00:12:46 Gregor: Quick question: should I switch to aptosid, and if so how best to do so? 00:12:55 Like, just edit sources.list and dist-upgrade? 00:13:10 I've never tried a switch-over to aptosid, but I can't imagine why it wouldn't work. 00:13:26 And should I? 00:13:39 I like it. What are you switching from? 00:13:50 Debian Testing. 00:14:48 Yeah, I'd switch. I've been using Aptosid more-or-less hassle free since before it was Aptosid *shrugs* 00:17:39 * pikhq_ mutters 00:17:40 Did they use the longitude/latitude numbers on Mars, to figure out how to land on Mars? I think they have defined where is zero longitude on Mars by now. 00:17:56 Dammit Aptosid people, tell me what your sources.list magic is! 00:19:05 I'm trying to do unconventional things here! 00:19:22 pikhq_: ... 00:19:26 pikhq_: Dude, Download/Mirrors on the left. 00:19:42 It shows them all in terms of the exact lines to add to sources.list 00:23:21 How to cross-platform check for file exist and file size in a C code? 00:26:11 "Need to get 623MB of archives." Wheeee! 00:27:28 zzo38: I know with POSIX you're guaranteed to be able to do it, but I don't know if you can if one of your platforms isn't POSIX 00:29:27 FreeFull: This program ought to work on Windows and on UNIX (including Linux). This program also uses SDL, in case that matters at all. 00:34:36 (On Windows, it can be using MinGW and Cygwin, although Cygwin is also UNIX anyways.) 00:38:20 Where is document to explain which of these functions work in what system (MinGW, Cygwin, Linux, etc)? 00:43:04 Gregor: Did I do this wrong, or is the latest version of Iceweasel in aptosid version 10? 00:43:49 Can stat() be used in MinGW and Cygwin and Linux and FreeBSD? 00:58:12 -!- itidus21 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:05:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:09:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:10:18 Welp, new kernel. 01:10:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Client Quit). 01:16:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:19:43 Those jerks! 01:19:53 aptosid doesn't enable zram! 01:23:07 now with the nonsense words again 01:23:51 aptosid is a Debian variant, zram is a compressed RAM disk for use as swap. 01:24:25 Back to having a swap partition. :( 01:24:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 01:24:27 my comment was really about how they sounded like nonsense :P 01:25:00 At least now I have a kernel sans retarded-broken writeback. 01:26:24 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:26:27 which reminds me about this i saw linked in a reddit comment http://www.laurenipsum.org/mostly-lost 01:28:33 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:27 *And* they didn't enable codel! 01:37:38 These people don't know how to configure a damned kernel. 01:44:42 zzo38: stat() should work with Cygwin, Linux and FreeBSD fine. Not sure about MinGW 01:45:15 Well, I tried it just now with MinGW and it seems to be working OK. 01:52:27 pikhq: Aptosid doesn't have its own Iceweasel; it doesn't have most packages, just fixes. The latest version is whatever's in Debian sid (assuming you correctly switched testing->sid too) 02:33:36 Gregor: I did. 02:33:51 Gregor: I was under the impression it might have upgraded some silly-old packages still. 02:34:56 Gregor: Ah, whatever, I don't use it as my primary browser anyways. 02:34:59 It's pretty hands-off. 02:35:16 *gives self points for not typing “hooves-off”* 02:41:53 * Phantom_Hoover sees someone on the internet arguing that Modern Warfare 3 is morally abhorrent because the button you press to kill a sleeping guard is the one most games use for miscellaneous interactions like flipping switches. 02:42:19 I can't even mock it properly. 02:46:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:51:19 * oerjan notes the following reddit title "So excited for the showers tonight! :D (First picture I've ever taken)." 02:52:13 links to this http://imgur.com/lYxEr 02:56:01 it's understandable that they had to disable the downvote button in that subreddit. 02:58:52 Is it pretty hooves-off too or only hands-off? 02:59:48 i don't know 03:01:08 it has nothing to do with ponies, anyhow 04:02:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gah headache). 04:21:10 -!- amberdawn has joined. 04:21:26 -!- amberdawn has changed nick to Zelinc. 04:22:43 What is the best C code to convert the NES/Famicom attribute table address to the address of the tile which it affects? 04:24:06 -!- Zelinc has changed nick to amberdawn. 04:24:08 f(){*NULL;} 04:24:16 -!- amberdawn has left. 04:25:22 This is stupid why must the bit select operation be only for INTERCAL? 04:26:16 And also bit unselect operation which not even INTERCAL includes. 04:27:10 Huh, bit select seems like a generally useful operator. 04:27:44 pikhq: Yes, I agree. 04:28:04 I mean, it's slightly weird I guess, but that's actually something I could see myself using in real code. 04:28:21 Yes I would use it too. 04:29:37 But sometimes the reverse operation can be useful too 04:30:58 While writing Famitile I already found at least three uses of this bit select operator and its reverse. 04:34:09 What does bit select do again? 04:35:08 FreeFull: n `select` mask is *kinda* like n | mask, except instead of the 0 bits in the mask being 0 in the result they are non-existent. 04:35:27 So, 101 `select` 100 = 1, instead of 100. 04:35:40 So it's like an and and a right shift 04:35:57 Except more 04:36:28 So would 1101 `select` 1011 be 101 04:36:53 Yes. 04:37:00 Interesting 04:37:08 What could be used here is the reverse bit select of 0x1DC, I think. 04:37:14 Shouldn't be too hard to code 04:37:52 FreeFull: INTERCAL has that operation built-in. Other programming languages don't have that, and I know of no machine code having such instruction either. 04:37:53 I really wish C had native rotate and reverse bits 04:38:36 FreeFull: Yes it can be useful to do so. 04:38:38 zzo38: ARM has an instruction that takes an offset and number of bytes to extract, but that would only work for a continuous group of bytes 04:38:44 s/bytes/bits/ 04:38:46 Brain sleepty 04:44:46 UBFX and SBFX 04:44:51 U is unsigned, S is signed 04:45:06 BFX is bit field extract 04:45:48 There is also bit field insert 04:46:51 Anyway, it wouldn't be too hard to write a function selectBits(int x, int y); 04:47:57 But it might be too slow 04:48:04 Well, you'd probably want uint64_t selectBits(uint64_t x, uint64_t y); 04:48:11 Wouldn't be any slower than intercal =P 04:48:57 Actually C-INTERCAL includes optimization files, so yes it would be slower than INTERCAL. 04:49:47 Have you tested a well written selectBits() function against C-INTERCAL's `select` then? 04:56:46 No but it seems like it would be slower. Probably if the right operand is a constant it would be done better using other stuff. If the right operand is not constant then that is different. 04:57:13 But probably either way is slower than if there was a machine instruction for that purpose. 05:00:49 * Sgeo sads at the Bloom tutorial assuming I have a Bloom repl open 05:01:30 The compiler would probably optimise it into some inline ands, ors and shifts 05:01:55 I don't think x86 has an instruction that would correspond to select 05:02:41 Yes, they would do it like that, if it is constant. 05:04:05 If not constant then probably some unrolled loop 05:04:06 FreeFull: x86 prefers to add instructions for crc32. 05:04:28 As well as memcpy. 05:04:43 Well crc is cyclic redundancy check 05:04:51 memcpy can be *branchless* on x86. 05:05:12 pikhq: For any size? 05:05:15 Yes. 05:05:20 rep movsb 05:05:43 Oh yeah 05:06:00 mov ecx, -1 05:06:02 rep movsb 05:06:03 bam 05:06:46 Things like "'.1~.1'~#1" in INTERCAL might become (!!r1) in C, and "'.1~.1'~#2" indicates that the value of register 1 is neither zero nor a power of 2. 05:06:58 Though a more efficient implementation will use rep movsd or rep movsq to deal in 32-bit or 64-bit quantities at a time, and then copy any left-over bytes... 05:07:05 Still ridiculous. 05:08:06 Why is it ridiculous? 05:08:52 Copying happens a lot in some contexts, so it made sense for the x86 people to add in the string instructions 05:09:27 And rep is pretty clever 05:10:12 Why would someone have to do x: movsb loop x when rep movsb will do the same thing much quicker 05:11:02 Because that has actually no relation with how the CPU works at all. 05:12:05 Well, if you're copying from memory to memory 05:12:15 There isn't much reason for the data to go through the CPU 05:12:37 Where the hell else would it go? Memory isn't magic. 05:12:43 (though friendship is) 05:14:36 Through a dedicated memory chip? 05:14:52 What, you mean a CPU? 05:15:51 A CPU is for computation 05:16:44 Well, I guess the northbridge is integrated into the CPU nowadays 05:16:48 But it used to be separate 05:17:03 Then they should make it faster by allowing you to put your own microcodes in and modify them at runtime, and including the instructions from esolangs Muxcomp and Checkout, as well. 05:17:06 It was also little more than a translator between the CPU bus and the RAM bus. 05:17:07 It only got integrated in in 2011 05:17:22 Much earlier if you use AMD. 05:17:36 My point is that a CPU is much faster than RAM 05:17:59 So while RAM is being copied, it can do something else 05:18:20 So rep movsb is wasted silicon, because actually doing the operations that it's doing in microcode takes no more time? 05:18:26 Thank you, I agree. :P 05:20:15 Also, the CPU might be much faster than RAM, but the RAM is only operating in terms of "load $small_amount $address" and "write $small_amount $address". 05:20:40 ($small_amount on modern systems being 64 bits) 05:21:29 And what better to deal with the need to emit the fetches and writes to gradually incrementing addresses than the processor? 05:22:05 Especially keeping in mind that cache also comes into play here, and that's controlled entirely *in* the processor. 05:22:58 Why would the data go into the cache when the processor isn't actually doing anything with it, just moving it around? 05:23:56 Even if *somehow* by *magic fairy dust* it can "not do anything" but "move it around", *cache still comes into play*. Cache coherency, have you heard of it? 05:24:52 Basically, the cache in the CPU must correspond to the actual state of RAM, otherwise you get incorrect behavior. 05:25:24 You're right 05:26:00 Having an external thing handling the memory means either the CPU's basically blocking on that external thing or it's constantly getting cache invalidations over the bus. 05:26:00 So if cache is pointing at a piece of ram that you're copying to, you need to update, otherwise you can keep the cache as it is 05:26:54 And in any case any writes to either area of memory will have to block on it in order for semantics to be preserved. 05:27:22 This is a *lot* of silicon that would be wasted for a dubious optimization. 05:27:38 And silicon space is a lot of what a CPU design actually optimizes for. 05:28:21 What, not erasing cache when the cache isn't pointing at RAM that's being modified? 05:29:09 Blocking on the memory copy when you try writing over its source or destination before the memory copy is complete. 05:29:26 Merely only invalidating certain cache lines isn't *that* hard. 05:30:20 But what happen if it is RAM being modified by other devices or it is not RAM but is connected to something else instead? 05:30:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 05:30:51 zzo38: Cache invalidation happens, and if you happen to be modifying RAM being modified by other devices your code breaks. 05:31:04 zzo38: The issue is, the second bit *is impermissible for memcpy()*. 05:31:35 FreeFull: Anyways, this is Premature Optimization. 05:32:12 FreeFull: If you show me a program where fast memcpy would make it much faster, I'll show you a program authored by a moron. 05:32:27 I mean the memory might be connected to I/O and ROM and timers and stuff instead of only being RAM. 05:33:59 pikhq: In olden times, you'd want your memcpy to be as fast as you could go for graphics purposes, but I imagine nowadays graphics cards have their own inbuilt internal memory routines, and it doesn't matter as much 05:34:58 zzo38: I don't think the CPU caches non-RAM though, does it? 05:35:10 Maybe it could cache the ROM 05:35:11 In olden times, if you used memcpy for your graphics routines you were stupid. 05:35:46 pikhq: So how are you supposed to display the same thing in two places on the screen then 05:36:22 I don't know much about CPU cache. But I suppose yes it could be designed to cache ROM, as long as it is not bank-switched, I guess. 05:36:47 Well, if you're reading a lot from ROM for some reason, it makes sense to cache it 05:36:53 Pssst, memcpy doesn't help that much with that, and if you need to display something other than a rectangle in two different places *you can't use memcpy anyways*. 05:37:19 pikhq: You copy linewise 05:38:13 Yes, and congrats, you're using memcpy with fixed small size meaning it's very fast and probably doing it on memory that's cache which means it's fast anyways. 05:38:18 And you're still copying a rectangle. 05:38:55 It is very rare that you want to display a rectangle at multiple points in the screen. 05:39:08 It happens 05:40:37 And it's still premature optimization. Also, your utterly psychotic plan to have external hardware do the memcpy instead would only even be *faster* than the CPU just doing it if the amount to copy is large and/or not in cache anyways... 05:40:40 Although now the graphics card would probably do a lot more of the heavy-lifting 05:41:02 If it's small and in cache, the CPU is also the cheapest thing to do it. Like, a dozen clock cycles or so. 05:41:20 pikhq: I failed to consider that you'd need to keep the cache coherent 05:41:45 Which is almost enough time to emit a single fetch to RAM. 05:43:08 Separate hardware would probably only make sense with a CPU that has no cache, only registers 05:43:45 And is designed to maximize performance, rather than cost/performance ratio. 05:44:08 It is very rare that you want to display a rectangle at multiple points in the screen. 05:44:15 Um... 05:44:30 Phantom_Hoover: Sprite drawing is what you want to be fast. 05:45:03 At least, on old stuff like that. 05:45:12 Oh wait you mean two dynamically updated rectangles. 05:45:18 Not backdrops or anything. 05:45:21 Also *scrolling*. 05:46:30 Well, yeah, just drawing a backdrop is done once, unless you're scrolling the screen or something. ... In which case you actually want your graphics hardware to be able to do that for you on a slow system. 05:47:52 I thought those old graphics cards only support vertical scrolling 05:48:48 Which is why you didn't see scrolling platformers on those systems. 05:49:01 The NES, for instance, did both. 05:49:32 Well, the NES was made for games 05:49:46 Y'know, the thing where 2D graphics performance matters. 05:50:28 IBM PCs ended up with games rather coincidentally, so initally didn't have specialised hardware for game stuff 05:51:11 They also were profoundly limited by the platform until CPU speed went high enough that a framebuffer was actually reasonable for it. 05:51:57 (the NES *did not actually expose a framebuffer*, and neither did other consoles of the day) 05:52:10 Well, there was Mode X, which allowed you to touch four pixels at once 05:53:51 But it may be possible to make up a NES mapper hardware for exposing a framebuffer. MMC5 does a few things with the PPU nametables so possibly can be done other things, too. 05:54:24 You can look at whatever NES demosceners do 05:55:01 Lots of clever tricks with the sprite and background tiles. 05:55:23 And, of course, changing the palletes. 05:55:39 Yes they do those things too. 06:25:01 FreeFull: You can do "hardware-accelerated" horizontal scrolling also with VGA, it's just slightly trickier. (Basically, twiddle the row pith register to get some invisible working room, increment/decrement the starting address by one to scroll right/left by 4 pixels, and use the Horizontal Pixel Panning register to scroll by 0..3 pixels to make it smooth.) 06:27:07 (As opposed to vertical scrolling which is just a matter of changing the starting offset.) 06:29:06 -!- nooga has joined. 06:31:17 fizzie: Oh, hey, that actually does work. Barely. 06:34:17 And what's this about a "psychotic plan" to have external hardware do a memcpy so that the CPU doesn't need to bother; isn't that pretty much exactly what DMA controllers are? (Okay, so they are mostly involved in I/O contexts, but you can do memory-to-memory DMA too. E.g. Intel has the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I/O_Acceleration_Technology thing on their mobos for offloading memory copying.) 06:36:43 fizzie: He was suggesting it as an implementation of rep movsb. 06:37:04 fizzie: Y'know, the memcpy opcode. 06:37:43 You could do it, but there is no way you would want it for memcpy, and it could not sanely have the expected semantics of memcpy. 06:38:16 Well, okay, that'd be kind of weird. 06:38:34 We weren't talking the concept of memcpy, but literally void *memcpy(void *dest, const void *src, size_t n); 06:39:04 Yup. 06:40:37 I had a look at the glibc x86-specific memcpy a while ago. It's amusingly complicated. 06:41:41 I bet it's also amusingly inefficient. 06:42:02 Does it, like, special-case memory based on the first byte of the address because of some esoteric, tiny hardware effect? 06:42:02 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 06:42:23 glibc is practically based on premature optimization and pessimization. 06:47:15 Actually I am currently writing a program for NES graphics, it is almost finish first version. 06:48:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:48:49 Not the first byte, but I guess you could say it special-cases on the last byte since SSE-based copying is oh-so-fast when dealing with 16-byte aligned stuffs. 06:49:02 And the GCC builtin memcpy is not much less complicated. 06:50:13 fizzie: It's probably faster to just rep movsd or rep movsq. Certainly going to be quicker if memcpy is only occasionally called, in which case the impact on cache from the code matters... 06:51:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopf_link 06:51:52 Wow, that's quite a thing to have named after you. 06:52:52 I'm pretty sure they *do* do benchmarks with approximates-real-world-code uses, not just guess. 06:52:55 The GCC folks, at least. 06:54:53 The GCC folks perhaps. The glibc folks have had "performance improvement" commits that don't even function correctly. 06:55:10 Much less work faster. 06:57:11 IIRC, the performance of rep movs compared to fancy memcpys have varied between "just as fast" and "ridiculously slow", depending on the cpu model 06:57:19 it is still short though 06:58:49 And that matters heavily on modern systems. 06:59:12 If the disparity between RAM and CPU speed grows much more we might start switching to threaded code just to use less RAM. 07:04:57 if the compiler just had any clue about which code to bother with, it would be free to do that for all the code that isn't run often 07:05:36 a modern cpu is basically a jit compiler though, so maybe it could just do that all the time 07:06:21 The CPU would still have to fetch the code. 07:06:27 *Which is the slow part*. 07:11:00 hmm, is all non-size optimization already pessimisation then? 07:11:58 I highly doubt you could have a rule like that. 07:12:58 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:14:41 I haven't e.g. heard of ICC giving up loop unrolling completely; if only code size mattered, that'd be an obvious pessimization. 07:15:20 ICC's -O1: "Optimize to favor code size and code locality. Disables loop unrolling. -O1 may improve performance for applications with very large code size, many branches, and execution time not dominated by code within loops. In most cases, -O2 is recommended over -O1." 07:15:39 (-O2 is still the default.) 07:15:56 so i overpaid for a Mac Classic ._. 07:15:58 oh well 07:16:22 at least it has a beta System Software (one that's not available anyone else) 07:18:29 loop unrolling could expose e.g. vectorization or merge several loop iterations into one operation, and the compiler can undo it after it notices nothing happened except code getting duplicated (not sure if it does though) 07:18:32 fizzie: It's somewhat more complex than *always* being a pessimization, it's just that it *often* is... 07:19:18 fizzie: And if your goal is good software, not just FAAAST -funroll-all-loops!!!, then it's a pessimization for other factors your care about. 07:19:50 Like "being able to come back to it three months later and change something". 07:20:32 Uh.. why would loop unrolling by a compiler affect the maintainability of the source code? 07:20:46 fizzie: Sorry, I wasn't referring to loop unrolling in specific, but code size in general. 07:20:54 fizzie: Which the human writing source code has impact on. 07:21:10 My mind went off on a slightly different context than, uh, conversation would suggest. 07:21:21 and I think the performance hit for fetching instructions is per cache line, so if you replace 1 byte of code with <32 bytes of faster code it might still pay off 07:22:10 * olsner does some handwaving and says something about caches 07:22:26 olsner: True, a cache line is effectively the minimum level of granularity for this purpose. 07:23:50 assuming the loop runs for long enough that it ends up worth evicting some other code from the cache and loading it from RAM later 07:24:50 olsner: Simply loading it evicts something else, doesn't it? 07:26:06 yes, and something always needs to be loaded... but if the code was "1 byte", there'd be 31 bytes left in that cache line that can be used for other things, and some reduction in eviction and loading 07:29:01 I wonder how you could measure the amount of instruction-cache misses that are caused by bloated optimized code 07:30:09 By measuring cache misses with and without various optimizations, and comparing the numbers? 07:31:23 yeah, but without recompiling everything :) 07:33:00 That's not much of a chore if you're serious about benchmarking. (Anyway, you can measure by Googling for someone who has already done it.) 07:36:26 (Sadly, first I hit found which compared miss rates with different GCC optimization levels was from 1995, that's not so very current.) 07:36:37 (I'll have to get going, I think.) 07:36:37 i prefer to answer all performance questions according to a 1970's model of compilers and computer architecture, with zero empirical data 07:37:37 I prefer to use plain old guessing 07:38:08 olsner: I prefer to call that the Stetson-Harrison method. 07:38:34 I'm guessing that's a fancy name for guessing then 07:38:55 also good fun is complaining about which C code will produce "more instructions" in a context where performance is completely irrelevant 07:38:59 and also without reading the disassembly 07:39:32 olsner: It's a name for "pulling numbers out of a hat", really. 07:39:46 Not related, but see editor's note and coauthor list: http://www.improbable.com/airchives/classical/articles/peanut_butter_rotation.html 07:39:51 sometimes you will find that introducing actual information into a discussion will quickly make it boring 07:41:14 it's still a stretch to say that modern CPUs are JIT compilers, though 07:41:17 as far as i know 07:41:35 JITs will compile an entire function or a trace at once, and apply nonlocal optimizations within that 07:41:42 yeah, it's a bit of an exaggeration 07:41:47 CPUs only look ahead some number of instructions 07:41:57 it's a reasonably fair exaggeration though 07:42:02 and counteracts some pervasive myths 07:42:39 man i kind of like programming on AVR where it actually just executes each instruction in order at a deterministic rate with no cache or anything 07:42:47 I guess it's more like an on-the-fly translation with a cache, peephole optimizations and some reordering of instructions 07:43:11 yeah 07:43:56 Was there some sort of new cookie legislation passed lately? 07:44:03 in the UK yeah 07:44:17 sites have to get your permission to set cookies 07:44:20 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, chocolate-chips now require a registration. 07:44:26 cause it's not like web browsers already let you control who can set cookies 07:44:32 cookie legislation made me think about that cake/biscuit lawsuit 07:44:33 (It's like owning a gun.) 07:44:44 Remind me what evil things cookies can do again. 07:45:33 this one claims >15.3% of time spent waiting for icache fills: http://ha.redhat.com/support/wpapers/redhat/OProfile/oprofile.pdf 07:46:17 that seems to be from 2002, so it was basically produced last year 07:47:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:47:45 hello 07:47:58 Ten years, one year: no difference. 07:48:05 -!- AnotherTest has left. 07:48:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:48:12 It's comparing GCC 2.95 and 3.1, that's very current indeed. 07:48:18 (What are they at now, 4.7?) 07:48:24 Yes 4.7 07:48:30 The Matrix was released a year ago in 1998, so last year is at least 14 years long 07:48:48 olsner: Also doesn't compare between optimilization levels. :/ 07:57:18 kmc: Back from Berkeley! 07:57:22 I'd forgotten how nice it was. 07:57:36 it is? 07:57:41 it's all right, I guess 07:57:54 maybe you should tell me why it's nice and I will hack my next trip to berkeley using this information 07:58:49 Maybe I just have low standards coming from (E)PA. 07:59:06 All I did was see part of a play and walk around. 07:59:36 Some people suggested I should spend 6-9 months at http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/icsi/ but I skippeded it. :\ :/ 08:00:14 (They have some sort of a collabomaration project at the university.) 08:00:33 collaboomerang 08:03:28 where did you walk around? 08:03:43 east bay is all right but it reminds me too much of los angeles 08:03:49 also athens reminded me of los angeles 08:04:05 Downtownish area. 08:04:07 perhaps my principal component for cities is "how much is it like los angeles" 08:04:16 I was in Los Angeles a long time ago. 08:04:26 I don't remember much. 08:04:57 Maybe I should go there sometime. 08:05:13 maybe you should go to helsinki instead 08:05:21 preferably tomorrow or wednesday 08:05:27 That's farther away. 08:05:37 true 08:05:42 I could be in Los Angeles tomorrow pretty easily if I wanted to. 08:05:55 one day you'll be able to take Supertrain to los angeles 08:05:55 I could probably also be in Helsinki within 24 hours if I really really wanted to. 08:06:13 "as your attorney i advise you to rent a very fast car with no top" 08:07:17 one day you'll be able to smoke pot and get gay married on supertrain 08:07:21 but no happy meals 08:07:29 One day you'll be able to take a Supertrain to Helsinki. 08:07:40 A supersonic, flying Supertrain. 08:07:43 from tallinn? i hope so!! 08:07:53 i proposed that railway here yesterday 08:08:18 Oh, you were proposing a superrailway? I thought it was just a regular railway. 08:08:24 Maybe supertrains go on regular railways. 08:08:45 it would be a Train à Grande Vitesse 08:08:46 * shachaf recalls that kmc cares more about train infrastructure than about trains themselves. 08:08:52 that's accurate 08:08:53 j #mosh 08:08:56 Hmm. 08:09:04 My secret is revealed! 08:09:12 kmc: you should come to canada and fix our rail system 08:09:15 supertrain of the short lived awful 1979 tv show did not run on regular railways 08:09:16 The... uh, if the channel-tunnel is the chunnel... the HellTunnel? Yeah, that sounds about right. So the helltunnel's been proposed a few times in a reasonably serious manner, also somewhat recently. (Not so seriously that they'd actually get around building it, though.) 08:09:39 but supertrain my idiosyncratic name for california high speed rail will run on pretty standard high speed rail lines 08:09:55 They went as far as to calculate some prices, came up with 1.1-1.6 billion euros in 1997. 08:09:57 which is to say overhead electrified standard gauge track, grade separated and with wide curves 08:10:03 kmc: By that day it seems pretty likely that I won't be living in the bay area anymore. 08:11:17 kmc: If I go to Helsinki by Wednesday maybe I could mean KeithW. 08:11:46 Probably going to Boston would be an easier way to do that. 08:12:12 * shachaf doesn't have anything in particular to say to KeithW, though. 08:12:38 coppro: is that more feasible than fixing the us rail system 08:12:40 I think there's a "fast train" kind of route being planned/under construction/something like that from Tallinn to Warsaw these days; that has sort of re-aroused interest in the Tallinn tunnel. 08:12:51 Rail Baltica, yes. 08:13:27 "Rail Baltica is one of the priority projects of the European Union: Trans-European Transport Networks (TEN-T). The project is supposed to link Finland, the Baltic States and Poland and also improve the connection between Central and Eastern Europe and Germany. It envisages a continuous rail link from Tallinn (Estonia), to Warsaw (Poland), going via Riga (Latvia) and Kaunas (Lithuania). It ... 08:13:33 ... will by-pass the Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia) and Hrodno (Belarus) where the two historic rail routes Poland-Lithuania have been going." 08:13:37 That thing. 08:13:50 (It'll just be ferries for the Helsinki-Tallinn part so far, but maybe one day!) 08:13:50 yeah 08:13:54 it might be freight-only :/ 08:14:31 Ferries are pretty good. 08:14:44 wow, baltic countries don't even use standard gauge 08:14:45 But kmc prefers railways to water. 08:14:49 they use russian gauge not surprisingly 08:14:54 i like ferries too 08:15:18 this trip has involved a fair number of ferries 08:15:39 WA has a bunch of ferries. 08:16:08 We had a Helsinki-Stockholm-Copenhagen-Amsterdam-and-so-on trip few summers ago, and it does take quite a long time to get the Helsinki-Stockholm-Copenhagen part done, mostly due to the slow boats. 08:16:35 Stockholm-Copenhagen trains were those very futuristically named "X2000" ones. 08:16:57 shachaf: I took a train on a boat once! 08:17:21 (At least in 1990 "2000" was presumably futuristic.) 08:17:40 København to Berlin train 08:18:01 Something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Woodf3a.jpg ? 08:18:10 kmc: Did you read _Three Men in a Boat_? 08:18:13 no 08:18:21 You should read that book! 08:18:33 that's a nice picture 08:18:33 It's good. 08:18:53 VR (the Finnish railway company) has deals called "BoatTrain", but I think it only means a discount for the train trip from wherever you happen to be to the harbour where the ships leave from. 08:19:09 It's from 1889 so you can get the text for free, too. 08:19:58 i got one of those deals for my Dublin → Slough trip 08:20:06 shockingly good deal 08:20:16 it was €52 for the ferry and british rail ticket together 08:20:24 compared to like £70 for the latter alone 08:20:34 http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/308 08:20:58 I think it's famous in Russia for some reason. 08:21:29 Our BoatTrains are just 50% off for the train ticket if you have a (regularly purchased) boat ticket. 08:22:52 gutenberg.org gives a 403 if i use wget 08:23:14 happily they serve a zip of the html version 08:23:20 but i still can't wget it >_< 08:23:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:23:54 That's funny, I think I wget'd a whole lot of Gutenberg (maybe a mirror?) back when doing some text analysis stuff. 08:24:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:24:08 well, did you lie about the user agent? ;) 08:24:42 No, I don't tihnk so. 08:24:46 http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Information_About_Robot_Access_to_our_Pages 08:25:12 Come to think of it, I think I used the rsync method described in the mirroring page. 08:25:39 Their robots.txt does say crawl-delay: 2 08:25:57 Anywy, I'm sure you can wget from the ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/ URLs. (Don't know if they generate any links there though.) 08:26:06 * shachaf is becoming increasingly frustrated. 08:26:09 That's probably not good. 08:26:18 frustrated with what? 08:26:51 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:27:06 Just general frustration. 08:27:39 "life" or something. 08:31:20 -!- liljuska has joined. 08:34:01 ah 08:34:10 i feel like that sometimes 08:44:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:48:17 -!- derdon has joined. 08:49:15 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:54:39 -!- itidus21 has joined. 08:59:23 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:01:03 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:03:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit). 09:03:29 shachaf: do you want my half-baked advice? 09:04:42 kmc: Sure! 09:10:04 i rode a train today. i had hot chips and a coffee, and i positioned myself to eavesdrop on an old man talking to a railway employee about a scheduled train not running due to vandalism 09:10:17 traveling and change of scenery 09:10:24 are both good for not being generally frustrated 09:10:34 well, in particular if you have no clear reason to be frustrated 09:10:44 if you're frustrated because of some significant problem in your life, that's different 09:11:07 That's probably good advice. 09:11:20 it's probably eventually correct 09:11:47 i also recommend psychedelic drugs for more or less the same reason 09:11:52 change of internal scenery, or something 09:11:58 not so much the visual, but metaphorically 09:12:21 itidus21: Hot Chip is a good band 09:12:24 itidus21: which train was not running? 09:12:28 hmm 09:12:30 the.... 09:12:52 3:52pm train from melbourne flinders street to pakenham 09:12:57 shachaf: do you have a job these days? do you like your job? 09:13:09 australia eh 09:13:17 yup 09:13:19 it's, like, winter there 09:13:22 how's that going 09:13:39 kmc: No job these days. 09:13:58 my psychologist encouraged me to get a jacket drycleaned 09:14:12 Perhaps I should get one. 09:14:38 yeah, therapy is pretty cool if it's free 09:14:48 itidus21, dry cleaning salesmen make poor psychologists. 09:15:25 perhaps 09:15:36 are you looking for a job? 09:15:42 well i was walking along in this jacket the other day and some woman in an SUV said get a job you bum 09:15:51 i like xkcd today 09:15:54 haha itidus21 09:16:18 its amazing the adventures that happen when you go out 09:17:08 kmc: Not actively but maybe I will soon. 09:17:31 ok 09:17:43 a friend of mine just quit his job 09:17:46 there was this guy who was begging for change with an elaborate story spoken quickly. he got $2 from me, and i saw two other guys hand him some kind of money eventually 09:17:46 as in today is his last day 09:18:21 he says the younger employees understand why he's doing it 09:18:28 and the older employees think he's totally crazy for quitting without another job lined up 09:18:40 itidus21, one of Jon Ronson's old Guardian columns has him being groomed by a conman for 2 hours at an airport for $60. 09:18:46 my friend is young and doesn't have kids and has savings and is a rails developer in SF 09:18:49 so i think he will do ok 09:18:50 He ended up giving it to him out of pity. 09:19:07 $30 an hour ain't bad! 09:19:18 wonder what the actual rate is, with downtime 09:19:58 in a rapid delivery he explained without pausing for a breath that he's not after cigarettes, that he needs $1.40 for a bus, something about having trouble with a flatmate, that if he sees me sometime he'll give me a few $ 09:21:03 then he walked off.. and i saw him approach 2 people before going inside the shopping center, then later coming out and approaching another and going back in 09:22:20 shopping centre is what they call a mall here i think 09:22:48 they might use both..... 09:23:52 Maybe I should do the university thing. 09:24:03 There are complications involved, of course. 09:25:32 there was also this girl busking with hoop dancing 09:25:42 shachaf: do you have a bachelor's degree already? 09:25:50 I don't think that counts as busking. 09:25:53 No. 09:26:14 i guess. she wasn't very talented either. but points for trying 09:26:30 Over here the buskers all play bagpipes. 09:26:31 hoop dancing is cool 09:26:32 It's horrible. 09:26:41 i gave her $5 09:26:43 i heard that busking licenses are graded by instrument 09:26:48 and that bagpipe license is the most expensive 09:27:11 in New York there are a lot of guys who breakdance on the floor of moving subway trains 09:27:13 Phantom_Hoover: is that for the tourists? 09:27:18 occasionally a rider gets kicked in the face 09:27:22 yeah... theres guys here busking with didgeridoos 09:27:29 in Boston they have this too except that it's just one particular guy who is everywhere 09:27:39 itidus21, presumably, because you'll never find anyone doing it except on Princes Street. 09:27:41 i saw some of them 09:27:55 there's a guy who plays bagpipes in FiDi in SF 09:27:59 i don't know if he's busking or what 09:28:41 He should probably pay passersby. 09:28:59 there was also a guy with an accordian if i recall 09:29:17 thats part of the fun of going to the city 09:29:25 in new york you also see people busking with some kind of traditional chinese string instrument 09:29:28 which sounds awful 09:29:42 ^accordion 09:29:54 kmc: Which kind? 09:30:00 Is it the two-string thing? 09:30:08 and people doing traditional chinese singing in the park, which also sounds awful 09:30:09 So my image of the cities of Australia is a load of empty streets crammed with buskers and conmen. 09:30:12 shachaf: maybe? 09:30:13 * shachaf tries to recall what that's called. 09:30:16 it's like an upright thing with a bow 09:30:25 Phantom_Hoover: ahh well the conman was in a suburb :P 09:30:35 Erhu, that's it. 09:30:45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhu 09:30:51 i havent actually ever been asked for money by a stranger in melbourne proper 09:30:55 maybe they just aren't very good 09:31:04 It's like a violin but half as good. 09:31:07 or maybe i'm secretly racist :( 09:31:17 Clearly the optimal instrument should have one string. 09:31:28 shachaf: yeah, i think it was that 09:31:44 food, bbl 09:31:45 kmc: I saw one played once and it seemed OK. 09:31:52 Then again, it was played by a violinist. 09:31:55 Phantom_Hoover: but yes... guys on street corners selling magazines that people only buy to support the people selling em 09:32:02 No, the optimal instrument is the zither. 09:32:19 and buskers.. and otherwise people sitting and eating.. or bustling down the street 09:32:20 the optimal instrument is the ondes Martenot 09:32:41 oh and trams! 09:32:42 The optimal instrument is the hyperbass flute. 09:33:04 whenever you want to cross the road in melbourne you gotta watch out for trams 09:33:43 We don't have trams in Edinburgh. 09:33:47 Though we're meant to. 09:34:00 it's a prominent part of the experience 09:34:01 you have to watch out for buses anyhere 09:34:03 anywhere* 09:34:11 and trams are like buses except that they move more predictably 09:34:16 though i guess they are quieter 09:34:29 kmc: but these trams they're really packed into a small area 09:34:37 yeah trams can be longer too 09:34:38 it's true 09:34:49 uh i mean the timing 09:34:59 humm 09:35:02 i rode a 6 car tram in budapest 09:35:08 longest in the world 09:35:13 ill have a look on googlemaps 09:35:51 going to go to lunch and then tallinn 09:35:52 ttyl 09:41:21 i guess it's that the tram infrastructure makes them quite prominent.. with the rails, and the sheltered seating 09:43:00 from WP "The largest cable system in the world, in the city of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, had at its peak 592 trams running on 74 kilometres of track." 09:43:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:44:00 hello 10:23:57 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:39:10 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:30:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:31:52 kmc: not really 11:31:58 you know what? Microsoft have some of the sanest terms of use and license agreements I've ever seen 11:31:58 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 11:32:10 except we aren't wuite ao allegic to government 11:32:19 my guess is, because they get sued so often they have to make absolutely sure there's nothing in there that might bring the whole agreement down 11:32:22 @messages 11:32:23 quintopia said 1d 12h 12m ago: I needed to know the "official" way of making colored text on mediawiki for Talk:BF_Joust_Strategies 11:33:05 itidus21: cable-pulled cars? 11:33:14 do they have those still? 11:35:21 ah not since 26 October 1940 11:35:49 SF is the only city to still run cable cars in normal traffic i think 11:35:50 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 11:54:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:55:44 -!- augur has joined. 11:56:42 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:56:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:00:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:00:27 http://patriciopalladino.com/blog/2012/08/09/non-alphanumeric-javascript.html 12:01:21 -!- boily has joined. 12:03:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:03:26 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:03:42 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:11:30 not sure if dead pixel or unusual diacritic mark 12:29:06 -!- augur has joined. 12:39:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:55:33 i wonder how secure my disk encryption passphrase should be 12:55:41 the one i have now is quite long and annoying to type 12:57:34 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 12:59:25 i'm mainly interested in keeping laptop thieves from being able to read my data 12:59:39 and expect that a random laptop thief will not try extremely hard 12:59:47 -!- boily has joined. 13:00:00 so i think it does not need to be very secure at all 13:02:31 there's no reason it shouldn't just be my login password 14:02:42 -!- lexande has joined. 14:11:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:39:22 -!- TodPunk has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- SimonRC has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- ssue has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 14:39:22 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 14:44:58 -!- TodPunk has joined. 14:44:58 -!- atehwa has joined. 14:44:58 -!- HackEgo has joined. 14:44:58 -!- EgoBot has joined. 14:44:58 -!- SimonRC has joined. 14:44:58 -!- ssue has joined. 14:44:58 -!- shachaf has joined. 14:44:58 -!- comex has joined. 14:50:14 -!- derdon has joined. 15:07:49 -!- canaima172423 has joined. 15:08:47 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:08:58 -!- augur has joined. 15:09:06 olle tienes residen evill 4 en psp 2 15:15:35 -!- canaima172423 has left. 15:19:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:19:50 olle olle, olle olle 15:20:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:20:12 esoteric = Español… oteric. 15:21:20 i suspect any word beginning with es is curious 15:22:15 That's just the establishment talking. 15:23:57 when i started googling for such words i encountered esne 15:24:01 Essentially yes. 15:24:07 which reminds me of a certain esolang 15:24:31 Googling? grep '^es' /usr/share/dict/american-english-huge 15:24:52 i don't have a grep 15:25:41 as for usr.. i suspect i have about 10 of them 15:25:44 all for me 15:26:04 with unusual names 15:27:06 the windows file hierarchy starts off good enough C:\Documents and Settings\ 15:27:16 and at about that point its all fucked up 15:28:09 Oh, Windows users. 15:28:12 They try so hard. 15:29:52 wtf is UpdatusUser 15:29:56 this doesn't look good 15:30:41 oh i get it now 15:30:51 i freaked out because i got my graphics card on my birthday 15:31:08 and it was therefore a folder created on my birthday 15:39:24 hello from Estonia 15:43:05 -!- augur has joined. 15:49:16 -!- elliott has joined. 15:49:29 Who do I usually bother for git help again? 15:49:35 #git 15:49:36 I think it was Deewiant. 15:49:38 kmc: No way! 15:49:40 That's uncool. 15:49:50 no, bother #git and then talk smack about them behind their backs here 15:49:54 that's the way 15:50:10 That's like ~2.5x as much effort though. 15:50:21 Maybe even 2.75. 15:50:24 ∼ 15:50:45 shachaf: I'm reading the thing you told me to read! 15:50:56 lexande also told me to read it (separately) 16:15:21 * kmc can sometimes provide git help, as well 16:18:07 Too bad, I solved it without the aid of anyone Finnish or called kmc! 16:18:16 I thought it impossible. 16:21:38 elliott, if you ever have any problems with git again, just remember I am not the person you want 16:21:42 By a long way 16:23:35 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:29:06 what was the question, out of curiosity 16:30:45 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:31:13 www.quora.com/Palo-Alto-CA/Why-are-there-so-many-questions-about-Palo-Alto-CA 16:32:30 amazing 16:32:52 kmc: the related questions are good too 16:32:54 also the question was 16:33:12 if i've merged something in a way that produces a merge commit and i oops'd and actually wanted it to be a rebasey merge so the merge commit was gone how can i do that 16:33:20 the answer is start over using pull --rebase this time and perform the merge by hand again 16:33:33 or use someone's shell script that trains this git rerere thing and i stopped reading at that point 16:34:46 yeah 16:35:16 i would just reset to the point before the merge, and then cherrypick my work from after that 16:35:20 which amounts to the same thing 16:36:38 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:37:02 i don't know what git rerere is 16:39:01 elliott: is kmc an honourary Finn? 16:39:32 Everyone in this channel who isn't from Hexham is a Finn. Not honorary or otherwise, just a Finn. 16:40:31 lexande: No. Someone is an honorary Finn, but I completely forget who. 16:40:56 lexande: maybe it's you??? 16:41:13 Stop! 16:41:16 OK, now continue. 16:41:38 MC Hammer's not so good first draft of his song 16:41:42 not me 16:42:09 Is it Fungot? 16:42:17 though I will be in Finland tomorrow 16:42:38 You are... American? 16:43:15 yes 16:43:42 "Stop!.... Continue!" is an Electric Six lyric 16:44:14 from "Improper Dancing" 16:44:37 kmc: By the way, why is make so bad? 16:44:48 i don't have an answer to that 16:45:15 :/ 16:45:18 are there better make replacements? 16:45:26 lexande: I quite like tup 16:45:30 good things are banned to start with 16:45:32 It isn't perfect, though. 16:45:37 thats why bad things always have the lead 16:45:39 http://gittup.org/tup/ 16:47:07 You know what annoys me? 16:47:27 On Facebook, it suggest articles. But to look at them, I have to let Yahoo post on my wall 16:47:56 or google the headline 16:48:18 Oh, that's a good idea 16:49:11 what does tup have to do with git? 16:50:01 It has nothing to do with git, but gittup has to do with both tup and git: http://gittup.org/gittup/ 16:50:09 TCP is not really working on this connection 16:50:47 lexande, the article was awful, why did I bother 16:50:48 I'll just quote the best bit for you: 16:50:50 "Yeah, I'm marf. Yeah, my computer is captainfalcon. Yeah, I just edited the spellcasting in nethack because I felt like it. Then I changed ls to print "Sup bro, way to list those files", because I like to be encouraged when I list things, and because I like it when people call me "bro"1. Then I re-compiled both and got a new initrd in like two seconds. Go ahead -- try to change the ls on your system to print out extra messages for no reason!2 Yo 16:50:51 u can't do it!! Unless of course you're running gittup.org. But if you're running gittup.org, why aren't you playing nethack or needlessly recompiling things just for fun? In fact, how are you reading this webpage?? It doesn't even come with a web browser." 16:51:39 -!- aloril has joined. 16:52:17 lockamee i'm zany and wacky 16:52:22 bacon ninja bros 16:52:39 i bet this person writes a lot of ruby 16:52:40 piffle 16:52:42 elliott: does the http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity490.html strategy work with tup? 16:52:51 gittup is cool and tup is cool and mike is cool and you are bitter 16:53:25 lexande: there is someone with the nick bonghitz in a channel i am in 16:53:26 maybe i should ask them 16:53:28 kmc, the thing elliott pasted didn't seem all that formulaic 16:53:43 elliott: i'm just taking the piss mate 16:53:52 (been traveling with british people for 3 weeks, this is how i talk now) 16:54:02 kmc thinks i'm british 16:54:03 i think all four of those claims are likely true 16:54:14 lexande: you are british when you are around actual british people 16:55:22 -!- madbr has joined. 16:56:44 speaking of ninja 16:56:49 i wonder how tup compares to ninja 16:56:54 ninja was inspired by tup 16:57:00 ok then 16:57:01 ninja is probably worse though 16:57:03 except for some use-cases 16:57:10 because the building-the-build-system thing is kind of a pain in practice 16:57:21 I have a patch in ninja because I wanted to use it to build Haskell code 16:57:23 so why did the ninja developer(s?) decide tup wasn't adequate 16:57:27 tup can't manage that right now 16:57:30 heh 16:57:32 because of the multiple output files 16:57:42 huh 16:57:48 multiple output files are not rare 16:57:55 well, it's not so much multiple output files as the kind of 16:57:57 latex and lex/yacc both come to mind 16:57:59 pseudo-separate compilation GHC has 16:58:08 where it's sort of separate compilation but not really 16:58:15 what's special about it? 16:58:17 kmc: anyway ninja was just intended to be incredibly fast and "trivial" I think 16:58:24 right 16:58:39 ninja wants you to specify the dependency graph in a very explicit form 16:58:40 despite this it still supports variables for no apparent reason 16:59:16 let me try and find the discussion on the tup list 16:59:20 gittup seems pretty awesome 17:00:17 why do you say ghc's separate compilation is 'pseudo' 17:00:21 kmc: here: https://groups.google.com/group/tup-users/browse_thread/thread/62eacaa9a22d9965/38468408c8b1aafb 17:00:28 that will probably explain it better than I could over IRC 17:00:33 but GHC does not have fully separate compilation 17:00:36 because there are dependencies on interface files 17:00:38 which is the whole issue 17:01:59 frankly the only reason I am not using tup for my current use case is because its output is quite ugly right now :p 17:02:12 (it overdoses a bit on the ANSI colour) 17:02:28 haha 17:02:35 pipe to cat, problem solved 17:02:49 i actually like its progress bars and some of the colour, it just overdoes it 17:02:50 (surely it doesn't print color codes when stdout isnotatty, right?) 17:02:54 it doesn't 17:02:56 afaik 17:02:59 I don't even know what it does when you pipe it to cat 17:03:13 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:03:58 is there a particular reason why you consider "don't need to have compiled dependencies first" to be fundamental to the idea of separate compilation? 17:04:27 that's more or less my definition of fully separate compilation :P 17:04:39 yeah but is there some particular reason to take that definition 17:04:57 it seems like a severe restriction 17:04:59 well, something like C is distinctly more "separate" than Haskell in terms of how you can compile it 17:05:07 it seems reasonable to have a term to distinguish the two 17:05:15 and i'd rather have GHC's approach compared to C or ML where you're expected to duplicate information in a header file 17:05:21 sure 17:05:27 not saying fully separate compilation is the right trade-off 17:05:31 ok 17:05:37 but, relevantly, it makes building quite a bit simpler 17:05:47 also you could write a haskell compiler which just parses imported sources and doesn't require the .hi 17:05:53 but it wouldn't ddo things like cross-module inlining 17:05:53 yes, you could 17:05:56 but it would be slow and bad 17:06:07 yeah 17:06:35 -!- madbr has left. 17:07:25 if only ghc --make supported parallel builds 17:08:01 Haskell and GHC are equal parts "advanced technology from the future" and "embarassingly behind the times" 17:08:04 it's pretty amusing 17:08:28 or you know, adjust the word "equal" to suit your attitude, i don't really care 17:08:29 kmc: the idea was to make a tool which wrapped around cabal 17:08:29 It's like how the Martians in War of the Worlds hadn't invented the wheel. 17:08:37 by telling it "ghc" was actually my-ninja-using-ghc 17:08:42 which would basically get the list of modules it gives 17:08:50 make a ninja build file for them that uses non --make ghc 17:08:52 and then run it 17:08:56 Phantom_Hoover: evolution hasn't invented the wheel, either! 17:08:59 there are no animals with wheels 17:09:01 but then I lost interest and gave up : ) 17:09:10 what about flagella 17:09:15 what about them 17:09:50 they're basically very broad-rimmed, narrow wheels 17:10:00 they roll along their axis? 17:10:11 um kmc have you ever heard of the flywheeel 17:10:13 but they can't spin indefinitely, right? 17:10:14 That's more like a propeller, aren't they? 17:10:25 like as many degrees as you like in one direction 17:10:28 Taneb, propellers are wheels with bits cut off. 17:10:40 kmc, nope, they have unrestricted rotation. 17:10:41 They're used for a different purpose 17:11:02 I defer you to my earlier remark on the flywheeel. 17:11:22 But answer this... 17:12:03 ...nah, I can't think of a question 17:12:15 propellers are wheels with bits put on 17:12:19 OR DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND 17:12:30 Phantom_Hoover: that's cool 17:12:33 oh hey 17:12:40 I just remembered make -jN is totally broken 17:12:42 awesome 17:12:52 Broken in your favour? 17:12:54 no 17:12:58 :( 17:13:29 kmc, it's also essentially a modified intercellular syringe. 17:13:33 monqy: maybe we should switch to aimeka 17:13:34 oops 17:13:35 aimake 17:14:18 whats that 17:14:24 aside from a build system i mean 17:14:31 ai-complete make, i presume 17:14:47 ai make 17:15:09 monqy: the build system ais523 wrote for nethack 4 17:15:13 just be careful that the ai makes don't rise up and start trying to unmake their human masters 17:15:14 the idea is that you just run it and it figures out everything itself 17:15:19 which means it works on nethack 4 17:15:22 and doesn't seem to work on anything else 17:15:39 beautiful 17:15:44 we should use it 17:15:49 also it's all one gigantic perl script 17:15:51 in one file 17:15:57 10:15:39 beautiful 17:15:57 10:15:43 we should use it 17:16:05 i think i tried to build 41qys-crawl with aimake once but it broke 17:16:07 so maybe we can't :( 17:17:49 Does the ai stand for ais523? 17:18:23 no it stands for AI 17:18:39 kmc: so if TCP isn't working are you using mosh 17:18:43 great advertising there 17:20:13 note to self: @printf '\e[5;37;40;1m $(CXX) \e[0;37;1m $<\e[0m\n' 17:21:57 Do you know what way to convert to/from NTSC composite signals? Should ImageMagick have a command to do such things? 17:24:07 yes 17:24:12 to the second one, I mean! 17:25:10 kmc: do you know any way to use make -jN and still get error messages that aren't lines and lines away from the compilation command 17:27:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:35:54 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:47:11 oh 17:47:13 hi 17:48:43 one does not simply hi into #esoteric 17:48:52 (hi) 17:49:02 what did i miss 17:49:33 any day now, Gregor will implement the new rule that anyone who says hi will be kickbanned 17:49:46 hi 17:49:57 otoh, he might still be too busy admiring his pants 17:50:00 hi copumpkin 17:50:02 Implementing the rule is easy, but I don't have ops. 17:50:07 And yes, I do have pants. 17:50:11 Glorious, glorious pants. 17:50:21 hi Gregor 17:50:26 hi Gregor's pants 17:50:38 * Gregor 's pants say, “Hello!” 17:50:50 oh my. talking pants 17:50:57 i have been bested 17:51:19 i mean, i knew your pants were loud, just not articulate 17:51:59 They're pretty amazing pants. 17:52:15 what's that? couldnt hear that over your pants 17:52:24 http://www.solidcolorpants.com/servlet/the-3669/Purple-Dress-Pants-Trousers/Detail <-- this shall be next. Isn't this the most amazing pants color EVER? 17:53:09 EGGPLANT PURPLE 17:53:29 They may advertise it as eggplant, but that ain't no eggplant. 17:53:47 the domain name suggests they might not be the most amazing color 17:54:02 the most amazing colors involve color combinations 17:54:05 aka pinstripes 17:54:12 * quintopia looks 17:54:39 quintopia: Although I would pay almost any price for pink and light blue angle-striped pants, I have something of a commitment to solid colors in my wardrobe as a whole. 17:54:46 * quintopia looksh thats eggplant 17:54:58 what 17:55:04 stupid up button :P 17:55:15 yes that's definitely eggplant 17:55:53 Although I'm sure there are eggplants available in that color, I would say it's a very poor choice of color name. 17:56:20 say what you like 17:56:39 no one will be able to hear you over EGGPLANTS FOR LEGS 17:56:49 I find this completely acceptable. 17:59:22 the new eggpants 2012! they burn through your retinas in 5 seconds flat! 17:59:44 hi boily 17:59:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:00:05 would you not say that that color is precisely aubergine boily? 18:00:34 hi ais523 bye ais523 18:01:08 quintopia: yeah, but I wouldn't be able to make bad puns as easily as with "eggplant". 18:01:29 besides, hi quintopia! 18:01:29 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:01:42 (I say hi! in defiance of any vague kickban threats!) 18:07:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:22 -!- nortti_ has joined. 18:11:01 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:11:59 -!- nortti has joined. 18:15:02 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: Found terminal). 18:19:13 boily: There's no threat since I don't have ops ;) 18:24:16 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:29:45 Gregor, didn't you have ops for a while. 18:36:03 Nope. 18:36:20 -!- nortti has joined. 18:40:11 What about that campaign to give you voice, I was fully behind that. 18:40:48 -!- ogrom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:41:06 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:44:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:46:37 lol 18:48:08 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:49:11 ais523, req. that Gregor be given voice. 18:50:01 Gregor hates ops in rooms where everyone is given ops. 18:51:52 I have an aversion to normalcy. 18:52:08 -!- oonbotti has joined. 18:52:30 So having voice would fix that! 18:52:50 I hae no aversion to being given +v, it just seems unlikely is all :) 18:56:46 *have 18:59:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:01:30 Luckily, my bright yellow pants are like an antinormalcy booster shot. 19:02:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:03:15 Gregor, never underestimate the power of DEMOCRACY 19:03:38 Taneb, will you join my campaign to give Gregor voice. 19:07:30 kmc: Which thing? 19:11:42 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 19:12:13 are we voting for something :D? 19:12:15 -!- oonbotti has joined. 19:12:25 I vote against, invariant of the subject! 19:15:21 Phantom_Hoover, what campaign 19:15:27 Why is Gregor mute? 19:15:47 GREGOR DRINK SOME HONEY WHISKEY MIXTURE! 19:16:04 Nonono, I mean the IRC mode. 19:16:17 Oh 19:16:30 Gregor, you can still drink some honey whiskey mixture, if you want to 19:16:34 The one that lets you talk if +m is on (+m is never on). 19:16:36 And it's legal where you are 19:16:54 Phantom_Hoover, sure, I'll support your campaign 19:17:09 voice also allows you to talk when banned 19:17:12 Yessss. 19:17:21 Or that might be only op 19:17:29 Idk, this calls for a test 19:17:30 Is this across all IRC or just this channel? 19:17:48 OK, I change the motion to: Gregor gets voice, banned. 19:18:45 … 19:19:09 Wow, Gregor is mute! 19:19:16 !!! 19:19:22 GREGOR DRINK THAT HONEY WHISKEY MIXTURE STAT 19:24:17 -!- ogrom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:28:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Connection reset by PO). 19:39:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:43:30 shachaf: Three Men in a Boat (To Say Nothing of the Dog) 19:43:50 elliott: redirect stdout, maybe? 19:44:05 elliott: yes, i'm using Mosh, and yes I know it's advertising ;) 19:47:02 kmc: No context in here, but did you read this story-thing by Ted Chiang? http://www.clarku.edu/welcome/placement/pdf/reading.pdf 19:47:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:47:37 will read 20:11:10 To read what one? 20:14:48 zzo38: Good point. 20:16:19 shachaf: have read now 20:16:21 cool 20:16:25 where did you find it? 20:17:13 In a book, http://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1931520720 20:18:15 cool 20:18:17 books are neat 20:19:43 the grpuabybtl gung znxrf fbzrbar va n ivqrb hahfhnyyl crefhnfvir is a plausible and frightening idea 20:20:09 frightening indeed 20:20:19 imo kdjfoiw owijer nfoaijg joiw owejf 20:20:32 amazing 20:20:55 oh, is it rot13 or somesuch popular crypto? 20:22:39 yes 20:22:44 rot13, standard for hiding spoilers 20:22:57 don't know what elliott is saying 20:23:48 i smashed my keyboard randomly 20:23:52 imo you should use rot14 instead 20:24:12 -!- liljuska has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:24:30 how come 20:25:05 to hide the spoilers from people who've learned to read rot13 by heart, of course 20:29:11 elliott: that's pretty good random smashy 20:29:17 in that i can't tell immediately what layout you use 20:31:53 Qwerty UK, I believe, although he was going to switch to Dvorak iirc 20:32:00 Looks like QWERTY to me. 20:32:17 but with above-average row switching for "random" smashing 20:32:29 kjio are contiguous, for instance. 20:32:46 hfawiulevghubaweyvgjuh 20:32:48 ok 20:32:50 Of course I don't know any layouts other than QWERTY. 20:33:35 Good to know that I have a /usr/games/rot13 20:33:42 * shachaf wonders why games go in /usr/games. 20:33:56 Because you don't put games in the bin. 20:34:25 rot13 is just tr 'a-z' 'n-za-m' 20:34:27 apparently you can see finland from the tallinn tv tower 20:34:50 traznzam 20:35:05 kmc: it's qwerty 20:35:08 i have no plans to switch to dvorak 20:35:09 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 20:35:21 kmc: oh, that's almost transam 20:35:23 ewofji oeorkf oisrjefj oijeoijewf jjfrkoa owjef 20:35:31 basically i just rest my two hands and dance them simultaneously 20:35:40 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq. 20:35:46 Hey, not registered 20:36:05 elliott: you should switch to colemak, then you can be smug at dvorak and qwerty users 20:36:09 atriq: /nick Gnaro 20:36:11 i.e. the vast vast majority of people 20:36:12 it's taneb in rot13 20:36:15 kmc: Deewiant uses Colemak! 20:36:20 it seems like a pretty good layout 20:36:22 but are they smug 20:36:27 elliott,, think about this one 20:36:31 Deewiant doesn't need to be smug 20:36:46 does colemak come installed on major OSes? 20:36:51 i think Ubuntu has it these days 20:37:01 every OS has US-Dvorak since longtime 20:37:02 * shachaf wonders if the vast majority of people use keyboards. 20:37:11 shachaf: maybe if you include mobile phones 20:37:20 shachaf, I'd imagine people who use computers tend to use keyboards 20:37:29 And most people I know use computers 20:37:37 most people you know != most people 20:37:41 Yes 20:37:47 the vast majority of people live in asia and make carpets, they have no need for keyboards 20:37:54 But we must start somewherwe 20:37:55 heh 20:38:03 that's not really true 20:38:06 but they still need fridges 20:38:14 poor people in asia still want to read news, watch porn, talk to friends on facebook like anyone else 20:38:22 especially in times of global warming 20:38:24 There are many more people in the world than there are IPv4 addresses. 20:38:31 they may do this at internet cafes or on mobile phones rather than on computers they own 20:38:35 I'd argue that touch keyboards don't count as keyboards 20:38:53 ironically, it's impossible to touch type on a touch keyboard 20:39:52 i found Pizza Americana in Tallinn 20:39:59 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:40:44 AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE 20:41:01 do you have specific knowledge or are you just going from the name? ;) 20:41:10 it would amuse me to eat at an america-themed restaurant while in foreign 20:41:27 I am one of the guys that doesn't want to watch porn and talk to friends on facebook like anyone else. 20:41:40 Basically, avoid eating your own country's cuisine while abroad 20:41:59 Hmm 20:42:03 you don't want to watch porn? 20:42:04 atriq isn't a bad nick 20:42:13 well most foods invented in America are nominally part of someone else's cuisine 20:42:20 like pizza and orange chicken 20:42:36 hagb4rd: That is correct. 20:42:54 but you still have balls, don't you? 20:42:54 hagb4rd, neither do I, but for probably different reasons 20:42:54 i don't think there's an idea of "traditional American food" like the idea of "traditional Latvian food" 20:42:59 unless you mean native american, of course :) 20:43:13 I'm a raging, flamboyant asexual 20:43:19 polenta! 20:43:31 * kmc wasn't sure whether the balls comment was about zzo38 or about food 20:44:12 it's said that the most authentically British dish is chicken tikka masala 20:44:20 O yes, I have golf balls, pokeballs, and maybe some others which I have not found recently and forgot about. 20:44:32 olsner, polenta is not actually food, it's a construction material that's categorised as food due to EU law. 20:44:41 we went to a british irish-american pub in croatia which serves dutch beer and thai curry 20:45:07 zzo38: but who's got the biggest balls of them all? 20:45:20 kmc: that sounds nice 20:45:36 i guess the one who is not watching porn in the internet 20:45:51 there is a paradox of authenticity 20:46:04 when traveling do you go for the restaurant serving "traditional authentic cuisine" to tourists 20:46:08 kmc: You, isn't it? 20:46:14 or do you find the place where locals eat, which probably serves kebab and pizza 20:46:27 (I don't actually know, I just guess) 20:46:30 i live in boston and i almost never eat seafood 20:46:37 zzo38: my balls are normal size, as far as i know 20:46:58 kmc, I live in Hexham and rarely eat leather or chipboard 20:47:10 haha 20:47:13 maybe you should try! 20:47:32 Actually, Hexham has a greek restaurant 20:47:39 I live in California and rarely eat oranges. 20:47:50 atriq: wow! it really does have everything 20:47:51 and you rarely smoke marijuana, california's #1 cash crop 20:47:54 Are oranges the state food of CA? 20:48:05 olsner, except a... 20:48:07 burritos and pot brownies 20:48:10 CLIMBING WALL 20:48:15 dude, i could make, like, a... pot burrito 20:48:26 in baker, they have excellent seafood 20:48:53 * Phantom_Hoover realises atriq is Taneb after briefly entertaining the possibility of a third Hexhammer in the channel. 20:49:10 The friend I was visiting a friend yesterday seems to enjoy California's #1 cash crop. 20:49:12 Phantom_Hoover, "atriq" is rot13 for ngevd 20:49:31 oh, is taneb ngevd? 20:49:31 You can buy Scotland's national food in Edinburgh, although I've never heard of anyone actually eating it. 20:49:35 olsner, yes 20:49:38 deep fried mars bars? 20:49:42 Yes. 20:49:42 A triqery! 20:49:49 olsner, I have been for ages 20:49:53 You can get deep-fried haggis, too. 20:49:55 I believe Gregor coined Ngevd 20:49:57 natch 20:50:07 what happens about half the time anyone here changes nicks is that one person disappears forever and some new person appears 20:50:31 Based on my initials N. G. v D., the G standing for George after my great grandfather George Elliott Moscrop 20:50:32 seafood is expensive and not tasty enough to justify the expense, i feel 20:51:06 Your great grandfather is named after elliott? 20:51:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 20:51:17 shachaf, someone in the elliott clan 20:51:32 Actually he got his middle name from his grandmother 20:51:47 (seriously) 20:51:56 The nick "Ngevd" vaguely reminded me of a desert, which I suppose was not the intention. 20:52:05 No 20:52:06 It was not 20:52:41 My great-great-great grandmother (in two ways! oh no!) was called Jane Elliott 20:53:00 the great hexham tradition of incest 20:53:20 it is why elliott is a stunted little midget and ngevd has a stupid moustache 20:53:22 Actually, when this incest happened my ancestors lived in Newcastle 20:53:36 they went to hexham for the incest 20:53:45 Newcastle-upon-Thyme 20:54:15 I think the best thing to do to avoid incest is to meet your cousins before adulthood 20:54:15 hichaf 20:54:24 heegan 20:54:24 shachaf: you should open a dispensary in the Mission and serve pot burritos 20:54:57 atriq, is that not normal 20:55:19 kmc: Surely that already exists in SF somewhere. 20:55:22 atriq: are you talking about the aversion to having sex with people you've grown up with? 20:55:28 i think that doesn't work unless you live together all the time 20:55:34 Also, to not change your children's religion away from that which is every other close relative, shortly before dying 20:55:40 this was a problem for the kibbutzim though 20:55:47 the ones with collective child-raising 20:56:17 kmc, meeting before adulthood helps 20:56:37 what would you know, you're asexual! 20:56:46 Not aromantic! 20:56:51 anamorous 20:56:55 I'm not sure what the term us 20:56:57 *is 20:57:17 yeah but it doesn't count as incest then! 20:57:21 http://www.thegreencross.org/ -- this whole business is more streamlined and convenient than I expected. 20:57:37 Phantom_Hoover, there are at least two cases of incest in my ancestry 20:57:42 I'm more inbred than Caligula 20:57:57 atriq: I think "aromantic" is the standard terminology?? 20:58:01 (not actually much of an achievement) 20:58:02 debatable, it's more complicated than that 20:58:03 elliott, hmm 20:58:13 Not to be confused with "aromatic". 20:58:15 Phantom_Hoover, Caligula wasn't actually inbred 20:58:25 shachaf: Well, atriq *is* smelly. 20:58:28 Well there is that. 20:58:48 elliott: Have you met atriq? 20:58:50 matriq 20:58:53 metriq? 20:58:54 But also it's quite possible to be more inbred than, say, the child of siblings. 20:59:04 mætriq 20:59:19 shachaf, I have not mated with elliott 20:59:27 that's good to know 20:59:28 See the family tree of Charles II of Spain, or that of Cleopatra, although that's not so much a tree as a column. 20:59:29 take it to #esoteric-orgy 20:59:55 IT'S ALL MINE AHAHAHAHAHA 21:00:01 shachaf: nice 21:00:03 kmc: apparently i am not invited to that channel 21:01:08 kmc: There should be a channel where you give free half-baked advice to anyone who asks. 21:01:22 #iama-kmc-ama 21:01:44 I guess this channel works for that purpose, though. 21:01:53 kmc, incest: pro or against. 21:02:18 uh 21:02:31 phantom_hoover: Haven’t you noticed that both sides of an issue are always “pro”? 21:02:33 half-"baked" eh 21:02:35 i don't think incestual relations between consenting adults should be illegal 21:02:35 get it kmc 21:02:38 but it's still fucking creepy 21:02:39 Pro-incest vs. pro-childlove 21:02:47 whoops, brainfart 21:03:05 i don't think kmc got it 21:03:13 got what 21:03:20 half-"baked" eh 21:03:20 elliott made a joke 21:03:21 i'm always not getting things 21:03:21 elliott: Oh, was that what kmc meant? 21:03:30 shachaf: most cities have marijuana delivery 21:03:33 just no nice webpage for it 21:03:35 kmc, turning literally any reference to incest into an annoying Lannister joke: pro or pro? 21:03:36 kmc: the joke is "baked" 21:03:38 are you laughing 21:03:41 no 21:03:41 Pro-childlove vs. pro-innocence 21:03:49 kmc: hmm 21:03:51 kmc: try correcting that 21:03:52 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/08/10 21:04:03 pro-gun vs. anti-penis 21:04:49 kmc, is it just me or has there been a very marked drop in PA's quality over the past... month? 21:04:52 monqy: it would be bad to have to prefix every entry in makefile.obj with $(OBJDIR)/ right 21:05:02 elliott: is it avoidable 21:05:18 is it cleanly avoidable 21:05:19 A voidable warranty 21:05:23 does avoiding it make it better 21:05:50 monqy: yes; no; idk 21:05:51 Phantom_Hoover: i would say more than a month 21:05:57 it's been kinda meh for a while now 21:06:03 but still better than most webcomics for sure 21:06:06 at least most i've seen 21:06:08 i like clean ! 21:06:16 the art is still top-notch 21:06:21 Yeah, but it's like it went from "kind of meh" to "really, really meh" very quickly. 21:06:26 hm maybe 21:06:29 can you pinpoint the change? 21:06:30 what's a most webcomics? don't answer that. 21:06:57 deep question with monqy 21:07:03 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/07/27 maybe? 21:07:07 What's the Best Web Comic? 21:07:07 elliott why are there so many elliotts in haskell 21:07:10 maybe if i were 4 years older i would rage against penny-arcade instead of xkcd 21:07:19 as far as something everyone likes and quotes and references but isn't actually that good 21:07:30 kmc: I don't like or quote it. 21:07:30 The jokes from then have all been kind of "here's a silly thing, we have made a silly thing and this is funny". 21:07:52 yeah 21:07:55 the startling realisation when you realise that penny arcade wasn't really ever very funny 21:08:03 *startling moment? who knows. who knows. 21:08:04 well some of those are references to video games you probably haven't played 21:08:05 as always 21:08:07 but yeah 21:08:08 I don't particularly dislike it either, it just never seemed to be worth starting to read. 21:08:44 nah i think it was very funny for a while 21:08:48 still think so 21:09:08 xkcd was also very good but not for very long 21:09:15 how good is a very 21:09:17 don't answer that 21:09:25 monqy: very good 21:09:27 i think PA did a better job of evolving out of the initial joke format 21:09:27 xkcd was pretty good for longer than people give it credit for 21:09:28 "oops" 21:09:48 elliott: Man, those spider comics. 21:10:00 elliott, so you'd put the decay after the 400-500 mark most would? 21:10:41 Phantom_Hoover: maintaining my idealised self-image requires that i do not consider questions like that worth answering 21:10:44 xkcd was a great comic for a little while 21:11:08 then it was an ok comic which was still regarded as the pinnacle of nerd culture 21:11:24 Ooh http://madebyevan.com/webgl-water/ 21:12:00 if there's one thing i love, it's giving untrusted javascript direct access to the most complicated kernel subsystem and most complicated peripheral device in my computer 21:12:04 I'm really starting to warm to Cyanide and Happiness 21:12:06 ion, wow, it's like I have a real bucket of water sitting on my desk. 21:12:17 atriq: it's funny because awful things happen to people 21:12:23 cyanide and happiness is an awful awful comic 21:12:45 I support elliott's view based on vague sycophancy! 21:13:07 i think i used to like it 21:13:08 yeah it's pretty f. bad 21:13:09 when i was a worse person 21:13:32 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you could use scientomantic resonancimation to make a decent wave in that thing. 21:13:32 TWIST: that was 30 seconds ago 21:13:44 good joke 21:13:55 I might have liked it when I was a worse person but unfortunately I was otherwise engaged in being a bad person. 21:14:00 the only long-running comic i can say for sure has not suffered a quality drop is... 21:14:03 jerkcity 21:14:12 thank you jerkcity 21:14:19 omg you can move the ball 21:14:20 #1 reliable webcomic lifelong award 21:14:20 thirkcity 21:14:23 and it perturbs the surface 21:14:25 aha 21:14:25 Has Cyanide and Happiness suffered a quality drop? 21:14:29 How can you drop from the bottom? 21:14:37 through the floor 21:15:02 when there is trap set up for you in every corner of this town 21:15:09 and so you learn the only way to go is... underground 21:15:21 It's slightly less dead baby now? 21:15:26 Slightly 21:15:44 slightly less dead baby 21:15:45 now the baby is only half dead 21:15:50 i am convinced, sounds great 21:15:55 Mostly dead is slightly alive, I hear. 21:15:59 basing a regular comic on offensive / "shock" humor is a really dubious decision 21:16:14 because, while the best examples of such humor are fucking hilarious, it kinda raises the bar for the minimum quality joke you can get away with 21:16:25 what if there was a comic but instead of being a comic it just crawled shock sites and pulled from them 21:16:28 i'm sure the top 20 C&H strips of all time are fucking hilarious 21:16:28 i am not really sure how jerkcity could drop in quality 21:16:30 "one million hits" 21:16:36 since it is basically based entirely around not having any 21:16:36 elliott: yeah exactly 21:16:43 that's how i can say for sure 21:16:46 "C&H" :-( 21:16:59 cyanide and hobbsiness 21:17:06 yeah that's unfortunate 21:18:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:18:56 You could argue that Homestuck hasn't dropped in quality but it's not gag-a-day, it's ultra-subjective, and it has large-scale ups and downs which do alter its entertainment value. 21:20:15 ion, omfg it has a buoyancy sim 21:27:17 i like what-if.xkcd.com 21:27:19 for what it's worth 21:27:41 Yeah, it's great. 21:28:06 It's essentially Randall Munroe's Picto-Blog as xkcdsucks described ages ago. 21:28:24 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 21:29:11 Hey, elliott's gone 21:29:22 Now it is time to make the important decision 21:29:31 How much do I like the name "atriq"? 21:29:42 Just register it anyway. 21:29:46 motorola atriq 4g 21:29:55 Phantom_Hoover, I already have 21:30:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Prince_Charles. 21:30:30 I've still got ettioll registered 21:30:51 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 21:30:55 And noqmy 21:30:59 And RocketKSquirrel 21:31:06 I *definitely* recall having Prince_Charles registered. 21:31:09 -!- Prince_Charles has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 21:31:55 oh, who was rocketsquirrel? 21:32:03 Aww, they expire with disuse. 21:32:07 olsner, Gregor? 21:32:34 -!- Gregor has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel. 21:33:00 I would also have Vonlebio if it wasn't my black ops nick. 21:34:32 Aww, they expire with disuse. <-- they gave several weeks warning last they did it 21:35:26 *+time 21:41:57 I only got Gregor because it expired with disuse ^^ 21:42:47 Fair point, it wouldn't really be fair if I locked Prince Charles out of a nick that I never even use. 21:44:12 he probably goes as hrhpc or something 21:45:14 HRHP_Chuckie 21:45:28 What's a polynomial of the form (x^n - 1)/(x - 1) called? 21:45:46 tswett: Annoying to differentiate. 21:45:47 hi, polynomial of the form (x^n - 1)/(x - 1) 21:45:57 RocketJSquirrel: no, quite easy actually 21:46:31 i cannot recall any name for it, though 21:46:42 tswett: When n is 1, it's called "1". 21:46:45 It's called "fuck you STEP organisers for expecting me to factorise every polynomial of degree 3 or less in my head". 21:46:54 geometric sum perhaps? 21:47:53 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:48:53 geometric series fits sort of 21:49:09 except some may consider it implicitly infinite 21:49:27 A polynomial which looks easier to factorise than it i-- wait it's totally one of the easy to factorise ones. 21:49:41 Phantom_Hoover: duh 21:49:54 Here we go. It's called an "all one polynomial", or AOP. 21:49:58 Phantom_Hoover tries to factor every polynomial he sees. 21:50:02 He's got factor eyes. 21:50:10 Is x^n - 1 actually easy to factor, in general? 21:50:29 I thought they were called cyclotomic polynomials. But they're not. 21:50:46 I'm pretty sure (x-1) is always a factor. 21:50:53 It is. 21:51:06 WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT 21:51:33 If n is composite, it's easy to factor further. x^3 + x^2 + x + 1 = (x^2 + 1) (x + 1). 21:51:54 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:52:32 Hm. I'm pretty sure x^n - 1 factors into cyclotomic polynomials, and no further. 21:53:14 Does BZFlag count as an FPS? 21:54:02 tswett: i'm not quite sure if the cyclotomic polynomials are always irreducible? 21:54:04 If it's got a first-person perspective, and you can shoot from it, then I think so. 21:54:26 oh gauss has proved that 21:54:50 tswett, you can't look up or down. Also, you're a tank. But yes. 21:55:29 tswett, wait, is Elite an FPS then? 21:55:36 you can't look up or down in doom 21:55:39 Or FreeSpace 2? 21:55:45 Or FlightGear? 21:56:11 (There are a couple of planes with working guns for FG.) 21:59:26 tswett: wp's cyclotomic polynomial article has a pretty simple way of calculating the cyclotomic polynomials which also factors x^n - 1 in the process 22:00:00 uses that x^n - 1 is the product of the d'th cyclotomic polynomial for d a factor of n 22:00:12 *polynomials 22:00:23 shachaf: a bunch of the original ksplice people are quitting ksploracle 22:00:29 this is... not surprising 22:02:53 18:29:45: Gregor, didn't you have ops for a while. 22:02:53 18:36:03: Nope. 22:03:06 actually he did, for about a day or so 22:03:11 wut? 22:03:41 it was only +o ops though, not chanserv access 22:06:32 I don't remember this >_> 22:06:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 22:08:04 apparently you can see finland from the tallinn tv tower <-- now i'm imagining an estonian sarah palin 22:09:33 X-D 22:10:06 I love that people barely remember the fact that Palin never said that :) 22:10:29 poor michael, demoted to second craziest palin 22:11:45 RocketJSquirrel: larger than life people don't get to determine their own life facts 22:11:57 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:12:04 Heheh 22:12:27 Speaking of, I bought three new pairs of colorpants. 22:15:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:16:06 What color? 22:16:22 -!- nooga has joined. 22:18:07 zzo38: Orange, light blue and “eggplant” purple. 22:19:21 Phantom_Hoover, "atriq" is rot13 for ngevd <-- darn i got fooled by the at -> ta switch and thought it would be rot 19 or something for taneb. wait that doesn't work for t -> a either... 22:20:18 i assume even RocketJSquirrel doesn't want to go for the green lime ones. 22:20:47 oerjan: They were on my list 'til I saw the “eggplant” ones. 22:20:53 But they were last on said list. 22:21:03 (Hence why they got bumped) 22:21:50 food -> 22:22:49 kmc: Did some vesting thing just end or something? 22:24:10 "Oracle Buys Ksplice", "Jul 21 2011" 22:24:35 yeah some of them got some money after 1 year 22:25:03 So now there are a bunch of free-floating kspliceurs. 22:25:08 others are leaving because their friends are, i imagine 22:25:13 there is a coordination problem 22:29:01 outvesting? 22:30:55 -_- 22:31:14 yay feedback 22:34:33 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:40:43 -!- david_werecat has joined. 22:45:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:48:06 oh my god 22:48:12 -!- augur has joined. 22:48:21 http://www.whatdomothseat.info/ 22:49:01 ? 22:49:31 i'm sorry how are you not realising the wonder here 22:51:26 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:53:16 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/project-giana/project-giana 22:54:11 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 22:54:35 * shachaf swirefl### 22:55:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:55:45 -!- augur has joined. 22:55:51 "So in short, what do moths eat? They eat anything that can dissolve in water." 22:55:56 That sounds wrong. 22:55:58 Phantom_Hoover: i note how the sidebar has several other similar sites 22:56:10 exactly 22:56:22 it's a fucking network 22:56:43 "Some images taken from Wikipedia under GNU" 22:57:37 "under GNU" 22:57:42 That's how free licenses work, right? "You are free to distribute this work, as long as you mention a couple of free-works projects with prepositions before them." 22:58:28 one nation, under GNU 22:59:48 "under GNU" surely refers to "Among the hunting trophies on the wall above my bed / Stuffed and mounted, was a face I thought I knew" 23:00:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:00:19 Oh wow, someone else here knows F+S? 23:00:31 (Agnother gnu!) 23:00:56 I think F+S are pretty famous. 23:01:06 More or less famous than Lehrer? 23:01:47 I don't know. 23:07:29 -!- david_werecat has joined. 23:07:51 gnice 23:08:15 nor am I in the least like that dreadful hartebeest 23:14:25 -!- david_werecat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:14:46 -!- david_werecat has joined. 23:17:07 what girl genius is still not updated 23:21:06 -!- augur has joined. 23:22:14 i recall it used to be up shortly after 05:00 UTC, but lately it seems to update at an irregular time 23:22:39 er 04:00 UTC 23:25:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:29:23 -!- augur_ has joined. 23:37:03 -!- stanley has left ("Leaving"). 23:42:22 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:48:37 did google's favicon just change? 23:48:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:50:00 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: No route to host). 23:50:37 -!- augur has joined.