00:03:28 01:01 5617. KiloByte the Grasshopper (L5 MuWr), slain by a giant newt on D:1 on 2010-01-20, with 265 points after 60641 turns and 0:15:00. 00:03:49 i feel like i'm missing something here 00:06:08 2010 00:06:17 were turns different thing 00:06:18 *then 00:06:23 or was kilobyte just 00:06:25 really fast htne 00:06:26 *then 00:06:47 might be a mummybot or from when there was this bug that screwed up realtime 00:07:00 maybe i'll tv it 00:08:01 monqy: anyway just fixing realtime doesn't explain it!!! 00:08:13 dying to a giant newt on D:1 after 60k turns is still impressive 00:08:54 could have been a killsteal 00:08:56 or suicide 00:09:31 now you're just giving me more options it could be !!! 00:09:34 anyway the log says 00:09:42 You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 1 of its levels. 00:09:43 so 00:09:59 (http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20100120-231230.txt) 00:12:25 Why do you have a centaur attached to your nicke? 00:15:19 ok that log is bizarre 00:18:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:21:53 looks like it was a killsteal 00:36:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:37:49 I’m playing a MfBe and will probably die soon. 00:38:57 Thawl. A gnoll shaman on D:1. 00:39:14 monqy: what's that 00:39:27 01:39 I don't have a page labeled killsteal in my learndb. 00:39:28 it can't exist 00:39:36 oh 00:39:40 anyway im gone 00:39:59 i will 00:40:02 never know ........! 00:40:19 anyway its not the actual 00:40:19 a killsteal is when one thing does the real work of the killing and something else does the final blow, getting the credit 00:40:20 death 00:40:21 im concerned about 00:40:24 oh 00:40:28 anyway im gone 00:40:29 its the spending 60k turns on D:1 00:40:36 mummyscumming 00:40:36 anyway im gone 00:40:37 monqy: oh that? i thought that was too obvious 00:40:40 hi 00:40:41 monqy: are you gone 00:40:44 yes 00:40:56 monqy 00:40:59 are you gone 00:41:05 yes im still gone 00:41:17 monqy: I was under the impression Crawl distributes the experience based on how much work everyone did nowadays. 00:41:33 ion: im talking about monsters killing the player, not the player and his allies 00:41:36 ion: good day 00:41:38 ion: im gone 00:41:39 monqy 00:41:39 ah 00:41:41 i need to know 00:41:43 its important 00:41:44 bonqy 00:41:44 ... 00:41:45 are you gone 00:41:46 am I gone? 00:41:46 yes 00:41:48 ok 00:41:50 but 00:41:51 are you gone 00:42:03 i said i'm gone but actually i'm drinking this hot water 00:42:08 i'll be gone after i finish 00:42:18 drinking hot water is basically like being gone 00:42:22 why is the water hot 00:42:23 yes 00:42:27 enlighten us 00:42:29 because it's actually tea 00:42:31 good day / im gone 00:42:32 ah 00:42:36 why is the tea hot 00:42:43 did it ge tburned 00:42:51 room temperature tea is gross 00:43:13 imo tea should be drunk at 0 K 00:43:13 -!- augur has joined. 00:43:19 you never know what those atoms could do otherwise : / 00:44:20 Agreed. 00:45:22 i think monqy is gone 00:45:36 gonqy 01:02:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:09:31 ^rainbow wobniar^ 01:09:31 wobniar^ 01:09:42 Wobniar sounds like a Pokemon. 01:11:53 ion: Stop playing, I can't decide between watching you and coolrobin. 01:13:33 :-( 01:13:35 Watch both! 01:14:06 ion: That's impossible. 01:15:03 ion: You sure do like Trog. 01:18:29 He likes me, too. 01:19:06 ion: I'm going with coolrobin because you're hugeterm. 01:19:11 ok 01:29:45 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:32:16 -!- yorick has joined. 01:33:30 Hmm. Glaives chop hydra heads off, halberds don’t, right? 01:34:34 No, halberds do, too. 01:43:51 ion: So why did you use correctterm that one game? 01:43:59 Forgot to resize. 01:44:03 :( 01:44:07 You should have kept forgetting. 01:44:30 Honestly, you don't need that many lines of messages. 01:44:48 It’s not about the lines of messages, it’s about the size of the game map. 01:45:09 Right, so chop off a few lines of messages and you'll get something close in 80x24. 01:46:03 ion: You should abandon Trog for Xom. 01:46:08 Good idea. 01:46:11 You'd get good mutations. 01:46:27 Or die, but that's also an option you have now, so you're not losing anything. 01:46:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:51:35 ion: What are you doing still with Trog? 01:51:49 Exploring a labyrinth. 01:52:05 Ditch Trog once you're done with the labyrinth, okay? 01:52:19 I’ll put that into consideration. 01:54:15 ion: By "put that in consideration", you mean "okay", right? 01:54:22 Come on, you're a merfolk. How hard can it be to deal with Xom? 01:54:26 It's not like you're a mummy. 01:57:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:57:16 ion: C'mon. 01:57:19 Ctrl+F xom 01:58:05 Ctrl+F xom 01:58:20 What? 01:58:25 Ctrl+F temple 01:58:41 Ctrl+F temple 01:59:12 Ctrl 01:59:13 + 01:59:13 F 01:59:14 temple 01:59:23 No. 01:59:25 That's not how you spell temple. 01:59:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:00:13 ion: You're stupid and boring. 02:00:23 no u 02:01:22 ^rainbow CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY 02:01:22 CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY 02:02:48 ion: Xom wants to welcome you!!!! 02:02:54 But he can't because you won't visit him. 02:06:32 ion: He's actually crying. 02:06:38 goode 02:07:35 ion: Now he's laughing. 02:07:42 WHATEVER YOU DON'T LI nice ring. 02:07:53 Why are you not wearing it? 02:08:28 ion: Why aren't you wearing that ring. :( 02:08:55 Ah. 02:09:01 I’ll replace the ring of hunger with it when i get a scroll of remove curse. :-) 02:09:03 Nice Robustness. 02:09:17 I got both from the labyrinth. 02:09:56 berk the plant 02:20:37 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:22:20 ion: SWITCH TO XOM 02:27:31 ion: GT GT GT GT 02:28:43 Wow, i didn’t even realize i had this good rF and rC. 02:30:28 ion: See? So there's nothing Xom can do to hurt you. 02:30:43 ion: OK, at least promise me you'll switch to Xom for the orb run if you get that far. 02:31:38 ion: Trog's wrath won't even bother you with that kind of timescale. 02:33:19 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:34:05 ion: Ping me when you enter a branch or anything interesting happens. 02:34:23 (So I can yell at you to convert to Xom.) 02:50:56 -!- augur has joined. 02:52:23 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:52:30 -!- augur has joined. 03:08:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:10:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:29:29 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:30:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:34:25 -!- Gregor has quit (Excess Flood). 03:45:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:45:25 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:45:34 -!- asiekierka has joined. 03:58:05 2005 04:04:08 ion: So how do you deal with early-game gnolls? :( 04:07:34 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:19:17 -!- MoALTz has joined. 04:32:29 The diamond seem not even one of the characters it uses itself 04:32:57 `quote basically 04:33:01 12) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 85) For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. \ 142) So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. Involving open wounds. I'm going to 04:44:31 `quasically 04:44:33 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quasically: not found 04:45:33 -!- const has quit (Excess Flood). 04:46:43 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 04:52:04 -!- variable has joined. 05:00:09 You can make Writer into Either by: uncurry (flip $ maybe Right (const . Left) . getFirst) . runWriter (but this is not the case of WriterT) 05:00:42 -!- elliottc has changed nick to elliott. 05:02:10 elliott: Depends on what you have. :-) 05:02:18 ion: assume nothing 05:02:19 :p 05:02:26 flee 05:03:38 ion: Polearm. 05:05:16 ion: Stop playing, I'm watching FooTV. :( 05:06:30 06:06 casmith789: did you hear about nethack 4? 05:06:33 GOSSIP 05:11:30 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:11:30 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 05:11:30 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:11:58 Is the dodging skill worth training when wearing heavy armoure? 05:13:23 Gonna do L:8 05:14:12 ion: No, it's not. 05:14:13 Or so I hear. 05:14:47 ion: plz resize ur terminal 05:14:54 elliott: r 05:14:59 no *ur* 05:15:01 ion: pls convert to xom 05:15:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:15:09 pls convert to terminal 05:15:12 pls resize xom 05:20:13 06:20 tiles help you recognize monsters without having to check on the right or put yuor cursor over them. plus it adds flavor to the game 05:20:14 oh dear 05:22:40 :-D 05:23:19 Ooh, shoals should be nice since i’m a mf. 05:23:41 WHY AREN'T YOU AXEOME YET 05:23:43 *XOM 05:23:45 Axeome. 05:28:20 ion: Are you dead yet? 05:28:33 Almost 05:28:46 Great. 05:33:24 Rip, Aizul. 05:33:34 " In our hearts as they was in mind " 05:45:29 ion: Are you still playing? 05:45:32 Oh, no. 05:46:13 elliott: Did you hear about my exciting email from Prof. Don Knuth? 05:47:08 ion: Should I sleep? 05:47:27 no 05:47:34 "ionno" 05:47:35 GET IT 05:49:23 What message did you get? Knuth has no email, but I did once print out a message, put it in an envelope including address, give it to someone who was traveling there on business, who then gave it to the secretary of Knuth's office. 05:49:55 zzo38: His secretary (or someone) sent it to me. 05:51:20 But what is it? 05:53:02 He spoke with Ken Thompson and they agree that C89 shouldn't have allowed argc==0. 05:53:36 And various things. 05:55:33 i wonder if there are any security holes caused by executing setuid binaries with argc = 0 05:55:37 I agree too; argc should be positive since it include program name, it is a part of how C works. Except: Sometimes in case main is not a program loaded from some operating system, but instead is the operating system itself or something like that, then you should not try to access argc at all. 05:56:47 kmc: At least in the case of some programs I have written, there aren't any since all such programs intended to be setuid, I always check if it has correct command-line parameters first and the program terminates if it doesn't. 05:56:50 kmc: Unfortunately there isn't really a way to pass data in. 05:57:06 Although it can certainly cause segfaults. Maybe in some cases? 05:57:11 Hmm, you can pass data in in the environment. 05:57:17 yes 05:57:35 which comes right after argv on linux 05:57:37 Maybe something that reads too far into argv can be manipulated. 05:57:55 But it seems suspicious. 05:57:56 i was thinking while (--argc) { ... } 05:58:05 will loop forever if argc=0 05:58:15 and read through the environment array on linux 05:58:19 No it won't. :( 05:58:31 When I write programs intended to sun with setuid, or meant to be called remotely, I am always careful about these things. 05:58:43 while (--argc) is an idiom that appears in several of Knuth's programs. 05:59:21 shachaf: But are they standard user programs? If so, it isn't such an issue. 05:59:44 If they are meant for setuid or remote, then you have to be more careful. 05:59:49 kmc: You infinitist. 06:00:03 well really it's undefined behavior 06:00:37 Either it will eventually wrap around or it will segfault before that happens. 06:00:40 kmc: Even if (argc != 2) { printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); } is undefined behavior. 06:00:59 In fact printf %s with NULL used to segfault on Solaris libc until a few years ago. 06:01:03 glibc checks it, though. 06:01:19 shachaf: I have never done a thing like that; I understand C programming. 06:01:25 shachaf: i wonder why you know that 06:02:19 kmc: Oh, right. 06:02:24 I forgot C doesn't specify signed flow. 06:02:29 (What's a good word for (under|over)flow?) 06:02:49 kmc: Which part? 06:03:15 zzo38: I've done a thing like that, and so have a bunch of other people. 06:03:28 Under the assumption that why would argc ever be < 1? 06:03:36 Instead of printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); I will hardcode the program name (in a macro if necessary), and use fprintf(stderr,...) instead of sending the usage message to stdout, and include a line break. 06:03:59 zzo38: That was just for illustrative purposes. 06:04:08 -_- 06:04:31 zzo38: if (argc != 2) { fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s BLAH\n", argv[0]); } is also UB 06:04:42 *Is* there a good word for (under|over)flow? 06:05:00 Well, yes, it is; but as I was saying I do not like to use argv[0] like that 06:05:05 optiflow 06:05:21 Er. 06:06:06 You can just call it overflow; I would use "underflow" only for stack underflow; but in case you don't like that then use different 06:06:15 secure C programming is easy as long as you don't make any mistakes 06:06:22 kmc: Do you usually bike on "trips"? 06:06:36 i think arithmetic underflow is a kind of arithmetic overflow, broadly speaking 06:06:50 kmc: Yes, it is a kind of arithmetic overflow I agree 06:07:00 shachaf: you mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_diethylamide#.22Bicycle_Day.22 06:07:34 kmc: Yes, like that. 06:07:39 I think you linked to that before once. 06:07:55 I think it was on Apr 19, in fact. 06:08:23 Internet Quiz Engine is a program I have written in C and intend to make safe and secure; I look and am careful, and it probably is; but if you find something wrong with it then feel free to notify me (try to exploit it first if you want, as long as you cause no damage by doing so) 06:08:43 kmc: What's your long Julytrip going to be? 06:08:52 kmc is all about the drugs. And trains. 06:09:01 kmc: Have you ever been on a train... on acid? 06:09:09 elliott: no 06:09:21 i took 2C-E for an airplane trip though 06:09:26 Close enough. 06:09:57 I once walked while on ibuprofen. 06:09:58 shachaf: I'm (maybe) biking to Bethel, Vermont for Firefly, which is a New England regional Burning Man sort of thing 06:10:05 I'm just that hardcore. 06:10:14 or i might get lazy and take the train 06:10:34 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:10:40 it's like 150 miles, probably in 3 days 06:10:45 2C-E is really not a catchy name. 06:10:50 yeah 06:10:51 They need to work on their marketing. 06:11:06 i don't think it has even been popular enough to get a street name 06:11:09 Drugs are totally ready for a disruptive startup. 06:11:19 Just need some of that Y Combinator funding. 06:11:36 Also insert Haskell joke. 06:11:53 how about genetically engineered E. coli which produce psilocybin 06:11:58 that would be disruptive 06:12:21 "Any street name is doomed to failure since 2C-E is simply not that distinctive for the majority of users." 06:12:34 Quick, startup joke... uhh... 06:12:42 i think it is pretty hard to distinguish the 5HT agonists, honestly 06:12:56 everyone has their own pet theory about how shrooms are more foo and acid is more bar, but they don't really match up 06:12:59 (I wonder if I'm on some kind of watchlist for that search.) 06:13:06 (I hope so.) 06:13:22 i think many people could tell them apart in a double-blind test, but their criteria for doing so will not be transferrable 06:13:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:14:22 Oh, I was going to sleep, wasn't I. 06:14:34 NO 06:14:38 YOU WEREN'T 06:14:50 Do you like the Internet Quiz Engine? Do you believe it is not a security breach? 06:15:02 kmc: :( 06:15:16 But if I don't sleep now, I'll sleep later. And probably not a later enough later to not wake up when it's dark or getting it. 06:15:17 interquiz net engine 06:15:43 kmc: I meant the other one. 06:16:13 I think "Do you believe it is not a security breach?" is a question that can only be prompted by something that demonstrates "it" is probably a security breach. 06:16:15 Or something. 06:17:46 Well, there is no such demonstration I know of at this time, but it is written in C and the source-codes is available to public, and it can be accessed remotely. 06:19:07 Hmm, Programming in the 21st Century seems to be devolving into self-reference a bit. 06:23:42 zzo38: Should I sleep. :( 06:24:00 elliott: Are you tired? Is it dark? 06:24:12 Yes and no. 06:24:18 It was dark but then it stopped being dark and got light again. 06:24:34 Sleep if you like to do so, please. 06:24:42 elliott: what is it 06:24:58 kmc: The, uh, sky, I guess. 06:25:48 imeant Programming in the 21st Century 06:25:52 Oh. 06:26:04 oh that blog 06:26:06 http://prog21.dadgum.com/. It's a pretty good blog. 06:26:17 Not as good as http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/, though! 06:27:45 whowrites arcanesentiment?? 06:30:06 prog21 claims to be a "super technical programming blog" but i just flipped through a half dozen articles and saw about 3 lines of code total 06:30:18 Where does it claim that? 06:30:23 http://prog21.dadgum.com/137.html 06:30:53 I think that's more than a little joking. It was more code-focused a while ago, anyway. 06:30:58 (By "a while" I mean "a few years".) 06:31:03 Perhaps the author has got a different "super technical programming blog"! 06:31:14 also here's yet another person who thinks the entire and sole point of Haskell is to never use state 06:31:25 (mainly in re the latest article) 06:31:48 That's unfair. 06:32:07 He's not exactly inexperienced with functional languages. 06:32:11 i know 06:32:13 Then they should learn! 06:32:37 Anyway, if you're using state, then it's only tenuously "functional programming" in the "declarative programming" sense most people use it to mean. 06:32:45 Whether it's Haskell is another matter entirely, of course. 06:33:05 ("State" here used as an abbreviation for "mutable state in the usual imperative manner".) 06:33:24 yeah 06:33:58 it's a common fallacy; this article is not an especially strong instance 06:33:59 You can use state, and a bunch of other things, by using the correct computable mathematical representation of such things. And, isn't there some commands in Haskell to make these imperative kind of state in IO monad? 06:34:00 "functional programming" doesn't mean much. 06:34:18 (Alternatively, means too much.) 06:34:28 means too many different things 06:34:31 One of my new goals on the Internet is to avoid arguments that are about words. 06:34:41 Unless they're explicitly about words, maybe. 06:34:41 aren't all arguments about words? 06:34:55 By that definition, everything is a "correct computable mathematical representation". 06:35:02 No, some arguments just use them. 06:35:03 C is a correct computable mathematical representation because you can model it formally. 06:35:06 Sounds elegant. 06:35:12 Selegant. 06:36:15 * kmc has a super technical programming blog 06:36:35 kmc: Arguments which stem from unshared definitions or axioms are probably rarely fruitful. 06:37:10 Definition disagreements are reasonably easy to overcome if someone notices and clarifies things. 06:37:23 * elliott is a super technical programming blog. 06:37:50 If two people have unshared axioms then an argument about theorems resulting from those axioms is mostly pointless. 06:38:11 unless they explicitly acknowledge it, and are trying to justify their respective axioms informally 06:38:20 http://ehird.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html -- is this super technical enough? (Okay, I never made any other posts to that thing. And also I broke the code before posting it because I didn't understand why "instance (C a) => D a" wouldn't work.) 06:38:27 I heard a rumour that a tradition in Indian philosophy is to say "these are my axioms; OK, these are your axioms; for the purpose of this argument let's just use the intersection" 06:38:59 That sounds too reasonable to be true, though. :-) 06:39:02 kmc: Not every argument is about words. Some are about irreconcilable differences in value systems. 06:39:12 I suppose you can make those to be arguments about words, too. (Such as the definition of "good".) 06:39:44 You can *make* nearly any argument be about words. 06:39:50 This is the art of "politics". 06:39:57 what 06:40:00 also it's pretty cheeky for him to claim to be on "the cutting edge of functional programming research" 06:40:02 I can't work out whether elliott's /ignore is on the IRC level or on the elliott level. 06:40:18 kmc: Didn't you hear? "cutting edge" is the old "mainstream". 06:40:25 kmc: Yes, cheeky, as in the position of his tongue when writing that. 06:40:28 You have to be on at least the "bleeding edge" to be worth anything. 06:40:33 You're taking him way too seriously. :p 06:40:56 sure it's tongue in cheek, but implicit in that joke is the assertion that actual published FP research is worthless 06:41:11 You should test it at first before writing the report. 06:41:21 kmc: Did you hear how the number of unordered n-tuples of elements of k is (n + k - 1) choose k? 06:41:28 Oh, I guess I did mention that while you were here. 06:41:43 "look at this shit essay i wrote, and it's super popular now, I guess that invalidates everyone else working in this field" 06:41:45 I don't think that's necessarily true; I think he was commenting more on the prominence of what he wrote in searches for the same thing, which had artificially made him resemble an authority. (But this is a silly thing to argue about.) 06:42:55 I haven't used Icon. Maybe I should use Icon. 06:43:41 "But any language that can implement its own interpreter isn't total!" Hmm, that sounds too vague to be strictly true. 06:45:03 kmc: Have you used Icon? 06:47:47 (Hey, does that statement correspond to Goedel's theorem?) 06:47:59 (And is the vagueness fixed by requiring the same things it does?) 06:49:07 i haven't 06:49:10 Should I sleep. :( 06:49:50 no 06:50:06 go to sleep elliott 06:50:10 kmc: Why. :( 06:50:18 Yes at least to me it does seem like Goedel's theorem, too 06:50:55 i think i agree with the prog21 guy more often than not 06:51:05 i've linked a lot of people to "Advice for aimless excited programmers" 06:51:13 zzo38: Yes, I think it does. You want to construct the program P = interpret(encoding of P). 06:51:20 And that gets you _|_. 06:51:39 and i've frequently ranted about how "Let's reimplement all existing software, but in Haskell!" is dumb 06:51:56 kmc: It's exceptionally dumb. They should do it in @lang intsead. 06:51:58 *insetad. 06:52:00 *fuck. 06:52:01 yeah 06:52:11 extern "Haskell" { ... } 06:52:21 Ew. 06:52:24 @lang can't talk to Haskell. 06:52:24 pong 06:52:33 shachaf: did you know that GCC has extern "Java" { ... } 06:52:43 kmc: Yes. 06:52:58 kmc: Shouldn't I sleep? 06:53:04 elliott: Nein. 06:53:11 elliott: you should sleep 06:53:13 You should implement extern "@lang" { ... } 06:53:27 No. 06:53:29 Nothing can talk to @lang. 06:53:34 Come on. 06:53:37 It's pure. 06:53:50 elliott: then how will i write a video game?? 06:53:54 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:53:55 checkmate atheists 06:54:07 How is the computer going to do anything if the nothing can talk to the @lang? 06:54:10 kmc: divine intervention 06:54:16 I'd use a device with a crappy UI if I understand the UI because I made it 06:54:20 :/ 06:54:20 are there any ahead-of-time native compilers for C# 06:54:22 There must somehow be some command to do so. 06:54:39 zzo38: It will mumble to an x86-64 computer if it has to. 06:54:42 Even if it is only the other way! 06:54:48 But it will refuse to rise to the level of "talking". 06:55:08 Also it'll be really rude about it, should I sleep. 06:55:53 Sgeo: Should I sleep. 06:56:30 it's weird that there are no high-level "mainstream" languages with AOT native compilers 06:56:45 AOT native compilers are sort of horrible to use. 06:56:55 kmc: There's gcj, isn't there? 06:57:04 kmc: Does D count as: high-level; "mainstream"? 06:57:05 yeah 06:57:08 Admittedly that's not a mainstream compiler. 06:57:11 maybe i should have put "mainstream" on "compilers" as well 06:57:15 If so, checkmate Pythonistas. 06:57:15 i don't think D is mainstream 06:57:20 (...It had to sound similar.) 06:57:25 kmc: It's in TIOBE!!!! 06:57:31 omg tiobe 06:57:41 TIOBE, also known for: absolutely fucking nothing else. 06:57:44 The Index Of Bad Estimates 06:57:50 *nothing fucking, perhaps. 06:57:50 burn 06:58:06 LOOKING FURTHER AT THE TIOBE INDEX (this is my catchphrase), Lisp sort of counts. 06:58:09 Also... Logo? 06:58:20 They think Logo is the 19th most popular programming language. 06:58:22 maybe COBOL is high level 06:58:27 nobody my age knows anything about COBOL 06:58:28 I'm... not sure what's up with that. 06:58:47 Probably a bunch of false matches for the word "logo". 06:58:54 What the fuck is NXT-G? 06:58:59 Oh. 06:58:59 kmc: Does Algol 68 count as mainstream and/or high-level? 06:59:00 Lego. 06:59:09 Apparently that's the 20th most popular programming language! 06:59:09 shachaf: I guess so 06:59:22 maybe Vala counts as both 06:59:25 Algol 68 counts as "mainstream"? 06:59:34 It was at one point at least. 06:59:40 It was? 06:59:47 My understanding was that nobody used Algol 68. 06:59:51 I have an Algol 68 interpreter installed on my machine. 06:59:53 Because it's complicated as shit. 07:00:00 It's a weird language. 07:00:01 Vala is used to write desktop apps, which we all know is the criterion for language success 07:00:02 "ALGOL 68 is substantially different from Algol 60 and was criticised partially for being so, so that in general "Algol" refers to dialects of Algol 60." 07:00:14 Oh, sure 'nough. 07:00:41 * shachaf wonders whether there can be such a thing as cynicism overflow. 07:00:41 There's a fork of the GNOME note-taking application Tomboy that tries to be completely identical in every way except it's written in C++ rather than C#. 07:00:43 Because Mono. 07:00:50 Perhaps we can figure out a way to exploit kmc. 07:00:54 Haskell might be used in financial analysis and bioinformatics and NSA cryptography, but it won't truly be mainstream until someone uses it to write a GTK+ app for downloading cat pictures 07:01:06 actually ManateeLazyCat probably did that already 07:01:08 I'm sure manatee can do that WHY THE FUCK AM I AWAKE 07:01:11 snap 07:01:13 :) 07:01:32 i always thought haskell isn't and shouldn't be a "mainstream" language 07:01:35 pikhq: "Should I sleep." 07:01:36 Oh, I mentioned Algol 68 and then elliott mentioned it. 07:01:37 but rather a language of many interesting niches 07:01:41 elliott: What time is it? 07:01:45 I guess elliott is reading my messages, just not replying. 07:01:45 And when did you wake? 07:01:46 @time pikhq 07:01:48 Local time for pikhq is Wed May 9 01:01:46 2012 07:01:52 @time elliott 07:01:52 Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:01:52 +0000 07:01:53 I mean. 07:01:58 (I'm in BST.) 07:02:04 When did you wake? 07:02:12 Like 19:00. :( 07:02:33 That seem to be late for wake up!! 07:02:41 :'( 07:02:45 elliott: Only 12 hours awake, then? 07:03:02 I don't know, that's too much arithmetic for how tired I am. 07:03:20 ... You tired shouldn't be. 07:03:29 Well, I didn't sleep much. 07:03:51 shachaf: hey, i'm not *only* a cynic 07:03:56 kmc: You aren't? 07:04:22 Not *only* a cynic. A cynic with a super technical programming blog. 07:04:26 There's a difference! 07:04:26 Some other programming language not used anymore is BLISS (there is a lack of modern implementation); C became common. Although, I (and some others too) think some ideas of BLISS are better designed than C. (LLVM is also better designed than C) 07:04:28 right 07:04:51 "LLVM is better than C" is my favourite zzo38 opinion. 07:05:16 depends what you're using it for 07:05:23 Programming. 07:05:25 ghc backend 07:05:31 (Not just compiling to.) 07:05:43 Why would you write actual code in C? 07:06:04 i still think C is a pretty good language in its niche 07:06:16 Its niche being "languages that are C"? 07:06:28 HEY SHOULD I SLEEP 07:06:29 but it's not "close to the machine" or "a portable assembler" 07:06:34 pikhq never even answered me. :( 07:06:34 elliott: Well, LLVM does lack macros and so on; but if we can make something that has some features of BLISS and also all the LLVM commands, and then translates everything that isn't direct LLVM command into the LLVM commands, and then it will compile; would be good idea. 07:06:46 shachaf: who's the cynic now :( 07:06:46 elliott: I vote "not unless you're tired". 07:06:55 kmc: it's a portable PDP assembler, which doesn't contradict anything you said :P 07:07:04 I miss real CISCs. (note: I've never used a real CISC) 07:07:09 pikhq: I am :'( 07:07:27 pikhq: Should've voted: "iff you're tired" 07:07:32 kmc: C is, I suppose, pretty good language in its niche, but it has some bad designs 07:07:36 yes 07:07:47 It continues to bother me that people think C is "close to the machine". It's not all that close to x86 ASM, which itself is pretty abstracted from the hardware. 07:07:49 also by "C" i mean C99 with a variety of GNU extensions 07:08:03 pikhq: So is that yes if you are tired? 07:08:07 elliott: Yes. 07:08:10 Once it was easy to tell what C's bad designs were. 07:08:12 What's 8+8. 07:08:17 And the idea that it's "portable assembler" makes for some astonishingly bad C. 07:08:17 But then I forbade de signs of the bad designs 07:08:20 elliott: 16 07:08:20 (I know, it's 17.) 07:08:21 pikhq: well I think "close to the abstraction presented by the hardware" is a valid meaning of "close to the machine" 07:08:25 so i try to reserve judgement 07:08:36 but yes many people are misinformed here, and it bothers me 07:08:39 elliott: I bet I'm more tired than you. 07:08:41 @time shachaf 07:08:42 @time elliott 07:08:43 Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:08:43 +0000 07:08:47 Local time for shachaf is Wed May 9 00:08:41 2012 07:08:47 QED 07:08:51 C isn't particularly close to the absraction presented by the hardware, either 07:08:52 kmc: You would have fit in here great a few years ago when I was complaining about all the same things. 07:08:58 kmc: 'Cept it's not *that* close to x86. 07:09:02 but it's a good deal closer than most languages people use 07:09:05 It should only take you a few months to decide to write an OS. 07:09:10 I mean, memcpy is a single instruction. 07:09:19 C compilers do a lot of fancy non-local optimization 07:09:21 Then some bad things happen though, SORRY THAT'S FATE. 07:09:24 I want a computer that can be programmed in Checkout 07:09:31 elliott: you were complaining about this before it was cool? 07:09:36 kmc: :( 07:09:50 Well, strcpy, sorry. 07:10:05 pikhq: memcpy too, no? 07:10:05 isn't memcpy also? 07:10:13 Oh, bleh. Right. 07:10:18 There's an instruction that decrements ecx and checks if it's 0 or something. 07:10:29 but there's also rep movs 07:10:32 There’s a Portal 2 sale. 07:10:41 hion 07:12:31 The consensus is that I sleep, right? 07:12:33 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:12:51 Yes. 07:12:57 ion: Huh, Portal 2 supports user-made puzzles these days? 07:13:23 shachaf: As of, uh, today. 07:13:42 i guess strcpy is repne movsb 07:13:45 pikhq: Oh. 07:13:57 rep ret 07:14:06 rep nop 07:14:09 All these great instructions. 07:14:22 * kmc <3 those instructions 07:14:25 Alas, those have undefined behavior. 07:14:33 Wow, you're all useless. 07:14:42 pikhq: I'm pretty sure an Intel and/or AMD manual defines the behaviors of those. 07:14:47 there are particular chips which define both 07:14:47 elliott: 寝る方が良い 07:14:57 kmc: I want a disassembler that shows what each instruction actually does! 07:15:01 shachaf: Sweet jesus on a stick. 07:15:03 How to sleep better 07:15:07 intel calls rep nop "pause" but it's encoded as rep nop 07:15:10 shachaf: Apparently something like that, yes. 07:15:22 it's a spin loop hint 07:15:25 The Intel manual has a pretty precise description of each instruction in sort-of pseudocode. 07:15:51 Probably a lot of it could be cut out to fit the context (you know whether you're in long mode and so on). 07:15:53 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian#DEC_VAX 07:15:58 elliott: 日本語で寝られるの 07:16:01 This would be a useful feature of a disassembler program. 07:16:03 Does one exist? 07:16:17 and "rep ret" is a workaround for a bug in some AMD branch predictors 07:16:27 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#AS.2F400 07:16:28 pikhq: Yay, I can read the first three characters of that! 07:16:31 (kmc might like those.) 07:16:32 but the new advice is to use "ret 0" instead 07:16:38 Actually I can read the first two and then make a heuristic guess at the third. 07:16:49 nice 07:16:59 shachaf: The heuristic guess is almost certainly right. :) 07:17:07 pikhq: Yep. 07:17:23 Note to self tomorrow: fix unsigned tempalte on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Turing-complete. 07:17:34 What does "で" mean? 07:17:38 Also correct myself wrt hosted C and CHAR_BIT. 07:17:39 Is it a particle? What's a particle? 07:17:43 Does it mean "in"? 07:17:55 As in "in Japanese"? 07:18:01 shachaf: In this context, yes. 07:18:15 To which question? 07:18:21 I'm going to sleep assholes. 07:18:32 shachaf: Actually, all the ones where "yes" is a sensible answer. 07:18:42 All these assholes are so slept. 07:18:43 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:18:52 "で" is a particle meaning something along the lines of "by means of"... 07:19:24 Hmm, is "ら" a ra? 07:19:28 Yes. 07:19:34 Weird font. 07:19:46 The sentence translates as "You can sleep in Japanese" 07:19:49 And れ is re. 07:19:54 * pikhq nods 07:20:00 rareruno? 07:20:06 Yup. 07:20:09 What does that even mean? 07:20:17 "nihongo de nerareru no" 07:20:33 That big complicated thing is just pronounced "ne"? 07:20:46 japanese-language by-means-of sleep-able explanation 07:20:49 Yes. 07:21:29 So why not just write "ne"? 07:21:35 RIDDLED YOU THERE, DIDN'T I 07:21:56 Perhaps, so that it can be understood 07:22:00 Cause that'd be ね, not 寝. 07:22:12 That is why not just write "ne" 07:22:16 See, so much harder to read. 07:22:27 goode pointe 07:22:45 It has nothing to do with how hard it is to read, but with how hard it is to understand, which is different. 07:22:52 め looks too much like ぬ 07:23:08 I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく. 07:23:28 What does that say? 07:23:37 "Democratic People's Republic of China" 07:23:44 Let's see. 07:23:45 Longest all-kanji phrase I could pull out of my ass. 07:23:48 中 07:24:25 中? 07:24:51 Yes. China is the "middle country" donchano 07:25:14 (they literally thought they were the center of everything so they called themselves that.) 07:25:43 I'm trying to figure out what 中 is. 07:25:45 -!- aloril has joined. 07:25:56 Without looking it up. Too easy, right? 07:26:05 pikhq: To be fair, everyone thought they were the center of everything. 07:26:14 What a pity they were all wrong until America came along! 07:26:17 "Middle", "center". 07:26:33 Should I look at it as mouth-thing + line-thing or something? 07:26:42 That is how it's written, yes. 07:26:48 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 07:26:50 What's the line-thing? 07:26:56 Just a line. 07:27:02 I am even play mahjong. I know it means center, and in Japanese mahjong this tile is called "chun" 07:27:16 Single line going top-to-bottom. 07:27:33 If you write really fast it ends up looking a little bit like ゆ 07:28:17 OK. 07:28:27 00:23 < pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく. 07:28:38 華 looks like it has a bunch of things. 07:28:44 Like a rice-field-thing? 07:28:58 I don't really know. 07:29:11 It's... Weird. 07:29:20 What's 華? 07:29:27 I don't think I ever see it outside of 中華. 07:29:40 Which is pronounced how? 07:29:46 か 07:29:51 I don't even remember the semantics, cause it's basically only there. 07:29:53 I mean 中華 07:29:58 ちゅうか 07:30:31 OK. 07:30:42 人 means "life" or "person" or something like that? 07:30:50 I don't remember. 07:30:56 "Person". 07:31:08 person or human 07:31:09 Also, I did the wrong damned phrase. 07:31:23 It's only 中華人民共和国 07:31:31 Oh. 07:31:33 "People's Republic of China". 07:31:38 They're not officially democratic. 07:31:57 So, 民 07:32:06 "trombone player"? 07:32:08 "People", in the sense of "people's" 07:32:17 I thought we already had "person". 07:32:35 Yup. 07:33:50 So person-people? 07:34:09 Yeah. 07:34:27 人民 is "people's", as used in the names of communist countries. 07:34:56 Hm. 07:35:02 What of 和? 07:35:14 That looks like a thing-thing next to a mouth-thing. 07:35:14 "peaceful"-ish 07:35:40 共和国 cooperative-peaceful-country ish = republic 07:35:54 much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid 07:37:33 strongly typed pointers, unified ram/disk address space, hardware garbage collection 07:37:37 these all sound great 07:38:42 also AIUI the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions 07:38:57 AS/400 sounds fancy. 07:39:43 * shachaf needs to go to sleep. 07:45:26 * shachaf does. 07:47:25 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 07:50:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:53:20 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:53:48 -!- TheConsultant has joined. 07:53:54 hi 07:55:30 -!- TheConsultant has left. 08:06:06 -!- aloril has joined. 08:22:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:19:35 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:07:05 -!- cheater_ has joined. 10:10:15 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:10:15 -!- david_werecat has joined. 10:15:04 -!- davidwerecat has joined. 10:17:42 kmc: the problem with doing all that in hardware is that you're stuck with it. 10:18:56 -!- shubshub has joined. 10:19:08 I have a new idea! 10:19:12 i think we've seen many OSes and langs improve considerably especially because they've been designed for a comparably fairly minimal hardware platform 10:19:14 shubshub: do it 10:19:22 Wanna hear about it? 10:19:32 no i want to download an exe 10:19:39 no exe = i have no time for u 10:19:59 j/k what's your idea? 10:20:10 My idea is to create a language built specifically to make games in batch 10:20:18 batch? 10:20:27 Basically you have a script telling it what to d eg 10:20:28 wat 10:20:42 move sprite to newpos 10:20:51 and it will move 10:21:10 Its Geniusi thought it up in a split second 10:21:33 or sprite do shoot enemy at position x y 10:21:57 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:22:11 if sprite do shoot enemy at x y results miss do sprite do shoot enemy at new position x y 10:22:41 Its going to be so AWESOME! 10:22:56 I shall call it 10:23:10 BatchMove 10:23:29 cheater_: well like i said the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions 10:23:39 and i think you can use those native instructions too 10:24:10 if you specify garbage collection instructions then in the worst case you implement them in software, as now 10:25:31 game start with player at position x y and enemy at position x y and not win 10:26:02 anyway ima go work on this new language wish me luck 10:29:02 kmc: yeah but you also mentioned hardware features 10:29:07 hw gc.. 10:29:25 were typed pointers a hw thing? 10:29:58 that one is probably hard to emulate without hardware support 10:30:10 man, i've spent way too much time reading up on vintage op amps. 10:30:21 haha, why 10:30:23 kmc: you just have a software gc, no? 10:30:27 because i am interested 10:30:36 i'm big on recording equipment and stuff 10:30:50 and i hit a link about the jensen 990 randomly 10:30:58 last time i searched for that stuff i could find nothing 10:31:05 now the web's full of that stuff 10:31:30 $ ls op\ amps/ -1A | wc -l 10:31:30 66 10:31:57 that's mostly just info about 4 different op amps 10:32:08 so that was my last 3 hours 10:32:38 did u kno: the first op amps were just pcb's with components on 'em 10:33:00 -!- shubshub has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:33:06 then they started potting that stuff in resin and calling it an "integrated circuit" 10:33:22 the nice thing about discrete op amps is that they have amazing headroom 10:33:29 and lots of current capability 10:33:39 so they are really good for like, high-end mixers 10:34:22 you can get really low noise too 10:35:07 in the meantime i ended up listening to biosphere - cirque and it totally put me in the zone gathering info about that stuff 10:35:20 that guy's music is fairly hypnotic 10:36:47 hey kmc, do you know of anything in linux that could slow down disk io considerably? 10:37:11 maybe some sort of debug libs or a misconfiguration 10:38:19 i've noticed for some time my pc's disk operation was very slow, but i thought it was just a bit older than usual, but now i started comparing that with network IO and it's much faster when i get data from the network directly, without hdd access 10:38:37 e.g. browser using or not using a local squid instance 10:39:02 it's expected that network IO to a good server over a fast pipe will be faster than a shitty local hard drive 10:39:03 flash videos while it's buffering vs while it's done downloading (the former really ends up skipping around) 10:39:12 this sounds severe though 10:39:25 echo 1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/block_dump 10:39:27 well notice that just a pending download in youtube can slow things down 10:39:34 that will start to spew block layer events to the system log 10:39:38 maybe you see something in there 10:39:46 misconfiguration of the block device can do it too 10:39:53 this is an old ubuntu 10:39:58 check hdparm, maybe dma is disabled or something 10:39:59 i think i started with 8.something 10:40:03 i will 10:40:06 boot a livecd and see if block performance gets better 10:40:13 is there a filemon for linux? 10:40:22 i don't know what filemon is 10:40:37 filemon is a windows thing from sysinternals, shows you all file operations happening on your pc 10:40:43 debugger 10:41:07 i thought maybe linux is doing something like that and reporting it to some api and hogging down because of this 10:41:38 i don't know how to get all file events on linux 10:41:45 how about some file events 10:41:46 you can get them for individual files/directories using inotify 10:41:47 or most file events 10:41:52 hmm 10:41:58 maybe there's some sort of inotify fuckup 10:41:58 oh also check iotop 10:42:04 and see if some program is hogging the IO bandwidth 10:42:19 i'd know that, the hdds would be running constantly 10:42:20 but it's not that 10:42:31 ok 10:42:33 it's like, every time there's file io it has a constant wait time 10:42:47 or constant cpu time 10:43:18 how about IO scheduler settings 10:43:20 cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler 10:43:31 and then i think there are a bunch of tunables 10:43:35 but i don't know what to do with them 10:44:06 example: in gnome press alt-f2 and you get a popup for running a program 10:44:18 i press alt-f2 and while i'm typing it tries to autocomplete or something 10:44:27 and the window freezes for like half a second 10:44:55 however if i quickly type, e.g. nm-applet, and press enter, then it closes the window immediately and starts the program 10:45:32 while doing that i look at iotop but nothing conclusive happens 10:45:59 gnome-panel (which is what spawns the window) shows up at the top of iotop but for a split second and it doesn't bump any summaries 10:46:46 actually the last one was a lie, it does bump "total disk read" but only to like 800 K/s 10:47:09 try killing random parts of gnome until it stops 10:47:09 There's that new blktrace thing for IO tracing. 10:48:21 # hdparm -d /dev/sda4 10:48:21 /dev/sda4: 10:48:21 HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device 10:48:30 # hdparm -d /dev/sda 10:48:30 /dev/sda: 10:48:30 HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device 10:48:54 manual says: -d get/set using_dma flag 10:49:10 -!- shubshub has joined. 10:49:22 "hdparm -i" should show the mode it's using with a *. 10:49:54 I suppose using_dma is some sort of a specific thing for a specific case. 10:51:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:51:19 UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6 10:52:46 hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s, that shouldn't be so bad then 10:52:58 can it be that something in linux is eating cpu while i'm writing to disk? 10:53:32 i'm using gvfs for some things, but of course not for the root (which is what would be written to and read from by all the cases i described) 10:56:54 maybe it's even something in gnome - do e.g. flash or firefox use some sort of gnome api for fs access? 10:57:45 flash would use firefox for fs access 10:57:51 i don't think firefox uses gvfs but it's possible 10:59:00 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: R.I.P). 11:00:41 oh the gvfs thing and the flash/firefox disk access thing were separate ideas 11:00:56 i don't think firefox would be like.. specifically using some sort of gvfs api. 11:02:52 well you said "some sort of gnome api" 11:02:59 yeah you're right 11:04:32 # cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler 11:04:32 noop deadline [cfq] 11:04:56 ok, cfq is the default and is usually sensible 11:05:18 "hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s" < that should've been -t 11:05:47 What's the smallest turing-complete esolang? 11:05:54 And by smallest i mean "least instructions" 11:06:14 one instruction 11:06:19 (without production rules or i/o) 11:06:31 subtract and branch if negative 11:07:38 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subleq 11:08:30 try killing random parts of gnome until it stops < there's not much gnome to kill really, i've got gnome-panel, gdm-simple-slave, gnome-keyring-daemon, gnome-session, polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1, gnome-power-manager, gnome-screensaver, /usr/lib/gnome-disk-utility/gdu-notification-daemon, 11:09:26 why a disk utility needs a daemon is beyond me though 11:14:22 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:14:51 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:18:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:20:06 kmc: do you use gnome 2? 11:20:29 i'm... not really sure 11:20:37 what ubuntu are you on? 11:20:45 the one that's actually debian 11:20:49 debian unstable 11:20:56 i don't have a gnome login session 11:21:01 my preferred amount of gnome is 0 11:21:11 oh 11:21:16 :( 11:21:23 but i like to use certain applications which in turn launch various of those gnome daemons 11:21:37 every so often I will get annoyed and try to disable most of them 11:21:37 yeah i need you to be using gnome-panel though 11:21:48 why 11:21:52 i have no panel or status bar of any kind 11:21:57 because i want someone to strace their gnome-panel 11:22:01 so that i can compair 11:22:12 you should ask #ubuntu 11:22:15 [troll suggestion] 11:22:24 they use gnome 3 11:22:26 which is inferior 11:22:48 not all of them do 11:23:07 tru troll 11:23:21 10.04 LTS desktop is still supported 11:23:21 !trollcoins kmc +20 11:23:29 and was the most recent LTS until like last week 11:23:37 it only gets strong arm support 11:23:50 if you know what i mean 11:23:53 no 11:24:09 kinda like those parents that beat their children because they "love them" 11:24:35 10.04 is that kind of abuse case i guess 11:24:43 right then 11:24:55 i'll troll #gnome 11:27:49 cheater_: what should i do next for mosh 11:29:57 make it use 1 port 11:30:21 also: 32 bit color 11:32:07 Add an audio player 11:33:01 troll suggestion: hidden cmdline switch that engages a plasma visual 11:35:02 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:35:39 screw 32-bit color 11:35:44 double-precision HDR floating point 11:37:33 ++ 11:39:43 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 11:42:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:42:08 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:49:32 -!- itidus22 has joined. 11:52:20 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:56:35 -!- itidus21 has joined. 11:58:41 -!- itidus22 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:36:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:08:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:08:24 -!- nortti has joined. 13:08:50 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:08:54 Yay! Got my system unfucked. ^_^ 13:12:33 what was the fuckage? 13:13:45 kmc: /sbin/init was broken 13:15:03 that'll do it 13:15:10 Happens 13:15:19 how does it happen? 13:15:32 dunno 13:15:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:15:47 I once fixed a server that had an error in a shellscript inside initrd 13:15:56 Or well, busybox itself didn't quite run correctly 13:15:59 Weird, weird boot failures. 13:16:51 Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating 13:17:53 -!- augur has joined. 13:18:53 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:19:02 ...my thing had somehow gotten a busybox that wouldn't work correctly in an early boot environment 13:19:15 It wanted procfs to be mounted to work correctly 13:19:28 Which was one of the things the shellscript it was supposed to run was supposed to do. 13:19:35 So it didn't quite work. 13:21:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:25:29 out of curiosity, which distros were the two of you using 13:42:25 -!- TodPunk has joined. 13:54:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:54:37 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 13:54:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:55:49 Arch Gentoo 13:57:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:03:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:14:49 -!- Gregor has joined. 14:29:10 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:58:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:58:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:13:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:14:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:25:40 -!- esolang_1234 has joined. 15:25:59 Hey... I have an idea for an esolang 15:26:33 but I don't have a wiki account :( 15:26:54 Can someone create it for me? 15:26:59 I' 15:27:08 I'll give the info. 15:33:02 -!- esolang_1234 has left. 15:35:41 -!- esolang_1234 has joined. 15:36:05 I guess I left by accident. 15:36:18 Anyway, i'm leaving anyway. 15:36:31 Does anyone have a BF quine? 15:36:41 -!- esolang_1234 has left ("BF quine?"). 15:47:03 @tell esolang_1234 1) You don't need an account on the wiki to make a page, anonymous editing is allowed. 2) There are no sensitive credentials required to create an account, why not just make one? 15:47:03 Consider it noted. 15:48:09 there should be esolangs named BF and Brainf*ck and Brainf**k, each vastly different from Brainfuck 15:49:02 BF is Befunge ;) 15:50:25 of course 15:52:06 -!- calamari has joined. 15:59:43 i wonder if multitasking increases cases of internet addiction. as drowning in browser tabs can tell us, when men (i simply do not know about women) have the opportunity to multitask they create for themselves task-debt 16:01:03 moreover that one of the fundamental differences between how we do things with a computer and without is probably the multitasking 16:01:32 i like how you assume this is gender dimorphic for no reason 16:01:51 and by "like" i mean "kill all humans" 16:02:02 reason = a lifetime of growing up being told women are better at multitasking 16:02:42 as for the task thing, im wrong about that too of course since multi tasking is about cpu time more than user interface time 16:03:23 and maybe that xerox didn't get a chance to finish these GUI ideas before they got rushed out the gate by apple/microsoft 16:05:49 -!- itidus20 has joined. 16:08:41 -!- itidus22 has joined. 16:08:49 *&^&*$$^%$%^$^% 16:09:14 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:09:42 -!- itidus21 has joined. 16:10:53 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:12:31 looks like you're multitasking itidus21 16:13:30 -!- itidus22 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:20:14 -!- variable has changed nick to trout. 16:26:58 but only 3-way 16:27:23 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:30:33 back 16:31:26 so my concern is not so much with process or application multitasking, but specifically user interface multitasking 16:33:03 although it has it's uses, theres probably better ways it could be done.. i guess unix/linux command line users have already known this a long time 16:34:23 like.. in windows.. i often find myself opening a notepad to transfer a piece of text between two apps 16:34:58 but somehow i imagine on a command line theres just "better" ways such needs are met 16:35:49 and often it's for formatting... like to remove linebreaks when posting in irc. 16:37:55 to make matters worse, with regard to the broswer, each tab having it's own history.. there should really be a tree to map those links 16:38:21 instead of an array of tab histories 16:39:54 -!- nortti has joined. 16:40:17 in general, i don't think it is of much benefit for me to start doing 30 things with computer before i have finished the first 1 16:41:32 you should probably start by making sure it's of benefit for you to do anything at all 16:41:56 (I have decided that it's better for me to do nothing at all, for example) 16:43:21 i don't think anyone else here has any such problem.. so yeah.. if anyone wants to buy deranged ranting services.. you know where to call 16:43:41 but why would i pay when i get it for free? 16:44:35 even snake venom is useful for developing antivenom 16:45:14 -!- elliott has joined. 16:45:20 07:35:54: much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid 16:45:42 yeah, but I suspect it'd have been doomed to slowness with the rest of the "true" CISCs 16:46:01 oh noes, did I miss a discussion about mainframes? 16:46:13 sort of 16:48:46 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:48:58 -!- nortti has joined. 16:50:18 olsner: i will consider that. (those 2 posts) is as good as anything the chinese have ever written. 16:50:51 what 16:51:11 the 2 lines he put before elliott arrived 16:51:18 what about the chinese 16:51:44 well it sounds like the kind of thing they would say in their ancient philosophies 16:52:02 now i didnt word this well 16:52:20 but i actually think the chinese elucidated some of the most concise and minimialist philosophical advice 16:52:45 A student asked Master Yun-Men (A.D. 949) "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Master replied, "Mount Sumeru!" 16:52:47 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 16:53:06 itidus21: stuff like that is what they say in "the ancient philosophies" 16:53:27 hmpf 16:53:28 itidus21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan 16:53:43 ahh koans. 16:53:47 Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand? 16:53:53 ive not really looked into them 16:53:58 does anyone know how to change keyboard config for linux virtual consoles 16:54:06 13:16:51: Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating 16:54:12 and this is why package managers need atomic updates 16:54:14 (*cough* nix) 16:54:48 15:25:59: Hey... I have an idea for an esolang 16:54:48 15:26:33: but I don't have a wiki account :( 16:54:48 15:26:54: Can someone create it for me? 16:54:48 yeah i was trying to remember if Debian did this right or if I've just never interrupted an upgrade this way 16:54:50 15:26:59: I' 16:54:52 15:27:08: I'll give the info. 16:54:53 elliott: How would that have helped? the binary itself was corrupted 16:54:54 lol 16:54:58 kmc: debian doesn't do it right in the general case 16:55:07 nortti: because the power would have cut before the binary would be swapped 16:55:13 which would happen at the very end of the update process, atomically 16:55:31 kmc: but it might have some special hacks for important packages, dunno 16:55:42 I don't know of any package manager than Nix that can update more than one package atomically 16:57:04 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:57:29 olsner: like two hands clapping but half as loud 16:57:30 because there's only one 16:57:33 hope that helps 16:57:39 elliott: thanks 16:57:57 elliott: you cracked the code 16:58:04 we need to get you on the phone to the Pope of China immediately 16:58:11 buddhism is over 16:58:14 yep 16:58:17 checkmate buddha 16:58:30 silly hindus and their koans 16:58:38 ice cream koan 16:58:59 Isn't it ko-AN? 16:59:36 isn't it? 16:59:42 Well, "cone" isn't pronounced ko-AN. 16:59:52 It's COH-nn or something. 17:00:08 Yes, it's pronounced ko-ahn. That's not really enough to ruin the pun. 17:00:27 a good pun is impossible to ruin 17:00:53 Puin. 17:01:49 Shoe-in for a puin. 17:03:04 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:03:33 Gregor: Where's all the economy giraffes? 17:03:55 elliott: No soap, radio! 17:04:19 How dare you. 17:04:47 no soup, no radish 17:09:07 radish sort 17:09:50 bobble sort 17:32:59 Bubble bobble sort 17:33:06 (Best sort) 17:35:40 i already implied that Gregor 17:35:43 mensch Gregor 17:42:47 kmc: look at this great haskell question http://stackoverflow.com/revisions/10521189/1 17:44:00 how can i resist 17:44:25 you've trolled newbies a million times 17:44:40 you don't go for easy things like that any more 17:47:05 elliott: nowhere is it advertised as a haskell question 17:47:10 wrong 17:47:12 take a look at the bottom 17:47:20 they tagged it [haskell] 17:47:38 edited one minute ago by don stewart 17:47:39 haha 17:48:32 i like that it allows the input file to inject arbitrary code 17:48:34 i guess he's back from his hiatus 17:48:40 when are you back from your hiatus kmc 17:48:48 dunno 17:48:58 arbitrary code injection is par for the course in C hacks 17:49:07 but it takes some skill to get it in Python hacks 17:49:43 "Convert it to a while loop. You are hitting recursion limits, basically, so if you remove the recursion, your problem should go away" 17:52:26 -!- nortti has joined. 17:53:36 that's python for you 17:53:54 -!- rszeno has joined. 17:53:54 oh wait 17:53:57 i didn't actually read the code 17:53:59 heh 17:54:09 `welcome rszeno 17:54:17 rszeno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:54:22 -!- qfr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:54:53 -!- qfr has joined. 17:55:13 thank you elliot, alredy read it, this is why i'm here 17:56:49 Good. 17:58:03 -!- Ngevd has joined. 17:58:15 Hellooooooo! 17:58:55 I say the free category is not a forward category transformer any more than the free monoid is a forward monoid transformer, but both are valid backward transformers. 17:59:09 Is it? 17:59:48 Category transformers: monads in disguise 17:59:51 -!- boily has joined. 18:00:36 Ngevd: No, I mean functors, where it is a general functor which can act on any category to a new one, instead of a normal functor which is only from one category to another 18:01:05 zzo38, I'm still less than a novice at category theory. I was making a Transformers pun 18:01:23 (The free monad is also a backward monad transformer, not a forward one) 18:02:32 Ngevd: Then learn, from Wikipedia and so on 18:04:52 -!- itidus20 has joined. 18:08:20 itidus20, want to learn category theory with me? 18:08:46 stop 18:08:55 probably not a good time considering i keep having connection dropouts 18:09:06 stope 18:09:08 tope 18:09:09 topee 18:09:11 opee 18:09:15 opeee 18:09:17 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:09:18 peee 18:09:19 peeee 18:09:21 eeee 18:09:23 eeees 18:09:27 eees 18:09:28 eeest 18:09:30 eest 18:09:32 eesto 18:09:35 esto 18:09:36 estop 18:09:37 stop 18:10:19 i must say i have recently seen videos advising people about the difficulty of getting a math phd.. and i am probably more out of my ballpark than i realize 18:10:34 even though, category theory is 2 innocent words.. both of which i already feel familiar with 18:11:06 Words mean little, they only work in combination 18:11:08 category being.. lets say.. horror movies.. versus romance movies.. theory being 18:11:50 for people like me it's an imagined explanation for something... more formally it means something more formal 18:12:54 -!- augur has joined. 18:13:16 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:13:38 i assume (wrongly) that all i need to know about category theory could be summarized in 2 - 3 neat paragraphs written in simple english. 18:13:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/♦ dafuk 18:14:16 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:♦ 18:14:57 If you don't want a confusing page that breaks the site layout like that, bring it up on the talk page :P 18:16:24 itidus20: If you think so, then see if the Simple English Wikipedia has such an article 18:16:31 -!- Ngevd has joined. 18:16:37 Hello! 18:16:37 i don't think so 18:16:47 i wishfully think so 18:16:59 hgfrtyuiolpo 18:17:05 Then look at the normal Wikipedia 18:17:31 i probably couldn't learn it in 5 years 18:18:30 i havent tested my intellect.. i don't know in practice what i am capable of or not 18:18:42 but then.. 18:18:58 the ability to overcome laziness certainly must help a lot.. and easily discountable 18:20:51 Simply, a category consists of a set of objects, and morphisms, each of which has a source and target. If you have a morphism with source A and target B, and another with source B and target C, they can be composed, and composition is associative. There is also an identity morphism for each object, with the source and target both that object. 18:21:19 That is what it is. Is this OK? 18:21:37 it will shut me up :D 18:21:44 amazing 18:24:37 I didn't know that was possible. 18:25:01 19:24 I have to login there at mantis main_page. My online gaming account does not seem to qualify for this 18:31:14 remotely rebooting machine is a bit strange experience 18:31:49 Oh, pyralspite finally died. 18:32:04 Or at least, it doesn't respond to pings. 18:32:35 http://sprunge.us/ieMS weird 18:39:46 I don't like Haskell's deleteBy function; whose idea was that? I have replaced them by: deleteF :: MonadLogic m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x; 18:40:55 elliot: is up and running but reject icmp 18:40:59 zzo38: congrats, you have replaced deleteBy with filter . (not .) 18:41:26 rszeno: strange. its httpd is dead too. it's a VPS, so I guess the machine itself is down but their routing is doing something funny 18:41:34 it'll probably disappear soon 18:41:36 elliott: No, it only delete the first one!! 18:41:43 zzo38: oh 18:42:18 (That is what the MonadLogic constraint is for, so that you can tell which one is first; if you don't care then you use MonadPlus, which is what my version of filter uses) 18:43:08 kmc: what's hackin' 18:43:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:49:15 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:49:16 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:52:08 Taneb: Hey, remind me to ask Graue to redirect esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/* to the corresponding esolangs.org archive. 18:52:47 kmc: i thought of your brain feedback device when i saw: http://www.valkee.com/uk/science.html 18:55:19 brain feedback.. well i certainly have some views about such things which would not sit well 18:55:43 itidus20: category theory isn't really a very active field afaik 18:55:45 but naturally that means i am going to go ahead 18:55:59 (think I (are s-expressions (pretty easy to understand))) 18:57:01 the slowness of the muscles of the fingers, and of the eyes scanning text, etc.. provides a buffer to prevent humans being overworked 18:57:24 but.. if the brain is reached directly bypassing the rest.. then the buffer is in danger 18:57:43 oklopol: However, category theory can make a lot of things! (Including, category with one object for a monoid, a thin category of a partial ordering (since they have the same laws), etc) 18:57:46 itidus20: well you've seen all you need to know about categories now, so let's do number theory. 0 is a number and if n is a number then S(n) is a number. 18:57:56 the work required will expand to meet the labour available, and everyone will basically be a lot sadder for it 18:59:01 elliott, I'm too busy trying not to fall asleep 19:00:00 and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?) will be lost.. further removed from potential utopia 19:00:41 Taneb: rip 19:00:49 oklopol: i didn't say i read what zzo said >:) 19:02:06 zzo38: for me at least, category theory is most useful in that you can describe certain ubiquitous phenomena with universal properties. because that is nice. 19:02:50 afk-- 19:03:14 i don't need to say that.. sorry 19:04:56 oklopol: Yes, that is one of the things it does. But it also does a large number of other things. 19:06:47 i don't think the fact that groups, monoids and partial orders can be thought of as categories is very useful for the common working mathematician. 19:07:27 -!- esolang_1234 has joined. 19:08:21 "itidus20 and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?)..." it is true that work makes life easier for people, yes. 19:08:45 if no one worked, there would be nothing to eat. 19:09:09 -!- AnotherTest has left. 19:09:29 hi esolang_1234 19:09:34 hi elliott 19:09:34 esolang_1234: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:09:53 zzo38: btw disclaimer: it is possible that you know more about category theory than me, since i don't know anything about it. 19:10:07 Oh. Ok Gregor. 19:10:11 esolang_1234: I saw your messages in the logs; you can edit the wiki anonymously, you just have to fill out a CAPTCHA 19:10:23 but the registration process is simple (it doesn't require an email or anything) 19:10:27 with category theory, i feel i have to mention this fact, since in all other branches of mathematics, none of you ever compare to my divine excellence. 19:10:33 But I really * Ack(4,3) don't like giving my ip address to the public. 19:10:43 oerjan is just me in a disguise 19:10:47 register an account, then; that doesn't expose your IP to anyone but administrators 19:10:58 I also don't like registering :( 19:11:05 it's just a username and password :p 19:11:07 I know. I don't know why. 19:11:14 esolang_1234: but uh 19:11:16 hate to break it to you but 19:11:19 20:07 esolang_1234 has joined (40d8777d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.216.119.125) 19:11:23 hi, i want to edit your website but i am unwilling to do it in any of the supported ways 19:11:26 I know. 19:11:32 so plz accommodate me specially 19:11:39 Not as many people read the logs, though. 19:11:44 At least I think... 19:11:54 could someone please put that ip on the front page 19:12:04 a few people read the logs regularly... probably slightly less than read recentchanges 19:12:08 oklopol: don't do that 19:12:10 esolang_1234: anyway i'm like you, i understand. 19:12:14 I'll hide the revision if anyone does 19:12:14 Thanks 19:12:27 took me years to make an account, and i don't like using it 19:12:29 Still, I don't have experience editting. 19:12:47 Oh, that reminds me 19:13:00 esolang_1234: a few of the users (mostly me and oerjan) clean up pages formatting-wise after they're created 19:13:02 I still need to define Dilston 19:13:17 Taneb: what's dilston? 19:13:25 elliott: I'm at school, and esolangs.org is blocked 19:13:28 It's a hamlet to the East of Hexham 19:13:33 Suprising, this isn't. 19:13:34 we're blocked from schools? :D 19:13:37 elliott: don't do what btw, say things like that or actually do it? 19:13:39 the wiki is 19:13:40 what does it block us as? 19:13:46 oklopol: don't put the IP on the main page 19:13:48 Let me check. 19:13:59 "unknown" 19:14:05 elliott: do you think i know how to do that? :D 19:14:05 oklopol, also a future esolang that can only be Turing complete if the collatz conjecture is false 19:14:09 conwaylife.com is also blocked. 19:14:11 :( lame, they couldn't even give us a proper reason 19:14:16 esolang_1234, email of the people blocking? 19:14:18 i bet they just block all wikis or someting 19:14:20 They do that for almost everything. 19:14:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:14:39 Hello ais523 19:14:40 hi ais523 19:14:59 Hi ais523 19:14:59 Hang on 19:15:09 hanging 19:15:10 elliott: it's all because brainfuck isn't censored. 19:15:10 esolang_1234, esolangs.org is blocked, but IRC isn't!? 19:15:14 hi people who said hi to me 19:15:21 hi everyone else 19:15:22 hi ais523 19:15:30 oklopol: i'll move the page to b****fuck :) 19:15:43 okay, then i'm sure everything will be fine 19:15:48 ais523: what about the people who neither said hi to you nor didn't? 19:15:55 oh, hmm 19:15:56 Taneb: Yeah. 19:16:03 you phrased it in such a way as to avoid the excluded middle 19:16:03 pah 19:16:10 although, hmm 19:16:10 so i was reading up on ordinals today 19:16:15 that shit is fucked up 19:16:17 esolang_1234, weird 19:16:17 seriously 19:16:23 I guess you could say that there could be elements of S in neither S nor S - T 19:16:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:16:33 esolang_1234, can you upload a screenshot of the "this page is blocked" page? 19:16:36 i was like o__o the whole time 19:16:42 Taneb: it'll probably be a boring standard thing 19:16:48 I doubt anyone's gone out of their way to block esolangs.org specifically 19:16:52 elliott, at least there may be an email 19:16:54 and by that i mean i felt like an inverse skateboard 19:16:56 it's not exactly a massively popular timewasting site... 19:17:00 because it was so absurd 19:17:01 Taneb: they probably consider the block valid 19:17:14 Taneb: No, I don't use file uploading things. 19:17:36 esolang_1234, does the block page list an email address? 19:17:50 No. 19:17:56 At least I don't think so 19:18:13 I remember once the recent pages page of the wiki was blocked in my school 19:18:16 proxy or firewall? 19:18:16 For gambling reasons 19:18:24 We do a lot of gambling on Esolang. 19:18:33 http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff508/Taneb/ohno.png 19:18:37 Good times 19:18:43 Did you call the number? 19:19:01 Yes, the office was closed 19:19:02 Man, remember when the c in Special:Recentchanges was lowercase? 19:19:02 "i bet you $50 the next esolang is a brainfuck derivative" 19:19:10 Good times. 19:20:13 shachaf: Have you been sending me /msgs? 19:20:25 what properties would a language need so that the cost of execution of a program can be calculated 19:20:29 was esolang_1234 going to up a lang or what was this about, i haven't really been reading any of the lines? 19:20:34 total cost 19:20:45 Sort of. 19:20:57 It was based on wires and logic gates. 19:21:01 Now don't take my idea. 19:21:13 esolang_1234, been done at least twice? 19:21:15 :D 19:21:43 Taneb: three times at leadt 19:21:46 does "don't take my idea" imply "and that's it", because it sounds like it 19:21:59 esolang_1234: but that's what one of My Name is Johny, What the F**K?'s designs was basde on too! 19:22:03 you might want to check out WireWorld, btw 19:22:03 Taneb: I don't think so. 19:22:11 which we don't have an article on; what an injustice 19:22:27 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sir._Cut for one 19:22:28 or do you have a CRAZY twist 19:22:31 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o%27_mnain_worb too, perhaps 19:22:34 does your language have ordinals 19:23:01 Well, mines more like (-1,-1)Input (0,0)Xor (1,1)Out (-1,-1)>(0,0) (0,0)>(1,1) 19:23:06 Wait 19:23:10 Change the Xor to not 19:23:17 Finished Portal 1. It was very good but quite short. 19:23:29 And that would be a sort of bitinvertercat 19:24:44 k 19:25:13 Basicly, signals travel on wires, and get input at STDin and output at SDTout 19:25:19 *STD 19:26:16 Not=If no sig, sig Or=If at least one sig, sig And=If all possible sigs, sig (like vNCA) Xor=If sum of sigs is odd, sig 19:26:57 yeah i got it 19:27:03 Probably TC 19:27:24 and if you make a page for it, (IDK if you don't) can you name it LogicWire? 19:27:26 shachaf: Oh, no. 19:27:41 Lol, like anyone would want to make a page for it. 19:28:15 how much do you know about logical circuits? 19:28:30 Not much. Just Xor, and, flipflop... 19:28:33 esolang_1234: why do you think it is TC? 19:28:36 Idk 19:28:42 esolang_1234: does it have any kind of looping? 19:28:43 Random thought. 19:28:48 flip flop is already something 19:28:50 can you write a program that runs forever, for instance? 19:28:58 Each sig affects the logic gates it points too. 19:29:01 esola 19:29:02 elliott: 19:29:05 Yes. 19:29:14 if there's a concept of time, then this is probably tc 19:29:29 Just make a loop with Or gates, and connect one of the wires to STDout. 19:29:35 in the sense that a periodic infinite configuration can do arbitrary computation 19:29:36 OK 19:29:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight stupid sleep cycles). 19:29:47 esolang_1234: is is possible to use unlimited amount of memory 19:29:54 Should be. 19:29:59 ? 19:30:27 Well, I guess you should be able to define unlimited wires. 19:30:50 (0,0)Xor (0,1)And... (0,2)>(3,5)Sig 19:30:56 And so on. 19:31:52 I guess (x,y) defines a gate at x,y 19:31:57 esolang_1234: unlimited as in unbouded storage machine's tape, not as in LBA's tape 19:32:05 Oh. 19:32:09 Hadn't thought about that :( 19:32:17 Well, finite state automaton? 19:32:52 esolang_1234: seems like it 19:33:43 if you allow a way to describe infinite configurations, this will be more interesting though. 19:33:58 Hmm... Possible. 19:34:06 "Crowd of people gathered on a street to watch two criminals being hanged to death, which was like the 19th century equivalent of a reality show (but somehow more tasteful)." 19:34:20 it's not really something that's been explored much 19:34:32 Maybe a "Copy (x,y)...(x,y)>(a,b) 15 Units" 19:34:48 And you might be able to make a TC 19:34:55 I mean TM :P 19:34:56 you mean at runtime? 19:35:45 I don't know. I never thought this would be so confusing. Well, I guess it doesn't have to be TC 19:36:16 see if, once the program has been written, there's a limit on the amount of states where it can be during the run of the program, then you cannot have TCness with most definitions. 19:36:16 And making a copy command will make the interpreter solve the halting problem. 19:37:21 Of course, makeing a build "gate" might make it TC, but it would be TC (too complicated). 19:37:59 because if you can bound the maximal number of states the program can use before you start running it, then you can, algorithmically, decide whether it halts or not (or whether it will behave in a certain way) 19:38:27 i don't really get what you're saying 19:38:35 why would the interpreter need to solve the halting problem? 19:38:38 esolang_1234: how does adding copy command make interpreter solve halting problem? 19:39:22 IDK. I was thinking about mutiple TMs interacting. 19:39:49 okay i was thinking about butterflies when i wrote mine 19:40:07 ...Maybe make a butterfly sim program? 19:40:11 ooh 19:40:21 they are very pretty 19:40:30 but "LogicWire" isn't TC, so its probably not possible. 19:40:59 And you might not be able to see them. Remember the first GoL metacell? 19:41:14 i don't know what logicwire is 19:41:26 might not be able to see what? 19:41:30 My hypothetical lang. 19:41:34 i remember _a_ gol metacell 19:41:44 or rather, i remember that one exists 19:41:46 okay 19:41:48 right 19:41:55 conwaylife.com is blocked, so I can't link it :( 19:42:12 Anyway, I have to leave in a few minutes. 19:42:13 you just did 19:42:24 Not that, the actual page in the wiki :P 19:43:18 well right, i found it 19:43:31 i didn't know about this wiki, should probably look at it :D 19:43:41 500x500 metacell or something 19:43:43 yeah 19:44:15 http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Topology okay this wiki sucks 19:44:16 The only indicator is a block or something. 19:44:32 (topology is the main tool in the study of cellular automata) 19:44:56 and that's not even about the topology that's used 19:45:00 Well, I have to leave. 19:45:04 yes 19:45:07 oklopol: lifewiki is mainly focused on documenting the patterns 19:45:08 *byes 19:45:17 yeah i guessed 19:45:28 still worth taking a glance at 19:45:31 i like patterns 19:46:15 oklopol: Did you see http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Gemini when it came out? 19:46:17 It's quite impressive. 19:46:27 It's a replicator-based spaceship. 19:46:43 (The first replicating pattern constructed; it replicates itself and then deletes the praent.) 19:46:45 *parent 19:47:01 elliott: still, having a topology page like that is like if conservapedia had a page on god that said "God is a concept in theoretical religion theory." 19:47:16 except topology is so much better than god 19:47:31 "God is the sovereign creator and eternal ruler of all things and beings that exist, whether in the physical universe or in the spiritual realm (Heaven). Not only is God the creator and ruler of the things and beings within those two realms, but he is also the creator of the realms themselves. God created the physical universe, and before he acted in this creation, the universe did not exist. Likewise God did with the spiritual realm. 19:47:31 " 19:47:33 Thanks, Conservapedia. 19:47:58 Thonservapedia. 19:48:13 well pretty much what you expected, no? 19:49:11 -!- esolang_1234 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:49:30 that paragraph reads like legal boilerplate 19:50:27 yeah. I still can't believe conservapedia is not a joke 19:50:42 yeah unlike those many other paragraphs on god that mean something 19:50:45 i assume at least large parts of it are 19:51:02 There are really only about six serious editors of Conservapedia. 19:51:24 But they're all sufficiently mad that it's highly likely they consider many satirical edits legitimate. 19:51:40 http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.6902 have you seen this 19:51:42 do they still have the threat to sue anyone who vandalises it? 19:51:47 i thought a lot of it was written by homeschooled christian kids 19:51:52 ais523: I think so, yes. 19:52:01 Did you know Conservapedia disproved relativity as liberal? 19:52:06 oklopol: lolwut 19:52:06 http://conservapedia.com/E%3Dmc² 19:52:08 i love arxiv so much 19:52:14 E=mc² is a meaningless, almost nonsensical, statement that purports to relate all matter to light.[1] In fact, no theory has successfully unified the laws governing mass (i.e., gravity) with the laws governing light (i.e., electromagnetism), and numerous attempts to derive E=mc² in general from first principles have failed.[2] Political pressure, however, has since made it impossible for anyone pursuing an academic career in science 19:52:14 to even question the validity of this nonsensical equation. Simply put, E=mc² is liberal claptrap[3] . 19:52:19 elliott: relativity = moral relativsm 19:52:22 (That's not trolling, most of that was actually written by Schlafly.) 19:52:29 It continues: "Biblical Scientific Foreknowledge predicts that a unified theory of all the laws of physics is impossible, because light and matter were created at different times, in different ways, as described in the Book of Genesis." 19:52:31 the author is not a crackpot btw 19:52:39 See also: http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity 19:52:50 "In Genesis 1:6-8, we are told that one of God's first creations was a firmament in the heavens. This likely refers to the creation of the luminiferous aether." 19:53:28 kmc: "Comments:Please note that the publication date is April 1st 2012" 19:53:40 I wonder if arxiv adds that automatically. 19:54:15 also see keywords. 19:54:27 Really, Conservapedia would be much less entertaining if it was just Fox News: the wiki. 19:54:34 It's far worse than that in reality. 19:54:37 also it's very tastefully done, i liked it 19:54:49 oklopol: Which keywords? 19:54:51 also read conservapedia's articles on evolution, atheism and socialism 19:54:56 in the pdf 19:55:20 in the god article 19:55:43 nortti: No, those are all the boring, tame stuff. 19:56:39 does it at least define atheist as someone who worships the devil 19:57:26 the demon god Atheor 19:57:27 "Atheism, as defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and other philosophy reference works, is the denial of the existence of God.[2][3][4]" *yawn* 19:57:39 anyway I think quoting conservapedia is poor form 19:57:44 trolling by proxy 19:57:45 they're being wrong wrong. 19:58:15 kmc: Most trolls are not nearly as entertaining as Conservapedia. 19:58:28 Especially IRC trolls. I'm upping the standards! 20:00:46 playing with ordinals feels so wrong... and yet somehow so, so right. 20:01:12 http://conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_obesity Okay, I'll give them credit for this title. 20:01:23 Wow, it's 49 sections long. 20:01:23 xD 20:01:35 "Stephen Fry is a homosexual and an atheist." Good caption. 20:02:44 I feel like an outlier 20:03:01 I still don't quite understand their point, though 20:03:16 that's like http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:SIR_448_at_Great_Kills_Station.jpg&oldid=61691747 20:03:35 "Their irrational closed-mindedness against the Bible obstructs the advancement of science ." 20:03:46 kmc: :D 20:04:01 "accurate but does not describe picture" 20:04:39 http://conservapedia.com/Biblical_Scientific_Foreknowledge 20:09:56 http://conservapedia.com/Feminist "often condemn the God-Given order of gender roles, as laid out in the Holy Bible" :D 20:11:04 http://conservapedia.com/Essay:_Penn_Jillette%27s_walrus_slide_vs._thin_Indian_Christian_lady_dancers Nobody tell me what this article is about, I want to enjoy it solely based on the title. 20:12:00 holy shit these guys are retardedaiosdjfoasdjfoasdjfklasdjl;f 20:12:06 i will explode. 20:12:24 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:12:44 Unlike atheists, Christians have a great many songs including dance music. 20:14:05 okay the walrus side article is perhaps the most insane thing i've ever seen. 20:14:06 ever 20:17:14 seriously, that has to be a joke 20:19:11 http://conservapedia.com/Global_warming 20:20:37 hm, http://conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics 20:22:03 rszeno: does that have a conservative bias too? 20:22:36 i was thinking that at least are not so many, :) 20:23:32 ais523: don't you know that there is no conservative bias. Jusl liberal lies and conservative truth!!!!!!111!!!! 20:24:15 http://codepad.org/b2wsEtbA 20:24:26 ^- Would that stand a chance being turing-complete? 20:24:30 remember me about comunist party from my country, small amount of people knowing everything, :) 20:27:22 rszeno: whete do you live? 20:27:51 romania, :) is not communist anymore but it was 20:28:22 imo is no difference between fanatics 20:28:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:28:55 rszeno: I don't undesrtand your sentencw 20:28:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:29:41 i od ndurestnad emth 20:30:32 communist or religious like the ones from conservapedia.com when they are so sure they are right, is only fanatism 20:31:20 rszeno: well actually romania has never been communist. It has only been "communist" (read: dictatorship) 20:31:46 rszeno: you are right 20:33:20 -!- qfr has quit (Changing host). 20:33:20 -!- qfr has joined. 20:34:26 mroman_: It sounds like one-bit-cell brainfuck maps rather directly to the L, U, E, [, ], P, I instructions. (You'd stay in the leftmost branch all the time.) 20:34:38 mroman_: i don't see why it couldn't be possible 20:34:54 mroman_: Oh, I didn't read E properly. But anyway if you can flip from 1 to 0. 20:35:38 oh there was a loop instruction, i thought that was just a stub 20:37:21 -!- elliottasdf has joined. 20:37:27 hi elliottasdf 20:37:33 hi oklopolasdf 20:37:44 i'm not asdf. 20:37:52 only you are asdf. 20:38:36 Don't tell me who is and isn't asdf. 20:38:46 helliottaoeu 20:39:22 i will tell whatever i like whenever i like who is and isn't and when is and when is not someone asdf or not asdf. 20:40:17 oklopol: Fuck you. I'm king of the asdfs. 20:40:26 fuck U 20:40:30 fuck 20:40:31 U 20:40:35 ion: Play Crawl for my amusement. 20:40:44 seriously, dudde, take a fuck and U. 20:40:51 yeah ion it's func 20:41:01 *fun 20:41:17 fizzie: You can flip depending on your location and the value under it, yes. 20:41:56 I’m too tired. 20:42:05 I’ve been awake for 22 hours. 20:42:13 ion: Perfect Crawl-playing mode 20:42:17 *mode. 20:42:18 i've been awake more than 13 20:42:24 -!- jix_ has joined. 20:42:33 I've been awake 6. 20:42:37 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 20:43:05 I've been awake 14 20:43:14 well that's good too, don't believe people if they call you an ass-dancing faggot because you've been awake only 6 20:43:19 hm yes. 20:43:25 -!- elliottasdf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:43:35 would be cool if your memory was just your location 20:43:44 so some kinda stack machine 20:43:46 by setting the left to 1 you can always flip the right. 20:43:55 then again this may be just due to my tree-walking automata fetish 20:44:06 Brainfucks > would probably be then R 20:44:11 and < would be U 20:45:07 Flipping then must be 20:45:39 LEEE to set up left to 1 and not flipping the right. 20:45:44 then E again to actually flip 20:45:45 a two-headed tree automaton can simulate a binary tape which i guess is kind of fun 20:45:48 so LEEEE should work. 20:46:40 so it is one-bit-brainfuck "compatible" yes :( 20:46:56 I don't like languages too easaly compatible to brainfuck variants. 20:47:00 *easily 20:47:01 -!- shachaf has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 20:47:01 -!- jix has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 20:47:04 -!- myndzi has quit (Excess Flood). 20:47:08 so back the drawing board :) 20:47:14 I want something with trees. 20:47:40 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:48:58 -!- derdon has joined. 20:49:12 -!- elliott has joined. 20:49:14 oklopol: Location is memory. That means: The nodes contain no actually data? 20:49:19 *actual 20:49:33 My typo rate is awfully high tonight. 20:50:16 yeah 20:50:29 just a full infinite binary tree 20:50:43 a finite set of states and two heads 20:50:56 two heads? 20:51:07 yeah, otherwise you just have a stack 20:51:19 Yes. 20:51:39 Then you have two stacks? 20:52:01 yeah, which is as good as a tape (although way nicer to program for) 20:52:26 so, LRU (head 0) and lru (head 1) 20:52:43 then again it's enough to have two heads and a unary tree. 20:52:59 unary = 1? 20:53:16 So it's just a comman tape. 20:53:17 yeah 20:53:19 *common 20:53:22 yeah without data 20:53:23 No fun :( 20:53:28 oh. 20:53:39 nested stacks? 20:53:42 "without data" fun is coming back. 20:53:43 so just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine 20:53:48 -!- itidus22 has joined. 20:55:14 but if you have multiple heads on a dataless binary tree with only local interactions, you might get something fun 20:55:56 (my first two-head suggestion was the usual multiheaded automaton where you can read both heads at all times and change a global state based on that info) 20:56:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 20:56:15 (here the local data is just whether you're in a left or a right child) 20:56:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:56:37 `? itidus12 20:56:38 Hm. 20:56:42 itidus12? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:56:50 `? itidus22 20:56:54 itidus22? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:57:05 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 20:57:20 If I have LRU and an H, which creates a new head at the root node. 20:57:21 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:57:23 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:57:26 so 20:57:37 LHR would mean 20:57:44 Head[0]: Left 20:57:53 Head[1]: Right 20:57:58 Head[0]: Right 20:59:00 and some conditional instructions based on the location of the heads. 20:59:39 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:59:46 yeah but then that's just a rather direct n-stacks thing 20:59:46 That might in fact be fun. 21:00:13 Too much Crawl? I interpreted “:c” someone said as “a book, a centaur”. 21:00:36 the heads should be running different programs, and only seeing each other when close enough 21:00:45 or something 21:01:07 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7). 21:01:14 hm. 21:01:16 ic. 21:02:01 -!- elliott has joined. 21:02:14 Ok. 21:03:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:03:45 I have an idea, then. 21:04:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:05:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:08:41 ais523: welcome to washington dc! 21:11:38 -!- trout has quit (Excess Flood). 21:14:04 -!- nortti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:14:12 -!- variable has joined. 21:14:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:15:02 -!- nortti has joined. 21:17:40 Gregor: I forget, did you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue? 21:18:34 Apr 28 11:12:28 " is the best identifier. 21:18:50 ...not that kind of quote identifier. 21:21:40 what kind of quote insentifier then? 21:21:53 Insentifier :D 21:22:00 `quote 21:22:02 Those kinds. 21:22:03 552) game where you flip a coin but it's really really big 21:22:38 -!- variable has quit (Excess Flood). 21:23:40 ais523: happy 5:23 EDT. 21:23:47 `welcome tswett 21:23:49 tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:24:04 tswett: heh, I get amused when I look at the clock and it's a numerically significant time (sometimes 5:23) 21:24:31 ais523: Were you born at 05:23? 21:24:41 I don't know 21:24:52 can't remember, it was so long ago… 21:24:59 don't think I could read then either 21:25:03 So you *might* have been born at 05:23? 21:25:12 -!- variable has joined. 21:25:15 I might have been born at 05:23. 21:25:20 I *am* 05:23. 21:25:21 ais523: you don't have a watch that says DIE every wednesday just after midnight, i assume 21:25:25 I know it was early in the morning. 21:25:35 -!- rvchangue has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:25:38 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:25:45 oerjan: wat 21:25:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:26:00 oerjan: I don't have a wristwatch at all, nor a functioning pocketwatch (and arguably not a nonfunctioning pocketwatch depending on your definition) 21:26:50 elliott: it's basically the first three letters of the weekday for the previous day, in german. 21:27:01 -!- cheater_ has joined. 21:27:08 oerjan: wait, I recall you saying something like this before. 21:27:14 yes, i did. 21:27:32 is this a true story 21:27:37 yes 21:27:56 can i have your watch 21:28:05 right now it says WED. in a few hours it will briefly say MIT. 21:28:19 and no. 21:30:05 the brand is lorus, fwiw. 21:31:04 So why does it show those, exactly? 21:32:36 presumably it has both english and german weekday markings, and every day after midnight it briefly passes over the language you haven't adjusted it for 21:33:35 as it rotates the ring with the markings 21:35:13 Ah. 21:36:58 -!- nortti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:37:53 -!- nortti has joined. 21:38:53 oerjan: are you two hours east of me, then? 21:39:07 or are you just anticipating it to happen at the end of tohour? 21:39:10 one, i assume 21:39:35 anticipating, and it's not _exactly_ at midnight. 21:39:54 and by "briefly", i mean possibly a couple of hours. 21:40:09 @time ais523 21:40:10 Local time for ais523 is Wed May 9 22:40:10 2012 21:40:11 @time oerjan 21:40:11 Local time for oerjan is Wed May 9 23:40:11 2012 21:40:23 I was assuming one too 21:40:24 i see the date number has already started changing 21:40:34 scary 21:40:42 how do clocks work anyway 21:40:53 i think that depends on the clock, elliott 21:41:04 how does depending work 21:41:49 presumably it has a quartz crystal or something, but then translates that into mechanical movement. 21:43:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:32 well, digital clocks work the same way computers do 21:43:38 completely mechanical clocks use gears 21:43:50 but I imagine they're commonly somewhere in between nowadays 21:44:52 it has a battery, at least. 21:45:42 i was assuming it was clockwork for some reason 21:45:44 hmm, do wrist-sundials actually exist? 21:45:54 can you get clockwork watches 21:46:09 elliott: yes, they exist, although I'm not sure how popular they are nowadays 21:46:14 you have to wind them up every now and then 21:46:17 googling just turns up some stupid steampunk crap 21:46:21 ais523: i mean 21:46:23 ones that go on your wrist 21:46:48 elliott: yes 21:46:57 all watches were like that once 21:47:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Wrist_Watch_WWI.jpg wow way to make it fucking impossible to read with a metal thing 21:47:02 they're not so popular nowadays, though 21:47:22 ais523: YES THANK YOU FOR THE HISTORY LESSON but pocket watches were what used to be popular aiui 21:47:39 and i didn't know if anyone made wristwatches before we figured out how to power them with fire 21:47:44 elliott: within my lifetime once 21:47:49 not entirely sure if within yours 21:47:56 once what? 21:48:01 -!- rvchangue has joined. 21:48:09 "all watches were like that once" 21:48:12 well, maybe not /all/ of them 21:48:17 but they were still pretty common when I was young 21:48:17 what, clockwork? 21:48:19 yes 21:48:59 elliott: luckily there are some older people around 21:49:20 40 years ago is the right timeframe for mechanical wristwatches dominating, it seems 21:49:25 I just asked 21:49:50 "Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea." 21:52:21 anyway ais523 is old 21:52:24 not as old as oerjan though 21:52:42 the watches probably weren't available when I was young, come to think of it 21:52:49 which watches 21:52:57 but 40-year-old watches were pretty expensive when new, and also pretty durable 21:53:00 so there are some around 21:53:09 and purely mechanical watches, isn't that what this discussion is about? 21:53:16 ah 21:53:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls having hand-cranked watches at one time 21:54:02 i have a pocket watch and few wirst watches, all mechanical 21:54:48 to be honest i dislike all this digital stuff, :) 21:54:51 pls tell me you use a mechanical typewriter w/ your computer too 21:55:16 i would like, :) 21:56:04 I've seen mechanical typewriters, but never used one 21:56:11 * oerjan had a mechanical typewriter once 21:56:24 I've used a mostly mechanical typewriter that had some electronics in, you typed a line at a time then it printed it out 21:56:32 i start programing with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card, :) 21:56:36 sort-of like typewriter keyboard -> microcontroller -> daisywheel printer 21:56:43 http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/freedom.jpg 21:56:54 rszeno: my parents were programming on punch cards when I was very young, they gave me some (unpunched) ones to play with 21:57:08 If only Babbage had built the Analytical Engine, then rszeno's dream would have been realised. 21:57:39 ais523: You... played with punchcards? 21:57:42 They're not very exciting. 21:57:56 I used to post them through chairs, apparently 21:58:09 very young children are amused by things like that, apparently even if they're me 21:58:26 This explains a lot. 21:58:33 Though I'm not sure what. 21:59:14 elliott: that comment you just made /also/ explains a lot and I'm not sure what 21:59:23 Oh no. 21:59:29 hm, you hate past-elliott, right? 21:59:44 he was an asshole 21:59:50 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client Sucks @$$( http://www.androirc.com )). 22:00:13 He's not nearly as bad as present coppro. 22:00:19 Or President coppro. 22:00:47 O_O 22:00:55 I don't really hate past-ais523 22:00:58 they were pretty naive 22:01:08 but not really hateable 22:01:37 coppro: If you become President, I'm leaving America forever. 22:03:23 coppro: By the way, please make Agora not boring. 22:03:38 elliott: but but 22:04:06 Do it. 22:04:06 Now. 22:04:09 You may enlist ais523 for help. 22:04:31 elliott: but you aren't in America? 22:04:40 you'd have to go there first in order to leave it again 22:04:44 ais523: he'll go to America just so that he can... yeah 22:04:45 * ais523 refuses to travel to the US 22:05:04 ais523: he can even do it in style and get deported 22:05:15 purpose of trip: "deportation" 22:05:19 actually, I dislike international travel a lot, it seems so heavily unnecessary 22:05:27 abroad is depressingly similar to nearby 22:05:28 ais523: by which you mean overseas? 22:05:35 or all international travel? 22:05:40 coppro: I live on an island, there's no distinction 22:05:48 you know what I mean 22:05:55 no I don't 22:06:01 do you include Europe? 22:06:11 I include everywhere non-UK 22:06:14 ok 22:06:18 dislike travelling much even within the UK 22:06:34 colocation is key 22:06:38 I'm happier if I'm within walking distance of home (that is, I /could/ walk it, not necessarily that I actually /do/) 22:06:39 travelling is sometimes needed for colocation 22:06:47 what do you mean by colocation, here? 22:06:57 being in the same place as someone else 22:07:08 isn't that what the Internet's for? 22:08:42 it's not the same 22:08:58 there's a reason conferences generally haven't gone digital 22:09:42 I haven't found it yet 22:09:53 going off to Canada for a conference disrupted my life for several weeks 22:09:53 for starters, you can't chat over dinner 22:10:05 overseas is nasty due to the really large travel time 22:10:20 I couldn't chat there over dinner either, almost bankrupted by the first one 22:10:26 ouch 22:10:27 and then spent most of my mealtimes eating at Subway 22:10:53 I was too moral to claim it on expenses because I would have needed to eat anyway 22:11:56 academic expenses are pretty much all a scam, apart from travel (and accommodation if that's necessary, e.g. when going abroad) 22:15:02 yeah, but the standard is that you get to claim them 22:15:39 yet as a general rule, eating out isn't that much more costly than cooking yourself if you factor the time in 22:16:25 well, I eat "out" at lunch pretty much every day, although it's typically university canteen or supermarket ready meal 22:18:08 yeah 22:19:54 back 22:20:31 -!- davidwerecat has joined. 22:20:35 -!- david_werecat has joined. 22:21:36 ais523: I assign you to cleaning up [[list of ideas]] 22:21:48 elliott: I assign zzo38 to cleaning it up 22:22:00 thanks 22:23:46 I'm tempted to ask for advice on what Star Trek episode me and my gf should watch 22:23:55 (Not enough details in prior statement for actual advice) 22:26:31 ais523: hi, welcome to Asia 22:26:58 Sgeo: there are a few really really infamous ones 22:27:37 Well, full details: She loves the Stargate franchise, but I don't think has seen any Star Trek, so what would appeal to her 22:27:50 Although we're probably going to watch some SG-1 now 22:28:42 wait, Sgeo has an actual girlfriend now? 22:28:54 Yes 22:29:35 same person you were alluding to before, or someone else? 22:30:17 When was the alluding? 22:30:37 I can't remember 22:30:42 `pastlog alluded to 22:31:13 I think it was "alluded-to". 22:31:15 No output. 22:31:16 If it was earlier ago than March, no 22:31:31 `pastlog Sgeo.*alluded to 22:31:44 i think it was years ago 22:31:47 2010-12-21.txt:21:58:59: Sgeo, I assume he assumed it was Alluded To Female. 22:32:02 So no 22:32:05 Sgeo: it was already a meme in december 2010, apparently 22:32:06 and OK 22:32:44 ais523: how is to create javascript in xml??? 22:33:05 elliott: use a JS to XSLT compiler, I guess 22:34:30 ais523: how to enable PHP with ajax and compiling 22:35:37 bleh, can't think of a good and sufficiently facetious answer 22:36:08 ais523: how to develop facebook with visual studio node.js 22:36:27 elliott: first you need to go work at facebook 22:36:39 ok 22:36:44 how to work for facebook 22:37:07 they have competitions every now and then, facebook hacker cup 22:37:11 you can search for it on bing 22:37:25 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:37:27 how to search on bing 22:38:02 how to breathe :( 22:38:38 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:40:08 help 22:41:13 how to receive help 22:43:47 , 22:48:06 how to solve problems 22:48:13 how to do things 22:49:44 how to surprise sheep 22:50:35 show them a wolf 22:50:53 how to ask how to 22:51:01 Oh, elliott already made that joke 22:51:42 how to wolf 22:51:53 sheep 23:00:07 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Quit: Quitting...). 23:01:27 ? 23:01:49 hi 23:01:56 hello 23:02:08 it appers that I quit when I login... 23:02:19 davidwerecat =/= david_werecat 23:03:05 probably that was my shadowbot then 23:03:34 so, how are things today on #esoteric? 23:04:59 #esotericy 23:06:37 even more so than http://esolangs.org/wiki/? ? 23:08:20 ALWAYS 23:15:20 the wiki is nothing like #esoteric 23:16:27 judging by the logs, looks a lot more social in here 23:17:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:18:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:19:44 the logs are all fabricated by Gregor 23:21:43 -!- david_werecat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:22:08 -!- david_werecat has joined. 23:26:34 It's a lot of work fabricating all those logs, but it helps me practice for my erotic fan fictions. 23:26:57 Your erotic fan fictions read like IRC logs? 23:27:39 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:28:53 if erotic fan fiction can be written like IRC, then I might still have some hope... 23:29:28 Everyone knows the money is in erotic fan fiction. 23:29:43 Gregor: P.S. "fictions" reads so awkwardly. 23:29:51 Interestingly "fanfics" doesn't. 23:31:55 -!- rszeno has left. 23:32:00 wait, then where do eroge come in? 23:33:14 I defer to Gregor. He's the expert. 23:33:32 -!- rodgort has joined. 23:34:23 -!- monqy has joined. 23:34:50 He sat, nonchalantly, one finger running unthinkingly but tantalizingly up and down his strong, toned thigh. It wasn't unusual for oklopol to be here, waiting for elliott's arrival, but something was different today. oklopol was not typically nude. 23:35:03 thanks Gregor 23:35:12 * Gregor takes a bow. 23:35:26 i think that line is probably illegal in several countries 23:36:33 oh dear 23:36:33 monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 23:36:36 oh dear 23:36:46 hello monqy 23:37:02 hi 23:37:20 hello monqy 23:37:37 good memos 23:37:39 thanks lots 23:38:09 Does someone stolen your clothing? 23:38:14 yes 23:38:28 monqy: i knew you'd be really sad if you didn't get updated on all the best #esoteric 23:39:16 Do you think this is a correct way? getBlocks n = sortBy (on antispecificness fst) . (>>= \(Declaration x y z) -> (y, z) <$ guard (n == x)); 23:39:42 monqy: are you alive 23:39:57 no 23:40:09 im nothing but a jerk's ghost 23:40:26 but 23:40:28 that's me :'( 23:40:28 monqy: How can you type on computer while dead, then? 23:40:41 teletype 23:41:32 Is it a crime for dead people to act as if still alive? 23:42:20 yes im in ghost jail 23:42:32 me too 23:42:33 OK 23:42:42 monqy: you missed a great tv 23:43:01 someone tried to escape purgy by running up from D:4 and exiting the dungeon 23:43:14 but they died on the upstairs leading out of the dungeon 23:43:37 same outcome, really 23:43:43 Are some of the stairs broken? 23:43:51 s/stairs/steps/ 23:44:04 no purgy just hit them 23:44:08 in ancient crawl you got more points for exiting alive but nowadays it's the same as any other death 23:44:19 monqy: also someone else committed very slow suicide to a killer bee larva! 23:44:20 very 23:44:21 very slow 23:44:30 gotta keep monqy updated 23:44:51 im updated 23:45:19 16:44:19 < CIA-97> elliptic * rfea3bfef4d52 /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Improve felid UC and Fighting apts. 23:45:25 felids "un nefred" 23:45:46 monqy: the joke is that elliptic is playing a felid right now 23:45:54 being a dev reasons 23:46:28 16:46:17 < CIA-97> kilobyte * rabd22f24f12b /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Nerf felid Summ aptitude: +1 -> 0 23:46:32 felids "re nerfreD" 23:46:35 i was just about to quote that 23:47:07 by tomorrow felids will have a completely different set of aptitudes but be no better or worse 23:47:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:51:49 00:51 anyone have thoughts on my jackal sprites? http://i.imgur.com/xxKOi.png 23:52:16 which are old and which are new help 23:52:30 you also missed: that guy defending tiles! 23:53:07 im not even going to pay attention 23:53:15 tiles arguments are awful 23:53:16 no that was ages ago 23:53:19 oh 23:53:29 it didn't even become an argument everyone just snickered