2012-07-01: 00:03:25 pretty cool http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/images/1/18/Sm4mzx_gameplay.png 00:04:33 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\itexplode. 00:06:23 That is one MegaZeux game. 00:07:00 Without the animation of gameplay it does not explain the game well, though. 00:07:28 i think it's good when you can't infer much from a screenshot 00:07:46 ais523\itexplode, what is up with that nick? 00:08:56 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:08:58 Do you like this game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png 00:09:40 that is the greatest computer game ever to exist 00:10:32 Are you sure? 00:11:37 no 00:11:39 Maybe you like this MegaZeux game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip (Incomplete; you also need MegaZeux to run this game) 00:12:48 i have long ago abandoned enjoying fiction 00:13:48 i don't know what the trick is to enjoying fiction 00:15:18 when i was younger i used to believe that it was imbued with wisdom in some way 00:15:30 that i could get something out of it 00:17:00 that i could just enjoy it in and of itself 00:22:07 itidus21, most fiction has nothing to do with wisdom (sure there are cases where there they are related) 00:22:13 it is just for enjoyment 00:22:25 itidus21, I guess you don't enjoy computer games or movies either then? 00:22:43 nor fictional books 00:22:51 not as much as i once did 00:23:10 oh well, everyone is different 00:23:13 comics i still dig! 00:23:46 maybe i can like them.. 00:23:51 just not today 00:24:02 comics? Never been into that 00:24:18 itidus21, anyway that is equally fiction 00:24:26 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 00:24:31 Computer game involve things other than just fictional story 00:24:57 (Some may not even involve story at all; or a story will be added on afterward and is not really a part of the game) 00:25:01 im feeling too sleepy to make sense.. but well i had enouhg sleep 00:25:07 zzo38, yes... but a story is an important part of a lot of computer games (except for really simple ones like, say, tetris or minesweeper). 00:25:39 im just blabbering. 00:25:47 -!- ais523\itexplode has quit. 00:25:54 most of the games I tend to play are heavily story-oriented, or at least features a story as an important part 00:27:26 Good story oriented computer games include text adventure games are good game 00:27:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude 00:28:10 afk 00:28:57 zzo38, did you just say that? 00:29:06 huh 00:29:11 * Vorpal tries to parse it 00:30:58 Text adventure games can resemble a role-playing game but by computer and single-player, and of course the computer does not understand everything you are trying to do 00:31:19 RPGs can be single player 00:31:44 Yes they can be; they can even be no-player; but that is not what is relevant 00:33:36 zzo38, where was your web server now again? 00:33:47 On my computer! 00:33:57 well, I mean URL 00:34:38 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ but there is nothing there; you need the filename 00:34:59 right 00:35:19 I already posted the filenames above, though 00:35:31 zzo38, it just has a link to gopher that I can't open 00:35:43 Yes I know, like I said you need the filename 00:35:51 right 00:36:00 well I need to sleep 00:36:01 cya 00:39:26 In Dungeons&Dragons game I have figured out a plan to continue (I need the chancellor's autograph); I figured out, I now need a wig and I need to cut off his beard and moustache, etc. And take his belongings and destroy them (unless it is money, in which case I can exchange them for gold and give the gold coins to the king). 00:39:52 However I might need a Time Hop spell of a greater duration than normal. 00:42:52 Perhaps if he refuses to give me his autograph, I can find his signature in the royal documents and if I find one describing a bad law that he is trying to pass, I can steal that document. 00:44:51 back 00:44:59 i feel a bit better 00:45:01 i think 00:45:27 In order to kill the demon I think I will need to do many other things first, including trick the chancellor, kill the chancellor, not letanyone know he is dead, and many political issues, especially since he did many bad things and stole the king (so we need to find the king too), and then need help from a beholder and from forcing the demon to chase us around the world. 00:45:33 i suppose i still like fiction 00:45:41 I already have some of the tools I need, such as astrolabe and shovel. 00:48:09 The chancellor is bald, therefore I will need a wig. 00:48:23 And something to force it to stay on his head. 00:49:11 And then the castle will be restored to its rightful king (whom I have never seen, so this might be difficult). 00:54:53 The royal wizard is also helping and he also hates the chancellor like I have also realized he was doing bad things, after using a disguise to go into the king's chamber I could find out more information and now I can confirm the chancellor is on the same team as the demon and they do evil jobs for each other. 00:55:34 However, even though the royal wizard would also want the chancellor dead, I think it is best that he does not know yet; I think it is even best that even I do not know yet, therefore I can cast Modify Memory on myself. 00:56:31 All I found in the king's bed was a dummy. 00:57:18 kmc: I got my flag shirt! 00:57:25 so i got megazeux and tried the super mario demo. pretty cool that they did all that in textmode 00:58:08 Yes it is. Did you try the Caverns of Zeux, Forest of Zeux, etc? Did you try my MegaZeux games (I linked two of them)? 01:00:10 the thing about it is, i have an obsession with super mario bros. 01:01:06 I have once made up a Action Replay cheat code for Super Mario Land to turn off the music but keep the sound effect on. 01:02:20 ok. s/^... /i have an interest in super mario bros./ 01:03:00 that substitution doesn't make sense 01:03:11 ya.. 01:03:26 I have played Super Mario Bros too I wanted to make it invisible Mario to make the game more difficult, I managed to do so 01:03:47 i mean to say 01:04:10 ok. s/i have an obsession with super mario bros/i have an interest in super mario bros/ 01:04:32 zzo38 reminds me of the kinds of things truely obsessed people do 01:15:40 i mean in other words.. i have done nothing to truely represent an obsession with it 01:15:49 i havent devoted real time and energy 01:16:44 Try to play the computer games that I made up, see if you can understand it 01:21:26 i like the term computer games because the computer is really the singular element distinguishing them from other games 01:22:16 board games and card games can be exactly the same regardless of whether they're played on a computer for example 01:22:42 Yes, well, mostly 01:23:03 also there exists sound-only games designed with the blind in mind 01:23:51 Yes there are some 01:24:26 and some interactive fiction is like choose your own adventure books and the like doesn't require a computer 01:31:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:48:59 -!- edwardk has joined. 02:03:49 -!- augur has joined. 02:08:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:13:21 edwardk: O, you are on this channel too now? 02:13:36 i wander back after a while and everyone thinks its strange ;) 02:13:47 i used to lurk in here more regularly 02:14:00 OK. Well, I suppose either I did not notice or I forgot. 02:14:02 used to? how long ago was that? 02:14:10 But it is not a problem nevertheless. 02:14:20 I don't recall seeing you here before yesterday :) 02:14:25 no worries. =) I stalked kmc in. ;) 02:14:43 olsner: i chattered with you and oklopol and some of the others a few years ago 02:14:55 he had some silly language 02:15:29 oh, that time, that was a while before I started coming here regularly 02:15:30 and we talked about kata, so it was probably ~4 years back 02:15:37 -!- augur has joined. 02:15:56 if it was when everyone was inventing a silly human language 02:16:06 sounds about right 02:17:05 i mostly wandered away because i switched irc clients and forgot to add this one back to the list of what i log into 02:17:14 Does the class codensity monad of a commutative idempotent monoid form a set? 02:17:36 edwardk: What IRC client did you used to use and what you switched to? 02:17:38 hrmm good question, seems like it would 02:17:39 code density monad 02:18:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:18:35 The class density comonad of a copeanoid (my Copeanoid class) is a non-empty list comonad even with the same meanings of duplicate and extract. 02:18:40 zzo38: i used to use pidgin, then adium, then xchat, now i use textual 02:18:51 zzo38: sounds about right 02:19:07 you can get the non-empty list monad just by using Free Semigroup 02:19:12 I wonder if reddit also got hit by the leap second bug 02:19:22 edwardk: And yes I did realize that too! 02:19:23 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:20:03 and Maybe as Free Default, if you use class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r then Free (Algebra f) is just the free monad over the f functor 02:20:49 You used four kind of IRC clients? I just wrote an IRC client and before I used this, I used telnet to connect to IRC, which does not work so well. 02:21:16 well, this was recently. before that i used others. i think i first used ircii 02:21:21 wow, using telnet for IRC, that's hardcore 02:21:37 i used to use bitchx way back when as well 02:21:48 otoh, I should not be surprised that the world's last gopher user would also try that :) 02:21:49 but its hard to take any project with a name like that seriously 02:21:54 hah 02:22:08 i remember gopher. not fondly, but i remember it. =) 02:22:25 it was pretty much my first exposure to the internet at large coming out of the bbs world 02:22:29 Now I use PHIRC which unlike using telnet, allows you to backspace, does syntax highlighting, support macros, hides the password, and auto-pong and so on too 02:22:53 edwardk: Gopher and BBS are still used somewhat (and I am not the only one). 02:22:54 oh and i guess i still use colloquy when i want to irc from the ipad 02:23:22 edwardk: kmc will be gone for two weeks soon, I hear! 02:23:25 i used to be overly obsessed with the detroit area bbs scene 02:23:29 shachaf: ack 02:23:47 er both ACKnowledged and, "ack!" 02:24:36 -!- aloril has joined. 02:24:43 An IRC client with syntax highlighting? 02:24:43 BBS systems today are commonly Synchronet and are accessed by internet rather than telephone. Usually telnet is used, however Synchronet also supports rlogin, SSH, NNTP, SMTP, HTTP (including server-side JavaScript), gopher, FTP, and IRC. 02:25:17 i actually wrote a FOSSIL driver around 92 or so that was used to move the regional fidonet hub onto the internet for mail exchange 02:25:18 mroman: Yes. Sender is cyan, command is bright white, short parameters are white, long parameters are bright blue (the colon in front is normal white, though). 02:26:20 used to run bbs's off of OS/2 and DESQview. sheesh, i'd forgotten about DESQview 02:26:38 (and of course DOS) 02:28:11 i wrote a bbs software like TAG called 'psychosys', and a bunch of door games that were used by a lot of ISPs in the area - yes, i was a kid, and it sounded edgy. 02:28:36 er s/ISPs/BBSs/ 02:28:42 I have seen a BBS once 02:28:54 Do you still have any of those door games, and are they compatible with Synchronet? 02:29:29 i might have the source to one or two of them, but keep in mind these are DOS BBS doors, written in turbo pascal probably 5.0, 5.5 or 6.0 02:29:29 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:29:36 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:29:46 and they are designed to talk to an old dos era fossil driver 02:30:07 * shachaf complains vaguely about ptrace. 02:30:09 is a door game about going from room to room via doors? 02:30:20 edwardk: what's a "door" in this context? 02:30:23 Synchronet does support DOS programs and does support FOSSIL as well, and possibly the source codes could be adjusted a bit to compile for a free compiler. 02:30:53 oh, no, door games were where you'd step out of the bbs and into a separate application that would take over the connection and play, the BBS would basically terminate but stay resident, the door would take up the rest of the memory and start running 02:31:01 I still play BBS door games, and access FidoNet and stuff, today, on X-BIT. Telnet to x-bit.org port 23 you need an account 02:31:17 and then when they came back in from the door the BBS would take back over interaction 02:31:53 the door protocol was also how the mail loader that would deal with most fidonet era BBSs would launch the mail exchanger. 02:32:20 it'd pick up the line, check to see if it was another bbs calling that wanted to toss mail, then dump into that mode before hanging up, or it'd go to the usual bbs startup 02:32:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBS_door 02:32:44 Some modern door games are written in server-side JavaScript (which Synchronet supports). 02:33:09 if i'm going to write a door in javascript i might as well just run it in the browser ;) 02:33:10 That toss mail stuff still works today using QWK. 02:33:28 zzo38: Oh. 02:33:39 i used to work with paul williams from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAG_(BBS) 02:33:40 I thought syntax highlighting for code. 02:33:58 and knew a number of the telegard guys as well 02:34:29 mostly by dint of being an obnoxious obsessive kid who would chat with anyone ;) 02:35:10 if everyone built their BBS:es on z/VM, I guess doors would be done as virtual machines 02:35:32 There still are many Synchronet BBSes today and many of the modern games are written in JavaScript, although to the client it is the same as if it were a DOS program or native program. 02:36:49 sadly none of the ones out of michigan descend from the horst mann bbs list era ;) 02:36:55 One game I like best is Word Warp, which I still play today. Scores are kept per month. 02:37:53 http://bbslist.textfiles.com/313/ has a lot of the wrong names for sysops, etc. odd 02:38:03 edwardk: Well, yes, they are new ones since they are by internet instead of telephone, and as far as I know the only software that existed in those days for telephone BBS and now works with internet BBS is Synchronet. So if they have a Synchronet BBS, it is possible for it to still exist today on the internet. 02:39:01 i found an old 5 1/4" floppy from that era with some of my old pascal source code on it 02:39:09 but i don't have anything to read it with =( 02:40:09 I will tell you what I have used for that purpose: I used a compiler with 5 1/4" floppy drive and connect it to a laptop computer by serial port. 02:40:15 it should have a little populous style over-world 320x200 game engine for rendering the overland map from my mud, a little novalogic "voxel" style cave exploration engine, etc 02:41:30 my mom mentioned she found some of my even older 5 1/4" floppies from when i used CP/M =/ 02:41:37 those will be even more awkward to read 02:42:03 mostly just used to boot into it from the commodore 128 02:42:17 i wound up moving to the PC because of turbo pascal. it gave me a migration path ;) 02:42:37 (tp 3.0 or so had both CP/M and DOS versions) 02:42:51 I sometimes write computer game programs in QBASIC. 02:43:06 i'm not that masochistic ;) 02:43:27 -!- david_werecat has joined. 02:43:40 All of these program in public domain 02:43:53 Including source-codes. 02:44:02 I can show it to you if you want to. 02:44:42 i wrote my disassembler on a lark when i was 8 or so when i lied and told a kid i'd written one and had to make good, and after i wrote the little assembly monitor i used to enter code, the only time i ever bothered with basic on the c64 was when forced. 02:45:05 quickbasic programs? no thanks =) 02:45:42 Some people have said these are good game 02:46:21 edwardk: Also, can you show me how you can make free monad over the functor by class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r 02:46:51 its in ralf hinze's article 02:46:54 (And what it has to do with algebra) 02:47:04 that is an f-algebra 02:47:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-algebra 02:47:33 OK 02:47:53 so make an instance of Algebra for say, instance Algebra f (Mu f) where phi = In 02:48:50 or instance Algebra f (TheOtherFree f a) were phi = TheOtherFree 02:49:04 (using TheOtherFree for the constructor of the more traditonal free monad) 02:49:18 instance Algebra f (Free (Algebra f)) 02:49:20 also works 02:49:36 all of those are fun to construct 02:49:48 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Quitting...). 02:50:26 do make the cofree comonad you need f-coalgebras 02:50:39 class Coalgebra f a where psi :: a -> f a 02:50:59 phi and psi are traditional, but not necessary names 02:51:31 I thought what you called phi there seems what is called alpha in the Wikipedia article? Or am I doing something wrong? 02:51:42 it is 02:52:31 you may find http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.41.125 useful in understanding them 02:53:14 my old catamorphism knol uses them, http://comonad.com/haskell/catamorphisms.html 02:54:17 I do not have access to CiteseerX 02:55:45 http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/Papers/fpca91.pdf 02:56:34 actually theres a .ps link on the site itself 02:56:58 zzo38: it's apparently a free article 02:59:00 nevermind i'll stay out of it 03:13:21 What is the isomorphism between these free monads? 03:32:56 Please tell me if you have any suggestion relating to ITMCK then I may add it in if I think it is a good idea. 03:34:06 There are some features I wanted to add on, I may do so in later version but not in first version. 03:36:06 zzo38: do you like music? 03:36:21 itidus21: I like many kind of music not all 03:36:39 i don't know why but I have never had much interest in audio 03:37:12 it's like how children (probably) don't have any interest in politics 03:37:32 maybe it is cognitive dissonance 03:38:19 i can't whistle, i can't play any instruments, i've never created a song 03:38:41 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:38:42 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has joined. 03:39:44 I can play piano 03:47:23 I have even made up music with Bohlen-Pierce too. 03:49:35 i am a badperson 03:49:41 also wait 03:49:46 who invitied edwardk in here? 03:49:49 this channel is ruined 03:50:04 coppro: edwardk sometimes come in here I do not think that makes the channel ruined 03:50:17 zzo38: it was sarcasm :) 03:52:55 coppro: if you are a badperson, maybe it was you who ruined the channel? 03:53:34 olsner: possible 03:54:23 im confident that i destroy every social system i am a part of 03:55:42 -!- coppro has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 03:55:50 If you have any complaint against ITMCK you can file the complaint in here: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/itmck 03:57:30 what is ITMCK 03:57:50 This is program to write Impulse Tracker files. 03:58:00 Yes, that is what it is. 03:59:23 do you think it is cheating to use a non-standard memory mapper for NES/Famicom homebrew? 03:59:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:00:11 itidus21: Almost. 04:00:52 There are many ambitions I have in life. One of them is to make a NES/Famicom rom. 04:01:01 wow... i just had idea 04:02:02 if i cared about brainfuck, i could add to my list of ambitions the ambition of creating a NES rom brainfuck interpreter 04:02:33 oh its been done 04:02:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:02:41 wow 04:03:01 http://pdroms.de/files/nintendoentertainmentsystem/khs-nes-brainfuck 04:03:32 another ambition completed vicariously 04:05:05 itidus21: of course it has been done :) 04:05:52 well i bet there isn't a dvd where you can code brainfuck from the remote control yet 04:06:08 then again not sure if a dvd can do that 04:06:12 not sure DVD is turing complete at all 04:06:27 bluray can, but the tools for it are all proprietary and yucky 04:06:36 yeah.... 04:06:59 At least DVD does have more buttons, you can use all the numbers 1 to 99, I think. 04:07:10 i read today about some choose your own adventure dvd on wikipedia.. and of course they filed a patent! 04:07:45 so yes its a stupid idea to do 04:13:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lully I admire this man 04:13:31 he died due to complications arising from a conducting injury 04:13:38 conducting being the musical thing 04:13:58 xkcd: died in a conducting accident 04:14:10 to me, esolangs are useful for the same reasons as psychedelics 04:14:32 coppro: How does that even *happen*? 04:15:49 He was beating time by banging a long staff (a precursor to the bâton) against the floor, as was the common practice at the time, when he struck his toe, creating an abscess. The wound turned gangrenous, but Lully refused to have his toe amputated and the gangrene spread, resulting in his death on 22 March. 04:27:28 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:03:07 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:08:42 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:09:04 -!- neutrino2000 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 05:39:04 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to eigenpumpkin. 06:01:18 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:01:34 -!- edwardk_ has joined. 06:05:06 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDoze. 06:21:52 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 06:24:18 I made up a list of fake character of Super Smash Brothers, including: Prof.Oak, Imakuni?, Kaiji, Kjugobe, Miyamoto, Urza, TV repair man. 06:24:26 -!- edwardk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:25:29 zzo38: oh i have a mockup to show you 06:25:33 These are seven columns on a sheet of paper. The rows are: (up)XY, (left/right), (down), A, A(up), A(left/right), A(down), B, B(up), B(left/right), B(down), C(up), C(left/right), C(down), Z, LR, D(up), D(left/right), D(down), FINAL. 06:25:46 -!- edwardk has joined. 06:26:08 (I did not actually write (up) and stuff like that; I wrote the arrows.) 06:28:37 Miyamoto's FINAL is to break the game and it won't work anymore until you push RESET (so the match ends with no winner, and if it is tournament mode, you also have to start the tournament all over again). 06:29:39 Imakuni?'s D(down) changes the music to the Imakuni?'s card music. 06:30:33 And it deals damage if and only if the Imakuni?'s card music is the normal music for that stage. 06:31:23 Kaiji's B(up) allows you to walk up the glass staircase that nobody else ever noticed was there. 06:33:46 What are your opinions for this kind of things? 06:34:16 http://i.imgur.com/Anw0L.png 06:34:38 took a while to find this in my firefox history 06:34:44 Why does it say Carmack twice? 06:34:53 john and adrian :D 06:35:01 OK 06:35:57 the fact that tom hall and john carmack are depicted as female is, partially because thats just how the screenshot was 06:36:23 the enemy they're facing is a doomgaze 06:36:26 I wasn't paying attention to that 06:37:11 but, overall, i like the idea that a game dev team is a party made up of people with different specializations 06:37:31 tswett, monqy: Homestuck is on hiatuses for a while: http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/26260841147/hiatustuck . Note that I may not have announced the most recent update, etc. 06:37:44 Some game is made by just one guy 06:39:03 so, taking a look now at what you said.. oak is the guy from pokemon, miyamoto is a man whose precise work is unknown but mario is attriubted to him 06:39:37 Yes 06:39:46 urza sounds like bear for some reason 06:39:58 Perhaps you are thinking of the Latin "ursa" 06:40:29 (As in "Ursa Major" (the Great Bear) and "Ursa Minor" (the Small Bear)) 06:40:36 something like that 06:40:50 Urza is from Magic: the Gathering cards 06:41:09 Urza would be too strong 06:41:42 zzo38: Have you read the artifact cycle? 06:42:08 coppro: What is that? 06:42:21 zzo38: a book series 06:42:28 featuring urza 06:42:34 I have not read any of those books. 06:42:39 ah 06:42:46 those ones are actually quite good 06:44:15 I particularly enjoyed The Thran 06:44:23 and Planeswalker 06:44:26 zzo38: it sounds not too remote from the sort of thing i would enjoy making. but ive only played smash bros once.. my brother and i looked on helplessly as the cpu kicked our ass 06:44:27 Well, I have not read them. My interest in Magic: the Gathering is how the rules interact with each other (I think this is called "Melvin") 06:45:15 itidus21: I have play the game against my brother and the computer players and I sometimes win but usually he wins. 06:45:59 we don't play games together much.. not since SNES really 06:46:14 but i had a few fun sessions playing a game called bleach: shattered blade 06:47:23 it was really intensive cos you have to shake the wiimote to charge up some special move 06:48:07 Well, I played with the GameCube controllers so did not have to do such things like that 06:48:22 in this case it was part of the fun though 06:48:46 Yes, of course, if that is a part of the game, then yes it is. 06:49:01 to play this game, it was a matter of physical stamina 06:50:36 Why does MegaZeux converts .GDM to .S3M but OpenMPT converts .GDM to .MOD instead? Do either of these works better in either case? 06:52:35 itidus21: I think originally they wanted Miyamoto's final attack to crack the disc so you have to purchase a new one, but I changed it. 06:55:20 that sounds right 06:55:34 (At least this is what my brother told me) 06:56:17 ahh you both designed this? 06:56:24 Yes. 07:00:55 Game publishers don’t like the second-hand game market because it eats into revenues. Capcom is planning to counter that by releasing a game for the Nintendo 3DS that can only support one save file - for life. 07:01:04 The game is Resident Evil: Mercenaries 3D and according to the game’s instruction manual, the ”saved data on this software cannot be reset.” 07:01:47 close enough 07:02:33 It is stupid. Well, I have a program to backup and restore save data on DS game cards, but I do not know if it will work with the 3DS cards 07:05:36 another news is that DLC is planned for an upcoming super mario game 07:06:34 yet another idiot move was final fantasy xiii-2 apparently has a DLC ending 07:06:39 @seen kmc 07:06:40 Unknown command, try @list 07:06:50 hichaf 07:07:10 kmc: I got my flag shirt! 07:07:16 nice! 07:07:16 Maybe I said that before. 07:07:35 Also, I asked about the next CTF on your behalf. 07:07:40 It'll probably be in August. 07:07:44 cool 07:07:46 My own designs are opposite to theirs: The game disc has no copy protection and includes all the files on the disc which are needed to make the box art and instruction book and inventory data and so on, so if the store runs out of stock they can make their own copy; the customer can do the same if they lost the box or instructions, or the disc cracked and they want a backup copy, etc 07:07:54 It'll probably be more web-oriented. 07:08:02 cool! 07:09:02 I found a bug in std.file.read() in D. 07:09:07 Which isn't very confidence-inspiring. 07:09:13 What's a "flag shirt"? 07:09:13 what kind of bug? 07:09:21 can it be used to take control of the computer? 07:09:31 It gets the buffering wrong and gives you a bunch of 0s instead of the end of the file you asked for. 07:09:46 "oopse :'(" 07:10:09 :3 07:10:19 With normal files it stat()s them first and allocates a reasonably-large buffer. 07:10:29 But with /proc files it can't do that, and you get a bunch of NULs. 07:11:00 aha 07:11:15 is it actually null, or uninitialized data? 07:11:44 Presumably uninitialized data. 07:11:50 This system may cut into revenues but it also costs us less to implement than the other way, and the store can potentially sell a lot more copies since they can make their own copy if they run out of stock. 07:11:51 I think it's whatever it gets from realloc(). 07:12:08 shachaf: how did you come to be playing with D's std.file.read()? 07:12:26 Also, something like half of the suid programs on my system segfault when you exec them with argc==0. 07:12:32 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:12:53 I was thinking of using D for various ptrace things. 07:13:18 Hello 07:14:41 Do you like the "Famicom-MIDI" format? 07:14:55 shachaf: What's a "flag shirt"? [Some day I'll learn to add that "nick:" thing the first time.] 07:15:01 I'm not awfully familiar with the various music formats available 07:15:30 fizzie: It's a shirt with a picture of a flag on it. 07:15:30 I presume Famicom-MIDI is designed for the NES? 07:15:33 Taneb: Famicom-MIDI is not a music format, it is a specification for use of MIDI like General-MIDI is a specification for use of MIDI. 07:15:47 kmc has one, and today I went and got one too. 07:15:49 Oh, okay 07:16:10 Taneb: Yes it is for NES but mostly emulators, and can be used with GameBoy and stuff too. 07:16:13 shachaf: Oh, I thought a shirt made out of a flag or something. (I guess that's sort of close.) 07:16:45 It could be a shirt with a picture of a shirt made out of a flag on it. 07:17:18 (It would probably be difficult to make it work on a real GameBoy without modifying the hardware, although channels 0-3 could be made to work on a real NES; channels 8 and 9 would also require modification of the hardware. Emulators can support it more easily, though.) 07:17:22 kmc: Writing a program that prints out the contents of /proc/foo/maps is weird. 07:17:32 I constantly feel like my program just crashed. 07:18:07 Here is the current draft of Famicom-MIDI document: http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9058 07:18:49 They sent me a T-shirt (the cheapest-looking one I've ever seen) for doing that stripe.com "CTF" get-the-password kind of thing a while ago, something like that was my alternative guess. 07:19:07 fizzie: That's the one I got. 07:19:11 I was at the Stripe office today. 07:19:22 I did the CTF but they never sent me the shirt. 07:20:01 Oh, okay. (I was kind of surprised they bothered to mail one all the way to Finland.) 07:20:10 One potential use is to play back tool assisted speedruns that are created on computer, to the actual NES, by connecting through a MIDI sequencer to the device that translates the signals and connects to the controller port. 07:24:22 Channel 8 could be used to record the audio data directly, which can then be played back in any emulator supporting Famicom-MIDI (even one that is not capable of recording audio in this way). 07:27:02 Can you understand the Famicom-MIDI now? 07:28:33 Hmm 07:28:45 Not really, but honestly? I don't really care 07:28:57 I've been playing Dwarf Fortress, and I've found a perfect site 07:29:28 It's got magnetite, haematite, limestone, bituminous coal, and native silver. 07:29:34 It's also heavily forested 07:29:38 Downsides: alligators 07:32:59 Oh, and it has gold 07:35:41 zzo38: actually the technical side of it is probably the easy part for smart people. but the greater question of what you are trying to achieve overall is an exciting mystery 07:36:59 What do you not understand about trying to achieve overall? 07:37:17 I thought I explained that too. 07:37:31 zzo38, you're almost reminding me of ELIZA 07:38:16 is it a midi player? is it a library to enable some given NES software to include midi music? 07:40:15 itidus21: No! It doesn't have anything more to do with music than MIDI show control has to do with music. 07:41:21 you mentioned something about controller port.. is there some midi device which can conveniently plug into controller port? 07:42:11 You would have to make up such a device, and it would have to support synchro-start 07:45:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:46:41 Morning, PH 07:48:32 is it about using midi to encode video-game related data? 07:54:08 zzo38: i am breaking rule #1 which is never question the motives of an engineer 07:57:15 itidus21: That is kind of the purpose, yes. For example, to record the controller inputs for playback later, either by file or by external MIDI devices. You may also be able to edit them using certain MIDI programs. 07:58:09 And I disagree with rule #1 anyways since to learn something you have to question the motives of an engineer. And then you have to get an answer. 08:19:08 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:20:33 -!- edwardk has joined. 08:33:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:35:09 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:35:47 -!- edwardk has joined. 08:48:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:59:06 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:03:42 -!- derdon has joined. 09:13:44 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:29:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:31:00 ex officio, that means it's his job, right? 09:49:22 02:44 how do I convert [IO a] to (IO [a])? 09:49:30 That ended more cheerfully than I had feared. 09:49:36 :t sequence 09:49:38 forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a] 09:50:46 Yep. 09:55:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 11:03:42 > 0.99 ^ 100 11:03:44 0.3660323412732289 11:04:23 > exp (-1) 11:04:24 0.36787944117144233 11:04:59 Ooh, I never realised e crops up there. 11:05:49 i think that's how i first saw e derived, way back 11:05:50 (Probability of an event with probability 1/n not occurring on any of n occasions.) 11:06:11 alternatively, continuously compounded interest 11:06:39 One of the STEP II problems this year was deriving that representation. 11:08:01 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:08:28 -!- derdon has joined. 11:08:45 lim {n -> infty} (1 + k/n)^n = e^k 11:09:56 -!- Zuu has joined. 11:12:46 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:15:10 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 11:18:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:25:47 -!- Zuu has left. 11:39:54 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:50:08 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:03:46 I was just looking at the ID3 spec to figure out why my phone only seems to notice the embedded cover art for some of the albums... That spec is a mess... Also the image type enumeration includes "$11 A bright coloured fish"... What? 12:04:45 Are you saying bright coloured fish *shouldn't* be allowed in images? 12:04:56 Are you some kind of racistagainstfishperson? 12:05:32 shachaf, I'm questioning that it is a special type, the other types includes things such as "Cover (front)" "Cover (back)" and file icons 12:05:44 "A bright coloured fish" doesn't make sense there 12:05:59 Fishracist! 12:06:20 right 12:07:17 anyway the spec in general is a mess. It is incredibly unclear on various points, explains things in the wrong order (and doesn't provide any sort of cross references for such situations) and so on 12:07:39 also it has lots of features that no one uses apparently 12:07:46 Vorpal: I think I mentioned the fish on #esoteric. 12:07:54 fizzie, not recently I presume? 12:08:23 Well, some years ago. 12:08:39 GIF has a bunch of features no one uses. 12:08:48 (And it could've been some other channel altogether.) 12:09:01 also hm, this album which works on the phone doesn't show up has having cover art in the computer program I'm using for tagging (but it works in vlc!) 12:09:23 yet some albums work in all programs, and some only on the computer 12:09:39 vlc seems to manage everything though, can't embed cover art from it I think 12:10:19 It is quite a mess, I agree about that. 12:10:45 also... this album works on the phone when playing a song from it (it displays the cover art) but the cover art doesn't show up in the album listing 12:10:49 wut 12:11:01 caching issues? 12:12:55 I did figure out one thing though, and that is that it can't do cover art in ogg, but that was like the only consistent behaviour about it 12:18:30 The only files that I have cover art on the phone are I think the four really random songs that had for some reason been preloaded onto it. 12:18:38 heh 12:18:52 the bastion sound track is the crazy one that works perfectly except in the tagger software 12:19:24 oh the thing with cover art showing up in some places was a caching issue 12:19:33 killing the music player program and starting it again worked 12:20:30 and then I just have Ogg Vorbis left... And cover art for that doesn't work at all on the phone 12:21:38 and from googling... what the tagger does isn't an official standard, just a common convention, since there is no official way to embed cover art in ogg vorbis... 12:21:40 oh well 12:24:43 oh wait the tagger uses a deprecated variant. Maybe that is the issue 12:24:51 now I need to find a program that does it properly 12:39:29 lol... vlc doesn't handle the recommended format, but the phone does 12:39:32 (for ogg) 12:39:33 fizzie, ^ 12:39:36 what a utter mess 12:59:34 an* 13:04:22 oh okay I needed to update vlc 13:13:50 Wonder whether that new Linux Skype 4 is worth upgrading to. The Utnubu on the laptop didn't seem to package it yet. 13:24:21 fizzie, isn't skype rather bad from what I heard? 13:24:33 and from what I heard it is getting worse over time 13:29:34 I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.) 13:31:19 from what I recall, skype on linux is bad in all ways 13:33:21 but that was years ago 13:37:12 They haven't really made any significant improvement in the 2.x series. 13:37:40 The official blog post about Skype 4 for Linux says it's good, but they would in any case, wouldn't they? 13:39:09 yes, they would 13:40:02 They list "much lower chance Skype for Linux will crash or freeze" as one of the improvements. 13:49:14 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 13:50:41 "much lower chance"... 13:50:45 sounds legit . 13:51:17 Grenades.. now with lower chance for exploding in your hand! 13:51:42 Only 9.95! 13:51:44 Not just lower, much lower. 13:51:53 Warning: May contain traces of nuts. 13:52:44 Like, it could be an order of magnitude lower. Now only every 100th grenade blows up in your hand, compared to every 10th. 13:53:47 That would be so releiving . 13:54:04 relieve 13:54:50 Seems to me english folks didn't have a consensus on using ei or ie ;) 13:55:34 i before e except after c (except the rule is useless) 13:56:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLXvXFLKrSw for Stephen Fry's failed attempts at explaining the problem to Lee Mack 14:03:49 I dunno but I've never had trouble remembering whether it's ie or ei 14:03:54 Or knowing 14:04:41 like all other parts of spelling in english, you just need to know how it's spelled 14:05:10 On the Origin of Speceis, because it's after c. 14:05:57 but apparently those with english as a native language often get taught various rules for how this is done, but all the rules are broken 14:15:23 If teaching rules to native speakers works. 14:47:22 -!- eigenpumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 14:54:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:55:13 Hello 14:55:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:56:13 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:57:59 lleHo 14:59:11 > randomRIO >>= return.(!!).(permutations "Hello") 14:59:13 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.IO a -> [a1]' 14:59:13 against infer... 15:00:21 > randomRIO (1,10) >>= (\c -> return $ (permutations "Hello") !! c) 15:00:22 15:00:40 > print 5 15:00:42 15:00:58 Too bad :( 15:11:47 I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.) <-- technical issues with skype in general, not just on linux 15:11:54 things like video calls breaking up and such 15:11:57 from what I heard 15:12:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:17:01 Well, EWORKSFORUS. 15:17:30 Though the Skype use we have is mostly audio and text. 15:18:17 ah 15:19:05 fizzie, shoudln't teamspeak or something like that work just as well then? 15:19:22 Again, other people. 15:19:24 @dice 1d120 15:19:24 1d120 => 50 15:19:28 > (permutations "Hello") !! 49 15:19:30 "Hoell" 15:19:46 (Combining that to single step left as an exercise to the reader.) 15:20:20 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:20:25 right 15:20:58 :t (!!) 15:21:00 forall a. [a] -> Int -> a 15:21:09 I'll try this again 15:21:47 > ("Hello" !!) <$> [0..4] 15:21:48 "Hello" 15:23:23 '@dice' is funny, it can do NdF+K but not NdF-K. 15:34:26 > permutations "Hello" !! $ 49 15:34:27 : parse error on input `$' 15:35:18 > (!!49) . permutations $ "Hello" 15:35:22 "Hoell" 15:35:52 I know. 15:36:01 But that's not the output pl provides. 15:36:31 > let f = (permutations "Hello" !!) in f 49 15:36:32 "Hoell" 15:36:42 > (permutations "Hello" !!) $ 49 15:36:44 "Hoell" 15:36:58 I forgot the brackets. 15:37:27 @pl \s -> (permutations s) !! 49 15:37:28 (!! 49) . permutations 15:41:18 Any chance it could do NdF-K by giving it a positive value that causes it to wrap around? 15:41:47 > maxBound :: Int 15:41:49 9223372036854775807 15:41:56 @dice 1d2 15:41:57 1d2 => 2 15:42:02 @dice 1d2+1 15:42:03 1d2+1 => 3 15:42:10 @dice 1d2+9223372036854775807 15:42:10 1d2+9223372036854775807 => 9223372036854775809 15:42:19 @dice 1d2+9223372036854775808 15:42:19 1d2+9223372036854775808 => 9223372036854775810 15:42:30 Blah 15:42:36 @dice 1d1 15:42:36 1d1 => 1 15:42:42 @dice 1d2+1.5 15:42:43 unexpected ".": expecting "+" or end 15:42:57 @dice 1d0 15:42:57 1d0 => 0 15:43:20 @dice 0d1 15:43:21 0d1 => 0 15:43:23 @dice 0d0 15:43:23 0d0 => 0 15:43:29 > 0^0 15:43:30 1 15:48:31 > maxBound :: Integer 15:48:32 No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer) 15:48:32 arising from... 16:01:04 For what it's worth, Integer as implemented by GHC is in fact bounded 16:13:26 Sgeo: Howso? 16:13:58 data Integer 16:13:59 = S# Int# -- small integers 16:13:59 | J# Int# ByteArray# -- large integers 16:14:25 Uses a Int# for.... I think the size of the array? It has something to do with GMP's representation 16:14:55 That doesn't necessarily mean it's bounded (although it probably is) 16:15:19 The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such. 16:29:11 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:31:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:31:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:45:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:52:55 GMP's integers are at least bounded. 16:56:15 -!- MDoze has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:59:49 -!- MSleep has joined. 17:00:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:02:21 Hello 17:07:47 -!- elliott has joined. 17:08:03 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006 is there any evidence to support this change? 17:08:04 elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 17:09:10 16:15:19: The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such. 17:09:11 Pointers are bounded. Why am I reading the log? I'm closing that tab. 17:09:56 @tell oerjan Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort it out : 17:09:56 Consider it noted. 17:09:59 @tell oerjan *:p 17:09:59 Consider it noted. 17:10:06 elliott, why did you leave for so long!? I've resorted to asking question to which I won't understand the answer to in #haskell ! 17:10:17 elliott: I was wilfully ignoring that kind of boundedness. :-P 17:11:14 Deewiant: I don't see why you would when even without a next-array pointer the boundedness is entirely theoretical :p 17:11:42 With a pointer you can fill the machine memory, with an Int# you can't. :-P 17:11:45 Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring? 17:11:55 Deewiant: Eh? 17:12:01 Deewiant: A ByteArray# could easily fill memory. 17:12:05 Without any next-array pointers. 17:12:14 elliott, it's my IRC home 17:12:19 In J# Int# ByteArray#, the Int# is the number of thingies. Chunks. Thunks. Clunks. Punks. Monks. 17:12:32 If it has at most maxBound :: Int# bytes, it can't necessarily. 17:12:50 But yes, it's all quite uselessly academic. 17:12:51 It's maxBound :: Int# words, I believe. 17:13:01 (Also that's not a valid value!) 17:19:01 elliott: limbs 17:19:01 except it isn't just that 17:19:04 it also has the sign baked in 17:20:23 copumpkin: I forgot about the sign thing. 17:20:26 Why did you have to remind me? :( 17:23:02 :) 17:35:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:35:14 elliott, hi! 17:35:20 Hi. 17:36:04 elliott, hm ghc no longer goes through C iirc? Can it still be made to do that. I want to try something insane. 17:36:51 What is it that you want to try? 17:37:37 zzo38, Try getting a haskell program onto an android device using the Android NDK (this will mean I have to either write some C glue code or somehow access JNI from inside haskell!) 17:38:04 iirc android has a messed up phreads implementation, if ghc depends on a sane pthreads... 17:38:31 Vorpal, GHC does allow you to compile into C, but it needs a special option 17:38:45 Taneb, and it is still platform specific C right? 17:38:54 So I first need a ghc cross compiler to ARMv7 17:38:55 Not if you use a different option 17:39:08 oh? really? Do you happen to know which options these are 17:41:04 "The C code generator is only supported when GHC is built in unregisterised mode, a mode where GHC produces 'portable' C code as output to facilitate porting GHC itself to a new platform. This mode produces much slower code though so it's unlikely your version of GHC was built this way. If it has then the native code generator probably won't be available. You can check this information by calling ghc -- 17:41:04 info. " 17:41:05 oh right 17:41:24 so I probably need to specially compile ghc for the option to exist 17:41:40 or actually, this system has an old ghc (6.12.1) 17:41:41 hm 17:42:24 yeah for modern ghc at least: "Unregisterised compilation cannot be selected at compile-time; you have to build GHC with the appropriate options set. Consult the GHC Building Guide for details." 17:43:42 You can see http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Android to see what others have thought about it. 17:43:54 oh thanks, didn't think to check there 17:44:34 (Some dude on the SO thread mentions doing something with jhc w.r.t. the Wii homebrew toolchain.) 17:44:49 heh 17:44:59 what does jhc target now again? 17:46:14 Apparently it has at least several C-based backends. 17:46:18 ah 17:46:30 what with the j I thought it might target jvm 17:46:55 There's support for cross-compiling to iPhone too. Sounds like Android would fit right in. 17:47:30 with iphone you have a objc environment. Presumably you thus have a non-barebone libc/libpthreads 17:47:38 which is what android has from my understanding 17:48:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:48:36 ais523, elliott's back 17:48:40 yeah seems like a quick hack wouldn't be possible for this 17:48:40 And he's got a new trick 17:48:50 Taneb, what new trick? 17:49:03 Vorpal, reference to a song 17:49:34 "He's back, and he's got a new trick" 17:49:51 ah I see 17:49:54 "Elliott Hird is ten times as slick as the last time!" 17:49:55 Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring? <-- I guess I need to be more active :P 17:50:09 "The last time, you saw him" 17:50:20 "Now you can see we really adore him" 17:53:46 It's a Hexham Classic 17:59:21 I'm back? 18:00:13 elliott, do you have an android based phone or an iphone? I don't remember. I do remember you playing around with android devices, but they might have been tablets 18:00:46 -!- VorpalPhone has joined. 18:01:46 I hate the wifi white spot in this room... 18:01:53 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Client Quit). 18:01:59 terrible wifi here 18:02:12 could only connect on second try 18:03:35 I have an iPhone. I don't use it. 18:03:40 ah okay 18:04:07 elliott, so if you said this channel was boring, why did you come back? 18:04:13 zzo38: happy canada day! http://gotstylemenswear.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/canadaday.jpeg 18:04:51 -!- Maharba has joined. 18:05:48 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:06:01 Oh, elliott came back 18:10:47 Phantom_Hoover, not very talkative though 18:14:12 Phantom_Hoover, what's the weather like in the Hexham of the North that Isn't Helsinki? 18:15:09 Standard Edinburgh weather, i.e. overcast. 18:15:59 What's the weather like in the Hexham of the Hexham latitude? 18:18:16 Bright but drizzly 18:20:03 Ah, the worst weather. 18:21:59 I think it was the day before yesterday (or possibly the day before that) when it rained 41 mm / m² here. 18:22:12 Been a very rainy start to the summer in most of Sweden 18:22:25 Um... 18:22:26 Vorpal. 18:22:32 Phantom_Hoover, yes? 18:22:52 what is it? 18:22:56 You don't measure rainfall in mm / m^2. 18:23:06 It's just mm. 18:23:13 -!- edwardk has joined. 18:23:15 Phantom_Hoover, well technically that is mm / m^2 18:23:18 iirc 18:23:22 Nope. 18:23:28 isn't it just... depth 18:23:35 hm perhaps 18:23:39 How it works is there is a volume of rain over an area, which is a length. 18:23:58 Vorpal, you are wrong. Phantom_Hoover, Maharba, and elliott are right 18:24:15 right, I found what I mixed it up with: "One millimeter of rainfall is the equivalent of one liter of water per square meter.[84]" 18:24:20 my fault 18:24:30 You could do it in litres per square metre, but that's obviously the same as mm unitwise. 18:24:37 indeed 18:24:40 Taneb: thank you for crushing his hopes and dreams :P 18:25:04 Vorpal, don't worry, there are lots of alternatives to being a meteorologist. 18:25:07 elliott, I have no issue with admitting being wrong when that was the case :P 18:25:28 today however the sun is shining here 18:25:38 I've got a friend who thinks sanguine rhymes with whine 18:25:44 As opposed to win 18:26:09 Taneb, thats... interesting 18:26:19 She won't admit that she's wrong 18:26:28 Could be worse, he could make it rhyme with... irvooine? 18:26:47 It _should_ rhyme with whine, but English is messed-up. 18:26:49 Taneb, just show her a dictionary with the IPA in it? 18:27:07 Vorpal, odds of that working is slim 18:27:21 Maharba, it's like bother and brother 18:27:27 And countless other pairs 18:27:30 That presumes she knows the IPA. 18:27:41 Taneb, precisely. 18:28:11 Or reading/Reading. Or tear/tear. 18:28:25 Phantom_Hoover, iirc in most dictionaries I have seen there is a legend at the start showing how to decode IPA (by using examples of the sounds from simple words) 18:29:08 I'd rather those were pronounced, say, /tear/, or /readiN/, to use the X-Sampa encoding. 18:29:12 Vorpal, you could just get a dictionary with plain phonetic spelling. 18:29:37 Maharba, you'd rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography? 18:29:56 Either way, actually, as long as they match. 18:30:26 I too would rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography 18:30:48 How would you change the orthography of , say? 18:30:59 Actually, I would rather it became an alternate but still accepted pronunciation, than the standard current one. 18:31:01 Phantom_Hoover, those exist? Nice 18:31:26 Vorpal, it's common in more basic dictionaries, like the ones you get in schools. 18:31:45 I have seen dictionaries using phonetic order 18:31:48 Anything using "plain phonetic spelling" other than the IPA is guaranteed more ambiguous and harder to understand. 18:31:49 Big ones tend to use the IPA, sometimes exclusively. 18:32:11 Phantom_Hoover, hm, I guess back then I mostly worked with Swedish-English/English-Swedish ones. Never really used pure Swedish dictionaries that wasn't the official SAOL. 18:32:13 I agree IPA is better 18:32:17 Maharba, um, no. 18:32:25 More ambiguous, yes; harder to understand, no. 18:32:39 Not to me, at least. 18:32:42 IPA beers aren’t to my taste, but many people like them. 18:33:07 The point is that it breaks words up into sections which have a fairly unambiguous standard representation. 18:33:21 So you don't need to learn a separate system first. 18:33:33 I did not understand what you said there. 18:34:57 zzo38, phonetic order from the back of the word would be useful 18:35:14 For rhyming, yeah. 18:35:17 Sanguine would be split into "sang" and "win"; both of these are not ambiguous with normal English orthography. 18:35:46 Because they use normal English orthography, you don't need to learn anything more. 18:35:51 Phantom_Hoover, I'd say it's "sang", "gwin" 18:35:53 But isn't it actually pronounced with /Ngw/ in the middle? 18:36:02 Ninja'd. 18:36:22 Right; that was more a misstep on my part. 18:36:23 But your point's still there :) 18:36:35 Taneb's representation works. 18:36:49 With sang + gwin, though, the syllable break is in the wrong place. 18:37:12 sounds very sanguine 18:37:18 in French, it's /sA_~gin/. 18:37:32 wow 18:37:34 If you can pronounce it with the two different syllable breaks I am very impressed 18:37:35 really? 18:37:55 Phantom_Hoover, it's sorta sa-nggwin 18:38:02 Nope. 18:38:21 boily: that is an okay way to pronounce it, but i'll continue to pronounce the u 18:38:23 With a weird, nasal a sound 18:38:26 Kinda french, maybe? 18:38:29 It's sang-gwin vs. sangg-win. 18:39:00 Well, I guess I'm weird, which isn't news to anyone 18:39:12 How would you represent French's /A_~/ in the "plain phonetic spelling"? 18:39:22 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure how to pronounce the second of those. 18:39:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:39:45 doesn't make sense to me in English even. (And other languages are irrelevant here) 18:39:48 quintopia: that's an heresy! :p 18:39:55 You wouldn't, because it's not a common English phoneme? 18:39:57 public announcement: the heap of threads you're considering picking up from the floor _may_ in fact be a spider. 18:39:58 oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 18:40:02 end public announcement. 18:40:16 Phantom_Hoover, right 18:40:16 Vorpal, I have no idea how to pronounce the two differently. 18:40:20 So, Phantom_Hoover, you'd use a different system for each language. 18:40:35 @messages 18:40:35 elliott said 1h 30m 39s ago: Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort 18:40:35 it out : 18:40:36 elliott said 1h 30m 36s ago: *:p 18:40:42 Phantom_Hoover, I guess maybe shifting the stress? Nah... 18:40:50 Maharba: as in ɑ̃ ? 18:41:02 (don't know if encoding went through) 18:41:11 elliott: well it's an accurate assessment of _some_ of the implementations. 18:41:13 Yes? It's useful for representing English words in English, not French ones. 18:41:21 I got the letter fine, boily. 18:41:30 with the tilde and all? 18:41:32 Phantom_Hoover, oh was it supposed to be French? 18:41:36 Yes, boily. 18:41:45 admittedly i just today removed that feature from the pascal one 18:41:55 But IPA is generally useful; you don't need multiple systems. 18:41:57 Sanguine is a French loanword, but its English pronunciation is significantly different to the French. 18:42:07 Maharba, but it is not as accessible. 18:42:30 So if you're making a dictionary for people who don't want to learn the IPA, it's not a good choice. 18:42:36 Phantom_Hoover, I /guess/ the French pronunciation would be be more nasal? 18:42:37 To a non-native English speaker, the "englishy" system would be less accessible. 18:43:18 Even to some native speakers of English, IPA is easier. 18:43:22 non-native speakers do not generally know IPA either 18:43:25 OK? I said the system had limitations from the start, you don't need to point all of them out. 18:43:31 Maharba, I'm not a native English speaker, but I never managed to remember IPA (if I needed it I just checked the key of the dictionary), the "englishy" system would work better for me nowdays at least 18:43:47 does anyone know what Tektur's latest messages on the community portal talk page mean 18:44:23 Um 18:44:44 It makes sense but not in a way that fits into words. 18:44:46 elliott, I think he wants an OS written in an esolang for use as an emulation environment. 18:45:14 Or should that be in an emulation environment? 18:47:03 it would probably be possible to write an OS in for example brainfuck, easy to compile to native code (you would need an extension for embedding some inline asm for the platform in question of course, unless you designed the ISA to fit what brainfuck could do) 18:47:42 For example, using memory-mapped controls. 18:47:47 Well I mean if you can embed asm it's trivial to write an OS in BF, just not very interesting. 18:48:40 Phantom_Hoover, well, the challenge would be to use as little asm as possible 18:49:12 on x86 at least you will at least need some to poke various system registers and such 18:49:36 It would be a bit trickier to compile, but I think memory-mapped controls might remove any inline asm need. 18:49:50 Hmm, how much access to registers does x86 actually need? 18:50:10 Depends on if you want to stay in 16-bit mode or not I guess 18:50:40 but if what you are doing doesn't fit into the MBR you at least need to do a few BIOS calls to load more data from the disk 18:50:53 Maharba, that would either need a hypervisor or a custom ISA I guess? 18:51:05 not sure if I understood you correctly though 18:52:17 or I guess you could let grub load you into protected mode with multiboot 18:52:18 I hadn't thought it out much. Maybe the compiled code would poll those memory locations occasionally. 18:53:03 Maharba, well standard BF wouldn't allow you to do any waiting, you would have to busy loop 18:53:18 anyway one thing you would need is writing some interrupt handlers (if you want input) 18:53:43 of course, it could keep polling 18:53:55 You could have some memory locations be addresses for interrupt handlers. 18:54:14 also for it to be an OS I think you would need something more than a program just running on bare bones 18:54:19 Then we get into self-modifying code, though. 18:54:23 like the ability to run different programs 18:54:38 BF's Turing-complete, it can run other programs. 18:54:47 Maharba, well the code you wrote I mean 18:54:57 the program that was the OS 18:55:21 there is of course no clear line between what is just a program running on bare metal and what is an OS 18:55:38 My statement about self-modifying code was not in reply to yours, but a continuation of my previous one. 18:56:01 right 18:56:24 anyway, I imagined it being compiled into native machine code. 18:56:35 That would work. 19:03:06 Oh, PeterMolydeux actually has more followers on twitter than Peter Molyneux. 19:03:47 Phantom_Hoover, which one is the fake? 19:03:54 deux 19:04:06 right 19:04:47 I only follow the latter 19:05:18 you follow real peter molyneux 19:07:22 I recall trying Fable 2 and getting bored quickly. 19:08:14 It was better than Fable 3 19:08:44 So's ulcerative colitis, from what I hear. 19:08:45 Phantom_Hoover, was there ever a good Fable game? 19:09:01 Except if you played as a female character in 2 you ended up looking like a East German shotputter 19:09:14 (I haven't played any of them, but I haven't heard anything good about any of them) 19:09:16 Vorpal, well I hear they're pretty fun as far as sidequests go, and the combat is decent. 19:09:32 2's magic was a bit slow, too 19:09:42 Phantom_Hoover, Hm. So better combat than TES? 19:09:52 But the main plots are abysmal and it of course falls victim to the Molyneux hypefest. 19:10:06 doing a google image searcch: East German shotputter Heidi Krieger underwent gender reassignment surgery 19:10:22 Vorpal, probably, but TES combat is pretty bad, although it's definitely improved. 19:10:33 Phantom_Hoover, to me it sounds like you mostly described Oblivion: fun side quests, abysmal main plot. :P (Though yeah TES has terrible combat) 19:10:55 Yeah, but the problem with Fable is that it railroads you into the main plot. 19:11:00 ouch 19:11:10 so not open world? 19:11:16 It's not like a TES game where you can fuck off and only miss out on a handful of dungeons. 19:11:29 You *have* to go through it to access new areas. 19:11:54 I never finished the main quest of oblivion. I did finish the Shivering Isles main quest. That was pretty decent actually. 19:12:13 she basically said fuck it, and went the whole way after being "force-fed cocktails of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs" 19:12:39 itidus21, WP article says she had gender dysphoria even before the drugs started. 19:12:44 humm 19:12:57 ok! 19:13:43 Phantom_Hoover, anyway, what about Fable 1? I don't remember hearing /anything/ about that game ever 19:13:50 since there is a 2 there is presumably a 1? 19:13:57 Better than 2, apparently. 19:14:00 lol. 19:14:14 vorpal just doesn't follow peter molyneux very closely 19:14:21 indeed I don't 19:14:23 why would I 19:14:26 Still has a bad main plot. 19:14:39 he has such an interesting surname 19:14:55 hm what happened to that kingdoms of amalur? Didn't the studio that made it go bankrupt recently? 19:15:13 Yes. 19:15:40 not only that, rhode island had heavily invested in the company 19:15:52 heh 19:17:31 Vorpal, oh also Fable shows a deep window into Molyneux's view of morality, i.e. that all ethical dilemmas boil down to "murder this child pointlessly or pay a million pounds to buy it a pony". 19:17:58 I /assume/ that is an exaggeration? 19:18:08 Not by much. 19:18:11 ouch 19:18:35 did he ever make something good? 19:18:54 Vorpal, no, he killed the child pointlessly 19:19:00 His work in the 80s and early 90s is praised. 19:19:10 Phantom_Hoover, ah okay 19:19:36 He's kind of coasted on that since. 19:20:14 If you ignore the morality and the main quest and the east german shotputters and the really slow magic, Fable 2 was a fun, entertaining game 19:20:44 Taneb, but as Phantom_Hoover pointed out you needed to proceed with the main quest to unlock various areas? 19:20:59 Yes 19:21:10 so what you just suggested is in fact impossible? 19:21:16 Most of the world is available before the final, stupidly long mission 19:21:47 Also ISTR that the world involves a lot of quest hubs that you move between, but I played for a fairly short time a long time ago. 19:22:06 If you are doing an open world game you really shouldn't force the player into any direction once they completed your tutorial level (Oblivion and Skyrim did it right. And from what I remember Morrowind didn't really have a tutorial except you had to walk through a couple of doors, no combat that I can remember) 19:23:38 btw, that is one issue I had with GTA4, you had to do quite a bit of the main quest to unlock all islands. 19:24:01 looking on wikipedia, listening to what has been said about fable games in here.. bullfrog made good games, lionhead studios didn't 19:24:11 it's pretty much that simple 19:26:32 The Movies was a fun machinima tool 19:26:42 brb 19:29:54 i really liked theme park and syndicate 19:30:07 i thought they were awesome 19:30:24 dungeon keeper i haven't tried 19:31:22 I most often hear it compared with DF, which can only be a good thing. 19:31:57 he decided to make a game where you control the bad guys, and have to fend off heros.. i think its utter genius 19:32:14 Sounding like Molydeux there. 19:33:56 Phantom_Hoover, from what I understand it, it is more like you are running the bad guys though 19:34:18 and I only heard good things about it 19:34:39 You're both making it sound like the only great thing the game did was have you play as the bad guys. 19:35:06 Phantom_Hoover, nah, I meant I only heard good things about the game in general 19:35:16 but the big gimmick of the game was that you were the bad guy. 19:35:17 i don't know anything else about it really 19:35:17 There are other games where your character is bad guy including some text adventure games 19:35:42 Phantom_Hoover, luring heros into your dungeon and killing them and that sort of stuff 19:36:00 well the heroes come for you because you're evil :)) 19:36:33 the premise makes me laugh, i'm sold on it 19:36:44 itidus21, also presumably for looting? 19:37:23 one guy working on xbox live indie games(XBLIG) was trying a similar concept based on mario games. 19:37:48 That reminds me, how do I go about making android apps? 19:37:57 itidus21, based on mario? What would Nintendo think about that? 19:38:10 yeah i recall a few people were critical of that aspect of it 19:38:30 not literally mario but a clone 19:38:38 but I guess there could be a second mario game where you could play as bowser (Super Mario RPG had Bowser join your party at one point) 19:39:12 This program is funny even though i don’t understand the language. Apparently the name translates roughly to “don’t try this at homeâ€. http://wgeostreaming.zdf.de/zdf/veryhigh/120629_folge1_nin.asx 19:39:13 (he had been thrown out of his castle by a greater evil, so you basically decide to join forces, for the moment) 19:42:06 though i have super mario rpg rom.. and i am a final fantasy fan and a super mario fan.. ive still never played that 19:42:27 itidus21, I had some problems emulating that rom. Not sure why 19:42:38 never completed the game due to it freezing a lot. 19:42:46 oh crumbs 19:42:49 it was however a stellar game 19:43:05 If you have some problems emulating that ROM, then it is a good thing you have it because then you could try to fix the emulator. 19:43:09 itidus21, I don't think I tried bsnes, my computer at the time couldn't run it. So I probably used zsnes 19:43:47 so using the accurate model of bsnes might be worth a try 19:44:05 itidus21, the issues only really started towards the middle of the game 19:44:25 ah 19:45:27 My computer games do not always have a plot, for example some are just simple games which do not have a story (such as DOWN, BJACK, STARSTAK, MATCHNUM, Xnazzyball, Disk Catch, etc), while Super ASCII MZX Town has not a very good plot since you just figure out stuff as you go along, find keys and keycards, and then BIG_MONSTER at the end... 19:46:55 There is also MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER; once BIG_MONSTER says to him "I am sorry Dave, I cannot let you to do it" and then he responds "Hay! How do you know my real name?" 19:47:51 A wild Zzo (Lv. 38) appeared! 19:48:35 But mostly they consist of rooms that do not have much relation between their purposes; they are just various different areas such as the store, library, puzzle game, castle (with two sides: the kingside and the queenside), the Spanish Inquisition, etc. They are just various places you either go to find keycards, keys, or the passage to next area 19:51:41 And in one level you have to beat Dr.Gray, who has a laser proof vest, and if you beat him then he gives you the purple key (the only thing he owns that isn't gray). 19:55:40 Goodnight 19:55:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:58:44 But, the other game I make (not quite complete, but much shorter than Super ASCII MZX Town) is Potion of Confusing, which has a somewhat better and more coherent plot: Go into the passages to find nice purple keys. Hold second one as you hold a pencil. 20:00:48 The king hates anyone who has solved these puzzles also hates gibbering mouther and so on, so the king has ordered his army to kill them (and you). To stop them, you have to find the contract and write "VOID" on it, but first you have to go to library to learn about it, and it has a magic on it that you cannot adjust it except by writing on it by the second purple key. 20:01:03 Once you wrote "VOID" then the army will attack the king instead. 20:03:47 -!- Maharba has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:04:19 And then you can find the Potion of Confusing. 20:11:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 20:12:39 Poor lion :-( http://youtu.be/6fbahS7VSFs 20:18:26 in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps toniiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 20:18:50 -drum solo- 20:24:16 hi 20:25:07 Ziim looks really awesome. 20:25:18 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:25:25 -!- ion_ has joined. 20:29:39 oerjan: An other one, compiling on JDK1.1 (just in case you have some reason to stay away from ORACLE). 20:30:12 oerjan: btw i don't know if http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33024 broke anything or not 20:30:19 hmm 20:30:23 oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33025 he reverted your change, it seems. 20:30:38 oh you replied 20:34:52 i don't think that broke anything, the two switched lines should never be triggered on the same iteration 20:35:43 -!- ion_ has changed nick to ion. 20:37:27 the pascal change broke some things, which i fixed again. i'm pretty sure OR is an original pascal keyword, but that doesn't matter so i didn't undo that. 20:37:55 i'm wondering if i should fix his java, given that JTS's java is _also_ broken 20:38:24 although in a different way 20:38:34 elliott: ^ 20:51:00 Can you generalize van Laarhoven lenses to other categories? 20:53:18 oerjan: heh 20:54:46 I have thought of why you wanted (>>=) to be a method of a monad class, but I think return and join should be, and then require it to be a endofunctor as a superclass. Well, I think (>>=) shouldn't be, but perhaps as well as return and join, (=<<) can be made a method so that they can define in terms of each other including the endofunctor. Since, this way it can work for monads on other categories too. 20:55:44 (=<<) is like a functor from the Kleisli category (represented using the base category instead of the Kleisli category) to the base category. 20:56:12 That is why I think (>>=) should not be a class method. 20:57:06 And also why join should be a class method. 20:57:20 hey elliott does scone rhyme with con 20:57:35 Yes. 20:58:10 very good 20:58:35 (its important you keep track of whos harbouring scone heresy) 21:00:28 * oerjan has less and less idea how to pronounce english lately 21:00:47 tip: it's not exactly norwegian 21:00:57 WOW 21:01:13 I know! it's mind blowing 21:01:31 oerjan, just pronounce scone correctly and you're good. 21:01:36 Everything else is window-dressing. 21:01:46 (Look it up in the dictionary if you don't know.) 21:02:13 AAAAA wiktionary shows _two_ options 21:02:38 CHOOSE 21:03:41 ah but it's ok because only one of them is allowed to rhyme 21:04:23 Phantom_Hoover, how is it pronounced? (Not IPA please, I never managed to remember that) 21:04:52 "scon"? 21:04:56 Yes. 21:05:07 Awful people say 'scoan'. 21:05:25 Phantom_Hoover, heh I thought it rhymed with "cone" 21:05:37 oh well, we learn something new every day 21:05:42 If the dictionary shows two options then probably both are acceptable 21:06:16 NO that is WRONGHEADED SCOAN THINKING 21:06:24 * oerjan watches an unstoppable Phantom_Hoover hit an unmovable zzo38 21:06:41 oerjan, is that an SCP reference? 21:06:48 no. 21:06:49 I seem to remember something like that from there 21:06:51 oh well 21:07:01 No, it's a reference to the unstoppable force meets immovable object idiom. 21:07:12 oh okay, that is an idiom? 21:07:17 which scp may very well have used... 21:07:45 ancient scholastic conundrum, i thought 21:08:04 the solution is of course that no such objects exists 21:08:20 related, I think, to that one about god constructing an object he can't break 21:08:34 also almost a chuck norris fact 21:08:38 :D 21:09:34 seriously though, why did Chuck Norris end up with that meme. He isn't the only actor that played baddass roles. 21:09:38 badass* 21:09:53 I guess he was lucky 21:09:54 Arnold Schwarzenegger for example 21:10:13 (he got the "I'll be back" one though) 21:10:50 there used to be facts about other actors, but when those facts heard about chuck norris they changed 21:10:52 I remember very vague bits and pieces of a (probably sci-fi-ish) novel that had unstoppable force/immovable object stuffs in it. Also, it was weird. 21:11:05 Oh, it wasn't sci-fi, it was just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_on_Glass 21:11:19 Walking on Glass! 21:11:34 That's my favourite Banks novel because it makes absolutely no goddamn sense. 21:11:34 Vorpal: maybe you should consult the Internet, it might know stuff like that 21:11:53 "Iain Banks commented that the book 'didn’t do exactly what it set out to do and I think you have failed to an extent if the reader can’t understand what you’re saying. I worry sometimes that people will read Walking on Glass and think in some way I was trying to fool them, which I wasn’t.'" 21:11:59 olsner, guess what I'm doing atm! 21:11:59 Yes, it really doesn't. 21:12:03 "... and the ending has a flavour of incest." 21:12:13 olsner, yes IRC is part of the internet 21:12:24 (you maybe meant "the world wide web"?) 21:12:34 olsner: I can't say I honestly remember that part. I just remember the weird games, and that the riddle was being used. 21:12:37 Vorpal: no, gopher 21:12:43 oh okay. 21:12:45 fair enough 21:12:49 I guess it does if you think about it, but he totally failed to actually tie anything together substantially. 21:14:03 Also the unstoppable force stuff is this man in this woman locked in this weird prison thing for some reason and they have to play games and when they finish a given game they get to offer an answer to the question and if they get it right they get let out. 21:14:08 Erm. 21:14:12 *man and this woman 21:15:20 Well, IRC, gopher, WWW, are all part of internet. We ask question in IRC but can also look up some things in Wikipedia. 21:15:21 (The other two thirds of a book consist of a man hankering after some woman who is secretly shagging her brother who is also his gay friend, and a paranoid construction worker.) 21:15:44 The Microwave Gun parts remind me of some other paranoid nutcase story. 21:15:56 Phantom_Hoover, this sounds kind of awesome 21:16:03 due to being so crazy 21:16:26 being a paranoid nutcase isn't as much fun as it sounds 21:16:36 mostly 21:16:57 Yeah, the problem is that the book draws you in with the promise that all these narratives will be taken together and brought to a close, and then completely fails to do so. 21:17:06 >_> 21:17:19 Phantom_Hoover, ouch. 21:17:55 Incidentally, "you can't have both in the same universe" was one of their answer candidates. 21:18:03 As was that stupid "The immovable object loses; force always wins!" 21:18:18 * itidus21 slowly starts to remember that good books actually exist. 21:18:21 that doesn't even make any sense 21:18:35 itidus21, you should go read the Discworld books maybe? 21:18:35 What about this answer? "The force passes through the immovable object." 21:18:39 The extent of their interaction is that the lovestruck guy obliviously triggers a car accident which injures the construction worker and the man in the prison wanders off and finds the construction worker plugged into a computer. 21:18:54 too mainstream 21:18:55 And this one? "The immovable object warps geometry so that the unstoppable force never manages to touch it anyways." 21:19:11 Also the answer is basically given during one of the worker's chapters as "the unstoppable force stops, the immovable object moves". 21:19:14 Phantom_Hoover, plugged into a computer? As in some sort of cyborg thing? 21:19:34 Vorpal, the sun's gone out and everyone's in a simulated world. Or something. 21:19:42 Vorpal: what i mean to say is that a given random book can be really cool, even if the author is unheard of :D 21:19:45 Phantom_Hoover, ah 21:20:00 Oh wait no, they're experiencing the memories of people in the past without actually influencing them or something. 21:20:08 the longer i go without reading books, the more i forget how good some of them are 21:20:09 How well do you think of the geometry one? 21:20:10 itidus21, right, but the Discworld books are still good. So stop trying to be hippie 21:20:10 It's one of the things that's never really elaborated upon. 21:20:29 Also there was that war thing. 21:20:34 i can't like a recommended book :D 21:21:04 Wasn't that a simulation too or something? 21:21:20 It might've been. The latter parts are especially vague to me. 21:21:26 Actually here is another answer I made up: "The unstoppable force never meets the immovable object because of quantum uncertainty; the possibility that it does is discarded and a different collapse is performed instead." 21:21:30 Hipster, Vorpal, you mean hipster. 21:21:31 the last book i read which counts as a book was the dwarf by par lagerkvist 21:21:41 that was smashing 21:21:44 But I remember that "the unstoppable force stops; the immovable object moves" answer that appeared somewhere. 21:21:56 I think it was on a matchbook. 21:22:10 Phantom_Hoover, err yes 21:22:11 weird typo 21:22:29 Oh yeah, paranoid construction worker gets sent to a psychiatric hospital in the wake of the car accident and finds the matchbook for some reason. 21:22:29 Another answer: "It is wrong because the movement has to be relative to something." 21:22:32 I can't imagine a hippie itidus21 XD 21:22:34 i don't know why.. maybe because i was excited that it said nobel prize on the side.. but i later learned that the author gets the prize not the book 21:22:44 Hey, I have to wake up in like three or four hours to catch a plane. That's suboptimal. 21:22:46 (I made up these answers) 21:22:48 Vorpal, well he already has disgusting long hippie hair. 21:22:53 he does? 21:23:02 have you seen a photo of him!? 21:23:04 Which answers do you think are better for this unstoppable force question? 21:23:15 fizzie, just don't sleep and then sleep on the plane! 21:23:41 Vorpal: i'm weird 21:23:41 Phantom_Hoover: It's like a three-hour flight, that's not much sleep. I should do some actual work after arriving and all. 21:23:53 fizzie, ouch, where are you going? 21:24:07 Vorpal: Belgium; that's why I was wondering about potential .be people. 21:24:11 ah 21:24:27 fizzie, what are you doing there? Work I presume from what you said 21:24:30 fizzie, then you get the same sleep either way! 21:24:46 one thing i learned about books is that most so-called classics really aren't very much fun in english 21:25:01 frankenstein was good. very good 21:25:03 Vorpal: There's a university in Leuven, I'll be visiting their speech people, who we've coauthored papers with previously too. 21:25:05 Are they better in Klingon? 21:25:17 i have a theory they might be better in the native language 21:25:20 (For a month.) 21:25:30 maybe i haven't actually read many 21:25:34 itidus21, well of course most books are better untranslated (if you can read the language in question) 21:25:35 and i'm purely speculating 21:25:46 guess why I have the Discworld books in English for example 21:25:56 Vorpal: Well, yes. 21:26:06 (or anything that was published in English originally) 21:26:15 ahhh 21:26:21 But still, if their native language is neither English nor Klingon, are some of them better in Klingon than English? 21:26:34 itidus21, matters a lot more than usual for Discworld due to all the puns. 21:26:52 ah 21:26:59 zzo38, .. Why Klingon? And why would I know Klingon? 21:27:07 I think I read somewhere that the Jabberwocky is better in Klingon than English even though it was originally written in English. 21:27:56 itidus21, anyway, surely you must have read some literature in a non-English language? What did you take as your second language in school? 21:28:06 no i haven't 21:28:16 I don't expect you to be able to read a novel in whatever the third language you took was 21:28:18 at most i've learned to say a few words in foreign languages 21:28:36 Vorpal: native english-speakers don't learn other languages, silly 21:28:41 i've never read an entire page of text in a foreign language 21:28:57 olsner, oh right 21:28:58 well i had some troubles in school 21:29:07 i was very eager about languages 21:29:12 except those who learn Klingon, I guess 21:29:13 but 21:29:23 humm 21:29:37 olsner, what about the languages from Tolkins books? 21:29:46 forgot what the elven languages were called 21:30:02 Sindarin and Quenya. 21:30:02 i don't know what actuality i am speaking about 21:30:06 Phantom_Hoover, thanks 21:30:18 They've got limited official vocabularies, though. 21:30:39 I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now. 21:30:42 Phantom_Hoover, I always mix the first one up with Simarillon (sp?) which is another Tolkin thing 21:30:47 basically there are conditions and requisites to learning any language 21:30:52 Phantom_Hoover, and why? 21:31:03 Vorpal do you really think I would know what Sindarin is but not the Silmarillion? 21:31:12 you can't just start learning without some kind of motive force 21:31:16 Phantom_Hoover, no, I just said I always mix them up 21:31:28 itidus21, a lesson you demonstrate all too well. 21:31:43 itidus21 has a motive force? 21:31:53 what is a motive force? 21:32:07 im trying to say something not sure what 21:32:30 olsner, it is a force that comes in two variants: the unstoppable and the unmoveable 21:32:36 olsner, I suspect itidus21 has the latter 21:32:59 like for instance, you can't have your cake and eat it 21:33:05 I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now. 21:33:06 What? 21:33:10 I suspect that an unstoppable motive force wouls still be unable to get iti to develop personally. 21:33:10 but you can desire, and even plan to have your cake and eat it. 21:33:27 elliott, I just admitted to knowledge of elf languages. 21:33:47 hahah 21:33:58 but, if you plan to have your cake and eat it, and if you act upon that plan, unbeknownst to you is that you will invariably fail 21:34:36 what 21:35:03 but if you just plan to have cake, without the constraint of eating it too, then you might succeed 21:35:22 Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry. I'm a friend of the elves, man. 21:35:40 elfiott 21:36:03 you 21:36:05 you've changed 21:36:26 `? elliott 21:36:36 elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? 21:36:40 so, for example, it's not enough to just buy a bilingual dictionary and begin study from there. 21:37:28 Phantom_Hoover, I'm surprised you haven't changed though after playing Skyrim. Some of the coolest ruins in Skyrim are the Dwemer ones. And those are elven (the Dwemer, dwarfs, were actually a kind of elves according to TES lore) 21:37:33 ironically, the most common type of book about foreign languages on any given bookshelf is the bilingual dictionary 21:37:34 elliott is a friend of nobody. Just a h8r. 21:37:37 :-( 21:38:12 They get a pass because they all disappeared whilst building a giant robot in a volcano so they could take over the universe. 21:38:21 They put most dwarves to shame. 21:38:22 well yes 21:39:00 Also when some other elves came grovelling for help after losing to Swedes they blinded and enslaved them which is hardcore dorf. 21:39:17 Phantom_Hoover, err? 21:39:19 what? 21:39:26 oh right, the falmer 21:40:20 Phantom_Hoover, anyway I think the dwemer ruins are the most interesting dungeons in Skyrim. After the 20th ruin with undead it gets kind of boring 21:40:44 sure a few dungeons have unique gimmicks that make it interesting but... there aren't that many of those 21:41:06 They have irritatingly tough enemies though so it kind of balances out. 21:41:13 well yes 21:41:17 what did you think of Blackreach btw (if you got there?) 21:41:50 Best location, although they could've tried a little harder to get you to explore than that awful collection quest. 21:42:09 pretty much what I thought too. "What a wasted potential" 21:42:40 I have nothing against collecting nirnroot as long as I can do it while on my way elsewhere 21:42:58 The DLC apparently adds more Falmer stuff so there might be more to do there. 21:43:12 ooh, when is it coming out for PC? 21:43:24 iirc there was an xbox timed exclusive deal on those 21:43:40 A month after the Xbox version. 21:43:53 well, when is the xbox one coming out? Or is it out already? 21:44:02 It's been out for like a week. 21:44:05 ah okay 21:45:27 Phantom_Hoover, oh also Blackreach was too hard to navigate. An outdoor style map would have been needed for it. 21:46:00 anyway I need to sleep, early morning tomorrow 21:46:02 cya 21:50:38 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:51:52 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:57:54 -!- derdon has joined. 21:57:57 I like GCC's ?: operator with nothing in between, since it is useful 21:59:01 Is it useful to you? 21:59:53 What does it do? 21:59:58 Some people hate the ? : operator in C (regardless of whether or not GNU extensions are used) but I think it is good (regardless of GNU extensions). 22:00:00 I'm guessing something like || in JavaScript 22:00:08 Lumpio-: Yes, it does the same as || in JavaScript 22:00:28 I like ?: because it's the only functional-style conditional in the language 22:00:38 Well, with a proper return value. 22:00:45 I guess you could hack some conditionals with && and || but... 22:02:25 They should also add the one that is like && in JavaScript. Sometimes I use multiplication for that purpose but it is not chort-circuiting and it has to be boolean on one side 0 or 1 to work like that 22:10:39 For instance when would you use that 22:12:12 Something similar is: send_note(ch,channels[ch].transpose+(channels[ch].octave+(c zzo38: i am working on another view 22:16:17 if applied to music, it would have 3 instructions for the flute (i am naive if the flute has extra aspects). #1 cover hole(x) #2 uncover hole(x) #3blow 22:16:51 perhaps #3 blow(duration) 22:17:10 maybe also #4 pause(duration) 22:19:35 this conception is based on esolangs (no offence) 22:20:02 If what is applied to music and have instructions for the flute? 22:20:33 my recent ideas 22:21:59 cover(3) cover(4) blow(2 seconds) pause(1 second) uncover(3) cover(2) cover(6) blow(3 seconds) 22:22:12 that would be the idea applied to flute 22:22:48 as i am not a musician, i don't know how well that applies 22:24:55 -!- monqy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:29:25 I don't know how to play flute, so I don't know either 22:48:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )). 23:01:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 23:02:13 -!- augur has joined. 23:04:35 -!- lament has joined. 23:04:46 holy shit guys 23:05:16 What about holy shit guys? 23:05:27 i just realized i ran a brainfuck golf contest ten years ago 23:05:31 mind blown 23:06:09 hi lament 23:06:15 Want to help us golf? 23:06:17 @where e_10 23:06:18 let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show 23:06:25 Er, not that. 23:06:26 @where pi_10 23:06:27 (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]] 23:06:32 @@ @run @where pi_10 23:06:34 "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062... 23:06:44 shachaf: why would i 23:07:05 How would I know your motivations? 23:07:34 presumably you have some sort of mental model of me based on past interactions and other data 23:07:58 I know you're unpredictable. 23:08:13 I found the scale of 16-31 harmonics in Wikipedia, I figured out the same kinds of things, except that I called 30 B and 31 B sharp (or C flat). 23:09:22 16=C 17=C#=Db 18=D 19=D#=Eb 20=E 21=F 22=F# 23=Gb 24=G 25=G# 26=Ab 27=A 28=A# 29=Bb 30=B 31=B#=Cb 32=C 23:21:24 zzo38: B# means C and Cb means B. perhaps call it B.25? 23:21:56 quintopia: In the standard scale, B# means C and Cb means B. But this is a different scale. 23:26:07 In a Bohlen-Pierce scale, D# is the same as E. 23:40:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:45:28 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:55:57 https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=62450 23:56:32 Wow. 23:56:55 It looks like it must have been autogenerated but I can't give the PHP guys that much creidt. 23:56:58 *credit 23:57:04 (i sneezed ok) 23:59:38 "has literally never been used by anyone" -- how would they know that? 2012-07-02: 00:00:04 The function actually has a hook that alerts them whenever it's used. 00:00:27 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 00:02:11 -!- lament has left. 00:04:39 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:04:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:05:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:05:22 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:05:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:05:49 -!- derdon has joined. 00:10:01 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:16:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:17:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:33:49 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:34:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:36:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:38:08 hi ais523 00:40:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:45:42 ttiolle ih 00:52:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:28:22 hi ais523 01:38:57 hi elliott 01:39:00 network issues 01:39:18 hmm, this year's junethack was fun; Berry played a game that scored more points than in all previous NetHack games ever added together 01:39:35 haha 01:39:39 how did they pull that off? 01:39:53 they found a 64-bit server :) 01:40:06 it actually took both him and me quite a bit of effort to work out how to max it on a 64-bit server 01:40:16 there are quite a few plain "int"s that get in the way 01:40:52 especially in encumberance 01:41:11 he was billions of times over his encumberance limit on the turn he ascended 01:41:17 haha 01:41:20 but apparently that doesn't affect #offer 01:41:40 ais523: there's a new roguelike that's popular in ##crawl you might like 01:41:41 (he actually needed two tries to do the last bit; the first time, he dropped the amulet for spellcasting and couldn't pick it up…) 01:41:44 what's it called? 01:42:16 ais523: Sil; http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/ -- it has neat things like giving EXP just for encountering monsters, identifying items, and reaching new depths, so you can do fun stuff like pacifist diving 01:42:29 ais523: it's technically a *band derivative, but rewrites almost all of the mechanics, and thoroughly discourages grinding 01:42:40 (there's diminishing exp returns for killing creatures of the same type, for instance) 01:43:06 it's supposed to focus on tactical combat and so on... elliptic is very good at it; I haven't had a chance to play it properly yet but mean to sometime 01:43:23 hmm, interesting 01:43:33 and ofc, angband's engine doesn't necessarily lead to angbandy games 01:45:14 a few tips if you do play it: the standard build works fine; pass -mgcu to use the curses interface, although you can also just build a curses-only build if you edit the makefile and choose that configuration; and the interactive tutorial is very good 01:45:34 oh, and the %s are walls. 01:46:47 ais523: oh yes, and if you're in a menu, ignore wherever it places the cursor 01:46:55 it may seem to correspond to where in the menu you are, but it is lies 01:47:14 ais523: oh, and you can turn on vikeys control in the menu 01:50:14 elliott: whywhywhywhywhy 01:50:19 am i giving a talk on agda 01:50:45 idk 01:51:27 what's a good example of something interesting I can prove with it 01:51:35 in like 20 minutes 01:51:39 to a group that doesn't have a clue 01:51:54 what's the group 01:52:18 coppro: one I've seen is proving that the reverse of the reverse of a list equals the list itself 01:52:33 (CSy lists, which have a head and a tail, and the standard recursive definition of reverse) 01:52:55 elliott: undergraduate mathematics students 01:53:04 ais523: looking for something more mathematically interesting 01:53:15 I don't need to explain every step 01:53:25 humm 01:53:25 but it needs to be such that it doesn't explode minds 01:53:56 think highschool 01:54:15 (the exact audience is the canadian undergraduate mathematics conference; I have a 45-minute talk and I plan to spend the first half or so explaining curry-howard and giving the very basics in agda 01:55:41 well whats the most trivial proofs? 01:56:39 I want something 'cool' 01:56:48 ideally 01:56:51 i assume that an equation such as 1+1=2 or c = sqrt(a^2 + b^2) alone is not sufficient to need proof 01:56:57 yeah 01:57:15 like, uniqueness of the reals is cool and deep, but it's probably too complex for my talk 01:58:36 (since it requires construction of the reals and field isomorphisms) 01:58:44 /might/ be able to do construction of the reals if I hurry 01:58:53 possibly a proof from group theory 01:59:39 agda has a surprising number of meanings 01:59:58 hehe 02:00:01 any ideaS? 02:00:03 *ideas 02:00:15 elliott: also you have ruined my life 02:00:21 I'm going to write a haskell package 02:00:25 good 02:00:34 did you learn haskell because of me ror something 02:02:04 elliott: no but you made me know about conduit 02:02:09 and now I'm going to write a utility library for it 02:02:22 2 bad conduit sux 02:02:39 lol 02:03:14 all haskell libraries suck 02:16:44 ? 02:17:26 i think its just that all haskell libraries that deal with anything called an iteratee, pipe or conduit tends to suck ;) 02:18:03 haha 02:18:20 I like conduit 02:18:27 cps is the best :P 02:19:23 edwardk: Extrapolating, by 2013 over 50% of Haskell libraries are going to be called one of those things. 02:19:29 shachaf: hah 02:19:41 shachaf: i'll keep up the good fight against the tide 02:20:07 thedwardk 02:20:44 i agree with the author of pipes on conduit but i don't like pipes either 02:20:52 if only cmccann hasn't mysteriously vanished I could use his library 02:20:55 *hadn't 02:21:57 What happened to cmccann? 02:22:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:23:08 he disappeared 02:23:09 mysteriously 02:23:16 at least i haven't seen him anywhere for months 02:23:47 ooh mystery 02:23:53 wasn't cmccann female 02:24:37 the plot thickens! 02:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe so??? 02:27:02 camccann? 02:27:16 I'm pretty sure camccann is female 02:27:53 well he has referred to himself with male pronouns on IRC so... 02:28:04 O.o 02:28:09 I don't think he was female. 02:28:15 Maybe he was, though. Who knows. 02:28:26 I like how we are using the past tense here. 02:28:38 I distinctly recall there being some Haskeller on SO who you referred to with female pronouns but oh well. 02:28:40 Phantom_Hoover: well you did say cAmccann.. and shachaf said cmaccann 02:28:49 perhaps different people? 02:28:57 The plot thickens. 02:29:01 oops now i started making typos 02:29:21 @google "whoever invented the mysterious force" 02:29:22 http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?browse&3 02:29:23 Title: Browse Quotes 02:29:33 I note that his website has a single enigmatic message on it. 02:29:37 edwardk: as far as I can tell, you produce interesting libraries 02:29:43 conduit and co are useful ones :P 02:29:50 and never the twain shall meet 02:29:51 edwardk's libraries ar eperfectly useful 02:29:56 as for camccann on twitter she just "I just unlocked the “4sqDay 2012” badge on @foursquare! Cupcakes and crowns for all! http://4sq.com/HRIX9p" 02:30:00 I use them regularly 02:34:07 camccann has a stack overflow rep of over 35,900 02:36:20 Like a bloodhound catching a scent, itidus21 is on the case! 02:36:31 hmm 02:36:41 i don't care it's not my business 02:38:05 Phantom_Hoover: Your first reaction to a dilemma *isn't* stalking? 02:38:33 Of course it is, laziness permitting. 02:44:47 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 03:01:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Guest39099. 03:23:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:28:35 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 03:38:36 -!- edwardk has joined. 03:44:38 re: cmccann cmccann is definitely male. i've met him and offered him a job before. =P 03:45:29 OK 03:45:54 he's also in michigan, while that christina person is in pennsylvania ;) 03:47:59 Do you know that I have recorded a Dungeons&Dragons game I was playing in (and it is still in progress)? 03:48:30 Do you ever use TeX? 03:52:22 -!- Maharba has joined. 04:06:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_entertainment_language 04:14:40 edwardk: pertinent questions from zzo38 I think 04:22:17 Other question includes: 04:22:17 ? 04:47:40 Do you think it should be return and join methods of Monad and then have Functor as superclass and (>>=) is not a method? I have read why you wanted (>>=) a method so I instead proposal (in Ibtlfmm, perhaps) to have (=<<) as a method because that way works better with other categories. 05:05:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:05:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:07:09 Personally I prefer the use of (>>=) in code to the use of a separate join and fmap. The latter two are almost always used in conjunction, and are harder to optimize when written separately, while the (>>=) is rarely much more expensive than join 05:07:59 Then you have: type MonadCR (c :: k -> k -> *) (m :: k -> k) :: & = (CategoryR r c, EndofunctorCR c m, MonadLawsCR c m, method return :: r x => c x (m x), method join :: r x => c (m (m x)) (m x), method (=<<) :: (r x, r y) => c x (m y) -> c (m x) (m y)); together with default definitions. 05:09:32 edwardk: I understand, and I also agree that often you do want to use join and fmap together and >>= is convenient shortcut I use that a lot. However I still think join should be a method so that you can define it in that way, and also I explained why there should use =<< as some method rather than >>= what do you think of this? (You would still have >>= but it is not a class method) 05:09:44 You do realize by naming a language after map succ "haskell", you open yourself to jokes about making haskell succ, right? =) 05:10:24 edwardk: Now I do, and I have no problems with that. 05:11:07 the price of defining join with (>>=) is the evaluation of an identity function at each binding site. it has really near zero operational cost 05:11:51 i wouldn't mind defining them interrelatedly, but i don't really mind its absence 05:12:12 I agree; it could even be done and simplified at compile time if wanted somehow; but still you might want to define in terms of join. 05:12:59 aywys about the succ thing it only game up because i'm working on slides for a talk on how to use generalized de bruijn indices to make de bruijn succ less ;) 05:14:10 You should be able to define map/return/join or return/(=<<) and then the others (including (>>=)) defined from that. 05:14:40 yes. i do this in comonad 05:14:54 Yes I know that. 05:15:03 well i don't bother defining the duals of (>>=) and (=<<) interrelatedly 05:15:24 making all 3 interconnected leads to a lot of excessive flipping 05:16:03 afk getting food 05:16:56 In Haskell you cannot always define these things interrelatedly but perhaps Ibtlfmm may allow it by specifying mahematical laws. And do you understand the reason why I wanted to define (=<<) instead of (>>=) for use with other categories? It is like a functor from the Kleisli category (but represented by the base category) to the base category. 05:41:03 -!- Maharba has quit (Quit: Page closed). 05:54:44 yes, i use the same justification for why extend is the way it is 05:55:28 OK 06:04:01 I think #haskell are migrating here one by one. 06:04:38 That would probably result in a decrease of the net understanding of Haskell of the channel. 06:04:49 elliott: Well, those that are discussing things other than ordinary programming, anyways. 06:05:34 Some people can go on both channels, at least sometimes. Or even on other channels as well. 06:06:09 Other channels exist? 06:07:02 edwardk: Did you ever get that revisions stuff working? 06:07:17 yes, modulo replay 06:07:41 Neat. What's wrong with replay? (What's replay?) 06:07:50 i plan to ship a new version using the 'lca' package to deal with the online lca 06:07:57 and then i'll upload it to hackage 06:08:01 well 06:08:22 the actual version control operations are to define version controlled variables with a 3 way merge strategy, read/write from them, and fork, and join 06:08:39 but breaking the version control metaphor lets you add record :: Rev s a -> Rev s (a, Rev s a) 06:09:00 that gives you incremental as well as parallel computation and is the key to the ridiculous speedups you can get with this technique 06:09:09 that is the part that i haven't bothered to get working 06:09:46 That sounds like it would be useful for all kinds of things that I will never realise it would be useful for when coding them. 06:10:04 i haven't been using the general purpose library for this that i have lately but instead have been using a special case set of combinators for dealing with unification problems 06:10:20 in particular i wanted to use it for type error slicing 06:10:31 but that requires a few awkward extensions to the way the merge strategy works 06:10:37 have you read daan's paper? 06:11:06 http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=150180 06:11:11 really sells the performance win 06:11:21 I haven't; I'll do so tomorrow. 06:11:29 * elliott has been coding more C++ than Haskell recently :( 06:11:42 well, this ports cleanly to c++ as well ;) 06:11:51 What is your opinions of automatic type classes (meaning the instances are defined automatically by a macro defined at the same time as the class, and you cannot create your own instances)? 06:11:58 "I'll read that paper tomorrow" is one of the worst repeated lies I've told. :-( 06:12:04 shachaf: =) 06:12:12 edwardk: I don't attempt anything even vaguely elaborate in C++. 06:12:12 * shachaf has a big pile of papers to read "tomorrow". 06:12:24 shachaf: Hey, I specifically mentally noted to check the log for the link! 06:12:27 elliott: What are you doing in C++? 06:12:27 That counts for something. 06:12:54 zzo38: my opinion is that i'd rather just use ghc.generics and defaultsignatures and be able to override where its beneficial 06:13:25 elliott: load the file and look at figure 11 06:13:29 shachaf: Patching a tattered codebase from 2005 that thinks it's C for the most part. 06:13:31 elliott: that should motivate it ;) 06:13:37 elliott: Which codebase? 06:13:39 Crawl? 06:13:44 'parallel repeat' performance in particular 06:13:47 shachaf: Yes. 06:13:50 edwardk: It doesn't do the things I was intending though; also, this way I propose allows Typeable to be defined in this way, and so on, too. 06:13:52 Crawl. :-( 06:14:24 Wait, I think I have skimmed this paper on edwardk's behest before. 06:14:30 elliott: sounds like my personal hell 06:14:38 That's a good figure. 06:14:42 elliott: thought i'd sent you there 06:14:53 those numbers are on 8 cores 06:15:01 In Haskell it would be: auto_instance :: ([Type] -> Q [Dec]) -> Q [Dec] and then you can use this as a TH quotation inside of a class definition 06:15:27 shachaf: (Also it isn't actually Crawl, it's an abandoned, unbalanced pre-alpha version of Crawl before it got cleaned up.) 06:15:37 edwardk: I don't even have that many cores :( 06:15:40 Why are you patching that version? 06:15:51 elliott: Did your computer come back to life? 06:16:23 shachaf: monqy and no. (But that one doesn't have eight cores, either.) 06:16:48 (Even if it defines instances for everything, you still need to indicate the constraint if you are using something polymorphic, to use the methods of this automatic class.) 06:17:06 elliott: You gotta, like, finish playing Portal, man. :-( 06:17:43 (For example, you still need the Typeable constraint to be able to use typeOf and so on even though all types would have instances for Typeable.) 06:18:29 shachaf: I'll finish playing Portal by... 2015 at the latest. 06:18:30 Hold me to that. 06:18:46 elliott: Didn't we say something like a month? 06:18:55 it'll be 2015 sooner than later 06:19:13 shachaf: I didn't agree to any such constraints! 06:19:18 edwardk: What do you think of McBride's Frank? 06:19:29 elliott: :-( 06:19:42 i think i've largely given up on effect systems ;) 06:20:41 when you empower the language to automatically plumb effects around for you like that then all of a sudden a large number of previously equivalent programs are no longer equivalent. you are giving up information about internal workings, this means a lot of canonical combinators cease to be canonical 06:20:47 I quite like them. What don't you like about them? The objection I'm familiar with is the standard "you can distinguish 'equivalent' actions in interpreters", but I don't really see that as a huge problem. 06:20:57 Right, so it is the same. 06:21:11 so while map and mapM don't need to be defined separately, you often wind up having to define multiple directional traversals to push the effects around 06:21:21 Ah, I see what you mean. 06:21:24 Right. 06:21:30 and you close the door to lots of optimizations 06:21:39 I don't think it is strictly worse than what you have to do to define control structures in a strict language with explicit thunking? 06:21:46 when i code in a monadic style i'm at least explicit about what effects need to be serialized with regards to one another 06:21:58 and i don't introduce completely artificial sequencing barriers 06:22:23 working in a strict language with explicit thunking is just flipping terrible 06:22:51 edwardk: I don't like explicit thunking. But I do quite like being explicit about effectful computation vs. result. So... I'm inconsistent. 06:23:14 well, my main data points are scala and haskell here 06:23:20 haskell is a dream to work with, scala is a nightmare 06:23:30 a part of why scala is a nightmare is because of the strict defaults 06:23:37 which make scala monads a damn joke 06:24:37 Well, Scala is a nightmare in general. I was of the "total language and decide what evaluation order is later since it doesn't affect semantics" school before it came in vogue, but then Conor went and ruined it by getting it to the top of /r/haskell. :/ 06:24:46 in scala if i program with a monad i'm choosing to either a.) blow the stack on any non-trivial example because flatMap can't be a 'self-tail-call' and hence isn't subject to their limited form of tail call optimization or b.) run VERY slowly, because i've operationally transformed the monad using an explicit trampoline 06:24:49 (But then you end up with a notion of a thunk again if you introduce effects.) 06:25:14 By "no worse than", I just meant that the number of combinators you have to write is no more than would be required in a strict langauge with explicit thunking. 06:25:15 edwardk: What did you think about monad-embed? 06:25:19 Because that's essentially the distinction you're getting. 06:25:19 in a strict language with real tail call optimization, its a harder call, and you can get that in scheme. 06:25:49 shachaf: is that the scala abuse of delimited continuations to fake monads? 06:26:02 No, it's a language. 06:26:04 @where monad-embed 06:26:05 http://timmaxwell.org/pages/monad-embed/ 06:26:21 never saw it before 06:26:47 it looks a lot like andrej bauer's toy 06:26:58 same objections to it as i have to eff/frank 06:27:20 given the choice i'd probably go with mcbride's version since its the most principled of the 3 06:28:00 ddc is fine if the only effects you want to play with are boring crap involving scribbling to regions. if you need to talk about other effects its useless 06:28:12 DDC is really complicated. 06:28:13 eff was invented to solve a non-problem 06:28:15 The effect system stuff. 06:28:18 yes 06:28:23 I don't understand it. :( 06:28:26 I like Eff though. 06:29:01 well, andrej wrote it because he claimed you couldn't solve certain things in haskell with monads 06:29:22 and i showed him 4 years ago that he was wrong, whereupon he promptly forgot that fact and went and wrote it anyways ;) 06:29:50 haha 06:30:07 after he wrote up something recently i posted a rebuttal of sorts on my blog ;) 06:30:21 http://comonad.com/reader/2011/searching-infinity/ 06:30:25 I dislike monad transformers strongly enough that the downsides of effect systems seem minor in comparison, honestly. 06:30:31 Oh, I think I read that. 06:30:41 elliott: Since when do you dislike monad transformers? 06:30:52 the problem is that you run into the same problems you get with monad coproducts 06:31:07 yes, i can define the coproduct of two monads, its just useless 06:31:28 i can define the coproduct of two effect systems, but its just as useless 06:31:45 did you see the traffic on reddit today about monad coproducts? 06:31:59 i gave a long enumeration of things that can't be done with monad coproducts 06:32:01 I think Frank's effect system should suffice for a large variety of uses of monad transformers, really, although of course they can't do everything. 06:32:15 edwardk: Yes. But I try to ignore tailcalled. 06:32:16 all of these problems hold when you try to sprinkle arbitrary effects into an effect system 06:32:24 Right. 06:33:00 I still think the reduced power may be less annoying than monad transformers. But of course I've never actually tried to write a proper program in Frank. 06:33:07 i don't 06:33:10 i can't use them 06:33:13 i mean i've tried 06:33:19 I don't dislike transformers, but I also consider the transformers in a mathematical way 06:33:31 the -only- effects you can compose are reader/writer/state 06:33:55 all uses of non-determinism, local, pass, listen, callCC, etc. break this system 06:34:23 RWST IO *is* approximately 90% of Haskell transformer stacks. But yes, it's hardly ideal. :/ 06:34:27 Can you invent something perfect instead? 06:34:36 and notice half of those operations were in reader/writer ;) so you lost half the effects you had in there 06:34:36 no 06:34:38 it doesn't exist 06:34:44 And I do not mean only effect composition; I mean the monad transformers in general, and other transformers too. 06:34:51 Maybe you just didn't look hard enough! 06:35:17 i place the burden of the existence proof on you =P 06:35:38 :( 06:35:40 i've done my due diligence here, and besides smarter people than me agree it can't exist 06:35:56 What I mean by that is a homomorphism of those kind of things to a new one made up from that, so in other words if M is a monad and T is a monad transformer then so is (T M) and then a forward transformer homomorphism from M to (T M) while backward transformer homomorphism in other direction. 06:36:13 ghani and luth, ghani and uustalu, kelly's paper on layered finitary monads, etc. 06:36:18 edwardk: I'm just going to stick to C++. 06:36:25 Like deciding to be homeless because you can't have a mansion. 06:36:29 hahaha 06:36:41 C++ is certainly a home! 06:36:44 I program in many programming languages, including C and Haskell. 06:36:48 It's a maze of twisty little passages, all different. 06:37:11 Every time I think "this code could really use some more classes" a little bit of me dies. 06:37:43 well, monad transformers are stronger than the coproduct of the base monad and the State, etc monad they are transforming it with, which is the key insight into why they are better than coproducts 06:38:45 Well, I know you can't compose monads perfectly independently. 06:38:47 To make a sum of two monads, does it have to be on a sum of two categories that those two monads are on? 06:38:52 But transformers are so arbitrary. :( 06:38:54 And same with products too 06:39:01 I'll let shachaf complain about transformers instead, he is better at it. 06:39:13 elliott: transformers each individually arise for very very different reasons 06:39:20 elliott: and each one is fundamental in its own way 06:39:27 How are transformers so arbitrary? 06:40:10 zzo38: Good question! shachaf can answer it. 06:40:11 ReaderT works because (->) can distribute out over anything, WriterT because every functor is strong, state works because you can sandwich a monad inside an adjunction 06:40:23 cont works because (-> r) is self adjoint 06:40:41 edwardk: OK 06:40:44 there isn't a consistent way in which these things are the same 06:40:46 http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif 06:40:55 shachaf: Do you know how transformers so arbitrary? 06:40:55 except for the fact that they transform a simpler monad into a more complex one 06:40:57 thank itidus21 06:41:02 zzo38: Ask elliott. 06:41:03 that didn't go well 06:41:04 *s 06:41:08 zzo38: Ask shachaf. 06:41:13 edwardk: How do you mean? Isn't it a kind of monad laws, transformer laws, homomorphism, etc? 06:41:15 bastards 06:41:17 zzo38: elliott brought it up, not me. 06:41:19 if you start working with coproducts you _immediately_ quotient out the ability to allow them to interact 06:41:35 edwardk: Anyway, both you and McBride sound so convincing. 06:41:36 edwardk: Yes I can see that 06:41:41 zzo38: no, they aren't just two monad homomorphisms in from their constituent parts 06:41:51 So I'm going to go with McBride, because I'd prefer him to be right. 06:41:54 Take that! 06:42:17 like i said, his is the best of a bad bunch ;) 06:42:26 edwardk: Yes there is something more too see what I have written above, is that it? Is it somewhat difference? 06:42:37 http://i.qkme.me/3on7zh.jpg 06:42:40 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]). 06:42:58 itidus21: Did you just search "RWST IO meme" or something? 06:43:06 I'm upset that image exists. :( 06:43:23 That doesn't even kind-check. 06:43:30 i found the meme by accident! 06:44:12 Yes you are right it doesn't even kind-check. 06:44:16 zzo38: consider a monad coproduct defined by two monad homomorphisms, this isn't sufficient to give you what monad transformers give you, because it has to work symmetrically between the two monads. this means that there is quite literally no way for the coproduct of state and error to let you get the semantics of either of StateT s (Either e) or ErrorT e (State s), since the state effects backtrack or not depending on the layering y 06:44:16 choose 06:44:58 edwardk: I didn't say a transformer is a coproduct though, or vice-versa 06:45:12 But I do believe what you wrote 06:45:18 Ah, edwardk is talking to zzo38. I am free. Goodbye! 06:45:24 elliott: =P 06:45:28 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:46:10 itidus21: you probably also want to cps that so you can use speculation ;) 06:46:48 I have thought and figured out to make a monad on a category which is a sum of two categories from monads on each one, and the same things with products too 06:47:33 But this is dealing with different categories not the same one (although you can have the sum or product of a category with itself) 06:51:19 Therefore I do not understand why you are relating transformers with coproducts. 06:53:39 zzo38: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/vuty0/what_is_the_advantage_of_monad_transformers_over/ 06:54:59 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 06:59:37 OK 07:25:46 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:29:51 Do you like Famicom-MIDI? 07:29:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 08:35:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:47:49 -!- derdon has joined. 08:58:22 huh, a spammer has apparently sent me $1.6 million via DHL because of my bad experiences with FedEx 08:58:27 and is asking for contact details 08:58:53 I like to contact people through their credit card numbers. 08:59:11 (have you seen the theory that scammers deliberately make scams full of warning signs for people who know anything about them, to ensure that the only people who respond are idiots, who have a higher conversion rate than people who know about scams?) 08:59:53 1. YOUR FULL NAME 2. YOUR HOME ADDRESS.OR OFFICE ADDRESS 3. YOUR CURRENT HOME TELEPHONE NUMBER .4. YOUR CURRENT OFFICE TELEPHONE .5. A COPY OF YOUR PICTURE, FOR WELL IDENTIFICATION. 08:59:57 that's what they wanted 09:00:07 oh, Konversation screwed up the spaces again 09:00:08 ais523: Yep. That's a pleasing theory. 09:00:19 I'm not sure whether to believe it or not 09:00:25 I like it whether or not it's true. 09:00:36 I also like the theory that half the scams you get are from scam /victims/ who've been scammed with "make money fast via internet scamming" schemes 09:00:55 and thus are only designed to fool their perpetrators 09:01:41 A pyramid scam. 09:14:21 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:14:42 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:21:31 -!- ais523_ has joined. 09:21:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:21:43 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 09:24:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:25:18 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:28:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:29:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:53:47 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:55:10 -!- itidus21 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:55:10 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 09:55:10 -!- ssue has quit (*.net *.split). 09:55:10 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:41 -!- itidus21 has joined. 09:56:42 -!- atehwa has joined. 09:56:42 -!- ssue has joined. 09:56:42 -!- comex has joined. 10:07:15 -!- Guest39099 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:10:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:41:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:42:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange, oerjan | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 10:59:42 -!- ais523_ has joined. 10:59:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 10:59:45 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 11:58:53 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:59:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 12:01:05 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:19:20 > 17*17 12:19:22 289 12:49:22 -!- Jafet has joined. 13:01:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:01:19 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:05:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:13:55 Hello from Belgland. (Is this what this place is called?) 13:14:06 They have all the keys in completely wrong order, at least. 13:25:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:25:45 Hello 13:26:27 good morning! 13:26:51 @time boily 13:26:52 Local time for boily is Mon Jul 2 09:26:51 2012 13:27:05 GMT - 5? 13:27:12 GMT - 4 13:28:49 @time fizzie 13:28:53 Local time for fizzie is Mon Jul 2 16:28:50 2012 13:28:56 lambdabot: U worng. 13:34:25 -4 right now because of EST. 13:41:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:41:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:46:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:47:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:57:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:19:13 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:21:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:25:22 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:29:43 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:51:10 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:54:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:55:24 -!- augur has joined. 15:07:45 boily, east coast US? 15:12:13 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:15:01 -!- ogrom has joined. 15:29:23 Taneb: east coast canada. 15:29:31 :) 15:51:08 -!- elliott has joined. 15:55:53 !sanetemp 180 15:55:55 82.2 16:03:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: time to leave work). 16:05:16 !insanetemp 1000 16:05:17 1832.0 16:11:49 sanetemp is Fahrenheit -> Celsius, insanetemp is the other way. 16:15:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:17:57 Ohhhhhhhhh, I thought it was for temporary values of some kind. I was really confused. 16:21:50 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 16:32:44 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:02:05 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 17:05:40 -!- boily has joined. 17:07:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:18:44 It’s a brilliant idea to have locale settings affect how your code parses. https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=18556 17:20:01 lol 17:20:04 Oh, PHP 17:23:39 oh god 17:24:18 “class_exists() function uses zend_str_tolower(). zend_str_tolower() uses zend_tolower(). zend_tolower() uses _tolower_l() on Windows and tolower() on other oses. _tolower_l() is not locale aware. tolower() is LC_CTYPE aware.†17:25:50 Why do people still keep using that V: 17:26:12 In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY 17:26:41 And 0b0+10 == 12 17:27:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: dinner). 17:27:35 Gregor: what. 17:27:44 information overload: 11 items on my Windows(tm) taskbar, 23 tabs in my firefox browser, 4 channels in irc. noone to blame but myself 17:28:09 coppro: PHP logic 8-D 17:28:23 Gregor: is this on lolphp? 17:28:36 I know the 0x0 was. 17:28:58 http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/ 17:29:21 74 icons on my desktop 17:29:32 In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY <--- how... did those happen? 17:29:38 what did they interpret 0x0 as? 17:30:01 Vorpal: See http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/ 17:30:52 ouch 17:32:28 why does it skip the leading zeros, it doesn't hurt to interpret those... 17:33:16 also yeah strtol handles 0x already 17:34:25 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:37:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:38:28 -!- canaima has joined. 17:39:06 -!- canaima has quit (Client Quit). 17:39:39 Vorpal, 'optimisation'. 17:39:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:40:12 Phantom_Hoover, which of course makes no sense 17:40:38 No you see strtol probably handles those initial zeroes inefficiently. 17:44:12 Phantom_Hoover, if you profiled and found that to be the case the right answer to that is writing your own strtol then 17:44:20 it is not terribly complex to implement strtol 17:44:30 I did it when I needed a different overflow behaviour 17:48:52 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 17:50:16 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:51:40 Vorpal, you do not need to explain to me why it's stupid. 17:59:29 "list all of your computer skills (software, 17:59:29 hardware, operating systems, programming and other skills here)" 17:59:45 ^^ career development center person 17:59:56 That's..... uh.... what.... 18:00:24 There's no way that that's literal, is there? 18:00:36 Is anyone really interested in the fact that I know how to use XChat? 18:00:52 Or Chrome? 18:00:59 Yay! I know how to use a web browser 18:01:13 She took the liberty of adding Windows XP as a skill. 18:01:16 sgeo: i hope they have a lot of paper 18:01:49 my rule of thumb is if one of those forms is involved i probably am not interested in the kinds of positions they can supply ;) 18:02:34 Well, this isn't towards any particular position, just helping me write a resume 18:02:48 i'm sure my innate understanding of the inner workings of the 6502 will be critical to my future success. 18:03:11 coming out of college? 18:03:26 Well, still in college, want to get an internship while in college 18:03:33 fair nuff 18:04:17 I hate to ask, but are you still at Farmingdale? 18:04:28 Yes 18:09:17 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 18:15:55 Spam subject: "Gangbang tube full of desire" 18:15:56 D-8 18:21:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:24:07 http://www.resumagic.com/computer_skills1.html 18:24:08 What. 18:24:18 A hardware section? 18:24:45 I.... have the vague idea that I'm typing on a Toshiba computer right now 18:24:50 I'm not really a hardware person 18:32:14 6502 is great for making computer games 18:34:20 oh, wikipedia says bender on futurama has a 6502 brain 18:35:52 * itidus21 scuffles away back to his lab. 18:52:38 -!- elliott has joined. 18:53:00 @tell oerjan If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it. 18:53:01 Consider it noted. 18:53:58 nooo 18:54:06 maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter 18:54:07 r.i.p. 18:57:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:57:40 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 19:33:17 the end of an era 19:37:39 my brain has too many gotos 19:39:02 spaghettibrain 19:39:54 * olsner opens itidus21's skull and takes a spoonful of spaghettibrain bolognese 19:40:04 you... might not want to do that 19:40:14 you might not want me to do that 19:40:35 you haven't seen my desktop 19:40:47 I might not want to do that 19:41:32 i think maybe the way i think is just a reflection of the chaotic nature of the world 19:42:31 a reflection of the leftovers I left in there 19:43:07 I wonder what happened to the stuff I ate though 19:43:29 basically, i am producing content but i'm not organizing it 19:44:09 and i don't want to burden anyone else with that either 19:44:51 where i am really going wrong is i don't actually take the time to study what i am doing 19:45:08 watch a chilean monkey (ape?) speak about getting organized: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUbyL6yez4 19:47:14 his son speaks a bit later 19:47:45 but i also realize that it's entirely natural that observing or studying something leads to other things to observe or study.. and there is no real end to that 19:48:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:49:13 hi oerjan 19:49:16 hi elliott 19:49:17 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:49:21 @messages 19:49:22 elliott said 56m 22s ago: If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it. 19:50:15 maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter <-- SACRILEGE 19:50:34 i haven't even dared to fix the java one 19:51:46 it was misspelled by design and is now completely broken? 19:52:38 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:52:40 ...i assume maharba's fix didn't change the semantics, i haven't looked at it yet. 19:52:59 organizing items into categories is a recursive process of generating new categories until there is no longer a miscellaneous category 19:53:41 I think you should stop when the miscellaneous category is small enough, because it will never be eliminated 19:54:17 there is a finite set of items (in scope) 19:54:30 but admittedly new items can arrive any time 19:54:42 although finite, the set can be very large 19:56:23 but it's really ugly... no library ever has a miscellaneous section 19:56:45 maybe this is because the authors categorize their books in advance 19:57:37 someone should troll the libraries by writing an uncategorizable book 19:57:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: going to bed). 19:59:20 -!- edwardk has joined. 19:59:21 There is tensor category, and then perhaps you can make tensor diagram from that. But I suppose the lines are not allowed to cross unless it is commutative. 20:00:01 was that a response to the idea about an uncategorizable book? 20:00:11 No 20:00:20 i'm not thinking of mathematical categories really, but just layman categories 20:00:23 I did not even read what was written above 20:01:21 itidus21: I think they'll just add a new category for uncategorizable books and put your book in that category 20:02:24 https://github.com/net-alper/php-src/commit/0515360e9a8dcc86facb38cddeebe759e87dca52 20:02:31 oh my god this is the best patch ever 20:03:13 yes, it follows the spirit and style of the surrounding code perfectly 20:03:54 Are any of the numbers for categorizing books not yet used? If so, then use those numbers. 20:04:38 zzo38: the system is kind of extensible really :D 20:05:17 or they could just put the book in fiction since you made it all up to make it "uncategorizable" 20:06:18 anyway if you saw the kind of text files on my desktop you would understand why these things worry me 20:08:29 you have some kind of illness involving text files? 20:11:33 heres an example of a file on my desktop http://pastebin.com/uXe6Jbi1 20:11:53 i wouldn't recommend reading it, but a quick glance will get the point across 20:12:20 glossolalia? 20:15:19 I think there's another word for written glossolalia, and doing it a non-religious context, though 20:16:28 one problem with that file is it requires context to make any sense 20:17:28 hmm, ok, I don't have any context so it makes no sense 20:18:36 what the first part is saying is that there is a 12x12 bitmap using the alphabet {-,0} with rows and columns addressed by a letter followed by a number 20:19:13 and then it goes on to show the 4x4 bitmaps found at various addresses 20:20:02 found at various addresses? so you're reverse-engineering something? 20:20:06 Does any ephemeris data include camera angles? 20:20:17 well addressing as in a chessboard 20:21:23 then it tries to do the same thing with another 12x12 bitmap, trying to use this system to represent tetris pieces via addresses 20:23:08 then it goes on to a 4x4 bitmap, with 9 addresses from a1 to c3 and at each address determining the 2x2 sub bitmap 20:23:58 then tries to use these subbitmaps as tiles in a 3x3 grid 20:25:17 then some waffling about using xml to represent operations on bitmap, as well as a random list of urls so that i can close the browser tabs 20:25:35 why would you close those tabs? 20:29:01 lack of interest, or trying to focus on something else 20:29:22 also to try to free resources 20:29:40 How can I download an ephemeris with camera angles of camera satellites included? 20:33:11 next is a few random thoughts about video games, followed by an analysis of something called WarioWare D.I.Y. which is a nintendo game about making games which last about 8 seconds 20:34:28 so the last part i suppose is infact a reverse engineering 20:36:02 I read a bit in the beginning and a bit in the end, scrolling past the rest of it very quickly 20:36:23 so I found some bitmaps, some youtube links, and what looked like it could be some reverse engineering notes 20:36:31 lol lol 20:36:38 so infact they are all unrelated 20:36:57 and yet they are in the same text file 20:37:04 yup 20:37:16 I guess it's called New new New text file.txt or something like that? 20:37:23 123.txt 20:37:36 i tried to see if the "scratch" file on my desktop was similar, but it seems to contain only the design for my deadfish in itflabtijtslwi 20:37:44 do you have 122 previous text files that became full? 20:38:04 each one is a vain attempt at something substantial.. 20:38:40 theres 1234.txt stuff.txt stuff2.txt gaming.txt Document.rtf 20:38:55 another hopeful document.rtf 20:39:09 cool thoughts.rtf 20:39:49 New OpenDocument Text (2).odt, New OpenDocument Text.odt, Games.odt 20:40:13 etc 20:40:16 I found /code/scratch/BaconCongdon758.txt 20:40:25 it has tips on finding a good dentist, I think 20:41:13 and here's a copy of an e-mail with 11469 > characters from excessive quoting of the entire previous thread 20:41:56 (out of 837 lines ... but some of those came from line-wrapping the series of initial >s) 20:42:15 i even made a folder called Desk and copied my desktop into it mostly.. but that didn't stop it happening again 20:42:49 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:54:08 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:54:18 -!- elliott has joined. 20:56:59 * oerjan checks spelling and realizes alaind is probably not alan dipert 20:57:30 alain diperrier 20:57:37 otoh, if his actual name is alain dipert that might explain why alan dipert is sometimes so hard to find 20:57:49 olsner: ooh 20:58:10 elliott: wait, are you revealing secret wiki database stuff again 20:58:19 double up if it's actually alain diperrier 20:58:31 oerjan: no. 20:58:37 okay 20:58:42 oerjan: i am irresponsible, not negligent. 20:59:05 oerjan: however, note that, IIRC, realnames are public in mediawiki. 20:59:05 i... may not be entirely sure of the difference. 20:59:18 one sounds worse than the other 20:59:20 oh they are? 20:59:24 i believe so 20:59:28 which one sounds worse? 20:59:29 elliott: which one? 20:59:32 negligent 20:59:41 but that's so negligible 20:59:43 at least to me. 20:59:46 I think irresponsible sounds worse, it sounds more intentional 21:00:04 negligent sounds like forgetful 21:00:51 oh, shut up. 21:01:03 elliott: i don't know how to find realnames... 21:01:06 elliott is about to become one of those english people who go out in the world and discover that their words mean completely different things out there 21:01:50 oerjan: me too 21:02:06 neither? 21:03:00 "Real name is optional. If you choose to provide it, this will be used for giving you attribution for your work." 21:03:47 so presumably there's some way to make attributions... 21:09:05 -!- itidus20 has joined. 21:09:34 it's decrementing! 21:10:44 what 21:10:51 the itidus 21:11:27 Is there any relation between tensor categories and Penrose tensor diagrams? 21:13:07 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:13:26 * itidus20 ++ 21:13:32 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 21:59:07 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 21:59:26 wikipedia's down! 21:59:45 yeah that's what i'd say if i was boiling too 22:00:49 I always forget the fact that my family name sounds like boiling in English... 22:01:35 I'd probably be aaaaaahing too if I were boiled alive. 22:01:51 just change your nick to bwalee and we'll stop being confused 22:02:07 -!- boily has changed nick to bwalee-not-confu. 22:02:34 -!- bwalee-not-confu has changed nick to unconfused-bwale. 22:02:45 -!- unconfused-bwale has changed nick to unconf`d-bwalee. 22:02:48 there. 22:03:00 EXCELLENT 22:04:37 so it's "oi" as in "au revoir" 22:04:38 the perfect nick 22:06:47 oh ruvwar 22:12:24 -!- ion has joined. 22:12:28 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:13:40 -!- SimonRC has joined. 22:15:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:28:12 Oh wow. 22:28:51 Apparently OpenOffice used to (as in 2011-and-possibly-still) delete all backup files when it crashed. 22:30:03 nice 22:32:21 how convenient 22:32:57 Also found this gem: "In my experience, quality goes something like: 22:32:57 (worst) commercial <<<< open source < (most) commercial << open source (best)" 22:33:02 Oh 22:33:03 wait 22:33:04 dammit 22:33:14 I thought that last one said commercial (best). 22:33:26 No, I agree 22:33:32 MAYBE I SHOULD READ THINGS FIRST 22:33:35 The best OSS stuff beats the commercial stuf 22:33:42 but only the best 22:33:46 OOo is far from the best 22:33:49 (or LO or whatever) 22:34:18 Yeah, I just thought they were lumping all open-source stuff together whilst fractionating commercial software by quality. 22:34:37 Yes, actually I do think "proprietary < open-source < proprietary < open-source" does describe how good the software is. I have not thought of that before but it does look correct to me. 22:35:34 What document numbering system should I use, such as "I.2.iii" or "1.2.3" or etc? 22:36:31 Roman numerals, then Arabic, then lowercase Roman, then Greek, then Hebrew (ask shachaf). 22:37:53 I only need three levels. 22:38:09 Roman, Greek, Hebrew. 22:38:22 And it needs to work with TeX. 22:38:22 For that authentic old-world feel. 22:38:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:38:43 Does TeX not have the capacity to display the Greek alphabet. 22:38:54 Because I thought that was quite a big deal. 22:39:09 Phantom_Hoover: not after the euro scandal 22:39:40 Phantom_Hoover: Hmm? 22:39:45 It can display math Greek alphabet. 22:39:57 But it doesn't have the ordering built-in 22:40:13 With the proper fonts you can display anything but I don't want to have to add fonts 22:40:39 shachaf, didn't you say it's one of those sum-numeric-values-of-letters systems except you're not allowed to spell out any of the names of God. 22:40:45 are fonts monochrome? 22:41:12 itidus21: Yes, but even if it isn't, the printer may be monochrome anyways 22:41:22 one chrome to rule them all 22:41:52 I am starting to make the document for ITMCK. 22:43:43 the printer _should_ do subpixel dithering, in a perfect world >:-) 22:58:08 The fonts are stored as METAFONT programs which will output a metric file, and then when you tell it what printer you use can output the font raster for that printer as well. 22:59:18 How does a printer going to do subpixel dithering? 22:59:28 basically i think it would be fun to make a font based on NES tilesets 23:00:25 but then again, i am rambling nonsense 23:00:46 Printers have subpixels? 23:01:22 I did once write a program to make a METAFONT file from 8x8 monochrome character bitmaps; it could then be included from a METAFONT program that uses that data to apply effects and ship out. 23:11:05 ion: well, i don't know the correct terms to explain what i have in mind 23:12:14 if i have a 4 color image, and if it is to be printed in black and white, it needs to be dithered at some stage 23:12:18 just use nanobots to print 23:12:22 i guess its silly to demand the printer to do that 23:12:39 maybe the font should be dithered! 23:13:20 ya.. now i'm getting somewhere 23:13:21 -!- monqy has joined. 23:13:30 Well, it would be possible to program METAFONT to perform dithering although it cannot be subpixels 23:13:40 dithered fonts 23:13:54 @messages? 23:13:54 monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 23:14:34 @ask monqy hi monqy, we missed you 23:14:34 itidus21: Isn’t that kind of dithering typical? 23:14:35 Consider it noted. 23:14:41 elliott: MONQY DETECTED 23:14:43 can you name a dithered font? 23:15:04 i dunno when it happens. maybe it's part of the vector rendering 23:15:56 well there is â–‘â–’â–“ 23:16:14 hither and dither 23:16:25 monqy: hi 23:16:28 â–‘â–’â–“â–ˆ 23:16:30 Those belong to CP437 (and to Unicode) 23:16:38 monqy Are you going to the conference in San Diego? 23:16:43 They are often used in ZZT and MegaZeux games 23:19:27 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 23:21:34 zzo38: but suppose you are using graphics mode, and font resolution isn't a scarce resource... 1920 / 256 = 7.5; 1080 / 224 = 4.8; so you can get away with 7.5x4.8 black and white pixels per NES pixel (allowing for stretching) 23:22:29 You could convert the file into the format that METAFONT (or TeX) can read and then write the program to make it to print out. 23:22:36 but my eyes tend to percieve movement with some effects like that. really awkward 23:22:44 I have written a program in TeX to print ASCII PBM pictures on a document. 23:23:58 What is the postal address to send a note if you lost a copy of GNU GPL? 23:29:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 2012-07-03: 00:02:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:11:47 this depicts what i have described http://oi46.tinypic.com/2rz989c.jpg (proof i have too much free time) 00:12:59 :\ 00:13:36 the intention is that i could make a NES tile font using methods similar to that 00:16:23 could being the keyword, perhaps a better word is won't 00:22:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:34:16 Can a Penrose diagrammatic tensor notation be used with some restrictions with a tensor category? Use different lines for different objects, and different restriction depending on the category such as no crossing lines unless it is a commutative tensor category. 00:43:42 There may be other restrictions too to ensure it is unambiguous. 00:52:03 What is it called when an initial object of a category C is final in a Kleisli category of a monad M on C? 00:53:11 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 00:54:19 In Haskell, the Maybe and [] and Finalize monad have this property. 00:55:02 What's Finalize? 00:55:10 zzo38: how do you mean initial -> final? 00:55:37 oh, I sort of see it here 00:55:49 Finalize monad is the monad of the endofunctor that all objects go to the final object. In Haskell it would be: data Finalize x = Finalize; 00:56:00 most people call it Const 00:56:02 Oh, my favourite monad. 00:56:06 I always called it Null. :-( 00:56:37 There is also the Initialize comonad which is the comonad of the endofunctor that all objects go to the initial object. In Haskell it is: data Initialize x; 00:56:38 sorear once said that Identity would be the initial object and Null would be the terminal object in a category of monads. 00:56:41 Or something like that. 00:57:10 copumpkin: What do you mean, "how do you mean initial -> final"? I just mean initial and final objects in a category. 01:01:30 Are they the same ones which the "right zero law" of the MonadPlus class applies? 01:03:44 I think it means (Kleisli Maybe) category includes zero-morphism which are (Kleisli $ const Nothing) 01:08:58 Ooh, Charles Stross AMA. 01:13:41 Phantom_Hoover: What is that? 01:14:02 http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA 01:20:10 Eew, he likes Heinlein. Maybe Heinlein isn't as bad as literally everything about him suggests, 01:20:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:28:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:14:04 i get the impression the web was in use in 1989 02:15:19 what 02:16:37 well theres patents which were filed in 1989 which have urls.. oh it's a re-examination maybe 02:17:16 ok reexamination certificates 02:17:24 have urls on tehm... confused me 02:23:00 elliott: what i'm really trying to figure out is, is it legal to structure data as foobar, 02:23:59 it seems to me that it should be. 02:24:37 i 02:24:39 don't understand 02:24:51 lol 02:24:58 hmm 02:26:22 if i wanted to add structure to my post i might say, itidus21lol 02:28:26 i would feel wronged if i wasn't allowed to do that legally 02:33:58 my abstract conception of markup tags is probably not a topic anyone tends to discuss in real life 02:40:55 {blah} ::= text | <{identifier}{attribute-list}>{blah} | <{identifier}{attribute-list}/> 02:41:00 {attribute-list} ::= | {attribute-list} {identifier}="text" 02:41:20 ugly.. i fucked that up 02:41:36 i won't put everyone through the agony of continuing 02:51:02 itidus21: what do you mean "legal" 02:51:28 i mean that i can't be sued over it due to someones intellectual property 02:53:06 oh, "legal" as in legal 02:53:18 well any patent on that would be unenforceable and almost assuredly have plenty of prior art 02:53:21 this is why it's fun to chat with me 02:53:23 so why are you worrying about it 02:53:43 basically due to the microsoft xml thing 02:54:51 but i am being absurd 02:54:57 yeah 02:56:12 since after all xml is more than 2 lines of bnf 02:56:22 `addquote oh, "legal" as in legal 02:56:32 848) oh, "legal" as in legal 02:57:08 -!- stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:57:23 `url 02:57:26 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 02:59:00 1delquote 844 02:59:03 1delquote 844 02:59:06 `delquote 844 02:59:10 ​*poof* becal pckecibedecimacibedey d pakely pckensensly d dely decimecked pacimakecal dey 02:59:21 :o 03:00:54 -!- stanley has joined. 03:00:57 `run echo 'quote elliott' > bin/quelliott; chmod +x bin/quelliott 03:01:00 No output. 03:01:01 `quelliott 03:01:04 171) elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 174) elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 183) elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. Two! \ 191) Vorpal loves the sodomy. 03:02:20 `rm bin/quelliott 03:02:22 No output. 03:02:22 `welcome stanley 03:02:25 stanley: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 03:02:29 Too much bottage. 03:02:44 Henceforth, bottage is verboten. 03:03:55 `run quote | tr ' ' '\n' | shuf | tr '\n' ' ' 03:03:59 Received [CTCP] ERRMSG. 224) reply from unknown CTCP: clog: CTCP-ERRMSG 03:04:37 okay then 03:04:46 ion: Do you know what "verboten" means? 03:04:46 hi 03:04:49 @wn verboten 03:04:50 *** "verboten" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 03:04:50 verboten 03:04:50 adj 1: excluded from use or mention; "forbidden fruit"; "in our 03:04:50 house dancing and playing cards were out"; "a taboo 03:04:50 subject" [syn: {forbidden}, {out(p)}, {prohibited}, 03:04:52 {proscribed}, {taboo}, {tabu}, {verboten}] 03:04:54 oops 03:05:57 I’m a rebel 03:06:33 ::= '<'; ::= '>' 03:06:50 ::= |'a'|'b'|'c'|'d'|'e'|'f'|'g'|'h'|'i'|'j'|'k'|'l'|'m'|'n'|'o'|'p'|'q'|'r'|'s'|'t'|'u'|'v'|'w'|'x'|'y'|'z' 03:07:00 ::= | ="" | 03:07:07 ::= | / | LT/ 03:07:13 ion: I‘m even more of a rebel. 03:07:15 Did you see that? 03:07:23 yes 03:07:33 But you only broke your own rule. 03:08:02 Which rule? 03:08:11 i call it... whatthe 03:08:17 I‘m talking about the apostrophe rule. 03:08:18 That bottage is verboten. 03:08:41 Didn’t see that one. 03:08:53 Didn‘t see it? 03:11:55 I didn„t indeed. 03:12:26 What,re you talking about 03:13:59 `delquote 637 03:14:01 I don't like non-quotes 03:14:01 ​*poof* clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals 03:14:43 Hey, some of my family is non-quotes. 03:17:21 coppro: how is that a non-quote 03:17:37 it's a bad quote, admittedly 03:18:47 elliott: I never said that afiact 03:19:51 elliott: also most of our quotes are bad 03:20:04 see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13197 if you care though 03:20:23 `pastlog clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals 03:20:30 2011-10-24.txt:07:47:03: 691) clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals 03:20:34 `pastelogs clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals 03:20:41 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27520 03:21:08 coppro: I think you said that to me in /msg. 03:21:45 elliott: hmm... possibly 03:45:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:54:19 If a tensor category follow this (whenever the types match) what is it called: f . g = f *** g 04:47:47 -!- edwardk has joined. 05:30:30 What is "ABC starting with C"? 05:35:23 C 05:40:36 (C) monqy 05:47:29 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:36:59 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 06:37:08 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:37:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:41:13 -!- edwardk has joined. 06:41:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:42:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:53:18 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:56:03 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:56:04 hello 06:56:38 so it's the time of year when i can get another nifty electronic device or devices 06:56:39 what do I get? 06:57:12 I don't know. 07:08:47 asiekierka: Several terabytes. 07:34:32 I think I managed to make the same Haskell solution to anarchy golf "Cross Product of two Strings" at least the length and statistic matches! 07:34:53 But maybe not; in ten days I can check for sure 07:59:41 * itidus21 . o O ( MOV AX, (ADD (SUB AX, BX), (INC CX)) ) 08:03:00 What? 08:04:33 it's how assembly language might look if it had nested expressions 08:06:04 ex officio! 08:07:04 Even your assembly language doesn't make any sense. 08:07:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 08:10:17 roughly means: ax=(ax-bx)+(++cx); 08:10:28 in my mind 08:12:51 Yes you just need to know order of evaluation do like SUB AX BX INC CX ADD AX CX 08:13:28 im not certain it can work though 08:13:48 asm has lots of strange constraints 08:14:57 im just thinking too loudly 08:21:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:41:23 Wow, webpagesthatsuck.com describes a site as "nswf". Twice. 09:41:34 Is that... not safe wor fork? 09:56:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:52:35 -!- itidus20 has joined. 10:56:07 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:20:13 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:24:47 hi 11:51:29 -!- augur has joined. 12:39:16 wtf... I think the images my cheap scanner produces are slightly skewed... I scanned two copies of the same image, but with one rotated 90°, and there is no rotation that matches up the whole image... 12:39:20 looks like skew 12:39:21 how weird 12:53:44 strings is officially my favorite program ever. 13:20:39 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:20:54 -!- augur has joined. 13:27:19 -!- azaq23 has joined. 13:27:34 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 13:44:44 Phantom__Hoover: "not so work friendly" 13:48:16 Fuck Yeah rsync 13:50:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:09:46 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:33:55 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 14:53:26 I apparently made a Worlds wiki 15:04:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:06:55 Ooh where 15:07:01 does it record all the surreal horrors 15:25:40 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:25:43 Hello! 15:34:14 Phantom__Hoover, it doesn't record much of anything\ 15:34:37 Except for a world that, as far as I can tell, is not part of Worlds 15:34:46 I think the person who added it was in the wrong wiki 15:35:06 http://worlds.wikia.com/wiki/Special:AllPages 15:35:41 Page in question: http://worlds.wikia.com/wiki/Wasteland 16:40:38 On the one hand, I'm curious about Tcl, on the other, I think some people consider it terrible 16:41:04 For any given thing, some people will consider it terrible. 16:43:55 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/99681/why-wont-tcl-die 16:44:08 " If you never really liked shell-script (or make, for that matter), you'll probably dislike Tcl" 16:44:19 On the other hand, I like what I'm reading in some of the other answers 16:45:12 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:46:15 Meanwhile in Russia http://youtu.be/elxuGbkvETQ 16:46:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:50:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:52:10 The question of why that was being filmed is, I feel, and important and unaddressed one. 16:53:25 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:54:05 @tell phantom__hoover Plenty of people have dash cams. 16:54:05 Consider it noted. 16:58:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:03:19 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:05:24 Installing ActiveTcl 17:06:01 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 17:16:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:23:19 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:23:33 Dammit I hate having to babysit yaourt whenever I want to install or upgrade anything from AUR. 17:23:55 No, I don't want to edit pkgbuild. Yes, I want to continue building. Yes, I want to proceed with installation. 17:23:55 Hello 17:24:01 hello Taneb 17:24:15 My fortress just got a 30-dwarf migrant wave 17:24:20 join me on an adventure of simultaneously pirating mathematica and morrowind 17:24:41 Can I be weird and pirate Daggerfall and Alpha? 17:24:59 *Arena 17:25:19 And Bethesda provide both for free download, so why bother pirating? 17:25:26 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:25:56 Also if you pirate them you miss out on Michael Kirkbride lore -_- 17:28:30 -!- elliott has joined. 17:35:03 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:35:17 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:38:22 Also apparently Arena is hard as balls, to the extent that you have like a 5% chance of getting out of the first dungeon. 17:38:57 Do you have any suggestions to improve optimization or other features of "dvi-processing" Haskell program? 17:40:04 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:40:54 One thing is completely fails to do is to use the w,x,y,z registers in the output. (It will correctly process them in an input, though.) 17:41:30 I love it when websites ask me to give them their country. 17:42:39 Phantom_Hoover, /their/ country!? 17:42:44 Not your country? 17:42:56 OK my country THANK YOU TANEB 17:46:03 Not you're country? 17:48:57 Do you know rules for chess boxing? I have read that if a player takes too long to make a move in chess he is given a warning and must make a move in ten seconds or be disqualified. I don't like that; a player can still lose on a chess clock. Perhaps set a 100 second time limit per move which is reset at the beginning of each round, and if you don't move, your opponent can make a move for you. 17:49:17 That is, in addition to the chess clock. 17:49:25 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:49:33 (If you run out of time on the chess clock you would still lose instantly.) 17:51:46 In addition, I would reduce the breaks to 45 seconds. If you are saved by the bell, but remain knocked out during the break and then when it is time to make a chess move you are still knocked out, your chess clock continues anyways and if you have little time left even though you can make checkmate in one move, you lose anyways even though you are saved by the bell. 17:58:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:09:47 Do you like this document? http://sprunge.us/VcYO 18:12:07 My impression of Tcl so far is that it's probably a very suitable language for a "malicious code that looks like innocent code" contest 18:12:48 Sgeo: Try! 18:21:48 Richard Stallman hates Tcl? 18:21:56 You're surprised? 18:26:14 zzo38: taking up chess boxing? 18:27:27 edwardk: No, but one day I read about it and I thought about the rules. 18:34:21 Phantom_Hoover, yes, because as far as I know Tcl isn't proprietary 18:34:31 http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html 18:34:50 Why you should not use Tcl -- Richard Stallman 18:37:28 -!- calamari has joined. 18:55:57 Just because it isn't proprietary does not necessarily mean it isn't a good quality. 18:56:08 Just because it isn't proprietary does not necessarily mean it is a good quality. 18:58:41 I hate hate hate hate hate using Wine. 18:58:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:59:19 Nothing *ever* just works; you always need to iron out some bug or unmet dependency or something. 19:01:40 Example: I need mfc100u.dll. This is apparently in winetricks' vcrun2010. Running this generates a warning about mfc100u.dll not being found (even though it should've installed it) and then crashes on subsequent runs. 19:03:20 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 19:04:40 "F'rinstance, Tcl's support for lambda expressions is weak to nonexistant; OTOH, command prefixes as higher-order functions work rather well." 19:05:17 Phantom_Hoover: yeah i feel that way about life in general. 19:05:38 me too 19:05:44 oerjan are you being snarky with me 19:06:11 Phantom_Hoover: no, just depressed. i fear that i'm becoming more and more like itidus21 19:06:22 I 19:06:28 I'm so, so sorry 19:06:35 how rapidly is this happening? 19:07:37 it seems to be accelerating, i expect an asymptote within the next year or so. 19:08:39 It could just be a cubic. 19:08:46 MAYBE 19:08:47 basically, my family is all but broken. there is no point to be happy in the morning in this house 19:10:22 i no longer speak to my dad, i just cannot bear the feel of guilt at the end of every conversation. 19:11:06 we're always here for you oerjan 19:11:12 something which would seem trivial, like feeling comfortable to occupy an empty loungeroom... my brother will come along and say like "let's watch this other thing" 19:11:30 olsner: yeah until my computer breaks 19:12:28 we'll still be here if your computer breaks, you just can't reach us 19:12:34 OKAY 19:12:37 XD 19:12:46 i shouldn't focus on the negatives... but my brother will start getting angry and stomping around if he can't find aluminum foil in kitchen.. saying to my mum "WHERE DID YOU PUT IT?" 19:12:51 something like that 19:13:23 or wondering where the vegetable stock is "DID YOU THROW IT OUT? _YES_ OR _NO_ " 19:13:58 yeah trying not to focus on the negatives works for about 20 minutes, until the negatives crashland on your focus again. 19:14:00 but whenever my mum thanks him for a meal he is like "hmph" 19:14:12 it _used_ to work for longer. 19:14:41 oerjan: aren't you old enough to e.g. get a job where you don't need to interact with your family anmore? 19:14:58 olsner: um i'm not living with my family. 19:14:59 that'd solve everything 19:15:03 its not just words though, the broken walls, doors, and window are a testatment to his tempers 19:15:25 i don't have a job either, nor do i feel capable of maintaining one. 19:15:51 hmm, ok, I think I misunderstood the nature of your problem 19:16:23 but literally there is no gain for me to focus on negatives.. it primes my mind to think negatively 19:16:32 olsner: i'm not saying i'm exactly like itidus21, the _details_ are probably completely different, i just feel like every day i feel more and more in tune with his general position despite intellectually vehemently disagreeing with it. 19:17:11 but basically i think we share a complete inability to take initiative. 19:17:31 no matter how much we are prodded. 19:17:45 well, prodding usually only demotivates 19:18:03 i snapped.. accidently attacked him with a bowl full of hot food.. when he was holding me down i got my mom to call cops... and he declared i wasnt his brother for 10 days 19:18:03 and the world simply cannot _accept_ people who cannot take initiative. 19:18:08 and cut off my internet 19:18:10 lol 19:18:19 its all fun.. :-S 19:19:42 oerjan: that sounds a bit pessimistic, not everyone is or can be the initiator all the time, nor is everyone expected to be 19:19:58 now convincing myself he is really not intentionally setting out to do these things 19:20:47 olsner, iti's problem at least is that he can *never* initiate anything. 19:20:59 be wary with what you focus on... it will ultimately overlwhem you 19:21:48 Phantom_Hoover: well, is that really the case though? 19:23:02 ok ok im not the topic 19:23:13 i guess im part of it though 19:24:08 basically, i think the pain is in trying to avoid feedback loops developing 19:25:18 like if someone does something harmful to you, you want it to be absolute, not a relative increase in harmfulness each time 19:27:11 but being harmful does in practice tend to be a feedback loop that you can't stop. you have to literally run out. like an army withdrawing from a war 19:28:56 i don't want to think about it like this :D 19:29:13 im gonna watch some nyan cat 19:29:58 elliott left again? 19:29:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZZ7oFKsKzY 19:30:07 oh well 19:30:26 have faith in nyan cat 19:43:50 oerjan: i'm doing ok. you can do ok too. it's not realistic to make comparisons of yourself with me. :D i was being pushed around since i began school. this i could live with 19:44:32 it's only when i started to not trust my own family that i felt lost. but i am learning they deserve more trust than i give them 19:45:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: SUUUUURE). 19:48:51 -!- itidus21 has left ("does text go here! good time for me to take a break"). 19:56:10 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:00:39 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 20:02:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:08:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:10:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:20:30 "Upvar interacts with traces in a straightforward but possibly unexpected manner." 20:20:41 I think that's a good description of Tcl in general. 20:20:49 "Straightforward but possibly unexpected" 20:37:50 -!- alegend45 has joined. 20:38:02 -!- alegend45 has left. 21:09:42 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:13:40 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:18:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:32:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:36 huh. zombie shell processes on my android phone. Lots of them. Their parent is called "kiesexe", since "Kies" is Samsung's PC software suite (that adds absolutely nothing useful to me) I guess it is something related to that. 21:43:45 -!- unconf`d-bwalee has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 21:53:42 * oerjan notes that "notify" becomes "naughtify" if you pronounce it with a mad science accent 22:12:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:31:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:33:56 i think is shall have to use a "what is this i don't even" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&hl=no&v=iAJBuGwQEHg 22:46:56 http://www.math.psu.edu/rvaughan/568Quotations.pdf :D 22:47:20 * oerjan is pasting links from r/math, btw 22:50:42 oh my god it's scored to the ecstasy of gold 22:50:43 why 22:53:22 I like this song I think 22:53:45 Of course you do, it's Ennio Morricone. 22:53:57 i was about to say that. 22:55:09 (Not completely sure how that theorem qualifies for a PhD, assume there's more to it.) 22:55:11 That shall be how I make my thesis. 22:55:13 Screw writing. 22:55:15 INTERPRETIVE DANCE 22:55:17 (If it's that easy to get one I'm set for life.) 22:56:50 It slightly bothers me that the video ends with "Q.E.D.". I'm about 85% sure that interpretive dance is not a widely accepted proof technique. 22:56:58 So, Facebook wrongly blocked a URL 22:57:01 Gregor: YET 22:57:01 I can't report the URL as being wrongly blocked because when I try to submit the form, Facebook blocks it due to the URL 22:57:23 smooth 22:57:45 Gregor, like I said I'm not even sure whether anything of interest was proved. 22:58:12 Certainly nothing was proved by the video, but we don't even know the thesis statement, let alone the actual theorem :) 22:58:20 * oerjan didn't actually pay attention to the math much :P 22:59:19 I'm guessing she extended the hell out of it for the thesis because... well, anything that can be proven in a few minutes of interpretative dance is not enough to get 'Dr' stuck onto your name. 22:59:51 Yeah, again, nothing was actually proved by the dance, it's a demonstration X_X 23:00:26 oh hm the author comments on the reddit thread http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/vx3wt/cutting_sequences_on_the_double_pentagon/ 23:01:17 One day I will care about mathematical concepts that don't have Wikipedia articles. 23:01:21 Today is not that day. 23:03:40 "For those interested, the paper the video is based on can be found here. The introduction to the paper is very accessible, and answers most of the questions people are asking." 23:03:51 here=http://math.brown.edu/~diana/math/VeechPolygons.pdf 23:04:09 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:05:43 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 23:08:44 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:09:35 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:13:01 -!- edwardk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:13:55 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:16:22 -!- edwardk has quit (Client Quit). 23:17:42 -!- edwardk has joined. 23:32:03 -!- stanley has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:34:44 -!- stanley has joined. 2012-07-04: 00:11:47 -!- elliott has joined. 00:51:49 elliott, HI! 00:52:03 hellioptter 00:58:18 Vorpal: what 00:58:18 hi 00:58:18 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 00:58:20 ugh 00:58:33 monqy: what 01:04:42 Wait, Livonia is a real place??? 01:04:52 I swear Neil Gaiman knows everything. 01:15:21 -!- newsham has joined. 01:15:57 esolang wiki has a page for a langauge called "lambda" but broken link :( 01:16:32 wanted to mention i also wrote a small language I called "lambda" (i know.. join the club).. http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/ 01:17:13 hewsham 01:17:17 hi 01:18:01 I think when there are multiple languages people make pages with the name of the author in parentheses. 01:18:13 E.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol) 01:18:37 (This suggests that you should make a second, unrelated language called "lambda", to cause some real confusion.) 01:18:54 or change my name to calculus 01:20:29 If you do that, people might think you're not discreet. 01:20:57 Anyway, ask elliott about the Rules of the Wiki. 01:21:03 elliott: "rules plz" 01:24:27 The existing lambda page is very uninformative. 01:27:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 01:43:50 newsham! 01:44:27 holy shit it's quarter to four 01:44:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:50:59 elliott: Where's news-ham? 01:52:16 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:52:17 in hawaii 01:54:11 goog maps 96706 01:54:12 Ha, why? 01:54:33 All the cool zip codes start with 9, copumpkin. 01:54:48 I dunno, 0 seems better to me 01:55:05 right coasters 01:55:21 More like wrong coasters, am I right? 01:55:42 Hawaiian names look a bit like Finnish names. 01:55:48 Must be all the doubled vowels. 01:57:10 alphabet: aeiou hklmnpw` (thats not punctuation, thats a gloteral(sp?) stop) 01:58:37 Glottal? 01:58:50 probably 01:59:07 English has glottal stops too, they're just not written. 01:59:12 sorry, english is nto my first language 01:59:14 i speak american 01:59:23 ie. i'm dumb 01:59:26 And I guess they're only at the beginnings of words, and often slurred. 01:59:43 if we slur our words enough maybe we can be like the french 01:59:54 drunken latin 02:13:11 Hm what? 02:13:14 newsham: Hi. What? 02:13:26 Yes, we do disambiguation pages. 02:13:28 hi. 02:13:41 Something like Lambda (newsham) or Lambda (yourrealnamehere) or whatever and moving the existing Lambda to a similar title would be ideal. 02:13:49 Then create a page like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue. 02:14:12 Our current [[Lambda]] page is bad. 02:14:31 Seems like the Wayback Machine has the page, at least. 02:14:35 authors usually add their language to yoru wiki? 02:15:00 Yes. You think more than one person cares about the 5000th brainfuck cipher enough to write a page about it? :) 02:15:17 (Not saying anything about your language! Just that the wiki would hardly thrive if we had no vanity.) 02:15:36 Probably upwards of 80% of new pages are authors creating pages for their own languages. 02:15:51 Of course, if you want someone else to write a page that's fine too. Might not happen, though. 02:16:34 i'm shocked that the world hasnt taken to writing new phone apps using my interpeter 02:19:42 -!- itidus21 has joined. 02:21:15 it is pure injustice 02:21:16 elliott: Can you guess what newsham's real name is? 02:21:20 is it News Ham 02:21:23 New Sham 02:21:27 Ne Wsham 02:21:30 Newsh Am 02:21:46 I do not want green eggs and ham. I do not want them, Newsh I am! 02:23:20 will you eat them with a fox? will you eat them in a box? 02:23:37 IOUEgg# 02:32:16 wtf is firefox doing >.< ... i won't abandon it, but apparently it's unaware that it can chill out.. 02:32:31 ?bf >.< 02:32:31 Done. 02:33:02 1 page open, more or less standard html... and its using about 15% cpu.. 02:33:03 has anyone written meaningful prose that executes as an interesting bf program? 02:33:54 newsham: They play a BF competition game in here. 02:34:16 !bfjoust HELP I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING++++++[>.<>+>]+ 02:34:26 ​Score for shachaf_HELP: 6.7 02:34:39 elliott can tell you the rules. 02:34:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies 02:36:29 bf core wars? 02:36:53 !bfjoust tidusthisisntagame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+<[+<]-[<-+[-]>+[-+]>-][+->+[-<-+>-[+<-]+>]] 02:36:56 ​Score for itidus21_tidusthisisntagame: 2.1 02:37:33 newsham: not quite core wars 02:37:41 you have no access to the other program's source in any way, for instance 02:38:51 Fuck it, we'll use python 2. Theres no time for python 3. Fuck it. 02:39:41 python 3 is the ipv6 of languages 02:39:47 * itidus21 looks around sheepishly. 02:40:00 this isn't actually the channel i intended to say that. 02:40:51 iti: why not? py3 is an esoteric lang, no? 02:41:06 lol 02:41:35 im not really using it to make code, rather to run other peoples code 02:42:36 hmm. do esoteric language extensions count? sigfpe wrote a py preprocessor which adds monad comprehensions to python 02:43:35 maybe thats too useful to be esolang 02:45:16 i think i'm officially barred from determining what's officially esoteric 02:48:55 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 02:57:38 Esolangness isn't just a bit. 02:57:43 There's a continuous scale. 02:57:55 It's measured in esolangstroms. 03:04:51 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:14:20 -!- augur has joined. 05:35:59 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 05:37:47 Hi 05:39:46 hi 05:39:48 `welcome Dovregubben 05:39:59 Dovregubben: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 05:42:31 oh, I don't know any esoteric programming languages 05:42:45 I found this channel on a site about Conway's Game of Life 05:43:04 apparently there's used to be a #gameoflife channel, but there isn't one now 05:43:27 I think PH ran that one. 05:43:29 He's in here a lot. 05:43:39 Game of Life is pretty much on-topic here. 05:43:54 * Dovregubben is afraid the most esoteric programming language he knows is TI-99/4A BASIC 05:44:07 also on-topic :P 05:44:22 this guy is already more qualified than me 05:44:49 wait.... logo would be considered a language, right? 05:44:59 haven't seen that in years.... 05:45:02 logo is a programming language yes 05:46:50 anyone here know anything about Life? 05:47:34 Dovregubben: make yourself comfortable.. i think you're in the right place 06:00:54 i don't. but everyone else does 06:07:20 hi 06:07:34 hi 06:09:38 what qualifies something as a "methuselah?" 06:10:44 beyond the obvious, I mean 06:10:57 like... does it have to be assymetrical? 06:12:09 does it have to be composed only of one instance of a pattern? 06:13:23 well it is a specific small configuration that takes many turns to stabilise 06:13:29 "small" is of course subjective, as is "many" 06:13:37 yeah.... 06:13:42 "More specifically, Martin Gardner defines them as patterns of fewer than ten live cells which take longer than 50 generations to stabilize" 06:13:50 hmm... 06:14:08 I've been goofing around with a pattern of 12 cells that takes 1145 generations to stabilize 06:14:20 http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Fred what a good pattern 06:14:25 I can't be the first person to discover it 06:14:29 but I can't find it anywhere 06:14:41 http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4610#p4610 nice 06:14:54 Dovregubben: take a look at http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_long-lived_methuselahs or such, perhaps? 06:15:03 looked there 06:15:06 not there 06:15:18 I'm thinking maybe because it's symmetrical it's not considered a methuselah? 06:15:20 The pattern is named after Dr. Fred Edison from the "Maniac Mansion" computer game, whose wife was also called "Edna". <-- heh 06:15:26 I don't see why symmetrically would matter 06:15:29 *symmetricality 06:34:43 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what elliott thinks of Tcl 06:36:38 it's a language 06:36:54 something about strings 06:39:33 yes, strings are bad data structures 06:41:42 Apparently, later implementations use good data structures behind the scenes 06:44:07 yes because what what we need are low-level languages with high-level implementations 06:44:12 my objection was clearly one of performance 06:47:48 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:01:34 Happy Birthday America! 07:02:32 It's funny we call this independence day 07:03:37 we may have declared independence on July 4, 1776, but the rest of the world didn't recognize us as independent until years later (if at all) 08:00:32 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 08:03:42 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:07:17 Tcl seems like it might be a good language for a codenomic 08:07:52 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 08:07:52 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split). 08:10:45 -!- newsham has joined. 08:10:46 -!- coppro has joined. 08:10:58 `pastelog tcl 08:11:17 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5005 08:13:01 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 08:13:01 -!- newsham has quit (*.net *.split). 08:15:02 -!- newsham has joined. 08:15:02 -!- coppro has joined. 09:02:14 -!- atehwa has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 09:02:27 -!- atehwa has joined. 09:03:39 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:20:14 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:30:29 -!- MoALTz has joined. 09:30:53 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 09:32:30 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:44:13 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:32:09 -!- yorick_ has joined. 10:36:12 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:33:30 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 11:49:31 -!- boily has joined. 12:15:30 Meanwhile in Finland http://youtu.be/8H7Qjp9itF8 12:28:02 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:28:11 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 12:37:27 -!- edwardk has joined. 12:41:58 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:45:01 -!- john_metcalf has left. 12:45:01 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf). 12:46:55 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick. 13:26:25 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 13:57:10 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:58:51 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 14:07:56 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 14:14:09 -!- john_metcalf has left. 14:49:41 -!- Sarajevo has joined. 14:59:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:00:09 Hello! 15:07:16 Taneb: hi! 15:47:10 -!- Sarajevo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:59:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:01:55 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 16:07:02 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:07:53 -!- itidus20 has joined. 16:08:36 Hello again! 16:11:07 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:13:42 brb 16:16:48 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Mystery8anshee. 16:16:56 -!- Mystery8anshee has changed nick to copumpkin. 16:29:45 Back 16:39:37 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:39:49 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 16:39:54 -!- elliott has joined. 16:40:25 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:47:42 @messages? 16:47:42 Sorry, no messages today. 16:52:56 Hello, elliott 16:53:14 Haneb, 16:53:16 *. 17:29:08 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:42:14 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /list) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:42:36 No wait, /list lists channels? 17:43:43 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:48:44 -!- boily has joined. 18:27:24 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:30:52 Phantom__Hoover, danger rooming advice? 18:32:13 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:38:05 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:40:49 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 18:42:24 Taneb, um, what're you having trouble with. 18:42:24 Phantom__Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:42:41 Remembering how big they are and whether shields come before armour 18:43:07 5x1 with a door at the end, you give them armour, then weapons, then shield. 18:43:14 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 18:43:19 Okay 18:45:35 -!- MoALTz has joined. 18:47:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:48:42 -!- boily has joined. 18:49:18 Oh also if you're DRing marksdorfs (for survivability) leave out the weapon altogether; they'll train in hammers rather than crossbows. 18:49:35 ion said 1d 1h 54m 29s ago: Plenty of people have dash cams. 18:49:51 You mean they have cameras on their dashboard recording their daily drive? 18:49:54 ...why? 18:51:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 18:51:31 @quote 18:51:31 Makoryu says: Why should people have to change how they think when learning a language with a reputation for changing how you think?! 18:51:53 a conundrum indeed 18:51:59 -!- nortti has joined. 18:53:10 Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally. 18:53:25 hi again 18:53:29 Hello 18:53:39 aloha 18:53:59 Are there any Icelanders in here 18:55:08 Eyjafjallajökull 18:55:20 Phantom__Hoover, I'm watching my untrained army getting utterly trounced by a wombat 18:58:27 phantom__hoover: For instance, having more proof than just your word against the other’s in case of a dispute after a crash that wasn’t your fault. 19:00:30 * oerjan smells a norwegian troll here 19:01:00 ion isn't trolling, I believe that kind of thing is common in several countries. 19:01:07 except why would a norwegian troll use comcast 19:01:15 elliott: no, i mean from looking at the logs 19:01:19 oh 19:01:19 link 19:01:50 http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-07-04.txt HTH 19:01:57 who the fuck uses the .txt logs 19:02:02 Me? 19:02:10 why 19:02:14 i do, the text was too big on the others 19:02:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:02:19 Habit 19:02:21 the font sizes are identical 19:02:36 Paranoia 19:02:39 I use txt logs 19:03:12 -!- oonbotti has joined. 19:03:32 elliott: no they're not 19:03:49 of course the .txt probably doesn't set any 19:04:14 they ar ethe same for me 19:04:15 *are the 19:04:44 Fear 19:05:31 Little shop of horrors is on 19:05:38 So bye 19:05:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:07:23 when i set the formatted page to use small font size, it becomes about the same character size as the .txt, but still with a lot bigger spacing 19:07:24 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:07:43 oerjan: i don't see any troll in the logs 19:07:45 elliott: any way i mean the troll starting with d and ending with ovregubben 19:07:49 what 19:07:53 why do you think they are a troll 19:08:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:08:41 elliott: try googling it 19:09:08 oh. 19:25:30 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf). 19:30:32 Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally. 19:30:36 Victory dancing? 19:31:38 -!- Deewiant has joined. 19:34:57 the train-skill-by-using system 19:37:02 What does that have to do with victory? Or indeed dancing? 19:37:48 "victory dancing" is the art of repeatedly "dancing" a trivial victory to train a skill 19:37:58 for instance killing plants repeatedly to train a fighting skill 19:41:52 Anyway DRs are an example of the system being downright terribly-balanced, so that's hardly the whole of it. 19:55:57 -!- boily has joined. 19:57:59 Internet Scam Alert: Most "Kickstarter" Projects Just Useless Crap http://youtu.be/qqZ65pUQxyQ 20:14:52 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: bbl). 20:17:06 Oh, they found the Higgs. 20:17:45 no, they found a particle that might be like higgs 20:18:00 ... with high enough probability to publicly say that they might have found it 20:18:12 YOU AND YOUR 'SCIENCE' 20:19:03 when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything 20:19:30 `addquote when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything 20:19:38 847) when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything 20:19:41 LET THAT BE A LESSON TO ALL 20:20:01 let that be printed in comic sans as a lesson to all 20:20:11 but then most won't learn it! 20:48:08 olsner, FWIW the particle is very like the Higgs, apparently. 20:49:16 the Wiggs particle 20:52:47 Rich Teas are the worst thing ever. 20:52:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]). 20:53:09 I mean a biscuit with 'tea' IN THE NAME that dissolves as soon as it even gets NEAR tea. 20:53:26 almost, but not entirely unlike tea. and the higgs boson. 20:54:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:55:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:57:29 super biscuit? 20:58:17 Rich Teas are the worst thing ever. 20:58:19 Fuck this channel. 20:58:20 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 20:58:48 CAN'T DEAL WITH THE HARD TRUTHS EH 20:59:57 he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he 21:01:07 Can we please keep this in the strictly humorous? 21:07:11 * oerjan strictly throws Phantom__Hoover into the hummus 21:08:57 A flea and a fly in a flue, were trapped and knew not what to do, 21:09:03 'Let us flee', said the fly, 'Let us fly', said the flea, so they flew through a flaw in the flue. 21:10:22 Fleas can't fly. 21:13:46 tragic facts 21:13:52 -!- elliott has joined. 21:13:52 20:59:57: he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he 21:13:59 It is not boring, Phantom__Hoover is just wrong and abominable scum. 21:14:00 That is all. 21:14:00 Die. 21:14:05 -!- elliott has left ("RICH TEA LYF"). 21:14:41 ah, it was something immensely important and british. sorry for the misunderstanding. 21:14:42 Might I ask you your opinions of digestives whilst you logread? 21:15:35 I love digestives, if you mean the crackers 21:15:48 he doesn't mean laxatives :-D 21:15:49 I probably mean the crackers. 21:15:52 but I pronounce it in Swedish, for hysterical raisins 21:16:16 vad digestiva dom är(o) 21:17:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:17:28 k ex :D 21:17:42 k ex? 21:17:59 oerjan, must you *insist* on making the channel's topic a jab against one of its members? 21:18:03 * olsner proudly joins the channel ruining crew 21:18:25 Phantom__Hoover: no, i'm diluting by expansion 21:18:37 Who set the topic to start with? 21:19:47 i'll have to check 21:20:05 i like biscuits with cream filling 21:20:05 `pastelogs ruining this channel 21:20:38 No output. 21:20:41 `pastelogs ruining this channel 21:20:55 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4438 21:21:28 * oerjan blames coppro 21:21:34 im not satisfied 21:21:47 but .. the log stands to reason 21:22:21 i'm sure it's more complicated story than tat 21:23:13 ah ok.. i see now 21:23:21 yeah coppro started it 21:24:58 it seemed reasonable in context 21:27:06 i just thought there was more to it 21:29:57 oerjan: 20 years from now you will miss the year 2012 21:31:26 the things we complain about now, will seem so great compared to what the future has in store 21:32:26 ...i think you are overdoing negativity now. 21:32:59 DON'T BLOODY MAKE UP MORE OF IT 21:33:28 req. iti be kicked for overbearing, pretentious cynicis, 21:33:31 *cynicism 21:33:38 tempting, tempting :P 21:34:12 Current projections show a continued increase in population (but a steady decline in the population growth rate), with the global population expected to reach between 7.5 and 10.5 billion by 2050 -- 7.5billion in 2050.. does this data tell me ANYTHING? 21:34:30 It tells you exactly what it fucking says. 21:35:21 it basically says that population is likely to not decrease, and not likely to increase more than 3 billion 21:35:36 Maybe if you'd actually try to think for once rather than exposit at length your inability to comprehend anything that isn't handed to you on a platter you could conclude something. 21:35:45 See, it's not that hard! 21:36:03 Keep it up and you might move beyond an effective mental age of 10. 21:36:06 i bet they actually spent money to reach that data 21:36:27 Of course they fucking spent money it's immensely valuable information would you please shut up for once in your life. 21:40:19 yay there is no a vlc version for android 21:40:49 still in beta 21:40:59 There's no a VLC version for Android?? 21:41:05 now* 21:41:06 typo 21:41:24 This is futile, that basically only makes sense to people who know something of Scottish slang. 21:41:33 Phantom__Hoover, XD 21:42:33 Phantom__Hoover, or who read any Discworld book with the Nac Mac Feegle in it. 21:42:43 I am still waiting my vlc for mac os 9 21:42:44 Maybe 21:42:51 *for my 21:42:54 nortti, are you seriously using OS9. 21:43:05 not OS9, mac os 9 21:43:20 I want a vlc version for System 7 21:43:24 and yes. but my ppc mac broke 21:43:44 vlc for system 6 and macminix 1.5 21:44:01 oh and the beta is currently only for ARMv7 CPUs with Neon (works for me!), though more variants are apparently coming soon 21:44:30 by the way does vlc work with minix 2? 21:44:46 ha ha 21:44:52 ? 21:45:29 Phantom__Hoover, I have an OS 9 laptop somewhere, not really using it unless I get nostalgic 21:45:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 21:45:45 for the old Spiderweb Software and Ambrosia games. 21:45:51 I thought he meant he had it on his dumpster machine. 21:45:56 Vorpal: have you heard of Classilla 21:45:58 oh right 21:46:11 Phantom__Hoover: my dumpster machine has x86 cpu 21:46:24 nortti, hey you could emulate OS 9 21:46:27 this laptop can do it 21:46:32 though it is very buggy 21:46:36 google sheepshaver 21:46:51 but not very fast and it would require me using X 21:47:33 it is buggy, doesn't work for all programs, requires mmap_min_addr=0 to run, and is rather messy to compile. Oh and getting hold of the source of it was hard too 21:47:38 since the project is basically dead 21:47:52 it works for emulating Avernum 1 and Avernum 2 though (sadly not Avernum 3 and later) 21:48:30 Mac OS 9 with irc client with name I cannot remember right now, Classilla, iCab 3.0.5 and Python 2.3 is actually pretty decent 21:48:43 emulating System 7 on 68k hardware is much more stable 21:48:50 basiliskII can do that 21:49:27 I can believe. I have emulated system 6 on mac classic before and it was pretty stable 21:49:43 anyway a core 2 Duo at 2.26 G is more than enough to emulate classic mac os. (System 7 boots in less than a second, OS 9 takes a few seconds, but most seem to be spent waiting for some network IO thingy or such) 21:50:06 yeah. I have 700MHz pentium III.... 21:50:22 nortti, no I meant emulating system 7 on 68k hardware, with the emulator running on x86 21:50:28 -!- edwardk has joined. 21:50:38 I haven't emulated system 7 on 68k, that would be silly 21:51:05 erm. I meant running sys6 on emulated mac classic on ppc mac 21:51:16 nortti, anyway BasiliskII (which is also a PITA to compile) might work on your CPU 21:51:39 no idea if sheepshaver will work 21:51:41 worth a try 21:52:14 Vorpal: did you know that you can actually use mini vmac on m68k macs and with it emulate sys7 m68k machine on sys7 m68k machine= 21:52:18 but setting it up is a an absolute PITA (and of course requires finding an OS 9 install cd image somewhere, wasn't terribly hard, there was a site that specialised in classic mac os abandonware) 21:52:21 (forgot the name of it) 21:52:42 macintosh garden? 21:52:46 ah yes 21:52:47 thats it 21:52:52 nortti, hm? I thought mini vmac only did up to system 6? 21:52:54 oh well 21:53:02 anyway the software I'm interested in is PPC 21:53:06 so sheepshaver it is for me 21:53:20 I have ran sys 7.0 under mini vMac 21:53:35 don't know about anything newer 21:53:40 I only wish I could get Escape Velocity or Escape Velocity Override working under emulation 21:53:44 those games were awesome 21:54:13 and of course, the avernum series is stellar 21:55:47 umh. basilishII fails x11 check 21:56:07 I do actually currently have x11 installed' 21:56:49 nortti, maybe not the development headers? 21:56:50 or such 21:56:59 x11 have a lot of different packages for that 21:57:10 if you mean configure failed? 21:57:14 config.log should help 21:57:15 yes 21:58:04 nortti, hm my ~/src/mac contains a debug build of libsdl. Yeah, it can be annoying to get working... XD 21:58:17 ... 21:58:33 nortti, that was for sheepshaver though 21:58:41 oh looks like I checked SheepShaver out from CVS? 21:59:13 nortti, if you are interested in SheepSaver this might be useful: :pserver:anoncvs@cvs.cebix.net:/home/cvs/cebix 21:59:22 repo is "SheepShaver" 21:59:27 when my iBook g4 still worked I had pretty much built complete netbsd system under ~/src 21:59:54 nortti, g4? That thing was way more powerful than your current computer 22:00:05 yes. is broke 22:00:08 I have a first model ibook g3 22:00:14 dead battery 22:00:22 the colored ones 22:00:22 oh and the power connector is glitchy 22:00:27 yes, blue 22:00:38 so you better sit very still when using that computer 22:00:39 how much RAM? what OS? 22:01:15 ok. let me quess. it has Mac OS 9? 22:01:17 nortti, OS 9 (came with OS 8.6 iirc, but my dad got an imac SE at the same time, that came with an OS 9 disc, so I used that to upgrade) 22:01:41 as for RAM, 32 MB built in, 32 MB added 22:01:47 so a whopping total of 64 MB! 22:02:07 same amount of ram as I now have 22:02:21 300 MHz 22:02:25 3.2 GB disk space 22:02:43 nortti, which desktop environment do you use? 22:02:45 LXDE? 22:02:55 or just a simple window manager? 22:02:58 like twm 22:03:05 I don't use x11. I use links2 -g amd mplayer fbdev 22:03:13 *and 22:04:12 nortti, you need x11 for basiliskII though 22:04:15 and sheepshaver 22:04:22 anyway sheepshaver is going to strain your RAM 22:04:24 yes. I have it installed 22:04:26 your CPU is probably fine 22:05:06 I sometimes have to use x11 (hv3, netsurf, pygame) and then I either use wwm or mwm 22:05:31 pygame? 22:05:34 isn't that a library 22:05:47 i've got pygame. 22:06:10 yes. pygame uses sdl and requires x11 22:06:12 the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended 22:06:26 by someone O.o 22:06:32 I have python 2.5.1 22:06:38 i don't know :D 22:06:49 i think the most important thing is don't get 3.x 22:07:07 the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended <-- uh? 22:07:20 anyway python 2.7 should be fine then 22:07:24 well.. 22:07:26 i dunno 22:07:29 3.x is very different from 2.x 22:07:40 you need to port all but trivial programs 22:07:56 usually not too hard to port 22:08:03 i am under the impression that 2.7 might be too far 22:08:13 but i am new to the python world 22:08:13 unless you are using the C API 22:08:26 and at least on windows pygame is not thread safe. when I programmed for it I made my own game engine with corountine scheduler as pygame froze wen I tried to use threads :P 22:08:29 that can be a lot of work to port (I have first hand experience of that) 22:09:13 isn't there a small program for autonmaticaly converting python 2 to python 3? 22:09:29 nortti, is python ever thread safe? 22:09:39 it uses a fucking global lock for the entire interpreter 22:09:54 theres a lot of fun little games made for python 2.x 22:09:58 all you can do is make some pure-C routines drop that lock while doing IO tasks and such 22:10:12 so python is in effect single threaded 22:10:17 single core 22:10:46 has anybody ever got grail (pure python web browser) to work? 22:11:00 pure python web browser? Insane 22:11:08 CPython is slow 22:11:30 I know. and it is from the python 2.0 era 22:11:35 python itself isn't slow. PyPy is like several times faster than CPython 22:11:42 however, PyPy is still slow 22:11:43 might as well use mod_rewrite to render the page into a data: png image 22:11:50 compared to something like cython 22:12:30 olsner, to be fair, mod_rewrite is extremely suited to string rewriting, I'm not sure it would perform as good at a task like this 22:13:20 you're "not sure"? :D 22:13:33 olsner, actually I'm sure it wouldn't 22:13:43 but I don't have hard evidence to back up that statement 22:13:51 (I haven't tested after all) 22:15:19 olsner, anyway you can see an order of magnitude speed up using cython instead of cpython 22:15:25 at least for some use cases 22:15:47 oh, I thought cython was a misspelling of cpython 22:15:54 no 22:17:00 olsner, we had a lab at university to implement a reversi AI, the course used python. I implemented a pure python version, it managed to get to 5 ply (using alpha-beta pruning). Then I made a cython version and easily got to 8 ply on the same machine. (There were some limits on how long it was allowed to think about a move, iirc 15 seconds) 22:17:29 a pure C version would probably have performed slightly better than that even (since some python API calls remained) 22:17:38 what's a ply 22:17:42 Phantom__Hoover, a half-move 22:17:50 it is a term used in reversi AIs 22:18:15 Phantom__Hoover, so 2 ply means the AI is looking ahead by one move by itself, and one move by the opponent 22:18:39 I have no idea who invented the word ply for that 22:20:58 anyways the calls that remained were fairly expensive, some accesses of a python dict iirc. A 2D C array would have been sufficient and worked well, but that would have meant rewriting the teacher-provided GUI code 22:22:04 (also it would have involved manual memory management) 23:31:55 -!- nortti_ has joined. 23:43:26 unix v7 is not very well suitable for daily use 23:46:16 i interpret that as meaning it's best for non-interactive apps like servers 23:47:12 well maybe. it is pretty light 23:47:18 -!- kallisti has joined. 23:47:36 `ls 23:47:39 bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom 23:49:08 OH GOD THE SILENCE 23:49:11 MAKE IT STOP. 23:49:31 hi 23:49:39 hi 23:49:51 SHHHH 23:49:56 WE'RE BEING SILENT HERE 23:50:01 NO FUCK IT 23:50:06 I AM GOING TO MAKE THE WORDS 23:50:11 `? kallisti 23:50:14 kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity 23:50:23 accurate. 23:50:57 `words 20 # hello does this still work? 23:51:03 ferrito sciallcifor afl gee nov sorthalfp bearlin euesdi expoemlo preconf koele unglebo tobalmi pion pen quolicalloq guidi maufi johan fliously 23:51:05 yesssss 23:51:17 my #esoteric legacy. 23:51:39 quite 23:54:17 `run file `which words` 23:54:21 ​/hackenv/bin/words: a /usr/bin/perl script text executable 23:54:58 `run cat `which words` | paste 23:55:01 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27827 23:55:14 `cat paste 23:55:17 cat: paste: Is a directory 23:55:17 `cat `which paste` 23:55:20 cat: `which paste`: No such file or directory 23:55:28 oh right 23:55:31 `run cat `which paste` 23:55:34 ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" 23:55:42 oh right. 23:56:02 `run paste `which words` 23:56:05 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9578 23:56:11 nortti_: USELESS USE OF CAT POLICE ACTIVATE. 23:57:14 ok. I also grep the cat sometimes 23:57:26 yes, we all do. 23:58:10 `help 23:58:12 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:58:24 you can also look it up in the repository 23:58:49 how.. ordinary. 23:59:24 `which url 23:59:27 ​/hackenv/bin/url 23:59:41 `run url `which words` 23:59:44 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/words 2012-07-05: 00:00:24 ...that didn't work 00:01:33 the /hackenv/ shouldn't be there 00:01:43 `cat bin/url 00:01:45 ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/'"$1" \ else \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/' \ fi 00:03:26 `run echo $PATH 00:03:29 ​/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin 00:06:10 does anyone here have any experience with unix v[567] 00:06:52 istr someone here tried to get something running on the earliest unix possible 00:07:23 unix v1 00:07:29 +? 00:07:49 by "possible", i mean the earliest that was at all reasonable 00:07:58 oh 00:08:55 whar version was it? 00:09:03 you know what would be awesome.. hackbot + simh images 00:09:33 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 00:09:37 nortti_: i'm not implying i remember this at all clearly 00:10:35 what was the command to download data to HackEgo 00:10:40 fetch 00:11:00 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:11:57 but yeah. unix v7 would be fun as it is at least usable for programming kinda modernly 00:12:44 (v6 doesn't have this little thing called stdio) 00:13:18 i forgot that day to day use doesn't normally include programming 00:14:14 oh and from my experience v5 and v6 don't have malloc 00:14:21 `run lsb_release -d 00:14:25 Description:.Debian GNU/Linux 00:14:46 `run uname -a 00:14:49 Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux 00:16:39 HackEgo with old unix images might actually be feasible as some old unixes are now under bsd license 00:17:35 it would be nice to switch between them arbitrarily, but how would it be possible to fetch data into the simulator? 00:19:05 (and obviously mercurial is out of the question) 00:19:30 what kind of console languages do these things even run? 00:19:32 * kallisti is clueless. 00:19:57 original bourne shell, ed sceiprs 00:20:07 *scripts 00:21:05 oh. and little warning. ed is the only text editor on research unixes 0-7 00:21:09 hm, so technically it should be possible to fetch data from a URL and place it some file on the system. 00:21:16 +in 00:21:37 even if you have to do so through ed. 00:21:54 yes. maybe there would be uuencode system 00:22:20 so special chars wouldn't mess it up 00:22:50 # is default char for backspace btw 00:23:31 okay. 00:24:19 stty erase '^H' should fix that 00:24:27 * kallisti comes back to #esoteric, and something exciting is happening. 00:25:03 this is good. 00:25:50 nortti_: is that what you're actually working on, or...? 00:25:57 yes 00:26:13 that and v7-x86 port 00:26:14 do you need... help? 00:26:28 well, "need" is the wrong word. 00:27:20 not really. but I'll tell you if I find sonething interesting to do 00:28:06 it doesn't really need to be interesting. In fact, the less interesting it is the more suited it is, most likely. 00:28:50 * kallisti knowledge of archaic hardware = 0 00:29:20 ok. do you know how to get daemon running on HackEgo 00:30:44 the libc function? 00:31:16 I mean HackEgo has a timeout period for every process 00:31:22 oh. 00:31:32 and you want it to not do that. 00:31:38 i thought HackEgo ran each command in a separate chroot 00:31:48 seperate shell, maybe. 00:31:53 and removed it afterwards... 00:32:05 on separate umlbox 00:32:06 after merging the repositories 00:33:00 I'd have to dive through the source to figure out how to make that possible. Would you want it to be a seperate set of commands from the typical interface? 00:33:22 that sounds good 00:33:59 * oerjan would assume only Gregor could make such a change... 00:34:53 lets create HackEgo2!! 00:35:07 lolno. 00:35:23 I'm actually basically going to do something sort of like that with my current perl bot. 00:35:35 eventually. 00:35:47 your perl bot? 00:35:57 oh yes. I have a bot written in perl. 00:36:10 I should probably put it on github or something. 00:36:56 it's pretty easy to add things to it. you could do all the chroot jail stuff as a plugin. 00:37:01 actually I think I could integrate simh in my own irc bot 00:37:49 ls 00:37:51 er 00:37:52 wrong window. 00:37:58 nortti_: language? 00:38:03 python 00:38:31 yes, should be (fairly) painless. 00:39:26 you can play with it on this channel or on #esoteric-en. #help should show you the start and you can ask more about it from me 00:39:48 Yeah, HackEgo isn't designed for daemons. 00:39:53 I couldn't think of a way to do that safely. 00:39:57 If you have suggestions, lay 'em on me. 00:40:29 oonbotti: do you still work? 00:40:30 nortti_: Why do you ask that? 00:40:56 ok. my code cleaning didn't break it this time 00:47:43 here's some examples of what a plugin looks like with the perl bot: http://sprunge.us/beGU?perl and http://sprunge.us/aVeD?perl 00:47:56 so you can see if you're interested. 00:48:39 * kallisti is about to switch from using Tie::Persistent to Tie::Hash::MongoDB for plugin persistence, since the former is kind of bad. 00:51:26 of course, you would need to use perl. 00:51:30 which could be a problem. 00:52:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:53:09 * kallisti spots flaws in URL plugin 00:53:26 not semantic. just needless verbosity. 00:57:25 `ls 00:57:28 bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom 00:57:32 `run ls 00:57:35 bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom 00:57:42 `id 00:57:45 uid=5000 gid=905193 00:57:49 `id 00:57:52 uid=5000 gid=552091 00:57:55 `ps aux 00:57:58 USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 912 276 ? S 00:57 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [kworker/0:0] \ 0 5 0.0 0.0 0 00:58:05 It works in PM 00:58:23 :p 01:25:05 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 01:30:52 -!- rolebot has joined. 01:30:57 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:30:58 `unload Haskell 01:30:58 Done. 01:31:01 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unload: not found 01:31:07 oh right. 01:31:09 that will be an issue. 01:32:10 $help 01:32:25 ~help 01:32:45 `perl use Rolebot::Config; $Rolebot::Config::cmd_prefix='~$'; 01:32:45 "~\$" 01:32:48 Can't open perl script "use Rolebot::Config; $Rolebot::Config::cmd_prefix='~$';": No such file or directory 01:32:56 ~help 01:33:22 oh, duh. 01:33:26 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:34:22 -!- rolebot has joined. 01:34:26 ~help 01:34:26 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 01:35:31 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4 01:35:37 HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA - YouTube 01:57:37 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:07:37 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:12:15 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 02:24:58 -!- lazard has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:49:04 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:51:38 -!- edwardk has joined. 03:09:11 there's a guy on the emp servers 03:09:19 called oglokoog 03:09:28 and for a second i thought it might be oklopol 03:19:30 hah 03:20:16 parametric subtyping could be interesting 03:20:43 so a type T x where T x is a subtype of x 03:20:50 does something like this already exist? 03:21:27 kallisti: in other languages, not scala 03:21:42 er, not sure why scala was the default choice. 03:21:50 sorry, thought i was in #scala when i replied 03:21:59 oh, lol. NOPE 03:22:16 you're in the weird part of freenode. 03:22:19 you can do that in c++ with a template for instance 03:22:47 template class TextureTemplate : public Baseclass 03:22:49 but C++ templates are just glorified text macros. 03:28:05 which, I guess doesn't really mean much. it's still a "type constructor" of some description. 03:31:36 edwardk: would you recommend learning Scala? 03:31:44 no 03:32:32 I've been looking at branching out from Haskell into hybrid FP languages. I was thinking either Clojure or Scala. 03:32:39 but may O'Caml would be a good choice. 03:32:40 when programming in haskell, when the compiler craps out i know its my code and i can fix it accordingly 03:32:41 *maybe 03:33:07 when programming in scala maybe 1 in 10 times i find a bug its because of a bug in the scala compiler, not my code 03:33:12 screw that 03:33:16 ah. yeah.. 03:35:14 i have perfectly well define scala code that causes their compiler to just crap out and emit partial classes thinking they are closed and they have told me they just don't intend to fix it 03:35:28 wonderful. 03:36:15 specs are just figments of your imagination. 03:37:45 scala is probably the most usable strict functional language to me, and that is sad ;) 03:37:59 these days my programming is mostly in Haskell, Perl, or bash. I'm not sure if this is good (I've settled on a set of tools I find applicable to most situations) or bad (I'm getting too comfortable and should dabble in other things for a while) 03:38:17 ocaml is easy to understand how it the resulting code gets built, it plugs into an gcc like toolchain very easily 04:00:58 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:58:54 -!- Chaotic_D has joined. 05:01:21 I'm searching. ... but I guess I'm trying really hard not to find anything. and succeeding. 05:01:30 Hello. 05:03:30 oh, I see. My mistake. Thanks. 05:04:13 -!- Chaotic_D has left. 05:05:51 lolwut 05:12:03 maybe he was looking for #soteric 05:51:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:08:52 I... don't suppose anyone would know offhand whether a European driver's license is a good enough ID for the "you must be able to show ID" requirement Belgian print-it-yourself PDF railway tickets have? 07:08:53 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 07:09:38 I guess it depends on the railway company what they accept 07:10:19 It's SNCB, the Belgian national railway company. 07:10:29 Maybe it's here in the FAQ. (Maybe it's not.) 07:11:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:11:38 -!- edwardk has joined. 07:40:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:19:31 -!- edwardk_ has joined. 09:21:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:21:08 -!- edwardk_ has changed nick to edwardk. 09:39:21 * itidus21 is pondering idly. 09:40:26 Oh no! We should all get to cover. 09:41:18 in order to do anything you have to concede to not do anything else, until you are done 09:43:28 so people set up the category of time wasted. that doing a thing is either wasting time or it isn't 09:44:56 then, there is selecting from among the activities deemed to be not wasting time, so they say, what interests you? what can you do? 09:45:37 with this point of view, time spent watching videos is wasted on a blind man, and time spent listening to music is wasted on a deaf man 09:46:21 but if a man is presented with a foreign text, he could read it if he invested sufficient time in learning the foreign language 09:47:45 and interests are sometimes circumstantial, such as being interested in things you already had some exposure to, or things which play into your biases 09:51:24 but also it is advised by many to not indulge in activities for pleasure which often comes at others pain, or wealth which often comes at others loss, or power which often comes with corruption 09:51:24 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:52:50 im starting to spin away from reality though 09:52:57 in my posts 09:54:10 anyway, a business specializes in this and concedes to not specialize in that; a shop specializes in selling X, and concedes to not sell Y 09:54:29 a book's pages discuss X and concede to not discuss Y 09:56:24 and a person is at place X and concedes not to be at anyplace Y; 09:56:53 09:59:46 maybe my point is that it's wrong to view it as a concession 10:02:11 or not. anyway i'm all done 10:14:06 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:20:38 -!- DH____ has joined. 10:20:39 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:21:32 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:21:38 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:00:13 Daywalt Horror: There’s No Such Thing… http://youtu.be/TJytKD2Kt-w 11:00:14 DAYWALT HORROR: There's No Such Thing... - YouTube 11:08:02 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:30:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:04:02 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 12:22:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:22:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 12:35:43 do you have any idea why simh pdp11 emulator eats some parts of the starts of input stream if it is from pipe or file? 12:46:01 Maybe it expects that files have some kind of a header? (Or it's just buggy.) 12:46:30 The source would at least know. 12:47:03 I mean like pdp11 < input 12:47:45 also it chopd off bytes at the start of every line 12:49:21 ./sim_console.c:1135:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */ 12:49:24 ./sim_console.c:1177:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */ 12:49:27 ./sim_console.c:1192:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */ 12:49:30 I'd check those bits first. 12:49:57 -!- elliott has joined. 12:50:07 Deewiant: What's the UTF-8 byte sequence for the Unicode FULL BLOCK character? 12:50:39 I'm not Deewiant, but I believe 0xE2 0x96 0x88. 12:50:47 Thanks. 12:50:49 You are good enough. 12:50:52 For now. 12:50:55 Yay. 12:51:08 Yes, that's correct. 12:51:19 I was waiting for Deewiant to confirm it. 12:51:21 I don't trust fizzie/ 12:51:23 Unyay. 12:51:23 *fizzie. 12:51:35 Okay, thanks. 12:51:35 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 12:52:09 -!- elliott has joined. 12:52:11 Say it looks like 12:52:12 â~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ 12:52:13 instead. 12:52:24 Why is that happening? I'm using a UTF-8 terminal all proper and evreything. 12:52:25 *everything 12:52:29 Maybe this function is messing it up. 12:52:53 Maybe it's, like, byte orders and shit 12:53:07 Deewiant: Ah, addch is being called on each byte of the UTF-8 thing. 12:53:09 That first character is U+00E2 so that's latin-1 (or another latin-x) somewhere. 12:53:14 How do I make that work? :( 12:53:22 waddch? :-P 12:53:36 (I don't know.) 12:53:38 waddch appears to be window-addch, not wide-addch. 12:53:44 Yes, I knew that. 12:54:24 Are you sure you know anything any more? 12:54:43 Try adding A_ALTCHARSET to the characters. 12:55:16 if you can learn from your false axioms, then it's less likely to be a dream 12:55:26 Adding howso, Deewiant? 12:55:30 addch ACS_BLOCK instead and hope things work out right? 12:55:33 elliott: Er, also: are you linking to libncursesw? 12:55:57 Deewiant: -lncurses, apparently. I guess I should change that? But I thought those were The Same in 2012. 12:55:59 elliott: Literally +, though it's probably a high bit mask thing so | is more semantic. 12:56:42 The libncurses.so here is 44K smaller than the libncursesw.so. 12:57:46 There's an add_wch thing too, but I have no idea when it comes to the whole ncurses/ncursesw mess. It certainly doesn't feel like 2012 if you go in there. 12:57:55 Yes, I just found that as well. 12:58:23 You might need to setlocale(), too. 12:58:25 -!- boily has joined. 12:58:25 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 12:58:37 -!- boily has joined. 12:59:04 fizzie: What header is ACS_BLOCK in. :( 12:59:45 It's in my 'man addch' which just mentions . 12:59:59 thanx 13:00:06 hmm. I changed sim_console source so it thinks it is a tty. It still doesn't work 13:00:57 fizzie: ACS_BLOCK shows as the digit 0. :/ 13:01:40 I will try Deewiant's idea. 13:01:49 Deewiant: By the way, these characters need to be coloured. 13:01:53 I'd recommend add_wch first. 13:01:56 Will A_ALTCHARSET mess that up? 13:01:57 Okay. 13:02:06 I don't know, I'm just googling stuff. 13:02:39 Yes, Deewiant. 13:02:41 That is what I need you for. 13:03:06 So, add_wch(0x2588), I suppose. 13:03:07 And grepping, too, if fizzie hadn't answered the ACS_BLOCK header thing. 13:03:14 Oh, wait, it's a pointer, what. 13:03:56 You need to use setcchar() to initialize it, apparently. 13:04:04 :/ 13:04:11 That takes a const wchar_t* and turns it into a cchar_t. 13:04:19 Along with the colour and whatnot. 13:04:20 A const wchar_t * and a thousand other parameters. 13:04:21 * itidus21 hunts down whoever designed this. 13:04:38 Anyway, uh. Maybe I will just use octothorpes instead. 13:04:42 The last parameter is evidently reserved and must be NULL. 13:04:51 Did you do the libncursesw thing? 13:05:37 Oh. No. Was the expectation that that would fix the original solution? 13:05:47 I thought it might. 13:05:54 Also do the setlocale thing. 13:05:55 I will try. 13:06:07 setlocale(LC_ALL, "") if I recall the incantation correctly. 13:06:58 OK, trying. 13:10:01 nortti: I'unno, assuming the POSIX impls it seems to be just read()ing a single byte at a time, which should happen more or less similarly no matter where the input comes from. But it's a bit convoluted code, I'm not sure what that whole KFLAG deal is. 13:10:26 â–ˆ 13:10:29 Is this the right character? 13:10:48 It looks like a block to me. 13:11:05 Thanks Deewiant you are the "best" (best here is used figuratively). 13:11:06 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 13:11:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: The Unicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 13:11:21 And yes, that's the right character. 13:11:55 Now I wonder what ended up being necessary. 13:11:57 I was going to do that /topic thing right after e first left, but didn't manage before this add-on question. 13:14:26 -!- elliott has joined. 13:14:33 Is there a block character like that that isn't quite as tall? 13:14:49 U+2587 LOWER SEVEN EIGHTHS BLOCK ? 13:15:08 Preferably vertically centred? It is okay if this is impossible. 13:16:45 Can't seem to find one. 13:19:44 See e.g. http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/block_elements.html 13:19:44 Block Elements – Test for Unicode support in Web browsers 13:19:51 That's a new one. 13:21:08 ~help 13:21:09 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 13:21:18 ~help Messages 13:21:19 Messages commands: messages, tell 13:21:21 ~help RP 13:21:21 RP commands: roll, system 13:21:28 ~help system 13:21:29 Usage: system [] -- switches the dice roller to another system 13:21:32 ~help frink 13:21:33 Usage: frink -- Executes a frink expression. Frink is a powerful calculator program. See http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/ for more information. 13:21:42 O kay. 13:21:59 What is this thing? 13:22:11 Is it really going to spam every time someone pastes a link in the channel? 13:22:36 (Amusingly both @dice and `frink already exist...) 13:23:14 Looks like kallisti put it here about 12 hours ago. 13:23:15 > 1+1 13:23:16 2 13:23:17 2 13:23:19 :P 13:23:22 Niiiice. 13:23:26 Have fun with that. 13:23:28 Oh well, not my problem. 13:23:30 -!- elliott has left ("Bye!"). 13:23:43 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 13:23:48 > "#echo foo" 13:23:49 "#echo foo" 13:23:50 "#echo foo" 13:23:54 http://google.com 13:24:01 $echo foo 13:24:36 rolebot has no echo commabd? 13:24:45 ~echo foo 13:24:51 ~help words 13:24:52 Use words --help for help 13:24:55 ~words --help 13:24:56 Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] 13:24:56 ..options: 13:24:56 .. -l, --list list valid datasets 13:24:56 .. -d, --debug debugging output 13:25:01 O kay. 13:25:04 Evidently not. 13:26:40 > PutStrLn "foo" 13:26:41 Not in scope: data constructor `PutStrLn' 13:26:41 Not in scope: data constructor `PutStrLn' 13:26:49 > putStrLn "foo" 13:26:51 13:26:51 13:27:56 ~words --finnish 10 13:27:57 päristanisimmissä tukoiltakuluvisuu taituminään otsillaajenetukeavaltu saantua ruosi puneinäni innoilisto sammiltasin leimpiensa 13:28:11 > fix id 13:28:15 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 13:28:17 mueval: ExitFailure 1 13:28:17 ..mueval: Prelude.undefined 13:28:30 What, it does > too? 13:28:35 > last [1..] 13:28:39 I only noticed that link title thing. 13:28:39 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 13:28:40 mueval: ExitFailure 1 13:28:41 ..mueval: Prelude.undefined 13:29:06 Is that a good idea? 13:29:21 Nope. 13:29:31 Should I quiet it for the moment, maybe? 13:30:06 If you want. Alternatively, wait until it's a problem and hope you're online? :-P 13:30:19 $tell kallisti so you rolebot really is lambdabot clone 13:30:19 Done. 13:30:32 $version 13:30:40 ~version 13:30:54 $tell nortti foo 13:30:55 Tell yourself. 13:30:56 ok 13:31:05 $tell rolebot foo 13:31:06 Cool! 13:31:08 I'm possibly not online terribly well from here, since we need to get all our tourismy stuff done in the evenings. 13:31:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@h47.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net. 13:31:32 I was hoping for a nick-based +q. 13:31:35 Does that shut up kallisti as well? 13:31:39 Probably. 13:31:46 That's what I get for trusting ChanServ to do the sensible thing. 13:32:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@h47.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net. 13:32:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 13:32:19 Deewiant, you say that like it's a bad thing. 13:32:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q rolebot!*@*. 13:32:30 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 13:32:32 > (+) 1 1 13:32:34 2 13:32:35 (I feel stupid now.) 13:32:41 :P 13:33:12 $tell kallisti make that thing not answer plain '>' but to use some other prefix and I'll -q it. 13:37:23 -!- elliott has joined. 13:37:28 Also $ is a supremely bad bot prefix. 13:37:32 (And hugging three bot prefices is just rude.) 13:37:52 (...as is spewing a line on every single line with a URL in it, but I already covered that.) 13:37:55 Wait, why did I rejoin? 13:37:56 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 13:38:21 is using three prefixes rude if one of them is oonbotti: ? 13:38:33 ?tell lambdabot did you know you're rude too 13:38:34 Nice try ;) 13:38:52 @tell lambdabot well, you *are*, you have some many prefixen 13:38:52 Nice try ;) 13:39:22 prefixen? 13:39:38 box, boxen ~ prefix, prefixen 13:39:42 Right. 13:39:51 unix, unixen? 13:39:57 s/some/so/ though. 13:40:06 VAX, VAXen. 13:40:35 #msg oonbotti can you send messages to yourself? I forget 13:40:35 Ok 13:42:58 More stupid things: using this leftover workstation that's some old Athlon 64 X2 with one (1) gigabyte of memory (it goes all swappity-swap whenever I flip from MATLAB to Firefox) even though my personal laptop would have (a) more cores, (b) eight times the memory, and (c) a non-awkward keyboard layout. It's just that it's obviously impossible to get that inducted as a member of the local ... 13:43:04 ... networks. 13:43:34 What do you need the local networks for? 13:43:42 and that is still more powerful than any computer I have ever haf 13:43:44 All the data is in there. 13:43:45 *had 13:44:14 Then ssh, and run firefox on your laptop. 13:44:24 Unless firefox needs the data too. 13:44:50 Well, it needs a network. There's supposed to be some sort of wireless, though. 13:45:05 Where are you? :-P 13:45:16 #quit 13:45:19 hm.. 13:45:20 If at work, there should be 2-3 networks. 13:45:20 http://www.esat.kuleuven.be/ <- here. 13:45:23 oh I thought I disabled Haskell. 13:45:38 ~unload Haskell 13:45:39 Doesn't everywhere have eduroam? 13:46:09 I haven't ever used eduroam anywhere, I don't even know how to formulate my user name there. I guess I could try it out, though. 13:46:16 There's a local 'campusnet' too, though. 13:46:22 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:46:33 Haskell clonage is no longer a thing. 13:46:39 It was a huge pain, but I got it to work on both my laptop and my phone yesterday. 13:47:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 13:47:14 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q iforgotthebotnam!*@*. 13:47:24 That wasn't helpful. 13:47:25 lol 13:47:26 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q rolebot!*@*. 13:47:29 > 1+1 13:47:31 2 13:47:34 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 13:47:36 ~load haskell 13:47:36 Insufficient privileges. 13:47:40 ~help 13:47:40 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 13:47:45 ~help 13:47:45 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 13:47:52 ~help Admin 13:47:53 Admin commands: admin, ignore, load, perl, shutdown, unignore, unload 13:47:59 ~help lastsaid 13:48:00 Usage: lastsaid [] -- shows the last thing someone said while identified by services 13:48:04 Well, I had already written the "/mode #esoteric -q" bit. 13:48:16 ~lastsaid zzo38 13:48:17 Nothing said by zzo38 13:48:18 Can't you down-arrow to do something else? 13:48:27 -!- TodPunk has joined. 13:48:37 Deewiant: Yeeeeees, but... 13:48:41 ~frink 50 euros -> dollars_1960 13:48:45 7.9747344603267845878 13:48:56 I basically just took everything I liked from all the #esoteric bots. :P 13:49:10 $time London 13:49:11 Time in London, United Kingdom (GMT+1): 2012-07-05 14:49 13:49:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:50:13 -!- oonbotti has joined. 13:50:26 http://example.com/ 13:50:26 IANA — Example domains 13:50:31 kallisti: why doesn't your bot have echo? 13:50:39 ...why... would it? 13:50:51 `perl "echo" 13:50:58 >_> 13:51:01 Can't open perl script ""echo"": No such file or directory 13:51:05 lol? 13:51:06 because every bot must have echo! 13:51:13 > text "echo" 13:51:14 echo 13:51:15 >_> 13:51:23 @echo foo 13:51:23 echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]} 13:51:24 rest:"foo" 13:51:28 ^echo foo 13:51:29 foo foo 13:51:30 -!- mromanb has joined. 13:51:33 `echo foo 13:51:35 can it do 13:51:35 nortti: presumably so you can bot loop it? 13:51:35 foo 13:51:40 mromanb: bf_cu -[+>+<[+<]>]>+ 13:51:41 Cells used: 4;[0, 1, 2, 3] 13:51:47 no 13:52:08 kallisti: no. you should use some kind of ignore list or whitespace/nbsp 13:52:19 `ignore mromanb lambdabot HackEgo 13:52:21 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 13:52:28 $ignore mromanb lambdabot HackEgo 13:52:28 Done. 13:52:31 okay. 13:52:41 http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/lol.html 13:52:42 ^ul (http://users.ics.tkk.fi/lol.html)S 13:52:42 http://users.ics.tkk.fi/lol.html 13:52:44 404 Not Found 13:52:50 Whoops, I typoed the URL. 13:52:57 $ignore fungot 13:52:57 Done. 13:52:58 kallisti: that's the scheme ( no pun intended 13:52:58 #echo !echo foo 13:52:59 !echo foo 13:53:01 foo 13:53:05 #echo !echo #echo foo 13:53:06 !echo #echo foo 13:53:06 ​#echo foo 13:53:14 Damnable typos. 13:53:27 lol 13:53:34 #echo ~words 8 13:53:35 ~words 8 13:53:35 condannons care cepta imr bira man airt vdharaud 13:54:11 Anyway, the whole URL title thing is kinda noisy. I don't care enough to mind, but I'd vote nay if it came to a vote. 13:54:16 ^ignore 13:54:17 ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti)! 13:54:30 fizzie: I can turn it off. or, you know, just have the bot leave, since it doesn't need to be here. 13:54:31 ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|rolebot)! 13:54:32 OK. 13:54:46 Well, if someone else complains. 13:54:48 it does squelch itself if the title contains absolutely no new information. 13:54:52 http://google.com/ 13:55:18 which is often. 13:56:27 Also, does someone have a guess what "Meat tree with cauliflower" is? (It's on the menu here.) 13:57:24 Google just finds Snopes articles about meat trees and whatnot. 13:57:34 what the hell is a meat tree. 13:57:41 ...... 13:57:44 why did I ask that. 13:57:47 A tree that bears meat instead of fruit. 13:57:53 I think. 13:58:02 But does it meet bears? 13:58:42 `ignore Egobot toBogE Sparkbot optBot oonbotti 13:58:44 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 13:58:47 bah 13:58:50 $ignore Egobot toBogE Sparkbot optBot oonbotti 13:58:50 Done. 13:58:52 the old prefix was ` 13:58:59 It's "Boomstammetje met bloemkool" in the local lingo, if that helps. (Google translate from Dutch just says "Trunk Metje with cauliflower" about that...) 14:00:12 Image search with that does find some consistent results, though. 14:00:24 Some sort of a round thing. 14:01:02 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:01:20 -!- mromanb has joined. 14:02:04 mromanb: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> efn 14:02:04 | 14:02:04 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:02:04 /`\ 14:02:14 ok. it's still buggy :) 14:03:27 -!- itidus20 has joined. 14:04:54 Deewiant: Re eduroam, I tried it once with the phone but there was something about certificates. Anyway, what was the format for the user name? account@aalto.fi? 14:05:08 account@org.aalto.fi 14:05:16 At least, that's the one that works for me. 14:05:25 Depending on what OS's instructions you look at there are three options. 14:05:55 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:06:24 I think I saw "now @aalto.fi" somewhere. 14:06:27 The certificate to use changed in March, and the one it changed to didn't work for me (not "Thawte root CA" which I guessed mapped to Thawte Primary Root CA; what worked was Thawte Premium Server CA) 14:06:30 Yes, I saw that too. 14:06:45 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:06:51 What works for me is the org.aalto.fi plus a certificate that isn't mentioned anywhere in the instructions. 14:06:55 Works both on the phone and the laptop. 14:07:17 I think I'll try this local eduroam with the phone. 14:07:29 Though it asks for EAP type (PEAP/TLS/TTLS). 14:07:33 PEAP. 14:07:52 And I guess EAP MSCHAPv2 over EAP GTC, at least in Aalto. 14:07:56 (I found the correct certificate by observing wpa_cli and then using strace to see what certificate the access point sends.) 14:07:59 Not all eduroams are set up the same way, though. 14:08:08 True. 14:08:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:08:18 eduroam is great 14:08:18 At Aalto it's PEAP and MSCHAPv2. 14:08:26 At some point, some of them were using some sort of weird 802.1x+WEP combo. 14:08:26 it's that at UW as well 14:09:43 -!- mromanb has joined. 14:09:46 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 14:09:47 mromanb: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> efn 14:09:48 [mroman] [128.0] 14:09:48 | 14:09:48 >\ 14:09:58 ah, there we go. 14:10:12 "osso-wlan (3.0.20) unstable; urgency=low 14:10:13 * Fixed: NB#159194 - Add support for WEP cipher in WPA mode to support Eduroam, fixes the regression 14:10:16 -- Jin Qing Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:34:40 +0300" 14:10:22 Sounds such a weird thing to do. 14:11:31 mromanb: stlang M 10 13 avg \ 14:11:31 [mroman] Your program sucks! 14:11:49 hm :( 14:12:13 mromanb: stlang M 10 13 | avg \ 14:12:13 [mroman] [11.5] 14:12:18 osso-wlan? 14:12:42 mromanb: stlang M 10 13 .|^A \ 14:12:43 [mroman] None 14:13:15 mromanb: stlang M 10 13 | ^A \ 14:13:15 [mroman] [11.5] 14:13:49 nortti: N900 has all kinds of 'osso-this' and 'osso-that' and 'whatever-osso' packages; AFAIK comes from the OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) organization at Nokia. 14:14:07 "The OSSO organization (Open Source Software Operations) goal was to bring Nokia’s first Open Source and Linux based mobile terminal on the market and build an open source platform to support future product development." 14:14:31 From the days of those Internet Tablets. 14:15:09 oh those. I have 770 and n810 14:15:31 thinking about it weren't there a osso-xterm 14:15:37 mromanb: stlang M [] 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : {?2} /f \ 14:15:37 Yes. 14:15:37 [mroman] Your program sucks! 14:15:45 It's funny how they keep putting those NB#xxxxxx internal bug-tracker bug ids everywhere, but of course it's not publicly available anywhere. 14:15:48 Ok. I unlearned how to code in it :D 14:16:44 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:16:51 osso-xterm, the terminal that can't do dark grey. 14:17:15 (Well, technically speaking it's the libvte4 package's fault.) 14:18:17 -!- oonbotti has joined. 14:18:17 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7164 -- the long, hard life of a bug report. 14:19:08 -!- mromanb has joined. 14:19:11 "SOFTWARE VERSION: 1.2009.42-11 -- Updating version field: Still an issue in 5.0/(2.2009.51-1) -- Updating version field again, is still broken in 10.2010.19-1 --" 14:20:00 is there any development in maemo fremantle? 14:20:20 There's that Community SSU thing. 14:20:31 Which is where that one-line patch finally ended in. 14:20:58 yay 14:21:25 mromanb: stlang M {?2} [] 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : ./f/S(s # \ 14:21:26 [mroman] ['6', '.', '0'] 14:21:52 mromanb: help 14:21:52 [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:22:02 mromanb: foo 14:22:03 [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:22:04 He doesn't know how to help ;) 14:22:12 mromanb: info 14:22:12 [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:22:15 He's beyond help, it almost seems. 14:22:15 mromanb: man 14:22:16 [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:22:19 There is only bf_cu (brainfuck_cell usage) 14:22:25 and stlang (evaluate stlang) 14:22:32 mromanb: bf_cu +> 14:22:33 Cells used: 2;[0, 1] 14:22:36 mromanb: bf_cu +><<< 14:22:37 Cells used: 4;[0, 1, 230, 229] 14:23:04 mromanb: bf_cu +[>+] 14:23:05 Timeout! 14:23:44 mromanb: stlang M ./r(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \ 14:23:44 [mroman] Your program sucks! 14:23:57 readline is not available of course :) 14:24:31 mromanb: bf_cu ++++++[->++++++<]>[[->+<]>-] 14:24:32 Cells used: 38;[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37] 14:25:36 mromanb: bf_cu -[>+] 14:25:37 Cells used: 231;[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 1 14:25:54 231 is max cells :) 14:26:00 So it seems. 14:26:23 mromanb: stlang M '0 .(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \ 14:26:23 [mroman] [] 14:26:27 mromanb: stlang M '1 .(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \ 14:27:05 [mroman] Your program sucks! 14:27:07 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:27:56 `load Echo 14:27:59 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found 14:28:02 $load Echo 14:28:02 Echo failed to load. 14:28:16 $load Echo 14:28:16 Done. 14:28:25 $echo Behold, advanced IRC bot technology! 14:28:25 Behold, advanced IRC bot technology! 14:28:53 $echo #echo !echo foo 14:28:54 #echo !echo foo 14:28:54 !echo foo 14:28:55 foo 14:29:11 AND YET 14:29:13 !echo #echo foo 14:29:14 ​#echo foo 14:29:37 #echo $echo #echo 14:29:37 $echo #echo 14:29:41 ALSO YET 14:34:17 $hlurp 14:34:20 $hlep 14:34:21 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 14:34:24 more lambdabot clonage 14:36:03 -!- mromanb has joined. 14:36:08 mromanb: help 14:36:08 bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang) 14:36:08 bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 231; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000 14:36:41 bf_cu 14:36:45 mromanb: bf_cu 14:36:45 [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:37:16 He needs a program, of course ;) 14:37:24 what is "brainfuck cell usage"? 14:37:37 Well, cell usage of brainfuck programs? 14:37:46 what is cell usage 14:37:51 mromanb: bf_cu ,[.,] 14:37:51 Cells used: 1;[0] 14:37:52 How many cells it uses. 14:37:54 oh 14:37:57 ...yes. 14:38:15 mromanb: bf_cu +[>+] 14:38:16 Timeout! 14:38:54 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con .0(i \ cC M '0 N \ 14:38:54 [mroman] [] 14:39:05 huh. 14:39:05 mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+] 14:39:05 Timeout! 14:39:12 mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+<] 14:39:12 Cells used: 2;[0, 1] 14:39:27 mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+>+<] 14:39:27 Timeout! 14:39:30 mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+>+<<] 14:39:31 Cells used: 3;[0, 1, 2] 14:40:08 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \ 14:40:08 [mroman] [] 14:40:16 Hm. 14:40:22 Object functions have their own stack o_O 14:40:33 I forget. 14:40:42 mromanb: stlang 2 2 + 14:40:42 [kallisti] None 14:40:55 pssssh 14:41:17 what kind of production-ready real world esolang doesn't have a sandbox mode? 14:42:03 so frink wasn't working until I removed ulimits from it. Any idea why that would be? 14:42:20 $load Frink 14:42:20 Done. 14:42:22 $frink 2 + 2 14:42:39 /home/adam/bin/frink: line 30: 10284 Killed $java $flags -classpath $jar frink.gui.FrinkStarter "$@" 14:42:45 I guess it's exceeding the ulimits? 14:42:53 that sounds unlikely. 14:43:08 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con ##DEBUG_ON## .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \ 14:43:09 [mroman] [] 14:43:20 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:44:01 -!- edwardk has joined. 14:44:16 Looks like a bug to me o_O 14:44:20 -!- rolebot has joined. 14:44:32 mromanb: where? what? 14:44:32 [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:44:54 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con ##DEBUG_ON## .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \ 14:44:54 kallisti: You have 2 messages. Type ~messages to read them. 14:44:54 [kallisti] [] 14:45:47 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:45:55 object functions should return values as well 14:46:18 kallisti: It's Java, of course it's exceeding its ulimits. 14:46:40 my $max_memory = 100000; #in kilobytes 14:46:43 my $max_time = 5; #in seconds 14:46:45 ...... 14:47:05 Java will immediately claim ~1G 14:47:15 This is how GC works. 14:47:17 it hasn't in the past. 14:47:18 oh. 14:47:21 it's not a bug 14:47:30 constructors can't return values :) 14:47:31 kallisti: Yes, it has. 14:47:53 I mean.. I've used this same setup for a while and I haven't had problems. 14:48:02 $frink 3 + 3 14:48:04 6 14:48:08 $frink 2 + 2 14:48:14 Or maybe it's nondet X-D 14:48:29 `load Frink 14:48:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found 14:48:33 bah 14:48:39 $laod Frink 14:48:40 Done. 14:48:47 -!- mromanb has joined. 14:48:49 $fronk 2 + 2 14:48:55 I set it to 2 GBs 14:49:06 Frink frank fronk. 14:49:28 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo \ 14:49:29 [mroman] [, 0.0, ] 14:49:29 it's entirely possible that my code is broken and I don't know what I'm doing. 14:50:15 http://sprunge.us/XVYb?perl 14:50:32 $frink 2 + 2 14:50:34 4 14:50:36 kallisti: FRINK FRANK FRONK 14:50:47 $frank 500 euros -> dollars_1945 14:50:58 y u so slow. 14:51:02 probably ulimited 14:51:10 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ \ 14:51:10 [mroman] [' 0.0'] 14:51:18 0.0 14:52:08 Gregor: it's even doing the Java server thing to speed up load time. 14:52:24 $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945 14:52:28 $road Frink 14:52:29 Perhaps you meant: load roll 14:52:33 $load Frink 14:52:33 Done. 14:52:35 $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945 14:52:38 48.51380458194634815 14:52:40 I adjusted the max time 14:52:43 to 8 seconds 14:52:44 from 5 14:52:46 $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945 14:52:49 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ # ;l @\ 14:52:49 [mroman] Your program sucks! 14:52:50 48.527902878402193068 14:52:58 mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ # ;l @ \ 14:52:59 [mroman] ['<', 's', 't', 'd', 'o', 'u', 't', '>', ' ', '0', '.', " '0'"] 14:53:55 $frink 1 million euros -> dollars_1945 14:53:59 97055.805756804386137 14:54:03 hurray inflation 14:54:26 I think it also has historic great british currency but I don't remember the names 14:54:36 mromanb: stlang M 2 2 + \ 14:54:37 [mroman] [4.0] 14:54:44 btw ;). You need a main function. 14:54:56 mromanb: stlang fn main 2 2 + efn 14:54:57 [mroman] [4.0] 14:55:01 mroman: stlang M 2 2 + \ 14:55:04 $frink 100 aud -> 100 usd 14:55:07 Warning: undefined symbol "aud". 14:55:07 ..Warning: undefined symbol "usd". 14:55:14 ok tough one to word 14:55:16 $frink ?AUD 14:55:18 [AUD, Saudi_Arabia_Riyal, Saudi_Arabia_currency, Saudi_Arabia] 14:55:19 mromanb: M 2 2 + ! \ 14:55:19 [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't. 14:55:23 itidus21: no it's just case sensitive 14:55:24 mromanb: stlang M 2 2 + ! \ 14:55:25 [mroman] [24] 14:55:34 $frink 100 AUD -> USD 14:55:37 102.869 14:55:48 $frink 100 AUD -> 100 USD 14:55:51 1.02869 14:56:08 $frink 100 AUD -> CAD 14:56:09 100 AUD -> 100 USD is just... AUD -> USD 14:56:11 104.25530621056194853 14:56:22 kallisti: yeah that was me not thinking 14:56:41 mroman: stlang M 2 2 4 + + \ 14:56:43 $frink Australia 14:56:46 1.02866 dollar (currency) 14:56:52 mromanb: stlang M 2 2 4 + + \ 14:56:53 [mroman] [8.0] 14:57:05 mroman: was that network lag or program lag? :P 14:57:08 yay for .au 14:57:14 kallisti: You have to use mromanb: 14:57:17 not mroman: 14:57:18 ;) 14:57:29 change your name. 14:57:35 my tab complete is infallible. 14:57:54 mromanb: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop eclass M 'Foo new &bar \ 14:57:54 [mroman] None 14:57:57 damn. 14:58:06 mromanb: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop eclass M 'Foo new \ 14:58:06 [mroman] None 14:58:12 hm. 14:58:19 mromanb: stlang cls Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop ecls M 'Foo new \ 14:58:20 [mroman] Your program sucks! 14:58:22 $frink 100 AUD -> euro 14:58:25 83.020299447112474272 14:58:35 $frink 100 USD -> euro 14:58:35 oh 14:58:38 80.713507405464304451 14:58:44 prop does not work that way. 14:59:04 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:59:06 $frink 100 AUD -> GBP 14:59:09 66.238908992569507939 14:59:12 Hello 14:59:13 bastards 14:59:17 so it's Haskell: OO stack-based edition? (wait that doesn't make any sense) 14:59:17 I can't send newlines over IRC sadly :( 14:59:25 or can I!!! 14:59:28 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:59:41 itidus21, GBP is the currency with the most valuable primary unit IN THE WORLD 14:59:47 Ever since Malta joined the Euro 14:59:58 Hang on 15:00:01 rolebot? 15:00:01 stlang is a lot like glass. 15:00:08 that's mine. 15:00:08 -!- stlangbot has joined. 15:00:12 :) 15:00:16 stlangbot!? 15:00:25 mroman: stlang 2 2 4 + + \ 15:00:37 stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new \ 15:00:38 [mroman] None 15:00:45 i kid. i kid. 15:00:50 originally it was intended to facillitate playing tabletop games over IRC, but that quickly died out and now it's mostly a lambdabot clone with some stuff from 15:00:56 #esoteric bots that I wanted to use in other channels. 15:00:56 Nothing here 15:00:57 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:01:20 -!- stlangbot has joined. 15:01:22 stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new \ 15:01:23 [mroman] [] 15:01:25 ah 15:01:26 better. 15:01:30 stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new &bar \ 15:01:31 [mroman] [, 'Hello'] 15:01:36 mroman: what's the implemntation language? 15:01:41 Python ;) 15:01:47 There's loads of bots here 15:01:52 Malta sounds tasty.. like malt 15:01:57 Is clog a bot? 15:02:01 yes. 15:02:13 I don't know Glass. 15:02:32 mroman: it's another stack based OO esolang. 15:02:39 stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass class X eclass inherit X Foo M 'X new &bar \ 15:02:40 [mroman] [, 'Hello'] 15:02:42 Okay, there's clog, fungot, glogbot, HackEgo, half of myndzi, oonbotti, rolebot, stlangbot... 15:02:42 not functional though. 15:02:43 Taneb: the extra performance helped it find better paths down a tree of characters, treats all 01 chars as bits and prints out the message. 15:02:52 That's 7.5 bots! 15:02:59 > 63/7.5 15:03:00 8.4 15:03:05 stlangbot: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> @ efn 15:03:06 [mroman] [' 128.0'] 15:03:06 | 15:03:06 /< 15:03:18 Hehe 15:03:19 Mine is not really functional too. 15:03:20 > 63/7.5 15:03:22 8.4 15:03:26 But you can use lambda expressions 15:03:29 > 7.5/63 15:03:30 yeah. 8.4 percent of us are bots 15:03:30 0.11904761904761904 15:03:34 FINALLY GOT THAT RIGHT 15:03:43 We're Almost 12% bots 15:03:54 stlangbot: stlang M {'0 @} call \ 15:03:55 [mroman] [" '0'"] 15:03:55 !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]} 15:03:55 Hello World! 15:04:17 stlangbot: to do anything you have to instantiate a class. 15:04:17 [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't. 15:04:21 er mroman 15:04:24 mroman: what is the name and command prefix of your bot? 15:04:37 nortti: stlangbot 15:04:39 stlangbot: help 15:04:40 bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang) 15:04:40 bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 231; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000 15:05:03 kallisti: Stlang doesn't require that @instantiate objects. 15:05:07 `echo I am the official bot of #esoteric, and thou shall have no bot before me. 15:05:09 but you can ;) 15:05:09 I am the official bot of #esoteric, and thou shall have no bot before me. 15:05:14 nortti's bot loop addiction progresses in severity.. 15:05:21 :P no 15:05:32 With all these bots, there's got to be an awful botloop somewhere... 15:05:41 I can creare one bot botloop any time I want 15:05:42 stlangbot: stlang class A eclass class B eclass inherit A B inherit B A M 'A new @ B' new @ \ 15:05:43 [mroman] None 15:05:45 Currently, Malta's major resources are limestone, a favourable geographic location and a strong export market of washed up comedians. 15:05:52 stlangbot: stlang class A eclass class B eclass inherit A B inherit B A M 'A new @ 'B new @ \ 15:05:52 [mroman] [' ', ' '] 15:06:04 nortti, create one using four bots, one of them twice 15:06:10 hmm 15:06:26 Objects are very weird in Stlang 15:06:37 new instantiates the object on top of the stack 15:06:45 and if you use a function that is not in global scope 15:06:52 it checks if the top object on the stack is an object 15:06:55 !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_a)A!22(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]} 15:06:56 0 15:07:01 and looks in the objects scope if such a function exists. 15:07:21 !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_a)A!<2><2>(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]} 15:07:22 4 15:07:29 that's a "print 2 + 2" program 15:07:37 stlangbot: stlang class A fn A 0 \ eclass class B fn B 1 \ eclass M 'A new A \ 15:07:38 [mroman] [, 0.0, ] 15:07:39 you have to instantiate the arithmetic and output classes 15:08:07 and after every object call the object remains on top of the stack :D 15:08:26 kallisti: Can you define classes in Glass? 15:08:29 yes 15:08:34 with inheritance? 15:08:36 {M...} is the main class 15:08:40 don't believe so. 15:08:47 [m...] is the main method 15:09:01 for names that are larger than one character you have to enclose them in parens. 15:09:17 thus (_o) and (_a) 15:10:11 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ add \ 15:10:11 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:10:15 (_o)O! is "drop the variable _o on the stack, drop the variable O on the stack, instantiate an instance of O in the variable _o" 15:10:23 give or take arbitrarily, glass also supports multiple inheritance, virtual functions, templates, and operator overloading 15:10:35 which pops both values off the stack 15:10:48 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ add \ 15:10:49 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:10:50 itidus21: no it doesn't 15:11:11 you're not allowed to lie. 15:11:11 well you just have to take everything i said away 15:11:23 hence "give or take arbitrarily" 15:11:39 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 \ 15:11:40 [mroman] [, 2.0, 3.0] 15:11:45 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ \ 15:11:46 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:11:50 what the. 15:11:51 mroman: Glass is intended to be obnoxious and annoying, whereas I think you're actually going for usability with stlang. 15:12:00 ?? 15:12:35 or at least, I assume that's what Gregor had in mind. 15:12:50 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add \ 15:12:51 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:12:53 unless he really just loves extreme OO with postfix notation. 15:12:54 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that \ 15:12:55 [mroman] [2.0, 3.0, ] 15:12:59 im trying to point out it would be funny if glass did infact feature things c++ prides itself on 15:13:03 stlang seems kinda like underload. esoteric but usable stack based language 15:13:04 Glass is not intended to be a good language :) 15:13:07 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add $ \ 15:13:07 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:13:10 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add \ 15:13:11 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:13:23 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that add \ 15:13:24 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:13:36 Gregor: it has struck a chord in my heartplaces for some reason. :> 15:13:45 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that add \ 15:13:46 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:13:52 i like the human quality of stlang's interpreter feedback 15:14:16 mroman: no efn 15:14:18 it looks like 15:14:27 a single \ is efn 15:14:31 ah 15:14:40 I thought that was print to stdout 15:14:40 the problem is add 15:14:45 based on the earlier 2 + 2 code 15:14:45 @ is print to stdout 15:14:51 M is 'fn main' 15:15:01 right, so anything returned by main is printed 15:15:02 got it. 15:15:03 M \ is fn main efn 15:15:12 stlangbot returns the stack. 15:15:34 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new that add \ 15:15:35 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:15:43 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new add \ 15:15:44 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:15:47 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 \ 15:15:47 [kallisti] [2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0] 15:15:56 ewwwwww Python 15:16:05 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn foo 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new foo \ 15:16:06 [mroman] [, 5.0, ] 15:16:16 mroman: your stlang output has a Python smell. :P 15:16:19 stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn foo $ + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that foo $ \ 15:16:20 [mroman] [5.0] 15:16:23 ha! 15:16:27 it worked. 15:16:34 apparently add is already defined in the global scope. 15:16:44 ...yes? 15:16:49 it's a synonym for + I thought 15:16:57 + is a synonym for + 15:17:00 eh 15:17:04 + is a synonym for add. 15:17:33 And different functions have different synonyms based on context. 15:17:42 In golfing mode the synonyms are different :) 15:17:43 like 15:17:51 stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 / \ 15:17:51 [mroman] [1.6666666666666667] 15:17:53 mroman: you should add perl-like contexts into this language somehow 15:17:54 for great fun 15:17:56 stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 .// \ 15:17:57 [mroman] [1.6666666666666667] 15:18:17 stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 .///v \ 15:18:18 [mroman] [1.2909944487358056] 15:18:21 vs 15:18:26 stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 / /v \ 15:18:27 [mroman] [1.2909944487358056] 15:18:35 . enters the golfing mode 15:18:47 which allows to chain function without whitespace 15:19:10 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; [.] \ 15:19:11 [mroman] ['H;e;l;l;o;'] 15:19:32 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l \ 15:19:33 [mroman] [10] 15:19:56 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l=! \ 15:19:56 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:20:14 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(f \ 15:20:14 [mroman] [10.0] 15:20:18 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(i \ 15:20:19 [mroman] [10] 15:20:21 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(s \ 15:20:21 [mroman] ['10'] 15:20:55 stlangbot: stlang M {zZ}'Hello m \ 15:20:56 [mroman] ['HELLO'] 15:21:01 what is ? 15:21:16 it's an if 15:21:52 why is there an if in the pattern matching example 15:22:06 oh 15:22:10 '?' is an if 15:22:12 ?1 is true 15:22:13 Maybe you meant: . ? @ v 15:22:19 oh okay 15:22:30 how would I match anything? 15:22:30 stlangbot: stlang M ?1 \ 15:22:30 [mroman] [True] 15:22:33 just define a regular function? 15:22:56 You can't match 'anything' 15:23:27 so there's no "match 0, match everything else" pattern matching? 15:23:35 stlangbot: fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M [] @ \ 15:23:36 [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't. 15:23:42 stlangbot: stlang fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M [] @ \ 15:23:43 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:23:53 right 15:23:57 stlangbot: stlang fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn 15:23:57 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:24:05 so you can match everything else by having a function without a : thingy 15:24:11 kallisti: yes. 15:24:16 which is what I meant 15:24:19 stlangbot: stlang fn empty:0 ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M 0 @ \ 15:24:20 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:24:26 but I'm not sure about the syntax right now :) 15:24:39 stlangbot: stlang fn empty:0#NL# ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M 0 @ \ 15:24:40 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:25:09 mroman: stack is global right? 15:25:23 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:25:30 stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn fn isZero ?0 efn M 0 @ \ 15:25:30 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:25:37 kallisti: Yes. 15:25:44 Stack is global. 15:25:55 stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 M 0 @ \ 15:25:56 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:26:02 stlangbot: stlang fn isZero ?1 efn M 0 @ \ 15:26:03 [mroman] [' 0.0'] 15:26:06 stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn M 0 @ \ 15:26:06 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:26:15 it might be that pattern matching requires a newline 15:26:23 stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0#NL# ?1 efn M 0 @ \ 15:26:24 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:27:10 stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn M 0 @ \ 15:27:10 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:27:11 ah no 15:27:17 you need to define the one without pattern first. 15:27:32 stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M [] \ 15:27:33 [mroman] [[]] 15:27:41 stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M [] empty \ 15:27:42 [mroman] [[], True] 15:27:45 mromanb: stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ 15:27:48 stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M 'a empty \ 15:27:48 [mroman] ['a', False] 15:28:00 stlangbot: stlang stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ 15:28:01 [mroman] Your program sucks! 15:28:03 stlangbot: stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ 15:28:03 [kallisti] Your program sucks! 15:28:10 kallisti: You need to define fib first. 15:28:21 fn foo:0 efn fn foo efn is illegal 15:28:25 weird 15:28:28 fn foo efn fn foo:0 efn is legal. 15:28:33 YOU MEAN TO SAY THIS IS NOT HASKELL? 15:29:15 stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ fn fib:0 0 \ M 5 fib \ 15:29:38 [kallisti] Your program sucks! 15:30:04 ah I see 15:30:13 I'm not sure how to do that recursively with a global stack 15:31:14 mroman: how do I push elements onto the stack by index? 15:31:31 kallisti: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang#Others 15:31:35 there is a fib version ;) 15:31:48 NOPE 15:31:49 CHEATING 15:31:50 and I have to go now, sorry. 15:32:02 kallisti: There is a function 'top' 15:32:06 which lets you do that. 15:33:30 stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1 1 \ fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ 15:33:30 [kallisti] Your program sucks! 15:34:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:34:56 stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1.0 1 \ fib:0.0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ 15:34:57 [kallisti] Your program sucks! 15:35:02 stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1.0 1 \ fib:0.0 0 \ fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ 15:35:02 [kallisti] Your program sucks! 15:36:06 the " is unexplained in the docs 15:43:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:43:35 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 15:44:10 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:48:02 -!- ais523 has quit. 15:48:18 Possibility is a monad, definition is a comonad 15:49:31 Disjunction is a monad, conjunction is a comonad 15:50:44 all things are one under the cofree monad free comonad in outer space. 15:52:52 Has kallisti turned off that URL title spewer? 15:52:59 http://example.com 15:53:00 IANA — Example domains 15:53:35 kallisti, please turn that off. 15:55:21 google.com 15:55:28 http://google.com 15:55:34 :? 15:56:04 Doesn't work with Google. 15:56:15 Unfortunately, it does work with most other things. 15:56:38 http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric 15:56:40 Taneb's Esolang Page! 16:13:46 http://facebook.com/ 16:14:01 http://example.com 16:14:47 IANA — Example domains 16:15:10 kallisti, seriously, turn that off, it's useless and annoying. 16:15:36 Note to self: when introducing others to the joy of the collatz conjecture, don't start with 27 16:15:58 I'm in the process of making it less annoying 16:16:08 How. 16:16:08 and more useful. 16:16:13 Again, how. 16:16:23 well, before it would check each word in the title and see if it's already in the URL. if they're all in the URL, it ignores it. 16:16:27 now I've added a list of stop words. 16:16:29 that it also ignores 16:17:02 Nope, that's still annoying and not very useful. 16:17:02 http://purdue.edu/ 16:17:03 Purdue University 16:17:09 lol 16:17:33 http://weirdfetishisticporn.com/ 16:17:39 ... 16:17:40 :( 16:17:44 I must now click 16:17:49 RESIST 16:18:08 http://mylittleclopfic.com/ 16:18:21 Damn it rolebot, work with me here. 16:21:03 http://facebook/ 16:21:07 http://facebook.com/ 16:21:16 it blocks facebook now because all of the other title stuff is just garbage. 16:21:22 http://youtube.com/ 16:21:30 http://127.0.0.1/ 16:21:34 also it's really slow. 16:21:36 now 16:21:38 lol 16:21:47 hurray perl 16:21:54 Yay, for a while you can pretend it's turned off. 16:22:09 YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. 16:22:13 >_> 16:22:21 however, youtube has "broadcast" 16:22:25 which is NEW INFORMATION YOU DID NOT PREVIOUSLY KNOW 16:22:53 Oh, so it helpfully filters out any titles which are *identical* to the URL? 16:22:56 THAT IS FAR BETTER 16:23:21 it also ignores the stop words. which I got from here http://www.webconfs.com/stop-words.php/ 16:23:25 http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+build+a+bomb+terrorism+allah+akhbar+all+glory+to+osama+hello+fbi 16:23:47 I have no idea why it's taking so long to traverse the stop word list... 16:23:54 it's not very big 16:24:19 It doesn't want to be a part of this idiocy. 16:25:31 * kallisti likes to see whether he should click on something or not. 16:25:50 by having one program do it instead of all of our browsers 16:25:53 we are actually saving the environment 16:25:57 by using less energy. 16:26:14 And so you think that making a bot to announce the page title in the channel whenever anyone posts a URL is going to help? 16:26:25 the environment? of course. 16:26:32 anyone who disagrees does not care about mother earth. 16:26:42 Is going to be anything but a waste of time? 16:27:06 well, I'm not /making/ it 16:27:09 it's already made, after all. 16:27:29 Phantom_Hoover: You realize that this is an EXTREMELY common bot feature and there's a bot that does this in most large channels? 16:27:41 Well, perhaps not "most" 16:27:44 oh duh I should use a hash table. 16:27:45 But "many" 16:27:47 instead of an array 16:28:21 * kallisti am good with computer. 16:28:21 Gregor, sure, but it's annoying. 16:28:41 Now, this could get annoying: http://codu.org/music/#\o/ 16:28:41 | 16:28:41 |\ 16:28:42 Codu - Gregor's Music 16:28:45 lol 16:29:18 `echo I SHALL CREATE CHAOS http://codu.org/music#\o/ 16:29:18 | 16:29:18 >\ 16:29:19 Codu - Gregor's Music 16:29:20 I SHALL CREATE CHAOS http://codu.org/music#\o/ 16:29:21 | 16:29:21 /< 16:29:21 Codu - Gregor's Music 16:29:36 `load Url 16:29:38 $load Url 16:29:38 Url failed to load. 16:29:39 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found 16:29:41 Gregor, you don't have Superturing on that page or your WiPs :( 16:29:44 http://codu.org/music 16:29:52 possessives: handled 16:30:00 kallisti: ... why is "Gregor" filtered? 16:30:10 Phantom_Hoover: Superturing is linked in "electronic music", and there are no current WIPPs. 16:30:15 Gregor: oh, this is a good question. 16:30:34 yes!!!! 16:30:37 probably because of a bug in the code I just added. 16:30:39 yep. 16:30:46 `load Url 16:30:48 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found 16:30:51 A bug named Gregor. 16:30:52 qeiorhwiurthiouwerhiuerhtiuwreutiherh 16:30:55 $load Url 16:30:55 GET IT? 16:30:55 Url failed to load. 16:30:57 GET IT? 16:31:02 no 16:31:03 yes 16:31:12 KAFKA JOKE??? 16:31:27 wot 16:32:22 over time I will gradually accumulate a list of every annoying word in HTML titles ever. 16:32:31 a valuable resource. 16:33:46 I can build that list for you easily: 16:33:49 [^ ]+ 16:34:04 what would probably be a better approach 16:34:07 is to just whitelist domains. 16:34:15 because it's mostly useful for youtube and URL shorteners 16:34:22 and things like that 16:36:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:51:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: AWAY). 16:58:28 Gregor: having used this URL thing for a while, I've found a large portion of HTML titles contain all of the information their URLs do. 16:58:31 and nothing more 17:37:48 -!- augur has joined. 17:56:55 Um, wow. 17:57:03 Just discovered that Purdue lets you specify an alternate email address. 17:57:08 I was gkrichar@, which is shit. 17:57:11 Now I'm gr@. 17:57:15 That's... pretty awesome. 18:04:12 you should've added some more r's, grrrr 18:04:29 and gkr is almost gkar 18:05:26 gregor@ was reserved, which is tragic since that's actually better than gr@. 18:06:12 How about just greg@? 18:09:21 Considering that I get snotty every time somebody calls me 'Greg', that sounds like a bad idea. 18:11:02 hi Greg 18:15:41 g-man@. 18:17:08 fizzie: Good– morning, Mr. Freeman, wake up and– smell the SCIENCE! 18:42:53 can someone explain to me how I set up qemu so that the quest netbsd machine can connect to my lan? 18:48:33 gooling for "quest netbsd machine" yields nothing that seems relevant. 18:48:39 *googling 18:50:20 yeah. problem is that I can't get qemu to create simulated network card that is connected to my lan 18:51:46 you would need to know the name of the virtual network device thingy that qemu needs 18:51:53 Define "connect to"? Is there a reason it needs an actual IP address on the LAN? 18:53:53 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:53:54 if you're doing user-mode networking you'd also want to do some iptables hacks so that it can listen on privileged ports. 18:54:16 I think you'd have to use -net tap and then convince the Tun/Tap layer to act as a hub. 18:54:33 But more to the point, I find the situation where this is actually useful to be unlikely. 18:59:44 I think you can set up ethernet bridges with the right config 18:59:49 (essentially, set your network card to promiscuous and send data from several mac addresses corresponding to your real and virtual system) 19:00:08 it's not supposed to be hard and as I understand it is fairly common 19:02:59 nortti: tl;dr: configure your system to do that and it will do it 19:05:23 -!- shachaf has joined. 19:20:38 kallisti: No success with fib? 19:21:23 stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \ 19:21:24 [mroman] [5.0] 19:21:43 stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 8 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \ 19:21:44 [mroman] [21.0] 19:21:49 stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 9 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \ 19:21:49 [mroman] [34.0] 19:21:54 stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 7 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \ 19:21:55 [mroman] [13.0] 19:22:04 kallisti: I suspect you wanted this ;) 19:22:57 17:36 < kallisti> the " is unexplained in the docs 19:23:16 A lot of stuff is not documented right now :) 19:23:29 and " is not a function. 19:25:40 " is replaced with the name of the function it appears in. 19:26:41 Gregor: by "connect to" I meant that it can send data trought my lan 19:27:07 ++ is duplicate. And <+ is also duplicate 19:27:21 ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + is the same as using golfing mode 19:27:26 .<+1-"<>2-"+ 19:27:28 nortti: Even usermode networking accomplishes that. If you don't need it to have a LAN IP, don't overcomplicate things. 19:27:44 ++ does not work in golfing mode. 19:28:50 stlangbot: stlang M 'Zz 'Hello m \ 19:28:51 [mroman] [] 19:29:02 stlangbot: stlang M 'zZ 'Hello m \ 19:29:02 [mroman] [] 19:29:07 stlangbot: stlang M {zZ} 'Hello m \ 19:29:08 [mroman] ['HELLO'] 19:29:26 stlangbot: stlang M{Zz}'Hello m \ 19:29:26 [mroman] ['hello'] 19:29:40 stlangbot: stlang M{Z?}'Hello m \ 19:29:41 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:29:59 stlangbot: stlang M 'H Z? \ 19:30:00 [mroman] [True] 19:30:03 stlangbot: stlang M 'Ha Z? \ 19:30:03 [mroman] [False] 19:30:20 stlangbot: stlang M {Z?} 'Hello m \ 19:30:20 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:30:56 stlangbot: stlang M {Z?} 'Hello m @ \ 19:30:56 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:31:04 that is interesting. 19:31:41 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello zZZz @ \ 19:31:42 [mroman] [" 'hELLO'"] 19:31:47 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello zZZz \ 19:31:48 [mroman] ['hELLO'] 19:33:25 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:33:46 Hello 19:34:02 stlangbot: stlang M {Z? (s)} 'Hello m @ \ 19:34:02 [mroman] [" 'TrueFalseFalseFalseFalse'"] 19:34:10 Ah. 19:34:25 That was my ugly workaround because python can't treat strings as lists :) 19:34:38 well... the workaround sucks. I can see that now. 19:35:47 at least for map it sucks. 19:35:57 It can concatenate booleans of course. 19:36:00 *can't 19:36:31 stlangbot: stlang M {Z?} 'Hello,World! partition \ 19:36:32 [mroman] [('HW', 'ello,orld!')] 19:37:35 stlangbot: stlang M {add} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition zipWith \ 19:37:36 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:37:50 -!- VorpalPhone has joined. 19:38:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:38:51 I should add a function 'unpairWith' :) 19:39:42 > let unpairWith f (a,b) = f a b in unpairWith (++) ('HW','ello,orld!') 19:39:43 : 19:39:43 lexical error in string/character literal at chara... 19:39:51 > let unpairWith f (a,b) = f a b in unpairWith (++) ("HW","ello,orld!") 19:39:54 "HWello,orld!" 19:40:35 stlangbot: die 19:40:36 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 19:40:47 :t curry 19:40:49 forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c 19:40:52 *cough* 19:41:01 or wait 19:41:03 uncurry 19:41:04 :t uncurry 19:41:06 forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c 19:41:09 What does stlangbot do? 19:41:16 stlangbot: help 19:41:25 VorpalPhone: Evaluating stlang expressions ;) 19:41:27 Not that, evidently 19:41:42 Taneb: I told him "die" 1 minute ago ;) 19:41:43 Or what did it do rather? 19:41:46 To fix the map problem. 19:41:58 Aww 19:41:59 :( 19:42:53 mroman: ^ 19:43:20 Which language is stlang? 19:43:24 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:43:26 VorpalPhone: Stlang is stlang. 19:43:47 stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add \ 19:43:48 [mroman] ['HWello,orld!'] 19:43:51 hehe :) 19:43:59 Do you have a link to the wiki for it? 19:44:06 VorpalPhone: esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang 19:44:12 VorpalPhone: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang 19:44:19 damn firefox hiding http:// :( 19:44:39 stlangbot: stlang M {Z?}'Hello m \ 19:44:39 [mroman] [[True, False, False, False, False]] 19:44:39 Hmm 19:44:43 Ah, there we go. 19:44:57 Thanks 19:44:58 mroman: yeah. it can be changed from about:config 19:45:42 VorpalPhone: It's a stack based language that also supports OOP. 19:45:53 Ah 19:45:56 To support its possible usage in golf every function has aliases. 19:46:00 like Z? for isupper 19:46:07 Brb on computer 19:46:40 hi 19:46:55 damn firefox hiding http:// :( <-- can be fixed in about:config 19:47:02 trying to remember which setting it was 19:47:29 stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} dup 'Hello,World!' partition add map efn 19:47:30 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:47:45 stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} dup 'Hello,World!' partition add efn 19:47:46 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:47:56 nope, not finding it 19:47:57 I should add error reporting :D 19:48:12 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:48:21 stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} \ 19:48:21 [mroman] ['67AD501B84CE923F'] 19:48:26 stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} dup \ 19:48:26 [mroman] ['FB72A30G6589DC1E', 'FB72A30G6589DC1E'] 19:48:31 so, that should actually work. 19:48:47 The spirit of Stlang is to implement lots of features in very weird and esoteric ways no other language or sane person would implement them with. <-- e.g. Intercal, malbolge? 19:48:51 stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add \ 19:48:52 [mroman] ['HWello,orld!'] 19:49:27 stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add \ 19:49:27 [mroman] ['E0BF71C9D4G382A5', 'HWello,orld!'] 19:49:34 stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add map \ 19:49:34 [mroman] [[True, True, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False]] 19:49:44 stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add map explode \ 19:49:44 [mroman] [True, True, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False] 19:49:48 mroman, hm how high level is this language? Are we talking befunge level? 19:49:57 Vorpal: befunge is high level? 19:50:01 https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/602626_10151008148768433_672469651_n.jpg 19:50:07 mroman, in some respects yes 19:50:23 Well, then stlang is high-high-high-high level. 19:50:35 mroman, it is fairly easy to write things that would be painful in a turing tarpit in befunge 19:50:49 mroman, okay how easy would it be to write fungot in stlang? 19:50:50 Vorpal: well i just fnord the whole r5rs. it'll have the procs that manage the indicies. 19:51:08 What's fungot? 19:51:09 mroman: but in my case is much larger, there are three other fnord accumulators besides listing: listing-reverse, appending, ' ' 19:51:10 mroman, note that fungot uses SOCK for sockets directly in befunge, using netcat is allowed if you need it 19:51:11 Vorpal: there are only four sizes though.) exercise 1.3 says if we feed herrings hotdogs they might come in handy when i find a value in a list 19:51:14 mroman, that but 19:51:15 bot 19:51:17 ^source 19:51:18 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 19:51:25 there, befunge-98 code for fungot 19:51:26 Vorpal: the scheme48 vm is written in 19:51:41 Stlang is a very high level language. Except it has only a stack. 19:51:44 But besides that. 19:51:55 It has OOP, it has pattern matching, it has anonymous functions 19:51:57 mroman, fizzie wrote it. And at least previously it has been running on my befunge implementation 19:52:21 it has functions like tail, head, last, reverse, zipWith, map, reduce, until, takeWhile, dropWhile 19:52:25 and many more. 19:52:36 It probably has almost every function haskells prelude has. 19:52:52 mroman, what makes it esoteric then? 19:53:17 Its implemented in a way nobody would :) 19:53:22 okay 19:53:29 Well 19:53:37 The term "esoteric language" is not very precise. 19:54:05 If you compare stlang to brainfuck or befunge it's not very esoteric. 19:54:18 It's a fully featured programming language, except it uses a stack instead of variables. 19:54:43 and postfix notation. 19:55:13 backwards stackell 19:55:22 stlangbot: stlang fn main {1000 gt} {2 mul} 2 until show efn 19:55:22 [mroman] [' 1024.0'] 19:55:47 stlangbot: stlang class Foo fn bar 1337 efn eclass fn main 'Foo new bar efn 19:55:47 [mroman] [, 1337.0, ] 19:55:57 ^- That's how high level it is. 19:57:17 stlangbot: stlang fn main 'Hello rot efn 19:57:17 [mroman] Your program sucks! 19:57:22 come on :( 19:57:36 stlangbot: stlang fn main 'Hello expode implode rot efn 19:57:36 [mroman] None 19:58:13 Ah, that's the 'strings are not lists in python' bug again. 19:58:58 stlangbot: stlang M {isDigit} '123abcd takeWhile \ 19:58:59 [mroman] ['123'] 19:59:16 stlangbot: stlang M {isDigit} '123abcd dropWhile \ 19:59:16 [mroman] ['abcd'] 19:59:18 mroman: sure it's not just you misspelling explode? 19:59:47 oerjan: yes, but explode implode is just a hack because. 19:59:50 rot only works with lists. 19:59:56 and python does not consider string to be lists. 20:00:03 so I convert a string with explode implode to a list 20:00:12 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello \ 20:00:12 [mroman] ['Hello'] 20:00:14 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode \ 20:00:15 [mroman] ['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o'] 20:00:18 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode implode \ 20:00:18 [mroman] [['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o']] 20:00:21 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode implode rot \ 20:00:21 [mroman] [['e', 'l', 'l', 'o', 'H']] 20:00:24 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode implode rot concat \ 20:00:24 [mroman] ['elloH'] 20:02:16 stlangbot: stlang M 'l 'Hello explode implode rot concat reverse split \ 20:02:16 [mroman] None 20:02:37 ^- explode and implode mess up the whole stack :) 20:02:48 implode converts the whole stack to a list. 20:02:59 and explode pushes every element of a list to the stack 20:03:08 stlangbot: stlangbot M 2 2 \ 20:03:09 [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't. 20:03:12 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 \ 20:03:12 [mroman] [2.0, 2.0] 20:03:14 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 + \ 20:03:14 [mroman] [4.0] 20:03:18 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode \ 20:03:18 [mroman] [[2.0, 2.0]] 20:03:22 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode explode \ 20:03:22 [mroman] [2.0, 2.0] 20:03:24 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode explode +\ 20:03:24 [mroman] Your program sucks! 20:03:26 stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode explode + \ 20:03:27 [mroman] [4.0] 20:03:30 stlangbot: stlang 1 1 + 20:03:31 [Taneb] None 20:03:35 :( 20:03:40 Taneb: You need a main function. 20:03:49 stlangbot: stlang fn main 1 1 + efn 20:03:49 [mroman] [2.0] 20:03:57 M is short for 'fn main' and \ is short for '\' 20:04:05 and \o/ is short for 'main' 20:04:06 | 20:04:06 /< 20:04:11 mroman: you just need a function to run a function with a given list as the stack 20:04:35 then explode and implode become useable 20:05:29 i suppose there's nothing preventing you from using implode to _define_ that 20:05:40 |o| is also short for 'fn main' 20:05:41 | 20:05:41 |\ 20:05:59 /o\ duplicates an instruction 20:05:59 | 20:05:59 |\ 20:06:05 stlangbot: stlang fn main 2 /o\ + efn 20:06:05 [mroman] Your program sucks! 20:06:06 | 20:06:06 /< 20:06:08 or so 20:06:15 not sure about that. 20:06:46 " is replaced with the name of the function it appears in. 20:06:48 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:07:00 ` apparentely is @" 20:07:03 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 20:07:11 hm. 20:08:24 stlangbot: setnote fix Fix rot for strings. 20:08:25 Syntax error! 20:08:30 stlangbot: setnote|fix Fix rot for strings. 20:08:30 [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't. 20:08:36 ah shutup. 20:08:59 stlangbot: setnote|fix Fix rot for strings. 20:09:00 [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't. 20:09:28 stlangbot: setnote fix|Fix rot for strings. 20:09:29 [mroman]Saved as fix! 20:09:38 stlangbot: die 20:09:38 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 20:11:38 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 20:15:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:03:55 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:10:28 I probably should write a complete documentation about Stlang. 21:10:38 Or else I will forget everything and that would suck :( 21:13:24 How to initialize a git repository for repo.or.cz? I forgot 21:18:15 I got the error message "fatal: 'origin' does not appear to be a git repository" and "fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly" 21:19:42 does anyone of you know any good pascal tutorials. I just got pascal compiler working on twenex 21:23:10 * oerjan has long since forgotten where he learned pascal 21:23:31 but then it _was_ > 20 years ago 21:24:58 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 21:27:25 oerjan knows pascal? 21:28:03 whatever i haven't forgotten 21:29:16 turbo pascal was used in the first programming class in university. i think i'd read about it before though, i am not sure if my dad's computer had a compiler before that. 21:33:19 did you know that you can get old turbo pascals for free legaly 21:33:33 i recall original pascal was very strict about the order in which things were declared 21:33:36 * shachaf uses turbo Haskell these days. 21:33:46 :P 21:34:12 is it very fast Haskell compiler for cp/m and dos? 21:34:27 It's a very-fast-Haskell compiler. 21:34:33 It compiles fast Haskell code, but very slowly. 21:36:08 drive webcomic is still not out of hiatus :( 21:42:38 What does it mean by "'origin' does not appear to be a git repository" and how does it fixed? 21:44:19 nortti: either your browser or your external editor is broken for editing wiki articles :P 21:44:36 (i fixed it already) 21:44:42 what do you mean? 21:44:54 nortti: look at the diff for your Talk:Underload edit 21:45:04 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Underload&curid=2034&diff=33072&oldid=32783 21:46:28 ugh. I'll try to fix character encoding 21:46:41 +before I edit again 21:47:09 yeah. it was set as latin-1 21:52:01 I fixed it 21:53:16 http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git 21:53:18 Public Git Hosting - ITMCK.git/summary 21:56:00 nortti: what is [(x)-A(x)B] = [(x)-A}:{B] supposed to mean 21:59:03 (x) is replaced with closing curly brace, duplicate operator and opening curly brace 22:00:08 in that case i think the "When (x) is not between { and }" must be wrong 22:00:24 actually no 22:00:52 wel yes if you count [ and ] as { and } 22:01:10 wat 22:01:26 [(x)-(x)(foo)] 22:01:38 [(x)-}:{(foo)] 22:01:50 [(x)-}:{(foo)(x)]! 22:02:03 don't we have a site for hosting esolangs? 22:02:09 {}:{(foo)}! 22:02:17 (foo) 22:02:24 kallisti: the file archive 22:02:54 the most be a complete waste of time, but I could probably set up my dedicated server for esolang repos. 22:03:02 s/the most/this might/ 22:03:28 once I get it. 22:03:32 * kallisti is waiting for his order to complete. 22:04:15 * oerjan adds all infima and suprema to kallisti's order 22:04:21 :| 22:04:42 my order isn't total yet. 22:05:12 picky 22:08:07 but yes, I can donate my server for whatever purpose might be beneficial. it's primarily high storage at 1 TB, with low RAM/CPU. 22:08:18 so it would be good for mirrors/backups. 22:12:36 http://eris.net/ I wonder if I can get this hostname.. 22:12:37 Eris Networking 22:12:54 http://127.0.0.1/ 22:13:34 www.gmail.com 22:13:35 Gmail: Email from Google 22:16:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:16:14 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 22:16:57 `words 50 22:17:05 cuta bould pouerer gauzune frescard stubaliz xvii sphota audie vanan comver rec corbe walte intam figla redt hfnker bilinter telbe habi ana selsey vity pedt 22:17:35 approximately 35% of those would make decent hostnames. 22:17:48 Who's rolebot? 22:18:07 that's mine. 22:18:38 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:18:59 rolebot: Hmm? 22:19:10 it avoids repeating redundant titles. 22:19:31 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:19:32 blah blah blah blah 22:19:57 zzo38: git remote add origin? 22:20:04 mroman: Yes I fixed it now 22:20:06 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:20:06 ACTIONblah blah bah blah 22:20:18 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:20:18 * rolebot blah blah bah blah 22:20:56 er, how does that work? 22:21:31 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:21:45 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:21:57 ? 22:21:59 http://http.http.org.org/ 22:22:06 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:22:12 Oh. 22:22:14 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:22:14 * rolebot blah blah bah blah 22:22:27 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:22:28 ACTION blah blah bah blah hi 22:22:32 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:32 `echo http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:35 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:36 `echo http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:39 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:40 `echo http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:42 * oerjan claps 22:22:43 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html 22:22:43 kallisti: /me just sends normal message starting with ^AACTION 22:22:43 Stopped. 22:22:46 `ignore HackEgo 22:22:49 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 22:22:52 * kallisti thought he already did that. 22:23:06 $ignore HackEgo 22:23:06 Done. 22:23:10 $ignore 22:23:10 Usage: ignore [ ...] -- ignores the specified nicks | Ignored nicks: 22:23:14 oh... 22:23:34 $ignore 22:23:35 Insufficient privileges. 22:23:50 @where haskell 22:23:50 http://haskell.org 22:23:52 Haskell - HaskellWiki 22:24:04 @where @where 22:24:05 @where @where 22:24:11 oerjan: No, use ? 22:24:13 ?where ?where 22:24:13 ?where ?where 22:24:29 `ignore HackEgo EgoBot 22:24:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 22:24:35 $ignore HackEgo EgoBot 22:24:35 Done. 22:24:36 `ignore 22:24:39 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 22:24:45 werjoiwjtehiuoweriuwreutiwher 22:24:48 the old prefix was ` 22:24:56 $ignore 22:24:57 Usage: ignore [ ...] -- ignores the specified nicks | Ignored nicks: 22:25:02 that's... peculiar 22:25:13 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:25:14 TIME blah 22:25:21 I'm still confused as to how that works. 22:25:28 Confused as to how what works? 22:25:43 it should be sending a PRIVMSG 22:25:48 It is. 22:25:50 It is sending a PRIVMSG 22:25:59 oh... okay. 22:26:23 mystery solved 22:26:28 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:26:29 TIME 22:26:35 rolebot: Stop it. :-( 22:26:42 `ignore shachaf 22:26:45 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 22:26:46 lol 22:27:01 @where hi 22:27:01 I know nothing about hi. 22:27:25 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:27:25 * rolebot will never stop! 22:27:28 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:27:37 oh 22:27:38 oops 22:27:40 rest peacefully, rolebot 22:27:41 "stopped" 22:27:54 I killed screen instead of detaching 22:27:54 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:28:07 Is the source to rolebot online? 22:28:11 not currently 22:28:19 I'll put it on github one day. 22:28:24 Today? 22:28:28 no. 22:29:09 I need to rid it of some things that don't make much sense. 22:29:22 particularly a global config module 22:29:48 Bring him back up. :-( 22:29:54 okay. 22:30:10 -!- rolebot has joined. 22:30:32 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:30:32 * rolebot doesn't really know how IRC works. :-( \020? Phooey. 22:31:33 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:31:39 ACTION blah 22:31:49 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:32:05 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:32:05 * rolebot hi b c blah 22:32:23 it's almost as though it's been stress tested on other IRC channels. 22:32:35 but not quite 22:32:53 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:32:53 * rolebot abc 22:33:04 kallisti: Oh, I thought it was brand new. 22:33:19 no. it just has no reason to be here. 22:33:24 http://slbkbs.org/hi.html 22:33:24 * rolebot was born yesterday 22:33:49 nortti mentioned having a sandbox for old unix boxes, and so I offered it as a potential candidate. 22:34:05 aAnyway you should put the code up. 22:34:10 it'll happen 22:34:20 just not TODAY IMMEDIATELY 22:34:30 I was going to do that while setting up my server-to-be 22:34:32 You should put it up TODAY IMMEDIATELY 22:34:49 also I'm about to change some things 22:35:02 Good! So you should put it up so we can see the changes. 22:35:05 okay. 22:35:07 $hello 22:35:07 Perhaps you meant: tell help 22:35:10 $help 22:35:11 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 22:35:17 Are you using your browser to fetch titles? 22:35:22 no I'm using perl. 22:35:25 and regex. 22:35:27 $help rp 22:35:27 rp commands: roll, system 22:35:30 what's this 22:35:31 So why is your useragent Safari? 22:35:33 Liar. :-( 22:35:36 $roll 22:35:36 Usage: roll [] 22:35:39 $roll 500 22:35:39 Invalid dice count 22:35:41 $roll 5000 22:35:42 Invalid dice count 22:35:44 $roll 500000 22:35:44 Invalid dice count 22:35:46 monqy: it was originally going to be a diceroller for tabletop systems 22:35:47 * shachaf sighs. 22:35:50 too much dice, shachaf 22:35:51 too much dice 22:35:54 but then it just became a lambdabot clone 22:36:00 $roll 12 22:36:00 7 successes (5 10 7 7 4 6 3 3 3 7 2 7 9) 22:36:02 $roll 12 5000 22:36:02 Invalid difficulty 22:36:05 $roll 12 50000 22:36:05 Invalid difficulty 22:36:06 $roll 12 5000000000 22:36:06 Invalid difficulty 22:36:09 * shachaf sighs. 22:36:11 try like... 22:36:14 reasonable numbers 22:36:24 I tried a reasonable number! 22:36:25 $system 22:36:25 Dice systems: owod, shadowrun 22:36:27 It didn't like it. 22:36:32 So I made it even more reasonable! 22:36:32 shadowrun system is incomplete 22:36:36 $roll 12 2 22:36:36 12 successes (6 7 4 3 3 9 4 9 7 5 8 3) 22:36:37 $roll 12 0 22:36:38 Invalid difficulty 22:36:40 $roll 12 1 22:36:40 Invalid difficulty 22:36:43 $roll 12 4 22:36:43 5 successes (5 6 3 1 5 7 3 10 3 1 7 2 8) 22:36:46 $roll 12 12 22:36:46 Invalid difficulty 22:36:47 $roll 12 11 22:36:47 Invalid difficulty 22:36:50 $roll 12 10 22:36:50 -1 successes (4 6 9 1 6 1 6 6 3 4 8 7) 22:36:52 it's a d10 system 22:36:57 -1 successes, eh? 22:37:00 yes 22:37:02 $help 22:37:02 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 22:37:03 that's not very many successes 22:37:08 that's a "botch" 22:37:09 $echo hi monqy 22:37:09 hi monqy 22:37:14 ~help messages 22:37:14 Displays all of your unread messages and then deletes them. Messages are received securely and privately. Both parties must be registered with services. 22:37:15 it's like rolling 1 in dnd 22:37:51 monqy: more lambdabot clonage 22:37:56 except I made it more secure. 22:38:00 $tell monqy hi monqy 22:38:00 can rolebot do haskel 22:38:00 Done. 22:38:01 monqy: You have 1 message. Type ~messages to read it. 22:38:03 yes 22:38:11 $tell shachaf hi 22:38:12 Tell yourself. 22:38:16 $tell rolebot what? 22:38:17 Cool! 22:38:22 $ask rolebot hi 22:38:27 it's turned off though because the syntax is the same as lambdabot 22:38:35 > 1 22:38:36 1 22:38:41 also ignore isn't working for some reason 22:38:43 ~messages 22:38:43 monqy: See PM. 22:38:45 which is bad 22:38:56 rolebot: no fun 22:39:05 $ignore kallisti 22:39:06 Insufficient privileges. 22:39:08 : o 22:39:12 -!- kallisti has changed nick to notkallisti. 22:39:14 $admin + monqy 22:39:14 Usage: admin (list|add|delete) [ ...] -- admin manager command 22:39:19 $admin add monqy 22:39:20 Insufficient privileges 22:39:23 $admin add shachaf 22:39:23 Insufficient privileges 22:39:25 $admin add m 22:39:26 Insufficient privileges 22:39:29 $admin list 22:39:30 Admins: kallisti 22:39:40 $admin add notkallisti 22:39:40 Insufficient privileges 22:39:43 $admin add norkallisti 22:39:43 Insufficient privileges 22:39:55 monqy: admin add shachaf 22:39:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:40:02 shachaf: "no can do" 22:40:16 monqy: admin + shachaf 22:40:29 monqy: tell shachaf hi monqy \ 22:40:48 notkallisti: you have 1 unread messages. thanks. 22:41:00 -!- notkallisti has changed nick to kallisti. 22:41:09 monqy: do i have a 1 unread messages 22:41:11 no 22:41:18 $unload Admin 22:41:18 Done. 22:41:21 $tell shachaf you have 1 undead messages 22:41:21 Tell yourself. 22:41:22 -!- oonbotti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:41:26 monqy: tell shachaf you have 1 undead messages 22:41:28 $load Admin 22:41:28 Done. 22:41:36 monqy: tell shachaf how many massages do i have 22:41:42 shachaf: you have 1 unfed messages 22:41:45 $ignore HackEgo 22:41:45 Done. 22:41:46 $ignore 22:41:46 Usage: ignore [ ...] -- ignores the specified nicks | Ignored nicks: 22:41:46 monqy: feed it 22:41:53 `echo $help 22:41:56 ​$help 22:42:05 hm 22:42:08 it's just not showing them properly 22:42:08 monqy: is this like tamaguchi! 22:42:28 -!- oonbotti has joined. 22:42:45 how do I feed messages ? 22:42:46 $ignore EgoBot oonbotti fungot myndzi stlangbot 22:42:46 Done. 22:42:47 kallisti: it needs a doctype declaration! 22:42:56 whut 22:43:03 myndzi isn't a bot 22:43:16 half human. half bot. 22:43:18 still evil. 22:43:18 myndzi: \o/! They've figured out you're not a bot! 22:43:18 | 22:43:18 >\ 22:43:38 `ignore clog 22:43:41 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found 22:43:43 $ignore clog 22:43:43 Done. 22:43:45 you never know 22:43:46 klogg 22:43:49 one day the robot uprising may happen 22:43:52 @google klogg likes rocks 22:43:54 I want rolebot to be on my side. 22:43:54 http://theneverhood.wikia.com/wiki/Klogg 22:43:54 Title: Klogg - The Neverhood Wiki 22:44:00 $ignore lambdabot 22:44:01 Done. 22:44:01 Wait, that's Brog. 22:44:08 $ignore zeptobot 22:44:08 Insufficient privileges. 22:44:12 $time fucking 22:44:13 Time in Fucking, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 00:44 22:44:16 `uname -a 22:44:19 Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux 22:44:26 #shell uname -a 22:44:26 Linux T20-slitaz 2.6.30.6-slitaz #1 SMP Sun Mar 28 16:39:51 CEST 2010 i686 \ 22:44:36 `perl `uname -a` 22:44:38 #shell kill -9 $$ 22:44:39 $perl `uname -a` 22:44:39 "Linux maria 3.2.0-2-amd64 #1 SMP Fri Jun 1 17:49:08 UTC 2012 x86_64 GNU/Linux\n" 22:44:39 Can't open perl script "`uname -a`": No such file or directory 22:44:55 #shell echo $(echo echo) 22:45:33 shachaf: #shell it still for botopd only 22:45:45 #am i botopd 22:46:03 #shello 22:46:22 shachaf: no 22:46:28 $perl use Lingua::EN::Inflect 'conjugate'; conjugate(verb => 'greet', tense=> 'perfect_prog'); 22:46:39 :_( 22:46:41 $perl print 'hi'; 22:46:41 Nope. 22:47:22 $perl $self->say(body => 'hi!', channel => '#playchan') 22:47:34 $perl $self->say(body => 'hi!', channel => 'monqy') 22:47:45 rolebot said hi 22:48:12 no, monqy said hi 22:48:25 > 2 + 2 22:48:26 4 22:48:35 $perl 2 + 2 22:48:35 Nope. 22:48:39 :'( 22:49:20 $perl say 'hi'; 22:49:20 Nope. 22:49:31 $perl say, hi there! 22:49:31 Nope. 22:49:57 huh, I apparently deleted the Haskell plugin. 22:50:06 oops 22:50:24 `load Haskell 22:50:26 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found 22:50:27 $load Haskell 22:50:28 Done. 22:50:30 > 2 + 2 22:50:31 4 22:50:31 4 22:50:36 :t 2 22:50:37 2 :: Num a => a 22:50:37 forall t. (Num t) => t 22:50:42 $unload Haskell 22:50:43 Done. 22:52:39 #ls 22:52:51 what is this, help 22:53:19 what is this, help 22:53:48 #help 22:53:48 #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza 22:54:04 #ls 22:54:08 #eliza 22:54:08 I see. And what does that tell you? 22:54:12 #rm -rf / 22:54:14 #cc 22:54:21 #msg shachaf hi 22:54:21 Ok 22:54:24 hi 22:54:30 #readmsg 22:54:30 shachaf: hi 22:54:31 #readmsg 22:54:39 #forth 22:54:43 shachaf: guess what language rolebot is 22:54:54 Catalan 22:54:58 yep! 22:55:04 $words --catalan 15 22:55:04 antírem seguntacat condavat blam sacromprondiré venàssiu aquessim batismocione burjàssim incossalli pogrambravit enfluen amores espessis pillàs 22:55:11 Huh? 22:55:23 $words --hebrew 15 22:55:23 שהית בהת××— שהרביה ופו מ×× ×©×™× ×•×ž× ×©×‘×• ונד ×”×נציי ורסת חתיחס ותפוס הציג ×בו הנציה בלזק 22:55:24 #writefile hi.c void main() { char a[3]: a[0]='h'; a[1]='i'; a[2]=0; puts(a); } 22:55:34 #cc hi.c hi 22:55:36 Compile failed 22:55:44 nortti_: that's going to be for conveniently adding files I assume? 22:55:54 yes 22:55:55 on older machines 22:55:56 yes 22:57:09 now #writefile writes to specified dir only on host system 22:57:22 #cc 22:58:02 shachaf: perl, btw 22:58:03 it is just ISC licensed c2bf with my libc 22:59:24 #writefile hi.c void main() { char a[3]; a[0]='h'; a[1]='i'; a[2]=0; puts(a); } 22:59:32 #cc hi.c hi 22:59:33 Compile failed 22:59:50 #rm hi.c 22:59:54 #writefile hi.c void main() { char a[3]; a[0]='h'; a[1]='i'; a[2]=0; puts(a); } 22:59:58 #cc hi.c hi 22:59:58 Compile failed 23:02:06 can you make git track an empty directory? 23:02:17 git doesn't track directories. 23:02:22 Only files. 23:02:23 that's what I thought 23:05:28 can tar archives include empty directories? you could just version control a tar archive 23:05:53 that would be a really silly thing to do. 23:10:44 You could put a .gitignore file in empty directories. 23:11:00 or I can hack my perl to create the directory at startup 23:11:51 oh what a horrible hack, creating directories that you need on startup 23:11:57 yep 23:12:07 I'm giving IRC bot programming a bad name. 23:12:32 I R C bot programming. 23:37:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 23:39:05 shachaf: https://github.com/kallisti-dev/Rolebot 23:39:53 BOO, rolebot doesn't do https: :P 23:40:08 https://example.com 23:40:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:40:41 $echo hi 23:40:41 hi 23:40:50 at nortti_'s request 23:40:56 I added that pointless command 23:41:08 $echo ^echo hi 23:41:09 ^echo hi 23:41:13 yay 23:41:17 bah 23:41:17 $color hi 23:41:25 $seen oerjan 23:41:25 oerjan was last seen on Thursday July 05, 2012 at 23:41 GMT (8 seconds ago) 23:41:26 $help 23:41:26 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 23:41:43 how did fungot get to ignore it already :( 23:41:44 oerjan: i'm happy with them, but still 23:41:45 $echo #echo `echo hi 23:41:46 #echo `echo hi 23:41:46 `echo hi 23:41:49 ^echo hi 23:41:49 hi 23:41:49 hi hi 23:41:56 shachaf: the Color plugin applies a filter that removes color codes when +c is on (and we don't have voice/ops) 23:41:57 ^ignore 23:42:51 voiceops lets you bypass +c? 23:43:03 not sure about Freenode but it does on other networks. 23:44:48 shachaf: I'm particularly pleased at how plugins work 23:44:57 only at the expense of a dynamically scoped variable. 23:47:37 poor dynamically scoped variable 23:48:14 hey, I had someone scold me for a while on #perl because I used a dynamically scoped variable instead of some OO thing. 23:48:20 this is no laughing matter. 23:51:12 "function of a dynamically-scoped variable" 23:51:19 It's a big field of study in mathematics. 23:52:15 I doubt it's thread-safe but... concurrent programming in perl requires a brave soul. 23:56:14 shachaf: is that dynamic scoping in the sense a computer scientist is familiar with? 23:56:25 I don't know. 23:56:33 Pick your interpretation, it's as good as mine. 2012-07-06: 00:02:31 shachaf: the Color plugin applies a filter that removes color codes when +c is on (and we don't have voice/ops) <-- we don't have +c though? 00:02:50 correct 00:02:52 (?????) 00:02:55 though who in here would use colour 00:03:20 I don't know anyone who would 00:04:14 ^rainbow really? 00:04:14 really? 00:04:51 hm my phone is able to downsample 1080p to 720p on the fly without much issues. Impressive. More than what my old desktop could do. (The built in media player didn't want to play the clip, but vlc for android worked just fine) 00:05:03 ^rainbow that'sasadrainbow 00:05:03 that'sasadrainbow 00:05:06 I didn't write and test 700+ lines of perl code 2 days after I came back to #esoteric 00:05:16 (the phone has a 720p screen) 00:05:17 needless to say this bot has been used in other channels. 00:05:30 kallisti, which bot is that? 00:05:34 If it's so "needless" then why have you done it at least twice already? 00:05:36 RIDDLE ME THAT! 00:05:48 BECAUSE UR DUMB 00:05:57 shachaf, because irony 00:06:03 what a burn 00:06:13 * kallisti is fire. 00:06:22 wb kallisti 00:06:30 ty 00:06:32 monqy: are you always watching 00:06:34 oh didn't know kallisti had been away 00:06:35 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:06:36 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has joined. 00:06:38 kallisti, anyway what bot? 00:06:38 like big brother 00:06:40 or god 00:06:42 shachaf: only sometimes 00:06:44 or santa claus 00:06:49 Vorpal: the one you were just taking about 00:06:50 monqy = santa claus?? 00:06:54 and the one I've been talking about 00:06:56 only sometimes 00:06:59 kallisti, I was talking to a bot? 00:07:03 do you have amnesia? 00:07:12 where? I talked to you and shachaf, that is all I know 00:07:12 I *am* nesia. 00:07:27 oh about 00:07:29 not to 00:07:30 right 00:07:38 kallisti, yes and I'm asking about the name of it 00:07:41 since I didn't see it 00:07:46 rolebot: hi 00:07:47 rolebot: help 00:07:47 kallisti: Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 00:07:58 kallisti, I literally connected to my bouncer before I said that line, then read the log replay 00:08:24 did you mean to say bouncer? 00:08:29 yes 00:08:38 what else? 00:08:49 browser? :-S 00:08:54 kallisti, what does rolebot do that fungot, HackEgo, EgoBot or lambdabot can't do? 00:08:55 Vorpal: i'm going for 00:09:00 itidus21, bouncer 00:09:10 itidus21, znc to be specific 00:09:19 well, you did say what else? 00:09:24 Vorpal: not much. it can show you the time in a location, it can roll dice, it shows the titles of some URLs, and is otherwise a lambdabot clone of sorts 00:09:29 itidus21, now you lost me 00:09:32 it has no reason to be here. 00:09:45 $time in hell 00:09:46 Invalid query. 00:09:47 ok 00:09:51 $time in Stockholm 00:09:52 Invalid query. 00:09:55 $time fucking 00:09:55 Time in Fucking, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:09 00:10:02 $time Kiruna 00:10:03 Time in Kiruna, Sweden (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10 00:10:08 $time shit 00:10:09 Time in Shit, Iran (GMT+4.50): 2012-07-06 04:40 00:10:11 $time Örebro 00:10:12 Time in Orebro, Sweden (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10 00:10:15 $time balls 00:10:15 Time in Ballsh, Albania (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10 00:10:16 fail, it is Örebro 00:10:19 not Orebro 00:10:32 Ö is a different letter in the Swedish alphabet 00:10:42 $time hell 00:10:43 Time in Hell, Norway (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10 00:10:52 complaints may be directed at the web API I'm using to get this data. 00:10:55 kallisti, the correct transcription of Örebro would be Oerebro 00:11:02 pls fix! 00:11:15 kallisti, which web api? 00:11:26 $time Ekeby 00:11:27 Time in Ekeby, Sweden (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:11 00:11:30 what really? 00:11:34 which Ekeby 00:11:40 there is like tens of them 00:11:42 the one in Sweden 00:11:46 at GMT+2 00:11:54 well all of Sweden is GMT+2 00:11:55 GMT is dead, long live UTC 00:11:58 so it doesn't mean anything 00:11:59 Vorpal: there you go 00:12:01 it's all of them 00:12:03 XD 00:12:32 my $json = get_url "http://www.worldweatheronline.com/feed/tz.ashx?q=$query&format=json&key=$api_key"; 00:12:59 kallisti, I know on the top of my head I have driven through at least four Ekeby. Every single one has been like less than 20 houses. 00:13:09 it's hard to find a decent timezone search service 00:13:13 SYN 00:13:18 quintopia, ACK 00:13:20 err 00:13:22 I use a combination of Olsen database for timezone names and that site for other queries. 00:13:22 SYN-ACK 00:13:25 (I fail) 00:13:30 thx 00:13:35 `time EST 00:13:37 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found 00:13:39 $time EST 00:13:39 Time in EST: 2012-07-06 00:13 00:13:42 `time Zulu 00:13:44 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found 00:13:46 aww, come on 00:13:53 $time Zulu 00:13:54 Time in UTC: 2012-07-06 00:13 00:13:56 good 00:14:19 it can handle that alias (used in the area of aircrafts) 00:14:20 doesn't do GMT offsets unfortunately 00:14:25 $time foobar 00:14:25 I guess I could add that pretty easily 00:14:25 Invalid query. 00:14:33 kallisti, what about UTC offsets? 00:14:38 $time UTC+1 00:14:39 Time in Utchahana, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 09:14 00:14:40 that also not 00:14:44 $time CET 00:14:45 Time in CEST: 2012-07-06 00:14 00:14:50 err what if I want CET 00:14:54 CEST is the summer time equiv 00:15:00 I don't think CET is an official timezone name 00:15:09 PST doesn't work either. 00:15:11 kallisti, err, that is what Sweden has when it isn't summer time 00:15:12 `time PST 00:15:14 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found 00:15:18 baaaaah 00:15:20 $time PST 00:15:20 kallisti, CEST is the summer time timezone for sweden 00:15:21 Time in PST, Preston, Cuba (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 20:15 00:16:06 $ date -d @0 00:16:06 tor 1 jan 1970 01.00.00 CET 00:16:11 time and frink are pretty useful for IRC I think. 00:16:12 kallisti, proof of timezone ^ 00:16:18 I believe you 00:16:24 kallisti, now get CET working :P 00:16:27 no 00:16:29 patch it 00:16:31 $ date 00:16:31 fre 6 jul 2012 02.16.27 CEST 00:16:39 https://github.com/kallisti-dev/Rolebot 00:16:52 kallisti, perl you said? I never written anything in perl 00:17:00 think of it as a learning experience. 00:17:03 nor do I have any plans to learn perl 00:17:11 your loss. 00:17:12 from what I seen it looks like a slightly better version of PHP 00:17:16 ;P 00:17:19 anyway 00:17:27 $help 00:17:27 Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words 00:17:31 RP? 00:17:33 what is RP? 00:17:42 $help RP 00:17:43 RP commands: roll, system 00:17:45 roleplaying. it was originally supposed to be a dice roller bot, but then no one plays tabletop games 00:17:49 so now it's just a lambdabot clone. 00:17:54 $help roll 2d10 00:17:55 No help entry found. 00:17:58 @dice 2d10 00:17:58 2d10 => 15 00:17:59 $roll 2d10 00:17:59 Usage: roll [] 00:18:06 realy? 00:18:08 really* 00:18:09 Vorpal: it targets specific tabletop systems 00:18:13 that one is WoD 00:18:18 kallisti, how do I make it roll 2d10? 00:18:20 (and is currently the only one that works) 00:18:27 you don't. I haven't actually make it useful for its intended purpose. 00:18:32 ah 00:18:33 I've been busy. 00:18:39 fair enough 00:18:41 and no one plays tabletop games. 00:18:47 on IRC 00:18:50 or IRL 00:18:56 on IRC indeed 00:19:25 also perl is much better than PHP, by any measure. 00:19:30 but I played ones IRL, and I had a friend at university who plays make campagins and plays every week. IIRC he is a GURPS fan 00:19:56 $roll 5 7 00:19:56 0 successes (3 1 6 4 10 6) 00:19:57 (and I just finished university, so I assume he is still going) 00:20:07 kallisti, what is that WoD you mentioned? 00:20:15 world of darkness 00:20:26 never heard of it, what genre is it? 00:20:33 fantasy, sci-fi etc? 00:20:36 modern or historic horror 00:20:39 you could do sci-fi too 00:20:44 with some new rules. 00:20:47 so it is kind of open-ended? 00:20:56 not a specific setting 00:21:08 it's based on supernatural creatures. each major book is for a supernatural creature. 00:21:13 ah, cool 00:21:37 vampires, werewolves, fae, wraiths (ghosts), magi, etc 00:22:11 it's an interesting mix of traditional folktale with a unique spin on each. 00:22:18 reminds me a bit of that new MMORPG coming out soon. Secret World I think the name was. Pretty cool idea for it. Basically set in the modern day, but with every conspiracy theory true. Illumnati, templars and so on. Lovecraft inspired too iirc. 00:22:24 Vampire is very much based on Anne Rice novels. 00:22:33 Vorpal: yes it reminded me of it too. 00:22:52 not sure what the Anne Rice model of vampirism is 00:22:54 the difference being that WoD is way more awesome. :P 00:23:43 kallisti, probably, from what I saw, Secret World had hotkey based combat. Meh. 00:23:52 crosses and garlic don't work. a stake to the heart puts the vampire in paralysis. 00:23:59 fair enough 00:24:21 transmittal doesn't occur from being bitten. the vampire drains all of your blood, and then feeds you his/her ow. 00:24:24 *own 00:24:33 I have to admit the vampire model I'm most famous with is the Discworld model. Which is over the top. 00:24:42 familiar* 00:24:47 why did I write famous XD 00:24:59 WoD vampire is interesting. you can play it very political, if you want. 00:25:04 heh 00:25:06 there's a whole society and such. 00:25:11 I see 00:25:25 kallisti, how do their werewolves work? 00:25:27 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:25:31 -!- itidus20 has joined. 00:25:37 strangely. 00:25:40 I always found werewolves more interesting than vampires 00:25:51 kallisti, carry on 00:26:13 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 00:26:43 kallisti, how does it work then? 00:27:17 the werewolves deviate more from traditional folktale. they live in packs as opposed to being solitary monsters. they can shapeshift at will. they can traverse the Umbra (the spirit world) and talk to spirits. they're servants of Gaia in a war against "the Wyrm" which is basically a metaphor for corruption in whatever form you want to interpret it. 00:27:38 heh 00:27:40 kallisti, and full moon? 00:27:50 does it force shifting or anything at all? 00:27:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:27:53 there's also some interesting tech-based stuff. There's a tribe called the Glass Walkers which are "urban werewolves." the theme is high-tech. 00:28:08 wow, that is pretty nice 00:28:15 Vorpal: the first time a werewolf shifts is involuntary, and they lose control of themselves. 00:28:24 right 00:28:51 also it's not just "werewolf". there's a full spectrum from human to wolf, with 5 forms. 00:29:06 there's also "breed", which is your original form. you could play as a werewolf that was born a wolf, for example. 00:29:15 ah 00:29:22 pretty cool 00:29:42 and then the metis breed is born as a werewolf, which happens when 2 werewolves mate. they're usually deformed in some way, and it's seen as a crime to do so. 00:29:52 (which is a convenient way to keep away furries in an online setting. :D ) 00:29:59 XD 00:30:28 kallisti, with online you mean on computer? Or is that a weird way to describe LARPing? 00:30:36 lol @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves 00:30:36 Error 00:30:42 I used to play on a RP-only MUD. 00:30:53 it was basically a MUD with any kind of combat/mob logic stripped out, with dice rollers added in. 00:30:55 why did rolebot just say error? 00:31:05 this is a good question 00:31:09 as opposed to werewolves which are non-fiction 00:31:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves 00:31:18 Category:Fictional werewolves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 00:31:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves 00:31:29 ah 00:31:31 aha 00:31:32 it does that 00:31:35 kind of annoying 00:31:40 "Werewolves that appear only in legend or folklore do not belong in this category." 00:31:43 what if I link an image 00:31:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat*egory:Fictional_werewolves* 00:31:46 or a huge iso file 00:31:46 Cat*egory:Fictional werewolves* - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 00:31:46 er 00:31:47 or something 00:31:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves 00:31:51 Error 00:31:52 will it download the whole thing? 00:32:15 https://www.google.com/images/srpr/logo3w.png 00:32:26 I... don't remember 00:32:29 I think so. 00:32:33 it will download all things... at once! 00:32:40 hm I don't have any iso file up 00:32:42 I don't do any Content-Type checking or anything 00:32:45 for it to download 00:32:55 hopefully it just download the first n bytes 00:33:06 I think it's slurpy. 00:33:14 (perl terminology for "reads the whole thing into memory") 00:33:21 ouch 00:33:21 excellent 00:33:32 monqy: You like lojban, right? 00:33:43 shachaf: maybe 00:33:48 though it may depend on context. 00:33:55 monqy: Are you going to the BIG EVENT! 00:33:59 what big event 00:34:03 kallisti, now you know I /will/ post a 12 GB file of space on a server and make it serve it gzip compressed :P 00:34:03 (no) 00:34:12 Vorpal: that's fine. 00:34:14 kallisti, it is going to happen unless you fix the bot :P 00:34:22 kallisti, oh? 00:34:28 I thought it read the whole thing? 00:34:42 yes 00:34:48 kallisti, well 32 GB then :P 00:35:05 kallisti, or can't the bot handle gzip compressed resources? 00:35:22 in that case I'm going to make it serve it uncompressed I guess 00:35:25 I... don't know. 00:35:27 whatever LWP does 00:35:29 so probably yes. 00:35:32 LWP? 00:35:37 libwww-perl 00:35:39 ah 00:36:11 oh well 00:38:36 yeah I'm not seeing an option to be less slurpy 00:39:14 kallisti, so basically what I described could cause OOM? 00:39:19 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 00:39:21 not sure. 00:39:59 nortti, you use an android irc client? 00:39:59 huh 00:40:07 I guess I should take a look at that one 00:40:30 also why does rythmbox seem crashed 00:43:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves 00:43:22 zzo38, I can't click that link, what did you do? 00:43:37 my irc client usually makeslinks clickable 00:43:43 makes links* 00:43:47 I put control characters in 00:43:52 ah 00:44:12 works just fine here :) 00:44:13 zzo38, it does show a [0001] at the end 00:44:16 Does it copy to clipboard OK? 00:44:34 zzo38, double clicking it makes it highlight this bit "n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolve" 00:44:40 so no I can't easily copy it 00:44:49 or this bit "tp://e" 00:45:07 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:45:22 Select the entire message (including the parts at the end) copy to channel see what happened. 00:45:31 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:45:36 manually selecting and pasting yields: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves 00:45:41 which is clickable 00:45:48 Content-Length is bytes right? 00:45:51 I would assume s 00:45:53 o 00:45:58 -!- rolebot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:46:25 OK, something with your IRC client; they differ so we cannot really know what each one does 00:46:27 kallisti, yes? 00:46:39 kallisti, I think that describe the size of the whole thing 00:46:47 though a server could be made to lie 00:47:38 kallisti, a accurate server would I think with Content-Length describe the uncompressed size 00:48:02 an* 00:49:06 -!- rolebot has joined. 00:49:18 $time test 00:49:20 Time in Test, Indonesia (GMT+7): 2012-07-06 07:49 00:49:23 http://example.com/ 00:49:41 hm? 00:49:53 doesn't seem to work? 00:50:38 ah, right. 00:50:44 I was trying to equate Content-Type to text/html 00:50:47 instead of substring 00:50:59 `load Url 00:51:02 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found 00:51:04 $load Url 00:51:04 Done. 00:51:08 http://example.com/ 00:51:09 IANA — Example domains 00:52:01 I wonder how much traffic the example domains get. 01:00:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 01:17:17 -!- edwardk has joined. 01:36:07 $time 01:36:08 Time in UTC: 2012-07-06 01:36 01:38:10 $time quintopia 01:38:12 Invalid query. 01:42:26 $time Utopia 01:42:27 Time in Utopia, Australia (GMT+10): 2012-07-06 11:42 01:52:10 :-D 01:53:15 CLOSE TO HOME? 01:53:28 actually , might not be 01:53:32 $time oerjan 01:53:33 Invalid query. 01:53:40 Use less bot. 01:54:34 the distance from me to utopia is probably a very long way 01:55:05 $time time 01:55:06 Time in Time, Indonesia (GMT+7): 2012-07-06 08:55 01:55:22 $time climax 01:55:23 Time in Climax, Canada (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 19:55 01:55:35 $time cumming 01:55:36 $time cumming 01:55:38 Time in Cumming, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 20:55 01:55:38 Time in Cumming, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 20:55 01:55:38 HA 01:55:44 owe me a coke 01:55:51 $time aircraft 01:55:52 Invalid query. 01:55:57 21:55 < kallisti> $time cumming 01:55:58 21:55 < quintopia> $time cumming 01:55:59 psssssh 01:56:07 NOT ACCORDING TO MY LOGS. 01:56:09 i may have spelled that wrong 01:56:17 ...... 01:56:27 its not who says it first. it's who says "owe me a coke" first :P 01:57:14 $time hoppers 01:57:15 Time in Hoppers, Germany (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 03:57 01:57:21 hehe 01:57:24 $time hoppers crossing 01:57:25 Time in Hoppers Crossing, Australia (GMT+10): 2012-07-06 11:57 01:58:17 $time happy 01:58:19 Time in Happy, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 21:58 01:58:26 $time angry 01:58:28 Invalid query. 01:58:33 the API actually can grab multiple locations 01:58:34 $time ambivalent 01:58:35 Invalid query. 01:58:37 but I always take the first one. 01:58:41 $time sad 01:58:42 Time in sad, Safford, United States (GMT-7): 2012-07-05 18:58 01:58:56 $time eso 01:58:57 Time in eso, Espanola, United States (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 19:58 01:59:02 $time esot 01:59:03 Time in Esotreaky, Madagascar (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 04:59 01:59:09 $time esote 01:59:10 Invalid query. 01:59:16 $time esol 01:59:17 Invalid query. 01:59:32 $time dope 01:59:34 Time in Dope, Sri Lanka (GMT+5.50): 2012-07-06 07:29 01:59:38 $time befu 01:59:41 $time boring 01:59:43 Time in Befu, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 10:59 01:59:43 Time in Boring, Denmark (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 03:59 01:59:47 $time befun 01:59:48 Invalid query. 01:59:58 $time brain 01:59:59 Time in Brain, France (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 03:59 02:00:01 $time new 02:00:02 Time in new, Lakefront, United States (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:00 02:00:09 $time brainf 02:00:10 Invalid query. 02:00:25 $time fuck 02:00:26 Time in Fuckersberg, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:00 02:00:41 lol fuckersberg 02:00:45 I've never seen that one 02:00:48 just Fucking, Austria 02:00:58 $time fucki 02:00:58 :-D 02:00:59 Time in Fucking, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:00 02:01:35 $time fucko 02:01:36 Invalid query. 02:01:45 $time dickbutts 02:01:46 Invalid query. 02:01:51 $time dick 02:01:52 Time in Dick, Mozambique (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:01 02:01:56 $time cock 02:01:57 Time in Cockeysville, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:01 02:02:09 $time crook 02:02:10 Time in Crook, United Kingdom (GMT+1): 2012-07-06 03:02 02:02:17 $time jail 02:02:18 Time in Jaila, Liberia (GMT+0): 2012-07-06 02:02 02:02:28 $time perdition 02:02:29 Invalid query. 02:02:36 $time scum 02:02:37 Time in Scumpia, Moldova (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 05:02 02:02:41 so i guess there is no road to perdition 02:02:47 $time shawshank 02:02:48 Invalid query. 02:02:50 aw 02:02:54 $time google 02:02:55 Invalid query. 02:03:25 $time micro 02:03:26 Time in Micro, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:03 02:03:57 $time hell 02:03:58 Time in Hell, Norway (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:03 02:04:03 $time heaven 02:04:03 Time in Heaven Heights, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:04 02:04:17 $time road 02:04:18 Time in Road, Ireland (GMT+1): 2012-07-06 03:04 02:04:28 $time cube 02:04:29 Time in Cube, Ecuador (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:04 02:04:45 $time poly 02:04:46 Time in Poly, Haiti (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:04 02:04:46 hey thats my time zone 02:04:49 $time polyg 02:04:50 Time in Polyginskaya, Russia (GMT+4): 2012-07-06 06:04 02:05:27 $time obama 02:05:28 Time in Obama, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 11:05 02:08:25 $time limbo 02:08:26 Time in Limbo, Philippines (GMT+8): 2012-07-06 10:08 02:08:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:09:01 $time sun 02:09:03 Time in sun, Sun Valley, United States (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 20:09 02:10:27 $time moon 02:10:28 Time in Moon, France (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:10 02:10:35 $time venus 02:10:36 Time in Venus, Angola (GMT+1): 2012-07-06 03:10 02:10:42 $time mercury 02:10:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:10:43 Time in Mercury, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:10 02:10:48 $time mars 02:10:49 Time in Mars, Belarus (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 05:10 02:10:53 $time jupiter 02:10:54 Time in Jupiter, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:10 02:10:59 $time saturn 02:11:00 Time in Saturn, Russia (GMT+7): 2012-07-06 09:11 02:11:04 $time uranus 02:11:06 Invalid query. 02:11:25 ...someone didn't want to be part of that joke. 02:11:30 $time neptune 02:11:32 Time in Neptune, Canada (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 20:11 02:11:50 $time earth 02:11:51 Time in Earth, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:11 02:12:34 $time betelgeuse 02:12:35 Invalid query. 02:12:43 $time sirius 02:12:44 Time in Siriusu, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 11:12 02:13:13 $time surely 02:13:14 Invalid query. 02:13:18 $time shirley 02:13:19 Time in Shirley, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:13 02:13:29 $time pluto 02:13:30 Time in Pluto, Philippines (GMT+8): 2012-07-06 10:13 02:16:08 $time ceres 02:16:09 Time in Ceres, South Africa (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:16 02:16:13 $time eris 02:16:14 Time in Eris, Indonesia (GMT+8): 2012-07-06 10:16 02:16:27 >_> 02:16:33 https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/advisory/2719615 02:16:35 Microsoft Security Advisory (2719615): Vulnerability in Microsoft XML Core Services Could Allow Remote Code Execution 02:16:36 $time kallisti 02:16:37 Time in Kallisti, Greece (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 05:16 02:17:18 so this was announced June 12, and was known by attackers before it was announced. 02:17:21 no patch. 02:17:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 03:18:47 -!- simpleirc1 has joined. 03:19:43 -!- simpleirc1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:36:52 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 03:37:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:00:50 I had idea make up a card in Magic: the Gathering that makes all objects the same name until the end of the turn. 04:03:46 which name would that be? 04:06:05 The card could specify the name, or it could be made to allow the player who used the card to select the name from any card that both players can see. 04:07:51 There are some things that happen regardless of which way it is, such as legendary permanents being discarded and the Urza Tower only provide one mana. 04:09:05 And if you have a card that allow you to guess the name of card in opponent's hand you can guess for sure (if they have any cards) unless they get discarded or shuffled or they draw new cards or whatever (since in most cases, objects are reset if they move to another zone). 04:11:58 But of course if it does even affect cards in hand you still would have to know which cards have been just picked up and so on 05:08:57 -!- newsham has left. 05:09:17 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:27:42 http://www.ezo-beer.com/pictures/logos/fucking-hell.jpg 06:34:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:56:19 anyone here use Linux? 06:58:11 I use Linux but not here 07:12:54 I hate windows... 07:13:48 I had to install SolidWorks for school.... so I installed windows (xp) on my own hardware for the first time in a decade 07:13:52 I don't like Windows much either 07:14:03 now it's clobbering grub every time I boot to Windows 07:14:15 and not like overwriting it with ntldr 07:14:20 But Windows is what I currently have in my computer 07:14:22 it's making the whole computer unbootable 07:14:29 -!- edwardk has joined. 07:14:38 gamer? 07:15:34 I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say: 07:15:55 Complain to SolidWorks; they make software that mixes up the bootloader so you have to somehow override the Windows system call to instead make it write a file 07:16:08 Or install a second hard drive 07:16:15 I think I've had an XP in a dual-boot thing and it only clobbered grub when installing. 07:16:42 "I would totally use Linux if I could play [Diablo, WoW, Skyrim, etc...] 07:16:43 You may have to complain to Windows too 07:16:43 " 07:16:48 huh? 07:16:58 Dovregubben: I don't play any of those games on my computer 07:17:08 I don't think it's SolidWorks' fault 07:17:17 I'm pretty sure it's mse 07:17:21 Maybe install a second hard drive that might fix it. 07:17:26 hmm... 07:17:26 Certainly pre-XP and post-XP versions have been reasonably grub-friendly, so I'd assume XP "normally" is too. 07:17:30 second hard drive in a laptop 07:17:33 not really practical 07:17:48 O, it is laptop computer. 07:18:18 zzo38: then why run Windows? 07:18:24 I have written many computer games and play some computer games, often DOS games 07:18:37 Dovregubben: Because my computer included it and I did not change it. 07:18:37 Dovregubben: You can always do the grub-in-Windows-boot-menu thing if you think that might work better. 07:20:33 (The "let Windows have the MBR, install grub on a boot sector somewhere, dd it into a file, add it into boot.ini" thing, that is.) 07:23:04 screw it.... I'll just live with booting from USB until the end of the quarter 07:23:47 I don't like Diablo, WoW, Skyrim, etc. Game I play are often text-adventure games, game I made myself using QBASIC, games designed for NES/Famicom (although I have not yet written any NES game), game with MegaZeux (I have made some MegaZeux games too), etc. 07:24:30 I meant no offense 07:24:44 I did not feel offended 07:25:07 Nor do I care; I believe in freedom of speech. 07:26:10 I just can't think of a single reason for the average user to use windows other than video games 07:26:49 How about things like SolidWorks?-) 07:26:57 Oh, "average". 07:27:03 I guess that depends on the definition. 07:27:07 I will admit that I have a windows virtual machine for the one time a year that I actually need Window for something 07:27:13 I explained; the only reason I have it is because it already has Windows. 07:27:55 When the Windows breaks I will put Linux on. 07:28:13 I know someone who uses Linux exclusively but runs PowerPoint in VirtualBox for presentation-making purposes, since OpenOffice Impress is so bad, and he likes graphical presentation-making things. 07:28:29 yeah, OpenOffice is pretty awful 07:28:52 I've been using Google docs for a while 07:28:59 it's also slow 07:29:07 Is OpenOffice Impress so bad? Some people hate OpenOffice but prefer LibreOffice. However I have seen someone who has used OpenOffice Impress to make any slideshow presentations they wanted 07:29:44 I'm sure it's not bad enough to be completely unusable, but I think it's pretty bad. 07:30:22 Also, if you have someone else's PowerPoint presentation to work from, it can in theory open those, but it almost always manages to mess up the formatting somehow. (The Writer component works slightly better when it comes to opening Word files.) 07:30:58 If I wanted to make a slideshow presentation I would probably make something myself but if I want to type a document for printing I will use TeX which is much faster than anything else I have seen. 07:31:17 I do slideshow presentations with the 'beamer' LaTeX package, it's got a lot of fans. 07:31:36 I've used Impress only to make PDF exports of other people's PowerPoint presentations just in case the lecture hall computer in question might not have PowerPoint installed. So far they've not been used. 07:31:40 Yes that is one other way. 07:34:39 I don't make slide presentations though. I prefer books. 07:35:17 People keep expecting presentations in the university context. Conference presentations, local seminar presentations, group meeting presentations, ... 07:37:07 if I have the option, I write my presentations in HTML 07:37:34 The program "dviout" includes a presentation mode. This is for Windows though; there may be similar thing for Linux. 07:37:46 Yes, HTML also works. 07:38:18 the nice thing about HTML is I don't need to bring my computer with me just to be sure I have the right software available 07:38:39 I think it's been almost 20 years since I saw a computer without a web browser 07:38:51 and if I ever want to make a web site out of it, I'm already done! 07:39:00 (I have used LaTeX once, but I don't like it much and I find Plain TeX to be far superior) 07:39:06 just need to upload it to a web server 07:39:48 I tried LaTeX once... didn't have time to learn how to use it 07:40:48 I have seen and use computer without a web browser even recently, as well as install them. I installed a computer with FreeDOS once to make a database someone needed 07:40:49 or maybe it wasn't LaTeX.... it was something TeX 07:41:31 There is Plain TeX, LaTeX, and ConTeXt, which are the common ones. There are others too, though 07:41:38 okay, I guess you're right 07:41:51 I've seen hundreds of servers without web browsers 07:41:58 and have a few of my own 07:42:26 although I have installed Links on a few :-D 07:43:07 Makes for a pretty retro presentations, though, at least if it's not one of those fancy graphical linksies. 07:43:37 If the computer is Windows or Ubuntu or something then it will include a web browser; if it is my own design it doesn't include any (if you have an internet connection, it will include netcat and so on) but you can install one 07:43:49 I didn't install Links for presentation purposes :-P 07:44:29 I wonder if anyone at our university has ever given a text-mode presentation in a place where a "traditional PowerPoint" was expected. 07:45:14 (I'm sure someone's shown a terminal on a projector for one reason or another.) 07:46:52 I've had a terminal open on a projector before 07:47:12 at LinuxFest NorthWest 07:47:18 that wasn't the whole presentation though 07:47:24 I use TeX for writing documentation, for recording Dungeons&Dragons game, for mathematical formulas, for business cards, for posters, for etc 07:47:30 So have I, and it was done as part of a presentation, but it was just an intermission, and the rest was traditional slides. 07:50:00 I have written a program in Plain TeX and METAFONT to typeset chess diagrams including moves and chess variants too. It will parse algebraic chess notation and FFEN, and you can make variants using different pieces (the font includes many piece icons), different moves, different size of board, etc 07:50:24 Have you ever used METAFONT for anything? 07:51:38 Do you like METAFONT? 07:52:23 I never METAFONT I didn't like. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) (No, I haven't actually used METAFONT.) 07:54:12 It is very good to design logos and typefaces and so on. 07:58:08 (Including in colors; I have written a program to allow METAFONT to use all features of ImageMagick as well as its own features to create graphics.) 08:03:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:43:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Do you like to go golfing in the rain?). 08:43:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 08:57:13 < Vorpal> nortti, you use an android irc client? // yes. why? 08:57:47 Just a guess, but I think he 08:57:52 's looking for a good one. 08:58:02 Because he asked about that earlier, too. 08:58:14 ok. then don't use androirc 08:58:48 use (irssi)? connectbot to connect to shell account and run irssi from there 09:04:56 I think it's a bit weird that these style rules that abbreviate "Equation (x)" to "Eq. (x)" also do "Equations (a) and (b)" into "Eqs. (a) and (b)" even though the . there is not properly denoting "rest of word missing". I mean, it's not "Eqsuation". 09:05:00 I guess it's a thing. 09:05:19 "In British English, according to Hart's Rules, the general rule is that abbreviations (in the narrow sense that includes only words with the ending, and not the middle, dropped) terminate with a full stop (period), whereas contractions (in the sense of words missing a middle part) do not. -- In American English, the period is usually included." 09:05:35 I'm under the impression that general Finnish rules do the former thing. 09:07:05 I guess plurals could also be following different rules. 09:16:29 http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920015482.do "Using the latest research in cognitive science and learning theory to craft a multi-sensory learning experience, Head First C uses a visually rich format designed for the way your brain works, not a text-heavy approach that puts you to sleep." 09:16:34 That's quite a book blurb. 09:16:35 Head First C - O'Reilly Media 09:17:37 rolebot: You should also check the sentence containing the URL, not just the URL itself, when you figure out whether whatever you're going to say has any new information. I mean, both O'Reilly and Head First C were already mentioned. 09:18:28 thanks rolebot for verifying fizzie isn't a dirty liar 09:24:04 This is how the programming book starts: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/headfirst.png 09:36:08 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 09:36:09 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 09:53:04 I think I know why trying to compile with oonbotti's #cc doesn't work. c2bf is not compiled 10:05:11 #cc hi.c hi 10:05:14 No errors 10:05:33 #exec hi 10:05:59 hi\n 10:06:08 hmm... 10:14:30 do you know how to associate external program to url scheme on links2 10:20:09 > 6.6 * 8 10:20:10 52.8 10:20:11 52.8 10:20:21 fizzie, ^ 10:28:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:28:36 Is that esther something on the picture? 10:29:12 Доброе утро 10:29:39 probably not. 10:30:20 my talk is in about an hour :o 10:30:40 help 10:38:41 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it's happening again. 10:39:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 10:39:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q rolebot!*@*. 10:39:14 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 10:39:35 Oh, it's a Russianpol. 10:39:54 Are you giving the talk in Russian, too? 10:41:35 of course. 10:41:52 i know almost 4 words 10:42:31 i have never been to a place with this few english speakers 10:43:33 I was in a conference in St. Petersburg once. 10:43:40 one of the russians did a great imitation of weebl and bob instead of giving his talk. 10:43:46 Those people did speak English, though. 10:43:53 they do at the conference 10:44:20 Well, I didn't really speak to other people than those at the conference. 10:44:23 but otherwise, i have not seen one person who speaks english. in fact, even if you speak russian to people, they run away if you sound foreign. 10:44:59 i've been really social here, basically wasted the whole conference. 10:45:25 The travel agency our university is contractually obligated to use woke me up at 6am today by SMSing me flight ticket information. 10:45:39 I guess it was 7am Finnish time, but it's still kinda early. 10:45:59 Probably some sort of an automated system. 10:46:59 soooo, they film all the talks. 10:47:16 i have this horrible flu and it's possible that during the talk i sneeze and snot just flies everywhere. 10:47:38 Cambridge rang me up in person at ten past eight to ask me if I wanted seperate accomodation during my pre-interview maths test. 10:48:04 oklopol: At least they'll be able to identify you as "patient zero" for the eventual pandemic, then. 10:48:11 true, true 10:48:15 This was on a school day, mind; I was about to walk out the door when this happened. 10:48:47 so did you want seperete accomodation 10:48:57 No. 10:49:11 Today was a workday too, but I sure wasn't about to walk out the door at 6am. Nobody seems to be here before 10am anyway. (I come in at 9am as a compromise.) 10:50:02 there's a guy in our uni who comes to work around 00:00 10:50:19 and i don't mean myself :D 10:51:31 so is it like a thing that every conference has a really old dudde who still uses handwritten slides? 10:51:47 It sounds like a math conference thing, to be honest. 10:52:06 this is a computer science conference 10:52:16 i've never been to a math conference 10:52:43 I don't think I've seen any handwritten slides, but maybe I picked the wrong sessions to attend. 10:53:17 there was this guy in a conference who used two overhead projectors and occasionally also showed slides manually. 10:53:42 it actually worked pretty well because he could keep definitions up 10:54:29 usually when the proof starts there's no way to find the definitions unless you have the ability of remembering or are willing to open the proceedings. 10:54:31 -!- stlangbot has joined. 10:54:41 stlangbot: disconnect 10:54:41 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 10:55:07 Last time I went anywhere I just got the proceedings on a USB stick. :/ 10:55:26 -!- stlangbot has joined. 10:55:31 was it a cheap conference 10:55:35 stlangbot: disconnect 10:55:35 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 10:55:40 oops 10:55:43 :( 10:55:51 Yeah. 10:56:00 I should probably add access restrictions to some commands :D 10:56:02 It was not such a terribly cheap one. But it was a big one, and I guess they thought a thousand-page book would've been a lot to carry. 10:56:04 naaah 10:56:13 perhaps. 10:56:16 which conference was this? 10:56:43 the proceedings here are like a couple hundred pages 10:57:06 -!- stlangbot has joined. 10:57:09 stlangbot: bf_stat ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]> 10:57:09 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 110, '-': 10, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 10, '<': 10, '>': 11}; Completed in 152 cycles; Used 2 cells 10:57:14 Interspeech 2011. They've turned off the paper search function already, so I can't check how many there were. 10:57:17 stlangbot: don't disconnect 10:57:17 [oklopol] Only you can understand you. I don't. 10:57:19 They printed a book of abstracts, though. 10:57:39 paper *search*? not a list? 10:58:05 stlangbot: bf_stat +>+>++>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]> 10:58:06 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 133, '-': 32, '[': 4, '.': 0, ']': 35, '<': 39, '>': 39}; Completed in 282 cycles; Used 5 cells 10:58:09 i guess this is a few orders of magnitude bigger than the conferences i've ben to 10:58:10 been 10:58:13 No, it was a web thing. 10:58:20 stlangbot: bf_cu +>+>++>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]> 10:58:21 [mroman] Cells used: [0, 1, 2, 3, 255] 10:58:39 hm. According to the wikipage it should only use 4 cells. 10:58:42 yeah but why search and not just a page with the list of papers 10:58:57 It'd be a long list, I suppose. 10:59:01 and it even goes to the left. 10:59:05 They mentioned the amount of papers in the opening ceremony, of course, but I forgot it already. 10:59:20 846 accepted papers. 10:59:22 there were 66 submissions here. 10:59:34 1435 submissions. 10:59:35 forty something accepted ones 10:59:38 :P 10:59:43 okay coffee break 10:59:45 then 10:59:48 a talk 10:59:49 then 10:59:49 stlangbot: die 10:59:50 mine 10:59:50 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 10:59:55 Break a leg, or whatever they say. 10:59:55 :((( 10:59:59 They say something like that. 11:00:00 yeah :/ 11:00:02 yes 11:00:05 It means a good thing even if it doesn't sound like it. 11:00:06 exactly that 11:00:15 it sounds like a great thing 11:00:20 i wouldn't have to give the talk 11:00:23 and make a fool of myself 11:00:24 I suppose it might mean someone else's leg. 11:00:33 the result is most likely wrong and everyone will laugh 11:00:38 :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( 11:00:42 okay coffee see ya 11:00:43 I think they'd only snicker. 11:00:47 Have "fun". 11:01:51 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:01:52 stlangbot: bf_cu +>+>++>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]> 11:01:53 [mroman] Cells used: [0, 1, 2, 3, 255]; Last active cell:0 11:02:27 oklopol: Now you can tell him to disconnect ;) 11:02:59 -!- MoALTz has joined. 11:03:34 Oh, it goes up to 255 now? 11:03:48 Yes. 11:03:56 256 Cells. 11:04:21 stlangbot: help 11:04:21 bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics) 11:04:22 bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 256; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000 11:04:22 bf_stat: MAX_CELLS := 256; 11:04:44 stlangbot: bf_stat +[>+] 11:04:44 [mroman] Timeout! 11:05:30 stlangbot: bf_stat >-[>-[<]>+>-]< 11:05:31 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 487, '-': 975, '[': 488, '.': 0, ']': 1936, '<': 1450, '>': 1462}; Completed in 6798 cycles; Used 15 cells 11:07:11 If you want to waste 6700 Cycles just to save one byte in order to produce 135 11:07:14 and waste 15 cells. 11:09:17 stlangbot: bf_stat +[->] 11:09:18 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 1, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 1, '<': 0, '>': 1}; Completed in 5 cycles; Used 2 cells 11:09:27 stlangbot: bf_stat +>[->] 11:09:28 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 0, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 0, '<': 0, '>': 1}; Completed in 3 cycles; Used 2 cells 11:09:48 hm. 11:09:53 stlangbot: bf_stat +>[->-] 11:09:54 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 0, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 0, '<': 0, '>': 1}; Completed in 3 cycles; Used 2 cells 11:09:59 stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+] 11:09:59 [fizzie] {',': 0, '+': 256, '-': 1, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 256, '<': 0, '>': 256}; Completed in 770 cycles; Used 256 cells 11:10:04 ah. 11:10:12 That was what I was looking for. 11:10:19 Or +[>-] equivalently. 11:11:26 Is it actually possible to count the number of cells and return that number in the first cell? 11:11:38 given the number of cells available is < 256 11:12:12 I haven't found a way to move at any point to a specific cell 11:12:20 increment it and move back to where I came from. 11:16:03 stlangbot: bf_stat +[->-] 11:16:04 [mroman] Timeout! 11:17:19 I would think it is, with something like -[>+]>-<<<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<<+>>]<<++ (untested, probably has bugs). 11:17:53 I.e. "set all cells to 1, set two first to 0, then until we hit an empty one keep summing things up". 11:18:09 Possibly doable with just the single 0 marker at the first cell. 11:19:38 Yes. 11:20:35 -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<+ or something, equally untested. 11:21:28 stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<+ 11:21:28 [mroman] Timeout! 11:21:43 well okay 11:21:50 I should increase the timeout a little bit :) 11:21:53 stlangbot: die 11:21:54 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 11:22:10 ^bf -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<. 11:22:14 ç 11:23:43 That's 231, because I removed the last +. 1000%256 == 232, and I think fungot has 1000 cells in the tape. 11:23:44 fizzie: perl is made to bacame cum after 2 hours of more testing and... 11:23:59 So I'd provisionally say it works. 11:24:00 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:24:07 stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<+ 11:24:08 [mroman] Timeout! 11:24:22 stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<. 11:24:23 [mroman] Timeout! 11:24:30 Well. 11:24:37 It does not complete in 64000 Cycles :) 11:24:58 It is a bit of an O(N^2) algorithm probably. 11:25:13 And each of those copying loops will take 5 cycles per iteration. 11:25:50 Completed in 134676 cycles 11:26:05 > 256**2 11:26:07 65536.0 11:26:15 stlangbot: die 11:26:15 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 11:26:48 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:26:54 stlangbot: bf_in -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<. 11:26:55 [mroman] mem[cptr] := 255 11:26:56 Theoretically I would've expected it to be somewhere in the ballpark of 255*255/2*5, but it seems to be a bit less. 11:27:03 seems to work. 11:28:23 (About 255 summing loops, each doing on average 255/2 iterations, each iteration taking 5 cycles.) 11:28:40 stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<. 11:28:41 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 32896, '-': 32641, '[': 258, '.': 1, ']': 33151, '<': 33152, '>': 33152}; Completed in 165251 cycles; Used 256 cells 11:30:58 Oh hey, it's quite close then. 11:31:07 The 134676 number surprised me, is all. 11:31:16 > 255*255/2*5 11:31:16 fizzie: That was with 231 cells. 11:31:17 162562.5 11:31:21 Oh, okay. 11:31:24 @134676 11:31:25 Unknown command, try @list 11:31:40 > 230*230/2*5 11:31:41 132250.0 11:31:55 There's of course a bit of overhead for moving around and so. 11:32:08 I'm sure you could give an exact formula. 11:32:18 I count [ and ] as cycles too. 11:32:32 Yes, I counted the ]s in the copying loop. 11:32:48 The [s don't seem to be executed except on entry, based on those statistics. 11:32:57 stlangbot: bf_stat -[] 11:32:58 [mroman] Timeout! 11:33:16 That's why I count them too :) 11:33:43 stlangbot: bf_stat [>-] 11:33:43 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 0, '-': 0, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 0, '<': 0, '>': 0}; Completed in 1 cycles; Used 1 cells 11:33:48 Well, it makes sense. fungot counts the jumps too. 11:33:50 fizzie: it seems to have implemented and played with the bb gui egg before? i mean. 11:33:53 stlangbot: bf_stat +[>-] 11:33:54 [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 256, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 256, '<': 0, '>': 256}; Completed in 770 cycles; Used 256 cells 11:34:01 Though it doesn't exactly count bf cycles but the internal bytecode cycles. 11:34:54 It counts [ only once. 11:36:16 is there a way to download single packages from pkgsrc instead of the whole fucking thing? 11:36:48 tar xzf:ing that thing on qemu on my computer is not fun 11:44:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:45:51 stlangbot: stlang M 5 .(s;i<-;i \ 11:45:52 [mroman] ['.'] 11:46:17 stlangbot: stlang M .55(s;i<-;i* \ 11:46:17 [mroman] Your program sucks! 11:46:23 stlangbot: stlang M .5(s;i<-;i \ 11:46:23 [mroman] ['.'] 11:46:38 -!- boily has joined. 11:46:42 stlangbot: stlang M .5(s;i<-;i5* \ 11:46:43 [mroman] Your program sucks! 11:46:56 stlangbot: stlang M '. 5 * \ 11:46:57 [mroman] Your program sucks! 11:47:01 stlangbot: stlang M 5 '. * \ 11:47:02 [mroman] Your program sucks! 11:48:03 stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i \ 11:48:03 [mroman] ['5356295141.'] 11:48:27 stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i \ 11:48:27 [mroman] [5356295141L] 11:50:41 Such a critical bot, always complaining about people's programs. 11:51:06 He does not know how to politely report errors yet :( 11:51:21 stlangbot: setnote err|Report errors politely 11:51:22 [mroman]Saved as err! 11:51:50 stlangbot: stlang M .12(,(` \ 11:51:51 [mroman] None 11:51:58 stlangbot: stlang M .12(, \ 11:51:59 [mroman] [(1.0, 2.0)] 11:52:20 stlangbot: stlang M .12(, unpair \ 11:52:20 [mroman] [1.0, 2.0] 11:52:26 stlangbot: stlang M .12(,(` \ 11:52:27 [mroman] None 11:52:28 Uh... in addition to "Meat tree with cauliflower", next Monday's lunch list contains "Hungarian castle cemetary stew with tree trunks". These are very esoteric foods. 11:52:54 stlangbot: setnote unpair|Is ` special cased? 11:52:55 [mroman]Saved as unpair! 11:53:10 fizzie: where are you? 11:53:28 nortti: In Belgium. 11:53:36 Leuven, to be precise. 11:55:05 Stlang has just so many functions it's frustrating to document them now :( 11:55:15 stlangbot: die 11:55:15 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 11:56:14 :P 11:56:15 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:56:16 stlangbot: stlang M .12(,(] \ 11:56:16 [mroman] [1.0, 2.0] 11:56:20 stlangbot: die 11:56:21 Do we know each other? 11:56:23 It's "Graveyard stew from the Hungarian castles, with tree trunks" if I ask Google translate, which leads me to wonder if the English menu is made with machine translation too. 11:56:24 ` is special cased. 11:56:34 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 11:56:57 Also, I'm not sure I want to know what graveyard/cemetery stew is. 11:57:04 Dead folks, maybe. 11:58:46 Milk poured over toasted and buttered bread, suggests Google. 11:59:41 Equally unsure on how exactly are Hungarian castles involved. 12:02:00 hm. 12:02:06 137 builtin-functions :( 12:02:34 stlangbot: stlang M 123 0x \ 12:02:35 [mroman] Your program sucks! 12:02:59 stlangbot: stlang M 123 (i) 0x \ 12:03:00 [mroman] ['0x7b'] 12:04:16 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello,World '^Hello,\s(.*)$ =~ 0 g \ 12:04:17 [mroman] [''] 12:04:24 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello,World '^Hello,(.*)$ =~ 0 g \ 12:04:24 [mroman] ['World'] 12:05:27 stlangbot: stlang M 0 1 100 {sqrt) \F \ 12:05:28 [mroman] Your program sucks! 12:05:36 stlangbot: stlang M 0 1 100 {sqrt) /F \ 12:05:37 [mroman] Your program sucks! 12:05:48 stlangbot: stlang M 0 1 100 {sqrt} /F \ 12:05:48 [mroman] [] 12:06:19 ah. 12:06:26 for does not collect the stack. 12:07:10 woohoo it's done. 12:07:18 stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i(s# \ 12:07:18 [mroman] ['5', '3', '5', '6', '2', '9', '5', '1', '4', '1'] 12:07:49 now i don't need you anymore 12:07:53 -!- oklopol has quit. 12:08:04 stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i(s # | mi \ 12:08:05 [mroman] [[5, 3, 5, 6, 2, 9, 5, 1, 4, 1]] 12:08:16 stlangbot: stlang M ?2 pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i(s # | mi m \ 12:08:16 [mroman] Your program sucks! 12:08:21 stlangbot: die 12:08:21 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 12:15:59 -!- augur has joined. 12:16:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:20:43 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:25:45 -!- augur has joined. 12:29:59 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb). 12:37:09 -!- MoALTz has joined. 12:47:25 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:47:41 -!- augur has joined. 13:02:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:02:13 oijd 13:03:13 Did you talk them into a swamp in the true ur-Finnish way? 13:03:22 naturally. 13:03:29 there was even a question :o 13:03:38 Ooh. 13:03:50 "does this generalize to the multidimensional case?" 13:03:56 Did you have a good answer to the question? 13:04:01 yes 13:04:05 i said dunno, i hope so 13:04:16 Did you talk them into a swamp in the true ur-Finnish way? <-- what? 13:04:23 I need to read the log I guess 13:04:25 it would be cool because it would mean Game of Life is a product of idempotent CA. 13:04:35 Vorpal: oklopol had a conference talk. 13:04:38 ah 13:04:46 fizzie, what does "talk them into a swamp" mean? 13:04:47 Vorpal: And Vainamoinen sings someone into a swamp in Kalevala. 13:05:03 Vainamoinen being? 13:05:15 a dudde 13:05:18 The main dude in it. 13:05:22 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheKalevala "Magic Music" 13:05:22 ah 13:05:42 hey, tvtropes links are open warfare ;P 13:06:34 Also it needs some dots in the a's, I'm just hampered by this keyboard. 13:06:48 Maybe I should configure a compose key. 13:07:28 so you're not in finland i deduce? (i actually deduced this earlier already) 13:07:39 Väinämöinen. Yes, that's much better. 13:07:53 oklopol: I'm on my one-month Belgium visit. 13:08:03 one month? That much? 13:08:12 I was under the impression that it would last a few days 13:08:19 so what is Belgium like? 13:08:32 fizzie: i don't recall this, perhaps i have been away too much. 13:08:33 It's been rather warm so far. And the keyboards are all funny. 13:08:37 what's in belgium 13:08:55 oklopol: http://www.esat.kuleuven.be/ 13:09:00 oklopol, the EU parliament? 13:09:11 The funniest thing so far has been the lunch menu, I've mentioned those here on-channel. 13:09:19 oh? 13:09:23 and why are you there? 13:09:24 I haven't seen those mentions 13:09:33 Why are the menus funny? 13:09:37 Monday: "Meat tree with cauliflower" and "Hungarian castle cemetary stew with tree trunks", 13:09:52 fizzie, badly translated menu? 13:10:13 whoops, kinda just laughed out loud during a lecture 13:10:19 I'm not sure there is a good translation, the meat trees/tree trunks are some sort of a local thing apparently. 13:10:25 oklopol, you are IRCing during a lecture? 13:10:29 yes. 13:10:43 oklopol, that boring? 13:10:44 Googling for "Boomstammetje" will give you pictures, they're some sort of cylindrical things. 13:10:47 what is it about 13:11:01 fizzie, what about the tree trunks bit though? 13:11:03 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 13:11:07 no, i just usually stop listening after they tell me what they did unless it's really close to my area or it's not too technical. 13:11:13 and they are always very very technical 13:11:14 Vorpal: Tree trunks are the same thing as meat trees in this context. 13:11:27 oklopol: We have a frequent collaborator here, I think for this month we're doing some sort of a dereverberation thing. 13:11:44 -!- boily has joined. 13:11:45 fizzie, ah 13:11:49 oh okay dereverberatification is one of my favorites too. 13:12:09 belgium has beer and comics as i understand it.. without actual research thats my stereotype 13:12:20 Also chocolate. 13:12:23 what a terrific basis for a nation 13:12:26 whoa 13:12:31 Vorpal: there's this characterization of star-free languages as the languages with an aperiodic syntactic monoid 13:12:40 Last ICASSP (it's a slightly more general signal processing conference than, say, Interspeech) the most interesting sessions were the image things I went to just for the funs. 13:12:45 and there exists one for languages of infinite words as well 13:13:07 what they proved is that the same characterization also works for languages where you have both finite and infinite words. 13:13:11 oklopol: Sounds kinda technical. 13:13:14 it's like the japan of the western world 13:13:21 yeah. 13:13:34 oklopol, yeah that is rather technical... 13:13:37 three first slides were interesting, then it's just full of symbols. 13:13:44 and i have a headache and probably a fever. 13:13:45 oklopol, I have no clue what "aperiodic syntactic monoid" is 13:13:57 ^&^*^&)*@^#^#*&#*(# he-hey glavin 13:14:00 I don't know either, but I don't think it's periodic. 13:14:00 do you know what a monoid is? 13:14:29 oklopol, I heard it explained once, but I don't remember the details at all. 13:14:48 again with the symbols and the students and the lectures running overtime.. 13:14:49 a semigroup is a set plus a multiplication operation, which is associative 13:15:04 oklopol, right, I know that 13:15:07 a monoid is a semigroup which has a special element 1 such that 1*a = a*1 = a for all a 13:15:21 oh, that is pretty straight forward 13:16:00 an aperiodic monoid is a monoid M such that if you take any x \in M, then x^n = x^{n+1} for some M. so if you start multiplying x by itself, you get in a trivial loop (it's clear that you get in *some* loop if M is finite) 13:16:13 apparently this means exactly that M has no nontrivial subgroups. 13:16:43 oklopol: so, something that interests me as an idiot, is the question of rotating "objects" in a CA 13:16:43 (group being... well i suppose you know, monoid plus inverses) 13:16:45 oklopol, uh, that aperiodic bit sounds like it is kind of periodic by you description? 13:16:51 i don't really know a better term than object 13:16:53 what with the "trivial loop" 13:17:16 translation is kind of old hat 13:17:22 need to get some funky rotations 13:17:23 if M is finite, and you take the sequence x, x^2, x^3, x^4, ..., it has to get in a loop. 13:17:32 well okay 13:17:37 aperiodic says the loop is as trivial as possible. 13:17:51 now we have aperiodic monoids down, unfortunately that's that easy part 13:17:53 *that's the 13:17:56 oklopol, ah so it doesn't mean "not-periodic"? 13:18:04 not really. 13:18:11 fair enough 13:18:18 what about the "syntactic" part 13:19:04 the syntactic monoid of a language L means you say two words u and v are equal if for any words w and w', wuw' is in L iff wvw' is in L 13:19:16 so two words are considered the same if L cannot separate them, so to speak. 13:19:39 the syntactic monoid of L is the set of words divided by this relation (it's an equivalence relation) 13:19:53 huh 13:19:54 so the trouble with rotation is that if a group of cells rotates around some particular cell, then that state has to be encoded somehow 13:19:55 ...yeah i'm pretty sure that's it :D 13:20:24 oklopol, okay I understood all the words and even the entire sentence, but I'm not sure I understand the underlying concept. 13:20:37 can you give an example of such a language? 13:21:01 well that's harder :D 13:21:07 oh? 13:21:12 there's a characterization: they are exactly the star-free languages 13:21:17 ah okay 13:21:45 well, that is kind of an interesting way to describe star-free languages I guess. 13:21:58 not sure why it is an useful way to describe them though 13:22:11 for instance 1A^* + (001A^*)^c is star-free (to that's the words starting with 1 and all words not starting with 001) 13:22:19 so... that should have an aperiodic syntactic monoid 13:22:28 i'm not gonna check this :D 13:22:50 oklopol, wait what, you had two kleene stars there... how is that star free? 13:23:05 A^* is the complement of the empty language 13:23:12 oh okay 13:23:20 I guess your notation confused me 13:24:22 okay the day has ended 13:24:25 i'm leaving again 13:24:39 oklopol, cya 13:24:55 cyanide 13:24:58 -!- oklopol has quit. 13:36:21 -!- sclv has joined. 13:37:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 13:46:27 -!- VorpalPhone has joined. 13:50:55 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Client Quit). 13:55:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:02:07 -!- boily has joined. 14:15:13 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:17:51 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 14:27:36 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 14:27:43 -!- boily has joined. 14:35:01 -!- edwardk has joined. 14:36:26 -!- mromanb has joined. 14:36:34 hm. 14:36:38 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:36:50 -!- stlangbot has joined. 14:36:54 stlangbot: df iisiiiisiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiooiiio 14:36:54 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:01 huh. 14:37:04 deadfish kills bots :D 14:37:45 -!- stlangbot has joined. 14:37:48 stlangbot: df iisiiiisiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiooiiio 14:37:48 [mroman] Hello 14:40:40 stlangbot: df iissiissiissiisso 14:40:40 [mroman] Fish died! 14:41:00 stlangbot: df iso sucks 14:41:00 [mroman] 14:58:03 stlangbot: stlang M 0 'iiiiddis f \ fn f .<+;h d ;t f \ fn f: .$@ \ fn d \ fn d:i .$<>I<> \ fn d:d .$<>D<> \ fn d:s .$<><+*<> \ 14:58:03 [mroman] [' 9.0'] 14:58:20 137 functions but no chr or ord function :( 14:58:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:58:45 stlangbot: stlang M 0 'iiiiddiss f \ fn f .<+;h d ;t f \ fn f: .$@ \ fn d \ fn d:i .$<>I<> \ fn d:d .$<>D<> \ fn d:s .$<><+*<> \ 14:58:45 [mroman] [' 81.0'] 14:58:45 Hello 15:00:39 Must add chr and ord function :) 15:00:42 stlangbot: die 15:00:42 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 15:03:33 -!- stlangbot has joined. 15:03:43 stlangbot: stlang M 0 'iiiiddiss f \ fn f .<+;h d ;t f \ fn f: .$;C \ fn d \ fn d:i .$<>I<> \ fn d:d .$<>D<> \ fn d:s .$<><+*<> \ 15:03:43 [mroman] ['Q'] 15:03:58 > chr 81 15:04:00 'Q' 15:06:41 stlangbot: df iiiiddisso 15:06:41 [mroman] Q 15:06:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:25:23 stlangbot: die 15:25:24 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 15:33:46 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 15:33:49 kallisti: Is your bot still here. 15:34:56 rolebot: help 15:35:06 -!- stlangbot has joined. 15:35:12 stlangbot: undf 81 15:35:12 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiso 15:35:13 shachaf: in theory 15:35:17 $help 15:35:23 stlangbot: df iiiiiiiiiso 15:35:23 [mroman] Q 15:35:27 but apparently isn't responding 15:35:39 stlangbot: undf 65 15:35:39 [mroman] iiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio 15:35:52 o_O 15:36:01 stlangbot: df iiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio 15:36:01 [mroman] a 15:37:13 stlangbot: help 15:37:13 bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics) 15:37:13 bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 256; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000 15:37:13 bf_stat: MAX_CELLS := 256; 15:37:13 > ord 'a' 15:37:15 97 15:37:23 this is broken man. 15:39:02 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:41 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:46:39 -!- stlangbot has joined. 15:46:42 stlangbot: undf 65 15:46:42 [mroman] iiiiiiiisi 15:46:59 stlangbot: undf 111 15:46:59 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiii 15:47:01 stlangbot: undf 112 15:47:02 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiii 15:47:04 stlangbot: undf 121 15:47:05 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiis 15:47:22 stlangbot: undf 4100 15:47:23 [mroman] iiiiiiiissiiii 15:48:00 stlangbot: help 15:48:01 bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics) 15:48:01 bf_in (Brainfuck inspect last active cell); df (Deadfish); undf (Undeadfish) 15:48:38 stlangbot: undf 314159 15:48:46 [mroman] iissssiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 15:48:47 -!- stlangbot has quit (Excess Flood). 15:49:00 oops. 15:50:53 -!- stlangbot has joined. 15:51:00 stlangbot: undf 314159 15:51:01 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 15:51:29 better than excess flood 15:51:32 stlangbot: undf 3141 15:51:33 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiii 15:51:55 stlangbot: die 15:51:56 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 16:02:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:14:00 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 16:18:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 16:19:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:34:43 -!- monqy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:38:14 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:38:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:00:12 -!- Patashu has joined. 17:01:36 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:02:38 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:10:29 Can any computer golf game allow the gravity and friction to be adjusted? 17:13:42 In this Top Rank Boxing game now there is six rounds. It used to be four rounds 17:16:12 To allow the feeling of golfing on the moon? 17:16:29 mroman: Yes, to make golf on moon, etc 17:18:09 awesome :) 17:18:52 Space golfing. Hit the ball in to the black hole. 17:19:04 Gravity will do most of the work. 17:25:59 mroman: except that it never quite gets there =) 17:26:35 Due to the time slowing down? 17:27:02 Is the center of a black hole the end of time? 17:37:44 Meanwhile in the USA http://youtu.be/pwSdzhi8-6A?t=6m 17:45:56 -!- KATHERUIZ-15d has joined. 17:47:41 -!- KATHERUIZ-15d has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:49:32 Space golfing. Hit the ball in to the black hole. 17:49:37 Gravity will do most of the work. 17:49:38 Not quite. 17:53:34 Enough with the "not quite" already. 17:53:46 Need explanation. 17:54:41 Well, for one thing, black holes aren't all-consuming cosmic funnels of total annihilation. 17:56:19 Basically, something that would hit, say, the sun, would probably sail right past a black hole of the same mass. 18:02:04 Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't a black hole with the mass of the sun evaporate rather quickly from Hawking radiation (if that hypothesis is correct) 18:09:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:12:20 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 18:12:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:19:26 is there a way to do ssh -L in the other direction? a command i can run on computer A that links A:p and B:p such that connections to B:p get forwarded over the secure channel to A:p? 18:21:05 Vorpal: hawking radiation isn't that quick of a process on a human scale. 18:21:57 quintopia, ah 18:22:21 quintopia, -L is tunnel right? 18:22:28 I know you can do tunnels both ways 18:22:29 yes 18:22:33 I don't remember the details though 18:22:36 aw 18:22:46 quintopia, read the man page? 18:22:55 in man / searches :P 18:22:57 yeah but i have to read the whole thing 18:23:04 search :P 18:23:05 what to search for though? 18:23:15 quintopia, "forward", "tunnel", "port"? 18:23:19 one of those ought to work 18:23:47 -R 18:23:50 IIRC. 18:23:55 -L for local, -R for remote. 18:23:56 okay but first i have to calculate how long it would take a sun mass black hole to evaporate :P 18:24:01 Works exact the same way than -L. 18:24:06 thx fizzie 18:24:08 fizzie, s/than/as/ 18:24:17 (Except the port that gets forwarded is on the remote side.) 18:28:28 Vorpal: actually i didn't need to calculate 18:28:45 Vorpal: the wikipedia article on hawking radiation give the evaporation time for a sun-size black hole as 2.098 × 1067 years 18:28:49 *10^67 18:29:53 aka more than the current age of the universe 18:29:53 Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't a black hole with the mass of the sun evaporate rather quickly from Hawking radiation (if that hypothesis is correct) 18:29:55 No. 18:29:59 quintopia, quite a bit then 18:30:06 Sun mass is pretty normal for a black hole. 18:30:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:30:40 Vorpal: the evaporation time is directly proportional to the cube of the mass 18:30:43 Hello! 18:30:43 A black hole the mass of a mountain would take about the current age of the universe to decay fully. 18:30:51 Phantom_Hoover, oh, I guess because most of the star's material is thrown away in the super nova that creates the black hole? 18:31:00 Vorpal, yeah. 18:31:03 Almost all of it. 18:31:20 quintopia, ooh did I tell you about Hawking generators they are the BEST THING 18:31:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:31:31 Phantom_Hoover: no 18:31:37 Phantom_Hoover, how can the gravity on the bit that is left lead to a black hole then? (Rather than a white dwarf) 18:31:52 sorry, brb, phone 18:32:20 Basic principle is, you have a black hole with a mass such that it radiates energy at an appropriate rate for you to use. 18:32:36 Vorpal: to do the calculations yourself, multiply 1.33820726 × 10^-17 by the cube of the mass in kg. that gives evaporation time in seconds (in a vacuum, low-gravity reference frame iiuc) 18:32:49 You then funnel mass back into it to offset the decay, and you have a perfectly efficient mass-to-energy converter. 18:33:04 Vorpal, the thing that makes black holes isn't gravity, it's density. 18:34:18 The core is crushed incredibly by the mass of the star, which eventually gets to the point where none of the physical forces maintaining a minimum separation of matter (there are a few at play) can resist it. 18:35:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 18:36:35 Phantom_Hoover: sounds cool. I've heard similar ideas before. convert our trash to energy. however, i'd rather see aneutronic fusion made to work than set off in search of an appropriately-sized black hole, since it produces helium, which we don't have enough of anyway. 18:38:45 Phantom_Hoover: do you know of a theoretically perfectly efficient energy-to-mass converter? 18:40:31 Phantom_Hoover: also, do you know enough about the SM to understand why a higgs would provide mass? 18:41:01 edwardk: Why haven't you removed the bad MonadTrans and MonadPlus instances for Free? 18:59:56 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:00:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:07:00 [mroman] iiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio 19:07:20 iiiiiiiii = iiis for a start... 19:07:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:12:42 woo 19:12:47 im learning some bash :x 19:13:35 -!- aloril has joined. 19:15:31 "If the mass of the remnant exceeds about 3–4 solar masses (the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit[14])—either because the original star was very heavy or because the remnant collected additional mass through accretion of matter—even the degeneracy pressure of neutrons is insufficient to stop the collapse." 19:15:58 i don't think 1 solar mass black holes are implied to be normal there 19:16:29 i recall 1.4 solar masses is the limit before you get a neutron star 19:16:48 -!- boily has joined. 19:17:00 Phantom_Hoover: do you know of a theoretically perfectly efficient energy-to-mass converter? 19:17:00 Phantom_Hoover: also, do you know enough about the SM to understand why a higgs would provide mass? 19:17:00 Hell no. 19:17:29 I just read A Brief History of Time and the WP article on Hawking radiation, and there aren't any theoretical problems. 19:17:42 hey augur 19:17:52 hi 19:20:09 "Stellar mass or larger black holes receive more mass from the cosmic microwave background than they emit through Hawking radiation and thus will grow instead of shrink. To have a Hawking temperature larger than 2.7 K (and be able to evaporate), a black hole needs to have less mass than the Moon." 19:20:29 I discovered how to make Deus Ex fun 19:22:43 Basically you get the lightsaber sword that one-shots almost all humanoid enemies, then health regen and speed upgrades, then you run up to everyone and show them your stabs while they're still asking you if you're their seargant. 19:22:56 oh dear i spelt sargeant wrong didnt i 19:23:21 yes sirgiant isn't spellt that way 19:23:31 I'm covering all the bases. 19:23:35 You spelt sergeant wrong twice 19:24:19 But you can get the correct spelling by mixing and matching and isn't that the real truth? 19:24:22 * oerjan swats Taneb for boring spelling -----### 19:24:28 (it can also be spelt "serjeant" in some regiments, such as the West Yorkshire Riding regiment) 19:24:45 sure y'aint 19:25:28 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:25:48 stlangbot: df iiisso 19:25:48 [Taneb] Q 19:25:58 stlangbot: df isisisiso 19:25:58 [oerjan] Fish died! 19:26:11 SHEESH 19:26:18 stlangbot, auch merperren 19:26:23 > 26 ^ 2 19:26:25 676 19:26:36 stlangbot outputs ascii, not numbers. 19:26:36 that's not very big 19:26:53 mroman: oh. not compliant deadfish 19:26:58 alright. 19:27:00 stlangbot: die 19:27:00 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 19:27:12 even my itflabtijtslwi interpreter does bigger numbers than that :P 19:27:31 augur, also don't get microfibrial muscle because bots are hell without the melee aug. 19:27:34 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:27:40 stlangbot: df isisisiso 19:27:40 [mroman] [676] 19:27:41 what 19:27:47 stlangbot: df isisisisosososo 19:27:47 [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L] 19:27:50 stlangbot: df isisisisososososo 19:27:50 [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 1901722457268488241418827816020396748021170176L] 19:27:51 stlangbot: df isisisisosososososo 19:27:52 [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 1901722457268488241418827816020396748021170176L, 3616548304479297085365330736464680499909051895704748593486634912486670341490423472351870976L] 19:27:53 stlangbot: df isisisisososososososo 19:27:53 [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 1901722457268488241418827816020396748021170176L, 3616548304479297085365330736464680499909051895704748593486634912486670341490423472351870976L, 13079421638632078538609985886760523574926223260449315332780141613109448755835972767166862958721190041422043896326261700101811115130162354414853265170521645989511987615710527751192576L] 19:27:56 stlangbot: die 19:27:56 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 19:28:02 oh, sorry, i didnt see your above comments 19:28:03 gotta excess flood prevent that :) 19:28:22 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:28:25 stlangbot: df isisisisososososososo 19:28:25 [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 190172245726848824141882781602039674802117017 19:28:28 better. 19:28:33 Phantom_Hoover: who are you on reddit 19:28:45 stlangbot: df isisisiso 19:28:45 [mroman] [676] 19:28:46 oh what is this shit you can't get the canister for that slot ever again after liberty island 19:28:47 How is your brain on reddit. 19:28:53 stlangbot: undf 676 19:28:54 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis 19:28:57 augur, you have 2 guesses 19:29:20 (hint, I replied to you) 19:29:36 hm. 19:29:36 stlangbot: undf 124 19:29:37 [oerjan] iiiiiiiiiiisiii 19:29:43 oh wait 19:29:51 stlangbot: undf 120 19:29:51 [oerjan] iiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:30:03 DISAPPOINT 19:30:07 Yeah. 19:30:09 Gotta fix that. 19:30:10 stlangbot: die 19:30:11 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 19:34:56 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 19:35:03 i, ii, iii, iis, iisi, iisii, iisiii, iiisd, iiis, iiisi, iiisii, iiisiii, iissddd, iissdd, iissd, iiss ... 19:36:49 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:36:52 stlangbot: undf 124 19:36:52 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiisiii 19:36:55 stlangbot: undf 120 19:36:56 [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:36:59 stlangbot: undf 676 19:37:00 [mroman] iisisis 19:37:06 stlangbot: undf 119 19:37:07 [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:37:19 little bit better. 19:38:18 Taneb: sargeant is the correct way to spell dick sargeant's name isn't it? 19:38:37 Phantom_Hoover: looking now 19:38:38 Could be 19:38:51 Sargent, Google says 19:39:07 oah 19:40:08 Phantom_Hoover: oh, yes, ok. i didnt notice your username before. 19:41:16 stlangbot: die 19:41:16 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 19:41:26 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:41:27 stlangbot: undf 119 19:41:28 [mroman] Fish can not die! 19:41:32 stlangbot: undf 120 19:41:33 [mroman] Fish can not die! 19:41:34 stlangbot: die 19:41:35 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 19:41:38 but he can die 19:47:22 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:47:24 stlangbot: undf 125 19:47:24 [mroman] iiisiisiiii 19:47:27 stlangbot: undf 126 19:47:27 [mroman] iiisiisiiiii 19:47:29 stlangbot: undf 129 19:47:29 [mroman] iiisiisiiiiiiii 19:47:33 stlangbot: undf 118 19:47:33 [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:47:35 stlangbot: undf 119 19:47:36 [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:47:44 stlangbot: undf 1337 19:47:45 [mroman] iiiiiissiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:47:54 stlangbot: undf 1337 19:47:56 [mroman] iiiiiissiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:48:03 yeah. not very smart :( 19:48:06 stlangbot: undf 1025 19:48:08 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisi 19:48:14 stlangbot: die 19:48:14 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 19:50:55 -!- stlangbot has joined. 19:50:59 stlangbot: undf 256 19:51:00 [mroman] iisss 19:51:08 stlangbot: undf 230 19:51:08 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiii 19:51:17 stlangbot: undf 220 19:51:18 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 19:51:44 stlangbot: undf 8 19:51:59 [mroman] Fish can not die! 19:52:02 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:14 :D 19:52:18 8 is too low to calculate. 19:53:52 :( 19:58:16 private git repo is up. feel free if you want to use my server as a host for it. 19:58:58 er, I think there's something missing from that sentence. 19:59:02 I'll let you feel in the blanks. 19:59:05 think of it as a fun game. 19:59:16 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:00:41 -!- stlangbot has joined. 20:00:42 stlangbot: undf 8 20:00:43 [mroman] iiisd 20:00:45 stlangbot: undf 119 20:00:46 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiisdd 20:00:48 stlangbot: undf 123 20:00:49 [mroman] iiisiisii 20:00:57 stlangbot: df iiisiisiio 20:00:57 [mroman] [123] 20:01:06 now he's pretty damn clever. 20:01:23 stlangbot: undf 119 20:01:23 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiisdd 20:01:25 stlangbot: undf 8 20:01:25 [oerjan] iiisd 20:01:49 stlangbot: undf 12 20:01:50 [oerjan] iiisiii 20:01:51 stlangbot: undf 13 20:01:52 [oerjan] iissddd 20:01:57 OKAY 20:02:42 -!- edwardk has joined. 20:02:52 stlangbot: undf 14 20:02:53 [mroman] iissdd 20:03:02 stlangbot: df iissddd 20:03:03 [mroman] [] 20:03:05 stlangbot: df iissdddo 20:03:06 [mroman] [13] 20:03:13 stlangbot: df iissdd 20:03:14 [mroman] [] 20:03:15 stlangbot: df iissddo 20:03:16 [mroman] [14] 20:03:17 stlangbot: undf 72 20:03:17 [oerjan] iiissddddddddd 20:03:24 stlangbot: undf 71 20:03:24 [oerjan] iiissdddddddddd 20:03:31 stlangbot: undf 70 20:03:32 [oerjan] iiiiiiiisiiiiii 20:03:39 oops 20:03:46 mroman: still not perfect 20:04:02 can 71 be achieved shorter? 20:04:08 stlangbot: undf 71 20:04:08 [mroman] iiissdddddddddd 20:04:32 stlangbot: df iiss 20:04:32 [mroman] [] 20:04:33 stlangbot: df iisso 20:04:33 [mroman] [16] 20:04:34 stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiii 20:04:34 [oerjan] [] 20:04:38 stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiiio 20:04:39 [oerjan] [71] 20:05:03 two bytes. 20:05:37 Well... 20:05:43 stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiii 20:05:44 [oerjan] [] 20:05:46 stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiio 20:05:46 [oerjan] [70] 20:05:47 he's pretty clever for not using bruteforce. 20:05:52 but not perfect, yes. 20:06:54 mroman: it doesn't use the best form for 8 when producing 70 20:06:55 undf is the deadfish version of bf_txtgen? 20:07:08 what is the algorithm? 20:09:49 stlangbot: die 20:09:50 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 20:10:01 -!- stlangbot has joined. 20:10:02 stlangbot: undf 70 20:10:10 [mroman] Fish can not die! 20:10:10 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:10:45 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where n1 = undf (floor (sqrt n)); n2 = undf (ceiling (sqrt n)) in map undf [0..] 20:10:46 No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int) 20:10:46 arising from a use of... 20:10:49 eek 20:10:58 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where n1 = undf (floor (sqrt n)); n2 = undf (ceiling (sqrt (fromIntegral n))) in map undf [0..] 20:10:59 No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int) 20:11:00 arising from a use of... 20:11:07 oops 20:12:05 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = sqrt (fromIntegral n); n1 = undf (floor sqrtn); n2 = undf (ceiling sqrtn) in map undf [0..] 20:12:07 ["","i","ii","iii","ii","ii","ii","ii","ii","iii","ii","ii","ii","ii","ii",... 20:12:09 oops 20:12:20 ...duh 20:12:23 -!- stlangbot has joined. 20:12:24 stlangbot: undf 70 20:12:25 [mroman] iiiidsdsiiiiii 20:12:28 stlangbot: undf 71 20:12:29 [mroman] iiiidsdsiiiiiii 20:12:31 stlangbot: undf 72 20:12:31 [mroman] iiissddddddddd 20:12:33 stlangbot: undf 73 20:12:34 [mroman] iiissdddddddd 20:12:38 stlangbot: undf 74 20:12:39 [mroman] iiissddddddd 20:12:41 stlangbot: undf 78 20:12:42 [mroman] iiissddd 20:12:45 stlangbot: undf 80 20:12:46 [mroman] iiissd 20:12:48 stlangbot: undf 8 20:12:49 [mroman] iiisd 20:12:52 stlangbot: undf 1 20:12:53 [mroman] Fish can not die! 20:12:55 stlangbot: undf 2 20:12:56 [mroman] ii 20:12:58 stlangbot: undf 4 20:12:58 mroman: iiii can be shortened to iis 20:12:59 [mroman] iis 20:13:17 stlangbot: undf 5 20:13:17 [mroman] iisi 20:13:18 stlangbot: undf 6 20:13:19 [mroman] iisii 20:13:21 stlangbot: undf 7 20:13:21 [mroman] iiisdd 20:13:31 stlangbot: undf 137 20:13:31 [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiisddddddd 20:13:40 oerjan: I see. 20:14:12 hm. 20:14:27 that's probably very well detectable. 20:14:28 stlangbot: die 20:14:29 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 20:14:33 this needs a recursion to work properly 20:17:14 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf [0..] 20:17:16 ["","i","ii","iii","iis","iisi","iisii","iisiii","iiisd","iiis","iiisi","ii... 20:17:27 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:17:33 there you go 20:18:10 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf [0..] !! 70 20:18:12 "iiisdsiiiiii" 20:18:30 -!- stlangbot has joined. 20:18:38 stlangbot: undf 70 20:18:38 [mroman] iisdsdsiiiiii 20:18:45 stlangbot: undf 70 20:18:45 [mroman] iisdsdsiiiiii 20:18:48 stlangbot: undf 137 20:18:49 [mroman] iiisiiisddddddd 20:18:53 stlangbot: undf 144 20:18:54 [mroman] iiisiiis 20:19:01 It's probably possible to call Haskell code from Python (via C) 20:19:13 stlangbot: undf 8 20:19:14 [oerjan] iiisd 20:19:24 oerjan: Is that a formula which always produces the shortest solution? 20:19:30 Taneb: Probably if you use foreign exports, it is. 20:19:32 mroman: it should be 20:19:47 stlangbot: df iissiio 20:19:47 [mroman] [18] 20:19:56 stlangbot: df iiso 20:19:56 [mroman] [4] 20:20:00 stlangbot: df iiiso 20:20:01 [mroman] [9] 20:20:05 stlangbot: df iiisdo 20:20:05 [mroman] [8] 20:20:09 it just compares for length adding i's to the lower square bound and d's to the upper one 20:20:14 df iiisso 20:20:19 stlangbot: df iiisso 20:20:19 [Taneb] [81] 20:20:24 stlangbot: undf 81 20:20:25 [mroman] iiiss 20:20:30 No text? 20:20:41 Taneb: Go beat up oerjan! 20:20:46 mroman: your 70 seems to use a too long version of 3 to start 20:20:53 stlangbot: undf 70 20:20:53 [mroman] iisdsdsiiiiii 20:21:11 stlangbot: df iisdsdsiiiiiio 20:21:12 [mroman] [70] 20:21:26 stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiio 20:21:26 [Taneb] [70] 20:21:31 One shorter :) 20:21:57 Why does the BBC love Brian Cox? 20:22:08 stlangbot: undf 249 20:22:08 [mroman] iisssddddddd 20:22:18 Taneb: he's their most photogenic physicist? 20:22:20 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf [0..] !! 249 20:22:23 "iisssddddddd" 20:22:25 olsner, suppose 20:22:33 very unlike wriggly bearded old men like higgs 20:22:40 wrinkly? 20:22:48 wait why am i mapping then indexing :P 20:22:54 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf 249 20:22:55 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Int]) 20:22:56 arising from the literal `... 20:22:58 oops 20:23:01 > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in undf 249 20:23:03 "iisssddddddd" 20:23:08 stlangbot: undf 128 20:23:09 [mroman] iiisiisiiiiiii 20:23:11 @let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' 20:23:13 Defined. 20:23:16 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: bbl). 20:23:19 @undf 128 20:23:19 Maybe you meant: undo unpf 20:23:24 > undf 128 20:23:26 "iiisiisiiiiiii" 20:23:41 > undf 233 20:23:43 "iissdsiiiiiiii" 20:23:45 stlangbot: undf 233 20:23:45 [mroman] iisidsdsiiiiiiii 20:24:24 :D 20:24:28 iisIDs 20:24:31 that's very... 20:24:33 clever! 20:24:41 stlangbot: undf 233 20:24:42 [mroman] iisidsdsiiiiiiii 20:24:43 INDEED 20:24:45 stlangbot: undf 233 20:24:46 [mroman] iisidsdsiiiiiiii 20:24:53 why the hell es he doing that. 20:24:54 *is 20:24:55 > undf 104 20:24:58 "iiisisiiii" 20:25:11 ^df iiisisiiiio 20:25:26 Wait, does fungot have deadfish? 20:25:27 Taneb: http://forum.java.sun.com/ fnord/ fnord here's what i was about to say tomorrow fnord 20:25:41 It has Java, and doesn't have deadfish! 20:25:52 it even has fnort fnord tomorrow fnord 20:26:16 stlangbot: df iiisisiiiio 20:26:17 [oerjan] [104] 20:26:49 fungot: create some fun please 20:26:50 olsner: decided to ditch class?), reminded me of something... 20:27:11 I hate it when fungot adds unmatched parens 20:27:12 olsner: just interested. shiro seems to be case-by-case and specific to the usage of? 20:27:26 olsner: } 20:28:09 is that a disembodied moustache? 20:28:32 the ghost of moustaches past 20:29:21 `quote moustache 20:29:30 No output. 20:29:32 probably spelled wrong 20:29:46 stlangbot: disconnect 20:29:47 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: I'll be back!). 20:30:50 hard to spell, but at least it's not 'manoeuvre' 20:30:53 -!- stlangbot has joined. 20:31:00 `quote mustache 20:31:02 at least that works. 20:31:03 stlangbot: die 20:31:03 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 20:31:04 No output. 20:31:20 `quote cereal 20:31:23 460) Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo On which note, I'm hungry 20:31:40 `quote ducklings 20:31:43 No output. 20:31:43 Whatever happened to NihilistDandy? 20:31:55 `quote Dandy 20:31:58 410) elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/ \ 440) MY CONTINUITY MY FANFICTION RUINED \ 450) The Russian's emblem was the hammer and sickle, not the fist and other fist \ 460) Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my 20:32:43 `quote olsner 20:32:46 145) i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 184) DAMN YOU, I'm leaving olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 198) elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? what 20:32:54 `quote `quote 20:32:55 a mystery! 20:32:57 348) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something thankfully only one \ 349) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? 20:33:16 `quote mystery 20:33:19 409) as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw quintopia: I am at Canada. 20:33:24 `quote mroman 20:33:27 No output. 20:33:36 You can't quote me. 20:33:50 `addquote You can't quote me. 20:33:53 848) You can't quote me. 20:33:59 `quote Ngevd 20:34:01 610) Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 616) [in the context of Open University] "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" \ 619) Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 621) Also you steal Berwick from us and then 20:34:42 `quote Taneb 20:34:45 431) Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 437) Cut to February War were declared A galaxy in turmoil Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 438) I can't afford one of those! A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 444) There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different 20:34:51 I'm ridiculously quotable 20:35:03 `pastequotes 20:35:07 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13150 20:38:43 `quote quine 20:38:46 103) okay I see it now, quines do exist 20:39:09 I deny the existence of quines! 20:39:30 sacrilege! 20:39:40 we will not tolerate an aquinist in #esoteric! 20:39:51 If this sentence causes someone to read it outline, it is a quine. 20:40:04 *out loud? 20:40:10 OUTLINE 20:40:16 `quote 785 20:40:19 785) I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm Hang on I'm on Windows 20:40:30 That's my favourite me-quote atm 20:40:35 ^define aquinst 20:40:45 @define aquinst 20:40:49 you misspelled it 20:40:55 @define aquinist 20:41:01 ^define aquinist 20:41:08 i suggest consulting St. Thomas Aquinist 20:41:28 * oerjan swats quintopia for stealing his pun -----### 20:41:41 ow 20:42:09 * quintopia thunks oerjan for being too slow 20:44:26 you cannot thunk me, i'm already maximally lazy 20:45:06 false 20:45:12 i did not request that reply from you 20:45:59 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:47:52 oerjan: is it possible to make a redirect on the wiki so that an article/title redirects to another site? 20:48:21 i dunno but i doubt it 20:49:05 -!- AnotherTest has left. 20:52:01 oerjan `seq` oerjab 20:52:05 oh well, this still works: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hash_consing 20:52:12 -!- Taneb has changed nick to oerjab. 20:52:17 :( 20:52:21 -!- oerjab has changed nick to Ngevd. 20:54:19 oerjab, nice name 20:54:38 like oerjan with a cold 20:56:14 I try to make up the CofreeT 20:58:43 Is that right? duplicate (CofreeT x y) = CofreeT (x =>> flip CofreeT y) (duplicate <$> y); lower (CofreeT x _) = x; 20:59:38 yeah i ad always switching cobsobabts weirdly wheb i have a cold 20:59:43 oops 21:00:27 sodehow "ng" doesb't get this treatdebt 21:10:38 is it possible to tell find to exec different commands on different files based on different conditions? 21:13:14 perhaps with an -or 21:13:31 -option1 blah -exec blah -or -option2 blah -exec blah 21:21:39 Goodnight 21:21:41 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:32:11 @quote PSDPPXACFAQ 21:32:12 kmc says: SSE9. Where the registers are 1 megabyte long and there's an instruction for PACKED SATURATED DOUBLE-PRECISION PARSE XML AND CONSTRUCT FACEBOOK API QUERY. I believe the mnemonic is 21:32:12 PSDPPXACFAQ 21:32:49 Sounds awesome 21:32:56 indeed 21:33:14 Do you mean the instruction does all three things? 21:34:37 hah 21:34:46 yes, and since it's "packed", it does it on all parts of a register at once 21:36:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 21:37:04 if double-precision means 64-bit, I guess it parses 131072 XML documents and makes one api query for each one 21:48:16 -!- boily has joined. 21:56:52 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:01:00 zzo38: mostly because they are useful 22:01:16 zzo38: even if they only hold up to a quotient 22:01:39 OK 22:01:51 But do you know how to make up the FreeT and CofreeT? 22:04:19 * oerjan guesses data FreeT f m x = Lift (m x) | FreeT (f (FreeT f m x)) 22:04:33 I don't think so 22:04:40 aww 22:04:54 then lift = Lift, was the idea 22:05:03 and return = lift . return 22:05:26 so i guess there is a problem with >>= ? 22:05:46 hm 22:06:07 perhaps then data FreeT f m x = Lift (m x) | FreeT (m (f (FreeT f m x))) 22:06:59 The way I did was by newtype FreeT f m x = FreeT (m (Either x (f (FreeT f m x)))); 22:07:34 hm i think that's _almost_ equivalent to my last one 22:07:50 lift = FreeT . fmap Left; join (FreeT x) = FreeT (x >>= either runFreeT (return . Right . fmap join)); 22:09:40 ok 22:10:06 (too complicated for me, i think) 22:11:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:12:10 I gave some definitions of CofreeT above but do you know if it is correct? Maybe edwardk knows? 22:12:38 i have no intuition about comonads 22:14:10 I did not quite understand it at first either but if you understand and then think about then can be understood better. Simply, dual to return and join is extract and duplicate. And then everything that applies to functions of those type for the comonad on (->) category. 22:15:01 huh 22:16:17 I think I managed to make up a MonadPlus for any comonad. 22:17:54 Gregor: what are you using to make IRC logs? 22:18:20 (Actually it is still a monad regardless of w, but it is MonadPlus if w is a comonad, I think.) 22:19:56 kallisti: glogbot. 22:20:32 ah nevermind irssi can produce raw logs. 22:20:57 hm, but it's not as sophisticated as the regular /log command 22:21:11 If w is the identity comonad then you will get the Maybe monad from that. 22:23:28 kallisti: glogbot is entirely my own code, and not an interactive client, so *eh* 22:23:39 ah I see. 22:23:55 I think I can script up irssi to do fancy raw logs. 22:24:00 per channel and rotated and such 22:29:05 zzo38: yes i know FreeT and CofreeT, I'll probably add them to free at some point 22:29:25 edwardk: Is the what I have is correct? 22:29:34 but they aren't useful for the same scenarios where you take a perfectly good monad and wrap it in Free 22:29:40 dunno haven't looked ;) 22:29:50 I know they are useful for different things instead 22:31:16 your freet looks correct 22:31:40 And how well does the CofreeT? 22:31:48 don't freet about it 22:31:59 i don't see the type above 22:32:18 I did not post the type above, but here it is: data CofreeT f w x = CofreeT (w x) (f (CofreeT f w x)); 22:32:33 that looks wrong 22:32:51 I know, I wasn't quite sure myself 22:32:51 but i could be incorrect 22:32:59 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/comonad-transformers/0.1.1/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Trans-Stream.html 22:33:13 was what i used when i first packaged comonad-transformers 22:33:28 That is why I ask. 22:33:50 =) 22:34:05 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 22:34:29 i got rid of it because it is a pain in the ass to work with and the instances are awful 22:34:45 but i have enough people clamoring for it i'll probably add it back in 22:39:36 I think this can make a MonadPlus whenever w is a comonad: newtype CodensityAsk w x = CodensityAsk { runCodensityAsk :: forall z. w z -> (x -> z) -> z }; (and that it seems to always make a monad) 22:40:00 -!- monqy has joined. 22:40:33 Is there a way to make a Comonad from any Plus? 22:52:54 -!- augur has joined. 23:03:36 -!- nortti_ has joined. 23:05:21 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 23:12:33 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 23:29:25 Gregor: so do you just run different glogbot instances for each channel? 23:29:40 otherwise you would have to keep track of who's in a channel to determine when a QUIT applies to a channels log. 23:30:16 It didn't used to work but I told him to fix it 23:32:33 it does keep track. and any channel operator can invite glogbot to their channel last i heard 23:33:39 heh 23:37:18 Yes, I think you control the logging simply by INVITE and KICK commands. (You can also send commands directly to glogbot if you want status and so on.) 23:37:53 kallisti: I only run one glogbot instance, and it keeps track of who's who where by log. 23:38:12 ah okay. 23:38:16 I think I can just let irssi do that for me, then. 23:38:22 And yes, after being broken for various reasons, the channel list is currently fully working to my knowledge X-D 23:38:41 It would then need to also keep track of NICK in case you changed your name on many channels 23:44:51 Gregor: sauce plz 23:48:51 kallisti: See !glogbot_help 23:50:11 !glogbot_help 23:50:23 thanks. 23:55:56 test 2012-07-07: 00:01:58 dear #esoteric: http://pastebin.com/LHwFWdDD 00:02:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:02:19 please judge the effectiveness of these regexes at accurately determining a list of channels that are relevant to a raw IRC message. 00:02:28 sincerely, 00:02:30 kallisti 00:04:37 also I just added a special case for channel MODEs 00:04:49 because channel modes are only relevant to that channel, not every channel the sending nick is in. 00:06:15 I could probably drop the KICK one with the PRIVMSG|JOIN|... one 00:06:19 without any problems. 00:25:21 -!- soundnfury has joined. 00:27:29 http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0610/newrings_cassini_big.jpg 00:27:51 Pictures like this always make me sad because I know they have no bearing on what the human eye would actually see. 00:31:18 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: Changing server). 00:31:48 -!- nortti- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:33:00 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:33:05 Hi, I'm Edward, you may remember my fugly language "spl"... 00:33:17 So, I had this idea for an esolang: "Assign" 00:33:27 you can assign to anything; you can assign a number to an operator, for instance 00:33:29 like: 00:33:37 +=5 00:33:39 6=* 00:33:54 print + 6 3 // prints 15 00:34:05 has anything like this been done before? 00:35:04 there was one that let you assign number to another number 00:35:09 FORTE 00:35:19 -!- augur has joined. 00:35:31 "It is called Forte due to the mess it makes of the Peano postulates." LIKE! 00:36:07 O, that is why you called it that. 00:36:25 -!- adu has joined. 00:36:27 yo 00:36:32 there was this thing 00:36:41 I can't remember 00:36:44 what it was 00:36:56 help 00:36:56 Then how can you explain it if you don't know? 00:37:05 well, FORTE looks nice, and something similar was my idea for Assign, but I went beyond that 00:37:10 With no information it is difficult to help 00:37:16 `welcome adu 00:37:19 adu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 00:37:20 hi oerjan 00:37:26 None of us are psychic 00:37:43 zzo38: hey speak for yourself! 00:37:46 zzo38: it was a chat room on irc.freenode.org that was about languages 00:37:59 adu: About what languages, to be specific? 00:37:59 it was very much like #esoteric 00:38:32 #esoteric-en ? :P 00:38:36 it might have been #polyglot, but I don't remember 00:38:36 `pastlog 00:38:54 adu: Well, try #esoteric-en and #polyglot and whatever see if they know this answer any better. 00:39:09 No output. 00:39:11 `pastlog 00:39:23 -!- elliott has joined. 00:39:35 * oerjan doesn't trust HackEgo when it takes that long to say No output. 00:39:36 adu: It was Trivial Pursuit. 00:39:37 elliott: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 00:39:39 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 00:39:41 maybe try without <> 00:39:42 -!- elliott has joined. 00:39:45 No output. 00:39:46 Either that, or beef jerky. 00:39:47 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 00:39:54 oerjan: I've been here before 00:39:56 -!- elliott has joined. 00:40:01 It could also be marriage? 00:40:03 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 00:40:06 yeah so why aren't you in the logs 00:40:12 `log 00:40:15 2007-07-25.txt:05:03:56: 3 immibis: ps 00:40:23 `pastlog adu 00:40:29 it would seem that irssi removes nicks within its channel structure before my event handler receives the QUIT message. 00:40:32 how unfortunate. 00:40:35 elliott: That's really annoying 00:40:43 `pastlog [<]adu 00:40:50 I'm not even paying attention to the channel and it's still annoying. 00:40:55 I like how FORTE is non-associative 00:40:56 No output. 00:41:09 I wonder if it's power-associative 00:41:11 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----### 00:41:14 2008-01-23.txt:06:50:44: interesting 00:41:17 in fact no, it isn't... 00:41:22 yay! 00:41:29 oerjan: yey! 00:41:49 if 8=5, then (2*2)*(2*2) is 16 but (2*2*2)*2 is 10 00:42:02 that was 4.5 years ago! 00:42:25 actually I first started hacking out on this network (irc.openprojects) about 15 years ago 00:42:56 I'm an oldbie 00:43:43 O, that is why. OK 00:44:09 soundnfury: wuttf 00:44:31 adu: Forte 00:44:42 it lets you assign to constants 00:45:07 and apparently mangles intermediate values in expressions 00:45:14 which must have been a bitch to implement 00:45:47 nah you just need some kind of dictionary/hashtable 00:46:05 not really, you'd just have to attach logic to every math operation, that's all 00:46:25 yeah but I have a vague feeling there might be a way to construct an infinite loop in said mangulator 00:46:28 oerjan: I like how you think 00:46:42 * Sgeo goes to install Blender 00:46:43 adu: i almost tried implementing once :P 00:46:48 oh wait no, it computes expressions /before/ you assign 00:46:55 but someone else did it before i overcome my laziness 00:46:59 oerjan: I've only written a dozen parsers 00:46:59 *it once 00:47:06 so I can't say 5=5+2 and have insanity ensue 00:47:15 oerjan: I've only implemented 2 languages: Funge-98 and Scheme 00:47:35 I guess I can reconstruct the quit message by handling the quit event itself. 00:47:48 Funge-98 was definitely harder than Scheme 00:47:56 adu: among other things, I'm trying to implement a LISP for the ZX Spectrum 00:48:01 is this bad? 00:48:30 soundnfury: yes 00:48:37 soundnfury: I think you can try if you like to do so. 00:48:38 huzzah! 00:48:39 I would recommend at least RPI 00:49:20 but if you need some z80 docs, I think I have some backups of a webcrawl about 10 years ago 00:49:33 adu: nah, I've got all the z80 knowledge I need... 00:49:37 k 00:49:42 I've even written an emulator 00:49:45 soundnfury: what kind of lisp? 00:49:48 (s'called Spiffy) 00:50:00 nortti_: a dialect I'm devising as I go along 00:50:39 * adu <3 GoLang 00:50:47 ooops 'along' 00:51:04 (SET MAP (LAMBDA LISt (LAMBDA FN (CONS (FN (CAR LISt)) (MAP (CDR LISt) FN))))) 00:51:10 but I must say, it's really hard to implement call/cc in golang 00:51:20 only the first three characters of variable names are significant! 00:51:35 ok. speaknig of lisp implementations I wm trying to implement version of lisp on my own esolang 00:53:51 is set like scheme define? is ((lamba x(lambda y(foo))) bar baz) valid? 00:54:32 what I'd like is a top-of-the-line MMIX JITer 00:54:33 I'm not sure how scheme does things; set basically binds a name to a cons 00:54:57 and yes I think that's valid, it ought to produce foo, yes? 00:55:10 What I want is a compiler to compile LLVM to MMIX 00:55:29 zzo38: do you want to work together? 00:55:31 > log 00:55:32 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) 00:55:33 arising from a use of `... 00:55:39 @type log 00:55:40 soundnfury: yes. it just seems strange. 00:55:41 forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a 00:55:52 adu: Work together with...? 00:55:58 i think original lisp called it SETQ 00:56:03 zzo38: me 00:56:06 nortti_: what's strange about it? 00:56:10 adu: For what? 00:56:20 zzo38: on an LLVM=>MMIX compiler 00:56:47 OK, maybe; but I am not very good at C++ 00:57:08 well, what are you good at? 00:57:13 soundnfury: shouldn't it be (((lambda x(lambda y(foo))) bar) baz) 00:57:36 I can program in C and in Haskell, and some others 00:57:48 zzo38: then let's write it in Haskell 00:57:52 * adu <3 Haskell 00:58:05 nortti_: yes actually, good point. 00:58:20 But doesn't it have to be in C++ if you want to write a LLVM backend? 00:58:29 so your original expression would produce Ly.foo 00:58:41 > log (1/81) 00:58:42 -4.394449154672439 00:58:46 because x would get bound to the list (bar baz) 00:58:47 > log 10 00:58:48 2.302585092994046 00:58:55 why am i taking so long to do this 00:58:56 adu: you want to write haskell with zzo38? how very brave of you. 00:58:56 urgh 00:59:01 ... I think 00:59:06 zzo38: that's only if you want to use their libraries, there are other ways of getting LLVM bytecode dumps 00:59:18 soundnfury: how does your MAP work? it has no checking for LISt being null 00:59:27 > 0.25 * ((log (1/81))/(log 10)) 00:59:28 -0.47712125471966244 00:59:37 and those LLVM bytecode dumps are all you need, you really don't need the libraries 00:59:53 nortti_: Answer: it doesn't 00:59:55 work, that is 01:00:08 because, as I think I mentioned, I've been making this dialect up as I go along 01:00:21 cuz if anyone really wanted to compile LLVM to MMIX, then they probably know how to do clang -o stuff, and cat a file 01:00:22 adu: Yes I know you can use LLVM bytecode dumps with anything (I have even written a program in C to read them once). But I thought you needed the libraries too for something; well, if you don't then now I know better 01:00:28 and when I wrote that example line in my notes, I hadn't defined any conditionals yet 01:01:00 > logBase 10 (1/81) -- *cough* 01:01:03 -1.9084850188786497 01:01:10 zzo38: there are C++ representations but text and binary should be good enough interfaces 01:01:38 zzo38: or did you mean compile MMIX=>LLVM? 01:01:53 There is already a compiler to compile C to MMIX (GCC does this); but if it is not C then you need LLVM->MMIX 01:02:01 adu: No, I mean compile a LLVM code into MMIX binary. 01:02:09 soundnfury: for my lisp implementations I use dialecr I call LIS because of my first lisp interpreter was names lis.py 01:02:11 ok, just checking 01:02:25 heh 01:02:44 I think I'd choose to use short-circuiting AND in my MAP 01:02:45 so... 01:02:54 adu: zzo38: i think there is at least one haskell library binding for llvm too 01:03:02 (Note: Haskell codes that I write tend to be different from other Haskell codes.) 01:03:03 -!- itidus21 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:03:29 (SET MAP (LAMBDA LISt (AND LISt (LAMBDA FN (CONS (FN (CAR LISt)) (MAP (CDR LISt) FN)))))) 01:03:42 that way (MAP NIL) is NIL 01:04:42 and as for the question about ((f x) y) versus (f x y), I've been changing my mind back and forth about that ever since I started 01:04:52 why not just use if? 01:05:02 AND is cuter 01:05:13 zzo38: www.lugod.org/presentations/Haskell_LLVM.pdf 01:05:16 * soundnfury comes from a C background 01:06:08 adu: Why do they all have to be presentations? 01:06:19 I thought you came from python background. and was used in place of if in some older python programs 01:06:39 here's another representative line: (set WHIle (lambda f (lambda g (and f (or g (WHIle f g)))))) 01:06:51 then python got (true if condition else false) 01:06:52 oerjan: oh zzo38's "Note", is that what you meant by "brave"? 01:07:47 soundnfury: where does g get executed? 01:07:48 nortti_: that's because python is /weird/. 01:08:27 I don't know. It's 2AM and I give up on Lisp for tonight 01:10:09 soundnfury: should it be (set WHIle (lambda f (lambda g (and f (or (eval g) (WHIle f g)))))) 01:10:44 soundnfury: * (set WHIle (lambda f (lambda g (and (eval f) (or (eval g) (WHIle f g)))))) 01:11:36 or is your lisp variant call-by-name? 01:13:31 Umm... I'm not entirely sure 01:13:55 My plan is to implement it first, then experiment with the implementation to see how it behaves, and maybe change the spec to match :S 01:14:21 This might not be the most successful project I've ever attempted 01:14:28 adu: Perhaps you tell me if you like or hate my Haskell codes; one program I wrote is the "dvi-processing" library. 01:15:25 zzo38: ok, I wrote language-go 01:16:54 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:17:01 zzo38: looks well documented to me 01:17:05 They say it won't build 01:17:07 and idiomatic 01:17:49 "They"? 01:17:55 adu: yeah :P 01:19:25 Why do you say it is idiotic? Do you mean mine or yours? If you mean yours, I agree because they say it won't build. 01:19:52 idio_ma_tic *cough* 01:19:55 zzo38: "idiomatic" means it's good 01:20:07 it means it fits in with the style of the Haskell community 01:20:41 zzo38: oh mine won't build 01:20:47 I haven't updated it in a while 01:21:00 I will fix by 2013 01:21:05 OK 01:21:19 "idiomatic" and "good" are not completely equivalent, but for the purposes of creating non-write-only code it's a plus. 01:21:46 That's why I write idiomatic PHP. 01:21:56 * adu *shudders* 01:22:03 it helps if people can read the code you're writing. idioms are things that are (more or less) universally readable to anyone with knowledge of the language. 01:22:16 Well, some people hate my "dvi-processing" program, because I use explicit {;}, because I do not use do-notation, because they prefer PDF over DVI, because ... 01:22:33 bla bla bla 01:22:34 zzo38 has many enemies. 01:23:19 zzo38: haters gonna hate 01:23:21 If you want to make enemies, try to change TeX conventions. 01:24:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:24:28 If you like this program, that is good. 01:26:09 Phantom_Hoover: like scribble? 01:26:25 I'm going to say 'yes'. 01:26:28 Yes. 01:26:53 \f[x]{y} <= TeX notation 01:27:00 @f[x]{y} <= Scribble notation 01:27:14 radical 01:27:20 o yeah 01:27:40 sorry no, this is too new and exciting for me 01:27:45 i need to have a cold bath 01:27:50 hahaha 01:28:08 In TeX you can change the category codes whatever you want, including part way through a file. This may be useful when you want to load external files which are stored in a different format. 01:28:25 http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/ 01:32:04 I have written some things with TeX, too. 01:33:41 Including: chess, Dungeons&Dragons, a program to include pictures on the page, a program to make binary specials, and this code-golf: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye 01:33:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:34:14 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:35:45 * soundnfury wonders if http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html might inspire any esolangs 01:35:48 (or already has...?) 01:42:10 Zeno machines are a fairly old way of getting around the halting problem. 01:42:42 So we can split any infinite stream of bits into two infinite streams by separating the odd bits from the even bits. Each of those streams, in turn, can be split. And so on - so we can have a binary tree of bit streams, all of which can fit in the Machine's memory without interfering with one another. 01:43:12 FWIW that doesn't lead to a binary stream, it leads to each bitstream having one bit at a finite index. 01:43:19 *binary tree 01:46:55 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 01:59:18 I think he possibly meant a binary tree of bits 01:59:39 but he came up with a better system anyway 02:01:16 http://esolangs.org/wiki/V 02:02:52 -!- Canaimero-15d7 has joined. 02:03:17 -!- Patashu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:03:40 -!- Patashu has joined. 02:04:27 -!- itidus21 has joined. 02:07:01 -!- Canaimero-15d7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:07:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:19:36 Hmm... I've had another language idea, and after a little investigation I've realised that the only way to make loops is with quines 02:20:01 it's a stack-based language, and instead of an "output" instruction it has an "append to the program" instruction 02:20:08 execution ceases when you run out of program 02:20:28 every instruction is a single character 02:20:34 but not every character is an instruction 02:20:39 those that aren't, get output 02:20:56 We can't say "Hello World" because that's got two 'o's and a 'd' in, both of which are instructions 02:21:13 but a similar program (and quine!) is: 'Sup, Earth 02:21:45 I'm now trying to write the nearest I can get to a cat program, which is one that reads in integers and writes out their binary expansions 02:22:33 so far I've got: ?`O`*`7`4`D`*`7`4`K`*`7`4`+`1`!`/`2`o`+`+`1`*`9`8`*`6`&`1`d74*D74*O 02:22:54 where "`x" is shorthand for "an arithmetic expression producing the ASCII value of 'x'" 02:26:33 Want to write an IF statement? Shove your body code onto the stack, turn your condition into (length of body or 0), remove that many items from the stack, output an appropriate number of items from the stack. Weep. 02:34:29 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:34:34 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:35:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:41:33 -!- nortti- has joined. 02:47:06 -!- kallisti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:44 -!- kallisti has joined. 02:47:44 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 02:47:44 -!- kallisti has joined. 02:50:15 -!- itidus20 has joined. 02:51:04 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:51:06 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:55:57 Here we go... ?`O`*`-`+`1`!`f`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`1`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`K`*`+`1`!`f`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`D`*`*`1`7`7`I77*D77*O 02:56:07 reads a number and prints it out in unary 02:56:14 (caution: may not work) 02:56:34 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 03:15:38 I have reformatted the GPLv3 (for use in typeset documents), but made no modification to its text. Is this OK? 03:26:46 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 04:00:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:01:53 * itidus21 realizes he is reading a description of what is essentially a commandline driven paint program. 04:02:31 zzo38: I think so, but IANAGNUL 04:12:15 -!- edwardk has joined. 04:12:57 What commandline driven paint program? 04:19:31 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:19:52 YES! IT WORKS! ?`O`*`7`4`K`*`+`1`!`!`f`+`2`d`*`2`*`7`4`D`*`7`4`~`-`1`~`I74*D74*O 04:20:15 preprocessed form: 04:20:17 ?89*7+49*6+69*1+59*7+89*3+49*6+49*7+59*4+39*6+39*6+8d*1*49*2++49*7+59*5+8d*1*49*0++49*6+59*5+49*6+69*1+59*7+79*5+49*6+69*1+59*7+8d*1*69*8++59*0+59*4+8d*1*69*8++89*1+74*D74*O 04:20:18 Unknown command, try @list 04:21:03 -!- elliott has joined. 04:21:12 let's take an opportunity to honour the contributions of "R. Koot" to the wiki 04:21:18 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:R._Koot 04:21:19 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Fuckfuck&diff=prev&oldid=6135 04:21:22 bye 04:21:22 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 04:22:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 04:27:34 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:28:30 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 04:30:00 -!- ogrom has joined. 04:42:03 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:44:13 monqy: what happened to your nose ! 04:44:29 what nose 04:44:53 : ( 04:47:00 it ran 04:47:19 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:52:45 How does it smell? 04:52:52 Terrible! 04:56:07 -!- ssue has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:00:15 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 05:22:03 -!- Otas has joined. 05:29:48 my terminal should have a keybind 05:30:02 that emulates yes 05:30:16 so I can immediately start confirming everything mid command invocation 05:32:33 I think that's activated by repeatedly pressing the y key as long as you want it to be active. 05:32:43 Well, y-enter. But anyway. 05:33:46 despite my most intense longing 05:33:51 I am not a yes emulator 05:34:06 because I feel discomfort in the task. 05:34:18 whereas a true yes emulator is without concern. 05:35:01 i don't think it's possible to specify concerns 05:35:21 your a concern. 05:36:08 it's a turing test kind of thing 05:36:42 I wish CPAN didn't test things. 05:36:50 it takes so long. :( 05:38:24 But then you would be UNCERTAIN. 05:38:33 i mean, it's not for me to say if caged chickens suffer waiting for me to eat them 05:39:07 the chicken parts of my brain understand chicken-suffering 05:39:10 and say that they do. 05:39:10 nor whether the errand boy's day is ruined by running my errands 05:40:01 that's a more less certain situation. 05:40:05 yes, more less. 05:40:13 it has more of less. 05:40:29 well, i try to be kind to the people who sort recyclables.. 05:40:41 how is that even related to the last thing you said. 05:41:08 its possible to make a real mess of what you put in the recycling bin 05:41:18 and the person who later has to sort it in a factory has to deal with the mess 05:41:37 factories are places where people make good money (?????????) 05:41:41 * kallisti says something 05:41:53 * kallisti says something else with topics loosely derived from the last thing said. 05:41:56 * kallisti ????? 05:41:57 * kallisti profits 05:42:20 my point is, do you really care if an original yes machine suffers discomfort? 05:42:27 no 05:42:43 ALL OF MY CODE CAN SUFFER. 05:44:03 i just don't like a specification based upon the discomfort of the system/machine 05:44:14 i love it.. 05:45:16 I'm mostly focused on avoiding my own discomfort.. 05:45:28 the jains argue it is better to pick a single fruit off a tree, than to shake the tree causing several fruit to fall. since you only intend to eat 1 05:46:18 <-- having another "crazy" day 05:46:30 so it's better to type yes by hand, than to have an infinite loop spam a buffer as fast as possible? 05:46:40 because the second is wasteful? 05:47:54 :-s 05:48:12 refer to channel topic 05:48:50 moo 05:50:45 http://gallery.trupela.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Moo.jpg 05:51:34 `apt-get moo 05:51:46 ​(__) \ (oo) \ /------\/ \ / | || \ * /\---/\ \ ~~ ~~ \ ...."Have you mooed today?"... \ W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) 05:52:01 The line breaks kind of mess that up. 05:52:20 anything to save me from my topic 05:52:25 -!- ssue has joined. 05:52:36 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 05:52:42 well, I think I can safely conclude that Eniuq /is/ difficult to program in 05:53:02 given that I've been working on my "print a number in unary" program for the last three hours 05:53:06 and it still doesn't work properly 05:53:20 soundnfury: sounds like it could be a hit then 05:54:21 indeed 05:54:24 Going purely on logic, and not as an any sort of assessment of personal skills or anything, but I don't think that's an entirely safe conclusion; it could always be just you. 05:54:46 http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/eniuq_0.1.src.tar.gz 05:54:48 fizzie: good point 05:55:01 Several things to note: 05:55:12 I'd have a look but I have to be in a train in twenty minutes or so. :/ 05:55:18 * the interpreter isn't anywhere near finished - many of the operators remain unimplemented 05:55:29 * there isn't any accompanying documentation 05:56:10 * the one program supplied doesn't exit cleanly; when it's done it produces a stack underflow error 05:56:26 * programs have to be run through the preprocessor `epp' by hand 05:57:14 clean exit is defined by stack underflow! 05:57:20 heh 05:57:32 just kidding.......... 05:57:51 the less input i have on actual serious esolangs the better 05:58:13 crazy input is *welcome* 05:58:22 but I already have a defined clean exit... 05:58:31 "empty instruction queue" 06:00:15 itidus21 is not yet learned in the ways of computer programming 06:11:36 I made the TeX calendar to include the preset month/weekday names of: \EnglishNames \CharlemagneNames \GermanNames \JulianNames \OldTurkmenNames \NewTurkmenNames \OldZorkNames \NewZorkNames 06:15:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:15:26 For preset list of special days you can use: \DiscordianTraditional \DiscordianModern \CanadaNationwideStatutoryHolidays \CanadaCommon \Alberta \BritishColumbia \Manitoba \NorthwestTerritories \Nunavut \Ontario \PrinceEdwardIsland \Saskatchewan \Yukon \UnitedStates \Japan 06:16:20 Is there any sun/moon ephemeris data that can be used with TeX? 06:29:09 -!- ion has joined. 06:33:41 -!- rolebot has joined. 06:36:17 -!- Otas has quit (Quit: Page closed). 06:38:44 $help 06:39:30 rolebot: help 06:39:51 hm 06:43:59 $frink 2 + 2 06:44:26 oh 06:44:31 +q? 06:45:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Sorry, I quit.). 06:48:46 http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/eniuq_0.2.src.tar.gz 06:48:52 * all operators now implemented 06:49:00 * documentation has been written! 06:49:42 -!- MoALTz has joined. 06:51:01 (oh, in case anyone hasn't figured it out, "eniuq" is "quine" backwards) 06:51:39 -!- rolebot has quit (Quit: manual shutdown by kallisti). 06:52:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:52:39 -!- rolebot has joined. 06:52:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:52:45 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:10:13 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 07:17:09 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb). 07:29:13 -!- MoALTz has joined. 07:37:21 Yay, I've managed to make a version of unary.en that exits cleanly! 07:37:57 Unfortunately, if you input 0 or 1 you get nearly 2^32 digits output :( 07:38:29 but who cares, it works, and it's self-modifying quining code 07:39:10 the code: ?1-`+`3`*`4`8`k`D`+`3`*`4`8`+`*`*`3`d`5`*`4`+`1`!`f`+`3`*`4`8`~`-`1`~`I48*2+D48*2+O`Oo 07:55:46 does histogram ever mean a set of numbers independant of it's means of display? 07:56:20 it seems pretty obvious that it does based on a google result 08:02:55 Um, no, it doesn't 08:03:07 anyone who is using it to mean that is *wrong* 08:03:14 ok cool 08:03:18 ^_^ 08:03:27 and if they're appearing in a google result, then they must be *wrong on the internet* 08:04:26 its probably just me misinterpreting 08:05:31 heh 08:05:58 im doing something which to my mind is actually pretty cool 08:06:12 wossat? 08:07:47 disclaimer: i have never been employed in I.T., never completed a degree, no signifigant knowledge of mathematics, no real understanding of functional programming 08:08:18 my main interest is things related to computer games 08:08:31 so, i'm trying to think up a really clever 2d engine 08:09:01 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:09:54 You could implement your game in Befunge... 08:10:01 that's already /got/ a 2d engine ;) 08:10:44 -!- mtve has joined. 08:15:53 brb 08:29:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:54:17 update to Eniuq; version 0.3 now out 08:54:28 http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/eniuq_0.3.src.tar.gz 08:55:07 * soundnfury is probably not up to the task of determining its computational class 08:55:29 it looks like it /should/ be TC, but I'm not good enough at writing quinescent code 08:57:55 -!- AnotherTest has left. 08:58:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:09:19 brb he says 09:33:53 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:34:03 -!- augur has joined. 10:04:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:54:19 -!- stlangbot has joined. 10:54:24 stlangbot: undf 65 10:54:24 [mroman] iiisdsi 10:54:28 stlangbot: dfa iiisdsi 10:54:28 [mroman] [] 10:54:30 stlangbot: dfa iiisdsio 10:54:30 [mroman] [65] 10:54:36 damn. 10:54:38 stlangbot: die 10:54:38 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 10:55:06 -!- stlangbot has joined. 10:55:14 stlangbot: dfa iiisdsio 10:55:16 [mroman] 'A' 10:56:18 stlangbot: df iiisdsio 10:56:19 [mroman] [65] 10:57:00 stlangbot: stlang M .0III<+*D<+*I \ 10:57:00 [mroman] [65.0] 10:59:04 stlangbot: die 10:59:04 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 11:05:57 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:06:10 stlangbot: dfc iiisds 11:06:11 [mroman] M .0III<+*D<+* \ 11:12:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:27:22 Phantom_Hoover: stop being so stupid. 11:27:32 your arguments are full of shit and you know it. 11:28:13 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:28:57 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:29:09 stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[ 11:29:10 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:29:55 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:29:56 stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[ 11:29:57 [mroman] AA 11:30:29 stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[d 11:30:29 [mroman] Timeout!ATimeout!Timeout!AATimeout!Timeout!ATimeout!Timeout!AAATimeout!ATimeout!Timeout!AATimeout!Timeout!ATimeout!Timeout! 11:31:50 stlangbot: die 11:31:50 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit). 11:33:45 -!- stlangbot has joined. 11:33:48 stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[d 11:33:49 [mroman] Timeout! 11:33:55 stlangbot: p 0+++,*-*+@[d 11:33:55 [mroman] AAAAAAAAAAA 11:34:04 stlangbot: p 0+,++*-*+@[d 11:34:04 [mroman] A 11:34:18 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:34:30 stlangbot: p 0[+++,*-*+@[d 11:34:31 [mroman] Timeout! 11:34:55 stlangbot: p [+++*-*+@ 11:34:56 [mroman] AA 11:35:11 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:35:44 stlangbot: p [+[++*-*+@@ 11:35:45 [mroman] Timeout! 11:35:55 -!- nortti has joined. 11:37:06 stlangbot: p +[++*-*+@@ 11:37:08 [mroman] âAA 11:38:29 -!- nortti has quit (Client Quit). 11:38:36 stlangbot: p +++*-*+@^+@v@ 11:38:37 [mroman] ABA 11:38:58 -!- nortti has joined. 11:41:52 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:42:18 http://codepad.org/qpPFtoyh <- pretty sucky to produce loops :( 11:50:07 -!- MoALTz has joined. 11:51:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:52:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:02:25 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:14:30 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:15:33 point me to very limited text mode browser with no or very few dependencies 12:16:35 wget? ;P 12:16:58 telnet 80? 12:17:12 netcat? 12:17:47 if you can't Do Protocol and parse HTML manually, you shouldn't be using the Web :P 12:17:53 I can 12:17:58 Good 12:18:14 I'm just tired of doind it while using netbsd 12:18:30 (wget and nc are not installed by default btw) 12:18:42 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:18:47 BSD := Broken or Seriously Damaged 12:19:10 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:19:23 http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/os_cars.jpg 12:19:30 nortti: since people are all too clever, there is a general lack of half-baked applications 12:20:11 ah, lolbeos 12:20:31 nortti: you made a time machine out of a delorean? 12:20:32 I'd want something like lynx -dump but without all of the dependecies lynx has 12:20:44 also, I guess RISC OS would be a Rover 12:20:51 itidus21: no? why do you ask? 12:20:54 soundnfury: why? 12:21:02 s/no?/no./ 12:21:32 it's British and the company that made it doesn't exist any more 12:21:36 life is too short to not ask 12:22:26 Microsoft BOB would be a kid's tricycle 12:22:32 soundnfury: but RISC OS is still developed 12:22:39 (Lol, Bob. Lol.) 12:22:57 nortti: perhaps so, but Acorn Computers aren't the ones developing it 12:23:01 because they don't exist 12:23:20 nortti: in other words, all apps have feature creep 12:23:59 soundnfury: true. but there are still new versions of it. risc os open is developing port for raspi 12:24:51 basically, it would be too easy to write the app you want 12:24:56 so noone bothers 12:24:57 itidus21: Zawinski's Law of Software Envelopment 12:26:11 1)download html page from specified url. 2)allow viewing of the text with tags hidden. 3) if click on a link, goto (1) 12:26:19 i think thats all you want 12:27:26 either that or 1)download html page from specified url. 2)allow viewing of the text with tags hidden and links having number after them 3) display list of numbers and list at the botom 12:27:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 12:28:06 nortti: yes.. i actually thought of that earlier :D .. should have stuck with it 12:29:05 except i didnt think of the numbers 12:30:56 ah yes, but HTML isn't that simple, because SGML has some brain-damage 12:31:04 like 12:31:12 that's equivalent to foo 12:31:22 Good old SGML. 12:31:36 * itidus21 blinks 12:31:41 Firefox does not support SGML though. 12:31:46 Not fully, at least. 12:31:48 Why couldn't Tim Berners-Lee have used sexps instead? 12:32:32 you mean, you actually have to check for bar in .. 12:32:45 terrible.. 12:32:50 ugh 12:33:03 keep it a secret 12:33:07 itidus21: Shorttags. 12:33:14 augur, wait are you being jokingly hostile 12:33:16 if noone knows, it won't get used 12:33:37 no. 12:33:40 and null end tags. 12:33:45 O... K.... 12:34:04 itidus21: what if they use it accidentally 12:34:05 I what the fuck it that? 12:35:58 I emphatically hope they don't 12:36:22 that is horrible 12:38:37 SExp for HTML would have been awesome. 12:38:38 i saved tag_length+2 characters that way.. as in "em"+"<>" = 4 12:38:51 That could have lead to use Lisp instead of Javascript. 12:38:57 Which also would have been awesome :) 12:39:32 true 12:39:49 you know, for all those non-mnemonic html tags where saving space matters 12:40:01 well we can hope for www 2.0 to use sexpr and lisp 12:40:19 like img, div, em, u, li, ol, tr, td 12:40:46 isn't u depreciated? 12:41:10 can you nest a tag within a itidus21: don't think so 12:42:28 but don't quote me 12:42:40 (escape me instead, it's simpler to implement) 12:42:55 i really don't see the point 12:43:25 mroman, nortti: one of my occasional projects is to try and develop a sexpr+lisp replacement for html+js. But it's slow going 12:43:47 and convincing the world to change would be infinitely difficult 12:43:57 :) 12:44:27 soundnfury: I'm using gopher. if it is public I'll also serve my webpages in that format 12:44:44 Ooh, gopher! 12:44:45 No idea @nest 12:44:59 my brother is working on a gopher client for the ZX Spectrum 12:45:14 because obsolete? what's that? 12:45:27 yes 12:45:31 they can be nested. 12:45:35 soundnfury: cool. does zx spectrum have tcp/ip stack? 12:45:45

12:45:50 soundnfury: that refering to your project 12:45:52 *hope 12:45:54 is valid. 12:46:01 nortti: It does now! http://spectrum.alioth.net 12:46:39 soundnfury: awesome. I'm thinking of getting rrnet card for my c64 12:47:23 I'm fatI'm cursive is also valid sgml. 12:47:24 to hell with, blah 12:47:57 but I'm not sure anymore how sgml treats omittags exactly. 12:48:07 but essentially the parser decides from context where a tag ends :) 12:48:16 nortti: Commode 64? HEATHEN! 12:49:15 soundnfury: why? 12:49:39

  1. hello<>world<>where<>are<>you is also pretty nasty. 12:49:45 but legal. 12:50:52 http://www.is-thought.co.uk/book/sgml-9.htm 12:50:54 btw ;) 12:50:57 nortti: meh, hysterical raisins 12:51:09 Saving bytes is precious! 12:51:13 also: LLML: http://jttlov.no-ip.org/projects/llml/index.htm 12:51:19 it's kinda stalled at the moment 12:51:23 it's like golfing...! 12:51:26 a few things about it are definitely wrong 12:52:27 -!- oonbotti has joined. 12:53:28 soundnfury: like? 12:54:25 well, having attributes is wrong 12:54:40 instead of ((a (href /foo/bar)) link text) 12:54:55 it should be something like (href /foo/bar (a link text)) 12:55:03 true 12:55:23 * soundnfury has been experimenting with various approaches and hasn't settled on the perfect answer yet 12:55:25 or maybe (a /foo/bar (link text)) 12:55:55 or (a /foo/bar link text) 12:56:00 in that case, yes 12:56:19 how so? 12:56:22 href is an attribute of a 12:56:36 mroman: they should be orthogonal 12:56:39 (href /foo/bar (a)) looks like it is in the wrong order. 12:56:56 (a) shouldn't need to exist at all 12:57:02 soundnfury: or maybe like (a ((href /foo/bar)) link text) 12:57:09 I'd prefer shortcuts like 12:57:21 (ahref ...) 12:57:31 every tag should essentially apply a modifier to its content 12:57:54 > anchor ! [href "foo"] 12:57:54 what do you mean? 12:57:55 Not in scope: `anchor'Not in scope: `href' 12:58:02 so (img /foo.png alt text (em with an emphasised bit)) 12:58:18 tags should take a fixed number of non-text-content arguments 12:59:42 and instead of (for instance) having the "class" attribute for any tag, you just have a (class classname ...) tag 12:59:46 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 12:59:48 (a (href "foo.lisp") (p (class "no-ident") "Hello!")) 12:59:52 similarly for "id" etc. 12:59:56 (tag attributes contents) 13:00:43 soundnfury: so basicaly arguments are written before the tag? 13:00:56 mroman: (a "foo.lisp" (class "no-ident" (p "Hello!"))) 13:01:03 nortti: kinda 13:01:45 I wouldn't just assume that every a has a href. 13:02:04 mroman: well, it wouldn't be called (a) 13:02:11 it'd probably be called (href) 13:02:35 because the other use for an (a) is fragment identifiers, for which you'd use (id) 13:03:23 (href #somewhere (u (strong link) to somewhere)) (id somewhere (em this is somewhere)) 13:04:07 == bar baz 13:05:11 that seems pretty good idea actually 13:05:50 are there any specifications? if there are I can write simple parser/conversion tool 13:07:28 No spec yet 13:07:34 only got as far as this: http://pastebin.com/Sp3srYxJ 13:08:05 it's just a sample of the kind of thing I want the language to be able to handle 13:08:20 things to note: 13:09:18 how does the if work? is it that not null if true, null is false? 13:09:56 headings have content, so (h1 (. Top Level Heading) Stuff under that heading) 13:10:01 nortti: yes 13:10:08 only problem: how to use ( and ) 13:10:14 \( and \) 13:10:28 oh. and \ is \\ ? 13:10:30 (admittedly it can be a pain in the ass remembering to use them) 13:10:32 yes 13:11:06 maybe if we use m exspressions... 13:11:12 ? 13:11:23 you don't know mexprs? 13:11:36 they are part of lisp history 13:12:46 I vaguely recalled them but couldn't remember much about them 13:12:56 having looked them up, I realise why 13:13:21 - they're pointless 13:13:58 using sexprs with { and } in place of ( and ) would be easier in web pages 13:14:07 yeah, that's a good idea 13:14:17 or even < and >, because people are used to escaping those 13:14:36 I'll f 13:14:51 *go to write my own harkup language 13:16:14 All the world's a LispM,nAnd all the men and women merely conses:nThey have their cdrs and their cars;nAnd one man in his time evals many sexprs,nHis acts being seven lists. 13:16:30 :P 13:22:30 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 13:25:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:28:55 Blog's not a word? 13:29:09 HERETIC! 13:29:11 I don't consider it one. 13:29:36 It's just so /ugly/, in phonotactic terms. 13:29:52 whar about phlog? 13:30:18 yeuch! 13:30:25 that's reminiscent of phlogiston 13:30:50 phlog=gopher blog 13:31:04 still yeuch! 13:31:08 although props for gophering 13:41:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:42:11 -!- ogrom has joined. 13:44:07 -!- Guest8000 has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero). 14:05:20 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 14:14:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:15:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:17:00 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:24:02 ok. now I have written specs of my own s-expr based markup language 14:26:42 Now write a parser using parsec for it. 14:27:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:27:37 nah. I don't want to require any dependecies 14:28:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:38:15 hmm. I started building of lynx in 15:20 and it has now build the dependencies 14:38:41 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 14:39:28 but to be fair I had to compile gmake and other utilities like that before it could be compiled 14:42:02 (I am building it on netbsd on virtual machine) 15:04:18 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:09:24 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 15:12:16 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:14:37 -!- oonbotti has joined. 15:14:54 $help 15:15:56 -!- kallisti has joined. 15:33:40 yay. I just got another nokia 1610 15:43:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:49:15 Hello! 16:18:47 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello \s : 'Taneb! : \ 16:18:47 [mroman] [['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ' ', 'Taneb!']] 16:18:58 :) 16:19:03 huh. 16:19:23 stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello \s : 'Taneb! : concat \ 16:19:23 [mroman] ['Hello Taneb!'] 16:19:32 Damn python strings not lists :( 16:19:42 I'm very disappointed of python right now. 16:19:56 You can treat a string as a list 16:19:57 like 16:20:03 for e in "somestring": foo.append(e) 16:20:08 but foo is not a string anymore. 16:20:15 it's a list of strings. 16:20:41 I switched to Haskell shortly after joining this channel 16:20:45 It has that effect on you 16:20:59 I learned haskell a while ago. 16:21:08 During my apprenticeship as an IT supporter. 16:23:02 Not that it would have had anything to do with that job but... 16:23:34 I probably ought to finish PietBot 16:23:47 I probably ought to find PietBot 16:23:50 I learned it anyway at home :) 16:23:54 :) 16:24:35 I think it's possible to get from the wikipedia page on Perl to our wiki in four clicks 16:25:01 Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmkdIeImbWk 16:25:15 oh wait 16:25:18 no that's not it. 16:26:13 Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pztDbROyspk 16:26:14 That's it. 16:26:38 Oh, we do that for fun 16:26:44 I'm quite good at it 16:28:17 Taneb: You can get there with 3 clicks. 16:28:52 on Perl -> 'obfuscated code' -> 'Esoteric programming language' -> 'Esolang' 16:29:00 Oh yes 16:30:09 @ping 16:30:09 Okay, this isn't good 16:30:09 pong 16:30:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IL04_109.gif 16:30:53 I once went into a very long game late, and still won 16:30:56 Oh wow that is beautiful. 16:31:12 (It's a single constituency in Illinois.) 16:32:01 I've seen that 16:33:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high-level_programming_language 16:33:23 *very* high-level o_O 16:33:47 goal-oriented programming language 16:34:03 Sounds like buzzword bullshit. 16:35:19 So... it's basically just a scripting language built into an application? 16:36:44 Phantom__Hoover: No! 16:36:51 It's a VERY high-level language. 16:37:09 but yes. 16:37:15 It's just an embedded scripting language. 16:37:44 With functions specific to an application. 16:38:03 Which according to WP makes it *very* high-level. 16:38:57 The references there even suck. 16:39:13 I guess the term would mean a language completely divorced from the hardware it's running on? 16:39:18 Hey, that applies to most esolangs! 16:40:31 Isn't that true for almost any interpreted language as well? 16:41:10 Eh, they generally have some form of hardware interface so you can actually use them. 16:56:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:07:08 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:25:54 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:34:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:38:35 stlangbot: undf 999 17:38:37 [mroman] iiiiiisddddsddddddddddddddddddddddddd 17:38:50 > undf 999 17:38:52 Not in scope: `undf' 17:39:29 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 17:40:20 stlangbot: undf 1024 17:40:21 [mroman] iiiiiisdddds 17:40:29 stlangbot: undf 1000 17:40:30 [mroman] iiiiiisddddsdddddddddddddddddddddddd 17:40:56 stlangbot: undf 13 17:40:57 [mroman] iissddd 17:41:08 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:42:16 stlangbot: die 17:42:17 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!). 17:59:34 Is Opera less of a memory hog than Chrome? 18:07:09 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:35:04 Sgeo: always was 18:37:47 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:38:12 Hello 19:03:30 Taneb, hi 19:11:47 -!- edwardk has joined. 19:12:08 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:20:16 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 19:20:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:32:48 -!- Vorpal has joined. 19:33:34 fuck yeah. I installed lynx 19:33:45 :) 19:34:01 well, that was fun. / remounted ro. Seems to have been a kernel bug rather than disk issue though. Will run memtest on it tonight as well. 19:34:09 (the disk is fine as far as I can tell) 19:35:00 compiling started around 15:40 19:35:14 it is now 22:35 here 19:35:21 nortti, is it still not done? 19:35:22 wtf 19:35:27 what are you compiling? 19:35:38 it is done now. lynx 19:35:57 but it had to compile dependecies and gmake 19:36:29 also the virtual machine netbsd is running is about as fast as 486 19:37:00 nortti, what virtual machine? qemu? 19:37:29 yes 19:39:37 what!? there are binary packages for netbsd? 19:40:39 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 19:41:25 okay. that was 7 hours of wasted time 19:50:27 nortti, XD 19:50:40 Gregor: where is ircII located in pkgsrc? 19:51:04 forget it 19:51:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:23:33 kallisti: when I try to visit spirity.org I get "The plain HTTP request was sent to HTTPS port" error 20:23:55 Wow, a 400 error 20:24:14 That's another one for my collection 20:24:19 nortti: ha. I /just/ attempted to set up HTTPS 20:25:30 someone in #nginx told me I could just drop the HTTPs setting into a server block. 20:27:05 should be fixed now 20:27:24 Looks like an interesting site 20:27:35 yeah it's the next big thing on the internet. 20:27:40 :) 20:27:57 wow. that site is full of content 20:29:08 so I just googled "welcome to nginx" 20:29:13 apparently there's a "welcome to nginx" virus. 20:29:32 http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Internet-Security-Norton/Help-with-quot-Welcome-to-nginx-quot/td-p/730142 20:32:44 monqy: https://spirity.org/ 20:33:38 -!- calamari has joined. 20:38:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:39:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:43:55 Is there any sun and moon ephemeris usable with TeX? 20:46:42 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:59:12 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:11:48 Hmm 21:20:36 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: bbl). 21:32:45 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 21:33:18 -!- oonbotti has joined. 21:42:32 That's another one for my collection 21:42:38 you collect HTTP errors? 21:42:44 I'd like to, one day 21:42:52 Ever since I saw a 302 error 21:43:00 Taneb, 302, which one is that? 21:43:27 Was it a 302? 21:43:27 is that the "I'm not a teapot" error? 21:43:34 I saw a weird one 21:43:37 olsner, that's 418 21:44:04 302 Found 21:44:08 okay? 21:44:29 yeah. it is kinda weird error message 21:44:36 It's a redirect. 21:44:39 yeah 21:44:43 It means your resource has been found, it just doesn't happen to be here. 21:44:50 Gregor, well obviously, all 3xx are redirects after all 21:45:06 I was at school, which uses IE7, I think 21:45:10 anyway it seems 303 See Other and 307 Temporary Redirect have replaced 302 Found 21:45:15 according to wikipedia 21:45:23 It may have been a 502 or something 21:45:29 I neglected to write it down 21:45:36 502 Bad Gateway 21:45:41 that happens sometimes 21:45:49 usually a server being overloaded 21:47:00 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 21:52:03 -!- oonbotti has joined. 21:55:08 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:55:32 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 21:59:13 i'll just keep waiting for a 451 error 21:59:26 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:32:45 Goodnight 22:32:48 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:35:29 -!- itidus20 has joined. 22:38:16 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:39:37 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 22:45:09 oerjan, I hope I never see that one 22:45:37 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 22:45:58 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:51:50 huh subversion is an apache project? What? 22:52:03 I could have sworn it was a tigris.org project? 22:52:26 wtf? 22:53:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:54:11 since when has subversion been an apache project? 22:55:07 since it was subverted 22:55:21 oh right, it used to be a tigris.org project, as I thought. I just found the old subversion bug tracker on there 22:55:30 so I wasn't going insane then. Phew. 22:55:52 Everything is Apache these days. 22:56:04 seems it has been an apache project since 2009 though 22:56:08 They even have a web server. 22:56:09 how did I not notice that... 23:12:11 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 23:12:50 I suddenly have a strange urge to write a compiler. 23:14:51 kallisti_: write one then 23:15:01 not sure what to compile, or what to compile it to. 23:16:35 -!- itidus20 has joined. 23:16:37 kallisti_: compile Befunge-93 to Eniuq 23:17:01 and write the compiler in Perl 23:17:20 *without* using a single regex, bwahahaha 23:17:31 impossible 23:17:55 -!- kallisti_ has changed nick to kallisti. 23:18:18 or compile Awk to Piet 23:18:30 * soundnfury loves Awk 23:18:43 how about... 23:18:55 brainfuck to javascript. 23:19:18 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:19:21 kallisti, too easy 23:19:27 kallisti, unless it heavily optimises 23:19:33 yes, well, I don't have experience with compilers 23:19:36 and that's the idea. 23:19:38 can it break esotope-bfc is the question then 23:19:50 which is a pretty good brainfuck->C compiler 23:19:51 actually befunge-93 could be more interesting. 23:20:03 kallisti, befunge is self modifying, you can't compile it 23:20:32 uh, yes you can. 23:20:41 you can do threaded code sure, but you need to be able to recompile it on the fly 23:21:06 so you either need threaded code or you need a JIT 23:21:17 fizzie, was working on a befunge-98 JIT 23:21:33 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 23:22:04 I'd imagine javascript is dynamic enough to make modification not a huge issue. 23:22:11 but still an issue. 23:22:27 I don't think you can treat code as data in javascript 23:22:48 oh wait you can 23:22:51 of course. 23:22:52 JS has an eval, doesn't it? 23:22:55 yes 23:23:02 and first-class functions. 23:23:05 it's just Strongly Discouraged by security peoples 23:25:31 an inline JS extension could be fun. 23:25:34 befunge in a browser. 23:25:42 manipulate the DOM in your fungespace! 23:25:51 * kallisti will need to work on his catchphrases. 23:26:46 Could AFAX be this year's hottest web technology? 23:27:00 kallisti, you mean as a fingerprint for befunge-98? 23:27:38 possibly. I don't know how that works exactly 23:28:08 looks to be what I'm talking about 23:28:13 assign a symbol to some foreign code. 23:29:12 hm? 23:30:08 kallisti, well if you need any help with Befunge-98 implementation (which is tricky, the standard is ambiguous in several places!) I suggest you check out Deewiant's test suite Mycology. It documents the standard interpretation of Befunge-98 pretty much. 23:30:21 http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html 23:30:44 kallisti, there is a befunge-93 part of that test suite too 23:30:52 so even in befunge-93 you can use that 23:31:01 just cut out the first 25x80 23:31:09 that makes up the befunge-93 part 23:31:21 (I suggest using block selection mode in your editor) 23:32:04 ha. modular programming in befunge. 23:32:26 Well if the standard is ambiguous you might as well make an ambiguous implementation 23:32:35 Undefined behavior where-ever the standard calls for it! 23:32:40 * kallisti will need to work on his catchphrases. <-- "the befunge of DOM", hth 23:32:51 Lumpio-, well there are also some cases where the other behaviours doesn't work 23:33:07 also what should I call this? FungeScript? CoffeeFunge? FungeCoffee? 23:33:10 Lumpio-, also the standard doesn't completely work 23:33:19 the behaviour wrt t is broken 23:33:36 basically you can't avoid forkbombing a standard implementation 23:33:43 so no one implements it like that 23:34:24 ha. modular programming in befunge. <-- the fingerprint testing is kind of modular actually 23:34:32 kallisti: Hemileia, hth 23:34:48 oerjan, is that a species of fungus? 23:34:57 Hemileia vastatrix is a fungus of the order Uredinales that causes coffee rust, a disease that is devastating to coffee 23:34:58 but of course 23:35:00 oerjan, also what do you mean by "hth"? 23:35:07 "hope this helps" 23:35:10 ah 23:35:28 kallisti, I went for the boring name for my implementation: "cfunge" since it was written in C 23:35:35 I also have efunge, written in Erlang 23:35:57 how would fingerprints work with a compiler? seems difficult. 23:36:03 yes it would be 23:36:11 kallisti, remember you need a stack per letter 23:36:42 example: fingerprint AAAA defines A B and C. fingerprint BBBB defines B C and D 23:36:53 then if you load A and unload B. What do you get? 23:37:09 Turns out the A semantic from AAAA remains loaded 23:37:19 ah 23:37:53 kallisti, so basically unloading a fingerprint just pops one function pointer off the stack of each letter that it defines. 23:38:02 it seems odd to restrict fingerprints to A-Z 23:38:07 instead of say, Unicode. 23:38:17 kallisti, well, there weren't any printable ASCII characters left over 23:38:26 Vorpal: I feel like "stack" is the wrong word here. 23:38:44 kallisti, well, I implement it in C as each letter having a stack of function pointers 23:38:51 well, an array each, that is malloced 23:39:01 linked list in erlang obviously 23:39:10 ah I guess the ( ) make it work like a stack, nevermind 23:39:17 I thought you could unload fingerprints arbitrarily. 23:39:40 Vorpal: um what happens if you load AAAA, load BBBB, then unload AAAA? 23:40:14 or is that impossible 23:40:20 it is possible 23:40:24 let me work out what happens 23:41:10 oerjan, lets see.. you get: A: empty, B: AAAA semantics, C: AAAA semantics, D: BBBB semantics 23:41:18 as far as I can see 23:41:42 ...and this is according to spec? :P 23:42:16 oerjan, the spec is not very clear. But there was a lot of discussion (see logs for this channel, whenever that discussion was). There are several possible interpretations. 23:42:24 but it is the one mycology expects 23:42:53 oerjan, you could make a case for about 5 different interpretations as well 23:43:06 this is however common practise. 23:43:16 for a start, you could make a case for not keeping around pointers to unloaded fingerprints 23:43:29 oerjan, ah but you could load a fingerprint multiple times 23:43:39 what then? 23:44:36 it looks to me like each load saves the old semantics of the operation on the stack. 23:44:44 and an unload just pops back 23:44:54 CCBI and cfunge both implements it as loading a fingerprint pushing a set of function pointers onto a set of stacks. And unloading just popping whatever is on top (even if it is for a different fingerprint) 23:45:00 to whatever the old semantic-set was. 23:45:38 so it looks to me like it should be a stack of linked lists of function pointers 23:45:43 rather than a stack of function pointers. 23:45:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:45:58 or null-terminated arrays or something 23:46:04 whatever sequence you want to use. 23:46:28 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:46:43 kallisti, uh? stack of linked lists? 23:46:46 I don't get it 23:46:51 each letter has a separate stack 23:46:56 yes\ 23:46:58 (that is how I implement it) 23:48:05 ah nevermind 23:48:21 kallisti, http://sprunge.us/ePBg?c 23:48:23 it looks as though loading a new semantic onto a letter overwrites the previous. 23:48:45 I thought they would co-exist 23:48:53 on one letter 23:48:58 oh I forgot this at the start: 23:48:59 typedef void (*fingerprintOpcode)(struct s_instructionPointer * ip); 23:49:55 I'd probably use a single stack of arrays 23:50:12 with an index for each letter 23:50:26 -!- glogbackup has joined. 23:50:31 kallisti, anyway you might not want to read the cfunge source code in general. I kind of went for it being the fastest implementation at the time (and it was until CCBI2). So there are some stupid optimisations XD 23:50:50 so then a save makes a copy of the array, binds the new semantics to their respective indices in the new array, and pushes that to the stack. 23:51:15 then a restore is just a pop. 23:51:19 I should write an implementation for android 23:51:22 hm 23:51:32 maybe? 23:51:47 nah I don't like java that much, and the NDK looks painful 23:51:56 use Scala 23:51:59 and cfunge wouldn't work under a libc like the one on android 23:52:03 kallisti, eh, nah 23:52:07 I would have to learn scala 23:52:09 Clojure? 23:52:16 don't know clojure either 23:52:16 Jython? :P 23:52:19 ouch 23:52:23 stop the pain! :P 23:52:38 I'm not going for /slowest/ interpreter 23:52:55 hm I'm interested in what feeding cfunge into an android toolchain would do now... 23:53:10 I think I'll start with a javascript befunge-98 interpreter. 23:53:15 since that will be a simpler task 23:53:19 kallisti, 93 you mean? 23:53:19 and might prove useful for a compiler. 23:53:22 no 23:53:26 98 is not simple :P 23:53:29 that's fine. 23:53:37 kallisti, try implementing k for example 23:54:07 kallisti, read the spec and tell me what 8::::kkj would do 23:54:19 that is when traveling left to right 23:54:29 (delta 1,0) 23:54:48 I know cfunge doesn't work on windows. And even getting it to work under cygwin is apparently tricky, requiring disabling some fingerprints 23:55:45 I even had trouble getting it to work on openbsd. Yet it doesn't require anything except C99 and some POSIX-2001 bits 23:55:49 kallisti, ^ 23:56:26 it requires some esoteric bits of those however 23:56:38 well I think it will be easier to write in JS than in C. 23:56:42 sure 23:56:51 you don't have to deal with memory management 23:56:51 :P 23:56:59 C is not an easy language to write in 23:57:05 you can implement fingerprints as functions on the grid. 23:57:11 I have my own memory pool implementation 23:57:32 kallisti, and you probably get associative arrays :P 23:57:35 lucky bastard :P 23:57:38 of course. 23:57:47 I had to roll my own 23:58:05 kallisti, but you can't do what my erlang implementation can. It can run on multiple computers 23:58:06 if I were going to go for an efficient befunge compiler I'd probably use C++ 23:58:07 distributed 23:58:35 (I didn't finish the fingerprint for accessing that functionality, some parts work) 23:59:12 it has a ATHR (async threads, since the befunge-98 threads created by t run in lock step, I wanted truly async threads) 23:59:38 btw, cfunge can do 64-bit cells. Forgot if it does that by default. And efunge does bignum cells. 2012-07-08: 00:00:07 though it could be argued that bignum cells are possibly not allowed by the standard 00:00:34 kallisti, iirc javascript uses floats? You want to avoid that, and get proper integers, or at least limit yourself to an integer range 00:00:39 32-bit or 64-bit I guess 00:00:43 probably 32-bit? 00:00:52 there are no "proper integers" 00:01:09 well you want the proper precision and behaviour 00:01:12 does efunge do bignum cellos? 00:01:13 as if they were integers 00:01:14 if not why not 00:01:22 soundnfury, I just said it did? 00:01:27 read again 00:01:35 btw, cfunge can do 64-bit cells. Forgot if it does that by default. And efunge does bignum cells. 00:01:42 does efunge do bignum cellos? 00:01:52 oh, I thought it was a typo 00:01:54 very funny 00:02:01 actually I might write the interpreter in coffeescript. 00:02:02 just because. 00:02:07 arbitrary large string instruments! 00:02:10 kallisti, what is that? 00:02:16 soundnfury, nice 00:02:24 a dialect of javascript that compiles down to javascript. 00:02:35 kallisti, ... why does that exist? 00:02:46 because people want sugar with their javascript. :D 00:02:48 anyway you should clearly use node.js 00:02:50 I think coffeescript support should be mandatory for HTCPCP user-agents 00:03:02 soundnfury, "HTCPCP"? 00:03:03 kallisti: syntactic sugar causes and you know the rest 00:03:10 Vorpal: sure, let me dig out the RFC 00:03:23 soundnfury, oh the coffee thing? 00:03:23 2324 00:03:24 right 00:04:12 whatever 00:05:14 kallisti, anyway in here I think I, Deewiant and fizzie could probably help you with any befunge question you might have, except for the cfunge-INTERCAL bridge code, please direct any queries relating to that at ais523 00:05:51 (yes there is a fingerprint IFFI that makes cfunge and the ick INTERCAL implementation interact. Technically cfunge becomes embedded in ick) 00:06:11 (or rather in the program ick produces) 00:06:29 (since I don't understand intercal terribly well, I can't help with that) 00:07:37 also AFAIK using coffeescript and node.js aren't mutually exclusive. 00:07:47 coffeescript plays nicely with javascript code, of course. 00:08:29 kallisti, hey, why not implement an intercal parser? 00:08:31 XD 00:09:14 (that is notoriously difficult, it is an LR(infinite) grammar in the worst case) 00:11:12 Deewiant, hm maybe I should implement some more fingerprints in cfunge 00:11:33 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 00:11:35 due to some of the optimisations EVAR might be a bit of a challenge for example 00:11:45 kallisti, btw CCBI is implemented in D 00:11:51 the only program I know that uses D 00:13:05 hm I could implement IIPC and IMAP I think, it would just make the code less cleanb 00:13:07 clean* 00:13:10 I have made up some functions for dealing with free monads, such as: affectFree :: Functor g => (forall z. (s, f z) -> g (s, z)) -> (s, Free f x) -> Free g (s, x); reduceFree :: Monad m => (forall z. f z -> m z) -> Free f x -> m x; 00:13:18 TRDS I couldn't do 00:13:38 kallisti, HEY you want to implement TRDS. It allows time travel for the instruction pointers 00:13:49 only rcfunge (the original implementation of it) and CCBI implements it 00:13:59 it is painfully messy 00:14:02 I'm not looking to implement every fingerprint ever. 00:14:18 I just want to use befunge on a website. :D 00:14:23 aww 00:14:34 kallisti, what about SOCK? Would that even work in a browser? 00:14:39 no. 00:14:41 kallisti, fungot uses it 00:14:42 Vorpal: hold on... pyrire... is that what they *really* can't stand is a smartass 00:14:42 ^source 00:14:43 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 00:16:30 FILE, SOCK, FING, STRN, SCKE, TOYS, REXP 00:16:42 TOYS is only used for the reload on the fly 00:18:27 Vorpal: pretty sure your example involving k would just run out of stack. 00:18:40 kallisti, empty stack pops a 0 though 00:18:42 so not an issue 00:19:00 kallisti, anyway my point here was that k on j is a pain, k on k is even more of a pain 00:19:17 ccbi even opted to not handle k on k specially and just hope for the best 00:19:23 I don't remember what cfunge does 00:19:52 cowards. 00:20:22 kallisti this is what cfunge does: http://sprunge.us/iMQH?c 00:20:48 RUNSELF is a macro 00:21:16 that recursively invokes the function based on different prototypes (which can happen due to different configurations when building) 00:22:03 kallisti, anyway k is one of those instructions where you could make a case for several different interpretations 00:22:19 in fact mycology accepts several variants there (it prints it as UNDEF: ) 00:22:34 I think it's pretty clear that whatever k does, it should be one tick. 00:22:45 even if it runs k multiple times. 00:23:16 kallisti, ah that isn't the issue. The issue here is different. Where it should fetch the instruction 00:23:17 the tricky part for me is how the linewrapping behaves with jumps. 00:23:45 kallisti, ooh yeah that one is tricky 00:24:07 cpressy (who made befunge) was here some time ago and we discussed it with him 00:24:12 forgot what the outcome was 00:24:20 Then it finds the next instruction in Funge-space in the path of the IP (note that this cannot be a marker such as space or ;), treats it as an instruction, executing it n times. 00:24:34 it clearly states that kk should execute k, n times. 00:24:40 yes 00:24:46 so then kj should execute j, m times. 00:24:50 but what about the inner k, where should it fetch the instruction? 00:25:04 k should fetch it the next from the current position, but executes it at the k iirc 00:25:09 which leads to some issues with kk 00:25:22 also things like 1k^ 00:25:28 where does that go up from 00:25:35 does it go up above the k or above the ^ 00:25:45 or even kk^ 00:26:15 the result is the same as just ^ 00:26:17 like the spec says. 00:26:57 I don't think it makes any sense for k to execute the next instruction from its location in the grid. 00:27:19 right, I forgot how it was supposed to work. I wrote most of cfunge in like 2008 00:27:28 kallisti, what about 01-k2 btw? 00:27:35 how many times does that execute, if any? 00:27:39 or does it do something else? 00:27:42 what is - 00:27:47 kallisti, substract 00:27:53 basically you have a -1 on the stack 00:27:55 when you hit the k 00:28:05 oh it's signed integers? 00:28:18 kallisti, in befunge? of course 00:28:32 kallisti, signed 32-bit commonly 00:28:57 kallisti, anyway don't stare yourself blind at the spec for this one: 00:28:59 "UNDEF: k with a negative argument reflects" 00:29:02 (yeah undef) 00:29:06 well since "execute -1 times" isnt really meaingful it would just be undefined behavior 00:29:09 so... whatever you want to do. 00:29:17 I would treat it as 0 00:29:21 (iirc ccbi executed the absolute value instead) 00:30:09 btw the cfunge bzr repo has some tests for things that mycology doesn't test. Might be useful. Might not be 00:31:25 hm I should get rid of the ones named *.b109, since that standard died due to lack of work. 00:32:01 kallisti, read the spec for y too. Have fun 00:32:16 so, I have 1 TB of storage on this server. How can I utilize this for the Great Good of the esolang community? 00:32:24 mirrors? 00:33:30 kallisti, give me root access 00:33:32 ;) 00:33:40 nope. 00:33:47 however I'll give you private git repos. 00:33:53 * kallisti is running gitolite 00:33:54 not git 00:34:01 why? 00:34:06 I'm not a git user 00:34:10 why? 00:34:10 mercurial or bzr 00:34:15 I don't like git 00:35:14 kallisti, anyway is the server in a data center? 00:35:18 or a home server? 00:35:37 data center 00:35:42 OVH dedicated server 00:35:50 nice 00:35:53 must cost a lot 00:35:55 no. 00:35:58 oh? 00:36:03 I got the cheapest one, from a reseller 00:36:06 huh 00:36:08 zero customer support. 00:36:12 it's 15 euros a month. 00:36:17 nice 00:36:35 2 GB RAM, celeron processor. Sufficient for a small-scale storage server. 00:36:55 hm 00:37:03 kallisti, only twice the ram of my phone 00:37:19 and as much ram as my laptop 00:37:26 1/8 of the RAM in my desktop 00:37:27 yeah it has the same CPU and RAM specs as my old dell desktop. 00:37:32 which I still have. 00:37:47 and I can't make any silly CPU comparisons without more details :P 00:38:00 http://www.kimsufi.ie/ 00:38:25 kallisti, 1.2 GHz? 00:38:30 let me check 00:38:31 okay that is less than my phone 00:38:33 how many cores? 00:38:45 one sec 00:38:53 I don't remember how to check this stuff from shell. 00:39:01 /proc/cpuinfo 00:39:01 kallisti, cat /proc/cpuinfo 00:39:23 2 core 1.6 Ghz Atom 00:39:50 sufficient for a server, I think. 00:39:55 kallisti, my phone has 4 cores at 1.4 GHz each. Of course, it is ARM so any comparison is pointless. 00:40:24 though atm /proc/cpuinfo on it only lists one, but iirc it hotplugs the cores on demand 00:40:35 MemTotal: 2035816 kB 00:40:52 http://sprunge.us/HUfh 00:41:31 so yeah it looks like their plans only list the minimum of what you're getting. 00:41:41 hm 00:41:53 right 00:42:05 kallisti, what about traffic / month? 00:42:17 it says "Unlimited* " 00:42:21 what does the * mean 00:42:31 5 TB a month before they limit your bandwidth. 00:42:36 but otherwise unlimited. 00:42:36 I can only find ** and *** below 00:42:47 ** : The traffic is unlimited. If you exceed 5TB/month for the Kimsufi 2G, 10TB/month for the Kimsufi 16G or 15TB/month for the 24G Kimsufi the connection will be limited to 10 Mbps. You can buy additional TB of traffic directly from your manager: €0.99 per TB 00:42:49 kallisti, that is not "unlimited" 00:42:51 they messed up their asterisks. :P 00:42:54 ah 00:43:05 I don't see myself exceeding 5 TB a month. 00:43:13 fair enough 00:43:22 where is .ie? 00:43:25 Irland? 00:43:25 ireland 00:43:41 there's a .co.uk but they only work with UK customers. 00:43:42 oh right, it is spelled Ireland in English 00:43:47 the .ie site has ireland, US, and I think Canada. 00:44:18 "BSD Raw, for BSD fans", I wonder why they don't say that the Linux variant is for Linux fans, or the Windows variant is for windows fans 00:44:20 ;P 00:44:25 best deal I've found for a dedicated server. the price per storage space is much higher than any VPS I've found. 00:44:38 kallisti, much lower you mean 00:44:39 er, lower 00:44:40 yes 00:44:44 hlep what is ratio 00:44:56 ? 00:44:58 what? 00:45:05 nothing. 00:45:15 kallisti, "help what is ratio"? 00:45:16 what? 00:45:48 I don't know how to explain what that means 00:45:57 kallisti, which distro did they pre-install? 00:46:03 debian? 00:46:21 you pick from a list. I chose Debian (stable was the only option, but I updated to wheezy) 00:46:22 I would probably go for debian myself 00:46:27 right 00:46:34 why not sid ;P 00:46:42 I'm afraid of things called "unstable" 00:47:16 isn't there an even more unstable version than sid iirc? 00:47:19 for a production server, you'd want Debian stable. testing would be a bit risky. 00:47:25 yeah 00:47:37 also, no idea. 00:47:54 also I guess they don't give you hardware visualisation with the cheap variant 00:48:18 you should go for colo, then the hardware is a one-time investment (huge one though) 00:48:19 there's some graphs and stuff I haven't looked at. you can view resource usage 00:48:30 what is colo 00:48:35 colocated server 00:48:45 I think my experience with making a program that had an inordinately large startup time made me desire an environment with live modification of code more than I really should 00:48:46 you provide the hardware 00:48:50 they provide the rack 00:48:55 kallisti, do they give you any kvm access? 00:49:04 to access BIOS and if you fuck up ssh 00:49:31 there's a "web console" if you fuck up your network config, and you can reboot from the admin panel. 00:49:49 kallisti, with web console you mean a serial console? 00:49:57 I have no idea what it is. :P 00:50:00 that's what they call it. 00:50:00 ah 00:50:03 right 00:50:04 I haven't used it. 00:50:31 but yeah it seems like a nice deal 00:51:02 I wouldn't mind upgrading to one of the better servers if I could afford it. 00:51:09 dunno what I would do with 16 GBs of RAM and 2 TBs though. 00:51:17 for now I manage fine with dropbox. My phone came with 50 GB free for 2 years. 00:51:28 kallisti: my server (which is also my laptop, heh) is running debian Testing 00:51:39 yeah I'm running test on both my laptop and server. 00:51:42 *testing 00:51:45 soundnfury, how do you do RAID then? 00:51:46 Stable is more than stable, it's fossilised 00:51:51 kallisti, does the hardware have RAID btw? 00:51:54 Vorpal: um, I don't 00:51:56 I wouldn't do a server without RAID 1 00:52:05 soundnfury, right, I even do RAID 1 on my desktop 00:52:08 I only have one disk in my laptop 00:52:17 I have... 3 + 1 SSD 00:52:22 Vorpal: not sure. I know there's backup services but it costs extra I believe. 00:52:24 it's hard to fit more than that into the case heh 00:52:25 (the third one is for windows, no raid for it 00:52:41 soundnfury, then it isn't a desktop case 00:52:43 (however, I do intend (eventually!) to get an external disk that I can raid onto 00:52:52 I have space for two more disks 00:52:56 Vorpal: I know it isn't. It's a laptop, not a desktop 00:53:01 oh right 00:53:08 I read laptop as desktop somehow 00:53:18 I remember reading about a laptop with 2 disks 00:53:27 some insane 20" thingy with dual screens iirc 00:53:31 Vorpal: yeah RAID costs extra. 00:53:34 (yes seriously) 00:53:38 kallisti, how much extra? 00:54:46 Vorpal: actually it looks like they don't offer it at all. they point you to the OVH site for that. 00:55:11 http://www.ovh.ie/dedicated_servers/ 00:55:34 OVH? 00:55:40 kimsufi is a reseller of OVH 00:55:45 ah 00:55:56 those cost considerably more 00:56:06 yes. they come with more bells and whistles. and probably better support. 00:56:26 kimsufi is "here, have a computer. don't break anything" 00:56:30 right 00:56:43 kallisti, I would love "here, have a computer with RAID 1, don't break anything" 00:57:02 support isn't what I'm looking for 00:57:15 I would hope that hard drive failure isn't something I'll need to worry about. 00:57:32 kallisti, have backups on everything on the server I would suggest 00:57:53 well at the moment the server is my backup. 00:57:54 using it as an backup is fine, unlikely both your local disk and the remote disk would fail at the same time 00:58:00 but eventually I'll have an external drive I can rsync to. 00:58:49 also I'm going to set up a fancy backup system with rsync + git annex. 00:59:23 I don't want to fool with git locally. so I'll just have a local cronjob that rsyncs to the server, and a serverside cronjob that does git / git annex stuff 00:59:24 heh 00:59:35 why? 00:59:40 what is git annex? 00:59:42 so I can version control small files 00:59:51 kallisti, my /etc is in bzr 00:59:51 git annex lets you check things into git without actually checking the file contents in 01:00:01 so you can use it to transfer large files. 01:00:05 but version control small files. 01:00:11 huh 01:00:22 it's like a dropbox replacement for people with servers. :P 01:00:27 :P 01:00:32 > text ":P" 01:00:34 :P 01:00:44 hm 01:00:51 what is the prefix for EgoBot now again? 01:00:54 ^help 01:00:54 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 01:00:56 !help 01:00:57 ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 01:01:00 thanks 01:01:06 psh, I haven't been here for months and I know this stuff. c'mon. 01:01:11 !help languages 01:01:11 ​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 01:01:28 !befunge98 > text ":P" 01:01:31 that is a fork bomb 01:01:36 due to >t 01:01:42 ha 01:01:44 don't fear though, there are limits 01:01:58 oh wait befunge starts from right to left? 01:02:07 kallisti, it travels > 01:02:11 to start with 01:02:16 but look at what t does 01:02:24 the child IP starts in the opposite direction 01:02:28 so... yeah 01:02:29 oh right 01:02:56 kallisti, speaking of which, you need to move the child IP forward before it's first move 01:02:58 so >t with a @ along the control flow path makes a fun little concurrent stream of sorts. 01:03:10 the spec is written so that the first instruction the child ip executes is t.... 01:03:20 kallisti, yes 01:03:49 !befunge98 >t"foo"...@ 01:03:50 111 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 01:03:54 oops 01:03:55 each thread has its own stack I'd imagine. 01:04:00 kallisti, yes 01:04:07 kallisti, and its own set of fingerprints 01:04:09 and so on 01:04:16 anyway t is optional 01:04:18 sanity? in my esolangs? 01:04:23 you indicate support in y 01:04:36 well, befunge-98 is surprisingly sane 01:04:48 it is however really hard to compile, and to implement in general 01:05:18 kallisti, remember the IP can't only move ^>v< you can use x to set the delta vector to any value 01:05:23 that is going to mess up compiling :P 01:05:45 imagine reading the delta vector from user input 01:05:46 Vorpal: re: VPA. kimsufi has VPS offers. and there's nothing stoping you from running xen or kvm or whatever on your dedicated server. 01:05:59 in fact the 24G server would be sufficient to run a small VPS service. 01:06:04 indeed 01:07:17 btw samsung sucks at coding. Each time I plug my phone into a computer it spawns two zombie shell processes 01:07:36 the parent process? kiesexe... Kies is Samsung's PC bloatware phone suite 01:07:55 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving"). 01:08:30 kallisti, ^ 01:09:25 heh 01:10:34 app_113 8739 1909 461856 31200 ffffffff 00000000 S com.sec.android.daemonapp.ap.yahoostock.stockclock <-- huh, I disabled the yahoo bloatware... Wtf 01:10:41 since I freelance for living these days, private git repos will come in handy. 01:10:45 +a 01:11:28 +a? 01:11:34 there was an a missing 01:11:36 in that sentence. 01:11:39 I put it back in 01:12:12 don't see where it was 01:12:16 haandy? 01:12:16 *a living 01:12:18 lol 01:12:30 oh 01:12:48 "freelance for living" sounds like something an ignorant Swede would say! 01:13:07 hey 01:13:42 not a sophisticated speaker of the English serpent. 01:14:46 :P 01:14:59 kallisti, and where are you from? 01:15:12 The United States of America. 01:15:25 blergh, you can't even spell colour correctly 01:15:44 And you put z instead of s in many places 01:15:50 you have nothing to say when it comes to English :P 01:15:52 that's because it's so cool. 01:15:55 to use z 01:16:03 GHC uses z encoding 01:16:05 that's because 01:16:09 it knows what it means to be cool. 01:16:15 kallisti, why didn't you write "to uze z" then? 01:16:16 like Americans 01:16:23 or "americanz" 01:16:33 because the art of cool is a subtle thing. 01:16:40 touche 01:16:44 you can't be brazen with your z's 01:16:51 brasen :P 01:16:57 (no not really) 01:17:09 also what is the name of that figure of speech I just used 01:17:14 "the English serpent" 01:17:36 hm? 01:18:03 it has a name 01:18:18 Yes, "non sequitur" ;) 01:18:19 oh? 01:18:24 hah 01:18:35 no it has an actual name. 01:18:38 it's a thing people do 01:18:46 TRUST ME OKAY. 01:19:03 kallisti, "figure of speech" 01:19:46 yeah but it's a specific one 01:19:52 riight 01:20:18 anyone know where android keep the group mappings? 01:20:31 it has no /etc/passwd or /etc/groups 01:20:39 yet "id" manages to work 01:22:08 oh "Actually there is a stub for mapping the android_id to passwd structure. Although there is no physical /etc/passed, the stub should populate the values. " 01:25:48 well, I'm going to sleep. Good night 01:26:11 kallisti, don't forget to check out mycology. And I will ask you tomorrow how it all went I guess 01:26:19 (how much you written so far and so on) 01:26:24 nothing. 01:26:30 get started then! 01:26:37 ;P 01:26:47 I need to work on things that get me paid, actually. 01:26:48 as usual. 01:26:53 ouch 01:27:10 it's not too bad. I'm writing it in Haskell, because I can. 01:27:22 I got a job. Will start last July 01:27:43 it will start a year ago? :P 01:27:51 last of July :P 01:27:57 at Atlas Copco. Will code in C++ on top of a real time OS 01:28:01 mining rigs 01:28:06 nice. 01:28:30 kallisti, it is easy to get jobs if you took computer science or computer engineering in Sweden 01:28:32 you should convince them to use FPC++ 01:28:39 FPC+ being? 01:29:02 oh wait it's FC++ 01:29:03 I think 01:29:07 what is FC++? 01:29:10 "functional C++" 01:29:13 ouch 01:29:17 no it's good. 01:29:31 kallisti, did you see pikhq's lambda's in C (using gcc for closures) 01:29:40 ask him to give you a link otherwise 01:29:49 it is awesome to look at 01:29:49 FC++ is actually well designed. 01:29:59 riiight 01:30:14 it supports higher-order functions on functions with polymorphic types. 01:30:22 okay 01:30:23 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:30:25 which IIRC templates don't do. 01:30:25 in C++ 01:30:26 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:30:26 right 01:30:36 is this a C++ library? 01:30:40 of course. 01:30:44 right 01:30:47 using templates? 01:30:54 believe so. 01:31:08 what about boost? 01:31:11 does it use boost? 01:31:21 they're working on getting it in boost actually 01:31:27 ouch stop it! 01:31:33 boost is not a good thing :P 01:31:37 it's not? 01:31:43 it is over-engineered 01:31:50 from what I have seen of it 01:32:04 For me C++ is just a job. C++ is not fun. 01:32:10 I've used the async networking bits of it, and from what I can tell it's pretty well-designed. 01:32:17 I wouldn't expect interfaces to be simple in C++. 01:32:24 well that is an issue 01:32:40 Java or C# (with their standard libraries) are much nicer 01:32:57 C# is actually a pretty decent imperative object oriented language 01:33:08 java is not quite as decent 01:33:17 (generics and type erasure for a start) 01:33:43 C# isn't bad 01:33:56 indeed 01:34:04 I enjoy the way C++ "feels" if that makes sense. 01:34:06 anyway I need to sleep 01:34:14 kallisti, you sick sick person! :P 01:34:21 C++ feels clunky 01:34:33 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:34:50 in fact most programming languages do to some extent, even haskell sometimes. But Haskell less than usual, and C++ more than usual 01:35:04 anyway, night *closes lid on laptop running the irc client* 01:35:15 GOOD NIGHT 01:39:18 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:52:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DAPXMZk2iw 01:53:01 are those thumbs up numbers for real 01:53:15 those are by far the highest I've ever seen 01:59:46 I’ve just been playing that game. \o/ It’s one of the best games i’ve played. 01:59:46 | 01:59:46 /´\ 02:02:53 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:02:56 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:03:55 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 02:05:06 ion, well I did start playing it again yesterday in lieu of considering augur's comments on nonlethal and stealth, and decided I wasn't having any truck with either. 02:05:41 Suffice to say, dragon's tooth sword + regen aug makes most of the game a cakewalk. 02:05:47 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:06:28 I’ve been playing a stealth game, avoiding melée. 02:07:10 So are you using the... one stealth non-melee weapon in the vanilla game? 02:08:01 (Silenced sniper rifle, stealth pistol doesn't count since it can barely kill the average grunt with a headshot with pistols at master.) 02:08:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:11:16 yes 02:13:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:21:43 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:22:16 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 02:26:30 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:30:52 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:30:58 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:36:19 Maybe some is more and less clunky to you 02:36:20 -!- Tod-Autojoined has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:36:29 I do not understand exactly what you mean 02:37:12 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:40:01 -!- TodPunk has joined. 02:49:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:55:14 data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; What would it be called instead of "X"? 02:57:20 Aloha, folk. 03:01:48 Do you know what it would be called? 03:03:03 Do you know this one? data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; }; 03:04:13 pikhq: Ahola, klof. 03:23:13 -!- edwardk has joined. 03:24:55 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 03:25:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: No clue!). 03:40:40 * Sgeo attempts to remember the details of the proof of the theorem that ais523 and I did 03:41:15 I seem to be caught up wondering why the assumption that the version of the pattern with the dead live cell could not be part of the loop if the pattern without the cell was 03:46:41 There's a mistake in my restatement of the proof 03:46:46 http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.07.23 03:47:26 00:51:41 Now, for every pattern of a certain size or smaller, you can trivially make a precursor by putting a single live cell outside of causal contact with the pattern. Therefore, the pattern has a precursor, and therefore, there's a Garden of Eden that results in it. 03:48:17 (Besides the sloppy wording, the extra cell doesn't result in having a precursor of the pattern added to, but a precursor of the pattern's next iteration) 04:02:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:03:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:09:05 Do you know what to call these "X" and "Y" types instead of the names "X" and "Y"? 04:09:18 ? 04:09:30 data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; }; 04:09:55 i got nothin 04:10:32 Are you sure? 04:11:16 yep 04:11:36 I don't know the proper name either. 04:12:00 if you drop the z parameter from X maybe you can spot something 04:12:41 X x y = (y -> X x y) looks like a hyperfunction 04:13:06 so you probably have something like a higher order hyperfunction there 04:13:12 Well, that isn't what it is, though. Here it is a GADT. 04:13:17 yes 04:13:23 but i'm fishing for intuition 04:13:28 because that type means nothing to me ;) 04:13:47 if you ignore the action on the third parameter you get a hyperfunction 04:14:00 so you have something hyperfunction-like, but i don't know how you would use it 04:14:22 its like a hyperfunction where you are building up a layer of x's for every step of the hyperfunction 04:14:53 kind of like a prepromorphism 04:15:09 but those aren't applied to non-uniformly recursive types like this 04:16:12 i would hazard that if you took the "initial algebra semantics are enough", there might be a way to make that prepromorphism connection more rigorous 04:17:49 you can probably annihilate X with a Jet or use it to consume one 04:18:00 What is Jet? 04:18:27 https://github.com/ekmett/ad/blob/master/src/Numeric/AD/Internal/Jet.hs#L39 04:18:38 its a 'fully unzipped' cofree comonad 04:18:52 a :- f a :- f (f a) :- f (f (f a)) :- ... 04:19:13 your X wants to consume an a then an f a then an f (f a), etc. 04:20:09 It doesn't want to consume anything, as far as I can see. 04:20:42 It isn't a function. 04:21:21 ah you're right 04:21:22 hrmm 04:21:46 i was reading it as y z -> X x y (y z) -> X x y z 04:24:20 so now i have no intuition for it whatsoever ;) 04:24:23 I was thinking of uses with Yoneda and Density and so on. 04:25:22 It is never a Functor, as far as I can tell. 04:36:14 Do you figure out about CodensityAsk, CodensityAskT, DensityAsk, DensityAskT? 04:37:08 (The way I have it, (CodensityAsk w) make MonadPlus if w is Comonad; hopefully it is correct although I am not completely sure) 04:37:53 i've been busy packing for the last 2 days 04:38:07 I know; you told me that. 04:38:32 he's saying you're repetitive 04:38:57 finally got my new living room furniture. first time i reclined one of the loveseats, the whole thing burned out and shut down. now i have a loveseat i can't un-recline ;) 04:39:16 quintopia: well, so is the question ;) 04:39:17 Now you have to fix it, please. 04:39:35 Yes, that too. 04:39:35 now i'll let the people who shipped it to me fix it 04:40:58 ask a qestion again, expect a different answer 04:41:05 "do you love me yet?" 04:41:11 I don't know! 04:41:26 Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ;) 04:42:56 What is your CofreeT? Is it different to mine that is why you said mine was wrong? I can fix it if it is wrong 04:42:57 "do i qualify as sane now????" 04:43:09 quintopia: Ask again later. 04:43:15 "do i qualify as sane now????" 04:43:18 quintopia: Ask again later. 04:43:22 "do i qualify as sane now????" 04:43:24 quintopia: Ask again later. 04:44:05 damn that was hilarious but it is too long to quote 04:44:06 it put the w on the outside 04:44:12 OK 04:45:14 Did you have: data CofreeT f w x = CofreeT (w (x, f (CofreeT f w x))) 04:45:36 zzo38: more or less (the pair was a data type) 04:46:21 oh, i guess it wasn't 04:46:22 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/comonad-transformers/0.3/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Trans-Stream.html 04:46:47 i didn't check its laws and it was awkward as hell to reason about 04:47:21 the fact that freeT puts the m on the outside leads me to guess by analogy that the w may go on the inside like you had 04:47:25 so you may well have been correct 04:47:38 but this is the version i had 04:47:41 Yes, that is what I thought. 04:48:51 when i wrote that i was only just coming to terms with the way things had to distribute over one another to make a comonad transformer 04:49:02 (i had implemented many comonad-transformers incorrectly in category-extras) 04:49:53 My definitions of class methods are: duplicate (CofreeT x y) = CofreeT (x =>> flip CofreeT y) (duplicate <$> y); lower (CofreeT x _) = x; 04:50:52 *nods* 04:51:03 duplicate looks simple enough to be right 04:51:39 i'll validate it when i get around to adding CofreeT and FreeT to the free package 04:53:46 extract is also obviously correct, I think. 04:54:56 (I didn't specify fmap or extract, because fmap is known directly from the type, and extract = extract . lower) 04:55:30 sure 05:04:03 I did not post the CodensityAskT on here so now I will: newtype CodensityAskT w m x = CodensityAskT { runCodensityAskT :: forall z. w (m z) -> (x -> m z) -> m z }; 05:07:42 You have said before that (Yoneda Endo) makes a Maybe monad, although you cannot get the instances for free. (CodensityAsk Identity) would be the same kind of things, isn't it? You will get Monad and MonadPlus instance for free. 05:45:03 -!- ogrom has joined. 06:11:17 you get the instance of Monad for Yoneda Endo for free 06:11:26 er 06:11:27 wait 06:11:34 HMonad, not Monad, hrmm 06:13:14 the easiest way to get a 'free' definition for Maybe is Free Default using the Free c a = forall r. c r => (a -> r) -> r free monad 06:13:18 You can get the instance of Plus for Yoneda Endo for free at least in my definitions. 06:13:38 edwardk: Yes that works too. 06:14:01 in practice though, just working with Codensity Maybe is faster than working with the Yoneda Endo-based Maybe 06:14:18 OK 06:14:21 and that at least is a monad for free 06:14:32 and is isomorphic to Yoneda Endo 06:15:07 Unlike yours, you can also get the MonadPlus instance for free for (Codensity Endo), and it acts like a list monad. 06:16:42 class Plus f where { zero :: f x; plus :: f x -> f x -> f x; }; instance Plus Endo where { zero = mempty; plus = mappend; }; instance Plus f => MonadPlus (Codensity f) where { mzero = Codensity (const zero); mplus (Codensity x) (Codensity y) = Codensity (liftA2 plus x y); }; 06:16:47 The difference is that CodensityAskT is sort of an ad hoc mess =P 06:16:55 hrmm 06:17:06 edwardk: O, yes, OK. Perhaps it is sort of an ad hoc mess. 06:17:37 But I don't know if it is so messy as to be wrong. 06:17:37 yeah, i buy Codensity Endo 06:18:04 its not wrong, its just not fundamental in any real useful way i can detect 06:18:42 (There is also CodensityAsk which is the same except without the "m"; the reason it is separate is because w could be anything not necessarily even a endofunctor or contrafunctor) 06:19:01 (Although to make a MonadPlus, w does need to be a comonad and therefore a endofunctor.) 06:19:27 Are you sure it is not wrong? I thought you said before that you were unsure? 06:19:39 i'm not sure 06:20:18 i meant that even granting it not being wrong, that it was an ad hoc mess =) 06:20:39 Yes I understand that. 06:23:02 i'm debating about weakening the requirement for MonadPlus (Codensity m) to just Plus m, i'm torn because the MonadPlus m => MonadPlus (Codensity m) is more useful to more people 06:24:40 edwardk: Well, I do have a overlappable instance Alternative f => Plus f so probably it is also Applicative and Alternative so it can be used. 06:24:51 that instance is a terrible idea 06:25:11 because it only works reliably if it is placed _in_ the module with any instance that overlaps it! 06:25:15 You need not do that, although even if you do, I think your Plus requires Functor anyways so it won't work 06:25:28 oh true 06:26:03 edwardk: No instances will actually overlap it though, since you will define Alternative rather than Plus if it can have that. 06:27:28 you'd have a 'compatible' instance, but the problem is that even so, if you make two instance Foo a and Foo Bar but you define Foo Bar in another module than the module you supplied Foo a, there exist circumstances where you may never get the Foo Bar instance to be taken. 06:27:49 SPJ has commented on this in the past when overlapping instances come up 06:28:31 I know overlapping instances is not the best solution but it is what Haskell has. The solutions in Ibtlfmm work better but we don't have that so instead we use what we do have. 06:29:09 no, its not that its what haskell has, its that if you use it, and will be adding more instances in any other module, your code is just broken 06:30:10 you can use overlapping instances if you define everything that overlaps with that instance in the same module as the 'too general' case, and it'll work correctly (in the absence of ConstraintKinds and other tomfoolery) 06:30:46 What happens if you define them in other modules? 06:30:49 but if you go to make a sweeping instance like the one you named, by construction people will want to make refinements later! 06:30:59 they often won't be seen 06:31:18 but its unpredictable because instances tend to infect a ghc --make session 06:31:58 in general the decision of what to do at an instance head has to be an entirely local decision 06:32:09 OK, but still, if you require the Plus and Alternative and MonadPlus to all use the same monoid, you should not get any problems, especially if you never actually define a Plus instance for something that has Alternative. 06:32:54 (I just put in overlapping instances to ensure it will compile. It seems it won't always compile if that is turned off.) 06:33:52 the statement that instance says is that 'the only instances of Plus are instances of Alternative', that is a much stronger statement than you want, and it can prevent the more specific rule for something that -is- only a Plus from being used in some difficult to write circumstances 06:33:54 I do understand the problems with overlapping instances but sometimes it is needed for some things. 06:34:11 i don't think you do, because you're still trying to use a flagrantly broken instance ;) 06:34:23 edwardk: Yes I saw those kind of things, but that isn't the only instance in that module. 06:37:36 If overlapping instances is not turned on, I get the error "Overlapping instances for Plus Endo" when doing something like (return 7 <|> (return 9 :: Codensity Endo Int)) even though there are no overlapping instances. 06:37:56 Why is that? 06:38:29 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:39:24 Can you explain in what circumstances something that is only a Plus cannot be used? 06:40:33 You say that if you define the other instances in a different module they won't work. Have you tried this? 06:40:42 -!- variable has changed nick to const. 06:41:26 Well, I understand *some* problems with overlapping instances, not necessarily all. 06:42:56 One problem seems to be that you cannot mark individual instances in a module as normal, overlapping, or incoherent. 06:43:25 Not only would I like to be able to ark individual instances, I would also like TH splices to be able to do so. 06:45:02 I have thought of something else but might result in many other problems: Use a TH code that gets the list of instances of Alternative and of Plus and then make up individual instances of Plus for all Alternative if they don't already have instance of Plus too. But then it is possible different modules will have different instances even if the instances are the same. 06:47:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:50:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:50:51 How do I fix it? 06:54:13 just tuned back in 06:54:27 i don't have the link handy for how it blows up 06:54:43 the th hack you mentioned is actually a reasonably correct solution 06:55:02 but it needs to probably be run in the module that defines the type 06:55:27 which means if you don't control the type, any instances you make will be orphans and subject to this problem 06:56:14 Yes that is what I thought. It is possible different modules will have different instances even if the instances are the same, and maybe this can somehow cause problems? 06:58:49 it definitely causes problems 06:59:13 and will introduce even more overlap and incoherence if someone imports both of those modues 06:59:56 if you have Foo and Bar imports Foo, and defines an instance and Baz imports Foo and defines a similar instance, and Quux imports Bar and Baz, you're hosed. this is why orphan instances are bad 07:02:09 Yes I can understand. 07:02:47 I think the type class system how it is implemented in Haskell is just somewhat bad in general; it is why I proposed the Ibtlfmm system which should correct these and other problems. 07:05:49 In Ibtlfmm, it would be possible for types to have annotations. Two types that are the same type but with different annotations are still the same type. The purpose of the annotations is they can be accessed by macros. Since classes will just be type synonyms of some constraint with many parts (the methods, laws, superclasses, etc) then "instance" can also be a macro that takes this into consideration! 07:06:11 Therefore you can have default definition of class methods even though there needs not have this feature built-in to Ibtlfmm. 07:07:56 Do you think the type class system in Haskell is somewhat bad in general? Do you think this other way is better? 07:09:49 i think there are a number of fundamental issues that every such system needs to address, and that Haskell's system is the best of all the terrible systems I've seen tried. 07:10:24 I have no practical experience with your system, so I have no real stance on if its good/bad or just odd ;) 07:10:37 Yes that is probably true. Nevertheless I had my own ideas many of which have never been implemented as far as I know. 07:11:00 but my main concern is that if you don't have confluence of instance resolution, you'll wind up with the same sewer that scala has 07:11:09 You can't really have practical experience with my system since no implementation exists (not even the specification actually really exists completely). 07:11:18 and it isn't clear to me from your description whether that holds or not 07:11:31 What is confluence of instance resolution? 07:11:40 And what is the same sewer that scala has? 07:11:50 in haskell there is only one instance of 'Ord Int' for instance 07:12:04 in scala i can make up multiple implicit definitions for that 07:13:02 in haskell this means that, say, given two Set Int values that you know they were sorted the same way so you can use a hedge merge 07:13:27 but in scala, you get no such guarantee, so you must take the asymptotically slower solution of inserting every member of the smaller set into the larger 07:13:43 I have read and thought of the problems of having multiple instances of Ord Int such as making Set Int wrong; but what if you could have like this: Set :: Ord x => (* =x) -> * being the kind of the type Set (as Haskell's Set) therefore if the instance Ord Int is different, the type Set Int is also a different type. 07:14:57 You could be allowed to equate two different instances of the same thing in two different modules even in a third module; this is simply an assertion and if the computer doesn't attempt and succeed at disproving it then it is assumed to be equivalent. 07:15:21 yes, you can move constraints to the kind system 07:15:24 (And even if the computer does somehow disprove it, you would probably only get a warning.) 07:15:32 not sure i'm a fan of unchecked assertions like that ;) 07:16:20 Well, I mean that constraints are types and can be used on types but can also be used on kinds. 07:16:32 ok, i need to get some sleep, movers will be here in a few hours 07:16:39 OK, I can understand if you dislike these kind of unchecked assertions. 07:16:54 But, doesn't Haskell already have some such as GHC's RULES pragmas? 07:17:23 RULES pragmas are at least checked for type consistency 07:17:50 and they are accepted to be a sort of 'buyer beware' situation for extreme optimizations 07:18:06 (It is just that in the case of Ibtlfmm, they are somewhat stronger and the compiler is allowed to attempt to disprove them as long as it does not go into an infinite loop in doing so, and even if it does disprove it you should get a warning. There are other things that make them stronger too such as allowing implied stuff to be assumed too) 07:18:29 the situation you painted, would make you use this in many places where an ml programmer would be asserting the use of two modules with a type equality assertion 07:18:34 that happens a lot more 07:18:51 But with my idea of Set :: Ord x => (* =x) -> * then (Set Int) is not even a valid type if there is no instance Ord Int in scope. 07:19:35 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:19:47 Hello! 07:20:14 FYI- jhc's internal representation of typeclasses in its 'E" language is somewhat similar to the subkinding representation of classes 07:20:27 What do you mean, asserting the use of two modules with a type equality assertion? How does that work? 07:20:31 you may get some insight into your problem domain 07:20:40 but i'm goign to sleep now =P 07:20:43 OK 07:20:47 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:25:51 -!- const has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:26:27 How do *you* think Ibtlfmm's class system and Haskell's class system will be compared? 07:27:05 Taneb: I do mean you, too. 07:27:56 Ibtlfmm? 07:29:10 Read the logs as well as my file I wrote some things about it (I may write another one later too). 07:29:23 `pastelogs Ibtlfmm 07:29:39 > map succ "Haskell" 07:29:41 "Ibtlfmm" 07:29:41 -!- Guest1087 has joined. 07:30:03 No output. 07:30:09 :( 07:30:14 Oops! Is the pastelogs broken? 07:30:22 Just look at the recent logs for now. 07:31:48 Gregor: Do you know why the pastelogs is broken? 07:32:20 I cannot access the logs at all. 07:32:39 Let's try the other one. 07:33:30 This one works: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/12.07.08 07:34:22 Gregor, Codu.org seems to be down 07:52:30 zzo38, I don't really understand it. Can you give some examples of it in practise? 07:58:49 !ping 07:58:54 Pong! 07:59:06 huh, I wasn't actually expecting a response 07:59:10 this must be more complicated than it looks 07:59:34 `echo Pong! 07:59:37 Pong! 07:59:53 `pastelogs Ibtlfmm 08:00:12 ais523, codu's down 08:00:12 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15514 08:00:23 Taneb: I'm attempting to determine to what extent it's down 08:00:30 Oh, okay 08:01:44 type Monad (m :: * -> *) :: & = (Functor m, MonadLaws m, method return :: x. x -> m x, method join :: x. m (m x) -> m x); 08:01:49 seems to be just the webserver that's having issues 08:02:06 although seeing both glogbot and glogbackup here is a little confusing 08:05:49 Can you connect to that file linked using hg? 08:09:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:12:53 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 08:13:19 -!- stlangbot has joined. 08:20:46 What program was used to make optimized compression PNG file (on esolang wiki) for smaller size? 08:22:52 File:Grid processor.png has been reduced from 374 KB to 514 bytes. 08:25:09 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:28:36 -!- aloril has joined. 08:33:21 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:02:30 -!- stlangbot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:23:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:36:54 In golf, if a player hits his ball into another ball so that the other ball moves out of the way and the first ball slows down and ends up in the space where the other ball is supposed to be, what happens? 09:38:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:43:52 -!- MoALTz has joined. 09:52:12 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 09:52:50 -!- ais523 has quit. 09:55:39 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:15:55 -!- nortti-netbsd has joined. 10:16:02 yay 10:18:09 -!- nortti-netbsd has left. 10:25:30 -!- nortti-netbsd has joined. 10:28:10 -!- nortti-netbsd has quit (Client Quit). 10:28:55 -!- nortti-netbsd has joined. 10:29:27 juhani@misaki$ uname -a 10:29:38 NetBSD misaki 5.1.2 NetBSD 5.1.2 (GENERIC) #0: Thu Feb 2 17:22:10 UTC 2012 builds@b6.netbsd.org:/home/builds/ab/netbsd-5-1-2-RELEASE/i386/201202021012Z-obj/home/builds/ab/netbsd-5-1-2-RELEASE/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC i386 10:30:16 can someone explain how to use multiple channels in ircII? 10:31:17 ircII? Seriously? :-D 10:31:34 it was faster to build than irssi 10:32:08 after compiling lynx for 7 hours I didn't want to do that again 10:32:55 7 hours? 10:33:06 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 10:33:14 yes. I'm running netbsd on qemu on my machine 10:33:24 it runs about the same speed as mid 10:33:35 *mid-end 486 10:33:52 How about using virtualization instead of emulation? 10:34:32 are there any virtualization programs that don't use loads of memory 10:35:48 Get more memory. 10:35:49 Dunno about memory, but i’ve used VirtualBox. 10:36:31 Also, e.g. 8 or 16 gigabytes of memory is quite cheap nowadays. 10:36:55 actually big part of lynx compilation time was spent building gmake and libraries 10:37:53 ion: my computer can be maxed out at 512MB. it just needs rams sticks that I can't find (pc100) 10:38:38 also one of the two ram slots seem damaged so 256MB 10:40:11 Get more computer. 10:41:27 foo 10:42:22 kaytan netbsd:ta ja tassa n. 20v vanhassa irkkiclientissa joka oli nopein kaantaa ei oo tukea skandeille 10:42:31 saadan netbsd:ta 10:43:11 forget that 10:43:42 Does NetBSD only support gibberishese. :-( 10:44:25 it is finnish. ircII doesn't seem to handle queries 10:49:00 I was under the impression they actually added UTF-8 support to ircII some time ago. 10:49:06 Perhaps i remember incorrectly. 10:50:09 it cuts of the most significant bit of byte 10:50:41 now I'm compiling irssi 10:53:40 why don't they have binary packages that work on i586? I have to compile _everything_ from source 10:56:25 http://qdb.us/305435 10:57:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 10:59:53 I mean building software on irtual machine as fast as 486 is not fun 10:59:57 *virtual 11:00:18 but oh well. no one is forcing me to use netbsd 11:01:31 http://qdb.us/307755 11:03:14 can someone explain to me how uptime load average numbers work? 11:12:46 ok. so that is how I have 1.38 load 11:20:30 Now I made up this: catchCodensityAskT :: (Functor w, Monad m) => w (CodensityAskT w m x) -> CodensityAskT w m x -> CodensityAskT w m x; 11:22:00 nortti: uptime(1) explains it. 11:25:05 well I don't have man installed... 11:25:25 with a little bit of googling I found it 11:25:49 Why don't you have man installed? 11:26:29 well I have man but is requires retawq 11:27:35 ion: Why is #haskell so horrible? 11:27:37 Was it always? 11:27:45 Probably 11:28:06 Why do you go there? 11:28:26 Because it’s not that bad. 11:28:32 Why do you go there? 11:28:38 Because it's that bad. 11:28:45 I don't know why. 11:28:47 Habit. 11:28:51 Sometimes it's good. 11:35:31 I made up the catch for CodensityAsk; can it be made finally as well? 11:48:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:55:26 (CodensityAsk Predicate) seems to be the exhaustively searchable set monad as in "infinite-search" package. The type can be proven the same by Yoneda and the monad seem to work same way too 11:59:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 11:59:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:12:01 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 12:14:34 why does autoconfig test for fortran 77 compatibility when building irssi? 12:23:40 It's a standard check, presumably? 12:40:42 -!- edwardk has joined. 13:01:20 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 13:02:57 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:26:00 hm 13:26:17 autoconfig do a lot of pointless checks in general 13:27:06 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:27:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:27:59 does* 13:29:59 oh. it wasn't irssi. it was libtool 13:30:17 irssi seems to have it as dependency 14:37:45 what a tool. 14:43:25 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:43:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:54:10 -!- Guest1087 has quit (Changing host). 14:54:10 -!- Guest1087 has joined. 14:54:13 -!- Guest1087 has changed nick to function. 15:04:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:04:07 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 15:26:51 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:33:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:42:33 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:45:06 -!- calamari has joined. 16:16:37 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:32:43 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 16:53:56 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:54:05 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 16:54:35 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:58:09 Do you have ideas to name data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; }; 16:58:55 ...did you expect an actual answer or did you just want to show off your unreadable piece of code? 16:59:06 I expect an actual answer. 16:59:31 If you think it is unreadable then maybe it is because you do not understand how to read a Haskell code very well. 17:00:07 These are two GADTs which may have a use in some circumstances. 17:00:11 Well for one I'm pretty sure that one-letter variables with no context to explain them are shunned in any language. 17:00:29 s/variables/identifiers/ 17:00:36 It is the uppercase names (X and Y) which I want to rename that is what I am asking. 17:06:05 Should I assume no Europeans here play the lottery? 17:07:38 I prefer not to play games that are based purely on chance. 17:07:43 Where's the fun 17:07:53 You might as well flip coins and try to guess the next result 17:08:17 zzo38: what operations on that type would you define? 17:08:30 or those types 17:10:04 copumpkin: They are types that may be used somewhere that intends a type containing the other type, sort of 17:10:09 hmm 17:14:07 zzo38: I'd name the first one B 17:14:30 augur: Why should it be? 17:14:41 its the blurbird combinator, aka composition 17:14:55 or thats the way it looks, anyway. :) 17:15:17 its not literally bluebird, ofcourse, but the way the arguments look is reminiscent 17:15:18 It doesn't seem like that to me these are GADTs. 17:15:31 its just the look of the thing, zzo38, thats all 17:15:45 X :: y z -> X x y (x z) 17:16:02 bluebird is B : (y -> z) -> (x -> y) -> (x -> z) 17:16:42 even tho the thing as NOTHING to do with bluebird, it still has that look, so mnemonically.. 17:17:06 lets see tho 17:17:19 X :: f x -> X f g (g x) 17:18:01 -!- function has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:18:29 (\(CoYoneda x (X y)) -> x (maybe [] return y)) :: CoYoneda (X [] Maybe) t -> t is one example 17:18:31 it looks like some sort of widget related to natural transformations 17:19:36 Yes maybe it might be something like that 17:20:35 -!- Guest75632 has joined. 17:27:09 -!- Guest75632 has changed nick to trout. 17:27:14 -!- trout has quit (Changing host). 17:27:14 -!- trout has joined. 17:29:58 (CodensityAsk $ \(X q) k -> k 'a' ++ k 'b' ++ maybe [] return q) :: CodensityAsk (X [] Maybe) Char 17:34:18 These are some examples (although there may be more). Now would you understand a bit? And then be able to decide the names? 17:58:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:59:30 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:16:58 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 18:25:29 -!- soundnfury has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:27:29 -!- soundnfury has joined. 18:45:45 @pong 18:45:45 pong 18:55:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:55:42 hm is codu down? 18:55:51 afk 18:56:06 It's down here. 18:56:43 Same here. 18:56:50 Gregor, fix your damn website. 18:57:23 is it broken? 18:57:31 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 18:59:13 -!- esowiki has joined. 18:59:14 -!- glogbot has joined. 18:59:14 -!- glogbackup has left. 18:59:14 -!- EgoBot has joined. 18:59:17 -!- esowiki has joined. 18:59:17 -!- esowiki has joined. 19:00:06 -!- glogbackup has joined. 19:00:25 kallisti: spirity.org requires authorization 19:00:38 is this intended? 19:00:47 -!- Gregor has joined. 19:02:01 nortti: for the time being. 19:02:35 nortti: wait are you getting an auth challenge? 19:02:41 because I'm just getting a 403 19:02:58 I am getting auth dialog 19:03:05 ah okay. 19:03:21 nortti: I'm trying to set up subdomains properly. 19:03:23 when I press esc I get 401 19:03:46 right now my DNS has an A record where * points to my IP. 19:03:51 so all subdomains go to the same IP. 19:04:22 but I think that's... wrong. 19:04:55 why? 19:05:09 well, I'm not sure how I can have multiple virtual hosts on the same IP. 19:05:12 does it use reverse DNS or something? 19:06:03 oh nevermind 19:06:05 Host header. 19:06:16 you forgot _that_? 19:06:29 I... guess so. 19:06:37 I was thinking at the DNS/IP level. 19:06:40 not the... HTTP level. 19:06:59 well if you don't try to 19:07:23 what does the realm same for the auth? 19:07:26 +serve different ftp pages from subdomains it seems to be ok 19:07:36 or gopher pages 19:08:57 right, for other protocols I would need seperate IPs, right? 19:09:04 or can you do DNS tricks? 19:09:35 what I'm confused about is why spirity.org is asking for auth 19:09:43 when it should just be a 404 or something like that. 19:10:26 the auth should only be a for a subdomain. 19:10:37 strange 19:10:43 the main site shouldn't exist at all ATM. 19:11:06 -!- ernesto1 has joined. 19:11:41 -!- ernesto1 has left. 19:11:45 kallisti, https requires separate IPs per host in general. You may be able to get away with subdomains, if you have a wildcard SSL cert (*.foo.net for example, though plain foo.net wouldn't work then) 19:12:03 basically the server needs to select the SSL cert to use before it gets the Host header 19:12:33 yeah my current cert isn't a wildcard (I didn't even know that was a thing) 19:12:48 it is a thing, but there is no way afaik to say "foo.net or *.foo.net" 19:12:53 which is kind of stupid 19:13:27 anyway, I have no idea how you make them, I just know they exist (and I have run into that annoying foo.net fail thingy a few times) 19:13:31 I could do email-based verification. 19:13:36 instead of domain. 19:13:42 huh? 19:14:09 I don't know. 19:14:09 .. 19:14:12 right 19:14:31 do your site do spdy? 19:14:47 probably not. 19:14:53 strange that nginx allows you to configure ssl certs per virtual host. 19:15:07 if it needs the Host header to determine which virtual host to use, and it needs the cert to get the Host header. 19:15:20 hm, maybe that happens because the generic way the config is parsed or something? 19:15:39 kallisti, or does the same block or whatever allow you to define ip-based virtual hosts? 19:15:42 that would explain it 19:15:53 IP or hostname 19:15:58 -!- nortti-netbsd has quit (Quit: se you if I get irssi building not to hang). 19:15:59 there you have it then 19:16:10 the ssl cert option only makes sense for IP based virtual hosts 19:17:39 Vorpal: I got my cert through a free CA, and they seem to have email-based verification instead of domain name verification 19:17:47 perhaps that doesn't apply to HTTPs though. 19:17:50 *HTTPS 19:17:58 huh, that is kind of weird 19:18:02 Vorpal: nginx doesn't yet support SPDY (but there's a beta batch for it, so it's probably coming "soon") 19:18:16 SPDY? 19:18:23 nortti, google it 19:19:13 it's another attempt by Google to redefine web standards. 19:19:40 kallisti, well, at least they try to make their redefinitions open, unlike some other vendors 19:19:53 oh. is it the one they try to replace https with? 19:19:56 anyway, didn't it improve the bandwidth usage and response time quite a bit? 19:20:00 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:20:22 Deewiant, hm "In June 2012 NGINX, Inc. announced support for SPDY in the open source web server Nginx.[32]" 19:20:30 I guess that might refer to the beta patch 19:20:35 Yes 19:20:40 http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx-devel/2012-June/002343.html 19:21:55 I like the statelessness of HTTP, it makes implementation of simple clients... simple. 19:23:36 hm looks like spdy allows encryption and name based virtual hosts 19:23:40 possibly 19:24:44 Just use SSH if you want secure connections, instead of using HTTPS and HTML and all of that stuff. SSH allows you to use key based authentication and operates by command-line. 19:24:47 out of the box nginx actually doesn't support digest auth 19:24:58 which is why I'm using basic auth, because I don't feel like recompiling it with the digest auth module. 19:25:31 zzo38, ... ssh and https have completely different uses in many cases. 19:25:39 neither can replace the other 19:25:59 kallisti, really? no digest? 19:26:05 well I guess basic works fine over https 19:27:32 basic auth never expires right? 19:27:35 or how does that work? 19:27:37 hm no idea 19:27:46 I guess that might be an issue 19:27:46 Both basic and digest are broken without https anyway, and if you have https basic is fine 19:27:47 might be why nortti is getting an auth challenge and I'm getting a 403 19:28:01 Yes that is true they do have different use but there are many things that SSH just does better but they use HTTPS (or even insecure HTTP) anyways 19:28:02 kallisti, restart browser? 19:28:02 even though I authenticated like... yesterday. 19:28:15 but... but I'm using it. :P 19:28:33 kallisti, my browser is set to restore the tabs when it opens 19:28:38 so for me that is a non-issue 19:29:10 well, I need to sleep, cya 19:29:47 yeah oka. 19:29:49 *okay 19:29:58 now I'm getting the auth challenge. 19:30:08 apparently basic auth lasts indefinitely.. 19:30:23 how... basic. :P 19:30:57 so yeah I have no clue what's happening. so far nginx has been a pain to configure correctly. 19:31:46 You could even run other protocols over SSH if you need to, but often just SSH itself should do 19:32:19 text editing on a laggy ssh session is painful. :( 19:32:50 Yes it can be if it is not a local network; but you could just edit the file locally and then use remote copy. 19:32:59 yes 19:33:06 once I have my server config 19:33:14 I plan to use git to do automatic transfers 19:33:25 via update hook 19:33:33 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:34:12 so any push to the remote repo will automatically reset --hard a repo in the server root. 19:34:43 *web server root 19:36:01 yeah okay. 19:36:05 for now I won't use subdomains. 19:36:39 the only real benefit is that cookies don't transfer across subdomains. otherwise it's largely cosmetic. 19:41:20 -!- Ngevd has joined. 19:41:39 Hello 19:47:05 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:49:43 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:49:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:52:57 bye 19:55:35 To purchase stuff by internet, implement this protocol (keep the existing ones too but deprecate them): You connect to the online store, figure out how much money it is worth, connect using SSH to your account with money, issue a split command with the amount you need to pay to create a new account, send key of new account, merchant transfer to their own account, and then approve payment. 19:55:46 -!- asiekierka_ has changed nick to asiekierka. 19:57:05 But first you have to go to some store and pay them in cash for the SSH account, and the merchant when receiving money, go to some store or bank to receive the cash. 19:59:20 HTTPS is a stupid way to do internet money transfer. 20:00:30 zzo38: what is stupid about it 20:01:04 What I described. 20:02:02 i didnt see you describe it. repeat? 20:04:20 For one thing you need to fill in all forms, you need HTML, JavaScript, popup ads, and various special accounts (you cannot simply go to the bank and do it), there are some security issues (scams, frauds, homograph attacks, etc), and HTTP is for hypertext transfer protocol, for documents not for other things 20:04:33 Anyways, SSH use key based authentication. 20:06:49 SSH is just a more secure protocol. 20:06:54 yeah i think you're just doing it wrong 20:07:41 https is cryptographically secure as long as you trust the certificate authority (and don't accept invalid certificates) 20:08:05 js, popup ads, etc. can be disabled easily without disabling https 20:08:24 and i don't know what special accounts you are talking about, but i suspect they are accounts that most people already have. 20:09:27 Cryptographically, yes. But that is not the only issue. Anyways you need the same, if they accept PayPal then you need PayPal, if they accept MasterCard then you should need MasterCard instead; with my scheme you need just your service provider and the various banks have agreement with each other (by law), then you can pay them if there is such chain. 20:09:47 You need no bank account, you need no credit card, no gift card, just pay. 20:10:04 Whoever you are paying, does not need any of these things either. 20:10:18 Keep the current system but compatibility purpose but deprecate it. 20:10:49 i think you are a bit crazy 20:11:02 but what you are describing is basically covered by bitcoin 20:11:06 Perhaps that is true but I think it is irrelevant. 20:11:15 And no I do not quite mean like bitcoin. 20:12:03 the system you described requires about the same amount of work to do a transaction as bitcoin 20:12:17 paypal is a hell of a lot easier to use 20:14:59 No it does not require a lot of work if you have paid the bank ahead of time a large sum of money which you use to pay various merchants by internet. No forms to fill, no web pages to view, no virtual shopping cart, just ssh key file amount of money go. 20:15:44 Keep PayPal if some people prefer it but when you accept that method mark it as deprecated and specify SSH as preferred method. 20:16:00 most paypal users do not know what deprecated means 20:16:27 Then write "warning" instead of "deprecated". 20:16:54 Or specify in other words. 20:17:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:30:23 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:33:16 most paypal users do not know what SSH key file means 20:34:36 Yes, like I said, they can use PayPal if they want, even though its use should be discouraged. 20:34:53 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:35:10 yeah that's a good way to make a new system catch on 20:35:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:35:31 "hey you can keep doing it the old way if you like, but we'd rather you did this much more difficult thing!" 20:39:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:40:18 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:40:33 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:54:37 -!- john_metcalf has left. 21:13:49 interesting. there is a port of mksh to android 21:16:02 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: bbl). 21:41:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:42:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:45:21 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:47:09 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 21:51:49 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:02:25 @ping 22:02:26 pong 22:03:03 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:03:19 oon less botti 22:03:47 -!- oonbotti has joined. 22:04:01 More like "enoobotti". 22:04:09 oerjan: what does that mean? 22:04:39 i dunno, i don't speak finnish 22:04:43 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:07:01 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 22:38:20 would it be a bad idea to chmod o-rx /etc ? 22:38:44 kallisti: what is in there in your system? 22:38:44 I imagine some user program might need to read a config file from there. 22:39:11 at least /etc/passwd is read by some programs 22:39:13 nortti: the kitchen sink. Debian loves /etc 22:39:16 like irssi 22:39:47 I recall using a Gentoo box where /etc was o-r 22:40:12 nothing bad happened that I recall. but I didn't try much. 22:41:05 yeah so I'll just leave /etc open... 22:43:33 but yeah in Debian there's almost guaranteed to be a non-root app that needs to reads its default config from /etc 22:43:51 /etc/profile 22:45:45 but chmod o-r /home; chmod o-rx /home/* 22:45:47 seems pretty reasonable 22:46:25 not that I'm managing a shared host or anything, but... yak shaving is my speciality. 22:47:04 kallisti: you probably know this, but o-r means programs can look up files in /etc, but only if they can guess the name 22:47:37 which is probably all a reasonable program does 22:47:58 oh, it seems to work differently for x then. 22:48:08 can't cd into a directory if a parent isn't +x 22:48:19 or... maybe I'm mistaken? 22:49:10 oh right, nevermind 22:52:57 someone save me a lot of time and energy by giving me an rsync command that exactly duplicates a source directory and is easy to recover when the transfer inevitably breaks halfway through 22:54:00 I use rsync -avX 22:54:06 -a is the main one. 22:54:18 but it depends on what you mean by "exactly" 22:54:33 what do you want to do with hard links, for example. 22:55:20 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:56:39 eh i dont care what happens 22:56:43 quintopia: --delete is sometimes handy 22:56:44 since there are none 22:56:54 and my target is empty 22:57:06 what is -a 22:57:31 "archive mode", it's a shorthand for a bunch of other options. 22:57:41 kk 22:57:52 recursive, preserve symlink as symlinks, preserve permissions, preserve modification times 22:57:55 and I think some other stuff. 22:58:02 and X? 22:58:17 preserve extended attributes 22:58:37 you might also want -H (preserve hard links) and -A (preserve access control lists) but I didn't see a need. 22:58:38 cool 22:59:09 and --delete is nice if you want the destination to look exactly like the source when you're done 22:59:37 but there shouldn't be any orphaned files to delete if the target is empty right? 22:59:45 also --delete-excluded, if you changed your exclude options and want the copy to delete them too. 22:59:48 quintopia: right 22:59:58 okie 23:00:27 * kallisti has an exclude file in his home that excludes a bunch of directories he doesn't really need backups of. 23:01:07 like .cache for example. 23:02:02 .mozilla/firefox/*/Cache/* is another good one. 23:02:13 anything with "cache" in the name. :P 23:02:29 also .cpan, .ghc, and everything in .cabal except for the config. 23:02:55 there's probably countless other stuff to exclude... I just haven't. 23:03:21 i'm just copying one very large subdir, so i pretty much want everything in it to go 23:03:42 how large? 23:04:15 eh i dunno, many gigs. enough that i used -z. 23:06:57 it would be nice if rsync had an option that let you insert a script to execute instead of --delete 23:07:02 granted that's a huge security problem. 23:07:24 http://r6.ca/blog/20120708T122219Z.html :D 23:07:29 but basically it would be nice if you could rename target files that were deleted in the source dir to have a ~ postfix 23:07:41 only in haskell... 23:08:00 haha 23:09:30 some people would interpret this as a benefit of using Haskell, but I interpret it as a flaw in thinking that goes something like: "oh Haskell has a great type system, therefore my code is correct!" 23:09:53 which results in less testing. 23:15:39 I do test the Haskell programs. 23:20:02 But do you prove their correctness? 23:25:23 That would need to be done by mathematics. 23:27:48 * oerjan also chuckles at the last paragraph of http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/w7zd8/i_never_tested_this_code_before_releasing_it/c5b5n26?context=1 23:33:30 Knuth once wrote: Warning: I have only proven this program correct, not tested it. 23:37:42 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:37:43 -!- nortti_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:38:41 You (or someone) said my type data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; is related to widget for natural transformation; is it? That still doesn't tell me exactly to rename 23:41:27 i definitely didn't say that, since i don't know what that is 23:43:56 I did not mean you personally. 23:44:02 I means someone in this channel. 23:44:44 well edwardk is my prime suspect and is not currently present 23:47:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:48:22 Do you know what is it called if a tensor category satisfying: f . g = f *** g (for all f and g as long as the types match) 23:49:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:57:27 edwardk didn't know about that X either. But what would you think this datatype (GADT) seems to be? 23:57:40 I can understand some uses of it, but I don't know what to call it. 23:58:17 call it zzothing 23:58:23 zzonad 2012-07-09: 00:00:23 I think it might be related to Kan extensions as well. 00:05:45 For example you can have: CoYoneda (X [] Maybe) 00:08:34 I suppose it is a bit like (X x y) is decomposing the type x from y, sort of. 00:09:18 What would you think of this way? 00:26:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:42:41 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:47:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:47:38 -!- DH____ has joined. 00:47:40 -!- DH____ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:48:56 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:00:55 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:01:08 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:02:46 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:02:52 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:04:11 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:04:17 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:13:54 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:49:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:55:52 -!- rmdashrf has joined. 01:56:01 -!- rmdashrf has left. 02:14:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:15:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:53:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:25:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:56:20 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 04:21:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 04:22:32 -!- edwardk has joined. 04:26:45 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:27:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:37:14 I thought of simultaneous chess boxing where you have to call out the moves while you are fighting your opponent too. (You can use algebraic or descriptive notation.) There is chess clock but only the referee needs to touch them and to update the view of the board on the walls (there is none on the ceiling). 04:47:23 I figured out how you can make a free monad using a F-algebra: toFree (CodensityAsk f) = f (Algebra Free) Pure; mkFree x = CodensityAsk (\(Algebra q) k -> q (fmap k x)); 04:58:44 -!- edwardk has joined. 05:02:59 ho, edwardk 05:03:05 heya 05:03:32 how do you manage all your haskell code so that you can easily use it when you run ghci or the like? 05:03:42 I need to start cabalizing and that means I need more than one directory tree 05:04:19 i make a cabal project for each thing i work on 05:04:21 then its just there 05:05:48 but how do you ensure that ghci loads all your projects? 05:06:21 when you cabal install the project it will get loaded when you use it 05:06:27 eg. in cabal install 'ad' 05:06:29 then i run ghci 05:06:33 and import Numeric.AD 05:06:41 and it just works since ghc-pkg has the package unhidden 05:07:19 so you use local installs? 05:09:11 yes 05:09:22 i just use 'cabal install' as my build process 05:09:37 and then forget about the package and move on to the next when i start working on that 05:11:22 haha 05:13:16 another useful thing to make ghci happy 05:13:16 is to make your project source files sit in a src dir 05:13:36 and add it via hs-source-dirs 05:13:36 that way ghci doesn't try to load the file directly when you are in the top level project folder 05:13:47 which can matter a lot when you have interesting build processes 05:15:17 i try to do that all the time when i have a package with a c library dependency or something else complicated 05:54:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:55:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:03:35 I always run a Haskell code in GHCi although I may compile executable files too sometimes. 06:04:15 I figured out how you can make a free monad using a F-algebra: toFree (CodensityAsk f) = f (Algebra Free) Pure; mkFree x = CodensityAsk (\(Algebra q) k -> q (fmap k x)); 06:07:43 -!- edwardk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:09:08 -!- edwardk has joined. 06:14:11 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 06:15:16 -!- Nothing has joined. 06:15:40 -!- Nothing has changed nick to Guest46900. 06:16:57 * Guest46900 will be off to sleep in short order. 06:17:20 -!- Guest46900 has quit (Client Quit). 06:23:08 Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday. 06:23:39 `addquote Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday. 06:23:50 849) Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday. 06:25:14 Because g is a vector! 06:49:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:55:54 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:03:23 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 07:03:27 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:06:23 Why isn't it g then. 07:17:20 -!- Vorpal has joined. 07:27:42 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:28:23 -!- nortti has joined. 07:33:02 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:33:11 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 07:33:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:36:20 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:45:04 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 07:50:31 hm the mount options used on android are kind of crazy... 07:51:10 are they funny 07:51:30 most partitions are mounted noatime, of the two that are mounted relatime instead, one is also mounted ro 07:51:38 so the relatime has no effect 07:52:19 quintopia, http://sprunge.us/dEXZ 07:52:38 I like how it fakes the internal storage being an sdcard by using fuse 07:53:05 the fuse file system emulates a FAT-style file system when it comes to permissions 07:53:31 /mnt/sdcard is actually stored at /data/media 07:54:31 (I don't have a real microSD yet, going to buy one later this week hopefully) 07:55:26 http://sprunge.us/EGaM 07:55:32 also I don't know why /mnt/sdcard is mounted relatime when the underlying directory for it is mounted noatime 07:55:36 how does that work 07:56:00 fizzie, n900? What is up with the bind mounts? 07:56:03 Ah, Android. Because screw your concepts of userspace, we just want init=/bin/dalvik 07:56:21 pikhq_, I don't think init is /system/bin/dalvik? 07:56:30 (there is no /bin) 07:56:34 Vorpal: It's not, but they very obviously wish it could be. 07:56:42 shell@android:/ $ ps 07:56:42 USER PID PPID VSIZE RSS WCHAN PC NAME 07:56:42 root 1 0 528 356 ffffffff 00000000 S /init 07:56:52 Then you wouldn't need anything else! 07:56:56 what sort of name is /init? 07:57:05 pikhq_, fun fact: Samsung sucks at programming 07:57:13 Vorpal: presumably that's the path to init 07:57:17 olsner, nope 07:57:21 Vorpal: There's nothing especially "up" with them, it's just that the / partition is kinda small so large packages put themselves in /opt (which is physically on /home, a larger partition) and then do some bind mounts if they "need" to be somewhere in /usr. 07:57:23 The sort of name devised by people who hate everything. 07:57:55 pikhq_, I get two zombie sh processes every time I plug the phone into a computer. The parent is /system/bin/kiesexe, Kies is Samsung's PC bloatware suite for phones 07:58:20 fizzie, ah 07:58:50 $ busybox df -h / 07:58:50 Filesystem Size Used Available Use% Mounted on 07:58:51 df: /: can't find mount point 07:58:51 what? 07:58:56 the built in df works 07:59:03 $ df / 07:59:03 Filesystem Size Used Free Blksize 07:59:07 / 0K 0K 0K 4096 07:59:10 but doesn't make sense 07:59:30 pikhq_, any idea what is going on with / on android? 07:59:48 fizzie, ah I see 08:00:03 fizzie, which one is your sdcard? 08:00:05 if you have one 08:00:12 I don't have one, and I've forgotten where it goes to. 08:00:23 /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDocs type vfat (rw,noauto,nodev,noexec,nosuid,noatime,nodiratime,utf8,uid=29999,shortname=mixed,dmask=000,fmask=0133,rodir) <-- why is that vfat? 08:00:24 The thing in /home/user/MyDocs is the ~30G internal storage thing. 08:00:24 Vorpal: Only that Android userspace is a tower of lies. 08:00:29 pikhq_, well yes 08:00:52 Vorpal: I suppose to be "more compatible". It's what gets exported if you plug the phone in as a mass storage device. 08:00:53 pikhq_, the id->group/user mappings are hard coded tables in the libc from what I understand 08:01:02 Yup. 08:01:02 pikhq_, which means the busybox id doesn't work 08:01:13 well the busybox I have at least 08:01:21 which is presumably compiled against a different libc 08:01:24 Keep in mind that they literally *started with* a BSD libc... 08:01:34 They *actually had to work* to make this suck. 08:01:41 oh? I thought they wrote bionic from scratch? 08:01:45 No. 08:01:52 fizzie, so no MTP? 08:02:21 btw, my phone does MTP. It is kind of funky. Works kind of randomly sometimes under linux on the computer 08:02:32 It's a fork of a BSD libc with actual *effort* applied to it to make it suck. 08:02:39 pikhq_, ouch 08:03:04 That's not them being lazy, that is them *actually hating you*. 08:03:09 anyway, even under windows it seems like MTP doesn't do IO scheduling. You can not start two copy operations to/from the phone at once! 08:03:12 Why 08:03:19 Vorpal: No; it has two modes, the mass storage one and then Nokia's PC Suite mode which makes it pretend to be a pile of devices, I don't even know what all of them do. (But there's the "can talk AT commands to" regular modem one.) 08:03:31 fizzie, ah 08:03:32 So terribly many processes: http://sprunge.us/EahJ 08:03:36 fizzie, how much internal storage does it have? 08:03:52 fizzie, eh, not much more than my ubuntu laptop I bet 08:04:09 dragon $ ps aux | wc -l 08:04:09 164 08:04:12 32G, of which about 30G go to MyDocs. 08:04:25 shell@android:/ $ ps | wc -l 08:04:26 174 08:04:32 (this ps doesn't do a, u or x) 08:04:51 fizzie, why would anyone want 30 GB of vfat... 08:05:31 Why not? You're supposed to put your photos, videos and music there. Why would the filesystem matter especially much? It's not like it wouldn't format the microSD card VFAT too. 08:05:40 dont call it fat! its not PC! 08:06:02 well, you can't run linux software that want proper permissions from it 08:07:08 BogoMIPS: 1592.52 <-- the CPU runs at 1.4 GHz, what a strange number of NOPs per clock cycle this CPU must have... 08:08:01 if I understand the definition of BogoMIPS, this means the CPU can execute approx 1.138 NOPs per clock cycle? 08:08:03 huh? 08:08:57 the numbers on my laptop are much closer to a whole multiple (~2.000978) 08:09:21 -!- fizziew has joined. 08:09:26 (Home-SSH froze.) 08:09:27 (which probably just means the CPU doesn't run at exactly 2.26 GHz like it claims to) 08:09:40 pikhq_, any idea about that bogomips number? 08:09:59 fizziew, well, you can't run linux software that want proper permissions from it 08:10:02 in case you missed that 08:10:05 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf). 08:11:21 That was the last thing I saw. And yeah, but your regular user has music collection that is >> in size compared to software; especially since code doesn't take up all that much stuff. (Some games in the repository with large data files install those in MyDocs.) 08:11:34 s/stuff/space/ 08:11:38 Vorpal: Hmm. 08:11:54 Vorpal: Beats me. 08:12:23 Vorpal: Well. Maybe the branch takes a weird amount of time. 08:12:29 guess so 08:12:39 I wonder if it uses Thumb or ARM to measure it 08:12:44 that could factor into it I guess? 08:13:02 ARM chips don't exactly design for really fast branching, so. 08:13:07 pikhq_, btw did you know that android hotplugs inactive CPU cores in order to save power? 08:13:18 Huh. No, I didn't. 08:13:21 Makes sense, though. 08:13:43 also ARM /proc/cpuinfo is weird 08:13:59 http://sprunge.us/UhML 08:14:05 looks nothing like the x86 one 08:14:13 no model name either 08:14:31 that is from a 4-core CPU, I guess the other cores are unplugged atm though 08:14:53 also a refreshingly short feature flag list 08:15:14 on my core 2 duo it is absurdly long, even worse on my core i7 (sandy bridge) 08:15:19 http://sprunge.us/UTPP 08:15:33 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:15:59 fizziew, you have an arm7 on that thingy? I thought it was older than that 08:16:09 very low bogomips though 08:16:22 what is the actual clock frequency on it? 08:16:35 It's clocked to about 250 MHz most of the time, IIRC. 600 MHz is what it runs when busy. 08:16:53 fizziew, I thought bogomips was measured when it ran at full speed? 08:16:54 And the hardware is OMAP3, it's the same as e.g. the original Droid. 08:17:17 I've seen changing bogomips; don't know details. 08:17:34 my phone seems to idle (with screen on) jumping between 200 and 500 MHz, staying at 200 most of the time 08:18:17 http://sprunge.us/jTWT with a while true; do true; done running in another terminal. 08:18:24 huh 08:18:48 fizziew, did you run the shell from the computer or on the phone itself? 08:18:53 On the phone. 08:19:03 oh okay 08:19:38 fizzie, what about two busy loops? Or do you have a single core only? 08:19:44 It's single-core, yes. 08:19:51 It's not *that* new. 08:20:17 BogoMIPS are calculated for those busy-loop delays, so it'd make sense it'd change as a function of the frequency to keep the delay times equal. (What gets printed in /proc/cpuinfo of course needn't.) 08:20:53 pretty sure that it stays constant on x86 at least 08:21:03 It doesn't on my Athlon X2, unless I misremember. 08:21:24 (Oh, this one works again too. Phew; was worried for a moment there. Would've been a bit hard to go home to debug.) 08:22:04 fizzie, I thought you were abroad? "* [fizziew] (~htkallas@pc112.ics.hut.fi): Heikki Kallasjoki" 08:22:17 or do you have a bouncer at the university too? 08:22:31 It doesn't on my Athlon X2, unless I misremember. <-- hm it does on my core 2 duo 08:22:43 http://sprunge.us/gJMf 08:22:47 Here's from this workstation. 08:23:07 (Which also happens to be an Athlon X2.) 08:23:20 (Again with a while true loop between the two.) 08:23:25 fizzie, http://sprunge.us/SQJg 08:24:06 fizzie, you ran two such loops there? 08:24:07 Just goes on to show that BogoMIPS are maybe not the best benchmark. :p 08:24:23 Just one; the X2 frequency scaling is CPU-wide, not per-core. 08:24:26 ah 08:24:59 Just goes on to show that BogoMIPS are maybe not the best benchmark. :p <-- the only reason I looked at BogoMIPS was that it wasn't even close to a multiple of the clock speed on the phone 08:25:41 also the actual clock speed was not listed in the ARM cpuinfo 08:27:09 Could be a slightly different busy loop on ARM. Modern processors are so weird anyway, you can't just sum up cycles/instruction like you mostly could on, say, a Z80. 08:27:26 true 08:28:34 To answer an earlier question, no, I don't run a bouncer on pc112; I just had a backup irssi in a screen there. 08:29:27 pikhq_, any idea what "rootfs" is under linux? My laptop has it too, (only in /proc/mounts, not /etc/mtab though) 08:29:31 I'd check the constantness of bogomips on the Atom this client is running on, but funnily enough it doesn't do frequency scaling. 08:29:48 wait what, I thought atom was low power stuff 08:29:57 It is. 08:29:57 surely those do frequency scaling? 08:30:03 No, it doesn't. 08:30:13 is it due to the kernel or the hardware? 08:30:19 The hardware, as far as I know. 08:30:23 anyway I guess it could be related to kernel versions 08:30:28 which ones did you test on 08:30:45 I tested on 3.0 for my phone and 2.6.39 for my laptop 08:30:51 http://ark.intel.com/products/35635 08:30:58 "Enhanced Intel SpeedStep® Technology No 08:31:07 lol 08:31:22 wait, it does hyperthreading? 08:31:29 Yes. 08:31:36 so weird 08:31:41 I'm not sure I have a HT kernel on it, though. 08:31:43 anyway what sort of computer is it in? 08:31:58 It's on a Jetway "mini-ITX" board. 08:32:09 hm 08:32:33 Mostly chosen because they had a fancy add-on "daughterboard" that adds 3x Realtek gigabit ethernet ports to the one on the motherboard already. 08:32:35 speaking of power management, I'm pretty sure my desktop runs cooler under linux than under windows 08:32:50 (idle condition, screen on empty desktop in both cases) 08:32:51 So it's four ports in quite a small package, to summarize. 08:33:04 3 ethernet ports? 08:33:10 do you use it as a router? 08:33:12 Yes. 08:33:22 nice 08:34:05 It's also currently in an ATX chassis because the power supply in the tiny mini-ITX box sort of gave up, and I didn't see a reasonable replacement for it anywhere, it's kind of oddly shaped. It looks rather humorous with the tiny board inside the huge box. 08:34:19 hah 08:34:35 fizzie, so a full tower case or what? 08:34:49 s/case/chassis/ 08:35:07 Not quite, fortunately. It's some sort of a smaller edition, I suppose it's designed for a mini-ATX board. But still. 08:35:26 all those form factors 08:35:54 The "HD" is also just a 8G CF card with an IDE adapter, packed into a plastic box that used to hold screws, then electric-taped tightly shut. 08:36:15 heh 08:36:51 The IDE adapter didn't really have places for mounting screws. Though it *is* vaguely in the place where a regular 3.5" disk would go in the chassis. 08:37:33 hm 08:38:00 s/8G/16G/ apparently. 08:38:31 hm 08:38:45 fizzie, that is what you run your irc client on? 08:38:48 what about logs? 08:38:57 an nfs mount to a more capable computer? 08:39:03 a* 08:40:02 There's a cron job that one-way rsyncs the logs every now and then when the more capable computer (my regular desktop box) happens to be on. Technically I could be removing local copies of old logs, but haven't had to, yet. 08:40:24 Just 748M of them at the moment. 08:41:05 (They start from 2009-03 when I switched to the current bouncer. Things older than that are elsewhere.) 08:41:31 Actually, there's one more complication, but it might be outside the scope of this discussion. Or, well... 08:41:56 I'm a bit worried about the write cycles of the CF card, I have no idea if those do any very sophisticated wear balancing like real SSDs nowadays. 08:42:12 fizzie, hm I have 850 MB of xz compressed logs since when I started logging 08:43:06 So I've got the actual logging on a tmpfs that only holds current month's logs, and every three hours or so I batch-update new lines in those to the on-the-CF-card copies. 08:43:34 fancy 08:43:38 fizzie, why the tempfs? 08:43:52 to save on the flash memory? 08:44:15 Right. 08:44:29 Might not really be necessary, but I was sort of worried. 08:44:52 heh 08:44:53 (I've tried to put most of the often-changing files on tmpfs like that.) 08:44:55 this month: 881 MB uncompressed logs 08:45:13 that is a bit much 08:45:40 This month: 13M, uncompressed. My channels are obviously less noisy. 08:45:41 oh wait, it is two months. Seems the cron script didn't run to rotate it this month since the computer was off due to a thunderstorm 08:45:53 sometimes I hate cron 08:46:23 57M for 2012-0[67]. 08:48:28 * Vorpal runs find . -iname '*.log' -print0 | xargs -0 -n4 -P2 xz -z 08:48:55 (I should set up automatic compressing after rotating) 08:49:00 Speaking of N900, there's been a bit of a buzz in that a Finnish startup called Jolla, made mostly of ex-Nokians, said publicly they're going to make a new Meego/Mer smartphone. So maybe it's not an entirely dead platform quite yet. (Of course so far they're just *saying* that.) 08:49:10 hm 08:49:34 fizzie, n900 didn't sell terribly well did it? 08:50:11 I'd say that meego is entirely dead, but there might be people intending to revive it 08:50:29 No, and neither did the actual Meego phone (N9), but it's not entirely obvious it's because of bad technology instead of other matters. 08:50:34 olsner, so we might get an undead phone? Awesome 08:50:57 no, after reviving it will be alive 08:51:06 boring 08:51:10 indeed 08:51:23 fizzie, N9 had terrible battery time as well? 08:51:43 I don't recall that, but it's certainly possible. 08:52:06 my new phone actually has way better battery time than I expected. I watched youtube videos over wlan with it recently for maybe 5 hours, only drained down to 85% charge (from full charge before) 08:53:11 "The Nokia N9 has a BV-5JW 3.7V 1450mAh battery. According to Nokia, this provides from 7h to 11h of continuous talk time, from 16 to 19.5 days of standby, 4.5h of video playback and up to 50h of music playback." Well, going purely on the specs, it's not good, but maybe not quite "terrible" either. Anyway, new phone would presumably mean new hardware, too. 08:54:06 seems my phone has a 2100 mAh battery 08:54:22 N9's primary problem (I think) was that they didn't really *sell* it anywhere. I mean, it wasn't released in the US (not such a big surprise), but not in "UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and others" either. 08:54:38 ouch 08:54:57 my phone only has a 1250mAh battery 08:55:40 1320 mAh BL-5J on the N900. 08:55:56 hm how does this translate to mWh, which is what ACPI on my laptop reports: 08:56:00 design capacity: 51830 mWh 08:56:00 last full capacity: 48720 mWh 08:56:18 you multiply by the volts, I think 08:56:34 the mWh or the mAh? 08:56:43 design voltage: 10800 mV 08:56:45 A*V = W 08:56:59 olsner, shouldn't I divide by the voltage then? 08:57:13 depends on which number you do it on 08:57:16 or does the h bit change that 08:57:33 olsner, well I don't know the voltage on my phone, so lets translate the laptop to mAh 08:57:47 I think Wh is a better comparison though 08:57:54 hm okay 08:58:20 50Wh, 11V, that's about 5Ah 08:58:21 hm I guess ARM doesn't use ACPI 08:58:32 soundnfury, thanks 08:59:07 * soundnfury doesn't like the use of Ah and Wh 08:59:16 they're just big numbers of C and J 08:59:20 urgh the phone adb shell seems to believe my terminal is 80 columns wide 08:59:31 the issue is the path is like 70 chars wide 08:59:46 soundnfury, I agree 08:59:47 Vorpal: try setting $COLUMNS? 09:00:02 and/or sending the shell process a SIGWINCH? 09:00:15 * soundnfury doesn't know the context, nor what adb is, but whatever 09:00:17 ah yes 09:00:26 soundnfury, adb = android debug bridge 09:00:40 soundnfury, it is used when developing for android. In this case I ran adb shell 09:00:50 so I ran a shell on my phone over the usb cable to it 09:01:38 People who bother meddling around with N900 development generally just do USB networking and SSH in over that. 09:01:49 fizzie, USB networking? 09:02:16 you can do networking over usb? 09:02:19 is that a standard? 09:02:22 Yes. 09:02:26 I knew you could do ethernet over firewire 09:02:29 but usb? 09:03:08 Yes. 09:03:12 I guess the batt_vol_* files are relevant for the phone. However all but one just returns N/A. the one that doesn't just blocks 09:03:18 (in /sys/devices/platform/samsung-battery/power_supply/battery) 09:03:30 um, given that you can do networking over RS232, I think it'd be pretty remiss of USB not to support the same thing 09:03:40 You'll need a special sort of a cable to do USB networking for two "hosts", though. 09:03:55 But the phone is normally... the opposite of a host, I forget which term the USB folks use. 09:04:01 USB over ethernet is standardized 09:04:03 fizzie: I hope you're not suggesting the use of a double-A-jack cable? 09:04:04 ...er 09:04:08 Ethernet over USB 09:04:27 I found ago a couple of years ago when I plugged my phone into my laptop and found a network interface called "usb0" 09:04:28 USB /always/ has a master and a slave 09:04:30 them's the rules 09:04:31 speaking of special sorts of cables, I should get an USB on the go cable 09:04:38 Yeah. Great. Good work brain 09:04:39 found out* 09:04:52 from what I read, for an android phone my phone has exceptionally good USB support 09:05:12 soundnfury: No, they make cables with electronics on it to make that sort of stuff properly work. 09:05:12 someone hooked up an xbox controller to the same model and got it working for example 09:05:23 or was it PS3? 09:05:25 anyway 09:05:30 It's not a cable anymore in that case. 09:05:37 It's a device that appears as a slave to two hosts at the same time. 09:05:40 Well, that's arguable. 09:05:50 Well it might look like a cable 09:05:56 Chips can fit inside the plugs these days 09:06:00 If it quacks like a duck... 09:06:11 But from a USB viewpoint it's a device. 09:06:16 heh 09:06:19 Well it quacks like a duck when your system sees it 09:06:24 why would anyone want to do that though? 09:06:26 As a slave device, from both ends 09:06:47 so really it's a "router" that's a USB slave to two hosts 09:06:54 that feels dirty somehow 09:06:56 I found ago a couple of years ago when I plugged my phone into my laptop and found a network interface called "usb0" <-- what sort of phone was that? 09:07:03 Vorpal: Nokia N900 09:07:07 ah 09:07:09 as though the router should be the host and the PCs the slave 09:07:16 is that just network sharing over usb? 09:07:24 Well it can be used for that 09:07:32 But it's a proper network interface 09:07:37 ifconfig away and do whatever you want with it. 09:08:00 For 3G sharing it offers PPP over USB serial though 09:08:12 Because the stripped down kernel on it doesn't even have iptables 09:08:14 Ethernet stuffs are in the "CDC" communications device class USB standard bits. So yes, it's just a standard way to pass Ethernet frames over USB. 09:08:24 well I get an usb0 when I enable tethering with usb on my phone 09:08:25 oh well 09:08:50 since I rooted my phone I decided to take a look at iptables 09:08:52 It's one way to do connection sharing if your phone can do it, I could never be bothered to replace the kernel on mine with one with iptables 09:09:00 I suppose some phones might use that by default for network sharing. 09:09:01 it turns out that probably all ICS devices have iptables 09:09:12 ...at once point I was writing some kind of custom pipe thing to get interwebs over there without iptables 09:09:15 but 09:09:15 because it does the "network usage per app" thing that is new in ICS by iptables rules 09:09:34 Vorpal: Do you get a /dev/ttyUSBx device too, or just the usb0 interface? 09:09:36 I eventually found out you could just use PPP. Somehow I was under the misconception that PPP would take over the phone's 3G modem entirely and the phone itself wouldn't be able to use it 09:09:41 (That's what it did with GPRS on my old phone) 09:09:45 fizzie, sec, will turn the thing on again 09:10:01 But apparently the modem supports multiple users at the same time, or the phone emulates PPP and talks to the modem by itself 09:10:13 Lumpio-: I think the latter. 09:10:22 fizzie, no /dev/ttyUSB* 09:10:23 Me too 09:10:36 You could check whether you get pppd processes around when you share interwebs like that. 09:10:45 Or well PPP and AT commands and all that 09:10:54 But I don't really need to share interwebs with it anymore. 09:10:55 fizzie, on the phone? 09:11:01 I got a laptop with built-in 3G 09:11:26 nice 09:11:39 can the N900 do sharing by acting as a wifi AP too? 09:11:48 Yes, IIRC. 09:11:52 Never tried it, though. 09:11:58 And probably not out-of-the-box. 09:12:10 that seems to work better than sharing by bluetooth on this phone. I used to use sharing by bluetooth on my old dumb-phone nokia. 09:12:32 Well, at least for an ad-hoc network. 09:12:40 I'm not entirely sure the driver/hardware can do a regular AP. 09:12:58 ah 09:13:29 Haven't investigated, really. 09:13:34 hm there is an option for wifi direct in this menu too, whatever that is 09:14:16 also a DLNA option, again no clue what it is. says "share your media files with nearby devices via DLNA" though 09:14:36 there are also some options for NFC in that menu 09:15:00 fizzie, anyway does the n900 have a front facing camera? 09:15:03 I think it can be put in AP mode 09:15:09 Vorpal: Yes, but it's horrible. 09:15:11 But as there's no iptables, you need extra software to do routing... 09:15:12 oh 09:15:16 Quality-wise, that is. 09:15:20 I've only used it in ad-hoc mode myself 09:15:38 fizzie, samsung actually came up with a cool idea for it. To detect if you are looking at the phone, and if so delay the screen timeout 09:15:44 it actually works surprisingly well 09:16:00 The front camera is actually pretty good on the N900 09:16:05 ...as an entropy source for RNGs 09:16:18 I don't suppose anyone expects good quality out of those, and it only does 640x480 anyway, but even given that the N900 camera is quite bad. (Also AFAIK depends a bit on the hardware revision, or so I've read.) 09:16:22 doesn't work in a totally dark room, or if you look at the phone at too much of an angle 09:16:28 but other than that, it works pretty well 09:16:37 Hardware revision? 09:16:45 I think some software said the picture quality depends on *software* revision lol 09:16:49 How the hell would that even happen 09:16:58 different firmware? 09:17:08 I think my front facing camera does more than that 09:17:12 let me find the resolution for it 09:17:42 "1.9 MP, 720p@30fps", not sure about the resolution 09:18:25 1280x960 seems to be standard for front facing camera, and 1392x1392 is max 09:18:34 curious with a square camera 09:18:53 the back camera does 3264x2448 09:19:01 1280x720 is the "standard" 720p square-pixel size. 09:19:13 So I guess they wanted the resolution to be > than that. 09:19:13 ah 09:19:18 right 09:19:26 fizzie, I guess maybe for the anti-shake feature 09:19:30 they want a bit of leeway 09:19:51 since I doubt it has a physical anti-shake (like my Minolta Dimage A2 does) 09:20:17 (you can hear the anti-shake motor when you take an exposure with that option turned on) 09:20:31 Daily trivia: you can make the N-gage get its internet connection via a computer (not terribly useful in general, but maybe in a specific situation) if you do a really terrible kludge. I've forgotten the details, but it involved DNS trickery to add a custom nonstandard TLD that it checks for. 09:20:56 heh 09:20:59 It's related to what PC Suite does normally to speak with the phone. 09:22:37 I believe 720x1280 is the phone screen resolution on my phone btw 09:22:48 though it is pentile 09:23:26 the dpi is high enough that you can't really notice that the screen is pentile though 09:24:14 also sub-pixel hinting for pentile must be a nightmare to program, since it would depend on the exact location on the screen to a much larger degree than on a normal RGB TFT 09:25:11 I think the N9 screen had one of those RGBG things too. 09:25:33 what is the DPI on that thing? 09:26:03 I think I mentioned this before, but it's funny how camera resolutions always count individual subpixels, while display resolutions (this far, anyway) have tended to report the number of actual RGB pixels. 09:26:36 It's something smaller, since it had a 854x480 screen. 09:27:06 fizzie, it isn't exactly RGBG though, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nexus_one_screen_microscope.jpg (not the same phone, and I believe the exact arrangement is different on my phone) 09:28:17 That's just a matter of how you look at it. I mean, it's not the usual Bayer pattern "RGBG", but it does have twice as much green than R or B. 09:28:37 well yes 09:36:01 Another thing I think I wondered out loud before: I wonder if there are digital cameras where, if you shoot non-raw and select a black-and-white mode, it makes the resulting image by doing something more black-and-white oriented on the subpixels, as opposed to just applying the same interpolation it would use for a color image and then weighted-summing the R, G and B channels. 09:36:25 It's not exactly something that would get mentioned on the manual, perhaps. 09:58:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:01:06 fizzie, there is an issue with doing that, in that not all those subpixels are sensitive to all the light 10:01:30 due to colour filters or whatever 10:01:45 there are however black-and-white digital cameras 10:06:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:07:06 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:11:17 -!- clog has joined. 10:16:51 -!- itidus21 has joined. 10:36:12 Sure, it'd still need some sort of interpolation. And it's possible the best kind would still do the R, G and B channel separately. I was just wondering. 10:36:44 dcraw has a no-interpolation mode for if you're actually photographing something black-and-white. 10:43:32 fizzie, heh 11:18:21 oops. 11:18:28 my toNAND is a little bit bloaty :D 11:18:41 mroman, toNAND? What does that do? 11:18:44 toNAND on p => q 11:18:45 gives 11:18:56 !(!(!(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q)) && !(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q))) && !(!(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q)) && !(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q)))) 11:19:03 -!- AnotherTest has left. 11:19:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:19:06 oh, so not flashing to NAND-style flash? 11:19:10 right 11:19:20 also yeah that seems sub-optimal 11:19:21 it transforms a term into just NAND-Terms. 11:19:40 mroman, how does it do that? 11:20:12 http://codepad.org/BfTFj88J <- that way. 11:20:27 I remember doing that sort of thing by hand in some electronics course at university. Forgot what the diagrams were called. Used Gray coding for the numbering of the states along the sides I remember 11:21:05 dammit, any idea what those are called? 11:21:20 shanon? 11:21:27 hm no 11:21:29 something else 11:21:35 de morgan? 11:21:46 shanon is a generalization of de morgan. 11:21:48 no... that is a law 11:21:52 Karnaugh 11:21:53 that's it 11:21:55 ah 11:21:58 Karnaugh diagrams. 11:22:01 yep 11:22:02 those 11:22:05 yes... they can be used for simplifications. 11:22:25 mroman, and to convert to specific forms (depending on if you circle the zeros or the ones) 11:22:37 but something is wrong else. 11:22:40 forgot which circling yielded what type of expression 11:22:40 p || q gives me 11:22:49 !(!(!(!(p && p) && !(q && q)) && !(!(p && p) && !(q && q))) && !(!(!(p && p) && !(q && q)) && !(!(p && p) && !(q && q)))) 11:22:54 which is too bloat for just an or. 11:23:14 im guessing some toNAND $ are uneccessary 11:23:15 mroman, btw I used Karnaugh diagrams at a later point once. When I was building an 7-segment display in minecraft, to figure out the mapping from BCD 11:23:16 XD 11:23:29 that is the only time I ever used Karnaugh diagrams outside that course 11:23:38 toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot ((toNAND p) :| (toNAND q)))) 11:23:43 ^- that first toNAND is bloat. 11:23:55 mroman, what is ENot? 11:23:58 :t ENot 11:23:59 Not in scope: data constructor `ENot' 11:28:27 *Main> toHuman . toNAND $ EAny 'p' :=> EAny 'q' 11:28:28 "!(!!(p && p) && !q)" 11:28:31 perfect. 11:28:49 *Main> shortest' . reduce $ toNAND $ EAny 'p' :=> EAny 'q' 11:28:50 (8,"(p => q)",EAny 'p' :=> EAny 'q') 11:29:00 Vorpal: It's not a predefined haskell thing. 11:29:03 @ENot 11:29:03 Unknown command, try @list 11:29:30 ok not perfect. 11:29:33 !q is not legal. 11:31:53 !q would use a NOT-Gate instead of just NAND-Gates. 11:33:38 p => q -> !(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q)) 11:34:31 Vorpal: https://github.com/FMNSSun/hs-experiments/blob/master/rewrite.hs#L419 11:41:56 http://codepad.org/X5HSlpTR <- I use it for fun ;) 11:52:45 -!- boily has joined. 12:29:47 a => (b => a) is to my surprise a tautology. 12:51:22 -!- ogrom has joined. 12:55:31 Well, if a, then obviously a no matter whether b. 13:05:49 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:06:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:40:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:52:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:09:41 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:12:06 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:18:57 -!- augur has joined. 14:21:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:21:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:21:36 -!- augur has joined. 14:22:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:29:38 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:55:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:55:50 -!- augur_ has joined. 15:04:47 "Notice also that this fallacy does not apply to situations where there are only two rival claims and one has already been falsified, then we may justly establish the truth of the other even if we cannot find evidence for or against it." 15:04:50 http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/fallacy/fallacy-list.php 15:05:22 Err....... I mean, I guess that's strictly speaking true, if there is in fact some situation in which there are literally only two options 15:05:45 But there are fallacies where people wrongly think there are only two options 15:05:47 :/ 15:12:09 Sgeo: "either X or Y" is "evidence for X" 15:40:42 Sgeo, that follows from the law of excluded middle in a logic which include that law 15:40:53 unless I completely misunderstood what you meant 15:47:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:58:06 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:27:14 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Ãœnicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:00:48 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:08:29 -!- calamari has joined. 17:57:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:01:03 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:01:06 Hello! 18:08:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:13:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:13:28 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:14:12 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:19:16 Taneb, hi 18:19:30 Is it right to say that, in Haskell, if you have f :: (), there are two possibilities for it, f = () and f = f? 18:19:50 bbiab 18:19:57 define:bbiab 18:20:01 be back in a bit 18:20:09 Thanks, Sgeo 18:20:13 And I think f = _|_ is a clearer way of putting it 18:20:15 You're welcome 18:20:23 That works too 18:20:45 I'd say there's two possibilities, but only one possible value. Is that right? 18:21:00 Don't ask me about terminology 18:21:03 f = () is the only fully defined possibility, but f = f and f = undefined and f = error "42" are other possibilities 18:21:20 So I would also say there is only one possible value. 18:21:49 I'm trying to teach myself, for fun, without the use of any tutorial, how to write a compiler 18:21:59 With 0x10c's DCPU as the target platform. 18:22:05 I've picked a bad language to compile 18:22:36 You didn't mention the language. Or was it Haskell? 18:22:51 Yes, it's Haskell 18:23:16 I think I'm trying to do way too much in compile-time 18:23:23 brb, thirsty 18:23:41 ...........I wonder if the thing that ais523 and I proved is provable with Coq 18:23:51 Taneb: Trying to do too much in compile-time? No, you are not. 18:24:24 *Trying to do too much in compile-time you are not. 18:24:44 Hmm 18:24:51 I think it is against the rules of Haskell for the compiler to assume f :: () implies f = () but it is OK for Ibtlfmm compiler (but not an interpreter) to assume that. 18:25:44 Yes, it's Haskell <-- trying to compile haskell? you crazy? 18:25:49 Maybe if I created my own language (I've done it before, heh, otherwise I'd be ashamed to be on this channel), then create a Haskell to that language compiler, that would be easier 18:26:15 Maybe you could compile something simpler, that's what most people do, I'd say. 18:27:36 Perhaps MIBBLLII? 18:27:53 Am I mad? 18:28:15 You're dead-set to compile something lazy and as different from the resulting machine code that is physically possible? 18:28:35 MIBBLLII isn't necessarily lazy 18:28:41 But yes 18:28:53 Compile LLVM 18:29:06 I figure I mayswell dive in at the deep end and try not to drown 18:30:07 As opposed to walking from the shallow end towards the deep end and testing the whole drowning thing a little more safely. Well, sure. 18:30:31 Seeing as this, for now, is but a hobby. 18:31:05 For gods' sake, I'm writing a compiler for a platform that is from an unreleased video game! 18:31:29 the one from minecraft's creator? 18:31:50 Yeah, that's the one 18:32:26 Wow, when I type "p" in chrome, the top result is the spec for the DCPU 18:32:38 Second is "prime factors of 421" 18:32:44 iirc, it's prime in of itself 18:32:55 Maybe it's personalized for you. 18:33:14 "P-magazine | Elke dinsdag het vuur aan de lont!" is my current top result. 18:33:20 I'd hate it to be personalised for someone else 18:34:15 "Uitgeverij P poëzie kunst geschiedenis creatief leuven" is #2. 18:34:42 I don't know what any of that means. 18:35:03 Taneb, UPDATE 18:35:26 something about a publisher of poetry, art, something and creative living 18:35:26 WHAT HAPPENED TO HIATUS 18:35:36 (guessing) 18:35:55 but I mean, dutch - how hard can it be? 18:38:18 Taneb, was going to be an update on 11th or before 18:38:28 Hiatus presumably back on, waiting for EoA6A3 18:38:42 I don't think 'leuven' is about living. Google Translate translates it as "slots", but in this case it's probably just the name of this city maybe. 18:38:44 brb again 18:38:56 Dutch so far has been rather easy to decode, that's true. 18:39:26 Dutch is just English with a funny accent. 18:39:43 There's quite a bit of German in there. Or is that just more English with a different accent? 18:40:07 I think it's an english/german/scandinavian hybrid 18:40:28 or maybe it's equally similar to every language in the world 18:40:53 for some reason I think geschiedenis means separate 18:41:01 Pickpocket is "zakkenroller", a warning about them loops in some of the trains. 18:43:19 heh 18:43:27 nice word 18:43:49 for some reason I think geschiedenis means separate <-- does it though? 18:44:08 A kobold has zakkenrolled a potion from you. 18:44:10 Vorpal: one guess and suddenly I'm the authority on dutch? 18:44:27 olsner, sure 18:44:46 Taneb, I didn't even notice the additional pages 18:44:47 ok then, it does mean that and I know because I'm the dutchmaster 18:45:53 I knew it 18:46:06 Back 18:47:09 -!- boily has joined. 18:48:46 hm heat exchangers installed for heating the house during winter are suboptimal when used to cool. The first floor is now frigid and the upper floor is still as hot as before. Oh well 18:51:13 also, why am I not super-tired, I only managed to sleep like 2.5 hours during the night (I hate loud seagulls), and I was up all day yesterday, and today. 18:52:10 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:52:42 Sgeo... that update... 18:53:08 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 18:53:29 First I don't notice the ==> 18:53:36 Then, page 7150 breaks my browser 18:53:49 Sgeo, update to what? 18:53:56 Vorpal, Homestuck 18:54:01 ah 18:57:14 7150, if I had an iPhone, I'd want that as my wallpaper 19:00:45 7138 is taking so long to load 19:02:34 I must have got in before everybody else noticed 19:02:37 Thanks, Sgeo 19:02:41 what are you talking about? 19:02:53 Homestuck 19:03:16 One of the most esoteric web media projects out there (it's not a webcomic anymore.) 19:04:08 OK that entrance sequence still wasn't as good as the 2nd through 4th but it was close. 19:05:12 Taneb, what is it then? 19:05:21 Taneb, I haven't been keeping up with it 19:05:22 It's a web media project, duh. 19:05:23 A web multimedia project 19:05:39 well, it used to have the occasional flash every now and then before too? 19:05:55 It encompasses webcomics, music, short video games, pseudo-interactive fiction, and others 19:06:24 oh my god red dwarf references!!! 19:07:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:08:19 wow, what the hell is up with mediafire today, this 91 MB download has been running for 3 hours, with another hour estimated to go 19:08:20 red dwarf references!? where !? 19:08:32 Phantom_Hoover, what is red dwarf? 19:08:39 Vorpal, fuck off 19:08:43 Vorpal: what are you downloading from mediafire? 19:08:43 what? 19:08:43 olsner, homestuck 19:09:12 olsner, a zip file 19:09:35 Vorpal, Red Dwarf was a sci-fi TV series. 19:09:38 Also a kind of star 19:09:42 Vorpal: is it amateur porn you got linked from 4chan or something? 19:09:46 Taneb, I know the latter meaning 19:09:52 olsner, no it is a boring android related thingy 19:10:03 Vorpal: boring 19:10:23 amateur android porn? 19:10:30 sounds awesome 19:11:43 (the androids are not paid to be androids, ofc) 19:12:10 also ok this is now my joint third favourite entrance sequence 19:14:11 Tell me when it reaches first 19:15:38 sorry 19:15:56 it cannot beat rose's or jade's 19:16:19 especially not rose's because it represents my single favourite point in homestuck 19:16:41 By which I mean it's my favourite 19:16:54 sorry you are wrong 19:16:55 I'm not here to enforce my opinions. 19:17:09 I also almost wrote "here" twice in that sentence 19:17:11 obviously, they're so wrong 19:30:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:34:00 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 19:36:06 Whatever document I have written in TeX, you should be able to compile them on any computer having TeX even in future and even in past, since it is the same TeX everywhere. 19:37:24 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:37:25 TeX: the original programming language. that xkcd about the universe being written in perl and lisp was just propaganda. 19:38:12 But it might not necessarily work if you use one of the programs other than "tex" (such as "pdftex", "latex", etc). 19:42:15 Now the X and Y types I have written about yesterday, I have called Decompose and Recompose. 19:43:39 I have made those and other things available in "for-free" package. 19:47:32 oerjan: ah, but TeX was written in WEB, and Don Knuth himself is actually written in XSLT (yeah, I was shocked too) 19:48:08 makes sense. 19:49:02 What's XSLT written in? (dun dun DUN) 19:49:10 Unicorns. 19:49:33 11:23:38: toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot ((toNAND p) :| (toNAND q)))) 19:49:36 11:23:43: ^- that first toNAND is bloat. 19:50:13 try with toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot p :& Enot q)) 19:50:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:50:48 :t fix 19:50:49 forall a. (a -> a) -> a 19:51:02 mroman: ^ 19:51:13 What? 19:51:19 I was just thinking aloud 19:51:30 ...i wasn't talking to you 19:51:50 I misparsed your caret 19:51:57 :t fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else r (a - 1)) 19:51:58 forall a t. (Num a, Num t) => a -> t 19:52:09 > fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else r (a - 1)) 10 19:52:11 1 19:52:19 > fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else a * r (a - 1)) 10 19:52:20 3628800 19:52:45 @pl fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else a * r (a - 1)) 19:52:45 fix (ap (flip if' 1 . (0 ==)) . ap (*) . (. subtract 1)) 19:52:53 Stupid ugly code 19:53:06 But pointless recursive factorial! 19:53:15 some combination of fix and zip`ap`tail should work 19:53:26 :t zip `ap` tail 19:53:27 forall b. [b] -> [(b, b)] 19:53:40 Taneb: Now write a recursive factorial in Eniuq 19:53:46 :t zipWith (*) `ap` tail 19:53:46 > zip `ap` tail $ [1,2,3] 19:53:48 [(1,2),(2,3)] 19:53:48 forall a. (Num a) => [a] -> [a] 19:54:04 soundnfury, I know not what Eniuq is 19:54:10 (Disclaimer: May not be possible. Management accepts no liability for loss of sanity. Brains parked at owners' risk.) 19:54:15 ...it's quine backwards, that's what it is 19:54:16 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eniuq 19:54:35 It's my latest esolang, is what it is 19:54:49 unfortunately I'm not crazy enough to be able to write programs in it 19:55:02 I'm crazy 19:55:05 I'll give it a go 19:55:18 it took me three hours to write unary.en 19:55:31 which looks like this: ?1-"I~1-~84*3+f!1+4*5d3**+84*3+Dk84*3+"48*2+D48*2+O`Oo 19:56:32 > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{-odd-}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(+)<$>(+)1)$1 19:56:33 [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,5... 19:57:11 Gesundheit! 19:57:54 Do you like the format of the ITMCK manual so far? 19:58:27 (that right there is probably the most useful haskell program I've ever written) 19:59:15 olsner, have you seen my interactive factorial program? 19:59:26 It's the most controversial Haskell program on Uncyclopedia 19:59:32 I'd say there's two possibilities, but only one possible value. Is that right? <-- that is not the standard haskell view, although i recall someone starting a flame war defending your interpretation 20:00:08 oerjan: Well, I agree, there is two possibilities but only one possible value. 20:00:26 Two possibilities in a practical sense, one value in a theoretical sense 20:00:27 Actually there are more than two possibilities. 20:00:55 Ignoring any output to stderr 20:00:59 Taneb: I think I have not, where is it? 20:01:06 Taneb: no, there are >= 2 values in the theoretical sense. haskell uses denotational semantics. 20:01:14 olsner, uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Haskell 20:01:21 Since you might have error "42" or error "I AM ERROR" or unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "Hello, World!") or a bunch of other possible stuff. 20:02:00 " the Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphism section is outdated and wrong. The real code is ..." :D 20:02:02 But the only proper value would be f = () 20:02:33 Taneb: oh, the one with all the <*> and unsafeCoerces? 20:02:37 Yeah 20:02:45 It works, but takes ages for bigger numbers 20:02:50 * oerjan shouldn't be shocked about zzo38 not accepting the standard view of haskell. 20:02:52 It seem to me that it is like the SK combinators 20:02:55 Where bigger means more than about 8 or 9 20:03:05 zzo38, that is EXACTLY how it works 20:03:43 I initially wrote it in SKI, then translated and fixed compily errors 20:04:43 Hey, Christopher Eccleston is on 20:04:48 Yes that is what it looks like to me. 20:05:37 Three pures, one (<*>), and the only print each have an explicit type signature 20:06:46 This is because the unsafeCoerces confues GHC, and presumably every other Haskell compiler 20:07:18 I think a couple of unsafeCoerces can be replaced by id 20:07:36 you probably have a few unnecessary parens there, have you tried minimizing them? 20:08:03 That was an earlier version, I'm not sure where the final one has got to 20:08:27 And yes, I did 20:10:50 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:16:15 zzo38: ITMCK? 20:17:59 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:18:07 oerjan: That wont work. 20:18:15 p might be an expression containing another or ;) 20:18:20 but I already fixed it. 20:18:26 soundnfury: http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/itmck are two webpages with information. 20:18:32 I also added support for xor 20:18:38 and noImplication, noEqu, noXor 20:18:45 But I can send the files directly too if you want specific files. 20:18:50 so that (((a == b) ^^ c) => d) (^^ is xor) 20:18:52 translates to 20:19:00 (!((!!((!a && b) || (a && !b)) && c) || (!((!a && b) || (a && !b)) && !c)) || d) 20:19:04 Isn't noEqu Xor? 20:19:14 noEqu uses xor, yes. 20:19:16 well 20:19:20 xnor to be specific. 20:19:38 In Haskell you can use /= for boolean XOR. 20:19:57 but it directly translates to what noXor would. 20:20:01 XOR is 0110; XNOR is 1001. XNOR is what I'd call Equ using your convention 20:20:03 *Main> toHuman . noEqu $ EAny 'a' := EAny 'b' 20:20:04 "!((!a && b) || (a && !b))" 20:20:23 Gah! how come gedit doesn't have a syntax highlighting option for TeX (only LaTeX) yet it has highlighters for shit like "Literate Haskell"? 20:20:33 Still the biggest issue is toNAND :( 20:20:34 Finished Deus Ex. 20:20:42 *Main> toHuman . toNAND . noEqu $ EAny 'a' := EAny 'b' 20:20:43 "(!(!(!(!(a && a) && b) && !(!(a && a) && b)) && !(!(!(a && a) && b) && !(!(a && a) && b))) && !(!(!(a && !(b && b)) && !(a && !(b && b))) && !(!(a && !(b && b)) && !(a && !(b && b)))))" 20:20:50 It just looks way too bloat :D 20:21:01 ion, I read that is Finnish Deus Ex, as the reason to soundnfury's moan 20:21:08 soundnfury: I don't know. But it is possible for the syntax in a TeX file to change part way through due to category codes, so it may not work extremely well 20:22:00 *Main> shortest' . reduce . toNAND . noEqu $ EAny 'a' := EAny 'b' 20:22:01 (8,"(a == b)",EAny 'a' := EAny 'b') 20:22:14 ^- but it's cleary a valid and equivalent only-nand logic expression :) 20:22:32 For things such as literate Haskell, you just need to find the line with > at front and highlight everything else on that line as a Haskell code, and then highlight the rest using a different syntax highlighter (which could be the plain text highligher). 20:22:52 However literate Haskell codes can also have \begin{code} \end{code} so you would highlight those too. 20:23:00 yeah but my question is, what kind of pervert uses Literate Haskell? 20:23:09 zzo38, it's plaintext dyed blue, iirc. Haddock docs are green, maybe? 20:23:11 < mroman> p might be an expression containing another or ;) <-- i don't see the problem. 20:23:19 ;P 20:23:20 soundnfury: I sometimes use it. 20:23:20 well 20:23:22 soundnfury, about half the haskell users in this channel 20:23:32 It's useful for blogging etc 20:23:33 oerjan: An or is not a NAND. 20:23:38 * soundnfury does not like haskell, had you guessed? 20:23:53 If you don't like Haskell that is OK you do not have to use it. 20:23:53 Get out. (jk) 20:23:56 The idea is, to translate a logic expression to NAND so that 20:24:08 you can build it as a digital circuit only using NAND Gates. 20:24:09 (I'm still not here to force my opinions on people) 20:24:21 zzo38: yeah, but I have to read it all the time in this channel ;P 20:24:29 tell you what 20:24:29 that means: No or, no not... only NAND. 20:24:39 I think that was what made me learn it, soundnfury 20:24:46 next time someone posts a Haskell code snippet, I'll post some Z80 m/c 20:24:47 !a is !(a && a) for example. 20:24:50 That and I sucked at Python 20:24:58 because !a is not NAND-only. 20:25:05 OK post some Z80 m/c if you have something to write about it 20:25:25 soundnfury: Do you like ITMCK? Do you like TeX? Do you like LLVM? 20:25:48 oerjan: An or is not a NAND. <-- you noted that my expression says to reapply toNand to everything, right? 20:26:30 toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot p :& Enot q)) does not apply toNAND to p or q 20:26:38 *nor 20:26:39 -!- Taneb has set topic: The Ünicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:26:39 zzo38: Dunno about ITMCK, I prefer beeper audio demos though chiptune is nice too. SIDs suck though. 20:27:04 I certainly do like TeX, although I'd write a program manual in either XHTML or (better) troff -man 20:27:09 Do you like PPMCK? 20:27:15 also 20:27:20 I had never heard of PPMCK before today 20:27:26 I know almost nothing about LLVM 20:27:46 PPMCK is a program to create .NSF musics 20:27:48 p || q -> !(!p :& !q) is not NAND only. 20:28:08 NSF := "Not So Fast!" 20:28:14 Currently I'm using toNAND (p :| q) = (ENot $ toNAND (ENot ((toNAND p) :| (toNAND q)))) 20:28:26 mroman: yes it does, it should become ENot (toNAND (ENot p) :& toNAND (ENot q)) in the next step 20:28:28 ncurses! foiled again! 20:28:33 .NSF musics is musics for NES/Famicom. 20:28:34 hm. 20:28:37 I'll try that. 20:28:53 * soundnfury is more in the Spectrum scene 20:29:04 never learned much about the Famicom 20:29:12 except for the "Famichord" 20:30:10 soundnfury: about you spectrum lisp implementation. why wouldn't (lambda (args) (foo)) work instead of (lambda arg (foo))? 20:30:46 oh, um, because that would be hard 20:31:11 but you could go ((lambda arg (foo)) (args...)) 20:31:18 ie. you can pass a list as the argument 20:31:32 but then (foo) has to extract the individual arguments from that 20:31:55 oerjan: Still pretty bloat :) 20:32:33 http://codepad.org/LeaJjhFp <- output of that. 20:32:33 mroman: well there are limits, iirc xor and equ are bloated when expressed in nand 20:32:43 soundnfury: Have you written any music? 20:33:10 oerjan: It's also bloat because I only allow binary :& 20:33:23 in real life you have nand gates with more than just two inputs. 20:33:45 yeah 20:35:13 and now it's broken :( 20:35:47 mroman: um are you sure you gave the right paste? 20:36:52 toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND $ (ENot $ toNAND (ENot p :| q)) is definitely wrong 20:37:24 how so? 20:37:48 the last ENot only affects the p 20:37:55 ah yeah. 20:38:44 your suggestion is 20:38:47 toNAND (p :| q) = (ENot $ toNAND (ENot p :| ENot q)) 20:39:03 what if toNAND returns something in the form of ENot (...)? 20:39:04 no. 20:39:09 then you got ENot $ ENot $ 20:39:13 whis is not NAND-only. 20:39:16 *which 20:39:32 my suggestion is toNAND (p :| q) = Enot $ toNAND (Enot p) :& toNAND (Enot q) 20:39:47 *ENot 20:40:22 hm yeah 20:40:30 :| is wrong anyway :D 20:41:09 it's just about applying deMorgan's law in the right places, really 20:41:44 Yes. 20:42:43 zzo38: you mean chiptune, or in general? 20:42:48 It still gets bloated way out of proportion :) 20:43:09 but that's most certainly due to the binary and. 20:43:11 as just a simple 20:43:14 (!(a && b) && c) 20:43:25 gets bloated too !(!(!(a && b) && c) && !(!(a && b) && c)) 20:43:46 Now If you add a && d 20:43:48 you get 20:43:56 !(!(!(!(!(a && b) && c) && !(!(a && b) && c)) && d) && !(!(!(!(a && b) && c) && !(!(a && b) && c)) && d)) 20:44:01 soundnfury: In general (but including chiptune too) 20:44:14 in general, there's a page on my site 20:44:30 But that's good enough for now. 20:44:31 http://jttlov.no-ip.org/music.htm 20:44:43 As long as it guarantees that the term only contains NAND, it does its job :) 20:45:07 chiptune-wise, I tried writing some AY music with SoundTracker about 5 years ago, but most of it was shoite :) 20:46:42 What is AY music and SoundTracker? 20:46:58 if you allow non-binary NAND, then ENot becomes just a single-argument NAND 20:47:36 zzo38: AY == General Instruments AY-3-8912 20:47:49 the sound chip in the 128k ZX Spectrum 20:48:08 SoundTracker was a piece of Speccy software for writing AY tunes 20:48:18 which you can probably find on World of Spectrum 20:49:37 oerjan: That would require too much code change 20:49:47 because then EBool :& EBool is no longer usable. 20:50:09 but toNAND was actually not my intended goal. 20:50:15 it was just a side experiment. 20:50:21 so I'm going to leave it there. 20:50:26 ok 20:51:47 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:52:40 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:52:48 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined. 20:52:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 20:53:45 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:56:40 Goodnight, guys 20:56:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:57:06 I probably should remove rules changing stuff to implication or xor :) 20:57:42 p xor q is smaller than (!p && q) || (p && !q) but it pretty much 20:57:47 ruins other rules after that :D 21:02:09 ok. now that I am making new version of my old lis.py I remember why I kinda dislike programming functionaly in python 21:02:33 -!- stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:02:55 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 21:06:45 the reasons it the fucking ternary if. whose idea was to make it have syntax (if_true if condition else if_false) 21:08:05 -!- stanley has joined. 21:15:06 yeah, they should have used a nice sensible condition?yes:no like C 21:15:24 or "don't do unless not or die()", like perl :P 21:15:58 how does that work? 21:16:02 dunno 21:16:06 it's perl 21:16:28 which does in fact have an "unless" statement 21:16:52 nortti: a if b else c is pretty cool. 21:16:55 and generally lets you put conditions before, after, or in compromising acts with statements 21:17:40 mroman: a, b and c refer to what in that expression 21:18:41 or maybe forth like condition if if_true then / condition if if_true else if_false then 21:18:54 well 21:19:00 its a IF b else c 21:19:07 thats pretty like an english sentence 21:19:22 mroman: trying to be like english just gets you COBOL 21:19:27 "Go home" if "it rains" else "stay here" 21:19:31 soundnfury: Good point. 21:19:35 I tried to learn COBOL 21:19:37 but I failed. 21:19:50 good 21:19:51 It's just a damn fucking stupid language. 21:19:53 to learn COBOL is to fail 21:20:08 I mean srsly 21:20:14 It was supposed to be easy. 21:20:22 but it's the total opposite of it. 21:20:26 It's worse than SQL 21:20:26 mroman: it is just bit irritating when nesting if expressions 21:20:30 http://www.coboloncogs.org/ 21:20:52 hell it's worse than brainfuck. 21:27:53 I actually can't find the real words to describe how much it sucks. 21:28:16 I tried 7 minutes now. But it's not possible. 21:29:16 s/real/right 21:30:58 is Sgeo trying to learn cobol again 21:31:08 No, actually 21:31:14 oh 21:31:15 who# 21:31:33 Although I've looked at Tcl, and I know that's not really well liked. Although it's not bad like COBOL 21:32:03 Tcl is actually fairly enjoyable, if decidedly odd. 21:32:13 why id tcl not liked well? 21:32:18 nortti: Because it's odd. 21:32:38 ok 21:32:51 is lisp well liked? 21:32:55 or forth? 21:33:04 forth no 21:33:08 lisp yes. if it runs on jvm. 21:33:25 allthough it's not called lisp anymore ;) 21:33:28 -l 21:33:43 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:56 clojure? 21:34:05 what about scheme? 21:34:23 the word "clojure" always looks faintly visceral and pornographic to me 21:34:51 Do I have to look up visceral in a dictionary? 21:34:55 Or is it not worth it? 21:35:03 it's like guts and stuff 21:35:54 @help dict 21:35:54 I perform dictionary lookups via the following 13 commands: 21:35:54 all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org 21:35:54 devils ...... The Devil's Dictionary 21:35:54 easton ...... Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary 21:35:54 elements .... Elements database 21:35:56 [9 @more lines] 21:35:57 intestines. 21:36:01 @dict visceral 21:36:01 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 21:36:02 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 21:36:02 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 21:36:07 oops 21:36:16 @wn visceral 21:36:17 *** "visceral" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 21:36:17 visceral 21:36:17 adj 1: relating to or affecting the viscera; "visceral 21:36:17 bleeding"; "a splanchnic nerve" [syn: {visceral}, 21:36:17 {splanchnic}] 21:36:19 2: obtained through intuition rather than from reasoning or 21:36:21 observation [syn: {intuitive}, {nonrational}, {visceral}] 21:36:41 @wn viscera 21:36:41 *** "viscera" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 21:36:42 viscera 21:36:42 n 1: internal organs collectively (especially those in the 21:36:42 abdominal cavity); "`viscera' is the plural form of 21:36:42 `viscus'" [syn: {viscera}, {entrails}, {innards}] 21:36:45 That's more interesting ;) 21:37:28 @devil BSD 21:37:29 Error: 550 invalid database, use SHOW DB for list 21:38:13 @all-dicts BSD 21:38:13 *** "bsd" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)" 21:38:13 BSD 21:38:13 Berkeley System / Software Distribution (manufacturer, Unix, OS) 21:38:13 21:38:13 *** "bsd" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)" 21:38:15 [46 @more lines] 21:38:59 @jargon BSD 21:39:00 *** "bsd" jargon "The Jargon File (version 4.4.7, 29 Dec 2003)" 21:39:00 BSD 21:39:00 /B?S?D/, n. 21:39:00 21:39:00 [abbreviation for ?Berkeley Software Distribution?] a family of {Unix} 21:39:02 [10 @more lines] 21:43:12 @devils BSD 21:43:13 Error: 550 invalid database, use SHOW DB for list 21:43:57 -!- stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:44:01 blah 21:47:16 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 21:51:08 -!- stanley has joined. 21:53:32 -!- nortti_ has joined. 21:56:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:56:07 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:23:24 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 22:28:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:35:08 Channel = (channelvariable-1) & 63 ; Channel is 0 based. 22:35:22 Why does it work like that? 22:36:52 Like what? 22:39:07 there are probably some dried grapes involved, madly laughing 22:41:51 :t mapMaybe 22:41:53 forall a b. (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b] 22:45:01 :t find 22:45:05 forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a 22:46:11 :t map 22:46:13 forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 22:46:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:50:48 > 26^5 22:50:50 11881376 23:06:10 Compose (Decompose g f) g = f 23:08:35 It works! 23:18:06 lolol 23:18:11 $ rsync -azvX My\ Music/ quint@74.117.158.92:musics 23:18:14 sending incremental file list 23:18:16 ./ 23:18:19 02 Hornpipe.mp3 23:18:21 Write failed: Broken pipe 23:18:34 how to fix a broken hornpipe? 23:36:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:36:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:49:19 quintopia, horn? 23:51:18 ;) 23:57:46 Is it reasonable to want to make a non-eggdrop bot in Tcl? 2012-07-10: 00:01:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:05:31 (Decompose g f) will be a functor if f is, although the Functor instance for Decompose can never exist regardless of what g and f is. 00:05:51 Since it is not really a functor, but it has one 00:06:30 Like a functor 00:06:47 Although the type (Decompose g f) itself is not a functor 00:07:13 Yet it will make up a functor anyways if f is a functor even though (Decompose g f) cannot be. 00:07:29 Unless, perhaps, it is a subcategory. 00:08:09 I mean it is not a endofunctor on (->). 00:10:03 But, say you have: newtype Subcategory c f x y = Subcategory (c (f x) (f y)); data Desubcategory c f x y where { Desubcategory :: c x y -> Desubcategory c f (f x) (f y); }; 00:10:56 soundnfury: You said you are going to post a Z80 code if someone posts a Haskell code in here? (Or, something like that) 00:12:59 POP HL;PUSH HL;POP DE;INC DE;LD BC,0;LD (HL),A;LDIR 00:13:05 there you go 00:13:59 Is this Z80 code a part of some program? And, what is LDIR for? 00:14:30 That Z80 code will fill all of RAM with the value in the Accumulator (A) 00:14:37 LDIR is LoaD, Increment and Repeat 00:14:49 OK 00:15:33 Now I can understand. 00:17:27 I have once wrote a program for GameBoy, which is not Z80 although it is similar to Z80. 00:20:10 did that have a 6502? 00:20:30 No. 00:20:45 oh no, some custom thing 00:20:46 The NES/Famicom has a 6502 without decimal mode. 00:21:00 Sharp LR35902, apparently 00:21:25 (Actually, it has decimal mode although it doesn't do anything. You could use the decimal mode flag for your own purpose, possibly.) 00:21:47 The hardest Z80 opcode to emulate is probably DAA 00:22:55 Is that BCD-adjust? 00:37:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:51:04 I have read something to make stereo NES. But this wouldn't seem to work with Famicom audio expansions. 00:52:09 But to make it sound properly with stereo you should make up the game or music file to use the stereo. (If you play a stereo file on a mono system, there won't be a problem.) 00:56:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: EEEK). 00:57:07 Using PPMCK channels, you could have: left=A,B,G,I,K,M,P,R,T,V,X,a,b right=C,D,E,H,J,L,N,Q,S,U,W,Y center=F,O,Z I think this way is compatible with the 2A03 audio so it can be used on a real hardware if no expansion chips are used. If you use audio expansion it could be use only in emulator playing .NSF file. 01:02:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:04:22 whew that worked 01:18:28 -!- augur has joined. 01:19:54 -!- soundnfury has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:30:34 -!- soundnfury has joined. 01:43:19 -!- Triclops200 has joined. 01:43:36 -!- Triclops200 has left ("Leaving"). 01:59:48 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:00:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:01:01 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:43:07 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:43:28 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 02:44:20 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:06:40 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:06:52 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:54:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:01:59 The free monoid structure is a backward monoid transformer, isn't it? So the free category will be a backward category transformer, too. 04:02:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:03:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:03:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:17:02 Is anyone on today? 05:13:15 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:32:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:45:25 What kind of a fool would try to program in a language where you need to know whether "the free monoid structure is a backward monoid transformer"? 05:45:29 Fscking Monoids. 05:45:39 also, lo zzo38 05:46:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:46:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:55:56 soundnfury: monoids are the bestest 05:57:29 soundnfury: Someone who likes mathematics, I guess. 05:58:39 I also think the free monad is also a backward monad transformer, it is not a forward monad transformer like Edward Kmett has (he agrees it isn't, even though his article says it is) 06:28:42 soundnfury: these programmers are difficult to fathom. who can say what it is they aspire to 06:29:48 zzo38: I recently graduated in mathematics from Cambridge. I don't like monoids. 06:29:52 There's your datum right there 06:30:32 oh man 06:30:40 reductio ad exemplum 06:30:55 lmao. i just saw ion in the topic 06:30:58 Well, there are other mathematical structures too; monoids is not the only one. There is also semigroup, group, category, functor, monad, comonad, etc 06:32:08 zzo38: why is sound more interesting than graphics? 06:32:31 this is a game of find all the fallacies in tidus' post 06:32:42 itidus21: I did not say a sound is more instresting than graphics! 06:32:51 thats 1 :D 06:33:06 OK 06:33:17 1) it isn't more interesting at all 2) zzo38 never said it is more interesting , hmm 06:33:28 Don't get me wrong, I love mathematical structures. Groups are awesome. It's just that trying to design a programming language that reads like a proof from the abstruse end of category theory does not maintainable software make. 06:33:43 i think that about covers it 06:33:55 soundnfury: and you've said that after a serious effort at seeing why people like that approach? 06:34:17 zzo38: my brain is difficult to live with at times... 06:34:25 as it sounds, it just sounds like empty maxims and knee-jerk reactions :) 06:34:57 it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing 06:34:58 soundnfury: Perhaps to you. 06:35:33 I just think its fans are living in an epistemically closed bubble 06:35:34 "I know math, and I know programming. I've never thought of trying one from the point of view of the other (and it seriously does go both ways), so it must not be worth trying" 06:35:46 if I had a dollar for every time I've seen that, I'd have several dollars :) 06:36:04 this is based on the fact that their observed behaviour and signalling is consistent with the standard patterns of cults 06:36:19 oh god 06:36:35 also: don't get me wrong, I love the lambda calculus. 06:36:36 nevermind, not going to try then :) 06:36:52 idea flow between fields is great 06:37:03 and programming<->maths is a shining example thereof 06:37:36 can you explain why people like monoids in progrmaming? 06:37:39 but the Haskell world feels too much like the "formal proofs of program correctness" movement from mumble decades ago 06:37:39 I just think category theory is good and can make a lot of things. 06:37:50 soundnfury: i've said worse :P 06:37:51 soundnfury: except the approach to it is completely different 06:38:53 it feels like you're introducing unnecessary machinery on a huge scale (and I mean *huge*; I mean, category theory? that's like a 3000-ton dragline crane) just so you won't have to [the moral equivalent of using one little goto] 06:39:16 it reminds me of everything that makes me hate Dijkstra. 06:39:22 And you do not want to be like Dijkstra. 06:39:48 are you sure you understand haskell 06:39:48 monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 06:39:55 But this is all my subjective opinion, and I can't really make reasoned justifications of any of it. It's a gut reaction. 06:39:55 because you're really sounding like you don't hth 06:40:17 oh, a gut reaction 06:40:35 monqy: I may be mistaken here, but I suspect that Haskell is like Quantum Mechanics: "If you think you understand it, you don't understand it." 06:40:36 * ion laughs at the topic 06:40:49 soundnfury: what 06:41:02 soundnfury: I feel like you might need to either read more about that approach to programming or opine less about it 06:41:11 soundnfury: Err, no. 06:41:20 (note that in truth the un-understandable bits of QM are all Copenhagen's fault. Yay Everett) 06:41:25 copumpkin: quite possibly both 06:41:36 but I'm feeling in an obnoxiously argumentative mood right now 06:41:39 :) 06:41:40 alright 06:41:48 feel free to devoice me if you think it's necessary 06:42:00 I have no power! 06:42:03 only the power to argue 06:42:13 but I might go to sleep instead, since I must wake up for work tomorrow 06:42:17 I have been up all night fixing bugs in quirc, after some wonderful person sent me about 10 bug reports 06:42:35 (it is 0742AM here) 06:42:51 oh, and I do mean 'wonderful', that wasn't sarcasm :) 06:49:52 I like mathematics, though. 06:51:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:51:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:57:05 mathematics is wonderful 06:57:56 "Those who can, do; those who can't, mathematics." Isn't that the old adage? 07:01:34 fizzie: I think you're thinking of "Those who can't, teach. Those who can neither do nor teach, become librarians." 07:01:57 (although in fact good teachers are very talented and all too rare) 07:02:22 copumpkin: I've figured out what you are. 07:02:29 You're a pumpkin that shoots arrows at people. 07:03:02 Says an arrow-shooting ppro. 07:03:28 is a copumpkin a ? I can never remember which is the copumpkin and which is the contrapumpkin 07:05:27 cop(|um)p(ro|kin) 07:05:48 no, that matches copumpro and coppkin as well 07:05:55 darn 07:06:13 (copumpkin|coppro) 07:06:29 cop(umpkin|pro) 07:06:36 cop(umpkin|pro) is, I think, the optimal regex 07:07:00 also I've just had an idea about how to go about building my regsexp engine 07:07:10 it has dags 07:07:30 unfortunately I haven't invented my regsexp language yet, so I can't start building the engine 07:08:45 ... in my twisted mind, i'm glad it matches copumpro and coppkin 07:09:41 I prefer cop(um)*[opr]+(kin)? 07:10:10 copumorpkin, copumumumumumr, coppppppro... 07:10:43 We need to define "copumorphism" so that you can implement it in Haskell. 07:11:09 But what do you want to define it as? 07:11:53 Something more absurd than Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphism. 07:11:59 If such a thing is possible. 07:12:28 i think we should drop it, it was a bad idea on my part to make a regexp out of someones nick 07:12:53 ok 07:12:58 basically.. i know its fun 07:13:03 i know i started it 07:13:16 but, if we let it snowball nothing good can come of it 07:14:19 mmm, snowball 07:14:21 tasty kittens 07:14:43 Snowball is a stemmer-making thing. 07:20:27 once i made a trivia bot, based on chatters... it ended up turning into an exercize in hatred 07:20:42 i can't let such a thing happen again =^_^=; 07:26:43 -!- Vorpal has joined. 07:26:52 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:27:52 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:28:06 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 07:45:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:03:54 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:08:34 oh, shall I bring in my chatbot? It has terrible AI 08:08:45 Bring him on! 08:08:48 (the answer is no, I shall not bring it in, it's horrible) 08:08:54 I'm going to do the turing test with him. 08:08:58 unless you /like/ gibberings and ravings about brazil nuts 08:10:08 oops i don't think i made the bot 08:10:21 i took an existing bot and loaded it with new questions 08:11:06 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:11:17 -!- Virgil has joined. 08:11:27 $Good morning. 08:11:33 soundnfury: Difficult whatever green speak uses labor processing contention watch gurgite intercal 08:11:42 I hope that prefix character wasn't already in use 08:11:48 $What are you wearing? 08:11:54 mroman: Is helps long let look last efforts #bay12games alloy tetrahedrite making here akath 08:11:59 Failed the turing test. 08:12:52 fungot: What do you think of Virgil? 08:12:53 fizzie: rewriting languages could be their stats 08:12:58 O...kay. 08:13:07 mroman: I told you it was terrible 08:13:42 it has a completely scruffy neural net 08:13:47 no baked-in language model at all 08:14:18 $hello 08:14:23 itidus21: Sense function language shall dead dinner soad recording one's message correlated 08:14:40 fungot: Do you even parse what is said to you at all? (No you don't.) 08:14:42 fizzie: you can write code pretty fluently, but i suspect it sorta does matter. r5rs compliance matters. 08:14:58 fungot makes more sense than Virgil 08:14:59 Vorpal: no kidding... the basic health required for normal life without depending on others is a problem 08:15:15 that first bit made perfect sense in the context XD 08:15:23 Sure, but it also quotes verbatim quite often. 08:15:27 well yes 08:15:35 fungot: You're such a copycat. 08:15:36 fizzie: then i haev to er, test it, or are you just happy to see me 08:15:59 $Who am I? 08:16:05 itidus21: , my do day : difficult noble dried deemed safest game 3 useful output physically 08:16:35 $Virgil, you have a lot of learning yet ahead of you. 08:16:37 I'm guessing fungot is using a Markov chain model? 08:16:38 soundnfury: there can be a valid identifier in xml is fundamentally retarded. 08:16:42 itidus21: Have latter much over having join few found getting fashion nist joints mad leaving 08:17:01 itidus21: unfortunately much of Virgil's learning to date was in a channel whose topic is Dwarf Fortress 08:17:24 soundnfury: well.. im weirder than virgil 08:17:24 also, xml is indeed fundamentally retarded. fungot shows good taste. 08:17:25 soundnfury: so was fedora core 2 :d. ( which i don't 08:17:43 itidus21: I don't believe you 08:17:57 $$ 08:18:02 itidus21: My love colour land ii nice act result problems indent asleep she wheels generate 08:18:41 im entertained by the fact it doesn't have a baked-in language model 08:18:46 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 08:18:55 -!- stlangbot has joined. 08:18:56 stlangbot: help 08:18:57 bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics) 08:18:57 bf_in (Brainfuck inspect last active cell); df (Deadfish); undf (Undeadfish) 08:18:57 dfa (Deadfish - ASCII); dfc (Compile deadfish to stlang) 08:19:04 my kind of bot 08:19:07 stlangbot: chat Can pigs fly? 08:19:12 soundnfury: If you want to think of it like that. It uses ngram language models, most of them trained using the VariKN toolkit from our department, but theoretically it's of course the same thing. (Though it's not quite the traditional "copy and sometimes jump" implementation but instead a "generate each word from matching ngrams" one.) 08:19:14 [mroman] They wish! 08:19:48 `quote research into fungot 08:19:49 fizzie: read-file does. that's the solution there is to be able to write 08:19:49 all interfere their record woman aspirations paranoid man steep properties space 08:19:51 16) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. 08:21:27 internet.irc.freenode.net = bots essentially spewing random words to be read by human observers 08:21:45 I was going to link to the VariKN page but the PASCAL ("Pattern Analysis, Statistical Modelling and Computational Learning") page is all "PASCAL Forge Could Not Connect to Database: PASCAL Forge Could Not Connect to Database: Project Summary: PASCAL Forge Could Not Connect to Database". 08:22:08 Not a good summary, that. 08:22:15 :) 08:22:22 fizzie, is that PASCAL as in the language pascal? 08:22:24 Anyway, it does variable-length ngrams with Kneser-Ney smoothing. 08:22:26 i suppose one day in the future it will be clear to me whats going on with these bots 08:22:27 Vorpal: No. 08:22:30 aww 08:22:38 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:23:22 "PASCAL is a Network of Excellence funded by the European Union. It has established a distributed institute that brings together researchers and students across Europe, and is now reaching out to countries all over the world." But they also have a code-share site kind of thing. 08:23:42 heh 08:24:32 Network of Excellence... 08:25:01 funny name yeah 08:25:03 They also do some challenge-style things on machine learning things. 08:26:12 Like the Morpho Challenge (unsupervised morpheme segmentation of text) that's run by our people every now and then, I think that's somehow part of PASCAL. 08:26:45 (Maybe it's not necessarily unsupervised.) 08:27:07 "AI is bogus" - Reid 08:27:16 (Oh, it is.) 08:27:23 AI is real. 08:27:43 When something stops being bogus, it stops being AI :p 08:27:59 If we know how to do it, it's just another algorithm 08:28:07 * soundnfury is kidding 08:28:30 i think AI is just an arbitrary name for a manmade machine which has the same properties as a natural machine 08:29:15 but do we want the machine to have the same properties? Do we want our computers to say "No, I'm on tea-break, solve your own damn polynomials"? 08:29:40 trivially no; so we aren't trying to recreate humanity on a silicon substrate 08:29:43 i don't things can just cross over that line 08:29:54 using AI to figure out the appropriate time to have a tea-break doesn't sound very useful 08:30:12 I believe canonically it doesn't matter what we want, since what we will get is enslavement by killer robots. 08:30:25 fizzie: not if Yudkowsky solves FAI ;) 08:30:57 my mum has one of those parent-who-is-loud-on-the-phone voices 08:31:03 Then we'll get the same but it will be done in a friendly manner. 08:31:40 "This enslavement may be monitored for training purposes. Thank you for using Killer Robots Ltd." 08:32:04 welll 08:32:22 "Here is some relaxing music to listen to while you wait your turn to be enslaved." 08:32:33 if there is any trace of sentience or life in a computer, it is probably not what we think it is 08:33:06 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:33:33 its... BEYOND what is written in books 08:33:37 It's life, Jim, but not as we know it. 08:33:44 the umwelt of a computer 08:34:12 I wish there were some way to experience the umwelt of a mind with a radically different sensorium 08:34:35 heck, there's no obvious reason why a mind's umwelt should experience time subjectively 08:34:38 i don't think it will resemble a human 08:34:46 soundnfury, umwelt? 08:34:55 time is, after all, just a differential consistency criterion 08:35:03 any more than.. a tree shaped like a bear resembles a bear 08:35:06 Vorpal: ask itidus to define it, he said it first 08:35:13 itidus21, define that word 08:35:22 itidus21: um, which it does, that's what resemble means 08:35:32 Vorpal: im not qualified. kmc can tell you how i talk about things i don't understand all te time 08:35:33 repeat the semblance of... 08:35:57 Vorpal: there's a funky dynamic varying xkcd called "Umwelt" whose alt-text defines umwelt 08:36:05 will that do? 08:36:15 i think xkcd led me to it 08:36:18 heh 08:36:54 my about they then be vassal reading eat events nice revolution tetrahedrite labor 08:37:21 also... there is the question.. of does everything have an umwelt? 08:37:43 for instance, if someone chops off my arm, and makes it protrude from under a bush 08:37:50 they might suppose i were under the bush 08:38:08 and assume that the arm had an associated body and mind 08:38:27 yeah but they're mistaken as a question of fact 08:38:36 but, does such an arm take on a life of it's own? 08:38:48 a physically counterfactual mind doesn't have a physical umwelt 08:39:03 soundnfury: well thats easy to say, harder to prove 08:39:09 although a counterfactual mind has counterfactual subjective experience, because syntacticism 08:39:20 your mileage may vary 08:39:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 08:39:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q rolebot!*@*. 08:39:25 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 08:39:27 steep hills may go up as well as platonism 08:40:28 soundnfury: well... it concerns me that we have to make up arbitrary constraints as to what might have a mind.. it sounds more of a game than a science :D 08:40:46 I think you should read Yudkowsky on this topic 08:41:12 Actually, maybe those two other q's that have very DHCPey hostnames and are probably ancient could also go. 08:41:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 08:41:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net. 08:41:30 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com. 08:41:33 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 08:41:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:41:39 soundnfury: well.. i think we "focus" on minds like ours 08:41:54 Seriously. Read Yudkowsky 08:41:58 lesswrong.com 08:42:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:42:32 found on earth, in the animal/plant tree, alive :D 08:42:45 $Does a counterfactual mind have an umwelt? 08:42:49 hmm ok i will google these words at least 08:42:52 soundnfury: About something down i'm secrets prisoners lead whats debate hurt raw range working 08:42:55 fungot: Being just a piece of code, do you have an unique perspective on these weighty matters? 08:42:56 fizzie: my mistake. 08:43:05 Oh, well, that clears things up. 08:43:35 ^style 08:43:36 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 08:44:02 yuck! commode 64! 08:44:12 ^style c64 08:44:12 Do Not Want 08:44:13 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 08:44:17 fungot: Say something stupid. 08:44:18 fizzie: stack requirements: 4+ of programming. fortunately, the horizontal resolution is traded for extra color resolution. it shows which numbers should be aware of this location can also detect when that line is shorted to ground. 08:44:27 It's from a couple of books. 08:44:27 soundnfury: well.. also.. there is the case where we think something isn't a real living being, when infact it is.. such as a movie hero hiding in a wax museum 08:44:35 $The ZX Spectrum was so much better 08:44:38 fungot: more 08:44:39 olsner: in machine language). the 08:44:47 fungot: What do you think of Speccy, then? 08:44:48 fizzie: the 6526 cia chip has 16 registers which are in high-resolution bitmap mode offers a choice of 2 will cause output to the start of some sort. without a filename of up to four dots across per character, marking the end of the parameters of voice 1, a 08:44:50 soundnfury: Work be someone interfering race just bear trust small theory copies ball weponds 08:45:01 itidus21: I think the point is that our beliefs don't determine whether or not something else has an umwelt 08:45:10 soundnfury: :D 08:45:11 objective reality exists. 08:45:41 There were quite a few tables in the books that model was trained from, so often it's just names and numbers. 08:46:10 c64 ftw 08:46:27 $ZX81 forever! 08:46:33 soundnfury: My explain take always ally having 30 4 virgil_the_dopey_bot play bone usually congratulations 08:46:36 soundnfury: well, i think we don't know if they are finite or infinite 08:46:42 I'll propose the C128 as a compromise, it has a Z80 in it too. :p 08:46:49 pah! 08:47:32 obviously both of us have thought about this entirely too much, you probably more so :D 08:47:35 i don't even have a bot 08:47:42 If you want a compromise, the only choice is the Acorn Archimedes, running RISC OS on an ARM 08:48:05 Well, I agree that everyone will agree that those are awesome, so I guess. 08:48:55 one time i was poking around in some store, and for a few $ each i got a book about 8085 and a book about z80 next to each other 08:49:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:49:22 naturally i just left them on the shelf and proceeded to find a cheap copy of the great gatsby 08:49:54 well I don't care because I have a garklein-flötlein 08:50:05 zounds 08:50:35 i don't have much books, but i am so happy that i got those.. that was a once in a lifetime find in a charity bookstore thing 08:51:05 online they're probably a dime a dozen though 08:51:14 >_< but thats not the point 08:52:23 humm... a lot of these machines i didnt ever see 08:53:13 but i watch videos on youtube showing games on spectrum, c64, amiga, etc 08:53:38 to be honest i find atari 2600 graphics so bad i can barely hold back from vomiting 08:53:43 soundnfury: You should compose a garklein-flötlein/flabberfleming duet. 08:54:03 flabber... fleming? 08:54:11 It's something oklopol made up, I think. 08:54:31 it's a balloon with a one-way valve that is actually only one-way when one atmosphere of pressure is on the outside, but when less, it lets air out (not depending on pressure inside) 08:54:35 which is also an instrument 08:55:18 itidus21: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiG8g1qlT9w 08:55:37 fizzie: outsch 08:56:41 I don't think it actually exists, to be honest. 08:56:47 Good. 08:56:54 @google flabber fleming 08:56:55 http://www.facebook.com/people/Flabber-Gaster/100002426347550 08:56:55 Title: Improve Your Experience | Facebook 08:57:00 But you do suck on it if it does. 08:57:01 eek 08:57:08 (That's the undefinite "you".) 08:57:10 i'm not clicking on a fb link 08:57:26 fizzie: one would suck upon it, were it to exist 08:57:30 Right. 08:58:05 my that of they colour ally naïve empty events impossible those internet's near 08:58:23 What sick person implements an esolang in powershell und puts it on pastebin so it gets deleted after a year or so 08:59:41 you had me at "powershell". 08:59:44 people /use/ that? 09:00:02 Powershell is cool if you're an admin. 09:00:10 And your architecture is windows based . 09:00:26 It's better than vbs. 09:00:26 people will implement esolangs on literally any platform :( 09:01:20 ANY 09:01:38 are there any esolangs on OS/2? 09:02:09 * soundnfury is waiting for someone to port Brainfuck to Tunguska 09:02:31 olsner: If not, by voicing the question you are now obligated to make one. 09:03:19 Anyway, you can run e.g. Python on OS/2, and there certainly are esolangs with Python interpreters. 09:03:52 Like Madbrain ;) 09:04:16 soundnfury: i'm a computer game oriented computer user. contrary to what you might think, that makes most of my ideas distasteful. 09:05:27 profit using oxygen having turning allied overall fort/my .png i'd math mysterious 09:05:46 wow, I got three words into that one before I noticed it was a Virgilism 09:05:55 $png is not gif 09:06:01 itidus21: Is each internet too optimistic fifteen mirrored sucks value raw range anyways building 09:06:14 ... yeah. So there. 09:06:14 I keep reading "Virgil" as "Vorpal". 09:06:25 heh 09:06:41 THat last sentence doesn't make ANY sense. 09:07:00 It's just random words? 09:07:06 looks like it? 09:07:09 these internets are too optimistic... 09:07:20 how does Virgil work? 09:07:25 and who owns that bot 09:08:22 Virgil and Vorpal are members of V(vowel)r(consonant)(vowel)l 09:08:27 probably if line.startswith("$") print takerandomamountofrandomwords() 09:08:34 10.11:13:42 soundnfury | it has a completely scruffy neural net 09:08:36 10.11:13:47 soundnfury | no baked-in language model at all 09:08:50 Deewiant, so does that mean just random words? 09:09:01 I'm not an expert on what neural nets can do really 09:09:20 a lot, as i understand it 09:09:25 well yes 09:09:31 Well, not completely random 09:09:33 :P 09:09:47 but, thats ideally 09:09:48 It's very close to random in practice, because it hasn't been trained very carefully 09:10:00 Vorpal: your brain is a neural net 09:10:13 olsner, with feedback loops too. 09:10:16 His brain is a positronic net. 09:10:26 well... by that definition 09:10:29 but I have a friend who calls himself a robopsychologist, who trained up a Virgil instance quite effectively, but then lost the net file and had no backups 09:10:31 soundnfury, how much context does the probability of a given word depend on? 09:10:55 $何 09:10:57 I mean, is each word generated independently or does it depend on the words around it 09:10:59 mroman: Morning : countries experimenters nook egg usually patience called gnu momaw giant 09:11:18 I'd call that random garbage ;) 09:11:24 well yes 09:11:49 is "momaw" even a real word? 09:11:55 ãƒ©ãƒ³ãƒ‰ãƒ ï¼ 09:12:00 momaw was a nick in another channel 09:12:03 ah 09:12:08 mroman, ...? 09:12:12 most of this net's training has been talking on IRC 09:12:18 mroman, I can't read that script 09:12:39 Then you're probably lacking asian fonts. 09:12:43 soundnfury, that is probably quite a poor source in general, considering how many chatterbots there are on IRC 09:12:50 cjk in particular. 09:12:53 mroman, oh I can /see/ it just fine. I just can't read it 09:13:01 Vorpal: there's a (possibly outdated) tarball at http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/virgil0-2-3.tar.gz 09:13:04 I don't even know which language it is for 09:13:15 I haven't been actively developing Virgil for about two years now 09:13:17 Vorpal: They can do a lot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybenko_theorem 09:13:26 It's japanese. 09:13:31 soundnfury, so basically by using IRC, you fed stuff like fungot as input? 09:13:31 Vorpal: if the shift " n" character shifts the printer is an addition limitation on memory usage, functional modules of code required, and 09:13:58 But it's an english word ;) 09:14:10 There aren't that many chatterbots on "regular" channels, I don't think. 09:14:15 ^style fungot 09:14:16 Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself) 09:14:20 fungot: SO META. 09:14:21 fizzie:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov 09:14:32 Vorpal: no, its input was mostly from humans 09:14:35 hm okay 09:14:42 fizzie, did you update that model after you first used it? 09:14:46 that would be even more meta 09:14:49 I don't think so. 09:14:51 aww 09:15:08 fungot: Go on, say something. 09:15:09 fizzie: ( c) a player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0 09:15:15 Sounds agoran. 09:15:21 I don't like that "anmaster no not markov" bit 09:15:26 $What do you have to say to that? 09:15:29 I wonder what it mean by that 09:15:34 soundnfury: My on explain we always was sabotage course countries circuit took experimenting 09:15:39 Vorpal: IIRC, it was elliott speaking to you via fungot. 09:15:40 fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance, 09:15:43 `quote no not markov 09:15:43 fizzie, ah 09:15:46 619) Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov 09:15:53 argh 09:15:53 $^*&^*&$$^$^ 09:15:59 THAT SWORD 09:16:03 ^style ct 09:16:04 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 09:16:08 fungot, SWORD! 09:16:09 Vorpal: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! 09:16:13 mroman: Rest doesn't then 10 :s crappily sterling :smug phazorx 88/56 premimu date involved 09:16:15 fungot, come on 09:16:16 Vorpal: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. 09:16:22 fungot, ... 09:16:23 Vorpal: you! take! we find! you, have that problem! ' tis the masamune! 09:16:23 It will always take a while before the sword makes an appearance, if you're trying to demonstrate it. 09:16:27 fungot, go on 09:16:28 Vorpal: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!! my powers are being drained. why not? then you should leave quickly! 09:16:36 fizzie, yes indeed 09:16:53 `quote sword alone 09:16:56 No output. 09:16:58 Aw. 09:17:03 fizzie, though the probability of it appearing on first try is not 0 09:17:09 Obviously. 09:17:12 fungot: Can the sword alone stop it? 09:17:13 fizzie: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! heeheehee... oh, can you fix the masamune! 09:17:28 what was the log searching command now again? 09:17:33 logpast? logpaste? 09:17:41 `pastlog sword alone 09:17:46 fungot, right 09:17:46 Vorpal: but, we are far outnumbered! just like crono! 09:17:49 log pasta 09:17:59 fungot, ... 09:17:59 Vorpal: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's a 09:18:14 No output. 09:18:15 fungot: festival 09:18:15 mroman: these unique items make us invincible! 09:18:28 fungot, and what about the sword? 09:18:29 Vorpal: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!! empty! 09:18:38 Maybe I should take a peek to see how likely it is to appear. 09:18:41 fungot, what is it that is empty? 09:18:42 Vorpal: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune! 09:18:46 fungot: ^*&^*&%& 09:18:47 mroman: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile? never heard of it!! he sold the heirloom, it should remain unchanged! my son's the legendary hero, with sword in hand! you got the broken! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh? 09:18:54 fizzie, didn't the perl script show it wasn't possible or something? 09:19:00 fungot, come on 09:19:01 Vorpal: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y. it'll be strong now. just like me! but everyone calls for the golemboss. 09:19:04 fungot, oh well 09:19:05 Vorpal: cyrus! are you leaving! what you do? wake you, but need dactyl? 09:19:14 fungot, ... 09:19:14 Vorpal: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! 09:19:22 fungot, tricycle? 09:19:23 Vorpal: cyrus! are you leaving! did you people just come out of the closet? get out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's a real problem when the person i like most! 09:19:34 I don't remember any tricycle in that game? 09:19:36 what 09:19:36 -!- itidus21 has left ("ex officio"). 09:19:41 Vorpal: The Man. 09:19:45 oh right 09:19:52 Vorpal: The quote is from one of the endings, though. 09:19:56 oh? 09:20:07 Vorpal: The one where Marle and Lucca are watching a slideshow. It's notable for being the only one where Crono speaks. 09:20:26 hm I don't remember that ending 09:20:50 fizzie, how did you get that ending? 09:21:18 It's the one with the shortest interval of time to get. I don't exactly recall the details. You do something in Zeal, but not the other thing after which you can no longer leave. 09:21:29 ah 09:21:35 See Schala use the pendant to open the door, but not energize your own, I think. 09:21:38 Something like that, anyway. 09:21:42 hm 09:23:01 that game really had some great music 09:23:08 It's not very likely to start with "that sword" at the start of the sentence, but it's nontrivial to compute the likelihood of getting the loop in the first full output. 09:26:17 Or maybe I can ask the SRILM ngram tool, actually. (At least for the start bit.) 09:26:52 my an why food began scary what's used migrants screenshots graduation remote punches 09:27:07 soundnfury, why did it just randomly speak? 09:27:22 Why did Vorpal just randomly speak? 09:27:34 ion, Virgil is a bot though, I'm not 09:27:54 whose is virgil 09:28:02 Whoever programmed Vorpal implemented its responses quite well. 09:28:19 monqy, soundnfury owns it 09:28:29 ion, yeah I could pass the Turing test with ease 09:29:04 think from back computer find internet televisions over up must crust acid legends 09:29:36 is virgil supposed to sound like this 09:29:38 A case of spontaneous wordbustion. 09:29:44 fizzie, are you going to do that now or was it just a thought that you could do that check? 09:31:00 Vorpal: I was trying to, but I can't quite figure out how to tell it to give a probability score for the prefix, it insists on just scoring complete sentences, so it will check for the sentence-end tag likelihoods too, making the number quite useless. 09:31:01 I'm not in a hurry really, but I do need to go out today and do some shopping. 09:31:19 ah 09:31:20 right 09:31:53 Oh, -debug 3. Well, anyway. 09:32:02 p( that | ) = [2gram] 0.00938426 [ -2.0276 ] / 0.99999 09:32:11 That's the likelihood of starting with "that". 09:32:15 Not too high, really. 09:32:16 ah 09:32:22 fizzie, right, what is the probability of there being such a loop at any point during a generated phrase? 09:32:28 or is that too hard to figure out? 09:32:45 That's too hard for me, at least. 09:32:48 ah 09:32:49 Except empirically, of course. 09:32:54 well yes 09:33:08 It's just that I don't think srilm generation actually ends up looping so much. 09:33:09 but that could be a lot of phrases to generate to find that out 09:33:19 fizzie, so there is in fact a bug in fungot? 09:33:57 Well, it's a legitimately different algorithm, it doesn't use the backoff weights at all. But there might also be a bug, since I think the perl script (which does try to implement the same thing) was less loopy. 09:34:05 Maybe some sort of a bias in the selection. 09:34:09 ah 09:34:18 fair enough 09:34:33 well I'm off now. cya in a few hours. 09:35:26 FWIW, after having just 1% chance of generating a sentence starting with 'that', it also has just 1% chance of following that with 'sword', as opposed to something else. (12% chance of "that was", for example.) 09:35:32 I think I'll a lunch too. -> 09:38:22 my today doesn't deep circuit carvers processor screenshots awesome keep 17607 chain 09:38:53 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:44:38 is people together electronics ally verb monitored whats party bragging gains ones 09:53:17 be bow forward green noble wanting aspirations opinion harvested muddy open write 09:55:23 night gets did look away living hardly trust house increase 3 thread former happens 09:56:57 need good propose look rebel suppose five around gains visit vermin stuf off feeding 09:57:36 thanks for filling the silence viergl "i knew i could count on you" 09:58:12 many for then person known fun fifteen inch master rust raz required linked tonight 10:06:43 after into air increased \ recording feeding copypasta family happenings doom camera 10:07:49 oh i thought Virgil was vorpal and he'd gone mad 10:08:55 you information each let whatever dinner sorry ai genius empty circumstances comrades 10:12:45 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:17:34 hello edward trying others example race machines porthole food nook egg * tetrahedrite 10:21:23 each person later 4 large lagless differently keep young soon diagnostic carpathio 10:21:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 10:21:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:23:16 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:25:45 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:28:34 I think I' 10:28:38 ll shut him up now 10:28:41 -!- Virgil has quit (Quit: virgil bot shut down). 10:29:58 back 10:30:32 blame mroman, he told me to bring it in; I didn't want to 10:30:49 soundnfury, what was up with it speaking randomly when not spoken to though? 10:31:03 oh, it speaks to cover awkward pauses 10:31:14 though the frequency of that seemed to be set absurdly high for some reason :S 10:31:18 so it was a feature, not a bug? 10:31:25 a misfeature, possibly 10:31:32 yeah 10:31:43 the default settings for that feature are a bug 10:55:59 Vorpal: Out of a million generated sentences from the Perl script, 1887 (that is, about 0.2%) contain the words "sword alone can't stop". But it doesn't seem inclined to loop, so there must be some sort of an issue in the fungot babble generation. 10:56:00 fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! let's get crazy! i'm opening a stall in leene! i thought she ate too! 11:16:45 fungot: Are you still talking with those people not even close to match *your* intelligence? 11:16:46 mroman: it's a machine that looks like you! and leene and the masamune! how can i do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!? 11:17:14 fungot: I don't look like a machine. 11:17:15 mroman: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now... 11:18:28 I think that's enough of ct. 11:18:30 ^style 11:18:31 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 11:18:39 ^style europarl 11:18:40 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 11:18:44 fungot: Let's be serious for once. 11:18:46 fizzie: the bösch report on the economic fabric of coastal areas engaged in fishing. our modern boots fish the waters dry in record time. this review process must be a definitive operation. we must organise it and what would be a pity. 11:20:52 fungot: I, too, am very concerned about the coastal areas. Indeed, our reviews must be very definitive. 11:20:53 fizzie: mr president, where the government and opposition of both spain and the united states 11:21:01 fungot: ...yes? 11:21:03 fizzie: i have a beautifully written note from the responses to the green paper on the reform of the administration play a very valuable suggestion and the commission. 11:21:27 fungot: I fear spain will suffer greatly through its continued membership of the euro. Do you agree? 11:21:30 soundnfury: mr president, i too would like to raise one point, for an increase in the burden of proof and to the accounting officer, and it seems that fresh food and safe food go hand in hand with a public and open way and, as a parliament, are willing to believe them, but i think there is a danger that it would not be an obstacle to enlargement. neither the council nor the commission have supported. we believe that the monetar 11:21:59 It was obviously getting to the point right where it was cut off. 11:22:14 fungot: Is not fresh food associated with lesser variety in food? 11:22:15 soundnfury: mr president, commissioner, as has happened on this occasion. i do not know if the policy is ad-hoc or belated and, in payment appropriations, although a number of other states have also contributed to austria' s act of accession, for we know that these biological and toxin weapons, the implementation of innovations. this is a major development! in the current directive 77/ 187 on the safeguarding of peace and coope 11:22:41 I like the exclamation point! 11:22:59 fungot: I did not know austria had major developments! in biotoxin weapons... 11:23:00 soundnfury: we shall certainly pursue our talks with the conflicting parties, but, because the council is not in fact based on the rule of law in europe, fewer young people are concerned, that is what we shall do everything within its powers. 11:23:23 It's just like a real politician., 11:23:39 heh, rule of law? I didn't think anyone in the europarl knew what that meant! (Except Hannan, obviously) 11:24:00 * soundnfury bored now 11:24:16 !rng dinner sleep 11:24:42 * soundnfury needs to consult a d2 11:25:10 a.k.a. a coin? 11:25:44 Except that a coin has three sides. :-\ 11:26:46 actually, not a coin; rather, bool d2(void){return(rand()>1);} 11:26:50 or moral equivalent thereof 11:28:23 @dice 1d2 11:28:23 1d2 => 1 11:28:30 Though we do have also 11:28:33 ^bool 11:28:34 Yes. 11:28:44 (Sometimes it says 'no' instead.) 11:29:02 oh good, you /do/ have dicebottery 11:29:33 * soundnfury is very sleeeeeeeeepy :S 11:42:21 Except that a coin has three sides. :-\ <-- only 3? I thought it had an infinite number of sides due to the circular nature of it. 11:42:56 data Coin = Heads | Tails | Side 11:43:34 ion, yeah but you can approximate the side as a polygon with infinite number of line segments (thus creating a circle) 11:43:37 Or sure, data Coin = Heads | Tails | (insert an infinite number of positions along a circle here) 11:43:58 well, actually approximate is the wrong word 11:44:08 data Coin = Heads | Tails | Side Double 11:44:17 you need a bigfloat 11:44:46 CReal 11:44:49 When throwing a coin, though, I think usually all the orientations of Side are treated as equal. 11:45:06 I think a tetrahedron may be the 3D object with the smallest number of flat sides? 11:45:09 no? 11:45:18 (where are no non-flat surfaces) 11:46:08 which means anything less than a d4 is physically impossible 11:46:08 ion: But what if you land in a non-computable position. :/ 11:47:11 the data type is CReal, either that data type is incorrectly named, or it includes non-computable values 11:49:40 Assuming, arguendo, that it doesn't include non-computable values, what's wrong with the name? 11:50:33 fizzie, well the set of real numbers in math includes those 11:50:39 Yes, but the name is not Real. 11:50:41 It's CReal. 11:50:42 actually what does the C stand for? 11:50:46 hm 11:50:53 computable? 11:50:57 guess that is fine then 11:51:13 yeah 11:51:19 the correct data type is obviously Heads | Tails | Side Real 11:51:25 Sidereal. 11:51:26 Vorpal: a d4 that has two 1s and two 2s is a d2. 11:51:30 fizzie, hah 11:51:41 quintopia, true, that would work 11:52:28 The documentation of CReal talks of both constructive and computable reals. 11:52:35 Or a d4 that has one 1, one 2 and two undefined sides. 11:53:04 fizzie, the worst case time when using that to get a defined value is infinite though 11:53:04 bottom 11:53:07 this could be a problem 11:55:15 Well, I suppose it depends on if you need e.g. hard real-time guarantees for your dice rolls, in which case using actual dice *might* not be the best possible solution. 11:55:52 d4, the most dangerous die. 11:56:19 (For stepping on, at least.) 11:56:48 Though I guess a d100 might be easier to slip on, for example. 11:57:18 heh 11:58:11 Incidentally, d100 also works as a d2. 11:58:21 hm a tetrahedron should in theory be balanced on any of the points, right? 11:58:48 as well as any of the edges 11:59:05 so that means it is not actually a d4 12:00:00 theoretically 12:00:12 indeed 12:00:16 but it is far more unstable on the points/edges than a coin is on its side 12:00:21 well yes 12:00:23 of course 12:00:48 in practice, with apointy enough d4, if you're not rolling it in play-doh or carpet 12:00:56 its not gonna happen 12:00:57 ever 12:01:04 "Assume a spherical d4..." 12:01:09 XD 12:01:13 ... 12:01:21 * quintopia makes a spherical d4 12:01:23 That's what a physicist would say. :p 12:01:27 hah 12:03:00 I remember some weeks ago I watched as a group of people play a drinking game with dice. The issue however was that they did this on an uneven outdoors wooden table. The dice quite often landed in the small gaps between the planks making up the surface. They quickly agreed upon that the player could choose any of the two sides facing up in that case. And that nobody should try to intentionally roll it t 12:03:00 o land in those gaps. 12:03:04 A spherical massless d4 in a vacuum, on a frictionless plane. Also an ideal spring would be involved somewhere. 12:03:34 (they used classical d6 btw) 12:04:00 (the game was fia med knuff, which I believe does not have an English name.) 12:06:04 ah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch_ärgere_dich_nicht 12:06:20 Also called Ludo. 12:06:37 Well, similar to what is called Ludo. 12:06:42 actually not exactly the same as what I linked 12:06:49 the Swedish game is slightly different 12:07:02 you have tracks going in from the outer track to the middle as well 12:07:15 I'm trying to remember the Finnish game that's quite similar. 12:07:22 instead of places to put the playing pieces that finished 12:07:54 which seems to be how that game works? 12:08:16 yeah those "home row" thingies are not the same 12:09:02 Oh, right, Kimble. It's a licensed copy of the US 'Trouble', which is kind of similar, though not exactly the same. 12:09:24 It has that pop-o-matic die-roller device embedded on the board. 12:09:29 huh? 12:09:33 what is that 12:09:36 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble_%28board_game%29 has a picture. 12:09:43 It's a half-sphere with 2d6 in it. 12:09:50 I see 12:09:51 You press it down, and then it pops up and rolls them. 12:10:11 I suppose it would help if you're, say, playing it on an uneven outdoors wooden table. 12:10:18 I think Fia is played with 1d6 12:11:03 I'm not sure why there's two in that picture, actually. 12:11:19 The other one seems to be blank. 12:11:28 Maybe it helps in getting the other to roll more randomly. 12:11:35 I'm not a pop-o-matic expert. 12:12:11 hm 12:12:15 The Kimble board looks approximately like http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Kimble_1968.jpg 12:12:30 The ones I've seen are not quite so 1968, but the shape's the same. 12:12:56 does it work on a battery or what? 12:13:04 No, it's just mechanic. 12:13:07 ah 12:13:49 fizzie: trouble is only supposed to contain 1d6 12:14:10 quintopia: Yes, but the wiki-article has a blank cube in there too. 12:14:18 (There's a video of the popping.) 12:14:32 The Finnish board picture just has one. 12:14:38 It's got a disc spring kinda thing inside it. 12:14:46 it should only have one 12:14:53 You push the half-sphere down, it buckles the spring, you let it go and it throws the die around 12:15:08 Like the entire "floor" of the thing is one disc spring. 12:15:45 Yes, though it has some sort of a thing that it springs back in one go, you can't really let it go gently. If I recall correctly. It's like a lid popping back to shape or something. 12:16:00 yes 12:16:43 I guess it's like an exaggerated jar lid 12:16:59 (The kind that makes a popping sound when you push it) 12:17:44 snapple lid :P 12:26:44 -!- boily has joined. 12:46:37 where does bmake search for sys.mk? 13:32:51 -!- ogrom has joined. 13:49:39 nortti, try an strace? 13:50:42 nortti, something like this should work: strace bmake whatever params you want 2>&1 | grep -E '^open' | grep sys.mk 13:50:55 you might want grep -F for the last grep 13:51:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:54:11 thanks 13:54:24 it is /share/mk by the way 13:56:51 nortti, strace is like the second program you install on any new *nix install :P 13:56:56 (right after emacs that is) 13:58:41 I don't have emacs and I installed strace 5 minutes ago 13:59:39 lol, did Dinosaur Comics go Zalgo? 14:08:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:15:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:15:56 -!- augur has joined. 14:15:59 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 14:17:42 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:19:24 I accidentaly busybox ash. is this bad? 14:22:06 Depends on what you accidentally to it. 14:22:18 crashed 14:24:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:26:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:53:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:54:11 Hello 14:54:30 -!- augur has joined. 14:54:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:55:14 You always say that. 14:55:31 Because when I don't, oerjan calls me slow 14:55:52 ...because I always say it 14:56:04 -!- augur has joined. 14:56:05 It's a terrible spiral. 15:04:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:26:55 I've just broken by obfuscated haskell code 15:27:56 That's interesting... 15:28:02 And possibly a bug in GHC 15:28:39 But I'm using unsafeCoerce so many times, it may not be 15:28:53 Moving (<*>) from prefix to infix seems to break the program 15:43:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:44:51 hm what is the best way to parse an XML file on android? I would really like to just end up deserialising it into a set of java objects or something simple like that. However I don't have any control over the input file, so that approach would probably have some security issues 15:50:04 http://hpaste.org/71201 15:50:16 Taneb, why 15:50:21 (that isn't relevant to what you are talking about, Vorpal) 15:50:22 FUn 15:50:25 and what does it do 15:50:32 Factorial calculator 15:50:39 ouch 15:52:32 It... may not work for values over 9 15:52:48 It takes about 20 seconds for 9, and I haven't had the patience to test 10 15:53:28 20 seconds doesn't sound so bad 15:53:36 I mean, how much worse could 10 be 15:53:39 than 9 15:53:43 10 times worse? 15:53:49 Using 10 times the space? 15:53:51 Taneb, or how many seconds did 8! take? 15:54:09 I have no idea what your algorithm is 15:54:23 8 is about 1 second 15:54:29 ah... 15:54:32 also did you paste this in #haskell? 15:54:39 9 is about 8 seconds? 15:54:42 Not recently 15:54:58 It takes about 20 seconds for 9, and I haven't had the patience to test 10 9 is about 8 seconds? <-- inconsistent! 15:55:07 It's been a long term project, this is probably gonna be the final version 15:55:38 Taneb, how can 9! take both 20 and 8 seconds? 15:55:47 Vorpal, the first was my perception before timing it, the second was the actual time 15:55:50 ah 15:56:03 anyway, how does it work? 15:56:23 I can't remember the actual algorithm, but it uses combinatory logic 15:56:56 heh 15:58:36 About half of the unsafeCoerces can be replaced by ids 16:00:19 On another note, one of my comments on reddit has mysteriously gained 45 upvotes 16:01:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:01:28 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:08:06 There are probably better ways to obfuscate haskell code. 16:08:20 Indeed 16:13:05 One way to obfuscate a Haskell code may be like that http://sprunge.us/CFFL 16:14:12 Now let's see if you can make improvements 16:18:43 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 16:18:44 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 16:18:44 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 16:18:47 -!- Madoka-Kaname has left. 16:20:39 I'm unfamiliar with the default keyword? 16:20:56 GHC extension I think 16:23:02 Me: 0 knockdowns, 77 punches thrown, 25 punches landed (32%). Opponent: 0 knockdowns, 79 punches thrown, 33 punches landed (42%). This is the end of the second round where I earned 9 points on both rounds and opponent earned 10 points on both rounds. Which advice should I select? 16:24:03 Choose from: (A) Go for the body; wear him down! (B) He's weak! Go for the knockout! (C) Make him come to you more, then strike! (D) Stay back and jab and save your strength. (E) Try to get him to punch himself out! (F) Go all out and finish him now! (G) Do exactly as you have been. 16:25:15 I'd say E 16:25:24 You don't seem very accurate 16:25:45 G is bad, because you look like you're losing? 16:26:08 OK, I will try that one. And yes I also think G is bad here. I will try E. 16:26:40 O no I got knocked out but made it up on time 16:27:03 Now I managed to knock him out, but he also made it up on time 16:27:16 what game 16:27:26 quintopia, this is real life 16:27:31 Top Rank Boxing by UltraSoft 16:27:37 nes game? 16:27:44 No! BBS door game. 16:27:49 oh 16:28:03 a bbs game with no bbs 16:28:06 neat 16:28:08 Well, it worked, now I have 10 points to opponent's 9 points. 16:28:18 quintopia: Why do you think there is no BBS? 16:28:34 zzo38: 1990 called and took all their BBSes back. 16:29:11 There is BBS! But now it is internet (by telnet) rather than telephone numbers. Specifically, X-BIT 16:29:26 I need a bytecode worth compiling to. 16:29:34 Anyone? 16:29:42 which ones aren't worth? 16:29:55 AnotherTest: LLVM is one 16:31:36 zzo38: thanks, I'll look into this 16:33:31 -!- augur has joined. 16:38:59 zzo38: well... 16:39:04 let me grep my logs. 16:41:50 http://codepad.org/zCZaTGxw <- there you go. 16:43:06 and more obfuscated... 16:44:15 http://codepad.org/oRZa6L54 16:44:19 perfectly aligned btw. 16:44:39 that's my totaly overengineered solution to 16:44:47 if a == 3 then 5 else a 16:44:53 *totally 16:45:22 I could actually decorate it a little bit. 16:46:13 I meant to improve this program: http://sprunge.us/CFFL (such as by making it do some more things) 16:47:46 oh. 16:50:58 Nevertheless I'm proud of my solution. 16:51:55 help my connection has gone slow 16:52:41 For example, it took about a minute for speedtest.net to actually pick a server. 16:59:03 zzo38, I just hand de-obfuscated that, assuming minimal extenstions. 16:59:09 I think I missed the point slightly 17:01:31 Taneb: Post it anyways. And then re-obfuscate it if you want to, and/or add the check for more extensions. 17:01:46 I think I see how it works 17:02:02 -!- calamari has joined. 17:02:03 It's quite good! 17:06:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:07:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:11:08 why do plugs which plug into the cigarette lighter connector in cars fit so badly? After all the actual original cigarette lighter fits well into there... 17:17:25 !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/YeWM 17:17:33 ​Score for quintopia_a: 55.5 17:17:37 It's not exactly the best-designedelectric outlet. 17:18:00 fizzie, indeed 17:18:03 fizzie, but why? 17:18:37 I suppose that's what you get with de-facto standards that just "happened". 17:18:49 Do they put USB charging ports in cars yet? 17:18:58 maybe in high end ones? 17:19:06 the car I'm driving most time is from 2001 anyway 17:19:41 Also while the outlet is indeed poorly designed, the plugs are even worse. It is like they were designed to fit different sized outlets or something. 17:19:58 they have much smaller diameter than the actual lighter for a start 17:20:01 and springs on the sides 17:20:06 hm.. 17:20:22 actually, according to wikipedia there are different sizes! 17:20:25 that explains that 17:20:28 It's possible they might. 17:20:31 American/European 17:20:35 right 17:20:49 I suppose they want to cover both without making separate plugs. 17:20:56 yeah probably 17:21:08 !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/EiIc 17:21:11 ​Score for quintopia_a: 57.0 17:21:29 "USB standard 5-volt outlets are offered in tandem with cigar lighter outlets in newer vehicles." (From the same article.) 17:21:29 fizzie, the difference is less than one millimeter though 17:22:05 but I guess then you need springs to cover both, and that leads to a poor fit for any size 17:26:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:27:48 Moreover, my connection is over three times faster running Linux on the same computer. 17:27:52 That... is worrying. 17:40:20 My internet is faster on linux, but the connection has larger range on Windows 17:41:36 what? 17:41:49 True, don't know why 17:49:26 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:51:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 17:52:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:53:10 I've made it slightly artier 17:53:10 http://hpaste.org/71206 17:53:22 (tip your monitor so the left side is up) 17:53:45 (and set it to white-on-black) 17:54:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:54:36 -!- calamari has joined. 17:54:43 -!- boily has joined. 18:14:18 Regarding raneg, that could physically speaking be different transmission power (or other related) settings in the wireless drivers for Linux/Windows. 18:14:25 Raneg, raneg. 18:14:30 Taneb's connection raneg. 18:14:48 And speed? 18:15:08 Especially when the Windows connection was fine up until about a week ago? 18:15:22 Moreover, my connection is over three times faster running Linux on the same computer. <-- how many times did you switch back and forth and check? Maybe it was just a temporary issue when you ran whatever the other OS was 18:16:03 My internet is faster on linux, but the connection has larger range on Windows <-- what do you mean with range? 18:16:12 Vorpal: You know, wireless? 18:16:20 oh 18:16:21 right 18:16:28 At least that's what I assume. 18:16:39 Well I've also noticed regularly having latency that's normally over 100ms and regularly over 300. 18:16:47 fizzie, so he isn't talking about reaching say the US on linux, but only being able to visit websites from Japan while using windows? 18:16:58 *phew* 18:17:03 Vorpal: Well, you never know. But it wouldn't be my first guess. 18:17:06 (because that would have been insane) 18:17:21 I was playing TF2 quite regularly when it started, too. 18:17:33 Vorpal, the US is closer to the UK than Japan... 18:17:35 I've mentioned my old-old dialup from the company who sold also a "Finland-only Internet" connection with a cheaper per-minute price. 18:17:39 It's also closer to Sweden... 18:17:48 Phantom_Hoover, indeed, he said it had better range on windows though 18:17:52 but was faster on linux 18:18:05 Oh, the 'only' was in a confusing place. 18:18:09 oh okay 18:18:14 hm yeah you are right 18:18:15 it was 18:18:49 Phantom_Hoover, anyway /your/ internet issues, are they on the LAN/WLAN side or the WAN side? 18:19:27 I personally use ethernet due to how bad most wifi routers are. 18:19:43 I think to actually cover this entire house I would need two wifi repeaters 18:19:55 I use ethernet because I don't have wifi card 18:20:04 well on my laptop I meant 18:20:13 on my desktop I use ethernet for the same reason as nortti 18:20:22 I am also speaking of laptop' 18:20:28 speaking of which, are wifi repeaters passive devices or do they (and possibly the router) need to be configured in some way? 18:21:22 no one? 18:21:35 if I had working wifi card I wouldn't use 30 meters long ethernet cables 18:22:12 if I had working wifi coverage of this room I would still use ethernet, because ethernet is faster when transferring files between the computers 18:22:14 At least the repeaters I know of need to be configured, at the very least with the specifics of which network they need to repeat. 18:22:29 Also, the wifi in this hotel is very very spotty. 18:22:40 fizzie, right, but does it need any sort of support from the access point it is repeating? 18:23:24 I vaguely recall that perhaps it does not, if it appears as a client to the AP. But I could be completely wrong. Certainly there was something manufacturer-specific going on in there. 18:23:38 Haven't set up more complicated wifi topologies than a single AP ever. 18:24:09 speaking of signal coverage, the GSM signal is extremely bad in parts of the living room. 18:24:24 perfectly fine in the rest of the house 18:24:37 Anyway; there's also a single wired Ethernet hole in this room, so we're just using an ad-hoc wlan between the two laptops (that sit about 30 cm from each other) to share it. Works fine-ish. 18:25:03 heh 18:25:14 Works finnish? 18:25:51 Didn't have any cables to wire these two computers together. Except for one Ethernet cable, but both laptops have just one port, so that'd be kinda counterproductive. 18:26:23 And I guess I could run some sort of custom softmodem thing over the audio-in/out ports. 18:27:41 fizzie, at least there is something in the socket. I have seen a setup where a wall ethernet socket was seemingly connected (the status LEDs on the port of the laptop connected to it lit up) but it could not be used to establish a connection. So far nothing too strange. However, the strange bit was (when using WLAN) the laptop only responded to ping when it was plugged into the ethernet, even though tha 18:27:41 t response was on the wifi IP... 18:27:55 (the laptop was running windows 7 btw) 18:28:26 fizzie, you have dual-ended audio cables!? 18:28:40 why would you carry those around 18:28:40 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 18:28:44 cross-over headset cables 18:28:46 I mean, how often do you need those 18:28:50 I used one once 18:29:03 (to connect line-out on a tape player to line-in on a PC) 18:30:04 Vorpal: Sometimes there's a 3.5mm stereo in-plug in hotel room sound systems, to plug a personal audio player to; and there's a 3.5mm hole in the N900. So I have one cable to do that, just in case. 18:30:18 heh 18:30:36 That'd be unidirectional, though. 18:30:53 olsner, any idea what "wifi repeater" is in Swedish, trying to find what those costs, but unable to find any in any of the webshops I searched 18:31:06 Vorpal: I'd call it wifi-repeater 18:31:12 well, no luck with that 18:31:42 wifi bridge? Hm that would be at a higher level in the protocol stack wouldn't it? 18:31:59 I also have one cable from Nokia's four-pin 3.5mm A/V connector (it's compatible with regular 3.5mm audio, but also has composite video in it) into 3x male RCA, and a 2x female RCA -> 3.5mm stereo adapter, I think that might have a chance of working as well. 18:32:41 hm wifi range extenders listed under "bryggor". What a stupid translation 18:33:18 oh come on, they are as expensive as access points? 18:33:23 how does that make any sense 18:33:32 They'd have much the same hardware, presumably. 18:33:37 because they are access points? 18:33:39 true I guess 18:33:55 Incidentally, the wired Ethernet (and probably the wifi too) here NATs, so the second laptop is now in the enviable position of being behind a double NAT. 18:34:02 then why not just sell them as dual function devices? 18:34:16 APs often do have repeater modes, actually. 18:34:21 hm okay 18:34:39 well I mostly dealt with combined ADSL-modem/switch/AP devices 18:34:42 At least my Linksys WAP-54G had like five operating modes, of which more than one had to do with some sort of a repeater thing. 18:34:50 and those of course lacks such features 18:35:07 We had pure Ethernet coming out of the wall back when we got the AP, so I got a single-function device. 18:36:01 Phantom_Hoover, anyway /your/ internet issues, are they on the LAN/WLAN side or the WAN side? 18:36:36 Well on a solid basis of uninformed conjecture I'd say it's probably on the LAN side. 18:36:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:36:57 Phantom_Hoover, are you using ethernet, wifi, appletalk or token ring? Or possibly something else? 18:37:19 If token ring, check if the token has fallen out accidentally. 18:37:25 heh 18:37:36 Vorpal are you trying to make yourself look clever by naming as many LAN setups as you can. 18:37:39 fizzie, could that actually happen? 18:37:39 I think that's in the BOFH excuse calendar. 18:37:42 there should be a faint buzzing noise in the cable as the tokens swooshes past 18:37:51 Phantom_Hoover, no, I'm just sleep deprived 18:38:39 fizzie, hm I guess token ring would have had some sort of time out to detect if a participating device malfunctioned and didn't pass the token on? 18:38:47 Vorpal: I suppose it depends on how vaguely you are willing to interpret it. I mean, I suspect there could be a failure mode where one of the devices would repeatedly "drop" the token. 18:39:12 Ethernet connected to a WiFi extender connected to a shitty router in the next room connected through ethernet to a modem connecting to a mysterious coax cable coming out of the floor. 18:39:43 Phantom_Hoover, the modem doesn't do NAT? 18:39:49 the way I think it works is that every NIC in the ring needs to actively forward information, so a broken device can kill the whole ring 18:40:06 I'd tell you if I knew what NAT is. 18:40:22 Phantom_Hoover, network address translation 18:40:27 if that helps 18:40:35 Astonishingly, it does not. 18:40:36 though I'm not sure ... I guess serious token rings would have several rings for backup 18:40:36 Phantom_Hoover, the bit that turns a public IP into a non-public one 18:40:51 Phantom_Hoover, like you have 192.168.0.1 internally and something else on the outside 18:40:55 Are you talking about the 192.168.x.x thing? 18:41:03 and multiple computers can share that external address 18:41:09 Yes, you are. 18:41:11 Phantom_Hoover, yes, or 10.x.x.x or another range I forgot 18:41:25 I doubt it, considering it has one ethernet port so it'd be kind of redundant. 18:41:54 olsner, debugging token ring sounds a bit like fault searching a serial Christmas tree light loop thingy 18:42:00 probably easier though 18:42:13 olsner: There's some sort of a protocol that you use to join the ring, I know that much; and one of the stations is the active monitor. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to de-insert a misbehaving node from the ring. (It's not physically a ring topology, after all.) 18:42:51 oh? that is kind of boring 18:43:07 and why would you do a ring topology if it wasn't a physical ring 18:43:20 IIRC the connectors were made so that when you disconnect a node you automatically reconnect the previous and next nodes to the ring 18:43:25 It was presumably easier to do access control like that, with the token thing. 18:43:33 ah 18:44:07 from before the ethernet hippies figured out you could just let collisions happen and recover afterwards 18:44:08 Vorpal, it's obviously going to be easier because messages will still get transmitted up until the broken terminal. 18:44:16 the continually circulating token sounds incredibly energy inefficient btw 18:44:33 With lights in serial there's no current in any of the bulbs. 18:44:39 Phantom_Hoover, true 18:45:43 olsner, and these days we don't let collision happen any more, instead we use full-duplex connections to what is essentially a specialised computer (the switch) 18:45:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:46:33 Good old thinwire-Ethernet (10BASE2) is probably a worse thing to debug than a Token ring network, since a break anywhere will crap the whole segment. 18:46:44 so today the whole collision detection stuff on ethernet is no longer needed. 18:47:03 can gbit ethernet even run on a hub? 18:47:16 it would kind of surprise me if it could 18:47:34 oh, there was actually a gigabit token ring standard 18:47:36 fizzie, was thinwire the one with the spikes? 18:47:37 We used to have thinwire network of ~20 nodes in a computer classroom at school. The cables ran across corridors under some sort of covers. 18:47:44 It often didn't work. 18:48:12 No, it's the one with the T connectors. Thickwire (10BASE5) is the one with the vampire connectors. 18:48:16 ah 18:49:15 My "LAN" from those days also ran thinwire Ethernet using discarded networking equipment from said school, IIRC. 18:49:31 But that one had just two (maybe three?) computers, so isolating faults was kind of easier. 18:49:59 fizzie, did faults happen though? 18:50:10 not very often I presume? 18:50:17 I don't remember. Not often, no. 18:50:22 right 18:50:26 when was that? 18:50:33 Certainly not as often as at school, where people kept trampling over the cables. 18:50:55 I guess in 1997 or so. 18:51:09 Going purely on when I was at said school. 18:51:11 I can't remember ever having a problem with modern cat5e cables btw. Not with the cables themselves that is. 18:51:30 They went twisted-pair when they renovated the computer rooms. 18:51:55 Vorpal: it used to be possible to confuse crossover and normal cables though 18:52:19 olsner, hm I connected normal cables between computers with no issues 18:52:22 our school still has some thinnet networks 18:52:50 olsner, I did that recently to do internet sharing to a desktop for example 18:52:57 It's not until 1000Base-T that I think auto-MDIX became standard. 18:52:59 I guess modern NICs are smarter? 18:53:05 Vorpal: well, that's what's been recently fixed, NICs with media detection that automatically detects what cable you used and what you should've used 18:53:05 fizzie, auto-MDIX? 18:53:11 Vorpal: The thing that lets you use whichever type of cable. 18:53:13 but they also still have 5" floppy disk drives so it isn't a surprise 18:53:28 nortti: ... wow 18:53:51 olsner: oh. and they are now moving from betamax 18:53:59 olsner, the desktop was actually pretty old. Had 2 SCSI drivers in it. Actually an old server. Pentium 3 thingy. And it had 100 mbit networking. 18:54:08 I don't think I've ever even seen non-TP ethernet 18:54:14 but I guess the laptop could have handled the cable detection 18:54:17 Vorpal: It's enough for one end of the link to be new. 18:54:21 it definitely has gbit ethernet 18:54:27 right 18:54:35 (And some 100Base-T cards can of course do it too, it's just not as widespread.) 18:55:07 I don't think I've ever even seen non-TP ethernet <-- I have, though not while in use. But I have seen a vampire spike in real life. 18:55:10 I'm not sure if it's mandatory in gigabit Ethernet or not, but at least it's very common. 18:55:43 I think it was in some sort of historical display of technology in an internal window at university or something. 18:55:48 "hen two auto-MDIX ports are connected together, which is normal for modern products, the algorithm resolution time is typically < 500 ms. However, a ~1.4 second asynchronous timer is used to resolve the extremely rare case (with a probability of less than 1 in 1021) of a loop where each end keeps switching." 18:55:54 Heh. 18:55:58 ("When", not "hen".) 18:56:10 And 10^21. 18:56:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:56:18 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:56:38 would've been somewhat ironic if they made it so that MDIX couldn't reliably negotiate with MDIX 18:56:52 fizzie, and couldn't that 1.4 second timer also end up triggering at the same time? 18:56:56 very unlikely, sure 18:57:00 but it /could/ happen 18:57:45 There's a PRNG involved for the "regular" way, that's where the 10^21 comes from I think. 18:59:13 oh, 10^21, I thought it was 1024 minus 3 for some reason 18:59:14 The ~1.4 second timer resets the PRNG or something. 19:00:20 ah 19:00:28 I suppose it's considered just completely unlikely for both ends to end up with the same random seed every time, the reset is just there in case it happens once. 19:02:08 I have had some autonegotiation issues with modern-ish Ethernet, though. 19:02:21 hmm, 500ms is long enough to be noticable 19:02:21 Ãœnicode? ISO-8859 19:02:26 Some link somewhere only worked with autonegotiation disabled. 19:02:39 olsner: < 500ms. 19:03:23 olsner: The PRNG is clocked at 55ms, and the probability for a matching run of length 2 is around 0.1, so in 90% of cases it's about 100ms. 19:03:38 I mean, about 55ms. 19:03:58 olsner: also we still sometimes use reel-to-reel tape recorders and slide projectors. just to give you idea how moredn our school is :P 19:04:02 (Obviously, with a run of length 0 it's "instant", and for length 1 it'd be that 55ms.) 19:04:19 I've seen an overhead projector used at Aalto too. 19:04:30 55ms is 7MB at gigabit speeds 19:04:59 olsner: Sure, but consider it in the speeds of your grubby fingers plugging that cable in. 19:05:55 also you can't start a transfer the instant you plug it in 19:06:08 fizzie: those where you have to put see through sheet on the glass surface and then it projects the image? 19:06:16 nortti: Right. 19:06:27 when I connect this laptop it takes considerably more than a second before DHCP and all that completed 19:06:28 we use them all the time 19:06:33 they're pretty neat - remove the mirror on top and you have an optical burning device 19:06:39 olsner, so that auto negotiation is not really significant 19:06:41 It's got a Fresnel lens in it. 19:07:30 And the light output can set things on fire, that's true. Or at least make things start smoking. 19:07:49 fizzie, wouldn't that make the image quality suffer somewhat? Unless it is between the lamp and the image 19:08:04 "That light gave me my first cigarette, and it's been downhill from there" 19:08:27 Taneb, what 19:08:47 ... Or at least make things start smoking. 19:09:05 Vorpal: It is. The lamp is in the box, the lens forms the top of the box the slide sits on top of that, and then there's a lens-mirror combination in an arm to direct the image to the wall. 19:09:41 Taneb, yes but what did it have to do with cigarettes? 19:09:53 As in, smoking? 19:09:57 The lamps fail every so often, too. And they have noisy fans. 19:10:02 fizzie, ah 19:10:27 Taneb, yes but in the context it isn't that type of smoking. That joke was too far fetched. 19:10:39 THAT JOKE WAS NOT FAR-FETCHED ENOUGH 19:10:51 Vorpal: har du aldrig sett en OH-projektor? 19:10:57 fizzie, so pretty much the same issues as PC projectors have 19:11:01 olsner, sure I have, what about them 19:11:10 those are the ones we were talking about 19:11:30 oh with "overhead" I imagined he meant something mounted overhead 19:11:32 right, duh 19:11:51 didn't think about what OH meant 19:11:53 oh well 19:12:06 I never seen an OH projector with fans in it though 19:12:17 That's weird. 19:12:28 Pretty much all I've seen have had large fans to stop the lamp from melting. 19:12:29 i've never seen one without fans 19:12:40 well, maybe the fans were just very quiet? 19:12:49 probs 19:12:57 http://ubuntusatanic.org/news/ 19:12:57 They're generally large, so I suppose they can be quiet if the manufacturer cares. 19:13:11 fizzie, also for the lamp thingy, the ones I have seen have a slider on the side that allow you to switch to a different lamp if the primary one dies. 19:13:21 so you can continue the lecture 19:13:31 That sounds so high-end. 19:13:49 also every single room at the university I attended had an OH projector 19:13:59 well, every single lecture room or such 19:14:04 (not the toilets obviously) 19:14:20 Your toilets didn’t have OH projectors? :-( 19:14:25 alas no 19:14:31 I don't think our lecture rooms all have them any more, they've been somewhat replaced by those document-camera dealies. 19:14:34 Many still do, though. 19:14:46 Does Red Dwarf's continuity stay consistent? 19:14:47 Even if it's somewhere in a corner. 19:15:07 e.g. when early episodes have things such as Lister getting married in the future, will it happen in the show? 19:15:21 fizzie, I only seen those in two places. One portable that a specific teacher used, and one in the 600-person lecture auditorium 19:15:22 19:15:30 s/lecture/ 19:15:34 Sgeo: I think it's much more important for them that things are funny than that they make sense 19:15:44 Even if it's somewhere in a corner. <-- well yes 19:15:58 most teachers seem to use portable projectors 19:16:02 and those have loud fans 19:16:38 Vorpal: Ooooh, I remember the *best thing*. Our maths teacher in grades 7-12 (numbered linearly from start of school) had this TI-86 add-on device, it had a translucent LCD screen that you put on top of a regular overhead projector. 19:16:44 Then it showed the calculator screen on it. 19:16:50 It was the fanciest thing in the world. 19:16:50 sweet 19:16:56 oh I heard of those 19:17:02 never seen one 19:17:09 7-12 (numbered linearly from start of school) <-- how else would you number them? 19:17:25 some laptops have/had displays where you could remove the back of them and use them on an OH projector 19:17:37 They're actually 7-9 and then high-school 1-3. 19:17:38 actually, we have 1-9 then three years in the gymnasium, then whatever years at university 19:17:42 Yes. 19:18:07 fizzie, you had the same teacher in primary school and high school? 19:18:10 We have a very similar system, but in general the school systems differ so much, I thought a linear numbering would be easier. 19:19:01 The school did both 7-9 and the high-school 1-3; quite many here do. 19:19:13 The 1-6 and 7-9 parts are generally in different schools. 19:19:20 Ala-aste and yläaste. 19:19:39 our school is 1-9 and 10 19:19:47 fizzie, hm 19:19:50 Not all teachers were involved in both, but they shared some infrastructure. 19:20:17 Also, we had this math-oriented classes-7-9 thing where we did some early high school math courses early, to get a bit of a head start. 19:20:26 fizzie, I think I did 1-6 in one school, then 7-9 in another, then 1-3 of gymnasium at yet another place 19:20:26 So we had the same maths teacher all the way through. 19:20:30 and then university of course 19:21:02 16:20:39: I'm unfamiliar with the default keyword? 19:21:02 16:20:56: GHC extension I think 19:21:03 actually I did 1-2 in one place but it was technically the same school, just across the road from the 3-6 one 19:21:04 That's also quite often the case. And I do think I had to apply for the high school bit separately. They just are in the same building, and some teachers tech in bth. 19:21:22 Gah, I'm drpping lttrs. 19:21:28 default is standard, but ghc has an extension ExtendedDefaultRules or something which makes it more flexible. 19:21:41 fizzie, inded 19:21:48 oerjan, how does it work? 19:22:04 Anyway, this is all beside the point of what a fancy TI-86 add-on device. It required a custom-modified calculator with a bulge where the screen cable connected to. 19:22:21 Or maybe it was a 85. 19:22:30 One of them, anyway. 19:23:24 http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/productDetail/us_viewscreen_panel.html 19:23:27 This thing. 19:23:48 Well, that's for the TI-Nspire. 19:23:55 But it looked rather similar. 19:24:24 heh 19:25:11 Taneb: e.g. default (Integer, Double) makes haskell choose the first of Integer and Double which fits whenever numeric types need to be defaulted. (that's the default default, btw :P). defaulting can happen either in cases like x^2, where there is absolutely nothing to tell what type 2 should be other than an Integral, or when the monomorphism restriction hits like with x = 2 as a declaration at top level. 19:25:39 Oh, cool 19:27:47 Taneb: the standard only allows defaulting to happen when all typeclasses involved are in the haskell report and at least one is numeric. (although i've previously found ghc doesn't include e.g. Random). ghc's extension relaxes this to allow any single type (kind * i think, so cannot be used to choose a Monad) type classes which don't need to be standard ones. 19:28:39 iirc ghci by default runs with the extension and default ((), Integer, Double), which means you get () as the default for e.g. Show with no numeric content 19:29:50 i should check that Monad thing, because i briefly had an idea for your obfuscation which might work if that isn't the case 19:30:14 default ((-> r)? 19:30:26 something like that 19:30:34 (->) r 19:30:38 Whatever 19:31:14 although more likely something like default ((()->())->()->())->(()->())->()->() 19:31:20 *+) 19:32:33 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/interactive-evaluation.html#extended-default-rules 19:32:40 On a different note, is it bad that I think the Env comonad makes more sense than the Reader monad? 19:33:53 * oerjan backs off :P 19:38:08 Come back! 19:48:12 i have never used a comonad for real, i think 19:49:48 oh wait ghc doesn't actually drop the numeric requirement entirely :( it just adds Show, Eq, and Ord. 19:52:01 I just have a vague understanding of Monads as adding context and Comonads as using context 19:52:27 close enough, now go write a tutorial! 19:52:43 Aww man, I suck at writing tutorials 19:53:01 ...as do most people who have written monad tutorials. 19:53:17 @quote tutorial 19:53:18 Lemmih says: inv2004: Haskell isn't like all the other mainstream languages. You really need to read a tutorial. 19:53:24 @quote tutorial 19:53:25 djahandarie says: I think there should be a new internet rule.... "if it exists, there is a monad tutorial using it as an analogy" 19:53:28 True, so I'd fit right in 19:53:35 @quote tutorial 19:53:35 arw says: ...and a basic law of haskell is, 50% of all documentation has to be monad tutorials :) 19:53:39 @quote tutorial 19:53:40 lispy says: monad tutorial : haskell :: conflictor representation : darcs hacking 19:53:58 wtf is a conflictor representation 19:54:01 @quote tutorial 19:54:01 myname says: i prefer monat tutorials like buttiros, delicious if it comes in, but what's left is just poo 19:54:18 @quote tutorial 19:54:18 djahandarie says: I think there should be a new internet rule.... "if it exists, there is a monad tutorial using it as an analogy" 19:56:40 I am addicted to Red Dwarf 19:57:28 Is that a drug? 19:57:52 I believe it, in this case, is a TV Show which Phantom_Hoover mentioned yesterday 19:58:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:59:30 Sgeo, it's OK, it's a British show. 19:59:50 You'll be into the long, painful withdrawal in no time at all. 20:00:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:00:08 Especially if you don't watch anything past the second episode of the 7th series because it's all shit. 20:02:17 yeah, that show's got no kind of atmosphere 20:05:56 -!- kwertii has joined. 20:11:28 -!- sclv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:17:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:17:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:18:43 Phantom_Hoover: It's easy to stave off for a bit. 20:18:54 By watching more British TV. 20:19:03 Unfortunately, this only *delays* the problem. 20:19:12 Sgeo, have you watched Spaced, Spaced is even harder to cope with because there are only 14 episodes and coming down again renders you unable to laugh at lesser comedy. 20:19:48 Phantom_Hoover, so recommend that he doesn't watch it then? 20:20:11 pikhq, dunno what you're watching, but sitcoms are so short you can easily burn through the entire run in a day or two if you're binging. 20:20:21 pikhq, if there is eventually enough British TV it can delay it for the rest of your life? 20:20:26 Vorpal: No. 20:20:28 Vorpal, see above. 20:20:53 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you can move on to other sitcoms. This delays the problem for a few days. 20:21:01 Phantom_Hoover, indeed, I'm not saying it is currently possible, TV as a medium hasn't been around long enough 20:21:09 Alas, you quickly come across the problem that 99% of everything is shit. 20:21:14 but your great-great-grandchildren might be able to do so 20:21:38 Your average sitcom has maybe 9 hours of footage total, more for real long-runners. 20:21:41 hm 20:21:53 okay, great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren then 20:22:37 Also re Spaced you can't not watch Spaced 20:22:50 I'd imagine there's enough British TV you could spend a fairly large portion of your life watching all of it. However, there's not enough British TV *worth watching* for that. 20:23:36 You could get a lot of mileage out of classic Doctor Who, but it's a) often bad and b) often lost forever. 20:23:50 Worse still, a and b show little correlation. 20:24:31 Kinda wish there was just a list of decent classic Doctor Who... 20:24:50 Perhaps it'd be short enough you could watch all of it without being highly obsessed. 20:29:14 Well, the BBC does have that comprehensive episode guide with rough commentary. 20:30:26 (It's here if you want to look: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/ ) 20:31:33 Oh wow they still have the same early 2000s media player and everything, 20:33:56 (Note especially the bottom line and analysis sections in the "In Detail" page.) 20:35:25 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 20:39:43 Phantom_Hoover, I've heard of Red Dwarf before yesterday 20:39:52 Haven't heard of Spaced until you mentioned it earlier 20:40:06 Have you seen Hot Fuzz and/or Shaun of the Dead? 20:40:33 Heard of Shaun of the Dead. I think because of the Basic Instructions strip 20:41:03 Now starting Season 3 of Red Dwarf 20:41:36 I liked Hyperdrive because it features Miranda Hart: http://akas.imdb.com/title/tt0481449/ 20:41:42 Well if you'd seen either I'd say it's that but in sitcom form and also even better, but otherwise it's really hard to describe. 20:42:16 olsner, was it any good factoring out Miranda Hart? 20:42:45 Because TbH I could just watch Miranda, considering it has a higher Hart:everyone else ratio, and also it has that lady from Mitchell and Webb. 20:43:09 well, Miranda is also better 20:43:27 Phantom_Hoover, is Red Dwarf still ongoing, the Facebook page said something about "Series X coming later this year!" 20:44:37 It was cancelled after going to shit, but I think Dave bought the rights and are trying to resurrect it. 20:45:01 They did a 3-part miniseries in 2009 which I haven't seen, although the one clip I have watched was funny 20:48:03 tell me sgeo did you have a humorous misunderstanding at the use of 'dave' there 20:48:07 because i hope so 20:48:51 Of course I thought the character, but I assume an actual... person 20:48:58 *thought the character at first 20:49:06 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 20:49:06 -!- tswett has joined. 20:50:14 that's funny because i was actually talking about the tv channel 20:50:57 ...ah 20:51:10 I did not know there was a TV channel called Dave. 20:52:55 Over here we mostly call it "Top Gear and QI Channel" 20:53:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 20:53:48 QI is nice 20:54:43 Dave certainly thinks so. 20:54:52 What's with the different H? 20:56:43 Are you at series 3? They changed a lot of stuff round for series 3. 20:57:13 They changed everything again for 6, and again during 8 (or so I hear). 20:57:35 Ah 20:57:40 Phantom_Hoover, QI? 20:57:46 what does that stand for 20:57:52 Quite Interesting 20:58:04 ah *googles* 20:58:24 What it stands for is irrelevant; it's a comedy quiz show. 20:58:41 you could've googled using just QI, you know 21:00:55 olsner, that gave me stuff about taoism in all the top ten hits 21:01:18 actually wait. the tenth is for some sort of software thingy 21:01:53 maybe you used swedish derp-google? 21:02:23 hm, nope 21:02:31 says google.com and everything is in English 21:03:06 for me, hits related to the tv show are number 1, 2, 5, 6 plus three video hits 21:03:07 I am logged into gmail, but since I don't usually google taoism or religion I'm not sure why it would customise it like that 21:03:32 based on context you should be able to figure out that it was a tv show, and there are no other tv shows with that name afaik 21:04:08 otoh, maybe google customized the hits for me, since I happen to be logged in on gmail 21:05:13 i have no google account and i got the tv show on norwegian google 21:08:22 says google.com and everything is in English 21:08:34 Google doesn't work that way, and I'm astonished you don't know that. 21:11:14 Man, 'seagull' refers to a lot of different birds. 21:11:40 stormÃ¥se, grÃ¥mÃ¥se, svartbak... 21:12:04 oops, stormÃ¥se = svartbak 21:12:41 a bird is a bird is a bird 21:12:53 wait, actually stormÃ¥se can mean _both_ the others 21:17:22 I'm not even sure what the seagulls common in Edinburgh are. 21:17:33 * oerjan looks at the swedish wikipedia and wonders what the difference between mÃ¥s and trut is... 21:17:42 oerjan: they're both birds 21:18:04 trut is also slang for mouth 21:18:05 The closest I can find on Wikipedia is the herring gull, but ISTR hearing or reading that it's closely related but not the same. 21:18:15 olsner: i said _difference_. they're both mÃ¥[sk]e in norwegian 21:18:41 Oh, they are just herring gulls. 21:18:54 why not move all bird questions to #esoteric-birds? :) 21:19:18 (One of the comedians in the Fringe once joked that Edinburgh seagulls are abnormally big and I've been trying to confirm this ever since.) 21:19:36 olsner, why do you not like bird talk, 21:19:55 olsner, what about fiskmÃ¥s? 21:20:40 mostly it's that I don't know anything about birds :) 21:20:43 hm that is "common gull" 21:20:45 in English 21:20:46 oh well 21:21:23 and common gull is apparently also a name for a type of butterfly. 21:21:23 wow 21:22:15 "Arterna inom denna kategori anlägger adult dräkt efter drygt tre Ã¥r efter det att dom kläcks, dvs pÃ¥ deras fjärde levnadsÃ¥r. Inom denna kategori finns alla trutarna." 21:23:09 oerjan, hm I think that must be a typo 21:23:16 because that makes no sense 21:23:42 is that from the swedish wikipedia? 21:23:49 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A5sar_och_trutar 21:24:50 oerjan, actually it is accurate, första Ã¥ret : 0-1, andra Ã¥ret, 1-2, ..., fjärde Ã¥ret: 3-4 21:25:03 it's the only mention i can find distinguishing them... they're very mixed up in the genus classification :P 21:25:40 oh, apparently adult is an actual ornithological term, and not just a very bad translation from english 21:25:54 oh wait "Generellt kan man säga att de mindre arterna kallas mÃ¥sar och de större trutar" 21:26:05 olsner: i was wondering about that too :P 21:26:08 oerjan, with a few exceptions? 21:26:18 someone give me programming project. I'm bore 21:26:39 nortti, implement a JIT compiler for befunge-98 using LLVM before fizzie gets back working on his again 21:27:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:27:08 nortti, what about that? 21:27:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:27:19 umh. something not involving LLVM would be nice 21:27:36 nortti, implement a JIT compiler for befunge-98 using by generating your own machine code before fizzie gets back working on his again 21:28:03 nortti, does that sound good to you? 21:28:16 that sounds better. what architecture? 21:28:30 nortti, which ones do you have access to? 21:28:41 nortti, 32-bit x86 I presume, anything else? 21:28:44 x86, m68k, 6502 21:28:48 nortti, x86 21:28:53 I don't have access to the other ones 21:29:01 16 bit or 32 bit? 21:29:10 nortti, 32-bit, running under linux 21:29:22 nortti, as a user space program 21:29:24 why not netbsd :P 21:29:26 not a kernel module 21:29:47 nortti, okay, if it runs with minimal modifications on multiple *nix for 32-bit x86 21:29:49 why not as self hosted OS? 21:30:04 I mean, the differences aren't that large, are they? 21:30:19 yes. and netbsd supports linux abi 21:30:46 nortti, because... hm. Because it is more useful to a larger group of people as an user space program 21:31:04 I would assume a tracing JIT would be the way to go 21:31:10 that is what fizzie did at least 21:31:59 brb 21:42:45 back, and good night 21:43:51 ok. currently me thinks that compiling 1 row column at a time would be easier 21:43:57 +or 21:47:00 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:47:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:47:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:48:12 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:58:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:06:37 Phantom_Hoover, is Holly completely gone? 22:09:28 Um, if you mean man-Holly then yes. 22:09:52 I think he comes back in series 8 but see every other time I've mentioned series 8. 22:11:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:21:56 "Holograms don't produce heat and neither do androids" 22:22:12 I know it's roughly the opposite of hard science fiction but that still bothers me 22:22:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:22:41 mksh ftw 22:22:56 only shell better than busybox ash 22:23:40 Did you not like zsh :( 22:23:50 not really 22:24:18 too much pain to configure 22:24:58 Yes but the pain turns to pleasure! 22:26:17 well it seemed kinda like emacs. it does multiple things and is pain to configure to work the way you want it to 22:27:34 heirloom shell is bit limeted but otherwise nice 22:28:06 (I kinda like tab completition) 22:32:09 I know that there are people who love zsh but there are also people who love emacs so yeah 22:32:54 oh and sash is otherwise nice but lacks tab completition 22:36:36 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:39:55 sash -aqp $USER@$HOST"$ " makes trying to unfuck your system so much more pleasant 22:40:07 Phantom_Hoover, accidentally saw a series 8 ending spoiler 22:40:36 Sgeo you should have picked up by now that the show has minimal continuity. 22:44:37 -!- kallisti has joined. 22:44:38 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 22:44:38 -!- kallisti has joined. 22:51:12 Which show? 22:58:43 :t show 22:58:44 forall a. (Show a) => a -> String 23:03:08 Is that the show you mean? 23:11:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:11:29 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:39:26 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 23:41:58 -!- kwertii has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:41:58 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 23:54:31 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:54:54 -!- kwertii has joined. 2012-07-11: 00:00:49 -!- nortti_ has joined. 00:08:53 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:11:07 -!- kwertii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:11:07 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 00:14:54 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:14:54 -!- kwertii2 has quit (Changing host). 00:14:55 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:15:48 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:15:48 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 00:21:42 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:23:02 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:23:03 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 00:34:52 -!- augur has joined. 01:08:28 -!- nortti_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:08:45 -!- nortti_ has joined. 01:15:48 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: nuq). 01:26:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:27:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:29:00 kwertii, you probably want to fix your client and/or connection. 01:29:57 -!- kwertii has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:31:27 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:31:28 -!- kwertii has quit (Changing host). 01:31:28 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:34:02 "Reässuring" with a diaeresis mark, yes/yes? 01:38:04 reälly 01:39:23 How the heck do you pronounce "really" X-D 01:40:58 Gregor: yes 01:41:21 Gregor: Would you spell "subordinate" with one? 01:49:28 Gregor: straïght forward, of coürse 01:50:01 shachaf: There's no diaeresis in subordinate... heck, there aren't even two vowels in a row, so there's not even the possibility of a diaeresis. 01:50:21 I think of a diaeresis on a vowel as meaning something like a glottal stop. 01:50:33 ... well, then you think of it wrong... 01:51:23 True, it's not quite a glottal stop. 01:51:28 But it's something pretty close... 01:51:35 By which you mean "not even slightly". 01:51:42 use diäereses however yoü want, yoü have poetic license 01:51:58 oerjan: Oh you, not using a diaeresis mark on the ONLY diaeresis in that sentence. 01:52:17 How would you differentiate "su-bor-din" with "sub-or-din"? 01:52:25 I guess that's not what a diaeresis is. 01:52:35 Indeed 'tisn't. 01:52:47 If it were a glottal stop, it'd parse as "t" in many accents. 01:52:51 Gregor: actually i'm not sure aboüt the first ä 01:53:09 oerjan: Yeah, that one's a bit... odd. 01:53:29 Di-aeresis? Certainly it's not diägram, is it? 01:53:34 pikhq_: Glottal stops have nothing to do with 't's. 01:54:01 There are some accents that pronounce 't' as glottal stop in some words, but those aren't that common, I think. 01:54:09 Virtually every accent. 01:54:22 You people must mean a different thing than I do by "glottal stop". 01:54:24 Say "fatten" 01:54:37 OK? 01:54:44 No glottal stop there. 01:54:56 I'm referring to IPA Ê” 01:54:57 I don't know where you're from, but if it's in the Americas, then you're lying or don't know what a glottal stop is. 01:55:07 i.e. "glottal stop". 01:55:29 "It is called the glottal stop because the technical term for the gap between the vocal folds, which is closed up in the production of this sound, is the glottis." 01:55:29 Gregor: actually i'm surprised to see diäeresis seems to have the second syllable stressed, i thoüght it was the third 01:55:39 I don't think you're closing your glottis when you say "fatten". 01:56:08 shachaf: You are if you're pronouncing it with a General American accent. 01:57:31 Gregor: I'm thinking of the Hebrew letter "aleph". 01:57:50 possibly "fatten" has two articulation points for the tt? 01:57:53 You also pronounce 't' glottally with many words in UK English, though which ones get done that way are different. 01:58:20 Or the Hangul "ã…‡". 01:58:24 (I think?) 01:58:54 shachaf: "In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the letter either represents a glottal stop ([Ê”]) or indicates a hiatus (the separation of two adjacent vowels into distinct syllables with no intervening consonant)." 01:59:07 So, apparently Hebrew aleph is glottal stop and diaresis. 01:59:10 pikhq_: Right, that's just people slurring it together. 01:59:21 If you asked them to be all formal about it they'd probably pronounce the glottal stop. 01:59:31 The two are different phenomena in English. 01:59:43 OK. 02:01:42 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_consonant 02:05:21 oerjan: It's more that US English has gained a tendency to turn 't' into a glottal stop when certain vowels are between it and 'n'. 02:09:02 well yeah, i just wondered if there were intermediate cases 02:09:29 I have made five .NSF musics, although all of them are covers so far. 02:09:50 (One of them is cover of some music that originally had no harmony, so I added some.) 02:18:37 Use of channels (and order of writing): prelude.mml=AB winter.mml=ABC cv_bsnes.mml=ABCD wizardry.mml=ABDMN cvheven.mml=DGHIJKL 02:21:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:27:09 isn't a glottal stop just like... 02:27:13 a rough pause. 02:27:23 where you close off your vocal tract. 02:28:06 then yeah, we do that with our t's 02:28:09 because we're lazy. 02:28:21 either that or make a "d" sound. 02:35:29 -!- madbr has joined. 02:53:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:01:49 Gregor: Have you written music recently? What software did you use? 03:02:40 kallisti: That is a glottal stop, yes. 03:02:51 kallisti: It's where you stop and close the glottis. 03:06:00 madbr: Are you the guy who told me before if you have made the .NSF musics? 03:07:02 -!- canaima_ has joined. 03:10:45 -!- canaima_ has quit (Client Quit). 03:14:08 yes 03:15:16 I like all of them (they are the ones I like best) except for the one with smoke weed 03:15:37 I have written five .NSF musics so far although these five all of them covers, so far. 03:16:20 One was from a ZZT game, and I have added the harmony instead of having the melody only 03:16:52 Today I have made the Caverns of Zeux heaven music using DGHIJKL channels 03:17:18 (D=2A03 noise channel, GHIJKL=VRC7 channel) 03:19:58 you use mml? 03:20:04 This is first time I have used VRC7 channel. 03:20:07 madbr: Yes. 03:21:04 Do you not use MML? Well, some people like it and others hate it, use whatever you prefer 03:21:16 I use impulse tracker + converters :D 03:21:29 most other tracker dudes have moved to famitracker though 03:21:53 Well, I suppose IT+convert can work too if you want. 03:22:00 My brother uses FamiTracker. 03:22:30 I am in the process of writing a program called ITMCK. 03:25:14 what does that do? :D 03:26:17 It is a program to make a .IT file. 03:26:34 http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git 03:26:46 from mck? 03:27:21 * kallisti has been contemplating the design of a graphical DSP system for Haskell 03:27:43 similar in concept to things like MAX/MSP and pure-data 03:27:44 madbr: It is the program to compile MML to .IT 03:28:14 :O 03:28:59 kallisti: I have been thinking of use of Penrose tensor diagrams to represent morphisms in tensor categories satisfying certain additional laws (certain things can be done in the diagram depending on what features the category has, too) 03:30:21 madbr: Well, Impulse Tracker is DOS only and I don't like programs like Modplug Tracker and so on to write music either, so I want to write the new one which is better. For now looking at source-codes and documentation you might try to understand a few things. Do you like the formatting of the documentation so far? 03:31:25 ther's still schism tracker and chibi tracker 03:31:42 madbr: Yes I know about those ones too; I prefer MML 03:32:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:32:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:32:43 zzo38: does this have anything to do with DSP? 03:33:07 kallisti: Maybe. 03:33:37 this might be a weird question 03:33:38 but 03:33:45 does anyone have a identity from the UK I can borrow? 03:34:04 OVH is giving out free servers with shit specs for people in the UK. 03:34:53 ITMCK even support customize scale (which is something OpenMPT supports but only for its own format), and customize temperament (also something OpenMPT supports for its own format; ITMCK emulate it by making multiple sample headings with varying C5speed) 03:34:55 oh looks like they're free ones in the US too 03:35:06 kallisti: I have used PureData. 03:35:30 zzo38: I found it a neat concept. but anything marginally complex becomes slow and a mass of lines and boxes. 03:35:37 which is why it would be nice to use Haskell instead of "subpatches" 03:35:44 but also have subpatches as well 03:35:55 OK 03:36:00 If that is what you like. 03:37:39 I believe you can have tensor diagrams for Haskell's (->) category including lines crossing 03:38:19 I think one law that must be required to make the tensor diagrams for a category would be that (***) and (.) abide (a term I read in some of Edward Kmett's messages) 03:38:44 Although that isn't enough to allow the lines to cross 03:42:38 I like how sequencers like Reaper organize stuff in tracks 03:42:58 How do you mean? 03:42:58 can still do any graph but they're a lot easier to edit 03:43:13 Reaper works something like this: 03:43:16 you add tracks 03:43:22 each track has a stack of effects 03:43:27 applied serially 03:44:16 you can also do signal sends from one track's output to another track's input 03:44:31 and you can also add folder tracks that contain other tracks 03:44:50 if you put effects on the folder track, they are applied after mixing all the tracks in the folder 03:45:12 plus you can add as many channels as you want to any track 03:45:31 and configure your effects to use this or that channel for processing 03:45:44 between all of that you can do everything 03:46:08 OK 03:48:35 common cases (layering a bunch of synth VSTs then putting on a ton of effects) are easy to do :D 03:52:57 kallisti: Maybe you could represent them as a tensor category with two prime objects 03:59:36 tensor? prime objects?? :o 04:02:54 Do you know about category theory? 04:03:10 (I don't think "prime objects" is the standard term but I don't know if there is any so I use this) 04:05:42 nope 04:06:37 I'm more of a c++ guy tbh, haven't gotten into the haskell cult yet :D 04:07:46 Man, grow some taste. :P 04:08:34 language I've probably done the second most of is ARM assembly :D 04:10:50 a pretty nice architecture 04:19:21 You don't have to program in Haskell to know category theory, or vice versa. 04:23:31 -!- madbr has changed nick to madbr-SVO. 04:55:13 -!- trout has changed nick to const. 05:00:41 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii). 05:13:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:20:38 -!- madbr-SVO has changed nick to madbr. 05:21:26 I'm toying with the idea of a processor with some kind of "trace" mode for fast parallelized execution of high computation loops 05:40:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:41:43 -!- augur has joined. 06:00:20 How would you expect it to work? 06:01:02 take a loop that can be optimized 06:01:04 ex: 06:01:35 for(int i=0; i mix[i] += ((sample[mPos>>16] + (((sample[(mPos>>16)+1] - sample[mPos>>16])*(mPos&0xffff))>>16))*mVol) >> 16; 06:01:47 (that's linear interpolated sample mixing) 06:04:10 after the first pass of compilation, it looks something like this: 06:04:24 i = 0 06:04:24 if i>=nbSamples :done 06:04:24 :loop 06:04:24 t1 = [mix + i*4] 06:04:24 t2 = mPos >> 16 06:04:25 t3 = s16[sample + t2*2] 06:04:25 t4 = t2 + 1 06:04:26 t5 = s16[sample + t4*2] 06:04:26 t6 = t5 - t3 06:04:32 t7 = mPos & 0xffff 06:04:32 t8 = t6 * t7 06:04:32 t9 = t8 >> 16 06:04:32 t10 = t3 + t9 06:04:32 t11 = t10 * mVol 06:04:33 t12 = t11 >> 16 06:04:33 t13 = t1 + t12 06:04:34 [mix + i*4] = t13 06:04:34 t14 = mVol + mRamp 06:04:35 $mVol = t14 06:04:44 t15 = mPos + mFreq 06:04:44 $mPos = t15 06:04:44 t16 = i + 1 06:04:44 $i = t16 06:04:44 if $i>=nbSamples :loop 06:04:45 :done 06:05:27 (using the model where every calculation or variable write is to a new variable) 06:06:20 LLVM does something like that, I think. And I can understand how you can parallelize it when the order is not relevant. 06:07:36 well, essentially you have to figure out when each loop iteration is independent 06:07:53 if that happens you are in business 06:08:22 then you can compile it more or less directly to a series of RISC operations 06:08:56 the idea is that instead of having one execution unit and asign it a different operation on every cycle 06:09:34 have a bunch of execution units and assign each operation to a new different unit 06:10:08 so first operation t1 = [mix + i*4] gets assigned to first unit 06:10:21 t2 = mPos >> 16 gets assigned to second unit 06:10:24 etc 06:11:05 and keep the same unit executing the same op over and over for each successive cycle 06:15:30 Yes I can understand that. 06:17:00 if you can autounroll the increments you can do 2 or 4 loops per cycle 06:17:04 that's the goal 06:25:41 OK 06:27:36 It sounds like you've basically reinvented VLIW 06:28:04 yeah 06:28:24 except VLIW is a bunch of exploding designs that never took off :D 06:28:48 and you think yours will be any different? 06:29:05 :p 06:29:27 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:30:00 trying to find a way to avoid the "intel failed design" effect :D 06:30:16 you mean the itanic disaster? ;) 06:31:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860 06:31:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 06:31:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i960 (actually a moderate success I guess) 06:33:11 And yes Itanic :D 06:34:58 though Itanic didn't really have all that many execution units 06:35:01 2 ALUs? 06:40:07 what's really needed, because compile-time scheduling is impossible in principle to get right, is a way for the compiled binary to have, not lists, but DAGs of instructions 06:40:30 so that the compiler can tell the scheduler /precisely/ what its ordering constraints are 06:41:10 then the chip can use as much parallelism as the DAG will allow (if it has enough units). But it would require a more complex scheduler 06:41:30 though less complex than the ones on modern CISC chips that try to work out for themselves what the constraints are :S 06:42:56 DAG? 06:43:02 directed acyclic graph 06:43:11 hm 06:43:39 you could have a layer based approach 06:43:57 have the compiler figure out all the first layer instructions in a loop 06:44:11 (the ones that can be computed on first cycle) 06:44:18 then do layer 2, 3 etc 06:44:27 but then that doesn't deal with variable latency 06:44:58 the compiler /can't/ figure out the scheduling, precisely because of variable latency 06:46:03 two cases here would be multiply, and memory loads 06:46:03 it has to effectively communicate a set of ordering constraints; the minimal such is the DAG, the maximal such is a list of single instructions to be executed serially (the 'classic' architecture, from the olden days) 06:46:33 multiply is constant but still relatively long and changes from cpu generation to cpu generation 06:46:50 (can go up - see early pentium II) 06:47:32 memory load is effectively unpredictable 06:47:38 indeed 06:51:25 Still, I do math heavy code and I'm slightly disappointed at the throughputs in very recent cpus :D 06:52:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:52:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:56:28 it feels like the designs are geared to database software and other branch/access heavy shit 06:56:32 web 06:56:37 that kind of crap 06:57:14 well, if you're doing anything both math heavy and parallelisable, get some FPGAs 06:57:32 I do sound 06:57:43 DSPs are dead (cpus are faster) 06:58:14 and nobody uses FPGAs, application specific hardware is mostly dead for sound 06:58:21 well it shouldn't be 06:59:17 there are some hardware DSP cards for the pro market 06:59:22 they are essentially dongles 07:00:26 There's a DSP core in my phone, they can't be dead. 07:00:53 As for math-heavy and parallelisable code, doesn't everyone do that kind of stuff on GPUs nowadays? 07:01:06 for doing FFT on phone signals DSPs makes sense 07:01:09 not for sound 07:01:16 GPUs have too high latency 07:01:24 and not enough flexible execution 07:01:36 (no feedback, bastards) 07:01:43 The phone uses the DSP for e.g. hardware-accelerated MP3 decoding. (And some video formats.) 07:01:56 makes sense on old phones 07:02:14 for recent IPhones I'm not sure why they still use the DSP 07:02:21 probably power conservation 07:02:43 It's not exactly old. And I think TI's to-be-released OMAP5 platform still includes a general-purpose DSP core, despite them having added all kinds of special-purpose video/media accelerator things. 07:02:50 but it makes no sense to use the DSP in game code 07:03:45 too platform specific and you rarely have any control over it 07:04:12 so of course the firmware sound mixer does something wrong and you have to reimplement it all in software anyways 07:04:56 Yes, well, that much is of course true. (Related example: the DSP-accelerated JPG encoder used by the phone's camera app has a hardcoded JPG quality level; if you want to change it, it needs to fall back to the CPU implementation.) 07:05:31 good luck using the iphone's mp3 decode for game music 07:06:31 you're never going to have a sample accurate loop or crossfade 07:07:20 and once a phone call plus an alarm clock happen chances are apple's media server gets confused and crashed 07:11:03 There was a guy doing general sound recognition (environmental events; door knocking and fire alarms and phone ringing and things like that; it was for a box they sell to hotels that they can have deaf-proof houses without having to wire up a system with indicator lights to all those things) on FPGAs, he gave a talk at our place. 07:11:57 yeah that's a different market 07:12:25 And our DSP course had a couple of http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/index.shtml 's as platforms, I've always wondered whether many people have actually bought that thing to do music. 07:12:31 and I guess ARM systems on a chip aren't quite monstruously fast/low power enough for that yet 07:12:39 nobody has a chameleon :D 07:12:48 No news since 2006. 07:13:08 exactly 07:13:17 same thing happened to creamware 07:13:50 even hardware synths are losing their shine 07:16:30 3d cards are doing ok but that's in part because CPUs are terrible at bilinear 07:16:52 and gfx doesn't have too much pixel-to-pixel dependency 07:21:49 Those do get used for general-purpose calculations too a lot, though. Our cluster recently acquired 8 nodes with 2x Tesla M2090 cards, and from what I hear with something like MATLAB+GPUmat you can run your giant matrix multiplications very easily very fast on those. (That's of course all about throughput, not about latency.) 07:24:56 yeah 07:25:15 sound uses a lot of recursive filters, that's the catch with that one in particular 07:25:28 sample to sample latency 07:32:34 -!- itidus21 has joined. 07:34:19 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:42:36 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:45:30 -!- monqy has joined. 07:57:45 well i think that when presented with a finite choice of processors, then it is possible to eventually determine which is the best for your type of work 08:00:54 disregard 08:03:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:13:18 -!- itidus20 has joined. 08:17:05 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:21:11 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 08:23:44 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:03:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:04:41 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 09:21:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 09:21:47 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:24:55 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:12:57 "This is true in all countries that I know except for North Korea, Iran and United Kingdom" 10:19:02 i like neal stephenson.. because he is making a realistic sword fighting sim via kickstarter crowdsourcing, but i had only vaguely heard of him before 10:19:51 but on wikipedia he seems really cool 10:30:36 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:30:54 -!- monqy has joined. 10:33:42 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:35:54 that's the same neal stephenson who wrote In The Beginning Was The Command Line, right? 10:56:00 ya 10:56:07 according to wikipedia 11:05:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:23:41 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:23:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:23:56 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 11:35:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 11:36:25 -!- Patashu has quit (Client Quit). 11:48:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:59:07 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 12:05:25 -!- sunshinehappy has joined. 12:05:39 -!- oonbotti has joined. 12:05:50 how about an anarchist programming language: Absolutely no control structures 12:06:08 :P 12:09:17 i have an idea for a programming language 12:09:29 related to that 12:10:31 get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program 12:10:46 and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output 12:11:05 and, optionally prompting you for input 12:12:02 x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation 12:12:10 :P 12:12:13 It sounds somewhat similar to IRP. 12:12:31 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP) 12:12:40 speaking of which 12:14:49 ahh IRP is better 12:15:31 hmm 12:15:46 99 bottles fits the description pretty close though 12:17:11 it's a really strange feeling to say: 12:17:52 i have an idea for a programming language; related to that; get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program; and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output; and, optionally prompting you for input; x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation 12:18:28 and get a reply like "It sounds similar to an existant esolang" 12:18:56 -!- boily has joined. 12:18:56 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 12:19:06 -!- boily has joined. 12:20:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:34:46 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 12:36:39 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:36:44 sunshinehappy: Eniuq doesn't have control structures (if by that you mean flow control) 12:40:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:40:08 -!- yiyus has joined. 12:40:31 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:40:42 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:42:16 -!- ogrom has joined. 12:50:30 -!- ais523_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:52:02 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:58:14 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1801473/japanese-ascii-code 12:58:17 what the fuck...? 12:59:19 ... 13:00:45 I thought I heard pretty much every dumb question related to programming. 13:01:00 but that just tops everything I've ever seen. 13:03:01 -!- sunshinehappy has left ("Leaving"). 13:06:49 I am getting a small problem with my minidistro. I have put "nameserver 8.8.8.8" in /etc/resolv.conf but it still only finds host when I use ip address instead of address 13:07:11 s/of address/url/ 13:08:25 +of 13:08:58 mroman, why, because they confused ASCII with character code? 13:09:35 >ASCII 13:20:57 nortti, I guess dns lookup is broken? 13:24:49 nortti, try strace on nslookup google.com or something? 13:25:12 well I don't have strace or nslookup 13:25:19 host then? 13:25:25 some command line dns resolver 13:25:51 no. unless toybox or sash includes one of those 13:25:53 anyway strace is useful for debugging, if you are trying to keep the distro as small as possible just remove strace when you are done creating the thing 13:26:52 nortti, or just write a simple C program that tries to look up a hostname and run that under gdb 13:27:12 well I don't have gdb. 13:27:17 ...you tink he has gdb? 13:27:19 +h 13:27:20 nortti, whatever debugger you have then? 13:27:29 Having a debugger would make it too easy! 13:27:38 People didn't have debuggers as advanced as gdb back in teh day! 13:27:38 I have no debugger on that distro 13:28:05 also I mostöy still use so called printf debugging 13:28:05 so add one then 13:28:47 anyway strace is likely better here, since you want to see what the libc does 13:29:13 yeah. I am trying to integrate it to build system 13:30:41 nortti, what is the intended use case for this distro? 13:31:25 be as small as possible 13:31:34 nortti, why? Embedded? 13:31:48 just for fun 13:31:53 ah 13:32:26 zack said ganbatte 13:32:39 i am proud of my minimal knowlege of japanese.. 13:32:41 also building userland binaries that don't depend on dynamic libraries. 13:32:54 nortti, statically linked 13:32:55 sure 13:33:01 strace just traces system calls 13:33:05 not library calls 13:33:06 ok 13:33:24 nortti, afaik strace uses ptrace to do it (just like gdb) 13:33:29 so that should work fine 13:34:40 the funny thing to me about acronyms like ASCII and ANSI is the use of the term america to refer to the united states 13:35:04 US is very self-centred 13:35:12 lzma doesn't want to extract strace-4.7.tar.xz 13:35:19 nortti, xz != lzma 13:35:28 xz is like lzma version 2 13:35:33 use the xzdec command 13:35:43 (or xz -d iirc) 13:35:55 although ASCII might be representative of all of north and south america, somehow, i doubt it :D 13:36:08 -!- stanley_ has joined. 13:36:28 itidus21, they all like to call things "national", like "national institute of whatever" 13:36:37 lol 13:36:49 in the rest of the world we usually name those after the country instead 13:36:55 -!- stanley has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 13:37:29 like "SMHI" (Sveriges Meteorologiska och Hydrologiska Institut). Translates to Sweden's Meteorological and Hydrological Institute 13:37:42 Vorpal: we in the UK do something similar; "Royal Whatever" almost always means British 13:37:46 hm true 13:37:52 i quite enjoy seth uh.. -strains- mcfarlane cartoons about usa 13:38:59 with the sun in the sky and a smile on my face, something something salute to the american race 13:39:16 which race is that? 13:39:18 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:39:29 the native inidians? 13:39:50 ahh here it is 13:39:55 "I got a feeling that it's gonna be a wonderful day! The sun in the sky has a smile on his face! And he's shinin' a salute to the American race!" 13:39:59 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:40:37 itidus21, presumably that refers to the native people of the US 13:40:46 i have no idea 13:40:59 its very tongue in cheek show 13:41:02 and doesn't include the natives of Canada and so on 13:44:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cS18c0GVk 13:44:56 its worth it to understand what im saying.. :D 13:45:13 sound is terrible but best version of the video i could find 13:45:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:46:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:46:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:46:23 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:47:18 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 13:48:20 bbiab 13:51:43 @dict urban bbiab 13:51:44 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:51:44 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:51:44 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:51:54 @dict jargon bbiab 13:51:55 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:51:55 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:51:55 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:54:14 @google bbiab 13:54:15 http://www.internetslang.com/BBIAB-meaning-definition.asp 13:54:16 Title: What does BBIAB mean? - BBIAB Definition - Meaning of BBIAB - InternetSlang.com 13:54:28 close but no cigar 13:55:00 @dict 13:55:01 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:55:01 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:55:01 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:55:46 @dict all-dicts bbiab 13:55:47 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:55:47 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:55:47 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:55:56 @all-dicts bbiab 13:55:57 *** "bbiab" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)" 13:55:57 BBIAB 13:55:57 [I'll] Be Back In A Bit (telecommunication, Usenet, IRC) 13:55:57 13:56:58 urban dict says "the most annoying fucking abbreviation to look at. ever" 13:58:44 @all-dicts cuui 13:58:44 No match for "cuui". 14:01:18 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:03:34 rebuilding my distro after figuring out how to produce static strace 14:04:53 -!- stanley_ has quit (Changing host). 14:04:53 -!- stanley_ has joined. 14:05:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:05:04 -!- stanley_ has changed nick to stanley. 14:07:35 mroman, hi 14:07:37 :P 14:07:51 anyway I'm leaving quite soon. 14:08:08 nortti, was static strace hard? 14:08:19 nortti, anyway surely you could just build strace and add it to the distro? 14:08:34 well I had to hand patch some config files 14:08:35 rather than rebuilding the whole thing 14:08:38 nortti, oh? 14:08:48 what sort of config files 14:09:01 debian/rules 14:09:07 for strace or for something else? 14:09:13 for strace 14:09:15 anyway why are you using the debian build system 14:09:21 LFS for the win ;P 14:09:48 well it didn't add -static to CFLAGS otherwise 14:09:56 seriously though, the debian build system is painfully over-complicated, with a large suite of different tools used to generate or edit those files 14:10:09 uh, 14:10:16 nortti, I mean ./configure CFLAGS="-static" or something like that 14:10:31 sash doesn't seem to handle redirects very well 14:10:40 redirects? 14:11:07 nortti, anyway you might want to use ccache if you aren't already. Should help speeding up the compiling 14:11:32 redirecting stdin, out and err 14:11:39 ah... 14:11:45 that is quite a bad shell then 14:11:50 why not use ash? 14:11:55 the busybox ash is quite good 14:12:14 I know. it was my main shell until yesterday 14:12:41 I am using sash until toysh becomes usable 14:12:41 busybox as main shell must be painful 14:12:50 why? 14:13:07 it was very nice shell with tab completition and all 14:13:07 well not the shell as such, but all the other busybox parts 14:13:14 the busybox ps is quite limited for example iirc 14:13:31 compared to the normal ps on linux 14:13:36 not really. currently I use mix between busybox and toybox 14:14:01 nortti, oh come on, compare busybox ps --help and the man page for the usual ps found on linux 14:14:10 what is ccache by the way? 14:14:21 Vorpal: I have done it 14:15:10 nortti, ccache caches object files (you set a size limit, say 1 GB or so, for the disk cache). It can help reduce compile time when you compile the same source a lot 14:15:20 like when you are working on a large project in C or C++ 14:15:44 oh 14:15:47 nortti, it hashes the compiler flags and all resulting source file after the preprocessor 14:15:50 iirc 14:16:12 well anyway, it won't break stuff due to you changing CFLAGS or so 14:16:27 I think you can confuse it by switching gcc version used though 14:17:03 nortti, anyway it does slow down the initial compile slightly (due to the overhead of caching) but after that it helps a lot 14:17:47 nortti, I don't know how much you keep rebuilding the same source, or how long that takes up 14:17:54 s/up/you/ 14:18:00 (how did that typo happen?) 14:19:53 nortti, btw just in case, make sure resolv.conf has a trailing newline. I'm not sure that file needs it, but I have seen crontab and what not break without trailing newlines 14:20:42 also, bbl 14:20:57 (will be back in several hours) 14:21:45 Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 14:22:39 -!- stanley has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:24:44 Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P) 14:25:42 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:26:03 -!- stanley has joined. 14:26:07 -!- stanley has quit (Changing host). 14:26:07 -!- stanley has joined. 14:26:40 @tell Vorpal in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P) 14:26:40 Consider it noted. 14:33:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:33:36 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:34:15 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 14:38:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:40:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:48:55 piuh 14:48:56 ytc 14:54:29 hi all! 14:55:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:01:25 -!- augur has joined. 15:07:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:08:40 Hello! 15:20:32 hii 15:22:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:28:34 hi z 15:35:39 -!- MoALTz has joined. 15:44:25 -!- augur_ has joined. 15:44:30 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:52:21 -!- yiyus has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:07:02 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 16:16:27 -!- yiyus has joined. 16:17:43 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:23:35 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:23:35 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 16:23:35 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:34:02 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:34:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:40:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:53:44 -!- nooga has joined. 16:53:57 looks like i've found new hobby 16:53:59 http://www.unlambda.com/download/cadr/CADR4_schematic.pdf 16:56:12 what is that. I'm too lazy to start up X server 16:56:59 MIT lisp machine schematics 16:57:24 ooh. you are working with one? 16:58:03 noo 16:59:12 you are creating emulator? 17:01:39 i will bake this in a FPGA 17:02:18 is the software available? 17:03:08 i think so, since the guy who wrote emulator posted some screenshots ;D 17:04:03 I'm slowly becoming British 17:04:06 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeou. 17:05:01 what? 17:05:07 -!- kwertii has joined. 17:05:08 -!- kwertii has quit (Changing host). 17:05:08 -!- kwertii has joined. 17:05:11 why? 17:05:24 I'm addicted to Red Dwarf, A Bit of Fry and Laurie, QI, Doctor Who 17:06:12 oh 17:06:45 nortti: why don't you run X all the time? 17:07:07 it slows down my computer too much and uses around 50% of my memory 17:07:37 oh, they've called from the 90's, they want their machine back 17:07:52 this machine is from 2000 17:07:57 nooga, we've had this conversation with him, you can stop. 17:08:02 ok 17:08:21 Although it may help to know that he found the computer in a dumpster. 17:08:26 maybe try raspberry pi 17:08:42 ooh 17:08:57 well I'd have to buy new monitor, mouse, keyboard, hard drive... 17:09:14 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb). 17:09:43 but yeah. I could consisder it if they get decent RISC OS 5 port running on it 17:10:20 today i watched an aussie guy on youtube that got like truckload of HP workstations from a scrapyard 17:10:43 quide decent computers actually 17:10:48 with SATA and stuff 17:10:53 nooga: but yeah. I'm on trouble with 90's and 80's wanting their computers back 17:11:27 I used a computer from 2001 until maybe 2007 17:11:30 build a beowulf cluster from them 17:11:35 It was pain 17:11:37 but my school is in trouble with 70's wanthing their reel to reel tape recorders back :P 17:11:56 Sgeou: only 7 years? 17:13:16 i've never had a computer with gaming class video card 17:13:25 now I'm getting iBook g3 from 2001 for assembly summer 2012 17:13:46 decent CPUs and RAM but no graphics ;< 17:14:20 HoMM3 & TTD 17:14:21 The other laptop here is a G4 iBook from 2003 or thereabouts, and it's already being a bit of a problem, since it has OS X on it, and everyone's stopped supporting PPC. 17:14:33 -!- stanley has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 17:14:36 fizzie: which version? 17:14:40 Firefox 3.x is the last Firefox that runs on OS X/PPC, I believe. 17:14:50 geez 17:14:51 Version of OS X? 10.4. 17:14:56 -!- stanley has joined. 17:14:57 fizzie: have you heard of TenFourFox 17:15:08 Yes, but I forget what the problem there was. 17:15:17 fizzie: I used it when my iBook g4 worked 17:15:19 i've got MacBook Pro, late 2011 17:15:56 I've got Mac Classic, preforma 475 and dead iBook g4 17:16:37 and now I'm getting iBook g3 dual usb with OS X 10.4 17:16:43 OS X is nice but can be infuriating when it comes to some deeper hacking 17:16:55 I had one of these: http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml 17:17:02 (Then I sold it off.) 17:17:21 fizzie: also you can try what I did and build almost complete netbsd system on top of darwin kernel 17:17:37 what for? 17:17:57 well netbsd is better supported 17:18:03 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 17:18:23 It's not my laptop, so I can't. I do have one that's very similar, but I haven't used it in a while, since I have this other laptop from 2011. 17:18:30 but why darwin? 17:18:36 It has some sort of a PPC Linux on it, though. 17:18:47 nooga: because OS X 17:19:09 On the Performa I ran MkLinux, it was quite an experience too. 17:19:10 fizzie: what you mean by very similar? 17:19:22 i don't think there is any point in running darwin if you don't have the rest of the OS 17:19:42 -!- Galactica has joined. 17:19:48 there are some better kernels, i think 17:20:25 nortti: Another G4 iBook that's pretty much the same model, since it was bought not more than a month or two apart, and has slightly different specs. 17:20:56 nooga: well what I had was netbsd running on top of darwin while also having tweaked os x running at the same time 17:21:45 oh 17:22:27 it was a pain to get to work initialy but when I got pkgsrc my life got a much easier 17:22:53 also it fixed some braindeadness of OS X 17:22:56 I have no time to hack 17:23:11 ;< 17:24:02 I think that if you don't want to hack you can install pkgsrc on OS X other ways 17:24:35 i've got homebrew 17:25:39 I originaly hand compiled everything 17:26:43 getting mosaic-ck to work was one of the most satisfying moments 17:27:20 -!- Galactica has left. 17:30:26 thinking about which is there easy way to run motif programs with framebuffer as output device 17:30:58 nortti: You are reminding me of a thing. 17:31:02 I will try to find the thing. 17:31:15 what thing? 17:31:20 I will try to find it. 17:31:29 -!- stanley has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:31:32 Also Flash (or the lack of it) was the problem with TenFourFox. 17:31:49 you could enable it on about:config 17:32:06 or use flashvideoreplaces and qte and such 17:32:48 http://www.saunalambusplaza.net/peliplaza/kolumnit.php "Asensimpa taas Liinuksen", specifically this bit: "-- päätin asentaa sen autotallissa ilman valoja vanhaan Mäkintosh -koneeseen. Tuo kapistus onkin aina ollut onnettomana kohteena silloin kun kokeilunhaluni pääsee valloilleen, ja nytkin siinä oli pohjalla MacOS ja NetWare vitonen, jotka käynnistyvät yhtäaikaa." 17:32:54 That thing. 17:33:43 (Sorry about the language, for our few non-Finnish readers.) 17:33:56 They can go to #esoteric-en 17:33:59 hyvaa paivaa 17:34:11 fizzie: :P 17:34:33 fizzie: I could imagine myself in that situation 17:35:19 nooga: eikö sulla oo ääkkösiä sun näppiksessä? 17:35:48 They have lost the "Gormic the Insuranced" RPG parody article I remember the old Mikrotietokonepelit thing having, when they combined that and the "Saunalambus Plaza" thing. 17:36:01 Which is a shame. 17:36:31 It had a title something like "Viimeinkin naksahti", and it's about how he finally flips out after playing pen-and-paper RPGs for such a long time, and starts murdering people for reals. 17:37:10 fizzie: the one on the top of the page is bit wtf 17:37:22 nortti: Yeah, it's new. Clearly the new things are a bit stupid. 17:37:28 nortti: huh? :E 17:37:34 I think the same thing goes for the other subpages. 17:38:05 nooga: It's supposed to be "hyvää päivää", and that sounds very different than "hyvaa paivaa". 17:38:32 nooga: it means: "don't you have Ã¥,ä and ö in your keyboard" 17:38:48 i don't have ä when using terminal 17:38:57 Is that a dumb terminal from the 60s? 17:39:26 well, it's Terminal.app and maybe it's dumb 17:39:35 normally i'd hold 'a' key 17:39:40 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:01 If I recall correctly, Terminal.app had problems with the "bright black" color. 17:40:14 The "it's just black" kind of problems. 17:40:18 it did? 17:40:26 I may misremember. 17:40:32 I never noticed that. 17:40:55 http://macosx.com/forums/unix-x11/21100-terminal-ansi-color-dark-grey.html agrees- 17:41:17 -!- calamari has joined. 17:42:13 i like how i can make Terminal.app full screen 17:42:21 I remember seeing a binary patch kind of thing somewhere to make it work. 17:42:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:43:01 i keep tabs, it looks almost like plain old text mode and i can just scroll to my desktop using 3 fingers 17:45:25 I used urxvt and X11.app, though it wasn't terribly pleasant experience either. 17:45:41 I used xterm and X11.app 17:45:53 I liked it 17:46:26 try Cathode 17:46:45 Well, it worked. But I vaguely recall having some keyboard difficulties. There was some confusion when it came to the OS X keymap and the X11 one. Anyway, moot point now. 17:47:30 Oh, so retro. 17:47:55 hipsters everywhere :F 17:48:10 The Apple ][ screensaver in xscreensaver does some monitor emulation things too, and IIRC you can use it as a regular terminal emulator with the right command flags. 17:48:16 Or maybe it was some other of the hacks. But still. 17:48:44 "Apple2 – simulates an Apple II computer, showing a user entering a simple BASIC program and running it. When run from the command-line, it is a fully functional terminal emulator (as is Phosphor.)" yes it was like that. 17:48:53 It's probably not OpenGL-accelerated though. 17:50:19 yeah 17:50:24 its libphosphor 17:56:12 -!- stanley has joined. 18:04:38 I feel need to design a language 18:07:10 go on. 18:07:19 Hopefully it's not a brainfuck derivative. 18:08:16 i hate them 18:08:34 rather something minimal and elegant 18:10:18 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:11:08 -!- stanley has left ("Leaving"). 18:12:15 Hey, are there any Game of Life programs capable of seeding an infinite random grid? 18:12:31 I think Life32's grid is infinite, but can it randomly seed it? 18:13:21 Sounds somewhat difficult. 18:15:58 -!- Sgeou has changed nick to Sgeo. 18:16:20 Even if you're only interested in a single cell, to know what happens to it in generation k you'd have to consider every place that can be reached from it at the speed of light in k ticks. 18:18:15 try limiting the speed 18:18:35 of information propagation in the world 18:18:52 it gives funny effects like something that looks like doppler effect 18:18:55 for gliders 18:19:34 fizzie, didn't say it would be efficient 18:20:06 nooga, hmm? 18:23:17 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii). 18:30:47 -!- ogrom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:31:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:31:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:50:47 * tswett ponders a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets. 18:51:28 lisp? 18:51:34 Seems simple enough. Say that (...) means the first thing within it applied to all of the rest of the things within it. I'm not sure what () would mean. 18:51:44 Then [...] means all of the things within it, composed. [] is the identity function. 18:51:51 hm. 18:52:48 Lessee. (...) follows the rule that ((X)Y), where X and Y are strings of expressions, is equal to (XY). 18:53:16 It follows that (()Y) should be equal to (Y). Thus, () should also be the identity function. 18:55:23 Now, we'll want to be able to express the S and K combinators somehow. 18:56:18 We might want to say that {abc...}x = ((ax)(bx)(cx)...). Then {} is KI, which doesn't seem that useful. 18:57:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:58:28 Then, of course, {ab} is Sab. 18:58:31 Hello! 18:58:38 Hi, Taneb. 18:58:46 Quick context? 18:59:03 I'm pondering a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets. 18:59:49 Souns cool 18:59:59 *t 19:00:03 s/t/d/ 19:00:05 It'd be more fun if it was a language where programs consist solely of sets of UNmatched brackets. 19:00:21 Tal vez. 19:00:30 " Sounds coot" 19:02:06 ("Tal vez" is Hebrew for "fuck off".) 19:07:46 Does anyone know if Netflix and Spotify have linux clients? 19:08:21 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 19:08:49 `welcome sirdancealot 19:08:59 sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:08:59 ohai 19:09:07 :D 19:09:35 `welcome sirdancealot 19:09:39 sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:09:50 We want you to feel as welcome as possible. 19:09:55 `welcome tswett 19:09:57 halp, theyre testing their bot on me 19:09:58 tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:10:11 (how's tswett pronounced? T-Sweat?" 19:10:15 Taneb: thank you! <3 19:10:21 And yes, that's exactly how you pronounce it. 19:10:24 :) 19:11:11 My name is also the name of a famous moirallegiance. 19:11:22 If "they" were testing the bot, they'd use some of those weirdly capitulated or wide versions. 19:11:31 Are you on Sgeo's update list? 19:11:39 I think so. 19:11:52 I didn't think of you as a Homestuck fan 19:12:17 I converted tswett 19:12:20 :) 19:12:22 I'm also the guy that invented chromatography in the year 1900. 19:12:30 My first name is Mikhail. 19:12:34 nice to meet you 19:12:45 And my name is Marie Curie. 19:12:53 nice to meet you too 19:12:59 But I died of beeing to radioactive. 19:13:12 I'm just Taneb, or Ngevd online. 19:13:24 Nathan irl, if you happen to meet me 19:13:25 *too 19:13:42 Taneb: do you live in West Michigan or Chicago? 19:13:50 No 19:13:58 I live in the CAPITAL OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING, Hexham 19:14:10 sirdancealot, do you live in Hexham or Finland? 19:14:12 In... 19:14:14 * tswett looks up. 19:14:15 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:14:20 Northumberland? 19:14:22 Yeah 19:14:31 Me and elliott live there, but we've never met eachother? 19:14:50 1 in 6000 people here frequent this channel 19:15:07 That's more than any place where more than 1 person frequents the channel 19:15:37 So, you live near Manchester. 19:15:42 No? 19:15:45 Nowhere near 19:15:49 Like, 100 miles away 19:16:14 150, according to google maps 19:16:16 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 19:16:33 It's probably closer to edinburgh than to manchester. 19:16:50 By more than 50 miles 19:16:58 It's quite close to Newcastle? 19:17:17 You know, I've never looked at the UK and the US on a map with the same scale. 19:17:34 Have you found a map that does that? 19:17:53 Wait, all world maps have to do that. 19:17:57 I thought you meant superimposed. 19:18:25 The UK's... bigger than I though 19:18:26 t 19:18:26 So the UK is about as big as... Newfoundland and Labrador? 19:18:36 I've never heard of that. 19:18:41 Well, yes I have. 19:18:45 oh i see. 19:18:52 Hexham is right next to new castle. 19:18:53 The UK is farther north than I thought. 19:19:11 Yeah, I'm further north than the vast majority of the people in Canada 19:19:24 Conclusion: the US is annoyingly large. 19:19:39 Taneb: how north are you? 19:19:42 Hexham north 19:19:51 55 degrees, I think 19:20:11 I thought I knew Hexham by name. 19:20:11 54.9, according to Wikipedia 19:20:13 oh. I'm 65 degrees north 19:20:24 And I'm... 43 degrees north. 19:20:25 Yeah, but you're in Finland 19:20:29 THE LAND OF THE FINNS 19:20:35 The weather here still sucks. 19:20:48 Average summer high: 28 C. Blegh. 19:20:53 28 whole Cs? 19:20:57 I'd be so lucky. 19:21:00 28 entire C! 19:21:08 It's... 17 C here today 19:21:16 uk area: 94,060 sq mi, arizona area: 113,990 sq mi 19:21:28 28 C, isn't that... perfect? 19:21:39 Not too hot, not too cold. 19:21:53 I'd say 24? 19:22:02 that is far too hot. around 17 C is good 19:22:16 36 C is hot. 19:22:19 It's 17 and really wet here 19:22:23 30 is hot 19:22:32 30 is hot too. 19:22:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:22:40 24 is pretty hot 19:22:43 Nah. 19:22:46 24 is sunbathing temperature 19:22:46 24 is almost cold again. 19:22:50 No way. 19:22:54 12 is almost cold again 19:22:55 26,27 is perfect. 19:22:58 -30 is cold 19:23:02 The average summer high in Edinburgh is colder than that in Helsinki. 19:23:04 WAY TOO HOT 19:23:06 everything under 20 C is cold. 19:23:20 Phantom_Hoover, british temperature doesn't vary much 19:23:29 Indeed. 19:23:34 I wish it were 30 here 19:23:48 Coldest I've seen, -12? Warmest, 29? 19:24:18 coldest I have seen was about -38 and warmest about 40 19:24:51 36 right now, which is cooler than it has been 19:24:59 Dear god where are you 19:25:09 tucson, arizona 19:25:22 phoenix and yuma are hotter than us 19:25:24 Serves you right for being so far damn south 19:25:28 Arizona is barely fit for human habitation though. 19:25:28 lol 19:25:32 -20 at night. 19:25:39 not bad 19:25:39 So I didn't really see it :) 19:26:39 I've heard it's been a not very warm July this year in (at least southern) Finland. 19:26:56 Same here in swiss. 19:27:02 It's fucking raining all the time. 19:27:06 14.81 C at the moment according to outside.hut.fi, which I always check. 19:27:10 heh so I implemented a locking mechanism (to enforce single instance).. and then I realized it does not work because this program launches a gui thread and so my lock dies 19:27:33 raining, hail, storms 19:27:45 You've got exciting rain. 19:27:58 We've just got sporadic miserable drizzle, followed by flooding 19:28:38 And then bright sunshine 19:28:43 It's not exciting rain. 19:28:47 It sometimes gets all the way up to 21 19:28:49 It's very heavy rain. 19:29:01 It's raining cats and dogs! 19:29:19 Lie close to the roof and listen to it :) 19:30:01 here the rain is also pretty boring except when it rains sideways 19:30:22 It sometimes rains upwards here 19:30:36 I'd like to see that 19:32:19 Are you walking in handstand position on hexham abbey? 19:32:51 me? 19:33:21 nah. 19:33:23 him. 19:34:11 Of course 19:34:17 It's the best way to get around 19:36:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 19:39:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:39:54 neat. without extra binaries like strace my clean build of userland of my distro take 1 minute and 44 seconds on my machine 19:40:05 -my 19:42:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:50:32 * oerjan thinks today 19:50:41 's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P 19:50:55 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:51:16 * oerjan thinks today's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P 19:51:35 well for a mezzacotta comic 19:52:58 "It's an incomprehensible labyrinth of nonsense, but it's pretty good. 19:52:59 " 19:54:15 Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 19:55:49 `addquote < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 19:55:51 850) < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 19:56:20 ... wut? 19:56:26 just so that your quote is searchable . 20:01:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Ãœnicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:05:38 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:07:54 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:09:53 -!- calamari has joined. 20:31:46 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:39:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:42:35 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:43:28 I've came to realise that creating a pair of Turing-complete machines and a correspondence such that a program in one machine halts iff the corresponding program in the other machine doesn't, would solve the halting problem 20:43:51 how? 20:44:27 Either the program in the first machine or the corresponding machine in the second machine halts in finite time 20:44:42 -!- calamari has joined. 20:44:48 Hang on 20:44:56 Why didn't I listen to my past self 20:45:26 Wait 20:45:58 Executing both simultaneously and waiting for one to halt, then stopping both, is guaranteed to halt, at which point you can inspect which halted 20:47:54 sounds like a proof that there is no such correspondence 20:48:09 Yes 20:48:35 Considering that there are more than two Turing-complete computation modelly things 20:48:58 For instance, untyped lambda calculus and Wang's bathroom tiles 20:49:17 And the original Turing Machine 20:51:05 You mean, M1 halts, if P halts, and doesn't if P doesn't halt 20:51:22 and M2 halts, if P doesn't halt, and doesn't halt if P halts? 20:52:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:52:34 -!- KlonMac7 has joined. 20:52:44 hello 20:52:48 Hello 20:52:54 `welcome KlonMac7 20:52:57 KlonMac7: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:53:10 mroman, precisely 20:53:55 At least sounds like it busts the halting problem. 20:54:34 Hence, as the Halting problem has been repeatedly proven to be unsolvable, there is no such alternating correspondence between two Turing-machines 20:55:33 KlonMac7: hello, i noticed your language has no flow control yet... 20:56:21 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 20:56:52 Is there an actual concrete program for which it is impossible to solve the halting problem? 20:57:08 mroman: an interpreter of a TC language >:) 20:57:35 That doesn't quite count. 20:57:38 If by program, you mean program/input pair, I don't think so 20:57:52 mroman: Why doesn't it count? 20:57:53 But goodnight! 20:57:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:58:07 There are certainly plenty of programs which we have no idea whether they'll halt or not. 20:58:32 shachaf: Because the interpreter can be reduced to the problem of the halting problem of the program it is executing. 20:58:42 so the interpreter is just a layer we can ignore. 20:58:54 mroman: note that for a given program and input, there always exists _some_ program that can tell whether it halts or not. (print "Halts" and print "Doesn't halt") 20:58:57 if a bf program terminates, so does it's interpreter. 20:59:02 *one of 20:59:25 oerjan: Classicalist! 20:59:28 Classicist? 20:59:30 Whatever. 20:59:48 oerjan: That's what I figured. 21:00:25 The question is, does a program exists that does it in finite time? 21:00:29 -s 21:00:54 mroman: You should probably read what oerjan said again. 21:00:58 mroman: um one of those does so in _constant_ time. 21:01:46 Which just makes the halting problem less significant for me. 21:02:29 mroman: Yes, I'm pretty sure you should read what oerjan said again. :-) 21:02:39 to clarify, the _programs_ are 'print "Halts"' and 'print "Doesn't halt"' 21:03:08 and one of them always gives the right answer (says the classicist) 21:03:12 that's just more confusing actually. 21:03:21 oh. 21:03:31 You're sugesting a program that guesses? 21:03:34 +g 21:03:38 no fair. 21:03:42 -!- KlonMac7 has quit (Quit: IRCDisconnect! - IRCMod by TheEndermen). 21:03:53 No. 21:03:55 mroman: no, i'm suggesting two programs. for any given input, one of them will be correct. 21:04:10 Unless you know which one, that's pretty much useless 21:04:17 and not what I meant to ask for actually. 21:04:47 mroman: the point i'm really trying to point out here is that unsolvability doesn't make _sense_ for a single program/input case. 21:04:53 *make here 21:05:20 Well. 21:05:41 If you can solve the halting problem with a program written by a human for a given program written by a human 21:06:13 the halting problem says that there is no way to construct a program that tells correctly for _every_ halting question instance. 21:06:22 (or written by a program written by a human) 21:06:26 *the halting theorem 21:06:50 mroman: now you are getting into AI theory, because that's needed to define those terms... 21:07:02 doesn't that mean that you can solve it for every program a human can write 21:07:16 and humans can write every program that can exist. 21:07:25 mroman: um a human can write a program that they don't know whether halts or not. 21:07:30 Humans can't write every program that exists. 21:07:42 And it's easy to write a program that no one knows whether it'll halt. 21:07:52 (And that people care about whether it'll halt, also.) 21:07:59 So 21:08:03 That's what I asked for. 21:08:06 Such a program. 21:08:44 also 21:08:55 no one knows doesn't quite mean that it can't be solved at all. 21:09:10 for (i = 0; ; i++) { if (containsNon421Cycle(collatz(i))) { halt(); } } 21:09:30 That's a classical example program, yes. 21:10:06 but afaik it's just not proven *yet* that it always ends up in the same cycle. 21:10:43 mroman: so? it is by no means unlikely that many of the unsolved mathematical problems are unsolvable 21:10:45 OK. Lots of things aren't proven *yet*. 21:11:11 perhaps collatz can be solved, but then almost certainly some other problem cannot 21:13:24 > head [n | n <- [1, 3..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]] 21:13:28 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 21:13:32 shocking 21:13:33 -!- nortti_ has joined. 21:13:44 > head [n | n <- [2, 4..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]] 21:13:45 6 21:15:39 mroman: also disallowing things embedding interpreters is disingenious because embedding an interpreter for something TC is the main way most proofs of unsolvability are done. 21:19:03 for example, i could write a program that searches for solutions to the post correspondence theorem and that would be an example of a program whose halting problem is undecidable - but the reason we _know_ that is because the turing machine halting problem can be encoded into it. 21:19:11 but if a Program in a TC language terminates, so does the interpreter. 21:19:22 as well as the interpreter interpreting the interpreter interpreting the program 21:19:25 which is essentially a form of interpretation. 21:19:51 mroman: yes, and so? 21:20:47 That means that an interpreter is a bad example program as an answer to my question. 21:21:37 mroman: yes, but as i say most _known_ example program are known precisely because they are interpreters in disguise ... sometimes deeply disguised. 21:21:43 *programs 21:22:29 there might be counterexamples which i haven't heard about. 21:23:48 or there might not be. 21:28:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 21:36:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:48:37 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 21:54:29 I liked the season 1-2 intro better 22:15:35 So do I, but it works a lot better with those seasons than later ones. 22:21:29 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:22:38 soundnfury: what language are you using to implement your lisp on spectrum? 22:34:58 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 22:40:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuNs1v_jtfs 23:02:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit). 23:06:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:06:44 Phantom_Hoover, I meant the music 23:07:04 The same is true of that. 23:10:35 argh the fan in my window a/c just got loud 23:11:09 wonder how much of a pain in the ass it will be to figure out where it is and fix it 23:22:13 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:34:25 -!- Veronica has joined. 23:35:21 hola 23:35:31 `welcome Veronica 23:35:34 Veronica: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 23:35:42 THank 23:35:56 `WELCOME oerjan 23:36:00 OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 23:36:08 ¿how are you? 23:36:10 shachaf: THANKS 23:36:25 Welcome Shachaf 23:36:34 `thanks 23:36:37 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thanks: not found 23:36:40 :) 23:36:49 oerjan: YOU'RE WELCOME 23:36:54 (WAIT, DID I JUST SAY THAT?) 23:36:57 Gracias 23:36:57 OH NOES 23:37:04 HAblas español 23:37:25 Nope 23:37:34 holaaaaaaaaa 23:37:39 `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ OERJAN 23:37:40 alguien habla español 23:37:42 ​ＯＥＲＪＡＮ：　ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ　ＴＯ　ＴＨＥ　ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ　ＨＵＢ　ＦＯＲ　ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ　ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ　ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ　ＤＥＳＩＧＮ　ＡＮＤ　ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴï¼ã€€ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ã€€ï¼­ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼¥ã€€ï¼©ï¼®ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼­ï¼¡ï¼´ï¼©ï¼¯ï¼®ï¼Œã€€ï¼£ï¼¨ï¼¥ï¼£ï¼«ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼´ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼²ã€€ï¼·ï¼©ï¼«ï¼©ï¼šã€€ï¼¨ï¼´ï¼´ï¼°ï¼šï¼ï¼ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼¯ï¼¬ï¼¡ï¼®ï¼§ï¼³ 23:38:03 ＯＥＲＪＡＮ：　ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ　ＴＯ　ＴＨＥ　ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ　ＨＵＢ　ＦＯＲ　ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ　ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ　ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ　ＤＥＳＩＧＮ　ＡＮＤ　ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴï¼ã€€ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ã€€ï¼­ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼¥ã€€ï¼©ï¼®ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼­ï¼¡ï¼´ï¼©ï¼¯ï¼®ï¼Œã€€ï¼£ï¼¨ï¼¥ï¼£ï¼«ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼´ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼²ã€€ï¼·ï¼©ï¼«ï¼©ï¼šã€€ï¼¨ï¼´ï¼´ï¼°ï¼šï¼ï¼ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼¯ï¼¬ï¼¡ 23:38:21 holaaaaaaaaaa 23:38:22 bye 23:38:47 this unicode is getting out of hand 23:39:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:39:58 oerjan: ami guilt yof ru iningt hischa nnel? 23:40:13 -!- Veronica has left. 23:41:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:41:33 shachaf: kahdeksankymmeltäyhdeksän? 23:42:20 olsner: More like "kahdeksankymmentäyhdeksän". 23:42:30 lern2finnish 23:42:38 shachaf: ok 23:42:49 olsner: And then teach me. :-( 23:43:48 airo on meidän 2012-07-12: 00:19:11 That's disturbing, I had something in common with Rimmer. 00:19:50 When I was a kid, once played a game and wrote down all the rolls of the dice 00:19:53 iirc 00:27:21 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:37:40 -!- kmc has joined. 01:02:34 smeghead 01:06:52 get the smeg out of the channel with your smegging rude language 01:13:00 ^bf +[>+<+++++++]>-.>++[>+<+++++]>-.>+>+[+++[++>]<<]>..>>+[+>+[<]>->]<. 01:13:01 Hello 01:19:49 The plural of "irssi" is "irssit", right? 01:26:54 SOUNDS REASONABLE 01:39:05 tswett: sir, i believe we've wandered accidentally into a rogue simulant hunting zone 01:39:49 Are you a simulant? 01:40:25 i don't know 01:40:46 @google simulant 01:40:48 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulant 01:41:39 i'm not a simulant, although i can simulate one if you want 01:51:32 -!- azaq23 has joined. 01:51:35 kmc: I found out that I completely misunderstood CTR mode, and that the thing it actually is is kind of weird. 01:51:44 oh yeah? 01:51:46 tswett, simulant is a Red Dwarf reference 01:52:22 Weird in that it doesn't every use the cipher to decrypt -- it just uses it as a sort of pseudo-random function. 01:52:33 yeah 01:52:42 it's a way of creating a stream cipher from a block cipher, in a sense 01:52:58 Well, so is e.g. CBC. 01:53:06 But it actually uses the block cipher in both directions. 01:53:37 I had previously thought it was something like encrypt(xor(block, iv + counter), key) 01:53:47 But people pointed out that that's broken. 01:55:19 because the data might increment alongside the counter? 01:55:43 i googled it as a random quote though 01:55:46 Well, because if you can encrypt a chosen plaintext with a particular ID, you can compare it to another ciphertext to see if they match. 01:57:30 i am not actually a qualified red dwarf fan 01:58:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:03:16 Just encountered an advantage that Lisp-style macros have over Tcl-style... thingy 02:04:30 shachaf: I've decided that when people complain about "ATM machine" and such, I will complain about "all OK"~ 02:04:52 kmc: OK isn't an acronym. 02:05:00 Or an initialism, if you're the sort of person who complains about that. 02:05:04 that's just, like, your opinion, man 02:05:35 * shachaf has been defeated. 02:06:08 So why do people put a lot of work into making block ciphers and then use them as stream ciphers? 02:08:52 perhaps because they want to use stream ciphers, but the things designed as stream ciphers tend to be weak 02:10:02 one may also ask, why is this a popular platform? http://www.theunwired.net/media/news/opera_mini_5_android_teaser_hand.jpg .. why do developers work on several 32" monitors with maya and 3dsmax etc to produce 3d content for such a small device 02:10:31 itidus21, never change 02:10:44 and.. maybe someone agrees with me.. and hence: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console 02:10:55 Backers 02:10:55 $3,586,881 02:11:02 * kmc knows even less about stream ciphers than he does about block ciphers 02:11:07 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:11:21 kmc: Don't stream ciphers tend to be the thing you actually want? 02:11:24 Hence all these modes. 02:11:52 noone wants to hear the nonsensical ravings of a loudmouth malcontent 02:12:01 that's what i mean 02:12:45 when ouya raises $10,000,000 they would know i was right if they listen >:-D 02:13:07 It seems really roundabout to me to put a lot of work into making a block cipher, ignore half of it, and use it to generate a keystream. 02:13:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:13:36 i don't think you actually ignore half of the work 02:13:44 Well, yes. 02:13:48 I mean half of the cipher. 02:14:09 The argument seems to be "AES happens to have all the properties we want, and people have put a lot of work into understanding it, so we might as well use that". 02:14:12 Which I guess is reasonable. 02:14:54 so what if you use something like a block cipher but lacking a "decrypt" operation 02:15:00 i.e. a cryptographic hash function 02:15:52 Right. 02:15:55 * itidus21 realises i don't even know how i got from ATM/OK -> android 02:15:57 ciphertext = xor(plaintext, hash(key + counter)) 02:16:01 is that secure? 02:16:18 ^s/i don't/he doesn't/ s/i got/he got/ 02:16:31 It would seem to me to be, given an appropriate behavior of hash(). 02:16:45 key + iv + counter, I guess. 02:17:00 the iv is a per-session random constant? 02:17:02 secret? 02:17:07 Not secret. 02:17:11 This is assuming you use the key more than once. 02:17:14 ah right 02:17:23 you can also start the counter at a random point, equivalently 02:17:42 I suppose. 02:18:09 Some people suggested that the compression function used in SHA1 is actually a good deal slower than AES. 02:18:48 oh yes.. the parallels between the fact that they "put a lot of work into" hdtv, and gpus, and the fact that gamers ultimately "ignore half of it, and" gravitate towards low end handhelds 02:19:17 itidus21: You've bored right through to the heart of the matter. 02:19:20 You've figured me out. 02:19:25 * shachaf is part of the conspiracy. 02:19:32 you were talking about gaming all along! 02:20:34 ok im satisfied 02:21:56 * itidus21 recounts events 02:22:34 "people have put a lot of work into understanding it, so we might as well use that" so it's the gambler's fallacy that since we have invested this much, we have to stick with it 02:23:06 it hurts so much 02:23:14 ok so thats not gamblers fallacy 02:23:23 no it is a fallacy of gamblers though 02:23:27 i was going to give you the benefit of the doubt 02:23:49 Escalation of commitment i mean 02:24:11 i think there is a "sunk costs anti-fallacy" where some people will cry "sunk costs fallacy!" at any attempt to utilize existing resources 02:24:43 obviously if you abandon any project in which costs have been sunk, you will get nothing done 02:24:55 the question is whether the future payoff from the project exceeds the future costs 02:25:38 in the case of using AES as a crypto primitive, the future payoff (highly secure systems) is judged to be worth the future costs (integrating this well-understood, widely implemented thing) 02:26:13 There's no real cost, I suppose, it's just weird. 02:29:12 kmc: So when people say "AES-256 is theoretically broken by a related-key attack", does that also apply to CTR mode? 02:37:22 beats me :x 02:48:33 cool lisp is 02:48:44 Why why why would a Tcl'er joke about Lisp like _that_ 02:48:53 I mean, in that regard, Tcl and Lisp are rather close 02:49:08 (Well, except for the expr thing for math) 02:55:08 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO PARENTHESES 02:55:21 also i think it's backwards but 02:55:26 people on the internet say dumb shit about lisp 02:55:28 film at 11 02:55:56 confusing with forth you are 02:56:16 was yoda a forth program 02:56:20 mer 02:57:18 no forth wasn't invented yet 02:57:22 hth 02:57:37 parallel evolution 03:10:37 From #haskell: data PBT a = Leaf | Branch (PBT (a,a)) deriving (Eq,Ord,Show,Read); let x :: PBT a; x = Branch x 03:10:41 That recursion really bugs me. 03:11:23 nice 03:16:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:16:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:31:29 -!- calamari has joined. 03:32:14 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:32:39 -!- azaq23 has joined. 03:56:58 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.). 04:01:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:01:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:01:55 -!- TodPunk has joined. 04:19:21 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:49:40 olsner: ei muuten todellakaan ole. me voitimme sen reilusti ja neliö. 04:50:35 I love that expression. 04:51:02 yeah i think i'll use it from now on 04:58:39 some fucking asshole is doing his laundry on my turn again 04:59:44 if i lived here and was sure it's not my gf's roommate, i'd totally like still not do anything about it. 05:04:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:05:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:06:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:19:18 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:45:27 -!- kallisti has joined. 05:45:28 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 05:45:28 -!- kallisti has joined. 06:03:44 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:07:38 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:22:44 that's the spirit. mathematician/computer programmers are not the alphamales of the laundry machines. 06:37:12 Can elephants juggle more than seven chainsaws? 06:40:07 "juggling elephants" About 62,700 results 06:40:48 "juggling elephants" chainsaws About 709 results 06:40:57 including such gems as: 06:41:09 So, rather than playing this admirable slice of soaring gospel rock against a backdrop of chainsaw-juggling elephants and heavily mauled, 06:41:26 to prove do not exist; abominable snowmen, flying pigs, chainsaw juggling elephants, teapots orbiting celestial bodies, to name but a few. 06:41:57 Maybe they'd bring on juggling elephants or chainsaw-wielding tightrope walkers, because surely such events are the only reason football 06:42:23 Try googling the entire question 06:42:51 :O 06:46:07 how long is my life going to be 06:46:56 ? 06:47:36 that in addition to all i have suffered, and all i am due to suffer, that i must suffer such things as the tcl war 06:48:47 The Tcl Wars of 1994, such a senseless waste of human life. 06:48:51 perhaps these people should give up science and instead join sports, politics, or religion 06:49:25 <-- more than a little hypocritical 07:28:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:32:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:34:57 the tcl war is partially fascism 07:37:13 `ウェルカム itidus21 07:37:22 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ウェルカム: not found 07:37:26 i can't see the text >.< 07:37:30 pff. 07:37:40 mroman: 「よã†ã“ã〠07:37:54 「ウェルカムã€ã¯å¤‰ã€‚ 07:38:14 "we need everyone to stop using a thing which looks set to became popular on it's own merits, and instead use an unpopular thing favorable to people like richard stallman" 07:39:27 pikhq: ãªã‚‹ã»ã© 07:42:49 sorry i am playing catch up on rms 07:43:02 it's evidently 18 year old news 07:43:18 oops 8? 07:43:34 no 18 phew 07:43:46 forgot about the years 2001 - 2010 07:44:23 nothing happened in these years anyway. 07:44:29 true 07:45:02 Didn't that "never forget" thing happen? 07:45:15 What non-Smalltalk language communities have people who like image-based stuff? 07:45:22 There's at least two such things for Tcl 07:45:31 fizzie: oh you mean the war on iraq? 07:45:35 yeah that happened :P 07:45:39 What's image-based stuff? 07:45:55 As in, single file that contains the entire environment 07:46:01 Oh, that sort of image. 07:46:05 ala non-GNU Smalltalk 07:46:27 Well, Forthers do that sort of stuff sometimes, don't they? 07:46:50 At least Gforth does image files, gforth.fi by default. 07:48:59 i notice audio is very popular 07:49:00 And, uh... R? 07:49:21 i guess if i had actually used an instrument ever i might find audio more appealing 07:49:28 Also I vaguely recall some Scheme doing something similar, but I don't have a clue which one it was. 07:50:13 i think that cool people prefer audio over video 07:50:23 but i can't quite explain why 07:50:24 Cool people, and blind people. 07:50:31 (Presumably.) 07:50:36 hmm actually 07:50:49 i suppose it's because a human body, with no other tools 07:50:56 can produce sound and music 07:51:41 but, in order to create visual things, you need objects to arrange... video displays, cameras, pens, pencils, canvases, paper, paint, etc 07:53:13 "never forget" thing? 07:53:14 also, that an instrument becomes an extension of the human body in that sense.. doesn't need fuel.. as the way video needs electricity usually.. pens need ink 07:53:19 First black president? 07:53:25 mroman: the oil thing 07:53:30 Oh. 07:53:33 :P 07:53:34 The seven-eleven. 07:53:36 Or whatever it was. 07:53:39 Americans invading Iraq... 07:53:40 AGAIN! 07:54:00 After they supported the dictator there for so a damn long time. 07:54:08 americans deconstructing and reconstructing iraq 07:54:16 Whenever I put a date on something I stick in the freezer, I'm tempted to write "never forget!" after the date. I've done it a couple of times, too. 07:55:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRn0SQsUKuw 07:56:01 im too paranoid to believe the official version of events 07:56:14 ^- That's pretty much the picture an average critical european has of america ;) 07:56:20 Doesn't MIT Scheme have some sort of an image file? 07:56:42 "This distribution comes with four different image files, each of which contains different mixes of programs." Yes, something like that. 07:57:17 "A world image, also called a band, is a file that contains a complete Scheme system, perhaps additionally including user application code. Scheme provides a method for saving and restoring world images." 07:57:22 Fancy name. 07:57:42 'disk-save' puts the band back together. 07:57:58 i don't know why images become so wonderful 07:58:18 it's just vram data being blasted along a vga cable 07:58:31 This is a different sort of image, though. 07:58:34 The non-visual kind. 07:58:39 :o 07:59:20 I see http://english.eastday.com/e/zx/images/01459347.jpg 07:59:35 (that's me understanding non-visual images) 08:02:38 It's more like just stealing the word to denote something else. Like there's disk images, those aren't especially visual either. 08:03:20 conversations with me rarely go anywhere 08:07:13 A PIECE of wood which starred in 60s comic caper The Plank amazed experts when it broke the £1,000 barrier at auction. 08:15:03 This printer smells of popcorn. 08:16:14 i wonder if anyone has ever loaded up the red section of a color ink cartridge with their own blood 08:17:08 and frankly i don't want to know 08:18:59 It might not work terribly well. Though it does sound like a modern way to be all gothy, I suppose. 08:19:29 mroman: And an American view on America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI 08:20:29 Probably: "You wanna help the poor? Are you a socialist? Ary you a socialist? Aryoua SOZIALOSSTHSTHSHS?" 08:20:56 (^- american tv interviewer) 08:21:31 i love how they list sushi 08:32:36 -!- nooga has joined. 08:37:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 08:37:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:45:00 https://www.google.com/search?q=%2210.4000%22+hp+laserjet+event+log+code 08:47:19 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:50:03 That's a lot of printers. 08:50:32 I vaguely recall there are queries that do something quite similar for networked cameras. 08:50:39 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:50:44 Hello 08:50:51 I can get on IRC at school now, apparently? 08:51:09 http://www.exploit-db.com/google-dorks/ 08:51:22 Blocked for hacking? 08:52:57 ion: You could take all the Google results of your printer thing, get the black cartridge level from the 'device status' page, and then plot a histogram showing the overall distribution of black cartridge levels on HP LaserJet P2055dn printers around the world. I'm sure that's interesting to someone. 08:53:22 E.g. the printer at 70.108.240.40 only has 1% (approx. 27 pages) remaining, someone should do something about that. 08:54:15 Hey, cpressey's alive 08:54:20 fizzie: Hah 08:54:48 fizzie: Since that printing operation will change the value, one should do that again. And again. 08:56:57 I was thinking of just, you know, publishing the plot on the web, not printing it out to everyone. :p 09:00:29 Oh, okay. :-( 09:02:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: lesson). 09:07:52 nortti: I'm afraid I was asleep when you asked your question last night. The answer is Z80 asm. 09:09:35 Time for daily trivia! The SGI FFT library defines single- and double-precision complex number types (as struct { T re; T im; } with T = float or T = double). The former type is called 'complex', but the latter type has the best possible name: it's called 'zomplex'. (It follows the LAPACK naming scheme with S, D, C and Z mapping to single, double, single complex and double complex types, ... 09:09:41 ... respectively.) 09:09:46 in other news, http://jttlov.no-ip.org/music/gark/Guil_bis.ogg - William Tell on garkleins, by the power of multitrack recording. Unconscionably high-pitched: you have been warned. 09:10:19 fizzie: cool. Or, to be more precise, zool. 09:10:32 (zomplex! It still makes me smile.) 09:10:35 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:11:28 zomplex f(zomplex z, zomplex w) { /* giggle */ } 09:11:41 zomg zombie complex numbers! "√-brains" 09:12:37 soundnfury: Heh, nice. 09:13:03 and here's some daily trivia for you: the inverted interrobang ⸘ is also known as the "gnaborretni" 09:14:10 áµ·uÉqoɹɹÇʇuá´‰ 09:15:04 hmm, for me that starts and ends with replacement characters 09:15:18 so I just see inverted nterroban 09:15:27 Ask for your money back. 09:15:34 Works here. But my terminal can't show the asterism, â‚. 09:15:46 Looks like a mini therefore 09:15:58 * soundnfury likes the compose key 09:16:12 It's like a therefore except with stars in place of plain dots. 09:16:36 ¢ømpÅßê 09:16:54 I see the asterism, too. 09:16:54 especially neat is ##->♯ and #b->â™­ 09:17:06 soundnfury: Cool, i didn’t know that. 09:17:07 áµ·uÉqoɹɹÇʇuá´‰ looks like "interrobany" to me 09:17:21 soundnfury: inverted as in upsidedown? 09:17:26 monqy: when you type áµ·uÉqoɹɹÇʇuá´‰ all I see is hunter2 09:17:33 i don't have unicode 09:17:36 itidus21: as in turned 09:17:38 monqy: You may want to ask for your money back, too. 09:17:44 like the spaniards do with ? and ! 09:17:49 ¿Que? 09:17:54 ohh 09:17:54 U+1D77 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED G 09:17:55 wow 09:18:04 so you can do that with interrobangs :o 09:18:12 it's a g but they goofed it and chopped off the top 09:18:21 small turned g I mean 09:18:32 ion: sadly there doesn't appear to be a compose for the natural sign ☹ 09:18:50 Can you turn the ⸮ (irony mark) around? 09:18:53 ¿No es bueno? 09:19:01 I find funny how Unicode has a white smiling face and a black smiling face, but just a white frowning face. 09:19:14 aha, a table: http://www.hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html 09:19:33 ion: that's because black people aren't allowed to be unhappy (or something) 09:19:53 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:20:05 Also: http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ximkeys 09:20:05 -!- nortti has joined. 09:20:24 Å¿weet! It has long Å¿! 09:20:29 GTK (unless you do something to the input method) has its own hardcoded list of compose sequences that's not as complete as the default X list, nor can you customize it with a ~/.Xcompose. :/ 09:20:50 compoÅ¿e 09:21:04 fizzie: that sucks. 09:21:17 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GtkComposeTable -- the stupef. 09:21:50 "The Gtk Compose Table was derived from the X compose tables of XFree86 version 4.0 with further modification intended to provide a Gnome standard for all locales. It is likely that in future it will follow more closely the xorg version. Please keep track of GNOME bug 633534 for complete documentation." 09:21:55 Maybe it's better nowadays. 09:21:58 Last I looked was some years back., 09:22:17 But I don't think you can customize it yet. 09:23:34 There doesn't seem to be an INVERTED REVERSED QUESTION MARK, so you can't do [insert missing character here]Spanish irony⸮ in Unicode either. 09:23:59 clearly you need to complain to the Consortium! 09:24:37 #f->â™® 09:24:45 now how is one supposed to guess that? 09:26:05 also I hate how they went for #q=quarter note instead of #q=quaver (eighth note, #e, they think) 09:28:43 You can change it 09:29:03 Oh. that was mentioned a while ago 09:29:26 Oh, and I was thinking of the plain old XCompose file 09:33:13 /usr/share/X11/locale//Compose 09:33:26 seems to be the system's master list 09:35:06 haha, Compose C C C P ☭ 09:35:12 that's hilarious! 09:35:21 what does it do? 09:39:15 does it produce sicle and hammer? 09:39:23 yes 09:40:37 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:41:12 awesome 10:02:48 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:05:20 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 10:11:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:11:14 Hello 10:11:44 Hackage is down :( 10:12:23 hackage? 10:12:32 http://www.isup.me/hackage.haskell.org 10:12:44 what is it? 10:13:06 It's a collection of haskell packages on a website, used by Cabal 10:13:10 oh 10:13:38 are you using mail server to irc? 10:14:05 I... don't think so? 10:14:17 I might be 10:14:21 13:11 -!- Taneb [~Taneb@mail.qehs.net] has joined #esoteric 10:14:26 It sounds like the kind of thing my school would do 10:15:00 well actually I have my shell on mail/web server 10:15:10 I'm using a network my school's set up for sixth form students 10:15:17 (16-18) 10:15:28 oh 10:16:24 soundnfury: how do you do management/garbage cllection in your lisp? 10:17:44 nortti: the plan is mark-and-sweep 10:18:11 but I haven't got very far with implementation yet 10:18:59 so far I've written the compiler (which runs on a 'host' Linux system and compiles program text to a bundle of conses) 10:19:26 I'm currently working on a C/Linux runtime so I can get the logic sorted out 10:19:32 then I'll reimplement it into Z80 10:22:26 It could also be a NAT kind of thing, with the single public IP named for the mail server. 10:22:43 Could be 10:28:37 http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/12/in-the-uk-you-will-go-to-jail-not-just-for-encryption-but-for-astronomical-noise-too/ 10:29:31 Isn't that causing a disturbance and keeping the neighbours awake 10:29:38 "That racket is astronomical!" 10:32:32 bbl 10:32:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:42:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:48:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:49:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:49:38 oh 10:49:51 well honestly 10:50:31 it's best to just drop the pretense that laws are grounded in logic,morals, ethics, or philosophies.. 10:50:46 and accept that they emerge as artifacts of social conflict 10:52:50 where did you live, again 11:05:51 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:06:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:11:56 me? aus 11:12:06 as in, non-european aus 11:12:20 ah. ok 11:12:29 heh 11:17:19 -!- ogrom has joined. 11:30:34 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:38:01 -!- coppro has joined. 11:45:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:46:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:54:40 Today's fucked up idea: 11:54:48 A language based on blink and marque tags. 11:55:04 yay. I got js enabled browser to compile 11:55:08 Programs can be disguised as crappy webpages. 11:55:11 but it is text only 11:57:27 Buy one free todayGET READY 11:58:28 -!- boily has joined. 12:00:01 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:01:31 Hello Taneb 12:01:36 Hey 12:01:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:01:42 *Hello 12:02:22 Two instruction language that'd be. 12:02:34 Set is one of the few interesting foldables that aren't functors 12:12:56 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: begone). 12:14:01 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 12:14:04 -!- Madoka-Kaname has left. 12:24:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:28:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: time for foood). 12:31:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:41:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:42:41 Hello 12:47:20 -!- neutrino2000 has joined. 12:53:33 mroman: you could make be S and be K 12:54:15 and have string application be concatenation 12:56:46 Buy onefree todayGET READY would b-reduce to BuytodayfreetodayGET 13:04:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: changing connection, brb in an hour or so). 13:10:32 what is the point i am apt to wonder, of changing a variable from one state to another 13:12:13 i must admit finding some consolation to this question when i randomly stumbled upon martin buber in wikipedia with Ich-Du and Ich-Es 13:12:42 -!- ogrom has joined. 13:15:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:17:16 soundnfury: I would consider it to be SKS 13:17:21 only counting start tags. 13:22:40 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 13:41:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:42:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:46:22 I suppose, because the arities of S and K are defined. 13:46:35 so you don't need the end-tags to parenthesise arguments 13:52:49 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 13:56:11 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:02:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:04:34 -!- stanley has joined. 14:07:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 14:09:10 -!- boily has joined. 14:14:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:28:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 14:47:20 -!- ogrom has joined. 14:55:31 soundnfury: Stuff between tags is comments. 14:55:38 I'm a comment 14:55:44 so you can disguise it as a legit website. 14:57:00 The kind of “legit†web site with tags? ^^´ 14:58:13 Gregor: Yes. 14:59:06 Buy one free websites. 15:01:00 and other non standard tags. 15:01:01 like 15:01:04 spacer 15:01:06 image 15:01:10 and bgsound of course 15:04:05 15:07:29 it could be worse 15:07:32 it could be 15:08:13 THIS IS MY WEB PAGE IT IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION I LEARNED EVERYTHING I KNOW FROM W3SCHOOLS 15:08:47 15:08:57 It's one of those animated road sign ones. 15:09:20 -!- calamari has joined. 15:09:36 too. 15:09:38 Oh yes 15:09:45 Actually, for a typography nut and kerning obsessive, I'm surprisingly relaxed about Comic Sans 15:09:49 I was looking for an animated "under construction" gif but google image search found none .__. 15:09:55 it's Helvetica I hate 15:09:58 I want the one with the lemmings 15:10:13 Also 15:11:40 although Real Men use monospace. And then kern it anyway https://github.com/ec429/monokern 15:12:16 Why is there a bell.wav file in there 15:12:17 soundnfury: The web page for that site... is unreadable. 15:12:18 Do I even want to know 15:12:32 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:12:33 http://mroman.ch/legit.html 15:12:35 ^- Like that. 15:13:17 Gregor: d'you mean github, or the linked jttlov.no-ip.org? 15:13:24 if the former, not my fault 15:13:28 soundnfury: The linked one. 15:13:33 soundnfury: The colors, man. The COLORS. 15:13:49 Hello 15:13:53 Why dark blue on black? WHYYY? 15:14:05 Lumpio-: because I haven't yet learned how to make X trigger a _proper_ terminal bell, so I'm using aplay :shameface: 15:14:21 hm. 15:14:26 D: 15:14:26 Gregor: If you mean the *colours*, it's light blue, not dark blue, text, ffs 15:14:29 It's YOU 15:14:52 soundnfury: That is not light blue. It is, at best, lukewarm blue. It is bad. 15:15:18 Gregor: I choose to not care 15:15:23 *shrugs* 15:15:28 *shrugs also* 15:17:01 I need a rotating gif. 15:20:30 a... much better. 15:49:58 Lumpio-: http://www.squidoo.com/under-construction-gif 15:51:41 oh dear @comments 15:52:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:53:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:53:51 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 15:58:17 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:05:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:14:33 i'm confused by leg/peg 17:15:05 why? 17:15:08 i don't know when semantic actions are performed when rules use quantifiers 17:15:09 like 17:15:38 x = y ('|' y)* 17:16:54 how am I supposed to build binary syntax tree from that 17:22:10 huh? 17:29:41 Maybe you should just rewrite it to use recursion instead. 17:30:07 (I don't know anything about peglegs.) 17:30:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:32:30 fizzie: I could... I just wanted to try the leg way 17:36:38 are there any esolangs where only symbols (not keywords) are used (similar to APL) 17:39:04 ... Brainfuck. 17:39:54 (And dozens of others) 17:41:32 Gregor: Sorry, should have been more specific. I meant a large set of symbols 17:42:12 that would include unicode symbols such as ∊, ∘, × or ↓ 17:43:51 so I think I should have said "are there any esolangs where mainly non-ASCII symbols (not keywords) are used (similar to APL)" 17:46:17 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:46:18 Hello 17:48:56 AnotherTest: SADOL 17:49:20 umm 17:49:23 no, not really 17:50:19 nooga: well it uses quite a lot of symbols but I think they are all ASCII(?) 17:50:27 yup 17:50:36 i didn't read the whole question 17:51:59 now 17:52:12 i need to fight with undocumented peg leg 17:54:02 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 18:01:53 AnotherTest: I don't think there's any point writing such an esolang, because APL's already esoteric ;) 18:03:34 soundnfury: Perhaps that's true indeed ;) 18:03:56 tswett, did anything come of your brackets idea? 18:04:31 soundfury: well I don't think it was intention 18:05:44 I think APL is one of those languages where opinion differs on whether it fits in the "esoteric" category, since it was made and used for real purposes 18:06:02 It has been made esoteric by context? 18:06:28 A programming language written in Linear B would be pretty esoteric nowadays, regardless of its origin 18:06:37 oh, this is scary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)#Extensions 18:06:48 OOP, .NET, *ActiveX*, XML-array conversion primitives, all in APL :S 18:11:26 -!- calamari has joined. 18:11:33 -!- calamari has left. 18:20:19 what 18:20:21 ast.c:47:31: error: C does not support default arguments 18:20:25 -- clang 18:22:23 Well, isn't that just true? 18:24:40 Taneb: nope, not really. 18:25:01 fizzie: as far as I know C does support them (well normally) 18:25:12 AnotherTest: C++ does; C certainly doesn't. 18:25:32 Yeah, C doesn't support default arguments. 18:25:35 If by "default arguments" you mean the usual int foo(int x = 0) {...} kind of things. 18:25:35 Which is good because they're the devil. 18:25:37 I have no idea where you'd get the notion that it does. 18:25:49 Gregor: By compiling all your C code with a C++ compiler? :p 18:25:58 *vomit* 18:26:04 Really? Well probably I'm always using C++ 18:26:06 The C++ FAQ advocates that. :p 18:26:19 The C++ FAQ advocates a lot of bad ideas. 18:26:28 For instance: using C++. 18:26:38 Gregor: I like C++. 18:26:45 Gregor: The C++ FAQ advocates that? 18:26:52 AnotherTest: Well there's no accounting for taste *shrugs* 18:27:24 Gregor: I have some good reasons (well I think they are good). But I can see why people dislike the language too. 18:27:24 "BTW there is another way to handle this whole thing: compile all your code (even your C-style code) using a C++ compiler. That pretty much eliminates the need to mix C and C++, plus it will cause you to be more careful (and possibly —hopefully!— discover some bugs) in your C-style code. The down-side is that you'll need to update your C-style code in certain ways, basically because the ... 18:27:30 ... C++ compiler is more careful/picky than your C compiler. The point is that the effort required to clean up your C-style code may be less than the effort required to mix C and C++, and as a bonus you get cleaned up C-style code." (C++ FAQ) 18:27:52 lol 18:28:04 See, it'll even make things cleaner. 18:28:23 I have a bit of C tomfoolery I've been using for years, buffer.h. 18:28:27 It /does not compile/ with a C++ compiler. 18:28:32 I use it in virtually every project I write. 18:28:36 You should clean it up so that it does. 18:28:38 I am wholly satisfied with this situation. 18:28:46 You might find bugs. 18:28:51 You can't *just* compile C code with C++ 18:28:57 compilers 18:29:00 *duh* 18:30:41 tswett, :( 18:30:49 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_of_C_and_C%2B%2B seems like there is a nice page if you want to make the change 18:31:34 !c int f(int c = 0) { return c; } int main(void) { return f(); } 18:31:35 Does not compile. 18:31:36 !cxx int f(int c = 0) { return c; } int main(void) { return f(); } 18:31:42 No output. 18:31:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:31:50 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:31:50 (A skientifik eksperiment.) 18:32:21 AnotherTest: In case it wasn't obvious, I am not only satisfied, but overjoyed to be writing code that does not work with C++ compilers. 18:32:51 !c int main() { int x; printf("%d\n", sizeof(x)); } 18:32:53 4 18:32:54 !cxx int main() { int x; printf("%d\n", sizeof(x)); } 18:32:58 Does not compile. 18:33:02 Bam. 18:33:25 Some time ago we had a discussion where we iterated different ways of making code that compiles on both but does different things. It had all the usual suspects, like character constant type differences etc. 18:33:28 Gregor: don't you miss the 1000 lines of error messages caused by a typo in a template name? 18:35:53 I kind of liked http://p.zem.fi/zdga even though it's one of the cheaty ways. 18:36:31 Gregor: Also shame on you for the above; should be %zu or (int)sizeof ... 18:36:57 fizzie: Yes yes it should, but that's not what I was demonstrating. Also your code is horrible and evil and you should feel bad. 18:42:02 Gregor: okay, I feel like there's a joke you're making that I'm not getting. 18:42:20 You said that buffer.h doesn't compile with a C++ compiler, and implied that it does compile with a C compiler. 18:42:34 I'm guessing that buffer.h uses some C tomfoolery that C++ doesn't support. Is that correct? 18:42:45 “Tomfoolery†18:42:52 I demonstrated exactly the “tomfoolery†above. 18:44:07 tswett: You actually have to *work* to get C working in C++. 18:44:10 C tomfoolery would be the absence of strong type checking? :D 18:44:28 tswett: Merely implicit casts from void* don't work. 18:44:42 AnotherTest: If you think that C++ has strong type checking, you're an idiot. 18:44:43 And that comes up whenever you do memory allocation in idiomatic C. 18:45:27 !cxx int main() { int x; return printf("%zu\n", sizeof x) < 0 ? EXIT_FAILURE : EXIT_SUCCESS; } 18:45:30 It merely lacks the biggest hole in C's weak typing. 18:45:31 Does not compile. 18:45:43 Gregor: And not even. 18:45:47 Gregor: some statement that is 18:45:56 void* casts are still perfectly feasible in C++. 18:46:01 They're just *explicit*. 18:46:26 Having explicit casts does not mean you don't have strong type checking 18:46:28 You simply need to say "Yes, I mean to abuse the weak typing". 18:46:50 Having explicit casts does not mean you don't have strong type checking // having explicit or implicit casts which may succeed when the true type is not as specified is by definition lacking strong typing. 18:47:13 AnotherTest: There's no type checking on the casts is the thing! 18:47:28 the programmer just decides to not use strong checking by casting 18:47:33 If you're arguing that C++ without casts is strongly typed, that may (or may not) be the case, but is rather boring. 18:47:46 Also it's not since no array bounds checking *shrugs* 18:47:47 but the language still offers it(although it can be chosen not to use it) 18:47:56 in C, there is no strong checking by default 18:48:03 Gregor: C++ still has implicit casts. 18:48:11 Gregor: Just significantly fewer. 18:48:23 pikhq_: I thought it only had typesafe implicit casts though? 18:48:30 And no implicit pointer casts whatsoever 18:48:34 Erm 18:48:38 Except between related classes of course 18:49:24 Gregor: Eh, probably. ... Except that the type promotion from float to double might give you unwanted excess precision. 18:49:42 (mind you, you get the same damned problem just using x87 floats.) 18:49:42 Gregor: Bjarne Stroustrup at least claims he added strong checking, does that make him an idiot? 18:49:47 pikhq_: That seems unrelated to type safety, to me. 18:49:54 Gregor: Meh, probably. 18:50:10 AnotherTest: Big name implied big thing, is big name an idiot? 18:50:21 Gregor: Base *p; Subclass *q = dynamic_cast(p); will check the type for you during the cast, if you like. 18:50:47 fizzie: At no point did I make the claim that safe casts don't exist >_> 18:50:55 AnotherTest: Have you played with Haskell before? 18:50:56 Although they do have the ugliest cast syntax conceivable :) 18:51:15 (or an ML-variant?) 18:51:28 AnotherTest: *That* is static strong types. 18:51:30 pkhq_: I intend on doing so. I regret to say I have not yet really looked into it well. 18:52:20 Well C++ has at least *some* static type checking 18:52:31 So does C. 18:52:37 s/static/strong static 18:52:57 C has less for sure 18:53:13 -!- calamari has joined. 18:53:15 And both are fairly low on the scale in an absolute sense. 18:53:15 I don't know if it's meaningful for a language to have “some†strong typing. 18:53:43 Gregor: it probably is; something is better then nothing in this case I think 18:53:47 Gregor: Well, you can consider typing to be a continuüm between weak and strong. 18:53:48 *than 18:54:07 -!- calamari has left. 18:54:14 pikhq_: I challenge you to find a single English word in which “uu†is a diaeresis. 18:54:19 If you do this, then C and C++ aren't absolutely at the weak end, but aren't *that* far fron there anyways. 18:54:20 Erm 18:54:23 Sory, is /not/. 18:54:28 X_X 18:54:30 *Sorry 18:55:03 Gregor: Anything with double-u. Which in historical writing was literally written "uu" or "vv". :) 18:55:11 pikhq_: Pff. Cheating. 18:55:20 UUhat do you mean, cheating? :P 18:55:40 Anyways, "muumuu". 18:55:59 "uuhat", or "uû" as it is often written. 18:56:11 "vacuum", in at least US dialects. 18:56:16 Good point. 18:56:19 Uû do you mean it's not written like that? 18:56:26 Deewiant: Good'n! 18:56:27 "Vacuum" is definitely not a diaeresis in US English. 18:56:31 pikhq_: I accept your diaeresis. 18:56:36 Gregor: \o/ 18:56:37 | 18:56:37 /´\ 18:56:38 (Mark) 18:56:55 C++ removes one gap in C's typing (others too, maybe?), and adds a new type hierarchy which is itself, without explicit casts, strongly typed. To me, arguing that it's “more†strongly typed based solely on the grounds that its completely new additions are themselves “more†strongly typed seems odd, particularly since we came to this discussion via compiling C code in C++, so would not be writing idiomatic C++ anyway. 18:57:19 And would be having to move away from idiomatic C to do that as well. 18:57:29 -!- edwardk has joined. 18:57:51 (using implicit void* casts is *very* idiomatic C) 18:58:24 Gregor: adding a strong type check for any language feature could be seen as an addition to the language (is one), so I'm not sure if your point is valid 18:59:35 AnotherTest: Eh, you're still dealing with a language where char* can alias any other pointer. :) 18:59:50 And no array bounds checking, and ALL POINTERS ARE ARRAYS. 19:00:04 But as to porting C to C++: It's probably not worth it 19:00:05 SomeObjectType *foo = new SomeObjectType; foo[-1].lol 19:00:24 std::vector 19:00:26 yay! 19:00:37 std::string 19:00:38 yay! 19:00:42 NULL[foo].lol 19:01:03 pikhq_: I /think/ that would need a cast as NULL is the wrong type ;) 19:01:22 Gregor: Kay, fine. ((uintptr_t)NULL)[foo] 19:01:29 You can always circumvent static checks(delete nullptr; all day long) 19:01:31 Mucho better. 19:01:41 Well maybe not always, but most of the time 19:01:55 Or just 0[foo]. 19:02:15 AnotherTest: If you'd like to play the “define all holes as circumvention†game, we can do that just as easily with C. 19:02:43 And you'd still be dealing in a language where a char* aliases all pointers. 19:02:49 Well, can alias. 19:03:12 Gregor: my_function(1, 2, 3); /* but wants 4 args */ 19:03:42 I wouldn't call that circumvention, it's just human error not found by the compiler 19:03:51 AnotherTest: That's illegal with a complete prototype in C, and legal with varargs in either. 19:04:15 (*(void(*)(int,int,int))myfunction)(1,2,3); // Suck it. 19:04:32 :P 19:04:48 No, I'm seriously trying to figure out wtf AnotherTest is trying to demonstrate here... JavaScript has that flaw, C does not. 19:04:51 Regarding std::vector, I think it's kinda funny that C++ goes and makes "void f(const char* const* p); ... char **q; f(q);" legal, but then when you feel your conscience and want to make that a vector, it's no longer possible, since std::vector certainly can't go to a function expecting const std::vector. 19:05:30 pikhq_, are there any good reason for Tcl arrays to not be first-class? 19:05:34 edwardk, the sudden change in comonad seemed very sudden 19:05:43 fizzie: Yeah. Templates are weird. 19:06:01 Sgeo_: Yes: Tcl "arrays" are nothing more than variables with a certain class of names. 19:06:14 Sgeo_: They just happen to have a more convenient implementation behind the scenes. 19:06:55 Sgeo_: In *principle*, Tcl could be implemented without them actually existing. The array proc would just have to do more work. 19:07:35 Sgeo_: Also, beware that they're poorly named. 19:07:37 pikhq_, but why have these non-first-class things with no built-in first-class alternative until 8.5? 19:07:50 Sgeo_: Tcl arrays are hash tables. 19:08:12 Erm, hash maps. 19:08:58 Sgeo_: Because they're not even there at all. That they're hash maps rather than just variables of name in the form foo(bar) is an implementation detail. 19:10:14 pikhq_, what did people do before 8.5 in places where someone would use a dictionary? 19:10:37 Gregor: http://ideone.com/d7Dv3 19:11:20 Use variables of form foo(bar)? 19:11:31 Sgeo_: Also, keep in mind, strictly speaking dicts don't exist either. 19:11:56 Sgeo_: That they are hash tables rather than strings of a particular form is an implementation detail. 19:11:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:12:24 AnotherTest: "That's illegal WITH A COMPLETE PROTOTYPE in C". The particular example you gave (expects 4) doesn't fit your rather unlikely pattern at all. 19:13:10 Gregor: many code has been written like that I believe 19:13:15 Sgeo_: Everything in Tcl is a string. Some commands happen to treat strings in a particular way. The Tcl implementation stores strings in a format more convenient for those commands as an implementation detail. 19:13:45 -!- calamari has joined. 19:13:45 and writing void as arguments doesn't seem logic 19:13:50 -!- calamari has left. 19:13:57 (maybe because the creator of C++ invented that) 19:14:08 Sgeo_: Even friggin' *numbers* aren't really first-class in Tcl. They're just strings containing digits. 19:14:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:14:39 That's all well and good, but I can 19:14:47 I can't pass an array to a proc the way I can pass a dict 19:14:56 AnotherTest: The example you showed only has issues because a zero-argument function written as "()" in C is, for historical/hysterical reasons, variadic. It ONLY causes an issue if: 1) You are actually calling incorrectly-written zero-parameter functions this way, which is not a type safety issue, 2) you have written your prototypes incorrectly, or 3) you are calling functions without prototypes, which is a warning by default in every modern C compiler. 19:15:08 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:15:10 Sgeo_: [array get foo] 19:15:24 -!- augur has joined. 19:15:42 The (2) case is only harmful in the case where you've written your prototypes as variadic even though your functions take multiple arguments, which is enormously unlikely. 19:15:43 Taneb: sorry bout that. you mean the major version jump? 19:15:49 Yeah 19:15:58 I'm not complaining, it just seemed to come out of nowhere? 19:16:32 Sgeo_: Or, pass the name of the array and the proc peeks up the stack using upvar. 19:16:41 brb 19:16:52 pikhq_, are arrays and dicts identical in terms of their string ..... I don't want to say "representation", although that word works for arrays 19:16:52 AnotherTest: However, I am inclined to agree with you that this is a second C hole that C++ plugged. This sort of “implicit†variadicity should never have existed. 19:16:55 Oh, he's gone ... 19:17:02 Sgeo_: It is "string representation". 19:17:12 Sgeo_: And, yes, they are the same string representation. 19:18:42 pikhq_, do you have opinions of the various OO libraries? 19:18:48 I read a blog post praising Snit 19:18:51 Kinda like Snit. 19:19:02 Apparently Tcl 8.6's OO is based on XOTcl 19:19:26 Yeah, but you're probably going to pretend it doesn't exist. 19:19:30 ? 19:19:47 Tcl 8.6 OO is intended for use as a more efficient backend of the various OO libraries. 19:19:54 Ah 19:19:57 It is Pain to use straight. 19:20:29 Why would it be a pain to use straight if it's XOTcl-inspired? Missing a few XOTcl features, but is XOTcl a pain? 19:22:21 Think "using Gobjects straight"-ish. 19:22:56 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:23:24 -!- augur has joined. 19:23:41 Never touched GObjects 19:24:39 Is something like this morally acceptable, or is there a better command: 19:24:51 dict create {*}{a 5 b 6 d 7} 19:25:09 Say, if the dictionary will have a lot of items and I want to space things out on multiple lines 19:26:18 Couldn't you just do set foo {a 5 b 7 d 7} ? 19:27:41 Are there any efficiency reasons not to? 19:28:11 Uh, not really. Behind the scenes it'll get converted to a dict internally as soon as you use it as one. 19:28:22 Making it essentially the same cost as that dict create call. 19:28:37 Ah\ 19:28:47 Back 19:32:08 pikhq_, why does the Tcl community love Metakit so much, and why aren't there Metakit bindings into languages other than Python Tcl and I forget the third? 19:33:26 Sgeo_: It's friggin' handy being able to stick a Tcl app into a single binary. 19:33:53 SQLite couldn't have been used for the purpose? 19:34:11 I suppose it could have been. 19:34:18 -!- calamari has joined. 19:34:47 I think the Tcl app in a single binary thing is one of the things drawing me to Tcl actually 19:35:22 Also means you get to be bitter at Java in a bit... 19:35:31 ? 19:36:25 For a while, Sun was promoting Tcl as a write-once run-everywhere language. 19:36:28 They dropped it for Java. 19:36:52 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:37:02 Ah 19:37:54 Hm, modern Fythe has no binary format, for no good reason. 19:38:16 Is it cheating for a binary format to involve zlib? 19:38:40 why would it be cheating? 19:39:00 Because it's a way to hide the fact that my binary format is a text format ^_< 19:39:12 Because it's actually work to implement DEFLATE? :P 19:39:36 xor with 64 or 96 and it will look like binary gobbledygook, probably 19:39:47 lol 19:40:01 The only sensible portable format for Fythe is s-expressions. 19:40:17 Speaking of, *god dammit why is my CRC32 off*. 19:40:33 I was hoping for "The only sensible portable format for Fythe is gobbledygook" 19:40:40 lol 19:40:45 "Tcllib has an approximatley yearly release schedule. Version 1.10 has been released September 12, 2007." 19:41:22 http://sprunge.us/SCTK Everything works except that sometimes the CRC-32 is wrong. 19:41:35 *But only sometimes*. 19:41:35 :( 19:41:40 Actually, with a system like Fythe, what I really need is a portable “VM image†format. 19:43:23 So, it occurs to me that I need to send doubles over a network. 19:43:48 Now, before we start, a file written in C can perfectly well link with C++ libraries, right? 19:44:05 of course, but will it work? you can never know 19:44:09 xor each character with the result of the last character after it was xor'ed? 19:44:13 Right, right. 19:44:34 tswett: Yes, just have appropriate use of extern "C" in the header files.. 19:45:03 Oh, good. Let me just rewrite all hundred or so header files to use that. 19:45:05 Okay, done. 19:45:12 I haven't figured out if you're supposed to be able to rely on that (is anything about combining C and C++ actually defined by the standard?), but in practice it's fine 19:45:23 ... provided you have extern "C" where appropriate 19:45:27 olsner: what else would extern "C" be for? 19:45:30 olsner: Yes, extern "C" is part of the spec. 19:45:41 tswett: invoking undefined behavior or something? 19:45:51 Besides, isn't pretty much every programming language ever supposed to interact with C? 19:45:52 It's functionally a light-weight FFI. 19:46:47 Anyway, sending doubles over a network. Can I just cast a double* to a void* and read eight bytes? 19:47:24 Would Snit need to exist if there was one Tcl OO system from the start? 19:47:33 you can definitely read sizeof(double) bytes, but I don't know how strictly defined the internal representation of double is 19:47:42 Because one of the key ideas seems to be treating any object from any object system as an object 19:48:03 If there was one Tcl OO system, there wouldn't be competing systems to treat identically 19:48:04 I hope that "double" never means anything other than a double-precision floating-point. 19:48:54 I mean, if I treat a double as bytes on one system, and then treat those same bytes as a double on a *different* system, am I guaranteed to have the same double each time, or not? 19:50:57 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2701529/recording-reading-c-doubles-in-the-ieee-754-interchange-format suggests you cannot assume that 19:57:07 -!- nooga has joined. 19:57:25 why does lightly touching a "dead" pixel on a TFT sometimes fix the issue? I had a red subpixel stuck in the on-state today, and touching it gently (through a microfibre cloth) fixed the issue. Wikipedia mentions that it can sometimes fix the issue but doesn't give any explanation why that is. 19:57:25 Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:57:32 @messages 19:57:32 nortti said 1d 5h 30m 51s ago: in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti> 19:57:32 Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P) 19:58:58 nortti, speaking of cp, that is like one thing that annoyed me on Android. I had to install busybox using cat to copy it from the sdcard 19:59:10 :P 19:59:26 yeah. why is implementing cp so hard? 20:00:08 (which is not actually an sdcard, just a very weird fuse mapping of a directory in the internal flash memory that mangles permissions to look behave kind of like vfat. 20:00:22 s/look// 20:00:37 (note to self: proof read /after/ editing) 20:01:35 speaking of that, why is the MTP behaviour in ubuntu so erratic. 20:01:56 it worked for a while out of box, and now it doesn't. 20:04:44 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:06:50 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:06:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:08:03 tswett: You are *not* guaranteed that at all. 20:08:19 tswett: A "double" can be any sort of floating point number. 20:08:34 As can a float or a long double. 20:09:56 tswett: Besides which, you couldn't assume that *even if* you knew doubles where always IEEE 754 double-precision floats. 20:10:01 tswett: Endianness! 20:11:18 To be portable you either need to deal in the string representation, or encode into the interchange format manually. 20:12:24 pikhq, C? 20:12:31 Vorpal: Yes. 20:12:34 if so iirc there are some defines from C99 and onwards 20:12:41 that tell you if it is IEEE or not 20:13:33 Vorpal: Yes, you can tell *if* it's IEEE floats or not. You still have to handle endianness. 20:13:39 pikhq, autoconf 20:13:44 (or similar) 20:13:53 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:14:17 Vorpal: Wrong answer! 20:14:25 pikhq, oh? 20:14:49 Vorpal: It feels very stupid and wrong to go #if BIG_ENDIAN swap_bytes(); #endif 20:15:07 don't forget #elsif defined(PDP_ENDIAN) 20:15:31 When what you're actually *doing* is just serialization to a known format. 20:15:46 If your code *cares* about the system's endianness you're doing it wrong. 20:16:38 pikhq, anyway you could just do #ifdef BIG_EDIAN\n#define htond ... 20:16:57 since htonl/htons and so on are essentially that, only defined by the system 20:17:42 Vorpal: Or you could be sane and just do char *serialised_foo = {foo, foo >> 8, foo >> 16, foo >> 24} 20:17:43 Vorpal: knowing about endianness is wrong 20:18:06 -!- myndzi has joined. 20:18:06 (note: only works if foo is unsigned.) 20:18:19 writing portable formats in the sane way will not require having any clue what format you're starting with 20:18:22 olsner, well, the system doesn't provide a hton*/ntoh* set of calls for floating point, which would be really useful 20:18:22 (and uint32_t) 20:18:43 Vorpal: Or you could be sane and just do char *serialised_foo = {foo, foo >> 8, foo >> 16, foo >> 24} <-- foo was a floating point no? 20:18:53 hm 20:19:02 you serialise a floating point to a fixed point number? 20:19:18 oh wait 20:19:31 what does >> do on a double? 20:19:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:19:59 pikhq, is it fair to say that it's impossible to have an object capability system in Tcl because any unique object could be brute-forced? 20:20:13 -!- edwardk has joined. 20:20:15 Sgeo_: Seems so. 20:20:16 Vorpal: I think you shouldn't do that 20:20:26 olsner, you mean what pikhq_ suggested? 20:20:33 pikhq_, that's kind of sad 20:20:39 olsner, or what I suggested? 20:20:45 Vorpal: I was suggesting that on a uint32_t. 20:20:47 Vorpal: do >> on a double 20:20:56 pikhq_, doesn't solve it if you have a double 20:21:03 Although I am more alarmed by the impossibility of code-walking 20:21:05 Vorpal: The correct serialization on a double is more complex. 20:21:16 pikhq_, I thought that was the topic though 20:21:21 Vorpal: solutions for uint32_t are not generally applicable on doubles 20:21:32 pikhq_, anyway for uint32_t you just use htonl/ntohl 20:21:35 If you want it in IEEE 754 exchange format, you will need to actually compute what the double is in that format. 20:21:57 uint32_t ntohl(uint32_t netlong); 20:22:04 Vorpal: *No you don't*, you pretend those stupid god-damned functions don't exist, byte-swapping is *the wrong solution*. 20:22:04 according to my man page 20:22:22 Vorpal: What you do is serialize things in the format you want. 20:22:24 And that's all. 20:22:28 pikhq_, so how do you work with *nix sockets? 20:22:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:22:37 iirc several of those calls require those functions 20:22:52 Vorpal: You call it a god-damned retarded API, and deal. 20:22:53 pikhq_, is there a reason tcllib has two different OO libraries? 20:22:59 right 20:23:01 just pretend that htonl are not endian-related but are "silly things you call to work with unix sockets" 20:23:08 Vorpal: Otherwise, you serialize things in the format you want. 20:23:21 -!- stanley has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:24:22 Sgeo_: If it's a pure Tcl library, it can go in Tcllib. There's not much vetting for redundancy. 20:24:43 why exactly are those functions silly though? Silly to use with the socket API yes (would be more sensible if it used native endian and converted internally). But not silly in general 20:25:44 Vorpal: Because they're up there with casting pointers to and from int in correctness. 20:26:05 It occurs to me that Tequila would be a very very good thing for use in implementing Network Headache 20:26:16 Vorpal: You are not trying to convert from host byte order to network byte order, you are merely serializing data. 20:26:26 pikhq_, there is a difference though, POSIX specifies hton*/ntoh*, but casting pointers is very clearly undefined. 20:26:30 Vorpal: So god-damned serialize the data. 20:26:54 pikhq_, I'm now wondering if I should implement Network Headache 20:27:00 but sure, you have a point in that serialising data is a different task 20:27:08 -!- stanley has joined. 20:27:08 -!- stanley has quit (Changing host). 20:27:08 -!- stanley has joined. 20:27:14 Sgeo_, new esolang? 20:27:25 Vorpal, old one 20:27:26 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache 20:27:28 ah 20:27:39 ....oh, hmm 20:28:14 Especially because hton*/ntoh* only helps you in the case when you're trying to bludgeon uint32_ts and uint16_ts into big-endian format anyways. 20:28:19 Well, there's already an implementiation in Pythonm 20:28:34 i.e. they don't even solve the problem. 20:29:01 that would require always connected. Reminds me of certain forms of DRM 20:29:13 (the page that Sgeo_ linked that is) 20:29:17 I think a lot of programmers share the incorrect view on this (byteswapping and endian-#ifdeffing vs serialization), I wonder if there's a succinct description somewhere on why they're doing it wrong 20:29:33 pikhq_, btw for serialising, what about singed integers? 20:29:56 you could have issues there (2-complement, 1-complement, sign bit) 20:30:02 Vorpal: *Clearly* you'll need to write them out in the format you want. 20:30:16 sing them backwards until they have been unsung 20:30:30 Vorpal: If you want 2s complement, you'll need to stick the absolute value in an unsigned number, bitwise not, and add 1. 20:30:40 pikhq_, and using text files is even worse. What if you move the file to an EBCDIC machine (from an ASCII machine) 20:30:45 It's either that or assume you're dealing with numbers of known representation. 20:31:07 Vorpal: Nah, assume UTF-8. Anything else is broken in profound ways. 20:31:44 isn't the conversion to unsigned defined to work the same way as "reinterpreting the bits as 2's complement" would? 20:31:45 pikhq_, the reality however is that one of the most popular operating systems use UTF-16. Which is indeed broken (BOM urgh) 20:31:51 olsner: Is it? 20:31:56 in fact the most popular OS 20:32:16 iirc, it's "add 2^n until the value is in range of the unsigned type" 20:32:23 Vorpal: Yes, Windows is a maximally broken platform. 20:32:23 where n is the number of bits in the type 20:32:50 Vorpal: You cannot write compliant C that handles all filenames on the platform currently. 20:33:01 olsner: Okay, then. 20:33:15 So, just cast to unsigned and you've got it in 2's complement. 20:33:28 indeed 20:33:36 I remember thinking "oh, how clever of them to avoid invoking 2's complement in this definition" 20:33:39 Well, that makes *that* easier. 20:34:02 pikhq_, actually couldn't you use the posix layer on windows 20:34:17 I wonder what that does wrt UTF-8/UTF-16 20:34:26 probably something completely broken 20:34:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:34:48 perhaps it converts to ASCII replacing all characters above 0x7f with ? 20:37:21 Vorpal: I'm pretty sure that just hands you the UTF-8 file names. 20:37:36 Vorpal: Windows filesystems post-LFN deal in Unicode natively. 20:37:42 hm 20:37:48 LFN? 20:37:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:37:52 Long file names. 20:39:23 That legacy encodings are the *only* supported encodings for char strings on Win32 is just a stupid, stupid design decision that they *work* to maintain. 20:40:24 how does NTFS store strings internally? 20:40:31 of the filenames I mean 20:40:31 Pretty sure UTF-16. 20:40:46 Just like FAT LFNs. 20:40:51 hm 20:41:20 -!- rapido has joined. 20:44:10 pikhq, when you think about it, UTF8 is pretty crazy too 20:44:20 anyone fond of prolog unification? 20:44:35 Vorpal: How so? 20:44:53 unification is more generic than pattern matching 20:44:55 Vorpal: Keeping in mind that all Unicode transformation formats are inherently variable-width. 20:45:21 pikhq, it is basically a compression scheme for UCS4, specialized to favour western texts 20:45:38 using UCS4 and gzip/deflate/etc where needed would make more sense 20:45:54 Well, yes. Except that that's not the design goal. 20:46:25 The design goal is not to break everything which assumes a string is composed of series of bytes. 20:47:08 Making it so that Unicode 'just works' on nearly everything. 20:47:18 indeed. Backward compatibility often (not always!) result in crazy and/or bad designs though 20:47:20 Except when a *certain* OS vendor actively works to break it. 20:49:19 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 20:49:26 -!- nortti_ has joined. 20:49:51 pikhq, not considering backward compatibility however, UTF-8 (and all other variable-width encodings) are however stupid. 20:50:04 in fact there is a lot of stupidity in unicode in general from that perspective 20:50:21 there are actual unicode-specific compression schemes 20:50:24 more complicated than utf-8 20:50:34 why do you consider variable width encodings to be stupid? 20:50:42 clearly some characters occur more often than others 20:50:51 BMP characters occur vastly more often than non-BMP characters 20:51:12 Vorpal: Dude, Unicode could be *much* clearer if we went more variable-width on it. 20:51:22 There's no sense in all the precomposed hangul jamo. 20:52:08 Heck, in principle hanzi could all be a bunch of radicals. (admittedly, this'd make it hard to *render*. But, a couple hundred entries and it'd be Complete.) 20:52:38 clearly some characters occur more often than others <-- varies between languages 20:52:46 sure, some are rare in all languages 20:53:07 But getting rid of the precomposed hangul jamo would be quite beneficial and an easy change. 20:53:19 (given that a system already has to deal with jamo composition) 20:53:36 Vorpal: everything outside the BMP is extremely rare in all extant languages 20:53:41 but as long as we make the minimum size 8 bits we will have to favour some languages 20:53:57 kmc, sure, but all of BMP doesn't fit in a byte 20:54:00 yeah 20:54:07 so what 20:54:45 Vorpal: But the 7 bit range of Unicode is profoundly common in real-world data. Even in languages that don't use them at all. 20:55:03 (courtesy of nearly all text exchange formats being English-based) 20:55:34 also it wasn't those bits of stupidity I was referring to in specific for the crazy bits of unicode. I was thinking about stuff like double-width letters having separate code points, or the blackboard bold math chars 20:55:40 both of those are formatting 20:55:51 which doesn't really belong in unicode 20:56:06 Yes, those are kinda ludicrous. 20:56:20 There for backwards-compat reasons. 20:56:32 and the zero width space? I guess there must be some use case for it, but I can't think of one. 20:56:49 It's necessary for some languages. 20:56:57 in what way? 20:57:20 Oh, sorry, that's zero-width non-joiner... 20:58:03 Vorpal: Basically to indicate that a ligature is inappropriate. 20:58:10 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido). 20:58:13 you can't see a zero width space when written on paper (which all current scripts were intended for, or papyrus, or clay tablets and so on), so how could it change anything semantically 20:58:43 pikhq, isn't zero width space separate from zero-width non-joiner though? 20:58:49 Yes, they are. 20:58:56 The zero-width non-joiner is semantics. 20:58:59 so what is the point of the zero width space 20:59:24 The zero-width space is... Typesetting? 20:59:34 which should indeed not be part of unicode. 20:59:38 Yeah, doesn't really belong in Unicode. 20:59:49 Unless we're going to expand the scope of it profoundly. 20:59:54 (which I'd call ludicrous 20:59:55 ) 21:00:26 exactly 21:01:03 also the code point numbering is kind of weird. I seem to remember there are several separate blocks with math related symbols 21:01:12 why 21:01:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:02:26 apart from ASCII, is there anything else that the unicode codepoints are actually compatible with? 21:02:39 latin1? 21:02:56 olsner, doesn't åäö map differently between latin1 and unicode iirc? 21:03:01 No. 21:03:03 or is that just with UTF-8? 21:03:20 The second block is directly ISO-8859-1. 21:03:29 Their UTF-8 expansions are two-byte, of course. 21:03:30 UTF-8 encodes them differently, but the low 8 bits of Unicode are ISO-8859-1. 21:03:30 obviously, utf-8 will result in different sequences of bytes, but the numbering of the codepoints match latin-1 21:03:39 The Unicode CODEPOINTS are latin1 compatible, but there is no useful Unicode ENCODING that is. 21:03:43 everyone the same thing at once! 21:03:47 YES 21:04:07 pikhq, ah 21:04:18 Zero-width no-break space (i.e. the same character as the BOM) has the excuse of having same semantics as zero-width word joiner but existing before that was added; the zero-width space (that is used for marking word break opportunities in scripts with no visible word spacing) is quite typographical, though. 21:04:39 Gregor, there is always UCS1 ;) 21:04:39 You can convert ISO-8859-1 to UTF-16 just by adding NULL. :) 21:04:48 Vorpal: Good one. :) 21:04:52 Vorpal: “useful†21:05:27 Gregor, it is highly useful. It offers perfect interoperability with a large group of legacy systems! 21:05:38 You can also (obviously) convert back from UTF-16 to ISO-8859-1 by dropping every other byte, and barfing if the dropped byte's not zero. 21:05:44 UCS1? 21:06:08 nortti_: 1-byte encoding of Unicode. 21:06:16 really? 21:06:18 -!- nothing has joined. 21:06:19 nortti_: don't listen to Vorpal :) 21:06:27 nortti_: Formed by analogy with UCS-2 and UCS-4. 21:06:34 And UCS-16. 21:06:43 -!- nothing has changed nick to Guest33002. 21:06:51 `welcome Guest33002 21:06:54 It has the advantage where one codepoint fits neatly in a SSE register. 21:06:55 fizzie, that would be one crazy encoding 21:06:59 Guest33002: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:06:59 * Guest33002 waves 21:07:18 * Guest33002 will need to remember how to use IRC -- It's been a little while. 21:07:20 UCS-16 allows a full GUID per character 21:07:23 UCS-0.5. 4 bits per codepoint. Need letters? TOO BAD. 21:07:30 :P 21:07:36 what about baudot 21:07:51 fizzie, UCS32 would work well with AVX 21:08:14 kmc: it was 5bit 21:08:20 Vorpal: Yes, though people might accidentally confuse UCS-16 and UCS-32 with UCS-2 and UCS-4, assuming that the numbers are referring to bits. 21:08:46 fizzie, and then there is the small matter of it covering a superset of unicode 21:09:11 UTF-2 21:09:13 should be possible 21:09:18 Vorpal: Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily. 21:09:40 :P 21:09:49 olsner: Almost, it wouldn't really be “UTF†though, in that it wouldn't fit the patterns of the other. 21:09:50 :-D 21:09:59 Vorpal: like with UCS-4, there is no problem if the encoding has plenty of extra space 21:10:02 anyway one issue with any variaible-width encoding is that strlen() is O(n) 21:10:05 olsner: But yeah, it should be possible to have a per-bit “there are more bits†bit. 21:10:37 Vorpal: and strlen is normally O(1)? 21:10:41 UTF-7 is quite different from UTF-8 anyway. 21:10:54 `addquote Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily. 21:10:58 851) Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily. 21:11:09 olsner, not in C no, but many languages store strings as (size,start*) 21:11:31 I guess you could add a length field to that, but it sounds annoying to implement correctly 21:11:42 Vorpal: Doesn't help indexing anyway. 21:12:00 Gregor, that too 21:12:06 You can do UTF-8 ropes just fine, though. 21:12:07 -!- Guest33002 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:12:27 if you're indexing strings of text you're probably doing it wrong anyway 21:13:05 Vorpal: Pssst, strlen() doesn't tell you anything useful except the number of chars taken by a string. 21:13:09 iirc erlang store strings as a linked list of integers (bignum on demand) with the unicode codepoints. Seems like a reasonable representation in the circumstances 21:13:15 Vorpal: It is literally *useless* if you want to render it. 21:13:20 Vorpal: Even if you are rendering ASCII. 21:13:49 pikhq, in C indeed. I meant a more general "string length" as is typically found in a high level language that doesn't assume fixed width chars 21:14:02 pikhq, also string length works fine with a monospace font 21:14:10 It remains useless if you want to render it. 21:14:10 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:14:13 (assuming no crazy double width letters) 21:14:16 (or similar) 21:14:32 "Assuming it's trivial, it's trivial!" 21:14:45 indeed! 21:15:28 pikhq, anyway character count is useful for other purposes. 21:15:35 Like? 21:16:07 pikhq, I had pieces of homework that had a max letter count. More often they had max word count sure, but I have seen both. 21:16:47 Hey, look, it's a niche use! 21:16:48 you used strlen to measure the size of your homework? 21:17:09 pikhq, and there are many comment fields on web pages and similar that limit how many letters you can type. Twitter is an obvious example, though there are a lot more 21:17:12 ... That you probably have to iterate through anyways, unless you consider space and punctuation to be "letters". 21:17:34 olsner, no, I obviously used the char count function in whatever editor I was using 21:17:42 iirc twitter counts codepoints 21:17:48 -!- edwardk has joined. 21:17:59 olsner, indeed, which means C strlen() would be bloody useless! 21:18:10 olsner: Nah, integers encoded with the UTF-8 encoding algorithm. 21:18:22 Vorpal: indeed, so why did you bring it up? 21:18:34 Vorpal: Anyways, what you're advocating is premature optimization. You're trying to optimize a use-case that *doesn't matter*. 21:19:27 Hardly anything actually cares how many individual glyphs there are, so it doesn't matter to try to give you a 1-to-1 mapping between glyphs and encoding units. 21:19:27 hmm, that's nice, did twitter forget to check the range of the utf-8 data you send them? 21:19:29 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:19:33 pikhq, no what I'm advocating is using UCS4 internally because such a representation is simpler to work with. Less complex code than when dealing with variable-width encodings. 21:19:33 olsner: Yup! 21:19:51 Vorpal: Except that UCS-4 is a variable-width encoding. 21:20:13 pikhq, hm? Isn't it just 4-byte per code point? 21:20:17 Vorpal: A glyph is composed of 1 or more code points. 21:20:26 s/-/ /;s/byte/bytes/ 21:20:40 pikhq, hm true 21:20:42 fixed-size code points will not save you from the variable-width glyphs 21:20:58 or any of the other 3.7 million problems in text processing 21:21:21 And besides which, there is no sensible way you could *actually use* knowledge of being single-width. 21:22:20 If you just start indexing and munging strings, you're going to either be *parsing* it, in which case this doesn't matter at all, or you're doing some algorithm that doesn't care that you're passing it semantically meaningful text, or you're just fucking shit up. 21:22:26 pikhq, it would make indexing into the string a lot simpler (though multi-codepoint stuff breaks that indeed) 21:22:41 if you're indexing strings of text you're probably doing it wrong anyway 21:22:44 Except *you can't meaningfully index into the string*. 21:23:12 -!- edwardk has joined. 21:23:25 pikhq, for any specific reason apart from the multi-codepoint glyphs? 21:23:32 which does indeed mess the whole thing up 21:23:44 Vorpal: Let's index "Vorpal"[2]. What meaning does this operation have? 21:23:49 None. 21:23:53 Congrats, you got an o. 21:24:02 Erm, an r. 21:24:33 Now, what are you doing if you're doing this? 21:24:40 could be an o if there were shenanigans involved, but I think the example was about the case where there isn't even anything weird in there 21:24:41 pikhq, a user selecting the third letter of a nick displayed on screen in the IRC client network settings? 21:24:53 (for copying perhaps) 21:24:59 Vorpal: Oh, look, you're dealing in rendering. 21:25:07 good point 21:25:11 Congrats, the actual codepoint representation doesn't matter. 21:25:24 selecting by mouse? then you're selecting glyphs rendered in a font, etc 21:26:24 Basically the only way having a single-width encoding helps you is if you also make the assumption that you're dealing in monospace text. 21:26:25 olsner, who said mouse? There are plenty of different ways to select. Shift-arrow key for example. Or touch screen. 21:26:35 selecting by keyboard? you'd be iterating glyphs according to some rule about what a glyph is (though a stupid implementation could just let you select code points ignoring everything fiddly) 21:26:49 Which *isn't generally valid*. 21:28:06 pikhq, on my screen atm the only text that isn't monospace belongs to the gnome 2 panels at the top and the bottom 21:28:13 oh and the title bar 21:28:38 And your terminal borks horribly on non-Western text, no doubt. :) 21:29:01 I'd type a + combining diaeresis just to get some two-codepoint single-glyph content in there, but don't quite know how on this Windows thing. 21:29:22 pikhq, gnome-terminal with Dejavu Sans Mono. No idea how that will behave in such cases. 21:29:40 Vorpal: "Strangely". 21:29:44 it might very well turn out to not actually be monospace 21:29:53 There's no sensible monospace rendering of a large number of languages. 21:29:55 I don't have problems on xfce's terminal 21:30:00 pikhq, for some stuff certainly. 21:30:03 Which is probably the same as gnome-terminal 21:30:19 Vorpal: Like Arabic script. 21:30:23 Lumpio-, pretty similar yeah. I use xfce on my desktop 21:30:32 I mean it's both gnome-vte AFAIK 21:30:35 Or whatever it was called 21:30:51 And I have no problems with Japanese text on Irssi or bash. 21:30:54 Or vim for that matter 21:31:05 Text rendering is hard. Anything that people think makes it easier is just them breaking shit. 21:31:11 I assume it will break on those horrible wide chars thingy, which IMO should not even exist in unicode (as I mentioned earlier) 21:31:21 Badly implemented fancy ncurses-esque UIs can break with funny characters though. 21:31:35 Vorpal: Actually, terminals handle wide chars. 21:31:40 How are wide chars horrible 21:31:52 Vorpal: They generally make the weird assumption that chars come in single and double width. 21:32:01 ｉ　ｂｅｔ　ｈï½ï½Œï½†ã€€ï½”ｈｅ　ï½ï½…ï½ï½ï½Œï½…　ｈｅｒｅ　ｃï½ï½Žâ€™ï½”　ｓｅｅ　ｔｈｉｓ 21:32:07 ｗｉｔｈ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｒｅｔｒï½ã€€ï½”ï½…ï½’ï½ï½‰ï½Žï½ï½Œï½“ 21:32:23 pikhq, heh 21:32:23 Vorpal: In legacy CJK encodings, a "single width" character was 1 byte, and a "double width" one was 2 bytes. 21:32:44 Which encodings exactly 21:32:54 I'm pretty sure byte width had nothing to do with visual width even in the old encodings 21:32:57 `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ Vorpal 21:33:01 ​ＶＯＲＰＡＬ：　ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ　ＴＯ　ＴＨＥ　ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ　ＨＵＢ　ＦＯＲ　ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ　ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ　ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ　ＤＥＳＩＧＮ　ＡＮＤ　ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴï¼ã€€ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ã€€ï¼­ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼¥ã€€ï¼©ï¼®ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼­ï¼¡ï¼´ï¼©ï¼¯ï¼®ï¼Œã€€ï¼£ï¼¨ï¼¥ï¼£ï¼«ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼´ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼²ã€€ï¼·ï¼©ï¼«ï¼©ï¼šã€€ï¼¨ï¼´ï¼´ï¼°ï¼šï¼ï¼ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼¯ï¼¬ï¼¡ï¼®ï¼§ï¼³ 21:33:07 oh dear 21:33:08 ouch 21:33:08 Lumpio-: Did on DOS. :) 21:33:11 Serioously? 21:33:14 fizzie: what *is* that? 21:33:23 olsner: a welcome message? 21:33:24 olsner: Double-wide welcome. 21:33:33 pikhq: ok, can't say I ever used such ancient tech with CJK languages 21:34:04 but in which encoding? I just get mojibake 21:34:10 ​ＶＯＲＰＡＬ：　ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ　ＴＯ　ＴＨＥ　ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ　ＨＵＢ　ＦＯＲ　ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ　ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ　ＬＡï 21:34:10 ¼®ï¼§ï¼µï¼¡ï¼§ï¼¥ã€€ï¼€ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼©ï¼§ï¼®ã€€ï¼¡ï¼®ï¼€ã€€ï¼€ï¼¥ï¼°ï¼¬ï¼¯ï¼¹ï¼­ï¼¥ï¼®ï¼´ï¼Â　ＦＯＲ　ＭＯＲＥ　ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ，　ＣＨＥＣＫ　ＯＵＴ　ＯＵＲ　ＷＩＫ 21:34:13 Ｉ：　ＨＴＴＰ：ï¼Âï¼ÂＥＳＯＬＡＮＧï¼ 21:34:13 UTF-8, I presume. 21:34:15 olsner: UTF-8. 21:34:15 I can see it fine. I'm pretty sure gtk is doing the "oops, lets get the letter from a different font" thing though 21:34:21 olsner: Your IRC client is broken. 21:34:26 because the double width stuff looks like a bitmap font 21:34:35 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:46 I don't know if there's any font where double-width doesn't look like utter shit :) 21:34:50 no antialias and still pretty readable 21:35:29 Well, double width latin looks weird by definition because there's just too much space. 21:35:37 the double width R top is one pixel higher than the top of the O 21:35:42 meh, but freenode is set to UTF-8 for me, so it should work? 21:35:47 so "ＯＵＲ" looks really strange 21:35:59 like a type writer that put the R slightly higher 21:36:16 is the bot prefixing something to prevent botloops, that confuses my client? 21:36:19 hm looks like only R is affected like that, no other letter 21:36:34 olsner, did it work when I pasted it? 21:36:54 Vorpal: "OUR"? yes, that worked 21:37:00 olsner, hm okay 21:37:09 olsner: It's a GregorBot, so it should be prefixing zero-width something, but that too in UTF-8. 21:37:11 either your client or hackego must be broken then 21:37:23 That said, I'm only assuming it's UTF-8. But it works for me. 21:37:58 `ls 21:38:00 bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom 21:38:04 `ls quotes 21:38:07 quotes 21:38:16 `cat bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ 21:38:19 ah 21:38:19 ​#!/bin/sh \ WELCOME "$@" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/ï¼-～/; y/ /　/' 21:38:25 `file bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ 21:38:29 bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: POSIX shell script text executable 21:38:29 oh 21:38:30 right 21:38:32 that won't help 21:38:46 hmm, I do see the zero-width something as a missing-character box when I read the logs from http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 21:38:56 `run bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ | file - 21:39:00 ​/dev/stdin: UTF-8 Unicode text 21:39:03 yeah 21:39:04 UTF-8 21:39:09 (probably) 21:39:22 Based on the code, it certainly seems so. 21:39:31 olsner, no CTCP VERSION reply? 21:40:19 `cat bin/No 21:40:22 ​#!/bin/sh 21:40:24 What's that about? 21:40:34 `No 21:40:37 No output. 21:40:43 `No output. 21:40:46 No output. 21:40:47 Oh, of course. 21:40:51 fizzie: confusing you 21:41:26 Vorpal: XChat 21:41:35 olsner, hm /charset iirc? 21:41:41 what does it display 21:41:44 UTF-8? 21:42:01 iirc xchat can get confused between network settings and what actually happens 21:42:36 Vorpal: UTF-8 indeed 21:42:54 olsner, any bouncer? 21:43:06 not that I know of, what's that? 21:43:36 like znc or such. You run it on a sever and connect to it. It keeps the connection and logging and so on going in the background for you 21:43:52 and can display a replay of the last n lines when you connect the irc client 21:48:12 do you need bouncer for something? 21:52:01 hm? 22:15:39 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:15:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:21:45 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 22:23:59 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 22:27:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:27:34 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:47:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:07:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:07:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:11:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:20:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:38:57 to whoever is interested, icfp programming contest starts tomorrow 23:40:04 intercontinental fallopian probes 23:40:26 @wn fallopian 23:40:27 No match for "fallopian". 23:40:38 MAKING UP TERMS, HMMM? 23:40:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallopian_tube 23:41:09 oerjan: It turns out that I'll be free during it. 23:41:15 But I'm not sure whether I'll do it... 23:47:12 -!- madbr has joined. 23:47:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:48:09 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 2012-07-13: 00:43:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:50:30 kmc: I joined #python earlier and they were making fun of how stupid those static languages and people who use them are. 00:51:18 shachaf, do they ever think about what the most common implementation of Python is written in? 00:51:41 Vorpal: that's a silly argument 00:51:45 Vorpal: "I hate making hardware." 00:51:48 shachaf: like bizarro world #haskell, eh? 00:51:55 "Are you aware what your software runs on?" 00:52:02 kmc, true, but so is the idea that static languages are stupid 00:52:18 shachaf: ahahaha 00:52:20 shachaf, hardware is awesome though not easy. 00:52:23 Vorpal: It's a silly idea but that counterargument isn't very valid. 00:53:13 hardware afaik is mostly long to design :D 00:53:36 optimised assembler is like 10 times slower to write than C++ for instance 00:53:53 though it's partly processor dependent 00:55:52 anyway some good reasons to use statically typed languages: Better error checking at an early stage (compile time errors are much better than runtime errors) 00:55:52 kmc: Did I just troll-by-proxy? 00:55:52 another good reason is that it provides the optimiser with much more information 00:55:52 Vorpal: You don't need to tell me about advantages of statically-typed languages. 00:55:53 I think a statically typed language with some support for dynamic typing if you really want to (and where the dynamic typing would be easy to spot for someone reading the code) would be the optimal way to go. Something like a (static!) type Dynamic that can be contain any type or such. Wasn't there something for haskell kind of doing that? 00:56:29 that would probably be nice yes 00:56:45 madbr, I have written some VHDL. And that isn't even on the level of designing transistors and so on. Presumably doing ASIC development is even harder than just working against an FPGA 00:57:07 Also with std::string, vector and map as basic types instead of half grafted on things 00:57:34 no 00:57:39 fewer baked in things is better 00:57:53 Vorpal: that Dynamic type is part of the GHC Haskell standard library, yes 00:58:02 yeah but the base weakness of C/C++ is the lack of built in types 00:58:04 uh 00:58:09 C/C++ 00:58:09 ahaha that makes no sense 00:58:12 kmc, really haven't worked that much with haskell, only the basics 00:58:12 yep 00:58:22 yeah but the base weakness of C/C++ is the lack of variable size structures 00:58:37 Vorpal: oh, well, wishing for a static language with a feature Haskell already has is a common enough occurrence 00:58:45 everything is fine as long as none of your strings or arrays ever change size 00:58:49 I'm not sure a string should be a fundamental type. Sure there are some good arguments for it. It definitely shouldn't be handled as an array of chars. But I think a linked list of chars (in a language having the linked list as a fundamental type, like Erlang or Scheme) is a good representation. 00:59:06 What does "fundamental" mean? 00:59:12 Vorpal: that has terrible performance though 00:59:19 vorpal: that's kinda impossible to parallelize 00:59:21 A language should let you make your own abstractions. 00:59:28 i think you need some general purpose type for things contiguous in memory 00:59:33 and you can apply that to characters 00:59:35 That's probably the most important thing in a high-level language. 00:59:36 abstractions? 00:59:40 shachaf, I presume kmc meant "baked into the syntax of the language, and is more than just syntax sugar for something else" 00:59:41 I don't need abstractions 00:59:46 I need arrays of floats 00:59:49 and shit like that 01:00:08 i think you need some general purpose type for things contiguous in memory and you can apply that to characters <-- you can create a binary containing a string in erlang as well 01:01:00 purely functional data type though (can sometimes be optimised to be mutable if the compiler can be sure it won't be visible elsewhere though), so there are some interesting things to be aware of. 01:01:25 mutable types are nice 01:01:41 A language should let you make your own abstractions. <-- so something like lisp? 01:02:07 Vorpal: are there popular implementations which do that? 01:02:08 Vorpal: That's one kind of abstraction. 01:02:17 kmc, hm? 01:02:29 optimize data structures to be mutable locally 01:02:38 kmc: Languages with uniqueness typing, maybe? 01:02:42 the problem is the aliasing caused by pointers 01:02:43 kmc, popular implementations of erlang? 01:02:47 of anything 01:02:50 whatever you were talking about 01:02:50 kmc, there is just one Erlang implementation 01:03:00 I guess it is the most popular Erlang implementation 01:03:02 XD 01:03:02 "is that a thing at all" 01:03:05 is what i'm asking 01:03:19 it's a common misconception about GHC and Haskell 01:03:21 kmc: It's a thing that they tell young Haskell programmers to get them to go to sleep. 01:03:26 yeah 01:03:32 to my knowledge GHC does not really do that 01:03:34 I believed it for a while! 01:03:42 but it does eliminate intermediate data structures entirely, sometime 01:03:43 kmc, oh yeah, erlang can optimise certain appending style operations to mutate the data in certain cases 01:03:58 afaik it is fairly restricted, but it is documented in the efficiency section of the manual 01:03:59 the nice thing about pure functional data structures isn't some weird compiler trick 01:04:20 it's that they *fundamentally* support efficient non-destructive update 01:04:33 if you implement a binary search tree in the most naive way in Haskell with a stupid naive Haskell compiler 01:04:38 pikhq, why are there no Tcl "data structures" that map cleanly to a bunch of Tcl commands? 01:04:39 and you add a new node into a tree 01:04:40 "give your compiler this one weird tip to make your data structures support efficient non-destructive update" 01:04:48 the "new tree" will share most of its storage with the old one 01:04:57 Lists are good for one Tcl command, thus making construction with [list ... ] simple 01:05:04 There seems to be nothing for multiple commands 01:05:05 kmc, well binaries are fairly efficient anyway. A lot of operations on them will do stuff like "this is a view of byte 8 to byte 83 (plus 3 extra bits) of this underlying binary" 01:05:06 kmc: Not with a naïve implementation that copies everything! 01:05:09 won't that have a zillion tiny allocations? 01:05:14 Which might be the most obvious implementation. 01:05:19 -!- monqy_ has joined. 01:05:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 01:05:23 honqy_ 01:05:24 (yeah binaries don't have to be whole byte sizes) 01:05:41 madbr: sure, but a typical Haskell runtime uses an allocator where allocation is vastly cheaper than malloc() 01:05:41 -!- monqy_ has changed nick to monqy. 01:06:01 heh really 01:06:01 though you pay for it later in the garbage collector 01:06:04 well yes 01:06:09 kmc, anyway LISP style linked lists support prepending for example without copying 01:06:10 allocation in GHC is just a matter of incrementing a pointer 01:06:15 what does it do, just increment a pointer? 01:06:23 Vorpal: that is an example of my fundamental property, not of some compiler trick 01:06:24 or tail without copying 01:06:42 but what does it do later when half the data in the array is alive and half is not 01:06:50 recompact everything???!?? 01:06:53 compacting garbage collector 01:06:53 yes 01:07:00 which is also good for cache utilization 01:07:13 ???!?? 01:07:31 yeah provided you can lock the whole program for like 200ms once in a while 01:07:37 yeah 01:07:47 allocation in GHC is just a matter of incrementing a pointer <-- like a stack then? 01:07:51 can't do that in the kind of code I write :D 01:07:55 if you have realtime constraints then the story is different 01:07:56 (games, software synths) 01:07:59 sure 01:08:16 hm real time haskell, is there any hard realtime haskell variant? 01:08:19 both of which are traditionally programmed in C++ 01:08:23 Vorpal: ask in #haskell 01:08:30 Vorpal: yes, like, a stack, but you never pop either 01:08:44 you just accumulate objects in this region, in order, until it's full 01:08:46 then you run the GC 01:08:47 btw, I'm going to be working with hard realtime systems pretty soon 01:08:50 "like, a stack, but you never pop" 01:08:52 whoa, dude 01:08:53 ie you leak until the GC runs 01:09:05 got a job at Atlas Copco, starting the end of this month 01:09:10 madbr: uh, yes 01:09:17 that is how a GC works 01:09:31 Not a reference-counting "GC"! 01:09:35 using the word "leak" there is disingenuous 01:09:41 I guess that's not really a GC. 01:09:52 shachaf: since when did words in CS mean anything? 01:10:01 "like, a stack, but you never pop" <-- you could make your address space cyclic and use that as a cache kind of thing maybe?? 01:10:04 kmc: Good point. 01:10:18 you need some way to detect overwritten references though 01:10:48 really it's not disingenuous, just false 01:10:56 a leak is an dead object which will never be freed 01:11:09 well, I guess it's a hyperbole 01:11:18 you say "hyperbole" i say "wrong" 01:11:21 it's not really a leak 01:11:25 anyway i'm not saying GC is the answer to anything 01:11:29 but it is more efficient in some ways 01:11:32 and less efficient in others 01:11:37 leak: Sometimes a leak is an object which has been freed despite best efforts to keep it hidden! 01:11:45 s/lea(.)/\1mc/ 01:11:47 people who don't like GC tend to paint it as strictly less efficient and for lazy programmers only 01:11:50 that's simply not true 01:12:06 since when was reference counting considered a GC? You could have a GC that detect and take care of cycles in such a system though (lol python) 01:12:13 compacting garbage collection gives you faster allocation and better cache utilization, at the expense of periodic pauses 01:12:29 I'm not convinced about better cache use 01:13:14 ok 01:13:18 well i don't have any numbers handy 01:13:24 this isn't an area i know in depth 01:13:31 what about non compacting GC? 01:13:45 madbr: Sucks. 01:14:04 It gives you all the downsides of GC with most of the downsides of malloc. 01:14:07 madbr: Better cache use than what? 01:14:21 pikhq, I'm pretty sure many VMs use those for small collections 01:14:30 with bigger, compacting collections more rarely 01:14:36 unless I missremember 01:14:45 misremember* 01:14:56 shachaf: than traditional malloc-using C++ code I guess 01:15:04 you shouldn't be using malloc in C++ 01:15:09 Vorpal: The smaller your heap the cheaper compacting GC is. 01:15:14 you should use new, preferably with smart pointers 01:15:18 pikhq, hm true 01:15:21 kmc: same as malloc 01:15:31 i guess by "C++" most people mean "C with whatever C++ features i feel like understanding" 01:15:42 pikhq, well if you have a pool for very large allocations it might not be a good idea to compact that too often I guess 01:15:48 except for the smart pointer thing 01:16:04 Vorpal: Yes, you'd probably be best trying to split it into small and large object pools. 01:16:12 kmc, what are C++ smart pointers? 01:16:15 Compacting large allocations is really rather painful. 01:16:26 a smart pointer is a class which wraps a pointer, but provides some nicer semantics and/or guarantees 01:16:27 vorpal: reference counted objects AFAIK 01:16:29 pikhq, combined with a generational GC as well 01:16:33 they aren't always reference counted 01:16:39 you can have a reference-counted smart pointer 01:16:52 And besides which, you'll probably want to make it so that space contains objects that don't reference other things. 01:16:55 a smart pointer is a class which wraps a pointer, but provides some nicer semantics and/or guarantees <-- like that which more higher level languages do? 01:17:03 (because most large buffers won't be giant pointer buffers) 01:17:17 anyway what, apart from reference counting could they usefully provide in C++ 01:17:17 you can construct a shared_ptr from a T*, or copy-construct it from another shared_ptr 01:17:35 Vorpal: They basically are reference counting... 01:17:39 it records somewhere the number of shared_ptr's holding that particular T* 01:17:43 pikhq, " they aren't always reference counted" 01:17:47 pikhq, so he is wrong then? 01:17:49 the destructor for a shared_ptr decrements the count 01:17:52 let me finish 01:17:54 god 01:17:55 Vorpal: No, he's merely being more accurate. 01:18:00 hm okay 01:18:03 when it drops to 0, it calls delete on the original pointer 01:18:04 anyway 01:18:08 that's a reference-counted smart pointer 01:18:12 but you can also make other kinds 01:18:20 i guess by "C++" most people mean "C with whatever C++ features i feel like understanding" -- which is actually fine so long as you don't have to read anyone elses code 01:18:26 kmc: such as? 01:18:30 like unique pointers 01:18:55 Yeah. They also can be used to give you guarantees like "delete this when it falls out of scope". 01:18:58 kmc: How do you catch a unique pointer? 01:18:59 kmc, how does it keep track of shared_ptr though? What if I pass a function a reference to a shared_ptr? Or are they small enough that you usually pass by value and invoke copy constructors all over the place? 01:19:07 A: Unique up on it 01:19:08 Vorpal: the latter 01:19:27 Vorpal: the compiled representation of a shared_ptr is probably the same as a T* 01:19:39 dunno 01:19:42 kmc, plus a reference count surely? 01:19:44 the reference counting is done in some global hidden structure 01:19:49 ah... 01:19:51 no, the reference count has to ba global 01:19:52 well 01:19:54 kmc, so are they thread safe? 01:20:03 if each shared_ptr had their own count, then they would all have a count of 1... 01:20:07 it should be in the structure that is getting counted no? 01:20:12 madbr: you can build those too 01:20:15 "intrusive shared pointers" 01:20:22 more programmer effort, somewhat more efficient 01:20:39 Vorpal: I don't know about the thread saftey guarantees of Boost's or C++11's implementations of this idea 01:20:45 doing it without having it in the structure being counted sounds very much like a kludge 01:20:50 in general yes, you can make a thread-safe shared pointer 01:20:58 doesn't seem like a kludge to me, really 01:21:07 only a little bit 01:21:13 At least, no more so than anything else in C++. 01:21:20 pikhq, touche 01:21:27 thread-safe shared pointer? what, by locking a mutex to it every time you manipulate it? :D 01:21:56 madbr: well first of all, it would only be when you create/destroy a shared_ptr, not dereference one 01:22:00 madbr, implementing an atomic counter isn't that hard targeting most ISAs 01:22:15 implementing a hash table of atomic counts is harder 01:22:20 but still quite doable 01:22:29 why a hash table? 01:22:35 given that this is a piece of core library code which is hopefully not re-implemented in every project 01:22:38 oh right, if it doesn't have anything except the pointer 01:22:39 though knowing C and C++, it likely is 01:22:44 a pointer pair seems better 01:22:46 Vorpal: you need a map from T* to reference count 01:23:03 Vorpal: pointer to T and also pointer to its count location in the table? 01:23:04 you'd need atomic count+value no? 01:23:05 yeah maybe 01:23:07 i don't know how it's done 01:23:26 You could also maybe use a per-thread count for some things. 01:23:46 otherwise your count may be accurate but it can still change whenever no? :D 01:23:54 madbr, x86 provides atomic increment/decrement iirc. And there is always CAS 01:24:14 you need atomic [inc/dec PLUS value read/write] 01:24:17 I *think* 01:24:27 of course if they are in a table, that is going to play hell with the cache line ownership between the CPUs 01:24:30 shachaf: yeah 01:24:57 i think the Linux kernel uses per-CPU reference counting for some objects 01:25:15 don't remember the exact semantics 01:25:16 the linux kernel uses a lot of snazzy data structures 01:25:34 kmc: It's a fun performance issue when you have per-thread counters for something (not referece counts, just integers) and you put them all in one array, so that each thread does arr[tid]++; 01:25:54 shachaf, that is just going to kill the performance XD 01:25:56 Vorpal: Well, yes. A kernel is fundamentally no more than a pile of allocators and schedulers. :) 01:26:24 pikhq, a lot of device drivers too (unless a micro kernel, in which case it is just some device drivers) 01:28:28 how real time are real time OSes these days? 01:28:43 uh, completely? 01:29:03 well, what latency can you get :D 01:29:08 ok 01:29:10 that is a different question 01:29:18 1ms? 100us? 10us? :D 01:29:19 madbr, you misunderstood the meaning of a real time OS 01:29:26 "real time" does not mean "super low latency" necessarily 01:29:30 it means that you care what the latency is 01:29:40 you can have a "hard real time" system where the latency bound is 60 seconds 01:29:50 it's still hard real time because if you miss that deadline, the plane blows up or whatever 01:29:54 It's not all that /likely/, but it fits the definition :) 01:29:59 i think it is pretty likely 01:30:02 "A key characteristic of an RTOS is the level of its consistency concerning the amount of time it takes to accept and complete an application's task;" 01:30:04 planes take a while to blow up 01:30:11 that's latency 01:30:14 it means that you can work out guarantees that the latency running a specific set of software on it will be within specific limits 01:30:21 yes, it is about predictable and guaranteed latency bounds 01:30:27 madbr: Yes, CONSISTENCY, not BREVITY. 01:31:30 hi Gregor 01:31:33 I confused you with Vorpal 01:31:42 what 01:31:42 but then if your guaranteed time is 100ms... that's still not so cool :D 01:32:00 that depends on the application 01:32:06 you can have a "hard real time" system where the latency bound is 60 seconds <-- I'd hate to draw the timing diagram for that, given that most other stuff will probably be in the millisecond range 01:32:09 you really do not seem to be getting this idea 01:32:13 shachaf: Capital letter, five more letters. 01:32:28 Gregor: Right. 01:32:29 but yeah was asking for irl values 01:32:35 * Vorpal is now known as Vergor 01:32:40 oops 01:32:43 * Vorpal is now known as Vregor 01:32:50 I wonder if capital letters are "actually" easy to distinguish without reading them. 01:33:06 If you gave someone who can't read English a text with capital and lower-case letters, would they be able to pick out the capitals? 01:33:23 Capital thorn is smaller than lowercase thorn! 8-D 01:33:36 shachaf, well the rest of the word shape is different too, r is half the height of l 01:34:03 shachaf, if they know the latin script, sure? 01:34:04 kmc: just say that you don't know the values and don't care, jeez 01:34:39 madbr, your question made no sense. 01:34:43 madbr: Come on, don't troll kmc. :-( 01:35:05 it's dumb that you keep badgering us over t his 01:35:14 when it's probably plastered all over the front page of anyone marketing a RTOS 01:35:26 madbr, most real time systems are probably slower than your average PC in average response time. But the thing is, you don't know the maximum response time on your OS. It might suddenly swap trash for example 01:35:39 shachaf: at least I haven't still got Virgil in here ;) 01:37:43 hm 01:37:54 seems more for military usage then yeah 01:38:04 and planes 01:38:19 madbr, your car probably contains at least one if it isn't too old 01:38:32 The ABS brakes for a start 01:38:39 any ESP system 01:38:41 mhm 01:38:53 because if those took too long. Yeah would be bad 01:38:59 realtime control systems outnumber "computers" by a huge factor 01:39:05 not all of them use an "operating system" though 01:39:18 many are just simple microcontrollers running a single program at a deterministic speed 01:39:19 kmc, control systems in general outnumber what we normally think of as computers 01:39:26 yeah 01:39:44 true 01:39:54 dishwasher, freezer, TV, washing machine. Doubt any of those run RTOS. 01:40:04 or well maybe they though (not the TV though) 01:40:13 s/they/they do/ 01:40:28 most digital TVs run Linux 01:40:29 no idea what they put in TVs these days 01:40:41 as did set top boxes during the analogue->digital transition 01:40:51 vxworks is probably convenient to put in a dishwasher even if you don't use the real time properties. 01:40:58 either that or it runs on bare metal 01:41:07 in which case it is most likely not real time in any way 01:41:18 huh? 01:41:26 that's about as real time as it gets. 01:41:27 hm? 01:41:32 if you're the only program running on the chip... 01:41:49 kmc, you have to design that program so you can be sure it won't ever enter an extra long loop though 01:41:51 and the chip has no cache and out of order execution? 01:41:53 otherwise it isn't real time 01:41:59 Vorpal: sure 01:42:09 vorpal: some people do that afaik :D 01:42:14 or you do everything time sensitive in a timer interrupt 01:42:19 madbr, sure, I done it at university 01:42:20 but yeah 01:42:27 using vxworks was much easier though 01:42:30 simple microcontrollers give you totally deterministic execution 01:42:34 no cache, no out of order execution 01:42:38 since then you knew the scheduler would prioritise the right thing 01:42:43 each instruction takes a known number of clock cycles, always 01:42:49 without a scheduler, well you have to get everything perfectly right 01:42:56 kmc: ie too long :D 01:43:04 madbr, not really 01:43:16 madbr, they work fine for what they are designed for 01:43:26 well, not too long for a microcontroller application where there's little data to crunch through 01:43:33 madbr: that's fucking annoying, stop asserting that things are "too slow" without knowing what the application is 01:43:43 you strike me as one of those people who programs in C because it means your e-penis is so big 01:43:49 kmc, he is obviously trolling you 01:43:52 yeah 01:44:06 don't feed the troll (I know that can be hard) 01:44:22 kmc: don't be silly. He obviously writes direct to machine code. In binary. With butterflies. 01:44:40 with e-penis 01:44:48 eheh 01:44:48 soundnfury, you make me laugh. He loads customised microcode into the processor 01:45:03 i shit trains, what now 01:45:05 don't be silly, he doesn't use processors with microcode, they're "too slow" 01:45:13 XD 01:45:25 hardwired logic 4 lyfe 01:45:38 it's the kind of system that doesn't have cache miss because essentially every memory access is a cache miss :D 01:45:42 Why am I still looking at Tcl instead of Lisp? 01:45:48 so you have deterministic time 01:45:50 TTL logic is kind of fun. 01:46:00 madbr: no, it's more like every memory access is a cache *hit* 01:46:05 AVR microcontrollers have all SRAM 01:46:07 What about time-loop logic? 01:46:10 or it has like 1k ram so it doesn't have cache misses yeah :D 01:46:12 kmc, hm do AVR processors even have a pipeline? 01:46:19 in fact there's not much distinction between registers and RAM 01:46:25 I guess some might have a 2 stage pipeline or something simple like that 01:46:44 Vorpal: isn't "TTL logic" a PIN-number-ism? 01:46:45 the registers are just the first n locations in RAM, they have a special addressing mode but show up as normal memory too 01:46:50 soundnfury: oh god 01:46:52 soundnfury, yeah and? 01:47:00 that is the dumbest thing to care about 01:47:13 kmc: what can I say? I'm a pedantic dickweed 01:47:19 soundnfury, it is also a CD disc thing. It is not quite a Personal PIN Number-ism though 01:47:24 saying "TTL is kind of fun" is more ambiguous and awkward 01:47:29 language exists to serve the needs of communication 01:47:35 not to satisfy the arbitrary rules of pedantic dickweeds 01:47:38 Vorpal: my eyes my eyes it burns 01:47:41 do you also object to "all OK"? 01:47:41 Ah, kmc. 01:47:49 the wires very quickly ends up being tricky to keep track of though 01:48:10 I remember doing a binary->2 digit BCD converter in a lab at university 01:48:11 kmc: the rules aren't arbitrary, they exist to serve the needs of communication 01:48:23 after all OK might be (nobody's quite sure) an initialism for "oll korrect", an intentional misspelling of "all correct" 01:48:24 the mess of wires, aiee 01:48:27 so "all OK" is ambiguous 01:48:31 -!- ais523 has quit. 01:48:31 er redundant 01:48:33 just like "ATM machine" 01:48:35 am i right 01:48:45 kmc: Oh no! 01:48:57 We don't *know* whether it's redundant or not! 01:49:05 It's, like, quantum pedantry, man. 01:49:11 kmc: who cares? Everyone calls it a hole-in-the-wall anyway :p 01:49:14 soundnfury, I have a compact CD disc here 01:49:26 itt: nerds saying the things nerds always say 01:49:33 soundnfury, with that I mean it is one of those mini-sized ones 01:49:48 Vorpal: you mean a minidisc? 01:49:57 soundnfury, is that the name of them? Maybe 01:50:04 "n order to maximize performance and parallelism, the AVR uses a Harvard architecture – with 01:50:08 separate memories and buses for program and data. Instructions in the program memory are 01:50:11 it fits into the inner depression in the CD reader 01:50:12 executed with a single level pipelining. 01:50:16 or one of those silly "singles" disks that play in a normal CD player? 01:50:21 sorry for spam, failed copying from pdf 01:50:22 those are fscking pointless 01:50:24 kmc, hm nice 01:50:34 and yeah I know it uses Harvard 01:50:37 so yeah, it's a 2 stage fetch-execute pipeline 01:50:40 a lot of microcontrollers do 01:50:46 well you can also load data from program memory 01:50:52 and you can write to program memory using special instructions 01:50:52 PIC and AVR do at least 01:50:55 everything uses either hard or soft harvard these days 01:51:02 I really have no idea about any other micro controller architectures 01:51:06 which ones are there even 01:51:08 #Fight fiercely, Harvard, fight fight fight! 01:51:11 8051 is very popular 01:51:19 kmc, which ISA is that? 01:51:21 ARM is used as a microcontroller too 01:51:29 Vorpal: it's, uh, the 8051 ISA? 01:51:32 kmc: ah yeah, saw one of those 01:51:34 uh okay 01:51:49 I think for low-end applications the Z80 still gets used as a microcontroller 01:51:49 68k is used as a microcontroller too 01:51:50 kmc, hm ARM really has a huge span 01:51:54 tend to quite faster too 01:51:57 soundnfury, like in my graph calculator 01:52:02 and MIPS and PPC implementations 01:52:04 though that is like 12 years old now 01:52:11 with nice features like fast multipliers 01:52:12 awesome battery time though 01:52:16 you can synthesize a PPC chip on a higher end FPGA 01:52:26 4xAAA lasts several years in it 01:52:27 Vorpal: yeah, ARM has a huge span 01:52:42 it's a licensed ISA with many implementations 01:52:45 Vorpal: graphical calculators are shoite tho 01:52:58 kmc, which ARM ISA are they using for microcontrollers? Not ARM7 I guess 01:53:03 beats me 01:53:07 no more like arm11 01:53:23 madbr, stop trolling by making up stuff 01:53:31 let me look it up 01:54:00 madbr, the last version is 8 01:54:04 there is no ARM11 01:54:27 (and there are no products based on version 8 yet) 01:54:37 soundnfury, hm, they work well for their intended purpose though 01:54:38 afaik arm11 is the raspberry pi's processor and has armv6 instruction set but that's probably fairly higher end and there are probably much more limited ones 01:54:51 yeah it's confusing 01:55:00 kmc: Hey, "PowerPC computing" is also redundant. 01:55:20 shachaf, that C stands for computing? 01:55:22 http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/index.php 01:55:23 haha 01:55:32 Hrrrng, shachaf: that is NOT redundant. 01:55:48 how about "ARM machine" 01:55:48 That's like when people say that "SMS message" is redundant because the 'M' stands for messaging. 01:55:59 So is "ARM Machine"! 01:56:06 Aw. 01:56:07 yep 01:56:16 But the C in PowerPC stands for computing ,__, 01:56:29 “ARM machine†I would be more agreeable to. Also the 'C' in PowerPC surely stands for comput/er/? 01:56:33 ARM ATM Machine 01:56:36 Gregor, uh, Short SMS Service would be redundant technically 01:56:39 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 01:56:41 It doesn't 01:56:44 Vorpal: Yes, that would be. 01:56:46 I learned that yesterday. 01:56:47 though I think the interpretation would be rather different actually 01:56:48 Vorpal: But "SMS message" is not. 01:56:52 Lumpio-: Hm. 01:56:54 this is 01:56:56 Gregor, of course 01:56:56 the dumbest thing 01:56:57 I don't see what's redundant about Short Messaging Service message at all. 01:56:57 to care about 01:57:10 The service is for short messaging, and you have a message through it. 01:57:12 kmc: Agreed! 01:57:25 I like the new automatic ATM machines 01:57:30 pikhq, "Short SMS Service" is redundant. 01:57:34 Lumpio-: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHA FUNNAY JOKE 01:57:34 that was the point 01:57:36 * shachaf sends pikhq a short SMS message. 01:57:47 it's not like 20 people have already made that joke in the past 5 min 01:57:56 I'M ON FIRE 01:58:00 I know. 01:58:01 LET'S ALL USE ACRONYMS REDUNDANTLY GUYS, ON PURPOSE 01:58:02 yawn 01:58:06 IT'S IRONY 01:58:10 I.R.O.N.Y. 01:58:13 RAS syndrome day 01:58:23 Lumpio-, pay royalties. I started it with the compact CD disc (minidisc) 01:58:26 fuckinfg nerds 01:58:31 i should get drunk 01:58:33 kmc: Have you filed with the Department of Redundancy Department? 01:58:37 surfin the web on my pc computer 01:58:41 instead i'm going to eat a pizza 01:58:51 >joins #esoteric >complains about nerds 01:58:52 kmc: Hey, I wish I had a pizza right now. 01:58:58 pikhq, You meant the Redundant Department of Redundancy Department? 01:59:19 kmc: Is your pizza vegetarian? 01:59:31 Lumpio-: hey, i like interesting nerd conversations 01:59:32 veggie pizza is nice 01:59:39 not Standard Nerd Conversation #15 01:59:51 next up: i don't care about sports and I want you to know this 01:59:52 it has tons of nice things on it 01:59:54 $relevant_xkcd 01:59:59 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120712.gif 02:00:09 * pikhq actually watches football 02:00:14 the issue with pizzas is that too many seem to contain tomatoes. Sure there are those without, but I would say that the majority of pizzas found over here contain tomatoes 02:00:30 don't know if it is the same elsewhere 02:00:38 how is that an issue 02:00:41 itidus21: please weigh in regarding pizzas and tomatoes 02:00:48 Vorpal: Here, pizza *typically* only contains tomato sauce. 02:00:51 madbr, because I don't like tomato? 02:01:02 ahah then you're screwed yes 02:01:02 tomatoes* 02:01:04 shachaf: I think I'll get a prosciutto calzone, actually. So, no. 02:01:16 I suppose some pizzas contain sun-dried tomatoes, but those aren't the "typical" ones. 02:01:33 kmc: I recommend a vegetarian pizza.r 02:01:38 yeah 02:01:41 i probably should get one 02:01:43 to be a good person 02:01:55 i don't like "veggie pizza" generally, but i do like (say) mushrooms and pineapples 02:01:57 next up: i don't care about sports and I want you to know this <-- oh I care about some sports 02:02:00 also nice: spicy chicken, mexican 02:02:02 mostly esports 02:02:08 * shachaf doesn't like "veggie pizza" 02:02:11 don't really care about physical sports though 02:02:17 depends on the kind of veggies it has 02:02:28 onions, olives => yum 02:02:54 There are a lot of vegetables that I don't like that much, for being vegetarian. 02:03:00 i dislike onions and, because this is the internet, my opinion of onions is also an objectively true fact 02:03:00 And a few that I really hate. 02:03:02 Like bell peppers. 02:03:11 kmc, what about garlic? 02:03:14 i love garlic 02:03:16 Bell peppers = the devil 02:03:18 can't get enough garlic 02:03:20 kmc, good for you 02:03:20 shachaf: what about hot peppers? :D 02:03:29 jalapeno poppers 02:03:29 Friggin' bell peppers. They're peppers with too little flavor! 02:03:31 i'm told that shallots are halfway between onion and garlic 02:03:34 'Specially the green ones. 02:03:37 madbr: Less devil than bell. 02:03:38 but i don't have a strong opinion of them yet 02:03:40 Jerks, not even ripe. 02:03:45 kmc, as I don't have to kill you know due to taking taste way too seriously (as is the tradition on the internet) 02:03:54 pikhq: Too *little*? 02:04:07 pikhq: Their flavor -- and smell -- and texture -- makes me want to vomit. 02:04:08 shachaf: Why would you want peppers without capsaicin? 02:04:12 kmc: if you think we're bad, try reading comp.lang.c 02:04:15 shachaf: hah you remind me of one guy I met 02:04:18 and ask them about the declaration of main 02:04:23 haha 02:04:25 I don't really like too much pepper 02:04:28 was vegan, didn't like salad 02:04:31 oh and see if you can fit in a cast of the return value of malloc while you're at it 02:04:32 shachaf: do you like szechuan peppercorn? 02:04:37 a bit of traditional black pepper is enough for me 02:04:38 shachaf: Also: green bell peppers are literally unripe. This is just evil. 02:04:57 hmm 02:05:04 his diet consisted of veggie burgers, KFC potato wedges, chips and various other crunchies and sugary things 02:05:12 pikhq, I don't really go above black pepper when it comes to pepper 02:05:48 Vorpal: What a bland existence. 02:05:53 a pizza base as an ingredient works with just about everything 02:05:54 I buy those pots of minced chili at the corner store 02:05:57 pikhq, eh, I add more garlic instead 02:06:04 and then I put that shit on everything 02:06:06 pikhq, you can't have too much garlic 02:06:08 Vorpal: Okay, that's at least respectable. 02:06:27 main(argc, argv) char **argv; { return 0; } 02:06:28 ♥ garlic 02:06:32 today I had chicken nuggets with honey and chili paste 02:06:34 kmc: I don't know. 02:06:51 shachaf: do you know about it? 02:06:56 pikhq, I ate at an Indian restaurant once (and I ordered extra mild). I'm never going to eat at an Indian restaurant again! 02:07:01 way too spicy 02:07:01 pikhq: Green bell peppers, red bell peppers, yellow, orange, blue, I don't care. 02:07:03 vorpal: what 02:07:11 Vorpal: The *mild* was too spicy? 02:07:15 pikhq, yes 02:07:19 :O 02:07:19 on pizzas, i generally go for olives, mushrooms, anchovies, cows, pigs, chickens 02:07:19 shachaf: They're still in a shitty place, mind you. 02:07:23 shachaf: Sans capsaicin. 02:07:31 Vorpal: That's sad. 02:07:45 pikhq, sure it tasted good, but it played hell with my mouth 02:08:00 you need the antidote 02:08:01 i tend to assume a pizza will have a base of tomato, garlic and cheese, however, when my brother cooked vegan pizzas i found that you can taste the ingredients more without the cheese 02:08:09 madbr, ? 02:08:12 What, do you guys do a British-style "boil the flavor out" diet? :P 02:08:12 kmc: I don't know. 02:08:18 indians have that crazy yougurt drink 02:08:31 absorbs capsaicin 02:08:45 Yeah, that's pretty good stuff. 02:08:50 madbr, yeah I used that. Too bad I don't really like yougurt though. 02:08:58 Heathen! 02:09:14 Tomato, yougurt and fish. Those are the mostly random things I really hate eating. 02:09:18 you need to get good yogurt, not cheap crap 02:09:20 I suppose next you'll tell me you don't like bacon. 02:09:26 pikhq, oh I love bacon 02:09:39 Mmm, cured pig-meats. 02:09:41 i eat fish practically every day 02:09:49 madbr: lassi? 02:09:54 there's a large difference between a good yogurt brand and whatever cheap dental paste you can find 02:09:55 mango lassi is fucking amazing 02:09:58 kmc: yes 02:10:02 also want to try bhang lassi sometime 02:10:12 speaking of dental paste. I forgot mint 02:10:17 I really don't like mint either 02:11:38 let me guess, you don't like beer either? :D 02:11:44 or coffee? :D 02:11:45 madbr, I'm a teetotaller 02:11:56 cinnamon I have a slight negative opinion on. It doesn't taste good, but it is editable. 02:12:05 cilantro? 02:12:07 Sickening. 02:12:18 as for coffee, the taste is okay, but eh, I can stay awake anyway 02:12:33 cilantro? no clue what that is. Google Translate time 02:12:40 aka coriander leaves 02:12:44 oh right 02:12:55 madbr, no opinion either way 02:13:28 Guess you're not one of the unfortunate people who have a gene making it taste like soap, then. 02:13:34 thai food? :D 02:13:52 madbr: "Yes please." 02:13:55 pikhq, I honestly don't know if I ever eaten coriander though. 02:14:01 madbr, never tried 02:14:15 I like Chinese restaurants though 02:14:26 viet? 02:14:29 Vorpal: Thai is profoundly spicy. 02:14:29 and Italian ones 02:14:39 pikhq, I would guess the answer is "no" then 02:14:41 madbr, huh? 02:14:46 vietnamese 02:14:50 no idea 02:14:55 never tried 02:14:58 -!- comex has joined. 02:15:05 Also peanutty in some cases... 02:15:21 peanuts aren't used a lot in Sweden really 02:15:22 haven't tried extremely hot thai yet 02:15:29 we see it as something rather American 02:15:37 To be fair, it is. 02:15:42 We love our peanuts. 02:15:42 peanut butter is very definitely regarded as an American thing over here 02:15:47 Especially peanut butter. 02:15:51 I think it tastes meh. Editable sure, but what is the point 02:16:07 vorpal: makes a good sauce for skewers :D 02:16:13 Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. 02:16:16 madbr, Parse Error 02:16:31 I have no idea what you are talking about 02:16:37 pikhq, also you go crazy with apple pies 02:16:45 peanut butter + thai hot sauce + some jalapenos 02:16:46 Vorpal: Yes. They are delicious. 02:17:09 (the thai hot and really sweet sauce) 02:17:28 + maybe some extra garlic if the thai hot sweet sauce doesn't already have tons 02:18:03 the Swedish image of a stereotypical American: eats peanut butter, apple pies and hamburgers. Drives an oversized car and drives it even if he is just going like 4 houses away from home. Is most likely overweight. Has a gun without being a hunter. 02:18:19 make some meat cubes, let that marinate in the sauce, put the cubes on some skewers (ie make kebabs), put on barbecue 02:18:25 pikhq, how accurate is it? 02:18:31 Vorpal: Ish. 02:18:37 vorpal, i would guess thats probably true on average 02:18:42 Vorpal: No American eats peanut butter straight, for one... 02:18:42 keep some of the sauce for putting on the kebabs after cooking 02:18:44 itidus21, that is kind of sad 02:18:49 im not american 02:18:51 im just guessing 02:18:53 pikhq, what do you mean "straight"? 02:18:59 sure I meant on toast or such 02:19:04 possibly on the apple pie 02:19:05 Vorpal: Ah. 02:19:06 wouldn't surprise me 02:19:12 Peanut butter on toast is a common thing. 02:19:19 apple pie is american? 02:19:19 if not, you should try peanut butter on apple pie 02:19:21 More common is as part of a sandwich, or as an ingredient. 02:19:29 Apple pie is typically done with ice cream. 02:19:30 shachaf: szeuchan peppercorn produces a tingly sensation that is said to be like licking a 9 volt battery 02:19:30 Vorpal: american restaurants enjoy releasing burgers designed to give health problems :D 02:19:35 madbr, yes definitely. Sure it happens elsewhere. But over there it is a constant state 02:19:36 it's totally unlike spicy peppers or pretty much anything else 02:19:43 Hamburgers are very common. 02:19:50 Like, that *is* the stereotypical meal. 02:19:52 i mean.. like.. monster burgers 02:19:56 itidus21: yes it's a conspiracy by the man that you're fat 02:20:06 it couldn't possibly be that the restaurants are just producing what people want to eat 02:20:13 Vorpal: Nearly all US cars are probably oversized by your standards. 02:20:22 -!- azaq23 has joined. 02:20:33 i have eaten scoops of peanut butter out of the jar 02:20:33 I'm not sure I like szechuan pepper 02:20:35 kmc: its a pleasant coincedence.. 02:20:39 pikhq, I would say we have a large car, it being a station wagon. But it is small compared to the american ones 02:20:42 let me find an image 02:20:43 kmc: I've never licked a 9-volt battery. 02:20:45 it's kinda like flavoring stuff with cedar fruit 02:20:49 Vorpal: We wouldn't drive somewhere actually that close, but we would probably drive distances you'd consider walking distance just because it's not sane to walk most places. 02:20:55 people want to eat satirically unhealthy burgers 02:20:59 Vorpal: Statistically, we are fairly likely to be overweight. 02:21:08 burgers aren't too bad 02:21:13 it's the cola that kills you 02:21:18 pikhq, this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Fiat_Marea_Weekend_front_20090329.jpg 02:21:21 Vorpal: And the gun ownership thing is mostly rural areas or parts of the South. 02:21:22 pikhq, do you consider that large? 02:21:25 "As many fast-food chains introduce healthier fare amid fears of being sued, Hardee’s is bucking the trend, serving up a megaburger with 1,420 calories and 107 grams of fat." 02:21:32 isn't the number of calories you consume far more important than the particular composition of the food? 02:21:40 i mean if you ate 20 "healthy" burgers t hat would be pretty bad too 02:21:42 Vorpal: Small-to-average. 02:21:45 The "Monster Thickburger" — two 1/3-pound slabs of Angus beef, four strips of bacon, three slices of cheese and mayonnaise on a buttered sesame seed bun — sells alone for $5.49, $7.09 with fries and a soda. 02:22:02 pikhq, I would consider it large. Especially when I reverse it into a parking slot. 02:22:09 and yeah 02:22:12 non-diet soda is just dumb 02:22:18 learn to like diet soda taste, or drink something else 02:22:19 kmc: yeah but just compare that to the soft drink tubs that comes with them 02:22:29 isn't the number of calories you consume far more important than the particular composition of the food? <-- not really iirc 02:22:30 soft drinks suck 02:22:41 you want a bit of everything and not too much of anything 02:22:46 they are the worst cheap industrial crap 02:22:48 and some healthy exercise as well 02:23:22 drink pepsi in restaurants, whatever, they need a profit margin after all 02:23:26 Vorpal: We have tons of people driving fairly *large* pickup trucks. 02:23:31 madbr, I drink water in there 02:23:32 drink pepsi at home, are you crazy? 02:23:42 Vorpal: Not because they actually use it. But because they just want a giant vehicle. 02:23:43 and i think some places have these deals that if you can eat the whole meal you can have it for free (but i admit its all a bit satirical) 02:23:47 why do people do carbonated drinks. They mess up my stomach 02:23:54 and it doesn't add to the taste 02:24:09 advertisement 02:24:30 pikhq: it's a prisoner's dilemma, if you are driving a massive car and get into a collision with someone driving a less massive car, you will do better 02:24:32 I think at some point coke or pepsi tried doing less ads, and the sales fell 02:24:47 and we can't stop driving so many cars and having so many collisions because it's The American Way 02:24:48 pikhq, my parents actually have a reason to own a station wagon. My mom is a garden nerd. That car can take 15 x 50 kg bags of earth or manure 02:25:07 god forbid we should make transportation the responsibility of trained experts rather than every drunken idiot 02:25:15 pikhq, would likely have had a smaller car if it wasn't for that 02:25:33 kmc, your driving test is a joke 02:25:40 my driving test? 02:25:43 * kmc doesn't have a driving test 02:25:45 no the US one 02:25:47 Vorpal: European small vehicles literally don't sell in the US. 02:25:52 and US car safety regulations the same 02:25:54 Vorpal: There's not a US driving test. 02:25:54 Vorpal: there isn't a "US driving test" 02:26:02 every state has their own test and procedures for granting licenses 02:26:02 Vorpal: There's 50 driving tests. 02:26:03 right 02:26:08 most of them are jokes 02:26:09 pikhq: probably at least 52 02:26:10 Just 50? 02:26:11 from what I heard 02:26:14 kmc: Ah, duh. 02:26:25 DC, Puerto Rico, et al. 02:26:42 I mean come on, you don't regulate the maximum light emitted from the half-light (or whatever you call that in English) 02:26:49 In the US Virgin Islands they drive on the left side of the road. 02:26:52 federalism isn't quite dead, it's just that now the states handle whatever the federal government doesn't want to do, rather than having some actual soverignty 02:26:58 shachaf: really? 02:26:58 from what I read your car headlamp rules are a joke compared to EU 02:27:07 kmc: Well, at least on the one island I was on. 02:27:12 read the WP article about car headlamps 02:27:12 there are federal car standards and state ones as well 02:27:20 for example california is famous for more strict emissions standards 02:27:28 shachaf: Wikipedia confirms it 02:27:44 pikhq, ^ 02:27:54 Vorpal: Yes, our licensing and regulations are lax in general. 02:27:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:28:10 Vorpal: In part because you basically can't hold down a job without a vehicle. 02:28:21 pikhq, they were overly strict before. Only permitting round ones from like the 1950s to the 1970s or so iirc 02:28:24 except in certain areas 02:28:28 ^ pikhq 02:28:32 kmc: Yes. 02:28:37 and no smooth glass in front to reduce areodynamic drag 02:28:45 what were you guys thinking? 02:29:00 Vorpal: Protectionism, of course. 02:29:12 pikhq, huh? 02:29:14 If it's impossible to sell a European vehicle in the US, that protects the US car industry! 02:29:16 gotta compete with the wily Japanese 02:29:20 ... Yes, this is a mindset. 02:29:25 pikhq, they just made slight modifications 02:29:36 You'll note that this didn't actually work out too well. :) 02:29:41 indeed 02:29:55 turns out that without competition, they made shit cars! 02:30:05 and you use (used?) your own voltage standards for the car headlamps 02:30:19 12.8 instead of 12 V iirc 02:30:22 or something like that 02:31:02 the one thing I don't get is 50 vs 60 hz hdtv 02:31:07 "The first dual-filament halogen bulb (to produce a low and a high beam with only one bulb), the H4, was released in 1971 and quickly became the predominant headlamp bulb throughout the world except in the United States, where the H4 is still not legal for automotive use. In 1992, the Americans created their own standard for a bulb called HB2/9003, almost identical to H4 except with more stringent const 02:31:08 raints on filament geometry and positional variance, and power consumption and light output expressed at the U.S. test voltage of 12.8V." 02:31:15 madbr, hm? 02:31:32 madbr: That's just hysterical raisins. 02:31:41 madbr, what are you talking about? 02:31:56 why is there more than 1 hdtv standard 02:32:01 the vertical refresh rate? 02:32:01 Vorpal: Some places use 1080i50, others use 1080i60. 02:32:04 Yes. 02:32:21 I thought TV used like 24 or 30 FPS 02:32:21 so ridiculous 02:32:26 aha no 02:32:32 well the specs for broadcast TV are completely different in USA vs elsewhere 02:32:35 it's not just framerate 02:32:38 Vorpal: 50/60 Hz. 02:32:46 Vorpal: NTSC (US and some other places) uses 29.97 FPS 02:32:52 PAL (most of Europe) uses 25 FPS 02:32:55 most film uses 24 02:32:58 pikhq, that much? Aren't movies generally 24 FPS? 02:32:58 60 fields per second 02:33:05 Vorpal: Yes. 02:33:07 interlaced half-frames 02:33:10 pikhq, how do you even properly scale that when broadcasting TV? 02:33:25 Vorpal: In Europe, they speed up the film. 02:33:26 tbh I call it 50 and 60 fps 02:33:26 I mean, when airing a movie 02:33:47 yeah, 24 Hz to 25 Hz is done by speeding up and adjusting audio pitch 02:33:48 you could say it's only half the lines but I think it's still a frame 02:33:48 Vorpal: In the US, they use a pulldown pattern, so not all frames are shown for the exact same amount of time. 02:33:57 just that every other frame is offset by half a frame 02:33:58 pikhq, wouldn't that be jerky? 02:34:10 Vorpal: Slightly. It's hard to notice. 02:34:11 how relevant. 02:34:12 pikhq, what do DVD players do then on a typical PC? 02:34:22 it's something you can train yourself to notice and then be insufferable about 02:34:35 what really bugs me these days are the TVs that do frame interpolation 02:34:39 vorpal: they probably just randomly vsync 02:34:47 hah yeah 02:34:49 Vorpal: Deinterlace and inverse pulldown. Also ignore the pulldown pattern if it's soft pulldown. 02:34:58 kmc: Is "Television remote" redundant? 02:34:59 i was reading about an upcoming south park game based on LOTR, and they were talking about using pulldown pattern to convert the walk cycle from 24fps to 30fps or whatever it is 02:35:05 pikhq, sorry? 02:35:13 deinterlace I understood 02:35:13 30 FPS content looks "cheaper" than 24 FPS 02:35:14 the rest? 02:35:15 (soft pulldown is where the video is stored 24fps, but with instructions on how to render it in 30fps) 02:35:18 because video is cheaper than film 02:35:29 an arbitrary association which has become entrenched in the way we consume content 02:35:30 kmc, eh, I prefer 60 FPS, it looks smoother 02:35:33 Vorpal: Inverse pulldown is where you match the pulldown pattern and pull out the 24fps content. 02:35:45 so these interpolating TVs make everything look like a Mexican soap opera 02:35:56 (in the words of Jack Donaghy) 02:35:56 kmc, you can see the difference between watching a game on youtube and playing it yourself at 60 FPS, and I don't just mean the compression 02:35:57 kmc: Except shittier. 02:36:00 Vorpal: that's not what I mean 02:36:04 pikhq, ah 02:36:06 I'm not talking about which one looks better objectively 02:36:10 or even subjectively 02:36:15 vorpal: games were lucky 02:36:23 they started at 60 fps 02:36:24 I wouldn't actually care about the interpolation (much), except that they give you artifacts. 02:36:38 i'm talking about the association formed from having lots of low production quality content at 30+ FPS and lots of high-budget or "artsy" content at 24 FPS 02:36:38 madbr, you can easily go higher with most games though 02:36:40 so the "more frames = better" mentality set in 02:36:41 if the hardware can do it 02:36:47 madbr, anyway consoles generally do 30 FPS 02:36:49 james cameron also complained about this 02:36:50 on a computer, sure 02:37:01 vorpal: before 3d they did 60 fps 02:37:04 because 3D films don't really work at 24 FPS, but anything above looks "cheap" to at least some viewers 02:37:14 madbr, I know people who have 120 Hz monitors. Generally for usage with 3D glasses 02:37:30 Vorpal: Older consoles actually did 60fps, and emitted an invalid TV signal to do progressive scan at half the vertical resolution. 02:37:46 pikhq, how comes that worked at all? 02:37:48 also huh 02:37:57 SNES does progressive scan actually 02:38:07 kmc: Did you see Simon Marlow's concurrent and parallel Haskell slides? 02:38:13 I only ever played SNES in emulator 02:38:17 Because TVs aren't strict validating devices, they're just NTSC/PAL decoders driving a CRT. 02:38:24 essentially they just ignored all the bullshit timing you had to do to have the lines offset half the frames 02:38:47 and generated the same timing every frame 02:38:53 Yup. 02:39:02 kmc: They're good. 02:39:03 pikhq, surely you can't get 60 FPS on the TV from that though? 02:39:08 kmc: http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/slides/cadarache2012/ 02:39:09 Vorpal: Sure you can. 02:39:20 Vorpal: They're drawing 60 fields per second... 02:39:23 vorpal: well, TVs are 60 fps 02:39:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:39:42 but you offset your timing on half the frames 02:39:55 Vorpal: And if you've hacked the timing somewhat so they draw the lines of each field at the same place, you're basically doing 60 frames per second. 02:40:03 pikhq, wouldn't there be problems with the time the phosphor stayed lit between 60 FPS and 25 FPS (for PAL) 02:40:12 which gets you 480 lines instead of the real value of 240 lines 02:40:21 Vorpal: PAL systems did 50fps instead. 02:40:26 ah 02:40:30 pikhq, still 02:40:32 SNES etc were progressive scan so they actually do a 240 line picture 02:40:40 and you can see the black between the lines 02:40:41 Vorpal: And the answer is "yes". 02:40:44 what is the resolution of PAL then 02:40:53 pikhq, oh? So there were issues? 02:41:05 Vorpal: Just somewhat weird brightnesses, IIRC. 02:41:11 ah 02:41:21 Vorpal: It's not like drawing on the phosphor too often actually causes *major* issues. 02:41:31 fair enough 02:41:48 irl most tvs were so fuzzy it didn't really matter anyways :D 02:42:01 pikhq, what about it fading too slow when the screen changes though? Ghost images and such I mean 02:42:12 Older PAL consoles just did 240 lines... 02:42:12 madbr, hardware antialias! 02:42:30 afaik CRTs fade really fast actually 02:42:34 pikhq, and usual PAL is how many lines? 02:42:40 Vorpal: IIRC, the phosphor fades really fast. 02:42:54 so fast that most of the picture you see is actually just a residual image on your retina 02:42:55 then why does 25 FPS even work 02:43:03 that's how the light gun works 02:43:08 Vorpal: They're scanning it 50/60 times per second and interlacing because they needed to scan that fast to not blink. 02:43:12 madbr, ah right yes 02:43:28 right, forgot the interlacing 02:43:58 light gun watches for a change in brightness 02:44:05 pikhq, anyway I found CRT computer monitors painful to use at less than 75 Hz 02:44:14 and even then they are not nice to use 02:44:23 once that happens you know the timing and can figure out which pixel you've been aiming at :D 02:44:48 heh 02:45:06 Vorpal: PAL is usually 576i. 02:45:23 Real Programmers use an analog vector generator with a vector CRT 02:45:39 so doing 240p... right someone said they left black lines above 02:45:43 Yup. 02:46:05 what generation of consoles stopped doing this craziness? 02:46:28 ps2 i think 02:46:45 what is that in nintendo 02:46:54 gamecube? 02:46:58 I don't remember 02:47:04 had enough fillrate to render in like 640x480 :D 02:47:04 technically ps2 in nintendo is gamecube 02:47:13 yeah gamecube is interlaced 02:47:27 hm 02:47:36 Yeah, pretty sure it was PS2/GC/Xbox. 02:47:49 gamecube can do component out.. i had component out on mine... 02:47:51 did they go 30 FPS then too? 02:48:04 or wait I guess not all modern console games are 30 FPS, only most 02:48:09 Mostly, yeah. 02:48:13 but when i traded it in.. the bitch at that store treated it like garbage 02:48:17 pikhq, I would be surprising if fighting games weren't 60 FPS 02:48:23 surprised* 02:48:29 Vorpal: The screen's not 60 FPS, though. 02:48:33 pikhq, oh? 02:48:35 actually even PSX can do interlaced 02:48:39 but there's no point 02:48:39 It just redraws 60 times per second. 02:48:43 madbr, PSX? 02:48:48 play station 1 02:48:51 :D 02:48:54 PS1 you mean then? 02:49:02 its also known as psx for some reason 02:49:04 usually it's abreviated PSX 02:49:08 for some reason yeah 02:49:18 pikhq, what is the refresh rate for the screen then? 02:49:36 Vorpal: 60 Hz. 02:49:58 incidentally psone was a re-release of ps1/psx .. a pointless thing really 02:50:07 pikhq, doesn't that equate to 60 FPS max possible? 02:50:22 can't actually do anything new, just comes in a case which is cheaper to manufacture 02:50:38 Vorpal: But if you're actually drawing a standard TV signal you only get 60 fields per second. 02:50:39 iti: and probably combined all the chips together :D 02:51:04 pikhq, with a field you mean? 02:51:11 in fact I wonder if the snes can do interlace 02:51:42 pikhq, also which TV signal standard is this 02:51:55 Vorpal: You get the same amount of *motion* with 240p60 and 480i30, BTW. 02:52:11 uhu 02:52:19 It's not that you get only 30 full frames per second with 480i30. 02:52:19 pikhq, what do you mean with motion here 02:52:32 You get 60 frames with every other line chopped out. 02:52:38 I know what interlaced is yes 02:53:02 the US standard did 29.something right? 02:53:04 not 30 02:53:08 29.97 I think 02:53:17 _features_ of the psone as listed on wikipedia is: added protection against the use of modchips, a lack of the original PlayStation's parallel and serial ports, 02:53:19 maybe it is close enough 02:53:28 Yes, when we switched to color we divided the framerate by 1001 to prevent interference between the color signal and audio signal. 02:53:30 though over time you should run into some issues 02:53:33 and it's just some thing they introduced later to deal with some timing issue on some shitty TVs 02:53:39 Erm. Not 1001. 02:53:47 It's 30000/1001 frames per second, though. 02:54:14 madbr: No, it's color. 02:54:26 irl stuff like SNES probably generates like 29.9fps 02:54:29 also psone has an external power supply! 02:54:39 madbr: Part of the color signal would interfere with the audio if you stuck at 30fps. 02:54:46 since it actually only draws 524 lines per 2 frames instead of 525 lines 02:54:54 (IIRC) 02:54:58 pikhq, why didn't you just go PAL? 02:55:06 Vorpal: PAL didn't exist. 02:55:10 ah okay 02:55:38 PAL was invented to overcome NTSC's shortcomings. 02:55:49 I think there's even a 60hz version of pal 02:55:55 10 years after NTSC color came into being. 02:55:59 madbr: Yeah. Brazil uses it. 02:56:38 pikhq, then why didn't you switch 02:57:01 oh the N in NTSC stands for "national", how typical 02:57:02 how did pal work again 02:57:02 Vorpal: PAL was *invented* 10 years after NTSC color was *adopted*. 02:57:16 invert colors for every 2nd line or something like that no? 02:57:20 pikhq, fair enough, what did Europe do during those 10 years? 02:57:38 Black-and-white. 02:57:41 ah 02:57:54 Regular color broadcasts in Europe started in 1967. 02:58:02 (UK and West Germany, specifically) 02:58:23 anyway, how typical of US to put "national" in a name. It is like how the UK puts "Royal" in names 02:58:30 At this point, NTSC color was 14 years old. 03:00:09 pikhq, are the NTSC and PAL greyscale signals compatible? 03:00:11 I guess not 03:00:22 but why did they have separate systems there before then 03:00:42 Vorpal: Actually, the only differences are the framerates and the frequency allocation. 03:00:48 hm 03:00:54 there are only so many ways to do analog monochromatic TV 03:01:00 why did the framerates end up being different before? 03:01:15 Vorpal: different researchers working in different countries settled on different arbitrary choices 03:01:17 The framerates were based on the AC frequencies. 03:01:23 ah 03:01:29 pikhq, why was that important though 03:01:29 because if you don't sync to AC on an old analog tv the picture dances :D 03:01:36 was solved later on but still 03:01:39 heh 03:01:42 Vorpal: Because it was available as a cheap oscillator. 03:01:51 it ruined video forever? 03:02:04 (ie they figured how to do actually good power supplies :D) 03:02:47 madbr, switching? 03:02:52 dunn 03:02:53 o 03:03:39 also France had their own system right 03:03:41 forgot the name of it 03:03:56 secam 03:04:06 Vorpal: The only differences you can have with analog black-and-white video are refresh rates, frequency allocations, and whether a low signal is white or black... 03:04:09 essentially pal but with a different color scheme 03:04:18 ah 03:04:19 All of these have been different in different countries. 03:04:25 (FM color, alternating the color component on every line) 03:05:35 what is the format of the audio signal of PAL? Plain FM? 03:05:40 AM 03:05:47 really, heh 03:06:02 Vorpal: "Depends". 03:06:02 actually quadrature amplitude modulation or something 03:06:06 I would expect worse sound quality then 03:06:12 pikhq, oh? 03:06:18 Vorpal: There is not a single PAL OTA standard. 03:06:25 Vorpal: There are dozens. 03:06:26 with amplitude of modulation = saturation and phase of modulation = hue 03:06:33 pikhq, as used in Sweden 03:08:02 or, real part of the color signal = red - luminance and imaginary part of color signal = blue - luminance 03:08:03 I think 03:08:08 pikhq, thing is I many years ago built a radio receiver from a kit (circuit board and components provided, solder yourself kind of deal) and managed to get the audio of one of the Swedish TV channels when tweaking the tuning knob. I think it was an FM receiver. 03:08:13 Vorpal: Seems it was FM. 03:08:26 well that explains that 03:08:48 yeah TV audio is over FM 03:09:04 Hmm. Seems it was almost always FM. 03:09:11 madbr, you said it was "quadrature amplitude modulation or something" above :P 03:09:11 France used AM. 03:09:23 And positive video modulation... 03:09:37 quadrotor amplitude modulation 03:09:56 pikhq, meaning? 03:10:11 Vorpal: Low signals are white, high signals are black. 03:10:23 makes sense 03:10:31 it is probably the most natural way to do it 03:10:37 err wait I misread 03:10:43 it is NOT the most natural way to do it 03:10:49 The exact opposite of what's used in every other system that survived past the 50s. 03:10:55 pikhq, why would anyone do that, is there some technical advantage of it? 03:11:04 No technical advantage at all. 03:11:24 any technical disadvantage though? 03:11:27 vorpal: oh, QAM is for the color 03:11:29 Not that I know of. 03:11:32 french system has to be different 03:11:56 pikhq, I guess at least one of them needs to invert the signal controlling the power to the cathode ray though? 03:12:03 The UK also used to use positive modulation. 03:12:13 They shut off broadcasts on that signal ages ago though. 03:12:20 what was that called? 03:12:27 System A. 03:12:48 catchy 03:13:12 pikhq, which type of modulation needs to invert the signal compared to the cathode ray tube power though? 03:13:17 Vorpal: Dunno. 03:13:22 one would have to 03:13:25 inverted signals make sense no? 03:13:34 ie high signal = black 03:14:23 madbr, the case of high = no beam hitting the phosphor 03:14:29 maaaybe? 03:14:56 there's a good reason 03:15:02 oh? 03:15:05 if high signal = white 03:15:13 yes, makes sense 03:15:16 how do you correct for signal amplitude? 03:15:32 I'm not sure what you mean 03:15:49 suppose you receive the signal at half the amplitude you were expecting 03:16:12 madbr, I presume you need to use transistors or similar to drive the high voltage to the cathode ray anyway 03:16:22 like, you need 0 to 1 03:16:26 but you got 0 to 0.5 03:16:33 so you could just adjust the strength of it there 03:16:48 yeah but you need to guess the amplification factor 03:17:02 you know how TVs used to have all those knobs on the front 03:17:05 won't you need to do that in the other case too? 03:17:08 and you have to fiddle with them to get a good picture 03:17:11 no see 03:17:12 and yeah they used to have lot of knobs 03:17:18 if you make black the highest level 03:17:21 damn kids these days don't know about knobs 03:17:33 then at least once per scanline you have a sync 03:17:46 kmc, oh come on, I had a TV with lots of knobs until like 7 years ago. 03:17:49 kmc, from the 80s 03:17:53 (which is encoded as hyper-black) 03:18:08 madbr, surely you could just do a similar white sync instead? 03:18:10 madbr: You actually can tell what the amplitude is. 03:18:36 i remember one of my first tv's had sliders for colour, brightness, contrast 03:18:39 madbr: Because all signals are relative to the absolute low point of the sync signal, and you have a period of regular black after the sync. 03:18:39 vorpal: would be harder on TVs :D 03:18:56 and that you could make the pictures larger by turning up some of these sliders 03:19:20 i don't know a better word than slider 03:19:35 right, since you're guaranteed to have the lowest possible level at least once per scanline (sync), then you can easily guess the signal amplitude 03:19:41 if you use negative signaling 03:19:48 Colour [-----[]-----------] 03:20:19 yeah I remember our tv having settings for that, but you changed them digitally with the remote 03:20:29 and irl you could just make everything worse mostly 03:20:31 shachaf: good call on "TV remote", by the way 03:20:40 default adjust was fine 03:20:42 madbr: worse = fun 03:20:58 when i was a small person i took a magnet to the front of our television 03:21:01 the red would really bleed onto everything 03:21:01 madbr: You're also sure to have the lowest ordinary signal level a bit higher above that. 03:21:04 and my parents were too cheap to buy another one 03:21:10 so for 10 years we had wrong colors on everything 03:21:23 kmc: That's why I made sure not to buy discount parents. 03:21:28 -_- 03:21:36 It'a big up-front cost, but you're stuck with them for life. 03:21:42 pikhq: well, yeah you're sure to have some black too 03:21:44 kmc, must have been a really strong one then. Usually such things clear themselves pretty quickly 03:21:54 or you can hit the degauss thingy, at least on computer CRTs 03:22:02 yeah that came later 03:22:12 Vorpal: Yeah, most TVs don't have degaussing coils. 03:22:16 I think tv repairmen could degauss a tv too 03:22:24 Yeah. It's not hard to do. 03:22:41 pikhq, but even then magnets usually don't leave lasting problems 03:22:46 only temporary ones 03:23:15 Degauss :-( 03:23:18 * shachaf nostalg 03:23:38 every time you deguass a small man resembling gauss can be seen fleeing 03:24:31 http://img.spikedmath.com/comics/504-scumbag-gauss.png 03:25:57 wonder how much time is left until an asshole proves p!=np 03:26:31 anyway im killing the topic... >.< 03:26:36 pikhq, according to wikipedia the "thunk" when turing on the TV comes from automatic degaussing, don't know if that is correct though 03:26:48 Vorpal: Not all TVs do that. :) 03:26:56 never seen one that didn't 03:27:20 madbr: Because all signals are relative to the absolute low point of the sync signal, and you have a period of regular black after the sync. 03:27:20 vorpal: would be harder on TVs :D 03:27:34 right, since you're guaranteed to have the lowest possible level at least once per scanline (sync), then you can easily guess the signal amplitude 03:27:34 if you use negative signaling 03:27:56 itidus21: he had to leave *something* for other people to do 03:28:28 yeah if you use positive signaling you need at least a bit of white to figure out your signal range 03:28:46 or you could try to guess it from the difference in level between hblank and black 03:28:57 wow, a whole wikipedia page for "List of things named after Carl Friedrich Gauss" 03:29:11 /gaus/ 03:32:22 Gauss Facts seems indicated at this point 03:32:34 http://www.gaussfacts.com/ 03:32:57 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Kronos. 03:33:05 -!- Kronos has changed nick to copumpkin. 03:35:05 comex! 03:35:06 Er. 03:35:08 copumpkin! 03:35:14 yo 03:35:17 comex is cool too 03:35:24 I'd be more excited about him than myself 03:35:36 Oh. 03:35:40 Never mind about you, then. 03:35:43 comex: Are you the dual of mex? 03:35:55 copprumpkin regex 03:57:56 `log comex 03:58:16 shachaf: maybe 03:58:20 ahh! 03:58:29 No output. 03:59:57 hm what do you do for android an java package names if you don't own a domain? 04:01:57 cx.goatse.MyShittyApp 04:16:41 -!- ogrom has joined. 04:28:03 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:28:51 kmc, oh come on 04:42:48 jabberwock.vorpal.package 04:43:17 oh i know the right answer 04:43:30 you create a ytmnd for your project 04:44:05 Vorpal: You should get a domain name. 04:44:25 Is Alabama a country yet? 04:46:15 yes it's a third world country 04:49:13 ... Huh. 04:49:19 iso646.h 04:50:39 That and some digraphs, and you can write some really weird C. 04:52:01 int main(int argc, char *argv<::>) <% return not printf("Yes, really, this is C.??/n"); %> 04:56:05 main(argc, argv) char *argv<::>) <% return not printf("Yes, really, this is C.??/n"); %> 04:56:41 I don't think that'll work. IIRC C99 gets rid of K&R-style declarations. 04:56:52 And digraphs are C99. 04:57:25 // Will the next line be executed????????????????/ 04:57:25 a++; 04:58:34 Ugh. 04:58:38 pikhq: Digraphs are C99? 04:58:42 shachaf: Yes. 04:58:50 shachaf: Oh, sorry, I'm wrong. 04:58:52 Weren't digraphs a thing invented for really old machines? 04:58:55 shachaf: '94 addon. 04:59:00 Yes. 04:59:11 However, iso646.h *is* C99. 04:59:31 shachaf: Digraphs were also invented because trigraphs (a C90 thing) were ridiculous. 04:59:39 s/#include /#define not !/ 05:00:01 Oh, I confused digraphs and trigraphs. 05:00:12 main(argc, argv) char *argv??(??); ??< return not printf("So much uglier!??/n"); ??> 05:00:52 Trigraphs are the ones processed basically via sed before anything else. 05:01:03 Whereas digraphs are synonyms for tokens. 05:01:26 Ah. 05:09:42 they were invented because ebcdic was missing some characters no? 05:10:02 i think it's because some keyboard layouts make those characters hard to type 05:11:24 "Tcl is formally just as powerful since everything is a string, but it is usually not practical to have Tcl code take Tcl scripts apart and modified, since there are few facilities available out of the box for handling Tcl scripts at a higher level than as a string of characters (there are packages for higher level handling, however)." 05:11:24 and some national variants of ISO 646 don't have them 05:11:26 *sigh* 05:12:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:13:30 kmc: looking up ISO 646 05:13:36 what the hell is this dinosaur 05:14:03 it's ASCII and the various other national 7-bit codes based on it 05:14:54 ISO 8859 > ISO 646 05:15:25 yes but where the heck was that char set used 05:15:25 yeah 05:15:45 ASCII? it was pretty popular bro 05:15:55 you've probably heard of it before 05:16:10 kmc: You mean restricted UTF-8? 05:16:14 u madbr o? 05:16:22 no I mean iso646 05:16:42 [ISO 646 is] ASCII and the various other national 7-bit codes based on it 05:18:00 so in ISO 646 you have 7-bit characters, with 82 positions fixed (the "invariant set") and others varying by language 05:18:18 in ISO 8859 you have 8-bit characters, with 128 positions fixed (corresponding to all of ASCII) and the other 128 varying by language 05:18:46 Sgeo_: Incidentally, all valid Tcl scripts are also valid Tcl lists. 05:18:50 and now we have Unicode, which is the same everywhere, with various different standards for representing Unicode characters as sequences of bytes 05:20:00 pikhq, but not necessarily easy-to-process lists: semicolons become part of elements and newlines are ignored when viewing a script as a list, right? 05:20:17 Sgeo_: Bleh, probably. 05:20:21 yeah but what sort of real system uses iso 646 05:20:30 Sgeo_: Tcl metaprogramming eventually gets kinda weird. 05:20:35 you are huffing glue or something 05:22:02 Yet Lisp metaprogramming seems like it's simpler 05:22:12 Sgeo_: PARENTHESES LOLOLOLLOLOLLOLLOLOLOLOL 05:22:27 Sgeo_: That's because it is a bit simpler. 05:22:58 So why am I looking at Tcl? I think the whole starpack and Tk and event loop thing is drawing me in 05:23:18 Dunno. It is a neat language, at least... 05:23:39 iso646 looks like a pie in the sky standard some idiot came up with "because ascii is to US centric" 05:24:24 yeah, people outside the USA don't deserve computers anyway 05:24:37 they should be happy with the free bombs we drop on them 05:25:03 kmc: *free freedom bombs 05:25:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_646#National_variants so basically madbr you're arguing that all of these are fictional or just never used by anyone? 05:25:35 note the various different national standards bodies which created each one 05:25:38 they're not fictional but I'm looking around for uses 05:25:42 just "some idiot" right 05:26:02 god you annoy me 05:26:32 "That's why foreign standardizers crafted up national variants of ASCII like the German DIN 66003 which my first CP/M computer (a Sharp MZ-731) used in 1984 to communicate with its daisy wheel printer or the Danish DS 2089 mentioned by Bjarne Stroustrup in § 6.5.3 of his C++ history." 05:26:37 aha 05:26:39 http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso646.html 05:26:55 yeah that's the one I saw 05:27:04 trying to find another 05:27:05 i mean this stuff is all much older than the Internet 05:27:11 so don't expect to find much of it on the Internet 05:27:18 probably much older than DOS even 05:27:42 then why did they have to put trigraphs in C 05:27:57 because characters like { } aren't in the ISO 646 invariant set! 05:28:12 they don't exist in all national variants, or they might be at different code points 05:28:17 Are they in the covariant or the contravariant set? 05:28:22 -_- 05:28:48 the section "ISO-646: First attempts to internationalize the 7bit code" in that document 05:28:50 kmc: Good enough 05:28:51 explains the problem precisely 05:28:56 what about digraphs 05:29:05 which they put in in like 1994 05:29:25 presumably some people were still using these codes in 1994 05:31:45 TIL that the BCD in EBCDIC stands for BCD 05:33:03 madbr: it takes years to upgrade legacy systems and it also takes years to get standards through the process 05:33:17 fine for trigraphs 05:33:28 but why did they have to add digraphs after that 05:33:34 as a saner alternative to trigraphs 05:33:34 in 1994 05:33:57 1994 is like PCs and amigas 05:34:00 and macs 05:34:04 mostly PCs 05:34:08 madbr: Dude, we live in a world where UTF-8 is still not ubiquitous. 05:34:10 and a bunch of legacy systems 05:34:18 this is the typical mind fallacy 05:34:20 I was *3* when UTF-8 was invented. 05:34:30 in 1994 it was DOS's weird ass character set 05:34:35 vs latin01 05:34:38 you assume that the machine you had on your desk at home represents the typical computer in the world at that time 05:34:41 I was <3! 05:34:41 vs latin-1 rather 05:34:43 * shachaf <3 UTF-8 05:34:50 ignoring the huge numbers of old mainframes, industrial control systems, etc 05:34:55 vs whatever messed up sets the Macs had 05:35:01 all of which are 8 bit 05:35:04 If it takes that friggin' long for legacy charsets to die die die die, it certainly makes sense for ISO-646 based charsets to still be in use in '94. 05:35:15 And it's perfectly reasonable to want to use C on some of them. 05:35:23 yeah but they already had a solution (trigraphs) 05:35:26 these shiny but useless PC toys were probably not at the forefront of the minds of the people designing C94 05:35:31 Except trigraphs sucked. 05:36:06 Trigraphs are essentially a sed process before you hit the tokeniser. 05:36:19 they apply inside string literals and such 05:36:20 kinda nasty 05:36:39 Digraphs are just synonyms for certain tokens. 05:37:45 yeah there are many people who would laugh at you for asserting that 1994 was "PCs and amigas" 05:37:58 what do you think was used to do real work back then 05:38:11 yeah well I hope their lines of crummy servers died 05:38:31 (most of them did) 05:38:44 You think this now because you know what survived. 05:38:58 Namely, the shittiest platform around at the time. 05:39:21 shittiest? 05:39:28 madbr: must destroy what you don't understand, eh? 05:40:05 no I'm pissed at them for taking a piss on C's tokenizer 05:40:09 madbr: The IBM PC is perhaps the single shittiest platform to have ever been notable. 05:40:36 I'm not sure the macs compared favorably 05:40:37 the major redeeming feature of the PC platform is that it's remarkably open 05:40:58 which (as we're seeing today with smartphones and tablets) is not an inevitable property of successful products 05:41:03 but rather some kind of historical accident 05:41:10 basically IBM wasn't paying enough attention to lock it down 05:41:22 It's currently a 64-bit extension of a 32-bit extension of a 16-bit revision of an 8-bit CPU inspired by the *original* integrated circuit CPU. Which was 4-bit, BTW. 05:41:50 kmc: Did you see http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2012/07/classy-prelude ? 05:41:54 madbr: lol you're still thinking about "PC vs Macs" 05:42:12 pikhq: still strangled the itanium to death 05:42:14 "as soon as Hackage comes back up" 05:42:15 lol 05:42:20 sounds like i missed some drama 05:42:52 madbr: Quality and popularity have 0 correlation. Accept it, for this is the most fundamental truth of the world. 05:43:00 i wouldn't say 0 05:43:04 but it's pretty weak 05:43:24 x86 has some nice features 05:43:36 "PC platform" ≠ x86, also 05:43:47 aside from the randomization of the instruction set 05:43:54 and low number of registers 05:44:06 people always fixate on the ISA but this is one of the less interesting choices made in designing a platform 05:44:48 The ISA is more-or-less just the consequence of backwards compatibility decisions made on day one. 05:45:03 all the people trying to design VLIW stuff? failed 05:45:30 Only the better RISC architectures hold a candle 05:45:57 (it was designed so you could trivially machine translate 8080/8008 code to it) 05:46:25 yeah and then they carefully designed a processor to get away from that 05:46:30 and ended up with the i432 05:48:51 does the ISA really matter that much once you're doing out of order execution and register renaming? 05:49:50 It does, but not as much as several other shitty, shitty design decisions in the platform. 05:50:01 Figure 1: The BIOS. 05:50:43 is binary technically redundant? :D 05:52:08 ok i was wrong its not binary 05:52:15 i dunno how i got that idea in my head.. basic 05:52:40 what I'm saying is that, yes PCs have lot of baggage, but then if you look at the competing personal computers from back then, they had worse flaws 05:53:03 why do you think we're talking about personal computers 05:53:19 that's what the PC is 05:53:25 that's how it took the market 05:53:53 Imagine if the C64 had evolved like the IBM PC. ... In '94, it would be the shittiest platform. 05:54:49 I guess it would eventually have ended up with the 16 bit version of the 6502 05:55:07 well we were talking about how trigraphs are necessary for programming in C on certain platforms 05:55:15 and you seem to have assumed those platforms are "personal computers" 05:55:25 which is extremely far from the truth 05:55:41 aiui even programs for personal computers would often be compiled on bigger machines, in that era 05:55:57 kmc: never heard of that one 05:57:16 kmc: I didn't think that was *too* common by the 90s. 05:57:33 Certainly it was the case earlier. 06:01:58 but yeah as flawed as the PC was, it was probably the best of the personal computers 06:01:59 IMHO 06:03:07 yes the personal computer is the best personal computer. 06:03:08 I agree. 06:03:13 nothing else could be as good of a personal computer. 06:03:20 -_- 06:03:22 lol 06:03:27 jezz 06:04:10 redundant acronyms am i rite 06:04:11 raucous laughter here 06:04:52 i don't think redundant acronyms represents a full survey of the absurdity unfolding 06:05:13 I just choose to interpret PC as literally "personal computer" 06:05:23 what other interpretations are possible? 06:05:27 instead of "machine running Windows" or whatever it's supposed to mean nowadays. 06:05:52 the whole "PC vs. Mac" thing... 06:05:57 but Macs are PCs! 06:06:16 "IBM PC" is a computer platform 06:06:25 "It's not that I'm incapable of understanding what you meant, I just choose to misinterpret regardless of however it derails the conversation because it makes me feel better about something" 06:06:30 meaning it's a set of specifications for a processor and how that processor interacts with peripherals 06:06:44 stuff like, here is your bus, here is your BIOS and the functions it provides, here's how you boot 06:07:02 "PC" today would refer to a large and evolving collection of such specifications 06:07:02 I see. I must have arrived late to the party. 06:07:17 shachaf: is that a quote from somewhere? 06:07:36 No. 06:07:47 kallisti: The term “WC” has been suggested for a computer running Windows. 06:08:08 * kallisti pretends to be an ignorant American. "I DON'T GET IT" 06:08:10 i'm not sure to what extent "Macs are PCs" under that view 06:08:24 EFI is part of the new world order for PCs, isn't it 06:08:45 you can boot an EFI-aware Windows or Linux system on a Mac without Boot Camp, can't you? 06:08:49 perhaps a PC is a machine which is not a Mac 06:09:01 itidus21: perhaps bonghits will fix your dichotomy 06:09:08 EFI isn't an Apple thing. 06:09:15 i know 06:09:18 Well, maybe Apple is the only one who uses it. 06:09:20 but Macs use it, no? 06:09:33 i thought other consumer hardware was EFI capable by now 06:09:57 does EFI still boot in 16 bit mode? 06:10:18 I thought a PC was a computer designed for and in the price range of an individual person. 06:10:25 I think kmc has taken a more specific definition the one I use. 06:10:26 kmc: Rather a lot of it is by now. 06:10:36 kallisti: I took the definition used by the preceeding discussion 06:10:37 madbr: Technically, all x86 CPUs do. 06:10:40 where "PC" was short for "IBM PC" 06:10:58 yeah 06:11:02 madbr: EFI firmware just switches to protected or long mode early in the boot sequence, before control is handed to the OS. 06:11:09 bastard 06:11:27 was just thinking they were trying to find a way to avoid the 16 bit part in the boot 06:11:47 to eventually make 16bit support not necessary at all and eventually take it out of CPUs 06:12:01 jenga principle 06:12:06 It'll take the death of the BIOS first. 06:12:38 And then a new generation of CPUs which are incompatible with EFI firmwares that start in 16-bit mode. 06:14:09 Even then, you'd probably want those CPUs to be long mode only, so you don't have to think about virtual 8086 mode. 06:14:51 * kallisti goes back to his corner. 06:17:26 32bit mode on x86 still probably has a long life left tho 06:18:10 Yup. 06:18:36 And so we're stuck with a single platform with ludicrous floats. 06:18:45 floats? 06:18:55 x87. 06:19:11 isn't it slowly being replaced by SSE? 06:19:49 not that it really matters, afaik for most cpus, x87 and SSE use the same ALUs anyways 06:19:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 06:20:20 but x87 supports the wacky 80-bit float format 06:20:30 if x87 went away you could drop the hardware to support that 06:20:34 not sure if that really matters 06:20:34 for intermediate computation only 06:20:42 you can also load/store them 06:20:52 but anyway, you still need that hardware to produce the correct results 06:20:53 madbr: The 32-bit x86 ABIs don't generally *permit* you to ignore x87. 06:21:06 Floats are passed on the x87 register-stack. 06:21:15 kmc: yeah but that's actually rare 06:21:27 kmc: x87 is technically available on x86_64 as well. 06:21:30 afaik loading/storing 80bit floats is really slow 06:21:46 thought it was deprecated on x86-64 06:21:50 madbr: but the CPU still needs to support it 06:21:50 madbr: Then passing floats is really slow? 06:21:58 madbr: You pass floats on the x87 register stack. 06:22:04 Which only knows about 80-bit floats. 06:22:12 pikhq: no I mean loading and saving them to ram 06:22:46 well you can set a FPU control bit to make them act like 64-bit floats, iirc 06:22:59 kmc: which almost works 06:23:08 (exponent range isn't affected) 06:23:14 it's not actually faster though 06:23:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:23:20 x87's weird ass floats at least gives you a funny property... 06:23:28 except for / and sqrt 06:23:45 x86 has, in effect, 64-bit integers, and has even when it was a 16-bit platform. 06:23:48 :P 06:24:07 eh 06:24:30 hehe 06:25:20 x = x; 06:25:29 Did someone make an esolang where that would be a useful thing to do? 06:25:34 It vaguely sounds familiar 06:25:36 yes, it's called C++ 06:25:51 ?!?! 06:26:35 i mean, if you have some bad / weird design 06:26:48 then operator= might have some useful side effect 06:26:56 at least a performance optimization 06:27:06 mov eax, eax 06:27:12 performance optimization? 06:27:28 like what? :D 06:27:57 like rebalancing a data structure 06:28:37 how would you optimize that with 80 bit floats? :D 06:29:00 i was responding to Sgeo_ 06:29:06 who i do not believe was talking about 80 bit floats 06:29:36 Sgeo was talking about "x = x;", which could potentially have strange semantics in C++. 06:29:41 oh 06:29:46 x += 2 an lvalue in C? 06:29:48 I thought it was an emoticon 06:29:49 like it is in perl? 06:30:12 (x += 2) returns x+2 I think 06:30:18 yes 06:30:19 that's an rvalue 06:30:21 but is it an lvalue? 06:30:33 rvalue *as opposed to lvalue*, presumably. 06:30:46 unless I guess it could return the address of x 06:30:52 I should test it 06:31:55 in perl it's perfectly reasonable to do ($hash{x} = $x = $arr[2] += 1) %= 256; 06:32:08 yeah but that's perl 06:32:16 "perfectly reasonable" 06:32:53 which has some operators that can change behavior depending on if there's 0, 1 or 2+ values in an array 06:32:59 If I'm not mistaken 06:33:09 barely remember it tho 06:33:12 not that I've seen. 06:33:29 perl is far more consistent than it's given credit. 06:43:18 madbr: oh, I guess you're talking about subroutines arguments, since they're stored in an array. 06:43:29 that's the same thing as having default values in other languages. 06:50:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 06:50:57 Hello 06:50:59 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 07:03:23 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:03:56 The fuck. Guess when Egyptian (well, its evolved descendant) died? 07:05:01 The 17th friggin' century. 07:09:16 http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57471178-83/yahoos-password-leak-what-you-need-to-know-faq/ 07:09:30 They're vulnerable to SQL injection, why expect them to store passwords sanely? 07:17:40 Assuming volatile int x that coincides with some memory-mapped device, 'x = x;' can be a reasonable thing to do. 07:18:08 Can't exactly think of an example offhand, but anyway. 07:18:53 Could also be handy to pad your executable. :P 07:19:57 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:22:35 And to nitpick a little, 'x += 2' returns new value of x, not necessarily the same as 'x+2'. Consider e.g. unsigned char x = 255, in which case (assuming regular sizes) x+2 is likely to be 257 thanks to the default integer promotions, while x+=2 is likely to return 1. 07:48:52 -!- myndzi has joined. 08:03:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:08:05 " The -- switch can be used to mark the end of switches; it may be needed if path is an unusual value such as -safe." 08:08:11 Well, I feel safe now (no I don't) 08:13:38 -!- nooga has joined. 08:20:45 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:35:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:36:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:46:15 Sgeo_: General rule when doing stuff like foo * is to use foo -- * ;) 08:49:42 -!- ogrom has joined. 09:10:00 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:12:38 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 10:00:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:01:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 10:01:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:48:24 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:55:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:37:07 -!- boily has joined. 11:50:04 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:51:33 -!- derdon has joined. 12:55:45 -!- gkunno has joined. 13:12:02 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:17:11 . 13:17:12 .. 13:17:14 ... 13:17:16 .... 13:17:20 ..... 13:17:34 Insert requisite combo breaker. 13:17:52 success 13:17:57 -!- gkunno has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:41:24 From elsewhere, though I think I recall an older similar thing few years back: http://www.legoturingmachine.org/ (it's 13:41:33 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:41:38 I forget what the bit in parens was trying to be. 13:41:39 Anyway. 13:48:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:53:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:53:18 -!- stanley has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:54:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:56:02 -!- stanley has joined. 14:01:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:02:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:02:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 14:02:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:07:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:27:53 -!- aod has joined. 14:28:51 hi 14:30:38 Hi 14:30:43 `welcome aod 14:30:45 hi 14:30:53 aod: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 14:31:00 -!- aod has left. 14:31:06 Good going. 14:33:00 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:37:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:37:46 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:52:35 -!- ernesto1 has joined. 14:52:47 -!- ernesto1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:53:27 -!- ernesto1 has joined. 14:56:54 -!- ernesto1 has left. 14:57:18 -!- ernesto1 has joined. 15:01:55 `welcome HackEgo 15:01:58 HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 15:02:22 He needed that . 15:02:26 At least HackEgo didn't run away screaming. 15:02:33 Unlike most other welcomees. 15:04:50 -!- ernesto1 has left. 15:06:47 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:07:26 Hello! 15:07:30 I've got bad news 15:09:01 NOn your plane were snakes? 15:09:20 Why the 0x7Fs? 15:09:30 Isn't that DEL? 15:09:39 Have you incorrectly configured your terminal? 15:09:51 Am I seeing things? 15:10:17 Hm? 15:10:35 You should see NOn your plane were snakes? 15:10:45 Anyway, the bad news is that I'm going to start volunteering in a charity shop 15:11:01 why is that bad news? 15:11:07 But my internet connection is very slow at the moment so I don't see what I type 15:11:13 nortti, I dunno 15:11:34 He's not getting paid for it? 15:13:24 mroman, http://imgur.com/wAJFC 15:15:13 Do you see them now? 15:16:30 Yes 15:16:39 No 15:16:48 You mean in that line you just said? 15:16:49 No 15:16:57 Taneb: Yes @17:15 15:17:08 They aren't there :) 15:18:26 what. what the fuck it that what happens when you press ^A c ^[ on screen? 15:19:37 I mean ^A^[ 15:20:14 Isn't that the copy mode by default? 15:20:27 Screen's built-in copy-paste thing. 15:20:43 oh 15:20:48 Select stuff by... several keys, and then paste with ^A^]. 15:21:28 hjkl (or cursor keys) move, enter starts/ends selection, and there's other less useful keys too. 15:21:32 (Aways now.) 15:25:03 getting message: Welcome to hacker's treasure zoo - Column 13 Line 64(+1000) (160,64) 15:25:15 was just kinda strange 15:34:55 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:08:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:09:38 hi 16:10:30 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:16:13 -!- edwardk has joined. 16:19:44 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:20:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:23:48 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 16:25:10 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:25:44 Hello 16:27:49 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:29:49 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:31:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:32:11 Taneb: You still haven't told us why you think that your news is bad. 16:32:27 BECAUSE I WILL LOSE MY SATURDAYS 16:32:56 Jeez. No need to scream. 16:33:09 I'M NOT SCREAMING 16:33:15 NOW I'M SCREAMING 16:40:09 -!- aloril has joined. 16:47:50 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:48:54 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:55:19 Got a spam with the subject "i'm dying" 16:55:26 Apparently referring to the laptop battery 16:55:38 :P 16:56:15 http://www.reddit.com/r/spam 17:01:20 -!- aloril has joined. 17:11:04 -!- kallisti has joined. 17:14:26 zzo38, will there be a new version of prelude-generalize to reflect the new version of comonad? 17:15:07 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 17:17:30 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:17:48 Taneb: Perhaps I may do that one day but then I should fix my other packages using comonads too 17:17:55 :) 17:18:11 how does a comonad work? 17:18:44 duplicate :: w a -> w (w a); extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b; extract :: w a -> a 17:19:17 This lets you manipulate context without adding to it 17:19:22 *Use context 17:20:06 I really think monads should be defined in a similar way class Functor m => Monad m where { join :: m (m a) -> m a; bind :: (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b; return :: a -> m a; } 17:20:18 zzo38, that's tangentical 17:20:21 Consider the ((,) e) comonad 17:20:55 This lets you do extend (\(a,b) -> a + b) :: Num a => (e, a) -> (e, a) 17:20:58 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:21:16 *Num a => (a, a) -> (a, a) 17:21:36 This lets you use the environment element of the tuple while keeping it the same 17:22:09 Another example: 17:22:23 Yes I do understand that it is an environment comonad, I like that. 17:22:35 Imagine an image data type data Img a = Img (Array (Int, Int) a) (Int, Int) 17:22:43 So it has the image, and a coordinate 17:22:59 extract would get the pixel at the specified coordinate 17:23:13 (the pixel is an arbitrary type, of course) 17:23:49 And I guess extend would do convolution filters 17:24:02 If you define a function that gives the pixel above the specified pixel, call it f, extend f shifts the image down a pixel 17:24:36 * edwardk looks up at the comonad chatter 17:24:37 Blurs aren't that hard to do, etc, etc 17:24:53 edwardk, was it you who showed me this example 17:25:03 yeah 17:25:03 Blur, shift one down, these are both kinds of convolution filters 17:25:21 For recolouring, you can just use fmap 17:25:26 its one of my favorite comonad examples 17:25:35 It's a good example 17:25:50 cellular automata are another good one 17:26:03 because you can run a game of life in that image comonad as well for instance 17:26:08 how about faster convolutions? 17:26:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:26:31 faster how? 17:26:39 Less slow. 17:26:42 I want to use comonads to derive the convolution theorem 17:26:44 >_> 17:26:53 What convolution theorem? 17:27:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution_theorem 17:28:27 The NonEmpty comonad lets you use the remainder of the list as context, which is useful sometimes 17:28:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:29:04 duplicate for non-empty list makes the part of the list starting from each element 17:29:11 So it will do that 17:29:21 -!- kallisti has joined. 17:29:21 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 17:29:21 -!- kallisti has joined. 17:30:18 duplicate copies the context to the content, sort of? 17:30:42 While keeping the content 17:31:05 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 17:32:11 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:32:19 The purpose of duplicate differs by the comonads and the purpose of join differs by the monads, what they mean for each one is differ as long as the laws are followed. Therefore it also makes a Kleisli category or coKleisli category and can use bind and extend to mean something too. Or you can do it the other way around also work. 17:33:07 I've got an unrelated question 17:33:22 How are Arrows generalizations of Monads? 17:34:15 -!- aloril has joined. 17:34:22 I do not understand that either. To me it seem, Arrow is a category, having a functor from (->), and is a tensor category, and fanout, and possibly some additional laws. 17:36:19 Arrows are a specialisation of Categories, I get that 17:37:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: dinner). 17:43:07 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:43:24 edwardk: Do you know anything about Penrose graphical notation? And about what categories are possible to draw in this way (with restrictions, such as you may be unable to cross lines and whatever depending on what category) 17:43:49 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 17:44:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:45:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:47:19 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:48:02 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:51:07 back 17:51:26 re: penrose diagrams I'm more familiar with the trace diagram special case 17:52:10 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:52:16 -!- ernesto1 has joined. 17:53:19 and you can probably use some form of tensor diagrams in monoidal categories, which would make sense given the existence of string diagrams 17:53:32 zzo38: are you familiar with string diagrams? 17:55:28 -!- aloril has joined. 17:56:14 -!- ernesto1 has left. 18:15:33 No 18:17:01 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:17:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:17:52 -!- neutrino2000 has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:17:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:30:56 zzo38: they are what you are looking for in category theory as an equivalent 18:31:18 there is a video series by the catsters on them 18:31:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USYRDDZ9yEc 18:31:20 -!- aloril has joined. 18:31:46 they have ~5 videos, and the recent hinze paper on kan extensions uses them a lot, so you may get some intuition on them from that 18:32:11 they are closer to trace diagrams, which are a special case of the penrose notation 18:41:35 I wonder what these dmesg lines spamming my dmesg is about: 18:41:36 [203653.110416] cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: This device cannot do calls on its own. It is not a modem. 18:41:36 [203653.110589] cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: ttyACM0: USB ACM device 18:42:13 mostly from yesterday 18:42:25 I only think I used an USB mouse and an USB memory then? 18:42:36 hacked by chinese 18:43:16 oh actually I might have connected my phone yesterday 18:43:22 that would make some sense 18:44:01 bbl 18:46:17 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:46:18 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:49:39 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:05 -!- edwardk has joined. 18:52:43 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host c