 23:32:49 And I'm not saying he's incompetent, I just don't think he's a good maker of games; MC's great success is its core idea, and not a great deal more. 23:33:48 is there anything new about that core idea/ 23:33:50 I'd like to think he's learned something. The "Game Features" and "The Generator and the Computer" are all we have to go on, and they make me thoroughly intrigued, so I'm OK with giving him the benefit of the doubt. 23:34:29 Game features aren't anything new. 23:34:32 kmc: Can we just skip to the part where we recognise that basically every idea in existence is heavily derivative in some way, and that the synthesis and tweaking of existing ideas with a different vision can produce a clearly-derivative idea that is still new and worthwhile in its own right? 23:34:47 Phantom_Hoover: So? 23:35:15 So I'm not sure how much innovation can carry it? 23:35:17 Phantom_Hoover: And I don't think there's been a space sim that lets you write a program to fully automate your ship, at least not in-game. 23:35:44 Probably because it's incredibly niche and entertaining to a very small number of people. 23:35:59 At least when taken to the level of nonabstraction he has. 23:36:14 Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, I'll revoke my intrigue in the name of populism. 23:36:18 shachaf: Can we force O'Reilly to take RWH out of print? 23:37:05 "no matter how high the power (c) is to 10 multiplied by 0 would be 0. so 0x10c would imply, end of universe? just a thought. #0x10c" 23:37:37 elliott: What's wrong with RWH? 23:37:44 elliott: I think that's one of those trick sentences. 23:37:49 elliott, well there are programming games aplenty; how many have you enjoyed? 23:38:19 Phantom_Hoover: "Programming game" is a disingenuous comparison; it's clear that there's a spectrum of automation you can choose, and I doubt anyone will automate their entire ship for anything other than kicks. 23:38:27 (Anyway, you never played BF Joust.) 23:38:37 shachaf: It's hideously out of date, rubbish at teaching the basics, and all the code is ugly. 23:38:39 Yes, but I mean what *you've* enjoyed. 23:38:51 Phantom_Hoover: Eh? 23:39:00 You said that it intrigued you. 23:40:01 elliott, agree, when i say "anything new" i'm referring to precisely that "tweaking of existing ideas" and "different vision" 23:40:01 -!- AndGregor has quit (Quit: Bye). 23:40:46 kmc, how many other resource-gathering construction sandboxes were there before MC? 23:40:54 i have no idea 23:42:20 kmc: Well, MC is hardly Infiniminer. 23:42:52 A cube world isn't a new idea, and nor is a goal-less sandbox game, but Minecraft combined that fully-destructable, procedural block mining terrain with sandbox goals and the focus on creation. 23:43:56 There's also the sparseness that it had in the early days that made it very much about isolation, at least in single-player. 23:44:15 Unfortunately it went downhill and turned into a really bad RPG. 23:45:07 But yeah, I don't really think Notch has the ability to make the game he describes. 23:45:26 MC kind of just rolled together with some basic features, after all. 23:45:43 Once he started on long-term goals it turned into a really bad RPG. 23:47:47 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but that was more a problem of vision than anything; he seems to have always intended it to turn into the kind of RPG it did, and the sort of quasi-existential-horror vibe it had going turned out to be an artifact of the development process. 23:47:58 But here, the vision seems sound, so that risk isn't really there. 23:48:23 The only question is technical ability, and I'd like to think that (a) he's learned enough (Minecraft did get less buggy as it went on, after all), and (b) he has enough competent people in his company to mitigate it. 23:50:29 But it's not just technical ability. 23:50:54 He needs to be able to weave that list of individual cool things into a coherent game, not just implement each in a vacuum. 23:51:21 You seem to be mistaking "benefit of the doubt" for "unwavering support". I'm hardly going to pass judgement before it comes out. 23:51:39 I know, I'm trying to apply what we know about MC's development. 23:52:06 It had plenty of half-implemented, disconnected elements. 23:52:32 Wolves, powered minecarts, the Nether... 23:52:57 Also, I think the technical challenge is lessened by the fact that it's obviously going for an at least pseudo-retro style aesthetic, given that the logo is rendered by the game's engine and that 0 has very obvious edges. 23:53:31 Oh, I guess "Also, think 1980's." is a more direct affirmation of that. 23:53:45 (Said to C418.) 23:54:52 Pseudo-retro means lazy in Notchland. 23:55:22 MC's textures might be low-res, but they're ugly too. 23:55:30 Your abject negativity is absolutely bizarre. I realise Minecraft ended up sucking, but you could twist literally any detail about this game into naysaying. 23:56:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:57:06 I quite like space games, and of late I've been increasingly frustrated at the number of good projects which will never succeed due to an abject lack of coordination. 23:57:14 Seeing this has not improved my mood. 23:57:52 You are the only person who can see that a game with a non-terrible vision in an area of your interest is being developed and have it manage to dampen your mood. 23:57:58 If it fails, that doesn't affect you at all. 2012-04-04: 00:01:12 apt-comparison ghc gcc 00:01:39 LT 00:02:00 [[ 00:02:01 reddit.com 0x10c: this reddit has been banned 00:02:01 »ehird (1834 · 7323)||mod messages|preferences||logout 00:02:01 this reddit has been banned 00:02:01 most likely this was done automatically by our spam filtering program. the program is still learning, and may even have some bugs, so if you feel the ban was a mistake, please submit a link to our request a reddit listing and be sure to include the exact name of the reddit. 00:02:03 ]] 00:02:05 I COULD HAVE BEEN SO FAMOUS 00:02:39 RocketJSquirrel: What's the second-best US state? 00:03:00 elliott: Stop abusing the bot. 00:03:02 Bot abuser. 00:04:17 shachaf: Why does everybody hate point-free? 00:04:18 elliott: Washington 00:04:28 -!- augur has joined. 00:04:29 elliott: Because it's the devil? 00:04:36 RocketJSquirrel: Third-best??? 00:04:41 elliott: Canada. 00:05:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:05:33 Ah. 00:09:46 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:19:38 RocketJSquirrel: "Tryon Creek is a 4.85-mile (7.81 km) tributary of the Willamette River in the U.S. state of Oregon." 00:19:40 Is this your doing? 00:20:14 ... no? I assume there's a joke or pun or something here, but I don't get it. 00:20:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page 00:21:00 Oh, the fact that it's on the main page? Why would I have such authority? 00:21:20 It was a joke, because you had just been extolling the virtues of Oregon 00:21:23 *Oregon. 00:21:35 -!- augur has joined. 00:21:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:24:16 "However, on Twitter today, Notch announced that he’s registered the domain for the game, to be titled 0x10c. (Where that ‘c’ is in superscript.)" 00:24:34 Phantom_Hoover: I think you have to thank Notch for demonstrating that the world's journalists are too incompetent to figure out how to use superscripts. 00:24:51 0x10ĉ 00:24:54 Right? 00:25:00 Right. 00:25:34 0x1℃ 00:25:43 HELP 00:25:51 hi 00:26:01 hi monqy 00:27:12 -!- cheater has joined. 00:27:40 RocketJSquirrel: You get to debug my IRC bot! 00:27:59 elliott: I wrote an IRC bot today! 00:28:02 (echo "PASS $(cat esolang-bot-password)"; echo 'NICK esolang'; echo 'USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/'; echo 'JOIN #esoteric'; echo 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg'; while true; do nc -u -l -p 8147 | sed 's/^/PRIVMSG #esoteric :/'; echo; echo; done) | cat -v | nc irc.freenode.net 6667 00:28:05 RocketJSquirrel: WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK 00:29:14 Because it's not multibot. 00:30:13 shachaf: is it a good bot 00:30:23 monqy: It's an evil bot. :-( 00:30:30 :( 00:30:58 "Me Bill" 00:31:00 -- Bill 00:32:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xcsz43Kuw 00:32:36 RocketJSquirrel: Multibot am shit 00:32:39 Apparently "Bil". 00:32:40 "Me Bil" 00:32:42 -- Bil 00:33:12 shachaf: Man, I don't even remember this scene. 00:33:22 Actually, I don't even remember completing the Neverhood. Maybe I didn't. 00:33:35 elliott: What! 00:33:41 It's the best scene. 00:36:26 elliott: "deploy bear retrieval unit" 00:36:28 :-( 00:36:57 Damn, the only two superscript letters in Unicode are 'i' and 'n'. 00:37:50 still you can make many exciting superscript words 00:39:08 Like ⁱⁿ and ⁱⁿⁿ 00:39:15 Like ⁱⁿ and ⁱⁿⁿ 00:39:17 Er. 00:39:19 And ⁱⁿⁿⁿ 00:39:24 ⁱ 00:39:34 -!- augur has joined. 00:39:38 ⁱ am exciting 00:39:56 ⁿⁱⁿⁱ 00:40:07 moⁿqy 00:40:13 \ⁿ/ 00:40:15 shachaf: I watched that cutscene and now I have a sad. 00:40:18 moⁿqⁱ 00:40:20 It's your sad. I blame the sad on you. :'( 00:40:37 ⁿoⁿqⁱ 00:40:40 elliott: :-( 00:41:06 elliott: The only solution is more sad videos. 00:41:49 @time 00:41:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:41:53 Phantom_Hoover: What time is it in Canada? 00:42:41 ⁱⁿ Canada 00:42:47 ⁱⁿ Caⁿada 00:43:04 monqy: Don't you mean: ⁿⁿoⁿqy 00:43:20 do I? 00:43:26 o~o 00:43:29 do ⁱ? 00:44:40 elliott: You should play the Neverhood. 00:44:51 I've played the Neverhood, dude. 00:45:01 You should complete the Neverhood. 00:45:57 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 00:46:23 I might have. My memory is notoriously aardvark. 00:47:17 shachaf: Write my MediaWiki extension for me. 00:47:25 elliott: Done. 00:47:46 Thanks. 00:47:51 elliott: I wrote it in bash and all it does is print "hi monqy". 00:48:00 Thanks. 00:48:13 #!/bin/bash 00:48:15 echo hi monqy 00:48:18 hi monqy 00:48:22 hi shachaf 00:49:27 01704 # Special case optimisation 00:49:30 YOU'RE A SPECIAL CASE OPTIMISATION 00:50:05 01704 TAGALOG LETTER GA [ᜄ] 00:50:11 01033 wfRunHooks( 'UserLoadFromDatabase', array( $this, &$s ) ); 00:50:12 thankse 00:50:15 YOU'RE A TAGALOG LETTER GA 00:50:33 01033 MYANMAR VOWEL SIGN MON II [ဳ] 00:50:51 MON II: THE ENMONNENING 00:53:58 This is annoying. 00:55:23 shachaf: Fix my code. 00:58:28 Unicode calls it "Myanmar" and not "Burmese"?? 00:59:48 kmc: probably for "neutrality" 01:01:15 er, why would one or the other be neutral? 01:01:33 that's why i put it in scare quotes :P 01:01:37 each term will be seen by some as implicitly supporting or rejecting the junta government 01:01:57 "myanmar" is the official name according to the country's present rulers, so maybe that's what they go on 01:02:04 yeah, that's what i meant 01:02:04 but what about languages used in more than one country 01:02:23 implicitly accepting the official name probably seemed less of a political move than going against it, even if they both have connotations in reality 01:02:30 apparently the UN call it Myanmar 01:05:00 mediawiki really dosen't like having lowercase usernames 01:05:16 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:06:29 yeah 01:07:05 kmc: train expert, mediawiki expert 01:08:22 the UN has more direct need to appease the present government of MyanBurma as opposed to historical or linguistic concerns 01:08:27 see also: FYROM 01:18:44 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:19:41 more like firey ROM am i 'correct' 01:24:16 lambdabot: is elliott 'correct' 01:24:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:25:44 -!- augur has joined. 01:26:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:27:38 -!- augur has joined. 01:28:29 i might be wrong 01:38:24 The dvi-processing package I send doesn't work so hopefully this time I will fix it. 01:39:23 elliott 01:43:07 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:46:55 -!- lambdabot has joined. 01:52:58 -!- NihilistDandy has quit. 02:09:48 ⁱRuh roh. 02:10:01 Ruh roh, I had Unicode on my buffer! 02:10:05 But more to the point, 02:10:21 Ruh roh, my nasty zombifoot picture is now in my Google Images results ... 02:14:54 X-D 02:15:11 RocketJSquirrel: Take it down and I'll kill you. 02:17:40 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:27:43 kmc: You always talk about how annoying it is that you can't get various simple data structures as part of the C standard library, right? 02:30:22 yes 02:30:45 Do you have a simple solution to that problem? :-( 02:31:43 The simplest thing that comes to mind for some use cases is "use C++", since it has a pretty good C FFI and all. 02:32:59 my solution is usually "think about the problem really hard until you don't need as many datastructures" 02:33:31 sometimes you can use the pitiful builtin stuff like qsort, bsearch, hsearch, tsearch 02:33:37 Maybe that's the trick. 02:33:43 (actually i did not know about the last one until just now) 02:33:58 and i mean, there *are* data structure libraries for C, you just need to find them and figure out how to use and link and distribute them 02:34:03 The trick is to pretend malloc will kill you. 02:34:26 often the trick is to not care about performance until you need to 02:34:34 -!- itidus21 has joined. 02:34:48 like a problem I would do with an associative data structure in Haskell or Python, i will solve first with a linear search in C 02:34:58 * shachaf sighs. 02:35:05 because doing anything better is a pain, and it usually doesn't matter 02:35:18 and C code tends to run really fast to begin with 02:36:46 That's true... 02:36:53 * shachaf sighs again. 02:37:14 i see this a lot in Linux kernel and associated tools 02:37:25 which you may rest assured is written by C-loving Real Programmers 02:37:49 the Linux kernel did not even have a generic binary search function until recently 02:37:55 often the trick is to not care about performance until you need to 02:37:58 * elliott [snarks about C.] 02:38:00 every system that needed one would code their own 02:38:11 often they make the classic bsearch mistake 02:38:39 If the main reason I want to use C is that I'm calling C functions, maybe I should just use a higher-level language with an FFI. 02:38:42 bsearch is easy enough that most people won't believe you when you tell them people frequently screw it up 02:38:51 What's the classic bsearch mistake? 02:38:57 mid = (start+end)/2 02:39:00 overflow 02:39:12 shachaf, have you used Python's ctypes module? 02:39:14 Oh, that classic bsearch mistake. 02:39:19 Nope. 02:39:23 it's really slick 02:39:49 The problem with using C FFIs in higher-level languages is that you immediately want to make a higher-level interface to the C functions. 02:40:03 And you can spend any amount of time on that. 02:40:07 ctypes.CDLL("libc.so.6").printf("Hello, %s!\n", "world") 02:40:15 yeah 02:42:11 it doesn't have any typechecking, though 02:43:22 Haskell's FFI is also pretty nice. 02:43:35 But C-style code in Haskell looks really ugly next to Haskell-style code. 02:45:41 What's a reasonable way of running a system call with ptrace, by the way? 02:46:07 Maybe using the VDSO. 02:49:00 you mean, you want to attach to another process and force it to make a system call? 02:49:10 Right. 02:49:24 nelhage spend some time on that question for reptyr 02:49:39 WHen I did this before I just overwrote the instruction at ~%rip with the system call instruction. 02:49:47 But that doesn't seem very thread-safe, if nothing else. 02:50:00 shachaf: That's what weboflies does. 02:50:30 elliott: What's a Webo Flies? 02:50:32 i recommend doing whatever he does 02:50:37 unless it's obviously crazy 02:50:45 kmc: Is this general life advice or about ptrace in particular? 02:50:55 -!- Tod-Autojoined2 has changed nick to TodPunk. 02:50:55 You can arbitrarily modify its registers, can't you? So you should be able to essentially force it into a function call, and generate the function. 02:51:13 Why didn't kmc tell me about reptyr before now? 02:51:15 RocketJSquirrel: Right, but I don't want to just overwrite arbitrary memory that may be used by other threads. 02:51:23 elliott: Because you weren't in #haskell-blah. 02:51:30 shachaf: RocketJSquirrel means just set the stack pointer. 02:51:30 I'm pretty sure kmc told #-blah about reptyr a while ago. 02:51:32 I think. 02:51:42 shachaf: I think that's a net negative. 02:51:47 shachaf, some from column A, more from column B 02:51:48 shachaf: Just generate a function that does pushall, the syscall, popall, ret, spluf the stack pointer and IP to be in that function, and let it go. 02:51:57 What does the stack pointer have to do with it? 02:52:08 i think his approach involves waiting until the program does a syscall, and rewriting the args on the way 02:52:10 RocketJSquirrel: I don't need to push registers. I already know the debugee's registers. 02:52:16 Erm, not stack pointer. 02:52:26 and adjusting the saved PC so it hits the syscall instruction again 02:52:27 I'm just saying that RocketJSquirrel's solution means you can just allocate more memory. 02:52:30 kmc: Oh. That seems annoyingly complicated. 02:52:35 s/complicated/fragile/ 02:52:39 Not fragile. $ADJECTIVE 02:52:44 you can do multiple syscalls in a row this way, but you have to wait for the program to try to do one first 02:52:45 kmc: Can you tell that person who wrote reptyr I have a feature request? The feature request is that it should support migrating processes to other machines too. Thx 02:52:47 What if the program doesn't do any system calls? 02:52:50 Should be a weekend job 02:52:59 shachaf, it seems to me less fragile than other-modifying code 02:53:04 @google cryopid 02:53:06 http://cryopid.berlios.de/ 02:53:06 Title: CryoPID - A Process Freezer for Linux 02:53:06 shachaf: You're generating a function /for the guest/, which may or may not need to pushall depending on what the syscall code does. 02:53:16 if it doesn't do any system calls, then you need some additional hax 02:53:18 RocketJSquirrel: The question is where I write that function. 02:53:26 kmc: Right -- which is why I was thinking of using the VDSO. 02:53:37 istr his approach is more involved than what I just said, so you should read the reptyr code 02:53:37 shachaf: Admittedly I don't know the ptrace interface well enough to answer that. 02:53:52 But if you can allocate memory, there ya go. 02:53:54 well on x86-64 Linux the VDSO doesn't have an address for generic "jump here to make a syscall", iirc 02:53:57 Just handle that memory yourself. 02:54:09 Alternatively I could search the process's address space for a system call instruction, but I don't like that. 02:54:13 but there probably *is* a syscall instruction somewhere in the VDSO 02:54:18 kmc: All I need is a "syscall" or "inx $0x80" instruction. 02:54:21 right 02:54:33 Searching a few pages is better than searching the entire address space of the process. 02:54:47 shachaf: You don't know there'll be such an instruction! 02:54:50 What is shachaf doing, anyway? 02:55:10 elliott: Instructin'. 02:56:02 nelhage made reptyr portable? 02:56:09 He is clearly a better person than I am. 02:56:13 how portable are we talking 02:56:19 sez linux only on github 02:56:28 ARM and x86{32,64} 02:56:39 On Linux. 02:56:42 Not that portable, I guess. 02:56:45 But still. 02:57:06 there are at least two common ARM Linux syscall ABIs 02:57:22 but i suppose that's no worse than x86 02:58:02 shachaf, dude, did i tell you about the magical arm qemu schroot?? 02:58:14 I don't think so? 03:00:16 I think kmc is just making up words. 03:00:25 no this shit is fantastic 03:00:34 I was kidding. 03:00:39 shachaf: Wait, CryoPID works across machines? 03:00:41 How? 03:00:48 both that it works at all, and that it works as described out of the box without bullshit 03:00:56 sudo apt-get install ubuntu-dev-tools qemu-user-static; mk-sbuild --arch=armel precise; sudo schroot -c precise-armel-source 03:00:59 "Last updated: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:22:37 +0800" -- I guess you need a flexible definition of "works". 03:01:08 elliott: Doesn't it? Assuming the machines are similar enough. 03:01:19 elliott: The author is on IRC. I talked to them in #cryopid once! 03:02:18 Was that in 2005? 03:02:34 No, 2011. 03:03:15 shachaf, running this on amd64 linux gives you a chroot full of ARM Linux binaries (specifically, Ubuntu 12.04 for armel) which work fine and talk to the native OS/kernel 03:03:33 * shachaf is still in the downloading phase. 03:03:39 Wait, will this download all of Ubuntu? 03:04:10 yes, it will install ubuntu in a chroot (debootstrap-style) 03:04:48 qemu can do CPU emulation for a single process, while also translating the system call ABI 03:05:00 Oh, now I see what you mean. 03:05:01 so you can run an ARM Linux binary on amd64 Linux without emulating a whole ARM system 03:05:09 And it actually works? 03:05:12 yep 03:05:24 this also sets up a binfmt_misc handler so you can execve(2) ARM Linux binaries directly 03:05:41 and the handler is statically linked qemu-arm-static so it works even in the chroot, where ld-linux.so.3 is an ARM executable 03:06:21 and so it works like any other chroot 03:06:41 which led to a comment by me "ttants: halting a VM, halting a chroot" 03:06:51 ttants = Things That Are Not The Same 03:07:28 elliott, hey, what was NQwhatever trying to say when he wanted to be unbanned? 03:08:00 shachaf, schroot itself is also pretty nice 03:08:11 Sgeo: Huh? 03:08:18 Sgeo: He has never asked to be unblocked. 03:08:24 Indeed, he has never even acknowledged that he is blocked. 03:08:27 kmc: I'm still doing the apt-get. :-( 03:08:34 I don't got that kinda bandwidth, man. 03:08:37 it's a nice way to manage persistent ("-source") chroots and ephemeral copy-on-write sessions of those 03:08:45 elliott, he did in here, did you read logs? 03:08:49 it's what debian and ubuntu use for most (all?) of their package building 03:08:50 Well, talked about it 03:08:51 Sgeo: Oh. Please link me. 03:09:03 it can do the COW by various methods (aufs, lvm snapshot) 03:09:04 Never mind, I will search. 03:09:19 11:46:37: If anyone unblocks me I will work on UniCode, but unfortunately, nobody will. 03:09:21 but if you have enuf RAM, the best way is to store the source chroot as a tarball and untar it into a ramfs ;P 03:09:26 and it supports that too 03:09:26 I wonder if this is meant to make me *want* to unblock him. 03:09:33 because the sequential read on the tarball is fast 03:09:39 12:57:58: I'm only waiting for the time when I can ask an administrator to unblock me. 03:09:50 Sgeo: Well, I told him how to appeal his block (on his user talk page). 03:10:12 Sgeo: If he wants to do it on IRC, it'll have to be when I'm around. 03:10:20 I guess it's a bit much to ask someone to fit an entire debian install in RAM 03:17:22 *********************************************** 03:17:22 * Before continuing, you MUST restart your * 03:17:22 * session to gain "sbuild" group permissions! * 03:17:22 *********************************************** 03:17:55 Restarting my session is far too much of a hassle. 03:18:31 oh, i finally figured out a workaround 03:18:44 su - shachaf 03:18:56 Right, I just figured that out. 03:19:02 Actually I did sudo su - and then su - shachaf 03:19:03 or "ssh localhost" ;) 03:19:05 But I guess it works directly too. 03:19:06 heh 03:19:29 Why is that restriction, anyway? 03:19:36 For that matter, how do groups actually work in UNIX? 03:19:40 yeah i don't know 03:19:46 i think the answer to B will give you the answer to A 03:20:12 Presumably, yes. 03:20:13 the explanation i've heard is that "login" maps your alphanumeric username to a uid, and similarly it maps your set of group names to a set of gids 03:20:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:20:36 Groups are one of those weird things. Like how environment variables don't actually exist. 03:20:39 it's probably a good thing that the kernel is not reading /etc/groups on every file access 03:20:40 Right. So the kernel associates a set of gids with a particular process? 03:20:42 elliott, they don't? 03:20:50 kmc: Only when you start a new program! 03:20:54 The rest is, like, a libc illusion, man. 03:21:00 ah right 03:21:06 Hmm? 03:21:14 they exist as just some data on the stack 03:21:14 shachaf: Environment variables are just things you pass to exec. 03:21:21 The mutable environment you get in C is just managed by libc. 03:21:33 Oh, sure. 03:21:42 That's "existing" in my book. 03:21:51 $ cat /prof/self/environ 03:22:02 is that the environment as of execve 03:22:18 Should be. Kernel has no way of knowing anything else. 03:22:21 No, it's the contents of /prof/self/environ. 03:22:25 kmc: Looks like ptrace syscalls work the way you described, by the way. 03:22:32 What's that way? 03:22:43 Er, in reptyr. 03:22:47 By waiting for a syscall to happen. 03:23:28 shachaf: Just ask ais523 what Web o' Flies doe. 03:23:29 does. 03:23:31 Or I can check it for you. 03:23:35 Do you want me to check it for you? 03:23:43 What's Web o' Flies? 03:23:52 Web o' Flies is the most terrible program ever written. 03:23:56 It makes Linux deterministic in user-space. 03:24:05 That means it does its own scheduling, for one thing. 03:24:21 I don't think nelhage's solution will work that well for me. 03:24:39 OK, lemme figure out where weboflies.c is. 03:24:51 Hmm, maybe if I'm tracing a process from the beginning, I can just allocate a page for myself right as the program starts. 03:25:09 Maybe I should ask nelhage for his rationale. 03:25:12 Web o' Flies is the most *amazing* program ever written, you mean. 03:25:24 I imagine it's along the lines of "it was the simplest reasonably-elegant thing to do". 03:26:16 shachaf, https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/cred.h#L31 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/cred.h#L150 03:27:30 elliott: DragonFly BSD will also do it. 03:28:12 kmc: Weird. 03:28:21 shachaf: What, process migration? Yeah, I know. 03:29:12 ais523: ping 03:29:30 so yeah, there's just an array of gids basically 03:29:47 'struct cred' is the struct that holds all the uid / euid / gid nonsense 03:29:59 it used to be part of the task struct but was factored out in 2.6.20something 03:29:59 Right. 03:30:06 I always thought of a user as being "in a" group. 03:30:28 i mostly know about it because of commit_creds(prepare_kernel_cred(NULL)) :D 03:30:43 (ah it was 2.6.29) 03:30:52 RocketJSquirrel: cping 03:30:54 RocketJSquirrel: ping 03:32:20 RocketJSquirrel: PANG YOU SDLJKF 03:32:21 sdf 03:32:23 jhij 03:32:24 hi 03:32:29 hi monqy 03:34:03 RocketJSquirrel: UR NOT SO ROKIT AFTERR ALL 03:35:00 Finding the VDSO involves parsing /proc/pid/maps, right? 03:37:37 I did read the IRC logs; Canada is different to United Kingdom (except the queen). 03:38:06 elliott: pong 03:38:28 ais523: how does weboflies force the running program to do a syscall? (does it ever?) 03:38:36 or, more generally, how does it force the running program to do anything :) 03:38:43 it only needs to do so when the running program's already doing a syscall 03:38:52 in which case it just rewinds the IP to just before the syscall so that it does another syscall 03:39:02 then it edits which syscall it is in memory 03:39:32 (strangely, it turns out that Linux's ABI actually requires it to be possible to repeat a syscall by rewinding the IP two bytes on x86, but just to be sure I check the asm to make sure that it's the asm for a syscall) 03:39:36 (well, the machine code) 03:40:08 shachaf: Hope that was unhelpful! 03:40:22 ais523: How would you make a ptrace-running program do a syscall if it isn't planning to? 03:40:25 You're an expert. 03:41:06 elliott: well, you need the program to be stopped to do anything, which requires the use of SIGTRAP, I guess 03:41:25 then you could rewind the IP two bytes, remember what those are, and replace them with a syscall instruction 03:41:34 then catch the syscall returning and put the bytes back to what they were 03:41:49 not entirely sure why you'd want to do that, but that's the easiest way I can think of 03:42:32 ais523: But threads. 03:42:35 Other threads might access that code. 03:43:08 hmm, right, I guess, you'd have to ptrace and stop them too 03:43:15 shachaf: HTH. 03:43:22 ais523: What if you don't want to stop them? 03:43:25 you can ptrace into threads by trapping the fork and clone syscalls 03:43:30 ais523: Could you allocate some memory to store some code in to set the IP to, perhaps? 03:43:49 well, that would require a syscall 03:43:58 Oh, wait, you wrote something in here. 03:44:00 so you'd have a bit of a chicken and egg problem 03:44:17 ais523: Oh, so it does what reptyr does. 03:44:18 however, you could just inject the memory allocation into one of the syscalls ld-linux.so made while loading the executable 03:44:28 so yes, that might work 03:44:38 I'm increasingly dubious about what you'd want this for, though :) 03:44:45 Ask shachaf. 03:45:06 shachaf: /proc/pid/maps is the easiest and officially supported way to find the VDSO, I think 03:46:07 ais523: What, making a system call in the debugee? Is that too much to ask? 03:46:18 shachaf: what specifically are you trying to do? and when? 03:46:46 the problem is that while a program's making a system call, it's executing kernel rather than user code (or rather, the kernel's executing code on its behalf) 03:46:55 so putting it at arbitrary points in the code is probably a bad idea 03:47:10 if you just want to add your own syscalls where it's already making syscalls, it's easy (and web of lies does that to some extent) 03:47:12 ais523: Huh? Why? 03:47:20 either replacing the original syscall, or using it plus an extra one 03:47:25 It's just an instruction, and everything goes through the registers anyway. 03:48:09 shachaf: right; and running arbitrary asm instructions would also be difficult 03:48:15 if you didn't want to break thread-safety 03:48:33 (although typically you could just do their result on the process's memory and registers directly) 03:48:52 again, I ask: what are you trying to do? I've given my explanations as to the answer to your question, but have a suspicion that you're asking the wrong question 03:49:13 ais523: So what I'm planning on doing now is using the VDSO to make the system call, rather than modifying memory. 03:49:29 shachaf: you are ignoring me 03:49:33 :-( 03:49:58 ais523: I want to call mmap() and mprotect() and that sort of thing on a debugged process. 03:50:43 well, your debugger's going to be inserting trap instructions into the code anyway, isn't it? 03:51:00 No? 03:51:07 shachaf: well, how does your debugger stop the code? 03:51:17 PTRACE_ATTACH or something. 03:51:36 However they normally do it before there are any breakpoints. 03:51:50 they normally use PTRACE_TRACEME in a child process 03:52:01 and then get that child process to exec the thing it's debugging 03:52:08 so the process is being ptraced all the time it exists 03:52:09 If they're running a new program, yes. 03:52:18 In which case I can allocate memory for it anyway. 03:52:18 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:52:26 But in other cases they attach to a running process. 03:52:35 using PTRACE_ATTACH is equivalent to sending the process SIGSTOP and catching that 03:52:57 so you're stopping the process with signals 03:53:06 debuggers normally don't do that, though, because it's very hard to aim 03:53:36 I don't know that I care about precision too much. 03:53:42 typically they're aiming for a particular point in the code, rather than just "whenever my SIGSTOP/SIGTRAP happens to land" 03:54:05 cool, nelson wrote a whole blog series on termios 03:54:07 * kmc reads 03:54:13 termios pt. 1 03:54:18 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRLGKJSLFKSDFL:SDKFSD:LFK 03:54:19 termios pt. 2 03:54:25 A:SLDKLA:SDK:ASLKD:ASDLKASDL:KASDL:KASDL:KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 03:54:26 termios pt. 3 03:54:34 HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWHYGODWHYGODWHYHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 03:54:34 well, injecting an mmap into a random point of someone else's code isn't necessarily going to produce useful results 03:54:38 termios pt. 4 03:54:48 THEREISNOJUSTICETHEREISONLYSINALLLIFEISSUFERINGOHGODNOTTHEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 03:55:17 what if their code is trying to do an mmap at the time, for instance? (that said, it probably wouldn't matter unless whichever one came second had a fixed address) 03:55:43 allocating a page to hold a syscall instruction is still a good idea 03:55:55 kmc: Even with the VDSO? Why? 03:56:00 well i don't know about that 03:56:24 shachaf: anyway, if you're injecting mmaps into their code as it is, why not just inject another mmap to hold the syscall instruction? 03:56:47 ais523: Right -- assuming I can get one to hold a syscall instruction in the first place. 03:56:49 because mmap is the syscall? 03:56:58 shachaf, i meant that if you're doing what reptyr does -- injecting a syscall when the process does one 03:57:09 then you effectively only need to do that once 03:57:09 Ah. 03:57:18 because the syscall you inject can set up a page for making syscalls 03:57:23 In that case, sure, you can allocate a page or something to save yourself from doing it again. 03:57:40 by the way, did y'all see the paper that replaced the system call mechanism with user/kernel polling of a memory ringbuffer? 03:58:07 Have I mentioned that syscalls are terrible? 03:58:15 hi @elliott 03:58:17 kmc: no, but it sounds like a bad idea (gut reaction) 03:58:25 * shachaf didn't see that paper. 03:58:50 it's a good idea if you want low latency and high throughput rather than maximum CPU efficiency 03:58:58 shachaf: Did you know that syscalls are terrible? 03:59:10 i mean what you really want then is to put the kernel on one core and your app on another 03:59:16 so there are never any context switches 03:59:24 * kmc tries to find paper 03:59:25 @ doesn't have syscalls, it just runs everything in ring 0 and links the kernel into the executable 03:59:31 yes 03:59:31 ais523: Exactly. 03:59:37 using proof carrying code? :D 03:59:37 and instead just statically verifies that the code doesn't break security 03:59:42 No, ais523 isn't joking, that's literally waht it does. 03:59:50 kmc: Mostly just compilers I arbitrarily ordain to be trusted. 03:59:50 "does" 03:59:54 But proof carrying code would work too. 03:59:57 I like your tense there, elliott. 04:00:03 shachaf: ais523 started it! 04:00:13 ais523 isn't you. 04:00:32 See, I was just about to ask kmc if he knew that syscalls were terrible. But then ais523 educated him for me. 04:00:36 Now he sees the Light. 04:01:03 they're terrible in many ways, i don't know which you mean 04:01:14 elliott: seen Google Native Client? it seems to have a pretty similar idea to @ 04:01:18 wrt syscalls 04:01:27 except with library calls instead 04:01:27 ais523: Yes, it's intriguing. 04:01:39 kmc: The Way they're broken is that they don't follow the Way (which is whatever @ does). 04:01:43 But they're like slow and ugly and shit, you know? 04:01:50 @ isn't slow, ugly *or* shit! 04:02:03 (And it is, at the same time. That's what's great about vacuous properties.) 04:02:08 (See, shachaf, I can do it too!) 04:02:09 @ isn't fast, beautiful, or good. 04:02:13 Well, maybe it's beautiful. 04:02:19 monqy: is @ beautiful 04:02:22 elliott: did you try out aimake, btw? 04:02:24 @ is fast! 04:02:26 ais523: Not yet. 04:02:28 ais523: Can it compile @? 04:02:35 is @ written in C? if not, probably not 04:02:36 there's a sandboxing idea (don't remember if it's the one used by NaCl) where you have untrusted code running in a seccomp sandbox (so it almost can't make syscalls itself) which communicates with a helper to do syscalls on its behalf 04:02:37 it's designed for C 04:02:41 Only @ can compile @. 04:02:41 Only @ can compile @ 04:02:44 X-D 04:02:49 thus freeing the kernel from the need to implement more fine-grained sandboxing 04:02:52 You guys are all brainw@shed. 04:02:56 kmc: NaCl doesn't work like that, not least because it doesn't work on Windows 04:03:13 ais523: @ is written in C in the same way that is 04:03:32 kmc: By the way, ais523 actually lied to you about @. 04:03:34 @ doesn't have a kernel. 04:03:46 and I think there was a flavor of this where you can run unmodified untrusted Linux x86 code, by replacing the field in the glibc thread structure that says where to jump to do a syscall (which originally points to the VDSO) 04:03:54 but that won't work on amd64 04:04:04 elliott: right, I should correct it to "things that would traditionally be part of the kernel" 04:04:04 In fact, @ doesn't have anything at all. 04:04:21 oh, and I fixed an aimake bug recently, well nonportability 04:04:23 elliott: Aw, come on. I wouldn't say that. 04:04:23 I think @ is one of those things where, like Feather, it is impossible to know it's not a joke unless you were there before it became a meme. 04:04:26 someone complained it didn't run on 5.8 04:04:28 @ has all sorts of great features. 04:04:40 It may not have a type system, but it sure has a hype system. 04:04:44 -!- olsner has joined. 04:05:11 ais523: Can you kick shachaf? 04:05:33 ais523: Betcha can't kick me. 04:05:50 shachaf: unless I've been deopped recently, sure I /can/ 04:05:57 whether it would be a good idea is another issue, though 04:06:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o olsner. 04:06:16 Wh 04:06:19 olsner: Kick shachaf. 04:06:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o olsner. 04:06:26 No! 04:06:27 Fascist! 04:06:27 olsner: You heard elliott. 04:06:34 ais523: Op olsner. 04:06:44 `quote trust olsner 04:06:47 594) this strikes me as probably better than a singularity, because you can't trust a random AI, but you can probably trust olsner 04:06:50 You said it yourself! 04:06:58 well remembered :) 04:07:02 I have played Dungeons&Dragons game on Sunday this week 04:07:15 * ais523 wonders what the context was 04:07:25 don't find out, it'll ruin it 04:07:26 I managed to knock someone down a well, but they can climb back up. At least, now we know, how deep the well is. 04:07:44 zzo38: Aaaah, expendable minion pathfinding. 04:07:45 :) 04:08:00 zzo38: Are dragons real? 04:08:05 shachaf, ah, here is this paper: http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~livio/papers/libflexsc-usenix-atc11.pdf 04:08:22 pikhq: No, it was one of our opponents who was fighting us, and in a few rounds they will be able to come back up; but we may have left the room by then. 04:08:25 kmc: By the way, @ doesn't need reptyr. 04:08:28 `quote 04:08:28 shachaf: Unless by "real" you mean "not real". 04:08:30 `quote 04:08:30 That's because it doesn't have ptys. 04:08:31 469) god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself 04:08:31 `quote 04:08:33 `quote 04:08:34 `quote 04:08:35 148) OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime 04:08:35 Or processes. 04:08:37 Or code. 04:08:37 shachaf: It is just a game. None of the characters are real. 04:08:41 393) The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence. 04:08:49 553) I think it's fizzie against everyone atm AND EVERYONE IS WINNING EXCEPT FIZZIE 04:08:52 508) So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout? 04:08:59 I thought 553 04:09:02 but it's too stupid to delete 04:09:13 oh, 553 is the one there that actually made me laugh 04:09:20 393 probably isn't that good 04:09:23 meh, they're all pretty good 04:09:32 zzo38: You're not real? 04:09:35 I'd be up for deleting 393, or not deleting any 04:09:43 `quote 04:09:43 `quote 04:09:43 `quote 04:09:44 `quote 04:09:44 `quote 04:09:52 bleh, I wish that I could logically conclude from this that zzo38 was a dragon 04:09:55 shachaf: I am real; my D&D character is not really exists. 04:10:00 87) For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. 04:10:04 ais523: And that is not a correct kind of logic. 04:10:08 zzo38: Am I really exists. :-( 04:10:11 604) CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects which could form part of the emergency package for korea, on christmas eve, in the interests of consumers and the environment of gmos. 04:10:12 45) Reality isn't a part of physics 04:10:12 zzo38: I know, that's why I can't 04:10:12 715) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness 04:10:13 36) I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary 04:10:17 shachaf: Are yo usure? 04:10:22 s/yo u/you / 04:10:45 zzo38: Why do you say are me sure? 04:11:04 shachaf: Just in case you are not sure. 04:11:06 87 isn't really all that funny, 604 is untouchable because fungot 04:11:06 elliott: me! i do. " merry? you're poor enough! all i've come to love is the tension, but relationships are about compromise, but not the player should do that too 04:11:08 45 is amusing 04:11:11 715 is amusing 04:11:16 36 is amusing 04:11:20 zzo38: O. Yes, I am sure 04:11:25 604 is not good for fungot 04:11:25 ais523: all t-rex has ever met and ever will meet! never try to have a theological discussion with god and he was all " i'm busy inventing the future! 04:11:30 shachaf: OK 04:11:32 yeah ok 04:11:34 `delquote 604 04:11:35 sorry fungot 04:11:35 elliott: and so: " probably not!" well, not all of our actions, and i am, a little! 04:11:38 ​*poof* CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects which could form part of the emergency package for korea, on christmas eve, in the interests of consumers and the environment of gmos. 04:11:43 "never try to have a theological discussion with god and he was all " i'm busy inventing the future!" <-- :D 04:11:54 elliott: I suspect that's mostly literal 04:12:06 actually, maybe not 04:12:15 it's literal in two parts, i think 04:12:20 break on "and" 04:12:42 elliott: I think it may be three, you can break on "busy" too 04:12:57 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1392 + http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1824 04:14:02 it is three parts, neither of those has the "was all" bit 04:14:10 middle part might be harder to find 04:14:11 oh, indeed 04:14:29 unfortunately, "he was all" appears frequently in Dinosaur Comics :) 04:14:33 well, 8 times 04:14:46 "and he was all" only 4 04:14:53 By the way, did you know that foo = (Foo *)(void *)bar; isn't the the same as foo = (Foo *)bar; in C++? 04:14:55 aha 04:14:56 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1286 04:15:01 "God and he was all" 04:18:25 shachaf: What's the distinction? 04:18:56 pikhq: Casting can change the value of a pointer. 04:19:00 ... 04:19:10 But not casting to void, I assume. 04:19:26 No, but casting to a superclass. 04:19:35 Unless someone defined operator void*. 04:19:49 Wait, you can do that? 04:19:59 Yes. 04:20:19 How does that work? 04:20:26 It's used so you can do if(foo) on an arbitrary object. 04:21:07 shachaf: Obvious. It overrides the void* cast. 04:21:25 whereas if you tried to define casting to boolean, it could be used in arithmetic 04:21:35 Yes. 04:21:40 and void* is just as good as bool for the condition of an if statement 04:21:42 I didn't know you could overload C-style casts. 04:21:55 ais523: that lets you define safe booleans in C++, btw 04:21:59 that stop you adding them, etc. 04:22:02 I dunno if you can in general, or if void* is a special case. 04:22:04 conclusion: C++ is busy using its features working around other of its features 04:22:14 elliott: but that don't stop you passing them to memcpy 04:22:18 shachaf, one thing i like about the magic qemu chroot is that I can use make -j12 without emulating a 6 core ARM machine 04:22:37 void* is not a boolean type… 04:22:39 but this got me thinking, does qemu cache the translations of chunks of /usr/bin/gcc between runs? i don't think it does 04:22:43 Yup, it's general. 04:23:10 Can we make up the LLVM+BLISS+WEB combination of programming language? All three have features I like that should belong to a programming language for similar use like C and so on. 04:23:37 ais523: well, no, it doesn't 04:23:41 ais523: but that's a rarer error :) 04:23:41 So, foo=(Foo*)(void*)bar isn't the same as foo=(Foo*) in two ways. 04:23:46 ais523: I didn't mean use void * directly 04:23:49 I meant use a class with operator void * 04:23:59 that's defining an implicit cast, isn't it? 04:24:05 so you could still pass it to memcpy 04:24:08 yes 04:24:31 ais523: Unfortunately for C++, in GNU C pointer arithmetic on void* is defined. 04:25:04 pikhq: however, it does give a warning by default on that 04:25:14 or possibly only with a standard rather than gnuish --std 04:26:01 goto *(void*)0; 04:26:12 Conclusion: C++ is a twisty maze of features, all alike. 04:26:50 LLVM lacks macros and stuff, so adding BLISS style macros and other features from BLISS and WEB would probably make a programming language which it can be written a programs in! 04:26:52 nah, the problem with C++ is that most of its features are designed to dodge deficiencies in other of its features 04:27:21 It also has at least two different renditions of most of its features. 04:28:40 Consider std::vector and blocks of memory allocated via new foo[]. 04:29:00 Heck, consider new and malloc. 04:29:03 those aren't very equivalent 04:29:12 new and malloc are closer 04:29:25 kmc: They're similar, and can be used for similar purpose. 04:29:32 i mean, I think one of the biggest flaws in C++ is that they tried to incorporate C wholesale, rather than designing a sane contained C FFI 04:29:40 that's where much of the duplication comes from 04:29:42 (except, C++ being what it is, you can't realloc those new foo[]s. 04:29:43 ) 04:29:50 vector is higher level than new, for that reason among others 04:30:06 it makes sense to have new[] (a language feature) and also std::vector (a library implemented using that feature) 04:30:08 "one of the biggest flaws of C++" -- C++ has small flaws? 04:30:13 yes 04:30:15 In general, C++ has a high-level way and a low-level way. 04:30:25 elliott: sure, if something has a bunch of large flaws, wouldn't you expect it to have minor ones too? 04:30:27 And often has a high-level C++ way, a low-level C++ way, and a low-level C way. 04:30:34 ais523: there's nothing small about C++ 04:30:35 pikhq, I can't complain when the high-level way is a library 04:30:52 i mean, isn't that how things should work? a suite of core features, with a standard library that uses them 04:30:53 like the octal syntax 04:30:56 minor flaw 04:31:02 foo > is a minor flaw 04:31:08 (and fixed in C++11) 04:31:26 Do you know the BLISS programming language? 04:31:29 i think that C++ code written carefully by experts in accordance with all C++ features, good practice, and idiom is actually rather nice 04:31:43 but it's too much work 04:32:03 and most people you can hire to code C++ don't know nearly enough of it to do that 04:32:19 kmc: new[] requires the same library, believe it or not. 04:32:20 the inbetween states where you're using some fancy C++ features but not others are pretty awful 04:32:32 do you mean because it can throw std::bad_alloc 04:32:42 Is there such a thing as a GNU BLISS compiler? 04:32:44 In part. 04:32:47 wait, no, it doesn't, because it returns NULL instead 04:32:49 i think that C++ code written carefully by experts in accordance with all C++ features, good practice, and idiom is actually rather nice 04:32:52 Have you seen boost? 04:33:03 i thought allocations of pointer type return NULL and allocations of other type throw 04:33:04 elliott, yes 04:33:10 many parts of boost are nice to use 04:33:26 the guts are a bit nasty, in part because they accommodate tons of broken/incomplete compilers 04:33:46 "A bit"? 04:33:55 Have you seen the source code to boost::optional or whatsit? 04:34:04 yes 04:34:32 C++ applications code does not look like Boost missing-stdlib code 04:34:33 elliott: no, although I get the feeling it would be interesting 04:35:04 i think C++ is basically a bad language, but the way in which it's bad is almost the opposite of the way most languages are bad 04:35:08 which makes it a fascinating case 04:36:17 void *operator new(size_t size) actually is part of the C++ standard library; it literally doesn't exist in freestanding implementations. 04:36:22 C++ is a language I really can't bring myself to dredge up any sympathy for in any capacity other than a curio. 04:36:23 kmc: Then which is better? LLVM? 04:36:32 I can even say kind words about Java sometimes. 04:36:33 (that there is such a thing as freestanding C++ is a bit scary) 04:36:50 pikhq, that's true 04:36:59 in fact you can overload it within your namespace? 04:37:33 (but you can also add arguments, which is how memory pools are supposed to work) 04:37:39 And on individual classes, of course. 04:37:43 I should probably sleep. 04:37:44 @time 04:37:45 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:37:39 04:38:34 you don't have your time in the corner of the screen? 04:38:37 or in your IRC client? 04:39:19 what i think is particularly funny is that other languages adopted C++'s 'new' keyword, without adopting the design decisions that make it necessary 04:39:39 ais523: nope 04:39:40 what other languages other than Java? 04:39:44 elliott: wow 04:39:48 Probably C#. 04:39:56 can I blame this on XFCE? 04:39:58 kmc: I think the "delete" keyword is even funnier. 04:40:00 no, I use xmonad 04:40:02 pikhq: that's copying Java, though, not C++ 04:40:05 elliott: oh, OK, you're forgiven 04:40:07 @time 04:40:08 @time ais523 04:40:08 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:40:03 04:40:09 javascript 04:40:09 Local time for ais523 is Wed Apr 4 05:39:37 2012 04:40:13 your clock is wrong 04:40:28 no, yours is, this one's updated over ntp 04:40:35 no, yours is, I'm infallible 04:40:47 I guess ja.net's clock could be wrong, theoretically, that's what I'm syncing with 04:40:51 but I trust them 04:40:57 And C# even manages to copy Java's "Lawl EVERYTHING is a class or an object!" junk. 04:41:12 not everything is a class or an object in Java 04:41:18 i think Java would be better if it were 04:41:21 pikhq: now Java is planning to copy it back from C#, apparently 04:41:28 arrays being non-objects is stupid 04:41:35 unboxed ints I have some sympathy for, after working with Haskell :D 04:41:45 i think they should be hidden deeper though 04:41:56 you have to push some scary levers before GHC will show you an unboxed int 04:42:01 Why anyone would want “public class Hello {public static void main(String []args){System.out.println("Hello, world!\n");}}” is beyond me. 04:42:20 by which point it's less surprising that they're not first class 04:42:31 Ah, right, yeah, it's got rather annoying non-first-class primitives. 04:42:36 Because... I dunno. 04:42:38 pikhq: indeed, they should clearly use an enum 04:43:09 i mean recall that Java was originally designed to run on toasters and smart cards in 1995 04:43:29 heap allocating every integer might have been a grave performance burden 04:43:39 (of course, they *could* do a much more respectable thing: void main(String[] args){println("Hello, world!");}) 04:43:45 i think in 1995 you could barely use GHC on a commodity PC 04:44:03 And C# even manages to copy Java's "Lawl EVERYTHING is a class or an object!" junk. 04:44:08 Ja- yeah kmc said it 04:44:33 elliott: I'm mostly criticising its concept that you don't get functions outside of classes. 04:44:43 pikhq: I actually like the way you can give arbitrary classes a main, it's great for testing 04:44:53 Java's had a strange path, as far as what it was designed for vs. what it got used for 04:45:03 and I can see a plausible argument to be made that you shouldn't be allowed to have a function outside a namespace 04:45:13 however, conflating namespaces and classes is a bit weird 04:45:17 shachaf: Did you know: Haskell can be a surprisingly productive language (as I discovered writing my recursive-line-count program). But dealing with the perils of concurrency, IO, and exceptions kills it. 04:45:30 WOW RECURSIVE LINE COUNT 04:45:32 YOU ARE A HASKELL EXPERT 04:45:39 ais523: Why not have each file implicitly be a namespace? 04:45:49 This *also* gets rid of the annoying filename-class name redundancy. 04:45:58 pikhq: that's a valid viewpoint, I think I can agree with it 04:46:09 the main disadvantage is that you can't then put an entire Java program in one file, unless it has just one class 04:46:19 Java was designed for toasters and smart TV, then a failed attempt at becoming Flash, then smart cards, then enterprise BankingSoftwareMiddlewareFactories 04:46:22 unless you have different syntax for private and public classes 04:46:24 kmc: Apparently he agrees that those things are nicer in Haskell than other languages. 04:46:29 Why is #include not causing pid_t to be defined when compiling with gcc -std=c99? 04:46:29 I'm not sure what kind of cognitive dissonance is going on. 04:46:29 oh and dumbphones 04:46:36 What, like Java people stick multiple classes in a file? :) 04:46:39 It works fine without that. 04:46:49 shachaf: does pid_t exist in c99? if not, you'll need a feature test macro 04:47:00 Well, it's in POSIX. 04:47:02 and... jewelry sold by Dallas Semi 04:47:02 elliott: Those things are some of the things I wanted to improve in a new programming language, similar to Haskell but it doesn't do exceptions in the way of Haskell, and other differences too 04:47:04 oh, not even that, it's because pid_t is actually in sys/types.h 04:47:16 note that std=c99 actually turns /off/ posix features 04:47:19 kmc: Why do you /ignore zzo38? 04:47:24 Or do you? I forget. 04:47:26 i don't /ignore 04:47:28 shachaf: zzo38's great, right? 04:47:28 unless you use an appropriate #define in order to turn them back on 04:47:30 kmc: Awesome. 04:47:39 I do. Not zzo38, though. 04:47:43 sometimes zzo38 says things and I do not have a response 04:47:47 the same happens for everyone 04:48:02 Oh, I didn't expect you to respond. 04:48:03 ais523: Aha, thanks. 04:48:06 sys/types.h 04:48:06 kmc: including zzo38! 04:48:08 I just wanted to check you were receiving the insights, you know? 04:48:11 And you need the appropriate #define to comply with POSIX anyways. 04:48:13 yes 04:48:19 thanks for looking out for a brother 04:48:25 No problem, pal. 04:48:37 pikhq: "#define _POSIX_SOURCE 1" is the old standard, isn't it? although there are newer ones that do the same thing 04:48:48 it's #define _POSIX_VERSION SOMETHINGNOBODYCANREMEMBER or something 04:48:53 Haskell is "surprisingly productive" because the prior assumption is that you need 20 PhDs to do anything 04:49:01 so the fact that you only need, like, half a master's degree is surprising 04:49:12 #define POSIX_ME_HARDER 04:49:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:49:15 kmc: Did you have February's exciting psychedelic adventure yet? 04:49:18 no 04:49:23 #define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200809L 04:49:44 shachaf, my friends failed to obtain the material components :/ 04:49:49 slash I failed to ask them to 04:50:04 #define _XOPEN_SOURCE 700 if you want XSI extensions. 04:50:08 (decent chance you do) 04:50:09 #define POSIX_ME_HARDER 04:50:12 Isn't the point to transcend the material world or something? 04:50:49 i think if you're not a dumbass, psychedelic drugs will make you *more* of a philosophical materialist 04:50:58 kmc: Without these macros it is utterly nontrivial to make a system that complies with ISO C *and* POSIX simultaneously. 04:51:06 by showing how all those perceptions and emotions you hold dear can be manipulated by a tiny amount of a small chemical 04:51:10 I don't even have /IGNORE on my IRC; it has /F which is used for various filters but I almost never use that command anyways (when I do use, it is usually for purpose of notification or logging) 04:51:27 (as POSIX functions are not reserved in ISO C) 04:51:46 What if you *are* a dumbass? Tough questions. 04:51:52 but it also makes the Hard Problem seem less phantasmal 04:51:57 so can encourage dualism as well 04:51:59 shrug 04:52:09 Fuck dualism. 04:53:08 kmc: I read somewhere that they make a difference between "problem" and "mystery" so I use instead the "Hard Mystery" which is a slightly different version of the "Hard Problem" of consciousness 04:53:42 who makes this difference? 04:54:02 they do 04:54:06 They 04:54:07 kmc: I did; aren't you paying attention? 04:54:13 kmc: Can't you read? 04:54:17 no :( 04:54:25 Oops. 04:54:31 sorry kmc :( 04:54:32 it is my shameful secret 04:54:35 saymc 04:54:36 kmc failed the zzo38 test 04:54:40 back to 38th grade 04:54:47 you'll never get to zzo39 at this rate 04:55:31 zzo38: Are you in 38th grade? 04:55:48 shachaf: No; I am not in school at this time. 04:55:57 zzo38 *is* school. 04:55:59 Or was that elliott? 04:56:01 (And as far as I know they do not have that many grades in school anyways) 04:56:05 Oh no, it's getting light out side. 04:56:08 Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! Help!! 04:56:12 @time 04:56:13 @time 04:56:13 @time 04:56:13 @time 04:56:14 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08 04:56:14 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08 04:56:15 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08 04:56:19 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 05:56:08 04:56:20 Help!!!! 04:56:28 elliott: Then close the window. 04:56:52 It is closed. 04:57:18 elliott: How, exactly, do you school with your sleep schedule? 04:57:20 Then close the shutter too 04:57:35 pikhq: As shachaf kindly points out, I *am* school. 04:57:41 zzo38: I don't have one of those. I'm not like you rich Canadians. :( 04:57:43 No, but seriously. 04:57:53 Stop asking boring questions. 04:58:46 pikhq: I guess you just don't understand the Hard Mystery of Sleep. 04:59:12 There's many things I don't understand. 04:59:13 * elliott 40th grade 04:59:17 * kmc hugs git rebase -i --autosquash 04:59:23 meh, how much PSE do you have in your timetable? that's a good time to sleep 04:59:51 kmc: heh, in darcs you can just commit into patches that aren't the most recent, comes to the same thing 05:00:06 heh 05:00:14 yeah git's way is kind of ad-hoc 05:00:37 git is Unix (that's a bad thing) 05:01:03 @ is @ 05:01:05 that's an @ thing 05:01:22 better than C, better than B, better than A, it's @ 05:01:52 is the implication that I "cba" to write @? 05:01:54 and Darcs is Haskell? 05:01:55 VERY DROLL SIR 05:02:00 ais523: no, darcs is Miranda 05:02:28 what's Miranda like? it used to be mentioned in the same breath as Haskell a lot, but people stopped doing that more recently 05:02:38 it's basically a predecessor to Haskell 05:02:58 it's like haskell but weird 05:03:11 no algebraic data types afaik 05:03:15 also didn't it have unlifted tuples 05:03:17 type variables are like * and ** and *** 05:03:17 *more weird? 05:03:20 ais523: oh, and 05:03:21 yeah what kmc said 05:03:31 i think it's basically not used anymore 05:03:36 it had one, commercial, implementation 05:03:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:03:45 Miranda and Clean are basically uncanny valley to me 05:03:50 they're like Haskell but fucked up 05:03:54 i'm amazed someone tried to sell bad haskell 05:04:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:04:19 Did anyone buy it? 05:04:24 That would be the amazing bit. 05:04:25 hey what ever happened to iPwn Studios 05:04:26 but Miranda is more, relic of an ancient civilisation 05:04:30 Clean is like, the aliens are fucking with us 05:04:36 are they still trying to prove the Riemann Hypothesis as part of making an iPhone game 05:04:52 Cale occasionally mentions that he's still working on it. 05:04:52 kmc: Cale mentioned them today! 05:04:56 the bit of R code I've read looks like uncanny valley for Python 05:04:58 Well, indirectly, saying that he works with Haskell making games. 05:05:12 -!- calamari has joined. 05:05:13 and by "making games" he means not making games 05:05:13 I think the only employee is Cale. His job is to convince everyone else they're making a game. 05:05:28 That makes people not want to start a Haskell game company, since one already exists. 05:05:30 the game is lazily evaluated 05:05:33 It's actually a front organisation for Microsoft. 05:05:39 They're trying to make Haskell die so F# can take over. 05:05:40 it will be coded as people play 05:05:43 and therefore was never released 05:05:47 yeah Microsoft hates Haskell 05:05:48 Dude, my conspiracy theory is 10x better. 05:05:58 kmc: Hey, F# has Microsoft corporate support! 05:06:06 They're arbitrarily evil, I hear. 05:06:12 Who cares about those research lackeys? 05:06:20 i saw Microsoft kick a puppy just because they could 05:06:26 i'm glad Apple is standing up to them 05:07:03 http://ipwnstudios.com/blog The uniform capitalisation of these entries suggests to me that it was decided, as company policy, to write all content on their website exclusively in lowercase. 05:07:19 iPwn "Zynga" Studios 05:07:21 elliott: Reasonable policy. 05:07:33 (Uniform capitalisation despite diverse authorship, that is.) 05:07:35 However, some capital letters exist. 05:07:44 "iPhone", for instance. 05:07:58 iphone 05:08:13 NO NOT THE LIGHT 05:08:36 iPhoppotammus 05:09:23 -!- Jafet has joined. 05:10:46 sjopefkopfkopwefopwef 05:10:48 kmc: why amn't i sleeping 05:10:50 @time kmc 05:10:50 Local time for kmc is Wed Apr 4 01:10:23 05:10:52 see 05:10:55 you fucking americans 05:10:56 and your time 05:11:01 PH is one of you now I hate you all 05:11:03 and your 05:11:04 big food 05:11:11 and your sideways panama 05:13:30 http://blog.regehr.org/archives/696 05:15:23 fuck 05:15:24 fine 05:15:27 assholes i'll go to sleep :( 05:15:30 Seeing the contents of /proc/PID/maps printed in my terminal immediately makes me thinks my program crashed. 05:15:48 Perhaps there was those thing other than Haskell before, and now they made Haskell; but now I have other ideas too make something like Haskell but is many differences such as macros, non-layout, instance overriding and local instances, different names for many things, and other differences. 05:16:19 `cat /proc/self/maps 05:16:22 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000 05:16:33 * pikhq_ injects elliott with a pound of pure Meat 05:17:14 I don't like how some of the classes in Haskell are defined such as the Monad and Applicative class. Monad should have Functor superclass and then have return and join as its only methods 05:19:16 (And the way it is now, join is not even a class method at all.) 05:19:23 elliott: HELP 05:19:32 elliott: Why did you crash my IRC cliet. :-( 05:20:19 And the class method of Applicative should be pure and liftPair 05:20:41 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:21:17 Maybe you disagree with these things but these are my opinion. 05:22:54 In some categories all monads are applicative and in some categories that isn't, so Applicative should not be a superclass of Monad but instead be something that allows it to give default instance anyways in case of categories where that is possible 05:44:50 HackEgo, y u no ASLR 05:45:39 `sort <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps) | uniq -d 05:45:43 sort: open failed: <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps) | uniq -d: No such file or directory 05:45:50 wtf 05:47:23 `run sort <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps) | uniq -d 05:47:26 No output. 05:47:51 ` is more like #! than a shell. 05:47:54 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 05:47:54 oh 05:48:07 `cat /proc/self/maps 05:48:10 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000 05:48:10 `cat /proc/self/maps 05:48:13 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000 05:48:35 `run (cat /proc/self/maps; cat /proc/self/maps) | sort | uniq -d 05:48:38 00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 \ 00400000-0040c000 r-xp 00000000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060c000-0060d000 rw-p 0000c000 00:09 842385 /bin/cat \ 0060d000-0062e000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [heap] \ 40000000-4001e000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 836813 /lib64/ld-2.11.3.so \ 4001e000-40022000 rw-p 00000000 06:06:21 I think some people might have said that HPDF is too much monadic; well, dvi-processing doesn't do that so maybe they prefer that one 06:10:47 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 06:20:54 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 06:57:34 RAII is a weird term 06:57:43 it should be RRID 06:58:11 RRID? 06:58:17 resource release is destruction 06:58:28 that's more the point of it, i think 06:58:55 (i don't know if "destruction" is the antonym of "initialization") 06:59:16 i guess finalization is the antonym of initialization, but probably not in C++ 07:01:16 There aren't all that many languages that actually have C++-style destructors, are there? 07:01:32 i don't know of others; maybe D 07:02:26 C++ has a near-monopoly on high-level OOP with explicit resource management 07:02:28 Well, D is still garbage-collected... 07:02:33 one of many things that makes it a unique language 07:02:50 i thought maybe D has non-garbage-collected values 07:02:59 i was reading about substructural type systems in ATaPL 07:03:05 you can do some cool things 07:03:55 they introduce a system where each type is annotated as either "unrestricted" or "linear" 07:04:11 objects of linear type are used exactly one on each control flow path, so can be deallocated immediately after use 07:04:20 the GC is meant to be optional in D 07:04:28 although the standard library doesn't work properly with it turned off atm 07:04:32 then they introduce a third mode, "reference-counted" 07:05:15 -!- cheater has joined. 07:06:09 Also, isn't it conservative GC'd, i.e. crap? 07:06:28 Do you know where they have a death penalty for speaking English? 07:06:57 with functions «increment :: refcounted T -> linear (refcounted T, refcounted T)» and «decrement :: (linear T -> ()) -> refcounted T -> ()» 07:06:58 Canada? 07:07:22 Hah. 07:07:40 shachaf: I mean more specifically 07:07:46 the intended operational semantics is that of ordinary refcounting 07:07:46 Well. Yeah. Quebec is still part of Canada, non? 07:07:56 but the types make sure you've refcounted properly 07:08:11 the function (linear T -> ()) could be considered a destructor 07:09:18 pikhq_: Yes, in Quebec. It is part of Canada; but it is not the entirety of Canada. This law makes air traffic control difficult in Quebec, because air traffic control is supposed to be English by international law; so they do air traffic control in French there and that makes flights difficult 07:09:43 Try "impossible". 07:10:09 quebec has a death penalty for speaking english? 07:10:09 Air traffic control is done in English in *France* for goodness sake. 07:10:18 kmc: Probably not actually. 07:10:30 They don't have a death penalty in general, so how could they have one in specific? 07:11:17 pikhq_: Yes, in France, and everywhere in the world other than Quebec, air traffic control is English by international law. 07:22:14 kmc: you get sentenced to death by plane crash 07:22:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:23:01 either that or by accidentally a plane 07:24:51 zzo38, do you have a link about this claim? 07:24:53 http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp14371-com-annexa-467.htm 07:25:26 this indicates that both english and french are used in quebec 07:25:53 that's still bad though, because you can't understand what the other plane is saying ;P 07:26:27 http://books.google.com/books/about/The_language_of_the_skies.html?id=i-IhCl04_7kC 07:27:03 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:28:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control#Language 'Pursuant to requirements of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), ATC operations are conducted either in the English language or the language used by the station on the ground.[2] In practice, the native language for a region is normally used, however the English language must be used upon request.[2]' 07:28:52 also this doesn't apply to military aircraft 07:29:20 there was an amusing story about the korean war, when the USSR secretly sent planes and pilots to help the communist side 07:29:39 to keep it secret, they gave the pilots Russian-Korean phrasebooks for basic flying-related terms 07:30:10 and so you could listen on the radio and hear pilots talking in bad russian-accented korean 07:30:29 which would quickly devolve to russian curse words when they got in a dogfight or the plane malfunctioned 07:32:24 kmc: I do not have a link; I was told by air traffic controllers, I was not told this by the computer. Perhaps you can look it up in Wikipedia, though. 07:46:51 -!- cheater has joined. 07:55:58 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:13:33 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: Page closed). 08:14:01 nsqx was here the whole time??? 08:14:20 -!- cheater has joined. 08:19:10 He is already here 08:19:49 he left 08:19:57 he's not here at all 08:23:48 waiting in silent despair 08:27:12 hi monqy 08:40:18 huh i just learned what happens when you press ^D on a non-blank line in a cooked mode unix terminal 08:40:28 why did i never try this before 08:41:17 and ^D^D lets you end input without a trailing \n 08:43:19 also hexdump waits for two EOFs if the input is a tty? 08:43:24 wtffff 08:48:55 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:52:17 kmc: Wait, ^D works on non-blank lines? 08:52:23 Is this some new innovation? 08:52:41 I could've sworn that this thing which is working didn't use to work. 08:52:51 Which is why I always type a newline before ^D. 08:55:58 ^D on a non-blank line sends the line to the process, without a \n 08:56:10 it then lets you input more text on the same line, but you can't backspace over what was already sent 08:56:41 Right. 08:56:56 And ^D when there's no input in the buffer sends EOF. 09:07:17 * kmc read nelhage's 3-part series on termios 09:15:12 kmc: quite a lot of programs mistakenly wait for two EOFs 09:15:24 but if the input isn't a tty, you can't tell, because if it sends EOF at all it's going to always send EOF 09:15:56 ah yeah, that's what's happening 09:16:00 confirmed with cat | strace hexdump 09:16:17 so the bug tends not to be caught 09:17:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:18:23 Why do programs wait for two EOFs? 09:27:08 i recall my super-short unlambda cat did that :P 09:27:47 someone should write a browser extension which replaces every occurrence of the word "awesome" with a synonym 09:27:47 or something like that anyhow. it may have read even more EOFs. 09:51:58 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:04:21 -!- salomon has joined. 10:04:28 hi 10:04:46 i have a big problem 10:05:05 i do feel every time pain and the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy 10:05:17 its a pain body which i have 10:05:25 `? esoteric 10:05:29 i am trying everytime to accept it and it works sometimes fine 10:05:46 since now i had three dark pushes 10:05:47 This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net. 10:06:03 aha i didnt knew that 10:06:05 sorry for it 10:06:23 don't worry, you're certainly not the first :) 10:07:02 is esoterica a programming tool like java? 10:07:26 no, it's a general term for "weird" programming languages 10:07:45 `welcome 10:07:49 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 10:09:05 hmm 10:09:25 salomon: basically by esoterica.. they mean.. "esoteric stuff" 10:11:41 so ... therefore.. 10:12:18 no umm.. this room is only about programming tools like java.. thats the simple way to say it 10:13:08 except java is nowhere near weird enough for us :) 10:16:16 rottytooth posted Entropy to proggit 10:16:45 I think theres a certain sense of asceticism in esoteric programming languages 10:18:35 itidus21: well yes. the best esolangs are based around a single core idea, and don't add more than necessary beyond that. ok, except funge-98 which is good because it does the exact opposite. 10:20:05 most are also very brief with single-char commands, although there are some that do the opposite of that too (Ork) 10:20:08 i like how esolangs eschew tokens > 1 character 10:20:10 yeah 10:22:00 Glass is somewhere in between, in that it _supports_ multichar variables but they aren't used much in what i've seen. 10:22:56 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 10:23:05 -!- tswett_ has joined. 10:23:11 wat 10:23:19 :( 10:23:22 angkor 10:24:00 WAT SEEMS TO BE THE PROBLEM 10:24:40 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 10:27:41 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 10:27:42 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 10:28:08 thus splatten 10:28:56 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 10:29:05 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 10:29:05 -!- quintopia has joined. 10:29:33 apparently the server that i was on was the problem 10:29:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 10:31:05 -!- itidus21 has left ("qunitopia: i'm learning that the most cryptic part of the pc is the cpu. at first this didn't make sense to me. "). 10:31:22 -!- itidus21 has joined. 10:32:17 but even after using a pc for decades, the cpu hides well 10:33:51 -!- salomon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:40:32 cpus are fiendishly complex 10:40:53 it seems most programmers today don't even learn an instruction set architecture, let alone the details of how it's implemented 10:41:10 and i can be a crotchety old elitist and complain about this 10:41:14 but i think it's actually a good thing 10:41:25 more people are programming, and the abstractions they use are working 10:47:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:02:14 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:11:21 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:27:16 -!- olsner has joined. 11:37:53 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:09:00 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:13:00 -!- jix has joined. 13:00:03 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:00:32 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 13:01:39 -!- jix has joined. 13:07:46 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:07:50 Hello! 13:15:49 brb 13:26:10 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:30:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:11:56 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:12:01 -!- oklopol has quit (Client Quit). 14:12:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:24:40 -!- cheater_ has joined. 14:26:45 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:27:03 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:38:08 Hello! 14:40:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:40:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:43:47 -!- Ngevd has joined. 14:43:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:45:45 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:53:19 -!- nortti has joined. 14:55:29 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:04:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:31:36 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040414]). 15:35:14 -!- elliott has joined. 15:37:00 @time 15:37:01 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 16:36:55 15:37:21 -!- nortti has joined. 15:41:56 10:04:28: hi 15:41:56 10:04:46: i have a big problem 15:41:56 10:05:05: i do feel every time pain and the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy 15:41:56 10:05:17: its a pain body which i have 15:41:59 fuckin' lol 15:45:07 AWWWW did I miss that? 15:45:24 I TOO feel the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy :( 15:49:36 Also, I'm wearing Salomon (that spelling) shoes. 15:51:06 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:53:05 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | If you are feeling every time pain and the buzzing of prana, chi and enerchy, your matrix of solidity may not be idempotent. Please bring it to fixed point. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 16:01:11 -!- monqy has joined. 16:07:23 Holy shit! 16:07:54 http://ompldr.org/vZDljbA 16:11:39 wut 16:11:42 Why? 16:11:49 Bot? 16:11:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:12:04 No idea. 16:12:16 elliott@solidity:~$ sudo awk '{ hits[$1]++ } END { for (ip in hits) print hits[ip], ip }' /var/log/nginx/access.log | sort -nr | less | head -n 10 16:12:16 684 205.211.50.10 16:12:16 321 89.28.195.227 16:12:16 262 194.228.224.108 16:12:16 243 87.238.84.65 16:12:18 192 188.220.17.7 16:12:20 180 91.232.96.5 16:12:22 148 128.95.77.61 16:12:24 143 62.3.202.98 16:12:26 140 37.59.162.251 16:12:28 130 90.202.238.50 16:12:30 If it's a DOS, it's a distributed one :P 16:12:33 And the log file isn't growing at any kind of alarming rate... maybe someone's downloading the dump over and over? 16:12:47 Nope 16:12:52 Ohwait 16:12:54 Might be because of proggit 16:13:18 TESTAMENT TO MY SKILLZ THAT THE SITE IS STILL GOING STRONG EH EH 16:13:28 what did they do 16:13:45 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rrolt/entropy_a_programming_language_that_forces_you_to/ 16:14:13 I feel compelled to point out that I think Entropy is pretty neato. 16:14:50 Actually I kinda doubt proggit would give us this kind of traffic >_> 16:15:10 elliott, check referers? 16:15:43 207.238.205.226 - - [04/Apr/2012:16:14:18 +0000] "GET /wiki/Brainfuck HTTP/1.1" 200 14615 "http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?p=2421832" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:11.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/11.0" 16:15:53 Maaaaan, log file! Before today I didn't know there was such a thing as intjforum.com. 16:15:55 You have RUINED my DAY! 16:16:13 Sgeo: Yehok 16:16:38 elliott@solidity:~$ sudo awk '{ hits[$11]++ } END { for (ref in hits) print hits[ref], ref }' /var/log/nginx/access.log | sort -nr | head -n 10 16:16:38 31658 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy" 16:16:38 5912 "-" 16:16:38 965 16:16:38 817 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page" 16:16:40 576 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list" 16:16:42 528 "http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/" 16:16:44 506 "http://www.reddit.com/r/programming" 16:16:46 475 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages" 16:16:48 293 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck" 16:16:50 181 "http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&action=edit§ion=1" 16:16:54 (The reason the first count is so high is because everyone's coming to the site with a clean cache) 16:16:59 (And loading all the referenced resources.) 16:17:26 Oh well! The site is going sufficiently fast that I don't care. 16:17:40 RocketJSquirrel: (Is it loading fast enough where you are with a bigger ping?) 16:17:45 What's referer - ? 16:18:02 elliott: Doesn't seem slow at all. 16:18:50 Sgeo: No referer\ 16:18:51 * 16:19:02 Can I just say that I really love how the W3C has made a spelling error into a word. 16:19:06 That's power, right there. 16:19:11 o.O why wouldn't that show up as nothing? 16:19:17 There are 965 nothings 16:19:36 Sgeo: Those 965 nothings are probably when there was another space earlier on or something... 16:19:42 > 528+506 16:19:43 1034 16:19:50 I don't know why that would happen, but maybe if something sent "GET /wiki/Foo bar HTTP/1.1" t hat would happen. 16:19:52 s/maybe // 16:19:55 s/t hat/that/ 16:20:01 > 528+506+5912+965 16:20:02 7911 16:20:14 > 31658 16:20:15 31658 16:23:16 > 4 16:23:17 4 16:23:23 or is it 5 16:25:09 Apparently intjforum.com has people who are not INTJs. 16:25:12 I guess forum.com was taken? 16:27:32 Impossible. 16:27:32 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to PinkieP. 16:27:49 -!- PinkieP has changed nick to Pinkie_Pie. 16:27:52 -!- Pinkie_Pie has changed nick to PinkiePie. 16:27:57 -!- PinkiePie has changed nick to Pinkie-Pie. 16:28:04 -!- Pinkie-Pie has changed nick to Pinkie`Pie. 16:28:07 ... 16:28:30 -!- Pinkie`Pie has left ("Wychodzi"). 16:28:57 >_> 16:29:02 That was a nice attempt. 16:29:02 And nothing of value was lost. 16:30:46 I was sure RocketJSquirrel was going to /nick Friendship there. 16:31:48 Only if he'd stayed Pinkie Pie. 16:32:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:32:46 I'm pretty sure that was a pathetic attempt to find a variation on it that wasn't registered. 16:32:55 No, wait. 16:33:01 That was my thought too. 16:33:08 Ah, yes, indeed. 16:33:16 He now owns Pinkie`Pie`, and all the others are owned. 16:33:19 *no second ` 16:33:22 Hi oerjan can I replace your em dashes 16:33:25 I'm trying to be more British 16:33:44 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 16:33:46 It's more difficult to make variations on Applejack. 16:33:49 THEIR PURDY 16:33:54 oerjan: But spaced en dashes! 16:34:07 That's classy! 16:34:25 * oerjan didn't really know there was a cross-pond difference there 16:34:29 Technically it should be an en dash surrounded by hair spaces, but *sigh* Unicode hath forsaken us. 16:34:44 (By which I mean "provided everything we need, but it's way too much of a pain to actually use it" :P) 16:34:56 oerjan: Well, you know. Em dashes are so loud and Victorian. 16:35:03 oh. 16:35:22 * oerjan didn't know there was such a time difference, either 16:35:37 oerjan: Well, no, technically what's Victorian is double or triple em dashes :P 16:35:51 It's like ". . ." for ellipses. They rather overdid everything in those days. 16:35:52 naturally. 16:36:07 Maybe we should use ― this! 16:36:17 ― ― ― 16:36:22 Or ⁓ this! 16:36:47 DYK the Unicode name of the underscore is LOW LINE? 16:37:12 U+23E4 ⏤ "STRAIGHTNESS" 16:37:32 U+23E5 ⏥ "GAYNESS" 16:37:45 U+23E6 ⏦ "BISEXUALITY" 16:38:23 using U+23E8 triggers a police search, i assume 16:39:18 Yes, the fearsome DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL ⏨ 16:39:27 oerjan: DYK we're on proggit? 16:40:09 elliott: yes, i mentioned it in the logs (possibly you did too, i didn't read the logs myself) 16:40:26 elliott: OK, time to get those as the new adopted names in the next Unicode revision. 16:40:33 oerjan: Oh, that might be where I saw it. Or was it ais? 16:41:01 RocketJSquirrel: Yes, renaming ⏨ to DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL would be hilarious. 16:42:29 BISEXUALITY actually fits the symbol rather well, me thinks. 16:44:24 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rrolt/entropy_a_programming_language_that_forces_you_to/c48bz58?context=2 :P 16:44:29 Symbols are allowed to be in (real world) names, right? 16:44:34 Like, I can be Gregor ⏦ Richards? 16:44:38 I wanna be Gregor ⏦ Richards. 16:45:09 Is it pronounced by saying "Gregor", yelling "BISEXUALITY" at the top of your lungs, and then saying "Richard"? 16:45:32 oerjan: The gayness one isn't bad either, since it's very much a non-straight symbol :P 16:45:33 RocketJSquirrel: Prince thinks so. 16:45:55 Whoa, I just had a real Keanu Reeves thought. 16:46:01 elliott: Yes, that's how it's pronounced. 16:46:03 What character set are the Unicode character names in? 16:46:22 How come they never use lowercase? Isn't that antithetical to the entire "universal character set" thing? 16:46:47 elliott: baudot 16:47:32 I was gonna guess EBCDIC :P 16:48:40 * oerjan learns baud comes from baudot 16:49:28 Whoa, really? 16:49:48 presumably the person, not the charset 16:50:51 another idea: the names might be restricted to the _intersection_ of all known computer character sets :P 16:51:33 I suspect it's just A-Z plus space. 16:51:39 I've never seen anything but that in a character name. 16:51:54 Presumably they figure that any character set which can represent English text at all can manage that. 16:56:10 * oerjan sees in the logs elliott lives up to the wiki policy of no privacy 16:56:48 If you want privacy so desperately, you're PROBABLY a terrorist. 16:57:23 oh it's not _my_ privacy. well i didn't check if i was in it. 16:58:14 admittedly Entropy is probably not the most incriminating page. 16:59:38 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett. 16:59:48 oerjan: *eh* 17:00:03 The privacy I'll try to offer is no disclosure of realnames/emails. 17:00:17 Web server logs, those are fair game. 17:00:34 (I've already violated the realname/email thing by accident anyway >_>) 17:01:48 BTW, I've decided to install the Cite and hopefully Math extensions once MediaWiki 1.19 is out. 17:02:03 I'm going to play around to see if I can get Math working with just MathJax, because I don't want to bother with texvc. 17:02:09 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:02:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:03:11 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:03:23 oerjan: Have I mentioned that Timwi has more Stack Overflow reputation than me? :( 17:03:54 * oerjan elliott jelly 17:04:21 Wait, only 1,745. 17:04:22 NOT LONG 17:04:58 you don't have more than that already? 17:06:04 isn't that like 9 days of max reputation 17:07:43 oerjan: But elliott isn't Max. 17:07:49 oerjan: I mean, that's the difference. 17:08:20 * elliott went over that score in 7 days. 17:08:33 I've been TOTALLY LAGGING BEHIND lately though. 17:08:43 20,563 17:08:48 vs. my 18,818. 17:09:50 Oh! hammar passed cmccann. 17:10:00 How's that compare to my 14,623,4127043605,557537,545454,43,3,d,43hi,257302monqy,j847402646 karm? 17:10:10 @karma shachaf 17:10:10 shachaf has a karma of 8 17:10:13 @karma- shachaf 17:10:13 shachaf's karma lowered to 7. 17:10:14 @karma- shachaf 17:10:14 shachaf's karma lowered to 6. 17:10:14 @karma- shachaf 17:10:14 shachaf's karma lowered to 5. 17:10:15 @karma- shachaf 17:10:15 shachaf's karma lowered to 4. 17:10:16 @karma- shachaf 17:10:16 shachaf's karma lowered to 3. 17:10:16 @karma- shachaf 17:10:16 shachaf's karma lowered to 2. 17:10:17 @karma- shachaf 17:10:17 shachaf's karma lowered to 1. 17:10:21 I mean on StackOverFlow. 17:10:22 :-( 17:10:30 elliott: That's not a nice thing to do, you know. 17:10:30 @karma- shachaf 17:10:30 shachaf's karma lowered to 0. 17:10:35 shachaf: You should totally drop that and @ignore - elliott. 17:10:40 Wait, it wasn't ignoring me? 17:10:56 * *** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding 17:10:57 Oh. 17:11:11 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:11 shachaf's karma raised to 1. 17:11:15 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:15 shachaf's karma raised to 2. 17:11:16 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:17 shachaf's karma raised to 3. 17:11:17 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:18 shachaf's karma raised to 4. 17:11:18 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:19 shachaf's karma raised to 5. 17:11:20 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:20 shachaf's karma raised to 6. 17:11:21 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:21 shachaf's karma raised to 7. 17:11:21 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:22 shachaf's karma raised to 8. 17:11:22 @karma+ shachaf 17:11:22 shachaf's karma raised to 9. 17:11:26 ENJOY YOUR MEANINGLESS INTERNET POINTS 17:11:50 hi monqy 17:11:58 Good GOD how has that guy's answer got 92 points, is it because he used headings? I don't use headings in my answers. 17:12:04 Oh! hammar passed cmccann. <-- * waves the Trondheim flag 17:12:05 I guess I can blame HWN. 17:12:18 oerjan: God bless America. 17:12:27 elliott: Are you a subscriber to HWN? 17:12:47 shachaf: I read it when it comes out by going from /r/haskell. 17:12:54 oerjan: dons is still the top though. 17:13:03 oerjan: By quite a margin. 17:13:14 I'm pretty sure he just spent a year doing nothing but answering SO questions about Haskell or something. 17:13:27 Just like you're doing? 17:13:55 Yes, but I'm less famous! 17:14:03 Anyway, I don't answer SO questions. I *am* SO questions. 17:14:23 i read it when it comes out by going either r/haskell or haskell-cafe, sometimes cursing when they forget to include a link to the web version in the latter. 17:14:31 *+from 17:14:41 HWN is pretty crap, mind you. 17:14:42 *+monqy 17:14:46 I just read it for the quotes. 17:15:00 *+swat shachaf -----### 17:15:07 @slap shachaf 17:15:07 * lambdabot pushes shachaf from his chair 17:15:13 Oooh, nasty. 17:15:17 Just for the quotes by me, right? 17:15:19 @quote shachaf 17:15:20 shachaf says: In order to get the last element of a list, you have to traverse the whole list. This can be an expensive, inefficient, unlazy operation, so you should develop a distaste for it like 17:15:20 the rest of us. 17:15:32 What? That's a terrible quote. 17:15:38 Who @remembered that? 17:15:39 Don't @forget it. 17:15:42 If you do, I'll @remember it again. 17:15:46 Then it'll end up in HWN. 17:15:54 @quote shachaf 17:15:55 shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk. 17:15:58 @quote shachaf 17:15:58 shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh? 17:16:04 @quote shachaf 17:16:04 shachaf says: isTrue :: Bool -> Bool; isTrue = unsafeCoerce 17:16:09 OK, that one is good. 17:16:15 * shachaf sighs. 17:16:19 Why can't I have good quotes? 17:16:19 OK, that one is good. 17:16:20 Like 17:16:22 @quote ehird 17:16:22 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 17:16:22 Oops. 17:16:25 @quote elliott 17:16:25 elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code 17:16:29 @quote elliott 17:16:29 elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries. 17:16:31 @quote elliott 17:16:31 elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code 17:16:32 @quote elliott 17:16:32 elliott says: elliott: now its almost exactly like one of my packages ;) edwardk: no, i'm writing documentation 17:16:44 @quote elliott 17:16:45 elliott says: o'reilly publishes attoparsec tutorial: exactly the same as their parsec tutorial, but 10^-18th the size 17:17:00 @quote elliott 17:17:00 elliott says: I have weird mental spheres that I divide all my coding into and that determine editor and the like 17:17:03 what 17:17:06 @quote elliott 17:17:06 elliott says: ... [a] is more of a control structure than a data structure. 17:17:09 @quote elliott 17:17:09 elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!" 17:17:12 @quote elliott 17:17:12 elliott says: Explicit recursion should generally be avoided. Also, general recursion should be explicitly avoided! 17:17:25 i think that one is the closest i've gotten to a mcbrideism 17:17:35 i think that one is the closest i've gotten to a mcbrideism 17:17:36 oops 17:17:37 Wow, that elliott person sure says a lot of things. 17:17:38 @quote elliott 17:17:38 elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code 17:17:39 @quote elliott 17:17:39 elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics 17:17:41 @quote elliott 17:17:41 elliott says: Explicit recursion should generally be avoided. Also, general recursion should be explicitly avoided! 17:17:42 @quote elliott 17:17:42 elliott says: Array is immutable boxed UArray is immutable unboxed IOArray is mutable boxed IOUArray is an array of debts. 17:17:50 @quote shachaf 17:17:50 shachaf says: In order to get the last element of a list, you have to traverse the whole list. This can be an expensive, inefficient, unlazy operation, so you should develop a distaste for it like 17:17:51 the rest of us. 17:17:52 @quote shachaf 17:17:52 shachaf says: Real programming languages have a hype system instead of a type system. 17:17:59 Hey! 17:18:03 You reused that joke on @! 17:18:04 No fair! 17:18:06 Oh, was I talking about @ in #haskell? 17:18:07 @quote elliott 17:18:07 elliott says: |\/|/-\|-|-|=|\||} is my preferred mappend operator 17:18:13 @quote elliott 17:18:13 elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code 17:18:14 @quote elliott 17:18:14 elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics 17:18:15 @quote elliott 17:18:15 elliott says: Explicit recursion should generally be avoided. Also, general recursion should be explicitly avoided! 17:18:16 @quote elliott 17:18:16 elliott says: o'reilly publishes attoparsec tutorial: exactly the same as their parsec tutorial, but 10^-18th the size 17:18:17 @quote elliott 17:18:17 elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!" 17:18:18 @quote elliott 17:18:18 elliott says: o'reilly publishes attoparsec tutorial: exactly the same as their parsec tutorial, but 10^-18th the size 17:18:19 @quote elliott 17:18:19 elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics 17:18:20 @quote elliott 17:18:20 elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!" 17:18:20 @quote elliott 17:18:21 elliott says: Only two things in the universe are certain: Death, and two of the libraries you've decided to use taking different types of ByteString. 17:18:22 elliott: The part that makes it fair is that @ doesn't exist. 17:18:26 @quote shachaf 17:18:26 shachaf says: isTrue :: Bool -> Bool; isTrue = unsafeCoerce 17:18:28 @quote shachaf 17:18:28 shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk. 17:18:30 @quote shachaf 17:18:30 shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk. 17:18:32 @quote shachaf 17:18:32 shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files 17:18:37 * shachaf sighs. 17:18:38 @quote elliott 17:18:38 elliott says: race condition waiting to happen 17:18:38 @quote shachaf 17:18:38 shachaf says: We used to have a big collection of them but most of them got wiped in the Great Lambdabot Wipe of Every Few Months. 17:18:47 @quote shachaf 17:18:47 shachaf says: boost::lambda: The ultimate error message. 17:18:49 @quote elliott 17:18:49 elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!" 17:18:50 @quote elliott 17:18:50 Enough self-@quoting. 17:18:51 elliott says: Array is immutable boxed UArray is immutable unboxed IOArray is mutable boxed IOUArray is an array of debts. 17:18:52 no 17:18:53 @quote elliott 17:18:53 elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries. 17:18:54 @quote elliott 17:18:54 elliott says: a typeclass is nothing without semantics 17:18:55 @quote elliott 17:18:55 elliott says: Only two things in the universe are certain: Death, and two of the libraries you've decided to use taking different types of ByteString. 17:18:56 @quote elliott 17:18:56 elliott says: "with a lot of unicode" is like agda's @faq. "yes, agda can do that with a lot of unicode!" 17:18:57 @quote elliott 17:18:57 elliott says: race condition waiting to happen 17:18:58 @quote elliott 17:18:58 elliott says: ... [a] is more of a control structure than a data structure. 17:18:58 @quote elliott 17:18:58 elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries. 17:19:00 @quote elliott 17:19:00 elliott says: |\/|/-\|-|-|=|\||} is my preferred mappend operator 17:19:11 That's not even an operator. 17:19:17 x 17:19:18 @quote elliott 17:19:18 elliott says: I have weird mental spheres that I divide all my coding into and that determine editor and the like 17:19:21 sigh 17:19:22 @quote ehird 17:19:22 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 17:19:31 i was right about that 17:19:32 i think 17:19:34 when did yesod start 17:19:38 @quote ehird 17:19:38 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 17:19:39 @quote ehird 17:19:39 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 17:19:40 @quote ehird 17:19:40 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 17:19:41 @quote ehird 17:19:41 ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop. 17:19:42 wtf 17:19:45 @quote ehird` 17:19:45 No quotes match. I feel much better now. 17:19:48 @quote ehird_ 17:19:48 No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen. 17:19:50 @quote elliott_ 17:19:50 No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo? 17:19:53 @rq ehird 17:19:53 Not enough privileges 17:20:05 @help rq 17:20:05 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 17:20:09 help what is rq 17:20:14 Things are complicated because edwardk? 17:20:31 yes 17:20:34 @quote shachaf 17:20:35 shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files 17:20:36 @quote shachaf 17:20:36 shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh? 17:20:37 @quote shachaf 17:20:37 shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh? 17:20:37 elliott: rq=rc? 17:20:38 @quote shachaf 17:20:39 shachaf says: In order to get the last element of a list, you have to traverse the whole list. This can be an expensive, inefficient, unlazy operation, so you should develop a distaste for it like 17:20:39 the rest of us. 17:20:46 shachaf: Ah, yes. But coppro probably meant something else. 17:20:47 @quote shachaf 17:20:47 shachaf says: You can never escape having learned monads. If you learn two monads, though, you can go back to only knowing one. 17:20:49 Fun! 17:20:51 A new one! 17:21:05 shachaf: That's monoids, though. 17:21:11 (m, m) vs. (m . m). 17:21:12 elliott: No, it's monads. 17:21:15 No. 17:21:18 m (m a) vs. m a 17:21:20 m (m a) is not "two monads". 17:21:24 But (m, m) is "two monoids". 17:21:25 I know. 17:21:28 No it's not. 17:21:31 (If we allow "an X" = "a value of an X".) 17:21:33 It's two values whose type is the same monoid. 17:21:38 Oh piffle. 17:21:39 @quote shachaf 17:21:39 shachaf says: Real programming languages have a hype system instead of a type system. 17:21:40 monoids for a monoid under the operation "consolidate knowledge" 17:21:41 But we don't allow that. 17:21:43 @quote shachaf 17:21:43 shachaf says: @let otherfoolish = not otherwise 17:21:45 @quote shachaf 17:21:45 shachaf says: Finally an opportunity to use my numerous PhDs in monadology! Anyone need any I/O done in useless academic languages? Eh? Eh? 17:21:46 @quote shachaf 17:21:46 shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk. 17:21:47 @quote shachaf 17:21:47 shachaf says: Group projects are stupid Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity. 17:21:50 @quote shachaf 17:21:51 shachaf says: Sometimes things are complicated because the domain is complicated. Other times things are complicated because edwardk. 17:21:51 @quote shachaf 17:21:52 shachaf says: @let otherfoolish = not otherwise 17:21:52 @quote shachaf 17:21:53 shachaf says: Group projects are stupid Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity. 17:21:53 @quote shachaf 17:21:53 shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files 17:21:55 @quote shachaf 17:21:55 shachaf says: @let otherfoolish = not otherwise 17:21:56 Hmph. 17:21:57 elliott: Enough. 17:21:58 @quote coppro 17:21:58 No quotes match. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. 17:22:01 @quote oerjan 17:22:01 oerjan says: i only do impractical things 17:22:06 Wait, lambdabot knows oerjan quotes? 17:22:07 @quote oerjan 17:22:07 oerjan says: i only do impractical things 17:22:08 @quote oerjan 17:22:08 oerjan says: i only do impractical things 17:22:10 Okay, quote. 17:22:52 @quote edwardk 17:22:52 edwardk says: cmccann: the instances list haddock generates is now a thing of majesty elliott: welcome to my world 17:22:54 @quoerjan 17:22:54 Unknown command, try @list 17:22:59 Ha! 17:23:04 That edwardk quote is also a ME quote. 17:23:06 It is never enough. 17:23:15 @quote .*shachaf.* 17:23:15 djahandarie says: Group projects are stupid Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity. 17:23:22 I like how that's a dupliacte. 17:23:24 Huh? 17:23:24 dupciatec 17:23:31 dduupplliiccaattee 17:23:31 @forget djahandarie Group projects are stupid Try a semigroup project sometime. You need to lose your identity. 17:23:31 Done. 17:23:36 @quote .*shachef.* 17:23:36 No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen. 17:23:40 @quote .*shachaf.* 17:23:40 @quote .*elliot.* 17:23:40 Eduard_Munteanu says: * Eduard_Munteanu considers coining "Sufficiently advanced category theory is indistinguishable from trolling" @remember Eduard_Munteanu [snip] ... 17:23:40 coined Aw.. but I paraphrased shachaf on some other stuff. @forget Eduard_Munteanu [snip] 17:23:40 DCliche says: @remember elliott @remember @remember @remember 17:24:00 @quote .*shachaf.* 17:24:00 jmcarthur says: What have [SPJ and JaffaCake] ever done for Haskell? evil mangler? 17:24:13 @quote .*elliot[^t].* 17:24:13 No quotes match. :( 17:24:17 @quote .*eliott.* 17:24:18 No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist! 17:24:19 @quote .*eliot.* 17:24:19 No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist! 17:24:25 @quote .*ShaChaf.* 17:24:25 mauke says: mauke: EBCDIC? shachaf: ah, the data encryption standard invented by IBM? 17:24:33 @quote .*sha chaf.* 17:24:34 No quotes for this person. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga? 17:24:44 @quote goat 17:24:44 gwern says: "sm_: go fornicate yourself with a goat!" "sm_: er. that was for someone else" 17:24:54 What a gwern quote. 17:25:20 What do you call a rutabaga with CAP_SYS_ADMIN? 17:25:39 @quote CAP_SYS_ADMIN 17:25:39 No quotes match. Sorry. 17:25:43 @quote rutabaga 17:25:43 No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error. 17:25:45 @quote lambdabot 17:25:45 lambdabot says: I know nothing about wadler. 17:25:52 elliott: The answer is "rootabaga". 17:26:17 shachaf: :( 17:26:22 oerjan: Kick oerjan. Then kick shachaf. 17:26:24 @quote :( 17:26:24 Plugin `quote' failed with: regex failed: (ReturnCode 8,"Unmatched ( or \\(") 17:26:27 @quote :\( 17:26:27 fasta says: Ok, this is great, now it all appears to work. :( 17:26:29 @quote :\( 17:26:30 augur says: Saizan: theres someone in here named codensity i see im being stalked by CT concepts i dont understand :( it happens - Saizan is now known as kan_ 17:26:30 extension * kan_extension stares at augur AHHHHHH - augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [] He was never heard from again. 17:26:35 @quote :\( 17:26:36 br1 says: un banana me abrio la puerta en la cara y me rompio un pedal de la bici :( 17:26:42 un banana me abrio la puerta en la cara y me rompio un pedal de la bici :( 17:26:43 @quote :\( 17:26:44 lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :( 17:26:46 @quote :\( 17:26:46 lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :( 17:26:46 @quote :\( 17:26:47 SyntaxNinja says: You'd be surprised how hard is to hire haskellers :( They're all like, "Yeah, I'll come work for you, and by 'come' I mean stay here and work remotely and by 'work for you' I mean 17:26:47 I'll keep doing what I'm doing." ;) 17:27:20 Is *that* why they're not making any progress on that iPhone game? 17:27:27 @quote :\( 17:27:27 puusorsa says: do not try this in a shell: :() { :&:; } ;: 17:27:30 @quote :\( 17:27:30 x11 says: -- this assumes bytes are 8 bits. I hope X isn't more portable than that :( 17:27:45 @quote :\( 17:27:45 lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :( 17:27:46 @quote :\( 17:27:46 augur says: Saizan: theres someone in here named codensity i see im being stalked by CT concepts i dont understand :( it happens - Saizan is now known as kan_ 17:27:47 extension * kan_extension stares at augur AHHHHHH - augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [] He was never heard from again. 17:27:47 @quote :\( 17:27:48 puusorsa says: do not try this in a shell: :() { :&:; } ;: 17:27:48 @quote :\( 17:27:48 lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :( 17:27:49 @quote :\( 17:27:49 sm says: if this url is infinite, I'm screwed :( 17:27:50 @quote :\( 17:27:51 fasta says: Ok, this is great, now it all appears to work. :( 17:27:55 @quote :\) 17:27:55 monochrom says: Absolute0> copumpkin: do you give out free pumpkins on halloween? :) monochrom> I think copumpkin takes in free pumpkins. 17:27:58 @quote :\) 17:27:58 Cale says: Inheritance? Inheritance is broken, anyway :) 17:28:02 @quote :\) 17:28:02 Cale says: Inheritance? Inheritance is broken, anyway :) 17:28:03 @quote :\) 17:28:03 monochrom says: That does not explain why people struggle with Haskell, a language that is a clean break from other computer languages. However, I can also offer a way out: people preconceive 17:28:03 Haskell to be "just another computer language", and so they are tricked. If you sold it as "the mother tongue of Martians", perhaps they'll actually pick it up comfortably. :) 17:28:20 @kuote .*norway.* 17:28:20 No quotes match. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash. 17:28:25 @kuote broccoli 17:28:26 lambdabot says: Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash. 17:28:39 @quote poop 17:28:40 pbunbun says: "Lower, lower, LOL YOU FAILED AND NOW IT'S IN YOUR POOPER" 17:28:51 @forget pbunbun "Lower, lower, LOL YOU FAILED AND NOW IT'S IN YOUR POOPER" 17:28:51 Done. 17:28:53 @quote poop 17:28:53 byorgey says: ⊥.... is a party pooper 17:28:56 @quote poop 17:28:56 pooper says: poop 17:29:02 Well that's a good quote. 17:29:11 "poop" -- pooper. 17:29:16 elliott: Speaking of operators, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiIomFNNNxo 17:29:39 No, fuck you, I don't need that in my head. 17:29:54 It's a good song. 17:30:07 wtf, I can now do my tax returns "in the app" 17:30:17 "it's a good song" -- "olsner" 17:30:30 shachaf: it is! 17:30:48 the neverhood soundtrack is awesome 17:31:12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSY_d_Gz8Qc is a good song. 17:33:05 "I put 'em in my hat, and I eat 'em just like that; I put 'em in my ears and in my shoes... / I put 'em in my pants, and I do a little dance; it always seems to take away the blues..." 17:33:27 -- potatoes, tomatoes, gravy and peas "good song" potatoes, tomatoes, gravy and peas 17:33:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paZHrGxK7ig good son,g 17:34:00 Oops, it's late o'clock. 17:34:02 @time 17:34:05 Local time for shachaf is Wed Apr 4 10:33:30 2012 17:34:08 I need to be somewhere at 11:00. :-( 17:34:48 Being places sucks. 17:35:04 So does being awake at 11:00. 17:35:23 Man, existence. 17:35:25 So lame. 17:35:43 exiselevence 17:36:40 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke. 17:38:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:44 shachaf: hmm, did you accidentally zzo38 instead of yourself? 17:41:52 @quote olsner 17:41:52 olsner says: nah, SkyNet is just a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism, nothing fancy 17:41:54 @quote olsner 17:41:54 olsner says: pun indented 17:41:57 @quote olsner 17:41:57 olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine." 17:41:59 @quote olsner 17:41:59 olsner says: pun indented 17:42:00 @quote olsner 17:42:01 olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine." 17:42:01 @quote olsner 17:42:01 olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine." 17:42:02 @quote olsner 17:42:02 olsner says: pun indented 17:42:03 @quote olsner 17:42:03 olsner says: < kmc> i think 250 milliolegs is enough to kill an elephant < olsner> kmc: ... to kill an elephant - in the type system! 17:42:16 ur quotes suk 17:42:22 those are not all my quotes 17:42:22 a[art frp, tje omdemted one 17:42:25 that waone was good 17:42:28 @quote olsner 17:42:29 olsner says: a mind won't be enough, you need a comind to go with it 17:42:31 @quote olsner 17:42:31 olsner says: a mind won't be enough, you need a comind to go with it 17:42:32 @quote olsner 17:42:32 olsner says: hmm, so perl basically has all harmful features ever invented? 17:42:33 @quote olsner 17:42:34 olsner says: shapr: 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance 17:42:38 @quote olsner 17:42:39 olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine." 17:42:40 @quote olsner 17:42:40 olsner says: "... take it with a grain of salt. A big grain. Like the kind that they strap to the sides of mules so that they can get it out of the salt mine." 17:42:40 @quote olsner 17:42:41 olsner says: nah, SkyNet is just a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism, nothing fancy 17:42:41 @quote olsner 17:42:42 olsner says: most everything gives nicer everything than perl 17:42:42 @quote olsner 17:42:42 olsner says: pun indented 17:42:43 @quote olsner 17:42:43 olsner says: hmm, so perl basically has all harmful features ever invented? 17:42:44 @quote olsner 17:42:44 olsner says: pun indented 17:42:48 are u sure 17:42:50 maybe now you got all of them 17:47:10 oerjan: r u science 17:48:22 haf science, haf mad 17:49:06 I think I like the keyboard maintenance quote and the ones that hate perl 17:50:02 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance 5s very hard t6 d6 17:50:22 * oerjan swats olsner for hating perl -----### 17:50:41 the mule salt grain quote is probably from http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml 17:51:55 2eyb6ard 0a5ntenance and pun indented are funny 17:51:56 rest aren't 17:53:56 oh, that's what "lacuna" means? 18:00:22 oerjan: are you robot 18:00:50 do robots get fever 18:01:11 yes 18:01:20 probably, then 18:01:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:00 I cante *guarante* im fish. but 18:02:25 you're frequently in deep water 18:04:11 oerjan: what is it with sideways panama 18:04:34 elliott: continents collided. it got messy. 18:04:48 oerjan: did you hear about ais' new bf derivative 18:05:05 i may have already forgotten it 18:05:20 22:32:22: tape-based, with < > + - from BF, and a "jump to start if nonzero" for program control 18:05:27 [...] 18:05:28 22:34:56: ais523: I don't think there's any way to meaningfully skip code 18:05:28 22:35:07: elliott: exactly, that's the whole point 18:05:28 22:35:11: you have to undo it instead 18:05:28 22:35:12: all you can do is go back to the start, which basically means that at the first "branching" point, you're stuck 18:05:29 22:35:16: < > + - are all reversible 18:05:31 22:35:20: hmm... 18:05:33 22:35:39: OK, put this on the wiki, it's great 18:05:39 the question is obvious :) 18:05:53 ...i guess. 18:06:13 * elliott thinks it's sub-TC 18:06:40 wait, if _non_-zero? if it was if _zero_, i could probably get the collatz functions working :( 18:07:04 Everyone here is aware of 0x10^c. 18:07:15 That is an imperative statement. 18:07:26 Yes, we had a big argument about it a day ago. 18:07:45 oerjan: well that doesn't mirror BF's loop conditional 18:07:48 It has 64 kibbies of memory, right? 18:08:24 Oh, the spec is out. 18:08:31 Yep. 18:08:45 * 16 bit unsigned words 18:08:45 * 0x10000 words of ram 18:08:55 128 Kio, to be precise. 18:09:06 That's... 64 Kio, isn't it? 18:09:15 Sure, if you're unable to multiply. 18:09:34 Granted. 18:09:36 0x10000 * 16 bits = 0x100000 bits = 128 Kio. 18:10:02 I am excellent at noticing details. 18:12:52 oerjan: also, your favourite player is about to reach 40k. 18:13:01 * elliott SO commentator 18:13:06 wat 18:14:53 ah right 18:15:55 hmm... if you have a total language, and you want to add a Partial monad, what primitive(s) do you need to add beyond the monad primitives? 18:16:03 I think it's just mfix :: (a -> Partial a) -> Partial a 18:16:06 but I'm not sure 18:16:19 (and perhaps there's a simpler primitive, if that is sufficient) 18:16:50 -!- nortti has joined. 18:17:23 oh, is that enough to write e.g. fact? 18:17:29 I think it's not, because you need the fix around the /function/ 18:17:32 rather than the result 18:17:44 but Partial (Nat -> Nat) isn't quite right, it'd be Partial (Nat -> Partial Nat) or something 18:17:45 (Partial a -> Partial a) -> Partial a, perhaps? 18:17:59 whereas you really want Nat -> Partial Nat 18:18:01 oerjan: hm perhaps 18:18:21 oerjan: er I doubt that, that's just fix 18:18:24 i'm not sure how this works with laziness at all 18:18:31 oh, forget about laziness 18:18:37 it's a total language, so evaluation order is irrelevant 18:18:58 um but (a -> Partial a) -> Partial a only works with laziness, i think 18:19:23 oerjan: well you obviously can't define Partial within the language itself, I think 18:19:25 it'd be primitive, like IO 18:19:26 because (a -> a) -> a in haskell requires laziness 18:19:36 or hmm, yes you can 18:19:56 but I don't know how to implement mfix for that 18:20:01 this is confusing :( 18:20:16 elliott: i thought the codata Partial a = Now a | Later (Partial a) was sort of standard 18:21:01 right, that's in fact exactly what i just typed out 18:21:08 then i realised that i've defined that in haskell, and gave up on writing a MonadFix instance for it 18:21:16 so perhaps mfix /is/ wrong 18:22:18 hmm... 18:22:30 the thing is if you have (a -> Partial a), you have no way to apply it without getting an a, which you never get. oh hm there's that monad stuff... 18:22:51 fact 0 = Now 1; fact (n+1) = ((n+1) *) <$> fact n 18:22:59 wait, that's not right 18:23:02 fact 0 = Now 1; fact (n+1) = Later $ ((n+1) *) <$> fact n 18:23:06 yep, that'd pass the termination checker 18:23:18 the question is how to write it without the awkward explicit Now/Later 18:23:22 later :: Partial a -> Partial a isn't enough 18:23:27 if it was, you could just use id 18:23:33 or, hmm 18:23:41 now i've just confused myself... 18:25:47 mfix f = f <$> Later (mfix f) 18:26:47 that will just give Later $ Later $ ... 18:27:31 mfix f = Later $ f (mfix f); mfix :: (Partial a -> Partial a) -> Partial a 18:27:45 hm 18:27:53 is mfix really OK there? 18:27:57 oh, yes 18:28:03 wait, no, it's not 18:28:07 what if f peels off a Later constructor? 18:28:11 you'll get Later _|_ 18:28:25 erm rather, peels off more than one I guess 18:28:33 *sigh* 18:28:42 it would help if i had an intuition of how totality checkers work :) 18:28:46 esp. in presence of codata 18:28:59 me too 18:29:53 possibly the Partial monad adds essential strictness... 18:30:02 especially i've confused myself wrt. later :: Partial a -> Partial a; later = Later 18:30:09 is it *really* not ok to substitute Later -> later in all code? 18:30:19 surely the totality checker "remembers" what definitions do so that that kind of substitution becomes legal... 18:30:34 "surely" 18:30:57 surely it has to make simplifications to avoid blowing things up all the time 18:31:20 oerjan: well, yes, but not doing that destroys /referential transparency/ 18:31:28 in the most basic sense 18:32:04 probably typing rules always do that :P 18:32:36 oerjan: except the types are the same here... 18:32:59 (I don't buy that typing rules do that, that's just a misconception caused by the fact that the application of type lambdas is left implicit by most languages) 18:33:00 but the type Partial a -> Partial a is not sufficient information for the totality checker 18:33:08 (i.e. Later @Int :: Partial Int -> Partial Int) 18:33:13 oerjan: well duh 18:33:29 oerjan: that's why i'm saying, it surely must record more, or examine the definition, or such... 18:33:37 (maybe we need constructor peeling as part of the types...) 18:33:52 ooh i only need two more accepted answers today to break 300 18:34:25 when did you lose that 200 limit... 18:35:02 oerjan: answers being accepted (+15) and bounties are immune from the rep cap, it's just on upvotes 18:35:22 OTOH, upvotes are a lot easier to come buy than the others 18:35:41 the top few users make like 400/day 18:35:41 -!- augur has joined. 18:36:03 elliott: You're *buying* upvotes? 18:36:08 this guy is insane and figured out how to get up to over 1000/day by doing a bunch of bounties: http://stackoverflow.com/users/517815/mrgomez?tab=reputation 18:36:16 shachaf: Oops. 18:36:19 *bouy 18:36:34 "i buy upvotes" -- elliott "i buy upvotes" hird 18:36:57 @time 18:36:57 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 19:36:52 18:36:59 @time oerjan 18:37:00 Local time for oerjan is Wed Apr 4 20:36:27 2012 18:37:08 happy christmas eve 18:37:22 @time elliottcable 18:37:35 @time hi 18:38:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAAAAAAA THE PAIN (well, a bit)). 18:38:23 @time clog 18:38:24 Local time for clog is Wed Apr 4 11:38:12 2012 18:39:44 @time shachef 18:40:21 shachaf: Remember http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png? 18:41:16 elliott: Yes. 18:41:28 shachaf: I don't. 18:41:38 elliott++ # artist 18:43:50 shachaf++ # chef 18:45:43 oerjan missed it! 18:46:06 elliott: Is clog named after the Neverhood character? 18:46:28 That bot's nick should definitely be klogg. 18:46:40 www.osnews.com/comments/25762 oh god why!? 18:47:45 * $DEITY 18:50:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:50:43 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:51:15 shachaf: NO :-| 18:52:13 I don't dot he "breathin" thing okaye . 18:52:23 elliott: Did you ever see the BAD ENDING in the Neverhood? 18:52:49 I don't want to. 18:52:59 If I did I've probably forgotten it by now. 18:59:47 shachaf: Have you ever DESTROYED a KITTEN? 19:00:44 I mean, I haven't. 19:01:02 elliott: DESTROYED its sense of DIGNITY by FUZZING it? 19:05:38 yes 19:14:26 @yow 19:14:27 Couldn't find fortune file 19:15:12 `fortune 19:15:16 ​/i \ //, \ ///i \ ,/ ).'i \ | )-i \ | )i \ ' )i \ / |- \ _.-./-. /z_ \ `-. >._\ _ );i. \ / `-'/`k-'`u)-'` \ / 19:15:35 ah 19:15:42 `addquote `fortune ​/i \ //, \ ///i \ ,/ ).'i \ | )-i \ | )i \ ' )i \ / |- \ _.-./-. /z_ \ `-. >._\ _ );i. \ / `-'/`k-'`u)-'` \ / 19:15:45 836) `fortune ​/i \ //, \ ///i \ ,/ ).'i \ | )-i \ | )i \ ' )i \ / |- \ _.-./-. /z_ \ `-. >._\ _ );i. \ / `-'/`k-'`u)-'` \ / 19:15:48 @yaw 19:15:48 Couldn't find fortune file 19:15:51 @ying 19:15:51 pong 19:15:52 @yang 19:15:52 Maybe you meant: ping yarr 19:15:54 @yarr 19:15:55 I'll keel haul ya fer that! 19:17:36 does anyone have any idea what the fuck HackEgo's output is supposed to mean? 19:19:16 `fortune 19:19:19 millihelen, n.: \.The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. 19:20:42 `fortune 19:20:45 Amar-te trama. \ -- palndromo 19:28:45 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti). 19:37:25 Someone unupvoted me. :( 19:39:09 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:54:26 @time 19:54:27 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 20:54:21 19:54:48 Yesss, 4 hours left to get 2 accepts 19:55:46 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:56:43 -!- azaq23 has joined. 19:57:59 shachaf: Astrophysics, right? 20:00:12 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 20:08:47 -!- variable has joined. 20:11:43 shachaf: Right? 20:17:06 -!- nortti has joined. 20:18:38 who is selling that advertised infinite tape? 20:22:28 Infinite tape? It will begin at the factory and end at my place and they’ll keep printing more whenever i pull it? 20:25:16 nortti: RocketJSquirrel, I think. 20:27:39 wasn't it oerjan's tape? 20:27:59 hmm, doesn't mean RocketJSquirrel can't sell it I guess 20:33:48 Do you believe in *dogs* and *arms*? And *candelabra*? 20:34:47 no, but candelabras believe in me - for I am their god 20:39:58 * Sgeo is suddenly reminded of an FRC round 20:40:39 olsner: "Candelabrum" or "candelabron", silly. 20:40:42 "Candelabra" is plural. 20:42:13 candelabrons then 20:44:03 -!- derdon has joined. 20:46:40 olsner: Er, I meant "candelabra". 20:46:49 That was the singular. Thing. Help. 20:48:17 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 20:50:21 candelabrums is the only alternative left I haven't tried? 20:50:35 candlebrooms 20:50:37 no its 20:50:38 candcelabra 20:50:39 theatste 20:50:41 the plurale 20:50:42 *cnadelrb 20:50:44 *bbbbbbbbb 20:51:19 elliott: Astrophysics? 20:52:01 http://kaizer.se/wiki/log/post/C++_constexpr_foldr/ 20:52:05 shachaf: Yeah, man!! 20:52:10 @tyme 20:52:10 Maybe you meant: time type 20:52:12 @time 20:52:12 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 21:52:07 20:52:19 @thyme 20:52:19 Maybe you meant: time type 20:52:36 @hi lambdabot 20:52:37 No match for "lambdabot". 20:52:40 @hi 20:53:41 @hi 20:53:43 @die 20:53:44 unexpected end of input: expecting number 20:55:20 @die gnu autotools 20:55:20 unexpected "g": expecting number 20:59:24 "My question is when I print out the numbers till a precision of 36 bits, why are the numbers, 0 , 0.5 and 1.0 represented exactly, wherars the other numbers seem to have some garbage numbers placed at the end?" 20:59:32 Stack Overflow should ban qusetions about floating point. 21:03:29 you should answer something about 32-bit architecture and how 4 undefined bits get included ... he was just lucky the undefined bits were 0 21:04:02 Then I'd lose rep!!! 21:04:13 use your sock puppets then 21:05:08 ;__; 21:12:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:12:41 elliott, I see esolangs is mainstream. 21:12:41 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:14:09 Also you have now spread the knowledge that there is such a thing as intjforum.com to me as well. 21:14:17 I don't like you. 21:14:28 :} 21:15:06 Phantom_Hoover: obama is interviewing seolangs tomorrow. hes askin the tough questions. askin, do we really need another bf deriavtive 21:15:18 can i answer 21:15:45 no 21:15:49 hes not inviewing ph 21:15:52 hes inviewing esolangs 21:16:37 i am esolangs 21:22:51 oh 21:22:56 you are many bf derivative then 21:23:00 rip Phantom_Hoover 21:23:03 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 21:23:05 died of autobrainbrickening 21:50:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:53:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:53:43 American ads are so awful. 21:57:23 @messages 21:57:23 You don't have any new messages. 21:59:30 hi ais523 21:59:32 hi Phantom_Hoover 21:59:34 hi Phantom_Hoover 21:59:35 hi ais523 21:59:42 hi * 22:00:05 & 22:01:18 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:03:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:04:06 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:04:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:06:24 hi Phantom_Hoover 22:07:08 autobrickbrain hoover 22:07:22 no olsner 22:07:27 i am now enlighten 22:07:33 i am the brick 22:07:36 and i am the brain 22:07:46 who's the auto? 22:08:05 Deewiant 22:08:10 maybe that should be in german though... dann wer ist das Auto? 22:09:12 wir fahren fahren fahren etc. 22:10:09 `addquote no olsner i am now enlighten i am the brick and i am the brain 22:10:12 837) no olsner i am now enlighten i am the brick and i am the brain 22:10:17 Phantom_Hoover: does this mean that if I create a BF derivative, you'll hit yourself? 22:11:09 no 22:11:10 -!- augur has joined. 22:11:11 i will 22:11:15 Phantom_Hoover: he already did tho 22:11:18 brickbrain it from reality itself 22:11:20 yesterday 22:11:22 but 22:11:23 its 22:11:23 good 22:11:34 22:32:22: tape-based, with < > + - from BF, and a "jump to start if nonzero" for program control 22:11:34 [...] 22:11:34 22:34:56: ais523: I don't think there's any way to meaningfully skip code 22:11:34 22:35:07: elliott: exactly, that's the whole point 22:11:34 22:35:11: you have to undo it instead 22:11:35 22:35:12: all you can do is go back to the start, which basically means that at the first "branching" point, you're stuck 22:11:38 22:35:16: < > + - are all reversible 22:11:40 22:35:20: hmm... 22:11:42 22:35:39: OK, put this on the wiki, it's great 22:11:50 elliott: I started putting it on the wiki 22:11:53 but forgot to submit 22:11:58 but then you took an aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh 22:12:10 elliott: is that a Skyrim reference reference? 22:12:54 yes 22:13:27 "You've earned the "Strunk & White" badge. See your profile." 22:13:28 GOSHE 22:14:30 an achievement? on what website? (I'm guessing a website from context) 22:14:37 oh, and I'm guessing stackoverflow 22:14:57 Strunk/White 22:14:58 Aww yeah 22:16:00 ais523: yes (the badges are worthless tho who cares about those) 22:16:07 ps strunk + white sux 22:20:06 pps more like strunk n SHITE 22:21:09 elliott: surely you're not /that/ bad at trolling? 22:21:41 ais523: bad enough to make u ask that TROLLD 22:21:50 * elliott stands by original sux comment though 22:22:28 OK, for some reason Henry's even *slower*. 22:22:41 I can barely run Multiwinia or Defcon any more. 22:22:50 I guess Vax sucked out the fast? 22:23:17 hoovers hoovering hoovers is an abomination against god 22:24:14 Well how do you think hoovers are cleaned. 22:25:57 DIVINE INTERVENTION 22:26:44 @time 22:26:45 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 23:26:39 22:26:47 @time Phantom_Hoover 22:26:47 Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Wed Apr 4 22:23:16 22:26:51 What time is it in America, Hoover? 22:27:49 Half six. 22:28:11 America... is weird. 22:28:48 half six? so it's three then? 22:42:14 Ha, I just corrected an SO moderator and they deleted their comment *and* mine. 22:42:26 THE PUBLIC WILL NEVER KNOW 22:46:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:48:04 hi oerjan 22:48:09 low oerjan 22:48:52 oerjan missed it! <-- missed what? 22:49:10 it 22:49:19 oh 22:49:38 (trondheim) 22:51:58 trondheim is all around us. well some of us. 22:52:22 * oerjan assumes elliott isn't trying to make sense 22:53:28 40k 22:59:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:59:47 @time 22:59:47 Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 23:59:41 22:59:54 ONE ACCEPT IN ONE HOUR 22:59:56 can i do it oerjan 23:01:20 yes. but _will_ you? 23:01:39 do or do not 23:01:43 there is no will 23:02:34 indeed. 23:05:16 i wonder if i can pass daniel soon 23:05:20 oerjan: ps by trondheim 40k i meant hammar 23:05:30 it am like the biggest sportses win and u miss it 23:06:06 sheesh you know i don't care about sport 23:06:18 ... 23:06:23 oerjan: STACK OVERFLOW YOU BLITHERING MORON 23:06:25 >_< 23:06:34 the thing i told you about literally right before you left and you waved a trondheim flag :P 23:06:38 i sense much anger in you. 23:06:49 at least I didn't call you a blithering mormon. 23:07:05 (that's reserved for mitt romney) 23:07:37 hm, trondheim, 40k, hammar, warhammer 40k, coincidence? WE ARE ALL DOOMED! 23:08:04 elliott@solidity:~$ sudo wc -l /var/log/nginx/access.log.1 23:08:04 41163 /var/log/nginx/access.log.1 23:08:04 elliott@solidity:~$ sudo wc -l /var/log/nginx/access.log 23:08:04 78164 /var/log/nginx/access.log 23:08:05 this is your server. 23:08:08 this is your server on proggit. 23:08:10 any questions? 23:08:23 (and there's still some 7 hours left before the log rolls over!) 23:08:36 50M/var/log/nginx 23:08:36 whew 23:08:43 yes, are those over the same time period? 23:09:27 or is the first everything _before_ today 23:10:02 or wait hm 23:10:20 it's just a different day i guess 23:11:00 oerjan: .1 is yesterday 23:11:06 it rolls over at 06:00 UTC 23:11:22 sounds like a strangely temporary numbering scheme 23:11:35 oerjan: well it's log rotation... every day all the archived logs get their number increased 23:11:43 ok 23:11:46 and access.log becomes access.log.1 and access.log becomes the new one 23:11:57 (and access.log.2 onwards are kept gzipped) 23:11:59 currently we're up to access.log.47.gz 23:12:28 so we can deduce the rotation is probably more than 32 bit. 23:12:52 Why not just.. 23:12:56 * oerjan sidles away carefully 23:12:56 rm -r access.log.*.gz 23:13:00 Well. 23:13:01 Just rm 23:13:03 No need for a -r 23:13:05 Madoka-Kaname: ...Why would I do that? 23:13:12 I dunno! 23:13:13 "Why not just... rm -r /srv/esolangs.org?" 23:13:21 Maybe 'cuz I don't remove data without a reason...? 23:23:45 oerjan: hi. welcome to 23:24:35 thanks. what is 23:25:01 oerjan: it's 23:25:18 oh, i was hoping it was more like 23:25:39 oerjan: it can be. but beware of the 23:26:28 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:26:57 oerjan: it is invariably 23:27:12 sorry, i'm busy being eaten by a 23:27:56 oerjan: what a coincidence! I'm a 23:29:18 in that case, could you please 23:30:13 oerjan: only on 23:31:26 but that's 23:31:39 -!- NSQX has joined. 23:33:48 * Sgeo breathes 23:34:10 Sgeo: is that a new record? 23:34:24 assuming you weren't breathing before 23:34:42 Breathing is so 2011. 23:38:16 [crickets] 23:39:07 We all died. Try again later. 23:39:38 2011, a great year for breatharianism 23:40:56 -!- david_werecat has joined. 23:41:19 hi 23:42:30 hi david_werecat 23:43:03 -!- davidwerecat has joined. 23:43:11 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Client Quit). 23:43:26 Hello 23:43:27 {{Unblock}} 23:43:40 NSQX: hi 23:44:02 NSQX: do you understand what it is you've been doing wrong? 23:44:26 If an administrator just unblocks me I will continue editing [[UniCode]] 23:44:32 in what way? 23:44:41 if you're just adding a bunch of stub commands, that is not a useful thing to do 23:44:42 a persuasive argument 23:45:05 as everyone knows, [[UniCode]] desperately needs edits 23:45:32 yeah that han unification needs some undoing 23:46:02 I'll just take one day to add all 65536 characters to the table. 23:46:12 can you type that fast? 23:46:24 NSQX: Your bot has looked up the properties of the non-existent page [[UniCode/0]] in the web server logs. Can you explain why it's doing that, since we've told you nobody is allowed to run bots that do editing without permission? 23:46:40 NSQX: what would be the point unless you have meanings for all of them? 23:46:41 And multiple people have already explained that it's not practical or desired to add all Unicode characters to a single page. 23:46:44 large autogenerated pages are pointless 23:47:27 For someone to be unblocked early, the admins have to be convinced that the user understands the reason they're blocked, and has resolved to not repeat such behaviour again. Unfortunately, I don't see either of that. 23:49:48 NSQX: also, there's more than 65536 unicode characters, as multiple people have also told you 23:50:14 so the resulting page would be even bigger and even more of a problem for the server 23:50:31 elliott, do I have permission to make a bot to edit pages automatically? It'll add rainbows and sparkles to random pages. 23:50:51 Madoka-Kaname: that's probably better done at the CSS level 23:50:58 True 23:52:10 NSQX: anyway, if you continue filling up UniCode with autogenerated information rather than /useful/ information after the block expires, you'll just end up being blocked again 23:53:04 Am I allowed to manually autogenerate? 23:53:12 Python console isn't autogeneration, right? 23:53:20 It's, uh, an extension of my brain. 23:53:32 Just like a keyboard is an extension of my normal speech capabilities. 23:53:33 Then, we first have to think of what the UniCode instructions will do, but that is 65536 different instructions to think of. 23:53:40 and there are fewer than 65536 characters in the first 2^16 bits of Unicode, too 23:53:50 er first 2^16 codepoints >_< 23:53:52 I highly doubt you can think of 65536 distinct instructions for a language. 23:53:55 And there's no point to doing so. 23:54:07 if we work together 23:54:09 we can do anything 23:54:15 well it's certainly a possible collaborative project, but that isn't the issue here 23:54:21 if we work together we can understand basic properties of unicode? 23:54:22 Except figure out 65536 distinct instructions 23:54:30 NSQX: it's perfectly OK for [[UniCode]] to get filled out incrementally, as commands are given meaning 23:54:32 proposal: q enters banana scheme mode 23:54:38 but it's not OK to just fill it out with a contentless subset of unicode 23:54:46 NSQX: right; the best thing to do is to add characters to the article only when people have come up with meanings for them 23:54:50 especially with a bot 23:55:55 Well, the autogenerated information is just to get a start on the table. 23:56:03 uuuu... 23:56:05 NSQX, how about this 23:56:12 You can autogenerate a section of the table when you actually intend to fill it out. 23:56:14 NSQX: yes, but it'd result in server problems 23:56:23 browsers don't handle such gigantic pages well 23:56:33 it would use up a lot of bandwidth sending it down to clients on the server, which indirectly costs me money 23:57:10 you can use templates to make the creation of the table easier; if you want to use a bot to fill items out *as they're given meaning*, then you could seek approval for that; but just adding an empty table wholesale will result in lots of problems 23:57:14 nqsx why don't you run your own wiki and fill it with bullshit 23:57:17 Plus, wikis don't deal well with huge pages 23:57:49 I'd like to point out that's ~0.5MB of data 23:57:58 Madoka-Kaname: more than that, it's more than one character per table row 23:58:05 it'd be several megabytes 23:58:26 That's about the 1/3 a random ebook I have lying around. 23:58:37 elliott, I'm assuming minimum stuff on a row 2012-04-05: 00:00:44 NSQX: do you at least understand that you must not make edits with a bot unless you have admin permission to, or you will get blocked again? 00:00:48 and this applies to *everybody*, not just you 00:03:08 i hate it when people make a big herping point about phrases like "ATM machine" being 'redundant' 00:03:28 like how many of us actually think "automated teller machine" when we see ATM? 00:04:10 kmc: "ATM machine" is really annoying, though 00:04:24 ATM is just a word and sometimes the phrase "ATM machine" sounds more natural in context 00:04:25 in fact, I get annoyed by following an acronym with a word that starts with the same letter as the last letter of the acronym 00:04:28 even if it's a different word 00:04:41 if you purge english of all redundancies everywhere, you'll end up with horrible stilted prose that pleases grammarians only 00:05:16 it's not a redundancy, though, it's an inaccuracy 00:05:20 (i am writing an article and want to say "PNG graphics" but can't because mouthbreathing dorks will whine about it) 00:05:22 an ATM machine would be a machine that made or serviced ATMs 00:05:29 an ATM is a type of machine 00:05:34 kmc: "PNG-format graphics" 00:05:46 ais523: that only applies if ATM = automated teller machine 00:05:51 ais523, so i have to add an extra word to a sentence that was already perfectly good 00:05:51 elliott: well, yes 00:05:52 it doesn't = 00:05:52 fuck that 00:06:09 since it's not in common usage to treat it as its expanded form, it's not 00:09:56 "PNG-format graphics" would be correct, I think 00:09:59 -!- NSQX has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:10:02 PNG alone wouldn't be 00:10:46 where do people get this idea of "correct" which is divorced from the very purpose of language 00:11:22 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:11:33 pretty neat graphics 00:11:50 kmc: "correct" as in its meaning is clear to other people 00:11:52 anyway if someone complains i will tell them PNG really stands for "PNG's Not GIF" 00:12:03 ais523, you think the phrase "PNG graphics" is less clear than "PNG-format graphics"? 00:12:05 yes 00:12:07 anyone who doesn't know what "PNG graphics" means is being disingenuous 00:12:12 ... 00:12:21 "ATM machine" actually has a different meaning from "ATM", as I explained earlier 00:12:23 but i don't know why kmc would listen to ais523 about this :) 00:12:30 no it doesn't 00:12:42 that's a common sort of construction 00:12:58 a lamprey eel is a type of eel 00:13:02 it's not like an eel made out of tiny eels 00:13:16 an atm machine is a type of machine 00:13:35 kmc: a red eel is also a type of eel 00:13:39 a red eel eel isn't, it's just meaningless 00:13:42 I don't know what kind of lamprey eels you've seen. 00:13:50 AutomatedTellerMachineMachineFactoryFactoryServer 00:13:54 But the ones I have were definitely made out of tiny eels. 00:15:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:15:28 let's make up arbitrary rules about language so we can smugly "correct" other people and feel smart 00:15:55 thou shalt not split infinitives 00:16:10 splitting an infinitive indicates that you weren't beaten enough in school 00:16:22 and therefore that your parents were too poor to afford a school with high quality beatings 00:16:31 and therefore that you are of Low Class 00:17:11 hah! i shall endeavor to boldly and rebelliously split my infinites whenever ponder what preposition to end my sentences with 00:17:17 oerjan++ 00:18:14 that wasn't meant to have that many _accidental_ misspellings. 00:18:32 * oerjan kicks poor muphry across the room 00:18:33 ais523: which of these is more helpful: "You've got RAS." "You've got RAS syndrome." -- the latter, because acronyms are inherently ambiguous, and nearby context works to clarify and make reading easier and smoother 00:18:50 there is no more natural way to supply that context; it would be an arbitrary, ugly construction solely for avoiding a silly prescriptivist rule :) 00:18:51 elliott: the latter, "RAS syndrome" is the correct name 00:19:02 but it's Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome! 00:19:02 C O R R E C T 00:19:03 just like brainfuck starts with a lower case letter 00:19:06 that would be a syndrome where you get a syndrome 00:19:28 the syndrome syndrome syndrome 00:19:29 or Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym abbreviates to INTERCAL 00:19:33 actually B.R.A.I.N.F.U.C.K. is an acronym 00:19:40 you are Incorrect™ 00:20:02 I wish I owned the trademark on "you are incorrect". 00:20:24 ais523: anyway, what about PIN number? 00:20:34 "PIN number" is also a helpful disambiguator 00:20:36 I think PIN number is correct due to strength of usage 00:20:37 for the exact same reasons 00:20:48 ok, so your argument is just that "ATM machine" is uncommon? 00:20:50 and ATM machine isn't because I've heard anyone seriously say ATM machine 00:20:52 yes 00:20:57 *I've never heard 00:21:01 except as an example of RAS syndrome 00:21:18 http://www.atmmachine.com/ http://atmequipment.com/ ("Leading ATM Machine Retailer") 00:21:28 ATMMMR 00:21:30 "An automatic teller machine or ATM allows a bank customer to conduct their banking transactions from almost every other ATM machine in the world." http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinventions/a/atm.htm 00:21:32 erm, oops 00:21:47 http://www.atmtellermachine.com/ "ATM Machine [...]" 00:22:00 here it is in a news headline: 00:22:04 http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-03/vadodara/31280444_1_sbi-atm-bharuch-india-s-atm "SBI ATM machine stolen from Bharuch" 00:22:10 elliott: the two *machine.com links don't count because they're blatant SEO attempts 00:22:19 (from "The Times of India (TOI) is an Indian English-language daily newspaper. According to Audit Bureau of Circulations, it has the largest circulation among all English-language newspapers in the world, across all formats (broadsheet, tabloid, compact, Berliner and online).") 00:22:29 elliott: india doesn't count. they have the issac newton college, q.e.d. 00:22:32 I'll accept the others 00:22:50 elliott: would you say "SEO optimization" is a correct synonym of SEO, btw? if not, why not? 00:23:05 what's "correct" and why should anyone care 00:23:12 correct is irrelevant 00:23:15 it's perfectly understandable 00:23:34 and I almost certainly wouldn't notice it if reading an article containing it 00:23:37 > 40 + 40 x 0 + 1 00:23:38 81 00:23:45 Calling "ATM machine" a machine that makes ATMs seems perfectly acceptable to me in jest 00:23:50 But not in seriousness 00:23:57 ais523: http://boingboing.net/2011/11/02/snake-in-atm-machine.html (yeah, boing boing is scraping the barrel, but still, it's evidence of colloquial usage) 00:24:00 elliott: I'd interpret it as definitely different from SEO, it just makes no sense 00:24:10 or, well, optimizing your SEO 00:24:21 what about using single words rather than acronyms? 00:24:25 Are you people still talking about automatics ATM teller machines? 00:24:26 or phrases? 00:24:33 can I say "single word word" rather than "single word"? 00:24:35 it only works with acronyms, because they "hide" the word inside 00:24:44 "word word" is redundant because word = word 00:24:50 "ATM machine" is not because ATM =/= * machine 00:24:54 How relevant is Stephen Fry's Language thing? 00:24:54 elliott: "don't do not"? 00:25:12 "Gold ATM machine at Westfield: meet the first customer" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8610819/Gold-ATM-machine-at-Westfield-meet-the-first-customer.html 00:25:21 "Mad Snake Inside ATM Machine" http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikep13/mad-snake-in-atm-machine-3t1w 00:25:32 "Lego NXT ATM Machine with Change Maker" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z-ym0k89Q 00:25:36 shachaf, i seem to have trolled ais523 by accident 00:25:41 to boldly troll 00:25:44 by the way, tab = 8 00:25:48 ais523: if PIN number is OK because of usage, then ATM machine is unquestionably too 00:26:12 kmc: You should title your autobiography "The Accidental Troll" 00:26:13 nonsense, a tab is an unspecified amount of horizontal space indicating a logical nesting level 00:26:45 kmc: don't 00:26:47 stop 00:26:49 /part the channel immediately 00:26:52 -!- augur has joined. 00:26:53 come back in five minutes 00:26:55 elliott: it's OK, I was self-parodying 00:26:55 trust me 00:27:01 ais523: you can't be trusted to self-parody! 00:27:24 oh, someone in another channel brought up "KFC chicken" 00:27:25 When I press the Tab key on my keyboard, my editor inserts U+00038 00:27:35 which I think is definitely correct for referring to the chicken they sell 00:27:37 ais523: that's fine even if you're stupid and anal 00:27:39 KFC serves things that aren't chicken too! 00:27:39 and cannot refer to the company 00:27:40 yeah 00:27:47 whereas KFC always refers to the company, not to their products 00:27:49 since Kentucky Fried Chicken is a company, and they sell chicken, which is Kentucky Fried Chicken chicken 00:27:51 well company names are proper nouns 00:27:52 ais523: not true 00:27:55 KFCc 00:27:59 "I went to get some KFC" 00:28:04 if someone called me "Keegan person" i would probably be... confused 00:28:05 that means "I went to get some unspecified products from KFC" 00:28:05 people actually say that? ouch 00:28:10 sure 00:28:26 but that's not because it ends with chicken, that's just colloquial usage 00:28:32 well, OK 00:28:34 kmc: can I call you that? 00:28:40 "a McDonalds"? "a Burger King"? 00:28:52 ais523: "some" works better than "a", I think 00:28:55 kmc: is your name actually Keegan? if not, I see why you'd be confused 00:28:58 and it might work better for KFC in general because it's a short acronym 00:29:44 protip: if you go to KFC, do not order then Unspecified Product 00:29:51 the* 00:30:14 * shachaf has never gone to "KFC". 00:30:27 Finally, shachaf discovers the optimally condescending statement. 00:30:41 strangely, neither have I, which is surprising given that it's the physically nearest major fast food chain to my house 00:30:47 perhaps I should some day, probably Friday 00:30:54 kmc: hey that's just fud, the unspecified product is guaranteed to be from genuine vertebrates 00:30:57 OK, "some day, probably Friday" is hilarious 00:31:10 "Perhaps I'll see her again some day ... Sunday, perhaps" 00:31:20 elliott: oh, I didn't mean this Friday, I meant an unspecified Friday 00:31:30 that's even funnier 00:31:35 elliott: That sentence doesn't even contain a mention of how I"m morally superior to you because I don't eat the flesh of previous-conscious entities! 00:31:46 shachaf: But that one does! 00:31:50 * oerjan thinks he ate at a KFC once 00:31:51 True. 00:32:04 shachaf: Did you know KFC sell products that aren't made from dead animal? 00:32:10 Some of them are *alive*. 00:32:17 oerjan: the fact that you're not sure probably means that it wasn't a particularly memorable experience 00:32:19 or bought something, or something like that 00:32:46 ais523: _or_ that it's 16 years ago, if so 00:33:02 oerjan: maybe you ate at KFC the day I was born. 00:33:10 Can I get a "synchronicity"??? 00:33:21 elliott: sadly it would have been in the spring. 00:33:32 Well, summer is basically spring. 00:33:39 hm... 00:33:39 Plus with relativity... 00:34:18 oerjan: elliott is suggesting that you are a relative of his. 00:34:30 Heyyy, I was tryin'a be subtle. 00:35:04 O KAY 00:35:52 monqy: Are you a relative of elliott's? 00:35:59 According to Darwin, monqy is my ancestor. 00:36:05 Or maybe my cousin. 00:36:07 hi monqy 00:36:11 monqy is everybody's cousin. 00:36:29 hi shachaf 00:36:59 134605th cousin, 40902 times removed 00:37:34 don't remove monqy :( 00:37:43 That's an unlikely number of removals. 00:37:52 Also a somewhat-unlikely degree. 00:38:18 I don't think humans get more than about 4000th, and probably much less. 00:38:21 RocketJSquirrel: for a human and a monkey? 00:38:25 oerjan: RocketJSquirrel is calling you unlikely. 00:38:26 Oh, fair point. 00:38:37 I RETRACT MY STATEMENTS. 00:38:45 For I am a flying squirrel, and hence an even more distant cousin. 00:38:52 okay 00:39:07 if evolution is true then why does monqy still exist HMMMMMM??? 00:39:14 checkmate, atheists 00:39:32 I always wanted to prove a point using a type-checker. 00:39:37 And then say "type-checkmate" 00:39:38 If evolution is real, then how are there people stupid enough to believe in Intelligent Design? 00:39:39 CHECKMATE 00:40:00 kmc: monqy is actually a squirrel. 00:40:05 * oerjan hits kmc with the holy saucepan of smyrna ===\__/ 00:40:12 hello 00:40:14 i am back 00:40:34 because historically, assigning agency to natural processes is more adaptive than the alternative of running around screaming in ignorant terror of the world 00:40:35 RocketJSquirrel: darn good argument 00:40:42 Apparently the alcohol laws in Pennsylvania are such that beer cannot be sold in quantities of less than 24 cans. 00:41:10 in PA all booze is sold by the state 00:41:19 oerjan: Can you kick Phantom_Hoover for being away for the entire duration of that tense situation? 00:41:31 oh but maybe not for beer 00:41:31 elliott: yes, i can. 00:42:08 oerjan: Kick me instead! 00:42:20 If I spam this channel you'd kick me, right? 00:42:31 oerjan: Do so, please. 00:42:34 Can we just say I spammed this channel? 00:42:41 i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. 00:42:54 No, it's okay. I told you to do it, so you can trust me. 00:43:05 oerjan: Kick me! 00:43:11 oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC? 00:43:30 `addquote i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC? 00:43:33 838) i recall memories of using my op powers for jokes. ...bad memories. oerjan: you can remember /that/ but not KFC? 00:43:34 KFC: the most memorable thing. 00:43:47 ais523: yes, surprisingly my memory for a week ago is better than 16 years ago 00:44:08 I love how NSQX doesn't seem to realise that if you need to autogenerate the spec of a language you can just put the generating script up and call it the spec. 00:44:21 Phantom_Hoover: He was trying to generate a stub table so he could fill it in. 00:44:25 oerjan: Also, can you kick shachaf so he shuts up about getting kicked? 00:44:39 yes, i can. 00:45:18 Can you stop taking questions beginning with "can you" literally? 00:45:53 elliott: if you put a "please" on there, he could no longer misinterpret you like that 00:46:12 oerjan: Also, can you kick shachaf so he shuts up about getting kicked, please? 00:46:16 ais523: Thx 00:46:19 "Perhaps I'll see her again some day ... Sunday, perhaps" 00:46:21 ais523: I think he might kick you now though. 00:46:25 Can you say Lyttle Lytton? 00:46:31 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I can. 00:46:40 elliott: people stopped kicking me after a while, my reaction to being kicked is scary 00:46:52 Phantom_Hoover: OK you're right, I accidentally came up with a spectacular entry. 00:47:02 ais523: Oh man. Tell us or we'll organise a demonstration. 00:47:04 -!- MDude has joined. 00:47:15 elliott: just disappear for a while and make them think that they've mortally offended me 00:47:23 ais523: hey now you're making me _curious_ 00:47:25 it doesn't work if you tell people what it is, though 00:47:30 ais523: wow, peace for that long? 00:47:37 we won't hear a peep about ATM machines or tab widths 00:47:40 elliott: isn't that what /ignore is for? 00:47:40 oerjan: i demand science. 00:47:55 not _that_ curious. 00:48:01 ais523: /ignore is useless for people who don't monologue because you see people's reactions 00:48:04 :p 00:48:18 (which means it is excellently effective against certain monologuers.) 00:48:22 solution ignore the whole channel 00:48:33 monqy: there's even a command for that, /part 00:48:39 -!- elliott has left ("really? awesome"). 00:48:40 although it causes the channel to ignore you too 00:49:03 -!- elliott has joined. 00:49:14 oerjan: actually if you just do /msg chanserv clear, that'll preemptively answer all possible requests for kicking 00:49:25 and also punish the terminal idlers. 00:49:41 fancy. 00:49:52 elliott: it requires a couple more params than that 00:50:05 it does? 00:50:06 I did it once 00:50:10 well, more than once 00:50:22 the channel, at least 00:50:29 /cs clear #esoteric users 00:50:35 phew, I remembered to escape the / correctly 00:50:41 ais523: you accidentally added an extra / 00:50:45 >_< 00:51:04 00:48:40: although it causes the channel to ignore you too 00:51:12 ais523: not in channels without the fascist +n mode 00:51:22 * ais523 wonders how many channels don't have +n 00:51:37 at least one 00:51:53 we got -c, surely we can get -n here too? then the channel would have *no modes* 00:52:32 elliott: doesn't it have +b? or does it have an empty banlist? 00:52:49 wow, the banlist's actually longer than I rememeber 00:52:50 well, an empty /mode output 00:53:04 you can probably wipe that bot list 00:53:05 erm 00:53:06 ban list 00:53:24 oh wait, alvur was in herej ust days ago 00:53:27 *here just 00:53:29 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 00:53:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:53:30 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 00:53:33 * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 1 11:21:38 *!*alvur@95.57.97.* oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no 00:53:34 * #esoteric Banlist: Fri Mar 30 21:17:26 *!*alvur@178.89.139.* oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no 00:53:35 oerjan: they came back? 00:53:41 yes 00:53:47 whos' that 00:53:47 who is alvur? 00:53:50 and what were they doing? 00:53:51 ais523: a troll 00:54:00 they came in here pretending to be christian, calling us magicians and heretics 00:54:13 do you think they were aware that the channel wasn't about that? 00:54:17 then they used a certain racial slur beginning with the letter "n" and it took like half an hour before anyone bothered to kick him 00:54:18 (they could be and still do it, if they were a troll) 00:54:41 ais523: well, they later revealed they're actually an atheist in /msg to nortti, who copied that here. 00:54:51 but I don't know, it could go either way. 00:54:57 that doesn't actually answer the question, but it's still interesting 00:55:04 and why would they PM nortti about that? 00:55:13 or were they trolling #christian too or something? 00:55:16 because norrti was attempting to engage them in debate in /msg 00:55:17 atheist sex maniacs 00:55:27 don't ask me why, I have no adequate answer 00:55:35 is there a #christian in addition to #jesus 00:55:37 counter-trolling is the most likely answer, I think 00:55:37 and suspect there is none 00:55:42 monqy: I don't know, I just made it up 00:55:52 ais523: no, he argued with him in #esoteric first and pasted the full /msg log afterwards 00:56:05 it was fairly standard atheist argumentation, so it'd have to be a really subtle countertroll :P 00:56:06 apparently there is a #christian 00:56:12 monqy: are you in #christian now 00:56:16 no 00:56:19 I asked chanserv 00:56:37 Sgeo: do you know anything about #christian 00:57:13 Um 00:57:21 that's 00:57:24 the worst possible relpy you could give 00:57:26 just for future reference 00:57:31 *reply 00:57:34 I joined it just now, luke-jr is there 00:57:39 now you can never leave 00:57:45 There's almost no one there for what it's wroth 00:58:07 that luke-jr popped up indirectly in another place on the internet recently, now i'm devoting a small portion of my mind to disliking them 00:59:20 who is luke-jr? 00:59:22 elliott, a place bitcoin related, by any chance? 00:59:35 ais523, extremist sedevacantist Catholic in #jesus 00:59:52 Sgeo: no, though i've seen him pop up there too. 00:59:53 iirc 00:59:58 I'm not entirely sure what sedevacantist means; and I'm not sure I want to find out either 01:00:03 isn't luke-jr one of the "saner" ones in #jesus 01:00:07 talk about overton window 01:00:21 elliott, um, there are worse, but I don't tally him in the "sane" people 01:00:34 "Sedevacantism (derived from the Latin words meaning "empty chair" [1]) is the position, held by a minority of Traditionalist Catholics,[2][3] that the present occupant of the papal see is not truly Pope and that, for lack of a valid Pope, the see has been vacant since the death of either Pope Pius XII in 1958 or Pope John XXIII in 1963. Some sedevacantists claim that the vacancy goes back further." 01:00:38 wow 01:00:53 brainproxy ^peter^ and ... one other, I think 01:01:03 elliott: I'm trying to work out why that would matter atm 01:01:14 which probably implies I don't know enough about Christianity 01:01:17 ais523: does theology normally matter? 01:01:27 popes can declare all sorts of stuff and you're meant to like them 01:01:29 does it have something to do with the pope being infallible 01:01:33 the pope's infallible right 01:01:37 I don't know my stuff 01:01:45 monqy, only on certain specific issues and when he says so, iirc 01:01:53 (Erm, that's an intersection and) 01:02:02 the infallibility is older than that though? 01:02:10 hmm, if the pope is infallible, does that mean you can determine whether someone's the pope by whether they make a mistake? 01:02:22 new popes aren't infallible because they aren't popes 01:02:29 ais523: no, they explicitly declare when they're being infallible 01:02:41 "Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when in his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible wi 01:02:41 ll be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state that the pope cannot sin in his own personal life nor that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies." 01:02:58 hmm, does this mean I can prove I'm not the pope by declaring myself infallible and then lying? 01:03:27 * ais523 wonders why he would ever need to prove himself not the pope 01:03:42 it has to be on a matter of dogma 01:03:45 so "lying" is pretty hard to define 01:04:03 I could contradict myself? 01:04:05 try contradicting another infallible dogma 01:04:30 ais523: have you even read the Bible? 01:04:47 elliott: many parts of it, yes 01:04:53 Sgeo: "This user favors absolute monarchy." "This user wants a philosopher king." "This user believes the separation of church and state is heresy." 01:04:56 I don't think I've read every word in the whole thing, though 01:04:58 Sgeo: agree w/ yr not tallying 01:05:58 philosopher king? itidus21? 01:06:00 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:06:11 luke-jr 01:15:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:16:49 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 01:35:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:37:02 -!- kmc has joined. 01:43:16 -!- augur has joined. 01:44:10 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 01:44:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:13:10 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:15:23 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:15:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:30:18 @time 02:30:18 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 03:30:12 02:30:19 oh luke-jr.. he ops in a channel i frequent 02:38:40 monqy: theres several meanings of philosopher.. i fall more into the eccentric bum sense of the word 02:56:24 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:02:34 @time elliott 03:02:35 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 04:02:28 03:03:02 elliott: 😪 03:03:04 :-( 03:03:11 My IRC client is breaking my non-BMP Unicode. 03:03:27 That was U+1F62A 03:04:11 shachaf: What? 03:04:16 shachaf: Unicode has 65536 characters. 03:04:17 goto sleep; 03:04:19 you mean Unicode Big Endian? 03:04:21 Oh, right. 03:04:21 You're thinking of -- yes. 03:04:37 Most operating systems don't support that. 03:05:13 kmc: Did you know it's called Unicode Big Endian because it's bigger than standard Unicode? 03:05:22 but which end is bigger?!?!? 03:05:40 itidus21 are you like diogenes 03:05:50 kmc: No, "endian" is the technical term for the space in which the characters are addressed. 03:05:57 diogenes was an eccentric bum 03:06:01 he was perhaps the original troll of all history 03:06:07 kmc: diogenes was somewhere in the intersection of the venn diagram 03:06:10 There's also Unicode Little Endian, which is only 12 bits, for embedded devices. 03:06:31 i don't actually do the thinking and analyzing side of philosophy 03:06:36 they don't need embedded devices in china right 03:06:48 it's all egg rolls and conical paper hats 03:07:10 -!- elly has left. 03:07:23 wow.. elly left 03:07:30 YES 03:07:31 what does this mean? 03:07:36 means ur stoned 03:07:48 she didn't even quit 03:08:07 kmc: My understanding is that the Chinese just rip off people's esoteric RISC CPU designs all day.[1] 03:08:08 ==References== 03:08:13 1. http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Oerjan#Who.27s_the_anal-retentive_one.3F 03:08:23 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. 03:08:30 Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details. 03:08:34 Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization. 03:08:43 i wish i could find that picture of a bunch of japanese businessmen on the subway and one sad lookin white dude in a conical hat 03:09:11 i think it used to be at the top of ED's page for "Weeaboo" 03:10:15 "It has been decided that the contents of this wiki should be public domain." 03:10:23 too bad there's no such thing 03:10:49 or rather, you can decide it *should* be public domain, but the only way to make it happen is to die and wait 100 years 03:11:38 kmc: see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Copyrights 03:11:47 we use CC0 these days, previously Creative Commons' previous public domain dedication 03:11:59 it has a rather comprehensive license to use for jurisdictions where you can't release works into the public domain 03:12:14 very good 03:12:29 To quote elliott: "(BTW, I always wondered how the Asian and Chinese people do any work with computers, given that the ASCII character set doesn't even include any characters in their alphabet...)" 03:12:30 kmc: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WPL5zaKzjqc/TU-E_8WY6hI/AAAAAAAAADw/lAmCit-uHEM/s1600/100.JPG 03:12:34 i've been wondering if i should license my code as CC0, or some other very permissive license 03:12:36 many apologies for the delay 03:12:40 shachaf: You removed the quote marks! 03:12:41 The Asian *and* Chinese. 03:12:41 Wait, no, you didn't. 03:12:48 You just used a colon as your quote mark. 03:12:50 Devious. Devious. 03:13:07 (full disclosure, the license was less waterproof before i took over, technically... but it was still there) 03:13:10 My treachery knows no bounds. 03:13:18 (since CC's old public domain thing didn't include a license, we had our own pretty lousy one) 03:13:33 kmc: yeah i've been tempted to just license all my (hypothetical) code as CC0 03:13:35 To quote elliott: "Wait... I thought Unicode was still an experimental prototype? Since when does it work in the real world??" 03:13:50 kmc: i tend to just go with BSD or MIT because of peer pressure :'( 03:13:52 it doesn't actually work in the real world 03:13:55 we all have ASCII privilege 03:14:44 העולם האמיתי 03:14:58 shachaf: What is that nonsense? Speak words! 03:15:04 Stupid foreigners. 03:15:16 מילים 03:16:02 ללמוד אנגלית ו / או לחזור לארצך ו / או ללמד אותי איך הקלד את הסמלים האלה 03:16:43 רך החמור ג'לטין 03:17:03 shachaf: What did I just say? 03:17:28 elliott: That last bit seems to say "soft the donkey gelatin" 03:17:47 Maybe it means "the softness of the donkey" or something? 03:18:01 shachaf: No, I typed in "soft donkey gelatin". 03:18:05 I'm glad it translated correctly. 03:18:08 DUDE 03:18:13 LERN2ARTICLE 03:18:23 What was the line before that? 03:19:29 "to learn English and / or to return to your country and / or to teach me type these symbols" 03:19:37 No, wait. 03:19:41 "to learn English and / or to return to your country and / or to teach me how type these symbols" 03:19:50 Good enough! 03:19:52 Translating grammatical errors is hard. :-( 03:20:45 shachaf: כיצד לפתור את הבעיה לפיה דייג לא יכול לגרש את אשתו עד המעטפה תכנות מפסיק לחשוב על בעיה עם הקודים, שבה ולכן סוג חדש של שכמיות עם כירופרקטור כנה? 03:22:07 shachaf: ???? 03:22:37 elliott: I'm just going to paste that into Google Translate and give you the response. 03:22:42 "How to solve the problem that the fisherman can not divorce his wife to the programming envelope stops to think about a problem with the codes, so that a new type of ponchos with honest chiropractor?" 03:22:50 shachaf: But I already did that! 03:22:53 I want the authentic native translation. 03:23:26 Ask kmc. 03:23:58 kmc knows Hebrew? 03:24:19 kmc: oh yeah.. i didnt explain my link above.. i found the weeaboo pic http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WPL5zaKzjqc/TU-E_8WY6hI/AAAAAAAAADw/lAmCit-uHEM/s1600/100.JPG 03:25:12 elliott: Hmm, it's an interesting task to come up with edge cases that when translated en->he->en naïvely yield a completely different output from the original input. 03:25:16 For example, "to a thing". 03:25:37 "give me to a thing" 03:26:05 shachaf: הנתיחה שלאחר המוות המצטיין המאיה אקסיומה אמידה מואצת שפך מסוגל אמפתי חול 03:26:19 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:26:45 kmc: הנתיחה שלאחר המוות המצטיין המאיה אקסיומה אמידה מואצת שפך מסוגל אמפתי חול 03:26:46 -!- Frooxius has joined. 03:27:34 I get the feeling shachaf is ignoring me. 03:27:52 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:28:18 -!- MDude has joined. 03:28:25 The searches I used to find it were, webpage search: encyclopedia dramatica weeaboo, weeaboo.. then image searches: weeaboo, weeaboo subway ,weeaboo sitting ,weeaboo contrast, weeaboo seated 03:28:27 kmc: Do you think shachef forgot that wonderful portrait already? :( 03:28:31 יש לי הרגשה שחף מתעלם אליוט. 03:28:53 monqy: LERN2GRAMMER 03:28:59 monqy: the gull ignores me yes 03:29:05 i don't know hebrew 03:29:10 shachaf: How do you pronounce "shachaf"? 03:29:13 -!- NihilistDandy has quit. 03:29:17 Is it SHHH-a-TCH-af? 03:29:21 elliott: I pronounce it שחף. 03:29:22 That's how I pronounce it. 03:29:28 That's not helpful. That's literally what you always say. 03:29:32 itidus21, that is not the weeaboo picture 03:29:37 The "ch" isn't a "ch" as in "chair". 03:29:39 it's rather a photo of an anime style robot 03:29:40 kmc: How do you pronounce shachaf? 03:29:43 It's more like "ch" as in "Bach". 03:29:46 elliott, incorrectly 03:29:49 kmc: How don't you pronounce shachaf? 03:29:52 shachaf: No! Fuck! I hate that ch. 03:29:52 correctly 03:30:01 shachaf: The closest thing to my surname in Lojban has one of those in it. 03:30:05 I can't fucking pronounce it. My own name! 03:30:12 :( 03:30:17 elliott: No, the Lojban one is velar; mine is uvular. 03:30:22 kmc: its a guy with a raiden hat in a train sitting across from a businessman.. wires must have crossed somewhere 03:30:31 That means nothing to me! Is it easier to pronounce? 03:30:44 I tried translated "I have a feeling that Shachaf ignores Elliott." but I got "I have a feeling that Eliot ignores gull." 03:30:44 yes that is the picture i would like to see 03:30:56 eliot do not ignore gull 03:31:02 elliott: No, harder (for me). 03:31:08 elliott: Probably easier for a Russian speaker. 03:31:10 maybe you can upload it to imgur? 03:31:12 sorry kmc http://chanarchive.org/content/67_cgl/1993599/1248574696623.jpg 03:31:14 this one 03:31:22 yesss 03:31:23 thank you itidus21 03:31:25 that other one was a cut and paste mistake 03:31:27 >.< 03:31:31 kmc: Did you see my portrait of shachef? http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag 03:31:46 that's a good portrait 03:31:59 monqy: It's hard to explain exactly how it got mistranslated. 03:32:03 shachaf: But is the Shh-a part right? 03:32:06 And the aff part? 03:32:22 monqy: The main part is that you're missing a couple of prepositions. 03:32:48 elliott: The "a" is a simple short sound, as in "cup" or something. 03:32:53 The emphasis is on the first syllable. 03:32:56 i saw it elliott 03:32:58 The "sh" is a "sh", I think. 03:33:06 shuchuf 03:33:12 gull 03:33:15 I'm not sure whether it's a ш or a щ. 03:33:20 I think it's a ш. 03:33:29 Because that looks like ש. 03:33:49 shachaf, where did your ancestors live? 03:34:24 kmc: Quite a lot of places! 03:34:33 Like Finland. A bunch of my ancestors lived in Finland. 03:35:38 shachaf: Let's settle this once and for all: 03:35:58 shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDlrdg/shachef.wav 03:36:24 shachaf shachaf shachaf 03:36:42 hi monqy 03:36:49 hi shachaf 03:37:24 Oh, hey, I can fix that weird artifacting. 03:37:25 woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo 03:37:32 woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo 03:37:33 woo-ooo woo-ooooo oo-wah-oooo oo-wah-oooo-oo 03:37:33 shachaf shachaf 03:37:58 ponders whether the verb skinning on an application is a relic of quake-1 terminology 03:38:00 elliott: Is that audio file just silence? 03:38:33 Oh, no, my volume buttons are just broken. 03:39:11 shachaf: Can you play ``FLAC files''? 03:39:22 elliott: You have a very mechanical-sounding voice. 03:39:33 I sure can*! 03:39:34 my name is linus torvalds and i pronounce linux as "linux" 03:39:43 shachaf: What's the *? 03:39:46 I thought it said "hello, this is ..." 03:39:52 shrug 03:40:00 shachaf rug 03:40:01 shrug 03:41:12 shachaf: http://ompldr.org/vZDlreQ/shachef.flac Now with 100% less artifacts and 0% less mechanism 03:41:25 wow.. 100% less 03:41:41 Artefacts, no? 03:41:48 elliott: ...Is that the same file encoded as FLAC? 03:41:48 artofacts 03:42:26 shachaf: No! 03:42:27 No artofacts. 03:44:00 shachaf: OK, I'm pulling your leg. Here's what my *real* voice sounds like: http://ompldr.org/vZDlreg/shachefraw.flac 03:45:10 * shachaf >>= away for a while. 03:45:18 :( 03:45:24 I think shachaf doesn't like my real voice. 03:46:06 Phantom_Hoover: monqy: You don't judge me, right? 03:47:00 what's jdugeing 03:48:32 monqy: Jdgugeign 03:48:42 it now all makes sense 03:48:46 djaygen 03:49:32 @time 03:49:32 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 04:49:26 03:49:35 Noooo! 03:50:28 elliott, no, you just sound like a normal English pansy. 03:50:37 http://ompldr.org/vZDlsMg bye reddit 03:50:55 Phantom_Hoover: Is that about shachefraw.flac or shachef.flac? 03:50:57 :p 03:51:24 No, it's about all the other voice samples you've posted. 03:52:03 Phantom_Hoover: Uh, there was one more! 03:52:05 Also, I meant "which one". 03:52:12 Oh, you weren't being sarcastic. 03:52:23 shachef.flac is the sound of an English warrior, okay. 03:52:36 Toiletries division. 04:03:13 @time 04:03:13 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 05:03:07 04:09:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:13:55 -!- Urist_McTiktalik has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:16:55 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:17:24 -!- tikfreenode has joined. 04:17:51 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:17:51 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 04:19:47 hi lifthrasiir 04:19:52 hello 04:20:26 temporary connection failure. that's it. 04:25:15 lambdabot!!!!! 04:34:52 -!- lambdabot has joined. 04:54:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:01:36 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:11:36 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:12:01 -!- Frooxius has joined. 05:23:58 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 05:24:36 elliott: Are you reading this? 05:25:04 elliott: Sometimes I get sick of the "teach by typing examples into lambdabot" method of #haskell pedagogy. 05:25:39 Especially in the cases when you could give one simple explanation but instead give a dozen lines of small lambdabot examples which explain less and which the asker couldn't have come up with anyway. 05:27:23 -!- Frooxius__ has joined. 05:27:47 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:27:49 -!- Frooxius__ has changed nick to Frooxius. 05:30:59 thats the haskell culture. :-D 05:31:03 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:32:23 sometimes it's appropriate though 05:32:50 Sometimes it is. 05:32:58 I do it myself. 05:33:03 yeah it's not really a language one studies through the normal channels.. such as a teach yourself book 05:33:04 People go overboard, though. 05:33:23 "teach yourself C in 20 minutes" books are total shit 05:33:35 as for books in general, a fair number of people do start with LYAH or RWH 05:33:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:33:47 kmc: I'm pretty sure that if I read one of those books right now, I would know C reasonably well by the time I was done. 05:33:55 itidus21, do you know any haskell? have you tried learning it? 05:34:00 istr that everything you say about haskell is wrong 05:35:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:35:42 i need to be allowed some leeway to get my ignorant reflex comments out of my system 05:36:06 ok hm 05:37:53 what this room has taught me is that i never learned about computation from anywhere 05:39:14 I was exposed to assembly, basic, pascal, c, c++, java, html, actionscript .. but still not really learn anything about computation 05:40:11 it's like theres this whole tier of books which teaches people how to use variables and arrange text printing statements in different languages 05:41:15 maybe i just wasn't very resourceful growing up 05:42:11 -!- rvchangue has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:42:25 Nah, almost all books on programming are just really pointlessly simple. 05:43:38 sadder is that computer science degrees at least here seem to only concern themselves with that basic level 05:43:41 it's almost like programming isn't just a matter of knowing n languages! 05:44:44 i'm sure it helps that computers are faster 05:44:51 i'd like to see haskell running on an 8086 05:45:14 itidus21: The lambda calculus existed long before the 8086 did. 05:45:39 So did Lisp. 05:48:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:48:15 i don't think lisp performance on 60's mainframes was particularly good compared to the alternatives 05:49:16 I wonder if 8086 ever did anything important. 05:49:29 Took over the world. 05:50:21 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 05:50:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:51:10 my questions are mostly making sense of "why" i have seen so many languages (and btw im a horrible coder in all of them) and why i am clueless about computation 05:51:17 it's almost like programming isn't just a matter of knowing n languages! 05:51:35 have you considered following a reputable school's CS curriculum? 05:51:39 MIT has a ton of materials online 05:51:58 well.. i am also examining it historically 05:52:04 6.004 is a lot of fun 05:52:17 so is 6.828 05:52:18 why when growing up i learned this ridiculous style of programming 05:52:37 and never really quite questioned any of it -- that was 1 mistake 05:52:55 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 05:52:56 it was that childhood naivety that these things were just magically packaged up and did cool stuff 05:53:16 they are 05:53:24 ;_; 05:53:26 i mean depending on what you mean by "magically" 05:54:24 i mean, i didn't care who made them.. i revered the mysterious programming god as a kind of celebrity 05:55:03 like there was vortex out of which programming languages were emerging 05:55:52 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:56:07 -!- Frooxius has joined. 05:56:13 uh.. also.. i didn't think many programming languages existed.. 05:56:29 i thought that it was such a monumental effort to make each one that only a handful were made 05:56:51 or that everyone all just used this handful of languages 05:57:14 im not sure if i actually thought that 05:59:23 something to take from this is that even if you feel dumb, compared to me you're really quite smart about this stuff 05:59:45 ^for whoever is reading 06:00:03 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:01:23 nothing about qbasic 1.0 ever purported programming to be difficult. i didn't know what i was getting into. although it was obvious the apps i was using were not made with basic 06:03:14 in closing: one of my breakthroughs was.. after hardcoding a call to a function like circle(20,20),5,2 .. i realized i could substitute variables for the position and i was struck by the power of this subtlelty 06:06:15 i don't think i can really express succinctly the fact that i expected to find here people at the same intelligence as me about programming.. theres no other way to put it how much of a shock it is 06:06:56 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 06:07:14 i expected to find guys like NSQX and languages like lolcode 06:08:34 phew 06:08:38 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving"). 06:09:32 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:09:54 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 06:10:31 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:10:35 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius. 06:12:02 -!- rvchangue has joined. 06:12:53 -!- kmc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:16:18 -!- kmc has joined. 06:17:40 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:19:50 -!- cheater has joined. 06:26:20 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:26:47 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:32:01 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:36:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 06:37:44 -!- cheater has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:38:20 -!- cheater has joined. 06:43:31 -!- tikfreenode has quit (Changing host). 06:43:31 -!- tikfreenode has joined. 06:43:42 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik. 06:58:28 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:59:02 -!- cheater has joined. 07:06:14 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 07:06:16 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:11:26 "The spec stipulates that any letter not among these should be ignored. 07:11:26 " 07:11:34 What about non-letters not specified there 07:11:52 (Paintfuck) 07:12:37 Well, the original announcement says the correct thing 07:54:02 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:54:18 -!- cheater_ has joined. 08:08:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:09:49 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:48:49 It's more like "ch" as in "Bach". <-- /me practices 08:49:07 that's pretty cool, actually 08:53:41 wait, uvular? the german is also velar :( 08:54:17 * oerjan tries further back 08:54:35 sadly, that doesn't make it even cooler 08:55:24 oerjan: I'm not sure about "back". 08:55:30 Uvular is done with the uvula. 08:55:38 I don't actually know how velar works. 08:56:02 well, i tried pronouncing it like a "h", but with more friction 08:56:08 *an 08:57:29 Er... Where does the friction come from? 09:00:01 hm wait the german r is uvular, so just unvoice that 09:00:36 Right, an unvoiced uvular r would work, more or less. 09:01:13 oh, "According to Kohler,[7] the German ach-Laut is further differentiated into two allophones, [x] and [χ]:" 09:01:22 the latter being the uvular one 09:01:46 and Bach supposedly has that 09:02:17 i don't think my german pronunciation is that precise :) 09:03:54 some norwegian dialects have uvular r, but not mine 09:05:48 ok h is glottal, so that's too far back 09:05:57 As elliott would say: 09:06:06 What does it feel like having the WRONG NORWEGIAN DIALECT? 09:06:11 WRONG PERSON. Who is WRONG. 09:06:48 oerjan: Do you know what the uvular one sounds like? 09:07:04 well yes 09:07:38 although when i try to fake a bergen dialect, it really sounds fake 09:07:59 though possibly not because of the r 09:13:59 * oerjan realizes his german probably sounds just as fake, he just cannot hear it that well 09:42:59 It sounds like your Bach is worse than your byte. 10:04:16 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:08:02 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:01:14 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:16:15 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:19:28 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:35:42 -!- shachaf has joined. 11:35:54 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:36:10 -!- derdon has joined. 11:36:46 Hello! 11:36:55 yo 11:39:27 -!- Ngevd has joined. 11:39:27 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:40:48 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb. 11:41:54 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:42:57 What do people think of this David Catt person? 11:44:07 pretty prolific 11:45:04 he'll wear out eventually. even zzo38 did :P 11:45:47 well, i guess he's putting up things he's already made, anyway 11:49:02 -!- david_werecat has joined. 11:49:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:49:46 OK, weird America thing: medical adverts. 11:49:48 BUT ALL IN ALL HE'S A FINE AND UPSTANDING ESOLANGER 11:50:56 -!- Ngevd has joined. 11:51:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:51:38 BUT ALL IN ALL HE'S A FINE AND UPSTANDING ESOLANGER 11:52:06 I really need to find somewhere with a better wifi connection 11:52:25 AFTER LUNCH 11:52:50 MAÑANA 11:53:01 Also, hello david_werecat, I like your VB.Net quine 11:53:07 -!- Ngevd has quit (Client Quit). 11:53:12 -!- david_werecat has changed nick to boink666. 11:54:02 -!- boink666 has changed nick to david_werecat. 11:54:34 Thanks. 11:55:28 Oh, also, American bacon is weird. 12:12:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:26:37 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 12:37:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:59:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:59:42 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:13:19 david_werecat: nice music 13:13:32 do you like the faceless? 13:14:00 Yes, although I perfer their first album to their new one. 13:14:50 i think both have their moments, but i suppose i listen to the first one more 13:15:32 what did you use for these? 13:15:54 I used Finale Songwriter. 13:17:15 Sometime, I'm going to post some of my actual guitar work; although the drums will still be done in Finale. 13:17:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: The universe is just a big torture chamber.). 13:17:49 i seem to be too lazy to ever buy something i can actually record my guitar playing with 13:18:41 Ah. I use a Tascam, it seems to work well. 13:18:57 So, do you have a soundcloud? 13:19:23 i have never ever heard of that 13:19:35 oh 13:19:46 but so yeah no 13:21:17 i have now. 13:21:37 what is it 13:23:05 Soundcloud is basically a way to share music. 13:23:46 You can find a lot of people posting demos on there. 13:25:17 oh the page with your music was indeed your soundcloud userpage. 13:26:24 Sometime this summer, I'll probably have a full demo EP done to post there. 13:30:46 coo. 13:31:11 can you play the stuff on your page? 13:33:13 Yes. Although, I wouldn't suggest playing "SuperEarRapePlus" for obvious reasons. Also, pause at the end of "Technical Fragment", otherwise the ear rape starts directly after. 13:33:42 did you understand that i meant whether you can play them on the guitar? 13:34:15 Oh, sorry. I can mostly play them. 13:34:53 I just can't do sweeps that well, but everything else is okay. 13:35:36 i can sweep just fine except for that fact that people usually define sweeping as being able to sweep at 20 notes per second. 13:36:40 i can do two octaves of the minor scale up and down in a bit over a second, so something like 10 notes per second 13:37:32 Cool. I'm almost up to that speed, although I don't practice enough. 13:37:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:38:22 i have a 7 string in GC#GC#GC#G, buying an 8 string, gonna use fourths between strings for that 13:38:35 well actually i have it already, but not at home yet 13:40:22 Very nice. I don't have anything that fancy, just a normal 6 string in drop B. What type of guitar is it? 13:40:59 ibanez, but i don't know much more... :P 13:41:10 i mostly just care about the number of strings. 13:41:52 13:42:00 ion 13:42:02 URL? “ david_werecat: nice music” 13:42:16 see eso page 13:46:33 Almost ready to release my new language "PP_TIBSA" 13:51:32 so what's this tascam thing's exact name? i torrented something but it doesn't seem to be right. really it would be enough if i had a way to use my webcam's mic, windows sound recorder isn't that great. 13:53:15 the sound gets distorted after a second or so, some kind of autocorrection. 13:53:41 Tascam is a device that allows you to plug an amp directly into the computer. I use Audacity for all my editing and recording. 13:53:56 right 13:54:10 makes more sense, but since there was a program called that, i figured you might mean that. 13:55:50 It actually comes with a professional recording software included in the package. I can't remember the name of that software, though. 13:56:51 it's just that i know every mic can record decently enough for my purposes, since the first second or so sounds right, and then for some reason everything becomes filtered. 13:59:58 Maybe try checking in the Windows audio mixer. The microphone probably has an option to turn that off. 14:01:28 -!- boily has joined. 14:03:57 can you listen to wma? 14:04:32 here's a sample http://www.vjn.fi/lul/wtf.wma the song is called bashing the guitar at random to get a sample 14:04:47 the first chord sounds like a guitar. 14:04:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:05:52 and i can't find an option like that anywhere 14:06:37 at least under the name make an electric guitar sound like it's being played under water 14:07:26 It should be under "Noise Canceling" 14:07:32 hmm 14:08:36 I think on my computer, I found it in the Realtek control panel. 14:08:53 oh? where in it? 14:09:10 i can't find anything of use there 14:09:31 I'm looking into it right now... 14:11:39 thanks 14:12:52 that's really all i'd need, since i usually only record stuff so i can better hear my mistakes. 14:14:35 I'm still looking, it seems that Realtek doesn't handle the webcam mic... 14:15:29 It might actually be under the webcam settings. 14:16:50 i checked, with the obvious results. 14:18:49 I know it's somewhere, I just can't seem to find it right now... 14:21:11 There is an option under the Realtek control panel -> Microphone that says "Noise Canelation", but it's grayed out on my computer 14:22:15 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 14:23:41 hmph 14:26:32 The best advice that I have right now it to right click on the speaker icon, select input devices, double click on the mic, then go to enhancments and turn off any options like DC Offset Cancelation, Noise Cancelation and Acoustic Echo Supression. Also, try setting the mic level to 100% and the volume boost to +30db 14:28:12 Also, try setting the quality to 2 channel, 16bit, 192000hz (studio quality) 14:28:21 That's in the advanced tab 14:29:50 on the phone 14:30:26 Oh, in that case, I have no idea. 14:30:32 no i am. 14:30:43 Oh, okay. 14:39:07 people do such stuff on the phone these days? 14:52:03 ookay finally 14:52:06 still here+ 14:52:07 _ 14:52:09 ? 14:52:12 hard to find, that. 14:52:42 i have something called Realtek HD audio manager 14:53:13 is that the right place, because i can't really find anything for input devices there :/ 14:53:58 Tennis http://youtu.be/QBqBCMpn4ZE 14:54:07 The speaker icon to right-click is the one for the Windows volume manager, not the Realtek one. 14:56:03 oh 14:56:20 ion: Never seen something like that before! XD 14:56:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:58:16 sound -> recording -> mic -> advanced has something called default format, but i can only go up to dvd quality :/ 15:00:22 It doesn't make that much of a difference. DVD quality is still good quality, generally it takes an audiophile to tell if something was recorded at 48000hz or 192000hz. 15:00:30 right. 15:00:43 yeah i just want it to sound roughly like a guitar 15:01:34 Was there an option under the enhancments tab to turn effects on and off? 15:02:15 -!- elliott has joined. 15:02:20 That's the main cause of the problem. 15:03:21 hmm 15:04:03 i can't find one anywhere, at least 15:04:30 [...] generally it takes an audiophile to tell if something was recorded at 48000hz or 192000hz. <-- dibs on the "did that pass a double blind test" comment 15:05:14 (i think that's sort of obligatory in this channel) 15:05:56 audiophiles can't distinguish 48khz and 192khz, sorry. 15:06:23 http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html if you don't believe me. 15:06:47 oerjan: ("ABX test" is the appropriate lingo here) 15:06:58 okay 15:08:05 oerjan: (play A, play B, then play randomly from A and B several times, identifying which one it is each time) (obviously the picking is automated) 15:09:39 True. I do agree that it's kind of pointless to have settings like that. Although, with 192khz I can make a dog whistle that's too "powerful" for any normal speaker to handle it 15:10:10 so basically it takes an audiophile dog. got it. 15:10:15 more than pointless, 192khz is actually slightly worse as far as fidelity goes :) 15:10:30 (on many systems) 15:12:23 Recording and processing at a higher spatial and bit resolution might give you more room for various kinds of processing even if you downsample it to something like CD quality in the end. 15:13:42 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:14:08 ion: Yes, the article covers that. 15:15:15 Maybe, although most microphones don't handle that kind of resolution so often times it only makes sense to record at maximum what your input can handle. 15:15:42 192khz is generally too high for most equipment 15:20:09 Speaking of pointless, I just released PP_TIBSA. 15:23:22 14:53:58: Tennis http://youtu.be/QBqBCMpn4ZE 15:23:34 ion: You have no idea how much it costs us to import dinosaurs each year for Wimbledown. 15:25:10 I can imagine. 15:25:32 *Wimbledon. 15:25:38 Wimbledown is the Australian spinoff. 15:26:36 -!- cheater_ has joined. 15:26:40 Ah, the best part about that article I linked is seeing everyone's inane responses to it. 15:26:48 yeah you cannot import dinosaurs to australia 15:26:49 "Going from 16 to 20 bit is like going from vinyl to CD. Remember that every bit more represents twice the information, so going from 16 to 18 you'll get 4 times more depth." 15:26:59 I thought it was the version for people suffering from Down syndrome. 15:27:16 elliott: haha 15:27:58 "What I can tell you guys is that there is a huge difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192. 16/44.1 just doesn't sound right. When you mix a project (usually I work with 24/96 kHz) you have a sonic depth of the elements, let's say a voice vs. reverberation; finally you get a mix down which is your "Master" but as soon as you convert it to 16/44.1 your work goes to the trash, you lose much of the program you had. The voice will get 'into your face' a 15:27:58 nd you will lose a lot of the reverb you had, you don't get things in the space they were. [...] On regards of the sampling frequency 192 kHz do sound softer, it's much more natural but unfortunately it does take more resources. 96kHz has a good trade off." 15:28:32 Mostly it's just "" over and over again, though. 15:28:39 -!- augur has joined. 15:29:23 It would be so easy to do double-blind tests of your own for stuff like that. 15:29:50 I suppose they don’t want to do a test that potentially invalidates such a strong belief. 15:29:55 You can't *test* *feeling*. 15:30:29 I think it's just arrogance. 15:33:27 -!- itidus21 has joined. 15:40:34 -!- amina has joined. 15:41:17 -!- amina has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:41:38 elliott: It's also "I like big numbers" over and over again. 15:41:56 Yes, that too. 15:41:58 People use WiMAX? 15:42:14 hmm 15:42:25 elliott: I believe one of the "4G" services here is secretly WiMAX. 15:42:37 Let's computing! 15:43:00 i hear it's very important that the cables of your speakers don't intersect themselves, because the inductive currents are clearly audible 15:43:39 "Did you know... that carrying the body parts of your dismembered mother to a refrigerator is hardly Soft & Cuddly?" -- Wikipedia's main page as of some hours ago, displaying astounding editorial judgement 15:46:11 ok, someone tell me what i was trying to think of but hit a dead end.. if you have 2 points with n dimensions, but you represent those points by taking < n dimensions and draw a line between them 15:47:15 like if you had point 5,3,2 and point 8,1,4 .. and you instead interpreted them as point 5,3 and point 8,4 15:47:23 it's not very interesting is it... 15:47:44 elliott: Lasted six hours, apparently. 15:47:58 Yep! 15:48:16 You have to wonder who wrote that thinking "yes, I want thousands of people to see this". 15:49:01 someone quite evil i would say 15:49:07 The funny thing is that in the context of the link, it's not even really spam, it's just not phrased in a neutral fashion. 15:49:49 do you guys know a compiler from some intermediate language to lambda calculus? 15:49:54 someone who has been reading too much psychology texts and wanted to mess with as many heads as possible 15:49:57 itidus21: what about that? 15:50:03 RocketJSquirrel: I wonder if it was originally scheduled for April 1st or something 15:50:03 some intermediate language with loops, ifs and basic arithmetic 15:50:23 mroman_: You'll have a better time finding such a language if you don't require imperative features such as loops 15:50:23 that's called a linear projection, basically what linear algebra studies 15:50:31 elliott: The relevant entry and link is still there, I think somebody just decided they wanted to rephrase it in their own style *shrugs* 15:50:42 oklopol: well usually when i have a thought like that, i'm sniffing onto an actual theory which is very old and worn out 15:50:54 yeah it's called linear algebra 15:51:02 hmm.. 15:51:31 if you want to learn math, that's one of the first things you should study. 15:51:33 RocketJSquirrel: Ohyeah, the article's obviously listed, since DYK lists pretty much anything that is (a) new and (b) not crap, I'm just talking about the blurb :P 15:51:56 elliott: I don't need loops actually 15:52:41 mroman_: Well, there's Lazy K's Lazier language, which compiles down to SKI calculus... you just have to replace S, K and I with their definitions. 15:52:43 foo n := if (n > 5): foo (n-1) else: n 15:52:50 Also see http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/ 15:52:53 ^- something like that would work to 15:52:55 *too 15:53:08 Which compiles a little s-expy lang to lc 15:53:45 oklopol: the first thought was.. in a grid each cell tends to have 4 or 8 neighbours.. and i was thinking.. what if it only had 3 neighbours.. would it represent 2.5 dimensions in a way 15:54:10 well 15:54:15 itidus21: hexagonal grids have that 15:54:25 and i thought, in a line, each cell tends to have 2 neighbours.. but if it had only 1 neighbour perhaps it is some kind of .5 15:54:29 err have what? 15:54:45 3 neighbors for each vertex 15:55:03 right, also the connected graph of 5 elements has that 15:55:05 the latter comment is like a singly linked list 15:55:21 erm 15:55:23 4 15:55:38 but.. is there a correlation between the number of spatial dimensions and the number of neighbours of a cell 15:56:01 itidus21: there isn't, directly. 15:56:08 my poor brain 15:56:31 itidus21: see oerjan's example, arguably it's still 2d 15:56:38 you need at least to look at how it grows for iterated cases 15:56:46 yeah 15:57:11 and i'm not sure whether that works 15:57:22 -!- MoALTz has joined. 15:57:38 if you take a finite amount of generators for the group Z^2, probably you get 2 as dimension if you take a limit of sizes of balls, and adjust nicely. 15:58:06 hmm 15:58:38 :-P ... 15:58:43 The set of all typed terms (simple type theory) is not turing complete? 15:58:48 you can make them grow constant times faster by adding generators, but i suppose you get that the size is theta n^2. 15:58:50 well if you assume the distance is the same as shortest path between two points, then you can calculate a hausdorff-like dimension, perhaps 15:59:08 for a discrete group? 15:59:12 i mean 15:59:13 countable 15:59:22 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1173214/how-to-stop-working what a programming question 15:59:23 if we're talking about the dimensions of a grid 15:59:24 As every typed term has a beta normal form 15:59:27 i'm not thinking of groups, i'm thinking of infinite graphs 15:59:35 righ 15:59:36 t 15:59:41 just consider Z^n as the intuitive example 15:59:43 elliott: It was removed already. :-( 15:59:54 and streuth knows what i am thinking 15:59:54 well what i said might be a way to define dimension? 16:00:05 Which means, that every algorithm which can be represented in lambda calcalus and we can assign a type to that term terminates? 16:00:14 the number of points at distance <= k grows like Theta(k^n) 16:00:16 d such that for any set of generators, you have that balls are of size theta n^d 16:00:19 elliott: What was the question? 16:00:27 in addition to the title 16:00:30 ion: I just deleted it :D 16:00:36 I didn't realise mine was the final vote. 16:00:41 im trying to thin about porn now.. to cool down from my mathy confusion 16:00:55 oerjan: well right, that's exactly what i'm saying 16:01:12 * elliott tries to upload it somewhere. 16:01:21 and i guess the question is what kinds of growth rates can appear for groups 16:01:40 mine at least 16:03:05 as for me, i just had to unburden myself.. having a difficult night 16:03:16 well ejaculation is a good way to do that 16:03:36 but i wonder whether this graph thing has been thought about for hundreds of thousands of years 16:03:43 i mean group thing 16:03:55 at least they talk about these groth rates a lot in the CA literature 16:04:06 * 16:04:09 growth 16:04:11 oklopol: why groups? there is no requirement that the edges of a graph have any group action relating them. 16:04:17 ion: wget http://sprunge.us/jSTO -O working.html && xdg-open working.html 16:04:26 ion: It... may be a little anticlimatic after that effort. 16:04:28 oerjan: because the question is trivial for graphs? 16:04:32 But I wanted to try out the script! 16:04:53 and CA are always run on a group, so when i hear grid, it's a particular group. 16:05:29 so countable finitely generated groups 16:05:34 well countable is implied ofc 16:05:35 um and grids are a subset of graphs, so if it's trivial for graphs... 16:05:54 it's trivial that you can construct any dimension for graphs 16:06:05 by using graphs that aren't f.g. groups. 16:06:27 oerjan: More like grads are sabsats of graphs. 16:06:29 *af 16:06:31 *+abelian 16:06:40 elliott: heh 16:06:56 the graph of the free non-abelian group on 2 generators is pretty clearly infinite dimensional 16:07:15 (it's an infinite branching binary tree, iirc) 16:07:26 well obviously 16:07:34 i think by 3 neighbours what i had in mind was connect-4 rules 16:07:46 * elliott wonders what the most downvoted deleted question is. 16:08:15 but what i don't know is whether this is well-defined 16:08:19 for all graphs 16:08:27 i doubt it 16:08:29 alkdfjlasdjfklas 16:08:32 for all groups. 16:08:32 and in the other direction, finitely generated abelian implies quotient of Z^n, and i suspect quotients cannot increase dimension 16:09:14 well i don't see the need for abelianity 16:09:31 you might look into amenability 16:09:32 at least for CA you usually assume it's either amenable or sometimes just sofic 16:10:25 (sofics contain abelians and residually finite ones) 16:10:36 (and there are no examples of nonsofic f.g. groups) 16:10:46 also, why do i always get caught up in discussions just as i'm becoming too hungry to think clearly --> 16:10:53 :D 16:11:13 i like how we mentioned amenability one second apart 16:12:30 actually iirc there aren't really any examples of nonamenable groups either 16:12:58 erm, the free group on 2 generators... 16:13:24 well i don't even remember the definition of amenability, but i see 16:13:58 well i do seem to recall that the garden of eden theorem is true on amenable groups but not on the free group 16:14:10 i think it was a long-standing, eventually solved problem whether every non-amenable countable discrete group had to contain F_2, i don't quite remember which way the solution went 16:14:19 oh cool 16:15:09 was it you who solved it though? 16:15:19 oerjan 16:16:08 -!- juhani has joined. 16:16:16 hello finnish person 16:16:24 -!- juhani has changed nick to nortti. 16:16:34 oh it's just you 16:28:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:28:50 Hello! 16:29:02 What do people think of 0x10c? 16:32:43 olleh 16:32:59 oklopol: me, heck no 16:33:27 in fact i'm not entirely sure it was solved. should look it up... 16:33:58 oerjan <-- I WAS HUNGRY I SAID 16:34:13 (technically still am) 16:34:29 i proved a lemma about a very specific class of topological groups today! 16:34:46 Hang on, has anyone asked david_werecat the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS? 16:34:59 oh hm 16:35:01 well it doesn't really require a proof but i stated it 16:35:20 * oerjan swats Taneb for never marking his move in the iwc h&h's -----### 16:35:32 Ow 16:35:44 david_werecat, do you live in Hexham? 16:35:57 you're not the only one, but you're the one within swatting distance 16:36:08 Sorry 16:36:12 Hexham? 16:36:32 It's a town, famous for it's unusually high density of esoteric programmers 16:36:59 Ah, no. 16:37:00 david_werecat: it has been established that approximately 91.3% of #esoteric regulars are from either hexham or helsinki. 16:37:41 oerjan: Is your swatula thing always 5'-'3'#'? 16:37:58 So this is what it feels like to be a minority... 16:37:59 shachaf: DEFINITELY 16:38:14 swatula :D 16:38:14 Do you type it in by hand each time or do you have some automation to do it? 16:38:23 david_werecat: the approximation may be a _teeny_ bit off 16:39:00 automation, what kind of insane magic is that 16:39:02 beeny tit 16:39:13 My approximation that 100% of approximations are accurate is probably off too... 16:39:13 (there's 2 from Hexham and 5-ish from Helsinki) 16:39:22 * shachaf has been to Helsinki! 16:39:31 * Taneb has been to Hexham! 16:39:31 5 1/2-ish, then 16:39:34 I've also been to the UK. 16:39:40 Taneb: are you sure about the number for helsinki? 16:39:45 can you list them 16:39:53 oklopol, no, I cannot 16:40:01 i thought it was two for helsinki 16:40:22 it's three at least 16:40:28 fizzie Deewiant atehwa (I think) 16:40:33 oh ineiros too i think 16:40:40 nortti? 16:40:45 nortti is not from h 16:40:48 Ah 16:41:06 those finns, confusing everyone by having more than one town 16:41:10 `? finland 16:41:19 Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least five of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. 16:41:23 i also thought ineiros isn't from helsinki 16:41:30 `? hexham 16:41:35 hexham? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 16:41:58 `? Ngevd 16:42:00 I am now living in Helsinki. Two months ago I was living in Espoo. 16:42:00 ​%Փ.ɢ1cs ؄͉[. .$}.fOgW-uuhݔ~}8pȘ3 $.K܈...P*F,i.a+^BT.1ڛ.%č>"Yۇ!....L3K̩cjr2)8+[#\.kq).;{`.T.wN.3A.95OE.3y'.Y..1PXϔ. q5?qia99.hDǥVKaԲT 16:42:06 (my alt) 16:42:06 alright 16:42:17 so just 4 then 16:42:22 and possibly more 16:42:31 I think that said "from Helsinki". 16:42:50 what said? 16:42:56 `learn Hexham is a European town. There are five people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Ngevd runs the student board. 16:43:00 I knew that. 16:43:12 ineiros: More like: EsPOO. 16:43:12 should be close enough. 16:43:27 :DSDSD 16:43:47 Of course, for Helsinki to have the same esolanger density as hexham, it would need over 100 esolangers. 16:43:52 fizzie, try harder 16:44:07 Is ion helsinkian? 16:44:19 btw there's another esolanger at our uni, he just doesn't do irc 16:44:19 Tampere 16:44:26 Ah 16:44:26 ah it was ion 16:44:36 i just remembered it was someone who started with i 16:44:47 and both ilari and ineiros do, so i assumed he double lives there 16:44:47 (And technically fizzie is not living in Helsinki) 16:44:58 Aloril? 16:45:22 I've been to Tampere! 16:45:37 But I think we could count the whole Greater Helsinki. 16:45:38 me too 16:46:06 aka Finland 16:46:17 ^ 16:46:17 oerjan: You mean Europe. 16:46:32 shachaf: you haven't conquered us _yet_... 16:46:35 Are fizzie and fizziew the same person? 16:46:49 the other is fizzie's wife 16:46:50 Taneb: implausible 16:47:04 Or actually the Helsinki Metropolitan Area. Greater Helsinki refers to an area that is too large. 16:47:05 oh right, fizzie is married (yes it was a shock to me too) 16:47:33 (disclaimer: fizziew may not be fizzie's wife) 16:47:52 It took me ages to figure out oklopol and oklofok are different people 16:48:15 i 16:48:23 Taneb i hate to break it to you but 16:48:26 I believe fizziew is just fizzie's alter ego. 16:48:29 they're 16:48:29 they're not 16:49:08 elliott: Are shachaf and shachef different people? 16:49:13 fizzie: btw me and my ex once talked about taking the bus to helsinki, and asking you to be a witness for our marriage and then getting married 16:49:29 shachaf: Yes. 16:49:52 elliott: wait, that means shachaf doesn't look like a monkey anyhow? 16:50:05 (the one that visited the channel once) 16:50:10 (or twice) 16:50:33 oerjan: Huh? I'm not the Bonzi BUDDY thing. 16:50:38 oerjan: That's just he background. 16:50:45 oerjan: I'm the multicolored thing in the foreground. 16:50:55 -!- shachef has joined. 16:50:57 shachaf: suuuuuure. hm what was the link again. 16:50:58 oerjan doesn't "get" art. 16:51:02 hi shachef 16:51:08 @botsnack 16:51:08 :) 16:51:20 oerjan: http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png 16:51:21 shachef: @admin + elliott 16:51:27 @admin - shachaf 16:51:33 @squat 16:51:33 -!- shachef has quit (Client Quit). 16:51:36 gracias 16:51:49 oerjan: Based on this photograph: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png 16:53:40 In other news... 16:53:44 * oerjan wonders if _everyone_ gets ben-kiki as the second suggested google completion for shachaf 16:54:01 oerjan, I do 16:54:07 I think that's his: name. 16:54:07 i do 16:54:54 Nathan van Doorn (@Taneb) is now following you on Twitter! 16:54:56 elliott: um, duh, that's why i asked 16:55:03 Hmm. I think I'll go and watch some burlesque. 16:55:16 shachaf, that is my twitter account! 16:55:18 elliott: I think many other people have that: name. 16:55:36 Why do I even have a Twitter account? 16:55:42 shachaf: I refuse to believe more than, like, three people could have a name as silly as "Ben-Kiki". 16:55:58 elliott: And they're all me. :-( 16:56:23 elliott: Hay you. 16:56:53 Hi zzo38. 16:57:18 zzo38 reads log, I heard. 16:57:22 (Hi zzo38!) 16:57:43 zzo38: Hay you. 16:58:21 @quote oerjan 16:58:26 lam 16:58:27 lam 16:58:33 i'm now on page 3 in google, i should probably ask for a raise 16:58:38 nice timing, that 16:59:56 oren, that's almost oerjan. maybe i am secretly his father. 17:00:52 shachaf: Are you oerjan's son? 17:01:11 elliott: That depends. Does oerjan hate styrofoam? 17:02:16 Don't say "styrofoam" I'll hear it aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargjiorjg 17:03:15 elliott: Little-known fact: Pronouncing my name correctly sounds like rubbing styrofoam against styrofoam. 17:03:49 http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html is this me? 17:04:01 shachaf: your father gave you a name he hates? 17:04:05 oklopol: yes 17:04:16 i don't remember that at all :D 17:04:16 oerjan: Are you my father? 17:04:50 seriously i've been sleep proving or something 17:04:53 shachaf: it's _somewhat_ unlikely based only on name resemblance 17:05:18 but hey, transliterating to and from hebrew can do weird things 17:06:20 Absolutely. 17:06:35 Did you know "John" is derived from a name that has the same letter as the "ch" in my name? 17:07:01 something like yochanan, yes 17:07:31 * oerjan remember that from our baby names book 17:07:32 What does "Ørjan" mean, anyway? 17:07:35 *s 17:07:56 would you believe it's the same as "George"? :P 17:08:10 (thus meaning "farmer") 17:09:43 George is my middle name 17:09:45 After my great-grandfather, who's middle name was Elliott 17:09:46 *whose 17:09:53 sometimes i google "oklopol" and marvel at my genius for hours 17:09:55 is this bad 17:10:01 no 17:10:43 oklopol: what happens if you google "oklofok" instead? 17:11:09 elliott: Does "(" have a value? 17:11:39 elliott: If not, why does "2+( 5*3)" have a value? 17:11:42 oerjan: not much. 17:11:50 okay 17:11:52 but at least that one isn't also used by a set of idiots 17:12:01 wat 17:12:10 oklopol is used by a few others, based on google 17:12:22 Apparently there's a racehorse called "Lady Taneb" 17:13:23 oerjan: ooh, so you're yrj in finnish 17:13:47 i'm gonna start calling you that 17:14:02 yyk 17:14:09 it also means vomit 17:14:09 hi yrjö 17:14:20 Oh. :-( 17:14:27 I'll go back to Ørjan. 17:14:32 so it's probably not as common nowadays 17:14:39 you don't say. 17:15:14 Ørj̷an 17:15:27 well it could have been worse, i could have been named Bent, Odd, Even, Odd-Even, 17:15:32 Ø̷r̷j̷a̷n 17:15:44 also i could have been able to not hit return accidentally 17:16:21 (Odd-Even is an _entirely_ plausible norwegian name.) 17:16:38 Ø̷̷r̷j̷a̷n 17:16:41 Aw. 17:16:54 Hmm. 17:17:02 odd-even :O 17:17:14 holy fuck that's be awesome 17:17:23 H̷ello. 17:17:25 Aw. 17:17:34 You can't make a combining character a different colour? 17:17:34 what 17:17:59 ("By the way, Odd Even is the name all computer nerds joke that they'll name their child.") 17:18:28 oerjan: Did you joke that you'll name your child that? 17:19:00 no. the quote may not be entirely true. 17:19:17 * shachaf gasps. 17:19:18 I, for one, have joked about calling my child Telemachus 17:19:32 I, for one, have jokes about calling my child elliott. 17:19:37 * shachaf is secretly elliott's father. 17:20:20 elliott: Make Knuth check his email faster. :-( 17:21:14 My plan to translate my name into Latin is failing... 17:21:55 Translating it via Hebrew gives "dedit" 17:22:08 However, that's a verb 17:22:40 nathanius georgius aculeanus 17:24:21 shachaf: Do you want to see something awful? 17:24:26 shachaf: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad 17:24:29 that's awkward with hebrew names, sometimes they're meanings are verb phrases 17:24:31 *their 17:24:32 This is the worst page on the HaskellWiki. 17:24:40 BOLD ITALICS EVERYWHERE 17:25:20 elliott: What's your problem with separating the composition timeline from the execution timeline? 17:25:29 Oh, it used to be fine: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&oldid=33391 17:25:39 Then a certain WillNess messed it up over the course of several years: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Monad&action=history 17:26:12 Who *is* this WillNess person? 17:26:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:26:34 elliott: that's just the perfect opportunity to use the edit summary "cleaning up the wilderness" 17:27:05 * oerjan realizes mean 17:27:58 elliott: Wow, that "composition timeline" thing came up right in their first edit. 17:28:03 shachaf: Ohhh, now I remember who that is. 17:28:12 elliott: I hadn't heard "Monads as science-fiction plots" before. 17:28:14 It's the guy who asked that really ridiculous Haskell question on SO. 17:28:15 But I guess it makes sense. 17:28:30 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9149183/tail-optimization-guarantee-loop-encoding-in-haskell 17:28:33 The real fun is in the comments. 17:29:51 elliott: :-( 17:30:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:32:06 Taneb: hm maybe a better translation of van Doorn would be Jovianus 17:32:19 looking at the town etymology 17:35:11 oerjan: Can you ruthlessly kill anyone who argues definitions with someone trying to teach them the definition they're arguing about? 17:35:12 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:35:21 -!- cheater__ has joined. 17:35:29 elliott: "Then Monads serve to separate the pure from the pure in one big holiday celebration after another." 17:36:23 elliott: that may be difficult 17:37:05 elliott: What if YOU'RE MISLEADING? 17:37:32 elliott "Miss Leading" HIRD 17:37:36 Hmm 17:41:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:43:41 oklopol: finally got to looking it up, it's right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenable_group#Non-examples 17:45:08 crazy shit 17:45:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:46:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:55:00 oerjan: What do you mean "shock"? 17:55:36 er, um, well, you see 17:55:42 * oerjan shyffles feet 17:56:02 like, this, you know, this channel, people, you know, are sort of, you know 17:56:08 GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKS 17:57:13 ifyouknowwhatimean. 17:57:32 Well, it's not really my fault, I was sort of not the person with the initiative. 17:57:36 (diff | hist) . . N Dog Training: How it works‎; 16:53 . . (+1,151) . . Jacksmithan (Talk | contribs | block)‎ (Created page with "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_training Dog training] is the process of teaching a dog to perform behaviors in response to certain commands. The most common behaviors are "...") 17:57:41 Finally! I can find out Dog Training: How it works. 17:58:08 elliott: you realize that's a _very_ plausible esolang name 17:59:10 Even the quoted snipped starts out like an esolang description. I mean, "behaviors in response to certain commands" and so on. 17:59:11 it will be a hybrid of Chef, Zombie, Hunter, Homespring and Snack. 17:59:54 i guess there's some redundancy there. 18:00:12 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:00:31 fizzie: hm maybe we should use that as basis 18:00:41 Don't forget LOGO. 18:00:45 It definitely has some LOGO. 18:00:48 Just s/turtle/dog/ 18:00:59 ah yes. and Karel the Robot. 18:04:45 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: häivyn). 18:06:05 -!- augur has joined. 18:09:03 http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/128320/problem-for-run-applet-using-html 18:11:28 Oh god I so don't want to read that. 18:12:08 quick 18:12:10 it'll be deleted soon 18:12:24 -!- davidwerecat has joined. 18:12:48 Looks basically just like a generic "I'm incompetent and secondarily too incompetent to know where to complain about being incompetent" 18:13:08 Yes, but the formatting! The formatting! 18:13:54 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Client Quit). 18:14:00 -!- davidwerecat has joined. 18:15:22 -!- davidwerecat has changed nick to david_werecat. 18:15:46 does stackoverflow have preview, i forget 18:16:34 yes 18:17:04 -!- monqy has joined. 18:17:19 ah, then i shall not put them on my list of sites to utterly destroy when become world dictator. well not for that reason, anyway. 18:17:26 *i 18:19:12 you're ok with destroying sites but not people? 18:21:17 well the owners of wordpress _might_ want to hide early. 18:24:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:29:09 oerjan: why is 1.19 not out yet. 18:29:32 could one of you give me a couple of thousand euros 18:31:06 hm btw i just looked at the hello world list, in my browser those table of content links that are before stars in the 2L program are unclickable. 18:31:18 three different institutions have apparently decided that i don't need money to stay alive. 18:31:37 assholes 18:31:37 oerjan: i have already spent one day this month working around bugs in your out-of-date browser. 18:31:48 do you really want me to spend another? 18:32:11 elliott: well does it look ok in yours, at a window size too small to fit them side by side? 18:32:58 wait you mean a window size so small that the stars overlap the TOC? 18:33:10 yes. my usual size btw. 18:34:01 it's just a little narrower than full screen anyway... 18:34:49 fine, i will fix it. can i convince you to not complain if i put pre { overflow-y: scroll } in the site CSS in return? the page has sprouted a horizontal scrollbar again. 18:35:06 heh 18:35:41 that was a serious question 18:36:28 oh hm. there was one problem i saw with that the other day... 18:39:59 ehird ok 18:39:59 um, don't you mean overflow-x:scroll 18:40:00 What? 18:40:02 My nick isn't ehird. 18:40:04 oerjan: Er, maybe. 18:40:08 I mix up my coordinates. 18:40:37 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:40:55 * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net lindbohm.freenode.net 18:40:55 Heh. 18:41:15 @botsnack 18:41:16 :) 18:42:21 elliott: ouch, sorry that's horrible, it would put a scrollbar on _all_ pre's, regardless if needed. 18:42:41 oerjan: ok i mean pre { overflow-y: auto } 18:42:44 sheesh, stop nitpicking 18:43:05 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:43:49 -!- cheater__ has joined. 18:44:07 elliott: it's just that i saw the other day that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List had useless scrollbars like that 18:45:04 oerjan: i cannot be held responsible for other people's crimes against formatting :P 18:45:26 _ideally_, I'd just have every line wrap, and have an indicator when lines wrap (like an indentation of the line and an arrow next to it) 18:45:30 but that'd require a small mediawiki extension 18:45:41 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:45:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:46:54 elliott: i think it's because he used _both_ word-wrap:break-word and overflow-x:scroll, i'll try removing the latter. 18:48:07 oerjan: erm 18:48:11 oerjan: do you really think touching that page is wise 18:48:49 * glguy removes ban on *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net 18:48:49 lame 18:48:59 * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 *!*mathnerd3@*.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net lindbohm.freenode.net 18:49:01 whoa 18:49:02 elliott: oh hm. 18:49:13 elliott: ok feel free to rollback if you want :P 19:01:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:09:29 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:23:02 shachaf: 19:23:03 Absolutely newbie. I have the following list: pixels = [[255, 255, 255], [0, 0, 0]], but pixels !! 0 seems to return a double 19:23:03 (Actually a list of three Doubles) 19:23:50 what 19:24:57 -!- TodPunk has joined. 19:31:58 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10026205/to-sample-a-voice-from-many-voices-using-matlab 19:32:01 I have a wave file of chicken voices. Among the voices there is a sound of chicken vomit. 19:32:02 So I've already convert the audio to Matlab plot, but don't have the idea on how to differentiate between the surround chicken voices and the vomit chicken. 19:32:36 X-D 19:33:54 -!- nortti has joined. 19:34:44 -!- augur has joined. 19:40:32 -!- itidus20 has joined. 19:40:55 SliTaz GNU/Linux runs great on Thinkpad T20 until it starts to swap to disk... 19:44:13 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:52:53 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:54:38 `help 19:54:40 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 19:55:10 hi 19:55:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:55:51 hi ais523 19:56:09 hi elliott 19:57:19 `run echo wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee >test 19:57:22 No output. 19:58:50 `fortune 19:58:50 oerjan: Thank you for your helpful contribution. 19:58:54 Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. 19:59:12 RocketJSquirrel: that actually helped me... 19:59:32 yeah 20:02:37 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:04:18 HackEgo: but i don't like that kind of experience :( 20:05:26 `fortunr 20:05:28 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fortunr: not found 20:05:36 `ofortuna 20:05:37 `fortune 20:05:39 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ofortuna: not found 20:05:53 Peak District <--> Is pickled tart \ -- anagrama 20:07:23 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:08:31 `run echo 'fortune; echo hel' > lbl 20:08:34 No output. 20:09:17 @where hel `run sh lbl 20:09:17 I know nothing about hel. 20:09:35 don't start another identical botloop... 20:09:42 ais523: btw do rollbacks hide edits from (default) recent changes or not? 20:09:44 @where+ hel `run sh lbl 20:09:45 Done. 20:09:48 oerjan: they don't 20:09:52 `run sh lbl 20:09:55 I lay my head on the railroad tracks, \ Waitin' for the double E. \ The railroad don't run no more. \ Poor poor pitiful me....[chorus] \.Poor poor pitiful me, poor poor pitiful me. \.These young girls won't let me be, \.Lord have mercy on me! \.Woe is me! \ \ Well, I met a girl, West Hollywood, \ Well, I ain't naming names. \ But she really worked me over good, \ She was just like 20:09:57 you can see my rollback of NSQX's edit to [[User:elliott]] in recentchanges 20:09:59 and the pervious edit before 20:10:13 oerjan: they don't normally, there's a hidden URL param you can use to make them hide the edit, though 20:10:24 ?bot=1 on a contributions page will change the rollback links on that page to hide the edit 20:10:24 Unknown command, try @list 20:10:30 huh, they don't? 20:10:33 are sysops different? 20:10:50 (diff | hist) . . m User:Elliott‎; 01:37 . . (+17) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs)‎ (Reverted edits by 202.156.14.101 (talk) to last revision by Elliott) 20:10:50 (Block log); 01:37 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs)‎ changed block settings for NSQX (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled) (block evasion) 20:10:50 (Block log); 01:36 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs)‎ blocked 202.156.14.101 (Talk) with an expiry time of 1 week (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) (block evasion) 20:10:50 (diff | hist) . . User:Elliott‎; 01:36 . . (-17) . . 202.156.14.101 (Talk)‎ (ZNT ELLIOTT LIEK EHIRD?) 20:10:54 that's while logged out. 20:11:16 elliott: I think bot rollback is accessible to anyone with rollback perms (which is not the same as undo perms, and which aren't given by default in the default config) 20:11:26 but it's a hidden feature, it's not mentioned in the interface anywhere 20:11:39 why do people use the golden section search for steepest descent when (according to my calculation) randomized binary section search is about 1% faster and not significantly harder to implement? 20:12:00 oh, they don't [hide] normally, OK 20:13:02 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/rumlg/clearly_go_is_a_superior_weapon_if_the_goal_is_to/c48ttru 20:14:12 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Conservapedia covers EPR stuff 20:14:51 excellent poop receptor 20:16:33 conservapedia considers the european pressurized reactor a sure sign of the Beast. 20:17:14 oh $DEITY no. We are going to get Fox tv here on Finland 20:17:16 huh 20:17:28 the only mental link i get for EPR is einstein-podolsky-rosen 20:17:38 and the european platform for rehabilitation is even worse, being socialist healthcare. 20:17:38 quintopia, that's what I meant, I think 20:18:01 977 to go! 20:18:02 elliott gets toilets and oerjan does google searches 20:18:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:18:12 hi Phantom_Hoover hows america 20:18:21 im annapolis 20:18:22 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 20:18:37 maryland is okay 20:18:44 say hi to doodle for me while you're there 20:19:11 they can't understand _anything_ of electron paramagnetic resonance, so that's obviously evil. 20:20:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7). 20:20:19 i'm sure you can guess what they think of ecological planning and research. 20:21:38 what 20:21:46 oerjan has gone insane 20:21:46 hth 20:22:12 Phantom_Hoover: it's obviously part of the global warming conspiracy 20:22:17 heads tails heads? 20:22:31 also 20:22:34 who am doodle 20:23:32 It's funny how I regularly get highlights from the channel because people ask about Finnish people here :) 20:23:58 atehwa: It's your fault for being so Finnish! 20:24:03 You're in Helsinki, right? We were doing statistics. 20:24:38 Phantom_Hoover: just a friend of mine in the annapolis area 20:25:20 elliott: quite so. Although it doesn't make much difference which municipality you're in if it's the capital area 20:25:41 So, it's basically same town, whether it's Helsinki, Espoo or Vantaa 20:26:02 atehwa: Well, we're just picking the biggest Helsinki possible, because you need all the help you can get to surpass Hexham's esolang density. 20:26:05 *esolanger 20:26:41 Where is Hexham? 20:26:48 (maybe i should just google 20:26:49 ) 20:26:55 RocketJSquirrel: arent you at purdue? 20:27:07 atehwa: It's a small-ish market town in the UK. There are two people in this channel from there. 20:27:12 One of them is me; the other is Taneb/Ngevd. 20:27:20 The probability of this is incomprehensibly small. 20:27:28 quintopia: Eeyup. 20:27:58 ok 20:28:12 I'm quite sure the Finnish capital area will surpass you 20:28:22 atehwa: You'd need over 100 esolangers. 20:28:39 ah, so we're talking about comparative density here? 20:28:50 0.02% of Hexhamers are esolangers (going by 2001 population data, so probably a bit less) 20:29:06 :D 20:29:25 So you need 104.18 esolangers in Helsinki-the-city to beat us. 20:29:30 Okay, I'll more to Inari with some other esolanger so we'll have better statistics there 20:29:47 we've got really low-population municipalities in Finland :) 20:30:01 elliott: i am not sure expanding helsinki beyond the university-dense area is likely to help 20:30:04 Yeah, but if there's somewhere else in Finland with more esolangers, you don't even enter the competition ;) 20:30:08 oerjan: Good point. 20:30:27 ALSO: I have just realised that American houses are like normal houses pushed down a floor. 20:31:01 oerjan: Helsinki University of Technology is actually in Espoo, and they have some esolangers there. 20:31:03 Phantom_Hoover: I 20:31:15 atehwa: Is that the one that's not Wave? 20:31:22 They all have basements for some reason. 20:31:44 elliott: um... what are you referring to? 20:31:50 I don't understand 20:32:00 I can't fathom why, seeing as AFAICT they fulfil the same function as a second floor but with the added benefits of being dank, lightless and prone to flooding. 20:32:27 atehwa: Aalto. 20:32:33 ah. :) 20:32:39 yes. 20:32:41 atehwa: I call it Wave University since fizzie was all "oh, they're renaming our university to Wave" one day. 20:32:50 And that's a marginally more ridiculous name than Aalto. 20:33:05 HUT was renamed to Aalto when they merged with some other higher education institutes 20:33:08 Phantom_Hoover: tornados maybe? 20:33:19 Aalto is because of Alvar Aalto 20:33:21 I doubt it somehow. 20:33:28 atehwa: oh, so it's the one that _is_ aalto? 20:33:32 I haven't heard of many tornadoes in Maryland. 20:33:37 I wonder why he was the one to be named after... 20:33:39 or does HUT not stand for Helsinki University of Technology... 20:33:49 elliott: yes, they're the same 20:33:51 ... and where does that TKK thing come into this?! your universities are really confusing :) 20:34:01 HUT and TKK also mean the same 20:34:10 one university, three names 20:34:15 TKK is Finnish acronym whereas HUT is the English one 20:35:11 similarly, the art school has two acronyms, UIAH and TAIK (but they got merged into Aalto) 20:35:55 sincerely, what I keep wondering about is why all Finnish universities want English acronyms in addition to having Finnish ones. 20:36:27 to make people think they have twice as many universities 20:36:38 possibly the most devious plot ever 20:37:23 we mostly just use the english one 20:38:55 shachaf is going to turn off IRC to get something done. 20:42:03 wat 20:42:12 'Larva' is Latin for 'ghost'. 20:42:21 they knew something 20:42:22 we didn't 20:42:25 wat^2 20:42:35 i just found over 500 euros in a plastic bag 20:42:52 we have really many universities anyway, compared to the population, because at some point the state wanted to give support to rural areas by dispersing all kinds of institutions all around the country 20:42:52 i just found a plastic bag in over 500 euros 20:42:56 i have been throwing money in there for some time, apparently quite a bit :D 20:43:04 is oklopol broke or sth 20:43:07 yes 20:43:12 is this because you bought that computer 20:43:21 Phantom_Hoover: check out lemur okthxbye 20:43:47 i was supposed to get a 1200 grant, plus 300 extra, 1000 award money, and 3000 salary 20:43:50 i got 2000 salary. 20:44:16 perhaps the rest is coming this month 20:44:21 perhaps never 20:44:28 in any case, the 500 may help. 20:44:37 i didn't count all of it, probably there's at least 100 more 20:44:45 plus i do have more bags somewhere in there 20:44:59 and i can always rob my neighbors 20:45:41 elliott: the computer was before i started a savings account which i won't touch for 10 years and where i put all my moneys 20:45:50 i used to have moneys back then. 20:46:03 are you sure you're feeling ok 20:46:04 it sounds like 20:46:05 you're being 20:46:07 "responsible" 20:46:24 well i also just spent 600 on train tickets i have no use for 20:46:29 and i bought a guitar 20:46:50 also today i returned like 70 euros worth of bottles 20:47:08 i had lined our university office with them 20:47:14 atehwa: btw trondheim's university (NTNU)'s official name in english is norwegian university of science and technology. it is told that it originally was supposed to be "technology and science" until someone noticed a small detail... 20:47:16 i mean the walls 20:47:35 oerjan: they must have been nuts 20:47:40 HAAAAAAAA 20:47:40 HAAAAAAAA 20:47:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:48:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:48:11 (that's something like 150 liters or something) 20:48:22 Woah, I left this open 20:48:23 * oerjan puts elliott on the list of people who spoil jokes. 20:48:35 so finnish people 20:48:46 Fallout 1 for free. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout 20:48:52 do you to take 6 trips between kuopio and turku 20:49:48 If by "kuopio" you mean "cairo" and by "turku" you mean "turkmenistan" 20:50:04 you would need that? 20:50:12 Probably not 20:50:19 also you aren't finnish 20:50:28 i should probably sell them on the internets or something 20:50:36 afaiu you can't return them 20:51:38 also you aren't finnish <-- he's just translating to equivalent british empire terms 20:53:55 oerjan, I promise I'll mark my hurts and my heals from now on! 20:54:25 yay! 20:57:53 I WANT MOAR MONEYS 20:58:26 why can't i be one of those people that win all the lotteries 20:58:30 * Sgeo accuses oerjan of being legal, winning, and not fun 20:58:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:59:09 Sgeo: but i'm not a player! 20:59:17 * oerjan cackles madly 20:59:52 GOPL should be an esolang 21:00:01 Erm, described on the esolang wiki 21:00:19 * oerjan isn't sure he gets Sgeo's references here 21:00:27 http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/frc/index.html 21:00:59 I was a fan of reading this stuff in 2003 21:01:24 oh right. 21:05:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:07:53 can two people upvote me plz thanks 21:07:53 (don't) 21:07:54 @time 21:07:55 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 22:07:48 21:08:01 elliott++? 21:08:06 or is that not an upvote? 21:08:12 no 21:08:18 ok so 3 hours to get two upvotes, easy 21:08:32 elliott: i can think positive thought about you if that helps? 21:08:34 oh, you're trying to hit SO karma cap? 21:08:37 thoughts 21:09:16 hmm, statistic just in: Chrome has a higher market share than IE on Sundays 21:09:30 ais523: not the cap, just 200 21:09:38 200 a day keeps the doctor away, they say 21:09:54 though i only average 167 :'( 21:16:19 -!- derdon has joined. 21:18:42 elliott: you've given up trying to cap it every day, then? good, I think 21:20:11 ais523: no, 200 is the cap 21:20:20 but you can reach 200 without reaching the cap 21:20:28 ? 21:21:39 I'm a little rusty on Haskell, but iirc, the ++ syntax is memory-expensive, where as the cons operator (:) is cheap. Is it possible to use something like (key, x) : parseToEntries xs? Again . . . my Haskell is very rusty, so this might be way off. – jpm 3 mins ago 21:24:48 ais523: accepts don't count to cap 21:24:54 *towards the 21:25:03 ah, OK 21:25:08 that makes sense, actually 21:25:51 wait, really? :) 21:26:10 There is no user by the name "Ehird". Usernames are case sensitive. Check your spelling, or create a new account. 21:26:12 err, oh dear 21:26:16 is it "ehird"? 21:26:27 my test wiki user somehow got renamed to "ehird" when i tried to add the lowercase username thing 21:26:39 time to poke at the DB... 21:27:51 * elliott is hoping to get the Math extension working w/o texvc 21:30:05 yay it works 21:30:38 ais523: what's a WP article with lots of LaTeX? 21:30:55 err, hmm, [[rotation matrix]]? 21:31:04 just thinking of one I came across recently (pointing my students to it) 21:31:10 thanks, that looks like a good test case 21:31:57 haha, what a good bug 21:32:17 MediaWiki escapes the & inside the math tag 21:32:19 turning it into & 21:32:26 so all aligned stuff gets amp; after it with MathJax 21:33:09 haha indeed 21:33:49 guess MediaWiki's MathJax support isn't ready for prime-time, then 21:40:50 "polls show that 21:40:56 "polls show that indeed 21:41:45 "polls show that over 20% of Americans say their main source of news is the Fox News Channel." 21:41:55 but more importantly, "polls show that 21:44:07 @time 21:44:08 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 22:44:01 21:44:10 hmph 21:48:21 @time 21:48:22 Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 06 00:50:02 UTC+3.00 2012 21:48:34 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: sleep). 21:49:50 ais523: you wake up! it is very dark. you are a graue. 21:49:59 you are likely to eat something. 21:50:09 elliott: almost works, but not really 21:51:12 EXCUSE ME you just RUINED my PERFECT ZORK FANFICTION 21:52:20 * Look for 'orphan' revisions hooked to pages which don't exist 21:52:20 * And 'childless' pages with no revisions. 21:52:20 * Then, kill the poor widows and orphans. 21:52:20 * Man this is depressing. 21:52:20 -- Mediawiki maintanence script orphans.php 21:52:53 haha, you even get that if you pass it --help 21:54:24 *W 21:55:20 "Loophole Could Allow Private Land Claims on Other Worlds" 21:55:23 Aerican Empire? 21:55:39 -!- parkkk has joined. 21:56:00 `welcome parkkk 21:56:03 parkkk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 21:56:36 Do you know of a humorous book or article which employs an esoteric language as a vehicle to introduce its readers to computer science? 21:56:59 a la "Introduction to Computer Science through Brainfuck" 21:57:18 I don't think so, although it makes a lot of sense 21:57:26 I would love to read it! 21:57:37 I think you're now legally obligated to write it. 21:57:38 I've heard rumours of a course that started teaching people Ook! as a first language 21:58:02 ais523: Taught by monqy? 21:58:07 I will, at some point, but presently I find myself unable to as I'm a beginning cs student 21:58:11 elliott: I don't know 21:58:31 ais523: It's... a joke... 21:58:46 It's not 21:59:10 not entirely, at least 22:01:14 what topics would this book embrace? Help me list a few items so I can begin doing research 22:01:45 No, I meant what I said to ais523 was a joke. 22:01:59 -!- Jafet has joined. 22:03:31 -!- cheater__ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 22:04:18 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:04:55 -!- MoALTz has joined. 22:06:13 -!- kmc has joined. 22:10:21 @time 22:10:21 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 23:10:14 22:10:44 elliott, are you planning on sleeping at a normal time? 22:10:51 22:11:22 For— WHY IS DWARF FORTRESS' RELEASE CYCLE MOVING SO QUICKLY 22:14:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night. As if.). 22:15:13 Phantom_Hoover: Again? 22:15:21 Sgeo: Don't be silly. 22:15:23 It's at 34.07. 22:15:34 34 came out in February. 22:15:40 Phantom_Hoover: Errythin' fast in 'Merica. 22:15:41 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:15:48 And those aren't bugfixes; he's overhauled animal training and clothing. 22:16:27 * Phantom_Hoover → trying to wrestle Henry into running Multiwinia the only way he knows: brute force and inadequate knowledge of X. 22:16:44 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:17:04 Phantom_Hoover: Bet you break it. 22:17:07 Enjoy your USbrick. 22:17:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:21:10 -!- cheater__ has joined. 22:23:00 -!- augur has joined. 22:23:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:24:15 Note to self: don't try to computers. Ever. 22:24:21 You're a moron. 22:25:24 Excuse me, it's not my fault I somehow bought a laptop with a GPU that seems to be moving backwards in time. 22:26:30 Phantom_Hoover: the gpu is going forwards, it's you and the rest of the world that are going backwards 22:27:03 It doesn't run Darwinia either. 22:27:09 Will... will it run Uplink. 22:27:22 (Correction, it does, but at ~1 FPS.) 22:27:55 HWELP I FOUND MY PLIERS 22:48:07 @time 22:48:07 Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 5 23:48:00 22:48:09 graaa 22:57:00 http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/128340/visual-studio-zooming-and-help-with-web-browser 22:57:09 Visual Studio: Zooming, and help with web browser? 22:57:09 up vote 22:57:09 -4 22:57:09 down vote 22:57:09 favorite 22:57:10 Okay, How do I do zoom!!???? I've been trying 2 figure this out. 22:57:12 And how to make it so that when I go to another website, it shows the URL of every website I'm on, not just the URL I just typed in?????????????? For example, when I type "facebook.com", it leads me to Facebook. Then say I click on an ad. It goes to another website, but the URL textbox still says "facebook.com". I've been trying 2 figure this out help!!!!!!!!!!!!! 22:57:17 By the way, I have 2010 Express. 22:57:57 * ais523 wonders if visual studio actually can act as a web browser 22:58:05 it wouldn't surprise me, it's not an entirely useless feature for an IDE to have… 22:58:27 At least at one point, Word had a web browser 22:58:45 It can render HTML, although it can't do it /well/. 22:59:05 Phantom_Hoover, it's MS, wouldn't it just use Trident? 22:59:24 Probably? 22:59:42 (IE's renderer) 22:59:45 iirc 22:59:49 Phantom_Hoover: How do you know that? 23:00:18 You know those computing classes I did back in 2010? 23:00:19 Yeah. 23:00:22 http://www.sitepoint.com/microsoft-drop-trident-from-internet-explorer/ 23:01:34 hilarious 23:02:08 Phantom_Hoover: Have I mentioned that I hold a grudge against chess players worldwide. 23:02:17 * Sgeo pretends that elliott was not being sarcastic 23:02:31 elliott, I used to play a little chess on occasion 23:02:41 Why. 23:03:25 Phantom_Hoover: Because they're dirty little sneaks. 23:03:32 "It is open source and has been in development far longer than any other engine." I don't believe the latter part is true of Lynx. 23:03:51 Phantom_Hoover: Dirty little sneaks who publish April Fools pranks on April 2nd. 23:03:54 There are certainly older engines, although I'm not sure whether any of the current ones are older. Gecko might be. 23:04:04 RocketJSquirrel: Uhhh... Gecko is not older than Lynx... 23:04:12 elliott, chess players? 23:04:17 RocketJSquirrel: Gecko is circa 1997. 23:04:19 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 23:04:35 Phantom_Hoover: http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8047, http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=8051 23:05:41 Oh, hm, I was operating under the misconception that Gecko was actually derived from the original Netscape engine. 23:05:49 Apparently it was developed for NS6. 23:05:55 So, I lie lie lie hyuk 23:06:15 RocketJSquirrel: You think they could have developed something as good as Mozilla out of Netscape 4? 23:06:22 Have you ever *used* Netscape 4? 23:06:40 In fact, the whole reason Netscape went to hell and went open-source is because they fucked themselves over rewriting everything from scratch. 23:06:49 Yes, but I don't doubt their ability to throw away vast chunks :) 23:06:52 When was the rewrite that Joel Spolsky uses as an example of a bad idea 23:07:26 That was the rewrite. 23:07:38 But when, between what versions? 4 and 6? 23:07:46 4 and 5 (never happened). 23:07:51 Became Mozilla instead. 23:07:58 Then they used Mozilla to make 6. 23:08:41 Oh: "At least one more major revision of Netscape was expected to be released with the old layout engine before the switch." 23:08:45 Right, I wasn't aware that Mozilla was a rewrite per se, I thought it was just a very significant overhaul. 23:08:51 "exhaustively analysed all lines that follow after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 and came to some extraordinary conclusions." 23:08:54 So they fucked themselves over WITHOUT the immediate benefit. 23:09:03 RocketJSquirrel: Well, I don't think the surrounding chrome was rewritten? 23:09:03 That in and of itself should be enough of a clue that it's a joke 23:09:04 But the engine was. 23:09:16 Sgeo: It goes on to "explain" how it was done without actually checking them all. 23:09:34 It's fairly plausibly-written apart from (a) the orders of magnitude being way off and (b) the Turing machines bit. 23:09:42 Still need to write that text backend for WebKit some time. 23:09:50 RocketJSquirrel: Right: "In October 1998, Netscape announced that its next browser would use Gecko (which was still called NGLayout at the time) rather than the old layout engine, requiring large parts of the application to be rewritten. While this decision was popular with web standards advocates, it was largely unpopular with Netscape developers, who were unhappy with the six months given for the rewrite.[7] It also meant that most of the work 23:09:50 done for Netscape Communicator 5.0 (including development on the Mariner improvements to the old layout engine) had to be abandoned. Netscape 6, the first Netscape release to incorporate Gecko, was released in November 2000 (the name Netscape 5 was never used)." 23:09:59 elliott: Yes, I can wikipedia too ;) 23:10:00 So Mozilla probably wasn't a COMPLETE rewrite. 23:10:05 Really? 23:10:06 I can't. 23:10:13 *brain axplote* 23:10:16 "Gecko also has limited support for some non-standard Internet Explorer features, such as the marquee element" 23:10:24 Can you imagine if it *didn't*? 23:10:26 That would be sin. 23:10:31 YAY MARQUEE 23:10:40 was created as a joke, right? 23:11:04 [[ 23:11:04 Lou Montulli is credited as the inventor of the blink tag at Netscape, although he claims he only suggested the idea, without writing any actual code.[1] 23:11:04 ... At some point in the evening I mentioned that it was sad that Lynx was not going to be able to display many of the HTML extensions that we were proposing, I also pointed out that the only text style that Lynx could exploit given its environment was blinking text. We had a pretty good laugh at the thought of blinking text, and talked about blinking this and that and how absurd the whole thing would be. [...] Saturday morning rolled around and 23:11:05 I headed into the office only to find what else but, blinking text. It was on the screen blinking in all its glory, and in the browser. How could this be, you might ask? It turns out that one of the engineers liked my idea so much that he left the bar sometime past midnight, returned to the office and implemented the blink tag overnight. He was still there in the morning and quite proud of it.[1] 23:11:10 ]] 23:11:49 I like how that means we can blame a non-standard, inaccessible, horrific HTML kludge on Lynx. 23:13:35 lol 23:14:11 @time 23:14:12 Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 00:14:05 23:14:17 grrrr 23:14:25 was it standard at any point, and unstandardised due to being so unpopular? or not? 23:14:45 It might be in HTML5? 23:14:54 Probably not. 23:14:59 doesn't even work nowadays. 23:15:03 WebKit doesn't support it. 23:15:26 , however, still works. 23:15:28 In all its glory. 23:15:54 "As with the blink element, because the marquee tagged images or text are not always completely visible, it can make printing such webpages to a paper hard-copy an impossible and inefficient task where the specific printed pages where the messages on screen scroll or blink have to be printed multiple times to capture all the pieces of text that could be displayed at any one given moment in time." 23:16:03 I wonder if anyone has ever printed a page multiple times to get all the marquee. 23:16:26 "Unlike its blinking counterpart, the marquee element has several attributes that can be used to control and adjust the appearance of the marquee." 23:16:30 Imagine with attributes. 23:16:37 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:16:58 "CSS properties are used to achieve the same effect as specified in the Marquee Module Level 3, which is in the call for implementations stage.[3]" 23:17:04 http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-marquee/ 23:17:04 WHY 23:17:06 WHY DOES THIS EXIST 23:17:29 marquee is amazing 23:17:45 why wouldn't it exist 23:18:00 Yeah, but to sully it with CSS? 23:31:07 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:31:07 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:33:22 -!- cheater__ has joined. 23:42:56 nice, CSS marquees :) 23:48:34 Marquee? 23:48:36 *vomit* 23:48:47 heretic 23:49:23 I internetted in the 90s! 23:49:31 I know the horrors that can bring! 23:51:21 http://olsner.se/marquee.php 23:51:27 Too bad IRC doesn’t have marquee. :-( 23:51:55 ion: IRC is a marquee that scrolls upwards slowly 23:52:06 True 23:52:18 So is a scrollable webpage. :-P 23:53:04 see, the marquee is the basis of everything good 23:55:54 (for the morbidly curious, I also have marquee2, marquee3 and marquee4 that do slightly different things with marquees) 23:56:27 ion: other people can't scroll your webpage 23:56:47 olsner: holy shit, that's art 23:57:46 marquee2 would be more fun if they alternated directions :) 23:58:51 olsner: http://olsner.se/marquee2.php?s=100 23:59:41 olsner: i want to see these in a fucking gallery 2012-04-06: 00:03:06 elliott: I got it done! 00:03:20 I wonder if I could css transform an iframe to make thumbnails of these in a gallery 00:04:19 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:09:39 or did you mean one of those meatspace galleries? 00:11:01 I want theatrical adaptations of marquee.php and marquee2.php 00:12:08 -!- david_werecat has joined. 00:13:04 olsner: yes a meatspace gallery 00:13:06 although a net one works too 00:13:20 shachaf: What was it? 00:14:16 -!- david_werecat has left. 00:16:52 elliott: What's it to you? 00:18:19 shachaf: It. 00:20:43 hmm, maybe a virtual meatspace gallery then? I wonder how well webgl combines with iframes 00:20:50 Argh, followed an ad link for some reason to the "shocking" "discovery" that Kevin Bacon is related to his wife. They're TENTH cousins, once removed. 00:20:55 And to them, apparently, that's distressing. 00:21:01 Presumably because they're fucking idiots. 00:24:05 shachaf: What *happened* to mmorrow, man? 00:24:28 RocketJSquirrel: TENTH COUSINS?!?!?!?!?! 00:24:34 That's practically fuckin' yer parents. 00:25:25 Hello! I've just realized that Haskell is no good for working with functions! 00:25:32 Hooray, family trees as cyclic graphs. :P 00:26:16 elliott: what should it be able to do that it can't? 00:26:53 ais523: nothing, that was one of my famous quoteless quotes 00:27:00 of this nonsense: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-April/100608.html 00:29:39 they don't appear to understand extensional equality 00:31:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:32:07 -!- augur has joined. 00:35:03 @time 00:35:04 Local time for elliott is Fri Apr 6 01:34:56 00:37:01 "I guess Lisp might be of this kind, but I'm not sure. In addition, I'm not a fan of parentheses." 00:37:03 ffffffffffffffffff 00:37:06 * kmc has a stroke and dies 00:37:39 i'm looking to buy a battleship BUT IT CAN'T BE GREY 00:37:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:38:15 -!- augur has joined. 00:38:19 kmc: also, by "battleship" I mean "yacht" 00:38:36 I bought this battleship "Haskell" and it's all big and heavy and shit, it's really bad at battling 00:38:36 the best kind of yacht is a decommissioned battleship 00:39:13 they used to paint crazy stripes on battleships to confuse rangefinding 00:39:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage 00:39:30 that's fucking awesome 00:40:30 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Dazzle-ships_in_Drydock_at_Liverpool.jpg awesome 00:41:48 'Dazzle makeup, or "CV Dazzle" (computer vision dazzle), to hamper automatic computer detection and recognition of faces, has been mooted as a response to mass surveillance' 00:42:37 2219 00:43:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:43:38 -!- parkkk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:45:28 Of what kind? 00:45:36 mass 00:46:28 * 00:55:06 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 00:55:06 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:55:07 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 00:55:15 why do people try and install yi 00:55:28 i have seen people honestly think the best way to start writing haskell is to install yi to edit it with 00:56:51 :( 00:57:05 yi is? 00:57:23 Madoka-Kaname: an editor written in haskell 00:58:11 which usually does not build 00:58:33 i mean, they might have heard it's like xmonad 00:58:39 xmonad is good software which works 00:58:39 i built yi once... once 00:58:48 not that using xmonad will help you start writing haskell 00:58:49 I also built yi once once 00:59:29 -!- augur has joined. 01:03:33 elliott, i mean a lot of haskell beginners are True Believers who want to purge their life of everything non-Haskell 01:03:58 are you sure i mean i'm not disbelieving you necessarily but i've never got that impression from anyone 01:04:03 maybe the xmonad adoption a bit 01:04:22 the same people usually talk about writing an operating system in Haskell, without necessarily understanding what an OS is 01:05:07 ok well i've never heard that :P 01:05:33 if only there were more people who _do_ know what an OS is who wanted to write them in functional languages 01:05:34 like the Linux kernel is 10 million lines of code evolved over 20 years but if we used haskell we could rewrite it in 5k lines in a month 01:06:14 i think they're extrapolating from typical beginner experiments -- prime number sieve, toy lisp, etc. 01:06:15 Perhaps if you also replace all hardware with a Reduceron. 01:06:44 they assume the same expressiveness ratio applies to everything 01:07:28 to be fair, most of the 10 MLoC in Linux is support for obscure devices and platforms 01:07:42 and legacy cruft 01:07:58 speaking of OSes -- can I get you to implement @ for me kmc 01:08:15 @ isn't written in Haskell. 01:08:18 @ is written in @ 01:08:21 of course 01:08:23 @ takes 0 lines of code to write in @ 01:08:28 No, it's written in @lang. 01:08:29 Because you already have @ 01:08:38 Also Forth. 01:08:42 It's not written in Forth! 01:09:03 I considered using Forth as a low-level layer at one point, but I couldn't make it cohere with my requirements. 01:09:15 "cohere"? 01:09:23 You could just say "there", you know. 01:09:35 ais523: kick shachaf 01:09:52 elliott: that was actually funny 01:10:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:10:22 doesn't matter 01:10:37 It may have been funny, but it was also intherent. :-( 01:10:55 That's... not a word. 01:11:11 shachaf: {{Block}} 01:11:56 What does that do? 01:12:12 I don't speak mediawikese. 01:12:15 "You have been blocked from editing for violating Wikipedia policy. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest this block by replying here on your talk page by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}}. You may also email the blocking administrator or any administrator from this list instead, or submit a request for unblock to the Unblock Ticket Request System." 01:16:55 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:18:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:18:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:18:56 I found a Haskell package for monoid-transformer; it has Reader and State, both of which are also applicative. I know all applicative can make monoid transformer. Is there any monoid transformer which cannot make applicative? 01:20:15 (There is no Writer transformer, although there certainly can be; it would be just the pair of monoids) 01:22:59 I like that package. 01:23:05 Apart from the Henning. 01:23:21 Henning? 01:23:45 -!- augur has joined. 01:24:02 Henning Thielemann, the author, has a somewhat infamous style in which types are always named "T" and classes are always named "C", intended to be used qualified e.g. State.T, State.put, etc. 01:24:18 Apart from being ugly, this leads to wonderful instance lists that look like: 01:24:19 C T 01:24:19 C T 01:24:20 C T 01:24:20 C T 01:24:29 because Haddock doesn't disambiguate the names (apart from the link destinations). 01:24:46 Should they add commands to Haddock to deal with this? 01:24:57 No, he should just stop doing that. 01:25:07 It's not as if any command would be required; it can know when disambiguation is required automatically. 01:25:16 And probably it would be an improvement. But it wouldn't make the style any less awful. 01:25:25 OK 01:25:28 i think in isolation it's a fine style, but it's not what anyone else does, and the tools don't support it well 01:26:00 it's more common in M L 01:26:02 ML* 01:26:19 It works in ML because ML has a module system. We have a piece of cardboard. 01:26:34 (I also find it less distateful in ML because ".t" is a lot less ugly than ".T"...) 01:28:33 But all of them that they defined, are all the monoid transformer made from a applicative; so instead, can you make up a type: newtype ApMonoid f t = ApMonoid (f t); instance (Applicative f, Monoid t) -> Monoid (ApMonoid f t) where { mempty = ApMonoid $ pure mempty; mappend (ApMonoid x) (ApMonoid y) = ApMonoid $ liftA2 mappend x y; }; 01:29:01 How do you mean, that ML has a module system and we have cardboard? 01:29:25 ML has a powerful module system with functors (not the same as CT/Haskell functors; they're higher-order modules) 01:29:30 Haskell's module system is... significantly less expressive 01:30:34 These blog posts show an example of how Haskell's module system is significantly more limiting: 01:30:35 http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/somewhat-failed-adventure-in-haskell.html 01:30:37 http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/abstraction-continues-i-got-several.html 01:30:38 http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/abstracting-on-suggested-solutions-i.html 01:30:40 http://augustss.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/ocaml-code-again-im-posting-slight.html 01:32:07 yeah, Haskell's module system is much simpler 01:32:13 but I wouldn't say it's bad 01:32:16 admittedly, it works in ML because it's common, and so people know to make tools that understand it 01:32:19 it's good within the scope of what it tries to do 01:32:23 s/admittedly/arguably/ 01:32:36 in Haskell the module system is expected to carry less of the abstractive weight 01:32:50 One thing is that you cannot hide or override class instances in Haskell; and I would like to have those features too 01:33:14 yeah, type classes kind of suck 01:33:28 i think that's "type classes suck" and not "modules suck because they don't let us work around type classes sucking" 01:34:55 We've also seen the rise of PHP, which takes the worse-is-better approach to dazzling new depths, as it were. By and large PHP seems to be making the same progression of mistakes as early Perl did, only slower. 01:35:10 In addition, both hide/override class instances, and a kind for modules, are ideas for my new programming language (called Ibtlfmm currently; if you don't like that name, call it HELLwaPAIN or something else). There is the @ kind which is the kind of program modules, etc. This will solve it too, I think. As well as having macros, that also helps. 01:37:31 I must ask: Who suggested the name HELLwaPAIN? 01:37:50 * bottle (bottle@95.209.60.115.bredband.tre.se) has joined #haskell 01:37:50 Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F 01:38:07 elliott: Someone did, in #haskell channel. 01:38:24 kmc: Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F 01:38:41 Perhaps, we should make up a channel or wiki or repository or whatever we can put all idea of everyone and discussion, to make a complete document. 01:38:54 what 01:39:13 kmc: Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F 01:39:15 hth 01:48:04 I thought elliott was trying to physics and I was sniggering until I read scrollback. 01:48:40 Phantom_Hoover: and now you're laughing out loud? 01:48:50 Now I'm confused. 01:49:03 I'm too sleepy for differential equations (I hate differential equations). 01:50:19 Phantom_Hoover: Consider a mass-damper-spring system. I dont get how the forces in each direction can be equal at any given moment. then how could it move? Like My''+by'+ky=F 01:52:40 that 01:52:42 oh god 01:52:43 that's 01:52:54 a second-order homogeneous differential equation 01:52:59 my second least favourite kind 01:53:21 *second-order homogeneous linear 01:54:01 (My least favourite is second-order nonhomogeneous. I really hate those.) 01:55:52 Phantom_Hoover: I had nonhomogeneous milk once. 01:55:59 But it made me ill. 01:56:12 I think Oleg wrote a paper about that. 01:56:34 Wait, homogenisation doesn't have anything to do with safety, that's pasteurisation. 01:56:38 WHY IS MILK SO COMPLICATED 01:57:31 > fix milk 01:57:34 milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (milk (mil... 01:59:18 elliott: Basically, "programming language" is another word for "syntax". 02:01:22 shachaf: Can you explain people whose attitude to new languages is "is this better than $LANG? Let me prod it incessantly in an attempt to rpove it's not"? 02:01:37 elliott: kmc has a few words to say about that. 02:01:48 But there is some way I was think of, make up a typeclass with no instance, and it is defined in the main module of your program; that way the main module exports the implementation (which can include types) to the other module that uses it. Still that is not quite perfect 02:02:47 shachaf: Oh god. 02:05:35 elliott: "why don't we" 02:05:51 Which means "explain to me in detail what each character of that thing does. 02:05:59 " 02:06:50 "The Person data type now has two parameters. This might be bearable, but imagine a more complicated example where Ops contains 15 types. And every time you add a field with a new type to Person you have to update every single place in the program that mentions the Person type." But can't you use a type synonym? 02:07:17 Why do type synonyms help? 02:07:31 shachaf: Is ^^^^ some kind of four-eyed monstrosity? 02:07:48 zzo38: No, because you need to keep the type parameters along 02:07:54 Person a b c d e ... -> Person a b c d e ... -> ... 02:08:31 elliott: I mean like, type Person = XPerson XString XDouble; 02:08:48 Sure, but the whole point is that you write code polymorphic in that... 02:08:52 Which has to use type variables. 02:11:55 There are no zero parameter type classes in Haskell, either. 02:16:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:16:53 WHY IS MILK SO COMPLICATED 02:16:55 Better question: 02:16:58 Why is milk so disgusting? 02:17:38 milk inspired 100s of soy products 02:18:01 Most of which are almost as disgusting as milk >_> 02:18:10 http://teamsuperforest.org/superforest/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Picture-3.png 02:18:16 class Ops x where { type XString_ x :: *; type XDouble_ x :: *; concatenate_ :: x -> XString_ x -> XString_ x -> XString_ x; xshow_ :: x -> XDouble_ x -> XString_ x; }; type XString = XString_ (); type XDouble = XDouble_ (); concatenate :: Ops () => XString -> XString -> XString; concatenate = concatenate_ (); xshow :: Ops () => XDouble -> XString; xshow = xshow_ (); 02:18:21 RocketJSquirrel: *Why is milk so unfnarftastic? 02:18:36 kmc: HELP 02:18:40 grass ---cow---> milk 02:18:42 kmc: Too much milk!!! 02:18:46 Thank you, that's better. 02:19:02 milk <- cow -< grass 02:19:16 i want some quark with 10% fat 02:19:21 milk ---cow---> grass 02:19:25 The forbidden reaction. 02:19:34 Feed a cow milk and it'll poop grass. 02:19:45 milk ←cow⤙ grass 02:19:57 elliott: "unfnarftastic" 02:19:59 That's a new'n. 02:22:53 Will the code I specified work (if you define the instance only in the main module of the program)? 02:23:35 zzo38: Yes, but it means you cannot use more than one choice of types per program. 02:23:49 So it significantly limits composability and reuse. 02:24:02 Yes I know that there is that problem. 02:25:09 elliott: People who say "ofc" are the devil. 02:25:12 If they allowed you to hide instances in Haskell, you could do it in the other way too. They should make an extension which allows you to hide instances. 02:25:47 And to make default instances which will have a lower priority than other instances. 02:26:57 shachaf: ofc 02:29:01 I think it should be allowed in GHC to have an extension which you can define instances with priorities, and that local instances override imported instances, and that the new instance will be used in imported functions if and only if there are the constraint mentioning that instance in the type of the imported function that you are calling 02:29:18 * #haskell Banlist: Sat Jan 21 19:19:41 gio123!*@* lindbohm.freenode.net 02:29:22 shachaf: Why do I know the name gio123? 02:29:48 isn't he the one who keeps looking for confluence experts 02:29:55 And then add zero-parameter type classes, and now you have it. 02:30:36 kmc: That rings a bell. 02:30:40 How difficult would it be to implement these two things? 02:30:58 kmc: Not a troll though, are they? I didn't realise #haskell ever actually banned unconstructive people. 02:31:20 i don't recall what happened 02:31:27 elliott: gio123 got pretty rude some of the time. 02:31:51 i think my favorite #haskell question ever was 02:31:55 @quote ubuntu.freebsd 02:31:56 NIXDAEMON-COOL says: how to uncompile make into java gcc 3.3 under ubuntu freebsd ?? 02:32:02 :D 02:32:14 after much prodding and language barrier, this person did in fact have a haskell question 02:32:24 that seems like a relative of "How do I patch KDE2 under FreeBSD?" 02:32:48 yeah 02:36:06 Squectangles. 02:36:21 wat 02:36:54 1.21 gigawat 02:37:22 I have previously written about a proposal for instance disambiguation extension, but now I have a much simpler idea. * Instances defined in the current module override instances in imported modules. * Instances can have an optional priority, where higher priority instances override lower ones. * Overriding instances does not affect functions from imported modules unless the instance is mentioned in the constraint of the type signature of that function. 02:37:58 "(Also, this post was an April Fools prank; the effect may or may not be real, and all citations are either irrelevant or fictional.) " 02:38:06 * Sgeo is now slightly humiliate 02:38:07 d 02:39:07 What do you think of this much simpler and more consistent instance disambiguation proposal? 02:39:55 -!- augur has joined. 02:39:56 Actually, I don't know if associated types might mix this up. 02:49:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:54:55 -!- augur has joined. 03:05:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:37 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:06:13 -!- TodPunk has joined. 03:23:17 I have not quite reached 23rd experience level in the Dungeons&Dragons game yet. 03:26:44 -!- augur has joined. 03:27:17 Most annoying thing about American culture in general: the Jew jokes. 03:27:25 They're so utterly baffling if you don't already know. 03:27:36 what's a jew jokes 03:29:05 (This is a general pop culture thing which has bemused me for ages, not any particular American trip thing.) 03:30:12 whee time to reinstall all my haskell packages with profiling 03:31:39 kmc: Why did you install them without in the first place? 03:32:16 because i foolishly installed some of my haskell system from debian 03:32:42 kmc: Debian has -prof packages. 03:32:53 yeah 03:33:43 $ which ghc 03:33:43 /opt/ghc/bin/ghc 03:33:49 * elliott MORE FORWARD-THINKING THAN YOU 03:33:53 * kmc just disables profiling for now 03:33:58 shachaf@carbon:~$ which ghc 03:33:59 /usr/local/bin/ghc 03:34:15 shachaf: WRONG PATH. MY PATH IS BETTER BECAUSE IT'S MY PATH 03:34:29 Are we talking about life here? 03:35:08 Yes. 03:37:24 $ which ghc 03:37:25 /usr/bin/ghc 03:37:27 I win! 03:37:43 ais523: no, that's losing 03:37:49 that's what gave kmc all the Problem 03:37:56 i bet you don't even have 7.4!!! 03:38:08 not like I use it very much anyway 03:38:16 hmm, ./ghc would be the losiest 03:40:08 * Sgeo renames some sort of Esme interpreter to ghc 03:40:30 Although an existing Esme interpreter would be a bit ... 03:41:45 ais523: GHC 7.4 lets you work miracles. 03:41:50 shachaf@carbon:~$ ghci 03:41:58 λ> data Miracle = Miracle 03:41:58 λ> 03:42:03 QED 03:46:39 shachaf: How do you disable the startup messages? 03:47:00 that prompt is obnoxious 03:47:06 elliott; Careful pasting. 03:47:16 I know that answer is disappointing. :-( 03:49:31 I think the monad/comonad that has been called phantom/cophantom and by a few other names, can actually be used with any category that has final/initial objects. 03:50:58 I love how much of stats is just covering up arbitrary constants with someone's name. 03:56:52 Most annoying thing about American culture in general: the Jew jokes. // wut 03:57:18 RocketJSquirrel, the UK doesn't really have a significant Jewish presence in its culture. 03:57:34 No shit. 03:57:48 "Jewish presence" != "Jew jokes" 03:57:54 As such, the jokes in American media go completely over my head. 03:58:37 Oy vey, don't get so verklempt. 03:59:14 * elliott can't figure out whether Phantom_Hoover is talking about jokes originating from Jewish culture or stereotypical nonsense 03:59:24 Yeah, neither can I. 03:59:24 Both. 03:59:42 'cuz jokes originating from Jewish culture are also known as the actually-funny jokes. 04:00:08 BTW what does "verklempt" mean and am I allowed to use it 04:00:23 It is the best-sounding word 04:00:28 elliott: Roughly "distraught", and no, your nose is too small. 04:00:43 Well, not quite distraught ... more ... verklempt ... 04:00:50 Y'know, emotional. 04:01:02 Tired and emotional? 04:01:07 Definitely not tired. 04:01:10 Whoosh. 04:01:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_and_emotional 04:01:33 Hyuk 04:01:43 'cuz jokes originating from Jewish culture are also known as the actually-funny jokes. 04:01:45 "Chiefly not Jewish euphemism" 04:02:05 Even unfunny jokes are less baffling than things that look like jokes but make no sense to you. 04:02:15 Oh shit it's midnight I've gotta go to sleep BAHEE 04:02:34 Who the hell sleeps at midnight?????? RocketJSquirrel that's who. 04:03:28 Ew. 04:03:42 elliott: What do I do if I want to not turn out like RocketJSquirrel? 04:03:50 Okay, first don't be a squirrel. 04:03:56 Second, don't sleep at midnight. 04:04:12 *flying squirrel 04:04:19 wait does RocketJSquirrel use the same american time as m 04:04:22 e 04:04:25 @time Phantom_Hoover 04:04:26 Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Apr 6 04:00:51 04:04:27 @time RocketJSquirrel 04:04:28 Local time for RocketJSquirrel is Fri Apr 6 00:03:53 04:04:34 Phantom_Hoover: YOU REALLY NEED TO FIX THAT CLAWK 04:04:36 @time shachaf 04:04:40 Local time for shachaf is Thu Apr 5 21:04:02 2012 04:04:43 @tachaf 04:04:43 Unknown command, try @list 04:04:56 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 04:04:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:05:04 elliott: HA HA! 04:05:13 I remember when you said that last time. 04:05:32 Me too! 04:07:11 @bless 04:07:11 Unknown command, try @list 04:07:14 @thankyou 04:07:15 you are welcome 04:07:20 WHOA, DUDE 04:07:28 how did it know 04:17:36 whoaaaaaa 04:26:52 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:32:57 kmc: What's your blog thing about global variables to avoid that unsafePerformIO bug? 04:33:24 what about it 04:33:30 you want link? 04:33:34 Yar 04:33:40 Googling is like, 10x more work than asking you 04:33:43 YOU WANT LINK FIVE DOLLAR 04:33:47 http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/11/global-locking-through-stableptr.html 04:34:08 copumpkin: That reminds me, you owe me some dola. 04:34:24 kmc: Thanks. 04:34:37 kmc: Just tortured innocent #haskell member with it after they asked about unsafePerformIO'd IORefs. 04:34:40 God's work. 04:35:07 God Swork. 04:35:32 lals 04:35:39 'swounds 04:35:44 'sblood 04:36:38 elliott, you tortured them by telling them how to work around a nasty compiler bug? 04:38:20 kmc: yes 04:38:44 kmc: they went from "I have to be careful with unsafePerformIO" to "I have to write unportable C code and use the FFI _and_ be careful wit unsafePerformIO" 04:38:45 *with 04:39:12 haha 04:39:19 it's really a shocking bug 04:39:24 given how common the unsafePerformIO global trick is 04:41:44 I should sleep soon. I'll need it tomorrow. 04:42:01 oh? 04:43:04 kmc: A certain... esoteric matter relating to the timely evaporation of blockades. 04:43:35 -!- cheater__ has joined. 04:43:35 watch out for your chi enerchy 04:43:39 * kmc has no idea what elliott is talking about 04:44:17 Is that about those books? 04:45:43 What books? 04:48:52 I have not used unsafePerformIO global trick; I have many alternative ways 04:50:50 One thing I have is the Data.Extensible.Product module and that could be used to store global settings by using (StateT IO) 04:51:20 zzo38: You can also store global settings by using (StateT ... IO) any other way. 04:52:02 shachaf: Yes you can do so. However, if you have a bunch of different module with different global variables, it would be difficult to put them all together 04:53:14 If you want to be able to load/save the global states in files as well, then you can combine it with Data.Extensible.List as well. 04:56:31 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:59:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:59:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:04:35 Actually there are other uses for the Data.Extensible.... stuff too 05:07:06 I changed the traverseBox in Graphics.DVI to use both Applicative and Monad, because I also changed the other thing so that after it accesses the contents of boxes and other nodes that can contain other nodes, the box itself (after it has been modified) is accessed too. 05:09:22 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:09:28 Why is the unsafePerformIO global trick used that often? Can't some optimization and other stuff capable of mixing it up? 05:15:27 Also, do you know any example of a monoid transformer which is not applicative? 05:28:25 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 05:42:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:46:49 -!- augur has joined. 05:50:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:50:54 -!- augur has joined. 05:51:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:51:35 -!- augur has joined. 06:15:33 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:17:47 -!- cheater__ has joined. 06:21:50 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:12:26 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:30:46 00:11 -!- monqy [~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 07:30:51 Ah, monqy. 07:30:55 monqy: hi 07:39:14 hi monqy 08:04:11 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 08:58:29 zzo38: Is dvi-processing better than HPDF? 08:59:42 shachaf: In some ways, probably it is. But in other way, dvi-processing is not complete and lacks some things; later version might improve that. 09:00:39 Hmm. 09:00:47 The main things I don't like about HPDF are: 09:01:02 All the overly complicated and stupid PDF stuff. 09:01:07 The inability to use any TFM font. 09:01:22 The inability to both read and write DVI files (HPDF writes only). 09:01:54 shachaf: OK. 09:02:43 Other things some people might not like about HPDF is the monadic interface; a declarative interface might be preferred. (Even the author of HPDF complained about this, actually) 09:03:01 Oh, and the monadic interface. 09:03:08 I would prefer a declarative interface. 09:06:28 Actually, the traverseBox function in dvi-processing is monadic but that is all. (I have only used it with the writer monad, but you can use it with other monads too, if you have a use for it) 09:07:03 Can I use it with all monads at once? 09:09:08 shachaf: I suppose so, in case of polymorphic functions that use it. 09:18:17 -!- monqy has joined. 09:39:44 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:11:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:42:16 http://olsner.se/marquee.php <-- apparently marquee can crash IE 8. who knew. 10:43:17 poor oerjan and his browser 10:43:28 well "crash", i had to kill the process, which seems to cause it to reload everything in a weird state 10:45:16 oerjan: that page might also involve an infinite iframe recursion 10:45:18 it happened once before, it _looks_ like it makes tabs be distinct processes or something, which they usually aren't. 10:45:48 oerjan: I crashed ie4 with an infinite frameset recursion once 10:45:56 well, more than once 10:46:15 olsner: yes it started rolling and then halted, waiting indefinitely for everything to load, i stopped it at =hundredsomething but the cpu was still pegging 10:46:30 ah, yes,