< 1342052351 47924 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's disturbing, I had something in common with Rimmer.
< 1342052390 369079 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was a kid, once played a game and wrote down all the rolls of the dice
< 1342052393 85666 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc
< 1342052841 804120 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1342053460 546314 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342054954 660198 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :smeghead
< 1342055212 269573 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :get the smeg out of the channel with your smegging rude language
< 1342055580 213394 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[>+<+++++++]>-.>++[>+<+++++]>-.>+>+[+++[++>]<<]>..>>+[+>+[<]>->]<.
< 1342055581 88470 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1342055989 387150 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :The plural of "irssi" is "irssit", right?
< 1342056414 424306 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOUNDS REASONABLE
< 1342057145 964402 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: sir, i believe we've wandered accidentally into a rogue simulant hunting zone
< 1342057189 156264 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you a simulant?
< 1342057225 603859 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know
< 1342057246 993556 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google simulant
< 1342057248 738952 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulant
< 1342057299 916248 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a simulant, although i can simulate one if you want
< 1342057892 930763 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342057895 323906 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I found out that I completely misunderstood CTR mode, and that the thing it actually is is kind of weird.
< 1342057904 542942 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah?
< 1342057906 936369 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, simulant is a Red Dwarf reference
< 1342057942 317349 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird in that it doesn't every use the cipher to decrypt -- it just uses it as a sort of pseudo-random function.
< 1342057953 943399 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1342057962 612728 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a way of creating a stream cipher from a block cipher, in a sense
< 1342057978 903008 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, so is e.g. CBC.
< 1342057986 287871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it actually uses the block cipher in both directions.
< 1342058017 905809 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had previously thought it was something like encrypt(xor(block, iv + counter), key)
< 1342058027 448484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people pointed out that that's broken.
< 1342058119 368029 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the data might increment alongside the counter?
< 1342058143 371932 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i googled it as a random quote though
< 1342058146 775222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, because if you can encrypt a chosen plaintext with a particular ID, you can compare it to another ciphertext to see if they match.
< 1342058250 121746 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not actually a qualified red dwarf fan
< 1342058280 82811 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1342058596 331621 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just encountered an advantage that Lisp-style macros have over Tcl-style... thingy
< 1342058670 118957 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've decided that when people complain about "ATM machine" and such, I will complain about "all OK"~
< 1342058692 123190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: OK isn't an acronym.
< 1342058700 566122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or an initialism, if you're the sort of person who complains about that.
< 1342058704 1648 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just, like, your opinion, man
< 1342058735 628915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has been defeated.
< 1342058768 415579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why do people put a lot of work into making block ciphers and then use them as stream ciphers?
< 1342058932 652664 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps because they want to use stream ciphers, but the things designed as stream ciphers tend to be weak
< 1342059002 274231 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one may also ask, why is this a popular platform? http://www.theunwired.net/media/news/opera_mini_5_android_teaser_hand.jpg .. why do developers work on several 32" monitors with maya and 3dsmax etc to produce 3d content for such a small device
< 1342059031 959262 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, never change
< 1342059044 756563 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and.. maybe someone agrees with me.. and hence: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console
< 1342059055 99722 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backers 
< 1342059055 463922 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$3,586,881
< 1342059062 702438 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows even less about stream ciphers than he does about block ciphers
< 1342059067 671586 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1342059081 864984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Don't stream ciphers tend to be the thing you actually want?
< 1342059084 801588 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence all these modes.
< 1342059112 686269 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone wants to hear the nonsensical ravings of a loudmouth malcontent 
< 1342059121 398756 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i mean
< 1342059165 354300 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when ouya raises $10,000,000 they would know i was right if they listen >:-D
< 1342059187 377131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems really roundabout to me to put a lot of work into making a block cipher, ignore half of it, and use it to generate a keystream.
< 1342059205 649982 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342059216 726236 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you actually ignore half of the work
< 1342059224 240227 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes.
< 1342059228 298738 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean half of the cipher.
< 1342059249 229172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The argument seems to be "AES happens to have all the properties we want, and people have put a lot of work into understanding it, so we might as well use that".
< 1342059252 735014 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I guess is reasonable.
< 1342059294 855994 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what if you use something like a block cipher but lacking a "decrypt" operation
< 1342059300 225711 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a cryptographic hash function
< 1342059352 386444 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1342059355 792217 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION realises i don't even know how i got from ATM/OK -> android 
< 1342059357 82320 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ciphertext = xor(plaintext, hash(key + counter))
< 1342059361 559957 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that secure?
< 1342059378 878211 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^s/i don't/he doesn't/  s/i got/he got/
< 1342059391 759992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would seem to me to be, given an appropriate behavior of hash().
< 1342059405 135048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :key + iv + counter, I guess.
< 1342059420 308613 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the iv is a per-session random constant?
< 1342059422 867326 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret?
< 1342059427 126913 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not secret.
< 1342059431 963626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is assuming you use the key more than once.
< 1342059434 23948 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right
< 1342059443 106114 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also start the counter at a random point, equivalently
< 1342059462 857419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose.
< 1342059489 399881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people suggested that the compression function used in SHA1 is actually a good deal slower than AES.
< 1342059528 959997 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes.. the parallels between the fact that they "put a lot of work into" hdtv, and gpus, and the fact that gamers ultimately "ignore half of it, and" gravitate towards low end handhelds
< 1342059557 403930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: You've bored right through to the heart of the matter.
< 1342059560 463717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've figured me out.
< 1342059565 480133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is part of the conspiracy.
< 1342059572 148358 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were talking about gaming all along!
< 1342059634 186124 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im satisfied
< 1342059716 378139 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recounts events
< 1342059754 598486 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"people have put a lot of work into understanding it, so we might as well use that" so it's the gambler's fallacy that since we have invested this much, we have to stick with it
< 1342059786 138562 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hurts so much
< 1342059794 338383 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so thats not gamblers fallacy
< 1342059803 241794 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it is a fallacy of gamblers though
< 1342059807 845556 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to give you the benefit of the doubt
< 1342059829 625802 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Escalation of commitment i mean
< 1342059851 830278 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there is a "sunk costs anti-fallacy" where some people will cry "sunk costs fallacy!" at any attempt to utilize existing resources
< 1342059883 303957 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously if you abandon any project in which costs have been sunk, you will get nothing done
< 1342059895 463356 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is whether the future payoff from the project exceeds the future costs
< 1342059938 61875 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of using AES as a crypto primitive, the future payoff (highly secure systems) is judged to be worth the future costs (integrating this well-understood, widely implemented thing)
< 1342059973 600709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no real cost, I suppose, it's just weird.
< 1342060152 564571 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: So when people say "AES-256 is theoretically broken by a related-key attack", does that also apply to CTR mode?
< 1342060642 15188 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me :x
< 1342061313 632345 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ijchain> <stevel> cool lisp is
< 1342061324 432966 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why why why would a Tcl'er joke about Lisp like _that_
< 1342061333 762631 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in that regard, Tcl and Lisp are rather close
< 1342061348 911766 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, except for the expr thing for math)
< 1342061708 588178 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO PARENTHESES
< 1342061721 745643 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think it's backwards but
< 1342061726 803834 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people on the internet say dumb shit about lisp
< 1342061728 139716 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :film at 11
< 1342061756 65444 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :confusing with forth you are
< 1342061776 896038 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :was yoda a forth program
< 1342061780 279366 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :mer
< 1342061838 136872 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no forth wasn't invented yet
< 1342061842 594797 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth
< 1342061857 447079 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :parallel evolution
< 1342062637 232138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :From #haskell: data PBT a = Leaf | Branch (PBT (a,a)) deriving (Eq,Ord,Show,Read); let x :: PBT a; x = Branch x
< 1342062641 982126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That recursion really bugs me.
< 1342062683 56301 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1342062983 486026 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-190.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1342062985 167394 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-227-180.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342063889 865458 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342063934 225273 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1342063959 573048 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342065418 411621 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com QUIT :Quit: This is me, signing off.  Probably rebooting or something.
< 1342065691 911969 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-227-180.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342065692 364995 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-138-32.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342065715 780065 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342066761 749679 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-226-144.as43234.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1342068580 545193 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ei muuten todellakaan ole. me voitimme sen reilusti ja neliö.
< 1342068635 624849 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that expression.
< 1342068662 638114 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i think i'll use it from now on
< 1342069119 304907 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :some fucking asshole is doing his laundry on my turn again
< 1342069184 994800 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i lived here and was sure it's not my gf's roommate, i'd totally like still not do anything about it.
< 1342069457 412732 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342069553 529784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night
< 1342069618 913197 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342070358 165117 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1342071927 904871 :kallisti!~eris@h2.6.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342071928 263957 :kallisti!~eris@h2.6.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host
< 1342071928 462443 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342073024 598220 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1342073258 665615 :oklopol!oklopol@62-241-225-233.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1342074164 854925 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the spirit. mathematician/computer programmers are not the alphamales of the laundry machines. 
< 1342075032 897732 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can elephants juggle more than seven chainsaws?
< 1342075207 836148 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"juggling elephants" About 62,700 results 
< 1342075248 723713 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"juggling elephants" chainsaws About 709 results
< 1342075257 598430 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including such gems as:
< 1342075269 837742 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, rather than playing this admirable slice of soaring gospel rock against a backdrop of chainsaw-juggling elephants and heavily mauled,
< 1342075286 654028 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prove do not exist; abominable snowmen, flying pigs, chainsaw juggling elephants, teapots orbiting celestial bodies, to name but a few.
< 1342075317 635837 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they'd bring on juggling elephants or chainsaw-wielding tightrope walkers, because surely such events are the only reason football
< 1342075343 49028 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try googling the entire question
< 1342075371 415880 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O
< 1342075567 809710 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long is my life going to be
< 1342075616 549232 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1342075656 933818 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that in addition to all i have suffered, and all i am due to suffer, that i must suffer such things as the tcl war
< 1342075727 607592 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Tcl Wars of 1994, such a senseless waste of human life.
< 1342075731 332436 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps these people should give up science and instead join sports, politics, or religion
< 1342075765 220217 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- more than a little hypocritical
< 1342078119 667284 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-167.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342078340 584406 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-138-32.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342078497 995179 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tcl war is partially fascism
< 1342078633 438748 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ウェルカム itidus21 
< 1342078642 218872 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ウェルカム: not found
< 1342078646 538775 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't see the text >.<
< 1342078650 334192 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :pff.
< 1342078660 578329 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: 「ようこそ」
< 1342078674 127245 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :「ウェルカム」は変。
< 1342078694 399346 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we need everyone to stop using a thing which looks set to became popular on it's own merits, and instead use an unpopular thing favorable to people like richard stallman"
< 1342078767 260053 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: なるほど
< 1342078969 873142 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i am playing catch up on rms
< 1342078982 244763 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's evidently 18 year old news
< 1342078998 484793 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops 8?
< 1342079014 196952 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no 18 phew
< 1342079026 676933 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot about the years 2001 - 2010
< 1342079063 539721 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing happened in these years anyway.
< 1342079069 441266 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true
< 1342079102 317045 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't that "never forget" thing happen? 
< 1342079115 407247 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What non-Smalltalk language communities have people who like image-based stuff?
< 1342079122 972166 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's at least two such things for Tcl
< 1342079131 54615 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh you mean the war on iraq?
< 1342079135 814350 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that happened :P
< 1342079139 975965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's image-based stuff? 
< 1342079155 133772 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, single file that contains the entire environment
< 1342079161 771279 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that sort of image.
< 1342079165 8755 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ala non-GNU Smalltalk
< 1342079187 463957 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Forthers do that sort of stuff sometimes, don't they? 
< 1342079210 168377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least Gforth does image files, gforth.fi by default.
< 1342079339 30601 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i notice audio is very popular
< 1342079340 50328 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, uh... R? 
< 1342079361 974835 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if i had actually used an instrument ever i might find audio more appealing
< 1342079368 152593 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I vaguely recall some Scheme doing something similar, but I don't have a clue which one it was.
< 1342079413 738742 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that cool people prefer audio over video
< 1342079423 821021 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can't quite explain why
< 1342079424 512302 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool people, and blind people.
< 1342079431 775407 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Presumably.)
< 1342079436 654512 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm actually
< 1342079449 150793 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it's because a human body, with no other tools
< 1342079456 522738 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can produce sound and music
< 1342079501 262653 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, in order to create visual things, you need objects to arrange... video displays, cameras, pens, pencils, canvases, paper, paint, etc
< 1342079593 233026 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :"never forget" thing?
< 1342079594 779170 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that an instrument becomes an extension of the human body in that sense.. doesn't need fuel.. as the way video needs electricity usually.. pens need ink
< 1342079599 281712 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :First black president?
< 1342079605 271636 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: the oil thing
< 1342079610 988449 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.
< 1342079613 76520 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1342079614 446034 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The seven-eleven.
< 1342079616 919035 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever it was.
< 1342079619 210808 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Americans invading Iraq...
< 1342079620 755257 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :AGAIN!
< 1342079640 653743 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :After they supported the dictator there for so a damn long time.
< 1342079648 402819 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :americans deconstructing and reconstructing iraq
< 1342079656 64396 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever I put a date on something I stick in the freezer, I'm tempted to write "never forget!" after the date. I've done it a couple of times, too.
< 1342079758 10127 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRn0SQsUKuw
< 1342079761 838809 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im too paranoid to believe the official version of events
< 1342079774 203961 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- That's pretty much the picture an average critical european has of america ;)
< 1342079780 184618 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't MIT Scheme have some sort of an image file? 
< 1342079802 447924 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This distribution comes with four different image files, each of which contains different mixes of programs." Yes, something like that.
< 1342079837 157214 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A world image, also called a band, is a file that contains a complete Scheme system, perhaps additionally including user application code. Scheme provides a method for saving and restoring world images."
< 1342079842 164390 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fancy name.
< 1342079862 821440 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :'disk-save' puts the band back together.
< 1342079878 374953 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why images become so wonderful
< 1342079898 300386 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just vram data being blasted along a vga cable
< 1342079911 896573 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a different sort of image, though.
< 1342079914 977643 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The non-visual kind.
< 1342079919 134669 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o
< 1342079960 825431 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see http://english.eastday.com/e/zx/images/01459347.jpg
< 1342079975 416693 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's me understanding non-visual images)
< 1342080158 172887 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more like just stealing the word to denote something else. Like there's disk images, those aren't especially visual either.
< 1342080200 450670 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :conversations with me rarely go anywhere
< 1342080433 338771 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A PIECE of wood which starred in 60s comic caper The Plank amazed experts when it broke the �1,000 barrier at auction.
< 1342080903 990738 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This printer smells of popcorn.
< 1342080974 529531 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if anyone has ever loaded up the red section of a color ink cartridge with their own blood
< 1342081028 745626 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and frankly i don't want to know
< 1342081139 898940 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might not work terribly well. Though it does sound like a modern way to be all gothy, I suppose.
< 1342081169 536806 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: And an American view on America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI
< 1342081229 202127 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably: "You wanna help the poor? Are you a socialist? Ary you a socialist? Aryoua SOZIALOSSTHSTHSHS?"
< 1342081256 994413 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^- american tv interviewer)
< 1342081291 177970 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how they list sushi
< 1342081956 904509 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342082230 487191 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-254-99.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342082231 445098 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-228-167.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1342082700 216095 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.google.com/search?q=%2210.4000%22+hp+laserjet+event+log+code
< 1342082839 424801 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342083003 805436 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a lot of printers.
< 1342083032 282653 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recall there are queries that do something quite similar for networked cameras.
< 1342083039 196910 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342083044 249169 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1342083051 112032 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can get on IRC at school now, apparently?
< 1342083069 589743 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.exploit-db.com/google-dorks/
< 1342083082 537376 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blocked for hacking?
< 1342083177 878788 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: You could take all the Google results of your printer thing, get the black cartridge level from the 'device status' page, and then plot a histogram showing the overall distribution of black cartridge levels on HP LaserJet P2055dn printers around the world. I'm sure that's interesting to someone.
< 1342083202 975912 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. the printer at 70.108.240.40 only has 1% (approx. 27 pages) remaining, someone should do something about that.
< 1342083255 367808 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, cpressey's alive
< 1342083260 333906 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hah
< 1342083288 621258 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Since that printing operation will change the value, one should do that again. And again.
< 1342083417 990233 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of just, you know, publishing the plot on the web, not printing it out to everyone. :p
< 1342083629 970215 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. :-(
< 1342083722 133663 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net QUIT :Quit: lesson
< 1342084072 188189 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: I'm afraid I was asleep when you asked your question last night.  The answer is Z80 asm.
< 1342084175 467045 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for daily trivia! The SGI FFT library defines single- and double-precision complex number types (as struct { T re; T im; } with T = float or T = double). The former type is called 'complex', but the latter type has the best possible name: it's called 'zomplex'. (It follows the LAPACK naming scheme with S, D, C and Z mapping to single, double, single complex and double complex types, ...
< 1342084181 576975 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... respectively.)
< 1342084186 20354 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, http://jttlov.no-ip.org/music/gark/Guil_bis.ogg - William Tell on garkleins, by the power of multitrack recording.  Unconscionably high-pitched: you have been warned.
< 1342084219 507298 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: cool.  Or, to be more precise, zool.
< 1342084232 7121 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(zomplex! It still makes me smile.)
< 1342084235 476072 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1342084288 270074 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomplex f(zomplex z, zomplex w) { /* giggle */ }
< 1342084301 870425 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg zombie complex numbers!  "√-brains"
< 1342084357 690960 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: Heh, nice.
< 1342084383 806651 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here's some daily trivia for you: the inverted interrobang ⸘ is also known as the "gnaborretni"
< 1342084450 288328 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ᵷuɐqoɹɹǝʇuᴉ
< 1342084504 226629 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, for me that starts and ends with replacement characters
< 1342084518 601229 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just see inverted nterroban
< 1342084527 918986 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask for your money back.
< 1342084534 611018 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works here. But my terminal can't show the asterism, ⁂.
< 1342084546 769937 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like a mini therefore
< 1342084558 867474 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes the compose key
< 1342084572 525428 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a therefore except with stars in place of plain dots.
< 1342084596 858977 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :¢ømpōßê
< 1342084614 163233 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the asterism, too.
< 1342084614 974259 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially neat is ##->♯ and #b->♭
< 1342084626 160851 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: Cool, i didn’t know that.
< 1342084627 802704 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ᵷuɐqoɹɹǝʇuᴉ looks like "interrobany" to me
< 1342084641 486037 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: inverted as in upsidedown?
< 1342084646 52914 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: when you type ᵷuɐqoɹɹǝʇuᴉ all I see is hunter2
< 1342084653 217194 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have unicode
< 1342084656 362812 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: as in turned
< 1342084658 971636 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You may want to ask for your money back, too.
< 1342084664 430265 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the spaniards do with ? and !
< 1342084669 266734 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :¿Que?
< 1342084674 183857 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh
< 1342084674 383057 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+1D77 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED G
< 1342084675 400242 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1342084684 678305 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do that with interrobangs :o
< 1342084692 811423 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a g but they goofed it and chopped off the top
< 1342084701 612961 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :small turned g I mean
< 1342084712 680415 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: sadly there doesn't appear to be a compose for the natural sign ☹
< 1342084730 59846 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you turn the ⸮ (irony mark) around? 
< 1342084733 203128 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :�No es bueno?
< 1342084741 987790 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find funny how Unicode has a white smiling face and a black smiling face, but just a white frowning face.
< 1342084754 998030 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, a table: http://www.hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html
< 1342084773 311950 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: that's because black people aren't allowed to be unhappy (or something)
< 1342084793 552159 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1342084805 476677 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ximkeys
< 1342084805 675569 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342084824 424223 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ſweet!  It has long ſ!
< 1342084829 808036 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GTK (unless you do something to the input method) has its own hardcoded list of compose sequences that's not as complete as the default X list, nor can you customize it with a ~/.Xcompose. :/
< 1342084850 182678 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :compoſe
< 1342084864 423811 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that sucks.
< 1342084877 268999 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GtkComposeTable -- the stupef.
< 1342084910 118495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Gtk Compose Table was derived from the X compose tables of XFree86 version 4.0 with further modification intended to provide a Gnome standard for all locales. It is likely that in future it will follow more closely the xorg version. Please keep track of GNOME bug 633534 for complete documentation."
< 1342084915 482569 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's better nowadays.
< 1342084918 569205 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I looked was some years back.,
< 1342084937 294840 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think you can customize it yet.
< 1342085014 103907 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There doesn't seem to be an INVERTED REVERSED QUESTION MARK, so you can't do [insert missing character here]Spanish irony⸮ in Unicode either.
< 1342085039 875376 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you need to complain to the Consortium!
< 1342085077 904575 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#f->♮
< 1342085085 219909 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now how is one supposed to guess that?
< 1342085165 119398 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I hate how they went for #q=quarter note instead of #q=quaver (eighth note, #e, they think)
< 1342085323 924434 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can change it
< 1342085343 382321 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. that was mentioned a while ago
< 1342085366 731802 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I was thinking of the plain old XCompose file
< 1342085593 330974 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/X11/locale/<locale>/Compose
< 1342085606 301767 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be the system's master list
< 1342085706 188960 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, Compose C C C P ☭
< 1342085712 602717 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's hilarious!
< 1342085721 736498 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do?
< 1342085955 295508 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it produce sicle and hammer?
< 1342085963 987662 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1342086037 662881 :Dovregubben!~kurt@c-67-160-13-34.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1342086072 773237 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome
< 1342087368 292219 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342087520 691718 :Dovregubben!~kurt@c-67-160-13-34.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342087872 41385 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342087874 309375 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1342087904 263308 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackage is down :(
< 1342087943 847869 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackage?
< 1342087952 284510 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.isup.me/hackage.haskell.org
< 1342087964 518839 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it?
< 1342087986 143695 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a collection of haskell packages on a website, used by Cabal
< 1342087990 954257 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1342088018 616086 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you using mail server to irc?
< 1342088045 636675 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... don't think so?
< 1342088057 58344 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be
< 1342088061 482162 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:11 -!- Taneb [~Taneb@mail.qehs.net] has joined #esoteric
< 1342088066 597376 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like the kind of thing my school would do
< 1342088100 9727 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually I have my shell on mail/web server
< 1342088110 982250 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using a network my school's set up for sixth form students
< 1342088117 207557 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(16-18)
< 1342088128 522158 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1342088184 486473 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: how do you do management/garbage cllection in your lisp?
< 1342088264 823390 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: the plan is mark-and-sweep
< 1342088291 37821 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't got very far with implementation yet
< 1342088339 16897 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far I've written the compiler (which runs on a 'host' Linux system and compiles program text to a bundle of conses)
< 1342088366 318635 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently working on a C/Linux runtime so I can get the logic sorted out
< 1342088372 688314 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'll reimplement it into Z80
< 1342088546 946989 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could also be a NAT kind of thing, with the single public IP named for the mail server.
< 1342088563 636730 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be
< 1342088917 369616 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/12/in-the-uk-you-will-go-to-jail-not-just-for-encryption-but-for-astronomical-noise-too/
< 1342088971 98018 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that causing a disturbance and keeping the neighbours awake
< 1342088978 332700 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That racket is astronomical!"
< 1342089152 976861 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl
< 1342089154 202009 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1342089776 167659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342090113 21373 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1342090144 578189 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342090178 477911 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1342090191 259897 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well honestly
< 1342090231 73298 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's best to just drop the pretense that laws are grounded in logic,morals, ethics, or philosophies..
< 1342090246 181559 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and accept that they emerge as artifacts of social conflict
< 1342090370 126901 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you live, again
< 1342091151 969854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :
< 1342091164 842634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342091516 679785 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :me? aus
< 1342091526 690929 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, non-european aus
< 1342091540 279548 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. ok
< 1342091549 124923 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1342091839 151498 :ogrom!~nask@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342092634 964596 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1342093081 682573 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342093516 536341 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342093593 971523 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342094080 208692 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's fucked up idea:
< 1342094088 245657 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language based on blink and marque tags.
< 1342094104 566743 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay. I got js enabled browser to compile
< 1342094108 722017 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programs can be disguised as crappy webpages.
< 1342094111 206760 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is text only
< 1342094247 333414 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :<blink><marquee>Buy one free today</marquee></blink><blink>GET READY</blink>
< 1342094308 60334 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342094401 552015 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342094491 966029 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :<blink>Hello Taneb</blink>
< 1342094496 62680 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey
< 1342094499 984772 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342094502 410438 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Hello
< 1342094542 252259 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two instruction language that'd be.
< 1342094554 860115 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set is one of the few interesting foldables that aren't functors
< 1342095176 423294 :ogrom!~nask@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: begone
< 1342095241 321030 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342095244 977436 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PART :#esoteric
< 1342095860 869708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1342096126 730175 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net QUIT :Quit: time for foood
< 1342096270 937076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342096860 908050 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342096961 998917 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1342097240 214958 :neutrino2000!~neutrino@host-188-174-160-51.customer.m-online.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342097613 599098 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: you could make <blink> be S and <marquee> be K
< 1342097655 221481 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have string application be concatenation
< 1342097806 707422 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<blink><marquee>Buy one</marquee>free today</blink><blink>GET READY</blink> would b-reduce to BuytodayfreetodayGET
< 1342098293 726659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: changing connection, brb in an hour or so
< 1342098632 949974 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the point i am apt to wonder, of changing a variable from one state to another
< 1342098733 373704 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must admit finding some consolation to this question when i randomly stumbled upon martin buber in wikipedia with Ich-Du and Ich-Es
< 1342098762 86978 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342098900 634884 :Taneb!~Taneb@mail.qehs.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1342099036 151830 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: I would consider it to be SKS
< 1342099041 748023 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :only counting start tags.
< 1342099360 327947 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .
< 1342100500 79151 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-142-200.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342100523 34071 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-254-99.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1342100782 990006 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, because the arities of S and K are defined.
< 1342100795 831341 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't need the end-tags to parenthesise arguments
< 1342101169 838764 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left
< 1342101371 715537 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
< 1342101751 918768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342101874 512959 :stanley!~stanley@unaffiliated/stanley JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342102024 315832 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8
< 1342102150 360303 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342102459 576489 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342103329 404866 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi
< 1342104440 326744 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342104931 789283 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: Stuff between tags is comments.
< 1342104938 211930 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :<blink>I'm a comment</blink>
< 1342104944 762036 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can disguise it as a legit website.
< 1342105020 710832 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kind of “legit” web site with <blink> tags? ^^´
< 1342105093 144837 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes.
< 1342105146 948184 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :<blink>Buy one free</blink> websites.
< 1342105260 128159 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other non standard tags.
< 1342105261 428656 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like
< 1342105264 278308 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :spacer
< 1342105266 114597 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :image
< 1342105270 826427 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bgsound of course
< 1342105445 381258 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :<embed src="something_horrible_by_britney_spears.mid" loop="true" />
< 1342105649 243083 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be worse
< 1342105652 532198 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be <font>
< 1342105693 976367 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :<font face="comic sans">THIS IS MY WEB PAGE IT IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION I LEARNED EVERYTHING I KNOW FROM W3SCHOOLS</font>
< 1342105727 805299 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :<img src="under_construction.gif">
< 1342105737 443448 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of those animated road sign ones.
< 1342105760 288142 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342105776 788563 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :<img src="rotating_skull.gif"> too.
< 1342105778 268535 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes
< 1342105785 989566 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, for a typography nut and kerning obsessive, I'm surprisingly relaxed about Comic Sans
< 1342105789 401083 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking for an animated "under construction" gif but google image search found none .__.
< 1342105795 632028 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's Helvetica I hate
< 1342105798 723495 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want the one with the lemmings
< 1342105813 834276 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also <IMG SRC="animated_fire.gif">
< 1342105900 488168 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Real Men use monospace.  And then kern it anyway https://github.com/ec429/monokern
< 1342105936 483274 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there a bell.wav file in there
< 1342105937 994303 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: The web page for that site... is unreadable.
< 1342105938 663546 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I even want to know
< 1342105952 934781 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342105953 344356 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mroman.ch/legit.html
< 1342105955 727249 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- Like that.
< 1342105997 500740 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: d'you mean github, or the linked jttlov.no-ip.org?
< 1342106004 818263 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the former, not my fault
< 1342106008 602861 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: The linked one.
< 1342106013 447591 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: The colors, man. The COLORS.
< 1342106029 781755 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1342106033 643675 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why dark blue on black? WHYYY?
< 1342106045 190440 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: because I haven't yet learned how to make X trigger a _proper_ terminal bell, so I'm using aplay :shameface:
< 1342106061 320581 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.
< 1342106066 135916 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :D:
< 1342106066 821011 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If you mean the *colours*, it's light blue, not dark blue, text, ffs
< 1342106069 250997 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's YOU
< 1342106092 117896 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: That is not light blue. It is, at best, lukewarm blue. It is bad.
< 1342106118 296075 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I choose to not care
< 1342106123 519991 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrugs*
< 1342106128 149256 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrugs also*
< 1342106221 241165 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a rotating gif.
< 1342106430 949559 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :a... much better.
< 1342108198 376022 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: http://www.squidoo.com/under-construction-gif
< 1342108301 521411 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear @comments
< 1342108374 46649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1342108383 922532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342108431 172503 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1342108697 618498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342112720 866485 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1342113273 381192 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm confused by leg/peg 
< 1342113305 618805 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1342113308 200055 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know when semantic actions are performed when rules use quantifiers
< 1342113309 881550 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :like
< 1342113338 954031 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = y ('|' y)*
< 1342113414 350158 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :how am I supposed to build binary syntax tree from that
< 1342113730 691137 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1342114181 442873 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should just rewrite it to use recursion instead.
< 1342114207 392014 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know anything about peglegs.)
< 1342114224 763944 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342114350 421412 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I could... I just wanted to try the leg way
< 1342114598 792038 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any esolangs where only symbols (not keywords) are used (similar to APL)
< 1342114744 712159 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Brainfuck.
< 1342114794 268140 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And dozens of others)
< 1342114892 99450 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sorry, should have been more specific. I meant a large set of symbols
< 1342114932 951106 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would include unicode symbols such as ∊, ∘, × or ↓
< 1342115031 239283 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think I should have said "are there any esolangs where mainly non-ASCII symbols (not keywords) are used (similar to APL)"
< 1342115177 516688 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342115178 985412 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1342115336 87636 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: SADOL
< 1342115360 829600 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm
< 1342115363 967010 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not really
< 1342115419 394549 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: well it uses quite a lot of symbols but I think they are all ASCII(?) 
< 1342115427 877317 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup
< 1342115436 428575 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't read the whole question
< 1342115519 857580 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :now 
< 1342115532 46664 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to fight with undocumented peg leg
< 1342115642 146391 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-99.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left
< 1342116113 394885 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: I don't think there's any point writing such an esolang, because APL's already esoteric ;)
< 1342116214 258090 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: Perhaps that's true indeed ;)
< 1342116236 127416 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, did anything come of your brackets idea?
< 1342116271 62837 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundfury: well I don't think it was intention
< 1342116344 155432 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think APL is one of those languages where opinion differs on whether it fits in the "esoteric" category, since it was made and used for real purposes
< 1342116362 290253 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has been made esoteric by context?
< 1342116388 350342 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A programming language written in Linear B would be pretty esoteric nowadays, regardless of its origin
< 1342116397 409913 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, this is scary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)#Extensions
< 1342116408 967172 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOP, .NET, *ActiveX*, XML-array conversion primitives, all in APL :S
< 1342116686 40118 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342116693 289370 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1342117219 847131 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :what
< 1342117221 663138 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :ast.c:47:31: error: C does not support default arguments
< 1342117225 422771 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- clang
< 1342117343 255943 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, isn't that just true? 
< 1342117480 723955 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: nope, not really.
< 1342117501 462496 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: as far as I know C does support them (well normally)
< 1342117512 950629 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: C++ does; C certainly doesn't.
< 1342117532 862638 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, C doesn't support default arguments.
< 1342117535 124601 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If by "default arguments" you mean the usual int foo(int x = 0) {...} kind of things.
< 1342117535 734780 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is good because they're the devil.
< 1342117537 934089 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea where you'd get the notion that it does.
< 1342117549 755900 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: By compiling all your C code with a C++ compiler? :p
< 1342117558 103287 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*vomit*
< 1342117564 450768 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? Well probably I'm always using C++
< 1342117566 46665 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ FAQ advocates that. :p
< 1342117579 515490 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ FAQ advocates a lot of bad ideas.
< 1342117588 618309 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance: using C++.
< 1342117598 620020 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I like C++.
< 1342117605 263970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The C++ FAQ advocates that?
< 1342117612 636147 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: Well there's no accounting for taste *shrugs*
< 1342117644 529920 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I have some good reasons (well I think they are good). But I can see why people dislike the language too.
< 1342117644 758657 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BTW there is another way to handle this whole thing: compile all your code (even your C-style code) using a C++ compiler. That pretty much eliminates the need to mix C and C++, plus it will cause you to be more careful (and possibly —hopefully!— discover some bugs) in your C-style code. The down-side is that you'll need to update your C-style code in certain ways, basically because the ...
< 1342117650 774965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... C++ compiler is more careful/picky than your C compiler. The point is that the effort required to clean up your C-style code may be less than the effort required to mix C and C++, and as a bonus you get cleaned up C-style code." (C++ FAQ)
< 1342117672 319703 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1342117684 226956 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, it'll even make things cleaner.
< 1342117703 843487 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bit of C tomfoolery I've been using for years, buffer.h.
< 1342117707 935826 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It /does not compile/ with a C++ compiler.
< 1342117712 810410 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it in virtually every project I write.
< 1342117716 938639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should clean it up so that it does.
< 1342117718 326419 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am wholly satisfied with this situation.
< 1342117726 589970 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might find bugs.
< 1342117731 435811 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't *just* compile C code with C++
< 1342117737 42631 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilers
< 1342117740 292769 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*duh*
< 1342117841 860272 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, :(
< 1342117849 220816 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_of_C_and_C%2B%2B seems like there is a nice page if you want to make the change
< 1342117894 355110 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c int f(int c = 0) { return c; } int main(void) { return f(); }
< 1342117895 954554 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile.
< 1342117896 720979 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int f(int c = 0) { return c; } int main(void) { return f(); }
< 1342117902 25101 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1342117908 885237 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-142-200.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1342117910 578723 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342117910 986370 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A skientifik eksperiment.)
< 1342117941 121903 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: In case it wasn't obvious, I am not only satisfied, but overjoyed to be writing code that does not work with C++ compilers.
< 1342117971 190573 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c int main() { int x; printf("%d\n", sizeof(x)); }
< 1342117973 669893 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :4
< 1342117974 882287 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int main() { int x; printf("%d\n", sizeof(x)); }
< 1342117978 783149 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile.
< 1342117982 545035 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bam.
< 1342118005 500372 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some time ago we had a discussion where we iterated different ways of making code that compiles on both but does different things. It had all the usual suspects, like character constant type differences etc.
< 1342118008 186996 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: don't you miss the 1000 lines of error messages caused by a typo in a template name?
< 1342118153 211226 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of liked http://p.zem.fi/zdga even though it's one of the cheaty ways.
< 1342118191 574534 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Also shame on you for the above; should be %zu or (int)sizeof ...
< 1342118217 818925 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes yes it should, but that's not what I was demonstrating. Also your code is horrible and evil and you should feel bad.
< 1342118522 165575 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: okay, I feel like there's a joke you're making that I'm not getting.
< 1342118540 714350 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said that buffer.h doesn't compile with a C++ compiler, and implied that it does compile with a C compiler.
< 1342118554 867511 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing that buffer.h uses some C tomfoolery that C++ doesn't support.  Is that correct?
< 1342118565 356966 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Tomfoolery”
< 1342118572 965487 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I demonstrated exactly the “tomfoolery” above.
< 1342118647 216186 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You actually have to *work* to get C working in C++.
< 1342118650 140890 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :C tomfoolery would be the absence of strong type checking? :D
< 1342118668 947011 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Merely implicit casts from void* don't work.
< 1342118682 369155 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: If you think that C++ has strong type checking, you're an idiot.
< 1342118683 626108 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that comes up whenever you do memory allocation in idiomatic C.
< 1342118727 445691 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int main() { int x; return printf("%zu\n", sizeof x) < 0 ? EXIT_FAILURE : EXIT_SUCCESS; }
< 1342118730 440698 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It merely lacks the biggest hole in C's weak typing.
< 1342118731 368592 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile.
< 1342118743 910867 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And not even.
< 1342118747 743205 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: some statement that is
< 1342118756 240991 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :void* casts are still perfectly feasible in C++.
< 1342118761 514905 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're just *explicit*.
< 1342118786 638720 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having explicit casts does not mean you don't have strong type checking
< 1342118788 461258 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You simply need to say "Yes, I mean to abuse the weak typing".
< 1342118810 980530 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnotherTest> Having explicit casts does not mean you don't have strong type checking // having explicit or implicit casts which may succeed when the true type is not as specified is by definition lacking strong typing.
< 1342118833 596067 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: There's no type checking on the casts is the thing!
< 1342118848 959918 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :the programmer just decides to not use strong checking by casting
< 1342118853 797981 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're arguing that C++ without casts is strongly typed, that may (or may not) be the case, but is rather boring.
< 1342118866 708195 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's not since no array bounds checking *shrugs*
< 1342118867 315986 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the language still offers it(although it can be chosen not to use it)
< 1342118876 156906 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, there is no strong checking by default
< 1342118883 640085 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: C++ still has implicit casts.
< 1342118891 668855 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just significantly fewer.
< 1342118903 141896 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I thought it only had typesafe implicit casts though?
< 1342118910 682879 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no implicit pointer casts whatsoever
< 1342118914 157347 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm
< 1342118918 886652 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except between related classes of course
< 1342118964 619065 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Eh, probably. ... Except that the type promotion from float to double might give you unwanted excess precision.
< 1342118982 285834 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mind you, you get the same damned problem just using x87 floats.)
< 1342118982 498418 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Bjarne Stroustrup at least claims he added strong checking, does that make him an idiot?
< 1342118987 993909 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: That seems unrelated to type safety, to me.
< 1342118994 845813 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Meh, probably.
< 1342119010 2648 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: Big name implied big thing, is big name an idiot?
< 1342119021 904731 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Base *p; Subclass *q = dynamic_cast<Subclass*>(p); will check the type for you during the cast, if you like.
< 1342119047 237884 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: At no point did I make the claim that safe casts don't exist >_>
< 1342119055 405807 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: Have you played with Haskell before?
< 1342119056 261678 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although they do have the ugliest cast syntax conceivable :)
< 1342119075 968559 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or an ML-variant?)
< 1342119088 933492 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: *That* is static strong types.
< 1342119090 55030 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkhq_: I intend on doing so. I regret to say I have not yet really looked into it well.
< 1342119140 602186 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well C++ has at least *some* static type checking
< 1342119151 455945 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does C.
< 1342119157 340872 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/static/strong static
< 1342119177 776050 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has less for sure
< 1342119193 953337 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342119195 46071 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And both are fairly low on the scale in an absolute sense.
< 1342119195 347499 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it's meaningful for a language to have “some” strong typing.
< 1342119223 971345 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it probably is; something is better then nothing in this case I think
< 1342119227 486201 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, you can consider typing to be a continuüm between weak and strong.
< 1342119228 693936 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than
< 1342119247 728009 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1342119254 581463 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I challenge you to find a single English word in which “uu” is a diaeresis.
< 1342119259 728140 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do this, then C and C++ aren't absolutely at the weak end, but aren't *that* far fron there anyways.
< 1342119260 857775 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm
< 1342119263 803180 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sory, is /not/.
< 1342119268 90291 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_X
< 1342119270 429900 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sorry
< 1342119303 557284 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anything with double-u. Which in historical writing was literally written "uu" or "vv". :)
< 1342119311 882621 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Pff. Cheating.
< 1342119320 701669 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :UUhat do you mean, cheating? :P
< 1342119340 216485 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, "muumuu".
< 1342119359 222574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"uuhat", or "uû" as it is often written.
< 1342119371 431343 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vacuum", in at least US dialects.
< 1342119376 820284 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point.
< 1342119379 451088 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uû do you mean it's not written like that? 
< 1342119386 589480 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Good'n!
< 1342119387 739969 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vacuum" is definitely not a diaeresis in US English.
< 1342119391 625853 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I accept your diaeresis.
< 1342119396 862383 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: \o/
< 1342119397 61337 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :69         |
< 1342119397 260631 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :69        /´\
< 1342119398 198131 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Mark)
< 1342119415 30189 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ removes one gap in C's typing (others too, maybe?), and adds a new type hierarchy which is itself, without explicit casts, strongly typed. To me, arguing that it's “more” strongly typed based solely on the grounds that its completely new additions are themselves “more” strongly typed seems odd, particularly since we came to this discussion via compiling C code in C++, so would not be writing idiomatic C++ anyway.
< 1342119439 300569 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And would be having to move away from idiomatic C to do that as well.
< 1342119449 619688 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342119471 258012 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using implicit void* casts is *very* idiomatic C)
< 1342119504 478215 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: adding a strong type check for any language feature could be seen as an addition to the language (is one), so I'm not sure if your point is valid
< 1342119575 491717 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: Eh, you're still dealing with a language where char* can alias any other pointer. :)
< 1342119590 14745 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no array bounds checking, and ALL POINTERS ARE ARRAYS.
< 1342119604 497115 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as to porting C to C++: It's probably not worth it
< 1342119605 843839 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :SomeObjectType *foo = new SomeObjectType; foo[-1].lol
< 1342119624 100716 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::vector
< 1342119626 506312 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!
< 1342119637 559992 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::string
< 1342119638 963553 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!
< 1342119642 279733 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NULL[foo].lol
< 1342119663 419166 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I /think/ that would need a cast as NULL is the wrong type ;)
< 1342119682 611873 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Kay, fine. ((uintptr_t)NULL)[foo]
< 1342119689 29615 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can always circumvent static checks(delete nullptr; all day long)
< 1342119691 174925 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mucho better.
< 1342119701 287807 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well maybe not always, but most of the time
< 1342119715 411791 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just 0[foo].
< 1342119735 514868 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: If you'd like to play the “define all holes as circumvention” game, we can do that just as easily with C.
< 1342119763 693543 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'd still be dealing in a language where a char* aliases all pointers.
< 1342119769 185586 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can alias.
< 1342119792 532306 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: my_function(1, 2, 3); /* but wants 4 args */
< 1342119822 369281 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call that circumvention, it's just human error not found by the compiler
< 1342119831 613745 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: That's illegal with a complete prototype in C, and legal with varargs in either.
< 1342119855 454065 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*(void(*)(int,int,int))myfunction)(1,2,3); // Suck it.
< 1342119872 510947 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1342119888 931640 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm seriously trying to figure out wtf AnotherTest is trying to demonstrate here... JavaScript has that flaw, C does not.
< 1342119891 176558 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding std::vector, I think it's kinda funny that C++ goes and makes "void f(const char* const* p); ... char **q; f(q);" legal, but then when you feel your conscience and want to make that a vector, it's no longer possible, since std::vector<char *> certainly can't go to a function expecting const std::vector<const char *>.
< 1342119930 720347 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, are there any good reason for Tcl arrays to not be first-class?
< 1342119934 620629 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk, the sudden change in comonad seemed very sudden
< 1342119943 88915 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah. Templates are weird.
< 1342119961 104980 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes: Tcl "arrays" are nothing more than variables with a certain class of names.
< 1342119974 11953 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: They just happen to have a more convenient implementation behind the scenes.
< 1342120015 41371 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: In *principle*, Tcl could be implemented without them actually existing. The array proc would just have to do more work.
< 1342120055 808279 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Also, beware that they're poorly named.
< 1342120057 264142 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, but why have these non-first-class things with no built-in first-class alternative until 8.5?
< 1342120070 740727 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Tcl arrays are hash tables.
< 1342120092 228978 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, hash maps.
< 1342120138 247279 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Because they're not even there at all. That they're hash maps rather than just variables of name in the form foo(bar) is an implementation detail.
< 1342120214 696052 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, what did people do before 8.5 in places where someone would use a dictionary?
< 1342120237 892314 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://ideone.com/d7Dv3
< 1342120280 824488 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use variables of form foo(bar)?
< 1342120291 938191 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Also, keep in mind, strictly speaking dicts don't exist either.
< 1342120316 286086 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: That they are hash tables rather than strings of a particular form is an implementation detail.
< 1342120317 25749 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342120344 860260 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: "That's illegal WITH A COMPLETE PROTOTYPE in C". The particular example you gave (expects 4) doesn't fit your rather unlikely pattern at all.
< 1342120390 955880 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: many code has been written like that I believe
< 1342120395 315259 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Everything in Tcl is a string. Some commands happen to treat strings in a particular way. The Tcl implementation stores strings in a format more convenient for those commands as an implementation detail.
< 1342120425 183007 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342120425 695435 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :and writing void as arguments doesn't seem logic
< 1342120430 713361 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1342120437 448252 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe because the creator of C++ invented that)
< 1342120448 240706 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Even friggin' *numbers* aren't really first-class in Tcl. They're just strings containing digits.
< 1342120474 839617 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-17.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1342120479 709617 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all well and good, but I can
< 1342120487 761808 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't pass an array to a proc the way I can pass a dict
< 1342120496 973222 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: The example you showed only has issues because a zero-argument function written as "()" in C is, for historical/hysterical reasons, variadic. It ONLY causes an issue if: 1) You are actually calling incorrectly-written zero-parameter functions this way, which is not a type safety issue, 2) you have written your prototypes incorrectly, or 3) you are calling functions without prototypes, which is a warning by default in every modern C compiler.
< 1342120508 286020 :augur_!~augur@c-75-74-129-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1342120510 272731 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: [array get foo]
< 1342120524 889119 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-129-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342120542 716458 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The (2) case is only harmful in the case where you've written your prototypes as variadic even though your functions take multiple arguments, which is enormously unlikely.
< 1342120543 694222 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sorry bout that. you mean the major version jump?
< 1342120549 111590 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah
< 1342120558 772581 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not complaining, it just seemed to come out of nowhere?
< 1342120592 447470 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Or, pass the name of the array and the proc peeks up the stack using upvar.
< 1342120601 158263 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1342120612 235958 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, are arrays and dicts identical in terms of their string ..... I don't want to say "representation", although that word works for arrays
< 1342120612 570489 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: However, I am inclined to agree with you that this is a second C hole that C++ plugged. This sort of “implicit” variadicity should never have existed.
< 1342120615 225732 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he's gone ...
< 1342120622 854142 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It is "string representation".
< 1342120632 488923 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: And, yes, they are the same string representation.
< 1342120722 623793 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, do you have opinions of the various OO libraries?
< 1342120728 441994 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read a blog post praising Snit
< 1342120731 340616 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda like Snit.
< 1342120742 614135 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Tcl 8.6's OO is based on XOTcl
< 1342120766 75487 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but you're probably going to pretend it doesn't exist.
< 1342120770 306434 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1342120787 764469 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tcl 8.6 OO is intended for use as a more efficient backend of the various OO libraries.
< 1342120794 850748 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah
< 1342120797 933354 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Pain to use straight.
< 1342120829 577916 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would it be a pain to use straight if it's XOTcl-inspired? Missing a few XOTcl features, but is XOTcl a pain?
< 1342120941 844183 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think "using Gobjects straight"-ish.
< 1342120976 746112 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-129-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1342121004 899185 :augur!~augur@c-75-74-129-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342121021 693182 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never touched GObjects
< 1342121079 723523 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is something like this morally acceptable, or is there a better command:
< 1342121091 295954 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dict create {*}{a 5 b 6 d 7}
< 1342121109 296415 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, if the dictionary will have a lot of items and I want to space things out on multiple lines
< 1342121178 484415 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't you just do set foo {a 5 b 7 d 7} ?
< 1342121261 403018 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any efficiency reasons not to?
< 1342121291 283063 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, not really. Behind the scenes it'll get converted to a dict internally as soon as you use it as one.
< 1342121302 371583 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it essentially the same cost as that dict create call.
< 1342121317 148404 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah\
< 1342121327 600811 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Back
< 1342121528 486939 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, why does the Tcl community love Metakit so much, and why aren't there Metakit bindings into languages other than Python Tcl and I forget the third?
< 1342121606 177097 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It's friggin' handy being able to stick a Tcl app into a single binary.
< 1342121633 934389 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLite couldn't have been used for the purpose?
< 1342121651 792025 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it could have been.
< 1342121658 406170 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342121687 794372 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Tcl app in a single binary thing is one of the things drawing me to Tcl actually
< 1342121722 465047 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also means you get to be bitter at Java in a bit...
< 1342121731 557231 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1342121785 204498 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a while, Sun was promoting Tcl as a write-once run-everywhere language.
< 1342121788 842987 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They dropped it for Java.
< 1342121812 901552 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1342121822 721054 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah
< 1342121874 39565 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, modern Fythe has no binary format, for no good reason.
< 1342121896 420007 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it cheating for a binary format to involve zlib?
< 1342121920 736691 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would it be cheating?
< 1342121940 104316 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's a way to hide the fact that my binary format is a text format ^_<
< 1342121952 789471 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's actually work to implement DEFLATE? :P
< 1342121976 113848 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor with 64 or 96 and it will look like binary gobbledygook, probably
< 1342121987 478121 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1342122001 773493 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only sensible portable format for Fythe is s-expressions.
< 1342122017 905902 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of, *god dammit why is my CRC32 off*.
< 1342122033 926451 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping for "The only sensible portable format for Fythe is gobbledygook"
< 1342122040 30562 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1342122045 434197 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tcllib has an approximatley yearly release schedule. Version 1.10 has been released September 12, 2007."
< 1342122082 467399 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/SCTK Everything works except that sometimes the CRC-32 is wrong.
< 1342122095 49745 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*But only sometimes*.
< 1342122095 933693 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1342122100 408718 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, with a system like Fythe, what I really need is a portable “VM image” format.
< 1342122203 388543 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it occurs to me that I need to send doubles over a network.
< 1342122228 326397 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, before we start, a file written in C can perfectly well link with C++ libraries, right?
< 1342122245 317863 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, but will it work? you can never know
< 1342122249 392231 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor each character with the result of the last character after it was xor'ed?
< 1342122253 245351 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, right.
< 1342122274 484356 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Yes, just have appropriate use of extern "C" in the header files..
< 1342122303 646202 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, good.  Let me just rewrite all hundred or so header files to use that.
< 1342122305 463477 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, done.
< 1342122312 521220 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't figured out if you're supposed to be able to rely on that (is anything about combining C and C++ actually defined by the standard?), but in practice it's fine
< 1342122323 726388 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :... provided you have extern "C" where appropriate
< 1342122327 303621 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: what else would extern "C" be for?
< 1342122330 187641 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes, extern "C" is part of the spec.
< 1342122341 492245 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: invoking undefined behavior or something?
< 1342122351 702093 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, isn't pretty much every programming language ever supposed to interact with C?
< 1342122352 231147 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's functionally a light-weight FFI.
< 1342122407 700110 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, sending doubles over a network.  Can I just cast a double* to a void* and read eight bytes?
< 1342122444 174622 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would Snit need to exist if there was one Tcl OO system from the start?
< 1342122453 129387 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can definitely read sizeof(double) bytes, but I don't know how strictly defined the internal representation of double is
< 1342122462 510070 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because one of the key ideas seems to be treating any object from any object system as an object
< 1342122483 56534 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there was one Tcl OO system, there wouldn't be competing systems to treat identically
< 1342122484 884155 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that "double" never means anything other than a double-precision floating-point.
< 1342122534 704532 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if I treat a double as bytes on one system, and then treat those same bytes as a double on a *different* system, am I guaranteed to have the same double each time, or not?
< 1342122657 798412 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2701529/recording-reading-c-doubles-in-the-ieee-754-interchange-format suggests you cannot assume that
< 1342123027 260183 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342123045 642334 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does lightly touching a "dead" pixel on a TFT sometimes fix the issue? I had a red subpixel stuck in the on-state today, and touching it gently (through a microfibre cloth) fixed the issue. Wikipedia mentions that it can sometimes fix the issue but doesn't give any explanation why that is.
< 1342123045 846519 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
< 1342123052 161538 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages
< 1342123052 385815 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti said 1d 5h 30m 51s ago: in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti>
< 1342123052 584134 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P)
< 1342123138 743534 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, speaking of cp, that is like one thing that annoyed me on Android. I had to install busybox using cat to copy it from the sdcard
< 1342123150 922186 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1342123166 716063 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. why is implementing cp so hard?
< 1342123208 682912 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is not actually an sdcard, just a very weird fuse mapping of a directory in the internal flash memory that mangles permissions to look behave kind of like vfat.
< 1342123222 551810 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/look//
< 1342123237 266419 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note to self: proof read /after/ editing)
< 1342123295 856600 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of that, why is the MTP behaviour in ubuntu so erratic.
< 1342123316 34949 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked for a while out of box, and now it doesn't.
< 1342123484 195384 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1342123610 832622 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-144-151.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342123615 10255 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342123683 170559 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: You are *not* guaranteed that at all.
< 1342123699 711984 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: A "double" can be any sort of floating point number.
< 1342123714 918650 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As can a float or a long double.
< 1342123796 973536 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Besides which, you couldn't assume that *even if* you knew doubles where always IEEE 754 double-precision floats.
< 1342123801 850746 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Endianness!
< 1342123878 58077 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be portable you either need to deal in the string representation, or encode into the interchange format manually.
< 1342123944 562654 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, C?
< 1342123951 619582 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes.
< 1342123954 685732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so iirc there are some defines from C99 and onwards
< 1342123961 956941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that tell you if it is IEEE or not
< 1342124013 875457 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, you can tell *if* it's IEEE floats or not. You still have to handle endianness.
< 1342124019 851379 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, autoconf
< 1342124024 437426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or similar)
< 1342124033 439573 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1342124057 95222 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Wrong answer!
< 1342124065 998848 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh?
< 1342124089 882972 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It feels very stupid and wrong to go #if BIG_ENDIAN swap_bytes(); #endif
< 1342124107 384426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget #elsif defined(PDP_ENDIAN)
< 1342124131 713994 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When what you're actually *doing* is just serialization to a known format.
< 1342124146 453898 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your code *cares* about the system's endianness you're doing it wrong.
< 1342124198 520610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway you could just do #ifdef BIG_EDIAN\n#define htond ...
< 1342124217 621229 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :since htonl/htons and so on are essentially that, only defined by the system
< 1342124262 521390 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Or you could be sane and just do char *serialised_foo = {foo, foo >> 8, foo >> 16, foo >> 24}
< 1342124263 387901 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: knowing about endianness is wrong
< 1342124286 664041 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342124286 898068 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: only works if foo is unsigned.)
< 1342124299 178948 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing portable formats in the sane way will not require having any clue what format you're starting with
< 1342124302 184501 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well, the system doesn't provide a hton*/ntoh* set of calls for floating point, which would be really useful
< 1342124302 383184 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and uint32_t)
< 1342124323 329933 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :<pikhq> Vorpal: Or you could be sane and just do char *serialised_foo = {foo, foo >> 8, foo >> 16, foo >> 24} <-- foo was a floating point no?
< 1342124333 131165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1342124342 926965 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you serialise a floating point to a fixed point number?
< 1342124358 777790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1342124371 134087 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does >> do on a double?
< 1342124386 800641 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342124399 284335 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is it fair to say that it's impossible to have an object capability system in Tcl because any unique object could be brute-forced?
< 1342124413 784 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342124415 590713 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Seems so.
< 1342124416 360456 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think you shouldn't do that
< 1342124426 926021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you mean what pikhq_ suggested?
< 1342124433 653735 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, that's kind of sad
< 1342124439 490691 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, or what I suggested?
< 1342124445 615301 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I was suggesting that on a uint32_t.
< 1342124447 891478 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do >> on a double
< 1342124456 574047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, doesn't solve it if you have a double
< 1342124463 527082 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I am more alarmed by the impossibility of code-walking
< 1342124465 685263 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The correct serialization on a double is more complex.
< 1342124476 53966 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I thought that was the topic though
< 1342124481 679220 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: solutions for uint32_t are not generally applicable on doubles
< 1342124492 518510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, anyway for uint32_t you just use htonl/ntohl 
< 1342124495 523193 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want it in IEEE 754 exchange format, you will need to actually compute what the double is in that format.
< 1342124517 831833 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :       uint32_t ntohl(uint32_t netlong);
< 1342124524 387000 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *No you don't*, you pretend those stupid god-damned functions don't exist, byte-swapping is *the wrong solution*.
< 1342124524 590710 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to my man page
< 1342124542 294309 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What you do is serialize things in the format you want.
< 1342124544 921393 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's all.
< 1342124548 403079 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, so how do you work with *nix sockets?
< 1342124555 667423 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-150-115.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342124557 670142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc several of those calls require those functions
< 1342124572 705355 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You call it a god-damned retarded API, and deal.
< 1342124573 853420 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, is there a reason tcllib has two different OO libraries?
< 1342124579 534574 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1342124581 796910 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pretend that htonl are not endian-related but are "silly things you call to work with unix sockets"
< 1342124588 314047 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Otherwise, you serialize things in the format you want.
< 1342124601 840283 :stanley!~stanley@unaffiliated/stanley QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out
< 1342124662 207048 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: If it's a pure Tcl library, it can go in Tcllib. There's not much vetting for redundancy.
< 1342124683 96646 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why exactly are those functions silly though? Silly to use with the socket API yes (would be more sensible if it used native endian and converted internally). But not silly in general
< 1342124744 676791 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because they're up there with casting pointers to and from int in correctness.
< 1342124765 226697 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that Tequila would be a very very good thing for use in implementing Network Headache
< 1342124776 641709 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You are not trying to convert from host byte order to network byte order, you are merely serializing data.
< 1342124786 602664 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, there is a difference though, POSIX specifies hton*/ntoh*, but casting pointers is very clearly undefined.
< 1342124790 114812 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So god-damned serialize the data.
< 1342124814 227360 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I'm now wondering if I should implement Network Headache
< 1342124820 33070 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, you have a point in that serialising data is a different task
< 1342124828 199758 :stanley!~stanley@cpc19-neat4-2-0-cust37.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342124828 596674 :stanley!~stanley@cpc19-neat4-2-0-cust37.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT :Changing host
< 1342124828 795282 :stanley!~stanley@unaffiliated/stanley JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342124834 26703 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, new esolang?
< 1342124845 746469 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, old one
< 1342124846 283308 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache
< 1342124848 439658 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1342124859 195751 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....oh, hmm
< 1342124894 986009 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially because hton*/ntoh* only helps you in the case when you're trying to bludgeon uint32_ts and uint16_ts into big-endian format anyways.
< 1342124899 493438 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's already an implementiation in Pythonm
< 1342124914 39720 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. they don't even solve the problem.
< 1342124941 888004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would require always connected. Reminds me of certain forms of DRM
< 1342124953 159790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the page that Sgeo_ linked that is)
< 1342124957 319270 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a lot of programmers share the incorrect view on this (byteswapping and endian-#ifdeffing vs serialization), I wonder if there's a succinct description somewhere on why they're doing it wrong
< 1342124973 520142 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, btw for serialising, what about singed integers?
< 1342124996 343635 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have issues there (2-complement, 1-complement, sign bit)
< 1342125002 90069 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *Clearly* you'll need to write them out in the format you want.
< 1342125016 766592 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :sing them backwards until they have been unsung
< 1342125030 144502 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: If you want 2s complement, you'll need to stick the absolute value in an unsigned number, bitwise not, and add 1.
< 1342125040 834184 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, and using text files is even worse. What if you move the file to an EBCDIC machine (from an ASCII machine)
< 1342125045 651143 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's either that or assume you're dealing with numbers of known representation.
< 1342125067 178392 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Nah, assume UTF-8. Anything else is broken in profound ways.
< 1342125104 39024 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the conversion to unsigned defined to work the same way as "reinterpreting the bits as 2's complement" would?
< 1342125105 416729 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, the reality however is that one of the most popular operating systems use UTF-16. Which is indeed broken (BOM urgh)
< 1342125111 502930 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Is it?
< 1342125116 307687 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the most popular OS
< 1342125136 574496 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, it's "add 2^n until the value is in range of the unsigned type"
< 1342125143 320634 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, Windows is a maximally broken platform.
< 1342125143 528739 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :where n is the number of bits in the type
< 1342125170 131170 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You cannot write compliant C that handles all filenames on the platform currently.
< 1342125181 973342 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Okay, then.
< 1342125195 778743 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, just cast to unsigned and you've got it in 2's complement.
< 1342125208 719602 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1342125216 489526 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember thinking "oh, how clever of them to avoid invoking 2's complement in this definition"
< 1342125219 792354 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that makes *that* easier.
< 1342125242 173889 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, actually couldn't you use the posix layer on windows
< 1342125257 622734 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what that does wrt UTF-8/UTF-16
< 1342125266 584503 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably something completely broken
< 1342125286 847298 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342125288 336171 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it converts to ASCII replacing all characters above 0x7f with ?
< 1342125441 962328 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm pretty sure that just hands you the UTF-8 file names.
< 1342125456 332922 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Windows filesystems post-LFN deal in Unicode natively.
< 1342125462 521222 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1342125468 871093 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LFN?
< 1342125472 648100 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-150-50.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1342125472 846958 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long file names.
< 1342125563 234756 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That legacy encodings are the *only* supported encodings for char strings on Win32 is just a stupid, stupid design decision that they *work* to maintain.
< 1342125624 466997 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does NTFS store strings internally?
< 1342125631 160442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the filenames I mean
< 1342125631 888404 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure UTF-16.
< 1342125646 250949 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like FAT LFNs.
< 1342125651 5254 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1342125680 477241 :rapido!~rapido@37.251.58.128 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342125850 110818 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, when you think about it, UTF8 is pretty crazy too
< 1342125860 161043 :rapido!~rapido@37.251.58.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone fond of prolog unification?
< 1342125875 604535 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: How so?
< 1342125893 841668 :rapido!~rapido@37.251.58.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unification is more generic than pattern matching
< 1342125895 682166 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Keeping in mind that all Unicode transformation formats are inherently variable-width.
< 1342125921 116589 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is basically a compression scheme for UCS4, specialized to favour western texts
< 1342125938 380760 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :using UCS4 and gzip/deflate/etc where needed would make more sense
< 1342125954 556050 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. Except that that's not the design goal.
< 1342125985 843168 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The design goal is not to break everything which assumes a string is composed of series of bytes.
< 1342126028 206638 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it so that Unicode 'just works' on nearly everything.
< 1342126038 375274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. Backward compatibility often (not always!) result in crazy and/or bad designs though
< 1342126040 574486 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except when a *certain* OS vendor actively works to break it.
< 1342126159 464048 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1342126166 837464 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342126191 632772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not considering backward compatibility however, UTF-8 (and all other variable-width encodings) are however stupid.
< 1342126204 932799 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there is a lot of stupidity in unicode in general from that perspective
< 1342126221 471728 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are actual unicode-specific compression schemes
< 1342126224 453075 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :more complicated than utf-8
< 1342126234 470404 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you consider variable width encodings to be stupid?
< 1342126242 704243 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly some characters occur more often than others
< 1342126251 562999 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BMP characters occur vastly more often than non-BMP characters
< 1342126272 191935 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Dude, Unicode could be *much* clearer if we went more variable-width on it.
< 1342126282 238452 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no sense in all the precomposed hangul jamo.
< 1342126328 954171 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, in principle hanzi could all be a bunch of radicals. (admittedly, this'd make it hard to *render*. But, a couple hundred entries and it'd be Complete.)
< 1342126358 805502 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :<kmc> clearly some characters occur more often than others <-- varies between languages
< 1342126366 84800 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, some are rare in all languages
< 1342126387 793472 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But getting rid of the precomposed hangul jamo would be quite beneficial and an easy change.
< 1342126399 431133 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(given that a system already has to deal with jamo composition)
< 1342126416 256186 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: everything outside the BMP is extremely rare in all extant languages
< 1342126421 763334 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as long as we make the minimum size 8 bits we will have to favour some languages 
< 1342126437 616984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, sure, but all of BMP doesn't fit in a byte
< 1342126440 499535 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1342126447 86497 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what
< 1342126485 983273 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But the 7 bit range of Unicode is profoundly common in real-world data. Even in languages that don't use them at all.
< 1342126503 52949 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(courtesy of nearly all text exchange formats being English-based)
< 1342126534 786277 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it wasn't those bits of stupidity I was referring to in specific for the crazy bits of unicode. I was thinking about stuff like double-width letters having separate code points, or the blackboard bold math chars
< 1342126540 586164 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of those are formatting
< 1342126551 491672 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't really belong in unicode
< 1342126566 556254 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, those are kinda ludicrous.
< 1342126580 537565 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There for backwards-compat reasons.
< 1342126592 967945 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the zero width space? I guess there must be some use case for it, but I can't think of one.
< 1342126609 721461 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's necessary for some languages.
< 1342126617 692147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what way?
< 1342126640 75724 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry, that's zero-width non-joiner...
< 1342126683 707886 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Basically to indicate that a ligature is inappropriate.
< 1342126690 294892 :rapido!~rapido@37.251.58.128 QUIT :Quit: rapido
< 1342126693 158885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't see a zero width space when written on paper (which all current scripts were intended for, or papyrus, or clay tablets and so on), so how could it change anything semantically
< 1342126723 138391 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, isn't zero width space separate from zero-width non-joiner though?
< 1342126729 776577 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they are.
< 1342126736 901832 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The zero-width non-joiner is semantics.
< 1342126739 108381 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is the point of the zero width space
< 1342126764 403567 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The zero-width space is... Typesetting?
< 1342126774 979129 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should indeed not be part of unicode.
< 1342126778 462280 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, doesn't really belong in Unicode.
< 1342126789 361732 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless we're going to expand the scope of it profoundly.
< 1342126794 440025 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I'd call ludicrous
< 1342126795 146707 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1342126826 784116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly
< 1342126863 920293 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the code point numbering is kind of weird. I seem to remember there are several separate blocks with math related symbols
< 1342126872 933341 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why
< 1342126915 456210 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-146-173-158.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1342126946 217286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from ASCII, is there anything else that the unicode codepoints are actually compatible with?
< 1342126959 844102 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :latin1?
< 1342126976 478699 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, doesn't åäö map differently between latin1 and unicode iirc?
< 1342126981 997535 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No.
< 1342126983 172580 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that just with UTF-8?
< 1342127000 862314 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second block is directly ISO-8859-1.
< 1342127009 674500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their UTF-8 expansions are two-byte, of course.
< 1342127010 173267 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8 encodes them differently, but the low 8 bits of Unicode are ISO-8859-1.
< 1342127010 868859 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, utf-8 will result in different sequences of bytes, but the numbering of the codepoints match latin-1
< 1342127019 480978 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Unicode CODEPOINTS are latin1 compatible, but there is no useful Unicode ENCODING that is.
< 1342127023 511933 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone the same thing at once!
< 1342127027 546936 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES
< 1342127047 331146 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah
< 1342127058 638339 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero-width no-break space (i.e. the same character as the BOM) has the excuse of having same semantics as zero-width word joiner but existing before that was added; the zero-width space (that is used for marking word break opportunities in scripts with no visible word spacing) is quite typographical, though.
< 1342127079 461074 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there is always UCS1 ;)
< 1342127079 825338 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can convert ISO-8859-1 to UTF-16 just by adding NULL. :)
< 1342127088 741255 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Good one. :)
< 1342127092 33098 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: “useful”
< 1342127127 806337 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it is highly useful. It offers perfect interoperability with a large group of legacy systems!
< 1342127138 868420 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also (obviously) convert back from UTF-16 to ISO-8859-1 by dropping every other byte, and barfing if the dropped byte's not zero.
< 1342127144 647150 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :UCS1?
< 1342127168 445999 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: 1-byte encoding of Unicode.
< 1342127176 431624 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?
< 1342127178 827236 :nothing!cfe43d80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.228.61.128 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342127179 125738 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: don't listen to Vorpal :)
< 1342127187 960407 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti_: Formed by analogy with UCS-2 and UCS-4.
< 1342127194 664873 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And UCS-16.
< 1342127203 475744 :nothing!cfe43d80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.228.61.128 NICK :Guest33002
< 1342127211 555778 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome Guest33002
< 1342127214 154179 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the advantage where one codepoint fits neatly in a SSE register.
< 1342127215 88927 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that would be one crazy encoding
< 1342127219 537923 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest33002: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
< 1342127219 828351 :Guest33002!cfe43d80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.228.61.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves
< 1342127238 492750 :Guest33002!cfe43d80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.228.61.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will need to remember how to use IRC -- It's been a little while.
< 1342127240 210295 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :UCS-16 allows a full GUID per character
< 1342127243 686036 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :UCS-0.5. 4 bits per codepoint. Need letters? TOO BAD.
< 1342127250 878561 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1342127256 217223 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about baudot
< 1342127271 301298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, UCS32 would work well with AVX
< 1342127294 327179 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it was 5bit
< 1342127300 582894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, though people might accidentally confuse UCS-16 and UCS-32 with UCS-2 and UCS-4, assuming that the numbers are referring to bits.
< 1342127326 701525 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and then there is the small matter of it covering a superset of unicode
< 1342127351 223179 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-2
< 1342127353 934221 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be possible
< 1342127358 321384 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily.
< 1342127380 968719 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1342127389 131672 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Almost, it wouldn't really be “UTF” though, in that it wouldn't fit the patterns of the other.
< 1342127390 962156 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D
< 1342127399 507127 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: like with UCS-4, there is no problem if the encoding has plenty of extra space
< 1342127402 419287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway one issue with any variaible-width encoding is that strlen() is O(n)
< 1342127405 489493 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: But yeah, it should be possible to have a per-bit “there are more bits” bit.
< 1342127437 696136 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and strlen is normally O(1)?
< 1342127441 588398 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-7 is quite different from UTF-8 anyway.
< 1342127454 901811 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote <fizzie> Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily.
< 1342127458 68293 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :851) <fizzie> Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily.
< 1342127469 623871 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, not in C no, but many languages store strings as (size,start*)
< 1342127491 655240 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could add a length field to that, but it sounds annoying to implement correctly
< 1342127502 22358 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Doesn't help indexing anyway.
< 1342127520 62832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that too
< 1342127526 960869 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do UTF-8 ropes just fine, though.
< 1342127527 159371 :Guest33002!cfe43d80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.228.61.128 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1342127547 962510 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're indexing strings of text you're probably doing it wrong anyway
< 1342127585 461189 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Pssst, strlen() doesn't tell you anything useful except the number of chars taken by a string.
< 1342127589 697086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc erlang store strings as a linked list of integers (bignum on demand) with the unicode codepoints. Seems like a reasonable representation in the circumstances
< 1342127595 163032 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is literally *useless* if you want to render it.
< 1342127600 634561 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Even if you are rendering ASCII.
< 1342127629 706626 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in C indeed. I meant a more general "string length" as is typically found in a high level language that doesn't assume fixed width chars
< 1342127642 985791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also string length works fine with a monospace font
< 1342127650 89199 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It remains useless if you want to render it.
< 1342127650 633834 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1342127653 709543 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming no crazy double width letters)
< 1342127656 962561 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or similar)
< 1342127672 86702 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Assuming it's trivial, it's trivial!"
< 1342127685 329475 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed!
< 1342127728 430867 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway character count is useful for other purposes.
< 1342127735 157744 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like?
< 1342127767 731572 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I had pieces of homework that had a max letter count. More often they had max word count sure, but I have seen both.
< 1342127807 678900 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, look, it's a niche use!
< 1342127808 681606 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you used strlen to measure the size of your homework?
< 1342127829 856695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and there are many comment fields on web pages and similar that limit how many letters you can type. Twitter is an obvious example, though there are a lot more
< 1342127832 205908 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That you probably have to iterate through anyways, unless you consider space and punctuation to be "letters".
< 1342127854 595111 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, no, I obviously used the char count function in whatever editor I was using
< 1342127862 114075 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc twitter counts codepoints
< 1342127868 739323 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342127879 664806 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, indeed, which means C strlen() would be bloody useless!
< 1342127890 777647 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Nah, integers encoded with the UTF-8 encoding algorithm.
< 1342127902 543309 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: indeed, so why did you bring it up?
< 1342127914 977689 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Anyways, what you're advocating is premature optimization. You're trying to optimize a use-case that *doesn't matter*.
< 1342127967 82774 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardly anything actually cares how many individual glyphs there are, so it doesn't matter to try to give you a 1-to-1 mapping between glyphs and encoding units.
< 1342127967 501135 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's nice, did twitter forget to check the range of the utf-8 data you send them?
< 1342127969 420934 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1342127973 423869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no what I'm advocating is using UCS4 internally because such a representation is simpler to work with. Less complex code than when dealing with variable-width encodings.
< 1342127973 976736 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yup!
< 1342127991 418021 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Except that UCS-4 is a variable-width encoding.
< 1342128013 643452 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? Isn't it just 4-byte per code point?
< 1342128017 73228 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: A glyph is composed of 1 or more code points.
< 1342128026 328901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/-/ /;s/byte/bytes/
< 1342128040 750297 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm true
< 1342128042 967568 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed-size code points will not save you from the variable-width glyphs
< 1342128058 831355 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any of the other 3.7 million problems in text processing
< 1342128081 344285 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And besides which, there is no sensible way you could *actually use* knowledge of being single-width.
< 1342128140 618937 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just start indexing and munging strings, you're going to either be *parsing* it, in which case this doesn't matter at all, or you're doing some algorithm that doesn't care that you're passing it semantically meaningful text, or you're just fucking shit up.
< 1342128146 800096 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it would make indexing into the string a lot simpler (though multi-codepoint stuff breaks that indeed)
< 1342128161 987617 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're indexing strings of text you're probably doing it wrong anyway
< 1342128164 271096 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except *you can't meaningfully index into the string*.
< 1342128192 532535 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342128205 900430 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for any specific reason apart from the multi-codepoint glyphs?
< 1342128212 809942 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does indeed mess the whole thing up
< 1342128224 292120 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Let's index "Vorpal"[2]. What meaning does this operation have?
< 1342128229 988408 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :None.
< 1342128233 448712 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congrats, you got an o.
< 1342128242 848900 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, an r.
< 1342128273 875308 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, what are you doing if you're doing this?
< 1342128280 142758 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be an o if there were shenanigans involved, but I think the example was about the case where there isn't even anything weird in there
< 1342128281 677365 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a user selecting the third letter of a nick displayed on screen in the IRC client network settings?
< 1342128293 362967 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for copying perhaps)
< 1342128299 372252 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh, look, you're dealing in rendering.
< 1342128307 148598 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point
< 1342128311 896905 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congrats, the actual codepoint representation doesn't matter.
< 1342128324 934478 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :selecting by mouse? then you're selecting glyphs rendered in a font, etc
< 1342128384 926959 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically the only way having a single-width encoding helps you is if you also make the assumption that you're dealing in monospace text.
< 1342128385 481588 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, who said mouse? There are plenty of different ways to select. Shift-arrow key for example. Or touch screen.
< 1342128395 280681 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :selecting by keyboard? you'd be iterating glyphs according to some rule about what a glyph is (though a stupid implementation could just let you select code points ignoring everything fiddly)
< 1342128409 142552 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which *isn't generally valid*.
< 1342128486 927505 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, on my screen atm the only text that isn't monospace belongs to the gnome 2 panels at the top and the bottom
< 1342128493 47904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the title bar
< 1342128518 845689 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And your terminal borks horribly on non-Western text, no doubt. :)
< 1342128541 975061 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd type a + combining diaeresis just to get some two-codepoint single-glyph content in there, but don't quite know how on this Windows thing.
< 1342128562 108266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gnome-terminal with Dejavu Sans Mono. No idea how that will behave in such cases.
< 1342128580 285612 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Strangely".
< 1342128584 603407 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might very well turn out to not actually be monospace
< 1342128593 772493 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no sensible monospace rendering of a large number of languages.
< 1342128595 969727 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have problems on xfce's terminal
< 1342128600 915261 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for some stuff certainly.
< 1342128603 772000 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is probably the same as gnome-terminal
< 1342128619 243992 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Like Arabic script.
< 1342128623 224580 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-, pretty similar yeah. I use xfce on my desktop
< 1342128632 880111 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's both gnome-vte AFAIK
< 1342128635 630660 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever it was called
< 1342128651 722120 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have no problems with Japanese text on Irssi or bash.
< 1342128654 961530 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or vim for that matter
< 1342128665 420774 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text rendering is hard. Anything that people think makes it easier is just them breaking shit.
< 1342128671 965856 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it will break on those horrible wide chars thingy, which IMO should not even exist in unicode (as I mentioned earlier)
< 1342128681 237516 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Badly implemented fancy ncurses-esque UIs can break with funny characters though.
< 1342128695 996348 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Actually, terminals handle wide chars.
< 1342128700 520025 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are wide chars horrible
< 1342128712 255088 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They generally make the weird assumption that chars come in single and double width.
< 1342128721 45851 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ｉ　ｂｅｔ　ｈａｌｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｈｅｒｅ　ｃａｎ’ｔ　ｓｅｅ　ｔｈｉｓ
< 1342128727 219480 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ｗｉｔｈ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｒｅｔｒｏ　ｔｅｒｍｉｎａｌｓ
< 1342128743 220296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh
< 1342128743 846645 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In legacy CJK encodings, a "single width" character was 1 byte, and a "double width" one was 2 bytes.
< 1342128764 995302 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which encodings exactly
< 1342128774 430215 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure byte width had nothing to do with visual width even in the old encodings
< 1342128777 602708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ Vorpal
< 1342128781 325236 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ＶＯＲＰＡＬ：　ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ　ＴＯ　ＴＨＥ　ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ　ＨＵＢ　ＦＯＲ　ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ　ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ　ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ　ＤＥＳＩＧＮ　ＡＮＤ　ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！　ＦＯＲ　ＭＯＲＥ　ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ，　ＣＨＥＣＫ　ＯＵＴ　ＯＵＲ　ＷＩＫＩ：　ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ
< 1342128787 540849 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear
< 1342128788 432036 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch
< 1342128788 631198 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: Did on DOS. :)
< 1342128791 524044 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serioously?
< 1342128794 510384 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what *is* that?
< 1342128803 23262 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: a welcome message?
< 1342128804 216072 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Double-wide welcome.
< 1342128813 358751 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ok, can't say I ever used such ancient tech with CJK languages
< 1342128844 992037 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in which encoding? I just get mojibake
< 1342128850 420845 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :â€‹ï¼¶ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼°ï¼¡ï¼¬ï¼šã€€ï¼·ï¼¥ï¼¬ï¼£ï¼¯ï¼­ï¼¥ã€€ï¼´ï¼¯ã€€ï¼´ï¼¨ï¼¥ã€€ï¼©ï¼®ï¼´ï¼¥ï¼²ï¼®ï¼¡ï¼´ï¼©ï¼¯ï¼®ï¼¡ï¼¬ã€€ï¼¨ï¼µï¼¢ã€€ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ã€€ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼¯ï¼´ï¼¥ï¼²ï¼©ï¼£ã€€ï¼°ï¼²ï¼¯ï¼§ï¼²ï¼¡ï¼­ï¼­ï¼©ï¼®ï¼§ã€€ï¼¬ï¼¡ï
< 1342128850 619506 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :¼®ï¼§ï¼µï¼¡ï¼§ï¼¥ã€€ï¼€ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼©ï¼§ï¼®ã€€ï¼¡ï¼®ï¼€ã€€ï¼€ï¼¥ï¼°ï¼¬ï¼¯ï¼¹ï¼­ï¼¥ï¼®ï¼´ï¼ã€€ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ã€€ï¼­ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼¥ã€€ï¼©ï¼®ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼­ï¼¡ï¼´ï¼©ï¼¯ï¼®ï¼Œã€€ï¼£ï¼¨ï¼¥ï¼£ï¼«ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼´ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼²ã€€ï¼·ï¼©ï¼«
< 1342128853 442850 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ï¼©ï¼šã€€ï¼¨ï¼´ï¼´ï¼°ï¼šï¼ï¼ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼¯ï¼¬ï¼¡ï¼®ï¼§ï¼
< 1342128853 703508 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8, I presume.
< 1342128855 71331 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: UTF-8.
< 1342128855 436314 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see it fine. I'm pretty sure gtk is doing the "oops, lets get the letter from a different font" thing though
< 1342128861 120782 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Your IRC client is broken.
< 1342128866 19082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the double width stuff looks like a bitmap font
< 1342128875 182076 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1342128886 664081 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if there's any font where double-width doesn't look like utter shit :)
< 1342128890 421054 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no antialias and still pretty readable
< 1342128929 682292 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, double width latin looks weird by definition because there's just too much space.
< 1342128937 218665 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the double width R top is one pixel higher than the top of the O
< 1342128942 414060 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, but freenode is set to UTF-8 for me, so it should work?
< 1342128947 441323 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "ＯＵＲ" looks really strange
< 1342128959 786157 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a type writer that put the R slightly higher
< 1342128976 715104 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the bot prefixing something to prevent botloops, that confuses my client?
< 1342128979 27225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm looks like only R is affected like that, no other letter
< 1342128994 512462 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, did it work when I pasted it?
< 1342129014 300668 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "OUR"? yes, that worked
< 1342129020 970661 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm okay
< 1342129029 461744 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's a GregorBot, so it should be prefixing zero-width something, but that too in UTF-8.
< 1342129031 416901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :either your client or hackego must be broken then
< 1342129043 49139 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, I'm only assuming it's UTF-8. But it works for me.
< 1342129078 156195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls
< 1342129080 595329 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
< 1342129084 917079 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls quotes
< 1342129087 699198 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :quotes
< 1342129096 511839 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
< 1342129099 273826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1342129099 472605 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ WELCOME "$@" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ /　/'
< 1342129105 818286 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
< 1342129109 62454 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: POSIX shell script text executable
< 1342129109 260707 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1342129110 171373 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1342129112 709552 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't help
< 1342129126 462060 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I do see the zero-width something as a missing-character box when I read the logs from http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
< 1342129136 873482 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ | file -
< 1342129140 597711 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: UTF-8 Unicode text
< 1342129143 416398 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1342129144 879532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8
< 1342129149 240249 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably)
< 1342129162 435877 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on the code, it certainly seems so.
< 1342129171 878271 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, no CTCP VERSION reply?
< 1342129219 882530 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/No
< 1342129222 610106 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh
< 1342129224 99876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that about? 
< 1342129234 304273 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`No
< 1342129237 122850 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1342129243 323991 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`No output.
< 1342129246 87777 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1342129247 629522 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, of course.
< 1342129251 61761 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: confusing you
< 1342129286 190197 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: XChat
< 1342129295 89541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm /charset iirc?
< 1342129301 636031 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it display
< 1342129304 534610 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8?
< 1342129321 93240 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc xchat can get confused between network settings and what actually happens
< 1342129356 706059 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: UTF-8 indeed
< 1342129374 2431 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, any bouncer?
< 1342129386 943054 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I know of, what's that?
< 1342129416 359361 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :like znc or such. You run it on a sever and connect to it. It keeps the connection and logging and so on going in the background for you
< 1342129432 703372 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can display a replay of the last n lines when you connect the irc client
< 1342129692 544863 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need bouncer for something?
< 1342129921 607256 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm?
< 1342131339 934544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :
< 1342131351 27352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342131705 129636 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )
< 1342131839 176719 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8
< 1342132039 336144 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
< 1342132054 201217 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
< 1342133246 421624 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342134466 467764 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-249.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1342134466 996736 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-159-165.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342134709 48947 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1342135226 95417 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342136337 11973 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :to whoever is interested, icfp programming contest starts tomorrow
< 1342136404 396862 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercontinental fallopian probes
< 1342136426 767928 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn fallopian
< 1342136427 736963 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No match for "fallopian".
< 1342136438 667502 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAKING UP TERMS, HMMM?
< 1342136452 35051 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallopian_tube
< 1342136469 361357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It turns out that I'll be free during it.
< 1342136475 764017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure whether I'll do it...
< 1342136832 924634 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342136876 51140 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-229-159.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1342136889 76997 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-159-165.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds