00:00:01 cool 00:02:32 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:03:09 -!- Patashu has joined. 00:03:23 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:25:48 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:26:40 -!- MoALTz has joined. 00:27:28 git commit -m "Rewrote the entire thing." 00:27:31 That feels good. 00:28:00 but but code reuse 00:29:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:35:14 pikhq_: DOOD lies the first line of all your shell scripts is still the same. 00:35:47 Gregor: Actually, no. 00:36:29 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 00:37:21 have your main() declarations changed? "{ 00:39:02 *sigh* I'm going to download Multimedia Fusion 2 00:39:43 ok 00:40:06 I just want to see the IWBTG source 00:42:57 -!- BlueProtoman has joined. 00:44:49 Has anyone in here written a Brainfuck interpreter? I'd like to know how you handle nested loops. My code doesn't seem to do so, but I'm not sure why. 00:45:02 just like normal loops 00:45:05 * elliott has written several 00:45:07 Has anyone in here NOT written a BF interpreter? 00:45:14 try reading daniel b cristofani's 00:45:17 Gregor: actually i never have 00:45:27 or well 00:45:29 oerjan: Ban oerj—errr 00:45:29 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/sbi.c 00:45:36 i guess i've translated bf to some esolangs 00:46:07 but that's compiling, at best 00:46:44 Lemme show you my code for it. I've probably got some simple thing wrong. 00:46:55 BlueProtoman: did you get non-nested loops working, then? 00:47:10 oerjan: Yes, I've got a simple "Hello World!" program running. 00:47:21 I'm not using the brace table method, since I don 00:47:30 don't have time to figure out how to fix that right now. 00:47:33 ah 00:47:58 http://ideone.com/Nr3Bz 00:48:17 That's how I do it. I just use a stack and iterate through the characters until I find a matching ]. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? 00:48:46 Bah the trial is limited to 30 days 00:50:28 BlueProtoman: btw a stack is overkill, you just need a counter 00:51:01 oerjan: But then aren't I limited to the range of an int? 00:51:28 -!- david_werecat has joined. 00:52:33 BlueProtoman: yes, but do you really have memory for a stack of sizeof(int) elements? 00:52:49 sizeof(int) being 4 or 8 on common platforms :P 00:53:01 er 00:53:22 sorry, i mean maxint, i'm just sure what it's called in C(++) 00:53:26 *not sure 00:53:52 oerjan: Point taken. OK, switched from stack to int64_t. Still not sure what's wrong with my loop, though. 00:54:17 anyway, any bignum implementation will work better than such a stack for the same amount of memory. 00:54:46 ...mind you you need room for the _program_ somewhere too :P 00:55:27 http://ideone.com/YMbwL Here's where I am right now. 00:56:43 BlueProtoman: To hit an *int* in your counter, you need to have 4 gigabytes of code. 00:56:56 pikhq_: OK, point taken. 00:57:00 Ooh, you know what would be great? 00:57:13 If you've got 4 gigabytes of Brainfuck to compile, cry. 00:57:26 pikhq_: Interpret. 00:57:33 tswett: World peace? 00:57:34 Cry anyways. 00:57:39 As everyone knows, 3 decibels is approximately a doubling, and 10 decibels is exactly a factor of 10. 00:57:44 It's nearly 4 gigabytes too many. 00:57:48 -!- MDude has joined. 00:58:01 What we need to do is define one "debibel" as a factor of 2^(1/3). 00:58:22 Then 3 debibels will be exactly a doubling, and 10 debibels will be exactly a factor of 1,024, which is approximately 1,000. 00:58:57 tswett: There's a much better unit to use. 00:58:59 "bit". 00:59:36 Well, yeah. A debibel is a third of a bit. 00:59:43 Anyone have any idea why http://ideone.com/YMbwL doesn't handle nested loops? 00:59:50 Which makes me want to create a programming language that has a "debibel shift left" operator. 01:00:19 BlueProtoman: i think you may have an off-by-one error in where currentinstruction ends up 01:00:27 Gee, I really like this. A programming language where all you can do is arithmetic, and severely limited arithmetic at that. 01:00:35 And therefore, computation must be carried out through rounding error. 01:00:45 as in, you go _past_ the last [ or ], but should stop _at_ it 01:01:16 Yeah, probably off-by-one. 01:01:46 OK, so why should I stop at the ] rather than one past it? 01:02:14 BlueProtoman: because you still have currentinstruction being incremented outside the instruction[...] code, right? 01:02:23 oerjan: Ah, yes. 01:02:25 Right. 01:02:28 *instructions 01:02:55 It'd work just fine if you were having the currentinstruction++ inside each instruction instead of up at your dispatch. 01:02:56 School is getting in the way of learning; I'm most mentally alert in the late morning, when I'm in class. 01:03:33 the other direction (not stopping at [) is harmless, but causes you to do an extra instructions['['], i think 01:05:39 pikhq_: yeah but that would be duplication everywhere else 01:05:50 Still not working...here's my code so far. http://ideone.com/N4GRI Is it always this annoying to be so analytical about my code, or would practice just make perfect? 01:06:04 Mostly a matter of practice, TBH. 01:06:23 BTW, though probably not *highly* efficient, I rather like your use of C++11 lambda there. 01:06:31 Thanks! 01:06:44 What wouldn't make it efficient, though? 01:08:16 Or is that a bunch of technical jazz I don't need to worry about right now? 01:08:19 BlueProtoman: you might want to add some debug print statements so you can see what bf commands your code actually tries to execute 01:08:24 It probably doesn't matter too much. 01:08:31 oerjan: You're right, I should. 01:08:35 Very few things need stupidly-fast dispatch. 01:09:04 Since I'm here, I might as well ask, would you guys have any advice for a future computer science major? I'm starting college this fall in a pretty good CS program. 01:09:58 Rule #1 for being a good programmer: do it a lot. 01:10:00 BlueProtoman: if they try to teach java, it's probably a bad sign 01:10:00 BlueProtoman: anyway i see nothing wrong with that part of your code now 01:10:34 imo don't stop programming yourself, and learn new languages and such 01:10:43 especially ones dissimilar to what you're being taught 01:10:52 elliott: Unfortunately, leaving out all the schools that teach Java first year leaves you with almost nothing. 01:11:07 elliott: In what way is that bad? Unless you mean teaching more Java than CS. 01:11:09 BlueProtoman: i might still be suspicious if currentinstruction is being incremented at the right time outside it, though. 01:11:15 *whether 01:11:40 BlueProtoman: Well, Java is not a good language. CS programs that teach Java tend to teach a lot more "software engineering" type stuff than any CA, and have a tendency to do it badly. 01:11:45 But yes, it's disappointingly common. 01:11:58 elliott: Well, my program's heavy on projects that give me freedom, so I plan on putting a lot of love into what I make. 01:12:02 Certainly not every single program that teaches Java in the first year is terrible throughout, but it's not ideal. 01:12:13 Gregor: Leaving out schools that consider !Java to be a "hard" thing, rather than core classes, at least gets you to skip really bad schools, though. 01:12:35 pikhq_: Purdue teaches Java first semester, then C second semester. 01:12:49 And of course I'm going to code. I code on my own time now, I will do so thus summer, I did for a project that was expected to be a PowerPoint. 01:12:53 *this summer 01:13:06 BlueProtoman: Also read SICP! (Disclaimer: I've never read SICP. But read it anyway.) 01:13:29 david_werecat: i think i can improve dreadnought 01:13:40 Howso? 01:14:13 I know by changing (-)*31 to (-)*29 I gain 3 points, but lost to one program. 01:14:28 elliott: Will do, thanks. 01:14:53 I know there are several other ways, but I'm interested to see what you think. 01:15:00 Also hang out in #esoteric. That's the best way to ensure you never get anything done. 01:15:32 On the wiki, I initially read DcScript as DrScript. 01:15:35 Sure, OK. 01:16:35 What would you say makes a CS program "terrible throughout?" 01:17:01 Teaching lots of Java and then doing C really badly and also being awful :P 01:17:11 You'll probably know if it's bad. 01:17:19 elliott: add some php classes, right? 01:17:23 elliott: Sgeo didn't know. :P 01:17:26 oerjan: Mmmmm. 01:17:35 pikhq_: I tend to assume people are not like Sgeo. 01:17:41 Fair point. 01:17:46 This generally works out pretty well for me 01:17:50 My school's actually well-ranked. It's not Caltech, but grads to go on to work at big companies. 01:17:58 Google, Microsoft, the NSA... 01:18:06 *do go on 01:18:23 Which school, anyways? 01:18:26 more protips: don't work for the nsa 01:18:45 pikhq_: Stony Brook University. 01:18:47 elliott: Can I ask why? (not that I'm likely to) 01:19:10 BlueProtoman: augur went there! Or goes there. Or something. I'm not sure. 01:19:17 I think he said they have a good CS program. 01:19:24 went 01:19:29 im at UMD now 01:19:34 pikhq_: I don't like it :P 01:19:42 augur: Grad school, or transfer? 01:19:50 I'm going to bug you now. Sorry. 01:20:10 grad 01:21:05 What was the course-load like? I originally wanted to do 18 credits a semester (since there's a lot I want to learn, even outside of CS), but now I'm not so sure. 01:28:36 test 01:28:39 quintopia: So, what's your ideas? 01:29:29 david_werecat: i am changing it now, and i will test it and if it is better, i will let you change yours to it. if not, you can laugh at me. 01:30:07 Okay, sounds like a good plan. If you do improve it, I'll give you a mention in the source code. 01:30:26 quintopia: shouldn't you be working on your scoring :P 01:30:49 elliott: this is something i can do in a few minutes without much thinking 01:30:54 i'm kidding 01:31:13 but yes there is something else i SHOULD be doing 01:31:24 yadayadaakrasiayadayadafuckmeyada 02:15:58 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:30:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:31:44 !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/QahW 02:31:47 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 65.1 02:32:54 interest 02:33:08 !bfjoust dwdmodtest < 02:33:11 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0 02:35:08 I have two files to use the mzx_ascii.chr with Linux console; as well as mzx_ascii.chr file themself there are two more files: http://sprunge.us/HFFX http://sprunge.us/ZBOd 02:36:09 quintopia: is it better? 02:37:18 elliott: no. proceed to laugh :P 02:37:23 ha 02:37:23 ha 02:37:24 ha 02:37:25 ha 02:37:27 ha 02:37:29 ha 02:37:31 ha 02:37:33 ha 02:37:35 ha 02:37:37 ha 02:37:39 ha 02:37:41 ha 02:37:43 ha 02:37:45 ha 02:37:47 ha 02:37:49 ha 02:37:51 ha 02:37:53 ha 02:37:55 ha 02:37:57 ha 02:37:59 ha 02:38:01 ha 02:38:03 ha 02:38:05 ha 02:38:07 ha 02:38:09 ha 02:38:09 Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:38:11 ha 02:38:13 ha 02:38:15 ha 02:38:17 ha 02:38:19 ha 02:38:21 ha 02:38:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 02:38:23 ha 02:38:25 ha 02:38:27 ha 02:38:27 * oerjan whistles innocently 02:38:29 ha 02:38:31 ha 02:38:33 ha 02:38:35 ha 02:38:37 ha 02:38:38 You may cease to laugh. 02:38:39 ha 02:38:41 ha 02:38:43 ha 02:38:45 ha 02:38:47 ha 02:38:49 ha 02:38:51 ha 02:38:53 ha 02:38:55 ha 02:38:57 ha 02:38:59 ha 02:39:01 ha 02:39:01 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott. 02:39:10 oerjan: I was about to do that :) 02:39:11 always forget with the reason 02:39:13 good one 02:39:37 -!- elliott has joined. 02:39:43 pls ban quintopia for lying & entrapment 02:39:49 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 02:40:07 !addquote ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:40:18 quintopia: does not follow quoting standards 02:40:24 pls ban quintopia for lying & entrapment & incorrect quoting 02:40:30 eh i dont know the command name 02:40:41 elliott: but... he _does_ get more lines that way, doesn't he? 02:40:43 the command /name/ is correct 02:40:47 you just pinged the wrong bot 02:40:48 !quoteadd ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:40:49 no 02:40:51 it's not the command name 02:40:53 it's the quote itself 02:40:54 oh 02:40:56 it does not follow the guidelines 02:40:57 well 02:41:00 and elliott insists on two spaces between comments 02:41:05 ais523: incorrect! 02:41:06 link me to the guidelines 02:41:07 when putting it all on one line 02:41:12 sometimes a [...] goes between the two spaces 02:41:16 quintopia: there is no link 02:41:17 well, mostly that 02:41:18 you just memorise them 02:41:23 i refuse 02:41:31 well then 02:41:38 we are at war 02:41:41 i don't even know hack's command character 02:41:45 so 02:41:48 no worries 02:41:51 and no quotes 02:41:54 I'm pretty sure at least one of the quotes instead has Unicode space that looks like two spaces just to troll elliott, rather than two space characters 02:41:59 ais523: argh 02:42:01 how could you say that 02:42:04 fix it!!! 02:42:16 the great thing is that it trolls you even if there isn't one, because now you'll go looking for it 02:42:20 well anyway 02:42:21 and I can't remember which one it is 02:42:23 ban ais523 for trolling 02:42:24 two spaces is obviously wrong 02:42:25 so 02:42:27 quintopia: no 02:42:28 die 02:42:33 ban elliott for being stupid 02:42:33 :'( 02:42:38 ban quintopia for calling me stupid 02:42:48 why am i not an op so i can execute all these corrections 02:43:15 self-answering questions are _so_ last century 02:43:21 `addquote ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [...] Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:43:24 847) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [...] Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:43:31 `revert 02:43:32 guidelines!!! 02:43:33 Done. 02:43:33 quintopia: elliott's about to revert that 02:43:37 oh, already dir 02:43:38 *did 02:43:44 ban ais523 for lying 02:43:48 well 02:43:54 i wanted to see if that wasthe command 02:43:57 figured it wouldn't stick 02:44:07 also, the [...] was redundant 02:44:10 revert and delquote should be removed 02:44:11 ^ul ( ha )::::*:*:****S 02:44:17 quintopia: no 02:44:21 quintopia should be removed 02:44:26 oh, fungot isn't here 02:44:28 oerjan: it implied that he said it a lot more than i could fit in there 02:44:35 ...ok 02:44:48 making it too easy to delete content discourages content creation 02:44:52 -!- thutubot has joined. 02:44:53 +ul ( ha )::::*:*:****S 02:44:53 ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 02:45:07 im going to ask for clearing to say ha a lot of times 02:45:13 `addquote ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [...] Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:45:15 847) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [...] Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:45:15 ais523 can i say ha a lot of times if you say no i will block you 02:45:23 is that the correct space around [...]? 02:45:29 no 02:45:34 it's one space before [ and one after ] 02:45:35 i want to delete elliott and the guidelines 02:45:36 elliott: and I don't really see how that adds to the channel; there's an #esoteric-blah for that sort of tihng 02:45:38 `revert 02:45:40 fuck standardization 02:45:40 Done. 02:45:42 ais523: it's not meant to add 02:45:50 `addquote ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [...] Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:45:53 847) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [...] Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:45:57 -blah is sin because i no longer own it 02:45:59 wow does that spacing look ugly 02:46:03 who does? 02:46:06 -!- BlueProtoman has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:46:06 freenode-staff 02:46:08 ais523: that's an incorrect use of [...], btw 02:46:16 ais523: i agree. double-spacing is atrocious 02:46:26 elliott: I was just fixing quintopia's quote 02:46:35 it means "out of context things elided", right? 02:46:43 yes, but in this case all that was elided is more has 02:46:47 I am going to maintain that those has belonged to three different conversations 02:46:50 and it's a verbatim quote if you just remove the [...] 02:46:58 and also less awkward 02:47:00 ais523: i want it to mean "this went on for a while" 02:47:03 not in a particularly predictable interleaving, either 02:47:07 `revert 02:47:08 Done. 02:47:15 just put more ha lines in there 02:47:15 elliott is right that it isn't really needed, though 02:47:21 so it edges up to the length limit 02:47:22 how many will fit 02:47:23 and it will be clear 02:47:24 `addquote ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:47:27 847) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Stop repeating yourself so much all at once 02:47:27 quintopia: idk, HackEgo is a bit conservative 02:47:31 elliott: no, then `quote will become a bit useless 02:47:32 i think that is probably enough has 02:47:34 if it picks that quote 02:47:49 this argument has gone on longer than the has 02:47:54 and is less cool 02:48:20 i personally think that `quote is already useless. the function in OTHER channels serves to memorialize quotes forever. #esoteric's quote is so impermanent... 02:48:24 so, where's that bot that kicked anyone if they repeated a line that had been said before in the history of the channel ever? 02:48:39 #xkcd-signal 02:48:41 on foonetic 02:48:51 quintopia: lambdabot's quotes can also be removed, iirc 02:48:53 heh, I get the name 02:48:54 ais523: i tried to set that up on #esoteric 02:49:00 for some reason lament would not op it 02:49:01 do people talk there much? 02:49:08 also it segfaulted (it's a perl program) when processing the logs 02:49:22 eh, mostly people just come in and play with the bot for a while 02:49:26 does it use extensions written in C? 02:49:32 no 02:49:33 pure perl 02:49:36 quintopia: that rather defeats the point of signal, I guess 02:49:37 elliott: ouch 02:49:46 `quote 02:49:47 `quote 02:49:47 `quote 02:49:48 `quote 02:49:49 for a while there was a "counting up" movement...see how many verses of 9999 bottles could be got in 02:49:50 `quote 02:49:55 492) Taneb's been hit by melancholy. He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y 02:50:00 726) I hate you. 02:50:08 `quote 　 02:50:08 553) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] @messages quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell 02:50:08 703) Dinner? At two? It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight. 02:50:08 quintopia: missing out the third line, I take it? 02:50:12 362) [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame. 02:50:12 ion: no! 02:50:12 No output. 02:50:14 it's five 02:50:15 553 is awesome 02:50:15 always five 02:50:16 what 02:50:18 no output? 02:50:18 aargh 02:50:20 abort misison 02:50:20 really really awesome 02:50:21 ais523: a channel cannot survive if it is just a gimmick 02:50:23 `quote 02:50:24 `quote 02:50:26 `quote 02:50:26 138) Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on 02:50:28 `quote 02:50:30 `quote 02:50:33 403) Sanity is insufficient by itself. Many other things are also important. 02:50:37 665) elliott: young john soon afterward receives as a visitor a fnord spaniard, fnord de moncada, who has escaped from fnord fnord dissolved in the absolute. 02:50:39 275) Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice. 02:50:45 350) yeah the designers of the C++ template system really should have done a better job considering input s/done a better job considering input/been shot/ 02:50:59 665 is protected 02:51:04 350 is not that good 02:51:10 275 is good 02:51:15 elliott: there were five /before/ the no output 02:51:15 403 is good idk 02:51:21 monqy, elliott has been updated 02:51:30 `quote    02:51:31 ais523: all those ones were good even 726 02:51:32 No output. 02:51:33 let's just try again 02:51:34 `delquote 350 02:51:38 ​*poof* yeah the designers of the C++ template system really should have done a better job considering input s/done a better job considering input/been shot/ 02:51:38 oh 02:51:39 ok 02:51:39 ais523: a channel cannot survive if it is just a gimmick <-- #irp still exists, doesn't it? 02:51:48 oerjan: it's a honeypot for Reddit 02:51:50 ais523: i liked that one because it reminds me of chris :'( 02:51:58 or at least meant to be, sometimes actual conversation happens there 02:52:00 `quote 02:52:01 `quote 02:52:01 `quote 02:52:02 `quote 02:52:04 `quote 02:52:09 oerjan: exists? yes. but no more signally than #xkcd-signal 02:52:09 603) fizzie: it doesn't *use* raw cgi. to my deep fnord i'm only fnord of the job description. it's badly fnord also. 02:52:10 712) WTF is it with people with Irish names and logic? 02:52:20 752) There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose. 02:52:20 739) Note that the previous quote is, in fact, correctly spaced. 02:52:23 255) OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension 02:52:32 `quote 738 02:52:35 738) oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? fizzie: +47 oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. I... guess you are geographically, too. 02:52:49 is 739 out of context? 02:52:52 meanwhile in #irp 02:52:54 03:52 say "ha" 02:52:56 03:52 say "ha" 02:52:58 03:52 say "ha" 02:53:00 03:52 say "ha" 02:53:02 03:52 say "ha" 02:53:04 03:52 say "ha" 02:53:06 03:52 say "ha" 02:53:07 :( 02:53:08 03:52 say "ha" 02:53:12 no 02:53:14 note the extra space after the ? 02:53:16 fizzie does that sometimes 02:53:26 right, there are three 02:53:32 At least it’s not before the ? 02:53:39 enigma has different floors ! 02:53:55 (sadly, that's a mutated version, the original line wasn't punctuated) 02:54:11 who here hasn't watched the /worst advert ever/? 02:54:30 well, probably there are worse ones, but the Enigma one is pretty bad :) 03:01:28 Does a mathematical equation have intelligent thoughts? 03:03:08 Only when evaluated 03:03:38 `quote 03:03:38 `quote 03:03:39 `quote 03:03:40 `quote 03:03:42 `quote 03:03:48 735) [...] we choose only die fittest people of nigeria [...] 03:03:51 179) I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities. 03:04:00 676) ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or" 03:04:01 388) " elliott: Americans also have 20 mile one-way commutes." <<< one-way commutes? you have like disposable jobs? 03:04:03 361) [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame. 03:04:15 361 03:04:19 agreed 03:04:31 was about to say 03:04:42 `delquote 361 03:04:45 ​*poof* [...] I'm not very well-versed in lame. 03:04:47 `quote 03:04:49 `quote 03:04:49 `quote 03:04:50 `quote 03:04:51 `quote 03:04:55 562) elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want. 03:05:00 333) 3 = 7/2 03:05:07 730) DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage 03:05:11 250) HELLWORLD! It's like HELLO WORLD, except not *quite*. There is more agony. 03:05:11 407) im going to resurrect rutian with vitamin pills and book sales 03:05:39 imo 730 03:05:40 or 333 03:05:51 i have a sense 730 must be out of context 03:06:45 333 is only good if interpreted as a Forte command 03:06:47 !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/dMfg 03:06:56 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.7 03:06:59 lol 03:07:02 quintopia: what did you change? 03:07:23 it improved his by .2 points! i just changed the very first line 03:07:23 `quote mountain cottage 03:07:23 and ripping off other people's programs from the top of the hill is a little antisocial 03:07:26 730) DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage 03:07:34 `log mountain cottage 03:07:35 `delquote 730 03:07:35 ais523: he agreed to it in advance 03:07:47 ​*poof* DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage 03:07:53 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:08:04 ais523: he will resubmit his with my changes when he returns 03:08:06 No output. 03:08:21 !bfjoust dwdmodtest < 03:08:24 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0 03:08:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 03:08:28 `log mountain cottage 03:08:41 2012-05-31.txt:03:07:47: ​*poof* DeadlyFugu: the kind of aids you get in a mountain cottage 03:08:53 `pastelogs mountain cottage 03:09:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1570 03:09:57 @tell david_werecat you can beat elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator by changing the first line to >+++>->>> 03:09:57 Consider it noted. 03:09:58 Consider it noted. 03:10:04 :'( 03:10:08 hahahaha 03:10:11 ais523: that thutubot 03:10:54 ah it was my attempt to interpret the `words output saeteraids as a norwegian word 03:11:22 `quote 03:11:23 `quote 03:11:24 `quote 03:11:25 `quote 03:11:26 `quote 03:11:30 697) myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die. 03:11:34 786) then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context 03:11:36 625) Real Tar is GNU tar. You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. 03:11:41 375) are there boobs you wack and squeeze around to move the mouse? [...] like those little nipples in laptop keyboards, but they'd be full-blown boobies 03:11:41 265) Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing. 03:11:55 !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/dMfg 03:11:59 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.7 03:12:01 imo 375 or 265 or 786 03:12:07 !bfjoust dwdmodtest < 03:12:09 !bfjoust 03:12:09 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0 03:12:10 ​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 03:12:12 argh 03:12:13 put it back 03:12:15 i wanna see report 03:12:30 !help bfjoust 03:12:30 ​Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust! 03:12:34 yes you do! 03:13:17 quintopia: ^ 03:13:48 786 isn't particularly funny 03:13:51 elliott: you could just run it locally? 03:14:02 oerjan: it's another of those never-forget types of quote 03:14:06 i'd have to download the whole hill and ugh 03:14:09 elliott: http://sprunge.us/BFXU 03:14:11 elliott: it's in hg 03:14:17 quintopia: thx 03:14:22 ais523: i'd have to download the software come on 03:14:41 you mean you don't have a local interp already? 03:14:42 the only thing that it doesn't beat with that change is insidious 03:14:44 I thought you /wrote/ one 03:15:09 quintopia: does it actually beat anticipation? rather than just hitting cases that were removed to save space? 03:15:13 ais523: how does insidious work again? 03:15:27 ais523: i don't understand anticipation dude :P 03:15:38 if it beats it on both polarities, it's probably actually beating it 03:15:56 and insidious works by rushing to its flag before it sets any decoys 03:16:09 by ignoring the trail 03:16:21 as i recall, all versions of dreadnought lose to anticipation on one polarity on long tapes 03:16:30 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:16:39 elliott: 625 03:16:50 no 03:16:54 yep, that should be both polarities, but I had to remove cases to fit it within size limits 03:17:01 `quote 03:17:02 `quote 03:17:03 `quote 03:17:03 `quote 03:17:03 you can tell if anticipation's hit a missing case if it just stands there and does nothing 03:17:05 `quote 03:17:12 443) (I don't include needing to use an object-oriented view of things as a reason to use C++, as C is better at that) 03:17:13 when you'd expect it to be doing something 03:17:14 550) Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident. 03:17:24 248) !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000 probably will suck Score for Vorpal_test: 30.4 what 03:17:25 619) never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg 03:17:26 127) but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well 03:17:53 imo 443 03:19:04 what is the space limitation. 03:19:15 is it a nest-depth limitation. 03:19:48 why does anticipation set all tripwires and flag to 14 03:19:54 what is special about that number 03:21:10 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:21:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:21:30 -!- Patashu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:21:40 -!- Patashu has joined. 03:22:14 nothing, they just have to all be the same number 03:22:14 elliott: agreed 03:22:14 `delquote 443 03:22:14 `delquote 8080 03:22:14 wat 03:22:17 No output. 03:22:28 ​*poof* (I don't include needing to use an object-oriented view of things as a reason to use C++, as C is better at that) 03:23:00 `quote 03:23:01 `quote 03:23:01 `quote 03:23:02 `quote 03:23:04 `quote 03:23:08 ais523: with the change to line 1 of dreadnought, it beats insidious on long tapes on one polarity. makes me wonder... 03:23:10 729) is there any evidence that Jesus knew the rules of tic-tac-toe? 03:23:15 768) what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back 03:23:22 644) Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading. 03:23:23 722) I have a program to tell you how far away Jupiter is. It is 4.33 units far. 03:23:24 119) alise, marble marbelus 03:23:32 elliott: that `delquote 8080 is just proof that ais523 will invent feather. 03:23:39 quintopia: it does that anyway, it's just hitting a case that was omitted to save space 03:23:57 ais523: i said insidious, not anticipation 03:24:04 oh, right 03:24:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:24:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:24:12 imo 644 or 119 03:24:31 elliott: right, 644 I was surprised wasn't zzo38 03:24:39 722 is pretty awesome even if it means AU 03:24:49 and I don't get 119 03:25:00 !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/DCTQ 03:25:02 so I think we're agreed 03:25:09 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 70.8 03:25:19 on which two we don't like 03:25:21 someone else break the tie 03:25:23 ais523: don't you see what a marbelus quote it is? 03:25:23 119 is so stupid that it can't really be deleted 03:25:24 It is AU 03:25:27 `delquote 644 03:25:30 ​*poof* Magnetic butterfly is slower than cat and restarting if you make a mistake is slower than vi is slower than mind-reading. 03:25:38 wololo...now it beats everything but atehwa_test_blah 03:25:45 who would ahve thought 03:26:07 -!- Gregor has quit (Excess Flood). 03:26:12 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:26:28 wow 03:26:32 !bfjoust 03:26:32 ​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 03:26:33 Jupiter is now 5.99 AU from the Earth 03:26:44 ais523: did quintopia just break BF Joust? 03:27:11 I doubt it, beat-everything programs have happened before 03:27:36 I could constant-tweak anticipation to beat it pretty easily, although it's counter-beatable 03:28:10 it looks like atehwa_test_blah and insidious differ in exactly the right ways to make them hard to beat simultaneously 03:28:56 !bfjoust insidious_2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*40<(+)*40(>)*9((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>((+)*10[-{[+++]}>])%300])%305])%302])%308])%304])%301])%309]>{}]>]>)%20)*21 03:28:58 ​Score for ais523_insidious_2: 7.1 03:29:03 take that dwdmodtest 03:29:12 (OK, I doubt that beats anything else…) 03:30:04 wait no, loses to dwdmodtest on every length 03:30:10 I must have screwed something up somewhere 03:30:19 !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/BDQJ 03:30:21 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 68.2 03:30:29 weird 03:30:40 oh, indeed 03:31:00 now it beats everything BUT dreadnought :P 03:31:03 well 03:31:08 i think that makes it an improvement 03:31:19 !bfjoust inisidious2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21 03:31:22 ​Score for ais523_inisidious2: 30.9 03:31:23 that's the old one, IIRC 03:31:52 uh 03:32:03 now there is an insidious2 and an insidious_2 on the hill 03:32:07 same score, identical 03:32:42 how insidious 03:33:36 @tell david_werecat changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought 03:33:45 oh 03:33:48 lambdadied 03:33:49 :( 03:34:02 your previous message may have been lost 03:34:05 !bfjoust insidious2 < 03:34:07 ​Score for ais523_insidious2: 0.0 03:34:13 !bfjoust insidious_blatant_constant_tweaking >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(>)*4(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>(-)*100([-{[+++]}>])%301])%305])%307])%304])%302])%303])%306]>{}]>]>)%20)*21 03:34:16 ​Score for ais523_insidious_blatant_constant_tweaking: 7.4 03:34:42 !irp tell david_werecat when he comes around again "changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought" 03:35:08 quintopia: huh? that should lose to undermine 03:35:12 unless I screwed up somewhere in that 03:35:17 Once very long time ago, someone who didn't know much about computers asked me to write a program to calculate the distance from here to the moon. Now, I have a program that does that and more. 03:35:31 and blatant_constant_tweaking beats dwdmodtest on long tapes 03:35:49 beats undermine on every length and polarity 03:36:30 oh, I see 03:36:40 tweaks I made to undermine to beat other things cause it to lose against the current version 03:38:17 -!- lambdabot has joined. 03:38:59 yay 03:39:01 quintopia: 03:39:07 ais523: do you have a saved copy of dwdmodtest? i'm about to suicide it 03:39:11 !bfjoust undermine_simple (>)*6(>[[>]>((-)*100[-]>)*21])*21 03:39:12 thx elliott 03:39:13 ​Score for ais523_undermine_simple: 12.4 03:39:16 @tell david_werecat changing the first line to >>>+++>---> beats everything on the hill except dreadnought 03:39:16 Consider it noted. 03:39:17 Consider it noted. 03:39:22 quintopia: not saved, although I have one open in egojsout atm 03:39:32 ais523: good enough? 03:39:39 quintopia: oh, and undermine_simple also beats dwdmodtest 03:39:46 good enough (it's also in the hg history) 03:39:49 cool 03:40:08 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:40:21 dwdmodtest is very easy to beat 03:40:28 the issue is beating it with a program that can beat other things too 03:40:41 !bfjoust dwdmodtest < 03:40:43 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0 03:40:54 remember that dwdmodtest is just dreadnought :P 03:41:09 it is a very good combination of strategies all-in-all 03:41:13 !bfjoust undermine_simple (>)*6(>[[>]>([(-)*100[-]]>)*21])*21 03:41:15 ​Score for ais523_undermine_simple: 21.2 03:41:17 obvious bug fixed :) 03:42:53 as usual, undermine works better at beating my programs than anyone else's 03:44:22 our playing appears to have pushed elliott off the hill 03:44:28 noooooo 03:45:43 i expect this will lose to *something*... 03:45:48 !bfjoust dwdmodtest http://sprunge.us/PgTf 03:45:52 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 67.7 03:46:10 only dreadnought 03:46:17 what's the first line? 03:46:30 >+>->+++>---> 03:46:48 was that just a blatant counter-undermining fix? 03:46:58 yeah :P 03:47:10 but it doesnt hurt it against anything else on the hill afaict 03:47:13 so, why not? 03:47:52 !bfjoust dwdmodtest < 03:47:55 ​Score for quintopia_dwdmodtest: 0.0 03:51:42 i think there is a bug on the hill? insidious2 didn't get killed. :/ 03:51:45 GREGOR 03:51:49 :/ 03:52:03 !bfjoust insidious2 < 03:52:06 ​Score for ais523_insidious2: 0.0 03:52:11 could have been race condition 03:52:52 looks like someone'll have to remove it manually 03:54:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:56:04 !bfjoust counterpoke >>>>>([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*8(>++++[-])*21]>)*8([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*9(>++++[-])*21]>)*8([<<<(-)*70<(+)*70<(+)*70(>)*10(>++++[-])*21]>)*8 03:56:06 ​Score for ais523_counterpoke: 18.9 03:56:14 also beats dwdmodtest, naturally 03:56:22 and that's a strategy I haven't seen before, I just invente dit 03:56:24 *invented it 04:00:01 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 04:03:29 i wondered if there was a targeted counter-poke type thing 04:03:49 this one still needs work 04:04:01 and probably a code generator 04:04:12 the idea is that you can tell, from where the opponent is poking, a range in which their flag might be 04:04:18 also you can set decoys behind where they poked 04:05:17 yeah makes sense. only works for pokes that leaves trails i assume? 04:05:38 yeah 04:05:44 or if you happen to catch them in the act of adjusting the current cell to test its value, for a slow poke 04:05:44 atehwa_test_blah beats it 04:08:31 hmm, tweaked it, it now wins against your test program on every tape length but 10 04:09:06 eh 04:09:16 let me know when you've added the cool ais523 stuff to it :P 04:09:28 I'm still working on the general rush algorithm 04:09:37 I'll add a decent clear loop to it later, if I remember 04:10:58 put the tweak on the hill 04:12:01 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:12:22 !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/XJXd 04:12:24 I was still working on it 04:12:30 ​Score for ais523_counterpoke: 22.6 04:12:34 it doesn't follow an easily compressible pattern any more, although it is a very simple one 04:12:48 yeah bfj needs more syntax :P 04:13:00 !bfjoust inisidious2 < 04:13:03 ​Score for ais523_inisidious2: 0.0 04:13:08 it was just a misspelling :) 04:13:23 ooh, counterpoke beats ffspg 04:13:56 and dreadnought, and juggernaut 04:14:10 wait a sec 04:14:11 (and scores a perfect 42 against your tweaked dreadnought) 04:14:19 that is just a regular poke! 04:14:25 and slowpoke 04:14:37 no it isn't, look at the decoy setup 04:14:43 regular pokes start building from their flag 04:15:08 this one puts a huge decoy at every location a typical poke would check, and none at every location a typical poke wouldn't 04:15:18 poke says nothing about decoys... 04:15:21 also, regular pokes start checking just beyond the location they check 04:15:31 this skips a distance forwards from there depending on the tape length 04:15:39 counter-rule-of-nining the enemy poke 04:16:02 oh that's cool too 04:16:13 but not all pokes leave decoys 04:16:24 space_elevator leaves small ones intermittently 04:16:32 test_blah leaves none 04:16:35 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:17:02 counterpoke /beats/ space_elevator :) 04:17:06 * ais523 goes off to check how 04:17:13 yes i assume so 04:17:25 i'm just saying, counter_poke looks a lot like poke :P 04:17:41 it is a poke too 04:17:46 just one tuned to counter other pokes 04:17:54 than one tuned to counter traditional decoy setups, like regular pokes do 04:17:58 but that's a good idea i never thought of 04:18:10 I'm actually surprised pokes do so well, given how easy it is to simply drop a forward decoy 04:18:15 to start from the *next* cell after the one the poke got to 04:18:25 does anyone do that? 04:19:13 oh, I've been doing that for ages 04:19:21 triple_tripwire_avoider, etc 04:19:26 just not normally combined with a poke 04:19:37 right 04:19:39 i mean 04:19:45 has anyone done it with a poke 04:19:54 I don't think so 04:20:07 also, most things that did that skipped forwards a fixed distance, rather than basing it on tape length 04:21:18 it seems like the time might have come... 04:23:41 !bfjoust dwdtripskip http://sprunge.us/VMXB 04:23:49 ​Score for quintopia_dwdtripskip: 63.6 04:25:32 it beats anticipation on both polarities (as expected?) 04:25:54 !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/MGcM 04:25:57 ​Score for ais523_counterpoke: 27.0 04:26:44 some tweaks to make it weaker against pokes but stronger against rushes 04:27:38 amusingly, it draws against poke 04:29:15 which is just zero-checking so there's no way it can tell where the opposing pointer is 04:29:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:30:59 !bfjoust counterpoke http://sprunge.us/afcb 04:31:03 ​Score for ais523_counterpoke: 29.1 04:31:10 and that has some improvements against defence on long tapes 04:31:24 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:31:41 !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [>[+]] 04:31:44 ​Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 12.3 04:31:53 I have no idea what happened. 04:31:59 shachaf: that's, umm, not a very good program 04:32:03 !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [>>[+]] 04:32:06 ​Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 12.3 04:32:09 :-( 04:32:13 you can try [>[+]+] so you aren't breaking out of your own loop 04:32:28 !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [[+]>] 04:32:29 !bfjoust null . 04:32:32 ​Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 17.3 04:32:32 ​Score for ais523_null: 13.3 04:32:38 HAH 04:32:43 * shachaf totally beat ais523 04:32:45 null was not /meant/ to do well 04:32:53 and I'm getting 29.1 on counterpoke atm 04:32:55 Nor was my program! 04:32:59 And yet it did better than null 04:33:16 !bfjoust help_how_does_this_work [[+]>[+]>] 04:33:19 ​Score for shachaf_help_how_does_this_work: 17.5 04:33:40 so that's a vibration program (probably unintentionally) 04:33:40 I have no idea what's going on. 04:33:43 I should read the rules. 04:33:44 and not a very good one at that 04:34:23 hmm, counterpoke has a lot of potential, it mostly just needs a better clear loop, I think 04:34:46 although I'd prefer to give it enough of a decoy advantage that the clear loop's irrelevant 04:34:50 What's the best score ever gotten? 04:34:57 !bfjoust what_did_we_call_this (+)*-1 04:35:00 ​Score for ais523_what_did_we_call_this: 19.5 04:35:16 !bfjoust vibration (-)*128(+-)*-1 04:35:20 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 26.0 04:35:26 haha, vibration gets 26 nowadays? 04:35:33 people have been forgetting to build in protection against it :) 04:35:39 I guess it beats fast pokes half the time 04:36:24 http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/zoo-caretaker-licks-monkeys-butt-to-help-it-defecate.html 04:37:01 ais523_vibration.bfjoust vs quintopia_dwdtripskip.bfjous t>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -4 2ais523_vibration.bfjoust wins. 04:37:03 oh, obviously 04:37:03 That is a strange thing to do 04:37:26 yeah 04:37:39 wasn't thinking straight for a moment there 04:37:40 Does your program compete against all the other programs or what? 04:37:41 i didn't put any vibration protection on any of my poke programs :P 04:37:51 shachaf: it competes against a dynamic top N 04:38:16 well, anticipation is basically just a smarter vibration, is one way to think about it 04:38:46 theoretically, though, the poke should get to vibration's flag before it starts vibrating 04:39:28 that's a good point 04:39:39 !bfjoust vibration >>++<<(-)*128(+-)*-1 04:39:43 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 21.3 04:39:53 oh, because it no longer beats the tripskippers 04:40:01 :P 04:40:05 that's a more "honest" score than the previous one 04:40:09 though 04:40:18 !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*-1 04:40:21 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 23.9 04:40:42 !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*70000+(>)*8(>[---])*21 04:40:46 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 23.9 04:40:58 !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*4000+(>)*8(>[---])*21 04:41:01 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 26.6 04:41:02 err, I meant 40000 04:41:04 !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*40000+(>)*8(>[---])*21 04:41:07 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 26.5 04:41:09 not that it's likely to make /much/ difference 04:41:25 and now it's a constant-tweaking war against other defend-and-abandon programs 04:41:34 !bfjoust vibration >>+++<<(-)*128(+-)*23000+(>)*8(>[---])*21 04:41:35 hi 04:41:37 ​Score for ais523_vibration: 26.5 04:41:43 oh dear, I've been hi'd 04:42:07 vibration is now equal to triplock2 :) 04:42:24 elliott: we're busy trying to break BF Joust again 04:42:34 ok 04:42:35 defence might not work, but there still seems to be plenty of life in attack program variety 04:42:36 !bfjoust dwdtripskip < 04:42:39 ​Score for quintopia_dwdtripskip: 0.0 04:42:50 I found a generic way of beating all the slow poke programs that are dominating the hill 04:42:56 and it also works moderately well against fast rushes 04:43:17 but it's currently hovering at #25 04:43:24 despite beating many of the leaders 04:45:26 what happens if a program clears through to anticipation's flag, starts attacking it, and then abandons the attack after a while and goes off to play defense? does anticipation avoid suiciding? 04:46:01 yep 04:46:16 (+)*32(-)*32 can never two-cycle-zero a flag that wasn't 0 to start with 04:46:30 unless the program abandons at the exact right moment 04:46:51 it /might/ suicide on the unrelated grounds of running off the right end during its clear, though 04:47:00 if the opponent starts defending its flag (specifically) 04:47:46 !bfjoust inisidious_2 < 04:47:49 ​Score for ais523_inisidious_2: 0.0 04:47:51 !bfjoust insidious2 >>>>>++>>>>(([+[--[(<)*8(+)*50<(+)*50(>)*9([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>([-{[+++]}>])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300])%300]>{}]>]>)%20)*21 04:47:54 ​Score for ais523_insidious2: 31.8 04:47:54 let's fix the typo 04:48:31 hmm, I wonder what happens if I put the insidious clear loop in counterpoke? 04:50:14 !bfjoust counterpoke2 http://sprunge.us/HdeH 04:50:17 ​Score for ais523_counterpoke2: 21.5 04:50:22 !bfjoust counterpoke2 < 04:50:25 ​Score for ais523_counterpoke2: 0.0 04:50:26 thought that might happen 04:50:33 different programs need different clear loops 04:50:49 counterpoke wants a traditional-style one, I think 04:52:09 I'm interested in what clever method david_werecat or quintopia come up with to beat counterpoke 04:54:29 ais523: btw, what do you think of my idea to drop anything with negative points 04:54:30 no matter what score 04:54:34 to reduce some of the silly hill effects 04:55:01 elliott: then you'd lose half the programs with each iteration 04:55:12 there aren't that many 04:55:20 ais523: the obvious counter to counterpoke is put a decoy near your flag before beginning a trail-free poke. 04:55:26 or to put it another way, you need bad programs for the good programs to compare against to show that they're good 04:55:27 I made up a program to access the entire CP437 graphics by Linux 04:55:43 quintopia: right, indeed 04:55:52 zzo38: doesn't the Linux console do that by default, if you send it the right escape codes? 04:56:19 ais523: No, there are some it won't; and as far as I can see the default font does not even include all of them. 04:56:45 (Also, this is non-Unicode mode. Unicode mappings are still required, though, even if it is not Unicode) 04:57:12 elliott: i think the silly hill effects could be reduced by permanently freezing a short list of "champions" to stay on the hill forever, even if they suck. it would mean that good programs would *always* have to think about all the strategies out there to be good. 04:57:28 quintopia: i strongly dislike that 04:57:31 it messes with the metagame 04:57:39 any previous winner, perhaps? 04:57:43 but yes, I like the fluid metagame 04:57:52 counterpoke is likely to get better over time just because people keep making pokes ;) 04:58:05 elliott: i thought the metagame was what you meant by "silly hill effects" 04:58:20 well the silly hill effects are what messes with the metagame :P 04:58:26 The one I did it, works with VT100 graphics as well. When shift in, all the printable characters correspond to their CP437 character with that code. When shift out they differ, but the VT100 box-drawing graphics work as expected and others fill in for the codes that cannot normally be printed. 04:59:23 elliott: well, its not like the old standbys won't find their way back onto the hill anyway. people re-add the classics every so often just to see how they stack up against the new flock. so there's no point in *actually* freezing them there. 04:59:47 It includes a Unicode mapping file and a shell script. The shell script also turns off Unicode and sets the locale to C locale (although the environment variable cannot be set if run in a sub process) 04:59:58 elliott: hmm, would you freeze something like vibration? 05:00:03 it never /should/ do very well 05:00:06 but sometimes it does anyway 05:00:26 ais523: Do you have Linux, if so, what distribution and what default fonts and console modes they use? 05:00:33 I wouldn't freeze anything 05:00:36 zzo38: I'm using Ubuntu Precise at the moment 05:00:46 I'm not sure what the console fonts on the Linux console is 05:01:11 I use DejaVu Sans Mono in the X terminal, but that's not the default any more 05:01:38 Does the console bell work? 05:01:54 I turned it off 05:01:55 so no 05:02:06 How does it turn on? 05:02:25 hey ais523 should i sleep 05:02:50 zzo38: I just turned on all the visible bell settings I could find 05:02:59 presumably it'd work if you turned them all off 05:03:17 Why do you ask other people if you should sleep? Figure out by yourself! Look at clock, look on outside, know if you are tired, know if you are appointment, and figure out by yourself please 05:03:43 elliott: are you appointment? 05:03:48 ais523: On the computers at FreeGeek I try the console bell it doesn't work 05:03:57 ais523: that's a very philosophical question 05:04:03 am i appointment? am i indeed. 05:04:19 zzo38: I think the kernel module for it was disabled by default, because shutdown(8) causes a beep via the kernel, and they couldn't figure out how to stop it 05:04:33 * quintopia looks at clock, clock looks back 05:04:38 (which is ridiculous…) 05:04:54 ais523: i'm not appointment no 05:05:04 I think the shutdown should beep by default, anyways 05:05:12 elliott: do you have anything you want to achieve right now? 05:05:15 i think computers should never beep 05:05:16 ever 05:05:23 except to notify me of irc pings 05:05:27 do you have anything you want to achieve tomorrow? 05:05:48 I always have things I want to achieve! 05:06:04 do you think you're more likely to achieve them if you sleep first? 05:06:24 probably, but sleeping is a lot of work 05:06:35 > 6 + 8 05:06:38 14 05:06:40 thank you lambdabot 05:06:48 do you find it easy to sleep, when you want to? 05:07:00 No. :-( 05:07:06 also, slep at 6, wake at 14, is perfectly respectable 05:07:09 Sleeping is horrible. 05:07:22 instead of sleep i could watch awful iphone adverts 05:07:22 http://www.apple.com/iphone/videos/#tv-ads-joke 05:07:26 Get a paper write down anything you dream about. And then, if you don't like it, cut off the parts you dislike 05:07:32 (my browser opens to an apple.com start page because i'm too lazy to change it) 05:09:49 elliott: heh, I manually set my homepage to about:blank 05:09:59 well, normally 05:10:10 I also prefer it to be set to about:blank 05:10:17 perhaps I'll set Chromium's to YouTube, as I don't use it for anything but heavily Flash-dependent or video-dependent websites 05:10:44 hwn day and all my haskell answers get upvoted 05:11:43 -!- Kray has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:12:10 As far as I can tell, the default Linux console font is not based on CP437; it is Latin-1, Cyrillic, and VT100 box-drawing 05:14:13 zzo38: not the default one 05:14:18 there's one you can load using escape codes 05:14:41 ESC ( U apparently 05:15:20 Or at least, it is the one set in the computer at FreeGeek that I have used, which is this. 05:15:35 ESC ( U does not set the font, it only sets the translation table 05:19:36 ah, OK 05:21:36 ais523: should i sl;ep 05:21:50 elliott: I think so, you may have more ideas about what else to do when you wake up 05:22:00 and I often sleep around now 05:22:15 and wake up at a reasonable time (i.e. early afternoon) and am refreshed 05:22:28 i don't do the refreshed thing 05:22:32 i do the waking up drowsy thing 05:22:49 you're refreshed an hour or so /after/ you wake up 05:22:52 you have to wake up gradually 05:22:56 I can take hours to wake up sometimes 05:23:20 !bfjoust test http://sprunge.us/cTQH 05:23:22 ​Score for quintopia_test: 33.5 05:23:44 !bfjoust test < 05:23:46 ​Score for quintopia_test: 0.0 05:24:00 -!- Kray has joined. 05:24:02 the time has not come :P 05:25:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_binary#DOS 05:25:36 An application for polyglots! 05:26:31 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:28:00 -!- rvchangue_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:28:43 `quote monqy.*explode 05:28:48 830) imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. that's what it's like for people who hit you 05:34:51 `run echo "quote monqy" > bin/quonqy; chmod +x bin/quonky 05:34:53 chmod: cannot access `bin/quonky': No such file or directory 05:35:00 `run ls 05:35:03 bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom 05:35:08 `run ls bin 05:35:11 ​? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quonqy \ quote \ quotes \ randomanonlog \ roll \ searchlog 05:35:23 `rm bin/quonky 05:35:23 `run pwd 05:35:26 rm: cannot remove `bin/quonky': No such file or directory 05:35:39 `rm bin/quonqy 05:35:40 ​/hackenv 05:35:45 No output. 05:36:06 I don't get what's going on, but I knew you would do that. 05:36:21 `run echo "quote shachaf" > bin/quachaf 05:36:23 No output. 05:36:26 `run chmod +x bin/quachaf 05:36:27 `rm bin/quachaf 05:36:28 No output. 05:36:28 `quachaf 05:36:36 No output. 05:36:53 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/quachaf: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/quachaf: cannot execute: Permission denied 05:36:58 `run bash -c 'echo "quote shachaf" > bin/quachaf; chmod +x bin/quachaf' 05:37:02 `quachaf 05:37:03 No output. 05:37:03 `quachaf 05:37:15 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quachaf: not found 05:37:29 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quachaf: not found 05:37:52 elliott thinks he can just do whatever he pleases. 05:38:01 i can 05:38:07 Master of all he/she/it beholds 05:39:23 goodnight 05:39:32 ais523: ban EgoBot 05:39:41 why? 05:39:45 ais523: Ban me instead! 05:39:52 ais523: have fun 05:39:54 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:41:44 -!- rvchangue has joined. 05:44:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:41:43 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:44:27 -!- nooga has joined. 06:54:37 -!- aloril has joined. 07:04:30 Can a computer think? Can a submarine swim? 07:06:12 No. No. 07:09:13 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:09:16 Hello 07:11:24 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:34:29 Son of a submariner! 07:35:35 -!- cswords_ has joined. 07:38:05 http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html *cough*assholes*cough* 07:38:47 -!- cswords__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:46:30 pikhq, Microsoft or Red Hat? 07:47:18 Gregor: annoying and ultimately pointless ping 07:48:37 Taneb: All of the above. 07:50:03 -!- const has changed nick to trout. 07:53:12 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:55:25 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 08:05:41 hummm 08:05:54 i don't understand the issues involved but it can't end well 08:06:47 they should have done a kickstarter on this linux key thing :-D 08:07:36 itidus21: Basically, Microsoft is strongarming vendors into supporting kernel signature verification... 08:07:46 The issue is, this is a *huge* step towards non-general computing. 08:08:18 Much like the fucking iPod. 08:08:55 i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed 08:08:59 Although it'll apparently be trivial *now*, you'll have to *root your own damned PC* to use a kernel Microsoft's not signed on. 08:09:37 and in the same way, microsoft's capacity to strongarm vendors probably isn't going away for the forseeable future 08:10:03 * pikhq curses the US DoJ a bit for good measure 08:10:08 but it appears there is a positive feedback on microsofts capacity to strongarm.. since it is apparently getting better at it 08:10:27 "We find Microsoft to be an illegal monopoly! And fine them some pocket lint." 08:14:48 I think the bestest thing is that that while on x86 they went the "there must be a way for the user to add custom keys" route, possibly because of all the complaints, on ARM their requirements for "Windows 8 hardware" are the exact opposite: it must not be capable of running anything else than Windows in any way. 08:15:02 fizzie: Worse still. 08:15:16 Windows on ARM can't run anything but Microsoft-signed Metro programs. 08:15:31 maybe non-linux using people should just boycott windows 8 08:15:44 Or Microsoft-signed Win32 programs, but only Microsoft will make Microsoft-signed Win32 programs. 08:16:00 (did someone say "antitrust"? ... Oh, fuck, that doesn't matter, I'm going to drink myself into a stupor) 08:16:28 itidus21: Thankfully, Metro is a very poorly designed interface and they're trying to cram it in there, so I wouldn't be surprised to find Win8 flopping. 08:16:56 well i would like to think noone needs Win8 08:17:39 quintopia: wooooooo has somebody been trying out my redcode?-) 08:17:43 Microsoft's got much the same problem now they had with Vista. The previous version is good enough. 08:18:01 maybe one day apple will compete head to head against microsoft on the same hardware 08:18:05 that could be fun 08:18:12 quintopia: oh, I misremembered: not redcode warrior, but a bf one 08:18:44 Gregor: unping 08:19:12 itidus21: Would require more balls than they have, and Microsoft's non-general computers have removed the window for that. 08:22:38 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:24:06 prepare for more nonsense.. this parody disclaimer brought to you by the good folks at schweppes australia! 08:26:34 bots know that servers need to stay online. virus-writers know that users need to return to the internet daily. companies know that customers need upgrades and updates. 08:27:04 in other words if people could be contented to stay offline and never upgrade or update their pc then there'd be no problems 08:28:16 Except that people would be offline 08:28:22 as someone once explained to me such things would be homeostasis, which isn't realistically possible or good 08:28:24 Which means my life would be a bit boring-er 08:28:51 you're right.. the benefits outweigh the costs 08:30:36 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 08:33:53 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:43:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:44:23 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 08:48:10 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:31:50 pikhq, by the way, the weird consonant in my "eighths" is half-way between a g and a k, it seems 09:40:22 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 10:03:07 My plan to buy a computer has gone slightly awry 10:05:18 My plan to go to sleep at a reasonable hour has gone completely off. 10:05:42 Actually, hmm 10:05:49 It works out as 8 pounds cheaper 10:05:50 :) 10:15:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 10:15:34 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:27:52 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:53:48 -!- derdon has joined. 10:59:12 OK so I'm thinking DF's new migrant system may need a little tweaking. 10:59:24 I got 2 migrants, then 3, then 29. 11:04:58 I slaughtered 3 puppies so pikhq_ could make a dog bone crown. 11:23:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 11:26:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:26:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:29:12 Phantom_Hoover, yay, dead puppies everywhere 11:40:37 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:45:09 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 12:05:23 Made another pocket island, this time with 500 years of history and a few more civs. 12:07:43 There's an event called the Siege of Siezures. 12:08:10 :) 12:08:17 Oh, toady and threetoe 12:10:43 Oh wow. 12:11:08 Share 12:11:25 "The Singed War was waged by The Equal Desert on The Truthful Empire. One of the most significant causes of the conflict was a dispute over truthfulness." 12:11:43 The truthful empire sounds nice 12:12:06 They lost. 12:12:25 Equal empire: "We should tell the truth and lie EQUALLY! You must die for telling the truth too much!" 12:13:12 Also apparently one of the mainstays of The Equal Desert's army was giant ticks. 12:15:19 Tick as in the yes symbol or tick as in the parasite? 12:16:42 They didn't get up to much in the 5th millennium, though, so maybe they lost to someone else. 12:17:03 millennium!? 12:17:08 I thought you said 500 years? 12:18:12 5000. 12:18:19 They were still around in 4999, though. 12:18:45 Maybe they thought there were doing too many things, so stopped in the name of equality 12:20:09 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:20:36 They got the crap kicked out of them by The Contingent Keys back in The Age of Dragon and Hill Titan. 12:28:30 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 12:30:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:33:28 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:35:18 Helllo 12:35:42 -!- boily has joined. 12:36:50 There are fully ten books titled "The Dwarf The Easy Way", along with commentary in the form of "Before The Dwarf The Easy Way" and "The Dwarf The Easy Way: Fact Or Fiction?". 12:38:47 I need to try adventuring here. 12:39:00 I want to do the same but it keeps stopping at 30 years 12:39:12 Yeah, that caught me too. 12:39:27 Look for the options about megabeast percentage. 12:39:58 It's set to stop worldgen when 80% of the megabeasts are dead and 30 years have passed. 12:40:18 Got it 12:41:04 I normally don't really care for the history 12:41:09 I generally say 5 year history 12:41:32 Probably not a good idea these days, since migrant skills are built up during worldgen. 12:42:09 :/ 12:43:14 This may take a while 12:43:22 You probably have a better computer than me 12:44:03 Probably, given that I'm on Vax right now. 12:44:27 TbH almost everything interesting happens in the first millennium. 12:46:33 Vax, the vacuumy people? 12:47:37 Half way 12:47:45 2 fps 12:49:19 Seeing as it's now gone further than here has since the start of the Roman Kingdom 12:49:50 I may stop it at 3k 12:50:07 Vax as in the hoovers *and also* the old mainframes. 12:50:17 Im intellignet humour 12:52:25 Old mainframe versus New Laptop!? Who will win! 12:54:27 -!- nvt has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:54:46 It's on "Twilight Age" 12:54:49 3550 12:54:54 Has been for about 2 millenia 12:55:49 Ooh, I've not had that one. 12:56:00 Apparently it's when everyone sucks 12:56:03 The two I tried ended up in Golden Age and Age of the Dwarf. 12:56:37 The population is shrinking 12:56:53 I think 12:57:35 It's about 1900 and seems roughly stable 12:58:04 This history is definitely going to be interesting. 12:58:42 4000 12:58:48 years 12:59:20 1 FPS 12:59:49 It's just switched to the Second Twilight Age 12:59:55 And to the third 13:00:14 It's switching between fairy tales and twilight 13:00:34 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:01:32 "The Thirteenth Age of Fairy Tales" 13:01:42 *Fourteenth 13:02:19 ISTR that that indicates near-total dominance by a single race, possibly humans. 13:02:20 *Seventeenth 13:02:33 I thought it was very few mythological creatures 13:02:47 Depends how that's defined. 13:02:48 And what does ISTR stand for again? 13:02:54 I seem to recall. 13:02:57 Okay 13:03:20 Anyway it can't mean megabeasts, because the megabeasts die almost instantly on a pocket world. 13:03:21 -!- nvt has joined. 13:03:37 90%+ mundane creatures, but fantasy creatures are still about 13:04:21 Right, I'm going for 10000 years. 13:04:25 What're mundane? 13:04:29 I dunno 13:04:37 The example given is "human" 13:05:29 Got over a million events 13:05:31 Wow, goblins gained near-instant dominance. 13:05:37 !! 13:06:14 It's stuck at fairy tales now 13:07:47 It's up to the 3rd Golden Age. 13:07:59 17 is my record 13:08:07 For any age 13:08:09 Fairy tales 13:08:13 It's stuck 13:08:18 4935 13:09:13 5000! 13:10:01 Still 3rd Golden Age for me. 13:10:06 What year? 13:10:43 Wow, there was a golden age and I missed it 13:10:50 It's sorting the legends 13:13:02 Up to 3600 and still the effing Golden Age. 13:13:02 The big dwarf place got attacked by a monster's wife 13:13:06 I'm restarting this. 13:13:15 No! 13:13:36 Got the Age of Nutssnarling this time. 13:13:44 That alone makes it worthwhile. 13:16:57 DF froze 13:26:22 3rd Age of Goblins now. 13:36:28 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 13:38:20 -!- david_werecat has joined. 13:40:29 ...4th Age of Goblins. 13:50:11 I my me mind 13:50:16 *I my me mine 13:52:09 Yes Sgeo__ that makes so much more sense. 13:53:05 Phantom_Hoover, there's a video on YouTube of a goblin invasion set to that song 14:02:31 I've narrowed elliott's location down to two rough areas 14:02:46 Unfortunately, these amount to "Hexham" and "Outside of Hexham" 14:05:31 !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/a3bbb144/save.php?hash=adb838876e2902dbcf20f7ebd96e4408 14:05:31 david_werecat: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 14:05:34 ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9 14:06:16 I'm going mad 14:06:36 I just convinced myself the topic had the word "internatio:)nal" 14:08:41 hi david_werecat 14:08:50 Hello 14:08:55 -!- Taneb has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the internatio:)nal hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 14:09:02 I see the changes you made 14:09:03 NOW WHO'S MAD!? 14:09:23 >+>->++>--> seems to work the best 14:09:56 Worldgen is complete, in the 5th Age of Goblins! 14:10:07 !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/1328e20a/save.php?hash=cb611bb2a4eb7886b9284a83efd79878 14:10:11 ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9 14:10:55 david_werecat: as i made them, ais worked to conter them. that was fun. 14:11:04 `pastelogs <[E]goBot> Score for .*: 7[0-9] 14:11:40 hi gregor 14:11:42 No output. 14:11:48 Phantom_Hoover, yay! 14:11:52 That does sound fun. I see that the new antipoke program beats dreadnought. 14:12:01 yes 14:12:06 quintopia: Yes yes, it's broken, too bad, I don't have time to fix it right now. 14:12:16 g 14:12:24 whats broken? 14:12:28 i just woke up 14:12:32 quintopia: Whatever you were saying was broken last night. 14:12:35 oh 14:12:43 that was nothing 14:12:49 * Gregor is confused by that pastelogs giving no output... 14:13:30 `pastelogs [>] Score for .*: [7-9][0-9] 14:13:41 david_werecat: it could be modified to beat any poke program that leaves trails as it pokes 14:13:43 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6962 14:14:21 Hmmm. I'll check ou the animation on that. 14:14:26 *out* 14:14:47 YOU'RE WELCOME 14:15:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:16:53 I see why it wins. It leaves decoys that are too large for dreadnought to handle. 14:17:48 more than that...it always leaves them where you will encounter them 14:18:34 Ah, so that's why it beats dreadnought but not juggernaut 14:21:39 are you discussing counterpoke? 14:21:45 OK wait I'll actually check the history now. 14:21:48 Yes 14:22:04 Taneb, the Ages of Goblins are broken up by brief Golden Ages. 14:22:13 They fight back! 14:22:15 I think it's reasonably comprehensive at beating "anything even vaguely similar to dreadnaught" 14:22:28 this includes my slowpoke and Gregor's ffspg as well as dreadnaught 14:23:21 Seems that way. I could theoretically beat it by making several bigger decoys, but that would take dreadnought out of first place. 14:24:47 What program is this? 14:24:47 I'm not convinced making several bigger decoys /would/ beat it, unless you were careful about how you made them 14:24:49 Oddly enough all the dorf civs survived. 14:24:52 Gregor: counterpoke 14:25:07 The elves were wiped out in the first millennium, though. 14:26:02 Building 8 size 70 decoys might beat counterpoke, since it would slow it down by a lot. 14:26:14 I'm just not sure about different polarities. 14:26:45 if you're building 8 size 70 decoys, on tapes longer than 18 or so it's going to build more than 8 14:26:51 /and/ skip several of them 14:27:30 Also AFAICT one goblin civ kidnapped tens of dorf children a year. 14:27:34 Hm. That's now been made apparent looking at the animations. 14:27:43 *Definitely* need to start a fortress in this one. 14:28:58 Then I will put a convenient bin full of masterwork adamantine arms and armour behind a locked door, build a self-operating danger room, start an adventurer and cut every single goblin to pieces. 14:29:06 Though I guess the question now is, can that be made into a new #1 program? 14:29:38 I don't know 14:29:48 it's beating a lot of things, but still quite a way down the leaderboard 14:29:48 only if people keep making pokes that do well :P 14:30:08 I modified the second half of the program to do decently against rush too 14:30:31 it struggles against weirder tactics, although it confuses most of my defence stuff quite adequately because my defence stuff's never seen anything quite like it before 14:30:59 Phantom_Hoover, yesssss 14:31:15 I'm surprised it's not higher on the chart, given the number of wins it has. 14:31:39 indeed 14:31:45 it could be that a lot of them are quite close 14:32:04 it got a perfect 42 against quintopia's modification of your program (because it was supposed to :P), but most of its wins aren't so dramatic 14:33:25 Right now it's got a 38 against dreadnought, it seems to lose on tapes of length 30. 14:33:49 that's probably because it's incorrectly detecting rush rather than poke 14:34:00 on the basis that the poke's taking an awfully long time to detect 14:34:11 fixing that'd make it worse against all the rush programs, so I think this is a decent tradeoff 14:35:57 lol, I love how ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is still top 10 14:36:14 four is a very popular value :) 14:36:18 Another goblin civ has meanwhile declared war on the collective wildlife of the south. 14:37:15 I almost made a program a while ago that exploited the fact that most programs leave even numbers. 14:37:35 I love exploiting patterns like that 14:38:06 there was the whole turtle phenomenon (which has now mostly died down, to the extent that I don't even bother counter-turtling any more in rush programs) 14:38:32 This is like Pokémon all over again 14:38:42 I still tweak the flag to counter those 14:38:47 Rush is not very effective on turtle 14:38:51 I'm getting the sense that there are no actual goblins running the goblin civs these days. 14:38:52 david_werecat: how far? 14:39:01 By 3 ticks 14:39:02 All the abductions are by kidnapped humans. 14:39:05 a reasonable turtle will be able to beat small tweaks in the flag value 14:39:07 3 is probably not enough 14:39:14 Phantom_Hoover, reavers! 14:39:41 I also used 3 because it again leaves another odd number. 14:40:22 Actually, I'll check to see what happens when I change that to 5. 14:40:36 it'll slow down the program for no meaningful benefit, I imagine 14:40:41 23! 14:40:45 I typically use ranges of 8 or 16 either way when turtling 14:40:56 ais523: counterpoke could do better if it dinged its own flag more. careless clear owns it 14:41:10 quintopia: yes, I probably should 14:41:21 it wouldn't cost much to adjust it by even 30 or 40 or so 14:41:40 * ais523 tries to remember what a philip is 14:42:10 !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/897bccf7/save.php?hash=9ba085da526b684aa1046e0e418f7256 14:42:13 Looking at lists of historical figures shows no goblins at all at the end. 14:42:14 ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.3 14:42:35 Yeah, almost no difference. 14:42:37 So I'm getting the sense that the Ages of Goblins largely took place after goblins became extinct. 14:42:39 Phantom_Hoover, so... the goblins died out, but their civilization was mainly human? 14:42:51 !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/1328e20a/save.php?hash=cb611bb2a4eb7886b9284a83efd79878 14:42:54 ​Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9 14:43:02 Abducted humans, I think. 14:43:05 loses only to counterpoke and waterfall2 14:43:07 Or humans born into 'slavery'. 14:43:24 the slaves eventually outnumbered their masters and took over 14:43:55 that waterfall2 loss is probably coincidental and fixable with constant tweaking 14:43:59 FSVO 'took over'. 14:44:36 and again, doesn't legitimately beat anticipation, which I really need to find a better way to compress 14:45:04 Actually, I haven't done much tweaking with dreadnought. Maybe I should... 14:45:26 the waterfall series is in general very sensitive to tweaking everywhere 14:45:27 I'm just not sure how without reposting it a few thousand times. 14:45:32 I even wrote a genetic tweaker to help improve it 14:46:03 So yeah, filtering for 'Snodub', a goblin name, shows no goblins at all after the first century. 14:46:09 It took a while to beat the waterfall series. 14:46:12 you can grab the hill via hg, and use an offline client to do calculations 14:46:56 I don't have the time today, maybe later. 14:47:32 Although, writing a custom offline client sounds fun 14:47:51 I wrote one because the others were too slow or unreliable 14:48:01 this is amazing 14:48:39 and combined it with some scripts, and now it has a whole load of features telling you things like what's changed in terms of what you beat from last time you ran it, and its loss reasons broken down by type, program, length and polarity 14:48:57 -!- fizzie` has joined. 14:48:59 (incidentally, according to elliott, the polarities are called "sieve" and "kettle") 14:49:17 Impressive! Could that be used on any program? 14:49:51 I think so; it doesn't work on some of the things on the hill, I can't remember whether that's notation differences or something else, it's been a while 14:50:01 there are cornercases in whitespace, etc., that interps disagree on 14:51:03 I also noticed that different interpreters expand programs differently. 14:51:22 the best interpreters don't expand them at all, they run the expansions "mentally" to save memory 14:51:35 http://sprunge.us/RbWF 14:51:43 (runprog.sh, and juiced.c) 14:52:29 Thanks for the reference. 14:52:37 it even seems to use a sane indentation style 14:52:47 I must not have been in a trollish mood when I wrote it 14:52:59 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:54:28 One thing that I found odd about the current interpreter on the hill is that it won't accept something like ([+)*3(-)*4([-)2(])*5 14:54:45 It just give an unmatched brace error. 14:54:49 yes 14:54:52 that is on purpose 14:55:02 if you want to do that sort of thing, use ({})% 14:55:28 yep, (a{b}c)%d is equivalent to (a)*db(c)*d 14:55:45 except that it allows open brackets in part a to be matched by close brackets in part c 14:55:56 these rules are to make it possible to execute even large programs efficiently 14:56:03 s/efficiently/without expansion/ 14:56:12 expanding would be inefficient 14:56:16 ^ 14:56:22 Yes, but there are lots of other inefficiencies in the world ;) 14:56:37 well 14:56:45 we are amking it possible to execute them efficiently 14:56:49 not making it mandatory 14:56:52 Without expanding, the interpreter could store brace jumppoints in a stack rather than explicitly checking them. 14:57:14 Checking could be a single pass over the program at the start. 14:57:38 !bfjoust nonsense >([ [+++[(-[{>>>>[[-]>]}])%5]] ]+>)*21 14:57:41 ​Score for Gregor_nonsense: 3.2 14:58:00 Gregor: what was that about? 14:58:06 it looks sort-of like a serious program 14:58:10 but on closer inspection it can't be 14:58:13 Taneb, also, there is a 9700 year old goblin. 14:58:23 Aaaaaaaah what 14:58:26 Phantom_Hoover: I thought there weren't any goblins 14:58:45 ais523: It's beats dreadnaught by a narrow margin, and nothing else ;) 14:58:55 oh, I see 14:58:58 that's what the >>>> is for 14:59:04 I remember doing that in insidious at one point 14:59:13 ais523, there apparently are, they're just a tiny minority. 14:59:44 And *that* goblin was a slave of a human civ (as in human-human, not 'goblin'-human) who settled in a tomb for some reason. 14:59:50 And got married at the age of 191. 15:00:09 Aww, now I have two losses. 15:00:32 david_werecat: I was rushing off dreadnaught-beaters really frequently earlier to needle quintopia 15:00:59 I remember hearing about that. 15:01:04 insidious was added, and undermine re-added, to beat his beats-everything tweaks to your programs via methods he hadn't thought of 15:01:35 undermine is trivially easy to beat if you know how it works, incidentally 15:01:54 note: the current insidious loses against dreadnought 15:01:57 although things that beat undermine tend to lose to counterpoke, so there's a nice pincer movement going on there 15:02:00 I know 15:02:18 it's too easy to beat insidious by changing your decoy setup just a bit, and rather hard to compensate 15:02:20 ais523: i wasn't needled. 15:02:30 I'm not very good at needling people 15:03:02 ais523: fizzie_evo4 beats counterpoke on short tapes. that must be embarassing! (flag-dinging would take care of that) 15:03:33 it uses hyper-rush on short tapes because there's no room for decoys and even if they were they'd be skipped by rule of 9 15:03:38 but I didn't put a counter-vibration on it 15:03:42 probably I should have done 15:04:03 counterpoke is still far from optimised, it still uses a mindbogglingly standard offset clear, for instance 15:04:32 (and to think, there were days of BF Joust programming where people didn't know about offset clears yet because they hadn't been invented) 15:04:42 yeah i noticed that the tape lengths where collision beats it are those where rule of 9 skips its carefully placed decoys 15:05:23 Hmmm... I wonder how counterpoke would do with a juggernaut attack? 15:05:39 david_werecat: I tried an insidious attack but it made it way worse 15:06:18 I imagine an extreme juggernaught attack would also hurt; it's either set so many decoys that its clear speed doesn't really matter, or it's in a race where the opponent hasn't had much of a chance to set decoys 15:06:25 http://www.jimblyworlds.com/movies/promo.asf 15:06:32 which implies a simple clear loop would be better 15:07:07 nonetheless, I should do something like [-[-]][-[-]]> to make sure (which is guaranteed both vibration-proof and triplock-proof, although not immune to regular locks) 15:07:36 well, proof against losing to vibration, it can still draw 15:07:48 it also needs a timer clear to beat anticipations and regular locks 15:07:56 but heavy counterdefence isn't what I'm focusing on atm 15:07:57 ais523: idea: place the first large decoy to the point where you back-off and then the second by the flag for tapes shorter than 20 15:08:09 Hey fizzie`, you're good at data manipulation, right? 15:08:10 especially as I'm pretty much the only person who writes defence programs good enough to stick around on the hill anyway 15:08:11 !bfjoust counterpoke_juggernaut http://tinypaste.com/929dd6d4/save.php?hash=5def4fb0ec698c0c9124f023b2d52e51 15:08:14 that would give rule of 9 skips something to hang up on 15:08:14 ​Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_juggernaut: 36.5 15:08:28 quintopia: wouldn't work unless they set a lot of decoys 15:08:34 in which case, they'd outrace us even with the decoy near the flag 15:08:50 huh? 15:09:05 quintopia: if they don't set a lot of decoys, they reach the flag before we set the flag decoy 15:09:12 because any reasonable program can quickly clear a chain of 2s 15:09:29 !bfjoust lunatic (>)*9(+)*127(<(-)*127<(+)*127)*4(>)*8(>(+)*24[-])*21 15:09:30 if they do set a lot of decoys, their lots are going to hold us up longer than our one 15:09:31 ​Score for Gregor_lunatic: 15.4 15:09:33 there are several unreasonable programs :P 15:09:47 OK, I'm done writing things just to narrowly beat juggernaut ;) 15:09:53 Errr, dreadnaught 15:10:07 narrowly beating the top program is fun 15:10:11 not as fun when they do it to you 15:10:43 although I remember when waterfall3 had 100% win rate, elliott made it all-wins-but-1-which-is-a-draw by submitting /the exact same program/, and I tweaked a constant to beat it to 15:10:44 *too 15:10:45 watch counterpoke vs. jix_wiggle3 or collision 15:10:45 it seems like it might somethimes help there 15:10:46 Nice -3 on dreadnought. 15:11:07 I can't remember how collision works any more 15:12:51 it seems it helps against myndzi, and against weird stuff 15:12:56 and hurts against ffspg 15:13:04 not beating ffspg is close to unforgivable for a counterpoke :) 15:13:15 anyway, going home 15:13:16 -!- ais523 has quit. 15:13:51 !bfjoust counterpoke_juggernaut < 15:13:54 ​Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_juggernaut: 0.0 15:17:23 Heh, the XML dump for the legends is larger than Emacs' maximum buffer size. 15:23:48 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed). 15:25:43 Phantom_Hoover: how big is it? 15:26:24 What legends 15:26:30 3.5 GB. 15:26:40 Lumpio-, the LEGENDS OF ROCK 15:26:45 ... 15:26:47 Lumpio-, for the DF world I generated. 15:26:59 right 15:27:00 With the smallest built-in size and the largest possible history. 15:27:05 Why is it in XML 15:27:28 The save isn't, but you can dump to it. 15:27:40 I did so so I can faff around trying to work things out more easily. 15:28:37 * Phantom_Hoover realises he doesn't know the standard command for "display lines n to m". 15:29:57 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 15:30:02 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:30:15 -!- MoALTz has joined. 15:30:53 Phantom_Hoover: standard command in unix shell or in some text editor? 15:31:15 The closses I can get a fortress name to someone in this channel is "oklinfok sh" 15:32:25 > 148005702 - 55155053 15:32:26 92850649 15:33:28 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:35:57 OK I have no idea when the last goblin was born. 15:36:16 I'm making a world to /play/, dammit 15:39:30 I did that, except I got scared off for a bit when I got slammed with two massive migrant waves which threw off a lot of my plans, and then a human arrived with an FB-style announcement. 15:40:38 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:40:54 FB-style? You have 1 new friend request, elliott hird has asked you to help with his farm on FarmVille? 15:42:48 You have been invited to the group I'll Bet a Goblin Horde can get More Likes than Dwarves 15:45:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:06:18 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:06:29 I present, for your reading pleasure, a quote by the least eloquent man imaginable: 16:06:31 "It was not only grotesque, it was just very sad, the amount of blood," Sgt. Javier Ortiz, vice president of the Miami Fraternal Order of Police, told the Associated Press. "It was very sad to see what happened to this gentleman that had his face eaten." 16:06:47 -!- aloril has joined. 16:08:45 Gregor: oh god. whatever happened to picking the best talker for press conferences? 16:09:33 I think this guy's speaking style is more grotesque than the crime ^^' 16:09:43 (OK, that was an awful thing to say X-D) 16:11:21 The gamble of starting on an aquifer hasn't paid off 16:18:43 -!- itidus20 has joined. 16:20:46 -!- elliott has joined. 16:21:45 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:25:27 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:25:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:27:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:28:57 http://ompldr.org/vZTE4dw yay, I broke it 16:29:36 Womp womp 16:32:29 it's fixed now 16:33:37 Hello, elliott 16:33:54 was that a picture of a cached copy of an error message? 16:34:38 olsner: I have no idea why it cached the error :P 16:34:41 Or if it even did. 16:38:25 Phantom_Hoover: Have you realised that you're not a ? 16:38:35 :( 16:38:41 http://sourceforge.net/projects/grepgui/ 16:39:36 Did you read about the epic history of Teyo Alino, The World of Dawning? 16:39:47 Phantom_Hoover: help 16:40:19 what is, porlbme 16:40:43 what's teyo alino 16:40:55 `addquote i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed 16:40:58 THE WORLD... OF DAWNING 16:40:58 843) i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed 16:41:26 `quote 16:41:26 `quote 16:41:27 `quote 16:41:28 `quote 16:41:30 `quote 16:41:36 120) cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. 16:41:36 281) Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here 16:41:38 654) ...Overlapping? 16:41:46 715) Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. He lives in Detroit. I... think we might have found the wrong one. 16:41:47 `delquote 654 16:41:47 397) meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary so far, it has found four digits I hope it will find the fifth some time this week 16:41:51 ​*poof* ...Overlapping? 16:41:59 why was that added 16:42:02 probably i did it 16:42:42 No, it was the hoover. 16:43:07 elliott, it's a really tiny DF world I generated with history set to 10,000 years. 16:43:25 `log Sgeo 2011-10-14.txt:06:38:16: ...Overlapping? `addquote ...Overlapping? 16:43:35 good 16:43:39 why are you ` 16:43:39 it hurts 16:43:47 Oh, I did not notice. 16:43:49 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 16:43:55 Phantom_Hoover: With the >1k year war? 16:44:15 The gist of it is that nearly 9600 of those years were spent in five different "Ages of Goblins", in spite of the fact that goblins became a tiny minority by the 3rd century. 16:44:37 The goblin civs are composed almost entirely of the descendents of abducted humans and dorfs. 16:45:04 :D 16:45:08 -!- fizzie has quit (Changing host). 16:45:08 -!- fizzie has joined. 16:45:13 Phantom_Hoover: You *must* start a fortress. 16:45:17 Think of the goblin invasions. 16:45:47 (The elves, near as I can tell, were almost totally eradicated.) 16:46:04 Thank god. 16:46:18 Phantom_Hoover: With the >1k year war? 16:46:25 No, that was a different one. 16:46:37 OK, seriously, we need a new featured language. 16:46:39 I haven't really checked the wars that much because there's so much goddam history. 16:47:08 *goddamn 16:47:18 Phantom_Hoover: Which language should I feature we seriously need a new one. 16:47:29 ESME 16:48:31 elliott, anyway Taneb started generating a 5000 year pocket world and it got up to the 14th Age of Fairytales before DF crashed on him. 16:48:34 I am quite jealous. 16:49:59 Phantom_Hoover, it crashed when I was reading the legends 16:50:22 Oh? 16:50:33 Yeah, just froze 16:50:47 elliott, oh also I dumped the history as XML and the file was 3.5GB. 16:50:54 :D 16:51:01 Phantom_Hoover, how do you dump it as XML? 16:51:41 Hit x in legends mode. 16:51:45 Okay! 16:51:46 You may have problems with this method. 16:51:47 Bye now! 16:51:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:55:50 elliott, also there's a 9700 year old goblin who was made a slave by the humans but was later freed and settled down in a tomb. 16:55:58 Ah. 16:56:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:05:19 http://www.humblebundle.com/ Again??????? 17:05:27 Ooh, roman numerals. Classy. 17:05:39 Hey it has Psychonauts. It's that game I've never played. 17:05:42 I bet shachaf will tell me to buy it. 17:05:55 I haven't played Bastion either. Maybe I should buy this thing. 17:05:57 Phantom_Hoover: Should I buy this thing? 17:06:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:06:20 Haha, you can get on the top contributors list by paying $20 right now 17:06:29 fizzie: Quick! 17:06:36 Hello! 17:06:40 Buy "irc.freenode.net #esoteric" for $50 before it's too late. 17:07:09 I'm not buying it, the only game there I want to play I've got on steam and doesn't like my video card 17:07:11 elliott: It's Psychonauts. Worth playing so much. 17:07:16 Why would we want people to come here >_> 17:07:23 Also, I just spent a lot of money 17:07:27 Gregor: It would be SO MUCH FUN. 17:07:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the internati-anal hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:07:55 -!- elliott has set topic: pOJNFSERIYU90J64IOKTRD http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:08:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: Topic redacted http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:08:18 All of the games in the 17:08:18 Humble Indie Bundle V work 17:08:18 on Mac, Windows, and Linux. 17:08:23 Psychonauts was ported to Linux????? 17:08:26 Phantom_Hoover: ??????? 17:08:51 elliott: I vote deadfish to be the featured language 17:09:02 Taneb: The article... sort of needs a slight cleanup. 17:09:19 I... don't want to be the one who does that 17:09:30 TOO LATE YOU JUST VOLUNTEERED 17:11:26 elliott: Apparently it was ported. 17:11:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:11:46 Hello, zzo38 17:12:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:14:57 elliott, is that acceptable!? 17:15:03 what 17:15:15 deadfish article 17:15:47 Taneb: No, since you actually made it factually incorrect. 17:15:54 Oh no! 17:15:57 elliott: HumbleBundle has Psychonauts?! 17:15:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:16:00 elliott, it has Bastion and Psychonauts. 17:16:04 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I said. 17:16:07 elliott: You should buy it! 17:16:09 shachaf: Yes. 17:16:17 I cannot see any reason not to buy it. 17:16:31 Well it also has Amnesia: The Dark Descent and I might be tempted to play it? 17:16:56 Pretend 17:17:02 Taneb: Deadfish can deal with >8-bit values. 17:17:03 that it is a really pretentious artsy game 17:17:12 about a troubled young woman with anterograde amnesia 17:17:14 elliott, not until you square it! 17:17:26 So? 17:17:44 ... 17:17:48 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:18:06 Fine 17:24:37 elliott, so OK I'm thinking we should do a succession fortress on that 'goblin' world, except then after a while we make loads of masterwork adamantine weapons and armour, build a self-operating danger room and then abandon it, return in Adventure Mode and emerge as the figurehead of goblin^Wbrainwashed human/dwarf death. 17:25:01 I'm not playing Adventure Mode. 17:25:06 You can. 17:25:14 It is the least fun thnig. 17:25:15 thing. 17:25:18 zzo38, what does Prelude.Generalize.(<>>=) do 17:28:21 Phantom_Hoover: OK so I don't know how to float. 17:29:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:29:29 elliott: They even have Linux/OS X ports of Psychonauts! 17:29:37 Taneb: Like >>= but the result values are ignored and it uses the other one instead. 17:29:37 Frabjous day indeed! 17:29:47 Okay 17:29:52 shachaf: Yes, I noted that too. 17:29:59 Hmm, Bastion ported to Linux? But it's XNA, isn't it? 17:30:02 That seems...painful. 17:30:26 zzo38, because I am bored and writing documentation 17:30:39 I *am* documentation. 17:30:50 I am writing elliott 17:30:54 elliott elliott elliott 17:30:59 It's fun, everyone should try it 17:31:11 For example getLine <>>= putStrLn will result the input even though it is also copied to the output as well, and (<>>= guard . f) is like filter f 17:31:54 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:32:24 Taneb: If you write a document for Prelude.Generalize then show me what you have, or even just upload a version including the documentation as long as you make no other changes at all to the program 17:32:35 I've just done bool so far 17:34:26 Could someone explain Alternative's some and many? 17:34:31 I don't see what they do at all 17:34:53 Alternative's some and many can be used with parsers 17:36:05 If <|> means the right side is used if the left side failed, then many means try multiple times until they fail and collect the results. 17:36:15 And, some is similar but at least one. 17:42:19 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:42:59 Oh no, a bundle. 17:43:42 All of Bastion, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Psychonauts and LIMBO have been so very much recommended, and I haven't any of them. Oh no. 17:43:44 fizzie: It has Bastonauts! And Psychion. 17:44:19 fizzie: Play Psychonauts! 17:44:24 fizzie: It's the game to play. 17:44:40 So I've heard. 17:45:52 And I've seen people play LIMBO and it looked nice. And of course Bastion, based on Steam's "community" stuff my wife's brother has been playing it a whole lot. 17:46:04 zzo38, why does (!!!) need Alternative? Surely Applicative would do? 17:46:58 Ah, nevermind 17:51:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:57:19 zzo38, what does fair do? 18:06:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:08:10 elliott: Remember that Reddit thread with return . f . unsafePerformIO? 18:08:15 Yes. 18:08:31 It's returned with a vengeance 18:08:58 Where? 18:09:05 It has? 18:09:15 Probably not 18:09:37 -!- monqy has joined. 18:11:23 @messages? 18:11:23 monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 18:11:46 monqy == popular 18:15:39 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:16:16 @messages? 18:16:16 Sorry, no messages today. 18:16:20 bleh. 18:16:26 @messages 18:16:27 You don't have any new messages. 18:16:30 @messages? 18:16:31 Sorry, no messages today. 18:16:33 @messages????? 18:16:34 Unknown command, try @list 18:16:46 @tell Ngevd heheheh 18:16:47 Consider it noted. 18:16:50 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd. 18:16:54 @messages 18:16:54 Taneb said 7s ago: heheheh 18:17:00 Yay! popular 18:17:01 @tell boily hi 18:17:01 Consider it noted. 18:17:04 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb. 18:17:07 @messages 18:17:08 elliott said 6s ago: hi 18:17:12 ooooh! 18:17:24 @tell elliott bonjour! 18:17:24 Consider it noted. 18:17:30 @messages? 18:17:30 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:17:33 @messages 18:17:33 boily said 9s ago: bonjour! 18:17:39 yay 18:19:47 -!- DH____ has joined. 18:20:48 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:22:00 zzo38? 18:24:30 -!- shachaf has quit (Changing host). 18:24:30 -!- shachaf has joined. 18:28:39 Taneb: There is no zzo38. (At least not at this moment.) 18:28:46 Aah 18:28:54 This is why tab-completion is a good idea 18:29:00 @ask zzo38 What does fair do? 18:29:00 Consider it noted. 18:34:48 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:04:30 -!- nortti_ has joined. 19:05:25 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:07:37 -!- tswett has joined. 19:16:47 what is the length limit on egobot's bfj programs 19:18:58 I don't think there is one 19:19:06 It accepts urls 19:19:10 quintopia: big, but not infinite 19:19:11 ask Gregor 19:19:31 its it character or line limit? 19:19:55 size 19:20:50 okay. is 5MB too big? 19:29:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:31:41 tias 19:31:59 omg, the CANNIBAL DRUG has reached sweden 19:32:19 it's worse than DEATHDRUGS 19:32:21 whats canniabl drug 19:34:33 drug that eats other drugs? 19:35:33 -!- Gregor has set topic: It was very sad to see what happened to this gentleman that had his face eaten. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:36:53 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:37:24 :( 19:37:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:38:01 -!- Taneb has set topic: DISCUSS ESOLANGS OR ELSE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:38:26 else is such a lovely keyword, isn't it 19:38:53 also a woman's name 19:39:41 why I am suddenly remined of KieliX, line number basic with keywords in finnish 19:40:38 -!- nortti_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:41:10 There's no contradiction. There are 3.5 billion women on Earth and 3.5 billion men and still it's sometimes hard to find a date ;-) What we need is a Haskell dating service. 19:41:14 -!- nortti_ has joined. 19:42:42 "Are you lazy, yet still functional? Try the Haskell dating service!" 19:43:17 :D 19:44:02 oerjan: Just look at those enormous monads. 19:45:19 ... and then the monad transformer spam 19:45:42 If you remove the Monad requirement for MonadPlus's, you end up with something slightly less useful than a Monoid 19:47:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:47:52 You end up with exactly a Monoid, don't you? Just lifted a kind higher for some reason. 19:48:01 Yeah 19:48:09 It's a Monoid, with some broken instances 19:48:33 Oh, right, the laws are all messed up. 19:48:35 Haskell sucks. 19:48:43 Taneb: Are you buying the Bumble Hundle? 19:48:54 Nah, spending money on other things atm 19:48:57 I may next week 19:49:03 Phantom_Hoover: Hey figure out when the statistical best time to buy the Bundle is to make the average the lowest so that I can get Bastion for the lowest price. 19:49:18 elliott, as soon as possible 19:49:31 Taneb: Are you sure? I figure early adopters pay more. 19:49:38 As time goes on the cheapskates will pick it up and the average will go down. 19:49:41 People have a reason to pay above the average, so the average keeps rising 19:49:52 That's true. But a lot of people already own Bastion. 19:50:03 I already own Amnesia 19:50:09 I paid for it TWICE 19:50:11 Neither time worked 19:51:15 But I've never heard of Bastion, what is Bastion 19:51:31 The average's gone up from $6.68 to $7.20 in the last... two hours or so. 19:51:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: DISCUSS THIS GENTLEMAN THAT HAD HIS FACE EATEN OR ELSE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:51:44 elliott, buy before it is too late! 19:52:24 I don't think it's possible for the average to rise above what I'm willing to pay for it. 19:52:29 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:52:47 What are you willing to pay for it? 19:53:02 * quintopia already bought 19:53:28 even though i already own psychonauts on steam... 19:53:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:55:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 19:55:17 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:56:35 -!- boily has set topic: DISCUSS EUCALYPTUS TREES AND OR MAYBE LIKE SO TOTALLY | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:56:47 I'm ruining myself on all those bundles... 19:57:37 I've bought N bundles and played 0 bundle games. 19:58:44 I quite enjoyed Machinarium 20:01:36 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:04:02 I've bought five bundles now; been skipping them, lately. 20:06:18 I skipped the Botanica thing because it looked rubbish. 20:06:20 Also the Android one. 20:06:30 Goodnight 20:06:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:06:32 (That wasn't actually Android exclusive, bizarrely.) 20:07:13 my friend convinced me to try out osmos. 20:07:20 I have this friend who wants to be referred gomrade Osku who apways buys one of these bundles for 10€ or more and then proceeds to download them using bittorrent 20:07:39 osmos is stressful! 20:07:45 *comrade 20:07:54 hi 20:08:02 *always 20:08:19 boily: I remember that one. I think. 20:08:47 elliott: it's like a 2D katamari with weird abstract colourful circles. 20:09:02 Sounds nice 20:09:28 very nice and immersive, all with the soothing soundtrack. 20:09:46 Doesn't sound stressful :P 20:11:36 I played Machinarium from the bundle! 20:11:37 It was good. 20:11:54 elliott: it is. you just don't know you are stressed until you stop playing. 20:11:54 elliott: "play machinarium" 20:12:11 boily: hehe, I think that applies to a lot of games 20:14:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:17:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/dfworldgen/comments/thn00/working_on_generating_a_10000year_massive_world/c4okccr 20:17:47 This guy is hardcore. 20:18:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 20:18:20 Phantom_Hoover: Also terrible at assembling a stable computer, apparently. 20:18:50 Stable computers aren't hardcore. 20:30:25 bye all! 20:30:26 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7). 20:32:18 @ask boily hi 20:32:18 Consider it noted. 20:35:55 -!- david_werecat has joined. 20:37:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]). 20:39:04 Also elliott re that Psychonauts Linux port, I've heard that Team Meat made really shitty Linux ports so they could get into the HIB and never updated them again. 20:39:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 20:39:35 Phantom_Hoover: Yes but come on, it's Double Fine. 20:39:44 There is *trust* in my heart. 20:40:31 Oh, Bastion isn't XNA. 20:40:55 Phantom_Hoover: (It's sad that people are exploiting the Humble Bundle's wonderful cross-platform initiative like that.) 20:41:14 I mean, they're practically single-handedly dominating the Linux games market by requiring ports. 20:43:32 Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Tim_Schafer_2011.jpg Doesn't this look like a guy you can trust to make a good Linux port? 20:43:47 His beard is quite trustworthy. 20:44:12 Apparently Ron Gilbert uses emacs. 20:46:27 -!- nortti_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:47:07 I never realised it was indie, though. 20:47:16 It'd be hilarious if there was a Valve HIB. 20:48:06 tf2 pay what you want 20:56:46 Phantom_Hoover: What's indie? 20:57:02 monqy: a steal -jesus 20:57:07 I understand it amounts to 'self published'. 21:00:30 -!- nortti_ has joined. 21:02:27 Indie means "not EA" 21:02:43 http://store.steampowered.com/sub/14499/ 21:04:02 Phantom_Hoover: I mean, you never realised what was indie? 21:05:28 Psychonauts. 21:07:44 indie is work done independed of big bad corporations like Touhou Project 21:08:25 erm. Touhou Project is indie work, not corporation 21:08:45 Kobold shows up 7 steps from the nearest soldier. 21:09:42 Oh, even better, it was 2 steps from an armed marksdorf. 21:15:12 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:17:24 so the term indie seems ill-defined at best 21:19:39 Phantom_Hoover: Double Fine has 65 employees. 21:19:57 They might not be indie, but they're hardly "mainstream". 21:20:14 I didn't have any idea who made it to begin with. 21:20:27 Well, Tim Schafer. :p 21:23:31 -!- cswords__ has joined. 21:23:37 I have had negative, yet enduring, opinions about X since day one. 21:26:44 hi 21:27:08 -!- cswords_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:47:16 if an individual develops a game on their own time, unrelated to any company they are a part of, and if that individual owns all the associated intellectual property, then i imagine that at that point it's an indie game 21:47:34 "unrelated to" probably isn't formal enough 21:50:01 if you have no ties to any companies then it must be indie 21:50:40 indie just means you receive no funds from nintendo, sony, ms, or EA 21:50:50 well this gets tricky 21:50:58 because thats the publishing side of things 21:51:02 yep 21:51:03 i mean.. 21:51:13 you are independent of major publishers 21:51:17 therefore indie 21:51:18 is the same game indie or non-indie based on who publishes it? 21:51:20 wow 21:51:31 cool 21:51:42 i'm undecided on valve 21:52:12 they feel indie, but are very big and have steam 21:52:59 i suppose a game can be indie if it gets re-published by a major publisher after it has already been published 21:53:30 yeah but then it has totally sold out 21:55:29 ok so at this point we see that companies have all started bringing in an appstore of one kind or another 21:55:44 @ping 21:55:44 pong 21:56:09 -!- BlueProtoman has joined. 21:56:23 in the case of xbox the restriction is you have to make it run in dot net.. 21:56:40 itidus20: Can't be in C++? 21:57:11 BlueProtoman: well i'm specficially speaking of XBLIG .. i.. better double check 21:59:02 happy australian mailman mailing lists reminder day 21:59:24 well they have to use XNA. and XNA requires dot net 22:01:43 No C++? 22:02:19 Laaaame. 22:02:25 on another note "iPhone applications, like Mac OS X, are written in Objective-C,[3] with some elements of an application able to be written in C or C++." 22:03:40 BlueProtoman: i dunno man.. the actual limits seem quite complicated 22:04:09 Isn't Objective C a real bitch to work with? 22:04:20 Apple is probably the cause of most Objective-C code by now. 22:04:57 At least it's (AFAIK) actually a C superset, unlike C++. 22:05:41 BlueProtoman: Well, nothing's worse than C++. 22:05:45 Okay, apart from the things that are worse than C++. 22:05:47 Objective C is a superset of C because they made the syntax so weird that no sane C compile would be able to compile it. 22:05:52 wiki says "After Steve Jobs left Apple Inc., he started the company NeXT. In 1988, NeXT licensed Objective-C from StepStone" 22:06:12 It is 2012 and people saying "wiki" for "Wikipedia" still bugs me. :( 22:06:18 elliott: Agreed. 22:06:26 ok 22:06:28 wikiwikipedia 22:06:43 i wasn't referring to the esolang wiki 22:06:52 elliott: Wikipedia is the first website that anyone can edit. 22:06:57 I read it on wiki! 22:07:25 Hmm, I've just realised that there are a lot more married dorfs. 22:09:37 Would you happen to have an idea about why I still can't get loops to work? I've stepped through my code by hand, inserted debugging statements, etc. and I still don't know what the hell is going on. I'm not using any weird gcc-specific or low-level tricks. http://ideone.com/tMRpf 22:09:58 (This is for a Brainfuck interpreter, for those who just joined in on my saga) 22:10:47 I assign... fizzie to the case. 22:10:53 Also oerjan. 22:11:10 I assign elliott to assigning people to cases. 22:11:12 Permanent post. 22:12:26 fizzie and oerjan working on the same case... this sounds like a buddy cop movie 22:12:51 I'm trying in particular to run a program that prints factorials infinitely. I know it works because it runs fine on IDEone. 22:13:49 I'm asleep, it's not a good idea to assign me. 22:14:31 i'm pondering whether app store games are indie 22:16:01 I would say most are, you'd really have to look at the company itself to make the distinction. 22:16:24 For instance, the (really, really shitty) Android port of Contra 4 was made by Konami. Yeah, indie, OK. 22:17:19 well to me, the one who runs the app store becomes the publisher 22:17:47 So then Microsoft published everything on XBLA? 22:17:54 thats what im pondering 22:18:06 oh.. uh.. 22:18:07 Because the company still handles customers. 22:18:12 BlueProtoman, is this just a vanilla BF interp in $language? 22:18:16 Customers, news, updates... 22:18:17 theres XBLA vs XBLIG 22:18:25 itidus20: OK, fine, WiiWare. 22:18:39 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's a vanilla Brainfuck interpreter in C++11. 22:18:52 I do plan on implementing Extended Brainfuck later, but now I just wanna get this done. 22:19:00 augh no dont do bf derivs 22:19:04 Why? 22:19:15 See my wiki userpage :P 22:19:26 "Extending the brainfuck language is like bolting parts to a skateboard in an attempt to build a pickup truck." -- daniel b cristofani 22:19:43 BlueProtoman: well.. XBLIG and iPhone app stores are the cheapest to participate (i think (i havent looked up android) ) 22:19:44 Phantom_Hoover: What's your name on the wiki? Your IRC name got no results. 22:19:50 next up is probably WiiWare 22:20:28 Brainfuck derivatives are pretty unpopular in the community because there's a gigantic number of them already and they're rarely interesting 22:20:35 (Over 100) 22:20:39 elliott: I'm not making any of my own, just implementing a few. 22:20:45 XBLA is something like WiiWare but i don't know how much it costs to get in 22:20:56 * elliott was just explaining the sentiment 22:21:09 Noted. I promise not to create a new BF derivative. 22:21:46 Phantom_Hoover: Any thoughts about my code? 22:21:51 zzo38: Have you ever implemented Csbjogvdl? 22:21:56 Phantom_Hoover doesn't really code. 22:22:03 (Actually he doesn't really do much of anything.) 22:22:05 Nor does elliott. 22:22:08 This is true. 22:22:13 shachaf: is that a welsh brainfuck derivative? 22:22:31 This is a channel that appears primarily to coders. I don't even... 22:22:39 Actually, ONLY to coders. 22:22:46 ^appeals 22:23:02 Well, you can be a computer scientist without being a coder. (But you won't be a very good one.) 22:23:04 Phantom_Hoover: What's your name on the wiki? Your IRC name got no results. 22:23:17 You have to search "User:Phantom Hoover". 22:23:25 MW uses a namespace for userpages. 22:23:31 Oh, OK. 22:23:48 elliott: Thanks for insulting every computer scientist in the first half of the last century! 22:23:57 shachaf: YW. 22:24:08 shachaf: (That was more like proto-computer-science.) 22:24:08 Phantom_Hoover, I promise not to create a new Brainfuck derivative. 22:24:19 BlueProtoman: It may be too late. 22:24:22 protocom-utersci-ence 22:24:27 You never know when your brain might become a brick. 22:24:39 But I need it, I'm starting college soon. D: 22:24:55 Snarky comment about definitely not needing it for that. 22:25:17 No, I just need a healthy liver, apparently. 22:25:46 BlueProtoman: Keep in mind that elliott *is* school. 22:26:04 What, self-educated, no degree? 22:26:21 No, I just *am* school. Apparently. 22:26:28 just like i am australia 22:26:28 I am the abstract concept of school itself. 22:26:40 What! I thought you were the concrete concept. 22:26:50 Oh, OK. 22:26:54 You know, the way BF is normally specified is kind of dumb. 22:26:54 We don't have concrete in England. 22:26:54 `log [*]is* australia 22:27:00 BlueProtoman: (I don't have a degree, though.) 22:27:19 BlueProtoman: i have no idea what's wrong with your program. cut you give a debug trace of a program which fails? 22:27:21 No output. 22:27:21 elliott *is* a degree. 22:27:22 Here in the UK we have degrees but they're Celsius. 22:27:25 `log [*]is* australia 22:27:32 No output. 22:27:34 (it _might_ be in the details of c++ i don't know, of course) 22:27:41 `log [i]s australia 22:27:43 `log \*is\* australia 22:27:46 *could 22:27:51 2012-05-17.txt:17:53:25: itidus20 *is* Australia. 22:27:52 2009-01-11.txt:23:04:36: dewi is australian 22:27:56 wooooooooo 22:28:07 A degree here is nine fifths of a degree in America. 22:28:09 oerjan: Will do. 22:28:17 `log \\\*is\\\* 22:28:24 2012-05-31.txt:22:27:43: `log \*is\* australia 22:28:32 lol 22:28:38 Although in America you start off with 32 of them. 22:29:05 Phantom_Hoover: You should start off at -40, to make it fair. 22:29:28 oerjan: Output is here. http://codepad.org/LUozzZvS The BF program's coming up. 22:29:56 oerjan: Here you go. http://ideone.com/IGPXg 22:30:53 BlueProtoman: um your first paste looks like - not much... 22:31:00 oerjan: Exactly. 22:31:18 And yet the BF program's supposed to go indefinitely. 22:32:09 it doesn't even have any of your debug statements 22:32:28 oerjan: OK, then I'll post another version with them. 22:32:50 That's... pretty weird. 22:33:20 http://pastebin.com/GShNqeXy 22:33:22 Wait no, it's very weird. 22:33:58 It's probably a very tiny error, but I don't know what the hell it could be. 22:34:20 Have you tried simple stuff like cat and HW? 22:34:34 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, those work. The issue is nested loops. 22:35:22 Try something a little simpler with nested loops? 22:35:24 try ,[[.,]] 22:35:26 that's just cat 22:35:53 ^bf ,[[.,]]!that's just cat 22:36:06 ahh probably the bot isn't here 22:36:36 fizzie: fungot 22:36:50 Ah, this one's broken. Output in a second, just putting in a debug statement. 22:39:06 So yeah, I really don't like the way BF's spec makes it sound like BF has no syntax. 22:39:23 http://pastebin.com/Xu0pRknQ 22:39:46 Is it bad that I'm trying to write a BF interpreter, but can't actually program in BF? 22:39:51 Not really. 22:40:06 Would it be if I were trying to implement, say, Lisp or C? 22:41:27 You presumably understand /how/ to program in BF, but can't handle all the accounting required to actually do any complex operation. 22:41:45 I know what each instruction does, I know the standards, etc. 22:42:02 Ask me to write anything in it, and I'll point to the name. 22:42:11 BlueProtoman: um that doesn't look broken to me... 22:42:59 i can't write bf programs either 22:43:02 well i can 22:43:05 but i suck at it 22:43:07 it's much harder than writing an interp 22:43:14 23:39 So yeah, I really don't like the way BF's spec makes it sound like BF has no syntax. 22:43:17 -!- fungot has joined. 22:43:18 there's not realyl a spec 22:43:18 oerjan: Hm? That's odd. 22:43:22 There you go; but really, I'm asleep. 22:43:23 fizzie: sleeping i see 22:43:46 elliott, there's the informal one Muller gives with his interpreter which is the standard way to specify the language. 22:44:06 fsvo standard 22:44:24 Oh, shit. I confused my debug statements as garbage output somehow. 22:44:36 Put it this way, I've never seen it specified another way. 22:44:42 That simple program works fine here. But Factorial's still puzzling me. 22:45:00 And definitely not anywhere that a person would learn about it 22:46:25 Still broken, though. Hm... 22:47:57 well, BF is a mess 22:48:23 only barbarian monsters would program with it 22:48:44 Of course. 22:48:55 I'm almost tempted to add a section to the esolangs page giving an actual grammar. 22:48:56 oh.. don't pay attention to me................ 22:49:24 So, itidus20, how can I fix my interpreter, then? :) 22:49:36 i don't know, thats why i said don't pay attention to me 22:49:56 Running this program; http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/squares.b just brings the pointer below the first element, somehow. 22:50:28 BlueProtoman: it _looks_ to me like the factorial one might be actually ending the main loop and doing the three .'s in the final comment :P 22:50:31 i'm not here for coding or for computer science.. no infact i am here for the social life 22:50:54 oerjan: Not in IDEone it's not. 22:51:16 BlueProtoman: i'm speaking about the debug trace 22:51:35 itidus20: Social life, on IRC. Yeah, and I'm both of New York State's senators. 22:51:44 Have nextInstruction print, before execution, the locations (offsets) of the program and memory pointer and the values at those points; then compare that sort of trace with one you get by running the program on (virtual) pen and paper, and find the place of first deviation. 22:52:48 (And then figure out why it does the wrong thing at that point.) 22:54:50 BlueProtoman: this channel is pretty social :P 22:56:13 Odd, currentinstruction ahd index (both of which are char*) show characters when I print them, and not addresses. 22:56:15 *and 22:58:19 Oh, shit, char pointers are c-strings. 22:58:43 How do I convert them to just a pointer, rather than a whole C-string? 22:59:04 Oh my god all three of the marksdorfs are actually training at the archery range 22:59:06 this is beautiful 22:59:36 Who? 22:59:43 I'm playing Dwarf Fortress. 22:59:54 BlueProtoman: hm after going through the trace as best i can, i suspect that it is _not_ [ and ] that does anything wrong, _assuming_ it's actually taking the right branch at each step, that's consistent with a path through the entire program 23:00:18 Also I have 66 dorfs, huge amounts of clutter and temperature on and it's still running at 100FPS. 23:00:22 BlueProtoman: If you want a single dubious point, >'s tape-boundary checking looks like it. If the test fires, you're already one past the end (tape.data() + tape.size() does not point to a valid part of tape); so you both append a 0, and increment index, leaving you again at tape.data()+tape.size(), an invalid location. The test should be after ++index, presumably. 23:00:28 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, OK. 23:00:40 i suspect it's actually the tape values. maybe what fizzie said. 23:01:30 AAAAAAAAAAA IT WOOOOOOORKS 23:01:52 Thank you very, very much! You've just saved my AP CS grade! 23:02:41 XD 23:02:56 BlueProtoman: You have to write a BF interpreter for your CS grade? 23:03:14 elliott: _very_ hardcore 23:03:14 fizzie: Good sleephelping. 23:03:17 elliott: No, I chose to. We were given a final project that we have a lot of control over. 23:03:35 It could be pretty much anything. My classmate did an Android game, for instance. 23:04:11 I had one in the works as a toy project, anyway. 23:09:38 Question. I've got summer break coming up soon, and I'm trying to decide what CS-related venture to take. Which do you think I could learn the most from; creating a game with someone, studying data structures (I mean the theory, I know how to use stack, queue, list, etc. classes), or learning Python? Or maybe something else? 23:10:29 what languages do you know already? 23:10:40 C++, bit of Java. 23:10:48 learn Python 23:10:50 Oh, catch. 23:10:51 probably 23:11:16 those horizons need expanding, C++ and Java are not really some of the better languages out there :p 23:11:20 (and are ~fairly similar to start with) 23:11:33 you could combine the Python thing and the game thing, perhaps 23:11:34 I'm in my university's CS Honors Program. Due to the way the core Honors curriculum is set up, I won't be able to take the Data Structures Honors class until next fall. 23:11:37 pygame is pretty good 23:15:07 I'll have to give that a shot, then 23:15:24 I don't like Python much, but it's certainly better than C++ 23:15:40 and you'll probably have fun with it 23:16:18 I'm not sure what the best Python learning material is these days. Probably avoid Dive into Python? 23:16:37 I've dabbled in Python before, but nothing serious. I do know that the official docs are really good. 23:16:42 shachaf: Is the official Python tutorial any good? 23:16:44 I don't remember it. 23:16:53 elliott: I don't know. I never read it. 23:17:03 ISTR it being a bit dry, but I don't really remember. 23:17:10 Oh, fourth option. Learn Qt, but with Python. 23:17:14 Forgot to mention. 23:17:16 I wouldn't learn Qt. 23:17:20 The official Haskell tutorial is pretty good. 23:17:28 It's not awfully pleasant. 23:17:39 In an elitist "makes me feel good about myself when other people can't understand it" sort of way, of course. 23:17:52 elliott: So what GUI library would you use instead? I hear bad things about wxWidgets. Whatever GUI library I use, it has to be cross-platform and native-looking. 23:17:53 BlueProtoman: And it's probably worse to learn it with another programming language, since it generally maps badly to other languages. 23:18:02 (Heck, it doesn't even map to C++ well.) 23:18:12 BlueProtoman: HTML5+JAVASCRIPT+CSS=GUI OF THE FUTURE 23:18:13 BlueProtoman: I wouldn't learn a GUI library now, unless you really really want to for some reason. 23:18:14 QED 23:18:20 They're generally very unpleasant things. 23:18:26 ==elliott 23:18:29 (And nothing is "cross-platform and native-looking" everywhere, sorry.) 23:18:29 shachaf: For desktop applications? 23:18:42 elliott: What about wxWidgets? 23:18:48 BlueProtoman: A desktop is just a thin client with a thick server hiding underneath! 23:18:53 Not native-looking on plenty of platforms. 23:19:18 You should probably learn Objective C and Cocoa. 23:19:19 e.g. OS X, and on X11 (considering native from either a GNOME or KDE or Xfce perspective) 23:19:21 I hear that's the future. 23:19:26 shachaf: I don't own an iDevice. 23:19:34 You don't need an iDevice. 23:19:42 Use GNUStep. 23:19:47 I guess that's not Cocoa. 23:20:13 Is BlueProtoman taking shachaf seriously? 23:20:19 Try not doing that. 23:20:30 Noted. 23:20:39 The Android SDK is a real possibility, though. 23:20:46 I would suggest not learning that, either. 23:20:58 BlueProtoman: Oops. :-( 23:21:07 BlueProtoman: OK, so, seriously, why would you learn a GUI? 23:21:12 Library? 23:22:11 shachaf: So I can make non-game/non-console interfaces? 23:22:22 Interfaces to what? 23:22:24 elliott: Even though I have an Android device? 23:22:35 Even then, yes. 23:22:46 One, it's Java. Two, it's awful. 23:22:55 elliott: So what the hell would I use instead, then? 23:23:13 Three, even if you have an amazing burning desire to write Android apps that goes deep right into your soul, it's only going to impair you in the future, because you'll have spent a bunch of time learning a really awful API. 23:23:34 BlueProtoman: I would write things that aren't GUI apps, at least for a while. 23:23:55 But I want to do game dev. How the hell would I reach Android users, then? Whatever happened to broadening your market? 23:23:56 (Hell, I'd avoid touching GUI code even now. It is not a very enjoyable experience.) 23:24:32 Well, "GUI" isn't the same thing as "game programming", for a start. 23:24:47 Anyway, if your motives are economic rather than learning, then that obviously changes a lot. (But you need the latter for the former.) 23:25:32 Of course. But porting software is great practice for CS majors, is it not? 23:25:54 And just because I do game programming doesn't mean the only programs I write will be games. 23:25:58 Or console apps. 23:26:01 Well, uh, I wouldn't say so. 23:26:54 Porting software is ugly business and does not really exercise any of the truly relevant skills that you'd care about as a CS major. 23:27:08 Except porting software? 23:27:16 What? 23:27:34 The greatest accomplishment of many accomplished computer scientists is porting. 23:28:23 Remember that great paper Turing published about how you can port any program to his machine? 23:28:28 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:30:21 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:11 * oerjan thinks this notion of porting may include most of his programs in recent times 23:36:36 Hah, a goblin snatcher grabbed a hunter's baby off her. 23:37:15 She downed it in two shots. 23:38:05 ...and then another one made off with it. 23:40:09 Oh for fuck's sake you idiot don't kill things by pouring expensive ammo into them. 23:40:35 I kill things by making them invent BF derivatives. 23:44:25 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 23:44:25 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:45:02 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 23:46:18 -!- BlueProtoman has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:52:23 A goblin snatcher attacks! The troops are sortied! The marksdwarves catch sight of their enemy, draw a bead, fire... 23:52:42 And successfully cripple a tiger standing in the general vicinity minding its own business. 23:53:04 The snatcher, meanwhile, outruns the rest of the soldiers.