00:11:47 -!- elliott has joined.
00:58:18 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:15:21 -!- newsham has joined.
01:15:57 <newsham> esolang wiki has a page for a langauge called "lambda" but broken link :(
01:16:32 <newsham> wanted to mention i also wrote a small language I called "lambda" (i know.. join the club).. http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/
01:18:01 <shachaf> I think when there are multiple languages people make pages with the name of the author in parentheses.
01:18:13 <shachaf> E.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)
01:18:37 <shachaf> (This suggests that you should make a second, unrelated language called "lambda", to cause some real confusion.)
01:18:54 <newsham> or change my name to calculus
01:20:29 <shachaf> If you do that, people might think you're not discreet.
01:20:57 <shachaf> Anyway, ask elliott about the Rules of the Wiki.
01:24:27 <shachaf> The existing lambda page is very uninformative.
01:27:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
01:44:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:50:59 <Gregor> elliott: Where's news-ham?
01:52:16 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:54:33 <shachaf> All the cool zip codes start with 9, copumpkin.
01:55:21 <shachaf> More like wrong coasters, am I right?
01:55:42 <shachaf> Hawaiian names look a bit like Finnish names.
01:55:48 <shachaf> Must be all the doubled vowels.
01:57:10 <newsham> alphabet: aeiou hklmnpw` (thats not punctuation, thats a gloteral(sp?) stop)
01:59:07 <shachaf> English has glottal stops too, they're just not written.
01:59:12 <newsham> sorry, english is nto my first language
01:59:26 <shachaf> And I guess they're only at the beginnings of words, and often slurred.
01:59:43 <newsham> if we slur our words enough maybe we can be like the french
02:13:26 <elliott> Yes, we do disambiguation pages.
02:13:41 <elliott> Something like Lambda (newsham) or Lambda (yourrealnamehere) or whatever and moving the existing Lambda to a similar title would be ideal.
02:13:49 <elliott> Then create a page like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue.
02:14:12 <elliott> Our current [[Lambda]] page is bad.
02:14:31 <elliott> Seems like the Wayback Machine has the page, at least.
02:14:35 <newsham> authors usually add their language to yoru wiki?
02:15:00 <elliott> Yes. You think more than one person cares about the 5000th brainfuck cipher enough to write a page about it? :)
02:15:17 <elliott> (Not saying anything about your language! Just that the wiki would hardly thrive if we had no vanity.)
02:15:36 <elliott> Probably upwards of 80% of new pages are authors creating pages for their own languages.
02:15:51 <elliott> Of course, if you want someone else to write a page that's fine too. Might not happen, though.
02:16:34 <newsham> i'm shocked that the world hasnt taken to writing new phone apps using my interpeter
02:19:42 -!- itidus21 has joined.
02:21:16 <shachaf> elliott: Can you guess what newsham's real name is?
02:21:46 <shachaf> I do not want green eggs and ham. I do not want them, Newsh I am!
02:23:20 <newsham> will you eat them with a fox? will you eat them in a box?
02:32:16 <itidus21> wtf is firefox doing >.< ... i won't abandon it, but apparently it's unaware that it can chill out..
02:33:02 <itidus21> 1 page open, more or less standard html... and its using about 15% cpu..
02:33:03 <newsham> has anyone written meaningful prose that executes as an interesting bf program?
02:33:54 <shachaf> newsham: They play a BF competition game in here.
02:34:16 <shachaf> !bfjoust HELP I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING++++++[>.<>+>]+
02:34:26 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_HELP: 6.7
02:34:39 <shachaf> elliott can tell you the rules.
02:34:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
02:36:53 <itidus21> !bfjoust tidusthisisntagame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+<[+<]-[<-+[-]>+[-+]>-][+->+[-<-+>-[+<-]+>]]
02:36:56 <EgoBot> Score for itidus21_tidusthisisntagame: 2.1
02:37:33 <elliott> newsham: not quite core wars
02:37:41 <elliott> you have no access to the other program's source in any way, for instance
02:38:51 <itidus21> Fuck it, we'll use python 2. Theres no time for python 3. Fuck it.
02:39:41 <newsham> python 3 is the ipv6 of languages
02:40:00 <itidus21> this isn't actually the channel i intended to say that.
02:40:51 <newsham> iti: why not? py3 is an esoteric lang, no?
02:41:35 <itidus21> im not really using it to make code, rather to run other peoples code
02:42:36 <newsham> hmm. do esoteric language extensions count? sigfpe wrote a py preprocessor which adds monad comprehensions to python
02:43:35 <newsham> maybe thats too useful to be esolang
02:45:16 <itidus21> i think i'm officially barred from determining what's officially esoteric
02:48:55 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
02:57:38 <shachaf> Esolangness isn't just a bit.
02:57:43 <shachaf> There's a continuous scale.
02:57:55 <shachaf> It's measured in esolangstroms.
03:04:51 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
03:14:20 -!- augur has joined.
05:35:59 -!- Dovregubben has joined.
05:39:59 <HackEgo> Dovregubben: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:42:31 <Dovregubben> oh, I don't know any esoteric programming languages
05:42:45 <Dovregubben> I found this channel on a site about Conway's Game of Life
05:43:04 <Dovregubben> apparently there's used to be a #gameoflife channel, but there isn't one now
05:43:39 <elliott> Game of Life is pretty much on-topic here.
05:43:54 * Dovregubben is afraid the most esoteric programming language he knows is TI-99/4A BASIC
05:44:22 <itidus21> this guy is already more qualified than me
05:44:49 <Dovregubben> wait.... logo would be considered a language, right?
05:45:02 <elliott> logo is a programming language yes
05:47:34 <itidus21> Dovregubben: make yourself comfortable.. i think you're in the right place
06:00:54 <itidus21> i don't. but everyone else does
06:09:38 <Dovregubben> what qualifies something as a "methuselah?"
06:12:09 <Dovregubben> does it have to be composed only of one instance of a pattern?
06:13:23 <elliott> well it is a specific small configuration that takes many turns to stabilise
06:13:29 <elliott> "small" is of course subjective, as is "many"
06:13:42 <elliott> "More specifically, Martin Gardner defines them as patterns of fewer than ten live cells which take longer than 50 generations to stabilize"
06:14:08 <Dovregubben> I've been goofing around with a pattern of 12 cells that takes 1145 generations to stabilize
06:14:20 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Fred what a good pattern
06:14:25 <Dovregubben> I can't be the first person to discover it
06:14:41 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4610#p4610 nice
06:14:54 <elliott> Dovregubben: take a look at http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_long-lived_methuselahs or such, perhaps?
06:15:18 <Dovregubben> I'm thinking maybe because it's symmetrical it's not considered a methuselah?
06:15:20 <itidus21> The pattern is named after Dr. Fred Edison from the "Maniac Mansion" computer game, whose wife was also called "Edna". <-- heh
06:15:26 <elliott> I don't see why symmetrically would matter
06:34:43 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what elliott thinks of Tcl
06:36:54 <monqy> something about strings
06:39:33 <elliott> yes, strings are bad data structures
06:41:42 <Sgeo> Apparently, later implementations use good data structures behind the scenes
06:44:07 <elliott> yes because what what we need are low-level languages with high-level implementations
06:44:12 <elliott> my objection was clearly one of performance
06:47:48 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:03:37 <Dovregubben> we may have declared independence on July 4, 1776, but the rest of the world didn't recognize us as independent until years later (if at all)
08:00:32 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
08:03:42 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:07:17 <Sgeo> Tcl seems like it might be a good language for a codenomic
08:07:52 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split).
08:07:52 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split).
08:10:45 -!- newsham has joined.
08:10:46 -!- coppro has joined.
08:11:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5005
08:13:01 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split).
08:13:01 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split).
08:15:02 -!- newsham has joined.
08:15:02 -!- coppro has joined.
09:02:14 -!- atehwa has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
09:02:27 -!- atehwa has joined.
09:03:39 -!- Vorpal has joined.
09:20:14 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
09:30:29 -!- MoALTz has joined.
09:30:53 -!- john_metcalf has joined.
09:32:30 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:44:13 -!- ais523 has quit.
10:32:09 -!- yorick_ has joined.
10:36:12 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:33:30 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
11:49:31 -!- boily has joined.
12:15:30 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://youtu.be/8H7Qjp9itF8
12:28:02 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:28:11 -!- Dovregubben has joined.
12:37:27 -!- edwardk has joined.
12:41:58 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
12:45:01 -!- john_metcalf has left.
12:45:01 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf).
12:46:55 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick.
13:26:25 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:57:10 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:58:51 -!- Dovregubben has joined.
14:07:56 -!- john_metcalf has joined.
14:14:09 -!- john_metcalf has left.
14:49:41 -!- Sarajevo has joined.
14:59:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:47:10 -!- Sarajevo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:59:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:01:55 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
16:07:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:07:53 -!- itidus20 has joined.
16:11:07 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:16:48 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Mystery8anshee.
16:16:56 -!- Mystery8anshee has changed nick to copumpkin.
16:39:37 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:39:49 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
16:39:54 -!- elliott has joined.
16:40:25 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:29:08 -!- edwardk has joined.
17:42:14 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /list) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:42:36 <Taneb> No wait, /list lists channels?
17:43:43 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:48:44 -!- boily has joined.
18:27:24 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:30:52 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, danger rooming advice?
18:32:13 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:38:05 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:40:49 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
18:42:24 <lambdabot> Phantom__Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:41 <Taneb> Remembering how big they are and whether shields come before armour
18:43:07 <Phantom__Hoover> 5x1 with a door at the end, you give them armour, then weapons, then shield.
18:43:14 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:45:35 -!- MoALTz has joined.
18:47:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:48:42 -!- boily has joined.
18:49:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh also if you're DRing marksdorfs (for survivability) leave out the weapon altogether; they'll train in hammers rather than crossbows.
18:49:35 <Phantom__Hoover> <lambdabot> ion said 1d 1h 54m 29s ago: Plenty of people have dash cams.
18:49:51 <Phantom__Hoover> You mean they have cameras on their dashboard recording their daily drive?
18:51:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:51:31 <lambdabot> Makoryu says: Why should people have to change how they think when learning a language with a reputation for changing how you think?!
18:51:59 -!- nortti has joined.
18:53:10 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally.
18:53:59 <Taneb> Are there any Icelanders in here
18:55:20 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I'm watching my untrained army getting utterly trounced by a wombat
18:58:27 <ion> phantom__hoover: For instance, having more proof than just your word against the other’s in case of a dispute after a crash that wasn’t your fault.
19:00:30 * oerjan smells a norwegian troll here
19:01:00 <elliott> ion isn't trolling, I believe that kind of thing is common in several countries.
19:01:07 <oerjan> except why would a norwegian troll use comcast
19:01:15 <oerjan> elliott: no, i mean from looking at the logs
19:01:50 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-07-04.txt HTH
19:01:57 <elliott> who the fuck uses the .txt logs
19:02:14 <oerjan> i do, the text was too big on the others
19:02:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:02:21 <elliott> the font sizes are identical
19:03:12 -!- oonbotti has joined.
19:03:32 <oerjan> elliott: no they're not
19:03:49 <oerjan> of course the .txt probably doesn't set any
19:05:31 <Taneb> Little shop of horrors is on
19:05:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:07:23 <oerjan> when i set the formatted page to use small font size, it becomes about the same character size as the .txt, but still with a lot bigger spacing
19:07:24 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
19:07:43 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see any troll in the logs
19:07:45 <oerjan> elliott: any way i mean the troll starting with d and ending with ovregubben
19:07:53 <elliott> why do you think they are a troll
19:08:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:08:41 <oerjan> elliott: try googling it
19:25:30 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf).
19:30:32 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally.
19:31:38 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:34:57 <elliott> the train-skill-by-using system
19:37:02 <Phantom__Hoover> What does that have to do with victory? Or indeed dancing?
19:37:48 <elliott> "victory dancing" is the art of repeatedly "dancing" a trivial victory to train a skill
19:37:58 <elliott> for instance killing plants repeatedly to train a fighting skill
19:41:52 <Phantom__Hoover> Anyway DRs are an example of the system being downright terribly-balanced, so that's hardly the whole of it.
19:55:57 -!- boily has joined.
19:57:59 <ion> Internet Scam Alert: Most "Kickstarter" Projects Just Useless Crap http://youtu.be/qqZ65pUQxyQ
20:14:52 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: bbl).
20:17:45 <olsner> no, they found a particle that might be like higgs
20:18:00 <olsner> ... with high enough probability to publicly say that they might have found it
20:19:03 <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:30 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:38 <HackEgo> 847) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:41 <oerjan> LET THAT BE A LESSON TO ALL
20:20:01 <olsner> let that be printed in comic sans as a lesson to all
20:20:11 <oerjan> but then most won't learn it!
20:48:08 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, FWIW the particle is very like the Higgs, apparently.
20:52:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]).
20:53:09 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean a biscuit with 'tea' IN THE NAME that dissolves as soon as it even gets NEAR tea.
20:53:26 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely unlike tea. and the higgs boson.
20:54:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:55:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:58:17 <elliott> <Phantom__Hoover> Rich Teas are the worst thing ever.
20:58:20 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
20:59:57 <oerjan> he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he
21:07:11 * oerjan strictly throws Phantom__Hoover into the hummus
21:08:57 <itidus21> A flea and a fly in a flue, were trapped and knew not what to do,
21:09:03 <itidus21> 'Let us flee', said the fly, 'Let us fly', said the flea, so they flew through a flaw in the flue.
21:13:52 -!- elliott has joined.
21:13:52 <elliott> 20:59:57: <oerjan> he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he
21:13:59 <elliott> It is not boring, Phantom__Hoover is just wrong and abominable scum.
21:14:05 -!- elliott has left ("RICH TEA LYF").
21:14:41 <oerjan> ah, it was something immensely important and british. sorry for the misunderstanding.
21:14:42 <Phantom__Hoover> Might I ask you your opinions of digestives whilst you logread?
21:15:35 <olsner> I love digestives, if you mean the crackers
21:15:52 <olsner> but I pronounce it in Swedish, for hysterical raisins
21:16:16 <oerjan> vad digestiva dom är(o)
21:17:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:17:59 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, must you *insist* on making the channel's topic a jab against one of its members?
21:18:03 * olsner proudly joins the channel ruining crew
21:18:25 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: no, i'm diluting by expansion
21:20:05 <itidus21> i like biscuits with cream filling
21:20:05 <oerjan> `pastelogs ruining this channel
21:20:41 <oerjan> `pastelogs ruining this channel
21:20:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4438
21:21:47 <itidus21> but .. the log stands to reason
21:22:21 <itidus21> i'm sure it's more complicated story than tat
21:24:58 <oerjan> it seemed reasonable in context
21:27:06 <itidus21> i just thought there was more to it
21:29:57 <itidus21> oerjan: 20 years from now you will miss the year 2012
21:31:26 <itidus21> the things we complain about now, will seem so great compared to what the future has in store
21:32:26 <oerjan> ...i think you are overdoing negativity now.
21:32:59 <oerjan> DON'T BLOODY MAKE UP MORE OF IT
21:34:12 <itidus21> Current projections show a continued increase in population (but a steady decline in the population growth rate), with the global population expected to reach between 7.5 and 10.5 billion by 2050 -- 7.5billion in 2050.. does this data tell me ANYTHING?
21:35:21 <itidus21> it basically says that population is likely to not decrease, and not likely to increase more than 3 billion
21:35:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe if you'd actually try to think for once rather than exposit at length your inability to comprehend anything that isn't handed to you on a platter you could conclude something.
21:36:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Keep it up and you might move beyond an effective mental age of 10.
21:36:06 <itidus21> i bet they actually spent money to reach that data
21:36:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Of course they fucking spent money it's immensely valuable information would you please shut up for once in your life.
21:40:19 <Vorpal> yay there is no a vlc version for android
21:41:24 <Phantom__Hoover> This is futile, that basically only makes sense to people who know something of Scottish slang.
21:42:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, or who read any Discworld book with the Nac Mac Feegle in it.
21:42:43 <nortti> I am still waiting my vlc for mac os 9
21:43:20 <Vorpal> I want a vlc version for System 7
21:43:24 <nortti> and yes. but my ppc mac broke
21:43:44 <nortti> vlc for system 6 and macminix 1.5
21:44:01 <Vorpal> oh and the beta is currently only for ARMv7 CPUs with Neon (works for me!), though more variants are apparently coming soon
21:44:30 <nortti> by the way does vlc work with minix 2?
21:45:29 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I have an OS 9 laptop somewhere, not really using it unless I get nostalgic
21:45:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
21:45:45 <Vorpal> for the old Spiderweb Software and Ambrosia games.
21:45:56 <nortti> Vorpal: have you heard of Classilla
21:46:11 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: my dumpster machine has x86 cpu
21:46:24 <Vorpal> nortti, hey you could emulate OS 9
21:46:32 <Vorpal> though it is very buggy
21:46:51 <nortti> but not very fast and it would require me using X
21:47:33 <Vorpal> it is buggy, doesn't work for all programs, requires mmap_min_addr=0 to run, and is rather messy to compile. Oh and getting hold of the source of it was hard too
21:47:38 <Vorpal> since the project is basically dead
21:47:52 <Vorpal> it works for emulating Avernum 1 and Avernum 2 though (sadly not Avernum 3 and later)
21:48:30 <nortti> Mac OS 9 with irc client with name I cannot remember right now, Classilla, iCab 3.0.5 and Python 2.3 is actually pretty decent
21:48:43 <Vorpal> emulating System 7 on 68k hardware is much more stable
21:48:50 <Vorpal> basiliskII can do that
21:49:27 <nortti> I can believe. I have emulated system 6 on mac classic before and it was pretty stable
21:49:43 <Vorpal> anyway a core 2 Duo at 2.26 G is more than enough to emulate classic mac os. (System 7 boots in less than a second, OS 9 takes a few seconds, but most seem to be spent waiting for some network IO thingy or such)
21:50:06 <nortti> yeah. I have 700MHz pentium III....
21:50:22 <Vorpal> nortti, no I meant emulating system 7 on 68k hardware, with the emulator running on x86
21:50:28 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:50:38 <Vorpal> I haven't emulated system 7 on 68k, that would be silly
21:51:05 <nortti> erm. I meant running sys6 on emulated mac classic on ppc mac
21:51:16 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway BasiliskII (which is also a PITA to compile) might work on your CPU
21:51:39 <Vorpal> no idea if sheepshaver will work
21:52:14 <nortti> Vorpal: did you know that you can actually use mini vmac on m68k macs and with it emulate sys7 m68k machine on sys7 m68k machine=
21:52:18 <Vorpal> but setting it up is a an absolute PITA (and of course requires finding an OS 9 install cd image somewhere, wasn't terribly hard, there was a site that specialised in classic mac os abandonware)
21:52:21 <Vorpal> (forgot the name of it)
21:52:52 <Vorpal> nortti, hm? I thought mini vmac only did up to system 6?
21:53:02 <Vorpal> anyway the software I'm interested in is PPC
21:53:06 <Vorpal> so sheepshaver it is for me
21:53:20 <nortti> I have ran sys 7.0 under mini vMac
21:53:35 <nortti> don't know about anything newer
21:53:40 <Vorpal> I only wish I could get Escape Velocity or Escape Velocity Override working under emulation
21:53:44 <Vorpal> those games were awesome
21:54:13 <Vorpal> and of course, the avernum series is stellar
21:55:47 <nortti> umh. basilishII fails x11 check
21:56:07 <nortti> I do actually currently have x11 installed'
21:56:49 <Vorpal> nortti, maybe not the development headers?
21:56:59 <Vorpal> x11 have a lot of different packages for that
21:57:10 <Vorpal> if you mean configure failed?
21:57:14 <Vorpal> config.log should help
21:58:04 <Vorpal> nortti, hm my ~/src/mac contains a debug build of libsdl. Yeah, it can be annoying to get working... XD
21:58:33 <Vorpal> nortti, that was for sheepshaver though
21:58:41 <Vorpal> oh looks like I checked SheepShaver out from CVS?
21:59:13 <Vorpal> nortti, if you are interested in SheepSaver this might be useful: :pserver:firstname.lastname@example.org:/home/cvs/cebix
21:59:27 <nortti> when my iBook g4 still worked I had pretty much built complete netbsd system under ~/src
21:59:54 <Vorpal> nortti, g4? That thing was way more powerful than your current computer
22:00:08 <Vorpal> I have a first model ibook g3
22:00:22 <Vorpal> oh and the power connector is glitchy
22:00:38 <Vorpal> so you better sit very still when using that computer
22:00:39 <nortti> how much RAM? what OS?
22:01:15 <nortti> ok. let me quess. it has Mac OS 9?
22:01:17 <Vorpal> nortti, OS 9 (came with OS 8.6 iirc, but my dad got an imac SE at the same time, that came with an OS 9 disc, so I used that to upgrade)
22:01:41 <Vorpal> as for RAM, 32 MB built in, 32 MB added
22:01:47 <Vorpal> so a whopping total of 64 MB!
22:02:07 <nortti> same amount of ram as I now have
22:02:43 <Vorpal> nortti, which desktop environment do you use?
22:02:55 <Vorpal> or just a simple window manager?
22:03:05 <nortti> I don't use x11. I use links2 -g amd mplayer fbdev
22:04:12 <Vorpal> nortti, you need x11 for basiliskII though
22:04:22 <Vorpal> anyway sheepshaver is going to strain your RAM
22:04:24 <nortti> yes. I have it installed
22:04:26 <Vorpal> your CPU is probably fine
22:05:06 <nortti> I sometimes have to use x11 (hv3, netsurf, pygame) and then I either use wwm or mwm
22:06:10 <nortti> yes. pygame uses sdl and requires x11
22:06:12 <itidus21> the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended
22:06:49 <itidus21> i think the most important thing is don't get 3.x
22:07:07 <Vorpal> <itidus21> the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended <-- uh?
22:07:20 <Vorpal> anyway python 2.7 should be fine then
22:07:29 <Vorpal> 3.x is very different from 2.x
22:07:40 <Vorpal> you need to port all but trivial programs
22:07:56 <Vorpal> usually not too hard to port
22:08:03 <itidus21> i am under the impression that 2.7 might be too far
22:08:13 <itidus21> but i am new to the python world
22:08:13 <Vorpal> unless you are using the C API
22:08:26 <nortti> and at least on windows pygame is not thread safe. when I programmed for it I made my own game engine with corountine scheduler as pygame froze wen I tried to use threads :P
22:08:29 <Vorpal> that can be a lot of work to port (I have first hand experience of that)
22:09:13 <nortti> isn't there a small program for autonmaticaly converting python 2 to python 3?
22:09:29 <Vorpal> nortti, is python ever thread safe?
22:09:39 <Vorpal> it uses a fucking global lock for the entire interpreter
22:09:54 <itidus21> theres a lot of fun little games made for python 2.x
22:09:58 <Vorpal> all you can do is make some pure-C routines drop that lock while doing IO tasks and such
22:10:12 <Vorpal> so python is in effect single threaded
22:10:46 <nortti> has anybody ever got grail (pure python web browser) to work?
22:11:00 <Vorpal> pure python web browser? Insane
22:11:30 <nortti> I know. and it is from the python 2.0 era
22:11:35 <Vorpal> python itself isn't slow. PyPy is like several times faster than CPython
22:11:42 <Vorpal> however, PyPy is still slow
22:11:43 <olsner> might as well use mod_rewrite to render the page into a data: png image
22:11:50 <Vorpal> compared to something like cython
22:12:30 <Vorpal> olsner, to be fair, mod_rewrite is extremely suited to string rewriting, I'm not sure it would perform as good at a task like this
22:13:33 <Vorpal> olsner, actually I'm sure it wouldn't
22:13:43 <Vorpal> but I don't have hard evidence to back up that statement
22:13:51 <Vorpal> (I haven't tested after all)
22:15:19 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway you can see an order of magnitude speed up using cython instead of cpython
22:15:25 <Vorpal> at least for some use cases
22:15:47 <olsner> oh, I thought cython was a misspelling of cpython
22:17:00 <Vorpal> olsner, we had a lab at university to implement a reversi AI, the course used python. I implemented a pure python version, it managed to get to 5 ply (using alpha-beta pruning). Then I made a cython version and easily got to 8 ply on the same machine. (There were some limits on how long it was allowed to think about a move, iirc 15 seconds)
22:17:29 <Vorpal> a pure C version would probably have performed slightly better than that even (since some python API calls remained)
22:17:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, a half-move
22:17:50 <Vorpal> it is a term used in reversi AIs
22:18:15 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, so 2 ply means the AI is looking ahead by one move by itself, and one move by the opponent
22:18:39 <Vorpal> I have no idea who invented the word ply for that
22:20:58 <Vorpal> anyways the calls that remained were fairly expensive, some accesses of a python dict iirc. A 2D C array would have been sufficient and worked well, but that would have meant rewriting the teacher-provided GUI code
22:22:04 <Vorpal> (also it would have involved manual memory management)
23:31:55 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:43:26 <nortti_> unix v7 is not very well suitable for daily use
23:46:16 <itidus21> i interpret that as meaning it's best for non-interactive apps like servers
23:47:12 <nortti_> well maybe. it is pretty light
23:47:18 -!- kallisti has joined.
23:47:39 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
23:49:56 <oerjan> WE'RE BEING SILENT HERE
23:50:14 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
23:50:57 <kallisti> `words 20 # hello does this still work?
23:51:03 <HackEgo> ferrito sciallcifor afl gee nov sorthalfp bearlin euesdi expoemlo preconf koele unglebo tobalmi pion pen quolicalloq guidi maufi johan fliously
23:54:21 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/words: a /usr/bin/perl script text executable
23:54:58 <nortti_> `run cat `which words` | paste
23:55:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27827
23:55:17 <HackEgo> cat: paste: Is a directory
23:55:20 <HackEgo> cat: `which paste`: No such file or directory
23:55:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
23:56:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9578
23:56:11 <kallisti> nortti_: USELESS USE OF CAT POLICE ACTIVATE.
23:57:14 <nortti_> ok. I also grep the cat sometimes
23:58:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:58:24 <oerjan> you can also look it up in the repository
23:59:41 <oerjan> `run url `which words`
23:59:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/words