←2012-05-24 2012-05-25 2012-05-26→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:03:35 <itidus21>
00:06:13 <itidus21> Gregor: there probably wasn't room for both, so they made room for WHITE UP POINTING INDEX
00:08:06 <itidus21> also theres WHITE FROWNING FACE but no BLACK FROWNING FACE
00:08:16 <oerjan> lebensraum, as they say
00:09:19 <itidus21> WHITE CLUB SUIT and WHITE SPADE SUIT they had room for
00:15:03 <itidus21> distraction!: http://i.imgur.com/ZgKOb.jpg
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01:02:20 <zzo38> Does the PC speaker driver broken on Linux?
01:03:07 <shachaf> zzo38: It wasn't last time I checked?
01:03:13 <shachaf> ##trains
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01:06:06 <zzo38> I did find that the file "mzx_ascii.chr" from MegaZeux works fine as a Linux console font if the mappings are correct
01:08:47 <zzo38> (On the computer at FreeGeek I have tested this and it does work; now I can work on the mapping files to get it work better)
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01:17:25 <zzo38> I have written some thing on here in past, I thought about discardable functor and commutative applicative, now I also have idempotent applicative.
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01:46:03 <zzo38> Have you played Super Bat Puncher (for NES/Famicom)?
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01:53:06 <itidus21> thats why i like the japanese... thats why i like the NES... thats why i like the word Super
01:53:24 <itidus21> because even though i have no idea what Super Bat Puncher is..
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01:55:22 <zzo38> The game is good quality (especially the secret level) but it is not yet completed being made. You can download a demo, however.
02:01:32 <itidus21> oh then it must be a homebrew thing
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02:04:27 <zzo38> Yes
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03:11:03 <zzo38> What is esoteric song contest?
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04:43:35 <zzo38> Heralds don't pun; they cant.
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04:49:39 <zzo38> Why did they change mathNEWS to make it slower and more confusing?
04:50:17 <zzo38> It makes it difficult to read and understand, and difficult to find the current issue, too
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06:23:44 <zzo38> Free (CoYoneda f) is *always* a monad regardless of what f is
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07:13:31 <zzo38> ?messages
07:13:32 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
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07:49:51 <elliott> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-MICRO-TREX&Category_Code=QW
07:49:52 <elliott> he;lp
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07:54:42 <elliott> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-MICRO-TREX&Category_Code=QW
07:54:44 <elliott> taneb
07:54:45 <elliott> assist
07:54:47 <elliott> assist!!!
07:54:51 <Taneb> Hello
07:54:53 <Taneb> Aaargh
07:55:01 <Taneb> Buy
07:55:50 <elliott> ;_;
07:55:54 <elliott> i cant buy because
07:56:00 <elliott> if i open the page again
07:56:02 <elliott> ill be paralyse
07:56:18 <Taneb> If you give me your address and bank details, I'll buy one for you
07:56:19 <Taneb> :)
07:56:54 <ion> Go and read Guillaume Joseph Hyacinthe Jean-Baptiste Le Gentil de la Galaisière’s biography. :-D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Le_Gentil
07:58:50 <Taneb> elliott, alternate solution: disable images in your browser
07:59:47 <elliott> ion: heh
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08:04:48 <elliott> how to be confused: read http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2197 before http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2196
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08:48:36 <elliott> Two spammers on Esolang today.
08:48:50 <elliott> What gives me satisfaction is that every single time we get spammed, someone had to learn something about esolangs to do it.
08:50:31 * pikhq carpe noctem
08:50:44 <elliott> hi
09:00:52 <kmc> what, do you have an esolang captcha?
09:01:02 <Taneb> Yes, actually
09:01:54 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, what's the captcha?
09:01:57 <Sgeo> Or something could be broken, allowing the spammers to get through without doing the captcha
09:02:12 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Try and edit a page logged out to see :P
09:02:26 <elliott> Sgeo: ConfirmEdit being broken would be pretty hilarious.
09:02:34 <elliott> Sgeo: But no, I know that isn't happening.
09:02:48 <elliott> Web server logs prove it, unless they're using advanced NLP and faking a real browser.
09:02:57 <elliott> Also the spam rate would be much higher if it could also get through automated.
09:04:29 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, that is an evil captcha..
09:04:37 <Madoka-Kaname> Make it better and ask general programming questions
09:04:40 <elliott> How is it evil?
09:04:44 <elliott> (And there are multiple.)
09:05:35 <pikhq> What would be *evil* is gluing "prove P=NP" to a proof verifier.
09:05:56 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: Seriously, I don't get what's evil about it.
09:06:06 <Madoka-Kaname> Trivia questions.
09:06:06 <Madoka-Kaname> XP
09:06:27 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: ...well, so?
09:06:28 <Madoka-Kaname> pikhq, is that for banned people?
09:06:48 <pikhq> "You need to be at least this smart to edit (arrow pointing at Deep Thought)"
09:06:54 <pikhq> Madoka-Kaname: Sure, why not.
09:07:12 <Sgeo> But what if P!=NP
09:07:32 <Sgeo> Prove that either P=NP or P!=NP
09:07:36 <Sgeo> Hmm, I need to rephrase that.
09:07:58 <elliott> Prove either that P=NP, or that P!=NP.
09:08:10 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: You did notice the links, right?
09:08:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Then they don't get to edit.
09:08:15 <pikhq> :)
09:08:39 <Madoka-Kaname> I did
09:08:48 <elliott> *shrug*
09:09:00 <elliott> I don't want an evil CAPTCHA, but I still don't really see how it's evil.
09:09:40 <Madoka-Kaname> I guess
09:09:45 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, no.
09:09:46 <Madoka-Kaname> Evil would be
09:09:49 <Madoka-Kaname> Giving a language sample
09:09:53 <Madoka-Kaname> And asking "what language is this"?
09:10:34 <Madoka-Kaname> Choose between INTERCAL, Brainfuck, Underload, Befunge, ///, and Unlambda
09:11:05 <Taneb> Isn't practically any text with matching square brackets valid brainfuck
09:11:13 <elliott> s/practically //
09:11:37 <Madoka-Kaname> Taneb, I don't mean "valid as"
09:11:39 <Madoka-Kaname> I mean "works as"
09:11:49 <pikhq> Taneb: It *may* hit undefined behavior, but yes.
09:11:57 <pikhq> (namely, walking off the left edge of the tape)
09:12:03 <Taneb> Aw, now I want to write a brainfuck-Underload-///-Befunge polyglot
09:12:12 <elliott> do so
09:12:13 <Madoka-Kaname> The /// part sounds hard
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09:13:16 <Madoka-Kaname> ^bf +.
09:13:24 <zzo38> There is a game on X-BIT called BATGUY, you have to select to pursue on foot, go by car, by helicopter, gun, climb wall, bazooka, send in Robin, or bet money. But everything goes wrong, there is a bomb in the helicopter, you eat the burger too much and cannot drive, trip over the ground, what else....
09:13:42 <Madoka-Kaname> ^ul (test)S
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09:13:48 <zzo38> He sometimes chases the wrong guy
09:13:49 <Madoka-Kaname> Where is the bot?
09:13:50 <Madoka-Kaname> :<
09:15:12 <elliott> fizzie: fungot
09:15:24 <Madoka-Kaname> fizzie, plz fungot
09:18:52 <Taneb> How does Befunge behave on unknown characters?
09:18:59 <elliott> 93 or 98
09:19:03 <Taneb> Both
09:19:07 <elliott> i dunno check
09:19:09 <Taneb> Either
09:19:12 <Taneb> Which is your favourite
09:20:00 <zzo38> Everyone has really bad aim... flying into Superman, blowing up the mayor's car, trip on the boots, the team trying to work together instead just collides and fall down, the ropes break, the engines break, they don't understand that the "R" stands for Reverse not Robin
09:20:47 <Taneb> In 98, they behave like "r"
09:22:45 <zzo38> Why do you keep pointing the bazooka backward?
09:28:26 <Deewiant> Taneb: In 98 they reverse, in 93 it's undefined but canonically they're noöps
09:28:38 <Taneb> I like what 98 does
09:29:00 <Deewiant> (Although I haven't read the '93 spec that closely so maybe it is defined there somewhere.)
09:30:11 -!- fungot has joined.
09:32:25 <fizzie> There "U" go.
09:32:55 <Sgeo> Taneb, I assume you've seen the recent update?
09:33:05 <Taneb> Probably
09:33:20 <Taneb> ^bf_textgen brainfuck
09:34:11 <fizzie> That's not a fungot command.
09:34:12 <fungot> fizzie: it's provably perfect, and i'd need to arrange it so that each new invocation doesn't hammer the log site...
09:34:40 <fizzie> !bf_txtgen brainfuck
09:34:45 <EgoBot> ​100 ++++++++++++++[>+>+++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>>.>++.<-.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.<----. [584]
09:34:51 <Taneb> ...egobot
09:35:34 <fizzie> fungot: It's also not provably perfect, at least if the measure of perfection is program length.
09:35:35 <fungot> fizzie: and what fnord of associative array?' is that?
09:35:56 <fizzie> What fnord of associative array indeed.
09:36:45 <shachaf> elliott: "the expression problem" is annoying. :-(
09:37:01 <elliott> shachaf: Why is it in quotes?
09:37:12 <elliott> 10:32 <fizzie> There "U" go.
09:37:21 <elliott> fizzie: It's made me happy "4" me, so "thx" "go" "2" "u".
09:37:44 <shachaf> elliott: Because that allows me not to take responsibility for the name.
09:37:58 <elliott> I don't think you understand how the use-mention distinction works.
09:38:06 <elliott> "The 'Expression Problem'" would have been correct, though.
09:38:11 <elliott> But you can't include the "the" like that.
09:38:19 <shachaf> Yes I can.
09:38:24 <shachaf> Quotes are way overloaded in English.
09:38:33 <elliott> That's just that which makes that statement which you said incorrect, and that is just that which makes that confusing..
09:38:35 <shachaf> This is a standard and perfectly valid use.
09:38:39 <elliott> s/\.\.$/./
09:38:51 <elliott> shachaf: "The expression problem" does not seem standard at all to me.
09:38:54 <shachaf> I wish they weren't so overloaded, but since they are, I might as well enjoy it.
09:39:01 <elliott> "The 'expression problem'" would have parsed fine.
09:39:12 <shachaf> And, anyway, that's a name.
09:39:26 <shachaf> The *name* of the thing is "the expression problem".
09:39:31 <elliott> No, it's not.
09:39:32 <shachaf> It doesn't deserve a definite article.
09:39:44 <elliott> Proof by Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expression_problem
09:39:45 <shachaf> I ain't gonna give it a definite article.
09:39:53 <shachaf> I'm not quoting Wikipedia.
09:39:55 <elliott> There's your definite article.
09:40:04 <shachaf> @slap elliott
09:40:05 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
09:40:21 <shachaf> The *point* is that it's annoying.
09:40:28 <shachaf> Do you have a solution for it?
09:40:49 <elliott> My position is that it illustrates a fundamental dichotomy between two styles of programming and is inherently (and fairly simply) unsolvable by definition.
09:41:21 <shachaf> I don't care how you solve it. You can use a definition or an example or something else.
09:41:25 <shachaf> I just want it solved. :-(
09:41:28 <elliott> I said it was inherently unsolvable.
09:41:50 <elliott> It's not a problem which can be solved.
09:42:51 <shachaf> Next you'll reduce it to the halting problem.
09:43:24 <elliott> No.
09:43:35 <shachaf> elliott: Rice's theorem is a good theorem.
09:43:39 <elliott> Yes.
09:43:50 <elliott> I can tell you why the expression problem is unsolvable, if you'd like.
09:44:01 * shachaf is tired.
09:44:04 <shachaf> Oh! Tell me.
09:45:07 <elliott> OK, so the basic thing is: You can either define a union type, and write functions by discriminating on each case; this lets you add more behaviour (functions), but not more data (union elements).
09:45:09 <elliott> Or,
09:45:17 <Madoka-Kaname> (>++++++[>+++++++<-]<++++++[>++++++++<-]>->[[.<]>[>]<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<])!(*)S(/*)(~(*)*:S~:^):^
09:45:17 <Madoka-Kaname> Wee
09:45:25 <Madoka-Kaname> Brainfuck / Underload polygot
09:45:29 <elliott> You can define a product type with the implementations of the behaviour as the fields.
09:45:31 <Madoka-Kaname> Now to add in something that isn't trivial
09:45:35 <Madoka-Kaname> Slashes?
09:45:39 <elliott> This lets you add more data, but not more behaviour.
09:46:07 <elliott> You can't do both, because what would it mean to add more data when there is existing behaviour? You would have to specify the result for every single behaviour on your new piece of data.
09:46:20 <elliott> And since the whole point is that new behaviour can be added at will, this isn't possible.
09:46:36 <elliott> And what would it mean to add new behaviour when there is existing data? You would, again, have to supply the behaviour for all the existing data, which is impossible for the same reasons.
09:46:52 <shachaf> I think all you've specified is the problem itself. :-)
09:47:04 <elliott> shachaf: Not really?
09:47:11 <elliott> I described the problem, and then told you why you can't do it.
09:47:21 <Madoka-Kaname> Hmm...
09:47:22 <Madoka-Kaname> Is there
09:47:23 <elliott> shachaf: Consider that the expression problem was first discussed in the context of a purported solution.
09:47:30 <Madoka-Kaname> Even a clean way to make a slashes/Underload polygot?
09:47:43 <elliott> My understanding of that solution is that it is not really a solution at all.
09:47:52 <shachaf> I don't know what that solution is.
09:48:04 <elliott> http://www.daimi.au.dk/~madst/tool/papers/expression.txt
09:48:10 <shachaf> What you described is the thing that one immediately thinks about when one hears about the problem.
09:48:14 <shachaf> And then one gets annoyed.
09:48:28 <elliott> It has a lot of distraction about recompiling and static type-safety and so on.
09:48:33 <elliott> shachaf: I don't get annoyed.
09:48:43 <shachaf> Oh.
09:48:48 <elliott> shachaf: Actually I find it a very enlightening description of the essence of OOP vs. functional programming.
09:49:02 <elliott> And going over the fundamental trade-off is a good way to decide which is appropriate in each case.
09:49:24 <shachaf> Type classes vs. sum types in Haskell are in some sense a similar thing.
09:49:46 <elliott> shachaf: I dislike your bringing of typeclasses into it.
09:49:54 <elliott> I very specifically phrased my description with normal data types.
09:50:07 <elliott> data Behaviour = Behaviour { doThing :: Int -> IO (), zapBangName :: String }
09:50:20 <elliott> data Data = A Int | B String String [FilePath] | C Octagon
09:50:26 <elliott> a :: Int -> Behaviour
09:50:40 <shachaf> Well, OK.
09:50:40 <elliott> a n = Behaviour { doThing = \m -> print (n + m), zapBangName = show n }
09:50:45 <elliott> doThingData :: Data -> Int -> IO ()
09:50:53 <elliott> doThingData (A n) m = print (n + m)
09:50:53 <elliott> and so on.
09:51:15 <elliott> shachaf: It's important to do it this way, because the two approaches are on equal footing; they're both types.
09:51:36 <shachaf> This doesn't have that much to do with OOP, though.
09:51:45 <elliott> I disagree!
09:51:52 <elliott> To me, things like Behaviour are the very essence of OOP.
09:52:11 <elliott> Haskell is great at OOP.
09:53:36 <elliott> shachaf: So what is OOP, if not encoding things as behaviour?
09:53:49 <shachaf> I don't know.
09:53:57 <shachaf> An acronym.
09:54:10 <Taneb> The first three letters of a not-very-good pop song
09:54:17 <shachaf> (There you'll be with your "use-mention distinction" again.)
09:54:31 <elliott> Taneb: What are the other letters?
09:54:44 <Taneb> SIDIDITAGAIN
09:55:07 <shachaf> MR. SIDIDITA GAIN
09:55:22 <shachaf> (That's pronounced "GAÏN".)
09:56:44 * shachaf needs to goto sleep;
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09:59:38 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover
09:59:55 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, I've given up on solving things.
10:00:09 <Taneb> elliott, solve the eurozone crisis
10:00:15 <elliott> Taneb: No.
10:00:22 <Taneb> Then solve the eurovision crisis (i.e., why does the UK suck at it)
10:00:29 <elliott> By "eurozone crisis", do you mean "everywhere crisis"?
10:00:33 <Madoka-Kaname> "We want to make it easy to add either rows or columns."
10:00:34 <zzo38> About some of these kind of things, there is the Typeable class in Haskell which can sometimes help too
10:00:36 <Madoka-Kaname> Isn't the obvious solution...
10:00:45 <Taneb> elliott, slightly, yeah
10:00:47 <Madoka-Kaname> Functional features in an OO language? It's not like the two have any basic conflict.
10:00:59 <elliott> Madoka-Kaname: That only lets you choose which you can add on a case-by-case basis.
10:01:09 <elliott> i.e. for each type.
10:01:20 <elliott> The idea is to be able to add both to any type.
10:01:20 <Taneb> BYOB blends the two in a language aimed at children
10:01:57 <Taneb> (it's what you get when you mix Logo, Lisp, and JavaScript, essentially)
10:02:06 <Madoka-Kaname> and JAVASCRIPT
10:02:07 <Madoka-Kaname> ??
10:02:08 <Madoka-Kaname> o.o
10:02:20 <Taneb> That's where it gets it's OO from.
10:02:23 <Taneb> Prototype based
10:02:34 <Madoka-Kaname> elliott, I see.
10:04:18 <Taneb> zzo38, I was thinking about Prelude.Generalize this morning, which is probably a bad idea
10:05:55 <zzo38> Thinking is a bad idea?
10:08:01 <elliott> Yes.
10:09:27 <zzo38> Taneb: What idea did you think of, about it?
10:09:48 <Taneb> unchurch :: Peanoid a => ((a -> a) -> a -> a) -> a
10:09:56 <Taneb> unchurch f = f succP zeroP
10:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Peanoid?
10:09:58 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:10:31 <zzo38> Taneb: OK
10:12:35 <Taneb> Also; instance Peanoid ((a -> a) -> a -> a) where zeroP = const id; succP = (<*>) (.)
10:13:34 <zzo38> Taneb: OK, maybe
10:14:17 <Taneb> (this makes church a specialization of transPeano, I think)
10:14:26 <nortti> what the fuck!? freenode let my bot in! I love freenode
10:14:37 <Taneb> nortti, you have a bot?
10:14:49 <nortti> fizzie: elisa seems to be no more blocked
10:14:58 <nortti> Taneb: yes. on #esoteric-en
10:15:47 <zzo38> It doesn't seem possible to make it to add rows and columns to any type; but there are ways to do something close for specific purposes, one thing is object-oriented but there are other things too, possibly some things in "extensible-data" package might help in some cases, and maybe other uses of Typeable class such as: data Xyz where { Xyz :: forall x. XyzClass x => x -> Xyz; } deriving Typeable; class Typeable x => XyzClass x where { ... };
10:16:26 <fizzie> nortti: So it seems.
10:18:39 <zzo38> How can it be completely possible in any programming language?
10:19:03 <zzo38> It seems there must be some kind of restriction, either rows, columns, or uses.
10:26:06 <zzo38> I, too, have a unrelated problem: I need to figure out what words to use to lead the chancellor into the trap in the Dungeons&Dragons game.
10:26:56 <Taneb> "Oi! Chancellor! Come in 'ere if you think you're hard enough, matey!"
10:28:28 <zzo38> Best is also if we can get him to reveal where he hid the king, before he arrives.
10:30:44 <fizzie> Maybe the chancellor is Yakra, and the real one is in a chest.
10:31:01 <Taneb> "Oi! Chancellor! We've found you're kingy, he was hidden in a real lame place! Come in here if you think you're hard enough, ya lame no-life!"
10:31:07 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/s8buc/monad_egg_for_chicken_scheme_released/
10:31:08 <zzo38> Yakra?
10:31:16 <Sgeo> Please tell me that Mr. [deleted] is not the author of the egg
10:31:47 <zzo38> Real one of what?
10:32:14 <elliott> i like the part where their monad is a functor
10:33:01 <Sgeo> The linked page looks correct at least, but maybe someone fixed the page... who knows what's with the code
10:33:38 <fizzie> Yakra impersonates the chancellor twice in Chrono Trigger.
10:33:59 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
10:34:59 <Sgeo> I should learn Scheme macros at some point
10:36:33 <fizzie> Ah, but which Scheme macros? Syntax-rules, or syntax-case?
10:36:45 <zzo38> No I think it is the real chancellor but he is a bad person and has done bad things. My intention is make him dead without letting anyone know he is dead, but first require his autograph, so that I can compare his handwriting with the other handwriting. I already found the dummy
10:36:49 <elliott> Or the defmacro-alikes found in many Scheme implementations?
10:36:50 <Sgeo> fizzie, whichever
10:36:52 <elliott> SO MANY MACRO SYSTEMS.
10:37:04 <Sgeo> elliott, thanks for encouraging my decision paralysis :(
10:37:23 <Sgeo> I ... think I'm going to try to stick with Chicken for a while unless there's a good reason not to
10:37:33 <Taneb> zzo38, crossdess and lure him into a honey trap?
10:37:38 <elliott> Sgeo: i have completely given up on influencing your behaviour in any way
10:37:41 <Sgeo> Although laziness in trying to set it up my stymie
10:37:47 <zzo38> Taneb: I do not understand.
10:37:48 <Sgeo> might stymie me
10:37:57 <Taneb> *crossdress
10:38:08 <Taneb> Utlilize his libido against him
10:39:00 <elliott> im just going to /clear instead of reading the context to that
10:39:19 <fizzie> Well, Chicken has syntax-rules and a low-level defmacroish macro system built in, and a syntax-case egg, so just sticking with it doesn't really help when it comes to selecting a macro system.
10:39:21 <zzo38> Taneb: I doubt I can do any of those things
10:39:57 <Taneb> zzo38, how good is your charisma?
10:40:22 <zzo38> 18
10:40:24 <fizzie> Though I suppose the syntax-case egg is for version 3.
10:40:35 <Sgeo> fizzie, it helps when it comes to selecting a Scheme
10:41:06 <zzo38> All the information about the game is available on my computer and can be accessed by internet
10:42:34 <zzo38> Changing my dress is unlikely to help
10:42:52 <Taneb> What if you get him drunk first?
10:43:07 <Sgeo> fizzie, if they're all part of the same Scheme, then I just choose whichever I need in the specific situation, right?
10:43:31 <Sgeo> Are code-walkers easier in Scheme than CL?
10:43:48 <zzo38> I think you completely fail to understand the situation... I need to tell him something remotely; we cannot see each other or touch each other before he arrives
10:44:03 <Taneb> Okay
10:44:25 <Taneb> I'm out, then
10:45:09 <zzo38> I may need some scrolls of Locate Creature too
10:45:31 <Taneb> I've never actually played DnD
10:45:40 <Taneb> I've got a player's handbook for some reason
10:45:49 <zzo38> What version?
10:45:56 <Taneb> 4th ed
10:46:07 <zzo38> I am playing 3.5ed. I don't like 4th ed
10:46:12 <Sgeo> Why am I ignoring Racket?
10:48:04 <zzo38> Taneb: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex
10:48:54 <Sgeo> About the Scheme interpreter in LSL
10:48:55 <Sgeo> "There are still scheme features that are not implimented. Among these are the following: - There is no way to define macros. - There are no floating point numbers. - Procedures must be created using lambda. It is not possible to write (define (square x) (* x x)) - There is no such thing as a dotted pair! *gasp* - Cond, Let, Display have not been defined."
10:49:00 <zzo38> That is the current situation in the game.
10:49:10 <zzo38> (My character is Kjugobe)
10:49:41 <Taneb> I'm not likely to be much help
10:50:37 <zzo38> There is also the .dvi file but you may want the source it asks you what level of detail you want to print before it compiles. You also need dungeonsrecording.tex
10:52:54 <fizzie> Sgeo: But does it have continuations?
10:53:11 <Sgeo> I doubt it.
10:53:52 <fizzie> It's such a Scheme thing it ought to be on the list.
10:54:05 <zzo38> My idea was Icosahedral RPG; 4th ed changed many things I don't like and Icosahedral is changed from 3rd ed mostly in the opposite ways (this is mainly a coincidence; these ideas were much from before 4th ed was announced)
10:54:30 <zzo38> For example, 4th ed has CR but no LA, Icosahedral has LA but no CR.
10:58:14 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG also completes PC/NPC unification, something 3rd ed has partially done and 4th ed has abandoned.
11:00:46 <zzo38> Arcane magic in 3rd ed (and all earlier editions) is not sufficiently arcane (in my opinion), and in 4th ed it is not even sufficiently magic!
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11:15:12 <zzo38> (The things that used CR in D&D are not used in Icosahedral RPG, so there is no need to have CR.)
11:16:21 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/6mg5v.jpg
11:18:50 <elliott> ion: Crawl Light has squarelos now!
11:19:36 <elliott> ion: THANKS TO ME.
11:19:39 <elliott> Have I told you this?
11:20:11 <zzo38> Make a variant with knightlos
11:20:32 <elliott> That sounds confusing.
11:20:37 <ion> elliott: You haven’t!
11:20:44 <zzo38> Yes it probably would be confusing
11:20:57 <elliott> ion: BEHOLD: https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/commit/4978bd01902f948a5bdbc00d48539a2d912523a7
11:21:00 <elliott> You should play Light!
11:21:16 <ion> I have unfinished games on both CAO and CDO, btw. :-P
11:21:27 <elliott> ion: You know how Crawl has a bunch of repetitive levels and could stand to have the branches a bit shorter? And also how curses are so meaningless as to be pointless?
11:21:44 <elliott> And also how hunger is more of an annoyance than anything else? And also how the identificaiton game is kind of lame? And also how the LOS is a badly-approximated circle?
11:21:48 <elliott> LIGHT FIXES ALL THESE THINGS.
11:21:50 <elliott> Especially the last one.
11:21:55 <ion> ok :-)
11:21:56 <elliott> Because I spent two days manually applying and fixing a patch.
11:22:10 <elliott> ion: Anyway, two unfinished games is not nearly enough.
11:24:09 <elliott> ion: Have I mentioned Light has a hard mode?
11:24:21 <elliott> Lots of dragons and eyes of draining and multiple nasty uniques on the same dungeon level.
11:24:22 <elliott> It's great.
11:24:26 <elliott> Do I mean draining?
11:24:29 <elliott> I mean devastation, I think.
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11:29:42 <ion> I suppose the “circle” LOS is more like a rounded plus shape since diagonal moves have the same cost as horizontal and vertical moves, one could say you see further horizontally and vertically than diagonally. And the “square” LOS is more like a circle given the nonlinear topology.
11:30:03 <elliott> ion: Yes, exactly.
11:30:12 <elliott> ion: circlelos does ridiculous things like make it more advantageous to approach from a diagonal.
11:30:31 <elliott> ion: (I think the "rounded plus shape" is actually a diamond.)
11:30:52 <ion> Hmm, it might be.
11:30:53 <Sgeo> What's MIT scheme like?
11:31:05 <elliott> Sgeo: A Scheme implementation.
11:31:11 <elliott> ion: If I tell you the server, will you play Light?
11:31:11 <ion> sgeo: It has parentheses.
11:31:31 <elliott> ion: Hint: The server is telnet light.bitprayer.com.
11:31:56 <ion> elliott: I might as well try it later. I’m watching mitx-6.002 lectures at the moment and there’s a deadline for the homework.
11:32:11 <elliott> ion: Pfft, excuses.
11:33:59 <zzo38> Do you like to play as monster character in D&D game?
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11:34:23 <ion> Jim Florentine - Let Me Put My Brother On (Prank Call) http://youtu.be/2dy9lUJJGqI
11:37:40 <elliott> ion: Too busy for Crawl but not for YouTube? :P
11:39:53 <ion> elliott: I can do youtube for five minutes while eating something, crawl takes more time and more free hands. :-)
11:40:07 <elliott> You can probably play Crawl with one hand.
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11:43:50 <fizzie> That sounds dirty.
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12:54:33 <Taneb> Hello
13:01:47 <elliott> hi Taneb
13:07:10 <Sgeo> Why does Linden Labs prefix so many functions with the word Get
13:07:14 <Sgeo> Get this, get that
13:10:33 <fizzie> They, too, are trapped in the Java Bean factory.
13:11:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC SPONGE CONTEST | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:26:35 <Taneb> Finally, Luigi has a purpose!
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14:10:06 <elliott> i had this great dream last night
14:10:09 <elliott> but i've forgotten most of it
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15:07:02 <itidus21> elliott: find a piece you can remember.. and it will link to more
15:07:19 <itidus21> or maybe it won't
15:07:28 <elliott> I don't remember more than a very few vague events; just images and the feel of it.
15:07:37 <elliott> I know it involved at least one foreign country.
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15:30:06 <itidus21> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/25/psychologists-replace-rorschach-tests-with-misheard-lyrics
15:31:49 <nortti> itidus21: that links doesn't work
15:32:00 <itidus21> thats because it's a lie
15:32:09 <elliott> diabolical
15:32:20 <itidus21> i wrote a url knowing it didn't exist!
15:32:38 <elliott> diabolical
15:33:07 <itidus21> i once purjored myself that way
15:33:39 <itidus21> ^perjured
15:38:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I both want to know the details and am praying that I never do.
15:38:28 <itidus21> i lied again!
15:39:29 <itidus21> maybe you don't need to. i just need to learn to communicate
16:00:06 <Sgeo> The enemy has your lolly!
16:04:25 <itidus21> Then I need a hero who likes food. PacMan.
16:05:37 <itidus21> PacMan sequals = proof that
16:06:49 <itidus21> professor pacman: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Profpacman.png
16:09:54 <itidus21> break;
16:10:43 <elliott> hi
16:26:52 <Sgeo> Tried ArmA2
16:26:58 <Sgeo> The controls feel like crap
16:27:06 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to try America's Army like originally intended
16:27:44 <elliott> don't
16:28:16 <Sgeo> Because if I do, the brain control waves hidden in the game will force me to join the Army?
16:28:35 <elliott> no
16:32:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:32:38 <itidus21> propaganda isn't based on brain control waves
16:32:41 <Sgeo> `welcome KingOfKarlsruhe
16:32:49 <HackEgo> KingOfKarlsruhe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:32:58 <Sgeo> Well, I promise not to join the Army, at any rate
16:33:11 <elliott> have i mentioned don't play america's army
16:33:20 <itidus21> hoorah
16:33:53 <Sgeo> elliott, what will happen if I do
16:33:54 <KingOfKarlsruhe> Sgeo: i'm pretty sure, that HackEgo is a Haskell Bot
16:34:03 <elliott> Sgeo: everybody will die
16:34:03 <Sgeo> KingOfKarlsruhe, that's lambdabot
16:34:49 <Sgeo> Bleh, I'd need to free up a lot of HD space
16:35:01 <elliott> good
16:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, dont play america's army
16:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> you dont like arma 2's controls because you are noob
16:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and dont like having q and e mapped to lean right and left because it is the 90s and there is time for fps qwop
16:36:37 <Sgeo> I didn't even play with that
16:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> no thats by default
16:36:58 <Sgeo> I don't like an essential function for training being mapped to a non-existent key
16:37:06 <elliott> `pastlog and there is time for
16:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ah yes that problem
16:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> you can `rebind' keys, it is a complex process though
16:37:39 <HackEgo> No output.
16:37:41 <Sgeo> The mouse sensitivity needs to be tuned :/
16:37:43 <Phantom_Hoover> actually i shouldn't jibe, it actually is in arma 2
16:37:46 <elliott> `pastlog there is time for
16:37:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I binded it to left Alt
16:37:59 <elliott> binded
16:38:02 <Sgeo> In the process losing the key for Look
16:38:04 <HackEgo> 2011-09-07.txt:03:14:55: -!- oerjan changed the topic of #esoteric to: It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | I think pointers are considerably more useful than lambda calculus | 12345678 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
16:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> there are several pages of controls in each of like 5 sections
16:38:11 <elliott> binded
16:38:21 -!- elliott has set topic: It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | I think pointers are considerably more useful than lambda calculus | 12345678 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:38:35 <elliott> atehwa: How did that event go, by the way?
16:38:45 <Sgeo> I only just realized that that's not the word
16:39:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wait, is right alt used for anything/
16:39:10 <Sgeo> I have a right alt key
16:39:14 <Phantom_Hoover> probably
16:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> if you mash your face on the keyboard in arma 2 youll probably manage to start a nuclear war
16:39:37 <Sgeo> lol
16:42:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is look actually useful in games?
16:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i suspect it's useful in vehicle sections
16:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> but if you have to do a vehicle section i pity you, its like piloting a pig with 2 engines on fire
16:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what was the pig trap's slogan again
16:43:19 <elliott> ex piggia et scientia or something
16:43:30 <Phantom_Hoover> yes because you are bad lattin
16:43:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, does AA3 have vehicles? >.>
16:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i have no idea
16:44:09 * Sgeo goes to install Urban Terror
16:45:00 <elliott> Y\O\U\ H\A\V\E\N\'\T\ E\X\P\L\O\D\E\D\ Y\E\T\
16:45:18 <Sgeo> elliott, go get Worms working at some point
16:45:22 <elliott> /B/U/T/ Y/O/U/ W/I/L/L/ /S/O/O/N
16:45:31 <elliott> Sgeo: You ruined it. :(
16:46:13 <Sgeo> o.O
16:46:27 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there was something to ruin
16:46:35 <elliott> That line. It interrupted mine.
16:46:55 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there would be another line, and that there was supposed to be some sort of visual effect
16:46:58 <Sgeo> <elliott> Y\O\U\ H\A\V\E\N\'\T\ E\X\P\L\O\D\E\D\ Y\E\T\
16:47:01 <Sgeo> <elliott> /B/U/T/ Y/O/U/ W/I/L/L/ /S/O/O/N
16:47:05 <Sgeo> I don't get it
16:47:10 <elliott> It's not really a visual effect.
16:47:14 <elliott> They just belong together.
16:48:50 <elliott> ion: Light.
16:48:51 <elliott> Play Light.
16:49:00 <Sgeo> I'll play
16:49:01 <ion> I’l playing 6.002x
16:49:03 <ion> m
16:49:06 <elliott> Sgeo: What, Light?
16:49:14 <elliott> telnet light.bitprayer.com
16:50:00 <Sgeo> Hold on
16:50:59 <Sgeo> Playing
16:51:02 <elliott> such a boring combo!!! but ok
16:51:04 <Sgeo> What's light about it?
16:51:07 <elliott> no id
16:51:09 <elliott> no hunger
16:51:11 <elliott> no curses
16:51:14 <elliott> shorter branches
16:51:15 <elliott> but also:
16:51:16 <elliott> squarelos
16:51:18 <elliott> difficulty modes
16:51:26 <Sgeo> Oh, so still full game
16:51:29 <elliott> aren't you going to adjust your skills
16:51:33 <Sgeo> Thought it would be some quick thing
16:51:39 <elliott> it's quick enough
16:51:41 <elliott> you can win in a few hours
16:51:46 <elliott> you want to autotrain
16:51:59 <elliott> turn off fighting and dodging
16:52:24 <Sgeo> What's purple?
16:52:33 <elliott> it's scrolls that are probably bad
16:52:41 <elliott> also mutagenic corpses but light doesn't have eating so
16:52:50 <elliott> and
16:52:52 <elliott> green is poisonous
16:52:59 <elliott> and prayer does nothing if you've already chopped a corpse...
16:53:14 <elliott> (additionally: you don't need to walk onto a corpse to sacrifice it in light)
16:53:30 <Sgeo> Did not know that about not needing to walk on it
16:53:52 <Sgeo> Why do apples exist?
16:54:11 <elliott> fedhas i think
16:54:12 <Sgeo> lag
16:54:19 <elliott> i don't like the permafood still existing thing
16:54:21 <elliott> it should be removed
16:56:03 <Sgeo> Does teleport still have time before it actually takes effect?
16:56:28 <elliott> yes
16:56:33 <elliott> Sgeo: don't X>.>, just G>
16:57:39 <elliott> nice int
16:57:44 <Sgeo> ?
16:57:49 <elliott> your int stat
16:57:56 <elliott> it will be fun if you get stat-drained
16:58:06 <Sgeo> Why is it that low?
16:58:20 <elliott> because yuo're trol
16:59:26 <Sgeo> Is Trog fine with skeletized corpses?
16:59:44 <elliott> he's not fine with rotting corpses
16:59:44 <elliott> so
16:59:45 <elliott> no
17:00:23 <elliott> henzell is more useful than xv
17:00:31 <Sgeo> She can't cast in silence right?
17:00:35 <elliott> it doesn't matter
17:00:51 <Sgeo> elliott, hm?
17:00:52 <elliott> just chokepoint and bash her
17:00:54 <elliott> with berk possibly
17:01:35 <Sgeo> What's Glow?
17:01:54 <elliott> bad stuff that gives you mutations if it gets too high
17:01:59 <elliott> so you can't spam spells/invocations too much
17:02:04 <elliott> its harmless
17:03:13 <Sgeo> Wait what
17:03:31 <elliott> what about it
17:03:36 <elliott> why did you add the zig to your shopping list
17:03:36 <Sgeo> Ziggurat
17:03:39 <elliott> yes
17:03:40 <Sgeo> I didn't
17:03:41 <elliott> what about it
17:03:42 <elliott> oh
17:03:46 <Sgeo> I pressed o
17:03:47 <elliott> well
17:03:49 <elliott> what about it
17:03:53 <Sgeo> I think o automatically enters shops or something
17:04:01 <elliott> it does but
17:04:04 <elliott> i'm not sure what's confusing
17:04:12 <Sgeo> Why it was offering me a ziggurat
17:04:19 <elliott> it's a zig portal
17:04:28 <elliott> consult ??ziggurat
17:05:09 <elliott> nice saccing :P
17:05:52 <elliott> what happened
17:05:56 <Sgeo> I got bored
17:06:11 <elliott> that quickly?
17:06:14 <elliott> you didn't even reach the pandoora
17:06:20 <elliott> do you give games less time than you give languages
17:06:30 <Sgeo> lol
17:06:41 <elliott> that was not a joke
17:06:54 <Sgeo> >.> I might be in that habit
17:07:01 <Sgeo> I do intend to go through SICP
17:07:35 <elliott> have fun with that
17:07:48 <Sgeo> ?
17:08:25 <elliott> i have doubts in your patience
17:09:00 <Sgeo> >.> that's a fear
17:11:47 <elliott> Sgeo: you could at least splat the thing
17:14:51 <itidus21> the odds of me doing sicp are so small that the idea of me doing it first is not cause for concern
17:15:11 <ion> A star vs. a black hole, the length is 139 days. http://i.minus.com/ibovF0KvyEZmtl.gif
17:17:34 <elliott> rip star
17:17:35 <elliott> "missed"
17:17:52 <ion> I’m rooting for the black hole.
17:18:21 <elliott> no
17:18:22 <elliott> missed
17:22:28 <elliott> No - lgood
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18:19:19 <BlueProtoman> Anyone know what
18:19:24 <BlueProtoman> time it is?
18:19:36 <BlueProtoman> On a more serious note...
18:20:32 <BlueProtoman> I'm trying to write a Brainfuck interpreter. I've got my code here for seeing if the []'s are balanced http://ideone.com/S6Td2 , but it doesn't seem to work. I stepped through it on my own, with drawings and everything, and it worked fine. Any tips
18:21:57 <elliott> are you just trying to check if they're balanced, or build a table of some kind while you're doing so?
18:22:08 <BlueProtoman> Oh, yes, I'm doing the latter as well.
18:22:30 <BlueProtoman> A table that records brace pairs so I can easily jump around.
18:22:51 <elliott> right
18:22:56 <elliott> what problems are you seeing exactly?
18:23:05 <BlueProtoman> I get a segfault when I hit a ].
18:23:14 <BlueProtoman> Lemme show you my BF program.
18:23:19 <elliott> nice
18:23:35 <elliott> perhaps brace_table is insufficiently large
18:23:44 <BlueProtoman> http://ideone.com/jDpfo
18:23:56 <BlueProtoman> Insufficiently large? Huh?
18:24:07 <elliott> well, how do you declare brace_table?
18:24:51 <BlueProtoman> std::unordered_map<int64_t, int64_t> brace_table;
18:24:58 <elliott> ah
18:25:00 <elliott> never mind, then...
18:25:12 <elliott> seems very odd indeed
18:25:14 <BlueProtoman> I use unordered_map because that's got constant lookup, while map doesn't.
18:25:28 <elliott> but non-constant insert :)
18:25:32 <elliott> anyway
18:25:40 <BlueProtoman> Right, but I
18:25:42 <BlueProtoman> Right, but I
18:25:44 <BlueProtoman> Fuck
18:25:51 <elliott> have you tried stepping through in gdb? I'd guess it's some other code you have that's causing the segfault, because I can't see how this would
18:25:53 <BlueProtoman> Right, but I'm doing more lookups than insertions.
18:25:58 <fizzie> How about that thing, you know that thing. A gruddebe? No, that's not it. A grudbug. Oh, right, a debugger!
18:26:01 <BlueProtoman> Oh, I think I might know what the issue is.
18:26:12 <elliott> fizzie: BEAT YOU TO IT.
18:26:13 <BlueProtoman> I forgot to actually use brace_table.
18:26:17 <elliott> BlueProtoman: heh
18:26:22 <BlueProtoman> Silly me.
18:26:24 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I was trying to invent more misspellings.
18:26:51 <shachaf> elliott: You said it first but fizzie said it better.
18:26:53 <BlueProtoman> Also, I don't quite know how to run a program through gdb. I.e. launch gdb first, then my program.
18:26:58 <shachaf> fizzie++
18:27:05 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: You should learn to use gdb!
18:27:09 <shachaf> gdb ./program
18:27:12 <elliott> BlueProtoman: gdb ./program
18:27:12 <shachaf> > run
18:27:13 <elliott> start
18:27:13 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `run'
18:27:13 <elliott> cont
18:27:14 <shachaf> > hi program
18:27:15 <elliott> bt
18:27:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `hi'Not in scope: `program'
18:27:55 <BlueProtoman> shachaf: I do use it through Code::Blocks, but I don't really know how to use it on the command line. I don't know how to have Code::Blocks pass arguments to my program. With no args, my interpreter just shows a help screen.
18:28:12 <elliott> gdb ./program
18:28:13 <shachaf> elliott: whoa, dude, start
18:28:14 <elliott> set args a b c d
18:28:23 <shachaf> whoa, dude, set args
18:28:26 <elliott> gdb can also take args on the command-line i think but
18:28:35 <shachaf> Yes, with gdb --args ./program a b c d
18:28:35 <fizzie> gdb --args ./program a b c d, or some-such.
18:28:40 <fizzie> Late again!
18:28:43 <fizzie> Curses.
18:28:48 <elliott> ncurses
18:29:00 <BlueProtoman> That simple?
18:29:12 <BlueProtoman> OK, but now I need to figure out how to use the important utilities.
18:29:27 <BlueProtoman> This summer I need to spend my time before college starts learning things like make or gdb.
18:29:32 <elliott> 99% of gdb is useless :P
18:29:42 <shachaf> elliott: gdb is ~2 million lines of code.
18:29:45 <BlueProtoman> elliott: "important utilities"
18:29:46 <BlueProtoman> !?!?!?!
18:29:49 <shachaf> So that's 20,000 useful lines?
18:30:00 <elliott> shachaf: Sounds like an overestimation to me.
18:30:12 <shachaf> Lines of C.
18:30:29 <elliott> OK, maybe.
18:30:49 <shachaf> Also gdb has some useful features that (presumably) take a lot of code to implement.
18:30:53 <shachaf> Like stepping backwards.
18:31:09 <elliott> I hate debuggers.
18:31:11 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: Did you know gdb could do that?
18:31:17 <elliott> I use printf debugging whenever possible.
18:31:18 <BlueProtoman> shachaf: No, I didn't, actually.
18:31:32 <BlueProtoman> Stepping backwards...
18:31:33 <elliott> The nice thing about REPLs is that they're basically printf debugging automators.
18:31:42 <BlueProtoman> Huh?
18:31:45 <BlueProtoman> What's a REPL?
18:32:00 <shachaf> @google what's a repl :'(
18:32:02 <lambdabot> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8731782/whats-a-repl-process-and-what-can-i-use-it-for
18:32:02 <lambdabot> Title: node.js - What's a REPL process and what can I use it for? - Stack Overflow
18:32:06 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Read-eval-print-loop.
18:32:14 <elliott> Don't click that Stack Overflow link. Nothing with node.js in the title can be good news.
18:32:19 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Have you used Python or Ruby?
18:32:24 <shachaf> @google why node.js is stupid
18:32:27 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e1zzna-dNw
18:32:27 <lambdabot> Title: Node.JS Is Stupid And If Y
18:32:28 <BlueProtoman> elliott: I've dabbled in Python, Ruby not really.
18:32:33 <elliott> BlueProtoman: You know the Python console?
18:32:36 <BlueProtoman> Yep.
18:32:39 <elliott> BlueProtoman: That's a REPL.
18:32:46 <elliott> It reads an expression, evaluates it, prints the result, and loops back again.
18:33:03 <BlueProtoman> Does it allow normal program flow if placed inside a program?
18:33:37 <elliott> Can you clarify? I'm not sure I understand.
18:34:05 <elliott> shachaf: I forgot about that video. :(
18:34:36 <elliott> Gregor: You should watch that video. It's terrible.
18:35:22 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Like, could I insert a REPL into my Brainfuck interpreter and NOT have it affect it running, aside from extra junk being put on-screen?
18:35:46 <elliott> BlueProtoman: Well, a REPL is a development tool, really, separate from running complete programs.
18:36:07 <elliott> But you could have a REPL where you can feed it a whole program and it'd work fine, sure.
18:36:23 <BlueProtoman> So GDB is like a big-ass REPL?
18:36:44 <elliott> gdb is like a REPL except it's attached to a running program that you step through.
18:36:50 <elliott> And also you can't actually evaluate arbitrary expressions.
18:37:00 <elliott> So it's not really like a REPL. But there are similarities :)
18:37:07 <shachaf> elliott: I haven't watched it.
18:37:22 <elliott> shachaf: You should.
18:37:24 <elliott> You'll hurt.
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19:04:14 <BlueProtoman> OK, new problem with my BF interpreter.
19:04:26 <BlueProtoman> I now know how to access the braces properly. Fine.
19:05:04 <BlueProtoman> But now when Brain Drain (as I call the interpreter) runs through the BF program, it doesn't output anything even though the BF program has "." instructions.
19:05:15 <BlueProtoman> And IDEone tells me it works just fine.
19:06:15 <BlueProtoman> I catch all the exceptions that both std::string and std::unordered_map throw, and they mostly consist of vector::_M_range_check, with the occasional _Map_base::at
19:06:32 <BlueProtoman> (According to std::out_of_range.what())
19:07:10 <BlueProtoman> And I use unordered_map.at() rather than unordered_map[] so I don't create new elements.
19:07:46 <BlueProtoman> Any tips?
19:08:31 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: I recommend taking elliott's advice.
19:08:41 <shachaf> Take your printfshaker and sprinkle some printfs throughout the program.
19:08:46 <BlueProtoman> shachaf: I am.
19:09:03 <coppro> how big is the interpreter?
19:09:04 <BlueProtoman> Particularly in my instructions, which come as void function objects.
19:09:48 <BlueProtoman> coppro: Lemme put it on IDEone. See, I plan on adding several Brainfuck dialects, and each one will come as a class.
19:11:06 <BlueProtoman> When I put cout's in my BF instructions, I get nothing. I DO know that the program is looping with the braces, though.
19:11:16 <BlueProtoman> http://ideone.com/z9Yji
19:11:25 <BlueProtoman> That's my Brainfuck.cpp. Brainfuck.h coming
19:12:16 <coppro> I think your regex is wrong
19:12:41 <coppro> It shouldn't compile
19:13:07 <BlueProtoman> coppro: My regex is somewhat correct (it compiles, but doesn't match anything), but that's not my concern right now.
19:13:16 <BlueProtoman> http://ideone.com/UhC55
19:13:37 <coppro> BlueProtoman: ok, well, it doesn't match because the early ] kills it
19:13:42 <coppro> your character class ends partway through
19:13:51 <BlueProtoman> coppro: I don't know how to match individual []'s, though.
19:14:02 <coppro> BlueProtoman: [ can be matched safely inside a class
19:14:12 <coppro> and ] can be matched safely outside of one
19:14:15 <coppro> also watch out for -
19:14:18 <coppro> it needs to be first or las
19:14:24 <coppro> *or last, or else it will be a character range
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19:15:30 <BlueProtoman> coppro: Still doesn't match my program.
19:15:30 <coppro> oh, ] can also be safely matched first
19:15:43 <coppro> []fo] matches ']', 'f', or 'o'
19:16:10 <BlueProtoman> You ARE referring to POSIX regex, right?
19:16:23 <BlueProtoman> This is mine, with your changes; [^><+.,[\]@$!}{~^&|-]
19:16:33 <BlueProtoman> And this is my BF program;
19:16:33 <BlueProtoman> f++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++The Rain in Spain is Falling on the Plane..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
19:16:45 <nortti> I have installed working c compiler to my bot at #esoteric-en. first one to destroy my chroot gets ops
19:16:53 <coppro> you can't just escape a ]
19:17:05 <coppro> backslashes are meaningless inside classes
19:17:29 <coppro> you have to do [^][><+.,@$!{}~^&|-]
19:18:28 <BlueProtoman> coppro: It works! Thanks! Now to actually get the program itself working.
19:18:40 <coppro> make sure to flush cout
19:19:03 <BlueProtoman> When? And what does flushing do?
19:19:15 <coppro> cout is buffered output
19:19:24 <coppro> it doesn't instantly print everything you stream to it
19:19:29 <coppro> you have to flush it to make it actually happen
19:19:39 <coppro> endl flushes automatically
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19:21:51 <BlueProtoman> coppro: OK, I cout.flush() whenever I hit a "." instruction, but I still see nothing.
19:26:49 <oerjan> always flush regularly. or was that floss regularly.
19:27:41 <BlueProtoman> I still don't quite understand what a buffer is or what flushing is.
19:29:58 <oerjan> afaik: communicating between processes is somewhat expensive, therefore file/stream io tends to try not to send just one character at a time, but instead save it in a buffer to be sent all at once. this can be set to happen either when the buffer is full, when a newline is output, or on each character (when you really need it).
19:30:08 <oerjan> *afaiu
19:30:37 <elliott> It's syscalls that are expensive, really
19:31:32 <oerjan> also perhaps cache synchronization, no?
19:32:14 <BlueProtoman> If that's the case, why does std::cout << "France"; work
19:32:34 <kmc> yes, even when processes communicate through shared memory and use lockless data structures, there is no free lunch
19:32:49 <kmc> BlueProtoman: stdout is typically line-buffered if it's a terminal
19:33:29 <BlueProtoman> kmc: In that case, why should I flush often if we're using a terminal? Hell, what else could stdout go to?
19:33:45 <kmc> BlueProtoman: you could redirect stdout to a file, or pipe it to another process
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19:34:03 <elliott> BlueProtoman: because it won't flush until you write a newline
19:34:06 <elliott> so the output won't come
19:34:09 <BlueProtoman> kmc: So I could redirect stdout to LibreOffice if I wanted to?
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19:34:17 <BlueProtoman> Or some other text editor?
19:34:19 <kmc> on UNIX anyway, stdout is just file descriptor 1, and that could be opened to any kind of file
19:34:22 <elliott> if libreoffice supported that, sure
19:34:29 <elliott> unix is all about connecting stdout and stdin to places
19:34:29 <kmc> BlueProtoman: sure, but those programs typically don't accept input on standard input
19:34:33 <kmc> why don't you read about unix pipes
19:35:08 <BlueProtoman> So if not standard input, then what?
19:35:23 <kmc> libreoffice is a gui program with gui dialogs for opening files and such
19:35:30 <kmc> that's where it gets its input
19:35:34 <kmc> not by reading std::cin
19:35:59 <BlueProtoman> I meant the text. It just uses events, then?
19:36:04 <kmc> i'm so confused
19:36:18 <BlueProtoman> Never mind that, then.
19:36:19 <ais523> <elliott> It's syscalls that are expensive, really <-- right, shared memory and non-contended futexes are both pretty cheap, as neither gets the kernel involved
19:36:27 <kmc> i think rather than flushing repeatedly, you can just put std::cout into an unbuffered mode
19:36:31 <kmc> but i don't remember how
19:36:38 <elliott> HAVE I MENTIONED
19:36:39 <elliott> HOW
19:36:42 <elliott> SYSCALLS
19:36:43 <elliott> ARE FREE
19:36:44 <elliott> IN @
19:36:53 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Huh?
19:36:55 <oerjan> elliott: ALSO BEER
19:36:59 <elliott> BlueProtoman: @ is... @
19:37:03 <elliott> it's... it's a thing
19:37:08 <BlueProtoman> Free in @? I don't get it.
19:37:11 <elliott> it's like feather, but different
19:37:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
19:37:19 <BlueProtoman> Oh, OK.
19:37:23 <kmc> BlueProtoman: as to your original question, try something like: std::cout << "foo"; sleep(2); std::cout << " bar\n";
19:37:34 <kmc> you won't see foo 2 seconds before bar
19:37:37 <kmc> because of line buffering
19:37:39 <oerjan> BlueProtoman: @ is elliott's vaporware os design
19:37:47 <elliott> it's not vapourware!
19:37:49 <elliott> it's just uh
19:37:50 <elliott> uhhh
19:37:51 <elliott> @ware
19:37:52 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: arr more part where yarr
19:37:53 <Sgeo> The suckiest part of World of Padman is the players
19:38:02 <Sgeo> They don't seem to know how to play capture the flag
19:39:04 <oerjan> elliott: just solidly challenged, right?
19:39:12 <elliott> >:(
19:39:51 <kmc> naive use of shared memory is pretty cheap for 2-4 threads but if you're trying to scale up to a 48 core machine, you hit a wall pretty quickly
19:40:09 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/ is very meta today
19:40:41 <BlueProtoman> kmc: OK. Now, what I don't get is how this helps me understand why my BF interpreter gives me no output. Especially since I just switched to putchar.
19:40:43 <kmc> then you need to think about cache lines bouncing between cores, efficient use of memory barriers, NUMA
19:41:04 <elliott> BlueProtoman: it doesn't :P
19:41:06 <kmc> BlueProtoman: if it's a buffering problem you should get all the output when the program quits
19:41:07 <elliott> putchar buffers too though
19:41:27 <BlueProtoman> elliott: Except that there might be a need for input beforehand. BF allows input.
19:41:49 <kmc> coppro: you can also do [><+.,@$!{}~^&|-^] no?
19:42:42 <BlueProtoman> There must be a problem with how I'm calling my function objects.
19:42:56 <BlueProtoman> Placing std::cout << "France" << std::endl in them does nothing.
19:43:14 <kmc> maybe your code isn't getting called at all
19:43:33 <kmc> btw, cerr is useful for debugging as it's unbuffered
19:44:27 <BlueProtoman> kmc: Noted.
19:45:25 <kmc> you could use debugger breakpoints to see if your code is getting called
19:45:33 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:45:47 <Taneb> Hello
19:46:01 <Taneb> Am I allowed to call myself a published software author now?
19:46:58 -!- Zuu has changed nick to FluffZuu.
19:47:09 -!- FluffZuu has changed nick to FluffBall.
19:48:26 <BlueProtoman> kmc: This is my Brainfuck.cpp. At the bottom, I call my code with run(), which calls nextInstruction() on each character. http://ideone.com/8EjGf
19:50:29 <BlueProtoman> Any tips?
19:51:53 <kmc> no
19:51:55 <kmc> you could use debugger breakpoints to see if your code is getting called
19:52:27 <BlueProtoman> I need a break.
19:52:32 <BlueProtoman> So I'll take one.
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19:53:43 <fizzie> It's probably not related, but the run() looks very dubious. It will call nextInstruction() as many times as there are characters in the program, but (if there are loops) that's probably not the right amount of steps to execute.
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20:12:06 <zzo38> Go the store, and buy some more. You will need to open the purple door. -- Super ASCII MZX Town
20:13:58 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
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20:18:53 <zzo38> Make up QR-GAME which consists of a QR code of a binary code of a computer game for some virtual machine or emulator
20:18:59 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
20:19:18 <zzo38> nortti: Why do you keep changing your name?
20:19:52 <nortti> zzo38: I test !msg and !readmsg commands in my ircbot
20:20:03 <zzo38> OK
20:20:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oh elliott left
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20:55:17 <Sgeo> Church of Bitcoin?
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21:02:11 <zzo38> Edward Kmett said that discardable functors are the same as representable functors, and representable functors are isomorphic to ((->) x) for some x. I can prove that all discardable monads are idempotent applicatives, but since they are representable and therefore isomorphic to ((->) x) they are all monads and therefore all idempotent as well.
21:04:09 <zzo38> However, there are idempotent applicatives which are not discardable/representable, such as: ZipList, ((,) x) for some idempotent monoid x, Maybe, (Either x), (Const x) for some idempotent monoid x
21:04:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]).
21:04:37 <Taneb> What does idempotent mean?
21:05:17 <zzo38> Idempotent monoid means mappend x x = x and idempotent applicative means x *> x = x
21:05:38 <kmc> idempotent in general means "if you apply it twice, it's the same as applying it once"
21:05:55 <Taneb> And discardable and representable in this context?
21:06:59 <zzo38> Taneb: Discardable functor means x <$ y = x <$ z and representable means isomorphic to ((->) x) for some x
21:07:36 <zzo38> Identity is isomorphic to ((->) ()) and Finalize is isomorphic to ((->) Zero)
21:10:19 <zzo38> Is (\f x y -> (f x -> f y)) a Arrow if and only if f is idempotent applicative? I don't know but I guessed
21:12:15 <zzo38> x *> x = x >> x = join (x <$ x) = join (x <$ return y) = join (return x) = (join . return) x = id x = x
21:12:17 <Taneb> ...is Proxy an idempotent applicative?
21:12:46 <zzo38> Taneb: I think Proxy is equivalent to Finalize, so it is
21:13:04 <Taneb> Okay
21:13:05 <zzo38> (Note in proof given: This assumes it is discardable, so (x <$ x) = (x <$ y) for any y)
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21:40:36 <Taneb> Goodnight!
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21:50:43 <zzo38> There are two campaign rules I like (which are default in Icosahedral RPG, but I like to use them in Dungeons&Dragons as well): * Any dead creature is considered to age twice as fast while dead for the purpose of resurrection increasing your age more. * Alignment entry for kinds of creatures does not describe what is most likely (with a few exceptions) but instead describes what people (especially if superstitious) tend to believe.
21:50:56 <zzo38> Exceptions = angels, devils, demons, normal animals/vermins, unintelligent undead, and uniques.
21:55:36 <oonbotti> hello
21:57:01 <oerjan> `welcome oonbotti
21:57:02 <ais523> hi
21:57:05 <HackEgo> oonbotti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:57:37 * oerjan has a hunch that might mean "o is a bot"
21:58:23 <nortti_> oonbotti=olen botti=I am bot
21:59:18 <zzo38> (Other than the given exceptions, any random individual of some kind can be just as likely to be of any alignment; confirmation bias may cause people to persist in their fallacious beliefs.)
21:59:43 <zzo38> I think these two campaign rules make the game more interesting
22:00:04 <nortti_> !rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric Maybe I should make command for this
22:00:05 <oonbotti> Maybe
22:00:05 <oerjan> oh oon is slang for olen?
22:00:20 <zzo38> nortti_: You forgot the colon
22:00:27 <nortti_> !rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should make command for this
22:00:28 <oonbotti> Maybe I should make command for this
22:00:46 <nortti_> oerjan: yes
22:01:23 <oerjan> sorry, slang ain't gonna make it 'round here
22:01:53 <nortti_> !cc hello.c
22:02:00 <nortti_> !exec hello
22:02:22 <oonbotti> Hello world\n
22:02:49 <nortti_> !cat hello.c
22:02:50 <oonbotti> #include <stdio.h>\nint main() {char a[12]; a[0]='H'; a[1]='e'; a[2]='l'; a[3]='l'; a[4]='o'; a[5]=' '; a[6]='w'; a[7]='o'; a[8]='r'; a[9]='l'; a[10]='d'; a[11]=0; puts(a); }
22:02:51 <EgoBot> hello.c
22:02:53 <nortti_> !cat hello
22:02:54 <oonbotti> >>[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[>+>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<+>-]>>>>+[
22:02:54 <EgoBot> hello
22:03:10 <oerjan> i sense a conflict
22:03:17 <nortti_> me too
22:03:36 <nortti_> !cat foobar
22:03:37 <EgoBot> foobar
22:03:44 * oerjan suggests \
22:04:00 <oerjan> \help
22:04:18 <zzo38> I suggest you could just send message directly to oonbotti
22:04:37 <zzo38> Or you could have "oonbotti: " prefix for commands written to the channel
22:05:08 -!- oonbotti has left.
22:05:39 <nortti_> oh well. I 'lljust keep it on #esoteric-en
22:05:51 <zzo38> OK
22:06:34 <oerjan> if the default is finnish, then #esoteric-en means _not_ esoteric, right?
22:06:49 <ais523> oerjan: no, #esoteric-en means /not finnish/
22:06:55 <ais523> all languages but finnish are acceptable there, though
22:06:57 <ais523> not just English
22:07:38 <oerjan> ais523: that was a lousy attempt at a pun with finnish.
22:08:57 <oerjan> fi:en = en:i don't, or something like that
22:09:26 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I see
22:09:37 <ais523> when #esoteric-en was in the topic, though, the rule was that it was for all languages but Finnish
22:09:47 <ais523> actually enforced in #esoteric-en :)
22:09:54 <ais523> (not sure how many people actually joined it)
22:10:08 * oerjan suddenly wonders why it's fi rather than su
22:10:09 <nortti_> Ii never saw anyone other there than Sgeo
22:11:03 <nortti_> and I was there almost all the time
22:11:43 <zzo38> Do you like the rules of Icosahedral RPG?
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22:13:10 <Gregor> Is this topic some kind of Markov nightmare of all the topics from the past year?
22:14:12 <nortti_> by the way !cc on oonbotti was actually c2bf
22:15:34 <nortti_> it is the ISC licensed version with my libc and cpp added on wrapper script
22:17:26 <Gregor> Is that available somewhere yet?
22:18:36 <oerjan> `pastlog transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also
22:18:41 <nortti_> no yet. I still don't really understand how git works
22:18:53 <HackEgo> 2011-09-13.txt:23:10:28: -!- oerjan changed the topic of #esoteric to: Freudian armchair psycho-babble | It is the 90s and there is time for the requirements of supervision and control of transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, also an Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | god bless haskell america | 12345678!& | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
22:19:32 <Gregor> oerjan: Yes, that was my point ...
22:19:37 <oerjan> Gregor: i think it may be a straight rerun of one from earlier
22:19:45 <oerjan> around that time
22:20:04 <nortti_> Gregor: it was "fun" to edit copyright notices in all of the files
22:22:34 <Gregor> nortti_: YOU'RE WELCOME
22:23:03 <nortti_> WHY CAPITAL LETTERS?
22:23:23 <Gregor> BECAUSE I DECREE IT.
22:25:22 <nortti_> why do you decree it?
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23:13:40 <zzo38> Can you make the Free Geeks GameBoy game?
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