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01:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> kwertii, you probably want to fix your client and/or connection.
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01:34:02 <Gregor> "Reässuring" with a diaeresis mark, yes/yes?
01:39:23 <Gregor> How the heck do you pronounce "really" X-D
01:41:21 <shachaf> Gregor: Would you spell "subordinate" with one?
01:49:28 <oerjan> Gregor: straïght forward, of coürse
01:50:01 <Gregor> shachaf: There's no diaeresis in subordinate... heck, there aren't even two vowels in a row, so there's not even the possibility of a diaeresis.
01:50:21 <shachaf> I think of a diaeresis on a vowel as meaning something like a glottal stop.
01:50:33 <Gregor> ... well, then you think of it wrong...
01:51:23 <shachaf> True, it's not quite a glottal stop.
01:51:28 <shachaf> But it's something pretty close...
01:51:35 <pikhq_> By which you mean "not even slightly".
01:51:42 <oerjan> use diäereses however yoü want, yoü have poetic license
01:51:58 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh you, not using a diaeresis mark on the ONLY diaeresis in that sentence.
01:52:17 <shachaf> How would you differentiate "su-bor-din" with "sub-or-din"?
01:52:25 <shachaf> I guess that's not what a diaeresis is.
01:52:47 <pikhq_> If it were a glottal stop, it'd parse as "t" in many accents.
01:52:51 <oerjan> Gregor: actually i'm not sure aboüt the first ä
01:53:09 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, that one's a bit... odd.
01:53:29 <Gregor> Di-aeresis? Certainly it's not diägram, is it?
01:53:34 <shachaf> pikhq_: Glottal stops have nothing to do with 't's.
01:54:01 <shachaf> There are some accents that pronounce 't' as glottal stop in some words, but those aren't that common, I think.
01:54:09 <Gregor> Virtually every accent.
01:54:22 <shachaf> You people must mean a different thing than I do by "glottal stop".
01:54:56 <pikhq_> I'm referring to IPA ʔ
01:54:57 <Gregor> I don't know where you're from, but if it's in the Americas, then you're lying or don't know what a glottal stop is.
01:55:29 <shachaf> "It is called the glottal stop because the technical term for the gap between the vocal folds, which is closed up in the production of this sound, is the glottis."
01:55:29 <oerjan> Gregor: actually i'm surprised to see diäeresis seems to have the second syllable stressed, i thoüght it was the third
01:55:39 <shachaf> I don't think you're closing your glottis when you say "fatten".
01:56:08 <Gregor> shachaf: You are if you're pronouncing it with a General American accent.
01:57:31 <shachaf> Gregor: I'm thinking of the Hebrew letter "aleph".
01:57:50 <oerjan> possibly "fatten" has two articulation points for the tt?
01:57:53 <pikhq_> You also pronounce 't' glottally with many words in UK English, though which ones get done that way are different.
01:58:54 <pikhq_> shachaf: "In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the letter either represents a glottal stop ([ʔ]) or indicates a hiatus (the separation of two adjacent vowels into distinct syllables with no intervening consonant)."
01:59:07 <pikhq_> So, apparently Hebrew aleph is glottal stop and diaresis.
01:59:10 <shachaf> pikhq_: Right, that's just people slurring it together.
01:59:21 <shachaf> If you asked them to be all formal about it they'd probably pronounce the glottal stop.
01:59:31 <pikhq_> The two are different phenomena in English.
02:01:42 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_consonant
02:05:21 <pikhq_> oerjan: It's more that US English has gained a tendency to turn 't' into a glottal stop when certain vowels are between it and 'n'.
02:09:02 <oerjan> well yeah, i just wondered if there were intermediate cases
02:09:29 <zzo38> I have made five .NSF musics, although all of them are covers so far.
02:09:50 <zzo38> (One of them is cover of some music that originally had no harmony, so I added some.)
02:18:37 <zzo38> Use of channels (and order of writing): prelude.mml=AB winter.mml=ABC cv_bsnes.mml=ABCD wizardry.mml=ABDMN cvheven.mml=DGHIJKL
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02:27:09 <kallisti> isn't a glottal stop just like...
02:27:23 <kallisti> where you close off your vocal tract.
02:28:06 <kallisti> then yeah, we do that with our t's
02:28:21 <kallisti> either that or make a "d" sound.
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03:01:49 <zzo38> Gregor: Have you written music recently? What software did you use?
03:02:40 <pikhq_> kallisti: That is a glottal stop, yes.
03:02:51 <pikhq_> kallisti: It's where you stop and close the glottis.
03:06:00 <zzo38> madbr: Are you the guy who told me before if you have made the .NSF musics?
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03:15:16 <zzo38> I like all of them (they are the ones I like best) except for the one with smoke weed
03:15:37 <zzo38> I have written five .NSF musics so far although these five all of them covers, so far.
03:16:20 <zzo38> One was from a ZZT game, and I have added the harmony instead of having the melody only
03:16:52 <zzo38> Today I have made the Caverns of Zeux heaven music using DGHIJKL channels
03:17:18 <zzo38> (D=2A03 noise channel, GHIJKL=VRC7 channel)
03:20:04 <zzo38> This is first time I have used VRC7 channel.
03:21:04 <zzo38> Do you not use MML? Well, some people like it and others hate it, use whatever you prefer
03:21:16 <madbr> I use impulse tracker + converters :D
03:21:29 <madbr> most other tracker dudes have moved to famitracker though
03:21:53 <zzo38> Well, I suppose IT+convert can work too if you want.
03:22:00 <zzo38> My brother uses FamiTracker.
03:22:30 <zzo38> I am in the process of writing a program called ITMCK.
03:25:14 <madbr> what does that do? :D
03:26:17 <zzo38> It is a program to make a .IT file.
03:26:34 <zzo38> http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git
03:27:21 * kallisti has been contemplating the design of a graphical DSP system for Haskell
03:27:43 <kallisti> similar in concept to things like MAX/MSP and pure-data
03:27:44 <zzo38> madbr: It is the program to compile MML to .IT
03:28:59 <zzo38> kallisti: I have been thinking of use of Penrose tensor diagrams to represent morphisms in tensor categories satisfying certain additional laws (certain things can be done in the diagram depending on what features the category has, too)
03:30:21 <zzo38> madbr: Well, Impulse Tracker is DOS only and I don't like programs like Modplug Tracker and so on to write music either, so I want to write the new one which is better. For now looking at source-codes and documentation you might try to understand a few things. Do you like the formatting of the documentation so far?
03:31:25 <madbr> ther's still schism tracker and chibi tracker
03:31:42 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I know about those ones too; I prefer MML
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03:32:43 <kallisti> zzo38: does this have anything to do with DSP?
03:33:37 <kallisti> this might be a weird question
03:33:45 <kallisti> does anyone have a identity from the UK I can borrow?
03:34:04 <kallisti> OVH is giving out free servers with shit specs for people in the UK.
03:34:53 <zzo38> ITMCK even support customize scale (which is something OpenMPT supports but only for its own format), and customize temperament (also something OpenMPT supports for its own format; ITMCK emulate it by making multiple sample headings with varying C5speed)
03:34:55 <kallisti> oh looks like they're free ones in the US too
03:35:06 <zzo38> kallisti: I have used PureData.
03:35:30 <kallisti> zzo38: I found it a neat concept. but anything marginally complex becomes slow and a mass of lines and boxes.
03:35:37 <kallisti> which is why it would be nice to use Haskell instead of "subpatches"
03:35:44 <kallisti> but also have subpatches as well
03:36:00 <zzo38> If that is what you like.
03:37:39 <zzo38> I believe you can have tensor diagrams for Haskell's (->) category including lines crossing
03:38:19 <zzo38> I think one law that must be required to make the tensor diagrams for a category would be that (***) and (.) abide (a term I read in some of Edward Kmett's messages)
03:38:44 <zzo38> Although that isn't enough to allow the lines to cross
03:42:38 <madbr> I like how sequencers like Reaper organize stuff in tracks
03:42:58 <madbr> can still do any graph but they're a lot easier to edit
03:43:13 <madbr> Reaper works something like this:
03:43:22 <madbr> each track has a stack of effects
03:44:16 <madbr> you can also do signal sends from one track's output to another track's input
03:44:31 <madbr> and you can also add folder tracks that contain other tracks
03:44:50 <madbr> if you put effects on the folder track, they are applied after mixing all the tracks in the folder
03:45:12 <madbr> plus you can add as many channels as you want to any track
03:45:31 <madbr> and configure your effects to use this or that channel for processing
03:45:44 <madbr> between all of that you can do everything
03:48:35 <madbr> common cases (layering a bunch of synth VSTs then putting on a ton of effects) are easy to do :D
03:52:57 <zzo38> kallisti: Maybe you could represent them as a tensor category with two prime objects
03:59:36 <madbr> tensor? prime objects?? :o
04:02:54 <zzo38> Do you know about category theory?
04:03:10 <zzo38> (I don't think "prime objects" is the standard term but I don't know if there is any so I use this)
04:06:37 <madbr> I'm more of a c++ guy tbh, haven't gotten into the haskell cult yet :D
04:07:46 <pikhq> Man, grow some taste. :P
04:08:34 <madbr> language I've probably done the second most of is ARM assembly :D
04:10:50 <madbr> a pretty nice architecture
04:19:21 <zzo38> You don't have to program in Haskell to know category theory, or vice versa.
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05:21:26 <madbr> I'm toying with the idea of a processor with some kind of "trace" mode for fast parallelized execution of high computation loops
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06:00:20 <zzo38> How would you expect it to work?
06:01:02 <madbr> take a loop that can be optimized
06:01:35 <madbr> for(int i=0; i<nbSample; i++, mVol += mRamp, mPos += mFreq)
06:01:35 <madbr> mix[i] += ((sample[mPos>>16] + (((sample[(mPos>>16)+1] - sample[mPos>>16])*(mPos&0xffff))>>16))*mVol) >> 16;
06:01:47 <madbr> (that's linear interpolated sample mixing)
06:04:10 <madbr> after the first pass of compilation, it looks something like this:
06:04:24 <madbr> if i>=nbSamples :done
06:04:25 <madbr> t3 = s16[sample + t2*2]
06:04:26 <madbr> t5 = s16[sample + t4*2]
06:04:32 <madbr> t7 = mPos & 0xffff
06:04:34 <madbr> t14 = mVol + mRamp
06:04:44 <madbr> t15 = mPos + mFreq
06:04:44 <madbr> if $i>=nbSamples :loop
06:05:27 <madbr> (using the model where every calculation or variable write is to a new variable)
06:06:20 <zzo38> LLVM does something like that, I think. And I can understand how you can parallelize it when the order is not relevant.
06:07:36 <madbr> well, essentially you have to figure out when each loop iteration is independent
06:07:53 <madbr> if that happens you are in business
06:08:22 <madbr> then you can compile it more or less directly to a series of RISC operations
06:08:56 <madbr> the idea is that instead of having one execution unit and asign it a different operation on every cycle
06:09:34 <madbr> have a bunch of execution units and assign each operation to a new different unit
06:10:08 <madbr> so first operation t1 = [mix + i*4] gets assigned to first unit
06:10:21 <madbr> t2 = mPos >> 16 gets assigned to second unit
06:11:05 <madbr> and keep the same unit executing the same op over and over for each successive cycle
06:15:30 <zzo38> Yes I can understand that.
06:17:00 <madbr> if you can autounroll the increments you can do 2 or 4 loops per cycle
06:27:36 <soundnfury> It sounds like you've basically reinvented VLIW
06:28:24 <madbr> except VLIW is a bunch of exploding designs that never took off :D
06:28:48 <soundnfury> and you think yours will be any different?
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06:30:00 <madbr> trying to find a way to avoid the "intel failed design" effect :D
06:31:34 <madbr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860
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06:32:37 <madbr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i960 (actually a moderate success I guess)
06:34:58 <madbr> though Itanic didn't really have all that many execution units
06:40:07 <soundnfury> what's really needed, because compile-time scheduling is impossible in principle to get right, is a way for the compiled binary to have, not lists, but DAGs of instructions
06:40:30 <soundnfury> so that the compiler can tell the scheduler /precisely/ what its ordering constraints are
06:41:10 <soundnfury> then the chip can use as much parallelism as the DAG will allow (if it has enough units). But it would require a more complex scheduler
06:41:30 <soundnfury> though less complex than the ones on modern CISC chips that try to work out for themselves what the constraints are :S
06:43:39 <madbr> you could have a layer based approach
06:43:57 <madbr> have the compiler figure out all the first layer instructions in a loop
06:44:11 <madbr> (the ones that can be computed on first cycle)
06:44:18 <madbr> then do layer 2, 3 etc
06:44:27 <madbr> but then that doesn't deal with variable latency
06:44:58 <soundnfury> the compiler /can't/ figure out the scheduling, precisely because of variable latency
06:46:03 <madbr> two cases here would be multiply, and memory loads
06:46:03 <soundnfury> it has to effectively communicate a set of ordering constraints; the minimal such is the DAG, the maximal such is a list of single instructions to be executed serially (the 'classic' architecture, from the olden days)
06:46:33 <madbr> multiply is constant but still relatively long and changes from cpu generation to cpu generation
06:46:50 <madbr> (can go up - see early pentium II)
06:47:32 <madbr> memory load is effectively unpredictable
06:51:25 <madbr> Still, I do math heavy code and I'm slightly disappointed at the throughputs in very recent cpus :D
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06:56:28 <madbr> it feels like the designs are geared to database software and other branch/access heavy shit
06:57:14 <soundnfury> well, if you're doing anything both math heavy and parallelisable, get some FPGAs
06:57:43 <madbr> DSPs are dead (cpus are faster)
06:58:14 <madbr> and nobody uses FPGAs, application specific hardware is mostly dead for sound
06:59:17 <madbr> there are some hardware DSP cards for the pro market
06:59:22 <madbr> they are essentially dongles
07:00:26 <fizzie> There's a DSP core in my phone, they can't be dead.
07:00:53 <fizzie> As for math-heavy and parallelisable code, doesn't everyone do that kind of stuff on GPUs nowadays?
07:01:06 <madbr> for doing FFT on phone signals DSPs makes sense
07:01:16 <madbr> GPUs have too high latency
07:01:24 <madbr> and not enough flexible execution
07:01:36 <madbr> (no feedback, bastards)
07:01:43 <fizzie> The phone uses the DSP for e.g. hardware-accelerated MP3 decoding. (And some video formats.)
07:01:56 <madbr> makes sense on old phones
07:02:14 <madbr> for recent IPhones I'm not sure why they still use the DSP
07:02:21 <madbr> probably power conservation
07:02:43 <fizzie> It's not exactly old. And I think TI's to-be-released OMAP5 platform still includes a general-purpose DSP core, despite them having added all kinds of special-purpose video/media accelerator things.
07:02:50 <madbr> but it makes no sense to use the DSP in game code
07:03:45 <madbr> too platform specific and you rarely have any control over it
07:04:12 <madbr> so of course the firmware sound mixer does something wrong and you have to reimplement it all in software anyways
07:04:56 <fizzie> Yes, well, that much is of course true. (Related example: the DSP-accelerated JPG encoder used by the phone's camera app has a hardcoded JPG quality level; if you want to change it, it needs to fall back to the CPU implementation.)
07:05:31 <madbr> good luck using the iphone's mp3 decode for game music
07:06:31 <madbr> you're never going to have a sample accurate loop or crossfade
07:07:20 <madbr> and once a phone call plus an alarm clock happen chances are apple's media server gets confused and crashed
07:11:03 <fizzie> There was a guy doing general sound recognition (environmental events; door knocking and fire alarms and phone ringing and things like that; it was for a box they sell to hotels that they can have deaf-proof houses without having to wire up a system with indicator lights to all those things) on FPGAs, he gave a talk at our place.
07:11:57 <madbr> yeah that's a different market
07:12:25 <fizzie> And our DSP course had a couple of http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/index.shtml 's as platforms, I've always wondered whether many people have actually bought that thing to do music.
07:12:31 <madbr> and I guess ARM systems on a chip aren't quite monstruously fast/low power enough for that yet
07:12:39 <madbr> nobody has a chameleon :D
07:13:17 <madbr> same thing happened to creamware
07:13:50 <madbr> even hardware synths are losing their shine
07:16:30 <madbr> 3d cards are doing ok but that's in part because CPUs are terrible at bilinear
07:16:52 <madbr> and gfx doesn't have too much pixel-to-pixel dependency
07:21:49 <fizzie> Those do get used for general-purpose calculations too a lot, though. Our cluster recently acquired 8 nodes with 2x Tesla M2090 cards, and from what I hear with something like MATLAB+GPUmat you can run your giant matrix multiplications very easily very fast on those. (That's of course all about throughput, not about latency.)
07:25:15 <madbr> sound uses a lot of recursive filters, that's the catch with that one in particular
07:25:28 <madbr> sample to sample latency
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07:57:45 <itidus21> well i think that when presented with a finite choice of processors, then it is possible to eventually determine which is the best for your type of work
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10:12:57 <nortti> "This is true in all countries that I know except for North Korea, Iran and United Kingdom"
10:19:02 <itidus21> i like neal stephenson.. because he is making a realistic sword fighting sim via kickstarter crowdsourcing, but i had only vaguely heard of him before
10:19:51 <itidus21> but on wikipedia he seems really cool
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10:35:54 <soundnfury> that's the same neal stephenson who wrote In The Beginning Was The Command Line, right?
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12:05:50 <sunshinehappy> how about an anarchist programming language: Absolutely no control structures
12:09:17 <itidus21> i have an idea for a programming language
12:10:31 <itidus21> get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program
12:10:46 <itidus21> and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output
12:11:05 <itidus21> and, optionally prompting you for input
12:12:02 <itidus21> x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation
12:12:13 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat similar to IRP.
12:12:31 <fizzie> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP)
12:15:46 <itidus21> 99 bottles fits the description pretty close though
12:17:11 <itidus21> it's a really strange feeling to say:
12:17:52 <itidus21> i have an idea for a programming language; related to that; get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program; and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output; and, optionally prompting you for input; x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation
12:18:28 <itidus21> and get a reply like "It sounds similar to an existant esolang"
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12:36:44 <soundnfury> sunshinehappy: Eniuq doesn't have control structures (if by that you mean flow control)
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12:58:14 <mroman> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1801473/japanese-ascii-code
13:00:45 <mroman> I thought I heard pretty much every dumb question related to programming.
13:01:00 <mroman> but that just tops everything I've ever seen.
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13:06:49 <nortti> I am getting a small problem with my minidistro. I have put "nameserver 8.8.8.8" in /etc/resolv.conf but it still only finds host when I use ip address instead of address
13:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, why, because they confused ASCII with character code?
13:20:57 <Vorpal> nortti, I guess dns lookup is broken?
13:24:49 <Vorpal> nortti, try strace on nslookup google.com or something?
13:25:12 <nortti> well I don't have strace or nslookup
13:25:25 <Vorpal> some command line dns resolver
13:25:51 <nortti> no. unless toybox or sash includes one of those
13:25:53 <Vorpal> anyway strace is useful for debugging, if you are trying to keep the distro as small as possible just remove strace when you are done creating the thing
13:26:52 <Vorpal> nortti, or just write a simple C program that tries to look up a hostname and run that under gdb
13:27:12 <nortti> well I don't have gdb.
13:27:20 <Vorpal> nortti, whatever debugger you have then?
13:27:29 <Lumpio-> Having a debugger would make it too easy!
13:27:38 <Lumpio-> People didn't have debuggers as advanced as gdb back in teh day!
13:27:38 <nortti> I have no debugger on that distro
13:28:05 <nortti> also I mostöy still use so called printf debugging
13:28:47 <Vorpal> anyway strace is likely better here, since you want to see what the libc does
13:29:13 <nortti> yeah. I am trying to integrate it to build system
13:30:41 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the intended use case for this distro?
13:31:25 <nortti> be as small as possible
13:31:34 <Vorpal> nortti, why? Embedded?
13:32:39 <itidus21> i am proud of my minimal knowlege of japanese..
13:32:41 <nortti> also building userland binaries that don't depend on dynamic libraries.
13:32:54 <Vorpal> nortti, statically linked
13:33:01 <Vorpal> strace just traces system calls
13:33:24 <Vorpal> nortti, afaik strace uses ptrace to do it (just like gdb)
13:33:29 <Vorpal> so that should work fine
13:34:40 <itidus21> the funny thing to me about acronyms like ASCII and ANSI is the use of the term america to refer to the united states
13:35:04 <Vorpal> US is very self-centred
13:35:12 <nortti> lzma doesn't want to extract strace-4.7.tar.xz
13:35:28 <Vorpal> xz is like lzma version 2
13:35:55 <itidus21> although ASCII might be representative of all of north and south america, somehow, i doubt it :D
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13:36:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, they all like to call things "national", like "national institute of whatever"
13:36:49 <Vorpal> in the rest of the world we usually name those after the country instead
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13:37:29 <Vorpal> like "SMHI" (Sveriges Meteorologiska och Hydrologiska Institut). Translates to Sweden's Meteorological and Hydrological Institute
13:37:42 <soundnfury> Vorpal: we in the UK do something similar; "Royal Whatever" almost always means British
13:37:52 <itidus21> i quite enjoy seth uh.. -strains- mcfarlane cartoons about usa
13:38:59 <itidus21> with the sun in the sky and a smile on my face, something something salute to the american race
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13:39:55 <itidus21> "I got a feeling that it's gonna be a wonderful day! The sun in the sky has a smile on his face! And he's shinin' a salute to the American race!"
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13:40:37 <Vorpal> itidus21, presumably that refers to the native people of the US
13:41:02 <Vorpal> and doesn't include the natives of Canada and so on
13:44:41 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cS18c0GVk
13:44:56 <itidus21> its worth it to understand what im saying.. :D
13:45:13 <itidus21> sound is terrible but best version of the video i could find
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13:51:44 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:51:44 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:51:44 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:51:55 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:51:55 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:51:55 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:54:15 <lambdabot> http://www.internetslang.com/BBIAB-meaning-definition.asp
13:54:16 <lambdabot> Title: What does BBIAB mean? - BBIAB Definition - Meaning of BBIAB - InternetSlang.com
13:55:01 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:55:01 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:55:01 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:55:47 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:55:47 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:55:47 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:55:57 <lambdabot> *** "bbiab" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)"
13:55:57 <lambdabot> [I'll] Be Back In A Bit (telecommunication, Usenet, IRC)
13:56:58 <mroman> urban dict says "the most annoying fucking abbreviation to look at. ever"
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14:03:34 <nortti> rebuilding my distro after figuring out how to produce static strace
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14:07:51 <Vorpal> anyway I'm leaving quite soon.
14:08:08 <Vorpal> nortti, was static strace hard?
14:08:19 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway surely you could just build strace and add it to the distro?
14:08:34 <nortti> well I had to hand patch some config files
14:08:35 <Vorpal> rather than rebuilding the whole thing
14:08:48 <Vorpal> what sort of config files
14:09:07 <Vorpal> for strace or for something else?
14:09:15 <Vorpal> anyway why are you using the debian build system
14:09:48 <nortti> well it didn't add -static to CFLAGS otherwise
14:09:56 <Vorpal> seriously though, the debian build system is painfully over-complicated, with a large suite of different tools used to generate or edit those files
14:10:16 <Vorpal> nortti, I mean ./configure CFLAGS="-static" or something like that
14:10:31 <nortti> sash doesn't seem to handle redirects very well
14:11:07 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway you might want to use ccache if you aren't already. Should help speeding up the compiling
14:11:32 <nortti> redirecting stdin, out and err
14:11:45 <Vorpal> that is quite a bad shell then
14:11:55 <Vorpal> the busybox ash is quite good
14:12:14 <nortti> I know. it was my main shell until yesterday
14:12:41 <nortti> I am using sash until toysh becomes usable
14:12:41 <Vorpal> busybox as main shell must be painful
14:13:07 <nortti> it was very nice shell with tab completition and all
14:13:07 <Vorpal> well not the shell as such, but all the other busybox parts
14:13:14 <Vorpal> the busybox ps is quite limited for example iirc
14:13:31 <Vorpal> compared to the normal ps on linux
14:13:36 <nortti> not really. currently I use mix between busybox and toybox
14:14:01 <Vorpal> nortti, oh come on, compare busybox ps --help and the man page for the usual ps found on linux
14:14:10 <nortti> what is ccache by the way?
14:14:21 <nortti> Vorpal: I have done it
14:15:10 <Vorpal> nortti, ccache caches object files (you set a size limit, say 1 GB or so, for the disk cache). It can help reduce compile time when you compile the same source a lot
14:15:20 <Vorpal> like when you are working on a large project in C or C++
14:15:47 <Vorpal> nortti, it hashes the compiler flags and all resulting source file after the preprocessor
14:16:12 <Vorpal> well anyway, it won't break stuff due to you changing CFLAGS or so
14:16:27 <Vorpal> I think you can confuse it by switching gcc version used though
14:17:03 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway it does slow down the initial compile slightly (due to the overhead of caching) but after that it helps a lot
14:17:47 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't know how much you keep rebuilding the same source, or how long that takes up
14:18:00 <Vorpal> (how did that typo happen?)
14:19:53 <Vorpal> nortti, btw just in case, make sure resolv.conf has a trailing newline. I'm not sure that file needs it, but I have seen crontab and what not break without trailing newlines
14:20:57 <Vorpal> (will be back in several hours)
14:21:45 <nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III
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14:24:44 <nortti> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P)
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14:26:40 <nortti> @tell Vorpal in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P)
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16:53:57 <nooga> looks like i've found new hobby
16:53:59 <nooga> http://www.unlambda.com/download/cadr/CADR4_schematic.pdf
16:56:12 <nortti> what is that. I'm too lazy to start up X server
16:56:59 <nooga> MIT lisp machine schematics
16:57:24 <nortti> ooh. you are working with one?
16:59:12 <nortti> you are creating emulator?
17:01:39 <nooga> i will bake this in a FPGA
17:02:18 <nortti> is the software available?
17:03:08 <nooga> i think so, since the guy who wrote emulator posted some screenshots ;D
17:04:03 <Sgeo> I'm slowly becoming British
17:04:06 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeou.
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17:05:24 <Sgeou> I'm addicted to Red Dwarf, A Bit of Fry and Laurie, QI, Doctor Who
17:06:45 <nooga> nortti: why don't you run X all the time?
17:07:07 <nortti> it slows down my computer too much and uses around 50% of my memory
17:07:37 <nooga> oh, they've called from the 90's, they want their machine back
17:07:52 <nortti> this machine is from 2000
17:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, we've had this conversation with him, you can stop.
17:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it may help to know that he found the computer in a dumpster.
17:08:26 <nooga> maybe try raspberry pi
17:08:57 <nortti> well I'd have to buy new monitor, mouse, keyboard, hard drive...
17:09:14 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
17:09:43 <nortti> but yeah. I could consisder it if they get decent RISC OS 5 port running on it
17:10:20 <nooga> today i watched an aussie guy on youtube that got like truckload of HP workstations from a scrapyard
17:10:43 <nooga> quide decent computers actually
17:10:48 <nooga> with SATA and stuff
17:10:53 <nortti> nooga: but yeah. I'm on trouble with 90's and 80's wanting their computers back
17:11:27 <Sgeou> I used a computer from 2001 until maybe 2007
17:11:30 <nooga> build a beowulf cluster from them
17:11:37 <nortti> but my school is in trouble with 70's wanthing their reel to reel tape recorders back :P
17:13:16 <nooga> i've never had a computer with gaming class video card
17:13:25 <nortti> now I'm getting iBook g3 from 2001 for assembly summer 2012
17:13:46 <nooga> decent CPUs and RAM but no graphics ;<
17:14:21 <fizzie> The other laptop here is a G4 iBook from 2003 or thereabouts, and it's already being a bit of a problem, since it has OS X on it, and everyone's stopped supporting PPC.
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17:14:36 <nortti> fizzie: which version?
17:14:40 <fizzie> Firefox 3.x is the last Firefox that runs on OS X/PPC, I believe.
17:14:51 <fizzie> Version of OS X? 10.4.
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17:14:57 <nortti> fizzie: have you heard of TenFourFox
17:15:08 <fizzie> Yes, but I forget what the problem there was.
17:15:17 <nortti> fizzie: I used it when my iBook g4 worked
17:15:19 <nooga> i've got MacBook Pro, late 2011
17:15:56 <nortti> I've got Mac Classic, preforma 475 and dead iBook g4
17:16:37 <nortti> and now I'm getting iBook g3 dual usb with OS X 10.4
17:16:43 <nooga> OS X is nice but can be infuriating when it comes to some deeper hacking
17:16:55 <fizzie> I had one of these: http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml
17:17:21 <nortti> fizzie: also you can try what I did and build almost complete netbsd system on top of darwin kernel
17:17:57 <nortti> well netbsd is better supported
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17:18:23 <fizzie> It's not my laptop, so I can't. I do have one that's very similar, but I haven't used it in a while, since I have this other laptop from 2011.
17:18:36 <fizzie> It has some sort of a PPC Linux on it, though.
17:19:09 <fizzie> On the Performa I ran MkLinux, it was quite an experience too.
17:19:10 <nortti> fizzie: what you mean by very similar?
17:19:22 <nooga> i don't think there is any point in running darwin if you don't have the rest of the OS
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17:19:48 <nooga> there are some better kernels, i think
17:20:25 <fizzie> nortti: Another G4 iBook that's pretty much the same model, since it was bought not more than a month or two apart, and has slightly different specs.
17:20:56 <nortti> nooga: well what I had was netbsd running on top of darwin while also having tweaked os x running at the same time
17:22:27 <nortti> it was a pain to get to work initialy but when I got pkgsrc my life got a much easier
17:22:53 <nortti> also it fixed some braindeadness of OS X
17:22:56 <nooga> I have no time to hack
17:24:02 <nortti> I think that if you don't want to hack you can install pkgsrc on OS X other ways
17:25:39 <nortti> I originaly hand compiled everything
17:26:43 <nortti> getting mosaic-ck to work was one of the most satisfying moments
17:27:20 -!- Galactica has left.
17:30:26 <nortti> thinking about which is there easy way to run motif programs with framebuffer as output device
17:30:58 <fizzie> nortti: You are reminding me of a thing.
17:31:02 <fizzie> I will try to find the thing.
17:31:20 <fizzie> I will try to find it.
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17:31:32 <fizzie> Also Flash (or the lack of it) was the problem with TenFourFox.
17:31:49 <nortti> you could enable it on about:config
17:32:06 <nortti> or use flashvideoreplaces and qte and such
17:32:48 <fizzie> http://www.saunalambusplaza.net/peliplaza/kolumnit.php "Asensimpa taas Liinuksen", specifically this bit: "-- päätin asentaa sen autotallissa ilman valoja vanhaan Mäkintosh -koneeseen. Tuo kapistus onkin aina ollut onnettomana kohteena silloin kun kokeilunhaluni pääsee valloilleen, ja nytkin siinä oli pohjalla MacOS ja NetWare vitonen, jotka käynnistyvät yhtäaikaa."
17:33:43 <fizzie> (Sorry about the language, for our few non-Finnish readers.)
17:33:56 <Gregor> They can go to #esoteric-en
17:34:33 <nortti> fizzie: I could imagine myself in that situation
17:35:19 <nortti> nooga: eikö sulla oo ääkkösiä sun näppiksessä?
17:35:48 <fizzie> They have lost the "Gormic the Insuranced" RPG parody article I remember the old Mikrotietokonepelit thing having, when they combined that and the "Saunalambus Plaza" thing.
17:36:31 <fizzie> It had a title something like "Viimeinkin naksahti", and it's about how he finally flips out after playing pen-and-paper RPGs for such a long time, and starts murdering people for reals.
17:37:10 <nortti> fizzie: the one on the top of the page is bit wtf
17:37:22 <fizzie> nortti: Yeah, it's new. Clearly the new things are a bit stupid.
17:37:34 <fizzie> I think the same thing goes for the other subpages.
17:38:05 <fizzie> nooga: It's supposed to be "hyvää päivää", and that sounds very different than "hyvaa paivaa".
17:38:32 <nortti> nooga: it means: "don't you have å,ä and ö in your keyboard"
17:38:48 <nooga> i don't have ä when using terminal
17:38:57 <Lumpio-> Is that a dumb terminal from the 60s?
17:39:26 <nooga> well, it's Terminal.app and maybe it's dumb
17:39:35 <nooga> normally i'd hold 'a' key
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17:40:01 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, Terminal.app had problems with the "bright black" color.
17:40:14 <fizzie> The "it's just black" kind of problems.
17:40:55 <fizzie> http://macosx.com/forums/unix-x11/21100-terminal-ansi-color-dark-grey.html agrees-
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17:42:13 <nooga> i like how i can make Terminal.app full screen
17:42:21 <fizzie> I remember seeing a binary patch kind of thing somewhere to make it work.
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17:43:01 <nooga> i keep tabs, it looks almost like plain old text mode and i can just scroll to my desktop using 3 fingers
17:45:25 <fizzie> I used urxvt and X11.app, though it wasn't terribly pleasant experience either.
17:45:41 <nortti> I used xterm and X11.app
17:46:45 <fizzie> Well, it worked. But I vaguely recall having some keyboard difficulties. There was some confusion when it came to the OS X keymap and the X11 one. Anyway, moot point now.
17:47:55 <nooga> hipsters everywhere :F
17:48:10 <fizzie> The Apple ][ screensaver in xscreensaver does some monitor emulation things too, and IIRC you can use it as a regular terminal emulator with the right command flags.
17:48:16 <fizzie> Or maybe it was some other of the hacks. But still.
17:48:44 <fizzie> "Apple2 – simulates an Apple II computer, showing a user entering a simple BASIC program and running it. When run from the command-line, it is a fully functional terminal emulator (as is Phosphor.)" yes it was like that.
17:48:53 <fizzie> It's probably not OpenGL-accelerated though.
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18:04:38 <nooga> I feel need to design a language
18:07:19 <mroman> Hopefully it's not a brainfuck derivative.
18:08:34 <nooga> rather something minimal and elegant
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18:12:15 <Sgeou> Hey, are there any Game of Life programs capable of seeding an infinite random grid?
18:12:31 <Sgeou> I think Life32's grid is infinite, but can it randomly seed it?
18:13:21 <fizzie> Sounds somewhat difficult.
18:15:58 -!- Sgeou has changed nick to Sgeo.
18:16:20 <fizzie> Even if you're only interested in a single cell, to know what happens to it in generation k you'd have to consider every place that can be reached from it at the speed of light in k ticks.
18:18:15 <nooga> try limiting the speed
18:18:35 <nooga> of information propagation in the world
18:18:52 <nooga> it gives funny effects like something that looks like doppler effect
18:19:34 <Sgeo> fizzie, didn't say it would be efficient
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18:50:47 * tswett ponders a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets.
18:51:34 <tswett> Seems simple enough. Say that (...) means the first thing within it applied to all of the rest of the things within it. I'm not sure what () would mean.
18:51:44 <tswett> Then [...] means all of the things within it, composed. [] is the identity function.
18:52:48 <tswett> Lessee. (...) follows the rule that ((X)Y), where X and Y are strings of expressions, is equal to (XY).
18:53:16 <tswett> It follows that (()Y) should be equal to (Y). Thus, () should also be the identity function.
18:55:23 <tswett> Now, we'll want to be able to express the S and K combinators somehow.
18:56:18 <tswett> We might want to say that {abc...}x = ((ax)(bx)(cx)...). Then {} is KI, which doesn't seem that useful.
18:57:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:58:28 <tswett> Then, of course, {ab} is Sab.
18:59:03 <tswett> I'm pondering a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets.
19:00:05 <Gregor> It'd be more fun if it was a language where programs consist solely of sets of UNmatched brackets.
19:02:06 <tswett> ("Tal vez" is Hebrew for "fuck off".)
19:07:46 <Taneb> Does anyone know if Netflix and Spotify have linux clients?
19:08:21 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
19:08:49 <Taneb> `welcome sirdancealot
19:08:59 <HackEgo> sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:09:39 <HackEgo> sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:09:50 <tswett> We want you to feel as welcome as possible.
19:09:58 <HackEgo> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:10:11 <Taneb> (how's tswett pronounced? T-Sweat?"
19:10:21 <tswett> And yes, that's exactly how you pronounce it.
19:11:11 <tswett> My name is also the name of a famous moirallegiance.
19:11:22 <fizzie> If "they" were testing the bot, they'd use some of those weirdly capitulated or wide versions.
19:11:31 <Taneb> Are you on Sgeo's update list?
19:11:52 <Taneb> I didn't think of you as a Homestuck fan
19:12:17 <Sgeo> I converted tswett
19:12:22 <tswett> I'm also the guy that invented chromatography in the year 1900.
19:12:30 <tswett> My first name is Mikhail.
19:12:45 <mroman> And my name is Marie Curie.
19:12:59 <mroman> But I died of beeing to radioactive.
19:13:12 <Taneb> I'm just Taneb, or Ngevd online.
19:13:24 <Taneb> Nathan irl, if you happen to meet me
19:13:42 <tswett> Taneb: do you live in West Michigan or Chicago?
19:13:58 <Taneb> I live in the CAPITAL OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING, Hexham
19:14:10 <Taneb> sirdancealot, do you live in Hexham or Finland?
19:14:15 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:14:31 <Taneb> Me and elliott live there, but we've never met eachother?
19:14:50 <Taneb> 1 in 6000 people here frequent this channel
19:15:07 <Taneb> That's more than any place where more than 1 person frequents the channel
19:15:37 <tswett> So, you live near Manchester.
19:15:49 <Taneb> Like, 100 miles away
19:16:14 <Taneb> 150, according to google maps
19:16:16 -!- Dovregubben has joined.
19:16:33 <mroman> It's probably closer to edinburgh than to manchester.
19:16:50 <Taneb> By more than 50 miles
19:16:58 <Taneb> It's quite close to Newcastle?
19:17:17 <tswett> You know, I've never looked at the UK and the US on a map with the same scale.
19:18:25 <Taneb> The UK's... bigger than I though
19:18:26 <tswett> So the UK is about as big as... Newfoundland and Labrador?
19:18:36 <tswett> I've never heard of that.
19:18:52 <mroman> Hexham is right next to new castle.
19:18:53 <tswett> The UK is farther north than I thought.
19:19:11 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm further north than the vast majority of the people in Canada
19:19:24 <tswett> Conclusion: the US is annoyingly large.
19:19:39 <nortti> Taneb: how north are you?
19:19:51 <Taneb> 55 degrees, I think
19:20:11 <mroman> I thought I knew Hexham by name.
19:20:11 <Taneb> 54.9, according to Wikipedia
19:20:13 <nortti> oh. I'm 65 degrees north
19:20:24 <tswett> And I'm... 43 degrees north.
19:20:25 <Taneb> Yeah, but you're in Finland
19:20:29 <Taneb> THE LAND OF THE FINNS
19:20:35 <tswett> The weather here still sucks.
19:20:48 <tswett> Average summer high: 28 C. Blegh.
19:21:08 <Taneb> It's... 17 C here today
19:21:16 <calamari> uk area: 94,060 sq mi, arizona area: 113,990 sq mi
19:21:28 <mroman> 28 C, isn't that... perfect?
19:21:39 <mroman> Not too hot, not too cold.
19:22:02 <nortti> that is far too hot. around 17 C is good
19:22:19 <Taneb> It's 17 and really wet here
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19:22:46 <Taneb> 24 is sunbathing temperature
19:22:46 <mroman> 24 is almost cold again.
19:22:54 <Taneb> 12 is almost cold again
19:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The average summer high in Edinburgh is colder than that in Helsinki.
19:23:06 <mroman> everything under 20 C is cold.
19:23:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, british temperature doesn't vary much
19:23:48 <Taneb> Coldest I've seen, -12? Warmest, 29?
19:24:18 <nortti> coldest I have seen was about -38 and warmest about 40
19:24:51 <calamari> 36 right now, which is cooler than it has been
19:24:59 <Taneb> Dear god where are you
19:25:22 <calamari> phoenix and yuma are hotter than us
19:25:24 <Taneb> Serves you right for being so far damn south
19:25:39 <mroman> So I didn't really see it :)
19:26:39 <fizzie> I've heard it's been a not very warm July this year in (at least southern) Finland.
19:27:02 <mroman> It's fucking raining all the time.
19:27:06 <fizzie> 14.81 C at the moment according to outside.hut.fi, which I always check.
19:27:10 <calamari> heh so I implemented a locking mechanism (to enforce single instance).. and then I realized it does not work because this program launches a gui thread and so my lock dies
19:27:45 <Taneb> You've got exciting rain.
19:27:58 <Taneb> We've just got sporadic miserable drizzle, followed by flooding
19:28:38 <Taneb> And then bright sunshine
19:28:43 <mroman> It's not exciting rain.
19:28:47 <Taneb> It sometimes gets all the way up to 21
19:29:01 <mroman> It's raining cats and dogs!
19:29:19 <Taneb> Lie close to the roof and listen to it :)
19:30:01 <nortti> here the rain is also pretty boring except when it rains sideways
19:30:22 <Taneb> It sometimes rains upwards here
19:32:19 <mroman> Are you walking in handstand position on hexham abbey?
19:34:17 <Taneb> It's the best way to get around
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19:39:54 <nortti> neat. without extra binaries like strace my clean build of userland of my distro take 1 minute and 44 seconds on my machine
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19:50:41 <oerjan> 's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P
19:50:55 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:51:16 <oerjan> * oerjan thinks today's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P
19:51:35 <oerjan> well for a mezzacotta comic
19:52:58 <Gregor> "It's an incomprehensible labyrinth of nonsense, but it's pretty good.
19:54:15 <oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
19:55:49 <mroman> `addquote < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
19:55:51 <HackEgo> 850) < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
19:56:26 <mroman> just so that your quote is searchable .
20:01:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Ünicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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20:43:28 <Taneb> I've came to realise that creating a pair of Turing-complete machines and a correspondence such that a program in one machine halts iff the corresponding program in the other machine doesn't, would solve the halting problem
20:44:27 <Taneb> Either the program in the first machine or the corresponding machine in the second machine halts in finite time
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20:44:56 <Taneb> Why didn't I listen to my past self
20:45:58 <Taneb> Executing both simultaneously and waiting for one to halt, then stopping both, is guaranteed to halt, at which point you can inspect which halted
20:47:54 <olsner> sounds like a proof that there is no such correspondence
20:48:35 <Taneb> Considering that there are more than two Turing-complete computation modelly things
20:48:58 <Taneb> For instance, untyped lambda calculus and Wang's bathroom tiles
20:49:17 <Taneb> And the original Turing Machine
20:51:05 <mroman> You mean, M1 halts, if P halts, and doesn't if P doesn't halt
20:51:22 <mroman> and M2 halts, if P doesn't halt, and doesn't halt if P halts?
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20:52:57 <HackEgo> KlonMac7: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:53:55 <mroman> At least sounds like it busts the halting problem.
20:54:34 <Taneb> Hence, as the Halting problem has been repeatedly proven to be unsolvable, there is no such alternating correspondence between two Turing-machines
20:55:33 <oerjan> KlonMac7: hello, i noticed your language has no flow control yet...
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20:56:52 <mroman> Is there an actual concrete program for which it is impossible to solve the halting problem?
20:57:08 <oerjan> mroman: an interpreter of a TC language >:)
20:57:35 <mroman> That doesn't quite count.
20:57:38 <Taneb> If by program, you mean program/input pair, I don't think so
20:57:52 <shachaf> mroman: Why doesn't it count?
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20:58:07 <shachaf> There are certainly plenty of programs which we have no idea whether they'll halt or not.
20:58:32 <mroman> shachaf: Because the interpreter can be reduced to the problem of the halting problem of the program it is executing.
20:58:42 <mroman> so the interpreter is just a layer we can ignore.
20:58:54 <oerjan> mroman: note that for a given program and input, there always exists _some_ program that can tell whether it halts or not. (print "Halts" and print "Doesn't halt")
20:58:57 <mroman> if a bf program terminates, so does it's interpreter.
20:59:48 <mroman> oerjan: That's what I figured.
21:00:25 <mroman> The question is, does a program exists that does it in finite time?
21:00:54 <shachaf> mroman: You should probably read what oerjan said again.
21:00:58 <oerjan> mroman: um one of those does so in _constant_ time.
21:01:46 <mroman> Which just makes the halting problem less significant for me.
21:02:29 <shachaf> mroman: Yes, I'm pretty sure you should read what oerjan said again. :-)
21:02:39 <oerjan> to clarify, the _programs_ are 'print "Halts"' and 'print "Doesn't halt"'
21:03:08 <oerjan> and one of them always gives the right answer (says the classicist)
21:03:12 <mroman> that's just more confusing actually.
21:03:31 <mroman> You're sugesting a program that guesses?
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21:03:55 <oerjan> mroman: no, i'm suggesting two programs. for any given input, one of them will be correct.
21:04:10 <mroman> Unless you know which one, that's pretty much useless
21:04:17 <mroman> and not what I meant to ask for actually.
21:04:47 <oerjan> mroman: the point i'm really trying to point out here is that unsolvability doesn't make _sense_ for a single program/input case.
21:05:41 <mroman> If you can solve the halting problem with a program written by a human for a given program written by a human
21:06:13 <oerjan> the halting problem says that there is no way to construct a program that tells correctly for _every_ halting question instance.
21:06:22 <mroman> (or written by a program written by a human)
21:06:50 <oerjan> mroman: now you are getting into AI theory, because that's needed to define those terms...
21:07:02 <mroman> doesn't that mean that you can solve it for every program a human can write
21:07:16 <mroman> and humans can write every program that can exist.
21:07:25 <oerjan> mroman: um a human can write a program that they don't know whether halts or not.
21:07:30 <shachaf> Humans can't write every program that exists.
21:07:42 <shachaf> And it's easy to write a program that no one knows whether it'll halt.
21:07:52 <shachaf> (And that people care about whether it'll halt, also.)
21:08:03 <mroman> That's what I asked for.
21:08:55 <mroman> no one knows doesn't quite mean that it can't be solved at all.
21:09:10 <shachaf> for (i = 0; ; i++) { if (containsNon421Cycle(collatz(i))) { halt(); } }
21:09:30 <mroman> That's a classical example program, yes.
21:10:06 <mroman> but afaik it's just not proven *yet* that it always ends up in the same cycle.
21:10:43 <oerjan> mroman: so? it is by no means unlikely that many of the unsolved mathematical problems are unsolvable
21:10:45 <shachaf> OK. Lots of things aren't proven *yet*.
21:11:11 <oerjan> perhaps collatz can be solved, but then almost certainly some other problem cannot
21:13:24 <oerjan> > head [n | n <- [1, 3..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]]
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21:13:44 <oerjan> > head [n | n <- [2, 4..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]]
21:15:39 <oerjan> mroman: also disallowing things embedding interpreters is disingenious because embedding an interpreter for something TC is the main way most proofs of unsolvability are done.
21:19:03 <oerjan> for example, i could write a program that searches for solutions to the post correspondence theorem and that would be an example of a program whose halting problem is undecidable - but the reason we _know_ that is because the turing machine halting problem can be encoded into it.
21:19:11 <mroman> but if a Program in a TC language terminates, so does the interpreter.
21:19:22 <mroman> as well as the interpreter interpreting the interpreter interpreting the program
21:19:25 <oerjan> which is essentially a form of interpretation.
21:20:47 <mroman> That means that an interpreter is a bad example program as an answer to my question.
21:21:37 <oerjan> mroman: yes, but as i say most _known_ example program are known precisely because they are interpreters in disguise ... sometimes deeply disguised.
21:22:29 <oerjan> there might be counterexamples which i haven't heard about.
21:23:48 <oerjan> or there might not be.
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21:54:29 <Sgeo> I liked the season 1-2 intro better
22:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So do I, but it works a lot better with those seasons than later ones.
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22:22:38 <nortti_> soundnfury: what language are you using to implement your lisp on spectrum?
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22:40:01 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuNs1v_jtfs
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23:06:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I meant the music
23:10:35 <calamari> argh the fan in my window a/c just got loud
23:11:09 <calamari> wonder how much of a pain in the ass it will be to figure out where it is and fix it
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23:35:34 <HackEgo> Veronica: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:36:00 <HackEgo> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
23:36:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thanks: not found
23:36:54 <shachaf> (WAIT, DID I JUST SAY THAT?)
23:37:42 <HackEgo> ＯＥＲＪＡＮ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ
23:38:03 <Veronica> ＯＥＲＪＡＮ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡ
23:38:47 <oerjan> this unicode is getting out of hand
23:39:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:39:58 <shachaf> oerjan: ami guilt yof ru iningt hischa nnel?
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23:41:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:41:33 <olsner> shachaf: kahdeksankymmeltäyhdeksän?
23:42:20 <shachaf> olsner: More like "kahdeksankymmentäyhdeksän".
23:42:49 <shachaf> olsner: And then teach me. :-(