00:01:20 -!- nooga has joined. 00:34:56 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:42:30 Is it terrible that I'm in Beijing and I want to eat at KFC? 00:42:35 It's just SO popular. 00:42:40 I want to know what all the fuss is about. 00:50:35 Probably just fried chicken, if it's anything like Japanese KFC. 00:52:41 yes gregor 00:52:59 chin has awesome food 00:53:08 and kfc doesnt capture it 00:53:45 OK, A) All the Chinese food I've had thusfar has disappointed. 00:54:01 B) I have LOTS of time to have authentic food, I need SOME variety anyway. 00:54:04 well, perhaps you shouldnt be eating chinese food 00:54:08 (Yesterday I ate Thai for dinner) 00:54:23 that said, the best chinese food i hac was in shanghi, so you could just be in the wrong part of the country 00:54:49 Yeah, Chinese food is (I'm told) very heavily regional. 00:54:58 It could just be that Beijing-area food sucks. 00:55:04 True. 00:55:22 Maybe I should look for a Shanghainese restaurant :) 00:56:40 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:58:09 sichuan food is so good! 00:59:00 also there's a restaurant in NYC called Xi'an Famous Foods which has incredible noodles 00:59:16 i don't know if this is representative of the food from that area or not 01:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit. 01:04:20 http://goo.gl/maps/nh6R <-- here, you choose where I should eat Lunch X-D 01:05:39 Betcha that "western" restaurant's weird... :P 01:07:53 It's probably to "western" food what "Chinese" restaurants are to "Chinese" food O_0 01:09:01 Yes, exactly. 01:09:07 "The toilet recommended a place called Americatown" 01:09:11 Much like Japanese 'western' food. 01:09:30 pikhq_: But it could be fun for exactly that reason ;) 01:09:47 Yes. 01:12:19 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:12:23 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:19:38 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:48:48 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:48:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:51:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:01:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:04:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:13:26 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:41:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:44:31 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:47:13 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:50:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:49:32 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:49:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:59:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:59:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:11:42 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:11:49 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 05:11:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:11:35 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 05:11:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:11:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:36:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: later chat). 05:52:04 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:47:06 -!- Patashu has joined. 07:10:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 07:10:52 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 07:17:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:20:56 Oh, Bradbury died. 07:24:15 06.17:56:15 ( elliott) Oh, Ray Bradbury died. 07:24:36 You're a bit over 16 hours late with almost exactly the same message. 07:24:45 Now they'll BradBURY him. 07:24:59 (Well, possibly.) 07:25:12 "just normal bury me please" - bradburey 07:25:13 I suppose it could be also bradcremation. 07:25:14 Meanwhile, I still don't know who he was. Maybe now's the time to check Wikipedia. 07:25:30 One of those bookwriters. 07:26:00 Evidently yes. The guy who hated television. 07:26:03 Aged 91; can't perhaps quite call that life tragically cut short. 07:26:33 That's before the heat death of the universe, so at least *some* would call it cut short. 07:34:39 Deewiant, and everything else new. 07:34:59 Well, I suppose that somewhat follows. 07:35:15 Television isn't generally considered very hate-inducing. Or at least it wasn't back then. 07:35:19 His WP article actually quotes him saying "We've got too many internets." 07:36:29 Deewiant, um what, television has always been the go-to thing to bitch about how our culture is totally going downhill from the days when the common man read Dochevsky. 07:36:30 "We have too many cellphones. We've got too many Internets. We have got to get rid of those machines. We have too many machines now." 07:36:52 Well, since television became a major part of culture. 07:37:12 Just when we got to the point where information is forever, too. 07:37:13 I was thinking that it wasn't that major back then, but maybe I'm wrong. 07:38:20 Phantom_Hoover: Strange concept, that, considering mere universal literacy is relatively young. 07:39:42 Deewiant, well it came out in 1953, so I think it was at least significant and on the rise. 07:40:02 (it being Fahrenheit 451) 07:41:01 Maybe so. I'm at least quite sure that it was a very rare thing in Finland at the time, but the UK was somewhat ahead. 07:41:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:42:04 Took off like crazy in the US. 07:42:37 Heck, 1953's when NTSC color was introduced. 07:42:41 Oh whoops, he was American. Well, even more, then. 07:43:24 Well the Quatermass Experiment had 5 million viewers at its peak and it came out in '53, and that's got to be at least a tenth of the UK population at the time. 07:44:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:44:50 "I Love Lucy" had been running for 2 years by then... 07:45:13 Heck, Nielsen ratings were introduced in 1950. 07:46:42 "Television was introduced in Finland in 1957. Color television started in 1969. Prior to 1986, YLE monopolized the Finnish television." 07:46:49 We're a bit slow, y'know. 07:46:59 I was just looking at that stuff. Evidently the first television transmission was in 1955. 07:46:59 Oh god, this conversation has reminded me of the Foundation series. 07:47:05 That is not a good thing to remember. 07:47:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:47:21 Yeah, has to first get translated to Japanese, and then put through the Finnish cypher. :P 07:47:24 Phantom_Hoover: ? 07:47:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 07:48:13 pikhq_, well the first parts are OK but once the Second Foundation comes into play it's just this slow, annoying decay into "AHA I am the true force for good in the universe!" 07:48:13 Sources vary as to the exact year, but 1956-1958 for actual scheduled programs. 07:49:01 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TV-introduction-world-map.svg 07:49:15 Phantom_Hoover: I seem to recall Asimov being confused as to why people like the Foundation series so much. 07:50:58 Deewiant: At least us scandinavians are mostly in the same group. (Iceland doesn't count.) 07:51:25 "The Mule is a central character in Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation. Foundation's Edge reveals that he originally came from the planet Gaia, but was regarded as an aberration on a world where mental powers were being developed for benevolent ends." 07:51:36 Oh for fuck's sake Asimov did you really pull that one 07:51:47 Which one? 07:53:02 Retconning the Mule's origins as being from the stupid psychic planet rather than being a freak of nature, which is a genuinely interesting proposition. 07:53:39 I mean the whole point of the Mule is that he's basically an outside context problem for the Foundation because they couldn't predict him, which is kind of cheapened by the stupid twist. 07:53:41 I actually *know* Foundation's Edge was written just to shut up annoying fans. 07:53:46 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 07:54:02 Which is why it, honestly, was uninteresting. 07:54:05 pikhq_, IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW 07:54:37 Shame, too. I like Asimov when he's not writing on what he obviously doesn't much care for. 07:54:43 Deewiant: Outside the "Saha" building there was a sign today advertising an event with the topic "Yhteistyöympäristöt globaaleissa tuoteprosesseissa". 07:55:35 Sigh. 07:57:46 (Approximate translation: "Cooperation environments in global product processes".) 07:59:38 pikhq_, I have one of his books of essays and some of them are really good. 08:02:10 I have some Asimov short story collections, and some of those are quite good too. (Some which mention Multivac are sort-of amusingly dated, though.) 08:02:59 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:21:45 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:22:43 Hello! 08:22:56 Jello! 08:27:02 fizzie: Finnish is a good language. 08:27:09 I wish I knew it. :-( 08:27:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:28:02 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:32:58 Looks fancy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Douyfa7l8 08:35:22 They also have a human-powered street view photography thing: http://googleblog.blogspot.fi/2012/06/never-ending-quest-for-perfect-map.html 08:35:54 (Look how happy the guy is. (I wonder how much that thing weighs.)) 08:57:59 -!- derdon has joined. 09:04:06 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:44:52 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:44:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 09:44:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:47:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:50:25 shachaf: you can learn it online. really only hard thing is how we put awful lot of junk into a word. ("I sit"->"istun", "you sit"->"istut", "he/she sits"->"hän istuu", "box"->"laatikko", "to box"->"laatikkoon", "in box"->"laatikossa", "from box"->"laatikosta" and so on) 09:51:32 "without his box"->"laatikottaan" 09:55:17 "kahvinjuojallekin" - also for a coffee drinker. It's one of our standard examples when talking about the statistical-morphemes-based language model thing we have. 09:56:12 "kevytmoottipolttoöljykanisteri" 09:56:18 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:56:29 *moottori 09:57:00 Well, we do a lot of compound words like that, too, but the suffixes are I think more interesting. 09:57:26 epäjärjelmällisydettymyydelläkään 09:57:30 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:58:55 I've most often heard that as "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkään", or some-such. Not that anyone would really go that far, ordinarily. 10:00:16 and that is one word with suffixes 10:01:20 Aw, the Kielipankki corpus files have mode 600, I can't check what's the longest actually-used word in that. 10:01:20 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:01:38 what files? 10:01:56 It's this collection of newspaper text. We use it for training language models. 10:02:11 oh. ok 10:02:42 There's some 145 million words of text there. 10:03:15 how large are those files? 10:03:36 Few hundred megabytes. Text compresses well, after all. 10:03:47 It's the audio that takes up space, really. 10:05:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:05:39 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:07:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:08:34 @ask zzo38 Could you give me a copy of the next version of Prelude.Generalize so I know what'll be in it, please? 10:08:35 Consider it noted. 10:09:21 The Finnish "SPEECON" audio corpus we've used takes up 71 gigabytes of disk, according to du. And it only has three of the four recording channels. 10:09:31 Admittedly it's uncompressed PCM. 10:12:43 fizziew, four channels? 10:12:52 what is the point of that? 10:12:56 BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV and Channel 4 10:13:29 TV1, TV2, MTV3, Nelonen (four) 10:13:35 Taneb, I thought he meant audio channels, like stereo has channels 10:13:37 Vorpal: They're recorded with four different microphones -- headset mic, lapel mic, and two more or less far-away microphones -- so that you get the same speech at different noise levels. 10:13:37 misread 10:13:44 or not :P 10:13:55 Vorpal, me and nortti were both joking 10:13:59 right 10:14:25 note to self: there are not 32 days in any month 10:15:23 nortti, why would there be? 10:16:50 Vorpal: I fucked up my calendar calculation software and so it thinks that normaly months are either 32 or 31 days long and February is either 30 or 29 days 10:17:25 whoa, latest firefox update makes firefox empty tab page look like chrome, showing images of commonly visited pages 10:17:26 Subtract 1 day from each month 10:17:32 not sure I like that... 10:18:07 Vorpal: you can disable that 10:18:14 nortti, where? 10:18:21 trying to look for that setting atm 10:18:45 Vorpal: about:config . you can also switch to old tab behaviour from there 10:19:22 what old tab behaviour? I use tab mix plus addon so I guess it overwrote any changes to that 10:19:32 nortti, anyway, which about:config setting? 10:22:38 hm also scrolling with pgup/pgdown (useful since this is a laptop, and I don't use the touchpad, I use the trackpoint) now seems to visibly scroll rather than just jump 10:22:39 why 10:22:41 Vorpal: New Firefox also default-enables SPDY. 10:22:55 Not that I think any non-Google entities really go all SPDY. 10:23:06 yeah that would be doubtful 10:23:24 which httpds even supports spdy? 10:23:33 There's an Apache module, but that's not a surprise. 10:23:39 There's probably an Apache module for everything. 10:23:59 The scrolling is the "smooth scrolling", and I did notice they mentioned default-enabling that too in the change notes. 10:24:11 what about ngnix? 10:24:26 fizziew, any idea how to turn off the smooth scrolling, it just takes pointless time 10:24:52 ah found it 10:24:59 general.smoothScroll is my guess. 10:25:03 general.smoothScroll 10:25:04 yeah 10:25:15 why so much eye candy :( 10:26:09 They have to keep up with the competition, after all. 10:26:13 is there an RFC for SPDY? I seem to remember reading that firefox wouldn't be implementing SPDY until there was an RFC for it 10:26:53 I don't think there's anything else than the non-RFC drafts that say "this is not a standard yet" in bold at top. 10:26:57 At least last I looked. 10:27:01 uh, I just checked chrome, it doesn't smooth scroll :P 10:27:34 Well, then, not only keep up, but surpass them. 10:27:39 hah 10:27:58 anyway I can't find any option for the new tab in about:config, nor did google turn up anything useful 10:29:45 http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/new-tab-page-show-hide-and-customize-top-sites?s=new+tab+page&r=1&e=es&as=s#w_how-do-i-turn-the-new-tab-page-off 10:30:08 browser.newtab.url from 'about:newtab' to 'about:blank'. 10:30:19 ah 10:30:57 yay 10:32:53 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:33:06 soup 10:33:29 Chicken soup. 10:34:14 chicken it up huh 10:34:24 oklopol: I suppose you're the same oklopol who's been commenting at http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html in 2009? 10:34:40 yes, according to elliott 10:34:50 i don't remember doing that, but it's obviously my code. 10:35:29 why ask u 10:35:45 I just independently came across it, and wondered if there could be two of you. 10:35:49 That would be quite a shock. 10:36:14 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:36:36 actually i've seen a few people called oklopol on the internets, but their existences have been brief 10:36:50 You ate them and obtained their powers? 10:36:53 yes 10:37:10 does oklopol mean anything in Finnish? 10:37:27 More importantly, do you expect you'd get a straight answer from him? 10:37:37 I didn't target it at him only 10:37:41 you could answer too 10:37:42 yes, it means One Who De-fucking-vours His Enemies. 10:37:52 I wouldn't want to spoil the effect. 10:37:53 fizziew, to me it doesn't seem like an obvious nick at all 10:38:23 i'm pretty sure i've told the channel where my nick comes from 10:38:55 monopoly => monopoli => olopoli => oklopol. 10:39:27 ah 10:39:53 after we played olopoli at this scouting event some years ago, there was this whole thing about the bitter aftertaste of oklopol, and the deadly forests of oklopol. we rarely discuss the aftertaste now that i've taken it as a permanick. 10:40:17 dunno where the k came from. 10:40:25 or the aftertaste thing. 10:41:24 What a perfectly straightforward story. 10:41:40 i think so too 10:42:34 so i'm making a webpage, i hear that's the hip new thing 10:43:15 "Olopoli on toiminnallinen ja ajatuksia herättävä peli nuoren elämästä. Peliä pelataan vartioittain. Jokainen vartio tuo tullessaan pelinappulan (esim. kenkä, puurokauha) ja henkilökohtaisena varausteena jokainen tarvitsee istuinalustan." 10:43:20 Oh, so it's a real thing. 10:43:21 yes 10:43:22 I thought you made it up. 10:43:26 no. 10:43:31 i never lie 10:43:34 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:43:43 Hey, that's funny. 10:43:52 -!- fizzie has quit (Changing host). 10:43:52 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:43:53 it was the hilarioust game of ever. 10:44:31 has it been played on multiple occasions? 10:44:38 "Olopoli on toiminnallinen ja ajatuksia herättävä peli nuoren elämästä. Peliä pelataan vartioittain. Jokainen vartio tuo tullessaan pelinappulan (esim. kenkä, puurokauha) ja henkilökohtaisena varausteena jokainen tarvitsee istuinalustan." <-- huh? 10:45:13 google translate is usually terrible from Finnish so care to give me translation? 10:45:48 Vorpal: Uh... Olopoli is a functional and thought-provoking game about the life of a young person. And then some less important stuff. 10:45:59 I don't really know what "toiminnallinen" means. Action-full? 10:46:02 olopoli is a hip and cool youngster game, you play it with a bunch of buddies, every bunch brings an object (a shoe or some other utensil) and also you need something for your ass. 10:46:04 It's such a vague word. 10:46:11 fizziew, so what about the monopoly bit? 10:46:18 that's where the name comes from 10:46:22 obviously 10:46:41 huh 10:46:52 also the board is a 1-dimensional torus like in monopoly. 10:46:56 Does it actually have anything to do with it game-mechanistically speaking, though? (Well, I guess the shoe fits. Isn't one of the playing pieces a shoe?) 10:47:00 Okay. 10:47:24 i don't remember how it was played, i just remember we learned things like always use a condom with a prostitute unless she promises you're her first. 10:47:34 or smth like that 10:47:38 Sounds educational. 10:47:40 heh 10:47:59 There's a computer game that teaches you important things about puberty too, it's called "Murkku", I've occasionally been trying to re-find it. 10:48:22 (Short for 'murrosikä', puberty.) 10:49:09 -!- aloril has joined. 10:49:31 fizziew: did you find anything other than that description 10:49:32 ? 10:49:49 i have to go get my conference proceedings back from my ex soon 10:50:31 oklopol: Some camp schedules with Olopoli hours marked. And a press release mentioning the introducing of Olopoli. 10:50:38 which camp? 10:50:54 we played it at tarus 10:51:25 It's in tarus.fi, yes. 10:51:35 "5. Finnjamboree Padasjoki 28.7.-5.8.2004" 10:52:03 that long ago :o 10:52:08 Also there's an article about it in the proceedings of "Kouluterveyspäivät 2009" at University of Tampere. 10:52:12 I would never have guessed oklopol used to be a boyscout. Heh. 10:52:32 i still get invited in scouting things. 10:52:36 ouch 10:52:52 mainly because most of my friends still do it 10:52:58 heh 10:53:24 "Olopoli's purpose is to challenge the participants to a conversation about e.g. relationships, personal wellbeing, sexuality and drugs." 10:53:50 My wife's brothers did scout stuff. 10:54:49 But the first version was unveiled at Tarus 2004, apparently. 10:55:15 i liked the parts where we did nothing in a cold, wet and dark forest. i hated the parts where we did stuff. 10:56:35 when people tell me about the horrors of the army, it almost makes me want to go. then i realize it's not all freezing to death and being awake weeks at a time. you also have to be part of a social hierarchy. 10:56:44 MURKKU I can't find, though. There's a forum posting from 2007 asking "doesn't anyone remember MURKKU?", but that's about all. :/ 10:57:03 :D 10:57:08 fizzie, was that from the scouts too? 10:57:11 reminds me of that XKCD comic 10:57:15 no 10:57:28 Vorpal: No. But it was educational. We had a copy at the school's computer classroom. 10:57:31 ah 10:57:36 oklopol, which xkcd comic? 10:57:59 the one where the guy has some obscure problem and finds a forum where someone has asked about it. 10:58:02 and no one has answered. 10:58:04 it was great. 10:58:06 ah right 10:58:07 that one 10:58:14 It was in the style of one of those "select from a preset list of commands" adventure games. 10:58:28 There was a "listen" command, which played a sequence of random bleeps and said "you hear voices". I'm not sure if it was useful for anything else. 10:59:00 Also you could look at yourself, and get a random word describing your emotional state, plus some other attributes like "you smell bad" if you've taken the sausage for the dog. 10:59:00 "you get your first zit. do you a) kill yourself b) kill your friends c) keep masturbating, but use a less clean mirror from now on" 10:59:10 Or "The VCR you stole weighs your conscience." 10:59:12 Or whatnot. 10:59:35 Also there was something about a rusty bed-frame in a tree. 10:59:43 I may be mixing these things up a bit. 10:59:46 heh 10:59:48 excuse me but this game sounds awesome 11:00:30 It's not very long. I don't remember what happens when you win. 11:00:47 "yay you're an adult now. you can never play MURKKU again." 11:00:51 I think there were some hobos and a junk heap also involved. 11:01:02 Possibly in conjunction with the bed. 11:04:38 It was made by soft, I think. Where 'something' was a derivation from the "lead programmer"'s first name. 11:05:59 kind of did sound like a computer game, but i wanted to keep the mystery 11:07:12 I'm so displeased about not being able to find this thing in the Internet. Everything's supposed to be there. 11:10:49 the internet is overrated, most things i need daily are more likely found in the small library of the math dep than on the internet 11:11:18 Vorpal: the one that tabs open at the end of tab bar. also it seems you can turn disable that new emty tab page by clicking some cube icon at upper right 11:11:38 Not "disable", just hide. 11:11:44 and it's weird what they say about porn on the internet, it's really a very tiny percentage that gets there, you have to order most things directly from the germans. 11:12:35 okay i have to go get my proceedings WHICH YOU CANNOT READ FREELY ON THE INTERNET :( 11:13:12 Academic publishing: it's what's for dinner. 11:33:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:33:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 11:33:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:34:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:42:20 Sourceforge "user review" for SPIM, the MIPS(32) simulator: "One of the best FTP clients I've tried for GNU/Linux and Windows" 11:42:28 I, uh. Okay. 11:44:24 :P 11:45:09 It's recently (Jan 2011 is recent, right?) gotten a new Qt UI. 11:45:46 what toolkit did the old UI use? 11:47:12 Xaw, I think. 11:47:26 It was all retro like that. 11:47:43 Not that I ever used the X version, wasn't much point. 11:48:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:48:46 is there other than X version of it? is the old Xaw toolkit version still available? 11:49:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:49:08 (that would run on linux I mean) 11:49:17 There's a non-graphical version. 11:49:29 It might have had some sort of a curses-like UI, I don't exactly remember. 11:49:43 http://blog.agdunn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/xspim1.png -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/spimsimulator/screenshots/313041 it is a bit of a modernization. 11:50:33 imo the old was much better 11:51:27 Well, that's arguable. I've never been much of a fan with the Xaw scrollbars. 11:53:01 I like them. Xaw is also light and that is a good thing. on X I se xterm as my terminal emulator and xedit as my text editor 11:53:46 nortti, does xedit even have syntax highlighting? 11:54:14 Vorpal: You're asking this from a person who uses busybox vi. :p 11:54:18 oh 11:55:12 well I don't normaly use busybox vi. I like unix v6 ed bit more 11:55:22 you are joking, right? 11:55:27 nope 11:55:28 It's the standard text editor, no joking about it. 11:55:34 nortti, you should use TECO 11:56:05 Vorpal: can it be run on modern linux 11:56:13 no idea 11:56:27 I think there's at least some ports. 11:56:34 not unlikely indeed 11:56:47 nortti, anyway why use modern linux? You should use something older 11:56:54 like a PDP-11 11:57:29 Vorpal: I have apout so if it has been ported to unix v7 or older on pdp-11 I can run it 11:57:39 apout? 11:58:07 elliott: ability and will yes, time no; I'm willing to delegate 11:58:07 binary translator/syscall emulator for old unix pdp-11 software 11:58:12 heh 11:58:32 Speaking of terminals (earlier), the "search for books" public terminals at Helsinki libraries used to be VT-420s. You could twiddle them to the setup mode if you wanted, and get some higher-resolution things going. (And/or break the communications link if you messed with the settings too much.) 11:58:50 I think they've replaced those with plain old x86 PCs a decade or so ago, though. 11:58:57 Vorpal: I use it to run my unix v6 binaries (currently ed and dc) 11:59:10 lol 12:00:15 for some reason zzo38's deadfish implementation didn't really run very nicely under my dc... 12:00:31 you should mention it to him directly? 12:01:09 Also I seem to remember you could quit out from the book-search application, but all that got you was a login screen of some Unix, so it wasn't too exciting. Plus then no-one could again use the terminal. 12:01:41 hah 12:01:42 Vorpal: I don't think he thinks maintaining support for unix v6 dc is important 12:01:53 don't be too sure with zzo 12:02:36 I think it would work with unix v7 dc but I am not building another ancient unix from scracth 12:04:10 -!- nooga has joined. 12:09:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:12:23 wow. teco is 700kB in size 12:12:53 Such bloat. 12:13:37 well my ed 6.2kB 12:15:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:15:46 hm how do you reset zoom level in chrome? 12:16:17 Ctrl-0 sounds familiar. 12:16:28 ah yes 12:16:29 that's it 12:16:58 The "wrench menu" zoom tool doesn't seem to have a thing for it. 12:17:17 okay these results are strange... I tried a font test in the browser (on windows), turns out that while Segoe UI at 8 pt is larger than Tahoma at the same size, the reverse is true at 9 pt 12:17:20 that is just odd 12:17:49 * Vorpal is trying to find a suitable font to replace Segoe UI with on windows 12:18:05 Sgeo UI. 12:18:10 because it looks terrible with cleartype off, and with cleartype on everything else looks horrible 12:18:14 fizzie, no :P 12:18:30 I need a font with the same metric though 12:19:33 MS Sans Serif isn't even close either 12:21:36 umh. can someone help me with TECO? 12:22:54 hm MS Sans Serif and Arial have almost the same metric, in fact they look almost identical as well. Very tiny difference there. 12:24:11 Vorpal: The Google-commissioned "Open Sans" is I think somewhat similar to Segoe. (Not terribly much so, but somewhat.) 12:24:54 Don't know about character set coverage and such. 12:29:02 why would google want to make a font? 12:29:48 anyway it looks slightly blurry to me. 12:29:55 almost like it is forcing cleartype 12:29:56 ugh 12:30:11 so yeah, not good 12:31:25 fizzie, on linux I use full hinting and greyscale antialias. I'm okay with no antialias if the font is good for that (like arial, tahoma and MS Sans Serif) 12:31:45 verdana is perfectly readable without antialias too btw 12:35:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:36:05 OK, fuck boss fights, and fuck Psychonauts for having boss fights. 12:36:14 Phantom_Hoover, which one was a problem? 12:36:28 "Nearly finished this area? WELL NOW YOU GET TO PLAY THE SAME FUCKING SECTION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN" 12:36:38 Vorpal, the Phantom. 12:36:51 Phantom_Hoover, oh that, it was fairly easy. Just use the lights 12:37:03 Vorpal: Well, you know, Google does have some user interfaces. I've heard they've got sites in the web, and this mobile thing called Nordraid or something. 12:37:08 Yeah, I get that you twat. 12:37:11 I didn't die once during that. Also just buy some of those caramel things that restore your HP if you run out 12:37:17 that helps a lot 12:37:27 Oh that's fucking great to know in THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT. 12:37:28 you can carry a max of 3, but that helps a lot 12:37:40 THANKS GAME FOR TELLING ME THAT I COULD GET THAT 12:37:46 Phantom_Hoover, uh it is in the shop? 12:37:52 you surely must have noticed that 12:38:08 fizzie, har har 12:38:28 Yeah Vorpal you realise that beyond mentioning the shop about once the game gives you no indication as to what anything does, and of course all the actual items have cutesy little descriptions which don't actually tell you what they /do/. 12:39:10 err, you can press some button to show a desc 12:39:23 forgot which one, it does say on the side 12:39:26 and it is fairly detailed 12:39:47 (the voice acting for the item needs to complete first) 12:40:09 I love how Psychonauts' interface is like this Platonically perfect terrible one. 12:40:12 sure, it could be more obvious, but it isn't as bad as you make it out to be 12:40:47 I mean right at the start you have to spend like 10 seconds watching all the animations they put between you and loading a save. 12:40:47 agree, the interface could be way better, for example: the main menu interface, while cute, is rather annoying 12:40:56 right 12:41:11 and that bed system if you don't select "continue" 12:41:13 Not to mention that the controls are painfully obviously a terrible console port. 12:41:29 well yes 12:41:49 I would definitely like more ability keys than the three current 12:42:06 wow. TECO is awesome 12:42:45 Not just that; things like the inventory paging system which basically ground the game to a halt while I looked for help. 12:43:15 Phantom_Hoover, hm? It is kind of slow and cumbersome, but why did you look for help? 12:43:55 one thing that annoy me is that the 2 and z in the key bindings look like they are the same char 12:44:05 so I was like "how can that be bound to the same key" for a while 12:44:18 1 opens your inventory. 2 opens your abilities. Pressing 2 while looking at your inventory opens abilities... unless you have multiple pages of inventory, in which case it flips to the second page. 12:44:39 Phantom_Hoover, indeed, slow and cumbersome, but why look for help? 12:44:45 If you miss the brief tooltip saying it's 2 to change pages or confuse it for a z? 12:45:01 Have fun trying to find out how it works, because the game's certainly not going to tell you. 12:45:17 Not on the inventory screen, not in the keybindings, nowhere. 12:45:31 Phantom_Hoover, I /did/ confuse it for a z, until I rebound it to g for a bit, then I went like "hmm, maybe it was actually 2?" 12:45:48 and changed it back 12:46:08 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:46:16 But the point is that the key is really unintuitive, especially on a keyboard, and the game makes no effort to compensate that. 12:46:27 2 or z? 12:46:31 2. 12:47:02 not really, the keys are laid out for using with one hand, and the other hand on the mouse, 1 and 2 are easy to reach when using wasd to move around 12:47:11 Hello 12:47:43 Vorpal, I'm saying that /there is no reason to think that will be the key to change page/. 12:47:50 hm okay 12:47:53 Not that it's a particularly /bad/ key to do it. 12:48:00 well true, I did notice when the game told me the first time 12:48:26 Phantom_Hoover, what I did miss was when it told me to use F to turn around when swinging. Had to google that 12:48:31 I should apparently arrange some time to play that game, I'm all "out" all the time nowadays. 12:48:36 Yep, missed that too. 12:48:44 Phantom_Hoover, then I died, and restarted so it told me a second time 12:49:09 fizzie, you should probably play it on that gamepad you mentioned; you may have gathered that the devs spent absolutely no effort whatsoever on porting the controls. 12:49:32 I've gathered it's a somewhat consoly game, yes. 12:49:57 Phantom_Hoover, not really /that/ bad. It is not like the game would have told you about turning around while swinging any better on a pad 12:50:22 No, but things like the inventory system are clearly geared to a gamepad. 12:50:26 well yes 12:50:37 Also the targeting system is maybe less abysmal on a gamepad? I don't know. 12:50:43 hm, not sure 12:50:54 I don't own a game pad, so I don't really have the required experience for it 12:51:06 but yes, the lock on is somewhat annoying. 12:51:18 Phantom_Hoover, also mouse acceleration vertically is off IMO. 12:51:39 I gave up completely on looking up or down. 12:52:00 also I think I selected inverted up/down, except in first person view it is the opposite of third person view now 12:52:01 The game clearly doesn't want me to do it, why else would they make it so hard? 12:52:21 I don't really have "gamepad reflexes" down very well, I've done so little with it. It's got those sticks, I think they're kinda important nowadays. 12:52:21 not sure if it is inverted if you didn't change it from the default though 12:53:49 I wonder how that new Wii U thing with the touch screen is going to affect console ports, are we going to get better mapping of abilities perhaps? 12:53:59 ... 12:54:04 hm? 12:54:10 Vorpal when have you ever heard of a console port of a Wii game 12:54:41 Alien Syndrome had a PSP port 12:54:49 What was that thing with a touchscreen in the back? 12:54:50 Phantom_Hoover, well no, but other vendors are going to copy their idea if it is successful. Like the motion control thingy. The Playstation Move, Kinect and so on 12:55:09 fizzie, no that is the PS Vita iirc 12:55:12 handheld 12:55:14 s/console port/PC port/ 12:55:24 Right, the Vita. 12:55:40 Phantom_Hoover, err, right 12:56:00 Anyway, I find it hard to believe people are going to be looking at the Wii U touchscreen much; it sounds rather tiresome to keep flipping focus between the in-hand mini-screen and the few-metres-away TV. 12:56:05 Wasn't World of Goo orignally for the Wii? 12:56:11 Phantom_Hoover, played Bastion yet? That is a good console port. 12:56:20 Yes, it is. 12:56:25 Taneb, surely it must have been for mobile? 12:56:40 it seems so obvious that it should be a touchscreen or mouse 12:56:43 Taneb: "World of Goo was first released both for Windows and WiiWare in North America on October 13, 2008." 12:56:46 Windows and WiiWare originally 12:56:47 I can't even see a console controller working 12:56:49 huh 12:56:49 okay 12:56:52 I knew it was Wii early on 12:57:13 WiiWare, is that like xbox live? 12:57:20 Vorpal, you... do know that the Wii remote works as a pointer, right? 12:57:30 Also it's Nintendo's software distribution service. 12:57:32 Vorpal, yes 12:57:38 Phantom_Hoover, so yes then 12:57:40 XBox live arcade or somehting 12:57:41 It's like a stylus except with a big gap. :p 12:57:43 ah right 12:57:52 Phantom_Hoover, hm, I was under the impression that the accuracy wasn't all that good 12:57:59 never used a Wii though myself 12:58:12 It's not awful 12:58:16 It's decent, although if you put it against a window it's a bitch to use. 12:58:22 doesn't it need recentering all the time iirc? 12:58:37 Not really 12:58:43 watched a bit of an LP of skyward sword, and the guy kept recentering a lot 12:59:17 I went mad trying to play Twilight Princess in Ireland because the room was laid out so the TV was right in front of a sweeping vista of some hills and sheep and a few reflective surfaces, and the weather decided to clear up just for me. 12:59:28 ouch 13:01:16 World of Kinect-Goo would let you get your hands dirty, I suppose. 13:01:26 fizzie, does it actually exist? 13:01:33 No clue. 13:01:45 anyway kinect has horrible accuracy from what I heard 13:02:03 Apparently not officially, but there's a video of people doing it. 13:02:08 Dwarf Fortress adventure mode on the Kinect would be surprisingly elegant. 13:02:12 "The position of your hand is mapped to the cursor, and then we recognize you opening and closing your hand to grab and release the goo." 13:02:21 It just does exactly what you do in the game world. 13:02:38 (Using the PC version and the Kinect SDK, of course.) 13:02:46 Phantom_Hoover, and that is? 13:03:01 (or isn't there a punchline here?) 13:03:02 Hacking people's third fingers, right hand off. 13:03:17 fizzie, ah 13:03:36 The video seems somewhat flailing-aroundy, but maybe not quite as much I expected. It's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0j1YsDmAXA 13:04:12 Not a precision controller by any means. 13:05:06 indeed 13:05:19 I heard the PS Move has pretty good accuracy though 13:05:36 never really seen it used much 13:07:33 Did not realise World of Goo had such an overwrought soundtrack. 13:07:42 " OK, fuck boss fights, and fuck Psychonauts for having boss fights." yeah why do they have to make them so excruciatingly easy 13:08:02 hah 13:08:06 Did not realize World of Goo had a soundtrack at all. 13:08:26 oklopol: Only humans count in game discussions, sorry. 13:08:55 actually all the boss fights (so far, haven't quite finished the game yet) are quite easy once you figure out what the trick is 13:09:18 Difficulty isn't my biggest gripe, it's repetition. 13:09:44 I think the one against Dogan's brain in the brain tumbler experiment was probably the trickiest one so far 13:10:30 It's "do it again, stupid" gameplay, even once you've learnt the trick. 13:11:03 Do you refer to that the bosses doesn't vary their attacks very much or what? 13:11:26 No, I'm referring to how if you die in a boss fight you're reset to the start and you can't save. 13:12:03 Phantom_Hoover, well, buy that candy to avoid that 13:12:06 Repeating the same things over and over again isn't 'challenging', it's annoying. 13:12:22 it will refill your health when you run out, and you can carry three of them 13:12:27 so more than enough usually 13:13:15 Phantom_Hoover, it has some really creative level design though. Especially with the mad people in the asylum. 13:13:25 Oh yeah, the level design is amazing. 13:13:42 Phantom_Hoover, have you entered the mind of Fred Bonaparte yet? 13:13:47 I went wow at that 13:13:49 It normally makes up for all the flaws, but when the game sticks a giant, annoying wall in the way of seeing more level design? 13:14:10 Vorpal, I haven't completed the Phantom fight. 13:14:25 Phantom_Hoover, right, I think you can do those minds in any order though 13:14:56 I have this terrible suspicion that if I leave Gloria's mind I'll have to redo everything. 13:15:50 possibly, you could make a save and try it though 13:15:57 and there are those teleport creatures 13:17:26 Phantom_Hoover, anyway that boss fight is not all that difficult. And you could use the piece of bacon to "regroup at HQ", go out and buy some candy and go back in by talking to Ford Cruller. Should get you back near it at least. 13:17:39 fizzie: you do realize you have beat me in games on multiple occasions 13:17:48 (at least slightly) 13:18:00 oklopol: I recall no such thing. 13:18:16 not sure what happens to figments when using that option though, since there is a visual effect when using it that looks like figments flying away from you 13:18:22 never tried it inside a mind in fact 13:18:28 I even gave up that Dot Action 2 thing at some point. 13:19:26 Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you start the fight with full health it is easy. Which level are you at? I was probably around 50 or so at that point I think 13:21:52 fizzie: there was that game where you were a stick figure, and then there was that game where you were a robot which you programmed around town. 13:22:29 oklopol: I vaguely recall the second one, it was that thing with the tiles. But I don't remember what happened. And I don't remember a stick figure. 13:23:01 which i guess we were roughly equally good at and Deewiant was incredibly slow but did some of the really hard puzzles on the first attempt, so comparison was hard. and everyone not finnish of course sucked ass. 13:23:22 stick figure was that game with a hundred levels where you could just move left and right and jump 13:23:30 and the other was robozzle or something 13:23:32 That's Dot Action 2, exactly. 13:23:42 And I think you got further in it than I. 13:23:52 didn't we both beat it? 13:23:56 maybe you stopped near the end 13:24:06 There was the labyrinth thing at level ninety-something, I gave up at that, or soon after. 13:24:19 stick figure was that game with a hundred levels where you could just move left and right and jump <-- platformer? 13:24:29 Vorpal: Dot action 2. Certainly you remember it. 13:24:37 don't think I played it 13:24:39 oh right, i think i did that on the second attempt, might have quit if i had been less lucky 13:26:41 Vorpal: Maybe so. You apparently asked about it in 2009, and ehird explained what it's like. 13:26:56 It's a web flash thing. 13:27:43 I did dig out the all-levels codes from the swf file, though. 13:28:01 It's got eight extra levels after the first 100 normal ones. 13:28:26 so in fact it has 108 levels? 13:28:53 Yes, but the final 8 don't really count, because you get access to all of them after beating level 100. 13:32:26 fizzie, oh so you can access the other 100 in any order you want? 13:33:02 No. 13:33:12 You can access the 8 in any order, after beating level 100. 13:33:33 You can access level 100 after beating level 99, you can access level 99 after beating level 98, and so on. 13:34:03 So the last 8 aren't part of the ordinary progression. (Also, they're in a completely different level list.) 13:34:19 [2008-11-23 14:40:39] < fizzie> I did a half-hearted attempt at 93, but missed one blue dot in the lava room. 13:34:23 I got at least that far. 13:36:05 It might have been at that point that oko blazed past me and I gaved up. 13:42:04 -!- elliott has joined. 13:42:29 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest19280. 13:42:45 -!- Guest19280 has changed nick to elliott. 13:42:47 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 13:42:47 -!- elliott has joined. 13:44:10 hi 13:44:10 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:45:11 00:45:25: CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME 13:45:19 i thought it wasn't visible in Europe anyway. 13:45:48 elliott, that wall is oerjan's floor 13:46:05 ah. 13:47:34 07:25:14: Meanwhile, I still don't know who he was. Maybe now's the time to check Wikipedia. 13:47:39 Sure it was; quite a lot of people watched it in Finland. 13:47:40 Deewiant: Fahrenheit 451. 13:47:54 fizzie: Well, ISTR it wasn't visible in the UK, and what's the difference? 13:48:11 elliott, you may have been thinking of the last one 13:48:19 "Visible in its entirety from Hawaii, Alaska, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific and Eastern Asia, with the beginning of the transit visible from North America and the end visible from Europe" 13:48:20 Taneb: This one was visible??? 13:48:20 Or being confused by cloud cover 13:48:26 I looked at all the websites and all! 13:48:30 What did it look like. 13:48:36 Clouds 13:48:41 Thanks 13:48:56 I didn't watch it, but in Helsinki there was a break in the cloud cover for approximately a minute. 13:49:10 It looked like a tiny dot in front of a glowy thing (Sun). 13:49:13 07:43:24: Well the Quatermass Experiment had 5 million viewers at its peak and it came out in '53, and that's got to be at least a tenth of the UK population at the time. 13:49:22 Phantom_Hoover: Should I watch that BTW I've always been tempted by the cool name. 13:49:33 fizzie: Did you stare at the sun??? 13:49:36 I'd stare at the sun. :( 13:49:45 I stare at the sun quite a lot. Possibly not the best thing I do. 13:49:47 No. I didn't have any protective eqibblement. 13:49:54 fizzie: I meant directly. 13:50:04 http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/transit/V_2012/world_2012.png -- the northern tip of Finland I think saw the thing in its entirety, that's what the white part I think means. 13:50:18 Here in "the south" it was just partially visible. 13:51:12 Apparently it looked like this: http://hs10.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/960/1305572999091?ts=1053 13:51:22 Exciting! 13:51:24 It just looks like the other spots. 13:51:29 Are we sure Venus really exists? 13:51:37 It's a bit darker, I think. 13:51:52 Yes. A little. 13:52:16 10:01:20: Aw, the Kielipankki corpus files have mode 600, I can't check what's the longest actually-used word in that. 13:52:21 fizzie: Is that to prevent COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT? 13:52:51 elliott: It's either that, or just that no-one else than Vesa has actually bothered to touch the original files, so no-one has noticed he hasn't made them group-readable. 13:53:03 Anyway, there'll be another Venus transit in 2117, it's not like it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing. 13:53:21 fizzie: Who gave Vesa root? Who is even Vesa anyway??? 13:53:28 Also, I don't anticipate living that long. :( 13:53:44 I don't think Vesa has root, but the files are owned by him since he presumably put them there. 13:54:05 umask strikes back. 13:54:08 Oh, I was assuming 600 with owner root. 13:54:10 For Some Reason. 13:54:19 For Some Values Of Reason. 13:54:33 I don't think Vesa even works here any more. 13:55:32 fizzie: Well, they probably fired em. After all, there are better graphics modes these days. 13:55:34 Yeah, he's that guy who works at Rosetta Stone somewhere in the US nowadays. 13:56:18 Well, I can't say the stone is particularly high resolution. 13:56:20 (Rosetta Stone does language-learning software that's somewhat notable.) 13:56:52 I know. 13:57:05 I considered "pirating" it once, but it looked ineffective. 13:57:27 It's won awards and all. It has Dynamic Immersion technology. 13:57:38 (I don't know what that means.) 13:57:46 It immerses. 13:57:47 Dynamically. 13:58:42 fizzie: does it say whether i finished the game? 13:59:04 oklopol: I think you did. At least you were in level 98 or so at that point. 14:00:06 okay seems hard to believe i'd have stopped then. 14:00:30 [2008-11-23 15:34:24] < oklopol> bleh i'll do 98 later tonight. 14:00:37 especially as i have this feeling that the last levels were surprisingly easy 14:00:43 Then it was about cyphers for God to solve. 14:00:49 Wait. 14:00:50 Which game? 14:00:57 dot 14:00:59 action 14:00:59 [2008-11-23 22:49:41] < oklopol> can someone solve 99 for me? 14:00:59 2 14:01:02 :D 14:01:03 oklopol: You're playing Dot Action 2 again??? 14:01:04 There you are. 14:01:09 darn 14:01:14 have to check whether i solved it 14:01:17 or solve it just in case 14:01:22 fizzie: What started this. 14:01:22 Oh, 99 was a maze too. 14:01:35 elliott: I blamed oklopol for being too good in games. 14:01:55 fizzie: Isn't Dot Action 2 the bestest? 14:02:00 You should play it too. 14:04:02 I played like seven levels before I remembered I'm at work. 14:04:47 10:18:07: Vorpal: you can disable that 14:04:48 10:18:14: nortti, where? 14:04:48 10:18:21: trying to look for that setting atm 14:04:49 10:18:45: Vorpal: about:config . you can also switch to old tab behaviour from there 14:04:53 Vorpal: You can just press an X on the screen or something. 14:05:01 Or do it in about:config if you want to waste a bunch of time, I guess. 14:05:02 But it's "hide" and not "disable"! 14:05:34 "If you are concerned about your privacy, you can turn this feature off completely: In the Location bar, type about:config ..." -- support.mozilla.org. 14:05:47 Since they say it like that, certainly there's some valid privacy concerns involved. 14:06:09 (I don't know what they could be.) 14:06:50 it tracs what sites you visit the most? 14:07:16 I'm pretty sure it tracks history no matter what you set "browser.newtab.url" to. 14:07:31 It's not like the ATTAKCER couldn't just type in "about:newtab" to see the page. 14:07:39 You mean my browser KNOWS WHERE I GO ON THE INTERNET???? 14:07:45 ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOO 14:07:51 Oi. 14:07:51 fungot. 14:07:54 NOOOOOO. 14:07:55 fizzie: Fix it. 14:07:59 There was a network problem. A moment. 14:08:52 -!- fungot has joined. 14:08:58 ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOO 14:08:58 NOOOOOOOOOOOO 14:09:01 I feel whole. 14:09:43 I suppose if you're sitting next to an ENEMY it's faster for him to new-tab + click-the-unhide to see your PORN SITES than it would be for him to new-tab and type-"about:newtab". 14:09:50 10:34:24: oklopol: I suppose you're the same oklopol who's been commenting at http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html in 2009? 14:09:51 :D 14:09:56 fizzie: That's impomatic's blog, by the way. 14:10:06 15:09 I suppose if you're sitting next to an ENEMY it's faster for him to new-tab + click-the-unhide to see your PORN SITES than it would be for him to new-tab and type-"about:newtab". 14:10:07 Oh, I did not realizibble. 14:10:14 Just use IE's "InPrivate" browsing mode! 14:10:29 It's designed for gifts but — and don't tell anyone this — it ALSO WORKS FOR PORNOGRAPHY. 14:10:34 Or so I hear. 14:11:32 fizzie: So is fizziew like fizzie but it doesn't start a console window? 14:11:50 Something like that. 14:11:56 (Actually it's 'w' for 'work'.) 14:12:06 Well, you know. Work is all about the GUIs. 14:12:18 Since you're a speech recognition researcher, you never do anything valuable like program in a terminal and so on. 14:12:54 I see the whole "Do-Not-Track by default thing" has died. 14:13:00 (IE and so on.) 14:13:26 Seemingly it violates the specification. Sort of. 14:14:01 I vaguely remember "They" had some demands about how Do-Not-Track must user-interfacistically and defaultically behave before they'd agree to actually (pretend to) obey it. 14:14:21 "(1) Today we reaffirmed the group consensus that a user agent MUST NOT set a default of DNT:1 or DNT:0, unless the act of selecting that user agent is itself a choice that expresses the user’s preference for privacy. In all cases, a DNT signal MUST be an expression of a user’s preference. []…]" 14:14:33 Oh, right. 14:14:34 But you could always just have it be an on-by-default thing in the installer or something. 14:14:42 Just like you "choose" to agree with EULAs. 14:14:54 (Also s/[]…]/[…]/. [sic] on that.) 14:15:06 fizzie: The Do-Not-Track thing is a bit silly. It's like the evil bit. 14:15:07 It can be also on by default if your browser has a privacy theme, because then "that user agent is itself a choice". 14:15:23 How did people decide it was a good idea, exactly? 14:15:50 It is a "step toward putting you in control", according to Mozilla. 14:16:13 (Don't you just love ad companies?) 14:18:26 EFF's all about Do Not Truck, I've seem mentions in their blag often. 14:19:11 If you set the Do Not Truck header to "1", Google Image search will not return images of trucks, even if they would otherwise match your query. (Not true.) 14:21:26 11:42:20: Sourceforge "user review" for SPIM, the MIPS(32) simulator: "One of the best FTP clients I've tried for GNU/Linux and Windows" 14:21:26 11:42:28: I, uh. Okay. 14:21:27 :D 14:22:10 11:49:43: http://blog.agdunn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/xspim1.png -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/spimsimulator/screenshots/313041 it is a bit of a modernization. 14:22:10 11:50:33: imo the old was much better 14:22:10 Shocking. 14:22:25 Gregor: I bet HackEgo still uses bash. 14:24:57 `ps 14:25:05 PID TTY TIME CMD \ 272 ? 00:00:00 init \ 274 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 276 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 277 ? 00:00:00 cat 14:25:10 `run ps | grep bash 14:25:13 276 ? 00:00:00 bash 14:25:22 seems to 14:25:44 elliott: what shell should HackEgo use then? 14:26:07 nortti: You said ash, I think. 14:26:19 yes. 14:26:39 that or sash bwahahaha 14:27:22 12:29:02: why would google want to make a font? 14:27:27 Chromebooks. 14:27:33 (More generally, the Chromium OS thing.) 14:31:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:31:47 (If you don't know what it is like to use sash download http://fpaste.dy.fi/oB7/dl That is the better version) 14:32:26 that is staticaly linked sash 3.7 with patches I use in my own minidistro 14:33:56 12:57:20: Vorpal, you... do know that the Wii remote works as a pointer, right? 14:34:00 (It is kind of inconvenient.) 14:35:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:35:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 14:35:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:36:10 13:11:26: No, I'm referring to how if you die in a boss fight you're reset to the start and you can't save. 14:36:17 Mumble mumble permadeath. 14:36:43 elliott: The FTP client review is, incidentally, only six hours old (was three when I pasted), and written by a "Titus Higginbotham". 14:37:45 elliott: why did you say "I bet HackEgo still uses bash." to Gregor? 14:37:53 nortti: No reason. 14:38:23 13:28:01: It's got eight extra levels after the first 100 normal ones. 14:38:26 And they're all impossible. 14:38:28 At least for me. 14:38:52 I think one of them was not too bad. But mostly they were horrible. 14:38:58 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:39:15 I might have completed one, I think. 14:39:17 Also rather fanciful. There was a picture of a cat or something. 14:39:27 quintopia: Whoa, a *new* spelevator? 14:40:10 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 14:40:44 05:56:53: asiekierka_: Did you add the XKCD variation of Deadfish? If so, why? 14:40:50 wait, it was not in the original? 14:41:15 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=10505&oldid=9188 what, he ruined it 14:42:21 indeed, asiekierka did add it. 14:42:30 probably it should have its own article, then 14:43:29 09:43:46: Gregor, that is getting a Like 14:43:32 Taneb: I thought you "deleted". 14:43:41 elliott, I have two accounts 14:43:45 Taneb... 14:43:46 One of which is now "deleted" 14:44:03 I made the second when the first one had too many friends to load the chat bar 14:44:24 Gregor: "Very cool serendipitous interaction. You should have asked to send the pic to you." 14:44:39 "What is this do you think you are Fabio now?" 14:44:44 Facebook! I love Facebook. 14:44:50 I think I will listen to that Thank You Facebook song later. 14:44:54 To show how much I love Facebook. 14:46:45 19:20:08: the main clojure guy really Gets It in terms of the relationship between functional and imperative programming 14:47:04 kmc: Gets It to the point where its STM implementation just errors out noisily at runtime if you happen to try and do anything "unsafe" in a transaction? 14:49:08 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:49:32 wow. my minidistro compiles userspace in 1m 45s on my machine 14:52:12 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:54:53 20:56:57: David Rees and Blackwing Pencils: Artisanal Pencil Sharpening http://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8 14:54:55 see http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/ 15:02:29 21:26:19: You don't get exp when knocked-out, so Crono spends quite a lot of time unconscious. 15:02:30 :D 15:05:07 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:07:49 fizzie: How much did you pay for the Bundle? 15:07:51 Vorpal: How much did you pay for the Bundle? 15:07:53 Taneb: How much did you pay for the Bundle? 15:07:55 Phantom_Hoover: How much did you pay for the Bundle? 15:07:57 shachaf: How much did you pay for the Bundle? 15:08:07 elliott, what makes you think I've bought it 15:08:13 Taneb: Why wouldn't you have? 15:08:15 It's the bestest one. 15:08:29 Just spent a lot of money; have little left; already have Amnesia 15:08:55 Bastion! Psychonauts! 15:08:58 Everyone loves those games. 15:09:09 22:25:38: Hey, it's that IPv6 launch day today. (Well, yesterday already, as seen from here.) 15:09:12 fizzie: esolangs.org is TAKING PART. 15:09:21 My ISP is not. 15:09:22 Does Humble Bundle accept cash? 15:09:27 Taneb - not at al! 15:09:32 :( 15:10:13 not at al 15:10:19 notat al 15:10:23 No tat, Al. 15:11:50 22:59:50: $ host 193.0.14.129 15:11:50 22:59:50: 129.14.0.193.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer k.root-servers.net. 15:11:50 22:59:51: ERROR:Word not found 15:11:53 nortti: This prefix seems suboptimal. 15:12:43 elliott: what do you suggest then? 15:12:59 I don't know. There aren't many left. 15:13:05 "oonbotti: " would work. :p 15:13:21 hmm. is \ used for anything? 15:14:13 \o/ 15:14:18 ... myndzi? 15:14:19 Noooooo 15:14:22 ^celebrate 15:14:22 \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/ 15:14:24 R.I.P. 15:14:26 Pietbot uses ), when it is alive 15:14:35 (I've reserved ) for this channel) 15:14:49 elliott: it meant "\ " without the quotation marks 15:15:10 I suppose that could work, yes. Ooh, ooh, how about the Euro symbol? :p 15:15:32 or £ 15:16:02 (I have it at AltGr-3) 15:16:07 You are not British! 15:17:52 or what avout ¤ 15:18:14 You're not... uh... in international waters? 15:20:04 ½ would also be pretty nice 15:20:12 œ 15:20:13 ∂ 15:20:14 † 15:20:17 So many good prefices. 15:20:21 • 15:20:22 ¶ 15:20:22 ¨ 15:20:23 ~ 15:20:25 µ 15:20:26 §" 15:20:27 ˚ 15:20:29 « 15:20:31 ç® 15:20:33 ∑∑∑∑ 15:20:35 å 15:20:37 ¥ 15:20:49 Oops, that ~ one is ASCII. TOO ASCII. 15:21:04 ¡ 15:21:20 Well, you know what shachaf says. 15:21:24 ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI. 15:21:28 ASCII silly question, get a silly Unicode. 15:22:44 ñ 15:22:59 ¢ 15:22:59 ∞ 15:23:00 § 15:23:04 ›ÂÏÒ„‰Ï∏ 15:23:06 Ϙ∏Ø„‰˜∏Ø 15:24:40 "I am using kaspersky internet security 2012 full version. It is the king of antiviruses." 15:24:50 ... 15:30:28 #quit 15:30:32 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 15:31:11 Add an #esoteric command. 15:31:12 :p 15:35:42 -!- oonbotti has joined. 15:35:56 $ foo 15:35:59 \ foo 15:36:10 ' foo 15:36:10 ERROR:Word not found 15:36:12 shit 15:36:15 #quit 15:36:15 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit). 15:37:06 -!- oonbotti has joined. 15:37:10 \ foo 15:37:10 ERROR:Word not found 15:37:22 http://ompldr.org/vZTVrdQ/stackoverflow.com-q-10931271.html 15:37:38 \ words 15:37:38 : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R> 15:38:16 elliott: what? 15:38:21 Ooh, there's another. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10930338/buying-a-so-account (It's identical.) 15:38:23 nortti: Yes. 15:39:40 someone wants to buy stack overfrow account. but why? 15:39:47 For the reps! 15:39:52 This is a paragraph. 15:39:53 This is a paragraph. 15:39:54 This is a paragraph. 15:39:55 Thank you 15:40:09 Anyway, it even says it in the post! To "start good with the community". 15:40:15 Perhaps I'll sell mine. 15:40:23 why are the reps so important 15:40:24 I'm sure I could make, like, $3. 15:40:31 nortti: To start good with the community! 15:40:45 (Also you can vote to delete posts and stuff? I'm sure that's important to start good with the community.) 15:45:18 #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo 15:45:31 ... 15:46:31 elliott: #esoteric is now implemented by the way 15:46:40 Oh dear. 15:47:24 what? 15:49:01 #esoteric isn't the least common thing to start lines with in #esoteric, I think. 15:49:01 Nothing here 15:49:10 Well, it's accurate. 15:49:49 elliott: I can remove that if you want 15:49:59 No, it's very accurate. 15:51:08 well at least it doesn't post ascii goatse 15:52:17 It should! 15:52:26 ok. I'll implement that 15:52:32 :( 15:53:14 My quest to right unreadable Haskell code has hit a slight hitch 15:53:19 It's unreadable 15:53:21 Try wronging it instead. 15:53:28 if you don't want it I don't implement it 15:53:32 *write 15:53:36 (I think phonetically) 15:53:43 I think ASCII goatse might not be the ideal thing to spam the channel with, no. 15:53:44 elliott: The logo of a nearby driving school has gotten a lot more suggestive since the Internet age: http://www.haaganautokoulu.fi/wp-content/themes/thematic/img/header.jpg 15:54:03 fizzie: I wonder what the triangle is. 15:54:20 So, instead of printing the fibonacci sequence, it prints segfaults 15:54:33 And that's what happen when I get confused 15:54:34 Possibly it tries to be a traffic sign, we have many triangular ones. 15:55:02 Taneb: Huh? 15:55:11 Haskell programs should never segfault unless you use unsafe things like the FFI. 15:55:16 You should report a GHC bug. 15:55:19 It uses unsafe things 15:55:29 Ooh, then I wanna see. 15:55:29 hpaste! 15:55:31 Well, thing 15:55:51 Hold on, let me get it to the thing that doesn't work like it doesn't work 15:56:35 (If it's just unsafePerformIO, it still probably shouldn't segfault.) 15:56:38 fizzie: :D. On my school there was a band called "Go at sea" 15:56:47 elliott, unsafeCoerce 15:56:53 Ah. Well then. 15:57:15 http://hpaste.org/69662 15:57:38 it was pretty funny when whole school starts shouting "Goatsea! Goatsea!" 15:57:39 Most of the unsafeCoerces can be replaced with ids 15:58:42 Taneb: That i looks susceptible to the monomorphism restriction. 15:58:47 Perhaps give it a type signature. 15:59:00 (At the top level, not in the expression, I think.) 15:59:15 fizzie: the bands logo has two hand ripping a hole in a cloud 15:59:24 *band's 16:01:52 nortti: Heh. I think I've heard Haagan Autokoulu being referred to as "Goatse-autokoulu". 16:02:14 I think pair may be wrong 16:03:15 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:53 fizzie: they had to change band's name though. (I suspect one of the teachers ran into goatse.) They renamed it "Meet spin" 16:07:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:09:42 -!- elliott has joined. 16:11:01 zzo38: ping 16:12:06 elliott: I think the problem is, I have no idea what type fibs should be 16:12:11 everyone: brb 16:12:27 Taneb: It may very well have no type. 16:12:36 When in doubt, try giving it the type "a". :p 16:13:29 "Reason for Moderation Work [...] Wants to leave the crowd of normal users and become special member of Stack Overflow with The Diamond Privilege." 16:15:12 fizzie: Don't you miss NSQX? 16:15:16 I miss NSQX. 16:16:33 what? has he stopped 16:18:51 He hasn't edited or come here in ~days, at least. 16:18:59 Since 2 May, it seems. 16:19:07 Also I still have to feature a new language, like, days ago. 16:19:20 Go with eodermdrone 16:19:26 (still brb) 16:21:13 Back 16:22:36 elliott: feature HQ9+ 16:22:45 That's not even a candidate. 16:22:57 why? 16:23:47 BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T NOMINATE IT 16:24:44 WHY DO YOU SPEAK IN CAPITAL LETTERS? 16:24:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:24:56 BECAUSE I AM ENRAGED 16:25:10 elliott, added top-level type signatures, still segfaults 16:25:44 The only one with a useless type signature was fibs2 16:30:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: dinner). 16:32:16 #quit 16:32:17 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 16:32:43 -!- oonbotti has joined. 16:35:16 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit). 16:37:57 -!- aloril has joined. 16:43:16 -!- oonbotti has joined. 16:44:47 `pastefortunes 16:44:53 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2581 16:48:52 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:48:54 Hello! 16:51:28 It still doesn't work 16:52:06 hi 16:58:06 Taneb: pong 16:58:07 zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 16:59:00 ?messages 16:59:00 Taneb asked 21h 43m 6s ago: Why is "otherwise" not in Prelude.Generalize? It seems a silly thing to leave out 16:59:00 Taneb asked 20h 49m 26s ago: What's the point of the application$ rule? The only time it'd get fired, the instance of Function for (i -> o) i o already does it 16:59:00 Taneb asked 6h 50m 26s ago: Could you give me a copy of the next version of Prelude.Generalize so I know what'll be in it, please? 16:59:38 Taneb: "otherwise" is not useful at all 16:59:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:01:10 "Fan Dumb: 2DBoy released the game with no DRM whatsoever because they thought they could trust their audience. Their reward was a 90% pirate rate. 17:01:10 " -- TV Tropes on World of Goo. 17:01:40 It still feels really weird when people write stupid things on TV Tropes because I've unified it into one 'voice', the same as WP. 17:01:57 zzo38, it makes guards look better than using True 17:02:07 Phantom_Hoover: You have a unified voice for TV Tropes and it *doesn't* typically say stupid things? 17:02:26 (Also Wikipedia the Person is the funniest person ever.) 17:02:28 TV Tropes articles don't usually say stupid things... 17:02:36 Like, not that stupid. 17:04:18 Also yeah, I love Wikipedia The Person. 17:04:40 The best part is that they occasionally break down and start jibbering nonsense. 17:04:51 The other best part is that they NEVER LAUGH. 17:05:09 Also they keep disclaiming everything they write. 17:05:25 "Bill Gates is gay. (I don't have a citation, though.)" 17:05:37 "Some people (who? I'm not sure.) say Bill Gates is gay." 17:06:08 No I prefer how they completely skip around their own presence in the world. 17:06:28 "Some people have accused Wikipedia of inaccuracy." 17:06:30 ":(" 17:07:05 Taneb: I happen to disagree 17:07:24 Okay, it's your library 17:08:20 Next question? 17:10:42 Actually, the third would be the most productive 17:11:40 OK, I will send what it currently is, but even these I might change before next release 17:11:55 This is really so I can figure out an order 17:12:17 The purpose of the "application$" rule is just things I do not completely understand the rewrite rules 17:12:30 I'll trust you on that 17:12:34 Also, if you want to reorder the exports you can do so 17:12:40 -!- aloril has joined. 17:12:46 Yeah, I need to know what's going to be in them first 17:12:55 http://sprunge.us/ZTIc 17:13:08 Thanks 17:15:05 Could you explain what Part1 etc do? 17:15:25 -!- monqy has joined. 17:15:26 Taneb: It is a generalization of fst, snd, first, second 17:15:37 Okay 17:15:43 @messages? 17:15:44 Sorry, no messages today. 17:15:54 @tell monqy poor monqy hi 17:15:54 Consider it noted. 17:16:06 @messages 17:16:06 Taneb said 12s ago: poor monqy hi 17:18:27 welcome , monqy 17:20:38 monqy: you missed `ansi code fun' 17:20:52 Right, I'm going to write all the things on cards, and order them 17:22:59 #help 17:23:00 #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth 17:24:01 #welcome 17:24:06 welcome 17:24:07 nortti, needs an Eodermdrome interp. 17:24:11 #hello 17:24:18 #welcome monqy 17:24:19 monqy: Welcome to this completely useless channel! 17:24:22 hi 17:24:25 monqy: #welcome is for #esoteric-en 17:24:30 welcome to you too oonboote 17:24:32 #welcom-en 17:24:38 #velkommen 17:24:43 is #esoteric-en a thing 17:24:53 is it a good thing 17:24:55 monqy: it exists 17:25:03 but is it a thing 17:25:47 monqy: did you know coppro plays nethack 4 in hugeterm. this was uncovered a few days ago. "things you missed" 17:25:53 D: 17:25:54 i used hugeterm once! 17:25:58 when i started playing nethack a few years ago 17:26:00 then i stopped. 17:26:21 monqy: ais523 has also said that hugeterm doesn't matter if you have a non-ttyrec recording format that lets others spectate with any terminal size. 17:26:26 "giants; felled" 17:27:02 elliott: all of oonbottis public (for everyone to use) are listed in #help. commands not listed in #help require you to be listed in .botops 17:27:05 but can you watch in "real time" at any size 17:27:13 monqy: yes once he gets around to implementing it 17:27:23 i dont want hugeterms taking up my whole screen when i spec 17:27:28 right 17:27:31 well if i can watch in any size when i watch 17:27:34 hugeterm doesnt matter to me 17:27:37 monqy: it's still wrong! 17:27:40 thats really the only reason i hate hugeterm 17:27:51 say someone played roguelikes exclusively locally 17:27:53 in hugeterm 17:27:58 that would stil lbe wrong! 17:28:01 *still be 17:28:03 it's the locally that's wrong there 17:28:10 well ok 17:28:35 I play in 139x40 17:28:36 it's not AS bad if it doesn't affect other people but 17:28:43 if you're going to use a >80x24 terminal might as well just not use a terminal in the first place! 17:29:26 why 17:29:27 -!- kmc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:29:43 monqy: well, terminals are kind of dumb 17:29:46 I'm not sure if you've noticed 17:29:55 faketerms are also dumb 17:30:15 depends how you define "fake"term 17:30:30 I don't think it's unreasonable to have a screen that shows a grid with the elements being unicode characters 17:30:34 at least with a terminal i get my beautiful font and can copy text from it !!!! 17:30:36 you can make things less termy elsewhere 17:30:43 monqy: you can copy text from a good faketerm too! 17:30:50 and you could set a font with it etc. 17:30:54 and get www. underlined for me 17:30:56 what is a faketerm? 17:31:00 do you like www. being underlined 17:31:03 in crawl krakens make screen a mess 17:31:08 that sounds beautiful 17:31:11 screenshot it at yr earliest opportunity 17:31:14 ok 17:31:26 elliott: i make urls into links and the thing i use for that underlines them 17:31:31 right 17:31:35 havent felt a need to un underline them 17:31:44 bad entry vault idea: spell out http://crawl.develz.org/ with dungeon features 17:32:08 i guess some monsters, a book, some wands 17:32:10 are there any c monsters 17:32:16 centaur 17:32:19 ah yes 17:32:19 yaktaur 17:32:28 what about e 17:32:31 elf 17:32:33 ah yes 17:32:42 too bad it'd break the next turn 17:32:47 why would it 17:32:53 because they'd move 17:32:55 oh right the books 17:32:59 because the :/. would be movable-onto 17:32:59 you could put unseen horrors there 17:33:04 good idea! 17:33:09 or place the items in walls 17:33:18 is that possible 17:33:23 if you're ridiculous 17:33:24 that's almost as bad as rock worms 17:33:28 it's worse 17:33:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:33:35 idk rock worms move 17:33:37 that's disturbing 17:33:50 oh or you could use mimics 17:33:55 just'd have to worry about the . 17:33:57 and the other . 17:33:58 floor mimic 17:34:02 perfect 17:34:11 entry vault where you're surrounded by inept floor mimics 17:34:13 finally a good reason for mimics 17:34:21 "a great entry vault" 17:35:30 hmm 17:35:39 is it possible to get next to the monsters in that entry vault with all the species 17:35:43 -!- kmc has joined. 17:36:24 if you dig the grates 17:36:45 are they made out of plain rock or something tougher? I forget 17:37:00 grates are grates 17:37:15 oh there's an actual thing 17:37:32 basically transparent rock but you can smite-target through them 17:37:33 ok remind me to scum for that entry vault and a D:1 wand of digging/disint sometime 17:37:44 you could also grab a rod of ice or something 17:38:17 does that have smite-targeting? 17:38:21 yeah 17:38:25 that would be nice and risk-free 17:38:49 you'd want some evo for cloud longevity 17:39:05 guess i'll check out the .des, not sure if there's anything expful enough to bother scumming it 17:39:21 ghouls probably 17:39:27 but they won't go down easily 17:39:38 does it matter, if they can't attack you? 17:39:42 just set up a macro and spam it for a year 17:39:45 maybe if you're a spriggan with dispel and some form of mp regen 17:39:56 10:39:42 just set up a macro and spam it for a year 17:39:59 oh, because it'll heal faster than you can regen mp? 17:40:01 assuming they dont outheal you 17:40:03 right 17:40:26 this would probably involve too much startscumming for me to bother with 17:40:54 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:41:00 assuming light you'd also have to scum pandoora for rod of destruction [ice] !! 17:41:04 or something like that 17:41:12 the idea is to do it before leaving D:1 17:41:16 so you "breeze through the rest" 17:41:19 but I guess diving to Pandoora is probably ok 17:41:27 spar; dive to d5 17:41:32 more like SpWn 17:41:34 for the evo skill 17:41:38 what 17:41:43 ar has the best evo skill of any background 17:41:46 it is the 17:41:47 evo class 17:41:50 oh 17:41:54 i didn't know 17:41:56 sp has good evo apt too 17:41:59 i guess that works then!!! 17:42:06 Wn could theoretically give more though right 17:42:34 (is there a way to check those in henzell) 17:42:36 idk but ar has a more useful starting kit for diving and is more reliable 17:42:38 (the background skills, I mean) 17:42:58 zzo38, you're not exporting (!!!) 17:46:30 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:47:03 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:47:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:52:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:54:09 -!- aloril has joined. 17:55:15 5/5, would watch again. http://youtu.be/ertsv-KRnVE 17:55:38 #sendmsg #esoteric-en foo 17:56:04 #sendmsg #esoteric hello 17:56:17 #sendmsg #esoteric hi 18:00:08 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:00:31 #sendmsg is for botops only 18:01:28 am I a botop 18:01:43 monqy: botop for oonbotti 18:02:04 am I a botop for oonboote 18:02:08 if you want to make oonbotti say funny things you can use #echo 18:02:33 monqy: yes but you are not in .botops file so you are not for oonbotti 18:03:11 You know... 18:03:23 I'm fairly sure I saw a Nancy Drew game on sale on Steam a while back, 18:03:50 #echo hurts norte 18:03:51 hurts norte 18:04:08 oonbot no 18:04:23 #echo yes 18:04:24 yes 18:04:34 look at what you have done, monqy 18:07:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:08:24 #echo hi 18:08:25 hi 18:11:47 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:14:45 Hello 18:16:31 eh;llo 18:19:24 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 18:19:27 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:19:32 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:19:50 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 18:21:41 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:21:50 -!- shachaf has joined. 18:27:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:27:52 -!- shachaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:08 -!- shachaf has joined. 18:28:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:28:34 chirp 18:28:35 You know, the word "esoteric" is related to the word "in" 18:28:37 wow 18:28:41 we broke the silence 18:28:42 simultaneously 18:28:49 :D 18:29:03 why does that always happen to me 18:29:10 there must be some like 18:29:13 standard conversational rhythm 18:29:14 that we all adhere to 18:29:19 that tells us when to break the silence 18:29:19 Because Phantom_Hoover is right and we are the same person? 18:32:20 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:33:07 you already live in the same town, if you also happened to be the same person, personally i would get a bit suspicious. 18:33:19 -!- shachaf has joined. 18:34:36 oklopol, shut up, you're the same person as oklofok 18:34:53 Me and elliott are allowed to be the same person if we want, 18:35:35 same person, yes 18:35:41 same town, no diddly doo 18:36:13 And you live in Finland! That's like, the same town as half the channel! 18:36:21 `? Finland 18:36:24 Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. 18:36:31 `? Hexham 18:36:34 Hexham? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:36:51 we don't have an entry on hexham? seriously? 18:36:55 We used to 18:37:38 `learn Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham. 18:37:40 what happened to it? 18:37:41 I knew that. 18:37:47 I don't know 18:38:28 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:41:18 elliott, can you look at http://sprunge.us/HQIN?haskell again? 18:41:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 18:42:09 Taneb: I really don't know, but I suspect it's the unsafeCoerce that's messing it up. :p 18:42:22 Yes, I presume so. 18:42:43 My one that computed powers worked fine, but that didn't have any loops? 18:44:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:44:36 -!- calamari has joined. 18:53:04 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 18:55:05 Taneb: I am exporting (!!!) although the export list is in a messy order. Feel free to change the order of the export list to whatever you want 18:55:23 zzo38, ah, didn't spot it 18:55:34 -Fixed a bug that sometimes caused fleeing monkeys to leap into lava if the player was fire-immune, or into chasms if the player was levitating. 18:55:58 i should try this new version sometime 18:57:20 monqy: are you telling me you don't like your monkeys to leap into lava or chasms 18:57:42 the changes seem "pretty minor" (http://brogue.createforumhosting.com/announcing-brogue-v1-6-3-t384.html) 18:58:02 "I'm glad some developers are capable of listening to their players and scaling back OOD nonsense, as opposed to declaring it "interesting" and making it even worse." hmm, this person in /r/roguelikes seems bitter 19:00:46 *sigh* 19:00:52 Having someone tell me that Clojure is lazy 19:00:59 Person has no Haskell experience 19:01:40 Clojure probably has some lazy structures like lists? 19:01:50 i don't think clojure has implicit laziness 19:02:00 but any language with closures can emulate laziness easily 19:02:06 mroman, correct 19:02:18 I think "implicit laziness" is a silly term, because "explicit laziness" is just "any language with closures", like you said. 19:02:36 If you have to rewrite every data structure to get "lazy" effects, it's useless, so I'd rather just call "implicit laziness" "laziness". 19:02:37 well, you need closures + mutation to get laziness as opposed to just non-strict semantics 19:02:45 (Or even better, "non-strictness". But that's pedantic.) 19:03:07 kmc: Sure, but that isn't really what people think of when talking about that :) 19:04:17 i think it's interesting/funny you can't implement laziness in a strict pure functional language but you can in an impure one 19:04:50 Well, I am not sure about "can't". 19:04:55 You can do it, it'll just be more indirect. 19:04:59 oh? 19:05:04 Sure. 19:05:11 evaluate world thunk (\world' thunkValue -> ...) 19:05:16 Where world is your cache of thunk values, and so on. 19:05:34 "Implementing laziness" is already indirect emulation, it just takes more of it in a pure language. 19:05:57 Is it possible to truly emulate laziness in a language that is already lazy? 19:06:37 And with that bombshell, goodnight! 19:06:41 (I have a book) 19:06:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:18:14 mroman: um. 19:18:22 mroman: you have a very nonstandard definition of "reverse". 19:20:38 hey fizzie 19:20:44 you're good at finding things on the internet 19:21:55 find me a temperature monitor that can do an overlay for fullscreen applications that isn't rivatuner (it's a complete mess and the documentation is inconsistent with what turns up on the screen) 19:22:32 Phantom__Hoover, linux or windows? 19:22:37 Windows. 19:22:41 eh, no idea then 19:26:14 (I keep getting what may or may not be GPU overheats when playing Human Revolution.) 19:27:28 http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/repeatedly 19:27:31 Going to puke 19:27:32 Phantom__Hoover: How did you rule out CPU overheats? 19:27:47 I said "may or may not"! 19:27:49 Sgeo: What's wrong with that? 19:27:50 "Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and 19:27:51 returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls 19:27:51 to it" 19:28:02 Sgeo: What's wrong with that? 19:28:04 The reliance on side-effects to do interesting things 19:28:22 Yes, Clojure is an impure language. Are you surprised? 19:28:53 elliott, and anyway ruling out either would require an overlayable temperature monitor. 19:33:44 Wait if it was a CPU overheat why would it only happen in fullscreen. 19:38:07 bigger pixels 19:38:29 oh 19:45:09 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:46:38 elliott: How should I formulate it then? 19:51:14 * Sgeo wonders if X-Setup is the tool he remembers from when he was younger 19:55:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:56:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:56:51 13:45:11: 00:45:25: CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME 19:56:51 13:45:19: i thought it wasn't visible in Europe anyway. 19:57:05 (1) i was paraphrasing zzo38 (2) it actually was visible in norway a bit after midnight, modulo clouds 19:57:28 and much of the rest of europe, iirc that wp map 19:58:47 in fact i think there maybe was a short time after about 6 am when i could have seen it 19:59:27 (it was cloudy most of the night, but a very sunny day) 20:00:11 and by night i mean before 6 am more or less, the sun is up earlier than that 20:01:00 elliott: it was visible in northern europe 20:01:32 it's... visible everywhere that has sunlight at some point during the transit? 20:01:41 olsner: you'd think :P 20:02:00 think? I don't think I can think 20:02:15 well technically there is probably somewhere that only got the part of the sun disk where venus wasn't... 20:03:16 I was going to look at it at 4:29 but I forgot to set the alarm ... 20:03:38 What is the calculation for Venus transit being visible? 20:03:44 I wasn't out of bed until noon anyway 20:04:59 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:05:17 bffb is part of the languages which are palindromic turing complete ;D 20:05:24 elliott is such a good listener. 20:05:32 also my l key is getting uppity 20:05:46 Apparent diameter? 20:06:10 *cally 20:06:58 * oerjan thinks there is probably a crumb under it 20:07:16 why not just bfb? 20:07:33 should I stop sending messages throught my bot? 20:07:45 WHO SAID THAT 20:07:51 because brainfuck is usually bf? 20:07:57 oerjan: I 20:08:08 -!- elliott has joined. 20:08:28 i think nortti is a bot anyway, same last 3 letters in finish 20:08:31 *finnish 20:08:49 oerjan: I didn't notice that 20:09:16 and no. I am not a bot 20:09:24 i am 20:09:27 you _would_ say that, wouldn't you. 20:09:53 mroman: I'm saying bfb vs bffb.. both are palindromes 20:10:01 ok. 20:10:07 yeah, elliott is just clever enough to switch the letters around a bit 20:10:19 mroman: so about bffb 20:10:20 elliott: also read logs 20:10:25 [-] is not a palindrome 20:10:26 neither is [>] 20:10:29 so wtf is your example abou 20:10:29 t 20:11:28 obviously visually mirrored palindromes should count in some way 20:11:38 [-] isn't a palindrome? 20:11:55 It's a "mirror palindrome" 20:12:01 Which is even better than the regular kind. 20:12:13 fungot: Maybe you should call yourself "fungotti"? 20:12:15 fizzie: what have i done wrong here?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord) and 600 bytes fnord i think. 20:13:17 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BFFB&action=historysubmit&diff=32714&oldid=32712 <- there. happy ;)? 20:13:29 sadly http://paste.lisp.org/display/fnord does not exist 20:13:33 I read that as fizzie wanting help with "600 bytes fnord" of lisp code 20:14:05 elliott: You should read/see _Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead_! 20:16:53 olsner, 600 bytes*fnord. 20:17:13 irssi's alias system is pretty nice. I can just type /obmsg channel text instead of /msg -freenode oonbotti #sendmsg channel text 20:17:13 (bytes*fnord is the integral of bytes over fnord.() 20:18:00 fungot: are you a bot? 20:18:01 nortti: fnord. fnord että fnord se mulle moi vai vihaako se mua. lol.) 20:18:10 :P 20:18:41 ^help 20:18:42 how clever to answer in the secret finnish code 20:18:42 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 20:18:52 is fungot in finnish mode now? 20:18:53 olsner: that explains it 20:19:01 indeed it does 20:19:05 ^style help 20:19:06 Not found. 20:19:11 ^style finnish 20:19:12 Not found. 20:19:18 ^style Finnish 20:19:19 Not found. 20:19:27 ^style 20:19:28 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 20:19:36 ^style ff7 20:19:37 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 20:20:00 fungot: what do you have to say? 20:20:01 nortti: magic change! we must set a trap... heh, heh... steel! get out. you haven't done anything. 20:20:02 fungot: is that the one which the sword alone cannot stop? 20:20:03 oerjan: the one laughing last! everyone is here...? what if she meant. i don't care what the shinra train? what are you!! 20:20:05 fungot fantasy 20:20:06 olsner: we know you're here!? i tell you all the workings of the cetra to leave the rest to ol' cid! we can use a tent and/ or select *save*. 20:20:25 ^style irc* 20:20:26 Not found. 20:20:29 ^style irc 20:20:30 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 20:20:40 I think the star was there to indicate the currently selected style 20:20:55 fungot: what do you find in the logs? 20:20:56 nortti: if you really need to go to 20:20:57 olsner is getting pretty good with that thar thinking 20:21:24 oerjan: I think I can pretend to think 20:21:41 olsner: pretend to think 20:21:53 Does it please you to think you can pretend to think? 20:22:12 ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:22:13 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:22:17 nortti: I think you something something fungot 20:22:18 olsner: not /forum, apparently! 20:22:44 not eliza 20:23:15 but actually thinking about it having eliza/doctor bot would be fun 20:23:24 not that fun 20:23:36 at least not *that* fun 20:25:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:27:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:30:52 #quit 20:30:53 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 20:34:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: wading | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:34:30 -!- jix has joined. 20:41:17 -!- oonbotti has joined. 20:41:29 now with eliza 20:42:07 #eliza hello 20:42:08 Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today. 20:42:22 #eliza Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today. 20:42:22 Hello, how are you feeling today? 20:42:34 #eliza Hello, how are you feeling today? 20:42:35 Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today. 20:42:47 $ WORDS 20:42:51 you removed that? 20:42:55 oh well 20:43:10 Vorpal: new commandchar is \ 20:43:13 nortti, what language is the bot itself written in? 20:43:20 Vorpal: python 20:43:41 hm I should use ¥ as a command char if I write a bot 20:43:56 since I keep hitting that instead of $ on this keyboard 20:44:11 so altgr-6 rather than altgr-4 20:44:16 python? blub blub 20:44:22 ? 20:44:39 * oerjan suggests the command prefix "hi" 20:44:59 :) 20:45:02 hm didn't someone write an implementation of some language in apache rewrites and it was faster than the reference implementation in python? 20:45:12 I forgot who did it and what language it was about 20:45:16 which would result in us wading in hi, appropriately enough 20:45:21 or topically enough? 20:45:49 -!- Vorpal has set topic: wading in hi | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:45:55 my bot consists of 4 files: ircbot.py, botcmd.py, sforth.py and eliza.py 20:45:55 Vorpal: yeah, I did one of thue... but IIRC they were approximately the same speed in the end 20:46:13 olsner, oh, where did the "faster" bit come from then? 20:46:42 well, I just don't recall at all what the exact result was, if I said faster it should've been faster or I'd have been lying 20:46:53 hm 20:47:16 #quit 20:47:16 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 20:48:57 -!- oonbotti has joined. 20:49:09 -!- jix has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:49:22 oonbotti: here again? 20:49:22 Please consider whether you can answer your own question. 20:49:27 -!- jix has joined. 20:49:36 -!- Zuu has left. 20:49:45 eliza is boring 20:50:09 \ WORDS 20:50:09 : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R> 20:50:27 Vorpal: get me better AI with pytho implementation 20:50:31 Hmm 20:50:34 eh 20:50:38 Is Clojure often used in a work environment? 20:50:44 nortti, how do you define something like a loop using those words? 20:50:49 I'm completely lost 20:50:53 If so, that means I could learn an actually-decent job-relevant language 20:50:54 Sgeo: it is in a Clojure work environment 20:51:01 Vorpal: I don't. it usn't nearly complete 20:51:09 right 20:51:16 But I don't want to learn Java 20:51:21 any and all languages should be job-relevant, for the kind of job you want to be having 20:51:24 Although I know the basics of classes and interfaces 20:51:28 (except python and ant) 20:51:36 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:52:32 Vorpal: only differences from yesterday are addition of 2DUP and ROT and implemeting MOD in forth 20:52:42 Vorpal: hmm, I don't seem to have put the "benchmark" results in writing anywhere on like my blog either 20:53:02 -!- zzo38 has left. 20:53:58 nortti, I think you need HERE, POSTPONE, DOES>, IMMEDIATE right? 20:54:13 err and something that ends up in a JMP I guess 20:54:21 olsner, hm 20:54:39 olsner, speaking of ant, what about maven? 20:54:46 I have heard of it, never used it 20:54:56 when I used java I mostly only used eclipse 20:54:56 Vorpal: like ant, but with more xml, I think 20:55:03 and let that do whatever the hell it wants 20:55:13 olsner, does eclipse use ant? 20:55:50 I think eclipse can if you want to (otoh, why on earth would anyone?), but eclipse mostly does everything its own way 20:55:57 hm in the project I have here it seems to be invoking android SDK tools rather, so I guess that is nothing like the standard build setup 20:56:17 oh well, I don't have any non-android projects handy 20:56:50 (and why would I use eclipse if I wasn't developing for android? NetBeans crashes far less often!) 20:57:29 olsner, btw it is amusing but eclipse on windows is far less stable than on linux 20:57:50 you could e.g. use vim... the android tools kind of push you into using ant for all Java parts of the build though 20:57:53 at least when working on android projects 20:58:09 eh I need a GUI layout designing tool :P 20:58:15 the netbeans support for android lacks that 20:58:27 so me 20:58:28 meh* 20:58:54 you can write the layouts in XML too 20:59:04 using $EDITOR 20:59:07 olsner, yes but that would be much more painful 20:59:11 it would involve writing XML 20:59:14 true 21:00:18 eclipse on windows just like to randomly bug out in strange ways... Usually restarting it helps. Things like showing incorrect build errors in the list but not in the file (or vice versa) and no at all errors in that file after restarting eclipse. 21:00:35 or just null pointer exception in eclipse itself 21:01:05 olsner, anyway, so far I will take a crashing eclipse over writing XML manually 21:01:26 but I wonder what working with the NDK will be like. 21:01:28 if I need it 21:01:35 I hope not, it seems painful to setup 21:02:13 it was possible to get it working magically with eclipse's CDT, but unfortunately I have no memory of how difficult it was to get working in the first place 21:02:38 CDT? 21:02:42 you can even do on-device debugging with that stuff ... once you get it working :) 21:02:43 oh the C environment 21:02:44 right 21:03:05 olsner, you should have written a guide for yourself. I always do that when I'm doing messy embedded stuff 21:03:25 like getting the environment for developing native code for RCX setup 21:03:44 that was a PAIN, had to compile old native gcc and use it to compile old cross compiler gcc 21:03:48 Why does Freenode's webchat have a captcha? 21:03:48 and lots of patches 21:03:54 Any bot could just connect directly 21:04:01 (the target I needed was dropped in GCC 4) 21:04:03 yay. I got my c compiler to parse throught itself 21:04:16 well, I decided it wasn't *really* sufficiently nice to be worth doing again anyway, I'll just continue that project using editor and terminal 21:04:17 nortti, you wrote your own C compiler? 21:04:18 Vorpal: what target did you need? 21:04:29 nortti, trying to remember, h8300-coff iirc 21:04:33 or something weird like that 21:04:33 Sgeo: csrf, presumably 21:04:39 nortti, the issue was the coff bit 21:04:39 or maybe not. 21:04:40 who knows. 21:04:55 nortti, so old binutils too iirc 21:04:56 Vorpal: yes. I am aiming for under 64kB binary size when ran on elks 21:04:59 and the eclipse stuff mostly set up the android-like build system in such a way that you can build it outside eclipse 21:05:07 nortti, oh so not your own parser :P 21:05:20 or hm? 21:05:32 Vorpal: I also wrote my own parser 21:05:33 the issue with writing a C compiler is the bloody parser 21:05:40 okay, now I'm impressed 21:05:56 hmm, or maybe I just recreated the android project files from scratch on my other computer... it wasn't a terribly complicated project, so that would've worked too 21:06:12 Vorpal: well it chockes on K&R style function definitions 21:06:24 well, I decided it wasn't *really* sufficiently nice to be worth doing again anyway, I'll just continue that project using editor and terminal <-- well I need the thing to work on linux and windows. I can't work exclusively on linux. So that would make the NDK even more painful I bet 21:07:19 doing just java development is easy enough though 21:07:46 android on windows is just like android on linux, but you add cygwin 21:08:04 nortti, I assume you target C11? 21:08:08 or C99 at least 21:08:13 (and pain, of course, but that's what happens when you develop on windows) 21:08:13 so who would need K&R 21:08:27 Vorpal: I tried to use yacc and lex but after yacc threw errors on even example code I said fuck it and wrote my own on C. my compiler only has parser currently so it isn't really that usefull. and no. I target c90 21:08:28 olsner: Writing C for Android is also pain, so. 21:08:36 olsner, well it is not me as such working on windows, I'm not the only one working on this project 21:08:41 anyway I doubt we will need the NDK 21:08:46 C for Android is not bad 21:08:52 but don't expect it to be a POSIX system 21:09:02 I've heard that bionic libc is bad 21:09:03 Or an ISO C system. 21:09:12 how does it deviate from ISO C? 21:09:16 indeed, all we might potentially need is C for heavy number crunching 21:09:31 it is kind of real time, and would involve threading too so hm 21:09:33 heavy number crunching on Android 21:09:33 kmc: libc is bit broken 21:09:46 olsner, I'm doing indoor positioning using WLAN. 21:09:53 olsner, no way around it 21:10:20 just do it in the cloud 21:10:42 kmc: libm, wchar_t... 21:11:31 Vorpal: I am aiming to replace bcc after I found out it is too big to run on ELKS 21:11:42 nortti, ELKS being? 21:11:53 olsner, 1) lag (yes really, we tested this! On a moving user, the lag from the round trip is noticeable) 2) connection issues would kill it (you might not be connected to the WLAN in question, you could use mobile data) 21:12:10 and mobile coverage might be poor in some areas where this could be used 21:12:14 Vorpal: Embeddable Linux Kernel Subser (basicaly old linux kernel on intel 8086) 21:12:19 *Subset 21:12:23 heh 21:12:35 * olsner goes back to finding that hello world in brainfuck I used to benchmark that brainfuck in thue interpreter as interpreted by the two thue implementations 21:12:41 nortti, what is it usually compiled with? 21:12:53 Vorpal: bcc 21:12:55 ah yes, the lack of useful wchar_t is annoying 21:12:59 even though wchar_t is broken on principle 21:13:02 nortti, then how can it be too large? 21:13:05 i think that's fixed in latest NDK 21:13:24 kmc, people uses wchar_t? 21:13:24 what 21:13:25 Just because it's a largely *bad* interface does not excuse them for not supporting it. 21:13:39 Vorpal: you can't build anything on ELKS host but bcc has ELKS target 21:13:42 Vorpal: Used extensively in Win32, actually. 21:13:43 kmc, btw, what about that new fancy renderscript thing I saw in the SDK docs... 21:13:48 I haven't tried it yet 21:13:59 nortti, ah 21:14:07 Vorpal: Because the only UTF Microsoft supports is UTF-16. 21:14:20 pikhq_, but how does it handle chars that need surrogate pairs? 21:14:25 And wchar_t on Win32 is 16 bit. 21:14:29 Poorly. 21:14:31 iirc wchar_t is fixed size? 21:14:37 despite all your complaining, the libc and C on Android is overall among the most sane you can find on a mobile platform 21:14:53 pikhq_, anything less than UCS4 and you need to handle variable size chars! 21:15:05 Either programs simply don't make the assumption that wchar_t is actually fixed with, or it's actually UCS-2. 21:15:23 olsner, the java environment on Android isn't that bad. Btw what about C# on Windows Phone? 21:15:27 olsner: Yes, but the only alternatives in use are glibc and uclibc. 21:15:39 C# in general isn't all that bad, about as bad/good as Java IMO 21:15:46 olsner: This is like saying "for all your complaining, getting hit in the nuts is much less bad than getting shot in the head." 21:15:53 olsner: well it is pretty good for mobile platform but not stardard compliant. It is based on old BSD code 21:16:03 Vorpal: Also, anything *in general* you need to handle variable size chars. 21:16:05 Vorpal, C# has LINQ 21:16:10 That alone makes it better than Java 21:16:14 22:13 Just because it's a largely *bad* interface does not excuse them for not supporting it. 21:16:15 doesn't it? 21:16:15 Sgeo, you don't have to use LINQ 21:16:20 oh right, you like that? huh 21:16:26 it's not like wchar_t is very common 21:16:32 It's a touch of functional programming 21:16:38 well sure 21:16:43 The more egregious omissions are in POSIX. 21:16:55 Such as largely broken pthreads. 21:17:13 pikhq_, hm but there are native Linux programs below. I seen them from the adb shell prompt 21:17:20 so how could they get away with that 21:17:20 Vorpal: there's nothing wrong with linq 21:17:28 Vorpal: They wrote their own userspace. 21:17:47 Which also sucks. 21:18:02 elliott, fair enough, I only really used it to wrap SQL, and for that it is often just an annoying broken abstraction (sure /when/ it works it is nice, but often it doesn't do what I want) 21:18:08 also does anyone know whose idea was to make android toolbox so horrible 21:18:25 pikhq_, heh, I thought it was busybox 21:18:27 oh well 21:18:36 Vorpal: Nope, they have a no-GPL-in-userspace policy. 21:18:44 ah I see 21:18:56 Vorpal: they created their own broken clone of busybox called android toolbox 21:19:13 well that explains why some of the commands seem unusually limited in terms of flags 21:19:20 even more some than in busybox 21:19:23 so* 21:20:09 I hope that they would eventualy replace that with toybox 21:20:15 btw, does anyone actually use Windows Phone? 21:20:27 nortti, toybox? 21:20:36 what an utterly ungooglable name 21:20:51 Vorpal: Rob Landley's new project. google linux toybox 21:20:58 Vorpal: I've seen one person with a windows phone phone 21:21:00 hm 21:21:11 hm 21:21:35 olsner, same actually. And that guy was evaluating the user experience on different mobile operating systems 21:21:41 so that doesn't really count 21:21:57 nortti: FSVO new. 21:22:09 (Values equal to 2006.) 21:22:17 FSVO? 21:22:24 nortti, "September 7, 2006 - Project launched, first commit to mercurial archive." 21:22:29 I guess elliott means that 21:22:30 http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fsvo 21:22:47 oh he asked what it meant: For some values of 21:22:49 nortti, ^ 21:23:45 elliott: well I usually refer to busybox as Landley's old project and to toybox as Landley's new project 21:23:48 hm what is GCC C11 support like I wonder 21:26:37 Vorpal: I use toybox commands in place of busybox commands when I can (basicaly everything that is compiled with default config except df (no -h), tail (no -number that tazpkg needs), head (look at tail) and ls (no -h, no color coding)) 21:28:29 nortti, why? 21:28:36 what do you have against busybox? 21:29:12 also I use a bloated GNU userland :P (I love my ls & grep --color=auto ;) 21:29:35 And 24k /bin/true. 21:29:50 Vorpal: because I can 21:29:55 pikhq_: How will my 3TB hard disk cope? D-8 21:30:07 nortti, right, but is there any advantage to toybox compared to bb? 21:30:23 $ du -bsh /bin/true 21:30:23 35K/bin/true 21:30:25 pikhq_, You are wrong 21:30:29 Vorpal: smaller, cleaner aproach, BSD style license 21:30:31 it is 35K 21:30:42 Gregor: I'm sorry, that has no business being larger than the smallest possible binary. 21:30:55 Gregor: Like, really, int main(){return 0;} 21:31:07 i remember when i cared about the size of the true binary 21:31:09 When you make *that* that large... 21:31:10 ha 21:31:12 ha ha ha 21:31:13 me 21:31:16 past me, I mean 21:31:29 argh, it's broken 21:31:30 /bin/true --help 21:31:33 elliott, unless you are doing embedded development there really isn't much of a reason to care 21:31:34 pikhq_: Dude, I want true --help in Swahili. 21:31:40 It's really a statement of how much *friggin' terrible code* there is out there. 21:31:41 or maybe I've forgotten the magic incantation to make it go 21:32:03 olsner, what is broken? 21:32:12 the rewrite stuff 21:32:16 ouch 21:32:28 my true is 0kB 21:32:49 afaict it's not actually doing almost anything of the interpretation that it should be doing 21:34:06 my /bin/true is 7 bytes 21:34:43 nortti, the disk block size being what? 21:34:59 Vorpal: I used ls -lh 21:35:14 nortti, yes but on a normal file system it will still take 4 KB 21:35:15 "exit 0"? 21:35:16 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 21:35:16 Vorpal: but the python thing is still running after 15 minutes 21:35:23 olsner, heh 21:35:33 olsner, what program where you running in it? 21:35:49 Vorpal: du -ach says both are 0 bytes 21:36:10 -!- jix has joined. 21:36:15 python > thue > brainfuck > hello world 21:37:00 Vorpal: my ~/bin/true was generated with touch ~/bin/true; chmod 755 ~/bin/true and my /bin/true is symbolic link 21:37:35 nortti, okay, and what? 21:37:58 vs mod_rewrite-thue > brainfuck > hello world ... which if you think about it is not entirely fair because the thue program is actually compiled into mod_rewrite rules rather than being interpreted 21:38:06 Vorpal: why did you say what? 21:38:10 olsner, heh 21:38:18 nortti, what is your point? 21:38:53 Vorpal: that my true really uses only the disk space of i-node 21:39:18 hmm, come to think of it the thue to mod_rewrite compiler could be made self-hosting quite easily 21:39:30 why? 21:39:49 self hosting thue... do want 21:39:50 nortti, but the symlink must point somewhere 21:40:07 nortti, and that file must take more than an inode 21:40:14 or be useless 21:40:20 nortti: well, the compiler is a fairly simple set of string rewrite rules, could be written in anything 21:40:20 Vorpal: yes. ths 21:40:26 nortti, hm? 21:40:28 ... but it's currently written in sed for convenience 21:40:54 -s+at is true for /bin/true but not for ~/bin/true which is just empty file 21:41:13 linux will run an empty file? 21:41:14 really? 21:41:28 Vorpal: yes. It is treated as shell script 21:41:28 well that is strange 21:41:50 nortti, well then, the memory overhead is much worse than with a real true. You load the entire sh! 21:41:54 shame on you 21:41:58 actually old unixes used empty file as /bin/true 21:42:06 THINK OF THE RAM! 21:42:15 Vorpal: yes but my executable is 0b :P 21:42:29 nortti, but that doesn't matter. Disks are WAY larger than the RAM 21:42:33 usually at least 21:42:57 sure .text and .rodata are shared, but a shell is going to have a lot of .data and .bss too 21:43:10 Vorpal: my sh is busybox, my /bin/true is busybox. I can't see how it would load more to memory 21:43:16 Vorpal: Correction, a *GNU* shell is going to have a lot of .data and .bss too. :) 21:43:57 pikhq_, my /bin/sh is dash iirc 21:44:04 yeah 21:44:05 [25] .data PROGBITS 0000000000618300 00018300 00000200 0 WA 0 0 32 21:44:15 that is MUCH more than a simple /bin/true would have 21:44:21 (it would have zero) 21:44:26 [26] .bss NOBITS 0000000000618500 00018500 00002bd0 0 WA 0 0 32 21:44:36 A glibc-linked /bin/true pulls in rather a lot more. 21:44:50 pikhq_, indeed, but why would it need to be that 21:45:22 1559742 18024 19184 1596950 185e16 /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc-2.13.so 21:45:52 All that gets mapped in if you dynamic link a program... 21:45:58 I'm starting to wonder if Clojure might be a sufficiently good language for me to be happy, that could also be directly career relevant 21:46:16 anyway, the point is moot on a non-embedded system. You have more than enough RAM and disk space usually. This system I'm typing on is a laptop with 2 GB RAM and 250 GB disk. And I'm not worried. Even less so on my desktop with a total of 4 TB disk iirc (this is split by dual booting and RAID 1 though, so 1 TB in practise for linux) and 16 GB RAM 21:46:47 actually more than 4 TB, I forgot my SSD 21:46:58 ok. now I use toybox true which loads 83kB toybox to memory instead of 540kB busybox 21:47:01 And cache? 21:47:09 pikhq_, on my desktop or laptop? 21:47:12 Either. 21:47:20 cache size: 3072 KB 21:47:24 L1? 21:47:25 pikhq_, laptop is a Core 2 Duo 21:47:30 so the cache size is silly 21:47:36 that is L2 21:48:09 pikhq_, anyway L1 doesn't really matter here, /bin/true is not going to run long enough for it to be useful. L1 is useful for tight loops! 21:48:15 /bin/true doesn't loop 21:48:27 Anyways, this is all serving more as a *proxy* for something much more relevant. 21:48:35 Namely, code. 21:48:42 pikhq_, and I can't check on my desktop (Core i7 Sandy Bridge) since it is booted to windows atm 21:48:51 To get a large /bin/true like that the *code* is large and hard to understand, needlessly. 21:49:04 now that is a much more relevant point 21:50:05 in which case a simple #include \n int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } makes most sense 21:50:23 Yup. 21:50:23 unless POSIX says /bin/true should return 0, in which case you can drop that include 21:50:48 I wrote my own true: main(){return 0;} 21:50:55 Vorpal: return 0 is guaranteed to work like return EXIT_SUCCESS IIRC. 21:51:04 elliott, ah, perhaps 21:51:05 (But return 1 is not guaranteed to work like return EXIT_FAILURE.) 21:51:09 right 21:51:14 it compiles to 348B binary using otcc 21:51:20 nortti, didn't you use a symlink before? 21:51:28 you changed your mind? 21:51:36 also which linker did you use? 21:51:44 http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c This is not as bad as a lot of *other* things in coreutils, but still a bit much. 21:51:49 * elliott thinks it's perfectly reasonable for true to support help, fwiw. 21:52:03 Why be inconsistent, UI-wise, just because a program's main purpose is trivial? 21:52:06 Vorpal: I used otcc. it has builting cpp, codegenerator and linker 21:52:08 atexit (close_stdout); 21:52:11 *WHY* 21:52:12 elliott, :) 21:52:17 *WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT* 21:52:26 i have this notion that most GNU code is terrible 21:52:31 even though the programs are useful and work ok 21:52:31 pikhq_, uh, perhaps they were supporting some old system that was broken? 21:52:53 Vorpal: But has working atexit? 21:53:02 pikhq_: instead of assuming there's no reason and they're just dumb, I'd probably assume there is a good reason and I just don't know it 21:53:02 pikhq_, stranger things have happened 21:53:03 ymmv 21:53:21 i don't always call longjmp, but when i do it's from an atexit handler 21:53:22 check the log for the file maybe 21:53:27 (not that I'm saying GNU code is good in general) 21:53:28 or look up the docs for the function 21:53:49 since it isn't in that file 21:53:57 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:54:13 pikhq_, http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/commit/src/true.c?id=309c1c3e47655f610c3c169bc19de9d4a3fc92a1 21:54:14 Vorpal: althought you might not want to use otccelf (otcc that produces elf files. I used that not otcc) for real purposes because it is IOCCC winner 21:54:17 no idea why yet 21:54:33 nortti, hah 21:54:42 pikhq_: consider true > file 21:54:50 needing to close stdout seems more plausible then 21:54:51 Vorpal: It's from the giant chunk of portability-by-invoking-undefined-behavior-special-cased called gnulib. 21:55:26 nortti, winner which year? 21:55:41 pikhq_, right, but why 21:56:04 does google index the logs of #esoteric? 21:56:11 yes 21:56:15 sux 2 b u 21:56:19 Vorpal: I don't remember 21:57:05 -!- rodgort has joined. 21:57:37 Vorpal: 2001 21:57:37 nortti, didn't you say otcc was the one you wrote?! 21:57:54 or was that a different one? 21:57:56 olsner: why did you ask, out of curiosity 21:57:58 *do 21:57:59 Vorpal: no. I have my own c compiler that is unnamed 21:58:02 ah 21:58:39 Gregor, there? 21:58:58 Vorpal: No. 21:59:01 Gregor, how does your JIT dc from IOCCC work? 21:59:13 Quite well, thank you. 21:59:14 also I can't find the download link 21:59:36 where the hell is the download link from the last IOCCC!? 21:59:36 Vorpal: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2011_richards 21:59:40 There appears to be no documentation for why that function exists at all. 21:59:47 Vorpal: if you can stand otcc's c dialect it otccelf produces very small files 21:59:53 Given that, I am inclined to call it cargo culting. 22:00:17 nortti: If you can stand cat(1)'s assembly dialect it produces very small files. 22:00:20 Also, the function in question depends on functions that need to be special cased for each libc. 22:00:21 nortti, I can only stand using C99 or later 22:00:25 s/assembly/machine code/ 22:00:32 elliott: wanted to find some logs, specifically the one where I say mod_rewrite is faster than python 22:00:39 olsner: !logs 22:00:43 elliott: s/machine code/& embedded in a binary format/ 22:00:44 use rsync + grep 22:00:47 Gregor: yes 22:00:49 Gregor: "dialect" 22:01:00 Hah 22:01:09 " it's faster than python now, by 15%" 22:01:31 implementation of what? 22:01:32 google found http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.04.14 22:01:48 Gregor, gah I don't want to unravel that. How do you do it? Precompile functions and copy them in? 22:02:03 otoh, I think that was with the version that was 10% off the correct answer 22:02:13 Vorpal: My policy remains firm. I'll help you figure it out if you put in a bit of effort, I won't just tell you. 22:02:52 * elliott knows how! 22:02:56 * elliott will also not tell. 22:03:19 Gregor, sec, needs to load the code on a desktop monitor 22:03:39 Gregor: You told me. Does that mean I'm special? 22:03:43 I'm going to go take a shower, so if you're onto something I'll help you then. 22:03:52 elliott: You asked before IOCCC X-D 22:03:56 Gregor, meh I'm likely going to sleep soon 22:03:59 This is true!!! 22:04:00 And hence, before my policy existed. 22:04:02 elliott, can you tell me? 22:04:04 * elliott early & special 22:04:38 ergh 22:04:41 too annoying 22:04:47 Vorpal: just devote a bit of effort to it 22:04:52 elliott, har har 22:04:52 it's not that hard to figure out some of it 22:04:59 i don't understand this laugh 22:04:59 elliott, I'm half asleep 22:05:07 so do it tomorrow :P 22:05:22 doubt I will remember 22:05:32 i'll remind you 22:05:39 or rather lambdabot will 22:06:23 also I will be busy then 22:06:36 or I could just grep the logs 22:06:40 for when Gregor told you 22:06:48 elliott, unless that was outside this channel? 22:06:55 it was 22:06:59 ouch 22:07:13 elliott, so why not just tell me. You are a nice guy after all. Right? 22:07:23 nice enough to not ruin a puzzle for you, yes 22:08:30 well I'm going to try to build Gregor's program under Windows. Using MSVC 2010! 22:08:38 it should be portable right? 22:08:52 might work 22:08:58 not sure about alloca though 22:09:45 well, does it require alloca or was that an optional feature? 22:10:12 Gregor: it doesn't compile with bcc ;( 22:10:21 or otccelf 22:10:47 nortti, tried the various flags? 22:11:01 olsner, it requires it 22:11:28 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:12:22 Vorpal: yes. it dies on either missing mmap.h or MAP_PRIVATE and MAP_ANON 22:12:40 nortti, -DNM irc 22:12:41 iirc* 22:12:47 read the code to figure out the defines 22:12:54 elliott: just got -6 against death_to_defence with a defence program :) 22:12:59 and am now furiously constant tweaking 22:13:09 looks like defence may be back on after all 22:13:13 \o/ 22:13:14 | 22:13:14 myndzi: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 22:13:14 /| 22:13:18 ais523: did you see quintopia updated spelevator? 22:13:31 I knew he was doing it, I didn't see the final update 22:13:34 Vorpal: It results in missing symbols 22:13:38 it now gets 50 points or something 22:13:47 which is good, but not leaderboard-topping good 22:13:51 right 22:13:55 quintopia: what sort of updates did you apply? 22:14:09 ais523: how does the defence program work? 22:14:33 I'll publish it all at once 22:14:43 but it has some similarities to shudder programs 22:14:49 and other similarities to lock programs 22:15:03 ais523: I was just asking for the strategy info, not the code :p 22:15:07 yep 22:15:26 it's basically formed of periods of shuddering and periods of clearing 22:15:40 and runs out of time on long tapes, and has a lot of potential for constant tweaking 22:17:59 read the code to figure out the defines // or, read the hints file X-D 22:18:20 ais523: it would be nice to have a generic constant-tweaker program 22:18:26 that's a much simpler thing to write than a full evolver 22:18:44 I already have one, what do you think I'm tweaking with? 22:18:54 ah, I assumed you wrote one for the purpose 22:19:00 Vorpal: It should compile with MSVC, but you MAY need to tweak it to include malloc.h, if I recall my Windows alloca properly. 22:19:01 what is its input syntax like? 22:19:16 you put a t after any number in the code, it mutates it 22:19:27 why t? 22:19:37 multiple numbers if you want to optimise multiple things against each other 22:19:44 and I'm guessing "tweak", although I can no longer remember 22:19:50 how fast is it? 22:19:55 (and what hill does it use?) 22:19:59 Gregor, I have a CD with MSVC 6.0 somewhere, should I try it? 22:20:08 not all that fast on defence programs, and it uses any hill you like, I'm running it on EgoBot's current hill 22:20:09 actually I doubt that will run on 64-bit windows 7 22:20:14 although atm it's optimising for points not score 22:20:19 yeah I really don't want to mess up my system 22:20:32 ah, MSVC of the ALL-CAPS MENUS 22:20:39 what? 22:20:41 I don't remember that 22:20:57 it's new 22:21:02 people are raging about it 22:21:06 ais523, 2011? 22:21:09 2012 22:21:10 I saw a screenshot and they looked reasonable 22:21:12 oh 22:21:13 first Reddit, and now Slashdot 22:21:24 ais523, all caps menus? what? 22:21:32 how does that make sense? 22:21:37 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/unqpz/microsoft_insists_you_will_love_our_all_caps/ 22:21:38 Vorpal: I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't work. 22:21:43 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 22:21:45 Gregor, boring 22:22:25 Gregor, that seems terrible... 22:22:30 and not 1 april 22:22:32 wth 22:23:01 We’ve chosen to use uppercase styling in the top menu for two main reasons: 1) to keep Visual Studio consistent with the direction of other Microsoft user experiences 22:23:04 HUH? 22:23:11 where else does microsoft use all caps? 22:23:14 that is terrible 22:23:31 oh it lists some places below 22:23:32 elliott: anyway, the idea's to beat timer clear by, with appropriately tweaked constants, first locking the main loop, /then/ locking the fallback loop 22:23:39 Vorpal: do you agree with the other places? 22:23:52 ais523, I don't really know anything about them 22:23:54 wow, that line would be very zzoish if out of context 22:23:56 they are not softwares I use 22:24:24 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:24:36 Vorpal: do the softwares have codes 22:24:45 elliott, stop being zzo! 22:24:47 ais523: I see 22:24:52 Vorpal: you're the one who said "softwares"! 22:24:55 ais523, it works in the web design of azure portal (the linked item) 22:24:59 elliott, fair enough 22:25:10 ais523, kind of at least. Not terribly nice 22:25:14 * ais523 wonders what will replace Microsoft when they suicide 22:25:20 but not that bad 22:25:21 perhaps they'll survive, who knows 22:25:27 in a windows UI it is just horrible though 22:25:28 windows 8 is going to cause them problems, but they might not be insurmountable 22:25:53 ais523, I think they are going to get stuck supporting windows 7 for ages, like they got stuck with xp 22:25:54 ais523: I'd rather see them do something like Windows 8 than keep releasing the same OS over and over, it's at least more fun to watch 22:26:08 because windows 7 is a reasonably good, if resource hungry windows version 22:26:12 far better than vista 22:26:23 elliott, true 22:26:23 vista was not really that bad as i understand it 22:26:25 elliott: oh, I'm not talking about my preferences to watch 22:26:31 and Vista is my favourite Windows version 22:26:40 elliott, eh I used vista for about half an hour, it was pretty bad 22:26:44 anyway, Windows 8 looks pretty badly executed, but I think there's some good sentiment behind it 22:27:01 that tends to apply to a lot of things Microsoft does 22:27:50 ais523: if Windows 8 ends up being a bad desktop OS, probably the best thing Microsoft can hope for is to give up their desktop OS dominance in turn for the mobile/tablet space 22:27:57 ais523, "That said, we will enable you to customize the casing, and we are exploring options for how to expose that choice." 22:27:58 after all, Windows 8 looks like a pretty good tablet OS 22:28:02 well it seems like a non-issue now to me 22:28:10 everyone can get what they prefer 22:28:15 I reistalled Vista 3 times a row because it fucked up itself 22:28:20 !bfjoust shudderlock http://sprunge.us/hPLe 22:28:23 ais523: what with netbooks and so on, I wouldn't be surprised if they lost that desktop OS grip over a slower period anyway 22:28:34 ​Score for ais523_shudderlock: 43.0 22:28:40 elliott: it doesn't really fit in with the Windows model well, it seems around as third-party-software-hostile as iOS 22:28:51 unapproved third party software, that is 22:28:52 ais523, what is far more scary is that they will force specific fonts, meaning clear type hell 22:28:57 ais523: not really, AFAICT 22:29:14 elliott: have you seen that screenshot of Windows 8's metro home page with the Microsoft apps on the left and everyone else's on the right? 22:29:25 the contrast is ridiculous :) 22:29:36 ais523: that's a far cry from iOS... 22:29:38 I can't stand cleartype. And Segoe UI and Consolas are unreadable without clear type (everything else is unreadable with it though) 22:29:44 everyone promotes their own stuff like that 22:29:47 ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust vs ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust 22:29:48 >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust wins. 22:29:54 BF Joust is saved! 22:30:15 Vorpal: do you like other subpixel antialiasing systems? 22:30:29 as in, is your hatred ClearType in particular or subpixel antialiasing in general? 22:30:32 *hatred of 22:30:34 ais523, the OS X one is somewhat better. 22:30:39 depends on screen DPI though 22:30:57 it can be reasonable on a mobile display since they have like 250 dpi or higher 22:31:08 on a 96 dpi desktop monitor it is painful 22:31:32 but yeah cleartype is far worse than whatever OS X uses. The linux sub pixel hinting is somewhere in between 22:31:45 haha, shudderlock is right next to death_to_defence on the leaderboard 22:31:46 ais523, still I find fully hinted grayscale antialias easiest to read. 22:32:07 sure, font nerds are going to cry, but I prefer not getting headaches 22:32:14 which I /do/ get from cleartype 22:33:39 huh, I have no problem with the subpixel antialias used by Ubuntu by default 22:33:56 I find it terrible 22:33:58 except that it's very hard to get a non-anti-aliased font nowadays for situations where you need one 22:34:06 perhaps it's to do with the screen you're using 22:34:06 not using super high DPI though 22:34:17 I don't think this screen has larger gaps between pixels than it does within pixels 22:34:22 and I make sure to use the screen's native resolution 22:34:26 same 22:34:33 ideally we'd just have high enough DPI screens that antialiasing would be unnecessary 22:34:34 ais523, still is it a netbook or a laptop? 22:34:35 subpixel antialiasing really sucks at non-native resolutions 22:34:39 elliott, indeed! 22:34:43 unfortunately the display tech is not quite there yet 22:34:44 Vorpal: I'm not sure, it feels like a beefed up netbook 22:34:48 designed to run windows 7 22:35:12 ais523, right, netbooks might have higher DPI. This is a 15.4" laptop display. And it is very much a full laptop 22:35:22 oh, it's quite a small screen 22:35:25 so higher DPI indeed 22:35:27 right 22:35:39 that is why it is usable with subpixel hinting 22:35:57 ais523, my desktop monitor is 22" or 23" iirc 22:36:01 The iPhone 4's DPI looks nice. 22:36:16 elliott, iirc it is lower than that of Samsung Galaxy Nexus still? 22:36:18 I suspect it's impossible to see any fringing at a reasonable distance for the human eye on that thing. 22:36:25 which is like 320 dpi iirc 22:36:38 Vorpal: Retina is 326 ppi 22:36:41 hm 22:36:46 about the same then 22:36:51 as close as makes no difference 22:36:54 yeah, but apple's font rendering is better : 22:36:55 :P 22:36:58 used a Samsung Galaxy Nexus, very nice phone 22:36:59 and the iPhone doesn't use hinting, I think 22:37:06 well, almost certain it doesn't 22:37:08 since OS X doesn't 22:37:10 right 22:37:58 elliott, I still prefer full hinting and greyscale antialias to the OS X default font rendering. Though the OS X font rendering is WAY better than cleartype 22:38:06 Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Lone Survivor Added to Humble Indie Bundle V! 22:38:19 i like how they keep adding games to bundles most of which i already have 22:38:21 Lone Survivor? Not sure which one that is 22:38:28 don't think I have that game 22:38:33 which bundle was it from? 22:38:34 guess i'll buy this thing soon 22:38:56 elliott, anyway you can't complain too much, the deal without those is still excellent 22:39:00 bastion is just awesome 22:39:06 best game of 2011 IMO 22:39:14 (of those I played of course) 22:39:50 oh Lone Survivor is that game 22:39:52 right 22:39:54 seen a video of it 22:42:19 ais523: Doesn't "Merfolk" sound like a city in England? 22:42:23 Norfolk, Suffolk, Merfolk. 22:43:04 hm you are right 22:43:28 elliott, actually... Those cities sound like fantasy races! 22:43:30 anybody know where to download android shell sources? 22:43:51 nortti_, I guess the system development site for android 22:43:57 elliott: a little 22:44:05 nortti_, that is source.android.com 22:44:11 seems a reasonable starting place 22:50:05 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:50:36 meanwhile, how is kuskelar_a_clatsop_man doing so well? it doesn't make any sense! 22:51:13 better ask olsner! 22:51:53 hmm, if only I was good at bf joust, so I could name a program something profane 22:52:10 `bfjoustcat kuskelar_a_caltsop_man 22:52:13 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bfjoustcat: not found 22:52:30 !bfjoust 22:52:31 ​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 22:52:44 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man.bfjoust 22:53:00 `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/jousturl 22:53:03 No output. 22:53:15 `run echo 'echo "http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/$1.bfjoust"' >>bin/jousturl 22:53:18 `run chmod +x bin/jousturl 22:53:18 No output. 22:53:21 No output. 22:53:28 `jousturl olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man 22:53:30 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man.bfjoust 22:53:32 ais523: yw 22:54:09 oh I see, it's mostly a shudder, just with added stupidity 22:54:23 (>>.)*3 at the end of the program? seriously? 22:54:29 "ask olsner" 22:55:59 well, yes 22:56:12 I consider it the BF Joust equivalent of trolling, and am wondering if it was evolved 22:57:03 ais523: no, interior_crocodile_alligator was "trolling" (i hate that word) 22:57:13 well, OK 22:57:17 perhaps they both are 22:57:32 well, interior_crocodile_alligator won because it did really stupid things that nobody anticipated because they made no sense 22:59:50 kuskelar is similar 23:00:06 except that some of the things it does not only make no sense, but cannot possibly increase its win chances 23:00:16 because they either do nothing or suicide 23:03:31 ais523: I think, more probably, olsner just has no idea what he's doing 23:03:34 and is winning by luck :) 23:03:55 comex: what are you doing 23:06:18 one might hypothesize that no matter the hill, there will be some program which can win it despite being easily defeatable in afterthought 23:07:13 oerjan: you sound like itidus :) 23:07:16 that seems practically certain to me 23:07:17 basically an extended RPS idea 23:07:29 it's generally believed that there is an algorithm that turns a program into a program that beats that program 23:07:33 (on all tape lengths and polarities) 23:07:51 so "easily defeatable" is a given in some sense 23:08:16 oerjan: actually, I think "win it" has to be as strong as "beat every other program on the hill" in general 23:08:21 not sure though 23:08:46 jesus christ viddler has astonishingly obnoxious ads 23:10:02 Phantom__Hoover: and it's trying to charge 10¢ per ad to skip them 23:10:08 Yep. 23:10:10 which is an astonishingly large amount of money 23:10:11 for one ad 23:10:21 surely ads cost less than 10¢ each on viddler? 23:10:27 per view? 23:10:32 It's genius in its abject lack of intelligence. 23:10:36 elliott: hm when you put it that way, you could also make the opposite hypothesis - that there's some collection of 50 programs such that at least one of them wins against anything else. 23:10:41 ais523: wait, 10 cents /per ad/? 23:10:46 Phantom__Hoover: it's genius in that someone will probably actually pay 23:10:47 Yep. 23:10:47 elliott: yes! 23:10:51 -!- david_werecat has joined. 23:10:59 ais523: hmm 23:11:13 well, there are plenty of people who could afford that, but it's still exorbitant 23:11:22 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:11:27 if you're rich enough, paying 10 cents per ad is cheaper than going to the fuss of blocking them 23:11:45 no, because there's fuss in paying the money too 23:12:00 you have to get an account with the ad payment people 23:12:05 probably /more/ fuss than installing an ad blocker 23:12:19 and probably have to log into it, too 23:12:30 most people let things stay logged in 23:12:37 and if you have your personal details in an autofill thing... 23:12:48 it's true that you'd have to be very rich however :) 23:12:52 yep, but spontaneous logout for one reason or another is quite common 23:12:52 I was about to comment on why Adblock nor Adblock Plus were working on it, but then I realised I have them both turned off on Shamus Young's site. 23:13:27 youtube does ads better, and dailymotion better still 23:13:56 (dailymotion now allows skipping ads with no downside, even if you don't have an ad blocker; this probably works well in that it doesn't really incentivise you to bother to get an ad blocker, so you still see the very start of each ad) 23:14:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:14:18 (youtube has a delay before you can skip a video ad) 23:14:30 ais523: i hate that i live in a world where there is something worse than youtube video ads 23:14:41 they single-handedly drove me to install an ad blocker 23:14:43 I've never really minded YouTube ads? 23:15:07 Phantom__Hoover: seriously? the video ones? 23:15:07 Phantom__Hoover: it really depends on what sort of videos you watch, some genres are much ad-heavier than others 23:15:08 A few seconds at the start of the video... isn't really what I'd call obnoxious. 23:15:13 yes it is 23:15:14 you're awful 23:15:36 Seriously? I've never had a problem with it. 23:15:49 ais523: youtube has ads before videos? since when? 23:16:10 nortti_: as I said, it really depends on what you're looking at 23:16:14 Although when they still did the long ads (rarely) I just muted them and tabbed out so I'm pretty tolerant. 23:16:21 watch, say, ten to twenty featured videos in a row and you'll start seeing them 23:16:27 and yes, I use the mute-and-tab-out method too 23:16:58 ais523: in what kind of videos do you see them? 23:16:59 I never notice because AdBlock. 23:17:05 on tv i watch the ads out of perverse amusement 23:17:10 i mean 23:17:10 nortti_: featured videos, and videos by youtube partners 23:17:12 they're amazing 23:17:18 ais523: more than just that 23:17:20 I'm not sure if the Viddler ads were mutable. 23:17:25 i think 23:17:28 elliott, I won't hear you badmouth TV ads. 23:17:45 Have you ever wanted a cup of tea in the middle of an hour-long BBC slot? 23:17:48 elliott: and the other category is videos which contain audio or video which has a third-party copyright claim 23:18:25 increasingly common nowadays, with the rise of copyright trolls 23:18:59 ais523: I watch videos by youtube partners and I have never seen them. it mat be because I haven't used youtube's official players for over haof a year 23:19:01 Apparently Americans don't get those "blocked from your country on copyright grounds" messages. 23:19:07 Phantom__Hoover: im not badmouthing they're glorious 23:19:09 I refuse to believe that. 23:19:10 it's capitalism at its finest!!! 23:19:24 Phantom__Hoover: We do. 23:19:27 Phantom__Hoover: they do sometimes, but on different content from other videos 23:19:27 elliott, OK but seriously why do the 5-second YouTube ads count as obnoxious? 23:19:30 Just not as often. 23:19:40 as in, "blocked in your country" varies from country to country, obvioulsy 23:19:42 *obviously 23:20:01 I mean... it seems like a decent compromise for me. 23:20:12 Phantom__Hoover: i really cba to talk about it 23:20:37 Better way is don't use the YouTube, if you can host your own video file 23:20:45 hmm, I should block ads in more places, I think it's vaguely immoral to support an inviable economic model 23:20:47 host it on gopher 23:20:53 Also what TV ads are you talking about, I'm desensitised to the because I'm too normal 23:20:57 youtube-dl for winnitude. 23:21:12 ais523, shhhh, if they think it'll work don't dissuade them. 23:22:06 kmc: The protocol is not relevant, it can be gopher, HTTP, FTP, or something else; I am just saying host it yourself and convert it yourself, to Theora or whatever 23:22:57 zzo38: people don't really use Theora nowadays, WebM was open-sourced and open-patented and is better 23:23:21 I still prefer Theora 23:23:28 pikhq_: that is how I watch my youtube videos nowadays. before I used mactubes 23:23:32 But you could use WebM f you want, too 23:23:48 BTW, Theora is a video codec, not a container format 23:23:49 david_werecat: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 23:24:06 david_werecat: Yes I know. The container format would be Ogg 23:24:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:24:52 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 23:25:31 Wikipedia also uses Theora 23:25:36 I don't think there's *any* advantage to using Theora over VP8. 23:26:58 Does VP8 support Ogg container? 23:27:26 The issue is more one of "does Ogg support VP8"... 23:27:46 Yes. But, the Ogg container can contain any data, I suppose 23:28:26 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:30:15 Also, any reason to prefer Ogg over MKV? 23:30:35 Once I tried to invent Micro-Ogg which is like Ogg but the block headings are smaller and some features are removed 23:30:49 Aside from "holy mother of fuck MKV is complicated", that is. 23:31:02 pikhq_: Yes that is the reason. 23:31:16 (if it's a feature that can go in a container format, MKV has it) 23:31:31 zzo38: The subset of MKV that WebM videos can have isn't that bad, though. 23:33:17 I prefer Micro-Ogg 23:35:21 I have worked on writing a video disc format, using headerless Theora to encode videos (PAL systems support Dirac as well as Theora), using the Micro-Ogg container for the video/audio data, and other simple headerless binary formats for some of the other data (such as track names and so on) 23:38:23 So if you want VP8, you should still use Ogg or Micro-Ogg 23:44:31 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:48:02 Why is not allowed to view TOPIC messages if not on that channel? 23:48:15 secret 23:55:02 huh 23:55:10 what bad luck for ais leaving just as i arrive :P 23:55:14 (and me too) 23:55:42 Oops now you will have 13 kinds of bad luck 23:56:22 bad luck breeds more bad luck? 23:56:24 that's bad luck