←2012-06-08 2012-06-09 2012-06-10→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, what sort of systems do you think those companies use? Probably x86-based
00:00:40 <Vorpal> get a grip on reality
00:00:42 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose so
00:01:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, most likely any company printing large volumes are going to send it to a printing house as a PDF btw.
00:02:54 <zzo38> But what if you want PNG?
00:02:56 <Vorpal> nortti_, anyway, all the platforms (apart from MIPS possibly, I don't know enough about the details for it) listed uses IEEE floating point
00:03:10 <Vorpal> you embed it in the PDF?
00:03:17 <Vorpal> or what do you mean?
00:03:25 <zzo38> Can PNG be embedded directly to PDF?
00:03:27 <nortti_> Vorpal: what systems don't?
00:03:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, pretty sure that EPS, PNG, JPEG and JPEG2000 are the formats that can be embedded in PDFs
00:04:07 <Vorpal> nortti_, ?
00:04:11 <nortti_> apart from microcontrollers
00:04:23 <Vorpal> nortti_, what?
00:04:32 <Vorpal> what systems don't what?
00:04:41 <kmc> plenty of systems have no hardware floating point
00:04:46 <kmc> software fpu is probably ieee though
00:04:59 <nortti_> Vorpal: what systems don't use IEEE fp
00:05:02 <Vorpal> kmc, indeed. So you end up with IEEE in any case. Which was my point
00:05:10 <Vorpal> nortti_, no common modern ones
00:05:10 <kmc> ppc is not dead... 2 of the 3 major game consoles use PPC architecture
00:05:12 <Vorpal> that was my point
00:05:22 <Vorpal> kmc, actually Power
00:05:29 <Vorpal> for the PS3
00:05:34 <kmc> ok
00:05:36 <kmc> fair enough then
00:05:37 <Vorpal> which is the same ISA yes
00:05:42 <shachaf> kmc: tty1 is running NetHack, tty2 is runnin Crawl, tty3 is running robotfindskitten
00:05:45 <shachaf> All x86.
00:05:46 <nortti_> kmc: which one isn't?
00:05:46 <Vorpal> kmc, don't remember what xbox or Wii uses
00:05:55 <Vorpal> kmc, xbox might actually use PPC?
00:06:09 <kmc> oh, I forgot that the Wii also does :)
00:06:14 <kmc> never mind, 3 :)
00:06:18 <Vorpal> kmc, right
00:06:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose, you should know the printing resolution as well? Since, TeXnicard produces PNG outputs at the printer's resolution. So hopefully PDF support such things if it is required to use PDF, but it would be better to just send the PNG directly if it is the correct resolution already
00:06:56 <Vorpal> kmc, so 2 of them uses PPC, and one uses Power, which is the same ISA pretty much (except that it is Cell, which means that it is just one out of the many cores that has that ISA)
00:07:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, mhm. Seems silly to not produce vector graphics if you can though
00:07:39 <kmc> shachaf: this is what #haskell actually believes?
00:07:53 <nortti_> ppc is kinda nice ISA. Good thingvppc macs are cheap
00:07:56 <shachaf> kmc: 17:02 <mekeor> shachaf: maybe like this?? class StringLike s where f :: CharLike c => s -> (c,s)
00:08:03 <nortti_> -v+
00:08:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: No, it is using all raster fonts, raster graphics, etc
00:08:24 <kmc> also lol @ telling zzo38 to get a grip on reality
00:08:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, why?
00:08:40 <Vorpal> kmc, you have a point there
00:08:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: They are better if you know the printer's resolution
00:09:26 <Vorpal> kmc, I think I have been pragmatized (does that word exist?) over the last few months. Seen what commercial software development looks like.
00:09:59 <Vorpal> zzo38, why? I don't see why they wouldn't be equally good if both produce the same end result
00:10:01 <zzo38> It uses TFM/GF for fonts, and PBM and PNG for graphics.
00:10:07 <nortti_> Vorpal: should I also start assuming I can use more than 64kB code+64kB data?
00:10:09 <kmc> Vorpal: did you start a new job?
00:10:15 <Vorpal> which they would in situations where vector graphics are good enough
00:10:47 <zzo38> Vorpal: No it won't; raster is better quality *if you know the resolution of the printer*.
00:11:14 <Vorpal> kmc, I did my bachelor thesis with a software development company. Pretty common here in Sweden. Been doing indoor positioning using WLAN.
00:11:23 <kmc> cool
00:11:32 <shachaf> Vorpal is in Sweden?
00:11:41 <Vorpal> shachaf, no. I'm on Mars.
00:11:44 <shachaf> Oh.
00:11:48 <shachaf> Vorpal: Where in Sweden are you?
00:11:56 <Vorpal> shachaf, why?
00:12:02 <shachaf> It's Stockholm, right?
00:12:05 <Vorpal> shachaf, no
00:12:07 <Vorpal> and why?
00:12:15 <shachaf> You should get kmc to visit you!
00:12:30 <zzo38> MSE is not only using vector but also JPEG, which results in poor quality output especially also since the printer resolution is not set correctly either.
00:12:30 <Vorpal> kmc lives in Sweden?
00:12:40 <shachaf> No. He's on Mars.
00:12:43 <Vorpal> ah
00:12:50 <zzo38> And JPEG isn't even a vector format so it has to use raster as well
00:12:59 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway geoip for kmc claims US
00:13:09 <shachaf> kmc: You should get a cloak!
00:13:10 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway why would I live in Stockholm. I hate big cities
00:13:19 <shachaf> You can get them from that one person in that one channel.
00:13:25 <Vorpal> :D
00:13:50 <shachaf> Vorpal: kmc is visiting .fi sometime.
00:13:50 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway why are you interested in where in Sweden I am?
00:14:07 <Vorpal> s/in //
00:14:39 <Vorpal> shachaf, I may tell you if you give me the reason why you want to know
00:14:50 <shachaf> I have no reason for wanting to know.
00:15:09 <shachaf> I've been in Sweden for two non-consecutive days of my life.
00:15:16 <Vorpal> oh well, that is fair enough. About 30 Swedish miles from Stockholm (a Swedish mile is 10 km)
00:15:38 <zzo38> MSE is intended for printing worst quality than official cards. TeXnicard is intended for printing better quality than official cards.
00:15:49 <Vorpal> shachaf, so quite far away
00:16:06 <shachaf> Vorpal: I just said I have no reason for wanting to know! Why are you telling me?
00:16:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, s/worst/worse/
00:16:17 <Vorpal> I think that is what you mean?
00:16:27 <Vorpal> shachaf, because you answered my question
00:16:31 <Vorpal> shachaf, that was a valid answer
00:16:31 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes
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00:32:36 <zzo38> I would like to have the Magic: the Gathering symbols in METAFONT
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00:34:50 <zzo38> kmc: You shoult not get a cloak. You should get a clock!
00:36:01 <quintopia> :C
00:36:10 <quintopia> report.c is so hacky
00:36:21 <Gregor> Muahahahaha
00:36:31 <quintopia> Gregor: halp
00:37:20 <elliott> quintopia: i was going to rewrite report.c
00:37:22 <elliott> if that hels
00:37:23 <elliott> helps
00:37:42 <kmc> trapped in fortune cookie factory
00:38:36 <quintopia> Gregor: can't even tell me what the hell kind of method is being used to store the scores? it is a signed char *, and the part where it gets read into looks like
00:38:45 <quintopia> st = 0;
00:38:45 <quintopia> SF(tmpi, read, -1, (scorepipe[0], &st, sizeof(int)));
00:38:46 <quintopia> scores[row + i] = st;
00:38:50 <Gregor> quintopia: You think I REMEMBER???
00:39:01 <quintopia> Gregor: MAYBE
00:39:05 <Gregor> I would assume one char per score, in some kind of logical order.
00:39:21 <elliott> quintopia: I was going to rewrite it in Haskell.
00:39:21 <quintopia> why would a score be a char
00:39:23 <Gregor> Errr, looks like one INT per score there.
00:39:40 <Gregor> quintopia: Because it's never going to be less than -128 or greater than 127?
00:39:47 <quintopia> oh
00:40:03 <quintopia> elliott: is it easy to do linear algebra in haskell?
00:40:22 <elliott> i think i found a linpack binding
00:42:00 <quintopia> i figured out how to do my scoring with just one dgesv
00:43:02 <quintopia> so, if you rewrite report i can put it in fairly easil
00:43:25 <quintopia> i can go ahead and give you the gearlance i modified to report both program scores which i need to compute my scoring
00:49:13 <Vorpal> huh, I was doing some changes to installed components of windows on this windows 7 system. Strangely enough it didn't want the DVD to add minesweeper. And no it is not an OEM install with everything on the disk. This is installed from a stock DVD with windows 7 on it
00:49:27 <quintopia> elliott: are you serious about rewriting report
00:49:51 <quintopia> elliott: as in you could get it done over the weekend or w/e?
00:49:53 <elliott> quintopia: yes
00:49:55 <elliott> well
00:49:55 <oerjan> geeks will be geeks: "The IceCube collaboration is now discussing the possible addition of a second infill, called PINGU (Phased IceCube Next Generation Upgrade), which would group an additional series of strings in DeepCore and allow IceCube to detect oscillations as low as a few GeV."
00:50:01 <elliott> this was when i was doing lance
00:50:07 <elliott> so
00:50:09 <elliott> maybe i will have a god at it
00:50:17 <elliott> *go
00:50:19 <elliott> but i can't promise anything :P
00:51:04 <quintopia> elliott: should i attempt to hack report.c now or wait to give you a chance to have a go at it
00:51:28 <elliott> feel free to hack at report.c, if you want to
00:51:34 <elliott> I don't want to hold you up
00:51:44 <elliott> I'm usually not very good at doing things
00:51:56 <oerjan> breaking everything is the next logical step
00:53:21 <quintopia> elliott: if i hack report.c and get it running my scoring, would you be able to use that code to add my scoring to your version if you ever decided to do it?
00:53:33 <elliott> quintopia: depends how horrible linpack's c api is :P
00:53:40 <elliott> but yes probably. i might have to ask you about some things
00:54:31 <quintopia> it will probably be nearly as straightforward as report.c already is (read: stupidly ugly)
00:54:54 <quintopia> http://theochem.mercer.edu/clapack/dgesv_example.c if this makes sense to you, then my portion of the code should be no problem
00:56:41 <elliott> it
00:56:42 <elliott> sort of does
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01:08:47 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc linpack uses the opposite row/column order of multidimensional array compared to the normal C way
01:08:52 <Vorpal> just a heads up
01:08:58 <elliott> :(
01:09:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it is because fortran does it that way
01:09:11 <Vorpal> columns first
01:09:17 <Lumpio-> ...what's the "normal C way"
01:09:35 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, row first?
01:09:53 <Lumpio-> Says who
01:11:02 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, well the point is fortran and C interprets foo[2][3] (and the fortran equiv) the opposite ways in how they are laid out in memory
01:11:39 <Vorpal> of course you could consider either way of laying out the data in that array
01:11:48 <Vorpal> it is up to the programmer
01:30:34 <elliott> hey kmc
01:30:36 <elliott> you know c++ right
01:32:17 <Lumpio-> Nobody /knows/ C++
01:32:23 <Lumpio-> Except maybe stroustroup
01:32:32 <Lumpio-> Or however you spell it
01:33:30 <elliott> by knows i mean
01:33:34 <elliott> can write code that a c++ compiler will accept
01:33:35 <elliott> sometimes
01:34:25 <oerjan> sorry, all c++ programs stopped compiling after the venus transit
01:34:48 <oerjan> this is probably for the best
01:36:34 <Vorpal> elliott, oerjan: btw I might end up writing embedded C++ code for a living. How does that sound?
01:36:47 <kmc> i know some c++ yeah
01:36:49 <kmc> why elliott
01:36:51 <kmc> whelliott
01:36:56 <elliott> kmc: if i have an std::vector member in a class
01:37:00 <elliott> and it has its own constructor
01:37:04 <elliott> do i have to initialise it in the constructor
01:37:08 <elliott> or will it just be empty all by itself
01:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: awful
01:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, running on RTOS btw
01:37:49 <Vorpal> (which is actually the name of a specific RTOS!)
01:37:58 <Vorpal> (confusing? yes)
01:38:07 <kmc> elliott: if you do nothing, the ctor for your class will invoke the default ctor for the memer object
01:38:26 <elliott> even if it has its own ctor? ok
01:38:27 <kmc> if you want to invoke a different constructor, you would put it in your ctor's initializer list
01:38:34 <kmc> yes
01:38:41 <elliott> Vorpal: im going to get past vorpal to kill you for writing proprietry softwawerjio
01:38:42 <kmc> if there's no entry for foo in the initializer list, it's like foo()
01:38:45 <elliott> kmc: right
01:38:53 <elliott> i'm not sure this class even uses initialiser lists
01:38:57 <elliott> this codebase is
01:38:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well I would have to do something for a living
01:38:59 <elliott> not
01:39:00 <elliott> very good
01:39:31 <kmc> C++ does take some care to make sure values of object type (as opposed to pointer or reference type) are actually valid objects
01:39:39 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it is not like this is going to be useful for most people if I get the job. It is for mining rigs.
01:39:48 <Vorpal> (Atlas Copco)
01:41:06 <elliott> ugh this codebase uses int so casually
01:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, in place of long or what?
01:41:56 <elliott> in place of something with a defined size, since it's a cross-platform game and this stuff goes into save files and is actually game-relevant and so on
01:41:59 <elliott> ok depending on your definition of relevant
01:42:14 <elliott> if you complete 2 billion or so ziggurats then bad things will happen
01:43:05 <Vorpal> which game is it?
01:43:38 <elliott> crawl light
01:43:41 <Vorpal> ah
01:43:48 <Vorpal> what is a ziggurats?
01:43:52 <Vorpal> err ziggurat
01:44:05 <Vorpal> is that read as zuggu-rat?
01:44:08 <Vorpal> ziggu*
01:44:11 <elliott> it's an actual word :P
01:44:15 <Vorpal> oh?
01:44:21 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat
01:44:28 <Vorpal> hm so it is
01:44:32 <elliott> it's a portal; you pay a bunch of money and then go through 27 levels of very difficult monsters in a confined spcae)
01:44:34 <Vorpal> what a strange word in English
01:44:42 <elliott> it's not english-native
01:44:46 <elliott> s/spcae\)/space/
01:45:03 <elliott> argh why does this editor keep resetting to hard tabs on every file
01:45:24 <Vorpal> I first went like "hey, isn't crawl light a free game?" at that "you pay a bunch of money" before I realised it was in game money
01:45:50 <Vorpal> I would definitely pay in real life to go through a portal though!
01:46:08 <Vorpal> (assuming it teleported me)
01:46:12 <elliott> not to a ziggurat, you wouldn't
01:46:19 <Vorpal> fair enough
01:47:56 <elliott> i could see an mmorpg charging to enter something like that
01:48:25 <Vorpal> you could see the game itself charging to enter it?
01:48:26 <Vorpal> what?
01:48:53 <elliott> what's confusing
01:48:53 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
01:49:03 <elliott> what's confusing
01:49:26 <Vorpal> you could see an mmorpg game charge in in order for it to a portal?
01:49:29 <Vorpal> to enter*
01:49:33 <Sgeo_> I wonder if it would ever offend an employer if I mentioned The Daily WTF
01:49:37 <Sgeo_> As in, due to the language
01:49:44 <Vorpal> oh wait I misread
01:49:45 <Vorpal> right
01:49:49 <Vorpal> lol
01:50:03 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, why not?
01:50:04 <elliott> I mean real-life money
01:50:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I read it as if the game itself charged (ran) into a portal
01:50:07 <Vorpal> XD
01:50:14 <elliott> oh
01:50:21 <elliott> that is
01:50:23 <Vorpal> that was why I was somewhat confused
01:50:24 <elliott> a dumb interpretation :P
01:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is
01:50:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm tired
01:50:50 <elliott> i'm tried
01:51:06 <Vorpal> I'm tyre you are glue. Wait what.
01:51:33 <Vorpal> (I /do/ hope you get that reference)
01:51:52 <elliott> hi
01:52:10 <Vorpal> night
01:52:33 <zzo38> Do you like the computer game called "Potion of Confusing" in MegaZeux?
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01:54:04 <elliott> + if (runes.size() < NUMBER_OF_RUNES_NEEDED)
01:54:08 <elliott> why would you use this and not runes_in_pack
01:54:09 <elliott> gah
01:54:41 <elliott> oh hmm
01:54:47 <elliott> no, still makes no sense
02:05:32 <zzo38> Go into the various doors to find the nice purple keys. You can open the door toward the west if you have enough keys. Hold second one as you hold a pencil. There are some gibbering mouther to the west locked up in the room behind the door. It is good idea if you can save them, please. Also, some of them like the potion of confusing as well, so it would be nice if you can give that to them too.
02:06:22 <zzo38> They also like to speak in confusing way and to eat your blood a bit too so you should learn that too, please. If you have any more potion of confusing remains, then you should quaff a potion of confusing too if you like to do so. Good luck, and goodbye!
02:07:36 <zzo38> You can save at any time, and can create multiple save files; it might be good idea to do so. However, you can always abandon the level you are on, and try it again later (it will restart if you have not completed it). Every time you exit a level (whether you win or lose), your stats are reset, so you cannot use ammunition or anything like that from one level in another one.
02:07:48 <zzo38> Also, this game is public domain, so you are free to do as you wish, please.
02:08:10 <zzo38> Keyboard: I = identify player R = reset S = sound test Z = clear message row
02:17:33 <elliott> hi
02:17:54 <oerjan> elliott: sorry, it's yo today
02:19:05 <zzo38> Do you like this description of this game?
02:19:36 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't recognize that color
02:21:08 <oerjan> that could be because it isn't one
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02:24:04 <MerlynKorr> thanks
02:24:19 <oerjan> `welcome MerlynKorr
02:24:21 <HackEgo> MerlynKorr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:25:18 <MerlynKorr> right on...
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02:30:45 <elliott> does anyone know how you can git blame some removed lines
02:30:51 <elliott> I want to find out which commit removed a function
02:31:33 <shachaf> git log -S?
02:32:57 <elliott> thank's
02:33:18 <elliott> oh
02:33:20 <elliott> nobody actually removed it
02:33:23 <elliott> how convenient
02:35:47 <oerjan> it never was there in the first place?
02:35:55 <oerjan> (dun dun dun)
02:48:20 <elliott> shachaf: How can I selectively revert hunks in my current changes?
02:48:28 <elliott> Like "git commit -p", but instead it undoes them.
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02:55:46 <pikhq_> My Internet is worse than I thought.
02:55:51 <pikhq_> TCP drops.
02:55:54 <pikhq_> UDP doesn't.
02:56:01 <pikhq_> Seriously, you have to *work* to do that.
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03:04:48 <shachaf> elliott: I don't know.
03:04:49 <shachaf> Maybe something involving git-rebase?
03:05:07 <shachaf> There's a SPLITTING COMMITS section in git-rebase(1).
03:05:51 <elliott> But they aren't committed yet.
03:05:58 <shachaf> Oh.
03:06:12 <shachaf> So like git-add -p, then.
03:06:17 <elliott> or git commit -p
03:08:02 <shachaf> Except you're talking about adding, not committing.
03:08:08 <shachaf> Anyway, git-add --interactive?
03:09:04 <shachaf> I'm just, like, lookin' at man pages here, man.
03:09:40 <shachaf> But it looks like git-add --interactive's [r]evert will do what you want.
03:11:48 <elliott> Ah.
03:11:49 <elliott> Thankxxe.
03:15:31 <kmc> pikhq_: i've found many connections where Mosh works, whereas IRC/ssh can't achieve a connection
03:15:49 <kmc> i think the amount of packet loss you need to make TCP completely unusable is < 100%
03:16:52 <shachaf> It only takes 99.999...%!
03:16:55 <shachaf> The Worst Internet Argument.
03:19:06 <kmc> yes
03:19:16 <kmc> you know who else believed 0.99999… = 1?
03:20:38 <pikhq_> kmc: Actually, it's weird: for a second or two I get 100% packet drop, and then my TCP connections are dropped.
03:20:53 <pikhq_> While UDP keeps going.
03:22:34 <shachaf> kmc: Is this a "make other people self-Godwin" trick?
03:25:02 <kmc> pikhq_: ohh
03:25:03 <kmc> odd*
03:25:10 <kmc> i don't have the TCP flow control rules memorized
03:25:17 <kmc> but it should take more than a few seconds to drop a TCP connection
03:30:26 <shachaf> elliott: Is there even a 'b' at the end of that "herb"?
03:30:44 <pikhq_> kmc: I'm suspecting it's broken equipment somewhere on my link.
03:30:55 <pikhq_> kmc: It should take *quite a while* for TCP to drop.
03:31:09 <pikhq_> But it takes a mere fit of stupid in a NAT to drop TCP.
03:33:18 <elliott> shachaf: Yes.
03:36:29 <kmc> yeah
03:36:32 <kmc> did you look at the packets
03:37:20 <shachaf> kmc: I wish strace could do that. :-(
03:37:42 <shachaf> Maybe if you straced User-Mode Linux.
03:40:40 <oerjan> the packets, they do nothing!
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03:43:12 <oerjan> hey urbandictionary, who are you calling sub-human
03:44:23 <elliott> what
03:46:11 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The%20goggles!%20They%20do%20nothing!
03:46:36 <elliott> Attractive Girl: "You're so right, I'll have sex with YOU now instead of that loser."
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04:05:19 <zzo38> With my ideas relating to typeclasses in Ibtlfmm, and local instances, then implicit parameters are the same thing and therefore do not need an extension like GHC's -XImplicitParams. You can simply do: sort :: a. (method cmp :: a -> a -> Bool) => [a] -> [a] So an implicit parameter is the same as a class method.
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04:32:04 <elliott> shachaf: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10956419/why-isnt-every-type-part-of-eq-in-haskell
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06:05:03 * quintopia sucks seeds
06:09:58 <zzo38> I agree with Hawking's "Reality is not a quality you can test with litmus paper."
06:11:35 <zzo38> But I agree with some of Penrose's ideas as well.
06:11:56 <zzo38> But mostly I agree my own ideas instead, based on the mathematics and on what else I read and try to think about for myself
06:16:51 <zzo38> In my opinion the proper theory must not only involve quantum mechanics but also general relativity, and that spacetime must be considered together rather than separated and relative rather than absolute.
06:17:44 <zzo38> I consider my own interpretation: causality-breaking physics.
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06:18:16 <zzo38> Also, the true reality is that of mathematics.
06:18:48 <zzo38> But there are cases in mathematics where more than one answer is possible; for example, a square root of 9 can be positive 3 or negative 3.
06:18:58 <zzo38> So too it may be with the universe.
06:20:26 <zzo38> If the mathematics says one thing that people say is extremely crazy and impossible, but it is mathematically correct, then even if you don't believe it, I must believe it unless the experiment refutes it.
06:20:59 <zzo38> What kind of quantum interpretation did you like?????
06:21:09 -!- Taneb has joined.
06:21:20 <Taneb> Hello
06:21:37 <zzo38> What kind of quantum interpretation did you like?????
06:21:43 <Taneb> Me?
06:21:50 <Taneb> Many-worlds
06:22:22 <zzo38> Taneb: I have uploaded the version of prelude-generalize tell me if you have a documentation I will add it on, if you want to reorder the exports that is OK too
06:22:34 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm working on that
06:22:50 <zzo38> Taneb: Read the log what I wrote what my opinion is of quantum interpretation see if you agree/disagree/partial/neutral.
06:24:09 <Taneb> It seems... compatible with most interpretations of quantum physics
06:26:13 <Taneb> Not really knowing much about quantum mechanics, general relativity, or physics in general
06:27:08 <quintopia> zzo38: do you prefer quantum decoherence or collapse postulate?
06:27:17 <quintopia> s/quantum/macroscopic/
06:28:42 <zzo38> Just see what fits better with experiments, if any.
06:29:56 <quintopia> both equally well
06:30:08 <quintopia> you don't have an opinion?
06:30:33 <Taneb> quintopia, can you explain them to me?
06:30:45 <zzo38> I do not know what "collapse postulate" means, although I know some things about wave function collapse.
06:31:00 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article for "collapse postulate" redirects to "wave function collapse".
06:31:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, it isn't something I have thought of much, although maybe I should
06:33:50 <zzo38> I would think wave function collapse is simply the way to find the subset of the wave function which is considered to be measured.
06:33:57 <quintopia> Taneb: macroscopic decoherence is many-worlds. it just says that the wavefunction never really collapses into a particular subset of decohered states. advantages are: it doesn't involve collapse (acausal, undifferentiable, nonlocal, unexplainable phenomenon that it is) disadvantages are: Born probabilities
06:35:20 <quintopia> Taneb: collapse is the old-fashioned one. it says that the universe abandons a set of decoherent possible states at the point where they become "too large"...instantly and exactly as the Born probabilities would dictate (though it doesnt say why)
06:35:54 <zzo38> So in other words, I am saying that wavefunction collapse is an emergent phenomenon.
06:36:05 <Taneb> What're Born probabilities?
06:37:27 <quintopia> zzo38: by "emergent" do you mean "magical"?
06:38:22 <quintopia> Taneb: the probability that a particular decohered amplitude distribution is the one in which we will find ourselves is equal to the square of the amplitude it contains
06:38:40 <Taneb> Okay
06:39:30 <zzo38> quintopia: No, I mean emergent from the way the fundamental mathematics would be applied.
06:40:21 <quintopia> zzo38: these days "emergent" is tossed around to mean "it just kinda happens when other stuff happens, but i'm not going to speculate on the details"
06:40:40 <quintopia> aka, it is used in the place of an explanation rather than as a part of one
06:42:11 <zzo38> There may be causality loops, and causality breaking, as I have written above. So causality breaking might place restrictions on the mathematics, and well as observation, so what you observe (including consciousness and so on, although this too is emergent) will be what agrees with the observer's state.
06:42:46 <zzo38> Division by zero is not allowed, and this already makes some things emerge in physics, so it can do other things too.
06:43:39 <quintopia> "what you observe will be what agrees with your state" sounds an awful lot like a belief in macroscopic decoherence, while "there may be causality breaking" sounds like a belief in collapse
06:43:50 <quintopia> i think you are confused and should read more on the subject
06:44:45 <zzo38> Yes perhaps I am a bit confused. I have read some books and some Wikipedia too, and I try to work the mathematics on paper and on computer too.
06:49:09 <zzo38> Also my opinion, quantum states which are not part of the current point of view may be entangled with ones that are, for possible entanglement across multiverse. Note that I mean the multiverse that is related; not the Ultimate Multiverse.
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06:54:31 <Taneb> zzo38, I'd be careful or Marvel may sue you.
06:56:25 <zzo38> By Ultimate Multiverse I mean what Brian Greene wrote about where everything that is mathematically correct is mathematically exist as some kind of universe.
06:57:05 <zzo38> (Sometimes it is restricted to computable mathematical formulae, but I disagree with this; it should be everything whether computable or not.)
07:00:14 <zzo38> "Reality" cannot possibly be more than what you define it to be; otherwise it is nothing.
07:01:19 <zzo38> You cannot call something an objective reality in these kind of physics; you just say the mathematics is this and that and so on, and the experiment will be like this and that and so on.
07:02:19 <zzo38> Ambiguity should be OK, as long as it is mathematically meaningful.
07:04:10 <zzo38> If a mathematics tell you the probability of something is greater than 1, then that would mean is more likely than being definitely, and that seems impossible, but if mathematics tell you the answer is such a thing, how do you know that there is no such things as more likely than being definitely?
07:19:23 <zzo38> When discussing all these things about interpretation of physics, they cannot always involve science and sometimes they involve philosophy instead, but they also involve mathematics, too.
07:20:55 <Lumpio-> If mathematics tells you that the probability of something is more than 1, you should check your calculations...
07:21:23 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Well, yes, one possibility is that you have miscalculated, so you should check.
07:21:47 <quintopia> zzo38: that is the only possibility in that case
07:21:53 <quintopia> zzo38: you have some strange ideas
07:22:13 <zzo38> Yes I know my ideas are strange
07:24:37 <zzo38> But if a probability really is greater than 1, you still use the same rules of probability as otherwise, so if probability of one thing is 2 and another independent thing is 1/2 you can multiply for the probablility of both happening must be 1 so it must happen for sure. I do not know if this is possible but if it is possible then I would think it must work like this
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07:26:42 <quintopia> zzo38: probabilities must be in (0,1) in the real world. just like infinity doesn't actually exist in the real world.
07:28:23 <zzo38> quintopia: O, now you are talking about the "real world" again; but reality is not a quality that can be measured by litmus paper.
07:33:56 <zzo38> Even if you do not agree that a probability can be 2 (I am not quite sure either), would you agree that if it is possible, then you would still multiply them like I described?
07:34:43 <zzo38> Maybe there is a mathematical proof that it is impossible but I don't know of any.
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07:43:21 <Taneb> Hello
07:44:10 <Lumpio-> A probability greater than 1 is a bit silly
07:44:20 <Lumpio-> If the same rules still apply, you can make anything as probable as you want
07:44:33 <Lumpio-> Just repeatedly do the thing that has a probability >1
07:44:40 <Lumpio-> And then the improbable thing
07:44:46 <Lumpio-> Like 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*0.00001
07:45:01 <Lumpio-> (Needs more 2^n but you get the point)
07:45:45 <zzo38> To do that there needs to be seven independent events having a probability of 2
07:46:19 <zzo38> I can see what you are saying, though.
07:46:29 <zzo38> But still I am unsure, due to a few reasons.
07:48:39 <zzo38> In future once result is known, the probability from that point changes. It may lead to paradoxes such as the probability becoming less once the first event is known to occur, but this does not seem to be truly a mathematical contradiction.
07:49:49 <zzo38> Of course this is from the point of view; it doesn't necessarily have to do specifically with space and/or time.
07:49:59 <zzo38> It simply has to do with known/unknown.
07:50:47 <Lumpio-> wtf have you been smoking
07:52:14 <zzo38> But there may be things which can only be known together or which it is impossible to know two things at once, and other ways where the probability gets used, rather than in the way which is most familiar.
07:52:19 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I don't smoke.
08:00:56 <Taneb> Now I have the even-more-dubious honour of having my code removed from Uncyclopedia
08:01:28 <Taneb> Take that, Gregor
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08:13:51 <Sgeo_> Never thought I'd see zzo38 discussing philosophy. Not sure why.
08:23:39 <zzo38> Actually I think of philosophy a lot.
08:24:22 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:24:23 <Taneb> Hello
08:24:48 <Taneb> Can anyone tell me if there exists an IM client with a text-based interface and Skype combatability?
08:24:55 <Taneb> *compatibility
08:26:47 <zzo38> I do not know of any.
08:31:18 <Taneb> :(
08:39:20 <Sgeo_> Why is my Yahoo! account getting spam in Persian?
08:39:59 <Gregor> Taneb: Is it acceptable if you have to have the graphical client running /somewhere/, but can use the text client for all other purposes? Because the libpurple plugin uses the proprietary client's API.
08:40:29 <Taneb> Possible
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08:57:22 <zzo38> I would like to know, if you like the description of the computer game "Potion of Confusing" which I have written above? It is the text which appears in the game.
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11:49:59 <nortti> uhm. I thing I managed to mess something up:
11:50:11 <nortti> :oonbotti MODE oonbotti :+i
11:50:11 <nortti> PRIVMSG oonbotti :I see. And what does that tell you?
11:50:12 <nortti> :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Excess Flood
11:50:12 <nortti> PRIVMSG oonbotti :How do you feel when you say that?
11:50:12 <nortti> ERROR :Closing Link: a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi (Excess Flood)
11:50:14 <nortti> PRIVMSG RROR :Can you elaborate on that?
11:51:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
11:56:22 <zzo38> nortti: Yes, clearly it is failing
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12:13:09 <nortti> now it answers you if you contact it by /msg oonbotti message
12:13:31 <nortti> you can still execute commands with /msg oonbotti command
12:15:11 <Taneb> Hello
12:15:46 <nortti> hi
12:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I've now seen three photos of Shamus Young, and in none of them does he look like he does in any of the others.
12:19:38 <Taneb> Which one's Shamus Young again?
12:19:51 <Phantom_Hoover> DM of the Rings guy.
12:19:55 <Taneb> Okay
12:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Also several other things, like former ActiveWorlds dev.
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12:44:24 <zzo38> Do you know any MML -> MOD/S3M/IT/XM?
12:45:06 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:45:11 <Taneb> Hello
12:46:21 <zzo38> Hello
12:46:43 <Taneb> Can I think of something else to obfuscate?
12:47:02 <Taneb> No, I don't think I can
12:47:58 <zzo38> Do you know how to write music for a computer game I make?
12:48:05 <Taneb> No!
12:48:10 <nortti>
12:48:12 <Taneb> I have no musical talent whatsoever
12:48:57 <zzo38> Maybe Gregor knows?
12:49:16 <zzo38> Or perhaps madbrr knows?
12:57:00 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you play Pokemon Card?
13:06:28 <Taneb> zzo38, used to collect them
13:06:46 <Taneb> Never really got far
13:07:07 <zzo38> I don't collect any cards, but I sometimes play the game
13:08:36 <Taneb> @ping
13:08:37 <lambdabot> pong
13:09:30 <zzo38> What rules would you prefer to adjust in Magic: the Gathering?
13:09:38 <Taneb> I've never played it
13:09:57 <Taneb> The only custom-deck card game I've actually played is Sopio
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13:14:37 <Taneb> (which is really fun!
13:14:38 <Taneb> )
13:19:00 <Vorpal> hi
13:19:10 <Taneb> Hello
13:22:34 <zzo38> I dislike the rule that a aura which is also a creature is discarded; I dislike the rule that a token ceasing to exist as a state-based effect (in my opinion it should instead be based on initial states of objects); I think being unable to draw a card should be an immediate loss (rather than state-based effect); I think many of the rules are klugy
13:27:41 <Vorpal> you know what would be nice, having tasked based subsets of your Application menu in xfce. Like you select which group of programs to show launch icons for directly in your task bar
13:27:58 <Vorpal> for example, one group for C coding, another for photo editing work and so on
13:28:26 <Vorpal> because if I were to have all the icons there all the time, it would take up too much space
13:29:37 <Vorpal> would be even more useful under windows, since under linux it is fairly easy to start programs from the shell instead
13:31:20 -!- nooga_ has joined.
13:31:29 <nooga_> hey guys
13:32:06 <zzo38> nooga_: OK
13:32:54 <nooga_> OK what?
13:34:24 <zzo38> OK
13:34:29 <nooga_> oh
13:34:30 <nooga_> OK
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13:40:02 <nooga> i was testing Cathode
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13:52:23 <Vorpal> nooga, Cathode?
13:58:11 <Taneb> @ping
13:58:11 <lambdabot> pong
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14:02:38 <nortti> @ping
14:02:38 <lambdabot> pong
14:08:59 <Taneb> I'm kinda bored
14:14:06 <zzo38> Then do something
14:14:11 <zzo38> Read book
14:14:17 <Taneb> I just finished a book
14:14:22 <Taneb> And I have so many to choose from
14:14:25 <Vorpal> Taneb, read another book?
14:14:26 <zzo38> Write a book
14:14:43 <nortti> Taneb: have you read 1984? If you haven't read it
14:14:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, use a RNG to decide which book to read next
14:14:50 <nortti> +then
14:15:03 <Taneb> nortti, don't own a copy
14:15:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, or go read tvtropes
14:15:15 <Taneb> I'm avoiding TVTropes
14:15:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, why?
14:15:33 <Vorpal> if you are bored you have some spare time
14:15:35 <Vorpal> so just do it
14:15:38 <Taneb> I want to do other things this evening
14:15:46 <zzo38> Try to play Super ASCII MZX Town
14:15:55 <nortti> Taneb: borrow it from library. or if you live in australi or canada download it as it is under public domain there
14:16:03 <Taneb> Hmm
14:16:12 <Taneb> Local library is closed
14:16:19 <Taneb> But I'm an Australian citizen...
14:16:19 <Vorpal> nortti, how can it already be under public domain there?
14:16:47 <nortti> Vorpal: 50 years after death of author (1950)=2000
14:16:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, I hope you have an ebook reader then, reading long texts on a normal monitor is horrible
14:16:52 <Vorpal> nortti, ah
14:23:06 <nortti> I'll have still to wait 8 years before it will be under public domain here
14:23:15 <nortti> *still have
14:23:38 <Vorpal> nortti, where is "here"?
14:23:46 <nortti> in finland
14:23:48 <Vorpal> ah right
14:28:02 -!- elliott has joined.
14:28:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hi
14:28:22 <elliott> hi
14:28:23 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:28:27 <elliott> help
14:28:32 <Taneb> Popular chap
14:28:38 <elliott> monqy: hi
14:28:39 <Vorpal> quite so
14:28:48 <monqy> hey
14:28:59 <Taneb> And this is coming from someone who had over 1800 friends on facebook
14:29:44 <zzo38> Try to play Super ASCII MZX Town, perhaps.
14:38:55 <elliott> shachaf: @DanielWagner: that's right I meant functions without parameters (variables?): a against a -> b for example. – L01man 4 hours ago
14:49:23 <oklopol> "<zzo38> I would like to know, if you like the description of the computer game "Potion of Confusing" which I have written above? It is the text which appears in the game." <<< you mean that whole thing about maths and probabilities over 1?
14:50:47 <zzo38> oklopol: No!
14:50:50 <zzo38> I mean the other one
14:51:00 <zzo38> Above that; search log perhaps
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15:04:44 <elliott> you're no good at this oklopol
15:05:58 <elliott> I have a week of free time and decent programming experience. Give me everything you've got on Haskell. (self.haskell)
15:06:02 <elliott> hahahahahhhhh go away
15:06:11 <elliott> why are you at the top of /r/haskell
15:06:29 <nortti> oh god. I started reading tvtropes half an hour ago and I can't stop
15:07:36 <olsner> nortti: you can never stop
15:07:41 <olsner> at best you can take a break, but you will be back
15:09:06 <elliott> what works is realising it's boring and closing the tabs
15:09:11 <elliott> usually
15:09:28 <nortti> elliott: I have no tabs
15:09:33 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=pNuUNHlsPgI
15:09:35 <elliott> then you have two problems
15:09:50 <nortti> why?
15:11:07 <nortti> "...and points out that needlessly killing other students is not the best way to go about things."
15:11:11 <elliott> Taneb: what is the weather doing
15:11:17 <Taneb> Rain
15:11:21 <elliott> Taneb: help
15:11:34 <Taneb> Are you outside?
15:11:38 <elliott> no
15:11:45 <Taneb> Is your roof leaking?
15:11:47 <elliott> it's REALLY FUCKING SPOOKY that I can ask Taneb what the weather is and he'll have the same answer is me
15:11:50 <elliott> it feels telepathic
15:14:54 <elliott> Taneb: it's too much rain we'll run out ofrain
15:15:03 <Taneb> Then it will stop raining
15:15:15 <Taneb> It was raining when I joined this channel, I believe
15:15:33 <olsner> I did not observe the weather when I joined this channel
15:16:09 <Taneb> Oh god it is raining
15:16:51 <elliott> it was raining more a few seconds ago
15:19:41 <elliott> Taneb: how much did you bumble hundle pay
15:19:47 <Taneb> NOT YET
15:20:06 <elliott> creis
15:20:08 <elliott> *ys
15:20:17 <Taneb> creys?
15:20:23 <elliott> creys
15:20:30 <elliott> Taneb: how much WILL you pay
15:20:35 <Taneb> $10 !
15:21:02 <elliott> Taneb: Ha! That's below the Linux user average!
15:21:04 <elliott> You're terrible.
15:21:17 <Taneb> But I'm gonna pretend to be a Windows user
15:21:39 <elliott> If you pay less than $15, fizzie and whoever else it was will look down on you.
15:21:41 <elliott> Also me.
15:21:44 <Taneb> FORT EH GRATER GOOD
15:21:45 <elliott> GUILT & SHAMING
15:23:25 <Taneb> BRING IT ON
15:23:29 <elliott> GUILT
15:23:30 <elliott> SHAME
15:23:31 <elliott> GUILT
15:23:32 <elliott> SHAME
15:23:33 <elliott> GUILT
15:23:35 <elliott> SHAME
15:23:37 <Taneb> But first tell me which I should download first
15:23:37 <elliott> GUILT
15:23:39 <elliott> SHAME
15:24:08 <elliott> Bastion or Psychonauts I guess?
15:24:17 <elliott> I'd watch you play Amnesia.
15:24:32 <Taneb> I've already bought it twice; computer isn't good enough to play it
15:24:41 <nortti> :P
15:24:53 <Taneb> But the second time I bought it with Steam
15:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why not play Amensia yourself?
15:25:01 <Taneb> So future me with a better computer can play it
15:25:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Obvious reasons.
15:25:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I would watch you play Amensia if you had a face cam in the video :P
15:25:56 <elliott> These games are too big. :(
15:26:05 <elliott> Psychonauts is a whole four gigabytes.
15:26:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway Bastion is by far the best game in the bundle. And that is because Psychonauts has some control and interface issues from being ported from consoles
15:26:10 <Taneb> I'll do it late at night in the summer
15:26:15 <elliott> It'll take, like, MINUTES to download.
15:26:25 <Vorpal> elliott, took me half an hour :/
15:26:34 <Taneb> I HUNGER
15:26:35 <elliott> It'll probably take me an hour or two, at the least.
15:26:36 <Taneb> brb
15:26:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh?
15:26:53 <elliott> My internet connection is slow.
15:26:54 <Vorpal> thought you had faster internet
15:26:59 <Vorpal> elliott, 8 mbit/s here
15:27:05 <elliott> Same here.
15:27:11 <Vorpal> and it might have been a bit more than half an hour actually
15:27:17 <Vorpal> one hour perhaps?
15:27:24 <Vorpal> I was maxing out my connection though
15:27:44 <elliott> I'd use the BitTorrent downloads but my connection can't seed.
15:27:49 <elliott> (Yes, I've tried forcing encryption and different ports.)
15:27:54 <elliott> (Yes, the port is forwarded.)
15:27:59 <elliott> (I have no idea what my ISP is doing.)
15:27:59 <Vorpal> huh why can't it seed then?
15:28:05 <Vorpal> right
15:28:13 <elliott> Well, my upstream isn't very good. But I'm assuming it's *some* kind of filtering.
15:28:16 <Vorpal> elliott, checked the computer firewall as well?
15:28:25 <Vorpal> as in ufw under ubuntu or whatever
15:28:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Other connections in work fine.
15:28:31 <Vorpal> hm okay
15:28:32 <elliott> This is with Arch and OS X.
15:28:33 <Vorpal> no idea then
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15:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, right IP reported to tracker?
15:29:19 <elliott> I don't see why not.
15:29:21 <elliott> How plot-driven is LIMBO?
15:29:26 <Vorpal> I had some issues with some torrent client (µtorrent iirc?) reporting the internal IP instead
15:29:27 <elliott> I don't want to play Psychonauts or Bastion right now.
15:29:41 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, LIMBO is scary. Not quite Amnesia level
15:29:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I've tried Transmission and rtorrent.
15:29:42 <Vorpal> but still
15:30:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not scared of anything. Apart from lots of things. :(
15:30:03 <Vorpal> ktorrent worked well for me under linux
15:30:20 <elliott> It looks very pretty, from the trailer.
15:30:22 <Vorpal> why not go for sword and sworcery
15:30:26 <Vorpal> it looked funky
15:30:35 <Vorpal> haven't played it yet. Though I did download it
15:30:47 <elliott> Is that not plot driven? The pretension of putting "EP" in the title of a game blinded me to the possibility that it might not be.
15:30:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I would say all the games in the original bundle had exceptional art styles.
15:31:10 <elliott> "Superbrothers: Sword & Sworcery EP delivers a completely fresh adventure gaming experience, defying conventions to develop a unique kind of storytelling."
15:31:14 <elliott> "The plot is unveiled in "sessions," [...]" etc.
15:31:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it has a funky main menu with a spnning LP. If you grab it with the cursor the music stops
15:31:50 <Vorpal> no idea why
15:31:53 <elliott> Heh.
15:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, you could play Braid too if you haven't already. Very fun, though quite pretentious.
15:32:48 <Taneb> Back
15:32:52 <elliott> "As a simple exercise to get me acquainted with Haskell, after idling around on Youtube and stumbling into the American Countdown game show, I wanted to make a solver for the Numbers game."
15:32:54 <elliott> American?!
15:32:56 <elliott> AMERICAN?!
15:32:57 <elliott> HOW DARE YOU
15:33:05 <elliott> Taneb: We have someone to kill.
15:33:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I would strongly recommend playing Bastion. It is utterly awesome.
15:33:15 <Taneb> Whom?
15:33:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I will play Bastion. Just not right now.
15:33:30 <elliott> I wonder if my Mac will handle it well enough.
15:33:35 <elliott> Taneb: The person who asked this question.
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15:33:41 <elliott> They called Countdown American.
15:33:44 <Taneb> That's a statement
15:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, check the system requirements?
15:33:47 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
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15:33:52 <Taneb> THE BASTARDS
15:34:02 <Taneb> I learnt my alphabet from Countdown!
15:34:09 <Taneb> It took me years to get the order
15:34:18 <Taneb> And I /still/ suck at anagrams
15:34:24 <elliott> Consonant, vowel, consonant, another consonant, vowel...
15:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway super meat boy while it has a story it is just really a cut scene at the start and at the end of each world
15:34:27 <Taneb> But I learnt my alphabet from Countdown!
15:34:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you could play that
15:34:42 <elliott> I was considering SMB. But I think I don't need to be more frustrated than I am.
15:34:51 <elliott> Okay, looks like I meet the minimum sysreqs for Bastion.
15:35:00 <Vorpal> elliott, oh come on it is a fun game!
15:35:12 <Vorpal> I recommend using a pad though
15:35:26 <elliott> Wow, SMB has steep processor requirements for Mac.
15:35:26 <Vorpal> (I don't have one, but I tried playing it with a pad at a friends house, much easier!)
15:35:29 <elliott> "Intel Core 2 Duo 2.66 Ghz"
15:35:55 <Vorpal> yeah that is more than my laptop (2.26 GHz)
15:36:01 <elliott> 2.13 here.
15:36:08 <elliott> It'll probably work fine. I hope.
15:36:09 <Vorpal> way less than my desktop (core i7 3.4 GHz)
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15:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, but yeah if you don't have a pad, SMB will be frustrating
15:36:40 <elliott> PS3 controllers work on computers, right?
15:36:41 <Taneb> Dual core 2x2.1GHz
15:36:44 <elliott> Maybe I'll purchase myself one.
15:37:11 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc xbox controllers work on computers as well
15:37:11 <Taneb> I've got a wired XBox controller somewhere
15:37:16 <Vorpal> no?
15:37:25 <Taneb> Vorpal, you need a bluetooth adaptor for wireless ones
15:37:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't like the look of the Xbox controller much.
15:37:31 <Vorpal> Taneb, ah
15:37:41 <Vorpal> elliott, why not?
15:37:45 <elliott> Well, I find the DualShock design close to optimal.
15:37:58 <elliott> The Xbox 360 one is more curvy, which seems like it'd be harder to grip.
15:38:06 <elliott> Also the d-pad looks not as good.
15:38:11 <elliott> But I haven't ever actually used one, so YMMV.
15:38:13 <Taneb> I quite like the feel of the XBox 360
15:38:30 <Taneb> But I've never used a PS3 one and haven't used a PS2 one for YEARS
15:38:34 <elliott> However I do wish the left analogue stick and d-pad were swapped on the DualShock.
15:39:00 <Taneb> Wii Classic Controller is pretty awful
15:40:16 <elliott> Oh, I should probably eat.
15:40:30 <Taneb> That is generally a good idea
15:40:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm okay
15:40:47 <Taneb> 1/1.1GB of Bastion downloaded
15:40:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly, I haven't played on a PS3.
15:40:59 <Vorpal> fair enough
15:41:00 <elliott> Vorpal: But I've played on a PS2.
15:41:05 <elliott> And the DualShock 3 looks basically the same.
15:41:05 <Vorpal> I haven't played much on either
15:41:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why not the N64 controller
15:41:25 <elliott> Well, it's been years. But I liked the controller.
15:41:27 <Vorpal> (what a crazy design)
15:41:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't have three hands.
15:41:42 <Vorpal> elliott, :D
15:41:56 <elliott> The GameCube controller is weird too.
15:42:02 <elliott> (I stole that third-hand joke:
15:42:05 <elliott> `quote third hand
15:42:05 <elliott> )
15:42:08 <HackEgo> 607) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
15:42:09 <elliott> (http://www.electricpig.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/gamecube-controller.jpg)
15:42:44 <Vorpal> yeah quite strange
15:42:53 <Vorpal> the SNES controller was good though
15:43:02 <elliott> Not really.
15:43:06 <elliott> The lack of grips isn't ideal.
15:43:07 <Vorpal> oh?
15:43:10 <Vorpal> hm okay
15:43:14 <elliott> Handles. Whatever you call them.
15:43:18 <Vorpal> right
15:43:19 <elliott> I admit it has minimalist appeal, though.
15:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, then surely the NES one is even better
15:43:52 <Vorpal> also what about that strange one earlier that had a keypads
15:43:54 <Vorpal> keypad*
15:43:55 <elliott> It's uglier :P
15:44:13 <Vorpal> I don't remember which system it was on
15:44:15 <elliott> http://www.nesprojects.com/Images/Original/NES%20TV%20Remote.jpg I... see.
15:45:33 <Vorpal> heh
15:45:41 <Vorpal> also horrible lag atm due to swap trashing
15:45:42 <Vorpal> brb
15:46:23 <nortti> why do you have swap trashing? how big is you RAM?
15:46:39 <Vorpal> 2 GB on this laptop. But I'm running an upgrade of an OS in qemu
15:47:00 <Vorpal> (windows xp 64-bit)
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16:03:11 <Taneb> I reckon Bastion'd be easier with a mouse
16:03:31 <Taneb> brb, stuff
16:03:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:05:00 <Vorpal> well yes obviously
16:05:44 <quintopia> "hi"
16:06:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, does Bastion use the mouse?
16:06:18 <quintopia> !jousturl ../report.c
16:06:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well it was originally an xbox live arcade game. So it works on controller too
16:06:30 <elliott> quintopia: no
16:06:37 <quintopia> whats the command
16:06:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but it works well with wasd and mouse for aiming
16:06:44 <Vorpal> (and shooting)
16:07:01 <elliott> Guess I'll get a gamepad, then.
16:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott, why?
16:07:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it works very well with a mouse
16:07:22 <Vorpal> probably easier to aim even
16:07:25 <elliott> I don't have a mouse connected to a working computer.
16:07:27 <quintopia> elliott: get the link to report.c to appear :P
16:07:31 <elliott> !bfjoust
16:07:32 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
16:07:33 <Vorpal> ah
16:07:34 <elliott> `joustreport
16:07:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
16:07:45 <elliott> as far as report.c it's not anywhere in there
16:07:46 <Vorpal> elliott, mouse a mouse from a non-working computer to a working one?
16:07:48 <elliott> it's in the hg repo
16:07:56 <elliott> Vorpal: mouse a mouse :P
16:08:01 <Vorpal> move*
16:08:04 <elliott> Vorpal: i have nowhere to put this mac that would support a mouse
16:08:06 <Vorpal> but yeah funny typo
16:08:10 <elliott> lap-based mousing sounds awkward
16:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm yeah it does
16:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what sort of input device does it currently have?
16:09:01 <elliott> Touchpad.
16:09:12 <elliott> I've... played Minecraft with it.
16:09:22 <elliott> In fact I did most of the Cube work with it.
16:09:23 <elliott> But...
16:09:27 <elliott> It wasn't the most convenient thing.
16:09:40 <elliott> quintopia: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR
16:09:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway psychonauts uses the mouse to look as well
16:09:48 <elliott> oh, he hasn't imported it yet
16:09:50 <Vorpal> and wasd to move
16:10:53 <quintopia> elliott: meh. cant hg here. i'll do it later.
16:11:12 <elliott> quintopia: You realise bitbucket lets you download the files without hg, right? But it's not there, anyway.
16:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I think bastion would work well with a trackpoint too
16:11:31 <Vorpal> if you have one
16:11:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't.
16:11:46 <Vorpal> oh well
16:11:58 <elliott> quintopia: http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/ffe171208ae9/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/report.c
16:12:00 <elliott> You're welcome.
16:12:04 <quintopia> iei
16:12:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well sword and sworcery seems to be kind of like a point and click, but it has actual fighting mechanics and what not
16:12:49 <Vorpal> very strange
16:13:19 <elliott> Monkey Island has fighting mechanics too :P
16:13:23 <elliott> They just happen to be trivial.
16:13:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean sword and shield stuff
16:13:33 <Vorpal> they are fairly trivial here too
16:13:45 <Vorpal> it is attack and block, but there is an element of timing
16:13:46 <quintopia> huh cant see why my code wouldnt work then. weirds.
16:14:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also a chase scene early on. That is unusual
16:14:18 <Vorpal> in a point and click I mean
16:14:36 <Vorpal> great sound track though
16:14:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but yeah play amnesia :P
16:15:46 <elliott> :(
16:16:18 <Vorpal> hm the OST is named "Sword & Sworcery: The Ballad of the Space Babies" according to the cover.jpg included in the zip
16:16:21 <Vorpal> what
16:16:26 <elliott> good name
16:16:37 <Vorpal> quite. The track titles are just as strange
16:17:52 <Vorpal> The Prettiest Weed, Ode To A Room, Bones McCoy, Little Furnace, Activating Trigons, How We Get Old, And We Got Older are some of the stranger titles
16:18:07 <elliott> how do we get old????
16:18:09 <elliott> i don't know
16:19:15 <Vorpal> pretty good music though
16:19:18 <quintopia> rodgort: trigons
16:19:23 <Vorpal> what?
16:19:30 <quintopia> Vorpal: thats in the humblemusic bundle 3?
16:19:41 <quintopia> s/rodgort/elliott/
16:19:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, eh?
16:20:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, sound track for one of the games in the humble bundle 5
16:20:04 <quintopia> Vorpal: where didst get s&s ost
16:20:05 <elliott> quintopia: The Humble Bundle comes with soundtracks now.
16:20:08 <quintopia> oh
16:20:09 <quintopia> neat
16:20:13 <Vorpal> what is the humble music bundle?
16:20:16 <quintopia> i should download that
16:20:19 <elliott> a bundle of humble music
16:20:22 <Vorpal> I see
16:20:25 <Vorpal> makes sense
16:20:39 <Vorpal> also bastion has one of the best sound tracks ever
16:20:42 <elliott> actually afaik there is no actual such thing
16:20:49 <quintopia> there is
16:20:49 <elliott> but there is an indie game music bundle 3
16:20:53 <quintopia> that thing
16:20:56 <elliott> the word "humble" does not appear in its name
16:21:02 <quintopia> so it doesnt
16:21:05 <quintopia> same difference
16:21:43 <Vorpal> Psychonauts sound track is a bit hectic, works well in the game though. Not quite as nice when you listen to it separately
16:22:38 <elliott> Hey, one of the iMUSE guys did the Psychonauts soundtrack.
16:22:40 <elliott> I guess that's not surprising.
16:22:51 <elliott> Oh, he also did Grim Fandango.
16:22:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you played Grim Fandango?
16:23:04 <Vorpal> nope
16:23:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, don't. The controls are the most unbearable thing in the universe. But apart from that it's brilliant.
16:23:29 <Vorpal> heh
16:23:40 <Vorpal> elliott, is it like that horrible 3D monkey island?
16:23:41 <elliott> (It's a 3D point-and-click adventure game where you have to use the keyboard to move around and click things.)
16:23:42 <elliott> Yes.
16:23:44 <elliott> It's the same interface.
16:23:47 <Vorpal> ouch
16:23:59 <elliott> Same engine.
16:24:02 <Vorpal> ouch
16:24:09 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt scummvm runs it
16:24:13 <elliott> Vorpal: OTOH, unlike the Monkey Island 4, which is a terrible game, it's a really good game instead.
16:24:18 <Vorpal> hm okay
16:24:22 <elliott> They have a subproject to run games with the GrimE engine.
16:24:25 <elliott> I don't know how far along it is.
16:24:31 <elliott> http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/ResidualVM
16:24:35 <elliott> http://www.residualvm.org/
16:24:42 <elliott> "We have reached a rather important milestone for ResidualVM, we are gearing up for our first release, which will support Grim Fandango. To make sure that we don't have any big showstoppers, we need your help."
16:24:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you know they released MI1 and MI2 with new graphics as special edition some time ago?
16:24:54 <elliott> (But probably it's easier to just use Wine or something.)
16:24:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
16:25:14 <elliott> I'm happy they did it, but I didn't buy it, because I'm happy with the originals and in any case probably won't replay them any time soon.
16:25:16 <Vorpal> saw a bit of an LP of MI2 SE, looked nice, and had some quite nice voice acting
16:25:25 <Vorpal> kind of surprised they spent so much work on it
16:25:29 <elliott> I never did finish MI2. :(
16:25:35 <Vorpal> I finished all three
16:25:42 <elliott> I got to the final "boss fight" but never managed to defeat LeChuck.
16:25:47 <Vorpal> also MI3 is my favourite.
16:25:56 <elliott> Mostly because I kept freaking out because of the time constraints and then jumping when he appeared.
16:26:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I love the pirate song in MI3
16:26:19 <elliott> I like CMI too, but come on, Gilbert wasn't even involved!
16:26:25 <Vorpal> CMI?
16:26:28 <Vorpal> oh right
16:26:28 <elliott> Curse of Monkey Island.
16:26:29 <Vorpal> MI3
16:26:29 <elliott> The third one.
16:26:32 <Vorpal> right
16:26:37 <elliott> Admittedly it's the one I have strongest memories of.
16:26:44 <elliott> But I think MI2 is probably the slightly better game.
16:26:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the pirate song is awesome
16:26:57 <elliott> I liked that one.
16:26:59 <elliott> I played MI1 on an Atari ST!
16:27:02 <Vorpal> I liked the puzzles of MI1
16:27:04 <Vorpal> they wer efun
16:27:08 <Vorpal> were fun*
16:27:16 <elliott> It was... uh... fun, I guess.
16:27:16 <Vorpal> a bit too easy though
16:27:24 <elliott> Did you know the original MI1 release had an even more complicated interface?
16:27:29 <elliott> Behold:
16:27:36 <Vorpal> apart from the chicken with pulley though
16:27:39 <elliott> http://media.photobucket.com/image/monkey%20island%201/ATMachine/mimisc1/mi1egafac17.png
16:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, can't launch a browse atm due to swap trashing
16:27:54 <Vorpal> maybe wget and eog?
16:27:58 <elliott> Direct link is http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/ATMachine/mimisc1/mi1egafac17.png
16:28:01 <Vorpal> thanks
16:28:25 <elliott> The distinction between "Turn on" and "Use" is, like, paramount, man.
16:28:36 <Vorpal> waiting for eog to load XD
16:28:47 <elliott> (By the way, do you mean "thrashing"?)
16:29:02 <Vorpal> yeah typo
16:29:29 <Vorpal> anyway yeah that is a silly interface
16:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, the radial menu in the special editions and CMI is far better if you need to both push and pull something
16:29:57 <elliott> CMI's interface is very good.
16:30:00 <elliott> IMO.
16:30:03 <Vorpal> indeed
16:30:15 <Vorpal> same sort of interface in the special editions
16:30:25 <elliott> Although I suspect that it's a little bit more complicated than it needs to be.
16:30:39 <Vorpal> also I like the special edition graphics style far better than the CMI graphics style
16:30:41 <elliott> The "use" vs. "talk to" distinction isn't really ever useful and is only funny to misuse ~three times.
16:31:01 <elliott> Really? I love CMI's style.
16:31:14 <elliott> It's very... vivid.
16:31:34 <Vorpal> a bit too strong lines in it.
16:31:40 <Vorpal> very cartoony
16:32:19 <elliott> Did you know Crawl has a Monkey Island reference???
16:32:23 <Vorpal> no
16:32:28 <Vorpal> what is the reference?
16:32:46 <Vorpal> also the battle mechanics in CMI are better than in MI1, due to the rhyming
16:35:08 <elliott> Vorpal: There's a demonic skull called Murray in hell.
16:35:23 <Vorpal> nice
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16:53:50 <Taneb> Games are intrinsically monoidal
16:53:51 <Taneb> Hello
16:54:02 <elliott> hi
16:54:10 <Taneb> Semigroupal, at least
16:54:18 <Taneb> (is that a word?)
16:55:18 <Taneb> Consider
16:55:19 <Taneb> a
16:55:29 <Taneb> Simplification of Snakes and Ladders
16:55:48 <Taneb> Or snakes and ladders, it doesn't actually need simplifying
16:56:15 <Taneb> A player can choose six moves
16:56:26 <Taneb> *from six
16:56:45 <Taneb> That the move is chosen via a die is irrelevant
16:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The die can choose from six moves.
16:58:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Dice games are actually just that, games for dice.
16:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> We're just the equipment they use to move the pieces.
16:58:40 <Taneb> They're also useful tools for explaining my thought
16:58:40 <Taneb> s
16:58:53 <Taneb> This would be a lot more complicated if I chose to explain using Chess
16:59:09 <Taneb> "5, 3" is a section of a game-log
16:59:18 <Taneb> As is "2,5"
16:59:37 <Taneb> (2, 5) <> (3) == 2 <> (5, 3)
16:59:45 <Taneb> == "2, 5, 3"
17:00:47 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:01:09 <Taneb> Unfortunately, this may lead to invalid gamestates
17:01:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't explain drinking games
17:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Method of suicide for drinks.
17:02:11 <Vorpal> ah
17:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, more like Russian roulette.
17:02:34 <Vorpal> awesome
17:02:55 <Taneb> Vorpal, you may be mixing up drinking with drinks
17:04:10 <mroman> Why does "foo = foo; foo + foo;" pass through haskells typechecker?
17:04:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, no
17:04:22 <mroman> at least the "foo + foo" part of it.
17:04:42 <Taneb> :t let foo = foo in foo
17:04:42 <lambdabot> forall t. t
17:04:53 <mroman> foo :: t, yes.
17:04:56 <mroman> that is obvious.
17:05:01 <Taneb> Any t
17:05:03 <Taneb> Any t at all
17:05:05 <mroman> bat there is no instance Num for t?
17:05:07 <mroman> *but
17:05:15 <Taneb> Including t's for which Num is defined
17:05:30 <mroman> :t (+)
17:05:31 <Taneb> :t let foo = (foo :: Int) in foo
17:05:31 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a -> a -> a
17:05:32 <lambdabot> Int
17:05:58 <Taneb> All it knows is that foo is the same type as foo
17:06:05 <Taneb> That may be an Int, for all Haskell knows
17:06:23 <Taneb> let foo = foo in foo == _|_
17:06:24 <mroman> So t is literally "of any type"?
17:06:32 <mroman> and haskell may deduce everything out of it?
17:06:36 <Taneb> Yeah
17:07:07 <mroman> I see.
17:07:40 <Taneb> Principle of explosion
17:08:05 <mroman> Sometimes I get error messages like Could not deduce Num ~ a
17:08:14 <mroman> and I have to manually tell ghc that it is Num.
17:08:19 <Vorpal> damn I think this USB memory stick is dead.
17:08:30 <Taneb> That's happened to me before
17:08:32 <mroman> so I was surprised that it can deduce Num ~ t in the case of foo = foo
17:08:40 <Taneb> On the one day I actually did my Latin homework
17:08:41 <Vorpal> good thing I didn't have anything important on it, but now I need to find another one to transfer this stuff
17:08:51 <elliott> mroman: Num is not a type.
17:08:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, all that was on it was a bootable linux distro
17:09:00 <mroman> elliott: It's a type class, yes.
17:09:03 <Taneb> :)
17:09:08 <elliott> My point is that you will never get such an error message.
17:09:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, you learn latin?
17:09:17 <Vorpal> why
17:09:18 <Taneb> Yeah
17:09:23 <Taneb> It's better than Spanish
17:09:27 <Vorpal> heh
17:09:32 <Vorpal> why not go for French?
17:09:36 <elliott> Anyway, "Could not deduce T ~ a" is a misleading error message; what it really means is "You used an 'a' where I expected a 'T'"; "Type mismatch: T =/= a but you're treating them the same", and so on.
17:09:47 <Taneb> French was compulsory, I enjoyed latin more
17:09:59 <Taneb> :t let foo = foo in replicate foo 'a'
17:10:00 <lambdabot> [Char]
17:10:04 <mroman> I thnk
17:10:05 <Taneb> > let foo = foo in replicate foo 'a'
17:10:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, ah I see
17:10:09 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
17:10:12 <mroman> *I think
17:10:21 <mroman> class Foo a where doStuff :: a -> a -> a
17:10:29 <Vorpal> Taneb, here English is compulsory. And I took French as the optional one
17:10:32 <mroman> instance Foo Bar where doStuff q = q + q produces such an error message
17:10:44 <Vorpal> Obviously Swedish is compulsory too
17:10:50 <Taneb> Heh
17:10:57 <mroman> Because ghc has no chance of knowing that Num a =>
17:11:06 <Taneb> But yeah, I've escaped English and French
17:11:10 <elliott> mroman: You will never see the message "Could not deduce Num ~ a", except possibly when using ConstraintKinds.
17:11:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, how? You live in UK
17:11:21 <Vorpal> you can't escape English
17:11:22 <Taneb> 6th form
17:11:23 <elliott> You may see "Could not deduce Num a" or "Could not deduce Int ~ a", though.
17:11:29 <Taneb> The subject, not the language
17:11:32 <Vorpal> Taneb, no clue what that means in Swedish terms
17:11:47 <Taneb> Means I'm old enough to specialize
17:11:51 <Taneb> AND IT IS TIME TO COOK
17:11:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:17:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:17:12 <Taneb> IT IS TIME TO CHAT
17:17:13 <Taneb> Hell
17:17:14 <Taneb> o
17:17:19 <elliott> hell
17:17:29 <nortti> hell
17:17:36 <elliott> o
17:18:54 <nortti> o
17:19:02 <elliott> hell
17:22:05 <Taneb> But, alas, nothing is everything
17:22:10 <Taneb> except fix id
17:22:11 <Taneb> :t fix id
17:22:12 <lambdabot> forall a. a
17:22:22 <Taneb> :t fix id + fix id
17:22:23 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a
17:22:37 <Taneb> :t fix id >> fix id
17:22:38 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => m b
17:22:39 <elliott> my fix can;t id im newr in potins
17:22:50 <Taneb> :t fix id <> fix id
17:22:51 <lambdabot> Doc
17:23:00 <Taneb> :t fix id `mappend` fix id
17:23:01 <lambdabot> forall a. (Monoid a) => a
17:23:07 <Taneb> :t fix id `mplus` fix id
17:23:08 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadPlus m) => m a
17:23:08 <elliott> (++) is mappend in lambdabot
17:23:09 <elliott> jfyi
17:23:13 <Taneb> :t (++)
17:23:14 <lambdabot> forall m. (Monoid m) => m -> m -> m
17:23:17 <Taneb> !!
17:23:31 <Taneb> :t replicate (fix id) (fix id)
17:23:31 <lambdabot> forall a. [a]
17:23:47 <Taneb> :t fix (sum . replicate 1)
17:23:48 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a
17:23:59 <Taneb> > fix (sum . replicate 1)
17:24:03 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
17:24:14 <Taneb> (trivia, this is either 1 or 0)
17:24:28 <Taneb> (or _|_)
17:24:35 <Taneb> (or infinity)
17:24:49 <Taneb> (no it isn't, it's any number)
17:25:01 <Taneb> > fix (head . replicate 1)
17:25:05 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
17:25:11 <Taneb> (that's 1)
17:25:43 <elliott> it is?
17:25:47 <elliott> :t fix (head . replicate 1)
17:25:55 <lambdabot> forall a. a
17:26:15 <Sgeo_> Is pushing my gf to learn Haskell likely to make her a better programmer?
17:26:15 <Taneb> :t fix
17:26:16 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a) -> a
17:26:20 <Sgeo_> She seems to be under that impression
17:26:34 <Taneb> Sgeo_, better at Haskell programming
17:26:37 <Sgeo_> (After I expressed guilt about not doing much for her after she helped fix up my resume)
17:27:06 <Taneb> Worse at C programming, Java programming, Python programming, Go programming, JavaScript programming, C# programming, C++ programming
17:27:29 <Taneb> Assembly programming, D programming, Lisp programming, Visual Basic programming, PHP programming, ASP programming
17:27:31 <Taneb> etc
17:27:47 <Taneb> Also Category theory
17:27:50 <Sgeo_> What, by spoiling her?
17:28:39 <Taneb> Haskell's pretty damn addictive
17:28:51 <Taneb> And gives false impressions about category theory
17:32:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:34:02 <Taneb> So, now I have no idea what a Functor actually /is/
17:34:53 <elliott> hi ais523 whats a flower
17:36:11 <ais523> elliott: its when you ground up wheat
17:36:12 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:36:15 <ais523> @messages
17:36:15 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 16h 56m 2s ago: <olsner> elliott: I can confirm that I have no clue what kuskelar the clatsop man is doing
17:36:19 <elliott> ais523: thank's
17:36:58 <Vorpal> lol, the what?
17:37:07 <elliott> Vorpal: bfjoust warrior
17:37:12 <Taneb> :t head . replicate 1
17:37:13 <lambdabot> forall a. a -> a
17:37:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
17:45:22 <zzo38> Taneb: Then learn what a functor is. A functor is homomorphism of a category to another category (possibly the same one, in which case it is endofunctor)
17:45:52 <Taneb> You do realise I have a very poor idea of most of the words in that sentence?
17:46:02 <Taneb> I'm going to play with modal logic for a bit
17:46:12 <Taneb> I think possibility is a Monad
17:47:07 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, a monad is endofunctor having two additional operations defined (in Haskell, called return and join) satisfying certain laws.
17:47:16 <ais523> oh, elliott, you might know what this is called because we don't: what's it called where you have a family of things that sort-of obey the comonad laws, except that instead of it being the same comonad each time, it's a different member of the family?
17:47:32 <elliott> ais523: I don't quite understan
17:47:32 <elliott> d
17:47:35 <elliott> s/\nd/d/
17:47:55 <zzo38> The Functor class in Haskell is for endofunctors on (->) category
17:48:07 <ais523> well, you have laws like "if you have an Mx, you can get an MMx", right?
17:48:22 <ais523> this is "if you have an (M_i)x, you can get an (M_j)(M_k)x"
17:48:41 <ais523> and so on with the other comonad laws
17:50:46 <elliott> ais523: ah
17:50:49 <elliott> perhaps an indexed comonad?
17:50:52 <elliott> indexed monads look like
17:51:11 <elliott> (>>=) :: (IMonad m) => m i j a -> (a -> m j k b) -> m j k b
17:51:20 <elliott> so you need a "transition"
17:51:51 <ais523> hmm
17:51:52 <elliott> :t let (>>=) = undefined :: m i j a -> (a -> m j k b) -> m j k b in (>>= id)
17:51:53 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> * -> * -> *) i j k b. m i j (m j k b) -> m j k b
17:51:56 <elliott> so you have
17:52:05 <elliott> join :: m i j (m j k a) -> m j k a
17:52:08 <elliott> so you'd have
17:52:17 <elliott> extend :: w j k a -> w i j (m j k a)
17:52:18 <zzo38> returnI :: a -> m x x a; joinI :: m x y (m y z a) -> m x z a; is defining a indexed monad, I think
17:52:19 <elliott> or possibly
17:52:32 <elliott> idk
17:52:35 <elliott> something lik ethat anyway
17:52:41 <elliott> zzo38: ah, yes
17:52:43 <zzo38> For indexed comonad you would then have extractI :: w x x a -> a; duplicateI :: w x z a -> w x y (w y z a);
17:52:46 <elliott> ais523: sorry, I got it wrong, zzo38's types are right
17:53:00 <ais523> oh, right, zzo38's types make more sense
17:53:06 <elliott> *like that
17:53:11 <ais523> I need to work out whether that's what I have or not
17:53:26 <elliott> so instead of pulling a path closer together like indexed monads, an indexed comonad lets you stretch the path out
17:53:26 <elliott> sort of
17:53:29 <elliott> from x->z to x->y->z
17:53:38 <elliott> not sure what that would be useful for, although it sounds interesting
17:53:45 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
17:53:47 <zzo38> Notice that some monads and comonads that use a monoid (such as Writer and Traced), the indexed version of them will use a category.
17:54:23 <elliott> hmm, interesting
17:54:27 <elliott> how does that work? say Writer
17:54:55 <zzo38> elliott: Well, it seem obvious to me, but I could explain if wanted.
17:55:09 <elliott> i'm kind of dumb :) but let me think
17:55:18 <elliott> return :: a -> Writer cat x x a
17:55:34 <elliott> join :: Writer cat x y (Writer cat y z a) -> Writer cat x z a
17:55:37 <elliott> hmm, I think I see
17:55:43 <ais523> ooh, what I've got isn't /quite/ an indexed monad either, it's a quotient of them over something
17:55:50 <Taneb> ◇(◇x) -> ◇x
17:56:01 <ais523> err, indexed comonad
17:56:02 <Taneb> x -> ◇x
17:56:10 <Taneb> Hence, possibility is a Monad
17:56:21 <ais523> Taneb: heh, ours is called ◇ too
17:56:23 <Taneb> Or Monads represent possibility?
17:56:27 <elliott> Taneb: you need fmap too
17:56:37 <elliott> (a -> b) -> (◇a -> ◇b)
17:56:41 <elliott> I think you don't have that, although I forget
17:56:43 <Taneb> elliott, fmap is definable using join and return
17:56:46 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes you do need fmap too. But in what category would they be?
17:56:49 <zzo38> Taneb: No it isn't
17:56:50 <elliott> Taneb: you are wrong
17:56:57 <Taneb> So I am
17:57:00 <elliott> there's lots of things like monads or comonads except they don't have fmap
17:57:03 <elliott> in modal logic type things
17:57:04 <elliott> it's weird
17:57:07 <Taneb> (a -> b) -> ◇a -> ◇b
17:57:11 <ais523> elliott: this is definitely a modal logic type thing
17:57:17 <ais523> both Taneb's and mine :)
17:57:21 <elliott> right
17:57:31 <Taneb> Hence possibility is a Monad
17:58:29 <zzo38> You also have to say what category, I suppose.
17:59:37 <ais523> elliott: OK, so what I've got is ◇_(a*b)x -> (◇_a)(◇_b)x
17:59:49 <elliott> hmm
17:59:52 <elliott> is a*b product here?
17:59:54 <ais523> where you should interpret that * as being a generic multiplication-like operator
18:00:02 <ais523> (it's commutative semiring multiplication)
18:00:06 <elliott> ah, so not extend :: w (a,b) x -> w a (w b x), then
18:00:28 <elliott> ais523: what's extract?
18:00:33 <elliott> extract :: w 1 x -> x?
18:00:47 <ais523> that would be a special case, I think there's a semiring with tupling as its multiplication (although not a commutative one)
18:00:51 <ais523> and yes
18:00:57 <elliott> cute
18:00:59 <elliott> what is this for?
18:01:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:01:34 <ais523> we found a generic structure behind all the resource-bounding type systems we'd been looking at (apart from SCI, but that just needs a side-condition)
18:02:16 <ais523> the specific motivating example is realtime type systems that prove that everything executes in the time it's meant to, and that every part of the system is ready to receive input when it actually gets input
18:02:23 <ais523> which can be synthesized into pipelined circuitry
18:03:25 <ais523> elliott: anyway, it's clear that this is the quotient of an indexed comonad: instead of w i j x, I have w q x where q*i = j
18:04:04 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: CHILI THYME).
18:04:06 <elliott> right
18:04:11 <elliott> hmm
18:04:14 <elliott> but what's the RHS of extend there?
18:04:19 <elliott> oh
18:04:20 <elliott> never mind
18:04:24 <elliott> actually
18:04:25 <elliott> yes, do mind
18:04:30 <elliott> because on the RHS, you need two values again
18:04:36 <elliott> oh
18:04:37 <elliott> you can just use 1
18:04:49 <elliott> or, err, wait, what?
18:05:10 <elliott> extend :: w x z a -> w x y (w y z a)
18:05:23 <elliott> ais523: so it's actually w (x*z) a -> w (x*y) (w (y*z) a)
18:05:26 <zzo38> Do you mean duplicate?
18:05:26 <elliott> for some y
18:05:31 <elliott> ais523: oh, I guess you just pick y = 1
18:05:33 <elliott> zzo38: yes, sorry
18:05:35 <ais523> elliott: yes, exactly
18:05:47 <ais523> whether or not we pick y=1 has been a raging argument between me and my supervisor over the last several weeks
18:05:55 <ais523> and we're /still/ not entirely sure which is better, or even which sides we're on any more
18:05:58 <elliott> ais523: well, actually, there's a big problem
18:06:09 <elliott> ais523: that type signature means that whoever picks extend gets to *pick y themselves*
18:06:14 <elliott> so it's not _your_ choice
18:06:18 <elliott> if I give you w (x*z) a
18:06:28 <elliott> then it's my right to demand w (x*42) (w (42*z) a) back
18:06:31 <ais523> then I can pick any y I like, right
18:06:35 <ais523> that's not a problem in our use of it
18:06:36 <elliott> no, /I/ can
18:06:38 <elliott> you don't get to choose
18:06:43 <ais523> err, right
18:06:52 <elliott> now, if this works for you, it has the happy consequence that "whether or not we pick y=1" is an incoherent argument
18:06:53 <ais523> the problem's specifically in the presentation
18:06:55 <elliott> because you don't get to pick
18:07:03 <elliott> you must support /all/ y
18:07:04 <ais523> as in, do we define things for y=1 and then specify rules to transform to other y
18:07:11 <ais523> or do we define things generically over y in the first place
18:07:16 <elliott> the latter, former sounds awful
18:07:25 <elliott> say close to the comonadic defniition
18:07:40 <elliott> unless there are compelling reasons not to
18:07:44 <elliott> if it affects how the language is used or something
18:07:48 <ais523> well, it wasn't intended to be a comonad originally, we just sort-of noticed it was
18:07:48 <elliott> assuming it's still that thing
18:08:00 <elliott> ais523: meh, it doesn't matter when you notice as long as you do
18:08:01 <ais523> this sort of thing happens a lot in category theory
18:08:40 <nortti> ^echo #echo
18:08:40 <fungot> #echo #echo
18:08:41 <oonbotti> #echo
18:09:00 <ais523> nortti: you can't get a loop from that because fungot ignores oonbotti
18:09:00 <nortti> #msg oonbotti foo
18:09:01 <fungot> ais523: lafeu. do not i know you do, if they meane a fray to be fought between sir hugh the welsh priest and caius the french doctor
18:09:01 <oonbotti> Ok
18:09:09 <nortti> ^echo #readmsg
18:09:10 <fungot> #readmsg #readmsg
18:09:13 <elliott> nortti: you're not allowed to use your own bots to botloop
18:09:15 <elliott> that's disgusting
18:09:16 <ais523> nortti: but I set one up before the ignore was added
18:09:30 <nortti> elliott: I am not botlooping
18:09:32 <ais523> Underload is an /excellent/ language for writing botloops in
18:10:20 <nortti> #msg oonbotti foo
18:10:21 <oonbotti> Ok
18:11:21 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#readmsg
18:11:30 <ais523> elliott: perhaps I should just present both presentations in the paper
18:11:37 <ais523> the main issue there is proving them equivalent
18:11:46 <elliott> ais523: don't give in to imperfection!
18:12:02 <nortti> yay. I managed to make 1 bot botloop
18:12:07 <nortti> #quit
18:12:07 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
18:12:10 <ais523> it's kind-of awkward to read with the extra y in everywhere (except we didn't call it y)
18:12:12 <ais523> nortti: in PM to itself?
18:12:34 <nortti> ais523: yes
18:12:48 <ais523> what's the point of a botloop if you can't spam a channel with it?
18:13:12 <zzo38> Because you can.
18:13:12 <nortti> I don't know
18:13:20 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:13:24 <zzo38> It doesn't matter whether or not you can spam a channel with it.
18:13:43 <nortti> #msg nortti foo
18:13:44 <oonbotti> Ok
18:13:50 <nortti> #msg nortti_ foo
18:13:51 <oonbotti> Ok
18:14:05 <nortti> #readmsg
18:14:06 <oonbotti> nortti: foo
18:14:18 <nortti> hmm. it loses all of the messages
18:14:55 <Vorpal> https://imgur.com/1e1m2 <-- I took this picture recently with my crappy mobile camera. Still I think that was an amazing car.
18:15:13 <nortti> #quit
18:15:13 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit).
18:16:10 <Vorpal> (also it had both plush dice and a wunderbaum hanging from the rear view mirror!)
18:16:13 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:16:18 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
18:16:41 <elliott> hi what
18:16:42 <nortti> #msg nortti foo
18:16:42 <oonbotti> Ok
18:16:48 <nortti> #msg nortti_ bar
18:16:48 <oonbotti> Ok
18:16:51 <Vorpal> elliott, look at https://imgur.com/1e1m2
18:16:55 <elliott> ok
18:17:12 <Vorpal> elliott, it claims to be a Volvo, a WW and a Skoda. :)
18:17:15 <nortti> #readmsg
18:17:15 <oonbotti> nortti: foo
18:17:24 <elliott> WW
18:17:27 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
18:17:29 <nortti_> #readmsg
18:17:29 <oonbotti> nortti: bar
18:17:30 <elliott> i don't buy any car unless it's a bmw and a horse
18:17:31 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
18:17:38 <Vorpal> elliott, right
18:19:20 <nortti> #quit
18:19:20 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit).
18:19:37 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:33:43 <Sgeo_> Oh god I think I'm going to end up arguing with a /r/TheLastAirbender mod
18:34:05 <Sgeo_> I don't want to argue with a mod
18:42:07 <Sgeo_> elliott, have you ever argued with a mod of a subreddit?
18:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> why
18:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> are you in that subreddit
18:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i once argued with an r/gameofthrones mod if that helps
18:46:07 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, because I like Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra?
18:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> what is arugment
18:47:25 <Sgeo_> I say that the unspoilered stuff in http://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/ut8sn/oh_nick_always_the_tease/c4ybugf is a spoiler, mod says it's just a theory
18:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> spoilers!!! that was what my argument was about
18:47:53 <Sgeo_> Note that we got (what seems to be) a clear answer to the question of whether the two characters are the same today.
18:50:48 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should have linked to context?
18:51:16 <elliott> hi
18:52:24 <Sgeo_> I replied
18:52:34 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:52:59 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/m5gd9ncmfogmd6cd18sjhg
18:53:06 <Sgeo_> I hope that was a decent reply
18:53:24 <Sgeo_> ....I think I just violated reddiquette, by sharing that
18:53:24 <Sgeo_> :/
18:54:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hahaha you know what is a funny joke
18:54:33 <elliott> hi
18:55:03 <Sgeo_> hi
18:55:06 <elliott> no
18:56:27 <Sgeo_> no is the new hi
18:57:49 <nortti> no
19:05:25 -!- aloril has joined.
19:13:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:15:28 -!- monqy has joined.
19:15:34 <oerjan> <zzo38> I agree with Hawking's "Reality is not a quality you can test with litmus paper." <-- except the reality of pH
19:16:22 <elliott> monqy: hi
19:16:33 <quintopia> elliott: no
19:16:43 <monqy> hello
19:16:43 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:16:56 <monqy> good message
19:16:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: baking in hi again | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:18:20 <quintopia> ihyqn: om
19:18:44 -!- elliott has set topic: waking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:19:04 <oerjan> elliott: dammit
19:19:30 <elliott> hello
19:19:41 <oerjan> why must people break the rules even if i never explained them
19:19:58 <oerjan> (of course elliott would break them even more if i did)
19:20:10 <elliott> please explain the rules so i may break them more effectively
19:20:48 -!- quintopia has set topic: waking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:21:07 <nortti> "kind of like Bolshevik R2-D2"
19:21:10 <oerjan> no reusing previous words, always go in steps of 1 levenshtein distance
19:21:23 <elliott> quintopia: what did you change
19:21:31 <oerjan> (ok not changing it at all is permitted)
19:21:49 <quintopia> elliott: the name of the person who posted the last topic
19:21:58 <oerjan> quintopia: plagiarist!
19:22:01 <elliott> :'(
19:25:21 <nortti> fungot: hi
19:25:22 <fungot> nortti: rosin. take you this. julia. no, by this same coxcombe that we haue giuen thee faces to the bent of womans fancy? i am a daughter to his blood
19:25:50 <nortti> ^style c64
19:25:51 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
19:25:56 <nortti> fungot: hi
19:25:57 <fungot> nortti: 0): the optional step keyword is called multicolor text mode. if your output is not a plus sign () specifies that the second
19:26:35 <nortti> how does fungot create those sentences?
19:26:35 <fungot> nortti: 20 next n,k,j ( stopping nested loops) is accomplished by jumping directly into the system provides for " auto-start" of using " actual numbers": print t(t); 130 for q= 1 to 8
19:29:03 <nortti> so fungot prints out something if message contains word fungot?
19:29:04 <fungot> nortti: new ( performs a logical file number can range from zero to one cor- respondence between the last four sid chip are numerous and varied. only then is it a little more involved, by controlling bits 0, four of the control and command register 660 so it can be found just by pokeing their screen codes needed for the characters
19:33:06 <oerjan> nortti: fizzie pregenerates files with markov chain probabilities for each style, which fungot uses
19:33:06 <fungot> oerjan: 2) is increased by one nybble of the transformations you can define dozens of sprite movement is called the sprite character. there is a simple poke 792,193 will accomplish this. the
19:35:58 * Sgeo_ is still pissed http://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/ut8sn/oh_nick_always_the_tease/c4ybugf?context=1
19:36:03 <elliott> hi
19:36:04 <Sgeo_> (Note: Spoilers)
19:37:44 <zzo38> Do you prefer my rules for ties in Pokemon Card, or the standard rules, or some other variant which I have not heard of?
19:39:43 <oerjan> i prefer a variant which _no_ one has heard of, not even me
19:39:57 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:40:07 -!- HackEgo has joined.
19:40:15 <oerjan> `welcome HackEgo
19:40:18 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:42:28 <nortti> could someone explain what is so bad about busybox vi?
19:52:40 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:52:42 <Taneb> Hmm
19:53:10 <Taneb> Hello
19:54:54 <elliott> hi
19:55:30 <Taneb> I think that, rather than Possibility being a monad, Possibility is what monads translate to under the curry-howard isomorphism
19:56:08 <zzo38> Taneb: It still has to be an endofunctor, though
19:56:13 <Taneb> Where m a means "It is possible that an a exists"
19:56:31 <elliott> I do not think that is true at all.
19:56:36 <elliott> At least, I don't think CH really works like that.
19:56:42 <Taneb> I'm almost certainly wrong
19:56:49 <elliott> That loses the distinction between two separate monads, if they both translate to Possibility...
19:58:46 <zzo38> Is (Time -> Amplitude) a reasonable representation of (not yet stored to file) audio data in Haskell?
19:59:36 <elliott> Sure.
19:59:39 <elliott> It's inefficient to modify, though.
20:01:45 <oerjan> <elliott> At least, I don't think CH really works like that. <-- actually that rings a bell...
20:02:21 <elliott> oerjan: Probability being a monad seems reasonable; the other way around doesn't really...
20:02:35 <oerjan> each monad could correspond to a modal logic, in other words
20:02:50 <Vorpal> well I just sent some files over bluetooth to my laptop. Apparently the transfer was successful. But it didn't tell me where it placed the sodding file...
20:03:11 <Vorpal> oh in ~/Public? Why did it create that directory and why did it place it there?
20:04:19 <zzo38> One thing is the monad of probabilities like (WriterT (Product x) []) but that may not be what you meant
20:04:23 <elliott> oerjan: that sounds reasonable
20:04:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E2%80%93Howard_correspondence#Correspondence_between_natural_deduction_and_lambda_calculus mentions it in the list at the end
20:04:34 <elliott> oerjan: I didn't interpret what Taneb said as that,t hough
20:04:43 <elliott> Vorpal: probably XDG
20:04:56 <Taneb> elliott, consider that I never know quite what I'm on about
20:05:02 <Taneb> I'm like itidus-lite
20:05:03 <oerjan> elliott: well naturally, although every modal logic with the right axioms corresponds to _some_ notion of possibility, i should think
20:05:12 <elliott> oerjan: right
20:05:25 <Vorpal> elliott, heh
20:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah anyway I did a find on ~ to find it
20:05:41 <Vorpal> and that takes ages
20:06:02 <Vorpal> (some 80 GB or so, with tens of thousands of small files under ~/src)
20:06:43 <Taneb> Necessity may be a comonoad
20:06:46 <Taneb> *comonad
20:06:49 <Vorpal> actually I will run find ~ | wc -l out of interest
20:07:02 <nortti> Vorpal: how often do you klean your ~/src ?
20:07:12 <nortti> *clean
20:07:17 <Vorpal> nortti, clean?
20:07:27 <Vorpal> nortti, why would I clean away my own code
20:07:32 <Vorpal> and projects I work on
20:07:37 <Taneb> If it x is necessary, it is necessary that x is necessary
20:07:43 <Taneb> (duplicate)
20:07:48 <Vorpal> okay there are some other stuff there, but only things I need actually
20:08:02 <Vorpal> like a cross compiler toolchain build environment for h8300-coff
20:08:04 <Taneb> If x is necessary, x must be
20:08:06 <Taneb> (extract)
20:08:14 <zzo38> And then you should need fmap
20:08:28 <Taneb> Yeah, that's the hard one
20:08:32 <nortti> Vorpal: ah. I thought you used ~/src for compiling programs from source and placed your own projects to something like ~/projects
20:08:47 <nortti> $ find ~ | wc -l
20:08:47 <nortti> 2899
20:09:13 <Vorpal> nortti, nah, stuff I compile from source go there too, but get removed (apart from a file that contains the ./configure flags used, to help with upgrades)
20:09:14 <Taneb> If the existence of x forces the existence of y, does the necessity of x force the necessity of y?
20:09:25 <Vorpal> nortti:
20:09:26 <Vorpal> $ find ~ | wc -l
20:09:27 <Vorpal> 697776
20:09:32 <Vorpal> wow
20:09:49 <Vorpal> nortti, this is on my laptop. My desktop is booted to windows atm, so I can't check ther
20:09:51 <Vorpal> there*
20:10:37 <Vorpal> $ find src | wc -l
20:10:37 <Vorpal> 528744
20:10:41 <Vorpal> that is a sizable part of it
20:10:59 <nortti> $ find src/ | wc -l
20:10:59 <nortti> 302
20:11:13 <nortti> find projects/ | wc -l
20:11:13 <nortti> 1076
20:11:29 <Vorpal> I think I have a two linux kernels there too. One is for this laptop the other is for cross compiling to an old dell desktop that takes far too long to do it by itself
20:11:43 <Vorpal> (it is a P3 @ 993 MHz, 512 MB RAM)
20:11:48 <Vorpal> (way too slow)
20:11:57 <nortti> and it is still faster than mine :P
20:12:00 <Vorpal> yeah right
20:12:07 <Vorpal> do you compile your own kernel though?
20:12:08 <mroman> 993 Mhz.
20:12:16 <Vorpal> mroman, yep
20:12:17 <mroman> That's like 3 times as fast as 333 Mhz Pentium
20:12:21 <nortti> Vorpal: sometimes
20:12:33 <Vorpal> mroman, almost. I have no idea why they didn't go for 1 GHz
20:12:39 <Vorpal> nortti, also that dell desktop came with windows 98
20:12:43 <Vorpal> that is how old it is
20:12:54 <nortti> mine has win98SE
20:13:01 <Vorpal> well might have been SE
20:13:02 <nortti> *had
20:13:04 <Vorpal> I don't remember
20:13:14 <Vorpal> point is that it is bloody outdated
20:13:23 <nortti> and it has winXPpro license taped to it
20:13:27 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway that dell has a 20 GB HDD
20:13:30 <Vorpal> so not very useful
20:14:02 <nortti> wow. that is smaller than in my computer
20:14:04 <Vorpal> also the HDD started making strange noises recently.
20:14:10 <Taneb> Oh, come on, I've got (<*>) but not fmap
20:14:12 <Vorpal> And I can't find any other IDE disks
20:14:38 <elliott> Taneb: So no pure?
20:14:43 <elliott> If you have pure and (<*>) you have fmap.
20:14:43 <Taneb> No
20:14:57 <Taneb> Not without the naturalistic fallacy
20:15:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is that fallacy?
20:15:24 <Taneb> What is true is good
20:15:49 <Taneb> If p is the case, p ought to be permitted
20:15:54 <Vorpal> heh?
20:17:09 <Taneb> For some values of necessity, that fallacy is not a fallacy
20:17:17 <Taneb> But consider the necessity of Law.
20:17:25 <Taneb> Murder happens, so should murder be legal?
20:18:05 <elliott> hi
20:18:47 <Taneb> We're into philosophy and law here, two topics I am even less well versed in than I am mathematics and computer science
20:18:57 <Taneb> So, I'll think of a different example
20:19:01 <Taneb> No I won't.
20:21:53 <oerjan> Taneb: there are scores of modal logics depending on which axioms you accept, though
20:22:11 <Taneb> I'm trying to remain as general and sweeping as possible
20:22:36 <oerjan> that just means you take one with few axioms
20:23:05 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm avoiding p -> □p
20:23:36 <Taneb> p -> ◇p is okay, though
20:24:08 <Taneb> Screw it.
20:24:12 <Taneb> I'm making my own logic
20:24:49 <Taneb> AXIOMS:
20:25:16 <Taneb> Wait, p -> □p is an axiom anyway
20:25:30 <Taneb> ^^^ official
20:25:43 <Taneb> (in some modal logics)
20:26:35 <oerjan> disturbingly, intuitionistic modal logic is a red link in wp
20:27:15 <Taneb> Heck, in any normal modal logic, Necessity is an applicative
20:28:04 <oerjan> you don't want to use a classical logic as basis unless you have continuations
20:28:25 <Taneb> Pierce's law, right?
20:28:29 <oerjan> *-a
20:28:32 <oerjan> yes
20:35:00 <elliott> hmm, with Pierce's law as call/cc, you get LEM saying it's either true or false (doesn't matter which) and if you ever prove it wrong and prove a contradiction, that ends up calling the continuation and backtracking, right?
20:35:07 <elliott> or something
20:35:42 <oerjan> something like that
20:37:04 <Taneb> LEM's x | x, right?
20:37:08 <elliott> yes
20:38:02 <oerjan> callCC (\c -> Right (\x -> c (Left x)))
20:38:58 <oerjan> :t callCC (\c -> return $ Right (\x -> c (Left x)))
20:38:59 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadCont m) => m (Either a (a -> m b))
20:39:17 <elliott> aha
20:40:30 <elliott> > let lem = callCC (\c -> return $ Right (\x -> c (Left x))) in runCont (do { x <- lem; case x of Left a -> return a; Right f -> f (42 :: Int)) id
20:40:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
20:40:33 <elliott> ugh
20:40:35 <elliott> > let lem = callCC (\c -> return $ Right (\x -> c (Left x))) in runCont (do { x <- lem; case x of Left a -> return a; Right f -> f (42 :: Int) }) id
20:40:36 <lambdabot> 42
20:40:39 <elliott> neat
20:40:41 <elliott> i see how it works
20:41:04 <elliott> you go "aha, you think it's uninhabited, but I have an inhabitant *right here*!" and it steals your example and goes back in time and uses it as a proof of inhabitation
20:41:05 <elliott> cute
20:42:12 <zzo38> I have done something like this: class Classical x where { lem :: Either x (Not x); };
20:42:30 <oerjan> zzo38: yes i remember
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20:45:29 <oerjan> elliott: btw you don't need the {} if you have () around the do itself.
20:45:38 <elliott> really? neat
20:45:45 <elliott> was more for my own benefit, though :P
20:47:01 <oerjan> it's basically only used to find out where the do block ends, and if there's a delimiter just after that cannot be matched inside the do, then you don't need the {}
20:47:12 <elliott> right
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21:21:17 <Sgeo_> Codeeval supports Clojure
21:21:20 <Sgeo_> I am a happy person now
21:21:25 <Sgeo_> I just need to learn Clojure
21:23:20 <nortti_> isn't Clojure some kind of lisp ran inside JVM?
21:24:13 -!- quintopia has set topic: raking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:25:51 <oerjan> no, it can't be ran, only run
21:26:13 * oerjan hides under rock
21:27:46 <nortti_> wouldn't that rock crush you?
21:29:38 <oerjan> grbltn
21:29:48 <monqy> rest peacefully
21:30:45 <oerjan> why thank you, i need some peaceful rest
21:30:56 <quintopia> me too
21:30:58 * quintopia nap
21:31:39 <nortti_> grbltn?
21:33:28 <mroman> on a side note: Doesn't haskell break RT anyway?
21:33:33 <oerjan> gnt, brklfnd mgrvgrvladje
21:33:53 <mroman> unsafePerformIO
21:34:04 <kmc> aren't potatoes some kind of tuber?
21:34:06 <oerjan> mroman: guess why it has "unsafe"
21:34:31 <kmc> mroman: you just need to ignore unsafePerformIO whenever it is convenient to your argument to do so
21:35:21 <kmc> ditto any of a dozen other features
21:42:29 -!- ion has set topic: faking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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22:27:23 <nortti_> which one should I try to port to my own processor architecture: MINIX 1.5, MINIX 2 or 2.11BSD
22:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I am playing Human Revolution.
22:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I am crouching on a sofa on which two enemies are also sitting.
22:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Neither has noticed me.
22:36:21 <ion> I’ve bought the DE series, but haven’t got around to trying it yet.
22:36:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :3
22:37:14 <kmc> my favorite thing about original Deus Ex is that you could heal a shotgun wound to the chest by eating 50 bags of potato chips
22:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them looked up from the handheld game he was playing, glanced at me for a second, then looked back down.
22:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, ah, see, Jensen doesn't faff around with that; he just stuffs his face with Mars Bars so he can punch people.
22:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> WTF, no ghost bonus.
22:39:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm... pretty sure none of them saw me.
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22:45:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ion, DX is good, but it's probably best to start with HR because DX is very... 90s.
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23:01:39 <ion> phantom_hoover: I don’t really mind old games being… old. :-) I’ve been playing Fallout 1 recently.
23:01:55 <ion> kmc: Just like in real life!
23:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but FPSes are more reflexive than turn-based RPGs, so the quirks in the interface are more offputting.
23:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't use r for reload, for instance, unlike basically every other FPS today.
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23:29:46 <kmc> hm should i play Fallout n, n < 3?
23:29:57 <kmc> i sort of got one of them working in Wine once
23:32:55 <zzo38> If n=base of natural logatithms then yes try
23:39:01 <ion> AngryJoe Plays Steel Battalion Kinect http://youtu.be/VxKRBUzElTU?t=5m45s
23:39:35 <ion> kmc: I’ve liked it. The UI is rather horrible and the 640×480 resolution is annoying, but the game is good despite that.
23:41:30 <kmc> it's all turn-based right?
23:48:12 <ion> The combat is, yeah.
23:48:46 <ion> Hmm. I should try one of the resolution-enhancing patches again now that i’ve switched GPUs.
23:49:04 <ion> The last time anything beyond the default 640×480 was unplayably slow.
23:51:05 <kmc> do those come with high res textures and such?
23:51:30 <ion> Nope, you just get to see more than a tiny window to the map.
23:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "Since when was Sherlock Holmes a goddamn emo druggie obsessed with death?" -- a person
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> this is so funny if you've read the sherlock holmes stories
23:52:52 <ion> kmc: The “FIXT” patch for Fallout is recommended.
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